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If you have a 2002 Amtrak Travel Planner, turn to page 58-59.
In the large caption that shows the inside of a dining car, look at the guy in the green shirt, right behind the waiter.
THAT'S BILL MURRAY!!! GOTTA BE!
And the woman in the lower right hand corner--only her face is visible--she looks a lot like Halle Berry, but I don't think it's her.
But the other guy, I SWEAR it's Bill Murray!
Is the 2002 Planner the new one? When did they come out with it?
I guess toward the end of last year - I got mine about a week ago at the Amtrak office in Newark Penn Station. Funnily enough, I always seem to get the "last one" ...
Today we examine "cost effective" measures.
I was originally planning to make this one piece, but being that it is rather lengthy, we’re going to make it a multi-part work.
Like all other facets of business and industry, railroads are always looking to cut costs and get far more out of far less. This is what is commonly referred to as improving productivity. Those people who lose their jobs over these decisions call such measures looting and raiding or raping and pillaging. I have also heard it called other names that I probably shouldn’t use here. It seems that every time wholesale cost effective measures come down the pipe, somebody loses their job. Those that stay on get to do two or three times the work they performed previously, usually for the same money. And they often wonder if they will be the part of the next chapter of cost effectiveness.
With the elimination of human beings in some positions, studies are made to determine how much money whacking a job or two, maybe three or more will save. They don’t calculate all the tangibles though. At no time do they measure the abstract. That would include such items as to what is beyond the obvious initial up front savings; what are the hidden, long term costs that arise from such decisions? In many cases, the short-term gain results in long term pain. And oftentimes productivity is actually reduced.
Some cost-effective decisions don’t involve shedding the company of skilled and important employees, but not many. Some of these cost-effective measures involve eliminating unnecessary expenses such as no longer spending money to provide the help with small conveniences like coffee, meals on the road, needed and required items such as office supplies and the like. It may involve turning off the lights at night, the heat in the winter or air conditioning in the summer.
We’re going to look at both types of cost-effective measures and their long-term effects. We’ll get to see just how much money was saved and how much more was spent to save all that dough. In other words, a complete and thorough lesson in stumbling over $100 bills to pick up pennies.
We’ll start this lesson in economics with a variety of money saving measures instituted at the MoPac. We step back in time to 1982 during the throws of the great recession (or depression for many) of the early Reagan years. Out on the CHTT railroad (a MoPac subsidiary) in Chicago Heights, most of the jobs went to work at the CHTT Roundhouse. It was a small facility with a small office attached and crews went on and off duty there.
Somehow, somewhere, it was decided that the company could save oodles of money if they didn’t have to keep all those blasted mercury vapor lights that illuminated the parking lot and building entrance lit whenever it got dark. So the directive was made, the light timers, photocells or whatever it was that magically made all those lights illuminate at dusk were deactivated.
About two or three nights later while crossing the rut filled and junk strewn parking lot, a Conductor tripped over a piece of scrap track material. He twisted and bent at a weird angle before falling. He sustained a serious personal injury and required a hospital stay and surgery. This tumble lead to a considerable period of recovery, rehab and recuperation. The financial settlement made between him and the company clearly eradicated any trace of financial savings the company hoped to achieve. And needless to say, almost immediately thereafter, the lights were once again illuminated at dusk.
That same winter, it was decided to furlough virtually, every possible Maintenance of Way employee there was to save money. While normally when the construction season ended many of them were cut off anyway, this year they dug deeper and cut further. The result was nobody to spread salt and sand on the ice and snow that accumulated all over. Did I mention there was also no sand or salt to be found to spread either?
We had six Trainmen within about a one-week period slip and fall winding up with broken bones and missing considerable work. They all made hefty financial settlements, as the company was clearly negligent in providing safe working conditions. In one case, two people about eight hours apart slipped and fell on the exact same spot that was nothing but glare ice.
In the case of the second episode, I was the Engineer working the job. The Conductor got on the radio and reported the unsafe condition in front of the Nine-Yard shanty where both he and the field man were required to perform some of their duties. His words were something to the effect of "We need some salt or sand here before somebody falls and gets hurt. It is all ice here with no safe place to walk."
Needless to say, nothing was done about this, as there was nobody to bring out the salt or sand. A couple of hours later, the field man slipped and fell seriously injuring his knee. To make a bad situation worse, instead of calling the paramedics, somebody decided to save another buck and a Trainmaster took this guy to the hospital in the company Bronco instead. I was later told by the injured Trainman the doctor told him even more damage was done to his knee when placing him into the Bronco and transporting him as it was not properly immobilized.
Can you say big six-figure settlement?
Cabooses were eliminated in the 80’s.I am not about to try to present evidence that they need to be brought back because there isn’t the need for them on most trains with a Conductor and Engineer only. However, there are situations that do require them and collective bargaining agreements mandate them under certain circumstances. Most of these circumstances involve long back-up movements.
Contrary to what some officials think in this country, it is not safe to hang on the side of a car for several miles while shoving the train, especially at low speeds. Many rail cars are really not equipped for hanging on for these distances. You are required to position yourself in an unnatural position and do so while attempting to maintain radio contact with the Engineer. And then there are some Engineers whose train handling techniques are not the best and they may "crack the whip" from time to time. This means the Trainman riding the car has to be ever more mindful of this and maintain an even tighter grip to avoid injury. Of course this means that he or she may wind up getting smacked up against the car itself under a rapid change in slack as opposed to getting knocked off the side.
While I strive to give these people the best ride possible, sometimes things happen that are out of my control. Being that I grew up in the era of cabooses, I still remember my techniques for handling trains with them so as not to kill anybody back there. However, things have a way of going haywire.
One Conductor I worked with on one railroad was told point blank by a company official that it is safe to hang on the side of a car over nuemrous road crossings and for a distance of well over two miles at 10 mph or less. The Conductor invited this guy to join him for the ride to prove this fact. The official balked claiming this would be a violation of the Trainman’s contract. Hmm, since when did they become so concerned about violating the collective bargaining agreements?
Oftentimes, a company official may instruct a crewmember to ride a shove like this in direct violation of the collective bargaining agreement. Not only is this less than optimum safety, it can be expensive for the company. The crewmember will make a penalty claim for such and whenever it is resolved, get a chunk of money for following such instructions. What was saved here? We are not allowed to refuse to comply with any instructions given by a company official even when it violates our collective bargaining agreements. To do so would have us insubordinate and subject to dismissal.
On the CNIC, we have a coal train we interchange to the Norfolk Southern at Kankakee. The connection is backwards, so we have to run around the train first, and then pull it around onto the NS and vice versa when bringing it back. This is a very time consuming method and oftentimes winds up taking several hours to affect as there are other trains in the equation. In some situations, we sit for an extended period of time owing to either traffic on our line or on the NS. On more than one occasion, either the CNIC Chicago South and NS (and Conrail prior to July 1999) Kankakee Dispatcher (or both) has told us they could handle us right away if we shove the train over, but if we have to run around it first, it may take awhile. In this case, we get to sit for awhile outside of town.
If there were a caboose on the train, the Conductor would have a safe platform on which to ride and maintain a secure hold. He would also have an emergency brake valve at his command; a caboose whistle to sound at the road crossings and the potential for a brightly displayed headlight. Some cabooses were equipped with a spotlight that acted as a headlight for back up moves at night. MoPac and BN are two railroads that come to mind with this handy feature. Lots of illumination and safety features at hand.
The caboose doesn’t even have to be fancy. All they need is a good platform with the emergency valve and whistle. There could easily be an axle generator to provide power for the spotlight. Or, a rechargeable lantern with a bright beam could be used. The need for a heater, toilet, running water and all the other amenities found on cabooses of the past could be eliminated. The end of train telemetry could be readily mounted on the drawbar or knuckle just like any other car.
CSX delivers to the CNIC pretty much on a daily basis at Wildwood in Chicago. They pull up the hill through the connection from their main line after shoving the train out of Barr Yard and east of the connection switch. When they pull their train from us, they shove back down the hill through the connection and east on one of the main tracks to clear this connection before heading west back to Barr. They used to use a caboose for the back up move, but no longer. Now they use a locomotive. Normally it is a GP15 or MP15 model, but a locomotive just the same.
There could be an argument in favor of the locomotive that it has a whistle, bell, headlight, brake valve, seats and heat. It actually might make the shoving movements safer than a caboose. Or it might be somebody decided to rid them of another caboose. CSX has numerous cabooses they rebuilt for use in local and transfer service and used one of them on this job (Y122) for years. These cabooses had heat, an emergency valve, a whistle and the potential for a light. Now though, it is the locomotive. In effect, they have replaced a $50,000 caboose with a $225,000 locomotive that is consuming fuel at the rate of about 3 gallons per hour while portraying a caboose.
As cabooses have been eliminated, a new series of problems developed. Sometimes switches have to be restored to normal after crossing over from one track to another. On a long train this means a long walk to the head end. In some instances, it also means blocking a road crossing or two for an extended period of time.
Another situation is having to inspect a train for defects when stopped by a detector, having to make repairs to a car enroute, set it out when not able to remedy the problem or cutting a crossing when stopped for an extended period of time. The crossing thing can really be a problem. After putting the train back together, the Conductor or Brakeman then has to walk all the way back up to the engines. Depending upon the situation, this may take a considerable amount of time. Oftentimes, the Dispatcher will call a taxi to assist the Conductor or Brakeman. Cabooses were eliminated to rid the carriers of expense and taxis were hired to expedite operations. Other times, the Conductor or Brakeman is simply left to do the walk. This may result in fines for blocking crossings.
Another favorite is closing towers that control railroad crossings at grade and/or, connections to and from other railroads. Somewhere, it was decided that these towers and their Operators were redundant and unnecessary. Why have a guy in the field when there is a Dispatcher at some remote and far away location that can easily handle the workings at this location with the click of a mouse or touch of a keyboard. Sounds good on paper.
We eliminate four positions, possibly five, rid ourselves of some old building that needs maintenance, heating, cooling, lighting, running water and must meet fire and safety codes. It also reduces the tax burden on the property and eliminates potential liability. And true enough, all these costs are eliminated. A one time cost of installing new equipment here to replace the human intervention and voila, instant cost effectiveness.
And now for the drawbacks, you have now placed still more work on an already overburdened Train Dispatcher. As if they don’t already have a full pallet, you now give them even more to do. Contrary to what studies might show, there are not huge leaps in productivity when Dispatchers take over control of locations once handled by Operators at towers. Ask any Dispatcher who now handles numerous interlockings and control points that were once handled by Operators on sight.
The Dispatcher now must contend with more chores. He will have to either talk directly to train crews at the location involved, talk to the Dispatcher from the other railroad or railroads associated with this sight or, in some cases, both trains and Dispatchers. If there are equipment problems or malfunctions the Dispatcher now has to track down a Signal Maintainer or call the help desk at some other location to contact somebody. Add numerous now closed towers to the dispatching duties and they become even busier than ever. The busier he or she gets, the less time they have to keep track of everything that is going on within the friendly confines of their territory. This makes it harder for the train crews to get a hold of them, which oftentimes results in unnecessary delays to the trains. It also reduces on-time performance that we constantly hear so much about.
And being they are generally nowhere near the action, the Dispatchers really cannot tell what is going on without keeping an eye on their trusty Super VGA monitors. If this is a location where there are numerous switching moves being made, the train crew working at this location can easily get lost in the shuffle. This again reduces productivity as the train crew winds up sitting and waiting for signals. I have witness this routinely on numerous railroads.
Another factor is the Dispatchers not knowing all the ramifications of what may be going on. When there was an Operator there, the Op may very well have let the lite engine or short train cross traffic move shoot across before the hot shot arrives. He knows he has time, can see the move directly and knows the instant they are clear. All the technology in the world cannot achieve this gain in productivity. The Dispatcher on the other hand is busy, may not quickly see such a move is clear and still line up the hot shot with no delay. Instead he holds the lite engine or short train move. Doesn’t want to take any chance at all of delaying the hot shot. As a result, there are unneeded and unnecessary delays, Lost productivity that while not measuring on any computer model, will more often than not show up on the paychecks of the Engine and Train crews who encounter numerous delays like this throughout the course of their trips. I have always said, ten little five and ten minute delays will far outweigh one big one.
The overtime paid and productivity time lost is never weighed against the straight time earnings normally paid out. You cannot readily see this. Computers cannot project it. And being that it is not seen or projected, it doesn’t count and therefor is not part of the equation and is never factored in.
As towers are closed one of two things happen; you either step back in time by downgrading or move ahead and modernize the works. In many cases, it is the former rather than the latter that prevails. On the Indiana Harbor Belt, the cost-effective decision was made to close Stewart Avenue Tower at the far east end of Blue Island Yard. Stewart controlled all the switches at the east end of the yard, the switches for the connections to and from the MoPac and IC, and also the access to and from the Blue Island Running Track which passes on the very north side of the yard itself.
Blue Island Yard is a very busy place with numerous yard moves, interchange moves, through trains passing through as well as trains entering and departing the yard. While I was there, it was not uncommon to see 20-30 through moves, well over a hundred yard moves, dozens of inbound and outbound trains and numerous moves to and from the MoPac and IC in a 24-hour period. With all the involved switches controlled electrically from Stewart Avenue, things normally proceeded pretty well.
At some point when traffic levels were down, it was decided to eliminate Stewart Avenue Tower, remove the power from all the switches and convert them to hand operation. Somewhere along the way, it was also decided to remove a portion of Five Lead, thus eliminating a track used to enter and depart the yard. The signal to allow trains to enter the Blue Island Running Track was retained and control given to the Dispatcher. But the signal now merely conveyed authority to proceed; it was no longer tied into the route the switches were lined. You received a restricting indication on the signal. The switch just past the signal could and oftentimes was lined against the move you desired.
With this change in the mode of operation, all trains entering and departing Blue Island Yard and trains bypassing the terminal itself now had to proceed at restricted speed prepared to stop at all the switches and line any and all of them as required by hand. As a result, productivity was decreased. All trains now had to be ready to stop and usually had to, as the switches were almost never lined for your route.
While this may not appear like too big a deal, here are a few of the ramifications of their cost effectiveness. Trains on short time often went dead on the hours of service before making it into the yard as they were now stopping to line switches and any time left was consumed performing these chores. There are two major road crossings involved that are now getting blocked for longer periods of time as the Engineers have to operate at slower speeds and then stop for the Conductor or Brakeman to get off and handle all the switches. There is also Dolton Junction involved. This is where the IHB crosses the joint UP/CSX former Chicago & Western Indiana line. The former CWI is a very busy railroad and the trains on this route are hammered by the now slower moving (and often stopped) trains on the IHB.
Then couple in the removal a key portion of Five Lead. The delays really compounded themselves. A couple of years ago, Five Lead was put back in between School Street and Indiana Avenue after an absence of about seven or eight years. I wonder how much this cost?
The IC closed Belt Tower near Hawthorne Yard in Cicero back in the late 80’s. This is where the Belt Railway of Chicago crosses what is now the CNIC Freeport East Subdivision. The Operator there was an IC employee, but control of the plant was given to the Belt Dispatcher. All of the power switches west of the crossing were converted to hand operation.
I cannot begin to count the number of times I have sat at this crossing waiting for a signal. The Belt Dispatcher holds us for several moves on his railroad first. In more than one instance, well after all trains were clear, we still didn’t have a signal. A call to our Dispatcher reveals the Belt Dispatcher "forgot" about us. How novel, he forgot. I wonder what would happen if we forgot to call after sitting and waiting for say an hour with no cross traffic evident?
And of course, now all trains have to approach all the switches west of the crossing prepared to stop if the block signal here indicates restricted proceed. And yet again, there is a major road crossing involved when we have to stop and line the switches for our route. In some instances, we have to get talked by the stop signal at the Belt Crossing. More often than not, when this occurs, there are switches lined against our planned route. This means two stops and a crossing blocked even longer.
We’ll look at some other interesting cost effectiveness next time.
And so it goes,
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, © 2002.
When is this coming out in paperback?
"Productivity" is output accomplished with the same amount of input, or less input for the same amount of output. Reducing wages or benefits is not productivity. Increasing work hours is not productivity. Doing less work with less workers is not productivity.
If you think actual productivity is a bad idea, I suggest spending 50 percent of your income on food, as most people did 100 years ago.
The word is the No.5 Line will start running R 142's maybe starting as early as next month. I was talking with a supervisor on the No.5 Line who is in the know.
Also tonight at E 180 Yard cars 6766-6770/6826-6830 where programed as a No.5 Train to Bowling Green. They still are testing those 2 units together.
Now they just have to train the No.5 crews to run the R142.
>>Also tonight at E 180 Yard cars 6766-6770/6826-6830 where programed as a No.5 Train to Bowling Green<<
I thought #6800 and up would be the cars assigned to the #5.
Bill "Newkirk"
Saw a test R142 on the "5" yesterday afternoon @ Brooklyn Bridge.
Should i expect to see the R-142s on the No. 5 Line by the first or second week in Mrach?
#3 West End Jeff
There is a very good chance you will see that.
Which R-142 cars will be assigned to the No. 5 line.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm not 100% sure but I think it will be starting with the 6800's or maybe some late 6700's series. I wondering about that set at E 180 6766-6770 with 6826-6830 they still have No.5 signs.
Just stay tuned I'm sure something will come up very soon.
I shouldn't be surprised if I should see a trainset with cars numbered 6766-6770 and 6826-6830.
#3 West End Jeff
The end signs on the R142/As, are they LCD? They look so clear and crisp that they look like plastic with a beam of red light coming through.
>>The end signs on the R142/As, are they LCD? They look so clear and crisp that they look like plastic with a beam of red light coming through<<
Nope, rather L.E.D. (light emitting dioides).
Bill "Newkirk"
LEDs........as are the internal bulkhead signs on the 142 and 142 Alphas. The external SIDE signs are flip-daught LCD's though.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hope to see R142's on the 5 soon.
I HOPE I HOPE I HOPE I HOPE I NEED IT!!!!!!! CI Peter
That is wonderful news!!!!! I cross the tracks February 11th to 180th coming ever closer to Train Dude Land. Guess who can train the service crews??? CI Peter
So you will be right where I'm at. I always past Train dudes land looking down from the No.4 Line. Concouse YD is starting to look like 207 St YD.
Uh oh ... NOW you did it ... you might as well scratch car maintainer off your career options list NOW, buddy. One does not compare Dude's train garage to 207th and LIVE. :)
No...I'll still be at 239th unless the whole shebang moves back to 180th. I'll just be hopping over some tracks to the Rooskie side with their #5s....they're good people to work with. Starting and staying here has meant the fastest exposure to 'new tech,' unlike the mix at other maintainance facilities. CI Peter
Amtrak plans to lay off 700 workers and cut costs elsewhere to trim what it says is a $200 million shortfall this year, two sources knowledgeable about the moves said.
The national passenger railroad, facing a possible restructuring by Congress, planned an announcement Friday.
The sources said Thursday that Amtrak also was broaching the idea of cuts in long-distance trains if Congress does not help plug its deficit. That prospect will likely get the attention of lawmakers, many of whom would be loath to accept any reduction in service to their states.
Amtrak is under growing pressure to improve its finances. The congressionally appointed Amtrak Reform Council will recommend next week that the government break up Amtrak and open passenger rail to competition.
Amtrak officials declined comment. An Amtrak statement said President George Warrington would announce "new business actions in response to political and financial risks."
Amtrak has used more than $25 billion in federal subsidies since its inception in 1971. Congress five years ago gave Amtrak until December 2002 to end its reliance on annual operating subsidies.
Amtrak has broadened its ventures to try to increase revenue and was hopeful the introduction of the nation's first high-speed train -- Acela Express -- would give it the boost it needed. Systemwide ridership has increased every year since 1996, to 23.5 million passengers in 2001.
But last week the Transportation Department's inspector general reported that Amtrak lost $1.1 billion in 2001, the most in its 30-year history, and is no closer to operational self-sufficiency than it was in 1998.
Last summer, Amtrak had to mortgage parts of New York's Penn Station -- its most valuable asset -- for $300 million to keep trains running through the end of the fiscal year.
This time, Amtrak plans to trim costs by laying off 700 people, including 300 managers, the sources said. Amtrak also plans to scale back the maintenance on train cars.
Currently, when a train car is brought in for a specific reason like brake work, Amtrak performs comprehensive repairs, right down to torn upholstery. In the future, Amtrak will fix the immediate problem only.
Amtrak leaders have long said the federal government needs to invest more in tracks, rail yards, stations and other assets. The sources said Amtrak reported it has a $5 billion backlog of needed improvements that have not been made through the years because of a shortage of capital funding.
The railway will ask for $1 billion in the fiscal year that begins in October, on top of the $200 million it wants immediately to cover the shortfall in the current fiscal year, the sources said.
Amtrak announced last summer that it would offer early retirement and voluntary separation incentives to its 2,900 managers as part of a cost-cutting effort. It is not known has many took the offer.
At the time, Warrington said Amtrak would spend four to six months seeking ways "to eliminate overlapping operations, tighten cost controls and improve revenue opportunities."
The start of a downhill spiral, IMO. If cars are fixed only for immediate problems and continue to operate with torn upholstery, are dirty, light bulbs burned out, etc., with the fares they're charging Amtrak will lose customers. Once someone stops riding the trains because they're fed up with Amtrak, it will be very difficult to get them back on board.
Never know. If they do that on the NEC lines, they will be gone, the NEC is by far their best source of income.
(Amtrak also plans to scale back the maintenance on train cars.
Currently, when a train car is brought in for a specific reason like brake work, Amtrak performs comprehensive repairs, right down to torn upholstery. In the future, Amtrak will fix the immediate problem only.)
They aren't even doing scheduled maintenace to prevent failures now, and they are cutting back from that? I wonder what their MDBF is!
That and financial shenanigans like borrowing against Penn Station! Liquidate AMTRAK NOW, before it destroys the NE Corridor!
What do you think "liquidate" means ? Liquidate Amtrak and there is no NEC.
>>> This time, Amtrak plans to trim costs by laying off 700 people, including 300 managers, <<<
The remaining managers with at least half a brain will be sending out their resumes to get off the sinking ship. The best of them will get jobs elsewhere, contributing to the death spiral of Amtrak.
Tom
Are the Canal Street platforms on the 4/5/6, N/R, Q//W and the J/M/Z now been renovated with the Chinese theme, or is the J/M/Z platform still with the same tile pattern from the line's opening?
Decorated with a Chinese theme.
?
Only the N/R and Q/W platforms have the Chinese themed tilework, no?
I saw it on the Q/W platform. The J/M platforms had the old tile work. I didn't get to see the 6 or the R/N platforms.
and the Bridge connektor, da.
Stuart, RLine86Man and FakeRussianTransmissionMan
Yesterday, coming home, the train was late. They decided to skip stops over the Sea Beach segment of the line again. As usual, they stopped at 8th Av, New Utrecht, and Kings Highway. I decided to get off at Kings Highway and take one stop back on the NB. Well, train that I got off, didn't continue too far after Kings Highway. It went past the switches, switched ends, and came back NB. At that time, it took about 8 minutes or so, there was an R40 in Kings Highway station on the SB tracks. It must've been a very nice view from the R40's railfan window.
I was severely delayed last weekend on the N at New Utrecht Av due to a broken rail. Sat there for over 30 minutes. When we got going, we took the battery run (express run) of a lifetime.
I was supposed to make all local stops, and instead made:
New Utrecht-59 St-36 St-Pacific St-Canal St via Bridge-14 St-34 St................
and was still 11 minutes late.
The bridge? Express? Wow, I wish I could have been on that ride. It sounded like a wild excursion to me.
Ah, the good old days.
Used to love it when there was a GO and the N ran express from Kings Highway to 59th - on the express tracks, and then it's usual express run to 57th Street. What a great ride from an R32 front window.
Bring back the EE with the R16's......................
Express tracks should always be used on Sea Beach. Just add three stations to the express through a rehab.
Not if they are going to be used by another line. Sea Beach express tracks should be used for the Sea Beach train and the Sea Beach only.
Well Fred, what is your idea of how the unutilized express tracks on Sea Beach should be properly used?
I don't think they'll be resurrecting the Coney Island Express anytime soon. That's what the Sea Beach express tracks were built for.
Steve: Don't tell Fred but between Kings Highway and 8 Avenue it is no longer the Sea Beach express tracks,rather the sea beach express track. The good news is that there is once again boat service from the Brooklyn Army Terminal to Manhattan like there was in the old days when Fred was young.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's right. I get the feeling they may just leave the severed track in place for the same reason the tracks in the Essex St. trolley terminal are still there. They're not in anyone's way.
When it ran express it must have been as fast as the old Sea Beach express run. I think that the run from Midtown Manhattan to Coney Island could be done in about 40 minutes when the train ran on the express tracks on both legs of the run.
#3 West End Jeff
Wow, that's an amazing run... what stops did it make after 34th? Any stops in Queens?
After 34th it probably stopped at 42nd Street Times Square. I wouldn't be sure whether or not the train would have stopped at 49th St., but it would have certainly stopped at 57th St. In Queens the train probably would have made all of the local stops.
#3 West End Jeff
It would have been more interesting if in Queens, it went on hte express track.
I would agree with you on that point. I don't think it would save much time but the express run on the Astoria Line might be interesting.
#3 West End Jeff
Given that it was a weekend, the express track in Astoria was probably blocked by laid up trains.
They no longer lay up trains on that structure.
The #7, which parallels the N from Queens Plaza, then juts in different directions, runs as both an express and local. I suppose the N could do the same. However, as much as I would like the N to run as an express, I feel that since there are only seven stops or so on the Astoria Line it could run as a local without me fulminating over it. It is in Manhattan and Brooklyn where I get my dander up. There it should be an express.
That's awesome! sort of like the karmic opposite of all those times my W was congested and they sent us down on the long trip through the tunnel and along the 4th avenue local tracks...
When they ran express in June, I forget when we started running express but we only stopped at Kings.
Thats one advantage of having the NB crew start SB at Kinngs Highway!
On one of my trips last week, I left Met 5 minutes late due to a b/o train across the platform (busted picture window). Go to FP and some idiot in the last car for no apparent reason put her foot in between 2 door panels, despite the fact the c/r fully re-opened and closed the doors several times. Lost another 5 minutes, so already on my followers time. I requested and received a skip. I was told to stop at Forest-Wycoff-Bway/Myrtle-Marcy. Regular to 36/4th. Then express on the local track stopping ant Ninth-62nd-Bay Pkwy. We made up 6 minutes of the lost time.
Hey Bill, how do you feel about possibly operating an R-143 when the tail end of the order cars make it over to the (M)?
Rumor has it with a little finagaling and a wire coat hanger, you can pick up HBO on the console screen ! Maybe getting Transit Transit on the screen seems more likely !
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm sure that screen will even pick up Starz ... after Harry loaded his "over 1500 images" into the 143 and it STILL didn't crash, I was ready to pronounce it "fit for duty." :)
The rumors of OPTO shuttle service for the winter pick 2002/2003 may chase me off the M line, then I may be elsewhere next pick anyway. One r/t to Ninth and 2 r/t's to Bay Pkwy so I can make a bit of o/t is too much cab time. I'd have less cab time doing 2 on the F! I also hear too many complaints of the poorly placed master controller into the window sill area. I've heard too many complaints of t/o's having to flex their hands and fingers practically at every stop. Operate that thing over the WillyB, your hand/finger circulation may be cut off. I am very concerned about this issue for myself and my brother and sister t/o's. I think the master controller on the R142 is on the console itself.
Yes, the 143 controller is over to the side. There is a sorta "arm rest" behind it made of metal (gray colored) ... Here's a shot of it here although I've got some closer shots of it myself. And yes, I've commented myself on how I wouldn't want to run it either. I've played with it personally during the test run on Canarsie and sure didn't like it. Only seeming downside of the 143's too ... it's a NICE toy otherwise ...
Why don't they put the controller in the middle where it belongs. Besides which it seems like it is going to be awlward for some T/Os to operate the train with the side mounted controller.
#3 West End jeff
Seems kinda late to do it now ... dunno if the pictures really show what it's like SEATED in operating mode, but the "panel" doesn't have a "shelf" where you'd be able to mount it as designed. You have your winged monitor stand and then it drops straight down with an electronics cabinet under the monitors. No "shelf" or "table" on which to mount the controller. Looks like it's pretty much frozen in the design now.
I'd have to GUESS that somewhere along the line, at least one TSS with former motor experience sat in the mockup and had some thoughts. But yes, it's unwieldy and while I'd worry about carpal tunnel from the awkward position, the thing that has me MORE concerned is barreling into a "fast station" and needing to take a serious bite of air only to find my hand folded back on itself suddenly putting her in the hole (dumping) ... it's the braking and the awkward position that would give me a bigger dose of the willies running one than holding the bat handle in motion.
It sounds like the T/Os are going to have their hands full when they have to operate the R-143s in order to get used to them. I'm sure that some of them will wind up getting carpal tunnel syndrome from what you are describing to me.
#3 West End Jeff
I didn't get enough "handle time" on the 143 to have a feel for what long term operation will be like. I must admit the handle has a nice smooth gentle feel to it ... but I consider it very awkward. Bear in mind I didn't think much of the "big slide pot" either on the consoles of the bingbongs. At least they HAD a console you could put a sammich down on. The 143's don't. But I chalk up a lot of my own opinion to my own perceptions - anything short of two-fisted operation is bogus. :)
Do you think that you would get used to the handle position after a while?
#3 West End Jeff
I imagine you'd HAVE to. :)
I wonder how many T/Os will say to themselves (Who designed this freaking console?) when their arm cramps up the umpteenth time.
#3 West End Jeff
Just sent you a picture by email ... the facial expression pretty much says it all. :)
I liked your facial expression while you were at the controls of the R-143.
#3 West End Jeff
Oh that wonderful "OH SHEET! Bumperkiss and I'm still showing 23 MPH after a full-serve at 2 cars in?" heh. Just part of the foamer experience. :)
Yeah, was discussing the matter with a few MTA adminiswigs and expressed my "what da fuh" over how it was positioned to the gigantic shrug of "well, this is what the engineers decided would be the best" and wondering where the Hades I could get an ofay of that kilo they was smoking when they did the car order ... but hey, "NEW TECH" and "sidearms" are the rage on the *JR* (Japan rail) so lo and behold, the Nips have a secret for Carpal Tunnel unknown to us "gaigin" ("foreign devils") ... so who am I to argue with the "successful low bid?" Domo Arrigato, Roboto-san. Heh.
The Controller on the R142 is in the Middle of the console.
Last week I rode my No.5 train out light from Flatbush to E 180 St do to 2 seats where missing and a kicked out window. Yes someone took 2 redbird seats off the train.
Someone holding doors for no reason that always a problem that why I love those doors on the R142 just press Local Recycle and that does the trick. Those doors will hurt you if held too long I should know I played the door holder in R142 school car.
So the "Local Recycle" button puts more force on the doors to force people to let go? Nice...
You ought to see what the "customer recycle" button does. Blades! (whoops, shouldn't be giving away secrets) ... but if you've noted the massive increase in "medical attention" delays, well there you are. :)
And from the SAME source as the above, I understand that there's a retrofit due for R68's, 32's, 38's and 40's ... yep - Nintendo gamepads to operate, replacing the outmoded "two fisted operation" controls. I tell ya, it's coming apart like a cheap suit ...
No, the Local Recycle doesn't apply more force - it just reopens the one door panel that failed to close until it finally closes. If you are stupid enough to let it do this to more than once, it hurts.
Yes, those R142 doors do hurt. I was also used as a R142 door punching bag during school car. I would expect the R143 doors are the same way.
Brings a tear to my eye knowing the old NYCTA "use it or lose it" rule is about to be reapplied to "customers." :)
This is an ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPH on a train of R46's I was on the other day. I saw this with MY OWN EYES and the WISIWYG (What I Saw Is What You Get) principle applies here.
<a href="http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/getimg.html?32/23.jpg">P Train Picture</a>
WHOA!!!!!!!!! *jaw goes slack*
This isn't a major shift in MTA policy is it?????
Stuart, RLine86 (and not hopefully "PLine86") Man
No, its just a broken "R" sign.
Obviously Mitch but if you have been following the earlier threads on the subject you would get the humor of the situation
I know, I know............ :-D I'm still getting off of the sleep meds I was taking last night.
Stuart, RLine86Man
code 1020 is "P" without a destination
but that was clearly marked with a destination
I thought I saw BAY RIDGE. Also a puddy tat. But that's another thread!
Well, here is what it is.
X X X
The red blocks with the X's in them are the bad blocks which do not go dark. It's a regular R|BROADWAY LCL|via 60 ST|BAY RIDGE|95 ST sign with a P showing because the three pixels that turn a P into an R have not gone dark.
lol, I think somebody used flash... ;)
I usually take the subway a couple days of week to work in Lower Manhattan, transferring at 51/Lexington to the 6 train then the 4. Once in a blue moon, I'll see a R142 signed as a 5 the E'Chester/Dyre Ave . My question is are these train properly programmed for the 5 (meaning interior maps, and automatic announcements), or are they just rerouted 2 trains on the outside?
Any insight would be helpful.
Thanks in advance,
Tony C.
Umm....R-One-Four-Twos are SCHEDULED to be put on the Five line soon. I believe the One-Four-Twos that you may have seen were there because of some shortage of cars for Rush Hour Number Five trains.
(Notice that I didn't use numerals throughout this post.............here they are translated for the nit-witted of minds:
R-One-Four-Two= R-142
One-Four-Two= 142
Number Five= (5) train)
Thank you wery much :0) *bows*
Stuart, RLine86 and NitwitTranslatorMan
Well, as for you answer about the programming of the train. All of the R142's are programmed with all the lines in the IRT so you can use them anyway.
No, they can't do the 1, 7, or 9 trains presumebly. The R143 can only do the J, L, M, and Z.
R142s cannot be properly programmed for riders comfort when changing lines. The maps will be out of service and one can only hope that destination signs and AAS remain in sync. ALWAYS enjoy the smooth ride. CI Peter
Amtrak will end long distence service if..........
Congress will come through with the funding, eventually! After all. congress forked over 15 billion to the airlines last October. I'm sure there are a few Congressmen who have constitients and family members who simply do not want to fly and will want to keep them happy as well.
I agree. But they will be giving us ulcers until Sep 30th.
Boy that article is so anti-rail. The make it seam 1.5 billion is nothing. They give the reader nothing to compare it to (ex. 20 billion for airlines). AND that it doesn't deserve the money.
When I got off Subtalk last night I decided to watch a little TV. To my surprise the History Channel had an hour show called "The New York Subway". I enjoyed in thoroughly. It went from the streetcars to th e El's, Dual Contracts, city takeover in 1940, etc. But I got my big thrill when they showed a Triplex #4, and a R-32 being spray washed. I was able to get my Sea Beach fix for the day. Did any of you guys see it and if so what was your impression?
I'd seen the show before. Entertaining, but I don't know if I learned anything new. Personally, I liked the cut-and-paste animation in regard to the Boss Tweed era.
Was this the show that had that animated 3-D graphic sequence showing the lines in different colors? Now that's something that'd be great to have as a computer program.
Alan Glick
Is this the same as the show "Subway: Empire Beneath New York's Streets," narrated by Jack Perkins, that first ran on A&E a number of years ago and is available on video?
It was narrated by Jack Perkins but since I tuned in five minutes after its start I never got the title.
That's got to be it then... only one he's done, AFAIK.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a VHS copy of that show. The only Triplex I can remember seeing is the one being hoisted off its trucks in (this is a guess) CI shops.
For those who take an interest in transit from a social viewpoint, here is a review and schedule of special speakers here in Washington DC.
Amassed Transit
By Michael O'Sullivan
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, February 1, 2002; Page WE50
"ON TRACK: Transit and the American City," a new exhibition at the National Building Museum, presents an engrossing history of American public transportation and how it has shaped (and has been shaped by) the growth of our cities, but it fails to answer two fundamental questions:
What did it feel like to sit on a wooden trolley car seat 100 years ago? And why do we not yet have space cars that fold up into little briefcases like the one George Jetson drove?
That last question, I fear, is unanswerable. As for the first, it's not as frivolous as it sounds. We can't sit on those hard, uncomfortable-looking benches because they're antiques, on loan from the National Capital Trolley Museum (one of two worthy museums of streetcar transportation in the area, along with the Baltimore Streetcar Museum). Still, it seems reasonable to wonder what impact those unyielding slats had on the turn-of-the-century's commuter's tush, if only by offering the museum-goers of today a less fragile facsimile that we could try out. This is especially true considering that you can sit on the orange cushioned seats the museum has set out in its re-creation of a Metro subway car.
That we've come a long way, baby, is part of "On Track's" multifaceted message, so it's a mite disappointing not to have the message delivered as well as it could be -- through the seat of our pants.
Here's why it isn't. One point that the exhibition makes, and makes well, is the importance of design, not just functional but formal design, in public transportation. After all, it's the "transit experience" -- what it feels like to be a subway straphanger or to jostle elbows with the great unwashed on an unair-conditioned bus versus what it's like to zip around town (or sit in gridlock) in your SUV -- that determines whether or not these systems get used. Comfort and aesthetics are as important as, if not more important than, such issues as economics and access. If getting from A to B for a buck ten were all that mattered, then we wouldn't be having the debates we've been having here about canopy design for our own Metro entrances, nor would Sir Norman Foster's elegant curved glass and metal entryways for the new stations in Bilbao, Spain's system, resembling stylized seashells, be so damn beautiful.
As noted by Building Museum curator Mary Konsoulis, who organized the show with historian Kathleen Franz, the issue of what public transportation looks and feels like is "anything but minor."
So, kudos to the museum for the ersatz Metro installation, which includes the front of an actual car, complete with conductor's booth and a video creating the driver's experience of hurtling -- albeit virtually -- through a subway tunnel. Kudos also, for the early 1960s TV car ads, which go a long way to explain the pre-HOV origins of our love affair with the automobile. In one, narrator Danny Kaye alludes to the writer John Milton, comparing the 1962 Pontiac Bonneville to "such stuff as poets dream on."
Okaaay.
Organized into three broad historical sections called "The Expanding City" (1880s to 1920s), "The Suburban City" (1920s to 1960s) and "The Regional City" (1960s to the present), the structure of "On Track" is set up, naturally enough, around the display of three vehicles, which form its iconic and thematic spine.
First is the aforementioned streetcar, dating from 1910. It symbolizes the transition from foot- and horse-powered locomotion to early mass transit. Next comes a 1929 Model A Ford to represent the city's gasoline-fueled growth outward into bedroom communities. Finally, the walk-in Metro car forms the core of the section devoted to the Golden Age of Heavy Rail (this despite the fact that the country's first subway, actually little more than an underground streetcar, was built in Boston in 1897).
Also included in the show: archival photographs; videos; a recorded compilation of traffic reports by Metro Traffic Control reporter Jerry Edwards; listening stations with such examples of transit-themed pop music as Petula Clark's "Don't Sleep in the Subway"; parking meters from the 1930s, '40s and '50s; ticket-taking paraphernalia; old transit uniforms; collections of bus and subway maps; and a 3-D model of the proposed redevelopment of downtown Silver Spring.
Oh yes, there are also a couple of federal and municipal transit task force reports opened to what must be particularly juicy pages, but I doubt many people are going to read those. At least they let us know that, in the days after such ruthless "streetcar barons" as Charles Tyson Yerkes, Henry E. Huntington and Francis G. Newlands (developer of Chevy Chase) ruled the rails, someone out there (if only Big Government) was concerned for something other than making a dollar.
If the early galleries of "On Track" seem overly crowded with artifacts and a bewildering array of hanging text panels, that's by design. As you move through the space, the rooms gradually open up and begin to feel less cluttered, in much the same way as the theoretical city whose development is charted by the exhibition does. Also helpful is the series of a dozen numbered "stops" that break the installation into intellectually digestible units. Like signs in an unfamiliar subway system, they help to point the viewer's way and to tie the show's numerous themes together.
As for the lack of a seat in the streetcar section, the show compensates by including a "Family Fun Room" with samples of seating and flooring material and touch panels that allow viewers to get at least a tactile impression of the way our notions of physical comfort and its importance have evolved over the years -- and are still evolving. As for me, I'm still waiting for that car-in-a-briefcase.
ON TRACK: TRANSIT AND THE AMERICAN CITY -- Through Oct. 27 at the National Building Museum, 401 F St. NW (Metro: Judiciary Square). 202/272-2448. Web site: www.nbm.org. Open Mondays through Saturdays 10 to 5; Sundays noon to 5. Free.
Public programs associated with the exhibition include:
Monday from 6:30 to 8:30 -- "Downtown: Its Rise and Fall." Prof. Roger M. Fogelson of MIT talks about how trolleys and railroads shaped our urban centers and how highways tore them apart. $14. Registration required.
Feb. 9 from 10:30 to 11:30 -- "All Aboard!" Children ages 3 to 6 and their families can listen to travel-themed stories and design their own train car. $3 per train car. Registration not required.
March 2 from 10:30 to 11:30 -- "Traveling Through Film." Children ages 3 to 6 and their families can watch such films about trains as "Thomas the Tank Engine" and "The Little Engine that Could." Free. Registration not required.
March 6 from 6:30 to 8 -- "The Future of Metro." Richard A. White, general manager and CEO of the Washington Metropolitan Transit Authority, discusses Metro's expansion efforts. $14. Registration required.
April 1 from 6:30 to 8 -- "Bringing Trolleys Back to the Nation's Capital." Alex Eckmann, of the D.C. DOT's Office of Mass Transit, discusses the potential return of light rail to the city. $14. Registration required.
May 1 from 6:30 to 8 -- "A New Transit Community in the Bay Area." Donna Gerber, commissioner of California's Contra Costa County, talks about the planned town center at the Pleasant Hill BART Station. $14. Registration required.
May 11 from 10:30 to 11:30 -- "Tales, Trails and Travels." Children ages 3 to 6 and their families can listen to travel-themed stories and create travel journals for their next trip. Free. Registration not required.
June 11 from 6:30 to 8 -- "Transit Trends in the United States." G.B. Arrington of the engineering firm Parsons Brinckerhoff discusses trends in transit and land use. $14. Registration required.
July 11 from 6:30 to 8 -- "Transit-Oriented Development in the District of Columbia." Karina Ricks of the D.C. Office of Planning discusses efforts to channel development near Metro stations. $14. Registration required.
July 25 from 6:30 to 8 -- "Transit in Black and White." Exhibition co-curator Kathleen G. Franz talks about Thomas Edison's films documenting how Americans responded to early public transportation systems. $14. Registration required.
© 2002 The Washington Post Company
Posted without permission.
Sounds like an interesting display. If, as they say, they have "the front of an actual car" from the Washington Metro, then what car was scrapped to provide parts for this display?
:-)
Frank Hicks
From the TV coverage of the display, it's just a mock-up with a rear projection screen in front of the car. Just like the old driver's ed.
Philip Hom
(a real name)
Sounds like the "simulator" isn't really a sim but just some video...
I caught "Trading Places" last night on cable. I've seen it many times, but a few things caught my eye (and ear) last night.
The first thing is inside the Amtrak train Eddie, Jamie, Dan, and friends catch to meet up with Clarence Beeks. If you watch really carefully, as Paul Gleason (playing Beeks) starts to open the door to the cabin, some masked New Years Eve revelers run down the hall chasing eachother. As they do, the wall that is supposed to hold the door to the cabin actually shakes as the people run past it. I guess that was filmed in a sound studio and not in an actual car. Does anyone know if the sleeper cars on Amtrak trains look like they did in the movie? I assume those were sleeper cars. Unless they have cars that let you ride with only three or four more people instead of a whole carload? Just wondering.
On a sadder note, I couldn't help but get a lump in my throat as the classical music swells later on in the film and the World Trade Center is seen. Who would have thought years later the buildings and so many lives would be gone.
But what really sent a chill down my spine are two phrases Dan Ackroyd tells Eddie Murphy as they are walking right past the front of one of the towers: (not exact quotes)
1. "Nothing you have experienced will prepare you for the carnage you will witness here".
2. "Here it is -- the last bastion of pure Capitalism left on Earth".
Somehow, I can't help but feel that those words were a grim forewarning of things to come years down the road. Anyway, I just thought I would share my observations.
I got in touch with a movie-type person in Hollywood--a friend of mine from the ol' H.S. television production days......and he said that he found out that it was filmed on a soundstage and not an actual car.
I saw it last night, as well, in fact........gotta love Digital Cable, eh? :-D
And yeah....those pictures as well as shots from other movies with (either) location shoots or "stock footage" of the WTC in all of it's glory does make me choke...
Stuart, RLine86Man
Those Amtrak cars were fakes in a soundstage.
Notice how one of the "Amfleet" cars was a BAGGAGE car with no windows?
Sounds like an interesting display. If, as they say, they have "the front of an actual car" from the Washington Metro, then what car was scrapped to provide parts for this display?
:-)
Frank Hicks
From the TV coverage of the display, it's just a mock-up with a rear projection screen in front of the car. Just like the old driver's ed.
Philip Hom
(a real name)
It seems that Amtrak came into the world dominated by air traffic, so the odds of it surving are already slim. When 9/11 came about however it seems that people went back on the trains for the simple fact that even if a train was hijacked, it could not do any super significant damage, except to the train of course. Also for the fact that it was on the ground.
Trains have been given a chance now to prove themselves right now, eventhough its a small window of oppertunity'it can prove excellent. Now it would be a multi-billion dollar thing, but here are the advantages. We reconstruct Amtrak so it looks like a good well ran company. With regional managers, and state managers, city managers etc. Then build a super high speed network (no not 90 m.p.h.) but possibly 200 mph trains. Connecting the major northeast cities. Chicago to NYC, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, Richmond, Philadelphia, Trenton. With super high speed acess, do the same on the west coast. Connecting San Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles, Seattle, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City. This will compete very quickly with airplanes, if the price can be kept low, which in Europe has been able to do. It should become popular very quickly, then expansion should become possible, like connecting the entire eastern seabored, and then the East Coast and West Coast. New York to Los Angeles on a 200 mph train should take 15 hours. The ride is more comfortable then an airplane, and there would be no delay because of turbulance or cheesy reasons. The rail system would be fast, and efficent. New York City to orlando would take 5 hours. San Fran to Los Angeles would be a dash.
Then the Airplane Industry would learn how quickly Rail Service can be a formidable force.
Next, how to run a good rail company 101.
I think a good first step would be to level the playing field by providing at least as much federal money to rail as we do to airlines.
Did I say "at least as much"? It probably would take less than that, considering how much airlines are subsidized directly and indirectly.
Mark
Unfortunately, those changes would require money. The government would gladly give tens of billions to airlines, but if you check out the recent news reports, they're reluctant to give Amtrak the 200 million they're requesting.
As much as I'd like to see Amtrak prosper, I don't see it happening.
correction, they're asking for 1.2 bil, not 200 million. Still a lot less than the airlines got. In fact, the $25 billion total that they've used since 1971 is still less I think than the subsidies that Congress gave out to the airline industry a few months ago.
Of course this would take loads of money, but if Amtrak did have true high-speed lines I think it would definitely be more competition - especially on the NE corridor. I like flying the shuttles between LGA and DCA, but it would be nice if Amtrak (since Penn is right there in Manhattan) could make the trip quicker than it does now.
Wayne
at least Trains do not have to await clearance to their main terminal like certain flights at LaGuardia...............
Like LIRR trains don't have to wait NYP
Keep in mind that some of the routes you are referring to, especially NYP-Chicago and NYP-Florida, run on tracks that are owned by the freight railroads, who will not upgrade their tracks for high-speed passenger service without getting royalties for them from Amtrak. And even then, they may just decide to still tie up the trackage for their own purposes. That puts Amtrak in the same disadvantage vis-a-vis the airlines over time of travel.
What needs to be done is to have better trackage rights agreements between Amtrak (or whoever else takes up passenger service) and the freight corporations, along with double-or-more tracked mainlines where there are currently single tracks, better signaling, and better management on every level. I could go on to say that taxation and the like needs to be looked at and changed, but that's a whole new ball game.
How about going French and building real express passenger lines and nationalising the freight ones?
I know that rail would not be able to complete regionlly here in the southwest because of ticket price.
for example:
Phoenix to
LAX
Burbank
Ontario
San Diego
Las Vegas
The airfare is usally $59 to $99 Round Trip and bewtween Southwest & America West Just to LAX toghter provide 47 daily flights. How many trips with high speed rail 125mph+ would be available from Phoenix To Los Angeles (223 Miles)?
Hopefully their planes are better then this old Lockheed Martin L1011.
Just building a high-speed rail line between Phoenix and LA would be a problem because of the topography, which is why the UP line doesn't even go through Phoenix, but follows the Gila River basin from Casa Grande to Yuma, then to Brawley and north to Palm Springs.
The direct route I-10 uses bounces from 1,800 feet above sea level in Phoenix up to about 2,500 feet near Quartzite, down to 400 feet at the Colorado River, back up to 3,000 feet at Chiriaco Summit and then down to 100 feet below sea level as it comes into Indio and meets up with the UP line. Some of those rises are graduaal, including the one coming west out of Palm Springs towards Riverside, but for a high speed train going 250-300 mph, they would still have to do a lot of briding/tunneling to handle all those altitude changes without resorting to detours to lessen the grade, which would have to increase the length of the trip.
The UP does have a branch line that splits off the main line at Casa Grande the go north thru Cooldge, Gilbert, Chandler, Mesa The West thru Tempe, Phoenix, Avondale, Goodyear & Buckeye then Southwest returning to the main line west of Gila Bend. SP/Amtrak Sunset Limted Ended service to Phoenix in 1992, There are Passenger stations at Cooldge, Tempe & Phoenix.
It seems that Amtrak came into the world dominated by air traffic, so the odds of it surving are already slim. When 9/11 came about however it seems that people went back on the trains for the simple fact that even if a train was hijacked, it could not do any super significant damage, except to the train of course. Also for the fact that it was on the ground.
Trains have been given a chance now to prove themselves right now, eventhough its a small window of oppertunity'it can prove excellent.
It looks as if the window of opportunity is closing quite rapidly. Airline passenger counts, while still down from pre-September 11 levels, are on the increase. Many laid-off airline workers have been recalled and cancelled routes re-started.
Amtrak's problem really is they have to be servant to masters in 50 states when it comes to Congressional funding, and there are at least 20 of those states where passenger rail service just does not, and cannot, make finanical sense operating on tracks it has to share with freight rail. The distances are too far, the speeds are too slow and the trains are too infrequent to get people away from their cars or airplanes.
If privatizing the system is not feasable, Congress should set-up some sort of cost sharing system between the states and federal government, and divide the system into its natual sections (Northeast corridor, Midwest, Pacific Coast) and let the states in those areas put up some of the cost of funding the lines. For the states between Washington and Boston, where passenger rail service is not that much of a money-loser, the subsidies themselves should be that much; but for states like Oklahoma, Arizona or Wyoming, they would have to decide whether or not they want to put up some of their own local tax dollars to keep a line suffering heavy losses afloat.
Yes, it would mean the end of long-distance passenger service for the most part, but unless you can get the train speeds up to the same levels as those in Europe and Japan (which would take construction of dedicated high-speed lines), they're just not going to be attractive to people wanting to get from Point A to Point B either in a hurry or on their own timetable.
Did you guys totally miss Post #318497 ... the one in which I suggested high speed rail along Interstate Highway medians?
Tough in a lot of urban areas, where widening the highway to four, or even five lines in each have shrunk the medians down to the same concrete barrier side on most NYC expressways. You would either have to undertake a major redesign of those highway to allow for placement of the lines, find a new ROW through the urban areas away from the highways or go in an pull a pseudo-Bob Moses and take property on one side of the existing highways in order to widen the road to allow placement of a rail line in-between the ROW.
Rural area redesigns would be easier, because the medians there tend to be wide enough to handle a rail line, though as I pointed out in another thread, when you get to the Mountain Time Zone the grades on some of the Interstates might be too steep in some areas to safely allow trains doing 250-300 mph to share the ROW.
Amtrak's problem really is they have to be servant to masters in 50 states when it comes to Congressional funding, and there are at least 20 of those states where passenger rail service just does not, and cannot, make finanical sense operating on tracks it has to share with freight rail. The distances are too far, the speeds are too slow and the trains are too infrequent to get people away from their cars or airplanes.
Very true ... the United States isn't Europe or Japan, geography-wise, and unfortunately that's not good for rail. Better to concentrate on the NE corridor and other dense routes.
Airline passenger counts, while still down from pre-September 11 levels, are on the increase.
It seems as if the insanity is coming to an end. Now it's time to end the travesty that is the 60-story replacement WTC.
There was an article today in the Newark Star-Ledger that said that unless Amtrak got a few hundred million from the Feds, they were going to cut back on some long-distance rail service.
The article also expressed the possibility of Amtrak giving everything up and just operating in the Northeast Corridor (Boston to Washington) where they can turn a profit.
Since the Feds mandated that Amtrak has to start turning a profit, Amtrak giving everything up except the NE Corridor could be a very real possibility.
Since the Feds mandated that Amtrak has to start turning a profit, Amtrak giving everything up except the NE Corridor could be a very real possibility.
And that would be a giant leap backwards for our society. But maybe it would take something that drastic to shake up public sentiment enough to favor major progress on a national high-speed rail system.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm not really that sure it will be a giant leap backwards for our society.
The golden age of railroading ended with the arrival of the automobile and the commercial jet. The automobile provides the freedom to get there when you want to get there, and the jet gets you there alot faster. If the plane is going to get there faster, then I'm on the plane.
The United States is just too big and too vast to invest in a national high-speed rail system. You can't compare it to Europe.
The golden age of railroading ended with the arrival of the automobile and the commercial jet. The automobile provides the freedom to get there when you want to get there, and the jet gets you there alot faster. If the plane is going to get there faster, then I'm on the plane.
I disagree. The railroad didn't die a natural death in the US; it deliberately killed off by those who have a vested financial interest in building highways and airports. And look what we have to show for it now: Massive freeways choked with traffic congestion, air pollution, suburban sprawl, and crowded airports.
For distances of under 500 miles or so, high-speed rail has the capability of being faster than the airlines, certainly faster than driving, and is a hell of a lot more enviromentally responsible than either. But this viable alternative has been ignored by those, particularly those on the right wing who are beholden to the oil and highway lobbies, who would prefer to see every inch of this country paved over. The fact that they often wrap up their arguments in the mantra of defending some mythical American way of life is even more disgusting.
I also feel that there's a place for long-distance rail travel, although there's room for debate on that one. When's the last time you've ridden a long-distance Amtrak train? Contrary to what some would have you believe, Amtrak isn't pulling empty trains all over the US; most long-distance Amtrak trains are quite full. (Whether or not they actually make a "profit" is a pointless debate. When's the last time I-95 made a profit?)
The United States is just too big and too vast to invest in a national high-speed rail system. You can't compare it to Europe.
That's a stale argument that has been propped up by the anti-rail crowd so many times it's become a cliche. France actually has a lower population density than many areas of the US, and yet they manage to have one of the best rail systems in the world. The rest of Europe is also rapidly catching up. Even the UK, not exactly known for having the finest rail system in Europe, is far superior than the US when it comes to rail travel.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In a few years time, once things are sorted out and some real money is invested, we will, again have the finest rail system in Europe. At the moment there are a few problems, but most are symptomatic of having the most intensively used system in Europe.
Simon
Swindon UK
The SRA's plan however is a disaster. It ignores the UK's 3 largest bottleneck's, namely Birmingham New Street, Cardiff Central, and Leeds, and spends way too much on cosmetic changes to South London Commuter services. That is no way to run a railway.
"The SRA's plan however is a disaster. It ignores the UK's 3 largest bottleneck's, namely Birmingham New Street, Cardiff Central, and Leeds, and spends way too much on cosmetic changes to South London Commuter services. That is no way to run a railway."
I think my compatriot James is being a bit harsh. The London commuter area (which extends up to 60-70 miles from London) is the railways' biggest market, so these lines are bound to get a lot of priority. For example, the Thameslink 2000 plan, if built, will give London something like the Paris RER from several lines extending 50-70 miles north through to several 50-70 miles south, with upgraded track, signalling and stations. That's hardly just cosmetic.
As to bottlenecks -- Leeds has just been rebuilt; Birmingham has had some work done already; and Cardiff isn't really on the way to anywhere except places further west in South Wales. None of these places is on either of the two premier main lines (the East Coast and West Coast), though they are very important junctions on the main cross-country route (which is the worst time-keeping performer). After the London commuters, the next biggest market is the main lines radiating from London. Cross-country services are down the list. And finally, the worst bottleneck of all is Borough Market Junction, next to London Bridge station -- and relieving that is a major part of the Thamesling 2000 scheme.
What is true, of course, is that Britain hasn't got any brand new purpose built high speed lines like Japan, France and (to some extent) Germany have got. Nor are we likely to get any, though the Channel Tunnel high speed link *is* under construction at last, to let Eurostar run at full speed from Paris all the way to London.
On the general issue, I believe that 500 miles is probably the maximum distance over which trains can compete with airlines even with an expensive, completely new ROW. In Europe, many intercity distances are in that range. On lines of 19th century origins, even if upgraded, it's probably 250 miles maximum. There's still lots of good business to be had in Europe over that sort of range. But even then, beware the low-cost airlines -- in the wake of 11 September, the dinosaur national airlines are struggling, but Ryanair and EasyJet are expanding like crazy. I always use EasyJet to Scotland, even though I'm a railfan -- I haven't the time to take 5-6 hours each way.
Actually Birmingham New Street, Leeds and Cardiff Central are the three worst anywhere in Britain BY THE SRA'S OWN STATISTICS. Yes, worse than Clapham Junction, much worse than Borough or Mitcham, and hundreds of times worse than Blackfriars.
The London project which actually needs doing is the Chelsea - Hackney Line (New Yorkers, read Second Avenue). Thameslink 2000 and Crossrail are both very expensive ways of doing expletive all, with certain options messing up the Underground in so doing. Getting from Liverpool Street or Moorgate to the extremities of Norfolk will be just the same. And please no-one mess with my Chiltern Lines, except for making the Birmingham train quicker!!!
Leeds has indeed has had some minor alterations to the fabric of the station, as has Birmingham New Street, but in neither case has this tackled the real problem: the lack of approach tracks. Birmingham New Street could easily be dealt with by expansion at Birmingham Snow Hill and tearing up that silly tramway they've turned the Snow Hill - Wolverhampton main line into.
Cardiff could be easily sorted by reinstating 3 passenger routes:
Hereford - Hay - Brecon - Neath - Swansea
Abergavenny - Dowlais - Merthyr - Neath - Swansea
Pontypool - Quaker's Yard - Neath - Swansea
"Further into West Wales" includes Swansea, Carmarthen, Neath, Bridgend, Port Talbot and Milford Haven, so one can hardly say there is nothing there. Also the Irish ferries leave from Fishguard and Swansea.
Fytton, you must be from the South East to even be able to use Easyjet. They only use Luton and Stansted as far as I am aware. From Birmingham I'd be in Newcastle before I could get to Stansted. And that's despite the Newcastle train operating a silly route via Tamworth and other places which really are not on the way.
I probably am too much of a railfan. I am currently trying to work out how to do Ostend (Belgium) - Jammu (India) by train...
>>> The railroad didn't die a natural death in the US; it deliberately killed off by those who have a vested financial interest in building highways and airports. <<<
Those with a vested interest in building highways includes everyone who owns a car and wants to travel in it. I can not go along with the idea that passenger railroads were deliberately killed off. They died as Americans found travel by car more pleasant, and travel by air much quicker than rail in the post WWII time. If there had been as many rail fans calling for better railroads as there were car owners calling for better highways, there would have been government subsidies for the railroads.
>>> For distances of under 500 miles or so, high-speed rail has the capability of being faster than the airlines, certainly faster than driving, <<<
400 miles would be an outside limit, and would be reduced by the number of intermediate stops which would reduce average speed. Below 400 miles, the automobile becomes more of a competitor, particularly for family travel when the cost of driving is compared to buying three or four tickets.
>>> Contrary to what some would have you believe, Amtrak isn't pulling empty trains all over the US; most long-distance Amtrak trains are quite full. <<<
Trains that run once a day that are full do not prove anything. Compare the number of passengers per day traveling between New York and San Francisco by train and the number traveling by air, and it is very hard to say Amtrak's long distance trains are successful.
>>> France actually has a lower population density than many areas of the US, and yet they manage to have one of the best rail systems in the world <<<
It isn't population density that counts, it is distance. The western European trains are really no longer distance than the regional rail advocated for the NEC and other places east of the Mississippi river (i.e. Paris to Marseille 4hrs). The longest distance trains in France are no where near the distance from Chicago to New York. The longer distance international trains are popular because of the large price differential between rail and flying (i.e. Paris to Rome, 15 hrs $125.00 2nd Class rail, by air: $539.55). The foreign truly long distance trains are the trans-Siberian express and those found in India, but no one ever looks there for inspiration.
Tom
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!
"Those with a vested interest in building highways includes everyone who owns a car and wants to travel in it."
There's a world of difference between the public having a legitimate interest in highways being built and the highway and automobile industries having a vested interest in ONLY highways being built. I drive, and I want some of my tax money to go to the maintenance of roads, and even some new road construction where NEEDED. But I also want some of my money to go to urban transit, which I use every day, and some to go to intercity passenger trains as well, because I use those too.
"Trains that run once a day that are full do not prove anything."
But the trains run only once a day because Amtrak has only enough train cars to operate that many trains, because they get as much money in a year as is spent on clearing ice and snow from the interstate and federal highways. So that doesn't DISprove anything, either. What IMHO does prove something is that those long-distance trains are full despite high sleeper ticket prices that scare a lot of passengers away! If Amtrak had enough equipment, they could charge less and attract more passengers, but since they physically CAN'T carry more passengers, they make the (IMHO, perfectly rational) decision to charge more.
You don't need any new-fangled hi-speed rail sustems. You just need air travlers to pay the true cost of flying. Many consumers will gladly pay the same amount or less for a trip that is much more comfortable, convienent and safe, even if it takes a few hours longer.
I believe it was a Washington paper that sent four reporters to NY via four modes of transportation:
- Air = 2 hr 42 min
- Train = 3 hr 21 min
- Car = 3 hr 48 min
- Bus = 4 hr 55 min (I think he just missed the planned bus)
Mr rt__:^)
Wouldnt it be nice if someone can make a LIRR BVE complete with switches and stations. There could be more then one LIRR route for all the different branches i wonder if anyone is doing this at the moment. Whats ur opinons of this?
Making a route will require many many rides on the line with a huge notpad or a very good quality video camera. After that, depending on how long a line is, the compilation starts. A very grueling ordeal just working with notes.
During more research, I found several paragraphs from various books and old Times clippings to quote that the Smith Street Line was bridged rather than tunneled at Gowanus Canal in a cost-saving measure.
Viewing the art-deco viaduct and the extensive concrete work that went into the steelwork, as well as the truss bridges, it is hard to believe that a simple cut and cover directly under Smith Street and 9th Street with a underwater tunnel would have been more expensive than the ornate viaduct that exists today. Do not forget the property that was forced to be cleared in order to construct that gigantic four track elevated approach to the canal.
Comments?
During more research, I found several paragraphs from various books and old Times clippings to quote that the Smith Street Line was bridged rather than tunneled at Gowanus Canal in a cost-saving measure.
Viewing the art-deco viaduct and the extensive concrete work that went into the steelwork, as well as the truss bridges, it is hard to believe that a simple cut and cover directly under Smith Street and 9th Street with a underwater tunnel would have been more expensive than the ornate viaduct that exists today. Do not forget the property that was forced to be cleared in order to construct that gigantic four track elevated approach to the canal.
It might depend on the canal's depth. If the canal is deep enough, a tunnel would have to go very deep, in the process making cut-and-cover construction on either side of the canal impractical. Soil conditions also might play a part.
I was always amazed that when I lived in New York until 1954, the dad always told me the IND line was closest to a complete subway system since all seven (I think) of its lines stayed underground except for only two stops---Smith & 9th Street on the GG, and aforementioned stopo and 4th Avenue on the F. I don't think any subway system in the world had such a high percentage of underground stops as the New York Indenpendent System.
The Broad Street Line in Phila. (SEPTA) has every station in the subway except Fern Rock (the last stop at the north end. Only about three or four blocks of the line is out of the tunnel.
The rise of the land east of Fourth Ave. in the Park Slope area may have also been a factor. I believe the Gowanus' depth at Hamilton Ave. is about 40 feet, so any tunnel (and station) at Smith-9th would have had to have been 50 feet down there. With the rise of the land, the tracks would also have had to grade upwards or a station like 7th Ave. would have been as deep underground as some of the Washington Heights stations on the `A' or the 1/9.
By running it on a viaduct, the tracks only have to slope down a little after crossing the canal, since the land comes up at Fourth Ave. and meets the tracks, sending the line back underground without requiring a steep grade.
Sounds like the "simulator" isn't really a sim but just some video...
On the Red Line between Friendship Heights and Grosvenor
January 1999: Relays fail, trains begin manual operation temporarily, we are treated to runs going no slower than 60 MPH daily
Throught 1999 and 2000: Relays continue to fail and Metro keeps postponing the return to ATO, trains continue to run over 60 MPH and I see them topping out at 74, 75, and even 77 MPH.
November, 2000: Trains return to automatic, trains hardly ever break 50 the whole way. I get the occasional run in manual when we do see high speeds.
About a month ago: Someone puts a 35 MPH restriction for northbound trains as the exit the portal at Rockville Pike and Pooks Hill Road (near Grosvenor). Cars on MD 355 (including an Orion I) go as fast as the train.
Today: We run manually starting at Medical Center, top out at 71 MPH, then have to slow to 35 for the speed restriction.
Now, what on earth is Metro doing there? I haven't seen any indication of trackwork like what they were doing between Cleveland Park and Tenleytown in past years.
Sounds like the NYCTA is taking over
I hope not. Then again, it took them who knows how long to do that other trackwork between Cleveland and Van Ness and Van Ness and Tenleytown, maybe they will advance closer to Medical Center and the slowdown will be in that part of the tunnel, which while still exciting, isn't as exciting as the leap over the Beltway.
But at least you still have those amazing speed runs on the inner and southeastern Green Line. You do...right?
Inner green line isn't too spectacular, southeastern rates but still isn't as good as red.
Tommorrow, myself, Thurston, BMTman, DaWheelFlange and several others are going to the Amherst Rail Society's model train show.
Will give a report on either Sunday or Monday.
Has anyone ever heard anything about renting abandoned stations from the Transit Authority. Specifically the 18th street station on the Lex line?
I thought it might make a nice restaurant/bar. THICK glass walls along the platform edge.
I really like that idea. I'm not sure who you'd contact about renting TA property, but you could probably find out by asking one of the candy/newspaper vendors in the subway.
Try MTA Real Estate & Concessions. Unless they've moved (to 2 Broadway?) they're still at 347 Madison Avenue, New York NY 10017.
David
C'mon, that place is already in use as a street pharmacy. :)
How about a Subway Sandwich franchise?
Nothing like a company store on company property!
Since it would be on an IRT line, they should have sandwich names such as Hi-V, Lo-V, Redbird, etc.:-)
This station's late-1970's decrepit, graffiti-spewed, urine-soaked, steel-dusted, crack-vialed, homeless-camped, paint-chipped, water-stained, rat-gnawed look could be preserved for a really unique theme restaurant.
Of course for the more conventional-minded, a fully cleaned and restored 18th St. eatery could be established. Either would be welcome.
As an aside, my father worked at this station as an attendant while going to night school during the early 1940's.
The crossunder can be restored.
There was talk of doing that at City Hall, and Giuliani shot it down, citing safety concerns.
Now that we have a train buff as a mayor, I can see something happening at City Hall station. I think it's realistic to say that Bloomberg wouldn't mind having a station/restaurant right under his office.
As far at the idea for 18th/Lex street, I had the same idea when I was in college, and still thought I'd be something someday. I thought it would make a great urban night club, keeping the graffitti on the walls as it is today, appealing to city youth.
Maybe the new mayor will allow rides around the loop on the 6 once again.
Already there......it's now LEGAL to ride the (6) thru the loop...a GO a few years ago prohibited T/O's and C/R's from removing passengers who WANTED to go thru the loop. (The exact information is in the Subway FAQ on this site.)
Stuart, RLine86Man
How about the South Ferry Inner loop. Is that one legal too?
NOPE. That one is still ILLLEGAL. And even worse, if a T/O or C/R were to catch you still inside the train at the Green, there's a cop at the mouth of the Joralemon St. tubes...all the T/O or C/R would have to do is dragggggggggg you to 'em and have 'em write up a ticket for TRESPASSING (or arrest you for CRIMINAL TRESPASSING).
Stuart, RLine86Man
Why would the City hall loop be legal but the Inner South Ferry loop not? grade crossings? Makes no sense.
It's just the stupidity of the TA...they consider the (5) South Ferry loop as non-revenue trackage...even though the City Hall (6) loop is also non-revenue trackage...I suppose Dave Pirmann or da Train Dude can explain it better (or maybe even Alex L.--since that's his turf).
Stuart, RLine86Man
The FAQ on this site now says that permission to ride through City Hall station has been suspended for security reasons. See http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/eastside/cityhall.html.
And they certainly spend enough time sitting at BB telling everyone to get off. If they want to arrest you, you can't say you haven't been warned.
First of all, the page you refer to is not the FAQ. Secondly, it's wrong. The offending statement has been removed. I have a copy of the order at home that declares it legal to ride the loop. If I can find it I'll add it to the real FAQ.
Secondly the FAQ is only as good as people who help me keep it up to date (there are none, at this time). Volunteer to maintain a FAQ page today!
Sorry. I started at an FAQ page and followed links.
How does the C/R select the line, route, etc. for the AAS on the R142/143? What do the menus, options, etc. look like on the console?
Basically step by step how do you get the proper announcements to play.
Thanks
Shawn.
I forgot exactly, but the only thing I remember from a cab ride around the loop (I'll find out more today) is that there's a 4 digit combo. As I recall, they have nothing to do with the route number. The T/O had a little pad of paper and he selected the 4 digits that were in his pad. And when we got to BB, it said "This is a Bronx bound 6 train, the next stop is Canal street." I will try to find out more today, as I am going fanning near the 6.
AAS syncronization requires your motor key. It's simple to make minor changes...changing routes is easy as Clayton suggests...knowing the code for the route, you press the up and down arrows for the four columns and accept. Problem is that the maps inside will light up that the route map is not in use. CI Peter
I like programing those trains. My T/O's don't like to touch the computer.
Look at who we're dealing with! We got this employment because we can shine a flashlight into one ear and the light emits from the other. When I was given special instructions to open all R142 battery boxes, a supervisor stopped me. I informed him I had special instructions from the car desk, explained the details but he wasn't satisfied. I handed him the written orders...he read it aloud like a third grader v e r y s l o w l y. So understand that punching into the TOD is still FAR MORE TECH than your associates can comprehend. We have to work and get along with everyone...they depend upon us to get things done and we watch our backs so as not to get blown up. CI Peter
This sounds so insanely simple. I can understand the strip maps not working for any route besides the one the strip map is printed for. It seems rediculous that the train not be able to make the proper announcements, show the right information on the display inside, or be out of sync with the stations. With 4-digit codes there's more than enough codes to program common diversions, etc. If they aren't already ready now, the C/R should be able to change the code in the middle of the route and skip ahead or backwards to get the announcements into sync with the stations. I was wondering if the was a better way of making the AAS work than it does now, but was lacking information on how it works currently. I don't think it could get any simpler than putting in the correct code.
If it's not there already, I really think the TOD needs a few more "buttons"... "<<" Skip backwards through announcements, ">>" Skip fowards through announcements and ">" Play, to resume the automatic announcements.
Another good option would be if you could select the station you're originating from and terminating to, incase you do not have a 4-digit code that is programmed correctly. With the originating code, if your AAS gets out of sync you could just put in the code for the station that is next, and let the AAS to it and continue from that point. Also, with the originating code you can have a train start the announcements for the correct station if for some reason it has been put in somewhere other than one of your terminals. That feature overlaps with my Fast Foward idea above. With the terminating station, you could adjust your strip map, if you are running on the line it was printed for, and the position of the "Last Stop" announcment. Of course you could just have a 4-digit code that covers the most common occurances.
This all sounds like a lot but is not really too complicated. I don't know how much sense it makes to anyone else, but these things seems like a good idea to me.
Anyone know what the media type and storage capacity is for the AAS or for the train software in general if the AAS is intergrated?
Interesting stuff.
Shawn.
There are a few pictures in the R(omeo)-142 pages of this site of the TOD and CRD panels. This should help you in, well, anyway you need. As soon as I actually find them, I'll post the URL for 'em.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I couldn't find any on this site that acutally show what the actual screens that are displayed on the TOD/CRD look like.
Shawn.
At one time, early in the delivery process, there WERE pictures of the aforementioned control panels...Dave, where are they????
Stuart, RLine86Man
Had a cab problem with software and dumped power to reset. TOD came up just like our computers: processor was a 90 mHz 486. Whoopee!! Media storage??? Just memory....details still not available. It is and has to be simple. As for strip maps........stupid!!!!!! Poor design choice...it is only for one line and if the trainset is shifted, all there is...is an LED lit display to note the map is out of use. Part of T/O training on R142s is to AAS sync...when #2s are brought in for SM, they go one station bveyond Wakefield so it runs backwards. All based on wheel diameter so when wheels get cut I cannot recalibrate the system........dumb!!!!!!!! It will take time to get all the tools together to mmaintain these trainsets. Right now, it lies in the hands of the vendors. CI Peter
The easiest and best way to insure that station announcements are correct (not counting errors in prerecorded announcements) is to abandon the current system of determining the proper announcement (from the moment the TA employee detailed the scheme the first day the 142's went into passenger service on the 6. I knew it would be inadequate). A small transponder should be installed a few feet priorto each station and just beyond any track switch for which a train can change tracks telling the approaching train what station, which track the train is on, and which direction the train is heading and time of day/day of week(Trigger the proper anouncement on transfers. ex: q dimond does not run on weekends). These transponders would be very low frequency radio wave and don’t cost much. They are just like a beacon repeating the same info over and over. A more advanced model could even trigger pre-recorded announcements about train delays. Such as sick passenger/police action etc notifying passengers.
A simple touch screen user interface similar to the interface utilized on the MVM should be put in place. The T/O would simply select the line the train should be signed for, the beginning and ending terminal. No need for complicated 4 digit codes. The interface will contain a listing of all possible stations for the particular line selected by the T/O.
For example a brooking bound 2 train is sitting in Wakefield terminal
The T/O simply selects from the interface
What Line? 2
What is the current station? Wakefield
What ending point? Flatbush/brooklyn College
There is no need for the T/O to do anything else.
If the train moves from the express track to the local track for instance, the transponder in the tunnels will change the next station announcement to the proper local station announcement instead of the express station announcement if the train would have remained on its normal route.
If the station announcement ever gets out of sync. THE T/O would simply select the proper station from the touch screen user interface.
The strip map should be abandoned. They are a well-intentioned idea, but unnecessary. A LED/LCD strip map would add flexibility, but probably cost too much.
All the above could be added with a simple software upgrade. Is it true that the R-142/r-142a/r-143 are controlled by windows based systems?
Windows didn't flag up on the power up so I have to assume it's a propriertary program. Highly unlikely that any additional systems will be in place in the next five years. R142s 'know' their position solely by odometer (in inches.) CI Peter
I doubt they would use Windows or DOS even. They might have a proprietary operating system that runs on PC hardware. It would be interesting to find our how the software is written, what OS and programming language is used. Who do we have to beat up at Bombardier or Kawasaki for this info? :)
BTW, storage space shouldn't really be a concern. Solid state hard drives are getting popular and cost relatively little compared to the total cost of the cars. 512MB solid state HD, $800... 1GB, $1,700... 2GB $2100. These don't have moving parts and do not suffer from vibration damage. I don't think the recordings of the station names will really take up too much space... They could be recorded in 8-bit mono in some low sample rate and still sound good for playback over the train's PA.
Shawn.
My bet would be either embedded QNX or Linux ... for "commercial systems" you want your "code" embedded in EPROM so that it doesn't fall victim to peecee type anomolies and let's face it, Windows CE just eats too much to be practical for "embedded systems" ... A *lot* of "industrial control" runs on QNX and embedded Linux ...
Or it could be plain assembler for the CPUs in use ... but Windows is NOT sufficiently stable for railroad use or any other "life critical" applications. Just not done.
But there is one exception, of course........the MVMs software, albeit, propreitary (however that's speeeeeled :-P) it may be, it's still rooted in WinEnTee (NT).
Well ... if a vending machine craps the bed, it ain't going to kill anyone ... Microsoft does not qualify for "life critical applications" such as running a train, medical equipment, yadayada ...
Moo. :-D
(My friend in SI worked for one of their Gateway stores...he hated their 'puters, too)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Microsoft software is some of the most unreliable software on the market. Corporations are willing to use it for their desktops, but not for their backend critical systems. It has been only in the last few years that mstf has infultrated the low level server market. Linix is far more stable. UNIX is a rock of reliability
UNIX is the backbone of Linux.....I think....Kevin's more....experienced than I am with EUNICHS {the Roman guards who'd have their "thangs" cut off :-D) (UNIX) and Lieucks (Linux). Ruff, Ruff. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
If you really give it some thought, it's an INCREDIBLY sad statement that a 30 year old operating system still kicks butt on the hottest, latest "technology" ... shows you what hosers they are out in Redmond and yet people STILL give the boy money for the latest and shiniest. I guess you really CAN polish a turd. :)
*lmfao* Guess so :-D
Amusing how government just keeps snapping up more Redmond while corporates are embracing IBM and Linux. Go figger. Banks, well ... many STILL run OS/2 for their own criticals ...
But it still begs the question of what ROM-based OS is operating da trains ... it definitely ain't winders ...
Maybe it's propriterary (I know, it's misspelled...so sue me!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
The reason is quite simple why microsoft software holds it's own in the marketplace. Microsoft made a major push a few years back to certify the masses in the IT feild. The end result is that an IT profesional who spent good time and money obtaining his MCSE(and now making nice bucks as an NT administrator) will not abandon microsoft. The IT administrator will not purchace linix desktops.
We all know how microsoft windows/office/ie became the market leader.
Back in the early 90's microsoft strong armed PC manufactures to bundle Windows 3.0 with new PC's. MS DOS was in short supply for those manufactures who refused to pay extra(plus charge customers extra) for windows 3.0 .
Intel strong armed Gateway a few years back in retailation for gateway using AMD CPU's in some of thier computers. Intel alocated CPU to other manufactured at the expense of gateway. As a result AMD chips are ussually found today in mostly cheap computers (computers built on outdated mother boars that are not expandable) Even though the fastest AMD chip is faster than the fastest Intel chip.
The microsoft Intel alliance(wintel) have conspired over the last decade to spur users to upgrade thier PC + Hardware. Microsoft adds "new" features that require increasing more powerful computers. Windows XP requires a substancially more memory to run than it's predecesors. Windows 95/98/me require 32 meg of memory. Windows XP needs close to 100 meg to oporate.
"E"XP"ee" requires (not recommended-----REQUIRES) at minimum, 128 MB of RAM. Before the rest of my computers in the firm's network are upgraded to ExPee, I have to add 192 MB of RAM (per the partners' orders) so that the rest of these 'puters have at least 256 MB when going to ExPee.
Stuart, RLine86Man
What's sad is that Winders is getting MORE unstable and less secure with each new "horking up" ... MiniMe stunk until XPee came along. I wonder if those MVM machines have port 5000 (Universal Plug and Pray) open. Betcha they do and if so, I can make them spit cards until they run out. :)
Hopefully the TA is using encrypted VPN's between the boxes.
Hmmmmmmmmm...........makes you WONDER doesn't it Kevin????????? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hopefully the TA is using encrypted VPN's between the boxes.
Forget the virtual, they'd be jackasses not to use private lines between them. Even so, I fear that it is far too easy for someone to tap into an MVM through other channels.
Mark
Being as it's NTee - just a matter of time. Ended up walking past the "Apple Bank" on (I think) Park Avenue on Kissmoose eve and on their sidewalk TV screens, it said "Error - Event log full, system halted" on all the displays in their lobby ... only NTee can fill a disk with "Dr Watson" error logs (much to IBM's dismay). Bonus points for the bank being named after ANOTHER operating system. I'm sure some crafty kid with a mag strip writer could buffer overflow the MVM witches. Then again, vending machines ain't life-critical so I guess Winders is OK. Wonder if they'll be upgrading to XPee? :)
Vending machines that just happen to take credit cards. I've still got to snap a shot of the MVMs at Cortlandt (BMT.) Maybe tomorrow.
Mark
Better yet even, they could use some kind of text to voice character recongition....it'd make for an even easier programming system, and can be changed easily.
WinXP and OfficeXP both offer Speech routines, one of which is the above-------Text to Speech recongition....and it isn't THAT bad either....I've even used it to "simulate" the 142 female voice....not that desimiliar, I must say....(even though ExPee STILL sucks major arse!!)
Stuart, RLine86 and WhenExPeeMan
Computer voice simulation programs have come a long way in the last 10 years. They do not sound like robots anymore. This would allow greater flexibility for updating station announcements vs. calling in the actors to record new announcements.
This would be a huge help with the current many-b and 9/11 changes
Yeah, I'd LOVE to know who does the "watch the closing doors please" on the 143's ... sounds EXACTLY like "Mister Ed," the talking horse.
Announcers for Bloomberg Radio did the announcements in the R-142/142A and R-143 cars.
David
Kewl. :-D Imagine if it had been Howard Stern? *lmao*
Stuart, RLine86Man
Bloomberg hired Mister Ed? :)
Seriously - if you get a chance to ride a 143, you'll note that it really does sound like Mr Ed saying "watch the closing doors, Wilbur."
Dumped a system today to see if the 'smart card' unit would wake up. Memory if it serves me right read 16,512 kB flash. CI Peter
Don't be so hasty about the O.S.
The metrocard vending machines use Windows NT. Last year, when someone forgot to change to daylight savings time, I saw that it had booted back to NT. (Scary, isn't it----it's just a matter of time before for a hacker gets into the system)
Probably it's better we don't know what the R142 cars use---unfriendly extremists may use it against us).
There's no way to "enter" the system unless you hotwire an connection to the Kernel.
Stuart, RLine86Man
R142/A use Linux.
"Lie"nu"cks"? Cool.....so that means that it's pretty secure, right Kev?
Stuart, RLine86Man
If configured properly ... at least ya don't have Billy sneaking in behind you and resetting all of your security options to "default=none." :)
Right. :) Moo.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hey! You're supposed to do two bars of music before that moo. :)
*lmao* I'm not as musically inclined as I'd like to be :-D
*plays the "Intel" theme* Moo :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Intel theme is just one bar ... they couldn't afford the cover charge. Might wanna listen to that Gateway starter again so's you don't forget the notes.
Dum-ba-dum-da-dum-dum-dum-dum-da-dum moo ...
>>>...moo ... <<<
Hey, that's Gateway. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry, all of the copyrighted code I write says "Moo." internally. First registrar of copyrights document containing it goes back to 1983. I think a certain Texas computer company owes me some money. But I think the commercial's cute - constantly hearing from customers who want to know how much they paid me because the VOICE of the cow sounds just like me as well.
>>>I think a certain Texas computer company owes me some money<<<
Gateway's from South Dakota. What does Compaq owe you?
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoops ... got my Dells and Gateways confused ... they're in San Diego now ...
Dambdible pieces of crap have more software variations than Carter made Liver pills. Every little doodad has its own software and every piece of hardware/software isn't compatable with the last batch. #2 line revision is not good...I'll leave the news to Stef. The only railroad braking system manufacturer around is WabCo....so guess who the TA vendor is...and who's brakes are now having problems on the 'Pride of Hiroshima?' I cross the bridge over the Danmube Monday morning with no regrets. CI Peter
Then what do you do when they run express on the local? The C/R should have the option of entering the starting station and a "skip next" hot key.
They sort of do, they can edit out stops. They did that on the 2 when they were skipping Park Place. The LED wasn't lit for it and at chambers it said next stop is fulton.
Imagine that, if R142/A were to have Windows as their operating system....the TO would be shocked to find the Blue Screen of Doom instead of his route, and line info on his screen.
R142.exe caused an invalid fault error in module 14561741671456:56868978
Wasn't Bill Gates in town a couple of days ago?
It's the BLEW SKREEN OF DEATH, fyi.
But that WOULD be funny.......callin' into ComCent for Tech Support.......................HA!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I can see it now ... "ummm ... have you tried rebooting your train?" ... "grab the shoe paddle and lift ALL of the shoes ... then drop them down and try again" ... "have you forgotten your T/O password? Well then, just hit the escape key." Yadayada ... phone banks of clueless Jennifers are standing by at command to urge you to reboot again or reload your conductor ...
*lmfao* And while the T/O's on hold for Tech Support from ComCent, they play a very BAD rendition of "The Train Is Coming" (by Shaggy :) )
Moo.............neiiiiiigh.
Stuart, RLine86Man
"Your ride is important to us ... please remain seated for the next available operator" ...
"THIS TRAIN HAS PERFORMED AN ILLEGAL OPERATION AND WILL SHUT DOWN"
Sheese! My computer comes up with that stupid message all the time!
Chuck Greene
Brings new meaning to the word "crash" ...
Can one of you subway geniuses give me a little help. I'm flying into EWR and staying at the InterContinental Barclay at 111 East 48th Street. I think there is a train line coming from EWR into NYC now - wasn't there when I was last in NYC. How do I best get from EWR to the IC Barclay? Looks like Grand Central is about 6 blocks away maybe and some stations on 51st street too?
Thanks in advance.
Can one of you subway geniuses give me a little help. I'm flying into EWR and staying at the InterContinental Barclay at 111 East 48th Street. I think there is a train line coming from EWR into NYC now - wasn't there when I was last in NYC. How do I best get from EWR to the IC Barclay? Looks like Grand Central is about 6 blocks away maybe and some stations on 51st street too?
The monorail that runs among the EWR terminals now goes to a train station served by New Jersey Transit trains on the NE Corridor line. There is regular service to Penn Station in Manhattan.
Then E train from Penn to Lexington Ave I guess?
Correct. Connect with the 6 at 53rd Street.
Actualy, forget the connection. It's walking distance to your location from 53/Lex.
Take the monorail to the train station, and grab the first New Jersey Transit (not Amtrak) train to New York Penn Station.
When you get to New York Penn Station, look for the E train uptown to Queens, and take it to the Lexington Avenue station. This will put you at Lexington and 53rd and you can walk the 5 short blocks south to 48th Street.
Have fun.....
Depending on your preferenes and the amount of luggage you have, you might be better off taking a bus from Penn Station NY. The Lex/53 Station is rather deep and even though the escalators carry you up to almost street level, it is a very crowded and cramped station. So if you want, leaving Penn Sta use the escalator to 7th Ave. and 32nd Street (the main entrance to Penn). Cross 7th Ave. immediately and walk east on 32nd Street about and half block. Right next to a shoe repair shop and St. Francis of Assisi Church there is a bus stop where the M4 and Q32 begin, so you pretty much be assured of a seat. Take either bus (both start at the same stop) to 48th and Madison Ave., and walk east one block to Park Ave.
Keeping in mind buses in Midtown are not as fast as the subway. It then becomes a question over which you value more: speed of comfort.
I've been playing with this question for a while. Before I begin I don not mean to offend or make a mokery of this tragedy. If you do feel offended do not e-mail me or respond to this question. If you do feel that you have a responce to this senario then I would apreciate your responce.
The City of New York gave you 15 billion dollars to make an expansion plan for a subway line going into 5WTC. But a Cesna has crashed into the South tower. Luckily no one was killed(the pilot jumped out)but you must repair the damage done. After spending the money for the repairs to the tower, what will you build and how much it will cost?
Considering how strong those walls were, the Cessna would probably bounce off the building.
Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC. I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been, but ultimately, Bin Laden and the Taliban scum are still to blame. What ever happened to the Taliban anyway? ;) You never hear from them anymore. HMMM...
God Bless the USA!
Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC.
Obviously, a 767 is larger and traveling faster than a Cessna ever could (remember F=MA?).
<< Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC. I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been >>
ROTFL! The force behind a fully loaded 767 travelling at 300 knots is beyond belief. Pigs got it right. F= MA and in this case, there was a helluva lot of M and A was very high as well.
"I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been"
They were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 (the biggest plane at the time of design). This they did. They were NOT designed to withstand the fire of tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel. A pricnipal designer, now in his 70s, was interviewed in the New Yorker last October and said that never came up in the discussions.
Engineers have mostly been quoted as saying that to withsatnd that sort of fire you'd make a building so expensive no one would pay the rent. But (see today's Times) they are still trying to learn lessons about how to make buildings more resistant to massive fire.
They were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 (the biggest plane at the time of design). This they did. They were NOT designed to withstand the fire of tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel. A pricnipal designer, now in his 70s, was interviewed in the New Yorker last October and said that never came up in the discussions.
Fire never came up in the discussions??? What drugs were these people using??? News flash: Believe it or not, when airplanes crash, they often burn!
"Fire never came up in the discussions??? What drugs were these people using??? News flash: Believe it or not, when
airplanes crash, they often burn!"
Not the same drugs you evidently have been taking...:0)
Just kidding. But airplanes strikes on buildings are extraordinarily rare; fires in buildings do not reach jet fuel temperatures. When a designer builds a building, he/she has a finite budget and must ensure that the most likely threats are competently addressed, then the next most likely threats, then the next etc.
The result is a very good building which will respond well to all but the most rare occurrances. It reflects the fact that you can make a good decision and sometimes still have a bad outcome. What would the designer not be able to do if he/she had to pump all the available $$ into fireproofing? Would structural supports or wind resistance have suffered? Would the heating systems have been skimped on? Electrical work? You're focusing on one tree and missing the whole picture.
Now, in some instances extensive threat defense is justified. A cask for carrying spent nuclear reactor fuel is designed and built and tested to withstand 70 mph crashes, 90 minutes in 2,000 degree fires, getting broadsided by railroad locomotives and surviving free falls of 100+ feet onto bare ground. That's appropriate.
There's an extensive body of science dealing with this - it's called probabilistic risk assessment (PRA).
I encourage you to read up on it if you are curious.
I understand that there have to be some judgments made as to what are and are not realistic risk scenarios. For instance, automobile air bags aren't likely to provide much protection if a vehicle slams into a solid object at 100 mph. That's not a design flaw, as there's no practical way of making a vehicle capable of surviving such an enormous impact, and most real-world crashes are much less severe.
In the case of the World Trade Center, the designers supposedly made it capable of withstanding the impact of a 707. But they should have realized that the physical impact of a jetliner would, in all likelihood, be followed by a major fire. You can't have one without the other, so to speak. If they had decided that there was no practical way of protecting the buildings and their occupants against a jet-fuel fire, so be it. But saying that the buildings could withstand a 707, while knowing that they could not survive the ensuing fires, is pretty disingenuous.
A 767 carries more fuel than a 707. Perhaps they built it to withstand the fire from 707 fuel, but not 767 fuel (I realize the fuel is the same, one just has more of it).
And also there is the consideration that the most likely scenario for an aircraft striking a building is an aircraft on its descent, not one taking off - an aircraft that is therefore likely to have a significantly lower fuel load.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not really. The designers were looking at an accidental strike, and the amount of fuel carried could vary - see other responses to your post. Admitedly nobody was thinking about the use of a large jetliner as a weapon - not even the government was thinking about that.
So it was definitely not disingenuous.
According to the guy interviewed, he just doesn't remember any discussion of designing for a fire involving a full plane load of jet fuel. They did consider fire involving all the pre-existing combustibles such as office paper, etc. These people were sane, sober, conservative engineers. They just didn't think about it.
In the interview, he was clearly very unhappy about the fact that they hadn't thought about the jet fuel. If they had, they probably couldn't have designed the building to survive forever, but maybe they could have designed it to take a longer time to collape.
It was a very interesting article. Sorry I can't cite the exact reference.
Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC. I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been,
Um, think about it. A Cessna weighs less then 10,000 lbs., fully loaded. Meanwhile, the passengers alone on a 767 widebody jetliner weigh more then 10,000 lbs. (Assuming average weight is 160 lbs., 16,000 lbs.) Add in enough fuel to go from NY to LA nonstop, the plane's body, wings and engines and you have a piece of metal weighing easily fifty times as much (probably much more) as the Cessna.
And don't forget about the laws of physics: A 767 widebody flying at maximum speed (Mach 0.9something) has exponentially more kinetic energy then a Cessna flying at maximum speed (about half of the 767's). No building short of a bunker designed to withstand a direct nuclear attack could have stood up to that kind of force.
The towers were built just fine--the fault is in the giant airplane crashing into them.
Dan
A 767 widebody flying at maximum speed (Mach 0.9something)
What is the unit of Mach as compared to mph?
Mach 1 is the speed of sound (I don't remember exactly, about 1400 MPH, look it up), Mach 2 is twice the speed of sound, Mach 3 is three times and so on.
The speed of sound varies with temperature and humidity, but... at sea level the generally used figure is Mach 1 = 661.7 knots or 761.5 mph. As you go up in the atmosphere the speed of sound decreases, until at 36,089 feet above sea level Mach 1 = 573.8 knots. At that point a factor called the "geopotential of tropopause" kicks in and the speed of sound no longer decreases. (No, I don't have any understanding of the geopotential of tropopause... perhaps our resident meteorologist, Todd Glickman, can explain.) A Boeing 767 cruises at Mach 0.80 (529.4 knots or 609.2 mph); since this is based on sea level calculations, at altitudes in excess of 36,089 feet this translates into Mach 0.92 at cruising altitude. Please note that Mach is a relative term since the speed of sound varies... the knots or miles per hour figure does NOT change at the higher altitudes!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The ability of an airplane to successfully negotiate the sound barrier varies by altitude as well. Travelling through relatively dense air is a challenge and most military aircraft designed for it can manage high subsonic or perhaps transonic travel at sea level. The SR-71 can do at least Mach 3.4, but that occurs in very thin air at 80,000+ feet.
No, I don't have any understanding of the geopotential of tropopause... perhaps our resident meteorologist, Todd Glickman, can explain
Yeah, but is it contagious? :)
--Mark
What ever happened to the Taliban anyway?
Looks like you're about as ignorant of current events as you are of structural engineering and high school physics.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Taliban reference was a joke.
Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC. I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been,
... Considering the size of those jetliners capable of trans-atlantic flights, I don't think you have enough evidence to put up an argument.
F = M * A
Weight and speed causes a huge difference in the momentum of the object. Those 767's that crashed into the WTC towers could have been capable of gnashing through even the strongest structures in the world. (I was thinking of stone)
The architects of the WTC did pretty well enough building those towers. After all it survived the basement bomb blast, survived a UHAUL truck trying to gash through the basement, and 56 minutes for 2WTC and 1 hr. 40 mins. for 1WTC, which both were 767's.
I don't know what coward will do these things to "try and take down the towers", but it's pretty dumb from the start.
The dramatic difference in the time of the collapse might have been the positioning of the crash.
: (
Two structures, suspending thousands if not millions of tons of weight up to a quarter of a mile into the air and doing so quite well for nearly 30 years, withstanding the forces of time, nature and even having it's foundation damaged to me seems to suggest a structure well designed and well built.
The WTC succombed to forces no man-made structure to date can possibly withstand. If that's your basis for saying they were poorly built, than your expectations are a bit too high.
There is special on TLC right now looking at the very subject of how and why the towers collapsed.
And for those who missed it, it runs again at 1am eastern time ...
I saw it too. It of course relives 9/11 all over again, but at the end of the documentary it explains in detail why the towers collapsed. It also very unusual that the "ground zero" site today closely resembles that same site when everything was cleared and before the towers were constructed.
The TLC special was very well done and imformative. I wish I had my VCR taping it since I stumbled across it when channel surfing.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was sort of unimpressed. Too many talking heads, nothing much that we didn't know already.
It will be rerun this Sunday 2/10/02 at 6pm eastern.
I made the monumental mistake of watching it. I never learn. Whenever I watch anything related to the WTC collapse, I'm due to suffer a sleepless night.
Depending on how often and under what circumstances these events occur, you might not do anything differently than you already do. It would be especially foolish to redirect money away from, and thus neglect, a more common and, ultimately, dangerous threat, in order to deal with a newspaper headline.
The City of New York gave you 15 billion dollars to make an expansion plan for a subway line going into 5WTC. But a Cesna has crashed into the South tower. Luckily no one was killed(the pilot jumped out)but you must repair the damage done.
A Cessna airplane can do no more damage than that incident a while ago where a 15 year old decided to drive it into one of the skyscrapers in Florida (I think). The building hit was an unoccupied law office building, and only shattered the windows, while the building did not suffer any structural damage.
Compare that skyscraper to the South Tower of WTC, and that Cessna will do almost nothing. My Architectural drawing teacher is training to become an airplane mechanic (TONS of ?'s to remember), and he interprets
"Flying a Cessna into a building is like shooting a rubber band into a wall".
He also said something about the wings being no thicker than an aluminum can, which I'm not sure if I heard correctly.
I don't think damage will be a dreadful thing to worry about. But will it be?
an Avro RJ might have more of an affect
What's an Avro RJ?
Here are more links to planes
Here is a pic, the other one didn't come out for some reason.
Very handsome airplane. Configured for STOL, no doubt, for short fields. Similar design philosophy to the Air Force's C-17, in some respects.
Hey, guys! Sorry I haven't been around for awhile, (like you care :)), but I've been busy getting my computer back up. Seems Windows XP got VERY angry when I tried to move my hard disk to my new computer. So, I've reinstalled everything.
Anyhow, I was wondering how you feel about the Daily News' article stating Mayor Bloomberg is putting the number 7 line extension above the 2nd Avenue line on the priorities list. I have mixed feelings. Extending the 7 would be great, but we NEED a 2nd Avenue subway bad.
As for sending Metro North to the WTC site, how about reopening the West Side Freight line?
Just some thoughts.
Tony
PS: Happy New Year if I haven't mentioned it already! :D
Welcome back. Good luck with your new computer.
There's a long thread on this subject.
Bloomberg pushes extension of 7 west and south
Bloomberg may have decided that stimulating development in lower Manhattan (esp the far west side), hit hard by the WTC tragedy, takes higher priority.
Bloomberg calculates that both projects are pretty NIMBY-free (but commercial development has had a NIMBY problem), so the negative consequences of spending money on the 7 extension first are low. He then figures that $1 billion is easier to obtain than $8 billion for Second Av right now. Time is a problem though; I don't think an Environmental Impact Statement has ever been done for that project. I don't know how quickly a project like that can begin.
He is correct in thinking that the presence of a subway line will stumulate development, and will help crush NIMBY opposition to commercial development.
However, MTA is a state agency, not a local agency, so Bloomberg may not be able to re-order priorities by himself.
Yeah, I hear Windows XP is very picky. They say it is very difficult to add new things to it. In fact, I am still hesitant about getting it.
- Lyle Goldman
I have compiled a list of all mayors in New York City History.
The city lied, there were 112, not 108.
Here it is. So no more speculating as to whether a certain subway station may or may not be named after a street named after a mayor.
93.Robert A. Van Wyck 1898-1901
How did the good Mayor pronounce his last name? Some say as a homophone of 'wick', while others (most others, I think), like myself, rhyme it with 'like'.
I myself rhyme it with like, but I used to do it the other way around (and before that differently yet).
I should point out that the City considers Van Wyck to be the 91st mayor. At first I would have thought I added four extra mayors to the list, but the city's own list of mayor's since subjugation in 1898 fails to list Ardolph Kline and Joseph McKee. I assume there are two other mayors about whom the city doesn't want us to know, so I used my own numbering.
Go to the Mayors of New York List as listed in the above message.
OK, who served from 1688-1691 (between #17 and #18 on your list)?
And also, can you identify the ones not on the City's list?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was during the time of Jacob Leisler. I'm not sure of the details, but he was placed in charge of the city's main fort (where One Bowling Green is now) and ended up seizing power in the entire colony in a coup. He was deposed and executed in 1691. During this time, no mayor was appointed, as it was then the job of the royal governor to do that.
Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK I give up. Who are the 4 Mayors?
...and those Mayors are...?
Two of those are Ardolph Kline and Joseph McKee. I do not know who the other two are, I can assume that they mean mayors who came to power through succession and not election (like Gerald Ford).
Ford was a mayor of New York? And I missed it! Darn!
Wouldn't that be ironic?
How about re-compiling the list with the four in a different color, so we can see who the city's hiding easily.
And, there's gotta be a reason why those four aren't on the "official" list.
If I knew who all of them were, I would have done that (I actually would have skipped the numbering when it comes to them).
Do you have the list of the 108? Do they include the two interim Mayors between Walker and LaGuardia?
As to Mayors who have oppressed Brooklyn, would you regard Seth Low as an exception, or do you consider him a quisling?
I don't consider him a Quisling, but I'm really not sure what his role in the subjugation was.
Maybe the official list only counted each person once, so for example if someone was re-elected, he would only count as one person on that list, where as you counted him twice.
Example: Thomas Willett (#1 and #3 on your list), William Russell Grace (#86 and #88). Could there be 4 such people?
I would have thought that, but the city's list of mayors since subjugation in 1898 skips over two people completely, they were not elected, but instead became mayor upon the previous mayor's death or resignation. I assume they're skipping people who became mayors through succession and were not re-elected (like Impelliteri).
Grover Cleveland was the 22nd and 24th president.
4th Avenue Local: How about rating the Mayors of New York. In my opinion, Fiorello LaGuardia was the greatest of them all, and Abe Beame and John Lindsey and William O'Dwyer the worst. Giuliani is in the top five, and so is Koch.
I am surprised that you do not include John Hylan with the worst. This guy waged war again the subways when he was mayor.
Yep Hylan sucks.
Why was South Side Blvd on Staten Island named for him?
The story I heard when I was over there was that Hylan was locally popular for convincing the Port Authority to build the New Jersey Bridges and because he took interest in other public works on Staten Island.
Not too many Mayors have paid much attention to "the Boroughs," no less Staten Island.
I thought about that before I made my list. I figured that vengeful bastard was so low that he shouldn't even be mentioned. In other words, he was below mentioning.
I won't talk about the most recent mayors, but some of the older ones may need to be evaluated in relation to their times. I think most people would consider Wagner to have been a good mayor, especially since he was followed by the disastrous Lindsay, but Wagner presided over the slow decay of the City which helped set things up for JVL. I think Wagner could be characterized for a sort of "clubhouse competence" and labor peace that's been recently admired.
One figure that could stand a lot of scrutiny is LaGuardia. He was very much a man for his time, but not necessarily this one. He was a "real Republican" like Giuliani but unlike Lindsay or Bloomberg. He was born in New York and would probably be considered one of the most "New York" of mayors, but he was raised in the West as an Army brat and had a remarkable diplomatic career before coming back to the City as a virtually carpetbagger.
As to Beame, I don't think anyone remembers him with affection, but he had a very tough and unpleasant job to do, and did, helping set up the prosperity that Ed Koch managed so well.
Koch, LaGuardia and Wagner all had problems in their third terms finding any kind of voice about what they wanted to do, other than stay mayor of New York. The disinterest led to problems that were exacerbated by the mayor that followed, though in O'Dwyer's case, it was more personal corruption that got him into trouble, compared with a perceived decay in the city's service and quality of life that occurred under Lindsey and Dinkins.
In retrospect, Giuliani's future may actually be better politcially because he couldn't serve a third term, based on the experiences of his predacessors. Of course 9/11 would have given him somthing to do for at least the first two years of his new term, but before Sept. 11, there was no question Rudy's mayorality didn't have the same focus his first term did. By 2004-2005, that might have been the case again and he might have found himself in the same situation Koch was in 1988-89, Wagner was in 1964-65 and LaGuardia was in 1944-45 - in office with no defined goals, eroding support and no political hopes of any higher office.
Check out the list again. The mayors that are listed came to power by succession and have done so since the mayor has been elected (as opposed to appointed). The numbering is skipped over them.
it sems that the sony website
webshots on exite
& almost all web locations that allow photo storage ban uploading on other sites
( like posting a picture on this site ) ..
maybe yahoo photos will work ... lets see...
this may not hold
what sites do you use ?? ...
rats!
try aqain..
try again..
Check the URLs you are using. They appear to be incorrect.
Peace,
ANDEE
thankz a million ... for the advice etc...
it seems that my yahoo groups that i own under
los angeles metro blueline yahoo group it seems to works under the file section load it in then upload it to subtalk. & the other post 3 ahead of this one was tested from yahoo photos & it did not hold very long at all . ( failed )
oh well i am still learning this computer stuff & i have a long way to go.
again thankz for the forum Mr. David P. !!
use geocities. There's a trick, that if you add a ".x" to the end of the filename, it'll work because geocities doesn't think it's a picture anymore (but the browser will still figure it out).
so change picture.jpg to picture.jpg.x
I don't know if this works on any other places
i will take your advice
it seems that they blocked my other 2 pics ..
damnit !! it worked for a little while ...
( sigh ) .....
lets see if adding the X in small...x...keeps the pic on & it does not go away ... lol
good luck ... i need it ... lol !!
,4thAvenueLocal on Sat Feb 2 14:27:07 2002.
*************
thankz guy but it dissapeared .... oh well ....
i failed again ...
i must look like a fool ...but at least i tried !!
next time use tripod ?? .... hmmmm...
I'm not interested in posting photos in the text of SubTalk posts, but I'll discuss the free photo sites that I'm using.
I started with Tripod when somebody on Subtalk mentioned it, but I found it excruciatingly slow to open. I then went to Yahoo, but soon discovered Webshots, which I use now because I find it most convenient. I'm open to suggestions from people who are familiar with additional free photo album sites.
I uploaded another Webshots page of scanned 35 mm slides.
chuchubob's Railfan Slides 4
I also uploaded (some of) my vacation pictures from Orlando the third week of January. They are off topic for NYC subways, but have shots of Disney's steam locomotive and the monorail, as well as some shots of the Orlando Amtrak station (1926) with "Seaboard Coast Line" prominently displayed on the front, and the arrival of the southbound Silver Star. Also, to make the page symmetrical, two shots of Cocoa Beach were added.
January photos from Florida
Another review from the Wash Post.
(The writer may have mistaken the 1905 movie showing trolley where the cars are actully cable cars.)
The show is free BTW.
'On Track': How We Got Here From There
National Building Museum Follows the Route Of City Transit From Trolleys to Traffic Jams
By Benjamin Forgey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 2, 2002; Page C05
The year is 1905, and you find yourself boarding an electric trolley in San Francisco. It carries you at an even pace along Market Street for a minute or so in perfect comfort -- no stops, no bumps, no sways from side to side.
Your eyes are treated to a mesmerizing spectacle of weaving urban movement. Errand boys in knickers and suited men by the dozen crisscross in front of you, nonchalantly avoiding moving vehicles of every description: fancy carriages, horse-drawn trucks, automobiles with thin wheels and tall profiles, jampacked trolleys traveling in the opposite direction.
Too quickly, the strange ride comes to an end . . . and the tape rewinds and plays again. The people, the horses and the cars repeat the dance, making the same darting moves in grainy black and white on the television monitor at the National Building Museum.
This entrancing slice of vintage film, lasting maybe a minute and a half, begins the museum's new exhibition, "On Track: Transit and the American City." I gazed through five or six repetitions of the short reel before moving on -- a bit excessive, I must admit, but there is much to see.
The film encapsulates an important moment in the life of San Francisco and, by extension, of American cities generally. All roads -- and streetcar lines -- coalesce in the city center, making it a vibrant commercial and civic core. The architecture that frames the street is bumptious but vital. There is an aggressiveness in the air -- you would watch your step in a place like this -- and a catchy optimism, too. All that movement seems to say: We're going places, just you watch.
All the main modes of urban transportation were there on Market Street: walking, the most ancient form of transit; animal-powered wheeled vehicles, the first great technological leap in transportation, here taking a sort of last bow; the electric-powered train, which brought its efficiency to city streets (and undergrounds) late in the 19th century; and the gasoline-powered automobile (and truck), the wave of the future, here making a debut.
Today, we are still struggling mightily -- if none too successfully -- to find the right balance between these different means of getting from place to place. It is a subject almost everybody cares about. Transportation costs a lot -- it is second only to housing in the average family's budget. And it takes up a whole lot of our time -- witness the ever-increasing deluge of complaints about traffic.
When the word "transit" is uttered, however, most people think right away of rail lines and buses. In effect, they hear one word and visualize two: "mass transit." Three cheers to the organizers of this show, then, for acknowledging that the private automobile remains far and away the predominant mode of transit in and around American cities.
Despite the fantasy-land television ads of the car companies -- hey, when was the last time you even saw an open road, much less drove your SUV to the top of a desert mesa? -- the vast majority of the time we spend in cars is on crowded highways and streets trying to go, oh so slowly, from here to there. The traffic crisis, in other words, is a transit crisis, and building more roads for ever more cars is not going to solve it.
The exhibition makes this clear -- sort of. Organized by Building Museum curator Mary Konsoulis along with Kathleen Franz, an associate professor of history at the University of North Carolina-Greensboro, "On Track" is divided into three sections corresponding to three eras of transit -- "The Expanding City," running from the 1880s to the 1920s; "The Suburban City," from the 1920s to the 1960s; and "The Regional City," from the 1960s to the present.
You see a lot of neat stuff and absorb much useful information along the exhibition route. The first segment is the most comprehensive and compelling. Primarily, it documents the astonishing rise of trolleys and subways and the very nice (but racially and ethnically segregated) planned suburbs that they engendered.
"The electric railway has become the most potent factor of our modern life," engineer Frank J. Sprague said in 1904, and he had reason to brag. In 1888, he had introduced the first successful electric streetcar system in the United States, and 16 years later almost every city in the country had a respectable system. A 1908 map of Washington, for instance, shows a spider's web of streetcar lines centered downtown and heading out every major road.
The "suburban city" segment, appropriately, is all about the car. There is some good material here documenting the links between federal programs favoring single-family homes in the suburbs and the evolution of our traffic nightmares. There is some terrific anecdotal stuff, too -- a video clip, for instance, of former San Francisco Mayor Joseph Alioto reminiscing about his freeway-fighting days: "That highway crowd, if you gave them a chance, they would put a road right through the Vatican if they figured by doing that they save a little space or save a little mileage."
Basically, however, the exhibition begins to go a little limp at this point, and it loses its analytical focus altogether at the end, with "The Regional City."
We all know, for example, that buses replaced all those streetcar systems -- by 1975, the number of cities in which such systems had operated had dwindled from hundreds to seven. But was this a terrible thing, a good thing, or a mix? Although the sequencing of the show suggests its curators think it was pretty bad, we aren't offered much in the way of documentation one way or the other. And there's not much here to answer the nagging question of why the shift took place.
And sure, many of us are heartened by the recent upsurge of mixed transit systems -- combinations of cars, buses, "heavy" rail (i.e. subways), "light" rail (i.e. streetcars) and even bicycles. There are, after all, some very good examples in the Washington area -- the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor in Virginia is properly featured in this show.
Again, however, visitors aren't really told why this is a good thing -- they are just supposed to get it, somehow, and go away feeling warm and cuddly: "Ah, things are getting better." But things aren't getting better on anything like the scale needed to "solve" the transit crisis, and I suppose that, at heart, most of us know this.
Which is fortunate, because this exhibition doesn't tell us the truth: From a transit perspective, our "regional cities" are getting more dysfunctional year by year. There are lots of little reasons why this is so, but there is one big overriding cause: the tremendous disconnection between our land use patterns and transportation goals.
In his recent book, "The Shape of the Future," Fairfax planning consultant E.M. Risse points out that in the 1980s, America's urban regions grew in population by 15 percent and in area by 400 percent. Not surprisingly, this produced a 50 percent increase in vehicle miles traveled.
Nothing has changed much in the last decade to reverse this trend -- which means, simply put, that urban sprawl is alive and well. Until we come to grips with this, we'll remain trapped in the vicious cycle of more cars/more roads, more roads/more cars. It's that simple.
On Track: Transit and the American City continues through Oct. 27 at the National Building Museum, 401 F St. NW. Monday through Saturday from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. and Sunday from 11 a.m. to 5 p.m. Admission is free. 202-272-2448, www.nbm.org.
© 2002 The Washington Post Company
Reprinted without permission
Phil Hom
TA is hiring 60 people in March, and they're up to my list number. Rumor is they're all going to the A division. I'm drug-free, and have no criminal record, and in excellent health. I hope to be a T/O by the end of the year.
Good luck!
Thanks.
I wish you luck. I saw a list of classes for the next few mouths and the next two classes are going to be A Division classes. 60+ in the first 21 in the second.
Robert
Why are so many going to the A?
If I get the job, and am assigned to the A, I won't consider myself a real T/O until I get to work the B division. Sorry, the Mickey Mouse Railroad just does not measure up to the B divsion.
Work the A Div. When you come over to the B Div you can fall asleep on the trip. 10 minute headways and more built-in 'slop' time than I know what to do with.
I would have a laptop with a modem and write to Subtalk. I'am sure it can fit in the TRANSVERSE CAB.
>>When you come over to the B Div you can fall asleep on the trip.<<
So that explains why the trains are so slow on the BMT.
Hell yeah!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I miss read the list, what I say before are classes that are already in school car. The are on own within the next mouth or two. Ther are two classes starting one this mounth of 42 A/B & one next mounth of 22 A/B. Sorry of the mistake.
Robert
Best wishes for the best work. Be a TA Ranger...don't seccumb to the TA Shuffle. Learn, do your work well, earn respect and stomp the slackers. It's the best decision I have ever made in my life. CI Peter
What's your list number? I've got #1859.
-Stef
Congratulations and happy motoring! :)
I am going to 18 washington street this wednesday hopefully to apply for MTA trackworker. last time the test was out i was told that the requirements were high skool and when they call u u must be able to lift 80 lbs. Anyways i hope to take this test. Anyone know the requirements???
Does anyone here know the acceleration rate of the Rohr cars? I am making a BVE route and need this info. It is not on www.wmata.com nor could I find it in "The Story of Metro".
I know PATH is technically a railroad governed by the FRA but what do you all consider it to be? I think it is a subway system, since it looks and operates like one.
I agree with you, in that the nature of operation should assign the definition. Commuter rail and subway (rail based rapid-transit) systems have very different operating modes, and serve very different purposes. They may be complementary, but they are incompatible.
MATT-2AV
It's in a sort of a sub-class which you could call suburban or interurban rapid transit. "Subway" is too restrictive, and it isn't a railroad in the usual sense.
In a similar class are SIRT and P&W (SEPTA Route 100).
I'd say it's as much of a Subway as the London Underground if not more. Anyone who's ridden the Bakerloo Line North of Queens Park or some of the furthest branches of the Metropolitan will know what I mean. All this "commuter railroad" stuff is a rather hazy distinction.
But you're looking at the totality of a system. New York City and London Transport are, by American definition, subway systems, so their branches and outlying lines are part of the same system.
The Rockaway Line, standing on its own, would not be a subway line, likewise the Atlantic Avenue Line of the LIRR, is it were cut off of the LIRR and hooked up with the City system, would easily be viewed as a subway line.
The totality of the PATH system is not a subway line in the usual American context, any more than the CA&E or North Shore or Liberty Bell Lines were rapid transit lines by virtue of running partly on rapid transit trackage.
au contraire, mon cher. The above ground segments of the PATH are no less subway than many parts of the Chicago L which we usually group with subways rather than mainline RRs. However, the western extremity of te Lake (Green) St. L is physically on a fenced off part of the former Chi & NorthWesterm. In turn the Red Line north of Wilson Ave used to switch freight which it interchanged with the former operator of the ROW from Wilson to Evanston.
I think the distinguishing characteristics of 'subway or mass transit are elastic and every time I try to make a hard and fast distinction I can find an exception.
Multiple unit operation with high level platforms and barrier fare control on short headways with closely spaced stations?
The Metra Electric comes close. The Norristown HS Line Septa 100 is however usually single car pay fare on train yet clearly some sort of mass transit.
besides, the above describes the downtown tunnel operations of the SF MUNI streetcar system.
OTOH the Cleveland Red Line (high level plats, MU in rush) does pay fare on train in off hours is it mass transit?
PATCO has a double lineage--yet to me it is clearly a 'subway' type operation.
I am afraid the famous Supreme Court quip (Justice Powell if memory serves) applies. I can't define subway (porn) but I know it when I see it
Mon cher? I'm not even going to go there,
excuse me it was solely irony.
I knew that.
eh bien, vos idees ?
eh bien, vos idees ?
If we'e going to continue down this linguistic road, shouldn't we be talking about Montrèal? In fact, if you discuss Canadian Subways/Canadienne Mètros, do I have to post everything in both languages? That would be a bummer. I took two years of French in High School and was so bad at it they made me switch to Spanish. But I know what I need to know--in a restuarant I know the difference between ris and riz.
Anyway, enough of that. I would personally rarely describe something as a "subway" in any generic sense. I have long preferred the term rapid transit system or urban rapid transit system. So my definition of "subway" might be a lot more restrictive than others.
Take the example of NYCTA and CTA.I would say they are, without doubt, in the same category of rapid transit systems (similar right-of-way in general, equipment, operating characteristics, type of area served, service patterns, purpose (home to work or recreation). But if someone were to ask me if the CTA is "a subway system" I could only answer yes if I could qualify my answer.
OTOH, if you're using subway generically, as Metro is in Europe, I could include a lot more systems.
Interesting to me is the term "light rail." Light rail is "hot" (one NYS DOT official told me it was "sexy") in modern planning. So there is a tendency to use the term very broadly. The JFK AirTrain is being called a light rail system, including by the Port Authority. Yes, it is light (compared to, say, the D train) and it is rail. But is it "Light Rail"? Seems like a stretch to me.
agreed. To me subway is the short name for mass transit or rapid transit. I call BART the subway to the conternation of some locals.
As to light rail, my sense is that the San Diego system (which cheated the disabled and US workers) was 'sexy' because it was way cheaper to build than BART (the only two systems in Ca in the early seventies.
BART of course had been built in typical DOD style--gross cosdty overruns and the system has never performed as advertised. SF MUNI has shown that Light Rail can include simlar overpriced underdesigned hardware and software. (Breda cars and Alcatel ATS/ATO) It is dismaying to be living in the declining years of an imperium.
But you're looking at the totality of a system. New York City and London Transport are, by American definition, subway systems, so their branches and outlying lines are part of the same system.
Yes, but at least four different sizes (mainline on the Northern City and W&C, sub-surface on the Met, H&C, Circle, East London and District, something puny on the Central and yet another type on the Northern and Bakerloo) of stock operate different London lines. The W&C and Northern City are as much part of the system as PATH is to NYC and have varied in consideration as to what they actually are, so the comparison is entirely fair. The current situation in London is that the H&C is part of the Underground and the Northern City isn't, but that is so subject to change that the distinction is arbitrary. I suggest that the NJT - PATH - Subway distinctions are also arbitrary. It is a continuum. Unfortunately the FRA doesn't seem to like continua.
I agree that the question of how to distinguish a subway/metro from a commuter train is pretty tricky. So far as London is concerned, the Northern City line had small cross-section trains when it was part of the Underground and now has mainline size trains as part of the commuter WAGN system. The Waterloo & City line was part of British Rail, is now part of the Underground, but has always had small cross-section trains to fit its small tunnels. Between Queens Park and Harrow and Wealdstone, Bakerloo line trains and Silverlink (ex-BR) trains actually run on the same tracks. Ditto District Line to Richmond and Silverlink North London Line trains. And by the way the extension of the Newcastle Metro to Sunderland is going to share its track with trains.
Presumably the reason why PATH is treated as a railroad is that it crosses a state line and therefore has to be regulated by a federal authority, and the FRA is the only one available for the job.
PATH is treated as a railroad because it was originally the Hudson and Manhattan Railway (or Railroad, I don't recall), which shared trackage with the Pennsylvania Railroad. Since cars were interchanged between the lines and trains of the Pennsylvania ran over the H&M's tracks, it was regulated accordingly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, the former CTA freight operation on the now Red Line which specifically interchanged with the MILW did not make the L a mainline RR. There is clearly more here than dry facts.
Isn't bilateralism allowed in the USA? You know, an agreement between the states of NY and NJ?
Since they removed any connections to ex. Pennsylvania RR trackage, I would call it a subway system.
However, it shares bridges over the Passaic River with Amtrak/NJ Transit, and ROW through Harrison, so that is what is keeping the FRA involved.
its like a glorified Subway similar to NYCT. they even have some of the same rules like i seen a sign saying T over 35 miles. which means the same as NYCT. But they run thru Railroad territory so they have FRA involvement. they also have Engineers and not motormen
But subway style livery. No padded seats.
However, it shares bridges over the Passaic River with Amtrak/NJ Transit, and ROW through Harrison, so that is what is keeping the FRA involved.
Probably the biggest reason is the RR unions that have refused to let PATH switch into transit. I think t=it is a good idea to keep PATH a RR as traffic levels increase (notably between DOCK and HUDSON) it might become necessary to have PATH and NJT/Amtrak run on the same tracks.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck . . .
PATH is a duck?
You forget Rule #1 in dealing with the federal government though: even though it might LOOK like a duck,QUACK like a duck, and WALK like a duck,the feds can still call it a chicken if they want!
I put PATH in the same class with PATCO. That is, an interstate rapid transit system. I realize that some other systems like WMATA crosses state line but that is more of a regional rapid transit system like BART. Both PATH and PATCO exist primarily to transport people from one state to the other and have major water crossings to do so.
SIRT I consider as suburban rapid transit. Although it is within the political city limits of New York it is geographically separated from the center city and it also has a very specialized fare collection system.
Norristown is a little tougher to describe. It can be considered suburban raipd transit because it begins at at outlying suburban terminal requiring a transfer to another system to reach the center city. I have no problem putting Media and Sharon Hill into the suburban light rail catergory but Norristown operates single cars unlike any other system and seems to generate much more of a local ridership. Possibly out of loyalty to the old interurban days I like to consider it an "Interurban" since it continues to connect two cites, Upper Darby and Norristown.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Another similar to Norristown is a connector line to the last stop on one of the two TCC Toronto subway lines. A single car with a T/O running. The cars a very similar in appearance to the Vancouver automated subway trains.
Peppertree: I have heard the Scarborough LRT described as "an industrial-strengh people-mover."
Larry,RedbirdR33
How does one define "subway"?
PATH when it was the H&M was considered a railroad, Pennsy Freight later Conrail at times shared the same trackage
Back in H&M days it was definitly a railroad. It ran on PRR main lines and was signaled by PRR interlocking towers.
I consider it Mass Transit. Technically, subways are underground railroads. However, PATH has the destinction of crossing a state line. But, the rolling stock does indeed look and act like a subway. I propose a new term. "Interstate Subway." What do you think?
Sounds interesting...now for legislature to create rules and regs for such an (ahem) "Interstate" Subvay.
Stuart, RLine86Man
PATH crossing a state line isn't unique. DC Metro, PATCO and St Louis Metrolink do the same thing.
I never rode the London Underground and I always wanted pictures of the trains used. Well I found some pictures.
http://www.londonrailways.net/stock_l.html
and some stations:
http://www.londonrailways.net/photos.htm
Did you know that this site has like 800 pictures of the Underground?
383, to be precise. :-)
If you are interested in books about London Underground, go to
www.transportdiversions.com
I recently purchased on line the book Metropolitan Railway Rolling Stock, which has photos of trains from 1868 to 1933. They have other excellent books about London Underground.
The one you want is "UNDERGROUND MOVEMENT" by Paul Moss, 224 pages. This one has EVERY SINGLE TUBE and SURFACE STOCK from 1920 to present, with great photos and detailed descriptions. It's not cheap, cost me 30 pounds, but it's worth it. Not sure where to get it here in NYC but I know for sure they have it at Covent Garden.
wayne
Thanks for the info. This book is also listed on www.transportdiversions.com and lists for 30 pounds.
bn.com lists the book at $52.95, in stock, ships within 24 hours. (And right now order two books and the shipping's free.) Amazon only lists one used through an affiliate, at $110.00.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Flushing Line... What do out of towners think of that name? Such as John Rocker?
'Flushing' is the source of infinite potty humor. I think just about all of us wish there was a plumbing firm "Flushing Toilets and Plumbing Supplies" right there where Northern Blvd intersects the GCP, with a giant neon sign pointing down to it.
Hmm, Flushing Meadows.
There was a Simpsons episode where Homer (big dumb obnoxious guy) really wanted to go to the bathroom but he had to wait for a traffic guy. And he say a bus saying "To Flushing Meddows" and he had a dream of him frolicking around in a meddow of toilets.
That's the one about which I was thinking.
Pity it's just about impossible to show that episode now.
The Simpsons have released Season One on DVD.
Eventually it'll come out on DVD.
Yay!!! And thank gods I have a DVD player that'll read American DVD's! It saves me a fortune, despite bank charges whenever I order.
Yep, that region-encoding is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.
Then there was Bob Hope's crack about how there should be a bowl game in Flushing: The Tidy (sp) Bowl.
Har-de-har.
Shea would be the perfect place for it. The Tyde Bowl game live from Shea Stadium in Flushing NY Featuring Sam Houston Inst of Technology, and South Carolina University of Mineing
The question is, will the lower field boxes still move into football configuration? They've been set for baseball-only since the Jets left for Jersey after 1983.
I love that scene!
:-) Andrew
Or in the simpsons episode where homer is at the WTC facility waiting for the parking ticket guy to unlock his wheel guard, but he needs to pee really bad. He sees a bus for Flushing Meadows and he envisions a field of grass with flushing toilets. Then of course he goes into one of the WTC towers, takes a leak, and sees the parking guy giving Homer another ticket. Homer unleashes the biggest D'OH I've ever seen.
Sorry but I didn't read your articles before posting mine.
Hey, how about converting the Flushing Line to BMT/IND and running a P train over it? Sorry, couldn't resist...
I don't think a B-division car can handle some of the curves, after the platforms are altered to B-division.
It could. The problem is the Steinway Tubes.
I know this sounds radical, but could the Queens - Midtown tunnel be hi-jacked for Subway Service? I'm not actually serious about turning it into BMT, but some express tubes would be a nice touch! They would certainly help in my crazy expansion plan :) :) :)
Oh, please, no more P jokes.
David
OK, one rim shot just this once.
I would look at "strangest" name for a subway line a bit differently.
I always thought "Franklin-Nassau" was odd, if you know where the Franklin Avenue Line is and where the Nassau Street Line is. Unless you know how the service ran, you would never guess, especially since there were other "Nassau" services (Brighton-Nassau, Culver-Nassau) that make more sense.
Also, Culver Line. Won't find the name as a location on any map. There are other rail lines known as attached to a single individual (Stewart, Gunther) but the lines didn't retain the founder's name.
An out-of-towner might likewise wonder about other services that require local knowledge. The Lexington Avenue Subway and the Lexington Avenue el, the Broadway-Seventh Avenue Subway and the Broadway-Fourth Avenue Subway and the Broadway el, the Third Avenue el and the Third Avenue el.
What about the Sea Beach? After all, what is a "Sea Beach?" Is it different from any other salt water beach? It was named after a hotel, right?
After all, what is a "Sea Beach?" Is it different from any other salt water beach?
Bingo! On Long Island alone, I can think of at least one Lake Beach (on Lake Ronkonkoma) and some Bay Beaches (Tanner Beach).
But I don't know if that's why they chose "Sea Beach."
It is where the sea and the beach come together. Watch it young man, you are trudging into very hostile waters now.
Fred: What was so special about the Sea Beach? There are about six hundred beaches on Long Island and they are all "On the Sea."
Larry,RedbirdR33
But they do not go to Coney Island and they do not have the name and tradition of the Sea Beach. I know it was long ago but at one time when they wrote about the sites, sounds and smells of Brooklyn always the subway came into play. And more times than not they mentioned my train, not the others. I love the idea of an outside train in an open cut whooshing through small tunnels on it way to Coney Island. It ranks among my most cherished memories, and I'm convinced Larry babe that you are really trying to push my buttons.
Fred: Even if we limit this to discussion to Coney Island there were still four lines running to the beaches there and all those beaches were on the sea. I never heard of any beaches on Brooklyn's other great waterway, the Gowanus Canal.
BTW do you remember that great big elephant that used to be down at Coney? Would you know where it used to stand in relation to present day location?
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
Strangely I do not remember the big elephant. Why I do not know. I thought I had Coney Island down pat but it just goes to show that it is always possible for something to slip past you when your mind is on something else-----and when I was down at Coney it was certainly on something else, like the Tornado or that third roller coaster they had that I can never remember its name. The Cyclone I was terrified of until I rode it as a tourist. Now it is my all time favorite ride of all.
I knew Fred was becomming Senile
Come off it Booby, you don't know it was the Thunderbolt either. See I remember it now.
Fred, I think you're being teased over that elephant. It was gone before any of us, It used to be next to the Sea Beach Palace.
Thank you Paul. I thought someone was trying to put me on but I wasn't sure. It just seemed to me that when it came to Coney Island in my youth there just wasn't something that I wasn't aware of.
The closest one to CI was in the Prospect Pk Zoo, or maybe a Sea Elephant in the Aquarium at W 8thSt
I am not a Rollar VCoaster Fan, BTW lets us plan for the weekend of Oct 12, which is the wedding for the trip
That's a go if you can absolutely confirm it AND let me know how many days you will be in New York. October 12 is Columbus Day, and Dago Fred will be buying dinner than night. Good Lord, do you think we can get a bunch of guys on board to show up with us. What a hoot that would be.
Definate for the Wedding, if not I will shoot my niece, so Sunday would be good
Is it safe to assume the Bob and Fred Show is back on the air?:-)
An answer to a Prince's prayer. You've got your wish Steve. Fred and Bob are back in gear.
Can t wait until we get Steve with us
Yeah, we'll get thrown out of the subway for having too much fun.:-) I may wind up ROTFLMAO so much I may miss out on some of the railfan scenery.
I'm about to go to bed myself (night shaft) but wanted to just mention that I went to da chitty on Kissmoose and didn't get *ANY* "railfan experience" ... the foamer glass has been trashed by MYLAR so you can't see crap unless your idea of a foamer glass view is "light show by Radio Schlock" ... fortunately, got a wee bit of cab time, some "bust chops on conductor buddies while giving them the few moments of "duty time" at station stops, lots of wonderful kibbitzing with fellow foamers who turned up, and a sheetload of personal cab time experiences with a few people I worked out some details with along with their supervision and a "get out of transit cop jail free" letters presented by NYS Senate muckitymucks to give "Selkirk and Bingbong" the appropriate clearances ...
Got to have a WONDERFUL time as a guest of "The Larry" ... bottom line is, the "experience" has gone to Enron ... if ya come to ride the train today, you have to settle for the "TWU experience" rather than the "foamer experience" ... the BEST ride has always been "the stories" ... ranging from those of the "blind T/O" to the "OPTO whoopsie" ... if you're "TA meat" the SalaamAllah "middle window experience" PALES to "How I converted an QJ into a K train by using the anticlimbers" ... settle for the stories.
Just like in my time, a LOT of T/O's are near hitting the silk ... much as my own perverted stories (wish BigEdIRTManL were still with us with his own war stories but he ain't got a computer and ain't in a hurry to get one) can be some fun, there's a lot of old timers who can really turn a few divergings as to how the world in the hole used to be. I'd hate to think that my own damned short and bad experience with the "ta" under the Holy Ronan Empire once was ... I'm not even spongeworthy based on being TWU "short time meat" ... heh.
But count on the subway for what it was, and what it IS ... Nancy and I were lucky enough to get special treatment ... politically based (with "wuh-oh factor" amongst the adminisdroids ... got actual powered cab time in a 143 ... after 911, NOBODY gets into toyland and the options close around you like a chitty James Bomb movie ... as horizons restrict because the American people get punished for CIA failures, the railfan experience SHRINKS ... I was disallowed personally as a "known factor" in the TA from many things that were "de rigeur" before 911 ... wasn't even allowed into a tower at W4 even THOUGH I knew the people in there that day. Wasn't cleared. No admittance, bummer. And there was a guy on duty who KNEW me from 1971! No way. Bummer. At least they were kind enough to remove some "bay window restrictions" so we could at least look into the tower from the platform. But that's how paranoid things have gotten from a more "reasonable age" ...
The ride ain't the ride anymore, even with "special dispensation" as well as some TSS's willing to say "Yep, that signature is real, just please, stay out of the way" ... foamers don't get that. :)
Anyhoo, the proper sane basis for these days is ENJOY THE COMPANY OF THE FOLKS YOU RIDE WITH, SAVOR THE STORIES OF HOW THINGS ONCE WERE ... that's as good as it gets these days - the subway party is over - no cab rides, no handle pulling with buddies, no "lemme do this station" with conductor pals, TA ain't got no sense of humor. And that was BEFORE 911 ... only worse now. If you can't get your kicks trading war stories, then you can't dance and you ain't no fun. Such is the reality these days. No swapping the jumpseat with someone who knows you to do "cab time" anymore ... BUMMER.
Why don't you try and work out some time during the weekend of next October 12 to come down and join us. If we get the right group of guys together we will have a blast to outlast all blasts.
If we get the right group of guys together we will have a blast to outlast all blasts.
Particularly if I can find that stash of Confederate grape shot :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I saw the movie Gettysburg a couple of days back. Great movie, loved the ending because the good guys won.
As we go marching through Georgia.
I hope you don t sing that again when you come visit me again(but I agree with you_
And no more R-10s thundering and blazing along CPW anymore.:-( Ditto for the R-1/9s.
Not to worry, the Bob and Fred Show will entertain the whole subway train, and, besides, you can join and make it a threesome. In fact, we hope to ensnare a few others so we can really have old fashioned blast. The key is: When are you going to be there?
As it stands now, I am planning to fly in on Monday, Oct. 14 and head up to Connecticut on Friday the 18th.
My pal Brighton Express Bob says I'm going senile, but ask him who he asked about someone's handle, a handle a certain person forgot. Hint, I was the one asked. Guess who didn't remember his handle? And he says I'm the one getting senile.
Big Deal,I alway said I CRS
BTW do you remember that great big elephant that used to be down at Coney? Would you know where it used to stand in relation to present day location?
The elephant was right next to the Sea Beach Palace on the western side, which meant it was just to the east of West End Terminal. It was probably the future location of Luna Park, now Luna Park houses.
Which reminds me that the Elephant at Coney Island is often compared to "Lucy" the Elephant in Margate, NJ, from the same builder. But I've been inside that one, and its interesting, but apparently a pale sister of the Coney one.
"Lucy" is 65 feet tall, the one in Coney was 122 tall, which would have made it something like 6 to 8 times the mass. Lucy is rather cramped inside, the one in Coney was an actual hotel, with about 60 rooms.
The Sea Beach should be defunt, like the name of the Hotel it was named after
What would be a better name for the Sea Beach? I draw a blank. Brighton is a neighboorhood, Culver is a person, West End is a geographical description and 4th Ave. is a street.
I hardly ever draw a blank for anything.
"What would be a better name for the Sea Beach? I draw a blank. Brighton is a neighboorhood, Culver is a person, West End is a geographical description and 4th Ave. is a street.
I hardly ever draw a blank for anything."
I believe Culver was also the old name for McDonald Avenue, the street the Culver line runs down most of its elevated length.
I believe Culver was also the old name for McDonald Avenue, the street the Culver line runs down most of its elevated length.
AFAIK, it was never called Culver Av. Before being called McDonald Av, it was called Gravesend Av.
Part of Gravesend/MacDonald Avenue is one of the oldest streets in Kings County, dating back to Lady Moody's settlement of Gravesend. It shows on maps of the Battle of Long Island. Old Gravesend Village is at the junction of MacDonald/Gravesend Avenue and Gravesend Neck Rd.
I'm sure Mr. MacDonald was a great guy, but they shouldn't rename really old streets.
My grandfather worked in the court system back in the 30's, and he told me that McDonald Ave was named after a Judge as a political favor.
Back in the early part of the century naming streets after politicians was common.
In fact my grandfather told me that Mr. Cortelyou (don't know his firast name) was of great infuence in getting the Brighton line built in it's current configuration in the early part of the 20th century.
But was out of town when the open cut was being dug. When he came back, he was furious that there was not a station on Cortelyou Rd, (again named after him as a political favor). They then added Cortelyou Rd to the plans, which is why Cortelyou Rd is only one block from Beverly Rd on the Brighton line.
Hmmmm, just found this. You gotta wonder if it was the same person.
GEORGE B. MACDONALD CORTELYOU
Interesting. Martin Schachne told me that there was a "Colonel George Cortelyou" of a locally prominent family. He also said that the Colonel pronounced it "CORT-'l-you." I would say the Ditmas family was the most prominent in the immediate area.
Going back a little, the Lotts were probably the biggest noises. John Lott was a big booster of getting the Brighton Line through Flatbush and had the first loco named for him.
This person may have been related to the Cortelyous after whom the street (and station) were named, but he could have NOTHING to do with McDonald Avenue by sheer virtue of the fact that it's not MacDonald Avenue.
I've heard that McDonald Avenue was named for John B. McDonald of IRT fame. It does bewilder me however, that a street under a BMT line should be named for an IRT man; he must certainly have another claim to fame.
I know that Cortelyou founded New Utrecht, and there were certainly his descendants who were locally important. This part of Cortelyou Road was called Avenue C (or so I've heard) what was Cortelyou west of Coney Island Avenue called, if it was ever called anything different?
Cortelyou Road is one of the more interesting streets of pre-20th C. Flatbush, describing portions of three different roads, only one of which was apparently originally named Cortelyou.
The portion of Cortelyou Road from Flatbush Avenue to Coney Island Avenue appears to be one of the earlier mapped streets of Flatbush, called Turner Narrow Lane. This is a disappeared street west of CI Avenue to about current McDonald Avenue.
The western portion from Dahill Road to Coney Island Avenue is on a different alignment from Turner, to conform to the newly mapped streets, including Albemarle, Beverley, and the newer letter avenues.
Finally, the portion east of Flatbush was The Canarsie Road, or Canarsie Lane. I don't know what it looks like these days, but when I was a kid I used to ride my bike on it and marvel at its antiquated look, especially by Holy Cross.
Oh, and I feel like I left out part of the answer.
The sequence appears to be as follows:
1. Turner was changed to Avenue C, but only east of Coney Island Avenue. West portion maybe abandoned same time.
2. The portion from Dahill to CI Ave was mapped and plotted, and was called Cortelyou from Day One.
3. Portion from Coney Island to Flatbush changed to Cortelyou Road. Old station signs on surface Brighton said Avenue C. Station in cut said Cortelyou.
4. Canarsie Lane renamed to Cortelyou.
I might be out of sync somewhere there, but I think that's right
BTW, George Cortelyou was a secretary of the treasury under either McKinley or T. Roosevelt.
Fred: George Bruce Cortelyou was Secretary of the Treasury during Roosevelt's Teddy) second term from 1907-1909.
Larry,RedbirdR33
A historian, too. Well my friend, you have just gobbled a ton of my respect. Nice going. I wasn't exactly sure when but I was in the general area. Good to specifying the exact period. Now just get your ass to New York on the weekend of October 12 and join us for a real blowout.
Fred: My ass is in New York every day and believe me we democrats would love to get your republican ass up here in The Bronx. Selkirk and Stef can show you the way.
PS I like the new nickname for the Sea Beach aka Sea Ditch. I'll have to add it to my list.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Bronx will be on my itinarary but you, Stef, and Selkirk have got to promise me safe passage through the borough. BTW, if the Sea Beach was a woman would the name Sea Witch be appropriate, or would that be construed to be sexist? Sea Ditch? Well it is a cut and I think the TA takes that impression very seriously the way they have screwed my favorite line.
We are looking exactly for sunday the 13th of October, because I have a wedding in Westchester on the 12th. BTW Fred was in the Bronx with me on the 2 and 5 lines last August. Of course Fred did not look out the window much. Maybe we should stop by 161-River Ave, Fred s favorite place in the BX
Bob: You raise a good point. I'll have to find out when Branford is going to have their Autumn in New York Weekend. I would like to meet Fred very much but if it comes down to that or riding a Lo-V in Connecticut it could be a tough choice.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The choice is yours but a day with Fred and Me, is a once in a lifetime party
We'll have to take a group photo for sure. Anybody got a tripod?
Yes, but it's for ladies only. Got a Sachtler broadcast Teevee 'pod. Ikegami or Panasonic camera ... only used twice to show state legislators picking their noses on the NY-SCAN channel. :)
Selkirk: Is Ugly George still in business? Maybe we could get him to take the picture.
Larry,RedbirdR33
George Urbane was actually SIGHTED outside of Tiffany & Co with his backpack when we came down on Kissmoose ... having edited his show years ago at "Metro access" I walked up and said hello to him. He ignored me and Nancy entirely. Some things just never change and George is still lost in his own little world. After trying twice to get his attention away from his own cold stare by mentioning specifics that we really did know each other, continued walking on, shaking my head while he continued to stare off into space. No boobies for him. :)
Fred: Won't that be a sea bitch? Seriously though last year when they were ripping up the express track the Sea Beach did look like a trench from World War I. It's in much better shape now but the stations and the retaining walls need work. Also they tore down that huge gas tank out at Coney Island. It was a landmark for many years.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Uh, Fred, I am planning on flying into LGA on Monday, Oct. 14. I would be in the city until Friday the 18th. Any group railfanning will have to be done on a weekday if it's going to include me.
I was planning on getting in on Thursday and leaving Tuesday but I can alter that and come in Friday and leave late Wednesday. I certainly want to touch base with you and I'm sure Bob can make it, too. It would only cause him to change one day. Anyway, I am flexible and I'm told that Larry Redbird, Stef and maybe even joker Selkirk might join in. Wow!!! Can you imagine all of us together at one time. I think Mayor Bloomberg would proclaim a municipal emergency and make sure the cops watched every move we made.
Steve No way you can come in before the weekend?
Well, nothing is etched in stone and I haven't booked my plane ticket yet. I could conceivably fly in on Saturday the 12th if Sunday or Monday were more convenient to get together. It would mean six nights at the Larchmont instead of four. And if they still have 5 PM Mass at St. Francis Xavier Church on Saturday, I'd be set.
Saturday would be great, because we all can get together on Sunday AM, and I would not have to miss extra work which I can t afford
Sounds good. And this far in advance I should be able to get my wife's permission. Now if that happens to be Autumn in New York weekend at Branford, however... but that's OK, I can detour through the City and pick you up on my way :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I probably will be up with my wife and maybe my mother, because Saturday will be my niece's wedding, Sunday my wife can visit her cousin on York Ave, and I can have fun Thanks for the offer anyway
The only downer would be no Brighton express on Sunday. Oh well, you can't have everything. That said, the N runs local along 4th Ave. on Sundays, too.
We could always take the N up to DeKalb and take the q across, but how do we get from Coney island to 86th St, Fred and I have to go to Nathans for Lunch and he has to ride the Cyclone if it is still open
Sea Beach Fred and Myself plan to be in NYC the weekend of Oct 12, We are planning a Subway Jaunt on Sunday the 13th and maybe the 14th. This is not etched in stone. Hope some of you can make it, We plan to ride the Brighton and Slow Beach. Lunch at Nathans, Cyclone at CI if it is still open. Big Question, how do we get from 86th St to Coney Island without the N, beside walk to Stillwell and take the B
Best answer right now - wait until we know what shuttle buses will be running where. By Oct, only thw W should be running to Stillwell.
We may just have to take the West End one time and swallow hard. At least we won't have to argue about it since it neither of us considers it our favorite.
Coney Island's amusement area may very well be closed by October. I haven't seen any activity on the rides whenever I'd go down there that time of year.
I guess I will just have to ask my pal George W. to issue an Executive Order keeping Coney Island's Cyclone open until I leave town.
He was in Denver today, as a matter of fact. Even gave our governor and one of our seantors a lift to Salt Lake on Air Force One.
At least Nathans will be open. George W is George Washington, I did not know you spoke to the dead, or is it George Wallace???
I noticed you had to mention your pal George Wallace. Oh by the way, your sheets are ready.
He is more conserative then Ronnie
Yeah, while you're on the horn with that deadbeat, tell him he still owes us money for 911. You can bring the check with ya. :)
I won't be booking my plane ticket until summer, probably late June, so if your rendezvous is still on by then, I will plan on flying in on Saturday the 12th.
Hey, Fred, do you have a Brooklyn Dodgers baseball cap? I have a well-worn Mets cap.
Fred will wear his N T shirt and Sea Beach Fred Cap. Check Web Sites to NYC from DEN on Jet Blue, ATA or Frontier they seem to have the best rates, since Southwest goes to Hartford or Islip it is too far. A Saturday Flight sounds good so we can all get together on Sunday, and possibbly Monday
The Cyclone is an absolute must------front car of course.
I don't think the Cyclone will be open past Columbus Day if experience is anything.
#3 West End Jeff
You're probably right. Astroland has been open daily until Labor Day and then open on the rest of the September weekends.
Hey Gary, I expect you and Jeff to start planning ahead, too. I would like nothing better than to have you join us for a rousing few days-------that is, if you can swing it. After all, you organized our railfanning my last trip to New York, and you must admit we had a hell of a good time.
We can be there on a Saturday night or anytime on Sunday. Does anybody have any solid ideas of what to do and where to go?
Once we get a good idea of who actually is going to show up, we will start putting things together. I have a few ideas of my own and so does Bob and Steve. First, however, we must all get in sinc and know just who is going to show up.
[Does anybody have any solid ideas of what to do and where to go?]
You'll need a F-U-N pass to enjoy it properly ;-)
I would suggest: L leaving Manhattan; Brighton Q expresss; Flushing Line Express (if they still have Red Birds); F over the Gowanus; ride across Jamaica Bay; and of course we'll have to fit in Sea Beach somewhere. Just some ideas to pick from.
Mr rt__:^)
It would be good if some New Yorker who is on the scene permanently make a tentative plan. I'm a tourist but I'm flexible enough. The only thing I would really want is for the Cyclone to be open so I could ride it. Other than that I'm open to all suggestions. How about a walk on the Polo Grounds shuttle? I hear that is interesting.
The Main Day is Sunday so the Q Exp will not be running
And the N will be running local in Brooklyn. The BMT standards, if they were still around, would be carrying "Sea B'ch L'c'l" signs.
Thank God I wasn't around when the Standards were used on the Sea Beach and it was a local. Yuk, that would have really been a bummer. The one thing I have never figured out is why they switched the D's and Standards between the West End and the Sea Beach.
There never was a Sea Beach local per se. The 4th Ave. express tracks lead directly to the Sea Beach line. The BMT standards had route signs for all possible combinations, a feature the R-1/9s also had.
One possible explanation for the equipment swap you speak of may have been a desire to keep the Triplexes off the bridge.
The Sunday Coney Island Express Specials from Nassau St., via the Sea Beach express tracks and Brighton express tracks to Fulton St--Franklin Av. were probably Standards. You keep saying how you disliked the standards, but they were probably the mainstay of the line you so sorely miss.
Not in my day Q. From 1947 to 1954, the years I rode the Sea Beach as a New Yorker, the only train on that line was the D Triplex #4. There were no Standards on that line at any time I can remember during that period. They were the exclusive part of the 4th Avenue Local #2BMT, and were used on the Brighton Local #1BMT. When the Standards were put back on the Sea Beach in 1963 I was long gone from the Big City.
Fred, hello, wake up! I'm not talking about your #4. I'm talking about the Sunday specials that used the express tracks between 59th St. and Coney Island.
I'm awake, but if you're talking about that period from 1949 on, I did see trains use the Sea Beach express tracks but I never saw a standard used. If they did run that route it escaped me. All I saw on the Sea Beach, I repeat, were Triplexes.
Did you see Triplexes running on the express tracks on weekends only? If so, those were Coney Island Expresses.
The D s were replaced by the New R 32s on tyhe Q and N that is why the Triplex went to the West End as far as people told me
There are several theories about how the Triplexes wound up on the West End. One was the TA wanted them off the bridge. Another was since the West End was a part-time service by then, they would assign the oldest equipment to it.
The Cyclone will probably be closed, and the Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel is sealed closed.
How about a walk on the Polo Grounds shuttle? I hear that is interesting.
It is, but not nearly as interesting as it was before they sealed the tunnel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Talk about throwing cold water on something, that took the cake. However, I didn't know that tunnel was sealed shut. I had read of a trip there two years ago and thought it still might be open. But the Cyclone closed, too. What an insult. Don't they know Sea Beach Fred is coming to town. What kind of pikers are they anyway. Anybody know Bloomberg? Maybe he can cut some slack for a fellow Republican and open it up just for us.
The Polo Grounds shuttle was re-sealed because of vagrants starting fires:
Good evening.
Let me first say that I truly enjoyed the story behind and pictures of the Polo Ground Shuttle. This morning I, along with other members of the Mayor's Office, led City agencies into both ends of the de facto 9th Avenue subway (Anderson-Jerome & Sedgwick Avenues) in an attempt to strategize a clean up.
The situation at this site was brought to my attention by an FDNY Battalion Chief during the September District Service Cabinet meeting of Bronx Comunity Board 4.
I was informed by FDNY that they have responded to numerous fires set by homeless and vandals in the past couple of years, most recently this summer. Yes, we did find hundreds of tires and car shells amidst other debris mostly at the Anderson-Jerome end. If you want to know how we all got up to the Anderson-Jerome station, we had FDNY lift us with their Ladder truck above the white awning-business building where there is a gate that opens up.
It is in our interest to clean up both ends of the tunnel, remove the car shells and all, and seal completely the tunnel to prevent vagrants and pyromaniacs from entering and wreaking havoc.
Thank you for the story behind this station/tunnel.
Lee Anthony Nieves
Director, Bronx Unit-CAU
Mayor's Office
212-788-7458
The only way you can virtually walk through the tunnel now is on my video.
Here's the Polo Grounds Shuttle trip report.
--Mark
I ask for a snack and I get a ten course banquet. Thanks Mark for your interest and consideration. I enjoyed it so much I bookmarked it so I can see it any time I want. Maybe I'll touch base with you when I get to New York. Much obliged.
Mark is a Brighton Man, Maybe he will shoot a Video of you on what s left of the Slow Boat Local
Bob: I like that one "Slow Boat Local". I will add it to the list.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Really Larry? You really like that? That means two things to me. One, you have a lot of time on your hands, and you're easy to please with simple and corny jokes. Nothing to be ashamed of but certainly nothing to write home about either----that is, if you're girlfriend isn't round filing all your letters. If you writing is as boring as my buddy Bob I'm surprised you ever got to first base in the first place.
Fred: I guess that you were never on a cattle ranch in South Dakota or you would know what it means to really step in it. You have lambasted the Brighton Boys for a long time and then as if you don't have enough on your plate you take pot-shots at The Bronx and the IRT.
If you haven't realized it by now we have been working you in tandem. I've been quiet these past few days but I noticed that the Brighton Boys have picked up the slack. The last thing you want to do when you're on a sinking ship is make an enemy of the guy who runs the lifeboats.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Right O Larry and I am very aware of the plot. But as I say again, if that is your idea of a good laugh you've been sitting on a pile of rocks in Zeke Hardy's cow pasture for too long. If you really want a laugh, go to Vegas and catch Don Rickles. As for the lifeboats I still expect you to give them to me despite all. You wouldn't begrudge your old Sea Beach buddy, now would you?
Fred: Its all a matter of perception old buddy. Many people will tell you that the Titanic was a great ship. Well great ships don't sink. Now about the iceberg, that was a great iceberg. I like what you have to say about Abe Lincoln. In my view he was one of the two greatest politicians of all time. If you want to know who the other one is e-mail me. If I give out his name on sub-talk it would start a war that would make Hiroshima look like a firecracker.
Best Wishes and I look forward to seeing you in October along with the Great Pumpkin.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Slow Boat, hmm..nice but not entirely accurate. Slow Beach is much, much better, and still the most approriate name for Fred's favorite line.
ROTFLMAO
Your jokes are getting about as corny as your personality. Come up with some new material. It sounds to me that you;ve been riding the Dumbton too long and forgot to get off somewhere.
Laurel & Hardy
Abbott & Costello
Hudson & Landry
Rowan & Martin
Bob & Fred?
Hey!
You left out Stiller & Meara!
Sorry about that.
And now for something completely different. Two Triplexes colliding on the Sea Beach.
It happened in June, 1955 at Stillwell Avenue. I read about it in the old LA Examiner. It said two trains on the #4 line collided near Coney Island. It got my attention right away because they were talking about my beloved Sea Beach.
6045 and 6078 got crunched. Well, portions of them did, anyway. They took 6078C and grafted it onto 6045A and B, renumbering it 6045C in the process. The equivalent of one Triplex unit was scrapped.
Supposedly, that collision registered 4 to 4.5 on the Richter Scale. Some thought there had been a sonic boom.:-)
Suggestion for Sunday Trip. From Midtown, N to 86th, walk to W or F what ever is closer, to Stillwell, Lunch, Coney island. Q to Prospect Park, Franklin Shuttle, A to Far Rockaway and return to City
That is a go. Sounds great to me. Do you have a timeline on how long all that will take? Can we get from Rockaway back to Little Italy for a good Dago dinner?
Hey Fred, ever been to Taormina's on Mulberry St? Nice place.
Yes I have and I like it very much. That could our place for a good repast. I always ask if they have dishes without onions. I hate onions and at Taormina's they have most dishes without them---Thank God!!!
Great. Let's plan on going there then, if there are no objections.
None from me and none from Bob since I will probably be treating him since he was so hospitable last summer.
Sometimes the Cyclone will be open until the Columbus Day weekend if the weather holds, but I would check to be sure.
#3 West End Jeff
It will be better with me, then you can the Bob and Fred Show in person
And be sure to be wearing Depends.:-)
Here is a picture of the Avenue C station in 1901.
Nice picture, but rather high opening bid, seeing as it's a copy.
I agree, that's what's stopping me from bidding on it.
>>>Finally, the portion east of Flatbush was The Canarsie Road, or Canarsie Lane. I don't know what it looks
like these days, but when I was a kid I used to ride my bike on it and marvel at its antiquated look,
especially by Holy Cross.<<<
Canarsie Lane extends for a block east of Holy Cross Cemetery at Schenectady Avenue, and also passes in front of the old Peter Claesen Wyckoff House at Clarendon and Ralph Avenue. You can see this section of Canarsie Lane, as well as an 1890s Brooklyn Eagle map, right here at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/Canarsie%20lanes/canarsie.html
Affirmative. It is the same guy.
I know Avenue C was renamed Cortelyou Road in the time frame of the GC Elimination. However, the station there was almost certainly continuous, since Avenue C was a major street with a station and a trolley line and a switch onto the surface Brighton Line.
It is Beverley Road which is the addition, most probably added to satisfy the builders of Prospect Park South and not make those very upscale people walk the extra long block to Cortelyou.
There was also a station style sign "Prospect Park South" at Albemarle Road, probably 1900-1907, but I hve no indication that this was a station. Possibly the fathers of PPS pursuaded the BRT to make a whistle stop there for trains of potential homebuyers.
What exactly was "GC Elimination"?
- Lyle Goldman
"Grade Crossing" ... pesky locations where cars play chicken with trains. And the train always wins.
Sounds Like the LAQMTA Blue Line and MetroLink Santa Clarita Line in Sylmar
Did the Brighton Line ever have grade crossings north of Sheepshead Bay? If so, when were they eliminated, and when were the stations on the Brighton Line as we know them today built?
- Lyle Goldman
Indeed, the Brighton had grade crossings all the way to Culver Depot. The 1905-1908 project eliminated the crossings around Park Place and from Church Avenue to Sheepshead Bay, but the Brighton Line returned to the surface just after crossing Neptune Avenue and ran on the surface to Brighton Beach and Culver Depot.
Service to Culver Depot ended in 1916 and service terminated temporarily at Sheepshead Bay. Trackage was left in place to reach Brighton Beach on the surface for a while but I'm unclear as to whether any passenger trains operated regular service on it. This was the last surface operation on the Brighton Line.
There was a GC elimination project undertaken in Denver and completed perhaps two years ago. All grade crossings along Santa Fe Drive (US 85) were eliminated from County Line Road, on the Douglas-Arapahoe County line, to Kalamath St., a distance of roughly 10 miles. It took close to 20 years to get it done. I can remember having to wait at a grade crossing many a time for a long coal train to pass. Most intersecting streets were depressed beneath the tracks while in Littleton, the tracks themselves were depressed and placed in an open cut. The Southwest light rail line uses this corridor, and trains zip along at 55 mph.
I don't think any of ours will be going away for quite some time. But here at least, they have enough sense to have a DINER right at the grade crossing. You can have a seven course dinner by the time the train's done going by. :)
What exactly was "GC Elimination"?
You put your punctuation INSIDE your quotes.
Anyway, it's what Jacqueline Kennedy prevented.
What exactly was "GC Elimination"?
You put your punctuation INSIDE your quotes.
Not necessarily. Small punctuation like periods and commas go inside the quotes. Tall punctuation like queries, bangs, colons and semis have some discretion to them, based on the sense of the sentence. In this case Lyle is justified in the placement of his marks. On the other hand the complete sentence: "What was that?" would have properly have the mark inside the quotes.
The baseline reason for placing small punctuation inside the marks is to avoid having the period or comma float outside the sentence, as in "Go away, Bozo". This was important in faces where quotation marks tended to be small and where kerning was not possible, as in text faces in hand type or linotype.
Furthermore, in British English, it is conventional to put all puntuation outside quotes, even commas and full stops. However, this usage is diminishing, although I deliberately and gratuitously use it!
Also, I have noticed that many Brits tend to leave out full stops (or periods, as we call them here in the States) after certain abbreviations that require them. For example, they write "Mr" instead of "Mr.," "Mrs" instead of "Mrs.," "Ltd" instead of "Ltd.," and "etc" instead of "etc." You don't do that, James, do you?
- Lyle Goldman
I'm sure Mr. MacDonald was a great guy, but they shouldn't rename really old streets.
Perhaps if you feel that sentiment strongly enough, you should bombard the politicos with mail trying to get it changed back.
I don't really know how people who react to an attempt to change it back. 30 or 40 years ago I'm sure people would have said "no way." They wouldn't want a street newly (as far as they were concerned) named something grim sounding like gravesend.
Now, who knows? People are more antiquity minded--plus they're more willing to accept even stupid-sounding names like "Dumbo" for places they live.
Yeah well I just think Gravesend is a nice name anyway - reminds me of an obscure town in Kent where something happened in the 16th Century, if only I had taken an interest in mediaeval history. This is probably a very controversial thing to say, but would the current political climate allow restoring names to streets which are now mere numbers. It is probably my transatlantic attitudes, but I find Bliss a lot more memorable than 33rd (or is it 34th) or whatever it is.
Gravesend was the only English chartered town in what became Kings County and yes, it was named for Gravesend, England.
I think there'd be a lot of sympathy for restoring street names to numbered streets, but I'm the authorities would resist it. The Queens street numbering systemis just dreadful, IMO.
While we're at it let get Malbone Street back!
While we're at it let get Malbone Street back!
Yeah, and I'll come and visit you in New Amsterdam.
That's because the Sea Beach name is too marvelous for words. Besides, we Sea Beach fans like the name as is. You Brighton, Culver and IND fans, BUTT OUT!!!!!!
Hmmmm. You didn't say anything about West End fans.:-)
Jeff Alterman is Mr. West End and he is a good friend. He usually backs me up where the Sea Beach is concerned, so he can have at it when he wants to make a critical comment about my train because I know he will be fair and impartial about it.
Still as far as I know there are 3 Subway/Rail Lines in the world to Brighton Beach(England, Melbourne Australia, and Brooklyn) who else would name a line sea Beach when there is np place named Sea Beach. Most beaches are on the Sea
The Sea Beach is one of a kind; you ought to know that by now. Hell Brighton is so common it takes on the role of a woman who has changed her face ten times in a lifetime because she can't make up her mind.
Hell Brighton is so common it takes on the role of a woman who has changed her face ten times in a lifetime because she can't make up her mind.
The Sea Beach. What a ditch!
Notch one up big guy, that was one hell of an observation.
Sea Beach is in a ditch, waiting from a train is a Son of a B*tch
I don't think you're a threat to William Blake or Percy Shelley with that one.
OK by gum, THAT DID IT ... The Brighton may have had more face lifts than Phyllis Diller, but it's STILL prettier than ... what was that? The SEA HAG? Heh. Insult MY train? Dammit! :)
Yo ... howzzit hanging? Nyuknyuknyuk ...
Neener-neener.:-)
Selkirk you have to join us on Sunday Oct 13, Just to quiet Fred down, he talks to everybody
The English Brighton station is called just Brighton, not Brighton Beach. The station is about a mile inland from the beach. Brighton is where I grew up -- it was one of the first real seaside resorts, so I guess the others got named after it.
There is also a New Brighton near Liverpool, which has a station on the Liverpool suburban rail system.
Well, properly the BMT line is the Brighton Beach Line, but it's commonly called the Brighton Line, just like the one in England. I know the English one is the Brighton Line because it was mentioned in Oscar Wilde's The Importance of Being Earnest:
LADY BRACKNELL: In what locality did this Mr James, or Thomas, Cardew come across this ordinary hand-bag?
JACK: In the cloak room at Victoria Station. it was given to him in mistake for his own.
LADY BRACKNELL: The cloak-room at Victoria Station?
JACK: Yes. The Brighton line.
Read SubTalk. Get Culture.
Absolutely true. Strictly the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway; the quote from Oscar Wilde reflects the fact that the Victoria terminus is really two stations side by side, the other one being the London, Chatham and Dover Railway, later the South Eastern and Chatham, and both parts of the station originally had their own cloakrooms.
Later on, the two became respectively the Central division and the Southeastern division of the Southern Railway, and then the same divisions of the Southern Region of British Rail. On privatisation, both the "South Cenrtal" and "Southeastern" franchises were won by the French company Connex, but its performance has been so poor that it has lost the South Central one (the Brighton line), which is now called just South Central. The other one is still "Connex Southeastern".
Ah, even more culture!
No matter how bad Privatisation may be, it keeps things interesting. :)
When I was in LOndon Last May Simon Billis to a picture of me on the Train under a sign that said Brighton Express with a sailboat emblem
Did you have a numeral 1 with you?:-)
No. I can t remember where I left the picture on the computer either.
Brighton Beach was named the same time as the railroad reached it. Culver, as you said, was a person. I'm not sure why they renamed the BB&CI "West End," except maybe because it had the westernmost main terminal on Coney Island. But the Culver ran much further west.
There were a number of notable features of the Sea Beach. Like the Brighton, it had its own private right-of-way and it offered the overall fastest route to Coney Island, connecting to its ferries at the Bay Ridge end. It was home to the Coney Island Express, steam and electric. More than any of the other lines, Coney Island was its raison d'etre.
But none of these suggests a name for the road. Maybe "Sea Beach" is the most appropriate.
Thanks Paul. Now maybe those ying yangs from the Culver, Brighton, and others will now clam up. Then again, some people never get the message.
did anyone name foggy bottom in the d.c. system?
Yeah. That name has been around since colonial times, although I am not sure of the origin. It isn't very foggy anymore, that is for sure. My guess is that it once was quite foggy and it is very low in terms of elevation. If you bike down to K Street under the Whitehurst Freeway, there is only one way to go: UP!
I am now being told it came from a swamp that used to be in the area. Can someone confirm one of these theories?
Most of DC is built on a swamp. Now the swamp creatures are above ground running DC and this country. : )
Foggy Bottom was a Foggy Swamp, and Mosquito Malaria Base back 100 + years ago
It's great to have back on Subtalk Bob even though your posts are horse dung.
Now I can resume ROTFLMAO when you two banter like that.:-)
Wait until we are together in Person in NY the weekend of Oct 12
As I told Fred, I will be flying in on Monday the 14th. Hopefully you can extend your visit so we can all connect.
It depends on my wife, I can get the time off, but she may not
I can adjust my itinerary, too, if needed.
But now it seems that the West End is the line that makes most of the movies on the Southern Division. Culver and Sea Beach do not get in very often.
Paul: How about the 2 Avenue El running on 1 Avenue and the 5 Avenue El running on 3 Avenue. Then to we have the Broadway Subway running on 7 Avenue and the 7 Avenue Subway running on Broadway.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Or the 8th Ave. line running along Broadway for a spell, then later along 6th Ave.
How about....
In London - The Bakerloo Line and the Jubilee Line
Picadilly
In London - The Bakerloo Line and the Jubilee Line
Don't forget the Waterloo & City Line, euphemistically known as "the Drain".
"Jamaica Center as E and J Train to Jamaica Island"
To bad the weather in NY wasn't a tropical one.
Tsung Mun Line or Wan Chi Station in Hong Kong or do we not consider Asian Lines
Why are these strange names? Do they mean something strange in Chinese?
Strange to us. Familiar to Cantoneese speakers
These are the names of famous chinese actress.
>>>Asian Lines<<<< Would be J M N Q R W Z 6 in canal street Chinatown.
#7 Train to Cancoon, Mexico
That where majority of Mexican Riders were heading.
Long Beach ....Blue Line...
the highest ridership of any Los Angeles M.T.A. rail line
But which one is it ??
Long Beach Blue line?
or
Blue Line ??
it is called both here !!
....................................lol..!!
Knickerbocker Avenue On the M line
What the heck is a knickerbocker? Now I know where the knicks got their name
Knickerbocker refers to the early Dutch settlers of Manhattan Island.
Knickerbocker comes from Washington Irving character in one of his stories Father Knickbocker around 1870
How about Kosciuszko St on the J? How is it even pronounced?!?
The same way as the bridge of the same name that carries the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway over the borough line.... :)
But seriously, I've eard 2 accepted pronunciations for it (the name of a Polish army official who helped out in the Revolutionary war)
Koss-Chee-Oo-Sko
and
Koss-Chiss-Ko
Thaddeus Kosciusko was a Polish national who fought alongside our troops in the Revolutionary War. Later he became the inventor of mustard.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There is more to Father Knickerbocker than what you say. About 110 years ago, Father Knickerbocker was a character who symbolized New York City in human character form. He was very similar to the character Uncle Sam. His character would be a point of NYC pride. Father Knickerbocker was used often for newpaper editorial cartoons to symbolize New York City just as Uncle Sam is used to characterize the American people or the USA.
the los angeles red line ....the subway 2 nowhere...!!
"the los angeles red line ....the subway 2 nowhere...!!"
You say this over and over again. And yet over 100,000 people ride the LA Red Line every day.
http://www.apta.com/stats/ridershp/riderep/01q3rep.pdf
I think Toronto's two lines, Bloor-Danforth and Yonge-Spandina hbave pretty strange names.
Mark
You want a strange name for a rail transit system - there's something called FART in Switzerland.
And of course, after riding FART a few too many times, it's only proper manners to take a ride on the FLUSHING line :-)
Or lay off the beans.:-)
I notice a steel wedge at one of the far sides of the Flushing-bound 7 platform on Vernon-Jackson Station (or was it Hunters Point, correct me if I'm wrong). What is it for?
Saturday Night, 7:30 PM unless otherwise specified in the subjectBusTalkers are also welcome!
Chatham Square is a unique oppurtunity to hold LIVE chats with other siderodromophiliacs (railfans) and busfans. Everyone is welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun-filled evening.
ARE YOU READY FOR CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in. IRC users, connect to channel #subtalklive on the DALNET network (http://www.dal.net for more information).
WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
Saturday Night, 7:30 PM unless otherwise specified in the subjectBusTalkers are also welcome!
Chatham Square is a unique oppurtunity to hold LIVE chats with other siderodromophiliacs (railfans) and busfans. Everyone is welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun-filled evening.
ARE YOU READY FOR CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in. IRC users, connect to channel #chathamsquare on the DALNET network (http://www.dal.net for more information).
WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
We are witnesses to history.
No big deal, next year on March 3rd it will be "03" etc.
yes, but it won't be oh three, oh three, three oh, oh three for another 1001 years.
02/02/2002 - not even very pretty. If you're trying for the palindrome effect, it's 2/02/02.
On my old job, I was in one respect sorry the old data entry computers (before we switched to the Y2K Windows based systems in Fall, '99), were gone, because it would be very easy to key in 020202. But this was before I realized it would fall on a Saturday. 01-01-01 was a holiday, of course. On both that day, as well as the infamous 01-01-00, I ran to the local Metrocard reader to see the date. I'll have to look and see if 03-03-03 is a weekday or not. But of course, the new computers my former co-workers use uses 4 digit year. 11-11-99 was a holiday, and by 11-19-99 (111999) and 11-22-99 the new system was in. Typing in hundreds of court papers with 6 different digits could become tiring, so I was looking forward to those double numbers.
Actually, you’re all wrong. The American date ordering of M/D/Y is:
a) confusing to the rest of the world
b) difficult to sort.
Changing the order to D/M/Y, we have:
a) a forthcoming opportunity on 20/02/2002
b) another one one 30/03/2003
c) noticed we missed one on 10/01/2001
John
I think you're missing the definition of palindrome. Those should be 30/02/2003 and 10/02/2001
Don't hold your breath waiting for 30/02/2003. 2003 is not a double leap year.
I'll wait for "Oh three, oh three, oh three!'
Nothing can hold a candle to metric time, but as far as this silly 365/12 system goes, Y-M-D (from ISO standard 8601) notation is superior.
Mark
Remember when on "The Simpsons" they had Metric Time?
Should Metric time in Springfield have EIGHT hours a day?
"The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead, and that’s the way I likes it!"
40 rods to the hogshead: might want to consider mass transit, Abe.
Mark
ha! ha!
Try measuring a subway platform in rods and chains. Conversion from fractional inches to decimal inches is even crazier. I'm not sure of how many 'stones' I weigh. CI Peter
My high school physics teacher was always fond of 'furlongs per fortnight'.
and of course certan bridges are measured in "smoots"
Just one that I know of. I cross it a few times per week. For those that don't know the story, here it is.
Todd, thanks for the detail. In a small handicap project a decade back we used an odd length in order to get the grade right. We referred to it (inaccurately as it was 66") as a smoot while doing the work.
>>>I'm not sure of how many 'stones' I weigh. CI Peter <<<
Divide your weight in lbs by 14; a stone is 14 lbs.
I'm glad we incorrigible Americans have resisted every attempt to foist metric on us...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm stoned 12X. Metric does have its advantages for accuracy but things like wire gauges just don't fit. CI Peter
I had to use metric time when working on the time cards; 1/10 of a hour = 6 minutes, 3/10 = 18 minutes.
Another type of metric time I first saw when working the Census was using ".5" instead of ":30" and ".25" instead of ":15", etc. Nice idea, but I wish it was taken further.
In astronomical calculations, where hours, days, weeks, etc. are irrevelant, they use a metric time based on the second (microseconds, kiloseconds, etc). But this doesn't seem totally metric because it is still based on the old non-metric unit (seconds). In all the other metric scales they did away with the old units (inches, pounds, cups, Farenheit scale, etc). Just like the Centigrade (Celsius) scale is still based on the freezing and boiling of water, but divides it neatly into 100 (Kelvin is the same scale but based on absolute zero), we could divide the day--the most obvious unit of time into 100,000 parts. I choose this power of ten because it is closest to the 86,400 seconds that make up a day. So you wound have a new unit that is close to a second, but a bit smaller. You could call it a "centimilliday". Then for non-earthly measurements, you could take the same unit and make it the base for a universal scale as Kelvin is.
This wouldn't resolve the problems of the other earthly units, such as months and years which are based on physical cycles which would have to be ignored if you used powers of 10 for days (too disruptive). The week could easily be changed to 10 days, but too many of us believe God instituted the 7 day week, so we don't want to mess with that. But a metric second would be nice. A deciday would be 2.4 hours (144 min), a centiday would be 14 minutes and 24 seconds, and a milliday would be 1 minute and 26.4 seconds. The next smallest unit would be about 8½ seconds, and then the base unit. The metric hour would be a semideciday, at 72 minutes. Short terms (sem, dec, etc) could be used for these units. With this system, you could completely decimalize time.
Looking at how the US never even switched completely to the other metric units as we were supposed to, nobody would probably be interested.
Just to get picky, please note that in what we call a "day" the earth actually makes 1+1/365 rotations around its axis (we don't perceive the extra fraction because we're also revolving around the sun).
So shouldn't a "metric" day be the time for a real rotation, not the perceived one?
The way I see it, there are two fundamental units of time, those related to rotation (the day) and revolution (the year.) From a purely scientific point of view, there's not much sense in trying to squeeze one neatly into the other, because they're distinct and variable measurements. People being the kinds of creatures we are, though, perceive only the passage of time, and any measurement system so radical as to isolate days from years is doomed. We can only hope for a better system, not the best system. It's not a perfect world.
Moving back on track: we'll see a full-length four-track Second Avenue subway long before we see time measurement reform.
Mark
The whole reason time is done the way it is (base 60) is because 60 is divisable. For thousands of years, astronomers used a base 60 counting system for exactly the same reason. Base 10, when you think about it, is not a very useful base as it is only divisable by 2 and 5. 60 is divisable by 2,3,4,5,6,10,12,20,30 and probably several others. This is why, in a non-decimal, non-calculator world base 60 was so ideal. Yes I know we all have our Texas Instruments graphing calculators, but there is not reason we should chain ourselves to them.
>>> 60 is divisable by 2,3,4,5,6,10,12,20,30 <<<
I think you are a little off there Mike. It is not the total numbers that 60 can be divided into, since then a base of 600, or 6,000 would be better. What has to be counted is the number of prime numbers which in base 10 are two, and base 60 are three. 60º in a circle is more likely to have developed from the same base 12 calculations as 12 inches in a foot.
Tom
That's why I don't propose a metric angle measurement (100 0r 100 degress instead of 360). Because so many common polygon angles and other geometric shapes use multiples of three that will go into 360. (You could make a right angle 25º or 250º, but then the 60º of an equilateral triangle will wind still wind up a 6th, and not go neatly into a power of 10) But to divide a day we really don't need multiples of three because time is one dimensional anyway.
Now, if we were to change the base to 3 or 60, then those numbers would become "10", and their powers "100", "1000", etc., and be as easy to multiply as the decimal system. But that would be a really drastic change. A true base 60 would need 50 more single digit numbers before you reach "10". In base 3, you would throw out the numerals 3-9, and the numbers of digits would increase rapidly. (just like binary--base 3). In any new base system, we would have to relearn all of arithmetic, so it's easier to switch measurements to the decimal system.
SI already has a unit for the measure of planar angles. Hint: it's not degrees. No serious modern scientific application uses degrees.
Grade, on the other hand, is measured as a ratio and is easily expressed in handy-dandy base 10. (Can you blame me for trying to drag this mess I've created back on topic?)
You've hit on one of my biggest pet peeves with sexagesimal measurements: we represent base-60 place "digits" in decimal, so manipulating quantities is trivial but unnecessarily time-consuming. And many people don't understand what's going on, so the process can range from being error-prone to intractable.
12 28..31 24 60 60. Intuitive, no?
Mark
SI already has a unit for the measure of planar angles. Hint: it's not degrees. No serious modern scientific application uses degrees.
Sure, radians are great for scientists and mathematicians, but the average dumbass isn't going to express things as a multiple of Pi.
I think the unit he's talking about is the grad. Radians are not SI.
Dan
I think the unit he's talking about is the grad. Radians are not SI.
Sure they are.
Mark
What's SI?
By grade being measured as a ratio, are you talking about the percentages (vertical being 100%, 45º bring 50%, the highest grade the trains can take is something like 5%, etc)? I forgot about that. I only knew of it from transit talk (such as the specifications for the Rutgers-DeKalb connection)
What's SI?
Metric, or properly, the International System of Units. The French got their way, so it's «Système Internationale d'Unites.»
By grade being measured as a ratio, are you talking about the percentages (vertical being 100%, 45º bring 50%, the highest grade the trains can take is something like 5%, etc)?
Almost. Grade is the "rise-to-run" ratio, or the tangent. Horizontal is 0 (no "rise",) 45º is 1 (100%, "rise" and "run" are equal,) and since there's no "run," vertical is infinity (or undefined, depending on your perspective.) The relationship between grade and angle is not linear.
Mark
There is a system which divides circles into units of 100: Gradians. Gradians make a right angle into 100 Gradians and a circle is 400 Gradians.
Oh, I had heard of gradians, but never knew what it was, and never knew there was such a system (a part of math that escaped me).
Your stealing your idea from the First Republic in France.
but too many of us believe God instituted the 7 day week, so we don't want to mess with that.
That's not a good excuse. The Catholics and Protestants get to have their religious calendar be the same as the civil calendar. No other religion has that luxury, there is no reason why religion should be the only barrier in developing a different calendar system. Obviously the cost of conversion is the primary problem.
Besides, I don't think that everyone who believes in God actually believes in the Story of Creation. A lot of people believe in the theories of the Big Bang and of Evolution and at the same time believe in some sort of diety (or dieties).
There are 7 days in the week because there are 7 planets (wanderers in latin). Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were not known until the 18th and 19th centuries and 1930 respectively. The Earth doesn't count, and the Sun and Moon do.
The Egyptians briefly used a 10-day week before moving to a system in which every day of a 7-day week would be named for the same planet which is holy to the first hour. Since under the Geocentric Theory the planets are in the order (from outside to the inside): Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon. With 24 hours, the days would be arranged in the following order: Saturn, Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus. As time passed, the first day became the Day of the Sun. We still have a Sun Day, Moon Day and Saturn Day, but the other days are named for the equivalent Norse gods (Tiu, Woden/Odin, Thor and Frigga).
I think that we should keep the 7 day week simply because it seems so good a balancing the labour/liesure tradeoff. If you were to change it either workers would complain for having to work more or employers would complain for having to work more. It would also require the re-writing of many different day/week-specific laws.
BTW, I think that Islam also uses a 7-day calendar w/ their holy day occuring on Friday. That is probably about half of the world's population preferring a 7 day week.
True, I wondered how we would intersperse the days off in a 10 day system. It would be very irregular, as we coulnd't put them all together, because that would be too much time with most business shut down, (and no expresses on some lines, to keep us near topic). It seems the 7 day week works best for us, and this is seen as an evidence for divine authorship. I know not everyone believes in this, but there are enough in the world to seriously oppose a change. (The ancients looked upon the 7 heavenly bodies as symbolic of all creation, and here is how they were inspired to postulate the Creation story).
We also must realize that this is a prime example of the "lock-in" effect (like clocks that move around clockwise, QWERTY keyboards, VHS video tapes, 60Hz electricity) etc. The cost of changing the system would probably not exceed the future benifits discounted over an infinite time horizon. Anyway, I don't see any inherent problems w/ a 7 day week. 5 days of work w/ 2 days off (and 3 days off for special occasions) seems to fit everyone just fine.
like clocks that move around clockwise, QWERTY keyboards, VHS video tapes, 60Hz electricity
I don't see how you can compare VHS tapes with those other things. VHS will certainly die when a better standard comes along for permanent storage of video. As the price of DVD recorders drops, the VCR will die.
How the audiocassette manages to survive I have no idea.
Also, wasn't electricity once 25 Hz?
Also, wasn't electricity once 25 Hz?
Still is in the NE Corridor south of New Haven to Washington, DC.
Been that way since the 1930's and won't change soon.
Give the audiocassette time. As CD recording is becoming widespread, we are seeing much less tapes. My wife and I just got rid of boxes of them. I took them to the Parson-Archer crew room, but people only took a couple. I got rid of the rest at my old job, but most people are moving beyond tapes. What you see people listening to most of the time now is bootleg CD's. You can tell them by the plain label (just the title and nothing else), and the disc itself reflects more of a rainbow, plus the recording side has a green tint. This is the new "tape", as it is made easily in the home, now. I too am waiting for the DVD recorders to come down.
Already out, Eric....if you wanna spend $500 bucks for a good Panasonic DVD-RAM drive.....they've got 'em at www.tigerdirect.com or at J & R on Park Row. By the way, the cost of the discs 'em selves is around the same for a PRE-"recorded" DVD--around $30 bucks or so.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I know they're out. I've been following them at J&R since the first DVD-RAM came out around the same time as the first R-142 (Summer 2000). What I prefer is the DVD+RW format by Philips (which came out with the R-143, which I also prefer since it is for service my area--how coincidental that these new trains and tech toys seem to come out together). The first one is out for $1999, but the next one is supposed to come out this month for just $999 and will have more capabilities (such as a write once DVD+R disc not supportrd by the first one.). Then there's the Pioneer DVD-R/RW (They never delivered their floor model to J&R, but you can buy them there now). But it seems the +RW format is more versatile.
QWERTY--That's another pet peeve. I wish they would introduce an alphabetical keyboard-- maybe 5×5 + 1, or 6×4 + 2. It could go right next to the number pad.
I know the QWERTY system is supposed to put all the most common letters together or something, but for someone like me who cannot touch type, I just get lost, with all the fast writing I do on this board and others, or my websites. I would remember the order of an alphabetic system better. They shuold try it as an option, just like the ergonomic keyboards that are split in the middle. The keypads the UPS men use are alphabetic.
QWERTY was designed to keep two typebars close to each other from striking at the same time, since that could cause a jam. It was not designed to speed up or slow down typing as legend often suggests. Letters in commonly used pairs were placed a sufficient distance from each other so as to minimize jams.
You'll notice that the letters to spell out "typewriter" are all along the top row. This was so that a typist's fingers need not leave that row and would be able to type the word quickly (demonstration, anyone?) We can wonder how effective the QWERTY design was with this cute little restriction in place. You'll notice that some common letter pairs are pretty close to each other.
For efficiency, the Dvorak layout was developed, but results were dubious. Modern systems still let you select a Dvorak layout, but moving the key caps around is up to you. But even "hunt-n-peck"ers can become pretty quick with the familiar QWERTY layout, and nobody wants to learn a new keyboard.
When mixed-case typewriters came on the scene, they were complete with a "shift" key which performed a mechanical shfit. There's no physical "shifting" going on in modern devices, but the name of the key "stuck." Ditto with "return" on some keyboards. Fortunately, we managed to rid ourselves of "shift lock."
Mark
Fortunately, we managed to rid ourselves of "shift lock."
Because it doesn't perform that function any more. The modern "caps lock" doesn't shift all the keys, only the letters.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> It seems the 7 day week works best for us, <<<
You say that only because there has been no alternative. As global communications improve, and businesses go to 24/7 operation, perhaps some alternative that shifts the days and hours off each week will become more widespread. As it is now, many police, fire departments and military units have rotating shifts which provide different days and hours off on a rotating basis, rather than a rigid schedule based on a seven day week.
Tom
I quite like the idea of the 3 day week. One day in three off, plus easier patterns for having different days off.
Just as long as we don't have to recite the decibet ... it'd have bad implications for GHIndustry ...
Yep...we have a similiar problem here with our time keeping (for the lawyers and paralegals) when it comes to time and fractions.
Stuart, RLine86Man
In case you might be wondering what I meant with the above message:
We all know our base-ten numbering system (and thus the Metric System) is based on the fact that we have 10 fingers. The Simpsons have only eight, therefore should they not have an Octimal system instead of a Decimal system?
so then the 500 that Bart paid for Bleeding Gums Murphy's album Sax on the Beach was really $320 decimal dollars?
Mark
DMY is used in the UK and almost all Commonwealth countries. MDY is just about USA only. However, it only causes confusion for 11 days a month and usually one can see what is meant. It did take me a while to stop wondering what the 9th of November was about though!
That extra "two oh"...what you been smokin'?
02-02-2002
^^
Shawn.
Oh two = 02
oh two = 02
two oh = 20
oh two = 02
Put them all together you have 02 02 20 02
or 2/2/2002.
My favorite panhandler used to board the F to Brooklyn and "entertain" us with his way off key saxophone playing. He was a Black guy who wore Martian or ET antennas on his head. He said that he was from outer space and would not return until he collected enough money to get back home. He slightly altered his pitch every time. One time he threatened to make Ronald Reagan president again, if he did not collect enough money.
He also threatened to play to the next station if he did not get enough money. He would then go to the next car and do it again. I must have seen him panhandling on the F about a dozen times. The F train must have been lucrative for him.
There is a guy who rides the J who rides some kind of a fake horse. Haven't seen him in a few months tho.
Some gang got pissed and killed him. Feel sorry for the guy.
He is on the A line now. It was a donkey.
A line from where to where? I know he doesn't have boundries. But where on the A line would I be likely to find him?
Well, it's one step up from panhandling, in my view. I'm likely to be more sympathetic to him than to a guy who just says "Spare change?"
I like 'Need one million dollars for wine test.' CI Peter
Seems you're describing ANTENNA MAN
with the offkey sax playing and antennas
on the head.... he had a regular
weekly (manhattan) community cable show
on the Manhattan Neighborhood Network
in about 1997 or so...
If you're thinking of the person I've known, he's been around a while. I used to see him on the #1 line on the upper west side. That's a good 20 years ago.
Cheers!
I wonder whatever became of that guy.
He was an act to watch.
At one point he had legal troubles, he hit a passenger.
He's not so funny when people stopped paying him for bad playing so he just made it painfully loud. Of course he wore earplugs.
I guess he's still around. I don't know where and I don't want to know where.
So he made it to the big time. "Only in America."
I can remember a saxophone-playing beggar on the "2" from the late 1960's to around 1975, also African-American and played off-key!! Of course, if he played on-key he would be playing professionally and not begging! I also remember that he allegedly was blind and that he had a card taped to the bell of the saxophone stating this fact and a beggar's cup also mounted to the bell. I always found it remarkable how he would walk from car to car while the train sped through local stations in the express tracks while playing his instrument, with a cane in hand and remain steady while the train screeched the tight curves near the Central Park run. As a teenager in those years, my friends and I got a kick out of putting our feet in his path as he approached to see how he artfully dodged our obstructions as if to prove to ourselves that he was a fake, phoney, and a fraud. Who knows if he indeed was blind? Who'd dare prove it? If he was, he had a lot of guts for trying what with sickos and muggers aplenty in those days. You remember muggers, don't you?
While we're on the topic, do you remember the variety of beggar known as the "pencil pusher?" The man (or woman) would walk into a moving car, distribute pencils or pens with a card attached that read " I'm blind, mute, what-have-you and selling these pens is the only way that I support myself. Please buy one." After the entire car had these pens, he/she would get money or the pen back. A variant of this beggar pushed fresh Florida grapefruits!
I can still replay in my mind the sound of the blary sax combining with the screetching of the subway wheel flanges as this cacaphony echoed on the tunnel walls aboard trains that had every window open and end door wide open.
Only in NYC.
Tunnel Rat.
I've seen "pencil pushers" in Roosevelt Field Mall food court.
Security did next to nothing to stop them when I complained.
I remember a guy who had a stick and he would walk from one end of the car to the next singing while making a beat with his stick. It was one of those blind sticks. He sounded pretty good, and I only saw him twice, once on the F, and another time on an R.
There was a college-age girl with a huge backpack who worked the PATH turnstile at the World Trade Center when there was a difference between its fare and that of the subway. She would tearfully ask directions as to where to switch in Jersey City to get a midtown train. Her problem was lack of fifty cents. She acted totally confused about venturing around beneath Jersey City and of course I wound up throwing her two quarters so she could stay within Manhattan.
Over time in discussion with my equally nerdy-looking friends a fair number of us discovered we had fallen for this. I suspect she is a corporate lawyer by now!!
That reminds me of a woman who walked around the streets with a perscription claiming it was for her son who had asthma. She asked for $5 so that she could get the medicine. She asked me once in my neighborhood, Bensonhurst, about 3 years ago, and then again in Sheepshead Bay with (probably) the same perscription a year ago.
One young woman in Reeboks and business suit with briefcase on a Lex express above 59th:
"Excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry to bother you. I am NOT homeless and I am NOT unemployed, but my rent just went up and my salary isn't high enough to cover it, so if you could just find it in your hearts to-"
I actually heard one ker-plunk. Someone obviously admired her sheer chutzpah.
I'm a member of the Electric Railroaders Association, and every month I get a bulletin of what is going on around the system.
Over the last few months, the ERA has cleaning out their archives and has been offering surplus bulletins. I purchased two years, 1978 and 1979, and it is just amazing how far the system has come since then. The things we complain about today pale in comparison to what was going on then. Some of the "lowlights."
1) R46's with cracked trucks being put in and then pulled out of service.
2) Derailment's involving R10's. (Some pretty serious)
3) Accidents involving various types of equipment in the yards.
4) Trains being cut in half between rush hours (And we complain about the G).
5) Plans to rehabilitate the remaining 198 R16's and approximately 90 R10's as part of the lawsuit between the TA and Pullman over the R46's.
6) Equipment moving all over the place. (R10's and R27-30's on the D, R42's without the proper roll signs)
7) The first QB runs originating from Astoria.
8) When the North Side of the Manhattan Bridge is shut down, the D would run through the Montague Street tunnel, up Nassau Street to Essex Street, and then reverse through the Chrystie Street connector to get to 6th Avenue.
Could you imagine if Subtalk existed then?
And then there's another very bad thing about that time period - almost every car was covered with graffiti.
The only positive I can think of from 1978-79 is the retrofit air-conditioning systems that went in on the R-33/36 Main Line and World's Fair cars (paired, I suppose, with the demise of the Pistachio Green/Gray interiors at the same time, though that's more of an asthetic change than an actual one).
AND...the interior lights were out in at least one car on every train. I was in such a car the first time I rode thru the 60th St. tunnel (a Friday evening in summer '84). Scary, and construction in the Manhattan-bound tube caused the train to crawl. I can still hear the track music, which was strangely in waltz time.
Reminds me of the IRT at that time. Ever IRT train was covered with graffiti from head to toe and it was utterly disgusting. The cars had the beige interior with the orange doors, and plastic seats. But even the seats from time to time had graffiti on them. October 18, 1984 I was on a #1 train when I was 10 years old coming from the Statue of Liberty (which was being restored at that time) which was completely graffiti free with the white scheme on the outside. The car that I was on had the lights off almost the entire trip though, and that included the constant flickering of lights. The train behind mine at Penn Station was another graffiti covered train. My train was stuck for about 5 minutes at 23rd St. due to I beleive was a power-related problem on the train. Man, have times changed from then.
That was the "Snow White" train. The folks at 240th Street Shop and the car cleaners at 242nd Street got jealous at the attention being paid to the R-62s on the #4 and decided to clean up a train of R-29s and keep it clean.
David
There must have been more than one trainset. I clearly remember seeing several miles worth of "Snow Whites" parked on the center track of the 1 line above Dyckman...this was in the late 1980s, prolly Oct. '87 or Feb. '88.
They might have been waiting their fer dere Redboid painting......
Especially since the R-62A's went to the # 1 and da # 3 in around that same time.
Stuart, RLine86Man
There might have been more than one...I really don't remember. However, by 1987-88, the #1 was (as it is now) 100% R-62A. There MIGHT have been some subway cars stored up there (pre-scrapping) that had been painted white by NYC Transit and subsequently graffitied, though.
David
Part of it was also that it permitted a coat of paint to be quickly thrown over any graffiti that had been put on the cars. It was an interesting stopgap in the fight against graffiti. Really I think the death-knell of the graffiti scourge was the proliferation of stainless steel cars (i.e. the R-62 and R-68) and the policy of removing a car out of service once so much as a tag got slapped on there until it could be washed/repainted.
If I'm not mistaken, paint does not adhere well to the R-62 and R-68 cars.
That, and somehow it stopped being popular. Not exactly sure why. Someone else could probably expand on the subject.
One verd: SCRATCHHHHHITI :(
I remember it well. Absolutely repulsive. Ugh!
OTOH, those 7th Ave. expresses really moved.
Presently, the R and E never ascend to the surface. The R did, till 1988 or so.
Which lines, in the past, have also never been vouchsafed a sunlit view?
Which spend most of their time outdoors? I believe the J is the current king, just beating out the 7.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Before 1956, when the IND Fulton St line was extended onto the BMT elevated structure over Libery Ave., the only IND line which saw the light of day at all was the line now referred to as the 'Culver' line (D or F train), which crossed over the Gowanus Canal on an elevated structure and was in 1954 extended to Coney Island over the BMT Culver elevated line. Thus, at that time, the A, AA, BB, CC, D (pre-1954), E, F (post-1954), and GG were all entirely underground. Post 1956, remove the A and rush hour E from the list.
The only IRT lines that were ever completely 'in the dark' were two shuttles: 42nd St and Bowling Green-South Ferry. There weren't any BMT lines that were all subway in those days, as the 4th Ave. local (now the R train) ran to Queensboro Plaza and Astoria.
-- Ed Sachs
Quite right, Ed. Except subtract the GG, since this saw light-of-way at Smith-9th.
It's been mentioned before, but R9s didn't have windshield wipers attached until they began to operate on ex-BMT and the Rockaway Line. I wonder what motormen did when it rained during Sea Beach testing in 1931?
"I wonder what motormen did when it rained during Sea Beach testing in 1931?"
Probably muttered under their breeath "Who the hell was the fool that bought these things without windshield wipers?"
The probably smeared the windshield with potato. No, seriously.
Good point Ed but you forgot the GG train. It's last stop was Smith and 9th Street, an elevated station.
From 1965 to about 1985 the #3 7th Ave. Express operated from 145-Lenox (after 1968, 148-Lenox) to Flatbush & Nostrand. That route was 100% in tunnel. When the #2 and #3 switched Brooklyn switched terminals in 1985 that was no longer true, and the only completely underground IRT route remains the 42 St Shuttle.
Just remembered, there was one all-underground IRT line up until 1958 or so - the 7th Ave/Lenox local from 145/Lenox to South Ferry.
-- Ed Sachs
The IND World's Fair spur was also outdoors.
Presently the B, C, D and 3 trains never see the sun. Maybe the 3 gets a glimpse of it between 145 to 148/Lenox.
[Maybe the 3 gets a glimpse of it between 145 to 148/Lenox]
No maybe about it.
Absolutely. I can see Yankee Stadium from the other side of the river!!!
-Stef
True and I believe the C or CC have never come above ground unless the C ever ran out to Queens on Liberty Ave. (it may have in the past)
www.forgotten-ny.com
I believe the C or CC have never come above ground unless the C ever ran out to Queens on Liberty Ave. (it may have in the past)
The C ran all the way to Far Rockaway for a while about a decade ago. When it did so, it was the only four-borough line.
Actually, it was Rockaway Park, but the important thing was that it was the only 4 borough line.
The B runs on the West End EL and the D runs on the Brighton Line which is a mix of Elevated, Open-Cut and surface.
When I made the posting, the first thing I said was "presently".
Actually the R did see daylight after 1988. Before it was removed from the 4th Ave Local (Brooklyn) run, it would very briefly emerge from the tunnel to cross a bridge that takes 4th Ave. over the Souh Brooklyn RR. Depending on the direction you were travelling, it seemed as if you were peering through a "hole in the tunnel wall" as opposed to being out of the tunnel and onto a bridge since this bridge has the street above you and heavy girders all around the sides, making it very dark and not immediately apparent that the right-of-way is entirely out of the ground. Take the M train and see for yourself; it's interesting and unique for a NYC subway line.
Tunnel Rat.
Get Osama.
You can get a good view of the brigde/tunnel and the Sea Beach on the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway(BQE).
In Phila. the Broad Street Line travels over the Roosevelt Extension which is an expressway. The tracks are totally covered, but if you know what to look for, you can see the covered right of way when driving on the Roosevelt Extension.
Speaking of the Broad Street Line, up until 1956, the line was a complete subway. The Fern Rock station was built on the site of already existing non-revenue trackage, used only to access the carwash and shops. Strangely, Fern Rock is the only place where Broad Street cars can be serviced - unlike the Market-Frankford, which has full service shops at both terminals (though 69th Street is having a shop rehab, while Frankford is having a station overhaul)
I'm trying to picture it. Where?
South of 59 Street/4 Avenue there is a place where you can take a quick look of the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch as it crosses under 4 Avenue. Subway is on an underground bridge.
Douce Man,
That's the spot.
Tunnel Rat
I wasn't sure because you said at one point "South Brooklyn Railway" and "Take the M line". I thought you were refering to the area around 36 St. Oh well, as long as it's straightened up.
There's kinda, sorta another place where the (R) sees the light of day. When it turns from the 69th St tunnel into the 11th St cut (towards the Queens Blvd. line), it does so inches away from where the (N) and (W) leave the tunnel and go up and out to their elevated structure. You can briefly see daylight if your're looking through the front window, or the side window on the left.
:-) Andrew
When it turns from the 69th St tunnel
D'oh! I meant the 60th St Tunnel!
:-) Andrew
The West End also sees daylight briefly as it turns from 4th Avenue onto the old Culver line.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The majority of the West End is elevated.
Kevin me lad, what have you been smoking? The West End becomes an outdoor line just after 36th Street. You might be thinking of that montrosity of the BMT, the 4th Avenue Local, formerly the #2BMT
>>>>what have you been smoking? The West End becomes an outdoor line just after 36th Street. You might be
thinking of that montrosity of the BMT, the 4th Avenue Local, formerly the #2BMT<<<
The topic had sort of gravitated into subway lines that see brief daylight, irrespective of whether they ascend later in their run...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Fascinating, I'll to look for this next time i'm down in NYC.
Tunnel Rat.
I believe the IND 6th Ave/Concourse also operates in a 'tunnel bridge' over the Cross Bronx Expressway though unlike the 4th Avenue daylight cannot be seen...
www.forgotten-ny.com
All of Montreal's subway is underground. As if that solid wall that blocks your view out the front of the trains wasn't enough.
And both trackbeds are side by side in the same tunnel. Plus all stations have side platforms. I am speaking about the original portion; don't know about any of the extensions or new lines.
All stations in Montreal are side platforms and tracks in the middle except for:
De L'Eglise: Two levels, one track and one platform on each level (similar to the CPW stations)
Charlevoix: Same as De L'Eglise
Lionel Groulx: Two island platforms on two levels, Green line trains on one side of both levels, Orange line trains on the other side
Snowdon: Same as Lionel Groulx except with Orange and Blue lines
Jean Talon: Blue Line side only, two levels, one track and platform on each level
And Metros do see daylight at mostly-windows-Angrignon station, even though they aren't really outside.
This has recently been an interesting issue for me as it relates to the subway in Stockholm.
I spent six weeks working on Tub1 ("system 1," for want of a better way to describe it; a "line," in New York terms, with three branches at its south end, so three different routes + a few more in the rush) that's mostly outside -- elevated and at-grade.
I hated it a lot, so I transferred to Tub3 (a single southern terminal and two northern branches), which is almost entirely underground.
One of the comments I frequently got was that I'd be miserable being underground that much!
Do any of the NYC motormen who spend most of their time in the tunnels feel deprived of sunlight?
Just wondering,
Tim
Quick question, Tim - do any of the the Stockholm subway cars have railfan windows? Or are they like the trains in London and Montreal, where unless you're in the cab or you have X-ray vision, you can't see out the front of the trains.
Nope, they don't have railfan windows. At least, none of the cars currently running do. The original cars (C1 and C2) had half-width cabs, and consequently had railfan windows, but those cars are long gone.
The new C20 stock has very large windows on the front of the train, and if you're standing at the door behind the driver you have a shot at seeing out those windows if you cup your hands over your face to cut out the reflections from the lights in the passenger compartment. I've seen people, usually kids, doing this behind me sometimes when I drive.
Regards,
Tim
Victoria Line in London is entirely underground. Circle line gets lots of breaks in the tunnel roof, but does not have anything remotely resembling a view. Glasgow also has a circle line that is completely underground.
What are the acceleration speed of the (answer what ever you can)
Worlds Fair cars
5 train
R-62
R-142
R-32
R-38
R-40 slant
R-44
R-46
R-68
R-143
MNRR M-2
MNRR M-4
MNRR M-6
LIRR M-1
LIRR M-3
Amtrak Metrt-Liner
Amtrak Acela Express (not the HHP-8 & coaches, but the 10 car semi-perminently married, made by bombardier cars)
A answer on any of there willl be gratfully appriciated.
What are the acceleration speed of the (answer what ever you can)
Worlds Fair cars
5 train
R-62
R-142
R-32
R-38
R-40 slant
R-44
R-46
R-68
2.5 MPH/Sec.
You forgot the acceleration speeds of the R26-36 cars as they imbed themselves into the sands.
2Gs at least, eh?
2G's? Try not more than one G.
"2.5 MPH/Sec"
Is that for a full train or an empty one? Since F=ma, and F is fixed (the force the engines can produce), a is going to get lss when m increases.
Load weighing attemts to keep this roughly constant by determining approximately how heavily loaded the train is.
-Robert King
"Load weighing attemts to keep this roughly constant by determining approximately how heavily loaded the train is."
So you're saying a full train can accelerate at 2.5 mph/sec, while an empty train could accelerate more rapidly, except a control mechanism prevents it?
That's basically it. Additionally, a truly overstuffed train could be so heavy that even with all the limitations on the acceleration rate removed by the load weighing mechanism it still won't be able to reach the highest acceleration rate on account of being loaded up too heavily. I've seen this referred to on some specification sheets as "Rate maintainance to #### lbs" where anything beyond that will result in a performance drop - the full acceleration rate wouldn't be reached.
-Robert King
F=MA is correct but in the case of a NYC Subway Car, A is a constant so A=F/M. As the load (M) increases, F is increased proportionally to maintain A at 2.5 MPH/Sec. F is compensated for by means of a device known as a load sensor. It constantly measures the weight of each car and adjusts the propulsion or braking effort accordingly. Although cars are tested in Light load and heavy load (AW0 & AW3) the specifications also call for specific performance at AW1 and AW2 rates. AW0 is equivalent to an empty car and AW3 is at maximum load.
interesting. thanks.
So how come coming out of express stops, one train will out accelerate the one on the other track?
The cars are designed to perform as stated. Of course, there are external factors that contribute to (or detract from) the performance. Maintenance has a lot to do with the performance. If the "rate pots" (on GE cars) are played with as a shortcut to repairing other problems, the car will not perform as designed. Similarly, improperly maintained or adjusted load sensor or other mechanical defects may affect performance. Aside from maintenance, track condition, 3rd rail voltage variations or simply the way the operator operates can cause dissimilarities in performance. In fact, normal tollerances in components from one car to another can account for some variations in performance.
Excellent posts, Train Dude. Learned a lot.
Case in point, I rode with an operator on the C yeterday who started from each station in series (2nd point) for at least ten seconds, before notching up to parallel (3rd point). And entering stations, he started his braking sequence well before entering the platform area, and was down to 10 mph or less by the conductors' boards. As Train Dude said -- much of the disparity can be operator practice.
(But today I rode on the W with a MOTORMAN who knows what he's doing, and he knows who he is!)
Case in point #2...
Thursday night (1/31/02), around 8:30 PM, southbound at Times Square.
W pulls into the station on the local track (prior to switching to the express track south of the station) and makes a station stop. While the doors are open, A Q (circle) pulls into the station on the express track and makes a station stop. There were no holding lights activated as far as I could see, yet, instead of using the Q (circle)'s dwell time to get a head start, the W's Conductor chooses to make a connection! Now BOTH TRAINS ARE SITTING IN THE STATION! I mean, come on people! This is supposed to be RAPID TRANSIT, and some (admittedly well-intentioned) people are sucking the life right out of it! Anyway, to continue...the W leaves, with the Q (circle) separated by the minimum the signal system will allow. Following the W closely on the local track are an N and an R. After a wait, a Q (diamond) comes in on the express track and makes a station stop. While it's in the station, the next W comes in on the local track! Fortunately the Q (diamond) crew had their heads on their shoulders and didn't make a connection. Of course, even with the Q (diamond) Train Operator stopping (or nearly so) for a yellow signal, we caught up to the Q (circle) in front of us on the Manhattan Bridge.
Somewhere along the line, RTO forgot how to run a railroad.
David
>>> This is supposed to be RAPID TRANSIT <<<
Your post brought tears to my eyes since I live in a city where the subway runs on 10 minute headways during rush hour, and the doors remain open in the station at least 40 seconds at every stop. I guess you would call it "Medium Fast Transit" rather than Rapid Transit.
Tom
"Medium Fast Transit"
... or perhaps "half-fast transit" ... (sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself)
Leisurely Transit pretty much sums it up.
And just what city would that be?
- Lyle Goldman
Dave, you must remember there are bulletins mandating connections during non peak hours. RTO knows how to run the railroad. RTO, Signals AND Car Equipment KNOW how to run a less than Rapid Transit System. If they still knew how to run Rapid Transit, we'd have motormen, keybys and brakes.
Amen! And if you screwed up, forget management - TWU would get you.
I am quite familiar with the rule regarding cross-platform connections. The rule requires both trains to be on time. Analysis of the weekday timetables in effect on January 31 (the same one that's in effect now) shows that the W was not on time (it was within NYCT's definition of on-time for an entire trip -- within 5 minutes or less of scheduled arrival time at the terminal -- but it was approximately 2-1/2 minutes late at Times Square. Given that it was due to leave at 8:27-1/2 PM and the following Q-circle was due to leave at 8:31 PM, that would have left 3-1/2 minutes for the following to happen:
W train leaves Times Square on local track and switches to express track
Switch normalizes for express operation
Signal clears
Q-circle (having arrived while the above was happening) leaves
Because the W was already late, that 3-1/2 minute window had closed to approximately 1 minute, which is not enough time for the train to pass over the switch, the switch to normalize, and the signal governing the Q-circle to clear. Furthermore, holding the W at Times Square for a connection with the Q-circle SERVED NO PURPOSE!!! Since the Q-circle had started its trip one express stop away (57th Street), it is highly unlikely that anybody on it really wanted a W, which had passed through that same stop on the local track while the Q-circle was sitting on the express track (even the "wrong" express track) waiting for its starting lights. Additionally, anybody on the W who wanted to transfer to the Q-circle had a chance to cross the platform during the W's normal dwell time at Times Square, and would have had subsequent chances at 34th Street, 14th Street, and Canal Street. By holding that train, the Condcuctor served nobody and inconvenienced hundreds of people.
David
I agree it doesn't make sense for the conductor to hold the train. But the bulletin in effect states trains must make connections during off peak hours for trains arriving on an adjacent platform in similar direction. It does not allow for lateness in intervals unless there is an updated bulletin I am unaware of. There are no rules requiring trains to be on time. Train operators must endeavor to economize their operations to close gaps, providing it can be done with safety. There are rules requiring RTO to ensure trains leave terminals on time. Train Dispatchers must display starting lamps at least 15 seconds before departure. Conductors must have made their departing announcements before the lamps are displayed. All crews are on trains at least 2 minutes before departure. Anything else, the Superintendant will make it appear on time.
I will check further into the rule regarding connections during the week if I remember. In the meantime, I direct SubTalkers' attention to the following rules:
Rule 39(e) KNOWLEDGE OF RUNNING TIME AND SCHEDULE
All employees whose work has anything to do with the running of trains must know the running time and schedule of their run.
Rule 39(f) OBEY TIMETABLE
Train Operators are responsible for running their trains according to the timetable running time, except where conditions on the track interfere, or unless otherwise ordered by printed instructions or by a supervisor.
David
239th crews never touch the dynamic braking package BUT 180th crews always check and measure in propulsion. Their chantings are at least in English. CI Peter
On the subject of F=ma......keep these facts in mind when
discussing the nominal 2.5MPH/s rate on NYCT equipment.
1) As TD stated, F exerted by the motors (tractive effort) is
adjusted to be proportional to m, so the weight cancels out.
2) The total F acting on the train includes other components such
as gravity and curve resistance. Since the system is open-loop
(actual acceleration is not measured and controlled with a feedback
control system), acceleration rates uphill and around sharp curves
will be less. Also, "dead motors" are not compensated for.
3) The constant acceleration portion of the curve is from approx
1-18 MPH only. From 0-1 there is a cushioning step to reduce jerk.
From 18-balancing speed, acceleration rolls off to zero. In this
area of the curve there are differences between rolling stock classes
and load weight, but they are difficult to predict and AFAIK never
measured by the TA.
4) The propulsion package used on the "new tech" trains (R110 and
above) is closed-loop and is theoretically capable of maintaining
nominal acceleration rates further into the speed curve. Currently,
NYCT has the software programmed to approximately emulate old tech
cars to avoid potential problems with signal distances.
3) The constant acceleration portion of the curve is from approx 1-18 MPH only. From 0-1 there is a cushioning step to reduce jerk. From 18-balancing speed, acceleration rolls off to zero. In this area of the curve there are differences between rolling stock classes and load weight, but they are difficult to predict and AFAIK never measured by the TA.
In the area from 0-1 mph, what is the anti-jerk step? 1.25 mph/sec?
Is the rolloff from 18-balancing speed linear? i.e. if VB is the balancing speed and v is the velocity, 18 <= v <= VB then
a = 2.5 [1-((v-18)/(VB-18))]
What is the nominal balancing speed (with/without shunt)?
In the area from 0-1 mph, what is the anti-jerk step? 1.25 mph/sec?
The exact rate and the duration of the step is not something that
is specified or calibrated. Subway car control equipment has had
one or more cushioning steps since the dawn of automatic acceleration.
In the current "SMEE" equipment, and I hope Train Dude will jump in
if I make a mistake, there are 2 intermediate steps on the control
group between coast and switching. A cushioning resistance is
present in the very first step, and full field shunting. The second
step eliminates the cushion resistor and reduces the field shunting,
the third step, which is where the group holds in switching, makes
a further reduction in shunting. I believe the fields are 25%
shunted in switching, which leads to reduced tractive effort, and
of course considerable series resistance remains in the circuit.
These steps are not under rate control, so they happen at whatever
speed the pilot motor happens to turn (which should be reasonably
constant).
Is the rolloff from 18-balancing speed linear
LINEAR??? Good lord, no. BTW, I say 18 MPH. That's an estimate
of about where on the speed curve all of the resistance has been
cut out and the motors (OK, the series pairs of 300VDC motors)
are in parallel and directly across the 600VDC line. From that
point until balancing speed, figuring out the speed vs acceleration
curve is very, very messy analytically. The problem is almost always
solved graphically, by making use of a chart known as a DC motor
characteristic curve, which is constructed empirically by the motor
manufacturer, and relates torque to current given a particular
constant line voltage (usually taken as 600) and field shunting
percentage. The motor curve is nasty mostly because the flux
produced by the field windings is related to the field current
by the B-H saturation curve of the steel poles. Armature reaction
(the additional field component produced by the armature current)
also has to be factored in.
What is the nominal balancing speed (with/without shunt)?
With the original field shunting, the nominal balance speed is
50 MPH, per the car procurement specs. That was with 100 hp
motors. With the upgraded 115hp motors, probably about 55.
With those motors but no field shunting, about 42.
Hey TD, do you know if there's any truth to the old story that the LIRR M-1s were origionally going to be set for 2.5mph/s acceleration, too???
BTW - I'm not certain on the Acela Express, though it seems to be a bit better than 1 mph/s, which is better than an AEM-7, and less than the TGV.
The NJ Arrows appear to be able to do 2.0 mphs or so, at least up to a decent speed on 25kv. The Silverliners are pretty quick, too.
The origional Metroliner was supposed to be decent, but if a car or two on the train died, became a real dog.
As for running, I've observed 7 car New Haven line trains running 80+mph with 4 cars dead. I've heard the M-1s can maintain 80mph with 1/2 the cars in a train dead, too.
I was riding with Mr R46 on the Corridor while he was troubleshooting his train of AC motored Arrows as they died out, with ONE single car left. That one car pulled us to 60 MPH.
Where is The Transportation Professional Formerly Known as Mr. R46??? he has not graced us with his prescence for EONS!!!
Quite busy, tied down at arbitration, discipline and unfortunately, a death in family last week. It will be eons before I can even remember his handle.
I guess Erik will be busy pretty soon with contract negotiations, too.
He sends his love. I spoke to him before the Supt Shuffle. I hope they let non executive board members in on the action there for the CBA meetings.
Fortunately, the big Superintendent shuffle did not affect my little corner of the universe. My RTO counterpart and I have an excellent working relationship that I'd hate to lose. I also hope it hasn't affected a certain District 5 night Supt. who I hope to see this evening. Yes, I'll be prowling the system tonight.
I was wondering about him, too. His report concerning a northbound Brighton Superexpress was an all time classic.
I printed a copy of that memorable post. Wish I had been on that train!
Steve, we think along the same lines. I also printed out and saved that post. I wish I had been on that train, too.
Our last trip together, we worked the A out of Lefferts. We got rerouted through the Rutgers due to trackwork and as I recall rocking over the old unwelded rail there, I recall hearing a "fasten the seat belts, we will be cruising at 150 KM through some turbulence" announcement leaving York St. He had a knack for reroutes.
The 54 mph is what really stands out. It must have felt like:
super express, super express, slant R-40 super express
scrollamount is too high. A slant would self-destruct at that speed.
So you remember that classic post, too. Did you also print it out?
Sorry, I was refering to the scrolling text. It was too fast to read. I actually don't remember the original post. If you have the number, I'd be curious to see it.
Steve, the post no. is 120562.
What made this post so memorable was the way the story was told. It begins with a not-so-unusual happenstance and gradually builds into a railfan's dream. We were told in detail of this extraordinary run and the theory of what allowed it to occur.
If Dave, the website host, should ever compile an "Annals of Subtalk" this story would have to be in there.
The post is from May 18, 2000 (what I've been a subtalker for 2 years?). Now you'll understand how Steve B8AVEXP and myself remember this contribution and the contributor, The Transit Professional known as Mr. R46.
--Harry (Q Brightliner)
That was the Transit Professional Formerly known as Mr R46. They are utter garbage compared to what they should have been.
Wow! I just went back into the archives and reread that post.
Thanks again, Erik, wherever you are!!
You're right, I left out the "Formerly". But the post was not about R46s, but rather an extraordinary ride on an R40 slant.
I had to throw in a plug for my friend, a fan of former R46s
Those sound like R-46 door chimes.
Thanks! I just went back and read it. It was a great post and a great reminder of some of the contentious debates we used to have here. What's more, as Erik said, it showed I was correct about my theory about subway car speed. Keep posting stuff like that and HeyPaul will be going for the greyhound exhaust pipe.
Went looking for it and couldn't get beyond an error on message number 120562 ... izzat da right number?
Kevin, go to Archives page. Where it says "Posted within last" choose "several eons". Then select "Poster" as "Transit Professional". Look at May 18, 2000. It's well worth the trip!
--Harry
Heh. Cute story ... and R1/9's were able to do that as well though requiring the stops. I know that downgrade and no doubts as to the speed. Only difference of course was that the old girls hadn't been neutered. :)
I believe the Brightliners did that in their day, too, but of course, with the stops this was not SUSTAINED for over a mile. But you said elsewhere that you ran Brighton/Concourse in 70/71. Wasn't the rolling rubble getting scarce on the D by then, with the introduction of the R42s?
They removed them off peak ... but during rush hour, all the old girls that didn't have arthritis came out to dance. And dance they did until a door jammed or a pipe busticated. :)
Once in a while a train of oldtimers could be had on the D on weekends. The last time I got one was around December of 1969. No headlights, either. The CPW dash was a blast.
They were rare aside from Saturday mornings while some cars were doing their car wash thing ... the TA wanted to get the old girls off the railroad as much as possible aside from rush hours when they were still short of cars ...
I think I got a prewar A train from 42nd St. twice in three years of regular Saturday commuting. Maybe one from 14th St. northbound in the afternoon and one, maybe two from 59th St. southbound. In general, my R-1/9 rides on the IND were few and far between. Most of them occurred in 1967, before Chrystie St. By far and away, most of my IND rides in those days were on A trains of R-10s, followed by D trains of R-32s.
Yep ... the TA went out of their way to hide the R1/9's except for "rush" ... of course, they were still stuck on the E and ended up on the Eastern Division. MOST D trains were 32's with the gapped 42's to stop the whining about "why don't WE get air conditioned cars?" ... NYC residents are notorious whiners. Heh.
But yeah, off-peak, the D train was KNOWN for its 32 fleet ... with the occasional "bingbong" every good gap ...
Needless to say, when a train of oldtimers did pull in on the A or D, my eyes would become saucers. Oh, goody! No headlights to boot! It's a crying shame that most of those rides were brief, only a few stops usually.
Then there was that R-1/9 train which was returning from Aqueduct, signed as an S/Special, but running as an E express. We caught it at Broadway-Nassau and rode it to 42nd St., skipping Spring St. and 23rd St. I watched it leave 42nd St. after getting off, and it turned off onto the E line to Queens.
By the way, how did you take that downgrade? In full parallel or did you let up a bit?
Once you got up to speed and weren't climbing, didn't make sense to keep pulling power when you didn't need it - coasting was normal operating mode on flat territory or a downgrade ... unlike the newer trains, when the controller was in the "off" position, you weren't feeding loads or dynamic braking that would cause you to slow down much. But yeah, sometimes I'd stay wrapped just to see what difference it made ... not much actually ...
I still remember one afternoon, around 3:20 P.M., 1966 or thereabouts. I was on a southbound Q Brightliner. I was in the front of the train looking out the window as we pulled out of Newkirk. There was a young motorman in the cab, probably someone unfamiliar with the Brighton line, and an older gentlemen, probably an instructor, standing behind him propping the door open. I'll never forget his command to his younger counterpart: "TAKE IT UP FULL".
Was "WRAP IT!!!" ever a common phrase among instructors?
Yes, but not in your first few rides ... you were too busy with your knees shaking on you to even respond to "wrap it" ... they saved that for the later days of your breaking in ... first few days were very formal, things such as "take it to the third notch now" ...
Yep ... that's classic motor instructor ... and between 1964 and 1972, pretty much everyone on the railroad was being swapped out with kids like myself. The 32's were VERY much like a redbird cab in their layout and they were "peppy" compared to the wrecks used in school car at the time. So your first time on the road was literally "ride'em cowboy" and the motor instructors spent a lot of time reassuring you that they really were supposed to run that fast. :)
I can only imagine what it was like with the R-10s on the A.
For the record, the R10's had faster acceleration than R1/9's from an equal takeoff, KNOWN "dueling motormen" for handle-grabbing traits but the R1/9's won the race if they had motors ... balancing speed was higher than the R10's for the ORIGINAL motors ... it was only 1-2 MPH, but you could STILL savour it. :)
SCREW the R10's ... RX's ... a PROPER D train. Heh.
As you know, I loved both car classes. They were both near and dear to me. It's just that I rode on the R-10s much, much more on the IND than the oldtimers.
My first ride on the Queens line in May of 1968 was memorable, to say the least. We got a prewar E train and man, did it move!! Might have been one of those R-6/7 mixes that Wayne speaks so highly of.
Yeah, the peppier ones did end up out in Queens ... once upon a time, the Queens line was the most important piece of the IND based on use so they tended to get the better equipment ...
Wayne says the R-6-2s may have been the fastest of the bunch. 1233 once headed an F train whose bull and pinion gears were wailing away at A-440. That's fast, folks. That particular train must have had every motor functioning. Ditto for that R-10 consist headed by 3080.
I'd be curious as to how high the bull and pinion gears got up to at that point.
They got up there but I never thought to take a guitar tuner with me to record the pitch. I wasn't all that much of a musician (David Peel can tell ya, heh) but I knew the pitches for the speeds I was supposed to be doing at various points along the railroad ... that's why we didn't need any stinking speedos back in those days. The TRAIN told ya how you were doing ...
I enjoyed some of HeyPaul's contributions and wish he were back here. But I did have misgivings with those who claimed to have witnessed this speed or that without confirmed evidence, or who mistook the quietness of the R68s as slowness (when the only statistical evidence ever presented here was to the contrary), and I really remember you very much did take issue with them, too.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.:-)
Super express, super express. Slant R-40 super express
What was amazing about the whole thing is that it was a SUSTAINED speed, for over a mile. Gotta be some kind of record.
Any railfans on that train had to be drooling.
"Hey TD, do you know if there's any truth to the old story that the LIRR M-1s were origionally going to be set for 2.5mph/s acceleration, too??? "
No, I wasn't aware of it but it was/is within the realm of possibilities. I believe that the rates on the SCM-4 propulsion package are adjustable. The determining factors then would be the size of the traction morors and the weight of the car.
It seems logical that a train, running on level ground, can maintain speed even with dead motors. Inertia is a powerful thing.
Recall that an automobile, heavily loaded, may require additional time to reach 60 mph on a road, but once there, it will not require the engine's full horsepower to stay at 60 mph; it will only require enough power to overcome wind resistance, and friction, really. Once a body is in motion, it wants to stay in motion.
A Triplex would be a classic case in point.
SMEE cars motors and control are basicly all interchangeable, therefore have the same rate.
Ditto with the MN/LIRR stuff.
Amtrak Acela Express (not the HHP-8 & coaches, but the 10 car semi-perminently married, made by bombardier cars)
AE trains have 6 coaches with two locomotives on each end.
It's still going like the energizer bunny. A couple of 'Birds can be seen at the front of the yard on 10th Avenue, as I found them tonight. I made mental notes and found the cars heading to the Reef are Pelham's Old Fleet, all yellow stickers. A diesel locomotive could be found at the front of four shells. I suppose the diesel was going to move them over to the side of the yard by the river for barge loading.
I was able to identify at least two cars stripped and ready for the reef, R-29s 8630-31.
If Delaware has their 400 Cars, who's getting the next batch?
-Stef
8630/8631 have been out of service for a few months. The January 2002 ERA bulletin says that work is going to start up again.
I don't think they have reefed 400 cars yet, have they?
400?! Feels like 4000.
A Prominent ERA member who posts under the name "Widecab5", came up with a grand total of 425 deadbirds.
8630 and 31 were probably in dead storage at Concourse Yard before being stripped at 207th Street.
-Stef
South Carolina was getting the next 300.
Other states were Georgia, Virginia and, of course, New York.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
recycle the metal do not pollute the ocean...
This has been discussed already. There is a problem with asbestos on the redbirds. It is wiser for them to be dumped in the ocean than to risk possible lawsuits by selling off cars that contain asbestos to scappers. Lots of parts are removed before reefing that will be stored, recycled, etc. The only thing going into the water is the car body shell. I'm sure the EPA or someone would have thrown a fit if there was a real danger to the ocean.
Shawn.
drop it in a smelter or that thing that melts metal....
U know.........
Fibers could still be released into the air and that is against the law last time I looked.
Oh, and in case you don't recall why there's asbestos there...
IT DOESN'T BURN!!! IT'S FIREPROOFING MATERIAL!!!
Ok, sorry I'm yelling.
Asbestos abatement is very expensive stuff. Scrapping the cars is impractical because they have to remove the stuff and then dispose of it somewhere, and of course, people think asbestos is like plutonium.
Blame the lawyers for making it impractical. Asbestos litigation is quite the racket (just listen to the commercials for the lawyers who specialize in this stuff).
My high school had to remove all its asbestos floor tile years ago because the parents were up and arms. Mind you, asbestos floor tile can only hope to cause illness if you grind it up and inhale it! Which is pretty much what the Polish guys in the spacesuits (and yes, there's a lot of Poles laboring in asbestos abatement) had to do to scrape the stuff off the concrete.
>>>. Asbestos litigation is quite the racket <<<
YES it is.
I've always maintained such. Foe chirst sake, I was raised in a house with abestos shingles. I think abestos abatment IS ONE BIG FRAUD, imho/
PEACE,
ANDEE
>> Asbestos litigation is quite the racket <<
One werd: ABSOLUTELY.
My firm does defense counsel to several relatively large companies, even including the MTA---if anyone remembers I stated a current Federal Court case in Brooklyn---The U.S. versus Metropolitan Transportation Authority...I'll look up the Index No. and get back to you...briefly, it entails the MTA's FAILURE to properly neutralize potential asbestos contamination while removing sheets of roofing laced with "transite"---an asbestos containing material.
By the way, I found out the NAMES OF STATIONS included in the allegations:
Brighton Beach Station--1992 Lines: Delta and Quebec (D/Q)
Ocean Parkway Station--1992 Line: Delta (D)
Central Avenue Station--1992 Line: Mike (M)
Seneca Avenue Station--1993 Line: Mike (M)
Knickerbocker Avenue Station--1993 Line: Mike (M)
Forest Avenue Station--1993 Line: Mike (M)
All of these stations were abated of "ACM" (asbestos containing material" during the times I stated above. Exact dates, I am afraid, I am not allowed to give out, as it's a "work-product" of the firm...just the basics.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Some I'm doing RotBoid Carbody today and I'm looking at an inside panel. Looks like tar over some kind of? Where the asbestos exactly is...is anyones guess...but the CTAs are bitchin because CIs flush out their noses over the sinks and leave black/green gobs of...CI Peter
Do you think they would have allowed dousing the Composites with gasoline and burning them today? Those cars were LOADED with asbestos.
I tore the asbestos siding off my house about 20 years ago and just broke it up and put it out with the trash! You can't do that now!!!
Chuck Greene
Yeah, my dad and I were wondering how we'd take care of the asbestos shingles on his house. My suggestion was slowly putting a little at a time in the trash, mixed with other crap. Kinda how I got rid of the carpets in my Co-op. They slowly disappeared into the dumpsters...
Back in Spain, my neighbors there had all this PVC wall panels all over their house (don't ask me, it was popular for a short time in the late 70's/early 80's in Spain, and was cheaper than tile somehow). Anyway, they removed this stuff and had it in a big pile in the backyard. So, my neighbor says "I figure I'll just burn it and get rid of it that way."
Yikes.
Riiight... the smelter will pollute a LOT less than putting a piece of steel (which is largely made of stuff that is mined from the earth) containing a small amount of asbestos (which, last I checked, is also a mineral that comes from the earth) in the ocean.
Kids, it's not plutonium.
Yes, it sounds bad to just toss it into the ocean, but it does create some considerable benefits:
1. The fishies love it. The nooks and crannies of an artificial reef make a nice breeding ground (especially for egg-laying)
2. Plant life will abound (which helps oxygenate the ocean so the fishies are happy
2. Reefs also will help combat beachfront erosion.
Really, it's a win-win for the humans and the ocean critters.
One thing I was wondering- Carbon steel in salt water will rust very quickly. I'm hoping it doesn't completely corrode so quickly that plant life won't be able to take a decent root and build its own reef.
There's a lot of Bondo in those carbodies, so I hear. Bondo doesn't break down as fast.
I agree, but some others seem to have ideas of their own. Old cars do no go to scrap anymore, they get reefed....
-Stef
SCTS may have a point there. What exactly happens when Carbon steel sits in salinated water over a period of time? There's got to be some adverse oxidation taking place.
Steel cannot rust without air.
There is oxygen (and nitrogen, and carbon dioxide, among other things) dissolved in the water, else the fish couldn't breathe.
Additionally, there is a single oxygen molecule bonded to two hydrogen molecules in water. The iron molecules can actually break some of those bonds with the hydrogens to produce rust and hydrogen gas:
Fe + H20 = FeO + 2 H
Steel is not a compound, it is an alloy. So, the iron molecules can actually break off of whatever else is in the steel (vanadium, chromium, I'm not sure what else is in there) and even the other elements in the alloy can bond with the oxygen in the water molecules.
Hence, the process of rusting is called oxidation.
It's been a few years since college chem for me, but I think I'm right in principle. I might be wrong on the proportions of the formula. Someone more proficient than me could correct me on this.
Still, not bad for someone who got a D in Chemistry. :)
Actually, it can, but the process is significantly slowed. The process of oxidation simply requires oxygen, which is present in abundance in water. It's the free oxygen which makes the job easier, and that is present in much greater proportions in air.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wouldn't the water pressure cause metal fatigue to destroy the cars before rust does?
The subway cars underwater have water inside and outside. They're not submarines. The equalization of pressure inside and outside, since they're not bouyant, leads to no pressure on the hulls.
An example of this principle is the sunken wreck of the USS Yorktown near Midway (Sunk at the Battle of Midway by the Japanese sub I-168). She filled with water and sank to a depth of a few miles(!). When Ballard discovered her wreck, aside from battle damage, the ship looked just like she did the day she sank. There was no significant implosion or explosion because she essentially filled with water and sank. In fact, oxygen is so scarce at these depths that the ship has little rust to speak of. After 60 years, one can still see the hull number (5) of the wreck and her name on the stern.
A ship like the Titanic, which snapped in half while sinking, demonstrates this principle, too. The bow of the ship filled with water, broke off and sank. The stern of the ship was no longer bouyant, and sank, despite having an immense quantity of air. This portion ruptured somewhere underwater, which is why the stern of teh wreck is heavily damaged while the bow is intact, save for rust damage.
Even if they sank them with windows and doors, implostion or explosion would not happen since the subway cars are not watertight. They would just sink a little more slowly.
Not sure how many birds we've received here in Delaware, but the ocean level has risen an inch or two.
Bill
And, yes, I'm just joking.
dump your infectted trash in the ocean
dump your infectted trash in the ocean
very nice ...........UGH
dump your infectted trash in the ocean
Why is the acelaration on railroads so darn slow? Can't they do something about it?
If a locomotive is pulling a string of rolling stock, how fast do you want it to go - fast enought to pull a drawbar?
MU's have motors on all wheels (or at least 75%). Loco hauled trains have motors only on the locomotive(s).
In Europe trains are shorter, because they lack slack action as trains are really up against each others buffer. The front end moves at almost the same time as the rear car.
I rode on the Amtrak AEM-7's when they were brand new in 1981, and believe me, the acceleration then was impressive. But then, they were pulling 3-4 car trains.
I also rode the Danish-built Flexliner on the Amtrak San Diego line, again, acceleration was impressive.
I rode Southern Pacific commute trains on the San Francisco peninsula behind both Fairbanks-Morse H24-66's and EMD SDP-45's...again, fantastic acceleration.
(I won't comment on LIRR's 12-16 car trains behind ONE Alco Century 420.....hehehe!)
I think the big problem is -- most Amtrak (and Metro-North) trains are hauled by GE locomotives. They are very slow to load up -- but once up to speed can keep it. Amtrak did try the GE's (the 500 series hood units) on the San Diego line when they wre brand new in 1991. Oh, they looked pretty, but toss your watch out the window as the schedule became purely fiction. They had to keep a bunch of EMD F40's out here just to keep schedules. They went and bought EMD F59PHI's just for the San Diego services....the only non-GE diesels in the fleet now (except for a very small handful of F40's...)
All it takes is money.
A big long heavy train has hardly more air resistance than a short one. So once you get it moving, it doesn't take a lot of propuslive force to keep it moving (excpet up a hill).
Since railroads have fewer stops than subways, the temptation is to have less engine power relative to the weight of a fully loaded train. Therefore, you speed up gradually, but once you're moving you're fine. Since the train doesn't stop very often, you don't lose much schedule time.
For commuter trains and subways, this obviously doesn't work. You need more power to get moving fast. But I'm sure that if you did the arithmetic you'd find that a greater percentage of the cost of subway rolling stock was the propulsion system than on a long heavy underpowered long distance train.
I guess they're too cheap to buy new equipment at this time.
Acceleration is usually perfectly fine, but it does depend on the type of stock. SEPTA MU's can hit 60 in about half a mile or less.
Unless you have a time componemt, I don't believe your statement has any real significance.
Actually, this is a meaningful statement. For steady acceleration:
v squared = 2ad,
where v = velocity, a = acceleration, and d = distance.
So the less distance it takes to reach 60 mph (88 feet/sec), the better your acceleration.
If v = 88 ft/sec, and d = 2640 ft, then a = 88x88/(2x2640) = 1.47 ft/sec/sec = 1.0 mph/sec, which is considerably slower than a subway train accelerating at 2.5 mph/sec.
The half mile was just an estimate as the R5 can hit 60 between most stations on the former PRR main line before having to apply the brakes. For real numbers (found in Pensy Power II) a Budd Silverliner could accelerate at 1.8 m/ss and was considerably faster than an old MP-54.
We were discussing accelleration of a railcar. Based on mike's meaningful statement;
"SEPTA MU's can hit 60 in about half a mile or less."
we know as much about the SEPTA MUs as we did before.
You make assumptions that may or may not be true. The major assumption is that mike is capable of judging what a 1/2 mile is from a moving railcar. Even mike says " a half mile or less" which indicates that even he's not sure. Plugging garbage into the best formula still gives you garbage as a result.
How many significant figures should I provide in the future? The railroad distance between Haverford (MP 9.1) and Ardmore (MP 8.5) is .6 miles. A SETPA MU train can attain 60 mph before braking to make the station stop. As I did not feel like looking up the mileposts for some stupid subtalk post I made a 95% confident statement that a SEPTA MU could accelerate to 60mph within one half mile. WAS I WRONG IN THIS STATEMENT OF GREAT AND ALL KNOWING TRAIN DUDE. IS A SILVERLINER IV NOT CAPABLE OF SUCH A FEAT?
Give it up mikey. You are an idiot and I choose not to play anymore.
"You make assumptions that may or may not be true."
My only point was that it is possible to compute acceleration from distance traveled and speed achieved, without knowing the time it took to reach the end speed. I used the claimed measurements as an example.
Neither my post nor the one I responded to expressed any opinion whatsoever about the accuracy of those particular measurements of speed and distance.
I fully understand what you did and have no problem with it. My objection was that Mike used your equation as some sort of vindication for his point of view. My point was that with the statement "1/2 mile or less", no difinitive statement about the accelleration of the subject equipment could be made without a time component. I still say that mike's information was absolutely useless as given.
Why is the acelaration on railroads so darn slow?
Simple - poor power to weight ratio.
Can't they do something about it?
Sure. Make the equipment lighter, and add more power to the train. That's how the Europeans do it, and it's very effective. Granted, they have the benifit of electrification, but diesel multiple units are equally effective in the 0 - 90mph range.
The trick is to drop the weight and add power - European trains often have 3 or more times as much power per ton as US ones do. Even the Acela is considered underpowered by European standards.
(of course, high acceleration has long been known to reduce running times)
European trains are also cramped (in the UK the loading guage is less than that of an IRT car!), bouncy and they completely disintigrate in an accident. When it comes to trains, Europe is not someone we should aspire to.
I don't think you are correct in your statement Mike. Which county's rail system should you aspire to? After Europe comes the far east. Not much left after that.
Simon
Swindon UK
We should aspire to our own rail system of 50-60 years ago.
Now that would be good !
Simon
Swindon UK
One must forgive Jersey Mike. He substituted broad, sweeping generalizations for facts when he wants to say something but has no real information to support his point of view.
I have more information than you do as the only things you post are insults and attacks. Hey, how'd it feel getting shot down with my little acceleration for a given distance and speed statement?
I would accept Steve's credentials as a railroader over yours any day.
Well if TD ever actually provides contradictory information feel free to take it more seriously.
A TD is better than a FUMBLE!!!
Oh, is that so? You posted nothing of fact or substance. Where did you get the 1/2 mile figure? Where did you get the 60 MPH? Those aren't hard numbers, mike, are they? They are just your estimates based on nothing more than your small mind's estimation of some large distances. The fact that someone else came up with a formula based on two or more variables says nothing more than there is a relationship between accelleration and distance. It gave no specific information - much like your post gave no specific information.
Now if you think you have more information than I do, that's one mistake. If you think you have more knowledge on the subject, that's your second mistake. If you keep trying to one-up me. mikey, that'll be your third mistake.
I got the distance from mile markers and the speed from the cab speedometer. It is a better estimate than nothing at all which was the figure that you provided.
How do you get a 1/2 mile from mileposts?
Ardmore it as MP 8.5
While you are working at showing everyone how smart you are, why don't you explain to us how the load sensor on the M-3 compensates for passenger load. Feel free to include as little as you need to.
Let's see you come up with the acceleration specs for a SEPTA Silverliner IV first.
I can do that with a simple phone call, mikey. Can you do some critical thinking?
If finding information is so easy for you why don't you ever save the board from my wanton ignorance by posting the absolute correct answer to everything? It'd save a lot of strain on my fingers.
So what are you two getting each other for Valentine's Day?
Heh. Oh the images that conjures ... STOP! You're going to make me put her in the hole. :)
Maybe instead of Spy Vs. Spy from the old Mad Magazine Buff Vs. Buff.
Yeah, except one has a clue and the other has a foamerglass. Won't choose which side's got which though. Heh. I find it quite amusing though at how them R68's handle JUST like an SD80MAC with 150 carloads. (grin)
Have handles, have unlimited power ... yeah ... :)
I am no railfan or techie but I bet they don't brake the same.
Heh. Got a few grams of PROFF in that handle bag, bro? :)
What is that? One of those old time hippie drugs or one of those rave drugs?
Heh. Worse ... it's a TA drug ... as we all know, an SD80MAC can only run in A division tunnels. :)
Maybe its a good idea for the two of them to get together. Its going to be lots of fun.
Mike, for me it is just that easy. One phone call, superintendent to superintendent. However, as you've demonstrated time and time again, you are not interested in information. People tell you that the NYC subways are known as NYCT and you argue. I tell you that a trade magazine stated that the LIRR is going to reconfigure the Queens interlocking and you argue. Need I go on? You need to do some growing but until then, I choose not to deal with you anymore.
I never had any doubt that finding the information is easy for you. In fact it was my point. You have all this access to information yet all you ever post is insults. Even in this thread you have not posted one figure relating to the acceleration of any railroad vehicle. At least I came up with a perfectly correct lower bound figure for a typical DCEMU. Post the info and I won't argue with you. Saying that I am just wrong won't cut it. Post the info and you'll get no arguments from me. Post insults and you will. I never argue with the facts you present. I never said that the subway wasn't called NYCT, only that it shouldn't be called that. I didn't dispute that QUEENS was in for a $19 million overhaul only that you shouldn't act like an ass and just give me a straight answer. The truth is that you don't care about helping answer people's questions. You're just a nasty jerk who enjoys tripping people in the lunch room.
Why is the acelaration on railroads so darn slow?
Just as a reminder, the weight of the train versus the power produced by one (or two) of its locomotives can make a difference.
I've seen that ALP-44's on NJT take a little time to reach even 10mph, but after a minute they can zoom.
EMU's are the best at accelerating, as experienced in NJT's Arrow III cars, because they don't have locos to produce power, but each car to move.
Can't they do something about it?
Wait until the old rolling stock retires and wait for the new ones.
I can't wait until the new ALP-46's come out on NJT which is capable of producing more power than the ALP-44's, but I don't know about acceleration.
Yes, to add, long distence high speed trains have much higher a gear ratio. This allows higher speed. A higher gear ratio also hampers acelaration. Rember these are long distence trains and the stops are far apart. They do take a while to reach speed. A low gear ratio means a high rate of acelaration but a low top speed.
Which would explain that NJT's Arrow III EMU's have a limit of 100mph, while an ALP-44 has a top speed of 125mph, but will never go that fast during service.
Hey, Airtrain, when you say "acelaration," do you mean acceleration, or do you mean the increased use of Acela on railroads?
- Lyle Goldman
Wouldn't "Acelaration" mean less Acela to go around? :)
There have been a number of articles and editorials about the fast, cheap clean up and reconstruction at the WTC. Everything costs less, and takes less time than projected based on usual NYC standards -- due to less red tape, featherbedding, goldbricking, and contractor fraud.
You don't need slave labor. WTC contruction workers are getting fat on overtime. You don't need less safety. There have been no deaths at "the most dangerous worksite in America." I assume the construction companies will make a profit.
The Daily News drew an analogy to new subway lines. At the WTC price we can afford them. At $1 billion per mile we cannot. That is THE issue here.
The entire WTC rebuild "community" CARES about what they are doing, THAT is the difference.
Yes, it is amazing how much work can get done and in how little time when different businesses, unions, politicians and other special interest groups aren't working at cross purposes with each other. Odds are we're getting a little indication of how the work on the Contract 1 subway line and other early routes must have gone when the enitre NYC community shared a single purpose towards getting them built.
It would be nice if the leaders could follow up on that with some other projects -- like the Second Ave. subway or even the No. 7 extension to the west side -- while the unity is still there, instead of waiting until the "Where's mine?" attitude returns to the forefront.
The rebuilding of the South Ferry line, at published figures of $1 million per day, may ultimately cost $300 million total. Of course this is rebuilding an existing line.
I just received the Dec.2001 Subway map. I noticed some "new" line in Manhatten called the Grand St. Shuttle. When did this line start? What purpose does it serve? What line would it be a remnant of?
The short answer is that the north side of the Manhattan Bridge is closed for repairs, thus giving the B and D no place to go.
For more information and opinion than you could possibly want to hear, see some extremely voluminous recent threads about the Grand St shuttle and the Manhattan Bridge.
In a nutshell:
The 6th Ave {North} side of the Bridge is closed, so the B/D run from the Bronx to 34th. They can't go to Grand b/c of switching issues. Therefore, the only way Grand St could be served is with a shuttle to the main 6th Ave line, which is what this line does. It is only temporary until the North Side is back where as the B/D and possibly Q can go back to their regular routes.
Thank you. One more thing I forgot to ask (how in the world did I forgot to ask this one?) is it OPTO?
Not 100% sure, but probably. I'm not even sure if it is a 2 car or 4 car train. I've seen it a few times but never observed the number of cars.
Yes, it is although I believe it does have someone riding at the end to reduce the relay times.
The Q is back on its regular route on Broadway
I never said it wasn't.
It is a 4 car train of R46 cars.
It is OPTPO in the sence that it has no C/R, but it has two T/O.
Robert
The concept behind OPTO was to cut costs. Last I looked, two T/Os cost more than one T/O and one C/R (granted not by much...).
I guess another aspect of using two TO's on the shuttle is to cut time. When the train crosses over to the SB track just north of West 4th, if there was only one TO, he/she would have to walk through each of the locked 75' doors to get back to the front. Add to that the possibility of forgetting to relock the doors may lead to possible lawsuits.
Yes. Well, sort of... The Grand St Shuttle is a four car R46 train with two (2) T/Os, one at each end - just like the 42nd St Shuttle. Actually, it is two four car trains that pass each other at W. 4th St.
Pass each other at W 4th?
You mean Bway Lafayette right? The terminals are W 4 and Grand.
If you take a look at the MTA's schedule (see http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subspick.htm), you'll see he means West 4th.
The reason they meet each other at W 4th is that for the portion of the trip between Grand and just west of Bway Lafayette the trains must both run on the Brooklyn bound track (see the big downtown track map at http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/index.html).
Saturday I was at W4 St waiting for the F. I noticed a Grand Street Shuttle come into W4th on the Uptown Express Track, go into the tunnel north of the station, Change ends and come back south on the downtown express track going back to Grand Street.
Maybe that's what he meant by trains passing.
No, I meant what I said and I said what I meant* - they pass each other at W.4 St. Train 1 leaves Grand St on 3 Track (SB Exp), stops at B/L on 3 Track, crosses over to 4 Track (NB Exp), stop at W.4 and discharges. While Train 1 empties and goes into the relay, Train 2 leaves W.4 on 3 Track going to Grand St. Train 1 now stops at W4 on the southbound and waits for Train 2 to come back north and get out of the way.
* Next line and source of quote?
The Q is a Broadway route (it always was) until the south side of the bridge was closed. I am doubtful that Q trains will see service there at Grand St. anymore with the V as the 4th 6th Ave. route. Q's will and I am sure will operate to Queens as a suppliment to the R via Broadway and 63rd st. B and D will return.
> Q's will and I am sure will operate to Queens as a suppliment to the R via Broadway and 63rd st.
I doubt that.
- Lyle Goldman
Q's will and I am sure will operate to Queens as a suppliment to the R via Broadway and 63rd st. B and D will return.
No, they won't. No Q service beyond 57th St. will exist until the "stubway" is built. The Q/Broadway tracks on 63rd. St. are not designed to serve Queens, and they won't in any capacity.
The Q/Broadway tracks on 63rd. St. are not designed to serve Queens
Well, the tracks actually are connected, but I doubt they'll get used.
What this line also does is running very mad slooowwwwwwwww!
You know, since the Grand Street Shuttle runs along the Sixth Avenue Line, shouldn't it have an orange S sign, rather than a gray one?
- Lyle Goldman
Probably, but I believe the problem is that the orange S was just used right up until the introduction of the V as a "6th Ave. Shuttle" from (if I remember correctly) 34th St. to 2nd Ave.
The grey S for the Grand St. Shuttle was also used during this time. (I guess this means that one could have transfered at Broadway-Lafayette from the S to the S!)
So, after the V was introduced, they just kept the Grand St. Shuttle as the grey S, rather than cause confusion by changing it to the orange S, a symbol which until recently had signified a different route.
Ferdinand Cesarano
The orange S ran from Broadway Lafeyette up to 21st Street-Queensbridge, basically a mini version of the old Orange Q
I should have added, it ran local like the current V
The cars don't even use the grey "S" bullet. They simply say "Shuttle" on each end, and the LCD signs say the same thing.
You know, since the Grand Street Shuttle runs along the Sixth Avenue Line, shouldn't it have an orange S sign, rather than a gray one?
No. It doesn't run along 6th Av in midtown - roughly defined as 14th to 53rd Sts.
Don't some of the trains still have an Orange S from the last time the MB was closed and they ran the S from 57th to Grand street.
"No. It doesn't run along 6th Av in midtown - roughly defined as 14th to 53rd Sts."
Your point makes sense, but 14th St is NOT midtown. Midtown is roughly 30th or 33rd St to 60th St.
The trunk line colors are determined based on the main street of travel south of 50th Street. This way, the J, L, and M can be included.
But the J, L, and M are EXCEPTIONS. A train which went from 6th Av north of W4 St to 6th Av south of W4 St would be Orange. A train which went from 8th Av to Houston St would be Blue. At least that's what I've been told.
That is correct. If the K from 168th to Rockaway Parkway were to ever come into existance, it would be orange, too.
I thought a train coming from 8th avenue, through W4th, through Chrystie to Essex over the Willy B would be blue. However a train coming down 6th Avenue through W4th to Essex to Willy B would be orange. Why would they all be orange just because it runs on the 6th Ave line between W4 and Broadway-Lafayette?
For example, if the C was extended to Jamaica Center via 8th Ave to W4, then to the J line, I believe it would remain blue, whereas lets say the V via the J line to JC would be orange. (However if the C took the route that the B and D take, turning after 59th, it would become orange)
Just when the North side of the Manny B (Manhattan Bridge) closed for repairs...it's going to be going until 2004 when the Ave of Americas trains can finally return to their rightful Brooklyn routes.
From what I heard, the service on the Grand Street Shuttle bites ass (a.k.a. stinks like a fart mixed with fish guts)
-J
It basically smells like Chinatown, but nowadays, they're using a lot of bleach to clean the cars, so it's more of a strong bleach with a faint fish smell
"when the Ave of Americas trains can finally return to their rightful Brooklyn routes."
HaHaHahahahaaa....
The only *rightful* Sixth Avenue route into Brooklyn, would be the (D) and is would run on the CULVER LINE!Elias
The only *rightful* Sixth Avenue route into Brooklyn, would be the (D) and is would run on the CULVER LINE!
Nah... it'd terminate at Church Avenue! Hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa....
> The only *rightful* Sixth Avenue route into Brooklyn, would be the (D)
> and is would run on the CULVER LINE!
How do you figure that?
- Lyle Goldman
Take a look at the 1959 Route Chart on this site. The D trains go to Coney Island; the F trains terminate at 34th St or 2nd Ave.
See http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1959_d.gif
Yeah, but how is that more "rightful" than last year's routes?
- Lyle Goldman
Why? The F (1967-present) has run on the Culver line for more than twice the amount of time the D (1954-1967) did.
That's all I'm saying!
- Lyle Goldman
OK, the big buzz down here is the sighting of one "found-in-Europe-only" Barnacle goose. How it got here is anybody guess. Bird watchers from up and down the east coast are rushing to the DC area just to catch a quick look this this rare bird that is common in Northern Europe. To a non bird watcher like myself, it would not bother me a bit.
Now let's say a train of R143s shows up on WMATA property for a series of "secret" test, maybe as to find out if NYCT state-of-the-art equipment will work on the MetroRail. For the day-to-day passenger riding on the Metro, they could not care less. To a NYC Subfan, it would mean everyone will be jumping on this site to find out when and where the train are running at.
The common thing here is that are we subfan as nutty as these bird watchers?
Phil Hom
The common thing here is that are we subfan as nutty as these bird watchers?
Not quite. What we are interested in has practical use in modern society, in that (in your hypothetical example) NYC cars being tested in DC may have a significant influence on what will eventually become commonplace there (the next generation of subway cars). The appearance of the Barnacle Goose, while interesting, is not a precursor of things to come. Rather, it is an accident of air currents and will not influence the future of bird populations in the DC area.
But is our obsession with the minutiae of the subway a bit nutty? Probably - but then again, the same has been said about a lot of other obsessions throughout history.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I supposed the best equivalent to that was back in the early 1980s, when the Flxble bus problems forced the MTA to get some of the old WMATA GM Fishbowl Metrobuses and bring them up to New York for emergency use.
They definitely stood out on the regular bus runs, and I suppose if an R-143 somehow snuck down to DC, it would catch a few people's eyes as well -- though mainly, they'd be saying, "Hey where's my (Pick One: Upholstered, seat, Front-facing seat, Carpet, Glass end-car wall, Extra 15-feet of railcar)." Of course, given the crowding Metrorail has now, testing out a car with bench seating to allow more floor space might not be a bad idea.
It would be interesting to see that, I just want to see how far into a tunnel an R143 makes it before a different complaint is heard: The train isn't going anywhere. WMATA cars are a foot shorter than NYC's.
birders tend to take their hobbies to extremes and expenses that advocates of other hobbies perhaps wouldn't. every year, many birders go the westernmost aleution island of attu to see siberian migrants. there is considerable cost and inconvenience involved [know what a honey bucket is?]. i cannot imagine too many subway fanciers willing to travel to moscow [at considerably less expense and inconvenience] to see their subway system. so, yes, i think that birders do go to much greater extremes.
birders would argue that the sighting of a vagrant such as the goose could be evidence of things like climate changes, man's tampering with the environment, atom bomb testing [kidding on this one] etc. a great example is the canada goose: once they were strictly migratory. now, thanks to our creating great habitat in subdivisions and office parks, they stay in many places all year round. just ask anyone who has stepped into their droppings.
Cars 6831-40 entered service the week of January 31, making them the first 6800 series train to operate with passengers.
-Stef
I rode R-32 #3399 on the (E) yesterday to WTC. Heat was coming from underneath the seats and the A/C was blowing cold air.
(Sigh).....the best of both worlds !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hot air from below with a cold layer of air above -- Did it rain inside the car (or is that a better question to ask Todd)?
Hmmmm.... could have caused a thermal zone mid-car, and a possible thunderstorm :-)
I had just put that in car (on the south head-out end) for Friday AM from the pocket at 179th St. It did feel like there was cool air blowing, and I considered shutting off the compressor blower, but as it was supposed to get warmer later in the day, I didn't bother. One sign was stuck on "F", but I didn't see an RCI around, and as it had been left that way before, I figured it would be fixed whenever it returned to the shop. It did confuse a few people at Roosevelt Av.
>>One sign was stuck on "F", but I didn't see an RCI around, and as it had been left that way before,<<
That's the first thing I noticed when entering at West 4th St. Ut was a south motor.
Bill "Newkirk"
Unless there's been some rule change that I don't know about, cutting out all or part of the HVAC system is a violation (not that it doesn't happen all too often). The defect is supposed to be put on the "defect sheet" so Car Equipment can take care of the matter.
Rule 53 (a): Heaters, fans, air conditioning, doors and windows must be set as shown in orders posted at terminals, or as specified by Bulletin, Notice, or Special Instructions.
(b) Side and end route/destination signs, heater, fan and air conditioning switches, doors and windows must all be properly set by Train Crews preparing trains for service and while in route.
The last Bulletin I saw on the subject was from June 2001 and detailed, among other things, the proper way to activate the HVAC system.
David
(b) Side and end route/destination signs, ... must all be properly set by Train Crews preparing trains for service and while in route.
When was the last time a train crew was disciplined for not properly setting the route signs?
I wonder what they did with the train I saw with 3 different readings.
The first four cars were going between Canal and 179th on the E, the next four were going between Canal and 179th on the F, and the last two were going between Canal and Parsons Archer on the E. Now, the bigger question, which signs were correct??? (Yes, I do know the answer)
Another lost train.
It wasn't lost, it was running between Canal and 179. I just can't imagine why not all the signs were set properly and why 4 of the cars even had Fs!
During the holidays, an R40 N train had the inside route letter correct, but the outside had an upside down W. Was it a W or an N? Reminds me of the Mid 80's on the Graffiti depleted R40's then on the Q along the Brighton Line.
It could have been either. An "N" looks the same right side up or upside down, but if it's upside down on the inside of the sign, an upside down "W" will appear on the outside of the train.
David
There were no backwards signs on my train. Everything was lined up properly but 6 of the cars had incorrect signage of some sort.
I would have shut down the floor heat and write it up on the car defect sheet.
I was on an R40M on the M last week that had the same thing. It was Tuesday and so it was warm that day. Is that to keep people from getting too cold or too hot?
I don't know if this question was raised here but, does anyone know when the R-142As will get yellow Pelham stickers under their car numbers ?
I can understand that things are a little shaky on the # 2 & # 5 because not all of the #6400 series cars are running as I was told. At least the R-142As are dedicated to the Pelham and I know that blue stickers under #2 R-142s have something to do with brake modifications.
Stef, Train Dude, Widecab etc. you guys know anything ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The stickers indicate the shops, not the yard. I think they will get stickers when they start using Pelham for servicing, right now they go to E180.
Went up yesterday to the show. It was HUGE !!!! At least 300 vendors.
My buddy and I got there at 9:45 AM and were greeted two minutes later by Thurston and BMTman. There were at least 300 vendors and many exhibits spread over three buildings on the grounds.
Very little in the way of subway and bus material.
Missed Todd Glickman and Bill Wall of Shoreline.
Would go again, just wished it was closer to NYC
I went last year and spent 2 days there. I must say the layouts were the best, and I bought a few brass models I've been looking for.
But I was disappointed also that there weren't any subway and bus models or even some MBTA items. It was a little pricey for some of the models (ex. Bachmann HO Amtrak cars $25, Trainland has them for $10) and a LOT of New Haven, Boston and Maine and Rock Island merchandise.
The Greenberg and G.A.T.S Train Shows are both coming up on the same day 2/16-17 in Philly. At least they have some bargains...and plenty of bus models.
The Warehouse Point trolly folks had a table & were offering $1.00 rides from 3 to 6. A group of 4 of us rode one of their PCC Dallas Cars from Shaker Heights. They even let the guest have a little peddle time (no controller). It was a nice side trip on the way home.
Mr rt__:^)
Just heard from a friend of mine who works at Control Center.
Last week either Tuesday or Wednesday a 4-car set of R-143s, (#8113,14,15,16) in the role of clearence testing, made one trip up and down the Franklin Shuttle. The set was not in revenue service, perhaps they came out the Malbone tunnel to make things interesting.
Oooo I wish I was on the shuttle with a camera that day !
Bill "Newkirk"
Now that the Franklin Shuttle is elegant, it deserves an elegant visitor...
Sounds like someone at Jay street's been playing Ed Yee's BVE route for the Franklin and wanted to try it out for accuracy. :)
>>Sounds like someone at Jay street's been playing Ed Yee's BVE route for the Franklin and wanted to try it out for accuracy. :)<<
Either that or someone was playing blind mans bluff in the motormans cab !
Bill "Newkirk"
Ummm ... can anyone account for BMTman's whereabouts that day? :)
>>Ummm ... can anyone account for BMTman's whereabouts that day? :)<<
Uh....no........hey wait a minute.......you're not saying......no, can't be !
Bill "Newkirk"
Check his garage if any of the cars didn't check back in after the test run. :)
The BMTmobile logged some time this weekend, but not on the Franklin Shuttle....sadly.
Was up in Springfield, Mass at a GIANT model train show....(not much R/T unfortunately).
BMTman
Did you have half a pack of cigarettes and were you wearing sunglasses? Shouldn't have traded in the 300 for a microphone, bub. :)
LOL!!
I will be holding an Other Side of The Tracks ( Click here to visit the other side of the tracks ) field trip this Sunday, Feburary 10th.
Meeting Place: Jay St. (Brooklyn Bound Platform- First Car)
Time: 12 Noon (No expections!)
Itinerary: R38 A train to Far Rockaway. Same train back to Bway-Nassau to Catch a redbird 4 or 5 train to its respective terminus in the Bronx. Multiple photo stops will be made whenever those who attend want to take pictures.
If you have question send me an e-mail: hbeck@nycrail.com
Thanks
-Harry
Been there, done that ... AND it was a great trip.
The trip at the front window going over Jamaica Bay is realy nice & the trip I did with a few friends via a Red Bird into the Bronx on Martin Luther Kings holiday was also great.
So I say join my friend Harry for a grand time !
Mr rt__:^)
Honestly,I think there should be some sub/bustalk collabaration on this, because (I live in ROCKAWAY) just taking a train there& back sucks. I think that we should walk to the FAR ROCK LIRR sta (It's not THAT bad). From there, we can take a FAR ROCK train directly to ATLANTIC ave. E-MAIL me, and tell me your ideas.
Different strokes for different folks ... I like the bus ride on the N33 to Long Beach where you can catch the LIRR back, but Harry is going uptown from Far Rockaway. The trip over Jamaica Bay is good enough to enjoiy it twice ;-)
Mr rt
Thurston's response basically sums up how I feel. I am purely a railfan, riding over Jamaica Bay is always spectacular.
-Harry
There are three buildings being put up bewteen broad channel and the north channel bridge. What is the purpose.
Beside the NYC, SIRT,Boston Blue Line Heavy Rails, LACMTA Blue Line and SF Muni L&N Light Rail Lines. Doesa anyone know where else can you take Rapid Transit to the Beach. Sydney Bondi Line will open to Bondi Beach Next Year, and Melbourne has both Light and Heavy Rail to the Beaches. Hong Kong and Singapore goes to the Sea but no beaches. Chicago Beach is on a Lake, It has to be a Salt Water Beach, Oceans, Inlets, Bays and Seas and Gulfs are allowed. No Fresh water Beaches.
>>> Beside the NYC, SIRT,Boston Blue Line Heavy Rails, LACMTA Blue Line and SF Muni L&N Light Rail Lines. Doesa anyone know where else can you take Rapid Transit to the Beach. <<<
You have to subtract the LACMTA Blue Line from your list. It goes to downtown Long Beach where there is a commercial harbor. There is still quite some way to go by bus till you get to a bathing beach.
Tom
The LACMTA Green line goes to El Segundo after the airport -- not sure quite how near the beach the station is, but El Segundo is on the coast.
It ends 2/2 miles from the beach, does not even get to Sepulvada/PCH. Blue Line is 1 1/2 blocks from the Beach
I believe Rome commuter rail goes to the beach at Ostia.
That is a Commutter Rail, Just Like the run from London to Brighton, I am asking about a city/County Transit Line
You confused me because you mentioned Melbourne heavy rail. That is not a subway -- Melbourne has no proper subway, just commuter rail and trams.
Melbourne does have local subway rail line, especially the one that just goes around in a loop. I rode it 2 years ago, and the longest line only goes 30 miles on the bay line
What beach does SIRT access? Years ago it went to South Beach, but no more.
The beach in the vicinity of "Atlantic" and "Nassau" as well as Tot'n'ville. The beach, IIRC--and my best friend that lives in Prince's Bay may be able to correkt me if I'm wrong--is to the EAST end of the island.
Stuart, Rline86 and SIRTEltingvilleMan
The LIRR goes to Montauk.
The Tyne & Wear Metro in Newcastle (England) goes to Whitley Bay, Newcastle's seaside suburb. Mind you, on England's northeast coast it's a pretty cold place for swimming.... But the North Sea is salt water all right.
Still is a Beach on Salt water, and you could go there
Catania Sicily Ferrovia Circumetnea Metro line emerges from a tunnel to ride on top of a seawall along a beach. See www.metropla.net/ for further details.
I just wanted to post some Photos here. A few were night shots taken at Princeton Jct. New Jersey.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/NASSAU-N.jpg
Here is a night shot of the former PRR NASSAU tower.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/NASSAU-N-2.jpg
Here is NASSAU from another angle.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/PJ&B-Dink.jpg
Here is a magrinal shot of the dink. The lack of a tripod made taking these shots difficult.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/NH85.jpg
A patriotic Amtrak AEM-7 #902 in October.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/NH87.jpg
An Amtrak AECLA Express at New Haven, making just another station stop.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/AUSTIN-1.jpg
SEPTA's AUSTIN Tower at Chesnut Hill West. Taken during Dec. Subtalk field trip.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/AUSTIN-2.jpg
Another view of Austin.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/SEPTA_336-CHW.jpg
SEPTA Silverliner IV #336 at Chesnut Hill West terminal.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/SEPTA_112.jpg
SEPTA Silverliner IV #112 entering the Chesnut Hill East terminal.
Cool
How did you get access to the low level platform at PJ?
Its a nice shot though.
Shouldn't that MU have its light on? Its at night.
It wasn't the lo-level platform. I just went down to one of the parking areas that directly bordered the RoW on the north side of the station. The MU is laying over as the engineer changes ends for the return trip back to Princetown. My camera was on top of one of the yellow concrete posts that seperated the parking lot from the RoW.
Nice shots, Mike. The last two look vaguely familiar.
Mike
Bob
Mike
Bob
today i happened across some o' the economic forum protesters downtown, and followed them up past union sq., going up park.
Then, rather oddly, the group threw the police following them a loop and got on the uptown 6 at 23rd! there were only perhaps 20 of them, with at least 50 cops. half the cops followed, half stayed upstairs.
The group dwindled a bit heading north, and everyone was delayed at 59th street for reasons a bit beyond most. Most of the riot cops got off, and were exchanged for what looked like a smaller group of normal transit cops. The group got out at 77th.
I'll post a link with Photos and a wee little writeup of all this tomorrow.
...and i thought it'd be a dull day.
Was the New Utrecht Avenue station ever a trolley terminal? There are a couple of trolley poles in front of the station, and the station is built on an angle that would allow trolley cars to stop directly in front of the building.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin....I believe the 16th Ave. carline terminated there at one time, but the Cortelyou Rd. trolleybus line definitely ended its run at this location until Oct.31, 1956. If I'm not mistaken, there was also a minor maintenance facility here for the coaches as the line was not physically connected to the rest of the TB system in Brooklyn.
Carl M.
The B-23 bus now handles what was once that Court-tell-you *lol* TB route. :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Those trolley poles were last used by the Cortelyou Road trolley bus, first one in Brooklyn, and the first to go, the same day as the last trolley cars.
In addition to the trolley coach loop, there was a little maintenance pit to do light repair on the coaches.
The Cortelyou replaced the 16th Avenue car line, so this same location may have been used for the trolley cars.
The last electric bus in Brooklyn was in July 1960 on Routes
B-47 Tompkins Avenue
B-48 Lorimer Street
B-57 Flushing Ave
B-62 Graham Ave
B-65 Bergen Street
The B-45 St Johns Place was converted to buses in 1945
The B-23 and the last trolley routes in Brooklyn B-50 and B-68 did indeed end service on the same day
Thank You
The B-45 St Johns Place was converted to buses in 1945
No, I think it lasted until 1958 or 1959. It wasn't even converted from streetcar to bus to trolley bus until after WWII.
The B68 Coney Island Ave. ended trolley service on Nov 30, 1955, replaced with the bus that still uses that number. The last two trolleys in Brooklyn, which last ran on Oct 31, 1956, were the B50 McDonald Ave. (not replaced by bus) and the B35 Church Ave. (replaced of course with the bus that still uses that number).
The part of the McDonald Avenue line north of the 16th Avenue Loop was replaced by an extension of B69 Vanderbilt. Before it was split, McDonald-Vanderbilt was a through route.
So was the Coney Island Ave-Smith St Line once one Route
Sorry my error The B-45 was converted to buses in 1959
Thank You
There may have been an accident with the Downeaster today. The MBTA Web site transit update page has the following notice about commuter rail service:
"Haverhill train (2216) 15mins delay due to Amtrek train accident shuttel bus from lawrence inbounding North station." (Their spelling!)
The Downeaster runs on the Haverhill line inbound to North Station.
Yes, I've heard whisperings of this. I heard a person was struck by the Downeaster.
It was in this morning's Boston Globe. A "12-9" near Lawrence, MA, which held up the train for two hours.
I'm coming to New York City to pick up some items I recently purchased (wish I could buy an R33 "Bird", but, oh well). How is taxi service at Westchester Square station in the Bronx)
Do the words 'slim' and 'none' mean anything to you?
Thank You
There are a few buses, though. You may want to check out here to see which buses run there. Personally, I have never paid for a taxi in my life. Mass transit buff 'til death. If you really want a cab, call 718-733-1111. That's Kiss cab service. They're pretty good. Many people I know take them, and they come quickly. Best of .uck.
The AP story on Bob Diamond's Brooklyn Trolley has been published on CNN.com, complete with photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It also made the Sunday Advance here in Staten Island.
I thought it was cable cars that were associated with San Francisco, not streetcars. That picture window PCC looks very nice too.
-Robert King
They have trolleys (LRV) in San Fran as well as the cable car. Heck NYC and Washington DC had cable car system.
So did a host of other cities. Denver and Chicago had cable cars at one time, and Seattle had them as late as 1940, IIRC.
Wasn't there a thread here a few months ago that claimed that a barge smashed into the pier where these trolleys were and they were destroyed and the whole project was called off? I thought it sounded really odd at the time... Does anyone recall this?
Yeah, that's old news. The trolleys were not destroyed, just the pier. The latest news is that NYC DOT is threatening to drop Bob's funding because of failure to pony up $90,000. You've been off the board a while?
The two cars he has 100% restored are "Stuck" in his warehouse (Carhouse?) because the tracks and overhead leading to/from it were damaged when the tug hit it.
Ok, thanks for the update. I'm glad this project wasn't totally destroyed by the tug.
No, I've been here, just must have missed the updates to that barge story.
Shame that the DoT has to hand over more red tape to this stellar cause!
I sent a letter to Marky Markowitz, new prez of Brooklyn, urging him to push the powers that be for the releasing of funds for this VERY worthwhile project. Markowitz already supports the venture, and hopefully more fuel to this trolley fire will ignite the spark of the money for this project.
The AP story on Bob Diamond's Brooklyn Trolley has been published on CNN.com, complete with photos.
Good! That's more bad publicity for the DOT, and hopefully will embarass it into backing down from its ridiculous stand.
And the rumors are flying...
N line to become Midnight OPTO to 36 St; W to run to Astoria
N to become Midnight and Weekend OPTO to Pacific; W to run to Astoria.
Anybody hear any others?
Sure ... why the "N" not? Cabs removed and replaced by buttons. "Press desired station - doors will close automatically." :)
When will this happen? When the W becomes the only train to CI?
Fred, as I said before, I am only in favor of this as long as the W is the only train there, once the N goes back, the B/W should be cut back again.
Why should the "B" or "W" be cut back when the West End sees more riders than the "N"?
I have always wondered which got more riders and was going to ask that in a separate thread. I have always been one to believe the spur with the most passengers should always be the one that has thru service. If West End does have more than Sea Beach, then the N needs to be the one cut back (sorry Fred, even though SB is far better for railfanning than WE, we aren't the only people on the subway). It just seems since the beginning of time, the West End has been cut back, it would be logical to assume it had fewer passengers.
I used to live next to the West End, and even *I* liked the #4 BMT much better. However, during the last 20-30 years, the Borough Park town of Brooklyn has seen a TREMENDOUS population explosion, mostly due to vast numbers of Bobover Chasidim populating the area. This is one reason why the Mary, once originally diverted as a 'temporary' measure from the Brighton Line, has remained on the West End for the past 16-17 years.
Slowly, but surely, the number of trains signaled "B" increased from 19 to 21 to 23 to 24 to 26 before the bridge flip. This was West End service, IN ADDITION to Mary service. The only reason why there are 20-21 "W" trains is due to the fact the "W" serves Astoria and the Broadway BMT as well as the "N", as well as the extra service on the Broadway BMT.
I heard nothing of the kind, but if it's true, this is due either to the Stillwell cutback, or because the West End sees more passengers than the Sea Beach, according to the TA's own figures.
Well since the W is at some point going to become the only train serving Coney Island, it would make sense for it to run to Manhattan all the time. In fact many of us were wondering what was going to happen with service to Manhattan when the W becomes the only train to serve Stillwell. I guess this could be what happens. But if so, the W has to run local through the Montague Tunnel and the weekaday N should return to Manhattan Bridge and run express.
I think I could live with that.
Yes, I heard that too. I hear so many rumors over the course of time, I simply don't want to report them since most turn out to be false. The reasoning behind this one is while the N terminates at 86th St., the TA wants to make the W as the primary 24/7 Astoria to CI service. In effect, swapping the current N & W service plans.
Does that also mean that the W is going become local and the N is going to be restored as an express over the bridge. Don't forget, the late night R doesn't run past 36th Street. so if the W runs over the bridge at night, what's going to make all the 4th Avenue and Broadway local stops when the R is not in service?
We'll see what happens when the work programs and timetables come out. All the "i"'s will be dotted and all the "t"'s will be crossed.
I would imagine that when the N is running to 36th or Pacific, the W would go local via tunnel to replace the N. The bigger question is this: when the N is running to Astoria, will they revert to the way they are today or will the W be all local via Montague 24/7? If that part is swapped, the West End passengers with the higher ridership will scream bloody murder while the Sea Beachers will be estatic! Think of it: a war over trackage rights between the Sea Beachers and West Enders!
>>>Think of it: a war over trackage rights between the Sea Beachers and West Enders! <<<
Sound like something that's been going on around here for quite some time/ 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If they run the W local via Montague 24/7, it makes for much simpler operations and much less confusion. Service should be as consistent as possible. If the W is going to run local, it should always run local because if people who board at Broadway and 4th Avenue local stations on weekdays see W, they may expect to get one. Riders shouldn't have to play guessing games as to whether or not a train is running local or express, and let's hope they won't have to in this case.
If they make the W run local on 4th Ave as well, then the M should return to being express on 4th Avenue. This way, there will be extra cars to service 4th Ave local, however, the W is already a sardine can by 36th. Either way, if a W or M runs express, the switch north of Pacific will be needed so that one can stop at Dekalb and continue to Montague.
Hey N Train, notice the Brighton boys have been giving us a hard time. Come off the sidelines and get into it. Don't worry, they're a bunch of saps who will run to the hills when he huff and puff.
Heh. I'll taunt you a second time then ... remember that the hills are up in da Bronx ... on the mainland. Rude awakening number two, the main line in the Bronx, the D, is the BRIGHTON Express. Or was at least. We haven't forgotten our heritage. No domesticar ... and all that. We'll see your puny little shuttle and raise you a four tracker. :)
"the main line in the Bronx, the D, is the BRIGHTON Express. Or was at least. We haven't forgotten our heritage"
Oh horsefeathers!
The D, as everyone knows, belongs on the CULVER LINE!
That is the way it was in the beginning (of IND service to coney Island), and so it should be again and also forever more!
Elias
Yeah, but it irks the southern division. Heh. My own attachment is that's the line I worked ...
That's okay. You're welcome aboard. The original Brighton Express, the Q, has its partner as the Brighton-Concourse, the D. And I'm proud that the Brighton invaded the Bronx. And if Fred doesn't like it, that's just too bad. He bawls that his line has been extended to Queens. He'd better watch out that it doesn't get cutback and become a shuttle.
Already been snipped on one end, easy to take out on the other and replace it with redbirds doing the shuttle thang. And I know precisely which relay cabinet to disconnect. :)
You mean like this?:
Redbirds on the Sea Beach Shuttle
Set the scrollamount to "2" and you might have it down. :)
Nah, the Redbirds aren't THAT slow.:-)
Nope ... on the SeaBiscuit, they'd assume the position. "scrollamount=1" ... it ain't the TRAINS that make it slow, it's the run ... can't wrap it if you gotta look out for Chevies on the tracks. :)
Let's see:
Redbirds on the Sea Beach Shuttle
You ain't lying!:-)
Now that's about the speed of the Slow Beach.
There's those cool graphics again!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the coolest s***, how do you do that?
Go to the "View" pulldown menu and click on "Source". The codes are all there. You can cut and paste to Notepad or Wordpad and print it out for future reference.
Forget the message, I love the presentation!!!!!!!!
Actually, the Brighton-Concourse is the manifestation of what the BMT would have done on its own were it not for cheap political hacks that prevented it from doing so in the 1920s.
The five cent fare was the real killer, but I still think the BMT wouldn't have bothered going to the Bronx. At least the city finally built them their line. :)
It was planned to go as far as 155th/8th. Just a jump away!
That's Manhattan ... like I said, the BMT would have never come to the Bronx unless the IND *made* them do it in 1967. :)
And even our Brighton locals have been dustin' your Slow Beach under Broadway for the longest time.
Hey, that's only because the Q and the W are express. Let's kick the W out of the MTA, throw Q onto local, and shove the N as express. Let's see how your "Brighton locals" will contend with our R32s...
I merely stated the hard facts. Send your wish list to the MTA. I'm sure they'll give your wishes the respect they deserve.
If the W,N and M runs express to Pacific and the W and M has to go through the Montague tunnel, wouldn't that cause a massive delay on whatever uses that line? I've rode that line before and the W can barely keep up with the Q, N and R as it is. So running the W local would be suicide unless were talking about switching N, Q and R service also. Long to short a West end express/Bway local W = delays.
>>RUMOR - OPTO on the Sea Beach<<
Sea Beach Fred is gonna get his pepperoni in an uproar when he hears this !
Bill "Newkirk"
Ssssssshhhh, he'll wake the San Andreas with this bombshell, and I want no problems next month when I fly out to the left coast!
You can imagine what is going through my mind right about now. I don't like hearing crap like this. I hope these are just that, rumors. But where there's smoke there is fire and I am a little bit worried about this. Needless to say, I'm also good and PO'd.
No Comment, and Fred Love s his Sea Food especially Calamarri over beef or pork
I hear you! But I am told that effective 9/8/02 (after the summer tourist season), the Stillwell rehab will be in full force. The only line going to Stillwell will be the West End Line. Because of that, the TA does not want the only line to Stillwell being a Pacific St. shuttle on the weekends and a 36th St. OPTO shuttle on the midnites. Hence, a complete 24/7 service pattern swap between the N & W.
Then my question Bill is what will be the route of the N train? Does it even run on the Sea Beach tracks or is it confined to Astoria and Manhattan?
The N will keep it's current route via the Sea Beach line. Only the service pattern will be changed.
Equipment will also need to be considered...OPTO via R68's.
Fred, I would have thought that you would be happy about all this, as it might mean that the N will be restored via bridge and the W going via tunnel. I doubt that the West Enders would stand for that, though.
Hey Bill:
Dont you, Zman, and the Road Dogg start picking next week? How will this affect the work programs and the duration of the upcoming pick?
Bill picks on the first day on Monday. Me and the Dogg will have to wait a while.
In regards to the work programs, it'll be anybody's guess. That's up to Operations & Planning.
The M line schedule as far as the passengers are concerned is exactly the same for the new pick (rumored to be implimented 5/12/02) starting Monday, but the employee work programs have been changed. The AM one trippers out of CIYD are no more. They still put in and lay up a train at CIYD after doing their trip, but now they will have to deadhead to either Met or 9th Ave and do another half trip. On the PM tour Met lost 2 jobs and the south end of the line picked them up. We will have just 8 jobs out of Met on the PM, we haven't had this few since we went down the Brighton line! The job I have now is exactly the same for the new pick except for a different number. Some other sucker can have it and do 1 trip to Ninth Ave. and 2 trips to Bay Pkwy. after lunch. The pay is great, but it is too much road time. It looks like I'll take a PM job on the J without those skip stops and has some nice time before the last trip. There are only 58 B division t/o's ahead of me, while I can pick better, I am a bit limited due to family obligations. While PM switching at ENYD pays a bit more and gets me off the road, that place is a mad house after the PM rush. I'd be better off on the road!
It's about time that you got off that blasted M line. When I get my VR bids, the first thing I do is cross out all of the M jobs.
Too bad your schedule wasn't a little more flexible. That super super late AM job on the F out of 179 pays about 10:23. At least on the J, you'll have a sweet job paying about 9:45.
The A line was drastically changed too. All trip and a halfs are gone, the PM Showcases all get serviced by AM crews, and they may have added a job from 207Y with the deuce to Lefferts. Two putins out of 207Y are cancelled. On the bright side, file number 00002 retired tonight.
>>>...the PM Showcases...<<<
What's a "PM Showcase" ?
Peace,
ANDEE
One of the lucky 5 Rockaway Park trains they get that replaced the C service years ago. I'm sorely going to miss them.
Nice jpg. I looked on the site for others but found this:
I was wondering why file #2 took 10 weeks vacation straight up with the end of 2001 and the beginning of 2002. Could you imagine that check on advance pay? Wow.
Clocking out of the system and piping off the ship is amusing. Lag pay for HOW many weeks now? Vacation accruals, banked sick leave, yada yada ... when I left the state, the checks kept coming for almost four months at full tilt. I piped off with maximum banking. If #2 took 10 weeks off, you can tell this is someone who had more than a snootful and wanted out in the worst way. Heh.
He is a real nice guy and was working a penalty job the last year to boost the pension. With ten weeks and the pick working the way it did he could have taken some totally killer job for those last 10 weeks.
I'm sure he was ... and I'll bet that the 10 weeks thing was because he was hitting his annual anniversary date and didn't want to lose the excess ... annuals have a nasty habit of causing emergency vacations under the "use it or lose it" rule. :)
Actually, he collected a big Sick Leave Bonus, he had just over 70% and if he took any sick days, he would have dropped down to the 50% leave bonus, a significant drop. The reason he returned to work for one week after his 10 weeks vacation is that his vacation reverts to terminal leave, and he would lose the penalty portion of his vacation pay. Working one day in the new year eliminates that. He worked the entire week so the TA wouldn't fill in the rest of the workweek with AVAs, an 8 hour allowance too. Not bad for 38 years OTJ.
Sounds like he knew how to reset the motor breakers on his career then. GOOD FOR HIM! There are SO many gotchas built in, it's almost like playing looto ... glad to hear he got out intact ... that guy's seen more sheet than anyone should be allowed to without an endowment. He's obviously seen what I saw when I played there and everything in between. :)
Will they be swapping bridge and tunnel as well? Something has to run via Montauge at night.
That's right! Montague, Broadway Local and lower Manhattan.
Hell, maybe it'll be the R!
When was the last time the West End Line had all night service into Manhattan, excluding GOs and other disruptions?
If this is the case, could this be the first time both the N and R run part time?
-Stef
IIRC B trains ran 24/7 as late as 1977.
IIRC B trains ran 24/7 as late as 1977. To Manhattan, that is.
Never Happen , Plain and simple the N will be full time for one reason its Fleet has to many R 32' and 40's.One other reason is The Sea Beach has had a population Boom alond 8th ave and Fort Hamilton Parkway.Rush hours might not notice the difference but off hours does,because Most of the boom is from Minority groups and usually at around 1130 till 130 at night most N's are standing room only till 8th ave.
Never say never. In regards to the equipment, that can be changed overnight. You would simply see 32's and 40's on the W in addition to the 68/68A's currently there. Both lines are in the Southern Division, so that's not an obstacle.
Also in regards to line rumors, from the ones that I have heard over the years, 9 out of 10 become reality.
You'd have to have more 68's on the N, though. For this new plan to work, the W would have to run local through the Montague Tunnel, because the both the N and R would not be running at night, and weekend Broadway local service would be cut in half, if the W doesn't run local on weekends.
While they're at it, why not also make the late-night R OPTO?
Without a doubt, the W would be rerouted via the Montague St Tunnel in the event that the rumor were to be implemented. Also, you could bet that more 68's would be on the N (most likely 68A's) to offset the loss of 32's and 40's to the W.
>>>>>>While they're at it, why not also make the late-night R OPTO?
True, but the less there is of OPTO, the better.
Why would they need more 68s on the N? Are they the only cars that can perform OPTO?
You need transverse cabs for OPTO. In the South, that honor goes to the 68/68A cars. why everyone seems to think you would need a shift in car assignments, I don't know. The W OPTO uses four 4 car sets, ie two full-length trains split in half. I see no reason, on the midnights, why the N would need more than this.
That's true for midnights, but if they're going to work the N OPTO shuttle on the weekends, they'll need 3 or 4 additional trains.
Yes, out of all the cars that are based in Coney Island Yard (R32's, R40 Slants and R68/68A's) they are the only ones that have transverse cabs. R46's, which visit Stillwell on every F train, won't be used because the TA is not about to transfer any R46's out of Jamaica Yard.
Aw crap... this might make me walk to the West End on weekends.
Doesn't make a difference to me.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
This is bad news. But the late night proposal is how the N used to run during late nights in the '80s. The N ran in shuttle service from 36th to Stillwell, as did the B (B via West End, N via Sea Beach, of course). The RR ran 24/7 at that time.
The only saving grace for this proposal would be if the weekday N was restored over the Manhattan Bridge and running express in both Brooklyn and Manhattan. Other wise, the TA is really adding insult to injury here.
Especially to the N's paternal father--See Beach Freddo
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yes sir, I am taking this all in and not feeling very pleased with the rumors I am hearing.
In fact, very (q)ueasy indeed, huh? :(
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm not takin this too well either Fred. Especially after how the 4 has been going downhill lately.
I'd also hate to see the N remain relegated to local-via-tunnel service.
OPTO is the kiss of death (you wake up with a horse's head on the adjacent pillow) ... il muerte ... bottom line, if the N goes OPTO, OPTO is just NOT DONE on mainline. It'd be luck to be turned at the first interlock and sent back - OPTO's do not do bridge or tunnel ... they never get NEAR DeKalb, the mighty subway DNS server. :)
As a former Brighton/Concourse opertor, we know that DeKalb *is* a "root server" of chuchus ... NO OPTO shall pass ... heh.
Speaking of OPTO, there is a marker near the south end of the southbound E/C platform at Spring St that says 4/6/8/OPTO.
Has the C ever run OPTO?
There was a plan in place to run the C OPTO during the weekends between 168 St and WTC. The weekend extension to Euclid Av killed that idea.
I guess was Selkirk means is that my Sea Beach could be in a lot of trouble. At least I think that's what he means. Ever get the idea this Selkirk guy is a strange cat?
... and if the Sea Beach is in trouble, so is the N train... those bas*ards...
Nah, Unca Selkirk had done a 26 hour shift and had gotten a bit stupid from lack of sleep. Bottom line is if the N were to go OPTO, it would not be running the main line in all likelihood and would have become a modern equivalant of the Culver shuttle, running only on its own line and parking on the main line only for transfers, then go back. I couldn't see OPTO running up and down a main line ...
I noticed you wrote "Brighton/Concourse" and not the other way around. As you are a Bronx man, I must say you are a classy guy. You know the Brighton is the best. If it was the C line, I'm sure you would have written "Concourse/Fulton".
As much as I'd love to take credit for "claayaass" that's what the line was called - "Brighton/Concourse" ... maybe it was just because I started my day out of Coney on both half shifts. Though it was also my home line on the 205th St end, I started work at BB ... but aside from the occasional crappy weather day, it was a nice run. I felt sorry for my counterparts on the CC and all those stops ... and the CC was "8th avenue/Concourse" to us. The "C" came later. I had blown town by then.
The southern routing is listed before the northern terminus.. that's cute!]
N Bwy
Well, the BMT favored the southern terminus in its day. In fact, the R-1s which ran on the Sea Beach in 1931 had the southern terminus displayed on the upper destination curtain of their side sign boxes and the northern terminus on the lower curtain.
Did the Triplexes follow this practice?
I really feel sorry for you guys: Go N Train and #4 Sea Beach Fred. But it still doesn't make a difference to me.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Not now, but since the N and W both service Astoria, you never what'll happen up there if changes are made down here...
I just hope they don't remove the W.. because the service is so much better than before.
N BWY
The only saving grace for this proposal would be if the weekday N was restored over the Manhattan Bridge and running express in both Brooklyn and Manhattan. Other wise, the TA is really adding insult to injury here.
I don't see how that would save it.
It would be express, but because it would be running in Manhattan and Queens only during weekdays, it's not much of saving grace.
Ignorant question: What is OPTO and why is it so bad?
OPTO is an acronym for One Person Train Operation. In other words, the Train Operator does all the work and there is no Conductor on board.
IF they go to OPTO on the Sea Beach late at night, how many cars will be operated on the train.
#3 West End Jeff
Most probably a combination of 4 (AND ONLY FOUR) R(omeo)-68's
Stuart, RLine86Man
An OPTO train can never be more than 4 cars long. And there is a restriction stating that 2 car trains are not permitted on main line tracks with the one exception in place between Franklin Av and Prospect Pk on the Franklin Shuttle. Do the math, and there's your answer.
If two car trains are not permitted on mainline tracks, how do they run the revenue collector?
That's what their rule says in the rule book. If I were to take out 2 R32's on the mainline, I'd be toasted until golden brown. The revenue collector is given an exemption for some reason. Maybe because there are jumper cables on board?
Wow ... yeah ... I can see a motorman climbing down, clipping onto a shoe, reaching over and grabbing a clip on 3rd rail, climbing back up, pushing ahead a few feet, then dropping back down and collecting the wire. Uh, yeah. :)
The actual rule states that the train cannot be more than 300 feet in length. That does equal 4 cars in the IND/BMT, but in the IRT up to 5 cars can be used.
If you have 60' 6" cars can they run 5 car trains even though it would be an insignificant 2 1/2' over length.
#3 West End Jeff
You would have to switch to the express track at 59 and 36 to use those cars. Seem like too much fuss.
Why is that? Aren't the stop markers in the same spot anyway?
You still haven't noticed the problem with OPTO and non tranverse cabs?
How do you open and close the left side of the train?
Oh, that... I thought there was some other problem...
Why, you DUMP, step outta da cab, toss open the stormy, unlock the other cab, insert key, open, announce, close, then walk back and recharge. Shouldn't add much more than five minutes per stop to the schedule. :)
FIVE MINUTES?! WADDYA OUTTAYERMIND?!?!!! ROAR!!!!!!!1 :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Maybe that's why "small cabs" aren't used for OPTO. I know it wouldn't be prudent to leave a charged up cab unoccupied, especially these days just to change sides ... don't blame me though, OPTO wasn't my idea. :)
I know it wasn't....it was some idiota at 347 Madison Ave that did that...trying to save some money...hmph...what about saving passengers lives sometimes........
Stuart, RLine86Man
Our esteemed "house of representatives" have ordered up "cost/beneift studies for the value of human life" ... bad news is, if you're unborn, you're covered ... once you're born, you're on your own. But seriously, the money saved clearly outweighs the lives at peril. After all, enablers kinda contradict the OPTO theory but who am I to point at the emperor's robes?
We're talking about OPTO here. In the B division, there are currently no 60 foot cars capable of working in OPTO service until more 143's come into passenger service.
Would they be able to set up any R-32s for OPTO though they may have to arrange some of the cars in to 5 car sets rather than married pairs.
#3 West End Jeff
That can't be done. R32's have narrow cabs and staggered side doors. OPTO cars need transverse cabs and the cost of retrofitting R32's with full-width cabs would be prohibitive. And it wouldn't be worth it, when they have perfectly good R68's already with transverse cabs that can be used.
Hi
also, currently, the N is the only train serving these two stations at night (Manhattan bound). The R shuttle uses the express tracks to 36th Street where it turns around, as does the W.
Technically, they can run the N&R shuttles local, then switch to the express tracks to turn around, however, interfering with the W.
In the 1950's when I still lived in the city we pronounced Kosciusko as kos-key-oz-ko, and Van Wyck as van-wike.
In the case of Kosciusko, the conductors on the then new R-16's on the 15 Line seemed to pronounce it the same way on their new PA systems.
I spoke to an old friend about Van Wyck. He lived 68 of his 78 years in Brooklyn or Queens. He also pronounced it van-wike, and was surprised to hear that he had been wrong all of this time.
Pronounciation of difficult words has been known to change over a period of years. I don't think that makes the current pronounciation more correct or incorrect than the pronounciation of 50 years ago. It is just a matter of acceptance.
No one is going to pronounce either of those names according to their correct Polish or Dutch pronunciation (I believe more-or-less "Koshusko" and "Fahn Veek"), so who's to say what's a "wrong" or "right" New York mangling of the names anyway?
Having attended JHS 217 Queens - that's Van Wyck Junior High School - in the early 1960s, I can tell you it was ALWAYS pronounced "van-wike" back then.
New York has mangled so many ethnic names over the years that it's almost standard practice to NOT do it as in the original.
Anyone heard of these pronumciations of the following streets:
Nostrand Av--(NO-strind or NAW-strind), Brooklyn
Classon Av--(CLAW-sen), Brooklyn
Buhre Av--(BYOOR or BYUR-re), The Bronx
Throop Av--(THROP), Brooklyn
Wyckoff Av--(WICK-koff or WY-koff), Brooklyn
If anyone can think of anymore or have the correct, or close to correct pronunciations to these street names, it would be appreciated.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page...Cruising the Northeast Fare-Free!
I've always said NO-STRAND, and always been told by my friends to say "NO-strind"
Chicago has a Goethe St. which I've heard lots of taxi drivers pronounce Go-EE-thee. There's also a Mozart St., which most Chicagoans pronounce with an English 'z' sound rather than the German 'tz'.
If you go downstate, there's the town of Cairo, which sounds more like Karo syrup than its namesake on the Nile, and Marsailles, Everett Dirksen's hometown, which is pronounced mar-SAILS.
-- Ed Sachs
in prior years "gatey" and its neighbor sky lur (Schiller)
For a musician (or anyone, for that matter) to pronounce "Mozart" any way other than with the "ts" would be sacrilege. I've seen that street you're referring to in Chicago.
My sister once pronounced Union Ave. "Onion" as we were driving along Marquette Rd. to State St. and the Skyway entrance.
Here in Buffalo, which has a large Polish population, it's pronounced Kos-CHEW-sko.
We have a street here named Knoche---pronounced Ka-NO-key.
We also have a lot of small towns and villages with strange pronunciations:
Madrid - (MAD-rid)
Versailles - (Ver-SALES)
Java - (JAY-va)
The pronunciation is correct, but how do they spell it in
Buffalo. Is is Kosciusko or Kosciuszko?
Incredibly, there are no streets or businesses/organizations named for the man, though there is a parade every year down Broadway. There are two individuals in the phone book, and they spell it with the z.
In Monroe County (MUN-roe) about 60 miles east of Buffalo, you have Chili (CHY-lie) and Charlotte (sha-LOTT).
In Greene County, 100 mi N of NYC, you have another Cairo (CAY-ro).
I always said Nos-trand
As many of you know, I call the radio play-by-play for the women's basketball team at the University of San Francisco. We played another West Coast Conference team the other night and I asked their radio man how I should say a particular player's name. Was it one way or the other? He said "use both, it doesn't matter, she's been called both her whole life!". I asked again, and I got the same response. So who knows how to say one name instead of another!
George Devine
San Francisco, CA
>> ...it's almost standard practice to NOT do it as in the original. <<
Indeed. It seems to be primarily a matter of localization. Moreover, they're everywhere...
I had a teacher in 6th grade named Lucretia Cortelyou. And woe was unto any person who dared pronounce her last name any way other than "CORE-dull-you". Yet most --if not all-- of the C/Rs I hear on my daily commute on the Brighton line pronounce the same word "core-TELL-you".
And don't let the residents of Newark (NEW-ARC) Delaware hear you pronounce the name of their town like Newark (NEW-work), NJ.
You get the same hairy-eyeball stare from Greenwich (GREEN-wich) Township, NJ (it's out by Phillipsburg) residents when you pronounce their town like "GREN-itch", as folks in New York and Connecticut are wont to do.
I myself have spent an inordinate amount of my life explaining to people that my last name is pronounced like "GARRY" and not like "guh-RAY"
Carrion...er, I mean "carry on"
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
>> ...the name of their town like Newark (NEW-work), NJ. <<
Oops, I forgot. In addition to the above, some residents of Newark, NJ, monosyllabically intone the name of their own town as "Noork".
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
That was the pron. of a conductor on PATH. He must be a native Noork-er.
That's almost as mangled as the way they say "Nawlins" in New Orleans. That city is pronounced many different ways:
New Or-LEANS, New Orlins, New Or-lee-ans, Nawlins. Don't know which is the REAL pronunciation.
New Or-LEANS, New Orlins, New Or-lee-ans, Nawlins. Don't know which is the REAL pronunciation.
At least it's definitely not New Or-lay-on.
At least it's definitely not New Or-lay-on.
Oh yeah? Go north of Plattsburgh and discover what they call it.
Oh yeah? Go north of Plattsburgh and discover what they call it.
Bloody hell! Next you'll be telling me they make Gamay north of Plattsborough!
Avec poutaine ... oui oui ... they phaart in your general direction, you silly English-speaking types. :)
lol
Then there's BERlin, Connecticut. Not to be confused with the capital of Germany.
Who sez Van Wike is wrong! I say it like that. Most colonial Dutch names in NYC that are spelled that way rhyme with "ike ', e.g., Dyckman Street, Wyckoff Ave.
I've been told by those for whom Polish is their first language
that it is Kos-zhew'-skoh.
As for Van Wyck, I'll try to get a definitive Dutch answer.
Correctamundo on the Polska and "WIKE" is the correct Dutch ... Plenty of Van Wyck's up here in Smallbany and they all say it the same. Don't let the inexperienced dip your wick. :)
You mean, dip your wike.
Only when not doing two toots through it. :)
>>>I've been told by those for whom Polish is their first language
that it is Kos-zhew'-skoh. <<<
I've never been able to figure how the Duke U. coach, whose name I can't spell, gets "Sha-shev-sky' out of a name that begins with Krz.
ww.forgotten-ny.com
I think the "rz" combination is like an "sh". I had a student named Przybysz. My father-in-law, who is Polish, pronounced it "Pshibish".
"Sz" is pronounced "sh" while "cz" becomes "ch". I'm inclined to guess that "rz" would be pronounced "zh", since "zz" is not used. Mind you, I'm not Polish.
>>>As for Van Wyck, I'll try to get a definitive Dutch answer. <<
Probably flat i, as in Van Why-ck, since many Dutch words use the digraph "IJ" for long y; probably Van Wyck was spelled that way originally and may still be in Holland.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've been told by those for whom Polish is their first language
that it is Kos-zhew'-skoh.
No doubt, but I find something appealing about the 1010WINS Traffic & Transit reporters mangling it as "koss-key-YOUSS-ko", as in the (now departed) "traffic is backed up from da koss-key-YOUSS-ko to da TANKS."
lol............
Well, I consulted with a native Dutch speaker. Neither Van Wick
nor Van Wike is anywhere near the correct pronunciation, which
is evidently fahn veck.
Is Sutphin Blvd pronounced with a "T" or is the "T" silent?
I grew up near it and was taught it was a silent "T".
I was also taught that the "T" in "often" was also silent. So which is it. I hear the "T" being pronounced in commercials when the word "often is used, it grates on my ears.
Anyone Please?
avid
Never heard Sutphin pronounced without the "T" during all the years I lived in Queens.
>>> I was also taught that the "T" in "often" was also silent. <<<
That one is like whether the "r" in New York is silent. :-)
Tom
I guess we must look to the English for a guide through their language.
often , old english , oft, ofttimes, knife, sword, knuckles
forecastle fortnight
and they still speak that way.
How come when they sing (the Brits) they don't seem to have much of an accent?
avid
From dictionary.com: often
Usage Note: During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often. In this way the consonant clusters were simplified and made easier to articulate. With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the t in often, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as soften and listen, the t generally remains silent.
(I read this as: "using the t sound in often is wrong, but so is correcting someone about it.")
(d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often
Just makes me realise how inconsistent I am - handsome definitely has a d, handkerchief doesn't, consumption only has a p if it is a nasty disease. Oh and I like the t in chestnut and often!
James, are you in a major metropolitan area? If so, how long? If not, how many changes of locale have you made?
avid
I hadn't realized there were somany lost consonant sounds.
Do you think it was due to the many dialects or mixing of other germanic and celtic words into the language of that time period?
avid
This happened to be at the time of the Great Vowel Shift, when the pronunciation of vowels changed in English. That's why it sounds so different in relation to continental European languages.
My mother has always pronounced the "t" in "Christmas" as well as the second "l" in "Lincoln". That's what happens when your native tongue (Lithuanian in this case) has no silent letters at all. It's a phonetic language; what you see is what you get.
How about Houston St. in Manhattan? I didn't realize people pronounced it "Howston" until my sister pointed it out to me.
Houston Street seems to be a pronunciation everyone agrees on.
Have you noticed how Broadway has changed its stress in recent years, from BROADway to BroadWAY, particularly when referring to the theater.
>>Have you noticed how Broadway has changed its stress in recent years, from BROADway to BroadWAY, particularly when referring to the theater. <<
Actually, no.
Listen to theater types. Maybe their change in stress is confined to the theatrical institution and district, but it's very real.
Next it'll be dar-LING!
I call it houston, as in the name of the city in Texas.As a Noo Yawker, I don't mind If im different.
Where as Moo Yawkas who actually live in GREEN-ICH willage might pronounce it "HOWWWstun Street"
Stuart, RLine86Man
I say Manhattan, you say Man-ha-nnn
*starts singing* "I say tom-ahh-toe, and you say too-may-toe....I say poh-tat-oe, and you say, poo-tae-toe....." :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
"tom-ahh-toe, too-may-toe, poh-tat-oe, poo-tae-toe, let's call the whole thing off."
It's funny how people can pick Northeasterners out. When I was in a California diner once, I asked for "Cau-fee". Other parts of the country say cah-ffe. She said, "You're from New York!"
Let's don't forget "Stat-Nylin".
>> Let's don't forget "Stat-Nylin". <<
And we all know how Staten Island got its name, right? As Henry Hudson sailed into New York harbor he declared "Hey! `stat an island?"
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I take pride in having taught a friend from Buffalo the proper Noo Yawk way to say "LAWN-GUY-LIN" (Long Island for anyone without the accept)
accent! not accept....sorry guys
> "LAWN-GUY-LIN"
Why do people always write that we say "Lawn Guyland"? I have never heard anyone pronounce the n as in lawn.
- Lyle Goldman
Hmm...maybe you're not talkign to the right people? :)
Or maybe you just are hearing it differently. It's always seemed to me (and lots of other people I've talked to) that people with real thick NY/LI accents always sound out the last consonant of "Long" as if it started the word "Island". No whether this is more "Lawn-Guy-lin" or "Law-Nguy-lin" or some other linguistic variant I'm not sure, though it always sounded to me like the first syllable was a LAWN.
Just say, the island
now, is it on, or in the island?
Rim shot!
And someone else was heard to say "Well, duhhhhhh!!!"
You're not from around here, are you? :)
The true test:
Is it Sixth Avenue or Avenue of the Americas?
Legally: Avenue Of Da Amerikas. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Mahn
:) =
:-D =
+ =
No, but I lived back East for 13 1/2 years and was a regular Saturday subway commuter into NYC for three. I still feel as though I never left the area whenever I fly into LGA.
>>>>How about Houston St. in Manhattan? I didn't realize people pronounced it "Howston" until my sister
pointed it out to me. <<<
Another one is Tremont, which is TREE-mont in the Bronx amd TREM-mont in Boston...
ww.forgotten-ny.com
See if you can guess the following Nassau County towns from their pronounciation of a recent LIRR conductor:
Vallstreem
Murrck
B'llmooah
Waantaw
MTvull
All mumbles guaranteed authentic
Valley Stream, Merrick, Bellmore, Wantagh, Amityville. Watch the crap!
Mark
J/K! Ya ottah hee-ah how my Oma in Bellmooah pronounces sum op dese. She liv'd dere since 1942 and dat's how effrybotty sed dem den.
Gotta love Lawn Guyland, where it's never a crime to ax (aks?) someone.
Mark
Well what about Seefid, Sagitos, Good Yuma, supposably, aks,
just to name a few, oh and not for nothin!
God, I miss the island!
That's funny because I always called it HOw-ston, never really thought about it as Hew-ston.
>>>That's funny because I always called it HOw-ston, never really thought about it as Hew-ston. <<<
The mark of true New Yorker. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
[How about Houston St. in Manhattan? I didn't realize people pronounced it "Howston" until my sister pointed it out to me.]
New York history buffs can fill in the details, but the basic thing to remenber is that the Houston (the street) and Houston (the city) are named after two entirely DIFFERENT people.
1. The guy in New York actually spelled his name "Houstoun" and pronounced it "HOWS-ton." He was famous primarily for marrying into one of the prominent New York families (such as the Delanceys or the Rutgerses).
2. The guy who helped to liberate Texas from Mexico spelled his name "Houston" and pronounced it "HYEWS-ton." Also, he was born long after Houstoun died.
And for extra credit, guess where General Worth of Ft. Worth, TX fame is buried.
And for extra credit, guess where General Worth of Ft. Worth, TX fame is buried.
Directly under his monument just west of Madison Square Park.
Exactly. I've thought that the people of Ft. Worth should reclaim his bones (and the monument over them) and transport them to Texas. That little triangle opposite Madison Square, then, could become a suitable spot for a monument to someone more New-Yorky, but just as obscure, someone like President Chester Arthur (who apparently lived around there).
>>> I've thought that the people of Ft. Worth should reclaim his bones <<<
Why would the people of Ft. Worth claim his bones? He had no more connection with Ft. Worth than Christopher Columbus had with Columbus, Ohio. Worth was born in New York State, where he served with distinction in the War of 1812. He was Commandant of Cadets at the United States Military Academy from 1820-1828. He later fought in Florida in the Seminole wars, and in Mexico from Vera Cruz to Mexico City. He was in Texas as a peacetime U.S. Army General when he died at San Antonio in 1849 of cholera. The minor military post, Fort Worth was named after him after his death by a subordinate and was in operation for only four years, from 1849-1853 then abandoned. The city of Ft. Worth started from homes built around the military post, and continued to grow after the military left.
Tom
He was famous primarily for marrying into one of the prominent New York families (such as the Delanceys or the Rutgerses).
No, the Bayards.
I've heard Roosevelt Avenue pronounced ROSE-velt, ROSE-a-velt and ROOS-a-velt. Which is it?!
The Roosevelt family does it as two long syllables -- ROSE velt, while most everyone else does it as three syllables ROE Zuh velt.
His Enronship, the Vice President pronounces his name Chee-knee, but just about everyone ignores this.
my understanding is that teddy pronounced it rooooos while franklin pronounced it rose. it's possible given their different political persuasions.
Really the best one can do is if one meets someone called Roosevelt, say it like they do.
The division is apparently between the Oyster Bay ROOZ-uh-velts and the Hyde Park ROSE-velts.
My grandfather's rather large family was fairly evenly divided between them (MAY-tis) and us (MADDIS). I understand some of them had fairly complicated reasons for choosing one or the other, but I could never get into it.
It's funny having a name people are unsure of pronouncing. I was once in a class with another boy named Paul Mates. He pronounced his name MATES (one syllable) and I was MADDIS. But the teacher insisted that HE was MADDIS and I was MAY-tis, even though we told her how our names were pronounced. Teachers can be really annoying sometimes.
How are Desbrosses Street and Laight Street pronounced?
Dez braws' ez and layt, or
day brose' and light?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think it's Day-Bras, like Descartes is Day-Cart.
No matter how you say it please spell it correctly. It's
Kosciuszko with a "Z". After many years the City of New York
has finally spelled it correctly with the "Z". The street
signs now have the "Z", the subway map lists it with the "Z".
Born New Yorkers have their own dialect, so kos-key-oz-ko
is out, with the mispeling, it's now kos-cius-ko.
Welcome to SubTalk, Old Timer!
-Stef
I've noticed this discrepancy before. The sign outside Kosciuszko's house here in Philadelphia spells it with a Z. Meanwhile, his namesake town in Mississippi doesn't. He might have used both spellings.
Mark
ANY person from Brooklyn[northern.. esspecially Bushwick] would know theres a Kosciusko ave from Bushwick ave to Nostrand ave...
They used to say Kosciusko, now all street signs say Kosciuszko,
when the last time you were there. Also check the "Map" issued
by the TA for spelling. It's a grave injustice that has been
corrected.
Aye. I've worked in the Bushwick/Ridgewood area (Wyckoff Hospital for 2 years) before, so...yeah.......and don't forget that the Broadway-Brooklyn BMT el stops there.
Stuart, RLine86Mon
Stuart,
I'll admit I haven't been on the Broadway-Brooklyn El AKA J line
of late, so I can not clarify the spelling on the station.
On the December 2001 Map it's spelled with the "Z".
But going to Flatbush with our car, I was amazed and pointed
out to the Mrs. that the mispelling has been remedied after this
many years. Senior enough in years to remember the Broadway-
Brooklyn El of the BMT Division.
-John
Mark,
Thank you for your words, pertaining to Kosciuszko.
Somewhere, sometime, we "Americans" Americanized
General Thaddeus Sir name minus the "Z". The correct
Polish spelling is with the "Z".
I'm American of American-Polish Heritage and it's an
injustice of many years that has been righted in NYC.
And this is prior to "Ellis Island"
-John
How would you say this name? Its French or something like that:
"Dawes"
Is it Da-was, Da-wes with a long A or Dwas?
I would say Dahs
It's actually pronounced "Dawz," the way some conductors would say "doors"!
- Lyle Goldman
And speaking of pronunciations, that town in Mississippi is pronounced "koz-ee-ESS-koh". Don't ask me why. (I'm originally from Mississippi, and one of my best friends is from Kosciusko.)
Regards,
Tim
Tim,
Some where along the way it was Americanized without the "Z".
The pronunciation you use without the "Z" is acceptable when
using that spelling. Without cracking nuts, my case in point
is the City of New York does spell it correctly, so why
shouldn't we.
-John S
Oh, I agree with you there.
Note that the pronunciation used in Mississippi DOES have a "Z" -- it's just in the wrong place! ;-)
Regards,
Tim
I grew up 30 minutes from Kosciusko. "Kosy", as we called them, always beat us in high school football. Their marching band was always better, too. Where in Mississippi were you from?
Keeping it on topic, I once had a dream that the SEPTA Market-Frankford line made a stop in Jackson, MS.
Mark
Hi Mark,
I grew up in the Delta, in a little town called Rolling Fork. But I spent many years in Jackson. BTW, I have a fairly detailed plan for light rail and commuter rail in Jackson and the region around it. Started working on it after I moved to Washington, DC, in 1989.
What's the name of the town where you grew up?
Regards,
Tim
Hey Tim
I'm from Philadelphia, MS. I live in Philadelphia, PA nowadays, oddly enough. I lived in Jackson too, when I was in college. I went to Millsaps. I also put together some ideas for Jackson rapid tranist after I moved to the East Coast, in a spell of homesickness. Here's my map:
This is more for the city itself than the whole region though. I'd love to hear your plans and ideas.
Can't you just imagine the nightmare of trying to dig tunnels through the Yazoo clay?
Mark
Looks kind of like an inverted Boston subway ... ;-)
Looks nice, though, even though I am not familier with Jackson in the least.
What did you use to create this map? I have a lot of ideas I'd like to get onto my computer, but my paintshop is a massive pain in the ass to use. Then again, my computer in general is a peice of crap.
Hi Mark!
Wow. Funnily enough, your map bears a couple of specific resemblances to mine, to wit: two lines that meet at the airport (I have a third one running through!), and a line along State Street that terminates at Florence at its south end. (Actually, I've moved my terminals around a bit, but this used to be the way I had it.)
My parents, who know I'm into this stuff, sent me an article from the Clarion-Ledger a while back that said that, of the 82 counties in Mississippi, people commute to Jackson/Hinds County from 79 of them. A planner quoted in the article said that, in the future, it might be necessary to have commuter rail serving te region around Jackson to meet the demand and get cars off the roads. My immediate reaction: OK, you get a whole bunch of people onto the trains and dump them, say, at the IC Depot in downtown Jackson -- how the heck are they going to get to work? Downtown doesn't have THAT big a share of the jobs in the area. You'd need some kind of local transportation for that.
I changed my mode from heavy rail to light rail partly because of, yes, the Yazoo clay, and partly because I realized that while Jackson has a hell of a long way to go before it can support heavy rail, light rail isn't totally out of the question (although it is on the scale I've planned it!).
My system, which I've summarized below (and I'm also interested in knowing in some detail how you did your map -- I'm jealous, and I'd love to do a map for my system), does go out to the suburbs because otherwise there's just no way to capture any significant numbers of trips and make the system reasonably complete.
Light rail lines:
(1) Byram station - (Terry Road) - (Capitol Street) - (State Street) - Tougaloo College - (US 51) - Madison station - (winds through Madison) - (Spillway Road) - Castlewoods - JIA-Thompson Field
(2) Hickory Ridge Road - (Northside Drive) - Clinton Industrial Park - Mississippi College - (Clinton Blvd) - (Capitol St) - (South West Street) - Fairgrounds - central Flowood - JIA-Thompson Field
(3) County Line West - (Medgar Evers Blvd) - Five Points - (Woodrow Wilson Ave) - VA Hospital - St. Dominic's - (Lakeland Drive) - JIA-Thompson Field - (Old Brandon Road E/B) - (winds through Brandon) - Whitfield North-State Hospital - (Old Brandon Road W/B) - Flowood Dr - (US 80) - Metrocenter - Mississippi College - Huntcliff
(4) County Line West - (County Line Rd) - Tougaloo College - County Line East - (Old Canton Rd) - Highland Village - (Old Canton Rd) - Fondren - Millsaps-UMC - (Woodrow Wilson Ave W/B) - Five Points - Hawkins Field - (Ellis Ave) - Key - Candlestick Park - (Cooper Rd) - (Forest Hill Rd) - Byram station
(5) Raymond Central - Hinds Community College - (Hwy 18) - (Siwell Rd) - (Raymond Rd) - (McDowell Rd E/B) - (Gallatin St) - (Capitol St) - (North West St) - (Northview Dr) - (Hanging Moss Rd) - Hanging Moss-County Line
(6) Florence station - (RR ROW) - (US 49) - (State St) - (Capitol St) - (Mill St N/B) - (Monument St) - (Bailey Ave) - (Watkins Dr) - Watkins-County Line
(7) McRaven - (McRaven Rd) - (Lynch St) - (Terry Rd) - (Pascagoula St) - (South West St) - (Tombigbee St) - (Jefferson St N/B) - (Riverside Dr) - (Highland Dr) - (Frontage Rd N/B) - (Eastover Dr) - (Ridgewood Rd N/B) - County Line Center
(8) Brookhollow Place - (Hwy 18 E/B) - (TV Rd E/B) - Methodist Hospital - (Hwy 18 E/B) - Metrocenter - (Robinson Rd) - (via Monument St and Palmyra St to Livingston Rd) - (Livingston Rd N/B) - California Ave - Lake Hico North - (Livingston Rd N/B) - (Beasley Rd) - (Angle Dr) - State-Briarwood - (Briarwood Dr E/B) - (River Thames Rd) - (Old Canton Rd S/B) - Westbrook Road
(9) Monticello Street - (Monticello St) - (Raymond Rd) - (Highland Rd N/B) - Robinson-Lindsey - Boling Street - (Bullard St) - (Fortification St) - East River Place
Commuter rail lines (with connections to light rail lines shown):
(11) Vicksburg Riverfront - Vicksburg Washington Street - Vicksburg Howard Street - Beechwood - Newmans Grove - Bovina - Smiths - Edwards - Bolton - Clinton Industrial Park (2) - Clinton Monroe Street (3) - Clinton Lindale Street (2) - Boling Street (2,9) - IC Depot (1,2,5,6) - Pascagoula Street (5,7) - Rogers Street (3,6) - Whitfield Road - Value Road (3) - Rankin - Pelahatchie - Clarkburg - Morton - Kalem - Forest
(12) Yazoo City - Crupp - Valley - Tinsley - Anding - Bentonia - Vernon - Flora - Pocahontas - Cynthia (4) - California Avenue (2,8) - Stonewall (6) - Woodrow Wilson (3,4) - Mid-City - Fortification (9) - IC Depot (1,2,5,6) - Pascagoula Street (5,7) - South West Street (3) - Monterey Road - Florence (6) - Star - Braxton - D'Lo - Mendenhall
(13) Canton - Gluckstadt - Madison (1) - Tougaloo College (1,4) - Triangle (2) - Mayes (5) - Woodrow Wilson (3,4) - Mid-City - Fortification (9) - IC Depot (1,2,5,6) - Pascagoula Street (5,7) - McDowell East (5) - Byram (1,4) - Terry - Crystal Springs - Gallman - Hazlehurst - Martinsville - Wesson - Brookhaven Enterprise Street - Brookhaven Natchez Avenue
-- Plus a fourth line that follows line 11 from Vicksburg to Pascagoula Street, then follows line 13 to Brookhaven; this line would run only in the rush.
PLEASE tell me how you drew your map so I can do one for my system! I can't figure out how to do it cleanly without having to do it pixel by pixel....
Best,
Tim
You've got some pretty elaborate ideas here. Mind if I steal some of them? I'm going to have to get my map out and trace all these lines out.
I think an extenion of 12 from Mendenhall all they way to Hattiesburg would be useful. Highway 49 was always really crowded when I had to drive it. (By the way, I've got a plan for H-burg, too!)
But to answer yours and Jersey Devil's questions, I did that in Photoshop. I copied the format from the SEPTA rail map image that they have on their website. At times I have to do a detail pixel-by-pixel, but once I have, say, a green line curve made, I can just cut-and-paste, and assemble lines like I would model railroad track. Feel free to download my map to cut-and-paste from if you like.
More once I've looked at the old Jackson city map...
Mark
Hi again Mark,
Go ahead, steal whatever you like!
BTW, something I missed in your previous message was that you'd gone to Millsaps. So did I. When did you graduate? I was class of '84, but didn't graduate until '85.
What I've found difficult about trying to do a map of my system is actually getting the text (station names, etc.) on there. Did you just use the text function in Photoshop or what?
I have my map, drawn by hand on a largish piece of graph paper, right here next to me, and trust me, there ain't no room for station names. I have a feeling I'll need a very large graphics file if the stop names are to be visible. But I should give this a shot again (in the GIMP, of course -- I use Linux).
Regards,
Tim
Hey Tim
I graduated Millsaps in 1993, B.S. in chemistry, some years after you were there. Have you been back there lately? The student center has been competely redone, and there is a new dorm on Galloway lawn, blocking the sunset. My strange subway dream involved the student center, actually. I dreamt that the SEPTA Market-Frankford lawn had a station in the Millsaps student center. It was in the basement, where the post office is, or was.
I've been looking over you lines on a map. I'm going to have to sketch them out to get an idea. Some of them are a bit different than mine. For example, I envisioned my norht-south line as running down a median in I-55 between County Line and Lakeland. I should get a map and draw them out and send the plan to you.
As for text, I have a chemistry drawing program called ChemWeb, and I use it to make my text, which I then cut and paste into Photoshop, but Photoshop's own text tool will work fine. But I can see for a detailed map (not the subway-style map I drew) the file would be pretty big!
Mark
Hi Mark,
I E-mailed a response to you (I thought we were getting a bit off-topic for SubTalk). Did you get it?
Regards,
Tim
Hey Tim
It hasn't come through yet, but I'll keep an eye on my mailbox.
By the way, any word from Gil Charmichael in all this Amtrak debate?
Mark
Haven't been watching the Amtrak debate all that closely. John Robert Smith, of course, is heard from regularly (he's the mayor of Meridian and is either on the Amtrak Board or on the ARC, can't remember which). He's a rail proponent from way back.
If my mail hasn't reached you yet, I'll resend it. It should have gotten to you right away.
Regards,
Tim
Two comments:
1. Thaddeus Kosciusko was a Polish general who assisted the "Yankee" colonists in winning independence from England. I've always felt that his name was an ancient word meaning "jackknifed tractor-trailer on bridge during rush hour."
2. It's my understanding (but from where?!) that NYC Mayor Robert Van Wyck pronounced his name "WIKE." (Didn't he also "inaugurate" the first subway train out of City Hall in 1904?)
Spell it correctly please.
As a Polish-American and born New Yorker, I have no negatism toward
the misaligned pronoucing, interpretation or meaning. All I ask
is spell it correctly it's Kosciuszko with a 'Z'.
The City of New York's street sign's now all have the 'Z'. Why not
"SubTalk"?
And as a matter of record, the twelfth of February besides being
President Abraham Licolns birth date, it is also Thaddeus Kosciuszko
natal day.
-John S
What with the TA Museum being revamped, and September 11th, do you think there will be any Nostalgia Trains this summer? They are the highlight of my summer, and I'd feel bad if there were none this year. Also, I'm hoping the museum will reopen and not become an abandoned project.
I'll see that and raise ya one - here's hoping the new administration allows the Transit Museum to turn the old City Hall station into a museum!!! (the original date of opening - 1997 - is long past)
>>What with the TA Museum being revamped, and September 11th, do you think there will be any Nostalgia Trains this summer? <<
First off, the D-Types need some more work. On the tail end of the "D-Types to the dock" fantrip last year, the "D"s died at Fulton Street and limped home.
Since the museum is closed and if the train runs, it would be a straight run to Rckaway Park or Coney Island. I'll have to check the Museum and see if anything is up.
Bill "Newkirk"
i was planning to ride the train this summer ...
now you are saying forget it ??
One half of the D's was towed home by a a train of Slants. The problem that happened on the March of Dimes trip was fixed.
John P, Trevor and I went fannin on the J/M yesterday. We shot pics of trains at Marcy Avenue, then we went to Flushing Avenue, and shot some there. After Flushing Avenue, to get to Marcy Avenue again, we got on a very special train. This train's front storm door was locked, but it wasn't closed!!! You could open it all the way and feel like your flying. I didn't want to die that day, so I kept it open with my foot, and I got these pics, enjoy! (We took the B61 to the Brooklyn Army Terminal to see Bob Diamond's PCCs and possibly get pics, the guard wouldn't let us take pics, Trevor got one though)
If these pics seem a wee bit pixelated to you (I think they are for some strange reason), and you are willing to spring for the 700kb dl, omit the resize from the jpeg name.
Nice picture of Marcy Tower.
The subjuect came up today as to whether that tower was in the same place when the Broadway ferry stub was still in service, with the two tracks straddling it.
Can any Brooklyn-ites from back in the day shed any light on that?
Dave, according to book "The Brooklyn Elevated", that tower was
there before the WB was built. I don't know if it dates from
1889, when the Bway Ferry station opened, but the same structure
is in the same place. It controlled a trailing point crossover
right next to it, and presumably the diamond before Bway Ferry
station. The ferry stub tracks would have been adjacent to the
left of that tower. Demolition of Bway Ferry stub was 1941.
nice, I grabbed the big version of the top photo.
what webpage do you use fo your photos ??
He has his own - doesn't use a service.
Good old IIS pumpin out webpages on my Win2k Pro system :-)
Hope you have all the security updates :)
Shawn.
what webpage do you use for your photos ??
I don't use a service, I use my computer. Internet Information Services working on Windows 2000 Professional.
Wait a minute ! no webpage just upload from your computer ??
like from your hard drive ??
i just landed a viao laptop with windows 2000
What you are saying is that i can upload pics from that source without a webpage ??
& direct from my harddrive ??
explain please
i used this shot from tripod ..
hope this works ...
First, if IIS is installed on your computer, it would be in control panels>administrative tools>Internet Services Manager
What I did was I made my "Digital Camera Pics" directory aliased to be called 'pics' so when people go to my IP, /pics, it lists the content of that directory.
wow & on windows 2000 ...??
right ?? hope my new viao lap top can do this !!!....lol !
You also need to have a constant connection to the Internet, such as Cable, DSL, Satellite, T1, etc. It also helps to have a static IP address or atleast a dynamic IP addres that dosen't change everytime you restart your computer. You can pretty much forget it if you are using a dial-up connection.
Most important of all if you're going to use Windows and IIS is keep up on security and other patches at http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com. You are beggin for trouble if you don't.
Shawn.
well that deals me out i am connected to a 56 K
thanks a million....
My IP doesn't change a lot, but when it does, it does.
Nice pics. Were your pictures taken too high or were the chains across the front not there as well?
The pics were high.
I was looking at a Silverliner III and there is a seam between the side body pannels and the roof. A seam not present on the Budds. Upon closer inspection, the metal above the seem appeared to be painted silver, instead of stainless steel. I remember reading something about the St. Louis Car R-38's having a carbon steel roof. Did SLC generally build its stainless equipment w/ carbon roofs and if so, why?
Everybody built using LAHT until BUDD figured out the 'shotweld' process for welding stainless (and took out patents). Thus for years, PS, ACF ant St LC built stainless "sheathed" LAHT cars when trying to compete w/ BUDD for the ltwt pass car biz. The sad history was that the stainless/LAHT interface was a great locus for galvanic action and corrosion in general when water was present. The early scrapping and/ or sheathing replacement of many RR cars attests to this history. In general the BUDD cars had a longer healthy life than the competition. (a word here for Redbird lovers, I remember with some mirth the news/slide show at a CERA meeting in the early sixties when the first cars were delivered in red--the presenter said New York had a new color for dirt. I always liked the look)
LAHT stands for?
Low Alloy High Tensile (apologies for jargon) otherwise known as "carbon" steel. FWIW there are of course many specific alloys in these various fields. I have been tempted to buy the stainless steel spec book for entertainment reading.
Let me guess....that's light reading for you??? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
light, heavy, no just interesting. As a sometimes color film processor, I learned long ago all stainless is not the same. So I am curious. It probably no wierder than reading the fine print in a RR Employee TT as to various details. And in music when I look at an album (whatever format) I always read the personnel lists.
What are the average speed limits for these two type of crossovers (the first one is a diamond crossover, but what is the second one called?):
And let's say we have a high speed rail line, could a crossover be made that would allow high speed switching? It could be maybe a 1/4 long or so, like this:
The first crossover, a "scissors" or "diamond" crossover (or "X"-over), typically has a speed of 10-20 mph. The second type (usually just called a "complete crossover" or "crossover" can have any number of speeds. On railroads it is typically 30 or 45 mph. For traisit it all depends on how sharp the turnout is. Intra tunnel I would say around 25mph, on a outside RoW you might see up to 40 (like on PATCO). All of this depends on how sharp or gradual the turnouts are.
High-speed turnouts (60-80mph) are like you discribed. They are very gradual and often have several switch motors to move the blades. The very high speed turnouts (80+mph) will have what is known as a movable point frog (the frog is that place where the two rails interesct). A MPF has its own switch motor to move the point of the frog to that in essence, the train takes the switch just as if it were running on level track.
Another aspect of high-speed turnout design is easement (spiral)
of the closure curve. With typical AAR-spec low and medium
speed turnouts, the degree of curvature changes abruptly from
tangent to X (where X depends on the turnout #) instantaneously
at the heel of the switch points.
In the NYCT system, a "high-speed" turnout is 20 MPH!
That's what I was looking for, thanks to both of you.
In the NYCT system, a "high-speed" turnout is 20 MPH!
What about at mainline flying junctions or mainline flying junctions on the former IND? Surely there must be a moderate speed turnout somewhere on the system.
Even where the E proceeds southbound from W 4th and there is the option of crossing over to the F but under ordinary circumstances each train stays on its own track, the trains go quite slowly. I can't be sure but it feels like 20 mph or less to me.
The switches south of 59th Street on A3 Central Park West are set at 25 MPH for the diverging lineups. The Rockaway Line, if you count that as IND, are also 25 North of the North Channel Bridge tracks. I don't recall anything over 25.
It looks to me like the complete crossover is more desirable than the diamond crossover as it permits higher speeds and a smoother ride. Therefore, why would the diamond be used at all? Takes up less trackage, maybe cheaper?
That's a good question, too bad I don't know the answer. In Sao Paulo, their subway uses only complete crossovers. And they really travel fast over them.
There are lots of situations where you want the crossover to take up as little space as possible. For example, just before a terminal station, you want the crossover as near to the terminal as possible so that incoming and outgoing trains interfere with each other for the minimum distance. When you don't do that you get the situation of the E at Parson/Archer only being able to turn 12 tph.
Other situations might involve a lack of space where tunnel construction costs would much higher if you spread out the crossover. Or because the tracks are diverging, either in level or in direction, shortly after leaving a station.
The biggest reason is confined space in tunnels. For a normal crossover one needs a gallery that is twice the length of one required for a diamond X over. This can lead to some engineering challenges that can turn out to be rather pricy.
BTW, any place where two running rails must interesct (like a switch frog or diamond) sees a lot of punishment from the rolling stock and as a result is quite maintainence intensive. A typical crossover has 4 such locations, a diamond crossover has 8.
Once the IRT Flushing line (7) operates the R-62 fleet, the whole line would never be the same, isn't it true?
True that is; And I will be missing those lovely redbirds. Since I 've always use the 7 to get to mah school. I will be hearing those annoying closing door chime daily.
terrible !!
Oh calm down, they were falling apart anyways. The R-62 is the best fleet ever, they are performance machines, and you are sure to get A/C and heat 100% of the time. Corona takes care of their cars very well, and the R-62's from FLushing might as well be the very best in the systems history. So take it as a blessing, the 7 lines gets treated with the best, it doesn't change at all.
It is true that the R-62 is a very good, even excellent, performer. However, the likelihood that the R-62 fleet will be migrating from the #4 line is very small. More likely (though not etched in stone) is the possibility that some R-62As (also very good cars, built by a different manufacturer with different equipment) will be going to the #7.
David
I agree with Mr. Rivera. The R-62A's are very reliable and will definately provide what he mentiond before. I'm tired in sitting in a Redbird car that has no A/C in in whatsoever. In the summer, this can become extremely unbearable. Even though I'm saying this, the Redbirds are still my favorite classic car. Maybe we can build new cars like David said with a red covering. Any ideas?
I said build new cars with a red covering? When did/why would I say that?
My solution is to build 40 or so B/B' R-142 or R-142A cars and use them to make six-car sets, which would be coupled to five-car sets to form 11-car trains.
David
I meant to say that your car-building idea was great. it wad my idea with the red covering. Maybe it wasn't so good...
The R62A is my favorite car class. I'm thrilled that they will soon be on my favorite line, that being the (7) of course! Apart from all the subjective stuff, I will appreciate the far more reliable air conditining and the much less jerky motion and brakes.
:-) Andrew
Who said they WILL? They MIGHT or MIGHT NOT. It hasn't been decided yet, except by railfans.
David
The redbirds are going. There is no further discussion about that. More are disappearing all the time into the ocean. The R142 and R142A cannot, at present, run on the (7), mainly because the Corona yard cannot handle them. So...what's it gonna be? Nothing? (7) service cancelled all together? I don't think Roosevelt Ave can handle that much pedestrian traffic. ;-D No. The (7) will have to run either R62s or R62A's. At most it is a question of which.
:-) Andrew
I'm really going to miss those Redbirds, god bless them. The most beloved rolling stock that the IRT has ever had for any of the IRT lines, especially the (7).
Sure the WF 33/36s are fun to railfan on, but as daily riders they suck severely.
1. Major window leaks make half the seats on the train unusable during heavy rain.
2. Very poor door seals lead to drafty, cold cars in winter and overly warm cars in summer.
3. Spotty A/C means that at best, cars in summer are slightly cool when mostly empty. Crush loads overwhelm the A/C very rapidly.
4. Spotty heat means that the cars are perpetually cold in winter, a problem worsened by the fact that the 7 is an almost entirely outside line.
5. Ancient window latches occasionally fail, resulting in unclosable windows.
6. Soundproofing that was minimal to begin with and has now degraded to dust means that the cars are excessively loud.
7. 40 year old motors cause very jerky, inconsistent acceleration.
8. 40 year old brakes cause very jerky, inconsistent braking.
9. 40 year old lights are somewhat dim and go out over 3rd rail gaps, making severe difficulties when attempting to read.
10. 40 year old LAHT carbodies are rusted through all over the place.
11. About 50% of all redbird end doors have broken latches, leading to doors that slide open of their own volition on sharp curves.
Whatever love may have once existed for these cars is pretty much gone by those of us who have to use them.
Dan
>>> Whatever love may have once existed for these cars is pretty much gone by those of us who have to use them. <<<
What you wrote makes me homesick for all of the IRT as I knew it in the early ‘50s.
Tom
What you wrote makes me homesick for all of the IRT as I knew it in the early ‘50s.
Don't get me wrong, I love the 'boids on a sunny day in May. If I'm exhausted and late and carrying 20 lbs. of books and it's 34º and pouring outside I'd much rather be on an R-62A then an R-33.
Dan
>>> I'd much rather be on an R-62A then an R-33. <<<
Sorry, I can't relate to that. For me the modern cars were the R-12 thru R-15, and the majority of the fleet was Lo-Vs and Worlds Fair (I) Lo-Vs.
Tom
I know I'm late, but I took my first ride on the ACELA Express between Washington DC and Philadelphia...and the train ride was especially nice AND right on time!!!! All was great with the exception of a rude conductor (and I think the cars are a little TOO bright)
I feel cheated....no one on SUBTALK in their reports mentioned the automatic sliding doors, that don't close on you like the regular cars) and the really nice, wide, airport style restrooms....or the on board music.
I know it would be expensive, but I really think AMTRAK should think about upgrading all cars and sevice to the ACELA level....more people would ride the train...especially with the wider doors, aisles, and seating space. If you stripped the on board music system, and maybe some of the other smaller amenties...could an upgrade of all amtrak coaches to ACELA style be possible?
If I could afford it, I would like to ride the ACELA myself.
The fare was a little too expensive. It was $90 for the ride between DC and Philadelphia...nothing I can afford everytime I ride, but you should do it once if you have the chance.
Speaking of luxury....i guess there are plenty of people who can afford it, the car was a little packed with people
Yeah, my family and I nixed the Acela when we saw the price tag.
Looks like Todd Glickman will have to donate his "salary" as spokesperson to help balance the books over there! (Just teasing,
Todd! Seriously, hope you didn't volunteer for any Enron endorsements!)
Well, subway grrl, I only endorse products I use :-)
Acela, yes.... Enron, no.
Does ANYONE know what Enron does(did?) other than exploit it's workers????? And most likely the enviroment????
Actually, one thing I liked about Enron (not knowing anything about their shadier activities) was that they made very large, highly efficient windmills that really offered an opportunity for power companies to get a significant amount of their power from the wind. These windmills produced 1.5 megawatts in a 25 mph wind.
\
The northern plains states and the western tier of NY are ideal places for these windmills, and also would have the benefit of allowing farmers to continue farming on 95% of their land while getting a handsome rental fee on the small patches with windmills.
There are certainly other manufacturers, so I don't know if the Enron bankruptcy will actually set back the cause of wind power at all.
AFAIK, Enron may have financed these wingmills but they never MANUFACTURED ANY TANGIBLE GOODS. And thereby hangs the tale.
All the better. Then someone else is still making them.
Those wonderful wind farms in California.......were tax write-offs. Big wind generators require a lot of maintainance. CI Peter
You are right. A lot of the California windmills are/were in fact junk whose main purpose was a tax write-off.
But Enron and others have in fact been selling much better designed windmills that require less maintenance, are more tolerant of ice, work better at low and very high wind speeds, get more power per sqaure foot at a given wind speed, and in general are just much better technology.
Early technology never quite works right. For things to become good and cost effective, you need a suckers market. Either you need "early adopter" consumers willing to pay too much for status. Or you need the government.
All the "economic development" and R&D programs at all three levels of government haven't been worth a damn. But by buying state of the art, the government helped generate the computer industry, the aerospace industry, the drug industry, the internet, etc.
I wouldn't mind seeing the govenment buying and installing fuel cells, windmills, solar panels, etc., cost effective or not.
Enron went on a windmill building spree in West Texas about three years ago, and if you drive down Interstate 10 about 300 miles east of El Paso they've got mesas covered with them nowadays, though I think the California wind farm on I-10 near Palm Springs is still bigger.
Winds are generally higher on average in U.S. in the area between the California coast and about the 100th meridian, with mountain passes among the favorite locations because of the way the wind is channeled through there (and the desert southwest area is also a good location for solar power generation, though the technology there lags the wind generation sites). In the east, the areas around Mount Washington in New Hampshire and the western plateaus of the Adorondaks would be the best locations for wind farms, but a large number of windmills would probably bring the NIMBYs out of the woodwork claiming they're an eyesore on the natural beauty of the area.
I saw several mega-windmills along the B&O mainline as we snaked through the Cumberland valley.
I remember seeing those as well. They were quite a sight towering above the hilltops.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In the east, the areas around Mount Washington in New Hampshire and the western plateaus of the Adorondaks would be the best locations for wind farms, but a large number of windmills would probably bring the NIMBYs out of the woodwork claiming they're an eyesore on the natural beauty of the area.
I thought the windmills near Palm Springs were quite an impressive sight, not an eyesore by any means. But then, you have these people who object to everything, and surely they wouldn't spare windmills.
I personally like the windmills mounted on the single white or silver pole, which seems to be the perferred method. But last year, they started putting in some windmills near Palm Springs that were mounted on what looked like old-style old derrecks.
Too many of those would start to make the area look like one of those old sepiatone photos of western Pennsylvania around 1878 or southeast Texas at the turn of the century -- definitely not a pretty site when done in excess.
Believe it or not there is substantial wind in the western tier of NY, which is not particularly a high scenery area. It's a place where farming is more important to the economy than tourism once you are away from the immediate vicinity of the Finger Lakes (which are sheltered anyway).
Great South Bay could also be a good place, though the NIMBYs might fight that one.
For a NY State Wind Map, see http://www.abacuswave.com/truewind/
The first site they put them up in Texas was at Guadalupe Pass, about 100 miles from El Paso, to provide power to the Austin area. Six months after they went in, they had a ridiculously windy day, where the top speeds were clocked at about 90 mph in the El Paso area, but 163 mph at the wind farm. That managed to take out several of the windmills in the process, so there can be too much of a good thing in the case of some wind farm sites in mountain passes (though on the East Coast I think the only way the wind would hit those speeds is if a Category 4 hurricane struck the place).
Enron owns, well, used to own several natural gas pipelines that stretched hundreds of miles from its home base in TX all throughout the Midwest. It had subsidiaries in a variety of islands and nations in the Caribbean and South America which dealt heavily with oil production that would trickle its way back to the US. Would have been a fairly decent petro business (what defines decent petrol business in this day in age???) had it not cooked it's books and used those subsidiaries to evade the Federal Tax laws for the past half-decade.
>>> Does ANYONE know what Enron does(did?) <<<
They were a trading company. Classic middlemen who would try to buy low and sell high. Their thing was to find new commodities to trade, and to profit from the new markets in those new commodities. What set them apart from other companies was how they convinced the public they were so successful at what they were doing, when in fact they were losing money.
Tom
Holy Moly!! NINETY BUCKS from DC to Philly?
Geez, I remember the days when the METROLINER trains (a forerunner of today's Acela Express) cost a whole $37.00 from DC to New York -- and if the damn thing was over 15 minutes late getting to the destination, they refunded $10.00 to the passenger (as the regular fare was only $27.00).
It's a hundred bucks from NYP to BOS as per Amtrak's website. That's not even first class.
I was planning on taking the wife for a weekend getaway, but driving looks alot more cheaper. $400 dollars round-trip compare to $70 dollars round trip in fuel and tolls.
ACELA has 2 for 1 deals on weekends.
As far as i know, the 2 for 1 offer is pretty limited. It's never valid on Ac. Express or Metroliner; it's not valid on Acela Regionals on Friday and Sunday from 11am to 11pm (prime weekend travel times) and has to be booked with at least 7 days notice. The whole DC-NYC pricing scheme is pretty confusing. The short of it is, the best time to travel is monday, tuesday, wednesday, thrusday or saturday on the Regional...$70 from DC to NYC with the opportunity for the 2-fer if you buy a week ahead of time, so that'd only be $35 a head. Sunday, the metroliner is only $20 more then the Ac.Reg though ($107 to $87).
Or is there a new promotion?
I thought there was a special AE promotion for 2 for 1 on weekends. The usual 2 for 1 is limited to all off peak trains.
I'll look into this. Thanks
It might have expired, Todd Glick(Weather)man would surely know.
I believe it has expired... it was a holiday season promotion.
I thought it was during the summer, ended back in September.
It's true. Even my VIP card is no longer valid. Bummer.
This is understandable. My last few weekday round-trips have been 90-100% full, even off-peak. Why offer discounts when people will pay full price?
I have a trip this weekend, and will see how the loads are.
When I rode the ACELA home on Sunday Night....the train was nearly FULL.
Amtrak has just announced cutbacks in maintenance, so they don't even have the money to maintain the older coaches in the condition they're already in.
They did a rehab of many of the Amfleet coaches before the current cash crunch. This included new seat cushions (and colors), ADA restrooms, luggage racks at the end of each car, and better reading lights. I think they've basically stopped that project for lack of funds. Presumably the bigger upgrades to make it more like the Acela Express coaches were always deemed to be too expensive to be worth it (especially because they wouldn't be able to charge Express-level fares even on the fanciest refurbished Amfleets, since they just can't be run at the same speeds).
While waiting for the Red Line to Cleveland Park at Metro Center on Saturday, had the pleasant surprise of seeing an out of service 4-car CAF train pull through on the Glenmont side with a maintenance crew aboard. The cars were 5000-5001,5040-5041. The orange destination signs are very bright and nice and easy to read. Luckily it went through the station fairly slow since it was behind a red line train so I could check out the nice new interiors as well. Not sure if it was headed to Brentwood or maybe heading for the green line connector south of Fort Totten. It would be nice to see those on the other lines, other than Green, but I know that wont be for awhile. : (
This may seem like an odd request, but does anyone have or know where I can find a sound file of the warning sound that is played throughout the trains to warn passengers that the doors are closing?
Thanks for any help you can give me!
Matt
matt@idorapark.org
Me too, I would like a sound wave file for my computer. Can anyone help also?
If you mean da "bing bong," I got the real deal right here ... email above's valid, I'll mail the two WAV files (one for A, one for B division) as a file attach for ya ... if that's what ya meant ...
I'd settle for a sound bit of R-1/9 doors closing, complete with "pshhht" sensing valve sound. I've got R-10 bits.
It's on the "heyPaul tapes" ... as good as it gets unfortunately ...
I forgot about that. Heypaul's tape has both flavors as well. As I've said before, the doors on the R-7s and R-9s sounded differently from the ones on the R-1s and R-4s.
They sounded the same when they #@%^&*% jammed. :)
Can I have the WAV too, if possible?
rob5243@yahoo.com
thanks.
Yahoo screws with file attachments. Send me an email - support@nsclean.com and a 'real' email address, be happy to send it. And not to worry, we NEVER "harvest" email addresses, no spam will be stuffed in any cans. :)
LOL can i have one too?
Same story with hotmail - the attachments will be lost ... email me - support@nsclean.com with a "real" email address and I'll send 'em ...
Does anyone have the Acela Door sound- the "Cuckoo Sound" Todd- perhaps you can record this for us rail fans since you ride the Acela Express.
You calling the Acela door "Cuckoo" Subway-Buff!?!?
Sure... I'll see if I can record it.
I sent "N-train" the sound file that I have of the door chimes in the New York City subway system.
#3 West End Jeff
Not exactly. I used the phrase because the sound made when the doors close sounds like a cuckoo as in a cuckoo clock. Some traffic signals In memphis, TN also do this.
We had a couple of cuckoos pulling cords tonight, messing up the rush hour. Perhaps you know 'em Todd.
That sounds an awful like another composite bit. I have one which starts out with that exact same brake sound, then cuts to Looney Tune sounds - an anvil-like BONK!, Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff, then his "Well, back to the old drawing board".
I tried the Wile E bit. It didn't sound good after I was finished. I like Super Geniuses more then Super Expresses. Perhaps TD still has his copy of the exploding R46 I mailed him years ago. How did you like the R9,courtesy of Heypaul?
A few days ago there was a segment on the Channel 7 news about Undercover Police riding and ticketing people who do different things on the subway to make money. One of which was a group of youths that would do break dancing on a train. Saturday afternoon I was going to work and I saw the kids doing their act on an A train. I think they saw themselves on TV. When one kid was announcing his act, he said that they were famous. Their act was on TV the other night.
I have seen a group of kids doing this a few times about a year ago.
I was frightened for them, as they were being extremely athletic,
throwing themselves around, and I was afraid they would hurt themselves. Believe me, their act would have been dangerous on terra
firma, but on a moving train, it compared to other kinds of stupid
teenage behavior that make us all cringe. If kids aren't smart enough
to not do this on their own, I have no problem with them being stopped legally. I'm sure they could make as much money doing it in a busy subway station with a permit, and be a lot safer. I hope someone
hooks them up for the next auditions for the "Music Underground" performers.
I was too busy holding my breath to think of it at the time!
Has any of my colleagues in RTO seen any GOs posted for Museum Car Movements?
It just occurred to me that during the reconstruction of Court Street, these cars would have to move around.
-Stef
Those moves are secret. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Why would that be?
To keep down the foamer level. Also, to avoid having the trains vandalized, thier locations are being kept secret.
Peace,
ANDEE
I should have known.....
-Stef
I've been out of the loop. What is the #7 Train extension that
Michael Bloomberg has proposed?
Same one that's been proposed, on and off, for years. Extension to the Javits Center.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks, Andee!
I read about it in an editorial in the News. It was folded in with
discussion about transit work in Lower Manhattan, near the disaster
site. I had thought they were thinking of extending the #7 downtown.
Duh! I would hope they'd make getting to the Javits easier though!
Both for visitors and employees that site is a drag by public transportation.
I go to the Javits Center once a year to see the NY Auto Show. It is always a disaster between the waiting for the bus at 34/8th and the heavy traffic to/from the exposition center.
I went there once for PC Expo. Waiting for and riding the bus over took FOREVER!!!!!!
I usually walk from the PA Bus Terminal.
--Mark
The proposed alignment is via 7th Avenue, having made a southward turn at 41st Street and continuing down to Penn Station. I am very much in favor of a Corsstown IRT extension. I just disagree with both the proposed alignment and Bloomberg's prioritizing of it ahead of the Second Avenue Subway.
MATT-2AV
I was reading at thetube.com web site that Earl's Court on the District line will be renovated in 2003. That might mean the old approaching train boards might be removed.
London Subtalkers: Can you guys take some pictures of the boards before they are gone? I looked on this site, but there isn't a good picture of them. I think those boards are cool, even though the newer LED signs are good as well.
Are there any other stations with those boards left?
They weren't approaching train boards as much as they were destination boards. I believe that I may have a couple of pictures from Earl's Court, but if not, I'll be back in October before the renovations begin. Most likely, one of our BritTalkers will supply the pics first.
I think they are kinda both. They show the destination of the arriving train. I can't remember, do they show how long before the train arrives, like the LED signs?
No, they do not show the time before the train is scheduled to arrive. They only show the destination, or if it terminates then "stops here" is indicated.
I'll try
Simon
Swindon UK
There a several different types. I shall look into it.
Simon
Swindon UK
Cool, thanks.
I think there are still boards of the old-fashioned type at some other District Line stations, but they are smaller and less complex than the Earls Court ones, since Earls Court is a junction station with routes out of it in five directions (including the Olympia shuttle).
Incidentally the renovation of Earls Court ststion has started: the escalators between the (deep) Piccadilly line platforms and the District Line station are out of use for repair/replacement, and Piccadilly line trains aren't stopping at Earls Court. You have to change off the Piccadilly Line on to the District Line at Hammersmith (if you're travelling east) or South Kensington (if you're travelling west) to get to Earls Court at the moment.
Can you change at Gloucester Road?
Earl's Court was my home station while I was in London in 1978. To be honest, I don't remember much about the boards on the District Line station.
You can change at Gloucester Road, but it's not really convenient.
My sister used to board at Gloucester Road to get to Leicester Square when she was going to school in London in the fall of 1978. I was there in late May and found the boarding house she would be living in, on Courtfield Gardens, and saw it was about equidistant from Earl's Court and Gloucester Road.
You can change at Gloucester Road, going westwards, and at Barons Court, going eastwards, if you want to. It's the official posters on stations that advise changing at South Kensington and Hammersmith -- I'm not sure why.
I thought the escalator work was not part of the renovation, but emergency work because the escalators were about to fall apart.
Could be. That's a pretty common occurrence on the London Underground. (8-(
Can someone who's done it tell me the exact cost of riding the AirTrain from Newark Airport to NJTransit then train to Penn Station? I looked on the web sites but the fares were confusing. Trying to figure it Taxi would be better.
Thanks
Looks pretty clear to me if you look at http://www.njtransit.com/sf_train.shtm and then ask for a schedule on the Northeast Corridor Line from Newark Airport to Penn Station.
It's $11.15 one-way.
A taxi is over $40 with tolls and even a meager tip.
Thanks for the info, I thought the AirTrain and NJTransit train fares were separate but I guess the 11 bucks includes both.
Yes.
Note that if you are traveling on Amtrak, your Amtrak ticket to EWR also includes a ride on AirTrain.
The Airtrain is free to travel within Newark airport, and to & from the NJT station. As an airport arrival, you don't meet a ticket machine until you get to the NJT station. The fare on NJT includes the airport's tax or supplement or whatever you call it. In November I decided not ot spend the $11 to go direct from NY's Penn Station, and I got the PATH to Newark from 33rd St for $1.50 and then an NJT bus from the Newark Penn Station to the airport for $4, saving half the fare.
Will the JFK Airtrain be similar, or will you have to pay just to get to Jamaica, even if you don't get on to the subway or LIRR at Jamaica?
I'm perplexed at the pricing system because if you look at the cost of traveling from anywhere but New York Penn, the AirTrain surcharge is $5, but from Penn that slap a $7 surcharge on you. Any ideas why? As evidence, up until a few weeks if you tried pricing the trip on NJT's point to point system, it gave a price strictly to the station (w/o the monorail surcharge) of $4.15 for New York Penn, but $1.65 for Newark Penn.
The answer is easy ... the Port Authority and/or NJ Transit want to milk NY-bound passengers, who are bound to be the majority of the passengers using the AirTrain Newark rail link station.
If you're starting off in NY, you can buy a ticket to North Elizabeth and tell the conductor on the train that you're getting off at the airport. Then pay for AirTrain separately when you're at the airport rail link station itself, since it's always $5 to get in on the spot regardless of how you got there. That way you avoid the $2 extra NY surcharge.
Never done it the other way around (from EWR back to NY) ... can you pay the $5 to get into the NJ Transit station, and then buy a surcharge-less ticket on board to get to NY Penn?
I like that, or the previously mentioned idea of buying a ticket (while in NYPenn) for NYP-NWK and a ticket for NWK-EWR. For trips into NYC, I think that in order to pay the reduced amount, you would either have to prebuy the return trip tix while in NYPenn, or buy a EWR-NWK ticket at EWR, get off at NWK, buy a ticket for NWK-NYP and wait for the next train.
Let me ask another way. Whats the cheapest way to get from Newark Airport to NYC subway system via Trains only, no buses?
I don't know if this is the cheapest, but airport to Newark is $6.65 and Newark to Penn Station NYC is $2.50. That's $9.15 instead of $11.15.
I don't know if you can buy both tickets in the same location (either Newark Airport station or Penn station NYC).
Will the JFK Airtrain be similar, or will you have to pay just to get to Jamaica, even if you don't get on to the subway or LIRR at Jamaica?
Presumably it would be set up in similar way as at the EWR rail link station, since you'd only want to charge people who are going to leave the airport (thinking of the entire AirTrain ride itself as being within the airport).
1. Some of the 6400/6500s are making a comeback. These cars were operatng on the 2 line this weekend.
2. There were no more than two Redbird sets on the 2 this weekend.
3. As mentioned earlier, 6831-40 was in revenue service this past weekend.
4. 6821-25 was at Linden Yard on Sunday.
Im not sure but I guess once all the 6400/6500s are in, then 5 line fleet should start at the mid 6700s. We'll have to wait and see.
Car desk manager came back to me today to say that the #5 R142 shift began today. No great shakes here...did Redbird Carbody inspection. What we are being told is to do our best in making everything work properly IF there is some lack of small parts. CI Peter
You got it!
I have some time left over on the Freepolls account that I used for my daughter's recent science dair experiment (BTW, through different postings, including here, she ended up with 831 votes! THANKS FOR VOTING GUYS!!!!!!!!).
Anyway, so I'm running a poll for "BEST NYC SUBWAY CAR." I've arranged the cars into broad classes of similar lienage or design philosophy rather than pick this or that specific model--i.e., Reggie Welch cars (IRT Redbirds plus R16s and 27/30s) rather than R16, R28, R46, etc.
Define "Best" any way you like--i.e., Your Favorite, The Best Designed, The Most Durable, The Most Forward-Looking. If you have more to say, you also have a blank voting box, and you can leave comments.
If this looks like fun or interesting, I'll post the results on rapidtransit.net and run the poll from there. For now this is for SubTalk fans.
Take The Best Subway Car Poll
I was at Coney Island Yard today and saw R40s #4392 with fire damage to the A/C unit over the T/O cab. The cab also had fire damage as well. The cars the signed up for the line. Dose anyone know when this happen.
Robert
I don't know, but I do remember seeing R-40's last summer which had torrents of water streaming out of the A/C onto us passengers near the cab. Perhaps water-damage caused by this improper drainage finally caught up to the R-40 in question, maybe causing some sort of short (I'm not an elecrical engineer). I can't imagine having all that H2O swishing around the A/C unit could have been good for it.
It happened in late December. The car was part of a Q diamond put-in when the fire happened at Stillwell Avenue.
David
It was reported in The Bulletin of the ERA/NYD that 4392 was damaged in late December by an air-conditioner fire as it was in Coney Island Station enroute to Brighton Beach for Q service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What has become of its partner? Is it sitting celebate or committing ADULTRY all over the system?
avid
In December, the car had a fire due to a grounded cab heater circuit. The A/C unit was not involved in the incident but the fire department did do additional 'modifications' to the car.
There still seems to be much confusion on this site as to whether it is legal for revenue passengers to stay on the 6's and ride the City Hall loop. Someone posted that he had the GO at home declaring that the Loop was mainline again and could be traveled by passengers.
Yet, every time I ride a 6 to Bklyn Bridge, the conductor spends a lot of time yelling "LAST STOP! LAST STOP!"
So, is it legal or not?? FINAL ANSWER please. And since the conductors are kicking us off anyway, does it make a difference? Can we tell them they can't kick us off the train?
Thanks.
Dave....you answer this......since you're the one who has the GO sitting at home.
Stuart, RLine86 and 6LineBrooklynBridgeCityHallMan
They yell "last stop" so people don't think it's the train to Brooklyn. You'd be surprised how many people would get on otherwise.
I'm inclined to believe Dave Pirmann on the prohibition being lifted.
Whenever a train crew has asked me to get off the train, back before it was prohibited, I would usually tell them I'd like to ride the loop if they had no objection. If they weren't feeling like being an a-hole, or weren't paranoid about supervision catching them for an imagined infraction, they would generally be cool about it. Otherwise, I'd just hop on the next train.
Since the prohibition, I've generally not felt like testing anyone.
>> They yell "last stop" so people don't think it's the train to Brooklyn. <<
The (6) train has NEVER went to Brooklyn. And the platform is signed that (4) and (5)/<5> trains are on the OTHER SIDE OF PLATFORM.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I know it never went to Brooklyn. However, you'd be surprised how many tourists and idiots would get on at Brooklyn Bridge believing it was the train to Brooklyn. Believe me, there's a lot of people who just can't or don't read.
Or who are just plain (S)(T)(U)(P)(I)(D)(!)(!)(!)(!)
And that's why the C/R's are always so annoyed at that point in their schedule.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Well said, I remember this news segment where a guy was at the MTA learning center or somewhere where they had the simulation and he was running down Lex on the express track. He kept calling it the 6 train and siad he'd be in Brooklyn pretty soon even thought it was just a simulation. So... a lot of people do not know what they are tlaking about.
IIRC, the E and 4 lines are in those simulators.
And you think people read those signs? Hang out long enough and you'll probably find someone who will tell you the 6 used to go to Bowling Green, when did it stop.
Thats true but you have people who think the No.6 goes to Fulton Street or Bowling Green.
But you're forgetting one major thing:
PEOPLE DON'T READ THE SIGNS!
But I do have to say, if i were a tourist getting on a train at a station called "Brooklyn Bridge," my first thought would be that at least some of the trains that go through there would in fact go over the Brooklyn Bridge. Unfortunately, I'd be wrong, and I'd only get at best a view of the Joralemon tunnel...
Lets put it this way, I have a copy of the order that says its legal. Since I'm not an NYCT employee, I don't really know if there's been a more recent order rescinding this one. Some T/O or such will have to chime in on that. But when I find the order I'll post it. (Might be a while, I'm in the middle of packing for a move...)
(Might be a while, I'm in the middle of packing for a move...)
Hope you're moving out here to beautiful "Lawn Guyland"!
i rode it with a motorman back in 2000 shot it on video when we did it
I did it with a motorman just last summer.
I asked him if I could rid around the loop, and he agreed.
Thanks
Elias
YES YOU CAN TAKE PEOPLE AROUND THE LOOP. But me being a T/O I will never leave a bum or someone that does look right to ride into the loop. At least not the first three cars. You have a bunch of freaks and nuts out there and you don't want to be in a tube sitting behind a red when one of these nuts go crazy.
YES YOU CAN TAKE PEOPLE AROUND THE LOOP. But me being a T/O I will never leave a bum or someone that does look right to ride into the loop. At least not the first three cars. You have a bunch of freaks and nuts out there and you don't want to be in a tube sitting behind a red when one of these nuts go crazy.
Can't that happen between stations anywhere in the subway?
Yes it can but your not between stations for more than a minute or so. Plus your on the move. When you go into the loop your can be there from anyway from 4 to 10 minutes.
When I was on the loop last week, the wait just north of City Hall (on the loop track) wasn't any longer than 2 minutes...maybe because it was during the evening rush.
Stuart, RLine86Man
yep on my last run after 10pm its anyway from 5 to 10 minutes depending on how fast I get down there
YES YOU CAN TAKE PEOPLE AROUND THE LOOP. But me being a T/O I will never leave a bum or someone that does look right to ride into the loop. At least not the first three cars. You have a bunch of freaks and nuts out there and you don't want to be in a tube sitting behind a red when one of these nuts go crazy.
Can't that happen between stations anywhere in the subway?
Anywhere else in the system, there'd almost certainly be other people in the lead car, who might intervene to stop a skell's attack - or, more likely, would be the objects of the attack. In the City Hall loop, by contrast, the T/O probably would be alone in the car with the skell.
I agree completely with what you are saying, but at the same time I have been alone in many subway cars, and no one was in the next few cars either. It can happen then also. It can even be in the middle of the day. I've been alone in many of times on an M running through the Montague Street tunnel, and that's a long stretch to be alone. The T/O has just as much a chance of getting attacked in a situation like that alos. The only difference is that you may have a chance of someone entering at the next stop, if the train is in full service in the middle of it's run, as opposed to the loop.
The deal here, it seems to me, is that everyplace else the 'payng customer' has a right to be there, in the BB Loop, you could be in for awkward questions if something untoward happened in there.
And all the bum has to say is that you were trying to kidnap him on an out of service train, because you 'didn't bother' to tell him that your train was going out of service.
Who they gonna believe, you or da bum? Huh?
Elias
What is a skell?
Skell=Bum etc.,
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> So, is it legal or not?? FINAL ANSWER please <<<
If you want a final answer hire a lawyer! As much as many on this board disparage lawyers, a lawyer is the only one who will research the law and give you the correct answer in writing that you can rely on. If he is wrong and you are damaged by his error you will be able to sue him. Relying on his advice will also negate certain criminal intent, and therefore keep you out of jail. Final answers on this board will not hold up in court.
Tom
Tom's right and wrong. Matters like this don't appear in the Rapid Transit Law or RTL. And I wasn't able to find it in the NYCRR (or New York City Rules and Regulations). The only conclusion that leads me to is that it is an AUTHORITY rule or regulation, and not really public information, even to the lowest of lawyers. My advice (from a paralegal's p.o.v.): Don't bother trying.
Stuart, RLine86Man
<< Relying on his advice will also negate certain criminal intent, and therefore keep you out of jail. >>
Incorrect. It might buy you sympathy but if they want to jail you for an infraction, your pleading "my lawyer said it was okay" won't mitigate or exculpate the criminal act.
>>> if they want to jail you for an infraction <<<
Rarely if ever is one jailed for an infraction. But if you have a new scheme for reducing taxes or making money that is pretty close to the legal line in the area of fraud, a researched legal opinion that what you are going to do is legal, provided you have provided a correct factual basis for the opinion, will negate the criminal intent element and although authorities may find the scheme improper and order it to stop, there will probably be no criminal prosecution and you will not spend years in prison.
Tom
"Rarely if ever is one jailed for an infraction."
In "zero tolerance" New York, I would not recommend experimenting to see whether a charge of criminal trespass for remaining on a subway train that you were told to leave results in your being handcuffed and locked up or just being given a summons.
It really would be safer to make sure that you have permission to ride the loop, either written permission from the TA or oral permission from the C/R.
Does the C/R really have that much authority to clear you of trespassing (if at all it is otherwise)?
By law, they DO. (21 NYCRR 1090.9)
Stuart, RLine86Man
The conductor is the boss, the captain of his train.
I thought the T/O is the Captain.
Noooooooo........the C/R is the Keptin, and the T/O is merely an Lt. JayGee (Leftenant Junior Grade, as the Brits would say.)
Stuart, RLine86Man
But the T/O can tell the conductor to hold the doors open, which stops are being skipped, et al. Doesn't sound like a subordinate to me.
That's the case if he gets orders to keep da doors open by dispatch, or if there's a Red signal aspect in his face. Remember, the T/O is the navigator. And the C/R keeps the passengers in line, as well as the passengers moving (naught!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
"Lt. JayGee (Leftenant Junior Grade, as the Brits would say.)"
Except in the British Army they aren't called JG, they're called Second Leftenant!
Back on topic, the sole employee on board a Docklands Light Railway train in London is actually entitled Train Captain (yes, it's all officers and no enlisted persons on the DLR). As the trains are automatic, the Train Captain only drives them in emergency; the rest of the time (s)he operates the doors (using controls mounted above each door) and checks tickets. But there is no cab, and the cars are manually driven when in passenger service sometimes -- the Train Captain opens up a panel below the window, in front of the front seat, to get at the controls. Which means that a passenger can actually sit alongside the "driver" as the train is running in service -- this is fun for a railfan.
On main line trains on Britain's privatised railways, the person who used to be called guard (aka conductor) is now called Train Manager. Drivers are still drivers though.
Except in the British Army they aren't called JG, they're called Second Leftenant!
It's in the Navy that Lieutenant Jr. Grade exist. Second Lieutenant in the Army is equal to Ensign in the Navy, whereas LJG is First Lieutenant in the Army.
O.K., Sub-Leftenant then!
Leftenant or Lieutenant?
- Lyle Goldman
Canada and Britain say LEFtenant. The US says LIEUtenant. I worked with the Canadian Department of National Defence over the summer, my supervisor was a LEFtenant Commander. It's still spelled Lieutenant though, don't ask me why...
Isn't T/O a more senior position?
Maybe so, but look at it from an operational standpoint:
Without indication from the C/R.......or the Keptin, the T/O or Leftenant JayGee can't move his twain, right?????????? So who do you think is more mission critical? Unless you want the Leftenant JayGee to accept an promotion to Leftenant Commander, and run da twain in OPTO mode.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Not anymore.
Well ... it DID pay a few cents more than conductor ... that's why I went for it ... and have slapped myself for YEARS after having done school car. Heh. I coulda been a contenda ... concertina ... ummm ... next stop DeKalb, we will be flying at an altitude of six inches, watch the closing doors, feasten your seatbelts, we're going light speed in full field shunting ... if I can just get that ninth car to extinguish ... ummm ... can I get a car inspector?
No anticlimbers were harmed in this rant. I go home now. :)
I would have said "Fasten your seat belts" before the CPW dash. I can still hear the conductor on that first D train of R-32s I rode on back in December of 1967: "The next stop on this train will be 125th St".
Nah ... CPW was smooth as a baby's butt even at 55 MPH ... that IND trackage ya see ... none of that BMT "geese splattering the storm door" nonsense on the IND ... smooth sailing at ALL times ... and yes, 125th meant ya had ta put down da sammich, drop the wrench back into FWD and put the lights back on while counting to 3 after pulling some air. BFD ... urrrp. :)
The R-10s ran smoothly along that stretch, too. They weren't as quiet as mice, but OTOH they weren't painfully loud in those days, either.
T/O could be a Promotion and the pay is more but when It comes down to it the Conductor is in charge of the train. When I had the honor of working with SR I had to rub it in that I am the boss.
You and dad still talking? Heh.
Yeh. I had a lot of fun with that.
Heh ... well ... if you didn't make HIM walk the plank and he didn't make you go down with your ship, then all's well that oils well. :)
*lmfao* NYCT isn't a pirate ship *hears a loud "ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" in the background on the (R) train* uhh....maybe it IS.........
Stuart, RLine86Man
Obviously you've never had a "close encounter of the superintendent kind," matey. Avast! :)
Ahrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, no I haven't ye rail lubber :-P
Stuart, RLine86Man
The Redbirds themselves are walking the plank these days.:-(
Unfortunately (and fortunately for the 142's)....
Stuart, RLine86Man
The ones I saw were in FAR worse shape than the R1/9's or standards EVER got to be. Hate to say it, but the redbirds should have gone swimming ten years ago from the looks of them ...
I have never seen a redbird in that bad of a condition that you described a while ago.
4 line and 5 line had some amazingly bad cars ... a piece that broke off in my hand was properly turned into the conductor whose eyes opened as wide as saucers. It was a piece of the anticlimber. Whoops.
how is it the conductor is the boss of the train. Half the time when Command center orders a train to go exp or bypass stops they tell Motorman and he informs passengers and Conductor just complies. Sample below
Control to 1519 7 from main st
1519 7 from main to control.
Operator says after 45rd court house square make Grand Central your next stop.
upon arrival at court house sq, Motorman says attention passengers and conductor, after 45 rd grand central is next stop. those passengers wishing to get off at hunterspoint, vernon blvd, please wait for the 7 train directly behind me.
i have seen and heard this twice.
also conductors get asked the stupidest questions like is this a E train? Its JAMAICA VAN WYCK! NOTHIN BUT Es stop there. i have heard conductors yell. LOL not to mention not alot of people bother the motorman, and he makes more $$$$ anyway
>>> I would not recommend experimenting to see whether a charge of criminal trespass for remaining on a subway train that you were told to leave results in your being handcuffed and locked up or just being given a summons. <<<
But criminal trespass is at least a misdemeanor, not an infraction, and would require a refusal to leave after being told to leave.
Tom
Not to mention resisting arrest after being told to leave, and "playin'" around with the copper that came to put you AWAY.
Stuart, RLine86Man
My advice is to ask the C/R if it's OK for you to ride through the loop to look at the City Hall Station. If he says no and you do it anyway, you risk arrest whether the arrest is legal or not.
I don't know if it is legal or not, but the two times I rode it I got off the train and asked permission from the office next to the tunnel in the Brooklyn Bridge station....both times they said yes. -Nick
Possibly the most intelligent idea in relation to this. No train crew will argue if the dispatcher says it's OK.
Write a letter to the TA. You will have a written response.
From RTO's Standard Operating Manual
BROOKLYN BRIDGE LOOP TRACK (TRACK L)
Brooklyn Bridge Loop has been designated as main line track. The loop area will not be used as a layover track and dwell time (the time that trains remain in the loop) has been reduced. Therefore, customers will be permitted to ride trains around the loop track.
The following Public Address Announcement will be made upon arrival at Brooklyn Bridge, track #1
"Ladies and gentleman, this is the last downtown stop. The next stop on this train will be Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, uptown platform. Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
Employees no longer have to ensure that all customers have detrained when the train reaches the Broolyn Bridge Station.
I knew that I was right, however, on the 142's, they obviously don't and can't say what's stated in your excerpt from the RTO SOM. And for R-68's, the C/R's just don't BOTHER saying anything like that.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Let me know when you find an R68 going around City Hall loop.
AH! Sorry :( I meant AHRRR-Sixty-TWOS *duh!!!!*
Stuart, RLine86Man
In the past, I have taken a copy of that notice with me when I want to ride the loop. If questioned, I show it to the motorman. If he objects, I ask if he'd be willing to call his dispatcher for confirmation. If he objects again, I get off an wait for the next train. I've never had to wait more than two trains to get a motorman who gives his OK.
So if, and only if, you are granted permission to remain on the train, can you see anything in there? :-)
Oh, sure! If you stand at the STORMFAN WINDOW you get a great view of the historic City Hall Station.
Which window is that? :-)
Sorry, it's an "in" joke from SubTalk years gone by. As a meteorologist, I like looking out the front of subways trains, and also at snow storms. So one of our SubTalk colleagues combined "storm" and "railfan window" and came up with STORMFAN WINDOW for me.
>>>and also
at snow storms. <<<
Hey Todd,
What's a snow storm?
www.forgotten-ny.com
What's a snow storm?
Some thing with that white shit which we're lucky not to have.
"What's a snow storm?"
You *are* welcome to come and visit us in NORTH DAKOTA
Only and the moment we don't *have* any snow to speak of here either.
And that's OK too!
Elias
An appropriate comment from the webmaster of "Forgotten NY".
subfan
It's something you see out the STORMFAN WINDOW. But now that more and more cabs are full-width, there are fewer SFWs, and thus fewer snow storms.
You mean when the last car with a SFW is retired, it won't snow in New York City again? This has got to rank right up there with Groundhogs.
Ah, Alex, here's the catch. As long as we have trains in the NYCT historic fleet -- such as the D-Types, Triplexes, and R9s (and hopefully Redbirds and Slant 40s some day), we're safe. The SFW will live on, and so will snow storms.
So there's a message to all you weather geeks and transit buffs -- support the NYC Transit Museum!
Hmpf. If all it takes to keep snowstorms away is to scrap every last car with a stormfan window, BRING ON THE TORCHES AND SEND 'EM TO SLEEP WITH THE FISHES!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(did I mention that I absolutely DESPISE snow?)
One more, Todd!
And... as long as any railfan in the world has pictures of any NYC subway cvar with a railfan window. My PCs use a transit theme..I have BMT, IRT and IND and all have railfan windows. Even my network is has a railfan window and wallpaper is a redbird!
Where can we get that notice?
Last year a SubTalker (who is a C/R or T/O -- I forget exactly who it was), posted it. I just printed out the message.
I've ridden the City Hall loop once and that was on October 27th 1994 on the 90th anniversary of the opening of the first New York City subway.
#3 West End Jeff
I was on my way back from Downtown Brooklyn today, and had to goto the east side of Manhattan........so I figured, why not take the (6) thru the loop, just for the hell of it....just to prove that it is open "to the public"....and the ride went without a hitch...the only thing that happened was the C/R said that the train "would be going back to the Bronx"......which I expected, of course.
By the way, City Hall was in absolute dark, with the exception of the light coming from my (6) train....eery, actually.......
Stuart, RLine86Man
the only thing that happened was the C/R said that the train "would be going back to the Bronx"......which I expected, of course.
Was that before you arrived at BB coming from Canal, or was that when you asked him/her for permission to ride it (if at all you did ask)?
I didn't ask...and no, it was just after "departure" of the very dark City Hall station on the loop track...
BTW, I DID forget to mention that the T/O DID see me after the C/R made that announcement, as the transverse cab door was open after the doors closed at BB.
Stuart, RLine86Man
When I rode the City Hall loop the station was all lit up.
#3 West End Jeff
When was that?
Stuart, RLine86Man
October 27th 1994
#3 West End Jeff
Well, it's been 7 and 1/4 years.........
Stuart, RLine86Man
It used to be all lit up when they used to do the tours down there. When is the last time they did a tour of the station. The last time I did it was about 4 years ago along with 18th, 91st, Brooklyn Bridge local platforms. I think Rudy ended the City Hall tours, but do they still do any tours of abandoned stations, or any tours at all. How do you find out about any tours.
I'd check the Transit Museum's site, and see what they say....
Stuart, RLine86Man
but do they still do any tours of abandoned stations
Not anymore.
or any tours at all. How do you find out about any tours
A limited number of tours are being held this month and next open to members only. They are basically repeats of tours held previously.
For further info, contact the NY Transit Museum (718) 243-8601.
--Mark
Maube I'll ride the City Hall loop on OCtober 27th 2004 if I'm lucky.
#3 West End Jeff
I don't see why not.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Mabye I'll ride the City Hall loop on OCtober 27th 2004 if I'm lucky.
I really hope they will have all kinds of things planned for that station on that day. I don't see how they can possibly let that day go without all kinds of fanfare. MAJOR milestone!!!!!!!!!. After all the subway turns 100.
Yeah.....true, but if the adminiswigs at 130 Livingston/370 Jay/347 Madison keep going the way they're goin', the subvay won't be here that long!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Now, now...class
Peace,
ANDEE
You're absolutely right. They should pull out all the stops for the subway's 100th anniversary.
#3 West End Jeff
Talkin' about a super express!
I have ideas for a super express. They should run the "NX" to Coney Island and back once again.
#3 West End Jeff
I never had a chance to, but I wish I could.
Maybe I'll get to it the next time I return to NYC...
-J!
YES YOU CAN TAKE PEOPLE AROUND THE LOOP. But me being a T/O I will never leave a bum or someone that does look right to ride into the loop. At least not the first three cars. You have a bunch of freaks and nuts out there and you don't want to be in a tube sitting behind a red when one of these nuts go crazy.
Even if it is OK, most of the conductors don't know that. I've done it by pretending to be sleeping in the 10th car. If they catch you, what are they gonna do? Prove you weren't sleeping? You can't punish somebody for falling asleep.
You can stay on the train unless it is a Layup. There is one train in the Morning that goes OSS for real.
I don't even know why your going to pretend your sleeping in the last car when C/R's never check the last car. I only check my operating cars.
I have always seen that they would come thru the cars and chase you out, so I would guessm, no you cannot ride thru the loop
"I have always seen that they would come thru the cars and chase you out, so I would guessm, no you cannot ride thru the loop "
If you ask to ride the loop, I am sure that they will understand and let you ride.
But mostly they are looking out for those whom they think may be confused or astray, and to be sure that people realize that this is as far downtown as they are going to get on this train. I mean if you were expecting brooklyn, and the train looped without your knowing it, you will be mighty pissed to find youself in the Bronx again.
Reminds me of a time when I was riding trains in Japan. There they check your ticket leaving the train as well as getting on. I guess to make sure that you are not trying to swipe a few extra stations on them or something. Any way, I *wanted* to get off one station early and walk back to the base by a different route. With my being an American and all, and not knowing any Japanese whatsoever (and the station clerk not knowing English)... they wanted to put me back onto the next train for another stop, because they thought I was lost, and needed help.
I finally made it clear that I did wish to walk from here, and they let me have my way.
Elias
I've been looking around for a good explanation of ACSES -- the Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System. Here's a good one from the FRA.
Interesting. This new system allows for a special outfitting on hi-speed trains, while not imposing a cost burden on the lo-speed trains that use the route. I still think that the old cab signaling system needs to be upgraded to 5 aspects with a new "approach limited" cab signal so that a train approaching a 45mph turnout can proceed at up to 60 mph in the approach block, thus eliminating many delays.
I still have a big problem with wireless train control as it can prove to be much suceptable to interfereance than rail based codes.
I still have a big problem with wireless train control as it can prove to be much suceptable to interfereance than rail based codes.
Not really. Rails are noisy as hell. 25 / 60 hz traction return curents, track codes for other stuff, and the nice harmonics from AC and DC traction trains. Lot of noise. Beacons, on the other hand, can be fairly noise free - a transmiteer on a known frequency band at low power, and the reciever can be a dual conversion type. Even better, "passive" beacons, which would require no transmitter (and a much easier on MOW crews). Not to mention it's easier to filter noise when you know precisely when you're transmitting and what the carrier frequency is....
I am not talking about accidental niose, but purposeful or accidental jamming. The airways are much more crowded than rails and wireless is easier to intercept and hack.
Just a note: 'wireless' rail coding systems I have seen operated illegaly in the 2.3/2.4 gHz ham band as a secondary user. I had emailed my ARRL organisation about the matter and they kinda pooh-poohed it....the 'L' line CBTC was to have been on that freq but it was dumped in favor of inductive links. ARRL now has the 'hots' to fight every intruder on that band...the Olympics in Salt Lake has got a STA for television remote use on a secondary basis. Maybe the noise problem is why regenerative braking is turned off on all R142s...that the trainsets cannot find the induced ripple of another trainset. CI Peter
My objections were based on all the wireless networks they are trying to install around campus that are running int all sorts of interfereance. With coded track circuts you have basically one code point per track block (which can be 1-3 miles long). With CTBC, at the very least, you need to compensate for transmission disruptors (buildings, tunnels, rock cuts, etc) by adding wayside transponders are a much closer interval. All of these transponders then have to be wired (remember those stupid wires we got rid of? well they're back) back to a central processing centre. I don't feel that the marginal benifits of CBTC over traditional coded track circuts is worth the added cost.
the 'L' line CBTC was to have been on that freq but it was dumped in favor of inductive links.
Is this something like trackbed coils?
High speed wireless networks will shoot at each other unless there is a guard channel that they first initiate comm at. The CBTC system now proposed is trackbed coils set at 100 foot intervals allowing shorter track zones and a higher degree of trainset integration (word is 10% speed up.) What that system allows is a better measurement of time/distance/trainset position as against the R142 wheel diameter measurements (wheel cutting still requires the vendor to adjust the software for a smaller wheel.) CI Peter
What'd be really cool is if the system could measure speed between two beacons and use it to automativally calibrate the speedo in the car.
Ugh, feature creep. nevermind :)
Is this bridge the one that crossed the Harlem river or is it the one that transverse Manhattan Valley.Its the same pic from the homepage.I enlarged it a little.
That is on the Broadway Bridge between the 215 St and 225 St stations.
Heading northbound.
With a westerly wind at around 8 mph.
The London Underground's website has a nice little section of their website dedicated to some of the persons working down in the tube. It's called "Tube Lives" and is located at (cut & paste):
http://www.thetube.com/content/lives/default.asp
It would be nice to be noticed like these dedicated employees in London. Oh well, just gimme my check.
thetube.com is a very good site. It has lots of interesting thing about the Underground. That site and Sao Paulo Metro's website are probably the best offical transit sites out there, IMO.
Give you your check???
Are you sure you don't owe us?
Well, if I do, then you can't get paid. Write it off.
Heck, skip the day in the life....roll your cursor over to the red sidebar on the right("how's the Tube running now?") and click on "Tube Etiquette" Poll.
Interesting. There are two conflicting options though:
-People who don't leave newspapers behind (so they can be re-read)
-People who leave food or newspapers on seats
Which one of these are the "correct" thing to do over there? How about in the US?
Most of those choices people wrote in for them to put on the survey. It is probably just differences of opinion on manners.
On the E today, the conductor announced the WTC station as "Chambers Street" without saying WTC.
Is there a formal policy in place yet?
Well, this morning I had the conductor saying "This is the E to the World Trade Center, next stop blah" and "Next and last stop is Chambers Street," so I think it's still up to the conductor's discretion.
I've had them call it Chambers Street before 9/11...
I recently aquired these route signs. I assume that they are from the elevated lines and suspect that they fit into slots that would render them visible through front or side window to passengers on platforms.
Comments are welcome.
Hi Bob:
I like the shot by the NYC subway calendar. I have the same one, I guess a lot of us do...
Chuck Greene
I recently aquired 6th Ave Local and 9th Ave Local route signs. I assume that they are from the elevated lines and suspect that they fit into slots that would render them visible through front or side window to passengers on platforms.
Comments are solicited.
(Thanks Chuck)
Your assumption is correct.
You are right, much like the Low-V plate signs we are accustomed to, the plate signs in the "el" cars were displayed much the same. Same thing for the BRT "el" cars too.
What's with that calendar on the wall ? Maybe Virgina Division BMT can explain things.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks, "Newkirk".
I ran into some guy selling calendars on a fantrip a couple years ago and for some reason I keep buying them.
Bob
>>I ran into some guy selling calendars on a fantrip a couple years ago and for some reason I keep buying them<<
Hmmm.......sounds like some sinister individual lurking around old subway cars !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I just got two very similar in design. One was "Lexington Ave. Thru Express" while the other was "E. 180th St."
Mine seem to have come from a LoV.
I am trying to obtain some photos of New York subway signs for a student project. The specific signs I need have a black background and say something like "uptown and queens" or "downtown and brooklyn". If you know of any resources, on the web or otherwise, I would appreciate it very much.
Thank you,
Matt Mahoney
mmahoney17@hotmail.com
Forgotten-ny has a section on subway signs.
Also check ebay, as they have a steady flow of signs being sold there, most if not all with pictures.
How about going to the Subway System with a camera and taking some pictures there?
- Lyle Goldman
i was checking out the links on some rail pages and stumbled across this. very interesting, i had never heard anything about this before. imagine cincinnati with a subway?
tim
http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/subway.html
www.forgottenohio.com ( i think thats the link) has stuff on it too
Having lived in Dayton/Cincy through the eighties and most of the ninties, I remember hearing about this every once and a while, although i never went down there. Every once in awhile, the local news would do a story about its existence, usually tied to some party getting out of hand (people would throw parties down there).
They've been trying to build rail transit for decades there. It's almost as bad as the 2nd Ave delay (although with less implications for failing to deliver). Talk has surfaced within the last sveral years about building light rail on the I-71 corridor from around Mason to the airport in Kentucky in conjunction with the new stadium, the shifting of Fort Washington Way (I-75/I-71), and the construction of 2nd street (2nd street was constructed in an elevated manner with the underside partially hollowed out so a station could be inserted). I remember seeing some timelines and thinking how absurd the handling of the situation was. Every level of government wanted to put their hand in the cookie jar, so to speak. Te entire project was going to take like 15 years (1993-2008), most of which was going to be spent on feasibilty studies, and feasibitlty studies of further feasibility studies, etc. Keep in mind the bulk of the trackwork already exists...it was merely of acquiring the ROW and building a mile-and-a-half tunnel for the line to complete. The paperwork/red tape is what's holding this up. It would be nice to see the light rail happen. It would also be nice to see more than 6 Amtrak trains per week run through Union Station. I must say that even in light of the railing neglect, the city did a great job in maintaining Union. I believe it is the Natural History Museum now.
A_west
For all interested in the Cincy subway and a slew of pictures showing in good detail the abandoned stations, go to:
forgottenohio.com
Tunnel Rat
What would be the feasibility of building a regular, heavy rail subway system there?
- Lyle Goldman
impediments include lack of money, lack of perceived market for a mass transit line, unwillingness to "link" minority areas to majority areas. AND the ROW of the original alignment was 'stolen' by the Interstate. Its not clear to me that a great deal of Cincinnati works 'downtown' If true, its an exception to the general trend. I would be pleased to be corrected if wrong.
Cincy has a healthy and active downtown, but only during banker's hours. Unless there's a Bengals or Reds game on the riverfront, they roll up the streets promptly at 5:00 PM.
Another major impediment to completing the subway line is the presence of a large water main that was built smack down the middle of one of the tunnels back in the 1950's. At the time, I guess it seemed more cost-effective than digging a new trench for it, although it pretty much negated any future transit use for the tunnels. The water main would have to be relocated in order to use the tunnels for tansit.
One myth about the project that refuses to die is that the curves in the tunnels were built too tight for subway trains to navigate. In truth, it was built to the same specifications as what is now the MBTA Red Line, which handles full-size subway cars. (In fact, look at the photos of Cincy's never-used stations, and you can see their resemblance to original MBTA Red Line stations like Kendall Square and Central Square.) The actual reason for the project's demise was the fact that most of the construction funds were being squandered away by the city's corrupt political machine.
Thank God that could never happen in Chicago... *gulp*
-- David
Chicago, IL
Right David, In Chicago, you may steal as much as hizzoner grants you but the project must be completed else you might grow cement overshoes.
As to Cincy, I had hoped you would comment, and the rolling sidewalks pretty much prevent the fixed costs even with some tunnels in place. And yes I know about the water main--first read about this subway fiasco in Railroad Magazine forty plus years ago--have been fascinated since. Tried to arrange a tour when I was there some years back, but on a recent tour some city official slipped on the leaking water broke a leg, that was that.
Downtown Cinncinati is relatively insignificant, both nationally and within that region. Perhaps the failure to build the subway has something to do with that.
My data shows that big (200,000 plus employed) Downtowns and Metros go together, but there is a chicken and egg problem. A big Downtown is gridlocked without a Metro, but a Metro is an overly expensive boondoggle unless it service a big Downtown. Few cities have followed the streetcar to elevated to subway route that NYC has after WWII. Perhaps "bus rapid transit" will allow cities to develop Downtowns that are large enough to support a subway.
and if you add the racism of route selection (or rather de-selection) and Cincy IS the South, a subway would be a waste in anything but a genuinely carbon conscious society. The only reason in today's twisted economicpolitical situation would be two very senior Senators from Ohio in GOP. So since that is not the case, nothing will be done.
I wish they had some sort of rail transit...especially one that went to the airport so I could go into town easily when I have layoevers at Cinncinati/N KY airport.
Mark
Shh
Don't let him on to the Dayton Metro Web Site
PH
they have some intriguing people working for the dayton metro. the cincinnati thing is true though right? if not they have done a good job pulling off a joke.
-tim
they have some intriguing people working for the dayton metro. the cincinnati thing is true though right? if not they have done a good job pulling off a joke.
The Dayton Metro's a joke, but the Cincinnati subway is not.
Very interesting! I love stuff like this.
Does anyone know what's going on on the 4 line? There were announcements that there was an incident at 110th Street.
Thanks.
This afternpn there was a broken rail around 110 St. I'd assume it was on the express track. 5 Trains were rerouted on the B'way line from Nevins St to 149/Grand Coucourse. It lasted about an hour.
The Broken rail was on the Uptown Express track.
I thought so!
That messed up everything for the Lex Line. I spent 4 Hours on the same train.
Dayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyum
Stuart, RLine86Man
This may seem like an odd request, but does anyone have or know where I can find a sound file of the warning chime that is played throughout the trains to warn passengers that the doors are closing?
Thanks for any help you can give me!
Matt
matt@idorapark.org
You can always record it yourself on a tape recorder, then play it into a microphone and via a jack input to a computer equipped with a program to create a file.
I would, but it would be months before I am back in the city... Anyone interested in making a recording for me?
Matt
If the WMATA sound suffices, it is on my website in the DC Section.
I should add my URL, shouldn't I? It is www.orenstransitpage.com.
Once at Grand Central, click Departures (towards bottom), then click Washington DC on the big black table. The Sounds Page is towards the bottom, look for the big black music note. The link is to the right of it. There is a .wav with the doors closing file as well as a 10.5 minute MP3 of a trip from Glenmont to Silver Spring aboard Rohr 1299.
>> You can always record it yourself on a tape recorder, then play it into a microphone and via a jack input to a computer equipped with a program to create a file. <<
I hope that's allowed. I do recall seeing a sign on the Throgs Neck Bridge stating that cameras are strictly prohibited on the bridge, so maybe someone would be just as concerned about tape recorders in the subways.
NO but I can transcribe: "Pleeese watch the closing of the opening doors thankyouverrrry much." CI Peter
You rookies sound alike. Learn it from a Transit Professional. Not related to Mr R46.
Aah, a door closing chime on a pre-GOH R44. Cool.
How about an R-46, R-62 or R-68??????
They're ROUGHLY the same...I remember at some time before their GOH, the R-46's having THREE tones to their "sounds" And the R-62's having a much higher pitch two tone sound.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Chances are those three tones were nothing more than a door chime or two being out of tune. I've heard some doozies, enough to rattle my fillings.
I remember the night I went to take my (now) ex-girlfriend back to Canarsie via the (R) and the (N) and the (4), the two-tone chime on the (R) was EARPIERCING!!!!!!!! It was louder than the noise of the train on the tracks itself!!!!!! And I've got sensitive hearing....that thing HURT!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I've experienced piercing door chimes a number of times. Every time this occurs it is always on an R-46.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah........never notice how NICE the chime is on the 68 or 62, but the FERBLUNGENT chimes are on the 44s and 46s
Stuart, RLine86Man
Honestly, the chimes in NYC are the most ineffective I have ever seen. It does no good to warn people of a door that is about to close if it has already started moving. Why have one at all? The purpose of the chime is to alert people the door is about to close, not that it has started to do so. The ones on the R142, R142A, and R143 are just plain annoying. The ones on the R44 and R46 are very unpredictable. The only time it is acceptable for the chime to be sounding after the doors start to close is in a situation like DC. A recording says "doors closing" and the first tone sounds before the doors close. The second tone sounds as the doors start to close.
I know............that's the TYPICAL TA stupidity (no offense to the TA dudes on here, please)
Stuart, RLine86Man
I am aware of that, they always bend the rules to comply with the ADA. Can't hold a train in a station an additional second so the chime can sound at a before the door closes but they can buy trains that declare themselves expresses even though they make all the stops.
*lol* The only MTA soivices (services) that use pre-"closing doors" bells/chimes are LIRR and MNCRR twains.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I think what they meant when they designed the chimes to sound while the doors close was that it was to alert the blind that the doors *are* closing, whereas the conductor announcing "Stand clear of the closing doors" is supposed to be the actual warning that the doors are about to close. Mind you, with the way the PA sounds on some trains, that door warning takes the form of garbled noises roughly sounding like a C/R's voice, but I digress...
The most obnoxious chimes are on the R-46s. Engine Brake has a file of the chimes from the R-44s which sound quite nice. I've never had piercing chimes on the R-44s. They've always been on the R-46s. The R-62s and the R-68s usually have good sounding door chimes when they work.
#3 West End Jeff
How dare you not beat on my R44s.
No guys, I meant, does anyone have a wav. file of the R-62 or R-68? I don't want to know how they are, because I know what it sounds like. I ride the subway a lot.
I just got the sound file for the pre-GOH chimes on the R-44/46s.
#3 West End Jeff
Try here. They may have something useful.
Train Sounds
...might you find protesters and police riding on the subway together yesterday afternoon.
Scroll a wee bit down to the middle of this page for some photos:
http://www.mtska.com/Special-WEF02032002.php
there's some other good shots on that page of the crazy people around town yesterday, if i do say so myself... maybe i oughta just give in on the current job and go into photojournalism... (the 'reporting' is far from my best though... i don't even think i spell checked that thing... oh well)
Field shunting was included in a set of posts explaining how jerk is avoided in initial acceleration of an MU, and how shunting varies across the acceleration curve (if I read it correctly).
What exactly is field shunting?
Without launching into a graduate course on electromagnetics,
here goes: A DC traction motor is "series-wound". That means
there are two windings. The armature, which is the part that
revolves with the motor shaft and receives the current through
carbon brushes and a commutator, and the field, which is the
stationary winding around the inside of the steel motor case.
The field winding is a big electromagnet and provides the bulk
of the magnetic field within the motor. The current flowing
through the armature in the presence of the magnetic field is
what produces the force (torque).
Normally, these armature and field windings are connected in series
so the same current flows in each. This is "full field".
If a resistance is placed in parallel with just the field
winding (while retaining the series connection), then a portion
of the current is diverted, or "shunted", away from the field
winding and through the resistance. So, for a given amount of
armature current, the field current is now a perecentage of it.
The lower the shunting resistance, the lower the percentage of
current that flows into the field winding.
Shunting the field has 2 effects. 1) For a given armature current,
it reduces the amount of torque. 2) The counter-EMF generated
by the armature winding, which opposes the line voltage, is weakened.
Since counter-EMF is proportional to rpm, this means the motor's
balancing speed will be higher.
On NYCT equipment, field shunting is used in 3 ways: 1) At starting
to cushion the torque build-up and reduce jerk. 2) During coasting
to allow the dynamic brake circuits to set up without causing
excessive drag. 3) At the top end of the motoring notch-up
sequence, to increase the balancing speed. As I'm sure you've
noticed, it was this 3rd use that has been discontinued.
*NICE* job, Jeff! GE R&D here ya come ... best explanation for non sparkers I've heard yet ... bravo!
Remember the local/express switch and corresponding illuminated signs? Basically, all trains now operate as though the switch is always in local mode.
The local/express switch on the switch panel (through R-40S) only controlled which lightbulb was illuminated. It had nothing to do with field shunting. The energy conservation switch was added later during the GOH program. I believe that the #7 line was the first to get it. The energy conservation switch had nothing to do with the express/local signs. I also believe that the #7 trains had a little light outside of the car to let supervision know that a local train was not running in conservation mode.
Now all the equipment behaves as if in ENERCON-LOCAL mode.
Hard to believe. One has to go to a museum now to experience
the way the cars are supposed to accelerate.
I remember when the R32s had just come back from GOH. I was on a
train that was a dog! I knocked on the cab door. "M/m, what
position is your Energy Conservation switch in? Local,
this is an R local train. Do you know what that switch does?
Yeah, it turns on the little local or express sign outside.
Have you looked at the front of your train lately? Oh, yeah."
The rebuilt R36WF cars were the first with the Enercon feature.
It was crude....a light switch mounted in a household electrical
box with a piece of BX running down into the junction box.
The R36 cars have that little yellow light placed under the Express sign glass. The trick to that light is that it was only lit when the switch was placed to "off". Therefore if you worked a line like the 6 where supervision was hard on using the energy saving conservation mode, you could deceive supervision by flipping the switch from on, to off and back to on, while in parallel mode. Since the field shunts would not reset unless either running a gap in the third rail, or placing the controller to off and back to parellel, the light could remain off while enjoying the benefits of improved running time. Of course, a smart TSS who knew ammeter readings aboard the train might think otherwise. And there were RCIs who removed dead motor indication bulbs.....
Hmmmmmm. Very interesting.
I stand corrected.
You mean the trains can accelerate faster but don't?
- Lyle Goldman
No! The trains, in energy conservation mode, will accelerate as fast as a one with full field shunting, up to about 20 MPH. For practical purposes, the lack of field shunting will only reduce the top-end speed.
Thank you very much for your help.
What exactly is "balancing speed"?
- Lyle Goldman
The top speed that a train will reach if left in the parallel
notch, assuming nominal line voltage, level and tangent track.
It is the point at which the force of the motors (which diminishes
with speed) reachs a "balance" with the forces of retardation (wind
resistance, rolling friction, bearing friction, windage in the
tractor motors, etc.), therefore acceleration is 0 and speed
remains constant.
I rode home on a northbound 4 today, which sounded a single blast of the horn as it left each station. What's the significance of this?
Mark
Could be the C/R accidentaly Kept hitting the horn button when closing the window. I do that at least 3 or 4 times a trip.
One sound of the horn has absolutely no meaning in accordance with TA rules.
I beg to differ ... it means "honey on the seat" ... sheesh ... look it up, dammit! :)
Maybe he was "shouting out" someone on the platform or token booth clerk if the booth is on platform level. Or he kept hitting the horn button while closing the window.
What stops did that happen at? Who did it C/R or T/O?
I was on the train from 14th to 86th, it happened at all four stops. I'm not sure who was blasting it, but based on the other responses, I'd be inclined to believe it was the conductor closing the window, since the toots all came at about the time the window would have been closed. Never heard single toots before, but since they all came at the same time, I figured there must have been some significance.
Mark
This afternoon while observing the Casey Stengel Viking buses. Yes 996 and 998 are at CS. I happen to see the all ML R 33 consist move up a few feet to prepare for # 7 service. I caught a regular R 36 set and took that to Times Square approx 8 trains later, the ML set arrived at TS with MARKER LIGHTS ON. South motor 8918. North Motor 8954. Today was the first day this train had seen service since last month when it was a # 5 train. The train seemed to work great even though there are different air brakes. More ML R 33s are to come how many more exactly is anyones guess.
Are they running as 11 car trains with the single car or is that not possible?
As usual, the "single" (WF R-33) is third car from the East End.
In this case, 9338.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
So how many WF R-36s have been sunk to date?
0 to my knowledge :-). Let's keep it that way until I can come photograph a few more times.
I believe four to six R-36 WFs have hit the briney deep off Deleware, but they were the ones that were shifted over to the main line in the 1970s. The only Flushing line car sleeping with the fishies right now is R-33WF 9321 (of course, come July the fish won't use it because it only has those damn axleflow fans...)
Like TrainDewde and company have been saying all along------all "floatable" objects---including FANS-----are REMOVED from da cars BEFORE placement on the "death barge" *suspenseful music*
Stuart, RLine86Man
I happened to ride 8918 and 8919 yesterday with Tom MR36 Maley from 111 St to QueensBoro Plaza. 8918 was riding pretty well, however 8919 was very rough. At times it seemed like the train was going to stall and get stuck. I also rode 9534 on the Express. 9534 was the winner of the day-not the 8900. If the 8900s pass their test on the 7 without any breakdowns, then more R33 ML will go to the 7 and R36 from 9346-9477 will go to scrap. If they fail, then an R62A test train could POSSIBLY make an appearance. This is not definite-R62A fans. Do not get your high hopes up.
#9534 7 Flushing Express
I notice that there has been a lot written on Subtalk of the Sea Beach of late. Nice going guys. Keep up the good work---and eat your heart out Bob, Q, and the rest of you other psuedo BMT fans.
The subtalkers are being polite. They all mean Slow Beach.
You and Bob. What a combo you would make. You sure you aren't related?
Just take it slow, as in Slow Beach, Fred. And it isn't just Bob and me.
I'm laughing so hard I may wet my pants.:-)
Just thought I'd make note of the overaboundance of C Beech rhetoric.
This will soon come to an end, mark my words...
Discussion will soon resume regarding the far superior Brighton Beach Line...
;-D
BMTman
>> This will soon come to an end, mark my words...
Discussion will soon resume regarding the far superior Brighton Beach Line<
Aw geez.... here we go again......Brighton Line Rules !
Bill "Newkirk"
Here Here, Brighton Line Hip Hip Hooray, Sea Beach thhhh(razzberry sound)
Oh good God, another Brighton man is emerging from the caves. What next?
>>Oh good God, another Brighton man is emerging from the caves. What next?<<
Well, the Brighton does emerge from a sort of cave at Prospect Park with an unsurpassed express run to Brighton Beach.
Both ROWs have four tracks, but the Brighton has express stations. The Slow Beach has no express stations and one "express" track is severed. Somebody made a boo-boo back when the Sea Bits was designed, they left out express stations !
Sorry Fred !
Bill "Newkirk"
BMTman is a Brighton man all the way. Right, Doug?
I read once that there was once 6 tracks along the Brighton south of Ave H
Woof! :)
Mmmmmmooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
amtrak will be only a NE rail system between some local cities ....
just heard this on abc radio news here .
yep heard it agsin and BUSH & de boyz aint' gonna fund it anymore !!
arent you glad you voted republican ?
lol!!
He increased the budget for the Transportation Department by 19%, although what I don't get is how we will get out of recession when he wants to spend more but tax less. The money just simply isn't there.
No. You just print more money.
The President gets every weapon he wants. The Congress gets all the pork it wants. The taxpayers get lower rates (for now).
Then, in the future, when we get inflation and deficits as far as the eye can see, all the present politicians will be long gone (note they don't have to rely on Social Security).
Remember supply and demand. If more money is printed, it's value will go down. Not only will the value of money go down, but also with relentless spending, the deficit will enlarge, and then "Read my lips, countless new taxes". Just like Daddy.
"The President gets every weapon he wants. The Congress gets all the pork it wants. The taxpayers get lower rates (for now). Then, in the future, when we get inflation and deficits as far as the eye can see, all the present politicians will be long gone (note they don't have to rely on Social Security)."
The Federal Government is not a household that has to balance its expenses to its income at all times. It's widely accepted economic doctrine that a moderate deficit is better during a recession than either raising taxes or cutting spending, both of which put a damper on an already-low economy. It was a belief that the national budget simply HAD TO be balanced at all costs (and that the dollar couldn't lose a cent of value under the gold standard) that exploded the recession after the Crash of '29 into the full-blown Great Depression.
(It's widely accepted economic doctrine that a moderate deficit is better during a recession than either raising taxes or cutting spending, both of which put a damper on an already-low economy.)
Most of the tax cuts and spending in Republican voting states phase in later. Deficits are projected far into the future, at a time when the economy is expected to be growing. The temporary rebate was a good idea, the rest is bad.
The Federal Government is not a household that has to balance its expenses to its income at all times. It's widely accepted economic doctrine that a moderate deficit is better during a recession than either raising taxes or cutting spending, both of which put a damper on an already-low economy. It was a belief that the national budget simply HAD TO be balanced at all costs (and that the dollar couldn't lose a cent of value under the gold standard) that exploded the recession after the Crash of '29 into the full-blown Great Depression.
It was only seven or eight years ago that we heard dire predictions of how the federal deficit was destined to keep swelling until it devoured the known universe. Needless to say, as the 1990's went on, all the talk shifted to the way the federal surpluses would keep growing forever. Now we're back to deficits, but hopefully people have learned enough not to assume that what applies today will apply forever. But then again ...
One interesting side note to the budget debate in terms of transit and in this case, someone else's ox about to be gored: The Associated Press ran a story on Monday about Congress not only threatening to cut off Amtrak, but also taking 11 percent of the federal highway funds for their own pet projects.
Unfortunately, about 80 percent of the country doesn't really give a damn if rail transit is maintained and expanded, but when their roads and bridges start to crumble because Tom DeLay wants to build a new airport on the southwest side of Houston and Patty Murray wants to expand a maratime museum in Seattle (two of the pork projects mentioned in the story), the shirt will hit the fan a few years from now.
Unfortunately, about 80 percent of the country doesn't really give a damn if rail transit is maintained and expanded, but when their roads and bridges start to crumble because Tom DeLay wants to build a new airport on the southwest side of Houston and Patty Murray wants to expand a maratime museum in Seattle (two of the pork projects mentioned in the story), the shirt will hit the fan a few years from now.
I guess three airports aren't enough for the people in Houston ...
Amtrak's funding depends on Congress.
Why should Amtrak continue to be funded if there's no demand to keep it? Outside the NE corridor, passanger rail service is DOA.
Ahem ... not so for upstate New York, it'd be like saying "why don't we shut down the Jamaica el? Nobody's using that either." I'm sure busses could take up the slack for most of the subway, or perhaps people could use helicopters to Manhattan instead. I've *never* been on an Amtrak train that wasn't at least half full, and many were standing room only.
I include all Amtrak routes from Massachussetts to DC in my "NE corridor" remark. I use the lines in upstate NY many times, and I think enough ridership exists to maintain the entire Hudson line from Niagra Falls south.
Yeah, but kinda useless unless it goes to Chicago west of here ... I mean, I'm a loyal upstater and all but have you ever BEEN to Beefalo, Syracuse or the rest of the tundra? Without Chicago at the other end of the barrel, that bright light at the end of the tunnel is nothing more than an SD40 ... :)
Is it still going to go to Washington, DC and Boston, et al? The Northeast Corridor stuff?
finally i do not think BUSH is going to refund AMTRAK ....
toast !!
! Who will take care of the transcontinental routes then?
How has AMTRAK got into this corner of trouble?
Cars 6756-60 and 6841-45 are currently testing for the 5 right now and are making a run down to Flatbush Av. Perhaps we will now start seeing 142s on Lexington Av.
-Stef
They also tested 6766-70/6826-30 together with No.5 signs. We should see a R142 in service on the No.5 Line with in 4 weeks. They just have to train the #5 Line crews but the older timers love there redbirds.
Oh yes, the old timers and their redbirds.... I guess they'll have to adjust to this new technology. No more separate braking and power. Now it's an all in one deal. Lol.
-Stef
Hey! HEY! Bite me! :)
Ol' Selkirk don't go for this "space invaders" motorman interface, y'all. Heh. Give me straight air and 600 volts and I'll turn this rig around. Moo.
Stef: Check your email and my post about R142 news.
Saw a "not in service" R142 train passing through 14th street heading north on the express track.
I was on R142 # 6535 this morning on the <5>, but it's strip maps were still of the (2). Not to mention that some of the strip map lights were out at several stations--and NOT because the # 5 doesn't stop there....the Borough Hall station light was out, and I had gotten on at Atlantic Avenue when I noticed this. Oh, and the strip of lights only went up to West Farms Square...*shrugs*
Stuart, RLine86Man
If I'd remember riding the 4 to the subway series game. I did saw one of those R-142 on the 4 with the strip map of its route that day. Since then, I haven't see any of them. What ever happen to them?
The World Series Train now runs on the 2 Line, Cars 6311-20. It was a special event at the time requiring a special train. We could see new trains on the 4 at some future time as Redbirds are withdrawn from that line.
-Stef
Historically the East Side has always gotten new cars last. When the Lo-V cars were still running, the West Side (1,2,3) had new cars while the last Lo-V cars ran on the East Side (4 and 5). In my opinion, the 4 will probably have the last mainline redbirds. Of course, if the option orders are excercised then all redbirds will go which would, if history follows the pattern, mean R62 series for the East Side and R142 series for the West Side.(possibly save for the 1 due to gap fillers).
Of course, we wukk just have to wait and see what **they** decide.
Union Square's alignment and the gap fillers needed was part of the reason why the Low Vs lasted longer on the 4/5 (the 6 got the R-17s early, and that's where they spent the bulk of their careers), and the 6 again is getting new cars before the Lexington Ave. express lines.
Right it looks like the route order the new R-142s will go into service on is 2, 5, 3, 4, with the Lex-Jerome getting whatever is left over from the R-142 order, unless something happens to make the MTA decide the Flushing Line should get the last of the 142s.
Not probable. Knowing them, they would rather modify Union Square than modify Corona Yard. Then again, TA does not stand for rhyme or reason.
2 r142
3 r142
4 r142A
5 r142
6 r142A
I hope you're right about that, I like the 142As better so I'm hoping they go on the 4...
Except for the 6, right? The 6 will be all R142A's. But the 5 is also getting R142's.
With the R62's, haven't they always been on the 4? I know with the R62A's, they first showed up on the 1, then the 3 and finally the 6.
These are all editorials in today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution
MARTA can't succeed until it serves the region
I largely agree with this article, the GRTA should be an umbrella agency like the MTA. Altanta has 4 transit systems (5 if you you count commuter rail not yet built) that are all independant of each other. A seamless system would be good.
MARTA's absentee policy is extremely unacceptable. There is a 20% absentee rate, which mean all the workers work an average of 4 days a week and one paid holiday. If MARTA cracked down on this, they would not have a deficit. The union rules must be changed in this area.
Amtrak can't maintain status quo
The article started out sounding aganist Amtrak, but in the end, it made a good suggestion that Amtrak should be reorganized. I also agree where they said trains should get the same subsidies as air and roads get.
Rail proposal chew-chews state budget
The writer of this is a real asshole. This guy is Wendell Cox's butt buddy. He says that transit demand isn't there, yet he fails to mention how two bus systems that started up in October have been overwelming instant successes. While he is complaining of the whopping $2 per rider commuter rail subsidy, maybe he should find out what the road subsidy is per driver. He mentions how much road building debt the state has, but he has no problem with selling bonds to pay for the useless Northern Arc highway (mentioned in every other editorial he writes), which the majority of the city is aganist. The only thing I agree with in this article is the labor cost and union paragraph.
Who's Wendell Cox?
"Who's Wendell Cox?"
Ah, would that none of us knew who he was because he didn't exist. ;^)
Mr. Cox is a "transportation consultant" who appears in any community planning or proposing rail transit with a bushel basket of statistics and studies opposing rail. A typical Cox soundbite is that you could give each potential rider of the proposed rail system a Cadillac (or Lexus, or some other expensive auto) for the price of the proposed rail system.
There are plenty of anti-rail activists and "consultants," so what makes Cox stand out? His appearance almost literally ANYWHERE rail transit is on the table, his total opposition to rail as a viable alternative anywhere under any circumstances, and his equally total committment to eternal highway expansion. For example, when Atlanta was considering commuter rail a year or two ago (they're still considering it, IIRC), Cox's serious counter-proposal was a gridwork of north-south and east-west freeways two (IIRC) miles apart all across the Atlanta metro area.
What's Cox's motivation? Is he in the highway construction business?
Mark
Mr. Cox is a "transportation consultant" who appears in any community planning or proposing rail transit with a bushel basket of statistics and studies opposing rail. A typical Cox soundbite is that you could give each potential rider of the proposed rail system a Cadillac (or Lexus, or some other expensive auto) for the price of the proposed rail system.
I wonder if he was behind the somewhat different analogy the state of Connecticut used with respect to Metro-North's Waterbury branch. It was claimed that it would be cheaper to transport each rider in a stretch limousine. As the claim did not actually involve buying an expensive vehicle for each rail rider, I suppose it wasn't precisely a Coxian statement, but close.
His proposal would have literally destroyed the city in order to "save" it.
"A typical Cox soundbite is that you could give each potential rider of the proposed rail system a Cadillac (or Lexus, or some other expensive auto) for the price of the proposed rail system."
A Lexus? For everyone? That's great! Now what are you going to do with it if traffic levels preclude you from ever leaving your driveway?
The complete failure of Mr. Cox's sloaganeering can be seen in the following Second Avenue Subway example:
At full length, the line will cost about $10 billion. Lets say it serves directly 1 million Manhattan residents. For the cost of the second avenue subway, you might as well as give every Manhattan resident a $10,000 car (okay, a used Lexus...) for the purpose of commuting to work. Now what would you rather have as your means of transportation: a Second Avenue Subway, or 1 million more automobiles on the streets of New York?
The shortsightedness of his argument can be seen in the legacy of the dreaded Robert Mosses, rubblemaker extraordinaire. The car is the symbol of personal freedom. It's ironic that by pushing this expression of freedom to its extremes, you're left with a place bisected by highways, two miles on center, that nobody would want to live in.
MATT-2AV
The car is the expression of freedom, but the flip side of freedom is isolation, and the car is a very powerful symbol of that as well.
And I consider myself particularly independent freedom-loving individualistic...
Mark
Last night I was walking between the Atlantic Ave IRT and the Atlantic Ave Brighton, and see that part of the new passage way is now open. As people were coming down from the IRT platform they looked perplexed as the old passageway was all boarded up, then finally noticed that there were a new set of steps going down another level.
It was strange, as constuction is still ongoing, to look up from the new passageway and see the wooden railroad ties and the undercarrage of a redbird above my head, pulling out of the station.
I noticed the new passageways on Sunday. Nice improvement from when I frequently used that station transfer durng my high school years.
I passed through there on yesterday. Scared the hell out of me when a train pulled in overhead. Have not been through atlantic ave in a few months. Does anyone have the final drawing of what the completed project will look like. Was not expecting a completly new everything.
What exactly are they doing? It sounds as if they are widening the corridor under the IRT leading to the Brighton and 4th Av lines.
I've been there at times when the crush went over the bounds of safety. A moment of panic in the IRT stairways and people could have been trampled. The tight spot where the tunnel narrows to get to 4th Ave was particularly bad.
This is a station that deserves to be fully elevatored and escalatored.
That's the whole general idea........but as to when they'll actually install the elevators in the Pacific Street BMT section is still up "in da air"...they boarded up the old Pac St.-Atl. Ave IRT passageway though........the new one leads RIGHT to the New Lots Av./"Round"bush Av. (1)/(2) bound platform.
Stuart, RLine86Man
What exactly is going on? I used to transfer at that station from the B to the 2/3 every day my Freshman year of high school. I've been upstate at college for almost 3 years now, and haven't even seen anything of the Pacific/Atlantic passageway in so long i forget the last time i needed to use it...maybe to get home from the LIRR terminal one night? i dunno, but anyway, Could anyone describe for me exactly what all the consturction is? Thanks,
West End Scott
>>, Could anyone describe for me exactly what all the consturction is? Thanks,<<
What is going on is a long awaited rebuild of the both Atlantic Ave stations and a widening of that connecting passageway. That passageway is a study in futility in the rush hour. Both stations are to be ADA compliant. For wheelechair people, this is going to be interesting because of all the different levels the walkways are right now.
When all is said and done, the passageway will be much wider than present, the BMT station will have tiles on the untiled walls and lighting will be improved. The Atlantic Ave control house will be returned and restored but not as a functioning fare control area. It will be some sort of a skylight. Of course the IRT station will be redone and given a long overdue rehab.
Did I leave anything out ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, the ROW for the old Belmont connection appears to have been walled off.
Tiles on the BMT Atlantic Ave. station walls? Finally, after being gone for 40 years? That would be great!
-- Ed Sachs
>>Tiles on the BMT Atlantic Ave. station walls? Finally, after being gone for 40 years? That would be great!<<
Yeah that's a good question, what happened there giving us a bare wall all these years ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think I remember reading about some kind of flood.
subfan
Yep.......the flood was so bad enough that the BeeEmmTee tore down most of the walls, probably to prevent fungii growth (and the SMELL associated with it)
Stuart, RLine86Man
atlantic ave ...is still under construction??
when will it be finished ??
hmmmmm...
Who the hell knows? They say 'round 2003-2004.......but at the slowneck pace it's been going, it'll be by the time the 2nd Av. subvay is done.
Stuart, RLine86Man
u know i almost broke my neck on the street level...
no lighting at all broke part of my tripod....UGH !!
2000 fall....
On the street? Well, that's simple enough.....it's all of that "windshield" steel........that's all the "vestibule" is, really...
Stuart, RLine86Man
I was tired looking for some fast food ...U know how it is ..
the construction site on the street was dark & not well lit .
Off the curb i fall fell flat on the street !!
Embarassing & it hurt ! broke my tripod ..( sigh )
>> when will it be finished ?? <<
Probably a few days before construction begins to connect the LIRR to downtown Manhattan. I certainly hope the possibility of such a thing was considered in the planning of the current project.
> construction begins to connect the LIRR to downtown Manhattan.
Is that really going to happen?
- Lyle Goldman
Sarcasm is really wasted on you.
Wow ... and I thought all this time that that's what the Atlantic Ave BMT station looked AS BUILT!! You mean it had TILES in those vast spaces? I had no idea!
--Mark
Nope..........there was a flood in the '30's (IIRC), and the BMT just stripped ALL of the affected tile to keep it from fungii and the INCREDIBLE SMELL that fungii causes.
Stuart, RLine86Man
There are some small areas in the station where the original tile remains - I think there is a very short section on the NB track wall and a longer one on the SB wall, but I may have them reversed.
subfan
There are tiled areas, yes, but those are remenants of what was left over from the flood---sections that were "unaffected", but are, of course, losing tiles, too, due to 'age'
Stuart, RLine86Man
The section on the northbound track wall and the southern tiles on the southbound track wall look different from the rest: they have all white tiles on top, as opposed to the color band with the little A's on top on the rest. Is it really all original tile?
- Lyle Goldman
I seem to recall there being tiles on the walls at least into the late 1950s.
-- Ed Sachs
Whenever........but it was the result of a flood, no?
Stuart, RLine86Man
Is this what happened at 86th St. 4th Av.?
Hooray!
Lately, I've been seeing what look like survey marks on the Q Line Atlantic Avenue walls, as well as new cement. Does this mean they will be re-tiling the walls very soon?
- Lyle Goldman
I took a trip over there today. I never realized it had changed so much since I was last there (probably my first day out on the road, relaying the W's at Pacific on 7-22!). Them they had had the boards up, but the layout was the same. Now I couldn't even recognize the place! They moved a passageway over, leading to the slight wooden ramp to the IRT platform. The old stairs are still there, and you can see the old passage, to Pacific, which is below and to the left of the new passage. And where you pass under the IRT is totally different. Even more strange than looking up at the tracks, is being on the IRT platform and looking down through the tracks--it's like an indoor structure! Nothing else like it.
It should be so nice when all this is finished. I ecven saw the old station house in the lot across the street. I knew it was gone from the site, but I didn't know they had moved it almost whole (or it looked like the top half of it).
From the descriptions, it seems that when you move up to the Pacific St. mezzanine, you can now directly walk to the eastbound (B'lyn bound) IRT platform, with a slight ramp upwards.
How you get to the passage under the IRT is still somewhat mysterious, but it's clear this passage has been moved, but exactly where I don't know. It sounds like it's been moved northwestward, towards the Manhattan-most ends of the IRT platforms.
What have they done ease the connection from Pacific to Atlantic? I imagine they've eliminated some stairs, and widened (or will widen) the connecting corridor.
As for the IRT now looking like an elevated station, I bet the whole thing is now quite a bit noisier.
If you are heasign down the ramp to pacific steet from the brooklyn 2 irt platform. There is a wide stairway (half mood shaped) that leads sown to the LIRR, Q atlantic ave platform. Once at the bottem of the stairway, riders are rejoinded with the old walkway. The walkway is lined with metal walls. They are probably building a wall behind this that will make that walkway wider. Its worth the trip to check out the changes. I changed trains at atlantic every day for 4 years. I did not recognize the place
I checked this out today. With the new corridors and stairways, it's like being in a totally different station. I really dug that indoor "el" when you look up.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since I haven't been in the area for quite a while, I have some questions: Are they building anything above the LIRR station yet? Has that old IRT Kiosk that sood in the middle of Atlantic/Flatbush been returned?
>>>Since I haven't been in the area for quite a while, I have some questions: Are they building anything above the LIRR station
yet?<<<
They'll build something there in my lifetime...
heh
www.forgotten-ny.com
They'll build something there in my lifetime...
How and when did you acheive immortality?
The Times Plaza Building (aka IRT Kiosk) is still sitting in the trianglur lot across the street (bounded by Flatbush, Atlantic & 5th Aves).
I believe it is still in need of rehabilition before it can be returned to its original location.
BMTman
A new mall is being buit atop the lirr terminal with provisions for an office tower on top. The mall is being built by the same developer as the Atlantic Center Mall just to the east. Acoring to the NY times, the mall has already broke ground and is being built simultaniously with the staion rehab.
I received an email about a year or two ago from someone who said he was involved with the design of the new building. He wanted a picture of the old Flatbush Ave. terminal building since he said that they hoped to incorprate some of its architectural style into the new building.
I liked the fact that I can transfer from Pacific to the Flatbush/New Lots lines without having to go down any stairs. I was rather suprised, but pleased at the new configuration. It'll ease the pedestrian congestion from BMT to IRT and the LIRR.
Yep. Should do exactly thot.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I liked the fact that I can transfer from Pacific to the Flatbush/New Lots lines without having to go down any stairs.
I don't see how this is possible. The level of the Pacific St. trains is way underneath that of the IRT.
He didn't say he didn't have to go up stairs.
The new transfer tunnel that's now in place is without any stairs to what was once the original transfer tunnel......it's LEVEL with the (1)/(2) South/Eastbound platform.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I meant after rising to the Pacific St. mezzanine. In the old config. I'd have to go down a few steps and walk the long narrow passageway to the area underneath the IRT, then rise up another set of stairs. With the new setup, a passageway leeds me directly to the southbound local IRT platform from the Pacific St. mezzanine.
Little story from yesterday's railfanning...
I was out early doing some railfanning and I ended up at Kipling, the western end of the B-D line. I went upstairs and got a coffee and something to eat and returned to the subway platform and got on the first car of the waiting train. The driver entered and set up the driving controls in that cab and left, going into the crew room at that end of the platform. When it was time to go the driver returned, the doors closed and the driver put the control handle in series to go over the switches. The train started up - and went backwards for about 25 or 30 feet before the driver put the emergency brakes on and set the reverser correctly on "FWD" after having accidentally put it on "REV" when he set up that end the first time he entered the cab. I don't think this was caught by any of the supervisors in the crew room but someone needed another cup of coffee or something.
-Robert King
Somewhere Caz Dolowicz was saying, "I'm gonna write him up for this, &^#$#@$^%, I'm gonna have his ass."
Forwards, Backwards. Hey as long as you're going fast, does it really matter? Its not called Rapid Forwards Transit.
:-)
>> I was out early doing some railfanning and I ended up at Kipling, the western end of the B-D line.>>
Where exactly is Kipling?
It's in Toronto, and is the western terminal of the Bloor-Danforth Subway.
Wouldn't it be nice if those SubTalkers posting about non-New York locales would identify the CITY they are talking about!!! How the heck is the average NY railfan supposed to know where Kipling on the B-D line is??
Hell, I'm in Baltimore, and my rail experience (systems & localities) goes back to the middle 1950's.
As a serious railfan, I knew what ran where and rode a lot of it.
I do agree that all of us who are non-New Yorkers should identify the systems they talk about. Makes it easier for everybody.
I would like to point out that there's a very good place to familiarize yourself with the systems other than New York. It's called New York Subway Resources, and there's a wealth of info here, if you only check it out.
Thanks, but I've read most of the NY Subway Resources site. That wouldn't help if someone springs on you "I was at the westbound Kipling terminal of the B/D line."
or "I ended up at Chesham on the Met" (London) LOL!
Or worse - I almost ended up at Edgware (Northern), but it was nowhere near Edgeware Road (Circle/District) or Edgeware Road (Bakerloo). I did end up at Edgeware anyways since I was railfanning on some 59 stock...
-Robert King
I'm guilty of that. We have a Kipling St. in Lakewood, a suburb west of Denver.
If it isn't mentioned, asking where will usually get you an answer as it did just now. B-D is the commonly used short form for the Bloor-Danforth line (you don't hear 602 much). The Bloor-Danforth line is presently the only east-west subway line in Toronto. Hopefully you know where Toronto is.
-Robert King
This fall I plan to go to Sicily for vacation. I understand Palermo has a underground metropolitan railway line. Does anyone have more information about this line? It is hard to find info about this on the internet.
I checked Robert Schwandl's Metro Planet site, and the only metro on Sicily I could find was this one for Catania.
Mark
I visited Palermo 2 years ago. There is a metro shown on local maps. But I believe it is really a commuter rail line that serves a very small loop around the downtown area and runs very infrequently. I know one of the stops is the main railway station, so you could start by asking about it there.
As someone else said, there is a new (but short) metro in Catania.
This link will take you to the Palermo Metro timetable (in Italian). It seems there is now a branch to the airport.
http://www.palermoweb.com/metropa/
Anyone know what happened in the 53rd street tunnel yesterday? Got on a V and they said all trains were going through 63rd street. Of course people were all confused.
Conductor said "mechanical problems", station announcements referred to it as "an incident"...anyone know what happened?
Maybe Ralph struck again.:-)
Story here.
I had the opportunity to venture over to the Bush Terminal area today and noticed Redbird #9306 coupled to 2 MOW (and former Redbirds). I wasn't able to get their numbers (I believe they were both G7-something), but along side on the other scap track was a set of what I believe was a set of rail grinders with a tamping car between them.
They might be there awhile since NYCH isn't able to get up to the interchange until street trackage is repaired.
Wish I had my camera with me...
BMTman
9306? Isn't that the World's Fair R-33 that is preserved at the Transit Museum in original World's Fair colors?
Check the posted message from Bill from Maspeth
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=320914
It's an impostor.
BTW - Where can I find the SBK yard? I might be in the Bay Ridge area on Sunday and I might want to take a look if the trains are still there. Thxz
SBK Yard is located at 2nd Avenue and 38th Street, but the trackage goes down to 1st Avenue in the 40's. The access to the TA ROW via the West End is thru Costco on 2nd-3rd Avenues bordering 39th and 38th Streets.
I've seen this from the BQE. Thanks for info ItalianGuyInSI
Where can I find the SBK yard? I might be in the Bay Ridge area on Sunday and I might want to take a look if the trains are still there.
Maybe BMTman can organize another Brooklyn Waterfront field trip through the area (when the weather gets (MUCH) warmer)! I know that I'd like to go there again.
My pleasure.
After a afternoon of MU fannin', treat yourself to great food at the many sandwich shops under the Gowanus' shadows on 3rd Avenue in the 30s and 40s.
Actually, after touring the area, it off to Mambo Italiano on 3rd Ave between 80th and 90 streets. But thanks for the tip.
Yeah, I assume the number is faked for whatever reason...
BMTman
This is an impostor of a car numbered 9306, but it is really an R-21 in disguise. It called Corona Yard home for a number of years.
You spotted two other cars there in MOW Paint? They must be the R-22 Work Motors recently retired from service on the Signal Dolly, G7420 and G7460 (HELLO DOLLY).
If Engine Brake is reading this, perhaps he can confirm these motors have left 207th St Yard.
I thought these were getting reefed (supposedly)? Someone in Transit going back to old fashioned scrapping?
-Stef
Maybe they could with the 21 and 22's..........
Stuart, RLine86Man
Stef, either that or maybe those cars are there for asbestos abatement for resale to a private party (or organization)???
Even though we ALL thought that these cars were being readied for 'Davy Jones Locker'.
BMTman
Still there. That picture taken of the last barge shows them clearly in the picture. Last I heard, the rider cars, and older scrap cars will be signed off to reefing. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the current number of 900 cars goes up, as NY is one of the last states in the contract to get the reefs. The MTA will probably get Pataki to sign off on dumping all the TA can provide. After all, they can get him to screw us on Pension Refund monies.
Yeah, King George can spray paint a little memo outside the first car he ceremoniously pushes off the barge and into the waters off NY State proclaiming: "Here ye, here ye, TWU'ers. I hereby sink these cars as a sign of your sunken pension contributions." The 9,000 individual names ought to be inscribed among the cars.
Perhaps we can take the WF cars and repaint State of Sonny and Willie, complete with portraits. Or handcuff the crooks to straphanger's poles.
I thought the R-33WF #9306 was a permanent exhibit at the transit museum.
#3 West End Jeff
Read back on the posts. There's a bogus 9306 going to scrap.
-Stef
Which car bore the 9306 No. plate?
#3 West End Jeff
An R-21 painted in Redbird Colors. Bill from Maspeth says it's #7261.
As for the real 9306, it still resides at Court St.
-Stef
the imposter car # 9306 is a WH R 21 former # is 7261.
They really should hold onto the bogus 9306. How many other R21's were painted in Redbird colors? Does the TA already have an R21 at the Transit Museum. 7261 has a pretty interesting history masquerading as a single R33. Was it ever run in service after being painted into Redbird colors?
Not that particular car. The only R-21 to ever run after the anti-graffiti car program began was Car 7075, but it was painted green. The R-17s which were not GOHed, were painted in Redbird Paint.
-Stef
I should say that 7075 was cleaned up while other R-21s/22s continued to wear the splatter of vandalism.
-Stef
It is always interesting when you hear false rumors about certain subway cars. If I saw a car with #9306 on its number plate and painted in the "Redbird" scheme I would get a little suspicious that it is a bogus number since I know that the real car #9306 sits in the transit museum in its original paint scheme nicely preserved I must add.
#3 West End Jeff
Plus AFAIK the real 9306 is not operable. Not by itself, anyway.
I think that you're correct in saying that the real car #9306 is not in operable condition.
#3 West End Jeff
It isn't. That's been verified by the Transit Museum page on this site with an entry for this CORRECT car. Although it's a shame...
Stuart, RLine86Man
It would be great if car #9306 was operable. Then at least you can have a "World's Fair" car with original paint in running order.
#3 West End Jeff
AFAIK it's a matter of reinstalling whatever parts were cannibalized from it.
Could they DO that using "GWO [good working order]" parts from 36's that are being scrapped????????????????????????? (or could it be that 9306 requires...a mate? :) )
Stuart, RLine86Man
Car #9306 IS a single car. It doesnt need to be mated with another car in order for it to operate. It only needs a few good parts to restore it to working order. BTW All of the R-33WF (#9306-#9345) cars are single cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Okay....a teeeeeny widdle mistake.
Could it be "mated" with other cars in the museum fleet for a Nostaglia Special at some point, should it actually GET the parts it needs?
Stuart, RLine86Man
It probably could if it has the correct parts to make it operable. The other cars it could be mated to would be any of the SMEE R type cars from the R-10 to the R-42. It will also work with the R-62s/R-62As and perhaps the R-68/R-68As if they meet certain requirements.
#3 West End Jeff
Put it this way: they've got a ready-made four-car train of IRT R units at the Museum right now. All they would need to do is put back whatever parts were cannibalized and - presto! - one Nostalgia SMEE IRT train.
I believe they certainly COULD have done that, perhaps they could have even done that with parts picked from #9321, now gone to sea. Maybe they'll get them from the next R33 single to go.
And they should preserve at least ONE R21 - an unusual hybrid of R17 and R22.
wayne
Are there any in some yard somewhere???
Stuart, RLine86Man
Maybe if someone uses their head MAYBE they can cannibalize the parts from a deceased R-33WF and use them on R-33WF #9306.
#3 West End Jeff
I agree.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm traveling back to NYC in a few weeks for a railfanning weekend. I'm staying at the Intercontinental Barclay which looks pretty nice (on their website) since my old fave, the WTC Marriott is regrettably dust now.
Anyhow, my question is, how has the subway changed since 9/11. What's the busiest (weekend) platform (in terms of rail traffic) now? What new routes should I try out (The V, the 63rd street connector?) Whats the best (weekend) express now? What should I try to do that would be memorable this trip?
Thanks in advance.
No V on weekends.
63rd St connector is nice. The Roosevelt Island and 63rd/Lex stations, though not new, are very nice and now have predictable service via the F.
Since June 2001, there now is good service on Broadway in Manhattan, even on weekends, for the first time in over a decade. Of course, that comes at the expense of the 6th Ave express.
JRR4:
If you hadn't heard, the World Financial Center Marriott re-opened two weeks ago. They have a $105 weekend night promotional rate. The nearest subway stop (by foot) is Rector Street on the NandR.
I saw that. I didn't think I would enjoy being that close though. I got into the Barclay for 85.00 via Priceline. Seems like a good deal as its a **** hotel and just remodeled.
Wait a second, that's not the Marriot that was in between the two towers right?
You are correct sir, that Mariott is no more.
The one that was in between the towers was, naturally enough, the World TRADE Center Marriott. Todd's speaking of the World FINANCIAL Center Marriott (down the street).
Right, Dave. See the Getting Around Downtown map, and it will show you how it is just south of the frozen zone, between Albany and Carlisle Streets on West Street.
That's a great map, showing exactly the relation of the various Subway stations to the WTC. It's clear to see why the 1/9 line will have to be completely rebuilt while the N/R and E are back already.
Marriot between the towers is currently a pile of rubble.
1. What was the original idea of putting stripes beneath car numbers?
2. I know that this is still in use on the IRT for identifying yards the cars come from, but what about the variants of these stripes: double-width yellow stripes on some Westchester Yard Redbirds, white circles and some-color of diamond on some R62's, and the T's and O's on some R62A cars?
3. What is the original answer behind the fact that Corona has two stripes for it: yellow or black with purple diamond?
4. Were there any other marks (on the IRT) that identify what features a car may have?
5. What about the B division? Did stripes have the same purpose there as they did on the IRT? If so, what was the meaning of the B-division stripes?
6. I know that door-enablers were recently installed on some R42 cars, and they are identified by a red diamond. Were there any other marks (dots, diamonds, stripes, etc.) that were used in a similar manner as in Question 4?
I can answer the third question.
For Corona Yard cars, those with black stripes have Westinghouse motors, and those with yellow stripes have GE motors.
As for R62 cars, the dot stickers specifiy the location of the full-width cab.
Chaohwa
On the B division, the stripes, circles, etc were always used to indicate modifications where compatability issues might arise. Otherwise we don't need colored bars or dots to identify our cars.
I remember years back on the R-68 cars, some of them had red stripes under the car numbers at the ends with the full-width cabs, some had green stripes in the same places, and some had black and yellow squares under the car numbers on both ends. What specifically did each of those colors signify?
- Lyle Goldman
for anyone delayed on the N in astoria, the culprit was a door on an R68 car - the train was pulled out of service at 36th av because the door WOULD NOT CLOSE. even as the train left the station oos, the conductor was standing inside the train by the open door. I wonder if they had to go all the way to coney island with that door jammed open?
What'd they do AFTER going OOS to the door's sensors? Put the key in by the door's bottom (where there's the option to "On/Off/Cut-Out" the doors.) and cut-off the door's sensors so the C/R and T/O could get indication?
Stuart, RLine86Man
The T/O probably operted using the By-pass button
Depending on what had happened, the C/R likely had to protect the door all the way to Coney Island (and I'll bet it was cold, too). Sometimes, cutting the power from the operator will allow it to be closed manually. However, there are several things that could happen to prevent this:
Debris jammed into the lower track!
Upper door track dropped!
Door operator gearcase jammed.
In these cases, the C/R could likely not overcome the condition. More likely though, an RCI boarded the train, got the door closed & put the train back in service.
Amusing how some things never change ... and yes, I'd bet on the RCI as well. :)
perhaps, but it would have had to run at down to city hall with that door jammed before finding a layup track, unless an rci boarded in-route and got it shut as it moved!
I wonder if he used a ball peen hammer.:-)
Dunno how they work that thing these days, but normally an RCI would be stationed at major stops and would come along for the ride. Normally a little hammering here and there would get a balky door closed within a few stops, then you'd go back into service ...
Did any trains run center track while this delay was happening?
yeap, 1 N.
I hate when Things Like that Happen ,Had it Happen to me On the 5 line The track on top of the door snapped and the door wouldnt Budge .But the best part is when the RCI gets he looks at it and goes "Yeah its Broken".
>>RCI gets he looks at it and goes "Yeah its Broken".
That's why they make the big bucks.
awwwwwwww....... NOT AGAIN!
N Bwy Line
Does anybody have the north and south destination sign readings (listed from top to bottom as it appears on the outside) for the R40/40M/42 side signs? I've been always curious as to what all the readings were. Any info will be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance,
B63Mike
Does anyone know where I can get them, if nobody here has them?
B63Mike
Try eBay. They're constantly selling antique subway items. [and then some that AREN'T, but are advertised as such......so let us know if you find something....so we can validate it's authenticity, k? :) ]
Meeeeeeeeeerow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Acutally I'm not looking to buy them, I'm just curious as to what the readings are.
B63Mike
Oh. Ask Train Dude. Or, ummm....Kevin (a.k.a.: SelkirkTMO mon)...
Stuart, RLine86Man
Mike: The roll signs for the R-40/42 and 44 carried a route map on the inside. The outside reading left to right was north terminal,route letter,south terminal. Because it was impossible to have all possible routes on one sign cars were divided up into groups assigned to different lines. This caused havoc every time the cars were rerouted or re-assigned.
There are simply too many readings to type out. E-Mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Today because of the Pats victory the City of Boston decided to have a Pats day parade. However the MBTA was not ready to handle the mass exoudus of Pats fans into Boston. On the Orange Line at Sullivan Square from the mezzine at the turnstyles people waiting to go the platform it was that packed. By the time the trains reached the station they were at crush load no one could get on or off the train so approximately 2 trains went by before the sent an empty train from Wellington to service the people. A quick chat with the T/O revealed that no one wanted the overtime and they had only 1 extra train to handle the crouds other than that it was a daily schedule nothing special. Any other Boston Subtalkers had a simular experience today please post or E Mail me thanks Stevie
In other words, the Orange Line today looked like the Green Line every day :)
Stevie, I'll back you 100% on that one. I left my office in Cambridge today to catch the 4:40 commuter rail train from North Station to Lowell. Usually, this train is one of the least crowded rush hour trains, as it's preceeded by one at 4:10, and followed by one at 5:10. It's a six-car consist, and you can almost always get a seat (though it's a middle if you get there just before departure).
I arrived at North Station early, 4:15. Pawing my way through the crowd, I heard the PA announcer say, "The 4:25 to Haverhill is full -- do no board. The next train is at 5:15." The Lowell train was already posted as departing from Track 3, so I shoved my way through the throngs, and found the train ALREADY packed, 25 minutes prior to departure. My friend Jay Marsden, conductor on this train (he has so much seniority, he's picked the same job 12 years in a row!), told me the only space left was in the 1st car's vestibule; the 4:10 departed full at 4:00. I squeezed in there (and so did he), and at 4:20, he gave the "Train 329, OK to go!" He said it was the first time in his 25+ years of conducting that he had intentionally left the terminal early on a revenue train. We had to hold for about ten minutes outside the station for the interlockings to be set for our trip, but then we started the run north. With very long dwell times at each stop, as passengers had a tough time getting out, the train eased back into its normal schedule.
Others on the train told me that some of the inbounds this morning filled at their first or second stop, and had to bypass all remaining inbound stations. The MBTA did run a few extras (one each on six of its 12 lines, I believe), but it was nowhere near what was required.
Stevie,
The Orange put out everything it had. They pulled inspectors off breaks and ran all sorts of RAD's (extras). One 17 year veteran said he had never seen the trains as packed. At one point, they shut down Haymarket Station for about an hour because they couldn't handle the crowds.
Most of the RADs ran light to the heaviest platform at that given moment. They short turned southbounds at Back Bay and northbounds at Wellington. At one point, the line to buy tokens at Forest Hills was all the way out to the busway. I got my 12 hours in today!
Although the system was overtaxed, there wasn't many problems. Service was slow and delayed. No real breakdowns, no broken or kicked out windows. A couple of minor fights and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Boston T Party. fights and rowdy kids are normal for the orange line i took it as a kid going to school in boston i was also around for when the celtics won in 86 and the t was just as bad.
Sunshine,
These weren't the local subway rats, this was the Foxboro tailgate crowd combined with cancelled classes for many colleges jocks and a City of Boston (and others) unofficial "skip" day. Kind of like "amateur" day on the subway!
Stevie,
I'm sorry you ran into so many problems today. Unfortunately, the MBTA can only handle so many crowds. In all fairness, you can never even get on the platforms on many lines an hour or two before the ticker-tape parades in NYC for the Yankees.
Just be glad its the Patriots that won. Bostonians will behave with a Pats, Celtics or Bruins Championship. But the city will burn down if you know who wins the world series! -Nick
Nick I didnt worry I jumped up front in the cab with the motorman and off I went. Stevie :)
Personally I kile the new ticket vending machines better then the old. The old ones were too differcult to use if its your first time.
Not only that, the old machines did not allow you to purchase tickets for trip between station other then for the one your at. Now I can purchase a ticket for my trip from Jamaica to PJ at Penn. Pretty neat.
Also the screens are touch screen which are much easier to use then the countless buttons on the old machines. Also the screen is much bigger so its easier to see.
Any info on when the new machines will be at Jamaica and at other
stations? So far I only see them at Penn. Is the screen LED, LCD or CRT?
They are at Grand Central as well as Penn Station
Mr rt__:^)
LED, LCD or CRT
The screen can't possibly be LED, do you even know what any of those things mean?
Yes, I do.
LED light emitting diode.
Why don't you just anwser the question?
There are LED screens, if you didn't know. They are used on large displays. I realize that it may seem unreasonable to use them on a display of that size but realize if I was wrong, I would like a explantion.
LED's used on large display panels are too big to be of use as a small display screen, but there are organic LED's (OLED) which are small, and poised to replace the LCD and CRT for small screens. They are used on a cellphone called Timeport by Samsung (blue and green text only), and a full color display screen (on a cellphone, also by Samsung) was displayed at the CES last month, and should appear in Japan this year and here next. The color is much crisper than anything, and the brightness is enough for daylight visiblity, and the viewing is the same at any angle. This will be great for all digital signs, (will be just as clear as a roller sign) and will even make for flexable screens and "electronic paper".
So this is brand new technology, and isn't popular or cheap enough to appear on an MTA vending machine.
Tell me more about OLEDs, with what are they made? Are the principles similar to regular LEDs?
I read something about this months ago. OLEDs are made from different types of polymers, depending on what color you want. Instead of a glass screen, they have a plastic one. This means that the srceens can be bent into any form. And yes, they are like regular LEDs in that only a small current is needed to light them up. OLEDs are essentially superior to everything else. They use less power than an equivalent sized LCD screen, will be a lot cheaper to produce, sharper and brighter picture, and can have larger screen areas. Because it bends, reseachers think they can be put into glasses, windshields and jet head up displays. Cool stuff.
This article from last year is still up
I've never seen a TVM, but I can help you. There is no such thing as a LED touch screen, LCD touch screens are usually small and are monochrome, used on copiers and other devices. If the screen was rounded, then it probably was a CRT. If it was flat screen, then it probably was a flat screen monitor. Plasma screens cost too much right now for that type of use. Did the screen make little waves when you touched it? If so, it was a flat screen. Otherwise, it was a CRT.
I like them, I now don't get asked if I'm on the right train when I hand a Jamaica to Penn ticket on the Flatbush train. I can now get a ticket that says Jamaica / Flatbush and not be intrupted in my reading (or foaming if the head car is open).
I have yet saw 3 of them at Penn Station. They look so easy to use! I would like to try it out since they look like MVM's.
This afternoon at about 2:30 p.m. I had the misfortune of riding a Manhattan-bound E train from Jamaica-Van Wyck to Chambers Street with one of the most incompetent conductors I have ever experienced. This gal made so many errors in her announcements that I actually lost track of them.
Among her most egregious errors were:
(1) Announcing at Roosevelt Avenue that transfers were available to the F, V and G - even though the G terminates at Court Square except for nights and weekends. The sign on the platform says so clearly.
(2) Announcing at Lex/53 that transfers were available to the 6 and F lines - even though the F now runs under 63rd Street and doesn't stop at Lex/53 anymore. She also made no mention of the V.
(3) Announcing from 50th Street until Canal Street that Canal Street would be the last stop - even though E trains are now terminating at Chambers Street. She even announced "Last Stop" when the doors opened at Canal. Fortunately, she was overriden by the T/O who informed her politely that the train would terminate at Chambers.
There were other, smaller errors, such as advising riders at 14th Street that transfers were available on the lower level to the A, C and L lines, when only the L line runs on the lower level.
It seemed to me that she was using an outdated route map or something.
Where do they GET these people, anyway?
I wonder if she had taken a looong vacation and still had an old route card in her jacket when she came back to work... "No thanks, I already have a route card!" Maybe she needs glasses too.
Of course this doesn't explain the "advising riders at 14th Street that transfers were available on the lower level to the A, C and L lines," Doesn't she know that the C runs on the same track that the E does?!?! Why the hell would it be on another level?
BRRRINNG! BRRRINNG! Is that the "clue phone" I hear ringing?
:)
JR
I neglected to mention that she also didn't announce the transfer to the R at Roosevelt Ave. Maybe she mistook the G for the R, I dunno.
Boy....good thing there wasn't a TSS at any of the major stations......or she woulda been FRIED BIG TYME!!!!!!!!!!! (Making all of those STUPID mistakes......geez....even ---I--- could do a better jawb than her!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
geez....even ---I--- could do a better jawb than her!
Even a tourist with da map coulda done a better jawb!
*lmfao*
She might've said something like "transfers are available to the A, C, and L on the lower level". Depending on how you read that, it could be read as all 3 are on the lower level, or just the L.
Just trying to be an optomist...oops, that was a bad pun.
OK, I'll accept that. But what about the others?????
Or "Transfers are available to the A across the platform, the C on this track, and the L on the lower level."
Usually here, conductors just say "transfer here for the L". They wouldn't mention the lines that run on the "same line" as that one.
For ex.
If one rides an R from 57 St., the conductor won't say "transfer here to the N or W" at every station until 34 St because the same trains run through the same station for a while.
It also takes common sense to be a conductor announcing stops.
If I were a C/R, I would not announce the C when I am doing the E except at 50th and Canal. On the downtown, I would also announce a transfer to the uptown C only at 50th or 42nd, and would always announce the "A Express" and its location before anything else. For example: "This is 42nd Street, transfer to the A express across the platform, also transfer to the 1, 2, 3, 7, N, Q, R, W, Shuttle to Grand Central and Port Authority Bus Terminal."
This is no big deal, but I am very used to hearing conductors saying the lettered routes first, before the numbered routes for some reason.
That is probably a thing of habit, I find on A division it is numbers first.
I just think that to announce which train is the express or local companion for the current route first is very good to do and to announce its location.
"This is 59th Street, transfer to the 6 local upstairs, also transfer to the N, R, W. Metrocard Transfer to the F at 63rd and Lexington also available."
If my grandmother told me, once, she told me 1,000 times, "Don't spend yer whole career on the IRT. You'll forget the rest of yer alphabet."
:0)
(the above is entirely fictional. Any resemblance to a real person is accidental, and I refuse to clean up the accident)
I bet all the confused passengers are asking the same thing at this moment. But this is nothing compared to the "Blind T/O" stories awhile back.
She may have been a new Conductor and came out of school car before the changes and had the former service changes stuck in her head.
While having the right announcements is always a nice touch, I'd wave the "gross incompetence flag" ONLY if she opened up on the wrong side or couldn't figure out which hole to put the key in. Maybe someone will fetch her a new sheet of cardboard and she'll be OK again. That was one of the nice things about the old days - no PA, no announcements to be made other than "everybody off - this train's BROKE." Heh.
>>I'd wave the "gross incompetence flag" ONLY if she opened up on the wrong side<<
That's happened before, which now is responsible for "enablers".
I saw this myself years ago on an northbound (N) train running express on Bway and entering Times Square. The doors opened on the wrong side and quickly closed. Passengers were hollering, HEY,HEY. Lucklily no one fell out. This has happened more than once, and gives a bad name for the good consciencious C/R's.
Bill "Newkirk"
MOO
Well yeah ... opening wrong sided would certainly qualify for the "egregious" level of malfeasance. Bad announcements, while unfortunate, certainly don't meet the level of "get this one off my railroad" incompetence ... I'd put dragging geese because you didn't look up there as well ... but bad announcements? I don't think so.
Does this happen if a C/R is in the wrong half-cab or is it some malfunction?
Enablers are part of the T/O's console........without having the correct side enabled, the doors WILL NAUGHT OPEN. The enablers are a, IMHO, VERY important safety feature.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Well, I heard once that an M train had the doors open on the wrong side at 36st. R40Ms and R42s do have the enablers, don't they? Does this mean that the entire train crew screwed up because you said "without having the correct side enabled, the doors WILL NAUGHT OPEN" so, the T/O enabled the wrong side, AND the C/R was in the wrong cab?
The enablers are rather new and not all the train's have them. You could also push the wrong button and have the C/R key the wrong side, no one is perfect.
Yep. And just 'cuz they're out in "circulation" (the enablers), doesn't mean they're in all da twains.....look at the new stickers...they've been out almost 2 weeks, and yet, only a VERY small handful of twains have 'em alweady.
Stuart, RLine86Man
They had them in June on the M, they aren't that new. The T/O hated them, said it was just one more thing to remember.
I know........................but havin' 'em again is like, strange.......
Stuart, RLine86Man
Only the R42s have the enabler.
Shawn.
Or "Everybody out and push!":-)
As much as I wanted to (especially on the bridge) operating rules prohibited such. Had to wait for a follower or a mighty diesel. :)
I agree it is a nice touch to make perfect announcements but you can get brain washed with old announcement.
Do they still hand you a cardboard sheet or is there a book containing the "sayings of chairman wow?" Back in the old days, it was a tattered sheet of cardboard ...
No the only thing on announcements a C/R is given is the blue book which tells you what to say during a delay. Some terminals may give you a route card. I only have 2 out of 7 route cards. I have a Skip Stop only card with running times from the No.1 Line and a full route card from No.2 Line.
Collect 'em all and save ... wow ... even back in the bad old days, we had cue cards. Only problem was the R1/9's didn't have a PA. When I'd get an occasional 32 though, it was PARTY TIME. :)
>>This gal made so many errors in her announcements that I actually lost track of them<<
If she's that bad, she should be a C/R on the 42nd St Shuttle. Only two stations, how can she go wrong ?
Bill "Newkirk"
42 Street shuttle is OPTO.
Is it OPTO?
I thought it had two T/O's, one at either end.
The one in front drives the train, the one in back serves as C/R. When they reverse, they switch roles.
Or maybe I'm mistaken...
That ("two-person OPTO") is only in the rush hours, if memory serves. The rest of the time, it's by-the-book OPTO.
David
I think its 2 person OPTO all the time. To have to switch ends on the shuttle is really pointless.
Can "2 person" and "OPTO" be used in the same phrase?
>>Can "2 person" and "OPTO" be used in the same phrase? <<
Perhaps TPTO is more on the ball.
But then you have the inevitable TA insiders' joke about TPTOing through the tulips, and the kind of stale humor the world needs to get rid of...
:-)
When the shuttle is in service there is always a crew of two both crew members happen to be in the title of Train Operator. OPTO, I don't think so since the non-Operating Train Operator (or is that Non-Train Operator) is doing the doors and passing buzzer signals to start.
Since both stops are terminals, they have to pass buzzer signals, can't just start on indication.
Yes, because I just did it. Doesn't the T/O who just operated open the doors when he arrives at the other end of 42nd Street?
Nope, 2 person OPTO on the TS Shuttle is full time.
Sounds almost like an oxymoron.
Dunno - maybe she'll announce Times Square as "42nd Street and Broadway," the way it was done before the Dual Contracts.
Dunno - maybe she'll announce Times Square as "42nd Street and Broadway," the way it was done before the Dual Contracts.
Or "Longacre Square."
HA!
Or "Next stop is 50th St." I wouldn't put it past someone like that.
That's when you'd need Tom Wilson in his Biff Tannen character rapping on her head and yelling, "Hel-LO! HELLO!! Anybody home? HUH?!? Think, lady, THINK!!!!"
If she's that bad, she should be a C/R on the 42nd St Shuttle. Only two stations, how can she go wrong ?
"Forty-second Street, Grand Square, transfers available to the J/M/Z!"
"Next stop is Times Central, transfers available to the G and Airtrain!"
:) JR
..."and the 2nd Avenue Line."
Talk about being in error.
Well on my train the C/R announced "last stop World Trade".
With all those mistakes and as a B Division T/O, she sounds like a perfect candidate for the R-143s once they get enough of them into service...
There are still C/R who are not "updated". On the IRT, pre 7/22 changes are still announced at Atlantic. The same goes for 14St-US ad 59St-Lex. I only heard the F transfer at 59St-Lex one time. It was mentioned as a regular transfer. Not even a Metrocard transfer. I use the A train two days a week, I always get this female C/R that when we get to Bway-Nassau, she announces the 2/3 as part of the transfer. But when we pull into Chambers, she announces the 1/2.......
No one is announcing MetroCard Transfers. I haven't heard a single one at 59/Lex, Lex/63, 23/Ely, or 45 Road.
Forgive me if this point has been made previously but I didn't read every posting in this thread. The errors, as stated, are regretable. They should not have occurred. But, in fairness, do you really think this rises to the level of "GROSS" incompetance? If so, how would you classify opening on the wrong side, or opening with the train not fully platformed or even opening while moving? In my opinion, the errors reported do not rise to the level of GROSS incompetence and the use of the term in this case was a little too critical.
I agree - it's not like they took the train full speed into a wall or something.
Unless the train derailed, that'd not be possible....can somebody say, "BIE?"
Stuart, RLine86Man
It has been indicated that some routes outside the Washington to Boston corridor would be retained. Which would these be? My guesses are they keep Keystone, Auto Train, Downeaster, San Juaquin, Pacific Coastliner, other CA services, and any service fully funded by a state (and Acela Express and Regional, obviously).
I hope they keep the Sunset Limited. I went on that about 5 years ago and it was one of the best and most memorable trips I'll probably ever take.
In the early 90's, Amtrak was ready to drop Keystone Service. After the partnership with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, ridership and service improved, somewhat. Amtrak may ask PA to pony up more cash, or to take over the line entirely, after which Amtrak could bid on the operating contract with PennDOT. Right now, for all intents and purposes, the Philadelphia-Harrisburg leg is subsidized by the New York-Philadelphia leg (maybe they make some back Philadelphia to Paoli). Perhaps if Pennsylvania expanded SEPTA's mandate to include Lancaster and Dauphin counties and took over the Keystone Line entirely, schedules, service and ridership would improve. It could return to the long-distance commuter status it had in the 1980's. On the other hand, I would hate to see the comfortable Amfleet II coaches replaced by commuter coaches, with their harsh, fluorescent interiors.
Philly -> Chicago "Freight" trains would stay as they make money. If worse came to worse PennDot would run them as going to chicago would be cheaper than terminating them at PBG (like the old Pennsylvanian did). Vermont service would stay as they are funded by VT. The Inland Route would probably be operated by ConnDot with some money kicked through from CT and MA to keep the through trains running.
The big problem w/ am Amtrak breakup is that Amtrak manages so many other rail services including but not limited to MBTA and Shore Line East.
I wouldn't count many services dead on arrival, yet. If would seem that many of the 'heartland' routes might be sacraficed. I don't think cash-cows like the AUTO-Trains would be touched.
Most pro-rail people advocating AMTRAK's demise, including the people who originally helped create AMTRAK, want the federal government to 100 percent support the ROWs with tax dollars, as they do the roads.
If this vision comes true, rail service would eventually exist wherever the private sector believes that passenger fares could cover the cost of buying, maintaining, and operating the cars, and selling tickes. The system would probably end up looking like the map of possible "high speed corridors."
WRITE your political representatives. Tell them what you want. A complete shutdown a month before a national election is sure defeat for some Conresspeople. The demographics of highest voter turnout and ATK long distance riding are the same older persons. (I will turn 58 this summer) Get out your pens (or keyboards)! As said by others this would be the first time since 1869 with no transcontinental rail service DO NOT SIT BACK AND LET THIS HAPPEN WITHOUT A LARGE FIGHT!
Amtrak's future depends wholly on what Congrees does in the federal budget. Amtrak has requested $1.2 billion in subsidies, finally dropping the fiction that long-distance trains can ever be profitable. As Amtrak's president said:
"Corporate profitability is not compatible with the operation of long-distance trains, which by their nature are and always will be unprofitable," Mr. Warrington said. "Policy makers need to decide what kind of passenger rail system America needs, how much the system requires in capital and operating support and how the government will pay for the system."
Don't count Amtrak out yet. There will be much political wrangling over its future in the months ahead.
Turning some of the operations over to the states makes sense, because if will force the Congressmen and Senators from low-population density states and the elected officials within those states to put up or shut up -- if they want their rail passenger service, they're going to have fund it as a pay-as-you-go system, and not skim money out of the bulk Amtrak subsidies that could be put to far better use elsewhere in the country.
Announcement of the day:
"This is Bethesda, doors open on the left. Attention customers, due to Metro's Capital Improvment program, the elevator at Medical Center is out of service. Shuttle service is available from Bethesda."
First time I have ever heard a T/O say "Capital Improvement". I have yet to hear MetroWorks, the name that appears on all the signs.
My train's follower was a 4 car train bound for Shady Grove.
WMATA needs to add info on the next train to the PIMS signs outside the faregates. I don't like hearing brake regenerators and having to guess which direction the train is going.
I rode the Bombardier version today, and I feel that the interior looked slightly different than the Kawasaki's I am more familiar with. Was it just the lack of artwork on the reverse of the display sign or posters next to the doors?
Are there any differences in the two models? Inquiring minds want to know.
There are PLENTY of differences.
1-All electronic signs are operated differently. Exterior side signs are of a different "make" and interior info signs are all mono-colored (RED), and "blink" rather than just change rapidly to the next "sign" (like the 142A).
2-The 142A has A/C vents by the storm doors on all of their cars---with the exception of the transverse cab doors on "A" units (those with cabs). 142's from Bomby don't have 'em.
3-The most obvious difference, of course is that the reverse side of the side LCD signs don't have any "official" artwerk like the 142A's have. And even they're getting new artwork, that depicts a huge whale or something...........I'm not that "artistic" to know what that's all about.
4-The strip maps on the 142A are transparent for the lights. The 142 strip maps are transLUCENT...
5-The Automated Announcement System on the 142A has two (but it sounds like THREE) distinct "voices", of course, seperately being male and female. The 142's that I've ridden on that were made by Bomby had ONE FEMALE voice for ALL of 'em announcements.
Stuart, RLine86Man
R142 have the male and female voices as well. The newer R142s have the artwork in them as well.
I just noticed today of all days...I rode 6535 and noticed it all.....but the rest of the differences (the A/C and LED signage [although the newer R142's also have the "new" green/red sign boards], etc.]
Stuart, RLine86 and 6Line33Man
The center storm door on the A-end of the A-cars have a metal border. On the Bombardier, the metal border is seperated into 3 parts, 2 side and a top. On the Kawasaki, it's 1 solid piece.
Both of the exterior signs are LCD (as opposed to LED, used by the 143), but on the Bombardier cars, the LCD characters look like they are made out of dots like an LED display. And the shape of the characters is a bit different.
Are you sure the interior signs are red only. Since they run on the #2, all you may see is red.
The strip maps can be swapped, so that is not unique to the cars. I guess they just made the maps for the #6 transparent, and the #2 translucent.
Another difference I have noticed is that on the Kawasaki cars, the ceiling space between the air vent and light is wide enough to hold another row of ads (I was wondering if that was what they were going to use that space for), while on Bombardier, it is narrower.
Isn't there a difference in some of the openable wall panels (smaller on one), or something?
Isn't there a difference in some of the openable wall panels (smaller on one), or something?
The Kawasaki cars have ads mounted on roughly 2'x2' swing-out panels for door access, like all the R series cars before it. The Bombardier cars have solid wall with small access panels next to the windows. There are also far fewer ads in the Bombardier cars.
Dan
In another post he stated that the R142 he was on was used for the 5 line as a test. Therefore, the 5 on the interior display would be green.
And it was. :) But the strip maps were still of the original (2) maps, of course.
Stuart, RLine86Man
The trucks on the 142's looks more like the traditional pre war style. The 142a's have a totally diferent look. The tractions on the 142's sing when they startup, the 142a's whine like a washine machine in a laundromat.
Yep.............that whine sounds a little bit like a very old Billy Joel (my fav. singer, btw) song--at the beginning anyway--called "Miami 2017 (Seen the Lights Go Down On B'way)" from the "Turnstiles" album [the one taken in the Astor Place (6) station of all places, too :)]
Stuart, RLine86Man
The Bombardiers have the speakers mounted in the center of the ceiling, the Kawasakis speakers are mounted on the curved side panel below the ceiling.
no difference .....both all styrofoam construction .....
lol!
Aw geez ... relax, bro ... next car order will be 100% adobe. :)
just ventin off some steam mad that i will not B dere' till dis--summer.
oh yea i use the adobe photoshop !!......lol.!!
thankz.
Heh. No, I mean adobe ... like the missions. Good enough for the southwest, good enough for railcars. Hell, the boids are 100% bondo now as it is ... and as we all know, BONDO is ADOBE for automobiles too. :)
Not to worry, the few redbirds that haven't turned to powder will be out there somewhere - after all, Bombardier still has a few of what Microsoft likes to refer to as "known issues" ... bring a can of RAID and get to ride the rotbirds wherever they've landed when you come out to play.
Do me one favor though in the interest of true history, zoom in tight on the anticlimbers, let a few go by on the platform and grab some honest video of where the walls meet the chassis as they roll by. You won't BELIEVE how bad the rot is ... seriously ... word ... bag it while you can, like taggings, it too is a part of subway history - how BAD the cars running right now truly are ... needs to be documented.
Did you ever see that SNL skit with the Adobe car? The seats conform to your body shape and if you get in a wreck, just mold the car back to normal!
Pretty much describes da boids and yeah ... heh. EXACTLY the visual I was trying to project. Car inspectors these days not only carry the trusty ball-pein, but a spatula too. :)
Maybe the NYCT should contract with Playdough. They could make whole cars with the Playdough Fun Factory.
There are some in the system that firmly believe Bombardier purchased the rights to the fun factory. When Bondo explodes, you'll know that the 142's have truly attained entropy. :)
I think the Bondo will survive long after the carbon steel is turned to mush. Perhaps a new fish life form may grow from it bringing about some new industry in the Atlantic. CI Peter
Golden-tailed Bondo bubblers? :)
How about the R62 series and R68 Series. I know some R78 series have sliding cab doors vs hinged cab doors but I am talking about mechanical differences.
Well, the fact that the R68 first series (just plain ol' R-68) was built by Westinghawse...and the supplemental series (a.k.a.: R-68Alpha) was built entirely by Kawasaki [yeah...the company that makes those NARLY jetskis!!]..........and there's this "WEIRD" sound that some of the R-68 (regular) make.....probably from the transformers....as far as the 62's go, the "original" series was made by Kawasaki [yeah, THEM again :)], and the "supplemental" series was made by Bombardier of Canada....other differences in the R-62 series: the original series was made into "married" pairs, while the R-62Alpha (supplemental) were made into SINGLE cars, much like ALL of the R-68 and 68Alphas, at first---although in the last 2 or 3 years, the MTA has been (slowly, I'll admit) recoupling them into 4 car sets, even numbers on cars 1 and 4, odd numbers on cars 2 and 3. (and 5 and 8, and 6 and 7)
Dunno if I missed anything........let me know.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Remember this. The R-44, 46, 68 and 68A use the even numbers as the operating (control) unit, and the odd numbers are trailers (non-operating). My favorite B division unit is the R68/68A, so I will show you how they team up the cars.
R-68's (2500-2915) run on the main lines starting as this example of this train.
2500-2501-2503-2502=2914-2915-2913-2912
2916-2924 are semi-coupled, (sometimes singles) and run on the Franklin Ave. shuttle as 2-car units.
R68A (5001-5200) would run like this:
5002-5001-5003-5004=5198-5197-5199-5200
Can someone correct me regarding the Franklin shuttle cars if I was wrong?
>>>My favorite B division unit is the R68/68A...<<<
SHHH, I agree with you but that's not a popular opinion around here. 8-).
Peace,
ANDEE
And some physical differences I've noticed:
Obviously the R62/R62A is built to A-division specs while the R68/R68A is built to 75-foot B-division specs. One thing that comes with that is that the R68 and R68A have the "conversational" type seating while the R62 and R62A have the side seating. But beyond that the shape is also somewhat different. The R62/R62A is essentially flat on the sides, kind of like a redbird, while the R68/R68A has rounded sides like every B-division car from the R40 on until the R143 (especially since the R44). Also, the R62/R62A have only two ridges under the side windows, creating sort of an uncolored "stripe" (a little like the R44 and R46, but somehow more pleasing to the eye) while the R68/R68A have three ridges, with one more or less in the center.
Uh...Not exactly what was asked for, but I felt like posting some observations. When I first started riding the subways I was trying to figure out whether they were the same thing, and that perhaps they were letting IRT stock on the BMT/IND. I figured it out soon enough.
I may be in the minority, but I LIKE that silver interior. I think it's cheery.
:-) Andrew
*grrr@scratched up silver interior*
The 62's are FLAT on da sides because if they wuz curved, they'd SCRATCH against the tunnel valls.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Good point. They could've made them narrower, but then that's less passenger space.
:-) Andrew
Play-Doh turns mushy when mixed with water, even after it hardens. My niece had gone through a ton of it already, I'm sure.
Some "F" conductors are still announcing the 63rd Street routing as if it were merely a detour ("This train will operate through the 63rd Street connection....") only for their specific trips. It's the NORMAL routing; shouldn't it be announced as such?
The signs on the V and F also intentionally say which tube they're going through, which I find odd. I guess in a few months when people get used to it, they'll stop mentioning it.
Last month a Russian homeless guy refused to get on the D at 145, he was waiting for a D to Coney Island and did not want to transfer.
Hmph.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Was he reeking of vodka?
Probably wuz, the stupid *beeping rapidly*
Stuart, RLine86Man
Are you from Russia?
DA!
Are you drunk yet?
da
*lmao*
Stuart, RLine86Man
I guess his train will come....in 3 years or so.
>>>Last month a Russian homeless guy refused to get on the D at 145, he was waiting for a D to Coney Island and did not want to transfer. <<<
He was still there when I went through there this AM. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
[The signs on the V and F also intentionally say which tube they're going through, which I find odd. I guess in a few months when people get used to it, they'll stop mentioning it.]
Then again, there was an E the other day signed as follows:
E
JAMAICA CTR
PARSONS/ARCHER
via 63 ST
QUEENS BL LCL
Of course, it was using 53rd Street and the Queens Blvd express track!
When the N started terminating at 86st, they made extra announcements about it for about a month. Even now, when we near New Utrecht, they still say that it will be terminating at 86st and for service to CI, transfer here to the W.
Let's not forget, and speaking as a conductor, NOT EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THE F LINE ROUTING HAS CHANGED!!! I frequently come across, during the space of my work day, people who STILL think that the F train runs via 53rd Street (asking if the F stops at Queens Plaza, 5th Avenue, Lex-53rd, etc.). I frequently correct them, and they (those who listen to the announcements) always thank me for giving them the proper information and appreciate it. So as for conductors announcing the F running via 63rd Street, we are merely doing our jobs as we are supposed to do. It's part of our duties to keep the public informed, and since not a lot of the public knows the changes fully, we are doing EXACTLY what we are supposed to do!! Don't knock us for doing our jobs as WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO THEM!! (Think about this next time you come across one of the conductors who do NO announcements, leaving you clueless as to what's going on!!)
Hi Folks,
Has anybody posted the car assignment spreadsheet info since the Dec. 16 changes? I'm almost ready to go to press with version 3.1 and I'd like to include the most up-to-date information with respect to car/yard/line assignments.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Peter,
Be advised of the track layout of Stillwell Av at the present time, notably track A.
Version 3 doesn't show this correctly, but track A becomes track E2 through an "S" Curve arrangement upon leaving the station (past 926 Ball). The switch from track C/E1 is in place but currently disconnected.
Regards,
Stef
P.S. You did extremely well with Version 3. Keep up the good work!
Be advised of the track layout of Stillwell Av at the present time, notably track A.
Version 3 doesn't show this correctly, but track A becomes track E2 through an "S" Curve arrangement upon leaving the station (past 926 Ball). The switch from track C/E1 is in place but currently disconnected.
P.S. You did extremely well with Version 3. Keep up the good work!
Hi Stef,
Thanks for the correction. I was relying on drawings for this one rather than personal observation. Just shows to go ya < grin >. Well, this has certainly delayed things a little bit for me since I likely won't have the time to go and look during daylight hours this week.
Actually, I'd like to know if any track changes are planned to the Stillwell terminal once all is said and done, or are they just going to put every track back the same as it was before. I've not seen any single-line contract drawings on this at all.
An thanks very much for your kind words--they're always deeply appreciated.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Your guess is as good as mine, but I believe the track arrangement may be the same as before at Stillwell, with the exception of a ninth track to be used for a Brighton Deadhead Moves to the yard. I don't know for sure and nothing is etched in stone. Take Care.
-Stef
Peter, The copy I have is too poor to scan. When I get back to work, hopefully some time this week, I'll try again to get a descent copy
Peter, The copy I have is too poor to scan. When I get back to work, hopefully some time this week, I'll try again to get a descent copy
OK Steve, Thanks...that's greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
I was talking to a crain opt. last night wheli sitting at East Broadway Station. He said that the TA is going to build the new 1/9 line. They are going to move it over and build a new South Ferry Ter. with a two track station. He sayed that since the street are already open that it's should be easy to do. The rpairs that are going on now are temp. It's good to see that the TA is going to do this in house, if this is true infomation.
Robert
None of that is true. The line is going to be rebuilt in place by one or more contractors.
David
I understand FEMA will allow only orginal layout and not allow anything that was different before 9-11.
Phil Hom
Wow!I read several responses and I was surprised at how much wrong, misinformed or rumored information creeps into Subtalk. First off, as far as I know(and I could be wrong but I tend to have an inside track if you pardon the pun because I work for the TA Engineering Dept)the reason that they are sticking with the original alignment of the 1/9 line is that they want to restore subway service down to the Ferry ASAP. This does not take much original engineering work, just dusting off some old blueprints, making some new ones and building the job. It really doesn't have much to do with FEMA since this job will be paid by insurance money. Second, the job will be done by a contractor and their subcontractors versus in house forces. They want this job to be done by Fall of 2002. The bid opening is scheduled for this Friday. The South Ferry station rehab along with the Cortlandt Steret station rehab are destined for a future contract. The Cortlandt street station redo will be done when they know what buildings, structures etc will lay above the new station complex. Incidentally one of the thoughts is to connect the various lines in the area via an underground moving walkway or some such. There were newspaper articles on this topic. Regarding the South Ferry station rehab, they are considering leaving the loop in place for its utility and constructing a three track terminal adjacent to the old South Ferry station which will be capable of berthing 10 car trains each.
Yes, I agree there is a great deal of misinformation out there.
Federal disaster money for publically owned infrastructure is NOT restricted to rebuilding exactly as it was before. Ditto for private insurance money. In fact, one can say the strings attached to such money forbid it to be used for such an exact replacement in that modern engineering, modern code standards, ADA requirements, etc, are to be used. The location of a rebuilt facility may also change greatly. And sometimes, they can just take the money and run, with no replacement being built.
As for changes at South Ferry, they've been talking about these for a good ten years, including a new Terminal. I don't know what they planned for Rector St., but obviously, this is the time to do whatever it is they need to (elevators at least).
If the MTA wanted to totally revamp the South Ferry line (by that I mean building a new alignment west of Greenwich Street, with new stops at Cortlandt, Rector, and a new larger South Ferry terminus) they would to put it in their network expansion plans like they did the 63rd Street extension. If the feds knew that the emergency money was going to be used for new construction projects they would pull the plug in a nanosecond (like they did Pataki when he went down to Washington asking for $54 million extra in aid).
You are correct in that modern codes and standards including the NFPA and ADA etc etc would have to be followed to re-build the line. Rector street will be rebuilt in kind (I have seen an option to connect IRT and BMT Rector Street stations via an underground passageway) however they will install a double crossover south of Rector Street to enable terminal operation.
Rest assured, this job has the highest priority now at the TA and everyone from the Governor on down the line is pushing this to get this done ASAP.
What do you mean Rector Street will be rebuilt? It may be renovated or elevators added, but it isn't actually damaged. You can walk around on the street above and everything there is fine.
Check out this month's "Transit Transit". They have a piece on the rebuilding project.
Check here for the broadcast schedule:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/trantran/showsch.htm
I always watch or tape the one on broadcast Ch 25 on Saturday since I don't have cable.
Hi again,
I haven't had the chance to use the Grand St. Shuttle since it started running to West 4th, so I'm hoping someone onboard can advise whether they're still using B4 track exclusively or also using B3 as well. I've heard conflicting reports, and unfortunately I won't have the chance to get down there before 3.1 goes to press.
Thanks as always...
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Well the Shuttle only operates on the Southbound tracks at Grand Street then once passing Broadway-Lafayette switches either to the Northbound tracks or stays on the Southbound Tracks to terminate at West 4th. They did this to run more trains per hour.
Robert:
They are NOT using the NB "Express" track through Broadway-Lafayette, its all gukked over.
I think they cross from SB to NB south of W4 and relay north of W4.
If I recall correctly it uses two 4-car sets of R-46s.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
From what I've seen so far, most trains switch to the northbound track
past Bway/Lafayette. Although I can't tell this is happening 24/7.
BTW, I live near the 2nd Ave. Stn. and I can't stand the way no one
seem to know which Northbound F/V would leave the station next.
The LED sign should have been "Next uptown train" instead of "F train"
and "V train". Currently there are two separate LED boards.
Now that I have to ride more often with my baby in his stroller,
it is really frustrating.
I have seen evidence of shuttles at W 4th coming in on the uptown express track and going out on the downtown. This agrees with their published schedule (updated in December) which says both of these events happen at the same time (by use of 2 trains).
If you track map is correct they must cross over to the Brooklyn bound track just west of Bway Lafayette and only use that track from there to Grand St.
I have seen evidence of shuttles at W 4th coming in on the uptown express track and going out on the downtown. This agrees with their published schedule (updated in December) which says both of these events happen at the same time (by use of 2 trains).
If you track map is correct they must cross over to the Brooklyn bound track just west of Bway Lafayette and only use that track from there to Grand St.
Thanks to everyone for clarifying this for me. I hope to have some time to personally check it out, however I'm right up against deadline for version 3.1 (it has to be at the printers Monday morning).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.1 AVAILABLE Feb. 14th (or earlier)!
I took the LIRR to Penn station today, which was a slow ride.
Penn station's Amtrak section was a zoo, on the top of the screen is a canceled Acela express. It's also a big hangout for the homeless, after seeing all them camped out in the restroom I decided to get outta there and head for the 8th ave line.
I took an A train which was packed, to 14th street where we caught up the an E.
It was a train of R32's and became quite empty after Canal except for two other guys at the front window and a few homeless on board. It was pretty depressing when we got to WTC. The few people that were on the train got off, a station that once teemed with people now empty.
It was dusty but did not smell.
The south exits to the street were open, and the mall entrance now boarded up guarded by a police officer.
Once you go up that stairs to the street, you are greeted by an empty space where WTC used to be. There's nothing left now, it is all gone. It looks like a work site now. What an empty feeling. You walk north along a pedestrian corridor, and I headed back east toward Broadway.
Downtown was a ghostown today except for the tourists taking pictures, of the site and the large memorial on Broadway.
Wendy's at lunch hour was empty, who'd know it was "lunch hour".
I have to say riding the subways today there were alot of homeless around, camping out in and around the stations. Perhaps more than I have ever seen. Guess it's a sign of the times.
Once you go up that stairs to the street, you are greeted by an empty space where WTC used to be. There's nothing left now, it is all gone. It looks like a work site now. What an empty feeling. You walk north along a pedestrian corridor, and I headed back east toward Broadway.
It's difficult to imagine that one of the world's biggest commercial complexes used to be there. I obviously know that the WTC used to be on that site, yet I find it increasingly difficult to visualize it the way it was less than six months ago.
"Downtown was a ghostown today except for the tourists taking pictures, of the site and the large memorial on Broadway."
Of course the immediate vicinity of the WTC is very deserted compared to its former self. But if you go east of Broadway you will hardly know that anything has changed. Wall Street at rush hour is packed with pedestrians, especially because they have closed part of the south sidewalk. Water Street is jammed with traffic and people. Chambers Street is very crowded again too, with the BMCC students back. Even the World Finanical Center is no longer deserted, though it has a long way to go before it is back to its previous density.
You guys are doing great. We now have several more nicknames for Fred's favorite line.
#4 Sea Bits
#4 Sea Breeze
#4 Slow Beach
#4 Sea Ditch
#4 Sea Bitch
#4 Sea Hag
#4 Sloth Beach
#4 Fred's Folly
#4 Sea Weed
Larry, That's all....NINE !
One more, make it an even TEN !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: Lets make it a Baker's Dozen. Tomorrow night we will begin a discussion of a proper Brooklyn Railroad aka the Brooklyn,Faltbush and Coney Island Railroad.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Now you've got your priorities straight.
Just keep them coming boys. The more you talk about it the more popular my favorite train becomes. We've sort of put the Frighten out to pasture lately.
How about some of these names for the Brighton.
The Frighten
The Unlighten
The Dullten
The Bruten
The Slighten
The Nighten
Bob's Bomb
Q's Queerton
Doug's Dugout
about as ridiculous as some of the ones you hung on my line.
>>How about some of these names for the Brighton.<
YAWN !
Bill "Newkirk"
Fred admits his 2nd favorite line was the Brighton because it went to Ebbets Field
Well, it would make a Brighton-Sea Beach debate aka shouting match that much more interesting.:-)
Fred, your jealousy of the Brighton has made you "mentally challenged".
Q = Queuing up. Riders on the Slow Beach never have to do so. There are simply not enough riders.
Q = Quick. As a Slow Beach fan, I'm that sounds queer to you.
Q = Quiet. Those R68s are quiet.
Q = Quality of service. Highest MDBF in the system, for both the R68s and the R40s.
Qapisce?
You can add "Sumbeach" ... moo. :)
#Foe C Beets
And for the other one:
Duh Bitin' Lion
Don't forget See (with an "e') Beech (misprouncination of B--ch)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hello Everyone, today in the Phila Daily news there was an article stating that Amtrak will probably axe the 3 Rivers and Pennsylvanian. Do you think thats possible? How would someone get from Phila to Chicago. Go all the way down to Washington and take the train outta there to Chicago? Or would i fly since it looks like thats what Congress wants us to do anyway. What does everyone think the out come will be?
(How would someone get from Phila to Chicago. Would i fly since it looks like thats what Congress wants us to do anyway. What does everyone think the out come will be?)
I expect that there will be no trains between the Midwest and the East Coast, because they take too long and don't pay. You'll get trains down the east coast, perhaps extending south to growing metros like Richmond, Charlotte, Atlanta, because you have a lot of dense areas in a row. You'll get something down the West Coast for the same reason. Eventually, you might get a bunch of Midwestern lines passing through Chicago like spokes on a wheel. That's about it.
Bring back the private carriers anyday
The whole reason we have ATK is that the privaes were failing. remember PennCentral? WRITE your Congress people early and often Tll them you want full multibillion funding for intercity rail service to continue and improve.
"I expect that there will be no trains between the Midwest and the East Coast, because they take too long and don't pay. You'll get trains down the east coast, perhaps extending south to growing metros like Richmond, Charlotte, Atlanta, because you have a lot of dense areas in a row."
Umm,
1) the trains between Chicago and the East serve Toledo, Cleveland, and then either Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and on by the Keystone Corridor or Erie, Buffalo, and on by the Empire Corridor. There's plenty of cities in fairly rapid succession along the Chicago-East Coast routes. The Cardinal is the big exception, and it runs thrice weekly.
2) The Silver trains take 29 hours between New York and Miami, and the Crescent roughly 18 hours from New York to Atlanta. The Capitol Limited takes about the same 18 hours between Chicago and Washington DC and the Lake Shore Limited takes 20 hours from Chicago to New York. How in the name of all the gods do you figure that the Chicago-East Coast trains take too long but the East Coast trains don't?!?!
As to the Chicago-East Coast routes not paying, tell me the profit the Federal Highway Administration declared last year and I'll drop my support for long-distance trains.
Part of the difference I think is in perception. The Florida routes tend to cater to more people either on vacation with Central/South Florida as their destination or retirees who have more free time to spare. East Coast-Midwest trips also have some vacationers, but in general the bulk of that traffic is more business-oriented, where time becomes more of a factor.
If the states and federal government could ever get together on a dedicated high-speed line between the East Coast and Midwest similar to the trains in Europe and Japan, that might be able to lure some business traffic away, but the current time schedules don't work to the trains' advantage.
I go to NY Penn often anjd sometimes Newark Penn. I alwasy check the arrivals boardas well as departures board since once can and often causeas problems for the other. Many times I see the Three Rivers running 5-6 and more hours late. I have kidded that the three rivers are the Nile, Danube and the Yanghtze.
The problem w/ the 3 Rivers is CSX and its hopelessly jammed main line through Ohio. The Pennsylvanian usually runs 100% on time on virtually the same route. The only differance is that it runs on NS trackage and is carrying NS (JB Hunt) intermodal trailers. NS gives the train what they should, priority over regular NS freights. Norfolk Southern is doing its best t act in the spirit of Conrail. CSX is a bunch of wankers that coudln't run a train into a hole in the Earth. Did you know that some CSX intermodal trains average 22 mph?
Cannot Sustain eXcellence
<< If the states and federal government could ever get together on a dedicated high-speed line between the East Coast and Midwest similar to the trains in Europe and Japan, that might be able to lure some business traffic away, but the current time schedules don't work to the trains' advantage. >>
I doubt you'll ever see a sigificant amount of business traffic on a Chicago- NYP run, even if they do upgrade the line to 125 standards. It would still take too darn long. A business person can fly to ORD in the a.m. and back to LGA in the evening, making a (long) one-day trip. Ain't gonna happen by train and with more and more businesses reducing costs by mandating one-day trips to save money on hotels and meals, the impetus is to get-'em-in-and-get-'em-back ASAP.
I heard that the Pennsylvanian turns a profit as it is basically a Norfolk Southern intermodal train that passes itself off as a passenger train. Anyway, PennDoT should fund the Pennsylvanian through to Pittsburgh like they used to go back before it became a freight train.
I guess that means Keystone service from NY, Philly, and Harrisburg will be axed, too. With the Pennsylvanian and three rivers going out, This will kill all the service to Harrisburg's beautiful 160 year old train station. What a shame!!
"I guess that means Keystone service from NY, Philly, and Harrisburg will be axed, too."
No, it doesn't. Amtrak specifically excluded state-financed routes from those subject to termination if they don't get the $1.2 billion. As long as PennDOT keeps coughing up the money, Amtrak will keep running the Keystone trains.
(laughs like beavis and butthead) huh huh huh.....score..... :)
?????
I dont think they will axe the Silver Service.Those trains are always SOLD OUT in the summer,and i have even seen AMTRAK add cars during peak tourism seasons.Same with the Twilight Shoreliner, its very hard to get a seat on that train.
Ummm ... this is POLITICS, not logic ... never make the mistake of trying to apply logic to anything trotted out by the elected ... it's all posturing and baboon rituals ... gets worse when there's cameras.
I agree. AMTRAK is talking about cutting servive in Oct if they don't get $$$$ from the goverment. I think by Oct they will get some money but not cut service like they threaten to. And maybe new management at AMTRAK will take over so maybe they'll be able to do more with less.
Wishful thinking but one can hope!
Congress made the mess, congress won't clean up the mess, time to clean up congress ... November's coming ... make it MEAN something.
September 25,1876 New York & Sea Beach Railroad Company founded.
July 17,1877 Trains started running from Bath Junction (62 St-New Utrecht) to Sea Beach Palace.(Surf Av btwn W 8 and W 11 Sts).
September 1,1877 service discontinued
July 17,1879 Service resumes with trains operating between Bay Ridge (65 Street Dock) and Coney Island during summer only
1882 double track from Bay Ridge to 86 Street
May 12,1883 Reorganized as New York & Sea Beach Railway Compnay
Summer 1884 All year service
1885 entire line double track
August 29,1896 reorganized as Sea Beach Railway Company
November 5,1897 Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company secures control of Sea Beach Railway and leases it to Brooklyn Heights Railroad Company
May 20,1898 electric trains begin running
1898 3 Avenue,Court St and 5 Avenue trolleys start running from Park Row to Coney Island
Trains run from 65 St Dock to Coney Island
1903 Through service between Park Row and Coney Island via 5 Av El and West End Line to Bath Junction then on Sea Beach to Coney.
1906 Terminal relocated from 65 Street Dock to 63 Street Dock
February 28,1907 Lease of SB to BHRR canceled
1907 probably discontinued trolley service. Discontinued service to Sea Beach Palace and extended to West End Terminal via ROW north of Surf Avenue
October 2,1908 Re-located to present ROW between 86 Street and West End Terminal
November 30,1912 Sea Beach Railway, Canarsie Railroad and Brooklyn Union Elevated Railroad consolidated as New York Consolidated Railroad Company
This is from an excerpt from an article in the Bulletin of the New York Division ERA taken from the Edward B Watson and Arthur J Lonto Collection.
Hope you like it Fred,
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank you sir. But to me the red letter day is June 22, 1915 when the Sea Beach Express made its first run on the new Standards.
Of course, Sea Beach trains went only as far as Chambers St. originally, using the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. The Broadway line opened later, piecemeal.
In response to some question about sidings on the Sea Beach Line I came accross the following. Rubel Ice Company siding located between New Utrecht and 18 Avenue connecting to northbound local track removed 1930's. Huber Ice Company siding located west of 8 Avenue and connecting to northbound local removed June 1953.
At least the Franklin had a siding to a brewery.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You could write a book, Larry. Several books, for that matter.
Thanks Steve: Maybe if I ever learn how to fully use this computer I'll do that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, the Franklin had sidings to TWO breweries: (1) Consumer's Park and (2) Nassau Brewing (an early version of Budweiser). The Nassau Brewing facility later became a Heinz packageing plant (as in 57 Varieties).
Unfortunately, I do not believe Heinz was served by BRT rail freight.
BMTman
Doug: The sidings on the Brighton were always more interesting then those on the Sea Beach. In addition to the two that went to the "Suds Factories" that you mentioned they also had one to the racetrack.
You could lose your savings in one siding and drown your sorrows in another.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Good Point! LOL!
Other than that TriRail, what trains/subways are there in Florida? Are they worth riding?
Thanks, in advance.
Miami Metrorail and MetroMover -- neither goes below ground, but both should be ridden at least once.
David
Jacksonville elevated monorail. This webpage has a description under US transit cities. This is built over the MATRA people mover.
Opening soon: Tampa's "TECO Line" Streetcar. More info here:
http://www.hartline.org/news/new_events/streetcar/index.htm
I was in Ybor City a couple of weeks ago, the tracks look like they were all in place, they were just putting up the overhead wires.
I know they are on the R142s, not the point. In June, while going fanning with Trevor on a R142A, I peeled off one of these stickers that had a barcode on it with the car number. I put it on my backpack and carried it around. The car was 7360, now, 7360 has 2 stickers, where they are supposed to go. I thought these stickers are for delivery purposes, and used at the plant for some reason. Are these stickers maintained and used by the MTA? If so, what purpose do they serve?
Tsk Tsk Tsk
When they built the DeKalb Avenue subway station, why did they make the B/W line skip this stop?Is there any special reason why they had to do that?
There are six tracks but only two platforms. If they were to have another platform, they would have had to double-deck the station, a la W4.
I think his question was why build the 2 extra tracks in the first place.
There are 6 tracks coming in from 2 different sources (4th Ave and Brighton). There are six tracks out (4 manh bridge and 2 tunnel). If you only had 4 in the station you would have a real bottleneck. As it was originally built, it was a bottleneck with all the switching, and would have been even worse with only 4 tracks.
Just call it a local 4th Ave stop with Pacific as the next express stop >G<.
No joke, that's true. DeKalb was considered a local stop on the Fourth Avenue Line.
The layout of DeKalb Ave station is a relic of a half-built line, changed in mid-construction, much like the never-completed lower level of the BMT City Hall station.
The original plan for the BMT Fourth Ave. subway was a four track line from Bay Ridge to the Manhattan Bridge. In fact, the two-track section south of 59th St was built under half of Fourth Ave to leave room for the other two tracks.
Under the plan, 59th St, 36th St, and Pacific St were to be express stations, and DeKalb Ave and Myrtle Ave were to be local stations. The connections to the Brighton line and the Montague St. tunnel were not part of the plans. When they were added to the plans, the partially completed DeKalb Ave station was modified, resulting in the arrangement with the bypass tracks that survives to this day.
-- Ed Sachs
IIRC DeKalb was originally planed as a four-track local stop with side platforms. The outer tracks were added and the platforms became island platforms. I'm not sure if construction had already begun when it was decided to add the outer tracks.
The 4th Ave. express tracks lead directly to the DeKalb bypass tracks which in turn lead to the Manhattan Bridge. No passing Go, no collecting $200. Since the B/W already runs express and uses the bridge, keeping it on the bypass tracks tracks eliminates the need for switching in order to stop at DeKalb, thus reducing delays.
There's a nice write-up about the efforts to build the trolley line in Red Hook, Brooklyn. Click here.
The article contradicts itself though. In the beginning, it states that 1.7 miles of track have been constructed, but at the end it says that several hundred feet have been put down. Anyone know which statement is correct?
I hope they can resolve the funding issue soon. It sounds like a fun project.
Happy reading!
JR
Aggh, this has already been a thread... here.
For some reason I thought today was the 3rd, and only searched the lists for one day. Sorry.
:( JR
it states that 1.7 miles of track have been
constructed, but at the end it says that several hundred feet have been put down. Anyone know which statement is correct?
The latter statement is correct. 1.7 miles refers to the total
proposed length of the line.
My past visit a few months ago, the have track from the where the two fully restored cars are (allbeit the track and overhead is damaged at the pier) then along the water on private property up to a street (with overhead) most of the PCC's are stored under tarps (he has some more at the Navy Yard). Then the street was dug up for about 200-300 feet from the property line to the first corner and they had laid track but had not finished spiking it. The day we were there they were putting up wood fences to start breaking up the street to add almost a loop back to the pier.
Hope that is clear as mud.
SOME at the Navy Yard? Try like 8 or 9 as far as I remember from last Saturday.
There are 11 ex-Shaker PCC's in storage at the Navy Yard.
51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 60, 61, 62, 67, 68, and 69. 70, which the BHRA got running on 07/03/01, is in Red Hook undergoing restoration. All are ex-TCRT cars which are from the same St. Louis Car Co. order #1670 as 1-20 and 21-25 the Newark PCC's.
The three ex-Boston cars in Red Hook are 3303(inside the carbarn), 3299 and 3321. 3321 is the last trolley built by Pullman Standard at the old Osgood-Bradley plant in Woster, MA.
Just a tiny weeny nit to pick....those ex-Shaker cars were
not order 1670. They were from the 1947 order, SLCC#1660,
same as Newark 21-25. Newark 1-20 was order 1653 and 25-30
was 1670.
What became of the remainder of the 20 Shaker cars 51-70?
Shaker Heights #56 and #58 are owned by Vintage Electric Streetcar Company of Windber, PA. SHRT #63 is owned by Trolleyville, U.S.A. in Olmsted Falls, OH. Other than those cars, BHR owns all of the surviving Shaker Heights St. Louie PCC's.
Frank Hicks
66 is still on the GCRTA property, along with a Pullman, and Peter Witt #12. Maybe not for too long, GCRTA manager wants the "junk" off the property.
64 is missing from the list of the whereabouts of the ex-TCRT cars.
57, 59, and 65 were scrapped due to collision damage.
JeffH. -
Sorry about the order number mixup, I was doing it off of memory late at night, and I guess I remembered 1670. I have order 1660 documented in my files when I was doing my research for car body serial numbers (FYI there aren't any, just order & operator numbers like on #27).
The #1660 Cars were ordered Aug 45, dely Aug-Oct 47.
Jan
One teeny little boo-boo.
GCRTA 12 (nee SHRT 12, CIRR 1212, CRY 1212) is NOT a Peter Witt- it's a Center Door car. None of the "big" Witts (4000's) were saved, a real shame. I know of at least 4 museums that would almost sell their souls for a 4000 witt.
The last 4000's died in 1954, when Madison quit. The museum movement wasn't born or evolved enough to go after one.
Ok, it seems that everyone wants a piece of me for technicalities. Being a Cleveland fan, I should have known better. We call them 1200's too, but the series ran from 1100-1300 at CRwy.
There was a 4000 series car saved, but unfortunately not for long. It was stored in the backyard of a local railfan, and when it came time for it to be moved by crane years later, the thing disintergrated. Chalk up another one for Northern Ohio rust.
Too bad a 5000 series articulated wasn't saved either, but can you imagine trying to maintain that thing??
I hadn't realized that somebody tried to save a 4000, but I suspect what they got was an accident victim that had frame damage. CRry tended to go for outside storage (every barn had a yard outside, and a lot of stuff went ouside, so just sitting outside in a back yard should not have made too much of a difference. Either the car was a junker to begin with, or the rigger didn't know what he was doing.
Streetcars of the 1920's were pretty tough, especially if the car wasn't a lightweight. Frames, steel sides with riveted construction. Took lots of abuse.
Our (BSM) witt (Brill, 1930) was craned several times, stored outside at Lake Roland for 6 years, manhandled by industrial fork lifts at one storage location (the cars were shoehorned into a wharehouse down a 16 foot wide alley - twice!)
>>69. 70, which the BHRA got running on 07/03/01, is in Red Hook undergoing restoration.<<
I haven't been there as of late, but the when I was there last, one of the ose cars had the paint being stripped off and the old TCRT yellow was showing through. Was that yellow a NCL paint scheme ?
Jan, any more news to report about BHRA ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill,
The TCRT [yellow] was never a NCL property. The politicos of the
day screwed that up all by themselves and were indicted for same,
but by then the property was dismantled.
I know many condemn NCL, but look at Philly it was NCL prior to
SEPTA, then the street cars went down the scarp line. NCL maintained
what PRT built, where cost effective. They did it in St. Louis also.
-JohnS [Sparky]
SubTalk Alert !
My friend Sparky has found this site ... "oh no Mr Bill !"
Mr rt__:^)
Feh ... we'll take him in ... he'll never be the same. :)
1.7 is the goal. What they have is about four blocks worth of trackage that is going to be looped back to their headquarters on the Pier.
Hopefully, the original goal will be met at some point...
BMTman
Names of 18 Amtrak long-distance routes that could be cut in the fall, followed by the major cities they serve:
--Kentucky Cardinal: Louisville, Ky.-Chicago
--Cardinal: Washington-Cincinnati-Chicago
--Pennsylvanian: Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Chicago
--Silver Palm: New York-Savannah, Ga.-Tampa, Fla.-Miami
--Silver Star: New York-Savannah-Miami
--Silver Meteor: New York-Savannah-Miami
--Crescent: New York City-Atlanta-New Orleans
--Capitol Limited: Washington-Pittsburgh-Chicago
--Three Rivers: New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Chicago
--Twilight Shoreliner: Boston-Washington-Newport News, Va.
--Lake Shore Limited: Chicago-Boston/New York
--City of New Orleans: Chicago-Memphis, Tenn.-New Orleans
--Sunset Limited: Orlando, Fla.-New Orleans-Los Angeles
--Texas Eagle: Chicago-San Antonio
--California Zephyr: Chicago-Emeryville, Calif.
--Empire Builder: Chicago-Seattle/Portland, Ore.
--Southwest Chief: Chicago-Kansas City, Mo.-Los Angeles
--Coast Starlight: Seattle-Portland, Ore.-Los Angeles
No less than ten of those 18 routes terminate in Chicago. If the City of Chicago allows this to happen without putting up a huge fight, I will have lost all faith in this city.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, the speaker of the house, Dennis Hastert *IS* from Chicago so I'm sure this was all planned. After all, he seems to have had no problems with building a Tom DeLay airport in Enronville ... sheesh.
Hastert is from the suburbs of Chicago, which are a million miles away from Chicago politically. IIRC, he's also one of the Republican brass who's pushing for the Peotone Airport boondoggle. Go figure...
I have no idea what his personal stance is on passenger rail, but he wouldn't be the first Republican to throw his weight behind massive pork-barrel aviation or highway projects while telling Amtrak to drop dead in the name of fiscal responsibility.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Maybe the city could arrange for commuter trains from that suburb to be rerouted to Gary, Indiana perhaps. :)
What amuses me also is that none of the boondoggle new Amtrak routes in Texas (which has a four lane highway for each and every individual armadillo) are being cut ... maybe ChiTown needs to tell ole Hastert that Texas isn't his district either.
The two main routes through Texas are on Amtrak's "kill" list -- the Texas Eagle (which gets a partial subsidy from the state -- Amtrak wanted to kill it five years ago but Hutchison worked out a deal with Bush and Democratic Lt. Gov. Bob Bullock for the funding) and the Sunset Limited, which Amtrak wanted to reroute away from San Antonio to run through the Dallas-Ft. Worth area (more potential customers and they wanted to use Ft. Worth as a hub site for an expanded package express delivery service).
Bush's successor, Perry proposed creating new rail routes two weeks ago in the triangle between D-FW, Houston and San Antonio, along with paralell toll roads, at a total cost of $179 billion over 50 years. No word on how Amtrak's cuts might affect those plans.
Yeah, those "new routes" was what I meant ... maybe Tom DeLay will be opening up his pants early this Christmas and the new runs will be funded Enron style ... Chicago though is taking it in the ear from all directions. Maybe Phil Gramm's got some loose funny munny.
Considering DeLay's battles against the light rail line from the SW side of Houston to downtown, his latest stunt of diverting highway funds to help build a new aiport in Sugar Land (a SW Houston suburb) shows some amazing arrogance.
The light rail fight put Tom as the champion of the car owner, who doesn't give a damn about traveling to work with "other people" and wants his money spent on road improvements. This narrows DeLay's consituency service down to the people in his district who can afford their own private planes and don't want to have to trudge all the way up to Houston-Hobby Aiport (on the south side of town) or Bush Intercontinental (on the north side, and to be honest, I wouldn't want to drive from Sugar Land to BIA, given the nut jobs on the roads in Houston).
Must say, a LOT of big brass clangers among them Enron party boys. I don't want to keep turning this to politics, but politics is precisely what's screwing around with Amtrak and everything else. For a party that doesn't believe in government support for anything, this sure is mighty two-faced ... just like our own moron John Sweeney (R, Clifton Pork, NY) who scuttled a commuter rail line because it wouldn't be running in his district, instead it would have run in another district where it would have been USED. This is the same jerk who renamed the Saratoga National Cemetery after the porcine swine he replaced.
Really wish there was a third party to teach the other two a lesson.
John Sweeney (R, Clifton Pork, NY)
Appropriate. Sveeney means pigs in Russian.
This is the same jerk who renamed the Saratoga National Cemetery after the porcine swine he replaced.
My condolences to your district. You had a swine representing you in Congrefs, and then he gets replaced with some human jackass.
Heh. 'nuff said then. :)
In September we were planning to go to Phoenix AZ (Maricopa is the new stop outside Phoenix) on Amtrak.
Is that route on the chopping block?
Sounds like the "Southwest Chief" (or the "McCain fries") and that one's toast also. Maybe we taxpayers can get a refund for that station. :)
Yep. The Sunset Limited (or Texas Eagle, depending on what Amtrak timetable your pick up at what time of the year) is the route that stops in Maricopa (40 miles south of Phoenix) and it's among the long- distance routes on the chopping block.
Who would use an airport with "DELAY" in its name? (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
With Amtrak out of the picture, they could call it "Bendover International" and whatchagonnadoo? :)
Maybe they'll call it Enron International ... the route of the flying elephant ... but I'll bet Disney will sue.
And don't forget the old rail passenger station in Houston near DeLay's district is now part of ... Enron Field! How apprpriate is that? (though if Kenny Boy could have figured out a way to run trains on natural gas, Amtrak's funding probably would have had a lot more outside support over the last decade. Even the oil companies in Texas didn't like Enron, and that's really saying something...)
Heh. Fits together like "Wal*Mart apparel" ... Well, if these clowns get re-elected, we ain't ante'd up enough CASH for the opposition. I'll bet DeLay can be kicked out of office ... wonder how many of his constituents know how DEEPLY he was involved in Endrun? Whoop. I know folks in California would love to see the boy unseated ... Tom DeLay WAS the reason electric rates out there were what they will continue to be for quite some time ... politics is money and money is politics. Time for some of us to vote with our wallets ...
The great thing about Lay, Skilling, et al is that they played both sides of the political street, which means both sides get to bash them because each side has its own dirt -- the leading Democratic candidate for Gramm's Senate seat, Ken Benson was a big recipient of Enron $$$, but then so is his likely opponent, state AG John Cornyn.
Did Enron want the Bushies to adjust the energy policy their way and stay out of regulation? Yes because they were making a killing in the natural gas sales to California (El Paso Co. still is). Did Enron want the Clintonites to pass the Koyoto global warming treaty? Yes, not because Ken Lay is a closet Earth Firster, but because that would hit the oil companies to the benefit of natural gas companies like Enron (and unlike oil, which is dominatined by the foregin state-owned reserves like the Saudis, you can't supertanker natural gas over from the Middle East. So whoever controls the transmission and production contracts within the U.S. and Canada and cozies up to Mexico the best for pipeline transmission connections to their state-owned natural gas can reap a windfall, because there are no other sources. Guess what Enron tried to do over the past decade...)
Actually the big surprise is CANADA ... they've got QUITE the bit of gas and since Shrub is so Mexico-centric and snubbed Canada, Canada's been getting even by selling nat gas to the blue states for dirt cheap, even cheaper than Russian oil. Let's leave it alone. :)
[If the City of Chicago allows this to happen without putting up a huge fight, I will have lost all faith in this city.]
Umm.... Amtrak was created by the U.S. Congress, not the city of Chicago. Chicago isn't responsible for Amtrak and doesn't pay its operating costs, and thus should not get to govern it.
The last I heard, Chicago was part of the United States, and as such, elects several members of Congress. Politically, Chicago is not some backwater; it's leaders (starting with "Da Mare") are quite astute and I'm sure they won't be shy about making their views known.
Chicago isn't responsible for Amtrak and doesn't pay its operating costs, and thus should not get to govern it.
Regardless of whether or not Chicago has any direct control over Amtrak, Chicago remains the passenger railroad hub of the continent and has a huge stake in Amtrak's decisions. I think this gives us more than ample justification for having a say in Amtrak's affairs, the same way Chicago has a huge stake in the affairs of United and American Airlines. (No, Daley doesn't have any direct control over either airline, but he has no qualms about picking up the phone and making a few calls to those who do.) And even if Chicago doesn't directly control Amtrak, you can be certain there's enough powerful politicians on both sides of the aisle from Chicagoland who have an amazing knack for getting their way in Washington.
By your logic, New York would have no reason to object if the FAA suddenly decided to stop all international flights into JFK simply because they didn't feel the airlines were making enough of a profit. After all, the FAA is a federal body, not a municipal agency.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well ... does sound as though if Hastert gets his way, there'll be plenty of track for IRM to run fantrips on. Sounds like some boys need to go out and give that man a little talking to, no? :)
Has Hastern made any public declarations one way or the other about the future of Amtrak? On some issues, he hasn't been as knee-jerk right-wing as some of his GOP brethren... I could see him going either way.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yep ... he's sided with DeLay and McCain ... after all, as "speaker of da house" he could kill any such plans by not allowing it to come to a vote ... and with Amtrak tanking so close to election time, it could get amusing.
Coast Starlight is the biggest Long Distance Moneymaker. Try to get reservatoions in less then 2 weeks.
What is the actual significance of Chicago which makes it such a "big city" in the entire nation?
More than half of transcontinental railroads run through Chicago, and I heard that O'Hare is the busiest airport in the nation.
Is there some sort of attraction to this great city?
Let me explain the airport thing before David Cole jumps in :-)
United and American are the two largest airlines in the world, and they both have hubs at ORD. This is the reason that ORD is a major playa in the airline industry.
From about the 40s to 1998, ORD was the world's buiest in aircraft movments and passengers while ATL was 2nd during that time. ATL took over the passenger title in 1998 and the movment title in 1999. ORD got back the movement title in 2001 (because of increased use of commuter planes, ATL still had more mainline flights) while ATL still has the passenger title now.
The passenger title is more desirable anyway, because passengers spend money and planes just make noise and pollute.
As for the railroads, I'll let David tell you, he's an expert on anything Chicago.
United and American are the two largest airlines in the world, and they both have hubs at ORD. This is the reason that ORD is a major playa in the airline industry.
From about the 40s to 1998, ORD was the world's buiest in aircraft movments and passengers while ATL was 2nd during that time. ATL took over the passenger title in 1998 and the movment title in 1999. ORD got back the movement title in 2001 (because of increased use of commuter planes, ATL still had more mainline flights) while ATL still has the passenger title now.
And LaGuardia is the biggest airport in the nation in terms of O&D (origin and destination) traffic. ORD and ATL, and several others too, have more passengers per year, but many of their passengers are just making connections. Nearly everyone at LGA, in contrast, is beginning or ending a trip.
>>>And LaGuardia is the biggest airport in the nation in terms of O&D (origin and destination) traffic.<<<
I never knew that fact. Thanks for the education.
Peace,
ANDEE
What's "ORD"?
- Lyle Goldman
<< What's "ORD"? >>
The airport code for Chicago - OHare. Like "LGA" for LaGuardia.
The literal translation for ORD is Orchard Field. However, it's been some time since Chicago O'Hare International Airport ever went by the name Orchard Field.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Wait until he tries to figure out "MCO" for Orlando or "COV" for Cincinnati.
Wait until he tries to figure out "MCO" for Orlando or "COV" for Cincinnati.
MCO = McCoy Air Force Base, the original occupant of what's now Orlando International Airport.
CVG (not COV) = Covington Airport/Field/whatever, the original name for what's now Cincinnati International Airport, which is derived from its location in Covington, Kentucky.
Knoxville, TN ---TYS (Tyson Field)
In a nutshell: The shipping, railroads and airlines did not come to Chicago because Chicago was a major city. Chicago became a major city because the shipping, railroads, and airlines came here.
Early Chicago History 101:
The answer of Chicago's origins as a major transportation hub lies in in one of nature's great geological "mistakes": Two vast water systems that just barely touched each other. One system was the Great Lakes water system, connected to the Atlantic Ocean and stretching far into the interior of the continent. New Yorkers saw the potential of this system, and built the Erie Canal to serve as a more direct connection between the Great Lakes and the ocean, and of course NYC became a huge marine shipping port as a result. At one of the farthest inland points of the Great Lakes water system, a small, sluggish river twisted its way through the marshland and drained into Lake Michigan. This river would become known as the Chicago River.
The other water system was the Mississippi River system, with its large tributary rivers stretching far into the nation's vast prairies that would become our agricultural heartland. One of those tributaries would become known as the Illinois River, which itself had a tributary that would become known as the Des Plaines River.
As luck would have it, about six miles of swamp was the only thing seperating the Chicago and Des Plaines Rivers, and thus, these two massive water systems. That swamp was just a few miles southwest of present-day Chicago. It didn't take long for some enterprising settlers to realize the potential of building a navigable canal through this swamp, and they were right. Agricultural goods were collected from all over the nation's heartland, sent via barges to Chicago, loaded onto ships bound for New York, and sent all over the world from there. New Yorkers, in return, saw the potential for a great city at this location, and began investing huge amounts of speculative
In a nutshell: The shipping, railroads and airlines did not come to Chicago because Chicago was a major city. Chicago became (and remains) a major city because the shipping, railroads, and airlines came here.
The answer of Chicago's origins as a major transportation hub lies in in one of nature's great geological "mistakes": Two vast water systems that just barely touched each other. One system was the Great Lakes water system, connected to the Atlantic Ocean and stretching far into the interior of the continent. New Yorkers saw the potential of this system, and built the Erie Canal to serve as a more direct connection between the Great Lakes and the ocean, and of course NYC became a huge marine shipping port as a result, surpassing rivals Boston and Philadelphia because of this connection.
Meanwhile, at one of the farthest inland points of the Great Lakes water system, a small, sluggish river twisted its way through the marshland and drained into Lake Michigan. This river would later become known as the Chicago River.
The other water system was the Mississippi River system, with its large tributary rivers stretching far into the nation's vast prairies that would become our agricultural heartland. One of those tributaries would become known as the Illinois River, which itself had a tributary that would become known as the Des Plaines River.
As luck would have it, about six miles of swamp was the only thing seperating the Chicago and Des Plaines Rivers, and thus, these two massive water systems. That swamp was just a few miles southwest of present-day Chicago. It didn't take long for some enterprising settlers to realize the potential of building a navigable canal through this swamp, and they were right. Agricultural goods were collected from all over the nation's heartland, sent via barges to Chicago, loaded onto ships bound for New York, and sent all over the world from there. New Yorkers, in return, saw the potential for a great city at this location, and began investing huge amounts of speculative capital into building the young Chicago. It was the dot-com craze of the 19th Century.
Ironically, right around the time the canal was completed, a strange vehicle that ran on metal rails was being invented, a vehicle that had the potential to carry far more volume than the canal barges. By that time, Chicago was already established as a major transportation hub in the Midwest, (although other Midwestern river cities such as St. Louis, Pittsburg, and Cincinnati were far larger and more well-established than Chicago at the time), and Chicago was the natural choice for becoming a major railroad hub. This resulted in explosive growth of the city, rapidly surpassing its regional rivals and soon becoming the nation's second-largest city. For many years, the growth was so rapid that were was rampant speculation that Chicago would soon surpass New York as the nation's primary city. Obviously this never happened (in fact, Chicago later slipped to third-place in the wake of young upstart Los Angeles), but the fact that such a scenario was even taken seriously shows how much energy there was here a century ago.
Many years later, Chicago's position as a major shipping and railroad hub made it a natural choice to become a major aviation hub. And the rest, they say, is history...
For a much more in-depth look at Chicago's history, check out City of the Century: The Epic of Chicago and the Making of America by Donald Miller... This book is incredibly thorough, fills in many of the huge gaps I left out, and still manages to read better than most novels. I can't reccommend it highly enough.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks for the extensive info. Ive learned a lot. Thanks.
i rode 2 of those lines
--Southwest Chief: Chicago-Kansas City, Mo.-Los Angeles
-Lake Shore Limited: Chicago-Boston/New York
FROM NOW ON DRIVE---- GREYHOUND
........or fly ??.
!!!!!!
Whose list is that? Amtrak only says on their website that they must come up with a list by March 29, 2002 in order to abandon trains in the Fall.
Let's talk politics. If this is Amtrak's (or a "friend of Amtrak's" list) they would want to threaten to abandon trains with the most widespread impact, in order to get political support for more money.
Remember, though, that what is on the table now is not so much whether Amtrak will get dollars, but whether Amtrak will continue to be the agency to operate pasenger service, no matter what that service may look like. Amtrak may want to shift the debate to a mere money issue, which could avoid questions of restructuring. Do you have confidence that, the money issue notwithstanding, Amtrak is the most competent way to run rail service?
FWIW, I'm not arguing that it would be replaced by anything better, but I think something is going to have to give someplace.
The ridership on the aforementioned lines comes from many of the same states as the anti-rail congressmen; if this is indeed a threat that Amtrak intends to follow thru on then there could be major reprecussions come Election Day (when all their jobs are on the line whether or not they're for the war). With the black eye a lot of them have right now in light of the Enron mess they'd best not let Amtrak follow thru (this affects me personally; I'm usually a Silver Lines rider when visiting relatives).
That being said, a real look need to be taken at the way Amtrak runs rail service and the way states get them to run it. IMO, Amtrak is spread too thin having to run service too frequently on corridors like Chicago-Seattle/Portland or New York-Chicago via Buffalo when these routes would be better served with less trains per week or through agreements with the airlines like their deal with United. For example, the Lake Shore LTD runs thru areas already served by the Three Rivers, Capitol Limited, and International/VIA/Maple Leaf, and then is split at Albany for New York/Boston (a time consuming procedure). Maybe by adjusting service so that Empire service trains can run as far as Erie County, NY, improving frequencies on the Three Rivers, and offering a Maple Leaf run to Chicago via Canada & Michigan Amtrak could become more cost effective. Would a management structure change hurt, in addition?
"IMO, Amtrak is spread too thin having to run service too frequently on corridors like Chicago-Seattle/Portland or New York-Chicago via Buffalo when these routes would be better served with less trains per week"
Even less frequent than once a day?!?
"or through agreements with the airlines like their deal with United."
A fair amount of Amtrak ridership is to or from smaller communities that DON'T HAVE SCHEDULED AIR SERVICE, or what air service they have sucks, because they are considered by the airlines to be too small to be of any concern to them.
Long distance trains don't make a profit, but neither do the NEC trains, the highways, or the airlines. Amtrak, like NYCTA (to keep this on topic), has a mission or "business" of carrying PEOPLE, not making a PROFIT. And contrary to propaganda from people who likely have never rode a long distance train, trains like the Empire Builder and Southwest Chief and Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited are by no POSSIBLE definition empty or underused. In fact, the trains often sell out in the peak season and still seem pretty busy in the off-season. I personally have never rode a train that wasn't **at least** half full, and my travels have all been in the off season. At least one trip, I had to ride in coach because all the sleeper compartments were sold already.
I HIGHLY doubt all of those trains will fall, especially with Silver Service from New York to Miami. That's an Amtrak Cash Cow, and that train's sleepers always sell out way ahead of the travel day.
I also question West Coast service. Coast service between Los Angeles and San Diego is very popular.
"Popular" or even "sold out" does not mean cash cow. The Coast Starlight, for example, was a train praised by passengers for its friendly crews, special lounge and activities (like wine tastings) for first class passengers, on-board performers, and amazing scenery. But it is always late, and adding special amenities cost a lot of money. Even though passengers loved the trip and were willing to pay Amtrak's sky-high sleeper fares, it was one of the bigger money-losers in the system. I believe many or all of the special extras were cut in an effort to reduce losses on the route.
I'm surprised the Florida trains are on that list, considering how popular they are.
-Hank
No, the point is to threaten EVERY member of Congress whose constituents use trains. With a very few exceptions the current route structure is heavily used. As an example, the Portland to Spokane section of the Empire Builder even though its times at Spokane midnite and 2:30 AM runs quite full in my experience. My few trips south of DC on the 'Silver' routes have also been full trains no matter what season of day of the week.
i rode 2 of those lines
--Southwest Chief: Chicago-Kansas City, Mo.-Los Angeles
-Lake Shore Limited: Chicago-Boston/New York
FROM NOW ON DRIVE---- GREYHOUND
........or fly ??.
!!!!!!
Or just screw'em entirely ... my own attitude is "if I can't get there by rail, then I don't need to go there" ... no joke. I won't fly, I *will* drive but have the attention span of a 2 year old on the road and I *refuse* to ride a bus ...
So as far as I'm personally concerned, America is being taken away from me if Amtrak won't get me there. That's how I travel. Maybe seccessions from the United States might be in order for some localities. If a terrorist were to take over a locomotive, I would know how to separate the car I'm in from the rest of the train if need be. If they put it on the ground, chances are I'll live. Not so for gray running dogs or airyplanes. :)
I'm *VERY* angry about this Amtrak thing and I intend to volunteer for any politicians who are willing to stop this. Amtrak deserves the SAME subsidy as airlines or highways ... in fact they won't need that much. Amtrak should dump the glitter runs between Cowtown and Podunk to appease some porcine swine anointed in favor of allowing those lines that actually serve customers to continue. There's trains beind subsidized that maybe carry four or five customers per run. Buy them a damned limo ...
"Amtrak should dump the glitter runs between Cowtown and Podunk to appease some porcine swine anointed in favor of allowing those lines that actually serve customers to continue."
What trains would those be?!? IMHO, there aren't any trains like the Hilltopper anymore, but I could be wrong, so please NAME for us these trains that are empty of passenger and run solely at political request. You can't count state-financed trains, since those are fully paid for by the states involved (and are all fairly busy too). You also can't count the Lake Country Limited, since it doesn't exist anymore. :^)
New ones in Texas, new ones in KENTUCKY?!?! If it's paid for, that's one thing - if it's gerrymandered for a committee vote, those can be the first to be cut ... I'd rather what is got EXPANDED, but hey as much as I TRY to be properly delusional here, there are limits. :)
"New ones in Texas,"
I agree that the Texas governor's proposal is more than a little grandiose. But he's talking about a primarily STATE-financed capital improvement that includes roads and rail. I'm sure the governor's plan presumes SOME federal contribution, but IMHO, that is completely fair, since roads, airports, and urban transit are also built with a mix of federal, state, and local money and since presumably they won't be excluding non-Texan passengers and freight from using the trains. :^)
"new ones in KENTUCKY?!?!"
What, the Kentucky Cardinal? Maybe you disagree, but serving Louisville and hopefully Nashville by the end of the year, both of which are metro areas considerably over a million people, makes sense. Anyway, the KC wasn't created at political request but primarily to carry mail and express.
I won't argue with any run that's PAID for ... one way or an udder. Moo. After all, the Enron standard applies - if you can't sell enough tickets to a subsidiary in the Caymans and get back 6 cows, then the run gets yanked before those where the trains ARE paid for. But my main point is, why does Amtrak have to make a profit if the airlines don't? And how much IS that highway worth in terms of steel and wooden ties? My point is, trains should be encouraged where they aren't running NOW ... who knows? I might actually WANT to go to Charlotte on a train to get me some Bubba's Barbecue ... why ain't there a train that'll take me there? Or Peoria?
I pay taxes, I don't feel a DIME should go to the airlines. If we can have line item veto for da Prez, why can't I have a line item veto on my 1040? If we can feed Enron, we can certainly feed Amtrak ... and it's not like GE needs the money that could go to rails either ... or IBM or Continental Hairlines ...
"why does Amtrak have to make a profit if the airlines don't? And how much IS that highway worth in terms of steel and wooden ties? My point is, trains should be encouraged where they aren't running NOW ... who knows? I might actually WANT to go to Charlotte on a train to get me some Bubba's Barbecue ... why ain't there a train that'll take me there? Or Peoria?"
I agree with the above 100%. But it seemed before that you were arguing the opposite, that there is a whole slew of Amtrak routes that could be terminated because nobody rides them and they were created only for political reasons. I contend that there are NO such routes, that pretty much all the trains Amtrak runs are busy, and in the high season often sold out, and that therefore there are NO Amtrak routes to be cut, only routes and trains that should be added.
Heh. You should get to know me better. As far as I'm concerned, if bucks are tight, close the airports ... the terrorists WON the war there ... and there's nothing like a train even if you get to your destination at 3:35am ... the taxis know when it gets in. :)
But no, if the train doesn't go there, no point in ME going there.
Cars 6776-80 have arrived on the property. I wonder if 6771-75 are here too? The gaps are closing slowly, but there is still no sign of Cars 6566-6575.
-Stef
-Seeing your beloved car numbered 6688 (now a steel) wrongrailing against the normal flow of traffic (GO).
-9306 as a Redbird. Did 9306 lead a double life?
-Running a passenger train of R-62As (with the pax) over yard trackage
on what is NY's #1 Line (137th St Yard). Defies the laws of motion.
-Fish that became Passengers. They now ride the Redbirds daily.
From Delirious Stef
P.S. I am feeling a bit tired. I need to close my eyes and dream of little redbirds jumping over the fence. Lol....
sick
Counting Redbirds, eh?:-)
[-9306 as a Redbird. Did 9306 lead a double life?]
No, but there was an R21 that was called D9306 for a while.
Yeah...................and that R21 was "reconfigured" as a married pair mate to another AHRRR-Thirty-Six.
Stuart, RLine86Man
No. It was used a facility in Corona Yard for a number of years, but it never operated in passenger service with R-36s.
-Stef
Oh...mkay
Stuart, RLine86Man
right ??
i hope not !!!.........no .....lol ..!!!
no.
c on bro. help me out ......lol !!
The Redbirds will not be all gone. You will still have Redbirds on the Nos. 4,5,7 Line and maybe 1 or 2 on the No.2 Line.
The way things are looking, I doubt there will be any Redbirds on the 2 line when summer rolls around. The best chances are:
1. Flushing Line
2. Lex Express-Bronx Thru Express Dyre Ave Line
3. Lex Express-Jerome Ave Line
As of now, 40 Redbirds (4 ten car trainsets) are on reserve for the #2. CI Peter
This past week, all Ive been seeing is at least two sets in actual revenue service. Ill see whats poppin tomorrow.
If things get moving fast enough the "Redbirds" might all be gone by the beginning of the summer, or very few will be left.
#3 West End Jeff
WHEW !!!
omg ..........thankz.
To me, it seems that Bombardier (nee ADtranz, nee Westinghouse) has a monopoly over the people mover industry. Are there any other companies that make people mover systems? And where are some of the other systems at? Who made the system at Cinncinati/N Kentucky Airport that uses cars pulled by cords?
Here's a report on the current state of people movers.
http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/technology/apm/apmrev.html
Are there any other companies that make people mover systems?
Yes they are. In Fact here are two Manufacturers that I know of.
Poma otis
Doppelmayr Cable car
Just for old times sake!
http://capecodrails.railfan.net/budd/budd.html
IIRC, some of the major elevator manufacturers (Otis, Schindler, etc.) have or had divisions that built people-mover systems. I'm not sure offhand which ones still do, though.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Here's another example of the dissension that has prevented us from getting a 2nd Avenue Line for generations.
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/40741.htm
As much as I thought that he was an arrogant bastard, Robert Moses would've squashed this guy like a bug.
Robert Moses ruined everything. All of the current laws which allow a vocal minority to hold up a project for years in court is a backlash against Moses's pave everything policy. Hopefully the pendulum will swing back the other way soon, although with more sound policies like transit as opposed to highways.
Dissension has not killed the Second Avenue Line.
Grandious plans, no assured source of funding, and no real direction sd to why it should be built has been killing the Second Avenue Line. The Second Avenue Line has been the holy grail and the third rail of New York City transportation. It would be very interesting to see how much money has already been spent on the Second Avenue Subway and all we have from it is four short connecting tracks (two unused for passenger service) and one station, currently a dead end.
The writer was pointing out that, even if the emperor has some clothes, they're embarassingly skimpy.
The link:
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/40741.htm
I think Dennis Rivera and Local 1199 is killing the Second Avenue line, the schools, etc. All that debt that was run up in the good times didn't help either.
No good reason why we are the only rail transit system in the U.S. that can't do expansions.
The Rivera-Pataki health care deal is a financial time bomb. It's one more thing that will drive businesses out of this state. But nobody seems to care. Once the cigarette tax money isn't enough you know Rivera will be back in Albany demanding an income tax increase. I work in the telecom industry and we are in dire straits, maybe Pataki can throw a few billion at us too.
That one's voodoo economics on a scale that will pale Enron in the final tallying up ... in addition to sending cigarette smokers across the borders, drying up revenue there, there's also a brand new 6 percent TAX on nursing home care. We won't even bother to mention that Shrub told NY to "drop dead" on the medicaid funding increase from 50% to 53% ... Paturkey looked into Shrub's eyes and knew that this was a man to be trusted ... or so he says.
As far as most of us in this state that took the punch in the face for America (only to be slapped by our OWN) are concerned, we're screwed. Put a fork in Paturkey, he's done and hopefully so are a number of these Enron boys ... November will be here very soon. When the Taliban end up getting more cash than we did, something's SERIOUSLY wrong here.
So when someone says we can't afford the Second Avenue Subway, decent schools, new parks -- the things that everyone else gets -- just remember than it ain't because we don't pay taxes. And it ain't because people are on welfare (not anymore). And it ain't because our public employees get paid much (unless you are talking about those in the 'burbs).
Its because of all the special deals for the special people.
You're right about all those things, but we do have a lot MORE employees per capita than most other municipalities. We usually get services as a result, such as a fairly effective fire and police department (not perfect, but a lot better than most). But we do pay for them.
(You're right about all those things, but we do have a lot MORE employees per capita than most other municipalities.)
Wrong. According to the most recent Census of Governments (U.S. Census Bureau), NYC had more than the U.S. local government average (remember NYC is a municipality, county, school district etc. all in one) in just a few categories: police, correction, housing, hospitals, social services and (of course) mass transit. And remember, all that housing, health care and social services employment is in addition to publicly funded non-profiteers.
Other than that: local government employment per 100,000 residents: NYC 2,711, Downstate Suburbs 3,170, Upstate Metros 3,457, Rest of NY State (rural counties) 3,856, national average 2,936, New Jersey 2,905.
You can read all about it in my report on NYU's website: http://urban.nyu.edu. Click on research. My report is at the top. I think the Times may be doing a piece based on it next week.
Tony Coles:
"Though the project is important, there is little chance that it will be built in the foreseeable future...take the $200 milion that will be frittered away on plans and studies...of a subway line that's not going to happen anytime soon..."
The reason the 2nd Avenue is not going to happen soon, TONY, is because nobody seems to getting around to the business of shoveling earth and boring tunnels. Everyone from Bloomie & Pataki on down is saying, it'll never be built. The reason is that nobody is building it.
Dammit, I wish we had a Robert Moses of transit who would get a project rammed through, and the objections of the Tony Coles of the world would be proudly and correctly ignored. Moses built his beloved parkways & world's fair in the teeth of a depression
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bob was a tyrant, even LaGuardia had trouble roping him in. Too bad instead of TBTA and Parks honcho, had he helmed the BoT, we might have had a second IND system.
Any POST minion (and if you read that paper.....) who would think it would be prudent to invest money in a ferry system instead of heavy rail deserves to travel forevermore in a R62 sardine can. If Tony Coles believes it is more important to extend the IRT to the West Side than construct a full Second Avenue subway, let him put his idea on the ballot as a Public Question.
Where do you think the votes would go? Second Avenue or IRT extension?
Oh my goodness!
Where do you think the votes would go? Second Avenue or IRT extension?
When you are really NY, and you have to choose between you yourself and Marxist boys back then ... you wonder what the polics were where then too.
In the wake of 9/11, ferry serive is apparently the "hot" mode of transit for certain people in government circles, because it's seemingly quick and easy to institute. Of course, if Tony has his way and enough new services are built, it begs the question "How are all these people going to get down to the ferries, if you don't build any connecting mass transit lines?" Or is everybody now going to live at waterfront development sites in the outerboroughs and commute to their offices along West Street, 12th Aveune and the FDR Drive?
There's a reason why Robert Moses was so popular in the 1930s when he started building the Triborough system, and why the city undertook on its own construction of the Midtown and Brooklyn-Battery Tunnels -- People hated the ferry service. They hated the waits at the piers, they hated the efforts to get down to the piers, they hated waiting at the piers, especially in the winter.
Mr. Cole is touting a transit system that has got the "buzz" right now, because ferry service was needed when the WTC attack knocked out PATH service to lower Manhattan. But by saying New York doesn't need a Second Ave. subway and tossing out the word "ferry" as if it's some panacia, he comes off like the Tina Brown of mass transit columnists.
THANK YOU! If the ferries were such hot sheet, the LIRR would terminate in their old station in Sunnyside. The Jamaica/Broadway extension to the ferry would make a comeback and the Erie Lackamunny would still be rolling trains on the Jersey side of the shore.
I'm surprised our Fifth Columnist didn't mention the benefits of steamboat technology ... then again, the Post is steeped in that "let's bring America back to the kinder, gentler 1800's." :)
There's a reason why Robert Moses was so popular in the 1930s when he started building the Triborough system, and why the city undertook on its own construction of the Midtown and Brooklyn-Battery Tunnels -- People hated the ferry service. They hated the waits at the piers, they hated the efforts to get down to the piers, they hated waiting at the piers, especially in the winter.
Ferries to some extent were more convenient in the 1930's than they'd be today because there was more development in the immediate waterfront area. Today, except right in downtown Manhattan, ferries have to be combined with shuttle buses in order to make sense.
Good point. While the shorefront is the most logical location for the FDR and West Side Highways, it creates a barrier for pedestrians.
MATT-2AV
(*** WARNING! Angry Political Post ***)
I wouldn't wipe my arse with the New York Post, let alone quote from it.
See this editorial for what it really is: a poorly-written logical train wreck full of factual errors, meant to simultaneously inflame the usual targets of conservatism (namely liberal public transportation riders), while appeal to the what-about-me, angry, middle-class suburbanite commuters that constitute the core of the Post's readership.
Think about it. After riding in the back of a Ronkonkama branch MU for the past hour and a half to get to their pigeon hole, why wouldn't these pissed-off folks want a one-seat ride to Midtown East? They live out past the boondocks so they can have their house and two cars, so why would they have to ever step foot on the Lexington?
The Post is a tabloid, and it will always be. I keep asking myself if they've gotten out of bankruptcy... Although an important piece of Rupert Murdoch's right-wing media empire, lets not give this many any more credit than he doesn't already deserve.
Don't forget we live in the greatest City, State, and Country (in case you have forgotten, visual aides are listed below for your convenience). We'll get our Second Avenue Subway, and that right soon. If it really were impossibility, do you think these nebbishes would be howling? Tell 'em to go turn on FOX News! Meanwhile, I'm laughing out loud,
MATT-2AV
You have a right to your opinion of the Post. However, your optimism about the 2nd Avenue Line is misguided. This thing was planned back when Hylan was Mayor and has been funded three times. Still, nothing.
My guess is that it will never be built because there isn't enough political will to do it.
There's no such thing as misguided optimism.
Lots of transit ideas have been talked about, but never built. The Second Avenue Subway was just one part of the IND Second System. Does that mean that the only transit project that will be built is one that has never been previously discussed? Certainly not. By this logic, the extension of the Crosstown IRT would never be built as well. As I mentioned before, the presence of a lower level platform at 42nd Street on the Eight Avenue Line can be interprated as at least evidence that an extension had been considered by the IND builders.
The only reason the Second Avenue Subway has received the most rejection is because it was considered the most logical piece of the Second System to build. Take an example of two identical men at a dance. One man goes up to every woman and asks her to dance, but he is routinely rejected. Another man never leaves the wall. Before the dance is over, you might look at the guy actively out there getting rejection, and call him a loser. But who really is the less desirable person? The night is still young -- just because the Crosstown IRT extension hasn't been shot down and scuttled as often as the Second Avenue Subway doesn't mean it is the more desirable project.
Times change, and alot of people are taking advantage of September 11 to nay-say public expendiatures that they have always been opposed to. I think the claim that we all of a sudden now don't have the money is going to be a recurring theme throughout this decade.
MATT-2AV
"As I mentioned before, the presence of a lower level platform at 42nd Street on the Eight Avenue Line can be interprated as at least evidence that an extension had been considered by the IND builders."
You picked a poor example to demonstrate your point. The lower level of the 42/8 station does not appear to have been designed with any function other than blocking the extension of the IRT Flushing Line, whose tunnel ends right up against the outside walls of the lower level platform. More than one person on this site has theorized, logically in my opinion,that Hylan authorized construction of the LL platform to ensure that the IRT, which he despised along with the BRT/BMT, could not extend the Flushing line. As constructed, the LL platform has no obvious use.
Better examples of hoped-for extensions are the "Winfield Spur Line" Roosevelt Avenue station, the middle track of the Bedford/Nostrand Ave's station on the G line and the Canal Street turnout on the 8th Ave line.
"You picked a poor example to demonstrate your point."
Before you criticize my examples, you should at least read my posts. It's very foolish of you to do otherwise.
The very reason that I cited the presence of the lower level platform was to prove an extension of the Crosstown IRT had indeed been conceived in the past.
In other words, assuming that the IND builders placed the platform there to obstruct an extension, they would have had to have conceived extension the very extension as a possibility. So the idea of a Crosstown IRT extension has also been around for decades.
"Better examples of hoped-for extensions are the "Winfield Spur Line" Roosevelt Avenue station, the middle track of the Bedford/Nostrand Ave's station on the G line and the Canal Street turnout on the 8th Ave line."
Yes, they are all examples of planning for future expansion, but Bloomy isn't mentioning any of them -- he's talking about a Flushing Line extension, which we seem to both agree was at least conceptualized in the past.
MATT-2AV
Read Peter Rosa's response to my post. He says that no plans to extend that line ever existed.
The lower level of the 42/8 station does not appear to have been designed with any function other than blocking the extension of the IRT Flushing Line, whose tunnel ends right up against the outside walls of the lower level platform. More than one person on this site has theorized, logically in my opinion,that Hylan authorized construction of the LL platform to ensure that the IRT, which he despised along with the BRT/BMT, could not extend the Flushing line. As constructed, the LL platform has no obvious use.
Count me as a skeptic as far as that theory's concerned. There apparently were some operational advantages to the lower level platform, although they never proved as significant as hoped. Remember that the platform was in use for many years. In addition, unless I'm quite mistaken there never were any real plans to extend the Flushing line westward and hence nothing for IRT haters to block.
Beg to differ ... when I worked the IND, there were still a few of the original "old timers" still on the property who knew all about the whys and wherefors ... the LL at 42 was typical of an overall design concept of the IND and did NOT block the Flushing line from going under it. If anything, the nickel fare ensured that neither the IRT or the BMT could AFFORD to build.
The IND "philosophy" was that where more than one line MERGED, it was best to design platforming so that all trains, arriving on their line would immediately pull into a station. This was done at 145th St where the D and CC came in on a lower level and the Washington Heights line on the upper level. No trains stranded in the tunnel waiting for another train to clear. Same was done at West 4th, Hoyt-Schermerhorn and where the Queens line joined 8th Avenue at 42nd ... it was deliberately designed to speed trains and let gapping occur at platforms rather than in the tunnel leading to it.
Really, that's what I was told by people who were there since day one.
Is there any new news on the status and fate of the unique nine R/110Bs?
Were the three cars that were serving as fodder for the six car set
returned to a servicible state?
I hope so.
With the "300 ft. rule for C/Rs, could this train not employ the use of the T/O and C/R to open the doors?
At one time the IND trains of ten car length had two C/Rs . The first between the lead and second car, while the other C/R was between the ninth and last car.
With the T/O in the lead and the C/R in the seventh car, the contract should be satisfied. The T/O would also have to open doors.
Is such control possible? Legal as per labor contracts?
avid
I saw them last week chilling outside at 207St yard.
About 2 AM this morning I' got off the Q at Atlantic Ave head the N. While waiting for Manhattan bound N and reading my book. There was a worktrain slowly approaching into the W track and stop there. Within 15 min later, the worktrain sound it sharp blast horn that nearly gave me and others a heart attack.
The work train should sound its horn anytime it starts to move. When they were doing track work on the Brighton and the ballast train was dumping all you heard was "Toot" and "Toot Toot Toot" (or whateveer the backup signal is).
On work trains,usually two short blasts of the horn signal that the operating T/O acknowledges the forward move on request of the flagging T/O. Three blasts is for a reverse move.
Hmm, it was one blast for move in the direction of the engine. Then you heard the slack pick up and then the squeal of the brakes and the slack coming back. But my memory could be wrong.
Recently, I've noticed a good number of people live near the Brighton Beach Line (Q)/. I was wondering, each and everyone of yous.........where's your home station at??????
EX-Home station(s): Avenue U and Sheepshead Bay (before and after renovation of station houses)
Stuart, RLine86 and QLineSheepsheadBayMan
3rd Ave (L)
Not too far to Union Square or Astor Place
Sumner Ave (old Myrtle Ave el)
179th St, Main St. Flushing, Union Tpk-Kew Gardens
Neptune Ave-Van Sicklen
Sheepshead Bay Rd, Ave U.
Kings highway - Brighton Express
My home stations on the Brighton Line were:
Church Avenue (19 years)
Cortelyou Road (2 years)
Avenue U (2 years)
In the last two cases I hiked to Newkirk Avenue or Kings Highway when I didn't want to deal with the local.
Hmm. Paul, seems that you coulda been riding with Bill "Newkirk" and not been aware of it...
Elm Avenue, home of the big "V", Vitagraph Studio. (Avenue M)
I thought that was a subsidiary of NBC............rumor has it that they shot the Cosby Show there for their first year (if you watch their first year, you'll see that the kid's school looks amazingly like Murrow H.S. [my H.S., btw :)]) before shipping off for Kauffman Studios in Astoria.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I thought that was a subsidiary of NBC
No, but it's across the street from it.
Yes it's true, they used to do the Cosby show at the NBC Brooklyn studio, I've been to several tapings there. That was until there was a strike at NBC, after which the show was moved to Astoria.
Just the other night, there was a Seinfield episode where he speaks at his old JHS "Kennedy", but the exterior shot is that of Murrow.
Did you know that in Oct. of 1976 they did three episodes of Staurday Night Live (then called "NBC's Saturday Night") because the then new show got bumped from studio 8H for election coverage.
Chevy Chase's final show as a Not Ready for Prime Time player was shot in Brooklyn.
Wow............lol...... Rumor (mainly from my television production teacher from Murrow when I was still in the program there) has it that the sets are now used for some soap operas (titles unknown) now.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Just the other night, there was a Seinfield episode where he speaks at his old JHS "Kennedy", but the exterior shot is that of Murrow.
His High School was Kennedy (which in real life isn't in Queens but on the border between Manh and Bx). The Junior High School was "Edward R. Murrow Junior High School" and it was the exterior of Murrow.
I wonder: Did they use computers to add the name "junior" to the sign?
Yes, they did.........I saw the episode in question, too.
And NO, Murrow is NOT a J.H.S.!!!!
Murrow H.S., Class of '96
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yes, they did shot the original Cosby Show there. I had a friend who worked there as an NBC Page back then and he got me in the audience seats when they filmed the episode that had Dizzy Gilliespe as the guest star.
BMTman
That must have been something!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Pain in the ass is what it was! The kids kept blowing their lines and the taping took close to THREE hours for just a 1/2 hour worth of programming!
I told my friend if he had any more 'freebies' to sneak me in closer to closing time...man that was a loooooong night! (and I had to work the next day too!).
It was neat to see the Great Dizzy up close though...
BMTman
Not to romanticize the days of live television, but I'm sure the kids would have been more careful delivering their lines if they knew there was just one live take.
Quite probably....
Stuart, RLine86Man
Say, Paul. Since you and your bro have written quite abit about Vitagraph/NBC Studios, have you guys ever been in there to see a show?
BMTman
No, never. We just worshipped the smokestack from afar.
Well, maybe not too far. On certain nights in the late fall, by the dark of the moon... Never mind!
I remember going there in the mid 50s when NBC used to have their Max Lieberman s Specials
I thought that was a subsidiary of NBC
NBC didn't exist back when Vitagraph was alive. Nor did RCA (NBC parent until 1985 when GE bought it and sold off the RCA brand to BMG and Thomson SA).
I meant in more recent years.......since like '87-'88....since I had been hanging out in that 'hood, and stuff...
Stuart, RLine86Man
A recent episode of "Law & Order" was taped @ my HS; Bishop Ford in Widsor Terrace, Brooklyn. As an interesting aside, the school stands at 9th Avenue & 19th street, the site of a former NYCTA Trolley barn!
That is interesting....I still remember sometime last year when "Third Watch" taped 2 blocks from my house, I think right next to my Knights of Columbus council......god, I loved it.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Newkirk Ave -- since 1999.
Prior to that -- Carroll St on the F (`96-`99)
Prior to that -- Grand Army Plaza on the 2/3 (`95-`96)
Prior to that -- the CNJ , Reading, Lehigh Valley & NJ Transit (NJ 1962-95)
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
A former Brighton Boy: my home station was Parkside Ave. for 16 years.
BMTman
Heypaul lives by the Brighton line, too, IIRC.
Shhhhh ... he denies the Frankie's part of the line and therefore is a C-ditcher ... REAL Brighton boys KNOW that the right tunnel portal is haunted ... and LOVE it. Full speed ahead, Captain nemo ...
Mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Very astute observation...
77th Street on the R.
You're right next to me now.
My Current location: 86th Street on the (R)
Stuart, --R--Line86Man
Ah, another person here on the edge of the world...
*lmfao* Yep..........................................thatsa me :)
Mooooooooooo. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
1956-60 Vanderbilt Ave - Myrtle Ave 'MJ' though not called that then.
1960-90 18th Avenue - Culver Line 'D' to 1967, then 'F'.
1990-today New Dorp or Oakwood - SIR.
1986-1987 61-Woodside (I think)
1987-now Bay Parkway N --> Occasionally 71st W/M; Bay Parkway W/M
1993 - present Astoria Blvd Station(N)
1992 - 1993 145th Street Bwy #1 and #9 Station and A, B, C, and D 145th St. St. Nicholas Sation
1990 - 1992 Lefferts Blvd A Train Station and 121st Street J Train Station (LIRR RICHMOND HILL STATION)
1989 - 42nd Street Port Authority Station (AA) A, C (CC), E, K, N, Q, R, (B - D) 1, 2, 3, #7 lines (LIRR TERMINAL).
1985 - 1989 THORNWOOD STATION IN WESTCHESTER COUNTY Served by Metro Noth HARLEM LINE
1979 - 1984 157th Street Broadway Station #1 and 155 St. Nicholas Station served by (AA, B)
1972 - 1979 103rd Street Broadway Station #1 and 103rd St. CPW Sation served By (AA, B, CC lines)
N Broadway Line
Neck Road (on the Brighton Beach Line, of course).
But then again, I moved to Chicago in 1967 - pre-Chrystie St.
-- Ed Sachs
7th Ave.-Brighton Line
Forest Parkway (J)
Bayside, LIRR
formerly
Union T'p'ke
Guys he asked who lived on the Brighton Line at one station not then4th Ave or Jamaica Trains
Nope, you're wrong.
This is what he asked:
"I was wondering, each and everyone of yous.........where's your home station at??????"
He's right............ *lol*
But I did originally mean for the Brighton peeps, where their home station wuz/is. Worded the question wrong.
Stuart, RLine86Man
You've cut out some important stuff. This is what he said, in full:
"Recently, I've noticed a good number of people live near the Brighton Beach Line (Q)/. I was wondering, each and everyone of yous.........where's your home station at??????"
Also look at the subject heading.
Alan Glick
I was thinking that the first sentence did not necessarily change the second one, like in the following sentence, although the changeover is with the second comma:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Whatever.............people from outside the Brighton Line have already answered my question.........just drop the argument. Or I'll hafta get my gavel out.
Stuart, RLine86Man
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Everybody argues about the &^%%^$&#!! comma. The fact is, it's a simple printer's error:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and arm bears shall not be infringed.
Trust me, in decades in the printing industry, that's a pretty minor error.:)
*takes out gavel and pounds it loudly*
OKAY THAT'S FRIGGIN' ENOUGH!!!!!! JUST FRIGGIN' FORGET IT ALREADY!!!
*starts walking, mumbling obscenities*
Stuart, RLine86Man
the right of the people to keep and arm bears shall not be infringed.
This is SOUND POLICY! We need an army of fierce angry bears. Although I hear they get tired when fighting wars in the winter.
Oh, brotha *sigh*
I give up.
Stuart, RLine86Man
It gets worse ... when those phuckers break into the still out on the lower 40 and get a snootful, they drive around in humvees shooting up the neighborhood. Gets unbearable at times, especially when they lay in wait in the locomotive blind, waiting to stop a northbound CSX and loot the hunny tankers ...
Paul, you are a Mistro with the lingo....LOL!!!
HEY, I'm a poet and didn't know it.....
;-D
Of course no change or limitation exists in your example. The 1st clause merely sets forth the the need for the 2nd clause. The connection may be less clear in the post that started this thread.
Alan Glick
40th-Lowery (7)
IN PHILLY (1990-1995)
Manayunk on the R6, and after that, Tioga on the MFL
IN DC (1980's-1990)
Woodley Park-Zoo (red line)
Kings Highway lived at 2301 Kings Hwy
Wow, Bob, that's weird. I have an aunt that lives right across the street at 2300, the building built like a triangle like the Flatiron Bldg. Being that a while ago we found out that we both have relatives in Brightwater Towers next to the Aquarium that is some coincidence!!!
Did you notice how that new building is being built right up against the older building right next to it, partially blocking some of the windows on that building?
Imagine waking up one day with a brick wall right in front of your window.
I wonder what would have happened if one of those people had an AC in the window?
Will the new building be called the “Great Bear” building? (in honor of what stood on that shood in the past)
My relatives from Brightwater moved to Jersey 2 years ago, so I have no more family that I know of left in Brooklyn.
Where else but Newkirk Ave, July 1957 to June 1972
Bill "Newkirk"
Obviously :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
1951 - 1972 All Times except summers: Av I, Culver
1968 - 1972 College: 116 St, #1 Line
1951 - 1955 Summers: Edgemere, LIRR Rockaway Line
1956 - 1969 Summers: Edgemere, IND Far Rock Line
1970 - 1972 Summers: Wavecrest, IND Far Rock Line
1972 - 1975 Harvard, MBTA Red Line
1975 - 1976 Washington St, MBTA "B" Green Line
1977 - 1984 No subway
1985 - present LaSalle, NFTA Metro
Hope you have a Q T Shirt out by October
I've already got my A shirt.
I've got my N shirt and Sea Beach cap and will be ready for action.
Nah, you ain't ready till you have your OFFICIAL MTA approved 'N' Sea Beach Line pen.
I got mine for the 'D' Brighton Line.
How else are ya gonna sign yer checks and SBF autographs w/o one???
Gotta head to the GCT Museum shop and get properly outfitted first, hombre!
Which reminds me of an old Brooklyn saying: You's can't hang wid the Eagles unless you's knows how ta fly...
;-D
*lol* Maybe his BMT South Div. escort (the one that's going thru Da Bronx with him during his visit to the MAINLAND :-D) will take 'em to GCT for that.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I will appreciate all the help I can get.
Hey...I'm with 'cha after yous all get back from da Bronx-land :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Doug: It will be done. I never knew they had subway pens for sale. Either that or I missed them when I went shopping at the store at Grand Central. Do they have them there or just at the museum? Anyway, it will be done.
Did BMTman mention my fee and "accomodations?" Nothing out of the realm of course, I *must* have operating privileges on a train of a line super's option, preferably in REVENUE service with a spare TSS to take the fall in case I have an "oopsie." I also require provision of genuine N.Y.C.T.A. issue gloves (not that bogus "NYCTA" type) and a side trip to a cab simulator as provided by one of the "invitors" with soundtrack, and of course a comfy place to sleep near Central Park south. Hookers optional. :)
*lmaorotfl*
Stuart, RLine86Man
[I also require provision of genuine N.Y.C.T.A. issue gloves (not that bogus "NYCTA" type)]
If memory serves me correctly, I believe you're a 'two-fisted' lefty in Dyre (Ave.) need of a matching set of NYCTA righties....;-D
I think another trip to B'way Junction is in order here...
BTW, if you're able to sleep in an upright position I have a nice suite available for you in Sheepshead Bay. All you'd have to do is supply some 'Froggy the Gremlin' tapes to the management and you'd be 'In Like Flint'...ha!
BMTman
Heh. Yeah, I've got two left hands ... works out. Then again, ya never know what might turn up in the steelwork there. If all else fails though, we'll pants a TSS. And yes, I *always* slept in the upright position on the rails, until it was "chow time" ... just like my car drivin', those guide rails on the side of the road are there to do your steering just like homeballs exist to operate yer brakes. :)
I'll be HAPPY to bring my froggie along with me. Most boys like to. Heh.
Froggy? I remember him. Remember: That's my dog tide, he lives in a shoe. I'm Buster Brown, look for me in there too. What a pile of shit. Buster Brown shoes were the worst kind made. They fit lousy and they wore out even faster.
Hiya kids, hiya hiya ... ah ah ah ... Why I'll ride your train I will I will. Right into the pilings I will I will. Yeah, the shoes were crap but apparently you've forgotten just how loud a young'un can get once they recognize brand identity. Hell, if you're a teach, just check out them Nikes. :)
>>Hiya kids, hiya hiya ... ah ah ah<<
So much for Froggy, how about Midnight the cat ?
Bill"Newkirk"
Bill: So you remember Andy's Gang. Now that was a great show. "I got a gang,you've got a gang. Everybody's got to have a gang. But there's only one gang in the world for me. Good ol Andy's gang.
Thanks for the memory
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>Bill: So you remember Andy's Gang<<
I do Larry, I remember old sandpaper voice, Andy Devine !
Bill "Newkirk"
Here's a link for Andy's Gang.
I think those of us that can remember watching it could now be called Andy's Over the Hill Gang!!
Considering that Andy is UNDER the hill, being over it ain't so bad. :)
Lew: Thanks for a good web-site.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>> I think those of us that can remember watching it could now be called Andy's Over the Hill Gang!! <<<
I followed the link because I had never heard of Andy's Gang. Now I know why. I guess I can call those who remember watching the program "youngsters." :-)
Tom
Andy s Gang, the original was Smilen Ed McConnell, Andy took over after Smilen Ed Died, Woof Woof, Thats My dog Tide, He Lives in a shoe, I m Buster Brown, Look for me in there too. I wonder if he was one of the Old Lady who Lived in the Shoe s kids.
Thats My dog Tide, He Lives in a shoe, I m Buster Brown, Look for me in there too.
Actually it went:
"I'm Buster Brown, and I live in a shoe. That's my dog, Tige, and he lives there, too."
http://www.yesterdayland.com/popopedia/shows/fashion/fa1152.php
>>> That's my dog, Tige <<<
An interesting link. I was unaware of the history since I had only heard the show on radio and believed from the pronunciation over the radio that the dog's name was "Tide." BTW, am I the only one who never wore Buster Brown shoes? As a child I can only remember Keds and Thom McAns.
Tom
There was National Shoes also
Who? Fred? :)
I posted something on that score last weekend. Those Buster Brown shoes were crappy to the nth degree. They wore terribly and were a good waste of money. But froggy was a treat. He did what I would have loved to do to those people I disliked. Only he the guts to do it and I usually crapped out.
There are some who say Froggy was the template for the sarcastic NewYawker, he is he is ... ah ah ah ...
Midnight's doing the midnight on the N train. NNNNnnnnnniiiiiice ... :)
Fred: I understand that Buster Brown's dog was a pit bull. Your right though, the shoes were crap. One time my mother threw out a pair in the garbage and the garbage threw them right back.
Larry,RedbirdR33
LOL
Sheepshead Bay Station. Grandparents lived in Brighton Beach where my father was raised. I left Brooklyn in 1978 but go back at least once every year.
Alan Glick
The station's changed drastically since then, of course.....but you've seen it since you left obviously... (I mean SB station, not BB station...even though that's changed a little, too)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Kings Highway (for connection to Mill Basin), 1965 -- 1978. Now ex-patriot.
1982-87: Avenue N (F)
1987-93: No subway line, bus to Kings Highway (D,Q) or Rockaway Parkway (L)
1993-94: Kings Highway (N)
1994-2000: No subway line, bus to Kings Highway (D,Q)
2000-: No subway line, car to Sheepshead Bay or Kings Highway (D,Q/Q,Q)
So Pigs is a Brighton Line Person
I live on Long Island, but my grandmother lives at Ave I and Ocean Ave., so my home station there is Ave. J.
You could get off at Ave H also
I did that, also. But J has shops enroute, so that makes it a better station to stop at. Also, better spot for taking pictures.
My "Home Station" is on Long Island, so I just do a drive by on the Brighton, in a Slant 40 if I can ;-)
Mr rt
Ex-home stations: King's Highway and Ave J
Stuart,
1940-1967 [GG] Nassau Avenue,
1967-1968 [7] Main Street, and Q15,
1968-1970 [7] Main Street, and Q28
1970-2002 [GG] Nassau Avenue.
What's this freakin 'G'? It was, it is, and will be the GG to me.
-John S
When the rest of the system went to single letters in the mid-80's, they castrated the GeeGee's second letter, and just made it "Gee"..I know........and now with it being castrated AGAIN with the cutback to Court Sqvare....... :( (I used to ride it ALL da time to xfer to the "Elle" at Metro Avenue/Grand Street.)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Stuart,
One of my favored ventures in my youth in summer weather,
the GG [R1-9] to Hoyt Schemerhorn and transfer to the
A [R-10] to Franklin Avenue, then paper transfer and
climb to the street, then the stairs to the EL and
the BMT Standards [3 car set] local to Prospect Park
then express stops to Coney Island. This was pre
IND-Culver [D] to CI.
And the return home with the aroma of freshly roasted
peanuts. Those were the days my friend.
-John S [Sparky]
Dayum........those WERE the days :(
I've made "sojurns" like that myself........just with modern day trips, unfortunately.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yes, they've turned "GiGi" into a beaver with a kickstand. And not much of one. :)
YOU HAVE A LONG GG history...
My history is with the #1 Broadway Local or the AA/B/C (CC) lines.
N Broadway
Ave U 28 years. Often use kings highway because B3 bus is terrible
The local to express transfer is not bad. The MTA has got the timing down pat. THe Local arives at kings highway just befor the express and vice versa in the reverse direction.
If they can only straighten out the B3 bus line. No bus for 20 min than 3 in a row. Like clock work
I know....that's why I used to walk the TEN blocks from my house on East 26th and Avenue YOU to the (D)...because waiting at Avenue YOU and between East 26th and 27th Street [in front of Richard Yee's Chinese Restaurant {good food, hai!}] was a pain in the ARSE....even though the vertical awning was a BLESSING when it rained. :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
I always take the B3 on weekends and evenings when the B100 runs hourly or half-hourly if it even runs a schedule at all. Maybe because I get on near the beginning of the route I don't think it so bad.
My preferred non-B100 bus though is the B41, but I can't take it if I need to go to a destination along the 6 line.
I haven't lived in NYC since 1976, but when I was there...
1959-1962: Didn't really live within walking distance of
a station, closest was Rockaway Av on the IND I think (though
maybe Rockaway on the NewLots line may havebeen closer)
1962-1964: NewLots Av IRT (could see the station from
the house!!)
1964-1976: Prospect Park, Brighton line or Sterling St,
IRT Flatbush line
Astoria Blvd (BMT) 1959-1976
New Carrolton, MD (WMATA-Orange Line) 1981-1989
1962 - 1973: Brighton Beach / Brighton 6th Street
1973 - 1984: Kings Kighway (D/QB/QJ/M/Q/whatever other iterations it had :
1984 - 1987: Poughkeepsie (Metro North Hudson Line)
1987 - present: Suffern (NJT / Metro North Port Jervis Line)
--Mark
Ever pick your feet up in Poughkeepsie?:-)
1949-1972 and 1979-1984 Either Forest Ave. (10,11,M,MJ) or Halsey St. (16,LL,L)
1973-1978 Stewart Manor (LIRR Hempstead Branch)
1985-present Nassau Boulevard (LIRR Hempstead Branch)
Kings Highway - N or F - 19 Years
Avenue U - N or F - 4 Years
61st St/Woodside - 7 - 3 Years
GO SEA BEACH!!!!!!!
Just make sure you are in the city when I arrive. I need some support to take on those phony Brighton Bitches, eeeeerrrr Botches, ahhhh witches, no, ditches. Oh the hell with it.
*lmfao* "Biotches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1" youse mean?
Stuart, RLine86Man
I read at the WMATA web site that they received $49 million in emergency funds becuase of 9/11. Did any other transit system get funds like these, not counting the NYCT rebuild?
WMATA ruins it for every other subway to get federal funding. Who else thinks it is time to cut the spoiled brat off?
We aren't spoiled but in case you haven't forgotten, the federal government is right above the subway and it could easily be used for an attack if the proper measures aren't taken. I am sure that some federal funding is going to other authorities, we just happen to be getting the most.
NOT! More money should be spent on ALL rail transit projects. Derailing WMATA doesn't help anyone else. The issue is off loading Neanderthals like De Lay, McCain, Lott and others.
I think it sets a good precedent and shows just how crucial transit systems are. Maybe this will lead to more reliable funding for all transit systems.
Hope springs eternal...
>>> WMATA ruins it for every other subway to get federal funding <<<
What besides federal funding would you expect WMATA to receive? The whole District of Columbia lives on federal funding.
Tom
While I was at Coney Island, I saw something interesting, maybe it was my eyes, but I saw a Black Stripe on an R-62A signifying the color band for the Flushing Yard, and I saw a 7 on it. Has the transition begun, are all the redbird fans going to strap themselves to a redbird train? Or was I just seeing things?
Do you know the car numbers that you saw? How many cars were there? It could be possible but as I said, do not get your high hopes up. Currently there are R33ML sitting in Corona yard being tested in service. If they fail, then it IS POSSIBLE that it could be used as a test train. Other than that do not expect R62As on the 7 for some time to come.
#8918 Flushing Local
R134 someone?
What car numbers were they on the R62A's?
I was thinking that, too. You sure it was a black stripe or were u seeing a number plate?
I'm looking for photos on the following subjects for an upcoming book publication:
-- 2nd Avenue subway tunnel segments
-- Cortlandt St. 9/11 station damage
-- 18th St. IRT station
-- 91st St. IRT station
I am, of course, aware of the photos on this and some other sites. But I would like to hear from the actual photographers or others who hold the rights to at least decent quality color photos. Please contact me off the list at conductor@nycmail.org.
Thanks very much.
The last three, you will already see on this site.
Cortlandt Street damage- http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/westside/wtc-damage/
18th Street (I assume on the Lex. Ave/Lafayette Street line- http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/eastside/18th.html
91st Street IRT (Broadway) line- http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/westside/91st.html
Stuart, RLine86Man
Check out the WTC subway photos at my website: The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway- WTC Section
-Harry
Stan Fischler's Book "The Subway" has a photo of stan on a catwalk in the Second Avenue Tunnel Bewtween Confucius Plaza & The Manhattan Bridge on page 77
Hello Everyone.
While at the Springfield train meet last Saturday I chanced upon some photos of an operation in Port Washington (Long Island) that I was previously unaware of.
Apparently the Metropolitan Sand and Gravel Company had a switching operation at a sand pit that utilized a former Cincinnati and Lake Erie box motor that was converted to diesel (or gasoline?) operation. The only info (on the photo captions) suggests that this operation was around in the 1940s. Does anyone have any info on this? I'd love to know what happeend to the box motor, if anyone knows. Feel free to email me at home, CRMISEK@AOL.COM.
THANX!
Conrad Misek, Quincy MA
Vincent F. Seyfried wrote a number of books about trolley lines in Queens & Nassau counties. The first was 1950 of a Queens operation.
I seem to remember 20 as the number of books he wrote (from my search for the 1950 book).
BTW, was it Joe Saitta that sold you the photo ? He posts to the BusTalk site sometimes, so you might try posting your question over there.
Mr rt__:^)
Hello Thurston:
Thanks for the advice, I think I have a complete collection of Mr. Seyfried's trolley boooks, I don't recall the New York and North Shore Traction book as mentioning anything about the sand operation but I will double check.
BTW, the NY&NS is interesting to trace out (if you are into archaeology), plenty of cut-off line poles left, a few bridge abutments, rubble from the power house, and the car house (which is now a beer distributor).
Yes, I did get the pix from Joe Saitta, unfortunately he didn't know much more about the operation than the photo captions described.
BEST WISHES
This may have been an operation owned by American Aggregates. AmAg bought several (perhaps half a dozen) box motors from the Cincinnati & Lake Erie when that line died around 1940. These were the 635 series, some the most modern box motors in North America at the time. AmAg converted all of them to diesel-electrics, retaining the trucks and traction motors and putting in Cummins diesel engines. Several have been preserved, including 638 (body now at Texas Railroad Museum), 640 (now at the Illinois Railway Museum), and an unidentified unit privately owned in Ohio.
Frank Hicks
When I first moved into Glen Oaks in 1960, the first family I became acquainted with were the Browns. There were 5 children then, soon to be 6, much like my own family. As we grew, my friendship with the Brown children became lukewarm but my friendship with the father, Marty, grew. Marty survived 2 concentration camps before he came to this country. I don't think Marty ever did anything else besides drive a cab, both a yellow cab and later for a private car service. In all the time I knew Marty, he never, ever rode a subway train. Perhaps it was because of the association he had with trains and the camps. We never talked about it. Yet, over 40 years, I was always amazed in his simple philosophies of life and despite the 25+ year age difference, the bond between us. He taught me to handicap trotters. He taught me to play poker. He also taught me some important things about the value of family and friends.
Marty and his wife moved to Florida several years ago. I didn't see him much after that. My parents lived nearby but even when I visited them, I didn't make the time to see my friend until the occasion of my father's passing. Even at 70+, he was a bull. I would have bet that he would have outlasted me. He lived a simple life and thrived.
Marty's wife passed a little over a year ago. Marty too became ill not long after. He too passed recently. I'd lost touch with his children and didn't find out until it was too late. I didn't get to pay my respects to my friend Marty. And tonight it is hurting.
My condolences, man :( He sounds like a warrior, and a good friend...and you're right....maybe the subway DID bring back memories of the camps with their "ferry trains"....memories he didn't want but were not able to remove either...well, I'll make sure he's in my prayers tonight.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Very nice story about a fine individual.
Handicapp the trotters! I spent more than a few (hundred) evenings at Roosevelt, Yonkers, the Meadowland et al.........................
It's people like Marty that bring variety and change to our city. I just had one of those experiences...hard to believe that my association was so long ago...feels just like yesterday. My friend Steve, you should have no regrets. Sometimes the Lord makes a break and a pause in our lives for a good reason. Kinda like a linebreaker disengaging...gives you a moment to think of what and who was good. Next week I cross the tracks into 180th country and into a new adventure with NO REGRETS!!!!!!! We build with the good that has entered our lives and learn from past mistakes. CI Peter
Say it Brotha Peter!!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Would it be any easier/cheaper/better to build a tunnel that connects with PATH? Staten Island is practically part of New Jersey anyway, geographically speaking.
Basically what I mean: would some kind of connection between the SIRT and PATH somewhere in New Jersey be more feasible/easy to build/cost-effective than what's been proposed in the past (tunnel to Bay Ridge, etc.)
Yes and no -- Yes, tunneling under Kill Van Kull to Bayonne, or using the Bayonne Bridge, would be cheaper than a tunnel under the Narrows, but no, because the BMT subway is close to where the tunnel would come out on the other side of Brooklyn, while a tunnel to Bayonne would still require another five miles of tunneling to get to the PATH connection (presumably) just west of Journal Square.
Let's get real. This is not going to happen. PATH's capacity was maxed out even before Sept 11. When it does get its Lower Manhattan terminal restored, demand from New Jersey will fill up the trains. There is no room to absorb additional capacity from Staten Island.
Remember too that PATH trains are IRT dimensions, while SIRT is full railroad size and uses BMT-IND equipment. So any connection would require an A division sized car and its limited seating capacities.
If Staten Island were to ever get a rail connection to the rest of New York City, it would have to be via a Narrows Tunnel (actually begun in the 1920's and then abandoned) to the 4th Ave. BMT subway, or via a five mile tunnel under the Upper Bay to South Ferry, Manhattan. From a capacity standpoint the latter makes sense because trains that now terminate in Lower Manhattan (e.g., J, E, or future 2nd Ave. Line could simply continue southward. Of course, a five mile underwater tunnel would probably cost multi-billions of $ at today's prices.
Anyway, no direct Staten Island rail connection is likely to happen for at least another twenty five years. It's too bad that Robert Moses nixed the only really feasilble solution - transit tracks on the VZ bridge.
The tunnel is for FREIGHT, and the current plan only calls for a single track.
Mr rt__:^)
Uhhhh, I thought the freight tunnel was supposed to go from New Jersey to the NYCHRR Docks in Bay Ridge??? Lest that's what I thought.....
There are FOUR plans on the table:
- Same old same old
- New ferrys ... double deckers, going to 65th Street vs. NYCHRR
- Tunnel to NJ
- Tunnel to SI
Mr rt__:^)
This morning, I got on in the front of the front car and took up my position at the railfan window, as usual. Sitting in the two seater behind the #2 door (first pair on the right side towards the blind end), someone was listening to a discman with headphones. Not a problem, except for the fact they were singing rather loudly the music they were listening to. The train had more people than usual (a total of 5 including me at Grosvenor, the last station) but it wasn't really crowded. All I can say is it isn't very nice for me to have to listen to your music, especially since I don't like it very much anyway.
On a happier note, we went manual until Medical Center. We topped out at 72 MPH and 68 MPH.
Dude! They're _giving_ you the _gift_ of free music! :-)
*lol* Have you EVER seen the stickers in NYCT subway cars??
The old ones used to say:
NO Smoking
NO Spitting
NO Littering
NO RADIO PLAYING
Now they're just graphical illustrations (and the "NO Spitting" has been omitted from that one *lol* guess you can FIGURE out vhy!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Tuesday AM I sdaw a strange Amtak train passing Metropark. It had an AEM on the front end and a cab car (with a raised pantograph) on the rear. Cars were standard amtrak (Not Acela Express). Does Amtrak still use cab cars?
Yes they use cab cars, but what you saw was not a cab car. It was the Corridor Clipper, a catenary inspection car.
It was the Corridor Clipper, a catenary inspection car.
Corridor Clipper
Ok. $2 question of the month.
Why the heck can't Amtrak just tack the car onto a regular train, instead of getting it's own AEM-7?
Mr. Buff never clarified if the train only had the clipper in consist. He said there was an AEM on the head end and the clipper on the rear end. The middle end was undefined. I have never seen the clipper or photos of the clipper with the clipper running alone. It usually runs on NE Direct sized trains.
The train appeared to be a regular train with this car on the rear.
on my way to get a hair cut. i took a N train to bay parkway. when i got off i heard something coming on the express tracks. it sounded odl like a redbird then i look i see what has to bee the oldest trains they have it was brown with white numbers i think they were in the 2000's. it was flying. my guess that it was a bmt standard. can anyone help me out to what type of train it was. i know that coney island yard is doing rebuilds on the old trains. but let me tell you it sounded great.
oh yeah one more thing if you know where was it going it cam out of coney island
Well the BMT Standards (3 cars) are numbered 2390-91-92, but restoration isn't complete. The only thing that is brown with white numbers would be the D-Types (6019 ABC-6095ABC-6112 ABC). Perhaps that is what you saw and they were being road tested.
What line did you see this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
on the n line
Here's another hint: if the car(s) had slots for route and destination signs up front, chances are you saw a Triplex. If there was no provision for end bulkhead signs at all, you saw a BMT standard.
6019 are now sitting in Coney Island Yard. I just saw them today 2/07/02, I was going to post this later.
Robert
I take it 6112 was there as well.
All Three are there now. The two that were there are inside the main shop right next to the AB Standers. For what I could see the AB are starting to look better, hope to see them running someday.
Robert
Did 6095 make it under its own power, or was it towed?
Sounds like the D types Jeff.
Mr rt__:^)
you and a number of us know the old rolling stock was built better!
that is just facts !
I can confirm that those were the D types being road tested
after being worked on in CI shops.
6861-65 are in the process of being moved up to the barn at East 180th Street....
-Stef
I just posted this 1837 timetable to my LIRR History website, but I can't quite figure out how many trains per day there were and which direction they were running and from where! First of all, the entire LIRR at that time consisted of a single track line(with passing sidings)from Brooklyn to Hicksville. Also, Vincent Seyfried's LIRR History mentions that early RR timetables would normally only show the departure time from the originating station. It was up to the passengers to figure out what time the train would get to their station. Here's the timetable:
This is how I describe it on the website. Let me know if you think I am mistaken.
"There are 8 trains each day (6 on Sunday). They leave eastbound from Brooklyn at 10AM, 1PM and 4PM; westbound from Hicksville at 8AM and 2PM; and (presumably) eastbound from Jamaica at 8:45AM, 11:30Am and 3PM. Note the intermediate stations: Carle Place, Clowesville, De Lancy Ave., Connecticut Ave., Pennsylvania Ave. and Bedford."
Thanks!
I think you need to test scenarios. Yours doesn't sound logical because essentially you're supposing there are six eastbound trains and two westbound trains. All equipment has to return sometime, and assuming six trains returning light westbound doesn't quite do it.
I'm guessing two round trips to Hicksville and one round trip to Jamaica. "Leave Jamaica" means westbound trains, so we have the following (I'm numbering the trains arbitrarity for clarity (odd numbers west, even numbers east):
One set of equipment is trains 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Train 1 leaves Hicksville 8 am then the same then is the 8:45 am for Brooklyn.
Train 2 leaves Brooklyn 10 am for Hicksville.
Train 3 leaves Hicksville 2 pm then the same train is the 3 pm for Brooklyn.
Train 4 leaves Brooklyn 4 pm for Hicksville.
A second set of equipment is trains 101 and 102
Train 101 is the 11:30 am Jamaica to Brooklyn.
Train 102 is the 1 pm from Brooklyn to Jamaica.
I'm sure someone will complain that this is inefficent use of equipment (2 long RT for one and 1 short RT for another) but the type of equipment on each could be different. But anyway I think this scenario points in the right direcrion.
Same thing, a little clearer:
One set of equipment is trains 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Train 1 leaves Hicksville 8 am then the same train is the 8:45 am Jamaica to Brooklyn.
Train 2 leaves Brooklyn 10 am for Hicksville.
Train 3 leaves Hicksville 2 pm then the same train is the 3 pm Jamaica to Brooklyn.
Train 4 leaves Brooklyn 4 pm for Hicksville.
A second set of equipment is trains 101 and 102
Train 101 is the 11:30 am Jamaica to Brooklyn.
Train 102 is the 1 pm from Brooklyn to Jamaica.
This second train set is omitted on Sundays.
I wonder what was in Hicksville in 1837. It's all tract housing and malls now...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Probably Hicks.
>>Probably Hicks.<<
Farmland pre-dated housing tracts and malls of today. Hicksville was a railroad town with the farms on the outskirts.
With the newly rebuilt Hicksville ticket office/waiting room there is a fancy wooden plaque in the escalator stairwell stating Valentine Hicks as LIRR preisident for who the town was named after. I guess the "hicks" were working on the farms.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, why do you think I capitalized "Hicks."
I wonder, are the Hicks the same people for whom Hicks Street in Brooklyn is named?
>>Well, why do you think I capitalized "Hicks."<<
Whoa ! Settle down, no reason to get arrogant !
>>I wonder, are the Hicks the same people for whom Hicks Street in Brooklyn is named?<<
Perhaps the Hicks family owned property for which the street now bears their name. Maybe Bob Andersen could shed some light on this.
Bill "Newkirk"
The answer can be found HERE
Thanks Paul!
Hey, even in f----'in 1837 they were charging you extra if you got on the train without a ticket while the ticket window was open!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Incredible, because in 2002 passengers still react as if it's something "new"!
Hey, Bob. Don't expect me to figure it out. I ain't some kind of 'rocket scientist', ya know! ;-D
On the site, I keep seeing references to "Anticlimbers" What are they?
Jim Fish
I'll take it on since I'm the unofficial "patron saint of the anticlimber" ... these are steel pieces which are right at the floorline of cars whose purpose is to prevent one car from literally climbing on top of another car "doggie style" in the event of a wreck. This is best shown with some pictures ...
On an N SeaBits R68 car, they're narrower than they used to be but still serve the purpose ... See here ... the anticlimber is that three ridges of steel above the coupler right at the storm door on the front of the car.
On older cars see here they actually went from side to side along the floorline ... hope this helps.
Gee, and I thought it was a device to prevent railfans from climbing on-board .... NOT
Mr rt__:^)
Heh ... no, those are known as "dropping step plates" when the R1/9's were in as sorry shape as redbirds today. They're also known as "antifoamers" ... :)
[... known as "dropping step plates"] Ouch !
[... known as "antifoamers"] most of us resemble that remark !
Mr rt__:^)
Plenty of other things to grab. :)
What aspect of the anticlimber prevents cars from piling up? Is it the ridges, the curvature, etc?
When the cars collide the ridges with mush together and interlock, thus preventing one car from sliding up over onto another.
Some speculate that had the BRT cars involved in the Malbone Street wreck been equipped with anticlimbers, the damage would not have been as bad. It still would have been considerable, given the speed of the train.
Some speculate that had the BRT cars involved in the Malbone Street wreck been equipped with anticlimbers, the damage would not have been as bad. It still would have been considerable, given the speed of the train.
I don't see how anticlimbers would have made any difference. There was little or no telescoping of cars into one another. It was the impact of two cars with the serrated interior tunnel wall that caused most of the deaths.
Besides, the cars in the wreck did have anticlimbers.
They were the smaller style of anti-climber that were only a
few feet on either side of the center of the platform. In the
1920s when the cars were rebuilt, the larger anti-climbers were
put on.
It was actually the wood splinters, steel pieces and above all else, all that glass that killed most of the victims. And the crush weight. Reports of most dying by electrocution were supposedly not true.
It was actually the wood splinters, steel pieces and above all else, all that glass that killed most of the victims. And the crush weight. Reports of most dying by electrocution were supposedly not true.
Brian Cudahy reported in his book that most of the deaths resulted from massive head injuries. He based that on a review of the death certificates, which also showed that the great majority of the deaths occurred right in the tunnel rather than afterwards in hospitals. So it appears that the glass and splinters rumors are incorrect, just like the electrocution stories.
I wouldn't be surprised. The wooden cars disintegrated on impact ...
Not to be too gruesome about it, but Cudahy's description is probably technically correct, but sort of understates the horror of it.
Doctors are trained to state a specific technical cause of death even when the cause of death, in layman's terms, is obvious. People in the wreck were crushed, slashed, and torn to pieces by the causes Selkirk mentioned. If asked to say what, in particular, caused a specific person's death, a doctor might say "massive head trauma" because a person's head was crushed without having to identify what crushed it. If this hadn't happened, "loss of blood" or whatever the medical term for that is, would probably be the "cause."
The main point I see Selkirk making is that it was physical destruction, not the ridiculous Sunday Supplement "electrocution" story that caused almost all the deaths.
Yes indeed, that was where I was going. Granted, not having been there my information isn't any much more reliable than anything else out there. The New York Times always was legendary in covering news in far off places with the utmost of "accuracy" and yet, every time they did a story where WE lived, they got it wrong every time. Nope, better not go there either. :)
Selkirk explained it very well, but to "gild the lilly" I'll add that before anticlimbers were developed, wrecks where one car telescoped into another because the floor of one slid up over the floor of another were common and horrific.
Does anyone know if any train simulators out there have one of the NYC subway lines on there? I heard somewhere on SubTalk before that there is a train sim software out there that has the NYC subway on it.
If anyone can help, it would be greatly appreciated.
-J!
We're gonna have to help Unca Dave add a link to BVE software somewhere on the Transfer station page. First part of the ordeal is getting the BVE software from the only place you can get it in Japan, in Japanese ...
There's a site called http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/ that will walk you through the steps of collecting the pieces of the BVE program and how to get it working, then you can visit some of the other sites that contain NYCTA routes and trains for BVE:
http://r68a_5200.tripod.com/
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/
http://www.crotrainz.com/DownNY.html
And there's more too. :)
Thank you very much, kind sir. Your help is most appreciated.
-J!
Pssst! Don't tell anyone ... :)
Having some difficulty driving that Japanese train...can ya give me a hand? If I can't master that how can I master the 7 Flushing Express?
-J!
All the answers you need can be found in the "driving" section back on that BVEHelper site ... if you've got a joystick, even easier ...
It works with a joystick?
Yep ... it's there under options on the menu. Two keyboard styles, one joystick mode and a special "Train controller" mode as well - there's this $160.00 Japanese "103 type" controller with a brake handle and controller that you can buy and plug into BVE as well. Same controller as is used for Densho "Go" ... I like playing with BVE when I get a chance, but I'm not THAT nuts. :)
I'm curious as to what systems other than the New York subway are favorites of the posters of this board. I'm going tally up votes after a few days and declare winners. I have four categories:
1) Favorite heavy rail
2) Favorite light rail
3) Favorite commuter rail
4) Favorite overall system
My own votes are as follows:
Heavy rail: Toronto. Not sure why. Other cities have more extensive systems, and other cities have prettier stations, but I like the bushed aluminum cars, the realistically clean stations, and there are lots of good places to take pictures. Close 2nd: Atlanta's MARTA because its so easy to ride during a layover at Hartsfield International.
Light rail: Dallas DART. Again, not sure why, maybe because it was the first modern LRV I ever rode. Close second, my home Philadelphia, for the wonderful Route 100.
Commuter rail: Burlington, Vermont's Champlain Flyer. A town of 100,000 makes a decent system of two coaches and only three stations. I have to love that!
Overall system: Toronto TTC. I love it because it has lots of varitey, from heavy subways to streetcars, to the adorable Scarborough Rapid Transit. I hope to visit it again soon.
Mark
Heavy rail: Amtrak - NYC/Albany-Rensselaer
Light Rail: Buffalo (nearest, probably sucks)
Commuter rail: MARC ... hell, our congressman Sweeney KILLED ours ...
Overall system: STCUM ... boring for railfans but a nice railroad.
Montreal has a great subway. I really don't look thru railfan windows anyway, so that doesn't matter. The stations very nice. I love the way the system is integrated into the city. All the underground passageways and connections to shops and buildings is seamless. It's like they planned both at the same time.
Us upstate Noo Yawkahs are proud of our tundra and ice sculptures and all (and the roads are SO much smoother to drive on when ice fills the potholes) BUT ... Montreal gets SERIOUSLY cold ... all the more reason to love the little choochoos up there, especially THIS time of year. But yes, in a non-NYC kinda way, it's a nice, practical, FUNCTIONAL railroad ... and that's all that matters really.
Which is why they have all the underground passages I like.
Saves frizzing the fambly jools. :)
re: underground passageways .... Toronto has something similar in its downtown area called the PATH. It also includes a number of shopping malls.
--Mark
Yeah, like Eaton's that takes up the distance between two stations. Also some building lobbies are part of the underground network. Do you know what PATH stands for?
Port Authorty Trans-Hudson
Chuck Greene
I was talking about the PATH underground network in Toronto.
I honestly don't know what it stands for but I'll see if I can find out. The PATH is very useful in winter...
-Robert King
I guess the Trans Hudson part is valid in this context - the PATH does connect the Bay (formerly Simpsons) to several other buildings, including the Eaton Centre. :)
I'd have to go with Montreal. The underground is something I'd like to see in Midtown. Even if you have a long walk from the train, you think you are already there, because of the underground walk with shopping. Kind of like shopping centers are designed to minimize the effect of walking long distances.
Buffalo - can be summarized in one word: Yuck.
In the transit mall they run painfully slowly, much slower than necessary. And, because the LRVs seem to have been designed for high platforms, the street running is made even slower because of the way it is accomodated by providing automatic folding stairs on the LRVs. Unfolding the stairs at each stop and then folding them back up before leaving takes a while and the LRVs make an awful beeping sound while this is going on.
The LRVs themselves look like a vintage 1970s McDonalds or Burger King on the inside and the PA systems on most of them are terrible because the sound of the chopper control is picked up electrically somewhere along the line, amplified and sent to the speakers every time an announcement is made, rendering it impossible to understand. The only thing interesting about them is that they're double ended but not articulated and they don't have resilient wheels.
In the subway the LRVs stretch their legs quite a bit and run fast. But the stations in the subway are awful dark urine soaked little holes.
Over all, Buffalo is really crappy. When I went down with a friend, I honestly thought they'd keep the stations decently clean and brigher than they were.
-Robert King
Only went to Beefalo once, blew past it many times on the LakeShore Ltd ... then again, if it's an armpit experience you're looking for, we have TROY, NY ... ain't got NOTHING ... the Municipal bus is a zamboni, yadayada ...
Buffalo can be OK once you get away from downtown. But downtown Buffalo is horrible. When I was down with Rob H. the shopping mall downtown (which has a bridge over top of the light rail line - would be a good spot to take pictures if only it wasn't closed off to the public) closed around 6:00 and this was on Friday night no less. That pretty much summarizes the downtown part of the city right there.
I'm not looking for the armpit experience so now I'll know to avoid Troy.
Incidentally, have you ever been to Erie, Pennsylvania? They've got CSX's main line for the area running through the place with very frequent train service and Norfolk Southern runs trains through there as well. I was at a slide show in January and one of the locations covered was Erie - and nothing but the municipal buses were shown which was quite disappointing. It speaks for the busketeer mentality here...
-Robert King
Based on a limited sample as a visitor/tourist:
Heavy rail: Atlanta. It has a really useful airport connection that actually goes to places in downtown that tourists/visitors want to go (as opposed to Chicago, which doesn't seem to go to locations visitors want to visit or stay).
Light rail: Boston. The Green Line to Riverside lets you stay in a cheap suburban motel and drive to their parking lot and be downtown pretty fast on a line that has frequent service. You can even stay at a relatively inexpensive hotel right at Riveside Station and not have to drive at all.
I'll cast a second vote for this one:
Light rail: Boston.
[The Green Line to Riverside lets you stay in a cheap suburban motel and drive to their parking lot and be downtown pretty fast on a line that has frequent service.]
Even better, stay at a bed & breakfest right on the line, pay $5 to park you car round back. Two years ago did that with St. Mary's as the stop I boarded the Green Line.
[You can even stay at a relatively inexpensive hotel right at Riveside Station and not have to drive at all.]
Did that a few years ago too, it was great as the hotel is right off the parkway, no city driving required.
Mr rt__:^)
Heavy Rail: London
Light Rail: Does this count people movers? If so, Hartsfield People Mover. I'm not a big light rail fan.
Commuter: Believe it or not, I've NEVER ridden commuter rail before. However, I'd like to ride Toronto's GO
Overall: London, this is my number one subway of all time.
Hartsfield's people mover is almost identical to what we have at Denver International Airport. The only big difference is tunnel lighting. There was none to speak of at Hartsfield in 1999 when I was there. It was like being on a train of R-1/9s with no headlights - real cool!
Yeah, those Westinghouse/Adtranz/Bombardier systems are cool. I think Denver's design mistake was not having walkways in case the trains failed. They thought the system would be reliable enough not to need them. But nothing is 100% reliable, only 99.9%.
heavy rail - its a tie (3 way) NYC, Toronto and Boston) the red line just is cozy -
Light rail - i like Bostons, followed by denver
Commuter rail - Boston -extensive
Overall - Boston - If NYC had a light rail system it would walk over all others...
mike
Heavy Rail-SEPTA. The Broad Street Subway because of the fast service, and very few delays.
Light Rail- SF Muni Metro. I like this system for alot of reasons but mainly becuase how modern the stations are, and the Breda LRVs that the system uses. Also what i find interesting is how some single cars couple to another single car (at West Portal sta) or become a third car of a 2-car train and go into the tunnel as one unit, i find that very fascinating.
Commuter Rail- NJT NEC. I'm not really a commuter rail fan but i like NJT NEC line. I like this line mainly becuase of the exp runs in the morning rush they make very few stops like an exp train supposed to. Also i like it how they bypass stations at top speed and how you see nothing but a blurr passing thru the stations.
Overall system- SF's Muni. I just love the variety of vehicles thier system is very diverse. I just love multi-modal systems, to me having a variety of transit vehicles just makes any city look soo much better to me.
I like multi-modal as well. Muni is a very good system for this. Also, Market St is the gold mine of transit. You got Buses, Trolley buses, historic tolleys, cable cars, light rail, and BART subway all on one street. What more could you ask for?
Ive grown up in Boston all my life so I enjoy the MBTA for its subways and the history behind it.
My favorite Heavy-Rail is the Blue Line its small, runs on the former Boston Revere Beach & Lynn ROW and the cars are the size of trolley cars because of the tunnels it rides in the cars are 46ft each.
Light-Rail has to be the D Riverside Line a log relaxing ride through the burbs and end up by Rt 128/95, the line is the former Boston and Albany ROW through Newton. Commuter Rail has to be the Rockport Line because of its scenery alot of wet lands and oecan sights. Stevie
I'd vote for MUNI as well. It's got the best of everything.
I must admit, the Broad Street Subway is one of my favorites as well. I think it was because I was a regular Market-Frankford line commuter for over a year before I ever rode the big orange Kawasakis, so for a long time there was a huge element of mystery to this line that I saw on the maps but had never ridden. Now that I teach a class at Temple U. once a week, I get to ride it every Monday. I just wish I could catch express trains at Cecil B. Moore!
Mark
the beauty of the wahington METRO .......
( sorry marta in atlanta ) !!!
light rail SAN DIEGO in which I will photograph soon to show
eric hass how how this is supposed to be done ..
i have seen all rail systems to give a fair survey...
the beauty of the washington METRO .......
( sorry marta in atlanta ) !!!
light rail SAN DIEGO in which I will photograph soon to show
eric hass how how this is supposed to be done ..
i have seen all rail systems to give a fair survey...
At least someone here respects the beauty of WMATA.
oh yea & the stations blow U away !! do they harass you when you try
to take pictures of your system ?
>>do they harass you when you try to take pictures of your system ? <<
They never harassed me, although I never used a tripod or interfered with passenger traffic and train movement. Then again, this was before 9/11, so.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>do they harass you when you try to take pictures of your system ? <<
They never harassed me, although I never used a tripod or interfered with passenger traffic and train movement. Then again, this was before 9/11, so.
Bill "Newkirk"
I respect the beauty of the DC Metro! I think the stations are not only beautiful in their soaring arched design, but their are a masterpeice of elegant simplicity: The stations are basically made of nothing but concrete and floor tile, yet still they are beautiful. I also admire the foresight of this simple design: being made of only concrete and floor tile, they are going to stay new-looking for ages.
Mark
>>>...they are going to stay new-looking for ages<<<.
YEAH, YEAH, they said the same thing about the IND. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Even though I criticize the WMATA for its disproportionate funding, I still think it's a great system, and I thoroghly the field trip. The stations are great to look at (Fort Totten is my favorite station), and the Arch III design is my favorite. However, every station looks exactly alike, there is no suprise as to what is coming up next. Same goes for the rolling stock.
1) Favorite heavy rail
I assume rapid transit rail. Evanston Express.
2) Favorite light rail
Philadelphia, for what it has, for what it might regain, and for its retained non-revenue trackage.
3) Favorite commuter rail
Former Erie-Lackawanna
4) Favorite overall system
Chicago, Chicago and the CTA. ;-)
Heavy Wail: WMATA (Washington Metro Area Twansit Authoritay :-P) Metrowail........I was only on it once, from Union Station to Pentagon City (the Mall...loved it)....and yeah, it might have only been an 18 minute wide with a twansfer from da Wed (Red) line to the Wellow (Yellow) line........but I found it wery...cozy...compared to the "roughness" of our NYCT system.
Light Wail: San Diego-Tijuana Light Wail...took it in '86 with the family and bro who was stationed at Navy Station San Diego aboard the (still commissioned) USS Fife (DD-991).
Commuter Wail: A two way tie. The Long Island Wail Woad :-D, because I'm a speed demon, and I can get to wide aboard a M-1/M-3 with the foamer :-D window on all 3 lines I take: Port Jefferson (Minn-ee-oh-la and Hicks-wille), Babylon/Montawk (Bay Shore and Mastic-Shirley) and Jamaica-"Round"bush. Second system: New Joisey Twansit's North Joisey Coast line from NYP to Long Bwanch...a long but relaxing and with some music, enjoyable wide.
Overall System: Hmmm....MTA LI Wail Woad. I'm still thinking of applying to be an Assistant Conductor, just so I can be on it.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Favorite heavy rail:
I'd have to call it a three-way tie between the Chicago "L", London Underground, and Washington Metro. Each system is very unique and has its own special attributes.
Favorite light rail:
The MBTA Green Line is the only light rail line I have extensive experience riding, so I guess it wins by default.
Favorite commuter rail:
Metra Electric District (former Illinois Central). Fast, (mostly) elevated, smooth-riding, and with large bi-level MU's... What more could I possibly want?
Favorite overall system:
I'm naturally biased towards Chicago, but I also think the MBTA system is very cool just because of its sheer diversity.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"Metra Electric District (former Illinois Central). Fast, (mostly) elevated, smooth-riding, and with large bi-level MU's... What more could I possibly want?"
Washrooms on-board? :^) Every Metra line BUT the Electric has a washroom in each train car.
1) Favorite heavy rail
London (for sheer massiveness of the system)
2) Favorite light rail
Dallas (a new, efficient system still growing)
3) Favorite commuter rail
Berlin S-Bahn (an extensive system reaching many points outside Berlin proper)
4) Favorite overall system
Berlin (the U-, S- and Strassen-bahn just blanket the city and nearby communities)
1 the L partially because I discovered it as a kid but also 'cause its just such a diverse system
2 toss up MBTA Green--SF MUNI.
3 Metra Electric (and including CSS&SB) still the best
4 SEPTA why you ask this underfunded outfit in one of America's declining cities? Connectivity. the tunnel integrating RDG and PRR was a brilliant maneuver and the passageway system from Suburban to the Broad and Market subs is great, plus the connection at 30th St. although downgraded from its previous design still is good (Chicago, my first love in most things rail, has utterly failed in integrating commuter rail with CTA L services.
It's good to hear something good about SEPTA. As for integration it's hard to beat, and I fear we Philadelphians don't always appreciate those things that are good about SEPTA. Our airport service is hard to beat, too.
Mark
Light Rail I forgot about the Hong Kong Trolley(Tram) only double deck Trams in world, and they are being replaced with new ones
Bob, is it hard for an American to navagate in Hong Kong? Even though the British owned it, is Cantonese or Chinese dominant or is getting by only on English is possible?
1) Favorite heavy rail
- Chicago
2) Favorite light rail
- SF MUNI
3) Favorite commuter rail
- Amtrak/CA Capitol service -does it qualify?
4) Favorite overall system
- Definitely Toronto
No although that is exactly what it is. Amtrak legislation specfically rejects commuter service, although they have sold multi-ride discounted tickets. ah politics.
Heavy Rail: MBTA red line
Light Rail: MBTA green line
Commuter Rail: MBTA commuter Rail
Overall system: MBTA
Heavy Rail Tie Hong Kong and Singapore Light Rail SF Muni.& Melbouren Trams. Commuter Canton and Kowloon Railway where you could watch China Rail Trains with different equipment go by.
1) WMATA (what kind of question was that?) MARTA is 2nd
2) I am not a big light rail fan...
3) Again, haven't ridden enough
4) WMATA, followed by MARTA, CTA, NYMTA, SEPTA, and MBTA
1) Favorite heavy rail
The Paris Métro! So much more intricate and thorough than London!
2) Favorite light rail
Leipzig... ah the memories of those ancient Czechoslovakian built streetcars in the August heat!
3) Favorite commuter rail
Stratford-upon-Avon - Birmingham Snow Hill. From the you Yanks' favourite town in England to the best most central station in the second city of the UK!
4) Favorite overall system
Probably Rome. Nice place, nice coffee, awful stations and no-one gives a damn.
Fav. heavy Rail-
DC and Philly are great, but NYC takes the cake. baltimore's blows.
Fav. light rail-
the only ones ive been on are baltimore and some of SEPTA's services. I hated Baltimore's system. It was excruciatingly slow, crowded, it passes through some real wasteland along I-83, and that damn single trackage leads to delays. I love SEPTA's services, especially the 100.
Fav. Commuter Rail-
SEPTA Regional Rail. When I lived in Philly, in Manayunk, i constantly rode the R6 from Manayunk Station to the El at Mkt-East.
Fav. Overall System-
Its close. I like DC for its efficiency and cleanliness. I like Philly because its varied and diverse like no other system. But NYC wins again, because its just so......New York!!
Heavy Rail: Amtrak's Carolinian. It's a smooth ride from D.C. to Charlotte despite the fact that Charlotte's station is in teh middle of a Norfolf Southern Yard
Light Rail: DART in Dallas. There's something about growing up hand in hand with a transit company. The cars are quiet and neat. The stations however all look alike.
Commuter Rail: The Trinity Rail Express. The refurbished RDC are smooth as well as the bi-level's.
Overall System: Dallas Area Rapid Transit. DART has only been around for about 22 years and I lived there for 20 of them. The story of how DART took over transit operations and made the system a success is remarkable. In my opinion DART helped make Dallas the major city it is today. Now if the people here in Charlotte can get there heads out of their ass.
My vote goes to the long gone streetcar system in and around Scranton, PA - the Electric City - home of the first viable electric streetcar system in the USA (and maybe the world?). There was also the Northern Electric which ran north out of Scranton. The right-of-way is a few hundred feet from my house. Someday I'm going to make a website of recent photos taken of the ROW to show what it looks like today.
Where is that thing anyway? I saw signs for it but never found it. I know they have a museum near Steamtown because I picked up a brochure. I saw the trains at Steamtown from the bridge leading between it and the mall, it looks cool.
Does COLTS have any buses other than Gilligs? I haven't seen anything other than that for years when I've been around Viewmont and Steamtown Malls or anywhere else on the US 6 Corridor.
I'm going to stick to only those systems I've been on, so I won't be giving any answers based only on pictures I've seen etc.
Favourite heavy rail: Toronto. The biggest reason is the rolling stock; the subway cars are large and they look good - they're serious subway cars whose appearance, including the newest ones, haven't been denigrated by the silly styling that seems to be the common practice these days. Also, the subway network is in good condition, the stations are clean and bright and service is frequent - it's never more than a five minute wait for a train unless there's a problem that's disrupting service. London Underground comes to a very close second place.
Favourite non-streetcar light rail: Boston would be my favourite because the conversion from underground streetcar lines to light rail was done quite well. The age and size of the green line and its branches also means that the fleet of equipment used isn't homogenous or cookie cutter box-on-wheels LRVs, the lines themselves are varied and interesting, and the stations aren't rinkydink bland cookie cutter structures found on most recently built light rail systems.
Favourite streetcar light rail: Toronto wins hands down due to the size and extent of the streetcar network which brings into play the diversity of characteristics found on each line. Additionally, the streetcars are proper streetcars and not LRVs forced into a street running environment and hence are not LRVs of the bland box-on-wheels variety. There are two (technically three) different varieties of streetcars in use which breaks things up nicely and unlike the MBTA, the TTC actually allows PCC fan trips.
Commuter rail: I'm not interested in this at all.
Overall: Toronto edges out London Underground because there aren't any intersting surface operations in London - Croydon Tramlink wasn't open when I was there so I can't account for it - and I'm not terribly interested in buses, even if they are double deckers.
By the way, I was stranded on the 'adorable Scarborough RT' today at Ellesmere station when the computer governing the train movements crashed. They opted not to go over to fixed block cab signalling or fully manual emergency mode while they rebooted the computer at transit control, probably because it'd be a huge pain in the butt to reenter every train on the line into the system because they'd be in new positions when it came back up. This is the first time since the line opened that I've gotten stuck in an SRT snarl but it hasn't been bug free by any stretch...
-Robert King
Heavy Rail: Chicago CTA Ravenswood line I enjoy the outer edge with surface trackage running through backyards and street crossings and the elevated line through the loop enjoying the scenery of skyscrapers.
Light Rail: St. Louis Metrolink. A mixture of rapid transit, commuter rail, and interurban like ROW going to Belleville IL.
Commuter Rail: Chicago Metra BNSF line to Aurora due to fast express service.
Overall System: London with it's extensive underground and suburban rail service.
Changed my mind. My most favorite overall system is Tokyo due to a variety of interurbans, several private commuter lines, extensive subway, streetcar, and monorail lines.
For those who have the time and money, it would be great to have a SubTalk field trip to Japan to explore Tokyo and Osaka rail transit systems.
Yikes, how could I forget the St. Louis MetroLink? I'm going to have to change my own vote in the light rail category. I love the underground stations, because the underground section was converted from a very old frieght tunnel, and the wonderful olf masonry arches were incorporated into the modern stations. They're very beautiful.
Also, it has airport service and that was a big plus for me when I visited St. Louis last year.
Mark
Heavy - Hong Kong. They're in the midst of a huge system expansion right now, and those lines are spreading out like wildfire across the urban areas of the territory. Paris's system isn't too far behind tho, that is also a good system.
Light - Calgary. Can't beat home cookin'...and the new SD-160s kick major ass...You'll be able to see 'em when David finally posts them up on the site.
Commuter - NYC's LIRR and Toronto's GO. I haven't been on either one, but I'm completely mesmerized by those two...well, not as much as the GO, but the LIRR is one system I want to ride the next time I'm in NY.
Overall - Holy crap, do I even have a shortlist?! But if I can name some off the list, it'd be: New York (duh), Paris, Hong Kong, Toronto, Montreal, Calgary.
-J!
Heavy Rail: Close tie between WMATA (For structure, highway access, and cleanliness) and SEPTA (For close connections, dependable service, and overall appearance)
Light Rail: SEPTA blows the competition away. Mixed use of traditional trolleycars (as in the single-end LRVs) and modernized equipment (The double-enders on the 101 and 102)
Commuter Rail: SEPTA again. Yes, Regional Rail has its problems, but most of those are weather or passenger-related, not out of gross incompetence and lackluster performance from the operators. Add to that the easy connections to the subway/elevated system and the more intriguing stations (Thorndale, Market East, Fern Rock Transportation Center), and it should be easy to see why this is the best commuter system out there... and having 30 minute Airport headways and regular weekend service (compared to what I've seen from LIRR and MARC/VRE) doesn't hurt a bit.
Favortite overall: SEPTA. No, it's not the hometown bias. For the fact that most of Philly was already settled and developed when rail transit was introduced, they did an excellent job. NY has the expansive boroughs, and DC's suburbs grew as the rail lines did, so they have that advantage for size. SEPTA inherited their system, and did an excellent job on improvements. WMATA, I respect them very much. But when I'm visiting DC, I can't help but notice how dark their stations are compared to SEPTA's. The somewhat repetitive station design used within the Metro system, along with the standard brown coloring, using only dots and stripes against a brown background for line color identification, is quite boring. Wheras SEPTA makes a point of keeping varied designs for their stations, and not only heavily boasts the line's color coding, but (typically within the Broad Street Line) also uses differing colors within the stations for quick identification. Yes, cleanliness is questionable - blame that on high ridership, too much of which is under-appreciative, ungrateful slime that smokes, spits, and litters the stations. The staff works dilligently to clean, sometimes rivalling even the Metro system... but alas, as with NY, too many riders, not enough surveillance cameras.
the beauty of the washington METRO .......
( sorry marta in atlanta ) !!!
light rail SAN DIEGO in which I will photograph soon to show
eric hass how how this is supposed to be done ..
i have not seen all rail systems to give a fair survey...
I think most of you have cast your votes, so I can announce the winners now.
In the category of heavy subways, our nation's capital takes the top honors with its beautiful and clean WMATA Metro, with 6 votes. Chicago's L was close behind with 5 votes.
In the category of light rail, the clear winner is America's oldest subway, Boston MBTA's green line. Rich in tradition, serving many popular destinations, and running a delightfully variety of new and old equipment, the green machines gathered a whopping 8 votes. The closest competition was San Francisco's MUNI with 4 votes.
Moving on to commuter rail, we have a tie, between Boston's MBTA and Chicago's Metra, each coming in with 3 votes. NJ Transit and SEPTA also scored two votes each for their commuter rail systems.
And finally, the big one, in the category of overall transit systems, the winner is…
Boston's MBTA, with 4 votes. Philadelphia's SEPTA and Toronto's TTC were tied for second with 3 votes a piece.
Boston took home honors in three of four categories. Clearly it is a favorite non-New York railfanning city of subtalkers. Having ridden the trains there I can see why.
Thanks to all who voted!
Just picked up a copy of "The Map" dated January 2002...
Haven’t had a chance to look at it yet and see what changes have been made since the 12/01 version.
If it's the same as is currently on the web site, they've put the E WTC stop back in. They still haven't made it clear what's going on with Queens Blvd: when does the G run and when does the V?
G runs from about 9pm to 5 am weekday nights and all day Sat and Sun and I would assume holidays as well.
The V from about 5 am to 12 midnight. Weekdays.
As I thought. When I am coming home from work nights on the F, There are locals backed up fom Woodhaven Blvd the way to 71 Ave. From 9pm to 12midnight, there are V and R and G trains all running local along Queens Blvd.
I saw the new map the other night and it says WTC on the E is still closed
While I have no official inmfo, I expect another map- Maybe February 2002 which should show WTC on the E as being open.
I noticed the new map while at work this past week. I would have looked at it more closely. But I was at work. And I was working at 86 St.
Here are the changes I found:
1- eliminated Atoria express. now all rtains are local
2- eliminated box for transit museum exhibit at Grand Central.
Yes, those seem to be the major changes on this new version.
"When I am coming home from work nights on the F, There are locals backed up fom Woodhaven Blvd the way to 71 Ave. From 9pm to 12midnight, there are V and R and G trains all running local along Queens Blvd."
According to the MTA's latest schedules, there are only 17 trains terminating at Continental from 9 to 10 PM: 5 Gs, 6Rs, 6Vs.
Does anyone know why they have trouble turning around such a small number of trains? The track plan looks prfectly reasonable, with 2 relay tracks.
Bad management.
Only 17 trains in a hour? After 9PM? Sounds like a hell of a lot of service to me! That is the reason why the G turns at Court Sq. from 6 AM to 8 PM and why it still should turn there till the R and V go to sleep for the night after 11 PM! Trains have to be re-crewed at Continental and have to be checked for passengers not riding to the relay position or yard. Can't do all that with a train every 3 1/2 minutes without a backup! You also do not have a loop in the hole at Continental, they have to relay and crossover in front of each other.
the system they have works fine until the first messed up passenger or any of the trains gt delayed coming in. What are the odds.
Can't do all that with a train every 3 1/2 minutes without a backup! You also do not have a loop in the hole at Continental, they have to relay and crossover in front of each other.
I guess there's no chance that the tracks from the hole to Flushing Meadows shown on some of the old Subway Maps are there. That would ease it a bit.
Haven't seen it either, but maybe they changed the W so it's local along Astoria.
Side note: The online map shows diamond M throughout Brooklyn. I thought the M turns at 9th Ave weekdays and is extended to Bay Parkway during rush hours.
=)
Filing deadline is Feb. 26. Test expected to be held on June 29.
If you past the written test you have to take a phyiscal. Be able to lift 80lbs, walk a catwalk high up in the air type things (balance). Pays over $15 and hour plus benifts.
yea i already picked up the application. hurry up it ends febuary 26! i know i can do this job cause i can lift 90lbs and i am 6'4 with size 17 shoes. so i am taking the test and working out starting yesterday
Yo Hombre!! Savve n speako Anglais? CI Peter
Panel: Amtrak Should Be Broken Up
By LAURENCE ARNOLD
.c The Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) - A congressionally appointed panel says Amtrak is irreversibly flawed and should be broken up to give the free market an opportunity to improve the nation's passenger train system.
Amtrak, created to relieve freight railways of the burden of carrying passengers, should be replaced at least in part by private operators working under franchise, the Amtrak Reform Council says.
The council's report, going to Congress on Thursday, says Amtrak should be relieved of policy-making duties and landownership. After a transition period, private operators would be allowed to compete for contracts to run specific routes.
If enacted, the change would be dramatic. Amtrak, formed in 1971, is the nation's sole provider of intercity passenger train travel.
``The council believes that passenger rail service will never achieve its potential as provided and managed by Amtrak,'' the report says.
The Associated Press obtained a copy of its executive summary on Wednesday.
The next step is up to Congress, due to vote this year on whether to authorize Amtrak's continued existence. The House Transportation Committee has scheduled a Feb. 14 hearing on the report.
White House budget director Mitchell Daniels said this week the Bush administration plans to study the council's plan before deciding on a course for Amtrak and passenger rail.
The plan faces a hostile reception from Amtrak supporters on and off Capitol Hill.
``I think this report should be rejected out of hand,'' said Amtrak chairman Michael Dukakis, former Massachusetts governor and presidential candidate. He called decentralization ``a prescription for bureaucratic paralysis.''
Dukakis said the real issue is money.
Amtrak says it has a $5.8 billion backlog in work needed on its trains, tracks, rail yards and stations. The Transportation Department's inspector general, Kenneth Mead, reported last month that Amtrak needs at least $1 billion a year to stave off deterioration of its assets, most of which are in the Northeast.
Last week, Amtrak said it will cancel long-distance routes unless it receives $1.2 billion in the 2003 budget year, which begins in October. President Bush has proposed $521 million for Amtrak, the same amount as the last three years.
In its report, the reform council endorses ``adequate and secure sources of funding for intercity passenger rail service'' but specifies no amount.
Under the council's plan, a new subsidiary of the National Railroad Passenger Corp. - Amtrak's official name - would conduct train operations, ultimately franchising out some or all routes through competitive bidding.
Another subsidiary would own, operate and maintain the tracks, property and stations now under Amtrak's control.
``The council believes that, as is the case throughout our free-market economy, competition would drive down costs and improve service quality and customer satisfaction,'' the executive summary says.
The council voted 8-1 on Jan. 11 to approve the basic outlines of the plan and will vote Thursday on the final product.
Congress created the council as part of an overhaul that gave Amtrak until Dec. 2, 2002, to begin operating without government subsidies. The council voted 6-5 in November that Amtrak will not achieve that goal, a finding that gave the panel 90 days to come up with a restructuring plan.
Amtrak President George Warrington said the council's November vote cost Amtrak $52 million because it forced some pending business deals to fall apart.
The rail labor division of the AFL-CIO's transportation trades department failed last week to persuade a federal judge to block release of the council's report.
On the Net: Amtrak Reform Council: http://www.amtrakreformcouncil.gov
Amtrak: http://www.amtrak.com
AP-NY-02-07-02 0835EST
Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
Now that the Republican mandated bs has been published complete with the privatisation fantasy (how soon they forget the history) its time to demand of our Congress a serious and ongoing funding for a real functional national rail system.
This looks too much like what we have endured in the UK. Don't do it!
Well glory be ... according to our local paper, the primary force behind the demolition of Amtrak is the "Libertarian" CATO INSTITUTE, a "think tank" created by MICROSOFT ... glad I didn't keep my copy of MSTS ...
This looks too much like what we have endured in the UK. Don't do it!
At least in the UK, two of the franchises work:
- The Chiltern Railway (everything out of London Marylebone)
- The Island Line (the Isle of Wight)
That should mean that Metro North and the Staten Island Railway will continue to work and everything else will get really messed up if they go along with that idea :)
Nice analogy between Staten Island Railway and Isle of Wight Railway. Which do you think will happen first, tunnel under the Solent or tunnel to Brooklyn?
(This looks too much like what we have endured in the UK. Don't do it! )
I think they learned from the UK that the infrastructure has to be a public responsibility. They might privatize the trains, but not the tracks.
Well shows you now that we're back with the "Peruvian marching powder party" in office, just how bad their noses have been burned. How exactly are they going to bid out Amtrak service on CSX and NS trackage? I mean considering that Amtrak only owns portions of the NEC as far as I know?
Wouldn't this require a "taking" of private property? Could you see CSX allowing NS to run intercity passenger trains on their tracks? I guess I'm missing something here - at least in the UK, the government actually owned the tracks that they sold off. :)
Until last week or so, there was a sign on the wall of the West Side Fulton Street IRT Station that read:
"World Trade Center
Walk 3 Blocks West"
I had hoped that this sign would remain up as a tribute to the WTC. But while walking in the station last week, I noticed that it was gone. I don't know if TA workers took it down or if someone stole it for a souvenir.
Hope it wasn't discarded. Maybe it'll go back up when the WTC is rebuilt.
I agree with you. I guess someone took it down because they don't want people to believe that sign (not literally) when the WTC is not there.
I have a WTC 2002 Memorial Calendar which shows articulate shots of the towers in many perspectives. It always reminds me of how it was prior to Sept. 11.
: (
yea i know how u feel. I never noticed how many pictures i have of the twin towers till they were gone. i got smith 9 st shots, exhange place NJ shots and others too.
:(
It's amazing how often the WTC was photographed. I saw a movis recently and one scene showed the WTC through the arch at Washington Square park.
I was out of town for a while and when I came back even simple things like the neon sign at Hudson News at LaGuardia has a shape of the WTC, Empire St, and Chrysler as their logo. When I took off, the plane went right down the Hudson and for the fist time since, saw NYC and Ground Zero from the air....really sad. We were already pretty high at that point and can't imagine how those poor people felt when those planes flew almost the same path, and so much lower to hit the buildings.
Also, HOME ALONE 2, Lost in New York shows two perspectives of the towers, where Kevin looks through the binoculars on top of the roof of the observatory area.
In minor sequels or shows produced after Sept. 11, they don't usually show the WTC towers even if they have an old visual, probably because they don't want to remind viewers of the tragic incident, which will never expunge from our lives.
I was out of town for a while and when I came back even simple things like the neon sign at Hudson News at LaGuardia has a shape of the WTC, Empire St, and Chrysler as their logo. When I took off, the plane went right down the Hudson and for the fist time since, saw NYC and Ground Zero from the air....really sad. We were already pretty high at that point and can't imagine how those poor people felt when those planes flew almost the same path, and so much lower to hit the buildings.
If it's any consolation, the people in the planes probably never knew what happened. A flight attendant on one of the planes was talking with (IIRC) the airline's operations center when the plane hit. She said something to the effect that she saw water and buildings, when suddenly the call terminated. I would imagine that everyone on the planes died just about instantaneously when the planes hit the towers and disintegrated.
the neon sign at Hudson News at LaGuardia has a shape of the WTC, Empire St, and Chrysler as their logo.
And, saddest of all (to me), so does the logo of the FDNY. The department has already said it has no intention of changing the skyline in the logo.
In addition the "Welcome to New York" sign at LaGuardia has a great old photo of the New York Skyline. It really made me sad looking up at that, yet I hope they don't change it.
Maybe they're worried about the pall of gloom Downtown. They shouldn't have bothered. It won't help. I took the ferry to Staten Island for the first time since the disaster -- a meeting with the people who are redoing the signals on SIRT. On the way back, there was no disguising what was missing.
Until last week or so, there was a sign on the wall of the West Side Fulton Street IRT Station that read:
"World Trade Center
Walk 3 Blocks West"
I had hoped that this sign would remain up as a tribute to the WTC. But while walking in the station last week, I noticed that it was gone. I don't know if TA workers took it down or if someone stole it for a souvenir.
A souvenir hunter, I'd say.
I haven't had the time to be here latly but I came across this and thought people might be interested.
Notice to Regional Planning Commissions: January 22, 2002
Public Meetings Scheduled for High Speed Rail Study
We are pleased to announce that the first series of public meetings
have been scheduled
for the Boston to Montreal High Speed Rail Feasibility Study. The
meetings are open to the
public, and all individuals interested in the future of transportation
in the Boston to Montreal
corridor are encouraged to attend.
The meetings will start at 6 p.m. with a half-hour open house,
followed by the formal
presentation beginning at 6:30 p.m. The schedule is:
* Massachusetts: Monday, February 11, 2002 at Gallagher Intermodal
Transportation Center at 100 Hale Street in Lowell.
* New Hampshire: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 at the New Hampshire
Department of Transportation John O. Morton Building at 1 Hazen Drive
in
Concord.
* Vermont: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 at the Pavilion Auditorium at
109
State Street in Montpelier.
The Vermont Agency of Transportation in partnership with the State of
New Hampshire
and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and in conjunction with the
Federal Railroad
Administration is sponsoring the study. In late 2000, this Boston to
Montreal corridor was
included as part of one of the nation's three new High Speed Rail
Corridors designated by the
Federal Railroad Administration. The principal objectives of high
speed rail service are to reduce
congestion associated with highway and air travel and provide an
alternate way to travel.
Phase I of the Boston to Montreal High Speed Rail Study will be
focused on developing
preliminary service projections, identifying institutional and policy
issues, and documenting basic
existing infrastructure. The corridor is about 325 miles in length;
roughly equal to the Northeast
high speed rail corridor between Boston and Philadelphia.
A website has been developed as part of a public outreach campaign to
generate interest
and identify issues for high speed rail service. The site is located
at www.bostonmontrealhsr.org
and includes an overview of high speed rail, a description of the
corridor, links to other related
sites and an up-to-date schedule of the Phase I activities, including
future meeting dates.
Scott Bascom of the Vermont Agency of Transportation - project manager
for the study –
said that the team’s public outreach goals are to provide
“full coordination and communication
with key stakeholders and local communities, a proactive study
approach, and thorough
identification of potential positive and negative project
impacts” in the study process.
The study began in December 2001 and will be completed by September
2002. The study
team is led by the consulting firm of Parsons Brinckerhoff Quade &
Douglas, Inc. of Manchester,
NH.
For further information on the study please contact:
Ron O’Blenis, Project Manager
Parsons Brinckerhoff Quade & Douglas, Inc.
75 Arlington Street
Boston, MA 02116
Phone: (617) 960-4920 Fax: (617) 482-8487
Email: oblenis@pbworld.com
Interesting. But how fast could they realistically get trains to go through New Hampshire and Vermont? There's a lot of mountainous territory in those two states, especialy on the way towards Burlington, VT. And once you get north of Concord, NH, the population considerably thins out until you get to Burlington. But I will still check out the website. I think it could work. Fast train service between two major North American cities that are 325 miles. These are the types of corridors that high speed rail works best in. Are there any Canadian agencies on board for this project?
What a crock! The number of travelers between 2 medium -sized cities like Boston and Montreal can't possibly be enough to support high-speed rail. Besides, there are no significant population centers in between!. Any high-speed from Montreal should go to NY -- the terrain is smoother, the population of NY is bigger and there are cities in between (Albany). Let's spend our taxpayer money wisely on rail projects that make sense.
Actually, it could be rather quick. I rode the "Montrealer" from Newark, NJ to downtown Montreal a few times. As I recall, the quickest part of the ride was once we left Springfield MA on to the north.
*Getting* to Springfield Massachussetts -- and the long layover as they switched from electric to diesel locomotive power -- was the longest part of the trip. I seem to remember that we laid up in Springfield for something like two hours or so while they changed engines.
I think the ROW through Vermont got washed out some time ago and Amtrak has been working on restoring it ever since. With all their other money woes, I'm relatively sure it's gotten perpetually back-burnered, though...
I sort of equate Amtrak with the Bailey Bros. Building & Loan... we need this one-horse institution so people have someplace to without having to crawl to Delta/AMR/United.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I sort of equate Amtrak with the Bailey Bros. Building & Loan... we need this one-horse institution so people have someplace
to without having to crawl to Delta/AMR/United.
Or so people have a back-up mode if all air traffic gets grounded, as it was immediately after 9-11.
Mark
Now that the Republican mandated bs has been published complete with the privatisation fantasy (how soon they forget the history) its time to demand of our Congress a serious and ongoing funding for a real functional national rail system.
Thanks for all the responses.
So, why did MTA issue two separate sets of specifications? Are 142's and 142A's interchangeable in the same train set, or do we now have two incompatible sets of new equipment?
Good question. Ask da TwainDewde or CIPeter (since he works on 'em ALL DA TYME!).........and the specs (AFAIK) were the same, but Bomby and Kawasaki came back with different prototype models, and the MTA bought 'em both.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hallo! Webe #2s and #5s. Differences between R142s and R142As aren't too much per the NYCTA contracts as far as specs are concerned but we have two different manufacturers and the Kawasaki is the newest. Understand that my experience is directly related to the Bombardier R142s and that is where my 'hands on' IS. They both use Vapor door control systems, Wabco braking and controls. The major differences is in the trucks, propulsion and motor control. R142s have H shaped trucks that allow full floating axles while the R142As have a solid traditional truck that allows the axle up/down movement only. They both use AC propulsion packages (as against DC motors) of their own design along with regenerative braking...Bombas system searches for a 'ripple' on the third rail (doesn't work...turned off) while the Kawasaki searches for a 'carrier signal.' Other than intrinsict software and general appearance, they are pretty much the same and drive the same. I expect that Kawasaki is a little more serious about putting a revenue earning product on the rails and the riding public will see more of them. CI Peter
...Bombas system searches for a 'ripple' on the third rail (doesn't work...turned off) while the Kawasaki searches for a 'carrier signal.'
What does this refer to and how does it effect regenitive breaking
Does anybody have an extra 2002 "official" New York city subway / elevated train map, they can sell me? In the past, I've tried writing to the "MTA" but have never gotten a reply ( the same response I've had from the "Yankees"! ).
Call this number:
NYCTA Customer Service at (718) 330-3322 (M-F, 9 AM - 5 PM)
And they will send you one for free.
Thank you NotchIt for the info.
And don't let anyone try to sell you one, they are free. If MTA doesn't come through, anyone on SubTalk will send you one for free.
FYI - I think the latest one is December 2001. You might wait a while if someone thinks you want one that says 2002!!!
Actually the current map is dated "January 2002"
Hey, I called and ask them to send me "the Map". Instead I got sent two bus maps.
I know, I've had some problems getting the right items too.
Sometimes it take 2 or 3 time until they get it right.
The same has happened to me. Thanks to a fellow SubTalker I have been able to get maps.
you might call them back and ask for the latest subway map.
It is actually illegal to offer The Map for sale (it says so on the inside) unless the seller has written permission from the MTA.
But that never stops anyone. Just look at the auctions on ebay.
One guy is selling a version for $.01 as the minimum bid. Sounds silly, right? But when you look at the details he wants $4.95 for s&h.
Tell that in Chinatown to the tourists. I've heard someplaces sell the offical transit maps for at least $3. Label over the word FREE.
I don't think they say FREE anymore. Looking at NotchIt's scan and at my map, I can't find where it says free.
It is free. I am looking at the subway side of the 1/02 map. On the bottom left it states "This map may not be sold or offered for sale without written permission from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority."
Sure some people may try to sell the map and some may buy it but the seller is subject to criminal penalties if they are caught.
You're right!
I used a little rubber stamp to print FREE on the maps when I worked there years ago.
I just called the number from London, England. The lady at MTA said there was no problem in mailing the January 2002 map out here. I find that amazing.
Now if you actually get the map, that would be amazing! :-)
>>I just called the number from London, England. The lady at MTA said there was no problem in mailing the January 2002 map out here. I find that amazing.<<
Why should that be a problem ?
If you're a tourist coming to New York and need a map to navigate the city, they should send it without hesistation. Maps are send free to anyone who resquests one, it is never stated for USA residents only.
Bill "Newkirk"
What info did you want from the Yankees? Maybe I can help.
I wanted a pocket schedule.
You'd have a better chance if you went to one of their Clubhouse stores (i.e.: South Street Seaport plaza, between South & Water Streets, 5th Avenue and 37th Street, amongst [possibly] a few more)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Thanks for the info. unfortunately I don't live in New York city.
Oh....hehe....did you try their website?
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/nyy/schedule/nyy_schedule_calendar.jsp?m=4&y=2002&club_context=nyy
(that's their official online schedule)....and what's BAD is that they're PLAYING ON SEPTEMBER 11th!!!!!!! (against Baltimore here in NY)
Stuart, RLine86Man
There'll probably be a special tribute. It should be nice to see.
Yeah..........I'm gonna do my best to get tickets....or if I can't, I'm going to record the game--the tribute or ceremony will probably take place before game time (7:05)
Stuart, RLine86Man
CNN just ran a report called "The Tortoise (sp?) and the Hare". It compared the train vs. a plane from NYC to DC; Penn to Union via Ac. Exp. and LGA > National via Delta Shuttle respectively. The reporter broke it down by cost and time. The flight option took just over 3 hours (with extremely helpful traffic from Midtown and a brief check-in/security procedure - he arrived just 1 hour before his flight) and cost about $250. When taking the train he pointed out how easy it is to access the train (also raising security concerns in the process), alluding to how the passengers seem to have more freedom while traveling, and that it cost about $100 less. He interviewed several persons providing opposing viewpoints.
Alltogether, I found the piece to be favorable to the rails. It would have been even moreso, if a more accurate depiction of traveling to the airport was presented (he left at 8:05 for a 9:30 flight, the plane was delayed in a more typical fashion (his was only late 20 minutes) and other, increasingly more usual, security issues would have been raised (see BWI as of 10 miutes ago).
More than likely, the piece will be repeated all throughout the day, so catch it if you can. Sorry if this was posted already, but when i started typing it hadn't yet.
-Matt
the plane was delayed in a more typical fashion (his was only late 20 minutes)
Actually shuttle flights have had excellent on-time records over the last few months, thanks to the drastic drop-off in air travel and cutbacks in airline flight schedules. (Plus, bad weather doesn't seem to have played a big role this winter.) Someone posts monthly comparisons of Acela Express and air shuttle on-time stats over at trainorders.com, and the air shuttles are doing significantly better than Acela Express right now.
i can't find it on Trainorders.com. Could you give me a link?
A Washington paper did this a while ago. They sent four reporters out with the following results:
- Air 2 hr 42 min
- Rail 3 hr 21 min
- Car 3 hr 48 min
- Bus 4 hr 55 min (but this reporter just missed a bus that would have made his trip more competive)
Mr rt
What type of locomotive is this?
That LOOKS like an AlphaEchoMike (AEM)-Seven (AEM-7)..............but I'll let someone answer fo' sho'.
Meow. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
It's a P40 or P42. It can't be an AEM7, because if you read the caption on the site the photo is linked from, it says 'Pittsburgh'. Also note the lack of wire.
-Hank
Yeah, I already got that......
Stuart, RLine86Man
This is a AEM7
By the protruding rollers - I'd say it was an Atlas AEM-7 in O-gauge
It's a P42 model.
You can view the P42s here.
Chaohwa
It is a GE P42 diesel engine in the new Phase V scheme.
The P42 Genesis Locomotive.
#65 to which you see here is a picture of one of my favorite locomotives built, "the AMD-103/P42DC" Genesis locomotive made by General Electric. This locomotive came originally with the solid red, white and blue stripe with "AMTRAK" across the front. I guess, along with the newest locomotives, Amtrak will eventuall repaint all of their Genesis engines. Some already have the phase IV scheme.
The body style is GE's Genesis. Amtrak has several models:
P-32, P-40, P42. You'll sometimes have them refered to as DM32 or P-32-AC/DM or PD42-B. They are now showing up in service with local carriers, e.g. I was onboard a NH at the recent Croton-Harmon open house.
The above can't be confused with the elect. box cabs (photo in another part of this thread), i.e. AEM7 or ALP-44. Also they don't look very much like the other "covered wagon" passenger design, i.e. F-40s.
A good source of photos of current equipment is Railpace magazine.
Mr rt__:^)
I was perusing this nice website (http://davesrailpix.railfan.net)
I came across this subject called "Traction around North America". I then found this picture of two old commuter RR coaches on the Toledo & Lake Erie which must be a tourist operation.
The paragraph above the pic states coach #407 was a New York Central commuter car and careful examination revealed the old number as Penn Central #1276. Photo by Frank Hicks.
I seen pictures of the NYC MU's that operated out of Grand Central and could swear they had small windows. Originally they had arch windows that were later plated over. The cars look very much like Lackawanna MU's. But on car # 408 there is what seems to be a whistle above the front windshield, the Lackawanna Mu's didn't have whistles but horns mounted to the side of the clerestory roof end.
Sorry I don't have a link but see if you can access the site at
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/hicks/htm/hicks004.htm
Is this an error or not ? Legend has it that none of the NYC MU's were saved. Also #1276 doesn't seem to be a number used for the Lackawanna MU's. Your help would be appreciared.
Bill "Newkirk"
There is almost no doubt that 407 is a former EL trailer car. The door is a give-away. Check out this image for comparason.
http://gelwood.railfan.net/mu/el-m4321bgs.jpg
408 is more of a mystery. It is definitly not an EL power car, as the truck are different and it is missing that little cooling vent thing above the door. I have to run, check out this page. It has a list of all surviving DL&W MU's
http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/mu/mu.html
On the Erie Lackawanna, 1276 was a 1,500 HP, 4 axle EMD road switcher, class MFSE 15 D-4 (GP7) I remember her fondly.
Hello, hello! I noticed this thread on a photo I took, so I felt I must put in my worthless 2 cents.
First of all, the 400-series numbers were applied by the tourist line and are NOT the cars' numbers while in MU service. When I visited this silly little tourist operation in Grand Rapids, MI, I though they were Lackawanna MU cars at first also (actually, they do have a Lack MU - it's in storage, in pretty poor shape). These two cars, though, are definitely not Lackawanna MU cars. Under the gacky blue paint I could make out the Penn Central mating worms decals on the ends of the car, and - interestingly enough - the original (well, not really) Penn Central numbers were still painted on the doors into the cars' vestibules! The cars' in-service numbers were:
1276 and 1292
Sorry, I don't remember which car was renumbered to which number by this tourist line. I have no idea who built the cars or when, or what their NYC numbers were (actually I suppose they could be ex-New Haven). If ANYONE can help, I would really appreciate it.
BTW, the cars are not in very good shape. It appeared that the steps and coupler had fallen off the end of one car, and during a look inside the other car I discovered that the entire belt rail had rusted away at one corner of the car so that the window had simply fallen out. Yecch. They are, however, the only cars of their type I know to have been "preserved."
Frank Hicks
No, they're definitely NOT ex-New Haven.
They very well could be ex-New York Central. As Bill mentioned in the first post of the thread, NYC's did have the smaller windows with the arches above -- which were plated over. However, there WAS a newer series of NYC m.u. cars that had larger windows as well. (I went to Cardinal Hayes HS, right next to the Hudson & Harlem Lines, 1964-1968, and all the small-window cars with the arches plated over were gone by then....)
The rest of the details DO match what I remember on those old NYC cars. The number series on the cars was 42-4300's.....ahead of the St. Louis 4500's of 1950. NYC also DID have the whistle and that tiny marker light that shows in the photo that Bill gave the URL for. As for the car door matching the old Lackawanna cars as Mike mentions, there is a photo of one of the old NYC high-window MU cars (in Penn central markings) in "When The Steam Railroads Electrified" and the door appears to match (the photo is slightly distant). I cannot tell the car number in the photo.
Steve, thanks for the data on NYC MU's. I know very little about the NYC electrification, and what I do know I learned from "When The Steam Railroads Electrified" - a book which is excellent, but doesn't have a whole lot on the NYC MU cars. As for that door, it certainly could be a retrofit from a Lackawanna car. As I said, this tourist line does have a Lack car, so they may have exchanged some parts - and they may have also gotten it off of another Lack car they scrapped.
Has there ever been a book written that contains hard data on the NYC MU cars - years built, number series, etc?
Frank Hicks
...and railfan for a day, when and where would you go?
Would you go back to the mid 1800's and ride a steam powered LIRR train through "Bob Diamond's" tunnel..
or would you go back to the late 1800's and ride in the age of the el's, or 1903 on the newly built IRT.
Maybe you would go back to the 1970's and ride a graffiti covered "AA" train, who knows?
Me? I'd probably go back to around 1910's, ride the newly built Brighton line to Coney Island, then take a surface route on the Culver Line up to the 5th Avenue EL and over the Brooklyn Bridge, where I will then ride some of the Manhattan ELs.
Me.......I'd take one of the first IRT subway trains (on the original City Hall-145th Street line) all the way from City Hall to 145th.
Or I'd take the 8th Avenue/Washington Heights/Fulton Street IND on it's SECOND day of operation..........even before it got connected to the Rockaways via the (now) "ex"-LIRR Far Rockaway Branch.
Stuart, RLine86 and 6LineCityHall and ALineEuclidAvMan
I'd want to ride Philadelphia's 2nd Street spur that branched off the Market Frankford line.
Does anyone know where I could find a map showing its route?
Mark
Actually it was the Delaware Avenue Spur, or AKA the Ferrie Line, which was really part of the Market Street Elevated Company's line to Upper Darby.
The original line traveled east to 2nd Street station. After the stop at 2nd Street the trains turned north to climb out of the subway above Front Street. The Delaware Avenue branch turned east again to complete a 180 degree turn to positon the elevated structure over Delaware avenue going southbound. There were two station stops - at Market/Chestnut and South Street. If you remeber the el before the 1977 relocation onto I-95, it would be easier to visualize this. Prior to 1977, the el climbed out of the subway after turning north just passed 2nd Street. It traveled above Front Street instead of the median strip of I-95 as it does today.
The Ferries line was the original line, and when the Frankford extension was built by the City of Philadelphia in 1922, there was a junction controlling the train movements until the Ferries line was discontinued.
Keep in mind this was before the Ben Franklin Bridge was built, and the ferries, owned by the PRR & RDG, plied the Delaware River with great frequency. Trains from the shore terminated in Camden, and the passengers used the railroad ferries to gain access to Philadelphia. The Ferries line provided good connection and distribution for passengers to 'downtown' and west to 69th Street.
The branch expired on 5/8/1939, after the ferries discontinued their service due to competion from the Ben Franklin Bridge.
A great book, now out-of-print, is by Dr. Harold Cox. 'The Road To Upper Darby' gives a complete history of the MKT-FKD right up to delivery of the 1960-61 Budd built M3's. The information that I've provided comes from this book.
Jim Kramer
formally of Philadelphia
No idea where a map of that could be found, though I'll tell you if I find one later today.
Personally, I'd ride the ORIGINAL Broad Street Line. As far as I recall, it was double-tracked, Olney to City Hall, with all existing stops, since 1928. But I wasn't born until the last two numbers of its opening year were reversed.
1930 - Walnut-Locust and (Lombard-)South. (Lombard wasn't part of the original name)
1938: Ellsworth-Federal, Tasker-Morris, Snyder Ave.
1956: Fern Rock (Yard access track and above ground carwash existing since construction, this was the date of the terminal opening and revenue service)
1959: Express track added, Walnut to Erie
1973: Oregon and Pattison.
1991: Express tracks added, Erie to Olney.
1932: Opening of the Broad-Ridge Spur.
I'd love to have attended every first for this line... that, and maybe ride the first Metro trains on the Orange/Blue Lines.
Actually it was the Delaware Avenue Spur, or AKA the Ferries Line, which was really part of the Market Street Elevated Company's line to Upper Darby.
The original line traveled east to 2nd Street station. After the stop at 2nd Street the trains turned north to climb out of the subway above Front Street. The Delaware Avenue branch turned east again to complete a 180 degree turn to positon the elevated structure over Delaware avenue going southbound. There were two station stops - at Market/Chestnut and South Street. If you remeber the el before the 1977 relocation onto I-95, it would be easier to visualize this. Prior to 1977, the el climbed out of the subway after turning north just passed 2nd Street. It traveled above Front Street instead of the median strip of I-95 as it does today.
The Ferries line was the original line, and when the Frankford extension was built by the City of Philadelphia in 1922, there was a junction controlling the train movements until the Ferries line was discontinued.
Keep in mind this was before the Ben Franklin Bridge was built, and the ferries, owned by the PRR & RDG, plied the Delaware River with great frequency. Trains from the shore terminated in Camden, and the passengers used the railroad ferries to gain access to Philadelphia. The Ferries line provided good connection and distribution for passengers to 'downtown' and west to 69th Street.
The branch expired on 5/8/1939, after the ferries discontinued their service due to competion from the Ben Franklin Bridge.
A great book, now out-of-print, is by Dr. Harold Cox. 'The Road To Upper Darby' gives a complete history of the MKT-FKD right up to delivery of the 1960-61 Budd built M3's. The information that I've provided comes from this book.
Jim Kramer
formally of Philadelphia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The book has been reprinted and is once again for sale at SEPTA's Museum Store. I would highly recommend it.
Jim: Thats some great information. It looks like a trip to Philly is in order, besides I could go for some chesse steaks. Thanks you.
Larry,RedbirrdR33
Larry:
Unfortunately, any remnants of the line disappeared when the El was relocated into the I-95 median strip.
All you can do now is go down to Delaware Avenue and try to visualize the route.
Jim Kramer
Formally of Philadelphia
My three time travel fantasies are:
Culver Express, Chambers St to Coney Island (though I think it actually terminated at Kings Highway);
LIRR Rockaway Beach line, Penn Station to Far Rockaway;
Passenger service on the LIRR Bay Ridge Line, post grade crossing elimination.
If i can travel back in time it is to ride the old R100's on the D line in the 1960's and 1970's when i went to the old Yankee Stadium as a kid.
Charlie "Chud" Muller Bedford Park Blvd Bronx.
Culver Exp began and terminated at Kings Hwy, but was Express only under 4th Ave. El it was a local, but it ran on the old Nassau St Loop
I would go back to 1972 when the MBTA had just started coloring its lines they ran as the following:
The Orange Line: Charlestown EL ran from Sullivan Square to Forest Hills via the Washgington Street EL. Pullman Standard cars 01100 series were new.
The Blue Line: East Boston Tunnel had rolling stock running that consisted of 1924 Pullman Standard cars and 1951 St.Louis cars. And when you got to Revere Beach there were Amusements there with a Midway along the Beach.
The Red Line: Cambridge Dorchester had rollingtocek consisting of 1400 Pullman Standards (BlueBirds) and 1500 & 1600 Pullman Standards (SilverBirds) running in srvice.
The Green Line: Central Subway Had numerous PCC's running 3 long in service and the Arborway ran to the Arborway. Stevie :)
If I could go back in time it would ______________________________________________________
________________. Take a guess.
The opening of the Brighton line and the scrapping of the Standards? :-)
The Brighton? You are the new Don Rickles Rob. How come Sherman missed you on his last trip down there? I can see your humor. I am now taking a second look at the Standards, though. To me they just didn't match up for looks or pizaaz with the D Triplexes. Those were just magnificent cars, and they ran on my favorite train.
He would take a Brighton to Ebbets Field and watch the Yankees beat the Dodgers in 41-47-49-53 & 56. Only once the Bums won/
For the record I never saw the Yankees beat the Dodgers at Ebbets Field, but I did see the Dodgers beat the Yankees one time at Yankee Stadium in a World Series game.
I told you I was at Larson s Pewrfect Game
You must have had a hell of a time. It was a dark day for two reasons. One the no hitter, two, it was exactly a year from that day when the Dodgers announced they were deserting Brooklyn.
And a few weeks after that, trolley service in Brooklyn came to an end. Then a few weeks after that, I was born.......
I'd file a fetal injury claim. :)
Then again, we may have to file paternity charges against Unca Fred. Nevermind. :)
1956 was a very good year for me. I was a hell of a baseball player that summer, but within two years I had lost most of my ability and knew that there was no chance in heaven that I will make it to the pros.
I've been meaning to ask you: did you ride on LA's streetcars at all? I've always said that if I'd been born in LA instead of South Bend, I would have remembered them; my memory stretches back even before March of 1963, which was when streetcar service in LA ended.
Was in that town in the mid-sixtys & rode the Green to Arborway, a Dallas car to North Eastern Univ., but wasn't enough of a railfan to experience a lot that existed then, e.g. freights on the water front, trackless trolleys, or even note the difference in cars of the subway lines.
Have a map from then that I'm taking very good care of NOW.
Mr rt__:^)
Well, if given only one whack at the Wayback Machine, my first choice would be to disembark in Weehawken in 1900 or so and ride the NYO&W-RW&O-Wabash through sleeper to Chicago. Given an unlimited pass, I'd try to work in, inter alia, the Olympian Hiawatha circa 1954 (post-dome, pre-repainting into the UP scheme), the Florida East Coast to Key West, and the Colorado Midland. Also, in a field more relevant to Subtalk, the New York, Westchester & Boston.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I would ride a train from Boston to Philly and then out to Chicago on the New Haven and then the PRR around about 1940 or so. Nice healthy stop at Penn Station.
I'd Depart Grand Central Station on the 20th Century Limited Destination, Syracuse. once there, I'd ride the Syracuse, Lakeshore and Northern (Kuhlman interurban cars) to Oswego and back, then catch a streetcar to DeWitt so I could hang around the NYC engine terminal and develop BLACK LUNG from all the STEAM COAL POLLUTION then I'd sleep overnight at the new Hotel Syracuse and board the next day's Century to Chicago and then back to NYC.
Maybe around 1947, Myrtle Ave L, Lexington L, 3rd Ave L, Steam in Jersey on everything, Steam on the LIRR and NYC. Brooklyn fu;ll of Trolleys across the Willy B and Brooklyn Bridge, 3rd Ave Railway still alive
I'd go back to some year between 1941 and 1951 and ride:
(1) Chicago, North Shore, and Milwaukee, both
(a) the Shore Route, which ended service in 1954 or '55 IIRC.
(b) the inland or Skokie Valley Route, which ended with the end of service in 1963.
After 1941 because, of course, I want to be able to ride an Electroliner.
(2) Chicago, Aurora, and Elgin, while it still ran all the way into downtown over the L instead of terminating at Forest Park as it did in its final years.
(3) The portions of the L system that no longer exist.
(4) Some streetcar and trolley bus routes, of course.
(5) The C&NW to and from Lake Geneva.
(6) The CB&Q, to see the passengers' reaction to the bilevels when they were brand new. ;^)
(7) A nice trip on the famous Limiteds between Chicago and New York City -- the Broadway Limited one way and the 20th Century Limited in the other direction.
Three places I'd like to go... Richmond, Virginia, in the 1880s, when Frank Sprague's first successful trolley line was introduced; 1939, to the World's Fair in New York, and then a trip across the country via the Broadway Limited and the Super Chief, with a return trip via Canada and the Canadian (okay, so it's more than a day); Washington, DC, in the early '50s, when PCCs and other streamlined cars ruled the streets and the pride of Pennsy's electric fleet (plus a bunch of diesels from other roads) ruled Union Station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd like to go back to 1864 in Atlanta around Mid-November to be exact. Then I could accompany my pal Cump on a journey to Savannah. Quite a fun trip it would be. I could see the sky right now alighting from flaming dwellings.
Fred, now I KNOW I need to find that grape shot before we meet :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No need to find any grapeshot friend because my little blurb was only for home consumption. I just knew I would get a little rise out of you. Have you been keeping up with some of our posts. A bunch of us are planning to get together next October and, needless to say, I would be delighted to meet you in person and ride some rails. Of course, your job could determine if you could come to New York at this time but maybe you can start thinking ahead. It would be a real hoot.
Fred almost got Lynched here in Winchester Va when he was here in August by the Johhny Rebs
But I had Bob here to protect me. All he had to do was give that old Kings Highway Jewish stare and those damn rebels took to the hills.
BTW Regards from Brook-Lynn and here mom from Marios Pizza in Berryville
Did you really run into her again? Good deal. Send back my regards. What a small world, eh? Tell them not to get captured by any Confeds.
Well, assuming my current employer doesn't decide to downsize me in the next go-round, I should be able to come... I work in New Jersey so I'm there more than I'm home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's great news Anon. Things are starting to pick up. By April we should have a good idea of just how many guys are going to be able to show and for how long. One I know for sure. I want at least one or two companions with me at all times.
Fred, did you know that long after Sherman burned Atlanta, he came back for a special event. When his train arrived, the mayor was going to greet him, and he said "Every run!! Sherman going to burn the city down again!" Everybody laughed and Sherman said how nice the city looked compared to his last "vaction" here.
You know I did NOT know that. Shame on me. I've read many books on Sherman, including Marzalak's "Sherman-A Soliders Search For Order." I never came across that. Very interesting. Hard to believe, though. Even today when h is name in mentioned in Southern circles people get real emotional about it. In fact, Sherman did like the South and was an administrator at a Louisiana Military School just before the war.
Fred: I will make your get together in October. BTW I'll give you another crack at the two free hot dogs at Nathan's. What was the only state to seceed from the Confrederacy?
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
West Virginia.
West Virginia in 1863, I can taste those dogs now.
Fred: I see that you got the right answer, though I noted that American Pig answered it correct also. Nevertheless I will be glad to treat you to those hot dogs. BTW, you never did send me Lincoln's Gettyburg Address. I have a lot of mail here that I would like to forward to him.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
2310 Hwy 30 Gettysburg Pa
Thanks Bob.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, How many Gettysburg addresses do you need?
Karl: I have at least one that I know of. It belongs to a famous Brooklyn railfan. I would like to get my hands on Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. I guess its like a "Papal Bull." I didn't know that they had bovines at the Vatican.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah and the local people from West Virginia, are bigger Crackers then the people from Virginia around here
I don't have access to a WayBak machine, Mr. Peabody's controlling it right now.
As to Fred's comment about the burning of Atlanta, today happens to be the 98th anniversary of the second day of Baltimore's Great Fire of 1904. It started with a minor fire in a dry goods wharehouse, owned by the John E. Hurst Company. A smoke explosion sent flaming brands over a two block area, and downtown Baltimore was ablaze. It was 11:30 AM on Sunday, February 7 1904. Thirteen blocks of downtown Baltimore were destroyed, from Sharp Street on the west, Jones Falls on the east, Pratt Street on the south and Lexington on the north.
The fire burned for two days, and the glow was visable at night as far north as Wilmington.
Streetcar service was interupted and the main Powerhouse was put out of comission, but not destroyed. The company's main office was in the Continental Building, which was destroyed Sunday night. The main clerk on duty requistioned every flatcatr the United Railways owned and moved 90% of the company records to the Madison Avenue Carhouse (out of the burnt district), saving them.
Fast action got all the streetcars out of downtown by early afternoon, not one streetcar was lost.
Wow! I've read about that 1904 fire in a couple of books deatailing the period from 1877-1919, what they call the era of the emerging modern America. It was miraculous not one streetcar was lost, but, of course, the city of Baltimore suffered enormous damage.
13 Blocks, west to east, 5 to 6 blocks north to south. Virtually every building in the downtown area was either totally destroyed or suffered
serious damage. The Continental Building, where the United's offices were located, was complely burned out. The heat was so intense that the brass and iron elevator cages were warped into graceful shapes. That (and several other buildings) were rebuilt and still stand today.
The fact that no streetcars were destroyed wasn't a miracle, it was good, smart management. When the fire started, the lines were cut back from the fire sites. As the fire grew, the lines got shorter and shorter, but service continued on the unaffected parts of the system until the central power house went off-line late Sunday evening. The Power house and boiler room were not affected, but a substation behing the power house suffered fire damage. By early Monday the United had a temporary substation in operation and service continued. After the fire was out, streetcar service was restored as soon as the streets were cleared. In fact, much of the debris was carried away by the dump cars of the United.
By 1906 many of the buildings destroyed were well on their way to being rebuilt. By 1908 no trace of the disaster was visable.
(1)I would go back to when the B-Way Expresses started and see how people reacted to the changes.
(2)I would go to 12/17/01 and see what people thought about the changes when the (V) started.
My first choice would be around 1875 when all the steam railroads were still around, going to Coney Island, Brighton, Manhattan and Rockaway beaches.
Second choice is the 1920's-1930's when both the Els and the Subway were in operation.
Second choice is the 1920's-1930's when both the Els and the Subway were in operation.
I think around 1937 would be best because one could get the IND, plus still all the els.
Me? I'd go back to the 1930's, when the IND was new and most of the els were still running.
Ride those IRT Lo-Vs. I was born in 1957 and I rode the trains a lot in my early life. I may have been on one when I was 5 or 6, but really cannot remember. My stop was in Brooklyn (Smith & Carroll) so I have a lot to remember about those R1-9s. One of my grandparents were in Park Slope (stop Union St./4 Ave.) and I remember riding what me and my brother coined "those old BMTs", the BMT standards.
You're in luck that there are still some Lo-Vs & R-1/9s around that operate, plus there reason to hope that a set of 3 Standards will be back.
I don't feel the need to go to far back, so would be satisfied with some of the trains that I MISSED, e.g. Q Types, and I would love to ride behind a GG-1 or in a NH Wash Board or hopped a freight on the "Air Line" route to Boston.
Mr rt__:^)
I'd go back to the mid-'30s and ride - you guessed it - the Green Hornet from Lefferts Blvd. to Park Row over the Fulton Street el and Brooklyn Bridge. Then I'd enjoy a ride on a couple of Manhattan streetcar lines and maybe catch a Third Avenue Through Express to the Bronx and return via the Ninth and Sixth Avenue els to 14th Street. I'd finish up with a ride on Multis on a 14th Street-Fulton express - or maybe just change and go to Canarsie to ride a trolley to Canarsie pier.
So many choices!
1964
MP-54s, hit the New Haven, and ride behind a GG-1.
Also hit JFK and see a 707, DC-8. Hit the NY subway, H&M, and Newark system. And Philly too.
And the '64 world's fair.
Pick up a new Harley and a few used Knuckleheads.
And buy a used RCA CT-100 from someone :)
BTW - I've got a TV - it's got a 21FJP22, a 6BK4, 3A3, 2 6GH8s, no transistors. It was RCA's last good round CRT set. It's got UHF and is in a big console cabinet. The chassis after it is the same but has a square tube.
What chassis is it :)
CTC-4 ...
Nope. I wish it was a 4 :(
Ok, hint #2 - It was the first chassis to sell a million color sets a year.
Give us a hint. Did it have a round or square tube?
Peace,
ANDEE
Round. 21FJP22, though RCA claims some had a 21FBP22 too. Mine, being as late in the round tube era as it was, had the 21FJP22A, which was the rare earth variety (firey orange reds! though not as bad as some 70's Zeniths I've seen).
The chassis that came after mine was a square tube.
Oh yes - the 6AQ5 audio output is not on a circuit board - the very last round tube chassis RCA made had that.
BTW - this set is very close to the Sylvania DO-2 chassis, of which I have one of those too (21FKP22, replaced with an RCA Hi-Lite 21GVP22)
Train content - (Hi Dave! :) I've had to fix my Sylvania - the scope I used was a Tektronix that I lugged home on the LIRR. If you've ever seen a Tek 500 series scope (they weigh about 60 lbs and sport 80+ tubes), imagine one with a scope cam stuck to it. And the handles are busted. Fun trip. Conductor let me stand in the vestibule. BTW - the brakeman on the LIRR apparently still carries flags, flares, and other goodies in his bag. Somethings never change I guess.
The 4 was the last round tuber I knew of ... ya got me. :)
Would you be able to afford a Harley back then Phil. After all they were almost a thousand dollars!!!
[Also hit JFK and see a 707, DC-8 ...]
I should have walked next door to where I worked and boarded one of the Super Connes sitting at the TWA hangar. My very first flight was in a Air India 707. Was part of a airline employee tour so got introduced to the pilot who was waring a turban.
[And the '64 world's fair.] Saw that as a teenager in NYC, but missed Montreal. Also COULD have gone to Woodstock, but was just a week-end hippy then.
Mr rt__:^)
Expo 67 was good. You would have liked the Expo Express, not to mention the Metro. It didn't hurt to have relatives in Montreal, given the shortage of accommodations.
can i bring my digital cam
& my camcorder ??
I'd go back to October 27, 1904 to be on hand for Day One on the IRT. My eyes would be peeled for Gibbs 3352, assuming it was on the property then.
Second choice would be September of 1936. My grandfather was visiting the US and wound up his stay in New York. If I were to encounter him, I wonder if he'd figure out he was looking at his future grandson. Otherwise, I'd seek out the Triplexes on the Sea Beach (there you are, Fred!), R-1s on the A, the 6th Ave. el, Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs on the IRT, and spend some time gawking at the marvel (and Travertine marble) of Pennsylvania Station.
I'd go back to the day the Atlantic Avenue station opened on the IRT to see if the Belmont Spur actually existed or not.
Back in 1936, I think Warner Bros. shot a gangster light comedy starring: Edward G. Robinson, Anthony Quinn, and Broderick Crawford, in a flick titled "Larceny Inc." **on location**, on Sixth Avenue. At that time, they were digging the Sixth Avenue IND subway and that construction was the focal point of the movie's amusing plot. Funny flick, a classic, can't seem to get in on tape or DVD.
Back in 1936, I think Warner Bros. shot a gangster light comedy starring: Edward G. Robinson, Anthony Quinn, and Broderick Crawford, in a flick titled "Larceny Inc." **on location**, on Sixth Avenue. At that time, they were digging the Sixth Avenue IND subway and that construction was the focal point of the movie's amusing plot. Funny flick, a classic, can't seem to get in on tape or DVD.
According to the IMdB, the movie was released in 1942. Wasn't the IND in operation for some years by then? Though I suppose it might have been filmed earlier but not released for some reason ...
A couple of trivia points: the movie's plot, as described on the IMdB, sounds curiously similar to the hit Broadway show The Producers. And the movie was one of the first screen appearances for Jackie Gleason.
Go back to the 1890's plus + or - the fudge factor so I could ride from Boston to as far west as possible on Traction trollies and interurbans.
Of course I'd con Salaamallah to accompany me to record the event with muliple run bys
avid
There a thought, bet those Interurbans were great !
Mr rt__:^)
I'd go back to 1937 to ride all of the els, and get some of the original IND. I'd then go out and ride all the trolleys possible, I can take 30 for the price of one today.
I wonder, how would you handle money at that time? Wouldn't you get arrested for using weird slugs with pictures of Thomas Jefferson and strange four digit numbers like '1993' or '1999' on them?
You'd have to go to a coin shop or something and buy a load of Morgan silver dollars before you went. I think the common dates go for between $5.00 - $10.00 each.
That would still be a loss. What about buying gold?
That would still be a loss.
Not really. According to the CPI calculator a dollar in 1937 would be worth $12.53 in 2002 dollars, so still a good buy at $5.00 - $10.00 each.
What about buying gold?
Not a good buy at $100 - $150 for the most common gold $5 piece.
Maybe you could get a good buy on some paper currency or even an old transfer that expired in 1937. :-)
Not really. According to the CPI calculator a dollar in 1937 would be worth $12.53 in 2002 dollars, so still a good buy at $5.00 - $10.00 each.
I could use the leftover money to buy stock in 1935, or whenever the stock market bottomed out to buy stock for a company that existed then and still exists now (like AT&T, GE, etc). That would more than make up for any losses.
You'd need to bring silver change and Buffalo nickels.
One of the things I would like would be to go back far enough to catch a Hi-V on the Broadway (now #1) line, and retrace McClellan's route over the viaduct; about 1947. (and maybe ride the same car that made the first trip).
Just hop the turnstile.
Sarge, even grab any of those turnstile token SUCKERS ?
Used to see them do it at 116th ... yuck.
Mr rt__:^)
? If you could travel back in time...?........!
almost none of you would like it !!
no AC no HEAT !!...???
man you babies would Whine Bitch & Moan !!
& all of the rolling stock would have ........
@ RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!....ha ha !! & talk about all of you " transverse full width cab addicted folks "
U would not like it for a second !!
BUT HELL YEA I WOULD !!!
lol !!
I'd go back to the period from the early 1900's to 1950. My mother's parents had a bakery on or near Broadway and later owned an apartment building on Willoughby Ave (between Sumner & Throop-699 to be exact). My dad's parents lived on Lewis Ave across from St. John's U.
It was a time when people rode the Sumner Ave trolley to Myrtle Ave and to Brodway. I can remember my first ride on the Myrtle Ave el, standing on the outdoor platforms. At the end of the ride, the coductor went through the cars and moved the back of the seats to face the direction the train was going. My dad told me that he took me on my first trolley ride on the Sumner Ave line.
It was a time when Brooklyn had the Dodgers and the Eagle, corner candy stores and corner groceries (Meltzer & Fox). It was a time when, if you couldn't afford a doctor, you went to your local pharmacist (Colodony & Shusterhoff). When doctors made housecalls (Dr. Strongin) and you walked to school (PS 25).
I'd love to hear from anyone who remembers the old neighborhood.
? If you could travel back in time...?........!
almost none of you would like it !!
no AC no HEAT !!...???
There was heat. Also with a time machine, if I went back only to ride transit, I'd go back to the winter or fall. But since I would want to go to Coney Island, I'd buy the personal air conditioner that I saw in the Sharper Image catalog.
I'd ride all the BMT and IRT els.
But if I only one year to return to, it'd be 1969:
R1-R9 cars still running, as well as a handful of BMT standards, Myrtle Ave, Culver and Jamaica Ave els still up, new R42's, etc. Sure, I'd love to ride the older els, and the pre Chrystie Nassau loop, but 1969 would've had the most action at once for me.
I would want to make two trips:
1)Late 1930's when the Manhattan El's were still around..
2)1967 - one week before and one week after Chrystie Street.
An article in Newsday about some leaks in the "bathtub" has an interesting picture of the 1/9 route through the WTC site.
Go to http://www.newsday.com/ and click on "The Bathtub is leaking (130K)". The full URL (which you have to paste together into a single string) is:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-g1tub0207.graphic?coll=ny-homepage-more-breaking-news
(Sorry, I've misplaced the directions on how to post a URL as HTML).
You can't see the tracks themselves, but you can see the wall behind which the tracks run, and the old Hudson Tubes tunnel that runs perpendicular to and underneath the IRT tracks.
It's interesting that Newsday referrs to the portion of the bathtub shown in the picture as being "along Greenwich St" - Greenwich St may have originally run next to where that wall is, but has not since the WTC obliterated all streets in its area.
subfan
Maybe they could have said that it runs along the line of Greenwich Street. What other way do they have of mentioning the location?
After looking at the picutre they may be showing the portion of the wall along Liberty St. I looked at a map to find out.
#3 West End Jeff
No, they're definitely showing what used to be Greenwich Street before the 70s, looking northeastward from Liberty St.
You can see the damaged BMCC Building, Fitterman Hall, in the background, so it's definitely looking north and east.
One thing the photo does show is that the old Hudson Tube location is directly below the 1/9 line at Greenwich Street, which could be a problem if the Port Authority and the MTA want to build that long connecting walkway from the World Financial Center over to the Fulton Street subway complex and use the old Hudson Terminal for the new PATH station.
Since the side streets slope down about 20 feet between Church and West Streets, the walkway have to either have to be at the old mall level (now ground level, above the wall in the photo) or they'll have to bore a new PATH tube one level lower to the Hudson Terminal site, if there are any plans to lower the 1/9 tracks one level to allow the walkway to go from the WFC over to Church Street. Using the current 1/9 tracks and the old H&M tunnel would recreate the "Great Wall of Vescey Street" problem the old WTC design had, which would also wall off any planned memorial in the footprint of WTC 1 and 2 on both the north and south sides from the rest of the downtown grid. Not a people-friendly design, and it would also prevent the underground walkway from going beneath West Street to the WFC, unless it took a slope downwards in the bathtub area, after the PATH tubes begin to decend towards the Hudson River.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see what the architechts come up with for the final pedestrian/mass transit plan after looking at the cross section of the current layout at Greenwich Street.
The walkway could go deep under West St, then under the 1/9, then rise in a flight of escalators to come above the PATH but still below the N/R. But there doesn't seem to be a way to make it level without sinking both the 1/9 and the Hudson Terminal site lower than they used to be.
You might not have to sink the actual Hudson Terminal platforms, since they're another block to the east and still have to be lengthened to handle 10-car trains, meaning the old tunnels can't completely be resued (or you'll have at least one curve that will be give the 149th-Concourse jughandle a run for its money). Given that the cars' motors are better today than they were 95 years ago, they might be able to lower the tubes one level at Greenwhich Street and still have a grade that's shallow enough to get into Hudson Terminal without any major strain, even with a fully-loaded 10-car train.
Any pedestrian connection from West Street to the Fulton subway complex will have to be two levels below ground at Church Street, in order to get under the BMT tracks. So instead of have a walkway that bounces up and down between the old WTC mall level and the level of the current 1/9 tracks, better to drop the IRT tracks down 15 feet, run the PATH tubes below that and keep the walkway two levels undergorund at Church, which would leave it one level below ground at West Street and allow a straight connection to the WFC on the other side of the street.
I'm not 100% visualizing all of this, but am still wondering: Wouldn't it be cheaper for the TA and PA to coordinate on building a single station shell, with two levels separated by a mezzanine a la West 4th Street? You could run the mall through the mezzanine, go UP to the IRT, down to the PATH.
Thoughts?
In the old WTC mall, a straight line walk headed west would take you from the same level as downtown BMT platform at Church Street to one level above the IRT platform at Greenwhich St., to street level near West Street, where the escallators to the overpass from WTC 2 to the WFC was.
So because of the slope of the land down towards the Hudson, the IRT tracks are about one level lower than the BMT tracks, even though it was only a marginally longer walk downstairs from the street at Vescey to the IRT Cortlandt St. platform than it was down from the street at Church to the BMT Cortlandt St. platform (at most, the IRT is about 8-10 feet further below the natural street level than the BMT is). The IRT tracks are on the same level as the underpass from the WTC mall to the uptown BMT platform at Cortlandt was, but because of the slope, if you ran a pedestrian walkway straight across from West Street to Broadway at that level and raised up the IRT tracks to do so, the tunnel would be about 8-10 feet above the acutal street level at Vescey and West Broadway and at Liberty and Greenwhich Streets.
The Port Authority and MTA could solve that problem by creating an artificial hill on West Broadway and Greenwich around Barclay Street, where the land would rise up to meet the eventual aboveground plaza level of the new WTC site, which would also allow the IRT tunnel to rise up above the current street level. The same sort of hill could be put in on the south side of the plaza area at Liberty Street.
This really wouldn't be that bad an idea, since it would allow for a level plaza starting at Church Street and running west, the same way the old WTC plaza was set up, without creating the "wall" effect on Vescey Street that made it such an uninviting place. And the plaza could be extended all the way across to the Winter Garden at the WFC, if the overpass was made one solid structure from Vescey to Liberty, instead of two seperate bridges as was the case in the past.
The problem would be changing the topography by artifically raising the land for a block or two north and south of ground zero would also require the cooperation of the landowners on those sites, which might make things more difficult, especaially dealing with the buildings that did survive the 9/11 attack.
lol i took the E, to queens plaza to catch the R to 59 to catch the 4 to borough hall. Call it crazy but thats what railfanning is about. What made today sooo nostalgic was first off all, seeing mostly all R32s on the E lol. 2nd was whats this? a R32 on the R!! i thought it was all R46 now because of the V. Not to mention while waiting for a R at Queens plaza a F train pulls in on the Queens bound EXP! wow a F at Queens plaza. that brings back memories. not to mention it even said 6 av 53rd st local! LOL if that F train could talk it would say "NAH son dont mind me, "im just stoppin at my cousin Victors house" V train (Victor would say) "Frank what u doin hea man"!
*lmao* I like that.........Eddie (E) would say, "Wha da hell is ya doin' in this here 'hood, Frankie??" and Greg (G) would be like, "Hey, guys, can I join in????????" and Ralph (R) would be like, "Comin' thru.......exxxxcuuuuuuse me......" :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
You guys are really funny, but there's some truth in what you both are saying.. For example, when ever I will go to my uncles house, who happens to be name frank, I would always think of the F train since 179th Street was his stop.
The funny thing was, when ever the F train will come into the station, I will see his face all over it. Werd, right? Well, that's what I saw.
And since he's a fast driver, the speed that the F train accelerates to reminds me how he drives over the expressway.
N Broadway Line
Lawsy ... if Thomas the Tank Engine pulls in out of the gap relay track, everybody's going downtown for a community whiz ...
George Carlin as a C/R -- now that would be an interesting premise (They'd have to make sure `Thomas' was an R-142 to prevent George from unleashing the "Seven Words You Can't Say On a Subway P.A. System" on the unsuspecting passengers.)
LMAO J Lee that was good. Just think if the the late Sam Kinnison was a C/R what would be heard.
Sam Kinnison (if he wasn't already dead) would have made for a PERFECT NYC conductor for those canned announcements ... PERFECT. And I'm sure many conductors would agree. Announcements today are so "restrained" ...
Sam would have started his run at Wakefield, CI or wherever in the quiet mode, but would be at full boil by the time they reached the Hub or DeKalb and saved his best material for the riders in Manhattan (riders in the T/O car undoubtably wouldn't need a P.A. system to hear Sam's announcements by then, and of course if some schlub was holding the doors I'm sure he would get his own special reminder about the error of his ways from Mr. Kinnison...)
Hey gentleman what about andrew dice clay and what he would have to say about all of this LMAO.
If he responded you wouldn't be able to repeat most of it to polite company!
*lmao* Speakin' of the Man himself, one of his BEST specials was on last night on HBO Comedy...speaking of transportation, he was talking about the announcements that "flight attendants" make on the plane (and beforehand, in the terminal, prior to boarding)
Stuart, RLine86Man
GET ME TO LEE MYLES!
Sorry, I couldn't pass that up.
R142: "Get me to ProACTIV and fast!!! None of my
siblings has THIS BAD an inner complexion..
and it's bad enough that I do what the
voices in my bulks tell me to... how about
gaining some independence!??.. a cleaner
look would be a start....."
LOL whats interesting is lately its been alot more R62As on the 5. however i get into lex and 59 after seeing a R32 R which was nice enuf. I see a <5> to flatbush enter and it was a Redbird! 9010! i love the R142s but i still love the redbirds better. besides no other train bounces soo hard on that downtown express. then more nostalgia was entering grand central and sure enuf, a R62A 6 train! Whoa, i thought all the 6s are R142As. Then i am on 9010 a redbird 5, i see a Redbird 5 going uptown. sure enuf then after that Redbird 5, a Redbird 4 going uptown behind him! wow!
Also whats with this slow order on the jorlamon street tunnel. all 4/5 trains were creepin like TLC
How was the express run on going downtown? The last couple of time I've been on it, going from GCT to 14, it goes fast until 28th, and from 14 to BB, it goes fast until Bleecker. Joralemon was pretty bad too...
there has been a slow order issued.
*sigh* How bad is this "slow order"?
Memoirs of a certain 5 train
boulder-on-the-roof anyone?
Welcome back, haven't seen ya in a while... what's boulder-on-roof?
Hello N,
I was making reference to the 5 train
which recently got leveled with a boulder
(falling?) from the roof of Bowling Green.
Slow order could be a result of the constancy
of speeding trains coming out of Joralemon
(even noting scrapes on the roof of the tunnels)
and the vibrations caused by the speeds
which (may?) have been cause for the boulder
to fall and park itself a foot or three (?)inside
the front of the subway car (IIRC)...
There are only 2 R62A's in service on the No.5 Line. Also the No.6 Line is a mix of R62A's and R142A's.
The 15 MPH slow speed order in the River tube was put in place because of a condition in the river tube. During rush hour the No.4/5 get backed up to Wall Street.
I kind of got a look at the tube there are scraps along the top of the tunnel.
So there's some kind of a leak in the tunnel????? Geez...and if it causes a problem....an even WORSE problem...and I'm worried that'd close the tubes completely.....causing a REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY BIGGGGGGGGGGG problem!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
It won't be too bad because all you can do is use the connection to the old (1) and forgotten (9) route tracks.You can have the (5) use the open protion of the South Ferry and have the (4) skip the stop using the closed side of the station.
I knew you were going to say something like that, except how 'bout the pax going from BROOKLYN/CROOKLYN to Manhattan?????
Stuart, RLine86Man
I saw a 5 train yesterday where most of the cars had drop-down windows. You don't see those very often.
Once I even saw R142's in service on the 5. Numbers were in the 66 and 6700's.
Well, I rode 7821 on the 5 last weekend. I thought they'd try and avoid using the old equipment on weekends, guess not.
Is that the last car with R-21 storm doors still in service?
I hears 7773 is not.
would U have liked the good old days...??
like the lov vs & high vs ?? ...
lol !!
would U have liked the good old days...??
like the lov vs & high vs ?? ...
lol !!
no doubt! my dad got pics of lo Vs on number 7! the ultimate railfan windows!
Morning commute was uneventful. I got the T/O who alerts passengers that Grosvenor is above ground and if they wanted to avoid the rain (today it was freezing). The 37 left 3 minutes early (I barely made it) and I saw no reason for this. It was the usual driver and we didn't go any slower because of the weather, since we were only 2 minutes early when I got off. The train number was 1188, the bus was 5350A.
This afternoon, I got 5324A on the 37. The trip was a little wierd, since I normally go in the other direction. The driver was slower than the one in the morning. The 37 must be one of the only routes that does this: In the afternoon, one run is operated by Silver Spring, the other is operated by ATE (5150 was doing that trip).
Got to the platform, a train was coming in which must have just been told to Shady Grove since the destination signs were just changing. PIMS displayed the Out of Service Message until the doors opened, then changed to the right sign. A train was on the pocket with the southbound head ready but a train from Shady Grove, led by Breda 3151 came first. The seat behind the cab was taken. It seems the 35 MPH restriction is in place at the Pooks Hill portal for both directions. Got off at Bethesda, where I was informed that you are not allowed to take pictures of "special work". I was taking pictures of the leaking water in the passage from the vendors to the faregates. Went upstairs and saw 5702, meaning I now have the whole Ride-On Flxible Metro-D fleet on film to be developed. Took Cutaway 5132 home. 5298 was on the 92 (one of the trolleys), as was 5545, an Orion I, with the Route 28 free signs.
Let me also add that two of the three escalators at Bethesda were out, these used to be the longest in the world. In addition, there was a delay on the Red Line during the evening commute although I saw nothing indicating such other than trains backed up at Grosvenor, the train being sent to Shady Grove, and an announcement.
I know this has been mentioned before, but I can not remember the figures.
How long are the typical station platforms for:
1. IND
2. Eastern Division BMT
3. IRT
?
1. 600 feet. (Some IND platforms were designed to take 11 car, 60 ft. trains but this is no longer practical and the extra space has often been reclaimed.)
2. 480 feet.
3. About 510 feet.
Dan
BMT Eastern Division station platforms were originally designed for 8 car trains of 67' BMT Standards, but were a bit shorter than 8 x 67' = 536' as the 8 car trains typically overhung the ends of the platforms by 5-10', so I would guess that about 510' - 520' was more typical.
Some of these platforms may have been shortened since 1969 when the Standards last ran and the Eastern Division max. was 8 X 60' cars.
-- Ed Sachs
BMT Eastern Division station platforms were originally designed for 8 car trains of 67' BMT Standards, but were a bit shorter than 8 x 67' = 536' as the 8 car trains typically overhung the ends of the platforms by 5-10', so I would guess that about 510' - 520' was more typical.
Most BMT stations, both divisions, were 520' to 540' in length. No divisional difference in their length was considered when they were built.
Some of these platforms may have been shortened since 1969 when the Standards last ran and the Eastern Division max. was 8 X 60' cars
You mean they actually shortened some stations? Why would they have done this? Which station is an example of where this was done?
I don't suppose the dimensions of the NYC subway platforms are listed somewhere. I didn't see anything on this site?
Original Station Platform Lengths of the IND
Stevie - Just a question but how did you know all of the stuff about the MBTA in 1972? I read it and was quite intreauged (interested)
sunshine
I already downloaded it and installed it, but everytime I try to run it, I get a run-time error. What does this mean?
Did you collect the train files, uchibo and the "old objects?" You need four files installed for it to go ... details can be found here on what is needed and how to install it:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/bve_down.htm
Procedures for installation here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/bve_inst.htm
And if it's STILL broke, no need to call a car inspector, go here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/bve_tshoot.htm
Run-time error means that you probably didn't download the english string.ini, look for it on the BVE (mackoy.cool.ne.jp) site.
I finally fixed it now, so thanks. Though, I would like to fix the frame rate. It's too choppy. Is there any way to make the Sim run smooth?
Click on that little rectangular thingy on the lower left of the panel, that'll pop up a menu ... click on "Display" and move the slider bar to the left for LESS "drawing distance" ... that'll bring up the frame rate at the cost of occasional "stalls" as distant objects on the route are "drawn" ... the more complex the scenery, the more "computing power" is required, particularly with some graphics cards. Gotta find a happy balance or a meaner machine ...
233/266 MHz for a CPU and a 3D card tend to be the minimum. I have an IBM thinkpad laptop with 133 Mhz and it just won't run worth spit on that ... not enough "power" ...
I just bought a nice digital camera, a Fuji FinePix 2600 Zoom. I was testing out my camera on MARTA yesterday night to see how the pictures come out in low light. The problem is that unless I hold the camera completely still (impossible), the pictures come out blurry. I'm using the highest resolution possible (1600x1200 in fine mode), but it still doesn't look good. In regular daylight, the pictures are just fine. Check out some samples here. I reduced them to 800x600 pixels. The midtown.jpg photo I took in 1280x960 mode and it came out fine, and the ptreectr2.jpg came out fine in 1600x1200 mode, but that entrance is also brighter than the station. Any recommendations to improve the quality?
Do you have it zoomed all the way in? If so, the zoom intensifies the shaking by whatever amount zoom you have so they get very blurry. Another thing is setting the shutter speed. Try setting it to take the pic faster.
I only had zoom in the ptreectr3.jpg photo, so that explains that photo and why it was the worst, but all the other photos I didn't. I only other shutter speed I got is for slower, which I didn't use.
I have another idea... is it your focus? Are you using automatic or manual? For moving objects, it might be better to use automatic.
Try setting the ISO manually to 400, rather than leaving it on auto. I have found that the digital cameras will try to use the lowest ISO possible (and thus the longer exposure setting - which causes the blurriness).
I only got two speeds, and I was using high. However, I found that I got a light compensation feature, and I might try that.
brace you self on a hand rail,wall,garbage can.etc
The problem is that because you are shooting in low light, the shutter speed is too long (to allow enough light to enter the camera to properly expose the shot), but since the shutter speed is too long, any slight movement will cause blurring.
Like another user suggested, set your ISO as high as it can go. You might also want to consider investing in an inexpensive tri or mono pod, which will aid you in keeping the camera still.
Good Luck.
Rich G.
Are you using an external flash or the one that comes built into the camera. If you have an external flash and there's a plug in port on the digital, try that while setting the camera to the "external flash" setting, which should allow you to widen out the f-stop as much as possible (F3 or lower, if you can), while an external flash usually offers more brightness than the built-in flashes provide. The combination of a bigger flash and a wider f-stop setting should help with the blurriness problems (so long as you don't flash the T/O, of course)
I was using my Olympus C3020 to take photos out of an Amtrak train at 100 mph and I found it easier to get a non-blurred shot than w/ my film camera. Try manually setting the ISO to 400.
Its simple photography, the more you zoom in the slower your lens is (meaning the aperture or how wide the lens is open to allow for light entry) Im not sure what is the maximum F stop on that camera is but since its a point & shit it will probably be very slow (meaning high aperture or not as wide open) The only thing ican suggest for night photo with a slow lens is a tripod and slow shutter speeds. A tripod is a must for slow lenses or high depth of field night shots (F/11 -F/22)
Only problem I have with evening photography is of streetlights. I'll just get a circle of glare when taking a shot of lit streetlight. I'm assuming it is because the light is stronger than the camera's threshold level. So for streetlights dusk is the best when they are balanced out by other light.
use a single leg monopod act like you are using it like a cane until
you fire of your shot .then suddenly change up !!....
hole the monopod between your legs with the camera attached
then fire off as many as you can.. hold your breath & remain as
still as you posibly can. then quickly dissapear quietlly!!
dont shoot when the transit police are there!! ...lol!!
If you can't set up a tripod or brace the camera against something
solid, you're gonna be screwed trying to do night photography with
400 ASA "film" speed. I have a 4700 and it does 800. Even then,
freehand shooting is tough. Put the camera in shutter speed priority
mode, set it down to 1/25, which you should be able to hold still
without any external support, and take a test shot (the f stop
will automatically open up to the widest available). If the shot
comes out way too dark, you'll have to brace the camera somehow,
or use flash. Outdoors, the built-in flash won't have enough power
to illuminate the whole scene, especially at a distance. If the
shot is just a little dark, you can "push" the exposure by adjusting
it later in an image editing program with not too terrible results.
Otherwise, if you must shoot available light outdoors with no tripod,
go back to 35mm and load up some 1600 or 3200 speed film, or shell
out about $5,000 for a digital SLR with that kind of sensitivity.
to rob from atlanta... man you brought back memories 4 me !
use a single leg monopod act like you are using it like a cane until
you fire of your shot .then suddenly change up !!....
hole the monopod between your legs with the camera attached
then fire off as many as you can.. hold your breath & remain as
still as you posibly can. then quickly dissapear quietlly!!
dont shoot when the transit police are there!! ...lol!!
Thanks everyone for your responses, I'll go back later in the weekend and try them again. I'll post a follow up with the results.
if you can get away with at least a one legged monopod go for it !!
thankz.
Low light really requires ISO 800 speed if you don't have a tripod. If your camera's "high" setting isn't 800, you may need to go back to film.
Is "ISO" the same as "ASA"?
I think I meant ASA to begin with! Let's call it film speed.
There are three measures of film speed that are equivalent: ASA (American Standards Association), ISO (International Organization for Standardization), and BSI (British Standards Institute). ASA 100 = ISO 100 = BSI 100. There are also at least two other standards used; one is a Russian standard called GOST and the other is DIN (Deutsche Industrie Normen), which still appears on many film boxes today. It is a more linear system, rather than exponential; ASA 100 = DIN 21° (it uses the degree sign for some reason).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WOW, Chris, you're smart. Thanks for the info. It is much appreciated.
Hope all is well
Peace.
ANDEE
Well, in this particular case I did know the information (I sniffed a lot of darkroom fumes in my younger days, being raised largely by my great-aunt and -uncle; he was a semi-professional photographer with a complete darkroom in the spare bedroom of their flat), but a simple google search will turn it up as well - I checked my memory that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read that there's another one EI = Exposure Index.
Interesting thread, Bob... I'll hold with those who say that EI should relate to the actual exposure - in other words, what I set the camera at rather than what the film standards are. I've got three identical Canon FTbs and also five Exakta units; on two of the Canons I set the ASA dial to 64 and on the third to 100 for ASA 64 film, because some combination of meter and shutter speed error on the third unit works out to 2/3 stop overexposure otherwise. Ditto for the Exaktas - three of the five have off-speed shutters so I have to compensate by setting the meter (a hand-held Gossen that calibrates perfectly with two of the Canons) at different values, depending on which camera I'm using. (And we won't even get into what I have to do with the Rolleiflex - but for the small amount I use it it's not worth the cost of a proper overhaul.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
if you can get away with it plant down a tripod quick fire off your shot dissapear ....
open up your camera to max exposure ...
You've got two options-use a flash, or at least a monopod. Since I've started doing sports photography, I've learned quite a bit that classroom technique doesn't always work. Night games, different indoor venues, everything matters. I've been successful with my SLR in the subway with ISO 400 on a lens that will stop down to at least f4 (I currently use a 70-200 f2.8L) Anything more than f8 is truly hopeless. With 800, you lose a lot of detail. The pros these days use 3.5 Megapixel cameras or better; both Canon and Nikon make systems that use their existing top-of-the-line SLR lenses. Just about every photo you see in the paper is done with a 4MPX SLR, and those prices start around $2300. I just paid that for a lens, so that should give you an idea.
-Hank
Does anyone know where I could find pictures of modern subway signs?
Specifically, the ones I'm looking for have a black background and have phases like 'Uptown & Queens' or 'Downtown & Brooklyn'. This is for a class project, any help you could give me would be appreciated.
THanks,
mmahoney17@hotmail.com
There is a new version of The Map dated January 2002 available in the Transit Museum Gift Shop in Grand Central Terminal. It still shows the E terminating at Canal Street-Holland Tunnel but it also shows local service only on the Astoria Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Is it a multilingual version or an English-only version?
Chaohwa
The only version that I saw was the english language one.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, I posted an image of it in the other thread.
There is also a 1/18/02 version of "Getting Around Town" hand out that has a map of downtown. Main change seems to be addition of "Viewing Platform".
Mr rt__:^)
I purchased a book today at the Transit Museum Gift shop in Grand Central Terminal. It is titled"New York Transit Memories" by Harold A>Smith,90 pages,$16.95.
It is a wonderful collection of photographs of el,subway and trolley cars includung the PCC's, also included are trackless trolleys and some buses. The book is arranged by boroughs and the photgraph date from the 30's through the 60's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This 1997 book was one of the first I bought. It has a very nice wide group of equipment covered. For those that want a snap shot of trolley/bus/el/subway it's a must have, e.g. the title page shows an IRT flying by a parked pair of GM old look (bus) & TARS trolley.
Mr rt__:^)
I've seen that book at Caboose Hobbies here in Denver. IIRC there's a photo of an R-11 signed up as a 14.
[IIRC there's a photo of an R-11 signed up as a 14.]
Right you are, it's on page 54, at station with crossing gates down before her at 150th Street Canarsie. On the next page is a Trackless & on 57 is a old IRT (1937) on the UPPER deck of the Queensboro bridge.
But don't buy it if you just hate trolleys, because there are a lot of them in this book.
Mr rt__:^)
I mentioned something similar to this in a thread a couple of months ago, because the Union Square area has become such a big place to put new restaurants over the last 5-6 years. But apparently, two guys are doing more than just talking about putting a bar/restaurant in the old IRT 18th Street station, they're going before Community Board 5 to request a permit, according to Dennis Duggan.
Ideally, they'd get a permit to build an underpass to both sides of the station/bar, but that would probably cost a little too much to do. Anyway, I hope it gets done and that the technology for soundproof plexiglass is advanced enough (though at night, the bar will be making more noise than the trains, if it's any kind of success at all...)
Aha! Should have searched harder before I posted on this topic after hearing about it on the radio.
Thanks for the link.
It says in the artlcle that they were walking down a staircase to get to the station. Are there any access points? The other thread mentions that the entrances were concreted over.
Barroom Brawling Permitted~~ just be sure
to stay hell bloodyhell away from them
plexiglass windows.... who knows what's
on the other side (n. tracks)....
A floor-to-ceiling plexiglass wall would look nice, but for safety purposes, they'd probably have to put at least a 24-30 inch concrete base coming up from the platform before starting the plexiglass, to give it some strength in case there were any problems with the customers or from some other source.
A floor-to-ceiling plexiglass wall would look nice, but for safety purposes, they'd probably have to put at least a 24-30 inch concrete base coming up from the platform before starting the plexiglass, to give it some strength in case there were any problems with the customers or from some other source.
Why not just do double plexi layers with airspace between them, a la bulletproof glass at banks? If properly attached to the platform -- (perhaps trimmed back 6" to allow space for this plexi-sandwich without compromising train clearance -- it should be fine. And glass right down to platform level would definitely be a selling point.
(Plexiglas)
Who'll clean the windows on the TA side?
I actually thing this is a good idea. People hate bars, and the rowdy young people who frequent them. So put them underground.
The only thing better than an abandoned station is an occupied one -- so you can take the train home. Here is the use for all those excessive IND mezzanines -- and the shell for the S. 4th Street station.
Well, since that area of Brooklyn is growing in the percentage of "trendies" that are moving into the neighborhood, maybe it would be such a bad idea (though I think part of the "charm" of the 18th Street station is the fact that local and express trains will be passing right outside the plexiglass windows. Hearing the rumble of the G from the South Fourth St. shell probably wouldn't do the same thing, but there would certainly be more square footage available than at the 18th St. station).
Perhaps the S4 shell should be turned into 'the Grand Prospect Hall' for railfans. Just imagine, your wedding guests arriving on a chartered G train ...
Part of what makes 18th street so cool is the look of the old tilework and the fact that it's been there since 1904 (hopefully salvagable under 60 years of grime and grafitti). You don't have the same effect at IND mezzanines of places such as south 4th stret where tiles would have to be installed
I think that a lot of the glass they have nowadayswould suffice ceiling to floor. Sort of like what they have at some airport tram stations. I'm sure that glass can take quite a lot.
I think that glass block would be nice. Just giving the "impression" that there's a subway there and supplying the needed sound proofing at the same time. Just a Thought.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know many people like fantrips, because it gives them the opportunity to ride equipment,lines or services they can't ordinarily, but somehow I've never been crazy about them. I like meeting and chatting with railfans, and I like riding, but somehow the combination of the two is not my cup of tea. Regular service trips with ordinary riders and situations is what I like the best.
You, too?
not much 'regular' steam thogh
Depends. On the subways I tend to prefer regular service, but with streetcars the fantrips can be much more fun, if for no other reason than that we get to stop in photogenic spots for pictures (even if I'm not taking one it's a chance to stretch my legs) and because we often run on non-revenue trackage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sometimes you can combine both, i.e. a fantrip after work with a small group of friends. The problem is that you can't do that in a D Type or Lo-V, so it has to be a organized fantrip < G >
Mr rt
I prefer regular trips, but where can you catch a regular trip on a D type or a Low V?
I prefer regular trips, but where can you catch a regular trip on a D type or a Low V?
Understood. I think what I'm saying is that the fact that something is a fantrip takes some of the "specialness" out of it. Suppose you could ride and photograph a slant R40 on a fantrip on the Franklin Shuttle OR happen upon the same thing one day in regular service. Which would be more fun?
Fantrips have a sort of air of artificiality about them which takes the edge off their uniqueness.
You know what kind of fantrip I'd enjoy (if I had the money)? I'd like to rent the D-types for a day, and have the MTA make it a regular interval on, say, a W train. Then I would go aboard with video equipment (and maybe have some people spotted on the station platforms) and record regular riders reactions.
I wonder what regular riders would say about the experience. Moreover, I wonder how many would just take it in their stride, like nothing strange was happening. To me, that would make for a cool documentary.
You know what kind of fantrip I'd enjoy (if I had the money)? I'd like to rent the D-types for a day, and have the MTA make it a regular interval on, say, a W train. Then I would go aboard with video equipment (and maybe have some people spotted on the station platforms) and record regular riders reactions.
There's precedent of a sort for that idea, when the Lo-V's ran on the 42nd Street Shuttle in October 1994.
In some ways, riding on the Lo-V's started me off being a railfan.
I think you can charter a PCC in Toronto for the day, and the price is not as unreasonable as you might think. Or so I've heard. It's not a Lo-V, but, hey ....
--Mark
Subtalk Toronto field trip?
>>> It's not a Lo-V, but, hey .... <<<
But you CAN charter a Lo-V at BRANFORD.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ask Robert King about the fiasco on the last PCC charter... they started out with one PCC, replaced it en route with another, and ended up finishing the trip with a CLRV.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In some ways, riding on the Lo-V's started me off being a railfan.
I thought it was because of your love for the LIRR! :-)
In some ways, riding on the Lo-V's started me off being a railfan.
I thought it was because of your love for the LIRR! :-)
Perish the thought!
Seriously, though, I'm glad that I started off riding Metro North for a few years before moving to Long Island and switching to the LIRR. Had I started out with the LIRR, rather than (the much superior) Metro North, I probably would have been completely soured on trains and never would have become a railfan.
The closest thing I can compare that to was being on one of the first IRT R-33 trains on the No. 6 line back in 1978 when the air conditioning units were installed. It was interesting to watch the passengers' reactions when the doors would open and a blast of cold air would hit them in the face (and I remember getting mad at one guy a few weeks later when he walked into an AC car, sat down and immediately OPENED THE WINDOW, either as a force-of-habit reaction or as a protest against this new-fangled cooling system thing).
I understand what your saying, Paul. The horror of watching grown men, on fan trips, knock small children out of the way, so they can get to the railfan window, has traumatized me more than once.
Peace,
ANDEE
lol, I've never been on a fan trip, but I have no doubt that happens.
Yes, it does... and not just on fantrips. Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I happened to encounter a known "railfan" in NYC (not a poster here, AFAIK, but I have seen him on several Transit Museum tours) one Sunday when we were in the City doing some travelling of our own. We were all boarding at 180th and Jr. (then about 13) was the first on and positioned himself at the railfan window of the redbird, standing so that anyone else could also see out; this "railfan" shoved Jr. out of the way and proceeded to shield the window so that no one else could look out. When we protested his action we were told that we should just leave "his" train if we didn't like it. The incident soured Jr. on railfanning for quite a while.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[... this "railfan" shoved Jr. out of the way and proceeded to shield the window so that no one else could look out. When we protested his action we were told that we should just leave "his" train if we didn't like it. The incident soured Jr. on railfanning for quite a while.]
You do meet some folks like that, but many times I've met fellow railfans that were much more friendly. I would rather do it & take the chance that I might have a bad experience once in a while.
On Martin Luther King's holiday a dozen of us rode the rails and all behaved. One was a little louder then the others, but he was just enjoying himself & was only bothering the regular riders, a little.
Mr rt__:^)
Something's really wrong with me I suppose ... for me, railfanning is hanging out with the folks along for the ride who have a sense of humor and the crews ... to me nothing beats busting chops with the TWU guys and having a good "inside joke" laugh at everything along the route. Screw the foamers, I'm in it for the STORIES. :)
I'm with you, Kevin... while I enjoy the trains, they're just an integral part of the cityscape. I've got notebooks full of my observations of people - how they're dressed, how they talk, how they behave. Without the people the trains would be nothing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah, but once you convince the TWU brothers and sisters that you're not going to drool on their *VEST* and demonstrate through practical knowledge and inside jokes that you actually DID what they DO NOW, man oh man, the sluices open up at both ends and everybody has a huge chuckle. That's what I get my own rocks off on. Comparing notes, talking about pez dispensers in the crew room, talking to management types and convincing them that it's actually safe for the missus to move a train a few carlengths and then dump it ... that's what I live for.
Fellow foamers can be fun as well, but it's a whole lot more fun shooting the sheet collectively with folks falling back to their next northbound and fondling their handles. Heh. When we did the "foul air fund" trip to the city on Kissmoose, was lucky to enjoy the company of a handful of folks who call subtalk and Harry's place home and it was just absolutely the teats ... hanging out with TWU members and chuckling was also the icing on the cake ... for Bingbong and I as well as those we toyed with ... now THAT'S a fan trip and nobody down. :)
I don't disagree with you on any of that, but for a fan/foamer vs. former employee (even though I've operated several subway cars on a 1 1/2 mile track) I don't expect the T/O to want to talk with me. If he/she does provide the opportunity (does happen frequently) then it adds a lot to the trip.
For most of us here it's the way we should ride at the front, i.e. we don't walk up & bang on the door & say Hi, because most of us have no right to do that. Same goes for going beyond the "public" areas without permission. I've had the privlege of being behind the scenes, which for a fan was a real treat. (how many can say they were on the IND's platform at 8th Ave, lower level; or walked on the trolley loops at Essex; or been in every section of the shops at Coney Island)
Mr rt__:^)
Same here, I love people watching. I'll just stand somewhere and watch people come and go. Save for two occasions (which I enjoyed a lot), I've always railfanned by myself, so being around other railfans is strange for me.
Rob, I've come to meet & know almost 100 here. I get great pleasure out of going for a ride with a new found friend from Kansas City, or Calif., or London, or Boston, or Sheepshead Bay. This coupled with getting dirty helping to preserve some of the stuff gives me a real since of pride. I've got so I prefer to do it with a group, but I remember not so long ago when I was by myself in a Q type on my way home, the long way (got a lot of marked up maps to remember those initial trips underground).
Mr rt__:^)
Well if you enjoy those things, keep October 10-14 open this coming fall. That's when #1Brighton Express Bob of the Dumdullton Bitch, Steve *AVEXP of Train A fame, and #4 Sea Beach Fred hit town. You will never be the same again when you run into this trio. They say trouble always comes in threes. Take a good look at this trio, study them very carefully. When you run into them, don't hesitate. The fun in about to begin.
I know I may never be the same again.:-) I'll be ROTFLMAO so much my ribs will be hurting for a week.
Of course, you'd have people saying, "What's a 3?" if it were to be signed up as a West End express.
The Triplexes did pull such a stunt on March 23, 1974, when they snuck onto the Culver shuttle for a few revenue round trips. Well, one unit did, anyway.
I prefer regular trips, but where can you catch a regular trip on a D type or a Low V?
Understood. I think what I'm saying is that the fact that something is a fantrip takes some of the "specialness" out of it. Suppose you could ride and photograph a slant R40 on a fantrip on the Franklin Shuttle OR happen upon the same thing one day in regular service. Which would be more fun?
Fantrips have a sort of air of artificiality about them which takes the edge off their uniqueness.
You know what kind of fantrip I'd enjoy (if I had the money)? I'd like to rent the D-types for a day, and have the MTA make it a regular interval on, say, a W train. Then I would go aboard with video equipment (and maybe have some people spotted on the station platforms) and record regular riders reactions.
I wonder what regular riders would say about the experience. Moreover, I wonder how many would just take it in their stride, like nothing strange was happening. To me, that would make for a cool documentary.
I've downloaded BVE, and it worked fine for a while. When I got back home today to play for a bit, every time I tried to load a route, it froze and I can't do a thing. What's going on?
I use Windows Me an I downloaded the v2.010011...it worked fine when I installed it yesterday but it failed to work today. (I'm suspecting certain tech-dork members of my family was tampering with some unknown files may be the cause, but that's too elementary...)
-J!
Ah, delightful hosed up "MiniME" ... I run BVE on a MiniME drive and it does that also. Hate to say it, but the MiniME OS has a wonderous ability to commit sewercide all by its lonesome. Play your BVE offline, shut down your antivirus software (big conflicts with the majors and MiniME - McAfoo absolutely screws up and Norton ain't much better) and do the ctrl-alt-del thing and see what else can get the heave-ho ... on MiniME, the Microsoft DirectX tends to consume memory and since the memory management in MiniME is fersheet, it never recycles memory that's been run through and eventually it whacks the wall when it runs out. You've got more tasks running on it than you did prior ... such is MiniME ... my sympathies ...
Still didn't work...it's that I can't get the popup menu, the smiley face and the advice bar...and on top of that the keyboard can't control the screen.
-J!
I forget which and would have to dump carrier and swap drives to find out, but hitting either CTRL or ALT should pop up that menu as well. It sounds as though either "DirectX" or BVE itself or its files got a master hosing then ... like I said, I run mine on one of our lab rats that happens to be running MiniME and it's not unusual for it to just die from out of nowhere in full Billylatch, but BVE works.
Anything else broken? Are you using McAfoo antivirus or Ed Norton? These two clowns have a nasty habit of doing bad virus updates without checking it before release, causing all sorts of bizarre failures that go away on their next update without boo ever being said about it ...
With Billyhosiery, it could be anything and without the corpus delicti in my face, too many things to screw up to even stab at a guess ... a reload might do it if it worked before and doesn't now. MiniME comes with "system restore" that is guaranteed in writing to restore any hoseup without warning and screw with that which was working. All part of the "abort, retry, ignore experience" ...
System Restore screws up the anti-virus programs.....McAfoo (as you call it) AND Ed Norton (again, as you call it :-D ) with their virus definitions.....just suffice it to say that the entire a-v setup gets screwed up...another MiniME invention that *beep*s up your computer. Even in WinBLOWS ExPee.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Funny you should mention that - spent six hours with a customer today whose machine managed to catch a few viruses ... we kept removing them and "SYSTEM RESTORE" just kept putting them BACK ... and if that wasn't enough, it RAN them also ... helped him douche XPee and installed Win95C ... he's MUCH happier now. And from out of nowhere, his MSTS and BVE started working like never before.
SOME day, they'll string Billy up somewhere. :)
7571-7580 are in service on the No.6 Line as of 2/7/02.
Confirmed....I rode 'em last night.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Myself and a friend are planning on going to Boston for the President's Day weekend, as always with the vast number of experts on subtalk I ask this question, "What are some need to do things in Boston?" I am including food (mostly pizza), rail, and anything worth seeing. This is my first time to Boston and I will be there about 5-6 days from 2/15-2/19. Thanks in advance.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Im from boston. there are a lot of good places in boston to go to eat and so things. for pizza there are a lot of places. there is the North End which has GREAT pizza and there is Bertucci's Chicargo Bar and Grill. where in boston are you staying and how are you getting here? sunshine
This trip is being thrown together this moment. My trip to ATL got sidetracked so I chose Boston as a closer alternative. If you know any cheap to mid priced hotels that have good- medium location get back to me on those also. Thanks fellas.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Right next to Riverside, there's a Holiday Inn. Runs about $100/per on up depending on the day of the week. Search Holiday Inn, Newton MA. Also a Holiday Inn slightly more in Somerville, MA just off the Orange Line at Sullivan Square. (Stevie's stomping ground!!!)
Just being thrifty I found "Howard Johnson's Bayside" address 900 Morrissey Blvd $79 a night, do you think this is a good spot? Close to mass transit? I think we are taking the train so mass transit will be the way to go, is the area ok- decent, I am used to Newark and Jersey City but is this a bad area?
Also found one for $59 a night 309 American Legion Highway - Revere is the address, once again bad area? Close to trains? Thanks in advance again.
Mike
Mr Mass Transit
The Morrissey Blvd location is somewhat off the Red Line. They advertise free shuttle service to JFK, which is not the closest station, but is a safer place to board or wait.
The one in Revere is a mile or so from the Blue Line. But I bet they have a shuttle to the Airport (a couple miles away) where you can board the Blue.
I know the Revere area better than the other (having lived there for a year) and would have no problem staying there myself. Which hotel were you looking at? I don't remember a HoJos there.
Off topic holes in the wall with great food.
Santarpios in East Boston off the Blue Line at a block up from Maverick Station. Louigis in Revere off the Blue Line at Beachmont Station. Beachmont Roastbeef in Revere great food exelent view of the Blue Line at Beachmont station. Charlies Kitchen off the Red Line in Cambridge the best Burgers in town.
Alumni Bar in Quincy off the Red Line at Wollston great barroom pizza. The Boston Beer Works 2 locations 1 at Canal St by (The Fleet Center) by North Station Green & Orange Lines. Also located at 79 Brookline Ave (accross from Fenway Park) outside KanmoreSquare of the Green Line good micro brew beer and great food. Enjoy Stevie
Mike, do all the colors, plus the Trackless Trolley in Cambridge.
For the tourist in you, visit Feneuil Hall ... lots of places to eat there. Or with your flash pass take the train & bus to Old Iron Sides.
Most of the tourist sites are accessible via mass transit.
Mr rt__:^)
Mike just a reminder Trackless don't run on Sundays
also the Blue Line will have shuttle busses from Maverick to Wonderland that weekend also Steve
Good catch Stevie.... The Blue Line has construction going on in the Airport area on Sat and Sun and will bus half the line. Ride it on a weekday instead!
Mike,
1st thing on the list is to get a photo permit. It's at 10 Park Plaza, near Boylston on the Green. It's free, bring a photo ID, and at the info desk/ security point, there are maps and other good tourist info. While you might not get bothered without the permit, it's easier to play by the rules.
On the Green, ride the D to Riverside for higher speed or the E to Heath for slow street running. Be sure to ride the other end of the line to Lechmere as the elevated section near the Fleet Center/ North Station will come down in a few years.
On the Red, the long ride to Braintree is nice. You'll be riding the other direction to Harvard Square, if you want to ride the Trackless Trolleys.
The Blue is a nice ride out to Revere Beach and Wonderland... and a round trip is only 43 min.
Someone else suggested Old Ironsides as a destination. Don't forget, you can take a ferry to it from Long Wharf which is by Fanuel Hall and the Aquarium. It gives you a nice view of Boston Harbor.
One of my favorite train trips is the commuter rail to Newburyport. It's the most scenic, takes about an hour each way. Coming back, jump off at Salem and go see some witch stuff. Check out www.salem.org
Thanks for all of the advice and places to go, keep em comin! Thanks alot everyone.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Hotels: Howard Johnsons 1 575 Commonwealth Ave at Kenmore Square Green Line.The Ho Jo's in Revere is only accessiable by buses that do not run on Sundays and last bus there is 8pm EST. There is an Econo Lodge down the street from my house in Malden 321 Broadway off the 109 bus route usualy runs 75per night (800) 553-2666 worldwide reservitions #. There is a Holiday Inn 1200 Beacon Street Brookline next to the C Clevland Circle line (Green Line) There s also a Holiday Inn Somerville out side Sullivan Square. I cant think of any place ese off the topof my head Stevie
If you are into rail nostalgia, get out to Airport (Blue Line), Charles/MGH, and the Dorchester Red Line stations (Savin Hill, Fields Corner, Shawmut, and Ashmont) as all will be totally remodeled or replaced in the next few years. Bowdoin may also close, and Lechmere may be replaced by a new station east of the existing one.
Don't miss Doyle's Cafe on Washington Street, walkable from the Green Street orange line station. Excellent food and beer.
A good place to stay is also the Motel 6 in Braintree, right near the Red Line and commuter rail station. There is also a Best Western on Commonwealth Avenue near Sutherland Road (Green Line B).
For pix (if you are interested in such things) the LRV's are due to be retired soon, and the Mattapan PCC's make for excellent photography (especially now as they transition from green to orange). Also the Pullman commuter rail cars are set to be retired soon.
To hang, go to Cambridge (Harvard or Central Square), some decent nightlife. Landsdowne Street near Fenway Park is kool too, but not as eclectic as Cambridge. Jamaica Plain (around the Monument) is neat too, walkable from Forest Hills or use the #39 bus from Copley. Lots of neat restaurants and bars.
ENJOY THE TRIP
Good call Conrad I forgot about Doyles in Jamica Plain. Also Dicks Last Resort for a unique dining atmosphere. Stevie
Mike,
definitely do some riding on the outbound lines of the green line...and check out the yards at Resevoir and Riverside so you can see the type 8s, since they won't be running. Maybe closer to the 19th I can railfan with you on the Mattapan line, since my college is not far from there. But I ahve to play that by ear because I may still be recovering from surgery that takes place this wednesday.
For restaruants, I second Fanuil Hall....this is one of my favorite areas in Boston. Also, while munching on pizza in the North End, no trip in the Italian District is complete without a stop at Mike's Pastry for dessert...grab some italian cookies or something. If you are looking for some "greasy spoons"....Bartly's Burgers near Harvard Square is a bit pricey for a burger, but still worth the trip. Also, this place is a whole in the wall, but Alexander Pizza and Cafe (on the Boston College "B" green line) (its near planned parenthood and star market...across the street (Comm ave and Brighton ave I think) has some of the best chicken fingers, and I am sure other menu items are good too.
Have a great trip!
-Nick
...I wanna post them 'em up, but I dunno how.
Anyone got expertise on that?
-J!
Well, here's one that woke me up from 1010WINS this morning. Two entrepreneurs will submit a plan to Community Board 5 next week to open a piano bar in the abandoned 18th Street subway station on the Lex line. It is to be called "The 6" and will actually be two bars, one each on the uptown and downtown sides. There are to be plexiglass walls at the platform edges.
Unless it's an early April Fool's joke, it sounds intriguing. But I have to wonder ....
- how will they vent the kitchens they'll need to build?
- can they possibly build a plexiglass wall that will block enough of the noise of passing trains?
- will they carpet the space?
- are the acoustics of a 1904 tiled subway station suitable for a piano bar?
- what kind of street entrances? handicapped elevators required? How will they handle fire exits?
That said, it would definitely be cool to have that space restored (cleaning graffitti off tiles). More info as it comes (since I'm only a couple of blocks away).
That station, BTW, was last used when they used it to remove debris from the Union Square crash caused by Robert Ray. (When was that? 1991 or so?) They opened up the sidewalk to gain access to the staircases, took the debris out, then concreted them over again. With a few years' dirt, you can't even see where they were ....
The crash was in '91.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Just a few days ago I posted an inquiry here about leasing that station from the city for just that purpose, and asked if anyone knew about the procedure.
He who hesitates is lost.
I've been ruminating for years on how to go about doing something very similar to that as well.
Ah, well, there's always Worth St, I guess...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
There are other stations, but that 18th street station is right in the middle of a hip part of town.
I would be very surprised if they can't get it to work. Just getting it passed the boards...
Subway fans need to dis the involved community board members as being anti-subway. I wonder if they would have to make the saloon wheelchair accessible.
Worth St would make an interesting saloon too. The old IRT City Hall station, however, is an even more obvious candidate, tho' the loop design makes for a difficult space.
I think the idea is cool. The elevator will allow me to take my stepdaughter there. (She is a bit of a railfan having been on several steam excursions)
I would be very surprised if they can't get it to work. Just getting it passed the boards...
And this is the big issue. That area of Park Ave South has gone from nothing to bar central in 15 years. Almost as bad as Amsterdam Avenue in the 70s and 80s. To give you an example, at the notorious Iguana Bar & Grill (PAS/19th), I asked one patron not to pee in a nearby doorway. Not only did he curse me (expected), he threw a beer bottle at my head (unexpected). Nicely dressed mid-20s guy.
The community boards tend to be pro-mass transit, and perhaps mildly sympathetic to schemes for city agencies to make $$$. It's the prospect of yet another liquor license in that small area that'll make them balk.
OTOH, piano bar clients are rarely packs of aggressive drunken 25-year-olds. And we *don't* have a decent gay bar anywhere near ... so perhaps it'll pass after all. We shall see.
Are ya callin' it a proposed gay bar???????????????? Naught a good idea, laddie....
Stuart, RLine86Man
Are ya callin' it a proposed gay bar???????????????? Naught a good idea, laddie....
Hard to say; the Newsday article is less definitive than the 1010WINS piece this morning, which used the phrase "piano bar" about 8 times.
And, how many piano bars IN MANHATTAN have you been to with majority non-gay clientele? I ain't never seen one yet.
heh, i recall back a few years ago working for thei magazine that was printed in the meat packing district, one day when i headed over there to drop some work off i noticed a tiny set of steps down the side of a building near 9th av and 14th street - apparently there was a gay bar called 'manhole' done there.
oi gevault!
That neighborhood is the historic heart and soul of a certain side of the gay SexSindustry.
The community boards tend to be pro-mass transit, and perhaps mildly sympathetic to schemes for city agencies to make $$$. It's the prospect of yet another liquor license in that small area that'll make them balk.
It would not be particularly sensible for the community board to support this proposal solely because of the revenue it might generate for the Transit Authority. Whatever amount of rent the bar would pay will be a mere drop in the bucket compared to the TA's total budget, and this isn't the sort of revenue-raising idea that can be repeated to much of an extent.
It would not be particularly sensible for the community board to support this proposal solely because of the revenue it might generate for the Transit Authority.
I agree that it's not a major pro OR con, but it might help on the margins.
Whatever amount of rent the bar would pay will be a mere drop in the bucket compared to the TA's total budget, and this isn't the sort of revenue-raising idea that can be repeated to much of an extent.
True, but the symbolic value of these things could be major. Imagine Bloomberg saying, "And we've even rented out surplus subway stations to generate additional funding for the subways." That message would play well even though the $$$ involved are miniscule.
Whatever amount of rent the bar would pay will be a mere drop in the bucket compared to the TA's total budget, and this isn't the sort of revenue-raising idea that can be repeated to much of an extent.
True, but the symbolic value of these things could be major. Imagine Bloomberg saying, "And we've even rented out surplus subway stations to generate additional funding for the subways." That message would play well even though the $$$ involved are miniscule
You're quite right. Form over substance, and all that. At any rate, after reading all the messages in this thread, I sort of remember a proposal from several years ago to use at least one of the 1970's-era tunnel segments of the Second Avenue subway as a self-storage public wine cellar. People could store wine bottles in carefully controlled and secure conditions for a fee. Does anyone else remember this?
There's a gay bar @3rd and 29th. Not sure what it's called now but it used to be called Dakota.
Arti
There's a gay bar @3rd and 29th. Not sure what it's called now but it used to be called Dakota.
Yeah, think the name has changed now. Never went in even though it's just 9 blocks away ... I like my gay bars to have windows.
So you live in the neighbourhood. To my knowledge you can see out but not in.
Hopefully it will be a general railfan bar, so all of us can go there for a view and a beer regardless of our sexual preference. I've got no problem with folks who happen to be gay. I just don't want 'em to get the wrong idea!
I've been few times at gay/lesbian bars. If you behave :-) they will too.
Arti
Hopefully it will be a general railfan bar
I've seen nothing that indicates the operators will do anything to target railfans. We're such a tiny and insignificant market (look at the struggle most tourist RRs have to stay afloat) that if we're any major part of their marketing, the place is doomed.
I've got no problem with folks who happen to be gay. I just don't want 'em to get the wrong idea!
[chuckle] What idea would that be?
I don't think it would need to target railfans (or if it even should). The whole idea of an abandoned train station is enough to generate enough non-railfans. It would fit into the whole urban crowd too. It would spark the interest of alot more people than just railfans.
The whole idea of an abandoned train station is enough to generate enough non-railfans. ... It would spark the interest of alot more people than just railfans.
Agreed, and I think the owners are counting on that too. Just generally a cool idea.
The COOLEST idea, of course, would be to offer stops on special 6 trains if they did some kind of door in the plexiglass. But the TA wouldn't do that.
Yeah, I would love to go to 18th st bar, but not so eager if it becomes a gay bar, "not that there's anything wrong with that"
What, you think somebody's gonna make a move on you or something???
Not for nuthin', but y'all are nuts. No way the safety concerns could be dealt with. Trains blowing by, rats, railfans nursing a beer and waiting for the last redbird ever to go by, while shooting scared looks at the rest of the gay piano bar patrons. Never happen. Think of the insurance premiums. Great idea, just not feasable.
Great idea, just not feasable.
I disagree. (1) Trains will be on other side of a VERY solid (but clear) barrier. (2) Restaurants all over Manhattan can deal with rats in their basement spaces; this one won't be much different. (3) Not at all clear it will be a gay bar, and even so, the attraction of such an unusual space would help overcome any nervousness on the part of unaware non-gay people.
Do you think the TA will agree with you that it's safe? Their insurance co?
Not for nuthin', but y'all are nuts. No way the safety concerns could be dealt with. Trains blowing by, rats, railfans nursing a beer and waiting for the last redbird ever to go by, while shooting scared looks at the rest of the gay piano bar patrons. Never happen. Think of the insurance premiums. Great idea, just not feasable.
What is so unsafe about it? The glass would be strong, and anyway, what kind of bar is this anyway, something from the wild west with guns and bar stools flying around constantly? So put up shatter proof glass. How often do you go to a bar with holes in the sheetrock from all the bar stools flying into the wall? Shatter proof glass is stronger than sheetrock. I don't understand why everyone keeps saying that all these barstools are going to be flying around. It's a bar not a club, and even if it was a club, it's absurd to think that this glass is going to be broken constanly. As for the rats, you don't want to know what goes on in the kitchens of many retaurants.
(It's a bar not a club, and even if it was a club, it's absurd to think that this glass is going to be broken constanly.)
No room to dance, or do much of anything, in such a space. I envision a bar where the token booth is. Along the platform, all you could fit is a bunch of small tables along the wall, with waitress service. They'd have to keep the lights dim on the platforms, for people to be able to see the trains.
No worry about marketing. Everyone going by on the subway would see people sitting at the tables, talking and drinking. I'd expect they'd have curtains that would be closed when the bar is, and open when it is full, so it would never seem empty.
All in all, could be a very pleasant place -- if they serve some food, and there is no smoking (perhaps one side will be smoking, and one no smoking).
They'd have to keep the lights dim on the platforms, for people to be able to see the trains.
Atually, keeping with history, the lights should be dim with bare bulbs like the original IRT. Aside from the stations with natural light, the stations were very dim. By the way, did 18th street ever have natural light through glass block in the sidewalk? I know 28th street did.
perhaps one side will be smoking, and one no smoking
Actually, make it a cigar bar, with J&R as a partner. The space is tiled, after all. I can hear the p.c. anti-smoking crowd going ballistic over this one.
I can hear the p.c. anti-smoking crowd going ballistic over this one.
Oh, nonsense. Manhattan has several cigar bars, including one down W. 22nd Street from my office. No one says boo about them. The most reaction you get is a few faces scrunched up as people walk underneath the (very effective) fans that blow the cigar smoke from inside to outside, right onto the sidewalk.
Just a few days ago I posted an inquiry here about leasing that station from the city for just that purpose, and asked if anyone knew about the procedure.
He who hesitates is lost.
You might not have lost anything. Before blaming yourself, wait and see if this piano bar actually opens, and then how well it does. It seems to be a rather risky venture to me. Sure, it's an intriguing business concept, but talk to the people in line at the bankruptcy court and you'll hear about a lot of intriguing business concepts. Using the abandoned station means that the bar will have a nonstandard and unchangeable layout. I also would imagine that the conversion costs will be much higher than for a more conventionally located establishment. And whether the idea will prove popular among patrons after the curiosity factor dies down is hard to predict.
>>>And whether the idea will prove popular among patrons after the curiosity factor dies down is hard to predict.<<<
A place filled with nothing but drunken railfoamers. After the novelty wears off for regular folk. A frightening thought.
Peace,
ANDEE
[A place filled with nothing but drunken railfoamers.]
Like you and who else?
;-D
BTW will drinks be 'on the house' or on the roadbed????
Depends on the time of night…
ON ME, of course.
Peace,
ANDEE
It wouldn't be that much different than a bar in the basement of a building, and there are quite a few of those. What's the difference if it's a subway station or a basement?
It wouldn't be that much different than a bar in the basement of a building ... What's the difference if it's a subway station or a basement?
Most basements don't have intact 1904 subway mosaics or trains running 18" past the little round table with your martinis on it.
It wouldn't be that much different than a bar in the basement of a building ... What's the difference if it's a subway station or a basement?
Most basements don't have intact 1904 subway mosaics or trains running 18" past the little round table with your martinis on it.
No, I was responding to the fact that will it do good after the novelty wears off. What I meant was that even if the novelty wears off, what's the difference between a basement bar and the station bar. Many basement bars do good even if they are not in a station with 1904 mosaics, and subway trains roaring past. This place has the edge above a plain basement bar for that reason and would have an atmosphere greater than any basement bar. It could do good even if the novelty wears off.
Remember Scrap Bar,
Arti
Go for the other platform at that station!
Go for the other platform at that station!
They plan to use both. He'll have to pick another station!
Or maybe there will be 2 bars.
as someone involved in architecture, i will tell you that a piano bar is a place of assembly, and wil require fire exits, and an elevator for the handicapped.
They can build a wall that will singificantly reduce the noise of the trains as they pass by. I would guess the floors will be carpeted, as to the venting of the kitchen, i would need to look at plans....
how will they vent the kitchens they'll need to build?
- can they possibly build a plexiglass wall that will block enough of the noise of passing trains?
- will they carpet the space?
- are the acoustics of a 1904 tiled subway station suitable for a piano bar?
- what kind of street entrances? handicapped elevators required? How will they handle fire exits
Your thoughts are my thoughts. For something like this, they might need quite a few variances. But the whole thing will become snarled in politics.
Frankly, for the MTA its a win - they will get rent, and the client will be responsible and liabel for all the work done, not to mention maintainence. The only problem i see would be a community board.
Forgive the big inline image below. Here's a plan of 28th St station. Probably very similar to that at 18th Street. It would originally have had four stairways to the platform. In a reuse plan like this, I'd keep the back stairways as stairs (one for regular use, one fire exit), and convert one of the front stairways to an elevator shaft. The platform would be around 200 feet long at the edge, and from 10 to 20 feet wide, and the back of the station at the ticket booth would be about 50 feet back. I'd estimate the square footage of the typical unextended original IRT station to be around 4,000 square feet. Is that really enough space for a piano bar?
Well, you'd have to dedicate some space for a storage area for your liquor and other supplies on both sides of the station, though if there was an underpass at 18th (as there once was at 28th St.) that would free up some space on once side, though it would make more sense to put the storage area towards the back wall, where the token booth formerly was located.
Table areas and/or the bar iteself would make the most sense to be along the platform, since the fact that it is in a subway would be the bar's "gimmick." As for the piano, I don't see how that would really fly in there, since pianos aren't normally played in the decible range to compete with an R-142A going by on the 6 or a downtown R-62 chugging by on the 4.
I suppose a piano could be placed back towards where the turnstiles/ticket choppers used to be, while a general sound system with mixers can be set up to play other kinds of music more suitable to battle the passing trains. And since the two bars will be essentially two different places without an underpass connector, there's no reason why they couldn't have seperate themes, with one side having more open space in the back area, or tables in the back and a bar along the platform on both sides of the former fare control area.
The tables would have to be along the platform, as you say for the "gimmick" But is there room for a kitchen? The original stations are not that big, as you can see from the diagram. It sounds like a really cool idea, and the old tilework, and low light sort of like the old IRT had, would give a real cozy atmosphere.
You could probably have a kitchen or a piano bar. Hard to see how both could fit in there, unless there was some way to connect both stations -- piano bar in the back section on one side, kitchen on the other side. If we were taking the 28th St. station on Park Ave. South, you could just reopen the underpass and use that to ferry food from one side to the other, but I can't see someone taking food upstairs, walking across the street and then taking it back downstairs again, and AFAIK, 18th St. never was built with an underpass like 28th St and Astor Place were.
Hre's a thought, FWIW. Rent a location at street level between the 2 entrances and use it solely for a kitchen. Both up an downtown side would have to be ADA compliant and thus, would have elevators. Juat a thought.
Peace,
ANDEE
just looking at these, i would say they would need to excavate and make it deeper, than 10 to 20 feet. but then i dont know what theya re putting n there..
>> ...around 4,000 square feet. Is that really enough space for a piano bar? <<
I don't know. Maybe. Probably enough for *some* sort of theme bar.
Maybe we're getting hung up on term "Piano Bar" and its various connotations. There is (or at least there used to be) a great piano bar in the Inner Harbor at Baltimore. I don't remember it being all that large the times I was there...
Seems to me there'd be enough space for a bar, some tables, maybe a small dance floor. If it's planned as more of a saloon and less of a restaurant, then I think it could work.
Personally, I'd go there for a drink every now and again, if'n it ever opens.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
>>Two entrepreneurs will submit a plan to Community Board 5 next week to open a piano bar in the abandoned 18th Street subway station<<
If the piano bar concept doesn't become reality they could open up a fast food restaurant...........er..a..."Subway" sandwich shop !!
Bill "Newkirk"
How will they construct this? Installing plexiglass along the edge and doing platform edge work will require G.O.'s...Are these allowed? Would the company be charged for this?
I'm sure the work could be co-ordinated with other GOs on the Lex if the MTA really wanted it.
The bigger question will be liability, since obviously the MTA would not want any part of some lawsuit should something happen to the barrier between the platform and the tracks. The owners would probably have to sign some sort of waiver and work out their own insurance plan apart from the MTA, though that wouldn't prevent some patron from suing the agency on their own, even if they were drunk, started a barfight and went flying through the plexiglass along with a table or barstool.
This plexiglass is not that week as to allow someone to just bust through it. It would be similar to the glass along the stations of some trams at airports, or the windows in high rise office buildings. And it's not like bar owners are contantly replaceing all the windows in thier bars all the time anyway. Obviously it wouldn't be righ along the absolute edge of the platform anyway, as to allow a safe clearance for cleaning the windows on the track side, sort of like a catwalk on the track side, around where the pillars are.
If you've watched hockey long enough you know that plexiglass hit from the proper angle and with the proper force, can snap, crackle and pop. It may happen very rarely, but that's what insurance companies and the MTA will have to take into account if the plan goes through.
As for the catwalk, they wouldn't want to push the glass too far back or it would ruin the affect I assume the owners would be trying for. I would guess they would be likely to line the glass up about with the front edge of the columns that should still be in place along the length of the platform at 18th St. That would leave enough clearance space between the glass and platform and could also serve to give the barrier itself some reinforcement by shortening the length of the sections of plexiglass between the solid supports (a 250-foot wall of glass would look nicer, but would be less structurally sound).
I have to assume that they'll either use bulletproof glass like in banks, or a double layer of super-heavy-duty plexiglass. Noise will be the main issue here, not safety.
Absent some ridiculously unlikely accident, the need to wash the track-side of the windows is the biggest design challenge. 'Cause you're right, pulling the glass back from the platform edge does reduce the impact.
>>> I have to assume that they'll either use bulletproof glass like in banks, or a double layer of super-heavy-duty plexiglass. <<<
It is also probable that the glass will not be floor to ceiling either. There will probably be a three foot solid wall (possibly with a tile motif) with picture windows to about seven feet from the floor, and a wall from there to the ceiling. It would not make sense to place this wall closer to the platform edge than the supporting columns since they would clutter the interior space.
Tom
I wonder if they would put the wall so the pillars would be on the inside. Even if it would add to the clutter, it does add to the effect of the whole "station" theme. I think the wall should be put so the pillars are in the bar, right along the glass wall.
>>> I wonder if they would put the wall so the pillars would be on the inside. Even if it would add to the clutter, it does add to the effect of the whole "station" theme <<<
You are thinking like a rail fan. They will be thinking like bar owners. Building the walls even with the pillars gives more strength, and makes the interior space easier to clean. Do not expect bare incandescent lights either. They will probably have recessed baby flood lights on a rheostat control and carpeted or wood floor. They will be looking for atmosphere, not authenticity.
Tom
The poles could be on the inside of the bar, if they are repainted in their original 1904 look to create the ambiance the bar is trying to convey. Also, if seating is put next to the windows (which makes the most sense, IMHO), the posts will provide natural breaks between the tables.
. Also, if seating is put next to the windows (which makes the most sense, IMHO), the posts will provide natural breaks between the tables.
The poles would provide natural breaks in the line of sight between you and the girl at the next table... baaaad bar design.
...or the pillars could also act as a natural barrier to hide you from a FOAMER you're trying to avoid....;-D
...or the pillars could also act as a natural barrier to hide you from a FOAMER you're trying to avoid....;-D
Hey, I resemble that remark...
I know....;-D (Heh)
Hey the poles aren't that wide -- the ones sitting next to the window will be blocked, but they're the people who are supposed to be looking at the Lex local passing by anyway. Assuming the tables will be for seating four, the ones sitting away from the platform will still have a free and clear shot at anyone sitting at the next table down.
Yeah you have to remember it's not like the covered tiled pillars like at 23, 28, or 33. They are the skinny round original IRT pillars.
All the columns are still there, and that is about where I guess they would put the wall. They are the round columns, of the original IRT, not covered with tiles like at 23rd, 28th, or 33rd. I guess they tiled over the pillars at the other stations when they did the platforms extentions at the other stations.
Hi
I'm looking to obtain some 35mm slides for my collection on the DART LRV on loan to Salt Lake City for the winter games. Any subfans out there in SLC?
E-mail me at my off-line account.
Phil Hom
I didn't go to SLC to drive (but I was all set up to do so, I backed out at the last minute due to family situations) -- but there are also 40 1988-1989 Gillig Phantoms from Orange County (California), 50 brand new Neoplans from San Francisco, 5 C40LF's fromCulver City (California), and a handful of Omnitrans RTS's (San Bernardino) in addition to all the other stuff.
Thanks for letting us know what else was borrowed.
Phil Hom
Story at: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-nydugg082580358feb08.column?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dmore%2Dbreaking%2Dnews
Wasn't this the idea that someone on subtalk had?
(Wasn't this the idea that someone on subtalk had? )
My idea was a disco/restarant/catering hall at the S. 4th Street shell. I didn't think you could squeeze in an establishment in such a small space as 18th St, but after all it's Manhattan.
The South 4th Street shell is smaller. It is only as long as the station below is wide and obviously narrower than the station below is long. Why would South 4th be better than 18th Street?
No, someone else posted an idea for a bar at 18th Street within the last 2 weeks. This seems a little too ironic that someone mentions it here and within two weeks it appears in Newsday. A little strange I think.
Last December, I came to NY to dance tango and ride the buses and LIRR. a METROcard machine ate my $4 and didn't give me an unlimited fare card. I followed the instructions, called the TA and reported the faulty machine number. The next day I saw technicians working on the machine so I knew my $4 would eventually come. It only took 2 months but the check eventaully arrived.
What am I going to do with the $4? Well, I'm coming to the city over the holiday weekend so I'll spend it on a first class hotel. LOL
Michael
(It only took 2 months but the check eventaully arrived. )
Unfortunately, it probably cost the TA $500 in staff time and overhead to refund your money LOL.
This looks too much like what we have endured in the UK. Don't do it!
Well glory be ... according to our local paper, the primary force behind the demolition of Amtrak is the "Libertarian" CATO INSTITUTE, a "think tank" created by MICROSOFT ... glad I didn't keep my copy of MSTS ...
This looks too much like what we have endured in the UK. Don't do it!
At least in the UK, two of the franchises work:
- The Chiltern Railway (everything out of London Marylebone)
- The Island Line (the Isle of Wight)
That should mean that Metro North and the Staten Island Railway will continue to work and everything else will get really messed up if they go along with that idea :)
Nice analogy between Staten Island Railway and Isle of Wight Railway. Which do you think will happen first, tunnel under the Solent or tunnel to Brooklyn?
(This looks too much like what we have endured in the UK. Don't do it! )
I think they learned from the UK that the infrastructure has to be a public responsibility. They might privatize the trains, but not the tracks.
Well shows you now that we're back with the "Peruvian marching powder party" in office, just how bad their noses have been burned. How exactly are they going to bid out Amtrak service on CSX and NS trackage? I mean considering that Amtrak only owns portions of the NEC as far as I know?
Wouldn't this require a "taking" of private property? Could you see CSX allowing NS to run intercity passenger trains on their tracks? I guess I'm missing something here - at least in the UK, the government actually owned the tracks that they sold off. :)
"By Thomas A. Corfman
Tribune staff reporter
February 7, 2002
The Chicago Landmarks Commission on Thursday is expected to consider an ambitious proposal for a mixed-use redevelopment of Union Station that would include construction of a multistory addition on top of the historic but underused railroad station.
The addition, which would bring the structure to 26 stories, is intended to fit with the existing eight-story structure, while completing Daniel Burnham's original plan for a tall tower on the site. The station, built in 1925, occupies the block bounded by Jackson Boulevard and Canal, Clinton and Adams Streets.
The proposal, to be presented by Amtrak and Chicago-based developer Prime Group Realty Trust, would more than double the size of the building to 1.1 million square feet, while giving it official landmark status.
The key aspects of the plan:
- At the top of the building, 150 condo units would be built, with private parking and a separate residential entrance along Canal.
- The middle floors would contain 480,000 square feet of high-tech office space, with features such as underfloor ventilation and windows that can be opened and closed.
- The building's existing floors would be renovated for a 300-room hotel and conference center, to be operated by Harrison Conference Centers, part of Hilton Hotels Corp.
- More than 60,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space that can be reached from the street and passenger waiting area, called the Great Hall, would be added.
The design by Chicago architect Lucien Lagrange features a massive, enclosed atrium at the center of the building that rises up to the structure's top floor."
...
I rode the "A" downtown from Penn Station this morning. As the train pulled in to West 4th Street station, the conductor announced in a very casual fashion: "This is West 4th Street; change here for the B,C,D,E and F trains."
Of course, the B and D trains have been terminating at 34th Street for some time now; there was no mention of the V train; and no mention of the Grand Street shuttle.
So was THIS guy new? Or just too damn lazy to learn the changes and make proper announcements?
Old habits die hard.
Let's face another reality - you're only required to "know your own line" ... unless supervision gives you a new gamecard, well, Whitey Ford is STILL pitching. :)
Let's face another reality - you're only required to "know your own line"
Are you serious? C/Rs aren't required to know what trains connect at the stations on their line at the current time of day? This is not a massive amount of information to memorize. At a very minimum they ought to know what SHOULD connect.
I also don't see why they shouldn't also be required to know the current GOs that affect transfers. Even I, as a poor passenger who wants to get where he's going, look at the posted GO signs.
I'm already feeling like hell being an apologist for an agency I walked away from 30+ years ago ... I have to claim a lack of knowledge as to how things are communicated these days. Back in my time, there was a cardboard "cheat sheet" for your line for those who actually HAD a PA to use (back in my time, there were NO announcements at all, that's why there were MAPS) ... no air conditioning either.
If conductors don't know WHAT to announce, I can assure you there IS a "printed legend" (was back in my times when a Howard Stern type diatribe for the geese was ignored by management but loved by the trainload) that should be distributed ... the inconsistencies I hear about HERE suggest that it's no longer done ... but short of robots off a hard disk, I'm sure there could be consistency if printed out. If that really matters all so much ... after all, as was the case back in my days, there WAS a map ... use it or lose it.
Pardon my attitude if you believe that conductors are required to provide oral sex. :)
I agree with you that conductors' first responsiblity should be keeping the trains on time. But given the habit that passengers have of not reading, it would be nice if they didn't say "Change for the 7" when the 7 isn't running today. Besides, the GO for the 7 may not have been posted in the customer's originating station, so even if they do read they might legitimately not know.
It would also be nice if TA management made the prime responsibility of the C/R (on-time performance, not a personal customer information service) clear to passengers, though I'm not sure how that can be accomplished.
Also, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you needed to apologize or explain for an agency that you no longer work for. I was just responding to your categorical statement that a C/R is only required to know his own line. If that's really true, I think it's bad management on the TA's part.
Couldn't agree more ... lemme put it to you this way having been a conductor, albeit at a time when there WASN'T a PA on most trains. I *DID* do some 32's which DID have a radio station on board, and I used it to the Nth of my abilities when I got one.
GO's were handed to motormen, but it was considered "out of title" for conductors to request same. They COULD be had. We were issued little sheets of cardboard in a "route map" kinda thing with a list of what met what where. There was a little booklet of proper announcements but they weren't LAW at the time. Supplements were handed out routinely in the event of service changes. You depended on your DISPATCHER to get those to you, otherwise you read the REGULAR BOOK for each station ... if the book didn't get changed however, sure wasn't the conductor's fault - we had a script and we READ it (and embellished where not rohibited by law) ... but if there's a defect in the script, I wouldn't blame the conductor. They're not FOAMERS. If da book says change for the P, the O and the I train, well by gum, that's what you get. Deviation from the script is inviting a community pee the way the rulebook goes ...
At least that's my take on it ... if they WANT the right words said at the management tier (when not cutting paper dolls) then by gum, they can print a supplement and hand it out ... a conductor or any other hourly will do the proper TA shuffle with three part harmony and feeling. :)
"I was just responding to your categorical statement that a C/R is only required to know his own line."
I would think (but could be wrong) that 'knowing your own line' would include knowing the conenections. So if your route is the (F) and you were working an (E), I could understand that you might not be up on the latest connections. But if you were working the (F) we would expect you to know what the F connects.
Elias
I understand that for the E to go local on 8th avenue, leaving 50th street u take a bottom yellow to avoid 42nd lower level. WATCH THAT LINEUP LOL.
but a while back on a saturday all downtown E trains were EXPRESS. after 50th street i forgot how he did it but when we entered 42nd, we were on the A trains tracks on 8 av exp. What lineup do you take?
am i correct in assuming u take a bottom green leaving 50th and a bottom yellow at the 2nd homeball? if u take a bottom green leaving 50 and another bottom green at the 2nd one i think that sends you to 42nd lower level. these homeballs can get confusing. i guess thats why MTA got those stickers saying..............
ARE U ACCEPTING THE PROPER LINEUP?
not to mention a E train almost took a incorrect lineup on monday. Im glad he knew that a bottom yellow at Queens plaza was not his friend LOL. they did change it to a bottom green eventually. i think that Motorman was new to the E line. i had to show him where the superintendents office was! how am i a railfan i know where it is, and i do not work for TA yet. he does and he dunno where it is! but i pass it everyday to get on my Q84 bus
[am i correct in assuming u take a bottom green leaving 50th and a bottom yellow at the 2nd homeball?]
You are.
This was posted some time ago but if they ever overhaul the entire signal system, they replace the bottom balls with arrows. I am sure the T/Os once they memorize the line can know which arrow they should follow, and its easier than remembering colors at each junction in my opinion.
> ARE U ACCEPTING THE PROPER LINEUP?
The MTA stickers actually said "U" instead of "YOU"?
- Lyle Goldman
NO. its actually ARE YOU ACCEPTING THE PROPER LINEUP? u can see this at jay street on the 10th car mark manhattan bound side and union turnpike on the Queens bound E express by the 10th car mark on the punchbox it says it
Your observation is correct for southbound E trains leaving 50th St.
In June I'd like to travel from LA down to San Diego via rail. I know Amtrak has regular service (assuming they'll still be around!) but was curious of there was any commuter rail, a la MN or NJT.
Yes. The Los Angeles commuter rail, Metrolink, extends as far south as the community of Oceanside, while the San Diego commuter line, the Coaster, has its northern terminal at Oceanside. Therefore, the trip between L.A. and San Diego can be made entirely by commuter rail, changing trains at Oceanside.
Thanks, John. Kinda like SEPTA/NJT, travelling from Philly to NY. Does either commuter line have a web site that you know of where I can check schedules and fares?
Metrolink
Coaster
Be aware that it's not at all like SEPTA/NJT, because Metrolink runs limited service to Oceanside, and the schedules are not coordinated with each other. I think there's only one trip each way per day that you could actually do.
For example, 3 of the 4 southbound Metrolink trains run in the evening rush, the earliest of which arrives at Oceanside an hour after the last southbound Coaster train has left. The 1 southbound Metrolink that arrives at Oceanside during the morning leaves you with over an hour layover waiting for the next Coaster departure. Similarly, going northbound, 3 of the 4 northbound Metrolinks leave Oceanside before the first northbound Coaster has arrived.
Thank you!
You would better off taking the Amtrak, about the same fare, with toilets and more comfortable seats.
>>> You would better off taking the Amtrak, about the same fare, with toilets and more comfortable seats. <<<
Hey!, give us a break, Metrolink does have toilets on board, but you are right about the seats. They do not recline like Amtrak.
Tom
click on the metrolink trains site then look at the coaster commuter
train sites & you can bypass amtraks san diegan from union station
to san diego & back etc....
thankz.
what ? no transfer to coaster in oceanside ??
???
A recent posting mentioned the new Map showing N/W service as local only on the Astoria Line. My feeling is that they didn't give express service a chance. Of course 9/11 threw a wrench into everything, but I still think this small stretch of the subway could use express service. My suggestion would have been to run W's as a modified, skip-stop express on the local tracks, but skipping both 39/Beebe and 36/Washington. It would make all the rest of the stops between QBP and Ditmars. This is not some selfish point-of-view, as in, "I want the subway to stop only where I live and where I'm going." Rather, the idea comes from riding the line almost every day and observing how few people use those 2 stops compared to the 4 others. No disrespect to the residents of Dutch Kills, but I lived on the line for 5 years before moving, and I observed first-hand the (lack of) use of those stations.
I thought the Astoria express was cool, but really, it didn't serve the riders well. What's the point of your plan to skip the last 2 stops? It might save 30 seconds. Big deal.
While I benefitted from the Express, theoretically the Astoria line doesn't necesarily need it since the time saved isn't really that significant.
I agree that the best idea would have been skip-stop, but for only 5 stops (Ast blvd - 39 ave) it's kinda not necessary for the same reason above. But I would have liked to see:
N : Ditmars, Astoria, Bway, 39 Ave
W : Ditmars, 30 Ave, 36 Ave
Or whatever combination sounds good.
Does anyone know the history of the line being built - more specifically...why was Astoria blvd chosen as the 2 island platform express station. Statistically it has lower ridership than 30 ave and bway. Only thing that makes sense is that it connects to the bus to LGA and years ago I think the M35 went as far as Steinway St. and served Randall's and Ward's island. Today a more logical express stop would be either 30 Ave or Bway, but I would think the chances of that happening are low on the mathematical probability scale.
=)
Well, at least now you can say that there was, at one time, regularly scheduled express sevice on the Astoria line! I don't think you can say that about the West End, Jerome, IRT Broadway (north of Dyckman), Myrtle (between Broadway and Wyckoff). (or can you?)
>>Well, at least now you can say that there was, at one time, regularly scheduled express sevice on the Astoria line! I don't think you can say that about the West End, Jerome, IRT Broadway (north of Dyckman), Myrtle (between Broadway and Wyckoff). (or can you?) <<
Can anyone explain why all those lines were built with center express tracks to start with?
I believe the line between Myrtle and Wyckoff was built with a third track because originally the L line was planned as an elevated line and the traffic patterns of those two lines may have been different than they are today. That is one of the reasons why Wyckoff was built as an "express" station.
As for the other lines I don't know why they never had express service. It seems to make more sense on lines like the West End or Jerome where it can easily be done on a fairly long stretch. I don't know why they built it and never used it.
As for the northern end of the 1 train, the problem seems to be that the line goes from 3 tracks to two tracks then to three tracks again. The 2 track section seems to mess up the chance for any sort of express service on the 3 track sections. I wonder why they built the 2 track section for only two tracks or why they made the other parts 3 tracks knowing the 2 track section was there. Makes no sense. Anyone know why?
>>I wonder why they built the 2 track section for only two tracks or why they made the other parts 3 tracks knowing the 2 track section was there. Makes no sense. Anyone know why? <<
I know why the 2-track stretch of the 1 line was built that way -- to save money and time. The deep tunnel boring in that stretch would have been harder and more costly with 3 tracks. The real question is why they went back to 3 tracks north of Dyckman St (and south of 145th St.).
I want to know how was the speed between 39th Avenue and Astoria Blvd? Was it pretty fast top speed or crawling?
Frank D
Southbound, it sped thru 30th Ave, slowed thru B'way, then CRAWLED thru 36th Ave and 39th Ave. While I never experienced a situation where the N & W arrived at the merger south of 39th at the same time, it was still slow going. I never passed an N train on the local track as we ran express on the W.
Whatever time you gain by passing those two stations is lost from all the switching. Local service is better.
Local service is better.
You're just jealous because WMATA doesn't have any express service :-)
At least our trains run faster on straight tracks than on switches. I would say the difference between the two isn't too great up in your territory.
At least our trains run faster on straight tracks than on switches.
Hey, the R68 hippos don't equip every NYCTA line!
I have yet to see subway trains going 75 MPH in New York. Let me know when you do.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the current fleet isn't capable of going 75 MPH. Also, a really long stretch would be necessary such as Fulton St in Brooklyn, CPW, or Queens Blvd.
That's my point. Your trains can't run 75 MPH. Mine can. Look at the other posts in the thread.
36th is busy enough. Leave the N & w local all the time. Express W had it's chance and it was an utterly fustrating failure that resulted in at LEAST 10 minute headways for anyone not at 25th av or ditmars during rush hour. If something went wrong, it was a 15-20 minute headway, as empty W's went by.
that crap wasn't service, it was a complete waste and a stupid service pattern that at least a few people should be fired for.
W express is stupid. Then again, I never liked the West End train to begin with.
Going toward Queens: (If W is express in Queens)
N & W have to fight it out entering 36th St/4th Ave.
N & W have to fight it out entering 42nd Street/Times Sq
N & W have to fight it out entering Ditmars.
One less altercation. Also, factor in M, R, Q trains and it's a mess.
The poor R train is usually stuck behind an N train at 34th St because they let the W go first...
W is usually LATE coming out of CI...delays M & N & R service along 4th Ave...
After its four year term, W should retire...
>>>After its four year term, W should retire... <<<
LOL.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, I get it . . .
In response from N to W. "Get the hell out of mah terrority"
N better learn to share, because the W line will most likely be maintained on the Astoria line long after the Manhattan bridge fully re-opens.
I hear that even the N is calling the W a wuss.
Most certainly of course N is calling the W "a wuss." Because the W is wuss as in capital W Train = "Wuss Train."
As matter of fact N wasn't the only route that hate W's gut. Also the M, R, and Q hate the W because the W gets a better treatment from its parents (TA). Oftenly whenever the W is late from CI, It effect M N Q R. Moreover, M N R Q always being held up 5-10 min at the station to wait for the W.
After its four year term, W should retire...
Four more years!
I think the W could still be useful when the MB reopens, just not as an express.
I was referring to another "dubya" ...
Oh no, not THAT dubya!!!
Oh no, not THAT dubya!!!
That gives me an idea - get Bush to give the subway $30 trillion and rename Chambers WTC after him.
I've already said it: if Bush can deliver all the money the federal government promised to NYC for 9/11, he wins New York in 2004, and that assures his re-election. I hope his political advisors understand this.
W is usually LATE coming out of CI...delays M & N & R service along 4th Ave...
I definetly agree with that.
In Brooklyn, NB rush hour is like this: the R is stuck behind an M train. The M must connect with the N at 36st, while the R connects with the N at 59th St. The W gets priority over the N coming into 36st (probably because of bridge), so the N waits for the W to leave, then comes in. M comes after W, and N meets M. R is waiting behind M south of 36st. 95% of the time, the N needs to wait for the W to GET to 36st! Thus making the R wait even longer because the M is somewhere behind the W and it needs to clear 36 for the R.
Because of the W coming out of CI late (in my opinion they need an extra 2 minutes of running time), many PM M intervals leave Bay Pkwy late, causing the R to sneak ahead of it at 36th making the M later and making the M later still because the J it should be ahead of at Broad St. snuck ahead as well! I speak from personal daily operating experience. 5/12/02 won't come soon enough for me!
speak from personal daily operating experience. 5/12/02 won't come soon enough for me!
What happens on 5/12/02?
Oh and by the way the M has always been a stepchild. I don't have as much experience with it now as years ago when I lived in Ridgewood, but back then it never ran as good as the other lines. The J always seemed to come first or faster. Things haven't changed much obviously.
5/12/02 is the implimentation of the next B division pick. We start picking tomorrow. I will not be picking a job on the M line.
lol...........
My feeling is that they didn't give express service a chance.
It failed. With headways on the N being nearly 10 minutes, justifying empty W trains bypassing 4 heavily used local stops becomes impossible.
It's gone, for good I hope.
I agree with you Chris, and I WANTED the Astoria Express to work out. Only when (or more accurately if) the MTA extends the Astoria Line to LaGuardia, would there be justification for running the Astoria Express. Unfortunately, by the time that happens the whole Astoria El would have demolecularized.
Only when (or more accurately if) the MTA extends the Astoria Line to LaGuardia, would there be justification for running the Astoria Express. Unfortunately, by the time that happens the whole Astoria El would have demolecularized.
I've come up with a kinda nice idea to extend the N to LGA in a way which should at least reduce the NIMBYism.
Branch off the existing Astoria Line onto the Grand Central Parkway, probably by means of an El on 27th Av (NIMBY alert!). 2 track line. Stations at 37th St, 49th St, 77th St, La Guardia Airport.
Then either (A) cheap or (B) expensive for the rest of the Astoria Line:
(A) convert 30th Av into a 3 platform station and run a shuttle (S) to Astoria Bvd and Ditmars Bvd from the extra platform.
(B) take the Crosstown Line (G) out of its subway along Jackson Av, with a new Court Sq station, onto an El, with a station connecting QP and QBP. Then a junction with the Astoria Line, taking over the branch to Ditmars Bvd, then extended along 31st St, with a station at 20th Av, then curving onto 19th Av or Berman Bvd, station at Steinway St, curving back onto the Riker's Island bridge, station at Riker's Island, new bridge onto the mainland, El along Hallack St, stations at East Bay Av, La Fayette Av, onto the Sheridan Expressway, connection with the (6) at Whitlock, station at Jennings St,
I dont think the city wants a station at Riker's, and i dont think the station will get very much traffic other than the occasional prison guard, visitor, and escaped convict. And they are trying to revitalize the court square area, i think a new el is the last thing they want.
Only when (or more accurately if) the MTA extends the Astoria Line to LaGuardia, would there be justification for running the Astoria Express. Unfortunately, by the time that happens the whole Astoria El would have demolecularized.
I've come up with a kinda nice idea to extend the N to LGA in a way which should at least reduce the NIMBYism.
Branch off the existing Astoria Line onto the Grand Central Parkway, probably by means of an El on 27th Av (NIMBY alert!). 2 track line. Stations at 37th St, 49th St, 77th St, La Guardia Airport.
Then either (A) cheap or (B) expensive for the rest of the Astoria Line:
(A) convert 30th Av into a 3 platform station and run a shuttle (S) to Astoria Bvd and Ditmars Bvd from the extra platform.
(B) take the Crosstown Line (G) out of its subway along Jackson Av, with a new Court Sq station, onto an El, with a station connecting QP and QBP. Then a junction with the Astoria Line, taking over the branch to Ditmars Bvd, then extended along 31st St, with a station at 20th Av, then curving onto 19th Av or Berman Bvd, station at Steinway St, curving back onto the Riker's Island bridge, station at Riker's Island, new bridge onto the mainland, El along Hallack St, stations at East Bay Av, La Fayette Av, onto the Sheridan Expressway, connection with the (6) at Whitlock, station at Jennings St, connection to (2)(5) at West Farms, along Boston Rd, Bronx Park S, E182 St, E184 St, stations at Crotona Pkwy, Quarry Rd, then along Fordham Rd, station at Park Av, continuing along Kingsbridge Rd connection to the (C)(D) at Kingsbridge and Concourse, connection to the (4) at Kingsbridge and Jerome, station st University Av, terminus and connection to (1) at 225th St Marble Hill. How's that for an unaffordable NIMBY-provoking Subtallk fantasy?
Spotted cars 1851-55/1866-70 on the 1 line yesterday. Fresh from the 6, sporting Pelham stickers and #6 signs between cars.
These 10 cars are being based to Livonia and are technically now assigned to the 3 line. If and when, they would get Blue Tape.
The stage may now be set for the first 11-car train of single R-62As to move to Corona for Instruction and testing...we'll see.
Thanks for the heads up!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
According to this article, the new R142s are starting up too fast.
What is the accelaration rate of a R142 and how fast was it accelarating under certain load conditions, as the article mentions "a little too fast". 3MPS? 4MPS?
R142 Article
lets see unrealistic running times too many grade timers and our new darlins the R142/R142a accelerate too fast? It makes no sense having trains operate to a maximum of 40 mph since new grade timers pop up everywhere. BUT having a train with a slower maximum top speed but at least have a good acceleration rate and maybe just maybe you can get trains somewhere on time.
There is the psycho factor. There are certain places (fewer and fewer) where even with slow train you could get enough speed up to hit a homeball and still hit the train in the interlocking. While unstated it is in the mind of the planners.
What is the rate of accelaration on the following systems?
Washington D.C.
SEPTA Broad Street
BART
Metro in toronto
What is the rate of accelaration on the following systems?
Washington D.C.
SEPTA Broad Street
BART
Metro in toronto
I'm planning a trip between Little Italy and Coney Island (Brooklyn Aquarium, etc..) for myself, my Brother and my Nephews. I know my Nephews will get a kick out of the railfan window and don't want to do the trip without it. My Brother is an impatient type and wants to do this as quickly as possible. So what I need to know is between Brighton, West End, Sea Beach and Culver, which line is my best choice? Best choice is based on:
* likelihood of railfan window.
* fastest possible ride - in total time travel.
If you have a suggestion - please tell me the travel time if you know it and keep in mind that this is for a weekend day time trip.
Thanks in advance!
Had you been going during the week, an R-40 Brighton Express would not only be (probably) your best time saver, it has the best railfan windows, too.
As it is, I think the only R-40s running on the weekends ply their trade on the N/SeaBeach. The Culver is out because most of the Fs have the windows on the door of the cab papered/painted over.
So, my guess would be...N on the way out, Q on the way back. Others may have better ideas...
Cheers,
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
If you start your trip at Canal St, the chances are any railfan window would already have been taken. I would take a Brooklyn-bound Q, which at least gives you a spectacular view of Manhattan from the Manhattan Bridge. The trip to West 8th St (the Aquarium stop) takes about 43 minutes.
I say the Q with a Slant, goes right to West 8th St, The F does not have rail fan windows, The W is 5 blocks away, and the N only goes to 86th St. On the way back if you go to Nathans take the W back, it is the fastest
>> I say the Q with a Slant, goes right to West 8th St <<
The original poster made it clear he would be traveling on a weekend, thus ruling out slant R-40s on the Brighton... (unless you've seen R40s running local on the weekends, my experience is they're all R68s)
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
(Q) is R-68's sometimes having R-68A's. R-40's run on on weekdays only with the rest running on (N) weekends, but only to 86th St. Actually the R-68 is not bad, but the full-length cab window is in the way. Those windows are not blocked at all on the R-68's, especially on the Brighton Line which will give somewhat of a railfan view. Have a good ride!
So you take the Sea Beach to 86th Street. Big deal. You get out and walk six or seven blocks to work up an appetite and burn a bunch of calories. That will stimulate you and make you healthier.
More then 6-7 Blocks, 6 Blocks to Stillwell and another mile to CI
Hardly a sweat. Good way to work up an appetite.
I agree with your idea. The Sea Beach on the way down, the Brighton on the way back.
You're in a moral dilemma. Here's why:
The (N) Sea Beach would be your best bet for the railfan window, HOWEVER, it ALWAYS terminates at 86th Street and West 7th Street, making it a not-so-fast, if even possible, ride to the Aquarium.
The (Q) Brighton is the ONLY line that runs on the weekends...the Brighton EXPRESS only runs during the week and would have been the BEST option for a railfan window. As it is, the (Q) Brighton Local runs R-68's and their windows are not so clear to see through or are papered over, so that's outta the question.
Like someone else said in another response, the (F) Culver is definitely out of the question. Not is it only slower than molasses, but it uses R-46's, also meaning the same thing as the 68's with their windows.
The (W) West End Local [the (M) Nassau/West End Local doesn't run all the way to Bay Pkwy. on the weekends] uses R-68's and 68Alphas, and also wouldn't be a good railfanning experience.
The ONLY possible suggestion I can make, as a railfan and SubTalker, is to the the (N) to New Utrecht Avenue--stay in the back of the train, so you can easily and quickly transfer--and transfer to the (W) for the rest of the trip to Coney Island. If you're taking the subway to the aquarium directly, then I'd recommend that you change at Stillwell Avenue for the (Q) or (F) one stop to West 8th Street.
Hope I could help.
Stuart, RLine86Man
>>> The ONLY possible suggestion I can make, as a railfan and SubTalker, is to the the (N) to New Utrecht Avenue--stay in the back of the train, <<<
???? If he is taking this train specifically for the rail fan window, it makes no sense to stay in the back of the train.
Tom
For me, preferably, I would say Brighton. It has been recently renovated, and the viaduct section is stunning...it's very zen. I dunno about the railfan windows for the Brighton tho, I haven't been on it since orange (6th Av) Q trains ran on that line from 21 St-Queensbridge (about 1996.) I know the trains then had 'em, but I dunno about now.
-J!
I ride SEPTA's the subway-surface trolleys every day, but I almost never get to ride SEPTA's suburban light rail routes 100, 101, and 102. Does anyone know if 2-car consists are ever run on these lines, or is single-car service the rule? I know I've seen pictures of multi-car consists on this website, but I think those were from fan trips. I'm curious what the case is for revenue service.
Mark
On peak times, 2-car 100 trains run. I believe the same goes for the other two.
Thanks. I'll have to head out to 69th Street some afternoon to try to see them.
Mark
On the former Red Arrow trolley routes, two-car trains run on a pair of school trips to Sharon Hill (Route 102)in the afternoon and to Woodland Avenue (Springfield, Route 101) on the Media line, leaving 69th St. Terminal around 5:30 p.m. None of these operate in the summer months when school is out and rush-hour ridership is likely lower because of people being on vacation.
The two-car trains are quite a sight snaking through the street around Clifton/Aldan on Route 102.
Route 100 (P&W) used to run two-car trains during AM rush. The first car went to Norristown and the second cut back at Villanova or Conshohocken Road. The cars were MU'd, so the motorman in the second car just operated the bell and the door: one bell to stop at the next station, two to proceed.
...the motorman in the second car just operated the bell and the door: one bell to stop at the next station, two to proceed.
And three bells to cancel the two-bell signal and STOP!!!
The 100 express to & from Norristown still runs
2 cars, the first car is for passengers going past Bryn Mawr
the second is for people getting off at Bryn Mawr which I think
is the 1st stop after leaving 69th st
It is a little confusing, and I may not be right on this
Also you pay before getting off, another strange thing to me.
You're thinking back a long ways. I'm not familiar with current weekday operation from personal experience (although I have ridden on the weekend), but according to SEPTA's website the Route 100 weekday schedule has express trains that leave 69th Street Terminal two minutes before the local, skipping five stations before stopping at Ardmore Junction, skipping two more before stopping at Bryn Mawr, and then making local stops (all flag stops) at the next eleven stations before arriving at the Norristown Transportation Center.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's how the expresses ran when I rode (1972-1987).
That's correct. The old two-car trains that broke up at Bryn Mawr, etc don't operate that way any more.
Additionally, on the way-back-when department, some peak-hour runs began and ended at Wynnewood Rd, where there is a center turnback track similar to Bryn Mawr's layout. For those not familiar with the line, Wynnewood Rd is about 6 minutes out of 69th St! This service ended in the early 70's (back when it was still called Conshohocken Rd even though the road name had long since changed to Matsonford (the current station name)).
Wait a minute... I know of the mid-90s renaming of the station - I voted for "Matsonford", so I'm happy - but you mean to say that Matsonford Road ITSELF was once known as Conshohocken Road?
Stranger still: the updated signage (pre-renaming) only had "Conshohocken" printed on it... wonder if that ever confused anybody? The actual Conshohocken Road is on the other side of the Schyulkill River, and was the only street that could be used to access Mogees station on the R6 Norristown line back when the station was open. (I think it closed at the same time as Westmoreland on the R8)
From what I've heard, Matsonford Rd was once Conshohocken Rd. Of course, this changes to Fayette St in West Conshy and Butler Pike once you get up toward Ridge Pike - almost as confusing as all those Gulph Rd variations. Yes, there is another Conshy Rd leading down from Ridge Pike to Mogees, and that still retains its original name.
I was surprised how many votes SEPTA got to keep the Conshy Rd name when this was being considered. The old P & W has a number of station names which still hold long-ago place names, e.g. Parkview, Beechwood-Brookline, Garrett Hill, Hughes Park, King Manor.
Well Mark SEPTA been put an end to 2-cars trains on the Sub-Sur Lines for like 5yrs now. They said the reason was new ADA regulations required that the second car of the train has to be ADA accessible and since the K-cars don't wheelchair lifts they had to cut 2-car train service. I don't really believe that 'cuz Boston still run 2car trains and their LRVs don't have wheelchair lifts on 'em either. But SEPTA used to run three 2-car trains 1 on the rt 10 and the other two on the 13. Another rumor was becuase how far the couplers stuck out when 2-car trains were in use. They were afraid that people would walk between the trolleys trying to cross the street. So eventually, the yardmen at Elmwood Depot installed bungy cords btwn the 1st and 2nd car to prevent people from trying cross btwn trolleys. It was fun to ride when they were in service though. My uncle was one of the first operators to work th MU on the 13 back in the mid-90s. I used to sit in the second car watch the trolley pole sometimes and watch it arc as it went thru special work (overhead) and watching the lead car making those sharp turns in the tunnel. The whole operation totally fascinated me which made me get into LRVs more...Oh yeah before i forget the only time they run 2-car trains on the 101 or 102 is for school trippers only. As for the 100 i'm not sure if 2-car trains still run on that line but more and likely they still do since all the platforms on that line are high and some stations are accessible (Norristown only to be x-act). So i hope i was some help in answering your questions Mark.
Have a Good Weekend!!!
Nia
I think some 2-car consists on the subway-surface lines are needed because they sure are packed during the evening rush hour. It'd be nice if they still ran them on 13 because that's my route. Too bad.
The reasoning is odd, because is single car any more handicapped accessible? So the regulation that only applies to multi-car consists? Strange.
Of course, when one considers how many of SEPTA's subway and el stations aren't ADA compliant, it seems even sillier.
Of course, I'm also thankful that we have trolleys at all, that they're routed through the tunnels so they can't be converted to bus lines!
By the way, did a few bungee cords stop any passers-through?
Mark
i have to agree with you Mark. Actually articlated LRVs would've been smarter. But to answer your last question the bungy cords did infact keep people from crossing btwn the cars. Now if SEPTA was to acquire new LRVs they would definitely be artciculated and ADA accessible. As far as I'm concerned they need to jump on the bandwagon like everybody else 'cuz prices for LRVs are going up and up...'cuz we all know how cheap SEPTA is. SEPTA been supposed to have new LRVs by now but instead they purchsed those stinkin' NABI buses back in'95-'97 that are now nothing but rectangular pieces of junk.
Nia
are any of SEPTAs car barns capable of maintaining low floor or long articulated units? If not that may be a major expense and a big impediment to buying new equipment.
They're setting Elmwood up for the low floors. I imagine Callowhill will be set for them also. The Route 10 trolley is supposed to be once again operated out of Callowhill, and all five Subway-Surface lines are to be receiving these. Callowhill will also be used for the Kawasaki cars that get moved to the 15 trolley route.
Actually, Route 10 may be split between Elmwood and callowhill, as it was maybe, 13 years ago.
Not sure about articulated trolleys. And, no, I don't believe 69th St. has maintenance capabilities for either. If they ever find some reason to replace or add to the double ended LRV fleet, they'll likely come across such a scenario. The rehab work over at 69th St. Shops has so far been limited to the Market-Frankford carbarns, and nothing has been mentioned about the LRV shop.
>>They said the reason was new ADA regulations required that the second car of the train has to be ADA accessible<<
I believe Portland's (Oregon) light rail system does this too. The original high floor cars are mixed with the new low floor cars in four car sets. Their LRVs are two car units.
Bill "Newkirk"
Portland does do this, although there are enough low-floor cars to run two-car low-floor trains. If a high-floor car runs it must hook up with a low-floor for ADA reasons.
ADA can't apply to the subway-surface. First of all, the cars are not accessible in any way, shape or form. Second of all, none of the subway stations are accessible (although Juniper and 30th are planned shortly). The real reason for the end of the two-car subway-surface trains was twofold - accidents (autos at intersections tended to hit the second car, not expecting it, when they pulled out of side streets when the first car passed - yes, you would think someone would have to be blind not to see this, but this is the caliber of driver on the road today!) and labor (the second car had to carry an operator to collect fares, so there was no savings over operation of a single car).
As far as capabilties to maintain low-floor or articulated cars, to the best of my knowledge, Elmwood and 69th St are both designed for this. The next SEPTA order of LRV's will no doubt be low-floor but I don't think we'll see articulateds. I'm not sure, as Ms. SEPTA stated, that SEPTA bought the NABI buses instead of LRV's since the K cars are only 20 years old and there still is no talk of replacements - they're in that good a shape. (I do agree about the NABI's though - I dislike them also!)
Indeed the unions are still fighting Mr Sprague's innovation of 1898. although they have finally caved in in San Francisco. Proof of Payment covers the fare issue.
Definitely not. SEPTA bought the free-of-leg room-for-the-tall-rider NABIs to replace the old GMC RTS II buses that had been around at least since SEPTA's Flxible days (Which ended in about 1988). Recently, they've recieved new 40-foot low floor buses, though I'm not sure if those are also NABIs. All I know as far as new buses go, is that the 150+ articulated buses, replacements and additions to their former Volvo fleet, are from Neoplan. Neoplan is responsible for their 3000-series buses, and the dwindling 8000-series and 1000-series (if any of them remain) fleet, the latter two of which entered the system in 1984.
Strange. A fleet of buses only aged 18 years (Neoplan 1000/8000 series and Volvo 7000 series, of which there were only 50) gets replaced, yet nothing new on the now 20+ year Broad Street Line cars. Going from single shipments to married pairs would allow for longer local/express/special trains, and still leave two-car consists for the Broad-Ridge Spur. SEPTA has time and time again claimed that 20 years isn't long enough to replace thier vehicles, be it bus, subway, OR light rail.
So why are we seeing two new bus fleets in roughly the same year, yet no plans on new BSS cars?
In all this, you think I've forgotten the subject of LRVs, yes? Well, the only reason for the new shipment is this: The low floor LRVs will be used for wheelchair access from the surface, and at 30th Street and Juniper/13th Street stations. Once they begin to appear, the Kawasaki LRVs will not be displaced, but rather, moved. Since the bus takeover in 1992, the only time the Route 15 (Girard Avenue) line has seen trolleycars was in 1995, when the 10 was having a track renovation and pump replacement along Lancaster Avenue. Well, since about late 1997, plans had been made for the retoration of the line to full rail standards... before hearing from the city about going back on their word to restore trolley service to their remaining three streetcar routes.
I wonder if they plan to restore Germantown or Luzerne depots for trolley maintenance. The next line likely to get its trolleys back is the 56 on Erie/Torresdale Avenues. The 23 should follow that, though the narrow streets on which it operates could pose a construction and detouring problem. Erie and Torresdale Avenues have space for ROW, much like Girard.
The low-floors are from New Flyer.
Buses aren't designed to last as long as rail cars. The age at which FTA will allow transit properties to retire buses is 12 years. It doesn't seem like that long, but that's the fact. SEPTA has kept buses longer than that, although it's not a testament to its maintenance practices (the '80 RTS's were kept past the point of retirement, in my opinion - they only got worse after their midlife overhaul). The NABI's are currently going through overhaul even though most have only been on the property for 5 years.
The 8000 group of Neoplans is all but gone and the few remaining will disappear when the next batch of low-floors shows up next month. The 1300's are in the same boat - I think two are left of the fleet of 25. The ElDorado 30' buses (4500 group) did them in.
The Broad St cars are only halfway through their service lives. Keep in mind that the original fleet was in service for between 47 and 57 years before they were all displaced by the K's. The El's fleet of Budd cars also survived for almost 40 years before the M-4's took over. The Broad St fleet is still in good shape and the cars look pretty spiffy despite their heavy use. The only thing I'd personally like to see change is the destination sign, which I never liked from the start - the signs are small and hard to see. Even though the emphasis is to check marker lights for your train, it's not always easy to do. In these days of electronic signs, there are better alternatives.
The Broad St cars are not married pairs. The 500 group has a single cab and the 650 group has two cabs, but they are all single units.
Callowhill Depot will be rehabbed to house the PCC fleet for 15 and some K's for 10 but it will not be capable of any major maintenance. Cars will still have to travel to Elmwood for that. Thus, whether it can handle low-floor cars is not in the question. The long-term plans have SEPTA moving out of Callowhill, possibly to another facility in Parkside but it will likely only be a storage facility.
To the best of my knowledge there are no plans 'on the books' for new light rail cars on the SEPTA system. There had been plans to buy some low-floor cars for the subway-surface lines to displace K cars for 15 but these fell through. This is why the PCC's are being rehabbed for 15.
If either 23 or 56 come back, 23 is more likely given the state of fixed facilities and public support. The streets are narrow but most of the rail is under 20 years old and has seen little use in the past 10 years. 56 has major rail/power problems, although the possibilities of separated R/W are better. SEPTA is reportedly planning to demolish Luzerne at some point so a storage facility would be needed, and Midvale (the bus replacement of Luzerne) is not very convenient to the rail system.
oh, my.
Dispose of Callowhill? I hope that only applies to rail lines... If the Parkside facility I've only heard rumors about is to be used as a mere "storage facility", where will QC be done on every bus route that Callowhill runs... solo (i.e. the 21, 38, 44, etc)
I knew the Broad Street Line didn't use married pairs, though I'd no idea about any difference in the roster. I was speaking in terms of new shipments... six car consists of new cars to replace the five-car consists, and still have enough pairs left over to be used for everyday Broad-Ridge Spur usage. And you're right about the signs. One car is permanently stuck on the 8th Street/Erie Local designation, another has a permanent Olney/Walnut Express... personally, I figure they should keep the colored mrker lights, but use digital signs similar to those WMATA uses... let the front/rear cab signs identify the the service level (the front being flanked by the marker lights), and let the side signs identify the point of destination. Not Origin/Destination/Service Level. Just the destination.
Of course that's wishful thinking, but you never know. If they ever get this "Schuylkill Valley Metro" and the less mentioned "Cross-County Metro" in operation, they might purchase some new BSS cars to make their entire rail rolling stock seem "modern" (M4s, N5s, the K LRVs, and new BSL cars, plus whatever they use for the two Metros) Heck, they're already talking new Regional Rail cars... replacements to the Silverliner III fleet.
Oops. Forgot. Can't have a modern rolling stock with a bunch of PCCs running around. And didn't they send most of those to SF? Don't get me wrong, I love the PCCs. Make a point to drop by 1234 Market St. at least twice a week (best I can get on my schedule). But I don't see how SEPTA can possibly justify dropping plans for new, ADA-compliant trolley cars, especilly if they plan to install elevators leading to three Subway-Surface platforms.
Though, I will admit to curiosity. Since they re-painted most of their bus/trolley fleet to match the NABIs, and had everything new painted in that design, I wondered how a PCC would look in SEPTA's "new" scheme.
New cars of the Broad Street specifications will have to be purchased if the time ever comes when a subway is built under Roosevelt Boulevard, as it would tie into the BSS.
Of course, that is a long time in the hypothetical future.
Mark
The replacement for Callowhill will still maintain buses but will merely store rail cars (same as the 'revitalized' Callowhill will do with the PCC's being rebuilt for 15). Keep in mind that Callowhill is a converted trolley depot which is barely maintaining buses as it is due to the facility's limitations. Two others of the same mold, Luzerne and Southern, were replaced (the former) or extensively rebuilt (the latter) due to their inability to properly maintain the bus fleet.
The lack of 6-car trains on Broad St is another SEPTA misstep, just as the 112-car order for K's for the subway-surface. Little room for expansion was provided in either order. If the Northeast line is ever built, it will use Broad St, thus SEPTA would do well to order some extra cars. On the other extreme, the N-5 was over-ordered to account for future service which still is only in the planning stages (Rt 100 extension to King of Prussia).
Marker lights on Broad St work well until you're rushing down to a platform to board a train just pulling in - then you have to find one of those tiny signs (you'll almost never understand the announcement - if one is even made). The only services that need to be shown on signs are Express/Local - 8th/Market is fairly self-explanatory.
I don't think Trolleys on the 23 Line are ever going to come back. A Communty Board did a trip on a PCC on part of the 23 Line once and they find out that ALOT of cars Dobble Parked on the Trolley Tracks and the upper part of the 23 Line have only a lane of traffic each way to pass by parked cars. So the Trolleys on the 23 would never come back
I heard abouth that... however, they also brought up the issue of stronger parking law enforcement. Likely, if the city wants the trolleys back as badly as they seem to, they'll do anything to ensure a return of them. They were ready to take legal action for the Route 15, perhaps they'd be willing to enforce parking laws on Germantown Avenue, 11th St, 12th St, and the shorther stretches of track along the 23 line if it meant the trolleys would return. And I'm almost sure they will, since 1) Leary's nearly outta the picture and 2) SEPTA would hear it from every railfan and rail activist within a five-state radius of Pennsylvania if they took the wires down and tracks up.
Still, the 23 won't be back to trolley service for a long time. The 15 gets done first, then probably the 56.
The double-parking is an interesting chicken/egg thing. When 23 trolleys were frequent on Germantown Ave, people knew that double-parking wasn't going to work and they wouldn't do it. Now that the trolleys are gone, that knowledge is also history, and people know that no one will be blocked by double-parking.
I think 23 will be back before 56, for reasons previously stated, but I wouldn't hold my breath for either one in the next 10 years.
do they use cars like this one ?
Salaamallah, you still can't see any pic you post. Geocities won't, Tripod won't.
BTW this is what you see on your post: "Image Hosted by (image) tripod. www.tripod.com.
Please try to find a provider that will let us see them. Your stuff is too good to miss.
Ok, I have a question about the announcements on the R-142s. How are these designed technically to be updated? The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering what is involved in changing the announcments as the subway system grows and changes. For instance, at Atlantic Ave, they always come on the PA after the recording and correct the announcment which says transfer to the B, and they say transfer to the W at Pacific. Did they design the computer system on these trains so its easy to change these?
And I also extend this question to the station progress sign which has the lights that change as you pass each station. What happens when stations is changed or removed? For instance the 3 trains which don't go to Brooklyn anymore? At least for these signs, it seems like not a very scalable solution (language from a computer programmer). Whenever a line changes, it seems they have to reprint all of the signs, and maybe add more light bulbs? Can you even do that? It seems like the best way to do it would've been to make the signs all electronic, similar to some of the electronic roll signs on the N-R lines (are those LCD?). Then when the line changes, just reprogram a computer somewhere and all the signs are updated.
I guess thats in an ideal world of unlimmited budgets. But then again, what are the costs involved of changing all those little light bulbs??
Wayne
Those little light bulbs as you put it actually EXTEND beyond the locations they are now (to around the edge of the current map, IIRC...so there's room for "expansion" on that front....now as far as the AAS (automated announcement system) goes, I don't know....you'll have to defer to someone else who's actually familiar with THOSE actual systems...someone who works in the MTA's CI barns, etc, etc (like CI Peter [aka "OnTheJuice"])
Stuart, RLine86Man
The announcements, which were recorded by human beings (who work for Bloomberg Radio), would have to be re-recorded (by the same people or by others).
David
Yep..........
Bloomy owns that wadio station?????????????????????????
(Wouldn't be surprising, would it?)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Everyone does 'voiceover' work...public service messages aren't a conflict of interest...you get paid 'scale' and Bloomie gets 'subliminal advertising ('Hey- I know that voice.') CI Peter tonignt on 3885 AM!
Yeah but I think it would be better to have a REAL subway fan do the announcements -- who also does voiceovers for a living :-)
...Yours in Transit and Weather Together
"Hallo good evening this is a northbawned numbah five express at Lexxxintonn Avenue and fiftee nynth street. Next stop will be aighty sixth street and Lexxxington. Do not lean on the closing doorrs. Pleeese watch the closing of the opening doorrs thanhkyouverrrrymuch." I love my job, everyday. CI Peter
*lmao*
dankyaveeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrymush :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
But can you do it without accidentally saying "CBS Newstime is ..."? :)
'CeeBeeEss newstime is now 6PM Namaste. Pleese do not not lean on the doorrs. Pleese watch the closing of the opening doorrs thankyouverrrrymuch.'
Yeah.........now I know what the newspapers meant by 142's singing....I saw a 142 (2) pull into Atlantic Avenue this morning while waiting for a (4) or <5> to BB for the (6)...and as the 142 was pulling out of the station, I HEARD the 3 "song tones" and said....."Whoaaaaaaaa........they wuzn't lying!!"
Stuart, RLine86 and 4/5LineAtlantic and 1/2LineAtlanticMan
Sometimes SEPTA's subway-surface trolleys do the same thing. I can sometimes hear two vibrations, coming from overhead, and the two are precisely a major third apart in pitch, making a lovely sound as we roll through West Philly.
As I've said before, trains are the most musical of all machines.
Mark
The 3 tones are very clear, but it's not "Somewhere" from West Side Story, nor "Fanfare for the Common Man" by Aaron Copeland, as the interviewees in the paper claimed. It's simply the sound of "gears shifting" from first to second to third. In fact, it's not 3 distinct pitches at all. Rather, it is 3, separate, ascending metallic, whistling/humming sounds, each starting lower on the scale and then rising in pitch. The beginning "gears" ascend the chromatic scale more quickly than the last. This is the same "music" you hear as you drive a stick shift automobile, but in the R-142s, it's played on an electromotive instrument! Maybe a T/O Subtalker can fess up -- there's a clutch on the floor of the cab, isn't there?! :O)
I admit it........there IS.............and if da cluth dies on us in the cab, then the twain is (in the werds of Kevin/Selkirk) BROKE.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Damn right ... obviously Cottman transmission pulled a fast one on us all. I was wondering what became of all those bus transmissions from the fishbowls. :)
The prewar cars were the most musical, IMHO.
Now that I've gotten a taste of an NYsubway sim thru BVE (now completely defunct and inactive), I was looking at MSTS the last time I was at Future Shop (Canada's equivalent of Circuit City or something like that)...
and I was wondering, if there was any fan-programmed sims for the NYsubway for MSTS? If so, do you know any links? I am planning on getting MSTS next month.
-J!
Yes there are....forgot the URLs........
But to be totally honest, MSTS isn't that well suited for subway work, even though it is possible with some jerry-rigging...
Personally, I'd LOVE to get a few Metro-North and or Long Island Rail Road routes....if anybody has ever seen any for MSTS...I'd REALLY appreciate a heads-up as to where they are.
Thanks a whole bunch.
Stuart, RLine86 and LIRRJamaica/Babylon/Bay Shore and MNRRWhitePlains/Danbury/PoughkeepsieMan
Stuart, RLine86 and LIRRJamaica/Babylon/Bay Shore and MNRRWhitePlains/Danbury/PoughkeepsieMan
I hope you don't ride all those lines every day!
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Stuart, RLine86Man
1-18-02 Own a Piece of the Bergen Tunnel
NJ TRANSIT is selling bricks and rocks from the north tube of the former DL&W Bergen Tunnels. NJ TRANSIT is currently rehabilitating the tunnels, which includes the re-lining of the inside of the bore.
1-4-02 Lackawanna Steam Era Comes to a Close
The last active DL&W steam locomotive engineer, Bill Davidson, is set to retire from NJ TRANSIT on January 4th, 2002. NJT employee, and Unofficial NJ TRANSIT Website contributor, Pat Lederer has written a great article about Bill and the event, and it can be seen here:
12-12-01 Montclair Connection Opening Draws Closer
In anticipation of the opening of the Montclair Connection in spring 2002, NJ TRANSIT will begin testing overhead wires that provide power to the connection¡¯s new signal system this week
12-12-01 Comet II//IIB Rebuild Information Updated
NJ TRANSIT has officially announced that the Comet IIB railcars will be included in the Comet II Rebuild Program. For more information, visit the Comet II Rebuild page.
Since MIchael Steinberg has updated his webpage thoroughly, individual links (I don't think) could be made. Please visit The Hoboken Terminal Webpage and click on the left menu "NJ TRANSIT News" to read the information and press releases and such.
The site is much improved with spectacular updates and a new design.
Thank You.
Thanks, Pete.
Anybody for the bricks and rocks to add to their collections?????
I'm real curious how they are going to fit trains from Montclair into NY Penn. Most of the trains recently added to the new January schedule were Midtown Direct - Summit Locals. We could sure use a few more trains along the Northeast Corridor line.
Today was the day that a very high-level meeting was held to decide the future #7 line fleet. The options:
Move the R-62A fleet to the #7 line 'immediately'.
Move the R-33 ML cars to the #7 line as an intermediate step.
No word, yet as to the outcome of the meeting.....
I seriously hope they decide on the first option. It would be crazy to replace the World's Fair R36's with older ML R33's, even as an intermediate step.
i also imagine it would cost more to move a fleet of cars over to the line, only to replace them yet again in another few months with still another fleet of cars. some R33s might make a decent suplement to the fleet, but it's a band-aid fix that won't 'stop the bleeding' n the long run... unless of course they rebuilt all them r33s... :)
TD -- Since the R-142s seemlingly aren't ready to fully take over on the mainline routes yet, are they talking about swapping the Lennox and Livona R-62As for the Redbirds for now and putting them on the No. 3 train, and then replacing the Redbirds on the 3 with R-142s at a later date? Or will they be able to speed up the timetable to put the remaining R-142s into service to the point that they can take the place of the R-62As on the 3 as the R-62As go over to Corona to replace the R-33/36 WFs (Or is there another option I haven't thought of)?
Now that you mention it, they should put the last Redbirds on one of the mainlines, since it will be easier to get them on barges from there. If they put R33s on the 7, while great for the railfan, that means moving cars to Corona and back again when it is time to scrap. If what you said holds true, then it is more logical to send the R62As right away (although I think most people know what I want).
Put the old cars on the #3. The Lex and the 7 carry too many people to put up with failing equipment. And aren't the old cars off SMS, to save wasting money on cars that are about to be scrapped?
Do you keep falling asleep at MTA or TWU meetings?
What about those long and boring conference calls?
Here's a way to change all of that!
1. Before (or during) your next meeting, seminar, or conference call, prepare your "Bullshirt Bingo" card by drawing a square. I find that 5" x 5" is a good size - and dividing it into columns - five across and five down. That will give you 25 1-inch blocks.
2. Write one of the following words/phrases in each block: synergy, strategic fit, core competencies, best practices, bottom line, revisit, take that off-line, 24/7, out of the loop, benchmark, value-added, proactive, win-win, think outside the box, fast track, result-driven, empower (or empowerment), knowledge base, at the end of the day, touch base, mindset, client focus (ed), ballpark, game plan, leverage.
3. Check off the appropriate block when you hear one of those words/phrases.
4. When you get five blocks horizontally, vertically, or diagonally, stand up and shout "BULLSHIRT!"
These are Testimonials from satisfied "Bullshirt Bingo" players:
· "I had been in the meeting for only five minutes when I won!
- Jack W., Boston
· "My attention span at meetings has improved dramatically!" - David D., Florida
· "What a gas! Meetings will never be the same for me after my first win." - Bill R. New York City
· "The atmosphere was tense in the last meeting as 14 of us waited for the fifth box!" -Ben G., Denver, CO
· The speaker was stunned as eight of us screamed "BULLSHIRT" for the third time in two hours !" - Kathleen L., Atlanta, GA
hah, thats soo dilberty.
Take the civil service test and get appointed - you'll find "state service" is Dilbert on steer-oids ... so much touchy-feely, it's like eating olive loaf until ya puke. :)
rotflmao...
I'm hard at work preparing a modified version to be used on Monday night! I'm also thinking about adding the horns from a diesel locomotive so that they can be blasted in the meeting room whenever someone wins!
-Robert King
NICE touch! Put it in the MTA suggestion box as well. And in your honor, special dispensation is granted to substitute "MDBF" for "bottom line" on your scorecards ... should result in a winner within seconds. :)
Oh yes, the bottom line, it'll speed up getting winners so much - Canada Post jacked up rates by one cent in January and it's caused a huge fuss to no end with a number of the people here! And I'm not joking either!
-Robert King
Well ... Canada Post is legendary in its inability to get anything from hither to yon without it being received by ancestors. Maybe that extra pence will get the mail there in your lifetime. :)
If it will, I'll gladly give up the penny. Hell, I'd even give up a whole nickel if it'd speed things up.
Let's do some math to see where the complaints about it are coming from though:
10 newsletters/year * 1 cent increase = additional costs of 10 whole cents per year per member to recieve the newsletter. I don't care, I probably drop twice that onto subway platforms every week and see it roll off the edge or otherwise loose bits and pieces of small change here and there. But I can't speak for people who think buying slides at 50 cents - Canadian cents - each is highway robbery.
-Robert King
I now have my own bulliten board (a devoid wasteland looking for attention) by the lockers. 'Bullshirt Bingo' is going up to post! i can just imagine: 'Yah Mon....Bullshirt....Wad I win?' CI Peter
Just this crappy Tshirt ... next time. :)
How about a shirt that says:
"I Went To An MTA Board Meeting And All I Got Was This
Crappy T-Shirt!"
Been done ... I can see you've been a GOOD boy and haven't gone down for a community whiz at HQ since Bongbong and I graced da management with our presence on Kissmoose day. Now Casual Friday is EVERY day down in GO land and all the natives frolic. Yeah, right.
Now don't give me any trouble, up against the wall mothersticker, this is a phuckup ... give me the shirt and nobody dies. Mr Green, do you have your cutting key? :)
"synergy, strategic fit, core competencies, best practices, bottom line, revisit, take that off-line, 24/7, out of
the loop, benchmark, value-added, proactive, win-win, think outside the box, fast track, result-driven, empower (or empowerment), knowledge base, at the end of
the day, touch base, mindset, client focus (ed), ballpark, game plan, leverage."
Looking at the above - seems like somebody's been listening in to our AT&T meetings. No wonder improvement is slow and painful. They've adopeted out corporate speak language.
Now that is something to type out on the old ASR33 AT&T 'ADNET' terminal. CI Peter
So how long did it take you to win your Tshirt? :)
>>Today was the day that a very high-level meeting was held to decide the future #7 line fleet<<
The suspense is killing me !!
Bill "Newkirk"
What suspense? We all know it's going to be R-62s or 62As (most likely As. I mean logically, what else is there?
Peace,
ANDEE
>>What suspense? We all know it's going to be R-62s or 62As (most likely As. I mean logically, what else is there?<<
What suspense? Well this question shows up every other day on this board. Someone is always talking about it. Now Train Dude says there was a high level meeting about whether to send the R-62As directly or the mailine cars first.
It's like awaiting the lotto winning numbers or a jury's verdict. It's like it's all coming to a head and we are anticipating the outcome. Sure we know the R-62As will go over to Corona eventually, we all just can't wait to fire up our cameras and start shooting both types of equipment during the transistion. Now that's what I call suspense !
Bill "Newkirk"
Nah, they're going to dredge the old redbirds, towel them off and put them back. Mark my words. :)
good ! just in time for the summer !!
( when i will B there ) !!!
Bring extra towels and a 600 volt hairdryer. Moo. :)
if they choose the latter option, it might mark the first time that mainline IRT rolling stock was moved to the Flushing line, and not vice versa.
It had been the original decision to sort out the Redbirds of worthiness for 7 line usage....looks like new tech vendors will 'battle to the death' in the subway arena and the decision will shuffle R62As into the toilet zone. CI Peter
What suspense? We all know it's going to be R-62s or 62As (most likely As). I mean logically, what else is there?
Peace,
ANDEE
From conversations with a person with whom I am well aquainted, and from my own monitoring of recent radio transmissions, MBDF of that fleet has to be at rock bottom right now or the numbers are being cooked. More alarming to me than anything else is a recent spat of BIE's with no cause found in addition to laydowns where 2nd car operation is used to get the train to the yard. Then when everything is normalised, no defect found!
Tsk tsk.....monitoring of radio transmissions. As fare as the increse of BIEs, safety notices relate them to NOT replacing lockwashers with NEW after trip cock adjustments....trip units are falling off the trucks. CI Peter
>>>....trip units are falling off the trucks<<<
Yeah, but I thought that was on the R-142s. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
So what is it that fellow SubTalkers have inferred into me? It is that the TA 'tells and teaches' us what they think we should know and learn...you'll be better at your work if you ask and observe. Reused split lockwashers on tripcock valve mountings are apparently breaking and the whole assembly is falling off the mount and the trainset is going BIE. There is a GO for the work...no mention of what trainset types are involved. This 'cure' doesn't completely apply to Kawasaki products...the whole mounting has been cracking off the trucks requiring metal welding in the shops. CI Peter
I hear they use Edison Convertors. They are not supposed to use these. They are obselete. They are the another cause of BIE's.
Gotta ask: what is an 'Edison Convertor?' CI Peter
The manufacturer of these troublesome converters.
Word from our superiors: 'Ruchnoi Pulomet Grenada.' CI Peter
Uhh... Stuffed Shells Rinaldi??
No. RPG Rambo style.
Geez, guy ... nobody in carbody has yet figured out the miracle of a bug to the raingutters above the doors? Instant arc-welding, carbody in one piece again ... for now. Welded to chassis (so what if the wheels suddenly lock up?) for goodski. Next best thing to a Budd shotweld. :)
Any word on when the Secaucus Transfer Station will open this year?
Any word on when the Secaucus Transfer Station will open this year?
IIRC, NJT has talked about postponing the scheduled opening because the trains to Penn are now so horribly crowded with the lower half of PATH gone. The concern is that added passengers from Secaucus would turn it from bad to unmanageable.
What is IIRC and some other symbols that are used on this site?
What is IIRC and some other symbols that are used on this site?
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
ROTFLMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off
and I'm sure there are others people will add ....
I found out that BTW is "by the way".
what is 'lol'? i thought maybe it was 'lots of luck' but some of the usage suggests otherwise.
Lots Of Laughs
Lots Of Laughs
I always thought it was Laughing Out Loud ...
AFAIK is as far as I know; I asked previously on this board once.
Here's one I would like to know what it means. It is something like ROFTLMO?
I think it's was ROTFLMAO - rolling on the floor laughing my ass off.
LOL=Laughing Out Loud
Anybody know what IINM means?
If I'm Not Mistaken
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks!
Here's a few more:
RTDM = Read The Dam Manual
OTOH = On The Other Hand
ROFL = Rolling On The Floor Laughing
RSN = Real Soon Now
CUL8R = See U Later
OIC = Oh Eye C
HPS = HayPaul Syndrome
MTBS = Mean Time Between Swipes
and more common:
ASAP, SASPO, F/U, MSG, B4,, FYI
Mr rt__:^)
Here's part of a press release from the official Port Authority web site (www.panynj.gov):
"In addition to constructing a new temporary PATH terminal for Lower Manhattan, the contract provides for restoring two PATH tunnels under the Hudson River, expansion of the Exchange Place PATH station in Jersey City, and the building of new crossovers that will allow PATH trains to cross between tunnels at Exchange Place. The new crossovers allow the Exchange Place station to become operational within 18 months, which will help Manhattan-bound commuters to access ferries to Lower Manhattan prior to the reopening of the WTC PATH station."
I don't know if this means they are going to reactivate the Penn Pocket or build a completely new crossover. Also, they may lenghthen the platforms, since it mentions "expansion" of the station. The press release also says the temporary WTC station should be ready in 2 years - about 6 months after Exchange Place reopens.
I don't know if this means they are going to reactivate the Penn Pocket or build a completely new crossover.
What is Penn Pocket?
The press release also says the temporary WTC station should be ready in 2 years - about 6 months after Exchange Place reopens.
Temporary? Where will it be located?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Temporary [WTC station]? Where will it be located?
It will be a rebuild of the old WTC station in the lowest level of the basement of the former complex. They will remove debris, restore platforms, and figure out some way (long stairs or escalators, perhaps temporary elevators) to get riders in and out of what will be, by then, a very large open air foundation.
The Penn Pocket is a long abandoned swithbach tunnel extending westward from Exchange Place. There's no track or switches, and some electrical equipment blocks it. Also, trains would have to make a triple reverse to use it - pull in on the eastbound track, reverse into the pocket, reverse again to pull into the westbound track, and reverse a third time to continue westward to Grove St.
The tripple reverse wopuld work fine for a limited shuttle service from JSQ.
The PATH restoration has three phases:
1) The contractor will construct a new ROW through the former Penn Pocket which will allow a train to terminate at Exchange Place when approaching from the west. This will take 18 months, and enable transfer to substitute ferry service for Manhattan.
2) The 1971 World Trade Center station will be rebuilt for service, but the exact configuration is anyone's guess at this point. The platforms are gradually being unearthed through recovery work and there is no longer an inbound ROW from the bathtub wall into the station. It's all rubble right now. Likely there will be a lengthy walkway from surrounding streets into the PATH terminal. This might also work into the Corlandt St. BMT station as it reopens. Whatever happens, we'll find out by mid-2004.
3) As part of overall redevelopment at the WTC site, PATH plans to reconstruct a permanent terminal using what's left of the former Hudson Terminal site. The old shell would be greatly enlarged and a fair amnount of new tunnel construction required. This all depends on the emergence of an overall redevelopment plan, and unfortunately the WTC's fate is stuck in the mud right now.
The New York Post did a lot of lucid editorializing on this subject today (Fri). Deservedly so!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Hey George !
Did they remove those trapped PATH cars from the WTC station ?
Bill "Newkirk"
> Did they remove those trapped PATH cars from the WTC station?
I would think they pulled them out with the scrap. Remember that one picture that showed them having uncovered all the way down to the stuck cars?
I don't think so. Only 3 of the 6 cars were crushed. The other 3 seemed fine, but may have water damage.
The Comet IV's IMO are the best designed and contain the best characteristics of commuter rail.
But there is still one intriguing thing about the signals that are installed into the train on each car. (exterior)
ALL exterior signals and door signals (6 per car) in the interior are LED lights. The green (clear, or go) is a "yellow green" color you see on children's Crayola crayons, and there's amber, red (which is separate from the amber and blue), and blue.
When a train has an amber light lit, and on top the BLUE lights are flashing on and off in increments of 1 second per "on/off" (on for 1 sec., off for 1 sec., on for 1 sec....), what does that signal signify of the train?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I think that the blue light means the handbrake is activated... The Metro-north Shoreliner IIIs have a similar light configuration and the blinking one is usually the cab car, which is usually the car that gets the handbrake set.
Train stuck, and massive congestion not only messed up the service on queens boulevard but also along 6 avenue, where an F train was held for 10 minutes at Rockerfeller Center because of Congestion. The E trains were running local, the V's had no where to go, R line was the only line that wasn't affected. It was messed up big time this evening.
Yeah, I was on the E, man you should see everyone's faces that was all broiled up. Some even said "Excuse me, what the f*** is going on, this train suppose to be f******* running express, not f****** local." "Others even said, "Oh great this is just f****** perfect, I had bad day at work, now I have go through this sh**." I gotta u, It was a mad house on the train today.
Seeing everyone all ticked up on today commute! I was like...okay, lets not mess with moody people.
What time? I caught an E train from 42nd St. around 4:45 this afternoon and I didn't notice any problems. However, there was an F train sitting motionless on D3 at 67th Ave.
Dan
A V train went in the hole at 47/50 about 4:20. The B and D service went down 8th Avenue. You were not alone in your motionless trek.
I must've been on the last D train uptown @ approx. 1615. I was wondering why we passed 5 sitting V/Fs between 34th and 47/50.
Peace,
ANDEE
I passed a few F trains on 8th Avenue myself. Lots of congestion to Canal, and again to Jay.
I was on a F train around 4:30 PM, and it was slow threw the tunnel all the way to Roosevelt Island.
N Bwy
There is finally a GO for the West End that does NOT screw the Sea Beach! Instead, it screws the Q trian!
W diversion (PDF format)
Q Shuttle (PDF format)
That just makes no sense at all. If one Q is running as a shuttle on the Brighton, and a second Q is running on the W, then the second Q, not touching the Brighton, but running on the West End, isn't a Q at all, it's a W running on the Broadway Line.
exactly!
The sense is simply that if they were to run the W all night to 57/7 and no Q in Manhattan, people wanting the Brighton and DeKalb ave would be waiting on the platform for the Q. People wishing the west end already know to take the Q and txfr later. The on-train announcement at DeKalb would surprise W passengers with a one-seat ride while people who wanted the Q Brighton are at least now in the correct borough before getting stranded.
As I was coming home from the movies, I took the 1 downtown to 86. I saw a redbird set on the n/b local track, doors closed, 2 cars didn't have lights on, all cab doors open. Anyone know what happened?
they were winking at you.
The O-Gauge Railroading Magazine website just posted photos of some new offerings that will be in the next MTH catalogue:
--A Four-car R-36 subway set in World's Fair Colors
--A Work train set, consisting of an SW-1500 Locomotive, a crane car, a tank car, and an R-21 car, all painted yellow and black.
(I better order some more Gargraves track and Ross switches for my yard---I'll need them)
They're nuts.
An SW1500 as a NYCT Diesel?
&@#$!
What are they thinking about?
-Stef
Maybe it's is a weed sprayer or M/W train (Sperry Rail Service has a few cars assembled from unfinished IRT car bodys.) The writer never stated the SW1500 was in NYCT colors.
As much as the SW's were mighty switchers, the TA was always in love with the mini GE's ... 45T's and such ... WAY out of place ... but then again, there isn't all that big a demand for subway cars, the number of people looking for genuine TA mighty diesels are likely to be counted on one hand. I don't think the TA ever owned *any* EMD locos.
It funny..I wanted to build a work train, and there weren't any of the diesels that looked like the NYCTA locos available in O-gauge, so I actually bought an SW-1500 and painted it yellow.
I guess I won't be needing the work train set. The crane car and tank car are readily aviable, and MTH plans to sell add-on sets, so I could probably get another R-21 to use a a work train.
I suppose MTH saves money by not investing in new toolings for limited-demand items. After all, as far as subway models go, they issued the R-42 twice (with and without the blue stripe) and are reycling their R-21 model as an R-17. (New snap-in storm door is the only new tooling.) Both the R-21 and R-17 models use the chasis, underbody detail, trucks, and drive train previously used in the R-42 models. (The R-42 was built to IRT-sized dimensions, and looks kind of funny on the same layout with the more detailed models).
MTH's R-32 model represents a big break with the past for MTH; all-new, highly detailed tooling. (At almost $500 for a 4-car set, it should). The R-36, part of their less-expensive "Railking" line, has to use some new tooling if they intend to have the correct windows and the blind "b" car end.
Actually, when MTH designed the tools (or I should say when their builder designed and built the tools) provision was made to allow for the blind ends and "picture windows" of the R-36's by using slips in the molds. Considering the investment MTH has made in this tooling, it was only natural for them to do this. Their good planning means more NYCTA subway cars for us in the future!
I wondered about that. I noticed from the photo that I saw that the passenger door windows were placed in "mainline" position, a la the R-21's. This would indicate that they used the same tooling at the R-21's. It is true that many R-36's look like that now, but only because they got new doors during their GOH.
I would imagine that the mold slips will allow them to build R-28/29/33/36 "mainline" married pair cars in the future (maybe with the post-GOH window frames).
I can hardly wait for the R-32 models to arrive...
A friend of mine gave Mike Wolfe pictures of the R-36s at York, PA. He'll be like a pig in S#!T if this actually comes to pass. Unfortunately, my yard only has 4 tracks with no room for expansion in that area. Looks like my new branch line will have a yard of its own. As for the work train, I've been toying with a K-Line S-2 as a possible basis for a NYCT GE loco.
I TRIED TO FIND THE PICTURES ON THE WEBSITE WITHOUT SUCCESS. ANY PARTICULAR LINK?
THANKS
Here's the link:
Click here
The MTH catalog is a special Train Show supplement--my local train shop just got a copy, but they had none to give away.
Subtalkers may have noticed that I have come up with two expressions as a result of my experiences and observations riding the LIRR since 1997. These expressions, and their definitions, are:
Suit-covered anuses (the most defining characteristic of LIRR commuters, especially on the Ronkonkoma line; the term also can be applied to the commuters themselves). I will note in passing that the attire of Ronkonkoma commuters shows that "business casual" is the biggest con job since Piltdown Man and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Cows at the slaughter-house chute half moons (the idiotic clusters of LIRR commuters on Penn Station platforms in the evening rush hour, located where the train doors will open, invariably followed by a mad rush for "prime" seats).
I now wish to announce, with great pride, the birth of a new expression: The Baby Elephant Walk !! Defining it requires a brief explanation of p.m. rush hour train loading practices at Penn Station. Because more people arrive at Penn from the Seventh Avenue side, the east (head) end of evening rush trains fill first. Late-arriving people entering that end of a train often find all seats occupied, and thereupon go traipsing through the train in search of seats (most of them, presumably, need seats because they're exhausted from long days at work drinking coffee, browing the Web, and occasionally shuffling a few papers to look busy). This mindless parade through the trains, usually taking place just before, and for a few minutes following, departure is known as (tah dah!) The Baby Elephant Walk!!!
I LIKE it! Congrats on another new saying.
Peace,
ANDEE
the biggest con job since Piltdown Man and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Let us be kind to suits from the Lawn Guy Land. We cast Jim Carrey in that role. Is la-Bess-mess still alive to be cast as his mother?
Oooooh. A reference to "the Protocols of the Elders of Zion" gives me a woody. Sing the phrase to a bit of Handel's The Messiah.
We know the mentioned frauds are frauds, but explain them to Saudi real estate agents shopping along Park Ave.
And what do you call that group who reserves seats for their cards game at the facing seats ?
How about the guy caring lots of stuff who puts it in the middle of a tripple & gives you a dirty look so you won't sit there ?
Mr rt__:^)
And what do you call that group who reserves seats for their cards game at the facing seats ?
Hmmmm ... gotta think of a good name for that one.
How about the guy caring lots of stuff who puts it in the middle of a tripple & gives you a dirty look so you won't sit there ?
Me?
LOL !
Mr rt__:^)
"most of them, presumably, need seats because they're exhausted from long days at work drinking coffee, browing the Web, and occasionally shuffling a few papers to look busy."
You have no idea what any particular individual you see on the train does at work. Or is the presumption that any job that doesn't involve lots of grease, running around, and/or lifting weights of at least 50 pounds is a lazy non-job?
"This mindless parade through the trains,"
So it's mindless to want to sit down for a trip that for some people is an hour or more? Or maybe it's mindless to think that, on a train that admittedly fills from one end first, there might be seats further back on the train? Personally, I HAVE on most trips found a seat by walking through the train looking for one.
"This mindless parade through the trains,"
[So it's mindless to want to sit down for a trip that for some people is an hour or more? Or maybe it's mindless to think that, on a train that admittedly fills from one end first, there might be seats further
back on the train? Personally, I HAVE on most trips found a seat by walking through the train looking for one.]
I think Peter was just making a observation vs. criticizing.
In my 11 years taking the LIRR the walking between the cars DID look like a "Elephant Walk" while you watched a whole bunch of folks doing it.
The cueing up where the doors would open was also interesting to watch
(you could spot the newbees who were standing inbetween the groups & laughed as they tryed to join the group as they saw where the doors opened). I knew were to stand on both ends of the line & usually got a seat to do some serious reading & sometimes to finish up a work assignment.
BTW, Peter, what do you call the snow day crowd when the trains are late at Penn Station ? Ever squeeze inbetween the cars to board ?
Mr rt__:^)
I e-mailed you a couple of times about a month ago. Did you get my e-mails? You never responded. Please let me know if you got them. Hope to hear from you.
Has anyone seen the 1985 TV movie "Stone Pillow", in which Lucille Ball plays the role of a New York City bag lady? For those of you who have seen it, and are familiar with all of New York City, can you tell me what part of Brooklyn that homeless shelter was in that Lucille rode the bus to with the other "homeless" women? It was also where she wandered into the abandoned tenement and fell asleep and dreamed of what I believe was once her family. That part of Brooklyn (if it was Brooklyn) was very run-down with a lot of abandoned buildings. If I remember correctly, at one point there was a split second scene of an elevated train going by in the distance. I've been wondering this for the longest time. I've seen the movie about 3 or 4 times since it first aired in 1985. Thanks for any help.
I have seen that movie, and I have tried to figure where that "run down area" was filmed at also. Sometimes I think it may even have been in a part of the Bronx and they called it Brooklyn. It's very hard to figure out where now, because it was filmed 18 years ago and that area may look totally different now. It would be interesting to find out where it was filmed, maybe someone here knows.
A few months ago my school was suppose to go back downtown for orientation. No one told me they'ed foun abspestos in the school. So now we gave to go back to Norman Thomas with no lunch period from 2:42 to 6:30(for those who cares). So as I left for home(after seeing the site)I thought about what was and what can be. When I got home I found a July 2001 subway map and I just brainstormed. I did research and I finally made breakthroughs. I currently got 3 subway lines and 2 railroads into lower manhatthan.
LIRR:Abandoning Flatbush Avenue(or Norstrand) and making a real remodeling of Atlantic Avenue the LIRR can be extended to a point with the Path yet far away enough so if there's another attack(honestly I doubt the other one will be with planes)there won't be significant damage.
SIR:Remodeling St George 2 tracks from the SIR can go into the World Trade Center again far enough so significant damage can occur.
6:Using the City hall loop as a bunker (and If another attack does occur a loop once more) and extending the tracks through the storage tracks prior to Fulton street, where the 6 can go just about where the A and C is(I would like if it can be visible clearly via the E platform).
2 Avenue line:A 2 avenue express(or local train)can tail off from Houston Street zig-zagging through China town to a pount under the A or 1 platform(I belive the 1 since there isn't anymore room on the edge of Ground Zero) and going through to Battery Park city.
Z or J:Tailing off from Chambers street the Z or J(I think the J would me more usefull)can go to a point under the World Trade center(On the same side as the North Tower).
If anyone has any new Ideas please e-mail me and I would greatle appreciate responces.
Well this project was a waste of time and valuable thread space!
The problems are as follows (listen in no specific order):
Money
Money
Time
Money
Most of your proposals have been mentioned on Subtalk in the past; search and ye shall find.
Running a tunnel from St George to WTC would probably be the most costly.
Anything involving the second avnue line is going to take (realistically) at least another 10 years.
Extending the LIRR to meet with PATH is a good idea IMHO, but why extend it through Atlantic Avenue? That means having to build another tunnel from Brooklyn to Manhattan. It might make more sense to run a few tracks down from Penn Station to lower Manhattan.
I'm not sure if I understand the logic behind extending the 6 or the J/Z trains. A bunker near City Hall is (in my opinion) useless since the mayor doesn't spend the majority of his time there. And the J and Z stations are within walking distance to the WTC, so I don't think rerouting them is necesary.
From 1967 to 1971 I rode the A train from Dyckman to 59 and frequently on the express section between 125 and 59 the train would seem to violently bounce from side to side with accompanying noises. What may have caused this?
Jim Fish
Rutted wheel surfaces ... often called "cupped" where the rails have eroded the surface over time. The R-10's also had a tendency for the brakes to stick and wheels to slide and that would result in flats causing "knock-knock-knock" while rolling. When this got out of hand, off to the wheel truing shop where available but the "cupping" phenom didn't tend to go to the wheel shop unless it was very serious in those days. Happened to the R1/9's as well though it seemed more pronounced on the 10's ...
Thanks
Not many are still witnesses to (drum roll please) "deferred maintenance" ... such things don't happen these days but if the budget is as bad as it seems right now for this year and those to follow, we might just see that all again ... get to know your rail and wheel defects, birls and goys. :)
Selkirk, The plural of Goy is goyim, not goys.
Yer honor ... PLEASE don't suspend my poetic license ... I promise to stop for every semicolon from now on. :)
Let's hope it doesn't come to that... the rolling stock may not live as long...
Well, for what it's worth Paturkey is up for re-election this year and he firmly believes the Shrub will cough up the dough for 911 ... eventually ... even if he DIDN'T put it in his budget. A lot of faith, even Sister Cleo can't determine the outcome. But if they're shy of bucks, the first thing that gets cut is often maintenance ... we'll see.
Selkirk, it seems to me that the wheel wear condition you descride is referred to as Tread Worn Hollow.
Yep ... that's correct ... I've also heard it referred to as "cupping" as well (not to be confused with "rail cupping") or at least that's what they called it at Coney shops years ago. When stuck between rush hours at the wrong end of the system, waiting for my "other shift" to start, I'd often hang out there and watch and kibbitz. That's where I picked up the useless knowledge (or what I'd like to assume might pass for some) ...
I've been on Metro-North trains on occasion where you heard the "knock-knock-knock" sound from a wheel with a flat spot. If it is pronounced enough you can feel it.
#3 West End Jeff
Yep ... a bit too much sliding'll do that after a short while. And for every flat wheel, there's a gouge out on the rails somewhere.
I'm sure that there are plenty of gouged rails in places out there. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the gouges contribute to derailments.
#3 West End Jeff
You'll be relieved to know that gouges on the rails make for a slightly rougher ride in spots or a slight side to side jerk, but derailments are still primarily caused by excessive speed on curves, BROKEN rails and broken switch points ... and of course gremlins who aren't wearing their safety vest. :)
I'd certain rather have a side to side jerk than a derailment.
#3 West End Jeff
Depends on the jerk I guess ... with some of the ones I ran into over the years, I'd go for the derailment. :)
Unfortunately as you're well aware you won't go any further after the train derails.
#3 West End Jeff
Better phobias are eserved here ... derails are DAMNED rare and are caused by anything BUT a few scraped rails. Over time though, those scrapes can assist metal fatigue in causing a BROKEN rail, but when that happens, you usually encounter an automatic that won't clear or if it happens in JUST the right place, the stubborn homeball. There's better things to worry about, like dragon clips. :)
What does it mean when a train's wheels "skip" the track?
I read this from a newspaper online about a year ago when a B train derailed at DeKalb Av. (i think).
I thought "skipping the track" (or "jumping the track") meant the same thing as derailing.
Mark
OK. So do you (or anyone else) know why it skipped?
"Skip the track" is a new one on me ... sounds like something a clueless intern news reporter would concoct. You're either ON the rail or you're off it. I have NO facts about what happened at DeKalb, but I think I recall it being attributed to a wheel "splitting the switch" mysteriously. One axle went, the other didn't ... probably a broken switchpoint or the switch "moved" ... but "skipping?" Dunno what that's supposed to mean ...
The trackbeds and rails with their frequent "red flag" conditions were to blame for many shaky rides. Continuous Weld Rail wasn't started until the late '80s when Capital Improvement Money started flowing in to replace old track. One example of this old ride can still be found on the express ride from Utica Avenue to Franklin Avenue, including the clickety clacks and the shake, rattle and roll.
Heh. Back in 70-71 when I'd deadhead TO and back from Coney at oh dark hundred, we'd often get sent up the local track tooting our way to and fro in the dead of night. Back then, the express rails on CPW were constantly having sections replaced. It was actually WELL taken care of, particularly the northbound ...
I think TD has mentioned (might have been someone else with the show) that CPW rail replacement numbers were INSANE and eventually the speed was cut back from former glory owing to track wear. Of course, those ratty WHEELS were never rectified back then - between the cupped wheels and the flats, those rails got beat to hell ... I wonder if Utica to Franklin didn't suffer the same ... and you know what results when track wear's a problem. Slow orders. :)
I think TD has mentioned (might have been someone else with the show) that CPW rail replacement numbers were INSANE and eventually the speed was cut back from former glory owing to track wear.
I thought this was due to an accident on the 'A' back in the '90s?
Dunno ... that might have been yet another factor but I do recall mention being made that some study group determined that the pounding on CPW was causing excessive rail replacement expense when trains weren't hitting the steel ...
Ah, the memories....I rode the "D" a lot on the old R-1/R-9 series -- same thing on that stretch all the time.
They were SMOOTH though on there ... the R10's would put you on the floor for given track conditions. The R1/9's *knew* how to dance properly. Dunno what it was about the 10's, but their wheels "rutted out" faster than the older stock. :)
Sinmple answer why the R10's wheels wore out faster....
"They don't make 'em like they used to!"
Hehehhe, people say that nowadays -- hey, us old farts even said it in the 50's!
Heh. There WAS something different about the wheels on those, compared to other cars ... some difference in the alloy, possibly also they were a slightly different diameter too ... but I don't remember the details ... they WERE slightly different from the R1/9 wheels somehow though ...
In Philly, on the Market-Frankford El, if you sit in the very back seat (so you look out the back railfan window) you really feel a wobbling, like the train is jumping up and down, just east of 63rd Street on the Eastbound track. as you look back out the back window, you can see a bunch of pit-marks in the rail. is that pretty much the same thing as mentioned earlier in the post?
I will be holding an Other Side of The Tracks ( Click here to visit the other side of the tracks ) field trip TOMORROW Sunday, Feburary 10th.
Meeting Place: Jay St. (Brooklyn Bound Platform- First Car)
Time: 12 Noon (No expections!)
Itinerary: R38 A train to Far Rockaway. Same train back to Bway-Nassau to Catch a redbird 4 or 5 train to its respective terminus in the Bronx. Multiple photo stops will be made whenever those who attend want to take pictures.
If you have question send me an e-mail: hbeck@nycrail.com
Thanks
-Harry
Wish I was there, bro ... you surprised me ... turned out to be a real party animal once we got out of the way between your lens and what you wanted to bag. Heh. Enjoy da ride ... see if you can break into a cab ... Selkirk grants you special dispensation. Harry WHO?! Never heard of him. :)
Not this Harry. The subways don't run on weekends.
Heh. The other Harry's spent some cab time. He knows what to pull and when. :)
Time: 12 Noon (No expections!)
Expections??
WHAT!?
Come Again?
My bad- exceptions
Pregnant women not allowed.
And no expectorations, either.
And no expectorations, either.
Dave: I like that one. Will we allowed to masticate?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Only if you wear a raincoat. :)
Looks like the rain will hold off until the evening, so the Rockaway line photos should look good.
I will probably be joining you all tomorrow for the A train ride and the IRT ride up though I'll probably bail at 42nd street.
Well I'm not feeling too well today, I have this perpetual cold so I couldn't make the trip. Well hopefully you all have (A) great time. Good luck getting an R38 on a Sunday though, usually R44's are run on the A during weekends.
Yeah, if an R38 to Far Rockaway didn't show up at Jay St. for awhile, the trip got off to a late start.
There were many R38's. We counted at least 7 sets on the A
As of this writing, There is A 10 CAR TRAIN of R 62As now at Corona Yard. Get your cameras ready. Its only a TEST TRAIN. This train is from the 3 & 6 lines. 5 singles and a 5 car set. Long live the REDBIRDS.
sorry folks I made a boo boo its A 10 car train of R 62As at Corona.
The R-62A will perform wonderfully, its problems were taken out in the 80's when the original testing was being done. So everyone should get ready to say hi to the R-62A being on the 7 and the Redbirds going to a museum or to the scrap yard.
What were the numbers on those R62A? It is about time that something other than a RedBird has made an appearance at Corona. I think what will happen is that both the R33 and R62A will undergo passenger service testing at the same time. If they both pass, then that's what you will see at Corona Yard. If 1 fails, then we'll either have an all Redbird fleet until modifications are made or an all R62A fleet. Only time will tell.
BTW The R33ML set with 8918 is still at Corona. It must have passed its testing.
Honestly, I'd like to see a mixed fleet of RedBirds and R62A's just like the 4 and 5 have now. It'd be out with the old and in with the new in a way.
#8918 Flushing Local
#2155 Flushing Express
There should not be a mixed Redbird fleet. 'Amerikan' long range artillery is fixed north and the Canadians are sending their 'Vichy French Heavy Hitters' down to us to fixemup. The number 2 line has been revised: 360 R142s and 70 Redbirds(reserve.) 2 Line requires 310 cars (64 trainsets) in operation and 10 cars (2 trainsets) in inspection everyday leaving four ten car trainsets in operational reserve. Situation is cutting the numbers too close and Bombas sucking wind for an additonal order. #5 is test running R142s since Monday to sink the Redbirds. Kawasaki has good chance for contract extensions if they can get their act together. Kaw has braking problems too...GO requires 30 day tread brake shoe replacements. CI Peter
Now what do they do with the need for double-tripcocks on R62A's for hospital runs to Coney Island ? I supposed an R33S could run in multiple with them until they equip them.
any ideas when they enter Revenue service?
I guess then we may know which direction that high-level metting went in with R62A's at Corona.
It makes sense. Why would you send ML R33's to Corona when it was only a matter of time when the R62A's would arrive.
As of Monday morning, famous CI Chinese Doctor Lee will be there to to fixemup trainsets. Also fixes back problems, incontinence and lack of erection. We will miss him greatly. CI Peter
Not the first time a test train has been there. Anybody remember the transit museum's postcard with an R62 train set against the Queensborough Bridge?
I suppose the 11th car will be 2155 which has been sitting in the barn for training purposes for several months.
....in numerical order: 1701/02/03/04/05, 2145, 2148, 2150, 2451, 2454 and of course 2155 which has been at Corona for awhile. Several months ago, I was told that the 5 car unit will be on the Times Sq. end and the 6 singles will be on the Main St. end. This very well may be the case judging by the selection of the first 11 cars sent out there.
2451 and 2454 should read 2151 and 2154. My bad!
Are any of the R-62s in service yet on the Corona-Flushing yard?
#3 West End Jeff
Oops!, correction. I meant Corona-Flushing line.
#3 West End Jeff
"West End Jeff" also meant R-62As, not R-62s.
David
Aka the 7.:-)
No, They are not in service at this time. They have to go through all sorts of tests. Then it should go into revenue service. The train arrived on Friday night. At approx 10:20 PM.
When do you think that the R-62As will enter service on the #7 Corona-Flushing Line?
#3 West End Jeff
Keeping the singles on the Main St. end? At least they're keeping with tradition. Or tradition has nothing to do with it and this is the only way for tranverse c/r cabs to line up with the regular board as opposed to the 'alternate' board.
Interesting, 1701 and family were quite recently (last weekend) running on the Dyre Shuttle.
So this means railfan windows to Flushing, and transverse cabs to Times Square?
Well, someone's gonna be at least partially happy -- no Manhattan skyline shots except coming into 45th Road-Court Square, but there will still be some pictures of Shea to take out the front window :-)
The E/B run on the 7 express is better than the W/B one. It is faster and the view to the east is relatively unblocked by buildings after Woodside.
But remeber that you can bust the door open on the times sq end. when it is going to main st.
SubTalkers and TA employees who are not part of the train crew are not allowed into unoccupied cabs. If you bust the door open, you are creating vandalism to the train.
what if you get a invite from a motorman ?
Nope, the R62A doors are actually pretty sturdy!
A few years ago I was very skilled at opening the locks on R-62/a doors with a screwdriver... The only time I ever did it was on a 1 or 5 going around the SF loop. Actually, it's easy to open any train locks and scroll rollsigns with a screwdriver. Redbird cab locks are the easiest, I've opened them with a 3x5 index card!
But those skills has gone unused (for the most part) for over two years.
Perhaps the TA should hire me as a primary consultant for lock testing. I'd love to take a shot at the 142/a/143s!
Me and a person that will go unnamed messed with R32 Q rollsigns with keys. You don't need an index card, just a good stiff shoulder!
the sooner a photo is posted up, the better the celebration will be!!
--jonathan c
You got that right! I wonder, will they do tests at Corona yard or will they do passenger testing?
i hope they can try passenger testing. This gives the TA a better idea what things will look like when the R62A's come into regular service. Tests at the yard can do so much up to a certain limit.
--jonathan c
the R 62s without a railfan window ?
It's better than nothing at all. I'll take the view out of an R62's tiny eye-level window over this any day:
Me too!!! Although, it would be interesting to see Montreal metros running on the 7 :-) Hey, the metro trains are very close if not exactly to IRT dimensions, just lose the rubber tires and there you go!!
Nah, I think if CI Peter sees any more Bombardier hulks, he'll go totally pesto ...
I can just imagine the female computer voice on the Montreal metro right now...
"Prochaine station, Place du Temps" ("Next station: Times Square")
"Prochaine station, Rue Principale, Flessingue" ("Next station: Main Street, Flushing")
Heh.
now that picture is really ugly !!
It makes you wonder if they put advertising on the outside of the car as well.
They have in the past... one train was painted all silver with some ad for jeans. Another was painted all white with cartoons of cows all over it advertising milk. It was pretty horrible.
CANT WE AT LEAST PAINT THE CARS RED????
no just kiss the railfan window..........GOODBYE !
My crow bar won't.
yes!!!
can i help U with dis'...???
I always see them in stations. They are fastened near the tracks, and have even numbers like 4, 6, 8, or 10. What do they mean?
I am soooooooo old. The enameled metal tablets referred to the days when trainsets were shorter or cars were independent. They told the T/O where to stop in order to place the trainset in the center of the platform. CI Peter
On the 7th Avenue (IRT) line, those stop signs have all integers from 4 to 10.
"I am soooooooo old."
You don't have to be old to see different length trains on the same track.
- Queens Blvd has 300' Gs and 600' everything else.
- 8th Ave has 600' Es and 480' Cs.
- 4th Ave Brooklyn has 480' Ms and 600' everything else.
Maybe I'm old too but I don't think it's that long ago that weekend Cs were even shorter than 480'. I remember not too many years ago coming down the stairway from the L to the uptown A/C/E at 14th Street and seeing a stopped C a totally unreachable distance away. Must've been 360' long at most.
Some of those numbers ar not set right. I remember when they used to run half trains on the M during middays, and at some of the stations the train went way to one end of the platform, while the stairs to the station were way on the other end and you had passengers running a half pf train length to get the train. I guess they were set for when some now closed stairs were still there, but have since been removed. A lot of those number signs need to be rechecked to see if they are in the right spots.
The numbered stop markers are there to ensure that all of the train is in the station when stopping (for variously-sized trains). The idea is that the conductor's position will line up with the striped board above the platform. Normally this means that trains of various lengths will wind up centered around a conductor's board. If there is some reason the head car should always stop at the front of the station (for example, a signal showing a possible diverging route) there may be a single "S" stop marker for all lengths of trains.
Having the train stop further back when running shorter lengths thus involves moving more than the stop markers - you have the conductor's board(s), possible route punch boxes, the "off-hours trains stop here" yellow signage/cameras, and so forth.
My casual observation shows that the single "S" markers are being used a lot more (often in conjunction with "OPTO S" ones at stations where OPTO is planned or already in use).
I can remember 4 car AA Eighth Avenue Locals . . . boy am I dated!
HERE
Hey Bob, I was there last weekend waiting for an Oyster Bay train. Did you notice where that old dilapidated overpass by Tracks 6,7 & 8 ?
Not only was the original canopy and columns removed, but also a section of original platform by these tracks. I haven't seen how this turned out, so I assume those pre-fab panels on the flat cars were either temporary or permanent platforms. It was quite a sight to see as I viewed this from the overpass.
Also did you get a gander at those new peaked canopies they already installed ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Also did you get a gander at those new peaked canopies they already installed ?
They've got to be temporary since they're attached to the old posts.
>>They've got to be temporary since they're attached to the old posts<<
I certainly hope so, those columns are worse for wear. They don't even look decent and the canopy doesn't even match. I riding in tomorrow and will check things out.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeesh, I go to school within walking distance of this place and haven't been there in months. They seem to be getting a lot done with the destruction portion of the work.
The last time I was there was around New Years and they hadn't even begun the demolition work yet. I can's believe what they got done already.
Fred: It occurs to me that some sparks might fly when the Brighton Beach Boys meet the Sea Beach Seven. The last thing we need in Brookyln is a range war with the poor little Culver Line caught in-between. Maybe you guys should meet on some neutral territory, like The Bronx. Selkirk and me can arrange protection.
Larry, Don RedbirdR33
I'm one of those poor little Culver guys caught in-between.
I'm throwing in with the Sea Beach Seven.
R-16: Welcome aboard. There's nothing like power in numbers. Don't worry, though. We through a few tough looks at those Brighton guys and they'll become pussy cats. Besides we are really good buddies. We just like to give each other a hard time.
If you know what's good for ya, you'll tie in with the West Enders ... even the Culver wouldn't touch da SeaBits. :)
The SeaBits gang lived around West 7th Street. I lived on West 4th, halfway between the Culver and Sea Beach.
Gotta know the territory, man.
How did you get up to seven for the Sea Beach? I only counted two.
Bob: There are five that I know of. How many Sea Beachers are just undercover waiting for Sea Beach Fred to show up? Probably a mine full.
Fred: Now is the time for all good Sea Beach men to be counted. Right now we have you and R-16. Remember what happened to the Lone Ranger. One day the Lone Ranger and Tonto were surrounded by about 3000 very mad Indians. The Lone Ranger turned to Tonto and said,"Well Tonto old friend this looks like we've come to the end of the road." Tonto replied "What do you mean 'we' white man."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sounds like Larry is ready for Fred to be the Lone Ranger, while Larry will be Tonto!
Sssh' Karl. Don't tell Fred. I plan on hepling him like more indians would have helped Custer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You forgot N Train and Sea Beach 53. I think they can be counted on.
Fred: That now makes for. You need to get three more recruits.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How did you get up to seven for the Sea Beach? I only counted two.
Lew: I counted the five homeless shacks along the Sea Ditcg ROW and multiplied by one each.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Neutral territory? The Bronx? Since when is that neutral territory for me? Good Lord Larry, I have to get Stef and Selkirk to provide safe haven when I come to that oasis. Just in case your memory is short, I said a few things a while back that was construed as anti-Bronx and I caught it from all sides. There are still a few natives restless up there. I can tell you that the Brighton and Sea Beach boys will have their share of words in Brooklyn but it will never get out of hand. When he head into the Bronx we will unite as one because a few of those guys are a little worried about what we'll find on the mainland.
Fred will sleep thru the Bx like last Aug
He'll have to go in cognito.:-)
I may dig out my Subway Series shirt with the R-10 on it. Not that the R-10s had anything to do the Subway Series. Or very little, anyway.
Fred: Did I ever tell you that I used to work as a guide at the Bronx Zoo? I know a good back entrance to the Lion House where you can see lions and tigers up real close. If you come up to The Bronx I will show it to you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Animals would reject Fred, too old
Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
I'm surrounded by a wide host of friends, a plethora of comrades. Now I know how Custer felt.
You can say that again Kimosabe.
Larry,RedbirdR33
We need to recruit Heypaul for our excursion.:-)
That's one EXPENSIVE Brighton boy to hire up. :)
Yeah, especially if he brings along his infamous gas grill.
Word is the gas grill is a hoax. It's actually an ELECTRIC grill that runs off either 600 DC or ion plasma.
Awwwww man!
See? But the plasma grill is *KEWL* ... purple haze all around the damned thing too ... Jimmy Hendrix woulda been proud. :)
Don't give Heypaul any ideas.:-)
Too late ... he's already ripped a hole in the time space continuum ... :)
Oooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
The good news is that in the parallel dimension, the SeaBits runs completely underwater as a full time express. :)
It's probably not very fast, then.:-)
Nah, he's still working out a few fluid dynamics issues and carbody drag as a result ... but it still runs faster underwater than it does in the ditch. :)
This I've got to see.:-)
I wonder what happened to heypaul. I would love to have him show up but we can't even get him on Subtalk. If any one of your guys out there know what gives with heypaul, let me know. I miss his posts.
He can be found elsewhere ... smoke signals on Harry's place might cause an apparition. :)
>>Fred: It occurs to me that some sparks might fly when the Brighton Beach Boys meet the Sea Beach Seven.<<
As far as the Brighton Beach Boys are concerned, our numbers may overwhelm the Sea Beach Seven. Not only will will you be outnumbered, but you will risk being outclassed. Newkirk, #1 Brighton Exp Bob, Doug BMTman, Q Brightliner etc, etc are prime examples.
You have been warned !!
Bill "Newkirk"
DARE NOT UNDERESTIMATE SEA BEACH FRED!!! -- ***YOU***,MY FRIEND, HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!
FEAR THE SEA BEACH GANG!!!
Feh ... a bag of cuchifritos says "you're on" ... moo. :)
>>Feh ... a bag of cuchifritos says "you're on" ... moo. :)<<
Ah yes, some refreshing words from the mainland.........DA BRONKS !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Brighton Line Rules !
The route of the true southern div BMT Express
Brighton Line Rules !
The route of the true southern div BMT Express
... and let's not forget, when the bridge is back, the jet to da Bronx ...
>>... and let's not forget, when the bridge is back, the jet to da Bronx ...<<
Oy vey, don't remind me. WAIT ! after the flip we'll run the (D) down the Sea Beach and kill the (N) altogether !!
Brainstormin' man !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
The N is nowhere, they should have still combined it with the M, then it was a interesting ride,
Only shows the value of the Brighton line ... big stuff up in da Bronx (or at least was) ... Train Dude train ... now tell me you want to see the mighty flyers riding in the ditch. :)
Train Dude's a Brighton man, too.
Yep ... that's why I cut the boy MUCHO slack ... heh. The Brighton is the #1 BMT line. 'nuff said. :)
I overlook that Train Dude is a Brighton Man because he doesn't deal in bullshit. He's straight to the point and isn't afraid to let you know where he's coming from. A couple of times he gave me the what for and I knew afterwards I had it coming. But the Dude is a class guy and he is one guy I want to have a drink with----soft one for me since I am a wuss when it comes to liquor.
Can you handle O'Douls? If not we's got a serious problem wit ya...
BMTman
Oh hell, what's one drink. For you guys an O'Doul on tap is ok. But if you try and give me more all of you will have a problem getting me to the head to heave and piss. I have a very low tolerance for booz.
You'll be relieved (ack!) to know that O'Doul's is "non-alcoholic" (ahem) "beer" ... they're playing with ya, buddy. No whizzing on the third rail unless you really wanna ...
But he can put away the $1.98 Gallo Cainti
Steve knows his stuff inside and out, and I respect him for that. He was kind enough to set me straight and explain how trainline door control circuits worked on SMEE cars and why they were all compatible with one another, even the R-10s with their pneumatic door engines.
Way to go, Fred, reveal your weaknesses to the enemy....Oooh!!! :)
Sshhhhhh!!! I'm actually trying to lull them into a sense of false security and then I will turn on them like a viper.
You ARE aware that the vindshield vipers were manually operated? One hand could barely wipe your brow ... with the other hand, you could crush a truck. Oh, nevermind ... :)
I'll turn on them too. Maybe if I open my mouth and if one of them should be lucky enough to see what my palate looks likes they'll know not to mess with me. It looks pretty ugly to say the least. The next to ugliest things to look at are the rotting "Redbirds". I've saw a few rusty ones on the fantrip that I was on with "Thurston" and a few of the others.
#3 West End Jeff
Just keep talking like that and you will meet up with an unexplained accident.
Bill: Its too bad they didn't name it the South Beach Line. Then we could call it the S.O.B.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One day, you're gonna wake up and find the Brighton line filled with more graffiti than the Sea Beach...
Bill, tell me what you've been smoking and get some for Bob. He needs it and you need more of it.
>>Bill, tell me what you've been smoking and get some for Bob. He needs it and you need more of it.<<
I don't smoke Fred, maybe it's this Manhattan Bridge flip and the reuniting of the Brighton Express wth the BMT Broadway subway.
Bill "Newkirk"
The D and B were sent to the Bronx where they belong. Let's hope the TA does something smart and keeps them there. They don't belong in Brooklyn and never did. Brooklyn is BMT country.
Brooklyn is BMT country.
Horsehockey' How do you explain the Contract II Brooklyn and Manhattan Rapid Transit Railroad, not to mention the Contract III Eastern Parkway,Clark Street, Livonia Avenue and Nostrand Avenue Lines?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Clark, Livonia, Nostrand? Strictly minor league and small potatoes. Brooklyites didn't take the IRT unless they were desperate. The IRT was king in the Bronx, not Brooklyn.
[The route of the true southern div BMT Express]
You got that right, Bill!
BMTman
Next thing you know, The Warriors will show up.
Funny you should mention that ... "The Warriors" was shot around Fordham and Jerome ... Kingsbridge, and 204th and Webster (park and bridge scenes) and that's where I *lived* ... oh yeah, Fred dragged off there and to Van Cortland Park after dark. Woohoo! :)
But most of the subway scenes were done on IND/BMT lines using mainly R-27/30s. I think they may have intentionally varied the train markings so no one would recognize any actual subway routes.
Notice where the picture ends, don't know? Brooklyn's Coney Island, home of the Cyclones, the Cyclone and the Sea Beach. Wouldn't surprise me any if they changed trains in Manhattan and took the Sea Beach to safe haven. There is no safer or cleaner train than mine.
>>Wouldn't surprise me any if they changed trains in Manhattan and took the Sea Beach to safe haven<<
If they took the Slow Beach the film would have been in two parts !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Ha Ha Ha. Newkirk you're real funny. But remember looks aren't everything. By the way, are you coming to the city for out big October bash? You better.
>>By the way, are you coming to the city for out big October bash?<<
Is there a date planned ? I gotta tell the Brighton Boys.
Can't ride your Sea Beach to Stillwell, the (N) was evicted for the next four years. Let's take the (Q) instead, heh !
Bil "Newkirk"
Looks as if the only train going all the way to Stillwell will be the (fill in the blank) W train.
Mark your calendar for Sunday, Oct. 13. I'm even going to fly in on Saturday so as not to miss this rare opportunity to see the Bob and Fred Show live and in color.:-)
My plan is to fly in Thursday to set things up. I also want to do a little exploring in the Bronx if I can get my "buddies" up there to provide me fair haven and backup.
Maybe even Monday for 2 days
Hey, I'm game.
Bill, well said, well said.
I have to agree, there is no safer or cleaner train than the beloved N...
Remember the woman with three kids eating crabs on the Brighton line???
Anyway, I make it my duty to pick up newspapers from the seats if someone leaves them...occasionally, I remind the person to take it...and occasionally, I even kick the garbage off the train (just in case someone from the Straphangers Campaign is collecting data)....
So there you go, that's how much I love the N & Sea Beach...can anyone reciprocate?
Sea Beach is a force of nature...the sea's control the moon, the sea is the reason why the sky is blue, because of the reflection from the water...
The closest thing you get with Brighton is the sun.
The sun is usually eclipsed by the moon, controlled by Sea Beach.
There you go.
Sign this boy up. Did you guys here that out there? I take it you can read, at least a little. Great job Sea Beach 53, you're a gentleman and a scholar.
>>Great job Sea Beach 53, you're a gentleman and a scholar.<<
A gentleman and a scholar is one thing, but is he a Brooklyn Dodger fan ?
Bill "Newkirk"
So much hot air.....spare me the lame attempts at poetry...
Aw, come on Doug. Where's your sense of humor. I think this bantering is a lot of fun, and, besides, I'm taking all those jabs at my Sea Beach with a smile. What;s wrong with a little poetry?
The Moon Controls the Sea, not the Sea Controls the Moon
By the way folks, it's a full moon, denoting the Chinese New Year...great view from Sea Beach...
Sorry to burst your bubble, but in one scene you can see a "QB-Local via Bridge" side route sign in one of the cars. Not that it mattered, what with none of the train markings making any sense.
>>Next thing you know, The Warriors will show up.<<
Uh Steve......we are the Warriors !!
We're a little bit older now.
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh. Well in that case, we'll need to have someone say, "Oh Warriors, come out and pla-ayyy."
What me worry, says Selkirk. The fact is you will be enconsed in your adobe hacienda up in the sticks and will be loathe to leave for civilization. Don't get stunk by those flying insects up there. I hear it's hell in the summer with all that sticky and sickly humidity. Oh well, there's always the recreation of standing by a mirror watching your teeth decay.
Ooooweee! Well, say what you will about upstate, at least when the earth moves up here, it's because it was a REALLY good date. :)
I'll see your P train, raise you a Q and reserved seating on a mighty D for ya ... yeah ... a little touchup. A little touchup for y'all. Heh.
I still say Selkirk that you will AWOL when we get to New York. Of course, I would love to lose that bet. Thin it over.
Make me an offer. Heh. Seriously, seeing you in the Bronx just might be worth the trip. Only thing is making plans this many months ahead of time is nearly impossible, but within two weeks of the "event" I should know whether or not I can do it ... I laid out my "appearance" requisites in a previous message ... I know you'll do da right thing. :)
I can see it now. Brighton/Sea Beach shouting matches, "Mmmmmmooooooooooo" and "Neener-neener" chants - we'll get thrown out for sure.
Nah ... I can perform the covetted "Psshhhh-ssssssssssss" ... I can travel anywhere in the system and be handed the disco vest. :)
And as we all know, the Sea beech goes "poing-poing-poing-poing-poing -poing" while the Brighton goes "woosh" ... bustini, bustini ...
FWIW, I can do R-1/9 bull and pinion gear sounds with the best of them. And in the 14th St. tunnel, I can approximate the BMT standards laboring uphill.
SHOWOFF! ("Look! I've got an erector set!") :)
I've got the perfect gift you should get your friends----a shovel and a violin. They'd make beautiful music while you seranade them with the variety of manure you keep dishing out. Have a good one friend.
Nah, we're up to date upstate. Since there's plenty of free parking (with validation) in these economic times, nothing short of a frontloader will do. And of course a Yamaha MIDI box and speakers all over the lawn. Makes it easier to serenade the neighbors with R9 sounds. :)
Don't forget the subwoofer.:-)
I have one of those, too.:-) One of the last ones made by Gilbert before they went belly-up.
One person is hardly a gang.
Q, you've been playing Rip Van too long. Wake up from your stuper. Have you forgotten Sea Beach 53, N Train, and N Broadway Line. There just a few of us, and I can count of West End Jeff joining forces with me if I need him. And I'd venture to say there are a few more out there I haven't mentioned.
Fred, 2 of the 3 guys you mentioned are Astoria Line, not Slow Beach riders. And as I recall you don't want your line associated with Astoria. Okay, okay, so there are two of you. That's still not a gang.
Fred alone is a Gang
You can't mess wit the Brighton Boyz. Why you's don't know I gots me some help from a couple of Dons.
Ok, so it's Don knotts 'n Don Pardo... but STILL it's a couple of Dons.
They'll make you's an offer ya can't refuse...mark my words...
Some empanadas, pastelillos and some meat patties oughta tighten him right up. Grow chest on his hair. :)
Fred rarely eats meat
Dang! Does this mean we can't make a pitstop at that fine French restaurant, "Nay-deeks" for a roof rabbit sammich? Bummer. After all, vegetables have feelings too and you can hear them scream with an ultrasonic-to-audio frequency downconverter ...
Fred's gonna have to deal with it - I'm a card carrying upstate member of PeTA ... "People Eating Tasty Animals" ...
Seafood baby, seafood. I love it and can eat eat twice a day seven times a week. I have it with rice, spaghetti, vegetables, anything. You can take your steak, chops, lamp and pork and shove it up you know what. Yuk, it doesn't even taste good anymore.
Now now ... let's not get into another food fight like the last time we discussed subway mystery food ... I'll end up telling ya what fish eat. :)
I'd rather not know about the subway mystery food.
#3 West End Jeff
Me neither :-D
Hee-haw, hee-haw!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Maybe the mystery food is good rat fare.
#3 West End Jeff
Mebbe....but still I dun't wanna know, Jeff...let's just say I've got a queasy stomach when it comes to SUPER gross stuff...like seeing a RAT the size of a CAT on Fulton Street-Lex. Avenue Line N.B Plat. a few weeks ago (yes it IS true).
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm never surprised about the stories of CAT sized RATS in New York City. New York City probably has some of the biggest rats in the world.
#3 West End Jeff
And what's funny is that if the TA brought CATS into the system to HUNT and DEESTROY 'em RATS, the CATS would be afraid of the RATS!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Maybe they should try using bobcats instead of domestic cats.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm a card carrying upstate member of PeTA ... "People Eating Tasty Animals" ...
Reminds me of a comment made by a good friend of mine back in North Carolina, Craig Zeni (who is also a railfan, HO scale modeler and dispatcher, and New Haven fan - the last of which I'll forgive), that was published in a letter to the editor a couple of years back in response to a round of PETA foolishness... hope I remember word for word, if not at least I've got the essence of it... "If God didn't intend for us to eat animals, why did He make them out of meat?"
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One of MANY imponderables ...
1) If you throw a cat out a car window, does it become kitty litter?
2) If corn oil comes from corn, where does baby oil come from?
3) When a cow laughs, does milk come out of her nose?
4) How do they get a deer to cross at that yellow road sign?
5) If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
6) Does "virgin wool" come from sheep the shepherd hasn't caught yet?
7) Do radioactive cats have 18 half-lives?
8) When it rains, why don't sheep shrink?
9) Should vegetarians eat animal crackers?
10) Do hungry crows have ravenous appetites?
Inquiring mimes knead to no ...
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
OINK to you, mister ... after all, if we can pack 'em all in, then it's an F train. :)
As long as Ralph isn't in the same car.:-) Ask Wayne about what happened on 9-11-73 on a crush loaded prewar F train headed by 1277. You had to be there.
Hot Lunch is often served in the dining car ... I'll leave it there. Even worse when it happens in the lead car. Everybody on board disappears, guess who has to stay and savor the aroma?
Selkirk: This is beautiful. Have you ever labored under a misaprehension. There's no room to stand up.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I *live* that way. And man is my back hurtin' ...
You Forgot Donal Duck
You tell them John buddy. I remember all things and forget nothing. Those Brighton characters are walking a tight rope and they better watch their P's and Q's.
Don't forget about me #3 West End Jeff. With my hood I look like a greater threat than I would be. Also, don't look at the roof of my mouth if you're squeamish. You'll see where I have a cleft palate though it is otherwise concealed. There is no hole, but a deep lineal depression in the roof of my mouth that looks like the cut for the Sea Beach Line. However, it is much to small to run a train of subway cars through it. With my hood, I'll look like a weirdo while I'm standing in the railfan window of a Slant R-40 that might even be traveling the Sea Beach Line. Some of you will know when you see me I'll be easily recognized. Maybe if #4 Sea Beach Fred is lucky, maybe they'll start to run the Sea Beach Line train over the Manhattan Bridge in 2004 and it will eat up the express tracks on its assigned route of the once great BMT on its way to Coney Island. Have fun. Best wishes.
#3 West End Jeff
No problemo amigo. Just a bunch of flies trying to bait the lion in his den. I will merely swat them Brighton boys away if they give us any trouble.
Heh. Let's do it on the concourse line ... that's still Brighton territory even if it's been put on suspension. :)
I never considered the Concourse Line, Brighton Territory, after all previous to Christie St, the D ran on the Culver and previous to 54 ran omly to Hudson Term or 2nd ave. The Concourse is a IND Extension
Well ... maybe it's an interloper ... but it was working the D (and living at 205th) that makes me a "Brighton boy" ... don't mess with me or I'll defect to the Sea Witch if we're going to play this "IND" nonsense ... the way I look at it, the BMT finally went to the Bronx in 1967. :)
That's how I see it, too. Would have seen it even more were it not for the IND's rolling rubble we inherited. But the rubble was gone 5 years later....
Guys guys guys... let's all go after the W... WHO'S WIT MEEH!?!?
Can't do that. I like the West End and my good friend Jeff Alterman uses that train as his handle. Besides, he will be giving me backup as an honorary Sea Beach man.
Nothing against West End... just the W... *shivers at thought of W*
That's why I loved the number system. The Westie was #3 and it fit that train, #4 was my Sea Beach, #1 was the Brighton Bitch, eerr Beach. Then came these letters and I don;t know what the hell goes on. Letter and route changes come raining down like hail. Ridiculous.
I'll ride the "W" formerly #3 West End Line train. If not I'll ride the Sea Beach again.
#3 West End Jeff
When you have the chance, do you take the M or the W? The M is much more spacious and the equipment gives you a much better climate to be in.
My my...
Sea Beach is a more powerful entity, period. Think of serenity, water.
Brighton, think bright, fire.
Water can put out fire.
SeaBeach53
Gee ... all it did for me was make me realize I had to whiz. Whoops, wrong board. :)
Keep up the good work!
Oh Q, you do come out with some gems. Ever thought about being a card writer?
Probably you didn't to where you had to wizz in time and if you did you left some behind in your Brighton pants.
Probably you didn't to where you had to wizz in time and if you did you left some behind in your Brighton pants.
Maybe it's just me, but that makes no sense at all. Fred old buddy old pal ... have you been dipping into Salaam's mushrooms? :)
I have to admit Selkirk that post was not one of my finest moments now that I think of it. Well I will improve on it next time.
That's OK bro ... I know how it can get when ya start drooling on subtalk. Do it too often myself. Now about those mushrooms ... :)
Good God!!! That's sensational. Why didn't I thinkn of that. Congrats. Now stay on board as we take on the Brighton wimps.
Fred you said your 2nd favorite was the Brighton, after all it went to Bums Field and Prospect Park
It is Bob. It is. You know that but since I am always jousting with you guys I have to defend my No.1. For the record the Brighton is a real good line and I enjoy riding it. In fact, my favorite station as a kid was Prospect Park Station. Up the ramp and over to Ebbets Field to see my beloved Brooklyn team play. And no, I do NOT like the Los Angeles version.
Fred: Go back and read my post of 1526pm. Ltes vist the Brighton Line.
Larry,redbirdR33
That was a hell of a post and I enjoyed reading it. I did notice, however, that you took no pains to say a negative word or two about some other line---I wonder which. But it made good reading.
Now Fred: You know perfectly well that I was talking about the New York and Manhattan Beach. Would I say an unkind world about that open trench with four tracks in it? Best Wishes and Happy Birthday to you and Abe.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred s Birthday is in October, and Abe is his favorite Pres after the Gipper
Bob: You could have fooled me. I thought his favorite president was Jefferson Davis. Anyway I still wish him and Abe a Happy Birthday.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If Fred comes to visit me again here, we will have to go to Revolution War Sites, because he pissed off half the Red Necks down here
Don't let Bob kid you. He doesn't like those Yahoos anymore than I do. They just beg to be disrespected.
Don't tell me you two did your Brighton-Sea Beach act there, too.:-)
Any chance and every chance we get.
Oh no. That means we're sure to get thrown out of the subway now for having too much fun.
Did you two ever think about brushing up the "Who's on first/What's on second?" routine? Or perhaps concocting a Brighton/Sea Beach routine based on that?
I hope Bob doesn't read your last post to me. He will start taking himself seriously and start believing he's really funny.
Abe Lincoln is my favorite person period and to this practicing Catholic I consider him the greatest man since Jesus Christ. Gipper has to take a notch or two or three below.
Fred, I wish you could RUN the Sea Beach train
Hey John, no kidding, that was my dream when I was a kid. If I couldn't be a major league baseball player, I wanted to be a motorman driving a Sea Beach train. I kind of got sidetracked to the other side of the country and a professional occupation, but I still have dreams of motoring a Sea Beach train even today. Weird isn't it?
Let us npot get in to JC a lot of here are Jewish
Right Bob. But when I compared Abe Lincoln with Him my point was that Christians might think I was a little sacraligous to say such a thing, but that's the way I feel. Jews might just dismiss that opinion of mine with a grain of salt but I have gotten some strange looks from gentiles when I've made that statement before.
Abe Lincoln is one of my all-time favorites, too.
That's a start Q, but ONE of is still not good enough. He has to be the MAN because he is my main man and he is the all time American man.
I'm staying neutral over this...I think all of them lines are wonderful.
-J!
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Just a reminder the NY Division meeting location has been moved back to lower Manhattan starting this coming Friday Feb 15, 2002. Location is at 101 Murray Street, St John's University Manhattan Campus.
Friday's show feature Mr. Gary Grahl and his classic movie collection namely Milan, Rome, Turin, Domodossola and Rittnerbahn. With Vancouver, SEPTA Rt 6, the Welcome Line, and NY's Third Ave el in the Bronx.
It's going to be kind of eerie going down Murray St and looking left when crossing and not seeing anything of WTC, but a gaping hole.
The last time I was there was at the August meeting when everything was normal. One month after the August meeting, as we all know everything changed.
Bill "Newkirk"
It's ironic that I drove into the city for something on the evening of August 11th also, and remember being on the LIE glancing over to the WTC before I entered the tunnel. That was the last time I was in the city before 9/11, and the last time I looked at the WTC in person, even if from a distance. The city seemed so peaceful on that night on August 11th. If someone would have told me what was going to happen exactly one month later, I probably would have called Belleview to pick them up.
So the program coor. finally got his dad to put on a show, GOOD !
Those two realy love their buses & trains, it should be a great show.
Mr rt__:^)
Received in mail today:
RE:Second Avenue Subway Public Advisory Committee Meeting
Dear Interested Party:
The MTA/NYCT is continuing to work on a Supplemental Draft Environmental Impact Statement (SDEIS) for the Second Avenue Subway Project (MESA Study) The SDEIS is being prepared by the FTA and MTA/NYCT in order to evaluate a full-length Second Avenue Subway alignment in MAnhattan, extending from the vicinity of 125th St in HArlem to the Financial District in Lower Manhattan.
A public meeting to discuss the project is scheduled for:
Monday, March 4, 2002
6:00 to 8:00PM
MTA Headquarters
Fifth Floor Board Room
347 Madison Avenue
We encourage you to attend this meeting to hear about the current status and future plans for this important transit project and to let us know what you think. If you are unable to attend, you can send your comments to us by writing the Second Avenue Subway Project, New York Cuty Transit, 130 Livingston Street, Room 3010B, Brooklyn, NY 11201. For more information about the meeting, call the Second Avenue Subway Hotline at (718) 694-5164, email Secondavenuesubway@nyct.com or visit www.mat.info.
I'll do my best to come up from Philly to attend!
That should be www.mta.info...must be a typo.
David
So, I'm not the best typist.
If I studied this much when I was in school as the Second Avenue Subway has been "studied" over the years, I'd be a Rhoades Scholar.
Feb 09, 2002 07:59:35 PM
"Rail Update: Due to signal problems with Amtrak, North Jersey Coastline, North East Corridor , and Raritan Valley Line trains are suspended until further notice. Cross-honoring on all NJ TRANSIT buses is in effect. All other NJ TRANSIT trains, buses, and light rail lines are on or close to schedule."
NJT advisory notice
On the news just now, I heard it was due to a downed power line caused by a frieght. The NJT website also seems to say the same thing now.
CSX misrouted the car carriers again. :)
A friend of mine has told me to bring up a question converning the way trolleys ran over switches...
Was there some sort of mechanism or button or switch inside the cab of trolley cars that allowed them to throw a switch ahead of them so that they can diverge from a ROW to somewhere else? In other words, how did a streetcar trackbed switch get switched so that a trolley got to where it was going?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Yes. There were/are several different mechanisims for activating automatic switches from a streetcar. Without getting technical, these days they're all push button type affairs.
-Robert King
Just to get you to go a little more technical :-), what exactly is the mechanism by which Toronto streetcars throw switches? I know they push a button or something in the cab, but what happens underneath when they push that button?
On the streetcar:
The system in use now relies on two antennas on the streetcar; the first is mounted at the leading edge of the front truck and the second is mounted on the trailing edge of the last truck and both are wired to the autoswitch unit in the streetcar.
The autoswitch unit transmits the normal signal constantly and it includes the fleet number (or a unique identification number that can be used to trace down the fleet number, it apparantly varies from streetcar to streetcar) unless the NA button is pressed. If this is the case, the signal indicating that the switch should be thrown is transmitted; this signal also includes the fleet/unique number.
At the switch:
As you know, automatic switches have a sign hung above them saying NA with an arrow indicating the non-default direction of travel that the button must must be used to select. On the approach to an automatic switch there is a simple loop antenna embedded in the pavement between the rails whose location you can see by the rectangular cutout with clipped corners where the concrete was cut to install it. This loop recieves the signal from the first truck and sends it to the switch mechanisim which has a circuit board that activates the switch throwing mechanisim if the signal indicates that the NA button is being pressed.
Irrespective of whether or not the NA button on the streetcar is pressed, the switch's circuit board records the fleet number of the streetcar travelling over it and the amount of time between the first and second antenna passing over the loop. This information can be retrieved using a computer and the speed of the streetcar worked out.
In each path after the switch there is another antenna embedded in the concrete between the rails. This antenna receives the signal broadcast by the rear antenna on the streetcar; which this signal is recieved by a loop on the far side of a switch it obviously means that the streetcar has cleared it and that it should return, if thrown, to the default position.
The reason why this system was implemented in the 1980s is because the soon-to-be-delivered ALRVs would pose a problem with the traditional system that was activated in part by the pole when it reached a box mounted on the streetcar wire. ALRVs being 76 feet long, the front of the streetcar would already be well past the switch by the time the pole reached the box on the wire creating a very obvious problem. On the other hand, if the boxes were relocated further away from the switch, the drivers of PCCs, Witts (all three that were running back then) and CLRVs would have to hit the NA button well before their shorter streetcars reached the switch. This would be a nusiance, especially at complicated intersections where you can go left, right or straight and both switches involved are autoswitches. The antenna system is very convenient because the length of the streetcar doesn't matter.
-Robert King
Many, many, MANY thanks to you , my good friend...can you also talk to my friend about that? His e-mail is vp735@aol.com so you can tell hem...you can forward it to my e-mail, carlwal@hotmail.com
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
O.K. I got a silly question now but I'm actually quite serious. If the switches are set by the motorman in the car I assume there is no warning to people crossing the street. It seems that it would be very easy for someone to get their foot caught and crushed if the switch is thrown while someone is walking over it. Does that happen? Are there any safeguards?
I don't know if this has ever happened or not...
The more common occurrance is people standing on a streetcar island or the road beside the switch getting splashed head to toe when the switch moves and the tracks are full of water on a rainy day.
Either that or you get thoroughly splattered from the knees down with slush in the middle of winter.
-Robert King
I've never heard of that happening. There are no safeguards.
However, single-point street railway switches are much harder
to get one's foot caught in than double-point switches on open
track.
For someone to get their foot stuck in a switch when it throws they'd have to twist their foot perpendicular to the direction they'd be walking in to cross the street to get it IN the switch in the first place.
As for formal safeguards, there aren't any. However, the nose of the streetcar has to be almost immediately in front of the switch for the lead truck's antenna to be over the loop between the rails in order to cause the switch to throw. This means that the driver about to use the NA button will plainly see if someone is right in front of the streetcar sticking their foot in the switch and know not to push it. If, hypothetically, they did get their foot caught, the streetcar driver should be able to stop quick enough so as not to run them over, again the person in the way being plainly visible and the fact that one doesn't drive a streetcar over a single point switch very fast.
Secondly, if someone was crossing a street at the same time a streetcar was pulling up to the switch with the NA button down causing it to throw then something would be wrong anyways: Either the streetcar or the pedestrian would have to be going through a stoplight for this situation to arise. I don't think it's likely to happen, and if it did the moving streetcar would be the greater hazard to the person crossing at the switch than the suddenly moving switch point itself.
-Robert King
The reason I origionally asked this was that we had track training in a subway tunnel in the Police Dept and they specifically said not to put your feet anywhere near the switches because it could crush your foot. So I figured it would be the same on a street with active trolley switches.
I remember something about taking power or coasting across switches/turnout on systems that used poles.
Before there were transmitters or other similar devices for communicating between the trolley and the switch mechanism the direction of the switch was set according to whether the car went through a marked point before the switch with the power on or off.
If the switching cirucit detected that the car was drawing power as it passed this point, it set the switch one way, if the car wasn not drawing power, it set the switch the other way.
PCCs had a switch on the dash that drew a single point of power, so that the motorman could indicate a "power on" situation to the switching mechanism without having to accelerate.
This usually worked. When it didn't the motorman had to grab his switch iron and move the switch manually.
Many many MANY thanks to all Subtalkers who gave input on this issue!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Unless I'm mistaken, Philadelphia still uses a power/turn coast/straight setup on the few electric switches that remain on the city system. There was also another type of electric switch at some intersections that allowed the switch to be reset by a passing car if it took a lesser-used diverging route, such as for depot pull-ins. There used to be one of these on Island Avenue northbound at Elmwood Avenue on Route 36.
Nope, SEPTA went to V-Tach on the Subway-Surface in the 1980's, with the introduction of the K cars.
The old Cheatham electric switch control (power on for diverging route, power off for straight) became increasingly unreliable beginning in the late 1970's. The technology was early 1900's, and parts were no longer available. Trolley contactors, relays, switch motors, nothing was available any more, and replacement parts had to be hand made in the shops. As the North Philadelphia lines were killed, the electric switch equipment was salvaged for the West Philly lines, but even that didn't keep the switches working. The good old fashioned switch iron became an everyday tool.
The only electric switches that SEPTA made damn sure they worked all the time was at the switch in the subway at 32nd street westbound and at 49th & Woodland. V-Tach made everybody's life a little easier.
After attending a record show in Wayne, I drove down to Belleville to check out the Newark City Subway:
1) I don't know what the names of the two new stations will be, but they are pretty much complete. All that is needed is the TVMs and pay phones. Not too sure about signals here. Oh yeah, station signs are yet to be installed. At the last stop, a new bus stop accommodating two buses seems new. An "arts for transit" type of sculpture looks nice, though the brick foundation was already grafittied.
2) At the last stop I photographed, through the chain link fence, one station track LOADED with PCCs. Lined up elephant style, pans down, makes a nice shot. Saw more PCCs at the other end of the yard on what looks like a loop track.
3) Meanwhile at Branch brook Park station, a high railer truck from Massachusetts Electric seemed to be doing some signal related work, Buses were the rule today. I noticed a new signal head covered up with plastic I've never seen before.
Well, that's it for the NCS, check out those line of PCCs at the last station, makes a nice shot.
According to http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/Rail_Map_10_2001_Inset.pdf the two new stations will be called Grove Street and Silver Lake
NJT told me it will be summer before the extension opens and "if there are no construction delays."
Here's a tidbit: NCS #14 is on its way to Muni as a test car,
possible prelude to a large portion of the fleet being sent out
there either on long-term lease or permanently.
I thought they weren't "sharing" the PCC's?
Confirms a rumor I heard form an employee of NCS.
I be glad just to see that they don't get cut up & am happy for that last ride I took the day before they ended their career at NCS.
Now if only they can get the NCS working as well as HBLR.
Mr rt__:^)
> as well as HBLR
I dunno... every time I've ridden the HBLR they've had some sort of car trouble requiring a "power cycle"-- as recently as November they were still experiencing glitches. I was meeting some friends for dinner in Bayonne one night and we were delayed 10 min. while the motorman reset his car several times between LSP and 34th St.-Bayonne.
Guess I was lucky the day 3 of us did some railfanning on both branches. No commuters, frequent service on a Monday, it was enjoyable.
Mr rt__:^)
>>Here's a tidbit: NCS #14 is on its way to Muni as a test car<<
So much for keeping the cars for a heritage line in New Jersey.
Bill "Newkirk"
Early this evening, after finishing up some errands, my Trans Am and I felt like talking a little road trip. I decided to head down to Joliet, where I enjoy watching the trains there at Joilet's Union Station. The station sits at an active junction and tower, and it's hard to spend much time there without seeing at least a couple trains go by.
At the junction, there's three BNSF tracks crossed by the Rock Island District Metra line. While there, I saw:
1) Outbound (from Chicago) Metra train pulls into station on Rock Island track
2) Inbound Amtrak long-distance Superliner (Southwest Chief? California Zephyr?) train makes a stop on the outer BNSF track
3) Outbound Amtrak Texas Eagle makes a stop after crossing over to outer BNSF track. Within the consist of this train was a CalTrain commuter coach.
4) Southbound Amtrak regional train make a stop on the outer BNSF track
5) Inbound Metra train departs on Rock Island track
6) Big-ass BNSF freight train with four locomotives passes northbound through station on middle BNSF track
7) At almost the exact time, a another big-ass BNSF freight train with four locos passes southbound through station on inner BNSF track. The vibrations from the locomotives rattle my fillings.
8) Outbound Metra train pulls into station on Rock Island track
9) Inbound Metra train departs on Rock Island track
Incredibly, all this happened within a span of less than 30 minutes! I've spent a lot of time on that platform watching trains go by, but I've never seen that much activity within such a short time period. Very cool!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Where's "the J" in all this?
I counted three upper-case J's (including one in the subject line) and three lower-case J's in my posting. I believe the J was amply represented.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I cant believe I didnt include the car #s I was in a rush. From North to South. 2145 2148 2150 1705 1704 1703 1702 1701 2154 2151? I think thats the 10th car Im not sure. unless its 2147?
>>1705 1704 1703 1702 1701<<
Those are Pelham cars, I though Broadway and Lenox cars were supposed to go to the #7.
Bill "Newkirk"
Pelham cars are supposed to go to Broadway :-)
That was the plan, but the reality is that 1701 and mates are in Corona. Every decision the TA makes today is subject to change tomorrow.
Most of the cars going to the No.7 Line should be coming from Pelham and New Lots.
>>Most of the cars going to the No.7 Line should be coming from Pelham and New Lots.<<
I heard here that the Broadway R-62As would go over because they were in the best condition. If you're going to send over hand-me-downs to the #7, why not the best of the bunch ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry for another post up However, This is the offical consist. From North to South: 2145 2148 2150 1705 1704 1703 1702 1701 2154 2153. I mentioned that 2151 was coupled to 2154 thats a mistake. 2154 is coupled to 2153.
Where's the 11th car ?
From today's Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51837-2002Feb9.html
Hmmm. One paragraph struck me as interesting:
For CAF, the Washington Metro award was "huge," said Virginia Verdeja, vice president of sales for CAF-USA. Shortly after, CAF won contracts with transit agencies in Pittsburgh and Sacramento. The company is building a large plant in Elmira, N.Y., and another plant in Sacramento.
Now why would they possibly want to build one plant in California and one plant in New York State? Sounds like Bombardier and Kawasaki may get a new competitor for the R-160 contract...
why Ca, NY?
for the two largest rail markets w/ the "state content" issue covered. Also note they are probably not building a new plant just leasing some other plant. Can anyone tally the various builders who have used the ex E-L Hornell Shops?
Which was my point (more on N.Y. than on California). The R-160 order is going to be the mother of all subway rolling stock contracts for the foreseeable future (until the rest of the R-32s and the R-44s go), and it looks like it's going to be a battle between the French (Canadians), the Japanese and the Spanish to see who gets the deal.
As for the CAF order for WMATA coming in one year behind schedule, that's probably not a disqualifying factor, when you consider that Bombardier's R-142 order was supposed to have gotten to New York and gotten into service in late 1999-2000, with the Kawasaki R-142A order next, and then the supplemental R-142 Bombardier order to follow. Kawasaki pretty much got their work done on schedule and seem to have done a good job on the R-143s as well, but the crew up near Plattsburgh is running about two years behind schedule right now.
and CAF couldn't even use the correct steel for the axles 1st time around. READ the SPEC's! I don't much care where the corporate (criminal) enterprise has its headquarters, but for the astronomical prices they could at least build something that works. The idea that the end user has to send its own team of assembly line enforcers is ludicrous--think about having to visit a Honda factory to see if your new car is being put together wrong. Its too bad Bill Agee drove MK into the ground--about the last "domestic" assenbler.
Give the contract to Budd, of Philadelphia. They are domestic and built the R-32, which is an excellent car that will far outlast most of what the TA is running now. They also built those great Almond Joys, which dominated the Market-Frankford El for nearly 40 years.
Sadly BUDD isn't there anymore.
U can hep yourself 2 a whole fleet of excess red line cars
" the subway 2 nowhere " italian built breada transverse cab cars !
lol! theres a whole lot of em 2 go around ....
U can hep yourself 2 a whole fleet of excess red line cars
los angeles red line...
" the subway 2 nowhere " italian built breada transverse cab cars !
lol! theres a whole lot of em 2 go around ....
One of the biggest areas for problems with the CAF cars has been their sophisticated software. Each pair of rail cars has eight computer systems. Six of those systems, which are built by five manufacturers, must work together. Getting that electronic communication to work has been a nightmare, Metro engineers said.
There's the wonder of technology for you. Why can't they learn to keep things simple? Use the proven systems in the old design cars. I bird in the car is worth 2 on the platform.
while I certainly believe in proven hardware (and software), innovation is worthwhile. The more critical issue to me is QC. In my own trade I often "play with" a new style connector or some other part in my own home. If it survives, then I am willing to put them out at a client's site. I am so pleased to se the R-32's still rolling up the miles. BUDD was so good! Th end of their ability to survive in the feast/famine purchase cycle was a disaster.
You are absolutly correct the issue is quality control. I don't understand transit operators. Why are they always looking to bring in new manuaafctures. IT seems to me the problems Metro, NYC transit and others have with there rail car orders is that they all are ordering brand new model products from different manuafactures . Anyone who knows anything about creating new products will tell you that there is a learning curve on manuafacturing the product with a high deal of quiality.
A car buyer rule of thumb is never buy an early production model of a new car model. I looking to pick up a nissan altima. I am waiting to the summer until they work out all the early production issues
In addition, having multiple rail cards in ones inventory increases the cost of maintence + training of crews.
Why don't US transit agencies get together and standardize some of the internal components + software. This will reduce the cost and problems with new rail cars. IT JUST MAKES SENCE.
You would think that some manufacturer would have followed in the path of EMD. You offer standard models that can be ordered w/ modular options to conform to your unique operating needs. New models are based on older models so you have a great degree of interchangeable parts and instead of scrapping, older cars can be traded in and the parts recycles into newer cars. Today, it seems like every time someone needs a new transit vehicle all these companies go about re-inventing the wheel.
Actually some of the LRV systems out west have bought nearly off the shelf from Siemens and others. That was in fact the original way San Diego got started so cheap. They bought 'standard' euro design--no US content no FTA standards, no accessibility, no Fed money.
well, because they got burned so bdly when they tried in the 70's. Remember the "standard" LRV? The "wonderful" Boeings, so excellent Boston refused the last forty or so and SF ended up with them. Well they are all gone now in Sf although some heavily rebuilt soldier on in Boston. NYCTA tried to standardize, but then bought nothing for so long none of the old builders were around.
And technology marches on, so even if you want tried and true it may no longer be available.
At present, Kawasaki ges my vote for least crap--both batches for SEPTA seem to perform well. As to Breda, less said better. Bombardier seemed to be okay several production runs back, now ???
Kinki Sharyu and Nippon Sharyo (maybe same outfit different groups) did well with Boston type 7's & CSS&SB 'new cars', but seem not to have been involved more recently.
Anybody know what's going on with the old Bowling Green shuttle platform? Seems that a temporary plywood wall has been erected, blocking its view from the in service area.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Anybody know what's going on with the old Bowling Green shuttle platform? Seems that a temporary plywood wall has been erected, blocking its view from the in service area.
Asbestos removal, from what I've heard. Most likely the temporary wall is used to contain dust.
When will the work be finished?
Confirmed....same thing is being done with the escalator 50 feet from the Battery Park/State Street ("kiosk") exit.
Stuart, RLine86Man
They took down the signs!!! You know, the ones on that platform advertising the (4)(5)! And it looks like they're getting rid of the light shield too, like they did with the in-service platforms.
The mention of stairway access to the abandoned 18th Street station in the recent Newsday article on a possible restaurant/bar got me wondering about the covered-over staircases.
I had remembered that after the '91 Union Square accident, the staircases had been covered over with concrete. But I was wrong.
On the SE corner of Park Ave South and E 18th, a metal double door in the sidewalk (right at the 18th Street curb) is now surrounded by a fence of 2x4s covered in orange construction netting. Most tempting of all, the lock on the doors seems to have been removed -- the hasp is just sitting there open.
I'm a law-abiding guy. But, damn, am I tempted ....
naturally, Jim, should you be caught the secretary will deny any knowledge...
I took a tour once of the 18th street station (and 91 st) about 3 years ago. It was really strange having the 6 train stop at 18th stree and a bunch of people exit into the darkness of the 18th street station. It was a really cool tour and I got some great slides of the mosaics (that can be seen above the grafitti) and the little 18 signs that run along the ceiling. The station tile work seems very much intact under the grafitti, and the cement flowers along the ceiling are still there also.
When we got back on, we just told the people on the Lexington Ave local that we had been waiting for a train since 1965 :)
--Mark
And it wasn't funny then, either :-)
That's one joke I'd never mind hearing at any fan trip ever again.
With all the messages I have read on this board about possible service patterns when the Manhattan Bridge reopens (hopefully in 2004) I have had this thought:
Since November 1967, "Normal service" has been B & D over the North side of the bridge, and 6th avenue, and N over the South Side, and Broadway. For the most part, this held for almost 20 years, till construction started in 1986.
Since 1986, however, there have only been very brief periods of full normal service. That means there is an entire generation of Subway Riders, who do not know what "Normal service" is. I am talking about everyday riders, not railfans. How many everyday riders have no idea that the N is supposed to go over the bridge?
Your thoughts????
I know what you mean. I shocked me 3 years ago when I learned ALL about the Manhattan Bridge and it's original plans. It's weird to grow up thinking that what you grew up with is fake and not the way it's supposed to be.
Heck - I still consider the PRE - 1967 the "Normal service" - everything since is the result of the IND Invasion...
May the North Side never re-open... ;-)
I won't stir those worms but...
Indeed short memory, no sense of history allows the rulers to pretend things can't be done which used to be SOP.
CSX and others whine about lack of track capacity for passenger trains, solicit increased freight business and can't deliver any of it on time. Yet if one looks at public timetables of the 50's and 60's they were running many many passenger trains in between enough freights to keep them close to solvent. Where did the dispatching skill go? (left with the telegraph, pre CTC signalling and a can do attitude if you ask me) Meanwhile the incredibly fascistic move of having all dispatching done from a single VULNERABLE location was adopted by several of the least well managed shops. Imagine dispatching the IRT from somewhere in Kentucky whem you have never ridden most of the division. (Not every veteran dispatcher was willing to be uprooted when the centers opened.
In my early days of railfanning, I used to enjoy taking the "T" from Times Square (brand new R32) to Ninth Avenue. I would get on the Culver Shuttle (BMT Standard) to Ditmas Ave, than get on the "D" (R1/9, and take it home, at the time Ft Hamilton PKY.
yea !
all railfan window equipped !!
my man !
Yes---
And I remember, as a kid, riding the R1's and R4's which had the bar on the middle of the railfan window. When I was very young, I could see below it. Than, the bar blocked my view, unless I ducked. Finally I grew tall enough to see OVER THE BAR!!!
Since I didn't know the difference between the different models between R1 & R9 at the time it drove me crazy that some trains had the bar and others were one window. I thought they were all the same at the time and would think, "didn't these trains have 2 windows", etc. Same thing with the little nich or recess on the outside doors under the small windows. I'd see a train without it and think "didn't they have them"!!!
Actually, you have it reversed. Storm doors on the R-1s and R-4s had one large pane of glass while those on the R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s had a split window. Cars 100 and 484 at the Transit Museum have the former while Shoreline's 1689 has the latter.
That last prewar D train I ever rode on had a large pane of glass; it was an R-4 without headlights. Too cool!!
Yes!
You had it right. I had it reversed.
Heck - I still consider the PRE - 1967 the "Normal service" - everything since is the result of the IND Invasion...
Me too, Jim!
"Hear,hear." Your absolutely right "T". I still consider the Chrystie Street project to be a bad decision. One major part of it was only used for eight years and then forgotten.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Chrystie Street project balanced out service. All BMT service previously went up one overcrowded line with almost nowhere to go at the north end, while the IND 6th Avenue service was underserved and had only one line out at the south end.
Lary .. I'm not sure I agree with you on this one ... as American Pig stated, the opening of Chrystie St balanced out service, whereas before you always had crowding on one direction and barely anyone picked up in the other .... so I'm not sure how it was a bad decision.
From separate division purists, OK ... I guess I could agree, but from an operational standpoint, it was the right thing to do.
--Mark
Also, if the opening of the Chrystie St link were a bad decision, why is everyone complaining now that it's been closed again? We've got 1967 all over again.
The 4 tracks over the Manhattan Bridge are much better utilized all going to midtown. The Montague tunnel is sufficient for the traffic between the Brooklyn "BMT" southern division and lower Manhattan (note that it's only running about 21 tph). And the Nassau Loop didn't allow for particularly productive use of the south tracks on the bridge, especially not in the morning rush hour.
Mark: My opinion on the Chrystie Street Line is based on more then just sentiment. Prior to Chrystie Street almost all Southern Divsion trains ran into the Broadway Line. The Broadway Line had wide platforms,was close to the street,hence less stairs to climb and had convenient connections to the East and West Side IRT Mains and the two major crosstown routes not to mention the 6 Avenue Line. The 6 Avenue platforms are very deep in most cases, West 4 Street and 34 Street comes to mind. If you arrive on the lower level of West 4 Street you are four levels below the street surface. And since subway escalators are far and few between and work about as well as the pay phones you had to do a lot of climbing to see daylight.
The Brighton-Broadway via Bridge Express Service was very popular and very fast,also very popular surprisingly was the Brighton-Broadway
via Tunnel Local Service. Even though it was a somewhat longer ride the local passengers had a one seat ride and the local went places the express didn't.
The 6 Avenue Line with one exception has inconvient transfers. The one at Broadway-Lafayette is to southbound IRT trains only. West 4 I have already mentioned. The transfer to the 7 Avenue IRT at 14 Street requires a block long walk,only the one to the 14 Street Line is conveniant. The transfer at 34 Street requires a long climb and you have to navigate a whole system of ramps and tunnels. The trasfer at 42 Street requires another block long walk. When Chrystie Street first openned this was a part time transfer point using paper tickets. Passengers had to exit one station and walk above ground to the other.
Effective with Chrystie Street the bulk of Brighton Local service was rerouted into the Nassau Street Line. There certainly wasn't the demand for it. Brighton-Broadway service was now provided by a Brighton Local not an express and there were only five trains each way during the rush. Two more were added in the am rush and one in the pm rush the next day but it in no way made up for the fomrer Q service. The NX was doomed to failure from the start. Not only did it take a round about routing but it was limited because of signal restrictions on the Sea beach Line.
I could probably go on for another hour on this subject. I will make the observation though that since 1985 because of the ongoing rebuilding of the Manhattan Bridge the times when all four bridge tracks have been is service has not been much and we seems to be back at pre-Chryystie Street Levels of service.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
It's ironic that with normal post Chrystie service almost all of the Brooklyn lines are orange and go into 6th Avenue, the most inconvient line to transfer and exit, as you say. Now, aside from the Nassau loop severed, they are all like pre-Chrystie routes.
I do agree with you that it is easier to exit Broadway stations, but I do believe that service is better when the post Chrystie routes are all running properly It gives many more options.
I agree with Larry, before Christie St there were 3 Express Services and 2 Local on Bdwy, during main hours, nights and Sundays 3 Exp and 1 Local. The transfers were better, the only problem, nothing went North of Midtown. (The Brighton Local ran Exp in Manhatten over thge Manny B when the Exp did not run)
Actually, the QB ran local in Manhattan between Canal and 57.
The N was an express 24/7, including in Brooklyn.
The RR was local, via tunnel, 24/7.
The T ran primarily rush hours and daytime Saturday and, I believe Sunday, and was express via the bridge.
The Q ran express M-F rush hours and mid-day. The QT ran local during the same times. The QB ran at other times.
The TT ran local via Nassau M-F rush hours and midday; and shuttled to 36 St late nights.
Summarizing:
On Broadway: Rush hours: 3 expresses, 2 locals
M-F Midday: 2 expresses, 2 locals
Sat/Sun: 2 expresses, 2 locals (1 over bridge)
Late Nite: 1 express, 2 locals (1 over bridge)
On 4 Av: Rush hours: 2 expresses, 2 locals
M-F Midday: 1 express, 2 locals
Sat/Sun: 2 expresses, 1 local
Late Nite: 1 express, 1 local
On Brighton: Rush hours and M-F Midday: 1 express, 1 local
Other times: 1 local
Fer chrissakes, Larry, it was supposed to be a part of a bigger plan. I think it unfair to knock the design when it was stillborn. If the legendary 2nd Ave line ever gets built the Chrystie St connection will become more useful. Secondarily the KK to which you refer became obsolete as the neighbohood pairs ceased to be destination/origin pairs. For 'traditionalists the decoupling of the South Side L (now Green Line) from the Howard Street runs (Red Line northside) was a sad thing BUT, the numbers were inexorable. The Dan Ryan line and the Howard line had similar loads, the South Side L had much less ridership. So the change was made, and the cars are better used.
David: The prime fault with the Chrystie Street Subway is what it has always been. A crowded junction at DeKalb Avenue that was not built to handle the lines that fed into it. If we consider all five southern division routes you have 16 tracks trying to feed into a six track junction. (Brighton four,Sea Beach four,West End three,Culver three and 4 Avenue,below 59 Street two.) The fact that the Culver Line did not use the 4 Avenue Subway for nearly 16 years after it opened and even then continued to split its service between the subway and the 5 Avenue El was a tacit recognition of this. You are right that Chrsytie was part of a larger plan. So was the Archer Avenue Subway and yet for over ten years Jamaica passengers had to ride the Q-49 bus when a perfectly good subway line was closed long before there was a suitable replacement.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Brighton four,Sea Beach four,West End three,Culver three and 4 Avenue,below 59 Street two.)
Flawed count. The Culver isn't connected to DeKalb
Also who will use the Sea Beach or West End Express tracks? Even so, having three tracks is as good as having two as the trains will have to go back on one track anway. Thus there aren't 16 but rather only 10 tracks feeding into DeKalb Avenue.
Pigs Prior to Christie and 1954 the Culver did go to DeKalb
I think he was talking about the past when the Culver used the shuttle route to 9th Av. That's why he had the line "A crowded junction at DeKalb Avenue that was not built to handle the lines that fed into it."
DeKalb Avenue doesn't have a problem routing those trains. Back then there were effectively only four tracks out of DeKalb, now there are six, as many tracks as in the station. If there are too many trains running into DeKalb, that's not the Chrystie Street connection's problem, but it certainly gave more of them someplace to go.
One major part of it was only used for eight years and then forgotten.
I don't think the "forgotten" part was as major as the part that goes through Grand street. I have a few questions though:
1)Does the Essex to Bway-Laf connection get used for "non-revenue runs, and if so how often?
2)Has there recently been any SERIOUS talk about restoring service?
3)Why did they completely disconnect the Nassau line from the MB completely, and if they wanted to could they put in switches to restore it for emergencies?
4)How would the 2nd Ave subway affect the use of either Chrystie connection, as was mentioned in another post?
Answer for # 4: The Grand Street station would serve the 6th Avenue (D)/(Q)/(B) [after 2004] AND Second Avenue lines (whatever line letter assigned to it) as a cross platform transfer...the walls in Grand St. Station were built with this option in mind.
Stuart, RLine86Man
... as a cross platform transfer...the walls in Grand St. Station were built with this option in mind.
They might as well build it as part of the north side of the Manny B restoration.
Not if they want the SAS (Second Av. Subway) to go to Whitehall St and the newly (at the time it's finished, of course) rebuilt SI Ferry Terminal.
Stuart, RLine86Man
The whole area was designed as a flying switch junction, as well as across the platform transfer. This is why the tracks begin separating north of the station. So the Queens-2nd Av line could continue to Whitehall, while the full length line continues to Brooklyn (or vice versa), sharing the north side tracks like the Q with the B and D. Even before the Water St line or connection to Nassau St. is built, this connection (the original purpose for Chrystie St-- which is 2nd Av. below Houston) could be built and used.
Was the Bway-Laf to Essex Street connection supposed to tie into the second Ave Subway also?
How can trains get turned at Whitehall? There is only one track that is not in use. I doubt it would be a good idea to cause delays on the N, R. They would need to build more trackage, possibly a loop track. Also, if the W is planned to be Whitehall to Astoria, will that interfere with the 2nd Avenue subway getting turned at Whitehall?
The Whitehall being referred to is the 'hypothetical' end of the line for 2nd Ave - not the existing station on the N/R.
1) The Chrystie St Connection was used for a while in 1968 after the D started going over the Brighton Line to Coney Island. I think at one time it was the K train that used it.
2) I don't think there was any serious talk. The reason for the K no longer running was that nobody was taking it.
3) The Nassau Line is no longer connected to the MB. I remember riding a (I think) a R-38 going to Brooklyn. I was in the last car. As the train was going on the bridge I saw 2 lay-ups behind me with bumper blocks between them and me.
4) I believe the route of the 2nd Ave Subway is supposed to include the station at Grand/Chrystie. 2 additional tracks with the 2 there now.
the Chrystie st line was the Second ave line flying juction,as memory serves me,the tracks from the Willie B WERE SUPPOSE TO RUN INTO SECOND AVE....as were the tracks from Manny B.The MAIN Trunck line[Second ave] was to continue into the Nassau street line at the Chambers street station for Brooklyn service. these lines were all suppose to share the GRAND ST STATION with 4 tracks island platform type with SECOND AVE TRAINS ONE THE OUTSIDE TRACKS...
The Nassau loop connection was severed from the Manhattan Bridge because it was underutilized. Prior to Chrystie St., the south side tracks were used only during rush hours. If they really wanted to, they could reconnect the loop tracks. As you pointed out, the tracks come up almost to where the Broadway tracks swing over, so it would be simply a matter of installing a switch if they wanted to reconnect one track, or an at-grade crossover if both tracks were to be reconnected. Ain't gonna happen, though.
Why would the N want to go over the brige? That's just silly.
"Why would the N want to go over the brige? That's just silly."
Why is it silly?
You have 2 4th Ave locals and 2 4th Ave expresses in Brooklyn. Doesn't it make the most sense to balance them evenly? One to lower Bway, one to Nassau St, one to upper Bway via Bridge, one to 6th Ave?
Namely, R, M, N, B (currently W) respectively.
Why send 2 4th Ave services to the same place (the tunnel) and underutilize the bridge? Most of the riders want to go to midtown anyway. 75% of Manhattan jobs are north of Canal.
Especially now, with 9/11 and all
Everyone born after 1986 would belive that the B,D and Q on the North side is normal service. I did until I got hold of a 1985 subway map.
I was born in 1982 and I always knew about the N over the bridge. I would look at the subway map when I was 3 and would see the Orange, Yellow and Brown line in Brooklyn, then it was only Orange and Yellow, then it was all Yellow (and I liked the color orange better) so I was really happy when I saw the D and Q become orange.
The past is gone and it won't return. What you are really trying to say is that you aren't used to the new routes. With your logic, I could say that "normal" IRT service is from City Hall, across 42 St and up Broadway. But the subway changed, so the routing changed with it. Whatever the routing a published for the present IS normal service. Remember that subways evolve and expand, so with that, changes are inevitable.
Actually what you said is very true. There is no "normal" service. Normal is whatever they decide is the routing at the time. The N train used to run on Queens Blvd. Is the "normal" route of the N on Queens Blvd or to Astoria? It's "normal" route is to Astoria, because that is what they have chosen to do at this time. Hypothetically they could one day choose to send the N into the 63rd street tunnel, then that would be the normal route.
Maybe one day they will but the N back on the MB like it used to go, and I prefer, but right now the "normal" route of the N is through the tunnel (sorry SeaBeach Fred)
The original route of the IRT is a perfect example. The normal routing was from City Hall to 145th, but now normal is what we have now. I wonder why they didn't leave the track connection to allow for trains to run the 42nd street route. It would save a lot of time for people traveling diagnally across Manhattan. It would be nice to have a route like that. I wonder why they didn't keep the connections, even if it was just the express tracks.
Technically normal is what that generation is use to. You was use to the N going to Continental Avenue. I am use to the N to Astoria. So in my sence there is no normal
And before '68 normal for the Sea Beach was 57th Street with no Queens at all.
N trains didn't start going to Queens until 1976.
Which line ran to Queens in place of the N, before the N did in 1976?
The R from Bay Ridge, and before that the EE from Whitehall (rush hours and weekdays daytime only).
So the N was actually the "interloper" on Queens Blvd for the time it ran there. The R is right at home.
So if the RR was on Queens Blvd and the N only ran to 57th, what was the Astoria line?
Anybody remember the "T" for West End, pre Chrystie Street?
-JohnS
I'll have to correct myself. The 'T' ran to Times Square or
57th Street. The 'TT' was the night time shuttle. Service
to Astoria was 'Q' via Manny B.
Prior to the 'RR' it was BMT Standards of the Brighton Local that invaded QB via 60th Street on weekdays only.
-JohnS
The T did run to Astoria during rush hours in the early and mid-60s (it didn't operate during middays). On Saturdays, it ran only to 57th St. The QB and QT also operated to Astoria, but they didn't run at the same time.
What I resented about Christie the most was that it deprived me of a one-seat ride to Coney Island - Jamaica got two services to Coney Island (F and QJ), the 6th Avenue IND (pfffft!) line stole my beloved T and the other Coney Island service (D) went to the Bronx. Astoria was given the shaft!!!
At least I get to enjoy the W while it lasts ;-)
So if the RR was on Queens Blvd and the N only ran to 57th, what was the Astoria line?
Okay, a quick summary of what has served the Astoria Line in the past...
until 1942: IRT Elevated #3 train (South Ferry - 2 Av - Q'boro Bridge - Astoria)
1942-1949: IRT #8 train (Times Sq - Steinway Tunnel - Astoria)
1949-1955: BMT #2 train (i.e. the RR train), BMT #1 train (Brighton Local; 6am - 7pm Monday to Saturday)
1955-1961: BMT #2 train, BMT #1 train (Brighton Express - Broadway Express; Monday to Friday peaks only)
[In 1960 the #2 became the RR and the #1 became the QB or QT.]
1961-1967: QB (6am - 7pm Monday to Friday), QT (rest of the time), T (rush hours, Monday to Friday)
1967-1986: RR
1986-1987: R (same route - just single lettered)
1987 to date: N
Also in the early to mid 1980s the following peak direction express services ran at various times:
B (Yellow) - Peak Direction Express (when both sides of the Manny B were closed)
N - Peak Direction Express.
The Brighton Express ran on Saturdays also
The Brighton Express ran on Saturdays also
I thought it did, but I checked on this site and apparently not...
In BMT Days the Brighton Exp ran 6 days a week, the last train left Times Square at 932PM Southbound. When we visited family in the Bronx or Inwood, My dadalways made sure we made the train to connect with it.
I think the Brighton Express ran on Saturdays until about 1963 or so. What was interesting about it was the local was an extended Franklin Av shuttle, that is, only the express ran between PP and DeKalb.
Wow that's pretty cool, so the Frankin Shuttle wasn't a short shuttle on Saturdays. Pretty cool, almost like a real line. I didn't realize it ever went more than it's few stations since the Fulton el was torn down.
I do vaguely remember the B going to Astoria, as you said it did for a while.
I remember as a teenager that it used to be the RR to Astoria
the E, F , EE, & GG downstairs at 74th st and of course
the IRT #7 local & express.
I can recall for the longest time they always used to say change for the IRT trains to Flushing upstairs, or the IND/BMT trains to Manhattan downstairs (74th/Roosevelt Ave)
And it was always the train, not the subway or the El, just the train
Now that I live outside Phila, people here say the Sub, or the El.
In Woodside/Jackson Hts Queens it was the train.
I couldn't have asked for a better area to live in, the service
to the city was great, and close. Does anyone remember the terminal
bar at the 74th st bus terminal? What a place!
And it was always the train, not the subway or the El, just the train Now that I live outside Phila, people here say the Sub, or the El.
When I used to live in Ridgewood, I used to know a woman who called the M train, "the railroad". I always thought that as strange, but knowing her, she was probably never on a real railroad.
It is funny how New Yorkers call the whole system "subway" That implies "underground". All the elevated lines are really not "subway", even though they tie into the "subway system"
You got the QB and QT services reversed.
Well spotted.
Brighton Exp and 4th Ave Local to Astoria Brighton Local to Forest Hills Week Days, Astoria Nights and Weekends in the 50s, At one time all the Bdwy Express Lines Terminated at Times Sq and then 57, and the Locals ran to Astoria before 1955
Before that the R and Brighton Lines in BMT Days
I think you missed my point!
The rerouting of the IRT (Back in 1918) was supposed to be a permanent change due to new construction. The flipping of the N & R in Queens was to reduce empty car milage, as the old R had no yards at either end of the run. Similar for the 2 & 3 flip, to make use of the Pavonia shop.
The moving of the N to the tunnel was never intended to be permanent, or long term for that matter. In the mid 80's they thought the bridge would be out of service for 2 years, at most.
I am certain the N will return to the bridge, once construction is complete, and 4 tracks are available.
I hope the N does return to the bridge, and I understand what you mean, but "normal" for a lot of people is the N through the tunnel. As for two years of contruction on the Manny Bridge, BOY WERE THEY WRONG!
(That means there is an entire generation of Subway Riders, who do not know what "Normal service" is.)
You might say that for Brooklyn residents, service has NEVER been normal, if by normal you mean the full service potential of a fully open bridge.
At the time the BMT was built, most of Manhattan's employment was located south of 14th Street, with some additional employment along Broadway up to Times Square. East Midtown, not the place with the most jobs, was residential.
In the Post-1945 period, Midtown boomed -- the city's jobs moved further away from Brooklyn. The Chrystie Street connection was supposed to adjust for this, by allowing 2/3 of the trains through DeKalb (rather than 1/3) to go express to Midtown, bypassing Downtown -- thus matching the distribution of jobs. The unused part of Chystie Street was intended to give Broadway BMT riders access to Midtown as well.
Chrystie Street opened in 1967, and the Manhattan Bridge oddessy started in 1982. Therefore, Brooklyn had just 15 years of full service. But how full was it? Those were the years of deferred maintenance, service collapse, crime and grime. They are years that we hope will be an abberation, and not "normal."
Even with the Manhattan Bridge fully open, Brooklyn will be missing a few important pieces. Willie B riders will still have to transfer down those crowded stairs to reach Midtown. A/C/and F riders will still have a hard time reaching the toe of Manhattan. And 6th Avenue riders will have a hard time transferring to reach the East Side.
Therefore, "normal" for me includes two express trains on each side of the bridge during rush hours, and the construction of the Jay Street-Lawrence and Broadway/Lafayette-Bleeker connections (these are on the drawing boards). "Normal" should also mean having he V train take the Willie B, taking the place of the J/Z.
I really think the V should even now go over the Willy B instead of terminating at 2nd Ave. It may even eliminate the need for the Grand St shuttle, because passengers could use Essex, without a transfer. Grand could be closed until the MB opens again.
Then everyone in Chinatown would complain
Well they shouldn't be able to make the decision of whether or not a station closes. It should be the MTA's decision. There are already 2 stations in Chinatown and one of them being Canal St, should be very efficient. The Grand St. Shuttle is not getting people very far anyway. They still need to transfer to get virtually anywhere, why not just go in at East Broadway?
The V simply CAN'T go over the Willy B, despite it being a nice idea. The V uses 75 ft cars and 600 ft trains. 75 ft cars cannot get round some of the curves on the Eastern Division without hitting eachother in passing. Also, most of the platforms aren't long enough. With congestion on Queens Boulevard as it is, a 480 ft train would be a joke - that is it would be if it were funny. So, unfortunately, no V across the Willy B.
Oh well...........
The only other way the local tracks of the Christie St Connection could be used would be a MAJOR change - swap the local services at West 4th St, thus giving:
C: 168 St Wash Hts (or BPB) - 8th Av - Houston St - Willy B - Jamaica Center or Metropolitan
E: Jamaica Center - 8th Av - Houston St - Culver - Stillwell Av
F: 179 St - 6 Av - Euclid
V: 179 St - 6 Av - Chambers WTC
It would theoretically work, but I don't really see much point in doing it. It only saves a flight of stairs at Essex/Delancey anyway.
Your suggestion is nice because it also provides a 6th Ave to lower Manhattn route. For that reason alone it would be really nice to figure out a scheme for swithcing the 8th Ave and 6th Ave locasl at W 4th St. Unfortunately, think what it means to the masses coming into Jay St from both Culver and Fulton Lines.
First of all, your F trains are extremely empty all the way from Euclid because you have twice as many as you formerly had Cs (you could switch V and F to fix that problem, but then you have another problem). And now at Jay St, the services are unbalanced. Under the current arrangement, every train at Jay goes to one of the 2 most desirable destinations, 6th Ave or lower Manhattan. 8th Ave has a much lower density of office buildings.
Under your arrangement, nobody wants to take the E, because it goes neither to lower Manhattan nor to 6th Ave.
You wouldn't have to switch the E and F. Just the C and V. (then the E or V would go to Euclid.)
That would cause problems with merges south of West 4th St. The tracks could handle it. The signal system allegedly couldn't
And even if the signal system could handle it, it's just a bad idea to do any more mixing and matching than you have to. Any time you move some of the trains off one line onto another when both lines are near capacity, you get delays, simply because if the trains are 30 seconds off schedule someone ends up waiting for someone else, thus putting more trains off schedule.
Under your arrangement, nobody wants to take the E, because it goes neither to lower Manhattan nor to 6th Ave.
Which is partly why the whole point of my post was that it was an inconvenient and bad idea.
The thing about there being 18 F trains instead of 9 C trains could be solved quite easily, in a way that Sea Beach Fred would love...
F (9 tph) : 179 St - Queens Express - 63rd St - 6 Av - Euclid
Q : Astoria - 60th St - Broadway Local - Brighton Local - Stillwell
N : 179 St - Queens Express - 63rd St - Broadway Express - Sea Beach - Stillwell
The main disadvantages I see of this are the fragmentation of the Queens Express and the complete unnecessity of the whole idea. The supposed disadvantage of this is direct Brighton Line service to Downtown, which would probably cause more whinging than it's worth - hell, there would be a D express over the Bridge!
F (9 tph) : 179 St - Queens Express - 63rd St - 6 Av - Euclid
What would run on the Culver line to CI if the F went to Euclid?
What would run on the Culver line to CI if the F went to Euclid?
Sorry, I didn't make it clear that this was a subset of the previously mentioned hypothetical situation to give service from the BMT Broadway El to Midtown.
It would be the E.
C: BPB - 8th Av - Houston St - Willy B - Jamaica Center
E: Jamaica Center - 8th Av - Houston St - Culver - Stillwell Av
F: (9tph) 179 St - Queens Express - 63rd St - 6 Av - Euclid
N: 179 St - Queens Express - 63rd St - Broadway Express - Sea Beach - Stillwell
Q: Astoria - 60th St - Broadway Local - Brighton Local - Stillwell
V: 179 St - 6 Av - Chambers WTC
That would be strange seeing the Culver el as blue instead of orange. The Fulton line would be orange and blue.
Too bad the 7 can't be orange and blue.:-)
That would be strange seeing the Culver el as blue instead of orange. The Fulton line would be orange and blue.
Kinda pretty, huh?
(The V simply CAN'T go over the Willy B, despite it being a nice idea. The V uses 75 ft cars and 600 ft trains. 75 ft cars cannot get round some of the curves on the Eastern Division without hitting eachother in passing. Also, most of the platforms aren't long enough. With congestion on Queens Boulevard as it is, a 480 ft train would be a joke - that is it would be if it were funny. So, unfortunately, no V across the Willy B.)
Oh, yes it can. The TA chose to put 75 foot cars on that route, but it doesn't have to. We've got 60 foot cars on the F now. Those can go over to the V.
As for the trains, the TA could increase their number from 10 to 12, thus offsetting the shorter length -- the J and Z have 12 cars per hour right now. The current 600 foot cars at 10 trains per hour are the equivalent of 100 sixty foot cars per hour. But 12 trains per hour with 480 foot trains would be the equivalent of 96 sixty foot cars per hour. You might need a couple of extra crews for few hours per day, but with two terminals instead of four, you might not.
You might need a couple of extra crews for few hours per day, but with two terminals instead of four, you might not.
And a little extra capacity to reverse at Forest Hills. The Queens Boulevard Local is meant to be maxed out for that reason. Now that really does suck. At this rate it'd be easier to lengthen all the platforms on the Broadway El.
If you want a quicker way from the Eastern Divison to Queens Boulevard, you could extend the M from Met to Forest Hills. It doesn't have to be on the tracks of the EFRV, it probably shouldn't. That terminal could be under it or possibly parallel with a walkover. If it makes the M route too long, and it probably does, switch it with the J/Z. Sure it wouldn't be the fastest way to lower Manhattan, but it would service some areas that have no subway service now and would add an option to reduce crowding.
Would there be enough room to extend the M along the New York Connecting Railroad?
On the other hand, there's now a whole new generation of riders who have no recollection of the graffiti-covered trains that so symbolized the system for years. You certainly can consider that progress.
I'm sure that there are a great many subway riders who aren't even aware that the "N" train has gone over the Manhattan Bridge in the past.
#3 West End Jeff
Then there are those of us who remember vivdly when it did.
You sound like one of those people who remember the old "N" train.
#3 West End Jeff
I sure do.
The very first subway train I ever rode on was an N of shiny, brand-spanking new R-32s. Then when we moved to Jersey and I became a regular Saturday commuter, we'd bail from the BMT standards on the Canarsie at Union Square and transfer to the Broadway line for a nice, speedy express sprint to 34th St. or Times Square on an N or, as I put it then, "a BMT train with letter markings up front". I remember the first time we did just that. A T train was leaving just as we reached the platform. An N train appeared in the distance after it rounded that jog just north of 8th St and pulled in a minute or so later. Once we were aboard and got going, we wound up dusting a pre-Chrystie St. QB train at one point. Those R-32s made it look so easy. When we got home, I sprinted back and forth along the upstairs hallway, passing a banister which overlooked the living room. The vertical bannister rods resembled the I-beams, and I pretended I was on that N train as it skipped 23rd and 28th Streets.
A funny thing, although I still vivdly remember the green backlit "57th St" signs and the "Do all minors dig Mikly Way?" ad on that very first N train on July 21, 1965, I have no recollection of skipping any local stops, even though we ran express and over the bridge (north side). Perhaps I was staring at the blue doors too intently. All I know is that it was the beginning of a love affair which has lasted to this day.
The blue doors added a nice touch to the R-32s when they had them.
#3 West End Jeff
The blue doors also looked pretty sharp on the R40's and R42's too.
I would agree with you there from the pictures I saw of the R-40s and R-42s before the GOH program.
#3 West End Jeff
Originally only the door interiors were light blue on the R-40s (both kinds) and R-42s. Exteriors were unpainted stainless steel. On the R-42s, storm door exteriors were dark blue on the A end and unpainted on the B end. If you watch the chase sequence in The French Connection and look quickly, you'll see this.
I never knew that, because I wasn't around when they were new. But I do remember in the mid 80's when the graffiti was first being removed from trains, all the doors were dark blue interior and exterior on the R40's and R42's. I think they may have been painted orange (with graffiti) for a while also. But I am 100% sure about the dark blue.
That was the last painting before overhaul. They had the orange before, but during the graffiti removal, they went to a dark blue door.
Yes, I remember the dark blue on the inside and outside as well. The R-32s got this treatment as well. It was great to see dark blue doors on the outside again, but I missed the original light blue shade on the interiors.
I first rode the subway in 1987. I remember transfering at Times Square from the (1) to the (S), and I saw along the way signs for the (B)(D)(N)(Q)(R). I remember thinking "That's a lot of trains for one line!" I still associate those letters with each other in my mind.
It's funny to me that many riders assciate the (Q) with Sixth Ave, but after all it was there for quite a few years now. It hung in there for a while without changing the color of many of its rollsigns. Well into the 1990's I would still see many Sixth Ave (Q) trains with yellow rollsigns.
:-) Andrew
I vaguely remember the Q on Broadway pre-MB in the early 80's. However for some reason I associate the Q as orange and the 63rd St connector to 21-Queensbridge. It's probably because it was the early 90's that I rode the subway the most. I had the most time back then, when I was in college.
The Broadway "Q" in the early-mid '80's was still the "QB" rush hour line. They were scarce back then!!!!! Tony
An even better one is the fact that most people forgot that the Manhattan Bridge was connected to the Broadway line. Some high schoolers acted suprised and wondered where they were on a Q train I rode from Dekalb to Canal on 7/23/01. They were probably infants when the south side was last open.
I recently came into posession of a rattan seat from an old trolley car - whole thing with seat cushion and reversible back!!. The frame is in excellent shape but the rattan upholstery is shot. Does anyone know any place that can re-upholster this thing - the furniture repair places I have contacted so far are only familiar with how to upholster rattan patio furniture and similar items. Any suggestions out there will be appreciated?
Try contacting one (or more) of the trolley museums with active restoration shops - Branford, Seashore, IRM, and Orange Empire (California) come to mind first, although I'm sure there are others with knowledge and expertise in this area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also check with the Baltimore Streetcar Museum (P.O. Box 4881, Baltimore, MD 21211). They have expertise of rebuilding rattan seats, including parts from scratch.
What you most likely have is a Brill "Winner" seat, which was a Brill standard supply item for standard streetcars. Brill also made the "Waylo" seat for Birneys and other one-man lightweights.
Didn't mean to slight you guys, Dan... just that I didn't remember any cars with rattan seats there so wasn't sure if they were up your alley, so to speak.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Consider yourself forgiven, but....
Let's see....
Rattan seats at BSM? 264 (Brownell, 1900), 3828 (Brill, 1902) and 4533 (Brill 1904\United 1924). All three have rebult/ re-covered rattan seats. Eventually 115 (Brill, 1904) will be returning to the restored ranks - with rattan seats.
4533 even has three Waylo seats rebuilt from seat frames we got from Shoreline. The Baltimore treatment of the standard Waylo wooden seating was rattan covered backs and cushions. (the 3 seats were lost when BTC coverted her to a rail bond tester in 1939.
Caught re-runs of the emmy award winning show HILL STREET BLUES this past week and had to ask where the show was taped. At the beginning of everyshow they pan across the Urban landscape with a shot of the subway system featuring an ELevated line that looks like it's in Beirut it's so bleak and blighted.
They never show the city's highrises! I think it's shot in Chicago. Parts of the precinct's surroundings are like a war zone, like the South Bronx back in 1982.
Just wondering!!
If memory serves, they deliberately used location footage from several cities in order NOT to be any one in particular. I remember seeing Almond Joys, CTA L, what looked like 125th on MN, and Chicago RTA/C&NW station. Sometimes shots from two different cities were used in a single show.
Almond Joys ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm dho!!
You might be right. That's why I was asking, we can never tell and they've done a real good job of hidding the city's identity.How many North American cities have EL's. This would narrow it down then we could look at the stock each system has to figure out what city the footage is taken from.
As for the precinct location in the war zone, does anybody know where ??
The exterior police station shots on Hill Street Blues were of the Maxwell Street Station, which at the time was just south of the University of Illinois Chicago campus. I believe that the station is now gone, and the site is now actually part of the campus.
-- Ed Sachs
If memory serves, they deliberately used location footage from several cities in order NOT to be any one in particular. I remember seeing Almond Joys, CTA L, what looked like 125th on MN, and Chicago RTA/C&NW station. Sometimes shots from two different cities were used in a single show.
Actually much of the exterior "B-roll" footage was shot in Chicago at various locations. All the live-action, however, was filmed on the streets of Los Angeles and in LA soundstages (I was there on vacation when the show was in production and found a HSB shoot in progress--even got a couple of autographs). I asked one of the production co-ordinators about the exteriors, and I said ow surprised I was that it was shot in LA. The did some filming in Chicago for some winter scenes, apparantly.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.1 Will be AVAILABLE this week!
Peter, thanks, this is really surprising information. Never would I have thought, outdoor shots were taken in in Los Angeles. I have never seen a PALM TREE in any shot during the show. As for the winter scenes, do you know for a fact they were shot in Chicago. The subway shots do look like the EL in Chicago and someone had mentioned the Almond Joys.
As for the precinct, do we know if this was L.A. or Chicago. Many opening shot would pan form a subway line to a squad car going through the urban decay and arriving to the precinct house. I'm still wondering where this was located. Anything outside the station house looked like a war zone.
Anybody have info!!
I was always under the impression that the city was an anonymous one but Chicago shots were extensively used especially in the title sequence. The police cars were dead ringers for Chicago's also.
There was at least one episode in which subway muggings were taking place and a decrepit entrance to a 'blue line' was featured, but that's all I recall as far as any actual subway filming.
One episode featured a mugging on a city bus. The bus had a rather crude sign on it, saying simply "Transit Authority." I don't remember much about its livery. A GM Fishbowl, possibly rented from a charter carrier like Gray Line with fake signage stuck on the sides.
That fishbowl was a Gray Line of Los Angeles bus....the shots were done in downtown LA, on Los Angeles & Fifth Streets, a block or so northof the old LA Greyhound station.
(I worked for LA Gray Line when they rented the bus.....)
Lucky guess for me...
Alot of the background police radio sound was from actual NYPD radios.
The exterior shots of the station house were supposedly the actual Maxwell Street Precinct in Chicago!
When that show ran from 1980-1984 it was my favorite show of the week. I never missed it. I always believed it was Chicago that was being portrayed and I said to myself YUK what a crappy place. I visited Chicago for the first time in 1998 and couldn't believe it. Not only was Chicago a nice looking city, clean and neat, but it was as friendly a city as I have ever been in. The people were just great. When I mentioned this to Chicagoans they were surprised to know that I was unaware of their hospitableness. The Chicago I visited bore no resemblance to the one portrayed on Hill Street Blues.
Between 1984 and 1998 is a good deal of time for a city. I wouldn't have been surprised at the changes...
BMTman
>>> I always believed it was Chicago that was being portrayed <<<
But the police uniforms did not look at all like Chicago uniforms. Because this was the first police show (unlike Dragnet and Adam 12) that portrayed some of the officers not always doing the right thing (Dennis Franz's first character was a good example) no particular city was identified. Although it was clear that it was a Northeastern urban city, big enough to have big city problems, they used exterior shots from several cities (often in the same show) to keep from identifying any one city.
Tom
I thought at the time it was the Chicago uniform because of the checkered hat.
Well again it could only be a handfull of cities! How many cities have elevated systems??
The footage they took at the start of the show had shots of urban blight that only major metropolitain areas would have. This did set the mood of the show and helped break new ground in TV for it's true form of what society was like in the ealy 80's.
Today, NYPD, LAW AND ORDER, THIRD WATCH, and you might recall a show from a couple of years ago that failed miserably BROOKLY SHOUTH, never recaptured the urban grit and blight that HILL STREET BLUES DID.
Good for you. I know I went to Chicago back in l997 and took the subway, did the loop downtown and as the third largest metropolitain area in the US, I thought Chicago's downtown core was the cleanest, nicest, and had one of the most spectacular skyline of any city I had seen!
No graffiti yet many homeless people hanging around. This seem to stop as soon as you hoped on the subway heading south and West.
Took the Green line HARLEM. Had to get off at Pulaski ave, as we had entered urban blight like I had never seen; not even in NYC Bronx or ENY. Leveled areas of urban landcapes shells of cars and whatever was standing was burnt and boarded up. This looked like the south bronx in l981. Around the United Center the housing projects all had the first five floors burnt out and boarded up. I had never seen shit like this before. It was very intimidating! The EL was a great spot for urban landcape pictures if you had the nerveto do it.
I did an experiment with one of my buddies after dark around 11:30 pm that night. Hailed a cab and told him Pulaski ave! The driver refused to take us on the grounds that he had been robbed at gunpoint severaltimes by gangs in that neck of the woods.
No doubt that this was 5 years ago and things do change but chicago for me was a city of contrasts. Thank god for mass transit and the EL, I got great pictures of real hardcore blight and didn't have to drive my car in this situation.
Are you sure! If so what area in Chicago is the precinct located? Chicago is one hell of a tough town. South Side and Madison ave. West side Chicago are sometimes uncharted territories!!
The green line to HARLEM/ LAKE stations goes through some of the most deplorable living conditions in all of the US and try going down the RED LINE over State street along the Dan Ryan Expressway, you'll get an eye full.
Great show! I once met the cast, crew, director and the late NBC programming chief Brandon Tartikoff at UCLA at a seminar.
Aerial shots were of Chicago (Regional Transportation Authority trains were evident in certain opening scenes). The police cars featured Chicago PD livery with "Chicago" replaced by "Metro."
Thanks for all the info. Even in today's standards of television production, this show would beat out many shows airing today.
Either it was that good, or stuff today is that crap!!!
http://www.politicsny.com/images/gbcartoonsmall.jpg
The main site is http://www.politicsny.com/
So far as I'm concerned, Shrub and the rest of the neo-Hooverite Republicans really do want to 9/11 Social Security, but drawing a cartoon showing this explicitly is in bad taste.
That was in very bad taste.
BTW - They already have posted an apology.
Trivial political commentary for trivial minds.
Unprecedently, on a nice Saturday afternoon, from one of the NJT workers I heard on the train that a "double-decker CONRAIL" train west of Newark pulled down a significant amount of wire which caused huge delays in passenger travel westbound.
Coincidentally, my dad and I went railfanning that evening on the Subway and came to Penn Sta. to take the 11:41p train back home.
Trains that left at or after 5:32p were turned back to NYP because of power line failure after Elizabeth because of the downed wires.
We arrived Penn at 11:30p and there was no word of this train. We (and a number of other passengers) waited for the 12:42a train, to find out that this train and the 12:37a Long Branch train were CANCELED due to lack of inbound crew and equipment.
We waited for the 1:41a, which was also DELAYED as a result. We started boarding around 2:00a and didn't depart well into 10-15 minutes after.
A LOT OF STOP and GO traffic at Newark and Elizabeth. We waited for 2 eastbound AMTRAK trains to pass the NJCL and our train at Elizabeth, to find out that the trains were rather far away, but there was another 2 trying to get in while we left.
The damaged train was still between Elizabeth and Linden, with really no activity going on (by now it's around past 3am.)
We finally arrived at Metuchen at 4:39a. Through the midst of some passengers grumbling and cursing about what went on, I thought it was a REALLY long stall.
If anybody knows more about this incident, please feel free to post responses or answers.
Thank You.
even today, my 2:32 train out of Penn Station was delayed for about 10-15 minutes between North Elizabeth and Elizabeth because it lost power. It was quite annoying because the connecting Septa train pulled out of the station just as we were on the platform waiting to get into it, and therefore I got into Philly an hour and a 20 minutes late.
even today, my 2:32 train out of Penn Station was delayed for about 10-15 minutes between North Elizabeth and Elizabeth because it lost power.
Did the train actually "shut off"?
even today, my 2:32 train out of Penn Station was delayed for about 10-15 minutes between North Elizabeth and Elizabeth because it lost power.
Did the train actually "shut off"?
It was quite annoying because the connecting Septa train pulled out of the station just as we were on the platform waiting to get into it,
NJT vowed to hold its connection with the Raritan Valley line train when our 1:41a train was delayed AT LEAST 30 minutes. considering that we boarded at 2:00a, and didn't move until a good 10-15 minutes after.
During long stops at Newark and Elizabeth, the conductors allowed passengers to stretch outside the train, but as he said:
"If you're out, you're out. If you're in, you're in. As soon as we get the Go signal, we will start moving".
Our train was 2 hrs. and 20 minutes late once it got out of the affected area through Metropark.
Imagine if this happened during PM rush. Unimaginable.
Yes, the train shut off for about 10-15 minutes (this was 2:32 PM on Sunday, Sunday afternoon). The train ended up being late enough to just miss the Septa connection at Trenton, so I got into Philly an hour and 20 minutes late. I am not talking about the Raritan Valley Connection, I connected to Septa at Trenton to head into Philly. Septa said they would hold the train, but pulled off just as we were ready to board.
Were the emergency lights on?
I was on the 532. First sign of impending treouble was pulling to the West end of Newark Penn instead of the usual center of the platform and hearing the conductor annoucne that the Long Branch train would be coming in behind us. We then sat at Penn for 5-10 minutes before moving to the Airport where we sat another 5-10 minmurtes before moving West of the Airport where we sat 15 minutes before we were told we are going back to NY.
Arriving back at Penn the scene was a mob with walls of people everywhere and the big board showing delayed next to every train. Also at NY Penn- the old departure board is now a variable message board (digital).
At the exact time that you were sitting at Track 4 in Newark I was on Track 5 loading my Raritan passengers, trying to hear what was happening on the radio. They weren't disclosing anything, one of the ticket collectors used his cell phone to call an engineer he knew on the Corridor, who somehow knew about the wires ripping down at the B&O bridge. "Supervision" would not let us move until that Long Branch train that was behind you was able to get into the station, and the connecting passengers boarded our train. Luckily, we left ONLY 17 minutes late.
My public compliments for NJT's job swell done. Sure it was not perfect, but this incident was the best handled to date. And I did e-mail NJT with some suggestions for future disruptions.
There's a major thread with two newspaper articles on New Jersey Railfan Forum.
I got some photographs of marginal quality (overcast sky, through tinted glass from moving train) of the area on Sunday morning on my way to the Other Side of the Tracks A, 5, and 2 subway trip.
catenary work
the culprit?
downed wires
Thanks a lot for those photos.
What interests me is that:
1) Why doesn't the cargo get electrocuted?
2) Did the engineer know the overhead clearance of where he was driving the train through?
3) What exactly happens that causes the wires to come down if something is too high?
4) What train was it?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Thanks a lot for those photos.
What interests me is that:
1) Why doesn't the cargo get electrocuted?
2) Did the engineer know the overhead clearance of where he was driving the train through?
3) What exactly happens that causes the wires to come down if something is too high?
4) What train was it?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
2. Probably not.
3. The container hits the thingy that holds up the catenary and knocks it down; the wires come down with it.
4. See very long thread on New Jersey Railfan Forum.
Here is a revised hypothetical routing plan that I think could work when the Manhattan Bridge fully reopens. This plan assumes that the MTA orders enough R-143's, a repaired Culver Tower and the replacement of one northbound local to express switch on the Culver south of Kings Hwy. Rush Hours are weekdays 6:30-9:30 AM and 3:30-8 PM. Late nights are 12 AM-6AM. If a subway line is not mentioned, then I'm proposing no service change to that line:
A: Operates between 207 Street and Far Rockaway only. A runs via 8 Ave/Central Park Express and Fulton Express. The A operates at all times. Late nights, A runs local between 168 and Euclid. This route is basically today's A to Far Rockaway. Rush hours some A trains operate between 207 Street and Rockaway Park (AM rush to Manhattan, PM rush from Manhattan).
B: Operates between 168 Street and Coney Island. B runs via Central Park West Local, 6 Ave Express and West End Express. In Brooklyn, B runs express between Pacific and 36. It also skips DeKalb. Rush hours, B runs express between 9th Ave and Bay Pkwy to Manhattan (AM rush) and from Manhattan (PM rush). Other times B makes all stops south of 9th Ave. Operates all times except late nights, when it would be a shuttle between 36 and CI.
C: Operates between Bedford Park Blvd and Lefferts Blvd via Concourse Local, 8th Ave/Central Park Express and Fulton Express. C runs express from 145 Street to Euclid Ave. Operates all times except nights, when it would be a shuttle between Lefferts Blvd and Euclid Ave. The C would have 12 minute headways at best during non-rush hours.
D: Operates between 205 Street and Coney Island via Concourse Express, 6th Ave/Central Park Express and Brighton Local. D runs express between Fordham Rd and 145th Street to Manhattan (AM rush), from Manhattan (PM rush). Other times local in the Bronx. D operates at all times. Late nights D runs local from 145-59 Street and express between 34 and West 4th.
E: Operates between Jamaica Center and WTC. Only difference from current route; E express between 71 Ave and Queens Plaza. It runs local east of 71 Ave. Late nights, E makes all stops in Queens.
F: Operates between 179 Street and Coney Island only. F runs via Hillside Local, Queens Blvd Express, 63rd Street, 6th Ave Local and Culver Express. In Queens, F is express between 71 Ave and 21 St-Queensbridge. In Brooklyn F express between Bergen St and Church Av. Rush hours, F express between Church Av and Kings Hwy to Manhattan (AM rush) and from Manhattan (PM rush). Late nights, F makes all stops between 179 Street and Coney Island.
G: Operates between Court Square and Church Ave at all times via Crosstown Local. I would like to see the return of six car trains, if possible.
J: Operates between Jamaica Center and Broad Street at all times. J would no longer terminate at Chambers.
K: Operates between 168 Street and Euclid Ave. K runs via 8th Av/Central Park West Local and Fulton Local. Operates all times except nights. This is today's C route.
M: Operates between Metropolitan Ave and Broad Street via Nassau and Myrtle Local. Rush hours, M extended to Coney Island via Brighton Local. M operates at all times except late nights, when it's a shuttle between Metropolitan and Myrtle.
N: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island via Astoria Local, Broadway Express and Sea Beach Express. N operates at all times. N runs express between 57 and Canal in Manhattan, runs over the MB, skips DeKalb then proceeds express between Pacific and 59th Street Brooklyn. N then makes all stops on the Sea Beach line. Late nights N runs local (via Montague tunnel) between 57 Street Manhattan and 59 Street Brooklyn.
*A related bus service change: S53 and S79 bus routes extended northward up 4 Ave in Brooklyn from 4 Ave-86 Street to 4 Ave-59 Street. The two SI buses would make no stops between 86th and 59th Streets, terminating at 4 Ave-59 Street.
Q: Operates between 179 Street and Brighton Beach from 6 AM-10 PM weekdays and from 9 AM-10 PM weekends. Q runs via Hillside Express, Queens Blvd Express, 63rd Street, Broadway Express and Brighton Express.
V: Operates between 71 Av and Church Avenue. V runs via Queens Blvd Local, 53rd Street, 6th Ave Local and Culver Local. V operates at all times except late nights. Rush hours, V extended to Kings Hwy making local stops between Church and Kings Hwy.
W: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and 9th Ave, Brooklyn. W runs via Astoria Local, Broadway Local, Montague Tunnel and 4th Ave/West End Local. Rush hours, W extended to Bay Pkwy, making local stops between 9th Ave and Bay Pkwy. W operates weekdays 6 AM-8 PM.
Running the F and V on the Culver and the B and W on the West End were originally David G's ideas, which I thought were great ideas. Weekend headways would be either 12 or 15 minutes depending on the line, except for the R (which would have 8 minute headways), the 4 and 5 (which would have 10 minute headways) and the 1 and 6 lines (which would have 6 minute headways). Passengers for the most part would still see their train running on weekends. They'll just have to wait a little while longer.
I thank everyone for their input on this and welcome more. My promise to not go on the defensive still stands.
Perhaps M should go to Bay Ridge instead during rush hours. It wouldn't make sense for a third train on a Brighton Line that is already well-served under your plan. The D and the Q are already sufficient, and it would make more sense to extend the Q to Stillwell Avenue instead of the M.
I know Fred would love this, but the M could run on Sea Beach local, and free up the N as the express on the SB.
But that would leave the Bay Ridge branch with only one line, compared to West End, Sea Beach, Culver and Brighton. I still stand by my conviction of returning the Q to 6th Ave, switching the V to Broadway and running the G as local on Culver. not that anyone would agree, but that's just a little pipe dream of mine...
Anyway, just my two cents.
-John
The only problem with is with the G running the local on the Culver. It would work great until Church because there are 4 tracks after that there are only 3 tracks, unlike the brighton where there are four tracks, unless the F would run express in the peak direction only.
My suggestion for too many trains on the Culver Line is to build crossovers west of Hoyt Schermerhorn and send the G into Manhattan as the C. Send a portion of E trains to Euclid to replace the C there. The Fulton St tunnels can handle the extra trains.
I don't know. From what I've observed, the most train routes you could run on a single track is three. I've already got three trains running through the Cranberry Tunnel (A, C, K). Running the G might be too much for it.
You can run any number of services as long as they add up to no more than 30 tph (on any reasonably signaled track). The current levels are:
A (Lefferts, Far Rockaway,and Rockaway Park): 15-17 (not exactly sure if it's 7, 7, and 3 or 6, 6, and 3)
G: 5 or 6
Euclid local: 6
You can call this 5 separate services if you want. But none of them go very frequently, so it still adds up to 30 tph or less.
My fault, you wanted to send the G as the C. I missed out on that. If you did that, what train would you have go to Lefferts and would it be an express or local?
Ignore my other posting.
My suggestion for the evening rush is:
6 or 7 tph to Lefferts (6 probably suffices since the G is offloading traffic that currently rides the A to Hoyt-Schermerhorn). These orignate at 168th or 207th. I would suggest Brooklyn express in rush hours.
Ditto 6 or 7 to Far Rockaway
2.5 or 3 to Rockaway Park
6 tph connecting the current C line with the current G
6 tph of E trains no longer terminate at WTC but go to Euclid instead. Extend to Lefferts off-rush hours so that all As can go to Far Rockaway (currently off-rush Lefferts and Far Rockaway have a minimal service of 3 tph!!!)
Now, off-rush, there aren't enough trains for the WTC terminal since the Es go to Lefferts. One idea might be to run the V to WTC off-rush, when the switching south of W 4th wouldn't be a problem.
Total through the Fulton St tunnels < 30 tph.
Intersting plan. My problems with your plan is two-fold. First, you would have a very unusual situation where not only would the same train return to the same borough, but where its two terminals (Jamaica Center and Lefferts Blvd) would only be a couple of miles from each other. Second, your routes are a little complicated, with both the A and the E having multiple terminals during the same hours. If you look at my plan, only the A would have that problem and it's only during rush hours (really PM rush, because the Rockaway Park service would operate in peak direction only). Still, it's an interesting plan.
In terms of trains having multiple terminals, that's easily remedied by handing out more letters.
Those current E trains that would now go to Brooklyn could be called C trains. As another post has suggested, the A trains that go to Lefferts could be called Ks and those that go to Rockaway Park could be called Hs.
Let me see if I've got you on this one. You would have a C train that would run from Queens to Queens and share a terminal with the E. The A and the K would be exactly the same except one goes to Lefferts while the other to Far Rock. The H would be the rarely seen train to Rockaway Park. If I understand you correctly, Fulton Street would have 4 different trains running and the Cranberry Tunnel would see 5 routes. Heck, your 8th Ave line would have a record SIX routes (A, C, E, G, H and K). I think I'm gonna need aspirin! I'll probably stick to my original 8th Ave alignment (A, C, E, K).
It would not be too mauch of an effort to call the Lefferts A's, K's. It would not need any new trains, just the letter K. it would cause alot less confusion. It's dumb to have the A with so many terminals.
Here's the proposal in detail(ignore late nights for now: basically A, E, F, and shuttles):
8th Ave equivalent of current A service:
A: 207th to Far Rockaway all times, Brooklyn express, 6 tph
K: 207th to Lefferts rush hours only 6 tph, Brooklyn express
H: 57th to Rockaway Park, 5 train outbound in evening rush, 5 inbound in morning
8th Ave equivalent of current E service:
C: rush hours only Jamaica Center to Euclid 6 tph
E: Jamaica Center to WTC, all times, 6-9 tph
8th Ave equivalent of former C service:
G: 168th to Hoyt Schermerhorn to Continental, all times, 5-6 tph. Except terminates at Court Square in rush hour. Requires construction of crossover west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
6th Ave local:
F: as currently, but running express Jay St to Church Ave
V: rush hours only 10 tph Continental to Church Ave (current V, extended)
U: non-rush only, 6 tph Queens Plaza to W 4th to Bway Nassau to Lefferts, Brooklyn Local. If you look at the track map you can see that this train, using the 53rd St tunnel, can easily turn at QP while a G would have more trouble.
I don't really care whether the "A" has 3 letters or one; eventually the customers will get used to it while initially it'll be a mess. Ditto for all I care the "U" can be the V and the V can be the .
Benefits:
- G goes to Manhattan
- More service to Far Rockaway and Lefferts in non-rush
- direct train (at least in non-rush hours) from 6th Ave to Lower Manhattan
- More rush hour service on Culver Line
Costs/diadvantages:
- Some more rolling stock (not much)
- Some minor new construction
- Lefferts loses its express service in non-rush hours
- Complicated management of rolling stock: trains have to switch routes when they transition from rush to non-rush.
C: rush hours only Jamaica Center to Euclid 6 tph
Do you mean JC Jamaica Line via Chrystie or JC Queens Blvd?
via QB, 8th Ave, Bway Nassau
I still would like to reintroduce double letters and abandon single letters as we're rather running out of them.
I quite like the idea of:
AF - Far Rockaway
AL - Lefferts
AP - Rockaway Park
but where its two terminals (Jamaica Center and Lefferts Blvd) would only be a couple of miles from each other
That's funny because a couple of months ago there was a thread "Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center" where in theory you could have a route from Jamaica Center upper level through Queens Blvd, 6th or 8th Avenue, Chrystie Street, Willy B, Jamaica line to Jamaica Center lower level. Funny Question: WHich is the northern terminal JC upper or JC lower!
The upper, because it is on the north end of the north-south portion of the line in Manhattan
Anyway, up in north on the map ;)
You can modify the service slightly...
Weekday Service as follows
A - From 207th St. Central Park Express, 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Exp. (Express from 80th St. - Broad Channel [7am-11am and 3pm-7pm]) To Far Rockaway
E - From Parsons/Archer. Queens Blvd Exp., 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Exp. To Lefferts Blvd
C - From 168th Street Central Park Local, 8th Ave Local, Fulton St. Lcl. - To Rockaway Park Weekdays
K - From 207th Street - To World Trade Center Central Park/8th Ave Lcl.
Weekend Service
A - From 207th St 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Local. To Far Rockaway.
C - From Euclid Ave. - To Rockaway Park Weekends
E - From Parsons/Archer. Queens Blvd Exp., 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Exp. To Lefferts Blvd - All Times
K - From 207th Street - To World Trade Center Central Park/8th Ave Lcl.
Frank D
This is an amazing amount of service. Assuming the current 15 tph on the E and 6 tph pn every other line mentioned:
- Rush hour Fulton St service goes up from 21 tph to 27 (6 A, 6 C, 15 E).
- Weekend/mid-day service goes up from 12 tph to 20 (6 A, 6 C, 8 E).
This would be great service, but if the TA provided that level of service on all lines the costs would be really high.
You have only one train (R) serving 45th and 53rd Sts. This would be a problem in non-rush hours. To solve it, the Sea Beach should be express in Brooklyn and run via the Manhattan Bridge M-F 7 AM to 8 PM. It should make those two local stops mid-day. All other times, local all the way and in the tunnel.
I've rode through the 36-59 stretch during non-rush hours on a couple of occasions. The R seemed to be handling those stations pretty well by itself. Heck, it handles those stations well during rush hours by itself, or have I missed something? Besides, I don't think there is a local to express (and vice-versa) switch at 36th that would enable the N to run local south of 36. Of course, I'm not absolutely sure about that.
Well it does at least get onto the bridge for most of the day. I suppose that is better than nothing. How about putting one of the two Brightons in the tunnel as well. I call that fair and balanced.
No Fred, the Brighton local carries more passengers than the Sea Beach. And besides, you don't want your train going to the Bronx, do you? The D will be back, and it will most likely be the Brighton Local.
Make the D the express, the Q the local and send the Q through the tunnel - that way Fred's happy and the N doesn't go to the Bronx!
I don't know about that one. Brighton riders would crowd the D and avoid the Q like it had chicken pox. Q Brightliner pointed that out to me before, and he was absolutely right.
Doesn't anyone want to go to downtown?
Before the WTC attack, midtown had about 400 million square feet of office space and downtown had 80 million (plus maybe another 20 million that the real estate agents don't count because it's government-owned).
The WTC attack has destroyed 12 million square feet and damaged or reduced the occupancy on additional footage.
So yes, people want to go downtown, but only 20-25% as many as want to go to midtown.
Okay, so one in five people (20%) want to go downtown. One in three tracks (33%) go to downtown. That means that, at full capacity, two people in fifteen (13%) have to go to downtown unnecessarily. So the question is which 13%? Following the example of the F/V where the express takes the less popular route in order to balance out ridership, perhaps the best solution would be a (D) Brighton Local via Bridge and a (Q) Brighton Express via Tunnel.
And where old chap does the Sea Beach come into this. Do you keep a local and in the Montague tunnel or do you finally liberate her from that rat infested hole and put her back on the bridge where she belongs. I await your answer. Make it good.
If I really wanted to annoy you I'd say it should be a shuttle from 59th to 86th Sts. (N) over the bridge is a must, then Broadway Express, then I quite like the idea of a connector after 57th St to the CPW Express, terminating at 168 St Washington Heights.
I've always liked the Brits so why would you want to annoy me? I dig your plan. Maybe you could get a job with the TA. If we infiltrate that gang we could the desired changes all of us want.
I've always liked the Brits so why would you want to annoy me?
If you're ever in Birmingham (which for some reason no-one in America's heard of despite it being the second largest city in the UK), I'll buy you a pint! I certainly wouldn't want to annoy you!
Maybe I should mention my BIG plan for the (A) and (N) express. As well as a connection from the Broadway Express to the CPW Express, the line should be extended under Riverdale Avenue, perhaps as far as Ashburton Avenue. The (N) would then serve 4 counties, and the (A) 5!
Maybe you could get a job with the TA.
Hmmmmm... I probably could get the job, but whether I'd be able to do anything productive with it in the current political climate is another matter. It's all very well wanting to make the Broadway Express more useful / build Jamaica Line Express Tracks / restore the Myrtle El / dig a 6 mile tunnel under NY Harbor, but even if one were the boss of the TA or even Mayor, I don't believe the power's there to undo fifty years of neglect and unfavourable economics.
"Okay, so one in five people (20%) want to go downtown. One in three tracks (33%) go to downtown. That means that, at full capacity, two people in fifteen (13%) have to go to downtown unnecessarily."
This will not be a problem in 2004. You won't need 100% utilization of the 3 tracks. Right now you have about 50 tph from Dekalb to Manhattan on 2 tracks, 26 on the bridge and 24 in the tunnel.
Once there are 3 tracks you can have 20+ tph on each bridge track and 12 in the tunnel.
On weekends, the way I would see it is that the Q and N should run express over the bridge, and the R should be the only train local and in the tunnel. Being that it is the only weekend QB local into Manhattan, the only Broadway local, and the only 4th avenue local, I would increase the amount of service on the R train on weekends so that it can handle the load (a load similar to that of trains such as the 1, F, and 6, which are the only local on most of their routes). 15 tph?
Perhaps 10 tph at best would be enough. The only serious load that I see the R getting on weekends is between Canal and 42nd Street.
"Perhaps 10 tph at best would be enough. The only serious load that I see the R getting on weekends is between Canal and 42nd Street."
Might be better overall to have the R be 6-8 tph on weekends and have another 6-8 tph service (called "W" by some postings here) from Whitehall to 57th. About the same cost and more service where it really gets used, namely in Manhattan.
Late nights, what operates on the A line north of 168?
The A itself. It would make all stops between 207 Street and Far Rockaway.
What about H? Is it possible to run H as Rockaway Park Shuttle between Broad Channel and Rockaway Park?
The Rockaway Shuttle would remain unchanged. It would still run between Broad Channel and Rockaway Park 24/7. I believe it's still possible to change the route letter of the Rockaway Shuttle from "S" to "H" but I'm not entirely sure. It sounds like you want to rename the Rockaway S train, which I can agree with. There are now 4 different S trains out there.
I don't understand why they don't call the S the H. That's what it was in the late 80's, early 90's. But then again that was R10's and they probably had an H sign. I don't know if the fleet they are using has H's. By the way, is the S blue on the shuttle?
That's the odd thing about it. On the train itself the S is a dark grey, but on the map it's blue; go figure. The Rockaway Shuttle doesn't go up Eighth Avenue so it should be grey on the maps.
i love that Q express idea! thats another super express! get some fast equipment on that bad boy and change ur name to cerran cause its a wrap!!!! people would ride that with no problem! i know i would
Hmm...I had not even thought of it that way!!! This Q route WOULD probably be the closest thing Queens would have to a super-express.
Solution For Subway Plans for 2004
Broadway Lines
N Train:
[Midday/Rush Hours]- All Stops in Queens and Manhattan, Express Stops in Brooklyn from Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evening/Nights/Weekends]-All Stops Astoria, Queens through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q Train:
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening until 9:30PM] - Express Stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
R Train:
[All time except Night]- All Stops from 71 Ave Forest Hill, Queens; through Manahattan to 95 Street Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Tunnel).
[Nights]- All Stops from 57th Street/7th Ave Manhattan to 95 Street Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
W Train:
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30]-All stops from Astoria, Queens to 34th Street, Manahattan; Express stops from 34th Street, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge); All Stops from 36th Street to Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via N).
[Nights/Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
8th Avenue Lines
A Train: 8th Avenue Express
[All Time Except Nights]- Express Stops, Inwood/207 St, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Far Rockaway, Queens; Also serves Rockaway Park, Queens, during rush hours; other times transfer to H (Rockaway Park Shuttle) at Broad Channel, Queens.
[Nights]- All Stops in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens from 207 St Inwood, Manhattan to Far Rockaway, Queens; Transfer to C at Euclid Ave for Service to Lefferts Blvd.
C Train: 8th Avenue Local
[All time except Night] - All stops from 168 St Washington Height, Manhattan to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
[Night]- Shuttle Service between Euclid Ave, Brooklyn to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
E Train: 8th Avenue Local
[All Time Except Nights] - Express Stops in Queens and All local Stops in Manhattan, from Jamaica Center, Queens, to World Trade Center, Manhattan.
[Night] – All Stops from Jamaica Center, Queens to World Trade Center, Manhattan.
H Train: Rockaway Shuttle
[All Time]- Shuttle Service between Broad channel and Rockaway Park.
Rush Hour A service also serves Rockaway Park, Queens,
K Train: 8th Avenue Express
[Rush Hours/Middays]- Express Stops from Inwood/207 St, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Leffert Blvd, Queens. Other time use C
6th Avenue Lines
B Train: 6th Avenue
[All time except Night] – All Stops,145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; Express stops, 59 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx
[Night] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All Stops, Coney Island/Stillwell Ave to 36 Street
D Train: 6th Avenue
[All time except Rush Hours] – Express Stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
V Train: 6th Avenue
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening] – All Stops, 71 Ave/Forest Hills, Queens to Kings Highway, Brooklyn
Nassau Street Lines
J Train: Nassau Street Express
[Midday] – All Stops in Queens, express stops in Brooklyn and Manhattan, Jamaica Center, Queens to Broad Street, Manhattan ( J bypasses stations from Myrtle Ave to Marcy Ave, Brooklyn, on trips to Manhattan (AM hrs) and to Queens (PM hrs); use M for bypassed stations.
[Rush Hours] – Same as midday service, except JZ serve alternate stations (skip-stop service), Sutphin Blvd, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
[Evenings/Weekends/Week Nights] – All Stops, Jamaica Center, Queens, through Brooklyn, to Broad Street, Manhattan.
[Weekend Nights] – All Stops, Jamaica Center, Queens, through Brooklyn, to Chamber Street, Manhattan.
M Train: Nassau Street Local
[Midday] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to 9th Ave, Brooklyn
[Rush Hours and Evening until 9:30 PM] – stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Bay Pkwy, Brooklyn
Z Train: Nassau Street Express
Rush Hours extended to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn from Broad Street, Manhattan (local in Brooklyn between Court street and Bay Ridge), other time use J.
L Train : 14 Street – Carnarsie Local
Remain Normal
Looks mostly good. A few quibbles:
- No weekend or late evening Broadway express. Why does this line get no expresses on weekends when every other line has 1 or 2?
- You don't need C and K to Lefferts at the same time if they're each 6 tph.
- You've got 2 separate 4th Ave services (Z and M) going to Nassau St in the rush hour. One is enough.
- Does the traffic justify 2 Sea Beach services (presumably each at least 6 tph) all day long?
- Does the Culver line traffic justify two services as far out as Kings Highway? Seems more reasonable to terminate the V at Church Ave. Remember, both F and V have more tph (12-15 and 10) than most of the other Coney Island lines (R, N, M, W are typically 7 tph; Brighton should be 10 + 10 tph but they serve the vast area to their east while Culver serves a more limited area).
I'm still revising this plan. Don't worry U will hear from me again on this issue. By then, I will be able to answer all your question. :)
One more thing. Take a look at the track map for the Coney Island area (Brooklyn 3). The switches at Kings Highway on the F are not properly arranged for turning around more than a handful of trains.
What happened to the F Line?
I'm still revising the plan. The New version of the plan with correction will be posted later.
How Bout this:
(A)- Alternating service Between Far Rock and Rock Park
(C)- 168th st - Lefferts VIA LOCAL(Rush hours, the train will skip the Quees elevated stops to Rockaway Blvd, Including Rock. Blvd.
(E)- Jamaica Center. Express In Queens All times. Rush Hours- some express in Manhattan (AM- to WTC, PM- to queens)
(G)- Crosstown Local - Church Ave to Queensboro plaza (all times.)Rush hours, to Ave. X
(F)- Culver local. All times- Express from Church to Smith (or whatever the last express stop underground is) Rush hours- Brooklyn stops before Church- Neptune, Ave. X., Kings Hwy., Church Ave.
(D)- Brighton Local/Express- Skip-stop with (Q) (local to Kings Hwy., Express to Prospect Park. Peak express to Bronx. To Coney Island
(Q)- Broadway Express, Brighton Local/Express. (Weekdays only)Express to Kings Hwy. Local after that. Other times,use (D). To Coney Island
(B)- Coney Island- Bedfod Park Blvd. All times except late nights. Express in Brooklyn, Local North of 59th st. peak express Bay Pkwy- 9th Ave (similar to <7> service)
(W)- Broadway Express. Bay Pkwy.- Astoria. Weekdays only. Local in Brooklyn express in Astoria
(R)- Broadway Local. Same service
(N)- Broadway "Limited" (after Pacific Ave., Goes over bridge. After Canal st, (N) switches to Local track ) Weekdays only.
(M)- Brighton Local. To Brighton Beach
Summary:
Bridge Routes - North Side (6 Ave): B,D
South side Q,N,W
Just a start:
- Too much service to Rock Park and too poor to Lefferts in rush hour. Lefferts is a much busier place.
- G as Culver local has been tried and has failed. People want a local to Manhattan, not Queens.
- Why a Brighton skip stop service when you have 4 tracks?
- Various places have no service at all, like Astoria on weekends and Culver Line non-express stops between Church and Kings Highway.
<>
Simple. It takes way too long for a local train to make all those stops. Use the Crossovers south of Kings Highway to switch Local- express, and vice-versa
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when did I say there will be no service? You can have the (N) to astoria ALL TIMES, and non- rush hours will have 2 trains on Kings- Church!
"when did I say there will be no service? You can have the (N) to astoria ALL TIMES"
OK. But here's what you said:
(N)- Broadway "Limited" (after Pacific Ave., Goes over bridge. After Canal st, (N) switches to Local track ) Weekdays only.
I guess "weekdays only" applied only to the "limited" nature.
I still think you're shortchanging the Culver local stops and Lefferts.
I did mean the "limited" applies to weekdays.
Also, The (C) train I intend to go to lefferts 24/7. With 6-8 tph, thats not so bad.
(N)- Broadway "Limited"
That sounds like a fancy train for the subway!
Hey, what are you guys trying to do to my train, make it a sissy mary and effeminate train? Come on guys, watch where you tread.
What I meant by that was that the train uses da bridge, but is still a local after Canal st. It's not a local, but not an express. It's a "limited" (kinda like the Q53)
You are lucky they run the Sea Beach at all.
It's still running? Hell, when I was last at Stillwell and asked about the SeaBits, they said "not any more ..." :)
Hey Selkirk, old buddy, have you gotten yourself a shovel and a violin for your guests when they visit you? They'll need it if what you're dispensing on this site is of any indication. BTW, coming down in October to meet your buddy Unca Fred?
I'm hoping to get there - meeting you would be a genuine hoot. And I'll even bring the frontloader ... a shovel just don't cut it here this time of year. Moo. :)
That away. Boy I can't wait. I wish these eight months would just whiz by. On second thought, I take that back. These YEARS have been whizzing by a little too fast for me, and on that score I think I have some good company on Subtalk.
If Kevin were to join us....man oh man - women and children off the streets! Between the neener-neeners, mmmmooooooos, Brighton-Sea Beach, Bronx-Brooklyn, and Yankee-Brooklyn Dodger debates, not to mention the other antics of the Bob and Fred Show, it'll be a miracle if the cops aren't called out to restore some semblance of order on the subway.:-) The ultimate would be for all of us to wave and shout, "HI!!" as our slant R-40 diamond Q dusts one or more circle Qs on the Brighton.
Just for the record buddy, don't think you're going to sit by and play host or go along for the ride. I expect you to contribute to the fun by doing your thing as well. We are all in this together and if you can get a few laughs out of me, so much the better. But no bystanding. OK?
We may even take the A to Far Rockaway
Actually, I've never ridden out to Rockaway Park, so maybe we could work that in as well. IMHO the showpiece segment of the A is the CPW express run. It's no longer a dash the way it was with the R-10s, though.
I happen to like both the Brighton and Sea Beach lines, so I'm taking a middle path (track?) there. Never fear, though - I'll put in my two cents' worth.:-) I can always plug the A.
Note to Fred ... bring an IND whipping post, Steve and I will provide the "color" to the narrations ... damned BMT. :)
Oh God, here we go again. Why don't you just enter each day with your theme song----Home of the Strange
Home, home of the strange,
where the rats and other verrmin play
where always is heard a discouraging word
and the skies rain down bullshit all day.
Fred, I did know you were a teacher, but didn't know you were an English teacher. Keep the poetry coming. You'll need a lot of each before the N takes the slow route to Coney Island again.
I teach US History and Speech Communication, but I have this weakness for poetry and love putting poetic ideas together. I have to admit my little words of light to Bob was no a gem but if it got a laugh or made someone feel ok, then I did my job. Remember, though, what goes on between Brighton Bob and Sea Beach Fred is all in fun. He is one of my closest friends.
Yeh Right, he even picks up the phone and calls me
ROTFLMAO
OK, Fred. This is just for you.
Triplexes on the Sea Beach
Circle Q
Yea man Steve, that is the way I feel. Way to go. One word of caution, don't let Bob see that. He will get a case of apoplexy and think we're in some kind of conspiracy against him.
I can always turn it around:
slant R-40s on the diamond Q
R-68s on the circle Q
Now Steve, you're back to reality, although I believe that the circle Q is not THAT slow. You have it nearly as bad as the Slow Beach.
You're better off sticking to reality than delving into pure fantasy.
Why? If we can run the D train up Lexington Avenue, then by gum, we can make redbirds walk on water if we wanna. :)
Kev, your realities as well as your fantasies are fine and dandy. Steve is better off sticking to reality.
Just poking fun, that's all.
Hey Fred,
For what it's worth; I believe that until the MTA builds a cross-Narrows tunnel (which may NEVER happen), the Sea Beach train should be a Brooklyn/Manhattan express that runs over the Manhattan Bridge when the bridge fully opens. I think the N could become a somewhat popular route in Brooklyn if it ran express in both Brooklyn and Manhattan.
Well thank you sir. I have been mouthing those exact words in different form for close to three years now and they have fallen on deaf ears. We can hope for the best in 2004.
The Pennsylvania Railroad just happened to have a New York-Chicago train by that name. IIRC it was the counterpart of the New York Central's 20th Century Limited.
Amtrak kept the name until the mid-90s. Now we're stuck with the crappy "Three Rivers".
Why a Brighton skip stop service when you have 4 tracks?
Not until Prospect Park ;) you could have a really silly two station skipstop - half the trains stop at Atlantic and half at Grand Army Plaza!
Alternatively, I have come up with a kinda silly idea of my own... re-instate the Fulton St El from Franklin Av to Brooklyn Bridge, then continue up Park Row, Pitt St, Av C, FDR Drive, 23rd St, West Side Highway to Javits Center. This would solve the three problems:
- access to East Village (plus as it's meant not to be the nicest bit of Manhattan, an El will meet less resistance - it'd be likely to raise property prices not lower them)
- access to Javits Center (plus an El costs about a quarter to a third of the price of a Subway)
- more capacity on the Brighton Line and across the East River.
Okay, I was a little loose on my terminology.
What I mean is this: Q runs Express Brighton-Kngs Hwy., Local to Prospect. D runs Local CONEY ISLAND-KINGS HWY., Express to Prospect Park. Or, I think we should install switches at CHURCH ave. to do the reverse (D back to local, Q back to express)
Interesting plan, but you would have a few problems...
The amount of switching in your plan may be a little excessive, and would cause some major tie-ups. The N alone going local and then going over the bridge would create a major headache at DeKalb.
The Rockaway Park branch just does not have enough riders to justify alternating service with the Far Rockaway branch. I'm not entirely sure, but I think Far Rock is probably the most popular branch of the three branches of the current A route (including Lefferts).
If I'm travelling to Far Rockaway from Lefferts (or vice-versa), I would have to go all the way to Euclid to transfer.
Lefferts Blvd. riders would be very upset to see their train go local west of Euclid, and I wouldn't blame them at all.
Brighton skip-stop would be EXTREMELY unpopular on the Brighton Line, especially when there are express tracks. I remember when Brighton had a skip-stop service, people were VERY unhappy with it.
Other than that (and a few other things with the Culver Line which you already heard from others); you may have a decent plan.
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No, you wouldn't. You'd do the same thing you'd do now--- Transfer at Rockaway Blvd. But what I mean is that during peak hours, the train will utilise the 3rd track.
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So, should we vote to start the (C) at Rockaway??? Maybe our problem is that people don't like having to transfer to the(A)
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Here's how I came up with this: I was on a Saturday (Q). At Kings Hwy., the train switched to express. The ride was nice, and since I got on at ave. U, It would be MUCH easier to just (excuse me if i seem rude) SWITCH EXPRESS-LOCAL AND LOCAL-EXPRESS JUST BEFOR KINGS HIGHWAY!!!!
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I'm not so sure. Maybe if we can have the (N)skip Dekalb? But then again, if we do, then we will have 1 train via Bridge, and1 via tunnel (instead of 2 via bridge). Also, when an (N) and an (R) are in PACIFIC AVE, the (R) gets the priority!
Any other questions?
TO CLARIFY THE BRIGHTON SITUATION!!!
(D) CONEY ISLAND
WEST 8TH STREET
OCEAN PARKWAY
BRIGHTON BEACH
SHEEPSHEAD BAY
NECK ROAD
AVENUE U
KINGS HIGHWAY- CENTER TRACKS
NEWKIRK AVENUE
CHURCH AVENUE- LOCAL TRACKS
PARKSIDE AVENUE
ALL STOPS TO DEKALB
(Q) BRIGHTON BEACH
SHEEPSHEAD BAY
KINGS HIGHWAY- LOCAL TRACKS
AVENUE M
AVENUE J
AVENUE H
NEWKIRK AVENUE
CORTELYOU ROAD
BEVERL(E)Y ROAD
CHURCH AVENUE- EXPRESS TRACKS
PROSPECT PARK
ALL STOPS TO DEKALB AVENUE
See? The stops are juuuust about equal!!! How's about that?
How Bout this:
(A)- Alternating service Between Far Rock and Rock Park
(C)- 168th st - Lefferts VIA LOCAL(Rush hours, the train will skip the Quees elevated stops to Rockaway Blvd, Including Rock. Blvd.
(E)- Jamaica Center. Express In Queens All times. Rush Hours- some express in Manhattan (AM- to WTC, PM- to queens)
(G)- Crosstown Local - Church Ave to Queensboro plaza (all times.)Rush hours, to Ave. X
(F)- Culver local. All times- Express from Church to Smith (or whatever the last express stop underground is) Rush hours- Brooklyn stops before Church- Neptune, Ave. X., Kings Hwy., Church Ave.
(D)- Brighton Local/Express- Skip-stop with (Q) (local to Kings Hwy., Express to Prospect Park. Peak express to Bronx. To Coney Island
(Q)- Broadway Express, Brighton Local/Express. (Weekdays only)Express to Kings Hwy. Local after that. Other times,use (D). To Coney Island
(B)- Coney Island- Bedfod Park Blvd. All times except late nights. Express in Brooklyn, Local North of 59th st. < B > peak express Bay Pkwy- 9th Ave (similar to <7> service)
(W)- Broadway Express. Bay Pkwy.- Astoria. Weekdays only. Local in Brooklyn express in Astoria
(R)- Broadway Local. Same service
(N)- Broadway "Limited" (after Pacific Ave., Goes over bridge. After Canal st, (N) switches to Local track ) Weekdays only.
(M)- Brighton Local. To Brighton Beach
Summary:
Bridge Routes - North Side (6 Ave): B,D
South side Q,N,W
This looks like a very good plan on paper and it might actually be feasible in practice.
#3 West End Jeff
thanx
Thanks,
I only hope that the MTA replaces that one switch on the Culver Line south of Kings Hwy. The F could then have one heck of an express run in Brooklyn during rush hours.
...not to mention that the one switch would save riders Kings Hwy and further south about 5 extra minutes.
There is a photograph on page 18 of "The Tracks of New York, Number 2;Brooklyn Elevated Railroads" dated 1889 showing the Sea Beach Palace Hotel and right next to it a huge elephant called "Jumbo". I asked Fred if he ever remembered seeing the elephant since he goes back to the old days on the Sea Beach. Paul Matus mentioned "Lucy" the elephant in Margate NJ. I believe that there were orginally three of the pacyderms. Does anyone have more information on them?
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
James V. Lafferty built three elephants. I believe Lucy was the first and smallest. The other two were the one in Coney Island and the other in or near Cape May, NJ. I've never seen a picture of this third elephant and don't know when it disappeared.
Or it might be in HeyPaul's living room.
Thanks Paul, your probably right about the location of the third elephant.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The elephant at Cape May was named "Light of Asia" but was more commonly known as "Old Jumbo". It was constructed by a real estate speculator named Lafferty (who also built the other two elephants) in 1884 but was never maintained; by 1900 it had deteriorated significantly and was being used as a home by vagrants, and was torn down on orders from the town of South Cape May. Reports vary as to whether it was slightly smaller or somewhat larger than Lucy the Margate elephant; no photographs are known to exist.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks Anon.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You've gotta love the internet....Here's a page with some pics.
Yes, there are lots of shots of Lucy around, and a few of Coney Island's Jumbo... but none of South Cape May's.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NR: Thank you for the pictures.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I will be coming to New York Memorial Day weekend, Central Electric Railway Association of Chicago will be in New York for a series of Subway charters fan trips, I am a motorman on the mighty Chicago Elevated. It would be more than a pleasure to meet some of my fellow sub-talkers who also Motormen (alright TOs) and conductors, as well as several others who are fans of what I call the 8th wonder of the world, The New York Subway system.
I will be coming to New York, Memorial Day weekend, Central Electric Railway Association of Chicago will be in New York for a series of Subway charters fan trips, I am a motorman on the mighty Chicago Elevated. It would be more than a pleasure to meet some of my fellow sub-talkers who also Motormen (alright TOs) and conductors, as well as several others who are fans of what I call the 8th wonder of the world, The New York Subway system.
You are welcome to an A train ride, $1.50 at the door. You can see our OPTO setup to make you feel at home. What fantrips are you scheduled for here?
Please don't get me started on OPTO, we (the union) just made it easier for OPTO to come to New York (and Boston, and Toronto) quicker. It's interesting you mention the A train. That is my favorite subway line, I don't know of any other subway line that literally goes over an ocean. Tentatively, CERA on May 26, is having a charter of Redbirds in the Bronx, and on the following Monday, Memorial Day, the charter will use either the Lo-v or Triplex equipment in Brooklyn and Queens.
Don't think the low-v's are up to the trip yet.
All I can say is not another D-Type... I D-typed out.
Chicago: Do you have CERA's web-site address. CERA has a rep for running great fantrips.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I found this
CERA Link
Engine Brake: Thanks .
Larry,RedbirdR33
As frequent readers of this website know we have spent several days and hundreds of post discussing the Sea Beach Line and its one loyal fan. As BMT Man foretold lets consider some of the other railroads that served Coney Island area , there were four others and all had more imaginative name. Afterall any rail line running south in Brooklyn eventually reaches the sea and ergo you will have a beach..
1862- Brooklyn,Bath and Coney Island RR
1875- Prpospect Park and Coney Island RR
1878 Brooklyn,Flatbush and Coney Island Rwy
circa 1878- New York and Manhattan Beach RR
The Brighton ran from a railhead with the LIRR at Bedford station south to the famous Brighton Beach Hotel. The Brighton Line was widened to four tracks from Church Avenue south from 1905-1910. This was before the Dual Contracts. It was later widened to four tracks between Prospect Park and Church Avenue. Now the Brighton Line proper includes today's Franklin Avenue Line not the 1920 Flatbush Avenue Connection between Prospect Park and DeKalb Avenue. If we ride from Franklin Avenue south we start out on a raised embankment to south of Park Place where we go into an open cut and pass underneath Eastern Parkway in a magnificent brick arch tunnel. Before entering Propect Park we pass through the Malbone Street Tunnel of sad momory.
South from Propsect Park we have four track main in an open cut to south of Newkirk Avenue and then up onto a wide raised embaknment. Between Brighton beach and Ocean Parkway we have a six track elevated structure. In contrast to certain other four track lines the Brighton had and still has service on all four tracks. Its the only place were you can have a four train meet above ground. Now the Brighton Line riders have always been a happy and jolly group know for there frolicking and frivoilty. They knew how to have fun.This is in contrast to another line were the riders constanly chant the mantra"Woe is me,woe is me, I once had express service but now its gone." The Brighton served Luna Park,Dream Land, Steeplechase, and Ebbetts Field. There was even a siding to the Sheepshead Bay Race Track and sidings for two of Brooklyn's famous breweries. I can't think of any intermediate points of interest on that other line except maybe Bath Juction??? If you ride the Brighton Line northboud you have a wonderful view of the Grande Dame of all New York skyscrapers, the Empire State Building. From the other line all you can see is the Belt Parkway.
If there is to be a criticism of the Brighton it is a minor one of over enthusiasm. As Paul Matus relates in Silver Leaf Booklet #2 the Brighton Beach Hotel was built a little too close to the water and the Atlantic Ocean made frequent and unannounced vists to the lobby at high tide. The Brighton solved this proplem in typical railroad fashion. They jacked up the hotel onto flatcars and using several steam locomotive moved the building several hundred yards up the mainline. When was the last time you ever heard of that other line jacking up any thing but the fare?
The Brighton has always been a fascinating line for equiptment, nearly everything that ever ran on the BRT or BMT ran here,BU's,Standards,Triplexes,The Zephyr,the Green Hornet, and nearly every kind of R-Type not to menton the IRT Lo-V's.
In the weeks to come we came vist Andrew Culver's Railroad and "Take a Bath" on the West End.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't know, Larry. The Brighton Line is sort of the 800 pound gorilla of the BMT. If it beats its chest all the other monkeys might have to throw sticks at it ;-)
Paul: Peolple very often criticize the Yankees for winning too many games, as if Oakland gave up in the fifth inning or Seattle refused to get off the plane. When your the best,your the best.
Why do you think the Brighton Line was assigned route number 1? You always lead with your best pitcher.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Amen!
If you're going to equate the Brighton with the Yankees, I may have to switch teams and side with Fred!
Bob: Just stating the obvious. There both No 1. But if you want to side with fred that "sor-right". He will need all the help he can get.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, what a post! I'm going to have to save this one.
This one should be archived for future generations of railfans...
BMTman
Thanks Doug: I always did like a ride on the Brighton especially went you make the turn into Brighton Beach and catch your first glimpse of Coney Island. The Franklin was always a good spot to ride those rare birds the R-11's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Very cute!
On a more serious note, you can read all about these lines here.
--Mark
Mark, thanks for that very, very nice link.
Larry, thanks for that post. You should have also mentioned that those summer beach specials that originated from Nassau St., that were the only regular service to use that certain-other-line's express tracks for a period spanning years, were only an extension of a Brighton Express route to/from Fulton--Franklin.
Q Brightliner: One of the most interesting aspects of the Brighton Line has been the great variety of service.If we look at the #1 we have the Brighton-Broadway Express,Brighton-Nassau Express,Brighton Broadway Local via Bridge or via Tunnel.
If we look at the #7 we have the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, Brighton-Franklin Local and Express and the Franklin-Nassau Express aka the Sunny Summer Sunday Specials.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Waited 1.25 hours for a SB F at Bergen last night (~3am). The train that did eventually (4.25am) show up came off the crosstown line, and the T/O said there was a broken rail at B'way Nassau.
With a weekend long GO in effect for Rutgers, and the SB Cranberry kaput, the crosstown was the only option. I'm just glad I walked to Bergen and not Jay!
I'm surprised they didn't rig up some sort of alternation scheme for running both directions between Chambers and Jay St, the tube is traffic locked, after all. I guess to do anything on the fly in the middle of the night would be almost impossible.
Arrgh.
Dave
Why did Budd go out of business? They seemed to be doing good with business. Sao Paulo ordered 306 cars in the 70s, Baltimore, LA and Miami also ordered cars in the early 80s. It a shame that the company that pioneered stainless steel bodies went under. Also, didn't they reorganize and was called by a different name for a short period? What was the name and what caused reorganization?
Because they lost money on every single order beginning with the original Metroliner order in the late 1960's.
I think the last order that they made money on was either the M3's for the MKT-FKD line in Philly or the 600 Brightliner R32's that went to NYCTA in 1964-65.
They simply couldn't make money building rail cars anymore.
In the heyday, they would design and build. Have you ever seen a builders plate that proclaims 'Designed and Built by the Budd Company'? The costs for design were incorporated in the quote price. This helped profits.
When transit authorities started dictating design, and changes to design (sometimes many), the car building process became a losing business.
It is quite a shame, because from the erecting floor of Red Lion came some of the finest, in this railfan's opinion, looking railcars in the world.
Jim Kramer
formally of Philadelphia
If they were loosing so much money, why didn't Budd just make higher bids? Do you know what vehicles Budd didn't design? The PACTO cars say "Designed and Built" as do the M1's. It would be a godsend if Budd were to be reincarnated in some way.
If Budd were reincarnated, it really wouldn't be the same innovative company, they just have a name with reputation, but nothing else in common. For example, Pam Am went out of business, but they sold their name to a discount carrier. So you had a discount carrier with the prestigious name Pan Am, but second rate service compared to the original Pan Am.
I wasn't looking for a Budd name, but the Budd spirit of quality and craftsmenship.
The Pan Am name is owned by none other than Guilford Transportation Industries (one railroad I'd like to see disappear)
The Pan Am name is owned by none other than Guilford Transportation Industries (one railroad I'd like to see disappear)
Yet the "new" Pan Am airlines is said to be doing rather well for itself. Their strategy of using uncrowded secondary airports (Portsmouth-Pease, Sanford, Gary) near major metro areas makes sense, at least it has so far. Of course, new Pan Am is still a very small-scale operations, even in comparison to other startups like JetBlue or Spirit, and its long-term survival certainly isn't a given.
Jersey Mike:
Most business in this country needs to make a profit in order to survive. You must understand this principle before you can discuss bringing back the Budd Company.
The rail car building business in this country is all be dead - save for Alstom, which is currently doing the mid life overhaul on the CTA's 2600 cars. Notice I said overhaul, and Alstom isn't a US company.
Who is getting the lions share of car building today? Bombardier, and why, because railcar building isn't their only business.
There has been a huge consolidation in the business in the last five years. Why? Because there is little to no money left in the business.
When I was your age there was the Budd Company, St. Louis Car Company, and Pullman-Standard, in the railcar business. Each one left for the same reason - they couldn't make a profit building railcars. Reasons for this, nobody could or would subsidize them, the bidding process, numerous changes demanded by the public agencies that ordered the car, to name a few. When you’re charging upwards to $1 million per car and still not making a profit, what is up?
I have a press release from the RDG in 1963 when the Budd Silverliners went into service. The single car price was $125,000. I recall that the PTC press release said the average car price for the M3’s was $89,000. That was 1960’s money, but there was still profit in those sales.
The time for Budd is past, let it be a good memory.
Jim Kramer
I think Budd bit the big one with Amtrak's Amcoach/cafe, etc orders in the '70's. Those were just before the Baltimore/Miami Metro order.
The site of the old factory recently reopened as a golf course - a truly accurate commentary on the current state of affairs of American heavy industry!
I still think that someday the US will rue the day they gave up their skills to manufacture heavy equipment.
One by one, we allow manufacting to be exported to other far away countries for the sole reason - money.
When our manufacturing expertise is gone, some would argue that it is already, where do we turn when the USA has the need to make their own.
Jim Kramer
We go to the former "Third World" and/or the EEC- and beg them to supply our needs. I hate to say it, but this country is so far gone in terms of industrial capacity, education and plain old "will power" that we will be the last remaining "third world country" within the next fifty or so years.
We have all the ear marks of a territory almost ripe for "re-colonization" by some enterprising industrial power.
Bob D.
I disagree. What these third world countries do is have industries that are similar to those that existed here during the Industrial Revolution.
Meanwhile the United States and other developed countries have a technological society which more benefits the educated class.
The industrial age is over. Plain-old industry belongs here no more than the horse and buggy.
Philadelphia Gear recently stopped making gears. Now they service existing machines - but decline to manufacture any new stuff.
IIRC, the M-3s of MN/LIRR were made by Budd.
Of course, the market for US rail equipment was tiny by then, and the market for 50's vintage rail technology overseas was nonexistant.
I'm waiting for GM to throw in the towel, and I suspect they will sooner rather than later. That'll leave GE as the sole domestic builder of locomotives, but for who knows how long, at least in the passenger market.
NJT is buying foreign (Bombardier/Alstom), probbably in part because they want today's technology, not 1980's technology.
I'm amazed Metra went with MK, but then, Metra isn't exactly running modern eqiuipment anyway. Oh well...
GM isn't throwing in the towel anytime soon. If I recall correctly, they are the Number 1 manufacturer of disel-electric locomotives in the world, with GE being #2.
Yes, although their domestic sales are slumping, END has had a very strong showing in the international arena. Most notably is the Class 66 type of locomotive. In the UK EWS bought 250 with about 5 more going to other freight lines. Railroads in Denmark and Germany are also poised to make Class 66 purchases. EMD also sold 25-50 Class 67 hi-speed mail/express trains to EWS in the UK. US Diesel technology/reliability/quality is far far ahead Europeans. Those numbers might look small, but selling 250 freight locomotives to the UK is like selling Ice machines to Eskimoes. The reason EMD was having to assemble SD70's at Altoona a few years back was due to all the international orders.
>>was due to all the international orders.<<
And bulldozing the La Grange complex. GM actually has followed the theories of Jack Welch the recently retired GE honch. Get the work, job out large portions to small outfits on an as needed basis, invest in finance rather than industry.
To return to BUDD, The company was bought by Thyssen which is now Thyssen/Krupp the major German steel firm. If you want BUDD structural work, Mafersa in Brazil and a Portugese firm whose name escapes me have revcently built ss carbodies which were then imported for assembly here. I belive the "MK" California Cars--bi levels used on contract by Atk for intrastate runs were Mafersa shells. You might want to look at some Brazilian web sites for pix of BUDD derivative transit/commuter cars built down there for domestic usage.
>>To return to BUDD, The company was bought by Thyssen which is now Thyssen/Krupp the major German steel firm.<<
I found their website http://www.buddcompany.com
Click on "history" where they mention their railcar manufacturing past. The company logo hasn't changed either.
Bill "Newkirk"
If you want to see some Budd and Mafersa pics, check out the photos I took in Sao Paulo
Those cars are butta smooth. I've never ridden smoother ridering cars, ever.
You provided some excellent insights in your post. The railcar business is a tough business to be in. However, I will disagree with one specific comment, and then I'll tell you why:
"Who is getting the lions share of car building today? Bombardier, and why, because railcar building isn't their only business."
No, that's not the reason. Bombardier's profitable aerospace business does help make the company more attractive to investors (with some caveats these days regarding Sept. 11's tragedy). But Bombardier's railcar business could stand on its own, profitably, because of critical mass and market share. Bombardier sells in France, in Canada, in the US, in Germany, in other places. In the US, they count Boston, New York and Philadelphia (Adtranz subsidiary) as customers. Bombardier makes passenger rail equipment of all sizes (subway, commuter rail, MU, push-pull), as well as freight equipment (but I still maintain their passenger business is large enough to be viable on its own). And, of course, their French carbody subsidiary ANF Industrie undoubtedly gets subsidies and financing help from the French government (ditto for Aerospatiale etc.).
The proximate cause of Budd's withdrawal from car building were the M-1 cars for the LIRR. They had so much trouble with them that the Long Island had to cancel multiple trains over a period of months while Budd got them going.
After the debacle was cleared up, Budd anounced that they no longer wanted to be in the rail car business because too much of the electronics and other control devices had to come from outside suppliers over whom Budd did not have control. So they didn't feel that they could any longer produce the kind of equipment they could put the Budd name on.
Sad, but not unexpected. And yet the M-1's are still running...outlasted their builder (with some credit going to LIRR maintenance).
Guys if I could put my two cents worth in on this subject. There is a talk show host in the Philly area named Irv Homer maybe some of the Philly people have heard of evil Irv as he is called. But he had commented that a few years ago our own government actually gave big incentives for some of our companys to leave the USA and go to a foreign country! And lets not forget about what the likes of NAFTA and the World Trade Organization is doing to our country.
Ron:
One of the things I missed most when I moved from Philadelphia, actually North Wales, to Chicago in 1996 was 'The Evil One' who could be heard on WWDB.
Irv Homer made a lot of noise, but if you sifted through it all, you could make some sense out of what he was saying.
Two passing era's in radio in Philadelphia was first, the day they changed WWDB from all talk to all 1980's. The second was when WFLN went off the air.
These were two classics in Philadelphia Radio broadcasting.
Jim Kramer
Formally of Philadelphia
WFLN is still around on a part time basis, sharing Temple University's WRTI (90.1) with "real jazz". Several of WFLN's people are still on the air.
This question is totally off-topic, but since we're on the subject of Philadelphia radio stations...
Can WCZT - 94.3 FM be picked up in Philly? WCZT broadcasts from Atltantic City / Cape May, NJ. There's a nationallly syndicated radio program called Musical Starstreams (www.starstreams.com) that I listen to religiously on Sunday nights -- in fact, I'm listening to it as I type this -- and WCZT is the only station anywhere near Philly that carries it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I was unable to pick up 94.3 at 6:15 this morning at exit 40 of I-295 (Mount Laurel, northeast of Philly but about the same distance from A.C.). If you move to Philly, the round trip trainfare between 30th St and Atlantic City is $12 on NJT.
I was unable to pick up 94.3...
Fiddlesticks! Guess I'll have to somehow hook my computer up to my stereo so that I can listen the program via streaming audio or MP3 via the web.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You mean the Budd Company doesn't make beer? D'oh!
No, and in Shelbyville Dubb doesn't make beer either.
Mark
Blaming NAFTA and WTO for our troubles is laughably silly.
We've priced ourselves out of the market for many commodities because margins are thin. We compete fiercely in very high-margin, high-value things, like jet engines and jetliners, computerized machine tools, computer chips, railway locos (freight) (but not memory chips), even autos. Anything else we tend to give up. This is a conscious decision made by manufacturers, and which encourages/is reinforced by trends in the kinds of education people get or themselves.
The picture is more complicated than that, of course.
OK
Second part of the question
Transit American was Budd's second name.
BTW Budd started in the automotive product field and drifted into rail products. Budd is still around - making auto parts.
BTW Budd started in the automotive product field and drifted into rail products.
Both my next-door neighbor and my wife's uncle worked in Budd's automotive division and quit in the early 1950's; my neighbor went into business for himself and Uncle Harry became a Philly cop.
Actually all the LA cars were built by Breda. The Bredas are similar in appearance (at least on the inside) to the Budd-built cars in Baltimore and Miami. They are apparently similar enough operationally that Miami lent 4 cars to LA for testing on the Red Line once construction was complete since Breda hadn't provided enough cars due to a problem w/ a subcontractor.
I was just looking at a site about Amtrak's fleet, and it states that the AEM-7's car bodies were manufactured by Budd.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Anybody else sign up for the Operator's Course at Branford this year??
I have... unfortunately, due to my wife's health problems, I'm either going to have to get some private tutoring (I won't be able to make at least two of the sessions) or put it off another year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Send an Email to Jeff to work it out if you want before deciding on putting it off a year.
Webmaster@bera.org
Today I ventured out to Exchange Place for some black and white shots. On the way back was cool. I took some pictures at Pavonia Newport of the HBLR and some guy came up to me and asked if I liked trains. Of course, I said yes and he introduced himself. He visits this site, he is Bill, a night operator on the NCS. We talked for a bit and then on the way back on the 2...There was a lot of radio activity, so I stood up by the cab door. All the trains on the downtown side were halted. The only thing I could make out from the transmissions was "12-9". This was around 5:20-25. What happened?
Train lost power north of 72 on 1 track all service rerouted down the express 96-72. 12-9 at 34 1 track no south bound service all trains turned at 96 or 137 (depending on terminal). All the trains that were stuck between 96 and the B/O train at 72 discharged and sat in stations until power was restored.
I seen some No.2 Trains with No.5 signs coming down Lex. This must of been a bad day for 12-9's.
At 11:35PM a Southbound No.6 had a 12-9 at 59 Street. That train was 2 ahead of me. I got turned at 3 Ave to go back to Pelham Bay. The No.6 with the 12-9 was a R142A.
The 1621 V.C. was the train that lost power. Two ahead of me. The 1625 White Plains had the 12-9 , my follower.
For the TA. a 12-9 is a man under.
It looks like we had 2 of them on the IRT.
Whew!!!! Im glad I took an AVA. Sundays always been a ball buster for me since the pick started.
This set of drawings explores the idea of new extended lines (in this case, in Queens) and super-express services to a new trunk line in Manhattan. It employs a hub (Jamaica Center) and a new four track subway (Myrtle Avenue) to Manhattan.
Part of the idea, is to return to fast and very fast subway trains that are not burdened with aging structure, and merging routes. The idea is to move people from an outlying area to a central area as quickly as possible, as well as providing new coverage in areas that are not connected to the present system.
My drawings are at Subways 2020 on Tripod.
Thanks for looking, and for any feedback that you may have.
Elias
Just checked your maps. You have one station called Throop-Sumner. Just to let you know there is no more Sumner Av. Its been called Marcus Garvey Blvd for years now. Only the real old-timers call it Sumner Av now.
Perhaps he wanted a short sign. "Throop - Marcus Garvey" - now that's a mouthful!
Enos Throop and Marcus Garvey. An even bigger mouthful.
The Microsoft maps that I have been using have most of the new names, but they must have missed that one.
Ought we tell it to Bill Gates... he wants to get ingo better quality control these days.
Elias
I recently bought the MicroSoft Streets & Tips and also the most recent Hagstrom Atlas of NYC. The two differ quite a bit.
Where they disagree, I'd put my money on Hagstrom's because they're local.
The classic case of out-of-towners thinking they could come in and compete: Southwestern Bell issued a Manhattan phone book. They put in a map of Manhattan and they put Manhattan on its side. Slightly strange, but not totally outrageous. But then they proceeded to label all the streets upside down, so that the only way to read the street labels was by putting the Battery on top!
Hehehehee.....
But the copyright license was cheap.
: )
Elias
Don't they know how the song goes?
New York, New York
It's a hell of a town
The Bronx is up
And the Battery's down
(italics mine)
Mark
You know exactly how to incur my wrath! You spelled Franklin incorrectly.
Hi,
I am coming to nyc this week and wondered if there are any railfan trips planned for the next week or so?
I would love to travel into the bronx, the r143 on the L, or out to queens..
I am coming for a conference, but I miss my subway bad... I NEED A FIX!!!
BVE just wont do :)
Feel free to e-mail me at mightyman@onebox.com
Thanks,
Allen
the Early Stainless Fleet (R32,R38,R40,R42)
Although we didn't get enough votes (56 total) to claim any kind of statistical validity (plus web polls are self-selected) the R32+ group did get significant more votes (13 or 23%) than the runners-up BMT Heavyweights and Second Generation Stainless (9 each of 16%).
The BMT Lighweights and the Lo-Vs got little attention (2 each or 4%) and the Transitionals (R10-R15) didn't get a single vote.
The only spin I'll put on the thing is that I think it's fairly notable that the pre-Unification cars added together (all three systems) garnered more than a third of the vote (36%) considering that I'm not sure that as much as the 36% of SubTalkers ever got to ride on one in revenue service.
All the results.
I can leave this up for a few more days in case there are any stragglers who would like to express their views.
Last Chance to Take the Poll.
I want to thank all the Subtalkers who were kind enough to take my kids' color poll online for her science fair project. She didn't get a prize (rats!) but her science teacher did give her a 100 on the project--it counts a lot toward her Science grade.
She ended up with 831 votes total. The underlying purpose of the poll (which I didn't reveal earlier so as not to spoil the results) was to determine if web site color preferences change as people go from childhood to adulthood. Being interested in graphics, I think the results are interesting because they're not exactly what I expected. They were more even than I thought, and the kids went for more conservative colors overall than I would have predicted.
Kid results
Adult results
THANKS AGAIN FOR HELPING!!
Well, folks, if on your next trip on the subways, you're seeing more orange than any other color, rest assured that it's not you.
Just found out today that a new bulletin was sent out Thursday regarding safety vests. All RTO personnel are required to wear them when in view of the public. That means on revenue trains and on platforms. Conductors and train operators have to wear them. Train service supervisors have to wear them. Dispatchers who are on the platforms longer than two minutes have to put one on.
The reasoning behind this is so passengers will know and easily be able to identify a NYCT employee.
Ordinarily I wouldn't have a problem with new bulletins when they come out even if they don't make sense, but this one baffles me.
If I have to put on a safety vest for people to know I'm a conductor, then why am I wearing a uniform? Why do I put on the blue shirt and the red tie? Why do I put on the conductor's cap with a big silver badge? Does that not scream out CONDUCTOR? Why not just wear regular civilian clothes and put on a vest and go to work? After all, the safety vest tells everyone I'm a TA employee.
I can see having people who work the platforms wear them. I can see TSSs and TDs wearing them. I can see cleaners wearing them. But if I'm on a road train in passenger service, why am I wearing one? Why is the motorman wearing one? I don't get it.
Help me to understand.
As usual in RTO, a pound of prevention is worth an ounce of cure :-p
David
Just wait until the wiglets discover STROBE LIGHTS ... :)
Always got something smart to say, right, my friend? LOL
Sorry, I just know what happens when they have meetings. I agree completely though for what little that's worth. I went for motorman years ago just to lose the damned monkeysuit ... :)
I don't get it either. More control for management over the employees. I guess the uniform isn't enough. It is very uncomfortable wearing a vest and operating a train at the same time. The safety vest is one size fits all which is not good. Sometimes the snaps will unfasten. Just wait till the summer. The safety vest is plastic, we will be even more uncomfortable, and we will sweat more.
We don't want the safety vests melting in the summer :-)
I thought about that too, Bill. And you know how hot some of those operating cabs can get.
if i was a Motorman i would only wear it when i am NOT on the subway train with passengers operating. After all guys i work in mcDonalds and i work in the Grill area. I gotta wear the stupid apron the same way motormen wear the vests. i gotta wear it at all times. GIVE ME A BREAK! IF I AM NOT CLOCKED IN AND ON DUTY I AM NOT WEARING IT! IF I AM A CASHIER FOR THAT DAY I AM NOT WEARING IT! so i say to the Motorman do what they say when they around but when they not.......
cmon now, how many of us follow EVERY rule! i be eating food in McDonalds even when im NOT on duty! and i get it for free. rule says we must be on duty and on our break to get free food. LOL I EAT FREE FOOD BOTH OFF DUTY AND WHEN I AM ON DUTY WITHOUT BREAK. and what they gonna do about it!
so i say its not fair to the Motormen
Well I cant see the point of wearing the vest in the subway car it seems redicilous. The only time an the MBTA we wear the safety is on or near the tracks or anytime in a construction area. However if we dont wear the vest when we are suposed to and get injured workers comp WILL NOT cover the injury sustained. There theroy is the injurd person didn't have appropriate safety equipment at the time of injury.
>>> However if we dont wear the vest when we are suposed to and get injured workers comp WILL NOT cover the injury sustained. <<<.
Who told your that?? Workers' Compensation is a no fault system that covers all on the job injuries whether you are following safety procedures or not. There may be some disciplinary action for failing to wear a vest, but any injuries will be covered by Workers' Comp.
Tom
Bill, you didn't read the entire bulletin> Managers and Supervisors must wear them too, during emergencies and special events.
This is my favorite bulletin, whenever I start to get pissed I just recall the wording and start laughing to myself.
Wearing of the vest will let the customers know that we are available to assist them. (if I'm not wearing a vest I can't help you.)
Also wearing of the vest will provide our customers with a sense of safety. (I have had numerous people come up to me and tell me they felt safer now that I'm wearing a plastic orange vest.)
Wording not exact, but that's basically what it says.
Customers now feel safer that you are enveloped in orange plastic. CI Peter
I found this memo in my file today & here what the memo say.
October 25, 2001
Re: Employee Visibility in Publice Areas
Dear Fellow Employees:
In response to the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, New York City Transit has increased security measures to protect the public transportation system in New York.
In an effort to enhance the customers ability to identify New York City Transit employees, I am requiring that SAFETY VESTS BE WORN BY ALL ON-DUTY OPERATING EMPLOYEES WHEN THEY ARE IN CUSTOMER ACCESSIBLE TRANSIT PROPERTY AREAS.
This requirement does not apply to Bus Operators and Collection Agents.
Sincerely,
Lawrence G. Reuter
President of MTA
I hope you people understand this memo & some of you might not have this or see memo back in October.
Why has it taken almost 4 months for this memo to cause such an uproar?
Peace,
ANDEE
As a memo, it doesn't carry any weight. On 2/8, it was issued as a Bulletin, which is the equivalent of a Rule, thereby enforceable for noncompliance.
I wonder if that applies to Station Agents?
I saw that memo and asked the S/S (Station Supervisor) and was told it did apply to me (as a lunch relief.) I told the S/S that I will wear the vest starting my next work day. Fortunately the s/s was human and I got into no trouble. I ahev been wearing a vest since then and have never been instructed to stop wearing the vest.
It is my understanding that if you are in the booth, then the answer is no but if you are outside of the booth then it is yes. Lunch reliefs do escorts, clean MVMs, Wheels, open/close gates so this job is in contact with public areas.
I do not mind wearing a vest, SO many people wear Navy. The vest with MTA on it does allow ready identification by NYPD, FDNY and the customers.
Alex is right here. This is the rule:
>>> This is the rule <<<
A strict interpretation of the rule would require all exempt TA personnel to wear the vest whenever they use their employee MetroCard to travel on the system since they are considered to be always working for the TA without specific hours. I doubt that the suits will see it that way though. They always find ways to exempt themselves from onerous rules because they are too important to follow them.
Tom
What the MTA is CLEARLY indicating in this directive is that they intend to hire hundreds of new employees to perform perfunctory hand-holding and safety functions on each and every platform and train in the system and are using current staff as a stopgap until they reach that goal. I showed the photocopy of the "bulletin" to a few friends who work in the legislature for various elected officials and that's what they read into it, pressing of employees into a service that the unions may consider "out of title" ... could get amusing.
By NOT demanding in the same bulletin that ID tags or other "identification as valid MTA employees" as part of the scheme, they've argued away the "safety" angle ... after all, a photo ID is considered "security" and not a vest that could be easily counterfeited. But again, this is just a few folks discussing this over a few beers. But for what it's worth, "legislative aides" have looked at it and will be bringing it up to those they work for.
Stations has instructed us (Via Mass Call) to always carry our pass,badge and photo ID whenever we are on MTA property and to cooperate with NYPD as instructed by NYPD.
To answer a question not yet asked- The MAss Call is a feature of the EBCS which allows use as a PA System for announcements to all or some booths regarding service changes, policy instructions, train service disruptions such as BIEs, Sick Customers,etc. Such announcements are not broadcast over the station PA System but Dispatchers, towers, as well as S/As can make their own announcements based on the "private Annoucements."
I am quick to make announcements and issue block tickets since early issuance leads to happier cusotmers and less chance of calling the riot police.
While still on probation I cleared my station in downtown Brooklyn due to no service because of a water main break in downtown manhattan. When the supervisor arrived around an hour later he asked why the station was so calm and was favorable impressed. Every other Brooklyn IRT station needed riot police and my station was empty! I was not even on the clock when I cleared the station. The supervisor did change my hours and informed me the general supt said thank you.
Cool beans ... nice to see the railroad functioning logically. You DO realize you'll be punished for that. Heh. Yeah, I knew about the "private lines" as they were known years ago although I'm sure it's more than a box on the wall these days with a buzz constantly coming out of it. And yes, pass and badge was always a requirement too - only difference being I'll bet they still don't require them to be worn visibly on the outside of the vest. We'd keep our pass and ID in the wallet and only have the badge viewable years ago ...
An earlier letter from Reuter and confirmed by Station Department Bulletin said we must wear our passes on our outermost layer of clothing with the photo clearly visible above the waist.
Ah well ... so much for that theory ... wonder if "operating" folks are required to do that as well. I know the rules were always different for the booths owing to MONEY being on the other side of the door ...
We cannot be disciplined for following instructions given by supervision which are legal and within the guidleines fo our job. If a supervisior tells me to go to the roof of 370Jay and use an audio hailer to announce "Larry Reuter for US President: I would obey. Of course if the superviasor were to tell me to clean the track then I could refuse on grounds I am not track qualified and have not had formal flagging training. I could also grieve such a request. Burt making annoucements is within our guidelines so I'd have to obey that request.
If a request is poor judgment by supervision it usually comes back to haunt them. Once a supervisor told me as an instruction not to answer questions on platforms. I put that in the G2 which promptly got spiked.
If a supervisor makes a wrong decision which impacts you, put that in the G2 and the G2 will be spiked or the supervisor making the faulty request will be written up.
I obey instructions which are safe, legal, moral and within the rules knowing I can and will win later.
Where is the entrance to the roof at 370Jay :)-- dont answer!
Heh. The key to the penthouse is in the little state employee's room. :)
Mr. Reuter also informs us to have our ID prominently displayed along with 'safety tip of the day.' WE were given armbands of the party to wear...it doesn't fit me well and cuts off my blood supply...I'm back to the 'quick release' lanyard with the ID in my shirt pocket. There is a leather holder that you can wear around your neck or snap on your belt...I'm looking. CI Peter
Dunno if you've ever seen the "ear tags" that they put on cows ... I'm wondering how long it will be. :)
"Dunno if you've ever seen the "ear tags" that they put on cows ... I'm wondering how long it will be. :) "
Hey! We use those things out here!
On our COWS!
Of course we also freeze-burn their numbers on their hides...
HMmmmm.......
Don't give *that* idea to the management!
Elias
You can get cow tags with insect repellent too. The best part is the installation equipment. CI Peter
Heh. Yeah, away from the MTA tax zone, "tagging" takes on a whole new meanin' ...
By the Rules, we are to always have our photo ID when on the clock. By another misguided memo, we are supposed to wear them in Transit supplied neckchains; when Transit finally supplies me with one, I'll think about wearing it.
Then if it gets hooked on something and you get injured the TA will be liable.
but you will have obeyed the rules! That way you wont be disciplined for failure to follow the rules!
All department have been provided with the ID holders. There are 3 types. One has the black cord that goes around the neck. For operating employees there is also a similar one with a blue cord that will break away if it catches on something. Finally, there is one with an elastic arm band.
CIs can't have the black cord, we had the blue quick release but were told to wear the armband...doesn't fit me...back to the second. How do I get the leather one to wear on my belt?? CI Peter
If RTO has been provided with them, no one has distributed them to us out in the field.
You can get one from the property protection agent at 370 Jay Street as well as the holder for the pass.
"I doubt that the suits will see it that way though. They always find ways to exempt themselves from onerous rules because they are too important to follow them."
I don't know about New York, but I've seen CTA staffers on the trains with orange vests (over suits -- NOT a fashionable look) because they were conducting passenger surveys and wanted to be easily identifiable as CTA employees.
Under prior bulletins, they were supposed to wear them for those conditions. I'm still willing to bet that the first T/O or C/R to get written up for breaking this bulletin will have it done to him by a TSS NOT wearing a vest.
>>>>>>I'm still willing to bet that the first T/O or C/R to get written up for breaking this bulletin will have it done to him by a TSS NOT wearing a vest.
Then the TSS would be written up as well. It says in the bulletin that TSS's must wear vests whenever performing duties in public view.
I could see it now: "Yes, control. I'm being written up for not wearing a vest by a TSS not wearing a vest".
"TSS, call the desk immediately".
*groans and laughs*
The write-upper becomes the person who's getting written up!!!!! Gotta love it!
Stuart, RLine86Man
And the next question - Do the TSSs who work for the group that does efficiency tests need to wear vests? If they do, no one should get caught for non-comliance, since they won't be able to hide.
I'd consider the opportunity of staking out a platform in hopes of busting employees a "special event", and write them up just the same.
In stations if a supervisor asks us to write a G2 we must com[;y, if onyl with "I wish to consult with the union first."
I have written G2s stating I followed instructions of supervision or I made a request of supervision and was ignored.I then state what instruction I was given ro what request I made that was ignored. Such G2s usually get pitched because supervision does not want to look bad.
For lunch reliefs- be ready to log your lunch with train car number , time train arrived at departing location, time arrived at next station and time due at next station. This has saved my neck many times when a supervisor asked why I was late. Once I was asked by a hearing officer on a platform why I was taking train info and got a compliment that if I had appeared before this person and presented such a case it would eb dismissed. I was also told that this was the best docunmented "case" he has ever seen. I go one step further and use the operating motor number. If there is a G.O. I so note on the log.
E-mail me off site and I'll e-mail you my Lunch relief train log form, If you'll send your scheduel I'll send you a customized version.
Guys: This G2 thing is so sad, probably because I have more than two decades of professional work in private industry. You do your work and you do your best according to to what you have been taught or told. The G2 is a written record of vocal communication...if someone, anyone says...and writes...YOU DO TOO. Do not get me wrong: I don't fight with supervision. Several very serious safety situations came up today concerning trolleying out trainsets...I am no longer part of the crew responsible for that work BUT upon notice of the situation I stopped my work and attended the 'Big Bug Out' to protect MY crew from the hazards of a Big Bug left against a shoe unattented when it fell off. I got some flak from my foreman and just pointed to the person responsible...he gave me a smirk. My carbody partner gave me heavy flak about responsibility in an accident. My 180th crew foreman knocked an unattended Big Bug off a shoe and blew a BIG arc while I held the other bug. The top concern of TA is safety and we must do what is right to protect ourselves and members of our crews. I will bring the situation out during our safety meeting and i know that my foreman and the Dep Sup will back me up. FFFFFF the G2 thing...write up the management IF they're so stupid...those G2s remain in their records too. Now we are told to copy inspection reports for our records because the butcher books won't hold up anymore. This is so childish.
WE are the new guys...WE want the new work...We left everything and lost everything to be TA...and TA wants us. WE are provisional and probationary and WE must protect ourselves, our partners, the equipment and the system. WE are the TA Rangers, we live for the one, we die for the one and we don't die stupidly.
And we bring needed outside experience to the system!!!
Engine Brake: I am on your side.
Of course they would. But lets be real here, what chance is there of a TSS not wearing a vest writing up an hourly worker not wearing a vest?
Funny thing, it says in the bulletin that hourlies need to wear their vest on their outer garments. So a couple T/O's have started to take their folded up vest and have wrapped it around their upper arm with a rubber band. I mean, they ARE wearing it aren't they?
After the original bulletin requiring T/Os and other people working on the platform to wear safety glasses, I had a glasses-less TSS try to write me up - and I ALWAYS wear glasses (mostly 'cause I can't see without them).
But managers and supervisors should wear the vest because they wear civilian clothes and the vest is the only way a member of the riding public will know they are a NYCT employee. The t/o and c/r already are wearing a uniform.
Just found out today that a new bulletin was sent out Thursday regarding safety vests. All RTO personnel are required to wear them when in view of the public ... The reasoning behind this is so passengers will know and easily be able to identify a NYCT employee.
If I have to put on a safety vest for people to know I'm a conductor, then why am I wearing a uniform? Why do I put on the blue shirt and the red tie? Why do I put on the conductor's cap with a big silver badge? Does that not scream out CONDUCTOR? Why not just wear regular civilian clothes and put on a vest and go to work? After all, the safety vest tells everyone I'm a TA employee.
Conductors' uniforms are not as obvious and distinctive as orange safety vests. I suppose the greater visibility could be an advantage in certain emergency situations, for example evacuation of a train in a smoky station.
the greater visibility could be an advantage in certain emergency situations, for example evacuation of a train in a smoky station.
This was exactly my thinking. When covered in ash, a conductor in a blue suit, especially minus the hat, looks like a civilian. The orange vests set TA employees apart and probably contribute (marginally) to their ability to rally panicked, frightened, uncertain and confused crowds.
Not particularly confidence inducing that they have to be worn at all times, eh? I'd think carrying them in the cabs might suffice ....
If the vests are so uncomfortable, and the blue jackets make someone covered in dust/soot look like a civilian, why don't they have orange jackets with some sort of "easy-wipe" surface to get that dust off in case of such an event? Also, do you have to be a T/A worker to get those jackets or vests?
Also, do you have to be a T/A worker to get those jackets or vests?
If you want one with the TA or "Contractor" labels, yes. If you just need a generic safety vest, you can get them from the usual places, like Seton
Of course, using one to impersonate a TA worker is always a bad idea, but particularly so these days...
But let's be real here ... if the INTENT is "security" then it's a really bad idea. Any bad actor or criminal/terroristy type individual could easily stencil or sew on the appropriate logos. It's not like the TA vests are customized like currency to prevent fraud. If this is intended to stop Darius, it won't work.
For the entire time I was a conductor, I *despised* the monkeysuit. Back then it was blue shirt, Navy blue tie, stupid hat, huge shiny red abd blue and silver badge on da hat, the whole nine yards. As a motorman, I got to wear civvies and could charge up literally incognito, working the key and hauling ass inside and slamming the door. Conductors on the other hand were EASY to spot and had to stand out in the storm door at the "position" ... there was no escaping "customers" and no confusion as to what exactly an "answergrape" looked like.
Also got me some nice blessed cabtime with hunnies, but that was back before AIDS ... no advantage there either. :)
If it's disco vests, then maybe that should become the uniform. Wiglets gotta make some decisions, because I sure see some MIGHTY faulty logic here. Those vests crumple up real easy and could be donned in the course of an "event" without having to be permanently warned. Certainly this should be negotiated ...
Whoops ... voice recognition got the best of me there - meant to say "without having to be permanently WORN," not 'warned' ...
And finishing off the thought, folks on the platform KNOW what a conductor looks like, they're the one with their head out the window trying to play "beat the clock" while someone on the platform has dozens of distractions and questions which break your concentration. At least I was lucky back in my day, I could listen and talk while watching my ends and lights ... and when the indication fairy smiled, I rolled away on 'em ...
I can see some logic to having TA personnel on a PLATFORM wear vests to identify them to the customers, but conductors and motormen and women already have enough to do ... where convenient and not in obstruction to them performing their "official duties," any crewmember will try to assist a customer. But not if it makes the train late or compromises safety. Perhaps it might be time to bring back "platform conductors" if customers require assistance. Maybe even some TSS's ... help the customers instead of looking to trip up crews ... nah, too logical ...
I'm not following your argument. You're saying that motormen shouldn't have to wear the vests so that they can remain anonymous?
Horsepucky. I've said it before, I'll say it again. The PAYING customers are gonna ask questions. Always have, always will. And if conductors, or motormen, or station agents, or maintenance workers, or anyone else, doesn't like that ... then they should LEAVE the job and go into one of the declining few that has no customer service component whatsoever.
I am absolutely in support of every TA employee being identifiable to customers at all times. Unless and until the TA manages to put up intelligible route and service info, including ALL diversions (a real-time digital sign system, perhaps), then customers will have questions. It is the DUTY of any employee being paid by the TA to try to answer those questions in a polite, helpful way -- even if they don't know the answer, in which case they should say so and APOLOGIZE.
Bad attitude and rudeness have been tolerated for far, far too long. And, before you say it, yeah, I know, customers are rude, and stupid, and don't read the signs, and wouldn't be able to identify the right train if it spoke to them personally. I don't care. They are the paying customer and it is your damn job to do your best to help them out. Even if you don't want to. Even if you don't feel like it. Even if you've answered the same question 18 times today. Even if you have no idea what's going on with the trains either.
End of rant.
Wow ... GOOD rant ... but no, I'm merely saying that the TA should decide HOW to "identify the guilty" ... "yeah, I work for the MTA, so beat me" ... not like the job itself doesn't provide those frills. For what it's worth, I lasted only a year in the gig myself (actually LESS than a year) ... when ya get screwed from all ends, you can either suck it up and go for retirement, or you can say "I don't need this sheet" and walk like I did.
That all said though, I'm actually QUITE good at "customer service" ... what I'm NOT good at is being stabbed in all directions. In my current gig, our company's customers are QUITE satisfied because between us in the hole, and those who are our managers all follow the same sheet of music and people like myself don't get PUNISHED for helping out the customer. In fact, it's encouraged here that everyone who interacts with us in any way ALWAYS goes away happy. Unfortunately, it ain't like that for folks who work in the MTA.
Believe me, I *do* understand your rants. Your "service provider" is a political SAUSAGE FACTORY whose whims depend on the movement of politician's sphincter muscles and study groups and not some divine logic ... that's the problem. Lemme put it to you this way. The conductor is captain of the train. They are held responsible from on high for people getting dragged, and more importantly trains being late. Whether it's THEIR fault or not. Train late, we whack your peepee. PERIOD. Motorperson is responsible for not derailing the train or trying to make up for one station's losses in time. Both get yelled at if the train is late after a two hour trip.
It ISN'T their job to assure "customer satisfaction" ... their job is to get you there ALIVE and as close to schedule as railroad conditions permit. THAT'S ALL. Stop the train, open, announce, close doors, move along. That's as deep as it gets for train crews and as anyone who works or rides the rails knows, that's pretty much good enough.
If more "cuddling the customer" is required for "customer satisfaction" then all I can say is once upon a time, "Train SERVICE Supervisors" (TSS') were provided by God on platforms to assure TRAIN SERVICE SUPERVISION ... if anyone were entitled to being grabbed by customers for questioning, those are the guys ... there USED to be platform conductors and other supervisory staff as well. Rather than getting on the people who RUN the trains, perhaps the proper focal point of dissatisfaction might be directed to the lack of "support people" where the people ARE ... on the platform.
No offense intended here by any means, but yelling at conductors and motorpeople ISN'T the solution, never was, never will be ... they have OTHER jobs to do or the railroad gets EVEN SLOWER ... I don't think anyone in their right mind would want THAT ... sorry about that. In all sincerity, I don't disagree with you - I merely submit that conductors and motorpeople are NOT the right people to be tasked with this job unless you want to see a WHOLE LOT MORE 12-9's ... seriously.
Your "service provider" is a political SAUSAGE FACTORY whose whims depend on the movement of politician's sphincter muscles and study groups and not some divine logic ... that's the problem.
OK, but it's not particularly my problem. The reason that passengers behave the way that they do is that now the TA is running cleaner trains through nicer stations, the customers tend to want to know where those trains are going, over which tracks, etc. The general movement since the dog days of the late '70s has been toward better service in all its aspects. I'm saying the TA lags in employee attitudes, and I take great exception to your notion that motormen or whoever should be allowed to stay anonymous to escape contact with the public.
The conductor is captain of the train. They are held responsible from on high for people getting dragged, and more importantly trains being late. Whether it's THEIR fault or not. Train late, we whack your peepee. PERIOD. Motorperson is responsible for not derailing the train or trying to make up for one station's losses in time. Both get yelled at if the train is late after a two hour trip.
Again, not MY problem. I can imagine it'll spawn a weeks-long thread, but isn't that what unions are for?
It ISN'T their job to assure "customer satisfaction" ... their job is to get you there ALIVE and as close to schedule as railroad conditions permit. THAT'S ALL. Stop the train, open, announce, close doors, move along. That's as deep as it gets for train crews and as anyone who works or rides the rails knows, that's pretty much good enough.
Wrong, wrong, oh so wrong. I ride the rails and that is damned well NOT good enough! And it ain't good enough for the Straphangers, nor many of the elected representatives. If the TA could actually get proper customer service and information out of its employees, some of the politicking you complain about in the first graf would abate.
(Some, perhaps even many, are helpful and polite. But every bad apple tars 20 good ones. In customer service, we had a saying that every complaint letter represented 20 people out there who were angry. The few bad ones impugn ALL the good ones. I remember bad service, I don't remember good service unless it's really, remarkably, incredibly good ... cause in this consumer driven world, I *expect* good service when I pay my $$$. Getting me there alive AIN'T enough.)
Well ... I understand your point but respectfully disagree (otherwise, talk to the glove - heh) ... SERVICE is the domain of the authority - perhaps some retired positions in favor of "subway ombudsmen" ... but again, a political decision. Train crew can only do so much in a limited time and they do their best ... but ultimately, it REALLY isn't their job ... safety is ... schedules are. Convince the MTA adminiswigs differently, and a train can sit at a station for a half an hour until everyone's had their yayas ... most folks would prefer that the train MOVE however ... once again, no offense. As I said often when I was a conductor with a broken door that wouldn't let the train go until *I* fixed it) ... "Do you want me to sit here and answer your question, or would you rather the train move?" Fortunately it doesn't come down to that customer decision as often as it once did. :)
>>> If the TA could actually get proper customer service and information out of its employees, <<<
Your idea that every employee must be a customer service employee is not realistic and defeats the whole idea of division of labor which is one of the benefits of a large organization. The people assigned to running the trains are not there to for the purpose of giving helpful information to anyone who wants it. If the TA ever gets the token booths shut down and the token clerks out on the platforms as station agents then there will be someone who's main job is customer assistance. There is no reason that a T/O operating a train should have to open the door and talk to any passenger who knocks on it, nor is there any reason he/she should have to answer questions while walking through a station to get to a train. Obviously he/she should not hit or curse at the passengers, basic civility is always required, but giving tourists or other customers advice on how to get somewhere in the system is not the T/O's job. A C/R is somewhat of a customer service employee between stations when he/she is more of a passenger than a worker, but when the train pulls into a station, the C/R should be concentrating only on safely and quickly opening and closing the doors and getting the train moving again. The C/R should not be interacting at any length with any customers on the platform except to tell them to stand clear of the doors. If customers are confused in the subways, it is the fault of management in not providing the appropriate aids, either human customer service agents, or proper signs. Those with specific jobs to do should be able to do them without interruption.
Tom
If the TA ever gets ... token clerks out on the platforms as station agents then there will be someone [whose] main job is customer assistance.
True. But that isn't likely to happen for quite a while, and frankly, based on 20 years of interactions with token booth clerks, many of them are the LAST people I'd want TA customers interacting with.
There is no reason that a T/O operating a train should have to open the door and talk to any passenger who knocks on it
I agree. But I never proposed anything remotely like this.
nor is there any reason he/she should have to answer questions while walking through a station to get to a train.
I disagree, strongly. Any TA employee should and can be expected to answer questions about the system to the best of his/her ability. It is a CUSTOMER SERVICE organization. Or at least should be.
A C/R is somewhat of a customer service employee between stations when he/she is more of a passenger than a worker, but when the train pulls into a station, the C/R should be concentrating only on safely and quickly opening and closing the doors and getting the train moving again. The C/R should not be interacting at any length with any customers on the platform except to tell them to stand clear of the doors.
Unrealistic, and I disagree. People talk to C/Rs, always have, always will.
If customers are confused in the subways, it is the fault of management in not providing the appropriate aids, either human customer service agents, or proper signs.
That may be, and MUCH remains to be done by the TA in improving signs, train route & timing info and general assistance. Having a designated customer service rep at each station would help.
But I stand firmly by my point that every TA employee, especially including train operating staff, should provide the best info he or she has ... and expect to have to do so ... as part of basic customer service by the TA. And I think the resistance to this concept demonstrates the entrenched attitude that "operating trains is my job; satisfying customers isn't." And that I have a major problem with.
In reality, customer should be on the train when asking the C/R a question between stations. Not on the platform. You ask them POLITELY to step on the train and then the question will be answered. Then its up to them whether or not they want to get on.
Your idea that every employee must be a customer service employee is not realistic and defeats the whole idea of division of labor which is one of the benefits of a large organization. The people assigned to running the trains are not there to for the purpose of giving helpful information to anyone who wants it. If the TA ever gets the token booths shut down and the token clerks out on the platforms as station agents then there will be someone who's main job is customer assistance. There is no reason that a T/O operating a train should have to open the door and talk to any passenger who knocks on it, nor is there any reason he/she should have to answer questions while walking through a station to get to a train. Obviously he/she should not hit or curse at the passengers, basic civility is always required, but giving tourists or other customers advice on how to get somewhere in the system is not the T/O's job. A C/R is somewhat of a customer service employee between stations when he/she is more of a passenger than a worker, but when the train pulls into a station, the C/R should be concentrating only on safely and quickly opening and closing the doors and getting the train moving again. The C/R should not be interacting at any length with any customers on the platform except to tell them to stand clear of the doors. If customers are confused in the subways, it is the fault of management in not providing the appropriate aids, either human customer service agents, or proper signs. Those with specific jobs to do should be able to do them without interruption.
I have to (partially) disagree. The idea of a division of labor, whatever its theoretical appeal, has no basis in reality from the passenger perspective. Every uniformed TA employee is the TA, or at least represents it, as far as passengers are concerned. As such, they should be available to answer questions, at least to a reasonable extent - for example, a C/R shouldn't have to delay a train in a station in order to provide lengthy directions. But in most instances, they should be expected to deal with the public in a proper manner and cannot rely on "it's not my job."
>>> they should be available to answer questions, at least to a reasonable extent - for example, a C/R shouldn't have to delay a train in a station in order to provide lengthy directions. <<<
I think we are on the same side. Giving a simple yes or no answer generally falls into the area of being civil, but neither a T/O or a C/R walking to a train at Main Street Flushing due to leave within a minute should be expected to give a detailed answer to a question like "How do I get to the Cloisters?"
Tom
The paying public thinks of the C/R as being the TA's customer service representative, whether that is part of his/her job description or not. How do you suggest that the TA can educate the public that this is not the case? And putting a TSS on every platform doesn't sound like an economical solution.
Think I just answered that one ... but for a city of people who have a representative government (or so many believe) it certainly IS a fair question as to who calms the geese and who keeps the schedule.
If "customer service" were truly the religion, and the train conductor was truly the "pez dispenser of slack" then no one would yell at the crew if the train was a half hour late at the terminal owing to "customer question time" in the British sense of "question time" ... but if management was to stop yelling at conductors and motorpeople for the train being late, I'd bet you could get a really neat sidewalk act out of everyone including top hat and cane. :)
All a matter of rules and enforcement.
"And putting a TSS on every platform doesn't sound like an economical solution. "
It is not economical... but it is probably necessary, especially during rush hours. If people need assistance, it must be provided.
If we were to put 200 agents on the platforms during rush hours (M-F) at $30,000 per agent per year we are talking about budget of only 6 Million Dollars. Maybe that is a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of things, it really is not.
But if you need to put a price tag on service, there it is.
Elias
It ISN'T their job to assure "customer satisfaction" ... their job is to get you there ALIVE and as close to schedule as railroad conditions permit. THAT'S ALL. Stop the train, open, announce, close doors, move along. That's as deep as it gets for train crews and as anyone who works or rides the rails knows, that's pretty much good enough.
I tend to agree, and there are good reasons why this is the case.
On the Stockholm subway, where I work, as part of my motorman's training I got a little brochure describing near-accidents in which passengers were close to getting dragged by trains and killed (in some instances, they did get dragged a short distance down the platform). One such instance was where a T/O in the act of closing his doors was asked a question by someone on the platform. He took his eyes off the side of the train to speak to the person. When he looked at the train again, he saw a little clump of people around his last car, but didn't see that a woman had gotten caught in the doors of the last car. Only when someone used the emergency door-opening control did the train stop (before dragging the woman into the metal gate at the end of the platform, thank God).
The same brochure started with the following proclamation (my translation from Swedish):
"Our priorities are, in this order:
- Safety
- Punctuality
- Other service"
And that's the way it HAS to be. It should never be forgotten that keeping the trains running on time is in itself a service, and one of the most important ones we provide.
Regards,
Tim
Yep ... but I've decided to let the argument sit - folks who have no idea of what it's really about seem to think that it's the purpose of train crews to perform sex acts (with top hat and cane) rather than looking after the safety of the "customers" ... and many who ARE with the railroad have tried to explain that they try to be as nice as is practically possible, but apparently people would prefer the sex act over being killed. Guess there's no point in arguing ...
seem to think that it's the purpose of train crews to perform sex acts
True story from 3 weeks ago. Sundays I worked the W from Stillwell to Pacific. As the train arrives at Pacific southbound, I'm in the last car and have to walk to the front. My C/R makes an announcement that the train will be leaving in about 8 minutes. A fairly good-looking woman who has just run down the stairs and onto the train hears the announcement, steps off the train, looks at me (recognizing me for a Transit worker, even though I wasn't wearing a vest) and asks, "eight minutes?". I say yes and her response is "F*** ME!" In the interests of keeping the paying customers happy, should I have obliged?
Heh. 8 minutes was cutting it a bit short in my day, but if they were nice, a quickie wasn't out of the question. After all, sacrifices MUST be made in the interest of "customer service." :)
Oh ... and don't forget to wrap your little TSS in a vest. ("handle" to laypersons) ...
>>> In the interests of keeping the paying customers happy, should I have obliged? <<<
To be helpful you could have at least asked her for her phone number. :-)
Tom
8 minutes? To me that's quite a long time.
Motormen already wear uniforms. I do not see how anonymity could co-exist with wearing a uniform.
The problem that I have with wearing vests are that they are rather uncomfortable to wear in the summer, they reflect on the windshield when I operate during the daytime reducing visibility, and they fall apart all the time. It's a pain in the arse to constantly have to refasten the snaps while wearing the vest.
I've already asked a friend in another department to get me a busted, beat up old vest. At least the comfort portion should be eliminated.
And in regards to your rant with customer service, most (but not all) of us do the best we can. I help the passengers to the best of my ability, and can answer questions in English and in French for tourists. Part of the good things about this job is helping people. Of course the ones with really dumb questions get one line answers like walking up to my position, seeing that it's an F train then asking me "Is this an F train?"
No, it's a Y train. As in "Y are you asking me this question?"
The problem ... with wearing vests are that they are rather uncomfortable to wear in the summer, they reflect on the windshield when I operate during the daytime reducing visibility, and they fall apart all the time. ... At least the comfort portion should be eliminated.
Now those reasons I can fully understand and support. They are solvable problems.
in regards to your rant with customer service, most (but not all) of us do the best we can. I help the passengers to the best of my ability, and can answer questions in English and in French for tourists.
I believe you. I noted in my response to Selkirk's response that sadly the few bad apples impugn all of you who DO provide good service.
I like that you speak other languages. I'd be strongly in favor of paying an increment to conductors who demonstrate fluency in other languages, along with some kind of badge (a flag?) so customers know that conductor speaks more than English. (Though don't get me started on the need for standard, enunciated, clear English .... )
Of course the ones with really dumb questions get one line answers like walking up to my position, seeing that it's an F train then asking me "Is this an F train?" ...
There are NO dumb questions from PAYING customers. To me, you grit your teeth, grin, and say, "Sure is ... see that big orange circle with an F in it? That's how you tell it's an F train! Have a good ride."
Your response "Y train" response is just confusing. It doesn't teach the customer anything. It may make YOU feel better, but insulting someone who just paid $1.50 is inexcusable. Do your best to smile, and remember that you too have had instances of brain fade and utter denseness now and then. Educate, don't insult, and we'll all be a little better off. Thx.
The last part was a joke with the "Y train" thing. I just give a "yes" or "no" for dumb questions, and that's it. But boy, have I had some humdingers.
As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing as a dumb question from a tourist. Just being in NYC can be overwhelming in itself, trying to navigate through the large subway system can be quite difficult for a newbie.
As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing as a dumb question from a tourist. Just being in NYC can be overwhelming in itself, trying to navigate through the large subway system can be quite difficult for a newbie.
And honestly, that is truly all I'm asking. If only more of your counterparts felt and acted the same.
In my observation, the express/local thing is especially baffling to non-NYers, as are the many trains running to different destinations along the same section of trunk. Sixth Avenue, for instance, where trains may go to UWS/Bronx or Queens, express or local, etc. I think a second generation of simplified maps for those stations, showing the routes and the stops, might help.
Re:Tourists
>>>>>>>>>>>And honestly, that is truly all I'm asking. If only more of your counterparts felt and acted the same.
IMO, even though it's part of their job, the only way for that to happen on an individual basis is to leave the city and become a tourist themselves. The uncertainty and sometimes vulnerability of being in a new place can humble a person. It certainly did for me.
The first time I went to London however, after about an hour, I maneuvered and used the tubes like I was living there for 30 years. Took to the Underground like I take to the NYC Subway.
When I went to Paris though, it was a whole different ball of wax. The then language barrier certainly did not help, but the long corridors, dark areas, and the unsafe feeling of riding the RER commuter lines put me in a place that I was unaccustomed to being in.
Even though I go to Paris (and London) every year, there just is something about the RER that takes me back to riding the NYC trains in the 80's. The graffiti, smell of urine, a big lack of a police presence, and the sometimes loneliness of being in an empty car puts you on edge. Not to mention the very high crime rates in the RER (according to www.france2.fr, the already high crime rates spiked up another 3% through the last 4 months).
Going to Paris has changed my outlook of living in New York.
Heh. Makes you misty eyed for the strange thumping on the cab door? Like someone might want some HANDLE TIME? :)
C'Mon bro ... playing "what's that smell?" ensures that your paycheck clears. Heh.
playing "what's that smell?" ensures that your paycheck clears.
What on earth are you trying to say here?
It was a reminiscence of how bad the system had gotten with a reminder of it being like that in Paris now ... you had to be there. It's a train crew thing ...
Does this train go to the next stop? I'm sorry, but that is a dumb question and I have had it asked to me.
No, actually, this is an express, the next stop is...
There are NO dumb questions from PAYING customers. To me, you grit your teeth, grin, and say, "Sure is ... see that big orange circle with an F in it? That's how you tell it's an F train! Have a good ride."
Standing on the platform at Ditmars Blvd and getting asked which way does this train go?, while the customer points south with one hand and north with the other.
Standing at ANY terminal platform with only one train in the station and getting asked which train is leaving next?
Getting on a train on my way to work, letting the doors close behind me even though others are still coming onto the platform and getting hit and asked why didn't you hold the doors, a**hole?
These are three examples of DUMB questions, whether or not the person asking has paid a fare. They are dumb questions because they asked solely from the depths of stupidity. Reasonable questions will always get an answer - in Zman's scenario, I can always assume that the person is functionally illiterate in English and so wouldn't recogonize the letter F if it came up and bit him.
Standing on the platform at Ditmars Blvd and getting asked which way does this train go?, while the customer points south with one hand and north with the other.
ANSWER: "This way" (pointing) or "To Manhattan" (pointing)
Standing at ANY terminal platform with only one train in the station and getting asked which train is leaving next?
Not all terminals are obviously the end of the line (think Times Square on the 7 and others). Not all customers know that a station is a terminal. Not all customers know enough about trains to look for bumper blocks. And once in a while the train that leaves first IS the one that arrives last. ANSWER: "This one" (pointing).
Getting on a train on my way to work, letting the doors close behind me even though others are still coming onto the platform and getting hit and asked why didn't you hold the doors, a**hole?
ANSWER: "Because it delays the train and makes a lot of people late."
There! That wasn't so hard, now, was it?
Y'all
We are going about this the wrong way. In truth, people's perceptions of the MTA can be moved in a positive direction relatively easily with good interactions. Far scarier, their perceptions can be trashed for a long time over relatively minor bad experiences.
Yes...dealing with the public sucks, but, if you have to do it, you only make your life easier treating the customer as if they are always right. Goodwill is easier to create than recover, especially among those customers that already have goodwill built up in your favor. Simple marketing here y'all.
For example, this weekend, I took the G to the 7 for a Chinese New Year Party in Flushing. Looking at the map, I see that there is new, free Metrocard transfer between the G and 7 at 23rd-Ely and 45th. I get outside, and find a shuttle bus running the #7 from Vernon to Queensborough Plaza. Well wadda ya know...the transfer wasn't free at QP, and I lost the last $1.50 on my card for it. And getting my $1.50 back? hahahahaha. nothing brings out agent surliness like asking them to just let me pass rather than have to send in my card!
Sure I could have just ridden the G out to Roosevelt for the internal transfer, but I like wanted to see how convenient the transfer was, and whether or not I can still use the G to the places in Queens I like to go on weekends (some in Woodside where a 7 transfer before Roosevelt is easier). My answer is now no. I am now taking the B61 bus Fort Greene to LIC to avoid the possibility of it happening again. Money is money.
It seems small. Maybe no one cares. But I was an easy customer to keep happy if things are done right and friendly. I stay with the MTA of course, but the bus is now an option. It all adds up.
Ditmars Blvd - There is NO track north of the station. The only thing in that direction is a view of the Bronx. The train can't go that way! Why waste my time and theirs asking?
Asking, which train is leaving first, implies that you know it's a terminal (or some place where two trains are stopping across the platform, heading to the same place and both are there at the same time), otherwise you'd be asking, which way does this train go? Asking it when only one train is visible causes me to think you're not paying attention to what's going on around you.(the scary thing is, if you point to the empty track and say "That one", they wait for it! sometimes even letting the existing one close down and leave. This is stupid.
You really want me to answer a question - any question - after you hit me first? I've met walls that are smarter than that.
Ditmars Blvd - There is NO track north of the station. The only thing in that direction is a view of the Bronx. The train can't go that way! Why waste my time and theirs asking?
Because sometimes, Alex, people don't think. Or aren't very smart. Or are having a bad day. And you know what? Those people STILL deserve respect, politeness and decent treatment.
Asking, which train is leaving first, implies that you know it's a terminal ... Asking it when only one train is visible causes me to think you're not paying attention to what's going on around you. ... This is stupid.
And sometimes people are stupid. And they STILL deserve respect, politeness and decent treatment.
You really want me to answer a question - any question - after you hit me first? I've met walls that are smarter than that.
OK, I missed in the first posting that the person hit you. I think a glare is an appropriate response. But calling another poster (me) "as stupid as a wall" kinda indicates a lack of respect ... and if that carries over to your interactions with customers ... not only do I not wanna be on your trains, ever, I don't want you working for the TA that I patronize and spend a lot of money with.
I'm not arguing that it's a pleasant job being a TA employee. It's not, often. But if you can't handle interacting -- politely, respectfully, helpfully -- with the paying customers, which is an important part of the job, get another damn job.
Did not mean to imply that you in particular are "as stupid as a wall" (which was not my quote); I meant that if someone hits me and then asks a question (of the dumb variety, IMO), there are walls smarter than that person.
But if you can't handle interacting -- politely, respectfully, helpfully -- with the paying customers, which is an important part of the job, get another damn job
I can be as polite, respectful and helpful as anyone; however, in your turn, you (and again, not you in particular) as a customer should also be polite and respectful to me. Hitting me, spitting at me, throwing things at me, cursing, yelling etc are not ways to get my co-operation, my respect or my help.
you (and again, not you in particular) as a customer should also be polite and respectful to me. Hitting me, spitting at me, throwing things at me, cursing, yelling etc are not ways to get my co-operation, my respect or my help.
OK, that one I agree with completely. No one should ever be hit, threatened or (mostly) cursed at.
My point, way back when in the thread, was that many times -- and I mean dozens over the past 20 years -- I've *politely* asked questions and been (1) ignored; (2) snarled at; (3) told to "read the map," "look at the train," etc.; or (4) given the more subtle variety of attitude that clearly conveys, "You pathetic little subhuman ... " And I really am NOT rude, I don't think. This stuff unfortunately threatens to overwhelm the equal or greater number of polite, helpful responses I've gotten -- and that ratio, in many parts of the private sector, would get the perpetrators bounced out on their backsides.
And unfortunately, you and 19 other C/Rs or T/Os being reasonable and polite is completely outweighed by the one bozo. And you probably already know who he/she is, 'cause you work with him/her.
Re being ignored, I get the impression that some C/Rs just don't have the mental ability to juggle 2 serious thoughts at once. They can answer your question or they can think about the doors and the people. So they ignore you and deal with the doors. I don't like it when it happens to me, and I'd prefer if they were better at multitasking, but I sort of understand it.
It is not really possible to desireable to multi-task a serious (safety related) job such as closing and protecting the doors with something else that requires thoughtfulness. Sure, I can chew gum and talk at the same time, and I can chew gum and close doors at the same time, but I cannot give a coherent response and attend to the safety of the train correctly at the same time. When closing doors, your attention needs to be on the platform and on the doors. Safety First.
How about the idea to remove the present conductor boards, and to mount them on a railing on the platform, so that they will be infront of and *below* the conductor's position. This railing would also keep passengers about five feet away from the conductor, and would have a sign on them facing the passengers: "The Train Conductor cannot answer your questions." and then in smaller print information about the conductor's duties, train safety, and where to find correct information.
Perhaps there should be an automated information kiosk on the platform at this location, that can give basic information and would have a phoneset that would connect to "central" where an operator would know where the customer was (by the phone connection) and could call up maps for the customer's information right on the screen in front of him/her.
Well, her anyway... guys don't ask directions, remember!
Elias
I *like* your idea ... and for those who are coming to think that old Selkirk is Satan incarnate, I was ALWAYS happy to answer a question, crack a joke and make anyone's trip on MY train a very pleasant experience. However, there are people out there who truly deserve a good old fashioned Bronx a$$-kicking for polluting the gene pool.
"Customer service" is NOT the job of conductors or operators though we'll all try our best. "Our" job is to not KILL YOU by slipping up on what we get paid for - making sure your arm isn't stuck in a door until you hit a brick wall and to make sure that the train doesn't wrap itself around steel and kill you ... now let's be real ... would you rather be ALIVE or coddled? 2 out of 3 vote for life I'd bet ...
>>> ... and for those who are coming to think that old Selkirk is Satan incarnate...<<<
You mean you're not!?! Rats!
Peace,
ANDEE
But I'm WILLING TO LEARN! :)
"Asking [which track is the next departure] when only one train is visible causes me to think you're not paying attention to what's going on around you.(the scary thing is, if you point to the empty track and say 'That one', they wait for it! sometimes even letting the existing one close down and leave. This is stupid."
Have you ever been to the O'Hare terminal of the Chicago Blue Line?? It's not at all a rare experience that the train in the station isn't going out next but instead the next train out hasn't arrived yet.
Have you ever been to Howard terminal on the Chicago Red Line? Howard is the southern terminal of the Purple and Yellow lines as well as the northern terminal of the Red Line. Again, it's not uncommon for the train sitting there to NOT be the next Red into the city but instead a Purple waiting for its scheduled time to head back north, AWAY from the city.
I don't know if New York is somehow radically different than that, but since I can easily think of two places on an existing transit system where the next train out may not be here yet but another train is, the question, IMHO, is by definition NOT STUPID!!!!!!
If you are at one of those stations (and I will admit that I've never been to Chicago) with a train sitting there and the opposing track empty, would it not be a fair guess that if you asked someone, train crew or not, which train was leaving first, they would look at you with afunny look and point at the only train available at that time. Yes sometimes the train that hasn't arrived will be the next one to leave, but I have no advance knowledge of that. If there's one train, it's the next to leave.
The best question is when I worked 242 Street. "When did this become the last stop doesn't the No.1 train go to Yonkers".
... only on flatbeds. :)
Having been in retail for almost 30 years I can tell you this:
Like it or not. THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE WRONG. Think about it. I don't like it either but, it's the route we've chosen.
Peace,
ANDEE
Didn't say they were wrong; said they were dumb. The list of WRONG is a lot longer.
One day on the 3, I had a woman holding the doors with her babay stroller while waiting for her friend (customer is wrong). During the course of the pleading for her to get out of the doors, she said, "You know, you're nothing but an a**hole!" (I believe this counts as wrong also). Realizing I was fighting a lost cause, my response - "You're right. I must be. I'm arguing with you." - finally got her out of the door.
>>> THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT <<<
That's in retail, not in government monopolies.
Tom
>>> THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT <<<
That's in retail, not in government monopolies.
Even in government monopolies the paying customers have a right to expect helpful, respectful service. Even MORE so, in theory, 'cause they have no other options and the monopoly's employees are benefitting from their monopoly status by not having to compete for jobs under real capitalism.
But I'm curious. Are you saying that it doesn't work that way in the real world (which is changing, albeit slowly) or that it SHOULDN'T?
Try calling Microsoft for *real* support sometime. And they're private sector. :)
You can have a full 5 course meal while waiting for Microslow to get on the line.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I personally prefer to make a lasagna...HAHAHA
Peace,
ANDEE
And then they tell you to try rebooting. DUH ...
*rotflmfao*
Mooooooooo.......
Stuart, RLine86Man
>>> But I'm curious. Are you saying that it doesn't work that way in the real world <<<
I am saying the idea that "The customer is always right" does not work that way in the real world, especially when dealing with the (kinder and gentler) IRS.
Tom
Your miss the basic question: why does a motorman have to wear a safety vest while he is operating his train?
I would hope the guy in the blue suit who is in a trian cab is a TA worker...
Then why have me dress up in full uniform if the safety vest is what stands out? Let me put on a pair of jeans, a nice pair of sneakers, a casual shirt or sweater and then I'll put the safety vest on and go down the road like that. It'll have the same point you're making.
re safety vests making conductors and T/O's more visible to the public in emergencies
Then why have me dress up in full uniform if the safety vest is what stands out? Let me put on a pair of jeans, a nice pair of sneakers, a casual shirt or sweater and then I'll put the safety vest on and go down the road like that. It'll have the same point you're making
That's true. It may be that the uniform requirement is meant to serve other purposes as well, most notably ensuring that TA employees who come into contact with the public are dressed to a certain degree of neatness, or formality, or whatever. In other words, if the employees were free to wear what they want, even within guidelines, you'd have some people push the envelope, so to speak, and dress in unacceptable ways. This happens in just about any workplace that has a "business casual" policy - some people will be very neatly dressed, others less so, and a few will be indistinguishable from skells.
Well then, if I ever have to evacuate my train in a smoky tunnel, I PROMISE to wear my safety vest!
I suppose the greater visibility could be an advantage in certain emergency situations, for example evacuation of a train in a smoky station.
Peter, we ALWAYS had to wear them in situations such as you describe, as well as any time we were working in the yards or walking on the roadbed.
I do not like it either. I had to wear one last week on the L, and let me tell you, it sucked. The sun was shining bright, and when the yellow reflection hit the windshield, I hit my horn thinking that I was passing yellow flags. From what I've heard, the TA will be conducting efficiency testing to make sure that the crews are wearing their vests.
The memo issued prior by Larry Reuter stated that the vest must be worn while in a customer accessible area. A train cab does not classify as a customer accessible area. Also, a memo put out by the C line supt. states that the vest does not need to be worn while operating, but must be worn when outside the cab. Whether the new bulletin states this exception or not remains to be seen.
I know that I've got a beat up old vest somewhere around here, I hope I can find it. Otherwise, I've got to break this brand new one in. And let me tell you, it's uncomfortable.
Oh, goody! More efficiency testing! I had two run-ins with the 'announcement police' over the past 3 weeks, now this. No one on the V line as of Friday night has made any mention of this vest issue yet - I guess I'm in for a surprise when I go in tomorrow afternoon.
I don't like it as well. It just makes us more of a moving target. Do you really need a vest to show your a C/R or T/O?
You all know whats next right??
The bulletin distinctly states that T/Os must wear the vest while operating.
I am a S/A working as a lunch relief. I wear a vest because I asked a supervisor who advised me that I did have to wear a vest based on Reuter's Memo. I do not mind wearing the vest. Lots of people wear navy colored uniforms. Wearing the international orange draws attention from customers. I have been stopped on a platform by a customer informing me of a sick customer on the platform. I drafted that person to watch the sick customer while I went to the booth to request EMS. I then returned to the sick customer.
*applaudes theatrical-like* I know at least there's the S/A's (some of 'em anyway) who care 'bout sick passengers.
Stuart, RLine86Man
When that Memo came out the said the same thing to me but since it wasn't a Bulletin I didn't pay it no mind. However the TSS also said you don't have to wear the vest is Transverse Cabs.
Now that the Bulletin came out that has all changed. Now I'm fighting with the snaps.
>>>>>>>>>>Now I'm fighting with the snaps.
EXACTLY! I've gotten so tired of the snaps coming apart by as little as a gust of wind. I finally had to duct tape the snaps to the vest. If it looks crappy, so what. Make better vests. This is the 3rd one that I've tried in the past week, and believe it or not, the other two were way worse. One didn't even have snaps!
For the time being, I don't have to worry about my vests because I'm breaking in new crew for 180th Street #5. Automotive grade Velcro stickum tape fixes loose vest straps like inspection wire holds the Redbirds together. CI Peter
You said you had to wear your vest on the L last week. This was before the new bulletin came out and when the L was the only line enforcing the vest policy. My question is, Were you told to put it on or did you do it because everyone else was doing it? The reason I ask is because I was on the L in December (With a copy of the C line memo in my pocket) And a certain Superintendent came up in my face at Myrtle Avenue and demanded to know where my vest was (Without IDing himself) I told him it was in my bag and I have a memo saying they don't need to be worn on trains. He ordered me to put it on and asked to see the memo. I showed him the memo and he took it away from me! Good thing I have several copies! We need to have this policy abolished as soon as possible. Vests are SAFTEY GEAR AND NOT PART OF OUR UNIFORM.
-Mark W.
Mark, you've re-surfaced! Drop me an email please, I need
to ask you a question.
>>>>>>>>My question is, Were you told to put it on or did you do it because everyone else was doing it?
I was told to put it on by the Dispatcher at Canarsie when I signed on to the payroll. The L line management had been kind of anal recently, so I didn't want to make any waves. And believe me, I know which superintendent you are talking about.
I had also seen the C line memo, and that one makes more sense. Now it's been overridden. Hopefully, I'll see you at the next union meeting next Wednesday.
What is the L Line management trying to Prove?
I know they swiched some Supt. around. The A Div. now has 3 Supts from B Div and a group of 12 TSS's from B Div. to A Div. coming to the road very soon.
On the Flip side the A J/M/Z have Supt's from A Div.
I just think the L line management simply wants things done by the book. But still, this vest stuff is crap. If you want us to stick out like a sore thumb, then issue us orange coats/jackets like the station personnel in London.
Thos of us who live upstate often have to break out the whitewash as hunting season approaches and the "hunters" from Jersey make the rounds up here ... we have to paint "C O W" on our bovines so they don't get mistaken for bullmeese ...
Perhaps we might want to skip to the chase and pain on the back of each employee, "MTA MEAT - KICK ME" ... :)
i wore them doing road construction & construction ...so what ??
lol!
In the A division, a bulletin was put out at the beginning of the month. I agree with you, Road Dogg. This vest thing is pure bull. What is the point of uniform? Have you seen the new vest with the plastic pocket to put your EPIC in? The only time the vest should be worn is in the yards, platform duty, and when on tracks(evacuations etc...) And I like how certain terminals make up their own rules about it as well. 242St-VC wants you to wear it at all times, while on the property. And the vest is not a sturdy piece. I always have to clip my vest back together btwn stations. I cant wait to see whats next?
It wasnt a bulletin, it was a faxed memo from the Superintendent earlier this month. The bulletin came out last week.
From the New B Div Supt that came over??
Didn't I fax you a copy of this memorandum.? It was from the ACTO in the IRT. It is now over ruled by bulletin 10-02, now the RULE.
I got an email about a warning saying they where going to enforce it but not a copy of the memo.
When I go back to work I going to get a copy of 10-02.
242 whats you to wear it whenever on Property?? That Bullsh#t!! It suppose to be when your in preformance of your duties.
I want you to Email me on who is given that order.
Once I come into the terminal the Vest and radio come off.
I don't think I'm coming back to 242 if they keep this up.
The bulletin states "while on duty". Once you are signed out, take the freaking thing off! Or better yet, LET THEM take you O/S when you are off duty. You will only get the next day off with pay while you go to Labor Relations to get restored without discipline. In addition, you do NOT need to wear it Before signing on. They are not going to pay you walkin time, and compensation does not pay you for 59 minutes up to your report time. Once you are signed on, you are subject to rule 4B. You shouldn't have to run away from a terminal because of petty orders that have little weight, you should stand up and fight. 12 handbrakes on a 10 car train.
Well I'm glad you currecting me now. OK so we all have to where them while we are on duty. However now the issue is about being Plublic Accessable. Now are they saying Operating Cabs and Crew rooms are accesable to the Plubic?? I have a feeling they will have to rewrite this bulletin.
I really don't feel like visiting Labor Relations if I'm right or wrong.
About running away from 242 I already did for now but I'll came back when the No.1 goes to South Ferry or if I can pick a job with 1 trip to Chambers and 1 to New Lots. I could of done it for 4 Days but I was feeling stressed so I had to leave.
Stand up and fight I can see how 12 handbrakes would do it but it doesn't work on a R142. They have parking brakes which apply after dumping the train.
The only thing I can think about is Operate the doors the way B Div C/R's operate and make announcements and operate Like I'm working on the (N)ever (R)arely (W)henever Lines. Then the Million doller question 16:49 Pelham where did you lose all that time??
I've read everything in this damn thread and all I can say is I'm glad I live in Baltimore. This vest crap for T/O's and C/R's is just plain anal management at work.
If the cabs are locked, then they aren't "public" areas. If you are a platform conductor I could see it, but if you are a uniformed employee the public (aka "customers" aaka "sheep") should recognize you as a TA employee.
What's next? Vests for bus operators?
Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of "Screw the Employees".
>>> This vest crap for T/O's and C/R's is just plain anal management at work. <<<
Which brings up the question, where is your UNION? If the vests are so uncomfortable, management has made a unilateral change of working conditions to your detriment. Instead of just bitching to Subtalk, you should be bitching to your shop stewards.
Tom
By saying it is a SAFETY issue the union really cannot fight it.
BULLSHIRT! I've got 5 across! By NOT requiring a PHOTO ID to be displayed, the Tshirt has been earned. Forget which thread now I mentioned it in, but sat in the village bar with a couple of buddies of mine who work for both the Assembly and the Senate. Showed them the bulletin ... they were in HYSTERICS ... the bulletin is *SO* flawed in what it's trying to implement and how it's trying to justify it that it's laughable. Whiz in the bottle time for the adminiswigs who dreamt that up, devoid of ANY SEMBLANCE of what law enforcement would consider "safety" ...
Bottom line, if the union kicks up a fuss, the legislature would be amused to hear about it ... I'll leave it there, but lemme put it to you THIS way - legislative sausage packers actually blew BEER through their noses laughing their teats off at that "bulle-whatever" ... :)
Well look. You can buy red vests in any saftey store in the country.
Maybe I should buy one (I already have a yellow hard hat) and put the words "RAIL FAN" on it in big letters...
Elias
Hello there; Does anybody out there know in what subway station Simon and Garfunkel were photographed in on the cover of their "Wednesday 3AM" Lp (1966)?? The train in the station blurrily looks like an IRT 1938 Worlds Fair Car. However, the station name on the wall is cut off but almost looks like 5 Ave. I was thinking that it was the #7 Station, but the station in the photo does not look like an island platform station. Anybody have any ideas??? Anybody have the LP????? Tony Leong
almost looks like 5 Ave. I was thinking that it was the #7 Station
It's a Fifth Avenue. I vote IND.
Mark
It looks like 53rd/5th and that looks like an R1/9. Wednesday Morning 3AM is from 1965. Sounds of Silence from 1966.
The Sounds of Silence on the Wednesday Morning album is an acoustic version. A year later someone at Columbia Records added the band behind them.
And yes, it was 53/5 on the E. I can tell by the colored tiles behind them.
Quick question. Why do the LIAR M3 MU cars have that large air conditioning vent that like takes up two seats and vents out the side of the train. What makes this necessary in them and not the M1's.
That's a vent for pulling in air to cool the traction motors. The M-1s don't have that, and are sometimes subject to sucking in snow and other bad things and shorting out. This was one of the few changes made between the M-1 and M-3.
BTW, I believe the M-2/4/6 cars have their intakes on the roof, much like the Arrow and Silverliners have. Same reason.
The Morrison Knudsen built CTA cars also have air ducts for cooling traction motors.
Periodically in recent years, there has been mention of resurrecting a 42nd St trolley continuing south to the Javits Ctr. Haven't heard anything recently. In light of Mayor Bloomberg's desire to extend the #7 to Javits at a cost of billions (and, in the process, further side-tracking the 2nd Av subway), wouldn't it make more sense to access the Javits with a much cheaper but highly efficient, speedy light rail running in a sort of limited ROW on 42nd and 12th Av? (No need to resolve the question here of what happens to the overhead wire during the Macy's Parade of floats.) Sounds like a completely logical solution to me.
The problem is where to put the traffic displaced from 42d St. Maybe it would work if you started the trolley on 42 and 8th Ave, going west, with a transfer from all the Times Sq. subways.
The problem with a dedicated ROW on 42nd St. is the fact that neither of the side streets to the north and south, 41st and 43rd, are through streets from the east side to the west side. Forty-first is blocked by Bryant Park and the NY Public Library and by Tudor City, while and 43rd by Grand Central (44th St. also) and Tudor City.
So by putting dedicated trolley lanes on 42nd, you will force traffic off there and into a lot of detours onto 40th and 45th Streets to get around the Grand Central area, and on 44th and 40th to bypass Tudor City, while more crosstown traffic coming from the Lincoln Tunnel will move over to 34th St., which already is pretty much maxed out handling vehicles going from the Lincoln to the Queens Midtown tunnel.
If the city wants to put limits on vehicle usage in Manhattan a la the post-Sept. 11 restrictions or limit parking on streets like 40th and 45th to improve traffic flow there, then a dedicated ROW on 42nd could work. But the DOT will have to look at the traffic flow problems before any light rail line down the street was begun, since not only passenger vehicles, but routing of commercial trucks and vans would also have to be taken into consideration.
In addition to the other objections stated in this thread, the effective veto on *any* streetcar lines in Manhattan is the problem a maintenance facility. Where? The only possiblity is the Penn Yards, and that's unlikely. There'd be a bloodbath if you tried to build one in Central Park. Sending them out to one of the Queens or Brooklyn yards founders on the problem of overhead power vs. 3rd rail. You'd have to tow them with a diesel engine over the Williamsburgh Bridge to who knows where.
It's buses or subways.
Does anyone know where I could get some info on the former Manhattan trolleys (in particular routes, but also when they were built and closed etc)?
Several books have been published on the subject. The ones in my collection include Third Avenue Railway: A Cityscape of Manhattan and The Bronx (2001) and Across New York By Trolley (1975), both by Frederick A. Kramer; Third Avenue Railway System In Manhattan (1996), author unidentified; and New York Railways: The Green Line (1994), author unidentified. And I'm sure that there are others. The only one of those currently available, as far as I know, is the newest one, but the others turn up from time to time at swap meets.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
RON S BOOKS AND RAILS AND SHAFTS HAS SOME OF THE BOOKS, BOTH HAVE WEB SITES, EXCUSE THE CAPITOLS
My friend the mouse has given you some sources ... here's some items to consider:
Manhattan didn't have overhead wire, so the trolleys were:
- Elevated, powered by cable & steam (well these were never trolleys)
- at street level powered by storage battery, cable & electric line in a conduit (the same conduit that was used for the cable)
The museum at Branford, CT has a beautifly restored car from 1892 that was first cable, then elect. via conduit & finaly trolley pole when it went to the Bronx. They also have a car from Manhattan that went to Vienna after WW II. Our friend Anou-e-mouse loves to drive it.
While doing your research remember that you could take a trolley from Manhattan & go to Brooklyn, the Bronx & Queens too ... for just 5 cents.
Mr rt__:^)
The museum at Branford, CT has a beautifly restored car from 1892 that was first cable, then elect. via conduit &
finaly trolley pole when it went to the Bronx.
As one of Branford's esteemed members (and recent SubTalker) would
say "not to bust ya balls or nothin, but..." car 220, of which you
speak, never went to the Bronx and never had a pole. It was retired
from passenger service, as far as we can tell, around 1920 and
spent the next 27 years as slot scraper car #33 before coming to
the museum.
While doing your research remember that you could take a trolley from Manhattan & go to Brooklyn, the Bronx &
Queens too ... for just 5 cents.
Yes, and many of the bridges had dual mode. Both the QB and WB
had underground loop terminals at the Manhattan end for trolley
cars coming from Queens and Brooklyn, along with conduit track
for Manhattan cars to come across the bridge and turn around on
the borough side. I believe the MB also had both modes. Your
5 cent fare got you from somewhere in Manhattan to the foot of the
bridge on the other side of the river, or vice versa, but then you
had to pay another fare to continue your trip. There were also
3 cent shuttle lines that operated on the QB and MB.
I'm aware that, historically, Manhattan streetcars used the conduit system as their power source. (Sections of the old system are about to be unearthed as the WTC area is reconfigured.) But-- regarding the proposed light rail line for 42nd St, those infamous "architects' drawings" have always shown the cars drawing power from an overhead wire.
Interestingly, I noticed on another board that Washington D.C., another city that had conduit-fed trolleys, is also considering 2 possible light rail lines, also with overhead wires. So, maybe both cities are overcoming their historic resistance to overheads. (Of course, both cities are still very much at the "talk" stage-- and unofficial talk at that.) But the cost effectiveness of a really good, limited access light rail line over the obscene cost of subway construction (to say nothing of the time factor and chaotic disruption of city life that continues for decades during construction), may make the minor problem of an overhead wire not as horrible as once thought.
The issue of overhead wires in Manhattan is an interesting one
for which I've never found a complete historical reckoning.
Here's what I do know.
The permission to erect poles and run wires along city streets
is a franchise granted by the municipal government. The
City of New York (Manhattan) certainly granted many such franchises,
first for telegraph, then telephone and electricity (which was
the Edison 3-wire system of +/- 120 volts DC). By the early 1880s,
the skies were cluttered with a maze of individual wires. Some
poles had a dozen cross-arms on them. The unsightliness caused
disfavorable public sentiment, but a turning event was in 1884
when, according to the NY times, a man working on the overhead
wires became entangled in them an was electrocuted. It is said
that he hung up there for a long time, with blue sparks shooting
out of his mouth, before they were able to cut off the power and
remove his body.
Thereafter, the legislature (not clear city or state) enacted a
bill requiring all new wires to be placed underground, and required
existing lines to be gradually converted. The private companies
which held the franchises paid little attention to this, until
the blizzard of 1888, which took down many of their wires and
caused many public hazards. It is said (source unknown) that the
mayor of NYC started walking up Broadway with an axe chopping down
utility poles until the companies agreed to comply.
The Empire City Subway company (or its corporate ancestor) was
formed during this time to construct underground ducts for the
relocation of wires. Having to go underground forced the development
of better insulation and cable technology (previously all wires
were individual).
Trolley systems were not yet practical items in 1885 when the
first cable car line opened across 125 St. in Manhattan. However,
by 1888 the trolley system was in vogue. The overhead wire law
would not allow a franchise for such an operation. So, while
the city of Brooklyn was building trolley lines in 1892, New York
continued to build cable lines through the 1890s. The decision
to use the underground electric conduit system was a difficult one,
and engineers from Metropolitan Street Railways visited Budapest
to learn from their experiences. In 1896, the first conduit line
opened. It was a brand-new line, not a cable conversion, on Lenox
Ave. Construction of new electric lines and conversions of existing
cable lines continued throughout the 1890s. I believe the last
major cut-over was the Broadway line in 1901.
Now, there were exceptions to the overhead wire rule. The Bronx
was not subject to the rule, even though it had been annexed by
NYC (or parts of it) by the time the law was passed. All of the
Bronx lines that crossed in to Manhattan had a block or two of
overhead wire for turn back. One of the lines (escapes me) ran
all the way across Washington Heights under wire. There was also
wire at the Manhattan end of the QB, WB, MB and BB. Some areas
of Manhattan today have overhead telephone or power cables.
So, it isn't clear to me what the law said, how long it lasted,
or how much flexibility the city commissioners had. It is possible
that they simply didn't want to grant franchises for overhead
wire in Manhattan, so companies went underground to avoid the fight.
Today, if NYC really wanted to build the 42 St trolley, it would
simply override any laws to the contrary concerning overhead wire.
The conduit in DC was required by Congress so as not to affect the "historic vistas" of Washington. Even today, overhead traffic lights and signs are still forbidden and all DC lights are on the street corners.
The overhead probition applied only to the "Old City", that was U Street/Florida Avenue on the North, the Potomac River on the South, Roughly Georgetown on the West and the Anacostia River on the East.
Strangely, overhead traffic signals are nowhere to be found anywhere in the District.
If the DC Light Rail does take off (do NOT hold your breath) the conduit/overhead question in the 21st Century is yet to be determined/solved.
Thanks, Jeff, for the great recap of the history of overhead wires, trolley and otherwise, in Manhattan. No doubt, they can be unsightly as well as dangerous (that poor guy with the shooting sparks!). One need only take a quick look at the recently posted photos on this board of the new tram lines in Lyon, France to see how unobstrusive-- almost invisible-- overhead trolley wire can be. (Try to ignore the goofy looking appearance of the new tram cars. They look more like an amusement park ride than rapid transit vehicles.)
Although I'm a huge fan of NYC subways (that's why I'm a member here), I'm becoming more and more impressed with the practicality and cost effectiveness of multi-car light rail for moving large numbers of people at a tiny fraction of the cost of subway construction. In these trying times, this consideration cannot be ignored or discounted. A new subway for 2nd Av may be a sort-of, semi done deal at this point but I've often wondered why a slick, modern light rail in a median strip of 1st or 2nd Av was never proposed or considered as an alternative for relieving some of the Lex overcrowding.
Great idea, but I don't think there is room on either Avenue.
[but..." car 220, of which you speak, never went to the Bronx and never had a pole. It was retired from passenger service, as far as we can tell, around 1920 and spent the next 27 years as slot scraper car #33 before coming to the museum.]
One of the things I TRY not to do when doing tours at the museum is make stuff up. Here we have an example of other operators leading me to believe something that isn't true. TARS was a monster of a company and many of it's cars saw service all over NYC. This operator must have ASSUMED and made it part of his story ... I overheard it and ASSUMED it was true ... seemed to be reasonable, i.e. why would a museum put a trolley pole on a car that never had one ... but then all the subway cars have one.
Well, you learn something every day. Meanwhile it seems that the Training Director has another item added to his already full plate.
[There were also 3 cent shuttle lines that operated on the QB and MB.]
The line accross the MB was called .... the Manhattan Bridge 3 Cent Line, gee wonder why they called it that ;-)
Mr rt
The Destination Freedom Newsletter this week is especially good. You can find the newsletter at www.nationalcorridors.org
The current newsletter has a lot about the current Amtrak situation and what I thought was an exceptinally well written "Guest Opinion". The URL for that is here http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df02112002.shtml#Amtrakyes I know that it is rather long, but it is worth it.
Oh poop, the correct url is http://www.nationalcorridors.org
Oh poop...
Please don't, at least not on the subway... the skells do it enough as it is :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Any update on the T/O that ran from his Franklin Ave Shuttle train when they had those rowdy teens at Prospect Park.
I heard from an unreliable source that he was suspended and TA is looking to give him walking papers.
This reminds me of that (think) C/R that came to the aide of a customer on his lunch break and the TA won't pay the medical bills because he wasn't under supervision.
Who's the 'unreliable source'? The great-grandson of Lucky Luciano?? ;-D
Friend of a Friend of a T/O.
Don't know what his last name is... >G<.
Thats how rumors get started.
This reminds me of that (think) C/R that came to the aide of a customer on his lunch break and the TA won't pay the medical bills because he wasn't under supervision.
I think this was a Manhattan bus operator,and eventually, the TA did come around and pay the medical expenses. After lots of bad publicity.
--Mark
>>>I think this was a Manhattan bus operator,and eventually, the TA did come around and pay the medical expenses. After lots of bad publicity.<<<
I believe you are right about that, Mark. But, still and all, if the TA tries to fire the Franklin Shuttle T/O, they truly suck.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have some questions.
1. Didn't the T/O's radio work?
2. Why didn't the token booth operator call for help when his station was occupied by what was earlier described as "hundreds" of rowdy teens?
3. If the T/O felt in danger, wasn't he more at risk in leaving his cab than in staying locked in it?
In other words, were there alternatives to abandoning the train (and the law-abiding passnegers in it)?
Very good points -- since the T/O can certainly be charged with 'Dereliction of Duty' (if such a thing exists in the NYCT rulebook) or something akin to that.
BMTman
If TA can't find it in their book, they'll put it in their book.
When did this happen?
- Lyle Goldman
According to the Newsday article, shortly after thanksgiving 2001.
Peace,
ANDEE
I rarely ride the 8th Avenue line, but this weekend, riding a northboud C train, there were signs with "WD xx" where xx was a number (i presume denoting MPH), and these signs were accompanied by clear white signals (either flashing, solid lit, or off).
What do these signals mean, and how do they work?
Thanks for the explanation.
Rich G
These signals are wheel detectors, and what they do is take the place of grade timers in keeping the train at a certain speed through the "series" of DubyaDee (WD) signals.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Why is the signal sometimes lit solid, and other times flashing (or in one case, it was not lit) ?
flashing indicates TOO FAST, and SOLID indicates that the WD signal's speed is the same or below (meaning that you've "cleared it") yours. And as to why it wasn't lit...well, I don't know that one....
Stuart, RLine86Man
Thanks a lot for the answers!
You're very welcome.
Stuart, RLine86Man
If it's NOT lit, I believe, it means that it is not active. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's exactly what I was thinking Andee...I just didn't wanna give the guy a wrong answer.
Stuart, RLine86Man
[ Off ] = I'm asleep. You don't bother me, and I won't bother you.
[ ON ] = I'm watching you... (Your speed is ok for now)
[ Flash ] = I see you and you are speeding, and I'm going to get your ass!
Elias
In a nutshell, yeah *lol*
That's if the signal could talk, of course. Moo (@Kevin)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Not on means not active, it isn't working or the light is burnt out :-)
Here's an interesting RTO rules issue. WD signals violate
typical signal practice in several ways. One of the most
significant "golden rules" being broken is that the failure
of a lamp to light should always cause a more restrictive aspect
to be displayed. This rule has been observed universally for
all sorts of railway signaling systems over the years.
With WD signals, the dark aspect is more permissive than the solid
or flashing aspect. The TA rulebook has traditionally had a rule
along the lines of "a signal which is dark or improperly displayed
shall be regarded as giving the most restrictive indication that
signal is capable of" or words to that effect. Is there a clause
for WD signals which overrides this?
WD is not a signal, and has no indication regarding track alignments or occupied blocks. It is a timing device that may or may not be in use at the moment. Sometimes they are present but not in use.
Or such is my understanding.
When the 1 line is restored to South Ferry, it will once again be the only line to have all three exceptions to the 'dark signal' rule:
1 - the 'Open Bridge' signal, illuminated only when the bridge is moved for shipping traffic (or testing).
2 - the WD signals south of Times Sq, illuminated only when a train is being switched from 1 Track to 2 Track.
3 - the GF signal, illuminated only when the gap fillers are out.
Isn't that OPEN BRIDGE light associated with a homeball
that goes to R/R when the bridge is open?
I'm not sure - the homeball works as any other one normally. Since I've never been nearby when the bridge opened, I'm not sure what the signals do.
The bridge is also protected by holdout homes (GYR G_R) and associated approaches. You can't swing the "lever" to open it unless approach locking is clear or timed out.
EXCELLENT point! Maybe a green head to go with it. Single lamp when WD is off because there's no diverge, thus no need ...
There are no clauses, yet that is, to imply that a wheel detector signal, which is not capable of conveying conditions of a block ahead, which is dark must be treated as a dark automatic signal, even though the rule book does note dark signals as simply signals.
Rule 40 (E) A train must STOP at a missing, unlit or wrongly lit signal. This must be reported immediately via radio to the Command Center Desk Superintendant and the Train operator must await instructions from the Command Center Desk Superintendant.
Here is the distinction between a fixed miscellaneous signal, and an automatic block signal. The following is the second paragraph of rule 40 (E):
In instances where a flagger's green flag or green light is missing or unlit, the Train Operator will proceed WITH RESTRICTED SPEED AND EXTREME CAUTION to the next station (express or local), notify the Command Center Desk Superintendant via radio and then proceed at normal speed for the area.
Rule 40 (e) prohibits unauthorized movement passed dark, unlit and missing signals. It also defines the scope of the signals as it relates to this rule, as one of a fixed nature (the flagger's) and the unlit ( could be an automatic or even a fixed miscellaneous signal). If I were a T/O, and came upon a dark WD signal, I would call it in if I KNEW it were supposed to be lit. For example, at Canal on A4, on the A, I called in such a problem a few weeks back. The 971 WD was lit, therefore requiring the rest to light up in sequence, unless the route clears for the Bottom Green. The North End 974 WD was unlit, and the Home Signal's WD was lit. Is it a dark signal I should have stopped at? I may have in fact took a chance there. My two arguments is that a dark WD signal is one that may have been dark on the flashing white. Therefore, the most I could have done is to treat it as a miscellaneous sign, and not stop at it while dark, but slow the train further to colmply with a flashing white. If I stop at the dark miscellaneous signal, I have a good chance of a conductor looking at a foreign board, a chance I will not take. I could also lie about the future signals and say the darkened signal appears to have been either bypassed or simply cleared for the route. A nice case for arbitration. At least the TA will have saved one minute of headaches because my safety vest will already be on.
Thanks Harry. I knew I could count on you for rulebook interpretation
You say the WD doesn't convey block occupancy. That's true, but
there are other signals that don't but which clearly should be
regarded as stop on dark, e.g. train order signals. It is true
that a flashing aspect is dark half the time, but a "reasonable
person" would presumably distinguish between that momentary darkness,
which lasts less than 1 second, and constant darkness.
Is the WD a signal at all? Certainly that's implied as it
is illustrated along with the other wayside signals and called
a "Wheel Detector Signal".
The rule about missing green resume lanterns is ambiguous. You
can't know that the lantern is missing or unlit since you do not
know ahead of time where to expect it, and you can't see a dark
lantern in the tunnel. The rule says proceed to the next station,
express or local, but that doesn't clarify whether, when running
on the express track, your resume point is the next local station
that you'd pass through, or the next express station. The
conservative interpretation is the latter. Can you imagine the
ruckus if there were a missing green lantern leaving an express
station and you ran at restricted speed all the way to the next
express station?
Hey, track workers in the tunnel don't have to assist customers,
so maybe they can take their vests off now?
My point in referring to the flagger's signals is that it is credited in 40 (e), which refers to "signals". If a motor instructor is holding a dead flashlight in his hand and flicking it from side to side, instead of waving his arm back and forth across his body while facing the train, am I passing a dark "signal"? I would assume that passing a dark WD signal is the same as passing a dark signal. My fear has always been stopping a train in the middle of a station and having an unobservant coworker open the side doors by accident. BTW, on the subject of missing resumes, the rule is if there are no green lamps or flags, the train operator will resume normal speed when reaching the next station, express or local, whichever comes first. You should know when to expect future flags/lamps, such as on curves where auxilary flagging may be used, and on express tracks where speeds exceed 35 MPH. The resume flag/lamp will be placed one maximum train length for division after passing the end of the work zone.
If a motor instructor is holding a dead flashlight in his
hand and flicking it from side to side, instead of waving his arm back and forth across his body while facing the train, am I passing a dark "signal"?
No, you are not, because those signals do not depend upon a light, but rather upon the motion.
The train operator will resume normal speed when
reaching the next station, express or local, whichever comes first. You should know when to expect future
flags/lamps, such as on curves where auxilary flagging may be used, and on express tracks where speeds exceed
35 MPH. The resume flag/lamp will be placed one maximum train length for division after passing the end of the
work zone.
Right, but what does "whichever comes first" mean? Let's say
you've just left Roosevelt Ave s/b on D3 and there is track work
south of the station. There is no green lantern. Do you resume
normal speed when you pass through 65 St or Queens Plaza?
Logic would dictate the former. What about slow-speed track
conditions protected by 3 or 5 yellow lamps?
logic wrong. You resume after your next station stop if there is no green lantern/flag, and then call it in.
Logic wrong there too. You resume after your next station, express OR local, whichever occurs first, when proceeding without green resume flags. I'm not sure about the 5 yellow lights, unless there is another outdated bulletin.
Uh oh, I smell an efficiency test coming!
T/W's use the vests BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO! IT'S A OSHA REQUIREMENT!
Stuart, RLine86Man
If the vests are for safety, then shouldn't _all customers_ of the TA be wearing vests while riding the system, to be extra safe? Customers could wear a green one, to differentiate, and foamers could wear a football helmet with a spittle shield. sorry, I rant.
*lmfao* Now THERE'S a good idea!!! (Especially the foama helmet!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hahahahahaha ... good one. Spittle shield mandatory of course, geese are welcome to wear feathers without fear of ketchup stains. :)
Hmm: Kevlar ankle-length overcoats and helmets as the acme of NYC subway commuter fashion. It'd sure spazzout the cops, conflict Curtis Sliwa, gross out the TV correspondants while giving the tourism bureaucrats something very difficult to spin.
The WEP's are issued green vests.
What's a WEP ?
The folks who are now working for their welfare money.
WEPS....we got em at 239th. They wanted to protest 'w o r k i n g.'
Stupid fools...got a 'good gig' that they could eventually bankroll into becoming CTAs. CTA day shifters all love their jobs...where else could you make the money on such easy work but TA and love it so much that you'll complete the days assignments. CI Peter
WEP stands for Work Expereince Program. I have seen many WEPs in stations and some are dedicated workers that sometimes even make TA workers look bad but many are also lazy and refuse to work.
Another group of cleaners in stations are community service workers whcih wear orange vests but street clothes rather than a CTA unfirom. The community service workers are serving a sentence for a misdeamnor offense sucha s fare beating, smoking, etc. Often times I have seen them mopping a concrete platform. Both community Service and WEPs are supervised by CTAs and supervision.
If a community service worker does not show, then their judge will be notified and their sentenced made harsher.(Yes- attendance is taken and sent to the judges.)
Maybe you misunderstand my intent: TA work is EXCELLENT work and if a door was opened to you as a welfare recipient, only a damned lazy fool would close the door. We had the WEPS in green vests...I thought they were CTA trainees. If I wasn't a qualified Car Inspector and I sought simple easy money, I'd go CTA. CI Peter
See: Subway Signals, a Complete Guide
http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/signals/
Yes, would you believe, there's more to nycsubway.org than just SubTalk!
-Dave
I've read this section in the past - and glossed over it quickly before making the post - I just must have missed it. Sorry to ask for information that's on the site already!
Very interesting stuff there. One question though, what is a Fouling point?
If a train is hanging past the Fouling Point sign, another train being put onto the adjacent track will hit it.
There's nothing there about Wheel Detectors.
- Lyle Goldman
Here ya go ... it's down near the bottom of the page at the JoeKorner ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/signals.htm
While i was working at Dekalb Av N/B Platform this morning & i saw Lead Car 3859/58-3920/21-3565/64-3948/49-3940/40 Last Car on Q line. This is my first time seeing R32 ran on Q line & when the last time R32 ran on Brighton Line?
David "Coolist" Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operations/Operations Planning
After 9-11 they ran them all the time because most of the slants 40's went to the M line for expanded sevice.
Robert
How many R-32s are still running on the "Q"?
#3 West End Jeff
Supposedly none. Usually Coney Island R32s run on N line. If the number of cars available on the Q line are under the requirement, you may see one or two R32 trains supplementing the Q line.
Chaohwa
I think those were Jamaicas R32s since the R was suspended. And during E to Canal times, it was 95% R46 on the E trains. All the R32s were on that Q and some R68s! some Motormen from the R hated that
The R32s on the Circle "Q" during the 9-11 diversions were both Jamaica-Yard mixed Phase I and Phase II -AND- Coney Island Phase II.
One or two trainsets of Pitkin stuff even showed up!
wayne
Hey Wayne, I got one set of photos back from our railfanning excursion last October. It's the second roll, beginning at Canal St. on the Nassau line and includes Redbirds on the 7 at 74th St. That R-32 sign box pic on the circle Q turned out nice. It compliments the photo I took the year before of that R-32 signed up as an N.
So...stop teasing us and...POST THEM ALREADY...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Why didn't they use any R32s on the M when it replaced the N?
I saw a set of R32's on the M in October.
My guess as to why the M was supplemented with R40 slants is because these cars can be maintained at either the CI or ENY shops, whereas any R32's would need to be shopped at CI only.
I guess that today was one of those days where you saw the R-32s running on the "Q".
#3 West End Jeff
Well, actually I saw some R32(R) stop in Union turnpike Express track on Sunday evening, is it unusual?
It's not unusual to see R-32s taking a weekend nap on the Queens express tracks beyond Continental Ave.
In the early AM, cars are stored literally end-to-end from 75th Ave to 169th St.
That is unusual. Not only is it unusual to see a train of R-32s on the "R" if you are correct, it is unusual to see the "R" train on the express tracks.
#3 West End Jeff
After 8PM and on weekends R R46s are left on the express tracks between 36st and 59th on 4th Ave.
I guess what you're telling me is that the express tracks are used for storage sometimes.
#3 West End Jeff
The last time R32s on the Q was before N and R resumed their services at the end of last October after 911 attacks. All Jamaica and Coney Island R32s were put on Q. It will be rare to see this happen again.
Chaohwa
At lunch time today, I also saw a consist of R-32's on the Q at 57 &
B'way. It appeared they were operating as Dimond Q , but I don't think the roll sign has a on it. It was signed up for Brighton Beach but it was showing a (Q) circle Q on the side signs.
's don't have the diamond Q on the R-32 roll signs. I'm sure that in time, you will see the roll signs modified like the other units assigned to Coney Island. Who knows, the R-32's could even be a regular on the putting the rest of the slants on the N.
I could live with R-32s on the diamond Q. For some reason, I just don't ride on them very often anymore. The slants still rule that line.
We will just need to get roll signs with the Diamond Q.
FWIW I saw an ABBA-AAAA set on the F train today @ 1215 or so.
Peace,
ANDEE
There was a AAAA set on the G on Saturday. I layed it up in Jamcia Yard. The T/O's were all repording long brakes, so it was shoped after sevice.
Robert
Were you talking R-46's?
Yes.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow! I was up and down the line on the N today, and was looking to see how many 32's were left on that line (in the pick, they just gave half of what they had to Queens, leaving only 60, or 6 trains.) I did see a couple, but the N is mostly slants now. It may become all 40's (slants and modified) when the eastern div. 40's are displaced by 143's, then those last 60 32's will go.
What I did see of interest on the Q was illuminated end signs on the diamonds on the slants. The Q diamonds are usually darkened because it is a paste on over the yellow D. I guess it's replacement signs that have the new route. The cars I saw this on were 4195 and 4275.
I'll agree with your observations, Eric -- I rode the N close to 10 times over the weekend -- even post-midnight*, and every ride was on a Slant 40. With the GO affecting the (7), those puppies were crowded between Times Square and Queensboro Plaza. [I took my WCBS colleague and railfan Wayne Cabot and his son on their first Slant 40 and Redbird (7) rides -- they're hooked!]
*I stayed at the Marriott World Financial Center Saturday night, and the N/R stop at Rector is the closest station. Passenger traffic was high in and out of this station at all hours. Even post-midnight, foot traffic in the area was high, and the McDonald's on Broadway near Fulton was open 24 hours to serve the crews working nearby.
Saturday we saw Slants along with one R32 and one R68A (not a regular 68) on the "N" - one bunch was 5182-81-83-84.
wayne
I rode one R68A set on the N over the Holidays. It is not a rarety that one or 2 sets might be there.
That stands to reason - AND we even saw one of the R68A on the Circle "Q" - #5126-25-27-28. Didn't spot the other half.
wayne
Wayne, there were about 4 sets of the R68A's in August on the Circle Q, but no sets in December. Guess the R68A's are coming back there, Huh?
They've started putting in the illuminated Q Diamond signs about two months ago. If anything else, riders can now tell from further away if a Q Diamond coming through.
Last Christmas, or before that, a few slants were sporting the new signs.
Are they new signs?
I believe so, because the old signs were dull, but the new signs have a very bright letter, and they definitely don't look illuminated to me. Look on the side roll signs as well.
Each and every one of those ten is a wayward N train, a Coney Island Phase II R32, all were N except 3940-41 according to my R32 Census, that was Circle Q November 14, 2001; also I have marked the remaining as Q. Was it a Circle Qor a Slant Q?
Circle Q. That why i was doing Performance Indicator Program at Dekalb Av Northbound Platform this morning.
David "Coolist" Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operations/Operations Planning
>>>...i was doing Performance Indicator Program...<<<
What is that?
Peace,
ANDEE
For what it's worth, the Brighton bound R-32 consist I saw on Monday at Atlantic Ave. had circles to Brighton Beach signed. The PA anounced that it was running express. Deduction: no one stuck diamond stickers on the R-32 side signs.
I was amazed that it was acutally started. I also know that rochester NY had one for a while, but is since gone. Does anyone know of other american Cities that had such enterprises and lost them??
mike
The first subway in Los Angeles was constructed by the Pacific Electric Railway from its terminal at 4th and Hill Streets in downtown Los Angeles over one mile to 2nd and Glendale Blvd. It opened in the mid-twenties and lasted until the mid-fifties. The Subway Terminal Building with the station in its basement, still stands, though it's currently not occupied. It is just steps from the Pershing Square station of today's Red Line. The subway was last used by PCC cars on the Glendale Burbank route.
Could this tunnel be of any use in a modern transit, if were in a fantasy world where engineering were the only concern?
Mark
As much as I love electric rail transit and hate to see any facility wasted, I'm afraid this tunnel doesn't fit into any reasonable transit scheme for Los Angeles. One problem: part of it was filled in when nearby Bunker Hill was developed with office towers in the sixties.
Last night 2/10/02 I was walking thought the main shop @ CIY and saw one set of each class. Car # are R142's 6841-6845 & R142a's 7586-7590. Dose anyone know why they are there for. My guess is that CIY might be tring some thing out with the battrey boxes, but this only a guess.
Robert
There is (was) supposed to be some kind of transit conference today which was to include a tour of CIY. It is possible that they were there for display purposes. This trip had two GOs issued for it - the first putting the D-types at Columbus Circle for a ride to the Yard, return via R143 to Rock Center. The second cancelled the first and rewrote it so the R143 would do both legs of the trip - glad I saw it, since I had been planning to go take shots of the D-types at Columbus Circle.
6841 was involved in a 12-9 while testing last week,happened at Newkirk ave.
So that was the red mark under the car. I also though I saw a body pat under the car. HAHA.
Robert
If you are a SubTalker, I passed you on the X-County Pkwy. heading back to the UES on Sunday afternoon.
MATT-2AV
No, that's not me. You couldn't pay me to own a car in NYC.
If they're New York plates, I've seen them before at N scale meets... my guess is the owner is into Z scale (which is so small, both in size and popularity, that it doesn't have meets of its own... but a few N scale dealers carry Z as well).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did the car skip a stop at every other block?
HeHe. It would need to be followed by a "J Train"
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
The best one I've heard in a while ;)
Nope, they were Jersey plates.
Haven't seen that one... I'll keep an eye peeled though...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As I went to store to pick up yodels...the front page of the Advance had story about Reviving the North Shore Railway.
Here is the Link for you people
This is the third or fourth story in as many months...Paturkey is supporting it now, mainly because he wants V-O-T-E-S from Staten Island come November, but if (and when) he's replaced (whether this year or 4 years from now), the next governor most probably WON'T support this project anymore, and once more it goes on the BAACK of the shelf, just like the 2nd Av. Subway!
Stuart, RLine86Man
>> Paturkey is supporting it now, <<
Hey, it could be worse...Mario Cuomo could still be governor. Horrors.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Samuel Insull would be rolling in his grave. The North Shore Railway
ran from Chicago to Milwaukee, not from one end of Staten Island to
the other...
North Shore Railway = 2nd Ave Subway IMHO, I'll believe it when I see it (ride it)!!
Same here......
Stuart, RLine86Man
It quite a nice article with a lot of detail in it in any case.
With some politians pushing it, including Pataki's support, AND the fact that it's not a BILLION dollar project, AND it can be done in a short time (within the term of a politian), it might come to pass.
If it gets going I'll bet you see HBLR come across from Bayonne.
So what do we support: HBLR, i.e. LRV or subway with high platforms ?
Would it make since for the current line to be extended, or should it be a new/separate line ?
Mr rt__:^)
if it's going to be an "extension" of the original NSL, then it'd have to be (the original section) modified in order for it to meet with HBLR.
Stuart, RLine86Man
>>>So what do we support: HBLR, i.e. LRV or subway with high platforms ? <<<
I'll support anything new as long as it has rails underneath it!
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Come with me to Grasmere Station of the SIR, Thruston and we will go to the Staten Island Advance, and I will show you well written upon well written articles about the North Shore Railway and how they are going to rebuild it.
Articles from LRV to Frieght to Commuter to Guided Busways.
>>>...to Guided Busways. <<<
Ugh, Gag...cough...eych. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds like a invitation for a Field Trip. Let's get off early, do the Advance, then take in a ball game :-)
Mr rt
I've thought a lot about how subway service should run after the construction work on the Manhattan Bridge and at Coney Island are done and here's how i think it should be.
B/D trains:Run from the Bronx to Coney Island all times with the B as a shuttle from CI to 36th St late nights and the D as Brighton Local.Both via 6th Ave
N:Ditmars Blvd to CI via Broadway Exp/Bridge,4th Ave Exp/Sea Beach except late nights when it will run entirely local via Tunnel.
Q:179th St-Brighton Beach via Queens Blvd Exp/63st Tunnel/Broadway Exp/Bridge/Brighton Exp. 6AM-12MID 7 days a week.
W:Ditmars Blvd-Whitehall St via Broadway Lcl.Rush Hours only.
V:Continental Av-Kings Highway via Queens Blvd Lcl/53st/6th Ave Lcl/Culver Exp. M-F 6-11 PM.
Let me know what you think of this idea or if you have one that is different,let me know.
The B, D, and N parts make very good sense. The rest brings up items discussed at length in recent months.
- Q to Queens means fewer E and F trains. Less E 53rd St service, further splintering of the QB express, less reverse service from Penn to E 53rd in the AM rush.
- The Broadway local deserves 2 services during mid-day, evenings, and weekends. 8 Ave has E and C, 7th Ave normally has a 1/9 that is more frequent than the R, 6th Ave has F and V, Lex has a very frequent 6. Certainly there is more traffic on Bway local tracks than on CPW (which has B and C in your proposal) in the off hours. Prince St, 8th, and 23rd are pretty busy even in the off hours. So the W should be 18 hours, 7 days per week. Maybe turn it around at 57th late evenings and weekends.
- V to Culver line is a totally different discussion and can happen independently of the Manhattan Bridge. Why bring it into this thread and confuse everybody?
I dunno i guess I just think its the best idea ever and the people at the MTA are to lazy to even try it out and see if it actually work
Were Queens Blvd. train capacity not an issue, your plan would be great. But it is, and so by necessity it would have to delicately juggle express services.
The "V" train is not an issue here, and is a separate item entirely.
Now, if one were to study Queens Blvd. demand, perhaps one could discern specific patterns of Broadway and 6th Av demands, such that 63rd St service could shift between 6th Av and Broadway trains (eg F and Q would share the 63rd St Connector)depending on when demand peaked for each. I fear that it is likely that demand peaks for both at the same time, though - resulting in a dilemma.
We need an additional subway tunnel through Queens. There is enough under-river capacity, but we could use more intra-borough capacity.
B: Rush/Midday/Weekend---168th Street---CN via Bridge
Nights---36th Street---CN
D: Rush/Midday---207th Street---CN via bridge EXPRESS in Brooklyn
Weekend/Nights---207th Street---CN via bridge
Q: Rush/Midday---57th Street---CN via Bridge EXPRESS in Manhattan LOCAL on the Brighton line.
Weekend/Night---No Service.
R: All times---Astoria---95th Street via Tunnel
N: Rush/Midday/Weekend---71st Continental---CN via Bridge Express in Manhattan
Night---All Stops 71st Continental---CN via Bridge
W: Rush/Midday---Astoria---95th Street via Tunnel local in Manhattan
Express in Queens, peak direction.
Night/Weekend---No Service
C would go back to Grand Concourse.
R: All times---Astoria---95th Street via Tunnel
They did the N/R terminal swap in the late '80s because this was precisely the service pattern and it left the R without yard access at either end of its route. Contrariwise, the N has a yard at either end--for lines that can easily swap terminals, it doesn't make any sense for the R to be forced to do a long deadhead to get to a yard.
Dan
ok now I just think thats a dumb idea,dont mean to blunt or say your dumb,i just dont think that'll work out to well
The history of the B along CPW and north is quite mixed. It was once a rush hour thing only, to 168th St. As I recall, the most efficient was to have the A run local south to Columbus Circle off hours: the choice is infrequent poorly coordinated locals and expresses vs. a frequent local.
Late nights, I'd shut down the BMT B'way south of Canal and increase service across the bridge. I've also thought that shutting down the 6th Ave late nights and concentrating service on B'way also makes sense (D to W4th from Bronx via 8th, F from W4th to B'lyn). Essentially, the N and Q expresses and R local would operate 24 hours, Q becoming Brighton local. The rehabbed Atlantic/Pacific station becomes a nightrider's paradise.
But then, they'd reduce this to 20 minute headways with shuttles going only as far as Atlantic or Pacific/36th as soon as everyone got used to the late night changes, so it's probably a bad idea for this reason alone.
I thought the W was going to be retired after the bridge restoration
project was finished.
That remains to be seen. We'll find out sure enough in 2004.
Late nights, I'd shut down the BMT B'way south of Canal and increase service across the bridge
I don't think shutting the Broadway line down, south of Canal, at night would be a good idea. On an unrelated post someone had mentioned the N was very busy after midnight, even around Rector.
I think you have a pretty good plan. It shares similarities with my own.
I've thought a lot about how subway service should run after the construction work on the Manhattan Bridge and at Coney Island are done and here's how i think it should be.
Let's not count our chickens until they're hatched. Work on the Manhattan Bridge is supposed to be finished by 2004. I'll believe it when I see it.
Subway Plans for 2004
B Train: Same as always before 7/22/01
D Train: Same as always before 7/22/01
N Train:
[Midday/Rush Hours]- B Train: [All time except night]- All stop from Bedford Blvd, Bronx - CI, Brooklyn. Night: Shuttle between 36th Street and CI, Brooklyn
D Train: Same as always Before 7/22/01
N Train:
[Midday/Rush Hours]- All Stops in Queens and Manhattan, Express Stops in Brooklyn from Astoria, Queens to CI, Brooklyn (via Bridge)
[Evening/Nights/Weekends]-All Stops Astoria, Queens through Manhattan, to CI, Brooklyn (via Bridge).
R Train:
[All time except Night]- All Stops from 71 Ave Forest Hill, Queens; through Manahattan to 95 Street Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
[Nights]- All Stops from 57th Street/7th Ave Manhattan to 95 Street Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
W Train:
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings]-All stops from Astoria, Queens to 34th Street, Manahattan; Express stops from 34th Street, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via Bridge); Express Stops from 36th Street to Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via N).
[Nights/Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
C Train:
[All Time Except Nights]- All stops from 168 St Washington Height, Manhattan to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
[Night]- Shuttle Service between Euclid Ave, Brooklyn to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
A Train:
[All Time Except Nights]- Express Stops, Inwood/207 St, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Far Rockaway, Queens; Also serves Rockaway Park, Queens, during rush hours; other times transfer to H (Rockaway Park Shuttle) at Broad Channel, Queens.
[Nights]- All Stops in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens from 207 St Inwood, Manhattan to Far Rockaway, Queens; Transfer to C at Euclid Ave for Service to Lefferts Blvd.
through Manhattan, to CI, Brooklyn (via Bridge).
W Train:
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings]-All stops from Astoria, Queens to 34th Street, Manahattan; Express stops from 34th Street, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via Bridge); Express Stops from 36th Street to Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via N).
[Nights/Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
C Train:
[All Time Except Nights]- All stops from 168 St Washington Height, Manhattan to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
[Night]- Shuttle Service between Euclid Ave, Brooklyn to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
A Train:
[All Time Except Nights]- Express Stops, Inwood/207 St, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Far Rockaway, Queens; Also serves Rockaway Park, Queens, during rush hours; other times transfer to H (Rockaway Park Shuttle) at Broad Channel, Queens.
[Nights]- All Stops in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens from 207 St Inwood, Manhattan to Far Rockaway, Queens; Transfer to C at Euclid Ave for Service to Lefferts Blvd.
Q Train:
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening until 9:30 PM] Express Stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn.
Extend V to Kings Hwy, Brooklyn
Extend Z Service to Middays hours
Unchange Services:
E, F, G Train: SAME AS CURRENT SERVICES AS OF 12/16/01.
M Train: Remained the same as always.
Adding New Service:
Replace #7 with #11 as Flushing Express.
Ignore this error
>>>>N Train: [Midday/Rush Hours]- B Train: [All time except night]- All stop from Bedford Blvd, Bronx - CI, Brooklyn. Night: Shuttle between 36th Street and CI, Brooklyn <<<<<
Just remember, folks:
NYCT's Subway Service Plans for 2004-05:
THERE AREN'T ANY YET!
All plans presented here are those of the presenters. Some of it will happen, some of it won't. Which is which is unknown at this time.
David
I asked this a few weeks ago but the thread got off topic so here goes again: I'm going to be in NYC the first weekend in March for a weekend railfanning trip. (Staying at the Inter-Continental Barclay on 44th and Lex) Anyway, since 9/11, I have a few questions: What are the best express runs (weekday and weekend)? What line has the most new trains (I'd like to ride one of the new models)? What lines goes over what bridges? Is the V worth a ride? Is there anything else noteworthy that I should look for? Transit museum?
Thanks in advance, JR
Twansit Museum: Closed for rehab and modernization [unfortunately] 'til 2003. Fuhgedaboutit.
Moo.
Stuart, RLine86Man
The A train is one of the most interesting runs because it has a long express run in Manhattan and the ride out to Rockaway is a must for someone who's never done it. The 6 line has the new trains and there are enough of them that you won't have to wait for hours hoping a new one will come. The L line has a new one also, but there is only one and I don't even know if it is still running at this time. It was in the test phase about a month ago. It is B division version of the new trains on the 6 line.
As for bridges: The Q and W go over the Manhattan Bridge right now. One side is closed. The M,J,Z go over the Williamsburg Bridge.
The V is nothing really special if you are familiar with the Queens Blvd line. It's just a local there and local on 6th Avenue. The F is the line that was moved to the new 63rd St connection, if you want to do something you never did before, take the F.
The Transit Museum is unfortunately closed for renovation.
We now go full speed up and out of the portal near Pooks Hill Road. Now only if I get a train in manual...
Anyone know the history of the car in eBay auction #1701542331? Looks to me like a Stone & Webster turtleback, the same class of car as #186 in Dallas.
At the Baltimore Chapter NRHS meeting tonight it was announced that a "Baltimore streetcar" was on eBay. It was announced that is wasn't a real Baltimore car, but a car from somewhere else painted as a Baltimore car. It was mentioned that it had a "turtleback appearence.
It was supposidly in an Old Spaghetti Factory restaurant.
The bogus paint scheme on that car body is UERCo, which was
the local Rhode Island company, not URy&E of Baltimore.
It is a Stone&Webster car and it appears to be in an old
Spaghetti Warehouse, although the owner does not name the
restaurant.
I don't know about the history of the car, but I can confirm that it's in the former Spaghetti Warehouse, off Promenade St :). I'm almost certain it's an imposter, as UER cars of that vintage would have been built by Laconia.
So Mike, you gonna bid on it?
So Mike, you gonna bid on it?
Only if I can put a Ford 429 in it ;)
It appears to resemble a Dallas Stone & Webster car. Have any other cities adopted this turtle back design ?
Bill "Newkirk"
According to a post on another forum, cities that had this style of car include Dallas, El Paso, Fort Worth, Houston, Portland, and Savannah GA.
Right, all, I believe, were Stone & Webster properties.
>>According to a post on another forum, cities that had this style of car include Dallas, El Paso, Fort Worth, Houston, Portland, and Savannah GA.<<
Is that Portland Oregon or Maine ?
"Bill Newkirk"
Once again, the Trib has an editorial calling for Amtrak to be scrapped. As usual, the arguments are the rehashed, knee-jerk Republican party line. ("What's good for Enron is good for the country...")
Editorial: Break up Amtrak
Ironically, the same issue of the Trib has an article in which the leading gubernatorial candidates voice their views on reducing traffic congestion in the area. The answers: More expressways, reduce tolls, reduce gasoline taxes. Transit is only mentioned in passing toward the end of the article.
Article: Candidates give views on traffic
Sick, sick, sick...
-- David
Chicago, IL
How about we put all the new expressways underground, and pump all the fumes into the gubernatorial candidates offices when they get elected?
Once again, the Trib has an editorial calling for Amtrak to be scrapped. As usual, the arguments are the rehashed, knee-jerk Republican party line. ("What's good for Enron is good for the country...")
I didn't read the editorial in quite that way. It seems to me that the Tribune is anti-Amtrak but not anti-rail. Their call for greater regional control makes a lot of sense.
Within the larger context of previous Trib editorials, they typically represent conservative suburban Republican interests almost without fail, and the trend seems to be increasing. Issues like regional rail, mass transit, and smart growth barely register a blip on their radar screen.
Sure, states paying for regional rail systems sounds nice, except for the fact that most states (at least Illinois, for one) can't afford to change a street lamp without begging for funding from Washington. And if, say, Illinois decided to fund a decent regional rail system, you can be certain that the Trib editorial page would be the first to bitch about state funds being spent on such "pork-barrel" projects.
Once upon a time, the Chicago Sun-Times could be counted on to deliver a healthy opposing point of view, but the paper seems to have taken on an increasingly conservative slant as well. (Does Rupert Murdoch still own the Sun-Times?)
Increasingly, I've been getting more and more of my news from the New York Times and Washington Post... Sometimes they're like a breath of fresh air compared to the local rags.
-- David
Chicago, IL
And from the looks of it, they're going to get their wish. Looks like EVERY train that goes anywhere NEAR Chitown is already scheduled to run in the ditch. Maybe an express bus lane will solve it. :)
I took everyone's advice with my digital camera, here's what I took after work today:
Photos
What do you think?
Great shots!
I tried to get some rare shots of MARTA in the snow when my flight was grounded in the recent snowstorm, but my camera malfunctioned...
Mark
I found some excellent photo opportunities during the snow, but I didn't have a camera on me. Maybe next year.
Just as long as next year's blizzard doesn't when I'm flying through!
I appreciated the chance to ride MARTA and all, but 24 hour layovers a bit frustrating.
Mark
It seems that you are an excellent student.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
Rob,
When I get back from NYC, we must meet up and ride the marta like its never been ridin' before :)
I go to P'tree Center everyday...
Sorry about not meeting sooner but as you know work sadly must come first...
Great pics btw!
Allen
Excellent!
Keep shooting!
Chuck Greene
Not bad. Check out the "White Balance" setting on your digital
camera. Fluorescent lighting tends to impart a greenish tint.
Although the "AUTO" white balance setting usually works, sometimes
the camera needs to be reminded.
I had it in AUTO, and they do look a little dark. I'm still going to experiment and try differnt levels of white balance later on.
The auto white balance does a good job of guessing the illumination
in most well-lit scenes. Here you are in a dark area and it
may get confused. The good news about digital cameras is the
color balance is a lot easier to correct than on film cameras
where you'd need filters. The preset for fluroescent lights
should do the trick. If not, find something in the station that
you think should come out pure white and create a custom white
balance from it.
Cool photos! I've always loved the Peachtree Center station.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Peachtree Center is just about my favorite station of any subway system anywhere. The cavern carved from living rock is truly beautiful.
Mark
The picture with the reflection I orginally was trying to get a view of the rocks, but it didn't come out like that.
Nifty photographic accident!
Yeah, it's tricky photographing dark-colored gneiss in a dimly lit cavern. (At least I think its gneiss.) Most of the pictures I've tried to take at Peachtree haven't come out well due to the lighting.
Mark
can i talk with you off line on this subject ?
I already replied to your email.
For those who DON'T know, this is at the downtown local platform at 34th St-Penn Station...A SubTalker mentioned it here, and I was reminded to take a pic to show here...Mabison Square Garden...LMAO!!!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
This tiling is NOT original 1930's IND work. This was an attempt to restore the original feel of the IND's tablet's and color coding, which they got about 85% correct.
What you posted is an obvious mistake, there are some others that have been in place since the original tiling was installed, one of these errors is on the Crosstown Line, and the other is on the Queens Line.
IMO, the enameled signage that was original equipment should have never been replaced. If there was a ADA issue, additional signage could have been installed to supplement the IND's signage.
Wayne Whitehorne can go into further detail.
What were they thinking. By the way that is not circa IND (obviously because the real Penn Station was there at that time). That must have been installed when the station was rehabbed.
New sign, from the rehab era (only way it could be original is if they ripped it off the wall from the 50th-8th Ave. local station, which they didn't), and the "D" in "Madison" is rounded right on its right side, but either they were going for some sort of effect with the white tiles in the middle (something like the "Times Sqvare" sign) or they ran out of brown tiles and somebody said "just stick a couple of white ones in there."
If they were going for some effect the D in "garden" would be the same. It's definitly an error. But, looks like it can be easily fixed.
Peace,
ANDEE
only way it could be original is if they ripped it off the wall from the 50th-8th Ave. local station, which they didn't
Can this sign still be seen or has it been covered / painted over?
I never noticed it ....
--Mark
I have since found a second bad tablet-- the letter I is too short. It is near the first bad tablet.I challenge a subtalker to find this tablet asnd take a photo.
pleasae can i have a link to your webpage ?
It looks like vandalism to me.
I thought so too at first. If you will look at the tablet and feel the tiles, the problem letter is not painted but tiled.
Actually it's a decent replica of the original IND type tiled signs, even the type face is a good match unlike the currently ubiquitous Helvetica.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
GREAT!!! Though many people already know of their presence on the 7 line. Could you take pics of the R62A's there? No one has bothered for the last 3 days! :(
can i get a link to your transit page ?
i am looking for a place to upload pics from !
love that redbird shot !! like the M sticker on the subway car !
I just saw that car going though 161st Yankees Stadum on the D line at about 1:00am. I was walking from my Work Train on C2 train to 161st to used the bathroom and it passed me right behind a D train. I was lucky the I looked before I started walking to the latter to got onto the Platfore, at this time of night I though I had 20min before the next train. It and the other 9 car were going up to CC Yard. All the cars signs were set to the 7 line. So I guess that are going back to the main line or going to be scraped soon.
Robert
P.S. I was going to started a new thread, but this is were is fits in.
OK still looking for that link...
can i get a link to your transit page ?
i am looking for a place to upload pics from !
love that redbird shot !! like the M sticker on the subway car !
send the link to
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
Enjoy 'Cream of Boid' for the while. CI Peter
30 Lashes for you Peter. You forgot to apply the new MTA flags.
That car is probably back at East 180th Street now. I saw a ten-car train of ML R33's at the East this evening, all signed up for the 7, except in front.
BTW: The R62A set was the only set in the rear part of Corona Yard today. No RedBirds were in site near it-this was around 330 this afternoon. Here was the consist:
North End Consist1: 2145-2148-2150-1705-1704-1703-1702-1701-2154-2153 Then a space and then the following consist:
Consist2: 2149-2146-2147-2151-2152
As from what I saw, Consist 1 had S Shuttle and #6 signs. 2145 had a partial #6 Local sign. 1705-4-3-2-1 had S Shuttle signs. Consist 2 had #1 signs. Front sign on 2152 said Not In Service. 2151's front sign said #1. #2155 is also in Corona Barn.
In fact, I rode #9592 on the Flushing Express today and boy does this car have to go to scrap. Not only is it very slow but very bumpy. I felt like I was on a boat-it was so bad. And yet I rode #9358 last week and it flew and wasn't as bumpy. Go figure. The best cars are going to scrap and the worst are going to stay. I can't figure it out.
All I have to say is: RedBird Lovers: Get your last rides and pics now while you can. The R62A's will be here to stay and more are on the way!!!
#1705 Flushing Express
Unfortunately it's a sign of the times, and something all of us TA people/train enthusiasts knew was gonna happen. I looked forward to being able to operate Redbirds when my time came to move up to motors (train operator), but I guess that's not gonna happen, and silver is all we are gonna see. As for the TA keeping what's bad and scrapping what's good, hey do remember the geniuses in the ranks at the TA!! They know everything, especially what's right for the service!! (YEAH RIGHT!!! lol)
I have a question. On all of the R62A's, they have strip maps inside the cars which tell of the route and its stops. Will the MTA put up 7 strip maps or will they leave it alone?
They have to place the strip maps for the 7. However I do have a question about the R62A Signs: Will they get an 7 Diamond Express sign or will they use the dreaded 11 local sign for their Express Train?
#2145 Flushing 7-11 Express ;)
If this is so then the colors should be green and orange instead of purple.
>>>If this is so then the colors should be green and orange instead of purple. <<<
Why greeen and orange?
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank Heaven for 7 Eleven! Hint Hint!
#9598 Flushing Express
I'm sure passenger service won't hit till the late spring at the earliest, but I can't wait to see the R62A's hit the road on the famous Flushing Line. Too bad that the railfan window won't be there like you see on those "Old Redbirds".
What is the current color of the 11's on the trains, purple?
i was there today. they still have the livonia stickers on them. Dont get to excited. 7 crews tell me silverbird wont hit the tracks for a while
If this is going to be an actual consist, then there are two places along the train that paseengers cannot move btwn cars, but then again its the 7, its too crowded to move btwn cars anyway.
...they oughta just remove the seats and make it SRO, complete with 'pushers' (japan style) on the platform to squeeze everyone into the train.
I happy there made it to queens! :) And I happy to see the Rebirds going and I saying Hello to one of my favorite trains in the MTA,The R-62A's :)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who admires the 'middlemen' of the current IRT rolling stock between the rusty redbirds and the futuristic R-142A's.
I'd like the R62(A) cars better if they ran in mixed consists with the Redbirds. Then they'd seem like part of the family.
Interesting ... one of the few cars that didn't get the new Pacman MTA logo ...
--Mark
This posting is to notify you of a Website Development Contest sponsored by the U.S. Department of Transportation is designed for teams of High School students with an academic representative providing guidance. The contest is intended to provide a hands-on creative educational activity for the students and result in website pages with career development information that will be usable by high school guidance counselors and students throughout the nation.
Contest entry websites are to be useful to students in examining transportation career opportunities. These opportunities include a range of career paths and directions one might take (design, construction, operation, financial, legal, management, public relations, etc.) which result in materials that may inspirational and appealing for all interests. We seek your assistance in working with teachers and students to develop contest entries in their discovery and pursuit of meaningful careers.
The due date for contest entries is being extended to May 31, 2002, to provide more time for the student teams to develop entries. Details of the contest may be found at http://education.dot.gov/ or directly at http://education.dot.gov/contestl2002contest.html.
We would appreciate receiving an indication of interest from those planning to prepare entries for the contest (email can be sent to the individuals below or can be forwarded through the contest entry mechanism located on the contest website). We may be able to offer some information about some local contacts who may be willing to assist contest entry teams with ideas for gathering and developing materials for the contest entry. Local and national transportation companies, for instance, may be an excellent source for photographs and descriptions of career paths and future job options. If you have any questions or thoughts regarding the contest, please contact Alex Landsburg at 202-366-1923, alex. landsburg~marad.dot.gov or Robed Owens at 202-366-1689, robertowens~fta.dot.gov
You've done a great service by posting that.
I have taken the liberty of copying your post to an email which I sent to the Philadelphia Education Fund, a United Way Agency which works closely with the Philadelphia School District and have a College Access program. I have asked them to pass the information along to their counselors and school district contacts.
Have you shared this with any schools in DC?
I am headed for NY in a couple of weeks to testify at the Second Av Subway SDEIS hearing. Perhaps I will pass by Bayside High School on the way from my in-laws' house and provide the principal's office with a copy of this posting and a URL.
Thanks again for posting.
Note: The direct link did not appear to work this morning. That's OK, because within the education server, an icon for the contest was available.
In trying to ID rolling stock:
How can you tell an R44 from an R46 from appearance alone, inside or out.
From pictures in James Clifford Greller's book, "New York City Subway Cars", it appears that ORIGINALLY there were small "doors" below the inner front lights. They seem to have disappeared after the rebuilding.
A small description of R-44 vs. R-46 is in the subway FAQ (look at the top of the SubTalk board page for the link).
As to the "doors," yes, those were on the R-46s as built, but they were removed during the overhaul ca. 1990.
David
I read it. Here it is:
R-44/R-46: IND/BMT cars. The first 75' cars, stainless steel. Subtle physical differences, mechanical differences more significant. Introduced in 1971-1973, R-44 class cars also serve on the Staten Island Railway. The 75' cars cannot run on the BMT Eastern Division lines (J-M-Z-L) due to clearance problems. General overhaul, 1988-92.
It gives absolutely no information about how to tell the difference between the cars.
Can they be identified as 44 or 46 by sight?
R46 interior - Missing the plexiglass windows on both sides of the doors when you walk into the car. While the R44 still has them in place.
There are some cosmetic differences -- painted carbon steel "belly band" on R-44 vs. stainless steel "belly band" (the blank area between the two sets of horizontal stripes) on the R-46, the "look" of the stainless steel sheathing, etc. The subject comes up every few weeks, so anyone interested might want to look in the archives (and, as a suggestion, David P. might want to consider adding the information from those posts to the FAQ).
David
Currently all R-44s run on the A and Rockaway Park Shuttle.
All R-46s reside in Jamaica Yard and operate on routes based out of that yard (E, F, G, R, and V).
if u notice on the R44s, they have westcode brakes. listen to the difference when they release. also underneath the threshold plate under the doors of R44s they have dots or something. R46s do not have that. Not to mention R44s have Westinghouse 1447-F motors while R46 has 1257 GE motors. listen to the takeoff and u will notice the sound difference. The R44s used to run the F back in the day, but now they are only found on A or Rockaway Shuttle. no where else
also R44 numbers go from 5200-5400 series. R46 is 5500s to 6200 something. look at the roster on subtalk or refer to another subtalker for further details.
I saw a train of 5400 something "R" train cars, and they were definitely R-46's.
Stuart, RLine86Man
R44 by St Louis square door frames with R46 by Pullman Standard rounded door frames from the outside. interior vertually no difference till you notice the armrests at the window r44 is more squared to the R46 rounded armrests molded into the walls. In the A cars the cab doors on R44 are smaller and open into the cab. R 46 sliding cab door. Exteriors the R44 has a visible band along sides which were once painted blue
Those "doors" on the R46 were covers for Hostler pockets. Allegedly, you could plug in a portable hostler to run the brake controls and power up to series position. Why anyone would want to sit on the anticlimbers to run a train is beyond reason. Perhaps an old timer here could confirm its use.
Carbody diagrams in the NYCTA R-44/46 Motorman's Trouble Shooting Guide (October, 1977) label the doors as "hostler pockets". In describing their function however, the book says they contained jumper cables and sockets that could be used to bypass defective electric portion(s).
That was so cool in the designing of these cars. The closest I ever came to this type of operation was back when married pairs were separated in the barns for inspections. At Pitkin for example, the R27/30s could be cut through the H2 couplers on the #2 ends for electric portion inspection. Since one car didn't have both electric and air, the compressor car was charged, and a jumper was connected from the bulkhead plugs on each car end. The compressor car tapped off the B+ to allow control of motors and air brakes. Its a shame with all the bypass protection on the R46, the Loop Transfer, Generators and hostlers that they didn't figure out the cars need a damned battery. It would have been nice to keep those goodies through overhaul.
The cabs in the r/44s have less room than the r/46s. The r/46s with the roomier cabs , do so at the expense of the number of passanger seating in the passenger compartment.
avid
Absolutely correct. The R-44 'A' car will seat 72 people while the much roomier R-46 cab reduces the seating in the 'A' car all the way down to 70 people. Both have a practical load capacity of 272 people and a max. design load of 350 people.
The R-44 'A' car will seat 72 people while the much roomier R-46 cab reduces the seating in the 'A' car all the way down to 70 people. Both have a practical load capacity of 272 people and a max. design load of 350 people.
The service load capacity for all 75 foot cars is 175 passengers.
The car interiors are a nominal 75x10 for 750 sq ft. That would be 2.14 sq ft per passenger with 350 people loaded. According to the TRB's Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual: "Totally intolerable: 0.2 m2 (2.2 ft2)is the least amount of space that is occasionaly accepted."
My figures are correct according to the "Passenger Car Data 1947 - 1976" book put out by New Car Engineering of NYCT (page 14 & 15).
My source is the Manhattan East Side Transit Alternatives MIS/DEIS Table 9D-12, which is no longer on the MTA website. This table cites "NYCT Division of Operations Planning/Facilities & Equipment Planning, Subway Vehicle Passenger Capacities, December 18, 1992". The figures in this table for the R44/46 are: 74 seated; 175 guideline and 260 crush. The figures for the R68/68A are: 70 seated; 175 guideline and 255 crush.
The guideline figure of 175 is used in other planning documents. If you search on 175 - you'll come to the passage.
There is one possibility that was alluded to by the TRB's "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual" on page 3-30 last paragraph:
"Manufacturer specified passenger laoding --total, maximum, full, or crush load does not necessarily represent a realistic occupancy level. Rather it reflects applying a set criteria -- such as 5 or occasionally 6 passengers per square meter (2.2 to 1.8 ft2/p)--to the floor space remaining after seating space is deducted. In particular crush load can represent the theoretical, and often unattainable, laoding used to calculate vehicle structural strength or the minimum traction equipment performance."
This is only a guess because the document you cited was "New Car Engineering".
I was a member of the engineering team for the R46 overhaul project and thought I would lend a few comments to this interesting discussion.
The windows on the side of each side door alluded to by a reader are called windscreens in TA parlance. They also went a design change in overhaul on the R46 cars.The original structure was a honeycomb which was easy to vandalize and difficult to find parts to replace. The overhaul consists of a piece of plywood with rosewood paneling on each side. The R44 kept the window glass although if memory serves me correctly they used high strength safety glass instead of plexiglass as quoted by one reader. It may be afterwards the shops replaced the glass with plexi because of ease of available material.
The belly band is carbon steel on the R44 and stainless steel on the R46.
The hostler idea basically was thought to be useful in the yards since the R46 cars individually do not have cabs on both ends. This idea was made obsolete on overhaul upon introduction of the four car unit concept to improve reliability. The number of A and B cars do not divide evenly into four car units and some were made married pairs.
The brake system is a New York Air Brake system which is essentially the same as the R62A brake system except for the single handle controller and some other changes.
I hope I have shed some light on some of the questions raised by listers.
1. The Motorman's cab door on the R44s are narrow and open inward. The Motorman's cab door on the R46s are wider and opens sideways.
2. There are three seats at the cab end of the R44s vs. two seats at the cab end of the R46s.
3. The arm rests on the R44s (beneath the windows) are pretty much rectangular cut-outs and are quite uncomfortable whereas the arm rest on the R46s they are not.
4. The interior door indicator lights (along the wall) on the R44s are smaller than those on the R46s.
5. The side door window frames on the R44s (most of the R44s rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen ONLY) are smooth as opposed to the R46s door frame which look like they are folded somewhat.
6. The side wall paneling on the R44s are one piece whereas on the R46s appears to be two pieces. I say this because you will notice on the R46 there is a crack going along the panel just above the advertising frame but just below the door indicator lights.
7. The braking noise of the R44s are loud and hard whereas the braking noise of the R46s are lower and smooth sounding.
8. The R44s sound similar but not exactly like R32s, R42s, R68/68As when accelerating and decelarating whereas the R46s sound similar to R40s.
9. The R44s have glass on both side of the doors whereas the R46s glass were removed during overhauling.
10. The exterior of the R44s are painted gray just below the windows (with the exception of 5228 and 5229), whereas the R46s are not.
11. The car numbers of the R44s are 5202-5479 whereas the R46s are 5482-62xx.
12. Last but not least, look for the manufacturer's plate inside the cars. R44s were manufactured by St. Louis Car Builders whereas the R46s were manufactured by Pullman Standard.
I hope I was able to help you. If I have missed anything, please feel free to comment.
Your figure of 750 Sq. ft. is meaningless unless you are going to put people under the seats and under the t/o console. The new car engineering figure is 610 sq. ft. of open floor space for every 75' car.
Your figure of 750 Sq. ft. is meaningless unless you are going to put people under the seats and under the t/o console. The new car engineering figure is 610 sq. ft. of open floor space for every 75' car.
The 610 ft2 is interesting but irrelevant, unless one plans to penalize seated passengers by having a standee stand directly on their feet.
Let's go by the book. Each seated passenger takes up 5.4 ft2. I'm going to ignore the differential for transverse seats (4.3 ft2) because the R44/46 do not make use of the pitch of the seatback. So, in a cabless car with 76 seated passengers that comes to 326.8 ft2. If I subtract this from the nominal 750 ft2 total area from the car, this leaves 423.2 ft2 for the 274 standees (350 - 76). That leave them each 1.54 ft2. Again, 2.2 is regarded as "totally intolerable". I did not think further elaboration would be necessary when this threshold had been breached, assuming all standees.
Suppose the capacity were calculated using the 2.2 thershold for crushload standees and 4.3 for service/guideline level standees. The result would be 268 for crush loads and 174 for guidelines. This is remarkably close the TA's figures of 255 and 175 in the reference that I previously cited.
With all due respect to the TA's "New Car Engineering", they are overstating the cars' carrying capacity by more than a third.
1. The Motorman's cab door on the R44s are narrow and open inward. The Motorman's cab door on the R46s are wider and opens sideways.
2. There are three seats at the cab end of the R44s vs. two seats at the cab end of the R46s.
3. The arm rests on the R44s (beneath the windows) are pretty much rectangular cut-outs and are quite uncomfortable whereas the arm rest on the R46s they are not.
4. The interior door indicator lights (along the wall) on the R44s are smaller than those on the R46s.
5. The side door window frames on the R44s (most of the R44s rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen ONLY) are smooth as opposed to the R46s door frame which look like they are folded somewhat.
6. The side wall paneling on the R44s are one piece whereas on the R46s appears to be two pieces. I say this because you will notice on the R46 there is a crack going along the panel just above the advertising frame but just below the door indicator lights.
7. The braking noise of the R44s are loud and hard whereas the braking noise of the R46s are lower and smooth sounding.
8. The R44s sound similar but not exactly like R32s, R42s, R68/68As when accelerating and decelarating whereas the R46s sound similar to R40s.
9. The R44s have glass on both side of the doors whereas the R46s glass were removed during overhauling.
10. The exterior of the R44s are painted gray just below the windows (with the exception of 5228 and 5229), whereas the R46s are not.
11. The car numbers of the R44s are 5202-5479 whereas the R46s are 5482-62xx.
12. Last but not least, look for the manufacturer's plate inside the cars. R44s were manufactured by St. Louis Car Builders whereas the R46s were manufactured by Pullman Standard.
I hope I was able to help you. If I have missed anything, please feel free to comment.
Look at the details at the top of the doors. On the R-44s there is a long trim piece at the top of the door opening. This trim piece isn't present on the R-46s. In the inside the windscreens were retained on the R-44s, but they weren't retained on the R-46s. One last item. The door into the operator's cab is smaller on the R-44 than it is on the R-46.
#3 West End Jeff
When it farts at you from full service, you know its a 44.
Where does the "fart" emanate from?
#3 West End Jeff
Know we are cooking with the testing the 5 line. I wonder on what day will they will actually being running them on the 5.
I certainly hope very soon!!! It has been one week since tests began and the routine is one month for scheduled maintainance. I expect to run a crew in three weeks but my fingers aren't crossed. CI Peter
Hi,
Im coming back to nyc this week... I would like to ride some of the lines I have never gone out on..
But here is my question... is it safe to ride on the following:
A out to Far Rockaway
L to Canarsie
A to upper manhattan
other lines to bronx?
I would ride during midday and would like to take a lot of pictures.
Thanks,
Allen
Rockaway, Canarsie, and Inwood are safe and I imagine the Bronx is too. I just don't reccommend railfanning after evening rush hour.
Good advise, also try NOT to look like a tourist, i.e. not short pants, silly hat, or big camera & bags hanging in front of you. If you blend in with everyone else & occasionaly pull out a camera to take a photo you'll have a good time & not be bothered. Also if the area doesn't look great to you, then don't temp fate by hanging around or exploring the extreams of the station, i.e. Far Rockaway don't go out of fare control by yourself even though there are interesting things to see.
Doing it with a friend(s) helps too.
P.S. I've been to most of those areas you mentioned & no one has bothered this WASP ... maybe the 6' 6" helped. Also worked on the East Side at 116th for 11 years without a problem (got bumped once on purpose, but I didn't do anything about & the group went on their way)
Mr rt__:^)
The A out of 207th street is fine. And the A out to Far Rockaway is no problem. Enjoy the ride over the "Flats." The train can get up some pretty good speed on the "Flats." But don't leave the station at Far Rock. That neighborhood could be a little rough.
Don't worry about the L train - Canarsie is fine.
Take any train you like to the Bronx. But ride in the lead car so you're in the same car as the T/O (better for railfanning anyway.)
If you're hoping for a "Redbird" - try the #2 White Plains Road line. They still run some "Redbirds" on the 2 and might have some left by the time you visit.
As for lines to avoid - most lines will be safe enough during the day in the T/O's car. The only one I'd stay away from would be New Lots.
The last few stations going down to New Lots could be pretty rough.
Think of it this way: Travelling in any big city requires some common sense regarding how you handle yourself and how you react to those around you. In any big city, you should stay alert.
Enjoy the ride - you'll be fine.
I'd been meaning to ask, with ref. to my next proposed visit to NYC in the spring. No-one seems to mention the J,M,Z line as something for railfanning -- but it crosses the Williamsburg bridge, it is then an el, it incorporates the oldest bits of trackage on the entire system, and it visits the big elevated junction at East New York, all of which sound interesting. Is it safe to ride? And is it as interesting as it sounds?
The J,M,Z is often overlooked bue it is a good line to ride. The Willamsburg Bridge is a nice run, even if a little slow. It is perfectly safe, although between Myrtle and Broadway junction the neighborhood is a little rough, but if you stay on the train you should be fine. After Broadway junction the neighborhood is neither heaven nor hell. The M is also a pretty cool run. It runs over it's own ROW after Seneca Avenue, and at the end near Metropolitan, you'll get a nice view of the NYCRR Bridge over the LIRR and a view of NYA Frexh Pond Yard. At that end the neighborhood is very safe and not bad at all.
Walk across the Willie B and take pix of the J/M/Z crossing it.
Bway Junction / East NY is a maze of steelwork, some of which won't exist in a few years, so I'd also suggest getting out for a look.
The station complex is busy enough durign the day where taking pix shouldn't be problem.
--Mark
The J/Z to Jamaica is a very pleasent ride (you get very close to buildings & it twists & turns it's way). At Jamaica you can take the LIRR back (either Flatbush or Penn Sta are both nice rides).
The M to Metropolitian is also very nice. At the end there's a coffee shop to take a break. A little dirty, but has a lot of charm (many of the kids from the local school hang out there & have their photos posted).
P.S. Caught a railfan window equiped car on both routes.
Mr rt__:^)
The J/Z to Jamaica is a very pleasent ride (you get very close to buildings & it twists & turns it's way). At Jamaica you can take the LIRR back (either Flatbush or Penn Sta are both nice rides).
Or you can transfer to the Queens Blvd line at Jamaica Center or Sutphin.
P.S. Caught a railfan window equiped car on both routes.
That's another great thing about the M/J/Z. You are ALWAYS guaranteed a railfan window, at least until the new R143's come along, but that'll be a while.
From the J/Z at Sutpin Blvd. [Or you can transfer to the Queens Blvd line (E) ...]
True, but if you've never done the LIRR, the price is right from there. Doing 50 or 60 above Atlantic Ave. is a treat.
Mr rt__:^)
Can't argue with that!
Do it every day here..........LOOOOOOVE IT!
What can I say, I'm a SPEED DEMON!!! *laughing maniacally!*
"This is Atlantic Coast Railway # 690 to Washington, D.C./Union Station. The next stop is: Baltimore Penn Station."
Stuart, RLine86Man
Future Engineer on the Atlantic Coast Railway (VR for MSTS)
J,M,Z's are fine, just don't get off Myrtle to Chauncey, after dark, to look around.
>> No-one seems to mention the J,M,Z line as something for railfanning -- but it crosses the Williamsburg bridge, it is then an el, it incorporates the oldest bits of trackage on the entire system, and it visits the big elevated junction at East New York, all of which sound interesting. Is it safe to ride? And is it as interesting as it sounds? <<
I lead a charmed life, so I can't vouch for the safety of anything. The J/Z is as interesting as it sounds though. I sometimes take that from Manhattan for a change just for the view, but only if I'm in no hurry.
[If you're hoping for a "Redbird" - try the #2 White Plains Road line. They still run some "Redbirds" on the 2 and might have some left by the time you visit.]
The 5 runs along the same line between 149-Grand Concourse and East 180 Street. There's a greater chance of catching a Redbird on that line as most of the 2's are now of R142 cars.
R36 #9346 makes a good point here. The Dyre line (AKA #5 line) is also likely to have "Redbird" eqpt. The plus side of taking a ride on the Dyre is that you will be going along the old right of way of the former NY Westchester & Boston RR between E 180 street and Dyre. This is a unique bit of RR that is now surface level and elevated subway. If you get any kind of chance, try out this line as it's probably a better idea than my original suggestion.
Far Rockaway does appear a little rough, but during the daytime nobody'll bother you. There's a lot of transportation there other than the train, 3 LI bus routes (one which goes to Long Beach) plus the LIRR a few blocks away (if you know how to get there).
I'd actually recommend going to Rockaway Park instead (or also). Sure, you have to transfer to a dinky shuttle, but the terminal station and area are much, much better. The station has some sort of police command center, clean (well, let's not exaggerate... decent) restrooms for both men and women, there's a store/eating place attached to the station building just outside fare control. The station is on street level, and the building is the original LIRR station building that was around way back when.
If you are in the Rocaways at lunch time, then Rockaway Park would be the better way to go, but I prefer the el to Far Rockaway for the ride.
Mr rt__:^)
In case you go to Far Rockaway, there's a White Castle on Mott Avenue and Beach Channel Drive (turn left when leaving the station).
Also you might want to take a ride on the N33 to Long Beach and then take the LIRR back (or vice-versa), you can also go down to the LIRR station nearby for an LIRR trip, go down Redfern Avenue to Nameoke Street.
If you go to Rockaway Park, you could take the Q35 to Brooklyn, it runs to the Flatbush Junction (2/5). The Q35 goes through a very nice part of Rockaway (Belle Harbor, Neponsit). It's normal route is via Newport Avenue, along which I've never been since the first time the bus I got was late and went nonstop along Beach Channel Drive, the second time was after AA 587 and the bus used Rockaway Beach Boulevard.
I should point out that I enjoy the trip more than the mode and that I hate backtracking. The Rockaways are definitely recommended.
Which bus was that that went via Beach Cahnnel?
the some sort of police "command center" is just NYPD Transit district 23
If you go to Far Rockaway. Avoid being out there after 2:30 pm. 2 High Schools out there. The kids are fine. But just be careful of crowds.
The L line is ok. Juat don't spemd too much time at the stations from Eastern Pkwy to B105. Observe the platforms before getting off.
Upper Manhattan. Think fast and be ready to move as fast.
As a rule, the areas are fine for middays. Just use a little common sense.
Both ends of the A train are fine to ride to; the Inwood area is OK to walk around - I have walked from the A at Inwood-207th St. to the 1 train at 207th St during the day time. The 30+-mile long ride on the A is an impressive journey!
I understand that the 1 train to 242-Van Cortlandt Park and the 6 to Pelham Bay Park are both very safe areas in the Bronx. I would be more cautious about the others (2, 4, 5, B/D), but you should be OK just about anywhere during midday hours.
Don't knock the area around the #4 and the B/D area if you never been there. It is one of the safest area's in the Northwest Bronx. I should know living in this area all of my 45 years and never had any trouble at all no matter what the time. It is part of the 52 police pct in which crime is way down. just keep your eyes open after Midnight.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Northwest Bronx.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to knock any areas, just meant to say that I don't know anything about the Bronx ends of the 2, 4, 5, and B/D. Thanks for the information - I will have to check those lines out the next time I am in NYC.
Agreed. I've videotaped the 2/5 and 4 El structures from the platforms and street this past summer w/o any problems.
"Changing of the Guard II" coming soon to a VCR near you :)
--Mark
i live by the 238 street stop on the #1 (one stop from VC). Is is VERY good area, Van Cortlant park is very nice, and Manhattan College is just up the hill from the 242 VCP station.
I wouldn't be afraid of any of the Bronx terminals. Since I don't like backtracking, when I first rode the Jerome and Concourse lines, I did them in one day by using the Bx16 between them. I opted to walk along Bainbridge Avenue, but a Bx16 showed up when I was part of the way through. The 18-minute lockout on my student pass (at the time) prevented me from entering the 205th Street station, so I went to a McDonald's while waiting.
When I rode the 2-train out, I took Metro-North back. The Wakefield station is a short distance along 241st Street, but the station sees only hourly service, so get a schedule if you want to do this.
I have never been outside the Dyre Avenue terminal, when I took the 5 and 6 for the first time, I backtracked to Pelham Parkway and took the Bx12.
I forgot to mention: When Jersey Mike and I tried to ride the whole subway (and gave up) we walked between the two Bedford Park stations and ate at a Chinese restaurant along the way.
Dont you dare think about riding any of those lines and dont let anyone tell you otherwise, they are deathtraps and the odds are always greatly against you, especially if you are from out of town, people along these lines especially ride the trains on these lines to prey on tourists, so successful you'd swear they can smell foreigners. Even native new yorkers get chills in their backs when they hear about these lines. Dont even try it, they'll smell the camera 20 miles away!
Oh come on, the L and the A aren't that bad. (I can't speak for the Bronx lines because I am not as familiar with them.) I've even used the East New York LIRR station and Atlantic Ave L station a few times.
The only time I ever got freaked out was about 10 years ago on the 3 at New Lots. I was about 20 at the time. A friend of mine and I were railfanning it (with camera bags) and somewhere near the end of the line a whole group of guys with knives came up to us (we were at the railfan window). I think they were thinking about robbing us, but all of a sudden something freaked them out, and they thought we were cops, and backed off. Maybe they actually couldn't believe that two clueless white boys would venture there with cameras or what but they left all of a sudden and got out at Van Siclen..........never been back there.
The only time I ever got freaked out was ... on the 3 at New Lots.
That's one of two lines that have given me the creeps... the other was the 2 down around Newkirk Avenue about six years ago. I was the only white person on a fairly crowded train, and a couple of characters were trying to figure out how to relieve me of my wallet and/or camera bag. Fortunately, another passenger (much bigger than either of them) saw what was going on and protected me until they got off, obviously frustrated, around Winthrop or Sterling.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We covered both of those lines last fall and had no problems. I definitely would not want to be on either one after dark, though.
Maybe the T/O came out from his cab behind you guys...
I'm Chinese, what if I were to go to New Lots?
"I'm Chinese, what if I were to go to New Lots?"
You'd still be Chinese when you got there :-)
Seriously: I'm going to say now what I always say when someone writes in asking about which areas are "safe," by which he or she really means "secure" (safety is a different issue: for example, tripping over something (safety) vs. having it thrown at you by a miscreant (security)).
There is only one member of the NYPD on this board as far as I am aware. He posts infrequently and to the best of my recollection has never posted crime statistics. Anybody who wants to know which areas are "safe" should contact the NYPD and ask for crime statistics:
New York Police Department
1 Police Plaza
New York NY 10038
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/home.html
Replies to threads such as this one that provide "information" about various parts of the city, while well-intentioned (at least for the most part), reflect perceptions and opinions that may not be rooted in fact.
David
(he will read this reply anyways) go to the NYPD website and go to visit a precinct, there you can view the statistics for that precinct, New lots and East New York being 75 pct, the transit districts dont post their statistics because they are recorded differently, I dont want to get into how, too lazy to type.
I hope all of you understood I was being *EXTREMELY* Sarcastic, those who know me on the boead know I dont like the overly cautious, I deliver the truth, none ofthe lines you proposed are dangerous, you can ride them in the middle of the night and they are relatively busy espcecially while in mahattan. the trend is like so...After 9 , people crowd levels drop then around 11 it picks up again til labout 2:30 then from there till 5 its pretty quiet, the only warning i must make is about new Lots, dont go there after 8pm and definetly dont catch yourself there when the school kids are coming back, you WONT like it I promise.
Wise words from an Auxillary
-Seven
All right now what you said makes more sense. And as i posted already to your message, I think everyone agrees about New Lots. That is the "scariest' line even in the daytime. It's the only line I would avoid and the Flatbush spur subway line in Brooklyn also, that one is just underground anyway, not worth the risk.
yea but nostrand junction isnt dangerous in the daytime till about 10 pm, there is a lot of shopping there and a lot of people, its also rastariffic but i wont get into that, i wouldnt call flatbush Ave dangerous at all, except during the school rush when things get a little rowdy, but thats okay, I just dont like some subtalkers scaring the living Shiznizit out of tourists by labeling areas 'iffy' UGH I hate that word, a lot of times people wave off an area they dont know nothing about, and when I see thats being done, Ill let them know about it.
I agree with you completely. I am used to the subway and can take a lot, and don't mind most of the neighborhoods the subway runs through, especially when I am with someone, but the only line I won't give a total green light to, to anyone visiting New York, is the end of the 3 line (well now the 1 line) in New Lots. That's because I had a bad experience on it , as I mentioned, and that was in the middle of the day around 12:00! But it has been more than 10 years and I don't know if it changed any.
its the land trapped in time, thats why I like to occasionaly visit new lots, besides I knwo people who live there which gives me an excuse
New Lots got better since you were last there, believe me...
BMTman
Wh'ca tawkin' 'bout 'rastariffic', mon? Me tink you be makin' derogatory r'mark about de dudes who enjoy a good splif. Is dat true, mon? Ire! Ya Blood clot, mon!
eh yo bradda, I and I nah make no r'mark 'pon mi braddas, I is Ras Tafari, HIM Selassie Almighty JAH! an' me wear dem dreds with pride place fi place.
Subtalk would be much more interesting if everyone spoke in Patois.
LOL!
Ya gots me mon! ROTFLMAO!
Yo! Pass dat bone, mon ... first you choke de chicken. Den you put da ganga in da chicken. Den you smoke de chicken. Damned city boys. :)
Ya, mon. Now ye tawkin' me language...pass dat bone if you pleaz,..
LOL!
It's a long reach, don't be dropping it mon ... :)
I'll use my Rasta clips for it, mon....tanks...
Heh. You're more likely to need the old "Our Gang" scissors on the car implement to reach this far, bro. Now don't be a Bogart. :)
You just made my day.
Moo! :)
Subtalk would be much more interesting if everyone spoke in Patois.
'Cept Mistah BMTmon don't know dis be a family site :^)
Lessons on how to make a family will be offered in the transverse at the far end of the train. Step lively. :)
....and watch those closely doors....OUCH!!!
;-D
" It's the only line I would avoid and the Flatbush spur subway line in
Brooklyn also, that one is just underground anyway, not worth the risk. "
Nonsense. It's risky for people who demonstrate poor social skills. Not a problem for anyone else. I've ridden that line, and wouldn't hesitate to ride it again.
Your comment about New Lots is well taken, though. It's unfortunate.
Nonsense. It's risky for people who demonstrate poor social skills. Not a problem for anyone else. I've ridden that line, and wouldn't hesitate to ride it again.
I used to ride that line deliberately every day, while high school students were riding it. There have been a number of times when I walked to it, down SCARY Flatbush Avenue.
Your comment on social skills is correct.
Good for you!
I once had an interview at King's County Hospital. On the way out of the interview I stopped to get a lemon pastry. Since I only had tokens the store proprietor said I could pay with a subway token. As I was walking out, feeding my face, the guy said, "You forgot your change."
I told him to keep the change, and thanks for his treating me so courteously.
That's pretty cool. Well basically tokens are "money". It probably won't work so well with a metrocard though. No one can tell how much money is on it. It's sort of like the end of an era. I'm all for metrocard, but tokens, as they become extinct, have been such a NY tradition.
So were nickels. In fact, the same number of years passed from the time the subway opened to the time the fare went up to 10¢ as the time from the establishment of the token to the ubiquitization of the Metrocard.
I have to agree with you on that one Ron. 'Cuz when i come up to NYC to railfan from time to time and I never felt that way. I don't feel that Flatbush spur or Far Rockaway is scary. I think the issue goes further than what he's actaully saying though...Do ya feel me?
Light Rail Chic
Oh come on, that's not what I was saying AT ALL, and I won't even address the subject you are trying to bring up.
I wasn't trying to start ANYTHING. FYI i was just simply stating for MYSELF and if YOU feel as though i was trying to start, then it must've was exactly what i thought. And if it wasn't then you should've just ignored my post. Think about it...?
But you have a good weekend anyway.
Light Rail Chic
You know you're not going to get off scot-free when you dis the Flatbush spur.
It ends at an institute of fine learning - Brooklyn College, which offers a respected diploma to this day!
I'm sorry, I just meant that there are so many cool els and stuff to do for a visitor, why would you bother with the Flatbush spur when there is the A line to Rockaway, or one of the Bronk els , or the J,M,Z (my personal favorite), or the L line which has the best mosaics in the system and offers subway, el, private ROW, etc, all in one ride. It's not worth your time if you never did one of the other lines first. When you've been here a few times and you did all those, then move on to the Flatbush spur which has some grat mosaics, and stuff, but basically is all underground.
Always had a feeling about that...
As people here have mentioned, on the whole the NYC subway is extremely safe (people have only given the end of only one line to be careful about). I was wondering if our system is safer than most in the country (or even expand it beyond the country if you want), or if compared to others it would not be considered as safe. Any comments on this?
I have to say that I feel very secure in our subway. I have been riding the subway (regularly) since I was a freshman in High School, which was around 1984, and watched it progress to the great system it has returned to. (I don't know it before the 70's, but remember it was a total mess from the 70's right into the early 80's). In that time I have only had two times that I had a problem, the worst being the one at New Lots I mentioned earlier in this thread that happened about about 1990. (The only line I would avoid) The other was minor compared:
Once on the J around 1985 I was alone in a car on the Williamsburg and some guy kept looking at me from the other end of the car. He then asked me directions at the map and as I was explaning he grabbed my crotch. As a 15 year old it scared the hell out of me and luckily at Marcy some people got on, and he left. (The J/M was safe then and even better today, it was my own stupidity, for even getting up to give him directions, when he was already making me nervous from the other end of the car)
I've felt safe on every subway I've ridden (numbering in the tens).
A good question is what factors are there that lead people to feel safe in a system? This is what i think:
1) Stations that are clean. A dirty station looks like trouble. Who thinks Chambers Street kind of creepy?
2) Lots of people. If a station/train is crowded, there's less of a chance someone will go after you.
3) Presence of employees/police. What kind of psycho will try something with employees around?
For me, the safest subway I've ridden is Sao Paulo. Despite the fact that the city itself is very dangerous, the subway is completely different. This subway has the second highest ridership intensity in the world, employees/police are everywhere, cameras are everywhere and you can see the booths with one or two personnel monitoring the TVs. The stations are also spotless.
I don't know what most of these people are talking about concerning Far Rockaway. It is like most other neighborhoods in this city - no worse, no better. You just use common sense. For example, I wouldn't advise pulling out a camera and start snapping pictures anywhere in New York City after 9:00 pm (although I have done this on several occasions); or being the only one in an entire subway car.
But during the day you can definately ride the "A" to Far Rockaway and EVEN LEAVE THE FARE PAID AREA of the station if you want to take pictures or get a bite to eat.
Both Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park have their advantages. With Far Rockaway, you have a greater variety of transportation. Also, you have a greater diversity of restaurants. On that 3 block stretch of Mott Ave. you have anything from fast food chains to your typical American diners to Spanish and Caribbean restaurants to choose from.
Rockaway Park Station on the other hand has the advantage of being near two bodies of water. One block to the right of the station, will get you to Jamaica Bay. One block to the left of the station will get you to the boardwalk, beach and ocean.
Take it from me, a Far Rockaway resident for over 25 years, Far Rockaway is not as bad as a lot of these posters are portraying it to be.
I decided to try lunch at Far Rockaway today instead of my usual choice of Wendy's Wendy's and Wendy's, and noticed that fish outlet across from the coffee shoppe and McDs. Do they serve fried fish and chips there? Didn't look like they cook anything there.
That fish joint does not serve fried fish. Also, you have a White Castle across from McD's, a deli, a pizza joint, a diner, and an el cheapo fried chicken place. Not to mention the chinese food place in the 3/4's abandoned shopping center.
>> A out to Far Rockaway <<
Far Rockaway is probably among the dingiest stations in the system, and the neighborhood isn't great, but I wouldn't be afraid to look around the station. The ride on the A is unique and well worth it. You will get to see Kennedy Airport from an unusual perspective; even at night just to see all the lights is pleasant.
I will be away from the evening of Monday, February 11, 2002, until the afternoon of Monday, February 18, 2002. During that time, I will not have access to e-mail or the Internet (and thus, no SubTalk). No updates to my website (orenstransitpage.com) will occur during this time, nor will I be able to answer e-mails. See you all again next week, have a restful holiday weekend.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Read the article here: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/11/terror.warning/index.html -Nick
Tuesday we have to be careful. Just my luck. For the first time since September I have to work Canal St again.
You'll probably have to worry more about bumping into dancing Dragons and Lions today, there's alot of celebrations going on in Chinatown for the Chinese New Year. And watch out for the dragon clips, they will get you.
What are dragon clips, and why do none of the asian women I know wear them? You are always mentioning them.
Here are their photos, in case you're wondering who to look for.
Just my luck, my wife is flying to Chicago on business tonight.
At least she has a good insurance policy if she goes down in the line of duty. And, she called from the airport and indicated that it wasn't crowded at all.
Just my luck, my wife is flying to Chicago on business tonight.
At least she has a good insurance policy if she goes down in the line of duty. And, she called from the airport and indicated that it wasn't crowded at all.
Fear not, she'll be perfectly safe. Flying now is probably safer than ever before - anybody who'd try to hijack a plane now would get jumped on by every other passenger on board. You'd have 80-year-old grandmothers jumping into the fray.
Flying now is probably safer than ever before - anybody who'd try to hijack a plane now would get jumped on by every other passenger on board.
That's probably true. It's not that airport security is that much better, it's that I don't think any passengers on a plane will stand for that crap again. Unfortunately for those on the first three planes on the 11th, they really didn't realize what they were in for. By the time the last plane found out what was happening, we all know what happened. Unfortunately it was too late, even for them. I don't think anyone will allow it to get that far again.
Just call it "Brown Streak Tuesday".
Don't forget to carry a spare 'Depends'....;-D
See: The Gate Cars on the Brooklyn Elevated After World War II.
This is something I'm trying out. My objective is to capture some of the interesting snippets of history that many of us have personally experienced. Things that record details of ordinary life that you probably won't find in a formal history or from public or company records.
Of course I know others have done similar things. American Heritage (IIRC) has a regular column in which people describe having met a famous person or being at a famous event. But I'd liek to start recording some of the interesting not-so-famous things that will be lost when the people are gone. It's important that these things be "first person" though I think I would include described experiences of very close relatives, like parents.
Not at all intending this to be transit only or even mainly, or things in the distant past.
What do you guys think of this?
I think it's a good idea, especially in this field. Outside of major events, the record of the NYC subway and elevated system is spotty at best, and those with memories of the latter and of the days when the original IRT and BMT cars ran are becoming fewer and fewer all the time. Any recollections that cae be saved for future refrence, no matter how esoteric are a plus.
That does sound very interesting, Paul. Perhaps would you be interested in some input from me ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Absolutely, Bill. I know you've got many memories that will be interesting and valuable.
Since I want to encourage people to contribute their memories, I don't want to be at all rigid, but I guess I'll post a few ground rules or talking points ASAP to get people started. But basically I think we should have first hand accounts of almost anything, relatively short and on a single subject. They don't need to be literary masterpieces, just readable. Speaking in your own natural voice, as when people post on Subtalk, is the best.
I think people enjoy and are more likely to read a piece, and understand it better, if we get at least one picture to go along with the item. Obviously it must be either something you took yourself, or have the rights to reproduce. This is NOT a requirement. If any contributor doesn't have a picture, I'll see if I have something suitable in my files, or maybe we have to do without.
I'll post something for everyone to read as soon as I can.
Thanks for offering, Bill!
There's a new book about Brooklyn that just came out called "Brooklyn: A State of Mind" by Michael W. Robbins (Editor), Wendy Palitz (Designer) that seems to be the style of the stories you're looking to collect. It's not history per se, but it has some historical elements in it, and it's a compendium of experiences from "real" people.
It's a good read, too, I might add. (And I got it cheaper than the $20.96 Amazon.com is currently offering it for.)
--Mark
And also the Transit Museum, I think, commissioned a book a few years ago, of stories of transit workers.
But I'm looking to preserve historic snippets of just about anything, especially if it might be lost otherwise.
I'm hoping I can get my brother to get his nose out of his Shakespeare scholarship to write some of his experiences from old Brooklyn, though I don't think he values undigested old memories as much as I do. He had an "in" at the old Alan Freed shows when they came to the Brooklyn Paramount. I guess he was a pretty engaging kid, because he knew Freed and some of the groups and people. Can you imagine watching Frankie Lymon perform from backstage? In my own memory, the Palace of Silver Leaf (43 Marlborough Road) hosted The Cadillacs for dinner one night. At my young age, the thing I remember best was that one of the band members (I think it was Jesse Powell, the saxman) had a watch with little diamonds instead of hands, that moved around the watchface from underneath by magnets.
I am looking for other persons who are interested in subways, railfaning, old stations etc. I live in Florida ,but travel to NYC every so often. I would like to know if there is any gay/lesbian rainfan groups or web pages in the New York city area.
Thanks
Robert
There is I met one of them years ago. He said they hang out at a leather bar on the west side wearing engineer boots of course.
This information is 10 years old and I have no idea where this guy is.
Going by more than four decades experience, railfanning groups in virtually any big city have always been extraordinarily inclusive, back to before Stonewall, and while Jim Crow was still alive. Any railfans who you would be likely to meet in an alternative setting you would be likely to also meet in a regular group (and then some).
I'd be sad if gay or minority or any other group of railfans who might want to socialize separately under other circumstances withdrew themselves into specialized railfan groups.
Paul: Do you recall during the 60's there were several blind railfans who used to turn up at ERA meetings and on fantrips. They were very knowledgeable about the equiptment and could usually tell what type of car you were on from the sound. I wonder what ever became of them?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry: I don't recall the blind railfans. I recall several deaf railfans, one in particular who regularly conversed by passing pad and pen back and forth. Time and tide causes me to forget his name, now.
I really can't imagine any railfan who would want to shun the broader railfan community for social reasons.
Paul Matus wrote
"I really can't imagine any railfan who would want to shun the broader railfan community for social reasons. "
It is kind of difficult to explain why, but being gay is kind of like being part of a specialized social group. The sexuality aspect of it is irrelavent and has no bearing on my previous posting.
I think it is more comfortable to socialize with members of your own "kind", even in an already specialized group (railfans).
I would liken it to ethnic groups or social class groups. It is not to construed as being seperated or discriminatory.
I am NOT trying to distance myself from the mainstream Railfans, I am just trying to meet other gay men who share my similar hobbies and interests in subways.
By the way...if you think this is tough, try meeting other gay Motocross racers (like me).
Thanks... All rainfaners are equal.
ROB
rodco@rodcogroup.com
Ft.Lauderdale Florida
Rob, I feel sorry for you if you truly feel that you have to be with members of your own "kind" to feel comfortable. I happen to be a happily married heterosexual highly educated Jewish male, but I feel comfortable with all sorts of folks, regardless of their marital status, sexual orientation, educational level, or their religious or ethnic group. Here on this board we're all railfans, and the rest is irrelevant. The only folks I'm not comfortable with are those who ask questions and then don't wait for an answer, and those who have an answer for everything, evenespecially when they don't have any idea what they're talking about. But I reckon that's true of most of us.
So welcome to SubTalk. Put your fears aside, and join the fun!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He is on vacation and might want to get laid.
Heh. Good point ... and why not? Before this comes off like some insensitive homophobic rant on my part, I lived in the village and yeah, things in common do help find some "friends" in a strange place. I'll forego the "handle" jokes tho' ... I'm sure 10% of the TA is gay, the numbers tend to hold across all boundaries ... there's more than one way to "bless" a cab. :)
there's more than one way to "bless" a cab.
Oh mannnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!! (cringe, cringe)
Hey ... everybody's gotta get their cookies somehow ... that's why 42nd Street was amusing to watch once upon a time. Same for Christopher Street ... I knew where my own cookies were baked and hey, another reason to leave the cabs alone unless you get PAID to go in there. :)
I thought in rail related matters, only track gets laid.
lol. Oh man, get the hook!
That's worth a rim shot, anyway.
>That's worth a rim shot, anyway.
That might be what he was hoping for considering the topic.
Gotta come out of the cab more often, bro. Them long runs'll do ya in. :)
LOL!
Here in SF I went to a few meetings of the Phoebe Snow Society gay railfans group a couple of years ago. They had a very invloved membership and put out a newsletter too. Can't say if their still around now.
Glad to know of your interest.
There was a group a while back called "The Brown Caboose".
Does it really matter in our fondness for all things transit?
Being a gay man myself, I don't see where a sepration is
necessary.
But that is me, I like to read and comment about subways and busses
my sexuality really is not an issue here
Having said that I would hope everyone is treated fairly and
does not feel to belittle a group of people here, there are other
places for that.
>>>>I would like to know if there is any gay/lesbian rainfan groups or web
pages in the New York city area. <<<
Er, um, what does gayness or straight-itude have to do with being a railfan?
By your logic I would be asking if there are any [fill in the demographic of your choice] Beatle fans.
I don't ask; it doesn't make any difference to me...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have a future title for this post
"Deleted thread"
Referring to my response on a topic "Possible Plan in 2004/2005."
I trying figure out whether Q should remained running via Broadway or Return to 6th Ave Line in 2004.
Let take a vote: Choose A or B.
A. Q should remained running in via Broadway.
B. Q should return to 6th Ave.
Though it would be nice to be on a slant through the dash. It belongs on Broadway. And it's basically needed on B'way.
I would pick A. The Q should remain on B-Way. The only reason it did run on 6th Ave was because of the Manhattan brigde construction
Broadway needs express service. Whether that remains the Q or is taken over by another route, it needs express service.
A - Remain on Broadway
Bill "Newkirk"
A Remain on Broadway, you will have the D on 6th Ave
A - Remain on Broadway. (For those who are unaware, the Q ran on Broadway prior to the Manny B. rebuild project. I don't remember the date that it began.)
Regards,
Danny
Q was ALWAYS Broadway Express while the D was 6th AVe Express and Brighton Express ... when both sides of da bridge were "OK" that's how it was, and how it should be again with both sides open. Your mileage may vary, void where prohibited by management. :)
Right Right Right
A: The Q was, is,and will always be the Bway express. The 6Ave. thing is just a temporary reroute for the Manny B.
A - the Q should remain as the Broadway express service. With the F running via the 63rd Street tunnel, and no room for the Q to continue to Queens, how could it even be turned on 6th Avenue? The 57th St. station is just two tracks.
If the Q goes back to 6th, then it would probably replace the V through 53rd Street. The hours match up pretty closely (M-F, except late nights).
I am inclined to choose Option A. I just don't like the idea of two trains running similar routes with one local and the other express. (eg: B/D Concourse/6th; A/C Wash Hts/8th/Fulton; D/Q Brighton/6th; Q Local/Q Express Brighton/Bway) It leads to unbalanced loading. Everyone wants an express.
The (Q) is property of the Broadway Line.
Sixth Avenue has the (D).
The (D) Should be LOCAL on Brighton, and the (Q) Express
Elias
I vote for A. The Q should remain on Broadway where it belongs.
A. It's needed on Bway. It duplicates the D if it's on 6th Ave, and there's also no good place to send it or turn it.
One more option is to merge Q and V.
Arti
A - it never belonged on 6th Avenue to start with.
"A"
Definitely Q should remain on Broadway. And D on 6th Avenue.
No reason to have two Brighton services on 6th Avenue.
Keeping the Q on Broadway would also keep it buddied up with the N and R in Manhattan, satisfying my esthetic principle that lettered lines should flock together as they do in the alphabet.
The Queens Blvd line is a travesty, with G, R and V on the same track...Columbus Circle is best, where you can board the A, B, C, D.
Suggestion for the mythic 2nd ave line: local, X, express, Y.
With of course BLACK as the bullet color, provided you don't have R 142 and 143. Since the 2nd Avenue will be finished about 2075, though, who knows what subway design will be by then.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I Vote A to remain on Broadway
A- B'way Service
A- Broadway Service. 6th Ave has enough service and for too long
A) (Q) on Broadway.
B. Definitely B.
Why?
Let's put it this way: it's called a pipe dream that the Q would return to 6th Ave. Can't there be just a bit of dissention? I mean, I am more familiar with a 6th Ave Q than a Broadway Q. And as my handle name implies, I am not from New York.
-J!
Oh yeah, P.S. The last time I was in NY was 1996, and I at least used an orange 6th Ave Q about 100 times!
If you want a 6th avenue Q, what do you suggest taking its place on Broadway, which has more of a need for a second express than 6th avenue does for a 3rd.
Both "Q" should remain on Broadway. The Slant "Q" should be given another letter, perhaps "U" would be good. The "W" should revert to Short Line, Astoria to Whitehall and the "B" goes back to West End, via 6 Avenue.
wayne
Let me correct myself for the following oversight - when the Manhattan Bridge reopens, the "D" will be running through via 6th Avenue and therefore replace the Circle "Q"; so the Slant "Q" will be the only "Q" in town. It still needs to be on Broadway, and it should have some kind of weekend service.
wayne
Or instead of the weekend service, there's always the N... which should run express anyway.
Amen to that.
I have a feeling the W may be hanging around the West End line after 2004 as well. There has been a thread on this board about a rumor that the W may become 24/7 from Ditmars to Coney Island and that the N may become an OPTO shuttle service from Pacific (weekends) or 36th Street (nights) to CI. This would be due to extensive station reconstruction at Stillwell, which will require the W to be the only train able to use Stillwell. As far as I know, Stillwell Avenue reconstruction will last beyond 2004. If the B becomes the sole West End line in 2004, local stops along 4th Avenue and Broadway would have no late night service and the Astoria line would have no late night or weekend service. Therefore, the W may still be needed in 2004, and it would need to remain the primary West End line train.
Both the B and the W can serve the West End line, but you'd have to say goodbye to M running there. The B can operate to Bay Parkway via bridge and 6th Avenue weekdays and the W can run to Coney Island via tunnel and Broadway 24/7.
>>>>The Slant "Q" should be given another letter, perhaps "U" would be good.<<<<
True, its time that TA should assigned another letter such T or U to replace Diamond Q.
"True, its time that TA should assigned another letter such T or U to replace Diamond Q."
No point now that people are used to it. And in 2004, the (Q) and will become the D and Q (or vice versa).
T belongs to the West End, IMHO.
>>>>"No point now that people are used to it.<<<
Of course people are used to it. That because of the difference in the fleet. The Q Local uses R68 and Diamond Q uses the slants. But I still don't understand why TA didn't considering using different unuse letter for the Brighton Express at the beginning. Look this way, brooklyn rider also get use to W because it run on west end. And also because majority of them still treated this new route as B. Even though, letter route itself and its color are different. If TA uses T or U or whatever the heck it is to replace former Brighton Express Route at the beginning. Frankly I would treat that yellow T or U or whatever it is as a orange Q or Brighton Express. Its the destination that counts to avoid confusion, not the letter itself.
I've said this in 2 other postings:I think the M train should've gone to Coney Island via Brighton Local while the current Q that runs Brighton Local run express.But oh well thats how the TA is i guess.
If M were sent to Brighton Line to local. What route would u suggest for West End Line to replace M as weekdays service?
no line.I think the W can handle the West End line pretty well by itself.how do i know that? simple,many times ive stood at the first car of the M train looking outside from Bay Parkway to 9Av the first car has been empty and i see very few people on the platforms with exception of the kids coming out of school.
As a sheepshead bay native, i've grown fond of the Q train. No matter express or local, I would like to see it around. However, I wouldn't mind reverting to the M train as the brighton local until 2004. Then bring our D train back here. As for the W, it should remain in Brooklyn while the B stays where it is currently running.
Allen (allenranger2@yahoo.com)
A - Remain on Broadway. 6th Avenue does not need five lines running on it and it definitely doesn't need three expresses. The Q is back on Broadway where God intended it to be. Let's leave it there, shall we?
My vote, it is an original Broadway Line, let it stay there, and keep the V on 6th Ave. Have an extra express run on the Q into Queens, and operate express all the way into 179th St.
A is my choice.
This is pointless. The Q is a Broadway route and will remain so as long as the H tracks are operable. The 6th Ave Q was merely a 12 year long GO ...
Hey look at this ... a new Brighton Ballot :)
--Mark
The Q should definitely remain on Broadway. It's natural route is the Broadway Express.
I'll say the same thing everyone else has,Q on Broadway is the way it should be
Everyone except for one naysayer. It's been a near-unanimous vote.
yeah one person did vote for the Q to return to 6th ave.guess he liked it that way more than the rest of the us.although i admit,im gonna miss the Q on 6th ave and seeing all three lines:B/D/Q on the express track.but oh well.
I guess he like the color orange that Q use to wear.
The Times has an article on buildings near the WTC which also sustained damage. The vacant lot may be getting bigger.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/12/nyregion/12BUIL.html
The block occupied by St. Nick's is now 100% vacant. The fire station across from 130 liberty is gone. There is suggestion that the mold which has overtaken 130 Liberty may doom the building (this is something out of a sci-fi/horror comic book). It's possible the vacant lot will extend to Cedar St. The landmark 90 West St. building, just south of the St. Nick block across Cedar St. is also endangered.
There was an article in one of the papers a couple three days ago indicating FDNY was anxious to get back its fire station. Well, something temporary perhaps, but certainly, it would be wonderful if the memorial incorporated a working fire station.
The article documents much more. There's dioxin all over the Verizon building. It is suggested that it would be cheaper, faster, and perhaps better to demolish this Art Deco masterpiece than to restore it. Fiterman Hall, of CUNY, BMCC seems to be 30 West Broadway, across the street from 7WTC: what's left of it too may have to come down. So the vacant lot may also extend north to Barclay St.
Hopefully, these buildings will qualify for additional FEMA money. The insurers will pay a settlement, of course, and so the owners should be able to arrange the financing needed to restore them. A big question is how big the insurance payout to Verizon and CUNY will be.
For Verizon, the payout should be decent. For CUNY (BMCC), well, I wouldn't be suprised to hear a "GTH." This sounds cynical, but given that I've been at CCNY for the last 2.5-3 years, I can expect that our BMCC tenants may be up here for awhile.
If anyone else posted this, I am sorry. For the last 2 days, A derailed freight train has been sitting under the McDonald Ave. overpass in Borough Park. It is hard to tell how many cars are derailed but it looks like a few. This afternoon, There was a crane and 2 GP38-2's there. I assumed it would be gone by tonight but when I passed, There was still a string of cars there. I wonder how bad it is? Anyone else hear anything? I'm going to go down there tomorrow morning with my camera. If you go to the back of the ShopRite parking lot you can see everything.
-Mark W.
Thanks for the update, Mark.
I did see one of NY&A's SW's heading west at an odd hour 8:30 am, so I assume it was going to 'rescue' some of those cars.
BMTman
Those tracks there in very bad shape. I think those tracks were there since the early to mid 20th century. They need desperate help.
I remember passing over those tracks on the f train and seeing so much garbage and debris in those track I used to think those tracks weren't in service anymore. But one day I saw a locomotive with men in front removing the debris including tons of tires and some refrigerators.
The line was all cleaned up by the Spring of 2001, then NY & Atl invited the local residents to go for a ride down the line. That train included an old LIRR Coach, plus two cabooses, all painted green. They filled up the coach with folks & went to 65th Street & back to Midwood. One of the guests now works at the office of the Brooklyn Boro President.
Not too much has been done with the track, so they go slow even though they can now see where they are going.
Mr rt__:^)
Ahhhh you remind me of home. I'm away at college now, but Borough Park is still my neighborhood and I still take the shortcut through the Shoprite parking lot next to the tracks whenever I'm home and need the F train.
The summer after I graduated high school me and a friend actually climbed down into the tracks from the end of 19th avenue off of 50th street, and hiked all the way to the harbor. A lot of that stretch is very awesome and not covered in trash. North of New Utrecht Ave where the tracks turn parallel to the Sea Beach is a block-wide grass field....shrubs block the view of the Sea Beach tracks, and it's like being in your own little african rift valley...nothing but you, the savanna grasses, and the bugs (it was a very hot day). it goes on for a while under the open cut changes shape again and the 2 lines switch sides.
we ran across some interesting folks down there too....2 kids with spray paint, this one guy walking his dog, a man and a woman apparently on some sort of romantic date (the last two werent actually down in the tracks, they were sittign on some stairs on the side of the cut, halfway through bay ridge)...it was insanely interesting
something i forgot to mention....thoguh we constantly checked for trains coming, we didnt think that the tracks were used for freight anymore......apprently they still are?
Story about the E train hotel.
Peace,
ANDEE
I noticed a large number of such denizens even at noon! That was on my trip to the old WTC station to see it again.
Just last night, there was a "denizen" like that on a Euclid Av. bound "Cee" train....whoooooooo-weeeeeeeee, he smelled the whole car up!!!!!!!! And what's funny is that people were still in the car, and eventually the guy left at Utica Avenue (with me :( )
Stuart, RLine86Man
If the mentally ill and addicted really do prefer the trains to the shelters, perhaps they ought to retrofit a few trains of old redbirds with more comfortable benches and run them around at night. Much cheaper than welfare hotels, gets people with hygene problems off the regular trains, gets around neighborhood opposition to facilities for people in need, etc. It may be a bizzare idea, but it's a bizzare situation.
I just hope we don't go in the direction of the 80s (the 70s gasp) in terms of our subways. Homeless living in the subways create health hazards, make commuters feel uncomfortable, and give NYC a bag image.
If the PD doesn't keep them off, what will be next? Grafitti? Crime? We must have a zero tolerance policy for keeping our subways free of crime, free of vagrants,etc.
The music in the 80s was great, but NYC wasn't. Lets not go back to those horrible days! If we do I'll be in NYC alot less often, and so will the tourists. Once you start rolling back rules, before you know it problems get out of control.
peh peh peh, you wouldnt be saying that if you was homeless. As for PD effectivness, if Bloomy dont go the dinky way, it'll all be alright for you foaming railfans.
hahaha
Peace,
ANDEE
Good idea! Salvage the seating from the sea going birds and fashion bunk beds along the sides.
The gentle rocking, the continuious rhythm of the rail joints, and the poor ventilation of carbon complex gases should keep the occupants quite.
At sunrise the rolling sanctuary should end is all-night trek at 205th yard for coffee and.....
A New York Bed N Breakfast.
avid
And a gas mask for the T/O as well as OPTO mods (no C/R should be exposed to THAT!!!
What better use than "THE SCHOOL CAR" this will weed out the weak willed and non-team players!
If the US Special Forces can have HELL WEEK, then the TA Special Farces can have the Sleeper!
avid
I was half kidding when I suggested this, but maybe it makes sense. The City is broke, the Dept. of Homeless Services is being cut, and the homeless population is going up. What do to? For those who don't want shelters, outfit some old redbirds with cots instead of seats, and suddenly you have a low cost shelter. Move it around, and it isn't in anyone's neighborhood.
Pick up could be the old Worth Street IRT station. Any old bathrooms in their? Showers could be installed, "customers" could be asked to use them and relieve themselves ahead of time. The area around the station is not residential. It's near the police and courts.
Then it's non-stop from 11 pm to 6 am, with drop off in the same location. Women on one train, men on some others, families on a third. Separate trains with rules (ie. no drinking or drugs) and no rules (for the benefit of the homeless advocates). Cop on the train.
Cheaper than a homeless hotel. Better than having them sleep on regular trains. And to some of the homeless preferable, it seems, to the shelters.
Isn't that all we need...a slamming lawsuit cuz some wino thinks he got lung cancer from the asbestos insulation traces of the floor heaters. The best wino hotel would be carbodies from Engine Brakes crew..windowless/doorless shells. Would still offer shelter...with a nice breeze. Bathrooms are no problem...they could still do what they do to my running Redbirds. When stuffed with wino leavings, the whole carbody could be deep sixed like before.
For those who don't want shelters, outfit some old redbirds with cots instead of seats, and suddenly you have a low cost shelter. Move it around, and it isn't in anyone's neighborhood.
Pick up could be the old Worth Street IRT station. Any old bathrooms in their? Showers could be installed, "customers" could be asked to use them and relieve themselves ahead of time. The area around the station is not residential. It's near the police and courts.
Then it's non-stop from 11 pm to 6 am, with drop off in the same location. Women on one train, men on some others, families on a third. Separate trains with rules (ie. no drinking or drugs) and no rules (for the benefit of the homeless advocates). Cop on the train.
I can just imagine how popular that idea will be with the T/O's and C/R's assigned to the trains! And can you imagine what the trains will look and smell like after carrying full loads of skells for seven hours (shudder)???
The Bowery, come on, this has got to be a no-brainer.
Load up. Head downtown through Nassau St to Brooklyn, keep to Express tracks, slow roll. to Coney Island, through Stillwell and back via a different route, up Broadway to 60th st tunnel to the Ind connecter to Queens Blvd, to Jamaica yard, around the yard loop, back to QB and to manhattan Via 8th ave local track to W4th st, through the Christy St Connector to the Willie B. to Jamaica Center, throught the Station into the tunnel, reverse with the second onboard T/O , back to Bowery. Time check.
avid
There seems to be more homeless everywhere in the system. Noticed quite a few at Grand Central and Union Square and they were inside fare control, as well as a lady living on the J/M/Z platforms at Canal street.
More homeless than I've ever seen before. I hope this isn't a sign of other things to come.
NY has been doing pretty well well with the homeless during the last few years, or at least it hasn't been as noticable. I remember when Grand Central and Penn were almost lined with homeless, during the 80's.
It is a problem, however in every city. The city that I thought had one of the worst homeless problem was San Francisco. A few years back I was there, and on one ride on the Powell Street Cable Car
line, there seemed to be homeless in every doorway, especially at both the Market Street and Mason Terminals.
And I hear Bloomberg may trim the police force by 7% to meet the budget. It will be a big mistake, just watch the crime rate skyrocket.
I don't like the lax way the PD has been lately with the homeless. First the homeless, what is next?
The welfare kings and queens next. Those who don't want to work are after them.
That lady at CanaL St is an Enron victim! Sign of things to come!
avid
Anyone now about a book store in Manhattan that features railroad books and the like, please e-mail me with the address and name of this store
Thanks
You might want to try the "Red Caboose" located on 45 Street between 5 and 6 Aves, very good selection of books and the best quantity of rapid transit models in New York. Be advised though, that the owner of the store is a loon and I do mean LOON!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
>>>... want to try the "Red Caboose"...<<<
From what I've heard they do tend to be a TAD overpriced.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee is right about that, but I enjoy bringing in a group to just LOOK ... the Loon gets up set.
Mr rt__:^)
Yeah... I kinda thought the same many many years ago when he was still up on the thrid floor of the building across the street.
(Someone else had this store... but they musta went out of business, and so he moved in.
I guess that was the only way he could clean out the other shop, unless he still keeps it for a warehouse.
I hadn't seen subway stuf in it the last time I was there, which was a while, since I hadn't been down there since I found out he took it over. But then it is a long walk from North Dakota, and the IRT doesn't stop out here either.
Elias
<< Yeah... I kinda thought the same many many years ago when he was still up on the thrid floor of the building across the street.
(Someone else had this store... but they musta went out of business, and so he moved in. >>
You're thinking of the store across the street. They went out of business but in the last year or so, Manhattan Train & Hobby opened up in that location. Not as much inventory as the old store, let alone Red Caboose, but the inventory they have is laid out much better and the owners aren't nuts like Mr. Red Caboose.
I understand that they are releasing another edition of 'Evolution of the New York City Subway'. Will this edition feature new photos of the R-142's and R-142A's? Also, will it feature designs of the R-149 and R-151 new IRT cars for the Flushing line and the R-160A, a new 75 foot car to replace the R-44's?
MODEL RAILROAD EQUIPMENT CORP was located in the store one story down on the north side of the street [where i think red caboose is now]. it was there for many years with no immediate vicinity competition. good inventory but everything was at list price.
in the mid seventies, red caboose opened across the street, followed by another store run [probably not owned] by a model rr equip corp former employee. i then moved to atlanta in 1978 and am not familiar with the ensuing changes.
I have a nice looking O Gauge reefer produced by Kris Model Trains, that was apparently painted up as an advertising gimmick for MRREC. It is silver with black printing, and was apparently made in the late 1960's or early 1970's. It has been quite the conversation piece.
one of the neatest things about mreec was that they had many items on display in a manner that made it possible to really see them. the display format used by red caboose doesn't accomplish that.
I'm 99% sure our friend Larry Littlefield and his work are referenced in John Tierney's "The Big City" column on the front page of The Metro Section in today's (Tuesday, February 12) New York Times:
Our Children Are Losers? Ask Albany
This exerpt,
"It's a complicated racket, but you can see how it works by comparing New York's public spending with the rest of the country's, as Larry Littlefield started doing more than a decade ago, when he was a regional economist with the Department of City Planning. His latest calculations (available at a New York University Web site, http://urban.nyu.edu/research/littlefield/index.html) are his most precise answer yet to the great mystery of New York City: how can we spend so much and get so little back?"
sure sounds an awful lot like him.
Good luck, Larry.
Yep, it sounds like him. Now if the article had used the term "profiteering non-profits," we'd know for sure :-)
It will be interesting to see if the column sparks any letters to the editor either about Tierney and/or Larry's numbers. Hospital union boss Dennis Rivera usually doesn't let shots like that in the New York Times (of all places) go unanswered...
It certainly is our esteemed colleaguem whose paper at the Taun site is distressingly well documented.
The purpose of goverbment is to extort money from the productive workers and transfer it to the non-productive elites. (wjo of course "own" the gov't officials.
According to yesterday's Rocky Mountain News, here is the service pattern effective April 5, when the Central Platte Valley Spur is slated to open.
D-Green line (this is the original route): Mineral to 30th Ave. (all times); additional service from Mineral to 18th St. peak hours.
C-Orange line: Union Station to Mineral peak hours only; all other times between Union Station and I-25/Broadway. Right now there simply aren't enough cars to run these trains all the way to Mineral at all times. This may change once the 12-car order placed in December of 2000 is delivered.
Sports Shuttle: Not discussed, although if I had to make an educated guess, I would say it will run between Union Station and 18th St. before and after sporting events at any of the sporting venues. I would be very surprised if they were to put it on maps.
I will be on hand when the new spur opens and will pick up some maps. There was no mention in the paper of the I-25/Broadway-to-18th St. short line pattern in use now; I suspect it may be discontinued in favor of the new C-Orange route. So far three of the six LRVs ordered for CPV Spur service have been delivered. The other three should be on hand in time for the opening, and the additional 12 cars ordered in December of 2000 are slated to be delivered by October.
The article also says two-car trains would be the norm, with a third car added when needed. Three-car trains have been used on the peak hour Mineral-18th St. service ever since the Southwest Corridor opened.
As an aside, there was an article the other day which referred to a rerouting of the D/Green line at the Colorado Convention Center. This facility is slated to be expanded onto the site formerly occupied by Currigan Exhibition Hall, currently being demolished. It would involve building over Stout St., which is where the D/Green line currently runs. The line is projected to run right through the expanded Convention Center, and supposedly one or both tracks would be realigned. We'll see what happens. Interestingly enough, our LRVs have "Colo. Convention Center" destination signs on their roller curtains, but AFAIK have never used them. Undoubtedly, new curtains will be installed before April 5 with C and D route signs as well as colors. You'll hear about it here first, and I will incorporate all of this into my article on Denver's light rail (no, I haven't abandoned it).
A buddy of mine was severly delayed this morning on his inbound from Rowayton with massive delays following.
Does anyone know what happened? There's a rumor of a passenger being hit. Anyone knw anything?
Are there is any plans to remove unused cabs on r62 and r68's when they are overhauled.
This would increase capacity on the 7 line
The 62's and 68's will NOT be undergoing a GOH like their older counterparts. The GOH's for the older cars were due to something that is called (and it gives EVERYONE on here a shudder when it's mentioned) "deferred maintenance." *shudders*
Stuart, RLine86Man
The unused cabs will not likely ever be removed. The cost is just too prohibitive.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, you have breaker panels, etc. that would have to be moved.
And the handbrakes, which are next to the seat in the corner by the door (at least in the 68's, and I would assume the 62's). that would be the hardest thing to move. I wonder if they could put a box over it we would open with the vapor key (like the coupler adapter under the passenger seats of the 143).
The handbrakes are in the #1 end/transverse cabs and would not be affected. In any event, the #2 end cabs will NOT be removed.
Oh, that's right. But I was thinking of the removal of the unused #1 cabs also (in the middle of the 4 car units). This would free up more space.
Too bad they don't do major overhauls anymore. Since these were built as single cars, and have windows on each end, and new cars all have windows on the blind ends to see from car to car, they could really make these cars like the new ones.
Sorry! I misunderstood your response. Perhaps this will clarify the issue for you. Unfortunately, the bulkhead wall carries most of the high and low voltage wiring for the car. Since the door operators are wall-mounted, there is little room to re-locate the hundreds of wires that would require moving. More importantly, however, is what would be gained. If you use the R-46 as an example, the 'A' car (with a similar sized cab) seats 70 people while the 'B' car (without a cab) seats 76 people. A gain of 6 seats would hardly justify the expense of that major modification.
Of course it isn't just six seats you're gaining - it's also standing room for what, another four or five people - so a net gain of nearly a dozen passengers at crush, er, rush hour...
But I agree with you.
How are the door controlers handled on the R46's
Plus wont room for the door controlers be freed up once the motorman control equiptment is removes
In addition the physical door switcher are not needed anymore
The cab removal will be especially helpful on the r62 a on the 7
Could they remove the rollsign housing at the "blind" ends of the R62's and 68's and create a regular window there? People could be able to see better into the other cars (although not as well as in the new cars).
If you did that' you'd only be able to look into the cab of the adjacent car.
BTW Dude, do you plan to join up with Bob, Steve and me when we hit New York next October? Sure hope so. We plan to meet a half-dozen other railfanners and take the city by storm.
October is a long way off but as of now, I'd really enjoy that.
Well get ready to saddle up. I want the Dude there to cover my ass when some of the Brighton guys get carried away. BTW, do you have any pull in the Bronx? Seems I've got a few of the natives up there a little ticked off because I popped off a little about the mainland borough some time back. But plan of it. It will be great to touch base with you in person. And give my regards to your pal who is the director of the N line. Tell him my emotions are with him all the way.
Uh, Fred, Steve is a Brighton man, too.
There's always been talk that maybe in another 10 years the
R62-68 fleet would receive a major overhaul to make them compatible
with the R142/143/160 etc. technology. Within the scope of that
kind of expense per car (changing out just about every electrical
and mechanical component), a little reconfiguration of some wiring
ducts could happen. But short of that, forget it! As we know,
the R142 etc. were designed from the start with through visibility
as a requirement, thus the LV and HV circuit breaker panels were
placed in the appropriate locations.
Also, to throw in some historical context, both the IRT and BMT
increased seating capacity by having their corner cabs
convertible to passenger space when not being used by crew.
Of course, security concerns today would preclude that.
I don't know about the BMT, but the IRT cabs (on the Lo-V's for example) were created from the vestabule door area. The T/O opened the front panel that concealed the controls, and the rear panel, and the two made a cab door. You didn't gain any seats, just another entryway.
I also recall that the other side, opposite the cab, had the electrical panel. I saw it opened one day, with knife switches, pull fuses, and exposed wiring connectors. Must have been rather nerve wracking to operate, especially in wet weather.
That's right, the motorman's cab on a Lo-V is part of the
loading vestibule. The electrical cabinet was locked with a
cab door key so passengers could not open it casually.
Exposed blade knife switches....definitely not OSHA approved.
Removing cabs is a very expensive proposition. It also involves relocating equipment etc. The cars currently undergo an SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System) rather than GOHs. The GOHs are a thing of the past. The parts are replaced before failure and the systems are maintained per a schedule to prevent abnormal wear and tear.
How exactly does your response address my historical note
about Lo-V cab configuration? Follow the thread back.
I doubt the Lo-Vs are going to undergo SMS or GOH.
If you use the R-46 as an example, the 'A' car (with a similar sized cab) seats 70 people while the 'B' car (without a cab) seats 76 people. A gain of 6 seats would hardly justify the expense of that major modification.
Each cab on the Div A takes up 2 seats. Removing superfluous cabs would net an additional 4 seats per car. This would increase the seating capacity from 44 to 48 and bring the seating capacity up to the LV standards of nearly a century ago. It would not replicate the LV's superior internal passenger flow and reduced loading time for the same load levels, however.
In rough numbers this is a 10% increase. That is hardly insignificant. It would be equivalent of bringing back 660 ft long cars on the IND or 11 car length on the IRT. It's the difference between 30 tph and 33 tph.
A gain of 6 seats would hardly justify the expense of that major modification.
It would make the 2200 Div A cars now required for rush hour duty the equivalent of 2400 cars. These extra 200 cars would cost about $400 million at current rates. If the cost of such modifications is in the $200K range per car, then there is cost justification for such a modification.
It does not add 10% total capacity to the train so those numbers are misleading.
Not everyone gets a seat on the subway.
Aren't the older train seats less generous, too. Everyone is fat now seat space is lost to wider riders.
Why doesn't the MTA buy articulated cars anymore. since all the new cars are married into sets of 4-5 cars wouldnt articulated cars make more sense. I rode some of the new articualted trains in paris over the summer and they were great
By 2 seats? Is it really worth it?
My favorite light rail system is the St. Louis MetroLink. One of the things I really like about it is that its underground portion is an old freight tunnel, whose old masonry is still visible and has been incorporated into the design of the modern stations.
So my question is, given that there are big expansion plans for this system, are there any more freight tunnels underneath St. Louis that could be exploited by MetroLink? It's really a hypothetical question since I don't live in St. Louis, and since whatever tunnels are there may be located far from any possible transit corridors.
Mark
I Link the MetroLink also, especiaaly the part next near Union Station where you go by the old Conrail Yards. Also where else in this country can you fly into a city, take a train to a Casino gamble, and then fly on
There is a elevated track used by freight trains that parallels the Mississippi River in the city, and goes briefly underground near the Arch.
<< are there any more freight tunnels underneath St. Louis that could be exploited by MetroLink? >>
No. North-South expansion plans to run ML through Clayton (the St. Louis County seat) ended up as a subway. BiState proposed running on the surface through Clayton, then north from there along existing private ROW. There would have been a surface stop (like in Boston) directly in the heart of Clayton and doing so would have generated quite a bit of white-collar traffic between downtown St. Louis city and Clayton as professionals traveled between the two CBDs. People living in Clayton and working in the city would also have the opportunity to avoid driving and take ML - many of the condos and some homes in Clayton are no more than a 10 minute walk from the proposed stop.
NIMBYs killed that fast, though. (Trains running in the streets?! How noisy and unsafe!) [Never mind the fact that streetcars ran on the same streets until the 1950s]. Now the plans are to run underground through Clayton with a station too far away to walk to the courts, county administrative offices, office buildings, etc. Once again, the vocal and wealthy few have turned what would have been a line heavily used by businesspeople into a line that will see relatively little white-colar use.
So is it the 1 or the A? Distance, time, and # of stations? Anyone know for sure?
Looking at MTA schedules for weekday mid-day, looks like A to Far Rockaway is 90 minutes while the 1 is 85 minutes. The F is 89 minutes. But the 2 is 94 minutes!
The 2 actually stops at 60 stations, while the 1 stops at 57 stations. The night-time A (all local) also stops at 57 stations. The F goes through 54 stations but I don't think it ever stops at the Queens local stops.
So it looks like the 2 wins, while pre-9/11 it was the A, unless you count stations passed through but not stopped at, in which case it was the 2.
How much is that in miles?
Mark
Now you're asking a hard question, since it isn't obvious from the published schedules.
My guess is the A is actually longest in miles; it's about 12 mi from 207th to Bway Nassau (since 207th to Houston is 10.35 mi) and then probably 13 or 14 mi from there to Far Rockaway.
Mark: IRT #1 242-New Lots 22.65 miles
IRT #2 241-Flatbush 25.56 miles
IRT #2 241-New Lots 26.78 miles
IND A 207-Far Rockaway 32.39 miles
Larry,RedbirdR33
The A still has to win by the greatest distance, and obviously that is true and would have the most stations if you were to "add stations" in the long stretches w/o stations.
Yes the No.2 Line takes the cake. The SR guys are getting warn out on that line.
"Looking at MTA schedules for weekday mid-day, looks like A to Far Rockaway is 90 minutes while the 1 is 85 minutes. The F is 89 minutes. But the 2 is 94 minutes!"
It's also interesting to consider the overnight local A -- which takes 105 minutes end-to-end.
I also think that the A covers over 30 miles, right?
Peace,
ANDEE
I also think that the A covers over 30 miles, right?
32 miles from 207 to F.R.
Station Wise: the 2 makes 60 stops.
Distance Wise: The A is 30-32 miles long from 207St to Far Rock.
2 people were shot at Dudley Station (Dorchester) last night on a MBTA rush-hour bus.
A few months ago, a youth was shot on a MBTA Red Line platform (also going through Dorchester, Ashmont Branch)
Just before christmas, people were raped at knifepoint after disembarking at Ashmont. MBTA provided a free drive-home shuttle service for everyone until the suspect was caught.
The question I'm about to ask is NOT "Is MBTA safe" -- it is. BUT... IS SOUTH BOSTON (Dorchester/Ashmont/Mattapan) SAFE??
How can people shoot on Rapid Transit? Rapid Transit is sacred property. If people have to shoot, they should shoot people in cars, or in the middle of nowhere.
Lexcie
The question I'm about to ask is NOT "Is MBTA safe" -- it is. BUT... IS SOUTH BOSTON (Dorchester/Ashmont/Mattapan) SAFE??
How can people shoot on Rapid Transit? Rapid Transit is sacred property. If people have to shoot, they should shoot people in cars, or in the middle of nowhere.
Transit property should be "sacred" ground, but unfortunately it isn't. There's nothing new about that situation, if that's any consolation.
I don't know much if anything about those areas of Boston so I can't comment on their safety or lack thereof.
Just a little quibble about what is a very serious matter. Dorchester, Ashmont, and Mattapan, while south of Boston, are not referred to as "South Boston." The area called "South Boston" is the peninsula where the new Ted Williams tunnel emerges from the airport, and is as much east as south (but it's not "East Boston", which is northeast).
Dorchester was unfortunately not a very safe area when I lived in Boston 25 years ago, and it sounds like it hasn't improved. I once had to go to Ashmont Station mid-day on a weekend and it wasn't inviting.
I won't comment on safety... but I will on geography.
Dorchester, Ashmont, and Mattapan are NOT in South Boston. South Boston is on the other side of the Fort Point Channel.
The people writing the docs for the proposed Indigo Line (South Sta. - Roxbury - Dorchester - Mattapan - Fairmount) seem to like to call their little commuter rail branch the "South Boston Line" because the old New York & New England Railroad called it that. Or perhaps I'm dreaming when I read that -- I can't find that reference now.
Some of this stuff is quite interesting -- take a look at http://www.indigoline.org/
Lexcie
I certainly back the proposal to transform the current Fairmount commuter rail branch to a light rail service. But it may be south of Boston, but it's NOT South Boston! That's where the Silver Line will be going.
Do you mean the BRT Silver line ?
Mr rt__:^)
That's the one, Mr. t. The one promised by the MBTA when they knocked down the Orange Line... that would provide "equivalent" service. The Washington St. corridor's first section will debut later this year, as the link on the prior message describes. The section to South Boston, and the middle part downtown, is in the fffffffffuture.
The Line was commonly known as the Midland, but it did share a station with the Old Colony named South Boston. It was .5 miles out of South Station which would put it around the current Cabot Shops on the Red Line. It was another .5 miles to the point where the lines split at South Bay Juction.
Right Dick from the BPD police report it was gang related and not a random act. Further follow up with the BPD the victim has a rap sheet over a mile long as well as the suspect. Steve
We had someone try to firebomb an IRT Lex train a few years back.
As someone who lived in Boaton for 5 year and went to college there, Mattapan, Dorchester, and Jamica Plain, accounted for about 65% of all homicides and realted crime... I wouldnt be in that neighborhood unless i ahd to be..
Does the now famous case of "The People of New York v. Fernandez", Queens Supreme, 1995 ring a bell????????????
OK I'll bite....'splain Lucy.
Peace,
ANDEE
The "LIRR Massacre" of 1995.......NUFF said!
(Mr. Fernandez, who defended himself at his trial....in case anyone remembers......)
Stuart, RLine86Man
UUUUMMMM Yea, but that guys name was FERGUSON, first name COLIN,
Peace,
ANDEE
I forgot....exqueasy me....still....you get the idea, right?
Stuart, RLine86Man
Not to mention that I'm 1/2 asleep from a LONG day of work.
Stuart, RLine86Man
You're forgiven.
Peace,
ANDEE
A man was shot on a Centro bus in Syracuse last week. Centro= Central New York Regional Transportation Authority
Lexcie,
The Ashmont area is not always the safest....every city has its run-down neighborhoods, and the Mattapan-Dorchester is certainly one of them. Today I stayed out of Boston due to the terror threat, but instead took care of my errands in the area you are mentioning...sometimes I wonder if I was safer going into Boston! -Nick
"sometimes I wonder if I was safer going into Boston!"
Unfortunately you would have been. Comapre murder rates in high crime areas (50 murders or more per 100,000 inhabitants per year) with murders due to terrorism (15 per 100,000 inhabitants of the NYC metro area in 2001, 1 per 100,000 inhabitants of the US in 2001).
A recent posting on airliners.net lamented the fact that a new HSR line in the Netherlands is projected to cost $20 billion for 100 miles. Let's see, that's $200 million per mile ... what are the latest cost estimates (which will surely prove far too low) for the Second Avenue subway? $1 billion per mile? And I'll bet our wooden-shod compatriots haven't been planning the HSR line for the past 75 years and sure as heck haven't paid for it twice already!
Of course, it isn't apples and oranges. 2nd Ave is entirely extremely dense urban. Holland still has a lot of rural areas so much of their line will only require condemning farmland, though obviously some of it may be highly urban too.
The cost to tunnel a subway line is an order of magnitude greater than the cost to construct it above ground.
General rules of thumb claim $1 billion per mile to tunnel a subway, versus $100 million per mile to build an elevated structure.
For the Dutch situation, $200 million per mile is actually quite costly for an at grade right of way, but this high cost is most likely due to the increased design for high speed travel.
As for the 75 years of planning, well, there's no excuse for that.
MATT-2AV
Nuke the Dutch...they'll get more Bombas. CI Peter
They're also converting their national system from 1.5kv DC to 25kv AC, because of the high traffic. Apparently, they've reached the limits of the 1.5 kv system.
Where is Holland?
It's near Belgium.
No, that's the Netherlands.
It's the same place.
Then who are the Dutch?
They're the people who founded the city that George and Jerry live in, but who didn't pass along their ability to build railroads inexpensively.
Mark
I am happy to announce the birth of a new little railfan. Daniel Albert was born yesterday. He makes me an uncle for the eighth time. He lives within walking distance of the Matawan/Aberdeen station on NJTs North Jersey Coast Line. He has some minor medical problems and I am asking all of you to pray for him. Thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
ANDEE - BE ASSURED THAT OUR PRAYERS ARE WITH DANIEL.
Our prayers are with him Andee.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Congrats all around and sympathies as well.
Congratulations and may the Good Lord heal him and give him a long and happy life.
Who knows. Maybe he'll see a 2nd Ave Line in his lifetime.
Who knows. Maybe he'll see a 2nd Ave Line in his lifetime.
Uh, he was talking about a newborn human baby, not a newly hatched Galapagos tortoise.
Thanks, I needed a laugh.
Peace,
ANDEE
Who knows. Maybe he'll see a 2nd Ave Line in his lifetime
Well, at least if he's lucky, maybe his grandchildren will see the 2 Ave subway.
Our thoughts are with him and all his family. May he gain in health and strength and, in the words of Spock, "live long and prosper".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>, "live long and prosper".<<<
Thanks, Chris. You don't know how much that means.
Peace,
ANDEE
You got it bud!!! Congrats and prayers..
I wish to thank all of you for the support and prayers I have received here and via E-mail. 2 day old Daniel is in surgery right now and will be out by 1400. I will keep you all posted. Again, thank you for all your support during this most difficult time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Here's hoping all goes well and there's no lingering effects. Mazeltov.
Of course Daniel should get well very soon, and as soon as he's old enough, make sure you take him on that Coast Line train in to New York so he can see the subways!
Hey,his parents will have him on that train before he is 6 months old. Like they did with his sister......Thanks for the sentiment. It's much appreciated.
Peace,
ANDEE
He has some minor medical problems and I am asking all of you to pray for him.
Congratulations on becoming an Uncle again. Re: the previous statement, my prayers are with you, having been there / done that with my first child. If you need to talk .....
--Mark
As a final note to all of this. Daniel came through his surgery "like a champ" the next ten days will tell. Thanks, again all, for your support.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good to hear.
Keep us all posted. The world needs us foamers.....
That's wonderful news, Andee - we've all been pulling for him!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Andee: MY best wishes and prayers for you and your little nephew.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This is OT to transit, but not to this board, or almost anything else we do on the Internet. It seems British Telecom has just decided, looking over its old patents, that it owns the patents to hyperlinks. And ... they are going to court to prove it!
So this could mean that every time we click on a hyperlink (or more likely, each time a webmaster puts a hyperlink on a page) we will have to chip in some pounds and pence to buy the dudes at British Telecom some bubble and squeak!
This is most scary thing since someone started the rumor that Bill Gates had bought all righst to the letter "e" and that, unl*ss w* want to pay rolayti*s *v*ry time w* us* a c*rtain l*tt*r, w* b*tt*r find a substitut*.
Read about here.
Or, on second thought, maybe you better not click, it could cost you money. ;-)
No, I haven't heard about Bill Gates and the letter e, but he has already patented the binary numbers 0 and 1.
Microsoft Patents Ones, Zeroes
Ah it seems the tide is turning now, I was talking to 2 line riders and most of them are getting ready to send letter to the MTA to offer a full 2 bronx thru express. Trains would go from 241 to Gun Hill to 180 to 3rd Avenue 149 Street. This line would be one of the longer Express, going almost 5 miles in 4 stops. So it seems that alot of people would push for it since the 5 is express in manhtattan, the 2 is local everywhere. Anything to cut time would be appreciated, and the time would increase since no time would be waisted at the 180 Street crossover and things would go faster.
So would you all support a 2 bronx express right now that would run from 6 a.m. to noon to Manhattan and from 12:01 to 7:30 to the Bronx?
"a 2 bronx express right now that would run from 6 a.m. to noon to Manhattan and from 12:01 to 7:30 to the Bronx"
It's the beginning of a good idea. But it leaves some questions unanswered. For example - what runs local between 180 street and 241 street?
It would run similar to the 7 line, right now the odds are there would be a surplus of cars on the IRT, those additional cars can be used for the service, a 2 local and a 2 bronx thru express. Both versions of the 2 can run express past 180 Street.
Right now the 7 has 12 tph in mid-day while the 2 has 8 tph. If you make half the 2's expresses, you're down to very few trains at the local stations. Do people really want that?
Sounds more feasible in rush hour, though.
It's the beginning of a good idea. But it leaves some questions unanswered. For example - what runs local between 180 street and 241 street?
Won't it be the (5) ;) that is, when the 2nd Av IND is connected to the Dyre Line. I might still be alive then. I doubt it.
The TA dismantled the old Westchester & Boston viaduct south of East 177th Street. Sounds like a step in the wrong direction for running 2nd Avenue trains to Dyre.
The TA dismantled the old Westchester & Boston viaduct south of East 177th Street.
Well, they'll just have to put it back up! How far south was the line on viaduct anyway?
Is the ROW still intact? Did it ever cross into Manhattan?
"Is the ROW still intact?"
It's part of what's now the Amtrak route from Pelham to Hellgate (i.e., Boston to NY Penn). Only a short connector (the viaduct previously mentioned) is gone. Amtrak trains run about 1/4 mi east of the E 180th St subway station.
"Did it ever cross into Manhattan?"
No. It went down to the E 130s in the South Bronx. That's why they went out of business. Nobody wanted to first take a subway to the Bronx before getting on the railroad to the suburbs.
The ROW is not intact, and thanks to the new Coliseum Bus Depot that's going up in the area, it will stay cutoff where it is right now at 177th St near I-895. Any plans to link the Dyre line into any new subway will have to entail diverging the line from its route in and around the Unionport yard. Any attempts for new rapid transit development around the old viaduct is bound to derail due to the residences in the area, the traffic meltdown that it will create during construction, and the conflict it will create with MaBSTOA.
This line has always interested me. What was the ROW north of Dyre Avenue? Is there any evidence of it north of there now?
Not much. There's some more information right here on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I grew up in New Rochelle in the 50s the ROW was still very evident. But gradually it's been filled in with buildings. In one place in far northern New Rochelle/Scarsdale they used the ROW to build a bypass road.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
It will never happen.
The #5 riders will come out strongly against that as they did a couple of times already. And they have the local politiocians on their side as well.
What's the difference if they ride a 2 or a 5. So cross the platform to the express. Why should everyone suffer. Every new service can't benefit everyone.
There's a reason why they did. Rather than make all 5's local and all 2's express, they decided to make all 2's and 5's to/from 238th Street express, leaving only the 5's to/from Dyre Avenue to make the stops between East 180th and 3rd Avenue. Those south Bronx stations got a big service cut during rush hours. That's why it failed.
If the TA runs all 2's express and ALL 5's (238th AND Dyre), it will not be a problem. But the TA had to be cute and run all service from White Plains Road express, regardless of it being a 2 or a 5. Don't do that this time around, and it will work.
thats a good idea
You should post this on straphangers.org
Funny you should mention this. On some of the R142, there is destination sign reading:
2: To Wakefield-241
7AV Express
Bronx Thru Express
This is in the north direction only.
Funny you should mention this...
An R-142 Test Train, Cars 6746-6755 on a northbound simulation run, were displaying signage for East 180th St, this past Friday. It was the first time I had ever seen the signage displayed for anything other than Dyre and 241 St.
-Stef
It must have been a simulation for the 5 line. E.180St is part of the destination readings for the 5 line. BTW, I think thats another thing that needs to be improve on the R142s, the destinations and annoucemnents. Right now, the 2 line can only display Flatbush and 241St. Hopefully when the major problems are worked out, then they can work on the readings.
Incorrect! The test train made a stop at 59th St-Columbus Circle. It was in fact a #2. Sorry buddy....
-Stef
P.S. I saw it the same day you came past me on the 1.
-Stef
I definitely would support a Bronx Thru Express run on the 2!
Not a good idea. Trains would run empty on White Plains Road (see Astoria express) and the problem it hopes to solve will solve itself this fall when the Greenwich St. line reopens, allowing the 2 to run express in Manhattan. People will simply have to tough it out until then.
However, I wholeheartedly support the idea of increasing the hours the Bronx Thru express #5 runs, from rush hours only to all day long (6 Am to 12 Pm to Manhattan, 1 Pm to 7 Pm from Manhattan).
the problem it hopes to solve will solve itself this fall when the Greenwich St. line reopens
What is the Greenwich St line?
The 1/9 from Chambers to South Ferry.
Greenwich Street line reporting.
How would trains run empty on White Plains Road? 2 trains would make all stops from East 241st Street to East 180th Street and then run express from East 180th to 3rd Avenue. Tell me how there would be empty 2 trains during rush hours.
I was under the impression that he proposed running the #2 express from 241 St. south, not E180th.
Good point, Chris... It suggests a 241-GunHill-E180
trot... and makes invisible the (otherwise local)
stops such as 238, 225, Pelham Pkwy etc etc...
Even if the uptown trains were to run local,
everyone'd still hafta ride up to a northern
station just to catch a sb train... and
we all know THAT plan hasn't gained Nobel Prize.
everyone'd still hafta ride up to a northern
station just to catch a sb train...
No they wouldn't. A peak direction express is as well as, not instead of, a local.
Whether it be the 2 or the 5, I would support a True Bronx Thru Exp. When ever I posted this topic with the 5, I was told that E241st couldn't handle turning an Exp and a local around. My suggestion is how much would it cost to redo E. 241st station. I mean total take it down, re-build it with Concrete instead of Steel and make a three track station out of it? What about 1 to 2million dollars?
If they can complete this project or find the funds to do this, Having an express on the White Plains Rd, would be great. The 5 can run express from E.180th to 3rd Ave, and the 2 run express from E241st to 3rd Avenue. The Dyre Ave 5 will run local from 3rd Ave to Dyre.
I say they should do this to all Bronx trains.. The 4 train at Woodlawn, the 6 train at Pelham Bay Park. You can leave the Dyre Ave station and the Van Courtland Park station as is.
Frank D
E241st couldn't handle turning an Exp and a local around.
IIRC E241 looks and works similarly
as does Times Square on 7..
and IIRC Times Square on the 7 has NO trouble
shipping out Local trains-turned-Expresses
(and vice versa)..
TSQ has two tracks feeding a two track terminal; 241 has three tracks feeding a two track terminal.
So why not redo the station as I proposed? The station could be redone in 6 months, if the funds are found and approved. Its a shame there are no-revenue express tracks in the Subway that can be of great use.
Frank D
On Saturday afternoon, my dad and I went railfanning the NYC Subway.
We left Metuchen on an inbound 4:48p train to NYP, among were the highlights:
1) A - from 34 St. to 207 St.
2) 1 - from 42nd St. to 242 St.(took A back)
3) 4 - from 14 St. to Woodlawn. (took 1 back & L one stop to Union Sq.)
Experiences and facts observed were:
1) Enjoyed ride to NY, not knowing that the incident on the NEC happened just 5 minutes after we arrived.
2) Enjoyed a great rear view from an R38 A to 207 St. Boarded car #4016.
3) First time for me. I observed the speedometer in the last car. We reached 37mph through 72nd St, but generally, we were going 27-30mph throughout the CPW stretch.
4) A lump of R38's at one time. The train back waiting was also a R38. Boarded car #4046 to Columbus Circle, to find out that 1 and 2 trains were running express due to TSQ construction.
5) Took the same train we took to 207 St. to TSQ and rode R62A #1998 to 242nd St.
6) Observed that the mosaic tiles for station names on 191 St. on the 1, and 138 St. (I think) on the 4 were exactly covered with the modern, black with white, courier lettering signs. Only the first and the last mosaic tablets were untouched.
7) Storage yard with 8 or 9 tracks (a guess) at 137th St. - City College.
8) Chalkboard structures at 238 ST. and a couple of other stations there on the 1.
9) 100% of the #2 trains I saw were R142.
10) 1 train with lead car #1925 (I rode #1998 also) had a #3 strip map
11) Observed the back rollsign of a Redbird #5 n/b at 14 St. which stated:
"5 East 180 St."
A R142A #6 train left at the same time this train did.
12) Came back at Lexington Av. - 59 St. for the N or R to 34 St. back home. An R40 Slant N comes and the front sign looks like a brown N.
Sorry I don't recall the #'s. but at best I think it was 44--.
13) We ate dinner at 32nd St. and walked to Penn Sta., not knowing that anything was wrong. We saw on the message board that "AMTRAK AND NJT TRAINS SUBJECT TO DELAY DUE TO WIRES DOWN WEST OF NEWARK".
Nothing much about the 11:41p train, but we were informed that the 12:37a Long Branch and the 12:42a NEC train were CANCELLED due to lack of inbound crew and equipment, which was most likely caused by the holdup of n/b trains at the affected area.
Some questions:
1) What kind of construction were they doing at 42nd St on the n/b local track on the 7th Av. Line? I saw a yellow sign pasted onto an I-beam stating 3 warnings about lead poisoning in the area.
2) Why are the mosaic tablets of 191 St. and 138 St. replaced with the modern black and white signs?
3) What is the storage yard at 137 St. City College for?
4) What are the bracket shaped chalkboard structures at 238 St. and that area for?
5) Was train with end car #1925 originally for a #3? Everything else was signed up as a #1.
About the "E 180 St." rollsign, did the T/A just forget to change it?
6) Could the glass of the front of the R40 Slant have stained enough to make the N look like a brown N?
7) What is used to change the rollsigns inside and outside of all trains which have manual rollsigns?
8) On the NEC, drilled through the bottom of the rocks I see a small green sign stick up between tracks that has a white "R" on it.
What is the significance of this?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
3) What is the storage yard at 137 St. City College for?
That was the orginal yard for the 1904 IRT subway. I think #3 trains are stored there
6) Could the glass of the front of the R40 Slant have stained enough to make the N look like a brown N?
People here have mentioned a rogue brown-like N sign (with pictures) haunting the subway, maybe you were a lucky one to have seen it.
7) What is used to change the rollsigns inside and outside of all trains which have manual rollsigns?
Hex keys
That yard must have been the orignal yard for the 1904 subway, there didn't seem like anyother place to store trains. But 1 trains are all that is parked there, before the 9/11 switches, they did store a few 3's, but due to 240 st yard getting R-62a's from the 6 line, the needed the space to store 1's. Now that there are fewer 3's due to short rout, there is no need to store 3's there.
Car 1925 is from the No.3 Line
Last weekend E 180 was the Last stop on the No.5 Line.
>>1) Why are the mosaic tablets of 191 St. and 138 St. replaced with the modern black and white signs? <<
I could not be exactly sure but I will venture a guess or two.
a) When theses stations were rehabilitated the tablets were in such bad shape that it was decided to cover them.
b) When these stations were rehabbed the intent was on "modernization" (not like today's thinking) and the tablets were covered on purpose.
>>3) What is the storage yard at 137 St. City College for? <<
Until the 1990's the #1 had two terminals 137th St and 242nd St. This is similar in intent to the #6 going to Parkchester and Pelham Bay. The trains that were stored here started and ended at 137th.
You will still find some trains stored here on occasion.
>>6) Could the glass of the front of the R40 Slant have stained enough to make the N look like a brown N? <<
This has been mentioned a number of times on here but I can't recall if anyone ever got it right.
When the TA first introduced line colors in 1967 each route had it's own color (as opposed to each line being a color as it is today).
Originally the N was TAN not brown (but over the years of exposure it could have faded and darkened). It is very possible that the roll sign is an old one w/o the new colors spliced in or the new colors were spliced in and the T/O is too lazy to roll through the sign until the yellow N appears.
Originally the N was TAN not brown (but over the years of exposure it could have faded and darkened). It is very possible that the roll sign is an old one w/o the new colors spliced in or the new colors were spliced in and the T/O is too lazy to roll through the sign until the yellow N appears.
---------
I've seen the so-called "brown N" sign, and it really does look like tan, not brown. I think that explanation makes the most sense.
137 is exactly that a storage yard for the 1 trains. Since 9/19 cars from the 3 line has been assigned to the 1 line for the extended service to New Lots. Last week there was a GO in effect that had the 5 line terminating at E. 180St. Times Square as well as 72St and Atlantic/Pacific St are undergoing extensive, never ending rehabs.
Today it is part two of Cost Effective Measures.
Over the years, technology has really decimated the ranks of the Clerical staff at most railroads. Many chores once done manually are now performed using computers. As computers made significant inroads, the human factor was gradually reduced. At first, some positions were combined. Later, they were eliminated completely.
As the positions were abolished, some of the work was then delegated over to other crafts. A prime example is PICLing. As I have mentioned in the past, PICL is the acronym for Perpetual Inventory and Car Location, and is pronounced pickle. There used to be clerks to handle this work. The Yardmaster or Trainmaster would talk to the PICL clerk and inform them of how to move the cars electronically in the computer. In some locations, the Conductors of particular assignments would speak directly to the PICL clerk giving him or her all the details of their switching moves. While this method may sound redundant, it was actually far more effective and efficient than the method we currently use.
Today, at many locations on numerous railroads the Yardmasters do the PICLing themselves in addition to all their other chores. This now requires them to dedicate time to this task alone, taking them away from other duties. At most railroads today, the Yardmaster is already extremely busy. They are dealing with numerous yard jobs, in and outbound trains, dealing with other railroads, handling the normal thousand or so phone calls, dealing with officials and all their pet projects and about half a million other duties and obligations all at the same time. As a result of all this chaos sometimes, actually oftentimes, the PICLing gets screwed up and cars are improperly placed in the computer.
It also means the Yardmaster is now even harder to get a hold of on the radio or telephone. As a result of this lack of communication, we get to sit and wait for a response, sometimes for an excessive period of time. We are not the only job that gets to wait either. The longer we all sit awaiting words from the man so high in the sky, the less work that gets done. This destroys the very productivity the company is striving to achieve.
Screwed up PICLing can really have quite the backlash effect. I cannot begin to count how many times we have had incorrect track and train lists over the years since this cost-effective measure was implemented. While it may not seem to be relevant, here are some of the ramifications. A crew pulls a track out to switch. Right off the bat, the track list does not coincide with what is rolling past them. There are cars out of place, cars missing and/or extra cars often referred to as "strangers" in the track. Being that switching can be like a chess game where both Conductor and Yardmaster are planing several moves ahead, an incorrect list can quickly throw a wrench to their plans.
For a crew departing with a train, this problem can wreak havoc in multiple ways as well. According to Federal requirements, we have to have a proper list of our train indicating the location of any and all hazardous materials (HAZMAT) in our train. On more than one occasion over the years, we have discovered HAZMAT cars in our trains not shown on the list. There is specific documentation that must accompany all HAZMAT shipments. Certain types or amounts of HAZMAT require the train to be operated at a lower speed. There are other requirements involving the placement and handling of HAZMAT as well.
In the event of a derailment or other situation, the required paperwork would have to be provided to the emergency response personnel reporting to the scene. They need this information so as to know exactly what materials they are dealing with. This is extremely important in the event of a HAZMAT release or fire.
As I began to work on this part of the article, I had to break from it to go to work. Ironically it would happen, this night we wound up with seven extra cars in our train not on the list. This little trinket of information was learned when we passed the Manteno defect detector and it gave us an axle count reading 28 more axles than our paperwork showed. We had no clue as to what these strangers were or where they were located in our train. After several unsuccessful attempts to contact the either the clerk at Markham or Champaign, we contacted Chicago South (now called Desk Two by some) Dispatcher John Childs and explained our dilemma to him. He was able to use Alexander Graham Bell’s invention to make contact and get a new set of paperwork generated. We had to stop at the Kankakee Yard Office to pick it up. While the solution was simple, the ramifications were far broader.
In order to actually get the paperwork, I had to stop this 147 car train, Conductor Bill Haynes (I finally got my Billy back) had to run over and pull it all off the printer, come back out and board up allowing me to proceed. Sounds simple right? Let us look at what is actually involved here.
Instead of just reducing to 30 mph through Kankakee, I now had to stop. This requires what is referred to as taking all the energy out of the train. All forward motion ceased. While waiting the couple of minutes it took Billy to make the run in and out, I had two road crossings blocked. Once back on board, I now have to restart the train. This is also referred to as putting energy back into the train. Some thirteen plus thousand tons of train now have to be restarted from a dead stop. About half the train is sitting on a descending grade. A portion of it is in a little rise while the rest is in another descending grade. I have been doing this Engineer thing for lots and lots of years and normally have no problem getting a train started under these conditions and didn’t this day either. However on occasion, a few Engineers do and this can lead to problems and delays.
Now to stop and start this train requires using a great deal of fuel that otherwise would have been used for keeping the train moving and accelerating once I cleared the speed restriction through Kankakee. An unnecessary delay and wasted fuel because a few bucks were being saved elsewhere.
This paperwork problem is by no means isolated to just us. I hear of it from others on other railroads. I also hear it on the radio as well.
Most railroads have consolidated their clerical and customer service functions into a centralized location. This allows for a reduction of forces, as fewer clerical employees are required to perform more work. What happens here though is a two-fold problem. Those that take the positions offered are forced to relocate to this new and normally far away location. Collective bargaining agreements or special agreements forged to cover such situations require the carrier offer several options for relocation expenses.
One plan offered by the MoPac (in post UP merger days) when they began to relocate and consolidate was the option of the company purchasing your home and paying you $5000 for relocation expenses. Two appraisal companies were called and each offered a fair market appraisal of your home. The two were averaged out and this average is what the company offered for the home. If you felt it was not a fair price, a third appraiser was called in and a deal worked from there.
The second option was for the relocating employee to sell their home themselves, normally through a real estate firm. This provided for $11,000 in relocation expenses instead. In either case, the money received was supposed to be non-taxable. However, several clerks who relocated told me of being hit with all taxes, federal, state and retirement when they received their relocation expense checks. A big battle was the result and I never did hear the final outcome.
MoPac consolidated all the Eastern District Callers into one location in North Little Rock, AR in 1985. They introduced the Crew Management System when they relocated the callers. This was supposed to provide a more efficient calling system and allow them to reduce the total number of callers needed. No advancement program is complete without the always unpopular, reduction of forces. The system had some bugs and glitches when it was placed into service. It was not a new system as CMS had been in use on other parts of the system for several years. I heard plenty of horror stories about it from folks with whom I was acquainted on other parts of the system.
Here is an example of a problem that happened to many. It is the wee hours of the morning. The phone rings. When you are on a regular or temporary assignment the phone rings at this hour of the morning, it is either bad news from the railroad or tragic news about a friend or loved one.
As I growled out some version of the word "hello", a voice at the other end of which I did not recognize said "Mr. Santucky?" Oh great, a new caller that doesn’t know any of us. "That’s San-tew-chee."
"Oh, okay, well, you bin bumped."
Great, no regular job, probably three days of work this week if I’m lucky. "Well, what can I hold?"
"Well, I reckon I haven’t got the time to check as I have all these trains and people to call first. If you want, you can go over to the yard and look in the computer there to see what you can hold."
"WHAT!" My ass I’m getting out of bed to drive seventeen or so miles into Illinois to look at some computer screen to see what I can hold. This brought me into the world of the fully awake now. Quick, think. Let’s see, this happened to Russ a couple of days ago, what did he tell me he did? Oh ya, so here we go with this little scheme.
"Well, can I hold the 630 Dolton Local?"
"No."
"Can I hold the 759 City Run?"
"No."
Can I hold the 7 o’clock White House job?"
"The what?"
Oh, almost forgot, he has no clue of our slang for these jobs. "The 7 o’clock at Chicago Heights, on the CHTT?"
Oh, okay. Uh, no."
We went through this like the Litany of Saints during Benediction at Church. I was almost certain I couldn’t hold anything but wanted to be sure just in case. I would be really upset if I didn’t check and discovered I could’ve held even the worst job there.
This took about ten minutes. Ten minutes that he told me he didn’t have when he first called. Even though my attempts to mark onto something regular were futile, I at least learned this fact from the comfort of my home. I did not have to waste gasoline and time or lose any serious sleep in the process. It didn’t really matter though as just a few days later I was furloughed and now just an unemployed loser.
A few short years later UP in its infinite wisdom decided that all the Callers system wide needed to be at one centralized location, Omaha. Once again by doing a consolidation like this, still more Callers jobs can be eliminated. Many of these people that got relocated previously were given the opportunity to be relocated at company expense yet again. All those folks from places like Chicago and Dupo, IL who had already relocated once to North Little Rock, got to do it yet again. From what I heard, some of them opted not to go choosing a separation allowance instead. So what you had was quality and experience leaving the company. This meant new people would have to be brought in and trained to replace those who left. And for those who chose to relocate it also meant the company had to hire still more appraisal services, buy more houses and pay out more relocation money.
I am certain though a bean counter calculated a positive spin from this. A presentation was likely made of how they would rid themselves of long term employees with three to five weeks of vacations and lots of personal leave days.
And of course like the first wave of relocations, there were such issues as failed marriages as a result, something never even remotely considered by those making the decisions to centralize and relocate. And we know nobody calculates the effect unhappy employees have on smooth operations. I think it is a safe bet there is a tremendous impact. Maybe I can get a Government grant to study this issue.
Giving the Callers computer assisted calling allows for the reduction of the total amount of callers needed. The carriers install an update system of one type or another with the intent of giving you updates as to what is running, where your pool or turn stands or what your position is should you be on the extra board. Known vacancies are indicated. A line up of trains is also supposed to be part of this package too. In dealing with our voice response automated update system, the intent far more accurately describes the system than the actual information received.
It is not uncommon to listen to a line up of trains that includes road switchers that work around the yard, hear about trains that they have no real intention of running anytime soon and the omission of trains from the line up that you are hearing rumors about. Frequently, you get called for something that is not on the line up. For more thorough information (sometimes), it takes a call directly to the Caller. Being that they now handle larger territories, it may take several minutes to reach them. On occasion, it has taken almost an hour to get through. Once you contact them, they can do things like ask the Chief Dispatcher (or whatever title a particular carrier may chose to call them these days) to see what they are planning on running.
One of the rumors we have been hearing is the concept of the company offering home computer packages at discount rates. Word is they want to load it up with software to allow us to access the Call Board and make moves such as marking up using the computer. Sounds handy but it will likely lead to still more reductions of Callers. And again, how reliable will the information be? The system we use over the phone is based upon the information in the computer now.
When the Santa Fe relocated all their Train Dispatchers from regional locations into a central location in Schaumburg, IL, they lost years of experience, to the tune of some 1200 man-years. Many Dispatchers chose not to accept the transfers as a look at one of the more expensive suburbs of Chicago in which to reside probably scared some of them off. I was told by a Santa Fe official of how an additional moving allowance had to be offered to some employees. The disparity in housing prices had created quite the dilemma. It seems that what some folks were able to get for a sales price for their homes wasn’t much more than a decent down payment on a home around Schaumburg. If the higher priced locale didn’t do enough, the fact that dispatching districts were also to be increased by the use of a new dispatching system. After the new center opened with its new system, several Dispatchers walked off the job as it quickly became far too much for one person to handle even with the assistance of a computer.
Then a few years later, Santa Fe and Burlington Northern merged and all the folks at Schaumburg were given the opportunity to relocate again, this time to Fort Worth, TX. And once again, some experienced people didn’t go. BNSF had to resort to hiring off the streets to replace folks that opted out of the chance to yet again disrupt their lives exponentially.
And still again, some BNSF Dispatchers have been relocated. After plenty of time and money spent to prove centralizing doesn’t work, a decision was made to decentralize some dispatching districts and move them back to the region they came from. More money spent and very likely, talent lost.
Would this be akin to "What goes around comes around"?
One factor never calculated when decisions are made to relocate a large group of people is the total disruption of numerous lives. Not just the employees are affected with a job relocation. Spouses and children also take a beating in these situations. And if they have to relocate several times, all sorts of problems can develop. Emotional problems with children and spouses are biggies, not to mention marital problems and divorce.
Conrail relocated Train Dispatchers from South Suburban Chicago and a few other locations on the Dearborn Division up to Dearborn, Michigan. Again, some did not make the move. Others, including a few that I got to know did go but they didn’t stay. They either resigned from the company altogether, or opted back into another job such as Block Operator in a tower someplace. More valuable years of experience lost having to be replaced by new hires or those from other crafts bidding into the now vacant positions. These folks had to be trained from scratch costing more time and money. Again, what was saved?
CSX also lost people when they began to relocate Dispatchers and numerous other functions to Jacksonville, FL. And yes, they too went with the grand scheme to enlarge dispatching districts. In many cases, this plan failed on an equally grand scale. Not counting all the software problems with the new dispatching system installed, the longer districts that were computer assisted were far too large for most Dispatchers to handle in a safe and timely manner. Train delays began to mount rapidly as the Dispatchers were overloaded and could not keep up with the demand for their attention on some districts. Several dispatching desks had to have their territories reduced resulting in additional dispatching desks being created. The Dufford Center in Jacksonville (which has several rather unflattering nicknames) was not designed for so many additional workstations and some Dispatchers had to be separated from the rest of the group and placed into any open offices available.
A friend who retired from Operations Control in Jacksonville told of how CSX was having a hard time keeping even new hire Dispatchers to remain with the company. He joked of how it was getting so bad they had practically resorted to having people on the streets around the Dufford Center trying to recruit new hires from the pedestrian traffic passing the facility.
"Stick that up your computer."
The Chicago Terminal Dispatchers located at Barr Yard in South Suburban Riverdale, IL were supposed to move to Jacksonville at the end of 1995. Literally a couple of days before the big move was to take place it was cancelled. This really cost them again as some of the Dispatchers had already began their moving process by selling their Chicago area homes and putting money down on new homes in Florida. CSX had to buy out the contracts on such deals.
A new plan was hatched instead. Somewhere, a meeting was held in a conference room or maybe a bar room. (Just kidding folks. I must make this disclaimer so as not to get sued. But you know, considering the fact that railroaders and railroad officials have never been shy about drinking and discussing business over said drinks, maybe….) In any event, a decision was made to do a consolidation in Chicago. It was decided that if the CSX Chicago Dispatchers and the Belt Railway of Chicago Dispatchers were located in one centralized facility, they would work and play well together. It was also thought that if they did, the Indiana Harbor Belt Dispatchers might also want to join in and work and play here too.
Needless to say, this plan failed. I was told by several CSX officials of how the BRC and CSX Dispatchers were placed at practically at opposite ends of the building. They did not "rub elbows" as been hoped. Instead of milling around the water cooler discussing baseball scores and how to keep operations fluid, the only means of communication was by telephone. The exact words one CSX official used were "These guys don’t even acknowledge each other when passing in the hallway."
A new plan then emerged. CSX decided to create a Chicago Terminal Operations Command Center. Being that CSX became the senior partner of Conrail’s share of the IHB, they decided to build a facility that would house not only CSX and IHB Dispatchers, it would also allow for Dispatchers from other railroads to join in as well. While CSX and the IHB have very close ties owing to the fact that CSX operates so many trains across the IHB daily, this first step actually makes sense. It only took two tries though. Now as to whether or not any other railroads move Dispatchers into the facility built in South Suburban Calumet City remains to be seen.
As I have previously mentioned, many railroads have consolidated their Customer Service Centers into a centralized location. This allows for a reduction of forces as they once again, have even fewer people doing still more work. I have heard from several folks I know who are directly involved with using rail service. They tell of long waits while on hold awaiting "the next available representative" to assist them. I have heard stories of having to go through a variety of menus before getting the opportunity to request human intervention. Shippers are encouraged to use the on-line tracking instead of bothering some overworked human. Of course, on-line tracking does not answer many or all of the questions one might have.
Many of the railroads have also centralized most other clerical duties at one location. They come up with clever names for such operations. One that comes to mind is Norfolk Southern’s CYO, Consolidated Yard Operations. Train crews, Yardmasters and company officials now have to call to Atlanta where all the clerks have been relocated. No more having the clerk right there where you need them. This may have advantages as the clerks are more productive by having larger territories to handle keeping them busier. It certainly has disadvantages though. These are seniority-based jobs not necessarily allowing for the clerks from a particular region to be assigned to the jobs on their old territories. You now have people unfamiliar with your territory telling you what, where and how to perform industry work and other chores.
While spotting instructions on computer generated work orders are usually pretty clear; they are not always exact. In some cases, many changes have to be made from the original work orders generated. Not every piece of information is cut and dried. The modified or changed information has to be faxed to the far away clerk who may not have a clue as to how industries lay out and work. Much time can be wasted in the attempt to explain things to them. Again, I have heard plenty of horror stories.
Sometimes studies are made to determine if a yard can be closed, employees eliminated and work passed on to the remaining yards in the system. Conrail, after a so-called exhaustive study, determined they could close Enola Yard near Philadelphia as a major classification terminal. It was decided that passing the work to remaining facilities would easily work. Well, it didn’t. There were instant repercussions and traffic bogged down. Freight traffic took huge delays. Train crews went dead on the hours of service as other yards became congested and there was no room to yard more inbound trains. Outbound traffic was unable to be turned quick enough to clear the congestion. Customers were not happy. It took Norfolk Southern (after they took over this portion of Conrail) to determine the facility needed to be reopened for use as a key classification yard. Of course, all kinds of money had to be spent to get the yard back into shape for such duties.
I have mentioned single tracking problems numerous times in the past. Here are few more only they involve other railroads. Guilford rebuilt the yard at East Deerfield, MA. Some Design Engineer involved in the project determined that double main tracks along the south side of the yard were obsolete and only a single main track would be needed. Traffic levels were down on the regional and not as many trains would be operated through here. Of course, they never determined traffic other than the trains working at the yard would still be impacted. When a train stopped to do work at East Deerfield, the railroad came to a halt. No other trains could pass as the other main track had been removed. So everybody got to sit and wait. And it did happen.
Conrail single tracked its Boston & Albany Line in 1986. Parts of the B&A have significant grades requiring the use of pusher engines. So now you have trains stopping to add or remove pusher units. These same heavy trains are moving very slowly over the grades and traffic quickly gets bogged down. In the early 90’s under a new senior management team, the decision was made to add a second main track to portions of the B&A. It was never mentioned as reinstalling previously removed track, it was installing a new second main track. Maybe they had Rod Roddy, the announcer from TV’s "The Price is Right" show appear at the presentation of this idea and say "A new main track!"
To read the story in the monthly Conrail employee magazine, you would think this was the greatest idea to come along in railroading since round wheels. It was an incredibly ingenious idea. Somebody was probably given a big bonus for coming up with this plan. So let’s see, at better than a million dollars a mile to reinstall the railroad, we saved how much from removing it all a decade earlier? Spending all the cash to put it back in will now save us how much more?
A personal favorite is the year the Wisconsin Central decided to save money by not preparing switch heaters for winter. Those pesky devices cost money to maintain and the gas needed to fire those heaters is really expensive. We can save money by just waiting until after winter has kicked into high gear. Maybe they were hoping winter would skip completely Wisconsin this year. I guess they certainly weren’t figuring winter would actually hit in Wisconsin in December. They didn’t factor winter into the budget.
Well, winter did hit with a vengeance. In early December of this particular year (cannot remember if it was 1989 or 90), we got a huge snowstorm. It was predicted too, not one of those sneak attack things. Well over a foot of snow fell. Along with it came high winds. Remote control switches at control points all over the railroad began to fill up with snow. Many switches had heaters in various states of disrepair or just not in place at all. Others that did have functioning heaters had no fuel in the nearby storage tanks to fire those burners.
The result of this was instant gridlock. All trains had to stop and dig out switches and then operate them by hand. Being instructed to pass stop signals then required the trains to operate at restricted speed to the next signal. Between the time spent cleaning out all the switches by hand and then all the restricted speed operation, virtually all the trains began to outlaw on the hours of service. One Dispatcher even commented on the radio about what an idiotic plan it was not to be prepared for winter.
As it would happen, I was on my day off. I watched the snow pile up in my driveway. I had a three-foot high drift at the foot of the drive. Most of the rest of the drive had some two feet of snow piled upon it. I certainly wasn’t going anywhere even with my "snow blower from hell" that carved through everything. The reports on TV and radio were telling everybody to say home. Numerous roads were closed including Rt. 23, the road I used to reach Fond du Lac from our little rural community some twelve miles to the west. It was snowing and blowing so bad the little town we lived in gave up on even attempting to plow the roads. The County Highway Department gave up on trying to keep Routes 23 and 26 through our town cleared. The wind was blowing the snow right back onto the roads behind the plows.
A friend called and recounted all the chaos in progress and how everything had gone straight to hell on the high iron. The railroad gods were most certainly loving this one. People began marking off en mass, as they could not make it to work. They had dead trains everywhere, more trains to switch up and depart and no crews. So they resorted to one of their favorite tactics, call the guys on their rest days and beg them to come to work, for a comp day. A comp day is a future day off with pay.
Being that we certainly were not going anywhere, the beautiful bride suggested we start making Christmas cookies. Sure, why not? I would help her out and get to munch on cookie dough and baked cookies as part of the deal. While we were engaged in the cookie making process, the telephone rings and the beautiful bride answers. It is the railroad.
"Can Joey come out and play?"
The first words out of the beautiful bride’s mouth were "Uh, have you taken a look outside lately? There is no way he is coming in today." A very persistent Administrative Coordinator tried to press the issue by mentioning the fact that we had a four-wheel drive vehicle.
"It doesn’t matter what we have, all the roads are closed and the media is telling everybody to stay home. He is not even about to try to come to work. Our driveway is buried and we cannot even get out of the garage" Actually, we could. We just could only go about two feet and then run into a giant drift.
With the winds blowing so hard and the snow still falling fast and furious, there was no sense to even attempt to get out the snow blower. It would be pointless, as the snow would be right back in the driveway behind me. I watched a neighbor trying to clear out his driveway achieving far less than the optimum desired results. He finally gave up and went back in. He didn’t go into work that day either. Only in his case, they cancelled the afternoon and night shifts account the weather.
I enjoyed my three days off and did not give any of them up to go in dogcatch dead trains. By the time I returned things were getting back to normal. They were putting fuel in fuel tanks for switch heaters and repairing or replacing switch heaters. I wonder how much they saved for this little cost-effective measure? I wonder how much more it cost them to save it?
Well I have returned to a regular assigned job now working the 338/337 pool. We go down one day (late night/early morning really), lay over and come back the following evening/night/early morning. I have Sundays off although we don’t get in until Sunday afternoon, but don’t return to work until Monday night. I was hoping this would give me more time to work at this computer among other things, but it hasn’t worked out that way thus far. I’m about to purchase a lap top computer though. I will bring it with me and have something constructive to do on our prolonged layovers besides get into trouble.
I am going to send out a blanket greeting and list of operating rules for Hot Times in the very near future. Some of you received one of these sometime ago, but since I have garnered a bunch of new subscribers in the past month or so, I’m going to send out another. It will have a topic indicating at as rules and use of. Those that already know the rules and regs and so desire can simply blast it out with the trusty delete key.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002
Conrail, after a so-called exhaustive study, determined they could close Enola Yard near Philadelphia as a major classification terminal.
Well, maybe to a Midwesterner the whole state of Pennsylvania looks alike, but... last I looked there's a big difference between Philly and Harrisburg and between the Delaware River and the Susquehanna!
Mike, I'm surprised you didn't comment thereupon...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I got the message at 2AM last nite.
Thanks for putting them up ... I stop cold and drop to read the High Irons ... LOVE 'em ...
Took a ride up to Dyre Ave. today (Tue 2/12) on the #5. Some questions:
(1) What is the purpose of the wood dividers separating the center track from the NB and SB local tracks from Jackson Ave. to E 180 on the 2/5 elevated line?
(2) Why was the #5 runnning a single track midday shuttle using normal SB track between Dyre and E 180?
Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to answer.
>>1) What is the purpose of the wood dividers separating the center track from the NB and SB local tracks from Jackson Ave. to E 180 on the 2/5 elevated line? <<
To protect the track workers who are in the process of rewiring that entire section for new signals.
>>2) Why was the #5 runnning a single track midday shuttle using normal SB track between Dyre and E 180? <<
Track and structural work at Pelham Parkway.
>>1) What is the purpose of the wood dividers separating the center track ... <<
[To protect the track workers who are in the process of rewiring that entire section for new signals.]
My understanding is that this is the secondary purpose. It's main purpose is to enable the trains to proceed at normal speed (they don't have to go slow thru the area & the TA doesn't have to position flagmen along the whole route). Since it's a big expense to put up the reason had to have someting to do with saving the TA money vs. just worker safety :-(
Mr rt
Were those the men who used to "help" us get on the trains at the busy stations back in the 1940's & 1950's?
Since everyone seems to have a letter job nowadays, are they now called P/C's?
Yes. I don'y know about now, but in olden times on the BMT, they were in the third tier of conductor pay. The lead conductor was the highest pay grade, the second/assistant/guard on the trains (with more than one conductor) were next, and platform conductors were the lowest.
AND the grumpiest! I forget where I found it, but there was a BMT *MANUAL* for conductors about the proper rules for literally EJECTING customers from a MOVING train. And ya wonder how they kept time years ago? Well ... but "platform conductors" were the custoemr service types that people wax nostalgic for these days ... but heaven help you if you kept a door from closing when the yellow lights went out.
...and what was the pay scale for the Motorman?
Peace,
ANDEE
A bit more ...
and now it's a popular spot to pick
I believe in Tokyo they have a version of those that push people onto the train, or actually pack people on the train like sardines. And everyone thought the NY subway was crowded!
And yes, they're called "platform conductors" there as well, a concept derived in Japan from ... the IRT ... anyone ever wonder how 30 TPH was EASY? The IRT had people who would either cram your butt IN to the car, or toss it across the platform for the NEXT train. Door holding? I think not. :)
But hey, it was violent, and sometimes a member of the dumba$$ geese pursuasion would get bloodied by a platform conductor for polluting the gene pool, but the trains ran on time. Rudy came close I'd bet to enforcing it too were not the MTA a STATE agency and Paturkey is devoid of stones. :)
I had fun when I was assigned to Platform duty. I really miss that job but some C/R's hate it. When the road C/R says "Stand clear of the closeing doors" I do my best to block the one door everyone is using.
As a Platform C/R you need to be agressive to keep train moving on time if your not agressive the geese will fly by you like your not there.
However the best part of being a Platform C/R isn't playing defence with doors but Its the women you meet. My spot was Times Square. One asked my direction to my house.
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...........did you give them to her?????? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Future Engineer on the Atlantic Coast Railway
(virtual railway for MSTS)
No, She was older then me. She was in her 30's.
And the problem was?
Heh. Never did that ... but one of the nice things about a long express run was you could chat it up with folks in the train between stops and I got lucky here and there as well. :)
Just out of curiosity - on those few occasions when you did conductor duty on the R-32s, did you ever find yourself moving a guard chain out of habit, only to stop yourself and say "Whoops, wrong car class"? (As long as you didn't attempt to climb onto step plates that weren't there)
Heh. Nope ... the bright fluorescent lighting for one was a clue that this wasn't your father's R9 ... and having to use the key all the time and getting ready for PA duty did kinda keep the mind clear. And I never wrong-sided either. :)
And no "tch-ssssss" magnet valve sounds, either. I did like the way the compressors would kick in on those cars.
I was under the impression that only one line was to be taken out of service with the exception of Brighton and Culver Lines at the same time with the rotation as follows
1-Sea Beach Line(N Line)
2-Brighton Line- with Q Line trains using the Sea Beach Platform
3-Culver Line-same as Brighton with F trains termainting at Ave X and Shuttle ioerating to W. 8th St.
4-West End Line- with the W or B by then using the Sea Beach platform
If this is the case then why is the N and W Lines being changed
Thank You
At Gun Hill Road on the Dyre Av line...
Have fun!
The set was seen on the test track while they were doing emergency track work on the Dyre Av line...all northbound 5s were routed to 238th St...a shuttle of R62As was running the Dyre-E 180th line...(2200-2199-2198-2197-2196-2446-2447-2448-2449-2450, #2200 had upside-down purple 11s!) (2) trains were delayed because of this whole track work mess-up...
BTW, #8914-15 and a few other cars have (7) on the signage...possible move to Corona?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page...Cruising the Northeast Fare-Free!
By the way ... what's with that "stripy thing" near the first door there? Vest marks? :)
Maybe a GHOST!
No, that one's R40 #4208.
wayne
>>By the way ... what's with that "stripy thing" near the first door there? Vest marks? :)<<
That striping has a dual purpose. First it signifies the part of the consist/car that is wheelchair accessible. Second, the red colored dots in a fade scheme is a salute to the Redbirds as is the red treatment on the front bonnet by the head/marjker lights. It's sort of "transit panache"
Bill "Newkirk"
Ah well ... it looks like a stain from the pictures ... I guess the standard "wheelchair symbol" would confuse the geese. Sheesh.
>>I guess the standard "wheelchair symbol" would confuse the geese. Sheesh.<<
Honk!
Bill "Newkirk"
It's amusing ... a year ago, I was shaking my head over how a conductor could POSSIBLY open up on the wrong side and how somehow the TA had to punish the MOTORMAN by whipping in door enablers. Then it became "how could they design a train that easts brakeshoes?" The last few days, it was "vest?!?! What's THAT supposed to prove?" and now ... a red stain where the handicapped individual brushed against a moving train? What next?
I think it's time for the TA to start giving drug tests to MANAGEMENT. SERIOUSLY. :)
Seriously! It sounds like a BRILLIANT idea, Kev.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Heh ... always referred to it as "community whiz" ... after all, just because you go past SG-27 or M-1 doesn't mean you haven't suffered a case of subduction, smoking QUACK ... :)
Timothy Leary was more logical than some of the things I've been seeing here lately from management. If I was still with the TA, I would definitely fear that I'd go completely "transit" (because "postal just isn't enough anymore") ... sheesh.
*lmfao*
Goin' twansit....what would ya do? Go parallel thru the City Hall loop, or the South Ferry loop [on the (5)]? Or go parallel on the (3) as it barrells down after 42nd Street towards 72nd?
Stuart, RLine86Man
Nah, just bitchslap the TMO ... go on "medical leave" until I chilled. Fortunately, didn't have to get there. :)
Not yet anyway :-D
Moo. Oink, Oink.
Stuart, RLine86Man
And ya wonder why I blew town to live with the cows? :)
*still lmfaorotfl*
Yeah, guess I can....baaa baaa :-P
Stuart, RLine86Man
Village has ordinances against sheep farming here. Too many Saudis living here I guess. Whoops! International incident. now ask me if I give a crap. Next stop will be New Utrecht ... watch the closing doors, bingbong.
Nah, ya dun't give a *beeping for short while* arse...
"This is Atlantic Coast Railways Acela Express # 104, the next AND last stop is Philadelphia. ALLLLLLL ABOAAAARRRRD!"
Stuart D. Guberman
Future Engineer of the ACR (virtual railroad for MSTS)
Heh..I know MANY transit employees, management and rank & file alike...and they all tell the same sorry story of opression...I would/could never work for them. Their loss.
Peace,
ANDEE
And the thing that gets me about it was I guess I was spoiled back in 1970/71 when I did MY thing there - it was JUST as anal, but reality had crept in and a TMO was just glad to see a train arrive at their terminal and GEESE EXITED! :)
There was a LOT of slack back then even if you got the formal yelling at for being late ... you'd sit down next to the trainmaster, fill out your bad order forms, hand over the ticket from the RCI and you were done. Go walk the platform and take the next wreck out. Heh.
Back in MY day, they were just glad you SHOWED UP. That was good ENOUGH. If the train didn't burn down, you scored a victory.
Dumb assed Vichy Frog trainset design crap: how can a wheelchair user use that space much less pull down the spring loaded seat? There are no tie points to keep a wheelchair from rolling down the aisle!!! Busses are more compatible....CI Peter
>>how can a wheelchair user use that space much less pull down the spring loaded seat?<<
Peter, the seat doesn't have to be pulled down, it's already in the up position for the wheelchair to roll there. But don't wheelchairs have wheel locks on them to prevent rolling ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I understand the cutout space and why the seat is folded up BUT if you ever ride the MTA busses you will see the 'rigging' to 'assure the safety' of the wheelchair assisted. The friction levers on the wheelchair along with the possibility of the chair toppling requires the safety straps. Perhaps it is wishfull thinking that the R142s are stable enough to depend upon the friction levers to hold the chair in place. CI Peter
.....were seen this afternoon doing simulated stops along the L line. Looks like the R143 invasion is about to resume. Stay tuned..........
I personally think that Express services hurt more than they help. What are other oppinions?
In the 1970's when expresses were expresses times were shaven off like crazy. The 4 line can get you from Lower Manhattan to the Bronx in 20 minutes, competing with the car. Since the timers were installed on the tracks in the 90's its killed time, but its effective nonetheless. If you ride the A,C,Q,E,4,5 lines you understand the value of express.
And I think you also have to look at it as a matter of capacity and flexibiltiy. With a four track system, you can physically move more people than you can with a 2 track (or 3 track) system. Also, when repairs/maintenance/re-construction is needed, you can put one track out of serivce in a direction and run the others over the remaining working track. Look at how bad things were about 2 years ago when they were doing some project on the 1 line on upper B'way; many weekends the line was shut and shuttle bus service was running, a real pain! But on the 72 rebuild, trains still ran (with some congestion no doubt).
I admit the time savings are not tremendous, but I will still take an express whenever I can, so the precepction is there, and many times preception is more important than reality.
Piggo
They do their job, but not as well as they could. Like Mr. Rivera mentioned, timers have been killing their effectiveness.
However, they are still faster than locals in most cases. The 4/5 from Brooklyn Bridge to 86th Street shaves a good 5-6 minutes off my trip compared to the 6 train.
The philosophy of express trains back at the turn of the last century was that locals fed into the expresses every few stops. It kept the locals from becoming too crowded, and gave everybody a fast ride for part of thier journey.
The construction of the IND tried to change this. Express trains came from further out, and for those who were in the local's zone there was supposed to be no advantage in switching to the express.
The IND also wanted everyone from Queens or Brooklyn to switch to the express to get to Manhattan. This can could still be seen somewhat on the Queens Line until the V killed the GG. The GG used to be the Queens Local, and it never did go to Manhattan: You were *supposed* to change to the express. The same affair was planned for brooklyn both on the Fulton line and on the Culver line but the idea never worked there.
I would envision "Fast Expresses" that might serve outlying areas of Queens, and once past Jamaica Center would move non-stop to downtown.
I have set up a sequence of photos for my screen saver, and some are old photos from this site, and others are newer photos that I have taken. The older cars look lighter, smaller, and faster as compared to the newer cars. I just can't picture these new beasts making the same fast runs as the older cars. And apparently they don't. There sems to be less and less of an advantage to express services in Manhattan. These bigger, heavier trains need to manouver more slowly, and since trying to merge IND and BMT services, they have really screwed up the merge points.
Any new construction needs to look at smoothing and strighetening these lines to promote higher speeds.
Look again at my Myrtle - Fifth Avenue Line to see how an express train could be made to work.
Elias
First, in what whey do they hurt more than they help? You haven't given any reason other than to make the assertion.
What express services would you eliminate?
There are a few places where the trains running express would be more useful on the local track.
Astoria was one example. The people thought that W trains would be more useful making every stop then they would be going express and saving 2 minutes.
Express service on Broadway in Manhattan doesn't seem too worthwhile either, in my opinion. Due to congestion approaching the bridge, a local and an express leaving 57th St. at the same time won't be more than a minute or 2 apart by the time they get to Canal.
Getting rid of all expresses, though, is a bad idea. Many of them do save a lot of time. Queens Blvd. and 8th Ave. (north of 59th Street, if you know what I mean) are just 2 examples.
"Express service on Broadway in Manhattan doesn't seem too worthwhile either, in my opinion. Due to congestion approaching the bridge, a local and an express leaving 57th St. at the same time won't be more than a minute or 2 apart by the time they get to Canal."
Broadway is exactly where express service *is* needed. There is no way you could put enough tph down the local tracks to serve all of the outlying lines feeding into Broadway.
Elais
There are a few places where the trains running express would be more useful on the local track.
Astoria was one example. The people thought that W trains would be more useful making every stop then they would be going express and saving 2 minutes.
Granted
Express service on Broadway in Manhattan doesn't seem too worthwhile either, in my opinion. Due to congestion approaching the bridge, a local and an express leaving 57th St. at the same time won't be more than a minute or 2 apart by the time they get to Canal.
The local tracks on this and every other Manhattan mainline could not accomodate all the service on the line, so what would you do? Rebuild all stations to island platforms?
Getting rid of all expresses, though, is a bad idea. Many of them do save a lot of time. Queens Blvd. and 8th Ave. (north of 59th Street, if you know what I mean) are just 2 examples.
Time saved is not just a matter of minutes. There's a sort of psychological time. Every time a train starts and stops it seems like the trip is longer. So someone riding a Brighton Express instead of a local from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach, say, is going to be more aware that he "saved seven stops" than that he "saved five minutes."
The local tracks on this and every other Manhattan mainline could not accomodate all the service on the line, so what would you do? Rebuild all stations to island platforms?
Exactly. You need all four tracks, and 2 might as well be express. Just look what a disaster the 6th Ave line is without the MB and all 4 tracks running properly
That psychological time is quite true, I've fallen victim to it. I've passed up a local commuter train which would take 1 hr 6 minutes for an express that left a half hour later and took 51 minutes. I hate making stops.
That sounds like the Babylon branch LIRR. I can't psychologically make all those stops between Jamaica and Babylon, if I'm changing for a Patchogue train. I would rather wait at Jamaica. Luckily most of the connecting trains to Babylon for Patchogue are express or semi-express. Some, however are local.
yea i guess ur talkin about the ones that stop at freeport and babylon. i love those expresses! there are even some super expresses like straight from babylon to NY and so on
Yeah, I can handle it when it stops at just Freeport, or Seaford, or Amityville. But it dives me nuts to be caught on a full local through there.
The best express is the 5:41 from Penn to Ronkonkoma
Penn, Hicksville, then CI, & Ronkonkoma!
Great ride!
Express service on Broadway in Manhattan doesn't seem too worthwhile either, in my opinion.
The 6th Ave line (when running normally) doesn't offer much of an "express" either, but the thing that make it good is that the "express" increases the line from 2 to 4 tracks, thus allowing more trains, even if it don't skip all that many stations.
Yet it is not uncommon to see a C train leave 59 and get to 125 within 1 or 2 minutes (if not actually before) an A train. But that is timers!
My love affair with the subway would be over in a heartbeat if all express service were to be eliminated. I am an incurable expressaholic. Granted it was more exciting in the good old days, but it's still a vital necessity.
1. When a local line has poor service, and when the local stop areas have been significantly built up after the construction of the line, some lines hurt more people(those at local stops), than would get an advantagefrom it(current express customers)
-A/D CPW express-
I would put an express stop at 81st and 96th, and possibly 1110th,A local above 145
-No skip stops
-I might make the 3 local on broadway(9 would then be express)
- More locals than expresses(1:2 ratio)
what they said. "rapid trassit"
I personally think that Express services hurt more than they help.
Say that when you are at Brooklyn Bridge on your way to the Bronx. What would you rather be on: the 6 or the 4/5. I gaurantee at Union Square you'll be ready to cross the platform if you were on the 6. That's just one example of how well the express/local works. It's repeated around the city on various lines, one exception may be the disaster the 7th Ave line has become since 9/11, but that's Osama's fault and not permanent.
I agree....the 3 express is worthless in saving time from 14 to say 96 st, but three lines can't run on the 7 ave local, it would be more nuts than it is now.
=)
If I'm at Brooklyn Bridge and heading to (random selection of any station on the 6), it makes more sense for me to get a seat at BB on the 6 nad stay in it to my destination, than to stand on a 4/5 to 125 St and stand on a 6 to my destination.
While I agree with what you are saying about the 6, think of it this way: Say they were to end express service on the Lex, so the 4 & 5 were to be local. If you were destined for any random station on the White Plains line, or woodlawn, would you like the 4 or 5 to be express like they are now, or local all the way from Brooklyn Bridge. While express service service doesn't benefit everyone, it benefits enough people to make it worth it. No service will always benefit everyone.
Even expresses that don't save that much time are useful because it adds capacity to lines that would be way overcrowded if they only had local lines.
Here in Phila, express service works great on Broad St but the watered-down skip-stop semi-express service on Market-Frankford is pretty much useless. Those patrons using the handful of remaining A or B stops get reduced levels of service with little benefit. Continued A/B service helps the original intent (better utilization of fleet) very little and the passengers even less. I've always thought, given the level of ridership from the El's terminal points, that alternate limited stop trains from Frankford (non-stop after Erie-Torresdale) and 69th St (non-stop after 63rd) would be more effective than A/B.
A great idea for Market-Frankford service. I figured that skipping some lesser-used stops on an express and having a local behind it would work. That pretty much means, the only stops made would be: 69th St, 63rd St, 52nd St, all of the underground stops, Spring Garden, Girard, Allegheny, Erie-Torresdale, Margaret-Orthodox, and Bridge-Pratt/Frankford Terminal. Unfortunately, without a 4-track running space, headways would need to be decreased in order for an express to avoid being tied up behind a local, thus nullifying the need to skip a stop.
By any chance, do you know just why they added 34th St and 2nd St as stops on the B train, and Spring Garden on the A? Or Spring Garden (as of 1994) and Race-Vine (sometime in 1990/91) to the Broad St. Line express? Nobody I know that works for SEPTA seems to remember.
Strangely enough, Millbourne was handling a large number of rush-hour patrons for a while when the old Sears parking lot adjacent to it opened to commuter parking. I'm not sure if it's still operating that way, but people were actually using the stop for a change.
The watering-down of A/B and Broad St express service is purely politically motivated. SEPTA just can't say no to politicians so it caves. 34th, 2nd and Spring Garden worked fine as skip-stop stations for many years (I spent 4 years going to college riding between 34th and 2nd and having A trains only stop at each was sufficient). On Broad St, the problem was compounded since Spring Garden and Race-Vine have express platforms so it made little sense to bypass them to some people. The same thing exists at North Phila and one of these days it will no doubt become an express stop also.
In college I did a student project on the revision of El service to allow express/local operation in place of skip-stop. If expresses leave ahead of locals by 1 minute at each end, with 5-minute headways, trains will be spaced sufficiently to avoid delays. It could work. The riders who are hurt, however, are those riding in-between outlying stops who don't travel to/from Center City.
Sounds like a great idea. Though I can't imagine what may happen under my initial devised plan, which was to run expresses from the main terminals, and locals from soeplace like 52nd Street to Allegheny... too many missed stops, so I avoided giving them that idea
I think, due to the demolition of the building, the lot is temporarily closed at Millbourne, though they still have signs advertising the parkking available. And I have seen tire tracks too small to fit any construction vehicle. 46th Street had commuter parking until Aldi opened.
North Philadelphia WAS an express stop... for about two months. In October 1997, SEPTA changed the Broad-Ridge Spur from its old express mimic to its REALLY old service as a shuttle from Girard or local to/from Erie and Fern Rock. At that time, between October 27th, 1997 and December 22nd, 1997, Express trains stopped at North Philadelphia. Express riders were displeased, as were the Ridge riders - I warned them that this would happen. The head of operations on the line wrote me back, saying that my forewarning was well taken; the change would have a negative affect, but the many new commuters to Temple University couldn't be handled by the already ridiculous amount of local trains and both divisions of Route C, and by Routes 23, 3, and 47 (and 39)... notice he omitted my suggestion that Regional Rail could take it. Well, I guess Regional Rail and the buses and existing locals handled it - all this change did was irritate customers and chip away at express and Ridge ridership.
As of December 22nd, 1997, Express trains bypass North Philadelphia - that's for the express Ridge, which terminates at Olney, save two odd trains on weekdays, all weeknight (7PM to last train) and Saturday service. Those trains mentioned as not terminating at Olney go through to Fern Rock (likely, this change from the original Ridge express, all of which went to Fern rock is to avoid overcrowding up there - the trains on the Ridge cover for the express when it's not running for the night, or day in a Saturday's case.)
I subscribe to the philosophy that the more stops a train makes, the more there is potential for stupidity. What I mean by that: people holding the doors, people asking crew members questions when the train is supposed to be leaving, doors not closing, motorman not getting indication, etc. Especially when the TA insists on purchasing and running 75 foot cars, which means there are only 32 doors available as opposed to 40. And then they want to know why it takes so long for those trains to load and off load. Duh!!
Yeah, but I'll bet motormen and conductors now having a "vested interest" in how it all runs, those trains will be moving faster now. :)
Express service is necessary, but not necessarily for decreasing travel time time as opposed to increasing capacity.
Cars 6866-70 are in the house....Literally speaking at the East.
-Stef
I have a status question on the 6400's and high-end 6300's - they are all back on the road after having mechanical problems worked out, correct? I saw my first 6400-series cars on Saturday - #6411 and #6426 sets. Made me wax nostalgic for my old friends, the R16s.
wayne
No. There are some still OOS.
6361-6410, 6436-65, 6471-75, and 6481-6500 are either sidelined or are in the process of being modified for eventual service.
-Stef
6446-50/6456-60 are sitting at Unionport. Looks like they are going to simulation tests shortly. I believe there are R142s at CCYD and Lenox Yards.
William Bryk has a story in this week's edition, entitled The Road of Hubris on the history of the NYW&B and its parent company, the New Haven Railroad, at the turn of the century.
It's interesting in explaining why the New Haven would set up a railroad to partially compete with itself, and shows the company president Charles Sanger Mellen knew all of Enron's accounting tricks 90 years before anyone in Houston ever thought of them...
GREAT story!
Very good article indeed. I see the parallels with NYW&B and Enron.
Bill "Newkirk"
I give you another parallel:
J.P. Morgan was financially involved with the NYW & B. J.P. Morgan Chase is financially involved with Enron.
>>J.P. Morgan was financially involved with the NYW & B. J.P. Morgan Chase is financially involved with Enron.<<
Now that's really eerie!
What comes around, goes around ?
History repeats itself ?
Bill "Newkirk"
No, the Eerie was another railroad. :)
I give you another parallel:
J.P. Morgan was financially involved with the NYW & B. J.P. Morgan Chase is financially involved with Enron.
Here's another one: Enron is the largest bankruptcy in history. William Bryk, who wrote the NYPress article, is a well-known bankruptcy lawyer.
I didn't know about his real-life job as a bankruptcy lawyer, though that would explain in part his interest in the forensics of the NYW&B and it's New Haven connection. Unlike most lawyers, though, Bryk writes about the financial charades without falling into the legalese quagmire.
The story also explains why my dad told me back in the 1960s that the NHRR was to northeastern railroading what the Ottoman Empire was to European nations in 1913 -- the chronically sick man of the bunch even compaired with the Pensy and the NY Central. Apparently, they never really recovered from Mellon's pre-WWI scams, and the NYW&B was one of the first route casualties.
The story also explains why my dad told me back in the 1960s that the NHRR was to northeastern railroading what the Ottoman Empire was to European nations in 1913 -- the chronically sick man of the bunch even compaired with the Pensy and the NY Central. Apparently, they never really recovered from Mellon's pre-WWI scams, and the NYW&B was one of the first route casualties.
Continung this analogy a bit, the Pennsylvania RR was like the British Empire in 1913 - strong and triumphant, the "gold standard" model that other railroads/nations could only envy ... yet it ended up collapsing anyhow.
Second Avenue, 75 years of Enron in New York!
avid
William Bryk's articles always are excellent reading. I hope he does some more rail- or transit-related ones.
If you're interested most of his columns going back for a year are on the nypress.com website...just do a search for his name when you get there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
William Bryk turns in uniformly excellent semiweekly NY Post columns. I wish someone would collect his work (Knipfel, Millionaire and Katchor among present or former NY Press-ers have already been so collected)...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bombardier and SuperSteel (makers of the LIRR DEMU's and Turbo rebuilds) have gotten together with Mitsubishi to bid on the next round of subway cars and propulsion systems. Story here:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyKey=76739&category=B
I bet this contract will be awarded on technical and financial merit. NOT. Sooper Steal must have a lot of good people working for them, they've gotten and blown the DE/DM loco order, the Turboliners, now they get to screw us downstaters even more! :(
IMHO, I want to see the stupid 'made in NY' law repealed. at least we could choose from real rail equipment instead of stuff from these losers...
Well, considering how much trouble Bomba and SS are in already, it sure will be interesting to see if they can qualify to bid. But we'll all know VERY soon from the looks of it, the fix already seems to be in, and Paturkey and Joey Bruno, head of our state Senate are pulling for these guys. What they're pulling of course I'll leave open to speculation. But thought folks would be interested as this sure didn't make the news, not even HERE ... just has that "submarine" kinda smell to it if the press didn't know about it until yesterday ...
With all the problems mentioned on the board over the past year with the R-142s, compaired with the Kawasakis over on the Pelham yard, I'm surprised none of the local papers has jumped on the slowness of the Bombardier arrivals yet. That should go over great up in Albany, since the less light that's shed on the fact that Plattsburgh is two years behind on delivery, the better the chance that they can bid on the R-160 order without any questions (and with the appropriate political contibutions during the upcoming campaign season, of course).
Ah ... you *DO* understand how it's all wired up. Yep ... pity Enron didn't make railcars. :)
the ultimate beauty here is the capital'operating money split. It is GOOD for pols to give money to capitalist crooks, but bad to spend money on 'socialist' operation and maintenance of such products by gov't entities. Even Reagan's goons put extra money in the FTA grant pipeline to jack up manufacturing causing a local bus operator here to buy buses they didn'y need 'cause the Fed money was use it or lose it. meanwhile the same outfit was bleeding operating money and cutting service.. Clearly, if the pols figure a way to get a piece Amtrak will be revived with a vengence.
November's coming soon and just like the West End line, the W will be done once its term is up and da bridge is open again. :)
>>>....the W....<<<
Don't you mean the governor?
Peace,
ANDEE
'the fix already seems to be in'
Are we talking about trains of figure skating??!?!!
-Robert King
You mean you actually CARE about the Olympics? Yep ... looks like the winner of the competition got the same treatment as our own elections here. Wonder how many centuries it will be before the USA gets an Olympic event again ... and I'm not kidding ... the whole WORLD is pissed over the sideshow in Salt Lick City ...
My sentiments included.
Regards,
Danny
>>>You mean you actually CARE about the Olympics?<<<
Yeah, when do they happen again....oops, you mean they're going on NOW?
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh man, is MSNBC gonna be cheesed with YOU! :)
I've gotten to discover Dan Rather and what's his name from the Mickey Mouse network news. Heh.
WHO?
Peace,
ANDEE
I forgot ... :)
I didn't know in the first place either. :) I guess it can't have been all that important...
-Robert King
Network news here in the states is most forgetable. :)
Care about the Olympics? After the 2008 Toronto bid? With all the scandals being reported about the IOC and the bribes, kickbacks and other favours their delegations to host city candidates in the news back while that was going on (and the various protest groups the possibility of the Olympics brought out like the Bread-Not-Circuses act for one), I'm not not interested any more. At the time I was already beginning to loose my respect for the Olympics because of their earlier scandals, but none of those hold a candle to this one now in progress. I don't see how the host country factors into this one though; I don't think the ability of the USA to sucessfully bid on future Olympic games will be affected. But, wherever they're held, the chances that the winter games in future will include the skating competitions or the ISU is open to speculation for now...
-Robert King
You're not alone ... first off, I'm not into Teevee sports to begin with - which means I always got me PLENTY when the stuporbowl had my sexual competitors crushing beer cans on their skulls and diving into vats of potato chips - in fact, Nancy (bingbong) and I host "anti-superbowl parties" for the disaffected wimmens in the hood here with chick movies and an open bar ... heh.
As to the Olympics, well ... I'm sorry, kinda hard to get excited over Nike ads and the 100 meter groin pull. :)
You mean you don't want to see the riot police break up a Bread-Not-Circuses rally? That's a faster, higher, stronger contest even if it isn't an olympic sport!
Anyways, my only interest in the Olympics besides "How rotten does this scandal get?" was during the 2008 bid concerning public transportation funding: if we did get 2008, the current non-funding situation would've been fixed and, at a minimum, the subway extension from Downsview to York U. would've been started along with something to connect the airport to the city.
Just think of how boring the Olympics would have been without this scandal to make it interesting... The press conference slated for 1:00 today should be juicy especially if they admit to rigging the results because that'll drag the IOC uner the microscope...
I can't stand sports either. I was never any good and didn't like playing them and I can't tolerate watching them for more than 2 minutes, TV or in person.
-Robert King
Heh. Looks like you'll have no problem "getting some" and as to the Olympics, well ... most fine restaurants with home fries are Olympics too. Yawn. :)
As far as NBC goes (official network of the ... eeeeyawn) I miss seeing "President" (as opposed to "resident" on CNN) but hey, I've got a satellite dish. More time for the Red Green show and the National as far as I'm concerned - we've got Starz, Showtime, Encore, IFC and movies out the wazoo on lesser known NON-AOL channels, so we cool. I haven't spent a nanosecond on da Olympics. Hell, I'd watch the Junkees first. But I am aware of the Canadian screwage ... USA ... USA ... USA ... I guess.
But I no care ... shhhhhh ... I'm hunting terrorists ... be vewy vewy qwiet ... it's a nonspecific threat, but I'll bet Tonya Harding's behind it all ... :)
*lmfao*
And Nancy Kerrigan's helpin' the "Prez" on the homeland security office, huh? :-D
Frankly, the only thing I watch with the Oh-limp-icks is the very beginning of the show---for the opening music...but otherwise, it's boring, etc, etc....and if NYC wants to continue to bid for the 2012 Summer Olympics, that's gonna cause a major traffic NIGHTMARE IF and ONLY IF NYC was to actually WIN the bid (one in a billion shot...just because NYC's a terrorist attraction [instead of TOURIST ATTRACTION].
Stuart, RLine86Man
Not to worry ... between Shrub's DEMANDING of displaying a flag that says "America's been blowed up to the world, pity us" instead of a steel and concrete flag that says "go ahead, mofos, you TRY to take out THIS one" just pythed off the planet and the shenanigans behind the scenes, I doubt ANY location in the US will elicit the International Olympic Committee to choose a US venue again for a LONG time ...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not unpatriotic here, but the OLYMPICS are NOT intended to belong to ANY country and the US has pretty much trashed that theme for global consumption. You can still win a war and screw up global sensibilities at the same time ... oh bloody hell, no matter how I try to bail myself out of whatever some folks might think about what I just said, I'm going to be in trouble anyway. Lemme put it this way - make note of the "Olympics in USA again will be a LONG time from now" ... remember that. We're not doing ourselves any favors in the rest of the world ... and New York City is STILL getting screwed for taking a punch in the face for the REST of America ... so even NYC will not be all that happy either. I'll leave it there.
>>>...and I host "anti-superbowl parties"<<<
OOOOH, what do I have to do to be on the invite list?
Peace,
andee
The one time I went/was dragged to a football game when I was in high school, I ended up moving to the top row of the seats as the game went on and was eventually standing at the centre where the dividing line for both groups of fans were. I lasted about five minutes before I started boo hissing BOTH teams and nobody realized what I was up to. Honestly, I couldn't wait to get out of there.
-Robert King
Amtrak fare ... we're up about 15 miles west of Smallbany. But there's always room for more.
I was at Atlantic Ave on the L line today and I didn't know they started taking it apart. Are they going to reconfigure it to leave just the western platfrom and get rid of the S curve? or are they going to demolish the center and eastern platforms also? Why didn't they do it years ago when they got rid of the Fulton el in the first place? Oh well, it's a pity that they're destroying the little that's left of the BMT's former glory.
Yes they are! The future Atlantic Avenue L station will be, when finished, just the current Canarsie platform, in both directions. All other remaining el structures will be remnoved, including the current Manhattan bound platform.
It is probably a good idea, considering how service is run today, but it is a little sad because Atlantic will be a ghost of what it used to be. I believe that Atlantic Avenue is the least used station in all of Brooklyn (aside from the Franklin shuttle) Amazing considering it connects directly with the LIRR.
Sorry for the delay in posting this message. However last night ANOTHER 5 car train of R 62As arrived to Corona Yard. The car #s are from south to north: 2152 2151 2147 2146 2149. They are not coupled to the previous 10 cars that arrived this past Friday (02/08/02)sounds like the 7 wants to become an ALL R 62A line.
And the R33 ML have went back home because 9338 which was coupled to 8955 and 8970 is now coupled to 9362 and 9456. Also The ML R36 are being coupled together: 9534/5 coupled to 9531/0, 9543/2 coupled to 9546/7 and 9527/6 is coupled to 9537/6 and 9379/8 is coupled to 9532/3 all on the same train.
I think this is the beginning of the end for the RedBirds on the 7 folks. Get your shots now while you can.
#2152 Flushing Local
As a railfan, I hang my head in mourning for the most fun NYCT cars currently in service. Speaking for #7 commuters, however, I can say this with authority:
YAHOO!!! TRAINS THAT DON'T LEAK!!!
Dan
And I happy to see that there would be no more lights going on and off. That's one reason why I don't like Redbirds.
Actually, the little sheets were fun to operate. If you grabbed 60, they MEANT it when they applied. But man oh man, when I finally got to SEE them again after nearly 20 years away from the city, it broke my heart seeing the condition that the turdburds had gotten into. When I reached down and borke off a HUGE piece of anticlimber, I damned near sheet myself at how DEALY those things are if they were in a wreck.
All I can say is if the Union Square wreck had occurred with a REDTURD train, HUNDREDS would have been killed. no joke. Them things are rotted *FAR* beyond the crap that was melted in the 70's ... wow.
I'm another one that will be happy to see the "REDBIRDS" go. They are rusted beyond belief and they are quite noisy. The only thing that the "REDBIRDS" are good for now is the scrap heap.
#3 West End Jeff
It's a shame really ... I know there's a lot of folks who loved them every bit as much as I loved by R1/9's ... but even the old prewar cars never got as used up as the 'boids did ... marone ...
The "Redbirds" have been thoroughly used in their lifetime. They were the workhorses of the IRT for many years.
#3 West End Jeff
The TA sure did get their money's worth out of them. The "torch" has been passed ... and maybe if there's some gas left in the tank, we can make Salaam happy and apply the torch to cut a foamer periscope in the roof or something. :)
Salaam probably would like to live in an old "Redbird" subway car.
#3 West End Jeff
>>Salaam probably would like to live in an old "Redbird" subway car<<
No Jeff, he isn't interested in the whole car, just the railfan window !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Then send him a storm door from an old "Redbird".
#3 West End Jeff
install railfan windows on all rolling stock in NYC !!
& i would have a set snt out here to the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM !!
& i would have a set sent out here to the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM !!
so by this summer no more redbirds on the # 7 ??
i only needed this for this summer !
damnit !
LEAVE THE REDBIRDS ALONE! they still rock the tracks! better than some of ur A division equipment who shall remain without a title.......
Well, I have to disagree in 'leaving them alone.' By riding the 7 line almost day, I am appalled in the condition most of them are. Scratchiti is everywhere. Thin gaps are developing between the doors. As for the inside, it could use a clean-up; dust looms on the ceiling.
I don't know about THAT - in 1991 they had ten years, eleven years less on their hides than they do now - I don't think that a train of Redbirds would have split in half the way that the tin-can R62 did. Look at #8884 for a side-impact study of curtain wall vs. R33 - there WAS a difference in speed (15mph vs 45mph) to be considered, but there was no compromising of the carbody. I think the lead car would have been damaged the way that the third R62 (#1440) was - with a severe dent, possibly halfway across the floor, but split in two? Not a Redbird.
wayne
Well, my comment was based on their PRESENT condition, and based on what I observed personally, had one of the 'boids I saw hit some steel, it would have disintegrated into DUST ... I pulled about 6 by 4 inches of anticlimber off the end of a car, poked at what looked like bondo only to have it fall OFF the side of a car ... seriously ... now granted, some of them are probably not completely rotted through, but I made it a point to sit and watch many consists playing "spot the defects" and there were a good number of cars that were absolutely GONE ...
I won't ride 'em ... and agreed, I saw the pix of what happened not only to the Union Square wreck, but also the Jerome incident where one just buckled ...
wiil they all be gone this summer?
Only time will tell.
#9358 Flushing Express
Bet on No.
please ....!!!
Keep your "transverse cab equipped cabs"
" R-62 silver BOYDS " ......etc...............UGH!
off of the # 7 line until next year !! PLEASE !!!
Thank You very much ...
sincerely, SalaamAllah .....
I would bet that the oldest ones (R26, 28, 29) will all be gone before the end of this year.
wayne
they arent now?
There probably aren't too many R-26s and R-28s left, and the R-29 ranks have been thinned out significantly AFAIK.
How are they getting there? What's the routing that the R62A's travel to get from the Mainline to Corona?
Probably Concourse to CIY via Brighton, then back to Manhattan via Sea Beach or West End to Broadway, 60th St. tunnel, Queensboro Plaza, then switch to the Flushing line.
What if anything are they doing aboput double trip-cocks, and where's the 11th car ?
They can always use an R-62A single; AFAIK some of them will remain single cars.
I know that, but 10 care were first sent to Corona, not 11.
One car, 2155, was sent to Corona for Car Equipment training purposes long before the first group of 10 cars were sent.
This all definitely shows the sun is setting on the Redbirds. Silver now will dominate the 7 in time.
They can always paint that lower panel red. It was designed there in the sheet metal to be blue. At least do the part around the fiberglass shell in front. They're so bland looking.
please ....!!!
Keep your "transverse cab equipped cabs"
" R-62 silver BOYDS " ......etc...............UGH!
off of the # 7 line until next year !! PLEASE !!!
Thank You very much ...
sincerely, SalaamAllah .....
Yeah it really would be nice to keep the Redbirds (I wouldn't mind a chance to operate them when I move up to to motorman someday), but the reality is setting in.......the sun sets on the Redbirds, and silver will be the dominant color on the Flushing Line and all the IRT!! Very sad, but unfortunately true :-(
by this summer ??
ugh !
It's the end of the world as we know it....................
...and I feel fine knowing that the 7 is going to have some of the IRT's most reliable subway cars running there. You can't go wrong with an R62A!
I agree also!
Seeing as the R-62A's are gonna rule the 7 line soon,and seeing this sign on a R-62A the other day when they had the 5 running one train only between Dyre and E180St,will they change the 7 Flushing express to the 11 train? and the same goes with using those other extra signs that are available,the 10,12,13 and 14 signs.i would really love to see those trains run.it'd be and feel exciting.
You got that right! You see, I'm not the only person around here who thinks thr R62A are a great addition to the 7 line.
wow, think of it:
Main Street Flushing Station
(7) (11)
p.s. no relation to the 7-11 conveniance store chain
But wouldn't it be great if you could get a big gulp on the platform?
if it fits the bill, why not? ive seen many shops underground EX: 42 st. port authority mezzanine level
--jonathan c
7 and 11 are also craps in Las Vegas. Hmmm. :)
heh, a casino in main street.....more $$ for them, less for us, lol
jonathan c
I'm not yet unconvinced that all those spiffy animated side signs won't eventually display KENO for the geese to play ... they're putting Video slots into the Saratoga race track, why not on the (Q) ???
it'll be a while since we see animated signs on the 7...sniff...poor geeses
Heh. Then they'll have to mount slot machines by the doors then. I can see it now - 3 lemons in a row and you get indication. :)
mmmmm.....lemons.......
Will you two just please stay on the subject that the post is titled? this is just ridiculous to be honest.
fine then, sorry
And if you get three 7s, then what?
NYS Looto is already playing that game. You get 7 brothers singing at ya and you wake up to find out that it's 7am and it's already 77 degrees. Never a happy forecast in the summer if it's already 77 at 7am. :)
I know. I remember it well. The low humidity we have in Colorado can spoil you after a while.
I've always wondered what the reaction of regular commuters would be like when they would get on the R62A 's for the first time on the 7. Do you guys have any opinions on this?
I really don't think it would make any kind of difference to the average passenger. They'd get on a flat car if a work train stopped in a station!
Funny. lol!
Bill from maspeth is serious! I have been on many a station platform when a work train comes in and stops and yes- I have actually seen people try to board- especially the R127/R134 (The R62 lookalike work motors.)
Since then, anytime a work train or light train comes into a station and customers are waiting I will announce "no passengers on the local track (or express track). This train is not in service."
Ooh, my mistake! I must have misread and thought Bill was talking about flat workcars (do they even exist?). My apologies. Besides, those cars do really look like R62A's.
Flatcars also exist and I have seen customers try to board anything that stops- be it yellow, red, silver, etc.
>>Flatcars also exist and I have seen customers try to board anything that stops- be it yellow, red, silver, etc.<<
That's because they're impatient. They're in such a rush they'd probably board the garbage train. Only in New York !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I once transferred an LK Comstock project train from Corona Yard to 36st Street Yard, flagging two flats and a rider car. At 57/7, we were brought in on 3 track to allow a local to runaround, then proceeded to City Hall where we were radioed to stop at City Hall by the dispatcher at City Hall Tower. 7 passengers were pissed off they missed the 10'oclock ferry to Staten Island when they were bounced from the rider car. They didn't bitch that 2 locals went by while we sat for the lineup at Canal St.
Good news for all those wanting to simplify maintenance at Corona Yard - or rather, to maintain the high efficiency they already have by not mixing car types.
NYC Transit has the toughest maintenance task in the world: multiple car types and generations, modifications etc. London Underground has some of that problem, too.
How many different car types serve CTA in Chicago?
In contrast: SEPTA's 69th Street yard took care of only Budd M-3's, and when they departed, the Adtranz M4 arrived. Only one type. (Of course, I am not counting the Norristown line). The Broad Street line's facility only takes care of Kawasaki cars of the same vintage. In Boston, only the folks responsible for the Red Line take care of two car types (unless MBTA has managed to order enough additional Bombardiers to retire the Pullman-Standard fleet). Washington Metrorail folks take care of Rohr Breda and CAF cars, but engineering and component-wise, are they not very, very similar? BART has only one type of rail car. Ditto for Miami (not counting the people-mover).
In Chicago, you have 2200s, 2400s, 2600s, and 3200s. The 2200s are the only cars left with blinker doors. Although they almost always have at least one set of 2400s or 2600s in the same train, I once saw a solid 8-car train of 2200s heading out of O'Hare.
Over the weekend I finally got my design portfolio updated and printed (it looks beautiful!), and I sent it along with a resume and cover letter to an architecture firm in Philly that specializes in transportation design among other things. They've done a lot of good quality work for Amtrak, SEPTA, and other agencies, and it looks like the firm would be a great fit for me. The open position might be slightly over my head, but who knows... Maybe they'll be willing to take a chance and move me out there.
Wish me luck!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Cool! Here's hoping, buddy ... and Philly has rail service that probably won't be going away. ChiTown looks like a smoking crater if congrefs gets its way.
Cool! Here's hoping, buddy ...
Thanks, I'll need it...
... and Philly has rail service that probably won't be going away. ChiTown looks like a smoking crater if congrefs gets its way.
Exactly the fate Chicago deserves if it lets this happen without even a wimper. Sure, all of Amtrak is barely a drop in the bucket compared to the number of people who use O'Hare and Midway each day. But Chicago was built by the railroads, has been the national railroad hub since trains have been around, and has the potential to become an even greater railroad hub if more progressive-minded people had their say. It's bad enough that Chicago may cease being the passenger railroad hub of the nation for the first time in its history, but it's just plain sickening that it could happen with the full encouragement of the region's most influential newspaper, and with barely a peep from City Hall.
Some on this board have argued that Chicago has lost its luster as a world-class city, and I've always been the first to defend my adopted hometown in the past. But when stuff like this happens, I can't help but wonder if the naysayers are right.
Chicago still has incredible potential to become a truly world-class city -- possibly more potential than any other city -- but the problem we have is that this city is being run by small-minded people with small ideas who only want to keep this city as small and simple as possible. I think Chicago deserves better than that, but by the looks of things, I think these people will continue to remain in power for a very long time. Where is the outrage???
-- David
Chicago, IL
I agree with your assement of Chicago, as a New Yorker who has been to Chicago a few time (maybe 3), I always had a very good time and felt Chicago, thought somewhat small compared to NY and LA, was a world class city. It has just about anything anyone could want, where many smaller cities have a feeling of being closed after business hours (St. Louis for one).
Piggo
"Chicago still has incredible potential to become a truly world-class city -- possibly more potential than any other city -- but the problem we have is that this city is being run by small-minded people with small ideas who only want to keep this city as small and simple as possible."
For curiosity, other than:
(1) the aforementioned apparent apathy about Amtrak's future -- which I pointed out in a letter that was printed in the Sun-Times several months ago;
(2) the Mayor's inexplicable hatred of Meigs Field; and
(3) Hizzoner's almost neo-Prohibitionist support for neighborhood activists voting precincts "dry", with little distinction between neighborhoods cleaning up by getting rid of a liquor store or bar that's a haven for crime and NIMBY ex-suburbanites who want to get rid of decades-old neighborhood institutions because they want complete peace and quiet;
what evidence or examples do you cite to for this assertion? IMHO, Daley and most of the city government and related apparatuses (CTA, Pier & Exposition, etc.) have done a lot of things, big and small, to maintain and expand on Chicago's status as a world city, to attract both businesses and visitors to the city. I know there are a few oddballs like Ald. Burt "Abominable No-man" Natarus of horse-diaper and no-parasailing infamy, but they seem IMHO to be the exception and not the rule.
A few other examples, in addition to the ones you mention:
(And I'd hardly consider Burton Natarus to be an isolated oddball, since his ward includes the Loop and the touristy areas of River North, and he's powerful ally of Daley. His asinine ordinances impact a lot of people.)
1) The city's continuing lukewarm support for public transit expansion. Sure, there's been progress, but with the exception of the new Orange Line, most of the improvements being made are merely improvements to existing facilities rather than any serious expansions. And most of these improvements are merely catching up for decades of neglect.
2) The way the destruction of Soldier Field has been shoved down our throats despite overwhelming public opposition, and several far more sensible alternatives. Hizzoner claims that lawsuits by preservation groups have no merit because the project has already advanced too far, ignoring the fact that it advanced so far so fast only because every single oversight body was packed with his cronies and the project was rammed through without any serious debate. The wrecking balls were swinging literally minutes after the Bears-Eagles playoff game ended last month. (If only our politicians could crush NIMBY opposition so brutally when it came to transit projects.)
3) The continuing transformation, at Hizzoner's bequest, of this city into a tacky theme park for yuppie suburbanites. Daley seems to be hell-bent on making this city into a santized Main Street Disneyland so that it looks more attractive for people who hate real cities. Enough flower pots and wrought iron, already: This is Chicago, not Boston, Venice, or Paris.
4) The continuing rape and plunder of Chicago's large and small architectural treasures, both downtown and in the neighborhoods, so that they can be replaced by cheaply-built cookie-cutter designs in order to line the pockets of greedy developers with inside political connections. Chicago is looking more and more like Houston or Atlanta each day.
5) While the city has embarked on some impressive infrastructure projects such as the Museum Campus, Navy Pier, McCormick Place, and Milleneum Park, they cater mostly to tourists and suburbanites, while many neighborhoods continue to crumble. O'Hare expansion is the notable exception, but that should have been done 20 years ago, Suburban O'Hare Commission be damned.
6) The politically-motivated ousting of schools chief Paul Vallas, an effective reformer appointed by Dale who trnasformed Chicago's schools from one of the nation's worst to a model of reform, who was then stabbed in the back by Daley because he no longer served any political purpose to Daley.
7) Block 37 in the heart of the Loop has been sitting empty for well over a decade after several landmark buildings had been destroyed to make it that way. After years of fits and starts, the city reveals its bold new design for the prominent site: A bland, prefabricated box that was plunked straight from Schaumburg. Mercifully, a lot of wailng and gnashing of teeth from the Tribune killed the project.
I could go on, but you get the idea... Don't get me wrong, I still love Chicago and these are mainly lover's quarrels, and every city has its annoying character traits, but these things combined along with a few others I didn't go into are starting to wear thin.
Maybe a few years in Philly will be good for me... After a couple rotten years here, a change of scenery will probably do me some good, and give me a chance to sort out what I want to do with myself and where I want to live. New York is looking better and better to me (I've developed a whole new appreciation for NYC since 9/11), or I may decide once and for all that Chicago is home. Or I may even decide to stay put in Philly once I'm done with school... Who knows.
-- David
Chicago, IL
New York is looking better and better to me..., or I may decide once and for all that Chicago is home. Or I may even decide to stay put
in Philly once I'm done with school... Who knows.
Heck, you might even decide that Knightdale isn't too bad either :-) Raleigh could use a good architect or two.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heck, you might even decide that Knightdale isn't too bad either :-) Raleigh could use a good architect or two.
Yak! All my other problems with Raleigh aside, that would be a little too close to my parents for comfort. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>>The continuing transformation, at Hizzoner's bequest, of this city into a tacky theme park for yuppie
suburbanites. Daley seems to be hell-bent on making this city into a santized Main Street Disneyland
so that it looks more attractive for people who hate real cities. Enough flower pots and wrought iron,
already: This is Chicago, not Boston, Venice, or Paris. <<<
It's happening everywhere. I went to Boston for a few days after Christmas. I was aghast to find the ground floor of Faneuil Hall--one of the cribs of US liberty--converted into a tourist mall, with cheap T shirts and other crap. I made a quick pilgrimage to the upper floors--happily untouched--and removed myself from the premises.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(where the T shirts and mugs are tastefully advertised)
It's happening everywhere. I went to Boston for a few days after Christmas. I was aghast to find the ground floor of Faneuil Hall--one of the cribs of US liberty--converted into a tourist mall, with cheap T shirts and other crap. I made a quick pilgrimage to the upper floors--happily untouched--and removed myself from the premises.
I may be wrong, but as far as I know Faneuil Hall's been that way for many years.
I feel for you. The Georiga Legislature here really knows how to fuck up shit in Atlanta. They all can go to hell. I'll even offer to drive the bus there.
I haven't been in Chicago (except to change planes at ORD) in over 20 years, but it always seemed like a sophisticated, bustling city to me. And it's certainly a place where things get one, in marked contrast to New York. You'd never see a Windy City equivalent of the Second Avenue subway or Manhattan Bridge debacles.
Perhaps you haven't heard of about Millenium Park...
The "things get done" thing is a myth.
>>>>Chicago still has incredible potential to become a truly world-class city -- possibly more potential than
any other city -<<<
My singular impression from my visit last summer is what Chicago has been able to do with its waterfront, with world class parks and museums, and a good beach as well. In NYC the waterfront will always be the provice of rich condos, NIMBYs, and rotting piers which no one does anything about. What other town has as much waterfront and yet has so little to show for it?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Good luck, sounds like something I would like to do. My goal is to eventually engineer transportation systems like you want to design. I'm working on roads right now, but mass transit is where I want to end up.
The very best of luck to you my friend !
Mr rt__:^)
Good luck to you!
Best of luck. I look forward to visiting you in Philly.
Eric D. Smith
Good luck on all of your future endeavors and I welcome you to my part of town.
Ms.SEPTA :-)
Best of luck.
....and more.
Peace,
ANDEE
David -
Best of luck. I hope that this works out for you.
We'll miss you here in Chicago, which is also my adopted home town (I count myself among those who refer to New York as "The Old Country"). If you do wind up in Philly, I can't wait for you to organize a SubTalk field trip there -- the one here in Chicago list September was really great!
-- Ed Sachs
Good luck getting the job...it would mean I would have two friends in Philly, but I would be on my own pretty much on my next trip to Chicago.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin -
There are still some SubTalkers here the Windy City. Feel free to contact me next time you plan to be here.
-- Ed Sachs
Here are my 2004 post Manhattan Bridge subway routing plan
weekdays
A- current route
B- West End, 4th ave. express, Manny B, 6th avenue express, CPW local to 168th street (I prefer 168th but could be BPB)
C- current route except to BPB/145th (or could keep current route)
D- pre July/01 route
E- current route
F- current route
G- current route
J- current route
L- current route
M- current route
N- Sea Beach, 4th ave. express, Manny B, Broadway Express to 42nd, then local to Astoria
Q- Brighton Express, Manny B., Broadway Express to 57th, 63rd street tunnel, QB express to 179th
R- current route
V- Coney Island, Culver line, 6th avenue local, 53rd, QB local (current route extended to Coney Island)
W- Astoria to Whitehall local
By extending the V to Coney Island supplementing F service on the Culver line, we can reduce the number of F trains enough to allow the Q to join the F as an express in Queens.
I left the M in Brooklyn instead of the W because one Nassau Street/Brooklyn option is good, especially because two trains are not needed to connect Brooklyn, lower manhattan, and midtown (people going from Brooklyn to midtown would take the B, D, N or Q).
Weekend-
A- current route
B- current route (hopefully, the MTA may make this route Weekday only to save money)
C- current route
D- current route
E- current route
F- current route
G- current route (to 71st street)
J- current route
L- current route
M- current route
N- same route as weekdays
Q- 57th/7th to Brighton via Brightoin express (hopefully, MTA may make this train weekday only to save money)
R- current route (but increase service because it will be only local on 4th ave., broadway, and only QB local to Manhattan)
No V or W trains.
F takes its current, more prominent role on Weekends becuase of lack of V in Brooklyn and Manhattan and lack of Q in Queens.
A Train should be split to 3 Letters A 207-Far Rockaway H-Rockaway Pk K-Lefferts, so people know from the front and back where the train ias going
Forget the Q going to 179 Street. As i stated already on Sub Talk there just is no capacity available on the Queens Blvd Express. To add the Q it will come at the expense of the E or F lines.
The Q to 179th Street is a dead issue
Thank You
Do they plan to use the Broadway connection to 63rd St for 2 Ave service, if and when it ever comes? What is the reason Bway is connceted to it otherwise? Has the Bway-63 Connection ever been used for revenue service since 1989 when it opened, I only remember the Q using the 63rd Connection as a 6 Ave train at the beginning.
"Do they plan to use the Broadway connection to 63rd St for 2 Ave service, if and when it ever comes?"
That's the initial "stubway": 125th St down to 63rd and then across and essentially becoming a Q train.
"Has the Bway-63 Connection ever been used for revenue service since 1989 when it opened?"
It's been used for shuttles from 34th & 6th or 57th & 7th to 21 St Queensbridge for numerous GOs when they didn't feel like running a 6th Ave train to Queensbridge.
I specifically gave a way to cut into the F train to allow the Q to run as a third QB express, that was why I extended the V down the Culver Line weekdays. It allows for less F service.
If the B only runs weekdays post-2004, what will run on the West End line?
I would hope this doesn't happen, but they could do with the B what they're doing on weekends with the W now.
You have a good plan. It's shares similarities with my own. The one major difference is that you would still have the A running to three destinations. Still, your plan is a good one.
In my plan I hadn't even thought about changing the A route. I guess, however, that the C could be extended to Lefferts with the A continuing to Far Rockaway.
Also, I was thinking maybe it would be better to scrap my W train, and just increase service on the N and R, so that both the N and R have more frequent service.
Tht sounds about right. Barfcan the W and extend service on the N. And get the hell over the Manhattan Bridge and back to Stillwell Avenue. Then I'll be pleased and you won;t have to read my diatribes on the subject any longer.
Oh, shut up, "#4 Sea Beach Fred". My station was 86th/4th. I know the long slow trip to Manhattan. Invert the Sea Beach N express to the local, and R local to the express was my neighborhood preference.
It's where I heard, going up the steps with a rush-hour crowd, 'Oh, good, it's not raining still' (this is real NY English).
It's where I finally got to exit out of the rear of the station because of the gas explosion on 86th between 5th and 4th. And there were about 50 emergency vehicles everywhere that day (I had to walk around effin block, all the way to 5th Av to get myself to the police line, on 87th behind Birnbaum/Century21). This was unlike the latter day when we experienced the hydrant approximately by the former veggie stand and just down the street from the former Getty station and Mannie-Hannie when FDNY sent lots of good water down the street (the day Bay Ridge had a public-health boil-your-water order).
Gelston Avenue was my building. Not the Liberty. Dr. Ludwig (yes, Beethoven's first name -- he's Italian) Licciardi, around the corner, as he built that palace of his, around the corner, on 90th and 5th, caught my eye (my kithen window watched that building's arousal). Yes, I worked for him over on 10th Ave, before the sake of his architecturally lovelieness. Dr. Licciardi's mother is a delightful woman. His wife (he may be divorced now) was Ms. Herder; she was into muscles, as was he, and their personal trainer etc. Go there. Ask the evil-mouthed-TammyAnn about this.
Barfcan the N. I wanna go to Canal St. express after 59th.
Nice originality. That should get Fred's dander up, if he ever gets through reading all of it. Er...a building's arousal? Must have been a tower.
Nope, I laughed at it. I get told to shut up all the time by my wife when I go off on tangents, and tell others to button their lip and so I'm not immune. It was kind of fun, to tell you the truth.
Fred, you're a good sport. That's why I like you. A lot.
Hey Q, if you can't laugh at yourself you are a pretty said character. It's all in good fun so why not enjoy it. Watch when Bob and I go at it. It's worth the price of admission.
You can say that again!
Does Linda roll her eyes when you start talking about the Sea Beach?:-) Has she ever ridden on an N train with you? Just curious.
Hey Steve, the only time my Linda was in New York was in the summer of 1958 when her brother Bill, then a naval officer, came in on the submarine Nautalis. They went out to Coney Island on the subway, but she can't remember what train she took and what stops there were, or whether it was elevated or a cut. Can you believe that? Boy does that tick me off. It could be she was the last in our family to ride on the #4BMT but she has no clue what train it was. Since she could care less I hope it was the Brighton. It would serve her right.
That's OK. My aunt doesn't remember what train she took (Lo-Vs or R units) to the Battery while in New York in 1959. She does remember going around South Ferry Loop at least twice because she was in the rear of the train and a conductor finally explained to her that you had to be in the first five cars in order to get off.
Oh El Marko, you're in worst shape than I am. The 4th Avenue Local as an express? Don't make me laugh or choke. Even the TA would be guffawing at that. Sorry for your troubles, but as you've been reading I have troubles of my own where my fabulous Sea Beach is concerned. I have a suggestion---MOVE! Well, maybe that is a reach, but here is a better suggestion. Adjust to it.
Looking at the track maps, I saw that there is a track map that allows the 2 to switch from the local to the express between 34th and 42nd (this works both uptown and downtown). I understand that because of 9/11 the 2 must run local along with the 1 south of 34th street to allow the 3 to terminate at 14th. But why can't it switch to the express and run express like it used to north of 42nd. This would improve the commute for Bronx customers while cutting down on the route's extremely long travel time (it has to make the same switch north of 96th street anyway).
Sorry, the title should read "why not run", not "why nut run"
Simple, they need two local services all the way. Just the 1 on the local track isn't enough, if they had the 9 it would work, but you can't run the 9 because where would it end in terms of Lower Manhattan/Brooklyn? Can't turn at Chambers and I don't think the 1/2/9 will fit through the tube.
I don't think that is correct. The 9 didn't go away, it just got renamed the 1. The 9 was just a gimick to make it seem like there was some semblence of express service on the 1 line in northern manhattan and the bronx. The same number of trains run as 1's as used to run as 1 plus 9's
Piggo
Amen ... and the "Broadway thru express" was a cruel joke even when it WAS an express ... skip a bunch of stations in the Bronx and then CRAWL all the way to 96th where you could get a REAL express. :)
That was way before my time, but (as someone from 238 street) I wouldn't mind trying it, to get me to 168 where I could get the A, another real express (sort of).
Piggo
Heh. Well, I lived on 230th and the bus to 207th often beat the IRT. No need to go up to 242 for a seat either. :)
So you took the bus to 207 for a seat on the A at 207? Good move, but I at times have tried to take the Bx9 bus to Kingsbridge Rd (not to be confussed with Kingsbridge Ave - where I live) stop on the 4, since I worked literaly right above the 59 St stop on the Lex it makes for less shlepping than from 1 to A at 168, then again from A to either the N/R/W or M57 bus. But the Bx9 can be real slow, even at 5:45 in the morning. One day, I was off from work and needed to go to the Yankee Stadium area, the bus ride was over 40 mintues at 2PM. In the early AM it is at least 15-20 minutes. So.... whatever you feel is fastes, I've lived here for about a year now and have not really found anyting that works too great. It takes me about an hour to get to work anyway I try it.
Yep, Kingsbridge AVE here too ... mind ya, this was between 195 and 1969 - moved to Webster Avenue and called the third avenue EL home after that. But I *despised* the Broadway local ... slower than whale sheet in an iceflow often with track fires, piled up trains north of 96th, you name it. The A train once MOVED.
Life got faster though when I lived near the D ... always loved that train. Ran and ran and ran ...
I still for the life of me can't figure out why the line goes from 3 tracks, to two tracks, to three again. At least with a thru center track one could have some semblance of express service, at least in one direction.
Anyway, this brings up another point.
Why not run the 2 from the Bx, express on Broadway to turn at 14th, with the 3 doing local service from Lenox Terminal to New Lots, and the 1 going from VCP, Broadway local, and then to Flatbush? (Essentially you switch the 2 and 3 around, with the 2 terminating at 14th and the 1 serving the 2's line in Brooklyn, and the 3 running its usual route but local from 96 to Chambers). That way Bronx riders get an express ride to 14th street (the 3 doesn't go into the Bx, after all). Not much of a difference, but this forum's here for nitpicking :-)
I might guess it is a matter of cars. The 1 and 3 fleet were combined to provide the current service mix, often Livonia cars are coupled to 240 Street cars. The 1 and 3 run R-62a's, the 2 runs Redbirds and R142 (not R142a's I think). This service pattern seem to be more bases on cars. I agree with your premise, but I dont' think it was feasible.
Piggo
The reason why they don't turn the 2 at 14th is that it's not a real terminal. Only one track can be used at a time to turn trains around. The 2 has too many tph.
It's a shame there are only two tracks for a section of the line. If there were three tracks all the way from 96 to Van Cortlandt, it would be a prime candidate for peak direction express service, al;l day. They probably built the two track section to save money, but it really was foolish. It makes the three track section on the northern end totally worthless.
When the IRt was built up that way, there were practical realities ... it cost way too much to deep bore TWO tracks ... August Belmont wasn't INSANE ... he wanted the pig built but back then, there were a NUMBEr of things that were way different about the IRT that allowed it to work - trains following INSIDE the "moving block" a carlength behind the train ahead, "packers" who made SURE no morons held the doors, and a schedule that was as tight as a 15 year old's ... "handle" ...
Then there's today's "SLOAPP" ... so much that made it work was deemed "unfriendly to the coddled masses" and thus it doesn't work anymore. Still would cost a sheepload to bore a third hole ...
Did they ever run any kind of express service on the northern end of the 1 line? It seems to be overkill to even have built the northern end as three tracks, knowing that the two track section ever becoming three tracks was very unlikely.
Yes indeed ... when a train left Van Cortlandt Park, next stop was DYCKMAN ... next 181, 168, 145, 137, 96 ... known as the "Broadway THRU EXP" and it was every bit as much real as this board. That third track got USED ... but over time, and replacement with the redbirds, didn't work out so well ...
I still for the life of me can't figure out why the line goes from 3 tracks, to two tracks, to three again. At least with a thru center track one could have some semblance of express service, at least in one direction.
I agree completely (I posted the same thing not knowing you posted it too) The two track section makes the three track section on the northern end totally worthless.
The "three track section" hasn't been used in YEARS ... for the same reasons I tossed out in another thread ... no IRT bulls to beat the CRAP out of anyone who held doors or otherwise held up the railroad ... back int he 40's and 50's, "customers" got their BUTTS KICKED by transit employees ... now you live with the results of a "kinder, gentler MTA" ... and the trains are late.
Blame it on Washington Heights -- when they built the original IRT line, they could do cut-and-cover from City Hall to 155th St., where it was easy to dig out the street to four-track (or three-track) widths. But from 155th to Dykman, they had to tunnel, which was far more difficult (and dangerous, as it turned out) than just ripping the lid off the street. So Mr. Parsons, et al., opted for a two-track tunnel instead of a three tracker through that area (given the lack of a crash wall or any kind of center support on the tunnel today, building the arch big enough to handle a three-track tunnel back in 1904 with no center support really would have been an engineering feat).
One reason may be because you really do need two local services and the 9 has been sidetracked because there's no room for them to terminate also. So until the 9 can be brought back, the 2 will have to run with the 1.
I mentioned this in another thread, the 9 was not a line per se. Simply 1/2 of the 1's were signed up as 9's for the idiotic skip stop. The 9 has not gone away, they are just being run as 1's. The trains per hour on the 1 route (above 96) is about the same as it was before the 9/11 changes. That is, above 96 st today you get the same number of 1 trains per hour as you preciously got 1's plus 9's. 9's were simply 1's that had been renumber for skip stop (a disaster that anyone who lives or travels to a skip stopped station will agree with). A few 1's used to short turn at 137, but the short turn 1's did not equal in number the 9's that ran pre 9/11.
Piggo
Why nut give more reasoning?
My final decision for Q Service in 2004 will be A, WHY?
1. There is absolutely no need to have 2 Brighton Services running along 6th Ave Line.
2. To send Q back to 6th Ave, Q must run via 63rd. As a result of that, the TA must send the F back to its orignal route via 53rd Street and to get rid of the V or to cut G back to Court Sq at all time (which Noble Street people won't like it). Therefore I doubt that TA won't consider that changes for very long time after they already made their final decision for QB LINE.
3. Broadway need an 2 express service. W is one of them
As far as Election Q Service in 2004 are concerned. So far 94% of the voter chose A and only 1% of voter chose B. 5% became undecided because rest of the subtalker didn't cast their vote such as Fred, Train Dude, American Pig, and others
[1. There is absolutely no need to have 2 Brighton Services running along 6th Ave Line.]
Why not? I like the idea of keeping outer-borough corridor services together in Manhattan (e.g. all Brighton trains on Broadway or on 6th Avenue) in order to avoid diluting the ridership.
- - - - -
[2. To send Q back to 6th Ave, Q must run via 63rd. As a result of that, the TA must send the F back to its orignal route via 53rd Street and to get rid of the V or to cut G back to Court Sq at all time (which Noble Street people won't like it).]
Not necessarily. The Q could easily run up Central Park West. (Of course, that would probably mean keeping West End linked to Broadway.)
- - - - -
[3. Broadway need an 2 express service. W is one of them.]
The N could be the other, with local service provided by a more frequent R.
- - - - -
[As far as Election Q Service in 2004 are concerned. So far 94% of the voter chose A and only 1% of voter chose B. 5% became undecided because rest of the subtalker didn't cast their vote such as Fred, Train Dude, American Pig, and others.]
I also remain undecided. Anyway, whatever is ultimately implemented will probably be based on total ridership on all affected lines, rather than the votes of a few railfans.
OK ... I usually ignore ANY message with "if I were King of the BMT, I'd make the trains run in circles around my house using all available trackage plus the three new lines I'll need to build to close the loop around my house" ... sorry, but routing is done by people who are usually pretty good at it (I'll ignore the G train for now) based on ridership patterns or in the absence of that, "where can we send it without stopping ALL the trains" ...
If *I* were king of the BMT, I'd restore the D express to its original routing, as an express. Q trains could also do the Express thing but perhaps they might run as the old "QB" rush hours only. Throw something else in as a local and there you are. Pretty much everything about the "pre-W" routing was just fine for service patterns just the way it was. I *do* however defer to those who actually get paid to study and implement all this - they did pretty good in the past and all the current madness is because an entire corridor is closed owing to da bridge. When it reopens, put things back the way they were. It'll minimize confusion and you can take the train to where you need to go. Some need to go up Broadway, others need 6th Avenue. Give 'em both and adjust the schedule to make it work.
But my silence on any of these "routing" things is intentional and personal. I dont' sweat those things. Tell me where my north and south terminal is and the schedule and if I don't like it, I'll pick another line. Trains and loading are usually done on a basis of ridership. The TA tries out various things (and with the bridge closed and the need to divert anyway) they're WATCHING how the current routes go and will adjust routings when the bridge comes back based on how ridership has changed today. I'm sure the other non-voters are generally of the same mind - like Native Americans, walking away is a vote also. :)
But bring back my D train, send the N train to Bayonne and well, I'm done. Heh.
And bring back the oldtimers, too.:-)
Nah, I'd HATE to see what they'd be like these days without the care of some extremely WONDERFUL PEOPLE at a handful of museums who love them as much as I do ... the TA, feh ... burn'em ... look what the redbirds got to look like and the R1/9's had 30 years on those. Gack.
Plus the idea of neutered R-1/9s doesn't sit well with me.
Since becoming involved with this site, I've read many entries by TA employees and have observed that they have a lingo all their own. While I can piece together some of what is being said, including various technical terms and abbreviations, there are certain terms I'm not sure about and could use help translating.
Examples of the latter:
1) "Foamers" - A perjorative term meaning transit buffs who look out the front window at the tracks during their trips. Correct?
2) "Sheep" - Another pejorative term for passengers who are perceived by Transit personnel as being either unable or unwilling to understand instructions by train crews.
3) "Skells" - I have no idea what these are.
There are more such terms. Can anyone out there give me a sort of Transit Employee glossary of terms used by employees at this site?
Thank you very much.
I'm pretty sure Skells is more from police lingo (or at least police shows) meaning low lifes or how the police precieve anyone they even remotely feel may have at any time in history broken a law. I'll stop here before I get into my feelings about police (even the liberal members of the board don't seem to share my opinions here).
Piggo
It is a police term, local to NYC I believe. It it short for "skeleton," which is what addicts/junkies tended to look like after being hooked on drugs for a long time. "Mope" is another similar term, used to describe a motley looking criminal.
It is a police term, local to NYC I believe. It it short for "skeleton," which is what addicts/junkies tended to look like after being hooked on drugs for a long time. "Mope" is another similar term, used to describe a motley looking criminal.
"Mope" is not New York-specific. Almost 10 years ago, I worked as a courthouse clerk in Connecticut and often assisted a criminal-courts judge who had been a prosecutor for several years. "Mope" was his term of choice, which he used to describe about 80% of the felony defendants in his courtroom. He termed 10% "citizens," in other words ordinary decent folks who had gotten themselves into bad situations and would be very unlikely ever to transgress again, while the remaining 10% were "predators," which is self-explanatory.
That is a very very sad commentary on the mind set of a judge, the one person in a court who is suppose to be unbiased and assure a fair hearing. I guess the presumption of innocence for the 90% on "non-citizens" was not too strong!
its a very 80s police term, as i was told by some PO friends of mine.
"Foamer" is a perjorative term for any railfan. This alludes to the the perception, mostly by train crews and managers -- but it has slipped into the mainstream somewhat, that people like us, who happen to like all things trains, "foam at the mouth" at the sight of one.
The fist time I heard "sheep" was on this board, when Selkirk unleashed a diatribe about why he's glad to be upstate (where they tease you about new rail services, only to abandon the idea before it has a chance to gel), away from all of us MTA customers ("sheep") down here who would have paid his salary as a transit employee and expected a modicum of decent customer service. :O)
Another perjorative you may hear is one of my favorites: "FeRN", which is an anacronym for "F***in' Rail Nut."
...I know it's not anacronym but acronym! - typo
Well, thanks for the mention, love me, hate me, read me. Heh. The "Foamer" thing describes PARTICULARLY looney railfans ... us folks who have done the cab thing never mind company and in fact, a RESPECTFUL railfan who can SHUT UP when they know we've got business to take care of is actually a WELCOME distraction on an otherwise boring back and forth, same old route, same old signals, same old congestion, same old rot outside a station. "Foamers" however don't know when to shut up, don't have any sense that they're INTERFERING with my job, and are distracting me to the point where I could run a signal, miss my stop, etc ... "Foamers" are those obnoxious A$$HOLES that are the reason why we're not allowed sidearms in the cab. BIG DIFFERENCE.
As to "geese" same story. "Geese" are people who squawk over things that nobody has any control over, whine incessantly and actually tend to grab your arm as you're walking the train to get to a stuck door to fix it and insist that you stop, look, and listen to their tirades. Meanwhile as the geese continue to honk, the door remains broken, the train continues to sit and once one "geese" starts honking, within minutes the entire CAR is honking at you. Basically here, don't yell at ME, grab some MTA neck fer krissakes. I didn't break the door, I didn't defer maintenance and if you leave me ALONE, I can fix it.
I've only presented the viewpoints I have in order to attempt to show the OTHER SIDE of the coin ... now if a "customer" wants a proper joeblob, lemme ASSURE you, $1.50 ain't enough fare. Now whip out a $50 (which is the going rate) and I'll see what I can do. :)
$50 for a joeblob? I can get one for $30 two blocks from where I live!!! Then again, NYC is more expensive :-)
As our Paturkey is fond of saying, (and I quote) "New York is a high cost state." Uh-huh. Now GET ON YOUR KNEES! :)
>>>>Well, thanks for the mention, love me, hate me, read me. Heh. The "Foamer" thing describes PARTICULARLY looney railfans ... us folks who have done the cab thing never mind company and in fact, a RESPECTFUL railfan who can SHUT UP when they know we've got business to take care of is actually a WELCOME distraction on an otherwise boring back and forth, same old route, same old signals, same old congestion, same old rot outside a station. "Foamers" however don't know when to shut up, don't have any sense that they're INTERFERING with my job, and are distracting me to the point where I could run a signal, miss my stop, etc ... "Foamers" are those obnoxious A$$HOLES that are the reason why we're not allowed sidearms in the cab. BIG DIFFERENCE. <<<
LOVE IT what an apt description....ROTFLMFAO
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh ... ben 30+ years, but I've had people outside my cab that I could not get past the urge to fold, spindle and mutilate and not necessarily in that order. :)
"Foamers" are different from the peaceful "railfan" ... "foamers" run their mouths, emit strange odors and generally screw up a train operator trying to do their job. Extra foamer points for shoving little kids away from the foamer glass so THEY (actual ADULTS) can steal the best "spot" at the glass ... know everything, or so they THINK.
"Geese" ... "customers" who also interfere with operations by incessant whining and complaining, thinking that they are the ONLY person on the train who is worthy of handholding and attention, complaining about everything, asking questions that stop crews from solving the problem and getting the train moving. (also known as "whiners") ...
"Skels" ... people who look like they're within seconds of dying - typically describes homeless people who are within inches of cashing in their metrocard for the last ride. This one is one that I never believed in, but that's what it is ...
While I may be a bit more sensitive to the condition than others, I also worked for the "system" ... the "railfan experience" when you're a line item number with the Holy Ronan empire is a lot more crude than it is for those who can just say fook this, I'll take the next train. We can't step off ...
>>>"Foamers" are different from the peaceful "railfan" ... "foamers" run their mouths, emit strange odors and generally screw up a train operator trying to do their job. Extra foamer points for shoving little kids away from the foamer glass so THEY (actual ADULTS) can steal the best "spot" at the glass ... know everything, or so they THINK. <<<
Excellent description...Thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
Short little story behind MY understanding of the distinction. When I was a wee foamer, I got slapped around by a few motormen on the A train who were willing to let me into the cab starting at age 8. They'd let me pull the handles and apply, hold down the (insanely heavy for a kid) controller and yank it back to "warp 9" and help "operate" the train ... there were several (and NO, they were NOT pervs) who actually enjoyed the company of a wild-eyed kid and showed me "how to work this thing" as a kid.
At the same time, when there was reds and yellers ahead, they'd tell me to shush while they figured out why the ball would be fighting them on a Saturday, working timers and the rest ... one of my buddy's dad was a conductor on the IRT and would let me make the announcements. Bottom line is if you're a TRUE railfan, you don't screw with the attention span of train crews ... and if you RESPECT that space, you can have one HELL of a great time. Well, not anymore - the TA has completely lost its sense of humor and the hallmark of "you're the operator - you're free to your own judgement - screw up and we'll nail you to the hull, but if you use good judgement and have no incident, what me worry? ...
But yeah, that's the difference ... "buffs" are usually cool, "foamers" need the business end of a shoe paddle. 'nuff said.
A good railfan should know when to shut up when he is a guest, whether it is in a rapid transit T/O compartment, or the cab of a diesel or steam engine.
The train crew has a job to do, and your visit is secondary! I always found that the best policy is to speak when spoken to, and not before.
I'm glad to hear the New York term "foamer" is not a description meant to describe all railfans.
Nope ... "foamers" are a special critter, best used as wheel chocks when you have to park it with air down on a grade. :)
Extra foamer points for shoving little kids away from the foamer glass so THEY (actual ADULTS) can steal the best "spot" at the glass ... know everything, or so they THINK.
Well then I'm not a foamer. I always move away from the railfan window if there's a child who wants it.
Wowsers ... sorry so many folks think that "foamer" = "like trains" ... "foamers" are a plague on railroading - often spotted in organized railspotting outings and known to train crews as the reason why cab doors have locks. :)
You're cool ... so is most everyone else here. It's the ones that tell you how to operate that get to suck the big bug. Heh.
>>It's the ones that tell you how to operate that get to suck the big bug. Heh.<<
Oh you mean those honorary motor instructors ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. Uh ... yeah. What I find amusing about this whole thread though and all that's transpired in it is that I generally got along fine with railfans when I was running. Most of them just want the view. A *very* small number ("foamers") really need to go back to the factory for regrooving but in general, I had as much fun shooting the sheet with them as they had with me. Now somehow, I've managed to come across as "shoot them first and ask questions later" ... I really wasn't like that at all. But SOME of them you just wanted to adjust with a shoe paddle. :)
You know, that would be a worthwhile social research project,
to document current and past transit slang. A lot of material
exists on late 19th and early 20th century mainline RR practice,
but little on transit.
P.S.; A "skel" is a non-domiciled individual, usually sleeping
or otherwise zonked out.
THANKYOUVERRRRYMUCH now pleeese do not lean on doors. CI Peter
Does anybody think that some of the earlier innovative subway cars like the Zephyr, Bluebird Special and the R11/R34 would've been successful today? Or are just inventions of a bygone era, doomed to failure?
They were MEANT to be prototypes, and eventually, all prototypes are prone to failure.
Stuart, RLine86Man
The R11/R34 could've made it. It was overhauled once in the mid-sixties and shortly thereafter, it failed again. The MTA could've made further modifications to allow that one trainset to last a while longer. But since the R32's were new at the time, and there are some similarites between a R32 and a R34 car, I wonder if the R34 was a testing ground for the R32 fleet.
I believe that the AHRRRRR-Thirtay-floor was a prototwype for the AHRRRR-Thrtay-ate....
Stuart, RLine86Man
No, The R-11 was the testing ground for the R-32. The R-34 contract was merely a GOH for the R-11, IMHO.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-11s were intended to be used on the 2nd Ave. line. There was a 400-car order on the drawing boards for production model units, but it never came to fruition.
Juuuuuuuuuuust like the 2nd Avenue Subvay........
Stuart D. Guberman
Future Engineer of the Atlantic Coast Railway
(virtual RR for MSTS)
I figured as much.
Although the cars did serve as prototypes. Some of the innovations in these cars were used for future subway cars. The Zephyr was the first stainless steel subway car and thirty plus years later stainless steel became standard for New York City subway cars. Look at the R-110A and the R-110B trainsets. Many ideas were tried on those cars and the fruit of these experiemnts are the R-142s and the R-143s. Although the R-110s were trouble prone, they tested new ideas which are now in use on the latest subway cars. There may be some small problems with the newest subway cars, but many of the kinks with the new technolories were ironed out with the test trains before they were put to use in actual production subway cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Only the first of the BMT Bluebirds (No. 8000) was a prototype. The other 5 were the first of what were to be 50 production models. But then the city bought the BMT and cancelled the remainder of the order. Had the order gone through, the BMT might have been in better shape to handle the extra traffic during WWII.
-- Ed Sachs
I think the R11 cars were a good model car. I believe that if fixed properly could live as long as the R32s becuase of its all stainless steel contruction. Anyone Agree?
I sure do. Perhaps there would've been some extra cars today if that was done.
I think your question doesn't make too much sense. When these
cars were introduced 55-65 years ago, they were state of the
art. Today they'd be obsolete. It's like asking if a model T
Ford would be successful if re-introduced today. Too bad no
bluebirds were saved though.
Read it again. What would be obselete would be the originals. If the cars were upgraded it paved the way for further technological improvements then it would've served its purpose.
I can think of very few car classes that were not the prototype for some major technical advances for the NYCT.
As some examples:
The R-10 was the first to use a motor-generator dynamic brakes and fluorescent lighting
R-40s were the first to use AC
R-42s were the first to use Static converters
R-44/R-46 were the first to use P-wire.
R-46 Current Collectors and Air-Bag springs.
The R-40 was not the first to use AC (if that means Air Conditioning, as I'm guessing it does). The last ten R-38s (4140-4149) came in with air conditioning, as did R-17s 6800-6809 (subsequently removed and replaced with fans). The R-15 that's now in the Transit Museum was retrofitted with air conditioning right before the R-17s came in, but it didn't last long.
David
David, I was talking about innovations that involved more than a few cars. The R-40 was the first large-scale use of AC on NYCT cars (200 cars - if memory serves me correct) .
Of course if you want to talk about small-scale tests we can talk about the Pioneer trucks on the R-32s, the package brakes on the R-42s or the GE brakes and hydraulic brakes on the R-44s.
Not to mention the "choppers" on the R-30s and the "Chicago-style" light fixtures on the R-33s :-)
DAvid
TD, do you happen to remember that Worstinghouse test train of R30s with the Halon Fire Extinguisher activation system inside the group switches? I found a 1989 train TT (8562)in my calendars. A flashing yellow fault light indicated a discharge according to memory.
>>Chicago-style" light fixtures on the R-33s<<
Can anyone explain this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Near as I could tell, the "Chicago-style" fixtures took a different fluorescent tube from then-standard NYCT fixtures. If memory serves, the standard tube at that time was a T-8, and these cars took (the present standard) T-12s, which are fatter.
David
Any T8 will fit and work in any T12 fixture. Most T8 'lumiares' won't have room for the fatter T12 bulbs. CI Peter
Minor point ... some 38's had air conditioning, but only SOME of them. I suspect the experiment was conducted on those. The 40's were the first "whole fleet" with it, but somewhere near half of the 38's came from the factory with A/C ...
The R40s were not the first "whole fleet" with air conditioning. The first 200 R40s (4150-4349) were non-air conditioned cars.
The first "whole fleet" of air conditioned cars was the R42s.
Whoops! Now that you mention it, you're right. Those went into service mostly on the E and F (mostly F) and were unknown in the Bronx at the time. Wasn't until the 42's appeared that I actually rode any of them and that the air conditioning wasn't there only suggested that perhaps it was malfunctioning or turned off.
Sorry for not tracking the cars so tightly, if the handle fit, I could go. That's about all I cared about.
Just 10 R-38s were delivered with air conditioning.
4140 thru 4144 were delivered with trane 10 ton units.
4145 thru 4149 were delivered with Safety 9 ton units.
2 units per car - R22 Refrigerant.
Interesting that the 4144-4145 coupling had two different AC units installed. Wonder if anyone could tell the different between the 10-ton equipment in 4144 and the nine-toner in 4145 on a hot summer day?
I think the unit size was more related to the 'off-the-shelf' units that both manufacturers had to offer. Even during the GOH programs, the Stone Safety were 10 ton units while the Thermoking (Trane) units were 9 ton.
Size isn't everything. Keep in mind that the cars are thermostatically controlled so they should have run at the same temp. The larger units only provide the ability to cool the cars more quickly.
When the BMT-IND 60-footers were GOHd, all of them got two 9-ton units (and were spec'd with 9-ton units) no matter whether they had 9-ton or 10-ton units before, or fans before. Could it be that someone in Car Equipment determined that 20 tons was overkill for 60-footers?
By the way, 1 ton = 12,000 btu, for those who might think we're talking about weight here.
David
You know it's funny I was working in that department when those
decisions were being made and I can't remember why. I think
it had to do with standardization.
P.S., to be more precise, a ton is 12000 btu/hr. Home air
conditioners are commonly rated in "BTUs" (British Thermal
Units) but that is a misnomer. The BTU is a unit of energy,
like the calorie or the Joule. BTU/hr is a unit of power,
i.e. the rate at which the air conditioner can remove heat
energy from the space.
Standardization doesn't seem to be the reason, as the 75-footers have (2) units that are in the neighborhood of 10 tons. The IRT cars' units are (1) 12 tons, at least through R-62A (and beyond as far as I am aware).
David
Supposedly, the R38s with these experimental A/C shared a 600 Volt busline joining the A/C units off the same feeders for AC Only, not the main knife switch. If this is true, did that apply to the 4144/5 set as well.
The 600 volt supply for the AC came off the main trolley lead. It was an in-car supply, however. No 600 volt supplies crossed between cars.
I heard they took out the AC propulsion in the 10 R38 cars. Does that mean the experiment failed or was it a test for the R142/R143 and future car orders?
Whoops ... well, show you how often I rode 38's ... ran into several with cold air coming out of the doors (went for another car) and just ASSumed a portion larger than 10 were done up ... what can I say? I came from the line of R1/9's, 32's and 42's. Them Queens trains never went where I was going. :)
In addition, the R-10s also ushered in four motors per car and helical-cut bull and pinion gears.
There was an experimental modification on a few LV's in the 1950's. They removed all the seats and placed them on the 42nd St Shuttle.
Public opinion was nearly unanimous. I think the seats were replaced in less than 30 days.
The MTA could've have revived this old Broadway route. It could retake the former West End routing, and transfer the W to the Brighton line to provide the local service and eliminate the Q diamond by having the circle Q provide the express service
I agree completely with getting rid of the Q diamond and making it some other letter route.
I agree too,I think a Q circle and diamond was dumb.my brother,who works for the MTA,told me that putting the M on Brighton to Coney Island like it did back in the 1970's was a better idea,and i agree with him.
If the M was put back on the Brighton line with the Q running express, then would the N replace the Q diamond on the Manhattan Bridge, or would you just have the Q and W on it?
The W is essentially the old T. Why the MTA isn't using it I don't know.
Circle Q and Diamond Q seem to be in the same tradition as other Circle/Diamond routes (5, 6, 7).
The MTA decided on W and not T because W was on the rollsigns and T was not. Simple logistics--it's more expensive to retrofit the rollsigns on several hundred cars then it is to just use an existing letter.
Dan
That makes sense---except, why isn't T on the roll signs?
Good question.
Because it wasn't used. The better question would be why is W on the rollsigns?
The W was planned to be the new letter for the Diamond-N which operated from Forest Hills to Whitehall Street via local (hence W). In 1986 it was temporarily shelved because the N started running all trains local through the tunnel, making it unnecessary, but it would become necessary again when the N starts running express over the bridge again, if that ever happens.
What was the W put on the rollsigns originally?
But the TA ordered new rollsigns for the R68s and is putting new rollsigns on the R40 Slants. They could and should have put a T on them, but they didn't. The question is, why?
My guess is that they didn't want to introduce too many routes, and the W complemented the V.
T doesn't complement V? Why not?
The rollsigns I believe also have a blue H and a gray K. There is no problem with install extra letters on signs for when the need arises. The MTA has done it before. They should have created a yellow T if it ever becomes necessary.
If there was a yellow T, then they could rename the Q-diamond the T, but why confuse people even more?
W is a better letter for the West End, because it's the West End. W was used only briefly and not on all the equipment anyway. Historical reasons alone shouldn't be used as the justification for something.
The rollsigns I believe also have a blue H and a gray K. There is no problem with install extra letters on signs for when the need arises. The MTA has done it before. They should have created a yellow T if it ever becomes necessary.
If there was a yellow T, then they could rename the Q-diamond the T, but why confuse people even more?
W is a better letter for the West End, because it's the West End. T was used only briefly and not on all the equipment anyway. Historical reasons alone shouldn't be used as the justification for something.
I've got a beautiful picture of an R32 signed up for T Broadway Express service.
I do agree that W is a better letter for the West End.
Anyone have any idea what happened at Kingston Ave on the #1 this morning? I saw two police officers in front of the token booth and a big crowd in front of the vending machines... did the booth clerk call out sick? :)
I thought that if a S/A calls in sick, the lunch relief is supposed to take their place until someone more "permanent" arrives O/S [on scene]
Stuart, RLine86Man
Can someone tell me the busiest platform in NYC subway (since 9/11)? I'm looking for the platform with the most trains passing by. It doesn't have to be trains on the tracks next to the platform but within view of the platform. Would that still be Dekalb? Thanks
No way @ DeKalb!
Fulton Street and Bowling Green and Whitehall Street surpass DeKalb's average pax/day by at least twice, if not three times the amount of "geese" [in Kevin/Selkirk 'talk'] waiting and foaming at the mouth while waitiing on the platform.
Stuart, RLine86Man
He asked for trains, not passengers.
DeKalb would qualify the W, N, R, M, and Q (circle and diamond), thus making 5 or 6 lines. How many actual train sets, I don't know. If you count upstairs and downstairs at W 4 (but, you can't "see" both), you would have the A, C, E, F, V and Grand St S, for 6 lines.
I don't think it is the busiest, but with stations like Union Square, there never seems to be a time when there is no train in the station. I guess that would be true for Grand Central also.
Times Square, everyone wants express service and there's only one, the 3. Although sometimes, some #2's run express.
I'll throw out Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn -- 1/2/4/5 with the LIRR also somewhat visible from the platforms.
Isn't Bowery on the J the busiest station in the subway system?
By far.........................
If it is the bussiest station on the system why are they planning to reduce the number of tracks from 2 to 4?
It was a joke. Bowery is the LEAST used (passenger) station in the Manhattan.
I'd guess GCT at 8:45 AM for the absolute max: full scale service in both directions on all 3 lines.
4: 15 tph to Bklyn and 12 tph from.
5: 12 tph each way
6: 24 (?) tph each way.
Total about 100 tph.
E/F/R/V from Roosevelt to Continental is probably close to that too, maybe a bit less because when the max service of 50 tph goes toward Manhattan the return train load isn't so high yet.
At Dekalb, the 6 services aren't as frequent: maybe 6-7 tph for each of 4 4th Ave services (N, R, M, W) and 10 tph each for the Brighton services ((Q), ). Probably close to 90 tph.
1/2/4/5 at Atlantic Ave and other places on the IRT in Brooklyn in Brooklyn is probably 80-90 tph.
The MTA's published schedules make it pretty easy to guess at rough tph numbers though not exact ones.
I'd guess GCT at 8:45 AM for the absolute max: full scale service in both directions on all 3 lines
I guessed Union Square, but I guess that's right along with Grand Central, because if they go through GC, the trains also have to go through Union Square (and Brooklyn Bridge for that matter).
Peoplewise, it is said to be
72nd Street on the 1/2/3/9...
form a line, tho~~ ONE slim trim
stairwell can only TAKE so much...
I think 72nd is densest in people per square feet. The trouble is there aren't enough square feet. But GCT certainly has 72nd beat on pure numbers of people.
Oop! got me there..
tho are we thinking the
GCT 4-5-6-7-S ??
or do u refer to the MNRR area?
Just GCT 4/5/6 alone probably beats any other single pair of platforms. Not only are there huge numbers of trains coming through, but the majority of people get on or off. Also, in rush hour both platforms are jammed with people.
At Roosevelt Ave, in contrast, there are probably more people traveling through, but a lot of them are on the trains already and stay on. And only one direction is full of people at any given time.
Do you think GCT platform beats DeKalb platform in number of trains?
"Do you think GCT platform beats DeKalb platform in number of trains?"
It's actually very close.
Here's some numbers from the TA schedules for the period 8:00 to 9:00 AM at GCT and 7:30 to 8:30 at Dekalb. These numbers aren't really precise because the TA says things like "trains every 3 to 5 minutes".
The numbers they give for the 4 seem low to me. I thought they ran the 4 at 15 tph. The numbers for the 6 downtown are hard to judge bcause they say "every 2-3 minutes". If it's usually 2 minutes, it might be closer to 30 tph.
GCT:
4: 12 downtown, 12 uptown
5: 12 downtown, 12 uptown
6: 24 downtown, 20 uptown
Total 92.
Dekalb:
M: 7 inbound, 7 outbound
N: 7 inbound, 6 outbound
(Q) plus : 20 inbound, 14 outbound
R: 7 inbound, 7 outbound
W: 8 inbound, 6 outbound
Total 91
What are these little silver houses that seem to be popping up on the LIRR Montauk branch, and I assume other lines also?
They are all over the place. They contain the control and circuitry
for the grade crossings. All the stuff runs into there. I seen track workers tweaking around in there time to time.
From afar, its easy to mistake them for a outhouse
Those are relay huts. They contain the various electrical control equpment for the grade crosing (mostly electromechanical relays and batteries). They probably provide better working conditions and environmental control than the old relay cabinets.
Are they more secure from vandalism that what went before?
Possibly. It depends on what type of locking mechanism is used on the door. The huts can have external ventalation equipment that can be damaged and they frequently have the signaling conduits accessable in the space b/t them and the ground. However, all the equipment is housed on racks and an external pummeling is less likley to damage the equipment.
wow it has now been 4 years since they first got here. total number in service zero. badtransit.com did a come commentary on it read about it here
The last "rumor" floating around the MBTA is that they are awaiting a center truck retrofit by Breda, and that tests may begin yet again this spring.
And you thought the R-142 30-day test program took a long time!
Why couldn't the MBTA have gone with Kinki Sharyo for the Type 8's? NJ Transit has Kinki Sharyo low-floor LRVs running on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail and the Newark City Subway and they seem to be doing well there. The MBTA ordered its Type 7's from Kinki Sharyo and they're good cars. Maybe they could have saved themselves millions of dollars and tons of headaches if they went with Kinki Sharyo.
R142 #2,
I totally agree! Unfortunately the MBTA made a dreadful mistake and now they are paying for it. Kinki-Sharyo may not be the lowest bidder, but certainly could have been the better option. Especially since they are trying to modify the type 7s to work with the type 8s...thats 2 companies, and Kinki-Sharyo built all the type 7s. -Nick
the MBTA seem to have learned from thier mistake and given the contract on their new blue line cars to Siemens.
My uncles works for the MBTA and he cant understand why they bought them he also says that he hopes that they find all of the bugs in it and have them running again soon. haha i really dont think that they will though. we will have to wait and see. sunshine
Wish it was as simple as the writer thinks. Breda is now mostly owned by the Italian government. The T has called the federal DOT in. It's not only a Transit Authority - Manufacturer problem, it's going to be a U.S - Italy issue at the government level. Boston has paid for most of the cars already mostly with federal dollars. Breda is the one claiming the wheel interface problem, the T is certainly patient. I think they're hoping Breda will come up with a solution as that will be easier than trying to get money out of the Italian Government.
The person writing the website does have one thing right though and it is that the type 8 cars are awful. If after four years of debugging and trial runs they still haven't hit revenue service in reasonable numbers for a reasonably long period of time without the entire fleet being pulled because of critical problems then it's time to consider serious action. The MBTA should probably consider writing the type 8 fleet off and issue a requests for proposals to other car makers to study the feasibility of taking the Breda car shells and install good, working equipment on them; if that comes back as being unworkable, the MBTA should then proceed to ordering new cars from anybody else who can do better and have Breda/the government of Italy pay for an equivelent amount of the new order to balance what the MBTA's paid for the type 8s plus interest.
-Robert King
MBTA eyes Blue Line extension: Subway service in Salem, Lynn could be boon to
North Shore commuters
By JON CHESTO
Ottaway News Service
BOSTON -- Hildreth Curran knows she could be taking a gamble when she goes out
for dinner in Boston after work.
Train service on Curran's line -- the one that goes to the North Shore -- drops
off once rush hour is over. If she misses the 8 p.m. departure from North
Station, she has to wait until 9:35 if she wants to take the next train to
Salem.
"I work very hard to make it," said Curran, a Danvers resident who works in
Boston and boards the commuter train in Salem. "But there have been times when
the gods have not been with me."
That's why Curran sounded excited when she heard the Massachusetts Bay
Transportation Authority might extend the Blue Line to Lynn and Salem.
Although the MBTA's commuter trains already serve both cities, a Blue Line
expansion would give North Shore commuters like Curran more flexibility and
would bring them closer to the heart of Boston's financial district.
"I would use it," Curran said. "I think a lot of people would."
North Shore officials have been trying to get rapid transit service -- the
technical term for subway cars like the MBTA's Blue Line and trolleys like the
Green Line -- to Essex County for decades.
This time around, several officials involved with the planning process say
they're closer than ever to getting federal money for new construction.
"Because of the possibility of federal assistance to do this, this project has
a shot for the first time in a generation," said Joe Walsh, planning director
for the city of Salem.
U.S. Rep. John Tierney, D-Salem, has secured nearly $3.3 million in federal
money since 1998 to get the latest round of planning off the ground.
With some of that money, MBTA officials plan to embark this month on a yearlong
environmental study that would help calculate what it would take to expand the
Blue Line to the North Shore or create a new connection between the Blue Line
and the commuter train in Revere.
Local officials hope to use the results of that study to persuade leaders in
Congress to set aside more federal funds for the project when they consider the
next round of transportation spending in the spring of 2003.
The MBTA hasn't yet made a decision about which approach to take.
The final price will likely be a major factor in that decision. Federal aid
probably won't cover more than 60 percent of the total cost, said MBTA Director
of Planning Dennis DiZoglio. It's too early to say exactly how much a Blue Line
expansion to Lynn or Salem would cost. But DiZoglio said the price would easily
exceed $200 million.
Another possibility involves opening a new commuter rail station in Revere that
would allow North Shore riders to transfer to the Blue Line so they could
easily get to Logan International Airport or Boston's central business
district. All passengers on the North Shore's commuter trains now must go into
North Station, which is at least a 20-minute walk away from the city's
financial district.
While they won't be examined as part of the environmental impact study,
DiZoglio said, the MBTA is considering several other options. They include:
increased commuter rail service, additional parking at train stations, a new
dedicated busway between Bell Circle in Revere and Logan Airport, and a new
train from Salem to Peabody and Danvers along an MBTA right-of-way.
But most of the attention is focused on the Blue Line and how to extend it to
Essex County. A plan that would take the line at least as far as Beverly had
been considered. But residents in Beverly and other communities north of Salem
have said they don't want rapid transit to their communities. Instead, they
would prefer improvements to the commuter rail service that exists now,
DiZoglio said.
An extension to the MBTA station in Lynn appears to be more feasible than an
extension that would bring the Blue Line all the way to Salem. A Blue Line
expansion to Salem would be more expensive, and there may not be enough room in
the tunnel south of the Salem station to accommodate both the Blue Line and
commuter trains. MBTA officials don't want to use the existing tracks because
they don't want to interfere with current commuter rail service.
"The first step has to be to get it into Lynn (but) if we can work together to
make it get to Salem in one fell swoop, I'd be supportive of that," said state
Rep. Thomas McGee, D-Lynn.
The MBTA's latest study has some skeptics. State Rep. Douglas Petersen, for
example, supports the Blue Line extension. But Petersen, D-Marblehead, said
he's worried the MBTA doesn't consider the North Shore line to be a priority.
"I've heard a lot of words," Petersen said. "I've seen no real action. In my
view, it's been studied to death. I'm not sure what any additional studies
would accomplish."
'Coastal Corridor'
Salem resident David Pelletier said he's frustrated by the MBTA's reluctance to
pursue a transit plan he's been pushing for the North Shore. Pelletier's
proposal -- known as the "Coastal Corridor" -- would supplant the North Shore's
existing commuter rail system. His light rail proposal would use the commuter
tracks to connect North Shore stations with the Blue Line.
Pelletier said his proposal is more feasible because it doesn't rely on
creating an entire new set of tracks through the sensitive coastal marshes
south of Lynn or squeezing two different trains into the Salem tunnel. His plan
would require a connection between the current commuter train route in Revere
and the Blue Line that would give riders a shortcut and shave valuable minutes
off their trips to Boston.
DiZoglio said the Coastal Corridor idea has some merits. But MBTA officials are
concerned, DiZoglio said, because Pelletier's plan probably wouldn't be
embraced by communities in the northern half of Essex County who want to
protect commuter rail service. DiZoglio said there is also some institutional
resistance at the MBTA to the relatively radical nature of Pelletier's plan.
Despite the obstacles, Salem officials remain upbeat about finding a way to
bring rapid transit to their city. Joe Walsh said such a project is important
for Salem because the city doesn't have any direct connection to a major
highway, making it difficult to get into the city by car.
Boon for Salem
While the project would obviously help Salem residents who commute to Boston,
it would also be a boon for the city's tourism industry and people who travel
into Salem for their jobs.
"There's a huge potential pool of visitors from Boston," said Juli Lederhaus,
general manager of the Hawthorne Hotel in Salem. "(The Blue Line) would
certainly cut down on the perception that Salem is hard to get to."
Salem State College officials are lobbying for a possible Blue Line stop off
Canal Street near the college's main campus. Keith Ratner, a geography
professor at the college, said Salem's commuter train station is currently a
brisk 25-minute walk from the campus.
Businesses throughout the region could benefit from a Blue Line extension,
according to North Shore Chamber of Commerce President Robert Bradford. He said
it's particularly difficult to get to Logan right now.
"From a North Shore perspective, being able to get to Logan Airport with
relative ease can make a world of difference," Bradford said.
Getting a wide range of support on the North Shore is critical to any project's
success. That's why the MBTA established a local advisory committee last year
that's assessing the options and their potential impact. Representatives on the
committee aren't just from the communities that would be most directly affected
by a Blue Line expansion, such as Lynn, Salem and Revere. Gloucester, Beverly,
Peabody and Newburyport have also sent representatives to committee meetings.
Bill Tinti, a Salem lawyer who chairs the committee, said his group's input
will play a key role in the future of the Blue Line expansion. The MBTA will
eventually make the final decision about which route to take. But the agency
wants to get the North Shore's communities on board ahead of time. As part of
that effort, the next of several public hearings to discuss the issue will take
place sometime this spring.
"If something is really going to be done here, it's going to require as close a
consensus as you can get for the region," Tinti said. "Since there is intense
competition for state funds and federal funds, it's critical for us to make
sure we're all pulling together as a team from the standpoint of the North
Shore. If we do not, the chances of obtaining those funds and seeing anything
happen are very small."
A political pipe dream we will never see that in our lifetime. They have been talking about extending to Lynn since I was a kid in the 70's . Stevie
Huge signs have been posted all over Los Angeles Union Station - "No Trespassing - No Loitering - No Soliciting". The last two I have no problem with. "Loitering" covers vagrants sleeping in the waiting room and bathing in the restroom. "Soliciting" covers the Moonies and Hare Krishnas looking for a handout. But "trespassing"? In such a public venue (Amtrak staion, Metrolink commuter terminal, subway terminal, bus terminal, plus shops and restaurants), what, exactly, constitutes "trespassing"? What distinguishes a "trespasser" from someone intending to use the facility?
Nothing. Thus everyone who enters the building should be arrested and sent straight to jail :)
I live signs. no one reads them anyway.
No passing GO, no collecting $200.
It's probably some kind of a quasi-legal basis for arresting you if they tell you to leave and you don't. Because then you are on their property without permission.
Since it's public property, any U.S. citizen should be allowed to use it. Maybe this is their latest crazy idea for trying to catch people who are in the country illegally.
I would suspect, as another poster has also, that it puts additional teeth into the no soliciting, no loitering laws. Once someone has been asked to leave the premises, any return to those premises is trespassing, and trespassing is usually a more serious offense. Also (at least in some jurisdictions) if you are cited for trespassing at the same location multiple times it becomes a felony. Back when I was involved with a hobby shop in North Carolina our landlord prosecuted two women who insisted on hanging around the shopping center distributing religious literature; initially it was loitering, then it became trespassing, and eventually criminal trepassing charges were filed. Two of our employees were among the dozen or so witnesses for the prosecution. They were ultimately sentenced to 30 days in jail, with credit for time served; upon their release they started doing the same thing at another shopping center a couple of miles away. Our landlord figured that, during the year or so these women were regularly on the premises, they cost the merchants over one million dollars in gross business - people wouldn't shop there because they didn't want to deal with these women. We weren't as badly affected as some other businesses were, but at least one business (a Hallmark card store) up toward the far end of the block was hurt badly enough by them that it closed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OMG ..
I hope this does not include railfan photographers!
my interior shot of the los angeles UNION STATION.
Well, my training is done (at last) and now I am a full fledged motorman/conductor at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. I've got to tell you that operating those old cars is railfanning at its best. The only thing better would be to operate a train on the Brooklyn Broadway El or the Douglas and South Side Ls in Chicago. I highly recommend that you folks join and learn to operate streetcars at a trolley museum near you. Believe me, you won't regret it.
Eric Dale Smith
It's great that you can have training at this time of year at BSM! Up at Seashore, our cars are frozen-in-ice until at least March (sometimes April), when we segue into Mud Season.
Say hi to our joint member, John LaCosta!
Sure will. John is real cool.
Eric D. Smith
In the 'only thing better' than museum operations category applied to streetcars, my first cracks at driving streetcars was when I was just in my early teens back in the early 90s and I got to take PCCs for a spin occasionally on the Harbourfront line early on Sunday mornings in Jan/Feb. Museums are the next best thing, but there's nothing like motoring up the tunnel at speed.
-Robert King
I can testify that Eric, even as a newby, is very good as a Motorman.
I was his Dispatcher on February 3 and 3 of my trainmen marked off sick or family emergency that day. All I had was my second power man and Eric, so I worked them both hard all day. Denis, my second power man worked as operator on the one man cars and Eric motored the two man cars.
His last advice in his post is one I endorse: join and learn to operate streetcars at a trolley museum near you. Believe me, you won't regret it.
This is may sound stupid, but there's a serious legal implication behind this. This morning a fellow student at my school saw that I was studying Philosophy of Law and posed me this question. I told him "The State of NY," given that the state gives the MTA its authority to maintain and operate the rail and bus lines in the Greater NY Metro area. The problem he has is that he's working on a construction project of a cultural arts center that's under the ROW in Lynbrook. The MTA buildings dept. (or the like) saw this and slapped him and the other workers with a summons for working on its property without a permit. They have to appear in court on Monday to answer this summons. So I say again: Who owns the LIRR ROW?!
I believe the State of New York is the owner, not by virtue of MTA oversight, but because the State purchased it from the Pennsylvania Railroad. This is not necessarily universally true. I believe that the Atlantic Avenue Line is owned by the City of New York by virtue of the fact that it acquired it along with the BMT, because the BMT became the owner or lessee of the old Brooklyn & Jamaica RR. Maybe Bob Andersen could clear that up but I think it goes something like that.
However, I don't understand the point. Why were these people doing a construction project under the LIRR right-of-way and why did they think they had the right to do so? I guess you're implying that their cultural arts center is a state project therefore they can use state property as they please. Is that so? If so, I don't think they have any such right. A state agency doesn't have the right to appropriate the property of another agency just because the state owns it.
Anyway, I couldn't give you an opinion you could take to court because IANAL. And even if I were a lawyer, you couldn't take my opinion to court anyway because we don't have a lawyer-client relationship. ;-)
For the record (I hate that phrase, really...) the LIRR was once PRIVATELY OWNED as the New York & Long Island (sic) Railroad, a subsidiary of the Penna RR, for which the NY & LI RR used the lower level of New York Pennsylvania Station (tracks 15 [or 16, I'm not sure exactly]-21 [or 22, I forgot--it's been a few years since I've gone via LIRR to Penn and not "Round"bush Avenue)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Future Engineer of the Atlantic Coast Railway (VR of MSTS)
www.atlanticrail.com
IIRC, according to Ziel and Foster in Steel Rails to the Sunrise, the Long Island Rail Road, not the Pennsy, had the rights to build a terminal on the location of Penn Station. The PRR really didn't want the LIRR, but buying the road also bought the rights to build Penn Station.
Now, considering that Amtrak, as successor to Pennsylvania->Penn Central->Conrail in the Northeast Corridor owns Penn Station and uses it rights there to treat the LIRR (and MNRR) as a poor relation, just like the Pennsy did.
Now I'm just wondering ... when the Penn Central divested itself of the LIRR to the State of New York, did it also divest itself of the right to Penn Station? Hmmm... This could be a verrrrry important issue in the future, especially if Amtrak is broken up, and the new operator of Penn Station wants to play hardball with the commuter roads.
Most of Penn Station is now not owned by Amtrak, but by banks. They mortgaged it last year so they could keep operating.
A mortgage in New York State doesn't make banks the owner, since New York is a title theory state (if I recall the jargon correctly).
Even so, the mortgage is probably on the physical building. Amtrak would still have the access rights to the tracks unless they assigned them.
physical building
What a joke that "building" is. We can only wish the real physical building was still there.
Having now seen all three area sports arenas doing my photo work, I can fairly state that MSG is a complete dump compared to either of the other two. In fact, it's a dump compared to many high-school gyms.
-Hank
It's a shame NY lost one of it's great architectual treasures, Penn Station, for that piece of garbage, that could have been built anywhere in the city.
>>It's a shame NY lost one of it's great architectual treasures, Penn Station, for that piece of garbage, that could have been built anywhere in the city<<
And there was talk a few years ago of building a new Madison Square Garden near Javits Center. Can you imagine if they did, the original Penn Station's demolition would serve as a temporary home for MSG so they could move elsewhere later. What gall !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yacob Yavitts Center was a scam. So was Penn Sta/MSG. Bring back FreedomLand.
It would add insult to injury. We lost Penn Station totslly for nothing.
Not for nothing. No building lasts forever. MSG #3 lasted for 40 years. It only makes sense that MSG #crappiest should be demolished after less than 40 years (as of now this monstrosity will have stood longer than the one where Worldwide Plaza is now, since it will take quite sometime to build a new MSG even if they decided to do so tomorrow).
So the current MSG is the 3rd?!? I'd often wondered why it was nowhere near Madison Square. Where were numbers one and two?
the first two MSG's were near Madison Square. 3rd MSG was on 8th ave between 50th and 51st street. Madison Square Garden #4 is at its current location at the Old Penn Station.
By younger Brother also works at MSG#4 for the past 15 years.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
The current MSG is #4. The key word after #3 was lasted.
MSG #1 and #2 were between 4th (PAS), Madison, 26th and 27th. #3 was where Worldwide Plaza is now located: between 49th, 50th, 8th and 9th.
The first MSG was at........get out the drum roll...........Madison Square!
It was converted from the original terminal of the New York and Harlem Railroad.
BACK ON TOPIC!!!
It was converted from the original terminal of the New York and Harlem Railroad.
Is there still a tunnel, used or disused, leading to that former Terminal?
I think you mean the tunnel in Park Av South. Its currently used by automobile traffic. It was originally an open RR cut through rock. When the Murray Hill area began to develop, the real estate interests had the railroad arch over the cut, creating a brick arched tunnel (ca. 1850). After the NY & Harlem terminal moved to 42nd Street, rairoad service was cut back, and the tunnel converted to use by trolleys. A small trolley station was cut into the tunnel. The locations of the ramps and portals were changed sometime after WWI, when the tunnel was converted to automobile use.
I was always under the impression that the tunnel was used until trolleys stopped running in the 1930s. I guess I was incorrect and that the tunnel was converted when the Park Avenue Viaduct opened in 1919 (plaque at 40th Street).
Ah yes, Pershing Square, as I recall. Nobody calls it that, of course. It's just the front doors to GC.
I remember walking from the 42nd Street Shuttle out to GC, and some person behind me asked her companion, Ma Zeh Pershing Square (Hebrew for What is Pershing Square)?
Are you serious??? God, that MSG has been killing our stations since the beginning!!!!!!
It should be pointed out that the terminal was NOT demolished for the original garden, it was merely converted. Eventually it was demolished and was replaced by a Stanford White-designed structure, probably the nicest looking of all the MSGs, the same structure in which he would later die.
The building was bought by PT Barnum, but it went through a variety of owners before coming under the control of William K. Vanderbilt who gave it the name by which it is now known.
Tex Rickard moved it to the site of a former trolley barn on 50/8 after MetLife decided to demolish the old building (it owned the land) and develop it otherwise, he also started the Rangers there.
MSG and Stanford-White...........kind of ironic, don't you think?
It might interest you to know that by a strange coincidence, Sanford White, of the architectural firm McKim, Mead & White, which built the original Pennsylvania Station in 1905-07, was shot to death over a girl (showgirl Evelyn Nesbit) in the roof garden atop the "original" Madison Square Garden located near Madison Square. The story is alluded to in E. L. Doctorow's novel Ragtime. So, "MSG" had a role not only in the death of Penn Station, but also in that of one of its builders!
Can you imagine if they did, the original Penn Station's demolition would serve as a temporary home for MSG so they could move elsewhere later. What gall !!
Why? You expected the current Madison Square Garbage to stand forever?
I can't disagree more. I think the Nassau Coliseum is the worst (unless it has had a major renovation in the past few years since I was last there). And the Meadowlands is in the middle of swamp, it can't much more dismal just going to the building (and you have to to NJ, very poor transit access). The location alone of MSG give it life and vitality. It is a pretty nice place to experience a game. Yes the other areanas are a few years newer, but they have ZERO history and less atmosphere.
There's not much history at the Meadowlands, but you can't say 4 conecutive Stanley Cups and a pair of ABA championships don't qualify as history at Nassau. That's more championships in the last 20 years at Nassau than there are a MSG in the last 30.
And much of the 'history' of MSG took place in its previous incarnations. The only thing it really has going for it is location. Watching a hockey game at MSG is like driving at dusk without headlights. Watching the same games at Nassau or the Meadowlands is like watching a day game outdoors.
-Hank
The location alone of MSG give it life and vitality. It is a pretty nice place to experience a game. Yes the other areanas are a few years newer, but they have ZERO history and less
Close your eyes next time for a minute at a Rangers game or concert at MSG and imagine. You are actually sitting high in the Grand Concourse of glass of the ghost of Penn Station. A little sad. But then finish your beer and don't miss the score.
There are "lower level" tracks at Penn Station?
I think he means the tracks accessible from the lower level.
ok. thanks.
Aren't they all accessible from the lower level?
"Aren't they all accessible from the lower level?"
What do you mean by accessible.
The LIRR ticket office is on the lower level (if you call the middle level the lower level (I *am* trying to be on the level with you).
OK so start from the top (If the AMTRAK level is the top?)
OK.... STREET LEVEL
STAIRWAY DOWN............. AMTRAK LEVEL
Another Stairway Doan......................LIRR Level (Ticket Office)
One more down and we are on the PLATFORMS
The Platforms are all on one level.
All platforms *exit* to the middle level (do they not???)
But the WAITING ROOMS and GATES for boarding passengers are on the AMTRAK LEVEL for AMTK and NJT Trains; and on the Lower (LIRR Level) for the LIRR Trains.
Elias
Aren't they all accessible from the lower level?
From the exit concourse at the 8th Avenue end, yes (though I'mnot certain of the lowest numbered tracks). But this is not really for LIRR riders. In fact, it wasn't really intended for Pennsy riders, either. It was the exit concourse.
Where the LIRR ticket booths are, and the new mid-station concourse, and even the new concourse west of 8th Avenue, you only get a limited set of tracks--I believe 13-21.
Probably means "lower level concourse"
I believe that the Atlantic Avenue Line is owned by the City of New York by virtue of the fact that it acquired it along with the BMT, because the BMT became the owner or lessee of the old Brooklyn & Jamaica RR.
Yes, I have heard that the Atlantic Ave. Line is owned by the City of New York and is leased to the LIRR, but I don't know how this came to be - the corporate history of the various lines of the LIRR is so complicated! First it was the Brooklyn and Jamaica RR which built the line 1834-1836 and upon completion was leased by the LIRR in 1836. Then, steam was banned from Brooklyn in 1860, and the portion to East New york became a horse car line while from East NY to Jamaica came under control of the Brooklyn, Central and Jamaica RR (of course not to be confused with the Central RR of LI!). Eventually, when steam returned to Brooklyn in 1877, it all was reorganized as the Atlantic Ave. RR and leased again to the LIRR.
Where it goes from there, I don't know (yet).
Bob, I believe some info at your own site has the answer to this: The Grade Crossing Elimination documents let it be known -- if I recall correctly -- that the brunt of the cost of eliminating the at-grade LIRR trackage was carried by the City of New York with the LIRR shelling out somewhat less than half. I believe that is why it is owned by NYC. This also makes things 'convenient' should the Atlantic Avenue branch be turned into a rapid transit line.
BMTman
What year was the LIRR made into a subway on Atlantic Ave? I have a very vague recollection of the surface operation.
Was it around 1941?
There were two sections that are 'subway'. Between Flatbush Terminal and Bedford Avenue, and the other being from the East New York station to Morris Park.
The earlist built section was the Flatbush-Bedford part (western end). I believe it was finished in 1917 or thereabouts. I believe the eastern section (ENY-Morris Park) was completed in the late 30's or early 40's.
Bob Anderson's site might be able to confirm more on this subject(www.lirrhistory.com)
BMTman
It was the eastern part that I was wondering about, specifically around Crescent St.
1917! Gosh, Doug, I may be old, but I am not that old!
And to think I thought you witnessed Lincoln getting shot! ;-D
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't.
I do see a guy that looks just like him, make his speech every year on Nov 19th.
The maps I have from the Bob Emery collection say 1942.
Also, there was a slight error in my earlier posting. The Brooklyn & Jamaica RR was taken over by the Brooklyn, Central & Jamaica Ry. in 1860, and then by the Brooklyn & Jamaica Ry. in 1866, then the Atlantic Ave. RR in 1877.
Thanks, Bob! I guess that is why my memories are vague, I was only six years old then.
>>> I was only six years old then. <<<
Which date were you referring to, 1860, 1866 or 1877? :-)
Tom
I was referring to the 1942 date!
You knew that!
>> Why were these people doing a construction project under the LIRR right-of-way and why did they think they had the right to do so? <<
The Lynbrook viaduct runs over top of several buildings. I don't know the exact situation, but perhaps those buildings are actually owned by the LIRR and leased to the tenants, thus the possible need for a permit and the possibile confusion that might ensue if a tenant didn't realize this or was not forthcoming with a contractor.
That's true about Atlantic Avenue in Lynbrook. When the LIRR built the viaduct, they rented to many businesses directly under the roadbed. One of them, Murlee's Men's Wear, had recently been relocated a block north after having been -- if I'm correct -- the original tenant under the LIRR viaduct.
BMTman
A few questions about the Washington DC metro. Im thinking of going down there in a few weeks.
Which lines have the greatest speed? Between what stations? Which stations are of most interest? Is there a railfan window or a view into the cab(speedometer spotting)? Will I be able to ride all the lines within a 5 hour period?
Is there a railfan window or a view into the cab (speedometer spotting)?
There is a railfan window. I've never tried to read the speedometer so I can't answer that half of your question.
Will I be able to ride all the lines within a 5 hour period?
Parts of every one, yes... 100%, no. It takes about 6.5 hours to do the entire system non-stop, IIRC. It took me about 6 hours but that was before the Green Line extension was completed... and although I've been in DC many times since (my younger daughter lives near the Glenmont Metro station in Silver Spring) I still haven't ridden that section of the line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Red Line has 2 "speedways", between Dupont Circle and Woodley Park, and between Friendship Heights and Medical Center (with a stop at Bethesda). The Blue Line has these spots between Rosslyn and Foggy Bottom, and eastbound bound between the elevated portion outside of Stadium-Armory, and Benning Road, where the trains go up to 70 mph.
The stations with the most interest are: Dupont Circle, Pentagon City (shopping mall at station), National Airport, Friendship Heights, Bethesda, Ballston (shops, restaurants in surrounding neighborhoods, within walking distance), Smithsonian (museum complex), Union Station, Gallery Place (Chinatown, MCI Center) and the hub of the system, Metro Center. Also if you get a chance, check out the new Pentagon Bus Terminal.
If you want to ride all of the lines end to end, give it 7 hours.
Yes, you can read the speedometer.
The railfan window is best used in the Rohr cars, you'll strain your neck trying it in a Breda. If you prefer a view of where you've been over where you're going, the rearmost cars during the rush hour make good railfan seats, either type of car. No info on the CAF cars, went looking, never saw one. I live in Philly, and make it a point to head for DC twice a year - strictly for railfanning.
Personally, DC could take a lesson from PATCO and SEPTA on car design - the railfan windows are often taken up, even on virtually empty trains, since the seat faces forward, directly into a non-tinted window. Rohr cars on WMATA trains face sideways, across the train, Breda cars have them facing BACKWARDS... bleah!
Anyone know what happened to this site. I'm sure it was of interest to some of the people here. It doesn't seem to work anymore.
The site operator suddenly ran up against his bandwidth limitation and his WPP closed him down. I believe that soured him and made him decide to look elsewhere before bringing his site back up.
I believe his sister sites, www.bostonroads.com and www.phillyroads.com are up and running.
It's coming back soon.
IN the meantime: http://nycroads.quuxuum.org will get you to most of its content (I'm hosting it as a favor to Steve)
Thanks! I'm glad I asked, I missed that site.
Thank you very much for hosting his site. However, most of the links on the site are hard-coded to the old site, so they don't work.
- Lyle Goldman
That's Steve's (temporary) problem not mine. He's actively involved in getting the content moved over so I'm sure he'll fix it when he can.
Now that a great deal of the Red/Rustboids are "swimming with Jimmy Hoffa" somewhere, may I assume that we're now in the steelboid era?
Stuart, RLine86Man
Future Engineer for Atlantic Coast Railway (VR for MSTS)
Future Engineer for Virtual Burlington Northern Santa Fe (VBNSF) and
Future Engineer for Virtual Amtrak
Future Engineer for NEC Freight
(Boy, I'm gonna be BUSY, aren't I?)
I guess so, from here on out.
NO RAILFAN WINDOW ON ANY I.R.T.
subway car .!
That's not true. Just open the flipping window, turn your head sideways and PUSH. CI Peter
And watch out for obstacles!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Engineer # 18 of VRamtrak
Engineer # 70 of VBNSF
I Know the C at one time ran from Bedford Park Bronx To Eucld Avenue Brooklyn. Is there a current or Planned line that runs In all 4 Boro's?
I know the following lines Have 3 boro service:
1
4
5
A
F
J
L
M (Travels thru Brooklyn Twice)
N
R
Z
None, the C was the only line, but was shelved, it was murder to the T/O's.
Yeah, it must have been, especially when it went all the way to Rock Park
You had to feel for those conductors on the R-10s. They may have felt the same way even when they ran on the A.
Since the Bronx IRT lines can't possibly go to Queens, the only possibility would be Grand Concourse to the Rockaways or Lefferts. As someone else said, it would be murder on the crews.
Also, a different post in a different thread pointed out that the TA tries to avoid really long runs, because they're too long for a crew to do it 3 times in a shift, but too short to get full use out of the crew in 2 round trips.
So it doesn't sound likely to ever happen.
Does anybody remember which was the last line & equipment to be graffiti?
There are graffiti hits virtuallly every day - on almost any line. This evening at 5:30 there was a graffitied M-1 on 21 track at penn Station.
True, but the last NYCT equipment not in the Clean Car Program was a train of R-27s (8190-8235-8233-8184-8228-8141-8212-8149) that was used as a ceremonial "last train" on May 12, 1989 at 207th Street Shop. The last line to feature equipment not in the Clean Car Program was the L, in the spring of 1989.
David
I saw a hit on two NJ Transit Comet II coaches at Newark Penn Station yesterday. They were running on the Raritan Valley Line.
I believe it was the R27 to R30's on the C line, if I'm not mistaken, sometime in the late 80's.
Back in the bad old days of universal multilayered graffiti, where the sons overwrote their dad's graffiti, I have read that the TA really did have an anti-graffiti program: one guy with a single singled-edged razor blade.
Yeah and thet razor blade man was probably the only one they had. Most of the time you couldn't see out the windows anyway.
Grafitti wasn't licked until the "zero-tolerence" was instituted when the new R62/R68's and the newly overhauled redbirds started appearing in 1984. What they did was put these cars in a special "clean car" program, where they were constantly checked and were removed from service and cleaned after the first discovery of tagging. Other older cars which were due to be retired or had yet to be sent out to be overhauled were ignored. The R16's, R27's and unoverhauled R10's were an absolute mess by 1987.
A wonderful artistic era of harmless expression died on that dredful day on 1989.
oh no here we go again
lay it on
Hey I like graffiti, too.
If one were a true lover of grafitti, one would make the ultimate sacrifice by GOING BUTT NEKKED AND SPRAY PAINTED FROM HEAD TO TOE!!!!!!!! Stinkin maggot faggots have no 'brass' and have to carve their miserable 'tags' into anything frangible with a steel tool. Gutless skunks should carve their foreheads instead and leave my stinkin trainsets alone. LAY IT ON GUYS. CI Peter
no one likes scratchiti, its horrible, eww in that case i totally agree with you.
Yeah, tell them not to f*** with my railfan window!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't worry, the TA will take care of that little railfan window problem by getting rid of them :)
I'm sorry, I can't completely agree with you. There are many who should be stark naked with no paint on at all - nothing to obscure their natural, stimulating beauty.
:0)
Hey Seven, nice job setting off the foamers :) . It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to bait some people.
Foamers: Psychotherapy isn't just for people like Oprah. I suggest a 12 step anger management course for starters.
Oi gevault, this is all too much for a good jew like me. I'm outta here.
Nah, do what I did and killfile him.
joe killfile seven? heh..he is my biggest ally here, besides, I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE JOE.
Me thinks he meant the cat in need of anger mgmt.
10-4 me nah see the respndee's names, readdirect
butt naked graffito-outing? been there done that...im revealing waaay too much....AHOY LT. STEVE MONA
Heh, I recall JA mentioning when he was interviewed in Rolling Stone how he went tagging and running around some highway buck naked.
This is NY. It's been done.
This is everyday NYC. This is my home. This is my new work with my brothers from September 17th...we survived and endured 911. A little trash doesn't bug me...it's seeing the whole carbody vandalised with not a window unscathed. Spineless maggots don't have the guts to face a TA RANGER. CI Peter
The last grafitti covered car was removed from service in 1989. I think it was an R27 operating on the C line.
Not sure anyone noticed, but Larry Littlefield was quoted in Tuesday's John Tierney NY Times coulmn...
Hey, both Christopher Grey and David Dunlap have cited...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yep, he flamed NY State good, and they deserve it.
Unfortunately, the part about infrastructure being on the "loser" list in NY priorities (with schools and parks), and those who have cashed in and moved away on the winner list (due to all the debt we have), didn't make the piece.
I told Tierney that New Yorkers pay higher transit fares as a share of cost, more tolls, higher gas taxes, more parking taxes, etc. than anyone else -- because we know we need major transit investments. But like Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football, the investments we pay for get pulled away at the last minute, and the money goes elsewhere. We'll see about the Second Avenue Subway, LIRR to GCT, etc.
>>>>But
like Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football, the investments we pay for get pulled away at the last
minute, and the money goes elsewhere. We'll see about the Second Avenue Subway, LIRR to GCT, etc. <<<
My view has always been that without a Moses to make these projects happen there will always be the Bloombergs and the Tony Coles who will look at the short term and say "we can't do it"...and the short terms get longer and longer... and it never gets done.
www.forgotten-ny.com
When you give a mover and a shaker a blank check, he does what he wants and it isn't always (or even usually) what we hope.
When the will to do something is there, it gets done. The essential issue isn't a powerful person, it's the desire to do it. The building of rapid transit from the 19th Century up to Unification was driven by a consensus of importance and need. There were a number of important individuals, but it got done without a Moses.
What is the core principle behind the Second Avenue subway that would rally the entire city, no less the state, behind it? Who has enunciated the essential argument that says that this multi-billion project is New York City's most pressing transit need?
Instead it is the perfect political red herring. Politicians make speeches and point fingers. Community groups demand. Money dribbles in and it is spent in holes in the ground and planning studies.
History may show that we missed a golden opportunity when we "won" and got the politicians to "agree" to a full-length subway. I had great hope that the Stubway would be built as something practical--a demonstration project, as it were, that would be useful now and point to the future. Instead money that might have gone into construction may go into the pockets of engineering firms to put plans on paper.
When the will to do something is there, it gets done. The essential issue isn't a powerful person, it's the desire to do it. The building
of rapid transit from the 19th Century up to Unification was driven by a consensus of importance and need. There were a number of important individuals, but it got done without a Moses.
What is the core principle behind the Second Avenue subway that would rally the entire city, no less the state, behind it? Who has enunciated the essential argument that says that this multi-billion project is New York City's most pressing transit need?
No transit project is going to be able to rally the support of the entire city, under this line of thinking. Benefits of any new or expanded line will necessarily be limited largely to people living and/or working in certain geographic areas. About the only exception I can imagine is the westward extension of the 7, as it has the potential to increase development on the far West Side and therefore help the city's tax and employment base. Yet even this is an indirect benefit that won't become a reality for years and years. All of which leads me to the unfortunate conclusion that as long as people act solely in self-interest and don't look at the greater good, nothing's going to get done.
All of which leads me to the unfortunate conclusion that as long as people act solely in self-interest and don't look at the greater good, nothing's going to get done.
What makes the Second Avenue Subway (in particular`, not the principle of transit expansion in general) "the greater good" and not the special interest of the politicians and communities directly affected?
the very question you pose exhibits a lack of understanding/acceptance of the "social contract"
I sure am stupid. Enlighten me. The social contract I know of states that when we work for the general good (those other than ourselves) we will benefit because others will than work for things that benefit us. It usually translates into "I scratch your back if you scratch mine."
There are transit needs all over the city, but we concentrate on Second Avenue. And we're so intent on gold-plating it that it never gets done. Or any of the City's other needs. I'll list some of them for you.
A Manhattan Bridge that may never open fully and is one bad engineering report from being closed to rails permanently, as Brooklyn Bridge was. I don't even see Larry Littlefield's modest but useful (and inexpensive) stopgap of a York Street connection being done.
Most of East Flatbush, Canarsie and Flatlands, Brooklyn with no rail transit at all.
Most of Queens with no rail transit at all.
Most of Staten Island with no rail transit except a line which ends at a ferry and has no Manhattan access whatsoever.
But you read the social contract as not only requiring that an incredibly expensive full Second Avenue Subway is more important than these, but I have some nerve to even suggest that a justification be asked for.
"Second Avenue" looks like the general good expressing itself in a single area, not vice versa.
Maybe you could answer the question unless ad hominems are more your style.
I apologize. I read your comment twice before responding because I was taken aback. None of the other needs you mention are without merit, and I would agree the Man Br issue is already CRITICAL. Larry's long time Cassandra calls for contingency before disaster are correct.
I was surprised because the Second Ave line has been badly needed for six decades, promised for seven and the money lost at least twice so far. I do not believe demanding the much need southern half is gold plating. My comment as to social contract derived from my amazement that you would question the need for this line and its position near if not at the top of the pre 9/11 list. (I assume repair rebuild circa WTC is FIRST). That said, my view is that a full length four track line is worth the cost in dollars, but I am enough of a realist to know I will never see that built.
As to the other needs you mention yes they are all valid, in a more just set of budget priorities they would ALL be built. I do not see the Second Ave line as a special interest issue, thus my comment.
Apology accepted. We all get carried away sometimes. I was surprised that you seemed to be bypassing the issues--maybe I should have made them clearer up front.
But my main point is social/political more than historial or technical.
In order to get such an overwhelmingly expensive project built you need a political push that convinces people in every part of the City (or at least a clear majority of the City that this is important).
Compare it to LIRR/GCT--(let's compare the concept for the moment, not a "who gets what" issue)--if the beginning and end of the project were easier LIRR rider access to the East Side, it might better be left alone. Better east side access might be a good thing, but is it a Top Priority? In fact, for reasons peculiar to the LIRR, it will make commuting easier for some at the expense of being harder for others. So what's the real impetus for LIRR/GCT? Simple, Penn Station is full and threatens to get fuller. LIRR/GCT is the key to operating more trains to more destinations, and the is the only real hope of increasing service to Queens stations. So there will be the capacity to operate more service to every part of the LIRR, not just for people who are going to the East Side.
But with the Second Avenue subway they seem to make it an end in itself. A sort of "we should do this" but there is insufficent "why." And issues like that get more lip service than action.
aye there's the rub. See its the first step, to me, that's why it should be the four track local/express package so that the expresses can head up To underserved parts of the Bronx and over to Brooklyn to run in some new alignment .
Now as to LIRR to GCT I'm for that -- along with a major expansion of trackage both along the old West Side Line (empire connection) and the Hell Gate route. I can't count anymore how many times I have posted that there should be 'suburb to suburb' Conn DoT to LIRR service over Hell Gate to Jamaica for crossplat transfes and using AirTrain to JFK. Like I tried to indicate, I want LOTS more infrastructure. (Now I've used two trendy terms, I better sign off)
In order to get such an overwhelmingly expensive project built you need a political push that convinces people in every part of the City (or at least a clear majority of the City that this is important).
One thing to remember is that the Second Avenue line would be a big direct benefit for residents of an area - the Upper East Side, of course - that's positively brimming with economic and political power. Yet the Upper East Siders have so far remained curiously silent, making relatively few efforts to lobby for completion of the line. I just don't know why.
(One thing to remember is that the Second Avenue line would be a big direct benefit for residents of an area - the Upper East Side, of course - that's positively brimming with economic and political power. Yet the Upper East Siders have so far remained curiously silent, making relatively few efforts to lobby for completion of the line. I just don't know why. )
The way to get their attention is to propose the Second Avenue as part of a separate, FRA compatible system, with links to the commuter railroads and a premium fare. The express could run from Secaucus Transfer in NJ, stop in Times Square, run express from GCT to Lower Manhattan, and out to Jamaica, for commuter transfers. This is the "Snobway" idea we discussed some time ago. It would also increase financial feasibility, with opeating profits to offset some of the capital costs.
Just don't the snobs, and the suburbanites, that us riff raff would benefit indirectly from reduced crowding on the Lex, and they might go for it.
Would a Second Avenue Subway or for that matter, an expensive "Snobway" really be something people on the Upper East Side want? Don't they use cabs or, if they have to take transit, the express buses?
Would a Second Avenue Subway or for that matter, an expensive "Snobway" really be something people on the Upper East Side want? Don't they use cabs or, if they have to take transit, the express buses?
Mainly a stereotype, I'd say. Some of the really stinking rich might consider themselves too upscale for transit. But one of the more interesting features of the New York subway is the way it attracts people of all income levels, Upper East Siders included.
Only people on Park and 5th are cab and limo people. If these people were to take the subway, they would stay with the Lex since it's closer. The people who would most benefit from a SAS are those on Second and points east: Middle class (East End Avenue I believe is again cab country, but I'm not sure if that's out of snobbery or convenience).
(Would a Second Avenue Subway or for that matter, an expensive "Snobway" really be something people on the Upper East Side want? Don't they use cabs or, if they have to take transit, the express buses?)
There are few poor, or working people, on the Upper East Side. But there are plenty of affluent people who don't have very high incomes, due to their phase of life. For example, you have young, college educated people living with 3 or 4 roomates to afford Manhattan rents. They take the subway. Express bus riders would also take a premium subway, which would be faster (and cheaper to provide).
You speak of the need for a rationale. The region's prime economic asset, at this point, is the concentration of economic activity in the Manhattan CBD. Access to this, all else equal, determines the value of property and the economic future of a community. And transit access to a wide range of people is what makes the Manhattan CBD what it is.
The quality of the access includes time and comfort. For too many people, it takes too long and is too crowded. If you got another tunnel from NJ to GCT, but not Long Island, you'll see a big change in the economic future of those two places. Improved access to the suburbs with not solution to the City's biggest problem (only one line east of 6th Avenue) would provide another reason pushing people out -- just as investment in the highways and disinvestment in transit encouraged people to leave the City 50 years ago.
There are only two public services that, in reality, matter to business -- the police and transportation (the can import skilled labor from elsewhere if the schools stink). We haven't invested in new facilities. We've barely maintained our old facilities. That has to stop if there is to be a future here.
All of which leads me to the unfortunate conclusion that as long as people act solely in self-interest and don't look at the greater good, nothing's going to get done.
There is no "greater-good" with the Second Avenue Subway. It only works for East Side commuters.
It is not in people's nature to do anything for someone else unless they can get something in return. It is not in anyone's best-interest to try to trounce human nature.
The subway should be a profit-driven organization. The Second Avenue Subway would be built with venture capital, which unlike the .coms would actually turn a profit once it opens. There is no doubting that a well-designed Second Avenue subway wouldn't make as good a profit as the rest of the subway.
There is no doubting that a well-designed Second Avenue subway wouldn't make as good a profit as the rest of the subway.
Hey, I got a bridge you might be interested in buying cheap.
Well ... actually he might be onto something there - if the privatized second avenue subway could maintain crush loads with a one way fare of about $36.00, it COULD be profitable ... 5 cents was a LOT of money when the IRT opened and it made a profit for a couple of years ... but they couldn't keep the fare up high enough to meet costs for very long.
Hyperbole aside, do you think the money that's used to operate the subway is printed in the MTA financial engraving office? Unless of course the savings in tax subsidies to the MTA go to lining the pockets of the special interests (and by extension, get used as bribes campaign contributions), that would mean tax savings for everyone, or more spending in areas that can't be profitable.
Well, hyperbole holstered (but just for a moment) the reality is the fixed costs and recurring costs to operate a railroad are mighty stiff. Noo Yawk is an expensive place and I wouldn't be a bit surprised that a railroad that had to pay RENT, taxes, franchise fees, insurance and of course, let's not forget Con Head would probably end up having to price a fare CONSIDERABLY higher than that of the TA. As long as the other subways remained functional, busses or cabs as an alternative, then the competitive second avenue subway would have very low ridership vs. costs that are not sensitive to the demand. In other words, I seriously think somewhere near $30 a ride ...
Now if the 2nd avenue subway had dancing girls and free liquor for that subway token, then it'd have ridership and the price would come down. Anyhoo, that's where I was going with my rap before - an entrepreneur would get KILLED in the subway business. That's why there's no successful private operations. Even those "Orient Express" decadence tourista railroads charge a stump and a half and ain't making money. Trains are expensive to own ...
As long as the other subways remained functional, busses or cabs as an alternative
You didn't read my whole post. the ENTIRE subway system and bus system would be privatized and profitable. The Lexington Avenue line and the M15 bus would cost the same. The only competition would be walking.
Already the subway runs a farebox recovery ratio of about 70%. How does 70% of $30.00 come out to $1.50?
Already the subway runs a farebox recovery ratio of about 70%. How does 70% of $30.00 come out to $1.50?
Because the farebox recovery ratio for the subway only includes operating expenses - no capital, no allowance for the lost taxes that would otherwise be paid, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Already the subway runs a farebox recovery ratio of about 70%. How does 70% of $30.00 come out to $1.50? --- Because the farebox recovery ratio for the subway only includes operating expenses - no capital, no allowance for the lost taxes that would otherwise be paid, etc.)
I prefer "auto equivalent" accounting. The subway is pretty close to covering the purchase, maintenance and operation of the trains themselves, which is the equivalent of what autos pay.
The roads are paid for by taxes, and the ROW are its equivalent. I consider stations to be public buildings which raise the value of adjacent property, and should be financed by property taxes.
If the whole system was being privatized, then that fare I guessed at would be lower ... I was expecting a mass exodus to other lines at a lower price, leaving very low ridership to pay for all. But chances are the cost figures for a private subway would be MUCH higher than you expect since there are so many hidden cross subsidies at work here. Why just the purchase/lease of the holes in the ground with nothing running on them and no electrons would be MIGHTY stiff.
But this isn't an issue I'm all that interested in personally. There are some things that government does that are worthwhile. Subways are one of them. Privatize the busses. :)
Privatize the busses. :)
In almost all situations, local busses aren't a viable form of transport, their a social service provided to:
Peeople too poor to afford to purchase, maintain, fuel and insure a vehicle.
People who have physical limitations which prevent the safe operation of a vehicle.
People who have operated a vehicle dangerously on a number of previous occassions leading to their necessary removal from the road in order to ensure public safety.
People who have been arbitrarily robbed of the ability to drive a car by the regime on account of the number of times the Earth has completed a revolution around the sun since the time of their birth.
I didn't finish reading your post before I hit post (I intended to, I SWEAR!).
but they couldn't keep the fare up high enough to meet costs for very long.
Not because they didn't think anybody would pay that much money, but because the city wouldn't let them raise the fare. The city starved the "evil traction interests" and when it finally took them over, it managed to build JACK SQUAT. Even the IND is nothing more than a replacement for perfectly good els, only the Queens Blvd IND was a worthwile IND project.
Hey, I got a bridge you might be interested in buying cheap.
I would be interested in buying this bridge. Why do you think the MTA, a transit agency, owns the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority MTA Bridges and Tunnels? The surplus in tolls collected vs. maintenance cost is used to subsidise rapid transit. I would buy this bridge, charge a toll and use it to subsidize my life.
I have a feeling that Bloomie is more likely to do it than most, but according to news reports today on MSNBC, New York City has lost 25% of its business post 9/11 ... that NYC is still open with that big a gash in the wallet is an extraordinary event - more of a challenge than Abe Beame faced ... it's not like the man has a range of choices.
If anything, there's got to be a question as to why RUDY didn't do it when he was so awash in cash ...
For those interested - I have a matrix of the car/shop assignments for both A & B divisions. The car assignments are accurate as of 2/12/02. I'll respond to E-Mail requests only......
I posted another tidbit at MyRecollection.com:
Twin Towers Before the Twin Towers
Anyone else?
Wow... That waterfront looked so great! It's a pity they built over it in favor of office buildings, in which NYC has enough of.
If they had enough, they wouldn't have built more. Just because they say there's a lot of 'empty space' doesn't mean there isn't demand for the space; many companies want contiguous space in one building rather than 10,000sqft in a building, 30,000sqft in antoher building, and 50,000sqft spread over 3 disconnected floors in yet another building.
-Hank
> That waterfront looked so great! It's a pity they built over it
Uh, there's still a waterfront.
And if you have ever seen the World Financial Center at sunset, it's quite nice.
Thanks for the picture! I remember taking the Central RR of NJ to come home from my Aunt's house in Red Bank back in 1963, and connecting with the Liberty St Ferry. But I had no visual image of the terminal any more.
Not to mention the long lost [and lamented] Singer Building....
Seen a lot of ex-passenger cars as work cars or motors. But I saw something new tonight. DCR01 though DCR08 going through Franklin Ave. on the IRT. Looked like they'd been modified to slide cargo from one car to the next--part of the end doorways/doorframes had been removed. Does anybody know what it was that I saw?
Sounds like the Continuous Welded Rail carrier train.
I've brought this issue up before, and with the silverbirds headed to the #7, I thought now would be a good time to bring this issue up again.
I realize that the R62 and R62A do not need the major overhaul that the redbirds received in the 1980s, and that some upgrading has already been done to them...the average straphanger (or even subtalker!) just may not notice the improvements.
With the talk of the "11" train being used as an express, and also the continued problem of mumbling conductors...how about adding pre-recorded announcements, next stop indicators, and LED signs to all of the R62s and R62As (even to the cars not being used in Flushing)?
Also, I know that many cars on the #4 have had their buckling floors replaced with black, blue and white speckled ones...I hope that this continues as necessary. -Nick
AHHH the tiles.
In school car we had to watch a looong video of them doing that work.
I definately notice an improvement in the appearance of the R62s on the "4" train. Looks like they replace most of those awful scratched up windows. However, I wish there was a way they could brighten up the light fixtures on the R62s as well as the R38s.
It's not the fixtures. It's the florescent lights they choose to you. They seem to be using off-white/yellowish ones. I personally like the DayLights.
>>It's not the fixtures. It's the florescent lights they choose to you. They seem to be using off-white/yellowish ones. I personally like the DayLights.<<
No. it's not the florescent tubes. It's the white lexan diffusers that hold the car cards. They tend to yellow as they age. Also change the florescent tubes to new cool white ones. As the florescent tubes age, their phosphors also wear making the tube dimmer. Using daylight tubes is a bad idea, they give off a blusih white light and appear dimmer.
Getting back to the lexan diffusers, I have seen some new replacements on some R-68's and the older ones in comparsion look yellowish. As far as the R-62's for the #7 are concerned, if they don't have the money to replace all the diffusers which may be the case, they should open them up and clean them inside and out. Replace all florescent tubes and you should have a brighter car.
Bill "Newkirk"
F L U O R E S C E N T tubes. That is one word I worked to memorise. Anyone want to volunteer to clean lumiare diffusers? CI Peter
I never had a problem spelling that word. Maybe I spent too much time reading labels to things like FLUORIDE toothpaste.
I cannot speak for subway cars but I can speak for stations. Every six months all platforms and stairways and ramps on a station are relamped. For elevated stations with sodium fixtures, they are cleaned monthly. For those stations with diffuser covers on lights, the diffusers are cleaned when relamping occurs or when a tube is replaced due to being burned out, vandalized (broken) or stolen. Yes- light tubes as well as entire fixtures of often stolen! Once I had a homeless person steal the lightsd at the same station twice in one night.The second time the same officer came and threatened the homelss person with arrest. What is not generally known is the fluorescent tubes do nto use a standard two pin or one pin base, but a special base to minimize theft.
I have seen entire fixtures stolen on the L Line. They left only the bare shell of the fixture--all tubes, wires, diffusers,etc. were gone!
When I called the supervisor they expressed disbelief but I convinced them the fixture itself was stolen! AT Broadway Jct I caught a homeless person stealing conduit covers for scrap metal. I alerted police in the station and they caught him several weeks later.
Every station booth has a document called the Lighting Log which details all lighting activity in a station such as inspections, lights out, vandalism, etc.
Every time we call lighting (or a supervisor calls) an entry is made in the log. Every time a light maintainer comes to the station they have to sign the lighting log.
>>>What is not generally known is the fluorescent tubes do nto use a standard two pin or one pin base, but a special base to minimize theft. <<<
Most TA flourescent fixtures use a standard one pin base. They do however, have a "locking" device around them.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have seen some bulbs in stations that were broken by vandals. The one pin base has a flared end on it.I dont know about subway cars.
>>Most TA flourescent fixtures use a standard one pin base. They do however, have a "locking" device around them.<<
Oh yes they do. Look at the base of the lamp socket, you'll see a hinged collar that opens with a phillips screwdriver to prevent theft. Unless there are some original fixtures without this feature out there. Those are the ones installed in the early 60s with the milk white glass diffusers that were later removed.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>I have seen entire fixtures stolen on the L Line. They left only the bare shell of the fixture--all tubes, wires, diffusers,etc. were gone!<<
Only in New York !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well they can always rewire the Speaker System. But everything else you're asking for would be extremely expensive. To get the LED, they would have to add entirely new wiring in to the car, pre recorded annoucments a computer system similar to the R-142 would have to be created. Its a wish list which will not happen. Besides the R-62 is find the way it is. Its the best fleet since the R-32. So its gonna perform real well, and those redbird fans on the 7 sooner or later are be like redbird shemedbird!
You bring up an excellent point about the intercom system and quality of announcements on the r-62 fleet.
It used to be that I either rode an r-62 or redbird to work each day. Now, (thankfully, in my opinion) I straphang in an r-62 or r-142 class car.
I've noticed that the quality of the intercom system in r-62 cars is exceptionally poor. Even during off-hours, announcements are difficult to understand. When the system is used, there is often an irritating ring in the background, and sometimes an eardrum shattering interference or feedback.
What is the basis for the poor quality of the intercom system? Has the transit authority addressed this issue?
Perhaps I didn't notice it as much before, as I felt there was little contrast in quality between the announcements in the r-62 and redbirds. I believe both are fine cars, but comparing between these two classes, I feel the r-62 is woefully lacking in intercom quality.
I believe the intercom system is crucial, not so much for us SubTalkers, as we know where we're going, but for the 99.9% of those on board who are average commuters. I am especially concerned for tourists, as I believe a clear intercom system with comprehensible announcements is essential for improving the quality of the system.
MATT-2AV
Feedback in intercom systems is a result of high mike sensitivity and the operating position door being open. The R142 is notorious for that...close the insulated transverse cab door and everything is so quiet but open it and make an announcement...wails. CI Peter
To get the LED, they would have to add entirely new wiring in to the car
They could use the PA system wires. The LED signs each have their own computer (I don't think they constantly receive signals from the main server, that would be inefficient), and the signals programming them, which are only done at the terminals can be sent in the form of tones through the PA system. One could always install cheap filters for the speakers in the car, like DSL line filters which would prevent the tones from being heard if it's a problem.
pre recorded annoucments a computer system similar to the R-142 would have to be created.
No, the R-142 computer is much more complex. You'd only need one computer for the whole train. There is PLENTY of room in the R-62 for this. There are 4 unused cabs for every one useable cab.
Pig,
Thanks for all this info. If what you are saying is accurate. Perhaps the MTA really could upgrade the R62 and R62A at a lower price tag than originally thought! -Nick
Pig,
Apologies for my grammar...it was not my intent to sound sarcastic and make you think I did not believe your information! -Nick
That's OK. I didn't notice any such problems.
No LEDs!!!! The R62 and R62A's have the BEST rollsigns, the best route identification signs in the whole system. Let's not spoil it.
:-) Andrew
I think he meant the interior ones
You can keep the front bulkhead rollsigns...I am not trying to creat an R32/R38 fiasco. :-) -Nick
It's not just the front signs, it's the side signs too. Those are MORE important than the front and rear signs. Those large route buletts with the two line destination readings are the best route signs in the system.
:-) Andrew
Andrew,
I can agree with you that those signs are good...but if they add the #11 train next to the #7 train, it will be easier to use LED signs. -Nick
>>I realize that the R62 and R62A do not need the major overhaul that the redbirds received in the 1980s<<
A stated on this board many times, the R-62/62A's don't need a major overhaul. The Redbirds needed one due to years of deferred maintenence, otherwise they would have been scrapped !
The R-62/62A's need a spruce up of sorts. Replace those lumpy soft linoleum floors, clean to the interiors, change bulbs, replace windows and repaint end fiberglass bonnets.
One thing that needs to go and this will raise some ire, is the pantograph gates. Yes, they'll spoil the look of the R-62/62A's, but those gates are a source for vandalism and mischief with lowlifes who snatch chains and scratch windshields. Balony springs should replace the pantogtraphs.
Bill "Newkirk"
Love those springs!!! T/Os uncouple cars and forget to detach them. CI Peter
Do they do a slinky number and pull the cars back together? Since we're discussing a rehab for the 7 line anyway, perhaps carbody could replace the cheesy linoleum with orange and brown thick shag rug, maybe some lava lamps on the door jambs, blacklight fluourescent tubes instead of the daylighters and lemme see ... oh yeah, drool buckets near the gunport on the cab door. Yeah, that's the ticket. :)
Stainless steel springs on the R142s don't pull the cars back together but boy do they have a reach. Best when then make third rail contact. I'm so tired: replaced a manual slack adjuster as well as hand carried all the parts around by myself. CI Peter
It *IS* a slinky then! Woohoo! I WANT one! And as to the adjusters, I thought they routinely dispensed slack there ... and my sympathies, I know they weigh almost as much as a Volkswagen ...
Hey, I'm not crying. I'm OK and was glad to finish the job before handing over to PM troubles. It was easy and I needed something to occupy a few minutes: time cards are now handed out at 2:50 PM to those in work clothes. CI Peter
Never a dull moment in hammer patrol, eh? :)
IMHO, the major deficiency that these cars have right now is their seats. Replacing the bucket seats with benches would go very, very far in terms of making it more customer-friendly.
Dan
2 points/questions about the new light rail link that is being built to connect from Camden to Trenton.
As a reporter, I got an "unofficial" tour of the new light rail line that is scheduled to run from Camden to Trenton.
#1-The "official" I was with was from the city of Camden....he complains that no one will use it. Does anyone know if this is true or not? (I was thinking of using it instead of R7 to trenton, will it be cheaper and/or faster than SEPTA?)
#2-Whats with the platforms being built at every corner stop. Isn't this a bit much??? I use SEPTA's light rail lines and people just step off of the trolley onto the sidewalk when it's operating on the streets. I think that's a huge waste of $$$ and time!
"#2-Whats with the platforms being built at every corner stop. Isn't this a bit much??? I use SEPTA's light rail lines and people just step off of the trolley onto the sidewalk when it's operating on the streets. I think that's a huge waste of $$$ and time!"
Surely it's for ADA compliance? Any brand-new system would have to be wheelchair-accessible from day 1. Here in the UK, the recently built LRT systems (Manchester, Sheffield, Croydon, etc.) all have platforms at the street stops, for that reason. Wheelchair users can use the slopes at the ends of the platform to reach tram-door height, and then it's a flat entrance.
he complains that no one will use it. Does anyone know if this is true or not?
No.
Those opposed to the construction have used that as the main rational reason to justify not spending the money, or spending it somewhere else. We'll find out when it opens. Few people expect it to draw substantial ridership. A major hurdle is ending service at 10 PM to accommodate overnight heavy rail freight trains (light rail and heavy rail can't use the same tracks at the same time; that would be as dangerous as letting cars and trucks use the same highway at the same time), so Trenton Thunder games and E-Center events will not be served.
Another facility that will be mis-served will be Campbell's Field, home of the very popular Camden Riversharks. Surprisingly, NJT runs a shuttle bus from Rand Transit Center to the field but it is very unpublicized. The C-T line passes within a block but the 10 PM 'Cinderella' time will certainly hurt any chances of using it to get to and from night games.
In as far as no one using it, I think it's a little silly to be whining about that now.
Seriously, though, there is a lot of potential ridership. Do you recall efforts to expand PATCO? Do you remember that PATCO was built as one line out of three which had been planned (only one was completed)? Well, if I am not mistaken, the first 10-15 miles starting from Camden will serve one of the additional corridors that should have gotten rail service but didn't.
The further segments? Well, the R7 line has healthy ridership, but New Jerseyans need an equivalent which is on their side of the river.
The only reasonable thing, as a reporter, to do now, is watch, wait, observe what the actual ridership is over the first months of operation. Don't let others prejudge it for you. Judge it for yourself.
#1-The "official" I was with was from the city of Camden....he complains that no one will use it. Does anyone know if this is true or not? (I was thinking of using it instead of R7 to trenton, will it be cheaper and/or faster than SEPTA?)
If you build it, they will ride. Look what it did for Mertorail in DC - most of the residents feared the crime and overcrowding it would bring, and didn't expect the marvel of technology that it has become. And as far as the R7, remember that you'd need to pay the PATCO or NJT price to get across the bridge to the rail line, then pay that fare... which surely has a zoned structure. And, if there are frequent stops in Camden, forget about it being faster than the R7. Stick with the R7 line for regular Phila. - Trenton service
#2-Whats with the platforms being built at every corner stop. Isn't this a bit much??? I use SEPTA's light rail lines and people just step off of the trolley onto the sidewalk when it's operating on the streets. I think that's a huge waste of $$$ and time!
ADA compliance. Yeah, right... have they never heard of "low-floors" That's what SEPTA had planned for their new LRVs (which we may eventually see anyway, such as if the 23 or 56 trolley come back from bus service). Low-floor transit vehicles eliminate the need for massive wheelchair lifts that malfunction at the worst times... a slightly raised surface allows for a smooth crossing from street to rail car. Platforms of the type you describe are for subways and (occasionally) commuter trains.
Just a guess: the Camden-Trenton light rail will be slower and cheaper than SEPTA's R7.
Your guess is probably dead on. I'm sure folks will ride given the economic problems of the Route 130 corridor that it serves and the need for people to get to job centers.
Also, the LRV's (diesel) to be used are low-floor.
I heard an interesting story today from a union electrician working as a contractor on SNJLRTS station construction. The electricians are installing conduits that run along the ground and then angle up through the station platforms. The station platforms are constructed of concrete offsite and are delivered and lowered onto the supporting pillars by crane. The architects/engineers altered the station plans in November, such that the location of the conduits was changed, so the electricians installed the vertical conduits in the new locations. Apparently the platform manufacturer was not apprised of the changes, because the platforms were delivered with the conduit openings in the locations specified by the earlier plans, and the openings did not coincide with the location of the conduits.
I took a few photos of construction sites in Camden today. They can be seen at http://community.webshots.com/album/30322055olzHSVndAu.
The only system I've ridden all of is MARTA. I hope to ride all of Sao Paulo in August.
This looks like being a fun thread.
I've done all of London Docklands Light Railway -- including the trip over the old single-track viaduct (disused for over 70 years and then brought back into use) into the elevated Island Gardens terminus. That can't be done any more as the line has now been put underground, the old viaduct left to its slumbers, and the high-level station dismantled.
I've done most of London Underground including two now-closed branches (Holborn-Aldwych and Epping-Ongar). Can't quite remember where I haven't been, actually, though I never did Acton Town to South Acton before it closed.
My particular taste is for riding *new* lines, as close to opening day as possible. I was on the first public train from Warren Street to Victoria when the Victoria line was opening in stages in the late 1960s, and the first public train to Heathrow Airport in 1977.
NYC
Paris -the buetyful women don't hurt either
boston
newark
london
DC
I've done most of London Underground including two now-closed branches (Holborn-Aldwych and Epping-Ongar). Can't quite remember where I haven't been, actually, though I never did Acton Town to South Acton before it closed.
Lucky sod. I never made Ongar. Oh well, I won't look back. ;-)
All of Miami Metro. It's only 1 line with 21 stations on 21 miles of trackage.
I drove by that one Route 1 in southern Miami. It reminded me of the LIRR next to Sunrise Hwy/NY 27 in Nassau County, just the way the elevated rail was right next to the wide boulevard.
:-) Andrew
That's true, minus the palm trees.
I rode on the entire original Montreal Metro (all three lines) in 1969 and 1970 before it was expanded.
I rode the entire Rome subway in the summer of 1978. Not that this was any huge accomplishment, as at the time the subway was a single line only a few miles long.
I've ridden the entire Rome metro in more recent times, including the north-western extension of Line A. However, with lines C and B1 under construction, I won't be able to say that for much longer.
Otherwise, the only ones I've ridden the whole of are Glasgow (the clockwork orange), Newcastle-upon-Tyne (oops "Tyne and Wear" - sorry you folks from Gateshead), and, if you count that lousy pretend metro, Birmingham. I've also used most of the Paris, Barcelona and Munich systems, and I''ve ridden all of Lille except for the extreme north-eastern bit near the Belgian border.
I asked about that when I was in Rome in 1977 and was told it hadn't opened yet. It seemed they kept uncovering ancient artifacts while digging the tunnels.
I'd love to go back to Rome with the camera equipment I have now. I could shoot several rolls of film at the Colosseum alone. Not to mention St. Peter's.
I asked about that when I was in Rome in 1977 and was told it hadn't opened yet. It seemed they kept uncovering ancient artifacts
while digging the tunnels.
The line seemed to be newly opened when I was there in July 1978. It ran from near the Colissuem to the main railroad station, a distance I'd guess at somewhat under five miles. I can't remember how many intermediate stops it had. It really wasn't very useful.
Colosseo to Termini is only 2 stops - Cavour is the one in between. I've walked it. It's about a mile.
Buffalo Metro. One line that's a few miles long, from South Campus of the University of Buffalo to "Auditorium". It seems that every other system is called "Metro", doesn't it?
:-) Andrew
I ridden the entire Metrorail in Miami and the subway in NYC,all the subway lines.
Living in Chicago, I'm ashamed to say that there's a piece of the CTA I've never ridden, the Green line branch to 63/Ashland (been as far as what had been the Wentworth station on that branch many years ago). However, that branch is in a questionable neighborhood, so I've never quite mustered up the courage or a sufficient cadre of high school wrestlers to do it. (The wrestlers comment refers to a friend of my son, who, when they were in high school, was referred to by a ne'er do well son of a neighbor as a "gorilla").
I've ridden all of the current NY subway at one time or another, except for the newly opened 63rd St connection between 21/Queesbridge and the Queens Blvd line (hadn't opened yet last time I was in NY in December). This includes some lines which no longer exist, such as the Polo Grounds shuttle, the Myrtle Ave. El between Broadway and Bridge/Jay, the Fulton St. El between Atlantic Ave and what is now the 'A' line over Liberty Ave. in Queens, and the Jamaica line to 168 St.
I've also ridden the entire Denver Light Rail from Littleton/Mineral to 30/Downing (took less than 2 hrs, see the pictures).
-- Ed Sachs
"Living in Chicago, I'm ashamed to say that there's a piece of the CTA I've never ridden, the Green line branch to 63/Ashland (been as far as what had been the Wentworth station on that branch many years ago)."
Ditto. The only portion of the CTA I haven't ridden is the Green Line south of Garfield (55th Street). But I have to admit that before the last SubTalk field trip to Chicago, I hadn't rode the Green Line except between Clinton and Roosevelt, the Red Line south of Cermak/Chinatown, or the Blue Line Cermak Branch west of California.
I did ride the entire rail transit system in Seattle (Monorail and Waterfront Streetcar; there was no Sounder when I was there and Sounder is commuter rail anyway) and New Orleans (Waterfront and St. Charles lines), as well as the entire Newark City Subway.
I've ridden all the BART lines here in the Bay Area (Am I the only Subtalker to have done this? Doesn't seem too many Subtalkers get out west much. Jet Blue flys to Oakland now you know - LOL).
Before coming west many years ago I lived in Philly & Chicago. In Philly I've had the opportunity to ride all SEPTA & PATCO lines (The Broad St Subway was the first line I ever rode when I was a kid & I can still recall the fascination of it to this day).
In Chicago I grew up riding all the "L" (not El)lines through all sides of the city. Although I get back to Chicago from time to time I have yet had the chance to ride the Orange line. I would be a bit strange I think to ride the "L" on the Southwest Side.
You know I ride Muni Metro daily and didn't even think to list it on my previous post. Guess I think of it more as as light rail and even as a streetcar more than I do a subway. On that note let me include SEPTA'S Subway-Surface too.
So how about light rail line where we've ridden the whole thing next?
Also, now that I think of it, I've ridden all of PATH too!
I've ridden all of BART, as well as all of MUNI (even both cable car lines). I've ridden all of the CTA (even the REALLY scary parts) except for the non-revenue 'Paulina Connector.' I've also ridden all of the Portland, OR 'Max' light-rail system, which isn't really a subway except (maybe) where it tunnels under Washington Park.
No, you're not the only Subtalker to have ridden the whole BART system. When I visited the Bay Area by myself in November '84, I did the whole system over two days. Of course, that was before the eastern leg was extended past Walnut Creek. Hasn't the southern leg been extended past Fremont, as well? I'll have to check the website. Did some, but not all of the outer MUNI light rail branches.
I've done the entire NYS subway (including the Lenox stub in February 1978 within a day or two of the murderous Willie Bosket rampage- shudder! That's one segment I've NEVER repeated!), LIRR, MN and NJT- except for the Princeton shuttle and Atlantic City line.
In 1979 a group from my dorm went to Toronto one Sunday. I think I did what was then the entire length of the two lines that existed then: The one that runs East-West along Bloor and the one that runs in a V shape northeast and northwest out of downtown.
Almost all of SEPTA rail (including the suburban 100-series) except the Ridge Spur, which seems to have very limited service, the R1 (with its premium Airport fare) and R6 Bala Cynwyd. Time and service constraints restricted my trips on the R2 to Wilmington, R3 to Media and R5 to Whitford.
In 1988, I did most T lines, except Red to Braintree and the various western Green tributaries. Later that year, I did as many London Tubes as I could.
If I had unlimited time and money, I'd do Boston commuter rail and everything in Baltimore, DC, Chicago and LA.
"including the Lenox stub in February 1978 within a day or two of the murderous Willie Bosket rampage- shudder"
I'm not familiar with this incident, what happened?
Willie Bosket, at the tender age of 15, murdered at least three people within a week, one of them on the '3' at 145th Street, where not all the doors open. He took out an elderly man in one of the cars that did not platform. His motive for killing wasn't drugs, or murder, but for the sheer fun of it. The local tabloids seized on this and dubbed him "The Thrill Killer". He supposedly was a motivating force for New York State treating all murder suspects under the age of 18 as adult offenders.
Reading about this murder just a couple of days before I was on that very train at that very location gave me the creeps. I haven't been on the '3' above 135th since.
He supposedly was a motivating force for New York State treating all murder suspects under the age of 18 as adult offenders.
But do you think that the state would ever treat anybody under 18 as an adult otherwise? Never
NY all except IRT to New Lots, and the new stretch of 63rd missed outer end of J to 168m but did catch Myrtle on last night of revenue service.
Chicago everything extant, missed Stockyards/Kenwood, did ride "temporary" Garfield Park line during construction of Congress route, and non-revenue connector along Paulina, first day on Skokie Swift. (I rode the Jackson Park branch regularly when I lived there) (IC Electric all but Washington Park racetrack line before Matteson line extension) ( CSS&SB, CNSM)
BART every line on first day of service, including first transbay westbound early AM, and one day of pre revenue excursions in SF. MUNI, all rail routes.
San Jose all but latest Tasman East
Sacto All as of three years ago
Portland ditto.
Philly BSS before southern extension, MFEL old ROW, Norristown on bullet cars (and 23 line as a commuter) PATCO, (some RDG, PRR lines pre tunnel, and since)
Baltimore Metro a decade ago, most of LR(missing northerly four stations)
DC Metro, all Red much Green, Yellow, Blue , Orange
Cleveland all extant
LA short sample only
Boston Green all, Red all, Blue as far as Logan, Orange current version only, Ashmont
I rode the whole Miami Metro in 1998. And almost all of NY, which I've been trying to finish since the early 90's. I almost finished NY except for the stupid piece between Mott Avenue and Beach 67th Street. (That along with the LIRR Far Rockaway Branch, I was going to do them together since about 10 years ago, and never got to it.)
Ed:
I've lived in Chicago since 1996. I've ridden the Green Line on both South Chicago branches. Yes, I do stand out as being one that isn't from the neighborhood, but I've only encountered problems once (see below). I get a few people who look at me like I'm lost, or some just look and shake their heads, or mutter to themselves, but not anything physical.
I save my riding into the southside neighborhood for Sunday mornings. Before 11 AM, the only passengers you see are those who are heading for work and ladies on the way to church.
One time at East 63rd/Cottage Grove, an elderly lady finely dressed asked me if I was lost. I preceeded to tell her no, and that I knew where I was going. She then added I was probably crazy. I thanked her for her concern.
The only time I encountered problems was when a middle-aged woman started cursing me for being in the railfan seat. I asked her if it was her assigned seat, and she backed off and sat elsewhere. However, when I got off at Clark/Lake, she immediately took possession of the seat. I guess I'm guilty of not being an gentlemen and yielding the seat to a 'lady'.
Lately, when I visit friends in Hyde Park, I've been using the Red or Green line trains to Garfield transferring to the #55 Garfield bus. I'm not the only white person doing this, especially at the Red Line stop. There are quite a few non-African Americans that use this station as a transfer point, but large part it is used by African Americans. That is not to say that I'd try the trip at 10 PM at night. The #6 Jeffrey bus, or a cab, is the better option going home to the Northside.
The line that has been giving me second thoughts recently is the Orange Line into the Southwest. There are large groups of kids (students) riding this line in the afternoon, and they don't care how much commotion, foul language, or physical abuse with each other, they subject other riders to.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
I've ridden the St. Louis Metrorail from end to end. Only one line so it isn't difficult. The new extension to Belleville College goes through rural areas in part, so much so that it's like riding an interurban!
I used to be able to claim St. Louis, but I rode it before the latest extension opened. I'd love to get out there and ride the new line someday.
Mark
Before the extension opened, I rode all the Metrolink but the most easterly station. So close yet so far.
Many subtalkers have ridden all of SEPTA's subways: Broad Street, Ridge Ave spur, MFSE, and subway-surface.
As well as Philly's Broad Street Subway, Ridge Ave spur, MFSE, and subway-surface lines mentioned earlier, I've also ridden all of PATCO, PATH, and the Newark City Subway.
I've ridden all of MARTA, all of Toronto's system (including the Scarborough Rapid Transit) and all of Baltimore's subway. Of course, the last isn't saying much, as Baltimore only has one line. Also, I'm going to lose Toronto from my list as soon as the new Sheppard line opens. I'll have to figure out an excuse to get up there after it goes into service!
I'm sad to say I haven't ridden all of my own home subway in Philadelphia. I've done all of the Market-Frankford line, but I've never been below Lombard-South on the Broad Street Subway, and I've only ridden PATCO as far east as Camden City Hall.
Mark
How could I forget?! I've also ridden every single inch of Burlington, Vermont's Champlain Flyer...you read right, every single one of its three...count 'em, three...stations.
Mark
I've riden all of the Newark City Subway and the HBLR. Everything else is a "mostly."
I have done entire NYC, MARTA, Philly( subway), PATH, SIRT, PATCO, Newark NJ Subway.Metro North East of Hudson, Most of NJT (balance Pending).
I rode the whole NYC system as it existed in 1968, including the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx, the Myrtle Ave El, the Culver Shuttle, and the full Jamaica Ave El.
But I've stopped riding just for fun and so I've never been to Queensbridge or to Jamaica Center!
Oh I forgot one l;ine- I rode HBLR first day plus Newport Extension.
Zenbu no Tokyo no chikatetsu ni norimashita (I rode all of the Tokyo subway system). I must qualify this however, as there are many private railway lines that also extend into the actual environs of the Tokyo subway during rush hours, providing direct access into the city, a unique feature of this massive system. My riding of the "whole" system applies to the "official" ends of the lines. Tokyo's subway is clean, safe and efficient. It can also be extremely crowded. The Shinjuku Station of the Marunouchi Line is the single most crowded subway station in the world. The Ginza Line has the distinction of being the first subway built in Asia, during the 1930's. Tokyo has an excellent subway museum at Nishi-Kasai with full scale simulators of various subway lines. It is interesting to watch the young Japanese children manipulate the controls of these as if they were professional drivers. They get a lot of practice, no doubt, playing the popular Japanese video game "Densha de GO!". The most startling thing to a former New York visitor is that the seat cushions of the Japanese subway cars are upholstered in padded velveteen cloth, and not one of them is ever soiled or ripped! How long do you think these comfortable seats would last on the TA??!!
[How long do you think these comfortable seats would last on the TA?]
I'd say until five minutes after said train leaves a stop near a high school that just let out.
NY, Philly (SEPTA & PATCO), Atlanta, Washington DC, Chicago, San Francisco (BART & MUNI), Toronto (but not the light rail lines), Boston (not the Commuter Rail tho), Baltimore (but not the more recent extensions of the light rail line), Dallas.
--Mark
Lessee...
All of NYC, and most of PATH. (The Newark-Journal Sq part has not been used by me, but I had seen the two westernmost stations on an Amtrak train.)
i have done nyc subways (in the early 70's), the path including the late wtc and hudson term. newark subway, patco, most of philly parts of washington and boston.
Let's see:
SEPTA subway / el (not all of Subway Surface).
PATCO
PATH
NYC
Newark
HBLR
"Mostly"s on NY Area Railroads:
LIRR except east of Mastic-Shirley
MNRR except Danbury and Waterbury branches... and north of Harriman on the Port Jervis.
NJTransit except for west of Dover and Raritan, and the Gladstone Branch.
If we're counting commuter railroads, I've been on all of the LIRR except for the West Hempstead Branch (which I have seen almost all of from the surrounding roads) and the south ("east") end of the Long Beach Branch, past East Rockaway. That one I have also mostly seen from surrounding roads.
:-) Andrew
I've been on all of the LIRR except for the West Hempstead Branch
West Hempstead I actually did on a diesel. It was a farewell trip to the old LIRR coaches. The people along the line were holding their ears as the train blasted through there. I guess they weren't use to real horns.
All of Toronto's subway and RT system and most of the streetcars. All of the Montreal Metro. And all of the vast, colossal Ottawa O-Train system (all FIVE stations!!! Gasp!!! How did I ever manage it in one day!!) :-)
Between 1977 and 2001:
Boston (Hometown)
New York City (IRT, BMT, IND, SIRT, PATH)
Newark City Subway
Montreal Metro
Toronto (Subway, Streetcars, Trolleybuses and the Scarboro RT)
Detroit People Mover (if that counts)
Buffalo LRRT
Vancouver Skytrain & Trolleybuses
Chicago "L"
St. Louis Metrolink
Pittsburgh (Overbrook lines & Mt. Lebanon "T" lines)
Philadelphia (SEPTA Rapid Transit, Streetcars, Subway-Surface, Norristown, Red Arrow, Trolleybuses, PATCO)
San Francisco (Muni Metro, F-Market)
Bay Area Rapid Transit
San Jose LRT
Sacramento LRT
Cleveland (Red, Blue & Green)
Los Angeles (Red, Blue & Green)
Atlanta (MARTA)
Washington (Red, Blue, Green, Orange & Yellow)
Baltimore (Rapid & LRT)
New Orleans (St. Charles & Riverfront)
Denver LRT
Salt Lake City TRAX
Calgary C-Train
Edmonton LRT & Trolleybuses
San Diego Trolley
Dade County Metro (Miami) & MetroMover
I think that's it. (How many? 28?) The only glaring omission remains Dallas, but I hope to do something about that in 2003.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Subway/elevated/light rail lines where I have ridden 100% of the system:
Boston, as it existed in the winter of 1971-72, including elevated lines, also all segments constructed since that time up to the summer of 1993
Chicago, as it existed in the fall of 1978, including Skokie and Evanston lines
New York City, including many segments no longer in service or completely removed
SIRT as it existed in 1998
PATH as it existed prior to 09/11 and also in its earlier incarnation as the H&M, including Hudson Terminal
Newark, as it existed in the days of the PCC cars
Atlanta, as it existed in early 1994
Washington, DC, before the Green Line extension opened last year
Baltimore (both subway and light rail)
Barcelona, as it existed in 1972-73, including both the subway and the underground FC lines
Toronto (subway, not light rail, but including underground streetcar stations on the Harbourfront line from Union Station)
Philadelphia, including PATCO, the subway, and routes 100/101/102 (including 100 before it was cut back a couple of blocks to the Norristown Transportation Center)
Denver (light rail), as it existed last September
Pittsburgh (OK, so there's only a couple of underground stations, but...)
And, adding in electrified commuter rail...
CSS&SB, as it existed in November 1979
CNS&M, as it existed in December 1962 (just before abandonment in January 1963)
New York Central electrified territory, as it existed just before the Penn Central merger
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was hoping you'd mention Denver!:-)
Right now there's one line, 14 miles long. The Central Platte Valley Spur will add 1.8 miles to that total, and it's slated to open April 5. After that, the next line to open will be the 19-mile Southeast Corridor in 2006, if there are no construction delays. I-25 is being widened at the same time, and construction is getting into full swing now.
Montreal
Toronto
Boston
New York
Newark
Philadelphia/Patco
Baltimore
Washington
Miami
New Orleans
Cleveland
Chicago
Sacramento
San Francisco
Los Angeles
San Diego
London
Paris
Amsterdam
Brussels
Madrid
LIRR
Metro North
Septa
NJ Transit
Metra/Chicago
Amtrak across country NY to SF
I know they are not all subway, but lines I have ridden.
I rode the whole Fort Worth Subway in less than 15 minutes - Round Trip!!
I've ridden every line on NYC Transit except the Franklin Av Shuttle. I've ridden the full length of Miami Metrorail, and that part of Metromover which had been finished by 1987; I've ridden, over time, the full length of the Market Franford line in Philly and the Broad Street Line from Pattison to Olney (but not yet the elevated portion to Fern Rock). I have not ridden Route 100.
I've ridden parts of CTA, BART, the full length of MARTA (both north south and east west, but not the spur to Bankhead, nor the one to the auto plant); LA Red Line from Union Station to Western Av; and Boston's MBTA lines (full length of Red Line, Blue Line and parts of Green Line and Orange line). I've ridden nearly the full length of WMATA's Red Line and parts of all the other lines.
There are still a few NYC subway lines I've never been on:
The 1 between 168th and 242nd Sts.
The 3 between 135th and 148th Sts.
The 4 between Fordham or Kingsbridge (the one you can see Woodlawn or Concourse Yard from) and Woodlawn.
The R between 59th and 95th Sts.
The Rockaway Shuttle (Broad Channel and Rockaway Park).
The Astoria line from Queensboro Plaza and Ditmars Blvd.
The Clark St. tunnel.
Food for thought come October.
The only system I've ridden in full is Path (at least I've been through all the stations, I'm pretty sure I haven't taken all the connecting tunnels.)
I've ridden every line on the New York City Subway except the Rockaway Park Shuttle (sometime I have to ride it).
I've taken every line on the Washington, Boston, Philadelphia, Montreal, and Toronto (including Scarborough LRT) systems.
When I was in Paris, I rode every subway line except the 2, part of which was closed when I was there (I took some but not all of the RERs). The new 14 train is really nice.
All of DART Light Rail
Trinity Railway Express before it was expanded this past year to Fort Worth
CATS man?
All of DART... should that not be "All you DART are belongs to us"?
I've ridden all of Calgary's LRT system, as well as Hong Kong's metro and commuter rail lines.
...although some new lines in Hong Kong are popping up in the next couple of years which I hope to ride when they open.
-John!
Oh yeah, and I've ridden all of Toronto's subway, too.
Others:
- New York Subway: L, J, Z, D, Q (while still on 6th Ave), A, C
- Montreal Metro: Parts of the Orange, Green and Yellow Lines
- Vancouver SkyTrain: From Waterfront to Joyce Road
- Edmonton LRT: Downtown underground section
- Paris Metro: Lines 1, 2, 4, 6, 8
-John!
I did the entire Boston T in December, except a few stations between Reservoir and Riverside.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've done NYCTA of course. I've also done MBTA and MARTA as well. You'd think after living in the DC area since '96 I would've completed all of WMATA by now, but I haven't and it's only Glenmont (Red Line) and Huntington (Yellow Line) that I haven't covered as yet. I think I'll get it out of the way this weeekend. Glad you brought up the topic.
Wayne
Living in Philly, it's a must I completed the entire system, including the Regional Rail Lines. Heck, I live about eight blocks from the Route 13 Subway-Surface line, and four to six blocks (depending on which streets you avoid crossing) from Fernwood Station on the R3. In fact, living in Drexel Hill was the only time at which I lived near no rail lines. Born in 1982, it was: R6 at Wynnefield from birth to age 3, Route 34 at 60th & Baltimore ages 3-5, Route 10 at 63rd & Lansdowne ages 5-7, and now Routes 13 and R3 since 1997. Between D. Hill and Yeadon, lived off of 5th and South, six blocks from 5th St. Station on the Market-Frankford Line.
Okay, enough of that. Also have done the PATCO, despite having no reason to be in South Jersey, the NJT Atlantic City Line. (Lindenwold to AC - time restraints forced me to get my AC to Phila. ticket honored on the #551 bus to get home.) Rode NJT's Northeast Corridor Line as far as Newark for time restraints, and this was in August 2001. Planned to do NYC, but the crime factor kept me away. Then came 9/11/01. May hit NYC in the summer. Boston as well, since I have a cousin working for Adtranz up there. Baltimore's likely the next one.
DC was done in phases. Hit the city on my 16th and 17th birthdays, as well as July 4th, 1998. Visited for the opening day of the Green line's mid-city segment (and the end of the commuter shortcut to Farragut North), also for the completion of the final segment to Branch Avenue... then overworked the system on July 27th, 2001. I make a point to railan in DC twice a year, since it's my 2nd favorite system. (The first being SEPTA).
Lindenwold to AC...
Granted the South Jersey forests and farms can be pleasing to the eye of a city dweller, but to this South Jersey resident, the best part of the trip is from Lindenwold to 30th Street.
I played on the track(s) in Westmont from Maple Ave to the Cooper River trestle many years ago, then the Delair Bridge and the view of Philly therefrom are worthy, as well as traversing Frankford Jct, passing Juniata Terminal and hoping to see Bennett Levin's Pennsy E8's, then crossing the Schuylkill River, Arsenal Tower, Penn Coach Yard, and the approach to 30th Street Station cause me to prefer that part of the trip.
Maybe someone involved with Shore Line Trolley Museum can help me with this. I have a list of cars that are listed by various sources as being preserved at Branford, however I have been unable to either confirm or deny their existence. Here's what I've got:
Rhode Island Company #1575, a box motor built in 1912 by RI Co. Source: Interurbans Special #85, "Trolley to the Past" (Young, 1983)
Connecticut Company #0245, a snow plow built in 1916 by Russell. Source: Interurbans Special #85, "Trolley to the Past" (Young, 1983)
Brooklyn Rapid Transit #9499, a single-truck wedge plow built in 1898 by Taunton. Source: "Rosters of Equipment Preserved at Operating Electric Railway Museums" (Johnson, 1981)
Connecticut Company #1339, a streetcar built in 1910 by Osgood-Bradley. Source: Interurbans Special #85, "Trolley to the Past" (Young, 1983)
South Brooklyn Railway #9161, a work motor built in 1904 by "Baltimore" (???). Source: "Rosters of Equipment Preserved at Operating Electric Railway Museums" (Johnson, 1981)
Can someone help me with figuring out what happened to these pieces of equipment? THANKS!
Frank Hicks
Frank -
The first two I can't account for either, perhaps one of the other Branford members can help.
What you have listed as #9499 is probably #9799. The hyperlink will take you to the details on the BERA website.
Ditto for what you have listed as #1339 - it's probably #1330.
And #9161 is on the roster, built by Baltimore Steel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1575: It was a carbody only, scrapped mid-1980s.
0245: Ditto. This had been a ConnCo plow however it was
rarely used for plowing by ConnCo because of some
design defects that tended to derail it. The plow
blades were lost about the time it came to the museum
in 1947. The body was very deteriorated and missing
many important components, and it was scrapped in the
early 1990s.
9499: This is an error. The correct car # is 9799, and the
plow is still in the collection (in barn 6, if you
really want to see it)
1339: 1339 was one of the cars acquired in 1947-1948 direct
from ConnCo. The body was in poor condition. In the
1970s, we acquired another body, 1330 (aka 1333) and
the decision was made to scrap 1339. It wound up in
a Spaghetti warehouse although I don't know where. The
Standard O-50 trucks were saved.
9161: This car is still in the collection, stored outdoors.
Someone should really update those museum roster books that you cited.
There are some more cars no longer in our collection because of
trades since they were published, and I'm sure other museums are
in the same boat. Incidentally, our roster is online at
www.bera.org/collection.html
So that must mean 1339 was one of the lucky few to arrive at Shoreline under its own power before the line was severed.
I'd have to research that to be sure, but I think all of the ConnCo
cars (other than bodies 1330 and 1802 which were acquired much
later) came under their own power prior to March 1948.
When you stop and think about it, it was nice of the Connecticut Company to leave the Branford line tied into the rest of what was left of the New Haven division for a year after service had ended.
Jeff, thanks for all the info! I don't think there's a roster in existence that doesn't have a few mistakes in it. Of course, also part of the problem is that I've never seen an official Branford roster except for the one on your website. Do you guys have one for sale in the gift shop?
Anyway, I really appreciate the assistance - thanks!
Frank Hicks
The only printed roster is the guidebook. We are in the
process of revising that.
I've been thinking about it for quite some time and....didnt the connection to the Manhattan Bridge from Nassau Street meet up with the tracks that lead or come from the platform at Canal St used by the Q and W today? Cause i notice when the train passes by a certain part of the tunnel to the bridge i notice 2 tunnels that probably had tracks on them and my guess is one is for the 2nd ave subway,the other was from Nassau St.If that's true,then servering the connection to Nassau St shouldnt have been done.the M train couldve used it to go over the bridge then over Brighton to Coney Island just like it did back in the 1970's and we wouldnt have a Q diamond train which was kinda dumb to me really.
The topic is discussed extensively on this site. The trouble is the old Nassau Loop couldn't be used very efficeintly, and also the capacity on the MB is needed more to midtown than to downtown. Note that even with half the MB closed the Montague tunnel isn't at full capacity!
The Manhattan Bridge section of the FAQ covers this extensively.
...there's a hot one going around Corona Yard that when the 7 line goes to R62A's it will also cut back to 10 car consists. It's possible that there will not be enough single car R62A's to make up 33 trainsets for the 7 line and supply the Grand Central Shuttle and 3 line's 9 car consists as well. Stay tuned.
From what i understand,the R62A cars that have been running on the 1 train ever since they were put on that line are the ones that are gonna be on the 7 train and also those that have always ran on the 3 train while the 1&3 get the R62A's that used to be from Pelham on the 6.what I think it should be is those on the 1 train be sent to Corona Yard for use on the 7 and thats it.i mean we're talking about some 300+ cars (#2156-2475) The cars that are used for the 3 is good enough for the Grand Central Shuttle and for 9 car train sets.although i think it should be 10 car 3 trains like it is now since 9/11.
The reason why it's 9 car consists on the pre-9/11 (3) trains is because platforms on the Lenox Avenue section PAST where the (2) diverges from that tunnel.
Stuart, RLine86Man
If you check the archieved, I think that has been proven to be untrue, yes the 145 Street (I believe) platform is short, but it won't fit 9 or 10 cars. The legend was that a 10 car 3 train would block the switch where the 2 diverges, that has been proven not to be true on this board.
AND, if it were, why aren't the 10 car 3's that have been running since 9/11 causing any problems??????????????
And the El past Utica Avenue also can support 10 cars, since the (4) runs there at nights with a full 10 car consist....then was it because of the shortage of -62 singles? Or was it just a matter of not wanting to waste the space that empty cars would cause, especially very late at night.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Future Engineer, ACR
Future Engineer, VBNSF
Future Engineer, Virtual Amtrak
Future Engineer, NEC Freight
The only problem with 10 car #3 trains is in Lenox Yard, where some of the tracks are incapable of holding 10 car trains.
Why didn't they extend the platforms on 145th Street like they did with all the other stations?
- Lyle Goldman
As part of the project to extend Lenox service to 148th Street-Lenox Terminal (really part of Lenox Yard), service to the nearby 145th Street station was to have been discontinued upon the 148th Street station's opening. Thus, the platforms weren't extended when the others on the various IRT stations were. However, community pressure prevented NYCT(A) from abandoning the station, so to this day we have both 145th Street AND 148th Street. I'm not even sure that the 145th Street station COULD be extended - southward would probably be especially difficult, given the location of 142nd Street Junction (a flat junction where the Lenox branch and the White Plains Road branch meet/split).
David
Send the redbirds to the 1 for a 'blast from the past' fun in exchange for the 62/62A's
I've heard this rumor also. I doubt it will happen since the
amount of "customer" complaints would make the G crosstown
cutback fiasco look minor. If anything, the TA should be
looking into ways to increase capacity on the 7, not cut it.
I can understand car shortages on the B division, but on the IRT?
Don't have enough cars> Tough. Keep on running the rustbirds
until there are enough 142 and 142A cars operating reliably.
I totaly agree with you. The MTA, if the rumore comes out to be true, is making a very dire decision. Crowding is a very persistant problem, not only on the 7, but on the rest of the IRT. But expecting the MTA to increase capacity on the 7 right now seems very far-fetched.
This sounds like something the tabloids or any of the local TV stations would love to get their hands on, especially during sweeps month for the local stations:
"MTA Considering Cutbacks on No. 7 Service," could be the headline, and the story would go on to say that Flushing line riders will be seeing newer trains in the future, but there will be probably be more crowding on those trains after a decision to cut service from 11-car trains to only 10-cars on one of the city's most crowded routes. Guaranteed to either sell alot of papers and/or draw alot of viewers, and stir up a controversy at the same time.
It's just going to be weird to see "silver" on the 7 line.
Again, this is just a rumor. Management was trying to get a feel for whether or not the line would be adversely affected by cutting back to 10 cars since it is already done during the summer. Everybody questioned said that between the school kids and the rest of the work force, 10 car service would cause crowding and ultimately, lateness (there goes the on-time performance). I would think 10 cars would not be the first option but I fugure there must be a reason why the suits are even considering this in the first place.
I don't think they can cut the trains any shorter. It's a terribly busy line, and because it's IRT the cars are skinny and shorter than the B Division lines. The line is at it's max. They really should be thinking aboutr extending the plattforms to 12 cars or more!
think how strange it was to go from world's fair blue
to white, gray, then red?!
< there's a hot one going around Corona Yard that when the 7 line goes to R62A's it will also cut back to 10 car consists. >
I don't believe it, or they wouldn't be going though so much trouble to send single cars over there.
I know there's a track that leads to the Essex St station on the Nassau line after Broadway-Lafayette on 6th ave.Does anyone know if that track will ever be used again?Also why it isnt used now. I think a train from 6th ave to the Nassau St line is a good idea.
See the track maps. Can't connect 6thv Ave to Nassau St, only to the Williamsburg Bridge.
The 1939 city planning map shows that line going directly under the East River, and apparently finding its way onto Bushwick Avenue and then eventually out to Sheepshead bay via Utica Avenue.
After looking at their 1939 map, I find only one thing to say...
MAY PLANS AREN'T SO FAR FETCHED AFTER ALL!
Elias
There was also a plan at one time to build a branch under Flushing Av.
Service on the Broadway-Laf to Essex Street, the "K" train, didn't last very long - late 60's to early 70's. Unfortunately, at the time it ran only rush hours, and the neighborhood around the Broadway el went to deep hell. Now, I believe if given a second chance, the K train would do much better, especially because the neighborhood is showing some signs of rebirth, and if they would run it middays also. Unfortunately I don't think the TA is planning to give it a second chance at this time. Hopefully one day...........
There were two train sets laid up this morning at 30th St yard.
Anyone know why???
Maybe they're "incoming." Check the motor numbers and compare with the trainsets still to be accepted as listed here.
Acela express trainsets have been stored at 30th Street ever since they were first delivered.
I didnt realize you ride the Atlantic City Line also.
I live near the Lindenwold station, so I have a choice of PATCO and NJT's Atlantic City line to go into Philly. I prefer NJT for the scenery.
Is that 30th Street Yard in Philadelphia?
- Lyle Goldman
The yard is also known as the Penn Coach Yard & Race Street Yard
So I take it that's a yes.
- Lyle Goldman
I just created a webpage about the current status of Amtrak AEM-7s. Please feel free to give me some opinions.
Thanks a lot.
Chaohwa
The links to the pix make it easy to learn the spotting features.
Viva la Toasters!
I don't offenly ride the N to CI. But, I've ridden a couple of time in the past couple years. One thing I do know for sure was that there are two express tracks on Sea Beach Line (N)in Brooklyn between 8th AVE and 86th Street. I was wondering does the TA ever considering use those express anytime soon. Since the reopening of Manny B in 2004 is approaching. I think that it will be a wonderful idea to run the W as an express between 8th AVE and 86th Street to CI during [Rush hours/Middays/evening until 9:30 PM] beginning on the day when North Side of the Manny B return to Service. Therefore, u have the N running local and the W running express service making one stop at Kings Hwy, on sea beach line to/from CI. I've been giving a thought on this since 7/22/01. Does anyone here agree or disagree with this? Or maybe we could take another vote on this topic.
Your comments or remarks are welcome.
Coney Island-bound express track has been out of service (and disconnected) for a few years now; the Manhattan-bound express track is signaled bi-directionally.
Ridership doesn't support it.
--Mark
The Sea Beach express tracks were intended and used for a long-obsolete service, namely the Coney Island Express. The idea was to provide a swift, nonstop run to Coney Island for beachgoers who lived further away from Brooklyn; i. e., Manhattan and the Bronx.
You can read all about it here .
Thanks for the article
Don't mention it.
Does anyone disagree? Does a wild bear sleep in the woods? You bet I object. The W on the Sea Beach express tracks and the Sea Beach in that rat infested Montague tunnel going local. Your plan sucks. The Sea Beach should run on the Sea Beach tracks, not the W or the D, or the P or t he Z or the X or what the hell else comes to the fore. Come up with a better plan or saddle up.
Jesus christ Fred, Cool off would you? We're not here to insult one another base on what their idea was or what they trying say. We here to have fun just like other railfans does. It not like I'm gonna persuade the TA to consider my plan seriously and have it done by tommorrow. Relax, would ya?
The funniest part of all this is that Fred lives 3,000 miles from the "scene of the crime", I can picture him at his computer, palm trees swaying in the backround, light years away from any public transportation, taking swigs of Maalox as he cries about the disrespect given to the Sea Beach Line! But Fred, you know we love ya!
Taking swigs of Maalox? Don't you mean Geritol.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What do you think I was doing by giving you the rasberry? I was having fun, lots of it. Haven't you been reading my posts and Larry's and Bob's and Q's? We've been going after each other for the past few months. But if you keep coming up with those crackpot plans, the TA is just crackpot enough to take your idea into consideration. OK, as a favor to me, come up with another plan that puts my train on the bridge and we'll call it even. All in fun, believe me. Have a great weekend.
PS Don't take the Lord's name in vain. Not a good idea.
Let put it this way, I dying to see the N returning to the Bridge as bad as u want it happen in 2004. Its not up to me to decide on how to run the TA system. As I mentioned on my previous post on "Possible Plan in 2004/2005", I eventually did up with plan of running N over the bridge 24/7 when the North Side Manny B return to service. I guess u didn't read that part or maybe u forgot what I've said in that post. Just as bad I wanted N to return to the bridge by 2004, I guarantee u, if the TA won't return N over the bridge by 2004. I'm gonna be the first person to launch a protest on that issue and I hope u'll join me. SO R WE FRIENDS NOW!
Yes Express M we are friends now. I thought we always were. You see I did fool you. You thought I was mad. I only get mad at the TA, not my colleagues on Subtalk----well just one. Anyway, we will have to wait it out and sweat it out until the TA makes up its mind. Have a great day.
U have every right to get mad at TA because they didnt run N over the bridge at the beginning of 7/22/01. I was eventually mad at that time. If I don't see that N over the bridge by Oct 2004, my anger will fire up.
One of the problems of the Sea Beach Express is that there are no express stations after Stillwell. I don't think there are that many people starting at stillwell to warrant express service. If there were some stations in between it would be more practical. By the way one of the express tracks are officially out of service.
Years ago alot of new equipment got tested on the sea Beach express tracks. I know in the 60's or 70's was the last time they ran some sort of super express on the Sea Beach, but I think it started Brighton Beach (or somewhere other than Stillwell) and ran through Stillwell before entering the Sea Beach Express.
That was the NX. About the only people who ever rode on it were railfans. Low ridership killed it.
With one express track unuseable,this idea is completely shot down to no mans land.maybe skip-stop service would be a better suggestion.
If Fred wasn't in a good mood today, he'd massacre you for even thinking of that idea. But since he is in a good mood, I digress.
But seriously, if the N and W were to be on the Sea Beach, what would be on the West End? I thought rumors recently have the W sticking with the B on West End.
The way I see your idea, combined with some other feasible plans and current service patterns:
D = 6th Ave/Brighton Local to Coney Island
Q = Broadway (*sigh*)/Brighton Express to Brighton Beach with Coney extention during Rush
B = 6th Ave/West End Local to Coney Island
M = Nassau St/West End Local to 9th Ave, Bay Pkwy or Coney during Rush
F = 6th Ave/Culver Express to Coney Island PEAK DIRECTION ONLY DURING RUSH
V = 6th Ave/Culver Local to Church or Kings Highway
N = Broadway/Sea Beach Local to Coney Island, Skip-stop PEAK DIRECTION ONLY DURING RUSH
W = Broadway/Sea Beach Skip-Stop to Coney Island, Skip-stop PEAK DIRECTION ONLY DURING RUSH
R = Broadway/Bay Ridge to 95th Street
Overall, I think the W may be better off on the West End as it is now, and when the B returns, the B and W serenades the WEnd. A better suggestion may be running the M on Sea Beach with N during Rush Hours as Skip-Stop, and all other times the M would run the Bay Ridge.
Just another wacky idea that may or may not work...
-John!
No, its not wacky idea! As matter of fact this perfect.
Eventually, I was thinking of that too since u brought it up.
I like you're idea of leaving the W on the West End line. That is what I believe should be done. Leave the W on the West End line, running 24/7, which is what's probably going to happen when the F and Q platforms at Stillwell close for reconstruction. IIRC, Stillwell construction is supposed to last beyond 2004, so they'll need to keep the W. Run the B as a weekday-only service to Bay Parkway and leave the W as the main West End line service.
Like this:
B - Monday-Friday 6 AM-midnight: Runs from 145th Street (Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx during rush hours), Manhattan, to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn. Local to 59th Street, Manhattan and express 59th St to 36th Street, Brooklyn. Via 6th Avenue express and Manhattan Bridge.
W - All times. Runs from Ditmars/Astoria to Coney Island. Local in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn. Via Broadway Local and Montague Tunnel.
I'm surprised Fred didn't have a heart attack.........
Keep the W off the Sea Beach, period.
Maybe we could consider the M as a Local to Kings Highway with the N Express to Coney Island, because the M did do some service after 9/11.
But the M is really a Brighton local without a home, and Fred would never agree to it.
But the M is really a Brighton local without a home
Or is it a Culver Local (via 4th Av, NOT Smith St) - at least it did that before it did the Brighton.
I didn't know that. So the M actually ran it's current route to the route of the Culver shuttle, and then the route of the F train. Pretty cool....
I'm not so sure you would call that train the M.
The Culver Line used to be known as the #5 - BMT Line. But since the Culver used Standards and not Fred's beloved Triplex's, it wasn't too well known. My dad never referred to it as the #5.
The Culver Line used to run to Chambers Street. The local ran through the Montague Street tunnel to Chambers, and the Express during rush hours over the South Side of the Manhattan Bridge then down to Chambers Street. (I think) There may have been a few Culver local runs that went up to Metropolitan instead of heading back towards Brooklyn, although I'm not sure.
So the route of the Culver Local was much the same as today's M in Brooklyn, at least from 9th Avenue, up 4th Avenue, and then via Montague and Nassau.
But the original M ran from Metropolitan to just Broad Street, then was extended to Coney Island via Brighton. So I still consider it a Brighton local without a home.
Do any of you Brighton guys claim ownership of the M?
According to this website (http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/subway-markers.html), the letter M was used on the real Culver line between 1964 and 1967. It only became a Brighton train in 1973. Prior to 1964, the Culver was indeed the 5 and the Myrtle the 10.
The list for M between 1964 and 1967 said Culver or 4th Avenue.
However, by 1964, the Culver Line was already reduced to a single track shuttle between 9th Avenue and Ditmas Avenue. I don't believe that any trains were signed up "M" for Culver Shuttle service. I do remember seeing "SS" as a kid.
It was the 4th Av. specials, as well as the Brighton specials that were M. Never the Culver (which as was said, was permanantly a shuttle by then. The Metropolitan service was #10, of course. I have speculated that the Culver-Nassau service might be what P was reserved for, had it ran into the 60's.
I agree, I didn't realize that the the Culver train he was talking about didn't really always go to Metropolitan. I feel the Metropolitan is the M's real home. The M wouldn't be ther M without at least haveing one of it's terminals being Metro.
The "M" is a vagrant in search of a home. Used to be Met to Whitehall or somewhere in Manhattan as a south terminal. Then again, it was once PART TIME in addition to the MJ ...
Way to go Selkirk!!!!
Mmmmmmooo. :)
They should never have demolished the MJ Line!
Agreed ... you would have thought the folks along the third avenue El in the Bronx would have learned from that history as well, but that too got knocked down and all we got was this cheapo bus as well. Did the Myrt many times and it was a real treat with the Q's still running on it ...
I often forget that the "real route" of the current M line north of Broadway is really the Myrtle Ave. That's one of the things I really feel bad for not having the chance of seeing, along with Penn Station. Both were robbed from me before I was born.
The MJ was a fairly rickety ride, but it was a nice old el with island platforms at most stops. Non-rush hour, if you were coming from Fresh Pond/Met, you'd have to get off the MJ and go downstairs for the Jamaica line - rush hours, the M would run and take you across the bridge for a one seat ride. But the M was a part-timer ... and only went down to the loop and no further ...
I went through what was left of Penn Station in 1965, but can't remember anything except the announcer's voice over the loudspeakers.
Whatever, it just does not belong on the Sea Beach, not now ,not tomorrow and not next month, year, or century. It is the West End and leave it there. My buddy Jeff would appreciate that. I repeat, the W is now a BMT West End, and while I'm about it we ought to keep the B and D in the Bronx and Manhattan where they belong. They are not BMT trains and the very idea of combining the great Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit with the IND was a catastrophe from the beginning.
R-16, you're friend old buddy, I never would agree to such a ridiculous plan. Our Sea Beach has been castigated enough and it's time to show it a little respect. Maybe rebuild those express tracks so they run in both directions, fix the stations that leak and peel paint and prepare to return our train to the bridge at the first opportunity. Making it an express again would also be preferable. But I don't work for the TA so once again here I sit writing and feeling a voice in the wilderness----with one exception. I seem to have gathered a host of supporters who seem to understand my frustration and are now thinking along the same lines as I do. To those of you who fit that description you have my undying loyalty.
Having the Sea Beach run over the bridge is a perfectly reasonable thing to do because most riders want to go to midtown rather than downtown. Downtown is probably very adequately served by the M and the R, and the only reason the N goes there is lack of capacity on the bridge (for now). None of us can predict the TA's plans, but they are usually sensible though on the stingy side.
But a Sea Beach express (between CI and 36th St Brooklyn) makes no sense. There are no intermediate express stops. You'll get a quarter train full at most at CI and then no more till 4th Avenue. There are far more critical uses of rolling stock, which all our tax dollars pay for.
I agree completely woth the bridge idea, unfortunately as for the long express run between 36 and CI, I don't see that happening until if or when Coney Island has a renissaince. Just not enough passengers starting at CI. Unfortunately the "beauty" of the fact that the Sea Beach was a "super-express" when it was built without intermidiate stations contributes to it's demise. I'm truly sorry Fred, my sympathies.
GP: Thanks for your support. Hard to take the way my favorite train is now. Maybe the pendulum will swing the other way. But boy oh boy, what I wouldn't give to have express tracks running in both directions and intermediate stations put at several points on the route to make it a real express. I can dream.
Your last paragraph, though hard to take, is probably right on the mark. The chances of making our Sea Beach an express from CI to 36th Street might be a little too much, unless Coney Island suddenly becomes a mecca for thousands of more tourists and it becomes the amusement park it once was OR the Brooklyn Cyclones start drawing humungous crowds. But I do believe that it could become the Broadway express in Manhattan again and run express on Fourth Avenue. I used to love to see the Triplex ram down that street as a kid. We used to zoom past so many stations. Wow it was my favorite tunnel ride of all.
That's why we need to get your approval before we run anything other than a #4 or N designated train along the Sea Beach. Didn't think you would go for it..............
I'd be happy with Express service between 59th Street, Brooklyn and 57th Street in Manhattan, via the Bridge and skipping DeKalb during rush hours.
Also, the N doesn't belong in Astoria - send the Q up there along with the W. It used to go there before Chrystie Street along with the West End.
And to all you Brighton guys, here is something to think about. Remember the NX as that alternative to Brighton Express service. Hmm, a train leaving Brighton Beach going towards Coney Island and then up the Sea Beach Express was in theory faster than a Brighton Express making all those stops........
Great post R-16. To be sure I am very biased on the subject, I admit that, but you certainly made sense about the Q and W going to Astoria. I have never accepted that the N had to go there. To me that almost guaranteed that the line would become a local. Just about every train that went there was a local. The Sea Beach Express is the Broadway-Sea Beach, and should go from 57th Street or Times Square to Coney Island.
I'm just looking to goad those Brighton guys into a fight...........
It really is a lot of fun getting their goat. What we have over them is that we can rail and moan but take it while they claim nothing bothers them but they just burn inside when we diss them.
Buffalo Chips, as a old Sioux Nation Friend of mine used to say
They're great with onion dip. (or was that sheep dip?) :)
Fred Hates Onions
Well then, we'll have to feed him some lamb. Dunno about this trip then - if onions are a problem, then kraut will probably kill the boy. I can't do NYC without some Sabretts done up right. :)
You can always ask Fred to hold his nose.:-)
Kraut is fine by me. I love it on hot dogs, which I admit I don't eat too many of. But Onions? Please, n ot even in a joke. I once broke u p with a girl who tried to make me like onions. I dropped her on the spot. This is real serious shit with me.
Wow ... hop on the couch, pal ... now tell me all about it. :)
But Onions? Please, not even in a joke.
Too bad, Fred... guess you'll never have any of my Veal Marsala... I put a few scallions in along with the mushrooms...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just about what I would expect from a rebel confederate. I hope they tasted good but I would have heaved. You know about our trip coming up, don't you? Maybe you can come up, too.
I'm planning on it, Fred... I'll be there with my Confederate uniform on :-)
Unless, of course, it's Autumn in New York at Branford that weekend, in which case I'll have other responsibilities.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We might follow you there then.:-)
You must have told Linda up front about that when you met her, eh?:-)
I welcome the switch b/t the N and R terminals. The biggest reason was the fact the N was technically the only express on Queens Blvd.. But it was making local.. Now... There's no express service running through Queens Blvd which limits the confusion.
N Broadway Line
In the classified section of todays NY Post (I saw it in the paper, don't know if classified ads are posted on their website), there is a reletively large "legal notice" type ad where the MTA is asking for prelimary proposals to design and build a new car washer/maitenance facility at the Corona yards and to demolish the existing facility.
Could this be related to the much discussed potential move of R62a's (or maybe R-142's-it has been said a new maitenance facility that can handle the roof mounted A/C units would be needed to allow 142's to operate on the #7) or is it just routine construction. It says the value of the contract was in excess of $10 millon.
Piggo
The contract solicitation and scope of work are posted under Architectural/Engineering Solicitations on the MTA website.
This has been a rumor pre-dating the arrival of the 142. Corona Yard is to be expanded even further back to Flushing Creek (or whatever that water is). For the past three years, they been drilling in an attempt to find solid rock for anchoring - it would seem they've finally done it.
Makes sense, as the bid proposal says the winner must be experienced in constrution on piles and pile driving.
Hi,
I flew up yesterday from atlanta to conn. then today I took the MNRR from Darien to GCT. I used to take the MNRR everyday and miss it a lot :)
Anyway... how fast do the mnrr trains go? To me it seemed at points we went about 65 or so...
LOVE THE 1 HR RAILFAN WINDOW!!!
Allen
There is one segment on the Harlem Line where the trains may sometimes exceed 80 mph. This segment runs from the Chappaqua to the Mount Kisco stations.
#3 West End Jeff
On the stretch from north of New Rochelle to just north of Mamaroneck, the line is straight and the limit, I believe, is at least 75 for MNR. It might be higher for Amtrak.
I know the limit in Connecticut is usually over 60, because there is a GO that limits speed (due to the older wire configuration) to 60 if the temperature is under 32 or over 90.
The NY Segment of the NH line is rated for 90 mph. The next bit to Stamford is 60 and from there to New Haven it is 75 officially, 90 in reality for some MNRR engineers.
i once clocked one at 92 mph. it was a express to gct from new haven
Was it the 5:17 Super Express? God that's a fun ride. All I know is that the M2's overspeed at 90mph. You'll hear the cab signal whsitle go off in the cab. B/T SHELL and the NY Border my train was overspeeding like every 30 seconds. After Stamford, he generally kept it to 75 (the official MAS), but a few times he got it up to 90 and had the overspeed trip go off.
I thought the New Haven was good for 90 MPH operation? Hey, I say the faster the better!! Nice operating!! :-)
On New Haven division MNCR also can hit about 90MPH somewhere near Larchmont. Hudson division is mostly limited to between 60 and 75 MPH with numerous speed restrictions for a variety of reasons.
It was also a kick to blow past a station at 75-80 mph while on the outer track. No horn blasts, no nothing.
Oh good! I will shoot this on video this summer!
how far does the electric go? & how much does to cost
roundtrip ??
right on good post !!.........lol!
What about the speeds in the city? I was standing on the Fordham/Bronx Zoo platform and a train zipped by on the outside track, only a few feet from me. Caused quite a breeze
In his book, "Change at Ozone Park," the author laments that the City allowed the LIRR Rockaway line to rot north of the "A" connection instead of putting it to good use.
I was wondering - how could the TA have used the Rock line? What existing subway line could have connected to it to make it useful? One thought I had was building a ramp from the elevated BMT Broadway line (today's J/Z) at about 100th Street to connect with the Rock line, which crosses directly below it at that point. In fact, IIRC the old Brooklyn Manor LIRR station used to lie directly below the BMT line. A spur line could then have been built for service to Woodhaven, et al.
Just a thought.
The thought for many years was to build a LIRR train to the plane from NY Penn to JFK using this right of way.
I've always thought they could use the bellmouths at 63 Drive to route a local line down there and to Rockaway Park.
Actually, it wouldn't even have to be a real line. One train every 20 minutes would be more than enough (and 3tph on the local track wouldn't hurt the QB line's capacity issues much).
Or, they could do the above only as far as Metropolitan Ave (Parkside) or Woodhaven Blvd. Possibly an alternative terminal so the G could come back (since apparently most of the traffic problems would occur at 71/Continental). And maybe extend the Rockaways shuttle north to Ozone Park.
The original idea was to operate a little bit further north to a connection with the BMT Jamaica Line, but this would only have been a walking connection. This connection would have been in addition to the physical connection to the Liberty Avenue Line.
This would have given riders an additional choice besides the Fulton Street Line but I'm not sure it would have worked operationally. Perhaps Rockaway Park trains could have gone to Jamaica Avenue and the Far Rock trains through-routed--but that would have created connection headaches.
Perhaps a return of the "K" train and delete the Z. Instaed of going to Canarsie, it could down ramp after Woodhaven Blvd, to the Rockaway Branch.
Evict the School Bus Squatters, restore the Atlantic and Ozone Park stations and express to Broad Channel then on to Rock Park.
The "A" will still serve Aquaduct and Howard Beach. If its not feasible, both "A" and "K" will serve Aquaduct, Howard Beach and Broad channel and change trains at any station depending on the travelers desired route.
Options:
1) Express track installed above Jamaica Ave.
2) Jamaica Ave By-pass between Cypress Ave and Eastern Parkway
3) Platfrom lenghting to 660 ft. along B'way and Jamaica Ave.
4) restore tracks all the way to the Montauk Branch, to tease the NIMBY's to the north on what they are missing out on!
avid
My plan would be to revitalize the Rockaway LIRR line, and terminate it at JFK/Howard Beach. You have a four track right of way there. You could build a two-island-platform four track station there, with the TA passing through on the western 2 tracks, and the LIRR terminating there on the eastern 2 tracks. You'd have to throw up a fence down the middle, to keep them dang "railroad" guys out of the subway! ;-)
dave
Dave, sounds like a solid plan to me...
BMTman
"sounds like a solid plan"
that's the problem; It needs a giant compromise of some kind!
db
Well, your heart's in the right place, and it would be nice if we could have it.
Major practical problems have been extensively discussed in previous threads. They include encroachment onto ROW, serious deterioration of ROW, sections of ROW very very close (50 feet) from private homes, and far higher budget priorities elsewhere. And then there's significant NIMBY...
The Rockaways need more transit development. One LIRR line does go to the NYC part of the Rockaways, but only its terminus serves NYC residents at the far east end. The A train serves it, but it doesn't go far enough west, in my opinion, along the peninsula.
Ferry service is an option which can be accomplished in thew near to medium term. Adding a new crossbay LIRR or subway line (not the Rockaway Line itself) is another long-range option.
Hope springs eternal...
Of course, my plan is a "best of all possible worlds plan," (like most of mine.)
I walked the line on one of MarkW's trips, and the only serious encroachments are the condo parking lot and the School Bus yard. Rudy was the kind of mayor that would have just kicked them right off the property.
The NIMBY's are tougher. I just drove around the SF BART extension to the airport, and almost the entire thing was built in subway for no reason other than NIMBY whining. This included some residents who have already got at least 4TPH going by them for CalTrain service. It was a colossal waste of $$$.
Quite easily I think is the short answer to your question.
The key to it all is South Fourth Street station.
As you might know it was planned to be connected to from Manhattan by three lines:
- one leaving the A-C-E line where the E train branches off to go into Chambers WTC station. Instead of using this station it would continue under Worth St.
- one from the centre tracks at Second Avenue on the F line.
- one from the Second Avenue line south of 14th Street, crossing the tracks from the F line at Clinton St, where there would be a station.
Once at South 4th Street several eastern branches were at various stages planned. The significant one for this topic is the Flushing Avenue Subway - 2 tracks all the way to Horace Harding Boulevard (it would actually have continued along Grand Av or something). This would have a junction to both directions on a line from Roosevelt Avenue which would have become the Rockaway Line.
Therefore, the following uses could have been made of it, if the Second System had been built:
- 8th Av Local - Worth St - Flushing Av - Rockaway
- 6th Av Local - Houston St - Flushing Av - Rockaway
- 2nd Av Local - Flushing Av - Rockaway
- Roosevelt - Rockaway
Now, not all of those would have been used, but it could have become quite useful.
The Rockaway line was to terminate on the Queens Blvd line at Roosevelt or connect at 63rd Drive. It's a real lost, since the area in between has no rail service to Manhattan. There was a station at the Jamaica el and the old Rock called Brooklyn Manor, and there was a station on Metropolitan called Parkside. I'm sure they would have added others also. I don't think there was ever a plan to connect it to the Jasmaica el.
In the Forgotten NY website there is a discussion about the old Whitestone LIRR line and how it was offered to the City upon its abandonment. The City turned down the offer and the line was demolished.
Question: How could this line have been used? I guess a connecting ramp could have been built from the 7 line before the line submerges into the Main Street subway station.
Any ideas?
How about extending the M train? Free transfer to Queens Boulevard at Woodhaven Bvd, then up the Long Island Expressway, College Point Bvd, then ramps down onto the Whitestone Line.
I always thought about extending the M line along the route of the NY connecting Railroad, whic Parallels the M line at Metropolitan. This would have given rail access to central Queens.
The Whitestone was abandoned, just when it should have remained. The area was just being built up around the time it was abandoned. If it had lasted a little longer it would probably survived to meet the subway. Unfortunately we lost alot of lines that currently would be useful in the 30's because of the depression. Another line that would be so useful now (not to the subway but for the LIRR) is the Port Jefferson to Wading River line in Suffolk. What a shame that line was lost. The area could really use it now, it's also was a victim of the depression.
>> Another line that would be so useful now (not to the subway but for the LIRR) is the Port Jefferson to Wading River line in Suffolk. What a shame that line was lost. The area could really use it now, it's also was a victim of the depression. <<
At least that right of way still exists, if anyone ever gets the smarts to utilize it. The ROW through Rocky Point BEGS for a railroad and train station. It is still visible about a block north of the old Route 25A.
At least that right of way still exists, if anyone ever gets the smarts to utilize it. The ROW through Rocky Point BEGS for a railroad and train station. It is still visible about a block north of the old Route 25A.
Yeah, some of the bridges are even still there --- after over 60 years!
>> Yeah, some of the bridges are even still there --- after over 60 years! <<
I do recall seeing an old bridge on the Wading River right of way, but I can't find it any more; I suspect that it may have been removed in the last few years.
It was there as of March of last year, but after that I can't Guarantee, that's the last time I was there.
I have some information here
Since the transfer was going to be from the LIRR to the city, and the proposal was made in the 1920s, the Flushing Line option wouldn't have been workable then, since the line was still a joint IRT/BMT operation.
However, if the city had gotten hold of it and just kept the ROW for a decade, the ideal situation would have come up in 1939, when the IND extended it's line from Continental Ave. up the current Van Wyck ROW to the World's Fair. Had the city owned the Whitestone branch at that time, it would have required only a little effort to continue the extension further north on the Van Wyck ROW to Roosevelt Ave., where a link could have been made to the Whitestone line.
If that had happened, Robert Moses would never have been able to pave over the route after the fair closed and make it a highway-only route, and either the R or the V train today would be serving residents in the north-central part of Queens.
If that had happened, Robert Moses would never have been able to pave over the route after the fair closed and make it a highway-only route...
The IND had never intended to keep the World's Fair line as permanent. And it was not Robert Moses who paved over it. The line was long gone when the Van Wyck Expressway Extension opened in 1964.
It anyone had the brains at the time,the City perhaps could have acquired the line and have it incorporated into the subway system. Is any portions of the ROW still exist which I doubt at this point,a new line could be built where it existed.
#3 West End Jeff
A political pipe dream we will never see that in our lifetime. They have been talking about extending to Lynn since I was a kid in the 70's . Stevie
Where does Amtrak Acela hit 150 MPH? I heard somewhere in RI or lower Mass. Can someone comfirm that?
Presently on the Northeast Corridor, there's only 18 miles of 150 mph, all on straight track: 8 miles in Rhode Island and 10 miles in Massachusetts. At that speed you're doing 2.5 miles per minute. Acela will eat up the Massachusetts stretch in 4 minutes. In a little over 3 minutes, the Rhode Island topspeed running is history.
Probably even less time than that, since it takes time to accelerate/decelerate.
With time, that will expand. The NE Corridor has places cleared to 135 mph and some runs have been done at 140.
The tracks Trenton to Newark and North Philly to Trenton seemed pretty good. I was on an acela regional once that was going so fast Trenton to North Philly that, if all trains went that fast, we wouldn't need an acela express. The big problems are NYC-New Haven and getting in and out of big stations.
Between NYC and New Rochelle, the NEC there is good for 100 MPH operation. The slow part comes from New Rochelle north to New Haven, which is good for, right now, 90 mph. As for the big terminal thing, NYC will be NYC....DELAYS!! I mean there is nothing that can be done about the fact that Amtrak/Acela service has to share tracks with the LIRR (which traffice is heavy enough, not counting the NUMEROUS light equipment moves made during the middays and afternoons, nighttime moves to Hillside Yard east and West Side near Penn), Sunnyside Yard traffic (Amtrak and NJ Transit layups coming in and out of the yard at lower speeds) and many times the various MOW trains and rail vehicles moving around the area all in the NY Metropolitan Region, SEPTA and CSX freights in Philly area. Those slowups will be around for QUITE a while to come. The ONE known location where, believe it or not, 150 mph operation is done, is located (get this) between Providence and (if I remember right) somewhere south of Route 128 station!! It's a very short stretch, but the line there is upgraded enough (and little catenary arcing) to allow 150 mph operation. Work is in progress for the south end of the NEC, but right now Amtrak is having A LOT of government money troubles, so don't look for significant, big time upgrade work to be tackled at this time.
That's correct... the 150 mph stretch in Massachusetts is from just south of Canton Junction (past Sharon, Mansfield, and Attleboro) to South Attleboro. I often stand on the Mansfield platform waiting for the MBTA commuter rail when the AE goes by at 150 mph. Hoo-boy!
Wow! That must be a rush.
Yeah that ol' girl is fast!! When I worked the N line at Astoria, where the Hell Gate approach goes right over our right of way, I loved watching it come across at around 50 or 60, and that train is one quiet train. If I'm not looking I don't know it's there until it comes zingin' on by!! (I was upset when one day I forgot to bring my camera to work when i was assigned there, and could have nailed a nice shot of the southbound Acela, looking practically nose to nose with northbound CSXT freight Y-101 and it's 4 "Big Blue" SD40-2s leading.....it would have been an awesome on the bridge shot!!) Hey a lot could be said for the HHP-8 too, especially when on Thankgiving while waiting for a NY bound NJ Transit train at Linden station I saw one hauling the NY-New Orleans Crescent southbound at about 95 mph!! Yeah they're speeders alright!!
Between SHELL and New Haven, the trains are TIMED at 75mph PLUS about 20 mins padding for MetN dispatching snails PLUS any wait times for MetN trains to go past. If you look in the schedules, 75 miles or so is covered in 90 minutes.
I believe the official MetN sources show 75mph as the top line speed in the area, although speeding is common, even by MetN engineers. The wires will take about 90mph, beyond 90mph the wires can tangle, there may not be enough braking distance for signals, structures can fail, etc, etc, lots of bad things can happen.
THIS IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE STATE OF ASSET UTILIZATION. (or for the customers, for that matter). ConnDOT should be charged the amount of "wasted" asset time whilst the expensive Fed-paid-for Amtrak trainsets traverse their territory. Let's see:
Acela Trainset = $30,000,000 approx
Interest Rate = about 10%
Amortization over 15 years gives monthly payment of $329,000
Potential daily utilization hours = 18 hrs
Maintenance hours per day = about 2 hrs/day (to include blackout time for overhauls and day-to-day maintenance)
Available hours = 16 hrs/day
Acela time priced at = 329,000/16 = $20,500 per hour (conservative, since not all trainsets get 16 hrs/day of utilization)
MetN schedule = 80 mins
Schedule if MetN tracks were upgraded for 120mph = about 55 mins
Time wasted per trip over MetN = 25 mins
Traversals per day = 8 Southbound, 9 Northbound = 17 traversals/day @ 25 mins each @ $324/min-Acela-time...
Daily sum owed by MetN to Amtrak/Federal Government = $145,511.
Annual sum = $38.6 million.
Lexcie
Just realized I forgot to divide by 30. All the numbers quoted should be divided by 30, so that the daily sum owed is $4,850 and annual sum is $1,285,000.
Lexcie
[re sums Metro North should owe Amtrak for delayed Acelas]
Interesting calculation, but the problem is that both Metro North and Amtrak are taxpayer-subsdized. Your idea would essentially result in taxpayers paying penalties to themselves.
Its called "one hand paying the other" and it is a way of changing various funding ratios. For example I knew one guy who would dodge parkway tolls when driving a NJ Government vehicle owned by a state university. After a while the university started getting billed for the parkway evasion fines.
The speed limit on MN trackage is not from the wires as much as from the curves.
When the Acela Express was designed with its tilt feature (which allows it to run at higher speeds on curves) they didn't take into account that the tracks were close enough that if the Acela took a curve at its highest possible speed and there were a conventional train on the outside track there would be contact. (Not a good idea). So, the two possibilities were (a) expanding the row and moving the tracks apart or (b) slowing down the Acela.
The new MN catenary system (in NY and being extended to New Haven over the next few years) should allow 90+ speeds. As I said in an earlier post, the old wiring requires restrictions to 60 when it is too hot (over 90) or too cold (under 32).
Finally, the ongoing MN construction (bridge expansion, new wiring, and Stamford station reconstruction) takes one track out of service for a good portion of the run. Perhaps in 3 years when this work is done the speed limits will rise.
Amtrak uses the same catenary system from SHELL to OAK and its linespeed is 100mph. I think that MNRR just dosen't want to upgrade its track to class 6 (110mph) standards.
Why is it that MN has put concrete ties on the outside tracks, but not the inside ones?
Taking all 4 tracks out of service all at once would be a commuter nightmare. Give them some time.
No.
Amtrak uses the same catenary, but the limits are nowhere near 100mph for all but a 2 mile stretch of track. It's mostly 50 and 60mph running. In fact, it takes more time (almost 2 times as much) for Amtrak to go NYC to New Rochelle, then it does for Amtrak to go New Rochelle to Stamford. Yet New Roc City is almost smack dab halfway between the two.
The limit on MN is 70 to 75 mph due to catenary, and with drops to 40 or less due to curves and bridges. There's a 4 mile stretch of 90mph running in NY.
Contrary to popular belief, this is the fastest the New Haven Line has ever been. Pre Metro-North, it was 70mph, tops.
The Acela's tilt feature is not to allow faster running, it's for passenger comfort. Because the Acelas were built too wide (a design decision by Amtrak), Metro-North has a very legitamate concern that a mis tilting Acela might strike a passing train. The clearances on the New haven line are the tightest on the NEC, and the tracks are closer together than on any other segments.
Because of the curves, there's very few places where 90mph running can occur, anyway. Maybe New Haven to Devon, if that much. There's no way you'll ever see 120mph on the New Haven Line, regardless of who owns it, unless MAJOR realignment occurs.
I'm not sure how you managed to come up with a 22 minute saving by bumping the MAS on the NH line, but since you can't get the speed limits right, I'm going to assume you're ignoreing the speed restrictions at various points due to the curves. I once read an analysis by an MN engineer, using the current ETT, and not factoring acceleration, and the savings from bumping the MAS up to 110mph was about 5 minutes. That's something you can easily save by having shorter dwell times at stations. And that's something that costs zero dollars and zero time to implement. But Amtrak dosn't want to.
Finally, your figures don't allow for extra maintenace involved with running an extremely overweight trainset at high speeds. That would be a significant amount. You also don't allow for cleanup and delays due to derailments or collisions, or the lawsuits arising from them, or the repairs. Nor did you include extra electrical costs.
Philip, you're right on target about the tilting... it's solely for passenger comfort. In fact, the power cars never tilt, even at 150 mph. You can hear the tilt go on and off (normally at about 20 mph) -- it's a subtle "hummmmmmm...." with a perceptable "click" as it goes on and off. On one trip, a conductor was nearby when we entered MN territory. I heard on his radio the engineer confirm to the dispatcher that the "tilt is off."
Will the "C" Train see any R-143's or R-42's?
And will the "A" Train see any new trains?
Probably a "no" to both, for now anyway. Though certainly those cars could run on both of those lines sometime in the future, but for now it seems the R143 is meant for the eastern division lines ((J)(L)(M)(Z)) only.
Whatever the case, the R143s might indirectly contribute to increasing the stock available to these (and other) B-division lines. I don't think they'd send R42s to The (A) and (C), BUT they could send slant R40's to the (N), which in turn gives its R32s to the (A) and (C). Or something like that.
:-) Andrew
There's only 60 R-32's left on the N, so after the R-40's from the L bump those out, the modified 40's will start coming over. But after the space held by those 32's is filled up, there won't be anything else to shift elsewhere, so I was recently wondering if 40m's would begin showing up on the C, and the 32's there shift to Jamaica.
Where will the R42's go?
They would most likely be sent to other yards (CI or Jamaica) to help expand the fleets there.
Interesting. R42s on Queens Blvd. That would be cool.
:-) Andrew
Is the Conductor's Position on the C train between the 4th and 5th cars? If that's the case, the R40's and 42's probably won't work out on the C. Those cars were built to be used on [6,10] car trains.
HAPPY V DAY EVERYONE. V LOWER E. SIDE, V 2 AV, VIA 53RD ST, V 6 AV LCL.
LOL SERIOUSLY HAPPY VALENTINES DAY
Insignificant holiday dug up by the flower and chocolate concession to increase sales in the depths of the season of death.
I was waiting for a R train at Queens plaza this morning to get to lexington avenue. this was around 9am. The trains stop was queens plaza because it would not go better than 20mph. Is that because of low battery or such
Probably DEAD MOTORS, the bane of the R32s existence.
wayne
I've been on an R40 where almost 2 times the load was stuffed on. It barely made 20. An R40 crapped out along the way and mine picked up the slack. It was full as in you don't need a pole because everyone's holding each oher up with no where to fall.
Now THAT'S crush loading!
20 mph? Isn't that warp speed for NYCT?
Comming out from the portal on the Jamaica line in queens on a R40M we barely made it to 12MPH. The train was mostly empty too.
Warp speed? what u talkin about? Son NYCT subway may not be lightning speed, but i sure prefer it over any other Transit.
Hey, how much faster than 20 does the R train really need to go
anyway? :)
There are a number of possible causes for such a "slow train"
and while weak batteries is one of them, it is not the most likely.
It was reported that the train had 2 dead motors and would not exceed 17 MPH.
Wow ... that's pretty slow for only two dead motors ... the prewars could get up a head of steam with up to 6 of them not-ta-home ...
My thoughts exactly. That's the info from the official train trouble report. I'll bet that two dead motor lights were lit and individual cars were not checked until the train got back to the yard.
Either that or some joker tossed in bags of taffy instead of grease. :)
What is the maximum speed on the R-44?
About 40mph these days. When they were first delivered they hit 83mph in testing on the LIRR between Jamaica and Woodside, a speed record for subway trains that I believe still stands.
Dan
The record was set on Jan 31, 1972, on the LIRR track between Woodside and Jamaica. The trains reached 88 mph; 77 mph with two motors per car disabled to simulate rush hour loads.
The motors didn't fare too well.
In part because the voltage was higher (650 volts at the time, according to other folks posting here), and due to centrifugal force, the motors' windings suffered from "birdcaging."
With a little modification (and running on proper voltage), the R44's could certainly have been made to run at 80+ mph routinely. They were designed for safe operation at at least 70 mph.
Yeah, had things turned out differently, those cars would have put even the R-10s to shame.
Maximum speed on tangent level track is about 45 MPH. Same as every other car here. That includes the R68.
On one of our acceptance trials on the downtown Lexington Avenue line in Manhattan, we got an R62A up to 52 mph and we were movin' and shakin'!
Acceptance testing was back before our fearless leaders of safety in the Transit Authority tinkered with field shunting coils. What were the problems with the R62A propulsion systems when brand new, and what damages were found after running them through the South Ferry Loops?
Sounds like the suspensions and yaw dampers need a little work...
Maximum speed on tangent level track is about 45 MPH. Same as every other car here. That includes the R68.
What is tangent level?
R68(A)'s on the N and W REALLY ZOOM fast in the tunnel between Queensboro Plaza and Lex. Av. - 59 St. But the ride was unbearably smooth.
A dead cow would really zoom through the 60th St. tunnel--it's that fast. 50 mph GTs the whole way and an insane grade. A thing of beauty, that. I've topped 50 in that tunnel in an R-32 and I may have gone faster, but I wasn't railfanning so I can't be sure.
Dan
One guy I had worked with on an R job clocked 61 in that tunnel!!
An R32(BEST CARS EVER!!!) that i was on made 64 once
Best indeed!! 64??? Where was that? The 60th Street tubes? (N,R)
On the N/W lines going southbound, the speeds regularly clock 60+ mph on all equipment. However, if done on a slant 40 the ride feels like the walls are going to come off.
My personal best is 66 mph on a R68A.
Your R T/O was breaking some serious rules by doing 61. That means that he had the controller wrapped while the train was still going over a switch. And then the motormen bitch when more timers pop up and slower ones are initiated. Gee, wonder why?
Too bad they don't do that along CPW.
On the Acela Express are kids allowed on there or is it just for business and first class people?
Im sure kids are allowed. I dont think amtrak will ban kids.
If the money id there we don't care
On the Acela Express are kids allowed on there or is it just for business and first class people?
Yes, but there is no discounted fare for them... I doubt you'll see very many on there, and if you do they'll be in first class with their nanny.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Au contraire, mon frere!
I took AE round-trip BOS-NYP last weekend (south Saturday at 8am and north Sunday at noon). There were LOTS of families with children. In fact, there are no "quiet cars" on weekends, and the reason stated by Amtrak is that there are too many families traveling on weekends to enforce it.
They must have a lot more money than I'll ever dream of. I just comparison-shopped the website... it's $474 on Acela Regional for two adults plus two children, weekdays, WAS-BOS round trip, vs. $1304 on Acela Express (no child fares).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone know if they made a model train of the R-44 or R-68?
I rode the downtown 5 this morning. 1751 former pelham car to be exact. since it was a former pelham R62A i thought we would fly down the exp tracks. HOWEVER, this idiot Train operator was doing 20mph the whole time! it took him like 20 years to get from 59 to borough hall! there was nothing but green, and no trains ahead of us, at least till fulton st where JORALEMON TUBES HAD SLOW ORDERS! but i believe calling someone a Train operator is like calling them a boy and calling them a Motorman is like calling them a man. So the whole ride i was saying HES NOT A MOTORMAN, HES A TRAIN OPERATOR! basically calling someone a Train operator is looking down on them and calling them less than a man, or even another word i will not say here.......
AHH LET ME SAY IT. that T/O was a ungreatful hebitch
You too, eh? Wednesday morning, around 0930 I was on a downtown 5 from 86th to Union Square and (I wish I were kidding) the train did not at any time exceed 25 mph. Green signals the whole way. Took me twenty minutes to do a nine-minute trip.
Dan
Our 4 train didn't have a problem here last Saturday. But the time we rode the train to Woodlawn on our fan trip was around 8-9:00 in the evening, uptown, and downtown.
The T/O who took the Other Side of the Tracks railfan trip to Far Rockaway last Sunday went off duty and shot sheet with those of our group who were not glued to the railfan window before and during our return trip. During the brief time that I was involved, he was explaining that he is a T/O, in that he knows how to operate the train, and that's all the TA wants him to know. A motorman was able to troubleshoot and repair many minor problems out on the road; now the T/O calls for help and doesn't touch anything.
A motorman back in my days was expected to know their breaker panel, how to break off a shoe, even change a fuse below car if necessary. If you called for an RCI, something had better be major league broken or you'd get your nose rubbed in it AND written up. Being a techie type to begin with, any little tricks I didn't know from experience was committed to memory the first time an RCI showed me how. They didn't like to have to leave their post to meet a train over BS ... and if it was a popped breaker on the #2 end and you missed it, there was hell to pay. :)
But then again, these are touchy-feely times ...
We learn the basic breakers and still have to use the shoe paddles for their intended use on the ground with the 600. We did the manual cuts of the 44 and the old forbidden way. We did skip using the hostler. As for the breakers, we are not supposed to fool with them except to untrip them. There are crews out there that would trade their b2 if they could do a run without the enabler. And there are TO's that will cut out 2-3 breakers and not call something in.
As for the other stuff when I had my brake pipe rupture they did not want me to touch anything and I am glad. I knew what to do but it breaks the two dead motors to one good one rule. If anything bad had happened it would be on my head. This way the TSS did exactly what I would have but if anything happened it would be his ass.
As for me, I have an idiot book with the step by steps just in case my memory fails in the heat of crisis.
Heh. Well, wasn't all that much to muck with back in the old days. If a compressor breaker tripped, you could try TWICE to kick it back and hold (first trip was your "three strike") but if you got a shower of sparks on the first try, you left it. I drew the line though at popping a spring latch and polishing cams on the controller or brake stand. :)
Most of what they wanted you to do was valve resets, cut out doors, that kinda stuff. Anything beyond that it was call for the hammer dewds. There were other guys on the road who would do major fuse replaces and disconnect motors. I didn't have the stones for that and didn't last on the railroad long enough to get stupid enough to acquire the skill. However, I did learn the skill to do a fast cut and add to seal an errant trainline pipe but that's about as far as it went.
But thanks to my own generation, that's why the breakers have lockouts now. You get three tries and then it's a manual reset from below. The best brakepipe ruptures of my age though was when the valve on the ceiling in the cab decided to blow a hole in the floor. Talk about a hair dryer. Heh. Had that happen once.
And if all else failed, you brought out the old ball peen hammer, right?:-)
Nope ... using a hammer instead of wood would be "out of title" ... :)
Scardey cat...scardey cat!!! :-0
Well get use to it. The Train rides are going to get slower. A No.5 Line T/O said that supervison is ordering T/O's to SLOWDOWN because of an Increase in Signal and Station Overruns. Also I spoke with SR and he signed something to that effect. The order is coming from the top.
The T/O's messing up seem to be the new guys from the street. I also like to know how O/C T/O's can hit home signals and keep there jobs.
Are you serious, they are being ordered to slow down, despite functional signalling? I'd be careful about following an order to "slow down" when it isn't in writing. We had over a dozen signal overruns in the B division in the last few weeks but going 20MPH past a green signal will not stop the incompetant from running a red. It will just delay the chow.
Oh, brother, what next? Are they going to mandate keeping the controller in switching all the time? Sheesh.
I think the guys in the car barn would literally 12-9 RTO for that idea. You leave it in switching for more than 15-20 seconds and you won't have to worry about whether or not the seat heaters are on or not. :)
You're right. I remember reading that leaving the controller in switching for very long is not good. OTOH I was on an Evanston Express in Chicago once, whizzing along the outer track on that long straightaway stretch, and the motorman kept the controller on that 6000-series PCC train in first notch the whole time. Must have been a different type of controller.
He probably thought he was driving a BUS and that black smoke behind him was the diesel doing its thing. :)
Bravo! I wasn't the world's best "T/O" but I never blew my stop (I was just a punkass coming up to the marker slower than I should have) and after about 2-3 weeks on the road, you should have at least your OWN line down. If after a month, you're still way late or hit a signal, it's really time to go back to the middle of the train. Just my own opinion of course, but if they really ARE slowing down the railroad to 20, it's REALLY time for another OCTO test and another round of rolling romper room ...
I wish I was joking. That whats happening in A Div. at least for the No.4,5,6 Lines. A few weeks ago I posted how they wanted us on the Lex to kind of speed up. Now the order is take it slow.
I agree with your point it will just delay service. This order should be making its way around it only started on Wednesday.
How can an O/C keep his job? TA wants this to work and they spent a ton of money on it.
Any plans for the MTA to order any more 75 feet trains?
I doubt it since they can only operate on part of the system and you lose 8 door openings per side with them. (same amount of people less doorways equals more dwell time)
Correct...current policy is to buy only 60-foot cars for Subdivision "B" (BMT/IND). Will that change in the future? Who knows? (rhetorical questions...no need to answer)
David
Official word from MTA is that the agency has no role in any current planning for reconstruction of the North Shore line. The agency also has no plans to convert NYCT's Staten Island Railway to LRV technology, nor, by extension to integrate North and South Shore operations. If reconstructed and put in operation, the 5.2 mile North Shore Line will terminate at St. George, and provide a transfer for passengers to the South Shore subway line, but nothing more.
How strange.
Not really. We can't get them to increase bus service; why should we expect them to extend train service?
Depending on what Staten Islanders want, the closeness of the upcoming gubernatorial election and how many registered Republican voters live on the North Shore, the MTA could become involved in this before November.
In that case, it won't happen. And lets think for a second-how much sense would it make to have a pair of rail lines on Staten Island that would require not only seperate equipment, but also seperate maintainance facilities, seperate fare collection policies, etc.
-Hank
Hank: As always your the voice of reason. Good to hear from you again.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's why the North Shore line should be part of SIRT.
Conversation overheard today on the SI Ferry between two jackets - PATH and NYCT Capital Construction - seemed to imply that Transit is 'studying' the North Shore line as an extension of the current SIR. So who knows?
The last PCC to pick up fares on the Newark City Subway has been delivered to SFMuni Geneva Shops as of yesterday morning. Peter Ehrlich of PCCstreetcar & SFMunihistory yahoo groups posted the first pictures. They are found on the following two messages:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SFMunihistory/messages/6487 and 6488.
She looks good, we'll see if the sisters join her...
Keep y'all posted on what's going on in Brooklyn later.
Jan
What happened about the restrictions that there were supposed to be concerning the PCCs leaving New Jersey?
-Robert King
Reality set in.
I guess they eventually figured out that it'd be better to let them out of New Jersey rather than confine them to the state and have the bulk of them appear now and again in the middle of farm fields (you could drive through southern Ontario in the late 1980s and every so often there'd be a farm with a scrapped TTC PCC sitting in the middle of it - this isn't a scene you'd want to see repeated down south with NJT's PCCs now).
-Robert King
I really hope that, as long as they're planning to get rid of some of the PCC's, that they're willing to put a few in museums. I know that IRM would be interested in one to restore as a Twin Cities car, and Museum of Transport and East Troy might be also; plus, I'll wager Seashore and Warehouse Point would be at least somewhat interested in getting a Newark car.
Frank Hicks
I know I speak for the whole city and the Museum when I say that Scranton would love to have one of the NCS PCCs!
SEPTA is getting ready to refurbish 18 1947-era PCC cars with air conditioning, better lighting, PA system and a manually operated wheelchair lift, as its project to restore trolley service to Girard Avenue continues.
I'm glad to hear it. It will be good to see restored trolley in Philly.
I'd love to see fixed rail come back to Germantown Ave. The truth is, Germantown Av and Roosevelt Blvd deserve heavy rail subway service. Subway service would help revitalize them and bring up property values . The Roosevelt Blvd. subway is in proposal stage; there's nothing but pipe dreams and laments now for Germantown Ave.
On the other hand, plans for the Schuylkill Valley Metro are coming along...
>>The truth is, Germantown Av and Roosevelt Blvd deserve heavy rail
subway service.
You've got that right! Where would you put the heavy rail line to Germantown? Would you convert one of the Chestnut Hill regional lines from commuter to heavy rail? If so, would you make it a branch of the Broad Street subway or a new line to Center City?
Mark
That is great news! When they are running, I'd be thrilled to go ride them. The PCC was one of the best railcars ever. Adding A/C will make them very popular with Philly!
Chuck Greene
Yes, indeed.
They will not be fitted with GPS or automated announcements though. No room for the required electronics.
The passenger islands along Girard have been rehabbed and will be ADA compliant upon start of service.
Just a technicality, but almost all of the loading islands on Girard were removed over the past several years. The islands being installed are new with the exception of the two within the 'Zoo Transitway' west of 34th St.
Yes, you are correct. Thank you for adding that detail.
Okay, that's good news. But what paint scheme will be applied. Hopefully not the one currently used on their new buses.
Bill "Newkirk"
These will be nothing but an LRV in a PCC body. They will be painted green & cream. Present plans will have the #15 operate out of Elmwood Depot, not Callowhill. The #10 subway surface will remain at Elmwood.
What a waste. They have to deadhead a long distance to reach Girard Av. all the way from Elmwood Depot. I guess there is no other choice, no other trolley barns nearby.
Chuck Greene
If you think THAT'S a problem, think of what they may need should Routes 23 (Germantown Avenue, 11th/12th Streets) and 56 (Erie/Torresdale Avenues) ever be returned to trolley service. Germantown is used as little more than a training facility and storage yard, though I believe the bays remain. And although all the access track to Luzerne is intact, the depot itself looks like a wasteland, and all tracks within the property are either buried or uprooted. Midvale (Luzerne's bus replacement) has no trolley bays, but it and Luzerne are the closest service facilites to the 56 line. Thankfully, Southern isn't too far off the 23, but there's no access trackage... that, and rehab to accomodate LRVs may crowd out the even more rare trolleybuses seen on the crosstown routes 29 and 79. And nobody wants that
Speaking of SEPTA's infamous trolleys on rubber, they've supposedly got long-term plans for a new fleet of them. Anyone know if that's true?
Callowhill Depot is getting a minor rehab to store the PCC's so they won't have to deadhead to/from Elmwood. However, they will have to go there for anything more than very routine maintenance, so there will be lots of deadhead mileage even with the new arrangement. No K cars from 10 will be stored at Callowhill so the long deadhead for it will continue.
SEPTA is budgeting for a new trackless fleet in 3-5 years and is allegedly starting design work now. Roughly 60 new coaches are planned, so there won't be any expansion. 43 of the AMG's are now up for sale - low mileage, like new, if anyone's interested.
There's no room at Elmwood Carhouse to handle the extra 18 or so cars.
And if there not going to Callowhill then WHY are they rehabbing the old trolley bays there. And who told you that 10 & 15 trolley lines weren't going back to Callowhill...? The pullouts & pullins for the 10 now is long, it's kinda like a whole new route within itself. So I feel that can't be true...! But if that is the case, then I want to see how they are going to handle that since Elmwood is already overcrowded w/other rarely used rolling stock (PCCs used for the former "Welcome Line" and charters). It's hard sometimes for QC to even find a place to store its own LRVs at Elmwood during the overnight hours that is. But we'll just have to wait and see now 'cuz if you know how SEPTA do they're good for changing things at the last minute. And as cheap as SEPTA is, I have strong feelings that rt.10 will be going back to Callowhill /w the rt.15 when trolley service is restored. In all actuality it's not being cheap it's "cost effective too. 'Cuz you'll be saving alot time as far as pull-outs/pull-ins are concerned. By operating out Callowhill you'll save from 50min to 10/15min in pullout time saving alot of money in operating costs. But I'll just wait and see, shoot I've been patient for 10yrs now I can wait.
Holla Back,
Nia :-)
There won't be any room (allegedly) for K cars for 10 at the rehabbed Callowill, but we shall see. The only good thing about 10 deadheads to/from Elmwood is that they go into service as 36's. A handful use the diversion so they cut off at 42nd, but others go all the way to Juniper.
Service as 36s now? Last year, I remember seeing quite a few (relatively empty) Route 11 trolleys running west with the "Woodland Ave & Island Road" designation in the front - but the "10 - 63rd & Malvern" sign in the rear. Just something to point out.
What really gets me is do they send every Route 13 Darby trip into Elmwood and just pull another out, or do some of them actually use the depot as a turnback?
Some do come out of service as 11's (and some may go in that way also), but most are 36 runs (outbound to Island Rd or 73rd & Elmwood).
13's used to be able to turn at Darby but the connection through Darby Terminal is gone, thus any 13 venturing beyond Yeadon must go to 11's trackage and either return to Center City as an 11 or head for Elmwood. Those going in usually change out cars and operators, as happens throughout the day on the other lines. I don't believe any 13's go that far just to turn back.
I remember going to a fan trip at Elmwood Depot a few years ago. I took the 108 from 69th st. and waited for a 36 to take me to the depot.
Along came a 10 , signed for 63-Malvern . He let me on , I paid my fare, and he took me to Elmwood Depot. I was his only passenger, because he was "deadheading", and decided to let me ride.
Chuck Greene
This was probably coming from the 10 line over the diversion route. I keep noticing how SEPTA operators are increasingly not paying attention to signs, even on the vehicles with electronic ones which only require pushing a button to change. In recent trips on the subway-surface I noticed a disturbing number of inbounds carrying the outbound sign up front.
The side signs on the K cars are another matter. As delivered they changed in sync with the front sign and carried the same message. In the last 5 years or so (when the mechanism probably became too troublesome to fix), the side signs are 'locked' into place and can only be changed by the operator with a key. Thus, whether by design or by indifference, the outbound sign is the one displayed. This gets interesting on cars switching lines (i.e. 11 or 36 deadheads to/from 10) and the two lines with frequent service to different destinations (13, 36). At some stops (particularly 15th and 30th outbound) the side signs are very critical to passengers.
Did you ever see how the signs on the trolleys work in Pittsburgh?
They never carry an inbound destination sign,(like Pittburgh Center City). They always have their outbound readings only , like 42S,
South Hills village via Beechview. I guess this is because all trolleys go to Pittsburgh Center City heading inbound?
Keep up the good transit work, Bob!
Chuck Greene
The buses there are the same way. The sign displays a line indication, not necessarily a destination (like what we're used to in Phila). Portland (OR) used to be the same way - you weren't sure whether you were headed inbound or outbound aside from the place where you boarded the bus.
Also there has been some debut on this thread about Callowhill Depot. There should be no debut, the 10 and the 15 should be coming out of Callowhill when it reopens. Thats just talk. They want to build a new depot on Parkside Avenue. They dont want to tear down Callowhill because of PCB's etc. Another talk is if they dont reopen Callowhill the 15 will be based out of Elmwood. I was just talking to Bob H and he and a few others have been coming up with a list of supllies and others for Callowhill. The thing that stinks is the 1st PCC hasnt left the property and they are talking about the 15 coming back in 2003 or 4. I think it will take longer. What does everyone think. Im just talking outta experience with SEPTA. It is true that they will be getting the old seats from the Volvo Artics.
The Parkside depot location is not without its problems, among them neighbors who don't want buses and bus traffic. Of course, one of the big problems at Callowhill is (and keep in mind it's a transit facility) lack of employee parking. Once upon a time operators/drivers took transit to work, but with the reduced hours of operation/schedules, it isn't as easy to do. Allegheny and Frankford have this same problem big time, although Frankford has a small parking lot off Pratt St.
15 will have no other place to go if Callowhill closes. Fortunately Callowhill can't close until a replacement is ready. Some $ has recently been spent there for PCC storage to avoid the problem of 15 deadheading to Elmwood.
I don't want to believe it but I keep hearing about the Volvo seats going into the PCC's...
Where did you find out the cars are being painted in the PTC green & cream scheme? That's a nice scheme, although I would have like to seen something new, maybe red like the Toronto and San Diego LRVs or purple like Philly's PHLASH buses.
The contract was awarded to the Brookville Equipment Company of Brookville, PA to rebuilt 18 cars. Each car will cost about $1.2M to rebuild, including new trucks, control equipment, AC, a wheelchair lift at the center doors. Supposedly recycled seats from retired Volvo articulated buses will be used. The contract also contains an option for 6 more cars, for a total of 24. All cars are to be drawn from the cars currently stored at the former Luzerne Depot. Work is to start this year, with deliveries in the first half of 2003.
Brookville has been known for years as a producer of industrial locomotives, but recently has entered the rebuilding business. They have rebuilt 2 of SEPTA's SW1200 diesels with new prime movers.
From what I keep hearing:
1. Almost all rebuilds will be 2700's.
2. They will likely be renumbered into the 2400 series.
3. The Volvo seats are definitely going into the cars (i.e. they will be VERY uncomfortable!).
4. The option will be exercised to allow spares for possible use in the subway.
I don't recall the Volvo articulated's seats much - rarely ever rode Routes 9, 27, 48 or 60 - but I know that using some seats from the suburban division's 8000-series Neoplans would be comfy. SEPTA had their Neoplans and a few of the now-departed RTS IIs reupholstered with the blue, cushioned seats. Maybe a few seats from the "almond joy" Market-Frankford cars would be welcome.
Anybody know what happened to that single solitary 40-foot Volvo bus SEPTA had? I never got the chance to experience it, save a brief tour during Tolleyfest 1995.
'Comfy' will the furthest word from your mind when you ride on those hard-shell seats that were in the Volvo artics! The cushioned seats from the suburban Neos were nice but a bit slippery.
I haven't heard what's going to happen to the seats coming out of the M-4's. I would guess that the Budd car seats, quite comfortable, are history.
8590, the 40-foot Volvo, is retired, and allegedly being retained by SEPTA for historical purposes. That's just like SEPTA - it saves none of the 1000 GM 'Green Hornets' of the 50's, buys an ACF-Brill which represents a model never run on PTC and paints the front end to resemble a similar model for the Transit Museum (and puts the front number in the wrong spot), and it appears to be willing to preserve a bus of which a grand total of ONE ran on its property. Many SEPTA riders probably never even saw it.
>>2. They will likely be renumbered into the 2400 series.<<
Any other PCC's or streetcars use the 2400 series numbering before ?
Also, we can assume that the addition of A/C, new lighting will spoil the original PCC look. New trucks too ?, what's wrong with the old ones, San Francisco kept the old ones for the F-Market St. rehab.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nothing in the PCC era ever carried a 2400-series number (I believe some cars in PRT's time had these numbers, but that was long ago). The original numbering sequence on PTC was 2000 and up for one-man cars and 2500 and up for two-man. The 2200 series included the second-hand St Louis and Kansas City cars (and the third-hand Toronto ex-KC group) and 2300's were the Toronto ex-Birmingham cars.
I'm not sure whether the AC will spoil the look. I imagine that it will have a roof blister of some kind and maybe this can be hidden somehow in the cowl, etc. As far as the trucks, good question.
Don't know about the trucks, I was quoting a release. The only possibility is that SEPTA's going to B3's or a Tatra style B3 to eliminate the swing links in the B2's, which are a constant inspect and lube item.
I suspect we will have to wait until the first 2400 rolls out of Brookvile to see what's actually sitting on the kingpins.
I had suggested a while back that the cars represent various PRT/PCC/SEPTA schemes (and maybe even Pittsburgh and NJT) but some viewed this as impractical. If SEPTA has its way we'll get the very scheme the buses and K cars are wearing. It would be nice to have something different.
Given the precedent in SF of the F Market fleet being painted to represent cars from all over the US(albeit not always perfectly) It should be feasible and a pleasant PR maneuver. OF COURSE earlier Phila Area paint schemes should be represented.
What are you talking about? This is not a railfan projesct. This is revenue service. Why aren't you clamoring to get the blue stripe back on the R-44s? The Redbirds painted green? Boston LRVs should be orange and cream. New Oroin buses should be blue. Or green. Or maybe, current operating revenue fleet is going to look like it, regardless of when the equipment was built.
P.S.--fantasy railcar: stainless steel Budd PCCs. They would have been indestructable.
That would have looked pretty cool in a Fritz Lang sort of way.
I actually like PCCs in modern livery. I loved the Newark City Subway PCCs in the big purple, orange, and blue stripe of New Jersey Transit. Though they were out of wervice long before I moved to Philadelphia, I like the photos I've seen of PCCs in the big orange and blue SEPTA waist stripe. I wouldn't have a problem with them using that scheme again. However, I think the new read and blue "headband" stripe would be pretty dull, since it makes the rest of the vehicle a vast expanse of featureless white. It looks okay on buses, but its not very good for the Kawasaki trolleys, and I think it would look pretty bad on the PCCs as well.
Mark
Hello everyone, FYI, Im a good friend of 1 of the peoples involved on the PCC rebuild. The PCC will be repainted in a green and creme like the old PTC. 1 thing that hasnt been decided isif they are gonna go use the SEPTA meatball from the early 70's or a newer design. Also the cars will be rebuilt with b-2 trucks. My good friend is Bob Hughes. Beleieve me the info is true. Email me if you want to know anything more.
John
The SEPTA "headband" scheme isn't much more than a big, blank display area for ads. I'd hesitate to even call it a paint scheme.
"revenue service" does not require lame or ugly paint schemes. Go to
>>http://www.streetcar.org/<< to see info on a VERY sucessful revenue service/railfan's dream. The PCC's are painted in the historic colors of many cities and the route has more fdaily riders than the Cleveland Red line.
I know exactly what the line is. My point is that there is a deep streetcar heritage in Phila and this would be a way to pay homage to it. It would be, in my opinion, a way to bring more attention to the line.
Personally I'm not concerned about the blue stripe on R-44's or any of the other things you mentioned. I have a thought about the history of the PCC in specific and streetcars in general in Phila and this is it. You are correct that this is not a railfan project but it wouldn't hurt to recognize history which is often considered by the railfan but forgotten by big transit agencies.
There is a new exhibit at the Transit Museum Gift shop in Grand Central Terminal featuring the various modes of transportation used in the last century. At the back of the exhibit we find models of four rapid transit cars all supposedly "Elevated" cars of the Interborough Rapid Transit Company.
1) MUDC 1640 OK
2) Composite 2051 OK half subway/half elevated
3) IRT Deck Roof High-V 3662. This was a subway car.
4) BU 600 - with a center door no less. This is the one that caught my attention. Yes the Manhattan Railway did have its own No 600. An 1878 trailer built by Pullman. But this 600 is a real son of BRT or Nathan's doesn't sell hot dogs.Not only does she have the center door used on many of the BU but the placement of the marker lights is a dead give-a-way. The marker lights on BRT el cars where spaced very widely apart on the outside of the clerestory. IRT el car marker lights were much closer together being placed on the clerestory section proper. The TA was made very much aware of this fact when they first started to run the Q's on the 3 Avenue El on the early 50's. The overhang of the roofs on the IRT platform clipped of the widely spaced BMT marker lights. For the record BRT No 600 was built by the Gilbert Car Company in 1887 as a steam coach for the Brooklyn Elevated Railway and was later converted to an emu motor car.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, these are all models that were built by Dr. George Rahilly.
He's a member at Branford too and we have a number of his models,
some in storage, some on display. I think the Transit Museum
has the bulk of them. They had an exhibit a few years ago in
Court St. and there was 1220, 1221, 1222, ..... etc. all in
a row!
3662 spent the end of its career as a work motor on the last
remnants of the 9th Ave el (the polo grounds shuttle). Perhaps
that is why it was included in the elevated display. As for
the BU car, well........somebody didn't proofread!
Was 600 a converted car? I have nothing in front of me to look
at right now, but I though the 600 series of cars were built in
1901, originally numbered in the 400 series, as electric cars?
Jeff: 600 to 619 were orginally built as steam coaches and later converted. 600 was the former 145. 620-627 and 633-682 were built as electrics.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It seems the 600 series was a hodge-podge of re-numbered cars.
I wonder what the purpose of that was?
I porpose the following changes to the A and C Lines
1-The A Line will discontinue service to and from Leffets Blvd
2-A trains that now operate to Leffets Blvd will operate to Rockaway Park except for midnight hours. This will eliminate the need for the Rockaway Park/Broad Channel Shuttle except midnight hours
3-No change on A service to and from Far Rockaway
4-Extend the C Line from Euclid Ave to Leffets Blvd. Late nights when the C does not operate to 168th Street it will operate as a shuttle between Leffets and Rockaway Blvds only.
If implemented these will be the following improvements
1-One seat ride between Rockaway Park and Manhattan except for midnight hours
2-50% increase in service to Aqueduct,Howard Beach and Broad Channel.
This will be a benefit to JFK Airport bound passengers once the Air Train is operating
3-Major increase in service to stations between Grant Ave and Rockaway Blvd.
Downside
1-Stations between Rockaway and Leffets Blvd will lose direct express service
Any comments
Thank You
There are more people on the Lefferts spur than the Far Rockaway spur. At least give Lefferts express service in the rush hour.
Really. I posted something before about if Far Rockaway trains are more crowded than Lefferts trains, and was told yes, mostly because of JFK. The above statement seems believable on peak, but not off-peak, when the JFK airport station has a lot of people.
My mistake. I meant Rockaway Park.
I agree with any plan that ends the ridiculous practice of having to A train terminals. I've said it before, but the A's to Lefferst should be called something else, it doesn't change any service or need to add any trains, but avoids any confusion - Just call the Lefferts A's the K or something. I think there even is a blue K on the rollsigns from when they ran the Blue K on 8th Ave in the 80's.
Yup, Blue K's are even on the new R68 rollsigns.
A: 207-Far Fockaway
C: 168-Rockaway Pk
K: 207-Lefferts
C and K shuttles between Euclid and respective terminal during nights.
Anything going to Rockaway Park should be called "H". I agree with making the "C" go to Lefferts.
wayne
>> Just call the Lefferts A's the K or something. I think there even is a blue K on the rollsigns from when they ran the Blue K on 8th Ave in the 80's. <<
What they should have done is to extend the line from Lefferts Blvd into Kennedy Airport and call that the "K." Then, the "E" and "F" should have been swapped so that the F runs on the Archer Ave line, which should also have been extended to Kennedy Airport along with the "J" line.
"What they should have done is to extend the line from Lefferts Blvd into Kennedy Airport and call that the "K."
If they had had the good sense to extend a subway line to JFK, it would have been far cheaper to turn off the A line near the current Howard Beach station.
Even better would have been to use the ROW the LIRR abandoned in 1956 from the main line down to where the Rockaway and Lefferts lines now split.
Another way, which I really believed would have worked, had the TA and the city been really thinking when they planned the Archer Avenue extension (E line level), was to make an another extension south from Jamaica-Van Wyck (the DA1-DA2 extension still would go on to Jamaica Center) right under the Van Wyck Expressway, or the Van Wyck service road, straight south to the airport. The station stops after Jamaica Van Wyck heading south to the airport would be:
Atlantic Avenue, Liberty Avenue, 109th Avenue, Linden Blvd, Rockaway Blvd, North Conduit Avenue - Belt Parkway, Federal Circle -G.A.T. (General Aviation Terminal), and a central station connected to the airport terminals right in the middle of the circle at JFK (where the existing Air Train terminal is), which would be connected to the respective terminals via passageways with people movers (like already existing in the airport, and like the one at Court Square). I think this would have been better because a better JFK Express direct to Midtown could be run, traffic permitting on the Queens Division Corridor.
In the 1930's when NYC built the IND and built the stub after Van Wych Blvd going south, There was no airport there. I'd like to think if the airport had been there (Anderson or Idlewild) the subway would have been built.
While I agree with you on the "originally should have" theme, you'll find the airport stops more than adequately addressed by AirTrain - and with a LIRR connection too.
Yeah but the long term, main goal is not achieved thru the Air Train, which the extension from Archer Avenue Line would have provided, which is one seat access to Manhattan. I think if they wanted to go ahead with building this ROW down the Van Wyck, with it leading to Jamaica Station, I wish I knew why they simply didn't build the ROW for LIRR service from Jamaica to JFK (much like how SEPTA's R-1 Airport line was built to Philly Int'l Airport), even connect it to the westbound mainline, sending the LIRR airport train right to Penn Station. And the planners are supposed to be such big, great thinkers and idea-makers.....yeah right!!
The Archer Avenue line would have been nice to connect tthe airport to Manhattan, but it would only work for workers. Air passengers would have too much luggage to drag around up and down the stairs of a normal subway line. Can you imagine dragging your luggage from a trunk line in Manhattan through the Queens line during rush hour?
As for the LIRR, that's another story. I too don't see the logic of it not being the LIRR. BTW, if they so choose, is it physically possible (if there was a connection) to run "normal LIRR" trains on the Airtrain route?
"The Archer Avenue line would have been nice to connect tthe airport to Manhattan, but it would only work for workers. Air
passengers would have too much luggage to drag around up and down the stairs of a normal subway line. Can you imagine
dragging your luggage from a trunk line in Manhattan through the Queens line during rush hour?"
That's why AirTrain has elevators and moving sidewalks. The subway and LIRR connections at Jamaica Station and at Howard Beach will be fully ADA-compliant and equipped with escalators and elevators to make them luggage friendly. The LIRR is 75% luggage-friendly now, no matter where you go; the subway has a ways to go before it can make that claim.
That's why your concerns about Airport transportation have been addressed. AirTrain does everything well enough so that a subway under the full length of the Van Wyck, or a special LIRR line to the airport, is no longer necessary (though having local subway stops along the Van Wyck in South Ozone Park is a very good idea). In fact, the current AirTrain arrangement is far superior to the useless money pit that an Airport LIRR line using the Rockaway ROW would be, and I don't want the MTA to spend a nickel even considering it.
The Rockaways do need more rail service, but there are other ways of providing it.
Well your idea sounds good. But as for the loss in express service at Lefferts, with the customers there having to change trains (C to A) at Rockaway Blvd (more than likely this will be the change point due to closeness to home locations for the cutstomers) that will spell delays in service because there will be A LOT of people at Rockaway wanting to go for A service, and that will in turn hold up one A train making for a backup in A service to the Rockaways, which will in turn cause delays in the C service. Having worked the A I can tell you that quite a few commuters use the Lefferts A service, and making the C Local come there and replace A Express service will leave a very bad taste with the people, and thus more complaints and confusion. Not to mention more trains would be required to be out on the line to make up the A Rock Park service, thus meaning more delays to a line that has (especially in the morning) more than it's share of trains running on the line (I have seen sometime 2 to 3 trains behind mine when I work the rush, especially AMs). I think the good ol' TA has made enough changes in service. I think things, especially A service which has mostly escaped all the big service change confusion of the last several months, should stay just as they are (I mean damn people still haven't gotten over fully the F and V changes, changing the F off a route it has run on since the F came into service). If anything, I say go back to the way things were and bring the C back to Rock Park, make a Rock Park/ Far Rock shuttle service again. Bring things back to the way they were.
I wouldn't mind bringing back CC service to the Rockaways, as Rockaway Park patrons would benefit from more than the 5 trains they get during the rush hours. It would be beneficial to crews as well. Going back to 1992 work programs, a twenty minute headway with the current 28 minutes of running time to Rock Park required 4 trainsets for the service South of Euclid, not counting Euclid dropouts in the relay positions and including any gaps at the terminal. The dropping of the current Shuttles would provide 2 full trainsets available to the A, and the 5 R44 sets from the showcases could allow for turnover of R38s to make up the other 3 sets for 40 cars including the spare for C service. All we would require then should be at least 4 conductors to replace OPTO and one additional motorman for the PMs and whatever extra crews for the AM.
Yeah right! Lets bring back the other expresses while we are at it.
What do you mean by showcases? Are you refering the the 5 A's that now make the Rockaway Pk service? Why call them showcases?
Thats what we called them since the replacement of the CC. I use "showcase #1" with little arguments and always get a correct lineup.
What utilization do those trains get, in the AM the make the run into manhattan and I believe some go out of service at Dyckman St. Are they used during the day as regular A's or do they wait at 207 and make the run back and that is all for the day. It seem like a waist of equipment if they are not used all day.
Piggo
They aren't used at all, as they would be layed up upon going to longer headways anyway. 5 trains go into service from the yard, and half trip to the other yard.
Also,
Do you know why they start at 59 in the PM? I've seen the train run light through 175 on its way to 50 to begin the run to Rock Pk. This again seems like poor management............
Thus the term "showcase". If I am lucky to pick up 3 passengers at 59th St, who are actually going to Rockaway Park, they have a one seat ride. It hasn't been much of a showcase as of late. In 1998, after they built the spur tracks at Broad Channel, the RPK trains had priority over the shortlining shuttles. If the spur track had a relay inside, the next shuttle would take the long relay to Howard Beach, ensuring the southbound RKP trains kept moving. The way the schedules are written, I run light behind a FRK train out of the terminal, held at 59 for 3 minutes, then follow this FRK halfway over the flats, just to be held for the Shuttle in the spur. A four stop shuttle has priority over a "special". Not as insulting as putting the CC behind the A at Hammels Wye but never would have happened to the
Well, think about this for a moment, and maybe this could be a better solution:
A = 207-Inwood to Far Rockaway, all times, always express in Brooklyn.
C = 168 St. to Lefferts Blvd, express in Brooklyn, all times except late nights.
E = Jamaica Center to World Trade Center (current E train)
H = Broad Channel to Rockaway Park shuttle, takes the place of K during Late Nite and Weekends.
K = 207-Inwood to Rockaway Park, all times except for Late Nights and Weekends
This takes into account everyone's posts in this thread...I think.
-John!
The only problem with your proposal is that during late nights, people going to/from any Brooklyn local station to/from any station between Aqueduct and Far Rockaway will have to take 2 trains. And if they are going to/from Rockaway Park, that will require taking 3 trains at that hour! I don't think that would be acceptable to those affected!
All well and good until your the passenger stuck at Hoyt & Schermerhorn waiting for a local.
I think this will be suitable solutions
A Train:
[All Time Except Nights]- Express Stops, Inwood/207 St, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Far Rockaway, Queens; Also serves Rockaway Park, Queens, during rush hours; other times transfer to H (Rockaway Park Shuttle) at Broad Channel, Queens.
[Nights]- All Stops in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens from 207 St Inwood, Manhattan to Far Rockaway, Queens; Transfer to C at Euclid Ave for Service to Lefferts Blvd.
C Train:
[All Time Except Nights]- All stops from 168 St Washington Height, Manhattan to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
[Night]- Shuttle Service between Euclid Ave, Brooklyn to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
H Train:
[All Time]- Shuttle Service between Broad channel and Rockaway Park.
Rush Hour A service also serves Rockaway Park, Queens,
K Train:
[Rush Hours/Middays]- Express Stops from Inwood/207 St, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Leffert Blvd, Queens. Other time use C
With this, u have two express service and two local service along 8th Ave route in Manhattan
Would this scenario be feasible if we had enough cars on the IND to support this plan..
Return the E to Fulton Street to Lefferts Blvd. Run the C to Euvlid Ave/Rockaway Park. Run the H train from Euclid to Rockaway Park. Create a new K service.
Weekday Service as follows
A - From 207th St. Central Park Express, 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Exp. (Express from 80th St. - Broad Channel [7am-11am and 3pm-7pm]) To Far Rockaway
E - From Parsons/Archer. Queens Blvd Exp., 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Exp. To Lefferts Blvd
C - From 168th Street Central Park Local, 8th Ave Local, Fulton St. Lcl. - To Rockaway Park Weekdays
K - From Rockaway Pkwy Broadway Exp., Nassau St Exp., 6th Ave Local, 8th Ave Local to 168th Street All Times. (Run Exp peak direction between Eastern Parkway and Marcy Ave.)
Weekend Service
A - From 207th St 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Local. To Far Rockaway.
C - From 168th Street Central Park Local, 8th Ave Local To Canal Street.
E - From Parsons/Archer. Queens Blvd Exp., 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Exp. To Lefferts Blvd - All Times
H - From Euclid Ave. - To Rockaway Park Weekends
K - From Rockaway Pkwy Broadway Exp., Nassau St Exp., 6th Ave Local, 8th Ave Local to 168th Street All Times. (Run Exp peak direction between Eastern Parkway and Marcy Ave.)
What do you think?
Frank D
I like this idea, but it has two drawbacks:
1. More cars would be needed, for extended C service as well as the doubled service to Rockaway
2. This routeing creates redundant and unnecessary service between Rockaway Blvd & Euclid Ave.
It does eliminate the problem of which A train to take to JFK, as well as vastly increasing Lefferts Blvd service, which is underserved today.
I just put a new historical map on my web site. This time, it's a pictoral map of Midtown from around 1963. The map is kinda cool because it shows every building in Midtown drawn in perspective, as well as other infrastructure (e.g. the West Side Freight line).
I believe the map dates from 1963 because it shows both the Pan Am building, as well as the old Penn Station. The Pan Am building was built in 1963, which was the year in which Penn Station was razed. No copyright is shown on the map, so that's my only clue. I'd be curious to see if there are other clues about the map's date which the sharp-eyed Subtalkers can find.
As with the other maps I've done, you can click on a spot and get an enlarged view of that area. Detail lovers can also click on the enlargement to get the (much larger) origial file of that map.
Note to David Greenberger -- I have now fixed the html table problem with this map which you complained about last time I posted a map. Of course, I still haven't fixed my earlier maps. I'm just kinda lazy. Sorry!
The map is located at
http://www.brorson.com/maps/NYC/Midtown_1963/Midtown_1963_Level1.html
As always, you can find some of my other maps at
http://www.brorson.com/maps/
Stuart
Cool. That looks a bit like a hagstrom map I have of midtown, same perspective, etc. Must be based on the 1963 one.
Wow! Neaterons! Sim City done RIGHT ... nice stuff, bro!
Hey Upper Manhattanite, the Map is GGGGGGGGRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTT.
Give up more cool maps man.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
Thanks! You're right - the map was from 1963. I had an original (it was only $1, and we got it from a radio station) but I haven't been able to find it for years. It was designed in Germany. If you zoom in on Times Square you can see it's misspelled "Time Square".
nice.
For those who didn't hear yet, the MTA has awarded the Tully and Pengo construction copanies to rebuild the tunnel that was damaged . The same companies are also rebuilding the Path tunnel which was also damaged.
Thanks for posting that. They're aiming to finish the South Ferry line by November.
Pretty cool, much sooner than expected originally
True. The Governor pushed hard (it is an election year, after all).
I believe it's Pegno, not Pengo.
Pegno-Tully are working on my job as well, although I just design the thing -- I don't work directly with the contractors, so I can't comment on their quality. They really are one of the few around who can swing such a job.
MATT-2AV
What is your job?
- Lyle Goldman
ok im in the city for a week... is the r143 still running on the L? if so, anyone know what time i could catch it?
thanks
allen
No, it is not running in revenue service YET.
It is due to enter service any day, it had passed it's 30-day acceptance test nearly a month ago, and there are 16 MU's on the property, I do not know if you will be lucky enough to ride on one for the short time you are in the City.
There are now 20 here with 4 more due on Tuesday.
8101-8108 enter regular service Monday
8109-8116 have been accepted and are now being used to qualify crews.
-Mark
Well the Rumor in the Crew room at 242 V C is, The 62a's from VC will go to Corona .The Singles From New Lots Will remain as well as the Trains from Pelham. But to cover the Gap Look for A Redbird or 2 to appear on the 1 line during rush Hours.Also the 5 car sets to Corona will have one single car, that be # 11 .The Single car will always face Times square .But Get this The Strong Rumor Is the TRANSVERSE cabs are being Removed So the Railfan windows Remain for the Time being.
Removing the transverse cabs?!? Why would they do that?
I always thought the single unit would have a transverse cab on each end and be used in the middle of two 5 car sets (conductor's position?), but I guess I could be wrong...
-Stef
Because C/R positions on the 7 are 6 towards main 5 towards the square.If an emergency happens The alternate is One car towards Main St. So to say transverse cabs were to stay that means the Boards North Bound Would Have to be moved.
TRANSVERSE cabs are being Removed?
Good news if it true especially by this summer !!
Yes, but the bad news is they'll be welding on plate armor over the railfan window. Just kidding. :)
he he !
..........lol !
Hallelujah!
I'm sure that will make eight sore knees, eigth tired feet happy. That train needs all the seating it can get. It'll be interesting to watch the manouvers in the bucket seats. The bench type were so much more democratic for the various sizes. If ever any single item needed replacement its those buckets.
avid
U want Redbirds? Take my #5s PLEEESE thankyouverrrrymuch. CI Peter
You DO realize by saying that that Salaam is now flying east headed towards your yard with a Ryder truck to come collect some of 'em?
You DO realize by saying that that Salaam is now flying east headed towards your yard with a Ryder truck to come collect some of 'em?
It better not be a Ryder... seeing as how that brand seems to be the choice of radical extremists... oh wait, never mind :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
???....................................................you said ...............................& ........@$%%&*&^()()_!!!
""You DO realize by saying that that Salaam is now flying east headed towards your yard with a Ryder truck to come collect some of 'em? ""
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????..........................................!
on the greyhound ?.....like that commercial that says .............................
" woooooah " ! but wait a minute ..............youre' a dog !! ............( greyhound radio commercial ) ..........
actually i did move 3 X with U haul ...........lol !! ...drove my 1982 chevrolet ...rode amtracks
southwestern chief & the lake shore limited..............( ryder ) ?? ...................no way jose !...........lol !!
Yeah, but we already measured a Gray running mutt and unfortunately, not even a storm door would fit in there, much less all the rusted panels that come off a genuwine redbird ... gonna need a 60 footer truck for that and last I saw, U-Haul doesn't go over 40 feet. I really am looking out for ya guy, constantly trying to find a way to get you your own rustboid. :)
come on man I can roll wioth a good clean joke buy Y do some of U folk' insist on sticking me with a Ryder Truck ??......!
& then what in the hell am i supposed to do with it ?? deliver valentines ?? ...he he he ...
lol !!
But ... you don't look at all "Middle eastern" and we know you was born here, so that wasn't the point ... there aren't a whole lot of rental truck companies that'll lease out a flatbed to bring home the birdies ... c'mon, bro ... we KNOW you want one. :)
Gee whizz...are we back to profiling again? Schools in western New Jersey require kids to have photo IDs precluding infiltration of midgets and dwarfs. Anyone ever see a 'limbo bar?' No one ever denied the rental of a box truck to 'thankyouverrrrymuch.' We got em in TA with a smile in the transverse cab...double or nothing that the fuse is too short.
come on man I can roll with a good clean joke buy Y do some of U folk' insist on sticking me with a Ryder Truck ??......!
& then what in the hell am i supposed to do with it ?? deliver valentines ?? ...he he he ...
lol !!
Turner diaries
question... like ted turner the owner of that atlanta based news outfit ?? name escapes me for the moment .... ( oh well ) ....
Why do I get the urge to do one of those spoof ads for Indigo and Chapters for Heather's Picks Rejects table...
-Robert King
Now I'm lost....we're not talking Agway anymore.
ryder ?? .........hell no !!
U haul !!
NOOO!!! I'm starting to love having my No.5 Redbirds. I am now enjoying these Redbirds as a C/R.
Don't worry the first R 142 In 5 service will start in less then 2 weeks.
Man, I *knew* you were going to be losing it eventually. Heh. So you like playing "keep your head out the window watching for drags, playing chicken with the station wall?" :)
I thought the 62s from the #3 will go to the 7 because they're supposed to get the option order of the R142s and the 6 will be all R142A, so their cars will go to the 7 as well.
Could be right (except R-62As, not R-62s), could be wrong. Since NO DECISION HAS BEEN MADE, it's impossible to say right now.
David
What vested interest would the TA have to remove transverse cabs? I find it impossible to believe that with OPTO spreading through the system, and the money spent on reinstalling the cab partitions to start, that they would spend even more dough removing them. Then again, one of a thousand "rumors".
Weren't R62's and R62a's built with convertible cabs to begin with? It shouldn't be too hard to simply re-convert them.
Yes, they were built with removable partitions on the #1 ends of the cars. Those were reinstalled when OPTO started in the IRT. The cubicle on the #2 end is permanant.
They are not removable - they are collapsible. On any 62type car, the transverse cab wall is already there. Just look at the wall where the small side window is.
ANYTHING in TA can be fixed or adjusted with a hammer (and sickle) and screwdriver. Yo Engine Brake: lemme know where you work at 207th so I can bug your car up on my next trip...I'll bring tools. CI Peter
I have operated many 62 & 62a, #2 ends with transverse cabs. No DC#1 or DC#2, but the D8 prevents the door from opening on both sides.
If funding permits, would you find that extending the (1) beyond 242 St. Van Cortlandt Park feasible?
Physcally it sure it is. Broadway is wide and their are building on only one side, the park on the east. I don't know if the passengers justify it, I get off at 238, one stop from the end and usually there are very few people left on the train by then. I know that 242 is a transfer point for people coming from Yonkers by bus, so maybe if it went to the city line you might get an increase in ridership.
I don't think it would be worth it. People coming from Yonkers on the Yonkers bus basically have an express from the city line to the subway at 242nd st. The only stops it makes south bound is red lights and to drop people off. North bound it only picks people up until the city line. New York City also has a bus line that covers the area from 242nd st to just about a block short of the city line.
I disagree. Buses are OK, but if the line were extended to the city boundary what would happen next is the express buses could cut their runs short (with total trip times reduced), and people who did not take the #1 train before will now be enticed onto it. In addition, you may get residential redevelopment triggered by the additional mass transit option.
It's an affordable, attractive idea, but not high on the list of priorities. Second Av, the 7 extension downtown and La Guardia rail access are going to be ahead of it; after that, well, the Capital Plan only has room for so much...
Setting aside the Bus issue and the prioritis issues. If they ever did decided to try to extend the 1 line, they probably would have a big uproar from all the people in the apartment houses across from Van Cortlandt Park. I know we're all rail fans, but which would you rather have a nice view of the park, or the view and sounds from the subway going by all hours of the day?
"or the view and sounds from the subway going by all hours of the day? "
The sound issue is a Dead Horse! and has been for many many years!
Sure oled existing elevates are noisey, but newly constructed lines are not. The Old Els were built to 1890 standards, Modern concrete, sound-proofed structres intended for high speed service are silent.
Look at the LIRR elevated structures. Trains ride on them at 80 MPH, and cannot be heard even by those on the platform if they should have their backs turned to the train.
The view problem is also easily resolved, since the east side of Broadway is in the park, the train line too, can be in the park or just running above the sidewalks on the park side. This can bring the bottom of the ROW down to just eight feet above ground level, and appartment views would not at all be obstructed.
Better yet, the line could be below grade and just inside of the park. Since there is no infrastructure in the way, it may prove to be even less costly than an elevated line.
So the only question remains is need, priority, and money.
Elias
There's not likely to be much of a NIMBY issue if this is done right. It's not a real long way to the countyline, but long enough so an extension would be useful, and a combination of below grade and unbderground construction will remove the noise factor.
Also, one incentive MTA could offer is to rebuild the line from 225 St on as a below grade run, dismantling a lot of the existing elevated and replacing it with new track, ADA-compliant stations and vastly superior landscaping, noise baffling and other goodies the existing El doesn't offer.
But $$$$ and priorities for spending are the biggest obstacles to this project. It will exist only on Subtalk for the foreseeable future.
Hey, I like the idea of putting it underground from 225 North, I live not even a block west of B'way on Kingsbridge Ave (between W236 and what would be W235 if it existed). I do hear the trains at night, but barely. But it still would be a nice improvement. But then my landlord might raise the rent!
Another factor, the 1 is a slow local line, I don't know how many people would be enticed out of cars or busses to ride an even longer local than we have now. To make this work, we would have to make use the middle track and run some kind of express. Selkirk (who would be my neightbor had I lived where I live now 40 years ago!) tells us about the old Broadway thru express, but that wasn't even too great according to him.
Any other ideas for improvements to the extened 1 to Yonkers? And don't even think of mentioning skip stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ORIGINAL plans for that "sector" involved extending the A TRAIN up Riverdale Avenue to 264th near Mount St Vincent ... and prior to the early 1950's, it COULD have been done. In all sincerity, that would make a WHOLE lot more sense than extending the IRT. The ride is already long and slow enough from where it leaves now. Just my two cents of course, now worth a penny. :)
I often wondered why the A stopped at 207. If one of the main factors in creating it was to compete with the IRT and BMT, the A to the Bronx would have made lots of sense; it was an express below 168 and it was underground.
DO yo know what killed the plan to go further north? Was it part of the Second System that died with the depression?
Piggo
Extending the (A) to Bronx is worthwhile, basically only the IRT is the only contender in Northwest Bronx. And for the East End of Bronx, the (N) should go up there to help decongest the Bronx portions of the Lexington Av. Services. Plus for the LaGuardia Airport route, use the (W) to operate between Whitehall and LaGuardia Airport (Express between Canal and 57 St.)
Well, it does have to stop at 207th or the cab will get crushed among other things. Sorry, I can never turn down a cheap shot. It wasn't built because there wasn't much of a population in Riverdale until the early 50's and once the high rises went up, the NIMBYs moved in en masse and feared that extending the A train through Riverdale would have brough in the "wrong kind of element" ... the proposal came through several times since but was always strenuously opposed by the residents and they had MUCHO political clout ... when I was a kid I lived at 238th and Johnson in an old building from before WWII ...
Nice one, the cab would take quite at the end of the plaform.
But the IRT went up there is 1907 or so, was the population enough to support one local line and the "brains" behind the IND figured it wasn't worth it to compete in that area? Or was the #1 built up that way as part of planned growth? We got a line near by, let's move into the outlying areas to spur growth.......
The BOTTOM of the hills had a good population center. After all, the entirety of Marble Hill was once a *HUGE* New York Central freight and car yard, the PUT ran up along what is now the Major Deegan and there were a lot of apartments built there when the IRT came to town. Riverdale on the other hand was *RURAL* compared to down in the valley there and until the early 1950's there wasn't much of a need to build a train up the hillside as there is since. The construction of the IRT populated the area considerably and as far as Yonkers went, they were a city with its OWN economy. There were nice trolleys that would take you down to VCP from Yonders if you really wanted to go to Manhattan and it worked out well in its old status quo ...
That is why, the MTA should resurrect the (9) for the express through Chambers St and 96 St. and the skip stop might be a questionable topic though. Of course this can only happen once the South Ferry Branch reopens and I think the South Ferry Station should have a traditional terminal layout of one island platform instead of the loop right now, because the loop limits the number of trains in the terminal to just one. Even if they try to resurrect the Inner Loop at the South Ferry, it's not feasible, due to the (5).
And the point of the 9 would be? Damned things only piled up behind the 1's and the 1's piled up behind the 9's ... skipstop is a CRUEL joke. It may shave off a minute at best but is more likely to just form a long conga line. I'm sure once the WTC segment has been rebuilt, the Broadway line will go back to its old lineage - it worked just fine as it was ...
As one Kingsbridge man to another, WELL SAID! The 9 served no purpose (except to the few who live at the all stop stations).
I know not that long ago someone posted the ridership figures for 191 Street (an all stop station) and Dyckman (only the 1 would stop in). At the time (I believe the numbers were from 1999) the ridership showed higher at 191 than Dyckman. As someone who rides past that area every day (some times more that a few times), I must say that today, Dyckman get a lot more passangers than 191. Since all trains are making all stops, you can get a pretty good feel for it. Every night, the train vurtually empties at Dyckman, a few folks get off at 191. I can't figure why 191 is all stop (it was only #9 originally) and Dyckman is only one train.
But let's keep hoping that the 9 is history. As you state so well, skip/stop (on the 1 line) is a cruel joke...........
191 was made "all stop" because the residents of the area made enough noise to have it changed.
Speaking of skip stop service, wasn't there a plan to have a skip stop line running with the L. What ever happened to that.
And since I never ride the Jamaica Line at rush hour, do people generally like the J/Z service (including the TA), it seems to have been running for almost 14 years now.
From what I have heard, the J/Z skip/stop works pretty well. Is long enought to make it worth while, you skip a bunch of stops! On the 1/9 the most you skip is 3! It can work, but you need the proper set up, J/Z works 1/9 doesn't!
"Speaking of skip stop service, wasn't there a plan to have a skip stop line running with the L."
It might be less effective on the L. According to the MTA schedules, skip stop saves 5 of 51 minutes on the J/Z, at the cost of increasing headways from 5 minutes to 10 minutes.
The L route is only 41 minutes long, with the same current headway of 5 minutes. So the benefit would probably be slightly less, while the cost (reduced service) would be the same.
The L train currently runs 8 car trains
Reducing this to 5 cars would allow headways to be reduced to 3 minutes, with 6 extra cars needed (if my mental arithmetic's right). That would leave a skip-stop headway of 6 minutes, which would be a very good service.
I dunno ... the only justification for "skip stop" is a bad order train on its way to a layup somewhere ... it's the next best thing for most people to just cutting the "service" on a line in half. Either provide REAL express service, or don't muck around. I'd bet the J and Z is no bargain either.
I agree with that. Most passengers aren't fooled by the whole "skip-stop" idea. Either a train runs express or local.
Or it just crawls ... :)
In Philly, the Market-Frankford line has run a skip-stop service for a very long time at rush hour. (Only two tracks on this line). I don't see them abandoning it, and I don't hear very many complaints about it.
Skip stop seems to work well on the right lines. Someone mentioned it works pretty well on the J/Z. I wonder why they don't extend it beyond rush hours then. I've only gotten to ride the Z once, because I hardly ever ride the Jamaica line at rush hour. Whenever I do, it's usually before or after rush hour.
You can't do it in non-rush hours because there's only 6 tph total. Skip top would mean 20 minutes between trains.
Skip stop also has the express run in Brooklyn, people forget that.
There are some complaints mostly at 111 st which apparently is a big stop for both trains to skip. I used to work around there and that was the number one complaint all trains skipped them.
Of course if you did that at Woodhaven they all know to call it in.
You better believe your rent will go up!
>> Any other ideas for improvements to the extened 1 to Yonkers? <<
I seem to recall a subway to Yonkers Raceway; I'm not old enough to remember the subway, but the clubhouse had a stairway that led there at least into the 1970's until they filled it in. Yet I have scoured this site and others and see no mention of it anywhere. Am I dreaming this or did it really exist? Possibly it was removed when the New York State Thruway was constructed?
By "subway" they could have meant an underground walkway of some sort. Could also have been a bus or Yonkers trolley that connected to perhaps the WPR line which seems the closest.
Of cours it may have just been a shop that sold sandwiches.
Elias
There was never a subway that went to Yonkers Raceway. There was a railroad that (I think) went there. I think it was the Putnam. On Metro-North north of Universary Heights and before the curve going to Marble Hill, The Putnum started its own route from there. Most of the ROW has long since been cleared. Walk through Van Courtlant Park and the ROW can be seen. That might be the "subway" that you remember.
For some reason my 1990s vintage Hagstrom's atlas still has the Putnam Line on it. It runs through Van Cortlandt Park just east of the Henry Hudson/Saw Mill, so it's well to the west of Yonkers Raceway.
i worked at Yonkers Track in mid 70's. there was a lower closed level below the grand stand. i think it was a bus station or may trollys. i spend 4 weeks breaking up old equiment down there
There never was any subway service, or any rail service to Yonkers Raceway (YR). The subway sign at YR was to indicate where the buses TO the subway picked up passengers. The specials went to Woodlawn & Bedford Pk Blvd. Special bus service was discontinued in the mid-80's. It was popular back when YR used to get 40,000 people on a Friday or Saturday night in the 60's and early 70's. Now, they draw about 800 a night.
>>> Look at the LIRR elevated structures. Trains ride on them at 80 MPH, and cannot be heard even by those on the platform if they should have their backs turned to the train. <<
Well, they aren't *that* quiet. But they are quiet enough.
Yes, I agree with the 2nd Av. project, because it was meant to decongest the Lexington Lines, the (7) to downtown is very well justified, because if the passengers on the (7) that would like to reach downtown, it had to transfer in Manhattan at Grand Central Station (already overcrowded) and Times Square (Also overcrowded). For the LaGuardia Airport, I know MTA is most likely to use Astoria for the extension.
Not in the age of subway -> bus transfers.
No.
Well it is worthwhile though, if you were to ignore about your subway to bus transfers.
All facts considered.. No.
What?! Someone you know complaining about deboarding
at Van Cortlandt to have to ride Bee-Line for just
a mere few more blocks?
Is that cause for 1-line extension?
Majority of people who get ON Bee-Line at 242
ride for MORE than just a few blocks...
The NYC Subway was made BY us... yet it's
workings and trackings (may not) always
convenience US... we are a mass public.
Not just 1 person.
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Oh boy, did my wife come through big time for me for Valentine's Day. She bought me a Nike shirt that has a nice sized N in front and in my favorite colors of Orange and Blue. Besides that there is a semi circle that looks like the entrance to a tunnel. It really looks sharp and I had to share this with you guys. I probably will have something embroaded on it to give it even more pizaaz. I can tell you it is a hell of sight to see. Eat your hearts out IRT fans.
IRT? Whats that?
The Interborough Rapid Transit Subway. In other words, currently all of the numbered lines.
CCTC - the guy was being sarcastic. That is what we IRT fans have come to expect from "dose" guys.
Aw come Alan, it is all is fun. Look at the way I get panned all the time by the Brighton Boys. I even found out my blood brother Train Dude is also a Brighton man. Good God, I feel like Custer at Little Big Horn. But let's face it, your IRT is very small potatoes in Brooklyn. There the BMT rules and always has. Stick to the Bronx.
"IRT, what's that?" Engine Brake, you're a man after my own heart. Bless you son. And have a great day. I have to remember that. IRT, what's that? Priceless.
Sea Beach Fred, I've seen your other "N" shirt when I saw you on the April Fools' Day field trip.
#3 West End Jeff
Fred:
Do you have an official "N" shirt from the TA yet, the kind they sell at the Transit Museum store?
I've got my "F" and "N".
Do they still have an Orange Q t-shirt??????
Don't remember seeing one at the Museum store in GCT.
The Last Lex by Karl Burkhardt.
How many SubTalkers have been on a last run? More than one? I never have.
Nothing beats an eyewitness account, I always say.
I was on the last trolley to leave the old MBTA Green Line Canal Street/North Station (lower) terminal and associated trackage before it was removed from service for Big Dig construction (about five years ago?). Prior to the removal, C/Cleveland Circle cars terminated there, while E/Heath cars continued through North Station (upper) to Lechmere, and B/Cleveland Circle and D/Riverside cars short turned at Government Center. After the change, D and E cars were routed to Lechmere, and B and C cars were turned at Government Center.
I was on the final run of Boston's old Orange Line el in April 1975. The last revenue trains must have left each terminal, Forest Hills in the South, and Oak Grove up north, sometime around or after 11:30 since I remember returning to Forest Hills between midnight and 12:30 am.
I was living in Watertown at the time, and during the evening convinced one of my roommates that "Yeah we should go out and ride the last train." We drove south, in his car, on local streets, through Brighton, Roxbury, and Dorchester arriving at Forest Hills around 11:30. It was an "Autumn style" chill night up on the platform, and fares were not being collected. A lot of MBTA staff were on the platform greeting people. There was an air of anticipation, sort of like when crowds gather outdoors on New Years eve. I remember thinking this is what it must have been like in 1955 for the last 3rd Ave. El train.
We pulled out shortly afterwards and the train was packed. It was in regular service, so it stopped at each station. Nobody was getting on or off. At Essex, the first stop underground, everbody jumped off the train, and stampeded to the underpass to meet the last Southbound train on the other side.
Returning southbound the train was noisier, with the crowd shouting out the name of each station as we stopped at each one. I remember standing next to BSRA member Eugene Victory, who was talking stats: the number of bents in the entire line, the steel used to build it, the number of ties within each bent etc.
We got back to Forest Hills, and the crowd moved slowly along the platform towards the stairs. "The last train" still had operate north over line once more. MBTA employees and I think a couple of BSRA people were on the train when the doors closed and it left on its actual, final run north. When my roommate and I got to the street, we saw MBTA employees standing by all the stairways with 10 foot high or so rolls of cyclone fencing to stretch across each stairway entrance. The stairways to the northbound platform had already been closed off.
We pulled back in the driveway at Watertown around 1 am. We had been a part of Boston transit history, and it all had gone so quickly; we'd left only a little over two hours before.
>>>>I was on the final run of Boston's old Orange Line el in April 1975. <<<
I remember the el structure at least, on Washington St as late as 1985. Am I correct?
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>>I was on the final run of Boston's old Orange Line el in April 1975. <<<
I remember the el structure at least, on Washington St as late as 1985. Am I correct?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oh God, what a mistake. Yes, the el on Washington Street was up as late as 1985. I was typing away and got the dates mixed up. I rode the last train on the southern portion; from the portal south of Essex Street to Forest Hills, when service ended in April *1985*. It was the Northern end of the Orange Line: North Station to Everett that ended service in April 1975, ten years earlier. I did not ride the last train up there, but did go out with my camera on the last day of service, it was rainy and sleeting, to take two rolls of black and white photos.
Never been on a final run, but 32 years ago (was about 5:00 AM on a Sunday morning in February, 1970), I drove out to Jefferson Park in Chicago to ride the first revenue run of the Milwaukee Ave (now O'Hare Blue) Line extension from Logan Square to Jefferson Park.
-- Ed Sachs
I've been on several memorable last runs. I was on the last run of Chicago's Broadway streetcar line. My picture was published in the CTA's Transit News, with the conductor punching my transfer. (Remember streetcar conductors?) In June 1958 I was on the last streetcar run in Chicago on Wentworth Avenue. In January 1963 I was on the last run of the North Shore Line from Milwaukee to Chicago, ending up at Roosevelt Road at 3:00 am in bitter -20 degree cold, a night I'll never forget.
George, although the papers said it was 'only' -12 it sure was cold. It was a sad trip just a year after closing down DC Transit. It has been a real pleasure in recent decades to go on first runs instead.
I'll be damned. You were on two final streetcar runs? Believe it or not, tomorrow will mark 45 years since that last #36 Broadway run, on Feb. 16, 1957. My aunt lives a block east of Broadway at Winthrop and Catalpa. I always think of Green Hornets gliding by whenever I walk across Broadway.
I've seen several photos of 7213 on the last run of the #22 Wentworth route. One shows the motorman and conductor shaking hands at the end of the line. For the record, was that on June 20 or 21st, 1958? The 21st fell on Saturday, IIRC.
One thing I regret is being too young to remember streetcars in Chicago. I was 19 months old when streetcars entered history in the Windy City.
There was a magazine article in 1991 about the return of IRM's Electroliner to museum after undergoing restoration, 50 years after its inaugural North Shore run. It started with a recollection of that final trip in January of 1963.
Incidentally, it was Green Hornet 7201 which made that last run on Broadway 45 years ago. I looked it up in my copy of Chicago Surface Lines.
The closest I came to a "final run" was on a J train on the afternoon of 4/15/85. It wasn't the last official train from Queens Blvd, but it was the last day that service went east of 121 St.
Actually, I was on a seasonal last run, which isn't the same as a real last run, I guess.
It was on the Great Orme Railway, the odd double funicular, possibly the only one in the world which operates partly in a public street. MY wife and I headed up on a cool autumn day, which turned into a cold windy autumn day as we switched cars to the go to the top.
We were the only passengers.
When we finally got back to the station in the town of Llandudno, Wales, they began shutting everything down, and I asked why. We were told that this was the last day of the season and that there were supposed to be more trips but there was no one waiting so they weren't going to bother.
In fact, they wouldn't even have sent up the car we came back down on, but they had to bring us back.
I rode the last "D" train from Coney Island in July 2001. It was by coincidence actually though! But as a railfan, i'm glad to have the expierience of riding the Last "D" train across Manny B.
LightRailChic formerly known as Ms.SEPTA
Great story, it seems that everyone in Brooklyn was a trainbuff for an evening. It's also so sad when I realize how much class and closeness, amoung common, average people, has been lost over the past half century. We all seem to be spiraling towards... :^(
Last Runs: Last CNJ trains to and from Broad Street Station,Newark.
Last CNJ train into Jersey City.
Last eastbound CNJ ferry to Liberty Street
Last Broadway Train via north side of Manny B, a T
Last QT from Coney Island
Last QT from Astoria
Last 3 Avenue El train in The Bronx
Rode the Madrid streetcars during there last week in service.
Last trip of the SPV's on Metro-North
Larry,RedbirdR33
And that ain't a bad twin towers article on that site either
http://myrecollection.com/matusp/1967pretwin.html
I believe that is the old Singer Building in the background, the tallest building ever to come down, until 9/11/01.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was the last revenue passenger on car 7083, 884 block, the last revenue streetcar in Baltimore on Sunday, November 3, 1963.
I was one of two "passengers" on the R10 trip in 1989, that rode the train back to 207 Street Yard when everyone else was discharged. Nice muscle up Central Park West, should have been part of the trip.
You're telling me.
William Padron says it was even signed up as an A at that point. A fitting way for my beloved Thunderbirds to ride off into subway history.
Karl is a bit older than I thought (LOL)
My paternal grandfather used the Lex to get from Elderts Lane to the Bklyn Navy yard where he worked during WWII.
I happend to be on the last Yonge-University-Spadina line run of a train of H1 cars quite by accident. It was during rush hour on a Friday and I was heading home from the dentist so I had rode in to St. Clair station on the streetcar and I got down one flight of stairs to the bus level of the station and I could hear the gearwhine of H1s approaching the subway station downstairs - but I didn't know whether or not it was northbound or southbound. I was fairly sure it sounded like it was comeing up the hill from Summerhill so I dashed down the stairs to the northbound platform just as it was stopping and I managed to zip onto the last car before the doors shut.
I stayed on the train past my station and rode up to Finch having decided to stay on at Finch and ride round to Downsview and back to my station and make it my last real ride on an H1 since they were almost gone. My plan got foiled at Finch when the guard started to do the standard TTC announcement saying that the train was out of service and everybody had to get off and not to board it to those standing on the platform. When the door shut and the guard walked up to the last car I asked why it had been taken out of service since it seemed to be running fine. The driver told me that the train was old and it was now being taken out of service - permanently. I hopped on the train sitting at the other side of the platform at Finch and rode it to Davisville where I got off and saw the train of H1s follow a few minutes later, ripping through the station with out stopping. It was a few months later that I found out that it was indeed the last YUS H1 run, and that I'd lucked into it completely by chance by being at St. Clair at the right time and guesstimating which direction it was coming from correctly.
-Robert King
Well since the topic was Brought up on a previous thread I will explain There seems to Be More ( out the Closet) Perrsonnel than I can Recall.Seems to be a majority of Lesbians On the transit front are out the closet, But to Be Honest I dont care Sexual prefference is one thing Railfanning is another.Blessing the cab is a personal Milestone everyone does it in there own way, Mine was done on the 7 On a redbird express trip , never to be forgotten But sex Doesnt belong on Subtalk.
Then why bring it up anyway.
Robert
If it doesn't belong here, why did you post it anyway?
THINK BEFORE YOU SLAM THAT SEND BUTTOM!!!!
And it's a good thing too.
Like Irish and Anglicans?
Last night while I was at 207st yard I saw 8118-8120 on 23 track in the barn. I saw the TSS who works the R143's Deliverys and he said that 8117 was do in that night. He said that once it is in it would be transfered to East New York Yard. Well on my way up town with mt Work Train I saw the train of R143's going downtown at 125st @ about 2:45am.
Well this now makes 5 set on site.
Robert
Robert, I thought we only had 8101-8116 on the property, and now 8117-8120, that's only 2 1/2 sets, unless you are counting the MU's in 4-car pairings.
That's right, they're being delivered in 4-car sets.
5 four car sets. That is how I ment it.
Robert
Is the original test R143 still in service, and if not where is it?
Probably between Howard Beach and Broad Channel. It hangs there alot when not in revenue service. :^)
Nope, its out of service for now. It has been getting upgrades since it passed its 30-day test in January. -Nick
Hi,
I am taking my mother to two doctors in the 70th and park ave area this morning... We are driving from Sheepshead Bay area in Brooklyn.
How is the best way to go? I was thinking Prospect expy to battery tunnel to fdr... but is the tunnel open towards manhattan?
Thanks for the help.
Allen
Ocean Pkwy and the Prospect or the Belt Pkwy to the Gowanus, keep right to get on the BQE instead of the tunnel. BQE to the Brookyln Bridge (keep right again) and then the bridge to the FDR drive (keep on keeping on to the right) and take it uptown to the 61st St. exit (surprise -- left exit here) and then go crosstown to Park Ave. and then nine blocks north to 70th Street. Good luck parking...
I am spotting new towers (beige with green siding), build near most of the 7 El stations. Are these part of the signal upgrading project. I mean, what system is being replaced and is there anything wrong about it?
I guess its fair you can say goodbye to the US&S pneumatic switches and stops there.
They contain whatever is needed for the new Control Center to be able to run the railroad.
Seems like an awful lot of wasted space for a Ouija board, some bubblegum and some bailing wire. :)
Don't forget the Fisher-Price radio base station! (ask your parents to put it together)
Heh. A pair of squawkies would do the trick - with all that bailing wire, I'd bet you could bring in signals from Tierra Del Fuego. :)
The R-143 is not mentioned by name but a good description (from a passengers point of view is given.
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-02-15/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-141518.asp
The NEWS says that they should be rolling in revenue service this week, which is pretty much what we have saying on this board. Let's keep an eye out.
Why did I immediately start thinking about the LIRR when I first read this story?
I didn't necessarily think of the LIRR, but I do believe that being Minister for Afghanistan's Minister for Tourism has to be one of the worlds least desirable jobs. Throw in the added bonus of being Minister for Aviation with responsiblity over the travel plans of angry pilgrims and I'd have to say you've got about the worst job a guy could have.
I won't be sending in my resume for this one.
CG
Reminds me of a line from Norm McDonald from SNL's "Weekend Update", "According to Forbes the best job title from last year, such-and-such, has been replaced this year by such-and-such. In other news Last year's worst job title, Crack Whore, has been replaced this year by an even worse one, Assistant Crack Whore."
:-D Andrew
Bloomie is floating the idea of tolling all East River crossings, effectively making it impossible to leave Long Island in a motor vehicle without paying.
Let's say the tolls are instituted.
Where do you put the tollbooths? Assuming some of the booths will be non-EZPass, what do you do with the traffic that will be backed up at the tollbooths? Where does it go? Taking the Manhattan Bridge as an example, it connects Flatbush Avenue and Canal Street, both of which are pretty jammed WITHOUT tolls.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The tolls are more an effort, IMHO, to control access rather than to raise money. Jaming up the trafic, making it impossible to get near the bridges anyway will also control access.
IMO tolls might be free from 7PM to 5AM
and then $4.00 (cars $20.00 trucks) from 5AM to 9AM
and then $4.00 (cars $10.00 trucks) from 9AM to NOON
and then $4.00 (cars free for trucks) from Noon to 7PM
All tolls are round rip, collected inbound, all lanes EZ-PASS.
No EZ-PASS? Use the tunnels!
Elias
"No EZ-PASS? Use the tunnels!"
Good idea even if it'll be a hard sell.
If you look at the toll booths at the Midtown Tunnel now, most booths are still handling money. But they take so much longer to serve a car that the few EZ Pass booth are handling 2/3 of the traffic. You don't need many EZ Pass booths to handle a bridge load of cars.
Certainly also inbound only. No room for toll booths in Manhattan.
Certainly also inbound only. No room for toll booths in Manhattan.
As if there's room for tollbooths in Brooklyn along the BQE?
Isn't there something to be said for being able to get from one part of a city to another without paying a toll. The folks on Staten Island have had a resonable complaint along these line for a long time. Tolls on the free bridges would expand this problem, is you lived on SI, you now must pay to get off that island, but at least you have the option to not pay another toll on the way in to your job in Manhattan. Now SI people would have mandatory tolls of more than $10 per day!
The westbound one-way toll on the Verrazano is currently $7. EZ-Pass users pay $6. S.I. residents using EZ-pass pay $3.20. The problem with congestion pricing is that it penalizes people that have to be at work on time, at a specified time. When I moved here I knew I'd have to pay a toll, but $10 is extreme.
Or you can get on a bus for, I believe, $1.50, then get on a free ferry. Sounds appealing, no?
Or room for toll booths in Queens Plaza? When I heard about this idea I laughed trying to imagine how they'd shoehorn a set of toll booths into that tiny, crowded approach.
Dan
(Or room for toll booths in Queens Plaza?)
You can pretty much expect the East River bridges to be EZ Pass only, with cash customers directed to the tunnels. The only problem is those traveling from Queens and points north to Lower Manhattan. There is no tunnel equivalent to the Willie B.
While we're at it lets raise the subway fare to $4 also. That would relieve the overcrowding on the trains.
I say it's crazy.
What next, tolls on foot bridges? Highway overpasses? Tolls to cross streets?
Don't want to give anyone any ideas.
In principle I agree with the idea. I think that if anything the brigdges between Brooklyn/Queens and Manhattan SHOULD be tolled while those from Brooklyn/Queens to The Bronx and Staten Island should not be. If the idea is to subsidise public transit, then the drivers it should punnish should be the ones who could reasonably take public transit to the same destination.
Of course, in parctice we could be dealing with a logistical nightmare. Flatbush Ave, Queens Blvd. Are these any places to put tollbooths?
:-) Andrew
Flatbush Ave, Queens Blvd. Are these any places to put tollbooths?
It could be done, but there are plenty of side streets that would see huge traffic increases.
My own view is to raise the cost of parking. Instead of raising tolls on the Hudson or tolling the E River bridges, you impose a pricey permit system for street parking, while also raising taxes on private parking spaces. The permits would be sold at bridge toll booths.
For Manhattan street parking, I'd auction off spaces annually, turning it essentially into private property for the times parking is legal.
While we're at it, why not do what Singapore does. Impose a fee to be in the CBD with a car during rush hours. No need to slap tolls on the bridges. I don't know how this fee would be collected or enforced, but a fact-finding visit to Singapore would get that figured out.
Tolls on the East River bridges is an idea that has been floated before and always shot down. I am pretty sure it'll get shot down this time around, too.
--Mark
"Impose a fee to be in the CBD with a car during rush hours. No need to slap tolls on the bridges. I don't know how this fee would be collected or enforced, but a fact-finding visit to Singapore would get that figured out."
But wouldn't the most efficient way to charge cars to be in the CBD (and how are you defining the CBD?) to toll them as they enter? And wouldn't that entry route be for most cars the bridges and tunnels?
I support tolling auto use in the CBD. Clearly an electronic scanning system would be needed. In answer to your questio, Manhattan above 145th is not IMHO in he CBD though 'downtown Brooklyn' is.
CBD is from the Battery to 96 St, river to river.
If one is to belive the article that was posted about the Westchester Railroad, the Business district ends at 59th Street.
I cannot think of any major corporations or businesses north of that.
So the Battery to 59th Street is sufficient.
People *living* (major domocile) south of 59th, may register thier cars there, if and only if, they have a parking place.
I think that cars should use the Avenues and that trucks should be restricted to the streets. That by definition eliminates on street parking for cars.
I think that trucking and deliver companies should sit down with the city, and negeotiate for entry points and curb time, the goal being that the overnignt deliver folks would know were to be and where to park to get their packages in on time, followed by other scheduled deliveries, the Pepsi and Coke turcks etc. Nobody needs to fight for curb time, and traffic will move move freely.
Elias
"I think that cars should use the Avenues and that trucks should be restricted to the streets."
How does a car go crosstown or a truck uptown or downtown?
"How does a car go crosstown or a truck uptown or downtown?"
The major crosstown streets are reserved to cars: 14, 23, 34, 42, 57, and 59
The Outside Avenues 1, 2, 10, 11, 12 are open to trucks.
Elias
>>> the goal being that the overnignt deliver folks would know were to be and where to park to get their packages in on time, followed by other scheduled deliveries, the Pepsi and Coke turcks etc <<<
A great theory, but it will not work in practice. Overnight delivery by UPS and FedEx and even the U.S. Mail depend upon taking in and delivering packages all over town all day long and transporting them by air during the night. They cannot be shut out of the CBD during the day. The same goes with the Coke, Pepsi and Frito-Lay trucks, unless you are ready to require the owners of small stores to be there overnight to accept deliveries that they now get while they are open.
Tom
FedEx truck are on a time sensitive rush to get incoming distributed before what? 10AM. Pepsi does not have that contractual obligation and 11 to ?? is fine with them.
Sure these trucks *have* to be there all day, and deliveries to small stores cannot be made at night.
The key to this concept is that these users would get together, with their wish-lists and work out a street by street, truck by truck schedule to provide optimal use of limited facilities.
It will speed up USP's schedules to know that they have so and such a parking place for thier truck between 9:00 AM and 9:30 AM and again between 3:00 PM and 3:30 PM.
Looks to me like an 18 tpd headway for each parking spot. You work the whole block (almost) from one parking place. You almost have to do that anyway.
Wharehouse districts (Garment District) need different parameters, but might also be happy to work later into the evening, or perhaps even with a night shift if that is what it takes to get lower shipping rates.
I do believe that the NYT does not mind receiving newsprint in the middle of the night.
Elias
The Times receives newsprint at all hours - many times while working at 55 and 9, I was passed by newsprint heading downtown at noon, at 3pm, at 9am - whenever the truck made it into the city.
"The Times receives newsprint at all hours - many times while working at 55 and 9, I was passed by newsprint heading downtown at noon, at 3pm, at 9am - whenever the truck made it into the city."
Yup.... and if they charge a $50.00 for big trucks to enter the city between 7:AM and 7:PM, they will quickly figure out how to handle the trucks at night.
Elias
>>> FedEx truck are on a time sensitive rush to get incoming distributed before what? 10AM. Pepsi does not have that contractual obligation and 11 to ?? is fine with them. <<<
What are the Pepsi drivers supposed to do until 11:00 A.M.? And if they do not start deliveries until 11:00 A.M. they will have to be making deliveries all through the evening rush hours.
>>> The key to this concept is that these users would get together, with their wish-lists and work out a street by street, truck by truck schedule to provide optimal use of limited facilities <<<
That would be quite a feat. These trucks are not like fixed route buses that are at the same places at the same times each day. Each driver looks at his pick ups and deliveries each day and figures out the order that makes the most sense, possibly constrained by business priorities and the position on the truck that items are loaded. Even then, his route may be changed during the day for emergency pick ups.
>>> I do believe that the NYT does not mind receiving newsprint in the middle of the night. <<<
Is the NYT still printed in Manhattan? Most newspapers now send the editorial matter to printing presses located outside the CBD electronically. The printing facilities look more like a trucking center than anything else with incoming newsprint by rail or truck on one side and trucks picking up newspapers on the other side. Here in Los Angeles, it has been several years since the Los Angeles Times was printed at its downtown editorial headquarters.
Tom
Is the NYT still printed in Manhattan? Most newspapers now send the editorial matter to printing presses located outside the CBD electronically. The printing facilities look more like a trucking center than anything else with incoming newsprint by rail or truck on one side and trucks picking up newspapers on the other side. Here in Los Angeles, it has been several years since the Los Angeles Times was printed at its downtown editorial headquarters.
Same with the NY Times, it has two printing facilities: At Edison, NJ for points, west, northwest and southwest of the city and possibly Staten Island, with another one in College Point, Queens for Long Island, Royal Island, points north and northeast of the city and Manhattan and the Bronx.
I've experienced the Singapore system. They use EZ-Pass type devices mounted overhead. Pass an intersection, pay a fee.
I've herd that a yearly sticker with a bar code type incription would be scanned by a scanner mounted near an entrance ramp,some states have meter ramps that you must stop and then go when the light goes green this would be the time the scanner would tag your plate which you would then get a bill in the mail for use of the bridge or road.
My own view is to raise the cost of parking. Instead of raising tolls on the Hudson or tolling the E River bridges, you impose a
pricey permit system for street parking, while also raising taxes on private parking spaces. The permits would be sold at bridge
toll booths.
Very good idea. Unlike tolls, higher parking charges wouldn't penalize people who are just passing through Manhattan, for example someone driving from Brooklyn to Jersey City.
"Very good idea. Unlike tolls, higher parking charges wouldn't penalize people who are just passing through Manhattan, for example someone driving from Brooklyn to Jersey City. "
I disagree -- this would encourage people to "pass through" Manhattan on their way from Long Island, Queens and Brooklyn on their way to New Jersey -- negating the desired effect of reducing traffic. Currently, congestion within Manhattan entices many potential passers-through to just go around (or at least to go across on the GWB approach). As higher parking charges would also be borne by Manhattan residents who own cars it is also a sure way to lose votes in the next election.
Any good politician knows that the best revenue dollar is one raised from people who don't vote for you. People who are "just passing through" are the best source for such items. This is why the sales tax rate on hotels, rental cars, Manhattan parking (for non-residents) and similar items are so much higher than the general sales tax rate and why airports like O'Hare and Hartsfield thrive on per passenger takeoff and landing fees.
CG
As higher parking charges would also be borne by Manhattan residents who own cars it is also a sure way to lose votes in the next election.
Not necessarily. The demand for street parking is so extreme in some neighborhoods, that some sort of auction system restricted to residents-only would likely be very popular. You'd be keeping non-resident cars out of the neighborhood.
As for non-5-boro cars, they'd be hit hard. Lots of actual residents register their cars elsewhere to cut insurance costs. A pricey street parking permit system would give them motivation to 'legalize' their cars.
That's been tried repeatedly in the city of Smallbany and each and every time it was done, lawsuits were filed, and each and every time the decision of the judges was that EVERYBODY including out of towners paid taxes paid for street maintenance and therefore everybody was entitled to park on a first come, first served basis. In Albany and other cities, "residential parking permits" were tried. They were declared unconstitutional on that basis ... nice subtalk thought of course, but wouldn't pass legal muster ...
Unconstitutional? IF so, this would have to be the NY state constitution, as other states have resident-only parking regulations.
Change the Constitution, then.
Dunno ... all I know is they keep tryin' and it keeps dyin' ... if you have a decent mass transit system, you don't really NEED a car and if you can afford a car, maybe you don't need to live "downtown" ... In da city, I just don't see the POINT of having a car. Someone's going to take it away from you and chances are it'll be the city. Hell, the parking "rents" alone off street is reason enough not to have one if the insurance isn't enough reason.
Out where I live, you NEED a car. In da city, you really don't. It's a LOT cheaper to just take the train and you guys at least HAVE one.
I'm not certain that non-resident parking is the problem in neighborhood on-street parking. As a result, resident permits would neither help nor hurt the parking situation, but would cost votes.
In my 5 years on the upper west side (I suspect the same is true in most residential areas), parking was generally at its worst after 10PM on weeknights -- the time when it was mainly a case of too many residents competing for too few spaces. At 1AM on a Wednesday, you can circle for hours waiting for someone to leave, and it just doesn't happen. Resident permits wouldn't change that -- they'd just impose a tax for the status quo.
I think the East River tolls could serve the dual purpose of limiting Manhattan traffic and raising revenue. You could even price them so that the real target is passers-through. How much lighter would traffic be on Canal Street if there were a $1 toll on the inbound East River crossings but a $20 surcharge if you entered the Holland Tunnel within 2 hours of an East River crossing.
CG
In my more anti-car moments, I've thought that the changeover time for alternate-side-of-the-street parking should be 3AMish.
As for UE/UW side street parking, some streets actually have 'valets' who hog the spaces, arrange for moving the cars to meet alternate side rules, etc. Unless you pay the 'valets' you'll never get a parking place.
"In my more anti-car moments, I've thought that the changeover time for alternate-side-of-the-street parking should be 3AMish"
In my city days, I'd have been a fervent opponent -- I was on the second floor overlooking the street. I guess I would have qualified as a NIMFY -- Not In My Front Yard.
The valets operated on my block, but they only took up about 1/3 of the available spaces. On some streets it's considerably more, though.
CG
"In my 5 years on the upper west side (I suspect the same is true in most residential areas), parking was generally at its worst after 10PM on weeknights -- the time when it was mainly a case of too many residents competing for too few spaces."
In the East Village it's definitely the non-residents who create the parking problems. Bad times are weekend nights when the folks come in from the burbs. Also bad are weekday mornings when people working in the neighborhood grab spaces.
When I had to drive to the suburbs to work and came back home around 6 PM the parking was really easy. Lots of non-residents leaving spaces on their way home.
In the East Village it's definitely the non-residents who create the parking problems. Bad times are weekend nights when the folks come in from the burbs.
Just remember those folks from the burbs are pumping money into the economy. I don't think anyone wants to go back to the time after 9/11 when no one was coming to the city.
Okay, let me get this straight. Bloomberg is trying to keep businesses in town thru low taxes and other incentives, yet he wants to charge people to enter Manhattan to get to those businesses. So when people dump their cars at home and take the train/subway/bus, they'll be even tighter sardine cans.
A contradiction, perhaps? Or am I missing something?
So when people dump their cars at home and take the
train/subway/bus, they'll be even tighter sardine cans.
Yup. Pressure then builds to improve transit. When the real estate interests get behind it, things happen.
Yup. Pressure then builds to improve transit. When the real estate interests get behind it, things happen.
Yippee!!!!!! Sounds like I'll be riding the Subway through South 4th Street in my lifetime!!!
Much of NYC's real estate, and Manhattan's real estate in particular, obtains its value from the existance of the subways. And the real powers in NYC are the real estate interests. When the real estate interests conclude their investments are jeopardized by inadequate subway service, then something will happen.
We almost need a transit strike again to remind us all of what happens when the subways close down. Taylor Law or no, the tenants of the big office buildings hit the panic button and lean on politicians.
(Yup. Pressure then builds to improve transit. When the real estate interests get behind it, things happen. )
If that's what you want, propose a permanant development moratorium east of 5th Avenue from the Harlem River to 14th Street -- no capacity. It is the Flushing Line extension argument in reverse -- no transit, no development.
I'm the first to say 'build it and they will come'. But building it takes pressure from those who count. Only when the likes of Trump, Silverstein, et al. perceive their investments are being damaged will any serious subway enlargements occur.
East River tolls is an idea that is resurrected whenever the city has financial difficulties. I remeber it first being proposed in 1975 when the city was really in the hole. Politically and logistically, it will never happen. Raising tolls and/or taxes during an economic downturn will only make things worse. All the other schemes mentioned here like charging residents for on street parking will never happen either. Dinkins (of course) floated that idea in the early 1990s and it was roundly criticized. Bloomberg understands the serious nature of the city's problems in the post 9/11 world. NYC can't do anything at this point in time to alienate productive businesses and persons.
I suspect we're looking at an E-Z pass type of system with perhaps one cash toll lane located on a local street approach. The first few weeks would be awful, but 99.9% compliance would occur almost immediately thereafter given the time incentive.
CG
The only thing that concerns me is that Brooklyn Heights and Williamsburg could become one big parking lot as people decide not to pay the toll but abandon their car and walk across the Bridges.
Not Brooklyn Heights (it's as pricey as Manhattan). With Williamsburgh, it might be A Good Thing, tearing down all those cruddy buildings and turning them into parking lots.
Or maybe people will give up on Manhattan and start to decide live and/or work in the New York-occupied City of Brooklyn.
First of all, there aren't any spaces to be had in Williamsburgh and Brooklyn Heights either. And if you park illegally it gets very expensive.
Secondly, it's a long walk over any bridge. Besides, the Manhattan end of the WB isn't any place anyone much works; it's residential. It's a huge walk to the office areas.
East River tolls aren't going to produce massive congestion east of the river. They will have some negative economic impact as some people decide not to come into Manhattan. Even more embarassing would be if so many people take mass transit that the trains can't hadnle the load.
Figuring out the net problems and benefits of the tolls is something city planners know how to do. Usually the politics gets in the way of actually doing what's best for the city as a whole.
On the subject of Bridges, where on the Brooklyn Bridge did the BMT El to Park Row run - was it on the roadway or on the pedestrian walkway?
The current left lanes were the tracks. The current "box" that covers the traffic lanes used to only cover the tracks, the two lane roadways were open. If you look at the structure while walking across the bridge, you'll notice that the overhead beams occur for every two squares of the truss. They used to occur for every one when they covered one-third of the width.
Thanx once more for your encyclopaedic knowledge Pig!
Why is it that tabloids like the post and news, et al, can't figure out that "Bloomberg" is the man's name. Not Bloomy, Bloomie, Bloomer or Bloopers: BLOOMBERG! As if typing 2 more letters is going to kill anyone.
Of course, if anyone here ran and became mayor, we'd be treated to great names like "kevie", "selkirky" "glicky" or "odegardie" (as culled from respondants to this thread...).
Oi gevault.
Nah ... they'd just refer to me as "Kirk" ... "Bing bong! Warp 5, Mister Sulu."
I'd be PIGGY!
OINK! OINK!
>>>>Of course, if anyone here ran and became mayor, we'd be treated to great names like "kevie", "selkirky"
"glicky" or "odegardie" (as culled from respondants to this thread...). <<<
In your case, "the-y"
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, I agree, it is irritating. You didn't see them calling Rudy Guilly now did you? Similar to calling Slobodan Milosovich Slobbo (post) or Slobo (news). It irritates the shit out of me.
Peace,
ANDEE
The thing I hate worse than this is the fake word "Hizzoner."
This is why I read the Times
Me too. It's spelled "His Honor." Gosh! How smart do you have to be?
- Lyle Goldman
BTW, did anyone see Podhoretz' Post article in which he argues that while he's noticed the short-term benefits of single-occupancy vehicle ban in Manhattan (less traffic jams, less honking--which I haven't noticed) he argues that fewer cars in Manhattan will over time mean less economic activity, hence an extended recession.
I'd disagree, I'm all for reducing and even banning auto traffic in certain areas, while finding alternative methods of getting goods and services into NYC other than king auto.
Is Podhoretz on the AAA or GM payroll maybe?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I ALSO disagree. Some local TV news outlet (ch5 I think) reported that the city is losing money on the SOV ban because people who live in the concentric wasteland instead choose to go out to bread and circus boxes near their residence pods instead of going to the restaurant or the theater in Manhattan. How many people go to Manhattan for anything other than education or employment between 6 and 10 AM?
What you say is true but there is a "however". I drive into the city (I can hear it now - booooo... hissss...) - but I have a severe knee problem which doesn't let me climb stairs easily. But the disability isnt severe enough to get one of those permits even though i can't take the pain stairs cause. Man do I wish they would bring back the LIC-34th St Ferry!!! For that matter - replace all stairs with escalators and I'll be back on the trains!!!
Anyway - before car pool rules went into effect I was free to drive home using any route I wanted so I stopped and SHOPPED along the way. Many times I stayed in Manhattan after hours, did some shopping then headed home. With the carpool rules you are a virtual prisoner of the person that is giving you the ride or the people you are taking with you. By the time I get home I am too tired and lazy to re-trace my route for shopping. Side effect - my internet shopping has increased astronomically and the money I spend in NYC is practically nil.
Then there are the people who work in the "Parking industry". The garage where I park laid off 4 out of 7 of its employees - volume is down by over 50%. Multiply this by all the parking garages in NYC. The city is paying more unemployment, losing taxes these people would otherwise pay, and also losing the 18% parking tax these vehicles were bringing in.
So I can see where the economy is being hurt.
Here's a for-instance (is that a word?) how it could hurt the city and NYC businesses economically. I live on Long Island. I take public transportation to the city during the daytime partly because of the traffic, partly because I like trains. But in the evening if I decide to go to Katz' for a sandwich or to take my family for a walk in Chinatown or to see the Rockefeller Center tree I'm not going to take the LIRR and a few subways for several hours when I could scoot to the city in my own car for a half hour each way listening to my radio and smoking if I prefer. If there were high tolls or restricted parking I just wouldn't go!! I would find a place to go on LI instead. Multiply my situation by thousands of people on LI, upstate, Jersey, and even the outter boroughs. That would definitely hurt the city economically at a time when the city should be doing the utmost to attract business.
And what about the people who can't use the city because for example:They have physical disabilities They are afraid of the subway (even if its an unjustified or an irrational fear we still lose their business)Trips where its just plain inconvenient (such as L.I. to East End Av) There is very little opposition to Bloomberg's plan on this board because almost everyone on the board is a railfan. But the average person isn't a railfan. I know plenty of people who would never consider going to the city if they couldn't take their cars. Why alienate them.
Also, I don't understand how people who don't drive even care whether there's too much traffic or not.
"Also, I don't understand how people who don't drive even care whether there's too much traffic or not."
Because cars a noxious, noiseome, a congestion in a city that already does not have enough room for its pedestrians.
Close some of the Avenues (Fifth, Bway, and Third) make long green malls out of them. Much can be done, but it takes time and costs money.
So if you drive to the city for an evening with the family... what is so bad about parking in a large park and ride facility and taking the LRV (well yeah,,, there isn't one yet...) to your destination... and then walking around the city.
Sure... some people are handicapped, and they can use a cab, or some variety of handicapped access, but one wonders if we must provide every emenity for everyone who is handicapped. OK so life *isn't* fair, you play the cards you are delt the best you can. If you cannot do one thing, you will need to learn to do another.
Elias
but one wonders if we must provide every emenity for everyone who is handicapped.
That's something that you say regarding the spending of money on retrofitting stations with elevators. But granting permits to handicapped people for access isn't some huge cost to the remainder of society.
Besides, an advanced, civilized society helps those whose circumstances beyond their control place them at a disadvantage. Obviously a person with some disability will never be able to have all the amenities a fully-abled person can have, until of course a cure can be brought up for the ailment in question, but that doesn't mean that they have to suffer when their pain can be lessened through simple contributions from society.
I take public transportation to the city during the daytime partly because of the traffic, partly because I like trains. But in the evening if I decide to go to Katz' for a sandwich or to take my family for a walk in Chinatown or to see the Rockefeller Center tree I'm not going to take the LIRR and a few subways for several hours when I could scoot to the city in my own car for a half hour each way listening to my radio and smoking if I prefer. If there were high tolls or restricted parking I just wouldn't go!!
Good point, but the current SOV restrictions only apply until 10 am on weekdays.
>>>Also, I don't understand how people who don't drive even care whether there's too much traffic or not. <<<
Well...even if you don't drive (I don't) you hate the sheer volume of traffic. Having to walk around the cars & trucks at gridlocked crosswalks. Having to put up with incessant honking by impatient drivers. And, in NYC, it's king car. They have the right of way in every case.
The little matter of Mr. Popandich is also illustrative of my problem with motorists. Of course not all of them are like him. I don't think.
>>>>But in the evening if I decide to go to Katz' for a sandwich or to take my family
for a walk in Chinatown or to see the Rockefeller Center tree I'm not going to take the LIRR and a few
subways for several hours when I could scoot to the city in my own car<<<
And, nobody sane would have a problem with that. I'm mainly concerned that trucks, some of them huge, dominate the streets daily and cause a lot of noise pollution and air pollution. There really ought to be long term plans to alleviate NYC truck traffic. Perhaps getting serious abt a NY-NJ rail freight tunnel is step 1?
www.forgotten-ny.com
But in the evening if I decide to go to Katz' for a sandwich or to take my family for a walk in Chinatown or to see the Rockefeller Center tree I'm not going to take the LIRR and a few subways for several hours when I could scoot to the city in my own car for a half hour each way listening to my radio and smoking if I prefer. If there were high tolls or restricted parking I just wouldn't go!!
I'll bite - where on LI do you live that you can possibly drive into Manhattan, park a car near any of those places and NOT pay high tolls or have restricted parking, all in a half-hour?
The parking restrictions only apply until 10 AM. As I've said, the times that people in the suburbs go to Manhattan are NOT those that have the parking restrictions. Hopefully if tolls apply, they'll end at 5PM or something and not apply on weekends.
Also, I also prefer to take a car on weekends. I don't live anywhere near the subway. I have to take a bus for a half-hour just to take the subway (or park-n-ride on the street). On weekends the bus that serves my area runs no more often than every 1/2 hour (one hour on sundays) and the nearest bus with a reasonable headway is a kilometer away and slow. So why would I put up with all that. Weekends in Manhattan don't have a severe parking or traffic problem.
Last year, I would drive to Manhattan every Friday. Thanks to alternate side parking regulations, it was easier for me to go to Manhattan and park there, then it was to do so at Sheepshead Bay. Even though I had to sit in the car waiting for the spot to legalize, I would still leave the house at the same time since driving was considerably faster.
A good idea would be to install large park-n-ride garages on the Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx or New Jersey sides of the rivers and have people take the subway or a trans-river light rail. This would make getting to Manhattan more convenient for people in the suburbs.
But the disability isnt severe enough to get one of those permits even though i can't take the pain stairs cause.
This is wrong, you should be able to get a permit.
Then there are the people who work in the "Parking industry". The garage where I park laid off 4 out of 7 of its employees - volume is down by over 50%. Multiply this by all the parking garages in NYC. The city is paying more unemployment, losing taxes these people would otherwise pay, and also losing the 18% parking tax these vehicles were bringing in.
That's not a problem. Taxes could be derived from other sources, space currently occupied by garages can be occupied by businesses, stores or apartments (well, not so much if it's underground). Besides, with a bridge toll, that would replace the parking tax.
I'm sure that people would enjoy the city more if the avenues had wider sidewalks and/or were pedestrian malls. People would be more likely to visit the city, more likely to stroll along the streets window shopping (and going inside stores that they never planned to enter otherwise), and to stay in the city longer.
Podhoretz is a fairly hard-line conservative, so I'm not surprised that he's opposed to most forms of regulation.
On the other hand, he could be right and he could be wrong. Some economic activity is prevented, as another post points out. Also, people who come in on the train may have a longer commute than by car, especially if their destination in Manhattan isn't particularly easy to get to from the railroad station (yes, it can happen that way, even with the traffic). This may make them less inclined to linger in NYC and spend money.
Also, sales people and similar who need to go to many destinations in NYC can really suffer if they have to use public transportation.
On the other hand, some economic activity becomes far more efficient because of reduced traffic, so there is a big benefit too.
How does it all net out? We all have our opinions, but you don't actually get the facts until afterwards, and even then people can argue about the measured results.
BTW, did anyone see Podhoretz' Post article in which he argues that while he's noticed the short-term benefits of single-occupancy vehicle ban in Manhattan (less traffic jams, less honking--which I haven't noticed) he argues that fewer cars in Manhattan will over time mean less economic activity, hence an extended recession.
I'd disagree, I'm all for reducing and even banning auto traffic in certain areas, while finding alternative methods of getting goods and services into NYC other than king auto.
Is Podhoretz on the AAA or GM payroll maybe?
I haven't noticed much if any change in traffic volumes either. As for the point of the article, I'd say that Podhoretz makes a good point but may be jumping to conclusions. In other words, if the SOV restrictions are hurting the economy, then by all means lift them immediately. Because the restrictions are a sound idea, they shouldn't be abandoned forever, just lifted for now, when the economy's a bit shaky and the effects of 9/11 still with us, and reinstated at a later date. BUT - I remain unconvinced that the restrictions actually have had any adverse effects on the economy. Unless there's more evidence, then by all means keep the restrictions in effect.
Let's say the tolls are instituted...
The first order of business is that nearly $2 billion that was funded by the USDOT to rehabilitate the City's East River bridges needs to be returned. One provision of the Bridge Rehabilitation Act had been that the bridges had to be free and remain free.
It may well be that the imposition of tolls is a tool for controlling pollution, or traffic congestion. However, there are a lot more effective strategies that do not come with a $2 billion up front price tag.
Great! Not only does he absolutely refuse to lift the single-occupancy ban on the bridges, but now he wants to charge tolls on them too? I don't know why I voted for him . . . oh wait, that's right, I DIDN'T!
- Lyle Goldman
I don't know why I voted for him . . . oh wait, that's right, I DIDN'T!
Tough nuts. In a republic, sometimes you have to be represented by people for whom you didn't vote.
Well, DUH!
In another post, I saw someone make reference to "blessing the cab" in connection with sexual activity.
What does that term mean, exactly?
Well ... I'd tell ya but then I'd have to kill ya since the thread would only get in the barrel and do it hurricane style. Let's just say that it means what ya think it means and leave it there. :)
And if you are thinking that way - wow - do you have a dirty mind.
Alright, I think everyone hear is now getting a little too horny. Let's get back on the train.
the love train?
lol...............
Talk about a bonus on your MetroCard
Heh. It's been done the way I describe. Of course, had we been caught would have been a different story. Made a generally boring job a whole lot nicer. :)
Swami Bendover?
No no no you see ... hmmmm ... how do I put this ... ummm ... several Monicas and a couple of ... ummm ... missions ... ummm ... but I'm sure cabs have been blessed, mitzvah'd and ... ummm ... honored in many varieties ... yeah, that's the ticket ...
Monicas!!!!!!!!! Ah lol......
Isn't it akin to 'spanking the monkey' as it were?
BMTman
That's what I'm pretty sure it means.
Well ... ya strike up a conversation (or be the strikee) and somehow it eventually turns to "can I hold your handle?" :)
Ya know, I was trying to stay serious about this thread but that one really made me "lol"
Sorry, old Selkirk has a nasty habit of never leaving a cheap shot unturned. I never said a WORD about "angle cocks" or "car humping" ... or what the MTA does to its employees ... but yeah, sometimes the riding public actually enjoyes getting ... ummm ... uhhh ...
lol.............
>>> I never said a WORD about "angle cocks" or "car humping" ...<<<
Until now.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oop! :)
You didn't say anything about the butt plug...:-)
Hey! Hey! Watch it! :)
Wasn't that the original title of the Beatles hit song until Ringo made a comment to Paul and John that most people wouldn't understand rapid transit jargon?
;-D
If I'm not mistaken, I think the original song was "I want to crank your handbrake" but it's quite possible it might have been "I want to hold your handle" ... any way you slice it though, this thread's headed for a mass extinction event. :)
More like a Chernobyl meltdown....
Either of those songs sound funny when you have a little drink in you............sorry I just got back from going out.
THAT'S what's wrong with me tonight ... lemme grab a beer ...
Ahhhhhhh ... much better! :)
Hope the beer ain't a Corona -- cuz you know how those are MADE, right? (that subject WOULD be on topic -- ha!)
BMTman
Nah, up here we get Pilsen Urquell, Kroenenbourg, Hofbrau, Moosehead, Fosters (the real Aussie swill) and other really yummy suds. Not like down there where it's Coors or Buttweiser. Long haul train operators demand a GOOD buzz. (and the locomotives are equipped with a whizatorium since many crews gone dead on hours like to relax with a cold one waiting on a siding to go home) ... heh.
And isn't the Corona cerveza frio thread long enough on the other place? :)
Nah, up here we get Pilsen Urquell, Kroenenbourg, Hofbrau, Moosehead, Fosters
Nothing beats a pint of Burton. And I mean the full 20 oz pint at that!
What? No Watney's Red Barrel? Heh. I'm rather fond of Bass and that's easy to find. Haven't done Burton's though. One of the nice things about living in upstate New York is there's no beer police, so you can homebrew all you want ... to keep it on topic sorta, we have the minikeg cars of "Coors concentrate" rolling through here every so often on the freights. Good thing there's REAL beer and ales! :)
Woody Woodpecker HARDENED Cider is so much better than skunky beer. Should be a TA commidity. CI Peter
Warm beer is my only regret of being Anglican. I wonder what the Pope drinks? CI Peter
[Kroenenbourg]
....that sounds familiar??? Could that be a local Brooklyn brew? ;-D
Heh. It's actually from Alsace-Lorraine, a spot on the planet you wouldn't expect beer to come from, much less GOOD beer. But yeah, I know what you're thinking and I doubt there's any connection. It didn't glow in the dark. :)
But it's the kind of beer that I wouldn't mind converting the underside of 1689 to compress and serve up on tap in the cab. There! Brought this back on topic ... sorta ... a true "foamers" combo though, an R9 feeding CO2 to the main tank, filled with beer. Drop your handle in the stand and turn for a rich foamy brewski. Betcha it'd do wonders for attendance at Branford. Heh.
>>> It's actually from Alsace-Lorraine, a spot on the planet you wouldn't expect beer to come
from, <<<
Why not? They grow great hops there and have the German beer making tradition. When I was in living in Europe and was in France, I met a girl from the area who was born in Germany while her parents were born in France and her grandparents were born in Germany, and they had all lived their whole lives in the same town.
Tom
Ah, but Tom ... YOU have a clue and don't have to purchase one. Heh. Alsace is considered by many to be "wine growing country" and when we serve up Kronies in our company bar to folks that come to visit, they're ASTOUNDED by how good it is. It's taken by many in a similar fashion to the Brits making Champagne and the French making stout. I have to convince them that it's really OK stuff and after they've tried some, it's gone. :)
That's nothing. My mother was born and my father lived much of his life in the USSR, my grandparents (paternal) were born in Poland and their parents were born in Austria-Hungary, they all came from the same city, which if I were to go and visit today, would require that I go to the Ukraine.
Yeah, next time you get some 'time off' from the job swing by Branford and we'll christen the R-9 for you with some of that brew...I guess smack a bottle against the door controller?
BMTman
The "bottles" should already be full ... nah, I'm talking a GOH ... you tap a keg, run it through the bypass valve, mount a spigot on the side of the brake stand and pull 40 pounds when you want some beer. We can mount the keg undercar and run some half inch tubing up into the cab. Then we see how many round trips it takes before we overshoot and put her on the ground. :)
That'll end up being an RWI -- Railfanning While Intoxicated. Can't have a 'Smokey' pullin' you over while you're hauling ass on the Far Rock Line in an R-9. Put that hammer down buddy and floor it! (Doing a 'Jake n' Elwood' move with R/T equipment could be VERY interesting!)...;-D
BMTman
I've got a half a pack of cigarettes and I'm wearing sunglasses. Given that 1689 ain't been neutered though, TRY and catch me. :)
With a little bit of rail bending, I'll bet I can do the Chicago River bridge leap too - right off the end at Far Rock and onto LIRR trackage where we can see if the motors will birdcage by Speonk. Heh.
You're a sick puppy! ;-D
LOL!
What can I say? When I did my thing, that's how you operated. If you couldn't lay down a trail of blue smoke, ya might have just as well banged in sick. Trains were meant to RUN. Whole secret was to run like Luciano and stop on a dime. Now if that dime happened to be in an LIRR conductor's pocket, no problem. Then again, my peers at the time kept calling me "wimpy" ... I'd worry if one of THOSE guys got the handles. :)
Oh, for the good old days when if you encountered a red, you took it out with a baseball bat as you passed it and called it in "dark." :)
Seriously, what's wrong with Corona?
Wizz
That explains why you need to add a lime to it to cover the taste.
Warm colors abound.
The classic line about travelling to Mexico has always been "just don't drink the water". Beer is made from water. Mexican beer is made with SURPRISE! Mexican water. Draw your own conclusions.
>>> The classic line about travelling to Mexico has always been "just don't drink the water". Beer is made from water. <<<
Of course "don't drink the water" refers to untreated water, not bottled water, or water used in many products from soft drinks to beer.
Tom
May Lord Gandalph leave you a heafty heap of blessings upon your doorstoop thankyouverrrrymuch.
Isn't that when the TA gets a priest to come down to a subway station and sprinkly holy water on a new train?????
;-)
No, obviously not. That would have the effect of melting the new train and sending it back to where it came in a puff of smoke.
:)
-Robert King
Now now, that's only necessary when the train starts making gutteral noises and starts twirling in the station. :)
I rode on a pre-GOH R40M that was oozing (what looked like) pea soup from between the railfan window and the cab. You don't suppose... ? Nah...
Nah. Foamer ... :)
I think the TA cops can give him a $60 fine for that.
I can't remember the last time I laughed so hard over a subtalk thread!!!!!! Come on, you're killing me.
Laughing is OK ... however DANCING is prohibited on subtalk ... no flashes, please ...
no flashes, please ...
Well, there goes my primary source of entertainment. Now I'll need to go to a "Gentlemen's Club" for a good flash.
Heh. I was referring to the motors actually, but that's OK too. :)
I don't like cabs. The drivers don't speak English, they stink, and drive like maniacs. The cabs are too cramped and smell like shit, and are held together with chewing gum. And they are piss colored.
And they're expensive to use.
And quite frankly, I'm getting sick and tired of having to carefully plan every goddamn word I say because more and more words and expressions are starting to acquire sexual connotations. One can no longer use the words "blow, suck, screw, beat, bang, slap, spank, smack, pump, thrust, cock, beaver, meat, et cetera et cetera ad infinitum without some sick son of a bitch snickering and making some wise ass crack.
So how do you bless a cab?
By taking it off the street and melting it.
UMMM....cut down on the coffee. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Nah, too much salt. :)
You're a big boy, go figure it out...
I dont understand why all you are not answering the gentleman directly
Blessing the Cab Simply means engagin in sexual activity in the operating cabs of railroad equipment.
There, its much less fun that way.
Dang! You went and spoiled the fun....:-(
So the next question would be, are these people passengers who
were on the train? Or was this all pre-arranged meetings?
Men with men. or men & women?
And they used to announce, We have red signals against us!
Ha!
Because it's just SO much more fun to beat around the bush. Whoop.
Al right, now I know we are in trouble........
Because it's just SO much more fun to beat around the bush.
You must be thinking of CLINTON.
Ummmm ... no? I've got better things to do with my time? Like hang out on subtalk? :)
If it means what I think it means, then I already witnessed it. Wasn't nothing really serious, but it was intimate enough so as that I had to get out of the lead car of the displaced R-33 consist on the #6 line a few years ago while we were waiting a #6 ahead of us at Parkchester to go into relay.
Oh, and um, I'd really wish not to witness it again.
It's just the "Mile high club" a few feet underground. (or a few feet OVER). As was said in the film "Risky business," "I'd like to do it on a REAL train." Unfortunately in the movie, it was a single Chicago subway car and not a train ... :)
Was that Eileen Dover with Oliver Clothesoff?:-)
Sex in the cab can be really intense. A guy I know, after 20 years of marriage, finally got his wife to scream so loud that we all heard it. Yup, when the act was done, he actually got on the phone and called his wife to tell her about it. :-)
Hahahahaha! You're NOT supposed to hold down the PTT while yer doing it! :)
Wait a minute... English speaking CIs can count. The guy had his wife reach the peak of climax so well that he called his wife to tell her about it. Are we talking 207th Boolean Algebra or Mormon poligimay...the guy is married twice. I'm missing something in my middle aged bliss...where be de wimmen car inspectors??? CI Peter
Hope ya can count grids better than women. Man was married 20 years. had sex with another woman and called and told his wife. Hmmmmm on second thought - forget it.
Wanna explain boolean algebra to me?
Sounds as though you had to be there.
I've noticed that there are water (i assume) jets spraying some of the sharper turns on the lex express tracks. Can anyone tell me why?
Those are to lubricate the tracks and train wheels to reduce (If not eliminate) the squealing when the train wheels go on the curve.
It has been found that water works better than the grease they stilluse in spots (and is not flammable).
I would assume that they use that at Union Square on the Lex now. I remember when I used to use that station every day in the early 90's, the sound in that station would almost make you deaf! I don't think they did that cack then, and if they did it didn't work well.
I always loved that station though, it has a lot of character, even before they redid it and all the tiles were falling of the wall, and there never seems to be a time when there is not at least one train in that station (at least during the day)
As I understand it, the water jets provide lubrication to reduce wheel flange squeal. As a side effect, it also helps keep any steel dust created (from the grinding of the wheel flanges on the rails) from becoming airborne. This grinding effect would create an awful lot more steel dust than regular steel wheels going over straight track.
Places that have water jets that I can think off the top of my head are South Ferry, 42nd St- Grand Central, and City Hall loop. There are probably many more out there.
Add north of Fulton Street to the list.
Water jets do provide lubrication. They also add to corrosion.
Thanks. That's kinda what I thought...or to reduce some kind of fire hazzard.
Did anyone ever think of us poor Car Inspectors that get greasy/dirty making wheel gauge measurements off the oily flange? CI Peter
How could you tell? Heh. Hey, think of it this way - now you get holy water. :)
Why transfer R-62s to the 7 and put the new 142s on the 7th ave or 6 line? Why not just put the new 142s on the 7 line?
Wouldn't that save the effort of re-tooling/re-training TWO shops?
Firstly, the Corona Yard isn't really ready for the R-142 trains and to make it ready, it must be revised. Besides, the R-62s would still make the (7) unique from their other IRT couterparts in the future, once the 1 and 3 start having R-142s. Anyways, does the (4) or (5) ever operate R-142s?
I just thought that if you have to revise the (6) yard to take 142s and revise the corona yard to take 62s, that's TWO revisions.
If you leave the (6) yard handling 62s and simply revise the corona yard to take 142s, that is only ONE yard revision.
Seemed simpler.
Eventually, all the yards are going to have to be upgraded to handle more technologically advanced rolling stock.
Simply to put it instead of having the Corona yard go through an expensive upgrading for a new redone facility like the 180 st. yard, the R-62 option gives them time before any of that. The R-142's belong on the mainline anyway. The 2,5, and 6 need them. The 7 line gets too many good things all the time, let the main lines get some goodies too.
It's also going to be a pain to get the cars out of the system if the need should ever arise.
Well they've already put 380 or so R142A's on the 6. You'd have to go and move them again. And you'd have to retool Corona Barn immediately, because it's an old barn. Putting R62A's on the 7 buys the TA some time to upgrade Corona Barn, which may not happen for a while anyway.
The R62A is going to the #7, not the R62. -Nick
<>
Not if you believe the shop superintendent from Jerome Shop.....
Seriously? If R62s are going on the #7 in addition to the R62As, then this is new information to me. -Nick
If they do that, it'll mean 10-car trains on the 7. Is it true that R-62s and R-62As cannot be intermixed in the same consist?
I believe the whole idea is crazy ..
How much longer will the R-32 and R-38's stay on the "A" and "C" Trains?
R-38s are scheduled to be replaced by the R-160 contract, while the R32s won't be retired for quite awhile yet. Notice how the TA even replaced some floors with new black (with blue and white speckles), just like on many #4 trains? -Nick
The questions you ask seem to indicate you're a newbie. ALmost everything you ask can be answered by reading this website's FAQ.
And the answer is: who knows? The R38 will be the first of the current 60' cars to go, but not until long after the R160's have been in service. The R32 will last considerably longer. The FAQ will tell you why.
Does the Acela Express run in the rain? Becuase it has Electric current going through overhead wires.
Huh?
Listen to my commercial on WCBS.
"It's WEATHERPROOF."
Well, what if a Hugh Jass blizzard buried the tracks faster than a plow car could clear them?
Then the entire NE Corridor would be a Federal Disaster Area with over 23 feet of snow covering everything.
Metro-North New Haven Line trains and Jersey Transit trains (and their predecessor operators) have been using overhead electrical power in the rain for at least the past 50 years, probably considerably longer.
Established 1908! And some of that wire is still up around Stamford.
Does the Acela Express run in the rain?
Of course it does.
Becuase it has Electric current going through overhead wires.
I don't have an explanation for this, but there is no harm in the catenary wires when it rains. You can hear it "buzzing" when there is fog or when there is a drizzle.
Subways run their trains at elevated points even if there is rain, and electric current still goes through the 3rd rail.
Rainy air is still 99.9% air, and so is not a conductor of eletricity.
If a raindrop picked up enough ionizable pollutants to enable it to be a good electrical conductor and it were long enough to touch the catenary and the ground simultaneously, ...
A few months ago someone asked on another list if you could be killed by standing beneath a live streetcar wire on a rainy day, especially if you had a foot on a rail at the same time...
-Robert King
Yes it runs in the rain. A tiny film of electricity isn't going to stop 12,000 volts AC.
Yes, it will run. Yes, there is electricity in the overhead wires but it isn't a problem because the wires are insulated by multiple specially designed porcelain insulators on the supporting wires and the substantial air gap between the charged parts and everything else.
A person on another list was wondering a while ago if one could be electrocuted by standing beneath a live streetcar wire in the rain so I imagine the same could be asked here, too. The answer is no because rain is really intermittand drops of water falling, surrounded by air so it won't conduct electricity and water isn't a good conductor of electricity to begin with.
-Robert King
Go out side. Find a standard utility pole. Look at those cerimac thinggies between the wires and the pole. Notice how they have funny shapes, sort of like a musheroom w/ ridges. This shape is to prevent water/ice from forming a path from the "hot" powerlines to ground. Electric trains have these sort of things between their pantograph and the carbody to electrically isolate that as well. This is why electrified rail lines work in the rain.
A coyote rests on a seat after jumping onto a MAX light-rail train Wednesday, Feb. 13, 2002, at Portland International Airport in Portland, Ore. The coyote was lassoed by a wildlife official before the train left the station. The animal was released far away on port property and "ran away and bounded after some field mice," Port of Portland spokeswoman Elisa Dozono said. (AP Photo/Port of Portland, Dennis Maxwell)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020215/168/141dn.html
Gee, if it was here in NYC no one would have noticed.
The poor thing probably would have been sat on :( or kicked off the train into a bad neighborhood.
The undercover transit squad would have issued it a summons for fare evasion and sleeping on a bench.
Most people would have mistaken it for an every day subway rat.
Well, the coyote would probably tell everybody to find their soul mate.
That is, if Springfield still had a monorail for the coyote to ride.
Mark
The Coyote could ride the 22A.
We have coyotes in the parks. They are scrawney skinny dogs, afraid of people and movement. Feed from the garbage (better food than in the 'wild.') Got em in Warren County NJ too. 12 gauge makes em docile. CI Peter
What do you mean by 12 gauge. I'm not familiar with that lingo.
A 12 gauge is a type of shorgun.
Peace,
ANDEE
12 Gauge: Term used in identifying basic shotgun used for hunting, personal protection and law enforcement. Barrel is basically a tube, fires a cartridge containing lead pellets or one large lead slug (bullet.) Requires minimal training. Sighting on target is simply pointing barrel. Ideal for dispatching wild animals, especially those which may be rabid. When an area receives a 'Rabies Alert,' one can't be too careful in dealing with animals exhibiting unusual behavior and whose habits exhibits travel over large areas.
MEEP...MEEP !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Were Portland's LRV's built by Acme by any chance?
Mark
I wonder if Sheriff Ping, Ping,
PING
Ricochet Rabbit was anywhere around.
Well, keep in mind that MAX does go to the Zoo. Maybe that's where he was heading after a long flight from somewhere?
Seriously, the Portland area (and the Northwest in general) has a significant coyote problem - one of the results of overdevelopment.
I hope he had a farecard. There aren't too many bad neighborhoods in Portland to get thrown off at but those fare inspectors can be rough.
The R-32 cars are expected to live 50 years before they get scrapped, or in this case recycled since their bodies are made of steel. Can the R-62 be expected to live that long or even longer? Their Miles before breakdown is the best with above 150,000 miles especially on the 4 line. They are good models, can they be the R-32 of the IRT and possibly live past 50?
We'll see what happens, Chris. Certainly anything is apossibility. As you said, these are good fleets. The actual stainless steel carbody should last, it will pribbaly depend on how the parts do (like the truck), and how much the MTA wants to spend on replacing parts before scrapping. -Nick
All cars from the R46 up should last 50 years, if maintained well. I'd expect to see R62's still running in 2035.
Chris,
You really think the R-46 will last 50 years? I do like these cars, but with all the problems they had with them in the past, and the rumors that the R-44s won't last much longer, I'm not so sure about that. -Nick
I think the R-44 and 46's will retire within the next 5-10 years.to me they dont seem to good,and i think the R-32's,40's,42's and even the R-143's will do well in replacing them
You don't know much about this subject.
The R46 is a very reliable car, and only 25 years old. The R44 will outlast the older R42, R40 and R38 classes. Nothing will be retired for the forseeble future anyway.
The R46 is made completely of stainless steel, and have been very reliable since they returned from the GOH 10 years ago. The R44 is a completely different story.
Carbodies were of stainless and maybe anticlimbers too. It's what is in the heart that counts...my #5 Redbirds are goers. CI Peter
Chris,
Maybe I should know this already, but could you fill me in why the R44 is likely to be retired earlier, or direct me to the appropriate section in the FAQ? -Nick
The R44 is likely to be retired earlier due to the fact that its "belly band" is composed of carbon, not stainless, steel.
Peace,
ANDEE
why cant they put stainless steel on the sideband?
I'm sure that they could try that, but its cost effectiveness would have to be weighed.
#3 West End Jeff
The R44 has been a mechanical headache since it was purchased. It also has some carbon steel in it's body which is vulnerable to rusting. The R44 story is similar to the R16 story, a car which might be retired simply because it's mechancal troubles make it too unreliable and expensive to maintain.
Remember, the R44 was very advanced from previous subway cars purchased before 1971. The new technology had a lot of teething probems which were later rectified in the R46 cars. Thankfully, the TA learned it's lesson, and it's next radically advanced technology cars (The R110 A & B) were only ordered as prototypes.
From the readings of other posts, a portion of the R-44s body was made from carbon steel, not stainless steel and they won't last as long as the R-46s. However, could they replace the carbon steel portion of the R-44s with stainless steel at a reasonable cost to extend the service life of the cars.
#3 West End Jeff
But the R44 may not be worth overhauling, given their problems and small number (only @ 250).
I am aware of the relatively small fleet size of the R-44s. However, if they need cars and they don't want to spend the money on new ones, would it still be worthwhile to repair the R-44 fleet if the problems aren't to expensive to fix.
#3 West End Jeff
That's the $64,000 question. At what point does a car become too expensive to maintain, even if money for new cars is tight?
That can be a difficult question to answer. I would have to surmise that they have to weigh the cost of repairing a set or fleet of subway cars with the uncertainty of their long term reliability against the cost of replacing them with new cars which should be reliable once the bugs are worked out and with bodies that have no structural problems becuase they're new.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm aware that the R-68s have had their problems. Could an upgrading improve their performance and reliability so that these cars could last 40 to 50 years before they're scrapped.
#3 West End Jeff
The R68's are currently the most reliable B division car on the road.
That is an improvement considering that the R-68s had more than their share of problems to begin with.
#3 West End Jeff
I think the R-62's could live that long, perhaps even longer with proper care.
The R-32's were abused, much like all equipment at that time, in the early part of their lives. It's really a great design.
Opinion questions deserve opinion answers. Here's mine: They don't make 'em like they used to. I don't believe that anything made in the eighties will prove to be as (or more) durable than things made in the sixties. That goes double for electric traction. Of course, time will tell. But I bet the R-62s top out at about 35 years old.
I bet if the TA had let Budd build the R38's, R40's, R42's and R44's, they'd be in just as good condition and would last as long as the R32's are going to. The R32's were and still are great subway cars - except for that little unreadble flipdot route sign in the front bulkhead that they got in GOH.
I'm not so sure if it was Budd vs. St Louis building the cars.
I think the R38 - R42 models had design flaws - especially the fiberglass bonnets on the front ends of those cars that are now springing leaks.
The R44's were just about lemons until overhauled and they figured out how to keep them running.
Hey, even the R32's were developing cracks, and there was a question of overhauling them or getting rid of them.............
FWIW, I'd call that a safe bet.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anybody know when the LIRR will be putting the new M7's to the test? And can somebody tell me the specifications of the M7.
The M-7 is built by Bombardier, Quebec, Canada. Put Bombardier into a Yahoo search and go to their website. Select the rail transit section or icon, and you'll see it.
Try this link LIRR M7
Elias
A LIRR employe friend of mine tells me that the set of M-7's that were sent to Pueblo, Colorado seems to have some "nosing" problems.
No it has nothing to do with Jimmy Durante or Jamie Farr, it's a problem where the car body sways too much from side to side, or lateral side sway. Maybe some modifications to the suspension or truck is in order. But don't forget, the M-7 is a new untried design that has to have the bugs worked out before the fleet can be built. Much like the R-142/142A's.
The first set for testing is due possibly by summer, but that all hinges on how quickly the bugs are worked out and they can enter revenue passenger service.
Bill "Newkirk"
A LIRR employe friend of mine tells me that the set of M-7's that were sent to Pueblo, Colorado seems to have some "nosing" problems.
Geez, can Bombbardier build an FRA compliant railcar that doesn't have stability problems?
Of course, being obnoxiously overweight doesn't help.
The swaying probably means the cars are a tee bit too light in the weight department. When the LIRR first ran a train of bilevels back in the late 80's - early 90's the train had the same problem....weight and unsafe swaying, so much so that one day at Westbury (if I remember right it was Westbury) on a day with high winds, the wind blew the train right off the track. I think the swaying is either a weight issue, or the yaw dampers need to be checked out.
If you ever took a course in 'Analytic Problem Solving' you'd know that the biggest mistake one can make in approaching a problem is to assume that because 'IT' was of the problem on 'A', 'IT' will be the on 'B'. Save time - save money and approach every problem as a new one.
Well if one had common sense, and memory, one would remember this problem existed with the first bilevels years back, and remember this is what the primary cause as to why the cars would be blown off the track by a wind that was no higher than 45 mph (the winds on that day were 35 - 45 mph.....hardly strong enough to blow a train off the track unless the train had a weight issue, which the bilevels DID!!)
"Well if one had common sense,"
First of all, common sense has little to do with the design of a rail car. Secondly, I didn't say it was not a problem of weight. I simply said that you don't jump to that conclusion based on the experiences of a car class that bears no relavence to the one in question. Third, what are your qualifications in the area of railcar design?
The swaying probably means the cars are a tee bit too light in the weight department.
At 125,000 lbs, roughly 30,000 lbs heavier than the existing M-1s, I'd say that's a bit on the wrong side. If anything, excessive weight causes instability (see Acela), not greater stability.
IMHO, the M-7s should have weighed less than the M-1s, if anything. I'm not sure why after 30 years of advances in materials, design, etc, Bombardier can't turn out a railcar that isn't a lead brick.
If anything, excessive weight causes instability (see Acela), not greater stability.
Poor design causes instability, not weight. Light weight is one element of poor design. Note that in the UK when a passenger train (using light weight stock of course) rammed into a Land Rover that had fallen onto the tracks, its lack of mass caused it to begin to sway back and forth...right off the tracks. After derailing it swerved into the path of an oncomming freight train resulting in a large all around crunch.
Poor design causes instability, not weight. Light weight is one element of poor design
I really shouldn't respond to your brain dead posts, but, go take a a few classes in structures and materials and dynamics before making any more stupid statements.
BTW - don't ever ride on a Silverliner again. Without their traction equipmrnt, the carbodies are lighter than the ICE train's are.
Watch it Philip. Mike will call you "a jerk who never posts any facts." He might even send you a private E-mail to make sure you get the message.
Oh no!!!!!!!!!
BTW, the ICE cars are about 100,000 lbs (on average), the Silverliners run from 115,000 to 125,000lbs. The traction motors (4) are roughly 1500lbs a pop (at least), then figure the tranny at between 5,000 and 10,000lbs, then the control groups (another ton or so), MA sets (another 1,000lbs), compressor (? 500 - 1000lbs?).
In fact, the ICE trains are considerably heavier than most HSR sets, that's why they're not articulated like the TGV is. The stability penalty that the weight and non articulation causes means that the intercar connections are so complicated, the cars can only be sepperated in a shop (like the Acelas).
The simple fact is, the articulated design of the TGV is a proven safe one. It's crash surviveability has been proven to be by far the best of any high speed rail set. There is no other design that has ever safely withstood 180+mph derailments with zero passenger fatalities.
I've long since held the opinion that the Acela design is not a good one (or even desireable). Unfortunently, the real answer may not come from an FRA crash test. IMHO, the Tier II regulations are baseless, untested, and could in fact prove to be dangerous to passengers in the event of an accident.
It's long been demonstrated that weight in a railcar has no safety advantages.
The MP-54s, despite being considerably heavier than the M-1s (by 20,000 lbs), were known for dismally poor crash performance.
The Highliners were of equal weight to the IC MUs they replaced, yet performed poorly in the accident of '72 (in fact, they might have even been slightly heavier).
Amtrak's obnoxiously heavy and oversized Superliner and Surfliner equipment has time and time again proven to perform dismally in even minor derailments and accidents.
The MP-54s, despite being considerably heavier than the M-1s (by 20,000 lbs), were known for dismally poor crash performance.
The MP-54's did not have an uniform bodyshell and could tend to disintegrate in certain types of crashes. They were also built c. 1909 (just like the Manny B), well b4 the pinicle of mechanical engineering. If you peel away the sheetmetal of a vintage passenger coach you will find that they are composed of little more than angle irons bolted to the frame.
The Highliners were of equal weight to the IC MUs they replaced, yet performed poorly in the accident of '72 (in fact, they might have even been slightly heavier).
The Highliners impacted with a 30's vintage MU set. The ultra heavy/robust frame (possibly containing concrete) sort of sliced through the hi-liners (there was a discussion about this on Subtalk many months ago). The highliners were heavier, but they were less dense (bi-levels vs a mono-level) and that 30's frame cut through them like butter (wasn't it sort of a side glancing shot?).
Examples and counter examples aside a 2002 SUV will make butter out of a 2002 Econobox. In the US, we have rail impact accidents (includes grade crossing accidents) all the time and rarely are people killed. The last Amtrak deaths were in 1997 and that was due to FIRE not impact. When those Superliners you constantly malign hit that 25 ton steel coil truck in Illinios they did their job and protected the passengers from the forces of impact, tipping over and sliding about. In Eurpoe the cars crumple like cans (well they are made out of Aluminium after all). You can check out http://danger-ahead.railfan.net/ for some good information regarding European rail accidents. You can have the most intelligently designed car out there, but if you make it out of cardboad it ain't going to stand up well in an accident (or wind for that matter).
Rail travel needs to be extra safe in order to compete with auto and air travel. Also don't forget that we are Americans. We don't take the easy way out. We can have out bi-level mega luxury liners that can derail, roll off a bridge and have everyone walk away...PLUS, we can have them go at 180 mph. Its just a question of power. We Americans have our cake, eat it, steal a piece from the guy next to us and eat that too. Why settle for anything less. You're always bitching about how "we can't do that". Why don't you take all your engineering experiance and find a way to have big, roomy, smooth, nearly indestructable equipment move at super high speeds. Sort of build a train in the spirit of your kick ass motorcycle.
BTW when are you going to visit down here again? We can watch my Mad Max Special Edition DVD.
The MP-54's did not have an uniform bodyshell and could tend to disintegrate in certain types of crashes.
Certain types? Pretty much all types. The MP-54's less than steller crash performance was demonstrated as early as the 20's. Even low speed (30mph) crashes would tend to disintegrate the end of a car.
The Highliners impacted with a 30's vintage MU set. The ultra heavy/robust frame (possibly containing concrete) sort of sliced through the hi-liners (there was a discussion about this on Subtalk many months ago). The highliners were heavier, but they were less dense (bi-levels vs a mono-level) and that 30's frame cut through them like butter (wasn't it sort of a side glancing shot?).
It still shoots down your claim that high weight equals safety. It's well known in the auto industry that a lightweight, but strong enclosure around the passenger compartment, and a controlled crushing of the rest of the car is by far the safest design out there. Go read a few books on dynamics (noteably kinetics), some day. And some stuff on materials and statics.
Examples and counter examples aside a 2002 SUV will make butter out of a 2002 Econobox. In the US, we have rail impact accidents (includes grade crossing accidents) all the time and rarely are people killed.
Ironically, the GE Genisis, which provides such great grade crossing performance, is a lightweight, monobody, European design.
The last Amtrak deaths were in 1997 and that was due to FIRE not impact. When those Superliners you constantly malign hit that 25 ton steel coil truck in Illinios they did their job and protected the passengers from the forces of impact, tipping over and sliding about.
Yet, passengers died anyway, because the railcars all catapulted and caught on fire. In addition, since the cars were not upright, and cars piled on each other, there was less chance of escape. That's a bad design.
In Eurpoe the cars crumple like cans (well they are made out of Aluminium after all). You can check out http://danger-ahead.railfan.net/ for some good information regarding European rail accidents. You can have the most intelligently designed car out there, but if you make it out of cardboad it ain't going to stand up well in an accident (or wind for that matter).
The TGV has hit 20+ ton objects at grade crossings, with minimal injuries and no passenger deaths. It's safety has been demonstrated again and again.
Rail travel needs to be extra safe in order to compete with auto and air travel. Also don't forget that we are Americans. We don't take the easy way out. We can have out bi-level mega luxury liners that can derail, roll off a bridge and have everyone walk away...PLUS, we can have them go at 180 mph. Its just a question of power. We Americans have our cake, eat it, steal a piece from the guy next to us and eat that too.
But we can't vilolate the laws of physics. And no matter how hard we try, we just can't. And the facts is, heavy rail equipment performs poorly at high speeds. the Acelas' truck problems have not been solved, and probbably never will be. because there is no solution to them, except to reduce the weight of the railcar, drastically.
It's long been known that high weight drives the critical speed of a truck down. This is simple physics and vibrations. Heavy objects vibrate at lower speeds. Remember, any excitation, regardless of direction, if at the resonant frequency of an object will drive that object into reasonance! In addition, objects with higher resonant frequencies require more energy to be excited into reasonance.
Why don't you take all your engineering experiance and find a way to have big, roomy, smooth, nearly indestructable equipment move at super high speeds.
Easy. Carbon fiber / aluminum (stressed skin) , on aluminum (or titanium) trucks. Air bag suspension, maybe active dampers (though stability would be achived without them), lightweight seating, blown styrofoam liners in the walls and floor for insulation, ceramic brakes, underfloor transformers, body mounted, water cooled traction motors, active pantographs, IGBT inverters, fully articulated.
Just use modern materials and designs and you can build a railcar that's damm light and damm strong. Size of the railcar isn't an issue - the TGV runs double deckers. It's weight and axle load. 30 years of expetience has said the articulated design is the safest, 2 axle trucks are the most stable, and sub 17 ton axle loads are required. it's interesting to note, but on axle loading alone, the LIRR's MUs are much more suited for high speed running than the Aclea, but they ride on lousey truck technology.
Sort of build a train in the spirit of your kick ass motorcycle.
Am I detecting sarcasm, there? My bike's a great low to medium speed lugger, but it'll never keep up with your average crotchrocket. Too heavy :) But it's very good at what it doesdo. But it's not the fastest thing on two wheels out there.
It's kinda the NJ Arrow of motorcycles. Medium weight, fairly high acceleration to a moderate top speed, and noisy as hell....
I can annoy the hell, out of any Japanese 600 and most older 750's (I smoked a Ducati in a stoplight gran prix once), but only up to 100 or so. The trick is to get good launch on them and stay ahead for a while. Most Japanese sportbikes are slow off the line unless you dump the clutch. They just don't have any power below 5 or 6 grand (look at a dyno chart on them some day), especially the smaller ones.
BTW when are you going to visit down here again? We can watch my Mad Max Special Edition DVD.
Probbably not for a loooonnnggg time. I'm moving back to NY...
The TGV only suffered a minor derailment at 180, it did not impact with another massive object at speed like the ICE Train did. Let's see the TGV hit a truck at a grade crossing at 180 and survive. After that I'll be convinced.
How about hitting a 20 ton truck at 80mph and zero passenger fatalities? Even the Acela wouldn't withstand an ICE-type accident.
It still shoots down your claim that high weight equals safety.
Its a weight and density issue. A 6 ounce knife will cut through a 1 pound stick of butter, but not a one pound hunk of iron. Take whatever wonder design rail vehicle you want and then just double the guage of the metal and add extra internal re-enforcement. The new design will be more robust than the old design.
It's well known in the auto industry that a lightweight, but strong enclosure around the passenger compartment, and a controlled crushing of the rest of the car is by far the safest design out there. Go read a few books on dynamics (noteably kinetics), some day. And some stuff on materials and statics.
The safest design is to impart all the deformation to the OTHER vehicle. You might have enough money to buy new cars all the time, but most people don't. Rail vehicles especially should not be one smash and off the to scrapper. Remember that GG1 that ploughed into Union Station? That ran for another 30 years.
Ironically, the GE Genisis, which provides such great grade crossing performance, is a lightweight, monobody, European design.
Are you claiming that the Genisis units are light weight? They are lumbering behemouths that have the density to crunch through just about anything that gets in their way.
Yet, passengers died anyway, because the railcars all catapulted and caught on fire. In addition, since the cars were not upright, and cars piled on each other, there was less chance of escape. That's a bad design.
Cars sliding around is an alternative to the deformation option of reducing impact forces. The differance is that elastic cars can be repaired and used again.
Just use modern materials and designs and you can build a railcar that's damm light and damm strong.
Now, what if you used modern materials in an amount to equal the weight/density of the old materials? Would not that create a rail vehicle that was even safer?
It's weight and axle load. 30 years of expetience has said the articulated design is the safest
They are also more expensive to deal with as you can't add or delete cars from a trainset. Economics and flexibility are important here to you know. Incidently, I have ridden in those French excuses for a train and they way cramped. If I am going to get squashed into a small seat I might as well save some money and fly.
Am I detecting sarcasm, there? My bike's a great low to medium speed lugger, but it'll never keep up with your average crotchrocket. Too heavy :) But it's very good at what it doesdo. But it's not the fastest thing on two wheels out there.
I could stick a JATO bottle on a saketboard, call it a motorcycle and be the fastest thing on the road. The point is that absolute speed is not the only factor. Comfort, safety and just general appearance are just as important. Nevertheless there are always ways to get that top speed as well. What if you replaced your engine with a gas turbine of some sort?
BTW why are you moving back to NY? What is wrong with connecticut? Will you be available for a future LIAR field trip?
"general appearance are just as important." The 32s have looked like a cheap garden shed since 1987, but they are one of our best units
"Also don't forget that we are Americans. We don't take the easy way out." (We take the not only the easy way out, but also the CHEAP way out)
BMT REDBIRD:)
The simple fact is, the articulated design of the TGV is a proven safe one. It's crash surviveability has been proven to be by far the best of any high speed rail set. There is no other design that has ever safely withstood 180+mph derailments with zero passenger fatalities.
The TGV only suffered a minor derailment at 180, it did not impact with another massive object at speed like the ICE Train did. Let's see the TGV hit a truck at a grade crossing at 180 and survive. After that I'll be convinced.
< The MP-54s, despite being considerably heavier than the M-1s (by 20,000 lbs), were known for dismally poor crash performance. >
You got that wrong too. The clerestory roofed cars of 1908-1917 had 5" collision posts and had poor collision performance. The arch roof cars and the 1930 MP54A1 had 12" collision posts and proved themselves in the Kew Gardens and RVC crashes. One also came out pretty well with a low speed crash with an M1 in 1970.
"But don't forget, the M-7 is a new untried design that has to have the bugs worked out before the fleet can be built. Much like the R-142/142A's."
-that's just a scary thought right there. Let's not forget how well the new design of the DE/DM locomotives faired out (i.e. - a big pathetic failure). At least Bomb has a staff that's built lots of cars before, unlike Super Steel, so their's a better chance the M7's won't be a total failure... but - if they're looking to replae the M1's, why not just take the old M1 design, rehash it a bit to work out whatever bugs or announces the M1's had, and go that route - instead of (and possibly failing to...) reinventing the wheel.
>>if they're looking to replae the M1's, why not just take the old M1 design, rehash it a bit to work out whatever bugs or announces the M1's had, and go that route - instead of (and possibly failing to...) reinventing the wheel.<<
I can't get into the heads of the LIRR people, but the M-1 is a late 1960s design they feel should be updated to reflect the new millenium. It goes beyond interior appointments and passenger comfort, it encompasses AC propulsion and other advances since the M-1 design first debuted. After all, when the M-1 was designed, they didn't look back at the "Zip Cars" (World's Fair) and design a new fleet to be a new improved version of them.
After all, if the R-62/62A is so successful, why did the TA go with a new design with the R-142/142A instead of updating the R-62/62A with AC propulsion ? Times change, and so does railcar design.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes times change and PCC built before most of you were born will be running long after the last Boeing LRV rusts out at a museum.
The sad reality is that the typical US response to wrecks is make them heavier. The FRA order after the CSX/Amtrak/M|ARC disaster at Georgetown Jct (Silver Spring) seven years ago is illustrative. The accident seems to have been a result of a failure to correctly read a signal AND a lack of a signal which had previously added protection in the approach to the interlocking. The lightweight cab ar versus F40 resulted in fire and 8 deaths. The correct response in my book would be requiring Cab Signals/ with overspeed warning devices. Instead the order came down to build NEW cars more heavily. Note that order does nothing for all current equipment which is grandfathered.
As recent NTSB reports (ATK v. CSX frt in upstate NY) have shown, a single engineer can often screw up. BTW, as a result of the earlier incident, CSX reaffirmed its rules that engineers radio signal indication to dispatchers as a safety measure. Yet in this case it was precisely the signal misread or failure to heed which was the problem. Again, Cab display w/ overspeed warning device wuld have solved the problem.
>>Yes times change and PCC built before most of you were born will be running long after the last Boeing LRV rusts out at a museum.<<
Good point, weren't the Boeing LRVs designed by Moe, Larry and Curly ?
And I'm not talking about Moe Ginsburg, Larry Redbird and Curly Neal either !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Does it need heavier-duty yaw dampers?
>>Does it need heavier-duty yaw dampers? <<
Yaw dampers are currently on the DM/DE locomotives. I don't think Yaw Dampers are used on MUs.
Bill "Newkirk"
Th yaw damper defects on the DE/DM are one of those 16 major punch list items that tthey are being sent to Kentucky for retrofit.
They most certainly are on subway cars, so I see no reason why they are not on commuter rail MUs.
Actually, subway cars use shock absorbers. There are two vertical and one horizontal shocks per truck. They are even made by Monroe. I suspect that the LIRR & MNRR use the same system for lateral movement control on their MUs.
Yeah, and the LIRR is already junking the M-1's even though the M-7's are nowhere near ready for service. Sheesh!
>>Yeah, and the LIRR is already junking the M-1's even though the M-7's are nowhere near ready for service. Sheesh!<<
The M-1s aren't being junked. Those 10 M-1s at Calverton are fire or colision damaged. They obviously can't be repaired and returned to service. Why would the LIRR start scrapping M-1s when they are already short of equipment ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Okay, I stand corrected. However, since they obviously cannot go back into revenue service, couldn't they find someplace else to leave them? I mean, there are people that have to look at those graffiti covered MU's every morning.
And when they were all on a siding on the Babylon Branch next to Holben Yd., thousands of people saw them every AM. & PM
Is it the same graffiti now or has it been tagged over? I kind of liked the "believe" motif.
Watch the crap!
Mark
====
I kind of liked the "believe" motif.
====
That's the same old graffiti.
>>couldn't they find someplace else to leave them? I mean, there are people that have to look at those graffiti covered MU's every morning.<<
Obviously not if there aren't any suitable storage space anywhere. Also there is a house or two nearby,no big deal and people driving by don't have to look at them every morning, they'll have to look at the road when driving.
Bill "Newkirk"
The siding is between two roads that cross the Mainline in a north-south direction. I don't recall any houses adjacent to the siding. The movement of the cars to such a distant siding really shows how desperate the LIRR was for space. The movement of 10 cars that distance was not a cheap proposition. I'm sure that losing the use of that siding will not help NY&AR crews.
>>Why would
the LIRR start scrapping M-1s when they are already
short of equipment ? <<
same reason they started deferring maintenance on the old cars when the M-1's were due but SURPRISE running late. and they were helped by some lack of productivity at the shops.
Coming home, a blind man and his dog came on and took a seat and the dog promptly went underneath the seat so that it wouldn't be in the way of the standees. That's cool that the dog was trained to do that, has anyone else seen a seeing-eye dog do this?
I see it all the time when a blind person accompanied by their service dog gets ont he transit bus that I drive.
Most service dogs ARE trained to get under the seats in such situations, believe it or not.
Correct. They are there to help their owners, not to get in the way of other passengers. Plus, if they're injured by being stepped on, they won't be of any use.
Additionally, trainers often don't want seeing eye, signal and service dogs to play excessively with others - it can distract them from their work. ence the unobstrusive position they take.
These dogs are trained to ignore everything around them thats not associated with their duties. That's why they hardly acknowledge your existance when you pet them.
No offense, but you REALLY shouldn't pet them ... it interferes with their relationship with their "master" ... and they're trained to ignore anyone but the person they're assigned to.
I know that, but children sometimes do not.
Someone sat next to the guy and the dog sniffed him, then went back and layed there. But yeah, seeing eye dogs won't react to anything, not even gunfire.
Yo. Im seriously considering the thought of leaving my beloved Sunnyside along with the Redbirds, and maybe thinking about the Northwest Bronx/Spuyten Duyvil/Riverdale area. I think the area between 242nd, 230th, The Henry Hudson Pkwy, and Broadway would be nice. Unfortunately, the only things i know about it are that there is a big hill, lots of nice apartment buildings, 230th is a step street for a while, and the 1 train. Since its over an hour or so from my place by subway, i dont get up there often. Can anyone tell me anything about that neighborhood? As much info as possible would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Living up on the hill is VERY expensive - that drove me out. But I've been gone from that area for better than 30 years. So I'm thinking good thoughts for you, but don't know the territory these days.
How much is very expensive? im paying about $1600 a month now in Sunnyside. Im thinking about a place on the slope of the hill, maybe closer to Broadway, not all the way up on top. Thats quite a hike to and from the IRT.
Just west of Bway in the 230s is a nice 1- and 2- family home neighborhood (with a few apt. houses), still somewhat Irish, that's cheaper than Riverdale up the hill. Also, north Riverdale in the 250's-260s west of Bway is cheaper than the rest of Riverdale. Also a low rise 1- & 2- family area. -- but you need to take bus to the subway.
Now remember I'm speaking as a Californian so I don't know nearly as much of the West Bronx as other do, but when I took the #1 train to 238th Street and did some looking around I was very impressed with the nice homes and neat apartment buildings I saw. From what I heard from the natives the area is still Irish but there are many Jews, of course, who live in Riverdale. It would seem to me that it would ne a very nice place to live, certainly nothing like some of the o ther areas in the sourthern part of the boriugh.
I sincerely don't know what the going numbers are in that area. Historically, the rents up in Riverdale were insane. Cost as much if not more than Park Avenue in the 60's in midtown. Down in the "valley" the rents are probably about what you're paying now or so ... but I'm 30 years gone, I have NO idea ...
I get a laugh out of the real estate listings in the Times ... there's a category for "Bronx" and a separate category for "Riverdale."
Yeah, when I was growing up (nearly 50 years ago) the distinction was there then too. Don't EVER tell a person up on the hill that they're part of the Bronx. What's amusing though is Yonkers is even MORE run down. I never got it. :)
I live about W260. I call it the Bronx. Thats what it is. The folks in the mansions near the Parkway, thats another story. Private security and speed bumps in front of every corner. I like Piggo's Bronx.
Heh. Well, once upon a time even Johnson Avenue had some "reality" to it. Of course, that was a LONG time ago when it was home to NY Central employees mostly. On a visit back in the late 60's, I was amused by the "Riverdale Security force" (a/k/a/ vigilante squads with shootin' irons) demanding to know my "business" on Johnson Avenue. Wow. Glad I left THAT place. :)
I guess residents of "gated communities" never do realize that THEY'RE the ones imprisoned.
>>>>On a visit back in the late 60's, I was
amused by the "Riverdale Security force" (a/k/a/ vigilante squads with shootin' irons) demanding to know
my "business" on Johnson Avenue. Wow. Glad I left THAT place. :) <<<
Well, it's crazy these days. The other day in the 'world's biggest store', our office is on the 17th floor. I got on, and it filled up so much that I got out on the 15th floor. I don't like crowded elevators. A goon gets off with me and demands to know if I work there. I showed him my employee pass, which shut him down. But he was just doing the job he was told to do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
True, and justified TODAY ... however, the "Riverdale Security force" was a bunch of yahoos driving around in station wagons with shootin' irons. Reminded me a bit too much of Alabammy or Mississippi and like I said, this was in the late 60's ... I'd shudder to think of what it's like there these days. And considering that I'm white and got that kinda treatment back then, could you imagine what a NON white boy would be put through by those thugs?
I'm all for a well-regulated militia, but I do have a problem with vigilantes ...
When I grew up there 20 years ago the security was us "hoodlums" hanging out on the corner. I remember one store owner kept calling the cops to chase us, then one day when it was raining and nobody hanging out he got held up.
Heh. Johnson or 235th? One of the major things I tried to convince people of is that crime doesn't happen as readily when there's people milling around. A lot of neighborhoods that went downhill over the years wouldn't have done so as quickly if people sat out on the stoop more often. Bad folks prefer to ply their trade with no witnesses. If there's folks hanging out, they often pick a "better" location.
>>>...if people sat out on the stoop ...<<
...and here I am thinking that people forgot what a stoop was.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, as we all know a "stoop" is the person who buys your old car. :)
Johnson and 235th
Wow ... da four corners demselves! Heh. I figured it woulda been somewhat UP a block somewhere there, not dead on. Well, that'll learn 'em. Did they still have those morons in the station wagons when you were there or did they eventually hire uniformed-type goons?
No security just the cops waiting for us when we made our way home from the park. The usual against the wall or we bring wake up your parents and inform the of your underage drinking and other extracurricular activities.
Sounds like the vigilantes eventually wore out their welcome. Either that or the 50 actually started coming up the hill. :)
CMP has Garands. Wanna carry my ammo cans?
Is there BEER in those ammo cans? :)
Only the BEST Redbird Nitro: Genny Red
Ewwwwww ... even Killian's is better than THAT swill ... :)
>>>I guess residents of "gated communities" never do realize that THEY'RE the ones imprisoned. <<<
I keeep trying to tell my old man that. He lives in a "gated community" in Fredericksburg, Va.
Peace,
ANDEE
What in heaven's name is going to happen in Fredricksburg, VA? Oh, nevermind ... there's gated communities up in Saratoga as well. Amusing during power failures when they can't get OUT. :)
Hey thanks for the mention!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm just next door to the 50 police station, It's are real nice area, real people, a nice mix of ethnic background ect. I've been there 10 months but am quite pleased. And I got my place as the first one I looked at..........
Is it me, or do you think $1600.00 for an apt is reasonable?
I left Jackson Hts 7 years ago, and was paying for a 6th floor
1 bedroom, $460.00
I live in PA now and pay $1100, but I have a house, yard and live
on a creek!
Who can afford those rents?
For a good-sized one bedroom (600 sq ft) in a decent New York neighborhood, $1600 is reasonable. Rents went sky high in the past 7 years, NYC is now the 2nd most expensive city (second to San Fran). If I wanted the same size apartment in Manhattan, i would pay much more.
>>>For a good-sized one bedroom (600 sq ft) in a decent New York neighborhood, $1600 is reasonable.<<<
It is also impossible to afford for a single person working for an average amount of money. Thank God he invented rent control (yikes! not another rent control thread!)...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thank God he invented rent control (yikes! not another rent control thread!)...
So apparently you ENJOY paying high rents.
>>>>Thank God he invented rent control (yikes! not another rent control thread!)...
So apparently you ENJOY paying high rents. <<<<
I've been at my current apt. for 7 years at a reasonable price only because of rent control. It would have been priced out of sight otherwise.
However: I concur with your anti-rent control stance in one regard. I am effectively trapped in my current place because if I wanted to rent elsewhere, rents are now a good $300-$400 more per month anywhere else I look. When I do move, I will have to buy an apartment....
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've been at my current apt. for 7 years at a reasonable price only because of rent control. It would have been priced out of sight otherwise.
Then you're obviously paying less than your apartment is worth. It makes no sense, if the price isn't at the rate which the market can bear, then how does a person get the apartment, by sucking up to the landlord or by having connections?
When I left the city, I was paying $76.34 for a rent control on Sedgewick and Kingsbridge. The building eventually burned out from under me. Mortgage for our place up here in the sticks is $1540.00 a month so a city rental at about what we're paying to live upstate doesn't seem so insane ... in fact, seems almost cheap. That's the reason why I keep saying I haven't a CLUE as to what rents are worth in the city these days ...
Selkirk, you ought to get a gander at the mortgage and apartment rates out here. I have friends who are paying over two grand a month for a mortgage payment, and good apartments are going for close to the same price. Now it is true that Arcadia, California, is a real nice area, but still the rates are utterly ridiculous. I can thank my wife for moving me to buy our house in early 1973. We paid 40 grand for it and out mortgage is $365.00 a month, including taxes and other incidentals. A real steal. But just six months after we bought our home, the prices started to go out of sight and now my house can get me over 350 grand-----and there is some work t hat is needed to be done. I just don't understand why prices of living quarters are so high. It would be rough to start out today and both my wife and I have been teaching over 30 years and make pretty decent money.
Nah, we know all about it. Otherwise known as Cal Worthington Real Estate - "Califinancing, Californication, Califoreclosure." If you want a new apartment, go see Cal. :)
It IS amusing though to see what the prices are - even worse way up north. And of course, despite the high prices, you can well wake up on a new lot further down the coastline. But ain't much snow to plow.
Lived here since '75....area still great...and yes expensive...Mostly
coops "up the hill"....some rentals ($$$ too)...Best to buy the Riverdale Press..a weekly neighborhood paper...Lots of apts listed...some no fee's...most available thru a broker....Apartments
east of B'way are cheaper..(800 to 1100)....depending on area and
building....
>>>...most available thru a broker....<<<
Heh, yea, those damn brokers will kill 'ya. But, you can still find a decent 1 BR for around $900
Peace,
ANDEE
I like the Riverdale area. I had the opportunity abt 2-3 years ago to get a 4 room apt, in a historic building along the HHP, for about $850. I turned it down because I work in Bayside 1-2 nights a week, and without a car, well I'd be getting home abt 2AM. But without that job I would have done it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I live right in the area you are talking about. I live on Kingsbridge Avenue near W236 (next door to the 50 PCT). It is a nice neighborhood, and if you stay in waht is called Kingsbridge (south of 238 and east of the hill on which riverday sits) you will find some pretty good rents. There are several nice apartment building that are right near by me and have apartment for rent signs up. If you can email me, we could talk or meet to discuss in more detail. I only moved there about 10 months ago, but I'm very happy with the area!
I like that neighborhood. I've only been there once, when I was tracking down the house in Riverdale where the composer Bela Bartok lived. I thought it was really nice. That trip gave me my very first Redbird ride, too.
Mark
I might be mistaken, but is the Q coming in on the N line tracks? I rode the Q today, and wasn't paying too much attention when I got off. This is a cutback because the Brighton line can only use one track on this platform, as one of the tracks ends in a bumper block.
The N platform at Stillwell is fenced off and has no staircases. You would have known if you got off there - the pain from walking through the fence, the impressive leaps up (or down).
Oh, hah hah hah! I was out of it today from lack of sleep last night. LOL!
I also heard rumors that the Q local will end at Brighton Beach as soon as the next phase of construction at Stillwell Ave. begins, when will that take place. I will be there in a couple of weeks.
Oops! I forgot to put a question mark at the end of my question.
What will be stopping at the stations after Brighton?
I don't think this is so. The Q could use the N platform, at least one track, after the Sea Beach and West End platforms have been completely rebuilt. Even so, the Q could terminate at Ocean Parkway, not BB.
The Q WILL terminate at Brighton Beach - that's where the crew facilities are; thta's where the switches are.
There are RUMORS that the Q Express will terminate at Kings Highway, while the local continues to Brighton Beach. There are RUMORS that a shuttle will run from Brighton Beach to W.8 St, while the people using Neptune Ave will be forced to hoof it to either Ave X, W.8 St or Ocean Parkway
The Q could terminate at Ocean Parkway using the now unused center tracks. Crossovers south of BB make this possible.
No, Most of the time, it is used as a layup track. Ocean Pkwy. is not a terminal, Brighton Beach is.
Yes, it could be done. There may not be any crew quarters, but Q trains could use the 2 center tracks at Ocean Parkway, using the crossover SOUTH of Brighton Beach. Check the track maps of the area.
I was aware of the switch since I ride the Brighton every time I'm visiting my Grandmother. I truly think though W. 8th St. was in the works since there is that switch between there and Stillwell. I guess we'll see what the TA will do.
there is that switch between there and Stillwell.
Wasn't that switch used for getting trains off the N's track and onto the northbound Brighton track? If it wasn't there the trains would have to wrong rail until Ocean Pkway.
Is the West End platform being renovated right now? If so, then wouldn't the W have to terminate at Bay Parkway or something?
And how long will the Stillwell renos run? I wanna be there to see the whole thing open when I return to NY sometime in the next 10 years.
Oops, sorry...wishful thinking on both counts. *sigh*
-J!
The "W" service soon will be the ONLY service for Stillwell/Coney Island.
What will likely happen, is as each station is rehabbed, the terminal will shift to another terminal within the station.
For about two years, both the Q lcl and exp will end at BB, the F will end at Ave X, and shuttles will run from both of those terminals to W 8th, where there is a bus to CI.
Shuttle buses or shuttle trains? (I would, of course, prefer having both.)
- Lyle Goldman
the next phase isnt starting untill around September.In Which the Q will end at Brighton Beach,most definatly sharing a track with the Q Brighton Exp like it does at 57th St. and the F will end at Ave X.Shuttle buses will run from each station to Coney Island.And then that leaves only the W train at CI.I think people there are gonna really be pissed off about it really quick and we might see the N train return to CI sharing the only platform with the W.It could happen,they share platforms at Ditmars Blvd.
Unca Fred's gonna have a CANARY you saying that. When he comes in October, let's get together and throw some switches. :)
Are you planning on joining us, too? This has the makings of an Animal House-type of railfan excursion.
Won't know for sure until we get within a week or two of the designated time coordinates - since we're self-employed, we're stuck by the whims of customers and Microsoft's latest raindance to plan by. But I'm going to do my damndest to get down there, just to bust Fred's chops. After all, I know da Bronx. We wouldn't wanna find his shooz hanging from a phone pole now would we? :)
I think we out to have the Sarge to umpire between the 2 sides and protecxt the pub;lic
Armored personnel carriers come to mind. :)
Well, I will be wearing my Confederate uniform... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nahh ... a friendly rivalry at Keyspan Stadium with all of us in the stands munching on Nathan's franks oughtta be sufficient :) It would probably go something like this ....
"Bob"
"Fred"
"Bob"
"Fred"
"tastes great"
"less filling"
"BMT"
"IND"
"IRT"
.....
--Mark
Fred, you got to ridse the Cyclone Before you eat at Nathans not after so you won t barf all over yourself again
Aw come on, stop lying about my record. Sounds like Bob Dole, eh? You know I never barfed after riding the Cyclone and you also know that I would ride it first before eating. I did do the opposite last April 1 when a bunch of us went railfanning, but that only because everyone told us the Cyclone wasn't open because of threatening weather only to find out it was open. Needless to say three of us went on and had a blast. The other eight sat it out. If they only knew what a fabulous ride the Cyclone is. There is no other ride like it anywhere.
For a year or two the cars were sometimes run BACKWARDS.
--Mark
As long as it doesn't happen on a crush loaded train with the heat on.
You forgot:
"Sea Beach!"
"Brighton!"
"SEA BEACH!!"
"BRIGHTON!!"
"SEA BEACH!!!"
"BRIGHTON!!!"
Or even:
"Dodgers!"
"Yankees!"
"Mets!"
I'll try not to laugh too hard.
Hey Bob, do you have a Yankees cap?
This afternoon there was a problem on the J train I was aboard at Cypress Hills around 4:00 PM. A kid spit on the conductors face and the conductor gets of the train and chases the kid to the street and I think he caught him so he went to the tooken booth and called the police & EMT and they arrived immediatly. Northbound service was disrupted for like 30 minutes or so and passengers were very angry. Damn that conductor ran hell quickly to catch that stupid ass kid that spit in his face!!!
Even though that wasn't professional on the conductors part that tells why cameras are needed on the subway. So parents wouldn't be so fast to sue until they saw the stupid crap their kids did.
Everyone in the TA thinks it's so easy to control yourself when some knucklehead spits in your face or swings a fist or something at you. When something like that happens, the rule book is out the window, and thinking about calling Control is not even a matter, all you think about is an age-old instinct of SELF PRESERVATION.....protect yourself from an attacker. Control ain't gonna gonna save you from an attack, all they specialize in is "signal for police enroute". That doesn't help if someone assaults you, attempts to assault you, and the only thing you got to do is defend your well being and body from attack. As for the spit, you do not know if that person might have some kind of disease, not to mention spitting is not only classified as an assault, but it is the biggest and highest form of disrespect and provocation ANYONE ANYWHERE IN ANY JOB can face, and all you think then about is making sure that spitter "regrets ever spitting in anyone's face again"!! That kid is lucky all the conductor did was catch him, and not beat him to a pulp. And yes they should have the cameras in the system to see some of the things people do to us out here, so maybe the TA and others can understand why certain things happen, and why in this situation "being professional and courteous" DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAPPEN!!!
I'd have done the same thing had I been the conductor. If he's disciplined, it would be an injustice.
I don't think any transit worker should have to take some punk spitting at him/her.
Hopefully there were enough angry passengers to show up in court to finger the little sheet ...
So what made the Kid did such thing? Oh,let me guess he was very high on Marijuana while waiting for train at unknown station. Or his girlfriend broke up with him at train and be4 got off at Crescent Street.
Maybe he's just an asshole ...
So what made the Kid did such thing?
Nothing a little Ritalin wouldn't cure.
Let say he's just unstabled at that time. Thank god it he did'nt turned out to be a terrorist
Well I think he's a kid who needs a girl and/or something else better to do with his time, which he might have had too much of on his hands where he couldn't think of anything better to do than to spit, and let's not forget the area around Crescent Street station isn't necessarily filled with child prodigies with intelligence and good behavior.
The kid is nuts. Conductor chased him because he can't stand such abuse. Frankly the conductor managed to contact authories instead of take the matter in his own hands. Kid should learn to respect others. What happen was the conduct done nothin wrong to kid beside open the train door to let him out. Its not like the conduct told the kid to get off the train through intercom. I mean what wrong that?
Unbelievable, how some stupid kid can cause the whole line to be upset. I don't blame the conductor though. The smartass kid deserved top be caught.
This is something that happens every day to C/R's. I had 6 Spit attempts on me. All hit the window because my window goes up when I see something not right.
I hope the C/R did catch those Kids.
Anyone here know about hot to do that?
Why don't you try to use them?
>>How to chose a Station on the NEW LIRR TVM's?<<
>>Anyone here know about how to do that?<<
Just use your finger. The new LIRR TVM machines may have instruction booklets right beside them. It's as easy as using a Metrocard vending machine.
Bill "Newkirk"
you press the first letter (on the screen for your station. A screen comes up listing all stations beginning with that letter. ie- B wouild bring up babylon, Bellmore, etc.
I uploaded another batch of scanned 35 mm color slides, representing a variety of subjects snapped from 1974 to 1981. Subjects include diesel (PRSL GP38's, PC E8's, CNJ GP40P's, PRSL and Reading Budd RDC's), steam (ex-FEC 148, ex-RDG 2101, BR&W Alco #60, Southern #722), and electric (Red Arrow Liberty Liner; PC MP54's, E33's, E44's, and GG1's; NJDOT GG1's; SEPTA Pioneer III and PATH PA1).
Railfan slides 5
Great pictures, Bob. Have any of those MP-54's been preserved?
Why did they change the B Train to the W Train, Whats the difference its supposed to make? And why did they change the D and Q Trains In Brooklyn?
The Department of Transportation is doing construction on the Manhatthan Bridge. When the DOT is also repairing trackage on the bridge. They started on the South Side which connects to the Broadway line. When The DOT finished on the South Side they started on the North Side. The B,D and Q runs on the North Side. Since trains obviously can't run on the North Side the MTA switched the Q to the South Side for the Brighton Line. They couldn't use the D because the Broadway line doesn't connect to the Concourse line on the D. So they'ed had the Q run on the D line in Brooklyn. The West End Line needed a subway line since the Concourse line needed the B to run there. So the MTA created the W to run on that side. So that's why we have the Q and W. The Brighton line is too long for just local service. So the MTA created the Q diamond. That is why we have 2 Q's and a letter named after the President.
Actually the DOT started with the north side of the bridge in 1986. The north side of the bridge closed from 1986-88, which necessitated the need for the split B and D service. From 1986 to 1988 we had two B's and two D's, the regular 6th Avenue orange B and D from the Bronx and upper Manhattan to 34th Street, and a Broadway yellow B and D from Astoria and midtown Manhattan to Brooklyn. Basically, that is the current service pattern, except that the "yellow B" is called the W and the "yellow D" is called the Q (circle).
When the south side of the bridge closed in 1989, the Q was rerouted to 6th Avenue. It never originally ran there ... and hopefully it never will again.
Running both yellow/Broadway and orange/6th Avenue B and D trains at the same time proved to be too confusing the last time around.
Rubbish! People understood the difference between both yellow & orange B/D's in the 1980's.
It's harder to announce for the conductors though.
The good news is MTH has announced:
R-17 2 car Add on set is listed 30-2122-3 $99.95
R-21 2 car Add-On set is listed 30-2198-3 $99.95
R-36 4 car set in World's fair colors 30-2274-1 $349.95
Subway Work train with protosound #30-2273-1 $349.95
THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS
The bad news is the R-17 set delivery date has been pushed back to the Ides of March.
THAT'S THE BAD NEWS
The ugly is the mood of those of us who have been waiting a year now.
And I thought it was six months of Redbird labor in the Siberian camps. CI Peter
Yeah, but what about the 'any minute now' R-32 sets??? You didn't mention when they'll be available.
Not holding my breath for the work train set as it's already been reported that they'll fake the GE 50-ton loco with an SW unit, not to add that they're not doing a Mantis crane, but a 'spotlight car'. Not exactly NYCT prototype.
BMTman
Doug, you are absolutely correct. The thunmbnails are up on the MTH website if you have the patience to hunt for them. It looks like an SW-1500, as you said BUT the rider car looks like one of the R-21s painted in the prototypical yellow/black paint scheme and it looks really good.
Of course they merely did up one of the R-21's -- I expected that. And it it prototypical, too. But laming out on the choice of diesel was a mistake. If they had done a true GE 50 tonner they could have gotten more purchase 'milage' out of the model by offering them in the SBK color schemes as well. Doubt if the MOW sets will sell anything like the Redbirds or R-32's.
BMTman
I'll bet a lot of dealers will get customer requests to break sets, and sell the R-21 yellow car separately. The dealers would be stuck with the rest of the set if they did this.
You read my mind, Karl.
A pair would make a nice $$$$$ Train.
avid
Maybe, just MAYBE MTH will see some wisdom in selling the cars ALONE in both powered and unpowered ... I'm sure a LOT of folks would be interested in yellowbirds but don't need the "what's going on in the third floor of that apartment" search light. :)
Maybe a beer tanker in NYCTA yellow as well ... nah.
The locomotive substitution is unfortunate. I was at Westchester Locomotive shop on business yesterday and noted three things: 1. those SL50 locomotives are really COOL. 2. The NYCT employees who maintain them are just about the most professional railroaders I've ever encountered and they're PROUD of the equipment based there. 3. The quality of a Westchester Locomotive Shop overhaul was illustrated by an SL50 that was being overhauled including a major air brake upgrade. First the engine cab (hood) was removed. Then the 6N distributing valve, H-5-B relayair valve and associated piping was torched out of the unit to be replaced with a full set of 26-L road unit brakes and the oil engine, air compressor and main generator were removed to be exchanged for rebuilt units. I was told that the contactors and traction motors were exchanged as well. The resulting product will be in effect, a new locomotive. The people of the City of New York can be proud of the craftsmen of the Division Of Car Equipment, and I would love to have an accurate model of these unique and VERY fascinating locomotives.
John, I'm happy that your trip was a success.
Thanks, Steve, everything went well.
CED Makes Trains Go
One really good thing that MTH decided to do for the R-36 sets, the R-21-add-ons, and the R-17 add-ons:
They will now use fast-angle wheels on the non-powered cars. This will (somewhat) reduce the friction and rolling resistance of the trailer cars, and allow for longer trains.
Joe Frank (The rapid transit model buidler extraordinaire) tipped me off to the fact that the GSI truck sideframes on all the New York models have small round holes on their backsides that line up with the axle journals. Joe converted his MTH sets to two-rail by building new truck bolsters and and inserting needle-point insulated axles.
I've been thinking about doing something similar with my MTH sets: namely, building lightweight, wooden floors attached to newly-fabricated trucks utilizing the same sideframes, but using needle-point, fast-angle wheelsets. Maybe then I can pull an 8- or 10-car train with only one powered unit.
That sounds like an ambitious project. I have a fair sized O gauge layout and 4 cars look good. I can run 6 if I want but I'm afraid 8 cars looks a bit too long. I've not found that reasonable grades (2-3%) are a problem for the power cars, pulling trains up to 6 car-lengths.
EMU M-7 Long Island Rail Road - New York, USA
Operator MTA Long Island Rail Road
Length 25,908 mm - 85' 0''
Width 3,200 mm - 10' 6''
Max. Speed 160 km/h - 100 mph
Seated Passengers 110 (A car)
101 (B car)
Bombardier Transportation is providing M-7 Electric Multiple Units to the MTA Long Island Rail Road of New York, the largest commuter rail system in North America.
The units are equipped with Bombardier's renowned stainless steel carbodies for long life and low maintenance, and asynchronous AC motors. The interior of the cars was designed with the input of the passengers and employees.
Would you happen to know the weight of the cars?
I'm not sure about the weight yet I will post when I recieve information.
Thanx :-) Keep the info flowin'!! :-)
Any plans for rebuilding stations from Nostrand Av. to Euclid Av.?
And why is it that at Nostrand Av. the A is Upstairs and the C is downstairs? That is bad because when people want to transfer between trains they have to run up or down the stairs. And people who want to cross to the opposite direction can't.
Perhaps it was some kind of provision for the IND second system?
:-) Andrew
Supposely at the north end of the station there was a cross-over and a part time booth there. It was closed because no one really used it. Also there was going to be a connection to a Nostrand Ave subway. I don't know if anything was built on it. I don't think so.
My theory about Nostrand Ave is that it was going to be a local stop. The station shell and the platforms were installed. Then someone realised it was to be an express stop. It was too late to build island platforms so they built a 2 level station instead.
I don't know the station, but the obvious guess is that the street above isn't wide enough for a full size standard express station with two island platforms.
For example, Smith St isn't wide enough for all 4 F/G tracks, and Lexington Ave mostly isn't wide enough for the 4/5/6.
Take a look at the track map and compare it to Fulton St station on the J/M/Z. It's exactly the same situation, except with 2 tracks over 2 tracks instead of 1 over 1.
My guess is that Fulton St is motly wide enough for full size stations, and always wide enough for 4 tracks, but just at Nostrand not wide enough for the tracks plus the platforms.
The proof would be if Fulton St were wider at Utica Ave than it is at Nostrand.
Smith Street isn't wide enough for 4 tracks, because the subway for part of the run isn't under Smith Street, but under playgrounds just west of Smith Street.
The reason why the trackage expands to all 4 tracks on one level is due to the IND viaduct beginning just south of Carroll Street. All 4 tracks had to be on one level for the concrete elevated portion.
The proof would be if Fulton St were wider at Utica Ave than it is at Nostrand.
It is NOT. Douce Man's theory makes the most sense.
They did rebuild the Utica Ave station on this line and did a wonderful job. The Rockaway Park stations are in dire need of rebuilds. Hopefully they will get to these stations next.
IIRC, there was some discussion on this board a while back as to whether or not TMNY could put controls in the non-control end of their single "Q" and the consensus seemed to be that they shouldn't because it was "not original" or something like that.
Well, I recall now that there were a bunch of double-ended "Q" singles, called "QXs" that were numbered (IIRC--I'm too lazy to look it up) 1630-1642.
So TMNY could have a double-ended Q and fudge the number ;-)
But is it even close to operational, so isn't the point moot?
Paul, weren't the QX's two car sets?
For some reason, Karl, it also sticks in my mind that the QX were two-car sets, but my roster notes say they were singles. Also they were individually numbered, not A-B or A-B-C like the regular Qs. Maybe they were originally singles, and the TA doubled them up for convenience?
For the record, they were 1630 thru 1643.
Paul: The QX's were two car units composed of a motor and a control trailer. They were numbered 1630-1642 AB. The last of the QX's 1630B and 1635B sit in the 2 Avenue Yard of the South Brooklyn Railway in a much reduced state along with Q 1612B.
Larry,RedbirdR33
QX was the term applied to a pair of Q motor cars, as opposed
to the usual 3-car motor-trailer-motor.
Unfortunately the "preservation" of the Q types got completely
screwed up during the 1970s. Instead of preserving a 3-car
set of Qs as Qs, they took a perfectly good set and "restored"
the 3 cars back to BUs. Only trouble is these cars, now in
the Transit Museum, are "BQs". They are unauthentic in several
major ways including trucks and roof. The only Qs saved as Qs
are the single car in the Transit Museum, the single at Kingston,
and the 3 hulks which have been sitting on the scrap line for years.
I know that originally it was intended to keep another 3 car set
as Qs, but that didn't happen, so in retrospect it would have been
better to restore just 1 car and leave the 3 car set as Qs.
>>>They are unauthentic in several
major ways including trucks and roof. <<<
IIRC, wasn't the roof modification due to clearance issues?
Peace,
ANDEE
Right!
The modifications to the placement of marker lights occurred years before the roofs were lowered. Marker lights were moved inward during the Q's Time on the 3rd Av El.
If we want the BQs to look more authentic, even the marker light arrangement would have to be changed, to resemble a car like Branford's 1227. Yes indeedy, they don't make cars like that anymore! Lol.
-Stef
Just for the record, I don't support the modification of the Q Car other than what it should have. I propose running the car as is (single ended), ala PCC, or finding a TMNY mate that it could run with. Hell, I'd run it with the Lo-V if that's possible!
Recall, that Branford's Car 1001 generally runs in one direction, and has to have someone at the other end to be the eyes of the operator, when it runs in reverse.
-Stef
Although I think Jeff H. is correct on the nomenclature of "QX" as Q motors in which the trailer was withdrawn, there were, nevertheless, those Q singles. I've looked over my notes and see no indication that they were ever paired--they were not A-B and they were scrapped as singles. I don't know when they were last used in passenger service but they seem to have been "A"s to the Q-types "B"s.
So I still feel TMNY should operate their Q double-end.
As to authentic, it's a shame they didn't save a complete Q set--especially since the set they converted back to gate cars was the set that made the 50th anniversary run in 1965. However, since the cars were by A) changed by the lineal successor to the BMT and B) the very agency that last operated these cars in passenger service who C) reconverted these cars in the very shop in which they were converted in the first place and D) the opportunity to assemble a three-car train of gate cars you can actually use in passenger (fantrip) service on the lines they originally operated THE OPPORTUNITY IS TOO GREAT TO PASS UP! :)
So I forgive them.
Paul,
Did you know that the three gate cars in the museum were not a matched Q car set. The rerebuilt cars were actually 1622A,1622B & 1603C. I have no idea why the TA did this. 1603C is today's 1404. 1622A is 1407, and 1622B is 1273.
The QX creation has very little info published about it, but they were apparently two power cars and no trailer at all. One roster would indicate that QX 1642 AB was converted from 1288 and 1256. They were later separated and the old 1256 became 1643.
I am assuming that this meant that there were two single power car Q's, 1642 & 1643.
I am guessing that they left the markers inboard on the rerebuilt cars in the museum because they did nothing to restore the clerestory roofs either.
Have you noticed that the original 700 series BU's had inboard marker lights, which was unlike all of the other BU's?. It made them appear to be IRT style from the beginning.
Karl: I liked your post on the Last Lex very much. Regarding the BU/Q's I think that you may have uncovered an error in "The Brooklyn Elevated" by James C Greller and Edward B Watson.
The nucleus of the transit museum fleet made its first appearance at the New York World's Fair on July 22,1965. Three trainsets were reconditioned and run to Queens that day; IRT Lo-V Motors 5286,5290,5443,5466 and 5483,BMT Q Type 1622 ABC and B Type 2390-1-2.
Of course the B type ran only to Queensboro Plaza where passengers transfered to the Q which was repainted into the New York City colors of blue and orange. Although planned for the meseum all three units subsequently returned to passenger service.
In June 1978 1622 ABC entered the Coney Island shop for conversion back to open platform BU cars 1404-1273-1407. These rebuilt units were placed in the transit museum at Court Street on September 14,1979. My best information is that the first time they re-entered passeger service as BU's was for an open house at the Coney Island Shop on October 13,1979. They ran as a special between from the shop around the loop to the stub track at 86 Street Station alternating with the Lo-V's. I rode them that day along with my 10 week old son who took his first train ride on BU 1404.
A second unit 1602ABC was supposed to be preserved and survived the scrapping of the Q-Type in 1970. 1602A is now at Kingston but I do not know what happened to the other two units.
I believe that the reference in the back of "The Brookln Elevateds" to 1404 being the former 1603C is not correct.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, my own notes from 40 years ago (which doesn't mean they're bulletproof, just that I made them long before the issue of which museum car is which and before the Greller/Watson book) say the following about Q-units 1603 and 1622:
1603-ABC was 1419-1252-1404
1622-ABC was 1407-1273-1265
The restored cars are 1407-1273-1404.
So this seems to argue that at some point there was a switch between 1603C and 1622C
Paul: Based on your response I dug a little bit deeper. 1404 is the former 1622C but there is more to the story. Apparently when first converted to Q 1404 was renumbered 1603C and in April 1957 was renumbered 1622C. 1466 when converted to Q was renumbered 1621C and in April 1957 was renumber 1603C. So our BU consist should read as follows:
1404 ex 1622C ex 1603C ex 1404
1273 ex 1622B ex 1273
1407 ex 1622A ex 1407
It seems that several Q's were renumbered a second time in the 1950's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, Thanks for the kind words on the recollection!
This whole Q conversion is confusing to say the least. They probably should have left them as BU's. I know I would have preferred it that way.
Karl: The Q are in a way a forgotten car. The QX are even more so. It seems that after the conversion they were abandoned by the BU fans and never really developed a following of their own. They became the last woooden cars still running in the US by the time they stopped running in 1969 and yet they were damned by fans for replacing the BU's. The Q/QX rebiulds were certainly a more attractive rebuild then the C-Types. Because of the Q's we are fortunate to have one BU set in the transit museum. While it may not be a perfect duplicate of the old BU's its nice to have a least one train still capable of service where you enter by gates and not sliding doors. Also the relocated marker lights and lowered roof while not as aesthetically pleasing as the original give the cars a much greater utility enabling them to run throughout the system.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Something's out of joint here. The scarplist for June 13, 1961 says as follows:
BMT Q TYPE ELEVATED MOTOR PASSENGER CARS
6 1635 1904-05
7 1636 1904-05
8 1637 1904-05
9 1638 1904-05
10 1639 1904-05
11 1640 1904-05
12 1642 1904-05
The above seven (7) type elevated motor passenger cars are equipped with fourteen (14) scrap motor trucks and eight (8) scrap motors.
Whenever regular Qs were scraped they were explicitly "1602A" or whatever.
I still find it difficult to believe that the TA created QX's in the first place. I would think that QX meant that it was a two car set, a motor car with one powered truck, and a trailer with no powered truck.
Wouldn't you think that a QX like that would have all it could do to propel itself around let alone be used in work train service where it would have to pull additional trailers. The QX's saw a lot of work train service.
Dare I suggest that the QX's were misnomered, and were really two power cars semi permanently coupled, that should have been called QT's. I'm just suggesting this, not stating it is fact!
That might have created confusion, as by then the Brighton local via tunnel was given the QT letter marking.
This has been an interesting discussion on Q's, BU's and QX's. Now that everyone's thinking about the Q's, may I suggest you put some dollars to work and donate something towards restoring the Q car at the Trolley Museum. The guys currently working on 6398 are considering moving to the Q next. There is no fund money banked for the Q restoration yet, but we should start building a nest egg for it now. Visit tmny.org for information how to donate, or donate on-line at shop.tmny.org (look for the membership area).
Evan, I can hear the crickets.
Karl: This Q Type discussion is getting very interesting.
The Q's as rebuilt consisted of 30 three car sets consisting of a motor-trailer-motor. They were numbered 1600-1629 threby giving a total of 90 cars.
The QX's as rebuilt consisted of 12 thirteen two car sets consisting of a motor-control trailer. They were numbered 1630-1642 thereby giving a total of 26 cars.
I know that your well aware of this and only list it here for clarity.
In 1952 QX set 1642AB was borken up for whatever reason. 1642B the former 1256 was renumbered 1643 thereby giving the QX one higher number.
1642A was the former 1288.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Paul, I've read up and down this interesting thread!
I didn't realize that the B cars of the QX units were de-motored.
It would seem rather under-powered. However, the Qs were remembered
as slow cars because they spent their last 2decades serving rickety
el structures and their original motor trucks (ALCO MCB style with
dual WH 300 motors @190 hp ea) were replaced with the "Composite"
trucks (more accurately the "Hedley" IRT shop specials designed
and built by the IRT in 1912) with smaller (120 hp) motors
distributed one per truck in max-trax arrangement. At only 240hp
per car and with every third car a trailer, they were understandably
slow. Prior to their 3rd ave el conversion, they would have been
pretty quick cars....as much HP as an R-9 but 10 tons lighter.
The QX units were created at the same time as the A-B-C Qs
for the 1939 fair. Perhaps the intent was to be able to run
10-car trains? Or did they run 11? It's not clear to me if the QX
units were put on the composite trucks in 1950 or simply retained
as work motors.
As for authenticity, I've heard that argument before, that since
the TA is the descendant of the original operating company, any
mods done to the cars are automatically authentic. Frankly I don't
buy it, but what's done is done. I doubt the Transit Museum today
would do such a retrogression, but at the time it was the Transit
Exhibit and the museological standards were not being applied.
However, there is no evidence that such a thing ever existed as
a single unit, double-ended Q type. The scrap list you cited
doesn't make too much sense. 7 cars equals 14 trucks,
but 8 motors??! The most authentic thing Kingston could do
is to acquire one of those wrecks from the hose reach train,
re-install the controls on the one end, and hook it up to their
"A" car to make a QX configuration (even though the car #s in
question were never QX, that's more legit than adding a cab
where none existed). But, if it is purely a matter of
operational convenience, it wouldn't be that hard to hook up a
"hostler" on the rear end to control the thing for backup moves, made
up from modern components, like an automatic brake valve from
a schedule 26L system or, heavens, an ME42B with some amusing
modifications, and a few pushbuttons for the propulsion trainlines.
< N.B.: Liberally snipped to keep size humongous instead of gargantuan >
Paul,
< snip interesting stuff about Q type power and running gear >
As for authenticity, I've heard that argument before, that since
the TA is the descendant of the original operating company, any
mods done to the cars are automatically authentic. Frankly I don't
buy it, but what's done is done. I doubt the Transit Museum today
would do such a retrogression, but at the time it was the Transit
Exhibit and the museological standards were not being applied.
I have truly mixed feelings about this. On individual examples I go one way or other, or sometimes both ;-)
What I'm saying is that, in the specific case of the Q to BU conversion, the lineal nature of corporate descent, the method of conversion and other issues give this conversion a "leg up" over others. IOW, it would have been better is they had saved a 3-car set of Qs and reconverted three of them (or even better all of them).
Are 1407-1273-1404 authentic? Yes and no. They are not restored back to what they were before 1939. But this is 2002, not before 1939. They are not replicas. I think the issue comes down to asking what is being preserved. Most of us would agree that, as long as something is in regular service, any change made to it is "authentic." I really dislike the change made to the sign bonnets of the R32. To me, when I see a train of R32s heading toward me, it looks like a bastardization of what a "real" R32 looks like. But it is a "real" R32, whether I like it or not.
I have to give some points to an operating agency. What do we do with the new pre-PCC-style trolleys in New Orleans? They aren't authentic c.1924 cars. They're brand new. But does this make them inauthentic? They're authentic non-PCC, non-modern-design trolleys doing what they were intended to do. When they are retired, they would be suitable to go to a trolley museum as a "real" 1990s-era old-style trolley (so long as you say what it is).
But I wouldn't give a museum a "pass" to buy one of these cars directly from the manufacturer and call it as authentic as if it had been in regular service.
My point, which I'm taking too long to make in a BB posting, is that "authentic" includes more than physical components. It includes setting, use, and even people. When I see PCC 1001 in Branford, I'm absolutely delighted, with its NEXT CAR bullet restored and real BMT paint. But I rode 1001, 1000 and many other Brooklyn PCCs in regular service and it looks wrong to me. The cars I remember were green and silver, kind of beat up, with a BofT logo on them, in which people sat impassively while motorists cursed out the trolley for nosing onto McDonald Ave. from the 16th Avenue Loop. A BMT Brown PCC riding through Connecticut woods with a bunch of railfans and tourists in it is not a recreatiion of the real experience. It is a necessary compromise where you're doing the best you can.
Does this give the TA license to do whatever it wants because it is blessed by the "authentic" fairy? Not at all. They should do no more than they have to for the purpose (I'd like to see the marker lamps moved) but if they decided to re-re-convert to a Q set (they could do it), I would fight it.
However, there is no evidence that such a thing ever existed as a single unit, double-ended Q type. The scrap list you cited doesn't make too much sense. 7 cars equals 14 trucks, but 8 motors??!
I cited the list verbatim to indicate that the cars were scrapped as individual cars under individual numbers, not as "A"s and "B"s. The number of trucks jibes with the number of cars (7 single cars, 14 trucks). As to the "8 motors" note that the list says "scrap motor trucks" and "scrap motors." The TA delivered equipment to you with whatever they wanted to shove under it. You got a car with two trucks and eight wheels and whatever else they wanted to stick on. Mix and match. If you were getting original equipment, they said so.
Apparently the QXs were originally made up A-B, but something appears to have happened before the final scrapping. I can further back this up--there is an article in the NYD ERA Bulletin 12/65, p.8, with some latter-day Q renumberings: It shows that eff. 10/64, work car 20616 was 1630 was 1630B was 1231. Similar for 1631 ex-1631B, 1632 ex-1632B.
The most authentic thing Kingston could do is to acquire one of those wrecks from the hose reach train, re-install the controls on the one end, and hook it up to their "A" car to make a QX configuration (even though the car #s in question were never QX, that's more legit than adding a cab where none existed).
Aren't those hose cars too far gone? If they're not, I'd like to see the TA rehab them.
But, if it is purely a matter of operational convenience, it wouldn't be that hard to hook up a "hostler" on the rear end to control the thing for backup moves, made up from modern components, like an automatic brake valve from a schedule 26L system or, heavens, an ME42B with some amusing modifications, and a few pushbuttons for the propulsion trainlines.
Some people think that would be going to far. But I agree they should do it that way.
Are 1407-1273-1404 authentic? Yes and no. They are not restored back to what they were
before 1939. But this is 2002, not before 1939. They are not replicas. I think the issue comes down
to asking what is being preserved. Most of us would agree that, as long as something is in regular
service, any change made to it is "authentic." I really dislike the change made to the sign bonnets
of the R32. To me, when I see a train of R32s heading toward me, it looks like a bastardization of
what a "real" R32 looks like. But it is a "real" R32, whether I like it or not.
A grey area. In theory, any changes made to the cars "in regular
service" are legit. The GOH is part of the service life of the R32.
It is unfortunate that one specimen was not saved in original
condition. But once a car enters the realm of "museum fleet" status,
it should be held to a different set of standards, even if the
car does see occasional service for fantrips, or the museum Lo-Vs
in service during 1979, etc.
As for New Orleans, you're right, they are authentic heritage
streetcars. They aren't trying to pass them off as genuine 1924
vintage Perley A. Thomas cars. Eventually they will be retired and
their preservation will come up. Branford has a "replica" which
is now an artifact, a horsecar built by Toronto Transit Comm. in 1932.
The cars I remember were green and silver, kind of beat up, with a BofT logo on them
Ah, now we enter a touchy area. Paint schemes are always a hot issue
with railfans because "...I remember...." You're right, most railfans
alive today remember 1001 in green and silver. But the car ran more
of its life in the pachyderm gray BQT livery (1936-approx 1948), and
THAT particular car is significant in being "the first one".
They should do no more than they have to for the purpose (I'd like to see the marker lamps moved) but if they decided to re-re-convert to a Q set (they could do it), I would fight it.
What if (not that this is going to happen anyway) the BQs were
de-unconverted and the single Q became a legit 1400 series car?
Apparently the QXs were originally made up A-B, but something appears to have happened before the final scrapping.
Let me know if you unearth anything further. You're right, it does
appear the TA renumbered these cars somehow.
Aren't those hose cars too far gone? If they're not, I'd like to see the TA rehab them.
They're pretty rough and many things are missing from them.
I've seen Seashore rebuild cars from much less, although at
what point does the car become a replica built in-situ?
Probably between the 3 cars there is enough to make one complete
QX "B" car, which is why I suggested Kingston.
Some people think that would be going to far. But I agree they should do it that way.
This is a technique I use in museum maintenance work. Where the
original parts are not available or an unauthentic addition is being
made of necessity, rather than trying to use something of a similar
vintage which would look plausible, I'll use what is obviously
a modern component. This way, there is no deception. I'll also
stamp or paint on the date of install and the museum's initials.
I was in Staten Island today on a mission for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I noticed that they seem to be building the new ferry terminal at Battery Park AROUND the present one.
What will be done with the space the present one occupies?
It will be the new one. They knocked down the slip nearest the Maritime building and rebuilt it. When complete (they say within a month - yeah, right), the opposite end will be demolished and rebuilt. Then, with two side built, they are going to connect the dots with a new middle.
There were news items this week about how the LIRR wants to place a passenger station in Sunnyside Yards, which to me makes no sense on the face of it.
Unless you put a people mover or something like that to connect to the trains at Queens and Qveensborovgh Plazas; except for that, the Sunnyside Yards are in the middle of nowhere unless you want to do a direct link to the big box stores on Northern Blvd., which most people drive to anyway....
www.forgotten-ny.com
This is part of East Side access plan for the LIRR. Once they connect LIRR to 63rd St. tunnel, there will be a station in Sunnyside which will be connected in some way to the Queens(boro) Plaza stations for a transfer.
Maybe because they will close Hunterspoint Avenue, but I don't know if that is what they are planning to do. I know alot of people that use Hunterspoint Avenue take the 7 to the East side, so when the trains go to Grand Central, maybe they may not need it any more.
I don't see any big need either. I suspect it's political cover for Queens politicians who may catch flak for allowing some tunnelling without getting anything in return.
CG
A) they're not 'wanting' to plac a station there, THEY ARE going to build a station there.
B) there's a lot of damn good reasons to do it, and plenty of places one might read allll about it.
C)people movers? they're called legs. Maybe if more people used theirs we all wouldn't live in the most bloated-belly country on the planet. A walk to either 33rd, or QP isn't all that far.
D)it'll be in under queens blvd. bridge, far from the northen blvd. box shops...
One more public transport alternate never killed anyone. Besides, LIRR has managed to rid itself of most of it's Queens stations over the years, it's nice to see a new one go in for a change.
>>> there's a lot of damn good reasons to do it, and plenty of places one might read allll about it. <<<
Why didn't you point us to any of them? Are they being kept secret? Has Tony Blair seen them and certified them? :-)
Tom
It's not a long walk from the Sunnyside yard at 41st Ave to the 2 QP stations. This will be a tremendous benefit to everyone who lives along the Astoria, Queens Blvd, or G lines who wants to get out to Long Island.
Consider the success of Metro North's Fordham station in providing Bronx residents with access to Westchester. It is a lot further from the subways than a new Sunnyside station would be.
Yee-ha. More rail access to my neighborhood (not like i'll ever use it). Its more convenient to walk 20 yards down the street and take the 7 to where im going.
On Thursday Febuary 14,2002 at approximately 6:30pm a two car train of Type 7s derailed at the Northeastern Siding. The first truck of the second car derailed at the switch, no passengers were aboard no injuries to the crew. Busses were used between Northeastern and Heath Street. Service resumed around 10:30pm.
Any idea and how the second car derailed?
There's a first... Green Line derailment that didn't involve a Breda Type-8. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
That is funny i like that one :-)
The Type 8 curse is spreading.
I was wondering how much it would cost, or if it would be possible, to build a connection between the Broadway express north of 59th street to the CPW express (which is east of the local) north of Columbus Circle. This would allow a Brighton, Broadway Express, and CPW express as one train (replacing what was the D prior to 7/01), and the length of this connection would probably be very short to build.
The B would then be the only 6th avenue-CPW connection. I guess it would then make sense to run the second Brighton train (local or express, depending on what would be the local or express) up 6th avenue probably to the 63rd street tunnel.
This is hypothetical, I'm not sure if this connection is worth building. Just throwing the idea out.
Sounds as cheap as any new tunnels can be, because the CPW express tracks are east of the local tracks, and everything is under the Park so there are no conduits to move or streets to close. So it's just extremely expensive rather than outrageously expensive.
But what's the value? You can never connect everything with everything, and the number of people uptown who desperately want to go to 7th Ave at 57th, 49th, or 42nd rather than 6th or 8th Ave must be pretty small. After all, the B/D stop at 7th and 53rd, and at 34th the BMT and 6th Ave lines meet.
Also, if the West End Line goes to the Upper west side via Broadway, do you compensate by sending all Brighton service onto 6th Ave? If so, where is that service going to terminate?
Also, the double deck layout helps alot because both express tracks are on the park side, and you could just branch right off of them without having to widen the tunnel and move tracks over to make the space.
I would keep the B on 6th avenue and send the D (or whatever you want to call it) on Broadway. As I said, I would send the Q to Queens via 63rd street/6th avenue. (1 Brighton, 1 4th avenue each on 6th and Broadway)
But then where does the B terminate if it no longer goes to CPW?
The B would continue to go to CPW, using the 53rd street connection from 6th to 8th avenue that it takes now. Only the D/Q would be affected, with the Broadway express connecting into the CPW express. The B would continue to run via 6th avenue and 53rd street to CPW.
OK, if both B and D continue to go up CPW, where does the Q terminate? It can't terminate at 57th and 7th if the express tracks continue on to CPW, and as we've discussed many times it can't go to Queens without severe cuts to the E and F.
The Q would return to 6th avenue, since the D is on Broadway. I would have it run via 63rd street and the QB express with a reduced F service. To compensate, I would extend the V to Brooklyn to compensate for the reduced F (The F could even return to 53rd street with the E and V, if its service is reduced).
This Queens service would be identical to the one I proposed for my 2004 proposed service changes, except that the Q would go to 6th avenue instead of Broadway because the D is on Broadway.
Or if the G is extended to 71st/Continental, as has been proposed, the Q could replace the V and run as a local (if this happened the F would return to 53rd street and run as an express with its current frequency, as it would not have to share tracks with the E and Q, just the E.
Maybe the Q and D should switch names. Yes, this would send the D to Queens and the Q to the Bronx, but it would keep the D on 6th avenue and the Q on Broadway.
I've always wondered what a connection between the express tracks under CPW and the 57th/6th station would mean in terms of absolute tph on 6th Av. All the switching into 5erd St. is confusing, and certainly reduces the number of trains you can push thru.
You can get any express or local to 57th St without crossing.
I wonder if the switching could be jiggled so that one set of tracks could go to Queens without switching.
I was not suggesting a connection between 6th/57th and CPW, but the closer 7th/57th station and CPW. The idea would be to allow a Broadway train to continue north onto the CPW express.
It could be very much worth building. If such a connection were built, the Wash Heights and Concourse Branches could be extended, as there would be somewhere with more capacity to send trains to. Part of the problem of outward expansion is where to put people in the centre. Broadway, as a usually less busy line may be the solution.
Can anybody identify whether this is a PATH subway car or R62A subway car?
pic here (opens in new window)
Caption for this picture reads:
"As workers view the debris field, part of a subway car is revealed buried beneath concrete and twisted steel in one of the underground tunnels below the site of the World Trade Center disaster, Monday, Feb.15, 2002, as cleanup and recovery work continues in New York. (AP Photo/ Louis Lanzano)"
PATH car. An empty PATH train was in the WTC station when the towers collapsed. No NYCTA subway trains were at Cortland when the towers came down (or else I'm sure we would have already heard about it here).
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's a PATH car, which the station is pretty deep.
PATH PA-1 Car.
Here's a question I'm sure one of the TWU members could address.
Does the recent requirement of m/m and c/r wearing a safety
vest change workplace conditions in a manner that would have to
be negotiated with the union? If the vests are uncomfortable and
affect vision for the m/m, wouldn't the union have an issue with it?
I doubt it. You can easily argue that requiring workers to wear a vest is the same as requiring that workers wear a uniform, which is already part of the working conditions.
Not really here. There is a uniform committee on the books which OKs any changes to uniform conditions and standards. Recently, RTO/TWU refused to accept work shoes as part of our uniform standards. In part, the budget of $137,000 of which was thrown at us from the Chief Transportation Office may be considered a sidebar agreement which may detract from the overall value of our next contract. Also, the division chairmen decided that enough was enough as far as discipline, so they didn't want more people sent home if they didn't wear the uniform. A NYCT safety vest is a part of safety equipment, not part of the uniform code. Maybe it is for Traffic Enforcement Officers but Motormen and Conductors worked in the hole for decades without them. As the bulletin states, it is to identify us. Thats why we wear uniforms.
What is the deepest station in the world? How deep is it in term of feet? Portland MAX being the second.
How deep is Portland MAX, and why did they build it that deep?
"How deep is Portland MAX"
To quote the Tri-Met website at
http://www.tri-met.org/max/blueline/wapkss.htm
"Washington Park Station is the only stop in the three-mile-long light rail tunnels through Portland's West Hills. At 260 feet underground, it is the deepest transit station in North America, and the second deepest in the world."
"why did they build it that deep?"
Because MAX had to go under a series of hills west of downtown Portland to reach the west side and western suburbs. But those hills are in the middle of a major park including the zoo and other attractions, so the tunnel under the hills had to have a station. Most of MAX is at ground level.
london subway or the peachtree center in atlanta ? or that station on the Q ?
Peachtree center in "only" 191 feet.
yea.
Don't think it is the London Underground. Hampstead, which at a glance is the deepest I can find, is only 181ft 3in under.
Here are some really deep ones (may not be the record breakers, though):
New York: A train, 181 St., 190 St,
New York: #1 train, 168 St., 181 St., 191 St (believe this is the deepest station in NYC).
Jersey City, PATH: Exchange Place (currently closed).
Washington DC Metro: Rosslyn (Blue & Orange Lines), Wheaton and Glenmont (Red Line).
I believe that Wheaton and/or Glenmont hold the record for the world's longest single unit esclator.
I believe that Wheaton and/or Glenmont hold the record for the world's longest single unit esclator.
The Wheaton Red Line Metro station is in Montgomery County. Wheaton's escalator is a commute in itself -- it's the second longest escalator in the world, according to Metro officials.
http://eg.washingtonpost.com/profile/795786
Hong Kong's SoHo district means "South of Hollywood Road", packed with international restaurants -- Chinese, Mexican, French, Italian, Cuban, Indian, Thai, Russian, Brazilian and Nepalese -- and served by the longest escalator in the world.
The escalator, over 800 metres long, operates from Conduit Road, Mid-Levels to Des Voeux Road and Central, carrying about 20,000 commuters a day.
http://sg.food.lycosasia.com/hknitelife.asp
Can you verify if the Hong Kong esclator is a single unit (ie a single belt of stairs 800m long in each direction) or made of several units. In my albeit outdated 1998 guiness book such a distinction was made with the Wheaton one being one record holder and some esclator in Asia being the other. I do not have my book with me as I would check it myself.
What about Dallas (DART) ? There is one station that has an escalator that I was told is the longest in the US.
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't forget the Red Line's Forest Glen Station. So deep, as many have said, that an escalator/stairway to the mezzanine level was unthinkable, instead it connects to the platform via six high-speed elevators. And it's a good idea, too; 21 stories is too far to walk or ride some slow-moving escalator (though the sight of an escalator spanning such height would be astounding)
I keep finding that St Petersburg has the deepest subway, bot no exact depth. Portland is 260 ft deep.
Rob- speaking of long escaaltors, what is the length of the 9 story CNN center escalator used by tour groups. In a previous trip to Atlanta I toured CNN and they claimed it weas the longest.
Searching for it, I find that it is 160 feet long. It's the longest freestanding escalator, meaning that nothing is supporting it from underneath. Like a mall escalator.
What proportion of the cars required for #2 service is now R-142?
Wasn't there some policy of not having 68s and 68As mixed in the same revenue train consist? Had such a beast on the N(ancy) Friday- braking was "interesting".
eGGman
To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that says that R-68 and R-68A not being able to run together. They do run together in drags and yard moves. There is an unofficial policy not to mix cars with different airbrake systems, in this case WABCO and NYAB. However, while pitkin has only WABCO R-32s and Coney Island has only NYAB R-32s, Jamaica Shop has both and they run together in service every day. "Interesting" braking was more perception than reality (or at least not related to the mix of cars).
"Interesting" braking is what we had in the A Div, when the cars on the 3 were being E-CAMed. You would get 9 cars with all sorts of possible combinations of E-CAM and not. People with 20+ years were suddenly overrunning stations because the train couldn't decide when to apply the brakes.
E-Can & non-E-cam were run together on the D line with no problem during the SMS. As far as the T/O is concerned, he calls for a brake. Each individual car gives the brake as demanded as apneumatic brake or a dynamic brake equivalent. The operator should feel no difference.
>>>The operator should feel no difference. <<<
The operative word being SHOULD,
Peace,
ANDEE
We were told that repeatedly; however...
We were being given trains with a non-E-cam at each operating end and seven E-cams in the middle. This gave us two cars braking as demanded and the rest waiting 3 seconds before doing so. You would feel the train not braking as usual, take more brake, suddenly have more than you needed, release it and never be able to get it back. Result - T/Os who hadn't overrun a station in years putting anywhere between a half and two cars out the station. It took weeks to puzzle out, because no one told us that the braking/propulsion package was being changed.
I've heard rumors, but each time I've tried to duplicate the condition, I was not been able to. As any of the T/O s on the Delta can verify, I'm frequently out on the road and always willing to follow up. We did find a short delay in the initial power request. T/O's were complaining about the trains 'rolling back' at Stillwell Ave. A change to the E-Prom fixed that one. Now that all R-68s are E-cam equipped, I guess we'll never know.
The R44s do that too. After the first attempt at power after a brake pipe recharge, there is a several second delay, which goes away after the first station stop or second attempt at power. Do the R68s still have forced coast relays?
If you are referring to the FFR (Field forcing relay), no they don't. That was one of the e-cam improvements. The FFR was needed to pull in the J/BDC to control coast current on the older Westinghouse packages. That function is now part of the E-cam logic circuitry.
What exactly is E-CAM?
- Lyle Goldman
R142s with different braking revisions are not to run outside of the yard either. On my last brake inspection I found mixed Tread Brake Units in the same cars. All trainsets and portions should be 'run compatible.' CI Peter
Pre-SMS wasn't there a restriction because of the poor quality
self-lapper contacts on the NYAB brake stands, or am I thinking
of a different car class?
They have also had R-42's mixed up with R-40M's for quite a while now. How "interesting" must that be?
- Lyle Goldman
The R68s have a faster release and application time and rates than their WABCO counterparts. This hurts braking below 10 MPH when dynamic fades out, no matter which end of the train you are operating from. While the first four Wabco cars are applying, the Nyabs are already applies, creating bucking in the middle, and a delay in the actual desired SAP equalizing through the train (fluctuating SAP) Perhaps Mark W can attest, these trains are better off left in the yard.
Well, pre July 2001, there would be occassional 4 car R68's together with 4 car R68A's, mostly on the N, one or two on the B.
When the WillyB Bridge was closed, there were R32's coupled with R42's. Now that was interesting...I would see the R42's lead the way, then two pairs of R32's, then R42's to finish...
It's really a shame I didn't have a chance to take pictures because the WillyB bridge reopened ahead of schedule...
In the smorgasbord train days, a typical D train would have two or four R-32s on the north end and R-42s in the middle. Drove me nuts. I don't know how many times I found myself wondering why they couldn't run solid trains of R-32s the way they did previously.
Can anybody tell how the R-160 would look like or if your have a picture of it please post a link. And when the R-160 comes in will it replace all the R-38's on the A?
1. There are no pictures at this point. The contract is out for bid/negotiation, so there's no builder(s) yet.
2. The R-38s are scheduled to be replaced by the R-160s. Whether they'll go on the A, or something will be moved over to replace the R-38s on that line, has not been determined at this point.
David
Here's what the Kawasaki representative told me when I asked about the R-160, he told me the R-160 is gonna be basically an exact carbon copy of the R-143, same exact design, car length and width, headlight/tailight placement, and ANNOYING AUTOMATED ANNOUCEMENTS!! (This is what customers have told me!!) The R-160 is due to replace (this is what I heard) the R-38, 40 (slant and modified), 42, even some R-44's (I believe the oldest of the 44s)
That's speculation since Kawasaki has not yet even bid on the contract. Historically, Kawasaki has not bid on contracts as large as the R-160 contract. In addition, Kawasaki is planning to move out west, making the NYCT contract less desirable or likely unless they retain the yonkers facility.
Besides Bombardier, who besides Kawasaki would bid on the R160 contract? Westinghouse? I thought they dropped out of the railcar business.
Maybe Siemens, they are building cars for the MBTA right now. There's that other railcompany in Italy, but I wouldn't award a contract to them! -Nick
MARTA's Breda cars went into revenue service less than a year after recieving them, so Breda DOES know how to make subway cars.
This could be true...I do like the cars they build for DC Metro. So just keep Breda away from light rail then? -Nick
Maybe becuase it was their first venture into low-floor tech. I believe the MUNI Bredas are decent. I liked riding them.
I've seen those cars on a trip out there, but never got to ride them. They looked decent. -Nick
Siemens would be a good choice; they build both signal systems and train cars...
They've built up a lotta LRT cars for places like Salt Lake, Dallas, Calgary, Edmonton, San Diego, Portland...the list goes on and on.
So Siemens would be a pretty good choice.
-J!
Westinghouse is now Bombardier. There are many other rail manufacturers out there: Breda, Cobresa, Mafersa, CAF, Alstom, Matra, and maybe a couple others
What about that company (Kinki-Sharyo. I believe) that makes cars for HBLR and NCSS?
Peace,
ANDEE
Or what about Metro-Cammel, the English company? They built trains for both the Kowloon Canton Railway and the Subway in Hong Kong.
They got taken over by Alstom, I think.
Seems like there are several others who have said what I would have to answer your question. Keep in mind that Big Business, like nature, hates a vacuum. Someone will step up to the plate. (Forgive the mixed metaphore)
Didn't SuperSteel have an Amtrak contract they defaulted on? SuperSteel and Mitsubishi may collaberate on a propulsion system contract for the 'next generation of subway cars.' Maybe by that time I'll be a TrainDude too. CI Peter
a TrainDude - not THE TRAIN DUDE
He's afraid of copyright infringement. Motts is already into him for his current handle. :)
Yeah but he'll likely never work for Motts. Need I say more?
Heh. Then it's plain old sucking up. :)
Amen my friend...and I will always be OnTheJuice with the Lords Graces.
What about Spain's CAF? They're building Pittsburgh's new LRV's from a plant in upstate New York. I think it's the old Adtranz plant, the one that built Philadelphia's Market-Frankford El M4 cars.
Maybe he knows something we don't!! I can't speculate on that. We'll see what happens when the contract is awarded and who it's awarded to.
"same exact design, car length and width, "
What's gonna run on the Eastern Division, then?
The R-143 woill probably run in Eastern Division
Since the R-160 contract is still out for bid I doubt it would be the same design as the R-143. Though Kawasaki would seem to be the company that makes the units with the sucess of the R62, R68, R142 and R143 so don't be suprised if Kawasaki wins the contract.
>>>>...R68...R142...<<<
UMMM, you mean R68A and R142A.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well I would take the word of someone who works at the company and has a better idea and knowledge of how the R-160 is gonna look and what it's gonna have. I only stated what I was informed of by the Kawasaki rep on the R-143 trip.
>>Well I would take the word of someone who works at the company and has a better idea and knowledge of how the R-160 is gonna look and what it's gonna have<<
You forgot two key things
-Since no one was awarded the contract that would still be considered a rumor.
-Like people the designs are most likely going to change. So today's P143 look alike could resemble the R62 when it comes out.
I'm not doubting you but these things can prove if you're right or wrong. And I wasn't here when you gave the R143 prediction.
The Announcements are far as the R142's go are VERY ANNOYING and long. The announcements even go over the 10 Seconds. But what can you do supervison wants the full announcement played even if it does make you late.
Heh. Funny how that works, eh? No longer is it "beat the clock," it's "beat the Bloomberg" ... then again, B division rules the world ... and if the IRT gets slowed down a bit, then the numbers over yonder improve. Heh. Face it Flounder, the game is rigged ... and not in your favor. And yeah, always willing to be a BAD influence ... you're the MODEL conductor, bro ... somebody's gotta corrupt yer morals. :)
The announcements are pretty much the same on the R-143, which does means they are equally as annoying. Supervision (the "geniuses") should plan scheduling less tight so us,the HUMAN conductors, can do the proper announcements they want us to do, and not have tight scheduling force most of us to do very fast announcements that the public finds not too easily understandable just to keep things moving and not tie up the railroad.....not have to go relying on computers with annoying announcements. I, for one, do my cycle as it's laid out in the rules (although those who know me here know mine stand out, and lots of times throw the blue book out the window), and yet still get down the road on time
Hey, at least they announce the station name and transfers before the doors open. That saves time, doesn't it? The people who write those "Blue Books" can learn a thing or two from the automated announcements.
- Lyle Goldman
The R-160s may look much like the R-143s.
#3 West End Jeff
Here's a question: What do you thin kis the best mode of transit for serving airports? As a railfan, I love it when a subway serves an airport, so I can joyride during my layovers. A light rail line is good, too, but I don't enjoy them as much as heavy subways. But from a view toward practical utility, I have to say I like the system here in my home of Philadelphia that has commuter trains serving the airport, just because it's easier to haul luggage on the big trains.
What does everyone else think, especially in light of the new airport rain projects coming together in the NYC area?
Mark
Thanks, Michalovic, for raising this topic. My first gut response about getting to airports is, forgodssake, do SOMEthing! A few USA airports (Philly & O'Hare jump to mind; Midway is now online, too) have had a rail link for a few years. As usual, our Euro cousins are way ahead of us with rail stuff, including to airports.
Several times, I've used the new Newark rail link that combines a short trip on NJT and the airport monorail. It's not perfect at all. Sharing luggage with thousands of homeward bound NJ commuters can be a real hassle. But anything is better than the rudeness that the Olympia bus drivers and starters had raised to a high art.
Not sure why the "Train to the Plane" that the MTA ran over the A line was such a flop. Was it the $5 surcharge? The shuttle bus to Howard Beach that often took as long as the train ride to Manhattan? Let's see if the new JFK rail link is more successful.
Extending the N to LaGuardia is so imminently sensible that I'm stunned that it didn't happen years ago. Why not?? Even now, if I HAVE to use La Guardia and I try not to, I take the N to Astoria Blvd and catch the 60 bus, rather than starting the ride on the 60 at 106th & Bway. Although billed as an 'airport' route, the 60 is used primarily as a 125th St crosstown & western Queens shopping route and is far, far too often dominated by rowdy and disruptive local teenagers. No thanks!
Not sure why the "Train to the Plane" that the MTA ran over the A line was such a flop. Was it the $5 surcharge? The shuttle bus to Howard Beach that often took as long as the train ride to Manhattan? Let's see if the new JFK rail link is more successful.
It was the bus shuttle.
As usual, our Euro cousins are way ahead of us with rail stuff, including to airports.
I love this country more than anything, but I have to commend Europe and Japan on their mass transit projects. It's really sad that we are falling behind them. We really need to get our act in gear with projects like that.
Subways are more frequent than commuter rail, so the time convinice is the subways' advantage, and MARTA has luggage areas which is a plus. Commuter rails' advantage is it most likely goes straight to downtown without stopping, plus they have luggage space like you said, but they cost more. Basically it's a tossup. And Mark, you might be interested to know that if commuter rail starts up in GA, East Point will have a stop. That way you can take MARTA to East Point and ride commuter rail to downtown during your layovers. There's also talk of making a stop at Hartsfield, too.
And speaking of Airport transit, does anyone know if Mondays and Thursdays are busy business travel days? I ask becuase on Monday mornings, MARTA is much more crowded southbound and nearly everyone in a seat has luggage with them. And on Thursday afternoons, it is the same way on the northbound.
Saturday, Tuesday and Wednesday are the slowest business travel days.
Monday morning is among the busiest. Thursday evenings are busy, but not as much as Monday AM or all day Friday.
CG
So in subways with access to airports, their ridership reflects airline ridership. That means my observations are correct.
Actually, the major subway/el/whatever transit ridership to/from airports is people who work there, not airline passengers.
Yes, it is great to be able to take the 'L' to the airport in Chicago. I've done so many times from my downtown office. On week days when I have an afternoon or early evening flight out, I take my luggage to work with me on Metra in the morning, and then take the 'L' (Blue Line to O'Hare or Orange Line to Midway, both about 1 block from my office), often faster than a taxi fighting rush hour traffic on the expressways.
-- Ed Sachs
Actually, the major subway/el/whatever transit ridership to/from airports is people who work there, not airline passengers.
True, but in Atlanta, most of the airport workers live along the South line. When riding on the south line, you can notice everyone going to the airport has airport IDs and uniforms. Riding on the North line, most of the riders heading to the airport have luggage with them.
Commuter Rail it is. Especially in the case of Philly, where the airport's growth has spawned growth in the Eastwick area, thus creating the need for a new station. Subway may handle the time concept well, but it's not spacious enough for commuters and travelers. Plus it's loud, something nobody wants after just getting off a plane.
As a resident of a Philadelphia suburb (North Wales) for many years, I was a happy camper when the R1 Airport line was opened. For $5 one could hop on the R5 train at North Wales and ride to Market East, hop off, and wait a few minutes for the R1 train to the airport. I think the fare is now $6 or $7. Still a great bargain.
It was great, as I lived within walking distance to the North Wales trains station.
Some problems, minor, but still problems. SEPTA, as a rule, doesn't have high level platforms. Hauling large pieces of luggage up the steep narrow steps of a Silverline is a chore. The transfer at MKT EAST is fine, as are all the stations at the airport. Yes, I said minor.
Secondly, in the beginning, the R1 was a segregated line, so SEPTA could program the consists for this line to be from the Silverliner III (St. Louis 1965 - ex PRR) cars. These cars have 2 & 2 seating, and plenty of room for people traveling with baggage.
Because of the SEPTA bean counters, the R1 trains have been integrated with the R2, and sometimes R3 I think. This dictates that Silverliner IV equipment, with narrow aisles and absolutely no room for bags, are the rule.
Like I said, minor issues.
Philadelphia entered the league of few major US cities when rail service to the airport began. Chicago, with CTA 'L' lines serves both Chicago airports. Cleveland was the first with its extension to Hopkins. Boston has had a rail connection for years, but the last short part of the trip one needs to transfer to a bus. Atlanta got into the act with MARTA. San Francisco may someday get there also. Of course the latest is Newark, NJ with its station on the NEC line. If I missed any US cities, I'm sure someone will correct me.
Still, these cities have an alternative to taking a high priced cab ride from the airport to the city. Where I live in Chicago, the cab fare can be $25 (the very lowest) and UP, more likely in the $35 range fare/tip. The alternative, is the CTA Blue Line to Belmont/Kimball, and transfer to the #77 Belmont bus - price $1.80. However, I've been using an another alternative the past year. I hail a cab in the neighborhood, take it the Belmont/Kimball, pay the $10 fare/tip, then hop on the Blue line to O'Hare. Still much cheaper than the all cab trip.
One wonders when the world class city of New York will ever get on the band wagon? There has been much talk lately, but has any action taken place? Will I, at age 50, be alive to see the opening?
Jim Kramer
Chicago, formally of Philadelphia
Add St. Louis to the list. It has two MetroLink stations at the airport. I used it on my trip there last year and had no complaints.
Mark
You'll see one service open late this year, the next in spring of 2003. The ribbon-cutting may be web-broadcast.
Washington, of course, where the Metro serves National Airport at the station of the same name -- luckily, AFAIK, the renaming error at the airport has still not been perpetrated on the Metro station.
Metro service to the airport began in 1977.
Regards,
Tim
I think I agree that commuter rail makes it easiest to haul luggage. I think light rail is a good option also. In NY, those are a little harder because it is hard to aquire the ROW in a dense population area, like around LAG. Unless there is a good route to send Kennedy's Airtrain to LAG, in this case, the subway N train is the best extension, however, because subways are generally slower, it is the least desirable mode.
Birmingham International Airport in the UK is good fun. It has its own station on the West Coast (London - Glasgow) Main Line. There used to be a MagLev train from the station to the Main Terminal, but it being England, it broke down and they now run an awful shuttle bus. However, you still get the good mix of buses (both local and long distance), commuter rail and national rail all on a compact site.
London Heathrow has the advantage of being on the Underground. It is a lethargic but nice ride through Hounslow. If you want to get to the city at all quickly there is an express to Paddington Station, but they charge a massive fare on that. Ouch. And don't get me started on London Gatwick (middle of nowhere the wrong side of London with an even more expensive train).
I'd say Birmingham would be the best if the MagLev ever got repaired and if Birmingham got a proper Subway!
There used to be a MagLev train from the station to the Main Terminal
Is there any country where there is MagLev trains running, or where they are being planned or developed? I've seen the concept on TV a few times and it looks like a good mode of transportation for the future, with speed, and less wear & tear on infastructure, and a pretty smooth ride.
I think the problem was that Birmingham was just about the only one, so whereas the parts didn't wear much, once they'd worn out after 30 years or so, they couldn't get replacements.
Too much Star Trek...MagLev is good but so impractical to retrofit. Now gimme back my BRENgun thankyouverrrrymuch. Redbirds need some ventilation. CI Peter
Now gimme back my BRENgun thankyouverrrrymuch.
You just reminded me of a song Noel Coward wrote during WWII...
Could you please oblige use with a Bren gun?
Or failing that a hand grenade would do.
We've got some ammunition in a rather damp condition
and Major Huss has an arquebus that was used at Waterloo...
James: Have any unemployed Ghurkas looking for wor as Car Inspectors? CI Peter
Germany has one operating, IIRC. They are proposing a line connecting Baltimore with DC, and possibly up to Philly and NYC. But so far the Balto-DC proposal is being taken very seriously, and there is info on the Maryland MTA site.
LA to Las Vegas would make more sense.
Nah, get the one at Birmingham International Airport working again and then you'll all have to come and ride it and then go down the pub for a pint!
CMIIW, but I don't think the German one is operating any more. If you are referring to the test line that was operating in central Berlin, then it definitely is out of service and has been taken down for redevelopment in the area.
Regards,
Tim
'Birmingham International Airport in the UK is good fun. It has its own station on the West Coast (London - Glasgow) Main Line.'
Actually not quite on the main line -- that goes direct from Rugby to Stafford missing out Birmingham. But it has lots of trains anyway. The station serves the Ntional Exhibition Centre as wqell as the airport, a piece of really good planning, since the two sources of traffic enabled them to justify a large station with good facitilies.
'There used to be a MagLev train from the station to the Main Terminal, but it being England, it broke down and they now run an awful shuttle bus.'
True, but is it only in England that public transport is bedevilled by high-tech that doesn't work? I seem to remember a problem with LRVs built by Boeing...... (8-)
'London Heathrow has the advantage of being on the Underground. It is a lethargic but nice ride through Hounslow. If you want to get to the city at all quickly there is an express to Paddington Station, but they charge a massive fare on that. Ouch.'
Not only is it grotesquely expensive, but it dumps you at Paddington which is in the extreme northwestern corner of central London, so you probably still have to get on the Underground anyway to complete your journey. Duh.
'And don't get me started on London Gatwick (middle of nowhere the wrong side of London with an even more expensive train).'
Well, whether it is on the wrong side of London depends where you
live, or where you are going to, in London. The very expensive train is the Gatwick Express, but unlike Heathrow, Gatwick Airport ststion is on a main line not its own little branch, and it has a wide variety of train services in most directions. So you have choices other than the Gatwick Exprtess if you are on a budget.
I'd say Birmingham would be the best if the MagLev ever got repaired and if Birmingham got a proper Subway!
Actually not quite on the main line -- that goes direct from Rugby to Stafford missing out Birmingham. But it has lots of trains anyway. The station serves the Ntional Exhibition Centre as wqell as the airport, a piece of really good planning, since the two sources of traffic enabled them to justify a large station with good facitilies.
Okay, most of the trains terminate at either New Street or Wolverhampton High Level due to it being a very congested line (thank you Dr Beeching for smashing up Snow Hill and Wolverhampton Low Level), but it is officially the West Coast Main Line. The one via Lichfield TV (which, contrary to popular belief and train announcements, is short for Trent Valley not Transvestite, and happens to be neither in Lichfield nor the Trent Valley) is, surprise surprise, called the Trent Valley line. Both are slow and have very late trains which go into Eusless station in London.
Not only is it grotesquely expensive, but it dumps you at Paddington which is in the extreme northwestern corner of central London, so you probably still have to get on the Underground anyway to complete your journey. Duh.
Pad's good for me (except if I want to change onto the H&C)! One stop on the Bakerloo to Marylebone, then one of the few trains in Britain that runs on time (plus it has a coffee trolley!!!) all the way to Snow Hill, the most central station in Birmingham. However, I try to use Birmingham if I need to fly, because it's a nicer airport and I could get there on the bus if for some reason I wanted to take 2 hours via Solihull.
Well, whether it is on the wrong side of London depends where you
live, or where you are going to, in London.
So, most of Britain's population is the wrong side of the Thames from Gatwick. Plus I'm no big fan of Waterloo Station, despite being on the Bakerloo line, especially now they've demolished the North Station for that euro-mostrosity. Do any Gatwick trains get to Charing X?
However London's biggest rip-off must be the Bakerloo beyond Queens Park. Apparently the track's owned by sodding Railtrack (long may it languish in administration), so they charge you three times as much.
One stop on the Bakerloo to Marylebone
Of course, before anyone points it out, I meant 2 stops. There's the real Edgware Road in between - I mean the one where you don't have to wait 10 minutes for the driver to have a ciggy, then see 3 trains to Olympia pull out first before you continue on the H&C.
Stockholm has a new (opened 1999) high-speed, dedicated rail line connecting the Stockholm Central Station with Arlanda Airport. It reaches a top speed of 200 km/h (about 125 mph) and the ride, which I think is about 40 km (24 miles), takes 20 minutes.
I think this is an excellent way to go, although it was not cheap to build (a PPP built it and a private company operates it) and it is not cheap to ride, although it's cheaper than the Heathrow Express.
Arlanda Express
Regards,
Tim
Does anyone know if this equipment could operate over
Amtrak's Hellgate Line into Penn Station....was it ever
tried??......By could I mean "electrically"...thanks...
Probably could since Amtrak trains do it every day under the same wires. I say "probably" because some modifications to the speed control system might be necessary. In the pre-Amtrak, pre-Penn Central days, when the New Haven RR was a separate entity, some daily NY-Boston trains operated into Penn Station, where PRR GG1 locomotives took over and took the trains to Washington.
and more importantly, one of the few benefits of the forced inclusion of NH into PC was the use of GG1's thru to New Haven eliminating on engine change.
one of the few benefits of the forced inclusion of NH into PC was the use of GG1's thru to New Haven...
I heard at the time that the first GG1 to New Haven pulled a train of press and VIPs and that it's pantograph pulled down the catenary for some distance on the east side of Hell Gate bridge because nobody thought to limit the pantograph's height when it was not under wire.
Did this happen, or is it urban legend?
Yes this happened, no I don't know the exact circumstances.
i think there is a voltage change between penn sta and the hell gate bridge. unless the mu can change on the fly they can't. njt has this problem on the mid-town essex and morris trains. the mu can't change on the fly so only engine powered unit can
Its not a voltage change, its a frequency change. It goes from 60Hz on MNRR to 25Hz on Amtrak.
It is both a voltage and frequency change. Also the 3rd rail shoes would snag the LIRR 3rd rail. The old NH engines had 3rd rail shoes that could retract. Also the older MU cars had shoes that retracted.
dosn't the volt jump from 11k@25hz to 25k@60hz?
No, MNRR New Haven Line is 12kv@60Hz. I believe the Amtrak Hell Gate Line is 12kv@25Hz, just like the rest of the NEC but I might be wrong as there is a Phaze Break at GATE interlocking in Sunnyside. As the original insulator structure has been left intact we can be sure the voltage is still 12k, but Amtrak might have switched the power supply to 60Hz, makeing the switchover to 25Hz at GATE. Either way, it is just a Hz change.
Which the M-2s probbably can't negotiate, unless they can change the firing logic on the fly.
Why Amtrak is 25hz is beyond me. IIRC, the NEC is the largest remaining 25hz traction system in the world, and likely the largest 25hz electrical system in the world, period.
Why Amtrak is 25hz is beyond me. IIRC, the NEC is the largest remaining 25hz traction system in the world, and likely the largest 25hz electrical system in the world, period.
Because it still works, and the cost to change it would be too high.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Like Mr. Mouse said, the cost of conversion probably would not exceed the discounted present value of using 60Hz power. Furthermore, in todays "energy crisis" atmosphere it might be good to have a dedicated power supply that nobody else is able to tap into.
BTW, I thought SEPTA was still on 25Hz as well.
Do you know if the Hell Gate Line is under 25Hz or 60hz?
As opposed to the $50 million they blew on a new convertor? though this one's solid state, thankfully.
No more 30% conversion losses, like the old one.
Amtrak really doesn't have a dedicated source, they just have a 25Hz one. IIRC, most of the power, or at least a good chunk, is converted from 60hz, and there's a considerable loss with the PRR's acient rotary convertors. I'd hate to want to think how many megawatts have been burnt up as heat over the last 30 years. That alone would likely have paid for a good chunk of the conversion costs. Which are probbly new substations (needed anyway, by now), an signal mods (needed anyway, by now). I've yet to hear a truely convincing argument for 25hz power on the NEC, and frankly, I don't think there is one.
Septa's still on 25hz. The DVARP, in the finite wisdom, thinks Septa spending money to reduild the Silverliners into 60hz capable unis is a waste. Hello??? A good number of them already are 60hz, and 25kz/60hz capable already. I really don't understand the DVARP. They're perhaps the only advocacy group that complains about trains being too frequent, being electric, and Septa doing any system upgrades.
The Hell Gate line is 60hz, from a little past Harold.
perhaps others can correct me, but IIRC the 25hz power derives from a hydro plant on the Susquehanna either a PRR project or Phl Elect for that market. Not a good reason to forego upgrades just history. Of course it would be better to use the same 'class' of power that is the "grid" standard. As to SEPTA, the ultimate reality is that ALL NEC accessible routes need to become compatible. The use by ATK of borrowed MU's and engine powered sets for holiday rush makes the case.
The next step will be the standardization of third rail systems in the NY area. I have no emotional preference for NYC or PRR (LIRR) specs, its just time to end an obsolete rivalry based set of engineering decisions. MTA and CDOT should be able to get better pricing if cars can run on any MTA trackage. The GCT/IRR project would be saner if everything could go everywhere.
The next step will be the standardization of third rail systems in the NY area. I have no emotional preference for NYC or PRR (LIRR) specs, its just time to end an obsolete rivalry based set of engineering decisions.
There is no need for a standard 3rd rail system. The FL-9's have had a bi-positional shoe since they were built in 1959.
Last I heard, Amtrak got a good chunk of its power from a dedicated 25Hz turbine at the Safe Harbour Dam. The reason the A&S branch has been left intact is because Amtrak needs it as a power RoW. Maybe the dam just serves the Harrisburg Line. Anyway, did you know the the Harrisburg Line still uses the old PRR Power Dispatching office in the Harrisburg Station? That's so cool.
Okay, if the New Haven third rail shoes would tear up the LIRR third rail....how did they run FL-9's (in the 1960's) into Penn Station?? I've seent hem there on plenty of occasions.
Did they just run them through the East River tunnels on diesel and fumigate the place, or what?
The FL9's had reversable 3rd rail shoes that could run on either the NY Central underunning 3rd rail, or the LIRR overrunning 3rd rail.
"The FL9's had reversable 3rd rail shoes that could run on either the NY Central underunning 3rd rail, or the LIRR overrunning 3rd rail."
They mut have had pantographs in addition, since there's no third rail on the New Haven Line east of Mt Vernon.
They mut have had pantographs in addition, since there's no third rail on the New Haven Line east of Mt Vernon.
That's when they switched to diesel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
East of Mount Vernon, they ran on their diesel engines.
I saw a picture in a train book of M-N (then Penn Central) New Haven MU's running through Astoria after coming off the Hell Gate Bridge sometime in the '70s. Intersting, too bad I can't remember the name of the book.
So if I understand all the responses, MN New Haven Line equipment running to Penn would have to be able to:
- Use catenary power at 2 different frequencies.
- Use Metro North 3rd rail if you want it to be able to also run into GCT sometimes.
- Have retractable 3rd rail shoes if it had them at all, so that it doesn't get snagged on LIRR 3rd rail.
Is that correct?
So if I understand all the responses, MN New Haven Line equipment running to Penn would have to be able to:
- Use catenary power at 2 different frequencies.
- Use Metro North 3rd rail if you want it to be able to also run into GCT sometimes.
Nope, use Metro North/ConnDOT catenary to run into GCT just like it does today.
- Have retractable 3rd rail shoes if it had them at all, so that it doesn't get snagged on LIRR 3rd rail.
Why would it use third rail at all? I think it's just a question of different catenary power -- which should be a solvable problem between now and 2014.
they change to third rail in the Bronx now. The operative question is how to get them into Penn. The current (no pun intended but it fits) balkanization of the suburban rail systems needs to go. The logjam at PENN could be better with throughrouting.
"they change to third rail in the Bronx now"
Actually, they change between Mt Vernon and Pelham. But as you imply, there flat out is no catenary in GCT.
well actualy there is, there are IIRC overhead sections over very complex doubleslips where third rail simply cannot be installed. But that is DC catenary not AC.
In any event I stand by my belief that whether done with "flippable" shoes or some other idea, full interoperability over the entire system. The utility of this for, among other possibilities, baseball (or other event) specials from the Hudson, NJT,AND CDot lines to Shea, regular service from the CDot line to Jamaica for connection to Air Train, and maybe shuttles from AirTrain Newark to Air Train Jamaica. Itss convenience!
"Nope, use Metro North/ConnDOT catenary to run into GCT just like it does today."
There is no catenary in GCT, only MN format 3rd rail.
I like the R-32s being run on the F line.....to me I think they are a God-send. The R-46s are crappy, with slow doors, PA that's either WAY WAY WAY too loud, or WAY WAY WAY too low, even non-existent!! R-32s provide a fast train, good doors and good PA. I would rather stand and get good operation out of an R-32 going to Stillwell, then get slow, poor operation and bad PA from an R-46 (not to mention the tendency for R-46 doors to consistently get stuck in the pockets). Keep the R-32s on the F!!!
I hate them. No foward facing seats. I wish they were on the V.
I totally agree, and so do almost all non-railfans I know. Although, while we're on the subject, neither did the R27-R30 cars in your handle.
- Lyle Goldman
The '32's rock. Those extra 8 doors really help getting people on and off during the rush.
A MAN WHO KNOWS GOOD EQUIPMENT!! :-)
A Line,
I like the R-46s. Granted, I do not work for the MTA so I never operate them, but I do like the bucket-style seating, and they get more speed than the R68s. I don't dislike the R-32; in fact I thoroughly enjoyed the railfan window last month when I went through the 63rd Street tunnel. For their age, the R-32s are in great shape and certainly can get some speed. The only thing I dislike about them are the front bulkhead signs, the dot matrix is a piece of crap. And since the E uses the R-32s, you know there are some customers who are getting on the wrong train since the E and F look so similar from the bulkhead signs....not enough people use the side rollsigns for a reference. -Nick
The R32's belong on the old BMT Southern Division - West End, Sea Beach, and Brighton, where they first broke in.
They are better than the R46's.
WAY BETTER than the 46s!! The R-32 fairs very well in the Queens Division....fast running!!
I love the R-32. Run them on the entire IND. And BMT. I will ride them anywhere. I loved getting one on the R. Loved them on the Q after 9/11. Love them on the N, A, E, and C. Now I love them on the F. And I used to adore them on the G. Only time the whole G platform is utalized is a 10 car R-32 consist.
You are probably the only C/R with that opinion. I certainly prefer a 46 over a 32 any day of the week.
And don't worry Mr. A line Conductor. That 113 job out of Far Rockaway is waiting for you.
Hey Z-Man.......you never know I might consider that one!! :-) lol. Although my North Extra AM seems to be holding empty right now!! All I need is luck on my side and I'll have it!! Besides knowing how slow you are, the R-32 is TOO FAST for you!! Slow T/Os need slow crappy equipment like the R-46!! lol j/k :-)
Yup, I do love those R46's. I may be slow & crappy (at least that's what my wife says, nyuk nyuk), but those R46's are very comfortable trains to operate. The R32's are uncomfortable trains period.
Whine whine groan groan ... heh. The 32's were a DELIGHT to work compared to the R1/9's ... the deadman on the 32's didn't require as much of a downward push and the brake handle absolutely glided on those puppies. Only reason I why I liked the old girls was my foaming background otherwise I'd have likely had the same attitude towards them as many I went through school car with. Folks were happy to trade me an R9 for a 32 ...
But yeah, the newer cars are MUCH cushier ... some I've sat in would put me to sleep in all likelihood. That didn't happen with the old girls, no matter WHAT the shift, they'd keep you awake. :)
The R-32s made the CPW express dash look easy when they first appeared on the D. They streaked effortlessly while the R-10s thundered and the oldtimers howled ass.
> That 113 job out of Far Rockaway is waiting for you.
Why? What's wrong with that one?
- Lyle Goldman
I don't Know! Both R46 and R32 are suitable for F. One thing I dislike R46 was annoying door chime.
The door chime I can live with, the "20 minutes to close" slow-crawl doors are the annoyance, along with the crap PA, which is either eardrum busting, or "hearing aid required".
Especially if the chimes are out of tune.
I always wonder, why do the R-142A's make that IIIEEE sound when the start up and leave a station or slow down and stop at a station. Is it the engine? I also have a question about the windows that face each car that are the left and right of the middle doors. Whenever I sit down, I see a gap between the window I see and the window on the outside of the car. What is it for?
The whining sound your hear is the carrier frequency from the AC- traction drive. The simple drives I work on use about 5kHz, but the R-142 ones are more complicated.
The hole in the end is the pocket for the sliding end door.
Hmm...I've heard a similar sound from the Bombardier trains on the red line in Boston. Guess that's what it is. I thought it was like an alarm to alert passengers on the platform of an approaching train.
I have another obscure question:
What is the purpose of those...ports..i guess on the side of the trains, usually underneath the windows. They have what looks like a rubber membrane covering them.
Thanks.
Hmm...I've heard a similar sound from the Bombardier trains on the red line in Boston.
He said he heard the sound from R142As. Kawasaki makes them.
Oops, sorry, read it wrong.
The first place I heard the noise it was the 01800's in Boston. Same kinda drive.
The ports on the side of the R142 are loudspeakers which the C/Rs and T/Os do not know how to operate. They will only work if activated and the doors are open. CI Peter
Speak for self - I know how to make them work.
Hey....you are intelligent and responsible. You speak English too...TSS position awaits. CI Peter
HEY....R68s make that sound too and they don't even have AC propulsion.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's a totally different sound.
yeah, its more of a AAAARRWWUUIIIIIIIEEEE (more slower)
E trains currently run about 12 trains per hour to/from Jamaica Center terminal by turning in the station. Perhaps is trains were to relay east of the station, then perhaps Jamaica Center can handle more trains per hour, theoretically. What do you subtalkers think?
No crossover to the north. Just some tails for layups.
205thSt/Norwood is laid out the way you propose, can they turn more TPH?
Is the terminal what's holding up the line, anyway?
nah i think what holds that line up is the crew changes at bedford park blvd rather than at Norwood 205th
Actually, with the fallbacks there, it's faster than many. You walk to the other end of the platform (when not relaying your own) and take the next train out ... it's actually MORE efficient to change out at BPB ...
Turning around in the station is faster becuase otherwise you would need to add time for the train to exit past the station. And it's faster for a crew to walk to the other end of the train on the platform than to go thru the end doors.
If you're in a hurry you can relay double ended, like on the G at 4ave.
The G at 4th Avenue is doubled ended? I never noticed 2 crew members on an OPTO train.
Yep its double ended.I noticed it a few times at 4th ave and once when i got off at Metropolitan Ave to transfer to the L.and i think, the operator in the back opens and closes the doors,which i think is a better idea than having one person do that and run the train.
"I never noticed 2 crew members on an OPTO train."
You've never ridden the 42nd street shuttle? :)
We were talking about the G train.
To be TA correct, you are actually asking if it would increase capacity for the trains to relay 'north' of the station. All TA trains run north and south despite their actual direction of travel.
As to you question, relaying trains north of the station would decrease capacity due to the time it takes to walk the 10 cars on the relay. Use of a 'pull' motorman would help but would not solve the problem as it still takes time to move the train onto the relay track and back again into the station.
I always notice that the portion of track after Jamaica Center on the E is always empty,they never put a train back there like they do with the J on the lower level.why is that and how far does each part go?
Because of the length and configuration of the tail tracks on the upper level, three trains can be layed up on each track and you won't see them from the station platform. Those tracks are roughly 1/2 mile long. On the lower level, the tail tracks are roughly 500 feet long.
On the E they stick 3 trains on each track.
If they ever extended it to fit 5 on each, over half the switching jobs at PA would disappear.
Damn it sucks that you cant see them from the station platform.
Interesting. I didn't fully take the time element in account. So I guess it works better to keep trains turning in the station.
Absolutely! The only thing that makes the Parsons Archer terminal somewhat inefficient is the fact that the diamond X-Over is located too far from the station. It's actually closer to Sutphin Blvd. This tends to slow terminal operation down.
Tells me that they really wanted the line to go a lot further than it ended up going - had PA been INTENDED to be a terminal, I'm sure the X would have hugged the platform. Don't mind me, too many messages about routing the last few days, I see myself getting sucked in. :)
I saw them twice on R32 F trains in the last four weeks. I would figure that the JFK Airplane sign would be taken out, as there is very little chance of that line being revived. As for the H sign, I don't know what the MTA has in store for that. It would be neat to see a full-length H route, instead of its former designation as the Rockaway Park Shuttle.
The R32's rollsigns date from their GOH (1988/89), when the H and JFK were still running.
Someone also mentioned that the blue K's may still be there also, from when they ran on 8 Ave. Perfect for the Lefferts line.
I remember i saw an H sign on a R-68 when i was on an N train once.
Wow, that would be interesting. BTW, do they ever run the R68's on at least the A line?
I dont think so.
i wanna correct what i said about your question of running the R-68 on at least the A train.I said "I dont think so" its better to simply say no.ever since the R-68's came into play they've only been on the B,D,Q,and N Trains.You can add the W to that list now.the A only consists of R-32,R-38,and R-44's.And now that i think about it,does anyone think that running the H as another line along Queens Blvd and over the 63rd street tunnel sound like a good idea?I think it could run between 179th st Jamaica and Essex St on the Nassau line using that track that leads to Nassau after Broadway-Lafayette.
>>>>It would be neat to see a full-length H route, instead of its former designation as the Rockaway Park Shuttle<<<<
I most definitely agree with you on that. Its time to bring back the H. Plus we don't need any more "S" route on the map. 2 or 3 is good enough.
Now if only the MTA would reach the same conclusion.
The post 12/16 reroutes on Queens Blvd are working out perfectly. I read in local newspapers that the straphangers campaign is studying the changes carefully to build a case to advocate changing the routes back to what they were prior to 12/16. Does anyone think they will be successful?
Everything seems ok, for 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue Riders, but for people who want to get off at Lexington Avenue and 5th Avenue Stations, its pure hell. People have to crowd on to an E train to get there quickly, or grab the slower V train. After midnight, people have to take the D to 7th Avenue to grab the E train to get acess to the stations. The changes also puts people on a crowded G train which only consists of 4 car trains. So its over crowded. It was D-day for the G line on 12/16. Those facts might spell the end of the V. You never know though once the North and South Sides of the Manny B are open, you might see the Q go to 179 Street as well.
Or the V and the F will switch river tunnels. But that would bring back some of the problems the V was intended to address in the first place.
If the V is sent to the 63rd St. tube, then it leaves the stations there underutilized, especially during nights and weekends when the V doesn't run. You can make the case that not too many people use that line in comparison to the 53rd St tube, but you have to remember that the MTA had an objetive in mind when investing billions of dollars to extend that tunnel just under a mile. Such a move would not justify the cost of the line. So in other words: that tunnel (63rd) is going to get used to its fullest one way or another. And Queens riders are going to have to like it.
If E trains are too crowded, the TA has the simple option of reducing Fs to 12 tph and raising Es to 18 but leaving everything else the same.
"If E trains are too crowded, the TA has the simple option of reducing Fs to 12 tph and raising Es to 18 but leaving everything else the same."
This is what I suggested earlier. The E is carrying former F line riders, therefore, it is enduring twice the capacity. Like you stated, this is the only solution to the problem. Running more E trains reduce crowding.. SIMPLE AS THAT!
N Broadway Line
When enough 143's come in, they should be able to shuffle the cars to relengthen the G. The remaining 32's in CI will probably be sent over, and then the 40m's will go somewhere. Who knows, perhaps the C, and send more 32's over to Jamaica. I don't know if they might then decide to go forth with putting the 68's on the G, but then it would still have to be 4 or 8 cars. So what they should do is send the 32's over and put the 2 car 46's back on the G to restore the 6 car trains.
The 4 car setup is horrible. Not pnly the crowds, but also people having to run hundreds of feet down the platform at almost every station.
Personally, I believe the Straphangers Campaign doesn't have a legitimate case here. But they are entitled to voice their opinions.
One wonders what they will propose instead. You have more tunnel capacity than previously. How can it be used better? The only substantively different idea is running the V through 63rd St, and there has been widespread agreement here that that would make for an empty V train.
I agree with you. Running the V through 63rd will not allow the appropriate redistribution of passengers.
The basic problem is this: You offer people an improvement, but you also give them a choice. Choose A (pluses and minuses); choose B (pluses and minuses). New York whiners are like toddlers - they want everything now, have nothing constructive to say and blame everyone else for their irritation.
I hope they don't. The service pattern is fine the way it is now, maybe not perfect, but fine.
I work for Transport Department (Technical University in Warsaw, Poland). I’m also a tramway fan. I'm looking for information about use of sandboxes in streetcars and light rail systems in different countries. Do you know if following topics are available (preferably at Internet):
- any legal regulations relating use of sandboxes in streetcars or light rail rolling stock,
- any researches on use and efficiency of sandboxes (especially prevention from sliding when braking),
- what is the practice in US - do you use sandboxes in your rolling stock and why (or why not)?
The only document I’ve found till now is on APTA webside about sandboxes in new tramcars in Sydney...
Thank you in advance
Christoph Mrozicki
>>> do you use sandboxes in your rolling stock and why <<<
The Los Angeles light rail vehicles do carry sand. Presumably it is for assistance in braking in slippery conditions. I do not know if it is computer controlled or must be dumped by the operator. Since we virtually never have ice, and rarely have rain, it is not used much, but the sand boxes are under seats with a narrow vertical window to check the sand level.
Tom
NYCTA Loco have sandboxes on them, they are used for pore trackion. I had to use them climeing out of the river tube on the F line. The rails were all new CWR and they were rusted over. The wheels keep lossing trackion so I put down the sand.
Robert
In Toronto (Canada), the streetcars have had sandboxes going back at least as far as 1921 and probably farther. They are useful in fall when there are leaves on the tracks or whenever it has been raining and the tracks are slick or in winter when ice can form on the rails (the expression 'black rail' describes this situation). When these circumstances arise it's very easy for wheels to lock and slide and track brakes (PCC equipment and newer) aren't very helpful because they go down but slide along the top of the rail rather than grabbing the surface and slowing down the car. Dropping sand in those conditions helps prevent those braking problems from arising. On PCCs and LRVs the sand is dropped by pusshing a button on the driver's console labeled "Sanders" or "Sand". Also on PCCs and LRVs, the sand will automatically be dropped during emergency braking.
-Robert King
Thanks a lot!
I know (or better say - I feel) that sanding helps when braking, especially on icy, wet etc. rails - I've seen this in some European cities.
I try to organise some researches on efficiency of sanding. There were some in early 1970. and these showed that it _didn't_ help, especially when using track brakes (influence of gap between brake beam and rail caused by sand). So I need to find some more strong arguments for sanding than just feeling, like mentioned before - results of researches in other countries, legal regulations etc.
We have in Warsaw tramcars based on your PCCs (app. half of our fleet). The sandboxes were removed from the older ones and not mounted in the newer - because of results of 1970. tests.
Christoph Mrozicki
You might want to read this article from Philadelphia, http://www.phillytrolley.org/weaklink.html, where the poor condition of their streetcars in the late 1970s and early 1980s is discussed, including the necessity of having working sanders to ensure that braking is effective. At the time the article was written, functional sanders weren't required in Philadelphia. I don't know if that has been changed and I don't know what the TTC's policy for sanders is, if they have one although I suspect they do since they continually replenish the sand storage boxes found in loops and subway stations.
-Robert King
>>> I try to organise some researches on efficiency of sanding. There were some in early 1970. and these showed that it _didn't_ help, especially when using track brakes <<<
That seems counter intuitive. Can you point us toward any of those studies which showed sanding to be ineffectual?
Tom
No, that's basically correct. Sanding improves the coefficient
of static friction (adhesion) between the rail and the wheel,
preventing slip and slide during motoring and braking. Since
tread, drum or dynamic brakes retard the car by exerting torque
through the wheels, the limiting rate of deceleration is the
% adhesion. At nominal 25% (meaning that braking force equal to
25% of the weight of the car can be exerted before slipping) this
means 8 ft/s/s, or about 5 MPH/s.
Track brakes work on kinetic (sliding) friction between the rail
and the track brake shoe. The amount of normal force is independent
of the car weight and the contact area is much greater than that
of the wheel. The track brake tends to bite through surface oil and
moisture.
The track brake brings PCC brake rates up to at least 9 MPH/s. The
use of sand does not materially improve the track brake's
effectiveness because the force limit is not due to static friction.
The track brake will achieve nearly 100% of design rate under almost
all circumstances. However, these studies found that improper
maintenance of the track brakes was rendering them impotent. In
particular, the portion that rubs against the rail was allowed
to wear away and the height at which the track magnets were suspended
above the rail was allowed to drift to the high side.
Wow! Thats something I'm looking for!!! Can you give me please some clues about the source of these numbers? Unfortunatelly it's not enough to write "SubTalk on Nycsubway webside"... Thank you!
Christoph Mrozicki
Try contacting SEPTA for a copy of some studies done in 1972
on the rehab of their PCC streetcars.
I have just received the MTH Toy Fair Catalog in the mail, and the R-36 Subway Set, and the MTA Subway Work Train are both pictured in color on pp 40 & 41.
Both sets look pretty good except for the long shank couplers. The yellow R-21 in the work train set will obviously be the favorite car.
I assume that MTH will also provide the short-shank couplers with the set as they did with the redbirds. I've heard that the couplers used on the MTH Madison cars are a good compromise so the trains look better and can still operate on O-32 and over prototype X-Overs.
I wonder if MTH will supply enough of the short shank couplers with the R-36 set. IIRC they only included four instead of six with the R-21's.
I'm not familiar with the MTH Madison cars, but I have a feeling that it must be an operating coupler. Did you ever get to the point to try the dummy coupler on the R-21 on 031 curves? I'll bet it wouldn't work, would it?
I did the entire R-21 train with the short-shank couplers. It looked absolutely perfect on my layout. 2 problems did come up, though. While crossing the O-42 X-Overs in my main junction, the pantograph gates would hit each other. The other, on my layout there are 2 curves that briefly tighten to O-32. On one of them, the pantographs actually tangled with each other pulling both cars off the tracks. I've since went back to using the short-shank couplers on the #2 end only on the redbirds. On the R-42s, there is no such problem since the cars do not have pantograph gates.
I'm hoping that the couplers from the madison cars will be a suitable compromise. In addition to the better look, it would be desirable to have operating couplers.
I was taking the Hudson Line home yesterday and paased the 207 Street Yard. They were loading Redbirds unto a barge. When the R-29's the first Redbirds arrived in New York on March 28,1962 they arrived by barge. Tugboats blew their whistles and they were given the traditional fireboat escort. New York knew it had a good thing. The R-29's and their close kin the R-33's and R-36's together with the adopted Redbirds,the R-26's and R-28 formed the nucleus of a powerful fleet that kept the IRT running throughout the long years of municipal neglect. There is a sort of poetic justice in this since the Redbirds will continue to perform a useful function for generations to come. They are returning to the sea from whence they came.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How poetic... The Redbirds will forever remain in my mind and spirit!
Forever & Ever
.................Brings a tear to the eye..............
'Brings a tear to the eye' CUZ the filthy undercar dirt gets into every body orifice and wiping just smears the grease. CI Peter
Wouldn't the WF R33's & R36's also be considered adopted Redbirds. I still love the original paintjob. Best anything the IRT ever had..........
"I still love the original paintjob"
yep ! sure looks better than any r-142 !!
So carbody guy has yellow stain on R142 doors that won't come off with 'ToughGuy.' So he gets a piece of emery cloth and buffs it out in a circular motion. TA needs DeLorean. CI Peter
i remember that car... stainless steel body ...right ??
Stainless steel that minor bumps could be corrected with emery cloth. Don't like the hue...emery cloth the whole carbody. Just remember to use coarse cloth in the current grain direction. What TA CTAs use is a pad sander with crocus cloth or 3M abrasive weave...the CI did a whirl about on the stain producing a bullseye. A DeLorean would've looked like a Circus buggy. CI Peter
it was the first stainless body i have ever seen
R-16: You make a valid point there. They were of course the Bluebirds that ran on the #7. Nevertheless the Redbirds came first and their siblings on the Flushing siblings on the Flushing were merely Redbirds of a different color. The R-26's and R-28's good cars that they were carried the then sandard "olive drab" for a paint scheme.
The Redbirds and the Bluebirds were something new a dramatic in the subway world in the 1960's. Probably nothing that noteworthy had occured since the original Bluebirds of 1938-40.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
So, which lines will get the new LIRR cars? Which lines SHOULD get them?
I ride the LIRR regularly but only the PW branch so I don't know the condition of the cars on other lines...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The LIRR isn't like the TA where certain car types are assigned to a line. A Babylon train comes into Penn may go out as a Huntington train. Or a Long Beach train may go out as a Ronkonkoma train.
Meanwhile in Brooklyn the same with a Hempstead train goin out as a Far Rockaway train. Or sometimes they come in and go out on the same line.
As far as the M-7's go, they might debut on a Babylon or Huntington run, that's my opinion.
Bill "Newkirk"
The LIRR isn't like the TA where certain car types are assigned to a line.
Was that true years ago also, that the TA kept the same class of cars on the same route. For example years ago, would they send an M train down Brighton to Coney Island one day, send it to the yard at night, then the next morning maybe send it as an N train on the Sea Beach. It seems that most of the routes used to be on some older trains' rollsigns.
Certain lines based in the same yard do that, provided the lines can share the same equipment. So a slant R-40 can come off of the N, and then be assigned to the Q, and the 68A's wander off the W to the Q and N. 46's can almost instantly be swapped between the E, F, R and V (not the G, because it uses 4 cars, but they can cut one and put half in G service.). The 32's over there also move between the E, F and R. One day a couple of weeks ago, I had an R putin, and it was a newly put together set of 32's. The front pair were signed up as F, and the others as E, and I had an hour to change every sign (as well as the drums), on top of the rest of the inspection. It was a mad rush.
Years ago, when Coney Island had 30/32/42, the M and QB were interchangeable, and some ruch hour QB's returned to Brooklyn as R's. Most 42's were fixed to certain lines (I know the R had 4500's, the D 4600's and 4700's and the M 4800's and 4900's, as the one piece rollsigns only had a few route and terminal combinations on them. But there was some mixing, as 4500's were occasionally on the D, and 40m's which were all assigned to the D, would occasionally have some pairs appear in QB or R consists. The AA/B must have shared 42's with the other lines as well, and slants with the A.
Today, the eastern div is intermixable, except for the slants. But once I was ordered to make one of these up as a J. It didn't run that day, but earlier, they would appear on the midday J shuttle to Eastern Pkwy when they were doing some work over there.
Pretty interesting. Thanks for the info.
It's funny you mention a J slant. I've only (since the rebuilds anyway) seen slants on the M and L, never seen one on the J.
Greetings! I'm an LIRR engineer and from what I've heard on the "in house" rumor mill is that,initially,the new cars will begin revenue service on the shorter branches (West Hempstead, Far Rock., Hempstead) for two reasons. 1. The M-7 cars seat less passengers than the M-1/3 cars and would therefore provide less available seating on the longer runs to Ronkonkoma & Babylon. 2. Logistical problems laying up the new cars in larger yard facilities due the fact that M-7 cars are not compatible with the rest. Smaller terminals such as W.Hempstead or Far Rockaway have limited track space and most trains (including rush hours) turn in the station. Larger yards such as Babylon would have to designate specific tracks exclusively for M-7 equipment which would be difficult.
There are plans to expand existing yards, (Babylon) and possibly extend electrification east of Ronkonkoma to provide additional yard capacity.
They'll likely be distributed among all lines. Most LIRR trainsets don't stay with a specific line like the subway. In fact, over the course of a day, the train may come in from Babylon to Penn, then do a round trip to Ronkonkoma and then head out to Port Wash. So I think we'll see them everywhere (at least everywhere in electric country).
One of the LIRR's more annoying practices is closing 2 or 3 cars in front or back on weekends. I ride the last car because my station exit is back there.
I suspect that this is done because they want to gather as many fares as possible in as few cars as possible, to spare the conductors from walking the entire train length to collect fares.
But is it more complicated than that? The trains have to reach crush level during the holiday season before the open closed cars on weekends...
www.forgotten-ny.com
That is a complaint I have also. I hate when they do that.
I agree. They make everyone stand and sit on top of each other because they are too lazy to work the whole train. It must be harder for them to collect fares too.
more good reasons for rapid transit type operation two person crew, barrier fare control or POP. One would assume mgmt has assigned cars based on load and crew to match (is it not the case that 'ticket collectors' are assigned per xcars. over a minimum crew on a say two car train?)
With a few rare exceptions (mainly Greenport-Ronk) all LIRR trains are engineer-conductor-brakeman.
The "split" of who (conductor-brakeman-collectors, if any) work how many cars is at the discretion of the conductor.
The only problem with that is that I think they would have a hard time doing a barrier controll system, especially on the more eastern stations. It may work on the Babylon branch, but that's about it.
IT's such a public relations problem for the LIRR that minimum cars open is now designated in the rules. For example, midday Babylon trains must have a minimum six open.
In this particular case, Kevin, you would do better to fill out one of those complaint forms than to mention this on SubTalk. Describe the train, time, car numbers if you know, and how many cars were open where. You will get a response.
In some cases, conductors will keep two cars closed until a certain station, if they are expecting a group, or have been told that there are special conditions. I recall once the last two were closed on a local out of Babylon because the conductor was told there would be heavy loading at Jamaica. There was, and he opened up the last two to accomodtae.
Usually done because the trains have an insufficient numbers of collectors to handle the full 10 or 12 cars. More collectors = higher costs (without higher revenue)
>> One of the LIRR's more annoying practices is closing 2 or 3 cars in front or back on weekends. <<
To a certain extent, clustering the passengers instead of letting them spread out promotes safety; while I don't like being crowded, I don't like being in a car that's 7/8 empty, either. I get more annoyed when they don't see me get on the train and never bother to walk back to collect my fare. It is embarassing to have to walk all the way to the front car and beg the conductor to collect my fare, and I hate the anxiety of waiting for the fare to be collected instead of being able to relax and enjoy the ride. This has happened to me several times on weekend trains.
"I hate the anxiety of waiting for the fare to be collected instead of being able to relax and enjoy the ride."
Once upon a time, when I lived on Long Island, (when they punched the ticket only two or three times a month), I had a clear pocket stitched to the front of my coat. I put the ticket in there, and then went to sleep and did not worry about the conductor.
Elias
I get more annoyed when they don't see me get on the train and never bother to walk back to collect my fare. It is embarassing to have to walk all the way to the front car and beg the conductor to collect my fare
Don't make the effort. If the conductors are too lax about their ticket-collection procedures to come up to you, there's no point in helping them do their jobs.
True, just sit back and enjoy the fREE ride.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've actually done that at least once on a eastbound off peak Ronkonkoma train. But it is possible to ride free if you pick up a rush hour Ronkonkoma express at Central Islip. The conductors seems to be more concerned about being in position to open the doors when the train pulls in.
>>> It is embarassing to have to walk all the way to the front car and beg the conductor to collect my fare <<<
Has anyone ever said you have an "Abraham Lincoln" complex? :-)
Tom
[". I get more annoyed when they don't see me get on the train and never bother to walk back to collect my fare. It is embarassing to have to walk all the way to the front car and beg the conductor to collect my fare,"]
You are kidding, aren't you??
I think he's kidding, why would you care if they collected the fare or not. It's up to them. If they didn't collect it, just use the ticket next time............
I would campaign on the fact that the CR bilivel Cabs have the railfan window on the door leading into the motormans cab, and that sliding shade built into it is rolled up, blocking the view.
from a Station Supervisor who had an official memo:
The R143 goes into regular service Monday 2/18/02. It will at first run from 8th ave to 1st Ave with fancy suits on board incuding Reuter and Kalikow.
I work a night lunch on the L five days and will keep you posted with car numbers.
>>>...with car numbers.<<<
I would imaginethat the first set would be 8001-8009. Don't 'cha think....
Peace,
ANDEE
That's 8101-8108. 8001-8010 are R110As.
It most likey 8109-8116, since 8101-8109 have been comptly striped down after there 30 day test. I was at Piken yard and saw it myself about two weeks ago.
Robert
I agree. Plus 8109-16 have been doing simulated runs all of last week, as Ive posted on Subtalk.
What are you talking about? No R-143 has been stripped down. 8101-8108 will be the set going into service. 8109-8116 now go to schoolcar for crew training.
Thursday evening around 7:35 PM R143's 8101 to 8108 passed me on the WillyB heading toward ENYD.
Then they are done with the upgades then. So 8101-8108 might be the one sirvice.
robert
Would this be on the L line?
>>Would this be on the L line?<<
Yes, The R-143 will be exclusively assigned to the (L) with the tail end of the order spilling over to the (M). The (L) line if you haven't heard is currently undergoing conversion to CBTC* which the R-143s are CBTC ready.
* CBTC - Communications based train control
Bill "Newkirk"
Those guys are coming out on a holiday morning (Presidents Day)?
>>Those guys are coming out on a holiday morning (Presidents Day)? <<
Oh goody, some of us, like me have the day off. The weather calls for a sunny day, unless the forecast changed since yesterday.
Bill "Newkirk"
Great! I am counting the days til some wanna be slants get sent packing to Coney.
It's actually going to be Tuesday the 19th. There will be a large media event at 14th & 8th. I don't have the scheduled time, however.
Thanks! My supervisor is allowing me to attend this event!
One question- when the L(and the M for the last of the order) is all R143 what line(s) will get the current fleet.
Thanks! My supervisor is allowing me to attend this event!
Out of title work? Just kidding. Enjoy the show.
Oooooh, my deepest apologies. Apparently you were correct and I was not. Thursday I spoke to a senior manager who distinctly told me the event was going to be Tuesday. I just heard from a friend of mine that it was, indeed, today. Sorry for the mix-up but it would appear that the manager in question also missed the event.
Of course you are forgiven my CED friend!
IS there any update planned on the Car Books to include the R142 and R143?
I did see most of the press conference including the announcement that more new cars will be ordered.
Are only the M and the L getting them? Are any going to the J (or Z)?
If the rumors are correct (media reports) then it sounds like the entire fleet will be replaced with these puppies ... EVERYTHING ... some media outlet claims 3,000 of them will be purchased. Looks like Bombardier is out of the NYCTA carbuilding business *IF* it's true.
If Bombardier gets another contract, they might build more cars once again for the NYCTA. I don't think that they are going out of the car building business yet.
#3 West End Jeff
A statement that 3000 or more 143's will be purchased (Kawasaki) pretty much is a statement of exclusion of any more Bombardiers ... but hey, it's an election year, and NYC has meatball urinalists. Hey! Free food and drugs for everybody! It's an election year!
Let's see what actually goes to bid ... if anything ...
I wonder if Bombardier would protest and make the T/A give them a share of the contract.
#3 West End Jeff
They probably could, but given the troubles lately, now would not be a time to try to assert that - the TA could turn around and disqualify Bombardier as a bidder ... the "competitive bidding" process permits only "qualified vendors" to bid and if you've got a history of screwups, you can be off that list in a flash. When I was responsible for purchase of television facilities for the state, JVC screwed us and found themselves disqualified in a heartbeat. All I had to do was show bad support, very high field failure rates and an inability to get parts on time. I was upheld in ditching them as a "qualified bidder" ... same for some dealers who did similar.
Screw the state, and the state can screw ya back.
> Screw the state, and the state can screw ya back.
Hell, they'll even screw you if you don't screw them first! (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
Moo. :)
Moo? What the hell is that supposed to mean?
- Lyle Goldman
"Moo" is an acknowledgement of socio-political realities. It's the upstate accent to "Baaaa-aaaaa" ... :)
I agree with you there. If Bombardier isn't qualified to supply the T/A with decent subway equipment and product support they can take their offer and shove it.
#3 West End Jeff
You can be disqualified and be the sole supplier at the same time, especially if you are the lone vendor that makes an essential part of NYC Subways like brakes. Catch 22 situation. CI Peter
Not in the first order of 212 cars. Only for the L and M for now.
From a credible source, I hear that the (M) will NOT get any of the new R143s that the (L) is getting...not anytime soon, not for a long time, maybe not ever!!!!!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
So where will the excess supply go? The J/Z? The C? The G (for a service boost)? They can't run anywhere else.
Hello,
One of my projects for the past week which I've had off was to sort and file a large backlog of slides that had accumulated since the summer. While I was doing this, I also sorted out the extra slides that I had set aside when I do my slide filing over the past year and a bit and I'm offering them for sale. These are pictures of the TTC (Toronto) and I've divided them into three lots by mode of transportation: Streetcar, bus and subway, so that fans of each mode can choose according to their preference. The slides themselves are original Kodachromes that I've taken and they're all acceptable or better in terms of composition and technical quality.
Subway:
27 subway + 3 heavy rail. Bloor-Danforth line shots near Kipling station with H4, H6 and T1 cars. A couple of work car shots, a train of T1s in Rosedale station, and quite a few Davisville yard shots which are notable because the yard has been emptied - all the interesting retired cars have been scrapped including the Gloucster tunnel washer cars, various retired early H cars and the next time there's going to be rolling stock stored in quantity is when the Sheppard line opens and it will all be T1s. The subway slides also include a set of slides taken inside the Davisville carhouse during the ceremony held for the delivery of the last T1 cars (5370-5371). Obviously, the T1s are shown, including an interesting view from above off the viewing gallery inside the carhouse, and a number of views of the G2 Gloucster rail grinding train which was parked inside at the time, apparantly having been brought in for a motor replacement. I was the only railfan attending the ceremony taking slides so these particular views aren't widely available at all. The three mainline rail slides are two pictures of CP shunters and a picture of a GO train being driven from a control car near Kipling station that I took while I was photographing the Bloor-Danforth line.
I'm asking for $12 for the subway slides.
Streetcar:
This is a huge lot of 134 slides which cover a substantial amount of the TTC's streetcar network. There are a couple of pictures of ad-wrapped streetcars for IBM, CHUM-FM (a Toronto radio station), and Ontario Power Generation (formerly Ontario Hydro); the IBM and OPG cars have since been unwrapped. Some slides show several streetcars that have irregularities in their paint schemes such as missing fleet numbers or TTC logos which I've noted in the labels, and one streetcar which has an extra fleet number that was put above the rear destination sign. There are also several pictures from a PCC fan trip and a dusk shot of a PCC on an earlier fan trip. Also, there is a wide selection of view from the Halton County Radial Railway taken from several locations and covering quite a wide selection of their equipment including air-electric PCC 4000 and Peter Witt 2786 which don't appear frequently and TP-11, a snowplow which was removed from service at the end of the 2001 season because its wheels are damaged badly enough to require replacement.
I'm asking $45 for the streetcar slides, which is quite a deal at 34 cents per slide.
Buses:
30 slides which break down to 22 GM New Look/Fishbowls, 1 RTS, 3 GM/MCI Classics and 4 Flyers. The locations of the slides are quite varied, especially in the case of the Fishbowls. The Fishbowl slides cover a range of high numbered buses in the 8700, 8800 and 8900 number ranges that have not had their heavy rebuild yet and buses in the 2000s that haven been rebuilt and renumbered as the high numbered ones will be when they are rebuilt. There are also several slides of the rebuilt ex-Montreal Fishbowls that the TTC has, running on 35 Jane - none of the pictures show them in the overphotographed locations of Jane Station or York University. And, there is one slide of fishbowl 8051. 8051 is one of the two 1975 GM Newlook buses the TTC still runs, the only one that is still painted in the previous grey-black-red paint scheme from the 1980s and it also has a rollsign. It is seen leaving Finch station. There's also a picture of an RTS on 100 Flemmingdon Park, a Classic in Olympics adwrap, a Classic on 6 Bay and a CLassic on 74 Mt. Pleasant. There are three Flyers on streetcar replacement service and one way up at the top of 41 Keele.
I'm asking for $12 for the bus slides.
The prices are in US dollars and I haven't factored shipping into them, but they are open to negotation. If you have any questions about the slides, prices, shipping, please feel free to email me at robaking@hotmail.com. Also, my ebay id is wobit, if you want to check my feedback rating there.
Thank you,
Robert King
Here is my new revised Overall BMT-IND Subway Plans for 2004
L Train : 14 Street – Carnarsie Local
[All time] – All stops from 14th Street/8th Ave, Manhattan, to Rockaway Pkwy/Canarsie, Brooklyn
G Train: Brooklyn – Queens Crosstown Local
[Middays / Rush Hours] – All stops LIC/Court Square, Queens, to Smith 9th Street, Brooklyn
[Evening after 9:30 PM/Nights/Weekends] – All stops, 71 Ave/ Forest Hill, Queens to Smith 9th Street, Brooklyn.
Broadway Lines
N Train:
[Midday/Rush Hours]- All Stops in Queens and Manhattan, Express Stops in Brooklyn from Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evening/Nights/]-All Stops from Astoria, Queens through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Astoria/Ditmars Blvd, Queens to 57th Street, Manhattan; express stops from 57th Street, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb, Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island.
(N run make all stops in Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan from Astoria, Queens to Coney Island, Brooklyn
Q Train:
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening] - Express Stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn and N for service to/from Manhattan. Transfer between D and N at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
R Train:
[All time except Night]- All Stops from 71 Ave/ Forest Hill, Queens; through Manahattan to 95 Street Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Tunnel).
[Nights]- All Stops from 57th Street/7th Ave Manhattan to 95 Street Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
W Train:
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM]-All stops from Astoria, Queens to 34th Street, Manahattan; Express stops from 34th Street, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge); All Stops from 36th Street to Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via N).
[Evening after 9:30 PM / Nights / Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
8th Avenue Lines
A Train: 8th Avenue Express
[All Time Except Nights]- Express Stops, Inwood/207 St, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Far Rockaway, Queens; Also serves Rockaway Park, Queens, during rush hours; other times transfer to H (Rockaway Park Shuttle) at Broad Channel, Queens.
[Nights]- All Stops in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens from 207 St Inwood, Manhattan to Far Rockaway, Queens; Transfer to C at Euclid Ave for Service to Lefferts Blvd.
C Train: 8th Avenue Local
[All time except Night] - All stops from 168 St Washington Height, Manhattan to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
[Night]- Shuttle Service between Euclid Ave, Brooklyn to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
E Train: 8th Avenue Local
[All Time Except Nights] - Express Stops in Queens and All local Stops in Manhattan, from Jamaica Center, Queens, to World Trade Center, Manhattan. Some rush hours trips to/from 179 Street/Jamaica, Queens
[Night] – All Stops from Jamaica Center, Queens to World Trade Center, Manhattan.
H Train: Rockaway Shuttle
[All Time]- Shuttle Service between Broad channel and Rockaway Park.
Rush Hour A service also serves Rockaway Park, Queens,
K Train: 8th Avenue Express
[Rush Hours]- Express Stops from Inwood/207 St, to World Trade Center, Manhattan.
6th Avenue Lines
B Train: 6th Avenue
[All time except Night] – All Stops,145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; Express stops, 59 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx
[Night] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All Stops, Coney Island/Stillwell Ave to 36 Street
D Train: 6th Avenue
[All time except Rush Hours] – Express Stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
F Train: 6th Avenue
[All time except Night] – Express stops in Queens, (71 Ave/Forest Hill and 21 Street/Queensbridge); all stops in Manhattan & Brooklyn, from 179 Street/Jamaica, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
V Train: 6th Avenue
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening] – All Stops, 71 Ave/Forest Hills, Queens to Kings Highway, Brooklyn
Nassau Street Lines
J Train: Nassau Street Express
[Midday] – All Stops in Queens, express stops in Brooklyn and Manhattan, Jamaica Center, Queens to Broad Street, Manhattan ( J bypasses stations from Myrtle Ave to Marcy Ave, Brooklyn, on trips to Manhattan (AM hrs) and to Queens (PM hrs); use M for bypassed stations.
[Rush Hours] – Same as midday service, except JZ serve alternate stations (skip-stop service), Sutphin Blvd, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
[Evenings/Weekends/Week Nights] – All Stops, Jamaica Center, Queens, through Brooklyn, to Broad Street, Manhattan.
[Weekend Nights] – All Stops, Jamaica Center, Queens, through Brooklyn, to Chamber Street, Manhattan.
M Train: Nassau Street Local
[Midday] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to 9th Ave, Brooklyn
[Rush Hours and Evening until 9:30 PM] – stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Bay Pkwy, Brooklyn.
[Evening after 9:30 PM / Nights / Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Mrytle Ave, Brooklyn. Use J for service to/from Manhattan
Z Train: Nassau Street Express
Service extended to Middays hours. other time use J.
N also runs on the Bridge in weekends.
(N run make all stops in Queens, through Manhattan and Brooklyn from Astoria, Queens to Coney Island, Brooklyn) in Weekends Nights
You've just made me and Fred very happy.............
Isn't it just a beautiful world right about now?
I very sure I just did. I Knew this will cheer up my buddy Fred
A plan that fits the needs of all. Congrats. I take my hat off to you and now go to bed a happy camper.
By putting N on the bridge you've made Fred a veerrrrrrrryyyyy happy man for the next...I dunno. He'll just be very happy.
But anyway, do you have the W running with the N, or do you have the B running with it? I'm bad at things like these...
-J!
Let say that this ideas of mine is the only way to run the system perfectly well. What I did was balancing service for each line. I think it will be a wonderful idea have an express and local service on each line. It will help eliminating commuting problem which all of us faces daily (overcrowded trains and people late for work,school because of trains arriving late or slow). Referring to your question, I think running W with N is better than running with B because in the west-end u've already have M. Since B will return to Brooklyn in couple of years and thinking of W end in Manhattan was a bad idea. I figured that placing W in Sea beach will help ease thing up in that line and N rider will have an options to get to work/school/homes in their usual or fastest ways. Also, since the northside of Manny B reopen in 2004, I think it would be nice to have 2 needs train run in one side and 2 or 3 needed train run the others. While working with this plan, I was thing about placing R in bridge and extended Z to south Brooklyn. But, I figure that it wouldn't out perfect because of a capcity in Bay Ridge R Terminal and traffic over the bridge. And u also need one Broadway local line to serve lower canal street station via tunnel.
I would instead of having your W train just increase N and R service both somewhat significantly, and have the N run as Broadway express, Manny B, 4th avenue express, Sea Beach all times. This eliminates the W (unless it becomes what I propose below) but allows far more substantial N and R service. The R would be increased by enough to be the only Broadway local and 4th avenue local, at least on Weekends.
The W could run Astoria-Whitehall as an infrequent local on Weekdays if the R is not enough as the only Broadway local during this time, even with increased service. But I'm not even convinced a W is necessary.
This is far simpler than your plan where the N runs local in Manhattan then express on 4th avenue on weekdays, then reverses that on weekends, and a W train which runs express in Manhattan and Brooklyn on weekdays (thus you would have 3 4th avenue expresses on weekdays, only 1 on weekends).
The W could run Astoria-Whitehall as an infrequent local on Weekdays if the R is not enough as the only Broadway local during this time, even with increased service. But I'm not even convinced a W is necessary.
Couldn't you just call that an R anyway? Same stops, just finishes short of the final destination.
I second the motion. And you can guess why. Nice plan.
Thanks, I was hoping ur gonna say that. I' ve dream of this plan for very long time.
Corrections:
K Train: 8th Avenue Express
[Rush Hours]- Express Stops from Inwood/207 St, to World Trade Center, Manhattan.
>>>>All time other time: Use A instead.<<<<
N Train:
[Midday/Rush Hours]- All Stops in Queens and Manhattan, Express Stops in Brooklyn from Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evening/Nights/]-All Stops from Astoria, Queens through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Astoria/Ditmars Blvd, Queens to 57th Street, Manhattan; express stops from 57th Street, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb, Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island.
(N run make all stops in Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan from Astoria, Queens to Coney Island, Brooklyn).
>>>N also runs on the Bridge in weekends.<<<<
>>>>(N run make all stops in Queens, through Manhattan and Brooklyn from Astoria, Queens to Coney Island, Brooklyn) in Weekends Nights<<<
Minor comments:
- Take a look at the Brooklyn track map. You can't turn around 10 V tph at Kings Highway. Also, can you justify 22 tph from Kings Highway (Culver) into Manhattan? Seems better to turn the V trains around at Church Ave. Also, can you justify V service to Brooklyn outside of rush hour? The Culver line would have 6 Vs an 8 Fs in mid-day. That's comparable to the Brighton line, which has far more customers.
- Lefferts deserves rush hour express service. It has far more passengers than Rockaway Park. The K should run to Lefferts rather than just to WTC.
- Can you justify doubling the weekday service on the Sea Beach Line?
- Can you justify 18 tph for the J/M/Z middays?
"- Lefferts deserves rush hour express service. It has far more passengers than Rockaway Park. The K should run to Lefferts rather than just to WTC."
It might have more passengers, but it's a much shorter trip. Therefore, a Rockwaway Express seems more logical.
Better yet, why not propose a shuttle from Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway 24 hours a day. Unfortunately, this the track b/t Gaston and Holland will have to be built to make this service happen. But I think it's much better than providing two A services here.
N Broadway Line
I know it's been talked about before, but like you said, why have all these A services. To make it even more confusing in addition to the A to Lefferts and the A to Far Rock, some rush hour A's go to Rock Park. Very simple, call the Lefferts A's, K's
Can anyone explain to me if it would be feasible for the M train to run local from Court St. to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, and then have the W (or the B in 2004) run express from Pacific Street to Bay Parkway, then local to Coney Island?
In other words:
M Train: Nassau Street Local
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening until 9:30PM]- All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Bay Parkway Brooklyn
[Evening after 9:30PM/Nights/Weekends] - All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn. Use J for service to/from Manhattan.
W Train: Broadway Express (pre-2004)
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening until 9:30PM] - All stops from Astoria, Queens to 34th Street, Manhattan. Express stops from 34th Street, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge) Express stops from 36th Street to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn PEAK DIRECTION ONLY; All stops from Bay Parkway to Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
[Evening after 9:30PM/Nights/Weekends] - All stops from Stillwell Ave to Pacific Street, Brooklyn.
-OR-
B Train: 6th Avenue (post-2004)
[All time except Night] – All Stops,145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; Express stops, 59 Street, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge)Express stops from 36th Street to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn PEAK DIRECTION ONLY. All stops from Bay Parkway to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn; Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx
[Night] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All Stops, Coney Island/Stillwell Ave to 36 Street
"Can anyone explain to me if it would be feasible for the M train to run local from Court St. to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, and then have the W (or the B in 2004) run express from Pacific Street to Bay Parkway, then local to Coney Island?"
Have you looked at the track map (http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smbklyn3.gif)?
I don't see any technical problem. The M and the B/W would have to merge onto the same track between 36th Street and 9th Ave, which makes delays more likely unless the timing is perfect.
The main problem is probably political. Now intead of 12 tph at all stops to Bay Parkway, the local stations only get 6 tph. They may protest the reduced service more loudly than the people at the express stops shout their thanks for the improved service.
although i understand the political protests, I ride the West End to 79th Street daily. I see the lack of use the M train gets. Frankly it makes no sense to have people on the W packed against the windows, i have a bench to myself on the M (no complaints about that though... =) ). I feel the W (or B in 2004) should be a true express train and passengers will be offloaded to the M which IMO needs the extra riders anyway.
The M is such a useless line, because no one hardly uses it. A better idea would be (if the B ever returns) to run the W broadway Local through the Montague Tunnel and run it to Bay Parkway as a fillin.. I'm sure it will be a more popular choice than the current M service.
N Broadway Line
also, the W/B and M merge onto the same track between 36th Street and 9th Avenue also today. The delays are not prolonged and the W always get priority at 36th anyway.
I personally think the Culver line is a better choice for express service than the West End Line.. (TOO MANY CURVES) Just an opinion.. Don't hate!
To balance things out.. Express service on the Sea Beach is out of the question... And I know many of you all know why.
N Broadway Line
To balance things out.. Express service on the Sea Beach is out of the question... And I know many of you all know why.
Oh mannnnnnn.......Fred's not gonna like that..............
You read my mind---where the Sea Beach is concerned, it takes only about three seconds. But it is free speech and he's allowed to speak his piece, even though I think his piece is a piece of barf. But he is an N man, so I forgive him. Besides, all of this is in fun, and that's the only recourse we have because we have the power to change nothing. Now my buddy Train Dude, he might be able to do something about it.
No I don't know why. Why? Why can't the Sea Beach run express in Manhattan and on 4th Avenue? It certainly can be done and the TA has the power to do it.
You missed my point... I was talking about that stretch b/t 59th Street and Coney Island.. NOT 4th Avenue or Broadway, of which I gladly welcome express service there.
N Broadway Line
Thank you sir. I'm glad we fellow N supporters cleared that one up.
Running the N express along 4th Ave. and Broadway is doable and I highly endorse it. I'd have a stroke if they kept it as a local in Manhattan via tunnel. They're referring specifically to the Sea Beach express track. Did you read this ?
When is the last time they ran express service on the West End? It seems like it would work, it would give the M more of a reason to run there.
No matter what the situation is on the West End route, the M will fail.. It is not a line that many people like riding, because it doesn't really go where people want to go..
N Broadway Line
N you're missing my point entirely.
If the B/W becomes a full express, people will HAVE to take the M at local stops, giving it a purpose to run. What will stop riders from transferring to an express? Nothing. Only now, the M will actually have ridership.
"N you're missing my point entirely.
If the B/W becomes a full express, people will HAVE to take the M at local stops, giving it a purpose to run. What will stop riders from transferring to an express? Nothing. Only now, the M will actually have ridership."
It's not that I'm missing your point, I disagree with your opinion. For instance, if they do decide to run the W into Brooklyn, it would of course be a local line along 4th Avenue with the R. At this point, the M becomes useless, because, it duplicates the more popular W line. Therefore, the best place for the M is probably Chambers Street, or maybe back on the Brighton Line with the D and Q.
N Broadway Line
Given that 80% of office space is in midtown, it makes very little sense to have more than 2 services from Dekalb through the Montague tunnel. The R should go on the N/R tracks, and one service should go onto Nassau St.
Since the Nassau St train will get reasonably full at Dekalb (from transferring passengers), it should originate as close in in Brooklyn as possible. That's probably 9th Ave. It's called the M right now and why change it?
AFAIK, there was never any regularly scheduled service on the center tracks of the West End line. Had there been from the outset, then perhaps there would be a greater differential in usage between express and local stations, as on the Brighton Line. Also, the West End line has fewer riders than the Brighton, or even the Culver. So the number of trains operating out there in rush hour is unlikely to justify the number of trains needed to have both express and local service. What I mean is if, say, 12 tph could carry the load without severe overcrowding, and that was split 6 + 6 local + express, then passengers at local stations would have to wait 10 minutes for a train, which in IMHO, is too long in rush hours. If the demand is there for 16 tph, then it seems reasonable to have both. I'm surprised that the M is considered nearly useless in the rush. It goes right to the Wall St. area, and is the only southern division train going there. Why should it be so unpopular? Is it as empty at Dekalb Av.? I would think it would be packed by the time it leaves Dekalb.
"I'm surprised that the M is considered nearly useless in the rush."
There are 4 times as many square feet of office space in midtown as in downtown. Therefore, even though it makes sense that some service from Dekalb goes to downtown (i.e., R and M even if the MB were fully open), on any given line a service to downtown will be less preferred.
The only reason people fill up the R and N is that by the time they get to Dekalb it's not worth the trouble to get into an overcrowded Q, so many people just grit their teeth and ride the whole tunnel route to midtown. But on the West End Line, you might as well choose the route that gets you where you're going, and for 80% of people that's the W.
Post 2004, it probably makes sense, if politically feasble, to cut the M back to 9th Ave and run more Bs on the West End. The M will really only fill up at Deklab where it gets the transfers from those Brighton Line passengers who actually need it.
"Post 2004, it probably makes sense, if politically feasble, to cut the M back to 9th Ave and run more Bs on the West End. The M will really only fill up at Deklab where it gets the transfers from those Brighton Line passengers who actually need it."
You may have given justification for the M to go back being a Brighton Local in 2004.
"You may have given justification for the M to go back being a Brighton Local in 2004"
But as a Brighton local it'll run 50% empty from CI to Dekalb, where 4th Ave riders will get on. The point of originating it at 9th Ave is you have the shortest trip to Dekalb and the least amount of underutilized rolling stock.
If it were feasible, the M would serve 4th Ave better if it ran to Bay Rdge, not Bay Parkway. 4th Ave local service south of 36th St is atrocious.
I have to agree, even though I don't ride the Bay Ridge line that often. I know how long you have to wait for ANY train at stations the N/R share in Manhattan. I can't even imagine waiting for JUST the R.
I've read many of ur post in response to my topic on "Overall BMT-IND Subway Plans for 2004". From what I've read, It seems to me that many of u guys have a alot to say about M line running to/from Brooklyn. Many of u guys think that M is a useless line and some of u guys think that M would be better off in some place else instead.
Therefore I'm considering in revising the plan again. With that, I your help
Let take little vote here.
1. (Agree/Disagree) Cut back M line to Manhattan or Queens during
Weekdays hours.
2. (Agree/Disagree) M should run in Brighton, Sea Beach, or Bay
Ridge instead of West End. If u chose "Agree" please specify!
3. (Agree/Disagree) M should remained as usual as it always was
Also, I'm still having a bit problem with ending K in Southern Terminal. So I need your help with this.
II. Which of the following would u consider:
A. K terminate in WTC, Manhattan
B. K terminate in Leffert Blvd, Queens.
C. K terminate in Far Rockaway, Queens.
D. K terminate in Rockaway Park, Queens.
Addition change to other service are welcome as well.
Hopefully, I can use your votes to make some changes in my "Overall BMT-IND Subway Plans for 2004" Copy that I still have in my document files. With changes, This will be perfect plan with the help from my fellow railfan helping me to put this plan togther." Remember, the change will be based on the most vote that was received here.
Thank you for your contribution
I think you're underestimating the Brighton Line. As a kid in the 1980's I used to ride the Brighton M (which was a local) at times during rush hours. That train could get VERY crowded, certainly more than 50% capacity. In my opinion, the M would be much more useful on the Brighton.
Actually, the Brighton line doesn't have a higher number of Nassau riders than does 4th Ave. In my experience, most of the Brighton riders who get off at Dekalb Ave. take the N or R. M ridership suffers south of Pacific because it's local, not because it runs on Nassau St. The M tends to fill up with N/W riders at Pacific and Q riders at Dekalb. M ridership is up post 9/11, since the N/R skips Cortland St.
M service on the Brighton line isn't justified. The capacity doesn't exist. It does on 4th Ave.
Whenever the North Side of the bridge is restored, The "W" should be a midday and rush hour service running from Astoria to Whitehall Street. It should be the Broadway Local like the R line. Meanwhile, the "N" should operate on the express tracks via the Broadway Line everyday from 5:30 AM - around 11PM in the evening.. Othertimes it should be a local - replacing the R line.
The Q should be express on broadway (Weekdays 5:30 AM - 9PM) and (Saturdays from 7AM - 8:00 PM).
N Broadway Line
I've just seen your plan,
I think your plan is a good one though perhaps a bit on the conservative side. There are a few possible flaws. Pardon me if I repeat what others said...
The K running express from 207 to WTC only helps Manhattan riders. Brooklyn and Queens riders would gain little benefit from this.
Running the local to Lefferts Blvd would be very unpopular with those on the Lefferts branch on the A. You would introduce a new transfer for many of them. Extending your K express to Lefferts would make them happy.
The Sea Beach Line just doesn't have enough riders to justify having two routes at any time of day.
You have three routes on the Culver but you have them all run local? Extending the G to Church would at least allow one of the other two routes to run express between Bergen and Church. This is where I think your plan is conservative.
All in all, I think this is a good plan.
>>>>Extending your K express to Lefferts would make them happy<<<<<.
I was thinking about that part eventually. I think that putting one local and express service to that area is a good idea.
>>>You have three routes on the Culver but you have them all run local? Extending the G to Church would at least allow one of the other two routes to run express between Bergen and Church. This is where I think your plan is conservative<<<.
That, I have to look at the track to fix this part.
Anyway, Thanks for the tips Q Exp. :)
How bad is the damage at lower Bergen on the tracks?
I've heard that an asbestos clean-up is necessary on the lower level and that a control tower needs to be fixed.
What about using the (K) for express service between 14 St., Mahattan and Far Rockaway, Queens for peak direction only during peak hours. Meaning to Manhattan during AM and to Brooklyn and Queens during the PM hours. The trains turn back at a stub center track south of 34 St. Station.
If I've remember, there is a track that used to run by H serving between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park without crossing Jamaica Bay. Someone in here mentioned that part not long ago I forget who that was. If that track is however still exist, we won't need an express train run peak direction between Far Rockway and Manhattan. Better, yet we can assigned "S" to run peak direction between Far Rockway and Rockaway Park. I still have the map dated back April 1990 shows H run peak direction in that area.
My mistake, the H uses that track during night time hours, not peak hours. The H use to make local stops between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park using that track.
Ok... First a little rant... a certain times square hotel can bite me... i check in today for 7 nights... on the phone they told me they have fast internet in the rooms for 15 a day... now it seems only one floor has it... they had no rooms, only the middle of a suite so im sleeping on a pullout for 200 a night.. grrrrrrrrrrr! and wait, the phone is 1.35 for 3 mins, 10 cents each extra minute... DOUBLE GRRR!!!
Now onto my question, how do i get to ground zero and the viewing platform? I heard you have to buy tickets or something... also when is the best time to go for smaller crowds and waiting?
Thanks,
Allen
Tickets are at South Street Seaport. From Times Square, I guess you would take the 1/2/3 south to Fulton. IIRC, the platform is on Church Street. You can walk it pretty easily, or take the 1/2/3 uptown to Park pl, that will be a little closer.
If you just want to go down there and see Ground Zero from the street. (no viewing platform), Take the E train to WTC. Get off at the front of the train. Make a left, go upstairs. You won't see much. The mounds are pretty much leveled. And shacks and wooden walls will prevent you from seeing the site itself. But if you've ever been there before, you'll realise there is nothing there. I don't mean nothing of interest. I mean the building is gone.
He asked 'how to get' there.... not your opinion.
Wouldn't he be better off knowing before he schlepped all the way down there, lighten up!
Wouldn't he be better off knowing before he schlepped all the way down there, lighten up!
Yesssssssir. You tell it as it is my man.
Nothing funny about Ground Zero.
I answered his question of "How to get there". I also gave him an idea what to expect once he gets there. Granted it is not a viewing platform. But the first thing I noticed when I looked there was nothing. As in a big building that I remember there is gone.
If you just want to go down there and see Ground Zero from the street. (no viewing platform), Take the E train to WTC. Get off at the front of the train. Make a left, go upstairs. You won't see much. The mounds are pretty much leveled. And shacks and wooden walls will prevent you from seeing the site itself. But if you've ever been there before, you'll realise there is nothing there. I don't mean nothing of interest. I mean the building is gone.
It's goes beyond just missing buildings. It is like the whole geography has changed, if that makes any sense.
You'd have to be there to get the full impact. But the realisation that something big and tall is gone. All the things you saw and read about actually happened.
Make a 1-2 punchtrip to Chambers
I rode on R 62A 2131 on the # 1 train last night to chambers on the way home I caught another R 62A # 1 train I rode car # 2144. 2145 and up are now at Corona. I had to go the ERA I just happen to notice that 2131 2135 and 2136 are all on the SAME TRAIN. not all coupled together. So something is definately up for these cars going to corona. looks like 2135-2144 are next to go to Corona. PS does anyone know for sure when the next batch of R 62As are going to Corona?
Does anyone think that with enough power Acela can reach speeds pass 150 mph?
IIRC they did in tests. Hey even the much derided original Metroliners did. (160.4 IIRC on a short stretch north (RR east) of Trenton.)
I read that the test Acela hit 168 mph somewhere in central New Jersey.
Between HAM interlocking in Hamilton Township, and MIDWAY interlocking in Monmouth Junction, No.2 and No.3 tracks.
So I guess that catenary excuse was just bullshit. FYI there is no HAM interlocking. The former interlocking, MILLHAM, was removed some years ago. HAM is an interlocking/block station on the NJT Atlantic City Line.
BTW the Metroliner's hit 164 mph on a test on the exact same stretch of track c. 1968. So in 30 years we have managed to increase the top speed of our trains by 4 mph. There's progress.
actually, I thought it was 160.4 but You are Right, several billions for 4-9 MPH. And they needed tilt for ? The real value of the project IMHO was catenary to Boston, and new equipment poorly designed/executed as it is--four inches is too small to measure. For the civilians out there the sliding doors, the tables for the workaholics the better ride are what they will pay for and even in the Capstone cars, its nice to be able to recharge one's phone.
"And they needed tilt for ?"
Don't go overboard with the criticism.
The tilt does help a great deal with passenger comfort. Remember that the Northeast Corridor has many more twists and turns than the ROW used by French TGV and Japanese Shinkansen trains. Japanese and European high-speed track is ramrod straight nearly all the way.
"overboard with the criticism"
Ron its a train not a watercraft.
Seriously if the tilt is genuinely important, the four inch glitch which limits tilt application is serious no? Y'know, to me it was only a bad money deal in context, I'm in the billions for rail not one cent for... camp.
I found it comfortable. I will repeat my criticism of the cafe service. At the fare/market level they are tryimng to lure the word is ESPRESSO! (and fresh pastries not the frozen Sara Lee crap they sold me. That stuff is okay for the hoi poloi this is not in that category. All that said, I'm glad on balance the project happened, just always seek better.
FYI: I controlled HAM as an Amtrak Train Dispatcher ever since it was remoted to '40' office in 1995. I delayed many a train there-I assure you it exists. It was originally named FAIRHAM, controlled by FAIR tower in Trenton. It was installed in the mid-80's as part of the same reconfiguration that led to the straight-railing of Millham, which lay about half a mile to the East( the tower is still there).
As for the AC line, there are no interlocking or block stations at all - just remotely controlled interlockings. There is a Hammondton psgr station, but the NJT system timetable makes no mention of HAM.
(Unless things have changed since last Spring).
I think the main obstacle to 150 MPH operation on the Pennsy is the old four aspect cab signal system, vs. the nine aspect ACSES w/ positive train stop used in New England. The catenary probably can't support SUSTAINED hi-speed running as opposed to carefully controlled tests, but then again, that same stretch of 3 trk sports new constant-tension catenary.
Finally, I couldn't agree with you more about "progress".
HAM was a block station on the PRSL Atlantic City Line, I guess NJT renamed it. It was right next to EGG which made for a rather humourous combination.
What is the milepost number of this phantom HAM interlocking on the NEC and could you give me a description of its function? I have never observed any sort of interlocking between the extended limits of FAIR and MIDWAY. Back in PRR days there was NASSAU and MILHAM, but those have long since been removed. Anyway according to the CTEC chart it is there and controled by CTEC-7 although its exact makeup elludes me. It is like a "stop and go", ie non-automatic signals w/ no interlocked turnouts that only control traffic flow? (One example of this is WALL interlocking on the Springfield Line.)
Hey, since you worked there maybe you can help answer another question I had. Do you know Amtrak's rationale for removing NASSAU interlocking and then leaving an 18 mile gap on a high traffic main line w/o a crossover? Did the removal of NASSAU coinside with the creation of HAM?
I just realized we were having a Tomaeto Tomaato problem. I was using information from Blockstation.net ( http://www.blockstation.net/A-8.html ) and it had the interlocking at MP 55.7 labeled as the extended limits of FAIR interlocking. I guess it has since been given its own name, "HAM".
Going from Flushing to GWB was a bit tricky today because the 7 train is not running between Queensboro plaza and Times Square.
The result was alot more crowding. The 7 train westbound was packed by Junction blvd, and we waited awhile before we left Main street. I'm assuming headways are longer because of the G.O.
Got off at 74th (along with half of the train) and went downstairs for the E. The E came shortly and wasn't too crowded. Really slow ride through 53rd street tubes, track workers. Got off at 7th ave/53rd and went downstairs for the D to 59th street. The D came shortly, but I had to wait (A)while for the A train. N/B D was running local because the C was running express. 2 D's came before an A showed up. An R38 and the window was available, though the speed up CPW was pretty much a joke.
At GWB/175th I got off and took the bus to the Garden State Mall.
Going back I got an R44 A train, which was pretty crowded. The ride down CPW wasn't so great either, the C local beside us at 72nd got to 59th before we did.
At 59th I got off the A and a D came in right behind. Took it one stop to 7th and 53rd, went downstairs for the E this time.
Had to wait awhile for the E which was crowded but I did get a seat. It was an R32 but the window was taken. :-(
The ride to Roosevelt ave was pretty quick, fastest train of the day.
However some kids were fooling around kicking around a mini-boombox which ate a tape. Things got worse as they threw the tape around the car so you had tape hanging like tinsel on the bars.
That and a smelly bum made me move to the back end of the car (dodging the hanging tape). In a way I had to keep myself from laughing.
I had to wait about 10 minutes for a packed 7 to Main street. Lots of door holding, the back of the train was packed, the C/R kept saying "stand clear of the doors in the back, if you cannot fit on wait for the next train".
Well that's just about it for today, I'll be riding again tomorrow because I'm going to the Chinatown parade.
I'm just glad I didn't stay on till Queensboro plaza, those N's must have been packed. At least at the IND 74/Roosevelt you can choose from many more lines.
Also all T/O's and C/R's I saw were wearing safety vests. I have to say it looks ridiculous.
What bus you got on to/from Garden State Mall?
The 171 bus.
Well that's just about it for today, I'll be riding again tomorrow because I'm going to the Chinatown parade.
Watch out for those dragon clips!
Yeah I better watch out! Some of those things are so large they'll hit me in the face in a tight crowd! Not that I mind of course :-)
Watch out for those dragon clips!
Yes, we have no choice but to fear any device that robs a woman's beautiful hair of its freedom.
>You're truly from the Bronx if you can relate to any of the following:
>
>The subway is not fun.
>
>You know some Spanish even if you never took it in school.
>
>Is it just me, or is every girl a real bitch?
>
>You've taken the Bx31.
>
>You once fell asleep on the train after midnight, and the conductor woke
>you up in Brooklyn.
>
>The Grand Concourse has too many lights.
>
>If you're from Westchester you're not really from NEW YORK.
>
>You don't go to Manhattan; you go to "the City" or "downtown."
>
>The Major Deegan sucks, so does the New England Thruway, and the West
>Side Highway costs too much, but you know them like the back of your
>hand.
>
>Your parents took you out for REAL seafood, in City Island.
>
>You've gone to at least 10 different Parish Bazaar's whether you were
>Catholic or not and whether you liked the school or not.
>
>People live in groups and you know or you can tell where each group
>lives: Italian, Black, Puerto Rican, or Dominican.
>
>There is at least one pizza place within 1 block of your house.
>
>You love your car.
>
>You curse a lot.
>
>You know the difference between going with, seeing, fooling around with,
>and going out with someone.
>
>Private beach? What's that?
>
>You know where to find alcohol at 3 AM.
>
>You've stumbled into a diner-- after 4 a.m.
>
>You have no reason to go to the South Bronx, except for Yankee games.
>
>You've driven under the train.
>
>You're appalled, but go to the Motel on Webster.
>
>You've been to Bronx Zoo at least once for every grammar school trip.
>
>There is a bar down the block and you've hung out there.
>
>There is a 24 hour store a few blocks away.
>
>You can correctly pronounce places like Long Island, but don't know how
>to get there.
>
>Your parents always talk about moving away, but you know they never
>will.
>
>When you say you live in the Bronx, people look at you like you're
>poverty stricken and you just feel the need to slap them right then and
>there.
>
>You always take the express bus and not the train home from the city at
>night.
>
>The only decent mall is in White Plains (galleria), and you're willing
>to make the trip.
>
>Your mom always talks about Alexander's that used to be on Fordham Road
>You are a drug dealer.
>
>You know you're from the Bronx when there is a Big Pun mural within 5
>miles of your house.
>
>You're on a first name basis with the Arab who runs that 24 store, and
>he even gives you a pound.
>
>You know at least 3 drug dealers in every building next to a bodega.
>
>You know where to buy loose cigarettes.
>
>You've been able to buy tobacco products since u were 15.
>
>At least one of your friends knows how to roll a Dutchmaster (duchie)
>
>You insist the Bronx has the best weed.
>
>You think a slice of pizza and a 25 cent juice is a well balanced meal.
>
>Every year when you were little around Christmas time you'd go to the
>house on Pelham pkwy.
>
>Everyone calls each other "BRO"
>
>You know all the cops at the 45th pct. by name.
>
>Everyone swears that they are related.
>
>You've spent some part of your life smoking weed and drinking on the
>corner.
>
>You know at least 3 Tony's and 4 Maria's.
>
>When you hear people calling each other outside their building instead
>of using their phones.
>
>When little Italy mean's Arthur Ave. instead of Little Italy in
>Manhattan.
>
>When u tell people from Manhattan to come visit u in the Bronx they get
>scared they're gonna get stabbed or robbed.
No lie, bro ... heh.
My wife is unamused, but says it's "mostly true, bro."
-Hank
I'm not too amused by this. Sure, about half of the stuff one the list is probably true, but its the reason why whenever I tell people where I live they think I take MN home instead of the #6 line. It also the reason why I get that sinking feeling in my gut whenever I travel far away and meet other people, especially those from the "Bible Belt," "Black Belt," or however else one calls the Deep South. It becomes a real pain in fact, particularly with my personality (which, although almost authentic NY, is not too much "Bronx" by the aforementioned definitions).
Well,,,I've lived in The Bronx for most of my life and think you should lighten up.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've heard about the Bronx during its worst days; I wouldn't have first hand knowledge about then other than distincly remembering seeing the subway car sprayed end to end with graffiti from the carriage I was in. Nowadays that's more distant when compared to the pain in the a** commute I've got to take to get to school.
The reason I take it personal is that people talk soooo much about the Arthur Avenue stretch, the Grand Concourse, the South Bronx/Mott Haven, and the neighborhoods which are mostly segregated ethnically (Riverdale, Morrisania, Woodlawn, St. Mary's Park/Hunt's Point, etc.), and thus they get the impression that people from the Bronx, no matter who they are, are so bad and tough. Then comes along someone like me, from a very large condo complex that's actually mistaken for a housing project. And I've got to spend hours, days even, having to blow up that perception.
Hey 137th Street, for what it's worth. I've been battered with a combo of criticism and propaganda to the point that I am starting to have some different ideas about the mainland borough. I used to think it was the pits but I have learned enough from Selkirk and Stef that I'm beginning to believe that there are some real classy places up your way. Of course, that will never include the Yankees but you can't have everything.
Ya know, bro? I just realized you've scr00d subtalk with that post ... lemme 'splain, bro ...
If SeaBits Fred spots this little ditty, then he's going to be able to PASS in da Bronx when he comes to vizit (sic) ... we were hoping to scare the pants off him, bring him to a corner bar, ply him with cheap beer, then off to a crack house to smoke some weed, bite some Calzone and then go to Orchard Bits to shoot some clams.
If he read that post of your'n, he'll fit in ... SHAME on you, bro! :)
Yea, I guess you're right....
Peace,
ANDEE
He's here now as I type ... watch my back! :)
LOL
>You've been able to buy tobacco products since u were 15.
You Bronx people do everything later than everyone else.
Yeah, but we tend to say our prayers in the cab at age 8. :)
rotflmao
Unfortunately, that 'laundry list' just about applies to all the boroughs in da Big Apple...
BMTman
Doug: As always you see the big picture. I think that there are good and bad things to be said about each of the five boroughs as about ever other place in the world. What does erk me is when someone from one of those "heartland" states starts preaching to us about our crime and how ungodly we are. Is there no crime in the State of Iowa? Have no murders ever been committed there? Are there no robberies or muging? If not why do they even bother to have police and judges. The reason we have ten times as much crime in New York is becaue we have ten times as many people.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Think about it though ... the reputation of "Da Bronx" and other boroughs does go a long way to keeping missionary types away from your front door. They'd rather go to Beirut. Being known as being from Da Bronx upstate keeps a LOT of people from screwing with me. There's benefits, bro ... :)
I know about 75% on the list. Since I've been living in the bronx all my life! YEAH BRONXITES!
Not bad.
I grew up in the Bronx in West Farms, Tremont-Concourse, and Concourse & 204th Streets and I've never heard anyone (in the Bronx) refer to Manhattan as "The City". Yes, we often said we're going "downtown". Now my friends who grew up in Queens always referred to Manhattan as "The City" and they were also the same ones who thought The Bronx was the most unsafe place in the world. The funny thing is that some of these people from Queens lived in South Jamaica and other areas that are clearly not the safest areas.
Wayne
Andee: There is much in what you say here and much of it is humorous and some of it is not. Every girl in The Bronx is not a bitch though those are usually the ones with the loudest mouths that attract the most attention. I married a Bronx girl 30 years ago and that was probably the smartest thing I ever did in my life. Smoking weed? Do you mean marijuana? I remember when a good part of The Bronx was open fields and we would light up the tall grassy weeds and puff on them.
The cultural diversity is one of the things that has made The Bronx great. Not to mention the religious diversity. Don't you remeber being in high school and taking off for all Christian as well as Jewish Holy Days? And what about Saint Patrick's Day when all The Bronx is Irish? (If it got you out of school you'd be Iraqi for a day)
Yes we do have a lot of pizza places but thats because we have a lot of Italians. Remember all those great Jewish delis with nice hot knishes on cold winter days. What about the Puerto Ricans. I remember the big newspaper strike in the early 60's when the only papers publishing in New York where El Diario and La Prensa. We all learned to rede Spanish then and a Puerto Rican guy with a newspaper was the most popular fellow on the subway at that time.
It has been a mainstay of American culture that the first Pilgrim off the Mayflower had something bad to say about the fellow who followed him down the plank. Every new ethnic group that has come to the US brings its own culture and history with it and for a while this seems strange to those of use who have been here longer. But I would answer you this. Show me a true American. Is he red,white,black or yellow? Is he Christian,Hebrew,Islamic or Buddhist? Does he go to church on Saturday,Sunday,Wednesday or not at all?
We have probably the greastest urban zoo in the world in The Bronx.
We have the fabulous Bronx Rivera.(Bear with me one this one guys).
The greastest sports team in history (No apologies here)
Maybe you are just a little depressed today.
My best wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Ah, but the most important thing about folks from Da Bronx (and I ENJOYED the thing Andee posted immensely) is that we have a SENSE OF HUMOR ... ya GOTTA ... so this here Bronx boy went and moved upstate and learned that Andee's description isn't anywhere near as bad as the jokes those of us who live up in diesel country have to endure ... things like this:
YOU KNOW YOU'RE FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK WHEN...
You only own three spices - salt, pepper and ketchup
You design your Halloween costumes to fit over a snowsuit
When the mosquitoes have landing lights
When you have more miles on your snowblower than your car
You have 10 favorite recipes for venison
TrueValue Hardware on any Saturday is busier than the toy stores at Christmas
You live in a house that has no front steps, yet the door is one yard above the ground
You've taken your kids trick-or-treating in a blizzard
Driving is better in the winter because the potholes get filled with snow
You think everyone from the city has an accent
You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie with only 8 buttons
You owe more money on your snowmobile than your car
The local paper covers national and international headlines on l/4 page, but requires 6 pages for sports
At least twice a year, the kitchen doubles as a meat processing plant
The most effective mosquito repellent is a shotgun
Your snowblower gets stuck on the roof
You think the start of deer hunting season is a national holiday
You head south to go to your cottage
You frequently clean grease off your barbecue so the bears won't prowl on your deck
You know which leaves make good toilet paper
The mayor greets you on the street by your first name
There is only one shopping plaza in town
The major parish fundraiser isn't bingo - its sausage making
You find -20F a little chilly
The trunk of your car doubles as a deep freezer
You attended a formal event in your best clothes, your finest jewelry and your snowmobile boots
You can play road hockey on skates
Shoveling the driveway constitutes a great upper body workout
You know the 4 seasons: Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter, and Construction.
The municipality buys a Zamboni before a bus
You actually 'get' these jokes, and forward them to all your Northern friends
A $400 electric bill is a bargain.
How FAR upstate???
Foothills of the Adirondacks. Anything south of Smallbany is NY Metro area as far as we're concerned. Heh. If you can get the NYC TV stations with an antenna, then you're an outer borough. :)
Hi,
Ok, I understand you get tix for the viewing platform at ground zero at the South St. Seaport. Should i take the n/r to whitehall? What is the best way to get there?
Also, can I go down there on Sunday and get tix for later in the week?
Thanks,
Allen
>>>Also, can I go down there on Sunday and get tix for later in the week? <<<
As far as I know, you can ONLY get tickets for the same day.
Peace,
ANDEE
What is the waiting time?
Best way to South Street is is take the:
A or C to B'way-Nassau or
1 or 2 to Fulton-William or
4 or 5 to Fulton St.
Walk on Fulton St away from the Church at B'way all the way to the East River.
You have no choice about the time stamped on the tickets. Whatever they are handing out when you get to the head of the line is what you have to accept.
The booth opens at 11 AM. They start handing out tickets in half hour blocks dated through 7:30 PM the same day and then 9 AM through 11:30 for the next day. When they run out of tickets they close down the booth.
It helps to take a camera. Not for sensationalism, just so you can remember afterwards what you saw. You only get 3 minutes on the platform.
Anybody venture down to the train show at the Valley Forge Convention
Center today?
I get a call from a friend of mine who's on amtrak in philly, coming up here. we figure F* it, we'll meet at penn station, get a drink, catch up, etc...
So I get on the N at 36th av here in queens. A northbound train pulls in and dumps it's air - so i know something is up - then I look and release just how right i am: There's some guy, probably stoned off his rocker, laying down ON TOP OF THE TRAIN!
Almost immediately the conductor is there yelling at this fool to get down and to "get the hell off my train". He quickly complied and the train left...
I guess he just wanted some air... :)
Coming home, I get on at 34th & 6th - and immediately notice the kid standing by the metrocard reader swiping a few cards through. I kept my eye on this character as he sold swipes for a dollar to several people, then counted his money towards the side as the crowd from MSG thinned. I think he pulled in at least 10 bucks in them 5-10 minutes. Stupidly, he stayed there after the crowd of people getting on died down. i didn't stick around, but I figure if he was stupid enough to stick around much longer the PD would be coming to grab him...
rest of the ride was dull. I just hope my photo of that freak on top of the train comes out.
This isn't really transit-related, but I've got another one for you:
Around 2AM this morning I was coming home from a friend's house in Wicker Park, driving northbound on Ashland. Somewhere around Montrose, a blue Honda Accord pulls in front of me and swings too wide on the turn, just barely missing a parked pickup truck on the side of the street. For a moment I could have sworn he almost did it intentionally.
But as he continued northbound on Ashland, with me behind him, he continued to abruptly swing over toward the right side of the road, barely missing parked cars. Finally, he tagged one, setting off the car alarm and sending pieces of trim and a rearview mirror all over the pavement. And then.... He kept on driving, continuing to take swpies at parked cars. He hit at least one more car before I made my turn at Foster, and he continued northbound on Ashland. Luckily, while behind him I managed to write down a description of the car and his plates, and soon enough, I flagged down a cop on Foster and gave her the info.
Oddly enough, just a couple weeks ago, one of my homeowners down at Midway said somebody stole his car a while pack and did the exact same thing a while back. They drove it to another neighborhood, and went zig-zag down the side streets smashing into parked cars before they finally ditched his car.
I've seen some pretty fucked-up things while living here in Chicago, but this comes pretty close to taking the cake. Good thing my Trans Am is a beater, but still... I'm hoping my next apartment in Philly has an indoor garage, or at least an off-street lot.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yeah, Dave, not to knock Chicago -- but our proud country doesn't have a shortage of A--holes....
BMTman
And worse, many of them are in CHARGE of something. :)
That's the scary part!
No argument from me on that one.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I once watched a red Neon come through my apartment's parking lot, blissfully continue up onto the grass, across the field, then *thunk!* stop. Tree. Whoops. Reverse, turn, and blissfully head off in another direction. Kinda like those toy cars. Wait, it's a Neon. It is a toy car.
Another brilliant Hartford driver makes a left on red, swerves all over the street, then makes another left, without slowing, down another street.
At a bar once. Drunk biker comes out, hops on bike. Said biker then proceeds to start bike, dump clutch, and burn 5,000 miles off his rear tire. That was cool, actually.
Japanese sportbike riders like doing this too. The guy next door to me once spet about 45 minutes trying to do this. Rev up, dump clutch, stall, restart. Not so impressive. watching a Ninja once at a stoplight. he! the headlight on it bounced up and down. Woah, there it goes again!. Heh. Cute little puff of smoke off the rear tire. Not impressive.
Once saw an SUV (what else?) make a wrong turn and start driving down the tracks at Glen Head. I really wish the Oyster Bay line was electrified.
This morning's Asbury Park Press has a story about a fellow who apparantly assumed the oncoming train was going to stop at the station yesterday (they referred to the "Holmdel" station so I'm not sure whether they meant Hazlet, Aberdeen/Matawan, or Middletown - the APP isn't exactly known for brilliant reporting) and started to drive around the gates, which are just to the NYC side of the platforms at any of those stations. The train, a deadhead move heading for the Harrison shops, was coming slowly, but not slowly enough to stop before striking the car a glancing blow. No injuries, but one rather amazed driver.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good thing a train wasn't coming, although on the OB line they aren't that frequent. I've seen migrants walk the tracks in Glen Cove all the time.
Japanese sportbikes? Ah, you mean CROTCH ROCKETS!!!
Ever wanna see a good one on them things? Armor-All their tires!!!
I used to ArmorAll my seat years ago...scary in a lay-down. Crotch Rocket boy on 239th gives us a show during lunch break doing Wheelies..never could loft the front end of my old four cylinder Honda. Sucker dumped in front of us...I'll save some gearbox oil for a laugh.
Japanese sportbikes? Ah, you mean CROTCH ROCKETS!!!
Or, UJM, squid thruster. I think 'Sportbike' is a generous term, since they seem to be good for little more than wheelies. I'd rather a Ducati or an Aprilia, or another real bike over one. The only nice thing about Ninjas and their ilk is they're cheap and disposeable. Buy a used one, ride till the motor blows 10,000 miles later, and toss it.
Ever wanna see a good one on them things? Armor-All their tires!!!
Bleach works great on Harleys and musclecars. IIRC, most better bike rallies have a burnout pit. Local decent biker bar (Red Dog in middletown), has numerous burnout and out marks in the parking lot.
Burnouts are always entertaining to watch. Cop's hate 'em though :/
Local decent biker bar (Red Dog in middletown), has numerous burnout and out marks in the parking lot.
I presume you mean Middletown, Connecticut. Back in the early 1990's, I worked in that city's criminal courthouse. Suffice to say that we were quite familiar with the Red Dog.
Hehehehe Yeah, that place.
Phil, I never really cared for the crotch/rockets. About 12-15 years ago I had a girlfriend who had a Honda Interceptor. I had both a Harley FLHTP and a Yamaha Virago (Harley lookalike) Whenever we went on a long trip with her Interceptor and either my Harley or Virago we would switch bikes at every service area (which is like every 30 miles on the NY Thruway, Jersey Tnpk, etc) To be honest I couldn't wait to get back on my own bike. Since all your weight is on your hands your wrists hurt like hell. The position doesn't help your back much either. I could never imagine going on a long trip with one or even having one as your only bike. But then my ex loved them. (She didn't complain about riding the Hog though) By the way, I still have both bikes even though with a wife & kid I don't ride much anymore.
Way back in February 1978 when we had a mean cold snap, Great South Bay completely froze ! I saw this myself.
I read in Newsday that some daredevil driver drove his four wheel drive vehicle (before SUVs) clear across Great South Bay. Nope, the ice didn't break, in fact he made it to the other side. When he sucessfully made it to the beach he was stopped by local police and given a summons for driving his vehicle on that beach. There are no motor vehicle laws prohibiting you from driving across the bay. He's lucky the ice didn't break.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was at two separate pickup truck wrecks this morning. All the roads were dry and clear....
The first, a 19YM with ETOH went off the road through a barbed wire fence, over come boulders and across a frozen river, coming to rest on the opposite bank. Sure glat that river was frozen for I wasn't about to go in after him, call the FD for that one hey.
Him Stupid, wasn't wearing seatbelt, but god protects drunks and children (as much as possible) and so he was able to walk to the patrol car. The sheriff gave him a lift, but seemed to head off to the jail house instead of to the kid's home. Oh well, kids gotta learn some how.
The second driver dozed off a bit on I-94 (at 75 mph) when he found the right shoulder he awoke and tried to recover. He would have been better off just continuing in the ditch he was headed for, but human reactions are not that way, and so he dended up sailing across four lanes of traffic and the median into the opposite ditch, both sideways and on his side.
Him smart, was wearing seat belt... gets to walk home.
Elias
Speaking of idiot SUV drivers, I once saw something on the morning news that was truly pathetic.
The scene: A toll plaza on the Northwest Tollway.
The players: Two large SUV's
One SUV driver, asserting his manhood, speeds up to try to beat the other one into a toll lane. The other SUV driver, not about to let his own manhood be challenged, speeds up and tries to cut the guy off. The result? Both SUV's ended up perfectly wedged into the toll lane, between the concrete barriers on either side. But at least their manhood was not in question.
Also, since I bought the Trans Am in October, I've become very annoyed with all these stupid little "ricer" cars with the neon, the drak tinted windows, the fart-can muffler, the high-rise spoiler, and of course the obligatory blue headlights and clear turn signals. Honda Civics seem to be the worst offenders. Invaribly, they're being driven by some 17-year-old kid who wants to race me. (I guess they watched The Fast and the Furious and learned that the neon around the licesne plates alone adds 50 HP to their engine.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I hate those kind of cars too, mainly the drivers. Don't forget that racing stripes add 75 horsepower, too. I was thinking about hanging my clothes to dry on those spoilers, which add 30 hp, BTW. The drivers are usually spoiled brats whose mommy and daddy gave them the car. Have you noticed 99% of them have about 20 stickers showing what "modifications" were done to it? I put that in quotes because 99% of the time, the car has NO modifications to it, save the exhuast pipe and wheels. I usually like asking those posers, "How much did those companies pay you to advertise on your car? Oh, you're saying you PAID for those stickers? Sucker."
Those would be 'ricers'. Usually kids whose mothers bought them used Neons, Civics, Sentras, Cavaliers (rare) or Sunfires(rare), and the kids spend big bucks turning them into cop magnets.
Try www.riceboypage.com for a laugh. It hasn't been updated in a while, but you do get to see some pretty stupid stuff like this Honda Civic del Sol.
-Hank
"Once saw an SUV (what else?) make a wrong turn and start driving down the tracks at Glen Head. I really wish the Oyster Bay line was electrified."
A couple of years ago, I was driving through Norwood Park (UP-Northwest Line) on a Saturday morning when I saw a bunch of cops and the firemen from the fire station across the street milling around on the tracks. It turned out there was a car sitting on the inbound track just east of the train station! The really odd thing is that he was facing west -- there's a grade crossing just west of the station, but since the car had come from the east, it either had to drive down the tracks for at least three blocks or reverse down the tracks for over half a block (the latter being highly unlikely).
>>There's some guy, probably stoned off his rocker, laying down ON TOP OF THE TRAIN! I guess he just wanted some air... :)<<
Maybe he was sunning himself!
And you say some kid was charging $1 for swiped Metrocards ? What was that quote Phineas T. Barnum said...."a sucker born every minute".
Bill "Newkirk"
sunning himself at 11pm! :)
He really seemed relaxed up there, as if it was perfectly normal to be there...
As for the guy selling swipes, apparently it's a pretty common practice, and it was mostly the drunk 20-something crowd in off NJT or LIRR that don't live here and don't buy metrocards that were taking up his offer. I guess it's just a dumb suburbanite thing.
then again, there's still people that take them dollar vans, then pay another dollar fitty' to get on the subway...
>>sunning himself at 11pm!<<
Ok, I stand corrected, he was getting a moon tan !
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> And you say some kid was charging $1 for swiped Metrocards ? <<<
No he said the guy was selling swipes for $1. Other than the illegality of the situation, why do you think those paying $1 to enter the subway were suckers?
Tom
People like me who pay $1.50 to the swipe guys are the real suckers.
Why, they would have to pay 150$ anyway
>>No he said the guy was selling swipes for $1. Other than the illegality of the situation, why do you think those paying $1 to enter the subway were suckers?<<
Tom, "The Joe" said he was at the reader, not the turnstile. As far as the $1 donation to the kid goes, you're paying for a ride on the system, not $1 to go into his pocket.
Bill "Newkirk"
What kind of card did this kid have that he could be selling swipes for $1?
Well, it must have been a paid card with x number of trips on it, right, otherwise, it coould not be re-swipd at the same station Yes?
So it must have be stollen, fo he certainly would not have done this with his own card.
Maybe they should get rid of the metro cards, and just go with retinal scanners. If your account is paid up, in you go.
Elias
>>> What kind of card did this kid have that he could be selling swipes for $1? <<<
From the original post, I got the impression that he had several cards with him. They could be any type of unlimited cards, as long as he had enough to use each one only once every 18 minutes. He has the ability to recover $3.00 per hour per card. With $40.00 of capital he could buy 10 fun passes early in the morning and make quite a bit of profit by the end of the day.
Tom
We all know the tale of the one who sucked tokens out of the turnstile. Well, this is my story.
I entered W4 at the north end (it was a jeans shop then and may still be so). This is a very cramped area. There were lots and lots of milling white people quite distressed that (apparently) all-but-one of the turnstiles were out-of-order. The booth attendant was already on the phone, and I had already spotted him. He was not sucking tokens, but his unwashed self was dominating that (presumably functional) turnstile, his upcupped hand over the token slot.
This station then had a basic gate, where you could open it and get into the paid area without dropping a token.
My response was to drop a token into the dip of the token booth and go thru the gate, even as the booth attendant exclaimed that was illegal.
Gawd. I'm honest, but I also practice the NY second.
not sure what sorta card he had, but he had a whole lot of them. at least 6 or 7...
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I have another contender. This AM I was at 3rd ave on the L waiting for the train to 6av. The Canarsie train pulls in and then leaves with some nut riding outside the rear car holding on to the square baes welded to the slant end. I went back to the booth to request the EBCS be activated. I then turned on my personal scanner to verify Conteol got the message. Yes, they did. The jerk was removed by police at Bedford.
My compliments to the others waiting at 3rd ave. They actually all agreed with me that the guy was crazy.
'Surfing' on the end of the last car on trains like this became such a problem on the London Underground that they removed most of the bars from the car ends except for the ones on each side of the cab door. The ones on the platform sides of the carbody were taken off.
-Robert King
>>> then leaves with some nut riding outside the rear car holding on to the square baes welded to the slant end <<<
Obviously he had heard it was illegal to ride between cars and was trying to the sensation while remaining legal. :-)
Tom
>>The Canarsie train pulls in and then leaves with some nut riding outside the rear car holding on to the square baes welded to the slant end.<<
What gives ? Whether it's surfing on top of subway cars, hanging on to grab irons or driving around lowered crossing gates, some people yearn to be placed in coffins sooner than they should. This will lead to a shortage of Darwin Awards !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I call 'em 'Stupid Human Tricks' (like David Letterman's 'Stupid Pet Tricks').
BMTman
They finally made it tonight, and ran by 7th Av on the northbound local track to the Bronx, from Linden Yard. I was in the process of doing a job at 18th St when I head the whine of a diesel locomotive, and here come streaks of stainless steal. Out of the woodwork comes 6566-70! It's about damn time. I wondered when they were coming.
It's not too often I get to witness an R-142 delivery in person! This was not an adventure from the apartment window.
I should have flagged the T/O down for a ride. Heh.
-Stef
>>Out of the woodwork comes 6566-70!<<
That set was finally delivered now ? We're up to the mid 6800s I believe. Why the delay ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Numerous modifications to the set held them at the plant while other siblings were sent down the road.
-Stef
Yah should have scratched 'WB2SGT Lives' with a piece of chalk on carbody....the message gets to 239th. 'Attention in the barn, attention in the barn, rapid movement of trains, be aware.' So I'm bushed Thursday afternoon and just a few blocks from home something pings off my window. It was one of my classmates with 'Waddya Pick?'
The past catches up quickly...R142s are coming out of storage AND I HOPE AND PRAY THAT MOST OF THEM ARE DESTINED FOR THE #5. CI Peter
Weekend of 2/23, 1 Line Service Disruption: 137th St-Dyckman St.
Local and Express Shuttle Buses available. Express buses go straight to Dyckman St.
Switch work affects the service. The yard leads are being worked on at each side of the yard, north and southbound sides.
The train at Dyckman St will be rather interesting. It will most likely come into the station on the southbound side, and return north from there. A Previous Occassion taught me the train proceeds via M Track to north of 215th St. A second T/O will bring it south onto the northbound local track at 215th St. Crew picks up/drops off passengers, before going onto to VC.
It will be an incovenience for the Station Agent (me) who has to travel to booths along the line.
I know those tracks ... if they land on the southbound side for a northern run, some folks who get off at 207th are gonna be MIGHTY grumpy ... MAYBE they'll bring 'em DOWN to 200, then back them up onto M, then switch them back down to the northbound 200 platform.
Geez! I just realized ya basket ... you just made me propose a ROUTE! Ack! Be gone with ya ... if you're late, take pictures ... write up a G2 dammit! Next thing ya know, I'll be routing the 5 train between E180 and PARCHER/ARSONS! Yipe! :)
Bloody hell! Nevermind ... if I lived in Inwood, SCREW the #1, I'd just take the A train ... no busses either. Then again, I'll bet the numbers ain't all that good for 207 station either way. :)
We might have that much more traffic on the A. I'm particularly concerned about 168th St.
-Stef
Here's hoping they shut off the elevators and close the gates to the stairways ... the ONE benefit though is that there IS the A train and whatever is running out of 168 these days (used to be AA/B in my days) is able to take up the slack. There's not all THAT much distance between the lines other than the hills at 191 and 181 ... by the time you get down to 168/145 it isn't THAT bad ...
But as to 207th customers (and 215 for that matter) I'm sure they'll just go over to St Nicholas and just take a train ...
Perhaps. On a previous occassion, the train bypassed 207th St, and backed up into 215th St. We shall see.
A G2?!? My goodness, I'll just tell them I took a trip around the world. Heh.
-Stef
"Around the world" requires at least three swipes. I'd go for the G2. :)
With that express bus, the ride from VC to 96th will probably be faster than it ever was.
The train at Dyckman St will be rather interesting. It will most likely come into the station on the southbound side, and return north from there. A Previous Occassion taught me the train proceeds via M Track to north of 215th St. A second T/O will bring it south onto the northbound local track at 215th St. Crew picks up/drops off passengers, before going onto to VC.
The other option is: Leave VC southbound, operate normal to 215, accept Call-On to M track, operate on M from 215 to north of Dyckman, accept call-on to wrong-rail into Dyckman. operate normal northbound from dyckman to VC.
This is the preferred move, since it eliminates the need for a switchman at 215 for the relay. In any event, the midnight crews love it, as they do 4 shuttles each.
On President's Day (Mon., Feb. 18), what sort of schedule are the NYC subways running on? Please respond ASAP.
Saturday schedule
Wait a minute! Subways don't run on weekends & holidays, do they???
All those who work for Division of Stations would answer your question with:
WE WISH!
Speaking of which, I have a Lunch Relief effected by the holiday. In plain words, I don't have a job to go to! Now I must go extra for the day. Oh noooooooooooooo......
-Stef
You better call for a job tomorrow. Or you'll be marked AWOL!
Stations is operating on Sunday schedule and RTO is on Saturday Schedule.
For stations that means if a booth or entrance is closed Sundays it will be closed tomorrow, if it opens at a different time on Sundays then that will be the time it opens tomorrow.
Just to confuse everyone, right? Is there some reason why RTO and Stations can't work the same schedule on these days? That way, when people ask us on the train,' is this exit open?', we can read the sign and answer them.
YOU can read?? IN English?? Whataryu looking for a promotion? CI Peter
Everyone deserves the right to climb the ladder of success to their rung of incompetency - I just haven't got there yet.
Looks like we're both right.
I did! I did! I'm on Board Report starting at 1500 hours. Station Command had no jobs to give out.
-Stef
Hopefully you'll spend the day waiting.
Well I'm spending the Holiday on the No.6 Line operating R142A's
I thought you were a C/R and Pelham Bay Dave (aka Dad) was the T/O.
Or, did you crossover already? (Weren't you just out of proby?).
Is this wishful thinking?
Its wishful thinking. I just operate the doors and program the computer. There should be another T/O Exam coming out at the end of the year according to some strong rumors.
I don't know I'm starting to get too relaxed as a C/R.
All day Saturday at work announcments on the Mass Call System said Monday we'll be working a Sunday Schedule.
Two hours to 239th or 21 minutes by car. CI Peter
Official schedules on the MTA site say Pres. Day is on a Sat. schedule.
Official schedules on the MTA site say Pres. Day is on a Sat. schedule.
Does that mean that the MTA is going to run 7 trains, 5 of them 30 minutes apart, the other 2 15 minutes apart, with one of the 30 minute trains classified "experimental?"
If George Washington's memory wasn't disrespected for a three-day weekend, then it would be a Monday schedule.
People's birthdays shouldn't be holidays (except for December 25, since Jesus was born in the spring or summer).
People's birthdays shouldn't be holidays
Agreed. It's almost like idolotry. But GW's name is no longer on the Holiday, it's now President's Day. I think it would be better if the only two holidays stilled named for people were renamed for the principle, not the person.
I also don't think real people should be on our coins. They never were, until 1909. Putting rulers on coins is what monarchies do.
WooHoo!
We had a wonderful opertunity to go back to Liberty on our coins with the Dollar Coin, but instead congrefs had to go the politically correct route.
I also think we should remove "In God We Trust" from our currency, it's a blatant disregard of the First Amendment freedom of religion.
WooHoo!
I guess that means you agree.
We had a wonderful opertunity to go back to Liberty on our coins with the Dollar Coin, but instead congrefs had to go the politically correct route.
I don't know the whole history of the thing, but as I understand the original law for the new dollar coin specified a representation of Liberty on its obverse. This was apparently fudged (as it was originally with Lincoln) to the idea that Sacagawea is a representation of Liberty. This is bolstered somewhat by pointing out that the images on the coin are not actually of Sacagawea and her son, but of living models (as were repreentations of Liberty) as we don't have any real good idea of what Sacagawea actually looked like.
I also think we should remove "In God We Trust" from our currency, it's a blatant disregard of the First Amendment freedom of religion.
"In God We Trust" has a lot of legal history. It's one of those things in which people read what they want into it. There's quite a bit of sentiment that that phrase, in particular (as opposed to a more explicit phrase, such as "Jesus Lives" or "We Have Faith in God") has a strong allegorical connotation. Specifically, we Trust in God, therefore we do not trust (or deprive our legitimacy from) men--as in kings or nobility.
I do believe that any messing with the phrase in a half-hearted attempt to make satisfy everyone (as we have a habit of doing these days) would be much worse.
I also think we should remove "In God We Trust" from our currency, it's a blatant disregard of the First Amendment freedom of religion.
"In God We Trust" has a lot of legal history. It's one of those things in which people read what they want into it. There's quite a bit of sentiment that that phrase, in particular (as opposed to a more explicit phrase, such as "Jesus Lives" or "We Have Faith in God") has a strong allegorical connotation. Specifically, we Trust in God, therefore we do not trust (or deprive our legitimacy from) men--as in kings or nobility.
I do believe that any messing with the phrase in a half-hearted attempt to make satisfy everyone (as we have a habit of doing these days) would be much worse.
Well put, Paul. Also, what the First Amendment states is that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". This translates into freedom of religion, but not necessarily freedom from religion. Our country has a very strong religious tradition, and the entire social backbone of our nation is rooted strongly in religion. The Founding Fathers were all religious men (modern-day interpretations of Jefferson's beliefs notwithstanding) and the importance to them of religious belief, in whatever form it might take, should not be underestimated. Agnosticism they would have tolerated, albeit with great reluctance, but atheism was not something they would have accepted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> modern-day interpretations of Jefferson's beliefs notwithstanding <<<
I thought Franklin was the free thinker among the founders, not Jefferson.
Tom
Both were, but in different ways. Franklin was never accused of being an atheist; Jefferson was.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Franklin was never accused of being an atheist; Jefferson was.
On the other hand, Franklin was accused of being quite the ladies' man, sort of an 18th Century Hugh Hefner. It's been said that some of his writings most definitely - and quite explicitly - proved the point, but they've been "sanitized" by historians.
Ummm...
Yes, Franklin had quite a bit to do with the ladies, and at a quite elderly age. He made remarks about French women (complimentary) when he was ambassador to France that probably shouldn't be repeated ina family forum.
Howver, I would not call him a "Hugh Hefner." Franklin was a revolutionary, a genius, an inventor and diplomat. He was a free agent and a free spirit. Hugh Hefner is a high-class pimp.
Thankyou Anon_e_mouse and God Bless. An awful lot is constantly open for reinterpritation but the Founding Fathers were a lot wiser than their years. They accepted most beliefs...only today do we understand that most religions worship or accept the same Creator in many forms. So a CI says to me, 'Peter, you are the rock.' I wondered, afraid to say anything, just thinking 'Jewel In The Crown.' It's a tough call when I sincerely say 'thankyou and God Bless' to someone who might have an icon of Ghandalph on the dashboard, especially a Dep. Supt. The correct thought always counts.
Now on to the Second Amendment. CI Peter who serves when called.
The separation of church and state is quite diferent from what we take it to be today. Kings used to be crowned by the Pope. Church had its own courts, some monasteris were big land owners complete with serfs. When the monarch became protestant, so did his whole kingdom. The church medled with the affairs of the crown, and the crown returned the favor.
Before that, it *was* the church that was the glue for peoples... when "kings" ruled what were essentially counties, they called on religion for legitimacy.
So the issue is not belief or faith in God or a particular religion so much as it is protection for both faith and nation from the designs of each other.
Besides, as was said, most Americans do have a strong faith and or trust in God, though this too seems to be fading somewhat.
Elias
This translates into freedom of religion, but not necessarily freedom from religion.
This is total bull. What about those religions which do not have a belief in a traditional diety? What about polytheistic religions? How can they trust in one god?
Not worshipping god is as much of a religion as worshipping god. I don't have a problem with laws that are based on religion (without that, there would be no laws). But forcing everyone to believe in a god regardless of all common sense is the same as forcing everybody to be Christian, or a Protestant.
Not worshipping god is as much of a religion as worshipping god.
What a great opening for a discussion in basic philosophy here.
But in short...
If one is an atheist or agnostic with an emphasis on the "ist" you could argue that it is a secular religion--as in, you read works by famous atheists, go to meetings of societies of atheists, and argue with others based primarily on these readings and common beliefs. OTOH, if you simply do not believe in a deity (say you're a scientist or doctor who feels that his life experience points away from a deity) I would not call it a religion or you may believe in a deity completely outside of religion. It is possible.
A major problem, IMO, is when what should be philosophies (outstandingly in our era Marxism) become religions, but are not identified as such.
I don't have a problem with laws that are based on religion (without that, there would be no laws).
I would say that is backwards. What is one of the most central features of the oldest of the "Western" religions, Judaism? The Law. The Ten Commandments are essentially a codification of the common-sense principles of a civilized society. The sense that murder, theft and betrayal are wrong is based on a common sense of morality apart from formal religion and are a prequisite to a decent civil society.
A big area of mischief is when people argue (and some have) that it is the religion that came first, therefore the aforementioned sanctions against murder, theft and betrayal are simply cultural constructs. The Judeo-Christian Bible (and probably most others, where they deal with human behavior) is a very materialist document.
But forcing everyone to believe in a god regardless of all common sense is the same as forcing everybody to be Christian, or a Protestant.
Since we were talking about "In God We Trust" on money, that doesn't force anyone to believe in anything--it doesn't even represent coercion, if it understood in the context of allegiance to a universal force as opposed to a monarch.
Think of "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" in the Declaration of Independence. Were the framers trying to make a powerful statement of faith? Were they telling the just-as-religious King of England that the founders had a religious vision? No, they were declaring that the people of the future United States (and by implication, everyone else in the world) did not derive their basic rights from any human, and especially not George III.
The sense that murder, theft and betrayal are wrong is based on a common sense of morality apart from formal religion and are a prequisite to a decent civil society.
There are those of course who will argue that one cannot be moral without God, that people will only behave when coerced by fear.
A big area of mischief is when people argue (and some have) that it is the religion that came first, therefore the aforementioned sanctions against murder, theft and betrayal are simply cultural constructs.
But they ARE cultural constructs, not because of religious reasons but it is the culture that finds murder to be to the detriment of society. Mesoamerican cultures (among others) practiced human sacrifice. That is a form of legal murder. Today's executions are a form of legal murder, but many will argue (like myself) that there is nothing wrong with killing killers.
Allowing murder is not efficient toward the proper function of society, people would spend too much time looking behind their back to accomplish anything.
Think of "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" in the Declaration of Independence.
Creator can mean a lot of things, everything has to be created. That statement only says that the act of being created is what endows a person with their rights.
God implies something completely different.
As simple as possible, Pretend it is Sunday for a second day.
Don't know about New York, but in Chicago all tranist will be running on a regular weekday schedule.
-- Ed Sachs
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/17/nyregion/17SIGN.html\
Get a load of the MTA spokesman's rationalization of the errors! "They're not really causing confusion."
Geez, I sometimes wish MY employer was similarly tolerant of flubs...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Like it's so hard to find someone in NY who can write a sign in Spanish.
Actually, it might be that difficult. How many fully-qualified translator employees does the TA have? Those who might be incidentally qualified are unlikely to have any influence over what happens.
I bet they have mucho Spanish-speaking employees with college degrees who could do accurate translations.
So do I. But I also bet not one of these highly (and bilingually) literate employees are allowed any input whatsover into the TA's Spanish-language signage.
As a practical matter, they'd have to have a whole department dedicated just to getting the signs right (in English too), at an absurd cost, in both money and bureaucratic absurdity.
The best Spanish 'Spanglish' speaker-writers are our CTAs. 'Yo Kemosabbee...don't lean on the doors...comprende?' CI Peter
I am thinking about going to Chicago the first week of March. My wife is telling me to go some were by myself for a few days during my vaction. She can't go becouse she in school and can't miss classes. So I was thinking about taking AmTrak there and back. What I need I some good place to stay near the L that won't brake the bank, and won't put me in the Bates motel ether.
Just E-mail any infomation would be good My e-mail address is r.g.mencher@verizon.net. Thank for anyone who can help.
Robert
the chicago greyhound station is full of them !
hotels / motel list
near the clinton blue line subway station ..
Try City Suites on Belmont. It's a small hotel just steps from the North Side Belmont "L" station (Red, Brown, and Purple lines), 12 minutes from the Loop. It's reasonably priced, since it's not in the Loop or North Michigan Avenue areas.
They've gotton pricey in the last couple of years, same chain as Majestic Hotel. That section of Belmont near the el is a little tacky too.
Try this, I've stayed here:
http://www.the.daysinn.com/chicago06906?sid=AAACEgAAWAAAbW8AAL
River North at 2800 block where Diversey, Broadway and Clark intersect. Very lively and safe area until after midnight with lots of stores opn late.
10 minute walk from el station, or take the 22 or 36 bus from the Loop to their street corner.
River North at 2800 block where Diversey, Broadway and Clark intersect. Very lively and safe area until after midnight with lots of stores opn late.
I agree, but one minor nitpick: River North is the area of downtown just north of the Chicago River (hence, the name River North). The area around Clark/Diversey/Broadway is either Lincoln Park or Lakeview, depending on which side of Diversey you're standing. (Lincoln Park is south of Diversey, Lakeview is north.) It's a very cool area (although a bit loud and obnoxious on weekends) with plenty to do. I used to live about four blocks away from that intersection.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You're right. I meant to say Lincoln Park North, although it's on the north side of Diversey.
Other than the Days Inn at 644 West Diversey, which was mentioned in another post, the other chain hotel in Lakeview is:
Comfort Inn Chicago
601 W Diversey Parkway
Chicago, IL 60657
Phone: (773) 348-2810
Ask for the small single room. It is small, but OK for one person. The hotel is clean and they have a continental breakfast. The hotel is located east of Clark Street on Diversey. It is a three block walk to/from the Brown Line Diversey stop.
Before I moved to Chicago, I stayed here often. Expect to probably pay at least $75 per night with taxes extra - 14%. However, they may have some low season pricing right now.
This is the heart of Lakeview. In this neighborhood, you're safe, there is plenty to do, and getting fed is no problem.
If coming in from O'Hare, take the Blue line to Logan Square and transfer to a #76 Diversey bus going eastbound to Sheridan Road - fare $1.80. Ask the driver to let you know when you get to Clark Street. Walk east, you'll see the Comfort Inn sign from the bus stop. If coming from Midway, take the Orange Line to the Loop, get off at Library (first stop in the Loop) crossing under to the Brown Line running on the outer loop track signed for Kimball, and ride it to Diversey, one stop past Fullerton. Walk to hotel - fare $1.50, or transfer to the #76 Diversey bus and ride to Clark Street - fare $1.80.
If you're flying in, plan to purchase a farecard at either airport. There are day passes, but the machines are broken or out of cards most of the time. You'll do well to purchase a farecard for $20, bill accepted by the vending maching, that is if you plan to do some riding. The CTA will give you a card worth $22. Of course, you can get a card for as little as $2, but why keep going back to the machine to charge up your card. Each time you use the card the farebox (bus) or turnstile ('L') deducts the $1.50 for the 1st ride, and .30 for the next transfer. Remaining transfer is free within 2 hours. At the airport stations ask for a CTA map. It is worth money, but it is free.
Good luck.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
How is 3000 No. Mannhaein Raod , it's a Confort Inn. at Franklin Park. As for Farecards I going to oder them on line at CTA websit. They have Vistor Pass for as little a $5 for a day pass, but I might by the 3 day pss for I think $18, so this way I have them already. I am comming in on Amtrak train #49 from Penn Station. I leave NY on 3/5 @ 4:35pm and get there 3/6 @ 11:10aCT, I leaving on Train #40 on the 3/8 @ 9:20pm and in NY on 3/9 @ 7:20pm. So if anyone want to meat me to go railfaning let me know, this is way I picked Chicago in the first place.
Robert
From what I hear, MS Train Simulator is on sale at bestbuy for 19.99... that is a huge price drop
enjoy :)
MSTS isn't selling well and has a VERY high rate of "returns" ... a few stores that had it when it first came out no longer stock it owing to Microsoft's "restocking" policies ...
I don't know about it being a poor seller. The electronics outfit I regularly patronize sells a few dozen copies a week at the branch I go to....and they are NOT discounting it any more. Regular price, $49.95. They did sell it for $27.95 a couple months ago, that's when I bought it as I figured with a new system sitting here, it would work.
And it works just fine.....
Best Buy store I was in Princeton today had 1 opened package of it for $50. I didn't buy it.
I can only tell ya what I heard at the local store here - they no longer stock it ...
I know of one spot where the Fulton St. IND subway line could be connected to the old BMT subway line in Brooklyn. This connection could be made just past the Fulton St. station in Brooklyn on the IND going towards Manhattan and it would connect with the BMT subway line before DeKalb Ave. in Brooklyn. This way you can have two different services available on the IND Fulton St. line in Brooklyn.
#3 West End Jeff
Unless you were able to get some BMT service routed onto the Fulton Street IND, this would create a massive bottleneck getting into DeKalb.
If you read your history, there was a plan to have service on the now defunct Fulton St. El through DeKalb Ave. by creating a connection to the BMT subway line at Gold St. DeKalb Avenue would certainly be able to handle the extra traffic.
#3 West End Jeff
There was also a plan once to have a BMT El starting from Queensboro Plaza. Go into Brooklyn. Transfer customers to the BMT Jamaica Line. Either at Marcy Ave or Driggs Ave and eventually connect with the Franklin Ave Line at Fulton St. Plans were made for it with routes and stations locations. But it was one of those things the BMT couldn't do.
I'm also aware of the BMTs plan to build a Brooklyn to Queens crosstown line.
#3 West End Jeff
The Park connection is more feasable, since it involves only construction thru the Prospect Park.
BMT to IND South Brooklyn Line, at a point at or about Hawthorne Street, to Prospect Park West and 9th Street.
IND is two levels at this point, and connections can be made directly to either level.
With all gentrification going on around this area, when will they build a subway station here?? For years this blighted neighborhood was hell. Nobody wanted to come close, but now it's trendy, with people moving in, bistros, bars.
The income and people moving down here, the MTA should look into opening something closer.
It sure looked bad back then.
Where is Alphabet City?
The streets are letters.
Do you mean in Brooklyn, Ave A, Ave B, etc?
The strange thing is they call the East Village Alphabet City, but it's only Avenue A-Avenue D.
In the Borough of Kings you have the full complement of letters of the alphabet, with the exception of G, Q, and the most popular letter, E, but nobody calls Brooklyn Alphabet City.
Which is probably just as well.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Probably it was called Brooklyn City. (City of Brooklyn?)
"but nobody calls Brooklyn Alphabet City"
But in Brooklyn, the Alphabet soup spills over many neighborhoods...
In Mahattan it is the monkier for a particular neighborhood, defined by four avenues and about eight streets.
Elais
For what it's worth, Quentin Road was once Avenue Q. And at Glenwood Road's western corners at Ocean Avenue, you'll find two brick and concrete pillars engraved "AVENUE G".
Now I wonder if Newkirk Avenue is old Avenue E. I guess if you're using the same decoder ring on which "Newark" yields "EWR", it's a sensible translation.
-F.P.
>>>Now I wonder if Newkirk Avenue is old Avenue E. I guess if you're using the same decoder ring on
which "Newark" yields "EWR", it's a sensible translation. <<<
I have an 1896 map on which Avenue E appears. It lines up with what is now Ditmas Avenue. Dorchester Road was Avenue D, and Clarendon east of Flatbush Avenue was Avenue C.
In the early 20th Century they did a wholesale renaming with British-sounding names. I suppose the more southerly lettered avenues escaped it since they were streets on paper only, and didn't really come into being until the 1910s and later.
BTW, Ave. Q was renamed after WWI in honor of Teddy Roosevelt's son Quentin, who was shot down and killed.
And, it's notable that Brooklyn has both Avenues I and J. In Washington, you have I ("Eye") Street, and K Street, but no J. Even today, the World's Biggest Store skips "I" in its catalog lettercoding.
Staten Island has an Avenue B in Port Richmond...but no other letter. And, the Bronx has a B Street in Schuylerville, but no other letter....
www.forgotten-ny.com
"ALPHABET CITY" became notorious and synonomous with blight and bohemiens in the early to mid 70's. In the 80's no-one dared to enter that block unless you were looking for drugs, were homeless or wanted to get shot, either from drug dealers or the cops.
Nightly gunfire exchange between drug dealers was the entertainment along with overhead helicopters.
How things have changed in this city. The Bronx is up, Bed-stuy is better, ENY has rows of townhouses, Brownsville's crime rate is way down and Alphabet City as we knew it is no more!
WOW!!!
How things have changed in this city. The Bronx is up, Bed-stuy is better, ENY has rows of townhouses, Brownsville's crime rate is way down and Alphabet City as we knew it is no more!
I know, isn't it great how all these bad parts of the city are improving! I just hope Osama didn't throw a wrench into all the progress NY has made in the last decade.
its all cyclical, I lived on 7th btwn A n B and briefly 11th btwb B n C 66-70. That was when the "East Village" name was invented by the real estate goons . "clean East Village Apts. $45/mo. and up" It was an interesting time--24 hour bongo drum 'service' in Tompkins Square Park, a LONG walk to the subway--we were a two fare neighborhood first you took the bus. The food stores were awful, but there was Fillmore East,the Paradox, and Leshko's. The dream of a Second Avenue Line was a backdrop to waiting for the ephemeral 15 buses--none then three.
Man you must have some good hobo stories to tell. There truely would be "HOBORIFIC" to hear...
66-70 $ 45/month ha!!! that's not a monthly bus pass today!!!
good lord what the hell has happened!
> In the Borough of Kings
You know, technically, Kings is a county, not a borough. It just coincides with Brooklyn, which really is a borough.
- Lyle Goldman
No this is just north of the lower East side, east of Little italy and the Village. In the 70's and 80's it was hit as hard as the south bronx, bed-Stuy and Brownsville for arsons. Everything went up in smoke.
Bohemiens took over and it became a shantytown of decrepit buildings, drug alleys, nightly gunfire and a place that most people wanted to avoid. The past decade, it gentrified where it is now getting trendy with it's cafes and bistros. Many of the burnt out buildings have been restored and this area now is pretty nice at least Ave. A and B. C is coming along and ave. D might always have problems with it's housing projects.
Still no expansion of the subway system there. Now that more and more people with money are moving in, I'm just wondering if the MTA or the city will be doing something with it. The F and J lines are the closest.
"The F and J lines are the closest."
Actually the most convenient subway stop for many of the residents is the L at 1st Ave. There are 14th St crosstown buses coming up Aves A, B, C, and D, and the people in more of a hurry (in rush hour at least) get out at 1st Ave for a train. The people in less of a hurry sit on the bus till they get to their north-south line and take the subway from there.
An Ave C and 14th St stop, if feasible, would get a lot of use, at least at times when the L comes with reasonable frequency.
> An Ave C and 14th St stop, if feasible,
Is it feasible?
- Lyle Goldman
"An Ave C and 14th St stop, if feasible,
Is it feasible?"
Obviously, everything is feasible for enough money. One issue might be if the tracks are at a 4-5% incline. I don't know of any station built on a serious incline.
Did you get the E mail I sent you???
"Did you get the E mail I sent you???"
No.
How about sharing it with the rest of us?
- Lyle Goldman
South of E 14 Street and East of 1 Avenue.
Got it. I was in the wrong Borough.
Don't feel bad. Most New Yorkers don't know that there is a BROADWAY in every borough, and Lexington, Fulton are streets in both Manhattan AND Brooklyn. Other examples exist.
Amazing. I was just thinking the ame thing as I sat on an increidbly overcrowded and stuck-n-traffic M14C bus.
A station at Ave C on the L should only cost about 100 million or so and would be well used. Unfortunately, anything else would require a totally new line. There already are stations at 1st Ave and Houston and Essex and Delancey, after all.
It does beg the question about why neither the BMT (L) or IND (F) built stations in the East Village. The BMT could have one on Avenue C, while the IND could have had one near where it turns, at Houston and Essex...
It must be said that Stuyvesant Town was not yet conceived when the BMT Canarsie Line was built. If it were already there, the BMT almost certainly would have gotten an Avenue C station...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The IND has a subway entrance one block from Houston and Essex, namely Houston and 1st. And another not far away at delancey and Essex.
The L station at 1st Ave. extends all the way to Ave. A. Why can't they put an entrance there?
Ditto for 2nd Av. Espacially in the age of HEET and Metrocard.
Arti
True, these two aforementioned locations are at extemes of this neighborhood. Houston at one end and 14th at the other. What if someone lives on AVE. B and 8th or C and 10th???
I wonder if the reason this neighborhood fell apart so bad was because it was not conienient and had little subway access.
"What if someone lives on AVE. B and 8th or C and 10th???"
Actually the bus service from C and 10th is extremely good. Buses every 2-3 minutes in rush hour, arriving at 1st Ave and 14th pretty quickly. On B, not so good.
There is a crosstown 8th/9th St bus that actually follows its published schedule, which is every 12-15 minutes weekdays and every 20 mins most other times. Major crowding east of Astor Place in rush hour.
"AOL INSTANT MESSENGER" How do you know the schedules. Do you live in the area? If you do, how has the area transformed it'self??
Just curious.
Marty.
"How do you know the schedules. Do you live in the area? If you do, how has the area transformed it'self??"
I live near 2nd and 14th, and my wife has trouble with stairs, so we ride the M14 bus a lot. The MTA publishes the schedule on its web site.
I don't get far east much, but it (a) definitely is much better than it used to be (outrageouly expensive even) and (b) was never uniformly as bad as its reputation. Some blocks were extremely dangerous, whereas 7th and 10th, facing on Tompkins Square, were a relatively gentrified way to walk east to Ave B even in the 70s and 80s.
> "AOL INSTANT MESSENGER"
Huh? Where did that come in?
- Lyle Goldman
Just a "HOMERESQUE" joke.
His handle is "AIM" on AOL that stands for AOL instant messenger. "AIM"
HAHAHAHAHAHHOHOHOOHOOHHOOHIIIHPOOAHAHJAGABABG God I kill me!!!
DHO!!
His handle is "AIM" on AOL that stands for AOL instant messenger. "AIM"
Actually, it's not. It's upper-case-A, lower-case-L, upper-case-M.
But isn't his handle "Al M."? An L, not an I, as in Al?
- Lyle Goldman
Had they built a station at E.Houston, they would have had to do a 2nd IND station, 4 or so tracks worth. It would have also been VERY deep. The depth issue probably precluded a station on E14th St/Ave C as well.
I suspect that if they had built the 2nd IND, according to the six track plan, they might have sent two 2nd Av tracks via Ave B or C to E Houston, with a station at Tompkins Sq.
I suspect that if they had built the 2nd IND, according to the six track plan, they might have sent two 2nd Av tracks via Ave B or C to E Houston, with a station at Tompkins Sq.
An earlier routing for the new Second Avenue Subway also had a "jughandle" that turned it east from 2nd Ave to run under Avenue A (IIRC) to provide subway service to the East Village. This always seemed very smart to me, since the Lex line swings east south of 14th and is only a few hundred feet from Third/Bowery by the Astor Place station. But the alternative was rejected, not sure why.
Also, I believe that one or more of the els turned east from Second or Third Avenue ... can anyone provide details?
There has been intermittent discussion about adding an Avenue A entrance to the easternmost BMT "L" station. Now that Stuy Town is privately managed and some of its apartments are being deregulated, I wonder if the management might push for this and/or kick in some funding. It really shouldn't be THAT expensive though they'd probably have to add elevators.
The distance from Ave D to Second is not as far as it seems, BTW. I believe that Avenues A, B, C and D are not spaced as far apart as the numbered avenues. They're also side-street width, not avenue width, so the neighborhood is smaller scaled (one of its appealing features).
"The distance from Ave D to Second is not as far as it seems, BTW. I believe that Avenues A, B, C and D are not spaced as far apart as the numbered avenues."
East of 3rd Ave the spacing is approx 3 city blocks as opposed to 4. So D to 2nd is 3/4 mile. Also, there is housing east of Ave D. So (a) it can be quite a walk to the subway stations at 1st and 14th and 1st and Houston and (b) if you're not near 14th or Houston it's even more of a walk. That's why the M14, with it's Ave A, C,and D extensions, is an extremely popular bus route, now that you have free bus to subway transfers and unlimited metrocards.
I believe that Avenues A, B, C and D are not spaced as far apart as the numbered avenues."
Yeah I think they are more spaced like the way Madison and Lex cut those blocks in half.
Again, east of 3rd Ave, it's 3/4 the spacing that occurs west of 5th. Equal to 3 standard city blocks, not 4 like 5th to 6th, not 2 like Madison to Park.
I think if the City was able to build their Second System from 2nd Ave-Houston to South 4th St. in Brooklyn, There would have been a station before it leaves Manhattan.
I think if the City was able to build their Second System from 2nd Ave-Houston to South 4th St. in Brooklyn, There would have been a station before it leaves Manhattan.
Yes, there was one planned: Clinton and Houston, where the spur from the 2nd Av Line to S 4th St would cross (under?) the continuation of the express tracks on the (F) Line in 2nd Av Station toward S 4th St.
When you look at this blighted part of town, it is a spread of 15 blocks without subway service. Houston and 2nd on the "F", then north is 14th street on the L.
We all know that the lower income society has less pull with government, IE Robert Moses in the 50's and 60's but this gentrification of "ALPHABET CITY" will be interesting to see if money, power, and politics forces a change in the system to give better quality of life to the upper income people moving in to this part of town!
There have been proposals for an "Avenue C jughandle" that would provide direct service to Alphabet City. One was called for in the 1960's bond issue that was supposed to have funded a Second Avenue line, a Queens "super-express," and other major system expansions. Needless to say, the jughandle and most of the other proposals died in the city's fiscal crisis of the early 1970's.
What if this would have been in a trendy upperclass part of town instead of the blighted, arson infested notorious sight it became, would the fiscal situation of the 70's have stopped it if the wealhty would have asked for it??
What if this would have been in a trendy upperclass part of town instead of the blighted, arson infested notorious sight it became, would the fiscal situation of the 70's have stopped it if the wealhty would have asked for it??
Since the Upper East Side hasn't gotten a Second Ave subway yet, either, I'd have to guess yes.
Well (to the surprize of no one), I just happen to have a plan for a new subway line in that neighborhood.
It is the 23rd Street Subway.
Starting ar Javits Center, it cuts crosstown on 23rd Street, and then turns south along Avenue C. Part of it passes through a new tunnel to Brooklyn, thence on to Jamaica Center by way of Myrtle Avenue.
The other part runs under Water Street to Whitehall Street.
The Avenue C Subway would ahve four tracks on a upper level while the LIRR/NJT service through World Trade Station is on a lower level entering Queens at the Sunnyside yards. Non stop service to Jamaica is via the Lower Montauk Line. Very fast, fery frequent, and NIMBYs be danged.
With the bulk of LIRR-Downtown traffic on the new line, the Atlantic Avenue line becomes obsolete, and reverts to the city for Subway use.
Elias
Where did you get this and when will tis be done . I'm sure Mr. Bloomberg has this all packaged in his budget!!!
Ops, sorry, I thought everyone understood that *my* plans were 99.999% Fantasy. You may find some drawing for this line on my website Subways 2020. The "What If" link shows what could be done on 23rd Street / Avenue C. This particular set of drawings is for an entirely new subway system on the premise that the city is a blank canvas on which to draw, but the 23rd Street/Avenue C part is fully compatible with what exists, albeit not of a high enough priority to ever be built.
Elias
Ha good one. I thought something more south would be more practical. On the J and F lines. Add more bus lines maybe! Those housing projects might scare off anything of an investment that the city or the T.A. might want to put in this area.
Afterall is this a trend that will last or will the city's infrastructure fall and after 9-11 will it get back into a rut of fiscal trouble?
Alphabet city is ave. A to ave. D between 14th and Houston. Also the F train 2nd ave stop has an exit at Allen st.
Alphabet City's problem is due to the shorefront on the east side of Manhattan. While the shorline on the Hudson River side is relatively straight -- widening out from the Battery to about 28th St. and then running in a pretty straight line up to the Spuyten Dyvil crossing -- the East River shore zig-zags in and out several times between 125th Street and Grand, making a north-south route through the area difficult.
Alphabet City had fairly nearby service up until World War II, because the Second Ave. el turned east at 23rd St. and went down to First Ave., with stops at 19th, 14th, 8th and Houston streets. But the neighborhood never had a great reputation even back then, and the Stuyvesant Town/Peter Cooper development after WWII replaced most of the old gas house district, which was considered a low-income, high crime area (at least by 1930s standards). After Stuyvesant Town was built, several efforts were made by residents there to NYCTA and later the MTA to build an entrance to the Canarsie Line at Ave. A, but while some studies were done, nothing ever has come of it.
As for the jughandle route (mentioned by Peter elsewhere in the thread), it was one of those ideas that was never really thought out all that well. The plan -- believe it or not -- was to start the line with the L at Eighth Ave. and 14th St. and run it east along the Canarsie tracks to Ave. C, where it would split off from the L and travel south to Houston, then turn west and hook up with the unused center tracks at Houston-Second Ave. and head north again along Sixth Ave.
There was supposed to be one stop, either at Eighth or 10th Street and Ave. C, and the line would have had the very unique feature of offering a transfer to itself at Sixth Ave. and 14th St. The route was to have ended at 57th St. and Sixth Ave. (pre-63rd St. connector, of course), but the idea of going through all that construction to build one station on a line that essentially went nowhere helped kill this plan even faster than the Ave. A exit at 14th Street.
There was also, IIRC, another proposal to jughandle part of the Second Ave. line even further south from 14th St. into the area south of Houston Street and then connect it up with the Rutgers Tunnel, which actually wouldn't have been that awful an idea. But I don't recall that one getting very far past the talking stage, either.
On WINS this morning I heard the tail end of a report interviewing Bob Diamond about the Brooklyn trolley project. It ended with "Bob Diamond's dream -- trolleys in Brooklyn by the 4th of July."
Does this mean he's resolved his issues with the NYC DOT over funding? Or is Bob just whistling in the dark?
No. That could be the date when work is finished on PHASE I of Bob D's trolley line. That would be a loop track that runs about three or four blocks from the BHRA headquarters and back.
BMTman
Were trying to keep things moving despite the "challeges". That's the official comment.
However, there are several irons in the fire with various folks trying to help make it happen.
Also, I think we have the entire "causality" of why certain City people have so difficult. I cant say what it is on a BBS though.
Bob D.
Thanks and good luck. Any way Subtalkers can help?
Yes- keep talking about it- it makes it that much harder for them to do what they were trying to do.
Bob D.
Sounds like another round of letters and email to the Mayor's office and the Brooklyn Borough President as well as the press ... I can't believe they haven't dropped their nonsense yet and put the project through. Just the TOURIST value alone makes it worthy, forget the practical value.
I guess they want tourists to go to some OTHER city for a trolley ride ... it's not like NYC is overrunning with the things ...
You could call it "Market Street Railway East"
When the Acela is running, are both power cars at each end powered? Or does it just run with 1 Power car?
Both are powered.
The Acela doesn't use MU's?
- Lyle Goldman
The Acela doesn't use MU's?
The original Metroliner was an MU train, but the Acela Express has a motor pulling and a motor pushing with unpowered cars between.
For the second time, I am posting this out to subtalkers regarding an ambitious subway expansion plan that I have completed recently. some of you have already responded to the last post made in November, and have received a good amount of info on it. I'm in the process of sending out more information in the next week, but right now if any of you who hadn't responded to the November post or for some reason missed it, here's your chance to respond again. It will make one hell of an entertaining read, so whether the ideas are practical or not, just let your passion for "railfanning" take you on a mystical transit journey. Leave your email addresses with me if you have, or post comments or questions here on the board.
Second Avenue Subway Homepage
I have updated documents concerning My Plan for the Second Avenue Line, I am asking all subtalkers to visit, read the plan (if they wish) download the station list (need adobe acorbat) and see the track maps. I need opinions, I know it will never come to life, but I wanna see if I'm good at coming up with solid ideas, so I can present this to colleges later.
At Canal Street, you need diamond crossovers so the line from Brooklyn can go to EITHER the Express or Local tracks.
You extend the Division A numbering system with your plan. This is further emphasised with your shared trackage with the 5 in the Bronx. However, you connect to Division B at 63rd St. Which division would your tracks be?
Because of the fact that I am using the center tracks of the Dyre Avenue line as opposed to the local tracks. It enables me to use B division cars. Just the express platforms have to be shaved a little to accomidate the B division cars.
So you're B division then?
One of the later IND 2nd sytem incarnations was to take over the Dyre entirely.
One of the later IND 2nd sytem incarnations was to take over the Dyre entirely.
If only the bits into Westchester County were still there!
Yeah, they never really realized the "& Boston" part !
I was told it stood for New York, Westchester & back
It was supposed to go to Boston. Needless to say it never went anywhere near it!
Where did it actually end (what intersection of current roads)?
Off hand I don't remember how far it did go. Someone else should be able to answer that. I don't think it made it out of Westchester.
Branches went to White Plains and Larchmont. If you look at a detailed Westchester map you still see long trips where no roads go through.
The Heathcote bypass in southern Scarsdale is the northmost indication of the ROW I know of.
Here's the reference for the map of where it went. It's rather buried in this website!
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/nywb/nywb1-02.html
I don't understand how the Dyre could become a B division line without turning the whole line from E 180 south to Manhattan into B division, because I don't think the ROW of the old Westchester is intact south of E180 St.
North of E180 on the White Plains line I guess could remain IRT standards, but the trains from there would have to run express south of E180, all times, if the platforms are shaved off south of there, because the gap would be to large at those stations.
How else can Dyre Ave be used by 2 Ave trains?
There would be a new line built through the Bronx to meet the Dyre Line. Some earlier plans called for a 2nd system line to be built like two blocks away from the NYW&B before it was taken over by the city...
(see the IND second system pages herein)
If I were being fussy, I'd say you should really use letters. The problem with using the Dyre Express tracks is that there is only one express station - Pelham Parkway. Even Dyre itself is a local station, although it has been rather messed around over the years. Using so few stops that far out leads to empty cars and wasted capacity. Despite this, it's a nice plan!
You have 4 tracks from Water St to Grand, but two at Whitehall. Whitehall is your restricting point for headways, then, and the quad track section is underused. In downtown NY, building 4 vs. 2 tracks would horribly inflate your construction costs.
You have a 4 track tunnel to Brooklyn, again, an unlikely proposition in this day and age.
The two tracks from SI and 2 from Brooklyn should form a 4 track line when they merge.
I actually like the way he has 4 tracks to Whitehall Street, as it permits branching on local and express without massive congestion at 14th St.
In general, you interlockings are not laid out sensibly. Look at the IND layouts for good examples of plants that are overdesigned and complicated, but in very good, helpful, flexible ways.
You have many places were local-express changes can be made, but very few places where reverse direction moves can be made. Some 4-track stations must be used to turn trains in emergencies.
_ALL_ river crossings need crossovers and traffic locking to enable one tube to be closed for late night maintenance and emergencies. This is super important.
You show the NB diverging tracks for 63rd street to be at grade. The portion of the existing 63rd st line with the bellmouths for this connection are built one on top of the other.
Ditto the SB connection to Lex Ave station.
Some provision should be made for turning trains at 42 st, 149 st, Gun Hill Rd(!!), & Gold st.
Also a trailing point crossover at the throat of the JFK loop could save yer arse.
If your connection to the A/C in Brooklyn is to fully bi-directional, it presents some moves that are extremely hard to protect. For example a NB move from the Fulton Line would have to wrong rail on the SB track for a couple of stations, or wrong rail onto the NB and immediately reverse. Not fun moves.
The express tracks should have access to the pockets at Utica. Are you using the empty station shell uptstairs @ Fulton street?
Move the X-overs at Myrtle/Flatbush to someplace north of the DeKalb connection.
You never say how many tracks you run --through-- from Bronx to downtown or Brooklyn (you don't mention branches to Queens).
It's not extending existing lines! You must add additional capacity, while relieving existing overloads!
Bronx needs six tracks of additonal capacity. So does Brooklyn. Queens needs serious competition to the Flushing line (an IND line from Sunnyside via 49th St to 11th Av, and then down to an el station over the Penn yards, running in Queens over the LIE).
CNN reported that the Feds are gonna spend $56 billion for 'subways' in Nevada, where they plan to dump atomic waste. Gawd, if you dumped the atomic waste at Fresh Kills and use the rest of the money to build new subways, we'd all be almost happy.
on the long express...
Put a few local stops(96,72,60,50)
MAKE IT TO BMT DIMENSIONS AND GIVE THEM LETTER ROUTES
I was wondering what was wrong with P, T, U, X, Y!!!
Someone once mentioned that some trains had a Lt Gray "Y" on it, potentially for the once planned skip stop with the L.
Maybe TA is saving the P, T, U, X and Y for the Second Ave Subway. I personally think the Q will be used for trains going uptown from 63 St. The V for trains going downtown. And maybe the T for the entire route.
THIS IS THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How do I make a basic subway car train shape with TSM?....I'd love to begin making an NYC subway car out of it.
Just saw on A&E a show with Joan Lunden[ex-GMA], called "Behind Closed Doors", in which she goes behind the scenes at various places...Well..today she went...Behind closed doors at ..The NYC Subway!And yes,it was geared to those who wouldn't know the F train from the Grand Central Shuttle [FULL of Gee Whiz statistics,such as decribing the shop building at CI as 'Bigger than three Yankee Stadiums!',etc,etc...]...but still fun to watch! The idea is that this show is very 'hands on', so she got to try out the TO simulator,open and close doors..and...operate the car crane at CI! Was real nice to see the stacks of cash in the money room too!
I saw the program, too. I found it pretty interesting - especially the Coney Island shops and the money room. (Joan said they weren't allowed to take pictures of the Money Train or disclose the location of the money room for security purposes.)
(Joan said they weren't allowed to take pictures of the Money Train or disclose the location of the money room for security purposes.)
Too bad no one told them the secret of waiting on a platform until 2 AM when the money train rolls around.
Sounds something like the History Channel "Hands On History" shows -- theyd id one recently on MBTA Boston, mostly their Red Line. The host got to run one of the trains -- and as long as he was in the cab, he was in Boston. They'd intermix passenger area shots, and they were NYCTA R44's, mostly around York Street!
How did the Flushing line work when it was jointly operated? I hear every other train was BMT or IRT. That meant every other train went to either Times Square or went down Broadway?
Prior to '42, how many Flushing line trains crossed the Qboro to the 2nd ave el? A famous sign pointing to the 2nd Ave el connection remained at a Flushing line station till the mid-1980s, I'm told.
www.forgotten-ny.com
This, from the Astoria Line section of this site, may answer your question. Apparently, the Astoria line never went directly to Broadway prior to 1949, but either went down 2d Ave or terminated at QP with a connection to the Braodway BMT.
>>Prior to 1949, IRT-sized trains ran on everything East/North of Queensboro Plaza. IRT trains ran through to Times Square and BMT trains terminated at Queensboro Plaza for connection to subway trains to Manhattan. The BMT used rebuilt el cars which were of IRT width on the Astoria line. (Prior to 1942, IRT trains ran from South Ferry via the Second Avenue El across the Queensboro Bridge. The # 3 ran to Astoria and the # 4 to Corona.) After the closure of the Second Avenue El, the # 8 train was on the Astoria Line until 1949 when the BMT took over the Astoria Line. In 1949, it was decided to extend the BMT Subway trains to Astoria and discontinue the joint operation. The Astoria line became BMT-only. A new connection was provided from the 60th St. Tunnel to the former Second Avenue portion of the IRT station, and the platforms were cut back there and along the Astoria Line. The entire north half of Queensboro Plaza Station was abandoned in October 1949, along with most of the flying junction. <<
I am assuming the 59th St Bridge connection to Queensborough Plaza was extant until 1949. This would allow direct service to the 2nd Av el.
I gather from the above post that trains from the 60th St. tube *terminated* at Queensborough Plaza, with transfers available for what is now the Flushing and Astoria lines. It would seem, then, that Queensborough Plaza once had something like six tracks. In years past, I do recall seeing all sorts of leftover supports from things long gone in the vicinity of Queensb. Plaza. I do know trains once ran on the 59th St. Bridge.
One also assumes the 60th St. tube was seriously underutilized.
I've also always wondered what the original idea for the 59th/Lex station was. As I recall, the 60th St line runs thru the middle, Lex local above it, Lex Exp below. It's almost as if they had the idea to send the downtown Lex local tracks to Queens, and the uptown local tracks west.
Unless I'm mistaken, the trackage across the 59th Street Bridge was abandoned when the southern part of the Second Avenue El closed in 1942. The BMT el car routes from Queensborough Plaza to Flushing and Astoria lingered until 1949.
We've covered the joint operation in depth before. Is it
on www.nycsubway.org? Here's the story condensed:
Both Astoria and Corona lines were built under the dual contracts.
There was a joint operation agreement between the BRT/BMT and
the IRT. Each station had dual fare controls and it was intended
that trains from each company would stop at either end of the
station. This arrangement was evidently never used. Before 1923,
the IRT operated all service on both branches.
The BMT had standardized on new steel rolling stock for its subway
division which was 10' wide. The Astoria and Corona els were
built to the narrower 9' dimensions but the platforms were designed
such that it would be relatively easy to shave them back and convert
to 10' wide cars. Originally the BMT was to have crossed the QB
bridge at 59 St. A station at Lexington between 58 and 59 st
was built for this purpose. It was determined that the bridge would
not support the load so the 60 St tunnel was built instead, and a
new platform constructed one block north. Portions of the original
BMT station are extant today (see the abandoned stations web site).
At Queens(boro) Plaza, BMT steels from the Broadway subway came
in on the northernmost tracks, upper and lower. The southernmost
tracks were always used for IRT trains from the Steinway tubes.
The next pair of tracks north came off the QB from the 2 Ave el.
The remaining pair of tracks were used to turn back BMT shuttle
el trains.
Because of the platform width issue, the BMT steels had to terminate
at QP. The BMT used various BU cars (they were not rebuilt
until the 1939 World's Fair) and operated a round-robin shuttle
service from Ditmars to QP to the end of the Corona line (eventually
reaching Main Street), back to QP, back out to Astoria, etc.
The IRT operated through trains of Steinway Lo-Vs from Times Sq
to both Astoria and Flushing. They also operated trains of
gate cars and MUDCs from the 2 Ave el to either terminal.
The dual fare controls were never utilized. In 1923, the companies
signed a revenue sharing agreement and the fare zones were unitized.
In 1949, dual service was eliminated, and the 10' option was taken
on the Astoria branch platforms only. The tracks from the 60th
St tube were swung over to south to allow through-routing to Astoria,
and the north half of the QP structure was demolished.
>>> At Queens(boro) Plaza, BMT steels from the Broadway subway came in on the northernmost tracks, upper and lower ... The remaining pair of tracks were used to turn back BMT shuttle
el trains. <<<
Your explanation was good except the northernmost tracks were for the BMT BUs, later Qs, and the southern tracks on the northern half of the station were the ones connected to the 60th Street tunnel.
Tom
Ooops.
>>> It would seem, then, that Queensborough Plaza once had something like six tracks <<<
It had eight tracks. The Northern half which was demolished was a mirror image of the part which remains in service today.
Tom
The BMT 7 Line was the Franklin Line The IRT 1st used the 7 For the Flushing Line in 1948-49 with the R 13s
Bob? Do you perhaps mean R12 or R14? Or is R/13 an average of the two types?
avid
Others have given you a good rundown of the services, though I don't follow that "The # 3 ran to Astoria and the # 4 to Corona" business. I never heard that the Manhattan el lines used numbers, officially or unofficially. Perhaps they did--it's a new one on me--if so, I'd like to see a list of the numbers and the source.
One nitpick--peoperly the subject line should be "IRT #7/BMT #9 line, pre-1949". BMT #7 was/is Franklin. Both IRT and BMT Astoria was #8.
You can read a little of the history of the IRT/BMT rights war on the line at http://rapidtransit.com/net/thirdrail/0011/64wf3.html.
If my memory is correct, I recall a rearrangement of the turnstiles on the Queensborough Plaza mezzanine when the fare went from a nickel to a dime in 1948. Prior to that, there was no free transfer at Queens Plaza between the IRT and BMT. One had to ride to a station on either branch that had cross-over-and-ride-back turnstiles. (Meaning, ride out on one division, ride back on the other division on the same nickel.) Prior to the doubling of the subway fare in 1948, there were few places where one could transfer between the Interborough and the BMT for free.
>>> I recall a rearrangement of the turnstiles on the Queensborough Plaza mezzanine when the fare went from a nickel to a dime in 1948. Prior to that, there was no free transfer at Queens Plaza between the IRT and BMT. <<<
According to a contemporary announcement about the termination of 2nd Ave El service from 1942 which was posted on Sub Talk, there would be a free transfer at Queensboro Plaza once 2nd Ave Service ended. Therefore I believe the turnstiles were rearranged in 1942.
Tom
Why on earth did both companies agree to such an arrangement? Even if the BRT decided on the 10' wide cars AFTER the agreement was signed, wouldn't the post 1949 configuration make more sense than 26 years of shuttles and overcomplicated stations? Did the Corona line generate that much more revenue than the Astoria line?
Did the Corona line generate that much more revenue than the Astoria line?
Yes. Much bigger service area.
Steve: BMT #1 Brighton and #2 Fourth Avenue trains reached Queensboro Plaza on August 1,1920. Although the BMT had trackage rights on both he Astoria and Flushing Lines they could not operate over these lines due to the size of the Standards. The BMT el cars could run there however and they did so starting on April 8,1923. Service was to be split 50-50 between the two companies. The IRT ran two services on each line. Either direct to Times Square via the Steinway Tunnels or to the Second Avenue El via the Queensboro Bridge. BMT service from both lines was terminated at Queensboro Plaza. Because Queensboro Plaza had been built for through service it was not possible to relay trains there in a normal pattern. Inbound BMT trains from Astoria relayed and became outbound Flushing Line trains and vice-versa. Track changes were made in preparation for the 1939-40 World's Fair that enabled the BMT to separate the two services. Express service began on April 24,1939 with alternate IRT subway trains and BMT shuttles running on the express track. 2 Avenue El trains always ran local in Queens. After the el was abandoned in 1942 through subway service was run by the IRT while the BMT continued to run shuttles to Queensboro Plaza. IRT service to Astoria ended on July 24,1949 and for the next few months the BMT provided all Astoria service with shutle trains alternating between the IRT and BMT platforms at Queensboro Plaza. Finally on Ocotber 17,1949 the BMT began through operation from the Astoria Line into the 60 Street Tunnel.
Larry,RedbirdR33
No Broadway trains operated on either line east of Queensboro Plaza. Both lines were built to IRT specs, and BMT service was provided by wooden el cars. BMT subway trains terminated at QBP.
I'm still in the dark as to how they collected seperate fares at the same station.
I'm still in the dark as to how they collected seperate fares at the same station
Oh, that's easy, they didn't. It was originally intended that
each station on the branch lines would have two zones. The BMT
trains would stop at the front of the station, the IRT at the rear,
or vice versa. This arrangement was actually built, but the BMT
never used it. AFAIK, the BMT did not operate trains north of
Queen(boro) Plaza between 1920 (when the 60 St tubes opened) to
1923, when BU el cars were brought over for the BMT shuttle service.
Instead of dual fare zones, the two companies entered into a
revenue sharing agreement. I don't know if it was BMT or IRT
employees that staffed the stations.
Dumb question: if the stations were intended to be divided to seperate BMT & IRT, wouldn't that have limited any steel subway train lengths to about half the length of the station?
Yes, it would have imposed a limit on the maximum length train.
At the time, there was really nothing out there, especially on the
Corona line, so 5 car trains were plenty. The dual zone plan
was never actually used. I've seen pictures of the dual fare
control areas during this time, but not the platforms. I don't
know if there was an actual fence there to separate the two
divisions.
>>> I've seen pictures of the dual fare control areas during this time <<<
Does anyone have a floor plan for any of the stations that had dual fare control going to a single platform? I have seen the drawings for Queensboro Plaza mezzanine, but at that station there were separate platforms for the IRT and BMT so dual fare control with each line collecting for its platforms was not so difficult. On the other hand, before turnstiles, the person selling tickets could just ask which line the passenger wanted. BTW, When was the turnstile first used in New York? The brief history of fare control on this site is silent about that.
Tom
The Cunningham & DeHart book indicates that turnstiles were
used by the BRT in the Centre St. subway in 1913, but the
PSC repeatedly refused to grant permission to expand their
use. The IRT began using turnstiles in the early 1920s and
the BMT followed probably around the same time.
The IND had turnstiles right from the start, AFAIK.
Going Manhattan bound from Flushing was a bit interesting this morning. I got on a train that left around 9:45am. At Willets point it is announced by the T/O that the train will run express to 61st-Woodside, due to a sick passenger at 103rd street. We run express and saw a train stuck at 103rd street, but after we passed it, it starte moving. It caught up to us at Junction where the "geese" looked confused at seeing a train on the express track on the weekend.
Most people got off and transferred to the over-crowded local. I chose to stay on and take it to the last stop, Queensboro plaza.
Before Woodside we switched to the local track. Ater stopping at 52nd street, it was announced the next stop would be Queensboro plaza. Battery run! Passed through the following stations blowing the horn and getting stares from confused geese. And I had the railfan window the whole way.
We terminated at Queensboro plaza on the lower level, where I got off and soon after a Slant R40 N came. Had a great fast ride looking through the window in the 60th street tube.
At Lexington I got the 6 and headed for Chinatown for the Chinese New Year parade.
Going back I went pretty much the same way. The 6 going uptown was packed, I just beat out most of the parade watchers to the station, and there were some tourists blocking the iron maiden entrance, fortunately an "excuse me" got them out of my way and I just made the uptown 6.
Got off at Lex/53rd and walked on over to Wendy's at 57/3, then took an N from Lexington ave to Queensboro plaza. It was a Hippo so the ride wasn't too exciting. Went downstairs at QBP for the 7. The window was available, but there was garbage by it from fast food leftovers, and there was some goo on the door that I accidently touched (foamers?).
The ride going back was uneventful, except for the hoards of people boarding at 74th.
It sounds like you had an interesting time today on the No. 7
#3 West End Jeff
>>> Went downstairs at QBP for the 7 <<<
You were returning to Manhattan?
Tom
Due to a weekend General Order, #7 trains were running from Main St. to Queensboro Plaza. During this type of operation, trains terminate and leave from the lower level.
my best video is on the #7
oh yes enjoy your railfan window......
while U still can ........
Why is this stop closed on weekends?
Because It is 1 block away from a station, and since it is a weekend, and this stop is primerily for stock traders on Wall St, few would stop there.
It has been closed for so long, we all forgot. :-)
Several years ago TA was doing work on the line in differnet places. Trains were going as far as Chambers or Canal or Essex Sts depending what they were doing that weekend. If it wasn't for Sept. 11, probably Bowery and Canal Sts would have been abondoned by now.
BTW I think the south end of Bowery was menat to be a transfer point to the 2nd Ave Subway.
I wish the J would terminate at Broad St. on the weekend. Not so much because customers really go there but so that J trains are able to serve the Fulton St./Bway Nassau complex. This also helps when the A or F have weekend GO's or reroutes due to miscellaneous service disruptions. For example, last weekend the Brooklyn bound F trains were running on the A line from W.4th to Jay. Customers on the J would have been able to ride to Fulton St. instead of having to double back via W.4th St. Finally, most J jobs on the weekday schedule do 3 round trips. On weekends due to the slightly shorter running time to Chambers St., the TA squeezes 4 round trips out of most of the J crews.
Wasn't this closure put in during the last NYC fiscal crisis?
NYCT saves money by eliminating the Broad Street tower job on weekends.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is no tower at Broad St. The master tower for the entire Nassau St. line is at Essex St. The office at Broad St. is for the Assistant Train Dispatcher (ATD) to clock in the trains, ring the bell for the trains on the relay track to come out and give starting lights. When the J terminates at Chambers St., the ATD works out of Essex St. tower along with the tower operator. Formerly when the J terminated at Broad on the weekends, the ATD worked at Broad and the tower operator worked alone at Essex.
Thanks. Serves me right for posting thirdhand information.
Bill, which tower controls the switches at the merge from the Nassau Street Line to the Montague Tunnel-- Essex or Dekalb
Neither. The interlocking is on automatic. The motorman punches for his lineup at Broad Street s/b and at Court Street n/b. But, I know for a fact that City Hall tower can control the switches at the Nassau cut. I don't know if Essex or DeKalb can control it as well.
thanks
Is this really necessary?
Sorry, Dave.
I just figured that, if you logged on to read Subtalk you probably also looked at your Inbox...
Perhaps you have perused a few posts of the upcoming get-together of a bunch of Subtalkers this coming October. Though it is eight months away, maybe it is not too early to think about joining us if you can. After all, you are the Big Cahoona of this whole shebang, and through your efforts a lot of friendships have been made. Of course, the idea of running into the likes of Steve8AVEXP, #1 Brighton Express Bob and #4 Sea Beach Fred should just make your day. I'm told Mark Feinman will join us and there are a few others who have tentatively said they will join us. Think about it. We'd love to have the big chief on board.
Upcoming get-together?!?
WHAT Upcoming get-together!?
Seeing Mark Feinman is worth ~THE~ trip!!
:)
Bewtween October 12-15 a bunch of us are going to New York to do some railfanning and some real RFing. Already about seven guys have said they will be there. We want to get those interested now, and later we can give the particulars as to where we will be staying and who is getting into town and when. If Mark is worth the trip, wait until you get a load of Steve, Bob and Fred. You'll be holding your sides until you need a cane.
I'LL be holding MY sides, that's for sure.
I know where I'll be staying: the Larchmont Hotel on W. 11th St. in the Village.
One down and about a dozen to go. Larchmont Hotel? What kind of place is tha? Is it a good place?
The main day will be Sunday. I will drive up ftrom Virginia on Friday, stay most likely at my brother s in Yorktown Hts, Sat a Wedding, Sunday take my wife to her cousin onYork Ave early in AM, and then meet Fred and the Guys an away we go.
The Larchmont is a bed-and-breakfast hotel, with a shared bath on each floor. They have small single rooms and larger rooms for two or more people. It's located between 5th and 6th Aves. and is a short walk from the IND W. 4th St. station.
I've been staying there during my visits to the city since 1996.
Ummm ... thanks ... I think :)
--Mark
Welcome.
He's a great documentary interview, folks!
Sure... keep me posted and I'll even run it in the Upcoming Events listing...
I sure will El Capitan.
I probably will be coming down before Spring and will also try to come this October and will definitely come to the Hoboken Festival if they are holding it this year.
This is shaping up to be the railfan excursion to end all railfan excursions.:-)
If anybody or everybody is up to it on Monday the 14th, we can top it all off with a diamond Q ride on the Brighton.
Is it a special offer of grainy photos some guy oldtime c/r with a Beatles haircut and long sideburns doing the nasty in various train cabs and all the women dressed like hippies?
OOoooo! Wah! Hippie chicks! Where's my cutout switches? This car's going dark ... where's my got damned church key? End door locked, woohoo. :)
That was intended for you and not Train Dude after that long blessing the cab string.
Had a feeling ... "if the car is rockin', don't bother knockin'" ...
Where are these cars, and what will happen to them?
Are the 110Bs back yet?
R110s were 'experimental' cars. One blew up a battery box several weeks ago at 180th....TA has been trying to get everything with wheels to run since 911. Just get into an R62 and dream. CI Peter
are you sure it was an r110a @ 180st.maybe an r142
It was an R110 series car that had the 'accident.' I do know that TA has been making efforts to get e v e r y t h i n g running and trainsets paid for will not be allowed to sit idle in the yards. The Train Dude can attest...a friend of his was injured in the blast.
were the nos.8001-8010
and what line the #2
You mean the R110A's are possibly making a return to service?
thats what on the juice is saying
After sources said that they were being scrapped, What a relief!
So it was the R110A that had the battery explosion problem, not an R142. And we had a whole thread on an exploding R142 battery not too long ago and a higher-up in the TWU calling for all R142's to be taken out of service.
The first explosion was a battery box on the Bombardier R142. The second was a R110A. R142s had vent holes drilled into the tops of the stainless steel boxes. There was also a series of incidents with the vendors that caught TAs attention. The TWUs involvement lacked technical expertise in my opinion and the whole safety equipment issue was blown far out of proportion. ANY battery of any type can explode with reason (like jump starting another automobile) and one should be wearing eye protection at all times but it is my understanding that the trainset incidents occured with closed battery boxes. I do not like union politics. CI Peter
I hope that they don't scrap the R-110As and the R-110Bs. They can be used for further experiments if need be. They should try to use the R-110Bs on the Rockaway Park shuttle. They can try to use the R-110As on the Corona-Flushing Line.
#3 West End Jeff
>>They can try to use the R-110As on the Corona-Flushing Line.<<
Ten cars Jeff, you need eleven for the Flushing Line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe the 42 shuttle?
Times Square may not be able to accommodate a 5-car train.
I'm aware that they normally need 11 cars for the Corona-Flushing Line. Would one 10 car be so bad during off peak hours?
#3 West End Jeff
No, that would do very nicely, thak you very much.
avid
I personally don't see why not, but the TA is another story. I feel one train wouldn't hurt. It's better than letting millions of $ rot in a yard.
You are absolutely correct. Why let a train that cost you millions of dollars rot in the yard when it can be put to good use.
#3 West End Jeff
The reason? If it costs you more to "put it to good use" than retire it. Costs to use it include:
Different spare parts inventory
Unique maintenance procedures/requirements
One-of-a-kind operator qualifications
...etc.
The R-110A and R-110B were specifically procured to demonstrate and prototype "new" technologies, and they accomplished those objectives. Sure, having two additional trainsets available -- and unique ones at that -- would be great from a service and railfan perspective. But the bottom line cost may not be worth it. I'm not saying I know the answer, but it's not a clear-cut decision.
So they should just throw a working train away, that's not even that old? I understand your point, but I can't see just throwing these two sets away. Can't they at least sell them or something, so they won't just be wasted? There must be some system that may want them.
A museum, maybe. (Even then, it can cost thousands of dollars per car for transportation to a museum, and there are costs in storage, track space, accessioning, etc.)
But an operating system would shy away from a "one-of-a-kind."
There are a lot of reasons why Southwest Airlines is the only major success from airline deregulation, and the only one to maintain the status quo post-911 (in fact they just announced they will hire 4000 people this year). One of the key reasons is fleet commonality: they have an all Boeing-737 fleet.
Perhaps Train Dude can talk a bit about the efficiencies and cost savings from minimizing car types at a subway maintenance facility.
Todd, if what you say is true, then these sets should be either downgraded or upgraded.
They have many common parts and systems with current equipement.
If one looks at a down grade, many parts have been removed from R62,62A,68,and 68A to create the four and five car sets. There must be somethings that can be changed out to allow these sets to compatible.
Your other direction is UP. The R/142As and R/143s must have come with a spare parts inventory. I'll bet the last r/143 is still on the assembly line.
If the upgrade can't be done in house, it should be made a condition of future orders. The Manufactures benifited from these test beds. So lets get them all in service.
Upgrade or down grade, but just don't take a do nothing stance. Thats theft.
avid
R110s have been sitting idle for a while. When the whole 911 thing blew up and the TA was looking to make up for the shortage created by Bombardier, Car Inspectors unknowingly put their lives on the line. The manufacturers should have taken back their crap and broght them up to safety standards BUT the wording of the contracts was probably fulfilled years ago. CI Peter
I'm not familiar with the R-110 consist. Is it like the R-142, with three B units between two A units?
If so, why not split it in two, pull out one or two B units, and put the two trains on the 42nd Street shuttle for the time being. When If the B units fail, you have some extras. When they all go, you can replace the trains with R-62A's (or order special shuttle trains, perhaps with wider doors and fewer seats).
How many cars run on each of the Franklin Shuttle trains. Can't they used the R110B there? THen cannibilize parts as need be. At least it wouldn't be a total waste.
GP38,
If these cars are retired, I'm sure the transit museum would love to add one of each car to their roster. It won't be the first time they've accepted test trains. -Nick
Could they use the trainsets for further experiemnts?
#3 West End Jeff
they could convert a 142a 0r 62a to be in the middle of the train
>>they could convert a 142a 0r 62a to be in the middle of the train<<
Noooooooooooooo !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-110B like the R-110A was an experimental train.the R-110B is still sitting at 207th St. yard and most likly will stay there until they finally decide to scrap it or something.
The R110B's look cooler than the R143's. I like how those modern-looking cars seem to emulate what Washington DC has and contain many of the R143's features, while retaining the colored route letters.
Also, I liked the R110A better than the R142/142A. The approaching train looked better without the red on the front.
I still say fix all nine cars and return them to service..........on the (S) Rockaway Shuttle. Three trains, three cars each, that will free up the R-44s for the (A)
Bill "Newkirk"
IIRC from this site, one R110B three-car set was "cannibalized" for parts for the other two.
they rebuilt it
So, actually all 3 sets (9 cars) are about ready for service?
yup, although they cannot all run in the same train
It's a shame they don't use the train for anything. Why not the Franklin shuttle or like someone stated, the Rock Park shuttle. Or the IRT one for the 42 Shuttle. They have it, it's not that old, why waste them.
"...will stay there until they finally decide to scrap it or something."
Yeah. Imagine the look on Charlie Tuna's face out in the Atlantic when the 110's take the final dip.
ps: not my wish by any means.
jrc
I visited the LIRR Port Jefferson station today to check out the recent rehab. The station building looks marvelous and nicely done. The station rehab program is restoring old station buildings close to original and building new ones that aren't that old, but that ugly. I can't wait to see what they can do for Syosset's oversized phonebooth !
You can check this out when riding the line and maybe for doing something I might do this spring. Take the LIRR to Port Jeff, ferry across the sound to Bridgeport and Metro North back to the city. I'll wait until the weather warms up a bit.
For your info, the walk down to the ferry is 1.1 miles as clocked on my odometer if a taxi ride is not for you. I picked up a ferry schedule and they can be found on the web at www.bpjferry.com
As for the yard at Port Jeff, it was a year since I was here, the perimeter of the yard has these high nice wooden windscreens to keep out the sound of those roaring DE-30s. The fences look nice, termites will probably be bused in !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I took the ferry back with my son when we went to Branford for the Santa on the trolley thing they had last December. $38 for me and my car (My son was free) I think I'd rather pay $3 for the Throggs Neck on my EZ Pass. Besides, the Hutch/Merit Pkway combo is much more scenic than the LI Sound. I took the other ferry a few times from New London to Orient and it was about $26, but that was by motorcycle, by car its about the same as Port Jeff/Bridgeport.
I took the ferry back with my son when we went to Branford for the Santa on the trolley thing they had last December. $38 for me and my car (My son was free) I think I'd rather pay $3 for the Throggs Neck on my EZ Pass. Besides, the Hutch/Merit Pkway combo is much more scenic than the LI Sound.
As someone who travels between Long Island and Connecticut fairly regularly, I definitely wish the ferry weren't so danged expensive. It's even pricey for a foot passenger, $9 each way IIRC.
Yes, they did do a nice job at Port JEff. I like when they restore the old stations. Speaking of ugly stations, and redoing them, I wish they would do something about Patchogue. The station is a non-descript "60's building (but still more attractive than stations like Syosett, Bethpage or Far Rockaway) and the parking lot is a diaster. It's a busy station, so it can still could use some help. It's a shame they ever tore down the original building, which looked like Sea Cliff on the Oyster Bay. It's not so much tat I don't like the current building, it's more that I hate the fact that they tore down the historical one in the 60's. But that was the mentality of the 60's - out with the old, in with the new. If maybe it would have lasted a little longer, it may have been restored.
Bill, and the rest of you guys,
Everything was done except the station platform lighting. They just replaced it with the permanent lighting on Saturday. The lights used to be white illuminated temporary lighting (replaced the old long poles), the same as the station building exterior itself, and the poles were a shade higher than the new ones. The cones are still there to cover up the holes on the platforms until patchwork gets put in place. I agree that the sound barriers must go, they have been there since the beginning of 2001, and looking into the yard from the sides makes things downright horrible. I live in Port Jefferson Station which is 5 minutes away from the station, and I go around it everyday. The residents are not aware of all of the railbuffs who take lots of pictures. Yes, Port Jeff is the best place in my opinion to take pictures, and for me a place that I will never want to move away from. Hopefully, more stations and platforms can get the rehab like Port Jeff did. The only thing that must be fixed up is the TV monitors which have been not working since the beginning of the rehab work there.
>> The only thing that must be fixed up is the TV monitors which have been not working since the beginning of the rehab work there. <<
These provide useful information when they are working?
They are always on Channel 12. They do provide information to passengers when delays do occur, but if only did they work.
For your info, the walk down to the ferry is 1.1 miles as clocked on my odometer if a taxi ride is not for you
Steep hill, though. Feels like two or three miles if you're going up! There's always the # 61 bus.
>>Steep hill, though. Feels like two or three miles if you're going up! There's always the # 61 bus.<<
That's why the trip from the station to the ferry is better. As for the bus, got schedule ?
Everything has to be timed so you just arrive at the dock before the next boat leaves, otherwise it's a long wait while you watch the seagulls !
Bill "Newkirk"
[... otherwise it's a long wait while you watch the seagulls !]
That's why summer is the best time to do it because there is a lovely resturant on a dock right next to the ferry where you can toss one back while watching those seagulls.
Mr rt__:^)
>> As for the bus, got schedule ? <<
http://www.sct-bus.org
If the bus service were as good as the web site, it would be the best bus service going!
I tried the ferrry once, but only cause I was on my bike and got nailed by the rain, and it was coolish and I wanted to be DRY.
It's $$$$, and they like us biker types to stay with our bikes...
Though the shore people wave you to the front of the lineif you've got a nice enough bike.
Oh yeah, it's slow as hell too. But ok if you want to get out of the rain :)
What happened to these cars after the dekalb accident?
Did they survive?
They are running in service. I have seen them frequently.
what damage was done to them?
They derailed so there was truck damage and if I remember correctly, the ends of the cars slightly collided with each other so a bit of body work was needed.
I have seen them on the Q.
I sides aren't as smooth as before on some parts. Mostly under one of the windows (center I think). You can probably pick them out easily. The ends are the same. You can't tell inside.
They re-entered service on the N line after the repair...it was a Saturday some time in Janaury 2001...the N's were running as a Broadway express during that time because they were doing the station rehab...
I still remember that day, I was at 14th St/Union Sq...I was so happy to see my beloved N using those cars...cars that shouldn't have been used on the West End B train in the first place...that's what happens when you lend equipment to irresponsible trains...
On Friday 2/15 my sister Nancy and I visited the Westchester Locomotive Shop to pick up some material I purchased from NYCT. In the shop was Locomotive #65 (GE 45 Ton,1975) It was receiving a TOTAL overhaul and air brake upgrade from Schedule 26NL to Schedule 26L (same brakes as an SD50). This 25+ year old unit will be outshopped in better than new condition. The pride and professionalism of Supt. Ron Anderson and his staff was apparent throughout our visit and I'd like to thank Ron and his staff along with NYCT as I learned a lot in the short time I was there.
John J. Blair
I recall the stories of heroism on the PATH, and of the safe evacuation of the station.
I do not remember anything about what happened on the IRT, except that no trains were caught in the station.
Were trains stopped before the towers fell? Or was it blind luck that nothing was passing by. What of the passengers? Clearly many could not have know what was happening when the entered the subway? What were they told, where were trains diverted to.
I do not remember seeing any threds on this subject, but mayhap someone would like to retell the story.
Thanks, Elias
Trains were stopped right about the same time as the fall of the first tower - whether or not it was before or essentially simultaneous with the fall I don't recall. It was discussed here on the board. Like the PATH train that evacuated people from the WTC, some subway trains did the same.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And even if a train was stuck at South Ferry, it could have snuck onto the Lex, so it wouldn't be stuck on the other side of Cortlandt.
Reports of two 1 line trainsets being trapped
underground.... Randy Kennedy wrote "The last
train on the 1 line" detailing the accounts
of the motorman whose train was the last to
escape Cortlandt St. before the tumble,
and the subsequent (postings) of two consists
being trapped along the loop somewhere/s...
You'd think that CC would've stopped all service in the area five minutes after the first plane hit.
Stupid question, who's CC?
Control Center.
All service was suspended for awhile, then it was put back line by line. Because of the proximity to the WTC, the #1 line was suspended at the time the beam crashed through the roof. As a sidelight, according to the TA employee newsletter, the TA says that the beam that crashed into the Cortlandt St. #1 line station came down from the 80th floor. Imagine the speed and impact of that heavy object!
Every time I think of that whole nightmare, it still makes me sick, but I know I'm not alone in that.
Last nite, I finally got the courage to go to ground zero. I did it mostly because I was on Murray St. for another engagement. It was like an obstacle course walking on Murray from Church St. down to the College of Insurance building near West St. Lots of road work in progress, lots of businesses' vacated. Later, I walked along Church St. past the WTC site. It looked like one big construction project. Since I was not familiar with the neighborhood at all, the magnitude of the devestation did not register to me. However, when I entered the E line station at the Fulton St. bumper block end of the platform it sure did! I worked the E line for 26 months until 6 to 8 weeks before the attack. Whenever I bought that train to the bumper block, a sea of humanity would get off and charge thru that exit, merging with an equal number of people entering the system. Now, the news stand was shuttered, the station agents' booth removed, 4 MVM's in the ghost town like mezzanine, the turnstiles blocked by gates, replaced by those aluminum maidens. The glass doors leading to the shopping area of the WTC gone, replaced by white plywood. Sure, I know it was a Saturday nite rather than a regular workday prior to 9/11, but even Saturday nights were always busy with tourists and New Yorkers. How freaky it was that it was so quiet there, how freaky it was that as I was looking out the railfan window, waiting for my E train to leave, not a soul entered the system through that area I always saw so busy!
I agree with ya,only once have i seen that end of the station when the WTC was there and it was packed with people.when i went there about a few days ago,i just looked around and i couldnt believe it.i felt so sad.I miss that shopping area so much.I liked it alot when i passed through it to get to a Bronx bound 1 train.I hope something really really good arises from where the WTC was.I sure as hell will love to go through whatever it'll be.
I can still close my eyes and see with vivid accuracy the details of the walk from the E train to the shops, the newstands, the ATM's, the coffee shop near Citi, the revolving doors into 1 WTC...
Now I know what the people of Coventry must've felt like after the raid.
At least the people at Coventry had an air raid warning them. People didn't know what hit thrm when the 1st tower was struck.
>>At least the people at Coventry had an air raid warning them. People didn't know what hit thrm when the 1st tower was struck.<<
And to add insult to injury, nobody would believe not one, but both towers would collapse, incuding 7 WTC.
Bill "Newkirk"
I just couldn't concieve of the large structures of steel which excude a permanance, could collapse so quickly and violently.
I hope the WTC doesn't end up an episode on "Great Blunders In History".
>>> At least the people at Coventry had an air raid warning them. <<<
Actually they did not get a warning. The British authorities were aware of the Coventry raid in advance through the use of ULTRA which broke the German enigma machine codes, but they did not want the Germans to know they had broken the code so they deliberately failed to notify the local authorities in Coventry of the upcoming raid in advance because any unusual activity such as evacuation of civilians could tip the Germans that their codes had been compromised. Such are the limitations of intelligence.
Tom
A great book detailing that story about Coventry and the British Intelligence holding back the information so as not to tip off the Germans is "Bodyguard of Lies" by Anthony Cave Brown.
I can still remember Borders, stopping there to get a break from the summertime heat, to use the restrooms or just walk around the mall.
I loved the place. And now it's all gone.
And who knows if what is built there will be as great as the original WTC was. Probably not, especially if $ilver$stein gets has way.
And who knows if what is built there will be as great as the original WTC was. Probably not
Unfortunately I think your right. It will be paradise lost. There is now way it will be as great a structure and complex as what was there. I still get very sad thinking about what has happened.
Hell i worked in 4WTC this summer and went to borders a lot. GoNTrain and myself rode in together every day. It was such a great summer. I miss those towers a hell of a lot.
I remember when those towers were being built.
>>, the station agents' booth removed,<<
Bill, I don't think the booth was removed. I believe they just buried it behind those plywood walls. I saw pix of 9/11 on Harry Beck's site and that booth was sandwiched between two tiled columns, where the plywood wall is now.
I agree with you that this area is like ghost town. Before there was humanity spilling through the turnstiles any time of the day.
Bill "Newkirk"
The place was like a City. Now it's the middle of nowhere, reminds me of a construction site in Jersey.
Yup it still boggles the mind. The scope of the disaster is unreal.
And I still can't get used to the WTC not there.
I had heard a report on that beam. 2' of it is sticking above the surface. If intact, it is 300' long. That means that 298' of it is embedded into the earth. The speed, impact and force are hard to imagine.
The TRAINZ sim is in stores (they say) and one person (someone here?) is working on a Franklin Shuttle ride.
Franklin Shuttle Thread.
I discovered this when I saw I was getting a lot of hits from auran.com and worked backwards from my raw log.
From steam high-wheelers to virtual reality. Way to go, Franklin!
Your quite correct Paul.
The Franklin Shuttle -- the line with 'Nine Lives'!
I picked up TRAINZ today and have been messing around with the "surveyor" mode - this editor is EXTREMELY robust and easy to use - it's about the complete opposite of the MSTS editors.
Anyone who is into model railroading should pick this up.
I am sure if I lived in a neighborhood that had the noisy El trains running outside my apartment window I may have been happy to see them go. But I wonder, since they were taken down...how has that impacted the overcrowding of the IRT? I wonder if the powers that be really thought the second avenue subway was going to be built (meaning it would have already been operating today)when they decided to eliminate one El line after the other. So the question remains, did straphangers get peaceful neighborhoods (as far as train noise is concerned) for a crowded IRT?
Please keep in mind I was not alive when the Els were running, so perhaps some perspective from those who did get to ride them may be helpful :-) -Nick
Well, *I* did get to ride the Manhattan 3rd Avenue El once upon a time, or so I was told : )
Never lived in those neighborhoods though so I could not speak to the quality of life issues raised.
I was watching the No 7 twist its way uo into Queens Plaza, on turn of the last century structure. Noisy old Els need replacement or rebuilding.
Since the Bronx Els cannot be replaced perhaps they could be rebuilt while running. From the ground up, replace the scructure by encasing it in concrete and sound proofing materials, with sound barriesrs.
I'll bet it could be done less expensively than building new lines.
Something to think about.
My own version of the 2nd Av is to send it east to 1st Av, into a lavish station (paid for by foreign powers) at the UN, then turn it into a modern el from 40th St south to Houston, thence as subway (perhaps via East 1st) as planned.
Wouldn't work - those stuffed shirts at the UN think they're too good for trains. Then again, maybe they'd change their minds if NYC were allowed to tow the cars of those parking scofflaws.
>>> those stuffed shirts at the UN think they're too good for trains <<<
Don't forget there are about fifteen workers per stuffed shirt, plus many tourists at the U.N.
Tom
I would be interested to view your 2 Avenue version.
>>> So the question remains, did straphangers get peaceful neighborhoods <<<
I used to visit a friend who lived on 28th Street less than a half block from 3rd Avenue, and the El was noticeable, but not overly loud. Any one living right on 3rd Avenue at the 2nd Floor or higher level would certainly have been annoyed by the noise, particularly on hot nights before air conditioning. The removal of the 3rd Avenue El did not bring a hush to the neighborhood though. 3rd Avenue remains a crowded street with increased noisy traffic on it. Only the periodic rumble of the trains is gone.
Tom
I think they were also promised a new subway under 2 Ave when they tore the 3rd and 2nd els down. I probably would have agreed with them if I had an apartment of one of those Avenues and was promised a new subway in it's place. Of course the subway never came. I feel the 3rd Avenue should have been kept until the 2Ave subway was built. (The el on 2 Ave had to go first to make it easier to build the subway, without having to worry about supporting the el like they had to do on 6Ave.) If the 3Ave would have been required to stay until the new subway was built, there would have been a much greater incentive to build it sooner. Plus if it would have lasted a few more years, no one would have allowed them to tear it down without the new subway.
>>> If the 3Ave would have been required to stay until the new subway was built, there would have been a much greater incentive to build it sooner. <<<
It is not quite that simple. The 3rd Avenue El was supposed to remain until the 2nd Avenue subway was built, but there was a tendency to defer maintenance on the El because it would be coming down soon to the point where it became a safety decision to either put a great deal of money into refurbishing the el or tear it down. Then it did not seem like a good idea to pour a lot of money into the el when it would be soon replaced, plus the real estate interests wanted it gone, so down it came with the subway still an unfulfilled promise.
Tom
The els had/have a certain charm to them. I'm not quite sure why. Maybe it's a nostalga thing. I used to ride the Myrtle Ave el to Sumner Av (the last time being 1962), the Jamaica BMT before it became the J and before they tore down part of it and the Flusing IRT.
I was at the NY Historical Society Museum on Saturday and did see a photo or 2 of the 3rd Av el. Why do we have such a fascination with this el, as opposed to the others that were torn down?
I was at the NY Historical Society Museum on Saturday and did see a photo or 2 of the 3rd Av el. Why do we have such a fascination with this el, as opposed to the others that were torn down?
It might be because the most photos survive of the 3rd Ave because it lasted the longest, when photography was improving and become more affordable.
>>> Why do we have such a fascination with this el, as opposed to the others that were torn down? <<<
Because more of us remember riding on it. Assuming conscious memories remain from about 5 years of age, you would have to be at least 65 to have any memory of riding the 2nd Avenue El, but only 52 to remember riding the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan.
Tom
That seems to be the theme for all items designated to be replaced. They begin to be neglected by those who are to maintain them. The R/1-9s the Els, the redbirds, the r/38s through r/42s M-1s. History keeps repeating. Yet when retirements are sudden and unannounced, r/30s and triplexes, it seems servicible equipement is scrapped. One must ask, Was a deal made? Are the maintainence groups to be trusted with plans for new equipement purchases? How can these plans be hidden to insure proper maintainence to the end?
avid
That seems to be the theme for all items designated to be replaced. They begin to be neglected by those who are to maintain them. The R/1-9s the Els, the redbirds, the r/38s through r/42s M-1s. History keeps repeating.
Minor nitpick: Neglect of the LIRR's M-1 cars didn't start when their eventual replacement was announced. It's more accurate to say that the M-1's never got adequate maintenance.
What was that expensive facility at Hollis all about? It was touted as the ultimate in a service facility, yet the M-1s are crappin' out, if we are to believe the same experts that called for the Facility to be built. (at cost overruns)
One gets a feeling that the same scam artist in auto service stations have affiliations in commuter and transit maintainence facilities.
Whom can you trust?
avid
>>> Are the maintainence groups to be trusted with plans for new equipement purchases? <<<
The decision to defer maintenance is not made in the maintenance group, it is made at higher levels which determine the size of a maintenance group and what it will be provided to do its job, as well as if and when new equipment will be purchased.
Tom
The Triplexes were sent to premature slaughter because the TA wanted to standardize the B division fleet; i. e., 60-foot cars and nothing else, BMT standards notwithstanding. Big mistake, IMHO, especially since the Triplexes were still in tip-top shape and running beautifully.
And still running.
The Triplexes were sent to premature slaughter because the TA wanted to standardize the B division fleet; i. e., 60-foot cars and
nothing else, BMT standards notwithstanding. Big mistake, IMHO, especially since the Triplexes were still in tip-top shape and
running beautifully.
At least we can take some consolation in the fact that the Triplexes had lasted 40+ years. Now the scrapping of the R30's well before their time, just because it was too difficult to retrofit them with A/C, now that was a big mistake.
I find it interesting they scrapped the Triplex in 1965 because it was an "odball" car in a fleet which was trying to be standardized into 60' lengths, then just 6 years later, they go ahead and purchase hundreds of 75' cars which were just as incompatible and restricted as the D types were.
It's ashame that this happened, but it does shed some light on what happened. I wish they didn't defer maintenance on the El, but since they did, you can't risk customers safety. Thanks to all who have given their input on this thread! -Nick
Story lifted from this week's Destination Freedom Newsletter.
Test train checks Michigan Line:
An Amtrak test train set arrived in Niles, Mich., on February 10 with all-Amtrak equipment which included (in order), engine P-42DC No. 28, Horizon coach 51003, Horizon café 53001, Horizon coach 54514, and another P-42DC, No. 36. The test train began testing the next day and continued checking grade crossing warning systems for 110 mph operation all week. The tests were going on between CP192 and CP147.
Ever since Mayor Bloomberg went into office we've heard two things from him. Terrorism and extending the 7 to Javis Center. After 9/11 terrorism has came to be a big problem. And since 1929 the need for a Second Avenue line has grown over the years. And since January first all we heard about is extending the 7 to the Javis Center. It seems to me that he forgot what New York has been needing for over 70 years. A full length 2 Avenue line. Besides from the obvious the 2 Avenue line can be used when there is an egmergency on the 4,5 and 6. It would of been useful Post 9/11 also. From October 24 2000 until today I saw how much overcrouding there is on the Lexington Avenue line. These two things was stated in a NY1 article
>>Pushing the 7 train past Times Square, its current termination point, would cost between $1.3 billion and $3 billion. That’s compared to an estimated price tag of $15 billion for the Second Avenue line.<<
>>The mayor's spokesman says Bloomberg supports both projects, but the city doesn't have the money to do both.<<
Is it me or is he picking what he wants over what is needed?
With the budget crisis that the city is going through right now, I'd be real surprised that either project get's built. 9/11 and the slumping economy has taken care of that.
Let's hope that we don't go back to the old days of "deferred maintenance" - ie run everything into the ground. The subways really have come such a long way.
The big project right now is to get the 1 and 9 between Chambers and South Ferry back online, then the north side of the Manhattan Bridge....
There's alot of work to be done even without those two big projects.
"The big project right now is to get the 1 and 9 between Chambers and South Ferry back online, then the north side of the
Manhattan Bridge...."
That's already been paid for. It's not part of this discussion.
The Manny B construction isn't funded by the MTA. And the Rebuilding of the 1 and 9 tunnel is to be paid by insurance money.
The obvious need for the 2 Ave has to become even more clearer after 9/11. Can you imagine if some major disaster happened along the Lex line (it doesn't even have to be terrorism). The East Side would have NO SUBWAY SERVICE for the duration of the disaster cleanup. At least around the closed 1/9 line there are other lines, so it's not as important as the Lex. If there was the 2 Ave at least there would be a backup, and the East side could still function.
The mayor's spokesman says Bloomberg supports both projects, but the city doesn't have the money to do both
If you owe the bank $180, they stop your account; if you owe the bank $18,000,000,000,000, they put you on the board of directors.
For anyone interested in Newsday today, there is another photo of them cleaning up around the abandoned PATH train in the station at WTC. It's much clearer than the last one, as they got alot of the debris away. You can even see the edge of one of the escalators in the station on the platform next to the train.
I saw that opucture in today's NY Post. I wonder if they will pull out the car onto a trailer and haul it back to New Jersey>
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anybody know what happened to the cars of the trapped PATH train at WTC? Presumably the damaged cars could be scrapped on the spot but were they or were they flat bedded back to NJ? Have any of the ok cars been flat bedded back to NJ yet?
Two stories in Newsday avout Lenny: how he makes money selling swipes and his arrest.
Does he get the chair? He'll probably get more jail time than any of the Enron execs........
Probably the only chair he'll get is in the Transit Police Station. Waiting for his ticket to be written up.
In Philadelphia, once you swipe a pass you can't use it at that station for another 30 minutes. If you try to swipe twice your card will be rejected the second time. Doesn't New York have any such safeguards?
Mark
In NY it's 18 minutes. That's why he had 7 funpasses. I think he sold tokens during the charge up time also.
Funny you should mention that. Both Enron execs and Lenny are working within an inherently corrupt framework set up by a government entity. Both parties behaved illegally, using a bogus "system" to steal from others. If Lenny showed up at an Enron board meeting with his "business plan," he'd have been given a cigar and handed a set of keys to the executive washroom. (Of course, he first would have had to find a way to disguise the fact that he isn't a middle-aged white male.) The difference is, Lenny made no monetary contributions to the MTA in order for them to retain a system which made it possible for him to profit from his scam. Neither does he have the same access as the Enron scumbags to legal defense. If anyone gets the chair, it should be the Enron execs and the members of congress who made it all possible in the first place.
I love how Newsday is teaching everyone how to use the Metrocard Scam.
>>> I love how Newsday is teaching everyone how to use the Metrocard Scam <<<
This isn't rocket science by any means, it is too obvious to need to be taught. Newsday has not revealed any secrets.
Tom
Except how easy it is for someone to do it.
But people who run the scam don't read Newsday usually. And people who do read Newsday usually prefer not to risk arrest for earning less than they do at their regular job.
>>> Except how easy it is for someone to do it. <<<
Duh! How easy it is to do is why Newsday is not giving anything away. This is something those so inclined already know. In Post No. 327545 before the Newsday story was posted, and having never seen a MetroCard, I explained the basic idea of purchasing multiple unlimited cards to sell swipes. If anything, the Newsday story pointed out how little the TA does to prevent this and possibly motivated someone at the TA to make the complaint that resulted in Lenny's arrest.
Tom
Maybe newsday will run a story about all of the "coffee and Bagle vendors that tow their trailers without taillights, safety chains, break and signal lights, and license plates and inspection stickers.
Tow a boat or camper without the above, and see how many points you get!
avid swipe
wrong, its trivial. The REAL story here is that New York is the only US city where there is such a hierarchy of hustes. emember the guys with the custumized parts of sardine cans? Nowhere else do the hustlers evolve such creative scams. Do I like it? whole different kettle of fish.
It's funny how productive scammers like him would be in real jobs. Everyone has to admit his "business" is very smart and clever.
Yeah, he certainly knows how to make something work for him...until he gets featured in newsday and ends up getting caught! -Nick
Well ... ya do have to admire someone DUMB enough to not only TALK to a reporter, but to identify himself and then let the reporter tag along. It's like the jamoke who's dumb enough to stick up a Twin Donuts a half hour after shift change. :)
LOL, Exactly!! :-) -Nick
So FEW Darwin Awards, so MANY takers. What can I say? Cops'll tell ya their job is often easy because criminals are not very bright usually. But this guy coulda made a killing had he sent a resume to Enron. :)
That reminds me of something I read in the police blotter once. Some guy robbed someone's house during the winter. As he was leaving he "wrote" his name in the snow with pee. Of course they caught him. It takes brains!
>>> It's funny how productive scammers like him would be in real jobs. <<<
I doubt that Lenny would ever be happy working for wages. It seems from the article that he is a natural business man. He invests capital and labor to turn a profit. If he were given a chance in a legitimate business he probably would prosper. I have met some successful business people who started their careers dealing drugs, accumulated business experience from that and later did quite well in legitimate businesses.
Tom
Exactly, he is master capitalist. I actually admire him his hard work, it cannot be easy constantly looking out for the police. Yes the undercovers are quite easy to spot, but all it takes is one error or missed read and your hit!
Tonight, I plan to honor lenny as I exit the IND at 179th St.
I will swipe as I exit and leave a freebee for someone.
Compliments of the Jamaica Yard!
avid
"I will swipe as I exit and leave a freebee for someone."
It doesn't stay there the way a token would. A friend of mine did a swipe with an unlimited card, got distracted, someone exited through his turnstile, and his fare was gone. He had to cool his heels for 18 minutes.
He had to cool his heels for 18 minutes.
Well you could always walk to the next station, instead of wait, but that depends on where you are. If you were at 28th on the Lex, it's not so bad to walk to 33rd, but I'm sure no one would be to happy if it was Broad Channel..........
It's a busy station. It wasn't wasted!
Free Lenny, Free!
avid
ok what is the ENRON crime here ??
....lol !
Getting a bigger fine and longer sentence then the crooks at Enron!
If he stole or redirected millions and zillions, he'd be interviewed by Congressmen and Senators, then thanked for his co-operation!
avid
I often see people giving out these 'guilt' pamphlets in various stations, including Main St.-Flushing on the 7. Is it, in any way, against the law to to do this?
Giving them out is not illigal.
But blocking the customer's flow on the train or the platform or a mezzazine is.
Panhandling is.
Causing litter is.
Making loud noise so that customers are not able to hear annoucements is.
Making loud noise so that customers are not able to hear annoucements is.
Tell the trains to shut up. :-)
Seriously, I have heard announcments being made about something happening on the line. But I (and others) can't hear it because of someone preaching.
Technically, it's soliciting, so it COULD be illegal.
-Hank
>>> Technically, it's soliciting, <<<
Unless the pamphlet asks for money, or asks the reader to attend a meeting, or the person handing them out has a tin cup (or other device to accept money) I doubt that what is being done is could be called soliciting. If it is strictly informational, i.e. "Repent, The End is Near" it would not be soliciting.
Tom
I often see people giving out these 'guilt' pamphlets in various stations, including Main St.-Flushing on the 7. Is it, in any way, against the law to to do this?
Solicitation of any sort is prohibited on subway property. This includes the distribution of religious pamphlets.
Is that solicitation?
>>> I often see people giving out these 'guilt' pamphlets in various stations <<<
What are ‘guilt' pamphlets?
Tom
SAVE YOUR SOUL FROM ETERNAL MISERY!
Well as I was exiting the Main St. station, I caught a glimpse of the cover of one of the magazines. it mentioned of how poor foreign countries are suffering from world hunger and how we must help them.
Yea and we have millions of people right here in the good old US of A that have no medical insurance and are too poor to save to send their kids to college in the future. Let's help ours at home first before we start becoming Santa Claus to others. After that we can do what we can. Let the damn Germans, Japanese, and Italians start doing their share. We rebuilt them after we kicked their asses in WWII. They can start doing their share for their fellow man. And goes for the Frenchies and the Brits as well.
Spoken like a Kennedy Democratic
I'm very hard to figure out, aren't I? But on that score you don't need a card. We should help our own first because many need it. I am an idealist.
>>> Let the damn Germans, Japanese, and Italians start doing their share <<<
Uh Fred, were you aware that each of those countries provide more non-military foreign aid as a percentage of their GNP than the U.S. does?
>>> And goes for the Frenchies and the Brits as well. <<<
Yup, them too! :-)
(Source: http://www.cbpp.org/4-25-00bud.htm)
Tom
Of course they do because they spend diddily squat on their military and depend on us to defend them. What a crock of crap that is. We have to defend the Germans, Japanese, and Italians. We had to fight for our lives to defeat those guys in the last great war (well not the Italians, they were pathetic). So yes, they can give more in non-military foreign aid, but let me ask you a question. Which costs more, non military aid or military aid? I rest my case. It costs us a hell of a lot more, and when we have to take action to defend our interests and theirs, they and the Frenchies (whose asses we saved twice in the last century), tell us we shouldn't do this or do that while they appease, appease, and appease. Those bastards have learned nothing from the past. The only nations that we can count on is Britain and Israel. If they want our help they can get it, but as for the rest I'd like nothing better than to give them a real lift====with the tip of my shoe.
Fred, this is getting dangerous. I'm finding myself agreeing with you twice on the same day.
Stop the presses!
But that doesn't hurt much does it? Come on, admit it. I'm really a nice guy in bad guy clothing. You're getting to see the real me. Good to know we agree on this, too.
>>> but let me ask you a question. Which costs more, non military aid or military aid? <<<
Wow, Fred, first you bitch that others are not providing foreign aid, and when it is pointed out that they do, then you gripe that the U.S. spends so much providing weapons to other countries. Who do you think is behind the massive military aid? The American weapons makers of course. They are the ones who get the money for providing the weapons, which do far less to "aid" the recipients than medicine or sacks of rice.
Tom
Wow, Fred, first you bitch that others are not providing foreign aid, and when it is pointed out that they do, then you gripe that the U.S. spends so much providing weapons to other countries. Who do you think is behind the massive military aid? The American weapons makers of course. They are the ones who get the money for providing the weapons, which do far less to "aid" the recipients than medicine or sacks of rice.
Not only do we provide weapons, whose cost is far more than food and medicine, but we also spend the blood of our best and brightest.
As for military aid providing less than medicine or food, the freedom that our military aid provides is the essential precondition to everything else. According to your reasoning we should have dumped medicine and rice into Auschwitz instead of aiding the Allies.
Weapons makers are not "behind" military aid. A just America seeking to expand freedom is.
I guess you went to the same school that Jon Walker Lindh went to.
Alan Glick
Wow Alan, that last sentence equating the American Taliban with Old Tom was a pretty tough indictment, but Old Tom is probably one of those old type American radical-liberals who find it easy to criticize the US while giving those ungrateful kruds overseas a free ride. Medicine and rice are fine but they are not going to defeat terrorism on our country, either in the sky, the subway, at sea, or in our infrastructure. Military muscle will do that and that is a sad fact of life. And I repeat again for Old Tom and the rest of those out there of his ilk on this matter. We can only count on Britain and Israel to fully back us while the rest of those "friends" of ours make all kinds of pathetic excuses to do nothing but appease.
what does this subject have to do with
"Freedom of Press...in the Subways!?!".
if i may ask here ??
thank you .....
Read the other posts Salaam. There was reference to helping other countries and it got my dander up. We help American first.
now i think i get it !
i thought you were saying freedon of the press
to do a news story or subject on the subway !!
or at a subway location .....
sumptin' lika' dat' ....
The TA use to have some of the trains start and end at 137th St. When did they stop? To help out the overcrowded trains, what do you think about the TA strating some trains from 137th st again?
I'm not sure when it stopped, but I think it was around the time of 1 and 9 skip-stop started. I don't remember seeing 1's signed up for 137th Street service for sometime now. I could be wrong......
Starting trains from 137th won't happen until service is resumed to South Ferry, if at all..........
What was the reason for adding the 9? Isn't this duplicate service or does it have something to do with skip-stops?
Thanks.
The 9 ran skip stop with the 1 on the northern end of the line.
Up until about 1958 or 59, #1 trains from 242 St. switched to the express tracks at 96 St and ran express to Brooklyn. Trains from 137th St. ran local to South Ferry. Starting in 58 or 59, all Broadway trains ran local to South Ferry and all Lenox Ave trains ran express to Brooklyn, to elimintate delays at the crossovers at 96 St. However, the continued to short-turn half of the #1 line trains at 137 St weekdays for many years after that.
-- Ed Sachs
That may be a better system than the skip stop service they do with the 9. That way, pasengers starting way up at the top don't have to sit through all the stops below 137, but passengers below 137 still have good service. Forgetting about the service after 9/11, would it be possible to fit the 1 as an express with the 2/3. Why not start the 1 at 242 and the 9 at 137 and forget the skip stop.
Best idea is to start both 1 and 9 from 242d St., run'em both local to 168th, then run the 9 express from there to 96th in the peak direction. Yes, I know, there is no express track between 168th and 145th, but the 9s could still skip 157th and 145th without bumping into the previous local.
Now, if they could take the next step and run those 9s express below 96th, then they could add additional 1s starting at 137th to calm dowm the customers below 137th.
In those days, all of the trains made all of the stops. There weren't any trains using the center track between 96th and 137th except for the occasional GO.
-- Ed Sachs
Up until August 1989 with the introduction of the 9, alternate 1 trains used to turn at 137 St from 830AM-530PM. Northern portion passengers used to complain about the awkward timing and crowding. Initially the skip stop pattern of the 1/9 was supposed to extend all the way to 116 St I think with a couple of more stops (181) labelled a skip stiop. But, due to community oposition, any station with more than 8000 passengers a day was made "all stop". If I dig out the literature from then, I could be more specific. I do remember at one meeting, Upper Manhattan passengers were VERY opposed to any skip stop service!!! TOny
And Bronx Passengers!!!!!!!!!!! I hate it hate and hope the 9 never comes back........
Absolutely. Ridership is much higher south of 137 than north. Local service should be seriously increased south of 137 and perhaps decreased a bit north of 137. Skip-stop was a waste of money.
I took advantage of balmy, 60-degree weather yesterday and drove out to check out the latest progress on the Central Platte Valley Spur.
Virtually all catenary is now in place along the entire line. Work crews are making final connections to the original line during weekends in February. Most of the concrete for the boarding areas at Union Station has been poured, and track rails are now embedded in concrete all along 16th St. to the point where the line joins the Consolidated Freight line and runs next to it. The grade crossing at Walnut St. is nearly finished, with concrete surrounding the tracks. Only the center islands on either side of the need to be formed. The crossing at 5th St. is nearing completion, with half of the concrete already cured and half still covered. The crossing at Curtis St. is still stone ballast. Only finishing touches remain to be appplied to the four new stations. The walkway to the access tunnel at Union Station looks really nice.
I took a picture of car 115 already signed for 30th Avenue as it turned from Stout St. onto 14th St. via the normally-unused turnout. Visible in the backgound is what's left of Currigan Exhibition Hall. Earlier I spotted car 101 running down Stout St. carrying 14th Street signs. In both cases, the roller curtains were still original. I would imagine the cars will get new curtains before the spur opens on April 5. It won't be long before test trains will be running on it.
I've heard two different plans of events tomorrow, one from here and one off of here. I have some questions, what time is it tomorrow, is the public allowed, where is the pickup spot. Thanks!
I understand that it's just a message board, but I just saw on Channel 7 that the event was TODAY, train dude suggested it was tomorrow. Whatever, I'll go hunting at 1, look for a kid with a backwards fitted yanks cap with an Olympus C-3000z.
I saw the story on the 11:30 AM news on Ch.5. I am suprised it happened today, a holiday, till I saw King George. Another photo op for him, and since today is a quiet newsday, he figured he would get the tv exposure. He rode the train from Eighth Ave. to First Ave. After he got off, Ch. 5 showed footage of him getting into one of his SUV's!
Selkirk called him right - Paturkey!
Heh. Yeah, I once worked for the little prick ... gobble gobble. :)
What is the Average Speed in the tunnel from brooklyn to manhattan? And what is the average speed it does from station to station?
I just got a room and my Amtrak Tickets.
The Comfort Inn @ W Diversey Pk rased there rate on the web right after I called them to get Info. They have a convcetion in town this week. I did book at the
Comfort Inn O-Hare
2175 E Touhy Ave
Des Plains,IL
They have free shuttle to and from the Subway, A called aready about it. They say it's about 2 miles from the Blue line.
So if any one in Chicgo want to meet up with me just E-Mail me and we can araing something. I figure you guy know your was around the system.
Robert
look out for the housing projects on the west side of Chicago. Around the united Center is a rough part of town. Pulaski ave. is a run down street. Robert Taylor homes on the South side were supposed to be demolished, you might want to take a look but be carefull. That used to be the poorest stretch of living in the US along the Red line. the Dan Ryan Expressway.
Enjoy, be safe, it's a rough town.
I not plaining to stay on the train pass amybe 11:00pm or so. As for bad parts, I will keep my eyes open.
Thanks
Robert
I might have been a little over the top. Many Urban areas have their problems. Downtown Chicago was one of the cleanest and most beautifull city scape I've seen anywhere.
The West side and South side are the places to avoid and if you plan on riding later at night, not everyline is open 24 hours. Ha! I found that out the hard way.
Enjoy...
I was looking at the schudel today and saw that. The part of the Blue line that I am on does run 24/7. I also just found out the the 3 day pass that I order dose not work on Pace Bus system, the way one of the infomation person told me has me riding three buses two of them Pace. I just thought that it like the Privist line in NYC, That they a % if someone uses the Unlimted cards.
Robert
Rob, have you been on the loop downtown yet??
Great way to see it. How about the Green line out to Harlem. This is the one i got caught on during the day. It goes throug some of the nastiest neighborhoods I've seen. Vacant lots, abandoned cars, burnt out shells, boarded up tenements. This really reminded me of the South Bronx twenty years. I was down there in l998. No doubt that in 4 years things have changed. This line I found out closes at 1 am. Don't get caught out there without a ride back. Not many cabs are driving to that part of town.
Now the South side the Red line is open 24/7. The Robert taylor homes are in this area. This is one of the toughest parts of the US, along the dan Ryan expressway. They were supposed to tear them down. Do you know if they're still up???
Enjoy your trip, altogether Chicago is a beautifull town.
Marty.
I got a PS2 and I wished that the MTA would make a limited edition 128 bit graphic game of the lines of the system with random signalling. Like the 4 line, the Q line (brighton express) and the A line and the 2 line. I would never stop playing that and if they offered the gas and brake I would so buy it despite the cost. Then I would be playing video games non stop.
Would you buy if it came out for any videogame system?
Even though I don't have a PS2 yet I would since I was a subway fanatic for 10 years.
I would buy it.
I've got MSTS and I love it. It's very relaxing.
YES! I'd buy PS2 and play it.
i wish .i have ps2 already
I suppose I'd like to see one for the Gamecube. Maybe if MTA/NYC, NJT, SEPTA, MTA/Maryland, and WMATA made one together. Now THAT would be enthralling.
Thank you, R6. If the MTA were to consider a Subway Sim, why should it be only for the PS2. I'm very sure the Gamecube equals it in capability.
Yes I would. Unfortunatley, my wife would take it from me to prevent me from playing it 12 hours a day.
I'd like a scratchy 150MB VGA graphics PC version :S ok, I'm exaggerating...
I'd buy it if it were for PCs- especially if it ran on PCs that are not brand new.
I noticed that all of the M-1 LIRR cars I ride all start with a 9. Any idea why?
I believe that it's just a series number. Just like all of Metro North's M-1's start with an 8.
Because when LIRR first put them in service, the only place that had a gap big enough for all 620 cars on order was 9000 series. They had all the other "thousands" filled somewhere or another.
000-999 were some diesel hauled cars and m.u. trailers (ping-pong)
1000-1999 were some m.u. motor cars
2000-2999 were all the 1955-1963 P-S stock
3000-3999 were RDC's (well, 3101 and 3121....)
4000-4999 were rebuilt m.u. control motors
5000-5999 were rebuilt m.u. motor trailers
6000-6999 were rebuilt mu. trailers
7000-7999 were various diesel hauled coaches acquired from other RR
8000-8999 were various diesel hauled coaches acquired from other RR
Which left the 9000-9999 series as the only clear one in 1968 when the first M-1's were delivered. Makes sense, huh?
To this, I add:
Why do all the r-36's Start with a "9" ?
Eesh.
I've been hearing rumors that the r62's will dominate the 7 soon. I believe it too since i've commented on various posts. Hence they say seeing is believing. so if anybody has visual proof of r62's in corona, please post 'em up. once again. im not saying i dont believe the rumors, i do believe 'em. i just want to have visual evidence of this beneficial transition from the redbirds to the shinybirds.
It HAS been posted. Click the link under "Newest Images".
yay!!!!!
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r62/r62-2155.jpg
for those who want to see it
pity though the rollsign was too bright to read, lol. i really wanted to see the big (7) as if its saying "look at me!!"
If you look at the archives in this site, you will see a R62 set testing on the Flushing IRT in the mid 1980's.
The car #s are for the redbirds that is 9585/9584 the R 62As are: 2151 and 2152. 2151 is the car next to 9585. 2152 is the car next to 9584. ALL 16 of Coronas R 62As have 7 signs displayed on them.
i know this may sound dumb. but do the r62 rollsigns have the circle and diamond 7?
See this:
Where was this picture taken? It doesn't look like Corona Yard to me.
It is Corona all right. I just don't like seeing purple bullets on the front of the R62As!
A strange sight indeed!
Strange bedfellows: Sort of like a May-December romance.
These look like models to me.
I agree, the photo looks staged, the trains are too perfectly aligned.
Tell that to Dave or whoever it was that took the pic.
No I didn't mean it that way, it just looks too perfect with the trains perfectly aligned, like when they stage nightime photo shoots. I know that is not what it is, but you have to admit it looks like it.
Fabulous...I've been waiting for photo proof of the R62A's at Corona. It's not like I didn't believe you guys or anything. All we have to do now is wait for them to be used!
the more pictures, the merrier
Yeah, I'd like to see some rollsigns in the next pic.
Here's another picture of a 10-car train of R62's on track 24 of Corona Yard. Scroll the IFrame down to see it. It's worth the wait.
For those who can't do <tt>iframe</tt>, click <a href="http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/33/09.jpg">here</a>. The real image is located at http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/33/09.jpg, but click on the link before going there directly.
I guess we won't be calling the Corona car washer a birdbath much longer.:-)
seems stage, the buffer seems a wee bit too clean.
Why that Redbird is humping the Silverbird?
Some photos of it here:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/nyrail/msg0213314585690.html
Thanks for posting that, I saw the B/W verion of one of those photos in newsday. It's nice to see a color version.
Thanks.
It's really wild to see all the way down to the old station.
Fpr those interestedf, it was also in the Post, Car 140.
I saw something similar on Nightline a few weeks ago. I made a screen capture.
I noticed on several cars of R38s on the A line . I appears some of the roofs have been painted. Will they paint the rest.
I meant roofs, sorry about the typo
Painted what, silver or ??
silver
It's a band aid remedy until the 160's are ordered and come on the line. The paint is likely to hide the cover plating used over the roofs of these cars. 38's are 35 years old, prime time to retire.
Prime time for those lemons, that is. The similar-looking R32's are older but were built better. As noted in various previous posts, the R32's are expected to still be around, after the R38's are gone.
>>The similar-looking R32's are older but were built better. As noted in various previous posts, the R32's are expected to still be around, after the R38's are gone.<<
Edwin Gowen Budd must be smiling down from Heaven knowing that !
Bill "Newkirk"
> Edwin Gowen Budd
Was that a real person?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Edwin Gowen Budd
Was that a real person?<<
That indeed was the father of the Budd Company, it's founder.'
Bill "Newkirk"
God bless him. Too bad he didn't get the R40 & R42 contracts. They'd still ave 12-15 years of life left.
Aka Mr. R-32.
If they are such lemmons why are still giving ver dependable service. I do not see any R32 when I take the train. I onlt see R38s on the A and C trains.
In 1966, before the R38's my I recall R10's on the A and R1/9's on all other lines (AA/BB, CC, D, E, F, GG). I think there may have been one or two trains of R1/9's on the A in rush hours.
I recall the Queens lines had the higher number R1/9's. I also recall the Concourse lines (CC, D) had lower numbers. I do not recall if the WH lines (A, AA/BB) had a different fleet than the Concourse lines. Does anyone remember? If so which had the lower number cars?
Bzuck, thanks for the info==for whatever it's worth. All I know is that the next year they started putting your IND and my BMT together and the result was a pile of junk. It wasn't the TA's finest hour when they did that and we BMT fans have been paying for it ever since. And why were your cars so damn dirty? BMT cars always looked fresh and clean.
It's a CONSPIRACY, man! :)
Because 95pct of the IND was underground, and they never saw the sun or washed in the rain.
Heh. Yep, knew that ... and grabbing for the windshield wiper was its own revelation as well ... then again, back in those days, that they RAN was good enough for most folks ... nowadays, people whine if the floor's a bit sticky. :)
I think the R1/9's didn't have windshield wipers when new. Didn't the TA (or whatever it was called then) add those hand operated wipers when the IND took over the Culver line?
Most of the cars I ran didn't have them even AFTER they met Mr. Sunshine. Made shooting balls amusing during downpours. Had to figure out if that yellow was on your track or one of the others. Of course, you could drop your window, reach around and wipe the windshield and operate sorta sidesaddle, but it'd only get wet again (and you) in pretty short order. I woulda settled for a handwipe. :)
I'd like to take a 20 yo straphanger back in time to the year he was born for a ride on the J train. I'm still amazed we New Yorkers accepted a subway system in such deplorable condition.
It CERTAINLY would make people today MIGHTY grateful for what they have today.
Now, Fred, you and I finally agree on something 100%. They should never have allowed that rolling rubble to desecrate the BMT. And they were dirty because they (1) were never cleaned and (2) never saw the sun or rain.
See Q, just give it time and I'll bring you around. Or is it the other way around? Glad we register on this one.
It wasn't until the 60s that car washers came into vogue.
As for the R-10s, they happened to be wearing my all time favorite paint scheme in 1966 - the racing stripe teal-and-white job. A year later we moved to Jersey and I became an A fan and IND man for life.
You don't mean they actually washed those graffittied disasters in the early 80's? I do member as a kid using the M train to Metro every day, that while the train waited there to begin it's run, they would actually wash all the windows in the interior of the cars (graffiti R27-30's), and mopped the floors. It's right before the time the R27 redbirds started appearing. It always struck me as funny because the rest of the train was a disaster-------------but it had clean windows!!! (I guess a step up from when you couldn't even see out of the windows because trhey were painted over.
To be honest, I don't know if they even used the car washers in the early 80s. I left the East Coast for Colorado in September of 1980 and did not visit NYC again until October of 1984.
I saw quite a few obliterated windows back then myself, including a whole side of one IRT car which had what appeared to be an entire can of paint just splattered on it.
Ahhh, the bad old days:
Yeah, I remember it well. Ugh!
You sure there was graffiti in the mid 60's? I thought it became a problem around 1969 or 1970. Someone clue me in on that because I have been under the wrong impression if this is not so.
No, the trains were still clean in the late 60s. Graffiti tagging didn't reach epidemic proportions until 1972. By 1973, almost every piece of rolling stock had been desecrated.
And to think that 1973 was probably the best year of my life.
My subway riding was down to near zero by then. I was in the city on two occasions that year on which I rode on the subway: July 7 to see the Mets and December 27. Little did I know I would not set foot on the subway again until July 28, 1976.
Good God Steve, I went 20 years between riding the New York Subway and I thought I got over it when on the plane for my first journey back to the Big Apple in '74 I got the itch again. The first thing I did when I got back was after a good night's sleep I drove my rent-a-car to Queens Plaza, took the 4th Avenue Local to 57th Street and took the Sea Beach to Coney Island. It took me a good half hour to catch the train because I was looking for a Triplex #4BMT and by then both were gone. Finally I asked someone and they clued me in.
20 years is a long time indeed. The longest I've gone without a subway ride in New York is four years, between 1980 and 1984. It's just as well; I missed the darkest period in the subway's history.
At least the N was still running express along Broadway and 4th Ave. and via bridge in 1974.
There was grafitti in the FIFTIES ... but it wasn't until KRYLON that it became *HUGE* ...
I think that some of the the LOWEST (R-1) and most of the HIGHEST (R-7, R-7a, R-9) were all out of Jamaica Yard. Concourse ran all the R-6s and some of the R-4s. Also 207 Street ran the remaining R-1s and R-4s. I have this one in my notes somewhere, have to go digging for it.
wayne
If you could find those notes that would be real interesting!!
So that means the D had the thoroughbreds of the R-1/9 fleet at that time. I wonder if 1233 ever got up to A-440 on the CPW dash.
From the pictures on this site in the late 1960's, it seems that the R1's and R4's dominated the CC & D lines, the R6/R7/R9's dominated the Queens lines.
Yesterday I say a Metro North coach way down here at Philadelphia's 30th Street station. It was at the end of a train of NJT cars, too. I can understand why the Metro North car was hooked with NJT cars, as MTA and NJT cooperate on certain lines, but I'm not sure why they were at 30th st. Did an MTA ca somehow end up on an NJT Atlantic City train?
Mark
NJT coaches are often seen at 30th St yard. These are both going to rehab and returning from it, although I'm not exactly sure where the rehab is taking place.
NJT coaches are often seen at 30th St yard.
NJT coaches are also seen at 30th Street attached to a GP40PH-2 that just pulled them in from Atlantic City.
What type of Metro-North car? Blue or black stripe? Blue striped ones never leave the Hoboken division, and black striped ones rarely do.
Good Im glad I wasnt the only one that noticed a Metro North car at 30th Street Yard. I couldnt really tell. I was driving down the SureKill Crawlway. Haha
I think I've asked before, but I don't think I got an answer:
Has the Canal Street J/M/Z platform been renovated to look like the 4/5/6, N/R and Q/W platforms? Or are they still in the same design as in 1913?
And also, when will the eastern tracks for Bowery and Canal for the JMZ going to be abandoned?
-J!
Canal was renovated on the JMZ very nicely, restoring all the old tilework and installed "granite" tile flooring, like they have in many stations. It looks quite sharp on the Broad Street bound side. Of course the Essex St bound side looks as crappy as ever. I think they will begin the construction soon on abandoning that side, I haven't heard when though. Hopefully someone else here does.
On Canal Street it does not look like the N/R/Q/W Platforms but like other Nassau Street Stations ansd features the grecian key mosaics. The reason the Essex Street side is not done is due to pending conmbesion to two track operations and abandonment of the curtrent Essex Street side at Canal and Bowery and the current Marcy Bouind side at Essex. (At Essex the marcy bound rtack will remain in place but unused. Trains to Marcy will stop on the island platform using the current middle track.
When will the project start?. Last I heard from NY ERA is it is being rewritten so "Please stand by."
Why didn't they make the JMZ stop into the Chinese theme anyway? It doesn't look too bad.
The last I heard, it will start in 2004 when all 4 tracks are availiable on the MannyB.
I'm in process of updating rail maps: I need help with Sacramento's south line LRT extension (to Meadowview).
Where does south line spur from main line? west after what station?
Thanks,
Michael Calcagno
Are u updating the Calgary map too? If you are I can help you there.
JLeungofCalgary wrote: ((Are u updating the Calgary map too? If you are I can help you there.))
It's already updated May 2001 by someone, unless there's new extension(s) open?
Thanks,
Michael Calcagno
I'm planning to take the kids to my favorite old haunt, The Brooklyn Museum, Thursday or Friday.
I could take the LIRR to Flatbush Avenue and then the IRT, but the connections at Jamaica on my train are not good the kids are not too good with a 2-four trip each way.
Soooo.....
Anyone enlighten me on the parking situation near the Brooklyn Museum?
Paul, the Brooklyn Musuem has a parking lot out back --- accessible around the corner on Washington Avenue side (just before the Botanic Gardens entrance). Fee is probably $5 or 6 bucks for the day.
In case the lot should be full, street parking on Washington or the Eastern Parkway service road might do as well.
Uh, BTW, you might want to visit the Brooklyn Musuem between April and July when they'll have a BIG exhibit on the art and design of the 'Star Wars' series of films (you may already be aware that the R2D2 and C3PO robots from the film are already on display there).
BMTman
I knew you'd come to my rescure, BMTman! :)
My older kidling wants to see the Egyptian collection (second largest in the world), enhanced until the end of the week by stuff from the British Museum (largest in the world). My wife (also ex-Brooklyn, but originally Philly) is going to come along with my younger daughter to see her favorite stuff.
Do they still have those old Brooklyn houses indoors?
We saw the British Museum-loaned Egyptian exhibit last week -- it is magnificent. We parked in the Museum lot with no problem.
I don't know your schedule, or your children's ages, but you might want to consider the first Saturday of the month (it might be Friday, you'll have to check. The museum opens in the evening for free, and they have bands, dancing, kids art studios, etc. It's basically a big party. Once you pay for parking, food, drinks etc. it is far from free, but still a good time. We've gone several times over the years, and it is always packed.
The Brooklyn rooms are still up there. It's my favorite part of the place.
It is Saturday. What a shame it's the only day it's open late, and free. Anyway, my kids (at least at ages 9 and 11) like their outside entertainment during the daytime, anyway. Can't get them out of the house in the evening except to go to Duncan Donuts or maybe walk the dogs in the summer.
I'm looking forward to the Brooklyn rooms again.
Further note -- the British Museum Egyption stuff is on a different floor from the regular Egyptian collection. The special stuff is on the same floor as the American collection, which is quite amazing in itself. There are a number of masterpieces that I never realized were in the Brooklyn Museum.
Ops! Thought the y'uns were into seeing the 'Star Wars' stuff. Of course the Brooklyn Museum has one of the finest Egyptian artifacts in the world (who's got the first if BM is second?)
[Do they still have those old Brooklyn houses indoors?]
Paul, I believe you're referring to the old Schenck Family farmhouse that was moved to the museum from it's original location (which is present day Canarsie Park). As far as I know it is still there. I'm not aware of any other houses or section of houses that have been saved and displayed at the Brooklyn Museum besides that one.
BMTman
It's been so long I'm not sure if there was more than one or not. The thing that fascinated me most was the disconnect of seeing an old house inside a modern museum space.
I mean, if I see an old house dumped somewhere old, I fully expect a witch's feet to be sticking out from underneath it ...but that's another story.
It's like, what would you think if you say an R9 in someone's living room?
It's like, what would you think if you say an R9 in someone's living room?
I'd think that was great!
Interesting choice for that anallgy (sp?).
LOL!
My older kidling wants to see the Egyptian collection
Kidling? Never heard that one before ... but actually, it's pretty neat. A welcome change of pace from rug rat/porch monkey/yard ape/ankle biter. Tho' I probably can't get away with using it chez moi, what with the kidlings being 13 and 16.
The Annunciation Test is done to insure that the trainline public address system is operational. It is accomplished by hooking up a TA tone generating test set to the portion pins that transmit PA audio. I do not know if there is an 'audio engagement pin' which must be activated...sometime I'll bring in a TTG (Two Tone Generator used for telephone checks or SSB transmitter tuning) and see just how it works.
The R142 trainsets don't normally need it...five car PA system buttons are checked in every Carbody inspection...Redbirds are another matter and nobody is doing it. CI Peter
Uh, that sounds plausible but that's not what an annunciation
test is.
And, yes, were this test to exist, you would have to stroke
the "audio engagement pin" to key up the PA amps.
Are the R142 PA systems all-digital?
It was today and I got to see part of the event until i was chased away by a member of supervision. I did see most of the press conference including word that additional new cars will be ordered for B Division and they will be Kawasaki.
The train set was 8101 (Canarsie end) to 8108 (8av end).
I saw from a distance Reuter, Kalikow, Pataki and in the mezzanine I saw Mr. Ford Jr
WCBS -TV says 3000 more cars. Fleet size will be 6500 and according to Pataki, built by Kawasaki and assembled in Yonkers.
I guess that means that R40,42,38,32GE will be going to the great railroad in the sky.
Watch the departing train cars...
LOL but that CBTC ATO shit aint gonna work
Why don't you think CBTC will work? It's a proven technology. I believe Moscow's system lets trains get so close that a train can enter station even before the one ahead of it clears the platform. NYCT should have installed it decades ago. The rest of the world will have ZPTO while NYCT is still debating whether to keep conductors. I would call the NYCT signal system third world, but that would be an insult to actual third world subways.
I have my doubts about ZPTO. But I sure would like the T/O to have incredibly detailed knowledge of the position of the trains both ahead and behind him. Even with the usual TA caution that's bound to increase tph dramatically once the information is 100% reliable.
I was thinking some time 50 years in the future when it comes to ZPTO. I was trying to illustrate how slow the NYCT is in adapting new technology. Hell, ZPTO is already 30 year old technology.
ZPTO is not new but it isn't good. Take a look at DC, expected to be ZPTO from day one (1976). Now, imagine if we didn't have certified operators when our relays failed!
Now, imagine if we didn't have certified operators when our relays failed!
The relays would have never failed, there would have been greater incentive for WMATA to prevent it from happenning. Had they still failed, you can be absolutely sure that it would take less than a week to fix them.
They won't improve TPH for saftey reasons. Only more taxpayer money down the hole.
SEPTA commuter rail trains enter stations before a previous train has left...
I've seen it on MARTA, too.
And when "keying by" was allowed, NYCTA did too.
So do todays NYCT trains. It is called "Station Time" signals.
Its called removing the tripcock valve off the bottom of the train.
Great. So we should just setup an few office just for permanent NTSB investigators at Jay or Livingston. This way they can respond quicker when T/O's start playing bumper cars. Great idea and all though, trading a very safe and reliable signaling system for well, nothing at all.
Shawn.
Chances are the nasty T/Os will network and figure out all the excuses to TT and get some time off. It has happened with the R142s because I HAD to investigate 'burning brakes.' CI Peter
I saw a MNRR go at stamford go 6 feet from the train ahead on the platform.
An awful lot of money was dumped into the original CBTC program on the L. I was looking for that work. The microwave transponders were dumped, the software was dumped, inductive comm will cost a lot more now and the R143 is running hihi. Everyone talks about the R160...doesn't exist and takes almost ten years to tracks...the entire system was designed in the days of Morse Code and telephones were an addition. Have some patience...Redbirds are aloof. CI Peter
I'm counting on it failing. Ain't nothing like doing it with your hand! If it is anything like WMATA's Shady Grove train Collision, we are all in trouble though.
NTSB Collision
CBTC= Collision Based Train Carnage.
Ummmmm ... wow ... well, I ain't riding no aluminum telescopes next time I find myself in DeeCee ... and LOVE the management perogatives. I sure hope that's managed to change. Surface ops with sloppy rails? Default to warp 9? Wowsers. I'll never say anything bad about MTA management again! :)
I *think* the proposed wayside CBTC is going to be RADIO based, which is certainly better than rail chokes and audio ... and 400 overruns? Wow. I'd bet they'd hire *ME* ... hahahaha ...
Selkirk heartily approves of the 143's ... I think the TA has finally done the right thing in all sincerity ... only wish ABC hadn't told people that "the computer will operate the train and the train operator will go along for the ride" ... big big difference in showing the signals in the cab and actually RUNNING the train. But for those of us who know a bit about choochoos, sure does speak volumes about the quality of channel 7's "urinalism" ...
Selkirk heartily approves of the 143's
Hey hey, don't get all Bob Dole on us, now ;)
When does the sexy new (semi) automatic operation an all start on the L line anyway?
LOL NOT ANYTIME SOON! i am 19 and i bet i will be a Certified Motorman, and i will prolly be able to operate the L manually before ATO ever starts
Heh. Don't need the "little blue pill" ... ATO? Not in our lifetime. That was one of MANY screwups out of WABC-TV ... CBTC just puts the signal aspects on the control console, just like in the BVE trainsim. That's about as deep as it gets for operators. And that's assuming that of course, CBTC is eventually made to work.
The R143's are just a neat new railcar for now, work just like every other ...
I heard the number 3,500 as in 3,500 new cars. That would replace every B division car currently in service. I did not hear a time-frame for this but we're talking about more than $4 billion. Therefore, I would expect a 10 - 15 year program - maybe longer.
Wouldn't that be a good thing in that there would be only one type of car to deal with on the B division in terms of repairs, spare parts, familiarization of repair crews with how to do routine maintenance, and the like? It could save some money in the long run.
From an efficiency standpoint it would be good to have all the same cars in the whole system, but from a railfan point, it would become pretty boring. All the different cars are one of the things that make the subway interesting. Just look at how boring the LIRR has gotten with the new diesels.
Yes, but one thing to look out for:
It would not necessarily be good to replace all the cars en masse. Train Dude's projection of up to 15 years piece-meal would actually be preferable to getting them quicker than that.
Reason: Cars acquired at the same time will wear out at the same time, but would not all necessarily be replaced at the same time.
A while back there was an NYT article re the LIRR, on exactly that subject. Rockefeller had purchased all those cars at around the same time, and they are now all wearing out. (The article appeared before those new engines and double-deckers showed up.) By contrast, IIRC, the same article said the purchasing of Metro North's current rolling stock was spread over about five separate orders, several years apart.
Something else to consider with promises of "election year gelt" with everybody getting a shiny new subway car ... it's an "election year" and the lie detector's unplugged. :)
I think they were including the new IRT cars in that number as well.
The R68's have 30 or more years left. The R46's have at least 20. I doubt that every B division car will be replaced in that amount of time. Perhaps they mean to replace every current 60' car in that timespan, allowing for an increase in the size of the car fleet. Maybe that number may indicate the cars needed to equip a potential Second Ave. line.
Didn't the R-46s have provisions for ATC control and CBTC that were going to be on the 2nd ave sub?
Not sure. If so, this was probably removed when the cars were GOH'ed.
Here's an article about today's event: http://1010wins.com/topstories/StoryFolder/story_1127318693_html
What time did that happen? I thought the R-143 train wasn't supposed to start out until Tuesday.
- Lyle Goldman
I am back (as I am sure you all have realized). I rode the Disney World Monorail, the Disney Transport Buses, and WMATA B30. The B30 post is on BusTalk, I will link later. More on the other stuff will be posted when my schedule permits.
As for the BVE Route, please do not ask about the release, not a problem here but it is happening on other boards. I am setting up some things so that you will be notified when it is finished.
Did ya fly down or ride Amtrak?
Heading says it all, if you can tune in on time.
Guess I missed it. What did it say?
I should have said "6 o'clock News." It hasn't aired yet, as of 6:10pm
What a bunch of SCREWUPS! Not only did they get the Trolley story all wrong, they also got the 143 story all wrong as well ... sure hope you folks in the city don't get the REST of your info from those clowns. Sheesh. Well, I go point my dish back the other way now.
Yeah, but it was a good sympathetic piece probably giving a lot of New Yorkers a clue that something is going on in Red Hook.
Would have been a LOT more useful to the cause though if they'd gone into a bit of the hijinx afoot at NYCDOT ... for those of us who have followed the story, it was a horrible sham what they put on the air. As though Bob personally paid NYCDOT's piece of it and the deal was all set to go, no intervention needed. BAD research on the part of Ken and Barbie back at Regis HQ. :)
What did the story have to say about the situation in Red Hook? Obviously I didn't see the newscast, not only because I'm in the wrong area geographically but because 6:00 is suppertime...
-Robert King
Basically, this new trolley line is going to be really really neat - "back to the future" ... they apparently never bothered to note that there's problems ... why they even had a "line map" which missed Borough hall by about an inch ... totally, totally clueless reporting and out of Bill Beutel of all people, a damned shame.
All fluff, no substance and absolutely NOTHING on the situation Bob's in ... a typical Disney screwjob.
Basically, this new trolley line is going to be really really neat - "back to the future" ... they apparently never bothered to note that there's problems [...] All fluff, no substance and absolutely NOTHING on the situation Bob's in ... a typical Disney screwjob.
But at this stage, that reportage is not necessarily a bad thing. The report made it sound like the trolley was virtually a done deal. That's a good space to come from, public opinion-wise, because if a subsequent story says that Bob is getting screwed, and people prevously though they were going to see the trolley, they're more likely to express outrage.
I'm sure by 7 o'clock, a LOT of people already forgot the story. TV news is like that ... you might be right, but TV newspeople's attention span is less than that of a two year old. I know, I used to BE one, then an anchor, and then joined RTNDA. :)
What is RTNDA and where did you work in TV news? Your life story gets more interesting the more we learn about you!
RTNDA is "Radio and Television News Director's Association." Worked in radio from 1968 at WBAI in the old brownstone on E39th, at the same time was working for Marv Grafton at "RAT: Subterranean news" and also wrote for The East Village Other and the Village Voice (had ta pay bills somehow) after getting out of school. Did that for about three years and then went into the engineering side of radio for a number of years and television later on.
The TV news piece of it was (gulp!) WFTI-TV54 in Poughkeepsie before it went teats-up and became a "Pray-TV station" and was reporter, eventually anchor for two major casts as well as hourly "tease updates" between shows around 1980. In 1985, came WAY upstate after being hired by the NYC Cable Commission to build a thing called "NY-SCAN" which was a state equivalent of the C-Span channel and did that until Cuomo killed it because we were giving the republicans WAY too much camera time in his eyes. What's amusing is they're now trying to bring back NY-SCAN and going NOWHERE. I'm certainly not interested. :)
I guess you knew Bob Fass? I used to like to call into "Radio Unnamable."
That was before Public Radio became Establishment.
Yep ... Fass was a madman, as was Stevie Post. While I was snubbed by those guys as a "newbie" we got along somewhat. I too was part of Coffey and Millspaugh's news operation. Frank Coffey has been news director at channel 11 for quite some time, I imagine he's still there. However when 11 became DubyaBee, they got yanked off the satellite because we have a local TimeWarner network station locally.
Before they moved to the church, in the old brownstone high above the Vera Institute of Justice, the place was packed to the walls with tapes, paper and cubbyholes. Had to be careful where you walked and who ya stepped on. :)
The press rarely, if ever, seems to get the story right, or to any real depth.
THAT I'm used to ... but this particular story and the way they told it demonstrated a wanton disregard for reality that makes FOX News look credible. Geesh ...
What is the Average Speed in the tunnel from brooklyn to manhattan? And what is the average speed it does from station to station?
well i dunno if i am correct. Correct me if i am wrong people but i have had R44s hit average 48-54mph on Fulton exp. in the cranberry st tube into manhattan and out, i have seen usually around 55 if ur lucky, but if u got a train operator and not a MOTORMAN, u will only get around 42
I'll correct you, you are wrong. Motormen haven't been hired at NYCT since the EARLY 1980s. A good train operator can get an R44 up to 45 MPH. A so-so Train Operator can get an R44 up to 45 MPH. My students get R44s up to 45 MPH. Grade time signal 874 will no longer clear at 50 MPH so it is my contention that no one will go through the Cranberry Tubes at 54 MPH, anymore. So what have we learned today?
1) Motormen's days are numbered.
2) R44s speeds run up to 45 MPH, just like any other car.
3) People give speedometers too much credit.
They are inacuret. I have heard about speeds at 5 mph and the train is stoped.
Just what is the difference between a motorman and a Train Operator?
- Lyle Goldman
Political correctness ... I'm glad to see women running trains, there were damned few in my day. But "train operator" sounds so ... ummm ... SUBORDINATE ... on the railroad side of the world, they're called "engineers" ... that word ain't so sexist ... but I never liked the "operator" thing, to me it connotes TELEPHONE COMPANY sexism ... if ya know what I mean.
But you guys were talking like they were different things! Engine Brake even said, "Motormen haven't been hired at NYCT since the EARLY 1980s," and, "Motormen's days are numbered." That doesn't really make sense, considering male train drivers are still being very much hired, and they are just as good as motorwomen!
- Lyle Goldman
I'll leave the personals to Engine Brake, but for those with the system these days, it ain't like the old days. OPTO, merging of responsibilities, eventual automation ... I suspect that's what he meant. But the term "motorman" was changed because it didn't pass "touchy-feely" muster. Shoulda have become "motorperson" but touchy feely job title changes also permits all sorts of OTHER redefinitions.
But I'll leave it to Engine Brake to explain what HE meant, that's not my place to do so ...
For one AcelaExpress2005, everyone, asked for AVERAGE SPEED, not TOP SPEED!! (Pay attention!!) Average speeds are usually half of what a top speed is, and usually are what the trains run at more often, which in the case of the R-44 seems, now, to be anywhere from 28-31 mph. Greater to 45 mph (higher if you somehow get it there especially since most 44s had traction motors modified several years ago to max at 40 - near 45) usually is when the train operator (or motorman) has it "wrapped around", or at max throttle on express between station running, or when travelling The Flats (Rockaway Line).
Below is the URL to a streetcar body that's for sale on eBay. The car is a Stone & Webster standard that has been in use as a dining room in a spaghetti restaurant in Providence, RI. The carbody looks to be in good shape, and the owner has offered to move it for free - a real steal, except for the fact that no one is very interested and the guy is apparently asking somewhere above $5,000 for it. The car is thought to originally have been from Dallas.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1706416645
-Frank Hicks
Wow, that is a good deal. The shipping alone must use up a good part of the profits.
This item has been previously auctioned; it "sold" the last time for $2550.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1701542331
If you look at the bidding history for the two auctions and the history of the sellers you might detect a pattern... something's fishy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yup, like Anon_e-mouse noted, there's something very fishy going on at eBay with this. It's the same item, same description and same pics as the last time. Perhaps eBay needs to police their sellers.
Could it be that the previous winner backed out of the sale?
The bidding irregularities were noted in another discussion group (www.rypn.org) and a person there said it has been already reported to eBay to investigate.
The auction has been cancelled by eBay.
There is an item on WINS today about the L getting new rolling stock with eventual CBTC. Pataki even took a ride on the L.
Suppose that with 5 years of tinkering and testing they make it work. Not to get rid of the T/O, but to give him incredibly more accurate information about the distance to and speed of the next train, and to provide a recommended speed that the T/O can reduce in case of emergency?
Suppose this allows true 40 tph operation, thus allowing the Lex to run 80 tph instead of the current 50 listed on the schedule, by 2010 or so?
This is not a total pipe dream. We're talking about simpler software than a lot of other stuff that runs our lives nowadays. But still, it could be botched as easily as not.
If (big if) all this happens successfully, is the 2nd Ave subway still a good investment? Or would the money be better spent on providing access to more areas of the city and thus speeding up people's rides (less need for buses) and spurring development (say, on 10th-12th Ave).
even if the advertised happens, (on time and on budget ha ha), the 2nd Ave line still needs to be built. That DOES NOT MEAN ignoring other expansion.
(Suppose that with 5 years of tinkering and testing they make it work. Suppose this allows true 40 tph operation, thus allowing the Lex to run 80 tph instead of the current 50 listed on the schedule, by 2010 or so?)
They've got a whole CBTC schedule set out. Assuming it works, the Flushing Line goes next, then the Culver, etc., etc. Because the IRT Lex and Broadway lines were older and more congested, they have relatively new signals. They aren't even on the schedule for 20 years or so. Remember, you need to buy the cars for CBTC too. Don't count on it until the R62s are scrapped at age 50.
Assuming it works? From what I can see, the TA hasn't defined
any standard for what "works", so it _will_ work, no matter
what the cost. The next 30 years of the system depend on this!
You're somehow connected with signal planning now, right? What
are the metrics for evaluating the "trial" system? Operating
& maintenance costs, MTBF, tph capacity? Or will it be a success
if an R143 can make it from Canarsie to 8 Ave without going BIE?
> Or would the money be better spent on providing access to more areas of the city
> and thus speeding up people's rides (less need for buses) and spurring development
Wouldn't the Second Avenue Subway do that?
- Lyle Goldman
How about these routes for service today.
A- current route
B- 168th street, CPW local, 6th avenue local, Williamsburg Bridge, replacing the J/Z in Queens
C- BPB/145th to Euclid via 8th avenue, Broadway nassau
D- 205th street to West 4th street (there is a switch north of West fourth allowing expresses to be turned there), via express
E- local in Queens, otherwise current route
F- via 53rd, express in Queens to Jamaica Center
G- current route
J- See B.
L- current route
M- would run to Broad/Chambers all times, replacing the J, would run to Brooklyn at same schedule it does now
N- current route
Q- both Qs would be extended via 63rd tunnel to 179th/Queens
R- current route
V- would no longer exist (replaced by E in Queens and B in Manhattan)
W- current route
As a result, sixth avenue service would change dramatically. There would be 3 sixth avenue services, the B, D, and F, all extending at least as far south as West 4th street (the D as an express and B and F as locals).
The Q and Q diamond would both be extended via 63rd to QB express to 179th street. To compensate, the F would return to 53rd and replace the E as the 53rd street express to Jamaica Center. The E would then switch to the local track in Queens to replace the V and allow for the Q as an express.
As the B would run up 6th avenue, the M would replace it running to Broad street on Weekends, and continue to Brooklyn as it does now on weekdays.
This plan would need to be reworked for 2004, but keeping this B train could allow for better Broadway service then.
Are you planning on abandoning skipstop on the Jamaica Line?
No. I'm not sure if the B would provide enough trains to provide skip stop on the J. If so, the B and some other letter could provide skip stop. If not, keep the Z and send it to Broad street, where it ends now.
Contintal can't handle 10 Rs turning around and 15 Es continuing through to 179th.
Yes it can. The process of turning trains around would not effect trains continuing on (look at track maps for local turning procedure).
I was thinking of turning all local trains at Continental. But I would have no objections to extending the E to 179th street (E train service could be slightly cut if necessary bec. they're no longer running express).
A big part of the turning process is making sure everyone is off the train, especially at the end of rush hour when a train may be going to the yard. An E will have to wait while the R ahead of it gets totally emptied out.
That's a good point, but not one that should prevent this service change. As I said, the E could end at Contiental and could be cut back to about 12 tph (not as much service is needed on a local E as an express E).
Two unconscious drunks on the R could destroy your timetable.
The other problem happens when the service tries to correct itself after a problem and you get two R's in a row.
Turning trains at terminals is not as easy as Mr.B would have you think.
When something happens and you get your trains out of order it can be a difficult process to keep service coming back the other way.
Too much service via 63.
Big mess north of Briarwood with Q's and F's crossing over the E then the E's merging back later with the F's.
You forgot how to turn the GSS
does anyone know where i can get a R33,R62 And r142.all models
build em urself =) I do
A company called Images Replicas mad N-scale R62's....three car sets, I believe, one powered. They were brass....hence, EXPENSIVE!
http://www.imagesreplicas.com
Are the trains on the A, B, C, & D lines longer than those on the 1, 2, & 3 lines.
Thanks in Advance
Saul Wilson
A,B,D yes(8x75, or 10x60)...The c might not be(8x60)...
The 1 and 2 are 10x51, and the 3 is 9X51, so i guess that the order is A-B-D,1-2,C,3
Is the #3 still only 9 cars? I thought they were 10 cars now.
- Lyle Goldman
Correct. The 3 has been ten cars long since August. (Yes, August. A certain event in September had nothing to do with it.) No more mad dashes at the south entrance at 96th.
Incorrect, the 3 was always nine cars since 9/19 or whatever they started using the 240th cars. What made you think that the 3 was ten cars pre 9/19????
IND and BMT platforms (Lettered lines) are in excess of 600 feet long.
IRT platforms (Numbered lines) are around 515 feet long (+/-).
the JLM platforms are OT 600 ft
Does anyone know how many people are using the light rail a day during the Olympics? MARTA was doing 1.5 million a day back in the 1996 games.
Oh crap, I posted this in the wrong thread ignore this one.
I don't get there as often as I would like, but a few months ago I saw they were restoring the local stations to their old tilework and removed the "ugly tiles of the 70's". I was just wondering which, if any, of the stations were done or near completion or how far along they are. I used to use that line every day a few years back and was always hoping they would remove the ugly 70's tile and resore the mosaics. Thanks for any update on the progress.
West 8 seems to be almost done. I was there yesterday. The mosaics were mostly intact it seems under the refrigerator tile. They have cleaned up the mosaics and apllied new white tile over the old white tile. This means that the mosaics are now slightly recessed. I think they did a pretty good job. I don't know about the other stations though since I haven't been all the way down to Canal in a while.
Shawn.
The old 70's style was cool. And I wish that the 63st and archer lines were in that 70's tile. Also the old tile underneth the tile looks better than the new they are putting over (thats the tile where the edges go down, the old tile doesn't go down on joints).
I wouldn't mind the 70's tile if it didn't cover over the old Broadway mosaics, which were pretty nice, and shouldn't have been covered over to begin with. In stations like Archer and 63rd Conn. it would be fine (it wasn't a bad look), because it wouldn't have been covering any old mosaics. There insted we have ugly orange 80's tiles.
8th St, southbound, is nearest completion. Looking spiffy, IMHO.
UTA-Trax is running 4-car LRV trains in Salt Lake today. That's about 324' long, or longer than the G train !
Begin stupid joke:
That would make it a heavy-rail then? Hardy har har.
Also deppends the weight of the cars and the rails.
4 cars ?? oh no !! the long beach blue line in los angeles runs only ....................3 ?
rats !! ..................( sigh ) .......
rats beat by utah !! ...........damnit !!
If it makes you feel better, 3 Siemens are still longer than the Franklin Shuttle...
Let's see - 243 feet (3 Siemens SD100 LRVs, which is what we have in Denver) vs 150 feet for two R-68s. Even a two-car light rail train would be longer (162 feet vs 150 feet).
Believe me, if it weren't for the short block lengths in downtown Denver, we'd have 4-car trains, too.
That's why San Diego doesn't run a four-car consist of their Siemens cars into town. They DO run four-car consists from San Ysidro to 12th-Imperial, then another operator jumps on there and they break the consist into two two-car trains.
I thought I saw at least 4 cars on San Diego's. Do they ever run longer ones there? How many cars can the stations handle?
Actually, by "car" I mean a complete two-body articulated unit. In other words, their normal operation sees a two-car (four-body) train. The south line to Tijuana sees three-car (six-body) consists, but in peak hours, they run four-car (eight-body) consists south of 12th-Imperial -- split into two two-car (four-body) consists north of there.
Most of their stations NOT on street trackage can handle the four-car (eight-body) trains....but the blocks in downtown San Diego, particularly those on C Street, are short and thus can only handle a three-car (six-body) consist.
Thanks for clearing that up. I knew I remembered seeing "longer" trains. But now I realize they look like pairs and counted as 1.
Here in Denver, the entire system was designed to accommodate 3-car trains, maximum. That includes stations. They could have designed the Central Platte Valley spur for 4-car trains, since it doesn't run along streets except for a short stretch along 16th St. which appears to be closed to vehicular traffic. 4-car trains would really come in handy on that line, since it will serve the Sports Complex as well as Six Flags Elitch Gardens (yes, folks, we'll have light rail service to an amusement park once again), but it's probably more hassle than it's worth. The sticking point is the length of a typical downtown block from northwest to southeast. A 3-car train just barely fits between parallel streets. Going from southwest to northeast is no problem; a 4-car train would fit easily in one block. Denver's blocks downtown are similar to Manhattan's in that they're more rectangular than square-shaped.
> light rail service to an amusement park once again
The Six Flags in San Jose has a station too...
Six Flags in San Jose? No such thing!!
Paramount's Great America.....
(I'm also a roller coaster nut...)
Well it is basically a train on tracks.............some people may even say the subway is like a roller coaster ride.........In seriousness there's nothing better than a great roller coaster...........the closest thing in the subway.........flying of an el (but we don't want that to happen..........)
I had a dream once in which a train of R-10s went roaring down a mountainside, on track, at about 100 mph. It was the downhill dash from 59th to 42nd all over again, only more terrifying.
The blue line long beach los angeles rail stations have been rebuilt .
However it can only handle 3 cars total
Now on the green line ( which refuses to go 2 the airport LAX ) it may handle 3 cars in the future ...
Does anyone know how many people are using the light rail a day during the Olympics? MARTA was doing 1.5 million a day back in the 1996 games.
I don't know if this counts, but SF Muni used to run 4 car light rail street cars in the Market Street Subway. They would split once emerging to the surface.
This was before a new computer system allowed more tph and when they ran an all Boeing fleet. The Boeings are all gone now (yippee) and I believe that the new Breda cars are so long that 4 car trains are too long for the Metro stations.
actually the Boeings were also too long, BUT because they were only midpoint door capable for high level platforms, it didnot matter. The Bredas with all doors useable (better entry/exit times) overhang the platform in four car consista at Forest Hills only IIRC. Certainly it is not a problem Civic Ctr - Emb as the platforms are almost BART sized. (circa 720')
Back when they were building BART/Muni metro, I remember hearing/reading (I actually attended a couple public hearings on the issue) that five-car rush hour consists were planned. I suspect they were thinking in terms of the old 40s-50s-era St. Louis Car Company cars.
4???
Oh no! I've got to agree with Salaam here...
BEATEN BY UTAH! WHAT HAS CALGARY TRANSIT COME TO???
The longest trains the two Alberta systems (Calgary and Edmonton) can accomodate are 3...There was talk to extend the lengths to 5, but I think that plan died along with putting Calgary's downtown core section underground.
I don't know how long the SD-160's (The SD-160's are the high-platform Calgary cousin to the trains Salt Lake and Portland are using.) are, so I guess I'll avoid destroying the panic button for now.
-JLeung!
Waaaaaaaaaitttttttttt a second!!!!!
Were the UTA TRAX trains SD-160s???
If they are, they're only 76 feet long! That's only 304 feet!
I just checked the Siemens site, and I've found out that SLC has the same type of car as Calgary's new trains. And BOTH are the same length!
A 3-car consist of the SD-160's should only be 228" in BOTH Salt Lake and Calgary...How long is a G train?
Hmmmm...4 cars? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! *gasp* OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Pardon the freaking out. Heh...
-JLeung!
They are SD-100's.
Try this link.
http://www.lightrail.com/carspecpages/sd100.htm
The SD100s are roughly 81 feet long. I'm not sure if that's the length of the carbody only or if it's coupler-to-coupler. The couplers on the SD100s extend at least a foot past each end of the carbody.
>>> I just checked the Siemens site <<<
What Siemens site did you go to? The one I accessed was particularly unhelpful. From the pictures posted by Dave at this site, those cars seem short. Here in Los Angeles, the Siemens P2000 cars are approximately 90 feet long.
Tom
Here's the site.
Did anyone check out the link to the Midwest high speed rail plans? Let's hope it becomes a reality in spinte of the usual things that keep such good ideas from being implemented.
Mark
"Did anyone check out the link to the Midwest high speed rail plans? Let's hope it becomes a reality in spinte of the usual things that keep such good ideas from being implemented."
The progress on the Midwest system is somewhat complex. On the one hand, cab signaling and track improvements are in place in Michigan for the route to Detroit and are being installed in Illinois for the route to Saint Louis. On the other hand, bids were accepted for the initial 110mph-capable rolling stock over a year ago; a contract was supposed to be awarded by now but it hasn't yet, pending the $$ from the ever-debated but not-passed High Speed Rail Investment Act.
>>> Here's the site. <<<
That's the site I found, but I found no technical data regarding any of their LRVs on the site. It looks like a general public relations feel good site rather than one with any imprtant information on it.
Tom
I have a friend who works for RTD who gave me some rudimentary technical specs on the SD100s. If I can find the list, I'll post whatever information it has.
A few years ago, there was trackwork being done on the MBTA (Boston) Green Line between Park Street and Government Center, causing one of two tracks to be out of service for an entire weekend.
So northbound service from Heath, Cleveland Circle, Boston College, and Riverside was looped back southbound at Park Street, and southbound service from Lechmere was looped back northbound at Government Center on the Brattle Loop. In between, a four-car train of Type-7 trolleys ran a shuttle on the available track between Park St. and Government Center.
During weekends when they've had to split light rail service in Denver due to track or electrical work, shuttlebuses run between the I-25/Broadway and 14th St. stations. Trains are turned on the southern half on the crossover switch north of the I-25/Broadway station, after which they reverse direction, while on the northern half, trains loop at 14th St. on the normally unused loop turnout from Stout St.
Shaker Heights Rapid Transit ran 5 car trains of PCC's. Some had high-voltage bus lines so that not all trolley poles had to be up at once.
I am sure a whole bunch of what if threads are going to start concerning the MTA going OPTO or ZPTO due to the introduction of CBTC. If you want my opinion, and I am sure the TA shares it, is that ZPTO is NOT the way to go. Think about it. If ZPTO were put in place, there would be hardly any people qualified to operate the trains. Now, your CBTC/ATO/whatever you want to call the system fails. The trains are stuck, and your whole system is shut down. Imagine if WMATA went ZPTO as planned from Day One, back in 1976. We would have been without a subway for months when our signal relays failed! While I am in favor of OPTO on trains with CBTC (although I do miss the full railfan window), ZPTO is NOT the way to go.
Your concerns are legitmate. In that other thread, I wasn't suggesting that ZPTO be implemented anytime soon (although London will have it by 2008, which should be carefully studied by other transit agencies to see how well it works), however none of us know what kind of technology will be around several decades from now. With that, ZPTO is almost certain at some point in the future.
ZPTO is possible right now with high reliability. The Westinghouse system, which is the standard of automated transit, has an outstanding 99.9% reliability rate, how many OPTO or TPTO subways can claim that?. Whatever methods are used to remove broke-down trains today could be used in ZPTO systems as well. Look at Line 14 in Paris and the Docklands railway in London, does anyone how well those systems are working? And of course these automated systems have enough qualified technicians to operate a train when a failure occurs, so that shouldn't be a concern.
What do you do when you have a failure on the road and no person can move the train? Or if your train movement systems are down for a long period of time?
Since I don't work with automated systems, I can give you a real answer. But what I would think would happen is there would be command rooms at certian points, and when a failure occurs, someone would walk down the walkway to the train and move it. They could also do what conventional subways do and reroute trains around the problem via crossovers. Also, the computer controls would most definately have redundant systems. I've been on the Hartsfield people mover before when it failed, but it was only down for maybe 15 minutes and it went back to normal operation.
Absolutely. The organizational pyramid would just get narrower again.
I recall a story from the early days of DC Metro in which an operator left a train for some reason and closed the doors from the outside. The train then took off on its own, responding to the computer impulses, etc, and travelled for several stops until a supervisor could intercept it. ?
and on BART an operator fell asleep somewhere near Orinda apparently awakened two stations later--the train was operated by the computer stopping at the intermediate locations.
Yeah but that wasn't the fault of the train. It was carelessness of the T/O and the ATO systems did exactly as they were susposed to.
You're argument doesn't make any sense. Because subways are electrical, there are no longer enough diesel locomotives to pull all of the trains to provide service, and there certainly aren't enough horses! Therefore if the power grid goes down, there won't be any service for several months!
Of course the power grid doesn't go out of service for several months, why should a ZPTO signal system. Just because the technology may not be particularly reliable now, doesn't mean it won't be 99% reliable in the future.
ZPTO operates on transit sytems within various airports around the world. But out in the city, with all of its varied neighbourhoods, the human factor has to be taken into consideration. As well as starting and stopping the trains and opening the doors, a human being is also a reassuring presence to passengers -- when it first opened, the LA Blue Line had county sheriffs on every train! The London Docklands LR probably could be ZPTO, as it is computer controlled and now pretty reliably so, but they have a person on each train anyway.
Then there is the question of fare collection. Fare evasion would be hard to control with ZPTO -- airport shuttles don't charge fares. On the LRT system in Sheffield, England, the trams were intended to be OPTO; the drivers don't collect fares as on buses, but fares were collected by machines on the platforms. But there was so much fare evasion (plus breakdowns of the machines at the unstaffed stations) that they have introduced old-fashioned conductors on the trams to collect the fares!
Check out Engine Brake's link in message 328014 ... that one's a showstopper right there - full NTSB report in Adobe Acrobat PDF format.
You can have a railfan window with opto. A R-68 can do it. Just because you have a different siginaling system doesn't mean that you need a full cab.
How are you supposed to open and close doors on the side of the train opposite of the cab without being able to observe the platform? There's no easy way to do it without a transverse cab. Get over it.
Shawn.
Never heard of CAMERAS AND MONITORS?
You would also have to rewire the car. You can't open the off side on that kind of equipent.
That lets me observe, but how about opening and closing the doors? The door controls for the off-side are on the off-side. Open up the cab and you first need to rewire the door controls. Transit ain't gonna do it to keep you guys happy.
The change could have easily and painlessly been made on new car orders -- like the three that are in progress currently. You're right, rewiring existing cars probably isn't worth it.
Believe it or not, MARTA's train operator has to walk the width of the cab to open doors . At Five Points the wall is opened first and then the island with the island closing first. I believe The Broad Street line is Philly also has the T/O walking to the other side of the cab for island platforms.
Even today on the G line the T/O has to walk to the other side of the cab for 21 Van Alst, Court Square, and Queens Blvd Express stops.Yes- The G is or was OPTO overnight and weekends
Is -- weekends, at least.
BTW, if the weekend N is cut back to Pacific (via 4th Avenue express) and runs OPTO, it could theoretically keep its current fleet, as all platforms are on the right on the Sea Beach and on the 4th Avenue express. It's probably not a good idea, though; what if an occasional train is switched to the local track or sent to Manhattan, say to fill a gap in R/W service?
Open up the cab and you first need to rewire the door controls. Transit ain't gonna do it to keep you guys happy.
If it allowed them to eliminate a large part of the work force, they wouldn't hesitate to do it.
A common rant here is trains on the 7 not being signed correctly. With the introduction of the R62As on that line in the near future (probably), I think identifying trains will be harder. Is it possible for a LED sign to be installed in each cab that reads LOCAL in red or EXPRESS in green? Another idea could be illuminated panels or even metal signs. It is much easier to flip the metal sign than it is to roll the sign sometimes, especially when a train told to change en route. What do you all think?
Also, does anyone know if the < 7 > sign on the R62As also has the word express like the < 6 >?
All the t/o has to do is to put up an end sign with a round 7 for local and diamond 7 for express. If they have time and sufficient platform personel at Main St., set side signs to round 7 or diamond 7.
Marker Lights were used back in the salad days of the IRT and BMT, when MU's did not carry head-end destination signage.
Used mainly to show upcoming towers what train it was, and in turn throw the correct line up, they became obsolete starting with the R40S class.
On CTA L trains in Chicago, marker lights are far from obsolete -- they're still used along with head-end destination signs.
Also, the CTA trains have the roll signs (head end and side) remotely controlled so that the T.O. can change them all at once from the comfort of his/her cab. This is especially useful on on the Brown, Orange, and Purple lines, where the T.O. changes the sign from "Loop" to the outer destination when entering the Loop.
Of course, Chicago L trains, with a single roll sign (just shows destination, line indicated by color of sign) are a simpler proposition that New York (three signs, line letter/number and both terminii).
-- Ed Sachs
I still remember the A and B designations when skip-stop service was in regular use. Each had a different color as well; on the old North/South line, the A Englewood-Howard had a red background while the B Jackson Park-Howard was green. Back then, both destinations were shown at once. When the train was making all stops, as was the case during nights and Sundays, older signs simply showed one destination on top of the other and newer ones kept the A/B colors, but instead of A or B, there was an "All Stops" marking. IIRC other colors were used on other A/B routes.
Back in the old days (with the 4000 and 6000 series cars which didn't have the remote control roll sign changers), the destination signs had both destinations so they didn't need to change them, and the loop trains (such as what is now the Brown line) had a single destination (Just said "Ravenswood", not "Ravenswood/Loop"). The "A" indications were in a white triangle on the left side of the sign, and the "B" indications were in a white square to the right.
As Steve indicated, the colors were used to differentiate "A" and "B" skip-stop services. As I recall:
Howard/Englewood or Howard/Jackson Park:
/A\ Howard/Englewood Red
Howard/Jackson Park [B] Green
Howard/Englewood Black (All Stops)
Howard/Jackson Park Black (All Stops)
Congress/Milwaukee or Douglas/Milwaukee:
/A\ Congress/Milwaukee Red
Douglas/Milwaukee [B] Green
[*] Congress/Milwaukee Red (All Stops)
Douglas/Milwaukee [*] Green (All Stops)
( [*] was a small white box with the words "All Stops" in it)
Ravenswood:
/A\ Ravenswood Yellow
Ravenswood [B] Blue
Ravenswood Black (All Stops)
Lake:
/A\ Lake Yellow
Lake [B] Blue
Lake Black (All Stops)
-- Ed Sachs
I forgot about the A being on the left side of the sign and B being on the right. That's absolutely correct. I've ridden on what is now the Red line more times than any other Chicago L route, and since Bryn Mawr was always an AB stop along with Washington/Monroe, we'd take whichever train came first.
IIRC the 4000s had sign plates or boards up front and roll signs on the sides only. Whenever I think of the 4000s, I see a red "Evanston Express" sign.
also Evanston woB and Evanston Express WoR
To answer your last question, yes, the diamond 7 side sign on the R62a's indeed has the word 'express' below it.
Well, so far FOX 5 gets the big screw-up award. They gave about 5 seconds of coverage tonight at 10:40. What train do they show? Why, an R42 of course! Great job Fox. Did you know the 3rd Ave el was torn down?
I didn't know that the R-143s looked like R-42s. Hey FOX, did you really see the R-143s or are you trying to fool the train buff into thinking that the R-42s are the R-143s?
#3 West End Jeff
I was just about to write the same thing... Fox shows 143 with pataki in it, then shows an old train coming into the station.. HA HA
NBC 4 @ 6 had apice about 3min long on the, and they were on the right train. The one thing that they said was roung was that they said the R143's were the first train with Computers control ancements, strip maps and other thing. They did said that in a few years that it will be CBTC over the L line.
Robert
There's also a photo in today's (Tues) paper with the governor on the R143 at 8th Ave. (with the nice new BMT repro wall in the backround)
NY1 shows an R-40 at first in its coverage this morning.
They should stop complaining about the 2nd ave subway because the el is not there anymore. Also remember the MTA did consider building the 2nd ave below the el.
Here's a lovely shot of friday night's darwin contender. (it's a bit dark, but you get the idea...)
Where was this again?
36th Av, N train heading north to ditmars...
Man ... some people will do ANYTHING to get a seat ... :)
No no! He just wants a Railfan view. Its the fault of those damn transverse cabs.
Here's a lovely shot of friday night's darwin contender. (it's a bit dark, but you get the idea...)
Heh heh, if he'd been a little less lucky, we'd be seeing his picture on rotten.com
Heh! Most likely if the train was heading south, he'd have either slid off on the curve into queensborough plaza, or gotten snagged in the ironwork going into the lower level.
If i recall right the arch on the ditmars end of the line (which is where the train was heading...) under the hell gate bridge is high enough that he mighta had enough room... though i don't go to that stop often so...
Sure hope the dewd realized that unlike the movie "SPEED" there are no flashing red lights on the ceiling with bells blaring to let him know he'd be drinking decapitated coffee in the morning ...
heheh. you know, he seemed so relaxed up there, I supsect he's more of a 'wake and bake' kinda guy than a coffee drinker :)
maybe if everyone did a bong hit before riding the subway things would be a lot less stuffy...
Back in the R1/9 days, TA meat was PAID to ride outside the cars (you had to do operate the doors) but man, I had my neck back inside the storm door before the platform walls ended ... doing what that clown was doing is major league insanity. I don't think even bongwater would make you THAT stupid. :)
Ah, but did you stay on the step plates for 3 car lengths?:-)
I stepped down when the wall was coming ... you learn to do that. :)
>>> I stepped down when the wall was coming ... you learn to do that <<<
Preferably not by trial and error. :-)
Tom
Heh. Nah, they had "training films" ... now they have a simulator. It really wasn't such a big deal though I could see current TWU folks sheeting a peekle having to climb out between the cars and stand there making sure nobody's getting dragged. Now it's just a matter of opening and closing a window at the designated time coordinates. The ONE advantage we had though riding high in the saddle was that we could see both ends of the train since we were higher than the geese standing on the platform. Thus, even at 59th St, even at 34 & 6, you could see the wall coming several cars ahead. :)
Just imagine if he stayed on through the 60th street tube. I don't think anybody could hold on with the speeds in there.
I still say he was getting a moon tan the hard way !
Bill "Newkirk"
Reminds me of the Looney Tunes cartoon with Tweety and Sylvester in Venice. Sylvester crashed into a bridge while piloting a motorized gondola. He didn't see the "Ducka you head. Lowla Bridgeta." sign.
that and hey, it was a nice night... who would want to be crammed in an R68 with no breeze?
Maybe they need to make some convertable type subway cars, or outfit some of them old work flatbeds wtih benches like some tourist railways do.
That would be SO AWESOME! Beyond awesome. I'd pay $5 for a ride. Maybe more. Scratch that, I'd pay $50 to ride the whole system on a flatcar at normal operating speeds. They could have seatbelts. And the people who don't wear the seatbelts would just fall victim to natural selection.
>>I'd pay $50 to ride the whole system on a flatcar at normal operating speeds<<
That rings a bell! In November of 1979, I attended an unusual fantrip using the museum Low-Vs and a flat car with benches on a trip called "The Mosholu Transfer". See the November 2000 photo of the NYC Subways calendar to see what this consist looked like.
Starting at Grand Central shuttle track, ticket holders entered the Low-V and made their way to the benches on the flat car. The flat car I believe was #F401. It was fitted with wooden benches and side rails. The flat car and benches were painted in the same tuscan red scheme as the Low-Vs.
After we sat down the fan trip began. The flat car was on the head end being pushed by the Low-Vs with a motor instructor on the front. Picture this, just like MOW employees riding a flat car, so were we, though we were railfans with cameras.
We went down the Lexington Ave local to City Hall loop for a picture pose and up the Lex to Burnside Ave on the Woodlawn-Jerome. Whether in the tunnel or on the "el", we were riding much like a convertible with the top down. Rushing through the tunnel with the columns wizzing by was a thrill of a lifetime. A couple of times I looked back and it looked like a Low-V was chasing us through the tunnels !
After the Burnside Ave lunch stop it was up Jerome to Concourse and then to the Concourse subway. The looks we got from the passengers on the platforms was well worth the ticket price.
This was put together by Hugh Dunne of the ERA, such a thing in today's lawsuit happy climate would never happen. But it did and I was glad to be a part of it.
Bill "Newkirk"
But it did and I was glad to be a part of it.
Sure, rub it in for the rest of us why dontcha!
Yeesh, they can't just make us all sign papers saying we won't sue?
From which relative direction was that photo taken? Does the track in that stretch of tunnel follow the express or local ROW? I know the shuttle track connects to the downtown local track on the 6.
Sounds fun only if you're wearing eye protection and a filter face mask...
Pretty cool. I was on a fantrip on the LIRR that used gondola cars for us to sit in out to Greenport. That also was worth the looks we got at stations or grade crossings. That trip was cool, but wow in the subway! The closest the rest of us can get to that is riding between cars on a R40 slant.
Riding on a flatcar?! Cool!
What a great trip that sounded like, Bill. Wish I coulda been there!
BMTman
I'm glad that trip actually happened and you got to ride it. Sounds like a trip of a lifetime.
Can anyone remember riding similar trips with MUDC's pushing the flatcar on the 3rd Ave. El? Photos have been published.
Of couse, the first such subway trips went thru City Hall Station in 1904. Again, photos have been published. And what about the floodlight train used in the filming of the IRT movie?
James F. Boylan
General Freight Agent
Tyburn Railroad Co.
Fairless, Pa.
The R-62 has already done its testing on the Flushing when it came out in the 80's, and all possible problems that the car could have with the Flushing Line are gone. So expect the R-62a to be dominating the Flushing Line Soon!
If you asked me, I'd speculate that this was more to familiarize Corona Shop crews with the R62 and allow T/O's to get used to handling the train type on the 7's ROW. There is no test beyond that.
Wasn't there something about The Steinway Tunnel that made the use of the R-62 impossible unless minor adjustments were made to the tunnel?
I don't remember who said it on this board, or when, but he or she mentioned that the modifications were made to the tunnels unless I'm wrong. Someone correct me please.
I know the guard lights kept getting knocked off the cars. I have been wondering how they ever resolved that.
Apparently, and I read my information here...
The tracks were not alligned in the tunnel correctly, and that they have been re-seated.
Elias
That's certainly possible. I guess the 62's are a tad wider than the Redbirds (???) -obviously not much, though
The line has been completely rebuilt since those cars last ran there. There may be a few nuances. But wouldn't you think that an operator in the system would know how to operate all but the newest generation of equipment, with little more difficulty than finding the switches for the horn and wiper? I can drive any car (as long as it's an automatic, because I never figured out how to go slow with a standard), I need only find all the auxilary equipment. Gas, brake, and steering wheel are all the same, and perform the same functions no matter the vehicle.
-Hank
The Association of American Railroads, the AAR, sets standards for railroad equipment, design and safety, including new equipment design. An AAR certified Console is the same in an ALP as is in a Genesis as far as placement of buttons, valves and throttles. Employee Ergonomics is being made an important issue in railroad throttles. Happily for the Transit Authority, they get away with whatever they want in new car engineering. I'm sure plenty of T/Os will be complaining of the new master controllers on the R143 when their hands go numb. Another reason to get rid of T/Os.
Going slow with a stickshift is easy. Just keep it in second or third gear and go easy on the gas. The engine braking in the lower gears helps as well. And when I'm in 4-wheel-drive, the engine braking is doubled, even more so when using the granny gears.
Are the R62 trains a little larger than the redbirds? What was the problem on the line?
Notice the train has no railfan window. Next, when was this picture taken and was that train pasted in?
The picture is from the 1980s, taken looking north from the southbound platform at Woodside (the switches give it away). I didn't even read his description and I could tell because the rubber molding is still on the frame of the storm window. Also, there's a "whitebird" heading north in the background.
Perhaps they had transverse-ified the cab to do the testing? Though why would the train be 5 cars long... 5 is a very weird number for the TA of the 80s. 4 or 6 would have made more sense. Pic looks authentic, though.
Supposedly, the R-62s which ran tests on the 7 had their cabs converted to full-width, then reconverted back to half cabs after they returned to the mainlines.
YEP U R RIGHT !! NO RAILFAN WINDOW !! HELLO CHICAGO !!
THE GOOD OLD DAYZ R OVER !!
The R-62 and R-62As were both tested on the #7 line. That photo looks like the R-62, how can I tell. The bottoms of the pantograph gates are different. Compare photos and you'll see.
Bill "Newkirk"
If the R-62As have already run on the Corona-Flushing Line, they should have no problem running on the Corona-Flushing when they are transferred there.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey party people,
I am in nyc for 4 more days, I want to see the R143 if possible... Does anyone know what time the new L train will be at the 8th ave station? Also, is it safe to ride that line into Brooklyn?
Thanks,
Allen
Now that it is out of testing, it could be any time. The good thing about the L line is that if you miss it, it only about 1:30hours before its back again. As for riding the L, yes it's safe to ride, just after dark don't get off at New Lots Ave or Linden Blv station, as other Subtalker say there not one of the best parts.
Robert
Do you still need an escort to Linden Yard for work trains or is it safe enough to go on your own?
Explain further, please?
Well when I go there I alway go with my partner from Cancier, or I driver there if I know that train is going to lay up there after the G/O. So I still think that the area is not that good.
Robert
I caught it yesterday at approximately 5:15 PM Manhattan-bound at Mrytle-Wyckoff.
Shawn.
Oh...You caught my train. I was the Conductor on that interval.
-Mark W.
I've experienced some aggravating things on the LIRR but this one takes the cake.
Yesterday, I took the 3:13 p.m. Far Rockaway train out of Flatbush Avenue. Before pulling out, numerous announcements were made both by the Flatbush Avenue station master and the train crew that the train was running express between Jamaica and Valley Stream, with no stops at Locust Manor, Laurelton or Rosedale. This was as it should be.
I sat in a mid-train car. Shortly before the train pulled out, the assistant conductor arrived, a heavy-set woman in her 30's.
The train made it to Jamaica without incident. At Jamaica, the ass't conductor again announced that the train would be traveling express to Valley Stream, without stopping at the aforementioned intermediate stations.
The train then pulled out of Jamaica. A few moments later, the aforementioned ass't conductor called for the engineer to go to Channel 4, which was done. A few minutes later, the train pulled into Locust Manor station and stopped. The ass't conductor opened the doors and waited by one set of doors, looking out onto the platform. This, despite the fact that the platform was clearly deserted and presumably anyone who wanted to get off at Locust Manor got off at Jamaica, per her announcement, and waited for a local. The train remained stopped for approximately 30 seconds with the doors open. Passengers started to look around, wondering what was going on. Suddenly, I saw a young man, approximately 30, running up the stairs to the platform carrying a Macy's bag with something in it. He rushed over to the open doors where the ass't conductor was waiting, smiled and handed her the bag. He then ran back down the stairs.
The ass't conductor opened the bag and pulled out a leather jacket. She then went back to her cab, closed the doors and buzzed the engineer to proceed. She then radioed the engineer and said "thanks." The train then proceeded to Valley Stream.
Now I understand that LIRR employees are just people and have their needs, but I felt outraged by this event. Although the stop was short, about 90 seconds in total, I am very angry that this woman stopped a train on a scheduled run for a purely personal reason, without regard for passengers. It sets a very bad precedent. What's next, the Engineer stopping at Laurelton to pick up some Krispy Kremes and coffee?
Krispy Kremes no. Dunkin Donuts maybe. White Castle yes.
the wonderful taste of regurgitated fake beef
I ate there once don't make me throw up. I don't have a trash basket nearby.
I can't eat their food either....and I'm a fast food junkie!
Stuart D. Guberman
Engineer # 018
Vice President - Virtual Amtrak
www.vamtrak.8m.com
You'd have to stop at Lynbrook in order to pick up White Castles. And then Mitch45 would really have something to complain about since Lynbrook's not even on his line.
CG
There's a White Castle by the West Hempstead LIRR station also. I was railfanning that line with a friend once, and we stopped at the White Castle there and I locked my keys in the car.....can't forget.
BTW, there's also a brand new White Castle at the Wyckoff M station. Good to know if your ever railfanning the M.
They really ought to put notations in the schedules for nearby White Castles. Kind of like the little picture of a bus that they'll put next to a station with bus service or the handicap symbol for stations with ramps/elevators. They could just have a little castle.
CG
Exactly....lol.
The new one you're talking about is at the corner of Myrtle & Gates. It is near where I work and I tried it. One thing I didn't like about it is you got an empty cup & filled your own drinks, much like Burger King. The place didn't seem too clean considering it was new. A much better Castle not too far from there is the one on Metropolitan between Bushwick and Graham. (Yeah I know that's about a 3 block stretch but I forget exactly which cross street its at) Thats right near the Graham Av station on the 14St Canarsie Line.
On a negative note, very negative, they just closed the W.C. near me on Hempstead Tnpk attached to Home Depot in East Meadow. That was very close to me, now I have to go to West Hempstead to satisfy my craving.
>>> they just closed the W.C. near me on Hempstead Tnpk attached to Home Depot in East Meadow. That was very close to me, now I have to go to West Hempstead to satisfy my craving. <<<
I certainly hope the "W.C." you mentioned is not a British abbreviation. :-)
Tom
You have to use it after eating at a White Castle anyway.:-)
I see FoodTalk has returned...
With the quality of what is served at White Castle (harumph!!!) you will definitely need the W.C. afterwards.
Who needs Ex-Lax? Half a dozen White Castle "burgers" will clean the pipes like nothing other.....
The place didn't seem too clean considering it was new.
Have you ever seen a White Castle that is really "clean" though. Their standards are not as high as other fast food restaurants.
>>> The place didn't seem too clean considering it was new. <<<
That's White Castle ambiance. It comes with the franchise. :-)
Tom
Gotta love W.C.s marketing strategy. They opened one in Brentwood a half block from the station. You get off the train in the evening and that White Castle aroma is wafting over the platform - and suddenly your sure you gotta have one for the trip home.
This reminds me of a great, pre-unlimited Metrocard, way to enjoy Castles without having to pay an extra fare. Remember how the defunct Culver shuttle was replaced by a transfer-ticket ride on the B35 between the two incumbent services?
If I were hungry, I'd get off the 'B' at 9th Avenue, get a transfer, walk a few blocks to the Castle at Fort Hamilton & 43rd, eat, then walk back to 9th & 39th and board the B35 towards Church & McDonald, where I'd re-enter the system for the 'F'. The reverse was also possible, but I'd get off the bus at Fort Ham & 39th.
All this was achieved without paying an extra fare. Of course, when two-fare zones were eliminated in July '97, so was the ability to do this- at least until the Unlimited was introduced a year later.
Hey it's worth the extra Dollar for a funpass if you feel like the White Castles. Someone mentioned having a little caste on "the Map" to designate which stations have a white castle near them. Sounds good to me...........
If MTA did that then McDonald's, Taco Bell, Burger King and all the other fast food places would be complaining about not getting their free plug. The biggest complaint would probably be from some small one-store chain.
Well I was thinking about it for railfans, and White Castle seems to come up ovewr and over, on all different posts, I never heard of any of the other fast food chains mentioned. (PROBABLY BECAUSE THE OTHERS ARE EASIER TO FIND)
Perhaps White Castle can pay for a mini map which will have castle symbols at those stations where we can find a White Castle. To avoid problems they can be given away at White Castles.
See if you can spot one near Smallbany ... the best we get here is those AWFUL 6 per cardboard box, frozen ... it's as bad as the damnable Goya Empanadas masquerading as Jamaican Meat Patties ... yeah you can get White Colon up here, but there's nothing like eating one right off the onion pile on the grill LIVE ... it just ain't the same nuking them, or taking the (ahem) "meat" out and heating it fresh while defrosting the bun ...
SAVOR that sack ... it's a SAD sack up here ...
White Castles used to have little booklets available at the stores saying where their locations are. I don't think they have them anymore. But you can ask a store manager. I assume they also have a website so maybe you can click a location.
Nearest store manager here is Cleveland. No thanks. :)
They're just not the same though rubberized in a microwave. I miss being able to get to the one on Fordham Road ... and I'll bet it's STILL there ...
Aw come on now. Its not like Albany is in Austrailia. Just get on the Taconic and you'll be in the Bronx in 2 1/2 hrs!!! If I had a real craving for White Castles I'd drive the 5 hr round trip. (Just take the Thruway back because after eating at White Castle you'll need cleaner restrooms than the Taconic has to offer)
Heh. Yeah, you're right but I'm not quite THAT desperate for a dose of gas ... there's a McVomit's about four miles from here and I rarely have the time for that either. And if the wind's right, I can get home before Mayor McCheese cleans my clock. :)
A few years ago, I worked at West 28th near 7th Ave in Manhattan. I lived in Brooklyn. I took the downtown #1 train to South Ferry, took the Staten Island Ferry to St. George, took the Staten Island Railway to Grant City Station, walked up Lincoln Ave to Hylan Blvd, where there was a White Castle. After eating 10 burgers, I went across the street and took the S-79 to Brooklyn. All this for only ONE FARE!! I swiped the Metro Card at 28th Street station in Manhattan, the ferry was free, I swiped the card at St.George, where it said "free transfer", and dipped the card on the S-79, where it also said "free transfer"!
>>walked up Lincoln Ave to Hylan Blvd, where there was a White Castle. After eating 10 burgers<<
10 BURGERS ? Be careful bro', that's high octane fuel you're messing with !!
Bill "Newkirk"
They ain't called belly bombers for nothing!
To be specific, I recall eating 6 regular burgers, 2 cheeseburgers, and 2 Bacon cheeseburgers. And no ambulance was required!!
Are those things that "deadly"? In the commericals, you see the guy eating hundreds of em...
Not really, if you have a "strong" stomach. Years ago, after eating my usual 8-10 burgers during the summer, when I sweat afterward, I smelled the onions in my pores! Luckily, nowadays I'm immune to the stuff. Oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention, I washed down those 10 burgers with a DIET Coke!!
HEH...the diet Coke probably does the most "damage". 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
"I washed down those 10 burgers with a DIET Coke!!"
WOW! YOU COULDA HAD A V8!
No, they really aren't that deadly. I usually stay away from fast food places for health reasons but my exceptions are occasionally White Castle Burgers & Nathan's Franks. But nothing deep fried. I can't see how W.C. are any worse on your stomach than Mickey Dee's. They both have fried onions. One possible reason people associate W.C. with stomach problems is alot of people eat White Castle's late at night when they're bombed!
Mickey Dee's uses dehydrated onions on their "smaller" burgers and "fresh 'regular'" onions on 'em BIG muthas. I worked in the Sheepshead Bay Road Mickey Dee's for over a year, and 9 of those months as a Swing Manager...I know how 'em restaurants werk.
Stuart D. Guberman
Engineer # 018
Vice President - Virtual Philadelphia & Washington Railroad
(www.vamtrak.8m.com)
Wouldn't want to be near him after that!
O.K. Marty, if you really want to test your stomach stop at the Tower Island Jamaican Beef Paddy Factory on Atlantic and Boyland (formerly Hopkinson) in Brownsville. On the Boyland Street side is a retail outlet. Buy 2 paddys, spicy, don't cheat buy putting 'em in the Coco Bread (it hides the taste & dilutes the spiciness) and see if you need an ambulance!!!
Buy the way, even though you can buy Tower Islands anywhere they cook 'em the best at the factory since they wrote the directions!
Tht's ok, Jeff, I think I'll pass! The thing with White Castles is that they are not spicy, just GREASY! By the way, today I noticed that they are building a new CHECKER'S near me on Route 9 South in Sayreville! Unfortunately, today my doctor informed me that my cholesterol is too high. Oh, well, you can't win them all!
I wonder if W. C. burgers were ever offered at one of those Glutton Bowls.
Must have taken one HECK of a long time to get home, but well worth the time.
Speaking of MetroCards, for collectors, how much do the "Blue MetroCards" go for nowadays?
I have one of tohse, but ONLY one of them... it didn't take the TA long to replace them with MetroCard Golds.
The blue cards were good when the gold cards came in and they were good until the blue cards all expired.
Hey Z-Man, you mean to tell me with all the stuff you got you don't have Blue Metrocards?? Tsk tsk tsk!! :-)
Well, I do have one in excellent condition. But it's just a plain one with no advertising on it. Might only be worth $5 or something like that, but it's nice to have.
Even *I* have a blue Metro Card...
I was surprized in fact when I went to the city last and they wern't blue.
Elias
The prices are all over the place. I've avoided BUYING metrocards, as I prefer to trade, but I've heard for triple digets for some of the rare ones, e.g. NY Times July 1995 only 1,000 produced. Greg Loibl runs a swap show several times a year, the last one that I'm aware of occured Nov 10, 2001 at Soldiers & Sailors Club. Contact him at 212-563-5889 to get on his mailing list.
Mr rt__:^)
Where and how do you trade such things? I've been looking to get some of the weekly SEPTA passes from January, that had picutres of trolleys and Broad Street subway cars on them.
Mark
Westchester Avenue on the 6 Line for White Castle, within walking distance and you go right past one on the Flushing line The stop I cant remember off hand.
On the Flushing line, One of the oldest White Castles was at 70 St and Roosevelt. I'm not sure if it's still there.The only other one I can think of is at 40 St-Queens Blvd.
The White Castle at 69th & Roosevelt closed a way long time ago!
There is a White Castle on Queens Blvd and 43rd St (Flusing bound Side), and there is another one on Northern Blvd and 89th St
(#7 to 90Th St/Elmhurst Ave)
Another one on Queens Blvd near the mall
Centereach on Middle Country Rd.....
I wasn't sure about the one at 69 and Roosevelt.
Ther's also one on Commack Road and Motor Parkway
Ther's also one on Commack Road and Motor Parkway
Actually I think I meant Route 110 and Route 25A, I can't remember
Centereach on Middle Country Rd.
How it stays in business is a mystery. I go by there a couple of evenings a week on average and there are almost never any customers.
And the one in East Meadow was always crowded and they closed it. Go figure.
Sarge: waddaya doin' postin' at this hour in the morn? Ya best be hittin' da road to Shoreline....
;-D
10:30, right?
Also these stops:
Intervale on the 2/5 and Myrtle/Wyckoff on the L/M.
There is also one near Graham or Grand on the L.
Another is near Jay Street A/C/F and Lawrence Street N/R/M.
That DubyaSee (W.C.) on Willoughby Street (Jay St A/C/F & Lawrennce St. M/N/R) is a *beep* house....don't go there
There's one 3 blocks from my office, on 5th Ave and 33rd Street (6) to 33rd and walk up 33rd to 5th.
There is also one right next to the Flatbush Avenue (2)/<5> stop (on the very southern most stairway, and make a very small U-turn and voila! Just don't go there late at night...the 'hood isn't that friendly that late....
Stuart D. Guberman
Engineer # 018
Vice President - Virtual Philadelphia & Washington Railroad
(www.vamtrak.8m.com)
A W. C. by the Flushing line - 'nuff said.:-)
Outside of Queens Blvd and 40 St (Give or take a block),
Whre else on the Flushing line?
There is the one at 90 st and Queens Blvd. G, V or R to Woodhaven Blvd.
And one at Rockaway Blvd and 98 St.
Both are good places when you have a case of constipation. .
Is the one in Bay Ridge (right outside of the 95th St station of the R) still around?
--Mark
Nope. This location (as seen in Saturday Nite Fever) is now a North Fork Bank & Pizzaria Uno.
Gee, and I always thought the one on Saturday Night Fever was the one under the West End by 86th Street.
OK now, who remembers when at all the White Castles you sat at a counter with waitress service. If you ordered 4 the waitress would yell "four on one"! Also, who remembers when waitresses would come over to your car, take your order, then hook your tray onto the drivers side window?? As a kid my father used to take us to the West Hempstead one and we'd order in the car. The W.C. was a little west of where it is today, about where IHOP is. The RR crossing on Hempstead Tnpk was still there but no trains ever crossed there. There was a Wetson's across Hempstead Av by the W.Hemp. LIRR Station. I don't recall any MacDonalds in the area at that time. The only Burger King I remember in those days was by the E & F terminal at 179th & Hillside. None on LI at that time.
Is White Castle the place where the decor is all either black or white?
I seem to remember one on Atlantic Ave in East New York many years ago.
I think that one is still there, just west of the split with the Conduit.
I'm sort of surprised, since it has been so many years since I was there!
you would love amtrak they serve white castle burgers in thier microwave !!! woooooooo
It's definitely not the same as eating them "fresh" at a "restaurant"!
No problem ... just do a reverse move to get the train back to the Far Rockaway line. If the T/O called ahead there wouldn't be much of a wait :-)
Yes! The donut wars invade Subtalk. Every usenet newsgroup I post to, whether it's sports, pop culture or politics, the Krispy Kreme/Dunkin Donuts debate shows up, and it always gets ugly.
I despise Kispy Kreme with a passion rivaled only by my hatred for the New York Yankees and certain Middle Eastern types. If Krispy Kreme donuts were available to the Donner Party, they'd still eat the corpses. i LOVE DD, especially their coffee.
Sorry folks, but it's all about wendys. all that other fast food sucks it. except maybe mcdonalds fries...
Mickey Dee's fries are THE best in da werld....but Wendy's Triple Classic Cheeseburgers (#3 on the value menu) are THE best burgas in da werld. I try and save myself from cravings when I pass by the one on the corner of 33rd and Fifth. All hail the late Dave Thomas!
Stuart D. Guberman
Engineer # 018
Vice President - Virtual Philadelphia & Washington Railroad
(www.vamtrak.8m.com)
Damn straight! Wendy's is the only fast food I eat (and that my stomach lets me).
Sorry folks, but it's all about wendys. all that other fast food sucks it.
Wow, how interesting that anybody thinks this. I think Wendy's has really gone downhill -- STRAIGHT downhill -- for about the past ten years. I can't eat their hamburgers any more, they're just gross. And I used to love 'em! *sniff*
-- Tim, in self-imposed exile....
Damn, that is bad! I understand your frustration comletely!
You laugh. I'm a lawyer, and in my line of work, if I'm arguing a motion before a judge and then stop in the middle to take a personal phone call or something, I'll end up in contempt.
I think this is just another example of transit employees taking liberties at the expense of riders while complaing how badly they're being treated.
Like MNRR guys using the PA smartaleck coments about each other. They weren't insulting the passengers though, but it was fall down laughing.
Your kind of attitude illustrates why many people hold the legal profession in such contempt.
All so true....I wonder myself sometimes WHY I chose to be a paralegal instead of fulfilling my dream (working for a *real* railroad instead of a *virtual* one [see below])
Stuart D. Guberman
Paralegal & IT Manager - Ledy-Gurren & Blumenstock
Engineer # 018
Vice President - Virtual Philadelphia & Washington Railroad
(www.vamtrak.8m.com)
Document it (time, place, description of conductor) and write a letter to LIRR.
I agree with you and sympathize with your frustration. If it's important enough to you, you can do something about it.
Document it (time, place, description of conductor) and write a letter to LIRR.
I agree with you and sympathize with your frustration. If it's important enough to you, you can do something about it.
Of course, writing even a brief letter will take considerably more time that the 90 seconds which the unauthorized stop consumed. I know, there's the whole issue of bad precedent and all that, but sometimes it's just easier to choose one's battles wisely.
Bottom Line:
Was the train ON TIME at Valley Stream???????
On time means upto 5 minutes and 59 seconds after the official arrival time. Learned it from this months MNRR Mileposts. [It's a newsletter for plain bussness commuters]
I would have confronted her, letting everyone within earshot know why they were delayed.
Subway employees do this to. Once, on a J train running skip stop towards Jamaica, the conductor stopped the train at Norwwod Ave, keyed open the front door leaf to allow a CIVILIAN friend to get off the train.
Very true. But it's up to the poster in question to decide if it's worth it to him...
Even if it's not worth it to him, it could be worth it to the other passengers on the train who don't know where to write a letter to. Besides, if she stopped for a leather jacket this time, what's to stop her from something else another time?
OK we're stopping at New Hyde Park because I have to pick up some Dunkin Donuts coffee.
>>> if she stopped for a leather jacket this time, what's to stop her from something else another time? <<<
If the train stops between stations and the whole crew gets off and sits down for a picnic lunch and start passing a joint around, it will be time to write a letter, not for a 90 second stop. Lighten up, this was annoying, not OUTRAGEOUS.
Tom
I don't think I'd have even found it annoying....as long as the train got to its next station on time (which it probably did, but NBODY seems to want to mention that.....)
Obviously you don't care when you arrive at your destination.
It's 90 seconds here, what if it's something else down the line, a stalled train, etc....
the railroad isnt very punctual as it is.
I agree. Although not as outragous as what your LIRR conductor did, I had to endure a moronic conductor on an E train this morning who at 3 seperate stations made the announcement that this was an "E train to the World Trade Crater". I was NOT amused.
"Although not as outragous as what your LIRR conductor did, I had to endure a moronic conductor on an E train this morning who at 3 seperate stations made the announcement that this was an "E train to the World Trade Crater".
Oh man, that is so bad. That is in extremely bad taste.
Was it inappropriate? Yes Should the crew have done it? NO.
SHOULD YOU BE SO UPSET OVER 90 SECONDS OUT OF YOUR DAY?????
I really don't think in the big picture it really is worth too much of your energy. A letter to management couldn't hurt, but don't get too worked up over it, your health is more important.
The worst thing ever was on a stormy night when all trais were stuck in jamaica, they took the tickets and then discharged the train
Get a reciate, then take them small claims court with maybe a class action.
it was 6 years ago
Perhaps the Ass't Conductor had purchased that Leather jacket earlier in the day at the Macy's in Jamaica and simply forgot the bag? It was a simple courtesy. IF scenes like the one you described happen on A REGULAR BASIS, then of course you have a reason to complain.
Sounded like a one-time thing -- forgotten purchase and had an employee meet up with on during her run...
BMTman
HOWABOUT making out through the window at Jamaica? I saw a engineer do that once.
Well, as long as she's not hanging off the side of the train when it starts up............
Once I saw a bus driver lying down and making out with his girlfriend while walking by an NYCT bus in Queens. Man that sure takes the cake!
In the seat right next to the rear door.
They should have passed it up on the fly via a train order hoop.
That's no excuse. She should have dealt with it on her own time, and in a way which did not affect LIRR commuters, no matter how short the delay was.
And to go on a completely sexist rant, does the LIRR T/O do this courtesy for a male conductor?
Like this kinda thing isn't done in the subway too. I've seen an J train pull into Essex and stop near the door to Essex tower many times. I've seen the TWO/O and T/O exchange newspapers, cups, etc.
Shawn.
They where haveing a small chat at the same time
They might as well install a bathroom with no toilets or sinks. Just for the girls.
I once was on a New Haven express and the train stoped at harrisburg and a MNRR worker (off duty) key opened the door and got out and the train speed off. It was about 70 seconds.
What would a MNRR worker be doing on a NEW HAVEN Express stopping in Harrisburg? Isn't Pennsylvania a bit out of the territory for both MNRR and New Haven?
Yeah...........that's Amtrak turf, not commuter turf.
Stuart D. Guberman
Engineer # 018
Vice President - Virtual Philadelphia & Washington Railroad
(www.vamtrak.8m.com)
Have you ever heard of a perk before? For any job one can imagine there are perks and things employees can do simply because they are employees. I am sure that everyone out there has taken some personal advantage of their job with some minimal inconvience to the customers. I feel that this LIAR employee was well within the leeway granted allowed via the perk system. As long as the actions are no chronic or seriously disrupting just roll with them. Laugh it off. Give the AC a high five for pulling off something straight out of a Mentos ad.
Hell yeah! That's what I was thinking too! So long as the train's on time, who cares?
Hell, on a NJT line (completely forgot which) I once saw them stop the train to pick up a civilian (female) from her backyard! Now that's door to door service if I ever saw it!
Haha, I wonder why they picked her up ;) ;)
Definitely something personal there!! lol
I agree....as long as safety was not compromised, and the trains till arrived at its next station on time, what the hell is the deal?
Not only that, every commuter on that train has an amusing story to tell. It turned a boring commute into something worthy of note.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I AGREED WITH ONE OF YOUR POSTS!!!!!!!!!
(I NEVER thought that such a day would come!!!!!!!)
Definately write the LIRR on that. Using the train for one's personal gain should be grounds for immediate dismissal.
You really gotta be kidding to want her to lose her job for that. But then its probably jealously because she has a job.
John, If conductor loses her job, then she can't pay taxes. If that happens, social services will be cut. If that happens, you won't be able to live on the public dole any more. I guess a fool who never held a job wouldn't undestand the consequences of losing one.
Here we go again with another never-held-a-job type saying someone should be losing theirs for doing some little thing that REALLY didn't affect anyone.
Obviously, some people think they never make mistakes.
Reminds me of this stupid female the other day at my transit system...she was saying how the information operator should have been fired for giving her wrong information -- trouble is, SHE didn't follow the instructions, got on the wrong bus, and then tried to blame the info operator and the drivers, even though she had the correct info written down!!!!!
John's the type that would want the weatherman fired if the predicted 4" of snow and we got 5".
Uh oh. Glad I kept my day job.
Sorry Todd. I wasn't referring to you. I know when you say 4" of snow, we get 4" of snow. Besides, my wife likes your voice on the radio.
The more I think about it John, you're right. The asst. conductor should've opened a window and had her friend throw the coat into it while the train was moving, the same way "Charley of the MTA's" wife threw his lunch to him on the train.
Why couldn't she just get it on the return run (when she got back to Jamaica). Or if she wasn't returning to Jamaica that day, she'd pick it up the next workday.
Why inconvenience a whole trainload of people because of a coat for yourself. I would never have the balls to do that.
Next thing you know the bus driver is gonna make a stop to pick up chinese food.
>>> Next thing you know the bus driver is gonna make a stop to pick up chinese food. <<<
Or worse yet, a cop on patrol is going to stop at a doughnut shop and get a cup of coffee and a doughnut to consume in his car, allowing untold numbers of evildoers to walk the streets unobserved. :-^)
Tom
Hey! I drive a bus, but one thing I will NOT do is get Chinese food while on my route. Makes too much of a mess trying to eat it and drive. Pizza slices work better.
I just wish there was a place to get a good doughnut. Krispe Kreme is air and Dunkin Donuts taste stale with not enough icing.
OK where's a good place to get a doughnut?
Wow........Dunkin Donuts, Krispe Kreme, White Castle (not necessarily together)...........all this food talk is getting me hungry...............
John, all the info you want is on Donut-talk. Check out WWW.Donut-Talk.org. BTW, John, do you know what D-O-N-U-T-S is when you spell it backwards?
ENTENMANN'S
At your local supermarket!! EVEN IN SEA CLIFF Better than either Duncan Doughnuts or Krispy Kreme!!!
Ahh, but there's nothing like Tim Horton's... (now you know why I make a trip to Canada every year, I've got to have my fix).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now that's quality!
Everything they make is good!
Mmmmm, cherry cheese danish, walnut rings, lemon coconut cake ....
During the holiday season you should make a point to try their Fruit Stollen!
Actually you're right, they are pretty good.
Maybe because wherever the train was goin to, it was colder than a witch's tit????
Mitch 45,
Write Tom Prendergast a letter about this. And when your receive your letter of reply, let us know what they said.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think Tom Prendergast works for the LIRR anymore. I think there is a new guy in town, but I can't recall his name.
Bauer
Make sure you address it to Mr. Prendergast in care of the London Underground.....
Last July my son and I took LIRR to Far Rockaway, from Jamaica (we were railfanning, & took the A train back). We bought one way tickets, and boarded the front car, hoping to use the railfan window. We were blocked out by the engineer who blocked the cab door open with his bag. The conductor was in that car, and spent most of the trip BS'ing with the Engineer. He never collected one ticket in the car.
Of course we caught an R44 back, no railfan window.
He was really doing his job well!!!
But you got to keep your tickets, which can be refunded / used again at any time. More often than not, LIRR LEs will keep the door open. You're lucky the first car was open, must've had a non-smoking LE or a peak train.
If it were me and I had a choice between keeping my ticket and a railfan window, I'd keep the ticket.
But you had your son w/you, so I guess money isn't important in that respect.
Meh, they do it all the time here in Calgary...not that they want to, tho. The damn downtown section is directed by ORDINARY TRAFFIC LIGHTS! NOT RAILWAY SIGNALS, BUT TRAFFIC LIGHTS!
Take 1 stoppage at 30 seconds or so...multiplied by at least 2 to 4 times (Gawd don't even make me multiply by the entire number of traffic lights, that would be absolutely incredulous.)
Answer: 1 to 2 minutes. Thank your lucky stars the LIRR runs entirely on private ROW...The LRT here in Calgary (and in many other places) certainly doesn't.
-JLeung!
You can't necessarily know that it was a personal stop -- LIRR crew have been known to attempt some odd things in order to get lost items to their recipients. I was on a Babylon train one evening and an intoxicated woman changed at Jamaica for Hempstead -- and left behind a large duffel bag. As the trains proceeded east from Jamaica, the two crews radioed each other debating whether they could stop the two trains and toss the bag from one train to the other. They decided against it because the bag was heavy and there was a one track gap between the two trains. They agreed that the Babylon crew should dump it off at lost and found when they got back to Penn.
Even if it was a personal item, a 90 second extra stop on a mid-day holiday train doesn't seem to over the top -- especially if it's a one time thing. Since the guy came running up to the train, it seems like the parties involved realized they were potentially inconveniencing people.
While you might get tossed in the cage for taking a cell phone call in the courtroom, nobody (including your client) would care if you worked for 57 minutes, made a 2 minute personal call, and then billed the client for an hour.
On a side note, I'll never understand why they put Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale on the Long Beach branch for the weekends. There were always plenty of people riding from Flatbush and Nostrand Avenues to those stations.
CG
Absolutely right! One time, while working the Raritan Valley Line, I delayed the train about 2 1/2 minutes at Cranford to return a wallet a passenger had lost on a previous train. I found the wallet at the end of the previous trip, left a phone message for them. They called me back as we approached Roselle Park heading west. Cranford is the next stop, so I had to wait for them just a couple of minutes. Of course, no reward was given!
Where can you get Krispy Kremes at Laurelton?
After reading the above story, I am wondering if the conductor and the engineer are going to be both disciplined after word gets out that this happened. If I recalled, something similar was writtened awhile back in the SubTalk about employees doing "personal stuff" on work time. All I can say, these employees that work for the LIRR must have a strong union if they think they can get away with this sort of activity. In previously discussions, I was always amazed how cleancut the younger-aged conductors seems to be as opposed to the older 40+ crowd that does not seem to care about about their personal appearance when they come to work and interact with the public. I could see men walking around with long hair is if they had just come from a Woodstock concert or something. It seemed that these guys don't take much pride in their work if the must show up this way to work each day.
I remember posting in December about a 15 minute late departure from Ronkonkoma to Penn on a Saturday. The scheduled train never made it out of the yard so an inbound train was short turned. Because the crew waited for the last minute to notify the dispatcher, the inbound train was routed to the track where nobody was waiting for the train. If the crew notified in a timely manner, the inbound train could have been routed to the track where passengers were waiting.
I got nothing but complaints about making a mountain out of a 15 minute molehill. Now, I read about a 90 second delay and I can't believe the number of responses. I haven't read all the messages but of the ones I've read, Nobody has taken Mitch45 to task about complaining about a 90 second delay.
HMMM!
Michael
Formerly of New York
Now in Washington, DC
The only requirement for the conductors is that they show up in uniform with their equipment. There is no rule or law stating that they must be clean shaven to do there job. Did you stop and think maybe some of these guys don't want a beard or wear their hair close because that's how they like it?
Aside from the fact that the gender, weight and age of the conductor were irrelavent, if you keep sweating the small stuff, you may not see old age. I can't believe that anyone would get so aggrevated over a few seconds.
2 Weeks ago, the 5:36 out of Penn Station had a problem. Instead of leaving from 14 track, we left from 20 track. The train normally on 20 track was moved to 17 or something near there. Despite many announcements on th train and in the station, thre was some confusion. People got onto the wrong train. Normally, the first stop is Massapequa but we made an unscheduled stop in Lynbrook to let the people off who boarded the wrong train. Was that stop les annoying to those who took the trouble to listen to the announcements and get on the correct train?
In your case, there are many possible explanations as to what happened that might not involve some indulgence by the crew. They may have been retrieving lost property - for one example. But if not, if it were an indulgent act, is it really such a sin. How many times have you been on an express that made an unscheduled stop to let a dead-heading crew member off? Cal it perks of the job or call it outrageous behavior, but get over it.
Well, that beats my story of how I was on a express to Penn Station one morning and the conductor announced that we will not stop at Hicksville. When we got there, the platform was PACKED. We stopped and surprise, the doors opened and all hell broke loose. Then we were "supposed" to run express to Jamaica. We made every stop except Westbury. Go figure.
This unnecessary delay to the train is completely unacceptable, and should be grounds for a write up. If she was so concerned by this stupid jacket why couldn't she have the lazy bastard come and meet the train in Jamaica, which is maybe 10 minutes away from Locust Manor (by car or bus). I speak my mind, and had I been on the train she would've gotten fully ragged by me, not to mention I would have took her badge number (on the hat), the train interval (3:13 Far Rockaway to Flatbush), station incident occurred and the time it occurred and filled out a Customer Comment card detailing the occurence or call the LIRR and make a complaint. This is unacceptable to be delaying a train just for a crew member to pick up a personal item. If it was an employee drop off that's one thing (it's a professional courtesy), but delay a train just to pick up a personal item is uncalled for.
Please let me know what interval you make. It would be interesting to see what happens when you get written up for improper door operation the first time you re-open for a cute young lady.
Please let me know what interval you make. It would be interesting to see what happens when you get written up for improper door operation the first time you re-open for a cute young lady.
Uhhhhh....not likely!! If you wanna reopen, DON'T TURN THE MDC KEY, give one long to the T/O, then reopen, then close down according to procedure. How can I get written up for this!! Think, my friend, THINK!!! (It should be noted I have done this in FULL VIEW of a T.S.S. on the E line!! No write ups!!! Maybe you oughta check your door operation, because since you seem to know about this, has it happened to YOU???)
Nope - never written up for improper operation, sick leave or lateness either. I was never a conductor, either. The point was that you should not be so quick to want to see a fellow conductor written up for what surely was likely a minor offense if, indeed, it was a violation at all. If it were YOU, you'd want all the facts known before Ms. Bond had you written up.
I think it is unnacceptable for one conductor to write up another conductor. I don't think she will ever honor your pass on the LIRR.
They hardly do anyway now!!! (Although from how I heard it, the Station Department is to blame.....they give the LIRR people a hard time when they try to use their pass one the subway)
Although I usually drive to work since I work nights, when I have to an occasional day tour I take the train to avoid traffic. One day I ran up the stairs at Hicksville Station to make a train that was already stopped in the station. Since most trains stop at Jamaica I assumed this one would. (I get off at E.NY on the Bklyn Line to get the J) As soon as the doors closed and the train started moving I heard an announcement "This is an express to New York, Next stop Penn Station". After speaking to 2 asst. conductors I found the real conductor (a female without a leather coat) and asked her if she could stop at Jamaica. She said she'll ask the engineer if we were going on a track with a platform. He didn't know but said if there is a platform he'll stop. The bottom line is they stopped at Jamaica and let me off. Good thing John wasn't on the train or they could've been fired.
Actually I think that was really nice of them. It probably had to move slowly through Jamaica anyway.
Speed limits on non-stop Penna Station trains through "Jamaica, mon" is 15 MPH. This is from my friend who is a E/R (Engineer in "NYCTTalk") on the LIRR.
Stuart D. Guberman
Engineer # 018
Vice President - Virtual Philadelphia & Washington Railroad
(www.vamtrak.8m.com)
I'm sure if you were wearing your uniform, no one thought a thing about it!
Well that is alot more valid than a leather coat. If a person has to get off than I can definately understand letting them off, especially if it's at a main terminal like Jamaica.
How much time do they actually save by not stopping? They go so slow through Jamaica anyway.
Another "suprise express" is one of the late afternoon trains from Port Jefferson. After Huntington it's express to Jamaica. Since it's off peak you'd think it would stop at a major stop like Hicksville, so I have a feeling there are passengers that get mixed up.
Why is that a more valid reason? If you are going to be delayed, are you less delayed because it was a person and not a lost article? Here's something for you to try to contemplate, John. I was on a train the other AM that left 10 minutes late from Speonk. It was 8 late when I got on. It arrived at Jamaica - ON TIME (actually we were early). Now what difference does it make if the Conductor stopped for 20 seconds or 90 seconds for whatever reason if the train gets to its' destination - ON TIME?
One day I ran up the stairs at Hicksville Station to make a train that was already stopped in the station. Since most trains stop at Jamaica I assumed this one would. (I get off at E.NY on the Bklyn Line to get the J) As soon as the doors closed and the train started moving I heard an announcement "This is an express to New York, Next stop Penn Station". After speaking to 2 asst. conductors I found the real conductor (a female without a leather coat) and asked her if she could stop at Jamaica. She said she'll ask the engineer if we were going on a track with a platform. He didn't know but said if there is a platform he'll stop. The bottom line is they stopped at Jamaica and let me off.
I've noticed that conductors usually are accommodating in that sort of situation. Quite often it seems to happen with Hicksville-bound passengers who get onto the 5:22 from Penn to Ronkonkoma, first scheduled stop Wyandanch. The conductor will ask the passenger to wait by a certain door, which he or she will key open when the train (very briefly) stops at Hicksville. Very little time is lost.
>> I am very angry that this woman stopped a train on a scheduled run for a purely personal reason... <<
I wouldn't assume that and neither should anyone else here. As others have suggested, it may have been a passenger's lost item. I'd be frustrated too if I were in a hurry, but I wouldn't assume that it was a personal thing. Always interpret things in their best possible light.
Look for this editorial in today's New York Times:
Rethinking Rail Travel
IMO, this is a much more sensible stance than the Chicago Tribune's recent knee-jerk editorial. My only diagreement with the NY Times piece would be that I still think there's a place for long-distance trains like the Empire Builder, although the NY Times stops just short of calling for such routes to be scrapped outright. However, this is something that reasonable people can have an intelligent debate about, as sensible arguments can be made both pro and con regarding long-distance trains.
What I agree with them most on is their highlight of the obscene funding disparity between highways, airlines, and railways; and their push for a major investment in regional high-speed rail networks. Right on!
-- David
Chicago, IL
I like that piece.
I have ridden all the cross-country trains. Enjoyed it. Would do it again. But if I knew for a fact that Amtrak would actually be allowed to invest in the NEC if it discontinued the Empire Builder (temporarily, at least), I'd go for that.
But whoever said politics makes sense?
Ah Hem....
The Empire Builder serves more Senators than the NEC.
And I *do* ride it when I go to New York, even though the nearest station is a three hour drive from here.
The Builder also runs full most of the time.
Elias
..The Empire Builder serves more Senators than the
NEC. ...
More mportantly, The Builder, Starlight, , etc are not just end to end trains. Others have pointed out that the Coast Starlight often turns each seat two-three times in a run. That is the beauty of a long distance train. It serves ALL of the communities along the route. As I have said before, I want my tax money spent on trains rather the bright pebbles. It is all politics, but as to airline economics, look t the NYTimes Magazine piece on United Sunday. Even with all the goodies they lost more than ATK.
I like that train, too. Had a great time on it one summer.
If it were up to me, I'd fully fund Amtrak's network and not worry about whether or not it made a profit.
Two points:
1) We still need long-distance rail in case of an emergency in which air travel gets shut down, like we saw on September 11.
2) Even with the obscene (very appropriate word choice, David) bailout, airline profitability is still questionable. A story I head recently on NPR told how United Airlines is still bleeding money, despite the bailout. Rail must be profitable, but airlines can be as unprofitable as they like. Hmmm...
Mark
I also agree, that is a well reasoned article. I am in total agreement with the basic fact that highways and commercial airlways DO NOT MAKE A PROFIT! Those subsidies are not counted, but passenger rail subsidies are counted! WHY?
I must say I also must agree with the thought that the long distance trains are nice for us railfans, but they are a drain on the rail system overall. Rail place is (as the Times points out) in the 3 hour and under destinations. Not many people will spend several days going from NY to LA when they can fly it in 5 or 6 hours. But rail is very competitive time wise (downtown to downtown) on regional routes. If we invest in regional corridors, not just the NE, but Southern Cal (maybe even SD-LA-SF), StL-CHI-Milk-Minny and I'm sure half a dozen or so others, they could be very attractive also, the key is building infra-structure to allow Acela to run at 150 MPH. In Europe, major cities are closer together, so rail is much more popular, it may never be as popular in the USA due to the greater distances, but I think Europe has given us a blueprint to work from.
I still say the NY - Chi is within rail distance for the business traveler. You leave NYP around 4:30 PM and arrive in the City of Wind in time for your business meeting. Just *try* that on an airline, leave your office say at 4 PM, get out to the airport and wait... and wait... then fly, then get to a hotel in Chicago... Heck it will be well after midnight before you get to bed.
On the train, you arrive refreshed and ready to work, and didn't have to get up in the middle of the night just to transfer to a hotel room. And the sleeper costs no more than a NYC or (presumably) Chicago hotel room.
And yes it can be done, the did it with Steam Engines 80 years ago.
Elias
Let's say Chicago is 750 miles from New York. Let's also assume a constant velocity of 150 mi/h on a high-speed rail line.
If the infrastructure were in place, that's a mere 5 hours from New York to Chicago.
I have harped ad infinitum on the political forces in this country that have collaborated to suppress rail travel. Sadly, I fear the greatest country ever will pay for its shortsightedness.
The automobile is a symbol of individual freedom, and individual freedom is the opposite of communism. What is more American than individual freedom? And what is more American than the automobile? Unfortunately, many beneficial socialistic concepts, such as public transportation, were also victimized in the ongoing McCarthy-style witch-hunt against The Red Menace. The baby was thrown out with the bath water. I doubt September 11 will serve as much of a wakeup call. LaGuradia will be back to crush loading in no time, and the highways will be bumper-to-bumper come this summer.
I don't know what, if anything, can cause the required paradigm shift.
MATT-2AV
Right on, I'm a proponet of communism, as an eventual goal. But as you state, there are many nobel socialist goals that in the intrim have been and should still be implimented. Socialized medicine for one, all the European countries have it, the US does not. They have wonderful high speed rail. They acknowledge that all things can (and not all should) make money! Just look at our President, his tax cuts give millions to the richest 1 or 2 % and pennies and nickels for the average worker.
I must say that I was not impressed with the tax cuts. What is a piddling $300 or $600... ? Squat, that's what!
Before it was squandered suchly, it had mass, and could have done some good, especially in building infrastructure. We have a good highway system built with taxes, but now it is time to builld other things, and perhaps they ought not be built by the private sector or run at a profit.
Health care is an iffy thing. Doctors can run just as many tests as it takes to get all of the available payouts into their pockets. I fear that sometimes we demand too much form medicine and health care. It would be nice to have a 'basic health care package.' People (voters) should decide what is in the package and what is not, and justify each item with what they are willing to pay for in terms of insurance. Of course those who as have more money and want to spend it on health insurance that covers more should be free to do so. But I must warn you, Nelson Rockefeller *is* dead, despite what he could have paid for insurance.
Welfare is a quagmire over which I have not an answer. Yes there are those who truly need assistance, but sometimes I wonder if the government, (or what ever politition wants ther vote by bribing them with goodies) really gives a rat's posteriar appendage about them, or just wants to give them money to keep people quiet, and the city tranquil. In ancient Rome, this was called "bread and circus." Keep em fat and entertained and they won't upset your government.
Elias
Personally, I'm not a communist, but I feel we must look at the big picture to solve our problems. How can we do that if ideas, perceived (albeit correctly) as socialism, are taken off the table before the discussion even begins?
MATT-2AV
Let's say Chicago is 750 miles from New York.
On the old Pennsy routing - significantly shorter than New York Central's, but with much steeper grades - it was 900 miles.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I recall that the New York Central's slogan was "It's the water-level route; it lets you sleep."
Right. But having ridden both the Broadway and the Century I can say from personal experience that I slept equally well on both.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info. I was just going by highway miles as an approximation. There is a fundamental error in that approach, and you found it ;)
I'm surprised that there is such a discrepancy between highway and rail miles, but I guess there's mountains to cross and get around. Still, assuming a 900 mi route at an average speed of 150 mi/h, that's 6 hours travel time. Not bad!
MATT-2AV
A train can be competitive with air travel for trips up to 24 hours in length, if you're using a sleeper car, assuming the Amtrak bedroom and hotel bedroom are a wash cost-wise.
Profitability seems to be the point of contention, now doesn't it? The fundamental question, I suppose, is whether Amtrak is a business or a public service. For example, no one would complain that the fire department hasn't turned a profit in years, because fire-fighting is considered a public service and not a business.
So which is Amtrak? It obviously doesn't work as a business, so the question left is whether rail service is important enough that we should fund it as a public service the way we would other public services like fire protection, education, etc.
Opinions?
Mark
>>> It obviously doesn't work as a business, so the question left is whether rail service is important enough that we should fund it as a public service <<<
Even if passenger rail service cannot turn a profit in the sense of a dividend to shareholders, it is still not a yes or no question as to whether there should be government subsidized rail service. At one extreme there could be a commitment to provide passenger rail service to every city in the country with a population greater than 1,000, connecting to all other cities in the nation. At the other extreme is providing passenger rail service only in areas that it would be heavily used on runs of three hours or less. The latter extreme would require a much lower subsidy than the former. The answer is somewhere between those extremes. The current Amtrak service is a nationwide network. Those advocating the end of Amtrak would rather see interlocking regional rail service in the eastern half of the U.S., ceding the trans-continental travel to the airlines, and regional transpiration in the sparsely settled western areas to buses.
Tom
Nail ... head ... that's EXACTLY IT ... and yes, it's time for them pesky fire and police type individuals to show us their balance sheet. Maybe we'll invest ... and Enron has taught us precisely how to make it go ...
ENRONOMICS
A concrete-truck driver moved to Texas and bought a donkey from an old farmer for $100. The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day.
The next day, the farmer drove up and said, "sorry, but I have some bad news. The donkey died."
"Well, then, just give me my money back", said the truck driver.
"Can't do that. I went and spent it already."
"OK, then, just unload the donkey."
"What ya gonna do with him?"
"I'm going to raffle him off."
"You can't raffle off a dead donkey!"
"Sure I can. Watch me. I just won't tell anybody he's dead."
A month later the farmer met up with the readi-mix driver and asked, "what happened with that dead donkey?"
"I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars apiece and made a profit of $898."
"Didn't anyone complain?"
"Just the guy who won. So, I gave him his two dollars back."
There's a place for long distance trains like the Empire Builder as long as it's a conscious decision by politicians (state or federal) to fund them.
What's unfair is that Amtrak is expected to use its profits from the NEC to subsidize those trains.
(There's a place for long distance trains like the Empire Builder as long as it's a conscious decision by politicians (state or
federal) to fund them. What's unfair is that Amtrak is expected to use its profits from the NEC to subsidize those trains.)
Some people still take sea cruises too, but as a vacation, not a good way to get from A to B. AMTRAK is featherbedded and ineffective. And without it, government would have to face up to its responsibility to provide the ROW, as it does for motor vehicles, as the stations, as it does for airplanes. In that case, you'd get more long AND short distance trains.
Great article. The Times does it again!
MATT-2AV
Yes, it's a great article. I still believe rail should focus on regional areas and compete with commuter planes.
Yes! Although I think that a nationwide system for emergency purposes is necessary, I'd like to see fast trains take over from those annoying commuter airlines. Commuter airlines seem to me to be a monument to the one-size-fits-all thinking that has dominated American transportation.
Mark
We should have cross country rail as well, but that service would be maybe only 2-3 per day per line, catering to vactioners and not business travelers. Or course, if the demand is there, more trains would be added.
"We should have cross country rail as well, but that service would be maybe only 2-3 per day per line, catering to vactioners and not business travelers."
I think most of the people who want long-distance trains, including myself, could live with that quite happily. After all, most of the long-distance routes have only one train a day now, and two routes have trains only three times a week in each direction. Two trains a day on each existing route, plus maybe one or two more added routes (Chicago-Florida and something serving Las Vegas from the East) would be a significant improvement in service.
Grr the whole point is that those lines are the budget killers.
You still have to pay to maintain ROW, upgrade small stations to ADA standards. Have back up locos and crews in place just for one train.
Amtrak does (did?) have a train to Las Vegas, some if not all the Crescent trains to New Orleans would continue west.
Except for railfans and wealthy retirees, honestly how many people would spend more than half their 2 week vacation on a train.
It really is not fair to maintain a subsidy for long distance routes so that a few people can enjoy the Opera train (does that still run).
"Grr the whole point is that those lines are the budget killers."
As I will show below, I disagree strongly. While the NEC and any new corridors are a necessity, it is also true that they are significantly more expensive than long-distance trains. Amtrak expressly stated when it asked for $1.2 billion extra that only $200 million of that was needed for the long distance trains.
"You still have to pay to maintain ROW,"
Actually, Amtrak doesn't. Outside the NEC, they use almost exclusively freight railroad tracks. By law, they have to pay the railroads only the additional expenses caused by the individual trains.
"upgrade small stations to ADA standards."
Many Amtrak stations other than the big city stations like Chicago, Los Angeles, etcetera are actually the property of the community where the station is located. And since outside the NEC most lines are at grade, accessibility isn't an issue much of the time.
"Except for railfans and wealthy retirees, honestly how many people would spend more than half their 2 week vacation on a train."
1) Somebody's riding the trains. Contrary to popular perception, the long distance trains are generally heavily used all year round and full in the busy season. Try to make a reservation for a long distance trains for the summer, the few days on either side of Thanksgiving, or the week before or after Christmas and then come back and tell us that only railfans and wealthy retirees are riding the trains.
And the trains are full despite high fares. While coach fares are relatively cheap, sleepers are expensive. This is because Amtrak has only JUST enough cars to run the trains it runs now. Since they can't accomodate more passengers, it makes good sense to charge more and pare back the passenger demand to fit the cars they have. IMHO, if Amtrak had the money to buy the cars needed to run one or two more trains on each route, they could lower fares somewhat and fill those trains just as they fill the existing trains.
2) Lots of people who ride the long distance trains aren't spending half their vacation on the train. A train is not a plane, stopping only at its endpoints -- not everyone on a Chicago to California train is traveling from CHI to the West Coast. People traveling for BASIC TRANSPORTATION get on and off at places like Kansas City, Omaha, Denver, Salt Lake City, and Reno. Some seats on a train will carry two or even three different people on one trip.
"It really is not fair to maintain a subsidy for long distance routes so that a few people can enjoy the Opera train (does that still run)."
Once more, it's not just a few people. And what's an Opera train?!
>$1.2 billion extra that only $200 million of that was needed for the >long distance trains.
That is misleading anyway the NEC makes the most money for Rail and Air. The NEC sees more passengers per track mile too so the investment per passenger is not so high. If you kill the long lines you also get some more rolling stock for the more profitable lines.
>the few days on either side of Thanksgiving, or the week before or >after Christmas and then come back and tell us that only railfans >and wealthy retirees are riding the trains.
You can't rent a bicycle for those periods of time. Almost any Friday of the year you can get Lexington Ave rush hour loads on the NEC from 3-7pm.
Crew costs are higher on longer routes.
To boost ridership on the southern coast to coast they came up with an Opera train. I think it was a 2-4 week+ trip where you stop in each city in route and get a night or two at the local operas. It was a $4 grand trip.
some facts. The bilevel Superliners are not useable on the NEC--they are not high level platform capable (which in turn is why the are ADA compliant with a very cheap low tech chunk of cast aluminum used as a ramp.
As to a $4k cruise trip, THAT was not subsidised by ATK.
As John, )and I in another post) keep saying, the trains are NOT EMPTY. They may not resemble the Lex, but they are well used. Go out and see. Ask, JM and Lexcie about passenger counts on their recent tour.
>>> the trains are NOT EMPTY. They may not resemble the Lex, but they are well used <<<
If all AMTRAK trains are running at near capacity, and they are utilizing all the equipment that they have, and they are already charging high fares, WHY are they not making an operating profit?
Tom
Because profit is not possible in transport of humans in the real world.
No other mode of transportation pays its own way if you do a real accounting of costs typicly hidden in some ofr budget funds
For openers look at the NYTimes Magazine most recent concerning Uniter Airlines and their dismal financial performance.
Next try computing the actual sources of funding for Air Traffic Controllers, (the enrire FAA for that matter), airports built with taxfree municipal bond funding. The list goes on and they still don't make money most years.
Done the math recently on the real cost of driving? CHP's budget is not constrained by gasoline taxes, Stoplights are not funded from gasoline taxes alone, paving of city streets is not solely gas tax money. The lost revenue in real estate tax receipts caused by huge acreage "wasted" (IMHO) on freeways, let alone the monies being spent on the soundwall disaster. And while we are at it, when will the costs of US military forces in the oil patch be accounted on a usage basis like a real petroleum tax?
BTW, in the late sixties, it was the removal of the US mail contracts which sealed the fate of passenger service. Generally it was the "head end" cars that paid up the losses on the passengers. As a specific example, when Paul Reistrup was hired to 'fix' the passenger deficit at the B&O, he moved two mail cars from 9/10 to the flagship Capitol Limited thus making that train break even. Amd the one "dining" service in the 60's which was profitable was the otherwise bankrupt New Haven selling galloms of booze on evening trains departing Manhattan.
Yes! I've often wondered what the amount of property taxes lost was when real estate was paved over for expressways and freeways? It's not one-time; it goes on, presumably, forever. Cost accounting for transportation is an ongoing shell game.
>>> I've often wondered what the amount of property taxes lost was when real estate was paved over for expressways and freeways? <<<
OTOH, having the expressway there may increase the value of nearby property enough to provide an increase in taxes to replace the taxes lost from the paved over land. And it may cause other property to decrease in value. Think of the abandoned motels and gas stations on an old highway when it is replaced by an expressway. A rather tough accounting problem.
Tom
"For openers look at the NYTimes Magazine most recent concerning Uniter Airlines and their dismal financial performance."
IIRC, when the investor Warren Buffett was asked a few years ago why he didn't invest in airlines, he pointed out that the airline industry as a whole, from the Wright Brothers to that year, had only just then broken even. It's not so surprising when you consider not only the direct government provision of airports and the air navigation system but also the R&D money spent over the years (back to before 1910!) to improve military aircraft that ended up as improvements to civilian aircraft.
It's a tough business model.
The manufacturers will finance a plane for anyone. A startup has an advantage of a cheaper workforce even if they are union. The locals try to get you in to lower airfares.
If you stay in business you labor costs grows, for CSR's it can more than double. If you have a nice niche they next guy will come in and start stealing your business. If you with the help of another can lock out a hub the taxpayers will expand the airport so that others can come in.
Fuel prices are not stable.
"If you kill the long lines you also get some more rolling stock for the more profitable lines. "
You cannot run Empire equipment on the NEC. Just can't be done.
No way no How.
Elias
Go out and ride--the trains are generally full. What does it matter if they are railfans, hate airplanes like looking at scenery without having to steer, or just happen to live where there is NO other transport? They keep showing up with cash/plastic in hand. If someone chooses Atk over the dog for the overnight run from Spokane to Portland (the train was full on a Thursday night last May when I boarded around 2 AM) why are you upset? If the seats/rooms on the Sunset turn over twice/three times between LA-Jacksonville they are still being used. The real question is what do we all as taxpayers wish our monwy spent on. This is neither AirTalk, HoundTalk, nor AutoTalk. Perhaps Write your representatives/senators!
OK there is one other little game going on. Semantics. What is a long line?
Is it a straight trip with short stops or any combination of rides a long trip. Some of these long trip are a series short hops cobbled together some are not.
Seat turnover means squat. Look at all those stops. Those seats could trun over 3 times and the train still be empty. Streches are likely underserved and others over served.
>If someone chooses Atk over the dog for the overnight run from >Spokane to Portland (the train was full on a Thursday night last May >when I boarded around 2 AM) why are you upset
Don't put words in my mouth to prove your point. I have nothing against well used runs, Portland to Spokane is around the same distance as Boston to DC by train. It's that Idaho to half way thru ND section that kills things.
>This is neither AirTalk, HoundTalk, nor AutoTalk. Perhaps Write >your representatives/senators!
This is SUBTALK and so I naturally favor mass transit/regional rail over national service.
"Those seats could trun over 3 times and the train still be empty."
For about the tenth time, the long distance trains ARE NOT EMPTY. I have rode the Capitol Limited and the City of New Orleans their entire length, and the train was more or less full the entire trip. Yes, even through the rural areas like western Maryland or West Virginia on the Cap. Ltd. or Mississippi on the CONO. Plenty of people got on at places like Cumberland MD, Memphis, TN, and Jackson or Yazoo City (love that name!) MS.
"It's that Idaho to half way thru ND section that kills things."
Not true. Because there's no real air alternative, and in the winter the highways can be snowed over fairly often, the portion of the line between Spokane and Fargo is very busy. Some stations in Montana have more passengers in a year than there are residents in the county where the station is located.
>>Plenty of people got on at places like Cumberland MD, Memphis, TN, and Jackson or Yazoo City (love that name!) MS.
I ride the City of New Orleans from Jackson to Memphis at least once a year, now that you mention it. I use Amtrak to get around Mississippi when I can because I like to visit people in different parts of the state. I can't take my car with me when I fly down there, and I'd rather ride the train than burden my friends and family by making htem drive me all over the state. Mississippi needs more train service not less. A train connecting Meridian, Jackson, and Vicksburg is something Mississippi has been trying to get for a long time. As part of a line connecting Atlanta with Dallas it would make a lot of sense.
I've ridden the City of New Orleans all the way to Chicago a few times as well, and was pretty full on the trips I made.
(By the way, a great book about Yazoo City is Good Ole Boy by Willie Morris.)
Mark
"Some stations in Montana have more passengers in a year than there are residents in the county where the station is located."
Well, *that* is not hard to do!
You could put the whole population of Adams County (ND) on the No 7 train during rush hour, and the other commuters would not notice.
(Unless you included their cows) : )
Elias
>>> For about the tenth time, the long distance trains ARE NOT EMPTY <<<
This talk about how full the trains are really doesn't mean much when they are running one train a day. Railroading requires certain economies of scale. Running one full train a day costs much more per passenger mile than running 20 full trains a day. If GM were building 20 cars a week and selling every one or them at twice the current price, they would be in bankruptcy in no time. Many more cars need to be made and sold to be profitable. Railroading is similar. Many more paying passengers on many more trains are needed to turn an operating profit. What the critics of long distance trains are saying is concentrate on routes where you can have frequent enough service (with many passengers) that people will know they can go early morning, just before noon, early afternoon and evening. Perhaps frequent enough schedules between Chicago and Detroit, for example, could be run to make inroads into air traffic between those cities, but the scheduling should not depend on the timing of a train running from New York to San Francisco, and I doubt that the most rabid railfan believes 5-10 trains a day in each direction could be kept full all along a transcontinental route.
Tom
You can turn over each seat on a train 3 times from Boston to DC many times a day.
Also the fares are MUCH cheaper in the west than the east. Who would not want a subsidized line coming into their neck of the woods. Chicago to LA for $58 is the special next month. $58 for a 2 day trip?
The fact that more people may use the rail than there are people in the county just shows that people are driving hundereds of miles in the impassible snow.
I do not remember word insertion. As to my example at Spokane the coaches were flat out full leaving Spokane BUT many had detrained there also. The point is heavy usage along the ENTIRE route. I have taken the Builder from Chicago straight thru to Portland--it was NEVR empty. I have also FYI ridden, SW Chief, CZ, CONO, Capitol(since 1947), B'way (Tuscan, SS and ATK), Lake Shore, Cardinal, various others over Silver, Coast Starlight,etc.
I was not upset.
I can describe full plane trips on airlines that are no longer with us.
I live in North Dakota, and ride the train to and from here,
and it is well filled to sold out, so I do not know where you are finding these empty seats.
Elias
One of the biggest problems with Amtrak is its inefficient use of it's Chicago hub.
Trains should arrive before 10:00 AM at the latest, and depart between 4 and 6 PM at the latest. Many times I have missed connections in Chicago because they only scheduled a two hour layover between trains, while most Amtrak trains run 2 to four hours or more late. Besides it would be nice to have a layover in Chicago so as one could see the town.
Elias
"Trains should arrive before 10:00 AM at the latest, and depart between 4 and 6 PM at the latest."
I disagree.
1)There's an event right in the middle of that "before 10:00 AM" period called rush hour. Dozens of Metra trains arrive on both the North and South Concourses of Union Station in a two hour period. Ditto for evening rush hour with the "4 and 6 PM" thing.
2) Departures after 6pm but before 10pm are PERFECT for people leaving on Amtrak from work downtown. Every time I've rode Amtrak long distance, it was a train that leaves between 7 and 8 pm, and it was easy for me to go to Union Station from my office, having taken my luggage downtown on Metra in the morning. A train leaving before 6pm would have been a tight squeeze coming from work.
A train leaving that late (and I have ridden on them) do not arrive in New York early enough to be useful the next business day. Yes, other trains might wait until after the rush hour, but NYC and DC trains need to get out earlier.
People coming to Chicago from afar also want to arrive there in time to conduct some business there. Sure, 'tourist' trains from the far west could arrive later, but if business traffic is to be stimulated, then these people need timely arrivals too.
Elias
Personally I think Amtrak should be disbanded and let each State take care of the rails. Currently I live in North Carolina. North Carolina has a plethora of tracks just laying around rotting. There is talk of building a regional rail system in the triangle region, which consists of Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill primarily and surrounding counties. Included in this proposal is to define a corrider to support High Speed rail @ speeds up to 200 mph. IF each state is responsible for funding their rails, the National Rail network can get built faster and would be paid for by the local people. The only other alternative is to set aside funsing from the government, and they won't do that. They are busy sending money to other nations.
Frank D
But then you have to get states to agree on things, that doesn't occur too often. It was tried right after the revolution and the Articles of Confederation failed miserably.
If each state controled its rails, how would inter-state service be built? The Port Authority of NY and NJ is an example, it must get approval for anything from 2 state gov'ts. Many things get ties up forever...........
The major difference I see between the highway and airline subsidy and Amtrak is that the airlines, busses, and trucks are privately owned/operated while Amtrak is government owned in its entirety. I have no problem with government subsidizing rail service (in fact it SHOULD) to the same level it does for highways and airlines - just let private companies run the trains.
the reason ATK runs the trains is that the private companies cooked up the idea. The enabling legislation was written by lawyers on RR co pay, then they shopped for Congresspersons to introduce it. The private RR's wanted OUT of the operation. Now, the dirty 'secret' here is that the enabling law granted ATK the RIGHT to use the RR tracks at fes to be negotiated--no one else has a guarantee that the route can be used.
I didn't see any other postings on this so...
This morning I rode on a train set of R62A's out of Time Square. The car #'s from west to east were:
2150, 2146, 2149, 2153, 2154, 2148, 1701-1705
People seeing them for the first time, kept giving a "What the?" expression.
-- Kirk
a 10 car train ..
& no railfan window !! ......\
UGH !
6+5=11, 6 singles and a 5 car set...
11 cars with a non rail fan window equipped R62 ?
The Singles have Rail fan windows. At least most of them,I saw two while standing at 207st station heading uptown.
Robert
how many sets of r62a's are in service right now on the 7
From what I've been reading here, it's just one train.
Right on!
There was a railfan window. And R-62 railfan windows are BETTER than those of redbirds.
There was only a railfan window at the Manhattan end. Like on many (most? all?) R-62A's, a large sticker obstructed part of the view. The R-62(A) storm door handle is also a little bit lower than the handles on all the other (publicly accessible) storm doors; I find it slightly more awkward to hold on.
U CALL A TRANSVERSE CAB A RAILFAN-WINDOW ???
Window yes, railfans can walk up to it and see through it, yes. I call it a railfan window.
Yea, like your opinions count. You non-daily rider from California.
Peace,
ANDEE
I saw it! I went to Willets Pt this morning to see the R62A's in the yard from the ramp. As I was looking, I saw the R62A pass by on the (7). I was kicking myself, wishing I had only known that if I'd just gotten on the platform I could have ridden one. Oh well, soon I will.
:-) Andrew
Andrew,
Bring a towel to wipe up the foam.
we need pictures!!!!
What's the big deal? R62's are 15 years old. Wait a few months, and all you'll see is those damned tin cans.
The appeal is in that it's different and rare. Even if it's a sign of impending doom and future monotony, right now it's still cool.
It's the same for when the LIRR got new cars and engines. I was always so thrilled to see or ride on one of the new trains. Now if only one of those filthy disasters with a real engine would pull into the station!
You got two engines on every train! - I miss the sound of the GP38's pushing or pulling from the east!
The sounds from the older diesels from the 50's & 60's were much better.
Speaking of monotony, won't the IRT be one of the blandest and boring rapid transit systems in the world with only 2 car types which look so much alike?
Can't they keep just a few redbirds? (sigh)
Monotony is what the IRT has always been about. In the days before city unification all of the IRT cars had the same basic 1904 design. Only in 1939, did the IRT order something that looked really diffrent from everything else they had and those were the World's Fair cars, the only pre-unification IRT cars to have front rollsigns. Throughout most of the 60's, the 70's and the early 80's, nearly every A-division car looked like the Redbirds. There never were any slants on the IRT. No Budd cars on the IRT either.
At least with the BMT, every new car that was ordered looked very different from the previous order of cars. Under TA control, every B-division car order from the R32 on looked different from the last car order. The R10 was a major departure from the R9 over on the IND. But that has rarely been the case on the IRT. It was the R62 in 1984 that broke up the monotony of the IRT with its stainless steel exterior and its large colored rollsigns, something BMT/IND riders enjoyed since the late 60s. Seeing those R62's for the first time put a smile on my face. It broke up the monotony of grafitti-covered look-alike cars with illegible signs that ruled the IRT for so many years.
What about the R-12's? The IRT version of the R-10's looked alot different than the rest of the IRT cars.
And they sure stuck out like sore thumbs when intermixed with later cars in the same train. It's too bad the R-12/14s never ran in solid trains on the mainlines, except for those on the 3rd Ave. el. OK, I know why - so conductors wouldn't have to assume the position.
I felt the same way when the R-7/9s began appearing on the Canarsie line in early 1969. Even though they were 30+ years old at the time, I still thought of them as new cars on that line. Hey, anything was better then those ugly old BMT standards - so I thought at the time.
OMG! It just started running? I better look for it on the 7 Line tommorw!
You can't really blame them. They've been riding redbirds for the last decade or so; by seeing the R62A's, it overwhelmes them.
Yeah the sun shining on the silver will blind them! They need their sunglasses.
That need sunglasses inside the Redbirds when the sun came in from the swiss chees hole in them anyway.
Robert
lol...........
Actually, the R36's have been providing exclusive Flushing Line service for 38 years. They've been "redbirds" for 17 years, being some of the first cars to undergo a GOH in 1985.
I remember seeing Redbird R-36s in October of 1984. They really looked sharp.
The WF R-36s have set a record for exclusive service on one line which may never be broken. They surpassed the 29 years for the R-10s on the A a long time ago. How long have the R-44s been assigned exclusively to the A, not that I really care?
Before anyone speculates about the number 11 - the train was running express, displaying circle-7 signs.
I overheard one "Oh, new cars." Most people didn't seem to care :).
I guess no one told the T/O about the <7> sign
Is there a <7> on the rollsign? Sending it as an express with the circle will confuse people heading home from Manhattan.
As if they ever got the local/express signs right on the redbirds!
:-) Andrew
You're right, Mr. K. They never did get it right with the rollsigns. Hopefull, with the R62A's finally rolling on the 7 line, it will convince the MTA employees to maintain the signs correctly.
No, they never did that. Repeated announcements at Queensboro Plaza usually prevented confusion. But what sucked about that was that you never really knew if you were on an express or local while the train was in Manhattan!
The Flushing line should have the R142 and their digital signs which would make it much more convenient.
Yes, there is a <7> on the R62/62A rollsign
Why can't they have it like the 6? On the 6 they have a local sign and a <6> Express sign. The 11 would confuse the heck out of the people. I'm just about to head on out the door to go see if it's on the road. Maybe I'll see some of y'all out there-I'll be wearing a Brooklyn Cyclones Hat.
#1705 Flushing Express
Go, man! I was hoping you'd bring a camera or something. I'm dying to see pics of them R62A's in action on the Flushing line! A cool idea for a pic would be capturing a R62A on the 7 and an N or W on the Queens-bound platforms at the Queensboro Plaza station!
When I caught the train in the afternoon, the side signs were set to diamond-7 (with the word "Express," as on the 6). The end signs were both set to circles. I did notice that announcements weren't as loud as on the Redbirds, which is a problem if the signage isn't pretty much consistently accurate, particularly at Queensboro Plaza.
Most passengers didn't seem to notice. There were a few railfans out, including our very own Clayton and some guy who took a picture from the opposite (Flushing-bound) platform at 45th Road.
I had a conversation with a TA guy (I don't know his title, so I won't make one up, but he seems to know a lot about the 7) at the railfan window. Some items of interest that I learned:
The train started running at 7:06 this morning and is there to stay. There are another five cars in the yard; as soon as six singles come in, it'll go out as well. This appears to be the final plan. (The guy was glad the R-142's were staying away. In fact, he seemed to think that the R-142 order was a mistake, and that the Redbirds should have been fixed up instead.)
The rumor of the 11 taking the place of the diamond-7 is just a rumor. He hadn't even heard it until I mentioned it. It's not going to happen.
All the glass was changed before the car was pressed into service. The railfan window was already scratched up.
There were some minor problems with the train; he didn't elaborate, but I confirmed that they had nothing to do with guard lights. Modifications will take place overnight.
The C/R on the 7 is apparently always positioned between the 5th and 6th cars from the Manhattan end. The transverse cab was at the Manhattan end of the 7th car, not doing much good except to block passage through the train. The consensus of those of us at the railfan window was that the train should be turned around.
That's about it for my report. Although I have been and remain an incurable Redbird fan, the R-62A looks nice in purple.
Nice. You made history. You're my hero. At least 'till I find a new hero tomorrow. :)
"The rumor of the 11 taking the place of the diamond-7 is just a rumor. He hadn't even heard it until I mentioned it. It's not going to happen"
Ugh! Oh well, its nice to have some silver on the flushing line :-) -Nick
Well there is the possiblity that the purple 11 could still be used. Just don't expect to see it right now. And if the 7-diamond is on all R62A rollsigns, or at least on the ones coming from the 3 and 6 lines, then they're likely to retain the 7-diamond for the Flushing Express service. If it works on the Q and 6 lines, the TA won't see a reason to change the 7-diamond to 11.
The 7-diamond will remain the 7-diamond. Period. The 11 rumor was nothing more than a rumor, probably started here or on another board.
The rollsigns even include an "Express" marking. That's about as clear as possible.
Giving the express a different number makes no sense. Notice that, at any given time, the 7 and 11 in one direction will be 100% identical. The stations and maps will have to show both the 7 and the 11 stopping at all stations. Where's the gain?
I wasn't saying they should use 11. I don't think they should, either. I was just saying it's always possible, but yes, in this case, not likely.
I think they never will. The R-142s can't show double digit numbers. So when the R-62As go, they'd have to go right back to <7>. Pointless to change when they will definitely have to change back.
The only benefit of an 11 would be reverse-peak skip/stop.
The two different routes like 7/11 would only work if there were 4 tracks, like on Brighton. Then it makes sense to have two letters.
Advertising on 7-11's store franchise. LOL!
With two subway trains marked 7 and 11!:-)
I don't see what the big deal is, everybody who uses the #7
knows that a diamond is express. It's been like that forever.
If people are not aeare of it, they soon learn.
Give the #11 a rest already!
"I don't see what the big deal is, everybody who uses the #7
knows that a diamond is express."
This should be true, but unfortunately its not. I knwo a few people who have ridden the #7 line for years, and every once in awhile they still can't figure out why their local station is being passed by. -Nick
maybe its because they fried to many braincells in whatever else they do to notice something so simple.
In fact, he seemed to think that the R-142 order was a mistake, and that the Redbirds should have been fixed up instead.)
Did you educate him as to the impossibility of doing that?
Why is it impossible?
I don't think he was being entirely serious. But many of the R-33's that run/ran on the 2 are still in very good shape. I don't see why they couldn't be fixed up to last another few decades.
He also was somewhat critical of the move away from rollsigns.
I was led to believe that all the redbirds are suffering from rust, making it imossible to keep them running much longer. If not, then I must agree with your TO friend: Why the rush to replace them all now?
That's what you've been led to believe by riders of the 4, 5, 6, and 7. Most of their Redbirds are/were in pretty awful shape.
As a West Sider, I couldn't understand all the whining here about the condition of the Redbirds until I looked away from the 2. The 2's cars were overhauled last and, it appears, best. They're not in perfect shape but the gaping holes so often found on the other Redbirds are few and far between.
We had a good fleet here on the West Side: the Redbirds were still nice and shiny and the R-62A's were in good shape. Now the 1 is getting the beat-up R-62A's from the 6 and the express is getting the new trains that are limited to 40 mph (assuming the 2 returns to express service and the 3 gets R-142A's, as planned) -- this on an express run that regularly reaches 46-47. (At the very least, shouldn't the R-142A's fill up the local before penetrating the express?)
The West Side had a better fleet a year ago than it will a year from now.
How will the West Side IRT have a worse fleet in 2003 than it did in 2001?
I thought R142's couldn't run on the 1 due to the gap fillers at South Ferry. If all goes well with the 1 line reconstruction, we'll be seeing the 1 train back at South Ferry in November and it would need to have the R62A's. They shouldn't put option-order R142's on the 1 only to have to take them off several months later.
Also, didn't the five-car R62A set on the 7 come from Pelham Yard? So won't the other five-car sets becoming from Pelham? That would mean that the 1 would keep its current R62A's, wouldn't it? Obviously the 3 has to give up its single R62A cars in order for the 7 to still have 11-car trains. So the 3 needs R142A's to replace those single R62A's that will be leaving for the 7 line.
I don't know, but it makes more sense that they are coming from Pelham, since the 6 is where the new trains have been running.
What I thought would happen was that R62A's from the 1 and 3 lines would be sent to the 7 line and R62A's from the 6 line would go to the 1. In fact, I've saw quite a few former Pelham R62A's on the 1 back in August. They probably sent them there via South Ferry switching from the inner to the outer loop so they could go down the East Side and back up the West Side. However, that can not be done right now due to the damage to the 1 line tunnel that Osama bin Satan and his thugs caused when they destroyed the World Trade Center.
I guess they could also switch them over by using the White Plains line. And by the way you're comments about "Osama bin Satan" are right on the mark!
Well I'll use every chance I get to bash bin Laden for the hateful acts that he committed against the US.
But getting back to the subway, yes, I suppose they could transfer trains from the East to the West sides over the White Plains Road line, it would just take more time to do so.
How will the West Side IRT have a worse fleet in 2003 than it did in 2001?
Simple.
If all goes through as planned, the well-kept R-62A's on the 1 will be replaced with the grungy ones from the 6.
Both express lines will have their fast and generally reliable trains replaced with ones limited to 40 mph. The express currently does reach 46-47 just about all the time. And as I've posted before, I find that the R-142A has an awful passenger interface in comparison to the Redbirds, in just about all ways (seats, handrails, signs, announcements, lighting).
A few questions:
1. Why are the R142's limited to 40mph (how dumb)
2. The 1 R62's are all going to the 7?
3. When the express on the Lex get new treains are those also limited to 40 mph, and how fas are the Lex expresses now?
1. I don't know, but my information is from a poster here who is quite familiar with the innards of the beast.
2. That was the plan: the 1 and 3 send their cars to the 7. The 1 will receive R-62A's from the 6; the 3 will receive R-142's. The reasoning I've seen is so that 7 passengers get the better R-62A's. But why should the 7 passengers get the better cars at the expense of 1 passengers? Some reward this is for keeping our cars in good shape!
3. The speed limitation is on all R-142 and R-142A cars, IINM. I believe the plan is for the 6 to be all-R-142A, the 5 all-R-142, and the 4 a mixed fleet of mostly R-62 and a few R-142A. So the local will have all slow cars and the express will still have some fast ones. I don't know how fast the express is on the East Side; it's not my line.
I would think the 6 line's R142's should go directly to the 7, and not get the 1 involved. By the way I don't use the 1 that often, but use the 6 alot. What was the difference between the 1 and 6 's R142's. Why were they treated differently?
You mean R-62A's.
The ones on the 1 are just less beat-up than the ones on the 6. I like to think it's because we West Siders treat our trains better than you East Siders. It probably has more to do with maintenance in the yards.
You west siders aren't all cramming onto a single line. Ride the Lex when the trains come as scheduled during rush hour and you will see why our trains aren't as good.
Most of us are. The CPW line is poorly located, has poor transfers, and has only infrequent local service (the express bypasses the entire neighborhood). The East Side also has a decent degree of limited bus service, particularly on the M15, where traffic isn't generally awful (northbound, at least). The West Side has no limiteds between 72nd and 106th.
And the East Side local doesn't run at a pitiful 12 tph in the afternoon rush.
I've seen the East Side crowds at Grand Central. They aren't substantially worse than the West Side crowds. Have you ever seen the crowds on the West Side when the local track sits vacant for ten minutes and the first train to arrive skips the local stops? Everybody crowds onto that second train -- nobody is willing to wait for the next train since it may well be 12 minutes away.
Yikes, I hope nothing starts from this predicament!
Subways have, are, and will always be faster than buses. You probably lack limited buses since you have more subway lines. Also, the assumtion is all trains are on or close to schedule. I have waited 15 minutes for the 1/9 (pre 9/11) and we did go express but they sent a 5 local (yes a 5 made up of R62As!) and crowding wasn't too bad. You all on the West Side have far better options than on the East Side.
My dumb mistake, I did mean R62's
r142s are not going on the #7 face it.not happening.never.you might get one or two but thats it.the next order you will get something new
I meant R62's. Iwas thinking R62, but typed R142.
I have to disagree with you there. I think the R142s on the 2 line are a million times better than the Redbirds they are replacing. I rode the Redbirds my whole life. I remember what they were like 20 years. Smelly, hot in the summer, freezing in the winter, poorly-working PA systems, grafitti. Granted, the grafitti is (mostly) gone, but other than the Redbird paint scheme and the installation of A/C housing, they basically look as they did before GOH. That is to say they looked old! They still have the old waffle-iron celings, the straps, the old TA-style number plates, the Axiflow fan fixtures and the speakers under the seats. At least when the R32's through R42's were overhauled, they got completely new interiors. The Redbird interiors look basically the same as before GOH. Why couldn't the R26's through R36's have gotten new interiors too?
OK, maybe the transfer announcements line maps are wrong. But blame the TA for that. They passed some sort of rule that REQUIRES conductors to use the announcements. As for the lighting it's really not that bad. I'm sure there were people who complained about the subway stations being too bright when the TA first installed flourescent lights in the stations. There's nothing wrong with the handrails. As for the speed, again, blame the TA for that. They're the ones who decided to limit the R142's to 40 mph. It's already been posted here that they can go faster than 40.
If R62A's from the 1 are going to the 7, when is the five-car set (1701-5) that is currently on the 7 that came from Pelham Yard, coming back to the mainline to run on the 1? I'm sorry, but I don't see the West Side IRT getting a worse fleet, at least not on the express lines. I'm glad to finally have modern subway cars running on my home line. I'm happy to see that 2 and 5 lines are no longer being treated like the Eastern Division of the IRT.
Your underlying assumption is that new is better than old. I make no such assumption. Sometimes new is better than old. Sometimes old is better than new. In this case, I think old happens to be better than new.
I'm not going to address the cosmetic issue, since it's entirely subjective. There's nothing inherently superior about one look over another. Notice that I didn't raise cosmetics in my critique.
The transfer announcements are wrong because the automation system was poorly designed. It should take a few keystrokes to update a line and its transfer points, and the computer should determine on the fly if the train is an express or a local. The C/R shouldn't have to make manual announcements; the automated ones should be correct. The city's taxpayers paid a lot of money for a piece of fancy automation was designed all wrong.
Even when they're correct, they're loud, slow, and monotonous. Off-peak, the most common station announcement goes something like this: "This is a Br ... Stand cl ... bing bong." (Either that or the train sits in the station until the full announcement plays, delaying service.) The nice large color-coded bullets have been replaced with small red circles that are illegible at a distance; the side signs have also lost their color-coding and the destination is only displayed 1/4 of the time. The automation system simply can't handle unusual GO's, and when it's turned off, all the signs go blank. I have no problem with automation, but the R-142's implementation has all the bad points and none of the good.
The lighting is headache-inducing for anyone even slightly sensitive to light -- and good luck looking out the window to determine which station you're at, since the trains are brighter than the stations. And T/O's on other trains have to shield their eyes from approaching R-142's. Was the lighting insufficient on the older trains?
The handrails are bad for anyone who isn't tall. My fingers fall asleep if I have to hold on for more than a minute or two. The old straps come down much lower. The ideal train would have both, like on buses. And if I'm lucky enough to get a seat, I get a backache because my bones don't line up properly with the strange curvature of the R-142 seats, no matter how I try to position myself. Has anyone ever complained about the shape of the Redbird seats?
Running R-142's on the express will slow down service. Period. I don't care who I should blame. In 2001, the express hit 46-47; in 2003, it won't beat 40.
Many Pelham R-62A's are already running on the 1/3. I don't know about the Flushing end of the one R-62A 7 train in service. I'm assuming that the original plan is probably still in effect. You're assuming, based on a single counterexample, that the plan has changed. We'll see who's correct.
I am glad to see someone agrees with me about the downfalls with the R142/R142A. You got yourself a nice piece of macheniery other than the maximum speed issue and all the things real passengers look for are missing. No colored destionation signs, they don't even show the destination most of the time, and the automated announcements aren't all that much better than the human ones unless the train isn't diverted.
We're not alone. The TSS(?) I was chatting with on the 7 was glad the R-142's were staying away from his line.
The R-142's could have been a real improvement, but they were implemented all wrong. I like the extra windows between cars and I like the wider side doors (although the double storm doors are a safety hazard). That's it.
How are the double storm doors a safety hazard, let's say compared to the middle doors of an R62A or a redbird?
On all cars other than the R142 or R142A, to pass cars, you
1. Open the storm door with right hand
2. Shift to left hand as you enter area between cars
3. Use right hand to open second door, left hand is used for support
4. Right hand holds second door open as you pass into the next car
On the R142 and R142A, while I haven't tried it, I imagine most people need both hands to open the two doors and thus have no free hands to use to hold on as they change cars.
My usual technique:
1. Open storm door with left hand.
2. Reach over to grab bar with right hand.
3. Open storm door with left hand.
4. Hold door open with right foot while passing through.
While it's theoretically possible to open a pair of R-142 storm doors with one hand, my left elbow can't handle more than one or two in succession. The doors are also a bit harder to prop open by foot, what with the rubber thingy.
I've seen that bar, I can't say it looks very trustworthy. Honestly, I don't like changing cars and try to do it when the train is stopped in a station whenever possible.
>>>1. Open the storm door with right hand ...<<
WEEEELL, you can speak for yourself but, I ALWAYS open the storm door with my left hand.
Peace,
ANDEE
What's the point of the double doors anyway?
>>>What's the point of the double doors anyway? <<<
For, believe it or not, wheelchair clearance/AKA ADA compliance.
Peace,
ANDEE
The opening was made slightly wider to allow for wheelchair passage(!). A wider door wouldn't fit entirely on either side when slid open, so it was split down the middle instead. Notice that the R-143 has a single sliding door, somewhat wider than the one we've grown used to.
At least I think that's why. It's the only explanation I've seen that makes any degree of sense.
Oh yeah, just what I would want to do if I was in a wheelchair, go between cars to get to the next car! I'm sure that's what they did it for, but it just boggles my mind that they thought that was necessary.
I think it was mandated by ADA. I agree it's crazy, especially since it introduces a safety hazard for those of us who might actually pass between cars.
How odd! Doesn't the gap between the cars prevent this kind of passage? Even if I'm wrong, with the hazard posed, I think we'll all wind up in wheelchairs!
That's why it seems so silly. I'm sure lots of people in wheelchairs would love to change cars in that fashion........it's nuts. I would assume it would be hard enough to get over the gap from the platform to the car, without thinking about changing cars.
That's another thing I can't understand....that they are slowly doing away with colored route signs on the trains. First with the R44's-46's after rebuilding, and the front sign on the R32, R38's. It is so hard to see the sign when it first comes into the station. The old rollsigns were much easier to see.
One thing struck me as the R-62A trainset pulled in on the 7 yesterday: the huge end signs on those cars are just wonderful. When it comes to legibility of signage, the R-40 - R-68 generation is the clear winner (pre-GOH in the case of the R-44 and R-46).
The R-110's had large front rollsigns. (Last I saw it, the R-110B was wearing an orange A. Don't worry, it was in the yard where it wouldn't confuse anyone.) I wonder why they weren't included in the final product. Then again, from the pictures here (I've never been inside it in person), the R-110B looks really classy, while the R-143 interior is (IMO) blah (although the exterior is nice enough).
I was inside the R110B and it was quite classy. It's a while ago though, and it was only once.
I've always found the R142's a lot more claustrophobic than the redbirds and R62's, the lights are too bright, and the monochrome paint job reminds me of a dentists' office. And 'Watch The Closing Doors Please.''...I'm tired of it already. Why not do 2 or 3 recordings? Get Ed Koch, Fran Dreschler, Chris Rock or someone with an amusing voice...
That said I cry no tears for the loss of the redbirds. Not when I had to walk through 3 cars at the height of the 105 degree heat wave last August to find a car with AC.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Last summer on the hottest day I was working the No.2 Line and had 3 out of 4 trains the Operating car was hot. The cool car I had was on a R142. However the other operating car for the next C/R at Flatbush was a hot car. The TOD even showed it. Let me tell you I would take a hot Redbird over a hot R142 any day of the week. You really don't have many windows to open.
I guess the T/O can't walk through the train to find a more comfortable car.
Is the a/c in the passenger compartment simply piped into the cab as well?
One time I was on a 6 Redbird with very weak a/c on a cool summer day, I opened the windows. The C/R promptly walked up and closed them. I pointed out that it was cooler outside than inside; he told me to move to another car. Instead, I moved to the 4 across the platform at Grand Central. (If only the good C/R's were as memorable as the bad ones!)
That said I cry no tears for the loss of the redbirds. Not when I had to walk through 3 cars at the height of the 105 degree heat wave last August to find a car with AC.
Which line? Not the 2, that's for certain.
Could have been. I know I had to go through several hot Redbirds before finding a cool one on the 2 line on many occasions
R-142's go verry fast on the express track. It did 45 MPH most of the time I saw it running on the express track.
How do you know? The speedometer on the R-142 is not visible to mere mortals like us.
Even 45 is slower than the R-62A's and Redbirds go.
Perhaps the train you were riding had not yet been limited to 40 mph.
If all goes through as planned, the well-kept R-62A's on the 1 will be replaced with the grungy ones from the 6.
I never noticed any difference between R62's from the 6 line and the same cars running on the 1/9.
On a similar note, what's the difference between R62 & R62A?
The R-62 has exterior speakers, although they're not used.
The R-62 destination rollsigns generally have one line of text, but I don't think this holds in all cases.
The R-62 runs exclusively on the 4.
There are a few other minor differences, but the R-62 and R-62A are extremely similar. Certainly, the R-62/62A pair is more alike than the R-32/38, R-40/40M, R-44/46, R-68/68A, and R-142/142A pairs. (However, I have yet to learn how to tell apart the R-26/28/29. The two varieties each of R-33 and R-36 are easily distinguishable.)
Well R32-38 & R40-40M are easy to tell apart. But I have yet to be able to tell a R44 from a R46. And I never was able to tell the difference b/t a R27 & R30, but I guess that doesn't matter anymore anyway.
R-44 vs. R-46 is easy.
The former blue exterior stripe on the R-44 is gray and rusting. On the R-46 it's stainless steel, like the rest of the exterior.
The R-44 has glass panels on either side of the side doors. They were removed in GOH on the R-46.
The R-44 has a small cab with a narrow door that hinges in. The R-46 has a larger cab with a sliding door.
The doors tend to be faster on the R-46 than on the R-44.
The R-44 runs on the A and the Rockaway Park shuttle. The R-46 runs on the E (unofficially), F, G, R, and V.
There are some other differences, but those are the ones I notice.
Next question? (I can't help you with R-27 vs. R-30. I only rode them once, on the C. I was a bit surprised to find a Redbird on that line, but I wasn't a railfan yet, and I didn't know they'd be gone soon.)
It's funny, all those differences on the R44-46's I have noticed, but I didn't realize that it was because they were different classes, I just figured some were rebuilt and some were not. Thanks.
Only the R-30s were fixed up and painted Redbird red. Some received a tartar red paint job in the late 60s before the silver-and-blue scheme came into vogue. Except for the car numbers, the R-27s and R-30s were nearly identical.
I love that there was a "silver and blue" scheme. What did that last a week when each train was let out of the paint shop. After that week, they were covered in graffiti, and couldn't hardly tell what the car looked like.
R27 & R30's were almost identical. I'm suprised the R30 wasn't simply called the "R27A".
The R44 & 46 are easy to tell apart. The gray painted stripe and "distinctive" airbrake noises make R44's look different from R46's. There are small but noticable differences in their interiors as well.
Actually, there were R-30s and R-30As, IIRC.
True, but I don't understand why identical cars were given two seperate R numbers.
From an operating standpoint, there is.....
Really? What is it? (Assume the pre-9/11 arrangement, when the 1/9 had transverse cabs at both ends.)
From the passenger standpoint, the difference in overall condition is apparent to the regular rider, although those who don't track car movements probably attribute it to poor upkeep or just bad luck.
From the passenger standpoint, the difference in overall condition is apparent to the regular rider,
What exactly are they? I have seen no difference in either cleanliness, scratchmarks or other types of vandalism.
Then you must not ride the 1 regularly. The general condition of the Pelham cars is slightly worse.
No, but I'm very perceptive. I'll be evenmore perceptive in the future, cuz I don't see any difference.
Maybe because their 40+ years old.
So? The R-32 is about the same age and it's not being retired any time soon. Age alone doesn't answer the question.
All the glass was changed before the car was pressed into service. The railfan window was already scratched up.
A trick to make 7 riders think they have brand new trains. The average rider is not knowledgable about where they came from.
So the Redbirds are finally starting to flock away from the 7. I'll miss the redbirds but I won't miss the jerky ride and lousy A/C in the summer.
It's sure gonna feel weird riding new modern trains on the 7, but I can't wait!
...sniff...i miss the redboids already.....but then again...WOOHOO, WE GOT SHINYBOIDS!!!!
--jonathan c
All together now (to the tune of Good Night, Ladies):
Goodbye Redbirds,
Goodbye Redbirds,
Goodbye Redbirds,
We're going to sink you now.:-(
good bye railfan window ........
the transvrse cab club
is takin over !!
Age in this case is in the eye of the beholder -- or in the design, I suppose.
The R-62As coming over to the Flushing Line will not even be as "new" as the R-12/14/15 cars were when they meandered over from the Flushing Line in 1963-64 to the mainline when the current group of Redbirds arrived. The difference is that by the time the Flushing Line gave up its cars before the World's Fair, the interior and exterior designs had changed enough so that the R-12/14/15s looked "old" compaired with the R-17 through R-29 cars already on the main line.
But the shiny interiors/exteriors of the R-62A compaired with the `birds and the fact that to your average subway rider the exteriors don't look a heck of a lot different than the R-142 series means the newly arrived cars will be greeted with a far different perception when they pull into a station on the No. 7 train than a 13- to 15-year-old R-12, 14 or 15 did when it was hitched to a bunch of R-17s, R-21/22s or R-29s on the Seventh Ave. or Lex express in the mid-1960s (they did look "newer" than the Low Vs that were phased out, of course, but at least to an untrained 7-year-old's eyes at the time, there was no way those trains could be seen as "new" with their exterior drop-down windows or port-hole doors, and tiny route signs near the roof-line like on the R-10s).
Yesterday, most R-62A 7 passengers didn't seem to notice or care at all about the change in equipment. (Perhaps they were regular riders of other A Division lines and they're used to the Redbirds and R-62A comingling, unaware that the 7 was Redbird-only until yesterday.)
Neither can I!
Kroma,
Basically how were the cars inside ? Were scratched glass, fluorescent lamps replaced and the floor cleaned ? Or did the cars look like they rolled off the #1 & #6 lines ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Looks like it was just a midnight move. Nothing was replaced, the TSS on the radio to the tower referred to the train as "the test train"...I thought this was going to be permanent.
Dumb question: Why are the R142's not being used on the Flushing line, a line which is perfect for CBTC operation?
The car barn at Corona can't handle them. Putting R62A's on the 7 buys the TA some time to redo the barn.
how long will the redo-ing take?
--jonathan c
They'll be done right when it's time for the 62's to get tossed, I'd wager.
I was asking myself that also. It's the only other real line (aside from shuttles) that don't intermingle with other routes.
On a similar note, It's funny I guess that the L is the only TOTAL orphan, it never even has an across the platform meeting of another line. Even the 7 does that once.
It did at one time, at Atlantic Ave.
And technically it could have a route from Broadway to Canarsie, it's just not in current practice.
I was thinking of the old Fulton St. el.
I know you meant the Fulton, I just added Broadway as a possible current routing.
Ok, I know the transfer finishes at Queensboro from the N line. But if those R-62 cars came from Westchester, how do they make the transfer all the way to the 7 line?
2 ways. 1) The Train goes through Westerchester to 125 St, then relays onto the 4 line, goes to the Concourse Yard, the train goes down the D line then goes through the F line to Coney Island where it then goes up the N line.
2) It goes through the 207 Street Yard
I take it that option 1 is how Pelham R62A's get to Corona and option 2 is how the single R62A's get to Corona. I was surprised that Pelham cars went to Corona. I thought cars from the 1 and 3 lines were going to the 7.
I think the #1 is to stay all R62. But do enough R62 cars exist on the 3 & 6 lines to adequatley eqip the whole Flushing line? And I thought the R62A's on the 6 would go towards replacing the redbirds currently running on the #4.
i hope the # 4s redbirds R still dere' when i come there dis summah'
( excuse the american here ) .....lol !
Things that I've never before on today's today's #7 Train.
Stand clear of a closing doors please!...Ding Dong.
oop!.. forget the word "heard" as I've never "heard"
yea ! the RAILFAN WINDOW VIEW BLOWS ME AWAY !!
They probably moved the cars to the IRT Corona-Flushing in this fasion. The cars were first brought to the 207th St. yard were they were then transferred to the IND line. Then they were run in the IND subway to Coney Island with a protion of the run on the Culver Line. Then they ran the train up on one of the foemer BMT lines to 39th Ave. and then had the train go over the diamond crosser at Queensboro Plaza. Then they ran the train towards Times Square and then back towards Flushing and into the Corona Yard.
I've always wondered. How do they do this without disrupting service?
I'm going to guess they do it very late at night.
:-) Andrew
Well Late PM hours!! I worked the 7 one evening, (packed of course) as we pulled into QBP, there was a Slant40 N train waiting on the incline. Im thinking I gotta beat it or else Im screwed. I got a sigh of relief when I saw there was another Flushing Redbird ahead of the Slant40 in the station. Obviously, this train was coming from CI yard and waiting for me and my train to leave.
If they can, they try to perform the moves during off peak hours.
#3 West End Jeff
That's too bad. The old days are slipping away. The so-called "redbirds" along with the R32-38s are the last remnants of the "old" subway for me. I had a thread named "The Old Days of the NYC Subway" that went into a lot of detail about that subject.
I will point out that the so-called "redbirds" really fit into the category of the old days prior to their status as "redbirds". However some of those trains still had their interior lights blink on/off like the trains in the "old" days. The soundproofing is also no that sophisticated.
Definitely see the sun setting now for the R-36s on the 7. Them people better get used to the sight, because the line soon enough will no longer be seeing "Red".
In the movie, US Marshals, 1998 with Tommy Lee Jones, in Queens, the one being chased, Mark Sheridan is his name in the movie, makes a dazzling escape onto the roof a subway train after jumping from the top of a place called the Loreli building. The train on a close up looks nothing like a subway train at all. It is labelled 6354 and has a NYCT label. Meanwhile, I have never heard of this train in my life. I figure this train does exist, I don't think they'd build a train just for the sake of the movie. Can anyone help?
In the movie, US Marshals, 1998 with Tommy Lee Jones, in Queens, the one being chased, Mark Sheridan is his name in the movie, makes a dazzling escape onto the roof a subway train after jumping from the top of a place called the Loreli building. The train on a close up looks nothing like a subway train at all. It is labelled 6354 and has a NYCT label. Meanwhile, I have never heard of this train in my life. I figure this train does exist, I don't think they'd build a train just for the sake of the movie. Can anyone help?
I know that a Metro North train on the elevated line near 125th Street was used as a "stand-in" for a subway train in a movie scene filmed a few years back. POssibly that could be the one.
That was NO subway train. It was Metro-North, filmed at 125th Street.
Did you also notice the train that ran through the cemetery?? That was nowhere near Queens! Try Chicago's Metra!!! (Orange and brown striped gallery cars.)
Thanks!
Now that you've seen the responses, you should report this to Nitpickers.com. Make sure to do the free registration first, so you can get credit for the submission. By the way, I'm one of the more-experienced Nitpickers who gets to vote on new submissions. I'll definitely vote for posting this one if I see it.
that was a Metro North train. when the train enters 125th street, u can see it say MTA and it says 202. I have a model of the same train. it had a Genesis on the front, and the car Wesley snipes was riding was a shoreliner
Is anyone going to the Second Avenue Subway Project Public Advisory Committee?
When is it? I have time to kill.
Monday March 4, 2002
6:00pm - 8:00pm
347 Madison Avenue
Fifth Floor Board Room
I'm going to try and attend - depends on whether I can hand off my daughter to my wife.
Sorry, I should have included the link:
href="http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/index.html"
The next meeting of the Second Avenue Subway Project Public Advisory Committee is scheduled for:
Monday, March 4, 2002
6:00 to 8:00 PM
MTA Headquarters
Fifth Floor Board Room
347 Madison Avenue
(Between 44th and 45th Streets)
Please check back here soon for our newly expanded site.
For anyone who is going, break a leg! I hope this meeting breaks ground on the Second Ave. Subway! I'm sure anyone here would agree!
What is discussed in these meetings? Do they present a concept plan and hear citizen input? I've been on the government side of these meetings before (I had one yesterday, in fact) and that's what we do. If anyone goes, make sure you ask when they plan on starting the design, when they anticipate starting construction, and where the funding will come from. If these people are serious about the subway, they will have an answer.
Someone recently posted what the express stops were in the past when the 1 or whatever the line was called ran exp north of 96th St to 242 St. Can someone give me that post number or if you know what the stops were just rename them? I can't believe I didn't save them. Sorry for any inconvenience.
The Trains by passed all local stops from 96th to 157th, then local North of it(It may be 145 I forgot where it switched from 3 tracks to 2.
No: someone distinctly said from 242 some express train ran non-stop to Dyckman and then made 4 or 5 more stops to 96th. Someone: when was this, what was the line labelled, and where did it go?
I was one of them, it was known as the "Broadway Thru Exp" and ran in numerous forms back in the early 1960's (with a short-lived revival in the late 60's for a short time) ... stops southbound were:
242 - Dyckman - 181, 168, 145, 137, 96 and then local from there, same in reverse northbound ... I've been told that there were some variations and added stations in various reincarnations ...
Correction - it also existed BEFORE 1960 and ran pretty much the same way for a long time prior in the 1950's and probably before then as well ...
Thanks anyway
I beg to differ, but I have no recollection of any express service on the #1 line or its predecessors north of 96th to 242nd - and I have lived on the Upper West Side or been a frequent visitor to the neighborhood since 1947. Until the #1/#9 skip stop began, any train that terminated/began at 242nd, Dyckman, or 137th made all stops to/from 96th Street - and that includes #3 diversions during the 1997-98 Lenox Ave. rebuilding. The center track has never been used for regular revenue service - only for layups and occasional diversions when track work was being done.
The R17 thru R29 cars did have a roll signs that said "Broadway Exp" and "Broadway Thru Exp". The former was the old New Lots to 242 route that ran express between 96th and Chambers, and local north of 96th (same routing as today's #1, ironically). The latter sign was never used for any regular revenue route.
For a brief period up until the early 1970's, SOME southbound #1 trains skipped 215, 207, 157 and 145 Street but ONLY during the AM rush hours. They did not use the center track, the trains skipping the stations just blew the horn. Tony
I'm told by an operator who worked the line in the 1950's that it did indeed use the center track. After that time, too many layups parked - by the time they emptied it out, rush hour was nearly over. But I've had it confirmed to me by several that worked the line in the LoV days that they did indeed use the center track.
And yes, it was AM rush *only* ...
Thru-exp service on the Broadway Line operated for a short time in the early years of the subway and again in the 1950's. The first time was regular Broadway Expresses using the center track between 137 St and 96 St. In the 1950's it was called the Broadway Thru-Exp. After the West Side Changeover in 1959 all Broadway trains ran local to South Ferry. However Broadway Thru-Exp service continued with trains running express on the local track. At first these trains skipped 191,181,157 and 145. About 1962 or so this was changed to 215,207,157 and 145. I rode this service several times and trains were signed up as "Broadway Thru-Exp even though they made all local stops south of 137 Street.
Larry,RedbirdR33
From NY1
How much capacity can be added with CBTC?
Right now capacity on most tracks is 30 tph. If all trains that use a particular track are on CBTC what will the tph be then?
Imagine if the T/O knew exactly where the next train was, not just approximately based on signals and signal blocks. It's got to mean a substantial ability to run trains closer together. I've heard 40 tph.
If I've done my math right, they will ultimately receive 29 new trains. Considering a run time of about 40 minutes, this comes out to perhaps the theoretical 30 tph.
If they can up it to 40 tph, that's 90 second headways. These kinds of headways, no matter how miraculous the computerized system running them may be, would seem unsustainable when you factor in the human problems (door holding, etc).
The L isn't going to need 30 tph for many decades to come. They're now at 12 tph. Also, the rush hour frequency doesn't extend for the time of a full round trip, so you don't need to fill the whole line with as many trains as possible to do a high capacity test.
Also, if trains are more frequent, door holding is less of a problem. If you can keep dwell times down to 40 seconds, 90 second headways are realistic provided the T/O can really keep relatively close to the next train. That's not feasible now because he doesn't really know how far away the next train is, so the red signals keep him an extremely healthy distance back.
It'll take some very reliable software to make this all work, but it's not theoretically impossible.
I have not been broken in on the 143's yet but my understanding is that if someone holds a door only that door has to be reopened.
At Parsons the problem is 3-4 car hoppers, each one holding while they move up the train. That can kill a minute and the next train is already in the station. Better doors will kill that.
OTOH some of you think the door holding thing is a rational decision based on the expectation of the next train. There is a core group of people will hold doors even if the next train is keying in to the station.
If it like the R142s, then you can use the Local Recycle button. All doors will remain closed except for the one with the obstruction. It will close when the obstruction is removed. Unless there is bulletin or something out there that IDK about........
I love the Local recycle feature. That one door will hit them until they let go.
Just wait until you spot the "extend blades" button - it's on the offside in the cab, third over, second row on the door control panel. Wonder how often it'll get used. :)
JUST KIDDING! :)
So thats what the big red warning button is?
Nah, that's the PUREE button. :)
DO NOT LEAN ON DOORS stickers by the thousands. CI Peter
When you have no place to hang from, leaning on the door is a nice place to rest your tired body. It does get bothersome, tho', when you have to move yourself when the door opens. It's not my fault: it's the subway's, and their unwillingness to give me something other than sardine-can-cars during rush hour. Tell me where to go when the aisle is packed? Wait for the next packed train? Forgetaboutit.
I didn't door hold as I car-hopped, tho'.
BUT CTA did it in the 50's on the Howard-Jackson/Englewood route.
Did you see the last line, the 2,3 and 5 lines will be next to get the new trains? I can'w wait for a R-143 to hit the A division, should be fun!
Okay, I'd like to see 'em do that too...lol.
Light Rail Chic :-)
Yeah - crunch! Scrunch! Sreech!
I think you mean R-142A. The R-143's are built to Division B standards (BMT/IND) and can't run on Division A standards (IRT).
The media got it wrong. He was saying it as a joke I think.
I don't think so.
Newsday has a reputation for not getting things right when it comes to the NYC Subway. This has been happening ever since Jim Dwyer left.
I ment my comment as a joke. The paper did get it wrong, it was an article about the R-143, and the last line of so said it was next coming to the 2,3 or 5 lines. I took that to mean the paper was saying (and it did) that R-143's would run on the IRT, which would make for some real railfan enjoyment. I few crushed cars at the first station if it got that far...................
Acutually when they hit the original 1904 tunnels there will be firefighters there.
True but the MTA will have to giveout billions of dollars for repairs of tunnels. In Conneticut the CT Transit buses in Stamford are operated and mantained by a private firm (in your life working their you will never see a Connecticut DOT employe (which owns the service)) which means lots of taxpayer money is going for running/operation/management firms that don't do ****. If the MTA stopped giving out money to conntracters to do work they would save lots of money (contracters cut themselves a big share, and create cost overruns and other money leaching sceams). At this rate the MTA will only excists on paper. On the platform light rehab job on 42 st. they are using private contracters insteasd of station maintaners. They don't even overhaul cars anymore.
Train rally. Trains striping off the tunnel walls and lotsa fhar and sparks. The passengers will definetly be crumpled in.
Piece of cake ... simply mount chainsaws on the ends of the anticlimbers, lead and tail, and voila! Instant shave ... with foam! :)
The #2 can't be the next in line to get the new cars; it already has them (now it's just a question of whether they can run right, right Bombardier?)
The #5 should be getting its share of new cars considering that the #2 has R-142s going all the way up to the high 6700s now; it would have happened sooner had not 150-200 cars (high 6300s and high 6400s) had to be sent back upstate b/c they had so many problems.
I was riding 8984 a redbird on the number 5 to go to skool near borough hall. when the train entered bowling green i saw a R142 in bowling green. it was a <5> coming from flatbush. the numbers were lead car 6737 and tailcar was 6721.
Wow, that's just as suprising as the R62A on the 7.
The lead car had to be 6736 or 40 because 6737 doesn't have an operating cab because its a B Car.
I may have been a Rerouted No.2 Train programed as a No.5 so the C/R doesn't have to make announcements.
However R142's are suppose to start service on the No.5 Line next week. So there is a 50/50 chance you may even be right. I have to see it to believe it.
Mebbe 29 days to an SM?? I wonder who'll get the first crack: 239th or 180th. CI Peter
I don't know but they will have to assign a R142 Gap crew at Dyre.
So I'm now assigned to the 180th Street crew...#5. I've been doing Redbird Carbody...a task I can clear usually in five hours. I was rolling till 10 AM...everything was looking OK...until I discovered a few major problems. Undercar takes care of brakes and wheels, propulsion IS and requires knowledge of the entire operating system BUT Carbodys' responsibility is to insure T/O indication. Any loss in the door system stops a trainset.
After receiving the Train Dudes current roster, I asked my new Dep Supt IF and HOW we will be doing the SM on R142s. The answer I received was that there is an unexplainable delay in communications BUT when the trainsets are due for service (and very soon,) 180th will be taking care of their own. I cringe at the thought of multiple brake shoe replacements...239th has the shoes stacked up at every inspection...but I have the confidence not just to do but to teach and lead. T/Os have been 'experimenting' in the yards. The Redbirds have to go...to meet the fishies. CI Peter
So Your now at E 180 Street. Well maybe I'll see you around.
I'm starting to really like those R33's. Its to bad they will be meeting the fishes very shortly.
Wanna start a save-the-R33 campaign?
Sounds good to me!
Excellent! Please, no R-26, R-28, or R-36 imposters, and R-33's on the 4 and 7 need not apply.
Incidentally, does the 5 borrow any cars from the 4? A few days ago, I saw a Redbird train on the 5 with orange stripes.
I agree only the R 33 on the No.2+5 Lines.
About the No.5 useing No.4 Line redbirds they only use them on that Weekend GO where the No.5 service starts out at 149 GC No.4 Line Plat to Bowling Green.
NO, absolutely NOT!!!! The level of work now in keeping these suckers running is phenomenal and parts are coming from salvage. Good learning experience for a lot of us but not related to R142s. CI Peter
No, I'm still at 239th but two tracks over. Mainline 180th crew was bumped for 'new car acceptance.' I've done work for 180th many times over but being a part of the crew means hard and thorough work...the R33s have seen a loss of maintainance on crew swaps and items like T/O indication voltage drops makes TTs unavoidable. CI Peter
6737 cannot be a lead car
Not only 6736 or 6740 are possiblities, but it can be also 6735 or 6731. 6737 is not a possible lead car number because it is a B unit.
Nick
Can anyone help with mileages on the New York Subway. I am looking for the total distances between the ends of each line and also distances between stations. I would be very grateful for any information.
Nigel Curtis
WOW! I just got the 7 fellaz, and here are the pics! (There was a TSS, the motorman and prolly the third person was a CI, cuz he had a belt of tools off on the seat. David J. Greenberger was at Queensboro Plaza, and we talked for a bit at TS.
For those who want the full action, check out my movie! (7.3MB)
Here it is, do save target as to avoid playing in your browser window
Comments appreciated, enjoy!
The pics don't seem to be working.
They didn't work on my Netscape browser, so I used my MSN browser and they work fine.
:-) Andrew
If there are X's, reload in a few minutes, that means that there are too many people on my web server (IIS on XP Pro license limits connections to 10)
Is there supposed to be a water ambience? That's what I'm getting.
Try downloading (warez) Windows Advanced Server. Or for $800 I could get you advanced server legit. Or Server for $250.
I have Server already, but I like to use my computer thank you very much. I'm keepin XP Pro, if I ever get a scrappy junk computer I'll soup it up and run Server on it.
Thanks a lot, Clayton! They look...beautiful! Ok, I may be overeacting, but I'm so glad I've seen it!
Very cool! Like a dream come true.
:-) Andrew
Man it sure does look nice. I may have to spend a day on the 7 hunting down these silverbirds.
Hopefully by the summer the redbirds will bite the bust on the 7 and we'll have decent A/C.
I'm sure gonna enjoy the quieter, more comfortable ride.
It looks like there is a railfan window in the first picture, so we won't have to give that up.
Also love the 7 diamond side signs that actually say express. It will sure be nice not having to hear or ask "express or local?"
Railfan window only on the TS end.
Well that's too bad since I like the TS-Flushing express run better. Oh well there's a price with anything!
I'll bet it's at the Flushing end tomorrow. The C/R's transverse cab was in the wrong place today.
Ultimately, transverse cabs will probably be installed at the other operating end.
The TA will at most transversify the cars ending in a 0,1,5,6. They have to keep the middle cars of the train with no transverse cab, to avoid having an isolated car. Yards being what they are, they probably will not always put tranverse cabs on the ends of the trains. So it will be like it is on the 3/1 now, sometimes yes, sometimes no.
I don't think it would be too hard. Look at the R-33 singles, which always (always!) end up third from the Flushing end. If the yard can handle that, the yard can handle making sure that the transverse cabs only end up at the T/O and C/R positions.
When I was chatting with a bunch of TA guys up front, one of them suggested putting a transverse cab at each end of the middle car. I pointed out the isolation problem and the idea was quickly dropped.
KISS THE RAILFAN WINDOW ON THE # 7 GOODBYE !!
Countless grimy hands and noses have touched that window and you want me to put my mouth on it?
no way
I carry Windex. Also Metro-North (ConnDOT owned, heavy tint) car's railfan window is much more dirty.
I can't believe it!
I have been waiting forever for the 7 to get some new cars
Looks like I Might have to get a new tatoo, Silver R62 on my other
calf since I have a Red #7 now.
WANNA BET ?? RAILFAN WINDOW IS GONE !
if the cars are gonna wind up like they are on the 1/3 then they arent totally so stfu idiot
NO IT'S NOT!!! You can see out the front of the train through the transverse cab's door. Granted that window is tiny and if you're short, then maybe not. But there are six single cars in the R62A train running on the 7. ALL OF THEM have railfan windows! You've been whining for the last three years about how bad everything on the NYC subway other than a Redbird is for what you think is the lack of railfan windows. Geez, Salaam, good thing you don't live in London, Montreal or Bangkok where they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to see out of in the front. You'd go crazy if you did!
You want no railfan window? I got your "no railfan window" right here!
There's your "no railfan window"! What do you think of these subway cars? At least the R142's, R62's and R68's have a window to see out of! These cars ... have NOTHING!!! NOTHING!!!
On my outbound 7 trip yesterday, a large man just beat me to the little window and positioned his head directly in front of it. Part of the time he was looking out the window and part of the time he was facing the side talking on his cell phone, but I couldn't see a thing.
Then I got on a 1 train where the little window was obstructed by the T/O's coat.
The view through the transverse cabs on the other car types is absolutely worthless, especially while underground.
If the idea of the polarized glass is to shield the T/O from light from behind, wouldn't a front-to-back curtain do the job even better? (The C/R doesn't need to be shielded from light; he'd just leave the curtain open.)
Those seats facing each other, in the first photo, wouldn't work too well in NY either.
oh......jeez......(as i get a tight grip on my chest).....wow.....wow-wee-wow-wow!!!!!
so far there is only one set running right? and by when should we see more sets come in?
More sets are on the way. Get your cameras ready. This will be 1 very interesting Spring/Summer.........
I can't believe it's finally happening......
Actually I can ... when I did the trip to the city, I commented here and in a few other places about the AWFUL condition of da boids, and was contacted by some MTA folks and some legislative and city government folks, told them what to look for and they did and apparently a review of what was rolling lead some in charge to determine that I and some others who concurred weren't exaggerating.
It's pretty obvious given the lightning speed with which this is being done that what was rolling on the 7 was in even worse shape than what was rolling on the 4 and 5 lines ... when it rains INSIDE the train, that's never a good sign. :)
when it rains INSIDE the train, that's never a good sign.
You get quite a few bad signs on the Corona redbirds: every time it rains. Admittedly this hasn't been much of late, but when it rains it pours.
Dan
I've heard ... I think when they reviewed the possible donors for the 7, they looked at the herd and decided they had mad train disease. The sudden switch from bring back the remaining "usable" birds turned into a turdhunt and they ended up having to cut bait and get off the pot. It seems as though they wanted to wait to move the 62 fleet over there and realized they had no choice. The "birds" were in REALLY bad shape and for those who know what needs to be physically attached to what, a quick examination probably concurred with my own observations.
I don't understand why the 7 is getting hand-me-downs I don't know if it competes with the Lex in business, but the 7 is a Very busy line. How did they decide to start on the 6?
The 6 has R-142s now. If they're R-142As, I stand corrected in advance.
You stand corrected. The 142's (Bombardier) are running on the 2, and from what I've heard, they sometimes run on the 5.
The 142A's (Kawasaki) run on the 6, and their cousins, the 143's run on the L.
The Flushing line has ALWAYS gotten the "new cars" first over its history, but usually this happened in concert with a "World's Fair" ... no world's fair this time so apparently the good people of Queens have fallen down on the job. :)
I guess it was time to introduce new cars on other lines.
I guess kind of like the Eastern Division finally getting brand new cars as opposed to hand-me-downs.
The R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s were initially assigned to the Flushing line because their doors would not align with the existing gap fillers at Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge, and South Ferry. By the time the R-17s began arriving, that situation had been rectified.
Good point of course, but the WF LoV's were also purchased in anticipation of the Fair in 1939. And you'd have to wonder why the 12's 14's and 15's had been ordered without someone breaking out a tape measure first. :)
I think the BOT realized that vestibules did not contribute to efficient passenger egress and degress. Of course, the WF Lo-Vs didn't have vestibules, either.
Well ... way way back, there weren't center doors either. They had to cut holes on the original steel IRT fleet to provide them. No center doors and no vestibules and STILL they managed to have less dwell time than today. Hmmm.
It's just that the idea of sending R62A's over to the 7 is a thread that has been popping up on this board for the last three years and now it's finally happening. That's what I can't believe. I checked through the archives and noticed that there have are threads about R62A's going to the 7 that go back as far as March 1999. But now it's really happening. I couldn't be happier.
Finally, after three years of rumors on Subtalk, we finally have R62A's running on the 7. Can't wait to ride them there. Good to see them there. And from looking at the pictures, it looks they do have a diamond-7 on the rollsigns. I guess that means they'll continue to use it and we won't be seeing any 11 trains.
I rode out to Shea this afternoon around 3pm. I had 9442. Despite it being a pretty fast car, it was very bumpy and rattly. I walked on the boardwalk to see that the only cars that I saw were redbirds. Then I met Tom MR36 Maley and waited for the next 7 to Main St. It was a local-got on car 9316. Right as we pulled out, here came in 1705 with a 7 local sign on the Express track. Got to Flushing and switched ends-rode 2150 down to 45 Rd and Courthouse Sq where I got a pic of 1705 leaving the station. I returned to QBP where I thought I could get the best shot of them all. Wound up that when I thought the camera was on and ready to go, it was off. I did not get a pic at QBP. ;( I was upset but I wasn't going to go off the 7 without getting a pic of this train. I got back on 2150 and got off at Shea once again. Got 1 shot leaving the station and waited to get it going back towards Times Square. I nailed about 2 more shots of 2150 and 1 of 1705 leaving Shea. However, I do not have the pics done at this time, but once I get them, I will scan them and give them to Dave Pirmann to place up on this site.
I loved the R62A Ride. It wasn't as bumpy and rattly as the redbirds are. I can't wait to see more here. A great success for the R62A!
Redbirds have served us well on the 7 line-for approximately 38 years. It is now time to make way for the futute of the 7: The R62A.
#2150 Flushing Express
Amen to that, brother!
[I loved the R62A Ride. It wasn't as bumpy and rattly as the redbirds are.]
You should ride it on the express between 61st and Junction. Faster than 38 MPH (Fastest I seen it go there was 44), it feels more like stainless steel Redbirds. Below that, I thought the speedometer might have been broken or something.
I am actually in that 3rd photo-if you look at far right side-I'm wearing my Brooklyn Cyclones Hat. I think this was at Woodside Station around 330-400. I got off as I said on the last post- at 45 Rd. Yadda Yadda Yadda-You know the rest.
#2150 Flushing Local
why did they refuse to send over the r 62s that have a railfan window
???
You and that railfan window. You may as well give up on the system.
-Stef
yea we want to have fun !! but you r-142 transverse cab club members dont !!
Did ya see the pictures from "The Joe" of the guy with the ultimate railfan seat? Just bring extra money for bail and you'll get some GREAT shots! The offer still holds to bungee you to the front too. :)
Howdy, guy!
oh ? i can bribe a TO? i wear a vest as well !!
Nah, since you're not an employee, an OSHA approved parka will do. :)
Makes you want to respond in unison: "We know, Eddie".
They didn't! They sent six single R62A's to Flushing. The single R62A's DO have regular railfan windows. If I'm not mistaken, all R62A trains on the 7 will have a five-car set with the transverse cabs and six single cars WITH a railfan window.
So you'll have a railfan window in at least one direction. Is it Main St bound or Times square bound?
Times Square, or so I've read. I have to go and look for the R62A's on the 7 at some point.
Well, at any rate that is the better direction for the railfan window. That is a thrilling ride, the inbound (7), from a railfan window, wathcing the Manhattan skyline drawing ever closer.
:-) Andrew
It was Manhattan-bound yesterday, but the consensus was that the train should be turned around since the transverse cab in the middle was in the wrong place for the C/R.
Wrong place for the conductor? Oh, that's gotta result in a LOT of "finger-pointing" ... (sorry, couldn't help myself - any conductor will get the joke) ...
The people in the 3rd picture looked thrilled for you to be taking their picture. lol.
Great pix! It gave me deja-vous to 1985 when the Flushing Line ran a set of R62s as a test- there's a picture of it in Rolling Stock. I stupidly turned down a chance to ride it, figuring they'd become permanent equipment on the line- 17 years later! Of course, your pictures are genuine 2002, witness the flags.
Looks like most people in the third picture don't even notice. The TA employee and several civilians are reading newspapers, and a few people look asleep.
Can't wait to see the daily fights sure to break out when one person takes up two bucket seats!
It's a pity, really. They should all realize what they gain from the R62A's. All the time enviromental comfort (A/C to heating) cars that don't leak! lol!
Great shots of the R-62As on the #7 IRT Corona-Flushing Line.
#3 West End Jeff
erm....im still getting no pic or whatever you're displaying
jon
I'm trying to show a trackmap I made.
Try using "preview message before posting"
I'll remember that
You need to post your picture on the internet somewhere.
You cannot use Geocitis or many other free sites to access a .jpg or .gif file, because thwy will deny access. I you use them to host a picture, you will have to put on an html page, and reference that here.
You got some nice subway maps eh? I'd love to see them.
Elias
You're not getting it totally correct. It's (without the asterisk):
<*img src="http://your.domain.name/directory/filename.ext">
For example, if I wanted to get my picture I'd use:
<*img src="http://www.geocities.com/h_szablicki/transfers/3730.jpg">
It wouldn't work in my case, since Geocities doesn't allow remote image loading, but you get the idea.
Of course, you need to have some web space to put it in. You can't link to something on your hard drive and expect us to be able to see it.
Why don't you first try the Preview button before the Post button?
Does anyone Model the Acela Express?
Bachmann does. Amtrak put an ad for it on the back of their NE Corridor timetable. I saw one at Costco. It looks really nice.
I know Bachmann does, I was asking does anyone model it as a hobby
They sell it at the Transit Shoppe in Newark, Penn Station.
Bachmann makes them in HO scale, I think as a four or five car set -- but the set package is printed with a notation to the effect that additional cars may be purchased to make complete train sets.
They just announced that they will be making them in N scale in late 2002 as well.
bachmann.i have it it comes withe a powered loco and dummy,first class,cafecar ,and a business car.that is ho scale.bachmann aslo making it in n scale
I have the Acela Express to, I have the whole 8 Car Unit Set, And Also I know David Harrison, hes helping me expand on my set.
Yup.
Some strange distillation of the Shore Line runs through my apartment.
db
David Harrison of Chicago had an Acela Express running at the model train convention in Pennsauken (NJ, near Philly) a couple years ago. He had it powered by the rails, then changed it to catenary-powered as I watched.
Another highlight of that show was that Anon e Mouse collected my ticket at the entrance.
Ah yes, the East Penn Traction Club show last spring, held every other year in Pennsauken. Look for it again in late April/early May 2003.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
David Harrison of Chicago had an Acela Express running at the model train convention in Pennsauken (NJ, near Philly) a couple years ago.
Ah yes, the East Penn Traction Club show last spring...
It's hard to believe that was less than one year ago! I didn't have my digital camera yet, and since then I've uploaded digital railfan photos onto Tripod, which is so slow that I hesitate to link to it any more, then I put a bunch onto Yahoo!Photos before finding Webshots, where I've uploaded two pages worth of pictures.
All this not to mention the several hundred photos of my grandson that I've emailed to family members. I guess I've had a busy year.
What is the Average speed on th R-32 & R-38 in the Tunnel from Brooklyn to Manhattan?
Yes folks, The R 62As for the 7 line are now in service. The consist is as follows: South---> 2150 2146 2149 2153 2154 2148 1701 1702 1703 1704 1705 <---North. I understand 6 more cars will be arriving this week. Stay Tuned.....
Halelujah! I'm taking the 7 tomorrow!
Dan
Yep, that's right, folks...got the pics to prove it...
Tomorrow, I might hit both the 7 and L lines...
Here are some pics I took today...
The first and second pics were taken at 45th Road-Court House Sq; the last one was taken at 61st St-Woodside.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page...Cruising the Northeast Fare-free!
LMAO!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
:) eeeeee!!!!!!
See that guy at the railfan window? That's me.
I thought it was Elvis. That always happens to me! :)
Wow, totally different from the Redbirds there! Looks like 240st. cars seeing the picture here.
Well, 5 cars from Pelham, 6 from the Livonia fleet...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
I couldnt tell by the pics(except for the one of 1701), but do all of the cars have the correct color stripes underneath the car #s?
The color stripes hadn't been updated as of Tuesday. The six cars at the Manhattan end had blue stripes; the five cars at the Flushing end had yellow stripes.
Let me guess, do the stripes represent what yard they're from? And since they're at Corona yard, what color will they use?
im not sure, but yea the stripes mean what yard they are from. yellow means from westchester yard on the 6, blue from livonia or 148th on the 3 and so on. im not sure, maybe they will use the purple corona stripes. im not too sure...............
purple....hmmm....i like that
--jonathan c
Or, they might just discontinue the use of the stripes under the car numbers (not only for the 7 line, but for the entire IRT fleet)...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
242- Red
180- Green
148- Blue
Pelham-Yellow
Corona-Black
Ooh, black! We get the evil color! lol!
Is it just me or are these redbirds R-62s looking unusually shiny? (wow, thank you lord for the preview button).
What a strange sight that is.
Almost as strange as seeing the R-10s on any line other than the A.
or c
It was strange to me to see the R-10s even on the C. Understand, I still remember them on the A. Rode them on the A many times. To me the R-10s ARE the A train. Always will be. Nothing can ever top a train of Thunderbirds strutting their stuff along CPW.
>>It was strange to me to see the R-10s even on the C.<<
How about 21 years ago when the R-10s were on the (D), (E) and (F) during the R-46 Rockwell truck fiasco ! Now that's strange !!
Bill "Newkirk"
You're telling me. I rode on a D train of R-10s once, and it did its usual stuff along CPW. I saw one R-10 E train at WTC on September 5, 1980, just before I left for Colorado.
>>You're telling me. I rode on a D train of R-10s once, and it did its usual stuff along CPW<<
Yeah but CPW is considered R-10 territory.
R-10s on the Brighton Express, now that's wild !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yep ... very odd to see the R-10s on the Brighton express.
--Mark
I'm sure they thundered and blazed there, too.
Great quality pics, but what kind of camera do you use? I'm curious!
I use an Olympus Camedai C3020 Zoom Digital Camera. I use digital nowadays, since December, and I have already used up two and a half memory cards, taking pics like there's no tomorrow...and some good stuff came out, too!
BTW, plan to look for them again today!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
I use an Olympus Camedia C3020 Zoom Digital Camera. I use digital nowadays, since December, and I have already used up two and a half memory cards, taking pics like there's no tomorrow...and some good stuff came out, too!
BTW, plan to look for them again today!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Thanks, I've always wondered how those great pics were made! Can't wait for your next batch!
Well, you can lok at a post that was titled "R142 #6771-6775" and see a pic of #6771 I posted...if I had the link, I'd give it to you...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Here is another batch of pics, as promised...
Have fun!
#8108 at the Sutter Av Station, East New York.
#8108 at 6th Avenue, Manhattan.
#8101 at Rockaway Parkway, Canarsie.
#8101 at Atlantic Av, East New York.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Very nice, airbus!!! Thank you for all the pics :-) -Nick
Wonderful! By the way, I was able to find the link the R142A pic you posted, it was great also. While looking at the pics, I see a steel tablet that sticks out just below the door indicator light. What is it?
It's an R142...#6771 is an R142...
That steel tablet that you might be referring to is the cover for the crew door opener...it's how crew members get in with a special key they use...you can ask other Subtalkers for what that key is really called...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Thats a Nice shots u got there! I like the one in middle showing E V G sign on the right :)
Nice pics!! Guess, though, the people of the 7 will now have to get used to seeing "silver" and not "red" anymore!!
the uglys should only run local ...............lol!!
Well, I guess this will mean that the "Redbirds" that dominated on the IRT Corona-Flushing Line will soon be gone forever.
#3 West End Jeff
Why is it that the side signs say 7 Express while the end signs say 7 Local?
- Lyle Goldman
Who has Siemens-built LRV cars running in their cities?
I've seen pictures of some of them, and I know they're all in the family of the SD line, and although many of them have tall doors (low platform), as I've mentioned before Calgary has the SD-160's. (I really hope David P can get those pictures I took up on the site so I can show you guys)
-JLeung!
JLeung--
I put up just now three of your photos that show the LRV's.
Calgary Light Rail
Sorry for the delay!
-Dave
Thanks! Hope to see the rest of 'em up soon. :)
-J!
Speaking of which, what ever happened to those Champlain Flyer pictures I submitted?
Mark
Cities with the Siemens LRV's that I know of....
San Diego (1000's are U2's, 2000's are SD-somethings)
Sacramento
Denver
St. Louis
Pittsburgh
Edmonton
Calgary
Pittsburgh has 55 SD-400 cars
>>> Cities with the Siemens LRV's that I know of.... <<<
How could you forget Los Angeles?
Tom
I think New Orleans is mostly trolly. But a few years back when I was there, they had a test LRV of some sort for their new Canal Street line. It ran along the riverfront line. But that may have been a modern trolly, I don't remember. I was there a few weeks ago, they have started work on the Canal Street line there. It will be nice to see the trolly up Canal Street. They are also planning a new route somewhere else in the city but I'm not sure where. (Anyone know?) And the St Charles route is not to be missed if anyone goes to New Orleans. It's a great city, the people there are so friendly.
I've seen modern LRVs being tested on Canal Street myself. In fact, oen kind subtalker was thoughtful enough to submit some photos of them, and they're now posted on this very site at this page:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/pix.pl?/us/neworleans=16
I've also seen historic trolleys being tested on Canal Street. Any word when any kind of service on that street might be restored? It's a perfect route for light rail, as there are separate lanes for the tracks, partitioned from auto traffic.
There was also talk of restoring trolleys to the 84 bus route, the route on Desire Street. Any word on this yet?
Also, there is a more long term idea of building a modern light rail line to connect downtown New Orleans to the airport. Any news on this plan yet? It seemed to be still very much in the dreaming stages last time I heard.
Mark
> one kind subtalker
Actually he's not a Subtalker. Just a contributor.
Actually I think the work is just beginning. The current track ended a block after Bourbon Street. They now have barricades along the former bus lanes (before it was a bus lane it was a trolly line originally). I think a plan is to also run a trolly along Rampart St. (did a trolly ever run there before, there is a large median, which looks like it may have.) But that is where my knowledege of New Orleans' trolly system and plans end.
'There was also talk of restoring trolleys to the 84 bus route, the route on Desire Street. Any word on this yet?'
Wouldn't there be considerable tourist traffic potential in bringing back the Streetcar named Desire?
I think that's the whole idea, and it's a great one. Tourism is such a big business in New Orleans, you'd think that that line would never have been maintained like the St. Charles streetcar was.
(But St. Charles may have been maintained just because the street has separated lanes for the streetcars, without thought of tourism...who knows?)
Anyway, I think New Orleans could really use more streetcars because there are a lot of people there on any given night who are in no condition to drive back to their hotels after experiencing the French Quarter...
Mark
Anyway, I think New Orleans could really use more streetcars because there are a lot of people there on any given night who are in no condition to drive back to their hotels after experiencing the French Quarter...
That is the truth! When I was there a few years ago I was staying at the Radisson which is way down Canal Street from Bourbon Street(Canal is where they are restoring trolly service, but then the bus used the "trolly lane"). We walked Canal St going to Bourbon Street, that was easy, there was no way we could walk back. When it was time to go home we literally "crawled" up Bourbon St to Canal to catch the bus. Not one person waiting for the bus could stand to wait. Everyone was just basically lying in the bus shed. NEW ORLEANS IS ONE CITY THAT DEFINITLY NEEDS A GOOD PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM. The future trolly on Canal street will be handling a lot of "drunks".
By the way, is anyone know how long it is going to take to finish the construction to restore the trolly to Canal Street?
I meant, "does any one know" I was thinking and typing two different things.
I found an answer: According to the New Orelans RTA website, service is scheduled to begin in 2004. There are more details online, including maps, as the project has its own special website:
Canal Streetcar Project
Can't find anything about restoration of service on Desire Street, though.
Mark
Thanks. Pretty good article.
Denver has SD100s.
Here's a photo link.
When will the last redbird be retired. Will they keep some redbids as spares.
They better keep some for the museum.
They should keep some for use when the R142 start to break down
They have one. 9306 is a WF R33, just not painted red.
Yeah I remember that one, but it would be nice to have some red train in the museum. Do they have an R27 or R30 at the museum, and what color is it?
The R-30 is in it's orginal color - Black.
Olive drab, to be exact.
Like UNDERCAR....BLACK. CI Peter
If this skip stop service doesn't work well on the 1 and 9, then how come it works well for the J and Z, is it because it had a longer skip stop portion than the 1 and 9?
J and Z skip stop service is only during rush hours. 1 and 9 was at first from beginning of AM rush to the end of PM rush.
Not for the last few years.
The J/Z skip-stop saves five minutes, and the last two stops on the line are major generators of traffic (although most of that traffic uses the E). The 1/9 skip-stop saved up to two minutes, and the busier stations are the ones further south -- i.e., the ones that don't benefit much but still have to wait twice as long for a train that will stop. The busiest skip-stop stations were 145 and 157, which didn't benefit one ounce from the arrangement.
Here in Philadelphia, the Market-Frankford elevated has a sort of skip-stop service during rush hour, and although the A and B trains only skip three stations each on the Frankford branch of the line, you can tell a difference when riding a non-rush hour train. The actual time saved may only be a few minutes, and the number of skipped stops could definitely be increased to save even more time, but from a subjective perception point of view, the all-stops trains seem to take forever by comparison.
Mark
As I've said before, even a few minutes saved during rush hour is a major timesaver, as well as a perceptual bonus over making 20 straight local stops in a row.
What about the people stuck waiting for a train that will stop for them? Does their time not count for anything? Time spent waiting for a train is more annoying (and potentially dangerous) than time spent waiting on a train; if anything, wait time should be reduced slightly at the expense of ride time.
According to the numbers posted here, 1/9 skip-stop saved 0-2 minutes for a minority of riders and doubled headways for a majority of riders. The average time spent traveling (including waiting) is higher with skip-stop than without. (My impression is that the same goes for Astoria W express service, although I don't have the numbers.) The point of the subway is to move people, not trains.
I actually believe that the way it was implemented, it more likely didn't save much time at all, might have even COST time. The skippers often saw a line of reds and had to stop and wait for the train ahead to leave the station, then proceed at 15 MPH through it and accelerate passing the station. By the time you got to 96th, it was a conga line of move, stop, move, stop, move, stop ... chances are the removal of the service INCREASED the line speed ...
Interesting. Are you suggesting that skip-stop contributed to bunching? Before 9/11, at least, the line certainly had a much worse bunching problem than I've seen anywhere else in the system.
I can only tell ya what I observed since when I lived on that line during previous "skip stop" I just used the A train ... it got tired fast. But I wouldn't be surprised to see history repeating. Tends to do that. :)
But the skip stop on the Broadway local really didn't help things any that I could see. Half the people got left behind and all got grumpy. And as we all know from here, nothing irritates the geese more than moving a few feet and stopping again and again and again. That became a way of life on that line ...
I don't think it's skip stop that causes bunching but bad operation. Not slowpokes either it's the RacerX's that follow someone that goes out late and you have instant conga. A few seconds off schedule add horribly to dwell time which snowballs.
The comparison of skip Vs. non skip schdules is not really fair. You are forgetting that it may not be possible to maintain the same schedule non skipped. Dwell time per station may go up but over the run it may be lower.
And in all honesty a T/O at the head of the line can fight the snowball by speeding in the skipped station and the TA quiety hopes that you do.
Agreed there as well ... it's just that this is back in the days when a motorman was left alone by supervision unless they crashed, or were LATE ... On the IRT, being late is worse than a wreck or at least it was back then and the folks working the line were definitely not wimps. Skipped stops often had warm bodies right on the yellow line there were so many waiting, and more obviously came out before their train arrived. I can imagine the sardine can stuffing put the dwells right over the edge, just like the "customers" waiting for their train at some stops.
It was really a bad idea on that line ...
If skip stop or any express service were implemented properly, people could get to the station just before their train did. But there's many a slip bewteen the cup and the lip.
Please explain how, if I get out of work at 5, I can arrange to be at the station just before my local arrives.
Please explain how, if I need to be at work by 9, I can arrange to be on a local that gets there just before 9.
Even if schedules are that precise and trains always stick to the schedule, if the local runs at ten-minute headways, local passengers are going to have to allow up to ten minutes for the train to arrive. That's the nature of the beast.
The busiest skip-stop stations were 145 and 157
BUSIER than 168 & 181st??
145 and 157 looked like deserted isles
when the 9 was around... whereas 168
was door-holding bonanza.
I beg pardon, Doc.
The busiest skip-stop stations. 168 and 181 are all-stop stations.
And even 181 is less busy than 145, 157, 191, and Dyckman.
See the 1999 turnstile counts in this post.
David,
I remember your post on this subject a while back. I recently (last day of so) again noted my observations that Dyckman is now much busier than 191, the figures are about 3 years old, does any one have newer figures for the 1 line? I would bet Dyckman is now busier than 191.
Piggo
Sorry, can't help you there. My only source of information on these matters is other SubTalk posts. It's certainly possible that Dyckman has changed places with 191.
I wouldn't rely too heavily on those 181st Street numbers. That station was closed for renovations for four months in 1999, from the beginning of July through the beginning of November.
I suspect its because the J/Z trains average a rush-hour headway of about every 5 minutes and are 'master of their own line' - ie, no competition from other trains east of Myrtle Avenue.
The 1/9 had a rush-hour headway of down to 3 minutes - now a minor delay to a train at a station, ie 168th, means a train as close as 3 mins behind gets yellow or red boards.
I think 'skip-stop' running is basically useful where scheduled headways are somewhat wider than the minimum signal headway for the line so trains can have a through run without restrictive signals. Once trains get frequent yellows, it means the value of the skips are spent stopping between stations rather than at stations, and if that is so, they may as well revert to that.
Here it is for your information. I work the R-143 5 days a week. Monday-Friday 1-9. I am the WAA Conductor making trips when there are un-qualified C/R's which there are many crews not qualified. I usuially make 2 or 3 trips a day on it) If any of you come by, Stop and say hi.
Lv CNR Lv 8AV
0701 0746
0828 0914
1000 1048
1136 1224
1312 1400
1449 1536
1626 1710
1757 1841
The train arrives in Canarsie at 1919 and lays up to ENY yard.
-Mark W.
I may come out next Wednesday to ride on the R143 in the afternoon.
Hear anything about them running on the weekends ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They are but I do not yet have the schedule.
-Mark W.
A friend of mine gave this to me I dont know if thos is still accurate:
Saturday
Canarsie: 615, 747, 917, 1047, 1217, 1347, 1517, 1647, 1817
14th Street: 704, 834, 1004, 1134, 1304, 1434, 1604, 1734, 1904
Sunday
Canarsie: 603, 740, 911, 1044, 1213, 1349, 1526, 1701, 1837, 2012
14th Street: 655, 825, 955, 1137, 1300, 1436, 1612, 1748, 1924, 2056
Im guessing it may have been changed. Also I saw the R-143 on my way home last night with what looked like Half of the lights out on the length of the train.
That is NOT the correct schedule. That was the schedule for the 30 day test only. The one I posted it the current schedule.
-Mark W.
Please post the weekend R-143 interval schedule when available, thanks.
I KNOW BACHMANN MAKES THE ACELA EXPRESS, IM 14 YEARS OLD, I HAVE THE ACELA EXPRESS, I WAS ASKING ID ANYONE MODELS IT AS A HOBBY, NOT HOW MAKES IT.
No, but I have a NJ Transit set of U34CH in NJ Dot colors and three comet coaches (1 is a cab control car) but when the whole set goes around curves, usually one or more of the comet coaches derail. I'd take it to someone to figure out what is wrong, but I'm at college now and I haven't operated that train set in over a year. Anyone model the Boonton Line? :)
Perhaps you're using longer cars with smaller radius curve tracks? You need the wide radius curves to run most passenger equipment.
Considering subway terminology it is interesting to note that the only trains to carry thru-exp signs were on the IRT. There was the 3 Avenue Thru-Express,#1 Broadway Thru-Exp and the #5 Lexington Av Thru-Express. The BMT and IND never used this term. The D is a full time express in Manhattan and runs express in The Bronx in rush hours,yet it was never refered to as a thru-exp.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There's no Flushing "Thru Express" either and that was (and is) an IRT line. Intersting how the IRT never applied Thru Express to the Flushing line.
A thru express is an express in two boroughs. The 7 is only express in Queens.
Come to think of it, the 4 is express in two boroughs. I guess the term was only used for Bronx/Manhattan expresses.
So, then, what was the meaning of SUPER EXPRESS, a sign that was listed on earlier IRT post-war cars. It may never have been used in a "serious" vein, but was there, nevertheless and spotted in use from time to time.
The Super expres as I was told by a Motermen, is the term they used to send the 5 Bronx-Thru express; express from E180th to E241st. It would only happen maybe once or twice in rush hour.
Frank D
I believe the Flushing line also had "Super Expresses" for the 1964-65 World's Fair. No stops between Grand Central and Willets Point Blvd.
"I believe the Flushing line also had "Super Expresses" for the 1964-65 World's Fair. No stops between Grand Central and Willets Point Blvd."
It cost extra too. I believe $.50 when everything else was $.35.
The "Worlds Fair Specials" or whatever they were called did not charge an extra fare. They ran outbound from the end of the AM rush to the beginning of the PM rush, and inbound after the PM rush, between Times Square and Willets Point, stopping only at Grand Central in between. They ran on weekends, also.
And, believe it or not, in 1964 the fare was only 15 cents (went up to 20 cents for the Fair's second season in 1965, or was that '66 when the fare went up?).
The TA did also run express busses to the fair from various points, and these did charge an extra fare (25 cents in 1964, not sure about 65). I recall taking the bus once from Nostrand and Flatbush in Brooklyn (was going to school at Brooklyn College at the time, had a morning class and spent the afternoon and evening at the Fair, took the subway home).
-- Ed Sachs
The 20-cent fare took effect on July 5, 1966, IIRC. That was a year before we moved out to Jersey.
And speaking of super expresses, who can forget that memorable super express run on the Brighton not too long ago when those slants hit 54 mph?
What made that run unique was its SUSTAINED speed. And the fact that the report was from a reliable source (a TA worker). And that there was a unique set of circumstances and plausible explanation for that run to have occurred in the first place.
Quite true.
I too remember these specials. I also remember the "follow the blue arrow" throughout the system for connections to the fair. I also remember anticipating the fare hike to 20 cents. The world's fair express bus used a different fare box that took quarters (unlike the then existing fareboxes which took nickels and dimes only.) WHen I saw these fareboxes start to go systemwide I knew the fare was going up!
One of the first subway maps I obtained has the "Follow The Blue Arrow" theme on it. Still have it, but it's all marked up :-(
Mr rt
After the World's Fair ended, those signs were changed to "Follow the blue arrow to Flushing trains and Shea Stadium". I remember seeing a few of those in the 42nd St. mezzanine.
Been there done saw that as a Flushing line rider in the late 60s.
Mr rt__:^)
IIRC those signs lasted into the 70s.
The only extra fare special I recall was the Aqueduct Special. Last I rode it the R-1-9's held court, the fare was $1.00 I think, payable with an extra large token. That was in the mid 1960's. It started from the 42st/ 8th ave lower level and ran nonstop to Aqueduct. It dipped under Euclid Ave and went via the center track on the Fulton El. That was some express!
AFAIK Aqueduct Specials also stopped at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Patrons boarded from the unused s/b outer platform.
NO!!! The IRT World's Fair Super Express did not coast a penny extra to ride.
And what's more, the fare in 1964-1965 was only 15 cents, not 35 cents.
"NO!!! The IRT World's Fair Super Express did not coast a penny extra to ride.
And what's more, the fare in 1964-1965 was only 15 cents, not 35 cents."
I stand corrected. I was thinking of the LIRR special, not the subway special.
Yes, Bob, that's my memory, too. They invented the designation for the Flushing Worlds Fair train that bypassed even most express stations.
There was a "Super Express" on the Flushing Line in the early 1950's. It skipped Junction and Woodside during the morning rush hour. There were 4 or 5 such runs that were mixed with the regular expresses.
Flx. The IRT did run a train on the Flushing Line and it used the "Super Express" signs. It ran from Sept 8,1953 to Dec 14,1956. It ran non stop between Willets point and Queensboro Plaza. There were three or four trains in each rush hour in addition to the regual #7 Expresses.
The 1964-65 World's Fair service was refered to as a "super-express" but the trains carried "World's Fair" and "Special" signs. It ran nonstop between Grand Central and Willets Points although during the second season of the Fair service was extended to Main Street especially during weekend evenings.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanx Larry. What tickled me was the use of and
( those <> marks being arrows on the role sign)and the use of "local express" on Pelham, which became "Pelham Express" in later years.
Flx: Yes those arrows on the Flushing train were a hoot. You had express- local and local-express. The #6 Lexington Av Lcl-Exp so called on TA maps carried a generic "Local-Exp" sign. Those they later started using the "Pelham Exp" signs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
An interesting thing about the WF R-36s was their side route signs. They either said "Local", "Express", "", or "". I don't believe they even had "Flushing Local" or "7th Ave. Express" or "Lexington Ave. Local" signs.
Steve: Thats quite true the World's Fair R-33's and R-36's carried only a limited number of readings; Local,Lcl-Exp,Exp-Lcl, Special and I believe No Passengers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks. You understood what I was trying to say (LOCAL-EXP; EXP-LOCAL) when all you saw were two sets of quotation marks.
An interesting thing about the WF R-36s was their side route signs. They either said "Local", "Express", , or . I don't believe they even had "Flushing Local" or "7th Ave. Express" or "Lexington Ave. Local" signs.
This is a repost.
Thanx Larry. What tickled me was the use of Local Express and
Express Local ( those <> marks being arrows on the role sign)and the use of "local express" on Pelham, which became "Pelham Express" in later years.
I thought a Thru-Express was an express that skipped some of its normal (express) stops at certain times. For example, the 5 normally makes all stops between 149th and 180th in the Bronx, except in Rush Hours when it runs express.
If this were to be applied to the IND, the D train would be a thru-express in rush hours in the Bronx, too, as Larry implies.
--Mark
A Thru-Express on the IRT was an express that remained express further out (like in the Bronx) where other expresses did not.
During that period when they were running rush-hour Culver Express service with F trains, Kings Highway F trains were express to Church Avenue, then local, as now. Coney Island bound F trains continued express to Kings Highway. In IRT parlance that was a Thru-Express.
The IND was structured somewhat differently in that they had a different service provide the local service for part-time expresses.
R-142: This is true yet for the Flushing Line the IRT had a "Super-Express." It ran during the middle 50's in addition to the regular express.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Well, what is a "thru express"? If you look at the IRT thru expresses, it is an express where there are two express services on a trunk line. One express is express in the area near the CBD but local further out, and the other express, on substantially the same routing, and during the same hours is an express in Manhattan and also an express further out, where the other express service is a local.
By that definition, "thru express" is a meaningful definition, because it lets a rider know which of two express trains arriving on the same Manhattan express track will also be an express in the outlying area.
How many other places might this possibly apply? I can't see a single instance on the IND, unless you want to argue in the past that, when the E provided the local service on the Fulton Street Line and both the A & E were express on the 8th Avenue Line (two stations worth) that the E was an express but the A a super express. But that's a stretch. ANd the A and E seem like to separate services, like the E and F.
The BMT trains that were express in Manhattan tended to be express in Brooklyn as well.
I can think of one non-IRT service right now that would qualify by the definition I proposed above: the circle-Q and the diamond-Q.
But by that definition, even the 5 is not a thru express, since all rush hour peak 5's run express in the Bronx. The only Bronx local is the 2, which runs on an entirely different route in Manhattan (and, for the time being, it's local there, too).
If we treat the CBD as ending at 59th Street, the rush hour D is the thru express for the B -- particularly when they both actually ran express on 6th. This wasn't the case before the B and C swapped north terminals.
But by that definition, even the 5 is not a thru express, since all rush hour peak 5's run express in the Bronx. The only Bronx local is the 2, which runs on an entirely different route in Manhattan (and, for the time being, it's local there, too).
Well, in the past you did have have #5 regular expresses and thru expresses running at the same time, so you could say the definition is grandfathered.
If we treat the CBD as ending at 59th Street, the rush hour D is the thru express for the B -- particularly when they both actually ran express on 6th. This wasn't the case before the B and C swapped north terminals.
But since they have different designations (B and D vs. 5 and 5 thru express or Third Avenue Express and Third Avenue Thru Express) you don't have the confusion which would require a "thru express" designation to inform the public.
Of course, the IRT also has the amusing designation of "Local-Express" as on the 6.
You'd think, with infinity numbers available (as opposed to only 26 letters, unless we start using cyrillic), they'd start to assign separate numbers to some of these discrete services, to lessen the confusion.
Well, in the past you did have have #5 regular expresses and thru expresses running at the same time, so you could say the definition is grandfathered.
That might also explain the usage of the diamond. With the 5's current service patterns, the diamond should really be eliminated.
Of course, the IRT also has the amusing designation of "Local-Express" as on the 6.
Also on the 7, as well as the related Express-Local, but there the key is in the arrows.
You'd think, with infinity numbers available (as opposed to only 26 letters, unless we start using cyrillic), they'd start to assign separate numbers to some of these discrete services, to lessen the confusion.
I disagree. The confusion is minimal. The two 6's are identical in Manhattan, and in the Bronx they're identical in one direction except that some trains terminate early. Similarly for the 7. That just about covers everything. If two services are the same or nearly so except for a local-express distinction, I don't think two numbers are warranted.
Of course, the IRT also has the amusing designation of "Local-Express" as on the 6.
Also on the 7, as well as the related Express-Local, but there the key is in the arrows.
And then the "Local-Express" designation doesn't mean the same thing as on the 6 as on the 7.
You'd think, with infinity numbers available (as opposed to only 26 letters, unless we start using cyrillic), they'd start to assign separate numbers to some of these discrete services, to lessen the confusion.
I disagree. The confusion is minimal. The two 6's are identical in Manhattan, and in the Bronx they're identical in one direction except that some trains terminate early. Similarly for the 7. That just about covers everything. If two services are the same or nearly so except for a local-express distinction, I don't think two numbers are warranted.
Well, it doesn't keep me awake at night ;-) But the TA wanted to rationalize the signing system of the subway, and it's like x steps forward, y steps back. They made a mess of the BMT system of named lines to introduce letters like the IND system, but the BMT didn't fit the neat logic of the original IND. And they eliminated double letters which, if used rationally, might have helped.
Now they have diamond services. This has lots of historical precedent in the industry, as in assigning symbols to short-line services, but that is also used inconsistently. Why do we have diamond-Q and circle-Q, but for the same effect, we have separate J and Z, separate 1 and 9?
And so on and so on. My experience with user interfaces for computers (I wrote on the subject of proprietary keyboards) shows that people will deal with and absorb virtually any system they're handed, no matter how bad, but when you set out to change a system and pull people away from what they were familiae with, you should be consistent.
Why do we have diamond-Q and circle-Q, but for the same effect, we have separate J and Z, separate 1 and 9?
I agree that the Q and the should be to different services, but they are not the same as the J/Z and 1/9 sitution. Those trains just alternate stations. You could never run J and instead of J/Z it would confuse the hell out of people, and think of the maps. Again the should be a different letter, but at least it does work in the situation it's in as an express.
IGNORE THIS POST IT DIDN'T POST RIGHT, SEE OTHER.
Why do we have diamond-Q and circle-Q, but for the same effect, we have separate J and Z, separate 1 and 9?
I agree that the Q and the < Q > should be to different services, but they are not the same as the J/Z and 1/9 sitution. Those trains just alternate stations. You could never run J and < J > instead of J/Z it would confuse the hell out of people, and think of the maps. Again the < Q > should be a different letter, but at least it does work in the situation it's in as an express.
AN objective of an information system is to convey its information as easily as possible. At least with the Q situation, you know that a circle-Q stops at all Brooklyn stops, all the time. If it's a diamond-Q, it never stops at certain stops.
But Eastern Parkway is a J stop all the time, but Gates Avenue isn't a J stop when the Z is running, and Lorimer Street isn't a J or Z stop at certain times, but is a J stop at others.
None of this is adequately communicated with signage. Same problem (a little less so) with 1 and 9.
They could ameliorate the problem a bit is they took a tip from other systema and the TA's own history and had different visual cues for skip stop than for other special services. Circle-J when there is no skipstop, triangle-J for J skip-stop, square-J for Z skip-stop.
If you're going to use signage for information, it needs to be non-ambiguous.
I wondered, do they run the Z's in the reverse peak direction making all stops, on the way back, or are they out of service on the way back?
If they're not making another interval, I would imagine they run light back to East New York. But I really don't know.
I know in PM rush hrs. the Z trains leave Parsons EMPTY and deadhead back to ENY yard. Those empty Z trains, in my opinion, SHOULD accept passengers because LOTS of riders get off the E and jam onto J trains for stations like 122, 111 and on in the reverse peak direction. SOmetimes THOSE trains look as crowded as the J and Z trains coming from Broad st!!!! Tony
IMHO Skip-Stop is a waste. It does not improve the capacity
of a line. All it does is save a few minutes in travel time
on lines where adding an express is not an option. It was
introduced on the J when Archer Ave opened with the futile hope
that passengers would be induced to take the J/Z to lower Manhattan
destinations rather than the E. However, the slight savings from
the skip stop operation couldn't overcome the general slowness of
the line and most people did not change their riding patterns.
The 1/9 skip stop was to placate whining residents of Riverdale
and Washington Heights.
The problem I have with skip stop is that it creates illogical
"can't get there from here" situations, and, as Paul pointed out,
a lot of customer confusion.
Generally, express is preferable to skip-stop. The new 9 (when S. Ferry is rebuilt) should be a clone of the old Bway Thru-Express, and the long-term solution to the J/Z should be to build the missing center express track along the route, and hook it up to 6th Ave, via the old K route.
According to the TA's timetables, I believe the J/Z gets from Jamaica to Chambers slightly faster than the E.
The J also has a more direct route to Chambers. But that really suprised me. I think the E looses it's time along 8th Avenue. In Queens, it get's through pretty quick, as opposed to the J.
If there's one thing I've learned from perusing the TA's timetables, it's that time saved on an express is largely illusory.
According to the timetables, in the morning rush, the E takes 46-50 minutes from Jamaica Center to Canal and the J/Z takes 47-49 minutes from Jamaica Center to Chambers (and, presumably, a minute or so less to Canal). That's not much of a difference, but the J/Z is probably more reliable and is definitely less crowded (and, IMO, is a more interesting ride, but that's of little concern to the average commuter). (I also happen to have a particular fondness for the R-42, but that's of even less concern to the average commuter.) The E runs at 15 tph (plus 3 tph out of 179) and the J/Z runs at 12 tph, so the average wait time is 30 seconds less on the E.
I have an affection to the J line, because as a teenager I've had some good times on that line, especially when Archer opened. And even without any fond memories, it is a more interesting ride. But as you said, neither matter to your average commuter.
>>> time saved on an express is largely illusory. <<<
That is an apples and oranges comparison. You are comparing two different lines, not the difference in time of taking an express or local on one line. There are quite a few pairs of starting points and destinations which can be reached by different lines, or various transfers between lines, some of which have a shorter travel time than others. For a true comparison between express and local, what do the timetables show for a trip from Forest Hills to Queens Plaza on the "F" and "R"?
Tom
The F doesn't go to Queens Plaza. I'll substitute the E.
The R has Steinway Street(!) rather than Queens Plaza as a timepoint. I'll substitute the V.
E: 14-15 minutes
V: 22-23 minutes
(based on morning rush hour)
But notice in this case that the express takes a shorter route than the local.
But look at the legendary CPW express from 59 to 145: three minutes. Really. Don't believe the schedule? Wait at 59 for a local and an express to pull in at once. Take the express. Get off at 145 and wait (on the appropriate platform) for the local. When I tried this, three minutes hadn't even elapsed when the local opened its doors. In other words, if you're going from 59 to 168 and you just miss an A, it's probably worth it to take the C -- and if you just miss an A and a C, go upstairs to the 1.
>>> E: 14-15 minutes
V: 22-23 minutes <<<
The local appears to take 50% longer to go this distance. That is a significant difference. On the CPW express you did not give the time of the express run. If it is six minutes, then three minutes longer by local is again 50% longer. If it is fifteen minutes, then the three minutes is still 20% longer.
Tom
Also the psychology of having to stop at all those stations as opposed to skipping them. I like expresses, even if it only seems to save a few minutes.
But why should the psychology count for anything? What about the psychological toll of standing at a local station, watching express after express pass through, wondering if anything will ever come in on the local track?
Expresses are good for railfanning and they're good for those traveling between express stops. For those trying to get to local stations, they're not just not-so-good -- they're useless.
But why should the psychology count for anything?
Because it's an important issue in customer satisfaction.
Aren't the passengers standing and waiting at the local stations entitled to be satisfied as well?
That's the excuse the TA used all through the '50s and '60s as they cut express services and closed lines.
And were they necessarily wrong?
A few years ago, the 2 began running local at night. That saved time for the average rider.
Last month, the W reverted to local service in Queens. Apparently, that saved time for the average rider.
The 1/9 stopped running skip-stop on 9/11. That saved time for the average rider.
By all standards, spending time on a platform is less desireable than spending time on a train. Trains are better lit. Trains are climate-controlled. Trains have more seats. Trains are safer. And the psychological toll to those on the train ("Why are we making all these stops?") isn't as bad as the psychological toll to those on the platform ("Am I going to be standing here all night?"). But I'm ignoring that for now. I'm doing a simple passenger-by-passenger analysis: plus 3 minutes for this passenger, minus 5 minutes for that passenger, whether that time is on the train or on the platform. Sometimes an express service is a net loss to its (potential) passengers.
The TA's job is to move passengers, not to move trains.
If all expresses were put on the local tracks, it would lose time for passengers. There would be terrible bunching up (a problem as it is) as any short delay would have a ripple effect down the line. (This may not be true in off-peak hours.) And don't mix skip-stop with express runs. They are highly distinguishable.
Who's calling for all expresses to be put on the local tracks?
Sometimes a train should run express. Sometimes it should run local. Which would save the most time for the greatest number of passengers depends on the circumstances.
Running insufficient service can also lead to bunching -- look at the 1. It bunches because dwell times are too high -- and dwell times are high because too many passengers have to board each train.
Expresses do have their place. I understand your frustration, obviously you live or work near a local station, but I do believe expresses are important. I used to use the 28th St station on the Lex everyday. I have waited for the 6 train and have seen the 4's and 5's race by, but I knew that Union Square was only two stations away, where I would transfer to the express to Brooklyn Bridge, and was glad to be able get on the express, even if it meant skippuing only a few stations. Along the way I would usually pass one or two 6's before BB. (The 6 does have good headways during the day.) And further up the line north of Grand Central, people from loacal stations had an opportunity to transfer at GC and skip and wiz by my station, 28th. I just accepted the fact that 28 was a local station. I didn't feel that they should run the 4/5 on the local track, just so every train would stop there.
You have to think of it this way. There are plenty of lines in the city that only run locals with only one service, lets say the F in Brooklyn, at (not accurate) 8tph. (All imaginary)They come into money and add a 4th track, to allow both direction express service. Your station at 8 F tph becomes a local station. A new letter is added and expresses run 8 tph. So now the express stations get 16 tph. They luck out, but you are no worse off than you were before, even though you see those extra 8 trains rushing by your now local station. Every service can not benifit everyone, that doesn't mean they shouldn't run expresses for those that it does benefit.
Basically, expresses are great provided the tph are good enough. If you have mediocre train frequency and then make half the existing trains express without adding service, you have misery and frustration. Especially if the express isn't much of one, as in the W in Astoria.
Expresses work best on the 4/5/6 because you have enough frequeny that the locals come often enough. But try waiting for a C on CPW some time on the weekend! Very frustrating to see 2 or 3 expresses roar through. Of course, that express run is still worth it because it's so long.
I have waited on CPW for a C, and waited, and waited, and waited..............but that doesn't mean they should do away with the express, it just means they should add more locals.
It's only three minutes.
There's really no reason for there to be two expresses but only one local on CPW on weekends. I've watched D trains go by with fewer passengers on board than were waiting on a single local platform.
That's true. They should probably switch one of the expresses to the local. The C is a joke alot of the time.
Why not run the D local on weekends, especially now that it terminates at 34th Steet?
Remarkable. For a change, we agree.
Before 7/22 (at least for a while), the B ran up CPW on weekends along with the C. On 7/22, weekend CPW local service was suddenly cut in half, with no warning at all (the "Manhattan Bridge Service Changes" brochure erroneously claimed that all B/D service north of 34th was unchanged; the first mentions of the B change were on the online schedules and on the printed map, which wasn't distributed to the public until 7/22 itself -- anybody who went to a CPW station that morning in search of a B was in for a surprise).
I'm surprised the Museum of Natural History hasn't made a fuss.
I went to the museum about a month ago. And when we were leaving we waited for a C. It must have taken close to 30 minutes for it to come. I didn't feel too bad though, the A didn't go by either until about 20 minutes. They don't run enough trains on either local or express on CPW, and the platform was packed.
The published schedule is 6 tph for each (A and C), so something must have put the trains off schedule.
Not that 10 minute headways are such fun either.
There must have been something wrong on the line, because it was very long wait, and it's not like we just missed it because the platform was already crowed when we got there.
I'm not calling for the elimination of all express service. That would be ridiculous.
I am calling for more thorough analyses of how to split the service on a line between local and express. If a line has much more express service than local service, yet the locals are bunching like there's no tomorrow and bursting at the seams, something's wrong. On some lines, like the 6, there isn't much that can be done; the existing service already pretty much fills up the tracks. On other lines, like the 1, ten-minute rush hour gaps are par for the course -- and then the first local to arrive invariably skips the local stops, as if that could possibly help the large crowd that's accumulated as the past four true expresses have dumped much of their loads.
See this post for some of my thoughts on 1 service. I've related two of my experiences on the 1, both on Sunday evenings, one on September 2 and one on September 23.
This is a duplicate post, but I posted it in the wrong spot the first time.........
It would be a good idea to start some trains at 137. I always thought the 1 ran as good as the 6. I figured it should anyway, and always thought it did. Maybe they figured that since the CPW line was there also, as opposed to the Lex, where it's the only line, that it wasn't necessary. That's bull, because CPW local service is a joke also. The 1 should be run near capacity on the local, especially the mid to lower half, where it's needed. Right now there is not too much they could do, because that line until November is and will be a total disaster.
I do understand your point better now, I was under the impression that you wanted to get rid of expresses completely, which isn't the answer either.
It would be a good idea to start some trains at 137. I always thought the 1 ran as good as the 6. I figured it should anyway, and always thought it did. Maybe they figured that since the CPW line was there also, as opposed to the Lex, where it's the only line, that it wasn't necessary. That's bull, because CPW local service is a joke also. The 1 should be run near capacity on the local, especially the mid to lower half, where it's needed. Right now there is not too much they could do, because that line until November is and will be a total disaster.
I do understand your point better now, I was under the impression that you wanted to get rid of expresses completely, which isn't the answer either.
That, in an nutshell, is precisely why I am an expressaholic. I do not care for stopping at every station when there is an express. The express may loaf along and be overtaken by a zooming local, but it still doesn't stop at local stations. It really is a psychological thing. Of course, back when the R-10s ruled on the A, it was positively exhilirating.
The CPW express takes 9-12 minutes from 59 to 145.
The three-minute difference means that (a) timewise, it's probably not worth waiting specifically for an express, especially off-peak, and (b) unless there are very few CPW local passengers, it's probably a bad idea for the TA to provide much more express service than local service -- express passengers can opt for the local if they're willing to take a three-minute penalty, but local passengers can't opt for the express.
A random selection from the B/D timetables in the early afternoon gives the following:
D 59 to 145 - 12min30sec
B 59 to 145 - 14min
A recent occurence - at 145 St, a person comes down to the lower level and waits for a D train to 34 St/6 Ave. I told her she just missed one, and the next would be along in about 8 minutes; she should take my B. She declined, saying the express was faster and she was in a rush. No amount of talking could convince her she was wrong. Upon arrival at 34 St, I went to the other platform and waited for the arriving D, met her again and asked what took so long? It would seem customers hate having their noses rubbed in their own stupidity.
..it was introduced on the J when Archer Ave opened
It predates the Archer Ave Subway by 30 years.
>>> It predates the Archer Ave Subway by 30 years. <<<
And the date of the document you posted??
Tom
1959, when the TA started one of its many attempts to attract people from the E/F to the Jamaica L.
The whole brochure is from the JoeKorner
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/jamskip.htm
Yeah, I know all about that, with the little A/B signs. So, let
me rephrase that. It was RE-introduced when the J train was once
again able to reach the CBD of Jamaica.
A couple of observations about the 14/15 skip-stop service. First, the TA made the system overly complicated. The trains already had the 14/15 signs because these services had been using the R16's. (They certainly had express/local signs on Standards). So, they introduced an A/B marker in addition, when a 14/15 or a L/E marker sign in the station would have corresponded to the train's actual marking. Second, the running times of 21 to 22 minutes is roughly equivalent to today's. Third, headways were 3 minutes compared to today's 5 minutes.
In this particular case, I think it was a good thing that the TA used the A/B (and color keying) in addition to the 14/15 designations.
This is because the the 14 and 15 operated at other times when the 15 did not skip stop and the 14 not only did not skip stop but also didn't go to 168th Street.
AFAIK the 14/15 skip-stop arrangement was used only during AM rush hours. During PM rush hours, the 14 either went only as far as Crescent St. or turned off onto the Canarsie line and terminated at Atlantic Ave. or Rockaway Parkway. This pattern continued with the JJ and was dropped when the KK came along, at which time PM rush hour skip-stop service along Jamaica Ave. was implemented.
Why can't they run the skip stop service on the Jamiaca line with the J still going to Broad, and send the Z through Chrystie onto 6th Avenue.
Where would it go on 6th Avenue? All the 6th Avenue services are 600 feet long.
It could switch at W4 to the 8th Avenue line, taking over the C from there. A number of us have suggested just that. (Better yet, send the full-time J up 8th and the full-time M and rush-hour Z downtown. If anything, direct 8th Avenue service is more useful off-peak than peak.)
Would the connection at W4 be able to handle regular service of the J from let's say: Broadway-Laf --- W4th --- 14th St(8th Avenue)?That would be a nice service, and save people having to transfer.
Yes, the local tracks allow trains to go either way, without crossing. Of course, if we wanted to avoid the possibility of merging delays, all service down 8th Avenue would have to go to B-L and all service down 6th Avenue would have to go to Spring. (Could you imagine the E train at Coney Island?)
There's no such flexibility on the express tracks. In fact, if an A train stops on the express track at 59 and accepts the green-over-green lineup leaving the station just as another train stalls in the Cranberry tube, it (our original A train, that is) can't get to Brooklyn without reversing twice. (In fact, it would probably terminate at WTC and head back uptown, with Brooklyn-bound passengers directed either across the platform or downstairs at W4, depending on how subsequent A's were routed.)
Wow, just adding blue to one of the Coney Island lines would be pretty neat!
Southbound at 59th St., the express-to-local crossover is north of the station. South of the station is the diverging wye for 6th Ave. trains. Frankly, I don't see why it would be so difficult to covert the local-to-express crossover between 34th and 23rd (the one which provides access to the center layup track) to a scissor switch. Ditto on the northbound side.
Agreed. If the blockage takes place before our protagonist reaches 59, it can switch to the local. If it takes place while the train is stopped, it can run down 6th. But once it passes the turnoff to 6th, it's stuck.
That also means that, if something strange is brewing downtown and it's not clear if service there will have to be interrupted, A trains are sent local just in case, needlessly clogging up the poor local track.
I still think the 6th Avenue line should donate one of its extraneous crossovers (between 34 and 42) to the 8th Avenue line.
How about this: switch all local service south of W 4th. That way there are no merging delays. Expresses don’t switch, of course (they can’t).
- C runs over the WB.
- A and V serve Fulton Line. V would run weekends but might terminate at Queens Plaza.
- E serves Culver Line.
- F terminates at WTC.
Benefits:
M/J/Z line has one service to midtown.
Fulton line now has direct service to both 6th and 8th Aves.
6th Ave now has direct service to lower Manhattan just like all the other main lines in midtown do.
Fulton Line is more balanced with its counterparts at the other end. Right now it needs a lot more trains than the A +C to upper Manhattan, so you get more service southbound on the A than northbound in the evening rush. A + V is more balanced in both directions.
Hey! That's my idea. Well, almost. I'd send the F to Euclid and the V to WTC, retaining the V's weekday-only service pattern. If we want to entertain sending the V to Church (or beyond) as a local, allowing the E to run express, that could still be done, but it would entail a bit of merging at either W4 or Jay. (In that case, the WTC station would be closed. No big deal; without the WTC itself, it's just one platform out of three in a transfer point. That will change in a few years, of course, but it's really just a platform, not a full station.)
I'd run the merged C/J (which I'd probably call the J, but in blue) at all times, extended to 207 nights. The F would run at all times, extended to Lefferts nights (if not at all times). The A wouldn't run at night. The round-robin H would be revived to serve the Rockaways from Euclid.
The M (all times) and Z (rush hours) would serve lower Manhattan.
I especially like the flexibility this offers across W4.
The big problem, especially in my version of the plan (with the F rather than the V running to Euclid), is the massive service increase on the Fulton local. I have nothing against service improvements, but is that much service really warranted on that line? Probably not, although I haven't seen the numbers.
"The big problem, especially in my version of the plan (with the F rather than the V running to Euclid), is the massive service increase on the Fulton local. I have nothing against service improvements, but is that much service really warranted on that line? Probably not, although I haven't seen the numbers."
One possibility would be to give the F service two different designations (say (F) and , or F and C) in rush hours, and run only one of those to Euclid.
Also, my understanding is that the Euclid local doesn't fill up even the 6 C trains per hour, so the full load of F trains would be a lot of extra trains.
Third, 6th Ave really deserves a few more trains on the weekend. Running the V from Queens Plaza wouldn't cost much extra (since the Chambers to Euclid part is already happening).
Another possibility would be to run the V to Euclid on weekdays and the F on weekends, with the WTC station closed on weekends.
Where could the alternate F's (whatever you want to call them) turn? WTC, maybe? They'd have to share with the V.
Keep in mind that, come 2004, 6th Avenue will presumably have more service than it has now, in the form of the B and/or D (depending on the details of the service arrangement). Perhaps the B/D should run local on weekends (and nights); the express run only saves a minute but bypasses a transfer point.
WTC can turn at least 15 tph (it turns that many Es now). The rest can go to Euclid, maybe also to Rockaway Park in rush hour (more efficient than sending trains empty down from 207th).
Definitely on weekends pre-July 2001 it was absurd to have both the B and D run express. 14th and 6th is pretty heavily used.
There has been rush hour skip-stop service in some form, Manhattan-bound at least, on the Jamaica line ever since 1959. After BMT number markings were dropped, the JJ and QJ ran skip-stop. Then it was the KK and QJ, and still later, J trains made two sets of stops.
I am only reaching here, since we all know that common sense and MTA is an oxymoron, but if one sees a 9 train then it SHOULD be assumed that there is 1 and 9 skip stop service, somewhat similar with the J/Z i mean would u remember that <1> stops at Dyckman but not 207. in this case different letters make somewhat easier- maybe i'm wrong- to determine skip stops. The difference with , first it runs middays as well as rush. 2nd there are two diiferent tracks after Prospect pk to brighton One local one express with signs and approprite letters in most cases to that effect- whereas the 1/9 and J/Z are on the same track so it isn't as clear what train youre boarding esp. if youre running up the stairs at say 125th(NB) Once you reach 137, skip stop commences if u want 157 and youre on the 1 u stop at 145 the 168. assuming you cross over and ride back, you may damned well make the same mistake (skip stop) is both directions on the 1/9 not usu. the J/Z or what if u get off at 145 when you hear the skip stop announced. u wait at 145 and see anothe train just for it to ride by at this point different letter designations are impt. hope to settle things
I personally think skip stop esp. on the J/z is a joke but thats another story.
Is there any chance of the MTA making High Speed Subways? Or High Speed Trains for Metro North or Long Island Railroads?
I do not know what you mean by a high speed subway? 150 mph... no way.
Did you see my Super Espress Subway map. It offers an idea of what could be done. See Subways 2020 and click on the "Myrtle - Fifth Avenue Link"
The only way that subways can run 'faster' is to have straighter alignments, less switching and less mergings. Certainly new lines ought to be built with this in mind.
Elias
This question is really too vague. What is meant by "high speed"? Fact is, some NYC subway express routes can do 40-45 on stretches where station spacing allows higher speeds (e.g., Central Park West, Queens Blvd, Lexington above 59th Street). Some LIRR trains can cover the 50 miles between Penn and Ronkonkoma in 65 - 70 minutes, or the 38 miles between Penn and Babylon in just over 50 minutes. These speeds compare favorably to most other subway and commuter rail routes in North America.
I think he means howcome we don't have express trains running 60-70 mph like Baltimore and the SEPTA Borad street subway.
I think its high time that we elevated the level of this discussion. So lets talk about the elevateds. How many sub-talkers remember riding
a) Second Avenue El
b) Third Avenue El in Manhattan
c) Third Avenue El in The Bronx (Suburban Railway)
d) Sixth Avenue El
e) Ninth Avenue El in Manhattan
f) Ninth Avenue El in The Bronx (162 Street Line)
g) Fifth Avenue El in Brooklyn
h) Lexington Avenue El
i) Fulton Street El either before or after the cutback to Rockaway Av
j) Myrtle Avenue El below Broadway.
k) Coney Island Elevated (This ones for you know who)
Larry,RedbirdR33
c, f, j ... (assuming the Polo Grounds shuttle piece of the 9th is acceptable) ...
Like Selkirk, I claim c, f, j. It's possible I was on b (with father), but since I have zero memory of it, I won't claim it.
I am *told* that I have ridden on the hird Avenue line in Manhattan, and I guess I do rmember it. I think I had some balloons with me that we had gotten at the Bronx Zoo.
Of course I rode on the third avenue el in the Bronx, and even on the Myrtle-Avenue el in brooklyn. When I got on the Myrt, I figgured that I had finally found the oldest cars still running on the system.
Elias
Does anyone remember how the Token/Change Booths were numbered on them?
The present numbering system could be a TA product, but I can't be sure. I've always wondered when the first modern booth appeared.... You know that boxy looking thing with a door on it's side and see through glass?
-Stef
I've always wandered how a booth is put together. It's assembled in modular fashion?
-Stef
I'd say mid 1960's ... they became ubiquitous around the time I worked for the TA in 70/71 ...
I came down to TA in late 1979. At the time TA was well on the way to building the current booths and R-151 Times Square was considered the first booth installed.
That might be right - Times Square was definitely one of the first. There was perhaps an earlier "vault" design though that I *think* ended up somewhere in Washington Heights on a trial basis. But the "conversion" itself started somewhere around 69-70 and they might have all been swapped out everywhere by 1976 or so. Sorry to say, wasn't paying all THAT much attention to it at the time.
Likely the booths started showing up before 1979. I think I came in at the tail end of the phase in. I remember working at some of the old booths when I was starting out. They were mostly part time booths.
That'd be about right ... it was a "15 year plan" and replacements were "prioritized" ...
Have you seen R-151 lately? It's a madhouse, since the booth located on street level shut down. I have to go there on Saturday Night to do a WAA job with the main night clerk. This is probably one booth that doesn't die down unlike GCT and Penn Station. The girl does too much on the night tour!
-Stef
I worked that booth once on my night off. I think it was R-147. I knew it was a busy booth. But I was working a quiet booth at the time and I wanted something busy. I liked it there. It definately kept me up. I wouldn't want to work it 5 nights. The only regret I have was, I didn't clean the AFC readers when I first came in. When I finally got to doing it at lunch time, they were filthy! The stuff that came off on the cleaning cards looked like a cross between purple crayon and grape jelly.
R151 was crazy back in 1981 when I had to work the gates on S/S/H. Nothing has changed over there. Probably all the stories I heard then have happened there again and again.
The token booth that we have now goes back a little over 20 years. There were a rash of booth robberies when the booths were made of wood and glass.
I can guess that the Myrtle El continued with numbers in the current scheme with the numberrs decreasing towards downtown brooklyn. If you will look at the current scheme, there is no 001 booth in that series.
I figure K1 was Park Row.
K2 probably was Sands Street
K3 and K4 was Adams St near Brooklyn Borough Hall.
That is my guess. I am tyrying noty to print the entire booth number system. I will only say that the IRT uses the letter R, IND is N and BMT uses a mixture of letters. Astoria uses IRT letters since it was originally an IRT Line. It gets interesting in multi-line stations such as Broadway nassau since the line the booth faces might noty be the line of the booth name- ie the booth by the uptown 4 is not an IRT booth but an IND booth.
Suffice to say that a booth has a letter followed by a 3 digit number and may have a trailing letter. A made up example is X501A.
I think at Fulton St-4 Line, R205 and R206 were once the Main Booths there. R207 and R208 were P/T booths installed when either the transfer to the BMT was built OR the A line was put in. R207 was later turned into N95. And R209 likely was at City Hall Station on the loop.
BTW I've wondered where was N96 and N97 ? Probably where A77 and A81 are now.
I rode on h, i, & j many times, and I did get to ride on b just once.
Karl: How are you? I was lucky in a way. My family didn't have a car so we took the trains everywhere. The els were always prefered if possible. I rode the Third Avenue El all the way from Guh Hill to Chatham Sqyare and the remnant of the Ninth Avenue El in The Bronx. The Lex was gone by the time I reached Brooklyn but we used to vist friends in the Rockaways. In those days you took the A to Rockaway Avenue, transfered to the #13 to Rockaway Blvd and then caught a bus accross Jamaica Bay.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
There was gas rationing during the war so my dad didn't drive very much. As a result he really learned the transit system. By the time the war was over the family car was 15 years old so he still didn't use it very much. We did get around quite a bit on trolleys too!
When you rode the 13 did you get to ride the C types or the BU's?
Karl: I will assume that it was C-Types as this was in the early fifties, but I cannot say for sure. I do recall however the Gate Cars on the Dyre Avenue Line in The Bronx. We lived near The Hub but we used to vist a shrine called "The Grotto" at St Lucy's Church. The closest station was Pelham Parkway on the Dyre. I first rode the 3 Avenue El in 1949 but the only cars that I can recall riding there were MUDC's and Q-Types.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
If it was between 1950 and 1956, it was more than likely the C types!
Just to butt into the conversation between the two of you, let me just say that if you never rode a Triplex D type train, you don;t know what a real car is like. Believe me, there was no other train like it, powerful, yet sleek. Man could it rumble down 4th Avenue and over the Manny B.
I wish I could have ridden on them, believe me.
I believe you. We ALL wish we were on them. And those who did wish they had brought cameras with extra film.
What really gets me is that we were in the city during their final few days of service - literally - and I didn't see any Triplexes. Just R-27/30s and R-32s. And we rode exclusively on the BMT Southern Division. I'm sure I would have noticed any train that looked really old. We left for home on their last day in action - July 23, 1965.
I rode on both the Standards and Triplex's, Fred, and I would prefer the Standards. I can see where your coming from though since it was the equipment on your home line just the way the Standards were my home line equipment.
Tell the truth - you preferred the gate cars even more!:-)
You bet I did, but I knew they had to be el cars, and not subway!
At least we agree that the BMT ruled and still rules. My only gripe with the Standards was that it was used on the 4th Avenue Local #2BMT. I despised that line and because of it developed a little negative feeling towards the Standards.
Fred,
Covering the 4th Ave local #2 was/is a dirty job, but some car had to hold the job down! Remember, the ABs originally opened your line and did yeoman service for years on all our beloved BMT "modern" lines. And guess where the D-types originally were assigned when they entered service? What I guess I'm trying to say Fred is to free yourself of this negativity towards the ABs, channel that energy towards goodness, move away from the "Dark Side", feel the "force"
Respecfully, Obi-Wan Kanobi AKA Hot Lunch!
The force be with you, I think I've just been struck by a bolt out of the blue. Thanks for the info.
Fred: The Triplexes were great cars, but you had to ride them on the Brighton Express to really appreciate their qualities.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Nonsense. The Brighton was just semi Triplexes since they also used the Standards. The Triplexes were the only cars used on the #4BMT Sea Beach. The Triplex and the Sea Beach were synonomous.
True. At least the Triplexes ran express along the Brighton with regularity. The only Triplexes ever to polish the rails on the Sea Beach express tracks were Coney Island Expresses, and those trains were normally BMT standards.
I rode c (Third Ave., Bronx) once in '66, and j (Myrtle below Broadway) several times between '67 and '69, and yes I brought film, though my shots were all in black and white. Though I did have a 35 mm Minolta, I wanted to see the prints rather than just have slides. Should have shot the Kodakchrome in hindsight!
Rode the D-Types in service twice on short stretches in Manhattan between '64 and '66. When I was small and lived in Queens, probably rode them out of Queens Plaza when we transferred across the platform from the Flushing though I don't remember them - memory - that's the the funny part. The line of my childhood was the E and F and I have vivid memories of the R1-9's. Also have vivid memories of crossing the street with my Dad when we transferred at Roosevelt Ave. to go upstairs to the Flushing line. I also remember the R12's/14's there too.
However, out of Queens Plaza? A blank - I only remember crossing the platform to other "old green cars with fans in the ceiling." We would then change to the Lex to ride uptown where my Dad worked ('55-'57) and ****n, no clear memory of Lo-V's either - just the old cars with very loud hums. Not remembering the BMT and IRT cars may have been since they were ridden towards the end of our trips and during the rush hour when they were packed with adults. Standing close to your parent, holding their hand tightly amidst a large faceless crowd of adults didn't warm you to remembering the details of what subway car you were on.
I can imagine the feeling of being small and in a large crowded train. But I always let my imagination run rampant and truthfully never paid attention to the crowds. I would get in the first car, smuggle myself next to the railfan window and it was just 7th Heaven until Times Square when we had to get off and catch that shitty 4th Avenue Local for Queens Plaza and home.
Anyone who answers yes to K must have arrived in this country on the Mayflower.
How about:
L. Park Ave. el
M. Beech's pneumatic line
Or they met them at the shore.
Chris: There's one guy on this board who didn't come over on the Mayflower. He met the boat''''.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wonder if you are referring to whom I am thinking of!
Now Karl. You don't think I'm refering to that #1 SOSB. (SON OF the SEA BEACH line.)
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey guys, am I really the dean of all Subtalkers? I'm 61, but I could have sworn there were two guys on board that had be by a year or two. And I did not meet the Mayflower. Hell, my ancestors were too busy tilling the land of absentee owners on the rocky soil of Sicily when the Pilgrims arrived here.
Fred, you and I know who is really the old goat on SubTalk, but we won't tell.....Will We!!!!!
No we won't Karl, just as long as it's not me. And if it is, I'll be wailing and moaning until the cows come home.
The Mayflower, or Leif Ericson's canoe?
Get a medium and raise the dead.
and while your at it, get the medium to find Delaney or Ridgway or Jesse Snow so they can tell us about the second IND System.
At least find out what was the key for the IND colored tiles!
<L. Park Ave. el
M. Beech's pneumatic line>>
Get a medium and raise the dead.
and while your at it, get the medium to find Delaney or Ridgway or Jesse Snow so they can tell us about the details of the second IND System.
Anybody feel like sharing the memories?
c) Third Avenue El in The Bronx (Suburban Railway)
Rode the Third Ave when the Low-V and 39 EF cars ruled. Never rode when the R-12s were there.
j) Myrtle Avenue El below Broadway.
Sweet memories of "Old Myrt" riding those Q Types in the summer with the lower window sash open, sitting in the cross seat and hearing those Q's whining on the "el"
Bill "Newkirk"
c and j. Also the Culver Shuttle, if that counts.
c- lots of times (with both Lo-V's and R-12's)
j - only once
b - I was 4 1/2 when service ended. I asked my parents once and they told me they never rdoe it when I was a child.
f - the closest I can say is that I had the chance to walk the abandoned tunnel betwwen Sedgewick and Anderson-Jerome a couple of years back.
As for the rest they were just memories by the time I ca.e around
"In Fourteen Hundred and Ninety two, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
And on the shore the Indians stood and said: "There goes the neighborhood"."
Allan : Its my understanding that on one of his trips Columbus actually landed in New York, near what is today called 59 Street. It was a holiday so no one was there to met him.
Larry,RedbirdR33
c - I remember the WF Low Vs between 149th and Gun Hill Rd.
f - One two car train (Hi Vs?) running back and forth on the southbound track.
i - From Eastern Parkway to Lefferts on C-types.
j - Q-types, before they had sealed-beam headlights, and while they still had drop-type 3rd rail shoes (the kind that they still use in Chicago).
Also rode the old Orange Line el in Boston (Everett to Forest Hills) as well as the Green Line viaduct near North Station (is that gone now?).
-- Ed Sachs
Yep, Ed ..the Green Line viaduct is still there. Should be for a few more years, too. Only a small section of it between the portal and the Boston Garden (now the FleetCenter) was removed for the Big Dig.
--Mark
Yeah, I road on the Culver Shuttle, but just barely recall Mrytle or Fulton Els as a kid.
BMTman
I never rode on any of those lines. My grandfather photographed the 6th Ave. el in 1936 from street level and another el from platform level. I'm not sure which one it is, but it has three tracks (the 6th Ave. el had only two).
Only "c".
--Mark
From the above list I only remember the Myrtle and the Bronx Third Av El. I even have a souvenir from the Myrtle, a cane seat which I stole requisitioned on the last day of service.
You should put the Culver Shuttle on that list, I loved riding on it. As a little kid it reminded me of the Hooterville Cannonball on Pettycoat Junction!!
Your right Jeff. I hesitated about calling it a subway or an el line. It was a great little ride though.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was a teenaged railfan when the Bronx Third Av was running but when they took it down I wasn't following the trains too much and wasn't aware that they took it down. One day while driving on the Bronx River Parkway I passed the Gun Hill Rd overpass and didn't recognize it. It was always a double overpass, a Robt. Moses type stone parkway overpass with an el on it, all of the sudden it was just a regular overpass!
Has the MTA thought of making Electric High Speed Subway? Im not talking like the Acela, maybe like 100 mph
What do you mean "electric" high speed? Electric is a given as that is what the subway runs on. Rather redundant, no? As for higher speed like 100 mph, maybe in some megalopolis which isn't too likely. Certainly any high speed as such simply is not feasible. (Coney Isl. to 205th Street in 10 minutes. Wow!)
You would need a car with stuff like self steering wheels, maglev, tilting, etc. A plan of super express trains that run over LIRR/SIRT in SI, Queens, Booklyn and underground subway tunnels in Mannhatten.
Where would 100 mph be reached? It's not practical to get up to 100 mph when stations are 1/2 to 1 mile apart. The acceleration would be too high for standing passengers. Subways with stations 3-4 miles apart, maybe, but then it wouldn't be a very useful subway. Another problem is that in tunnels, the pressure difference created would cause some very high winds. Even 70 mph is too much: MARTA used to run at 70 when entering a certian tunnel portal, but people in a control tower next to the tunnel complained of the pressure, so the speed was reduced to 60 mph.
>>> Even 70 mph is too much: MARTA used to run at 70 when entering a certian tunnel portal, but people in a control tower next to the tunnel complained of the pressure, so the speed was reduced to 60 mph. <<<
That shows that the tunnel was not engineered properly, not that 70 mph is too fast. The L.A. Red Line has a section where it reaches 70 mph in regular service without any problem. New York cannot get to those speeds because the newest infrastructure of any length (other than the cross bay trip to Far Rockaway) is now seventy years old and deteriorating. Therefore the trains are designed to run at lower speeds for safety.
Tom
Maybe I should have mentioned that in that particular tunnel, there are unused bellmouths for a line that was planned but never built. The control tower is in one of them. The air pushed by the train into the bellmouth has no where to go, so enormous pressure is created. Apparently, 60 mph reduces the pressure enough (don't ask me how, I haven't taken fluid mechanics yet :-) ).
Where would 100 mph be reached? It's not practical to get up to 100 mph when stations are 1/2 to 1 mile apart.
Obviously the hi-speed trains would be on long, super express runs in from distant points of the city on currently unused expresstracks.
There is no curve gentle enough on the NYCT that can handle 100 mph, express or otherwise. I think I could argue that no curve can handle 40 mph :-) And you forgot to read where I said 3-4 miles between stops is what those trains might need to work.
Then why does Metro-North have switchs that a train can run over at 90 mph. I asked a Assistant counductor from Queens, Fresh Medows.
I never mentioned Metro-North. I said NYCT, aka New York City Subway.
It is possible to operate a train at a high velocity through a tunnel. An excellent example would be the English Channel Tunnel. However, this tunnel, or chunnel as many refer to it, was specifically engineered to accomodate high speed rail. There is a third tunnel, or cinduit, which runs between and slightly above the two other tunnels. The third tunnel, while no where near big enough for rail travel, is used to equalize pressures and abate velocities. The New York City subway tunnels were not designed to handle the airflow from trains moving at such speeds.
And then there is the issue of practicality. The purpose of rapid transit is to make frequent stops over short distances. That is the design mode. Standard rail travel is designed to make a few stops over great distances. Commuter rail falls in between.
By the time you accelerate to 100 miles per hour in the subway, you have already blown past three stops. Sure, there may be a need for high-speed underground rail travel, but it would have to be another mode of transportation. I could definitely see higher speed commuter rail express service, if the infrastructure were available.
But I think by the time we get into talking about new, high speed rail, the MagLev question inevitably comes up. Will there be a new technology in the future that makes standard rail obsolete?
MATT-2AV
The third tunnel, while no where near big enough for rail travel, is used to equalize pressures and abate velocities.
The third tunnel is used for service access and emergency escape.
The two Chunnel tubes have small tubes running beneath them to equalize pressure, they arc over the third tunnel and do not have anything to do with it. The third tunnel is at a higher pressure than normal (it uses airlocks) so that fires would be blown away from the tunnel.
I think the French have the answer with rubber tyred metros. The new Meteor (ligne 14)is an excellent example of high speed rapid transit.
No crew, no hold upds, no super high tec. just whooosh!
Simon
Swindon UK
>>> I think the French have the answer with rubber tyred metros. The new Meteor (ligne 14)is an excellent example of high speed rapid transit. <<<
What is the top speed on that line? Are the rubber tires a factor in attaining the speed, or could it be done with steel wheels? The Meteor is ZPTO, but it is a closed line. Could that system work with interlockings and trains coming and going on diverging routes?
Tom
I have ridden it several times and would estimate top speed to be around 60mph. Where it does score is with very smooth and constant acceleration and braking. If you can beg steal or borrow the money come on over.
Simon
Swindon UK
Hey remember that it's 3 hours from London to Paris by rail.
Weekdays Only!!! Weekends, use normal schedule
(Q)- via (R) tubes. Express from Queens Plaza- 71 street.
(R)- via 63rd street (the Broadway lines can and HAVE gone through 63rd street.LOCAL
(F)- via 53rd street (with (E)) Peak hours- < F > will run express from 179th street.EXPRESS
(V)- via 63rd street. Peak hours- will be extended to 179th street LOCAL.
(E)- NO CHANGE!
So, there you have it. All tubes occupied. 3 expresses. 2 Locals. Any Ideas?
I see a few problems with this plan.
1. No change between G train and QB local. Also, no local trains stopping at Queens Plaza.
2. R and Q would have to switch between local and express tracks, which could cause problems, especially with all of the Q service (Q plus Q diamond).
3. Too much service on express, E, F, and both Qs.
To fix this you could switch the F and V.
E- 53rd street, local to Continental (reduce to 12 tph).
F- 53rd street, express to Jamaica Center
R- 59th street, local to Continental
Q and Q diamond -express to 179th via 63rd.
The express should be able to handle Q, diamond Q, and F. My plan would eliminate the V (it's replaced by the E, which in turn is replaced by the F, which is replaced by the Q).
Oops! I meant by (Q), the (Q) that will run in 2004. But, for Now, we'll use the < Q >
A way this plan could be much better is to simply leave the R alone, 60th-QB lcl, and then to make the Q go express through 63rd. True, you have two locals, but they both go to 63rd! This is no good because QP gets no locals, a big no-no.
A problem, or so I am told, is that BWAY cannot have service through 63rd st tunnel if it is also being used by 6th Ave.
If you look at the track alignments (elsewhere on this site) you will see why this is so. It is a real mess underthere. I seem to recall reading here that the BWAY via 63 was supposed to connect to the 2nd Avenue Subway from the Bronx, but even that looks like it will need some work on it.
To understand this problem, check out the track alignments here.
Elias
I see absoultely no problem whatsoever.i mean for example,there was one weekend in which the N ended at Lexington Av. while the R went over 63rdst.And this is last month or so.the only thing that happened was that we were held by a red light on the tunnel from Bway for a couple of mintues and that was it,the rest went uneventful.So its possible that Bway and 6th Ave. can mingle with each other on the 63rd st tunnel.Although now that i think about it,since there are so many trains right behind the other during rush hours,maybe the Q would go over 63rd St to 179th St Jamaica all times except rush hours when it can either end at 57th or go over 60th St.
Doesn't look any worse than the (Q) and merging at Prospect Park.
Here is my current service plan which would bring back 6th avenue express service.
A- current service
B- Broadway-Lafayette to BPB/145th, 6th avenue express, CPW local, Concourse local (You will see that the B can be turned around at Broadway-Lafayette the same way it's turned around at 34th street right now)
C- current service
D- Coney Island, Culver Line, 6th avenue express (switches are north of West 4th, switch on northbound side between Broadway-Lafayette and West 4th could also be used to switch train to express), CPW express, Concourse express
E- WTC, 8th avenue local, 53rd street, QB local to Continental avenue (12 TPH to allow it to terminate w/ R)
F- 2nd avenue, 6th avenue local, 53rd street, QB express to Jamaica Center (15 tph)
G- no change
J- no change
L- no change
M- no change
N- no change
Q- both Q's extended via 63rd express to 179th street via QB express
R- no change
Grand Street shuttle- Grand St. to Broadway-Lafayette via northbound track (B train would turn at Broadway-Lafayette by using Southbound track, notice changeover just west of station on track maps)
V- replaced by E and F
W- no change
Here's the weekend service with this plan (only listing sixth avenue and Queens Boulevard, the only lines affected by this change).
B- no service (assuming the MTA won't want to run it)
D- same route as above
E- same route as above
F- same route as above
G- current weekday route
Q- same route as above, though assuming MTA would not run Q diamond
R- same route as today
you reduced 8th ave service.
If you hate the V so much why did you make the E into an 8th ave V.
71st would be MORE of a mess turning 3 services at night and in general with those TPH.
Too many trains convreging at 36 st. 47-50 would be a disaster too.
W4 area would be a mess trying to clean out B's and D's with all those Q's coming in.
AND you are adding trainsets!
What problem are you trying to fix?
"you reduced 8th ave service."
Yes, I have slightly, but that can easily be fixed by adding 3 tph to the C, already underserved.
"If you hate the V so much why did you make the E into an 8th ave V."
That's basically what I did. It takes the E route in Manhattan and the V route in Queens. Cutting down service slightly to allow E and R to turn at Continental.
"71st would be MORE of a mess turning 3 services at night and in general with those TPH. "
It would not be turning 3 services at night because the R wouldn't run at night. And I said push back the G to allow for weekend service on E and R.
"W4 area would be a mess trying to clean out B's and D's with all those Q's coming in. "
No Qs would be at West 4th. There would never be more than two trains on any sixth avenue track. The B would always be on the express, the F always on the local, and the D would switch from local to express at West 4th.
"AND you are adding trainsets!"
I am extending the B, D, and Q, yes. But I am shortening the F, eliminating the V, and cutting back service slightly on the E, which will certainly compensate for the changes in service.
You're going to leave the upper level of Jamaica Center to the F? E to Continental? V dead? What in the name of Sam Hill?!
Not to mock you, but this seriously needs some extra work...and you'd better make the N look good (i.e. express service) or you're gonna get it from #4 Sea Beach Fred when he lays his eyes on this.
Don't worry about Fred tho, he does it to everyone anyway.
-J!
I'm not favoring or demoting the proposed plan, but just some observations:
"You're going to leave the upper level of Jamaica Center to the F?"
What's wrong with that? It's the new E.
"E to Continental? V dead?"
What's wrong with that? The F is taking Jamaica and the two Qs are taking 179th. Consider the E the new V.
He cut Culver service too.
Where will each line be shopped?
What he saves on the F he loses on the E replacing the V and the Extra D and B service.
Still not quite enough Q's.
The D should be enough culver service, and extend a few Fs down the Culver line if necessary.
As for shops:
Q and D can be shopped at Coney Island and/or Concourse and Union Turnpike yards
E can be shopped at Union Turnpike
F can be shopped at Coney Island
B shopped at Concourse yard, certainly no different than it is now.
I believe that Q circles + Q diamonds = at least 15 tph, therefore meaning that there is enough Q service. Slightly fewer trains on Weekends, meaning that F weekend service would be quite frequent.
In constructing this plan, I hoped to not provide something which would require too many cars and too much service changes. It might require a few more trainsets but nothing huge. Certainly, eliminating the V and cutting back on F and E service should allow for the extra cars needed on the B, D, and Q (In the case of the B only 1-2 more trainsets tops because it is only extended 2 stops).
What I just realized is QB exp service will be far over capacity: Q trains {both of them} are 6.5 min apart on the rush. That means there are two trains every 6.5 minutes, meaning four trains every 13 minutes, and 16 trains every 52 minutes, there's another 6.5 minute interval after that before an hour so that makes for four more, which is 20 trains: meaning the F, which is handling Jamaica Center by itself could only have 10 trains an hour, as capacity is 30tph. Uh-oh!!!!
You're right about the local. But the express (Q diamond) runs at mos t every 8-9 minutes. That means that combined, that's 17 tph at most. If necessary cut the F back to 13 tph (so that we stay at 30 tph), but that may not even be necessary. It's certainly not 20 tph, forcing the F to cut back to 10.
And some of us do it right back! Heh. We'll fix Fred's wagon one of these days - I'll come up to Calgary and empty out the Calgary CP locomotive shop and send all those old rusters out on the SeaBits. :)
1) There aren't enough cars to extend the Q's
2) Grand St shuttle is much more useful with connections at W4.
Besides, no express service on 6th Ave is necessay, and extending the B or D south of 34th St. could be confusing, considering neither uses the Manny B. At least you'll get forced off at 34th, where alternative trains on the BMT platform will allow you to get to Brooklyn B/D stations.
And I still don't comprehend this bizarre obsession some have about extending the Q's through 63rd St. and out to Jamaica. What purpose does this routing hope to acheive?
"1) There aren't enough cars to extend the Q's"
According to the plan, the reduced trainsets on the E and the elimination of the V could provide for cars.
"2) Grand St shuttle is much more useful with connections at W4."
This is true: I say leave the B/D at 34th so the shuttle could go to W4th.
The B could terminate at West 4th then if you want to extend the Grand St. Shuttle that far.
If you want to extend the B/D, just end them both at W 4th to avoid problems. The only problem w/ this however is that Grand St shuttle can't get into W 4th, making for some angry customers.
Well, then extend one or the other, the B or the D, down to Grand St...use one or both relay tracks, switching over at Bway-Lafayette...run about 6-10 TPH down the stretch...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The D becomes the F, running via Essex street so that can't be continued onto Grand st.
I would extend the B to Grand but there's too much service to allow it to be turned there, that's why I turn it at Broadway-Lafayette (The fact that the B, D, and F will all be at Broadway-Lafayette should make the extension of the Grand Street shuttle to West 4th street unnecessary).
Or the B could terminate at West 4th, and the Grand Street shuttle could be extended there.
Yes, neither the B nor the D can go past W 4th either way you look at it. The TA cuts them off at 34th however so the Grand St shuttle could get into W 4th which is a big thing for customers in the area. If you could figure out a way to appease Grand St riders another way and cut the shuttle back to Bway-Lafayette, then you could run the B/D to W 4th. One more thing about the B/D: you can't end one at one place and another at a different place because everything would get congested as one train is turning while another is going through on the same track!
I can end them at different places because the D would switch over to the local track just north of West 4th under my plan. This would allow the B to remain on the express tracks and terminate at Broadway-Lafayette. Because the B would enter and leave on southbound track, the S could run on the northbound track to Broadway-Lafayette.
I thought that this would work at West 4th, but I must correct myself. It would not work because the B would still be going north on the southbound track at the same place where the D would still be going southbound before switching. Therefore, this doesn't work at West 4th as well as I had hoped.
As for Grand Street, I would think having three other trains at Broaday Lafayette would compensate for cutting back service from West 4th.
Here is what's going on on both tracks at each points
North of West 4th- B and D on express tracks, F on local tracks
Just north of West 4th, the D would switch over to the local track. Thus at West 4th the D and F would be on the local track and the B on the express track
Just north of Broadway Lafayette, the B train would move into the Southbound track to terminate Broadway-Lafayette. At Broadway Lafayette the Grand street shuttle would enter on the northbound track, with the B on the southbound track and the F and D on the local track.
Your plan give no service to the 57/6 station.
subfan
To be honest with u, I have a little bit of problem with this. Few questions and comment.
>>>E- WTC, ........ QB local to Continental avenue (12 TPH to allow it to terminate w/ R)<<<<<
>>>>F- 2nd avenue, 6th avenue local, 53rd street, QB express to Jamaica Center<<<<<
It would better if E and F remained the same as it was.
>>>N- no change<<<
I think Fred ain't gonna like this. You how Fred is! ALL HE WANT IS HIS N RUNNING OVER THE BRIDGE PERIOD!
>>>>Q- both Q's extended via 63rd express to 179th street via QB express<<<<
OH, I guess that was the reason why you want to get rid of V.
As for the N, that's not at issue here. With both sides of the bridge open 4 trains can go over the bridge, but only 3 can with one side of the bridge open. Which three that is could be changed, but that's not at issue here. In 2004, Fred can get his way.
As I said, the Q being extended into Queens causes me to shift the E and F services. (F replacing E, and E replacing V). The reason for stopping the F in Manhattan and continuing D to Brooklyn is I think it's better for the express service to continue, Brooklyn riders would prefer an express to Midtown.
One question...what train would stop at the 57 Street-6 Avenue station?
Would anyone really object to closing 57th/6th with so many stations nearby? It's not in an area where there is an extremely vocal community like Grand Street. And how hard is it to walk west one block to 7th avenue, where there is lots of service?
You'd be surprised with the objections, considering that there are a good number of corporations in the area around 57-6th. Passengers generally do not like to walk when they don't have to.
I like your plan but of course it won't be instituted, so I guess the issue is moot. The only thing I see wrong with your plan is the F at 15 tph. That would limit the total of both Qs to 15 tph and thus underserve the Brighton Line. A quick fix: Run 10-12 of those Fs out to Queens, and terminate 5 more at 57th/6th!
Thanks. I think I calculated 17 Qs combined at max when I added up #s of both Qs (local every 6-7 minutes, a little under 10 tph, and express every 8-9 minutes, a little over 7 tph. The Q timetable is not very well done, Q express should be done separately). That would allow 13 F trains per hour, which should be enough (maybe send one Q every half hour at Rush Hour to Jamaica Center so that each terminal has 15 tph). I don't think it's necessary to cut back the F to 10 tph in Queens. Because the Q offers far more connections to other lines (it goes through Times Square and Union Square) than then F currently does, 13 trains should be enough for the F (I still don't think 10 is enough).
What about Rockaway Park line, would considered the "S" change back to H. Or would you rather keep it the same as it is?
Being that I've never taken any Rockaway train, I don't think I should make that decision. It's not relevant to the service change I propose.
In service as of 2/18/02!
R-142 Review:
6301-60 (60 Cars)
6411-35 (25 Cars)
6466-70 (5 Cars)
6476-80 (5 Cars)
6501-65 (65 Cars)
6576-6755 (180 Cars)
6781-6800 (20 Cars)
6831-40 (10 Cars)
370 Cars in Service. Isn't that what the 2 need to fulfill service requirements? Give or take a few spares of course...
All of these are in service, with more to come!
Coming soon? 6446-50, 6456-60 (at Unionport Yard)....
-Stef
Cars 6826-30 and 6851-55 are on the road in testing....
However, due to an unforseeable problem on the line this morning, the train was turned back north at Jackson Av. Something was brewing because customers were actually waiting on the platform at 3AM.
The follower behind the test train also dropped out at Jackson and went back north.
Hold on.... It looks like they're getting back to normal. A train just came uptown, while a train of redbirds went south. A GO is on the 2 this morning at Mott (149th St), requiring single tracking on the southbound track. I wonder if they had a problem in the GO area?
-Stef
Stef:
Remember that once that the 63-6500s start rolling, expect the 5 line R142 cars to start around 6701 or the high 6600s........
This weekend had a "retro" look on the 2, there were SIX sets of Redbirds in revenue service. On Sunday, I only got to operate the R142 for a half trip. I did not mind though, Ill never when it be my last.........
Also, 6826-30/6851-55 have the 2 to E.180St destination.
See my other post regarding the test train. It was turned back at Jackson Av, early this morning.
I know about what will happen with those OOS cars. I figured 6701 will be the start of the 5 Line Fleet. This way, the 2 has all of it's cars available for service plus spares.
-Stef
the 2 should get all it has now.and the 5 get what hasnt been used yet
I noticed that on Monday (President's Day). I saw about five or six sets of Redbirds on the 2. What was going on?
Woid of Boid: 360 R142s on the #2. 310 R142 cars in full service every day leaves five full trainsets. One full trainset in for inspection every day leaves FOUR spares. Void is filled with Boid. CI Peter
When you read the death tolls in third world accidents, it's as if the people in charge are wantonly indifferent to safety. The Washington Post reports 372 people killed in an Egyptian train fire.
When you read the death tolls in third world accidents, it's as if the people in charge are wantonly indifferent to safety. The Washington Post reports 372 people killed in an Egyptian train fire.
It sounds as if the death toll could go considerably higher. IIRC, the world's deadliest train wreck occurred in France during World War I and resulted in about 550 deaths. This one could be the new record-setter.
Are we forgetting what goes on with 'All india Rail' thankyouverrrrymuch please watch the closing of the opening doors? What is missing is 'third world body surfing and stuffing.' Gotta get some of those National Geographic railway videos...one sacred scrawney cow on the rail and hundreds die needlessly. CI Peter
>>> It sounds as if the death toll could go considerably higher. <<<
The news report indicated that they did not expect many more deaths. Considering that the fire gutted seven cars packed with 300 each, the death toll (372/2100 = 17.7%) is reasonably low. The real question is why the engineer kept going. Isn't there any communication between crew members and the cab? Isn't there some sort of emergency cord?
Tom
The whole situation is crazy. If the train hit a bump and one cooking stove started a fire, one car should have burned but seven? The fire was so intense that passengers struggled through thick smoke to reach the windows to get out only to discover they were all barred from the outside. There is no NTSB in Egypt. CI Peter
If the train hit a bump and one cooking stove started a fire, one car should have burned but seven?
With open windows (barred, but open) the flames were fanned very quickly by the air moving through the cars. And the train travelled for several miles, according to the news reports, before the crew even noticed there was a problem. All the other cars burned were behind the car where the fire started.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I feel like sending the Egyptian embassy a case of conductor's valves with instructions for their installation and use printed in Arabic
are they running today again? or just yesterday
Should be, but I'ma check it out anyway, when I leave school in a few hours...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Yes, they are running...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
From what I gather through another post the R-62As are running on the IRT Corona-Flushing Line today.
#3 West End Jeff
I think they run everyday. No reason for the entire fleet not to run.
=)
if u guys are referring to the R62A on the 7, yes they are running. Me and Cleanairbus was on it today.
I'm sure they're running on the 1, 3, 5 (in limited quantities), and 6.
Oh, you mean the 7? Why didn't you say so?
Unless something went very wrong after 5:30pm yesterday, the R-62A trainset I rode is on the line permanently. I see no reason it wouldn't be in service today.
We've talked about abandoned services and cars we've ridden. But what is the no-longer-existing service that was just the best and most interesting to ride--that if a bunch of former services, lines and cars were magically restored for a day, but you could ride/photograph, etc. just one, which one would it be?
Of ones I actually remember, I think maybe the Sedgewick Avenue Shuttle (155-167 shuttle). It just had so much interest packed into such a short space. The unusual station at the Polo Grounds, bridge over the Harlem River, tunn, sweep under the Jerome Line.
If it had been abandoned, I would probably say the Franklin Avenue Line. As it is, I miss old Park Place and Franklin stations, but at least the service was preserved. It would probably be too much of an embarassment to kill the line, after they spent so many bucks on it.
Of abandoned lines I never rode, I hardly know where to start, there are so many, but since I never rode them, I don't feel I could really say which were the nicest (though I'd have some ideas).
1. Myrtle-Chambers line when it was express between Myrtle/Broadway and Marcy.
2. Nassau Loop - I don't remember what number/letter it was called but I do remember using it a few times from Chambers St. on the Nassau St. line north and over the Manhattan Bridge.
Nassau Loop services almost always used Standards or SIRT cars which didn't carry numbers, but if they did, they would have been 1, 2, 3 or 5, the lines that used the loop. I guess Franklin-Nassau would have been 7.
Do you remember Myrtle-Chambers express service when the switch to the express track was west of Marcy?
I will expand the range and nominate the Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee--and specificly the Electroliners. It was fast it was convenient, and if the stupid tax laws had not allowed the company to siphon off what revenues there were for non rail investments history might have been different. I'll have an Electrobuger mediem rare & a Coke.
I will expand the range and nominate the Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee--and specificly the Electroliners
I was also particularly fond of the Electroliners when they ran on the P&W as Liberty Liners; also the Delaware River Port Authority bridge trains and the old Broad Street Subway trains.
I'll second that motion. I was still quite young when the 'Liners made their final runs, but I had the privilege of riding them a number of times (Mother performed regularly in Chicago and I would stay with her best friend, "Aunt" Audrey, in Milwaukee) and dining on a 'Lectroburger on the way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No doubt I would have remembered the Electroliners, had I ever ridden on them. Ditto for streetcars in Los Angeles. I can remember back that far.
There was the outer end of the Jamaica line when it still ran out to 168th St. I rode on it a few times.
Have you seen some of the old pictures of 168th St. It looks like they ran the old trains right to the very end of the track, and it doesn't look like there were bumpers at the end of track back then either.
In my time I don't think they ever ran the Standards closer than about fifty feet away from the bumpers.
How about the time in the 20's when a Standard ran PAST the end of the track?Theres a cool pic of it in SUBWAY CARS OF THE BMT.....
I've seen that picture that you refer to, and suspect that was the reason that bumpers were installed!
I dont think bumpers would have stopped a determined Standard ;-)
A cinder block wall couldn't stop a determined BMT standard. A BMT standard could have crashed through the anti-tank portion of the Berlin Wall at the Brandenburg Gate.
Maybe there was a braking problem with that train at 168th St.
A cinder block wall couldn't stop a determined BMT standard. A BMT standard could have crashed through the anti-tank portion of the Berlin Wall at the Brandenburg Gate.
What about a Triplex?
Maybe there was a braking problem with that train at 168th St.
No, it meant to do that. It was determined to keep going and claim Nassay County for the BMT. :)
A Triplex would have inflicted even greater damage.:-)
Steve, Sometimes I think that you liked the Triplex because they had front route signs, and disliked the Standards because they didn't.
You're partly correct. I did dislike the BMT standards because they didn't have signs up front, yes. Plus I thought they were just plain ugly. I knew nothing about the Triplexes - didn't even know there was such a thing - until I saw a postcard of the Triplex Nostalgia Train at Shoreline in 1980. I had become familiar with the R units and their route and destination sign arrangement before I saw the BMT standards for the first time. It was at Broadway Junction on the Canarsie on July 20, 1967. All I could think was, I got off an A train for THIS?!?
I always though that the Standards has a rather pleasant appearance.
But I did like trains with front signs--like the Triplex. Oddly, I was thrilled when I first heard the R27s were going to be delivered because, although I new there would be fewer Standards, there would be more trains with front roll signs.
Then I saw my first picture of them (in the Daily News, IIRC) and was crestfallen when I saw the front sign saying QT instead of 1.
This was followed by that "Broadway-Brighton" crap, and the removal of place names on the destination signs. No sir, didn't care for it at all.
Paul,
I too just loved the Standards and thought they had a pleasant appearance. Besides, the spacious interior layout of them made you feel right at home. It was so sad as a small boy watching cut up ABs being trucked along Cropsey Ave. I never did see the D-types receiving the same fate, otherwise the nightmares of such sights of both of them would have caused me many sleepless nights.
What I wouldn't give to go back to 1963 and see them both operating on the Sea Beach, West End and Brighton Lines.
We've got: Hot Lunch
With the Triplexes, the term "slaughterhouse" can be substituted for "scrapyard".
Another turnoff for me was the fact that the BMT standards had three sets of doors per side. No big deal, but I had gotten used to seeing four sets per side on IND/BMT R units. Keep in mind I was all of 10 when I saw the standards for the first time. Want to know about another turnoff for me at the time? The lack of a rubber grommet around the windows on door interiors of the R-17s, R-21s, and R-22s. Don't ask why. It's pretty weird. And to think the R-10s were guilty of this, too, and I loved them to death. Come to think of it, the R-1/9s didn't have them on their door interiors, either, and you all know how I feel about those oldtimers.
Another turnoff for me was the fact that the BMT standards had three sets of doors per side. No big deal, but I had gotten used to seeing four sets per side on IND/BMT R units.
"Nothing is good or bad but..."
For me it was the opposite, the door arrangements on almost all BMT equipment gave you a halfway chance of finding a comfy warm nook on a winter's day. On an R-type, especially the later ones with the staggered doors, all the heat could be blasted right out of the car at any outdoors station.
OTOH, having ridden many R-types, I can well understand the desire to have as many doors as possible, so you could escape them in a BIG hurry.
>>> the door arrangements on almost all BMT equipment gave you a halfway chance of finding a comfy warm nook on a winter's day. <<<
I never wanted a warm nook when riding in the winter. When I left the house I was bundled up in heavy clothing, so if the subway car was heated above 50º, it seemed stuffy, and when I left the train I would be chilled.
Tom
How long were the Triplex cars? All I know is that they were NOT 67 ft.
They were three units, A, B, & C riding on four trucks.
Each three unit set was about 137' long.
Did they couple together 3 or 4 of those 3 unit sets to form a train? 137 ft sounds VERY short to me!
James: One Triplex was the equivalent of two Standards. They ran in trains of up to four units equally eight AB's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Triplexes were proportionally heavier than the BMT standards. One Triplex unit weighed in at 103 to 106 tons. Two BMT standards weighed 98-99 tons. In terms of axle load weight, the Triplexes took the cake.
Perhaps not, but the early pictures seem to indicate that the line was in service in the beginning without bunpers!
That train made to it 169th St.
Where can I get this pic????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When the D went all the way to Coney Island.
Ahhhh, yes. Most of my memories before the age of 6 revolve around going to Jamaica entirely by train. Unfortunatly, I also have vivid memories of it's demolition.
IIRC they didn't waste any time dismantling the first portion that closed. The second part, from 121st St. to just before Sutphin Blvd., was still largely intact in October of 1988, 3 1/2 years after it was closed.
I know it's a sore spot with you the way the premature departure of the Triplexes is a sore spot with me.
I ALWAYS loved the Culver and the Myrt ... and of course the 3rd avenue el ... the Polo grounds shuttle (9th Ave) was also a nice ride.
But for all time favorites for zoom zoom zoom, it HAD to be the NX which just blew past the SeaBits on the SeaBits express track, NO stops. :)
I know Fred would have loved it. He would have taken it every day, I'm sure, wearing a silly grin all the way.:-)
He would have had to take the Brighton line up to Brighton Beach to ride it, it made NO STOPS on the Slow Beach at ALL ... now Unca Fred on the Broghton probably wouldn't have made it past W 8 St before he had to wretch so it's highly unlikely. But us Brighton boys liked it, all 12 of us who rode it once. :)
Fred has admitted he likes the Brighton line, too. After all, that's how he would go to Ebbets Field to see the Dodgers.
Heh. I would have thought he would have taken a horsecar out there. :)
LOL
If commuter railroads are allowed, it would be the Central Railroad of NJ from the north Jersey shore to the ferry terminal in Jersey City (I think this is the terminal that is now in Liberty State Park, but I could be wrong) for the connecting ferry to Liberty Street.
The r10, r22, and the 9.
Best of the old rides. Let's see. The IRT Third Avenue El in The Bronx, the last stronghold of the pre-war IRT cars.
IRT #9 Dyre Avenue Line in The Bronx with Gate Cars, also years later with R-Types and the conductor collecting fares on the train.
BMT #11 Myrtle Avenue EL with Q-types. Especially above Broadway in the spring.
BMT #5 Culver Shuttle with A's. A link to the past.
There is a certain quietude to the lines that never enter Manhattan. Things seem to move at a slower pace giving you more time to enjoy the ride.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Where's the 12?
Karl: I never got to ride the Lexington Avenue El unless you count the remaining section between Crescent Street and Gates Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm sorry! I didn't realize that you were only speaking of the rides that you had actually made.
I was trying to cast a vote for the 12 as a great train ride.
Consider your vote cast. The Lex certainly qualifies as a former service you rode on.
Karl: I wish that I could have ridden the 12 but was gone by the time I came along as was the 6. I like the piece that you wrote for Paul. There was a wonderful magic to those el lines.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the kind words!
I guess that there are times when we all wish we could turn back the clock for a few hours or a few days!
>>> what is the no-longer-existing service that was just the best and most interesting to ride <<<
The 3rd Avenue express running from the Bronx toward downtown going through the bi-level express stations and ending up on the winding screeching turns between Chatham Square and South Ferry.
Tom
I liked the World's fair special which stopped at Times Square, 5th Ave andf Grand Central and then non-stop to the fair.
Probably the best ride ever was the Franklin-Nassau Special. Next best the Brighton/Franklin Express. Both were before my time.
I did ride the Brighton/Franklin Express. In essence it wasn't that much different from a regular Brighton Express, but it had a much different feel, tearing off down the Brighton Line after the hairpin turn at Malbone Street Empire Boulevard with a big crowd of happy beach-goers, delievering them in the heart of Coney Island, instead of copping out at Brighton Beach.
I wonder how fast those BMT standards took the nonstop Sea Beach run.
The Brighton Express run was a marvel of opening up the throttle, so I doubt the BMT would have put any restrictions on the Sea Beach portion. and remember that 8th Avenue-Kings Highway was an absolute block.
For fun, I'll nominate another from my childhood. The #20 Cabin John streetcar line of Capital/DC Transit. private right of way running on a route along the Potomac River and through suburban neighborhoods before hitting Georgetown. Way cool.
Ah, Cabin John. I remember just missing that one just before visiting DC for thr first time. Never got to see the plow pit in action.
Similarly just missed Willow Grove in Philly, which must have been a great ride.
Definitely the 6th Avenue Q from Grand Street to Kings Highway. It was the first line I have EVER ridden on the NYC subway.
-J!
If I may nominate an intercity service: the United Aircraft TurboTrains with the dome section at each end - the only dome service ever on the Northeast Corridor. If you were in the front section, you could see the engineer too.
First let me introduce myself to this board. I live in Pittsburgh, PA and I work in the airline business in an operations position, so I see everyday the ins and outs of what is going on with our nation's airspace system. I am originally from NYC, having lived in Brooklyn and Nassau for most of my life. Always was, and always will be a fan of the subways, regional rail and amtrak type services. Recently, I flew from PIT to Newark(EWR) and made use of the Airtrain to get to Manhattan. This was my experience.
Arrived into Newark Airport after an uneventful flight at about 11:30AM. Newark airport's terminals are not bad compared to pther cities, and finding the monorail station was very simple thanks to "red coat" attendants there to guide people around. I found the monorail to be a pleasant ride, albight a little slower than I had expected getting to the NEC station. It was now noon, and I was arriving at NEC. I had pre-purchased a NJT ticket to Penn Station while at the airport monorail station(A bright idea from NJT put that there), so I went immediately down to the A platform.
12:10 PM - no train yet....
12:20 PM - no train yet...getting really chilly out here...
12:30 PM - STILL no train yet! - A British fellow standing next to me remarks to me, "You think this is bad, try Railtrack back in Brighton...".
12:35 PM - At long last, an NJT train crawls into the station, and opens it's doors. Seats are full inside, so it's standing room only, but I don't mind at this point. I'm just glad to be going.
I arrived in Manhattan at 1:00 PM. Penn Station is vastly improved from the last time I was here, but still I can see it has a long way to go. Groups of the mentally ill seem to enjoy congregating near the Krispy Kreeme, and shoulder surfers are plainly visible by the pay phone corner. I have to say I wish they would hurry up and move this place across the street to the Farley building. It would be much more pleasing to the eye then.
A few hours later, my business in the city done, and a few nasty cab drivers later(The first driver was an obvious Muslim, and said to me while driving that he "hated this country and gave praise to Allah on 911"), I was back at Penn station. I was going up to New Haven, CT. And I wsa going to shell out $59.00 to ride on the much vaunted Acela Express.
I've ridden on many of the high speed trains in Europe, like the TGV and the ICE...I've even been on the Transrapid. So I felt like I was almost in Germany when I got on the Acela. Very clean, very bright and modernistic inside. Amtrak has done a fine job of choosing interiors. The trip on the Acela from NYP to NHV is no faster than any of the other Amtrak trains, due in part to the presence of Metro North a conductor tells me. So I spent my hour and a half in the bar car. Not too shabby, good seating, and the biggest windows to look on the city at sunset I have ever seen. Food on Amtrak was always kinda crummy, not much above airline food(if you can get any anymore!). I get a Heineken and sit and watch the city, then the Bronx go by. There is only one man in the food booth to serve people, so A line forms very quickly and moves very slowly. Everyone in line seems to have an opinion or suggestion for the conductor waling through. "This train should move faster!", "Why is it so expensive?".
He gave an explanation to all of these folks. It is YOUR tax dollars that have paid for Amtrak over the years. Right now, Amtrak isn't making a profit, but then again, that is because it is paying for a system in which 90% of the structure doesn't make money, and the remaining 10% does. The Mid Atlantic network, as he called it, has been footing the bill for the rest of the network. If your want better service he says, then contact your politicians and get them to force Amtrak to drop the Chicago to New Orleans or LA type stuff, and let the Mid Atlantic network keep the money it makes. Then it will make a profit and the money to enhance service.
In my opinion, transit in the NYC and northeast is improving, but it has a long way to go. Right now it takes over an hour to get from NYP to Philly, even on the Acela Express. Knock that down to 40 minutes and you have a huge inprovement. It takes 3 and 1/2 hours to get form NYP to Boston South Station. This could and should be done in 2 and 1/2. Right now there is a connector from Newark airport to the NEC, great. But what good is that if someone has to wait 30 minutes for a train to NYP? Why is there no dedicated line between the two, as in say London or Amsterdam?
I will probably be going back to NYC in a few weeks, so I will try to get a newer perspective then.
-IDE
(The first driver was an obvious Muslim, and said to me while driving that he "hated this country and gave praise to Allah on 911")
It amazes me that a cab driver living and working in NYC could even think of saying such a thing!
You're assuming he thought.
He's probably just waiting for his terror cell to be activated so he can die a martyr.
People like that are human waste.
"He gave an explanation to all of these folks. It is YOUR tax dollars that have paid for Amtrak over the years. Right now, Amtrak isn't making a profit, but then again, that is because it is paying for a system in which 90% of the structure doesn't make money, and the remaining 10% does. The Mid Atlantic network, as he called it, has been footing the bill for the rest of the network. If your want better service he says, then contact your politicians and get them to force Amtrak to drop the Chicago to New Orleans or LA type stuff, and let the Mid Atlantic network keep the money it makes. Then it will make a profit and the money to enhance service."
Why is everyone so damned eager to kill off the long distance trains?!
1) They are NOT NOT NOT NOT empty. I know you didn't say this, but everyone who talks about ending long distance service seems to start off by saying "nobody rides them." People ride them, from both the large cities and small towns along the route. And not just railfans and elderly couples with lots of time and disposable income, like some keep repeating.
2) The long distance trains don't make a profit. NEITHER DOES THE NEC!! In fact, the long distance trains are probably closer to being profitable than the NEC trains are! Think about it -- In the NEC, Amtrak has to pay for the repair, maintenance, and improvement of the right of way -- rails, catenary wires and supports, electric substations, signaling, etcetera, etcetera. When Amtrak uses freight railroad tracks, they by law only have to pay the additional expenses of the host railroad.
In fact, probably no passenger rail operation has made a profit since the advent of the automobile. From WWII (heck, probably WWI) onward, the freight railroads covered the losses of passenger trains from their freight profits and from the money the Government paid for the carriage of mail. (Subsidy? Do tell!) They maintained the trains essentially as "rolling advertising" for their freight business -- when businessmen still traveled routinely by long-distance train, they could end up shipping their goods by a railroad whose passenger service impressed them. When the jet plane siphoned away most BUSINESS travelers, and the Post Office pulled its mail cars off the trains, it was only a few more years, and a whole bunch of terminated passenger routes, before Amtrak was created to take over the remaining passenger trains from the freight companies that no longer wanted them.
The European trains you spoke so highly of, do you think they run at a profit? NO! The European governments, and the Japanese with their excellent system, willingly spend BILLIONS in tax money on their passenger rail systems. Even when the British were all gung-ho about privatizing their rail network, they still put over 48 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR of tax money into capital improvements to the right of way, knowing that the system could not run at the level the public demands on strictly profits and private capital.
The reason I say that it should only be the East coast services on Amtrak in the future is that with enough upgrading of equipment and speed, it is more desirable to take the train rather than fly. case in point: the air shuttles. Even before Sept 11, taking the shuttle between NYC and DCA and BOS was a nasty time expense. You had delays for security back then, along with the inevitable air traffic delays. A good portion of these delays are due to aircraft flying on routes that are short haul, i.e. commuter routes. You should not have to take a plane to get from New York to Philly or to Hartford, but that is just what is going on right now(and always has been). Now, when you add in all the delays due to newer security and traffic, it SHOULD be easier and more efficient to take the train. So why aren't more people doing it? Charging $59.00 to get from New York to New Haven, or $93.00 from New York to Philly might be part of the problem. By cutting non essential services in other parts of the country(and don't try to tell me that people in places like Omaha, NE desperately need Amtrak to get them anywhere, they have low fare airlines there that are cheaper and quicker, therefore more efficient than Amtrak), more attention can be focused on the east coast rail system. Right now it takes 2 hours on Amtrak to go from Washington, DC to Richmond, VA...it takes the exact same amount of time on a plane when you add in all the delay time! Have the federal gov't force ATK to use the savings from shutting down the long haul routes to upgrade the existing east coast lines, with the promise of more budget money. Amtrak may never make money, even if this happens. But it will be a more leaner and better operation than what it is now. And let's face it, losing $100 mil a year is better in the feds eyes than the $1.9 bil they lost last year.
"By cutting non essential services in other parts of the country(and don't try to tell me that people in places like Omaha, NE desperately need Amtrak to get them anywhere, they have low fare airlines there that are cheaper and quicker, therefore more efficient than Amtrak),"
1) If flying is the be-all and end-all of transportation, why do so many people DRIVE between cities, including long drives across the Western plains and deserts? If Amtrak had more train cars for its long-distance trains, instead of being shortchanged and BARELY having enough cars for its existing trains, it could tap into the market of those who drive or take the bus because they feel they have no alternative.
2) Omaha may have decent air service, but a lot of places across the country either have no scheduled air service, or it's really crappy or expensive (or both!), because the airlines don't consider their community big enough to be worth serving. But the people who live in these communities are still American citizens and participants in the national economy, and therefore deserve some transportation service. A train is the best way to provide that transportation to these communities because they can make brief stops along the way while planes can't.
"more attention can be focused on the east coast rail system ... Have the federal gov't force ATK to use the savings from shutting down the long haul routes to upgrade the existing east coast lines, with the promise of more budget money."
You do realize that Amtrak's full name is the NATIONAL Rail Passenger Corporation. It's not called NorTrak or NECTrak, it's called AMtrak, as in AMERICA. While I think the NEC is an absolute necessity, there are people out in the rest of the country who would oppose losing their service, and would go so far as to support "killing" a Northeast-only Amtrak. Some of these people are in Congress, where their opinion counts quite strongly. One is the Senator from Texas, who I imagine has some influence with the present President. :^)
"Amtrak may never make money, even if this happens. But it will be a more leaner and better operation than what it is now. And let's face it, losing $100 mil a year is better in the feds eyes than the $1.9 bil they lost last year."
It's more likely the other way around: the NEC costs billions, while the long-distance trains cost a couple hundred millions. Acela just got 20 brand new train sets and has enough trainsets to cycle cars through maintenance or hold them in reserve for heavy traffic. On the other hand, the long distance trains haven't seen any new equipment since Reagan was President and often have to "borrow" sleepers from one train to provide an adequate number of cars on another train. Which one sounds like it's been getting more money?
>>> why do so many people DRIVE between cities, including long drives across the Western plains and deserts? <<<
Because they are taking along several family members and want a car to use at their destination, and see this as the cheapest way to go, or in the case of salesmen, they have many samples that they store in their auto trunk.
>>> But the people who live in these communities are still American citizens and participants in the national economy, and therefore deserve some transportation service. A train is the best way to provide that transportation to these communities because they can make brief stops along the way while planes can't. <<<
In sparsely settled areas, bus is better than train to take people to a place where they can catch an airplane for long distance, or a train for medium distance. The day of the whistlestop train service is over, but the Greyhound still stops at the general store in the small towns.
>>> You do realize that Amtrak's full name is the NATIONAL Rail Passenger Corporation. <<<
And the reason Congress is thinking of killing it altogether is that it is not effective as a national rail system. Some believe half a loaf is better than none.
>>> On the other hand, the long distance trains haven't seen any new equipment since Reagan was President and often have to "borrow" sleepers from one train to provide an adequate number of cars on another train. Which one sounds like it's been getting more money? <<<
The first question is which one is providing the service? When I want to go to San Francisco, or San Diego, I can find no convenient service from Los Angeles that even comes close to the speed of taking a bus, much less a plane. When I wanted to go to Santa Barbara, 100 miles away for a 10:00 A.M. appointment, I found that there was no train service that would get me there before 11:45 A.M. (probably because the long distance train originated in San Diego), and all service took about 2 3/4 hours, an average speed of 36 miles an hour. Greyhound could get me there by 9:20 A.M. 23.5 % cheaper and 15% faster. I would like to take a train rather than a bus, and I would even pay a premium over bus for the comfort, but I expect the speed to at least equal that of a bus and schedules that are frequent enough and convenient enough to use.
Tom
Since you mention DC-Richmond, let's look at what the obstacles are. ATK there is a contract 'guest' of CSXT. You may over the years have read about CSXT's less than stellar rep for on time performance for their freight customers. If CSX manages to allow the ATK trains to run on time--on schedules they approve--they get bonuses. Delays incur no givebacks. Surely in your operation, you would not wish such a situation, but RR routes are essentially "sole source". Only in recent weeks has CSX finished reconfiguring a major choke point near Alexandria which they had created in an economy move in the 70's. This time they got gov't money to restore what they had degraded. For ATK to run at faster speeds, CSX would have to agree to upgrade trackage--if the project were really done right IMHO it would include electrification. So lobby your legislators for the bucks.
I guess you didn't get NYC at its best.
If they ever move Amtrak to the Farley building, the NJT trains from Newark airport will remain where they are.
The cab driver must have decided you were non-violent. If he expressed those opinions to the wrong person he wouldn't be driving a cab any more.
The standing room on the NJT train must have been due to it being late, since it wasn't rush hour. But the terrorist destruction of the WTC has contributed by knocking out the PATH line from Newark to lower Manhattan.
Mid-day the express track on metro-north has 1 train per hour. If Amtrak can't schedule around that train they shouldn't be blaming anyone but themselves. If it was rush hour it could have been an issue, though even so MN trains using the express track are usually going pretty fast and move over to the local track when they are ready to make stops.
Well, write your Congresspeople with your complaints, because the lame design, deliberate underinvestment, nonexistent cooperation/coordination of services is neither a mystery nor an accident.
The conductor is wrong about the long distance trains(see earlier osts) ATK in general is trying to run a coherent national system on a starvation budget with constant operational sabotage from the operating/owning rail lines beyond the ex PRR lines they directly run.
Excellence requires dedication AND funding. This nation needs some major correction in its socio-economic policies.
He gave an explanation to all of these folks. It is YOUR tax dollars that have paid for Amtrak over the years. Right now, Amtrak isn't making a profit, but then again, that is because it is paying for a system in which 90% of the structure doesn't make money, and the remaining 10% does. The Mid Atlantic network, as he called it, has been footing the bill for the rest of the network. If your want better service he says, then contact your politicians and get them to force Amtrak to drop the Chicago to New Orleans or LA type stuff, and let the Mid Atlantic network keep the money it makes. Then it will make a profit and the money to enhance service.
Boy, is this guy selfish. Obviously, we have not been able to extract ourselves from history, nor Union policy, which can sometimes fail to see the big picture. He has an NEC-centric viewpoint because he thinks that it will be more money in his pocket if Amtrak drops its non-NEC trains. This is not the case. Much of Amtrak's business results from the long-distance trains feeding passengers to the "corridor" trains. In fact, if Amtrak were given only a modest portion of the funding allocated to air and highway travel, or had a trust wherein a yearly appropriations grovel were not necessary, new routes could be established to increase ridership, and the railway could be closer to "operational profitability" than the heavily subsidized airlines and highways. The other falicy, which no-one seems to be able to bury, is that the New Orleans-Chicago trains don't just serve those two endpoints! This is one way airlines and railways differ! They should not be compared in this way. Take the Three Rivers. There are towns in-between your Pittsburgh and New York which are served by Amtrak, but not by US Airways (at least not at a reasonable fare and schedule). If your Acela conductor is a typical Amtrak employee, can it be any wonder why the company is a shambles from top to bottom? This is almost as ignorant a mindset as that of your cab-driver, who should be glad it was not me to whom he spewed his mindless, fundamentalist dogshit. The only tip he'd get from me would be to get the hell out of the U.S.A., and if you gave him a monetary one, you should be ashamed of yourself!
Airlines are subsidized? Since when? The loan guarantee prgram is just that, a loan which must be paid back. And you have to remember that in commerce, "time is money and money is time". Do you believe that business travelers will tolerate taking a 11 hour train ride from Chicago to New Orleans, while a cheaper airliner(and planes ARE cheaper than trains nowadayw, otherwise they wouldn't have the business), when a flight can do it in 2 and a half? This is not about subsidies or how much money is spent on airports and roads. It is about convienience and practicality. Trains are simply too damned slow for long haul routes. My point I am making here is that Amtrak should be forced to concentrate it's efforts on short haul-high density corridors where roads and airlines are over capacity. Now where in the country is such an area? The most obvious one is the NEC. A second candidate is the midwest with Chicago at the center of a rail hub. And let's not forget the SF-LA-SD corridor as well. I know what you are thinking about the "little" towns you mentioned between Pittsburgh and New York before. Well, the fact is that most of the towns here in PA DO have good air service, and if not right at their town, then within a short driving distance. Can you say the same for trains? Amtrak serves Harrisburg 2 times a day right now. Even if it served it 10 times a day, you will not convince someone from State College to drive 100 miles for a damned train that will take 6 hours to get to New York as is. Face the fact that passenger train service can't go everywhere, but roads and airlines do. Amtrak needs to focus on what works, not what doesn't.
Airlines are subsidized? Since when? The loan guarantee prgram is just that, a loan which must be paid back. And you have to remember that in commerce, "time is money and money is time".
*sigh* Although the airlines themselves, the "operators" of one form of passenger transportation service, are not subsidized, the infrastructure they depend on (airports, air traffic control, etc.), are paid for by the taxpayers, and much more money is spent there than on trains. In fact, railroads must pay taxes on their real estate. Also, as I mentioned in my previous posting, the Chicago/New Orleans train does not just serve passengers travelling between those two cities. There are many stops in between. United serves Chicago very well at reasonable prices. It may not serve Springfield nearly as well.
Do you believe that business travelers will tolerate taking a 11 hour train ride from Chicago to New Orleans, while a cheaper airliner(and planes ARE cheaper than trains nowadayw, otherwise they wouldn't have the business), when a flight can do it in 2 and a half?
Of course not! If time is important enough to a business traveler, he should fly. But not everyone is a business traveler, and airlines do not serve non-business centers very well. And look where the emphasis on business travelers by the airlines as a main source of revenue has gotten us. Companies are cutting back on business travel as an economic measure, so that lifeline is drying-up. Meanwhile, leisure travelers are opting not to fly due to obvious fears. This is not to mention the annoyance of having to sit packed-in like a sardine -- at some airports (LaGuardia) the time spent with my knees in my chest on the tarmac is almost as long as the actual flight!
This is not about subsidies or how much money is spent on airports and roads. It is about convienience and practicality. Trains are simply too damned slow for long haul routes. My point I am making here is that Amtrak should be forced to concentrate it's efforts on short haul-high density corridors where roads and airlines are over capacity. Now where in the country is such an area? The most obvious one is the NEC. A second candidate is the midwest with Chicago at the center of a rail hub. And let's not forget the SF-LA-SD corridor as well.
Okay, let's say that the City Of New Orleans no longer goes between Chicago and New Orleans, but only between New Orleans and, say, Jackson, MI. That way you would lose all of your Memphis-New Orleans passengers, which, along with the Jackson-New Orleans passengers provided revenue.
I know what you are thinking about the "little" towns you mentioned between Pittsburgh and New York before. Well, the fact is that most of the towns here in PA DO have good air service, and if not right at their town, then within a short driving distance. Can you say the same for trains?
Those puddle-jumper routes are expensive. If more funding were given to increase capacity of the the Pennsy Main Line west of Harrisburg, Amtrak would be a competitor in those markets (but, of course, would still require government investment, as do highways and the air-travel infrastructure).
Amtrak serves Harrisburg 2 times a day right now.
Amtrak serves Harrisburg up to 20 times a day right now, if you count all east- and westbound service and is a prime example of how trains can compete and win against airlines. (Granted, there are only 4 trains serving the Main Line west of the state capital.) For me to travel between Harrisburg and New York, which I have done VERY often, it is both more comfortable and less expensive than US Airways Express. If the Main Line west of Harrisburg were upgraded to the same quality of service as the "Keystone" corridor (which would require, Hello!, funding), it would be able to provide a comfortable, reasonably-times alternative for Pittsburgh travelers and non-time constrained Chicago travelers.
Even if it served it 10 times a day, you will not convince someone from State College to drive 100 miles for a damned train that will take 6 hours to get to New York as is. Face the fact that passenger train service can't go everywhere, but roads and airlines do. Amtrak needs to focus on what works, not what doesn't.
I agree. Passenger trains would work much better if they served more areas of the country, not less. And passenger train service can go anywhere there are railroad tracks. Imagine how many students would utilize a State College-Philly service or State College-Scranton-Allentown-Easton-Phillipsburg-New York service or State College-Pittsburgh or State College-Erie service!
>>The first driver was an obvious Muslim, and said to me while driving that he "hated this country and gave praise to Allah on 911 <<
Did you leave him a tip?
I think now that I may have given him a few cents to even out things.
>>The first driver was an obvious Muslim, and said to me while driving that he "hated this country and gave praise to Allah on 911 <<
I would've immediately exited the cab without paying, and said to the SOB that I wasn't going to finance his murderous ideas.
The Achilles heal of the Newark Airtrain is the (in)frequency of the NJT connection.
'A British fellow standing next to me remarks to me, "You think this is bad, try Railtrack back in Brighton...".'
Well, yes. But the London-Brighton line (which serves London Gatwick Airport in much the same way as NJT serves Newark Airport) is actually *scheduled* to have a lot more trains per hour than the NJT routes through Newark Airport station are. Thus even if the trains are all running late, there should be plenty of them, unless the line is actually completely blocked by some failure (as sometimes happens).
'Right now there is a connector from Newark airport to the NEC, great. But what good is that if someone has to wait 30 minutes for a train to NYP? Why is there no dedicated line between the two, as in say London or Amsterdam?'
These aren't dedicated lines. For London Gatwick, see above. London Heathrow has a little branch off the main line out of London Paddington; the trains (one every 15 minutes) are dedicated to the airport, but the line isn't, most of the way. And the line through Schipol is a through route between Amsterdam and Rotterdam -- which has the advantage that you can take the train direct to lots of other cities as well as Amsterdam, but also means that lots of non-airport passengers are crowding the trains.
Ok, you are correct there about the Amsterdam and Gatwick trains not being on dedicated lines, but I do agree when you say that there should be higher frequency service to alleviate the problem. Perhaps the JFK airtrain link will be a littel better(when it opens).
The JFK Airtrain *will* be better because it connects at Jamaica with the LIRR and the subway, both of which are more frequesnt than NJT. At Newark, it is a pity that a direct link to the PATH couldn't be organised; under normal circumstances (when running to both 33rd St and WTC) the PATH provides the kind of high frequesncy service that you need for an airport.
What is the maximum speed that The "W" Train does when its going from Pacific St. - 36 St.? Becuase I've been on it, and its feels like we reached up to atleast 50 mph.
the absolute MAX i've seen it hit (looking at the speedo) was 46 MPH. That's rare for me though. I usually don't get over 40 MPH on my rides.
this is quite true, actually 4th avenue, the 60 st tunnel (N/R/W); 14 st tunnel (L); Q exp southbound just north of sheepshead; and occasionally the Cranberry tube (A/C) btwn Bwy-Nass and High (southbound preferably) are among the few spots where one can manage to get 50 or so out of a revenue train. so much for GT and Max speeds, huh
Also the 1 northbound from 116 to 125 -- it's on a slight downgrade despite appearances otherwise.
A 1 train can reach 50 anywhere on its route? Are you sure? Especially on such a small section (116-125) it seems unlikely
Absolutely sure. The R-62A speedometers are in plain view; go and see for yourself! When I posted my observation here, a former T/O on the line confirmed it.
The 1 may be a local but it doesn't plod.
I've done 45 on that stretch as a matter of course; occasionally a little faster.
As for 4th Ave - from Pacific to 36 St (SB) the max is about 38; heading the other way I can reach 49 at the same time I get to the GT marker (both on 68A equip).
I seen R32s go about 43mph, on that stretch going NB. Can't say for sure on R68/As.
Don't know if anyone posted about this yet:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/20/international/20CND-TRAIN.html
Long and the short of it is a fire broke out, and burned it's way back through the train. emergancy brakes either did not work or could not be pulled, so the train went a few miles, flaming through the night, before the crew realized what was happening at the back of the train (sounds like it was a pretty long train).
Very gruesome and very sad.
Did you not read the article?
"Flames consumed seven cars before train engineers realized what was happening and uncoupled the flaming cars from the front nine at this village some 50 miles south of the Egyptian capital."
It was only a 16 car train... considering the severity of how it was scorched, its hard to believe they didn't see something like that 9 cars back.
uhm, yes, i read it. - though you tell me the last time you saw a 16 car amtrak train carrying hundreds of passengers instead of mail... (i'm sure there's still a few... but they ain't all that common in these parts).
The State of New Jersey charters a 16 or so car train for a political junkit to Washington DC every year.
your point being?
Peace,
ANDEE
Amtrak runs 16 car trains.
Maybe the Egyptian Narional Railroad or whatnot should install some hotbox detectors.
Seems to have been started by a propane stove explosion in one of the cars. I doubt hotbox detectors would have helped here. Damned sad.
No no, they would have notified the Engineer of the confligration. even steam locomotives can set off HBD's.
Maybe ... but then again, one might also expect that the yellow glow from behind might be noticed as well. Fact is, Egypt doesn't exactly have a lot of money ... since the line was electrified, perhaps a better question might be why did they need stoves on the trains that ran on combustible fuel when they could have heated the tea with nichrome wire? But it's all academic ... replacing those dangerous stoves would be a whole lot less expensive I'd bet ...
This is the Third World. Lots of poor people wanting to travel on an underfunded, badly-equipped, out-of-repair system over-featherbedded with undertrained, underpaid and undermotivated employees. India has the same problem, tho' accidents of this magnitude seem not to have happened. Every so often you read of ferry accidents in Bangladesh where thousands drown. Third World expectations are different from those of us in the First World.
The network news reports suggest the Egyptian goverment expects riots over the incident. Certainly, some heads will roll.
I remember reading about a year ago that the Egyptian government had signed a deal with the Germans to do a major rehab on the line paralleling the Nile.
I'm trying to remember. What US city's streetcars ended up in Alexandria? Los Angeles'?
I'm trying to remember. What US city's streetcars ended up in Alexandria? Los Angeles'?
LA's cars went to Cairo, Alexandria got cars from Toronto.
Both cites trashed them. Alexandia actually stripped the PCC control equipment from many cars and installed K controllers and standard air brake stands.
It wasn't a heating stove, it was a cooking stove probably brought along by a passenger. I got the scoop from ABCNews.
Ah! VERY different ... I could only go by the limited information I had from teevee ... and yes, I had heard it was a stove for making tea and food of some sort but the story I caught suggested that it was part of the train's facilities rather than a "carry-on" ...
According to CNBC, the cause was a cookstove which used bottled gas which exploded. The rules forbid the use of the things, but the passengers bring them on the trains anyway, and now everybody sees why such rules are in place, at the cost of so many lives.
I can't believe the extremely graphic photos Yahoo has posted of this wreck. There aren't even any "Editor's Warnings" in the captions.
This question was posted in the Straphangers Campaign website.
The questioner wants to know why were the City Hall and South Ferry stations built as loops.
I was not exactly sure since I have never seen anything doucmented but I guessed and said that there was (and still isn't) physical room at those locations for a regular terminal station.
How close did I get? Can anyone oprovide additional info?
I think it was so the trains can be turned faster. Actually I think you need more room for the loop stations, than normal terminal stations.
The CTA in Chicago has built loop turnarounds at several of the terminals to turn trains more quickly:
Howard (for Red Line trains)
Forest Park and 54/Cermak (Blue Line)
And, of course, the Loop itself.
In Boston, I know that Bowdoin on the Blue Line has or had a turnaround loop, as did most of the terminals on the Green Line (remember that most of the Boston PCCs were single-ended).
Using a loop, the trains can be turned more quickly and the operator does not have to change ends. It surprises me that there are only two loops in the NY subway system.
-- Ed Sachs
Keep in mind that one of the loops has two tracks, with the 5 on the inside and the 1 (in normal circumstances) on the outside.
I really hope the South Ferry loop isn't replaced with a two-track stub terminal. That would permanently doom the 1 to its current level of service.
A loop is more efficient than a stub terminal.
However, you need more area for a loop. The only two loops built on the subway were South Ferry (inner and outer) under Battery Park, and City Hall (under City Hall Park). Hudson Terminal and PATH were both loops, but they owned a several block area.
Since, in general, buildings in NYC go down to bedrock, you can't build under them. This would make a loop in most instances an impossible situation.
"Since, in general, buildings in NYC go down to bedrock, you can't build under them. This would make a loop in most instances an impossible situation."
Most terminals are in the outer boroughs, where buildings don't usually go down to bedrock. But the real estate issue was probably significant there too. It's not easy to build under an existing building that doesn't go down to bedrock; it's probably cheaper to condemn it, which then raises more issues. So what the IND did at Hillside Ave (multiple relay tracks) was probably the best solution with the space.
And of course many terminals are els, where a loop would have meant significant condemnation of houses.
Most terminals are in the outer boroughs, where buildings don't usually go down to bedrock
Also, most of those terminals in the outer boroughs are on elevated lines.
Philly makes a very effective use of a loop at 69th st. for it's El cars. They had the room, so they did it. Part of the loop is for trains to go to the storage yard, also.
Chuck Greene
Yes, they do, but: 1) The station's not elevated, it's in more of a cut, and 2) There was really no other option. Stub tracks would tie up yard movements. Still, better overall. There's a new crossover being installed east of 69th St. in the reverse direction of the original (and remaining) one (like the double crossovers seen along the route 100 line, such as near Radnor, or at Scenic Road (Route 101) or Chestnut Hill West (R8)
Frankford has a loop also. It just travels all the way around the yard and shops.
More effective is the loop at Fern Rock on the Broad Street Line. Originally, this was a stub track terminal, but the loop was added during RailWorks. (1991-1993 Regional Rail bridge reconstruction project that brought about the relocating of Temple University station, downsize of North Broad, and closure of Logan, Tabor and Fern Rock in favor of Fern Rock T.C.) The trains, having both local and express service using Fern Rock (this may have been a RailWorks add, as in 1990, express trains turned back at Olney Terminal) were expected to have some delays crossing in front of each other during peak hours - and southbound trains ad the right-of-way. However, the overcrowding brought on by extra express (including temporary Saturday expresses) and the express Ridge trains clogged the drain, as it were, even during the light midday hours. The loop travels around the shops and yard before meeting with the original former stub tracks at the east end of the platform.
Even with the loop, it used to get crowded with three levels of service up there at once. That's why, after the short 10/27/97 to 12/22/97 stint of Ridge Local service to Girard or Erie (Fern Rock occasionally - this was an answer to increased commuter students at Temple University, something the normal Local service, as well as both C bus routes, and the 3, 23, 39 and 47 buses AND Regional Rail could handle), the new (and current) Ridge express only operates to Fern Rock at times when the Ridge runs and the express doesn't (i.e. weeknights from 7PM to last trip and all Saturday trains), turning back at Olney otherwise.
My point? A loop is genearlly used for turnbacks when stub tracks would prove to be a time consuming venture. Such as City Hall in NYC. The station was the last stop, but a stub turnback at a single track location is just begging for delays. And Fern Rock had double stubs, so you can imagine how bad it was and how much worse a single track would be.
Most buildings don't go anywhere near the bedrock. The only one to do so was the late, great WTC.
But the bedrock is no problem for subway builders, the water tunnels are built through deep bedrock, and modern boring machines can do it rather easily. Imagine building the lines where you wanted... after all the city can just tell the land owners that their property doesn't extend down into the bedrock, and then the city is free to build there NIMBYs be damned!
Elias
>>> the city can just tell the land owners that their property doesn't extend down into the bedrock <<<
Who gave the city that power? Not in this country.
Tom
How high do your air rights go?
Can you stop airplanes from going over head?
Mineral rights are one thing, and Not many land owners own them any more. If they are needed for a tunnel, the rights can be obtaind / condemned, and the value given them would likely be nominal at best (if any) since the surface enhancements would not be affected.
You gotta give the city a break, If transit is needed then property or property rights can be condemned. After all it's not like Robert Moses wiping out whole neighborhoods to build a parkway.
Elias
>>> The only two loops built on the subway were South Ferry (inner and outer) under Battery Park, and City Hall (under City Hall Park <<<
You are forgetting the biggest one of all, the BMT's Nassau Loop.
Tom
You're forgetting an even bigger one: Coney Island loop. (From DeKalb via Brighton to Stillwell, then back up the Sea Beach or West End.) So it's never been used in passenger service, except possibly as an occasional GO -- big deal.
How is it more efficient to have a loop, since it could tie up the (1) and (9, if resurrected) north of the WTC area. Besides with the South Ferry Branch for the 7th Ave line closed, can't they modify the South Ferry Station to become a bi-track terminal in one platform like most other terminals right now. That's of course if funding allows so.
A stub terminal requires that when a train reaches the end of the line:
1. The train operator must switch ends (or switch operators).
2. Because there is a wall at the end of the platform (unless you have stub tracks extending further), the approach speed to the terminal is restricted for safety reasons.
3. Either on arrival or on departure, the train must switch tracks. A crossover operation effectively blocks both tracks for the time necessary to accomplish. With 10 car trains, and a 15 mph limit (likely), this takes a good deal of time.
On a loop, the operator just keeps going.
If you were really running 90 second headways, a stub terminal would be very difficult to pull off.
Let's ignore 911 for a while and discuss with the loop
First of all, the headways in the South Ferry loop is about 3-4 minutes per departure. Then, I would say the South Ferry Station could very well tie up the local service north of Chambers St.
You're missing the point. A loop can turn more trains per hour than a two-track stub. A two-track stub would permanently cap the line at 15 tph or so.
And your numbers are incorrect, too. At no point in recent history has the 1/9 run at greater than 15 tph.
What would make a loop even more efficient would be to have a split into two tracks at the station area. This would allow for some respacing to occur if there were bunching.
On the City Hall loop, where there is a bunching problem, they let one or two trains bypass Brooklyn Bridge (and possibly other stops) to speed them up. With a stub terminal, you have to find a way to keep passengers out.
I agree.
Hmmm, how about this. The South Ferry loop already has two loops. The inner one is used by the 5 off-peak, but rush hours it's not used. Why not send an occasional peak 1 train through the inner loop, bypassing South Ferry (so the stop after Rector would be Rector)? It would require the installation of two crossovers -- right now, 5 trains can switch to the outer loop but 1 trains can't switch to the inner loop.
Because of the two remaining stations, South Ferry sees a much higher usage. If the trains were bunching due to a late running 1/9, it would be sent express from SF to Chambers, while the next one would depart right behind it making all stops. By the time the second train left Chambers, they would be spaced correctly.
At South Ferry (forget 9/11), do they platform the front of the train, let half the train unload/load, and then move the train to allow the rest of the train to platform and unload, or if your destination being South Ferry, do you have to make sure you are in the right car before you get there.
Numerous announcements, and signs in many languages, that if you're not in the front half of the train you can't get out at South Ferry.
Thanks, I haven't used that end of the line that often or in a while (even before 9/11) so I didn't remember.
Granted.
But if the TA's scheduling people ever come to their senses and decide to improve service on the line, and South Ferry itself turns out to be a bottleneck (dwell times are slightly longer there, due to the gap fillers), it might be worth considering sending occasional trains past SF on the inner loop. SF itself would still see the same service it sees today (whoops, before 9/11), but at least the rest of the line would have more service. (As busy as SF is, the local stations between 42 and 96 are even busier, although I'll grant that much of that is off-peak.)
Incidentally, were late night 1 trains ever authorized to bypass Cortlandt and Rector in order to catch a soon-to-depart ferry? Passengers to bypassed stations would be instructed to simply stay on through the loop (which would be faster than waiting 20 minutes for the next 1). Passengers waiting to board at Cortlandt and Rector southbound would be stranded, but I doubt that would affect many people. (Then again, my last time in the WTC, in late August, two tourists asked me if the subway entrance they were pointing to would take them to South Ferry train. I pointed out that it was a ten-minute walk, but they insisted. A minute later, they reemerged, complaining that their MetroCard didn't work. How much do you want to bet they both tried to enter with a single Fun Pass?)
Boy, you're asking for a lot - more service AND a new switch. One or the other maybe, but both? Probably not in our collective lifetimes.
I've never heard of a midnight 1 bypassing Cortlandt and Rector, but that doesn't mean it has never happened (someday, remind me to tell my midnight at South Ferry stories). As for the last question, I don't take sucker bets.
"A two-track stub would permanently cap the line at 15 tph or so."
Times Square on the 7, with its long tail tracks, handles nearly 30 tph.
And where would you put long tail tracks at South Ferry?
"And where would you put long tail tracks at South Ferry?"
One choice would be under South St. Another choice, which would be less convenient for ferry commuters but would allow an easy connection to the R, would be under Water Street. It all depends what kind of a curve the new tracks would make as they enter under Battery Park from Greenwich St.
Actually, I still haven't heard anyone say what the benefits of a stub terminal would be, other than a connection with the 2nd Ave line, or with the R (which can be done much cheaper at the WTC site). Is it really that burdensome for South Ferry passengers to be in the front 5 cars?
Hold it. The loop arrangement doesn't foreclose the possibility of lengthening the platform. At least ten cars can fit between the back end of the platform and the switch from the inner track, and there's some space in front of the platform as well. That leaves room for a platform over 15 cars long -- that's more than sufficient considering that the other platforms on the line are only 10 cars long.
Another counterexample from here in Stockholm: Kungsträdgården, a two-track stub terminal without long tail tracks, handles 20 tph in the rush (two lines, each running 10 tph, both terminate at KTG in the peaks).
This can actually work, but it requires T/O discipline in leaving on time (otherwise, small delays quickly propagate and cause backups farther up the line), and help with charging up the trains immediately after they come in helps (we didn't have it yesterday afternoon -- grrr -- but I got in and out on time anyway, heh).
In the peaks, KTG is the busiest terminal on the subway in Stockholm. None of the other terminals or turnback points handles as many trains during peak hours.
Regards,
Tim
Both the Broad Street Subway and the Market St El have loops at one of their ends (Fern Rock and 69th St.), although the 69th St. loop is not in revenue service.
Right... counting the loop around the shops at Frankford, as I said before, that makes two on that line.
All the Subway-Surface lines use loops (they also all use single-end cars, though there's an emergency stub track at Juniper/13th St.)
The route 101 and 102 loop as opposed to stub/crosover at 69th St.
Amazingly, Paoli on the R5 had a loop... I think. It looked like one of the tracks descended into the ground, and at about the same spot on a lateral, a track emerged and eventually merged with the main tracks - perhaps the track looped under the through tracks to Malvern.
More amazing (and disappointing), WMATA designed their system with no loops at all... I could see one being used at Franconia-Springfield, unless they built beyond it.
I believe one or both ends of the Cleveland subway line has a loop. Never been there, but photographs made it look like one end at least had a loop.
The Los Angeles Blue Line has a loop at one end -- in Long Beach. But as slow as they do things on the Blue Line, it wouldn't have made any difference to have a stub end terminal there anyway.
re Chicago loops: Didn't they remodel the Evanston terminal in Wilmette to a loop? Also, considering history, let's not forget the Stock Yards loop, and terminal loops for the Garfield Park line, one on the surface pre-1953, the other on a timber trestle over the CA&E tracks, post-1953. Oh, and Ravenswood in early years had a terminal loop.
n Boston, I know that Bowdoin on the Blue Line has or had a turnaround loop,
You omitted Maverick and Dudley.
> In Boston, . . . the Green Line
But isn't the Green Line in Boston actually more of a trolley than a train?
- Lyle Goldman
But isn't the Green Line in Boston actually more of a trolley than a train?
And are you more a man than a person?
I think it was so the trains can be turned faster. Actually I think you need more room for the loop stations, than normal terminal stations.
You hit on both of the major issues with a loop, both pro and con.
Loops enable trains to be turned faster and with a smoother flow of traffic in the location (CBD) where stub ends are least efficient. They are a better solution, operationally, than the major alternative, through routing through the CBD between outlying terminals (Bronx to Coney Island, for example).
Biggest negative of a loop is that they require more turnaround room, especially difficult when you have a densely packed CBD. Both the City Hall and South Ferry loops take advantage of open land. (City Hall Park and Battery Park).
Or you can go the BMT's way and consider large loops, e.g., Nassau Street, which by its original plan would have permitted three loops through the Downtown district: Manhattan Bridge-Montague Street tunnel (completed), Williamsburg Bridge-Brooklyn Bridge (not) and Manhattan Bridge-Brooklyn Bridge (not).
When was the last elevated train run on the Brooklyn Bridge, and after the trolly stopped, when did they remove the track?
They stopped running el trains across the Brooklyn Bridge after the Sands St. station (Brooklyn end of the bridge) was destroyed by a fire in 1942. The station was never rebuilt. Service had already ceased from the Fulton St. and Fifth Ave. lines, so the Brooklyn Bridge was serving only Myrtle Ave. and Lexington Ave. trains. This service was cut back to the Bridge St. station. A second entrance was added to that station at Jay St. (one block west, west end of the platform) to allow an easy transfer to the IND for a continuation of the trip into Manhattan.
After the el trains stopped running and the el terminal at Park Row was demolished, the trolleys moved to the former el tracks (where the left hand traffic lane is today, nearest the middle of the bridge) to allow 2 lanes in each direction for auto traffic without having to contend with streetcars (essentially, the trolleys had a private right of way across the bridge). Trolley service across the Brooklyn Bridge ended in 1952 or 53, after which the bridge was rebuilt for three traffic lanes in each direction.
-- Ed Sachs
Sometimes I work at the High Street Station on the A line. Everyday I goi upstairs and look at Cadman Plaza and the Park and think to myself:
"That used to be Sands Street!"
I checked in PCC from Coast to Coast and found that trolley service over the Brooklyn Bridge ended on March 6, 1950.
March 5, 1944 was the end of elevated operation, at which time the trolleys were shifted to the former el tracks. 1950 was the end of trolley operation. The latter was fascilitated by Robert Moses' desire to remake the Brooklyn Bridge in his own image.
The ultimate "large loop" is found in London -- the Circle line is just that.
And it was an even larger loop when certain trains operated Gloucester Rd - Earl's Court - Kensington Addison Rd (now Olympia) - Uxbridge Rd (now demolished) - Latimer Rd
The MTA supposedly runs the current capital program until 2004, what happens after that? No more Renovating hooplah? No more subway car and bus purchases? Can some one tell me please!!!
- R62's rock!
I dont work for the MTA but I presume they start one for 2008.
The MTA has had many Capital Programs over the years. That's just the end of the current one. If history provves correct. They will then have the next one.
Or if we don't have the money (which seems to be likely with the current budget problems), we'll just sit around and let the subways rot for a little while.
Wouldn't that be a shame after all the progress the subway has made in the past decade. Thank Osama again.............
> Thank Osama
We can't; we can't find him. If we could, I'd thank him with some well-placed bullets!
- Lyle Goldman
The MTA does capital planning in five-year sets. The next Capital Plan is 2005-9
Shades of Stalin ... Comrades, is "five year plan" ... :)
Is Amtrak or Any other Rail company making any more High Speed Trains in the USA?
Go the the Siemens website and there is a link to a Midwestern high speed rail system plan, with a hub in Chicago. There are several such regional plans. I think there are still schemes being worked up for a triangle in Texas linking Dallas-Ft.Worth, Houston, and San Antonio; a California system connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco, and some others in other regions. I'm not sure how many such plans there are, though, or what their chances of being made reality are, either.
Mark
I also saw a picture of a high-speed non-electric locomotive being tested in Pueblo, CO, in Trains magazine. It looked just like the Acela power car, except the blue and red painted areas were reversed. Bombardier is looking to market this loco to areas outside the Northeast who want high-speed rail.
It's great to see some progress in getting faster rail services to the midwest cities. They should really consider making Cleveland and maybe even Pittsburgh a priority line as well(Unless the maglev gets built, in which case all bets are off then). You mentioned Texas is considering a triangle network...they attempted to do just that back in the early nineties I believe, but it was stopped by none othe than Southwest airlines, who felt(correctly) that it would take business away from them. They also were concerned about the safety of the french built TGV trains, and wanted them to be "Americanized". I would be very fearful of the airlines in this case, particularly on the Detriot to Chicago segment. You have 4 major airlines doing that route right now, and they have a huge amount of lobbying power. While it would be great to have 150mph trains or 250mph maglevs plying that route someday, I wouldn't hold my breath for it.
If one of those airlines were smart, they'd build the Chicago-Detroit line themselves, and link it directly to the big airports in both cities, and operate it as a commuter link to their long-distance flights, law permitting.
Mark
If one of those airlines were smart, they'd build the Chicago-Detroit line themselves, and link it directly to the big airports in both cities, and operate it as a commuter link to their long-distance flights, law permitting.
Oh man, you have no idea how these companies are run. They are hand to mouth type of operations, never keeping more than $1 billion cash reserves on hand on average. The expense of building and maintaining a high speed line is outrageous compared to running a standard fleet airline, so for them it is not an option. Look at what's happening at United right now. They are facing Ch 11 in the face, while giving $1.6 billion to their mechanics in retro pay. No one has the cash to build new rails except the federal gov't.
Amtrak's only plan right now is to survive with what they have now!! Once they are on more stabile grounds as far as money and funding, then they can consider more high speed service. Right now they are conerned with their high speed trip towards total bankrupcy...rather trying to slow that high speed trip down a bit.
That`s exactly the problem we have in Phoenix now. The only way that we would be able to get Commuter or Intercity rail service would be funding by local and federal government. And I don`t see that happening anytime soon.
Florida D.O.T. is still in the planning phase of what is supposed to be Florida's high speed state rail system, to be known as FOX (Florida Overland Express), to run from Miami to Orlando, possibly on to Tallahassee and Jacksonville, planned to be pretty much straight, specially built R.O.W. (like Japan and Germany) to each location. It is, last I heard, only on the drawing board, no finalized plans have been said of yet. Plus there is word of high speed systems to be created for Texas to, and Midwestern corridors out of Chicago (also drawing board plans, nothing finalized) As far as these being run by Amtrak.....lol let's hope Amtrak survives, because right now with the exception of the Northest Corridor, Chicago-Detriot corridor, and the L.A. - San Diego services, Amtrak's future is looking mighty grim!!
"Plus there is word of high speed systems to be created for Texas to, and Midwestern corridors out of Chicago (also drawing board plans, nothing finalized)"
Texas' plan is only on the drawing board, but actual physical work has been and is being done on the Midwest plan. The signaling system and other improvements needed to increase the speed limit to 110mph are essentially complete on the line from Chicago to Detroit and are being installed on the line from Chicago to Saint Louis. (Mind you, neither line will be 110mph for the entire route. But a fast stretch of track speeds the entire trip.)
>>The
signaling system and other improvements needed to increase the speed limit to 110mph are essentially complete
Now I'm depressed. To think that 110 mph, which trains could easily do in 1900 with steam power, is considered high speed in this county is sad. I guess we have to walk before we can, for want of a better word, fly.
Mark
O.K., Shinkansen or TGV it isn't, but they required completely new ROW to be built. But 110 mph isn't so bad, if it is sustained over fair distances. And while steam trains *could* do 110 if they had suitable track to do it on, they mostly didn't. It isn't fair to compare an occasional one-off record-breaking run with a speed that is routinely achieved by dozens of trains day after day.
"To think that 110 mph, which trains could easily do in 1900 with steam power, is considered high speed in this county is sad. I guess we have to walk before we can, for want of a better word, fly."
That's the idea. It's called incremental high-speed. When political support for high-speed rail is not universal or certain, you make what improvements you can with the money you can get.
The good thing about using existing right of way and tracks is that, with the exception of installing the signaling system, it's all cumulative. You can double-track 20 miles this year, and another 20 miles next year with the new budget. You can close 10 grade crossings this year, and another 15 when you can afford to. Each improvement shaves minutes off the trip time, or increases the on-time percentage by a couple of points, or both. Those minutes or percentages add up, mabybe not with the "sexiness" of suddenly dropping a line from 5 hours to 2.5 hours, but with greater certainty that the improvements you're doing NOW can't be undone BECAUSE they are modest and not radical.
Want to be really depressed? Vind a late 50's early sixties Trains Magazine issue with then annual speed survey. The ONLY trains not VASTLY slower are on the NEC. Everything else crawls in comparison--20th Cent Ltd NY Chgo 15-1/2--16 hs. Todays Lake Shore20 or so and on time is a joke.
Here in North Carolina, they are proposing a High Speed Rail like that would take you from Raleigh, NC to Charlotte, NC. Of course points North of Raleigh, NC like Richmond would partcipate and points south of Charlotte would particpate as well. But this idea is still in the drawing board phase. Now with AMTRAK suffering, its all up in the air.
Frank D
"But this idea is still in the drawing board phase."
Actually, it's more concrete than that. Virginia and North Carolina have been making improvements to the lines involved for a few years now. IIRC, they haven't taken the big step of installing the necessary signal system, but they have been performing track improvements and improving or closing grade crossings. North Carolina in particular has been aggressive, especially with grade crossings, as you can see at:
http://www.bytrain.org/redbarinfo/news/
"Now with AMTRAK suffering, its all up in the air."
Actually, likely not. Amtrak's threat was that if they didn't get $1.2billion they'd shut down the long-distance trains. That doesn't include the NEC and it doesn't include any trains subsidized by individual states (like California's three corridors or New York's Empire Corridor or North Carolina's Carolinian and Piedmont trains) or groups of states (like Washington and Oregon with their Cascades corridors). Amtrak will not cut state-sponsored trains because the money that comes with them is actually positive cash flow that they use to pay their bills for the entire system.
So long as the Southeast states continue to cooperate, and can get their legislatures to chip in to pay Amtrak enough money when the time comes, Amtrak will be quite happy to accept the money and run the Southeast trains.
Am I imagining this or did these cars have back lit ad signs, up until the time they had blue doors. Did they rip all that out when they rebuilt them?
Yes, the backlighted ad panels on the R32 MkII, R40, R40M AND R42 were all removed during GOH. The only fleet to retain them was the R38.
wayne
I thought so, why did they remove the backlit ad signs?
Probably to save money on lighting.
- Lyle Goldman
As I remember, the trains with the backlit signs always seemed to be gloomier than those with "regular" lighting.
Rush hour and Middays
1-7 Avenue local, 242 street-South Ferry
2-7 Avenue express, 241 street-Flatbush Avenue. Skip/Stop express from 241 street to 3 Avenue
3-7 Avenue express, 148 street-New Lots Avenue. Some trains stop at Utica Avenue
4-Lexington Avenue express, Woodlawn-Utica Avenue. Skip/stop express from Woodlawn-125 street
5-Lexington Avenue express, Dyre Avenue or 241 street-Bowling Green. Skip/Stop express from Gun Hill road or 180 street-3 Avenue
6-Lexington Avenue local, Pelham Bay Park-City Hall(Brooklyn Bridge). Skip Stop express from Pelham bay Park-138 Street
7-Flushing local, Times Square-Main Street. Skip/stop express from Queensboro Plaza-Willets Point
9-7 Avenue local, 242 Street-South Ferry. Skip/stop express from 242 Street-137 street
Evenings and Weekends
2-Local in Bronx
4-All stops in Bronx
5- Dyre Avenue-Bowling Green
6-Local from Pelham Bay Park-City Hall
7-Local from Main street-Times Square
9-No service
Nights
2-Local From 241 Street-FlatBush Avenue
3-Express from 148 Street-Utica Avenue
4-Local From 125 street-Woodlawn
5-Local From Dyre Avenue to 3 Avenue. Express from 3 Avenue to Franklin Avenue. local From Franklin AVenue to NewLots Avenue
Why so much skip stop service where there is already good express service, such as on the 5 and 6 in the Bronx, and the 7 in Queens? It seems that these express services, despite 3 tracks, work better than skip stop would be (though maybe skip-stop could work in the opposite direction, outbound in morning, in-bound in the afternoon and evening).
Why this facination with skip-stop on lines that have 3 tracks (i.e., the 2/5 and the 6)?
You use skip stop when there are only 2 tracks because it's the only way to speed up service; you can't run an express because it would catch up with a local.
But when you have 3 tracks, you can run expresses in the rush hour direction on the center track, IF (big if) the traffic warrants it.
The problem with skip stop is that most stations end up with only half as many trains, and you don't get the travel time reduction that an express gives you. In the case of the 2, you're reducing from 12 tph to 6 on each of the two versions, so the average headway increases from 5 minutes to 10 minutes. I doubt you'll make up enough time to justify that.
I sort of made a mistake. By Skip stop I meant 2 tracks local, one express. My mistake
Why not have the 5 run to Brooklyn during non-peak times?
What!?
Why does the "C" Train have 8 Cars instead of 10?
Less ridership?
nah, just cheeper to run
Tradition, tradition!:-)
So the train can bust into the station like the former "AA" line.. heeheheeeheee.
N Broadway Line
I think people use it for shorter trips and transfers to the A. I use it daily from 14th to Chambers and almost always get a seat. Amazing how many riders get out of the C and switch to the A at 14th or W4th just to avoid 1 extra stop (spring st) when going downtown to Chambers or Broadway- Nassau. Precious minutes I guess.
This is what I have personally and repeatedly witnessed, during morning rush:
Whenever a downtown "A" and "C" train pull into Chambers Street at about the same time, the "A" always leaves first, even if the "C" had arrived first. While I do not use these lines every day, the above has occured too often for me not to notice.
From another post here a while back, I remember reading that unlike most lines, the "C" does not have its own manager, and thus can be more easily picked on in this manner. I do -not- however know this for a fact.
Why do lines have priority over other lines?
Normally, the schedule should prevail -- whichever line is scheduled to leave first should do so.
In a case where two lines meet at a station (on different tracks), merge, and later diverge, some degree of precedence should go toward the less popular line (the C, in this case). That way, those traveling along the shared portion (from Canal to Hoyt, say) would be conditioned to use the C rather than the more crowded A.
If the two lines merge just before a station, the one that becomes less popular after the divergence point should go first, so its passengers can transfer to the other line. For instance, before 7/22, the B and D/Q merged on the approach to the Manhattan Bridge. Seemingly invariably, if I was at the railfan window of a Q (which had only four stops past the divergence), we'd be held to allow a B to cross in front of us, and those of us going to the more popular CPW line would have to wait for the next D in line.
There are other factors as well, but I don't see the point in giving one line absolute priority over another under all circumstances.
That's true most of the time, but I have occasionaly ran across the platform at Canal from the C to the A only to watch the C leave first. Some times they announce which one is leaving first. But most times not.
I was told that there was always two C trains to an A train. If they really had this frequency the Fulton St Line would be good. But as it stands now, you would see about 2-3 A trains at Rockaway Ave in both directions, before a C would arrive. I think they should cut the cars down to 6 cars and use the extra sets to provide more trains per hour, or send the E train to Lefferts Blvd.
Frank D
"I was told that there was always two C trains to an A train. "
The published schedule confirms your actual observations. In rush hour, the A is 12 to 15 tph, while the C is 6.
The trouble with having 6 car trains and then more of them is (a) higher crew costs, so the TA is tempted to cut them back again and (b) the horrible run to the train when it's in the middle of the station but the entrances are at the ends. This is the case with various C platforms like 14th St.
Off-peak (i.e., most of the time), the A and C both run about 6 tph.
"I was told that there was always two C trains to an A train. If they really had this frequency the Fulton St Line would be good. But as it stands now, you would see about 2-3 A trains at Rockaway Ave in both directions, before a C would arrive. I think they should cut the cars down to 6 cars and use the extra sets to provide more trains per hour, or send the E train to Lefferts Blvd."
The reason, the "A" goes to three different terminus.
N Bwy Line
Because it always has...........??????????????
As I am too young to remember the JFK express, I was wondering how it ran making very few stops on its way out to the airport. Wouldn't it get backed up behind regular trains?
It started at 57th St / 6th Av making stops at 47-50th, 42nd St, 34th St. It would then go express to W 4th making a stop there. It would then switch to the 8th Av tracks and go out over the Fulton St line (via the Express track) to Howard Beach. The only stop in Brooklyn was Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Didn't it stop at Jay Street. I used that station every day in the late 80's and I remember the JFK going through there. I can't for the life of me remember if I remember it stopping or just going throught the station.
That I understand, but wouldn't it be backed up behind A trains? How did they deal with that to make it any more advantageous than taking an A?
The A only ran express in Brooklyn during rush hours. Yes, it did sometimes get stuck then. At other times, it had free reign on the express tracks.
Also, it was probably timed to merge with the A line just ahead of an A train, giving it some breathing room. The main advantage, though, was that the premium fare led to less crowding, even during rush hour.
The JFK Express ran very infrequently, so it really didn't get too backed up behind other trains. And true, the "A" ran express ONLY during rush hrs in Brooklyn in those days. Along 6 Av, the JFK ran on the Local "F" tracks to W4 St. It used to be so annoying in the PM rush waiting on a crowded platform at 47-50 for a downtown "F" for so long, only to have the JFK come in, stop, and just take 3 or even no passengers and leave!!!!!!!! tony
Would northbound JFK Expresses pick up passengers in Manhattan?
NOPE!!!!!!! Tony
That's mean! As long as it wasn't crowded, why not let local passengers ride a few stops?
After the 63rd Street line opened, the JFK Express was made officially available to regular (non-airport) passengers for the northernmost few stops at off-hours (nights only, I think) -- that way, the TA didn't have to run an off-hour Queensbridge shuttle.
After the 63rd Street line opened, the JFK Express was made officially available to regular (non-airport) passengers for the northernmost few stops at off-hours (nights only, I think) -- that way, the TA didn't have to run an off-hour Queensbridge shuttle.
Huh? IIRC, the JFK Express always stopped at 57th Street. Are you saying they ran it out to Queensbridge ???
Yes. (It couldn't terminate at 57 if other trains needed to go through.) The line was cancelled a few months after the connection opened, so this was only in effect briefly.
My aunt has a pamphlet for the 63rd Street line from when it first opened, and yes, the JFK Express is shown stopping at Lex/63, Roosevelt Island, and Queensbridge. In fact, I have a picture of the entrance sign outside the Roosevelt Island station that has B, Q, and a blank third circle where the JFK Express bullet would be.
Yes, from late October 1989 to it's elimination in mid-April 1990, the JFK express went to Queensbridge.
They did in 1989-90, during the late evenng hours between the end of Q service to 57th St. & the beginning of late night F service to 57th St. For a few hours, the JFK Exp was the only train to serve 57th St & later, 63rd St. All regular fared passangers were booted off at 47-50th.
I hated seeing JFK expresses with 2 EMPTY cars whiz through Fulton St. stations during the AM rush. Seemed like a waste to me.
It also ran on 2-3 TPH at most. Most of it's life, it had free reign on the Fulton express tracks. And to correct some mistakes mentioned in this thread, it stopped ONLY at Jay St. in Brooklyn, and it ran on the local tracks on 6th Ave, but it skipped 23rd & 14th.
Actually it only stopped at Jay Street..
ECU Pirate
It stopped at Jay St. On the 8th ave tracks [A train]. It did`nt get backed up because these trains were given priority and in Bklyn. during non-rush hours there was no express service in Bklyn, so clear runs could be made from Hoyt and Schemerhorn to Euclid Ave before any other traffic was encountered.
When all day express service was instituted on Fulton St. in late 88, problems did occur, especially around Euclid Ave. I think this, as well as low patronage, is what finally killed the line.
[Wouldn't it get backed up behind regular trains?]
Actually, the A, C, E, and F would routinely get backed up behind the JFK Express. As a "premium" service, the "Bird" (as the tower staff called it) got priority over EVERYTHING else.
How many trips did a crew have to make on the JFK Express? Was it a senior line? (Giving its' express profile, it sure seemed like it to me!!) By the way does anyone, who might have worked on the E when it ran from 179th to Far Rockaway years and years ago, know how many trips a crew would have to make on that? (Call me crazy, but I would have loved that run!!)
How would you have felt about the rush hour C from Bedford Park Boulevard to Rockaway Park, local all the way?
I love working on lines that require WORK!! I wouldn't mind it, especially having worked on the R running from Jamaica Center to 95th Street so many times when that G.O. was in effect!!
Well if you like the lines you have to work you can alway pick the No.2 Line 2 trips Local from E 241 to Flatbush 1Hr 35 Mins running time but will turn out to be 1 Hr and 40 Mins with all the delays.
I'm in the B division, and I got two words to say in regards to your "2 Line with all the delays"......QUEENS DIVISION!! Enough said!!
The Queens Division is synonymous with delays, and very extensive ones at that, affecting many lines (like working an E local at 12:55am, my last trip, talk about having my late clear all filled out, and being held at Woodhaven Blvd because you got several trains, if I remember right, another E, a last R of the night, a last V running late, and 2 Gs sitting up ahead of you waiting to get into Continental Ave...all at just a few minutes before 1 AM, mind you!!) This division is work, lemme tell you!! Every day and night something happens to tie it all up, and it happens almost like clockwork!! And some of the fascinating reroutes you can end up on is phenominal (ex. F to C.I. via the G Crosstown and vice versa, F to C.I. via 8th Ave and vice versa, G running express, V to 2nd Ave via 63rd, V running express, F to Stillwell via Broadway and the West End, which while working an N job, and approaching 36th Street in the AMs I saw personally!! F to Stillwell via the Brighton Line due to one of the many anthrax scares which broke out in the division, mainly at 34/6.....believe me I can keep on naming others!!)
My head is spinning after reading that. In the A Div. you only have 2 ways Bway or Lex.
Thats right!! Only the 2/5 trains can get rerouted in the A division. (Rush hours mostly for now.)
My No.5 train have gotten rerouted to the 7 Ave Line. The Tower had me go Local all the way up and the No.5 behind behind passed me on the Express. That got me pissed. Then to really get my blood boiling they put the No.2 train behind me on the Express from 72 to 96. I did leave 96 Street before him bacause he had a No.3 sitting at 96 Street.
Imagine how confused the passengers must have been -- a 2 on the express and two 5's on the West Side, one local and one express.
Lemme spin your head more....
A or C via 6th Ave to W 4th, E via 6th Ave to West 4th, E to Whitehall Street on the N,R all Broadway line local stops (G.O. reroute during late nights), D to Chambers St (at the time World Trade Center...I worked this looney tune G.O. reroute...talk about frustrating!!) all 8th Av local stops,
F service via the A line from W 4th to Jay Street (recent late night G.O., also done in reverse). How fast are you spinning now?? lol
Very fast! The only thing in the A Div that comes close to that is the old GO on the No.2 Line before 9/11.
The Downtown No.2 would be rerouted to South Ferry and go to B Loop on to the Lex Line. Then go into Wall Street (Lex Line) for a Crew change and the next crew pulls it back south to Brooklyn. Then there was a GO on the No.4 Line. The No.4 would go in 2 Services. Woodlawn to Bowling Green and 14 Street (Via 7Ave Line) to New Lots Ave. I never work any of them.
Thats all right in about 2 Years I may come over to B Div to join the madness. I want to build up seniority first. My goal is to work every subway line.
I remember that 4 GO -- but was it done more than one weekend?
I have yet to figure out why trains from Manhattan weren't turning on the Manhattan-bound track at Borough Hall.
The weirdest reroute I have ever had occured on the F. I was rerouted on the R from Queens Plaza to DeKalb Av, and then on the B line from DeKalb to Coney Island. This was about 3 years ago.
I have had my F running over the Bridge (6TH Ave) to Dekalb Bypass the the B line. I think there was a 12-9 at E-Broadway.
Robert
Ignorant question... what's a 12-9?
I'll give you a hint and I want to see if you can figure it out from here.....it's what every train crew operating on any train anywhere dreads the most!! (I don't mean pulled cords or door problems, but something much more serious!!)
Would it be running over someone?
JUST A GUESS!
You are correct.
Peace,
ANDEE
Come to think about it, it was the 12-9 of the kid who got hit by two G train at Bergin St. The first train never went BIE and by the time the second train saw that it was a body on the track it was two last, becouse it was wearing all Black.
Robert
That exact same reroute was the one I told about!! Except in this instance the W substituted for the B. Damn I can imagine, in both instances, how pissed the customers were!!! Damn......think of how pissed they were too when they had Fs going over the Brighton Line!!
Not quite as odd, but a year ago I was on an (orange) Q that was sent via the F to Kings Highway (W4, Delancey, Jay, and all stops from there) due to a stabbing at Grand. I got to see the Culver line through a railfan window ten months before the railfan windows came to the Culver line.
This reminds me of the time a northbound "N" train enter the 34th Street station on the express track, only to see the northbound "A" train enter on the local track. I was so fascinated by this because, these two lines never connect on the same tracks.
But the real fascination came when these two trains was traveling side-by-side.. Of course, the "A" was the clear winner and for some reason, the conductors on the "A" have such a Soulful spirit about them when they annouce the next stop or their terminating station.
N Broadway Line
How did the A get there (what connection)?, and I wonder why they rerouted up Broadway, and where it went. Very interesting!
I think it was two years ago, they were working on the Astoria line.. so the R was the only train runing up Broadway.. OH ShUCKS! So it was actually a BIG surprise to see the N on 6th Avenue. JUST CALL IT A FILL IN FOR THE REMOVE "B" SERVICE
Meanwhile, the "A" line is a regular vistor on 6th Avenue when trains are backed up, or they are doing track work on 8th Avenue.
The way the "A" gets to 6th Avenue is by switching to the "F" train tracks after Jay Street.. than around 42nd Street, it switches onto the "B" and "D" tracks which leads to central park.. For some reason, there isn't a switch from the "F" train track to the "D" train tracks after 47-50th Streets. SO THAT'S WHY THE INCONVIENCE SWITH TAKES PLACE THERE.
Of course, at this point the "N" was held because the "A" cross in front of it.
In the future, I expect to see a rerouted "R" on 6th Avenue, since, the tracks out of Queens Blvd feed right into 6th Avenue.
N BROADWAY
I've ridden several rerouted R trains and one rerouted N train over 6th Avenue while going to high school (between 1992 and 1996). But imagine having both the A and N, two lines that are not 6th Avenue lines and never operate together on any stetch of track, operating together on 6th Avenue. That must have been a real sight!
About the announcement thing on the A line.....BROTHA MAN I KNOW ALL ABOUT THAT!!! lol :-) (a fellow Soulful announcer....believe me my share of customers told me this!! Makes me love my job even more!!)
Rush hours, it can be up to two hours of cab time on the deuce.
>>>>>>>>>I love working on lines that require WORK!!
That's because you're a WACKO!
It's a shame to see that the steel dust affected you so soon.
Hahahaha ... show the boy some dominoes, will ya? :)
LOL.......cool ain't it? Everyone says that!! Guess I need a F.F.D. check (Fitness For Duty)
It probably wore out conductors on the R-10s.
Yeah, but they could lift a truck at the end of the shift. :)
I think it ran from Manhattan to the JFK station, but rumor has it from my dad and mom that it made ABSOLUTELY NO STATION STOPS IN BROOKLYN! i think it made some stops in manhattan, and then JFK was next so..
The train made two stops in Brooklyn on the way to Howard Beach. One was at Borough Hall.
Borough Hall is a stop on the IRT (both lines). The IND stops a few blocks away at Jay Street, which also received the confusing "Borough Hall" subtitle.
The station is ON Jay Street, a few blocks from Borough Hall, while another station on Jay Street is a few blocks north at York, and another a few blocks south at Bergen and Smith, which is an extension of Jay Street. Whi couldn't they call it Myrtle Avenue or Willoughby Street?
Yes, I've never understood that. Two consecutive stations on the F are on Jay Street (Smith is Smith, not Jay) and one is named Jay Street. There's a Myrtle-Willoughby on the G; why not also on the A/C/F?
Then again, I'm still waiting for an explanation of why the northern terminus of the 3, which is oriented east-west along 149th Street at street level, is called 148th Street-Lenox Terminal. It's not at 148th Street (nor is it at Lenox).
And getting back to York, the station itself is underneath the Manhattan Bridge. The single exit is at the north end of the platform, through a passageway, and up an escalator, and that still emerges not quite at York.
While on that topic, one of the first times I was ever in NYC, I went to 6th Ave and West 4th Street to try to find the subway entrance. I found it eventually, but it took me a while.
At least you found 6th Avenue. I know someone who walked back and forth between 5th and 7th a few times before figuring it out. (Obviously, this was before the 6th Avenue signs went back up.)
It took me a while to find the W4 entrances too. Basically, your landmarks are the Waverly theater at the south end, and Barnes and Noble at the north end.
One my my favorite not-so-fantasy projects is to rip out most of the block bounded by 6th Av, Waverly Place and Christopher St, and build a really good entrance to the north end of the station (directly into the middle mezzanine), with a transfer to the IRT Christopher St station. Something might also be done for PATH. You'd finance the whole thing by letting them put up a monster high rise apartment building once the work was done: the payoff would be worth it.
I believe this is a landmark district once you're a few feet in from 6th Ave. Certainly the Northern Dispensary, in that triangle, is a landmark.
Most certainly the Northern Dispensary is to be left untouched. It occupies an entire block by itself. Waverly Place jogs here, over to Christopher.
I was thinking of the other Waverly Place. The Northern Dispensary is bounded by Waverly Place, Waverly Place, and Christopher Street. There's a joke about telling someone you'll meet them at the intersection of Waverly and Waverly.
your landmarks are the Waverly theater at the south end
Now "closed for renovation" ...
One my my favorite not-so-fantasy projects is to rip out most of the block bounded by 6th Av, Waverly Place and Christopher St
Aaaarrrrggghhhhhh! Why on earth would you do that?
build a really good entrance to the north end of the station (directly into the middle mezzanine)
I don't see the crowds that demand this. Besides, why feed people into the mezzanine ... presumably half of them have to go back upstairs to the 8th Avenue lines?
with a transfer to the IRT Christopher St station.
That'd be one MAJOR transfer!! You're going from Sixth Ave/3rd Street to Seventh Ave/Christopher St ... right under Washington Place, most likely ... but how do you get to the downtown part of the IRT? Two separate side platforms, remember. Unless there's a closed-off underpass?
Something might also be done for PATH.
I think part of the PA's $500 million two-year rebuild of the WTC station includes new entrances to the west end of the PATH station at Ninth Street.
You'd finance the whole thing by letting them put up a monster high rise apartment building once the work was done: the payoff would be worth it.
The nabe would go utterly beserk. The only new building around there was the east side of Sixth Ave, north of Washington Place, full blockfront. They built exactly six stories. Neighborhood is fine just the way it is, and frankly, while the W 4th entrances are a little harder to find than usual, a lot of that has to do with inconspicuous signage. Put some Times Square-style "Subway" signs on 'em and there wouldn't be any problem. 'Course, that might not be allowed in a historic district either ... but I really don't see the need for massive new entrances. And even if you built 'em you don't need to demolish the neighborhood to do it!
W 4th St is well hidden, especially the entrance on the west side of 6th Ave.
:-) Andrew
I think at one time there was a stairway at W4th itself. N80 and N81 is at the north end. N83 is at the south end. Where was N82? In the middle. And that is where W4 is.
If so, it was before the mid-60s.
That's the same problem with the Steinway Street station on the G and R lines.. It on steinway street.. but short of Broadway.
N BROADWAY
I think Jay St-Boro Hall shuld be renamed Jay St-MetroTech. Boro Hall is about three blocks north from the station.
Jay Street-Brooklyn City Hall was the only stop in Brooklyn on the JFK Exp.
If they weren't leg weary.:-)
Just a little bow-legged like a cowboy. The antithesis of Red Fox' "when you get weak in the hips, you get strong in the lips" ...
On an R10, assuming the positon repeatedly, in bad weather....hell I tell ya.
BTW, an R7/R9 trip on a QJ from Stillwell to 168th St. may have been worse when the weather was bad, since that line was mostly above ground.
The old JFK express was an extremely high seniority line. You needed at least 10 years in title just to get the absolutely worst job on the line for an RDO relief trick. Most jobs however were snapped up by guys with two digit file numbers and less. Depending on the job, you did either 2 or 3 round trips, with the single digit file # guys doing only 1 trip.
Sounds almost exactly like the present Q line!! Except on the Q, I see 1/2 trips now!! Sweeeeeeet!!!
Sweeeeeeet, if you can get it. I'd much rather do 1 trip on the A for 8 hours pay than 2 trips for 11 hours pay. Not too many co-workers think like this though, I must be part of a dying breed.
It made very few stops (only one in Brooklyn & one in Queens after B'way Nassau), but conductors had to collect that extra fare.
Anyone remember the Willy B closure of sring 1988? The JFK express became a normal route. No extra fare, 8 car R46 trains. I rode if from Rockaway Blvd. to Rock Center. It was very popular in the late morning when it was the only express on Fulton St.
How was fare controlled on this train? And were they really nuts enough to check for people's fare between stops like 34th and 47/50th because someone who wanted to get from there to there decided to sneak on for two stops? Please explain, someone!!!!
It was sorta ran like the LIRR. THere was a conductor who roamed the train collecting the fare from you. I know this because I snuck on one at 21st Queensbridge. I rode all the way to Jay St. before the conductor noticed I was on the train. He then told me to cough up some money or please exit the train. needless to say i exited the train. I really wanted to ride that train to JFK. A super Express from Jay St to Howard Beach.
Frank D
how much was the premium?
When I rode it in 1984, it was either $5.00 or $6.00, including the regular 90-cent fare at the time (90 cents plus $4.10 or $5.10). The conductor would key open one door set at each station and say, "Airport". Everybody sat in the last car of the typical 3-car R-46 consist in use then.
It was 5.00 and the conductor collected your fare when he keyed you onto the train or if there was numerous fares he collected when the train got underway.
I haven't read all the replies, but I'm not sure this question was answered:
I was wondering how it ran making very few stops on its way out to the airport. Wouldn't it get backed up behind regular trains?
I would say that since the (A) was never terribly frequent, and the (C) even less so, this was rarely much of a problem. On the Sixth Ave section, it made no fewer stops than the (B) or (D).
:-) Andrew
Having seen much of the recent discussion regarding the future of Amtrak, there seems to be one continuing disagreement. One group of people claims "Nobody rides the long distance trains so they should be cut" while the other claims "I've ridden the long distance trains and they are full, with many seats turning over 2 or 3 times during the course of the trip".
With some spare time, I was able to pull together following pieces of information.
* - Note that some of Amtrak's own figures don't reconcile, so some adjustments are necessary, but I don't think they really impact the conclusions.
1. Amtrak carries approximately 22.5 Million passengers each year.
2. Amtraks 10 busiest stations had 23.8 Million "boardings" in 2000 (see the * comment above regarding stats that don't reconcile).
3. Of the 10 busiest stations, 8 were on the NEW and accounted for about 85% of the passengers.
4. By assuming that 15% of the NEC passengers were going to continue on, I estimate 6.25 Million annual passengers on Amtrak routes outside the NEC (22.5M times 15%, plus 22.5M times 15% times 85%).
5. The number of passengers on true "long distance trains" is considerably lower than 6.25M, as Amtrak does have corridor services in California and Chicago-Milwaukee with significant ridership.
6. I judgmentally put the number of long distance pax at 5M annually. That's a little less than 14,000 passengers per day.
For comparison purposes --
1. United Airlines carried 75 Million passengers in 2001.
2. American Airlines carried 80 Million passengers in 2001.
3. Delta carried 104 Million passengers in 2001.
Total for the Big 3 airlines -- 259 Million, or about 710,000 pax per day.
Both industries (rail and air) required significant subsidies in 2001. From my perspective, the question is where should the subsidies go -- to the many or to the few? If you could subsidize only one, and you needed to also consider jump-starting the economy which would you choose.
Of course, one needs to consider the amount of subsidy. I'll leave that for someone else to pick up the research.
CG
Rail competes with bus service to a much greater degree than air does.
Is it possible that AMTRAK counts bodies, that is , can it be that whether a person rides one train a year or one train a week, he/she is only counted as one person, accounting for the discrepancy in number of passengers vs. number of boardings. That would seem to indicate that about 10% of Americans ride an AMTRAK train at least once a year. Another point, what if the airlines are shut down for a significant length of time as they were after September 11. Doesn't an alternate transportation system make sense?
I wouldn't say all that about no one riding them. I have yet to go to Penn Station while railfanning and see a Silver Service train (Silver Meteor,Palm and Star) or the NYC-New Orleans Crescent leave with an empty or half full load (that's just people leaving NY, let's not even add Newark customers, Philly, Baltimore, D.C. customers). Those are Amtrak's best going long distance trains.
I was a regular rider on the Silver Service trains in 1996-1997, riding New York Penn to Rocky Mount, North Carolina and back. I could have easily boarded at either Newark or Trenton, but since I wasn't taking a sleeper I wanted to get a window seat and therefore rode NJT all the way to NYP to get one. Leaving New York, the cars are assigned by destination; passengers going to points between Richmond and Raleigh (to pick an arbitrary points, I don't recall which ones Amtrak actually used) would all be assigned to a particular car, for example, and only three or four coaches (out of eight or nine) would be used on departure from New York. Depending on train loading, additional cars might be opened at Trenton; the remaining cars would normally open at Philadelphia, which was a major boarding point for coach passengers - more so than New York on many occasions. Coming north, I've only once had the fortune to have a car opening at Rocky Mount; consequently, I've usually been stuck in an aisle seat for the run back.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The reason those trains are consistently full are the fact that it is east coast routes between major cities and suburban areas. I made the arguement a little back that a route like New York to Atlanta should be upgraded by ATK to high speed or maglev(in the future) to overcome the long distance involved. The people are there, the money is there, but ATK isn't doing anything about it. Believe me, if ATK came before congress, specifically the politicians from the south and northest states, and said they wanted money to build just that, it would happen quick. I can see communities in North Carolina asking for it to come through and make a stop at their area. The only people against such a thing, would of course be the airlines, mainly Delta, since Atlanta is their hub. A three hour ride from DC to Atlanta via rail would have them screaming murder, but the fact is if that were to happen, it would be better for ATK and the whole country as well.
>>> Amtraks 10 busiest stations had 23.8 Million "boardings" in 2000 <<<
I would expect Amtrak's ten busiest stations to have no more than 60% of the total boardings, since people do also board at smaller stations to go to larger ones, and travel between two smaller stations. Passengers traveling on a round trip ticket account for at least two boardings per passenger. Perhaps boardings include transfers from one train to another, and even buses where Amtrak regularly operates buses between two points like Los Angeles and Bakersfield. These things call into question your conclusions on the numbers of passengers actually traveling on the long distance routes, but intuitively they are far fewer than those in the NEC, given how few long distance trains there are per day.
Tom
14,000 riders per day doesn't necessarily mean empty trains, because the number of trains is so small. 14,000 riders per day is far fewer than airlines carry, but there are also many more flights than trains each day. Remember that a lot fo these long distance trains are running once a day at best in some cases. I think what we need to look at is riders per train and riders per plane, or better yet, the ratio of full seats to empty seats. Can the current service handle more than 14,000 passengers per day without adding more trains? An answer to that question would help us figure out how much the existing service is being used.
Mark
>>> I think what we need to look at is riders per train and riders per plane, or better yet, the ratio of full seats to empty seats. <<<
Wrong! If there is only one train a day, it is still necessary to have support personnel all along the route to sell tickets, repair deficiencies, advertise the service and clean the train. If you are running ten trains, (and you can fill them) you need ten crews, but not ten times the support personnel or advertising. These are the economies of scale. So running one full train a day does not mean you have a healthy railroad. That is more like a hobby than a viable business.
Tom
What I meant was, what is the ridership, given the available seats? We can now only say that there is enough ridership to fill those seats that are there, but this doesn't tell us what the ridership would be if unlimited seats were available. Were there more trains, we might see more riders. Then again, we might not. But I think it would be premature to say that if there are only 14,000 long-distance passengers per day, that there is no more demand than this, given that Amtrak doesn't have the capacity to carry more.
Demand might also be greater if there were more trains per day, because a once-per-day train often is of little use if it reaches your starting point or desitination at 3:00 AM, or if it results in a 16-hour wait for connecting transportation, be it another train, a plane, or whatnot.
Mark
"But I think it would be premature to say that if there are only 14,000 long-distance passengers per day, that there is no more demand than this, given that Amtrak doesn't have the capacity to carry more."
Considering how much Amtrak charges for sleepers* I would say it was a VERY safe bet that there is more demand out there. If they can fill the present trains at the present HIGH sleeper fares, then more capacity should allow them to lower fares and fill the "extra" cars. They charge so much for sleepers so that they can RESTRICT sleeper demand to the existing sleeper space!
*Admittedly, there are often cheap fares for coach. But Amtrak isn't going to run a train cross-country without a sleeper, so the severe shortage of sleepers means NO trains can be added.
>>> but this doesn't tell us what the ridership would be if unlimited seats were available. <<<
The marketing people do sophisticated research to find out what the prospective ridership is. Things like surveys of people flying to determine what would make them likely to travel by train, i.e. lower cost, more comfort, higher speed, convenient scheduling, etc. They also get some idea from how many requests for tickets on full trains have to be refused. If 14,000 tickets are sold and 100 requests were denied, it is not yet time to buy new rolling stock. If there were an additional 14,000 riders who were being turned away, I am sure there would be political pressure on congress and there would be no talk of ending Amtrak.
>>> Demand might also be greater if there were more trains per day <<<
There is no doubt that it would be greater, the question is how much greater. If you add four trains and get a 100% increase (from one full train) in customers it will mean the trains will be running with an average 40% load, and possibly larger losses. I saw a computer game of Sim Rail, or some name like that which purports to let the user manage a railroad, determining where to build new lines, what level of service to provide, how much to spend on equipment, etc.. I have not tried it so I do not know how good it is.
Tom
"If 14,000 tickets are sold and 100 requests were denied, it is not yet time to buy new rolling stock."
But you can't judge from that when Amtrak is intentionally overcharging for sleeper space* in order to shrink the demand to fit the space available!
*When you're talking long-distance, you're talking sleeper space unless you're a backpacking, hostel-sleeping, ramen-eating college student. :^)
>>> But you can't judge from that when Amtrak is intentionally overcharging for sleeper space <<<
Amtrak is not overcharging for sleeper space. They are charging what the market will bear. Traveling by sleeper is a luxury at luxury prices. Even at lower prices it would be a niche market because of the time involved.
Tom
"Amtrak is not overcharging for sleeper space. They are charging what the market will bear."
You're right that "overcharging" is not the right word.
a niche market? when there were CHEAP sleepers (Slumbercoaches) for instance on the Chicago-Denver route, they filled up. Same in other markets.
They are NOT overcharging. 1-2 people in a sleeper take up the room of at least 4 coach seats maybe more.
I have been on these trains too. The train leaves at 4am but they let sleepers board the night before. So now you have to have crew availble when the train would normally just be locked down.
"The train leaves at 4am but they let sleepers board the night before."
Eh? There's no place where sleeper passengers get on hours before coach passengers. At most, sleeper passengers get a half-hour or so of "head start" over coach. To be blunt, there are NO trains that leave their endpoint station in the middle of the night as you describe. Show me one in the National Timetable and I'll eat my hat.
Letting sleeper passengers sleep in for an hour or so when the train arrives early at its terminal? (And before anyone snipes, it DOES happen!) Maybe. Letting sleeping passengers board the night before? No way!
John, you are sadly correct, however inprevious years this was exactly how it worked./ I walked into NYPenn around 11PM checked in and sacked out. Around 3 AM rthe Southbound RRwest train which had left Boston before I started snoozing was attached. We then proceeded under the Hudson arrivingWash DC around 7 AM. Some years I could have remained on the car until 9:30 or so. Now that the "Twilight Shoreliner carries only one sleeper it is way less convenient and gets fewer riders. (Last time I used it we arrived in DC an hour and change before Metro service began--not a good connection.
i rode the southwest chief back in 2000 but the trains were all sooo
very cold ............no heat of any kind at all the AC was running !
Ah, yes, this *is* the case on Amtrak trains.
It is a nasty CAPITALIST PLOT to sell more blankets!
But I fooled the, I bought 1 blanket, and bring it with me every time I ride the train.
Elias
I'd rather have the consistent cold of a train than the temperature swings of an airplane...starting too cold, then getting deathly hot when airsickness kicks in...yuck.
Mark
Amtrak long distance trains are usually sold out for sleeper service and frequently sold out for regular seating. Remember that due to Amtrak's lack of funding they have had to sideline many long distance passenger equipment (mainly sleepers) which has put a big damper on available seats. Amtrak is frequently having to turn first class passengers away! In the Airline industry this would be unthinkable, but due to lack of funding Amtrak is unable to cash in on profit making centres.
What is the distence between New Brunswick and Princeton Junction and trenton on the NEC?
What is the distence between the Metro stations in Baltimore on the northern end of the line near Osinging Mills(sp?)?
As I recall on my last visit trains hit 70 MPH on the stretch of track, which was situated in the median of a highway.
>>What is the distence between New Brunswick and Princeton Junction and trenton on the NEC? <<
Per Amtrak timetable, 16 miles from NB to PJ, 26 miles NB to Trenton.
How fast did trains go before Field Shunting Modification?
I remember when I was young, trains used to fly.
Is it an (L) train or an (S) shuttle train? Which is it????? (Well, to give a hint, the pic was taken at the Sutter Avenue (L) subway station...)
Have fun!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Yeah, that's it...an identity crisis...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Now if the sign starts spinning by it self, just turn around and RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN!
Robert
A tour of the secret Grand Central/Waldorf Astoria connection is on the Metrochannel this evening ("NY Central", I think the program repeats all night). Here in Brooklyn it's channel 70.
Speaking of Grand Central, has anyone heard why the 42nd St Shuttle was suspended this evening, around 5:00pm?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
Someone who watched the program please post some of the secrets.
Have fun!
(The above pic is one for the R143 lovers...)
Next week, shots of the structure itself...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page...Cruising the Northeast Fare-free!
Damn!!!!! How do you put pictures in posts like that? Someone show me lol
Damn!!!!! How do you put pictures in posts like that? Someone show me
You have to have a website to load the pictures onto first. Then you have to know a little HTML language. If you're using Internet Explorer, while viewing this message select View, then Source to see how I put the following picture in this message:
Finally, make sure to Preview first before Posting.
Hey! I have ridden behind one of those!
Elias
Thanks for the pictures! I checked out that area Monday. It's interesting the way they're installing the new trackway to eliminate the S curve. Also the section between Atlantic Ave and Broadway Junction is interesting in the way they used what appears to be an old trackway to temporarily relocate the northbound track. I look forward to seeing your structure shots next week.
Nice to get the picture of the R-143 in the area right now, since it's like the 1964 U.S. half-dollar -- new design (the JFK image) coming in, old superstructure (in this case, the fully-silver coin) going out. Twenty- to 25-years from now, when the R-143s are still in service, it's going to be one of those great "Where was this photo taken" mystery pictures, after the line is straightened out and people are used to nothing but a straight track on the Canarsie line in the Atlantic Ave. area.
If only we had digital cameras and the Internet about 70 years ago! Just think of perfect pictures of the Second, Third, Sixth, Ninth, Lexington Ave. and Fulton St. Els. Sands St. Park Row and Fulton Ferry stations. Somebody please invent a time machine!
You can always have the developed ones scanned and put on the internet, if you still have the pictures anyway.
Yeah, but without color you loose alot.
But we can dream, Can't we?
wow...........jeez, yo uget great pics, kudos!
--jonathan c
Thank you
Let's just say that I try pretty hard...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
P.S., by the way, anyone have any R143 pics that they'd like to see in a gallery? I plan to make one soon...Please e-mail them to me at carlwal@hotmail.com and give me the info so that I can know who took the pic and where the location of the pic is...for those who wish to contribute and get your work out there!
Once I got a video of R143's rounding the S curve. I can't get it online because I don't have the equipment for that.
Nice!! Thank you.
Yes dats' right UGLY !! to me a railcar subway car trolley car metro railroad car should be painted COLORS !!
Ok at least somewhere ........................lol!
Like red orange blue green white powder blue yellow brown green & the colors of the rainbow !!
The R 62s R-142s & many others with this BORING all stainless steel dull off grey finish to me is UGLY!!
What was beautiful to me was the worlds fair cars on the # 7 line ( U know what i am talkin' bout' here ) ....
Those ( tiny little digital signs ) on the r32-38 series ""R"" ugly too !! the rollsigns looked better !!
By the way i am not just commenting only about my home & birthplace NYC but buses & othr transit systems as well !! COLORS is the thing with me !! LOOKS SO MUCH BETTER !!
What do U think folks ???..........lol !!!
thankz,.... salaamallah
WOW, this has got to be a first post from you without talking about the railfan window! :-) Well I think that the MTA should stick with metal, it's pretty cool looking if you know how to design the interior and exterior features.
not so fast !!
remember most of your r 12 on wre painted pretty colors !!
like the ones with railfan windows as well !!!
lol !!
Again, I defer to Philly. The Broad Street cars are mostly orange, save the tops, fronts, doors, and floors (those are silver, black, silver, and black, respectively, and by front, I mean above the cab or rear of the car if it's not a double-cab)
All white with SEPTA's new red&blue "headband" scheme isn't too bad. A target for ads, but it reminds me of Baltimore in some way. This refers to the trolleys. Using separate color schemes was outta the question, since Kawasaki made both the single and double enders - and they were interchangeable! (well, it'd be tough for a Subway-Surface car on the 101 Media trolley, but there's a pantographed double-end trolleycar sitting in Woodland shops right now.) If they had gone for a color scheme? I don't kow how I'd take to brown trolleycars. Maybe if they were more a burnt sienna like Metrorail's cars down in DC. Green would be fine.
PCC corporate livery: Orange/Blue/Silver or Maroon/Green/Cream? Love them both! (got a model of a Route 23 trolley that matches the latter scheme for my birthday. Any Philly residents or visitors that have been to the Transit Museum & Store (& SEPTA HQ at 1234 market St.) know what I mean) I'll even take the SEPTA Red/White/Blue original PCC scheme seen on the PCCs sitting in Luzerne (if you dare brave the neigborhood.)
N5 Norristown line (Route 100) cars: Well, I can live with a combo of Red & Blue set against silver (or black in the case of the first car delivered)
M4 Market-Frankford line cars: The only blue on the blue line (stations exempt) is the floor. And the seats and a blue band at the top of the sides of the cars. Cream inside, stainless steel silver outside. Well, 2nd Street station makes up for any lack of blue.
Regional Rail: They don't call them "Silverliners" for nothing. And the Phila. Int'l. Airport scheme and seat color (and cushioning) beats the new band scheme any day... though I adore the Silverliner IV's new interiors
All in all: Bright, vibrant colors are a must-have. It forces you to clear the dust off the train. However, I don't think too many would take kindly to a purple paint scheme on the 100 line cars... But still, plain white, black, or silver makes for dull appearance to the train. Maybe they'll avoid such plain colors on their new rail projects. I'd like seeing a gold or bronz-colored train.
I love the Broad Street Subway and one of my favorite things about it is that the cars are so aggressively orange. Of course, I like shiny metallic subway cars, too. The brushed aluminum of Toronto's trains won me over almost at first sight.
Light rail vehicles tend to look best when painted, though. I think my favorite paint scheme is on Dallas DART. Coming back to Philadelphia, I don't like the new "headband" scheme for trolleys. It's essentially a blank white which ends up looking very dreary and depressing. I like the older scheme better.
Route 100 is the exception to the light rail paint rule. It's stainless steel cars with the orange and blue stripe look fantastic. I absolutely love them.
SEPTA regional rail...the new red and blue window area decals make all the difference in the world. They look a whole lot brighter and cheerier now. As for other commuter systems, my favorite paint schemes are the blue and turquoise of San Diego's Coaster trains, tied with the Texas flag scheme used of Dallas-Ft.Worth's Trinity Express trains.
Mark
dont forget the san diego redbirds !! ....trolley ...
man they look nice !
I agree! The simple classic red is hard to beat, especially since red trolleys carry a lot of tradition in Southern California.
Mark
Some illustrations:
I love the Broad Street Subway and one of my favorite things about it is that the cars are so aggressively orange. Of course, I like shiny metallic subway cars, too.
Coming back to Philadelphia, I don't like the new "headband" scheme for trolleys.
Route 100 is the exception to the light rail paint rule. It's stainless steel cars with the orange and blue stripe look fantastic. [Sorry I don't have a better Route 100 shot online].
SEPTA regional rail...the new red and blue window area decals make all the difference in the world.
>>I love the Broad Street Subway and one of my favorite things about it is that the cars are so aggressively orange<<
I had a fantasy a while back. What if SEPTA bought about 20 future retired R-38s and used them for ball park specials etc. Imagine the upper half of the smooth stainless steel with an orange decal band and a SEPTA "S" on the storm door.
I know, SEPTA is OPTOland so forget about it.
Hey! Imagine future retired R-44s with an orange belt rail where the blue paint used to be !
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-38s would look right at home, as they have a classic design similar to the Kawasakis SEPTA is currently running under Broad Street. The R-44s would look pretty nifty, too, provinding a nice contrast to those traditionalist cars of the current Broad Street fleet.
In fact, if (this is a big if) we ever get a Roosevelt Boulevard subway here in Philadelphia, SEPTA will need to buy a lot of cars to Broad Street specifications (but better suited for outdoor running as some of the line will be above ground and some stations exposed), so even though the current BSS is far from needing to be replaced, this isn't just idle talk after all.
Mark
Personally I like the stainless steel carbodies. I think there's nice compromise on the MBTA in boston, on the red line bombardiers you got the metallic carbodies plus the red stripe on the bottom.
The problem with painting the subway trains a solid color in a place like NYC is that I think it would confuse the tourists, if the train was a different color than the line color they see on the map.
Then be senselessly patriotic and do a red - white - blue theme. Or maybe replace white with clear varnish.
They did it in the 70's with the silver and blue scheme. Only a couple of subway lines in the 70's were blue on the maps and rollsigns. Even today, with the Redbirds, the only red line to run them was the 2. The other lines that run (or ran them) were the C (blue), the L (gray), the M (brown), the 4, 5 and 6 (green) and the 7 (purple). I don't think tourists were confused by them.
Speaking as someone who has ss cabinets in my kitchen...besides the classic BUDD corrugated (R32,R54/11) is hard to eclipse.
As to painting ss some soet of accent is nice but part of the point is no need for a paint shop/crew.
Well I thought most all rail co.'s trains here in the NE has a stainless steel finish, which includes AMTRAK, NJT Arrows, NYCT, and SEPTA. (SEPTA is a bit colorful in the window area.)
since you love color so much,stick with saying that about transits where you are,leave every other transit alone,cause you're just annoying.
your opinion..??..........wrong that is ....
Here's a picture I recently acquired of the interior of the old LIRR "double deckers". Unlike the current C-3's, there weren't two separate levels - just one level where you either stepped up to the upper set of seats or down to the lower set. The picture is from the April, 1963 issue of Railroad Magazine. I remember these cars very well.
The only time I ever rode one of them I was a cub scout and too young to care. Do you happen to know the seating capacity and how it compares with the C-1s or C-3s?
According to the Railroad Museum of LI which has the original car, #200, it was 132.
According to a thread on the LIRR Forum, "the C-3 bilevel coaches hold 140 seated passengers, 137 if the car is equipped with a bathroom."
Thanks, Bob. Just as an aside, I was on the 5:10 out of Penn Station tonight. In the area where the bathroom would have been, there were three 2-seaters and a single. On the car with bathrooms, only the single is there. Seems the differential should be more like 6 seats but I really didn't count them.
Your Mission, Train Dude, should you decide to accept it, is to count the number of seats in all the different variations of the C-3's, both with and without bathrooms/bar areas. Of course the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions... :-)
Thanks! Of course that'll mean that I won't get my usual nap.
*plays the Mission Impossible theme*
Bob: Those were great cars. I only got to ride them once but is was on the LIRR's World's Fair Special.It ran non-stop from the World's Fair to Penn Station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember there was a World's Fair Special from Hempstead to the Worlds Fair which was all double decker cars. My grandmother took us to the fair that way. It went from Hempstead to Woodside then changed direction and went on the Port Washington Branch to the Fair. I guess they used all double deckers since they were the only cars in which you didn't have to switch the seat's direction as all the seats on the double deckers faced each other, much like the seats closest to the doors on the present day M1-3's. I'm not sure if the train stopped at Woodside or even went all the way to the station. I don't know where the interlocking is or was.
LIRR had those sort of schedules set up on the Bablyon branch too -- the train would go to "WIN" interlocking, just beyond the point where the mainline and Port Washington branc met. There used to be a bunch of switches there to get from mainline to PW and vice-versa.
I'm glad someone else remembers it. I was starting to think I was imagining it. As a young 11 yr old kid I thought it was neat when the train started going the other way.
LIRR's very first diesel push-pull operation started with the World's fair, believe it or not. It wasn't a regular thing -- maybe happened only once or twice, but I rode one of the trains. We boarded at Islip -- the train actually had one of the old Fairbanks-Morse C-liners on it and pulled us to WIN interlocking. We had made a stop at Jamaica, and during the stop, they coupled one of the RS-3's onto the rear of the train. It did the pulling from WIN to the World's Fair station. (The C-Liner was just rolling along for the ride, not really true push-pull operation.) The occasion was a day at the fair for all the Catholic schools in southern Suffolk County.
While everyone was at the Fair, the train left there, and for the afternoon return trip home, the C-Liner was on the east end and the RS-3 on the west end -- and was uncoupled at Jamaica.
I think that was also the last time I saw one of the C-Liners on LIRR as most of the Century 420's had already been delivered.
<< It ran non-stop from the World's Fair to Penn Station. >>
I didn't think the double-deckers fit in the tubes?
"I didn't think the double-deckers fit in the tubes? "
The old ones surely did fit in the tubes. They were no taller than any other car on the train.
When you entered the car from the vestibule, there was an incline up to the isle level, which put your head rather close to the overhead, and then you would step up into an upper booth, or down into a lower booth. The boths were staggered so that those on the upper level (facing east) were sitting directly above those on the lower level (facing west) and so on.
Since seating was 2x2 across, I am not sure that the *really* held more people than a conventional coach, but perhaps the must have done so, else why bother with the things.
Elias
The old double-deckers WERE taller than the other carso n the train. Look at photos of LIRR trains in which there were mixed-consist m.u. trains...the older MP70 double deckers were about six inches higher than most of all the other cars. (Contrast that with the MP75 "zip cars" of 1963 which were three inches lower than the 1955 MP72 stock)
Double-Deckers were 14'2" (no Brooklyn)
MP72 were 13'7"
MP75 were 13'0", the same as an arch roof MP54 without the box vents.
M1 & M3 are 12'10"
Thanks for the exact figures, Joe. I was actually guessing from photographs!!!
How tall are the current bi-levels?
>>Contrast that with the MP75 "zip cars" of 1963 which were three inches lower than the 1955 MP72 stock<<
Does anyone know why the MP-75s earned the nickname "zip cars" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
When they were new, they had them set up in six five-car trains. (Cab-trailer-trailer-trailer-cab). They worked the Babylon line most of the time, and if they were kept in exlcusive MP75 sets, their acceleration was really good....they had ZIP.
This is what I was told by more than a handful of LIRR people back in those days.
What ever happened to the MP75's. They remind me of the MNRR ACMU 1100's, and those are still running.
>>What ever happened to the MP75's<<
Retired because of the new bi-level fleet. Presumed scrapped.
Bill "Newkirk"
The MP75 cars were very much indeed like the M-N ACMU fleet -- they were built by P-S at the very same time (1963).
As for what happened to them....they were converted to push-pull cars just as the MP72 fleet was. The MP75's were numbered into the 2700 series. Many of them lasted until the C-3 double-deckers were delivered and then the push-pull fleet sold or scrapped.
Actually, if you take the line to/from Flatbush, and just after the grade portal on the yard (and DUNTON tower) side, there seems to be a very very verrrry old unit on a yard track...I don't know exactly what it is...just that it's been sitting there for a LONG time.
Stuart D. Guberman
Engineer # 018
Virtual Philadelphia & Washington Railroad
(www.vamtrak.8m.com)
They are really 2 different species. All the conventional LIRR MU's were Westinghouse, while the New York Central's were GE. An MP75 consist once did 105MPH with the governors off on the mainline one day. The MP75 was essentially an updated MP72, which was a 3rd rail version of the NH Washboard, all Westinghouse and Pullman Standard - Worcester. The LIRR shop people disliked the MP75. They had 4 types of braking systems, and were too complicated for them. All the prior classes had straight air. After the T72 (2801-2844) conversion to push-pull in 1971, the MP75 followed next along with a few MP72T. The last 40 conventional cars in service in the Fall of 1973 included very few MP75's and the rest MP72.
There were some on the Hempstead Line too, the trains that didn't go to Flatbush of course.
They never went to Brooklyn. Then again no post war trains went to Brooklyn until the M-1's.
Sorry to have to correct you, Jeff -- but the LIRR most certainly DID run postwar equipment into Flatbush Avenue....AFTER 1968. There are numerous photos in LIRR books showing the equipment on the line. I forget which book it is in, but there even was one of the MP70 double-deckers illustrated as coming out of the tunnel by Nostrand Avenue.
The double-deckers were officially banned from Brooklyn, which is not so say it never happened. There was one track in the terminal that could handle them without knocking stuff off the ceilings. They were also called upon to haul a heavy-weight Parlor car down there for official purposes.
They most certainly DID fit into the tubes.
I heard the conductors hated them, also the car cleaners ust have felt the same.
Bill "Newkirk"
Everyone hated them. I believe they were unique in the US to the LIRR. Maybe unique in the world. I've been in 200 It's a TINY car.
They weren't unique in the world. The only double-deck train ever tried in the UK was arranged like this -- real double-deckers aren't possible with the small UK loading-gauge. The Southern Electric network (suburban commuter trains in south London and adjoining areas) had one eight-car train (two 4-car units, actually, classified "4DD") and used it for quite a number of years; it was adjudged a failure because its loading and unloading times were too slow. They then lengthened station platforms to allow 10-car trains instead.
The 200 seems tiny, not only because of the cramped "stagecoach" type compartments, but also because it is a short-length car. The "62" in its car classification -- T62 -- indicated that the inside length of the passenger compartment was 62 feet long. (This was the standard Pennsylvania Railroad classification system.)
The rest of the older double-deckers were classified MP70 -- meaning the passenger compartment was 70 feet long, eight feet longer than the 200. That got another 16 people crammed into those compartments as there were an additional upper/lower on each car side.
The air conditioned ones (#200 was not) were always warm at the upper level, and the ceiling was always crackling from heat expansion and vibration. The engineers liked them because it was a peppy train. They were mostly aluminum and a very light weight car for its size. Of course, kids liked them too.
Not everyone. As a kid I loved them.
The upper level was like a Wells Fargo stagecoach. You played "kneesies" with everyone in both upper and lower compartments. If you sat in a lower compartment, you'd get a good view right up some gal's dress on the upper level. But if you sat in the lower level, you also sat in filth, as that's where all the trash and dirt in the train wound up.
As I remember from MANY (all too many...) trips in those old LIRR MP70's, they were HOT, stuffy, and rode hard...harder than most of the other LIRR stuff of the time, considering LIRR's lousy track. Those double deckers also STUNK!!! They had crappers, and I don't think anyone ever knew how to aim when using them. And what did get launched down the tube wound up right onto the wheels and brake shoes. Nothing like fried piss smell.
Can't y'all tell? I HATED those cars. I rode them in the 1950's through the late 1960's when I moved away from the LIRR.
I rode on them many times, but since I was a kid then, I just loved them. Mom always complained, because she could tell that we were sitting in a smoking car.
Hey, do your remember when you could smoke on a train? Geeeze You *are* Old!
Elias
Hey I'm 30 and I remember smoking cars on the LIRR when I was a kid on the diesels. They had a sign that they could swing a little hinged door over the "No" on the No Smoking sign if it was a smoking car. It must have been in the mid to late 70's, because I was quite young.
Yeah, unfortunately, I do remember smoking being allowed on the trains. Yes, it stunk.
Just for the record, I'm 51....
Then dirt problem resulted because the lower seating compartment areas were like pits where all refuse collected. Car cleaners could not adequately clean the lower compartments with a broom, pail, and mop because the floor was not flush with the aisle. Another problem occurred on rainy or snowy days when water drip from umbrellas and coats would end up in the lower compartments, particularly if someone placed those items on the baggage rack above the lower compartments.
Wow. Thanks for shaking the cobwebs on that one! I barely remember riding these coaches, but the picture brings it all back.
By the way, is that W.C. Fields in the upper "booth," or Dashing Dan?
Worse ... it's "Larry 'Bud' Melman." :)
Just for the record, the last one, #1301 ran from Hempstead to NYP trailing a consist of MP70T 3500's (also their finale) and an MP72C #2502 on Feb 29, 1972.
Here is something to think about:
At 8.02 p.m. on February 20th this year it will be an historic moment in
time. It will not be marked by the chiming of any clocks or the ringing
of bells, but at that precise time, on that specific date, something will
happen which has not occurred for 1,001 years and will never happen
again. As the clock ticks over from 8.01 p.m. on Wednesday, February
20th, time will, for sixty seconds only, read in perfect symmetry 2002,
2002, 2002, or to be more precise:
20:02, 20/02, 2002.
The last occasion that time read in such a symmetrical pattern was long
before the days of the digital watch and the 24-hour clock - at 10.01
a.m. on January 10, 1001. And because the clock only goes up to 23.59, it
is something that will never happen again.
20:02, 20/02, 2002.
The last occasion that time read in such a symmetrical pattern was long before the days of the digital watch and the 24-hour clock - at 10.01 a.m. on January 10, 1001. And because the clock only goes up to 23.59, it is something that will never happen again.
Why don't you count December 21, 2112 at 9:12 PM?
21:12, 21/12, 2112
or 11:11 AM on Armistice Day, 1111?
11:11, 11/11, 1111
I'll ignore the fact that there was no Armistice Day in 1111. Consider this palindromic date and time to be observed Friday: 2002/02/22 20:20:02.
Damned numerologists! :)
Amusing sequence though ...
Because I don't spend my time analyzing number sequences. What is the next question? What is the square root of each and every unit number added up?
Glad to see the R62a on the 7. Rode it home today - Local out of the square. It felt weird - especially when it pulled into Main St.
The inside was clean (including the floor) and the windows were almost new....the picture windows were new but the top half (the split where you can open the window) was severely scratched up.
One question. And I apologize if this has been answered before....
What has happened to the 89xx constit that was on the 7 line (I think one of the cars was 8915/16, and the WF car was #9338?
I Saw 9338 coupled with 9362/3 today. Did they send the 89xx train back when the R62A got here?
Personally, I kinda liked seeing these older redbirds on the line. At least they were overhauled once at 207th St - something the Flushing Redbirds never had done.
Thanks.
Flx7595
Gone back to The Bronx.
My understanding is no more Redbirds will be assigned to the 7, but it could be a while before there are more than a handful of "Silver Sevens."
It depends how quickly the R-142As are accepted for passenger service on the 6 line...No R-142As, no transfers to Corona...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I spotted 7591-95 at East 180th Street Yard on Tuesday, so the original R142A order must be nearing completion.
The mainline R-33's were apparently borrowed to make up for a temporary car shortage. They didn't get along well with the R-33 single. They've been returned for good.
from NJT's website:
1- more caternary problem on the Northeast Corridor. Sill some 25-30 minute delays and one train left NYC an hour late.
2- Dinky service suspended till further notice due a brush fire. Shuttle buses in service.
I guess with this drought it is a matter of time till the next meadowlands brush fire and suspension of service.
2- Dinky service suspended till further notice due a brush fire. Shuttle buses in service.
Further notice came at 10:01 PM. Dinky service is restored.
Crains is reporting that the new Bush budget may doom east side acces and secound ave subway
www.crainsny.com/news.cms?newsId=2496
These two projects would have soaked up all of the FTA's "New Starts" money for a decade. So we were never going to get funding through normal channels. Either they will fund these projects, or they will not.
a few redbirds hang around a bit longer ?
Did you really expect Seccond Avenue Line? I can quaote from a famopus song from a famous Broadway play and movie
"To dream, the impossible dream..."
In other words... I have a bridge for sale. it has two subway tracks, in the center and eight traffic lanes plus and elevated pedestrain walkway, which when finished will be ADA compliant. (Willie B.)
Monday, it was reported the the Governor was so impressed with the R-143 that he committed the TA to purchase 3,500 similar cars in the future. If you add the current R-143 contract, that would make 3,712 new 60-foot cars on the B division.
Currently, there are 1,572 60' cars in the R-32 through R-42 fleets.
There are also 1,649 75' cars (or the equivalent of 2,061 60-foot cars) R-44 through R-68A or 3,221 total cars or 3633 60-foot car equivalents.
If the cars are delivered at the rate of 260 per year. the entire fleet would be replaced in 14 years. That would meen that all the 75' foot cars would be retired very prematurely. The R-68s would be a mere 28 years old at most and the R-68As would be just 26. Does this seem to be a wise course? Of course some of the cars are leased to the TA so the owners might lose but I'm not sure of the wisdom.
a uniform fleet? quite interesting
It would probably be quite much easier on the shops, but would it be worth it???, Are the 62s going to be replased by 142s?
The 62s will be staying for a while and not replaced by 142s
i mean if R143s replace all b div cars, would they order more 142s to make the whole fleet almost uniform
R142s are not only shorter but narrower....there may be a six inch opening between the carbody and platform (according to SubTalkers.) The change should have been made decades ago. CI Peter
The R142 and R143 are basically cousins. I think he meant replacing all IRT with the R142 and all B division with R143 for uniformity. God I hope that never happens. Part of what makes the subway interesting is all the different types of cars.
And What about Staten Island? Those R-44's won't last forever
>>And What about Staten Island? Those R-44's won't last forever<<
Rehab the R-68s and send them over there ?
Geez, that a thought !
Bill "Newkirk"
And leave the final field shunt step disabled just for laughs.
Bad idea. Don't criple things with potential. Send the poor old LIRR M-1s They have railfan windows unlike R-68s.
that is what i meant
Hey the pre-war IND fleet was uniform.
Elias
I wouldn't mind seeing the 75' cars go altogether. The "B" division wasn't meant to handle the 75' cars to begin. What to do with the old cars? Take the ones that have some life left in them and use them as extra cars on the commuter railroads. Install more comfortable seats and bathrooms.
#3 West End Jeff
Nah.... 75' is too short! Commuters need 85' cars.
Elias
Why?
The R-44 and R-46 are commuter grade. They can run on the LIRR with little modifications, or MNRR with more major changes or on the ConnDOT (NHRR (New Haven Rail Road) with a major overhaul to add pantegraphs.
Using the R-44/46/68/68A subway car on the commuter lines would be a good idea if the T/A makes the right move and pulls these cars from the subways and replaces them with 60' 6" cars. Then at the same time they can put off having to order new cars for the commuter lines for a number of years.
#3 West End Jeff
> Install more comfortable seats
Actually, the 75-foot cars already do have more comfortable seats than the 60-foot and IRT cars.
- Lyle Goldman
Quite uninteresting.
I'm assuming this was a reporter's error.
Where would the money for the 3500 cars come from? I really doubt we would pay for the extra cars when the 68/As are still good. Maybe the 44s, 46s, and 32s, would go after a while and they'd be replaced, but the 68/As should stay. Besides, having a uniform fleet is no fun. 75 footers are a nice thing to have around just for variety, especially after all the trouble the TA went through to get them to work right in the tunnels.
Sounds wasteful to me too, particularly as the R46 is my favorite car.
It would seem to make more electoral sense than mechanical sense, as Pataki is up for a third term this year. It would be political not so much for the cars themselves, but for all the jobs they would create, at he expense of the future. Also, funny how he is not pushing fare increases now, unlike when he forced one through as soon as he first took office.
However, I guess there is precedent for this, such as the premature retiring of the R27/R30's, or at least of the best of that class that had been temporarily spared.
Then again, such an order could be to expand the fleet. I understand from previous posts that there is a B-division car shortage. The order would certainly take care of that, especially if (all, most, or at least some of) the 75' cars, are retained.
One other thing that just came to mind, TD, which you of course would know far better than I - It is my understanding that one of the advantages of the R142's & R143's is that they have fewer mechanical parts than the current fleet, and thus would cost less to maintain. Is it plausible that the lower maintenance costs of the newer cars could justify the premature retirement of the older ones?
>>However, I guess there is precedent for this, such as the premature retiring of the R27/R30's, or at least of the best of that class that had been temporarily spared.<<
Why did the MTA retire 30 year old cars?
It had something to do with not being able to convert the R27-30's to have air conditioning. It would have made them too heavy or something, and they wanted 100% air conditioned on the whole subway.
With one notable exception, one car on each 7 train is still not air conditioned.
one car on each 7 train is still not air conditioned.
Why the beep do they do that???
Air conditioning was installed in the Redbirds in conjunction with the coupling of cars into so-called married pairs. I don't know the technical details, but since a lot of the stuff necessary to move the cars can be shared in such an arrangement, enough space was cleared up to make room for the air conditioning system.
But, unlike any other line, the 7 runs 11-car trains. Since, last I checked, 11 was not divisible by 2, that left one single car on each 7 train -- the so-called "R-33 single" (not to be confused with the mainline R-33, currently making up most of the 5 fleet). There is no room on the R-33 singles for air conditioning equipment.
The R-33 single is always the third car from the Flushing end. Some summers, the 7 is cut down to 10 cars so that all cars are air conditioned.
Actually, the air conditioning on the 7's R-36's isn't terribly reliable. Since the R-33 has large, noisy fans that pull in air from outside (the 7 line is mostly elevated), and the storm doors latch open (the latches have been removed from most other cars), it's not all that bad a car to ride in in moderate heat.
Once R-62A's take over the line, this will no longer be an issue. R-62A's were built as air-conditioned singles from the get-go. (Most were later bundled into five-car sets, but many from the 3 train were left single since, until early August, the 3 ran 9-car trains. Those singles will come in handy again on the 7. The R-62A consist in service now has one five-car set from the 6 and six singles from the 3. It can't use two five-car sets and one single, unless some transverse cabs are folded up, since passengers in the single would be trapped.)
Your post brings up alot of interesting facts on several different issues I wanted to respond to, but are sort of unrelated, so here it goes....
Are the platforms at capacity at 11 cars (I assume so, otherwise they would run 12 car trains). Would it be very hard to extend the platforms on the 7 to allow for 12 cars. It really seems that the line could use the capacity.
(the latches have been removed from most other cars),
I had to throw this in, because you reminded me of it.
I really miss the open doors on subway cars. Of course AC is great but nothing could beat a train of R10's running down the Rockaway line in the summer with all the windows and doors open. Ahh that was great. And that was even true on lines like the J/M on the el with the R27-R30's.
It can't use two five-car sets and one single, unless some transverse cabs are folded up, since passengers in the single would be trapped.)
Isn't that not much different than people being "trapped" in the R44-46-68's?
The hours of 2:45 and 4:45 is when most yuth gangstas ride the rails. After that it's the rush hour people.
"It had something to do with not being able to convert the R27-30's to have air conditioning", It was really that they did not want to convert the B division's worst cars, while they would not last much longer
I think the R27-30 looked a lot worse than they really were, and could have lasted a lot longer. Now the R16's were another story. They looked and ran like hell.
Forget the R-16s. They were garbage. The R-27/R-30/R-30A would have needed a complete overhaul including new propulsion packages. The trucks would not have been able to handle the additional weight of AC without a complete overhaul, as well.
New Train, Old Railfan Window. The former beauty of the rails.
The R-27 had a weight of 80,345 for the even car and 81,090 for the odd cars. The R30 and R-30A were about 800 Lbs. less. This was about 10,000 Lbs heavier than the R-32s before AC was added. Clearly you are correct. The cars would have been far too heavy to be viable had AC been added.
As long as the cars are ordered in batches, and not as one order, it could prove wise.
On the other hand, if the entire order was rushed into production, you would have a premature retirement of the fleet.
Another problem is if you buy them all at once now, they will also all need to be retired at the same time. What if at that time, the city doesn't have enought money to replace an entire fleet?
Another problem is if you buy them all at once now, they will also all need to be retired at the same time. What if at that time, the city doesn't have enought money to replace an entire fleet?
I believe that's a problem the LIRR faces now, in fact.
:-) Andrew
Also if they prove to be lemons somewhere down the line, we're stuck with a whole subway system of lemons on both divisions.
Feh ... we'll offer the lessors some Enron stock and cart them up here to the Voorheesville subway. :)
There are pros and cons to this.
Pro: A uniform fleet is cheaper and easier to maintain than a diverse fleet. 14 years to replace the entire fleet is somewhat gradual, so it's not like the TA needs to shell out billions of dollars at one time for the fleet, so this wouldn't strain the budget and sacrifice other areas (ie, maintenance) in order to buy cars. And the money needed to buy cars could be gradually saved up during the 26 years (assuming 40 year life) new cars aren't purchased.
Con: The R68s are one of the best performing fleets in the system, early retirement would be a waste of the good fleet. That's money down the drain. Could one company handle a 14 order that only comes once every 26 years? If multiple companies are used, would the fleet really be uniform? The 142 and 142A are different enough that crews need to be trained seprately for each (correct me if I'm wrong about this).
IMO, ordering an entire fleet at once is not a good idea.
Some of the subway cars are leased? What's the story behind that?
Doesn't the Port Authority own the M1 fleet on the LIRR also? I think it used to say that on the cars.
>>> And the money needed to buy cars could be gradually saved up during the 26 years (assuming 40 year life) new cars aren't purchased. <<<
That will be the day... Can you even imagine any elected politician saying "we will retain the same high tax rates while we accumulate funds for a purchase a quarter of a century in the future"? You don't have to be the junior shrub to win an election against that guy.
Tom
To quote from the movie, "Moscow on the Hudson," "Some day the balls of our leaders will hang in a museum. And we'll be able to point to them and say THERE! THERE are the balls of our leaders!" ... until that time, those who truly believe should buy, accumulate Enron shares. :)
Yeah, I was thinking "fat chance" as I wrote that.
>>> Some of the subway cars are leased? What's the story behind that? <<<
It is not unusual for transportation equipment such as subway cars and buses to be leased. The guys with the big bucks purchase the equipment, and over the useful life of the equipment lease it to the city at a rate which gives them a good interest rate and return of their capital. At the end of the lease, the transit agency gets the equipment for a nominal amount. Since the bankers own the equipment, they also get to depreciate it for tax purposes, something a public agency does not do. It amounts to a way to finance the purchase without issuing bonds.
Tom
I'd not marvel at all at losing the R44s, and I could see maybe the R46s, but the R68s???!!!!! The best performing cars in the fleet? At the very least I'd keep those on.
:-) Andrew
I'd not marvel at all at losing the R44s, and I could see maybe the R46s, but the R68s???!!!!! The best performing cars in the fleet? At the very least I'd keep those on.
The R46's are perfectly reliable & are only 26 years old. The only thing they have in common with the R44 is looks.
One can only hope that those 74 foot monstrocities hit the scrapper ASAP. Aside from the poor acceleration THEY DON'T ALLOW YOU TO PASS THROUGH. Anywho, too bad a SubTalker wasn't on hand to lobby for the reinstatement of railfan windows/Halfable cabs. Why can't we ever elect a railfan into public office. You'd have thought that the laws od normal probability would have kicked in by now.
You know that it's been written here that all subways cars accelerate the same.
Aside from the # of traction morots per train, do not people refer to R-68's as "hippos"?
I'd rather believe cold, hard numbers over some railfans' nickname for a car. Besides, the only reason they feel slow is becuase they are smoother.
Also, the number of motors is a moot point. A Ferrari and a Geo Metro have only one motor, yet, somehow, the Ferrari is more powerful.
With rail transit it is most definitly not a moot point. Beacuse each wet of wheels has a contact area that is a little bigger than a dime. the number of powered axles has a big impact on acceleration and tractive effort.
Well, WMATA and MARTA have 75 ft cars, and they have no problem accelerating fast. NYCT 75 footers don't either.
They do indeed, but they genuinely DO accelerate at the same rate as all the others. I actually wasted time with a pendulum-based accelerometer and yes, they do ...
Perhaps a small group of unenlightened railfans refer to them as "Hippo's". Perhaps youi should ask the people who ride them every day and who were up-in-arms last July when they heard that the R-68s might be pulled from the Concourse line.
BTW: Mike, I'm going to assume that "Morots" was a mis-spelling.
Perhaps youi should ask the people who ride them every day and who were up-in-arms last July when they heard that the R-68s might be pulled from the Concourse line.
And don't forget about when they got pulled from the Sea Beach line as well.
I know! Bring back R68's to the N line! Let the circle-Q and the W have the slants!
We can keep the R32s though :D
::aghast:: You have BUDD Built, railfan window equipped, passing through enabled, bench seated, historic stainless steel wonders and you want to pass them up for some butt ugly, forgein built (some), smear-o-vision, transverse cab containing, non-passing through letting, 80's orange blinding bucket seat having, whale-like monstrocities? What are you thinking! I shell out $50 to ride the R32's on the Sea Beach. You have them in your back yard, but you go and demand the R68! What type of railfan are you?!
I prefer the clear railfan windows in the R-32s over those smear-o-vision railfan windows in the R-68s.
#3 West End Jeff
Fred says he likes the R-68s.:-)
I too might like the R-68s except for the smear-o-vision railfan windows.
#3 West End Jeff
R68s are BIG!!!! Ten car trainsets are really long...Jamaica Yards is huge. IRTs are more like home. CI Peter
I NEVER said take the Budd-built R32's off the N! I said "slants". Slants! You know, the R40's.
These cars:
Take a good hard look at that. That ain't no R32! They were NOT built by Budd. They were built by St. Louis Car Co. They were cheaply made with only the sides being made out of stainless steel and are now beginning to show their age. they had to have all those bars grafted onto them, because it was unsafe to pass through them. I have no problems with the all-stainless steel R32's. As I said before, they and the R143's are the only 60-foot cars that I like.
You question what kind of a railfan I am. What kind of a railfan are you? You think Amtrak's EMD F40 diesels are great. You want butt-ugly? How about ridiculously loud? Look no further than the retiring F40's! They make the R68 look like a work of art!
Sorry, I thought you just wanted to put the R68's back on the N with out regard to what they were displacing.
What's wrong with loud? As a railfan I prefer loud as it tells me when to put down my sandwitch and grab my camera. It also tells me to get off the tracks. F40's are not ugly, they are robust. I might have thought they were ugly at one point, but that was before I saw the GE Genisis units (although the new Phaze V paint job is going wonders for their image). Beauty is a "best" not a "good".
Anyway, I like the slants even better than the R32's. They have that full length railfan window and that really cool open air viewing gallery between every other car. The full length window allows one to sit down and see out the front. Very convienent. On my last NYCSubway trip I was able to share the window w/ some bussiness man behind me by crouching down. Riding a slant is like getting to ride a roller coaster for $1.50. Don't forget about that aerodynamically inclined front end. Hot stuff.
The R44/46/68 have no "life" in their front end. Its flat and uninviting. I am also not a fan of that 70's canted sides look (as seen on the DC Metro and I think MARTA). The cars generally look like they have a big frowney face on the front end.
Unless you bring your own chair, I'm not sure how you can see out the R-40 railfan window while seated -- none of the R-40 seats face the window.
The R-40 railfan window is very narrow, which is why you had to crouch down. The railfan window on all other cars that have them is wide enough for two people to easily stand side-by-side. (The only downside is that, except on the Redbirds, there's nothing decent for the second arrival to hold onto. But that goes on the R-40, too, especially if you're crouching.)
Don't get me wrong -- I'll take an R-40 any day over an R-68. But the R-40 and its close R-40M cousin are the only cars currently in service that I would call truly ugly, inside and out. They're also noisy and uncomfortable. (And please don't get the R-40M confused with the R-42, currently the most handsome car in the B Division.)
Incidentally, I was on an R-40 N train last Sunday whose railfan window wasn't latched properly. Unfortunately, I was too chicken to open it a bit and take pictures while cruising into QbP. (They wouldn't have come out, anyway; we were riding into the sun.)
(And please don't get the R-40M confused with the R-42, currently the most handsome car in the B Division.) Which is the most handsome car?
your post does not make that clear. (though i think most peopls would say 40M)
The R-42 is handsome and elegant.
The R-40M is gruesome. (Just look at the signbox. Ugh!)
I personally think that it is the other way around...
The T/O would've probably gotten out and locked it and give a strange look as if you had a key or were a TSS.
I kind of like the long window on the R40's, but like you said, it's bad when there are two people.. BTW do the R40 have the most uncomfortable seats in the system or what.
"And please don't get the R-40M confused with the R-42, currently the most handsome car in the B Division.)"
HUH? 42 and 40 are the same cars.
N Bwy
No they aren't. They're similar, but different. An R40M has more in common with it's slant nosed brother than it does with an R42.
OH MY GOD! THEY TOOK THOSE LONG DOORS OUT! What a SHAME!
N Bwy
the front ones are still there
>>BTW: Mike, I'm going to assume that "Morots" was a mis-spelling.<<
Train Dude, Morot isn't French for motor is it ? I noticed a couple of other typos. Maybe he's using Salaam old keyboard !!
Bill "Newkirk"
"ARDIMILLO"
See Mike, now you are going to write me another E-mail accusing me of being a jerk and of not posting any facts. So that there is no misunderstandings between you and me:
FACT #1
The cars are 75' long and not 74 feet long.
FACT #2
All NYCT subway cars are calibrated to accelerate at the same rate, 2.5 mph/sec. In addition, they all are designed to have the same balancing speed.
FACT #3 While technically not a railfan in the purest sense, NYC did elect John Hylan. He was an ex-BRT motorman who was virtually single-handedly responsible for theconstruction of the IND subway.
BTW: What are the laws of normal probability?
See Mike, now you are going to write me another E-mail accusing me of being a jerk and of not posting any facts.
So what's this, then, Fact #0?
Dan
Thanks for helping, but Selkirk already answered my question in a much nicer way. Good thing you caught that typo too, I was able to properly punish the offending hand by sticking with a salad fork. I am also impressed with your articulate use of HTML. After all, presentation is everything.
Anyway, if you remember back to basic high school probability class you will recall the Normal Distribution curve. This curve and its shape is widely applicable to many phenomia including human perferances and preformance. Putting interest in rail transport along the X axis and a %age of the population of public officials along the y axis we can get a good stand in for public officials views regarding rail transit in the shape of a bell curve. Mostly people don't care (about 63% or one standard dievation from the mean). At one end of the curve you have Robert Mosses who was very anti-rail. At the other end you get the inverse Robert Mosses who is very pro-rail/railfan. I was pointing out that one would think that by this time we would have gotten someone in power who would mandate something non-transverse cabs for public visability out the front and whose view was that transit can be more than something that gets people around, but something that can be fun.
Hey, here's a completely non-arguementative question for you. If the TA wasn't setting all the subway vehicles to the lowest common denominator, what would the real/theoretical acceleration values be? Has the TA ever asked the riding public via some sort of survey their preferanced regarding acceleration and comfort?
If the TA wasn't setting all the
subway vehicles to the lowest common denominator, what would the real/theoretical acceleration
values be? Has the TA ever asked the riding public via some sort of survey their preferanced
regarding acceleration and comfort?
That's a tough question for which to provide a definitive numerical
answer. It has to do with how DC traction motors are rated.
A 115 hp motor means it can be operated at nominal (600) voltage
for one hour with a shaft load of 115 hp and the total rise above
ambient temperature will not exceed 100 centigrade. In practice,
traction motors are not operated in this manner. Take the torque
that would be produced in this 1-hour condition. That is considered
the nominal torque of the motor, or 100%. During notch-up of
the controls, typical design value is 150%. Then the gearing is
designed to balance between acceleration rate and top speed.
The TA design is conservative, however the intent is that every
car should be able to meet the acceleration rate, even when fully
loaded. At crush load, the passengers would add about 30,000 lbs
to an R68, which is 93,000 lbs empty.
The best ballpark answer I could give is to look at PCC cars, which
use similar motor technology. They have 220hp per car and each
car weighs 36,000lbs empty and accelerates at 4.5 MPHPS. The
design balancing speed is 41 MPH. NYCT cars had a balance speed
of 50 MPH nominal, weigh 2-3 times as much, and have 460hp per car,
so 2.5 MPHPS is probably conservative but not unreasonable.
However, during the great fleet castration, had the TA obtained lower
balancing speeds by changing the gear ratios (rather expensive),
as opposed to disabling field shunting, then the cars would probably
be capable of acceleration rates in the 3.0-3.5 range.
Thank you.
Hey Train Dude, when you post in big fat fancy fonts, Close the damn font tags before the end of the message! An inflated response index looks ugly.
- Lyle Goldman
Actually, Lyle, if you do a "View Page Source" you'll find that he did... not sure why it's not working.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee, Lyle, I thought I had closed all of the tags. I profoundly apologize for offending your delicate sense of order and neatness.
My one concern is what will happen when the shiny new cars, all bought at once, will all need to be replaced all at once. How will the cost be funded since every new type of car has gone up exponentially.
The same problem the LIRR has with the electric fleet.
This sounds like a purchase of the cars needed for the realization of the plan to upgrade the entire system to computerized signaling and operation of the trains. (Of course this won't help the IRT unless the R142 is computer-ready also.) This will lead to better spacing and speed control to improve traffic and TPH. As I've heard over and over this week, this will not lead to a loss of T/O or C/T since they plan on keeping them on board. Who knows if that will ring true or not, we'll see. It is smart to have someone on the trains to act in emergencies and people caught in the doors.
I can't wait to see it happen on the L line! This is the most logical step forward for the system, and needs to be done soon.
I'm assuming that some of these cars being ordered will be used on the elusive 2nd Ave line if it ever gets built... Anyone know if that contract will include a separate order for cars?
As long as these 3500 cars are purchased over a period of time, the potential of having to retire this entire fleet at the same time should be fixed. But, who knows what new subway technology we'll have in 50 years? Maybe we'll want to upgrade to a newer fleet....
JR
I can't see the logic of scrapping perfectly good cars to accomodate CBTC. I'd think the logical thing to do would be to phase it in as the older cars reach retirement age.
Besides, if the entire system is equipped with R143-like type cars, I'll have to give up being a railfan. What a bore.
I'll second that opinion.
Sort of like the LIRR has become. It had so much character when you never knew what engine would be on the train. Now they all look the same. When you've seen one you've seen them all.
Seems to me that the LIRR was predictable for more than 10 years. GP-38 Diesel on the east and either a GP-38 diesel or a power pack on the west. All except the C-1 Bi-Level train.
All the engines looked different and yes you always had a GP38-2 on the east, but they had different paint schemes. On the west not only did you have different paint schemes, you had GP38's, FA1, FA2, F7A, F9A, MP15, MP15AC, and they all had different characteristics. It was ALOT more interesting. Yes the new trains look good and are comfortable from a commuter standpoint (the whole point of the railroad), but from a railfan point, it has become a lot more unexciting. You've seen one, you've seen almost all of them.
The new cars are anything but bores! They only have a few problems, such as a lack of both forward-facing seats and railfan windows.
- Lyle Goldman
No they are not bores, but is the entire system had them they would be. There would be no variety.
They'll be bores when all you see is them!
The MTA has a fiduciary duty to its bondholders (not to mention a moral obligation to its taxpayers) to act in a financially prudent way. There is no way any cars are going to be retired while they are still operationally in good shape.
There is also no way the whole system needs CBTC ASAP. Numerous lines aren't going to exceed 20 tph in most of our lifetimes. In particular, Dekalb Ave sees 48 tph in the rush hour direction right now and the 2 bridge tracks and 1 tunnel track could handle close to 90 without CBTC. The CPW line also is way under capacity. The Fulton St line is higher but still only 22 tph max. Even the Queens Blvd local track is only at 20 tph. CBTC wouldn't help the relay problem at Continental.
So I can see A, B, C, D, G, N, and Q trains being places to use non-CBTC equipment for a very long time (also of course, J, M, Z, though not 75' equipment).
How on earth does Fulton have more service than CPW? Fulton has only the A/C; CPW has the A/B/C/D.
Additional capacity would come in handy on just about all of the IRT lines. If CBTC can bring 40 tph to the IRT, it's a very good thing. Unfortunately, we won't see it until the R-62(A)'s are all gone.
UNFORTUNATELY? OH PLEASE!! how many future motormen or people who dream of being a Motorman want CBTC? the idea of automatic trains is stupid first of all, and it wont work. subway is too old and it will cost 2 much money that MTA does not have! besides they can do it to the L because it shares no tracks with any other line. But try doin that to the E where it shares tracks with the F. HA i dont think so!
if CBTC does make entire subway ATO, i will be retired or dead before that and i am only 19 so lets not get excited yet. i really dont want it anyway. i have talked to passengers about this, and they honestly would ABANDON the subway if it happens
You're very confused. Who said anything about automatic trains? CBTC is a modified signal system that (supposedly) increases capacity. That's all it is. I know of some lines where increased capacity would come in handy.
I've made some controversial statements on the board, but this wasn't one of them.
yea ur right, but R142s, R142As and R143 are capable of ATO. so what do u think MTA is getting at........
Sure the new cars are capable of ATO, and certainly ATO is a massively radical way of doing business that may never come to pass in any of our lifetimes, but CBTC has tremendous returns for us passengers even without ATO.
Certainly there are big potential capacity gains in tph. Maybe they'd even get rid of most of the timers if they had software as a backup safeguard to make sure the T/O wasn't going too fast.
Can we examine three key words in Train Dude's first sentence? "Governor", "committed", and "future". This is political rhetoric, or blather if you prefer. The governor does not act alone, or is in office forever, or have unlimited money to spend. Anyone on this board taken a ride on the Second Avenue line lately?
I never cared for the 75' length, but I think it is a lot worse
to waste money on unnecessary car replacement. People seem to think
that just because it is a "capital" expenditure the money comes from
some magical place. These stainless steel carbodies should be good
for at least 40 years.
What happens if the TA decides to scrap leased cars prematurely?
I would think the deal is written such that the lessor doesn't
really lose money. For example, maybe it is a 30 year lease
and if the TA backs out early, they pay the remainder. Does anyone
know the particulars?
>>> For example, maybe it is a 30 year lease and if the TA backs out early, they pay the remainder <<<
That is the essence of a lease. The lessor is guaranteed the full amount of money stated in the lease, and the lessee is guaranteed the use of the equipment for the entire term of the lease. The lessee has no right to return the equipment and say I don't want it any more and walk away. Individuals may be able to get away with it with an automobile because the cost of suing is not worth it to a lessor for the difference between the remainder of the lease and what he can sell the automobile for. It would be far different with a fleet of subway cars.
Tom
Am I the only one on here who "prefers" to ride the 75' cars?
It depends.
If I'm railfanning, the 75-footers had better stay away.
If I'm simply trying to get somewhere, I'm happy with anything -- a flatcar is good enough for me.
Not all railfans like the front window. The new 60' cars won't have one. Besides, my idea of a railfan window is a foward facing window seat on an R44/46/68. Looking out the side is as much fun as up front, and a lot more comfortable.
Obviously, many of us disagree.
When I look out the front, I follow the tracks and switches. I watch the homeballs. I see what, if anything, is up ahead. Only on PATH can I do that while seated. I can't see any of that while looking out the side.
If you enjoy looking out the side, be my guest -- the R-68's aren't going away any time soon. Me, I'll wait for an R-32.
Hey a flatcar would be great for railfanning also. Someone had mentioned on a post taking a fantrip in the subway in the 70's with flatcars.
No, I like the 75-footers better too, especially the R46 and R68. The only 60-foot cars I like are the R32 and the R143.
The R42 is the best 60' car in my book. In fact, I'm thinking of retiring the R27-R30 from my handle for the R42.
My vote goes to the R-32s. They just keep going and going and going.
So what do you like about the 40's series? I personally like the 38's.. at least at one time..
N Broadway Line
I like the front ends, railfan windows, their excellent speed, more comfortable (than the R40) seats and the fact they run on my line (J).
Of course not. The window seats on the 75-foot cars are much more comfortable than anything on a 60-foot car! In fact, when I go to work in the morning, I often pass up a Q Express so that I can stay on the Q Local in a comfortable seat!
- Lyle Goldman
There's a certain irony here, amid all the comments about saying bye-bye to the Redbirds -- or Rustbirds, if you prefer, and that suddenly the governor starts talking about a plan that could lead to the possible scrapping or selling some of the stainless steel fleet at about the same age as the R-16s left the premisis, but I think it sounds more like election year talk for the voting public.
Of course, if Pataki and the MTA were to actually commit to the construction of a full-length Second Ave. subway line, then they would need the extra cars and could at least keep the R-46 and R-68 trains in service for their expected 40-50 year lifetimes.
Nah, really folks ... it's plain old election year prattle. Much like Rudy's stadiums ... all talk, no commitment, all's forgotten after the cermonial lever-pulling festival ... sorta like the second avenue subway and all that money NY is (was) going to get as a result of September 11th ... all BS politics ... ignore that man behind the rollsign. :)
Can't order what you can't afford, but sure sounds good so close to November, eh?
Wouldn't it take longer to build the 2nd Ave subway than to order these cars? We'd have to store these cars somewhere until the 2nd Ave subway was built.
I agree, why scrap cars with at least 10 years of useful life in them? There is a short of cash at all levels of government, so why not use the money useware and cut back on the purchase of new 60' cars to a more prudent level???????
What does TPH mean? And are the R142A's computer-ready like the R143's are?
TPH means trains per hour. For example, a route that runs every 10 minutes has 6TPH since 6 trains would pass by in an hour. Total capacity on a particular track is 30 tph, and on a regular four track line, it is 60tph, 30 on each track. About the R142s being computer ready, I'm not that sure.
I've worked R142 systems and the trainset is loaded with computers. Kawasaki R142As are similar and the R143 is its cousin. Your question is probably 'Are R142As CBTC ready?' The answer is a 'probable yes.' The ports to all systems are there and would only require system hardware and new software. Problem is the A Division is not ready. CI Peter
The R-142 and R-142A are NOT CBTC compatible as delivered. That's not to sat that the CBTC can't be added later. Currently 4 R-68s (2500-2503) are equiped with CBTC and are undergoing testing.
and 2504 i would guess, right?
so are these not compatible with any thing else?
"and 2504 i would guess, right"
No! 2500-2501-2503-2502
They should be compatible with other equipment.
that was dumb of me,
would the other equipment be 68s or 143s
Where are they getting tested?
Static testing is being done in coney island. The idea is to see if the CBTC will interface with E-cam equipment. I suppose the running tests will be done on the F line as was done with the R-42s.
Are these cars marked with colored tape in a pattern so if we see that pattern on other cars we'll know the CBTC has been. If yes. what is the pattern and what color
I don't know if they wear any special markings. Just look for the numbers 2500, 2501, 2502 and 2503.
I've seen this set around on the old D and the new circle Q every month or so while travelling.
The Guv'na is a ass.
Lately on Subtalk, a lot of people have been posting subway pics. I'm assuming most of you use digital cameras. What camera do you guys have and do you ever worry about someone mugging you for you camera? Also, if you have manual settings, what are some of the settings that you use? (aperture, shutter speed, ISO...)
"(aperture, shutter speed, ISO...) "
Huh? what are those things? You point the camera and it takes the picture.
But if you buy one get one with at least 2.x Megapixels, mine at 1.2 mega pixels isn't quite good enough for most work, altough it is good eneough for the internet of for the monitor, where the best display is 96 Px, most are 72px.
Elias
OY
I am going to use me Minolta "Vectis S-1" whan I am in Chicago. Is takes ASP photos, Dose anyone and hint on how to take regule pics.
Robert
You mean APS or kodakally known as advantix, what do you mean by regular pics? 4 x 6? then yes you put the setting to NORMAL not WIDE or PANORAMA, I hope it helps. anymore questions about general photography ill be glad to answer.
I meen none Digital photograph. I have the Camera for five years now, and I never read the instrution to it. Most of the time I just put it to automatice and shot something. The photos alway came out good, but they were mostly just shot of people or thing stating still. I just read the instruction and found out what the different icon dose to the shot, I will be using the Sports I hope my friend desides to let me take his Digital Camera with me to Chicago, but the friend just upgraded to a 5mag pic. camera and he still doen not know how to uses it to well.
Robert
We use 35mm SLR here, with a Slide/Negative Scanner. its the only way to get any kind of quality. as for F stops or shutter speeds, one cannot have ONE setting, it depends onthe Situation at hand, lighting, film, etc.
Im gonna go scream in a pillow.
I got a Fuji FinePix 2600 Zoom. It's 2.1 megapixels. For $300, it's got a lot of features. I only bought it 3 or 4 weeks ago, so I still don't know all the settings on it. I got settings for different types of light (flourescent, incandesant, etc) and white balance for how dark or bright it is, and some other features. When I shoot outside in daylight I use 128x960 resolution, everything else I use the highest, 1600x1200. I don't use flash at all on the subway to not draw attention to myself.
This web site is good to decide what you want, they got reviews on everthing. That's where I decided mine.
Thanks, I already bought one, it's a Fuji as well, I'm just wondering what some of you guys do since the pics you guys take come out awesome. Did you ever fix the blurriness in your photos? (I think it was you...)
Yes, I did, look here
Nice, I like the motion effect in the south mezzanine picture.
I have an Olympus Camedia C3020 Zoom digital camera with 3.2 megapixel resolution...I usually change my settings and save them on my camerea by turning the "All Reset" feature off...I also make my file sizes smaller and use standard-quality instead of high quaility in most of my pics to get the most pics out of my memory cards...I currently have a `6MB and two 64MB cards...my 64Meg cards can hold up to 660 bad boys with the settings I compile...with my 16MB card, about 190. 98% of the time, I take a picture of a still object or a slow-moving object (e.g., a subway car) and I don't have to alter it or anything...half the time, I don't have the software to alter the ones that do need the alterations...
A camera for more than $400, that's a kick-ass cam...with MOV movie mode, I can make short clips of things...yesterday, I made a 30-second clip of the R62A leaving 74th St-Roosevelt on the 7...so-so movie, but a cool one...I have one with the Acela Express and one with an R32 Brightliner on the F line leaving 4th Av/9th St... it's an ok clip...my Acela clip is one of my better clips...
Thats about all of the main details in a nutshell...I will post one or two later today...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
I've got an Olympus C-3000z. I found it online at some store selling it for 300 dollars (bought it then), and next day it went up to 400. 3.3 megapixels, I take all my pics in 2048x1536. It normally holds up to like 90 of those. I mostly take Black and White stuff around the city, but sometimes do take subway shots, especially when it's a special train. I don't exactly recall my subway shot settings but I can tell you when I take black and white. If the object (like a car) is moving fast along Broadway let's say, I put my aperature high (like F11, to the max) and shutter to 4". Results are generally very nice, if you rest the camera on something. I take all my pictures with ISO 400. I hope this helps!
I don't worry about someone mugging me for my camera, because generally, I ride the subways with my camera from like 12PM to sometimes 9PM, so it's safe (I don't stay on the subways all that time, I'm just saying that's generally when I'm on it) Plus, I don't get off at places where I'm bound to be mugged. Play it smart and don't risk it.
I also have the C3000Z. I also always take photos at the highest resolution, 2048x1536, and then if I want to put them on my website, or show them here in Subtalk, I use photoshop or some other imaging software to reduce them down to a smaller, more managable, size.
Same, same.
I use the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-S75. I pretty much use the default settings. The only change I made since having thr camera was adding a 128MB memory stick to replace the standard 8MB stick. It's a great camera. Over Thanksgiving I visited a friend in Cincinnati and he was so impressed that he bought one the next day.
Wayne
I waited fifteen minutes this morning for a local at 67th ave.
At the same time, at least ten Manhattan bound express trains went by.
Is this really improved service or is the V really mean vacant?
Something was wrong! I have plenty of experience with the QB line and usually the wait is 6 minutes at most. If you waited fifteen minutes, they were mixed up at Continental. It has nothing to do with the V train replacing the G. It has always happened in the past.
Just wanted to let everyone know that I spotted an R143 undergoing testing on the F line at York Street. It arrived at 10:12 pm, was headed toward Jay Street and did not stop in the York Street station.
I was waiting for a Manhattan-bound train, with my back to the other track. My train started to pull into the station, and I noticed that a Coney Island-bound train was arriving at the same time (I love it when that happens!) I looked at my arriving train, and when I turned back to see the other train, I noticed that it was an R143. Eventually I recovered from the shock I was in and caught the last car number. The last car was numbered 8117, and I think it was a four car set. There was a T/O and another person (looking really bored) in the first car with the test equipment. There were black test cables run through the train, and none of the external displays were operating. I did notice the internal variable-messaging advertisement sign working though.
That train brightened up my ride home...literally...that's the first thing that got my attention was the bright interior... :)
Anyone know what the rest of the test route is? This looked like one of the initial tests of that car set. Motors, brakes, etc...
JR
It also was running on the F line last week during a railfan excursion of the system, using Avenue X yard and the Culver (F) line and the 6th Avenue line to get to 59th Street - Columbus Circle in the AM for the trip, and returning light to Avenue X (C.I.) Yard, again via the 6th Ave. and Culver lines in the PM ( a whole G.O. notice was issued about the trip)
Interestinq. I guess this means I'll see them more often on my commute!
Have any railfans been on them while they are testing?
Thanks!
JR
I was on 8101-8108 on the Canarsie line during the 30 days testing - beat "da GUV" by more than a month. Even got in the cab and had some fun playing with it (under LOTS of supervision) ... that was during its 30 day test on the L ... first trainset ...
They gave me a cab ride from after Myrtle Avenue to before ENY during the 30 day test and told me they could teach me how to run the thing in about 3 minutes. They didn't in the end but I got the basics.
Not all that much to it really, especially if you have prior operating experience and a modicum of depth perception to the markers.
Did it feel strange?:-) I mean, no "tch-sss" brake sounds, no moaning and groaning gear sounds, no throbbing compressors, etc.
Nope ... the 32's didn't make that kinda noise either. I DO miss the sound though, nothing on the railroad these days does that. Working the TA though was good for me, got me over all sorts of obsessions like that. :)
I doubt it was testing there. The F needs 600 feet of train; the R-143 can only provide 480.
It was probably just going to Coney Island. (I don't know why it would run on the F, though. From ENY, it would have to use the connection from Essex to B-L and change ends there. Wouldn't it be easier and faster to send it down Nassau and along the Sea Beach or West End?)
Both of you might be right!!
It could have been coming from ENY Yard, from J-2 track south of Essex, then switched over BJ-2 connector track to Broadway-Lafayette. However, the train would have to change ends at West 4th, not Broadway-Lafayette, cross from B-2 (6th Av N/B Local track) to B-4 (6th Av Exp N/B track), change ends then go B-4 to B-3 (6th Av Exp S/B track) then over to B-1 (F line 6th Av Local S/B track) to get to C.I.
At the same time it might very well have been testing on the F because, do remember, the R-143 cars are 60 feet long, and if it is a 10 car train, it would be 600 feet, to fit the length of the F line platforms (remember 60 foot R-32s operate on the line, 10 car trains each). And usually the test trains have the wires aboard, which connect testing computers aboard to the train's operating system to test the train system's operational abilities, and transmit and record the operational data to the computers aboard to evaluate the trains' performance during the testing.
The R-143 is in four-car sets. It can't run on the F unless you propose running 12-car trains(!) with two cars sealed off, but that's a waste of good cars.
It could have been doing general testing, nothing specific to the F. Come to think of it, isn't the middle track south of 18th Avenue designated a test track?
If it was an 8 car train testing, it could do simulated stops on the F line platforms at the 8 car markers (since they are 60 feet, like the 32s, they can make the proper 8-car marker stops, just similar to if there was an 8 car train of 32s). As for testing, B-3/4 middle track on the Culver is for high speeds testing, mainly during the very midday or the late nights, most of the time the track is used for put-in trains from Ave X yard, and light lay-ups returning to Ave X Yard (and the occasional Culver line local, in passenger service, given a express battery run from the dispatcher). Why do simulated stops on a middle track? Wouldn't it make sense doing simulated test stops on the local tracks with platforms and 8 car markers?
Who says the car was doing simulated stops? It passed through York without stopping, according to the original post.
Yes, but who says if the train was making simulation stops, it had to do every stop on the F line!! Tests don't make every stop on the lines they are tested on (once again, for clarification, if it was doing simulated stop testing, and as a point I NEVER SAID that was what the train was doing, I did say it might have been out doing that, never said it was!!). Anyway the train, if not testing, might have already finished testing somewhere, and simply was on it's way home to C.I.
Light trains are not supposed to stop in station unless they have no choice.
Ummm........if the train is doing SIMULATED STOPS, as ordered as part of the testing, it can and it will!! Do remember "school cars" (training trains) are light trains, and they DO make platformed station stops!!
It did not stop at York.
Of course I used to see it about twice a month in various locations.
No horn blow no simulated stops.
Also in school car I think most of our little trips were 'off the books'.
There were black test cables run through the train, and none of the external displays were operating.
What do those cables do?
I'm assuming that they connect to temporary sensors located in each car. I think that they closely monitor any irregularities in the motors, brakes, suspension, and balancing of the cars. They all run to a central station in the first car that probably records each parameter on something like an airline flight data recorder or a seismograph.
Perhaps someone can answer this from the testing team?
Aren't there supposed to be 5 car sets as well as the 4 car sets? Maybe that was the option order, or the R-160. After all, how do you replace 6ooft worth of R-40 on the diamond Q with 480ft worth of R-143?
The R143 will not be used to replace 600ft trains. It will be for east div trains that are 480 ft.
Have you read all the posts about Bloomberg riding the R-143 on the L the other day. News story quotes him as saying the city will purchase 3000 of these cars. You can run all of them on the Eastern division if you want to, "GO N", but I just sorta think that you might run out of room at ENY yard. Have you read all the posts about the R-38 being slated for scrapping? And the R-40 and R-42? Thats more cars than the Eastern Division has. Something has to replace 600ft worth of slants on the diamond Q, and your N train.
Once again: the plan for the R-143, at least as of a week ago, was to supplement the existing fleet. In effect, the R-143 will replace the R-27/30 that was retired a decade and change prematurely.
When the R-160 order comes in, that's when you'll see the older B Division cars depart.
Bloomberg, I suspect, was mistaken.
IM FINALLY BEING REPLACED!!!!!
JR
That train you saw at York st was a R-143 4 Car Train Set. 8117-8118-8119-8120. I saw that set today somewhere in the Rockaways. The R-143 Looks nice! :)
I have been interested in automatic/computerized train control for a while, whether it be that the computer would relay a message to the T/O and he would act accordingly, or if the computer would be the T/O itself. Either way, does anybody who is in with these programs know how much in numbers if possible train capacity would be increased, like do these programs give out any estimates as to the percentage that service can be increased? Right now, standard capacity as I understand is 30 tph. If these programs were to come out successful {big IF}, how much would capacity be increased. Would it be something like 40 tph or would it be greater than that?
Any response would be greatly appreciated.
In Sao Paulo, their system is fully automatic, and they currently run at 100 second headways (36 tph), but they have the ability to go to 70 sec headways. That's like 50 tph. Quite amazing.
Is it complicated, like is there a lot of switching involved, or are switches few and far between. BIG DIFFERENCE!
And are their trains longer or shorter than 600 ft?
Trains are 420 ft long, six-70 foot cars. And no, the system is not complicated- all lines are simple two tracks with crossovers between stations and different line don't share tracks. I was just pointing out the potential of CBTC/ATO.
New trackage, new switching systems, etcetera. They are not Thomas Edisons cousins...city subway system is a century old. CI Peter
city subway system is a century old.
And the city is four centuries old. I just can't imagine how it's possible to wire this city with electricity and with fiber optics, it just can't be done on a city so old!
When 50 more 747s crash into NYC (hopefully they won't) there will nothing left to be called old.
I'd bet on zero TPH if Microsoft did it ... either the computer would crash, or the train. :)
This aspect of Microsoft
Read this
(the clandestine usage recording) may cause severe labour relations problems between train drivers, management, and Microsoft who provided that capability...
-Robert King
What I found more interesting is the mention of Comcast's tracking of web usage. I find that extremely offensive as well - and, as you can tell from my email address, Comcast is my ISP.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know. I recieved several notices from several former @home customers switching to Comcast and it appears, from crossreferencing the people who've sent me notices to their physical locations, that they've got a fairly good sized chunk of the northeastern United States's market for high speed internet access. You really have to wonder what the Comcast people thought they were going to do with the data they were obtaining.
The Microsoft Network did the same thing in 1995; I know one of the Windows 95 Beta testers who discovered MSN, whose use was mandatory for reporting in on the Beta testing, was not only tracking web surfing but was also scanning his hard drive and sending little notices about its contents back to Microsoft. I don't know if the Microsoft Networkd still does any of that because I don't know of anybody who uses it anymore.
-Robert King
Well ... lemme put it to you THIS way ... we spotted that problem back last year when we developed the current IEClean 6.00 version and dealt with it handily back then. The article on what Media Player is doing is largely incorrect hysterics - perhaps I can say this because the solutions to the problems are something we've always handled in our own stuff.
As much as I'd love to paste a copy of our "newsletter" about it here, it'd be so off topic my posting rights here would be deservedly removed and thus I won't ... I'll email it to you directly instead. What I find MOST amusing about it all is that we tried to tell ZDNet, CNN and a raft of others about this a LONG time ago but nobody wanted to hear it then. So we just built our product to handle it and moved on. And ya wonder why I have such love for the slackers that call themselves "reporters" these days. :)
Thats why I use 6.4 and nothing later. I tryed 7 but it slowed down my computer waayyyyy tooooooo much.
I don't use Media Player at all. I use Winamp for all my music needs. For DVDs, I use the whatever DVD software came with the DVD player (I forget the name of it).
For music: I use my stereo.
For DVDs: I use the DVD player connected to the television in the family room.
No computers. No Microsoft. No BS.
-Robert King
What I do is I hooked up my computer to my stereo system, and I ripped most of my CDs on my computer. Now, I can queue as many songs as I want in whatever order and listen to all of it with no switching of CDs or whatever. For DVDs, I either watching them on my comuputer, or my friend comes over with his PS2 and we watch them on there.
I only use Media player for mpegs and avis. (music videos and movies) Winamp is MUCH better than Media Player because you can use the DFX pulg-in which doesn't work for Media Player.
(Right now, standard capacity as I understand is 30 tph. If these
programs were to come out successful {big IF}, how much would capacity be increased. Would it be something like 40 tph or would it be greater than that? Any response would be greatly appreciated.)
The theory is 40 tph for the signals for CBTC, in which the computers control the train. Since at every point the computer would adjust the speed of train B based on the speed and position of train A ahead of it, the trains could move faster and be closer together.
Dwell time and terminals would continue to limit capacity, however. Perhaps they could re-assign people from the conductors booth to the platform to shove people onto the trains.
Trains can certainly be closer together, which is good. I don't see however how they can go any faster just because of CBTC.
"I don't see however how they can go any faster just because of CBTC."
This is how they go faster:
A computer-operated train is faster than a human-operated train just like a calculator is faster at doing a problem like 741 times 8.5 than most humans are. What I mean by this is that the computer can assess the fastest possible safe speed that it can go at and thereby go at that speed, so it could keep automatically wrapping up {accelerating} until the last possible moment, which it figures out because of its automatic info as to how far the train or platform is in front of them, where it would start to decelerate. A human T/O is concerned about keeping his job, so he would slow early to be safe, especially since he isn't 100% sure as to what the last possible moment to start breaking is. However, a computer would be sure of the last possible moment and would therefore start breaking AT the last possible moment, meaning that between stops, trains travel quicker, because the computer knows where it is, where the train/platform in front of it is, and by the program, would know exactly the speed to go at so that it could come to a smooth stop on where it is meant to stop at.
Maybe, but remember that CBTC and computer-operated trains are two different things.
- Lyle Goldman
I know: CBTC however depends a lot on computers even though the T/O is human: the computers are relaying to him where everything is, and I'm not sure about this one, but an authorized speed he should be operating at. So really, more jurisdiction as to what the train is doing goes to the computer, in hopes to make the travel time faster.
"I'm not sure about this one, but an authorized speed he should be operating at."
No reason it shouldn't do that. All it takes is proper informtion about the route and properly written and tested software. Hard work but feasible.
Reading this article from November 2001, it says they want a light rail line opened in Atlanta by 2005. It was orignally planned for 2010. Who thinks it can be done? I don't think so at all. Planning is complete, but it'll take at least a year to design it, and as far as I know, no bidding has been done on the project.
Someone needs to pass the douche to the left hand side, cause that's some good stuff they're smoking.
Musical Youth....heeeyy I remember them...
Douche is something women use - perhaps they might try passing the 'dutchie'.
>>> Douche is something women use <<<
Also used by French men and women every so often, when the 4711 is no longer enough. :-)
Tom
I didn't know how to spell it, I didn't even realize what I spelled until after the fact!
The idea of a light rail line here in Ottawa was first thought up in 1998. I have now been riding the new O-Train two or three times a week since October. If there's enough political will and public support, it can happen. They're already planning a second line, and I have every confidence that it'll open around 2004-2005 as they've been saying it will.
Canada is in many ways a very differnt place from the United States...
Mark
My experience has been that that statement is true, but the differences are not always for the better.
Example: The American government provides funding for public transportation. As far as I know, at the state level, the state governments provide decent fiscal support as well. In Canada, the federal government provides nearly nothing for public transportation unless you want to include Via, and the government of Ontario just gave the TTC 62 million Canadian dollars for their capital budget this year which is better than the $0 that has been the practice over the past few years but still just a little on the short side.
-Robert King
$60 million CN is about US$14,000, right? :)
Whatever $60 million equates to in other currencies, it isn't enough; according to TTC figures, the $60 million alone would only cover one third the cost of rebuilding the CLRV fleet and that's just one capital project.
-Robert King
Yow ... and although this'll breeze right past a number of folks here who aren't up on Canadien politics, I wonder how much Quebec got ...
Fortunately the government of Ontario doesn't subsidize the STCUM (it's the federal government that takes their share of taxes from Ontario and elsewhere and sends PQ fat cheques). The federal government just doesn't subsidise urban public transportation. The only public transportation that receives federal money would be Via and the periodic loan guarentee for Air Canada. I suppose public transportation could be federally funded in Quebec to some degree depending upon how the PQ allocates the money they get in their transfer payments. The provincial government in Quebec is reasonably good about providing transportation funding to the STCUM, certainly much, much better than the government of Ontario is to the TTC.
-Robert King
It's a shame that TTC has to fend for itself (or not manage to owing to the shortage) ... then again, look what Mulroney did for CN ... and having not learned the lessons of BritRail and CN, here we go again with history not learned with respect to Amtrak ... but yeah, I know the score and it bites ...
If, and I don't know why I'm using that word given the near certainty of it, there is another fare increase (they seem to be every one or two years these days, no wonder why too) this summer, it's expected to put the fare recovery of operational costs up to about 85% from the current 82%. The city of Toronto made a promise that they'd subsidise 20% of the TTC's operational costs, requiring the TTC to obtain the lion's share, that 80%, from fares but they haven't been sticking to it on account of their own financial difficulties. Again, these have been largely caused by the provincial government, and to a lesser extent the government of Canada. The Toronto budget riot is in progress now and we'll find out shortly if the police get their annual budget increase at the expense of the TTC as usual, or if the TTC are actually going to get an additional 4.5 million dollars as some have been suggesting.
Anyways, things like the fisbowl rebuilding program and the purchase of some other buses from Flyer were also paid for by fares - and bus purchases should be capital expenditures. I don't know if the light CLRV rebuild or the H4 subway car overhaul was paid for with money from fares but I wouldn't be surprised if fares covered at least parts of the costs.
Wisely, the Halton County Radial Railway are preserving the stickers in the subway cars and rebuilt PCCs that say "The operation of this transit system is financially assisted by the Government of Ontario". They aren't found in any TTC vehicle now because of of the nonfunding situation. In the rare cases where these stickers haven't been torn off vehicles, it is because someone has taken a marker to them and modified them like this: "The operation of this transit system is financially assisted by the Government of Ontario" I'm not joking.
-Robert King
Wow ... yeah, that word "if" seems to be an oxymoron ... either the fare goes up or service goes down if there isn't funding to be had elsewhere ... hope TTC has the ability to explain WHY ...
They've been explaining it...
The "It's big, it's real and it's heading our way" advertisments show pictures of a subway train (H4s), a bus (fishbowl) and a streetcar (CLRV) with the numbers in millions of dollars for how much needs to be spent on those three types of vehicles over the next 10 years and the copy text explains how a total of 3.3 billion dollars (including the set of numbers for vehicle rebuilding and replacement) are needed over the next decade just to maintain present service levels. What isn't said directly in those ads but is implied is that those figures don't allow for any service expansions and that if any less than 3.3 billion is received, service cuts are inevitable.
At the moment, the way the provincial government and the city of Toronto want to deal with this is to split the 3.3 billion equally among the three levels of government:
City of Toronto: 1.1 billon over 10 years
Provincial government: same
Federal government: same - but they are the only group holding out.
So, the "It's big, it's real and it's heading our way" posters have been modified with a sticker saying "Funding update" with the three levels of government listed, Ontario and Toronto having check marks next to them and Government of Canada with a question mark. There are other posters that have copy of a letter sent to the federal government, cosigned by the mayor and the TTC chairman, requesting that they follow up on many, many broken funding promises...
The MTA in New York at least gets some reasonably sized funding from state and federal government. We should be so lucky here.
-Robert King
Well, given our new "Enron" form of government and the collapse of investor confidence as a result, there's some tough times coming down the pipe here as well. Hopefully things will turn around soon enough that funding can be assured ... it's a rough time for the ouija board players though ... here's hoping the money can be found in Ontario as well as New York to at least keep things going ... expansions are kinda hard to consider at the moment.
Well, it actually CAN be done!!!
Just eliminated the United States Government from the scene...i.e., Federal subsidies.
San Diego Trolley's first line from downtown to San Ysidro was built without a penny of Federal money. And it took about one year at most to get it up and running!!!
Now their East Line was subsidied by UMTA (now FTA) and the first segment out to 47th/Euclid took about two and a half years to get up and running!
Even a HEAVY RAIL line could be built, in NEW YORK CITY of all places in two years*.
*If the years of construction was any years from 1904-1948.
And see how a capitalist society distroys things.
In today's DN they have a picture of the wrecked PATH train in the WTC station. It shows the car off its trucks and on the platform.
Was this caused by the collapse of the towers or was this done by PATH work crews when the area was uncovered?
Note: The picture is in print only. I could not find it in the online edition.
Very confusing picture when compared against the 3 in Newsday the other day. It doesn't look like it's been moved from where it was in the Newsday pictures, but in the Newsday pictures there doesn't seem to be a platform underneath the train.
Also, given the superstructure still in place above the train, it's hard to think they've lifted it with a crane and moved it yet.
If the MTA had a stock, would you invest in it?
What If Congress actually stops supporting Amtrak, will the MTA take over the Acela?
Which MTA Pulled Old Subway Line or Extension would you want a comeback for? (etc, 3rd Avenue Line, NX, etc....)
1- The MTA...with a STOCK??? OMG, I don't think so...
2- I don't think the MTA would have neither enough financial resources nor the knowhow to run an operation like Amtrak's Acela express...I don't think that an intrastate agency should bother taking over an interstate operation just because the MTA is so large and has the money, or even close to it....
3-Third Avenue El! Third Avenue EL!
okay, I haven't said it loud enough...
Bring back the Third Avenue El!!!
We need that damn thing back, with the ridership boom on the Bx55 and diesel fuel being guzzled with them damn articulateds (I love articulateds, don't get me wrong...), we need something that is fast, reliable, and won't ruin the streets with its weight and its tires...like the crosstown Bx19 and other heavy-vehicle traffic has done to the asphalt on E 149th St, exposing the underlying streetcar rails before DOT pulled them up...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
2- I don't think the MTA would have neither enough financial resources nor the knowhow to run an operation like Amtrak's Acela express...I don't think that an intrastate agency should bother taking over an interstate operation just because the MTA is so large and has the money, or even close to it....
Okay, so if you don't like an intra-state organisation running trains interstate, how about merging the MTA, NJT and whatever they have in Conneticut. Then it would be an interstate organisation. Perfect for running express trains.
ConnDOT -thats the name for Connecticut MTA.
CT Transit - Connecticut Bus company
Connecticut Company -connecticut bus operator before the CT Transit, back then when Fishbowls ruled.
>>>Okay, so if you don't like an intra-state organisation running trains interstate, how about merging the MTA, NJT and whatever they have in Conneticut. Then it would be an interstate organisation. Perfect for running express trains.
I'd think that'd be a bit too much to me...just a bit too much...having three large TAs to merge into one super TA...that'd be scary...idk...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The MTA is a Inter state agency. What is Metro-North? Why is there a MTA Police station at the Stamford Connecticut Train Station?
I would but only after we expropriated all of Bill Gate's money and began a truely economic democracy here, a Marxist society. And since I'm I communist I have different motives for investing.
FROM EACH ACCORDING TO HIS ABILITY
TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS NEED
And what would you invest. Do you consider investing your need?
At the same time, if your slogans were to be the case I'd declare that I'm only able to post on Subtalk and I have a need for a private jet I woud do the posting from :-)
Arti
"According to their need" has had some interesting interpretations. For example:
Dear kindhearted friends ...
Now that the holiday season has passed, please look
into your heart to help those in need. Enron
executives in our very own country are living at or
just below the seven-figure salary level ... right
here in the land of plenty. And as if that weren't bad
enough, they will be deprived of it as a result of the
bankruptcy and current SEC investigation.
But now, you can help! For only $20,835 a month, about
$694.50 a day (that's less than the cost of a
large-screen projection TV), you can help an Enron
executive remain economically viable during his time
of need. This contribution by no means solves the
problem, as it barely covers their per diem, but it's
a start.
Almost $700 may not seem like a lot of money to you,
but to an Enron executive, it could mean the
difference between a vacation spent in DC, golfing in
Florida, and a Mediterranean cruise. For you, seven
hundred dollars is nothing more than rent, a car note,
or mortgage payments. But to an Enron executive, $700
will almost replace his per diem. Your commitment of
less than $700 a day will enable an Enron executive to
buy that home entertainment center, trade in the
year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari, or enjoy a weekend
in Rio.
HOW WILL I KNOW I'M HELPING?
Each month, you will receive a complete financial
report on the executive you sponsor. Detailed
information about his stocks, bonds, 401(k), real
estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed
to your home. You'll also get information on how he
plans to invest his golden parachute. Imagine the joy
as you watch your executive's portfolio double or
triple!
Plus upon signing up for this program, you will
receive a photo of the executive (unsigned -- for a
signed photo, please include an additional$50.00). Put
the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other
peoples' suffering.
HOW WILL HE KNOW I'M HELPING?
Your Enron executive will be told that he has a
SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of
need. Although the executive won't know your name, he
will be able to make collect calls to your home via a
special operator just in case additional funds are
needed for unexpected expenses.
YES, I WANT TO HELP!
I would like to sponsor an Enron executive.
My preference is checked below:
[ ] Mid-level Manager
[ ] Director
[ ] Vice President (Higher cost; please specify which
department)
[ ] President (Even higher cost; please specify which
department)
[ ] CEO (Contribution: Average Enron janitor monthly
salary x 700)
[ ] Entire Company
[ ] I'll sponsor an Exec most in need. Please select
one for me.
SPECIAL LIMITED TIME OFFER
Already an Enron supporter? Don't worry, in this
troubled economy, there are many executives who need
your help. Ford today is laying off 35,000. The
NASDAQ is deflated. Now you can show your patriotism
and do something about it. The Invisible Hand will
allow supporters to substitute executives from any
downtrodden company listed on ****edcompany.com.
You will never own a Bentley, wear hand-tailored silk
shirts, or have a gentleman's gentleman; why deprive a
worthy executive from ascending, and more importantly,
from maintaining the lifestyle he so richly deserves?
Imagine the feeling of satisfaction, the pure joy of
knowing that your sponsor ex-executive at the former
spiltmilk.com will be able to have his caviar and eat
it too.
*It's just that easy -- do it now!*
Please charge the account listed below ___________ per
day and send me a picture of the Enron executive I
have sponsored, along with my very own Enron "Keep
America Strong, Sponsor an Enron Executive: Ask Me
How!" T-shirt to wear proudly.
Your Name: _______________________
Telephone Number:_______________________
[ ] MasterCard [ ] Visa [ ] American Express [ ]
Discover
Account Number: _______________________
Exp. Date:_______
Signature: _______________________
Mail completed form to "The Invisible Hand" or call
1-900-2MUCH now to enroll by phone. Note: Sponsors are
not permitted to contact the executive they have
sponsored, either in person or by other means
including, but not limited to, telephone calls,
letters, e-mail, or third parties. Keep in mind
that the executive you have sponsored will be much too
busy enjoying his free time, thanks to your generous
donations.
Contributions are not tax-deductible.
GGGGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDD one! LOL
And since I'm I communist I have different motives for investing.
Now isn't that special.
They tried that in Russia, it failed, YOU LOSE President Bush, fresh from calling North Korea part of an "Axis Of Evil" is sending North Korea food so the people don't starve in that worker's paradise. Why?? -- Because it's what TRUE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLICS do. BTW, South Korea is one of the most productive societies in the world, with plenty for all who are willing to work for it and a social welfare system for those who are truly unable to work for whatever reason. Why can't North Korea do this-- something in the water??? NO NO NO --- more like something in the government!!!!
FROM EACH ACCORDING TO HIS ABILITY
TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS NEED
Translation:
The most productive members of society work their butts off. The least productive members then justify stealing from them.
Alan Glick
(FROM EACH ACCORDING TO HIS ABILITY
TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS NEED )
Works for about 30 years, if most of the population believes in it and you have a little terror to motivate the rest. It then degernerates into:
FROM EACH ACCORDING TO HIS STUPIDITY
TO EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR GREED
See the Soviet Union post-1970.
The most productive members of society work their butts off. The least productive members then justify stealing from them.
Sounds like the US to me. Can you say "Enron"?
-- Tim
If the MTA had a stock, would you invest in it?
Heck yes - it makes at least as much of a profit as the dot com's I invested in ;-)
I'd save the brokerage and commission fees and just leap out the window. :)
From the New York Times article:
New York City and New York State are far and away the largest debtors in the nation, outside the federal government. The city has $42 billion in loans outstanding, and the state has $38 billion. No one else is even close, the State of California running a distant third, at $25 billion.
Now you know why the 2nd Ave Subway hasn't been built in 70 years.
--Mark
Quite so. As I've said early and often, the IND First System ballooned the City's Rapid Transit Debt. The City couldn't stand the idea that private companies, who contributed gobs of their own capital to the Dual Contracts, could make a profit from the subway system.
And as and after the CIty strained the Rapid Transit Debt to its limits, it spent and borrowed freely on other priorities.
From the New York Times article:
New York City and New York State are far and away the largest debtors in the nation, outside the federal government. The city has $42 billion in loans outstanding, and the state has $38 billion. No one else is even close, the State of California running a distant third, at $25 billion.
Now you know why the 2nd Ave Subway hasn't been built in 70 years.
It's not a problem at all. The city can just declare municipal bankruptcy, the nation's taxpayers will end up bailing it out financially, and in response the federal government will put city spending under extremely tight control. Enormous cuts can be made in the city's preposterous levels of Medicaid and social-service spending, and transportation projects like Second Avenue won't be left having to scrounge for crumbs. It's a win-win situation.
No, the nation's taxpayers may take on some or all of the burden of the making good on City bonds to protect those who leant the CIty money on the assumption the City would pay it back.
After that the City would be run by elements New Yorkers hate even more than the State.
A bankruptcy commission would take control of all the City's tax revenues as well as controlling its spending. It could well demand that the subways be self-sustaining and that marginal services be cut.
And why do you assume that the spending you don't like will be deleted (social services) and the spending you do like (Second Avenue Subway) will be increased?
The idea that bankruptcy would be a "win-win" situation reminds me of the guys in my Army battalion who used to ask me to help them get orders for Vietnam because "anything has to be better than this s**t!"
Does anybody think when the R-38 goes and the R-44 goes, will the R-160 replace them?
When are R160's to be ordered, and what will they look like?
duplicates of the R-143, without the bugs.
Seems to me the R143 is practically bug free but in my opinion, it didn't pass the 30 day test fairly. If the computer reports a bug and it turns out there isn't one, isn't that a broken computer? That means it isn't trouble free.
I don't care what the official rules of the test were, but the automated displays and announcements failed, IMO, when service was split due to a GO. The entire system was turned off; there was no identifying information anywhere on the train. That's not a big deal on the L. It is a big deal on the M. It's also a big deal that we New Yorkers paid a lot of money for an expensive bit of electronics that can't even handle a short-turn.
It COULD have been handled if it had been entered into the system. That's a wiglet failure, not a technical one. :)
If what was entered into the system? All of the L stations were entered into the system -- how do you think the train makes station identification announcements?
So the stations are all programmed. What's missing is the ability for the crew to manually remove regular stops from the program. The eliminated stops would be dimmed on the strip map, the "next stop" announcements would jump over all skipped stops, and the displayed/announced destination would reflect the last programmed stop.
If that's asking too much (and I don't think it is), then, at the very least, the system should allow the automated announcements to be disabled without also turning off the route displays. Even the door chimes weren't operating!
It's a design failure.
Oh well ... I guess we'll have to string 'em up then. :)
Greenberger:
IDK if it holds true on the R143s, but on the R142s if the Door Warning button is not pressed, then you will not hear the chime. Did the C/R press the door warning button?
There were no automated announcements at all. I don't know if she didn't press the button or if the button wasn't working.
I know I've heard the R-142 chime without the "Stand clear" announcement. I guess the C/R pushed the announcement button and cut it off immediately with the chime.
Do you know why the R-142 chime sometimes comes out in reverse? IME, it's been happening quite frequently lately.
R142s have so many CPUs comm with eachother in a ten car trainset LAN that some things can't keep up speed and others get mixed up. The canned announcements are NOT instantaneous...sometimes they can take twenty seconds to come up. CI Peter
What bugs in the 143's? Are you actually referring to the 142's?
>>What bugs in the 143's? Are you actually referring to the 142's?<<
I don't think the R-143s had any serious "bugs". The R-142As took the brunt of that during the testing. That's why the 30 day test worked out like a charm.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was duly impressed ... you were there too. But someone complained because the clairvoyance module wasn't installed for a short turn. :)
The R160 hasn't even been designed yet, let alone ordered. IMHO, they'll look like R143's.
The plan, as I understand it, is that the R-160 is the death knell for the R-38, 40, 40M, 42, only some 44s (the oldest I would guess)...the new door enabler 44s will more than likely stick around.
I really hate to brought this up and I love redbird so much. The sadess part will be saying good bye to the redbird and seeing them living with the fishes. I will misses them. Oh man, This part make me cry. Redbird fans, I feel for u guys. : (
Any subtalkers planning on easing the pain by taking up scuba diving?
Mark
But is the water poluted?
I doubted that Delaware coast will be poluted due to leftover battery acid.
where are they dumping them? and is there anyway i can get some of the enamel number plates from the sides of them/??
I tried to form this line several months
ago... MTA just wouldn't bite (fishes pun intended)
south ferry U can kiss the RAILFAN WINDOW goodbye too !!
& pleas note : most subtalkers R transverse closed blocked off
no view happy addicts !! see you this summer with a few leftovers !
south ferry U can kiss the RAILFAN WINDOW goodbye too !! gone !
& pleas note : most subtalkers R transverse closed blocked off
no view happy addicts !! see you this summer with a few leftovers !
>>where are they dumping them?<<
Off the coast of Delaware.
I read somewhere that divers visited a couple of cars and when shining a spotlight inside found a couple of fishes being mugged by a phirana and in another car a forlorn wide mouth bass was begging for handouts. Sorry Charlie !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Was anyone looking out the railfin window?
Take a guess.:-)
Sallamallah
this summer
if you have a big backyard im sure they would let you take one. lol.
Im not kidding, they just want to get rid of them, they dont care where they go as long as they are gone.
They're not being sold to anyone because of asbestos concerns.
>>>if you have a big backyard im sure they would let you take one<<<<
As matter of fact, I would really love to have one in my back yard. The Sad part, is I don't own a house with 300,000 Sq feet yard yet. I don't know if I ever will, unless a $100 Billion jackpot come into my hand. Ryan C, my buddy, when it came to a huge cash in ur pocket. Everything is possible.
A backyard isn't enough. An R-33 isn't at home without its 7th Avenue express tracks.
if you have a big backyard im sure they would let you take one.
Not really... but even if they would, just try getting a zoning variance for one. I've been that route - unsuccessfully - in rural North Carolina twenty years ago when I wanted to park a couple of well-insulated ex-PFE reefers in my back yard for use as storage buildings. Even though the nearest house to mine was a half mile away I wasn't able to bring them in, because a hog farmer a couple of miles up the road objected.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now now ... shouldn't be calling good old boys names. :)
Who could I contact for a redbird? I have a big backyard.
Don't curse me out on this, but I think the MTA is taking the cheap way out of this 'bird situation. I mean, think about it, even though the MTA claims the asbestos won't hrm the ocean or the little fishies down there, you have to admit, it's kinda awkward way to get rid of something that was so useful for nearly 40 decades, wouldn't any of you agree? Besides, I'm sure any true redbird fan would be willing to pay TOP DOLLAR for any of those redbirds! I'm out.
Actually, I feel this reef thing is just a way to cover up the fact that they are dumping in the ocean. Fish were able to reproduce and find places to live way before they started "dumping" trains into the ocean.
Fish were able to reproduce and find places to live way before they started "dumping" trains into the ocean.
True, but reefs do help the process, and with extensive fishing the reefs will help restock the fish population. Also, the reefs make excellent places for recreational divers - I'm not one myself, but there are far worse things to do than exploring the ocean floor and enjoying the fish.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would have to agree with that. Just think of how cool it would be to dive down to the trains 10 to 20 years from now.....Not the Titanic, but pretty cool anyway. (I don't know how much would be left by then, but the diving would be cool.)
>>>Besides, I'm sure any true redbird fan would be willing to pay TOP DOLLAR for any of those redbirds!<<<
Unless one of us hit the jackpot, its possible :)
I need contact INFO.
GOOD BYE RAIL FAN WINDOW VIEW !!
Amen!
yep
I heard because of something concerning the car length that the Railfan windown will be kept and the cabins wont be full width. Is that true? Or will the full width cars remain
What I heard is that the single car (to make 11 cars) will be be at one end and will be left as the 1/3 cab. I don't know what will happen to the car at the other end which will be part of the 5 car set.
What you heard is most likely wrong. Based on my experiences and conversations on Tuesday, it appears that the Manhattan end will definitely have a transverse cab. The Flushing end might or might not.
On the trips I made on that train on Tuesday, the full-width cab was on the Flushing end. I would suggest removing it altogether, unless, FSSR, they plan on making the 7 line OPTO, which would not only be inconvenient, but just plain stupid. Removing the full-width cabs would also increase capacity and give straphangers an opportunity to move between cars freely.
Yes, on Tuesday it was at the Flushing end, but that put the transverse cab at the wrong end of the middle car to be of use to C/R's. (I don't know why the C/R can't operate five cars from the Flushing end. Sure, boards would have to be moved -- big deal.) The various TA guys up front seemed to agree that the train should/would be turned around. I don't know what its current status is.
The transverse cabs at either end serve no crucial need, but the T/O's like them. I agree that the additional passenger space (and the railfan window) would be nice, but I don't know if the TA is willing to go through the trouble.
Given that the C/R has to move back and forth from side to side, his transverse cab is a very nice feature, especially when the train is crowded. I can't imagine it'll be removed.
oh .............the TOs b like em !!
Good here is another point for getting rid of the Transverse cabs at Operating ends (someone please correct me if am wrong on "Operating ends"). More passenger space and in rush hour you need every square inch. also the more pasengers you have on boared the more money you are making. In the end, Transverse cabs at the ends are a waste of money no matter how you put it (2 pounds of metal will save some dollars in the manufacturing process). Note; I am not saying that transverse are bad at the middle conductor car.
Were door controls installed on both sides when the R-62/62As went to full-width cabs, or did they remain only on the same side as the T/O's controls?
They are on both sides.
Thanks.
I think it'll be strictly how the yard feels like making them. When the line is completely R62A, they will have 5 car sets and singles. So you might see 2 5-cars and a single somewhere in the middle or end, or 1 5-car with 6 singles at the end or all around it or just all singles.
Unless some of the transverse cabs are folded up, you won't see two fives and a single -- that would leave passengers in the single trapped. (Even on the 75-footers, nobody's trapped -- the storm door window is designed to pop out if pushed hard, according to Train Dude.)
The transverse cab can't just be folded. They'll need significant modifications to remove the conductors panel. I doubt they'll want to do that. But yes, I get what you mean. I wouldn't want to be the passenger in the trapped single especially at the last car when schools let out.
Actually, the R-62(A) cabs are specifically convertible. Look closely and you'll see where all the pieces fit together.
Only another reason not to have Transverse at the ends.
I know this is off topic but please dont delete it. It is for a school project. I created this poll to get peoples opinions on whether or not the WTC should be rebuilt. And I figured who better to ask then New Yorkers. The poll is below. Please take the time to choose an answer.
Thanks,
Ryan
WTC
What should be done with the WTC land once it is cleaned up.
It should be rebuilt the same as it was
It should be just a memorial
It should have smaller buildings
It should be a memorial and a complex
It should be a park and a memorial
Current Results
Ryan - it doesn't work.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
it worked for 12 other people. maybe its your computer.
The poll can not work on my workstation, either.
Chaohwa
it might not accept the html.
Works on mine. I just wish there was the option to rebuilt WTC as it was but with a memorial in the center, because that's what I would've chosen.
Anything less than what was there before at WTC is a coward's way out.
I agree completely. We have to get something tall there again. And no doubt there MUST be a memorial.
you should put one there for building something bigger, thats what i would do
i was going to put that but i was only allowed to use 5 answers.
You should have put on option for "the same but with a memorial", I voted for "the Same", but I really meant "at least the same, but with a memorial" because I feel they will have to have a memorial. But none of the memorial answers allow for tall buildings and a memorial.
yeah i know. like i said before they only let me have 5 answers so i didnt have enough room.
You might want to add another set of options that cover rebuilding the towers, but changing the site for better transit/flow w/ a memorial and better internal construction methods for the towers.
Here's how I think they should rebuild it . . . to send the proper sort of message to Osama Bin Laden.
For the record, I voted for a "memorial/complex" replacement in the poll . . . I think the way to go is a series of lower but still distinctive buildings (in order to give NYC back its skyline) over a transit plaza/memorial park area.
Anyway, here's how they should rebuild it. Photo credit is F**kUsama.com.
*shakes his head*
I lookd at the web site. I havn't laughed so much in 5 months!
which website?........oh the piece of sh*t one i made? yeah i know i kinda abandoned it in the process.lol
Yes, it's highly cathartic. :) Glad you could get it out of your system.
C
Now I know what a guilty pleasure is.
I like the website, but I don't like their new map of the Middle East, they didn't get rid of the world's worst terrorist country: Shitty Arabia.
As long as they have the oil, we're gonna try our best to stay friends with them.
This is why I think that we need to stuff our anti-nuclear lobby into a nuclear waste storage tank.
I also think that the SUV should be BANNED.
Too bad they can't
I kind of like the "middle finger" approach also, at least as a joke. But I don't think if I would like to look at the skyline of New York saying "F you for eternity.
You know, if you can keep the middle finger concept out of the question, the idea is beautiful. I don't know the heights the author proposes but even say the one in the middle is over or at the height the towers were before, it isn't bad because it is one tower, while all the others are just over half of its height. It may work out!
That's true, I'd be satisfied with at least one tall building, so we can get back some of what we lost, like the observation deck, Windows on the World, and maybe the memorial high up to tie in with the tourists for the observation deck.
Now, we know what he has been doing:
Same problem. It does not work.
I know the purpose of this poll is for a school project. And it is quite impressive.
What I'm talking about is from a conversational point of view. And as a matter of the facts. It has already been mentioned that Larry Silverstein who owns the lease to the land WILL NOT (repeat NOT) rebuild the towers as they were. This has no doubt sparked protests, but we most face the fact that the man is free to do with the land as he pleases. It is after all HIS money and HIS lease. He owes nobody anything.
He has said that the cost would be too great to rebuild two 110 floor buildings, much less anything higher. He has said that such large buildings are no longer cost effective. Not that they ever were. Remember, they had a hard time finding tenants after they were built. And after the 1993 tragedy, tenants moved out of the buildings in great numbers. That is the only reason why my sister's company was able to move in. Prices by the end of the 90's were so low per square foot that they were practically giving the space away.
Can you imagine how hard it would be to find tenants now? I know there are some people both on this board and off who think they are immortal and would sign up to not only work but also live on the 110th floor tomorrow. Whatever. Most people would do it to prove a point to terrorists around the world (what ever that point may be). You know, it is pretty hard to prove a point to a bunch of evil and primitive people who hide in caves and do not care whether they live or die. I think you'll have better luck trying to reason with a slug. At least slugs are not evil.
But for many others, they will refuse to work in such a high building. I think it will take a very long time before people even consider doing that again. At least not till the threat of terrorism is gone. And that will take about the same time to accomplish.
The PA should buy $ilver$tein out and send him packing. If he don'tlike it, Shame him - Some things are more important than $ilver$tein's bank account. there is other real estate $ilver%tein can buy. America's dignity is NOT FOR SALE!
OK I have alot of deep feelings about this. On one hand I feel by not rebuilding the WTC in it's entirety would be letting the terrorists win. And my support of rebuilding it doesn't have to do with proving anything to them, it has to do with giving NYC back it's twin towers, back it's grand, beautiful place that one was the WTC.
On the other hand, Larry Silverstein is not the PA and does not have the power or the money to make such a large building profitable. And you can't blame people for being afraid to work in a tall skyscraper (I would be afraid too). On Sept.11 they took our sense of security away, and now we feel vulnerable, constantly looking over our shoulders and checking the news.
But I do believe we can heal. And one of the first things we need to do for ourselves is get those towers rebuilt. If $ilver$tien doesn't support that than the PA can yank his lease. The PA owns the land, Silverstien just maintains it (rents it). Landlords can break leases in extra-ordinary circumstances, and this is what should be done here.
NYC deserves it's World Trade Center back and I as an American will accept no less.
On Sept.11 they took our sense of security away, and now we feel vulnerable, constantly looking over our shoulders and checking the news.
That's why I have the idea for WTC II to be a giant regional military defence platform in the shape of the old towers.
Hoo boy. I hesitate to jump into this one, again. But I gotta.
my support of rebuilding ... has to do with giving NYC back its twin towers, back its grand, beautiful place that one was the WTC.
Beautiful, maybe. Grand, clearly. But it was lousy design. Let me say again, LOUSY DESIGN. The towers were best when viewed from afar. The mall between them was cold, often dark, insanely windy, and no one wanted to spend time there except on the few sunny, windless days. The underground mall was confusing, cramped, hard to navigate. The complex turned its back on three sides of its site (although granted it was designed when the West Side Highway still existed and before we knew how pleasant BPC would be). And it wasn't NYC. It always reminded me of Dallas, or Atlanta, or one of those places where something like that could be dropped from outer space.
And, to stay on topic, the PATH station (relocated deeper and father west from the far more logical Hudson Terminal location) took 10 minutes to get to and from. There were NO integrated transit connections. An incredible wasted opportunity from a transit-hostile PA.
Larry Silverstein is not the PA and does not have the power or the money to make such a large building profitable.
No one does. Real estate developers are very, very rational people. They only build buildings that will make money. Why do you think the WTC was built by the PA? Precisely because no private developer would ever build such a thing. Even its architect planned it to be 70-80 stories until pushed to make it the tallest in the world (see "Twin Towers" by Gillespie).
The PA, thankfully, is no longer in the real-estate development business. They're in the transportation/people-moving business, where they should have stayed all along. They happen to own the site. They will have some say over the final design. But they will lease it out, to Silverstein or some other developer who will build a complex (under certain rough constraints on usage) that will make economic sense and MAKE MONEY FROM DAY ONE which the WTC didn't do for 20+ years.
one of the first things we need to do for ourselves is get those towers rebuilt. If $ilver$tien doesn't support that than the PA can yank his lease. The PA owns the land, Silverstien just maintains it (rents it). Landlords can break leases in extra-ordinary circumstances, and this is what should be done here. NYC deserves its WTC back and I as an American will accept no less.
Won't happen. Shouldn't happen. No amount of "I will accept no less" will make a difference. Sorry.
Besides ... think about this ... something BETTER than the former WTC just might be built. Something equally striking, far better suited to its site, something far more NYC, better for its neighborhood, more usable. It may not happen. But it might.
THAT's what I want. Something even better. Not the same thing.
And I actually think it's an insult to the memory of the 3,000 dead to simply rebuild as was. That's obliterating their memory. The WTC is dead. And we should remember its passing. If we rebuilt, it would let people pretend that nothing ever happened. And I feel that we MUST remember what happened for as long as the last person living on 9/11/01 is still alive, and hopefully thereafter.
Phew.
Rebuild them. That's the only thing to do. It's an overly simply reply but it's from my gut.
It is after all HIS money and HIS lease. He owes nobody anything.
It is the Port Authority's land and in the end they have the final say. If I lease a property I am not free to remove what is there and build what I please. A lease is TEMPORARY. Silverstien is not empowered to do anything perminent to the site. What Silverstien leased has been effectivly destroyed. He is entitled to insured compensation or the PA returning his money. He is not entitled to take LAND THAT IS NOT HIS and build something on it.
The towers must be rebuilt for 1) a downtown tourist magnet ovservation centre, 2) a television/radio antenna. Both of these are sorely needed and would serve the public good. I am also confident that some people would come back to the towers. The remaining space could be used by the US government for a centralized anti-terrorism/homeland defence centre complete w/ missiles and radar on the roof. Think of WTC II as a moden day FlaK tower for the eastern seaboard.
But for many others, they will refuse to work in such a high building. I think it will take a very long time before people even consider doing that again. At least not till the threat of terrorism is gone. And that will take about the same time to accomplish.
People in London during World War II spent years being brutalized by Nazi bombing, bombing that would cease for long periods of time, but then return. Had these people listened to people like you, they would have abandoned the city and moved to the countryside. They did not, not only did most Londoners stay in the city after the war, they stayed in the city during the war.
World War II had a defined enemy and a defined ending and that was clear from the get-go.
There will always be war, there will always be an enemy and everyone will always be in danger, whether on the 100th floor of a building, or in the basement of a two-story building. If you think that one day the threat from terrorism will be gone, then you are probably right, but if you think that one day the threat from anything will be gone, you are DEAD wrong.
If you believe that we must do everything in our power to be perfectly invulnerable to our enemies, then you are nothing more than a genocidal maniac.
It worked for me.
I figured out why it works only for some people (this poll). When I used IE, it worked, when I used Netscape, it didn't.
Is there still a sense of emptyness among New Yorkers now approaching 6 months since WTC is not there anymore?
That feeling will take a long time to heal. I still get sick everytime I see the skyline, or think about the events of that day. Life goes on, and the city is pretty much back to normal (except there), but I'm sure it is still very much in the back of people's minds.
That feeling will take a long time to heal. I still get sick everytime I see the skyline, or think about the events of that day. Life goes on, and the city is pretty much back to normal (except there), but I'm sure it is still very much in the back of people's
minds.
We'll probably see some delayed reactions as time goes on. In other words, some people who up to this point have coped fine with the events, and seem to have gone back to normal, will fairly suddenly find themselves not coping weeks or even months from now. There may, for instance, be a big surge in broken relationships and divorces this spring and summmer, a surge that can't be explained any other way. I know this sounds sort of illogical, but similar effects have been seen after other major disasters. The fact that the physical recovery at the WTC site is going to take an eternity won't help matters.
There may, for instance, be a big surge in broken relationships and divorces this spring and summmer, a surge that can't be explained any other way.
A psychiatrist friend of mine was extremely frightening about the long-term effects. America has never experienced a direct physical attack of this magnitude, in which 25 million people were directly or indirectly affected. The long-term effects of this are huge.
Already, a friend of mine in the NYPD provided these two data points: DUIs among active-duty NYPD officers have almost doubled, and reported domestic violence in FDNY families has almost TRIPLED.
Now is actually the hard part. Many/most people (myself included) don't think about 9/11 so much any more, and I find myself getting slightly impatient at certain types of reminders. So for some, when the rest of NYC is slowly getting "back to normal," this is the time where they will isolate and suffer alone.
Anyone seen those posters with coping strategies in the subway, with the tagline "NY Needs You Strong"? WILD ....
About a week and a half ago I went to Ground Zero to look at it. I was at Church and Vessey. Across the street from Zero. The rubble is just about gone.The streets are pretty much cleaned up. Maybe some minor debree in the cemetery.
The site looks like a large construction site that just started. But I couldn't get out of my mind was the void that is there now. You're right to say emptyness. It's the same thing. I couldn't understand that the big building that was once there...is not there anymore. As I was walking toward Fulton St Station I would stop and look back and go gaa-gaa over the building is gone.
What gets me is the thought of those poor people inside those
buildings and planes, the terror, fear, and coming to the
realization that you are not going to make it!
How do you call someone you love, and say goodbye? what goes thru your mind, to make the decision to jump from the building?
And just for being at work, trying to make a living, it makes me
nuts.
I really cannot dwell on it too long, my mind won't go there
Well for me there still very much is. Now that every remnant of the WTC is gone (the partially collapsed buildings including former Borders) it feels really empty downtown.
What saddens me even more is that whenever the WTC is rebuilt it will not be as grand as it was before. By not rebuilding the full WTC complex including the 110 story towers, is a shame to the city, and to Americans as well. We cannot let them take take away what was an integral part of NYC and America.
You know, it still really pisses me off that they felt they had to do that. I can't stand the fact that the toweres, and all the great things that were artound them are completely gone. That at one time was one of the nicest and most desirable spots in the city, now it's just a big wasteland. What a waste of lives....A waste in materials.....And a waste of money. Just think of all the money that has been pumped into and will need to be pumped into that spot. A total waste, just think if that money could have been spent on infastructure, or the betterment of mankind, instead of just totally wasted because a group of animals felt the need to do this.
>>And a waste of money. Just think of all the money that has been pumped into and will need to be pumped into that spot<<
Money being pummped into this site should come from the ones responsible for this.....the Saudis and Iraqis.
Bill "Newkirk"
Right on!
To be honest with you whenever I thought of the NYC Skyline I thought of midtown with the Empire State Bldg as the center of attraction with the Chrysler Bldg second. So my emptiness isn't really the skyline but rather what the act has done to the city. Tourism is way down and I don't see it rising too much soon. I think people are afraid to go NY. I also of course have a big empty feeling when I think of all the victims and how many died in a delayed manner (sort of like the Titanic) knowing they are probably going to die. I especially miss the 3 victims that I personally knew. (There are probably more that I knew)
A few days before 9/11 I took my 5 yr old son Arthur to a Staten Is Yankees game. We took the IRT to South Ferry from the LIRR, then the ferry to the stadium. Our seats were directly behind home plate and I remember pointing out the twin towers to Arthur which was straight ahead behind the center field wall. Although I've been to Ground Zero many times as a cop with no ill effects I really don't think I could bring Arthur to another game again. I'm not even sure the reason why.
Gentlemen,
I have not written for a long time. However, I need to be heard in this debate. I was working at 101 Barclay St. the day of the attacks. Since then, we were moved to the Comdisco building in LIC, now, we are located at the Paramount Building.
Anyway, NYC was completely robbed on 9/11. We were robbed of our people, our security, our identity, our skyline, and even our sanity on that day.
I am speaking as a native NY'er, and witness to the events. With all respect to those who perished, and their families, we must absolutely rebuild the towers. To do less would mean that these people died in vain. If you want to build a memorial to go along with it, fine. If you want to change the landscape a bit, maybe build the other buildings in the complex differently, then that's fine too. But the towers must go back.
There were over 3 thousand people killed on that day. But, there are millions of New Yorkers still alive and surviving. We all share an emptiness in our heart to match the emptiness in our skyline. In order to heal, this emptiness must be filled.
To those who travel to Manhattan, they can see that people's spirits are battered. It's like everyone is in another world. Tourists won't come here, not because they're scared, but because the things they came to see are no longer there. If you don't build it, they won't come !
On December 12, some of us went back to 101 Barclay St. to retreive some of our belongings. It was like the Twilight Zone. Our desks were exactly how we left them. Our calendars still had the Sept. 11 page open. The view from the window was shockingly different then when we last left.
All of these images will remain with me forever. There is not a day that goes by that I don't re-live these events in my mind. I still have dreams of that day from time to time. However, I am not scared. I am angry and bitter not only at the terrorists, but at the clowns who claim to speak for the majority of New Yorkers when they talk about what to do with the site. The only one who can speak for New Yorkers, are New Yorkers themselves. This issue should be voted on by the people in this City. Doing anything less, and coming to the wrong decision, would exacerbate the current bitterness and sadness that all New Yorkers feel.
the clowns who claim to speak for the majority of New Yorkers when they talk about what to do with the site. The only one who can speak for New Yorkers, are New Yorkers themselves. This issue should be voted on by the people in this City. Doing anything less, and coming to the wrong decision, would exacerbate the current bitterness and sadness that all New Yorkers feel.
Recent polls, apparently done by reputable polling firms and sponsored by news media, show that NYers *even more than Americans at large* support a mix of housing, offices and memorial on the WTC site.
I agree that a process needs to be put in place to let all involved parties (including non-NY-resident victims and survivors) air their opinions on what was built.
That said, the property owner (Port Authority) and the zoning laws and the Lower Manhattan Redevelopment Council are the decision makers. All lobbying, opinions and complaints should be directed to the PA and LMRC. If you feel that strongly that the towers must be recreated (and I do not believe they will, or should, be) then you should tell them, most vociferously. Good luck.
Well said!
I was last at the PATH WTC station on September 8th. Till this day, I still can't believe that the station, mall and escalators are gone. I've been there so many times in the past and take for granted it would always be there never realizing what did happen on 9/11.
As for the towers, the skyline is empty, even though the towers have been around for some 30 years, I too have taken them for granted they too would be there after I died. It's still unbelieveable that that these buildings were completely flattened in one day by terrorists.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was at WTC on Sunday the 9th. I was going to Newark Airport to pick up y daughter coming in from San Diego. I had a passing thought as I was going down to the PATH: "What a mess it would be if this collapsed.". Scary when a wild thought becomes true.
Wasn't the sunnyside yard going to become a subway yard??? If not, it should! I think I saw something on the Daily News about the Sunnyside Yard becoming an actual subway yard. That'll be sweeeeeeeeeetttttttt!
Why, why, why and why?
It would only be "sweeeeeet" if MTA used it to store the 7's redbird fleet for the next 25 years......LOL
Wishful thinking...
What you probably saw was that East Side Access for the LIRR envisions a stop in the Sunnyside yard that would have a direct transfer to the Queens(boro) Plaza subway stations.
I think sunnyside is very much used for a passenger train yard. You may be mixed up with Yard A (near there) being changed from a freight to LIRR yard for the East side project. But a subway yard I don't think is planned.
>>Wasn't the sunnyside yard going to become a subway yard???<<
Supposedly, I guess in conjunction with the 2nd Ave subway (if built). There are bellmouths in the 63rd St subway for that reason. Am I right ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Nopers. LIRR MU storage will be it's use. I've never seen or read anything offical saying it'd be subway... ...if someone has, point us to it...
On the northbound F line leaving 21 St and before it turns to come under the E line, there is a bellmouth there. It seems to be just for the northbound track. I haven't seen one for the other side. I think it's supposed to be the SuperExpress that has been spoken about for years. It's supposed to connect the 63 St tunnel with the Archer Ave Tunnel
Correct me if I'm wrong!
You are correct.
I really suspect that is there for the simple reason of making it easier to connect the LIRR tunnel under the current F tracks to sunnyside. If they didn't extend that tunnel a bit (thus the bellmouth) they'd have had to have GOs or to reroute the F again when the LIRR connection is put in place to the tunnel under it. If it were meant for 'super express', there'd be some kind of provision on the southbound track for that.
LIRR probably IS the super express in MTA's eyes.
I really suspect that is there for the simple reason of making it easier to connect the LIRR tunnel under the current F tracks to sunnyside. If they didn't extend that tunnel a bit (thus the bellmouth) they'd have had to have GOs or to reroute the F again when the LIRR connection is put in place to the tunnel under it. If it were meant for 'super express', there'd be some kind of provision on the southbound track for that. LIRR probably IS the super express in MTA's eyes.
The bellmouth visible from the F tracks (on the upper level of the two-level 63rd Street Tunnel and approaches) is solely for future subway use, from the old Queens Super-Express plan.
The lower level of the tunnel now deadends directly below that bellmouth (since the LIRR tracks wouldn't connect to Queens Blvd) and will be continued on along that route and out underneath Sunnyside as construction of the East Side Connector gets underway.
I believe that the 63rd Street line to 21st/Queensbridge was built to that point, and that the just-completed 63rd Street Connector took off from that point.
Originally, the plan was for up to 70 tracks on the north side of Sunnyside for subway car storage. There was also recently, talk of a diesel servicing facility and even a loop track for the #7 line. I've heard about (but never saw) a new access from the Q.B. local tracks around 46th St. into Sunnyside. The new track arangement in Corona Yd. will make the loop track in sunnyside moot. As to the rest, it's all rumors until we see it on paper.
My apologies if this was already posted, but I scrolled down and it didn't look like anyone else had:
In a previously undisclosed incident that smacks of a WMATA coverup in an effort to avoid bad PR around the new CAF 5000-series cars, a woman was apparently dragged several hundred feet by a CAF train when her arm caught in the door. She broke free after a frantic struggle to free her arm just feet before the train went into the tunnel. The incident was first reported in the Washington Times yesterday; a followup article in the Post blames the operator (who was summarily fired) for not checking the platform before moving the train, the door electronics (which had been damaged and improperly repaired at a CAF facility in Spain), and the passenger involved in the incident for inserting a limb in the doors to attempt them from closing. "These are not elevator doors; they don't spring back," a stuffy Metro official said stiffly.
The complete Post story | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42014-2002Feb20.html
—Chris
For those (myself included) who have missed these articles I did a search on their website (www.timeoutny.com) and found some interesting articles written:
http://www.timeoutny.com/features/144/144.feat.subways.html
http://www.timeoutny.com/aroundtown/304/304.subways.html
http://www.timeoutny.com/features/13/13.feat.subway.lo.html
http://www.timeoutny.com/features/268/268.ft.essny.page2.html
http://www.timeoutny.com/essay/189/189.essay.gillian.html
http://www.timeoutny.com/features/304/304.ft.subways.html (note: this is a different article from the 2nd one above).
Thanks for the list. I converted your urls to links for us lazy sods to click on.
>>> I converted your urls to links for us lazy sods to click on. <<<
You should have added descriptive titles for the really lazy sods who do not want to follow a link without being sure they will be interested in what is at the other end. :-)
Tom
You should have added descriptive titles
And maybe dates. Some of those are OLD!
I didn't think that was really necessary since the dates of the articles were at the top of the article.
Sheeshy - talk about lazy!!!
I didn't think that was really necessary since the dates of the articles were at the top of the article. Sheeshy - talk about lazy!!!
Not at all. (Well, OK, a little)
Good design for links pages and tables of contents encourages you to give relevant info (in this case, date is relevant) to let the user decide WHETHER he wants to click/read or pass along to the next link.
Requiring me to click into the article to find out whether I want to read it (title, how old it is) wastes time.
But thanks for providing the list.
This very lazy guy thanks you a lot !
I caught one boo-boo right away: as we Pelham fans know, the original Pelham 1-2-3 was NOT filmed at 91st St.
Nice work, thanks a bunch!
I visited New York last weekend. After leaving the viewing platform at the WTC, I took the A back to Penn Station. From the A train platform, I could see the other platform for the C.
When locals arrived and left, I tried to find the trippers on the cars but couldn't. Possibly, they were out of view from my vantage point or they were in plain sight and I recognize them. Where are they?
Michael
On "B" Division (BMT/IND) cars they are on the left hand side of the front of the truck.
OK. The C is an IND train. Are the trippers visible or are they on the inside of the truck, not visible to anybody looking for them?
Michael
They are quite visible as they have to stick out a few inches before the the truck. But of course if you don't know what to look for you could miss it.
In that case, I did see them. They protrude laterally from the truck.
Thanks for the info.
Michael
and they are painted yellow.
Come to think of it. Left and right are relative to the point of direction. I saw a local go into the Chambers Street station. From my vantage point, the trippers were on the RIGHT when the train went into the stub end track. When the train reverses direction to back uptown, the trippers would be on the left. This means that trains have to be facing the correct direction to get the trippers on the correct side.
I didn't realize it made a difference which way a train faces. Now I realize it makes a big difference.
Am I missing something?
Michael
Michael,
Let me put it this way:
When you are looking out from inside the end car of the train, regardless of the direction it is traveling in the tripper will always be on the left side of the truck. If you are looking at it from the outside it will appear to be on the right side of the truck.
IRT cars (or numbered lines)- trippers on the motorman cab side
BMT/IND cars (or lettered lines) - trippers on other side
Thankyouverrrrymuch Phil...and work units have em all around. CI Peter
They are on the PORT side of the train. It does not matter which way the train goes, it can have only one PORT SIDE. (the other side is starboard.
Elias
Port and starboard change at the end of the line. What is starboard going southbound is port going northbound EXCEPT when a train goes through a loop, e.g. South Ferry. Port remain port side.
Port and starboard are in relation to the direction of traffic. The direction of traffic changes when a train reverses direction at the end of stub track.
Michael
See Phil Hom's response. He put in very simple terms.
"Port and starboard change at the end of the line"
No, they do not. When standing on the bow of a ship (well ok, at the rail fan window) the port side is always on your left, the starboard always on your right. Naturallly this *is* in relation to the direction of travel. So it does not matter if you are standing at the window or on the platform, the port side tells you that it is on the train's left rather than your own left if you were looking at it from the platform.
BTW: Does anyone know where the Quarterdeck is?
Elias
A subway train is palindromic, unlike a ship, which has a bow. A subway train doesn't spend half its time running backwards. Port and starboard DO reverse at the end of the line.
Does anyone know where the Quarterdeck is?
Some of us are dealing from a quarter deck or less. :)
Here's one you might get a kick out of ... on a Northbound run one afternoon, I had an old guy with a thick New England accent walk up to the cab window and ask me who was in charge of the railroad and complained that all of our "running lights" were WRONG on the trains. (markers)
He said that the red light should be on the left and the green light on the right and we had it all ass-backways because we had two green lights on the front and red lights on the back of all the trains and how at least there was ONE train he had seen with green on the right, red on the left and wanted to commend the ONE motorman who "got it right." :)
Fisherman, eh?
I'd have to guess ... my short span with the TA had a number of amuisng little stories, most of which I've shared here over more than a year's time. The "port and starboard" thing kicked the memory back. The guy was QUITE upset though. Gave him the address to write to though. Always loved referring customers to the proper people who could answer their questions for them. :)
Sticking with the nautical theme,
Yes, PORT and STARBOARD reverse as the train does, but that's why each end has a stop at opposite corners.
The reversing key points to the direction of the "Bow." B division trippers are to Port (Leeward?) IN THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL.
On older Sail Driven El gate cars, the Galley was always at the bow as well.
C division cars have 15 trippers each, some in the middle of the truck in case of derailments.
BERA has twelve Trippers per year!
;-)
"Port remain port side"
Unless you have had too much Sherry....
HMmmmm..... I wonder how the ferry boats decide which side is port....
Actually the same way, because they change the lights when they change directions.
Elias
I just released a "Skeletal" L line for BVE. It's not as detailed as my other routes, but for those of you who want a "fixer-upper," or those who want to drive an L train, it's for you.
It's mostly in the pre-construction layout, and I made R32's for the train (8 car version), but R143's can be used on it as well.
Go to http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/ to get it.
I do not see the L... could you post a direct link?
Try http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/rd/index.html. It's the link that says "0 Screenshots available."
Seems to me your whole site is down.
yep, server's down. must run microsoft windows. ha!
I cannot get to your website. It always says The page cannot be displayed and/or Cannot find server. Can you supply me with the download link or e-mail me at tydev@si.rr.com?
I wonder if you could stick on R68A on there in BVE? (hehe)
Finally got the hang of the R68A, it seems pretty realistic to most cars out there on the B division (the 143's on BVE are too fast for actualy subway cars).
Sure you can! Just edit the "train=" line in the RW or CSV file and away you go with the train you WANT ...
Heh, I might as well work on yours. The most difficult part is finished. I don't feel like working on the Q Express as it'll take rides and rides to gather everything I need.
Either lots of rides or take a video camera (either your own or a friend's) and film the line. The latter is what I did for the L.
Ok... so I go at lunch time to times sq to catch the 7 silver train... my luck its in the yard until late afternoon... they also have no idea when it would come :(
So here is my question: They cant tell me when the silver 7 is coming but you guys posted a schedule for the r143 L train... how come we know that schedule? cuz its new?
Thanks,
Allen
so the r62a is not running on the 7 today? i did not see it
I caught it this morning, 8:50am out of Main St. I heard some "ooohs" and giggles from other people at Main St from the sight of it. It ran express. The side rollsigns in the last few cars where I was were all set to circle-7.
It's funny how the average riding public are probably tricked into thinking they are riding "new" trains. Hey the TA even removed alot of the scratched windows!!
>>I heard some "ooohs" and giggles from other people at Main St from the sight of it<<
Giggles ? What's so funny about the R-62As ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think they were giggling because they were so happy that they were riding cars that would have no holes in them!
Probably!
Just my luck, I caught it again on my way to work this morning, 9:23am express out of Main St. It feels odd to be sitting in the 3rd car from Flushing end of an 11-car consist that is A/C capable.
Dumb question, why is it necessary to change the rollsigns between cars of the 5-car consist (1701-1705) to the circle 7 rollsign?
If glass were replaced before it went into service, then #1704 is already badly scratched up. Those rats have done a number on the little glass pane across from the #1704 cab that's next to #1703 car.
It's really unfortunate really. I caught a Main Street-bound 7 from Fisk and when I boarded the 3rd car from the end, I saw the side doors nearest me, covered in scratchiti! I wish the people who did those things who consider what they were doing!
The person that posted the R143 schedule is a conductor on the L! I think that he would know!
man they are ugly on the #7 .............
In time they're will be more Silver 7 trains and they will be running on a regular basis.
#3 West End Jeff
Ok.. one more day in my home city and then its back to Atlanta... anyone have any ideas for things to do? doesnt have to be train related...
Also, where is a good deli? Where is carnegies?
Thanks :)
Allen
Katz s on Houston St Take F or V Train to 2nd Ave, walk East. (That is where Harry met Sally had the fake Orgasism scene) Carnagie expensive, 2nd Ave Rip Off,
I second the motion. And like what the old lady said at the end of the scene:
"I'll have whatever she's having!"
The old lady, Rob Rheiners mother.
"I'll have what shes having."
avid
Hello, hello. I need some help with information on the NY subway system, and as quite a few people on this board are real experts I figured I would start asking questions. I'm working on compiling a list of all preserved electric cars in North America; at the moment, my list contains about 1,900 pieces of equipment. Some of the information I try and obtain involves mechanical and electrical equipment, such as trucks, motors, control, brake schedules, and compressors. This information is generally hard to come by; I could really use someone who knows their stuff and is willing to endure a few multi-question e-mails. Also, if anyone would like a copy of my list in Microsoft Works database format (it's slightly out of date - I switched over to Lotus Approach a little while back), e-mail me and let me know.
Anyway, here's some of the questions I have. I would REALLY appreciate anyone's input on this (pretty dreary) subject:
Concerning the R1 series, (if not all cars in the series had the same equipment, I'm looking specifically for cars 100, 103, 175, 381):
How long were these cars (to the inch)?
How wide?
How high?
What kind of trucks did they have?
What kind of motors did they have?
How many motors did each car have, and in what arrangement (both in one truck [B-2], one in each truck [1A-A1 or A1-1A])?
What kind of control system did they have?
What kind of air compressor did they have?
Concerning the R4 series (if not all cars in the series had the same equipment, I'm looking specifically for cars 484, 491, 800, 825), I have the following information that I'm not sure is correct:
Trucks = ACF 506 AB
Motors = WH 714D1/2 (2)
Control = ABF
Compressor = D3-F
Also, what was the seating capacity of the R4's?
What was each car's total horsepower?
Concerning the R6-1 and R6-3 series (if not all cars in the series had the same equipment, I'm looking specifically for cars 923, 925, 1000, 1144, and 1300):
What was the length, width, and height of the R6's?
What kind of trucks did they have?
What kind of motors? How many, and in what arrangement?
What kind of control system did they have?
What kind of air compressor?
What was the seating capacity of the R6's?
Concerning the R9 series (if not all cars in the series had the same equipment, I'm looking specifically for cars 1689, 1801, 1802):
What was the length, width, and height of the R9's?
What kind of trucks did they have?
What kind of motors? How many, and in what arrangement?
What kind of control system did they have?
What kind of air compressor?
I'm guessing that no one will be loony enough to try and answer more than one or two of these questions, but ANY information is GREATLY appreciated. THANKS!!!
Frank Hicks
WOW!!
I am not going to try to answer then all at once (I'll leave that for others) but R-1 car 100 is located in the Transit Museum in Brooklyn
(currently closed for renovations until 2003)
The data sheets for those cars as reproduced in "Evolution of New York City Subways: An Illustrated History of New York City's Transit Cars 1867-1997" has information about trucks, motors, dimensions, etc. Should answer all of your above questions.
I'd like to get that data put online but I don't really have the time to transcribe it all. (Any volunteers?)
-Dave
What really will be interesting is if he can find a copy since it has been out of print for a while.
Word is that it may be republished with updates but no one knows when.
That book sounds like just the thing I need. Unfortunately, I'm way out here in Chicago, and books on the NY subway are pretty hard to come by. My only resources have been this website and a paperback called "They Moved The Millions," a cursory study of NY subway rolling stock that has an interesting tendency to contradict both itself and other sources (most of which I consider more reliable). The book's shortcomings are made up for by the fact that it cost me $2.
Anyway thanks for indulging my query... if anyone can suggest where I would be able to get a copy of "Evolution of New York City Subways," let me know...
Frank Hicks
It's out of print but will soon (someday) be reissued by Johns Hopkins University Press. I'd inquire there as to when...
"They Moved The Millions," a cursory study of NY subway rolling stock that has an interesting tendency to contradict both itself and other sources (most of which I consider more reliable)
Don't always consider other sources reliable. Some of the most well known rail historians have made errors in the text and picture captions of the books they have published. Many of these could have been caught by a good proofreader, something that seems to be lacking in rail publications. We, the readers, assume that because we read something in a published book, it has to be true. That is not always the case. It would be wonderful if we had the ability to recognize what was fact and what was a mistake as we read a book.
As an intersting aside, the author of the book to which you refer has been an occasional poster to this board and an acquaintance of mine for more than 20 years. While his book does suffer from poor photo reproduction, and low quality paper stock, I can not think of any specific blounders in the text as I write this.
I don't mean to bash the author of this book; I'm probably being too hard on it, as I suppose the low printing quality makes me a little more biased than I ought to be. The roster data in "They Moved the Millions" differed from other sources in a few regards; one thing I noticed was that it listed different builders for several IRT cars than were listed in rosters put out by Shore Line and other museums. Also, I think the book contradicted itself at least once (once? I know - only ONCE is pretty darn good) in listing the builder of the BMT "Green Hornet" as two different companies.*
Frank Hicks
*It was Pullman-Standard... right?
Frank: You sure did spot some obvious errors in that book. It lists BMT #7003 aka The Green Hornet as being built by Pullman-Standard. Actually it was built by the Pullman Company before the merger. Another error lists BMT #8000 as being built by Clark Equiptment and being called The Green Hornet. The builder is right but the car was the prototype Bluebird which was followed by the five production units # 8001-8005. The author was a subway motorman and while it makes for a nice read he relies a little too much on his memory which as we all know when you get a little older starts to play tricks on you. You might want to check out the books of Xplorer Press. This includes New York City Subway Cars an excellent review of all R-Types from R-1 thru R-110, Subway Cars of the BMT which covers all pre-war BMT Steel Cars and Interborough Fleet which covers the pre-war IRT cars. I believe that there is a link to there website on this page.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
You bash away, it is your right!
I was just trying to make a point that some of highest regarded authors in the hobby have made some errors in their books.
I always thought that it was built by Pullman Standard.
R-1
Length- 60'6"
Width- 9' 9 5/8" (over eaves)
Height- 12' 1 15/16" (from top of rail to top of roof rivets).
From "original drawing" Board of Transportation/Engineering Dept.
Concerning the R1 series, (if not all cars in the series had the same equipment, I'm looking specifically for cars 100, 103, 175, 381):
How long were these cars (to the inch)? 60' 2 1/2" over the anticlimbers
How wide? 10' 0"
How high? 12' 1 15/16"
What kind of trucks did they have? either American Car & foundry Arch bar (built-up) or Cast Steel truck by Commonwealth truck. There were 305 of each manufacturer
What kind of motors did they have? Westinghouse 570D5 190 HP
How many motors did each car have, and in what arrangement (both in one truck [B-2], one in each truck [1A-A1 or A1-1A])? One truck has 2 motors and one was a trailer. The trailer truck was on the #1 end.
What kind of control system did they have? Westinghouse ABF, UP143B
What kind of air compressor did they have? WABCO D3F
Concerning the R4 series (if not all cars in the series had the same equipment, I'm looking specifically for cars 484, 491, 800, 825), I have the following information that I'm not sure is correct:
Trucks = ACF 506 AB Correct
Motors = WH 714D1/2 (2)GE714A1 and GE714A2
Control = ABF Correct WH UP143E
Compressor = D3-F correct
Also, what was the seating capacity of the R4's? 56
What was each car's total horsepower? 380 HP
Concerning the R6-1 and R6-3 series (if not all cars in the series had the same equipment, I'm looking specifically for cars 923, 925, 1000, 1144, and 1300):
What was the length, width, and height of the R6's? Dimensions were exactly the same as the R-1s
What kind of trucks did they have? ACF built-up archbar
What kind of motors? How many, and in what arrangement? 2 GE 714C1 and GE714C2 on the #2 truck. #1 truck was a trailer truck.
What kind of control system did they have? WH ABF UP143
What kind of air compressor? WABCO D3F
What was the seating capacity of the R6's? 56
Concerning the R9 series (if not all cars in the series had the same equipment, I'm looking specifically for cars 1689, 1801, 1802):
What was the length, width, and height of the R9's? Same as the others
What kind of trucks did they have? ACF Built-up Arch bar
What kind of motors? How many, and in what arrangement? WH 570D6 or GE 714D3 in the same arrangement as the others
What kind of control system did they have? GE PC15C1
What kind of air compressor? WABCO D3F
I hope this helps.
"I hope this helps."
It helps a LOT! Thank you!!
Frank Hicks
Frank, Train Dude has already given you most of the info, which
I'm sure he got either from the "Evolution of NYC Subways" book
or one of the older TA roster books. The former, btw, is a pretty
book but it is full of errors on the technical details. (hopefully
the second edition will correct these). The electrical
details sound correct but I'll check against some actual R1-9
electrical prints if I can. I'll be happy to help you with
your roster, especially the cars preserved at Branford. One
thing you didn't ask for which is useful to have in a roster is
air brake system. All of the R1-9 cars were AMUE with ME23 valves.
All of the info was from "Car Equipment & Technical Support Revenue & Non-Revenue Car drawing manual" January 1998 (latest) edition.
"I'll be happy to help you with
your roster"
Boy, you're going to regret saying that! :-)
Actually, I appreciate the help, and I'm sure I'll be able to come up with some good questions on cars at SLTM. The main reason I hadn't asked about brake schedules for the NY subway cars was because the book I was referencing listed them as all having AMUE. It didn't list much else in the way of technical data, but it did list brake equipment.
Frank Hicks
The past few Sundays, I've noticed one R-32 consist running on the F.
Will there necessarily be (at least) one R-32 consist on the F on any given Sunday? How early in the morning? What are my chances of catching it, say, at 8:30 am at 14th Street?
(In case anyone's wondering, I'd like to catch the F express run from Smith-9th to 18th Avenue with a real view, and I already have plans for mid-morning. The afternoon I've set aside for the 1 shuttle bus in its various forms. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you haven't been keeping up with the TA's GO notices.)
I was on the F today and saw 2 sets out on the culver. I don't think it's so rare. I think nothing is rare. There are multiple R68s and R68As trains mized between the Q, W, and N. I don't think they care much about what line gets what as long as they have equipment rolling. But they will waste alot of time switching the signs.
Oh, on weekdays they're not rare. Last I checked, five R-32 consists (out of 45) were assigned to the F during rush hour.
But not as many trains are needed on weekends, and the R-46's, being more popular with crews, may go out first. Sundays, only 18 trains -- less early in the morning (I need to be at Stillwell by 9:30 to reach my destination on time). Will one of them be the one I'm looking for? I'd rather not wake up early and spend three hours waiting only to settle for an R-46.
I have had luck catching the R-32 consists on weekdays. My first weekday on the IND after the 12/16 changes, I took a V from 14 to 47-50. The F behind it was an R-32 consist. Then I got to Roosevelt and crossed over, and another F R-32 consist pulled in for the return trip. We past a third one at 21-QB. (I got off at Lex, so I don't know what happened after that.)
As for the N, I seem to find more R-68A's than R-68's, even though the former are only assigned to the W (except for one train on the Q).
It seems almost every N train these days is an R40 slant ...
They are very common.
But on Tuesday, when I was waiting for the R-62A 7 at QbP, almost everything that went by on the N/W tracks was an R-68(A). I saw one R-40 trainset and I don't think there were any R-32's. They must travel in packs or something.
When I was riding the Astoria Line in August, the R32s and R40s were all bunched up.
R32 N trains are not as common since the V train began. I think CI lost some of it's R32's at that time.
I've seen at least 3 trainsets of 32s on the weekends both Sat. and Sun. (I love them....best PA, best doors, the best equipment the F line could ever get!! Better than the crapball 46s, with awfully slow doors, and PA that's either ear-drum bursting, or "hearing aid required" low)
There are plenty of R32's assigned to the F, and they run every day. It's not unusual anymore.
Personally, I wish they'd keep the F all R46 and the E all R32.
For years, I've been sick and tired of seeing nothing bt 46's on the F. Not that they're bad cars, but the Brooklyn part of the line feels a bit boring. I'm glad the F finally has some variety on it.
Now if only they'd get some 42's to spice it up a bit more...
What's this? Is this the beginning of an R-42 fan club? I thought I was the only one here who liked them. The Coney Island rebuilds are especially attractive, although they're apparently not so great under the hood.
Before GOH, did the R-42 have the same (atrocious) rollsign box as the R-40?
>>>Before GOH, did the R-42 have the same (atrocious) rollsign box as the R-40?<<<
Yes, it did.
Peace,
ANDEE
Before GOH, did the R-42 have the same (atrocious) rollsign box as the R-40?
Yes, but at least the slants had colored signs until their GOH. All the R42's had those bland black & white rollsigns throughout most of the 1980's.
Originally, the 42's had a LARGE colored rollsign with the "spaghetti colors" for each of the lines just like the slants did originally. You could tell from two stations away that the train coming was a "D" ... seems as though over the years, the objective is to have the geese playing "what train is this?" even when it's rolling into the station.
I never saw those big original signs, they were all replaced in the late 1970's. I think those signs were so large, no one car could carry signs for every route.
would the F make a good railfan video ??
if so would any of you out there reccommend me to do this ?
thanks if you can help....
( smile )
I think so. To its credit, it has the elevated Culver line, the strange track arrangements on the Brooklyn IND section, the highest station in the system (Smith-9th), and the new 63rd Street connector. Its only downside is that the entire line outside of Brooklyn is underground. The line is dominated by R-46's but you won't have to wait terribly long for an R-32 on a weekday.
Another recommendation I have is the 1, which temporarily has railfan windows on some of its trains -- the ones made up of R-62A singles. As the 7 train claims more and more of those singles, fewer and fewer 1 trains will have railfan windows, so grab it while you can. The 1 has probably the most varied construction of all lines, with four-track subway, three-track subway, three-track bored tunnel, three-track arched viaduct, two-track subway, two-track bored tunnel, and standard three-track el -- and you'll find that all from 96th Street on north!
oh no !
so i could get some good #1 irt videos by this summer ??
like in early july ?
i hope so !
man thats good news on the # 1 by this summer if the railfan window holds up like you said.
long ago i saw it on a r21-22 !! wow !!!
Fs great, its worth the occasional 1 hour wait for the F
Yesterday's Article
New Metro car malfunction
made woman fear for life
By Jim Keary
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
One of Metro's newest subway cars last month trapped a Cheverly woman in its doors, then dragged her along the subway station platform before she broke free and lost consciousness.
Li J. Yu, 58, was taken to Howard University Hospital, where she was treated for injuries to her head, arms and legs in the Jan. 9 incident, one of nearly three dozen last month involving failures of the new subway cars' doors and propulsion systems.
"She said, 'I thought I was going to die,'" said Jennifer Wu, who lives with Mrs. Yu in the 2500 block of Crest Avenue in Cheverly. "She was so scared. She didn't know what was happening to her. It all happened so fast."
Metro reports obtained by The Washington Times showed that a "train moved with customer caught in train doors" but did not explain why the train dragged Mrs. Yu the length of the platform at the Gallery Place Metrorail Station. The trains are designed to alert operators when a door is ajar and to halt if someone is caught in a door.
A Metro investigation into the incident determined that a door had malfunctioned. Metro spokesman Ray Feldmann said, without elaborating, that the train's operator was disciplined. He said the "minor malfunction" uncovered in the investigation was repaired and that the train was returned to service about two weeks later.
Metro workers and sources familiar with the accident said the door's wiring had been modified from its original specifications and did not match the approved diagram.
"I know there was a minor malfunction that prevented the door from giving an 'all doors closed' sign," Mr. Feldmann said. "I don't know about modifications."
Mr. Feldmann said that although the transit agency has had "recurring problems" with its new 5000 Series rail cars, crowding on the Green Line has pressured Metro to keep the cars running. He said he could not comment on 25 of the 34 reported malfunctions of new cars last month.
"We would not put a car out there unless we felt it was safe. We said that time and time again," Mr. Feldmann said. "That does not mean they will not malfunction."
Miss Wu said Mrs. Yu, who immigrated from China 12 years ago and spoke little English, was on her way home from work at the laundry at the Red Roof Inn in Chinatown when she boarded the Green Line train at Gallery Place about 6:15 p.m. on Jan. 9. The train was full, and a man in front of Mrs. Yu would not move to let her into the car.
Mrs. Yu decided to get off the train and catch the next one, but as she was leaving, the doors trapped her and the train started to move.
"Half of her body was still inside the door. She pulled so hard," Miss Wu said. "She does not remember how she got free. She was laying on the floor, and all these people were around screaming and yelling."
Metro workers said Mrs. Yu would have been crushed between the train and the platform wall or would have fallen under the train if she had been dragged into the Gallery Place tunnel.
A Metro station manager called for an ambulance, and Mrs. Yu was taken to Howard University Hospital. She was unable to work for about two weeks.
Miss Wu said she and Mrs. Yu contacted Metro about paying Mrs. Yu's $1,300 emergency room bill, which they received Jan. 20. "They said don't call them. They said they would contact us," said Miss Wu. "We're still waiting."
Mr. Feldmann said a separate investigation usually is begun when a medical claim is made.
Metro records showed that Mrs. Yu was attempting to board a train composed of six of the 5000 Series subway cars. The cars, manufactured by CAF of Madrid, have been so plagued with malfunctions that Metro has told the company to fix the problems before sending any new cars.
Metro has been using the cars on the Green Line to reduce crowding. The ridership on the Green Line, which expanded a year ago, was about twice what Metro expected.
Metro has ordered 192 cars from CAF at a cost of $220 million. The transit agency aimed to have 18 cars in service when the Green Line expanded but had to accept only four of the cars on a tentative basis in June. Metro has continued to accept the cars since then.
The Times first reported problems with the cars in September 2000, about four months before the first of the cars were to be delivered. Metro workers and sources familiar with the cars said the propulsion systems, dynamic brakes and doors were faulty.
Metro has promised that all the cars' systems will be "safety certified" before they are put into use.
Miss Wu said Metro should not be transporting passengers on cars that officials know have problems.
"They should not be allowed to use them if they don't work properly," she said. "Someone could get hurt or killed."
Today's article
Metro urged to remove new cars
By Jim Keary
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Two Prince George's County Council members, responding to a report in The Washington Times about a woman who was trapped in a malfunctioning train door and dragged down a platform, said yesterday that Metro should take its new subway cars off the tracks until the recurring problems are fixed.
"They need to be removed until they have a clean bill of health. You can't jeopardize your riders because you got a bad deal. They have safety issues here," said council member Audrey Scott, Bowie Republican and chairman of the council's Transportation Committee.
"They should get them off the tracks before they start killing people," said council member Thomas Hendershott, New Carrollton Democrat.
The Times reported yesterday that Li J. Yu, 58, of Cheverly got caught in the doors of a 5000 series subway car on Jan. 9. Mrs. Yu originally had half of her body hanging outside the car and had to start running when the train began moving.
After being dragged along the length of the Gallery Place platform, she worked her body free and fell, hitting her head. Mrs. Yu was hospitalized and still is afraid to ride the subway alone.
The car she was in was one of the 34 new subway cars purchased from a Spanish firm, CAF of Madrid. The Times found Metro documents that show 25 of the 34 cars had propulsion and door malfunctions that put them out of service in January.
The cars are used exclusively on the Green Line, which runs through the District and Prince George's County.
A train with four 5000 series cars had to be taken out of service Tuesday at 5:40 p.m. at the Waterfront station because of door malfunctions.
Christopher Zimmerman, Metro Board chairman and chairman of the Arlington County Board, said he needs answers to questions about the 5000 series cars before he can decide what needs to be done. He said he is not certain whether the Jan. 9 accident was isolated or was indicative of a trend of the cars' performance.
Metro employees and sources familiar with the 5000 series cars said the wiring on the car involved in the Jan. 9 accident had been modified and did not match the approved wiring diagram. The cars were supposed to be "safety certified" before being placed in service, and Metro officials have not said whether the modifications were made before or after certification.
Mr. Zimmerman said that after the accident, officials found that door circuits were not properly wired, and they inspected all of the other cars
"We need answers. I don't think there is information available to raise the broader issue [of removing all the cars from service]," Mr. Zimmerman said. "One of the basic questions is: 'Are these certified?' I don't know the answer to that question. It is important procedures are being followed and that anything we are running on the system meets safety specifications.
"It [the accident involving Mrs. Yu] is disturbing to everyone. It sure would be terrifying," he said.
He said the Metro Board will discuss the accident during today's meeting.
Fred Goodine, Metro's Safety Department director, said he has been conducting an investigation and found that the circuit board for the door was faulty. He said the flaw appears to have come from CAF's Madrid plant.
He said that the focus of his investigation is how the faulty circuit board got through CAF quality control and was installed on the train. He said he has no evidence to show that the failure was anything other than an isolated incident.
"There is no reason now for me to believe that we have a fleetwide problem," Mr. Goodine said.
Ted Williams, an attorney who represents Mrs. Yu, said yesterday that he will conduct an independent investigation.
"We are confident there was negligence on the part of Metro that could have caused Mrs. Yu to lose her life," Mr. Williams said. "Clearly, Metro should remove these cars. They should inspect them. My belief is if they continue to use these cars, it could result in someone losing their life."
Cheryl Johnson, Metro spokeswoman, said Metro apologized for taking so long getting back to Mrs. Yu. The transit agency was trying to contact her yesterday and intends to pay her $1,300 hospital bill.
Jennifer Wu, who lives with Mrs. Yu, said the Cheverly woman was glad to see Metro taking action.
"She is much happier now. She is relieved someone cares," Miss Wu said.
D.C. Council member David Catania, a member of the Metro Board, said the board would investigate the Jan. 9 accident and the other mechanical failures on the 5000 series cars.
Mr. Catania, at-large Republican and chairman of the council's Public Services Committee, said board members have been told repeatedly that the cars have been fixed, but it appears the problems remain. He said he did not know whether Metro should take the cars out of service.
"We have been told that through remedial actions the cars have been brought up to speed. It is apparent they have not," Mr. Catania said. "I am troubled by the high degree of failures. We have to raise the question before someone is seriously hurt."
Decatur Trotter, a Metro Board member who represents Prince George's County, also said he had been assured that the 5000 series cars were being fixed before being put into service.
"It was my impression they were testing them and they would not put them on the road unless they passed the tests," said Mr. Trotter, a former Maryland state senator. "The doors are supposed to open and close automatically and are supposed to open when someone is [caught] in there. According to the general manager and the people he designates, they are working," Mr. Trotter said.
Mr. Trotter and other board members said they were not aware of the accident until it was reported in The Times.
The Times first reported problems with the cars in September 2000, about four months before the first of the cars were to be delivered. Metro workers and sources familiar with the cars said the propulsion systems, dynamic brakes and doors were faulty.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42014-2002Feb20.html
>>> The transit agency was trying to contact her yesterday and intends to pay her $1,300 hospital bill <<<
Yeah, and try to get her to sign a release of all further liability.
Tom
Don't the cars have brake cords in them??
Why use the intercom to the T/O, pull the dang thing. Ohh maybe they don't have them and/or they are like the new fangle TA ones that don't work after 600 ft.
Does anybody know why didn't the Electric Railroad Association never chartered a "farewell" fantrip to the R12/14/15/16/21/22 and R27? Just curious!
In recent postings of mine arguing the validity of long-distance rail service, I fear I was not clear-enough on one of my main points.
Long-distance trains do not only serve their endpoints!
Let's continue the CHI-PIT-HAR-PHL-NYP example. Certainly, most travelers opt to fly between New York and Chicago, and this is understandable, given the time-savings of air travel in this case. So let's say Amtrak discontinues the Three Rivers, or cuts it back to run only between NYP and HAR, or NYP and PHL, or PHI and HAR (aha - our present Keystone service! Imagine if a couple of these trains served Pittsburgh too!). All those passengers wishing to travel by train between HAR and PIT, or LAC and PIT, or HAR and CHI, or Altoona and HAR, or Johnstown and PHL, or Altoona and PIT lose passenger rail as an alternative. PIT-CHI passengers are left with the less-than-daily Capitol Limited, if that's not cut or cut back as well. And what about Akron-CHI, or Cleveland-PIT, or Johnstown-Lancaster, or countless others. Sure, you could run individual trains between all of those destinations, but it makes more sense for a single train to traverse the entire route and serve those passengers using the stops in between. This is a better allocation of resources and more than justifies the through-routing. This same example can be applied to all of the longer distance trains in Amtrak's system. A railway hub-and-spoke system, which is what the corridor-only viewpoint argues, makes no sense because unless there is also a means to travel between the hubs.
>>> Sure, you could run individual trains between all of those destinations, but it makes more sense for a single train to traverse the entire route and serve those passengers using the stops in between. This is a better allocation of resources and more than justifies the through-routing. <<<
The idea that it is a better allocation of resources by running long distance through trains is part of the old thinking of railroads from a time when there was no competition and they were the only game in town for the inter-city traveler. It is similar to what Henry Ford is reputed to have said about the Model T Ford. "Give them any color they want, as long as it is black." It is necessary to have the trains running where and when the passengers want them, not when it is easiest for the railroad. Rail should generally run similar to the air routes where generally passengers fly during the day and freight at night. A through train that stops at an intermediate stop at 3:00 A.M. is not sensitive to the needs of the travelers. Passenger rail is a service industry, and therefore it needs to run when and where passengers want it to go. When a train runs day and night from the East coast to the West coast, many of the intermediate stops are going to have service at extremely odd hours. With the exception of a few tourist trains, marketed similarly to cruise ships, most trains should not run longer than six hours at a time. That is not saying that any equipment should not be utilized more than six hours. It might be swept out and either return to its origin or be sent to another destination as another train on the same day.
Tom
But most of us want the trains running through the night, Tom. Yes, ideally it would be nice to have multiple schedules running in a given 24-hour interval, but the overall ridership isn't there to support it any more (the exception being the Silver Service and a few others, where you can pick three different departure times from NY Penn [0745, 1135, and 1905, plus the all-coach Carolinian departing NYP at 0605]). I'd rather take the Silver Meteor and get into Rocky Mount at 0305 the next morning (and did, many times) rather than having to wait my departure from New York until at least three hours after that time and take the Carolinian, although when my schedule permitted I'd take the Silver Star and leave NYP at 1135, arriving Rocky Mount at 2048 after a nice dinner in the diner.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
True, having trains operate at times other than the wee hours at every station would be ideal! But this would require a huge increase in the number of trains on the road and personnel to serve them and the cooperation of the freight railroads. If we're dealing with what we've got now, or even with a modest increase in service and equipment, through-routing is not merely a vestige of "public-be-damned" railroad thinking, but also our only choice. If the choice is between no service or service at 3am, I'll take service at 3am, where I can board, settle-in, and snooze till my destination.
>>> If we're dealing with what we've got now, or even with a modest increase in service and equipment, through-routing is not merely a vestige of "public-be-damned" railroad thinking, but also our only choice. <<<
But I am not dealing with what we have now, I am looking forward to what the place of passenger rail transportation should be in this country. I do not hold the idea that we must keep what we have now.
>>> If the choice is between no service or service at 3am, I'll take service at 3am, where I can board, settle-in, and snooze till my destination. <<<
And I would go the other way. I say if the choice is between poor inconvenient service at a high cost to the taxpayers and no service, service should be ended. Passenger rail assets should be consolidated in the areas where they can be used efficiently rather than stretched across the nation.
Tom
Something just occured to me...
Might a major investment in building regional systems be a first step toward a real effective nationwide system? Suppose decent regional systems were built, and people got used to travelling on trains again, for the shorter hauls. Then suppose the systems expanded, as the towns 50 miles past the terminals clamor for service. I can see the systems in time growing into one another. For example, it woudln't take much for a good Chicago-based Midwest web and a NEC-based Eastern web to grow into each other as the Chicago system spreads into Ohio and the Easter web grows toward Pittsburgh...
Conceivable?
Mark
>>> I can see the systems in time growing into one another. <<<
In the East, they would be overlapping and interlocking from the beginning. It is the wide open areas of the West, in the deserts and mountains where there would be hardly any passenger trains.
Tom
At first, probably. But suppose the Los Angeles web includes a Las Vegas train. Eventually Las Vegans may want to be able to get to Salt Lake and Denver as conveniently as LA. New lines go in. Then Denver travellers will want to get to Kansas City as conveniently as they get to Salt Lake. Of course, Kansas City would by then already be connected to Chicago.
I'm not saying this will happen over night, nor will there ever be as many trains running across Nevada as there are across New Jersey, but build the regional networks, and in a few decades such bridging could happen.
Mark
One problem with the logic though for those who ARE trying to go a long distance - constant changing of trains and LAYOVERS. If someone wanting to do NYC to ChiTown or LA to Florida has to deal with disconnected local systems, it's quite conceivable that the trip would involve going 200 miles, then sitting in some crusty old terminal for ten hours waiting to go on the next leg of their trip, another 200 miles.
Airlines with their ridiculous "hub structures" are a perfect example of this - let's say I want to go Albany to Cleveland with a side trip to MEMPHIS? I don't think so.
I'm a spectator on this thread, but the idea of a Balkan train system is so entirely unappealing, might as well just dynamite the tracks and if I wanted to get there, well hell ... I'll just do it in a road yacht SUV ... no, scratch that, a Rockefeller Center on wheels - yep, a Champion, Coachman or other heavily armed RV ... hell, a fleet of them would pollute less than one jet ...
Don't mind me, just had to spout. I contribute at least $2000 a year towards Amtrak's operating expenses, so I consider myself an investor. Damned lot cheaper than an RV and doesn't leave a crater in the ground when the tail falls off ...
It seems to me that the key to changing the mess of long-distance train travel in this country is tremendously improving speeds and travel times. Until that occurs there will not be any good way to improve what we have now. I am going to be traveling Amtrak (the Three Rivers) from Pittsburgh to New York in a couple of weeks. The trip takes 11 hours going, and 10 hours returning. By chance these trips both occur during daytime hours - provided that I am lucky with regard to Amtrak's 40-50% on-time performance at Pittsburgh.
The promising maglev system that is proposed in the Pittsburgh area today can reach traveling speeds of up to 300mph. It is thought that this could lead to 90min-2hrs trips between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. If Amtrak is such a failure, let's realign our funding to a new-technology system that could revolutionize train travel, rather than piecemeal changes that rely on an already-in-place lousy system. I like the notion of building super-regional systems as mentioned, and then combining them, but let's do it with maglev technology.
Karl Burdhardt has favored us with his memory of the old Marcy Avenue station--before the rebuild, at.
http://myrecollection.com/burkhardtk/marcy.html
This really takes me back. Especially recalling the places on the subway and el system where you felt like you were going to be crushed or blown off--there were a lot until recently!
Pretty cool. A few weeks back we had a very interesting few posts about Marcy also.
It takes me back, too. I boarded my first train (of two) of R-16s at Marcy Ave. on Sept. 23, 1967. My first thought was, what's a 15?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42014-2002Feb20.html
>>> The transit agency was trying to contact her yesterday and intends to pay her $1,300 hospital bill <<<
Yeah, and try to get her to sign a release of all further liability.
Tom
- A class of about 52 will hit the road tomorrow on the A div
- Two more classes are in session right now, and will get out
in four weeks, and eight weeks respectively (mostly A div)
- Another class starts in two weeks, and will all go A div, while
another class starts about four weeks after that
- The R 143's are said to be hitting the 5 line on 3/4
- There are at least 5 10-car 143's in E.180/Unionport waiting
for the 3/4 start
The R 143's are said to be hitting the 5 line on 3/4
Hitting indeed! I hope the passengers waiting on the platform are instructed to stand well behind the yellow line.
Re-read your post and tell me if anything seems out of place.
Hint: B Division MU's on A Division trackage.
A Div. don't need all these T/O's. I seen Saturday sheets all the New T/O's under DX are sitting at the Terminals for GAP and WAA.
I did see the March class doing road posting and Road similation. They seem like a nice group and look like they enjoy the job.
R 142's on the No.5 Line may start as early as 3/1/02.
Dude the first thing you need to learn before entering School car is that B div. trains can't run on A div. tracks. And the R143 is a B div. train which is for the L line. Now what you have been seeing in Unionport is R142's
I think you meant to whack LuchAAA's peepee there - No 6 Pelham Express knows what a cluephone is, and actually picks up when it rings. :)
But I'd be willing to buy a fun pass if they're planning on sending a 143 up the 5 line ... hell, I'd pay a premium for cab admittance for THAT ride!
Good point Selkirk! If Mustang is going to "whack" anyone's "pee pee", he should first learn how to respond to a message.
Heh. Now about them 143's. :)
I dont think he knows about the upcoming 143 crunch if what he says is true
All I want is the salvage rights after the 143 gets routed up the 5 line. I'm sure there'll be enough pieces of a cab to make a whole one after the mass-bashing ... as much as I'd prefer to have an R9 cab in the corner of the company bar here, I *would* settle for an R143 console - I can run BVE on it. :)
actually it might beat the platforms into dust the tunnel would be VERY Interesting
Oh, I'm sure it wouldn't get very far without getting crimped like a champagne cork ... but I'm sure the original poster actually meant an R142 and not a 143 ... I'd hate to see the 143's get scuffed administering a shave. :)
It depends on the station strength(A b type completely wrecked a Brighton line express station, It was un decided as to weather it was a local or an express station, Sheepshead Bay, i think)
Always good to pay attention to one's car assignments. :)
actually it might beat the platforms into dust, the tunnel entrance would be VERY Interesting
That Right!!
Breaking news fron anahiem california home of the original disneyland theme parrk
the monorail broke down near the utopia area if you know where that is ......tomorrowland ...
no injuries however all were evacuated by anahiems fire department by ladder !!
some station exit huh ? .......a ladder !!!
oh well throw the monorail in the ocean with the redbirds ?? .......hmmmm...........!!
as a current orlando native and a long time new york native (till I moved down here) that is common my friend
If it is like the monorail at Disney World, there is no other way to ecavcuate the monorail if it breaks down between stations.
What a lot of people don't realize is that the monorails at Disneyland are almost as old as some of the Redbirds!!!
Yes, that's what I said.....
The current four monorail trains operating at Disneyland had bodies built in 1986-1987 by Ride-N-Show of San Dimas, California -- on the rehabbed chassis of the 1969 monorails that were built by WED (a Disney subsidiary that is now Walt Disney Imagineering....) up in Burbank, California.
The trains in Orlando at Walt Disney World are all Bombardier built.
Surprising that the train was evacuated as Salaam described, as Disneyland does have a diesel tractor on the monorail line that can hook to either end of a train to pull it to either of the two stations on the system.
Thank you for that information! I never asked who built the Monorail at Disney World when I was there.
Good point ... the ONE advantage Anaheim has though is it ain't as humid as NYC with the "salt air" to eat them faster. :)
Okay, found out what happened (I have connections inside Disneyland...)
It seems there was a problem with a train at the Disneyland Hotel station.....malfunctioning brakes (would not release). A following train was about 3/4 of the way there, so it was decided to back up into the Tomorrowland station.
Meantime, maintenance people were trying to work on the train stuck at the hotel....and did something that cut the power to the entire system. For some reason it could nto be restored.
So there was no way to activate the ONE track beam switch to get the diesel tractor out, and the train that was backing got stuck a hundred feet or so before making it back to the station.
Main thing is, nobody got hurt.
And this incident happened on President's Day......the news didn't leak it out then for some strange reason.
>>> And this incident happened on President's Day......the news didn't leak it out then for some strange reason. <<<
That made it really tough on the passengers. I watched them on live TV being evacuated from the cars this afternoon. :-)
Tom
TV claims it was live -- it happened MONDAY.
I always love when the TV news claims something is live -- reporter is in broad daylight, though you're watching the 11 PM news!!!
Here's a story found on the web about the situation....2/18 was MONDAY.
[Mouse Planet reader Chad reported to editor Al Lutz on 2/18 that there had been some problems on the monorail.]
[Al, my wife and I are annual passholders who are often at the Disneyland Resort with our two small children. We spend a lot of time on the train, the Mark Twain, the Columbia, and Monorails Orange, Purple and (recently) Red.]
[As we left the station at around 2:30 p.m. on Monday (President's Holiday), the monorail made it as far as the Grand Californian and stopped. On the wall above the track I could see the flashing strobe light of a fire alarm. And there we sat for at least ten minutes, with only a short announcement saying that there were "technical difficulties" up ahead.]
[Then with a lurch and another quick announcement we backed slowly all the way through DCA out to the track by Harbor Blvd. There we stopped and sat another five minutes. After another brief announcement, this time about the "difficulties" being taken care of, we were on our way again in the proper direction.]
[If we could have gotten off at Downtown Disney we would have, but our strollers were still parked by the station in Tomorrowland. There was another long stop on the tracks near the Matterhorn even though the monorail in the station ahead of us had cleared the station quite some time before.]
[Over forty-five minutes later we were back where we'd started with no clue as to what had happened. Can you shed any light on this?]
>>> Here's a story found on the web about the situation....2/18 was MONDAY. <<<
I think that was another incident, since it does not mention the evacuation of the passengers by ladder, which is what was happening on live TV on Wednesday afternoon. This was not a recap on the late news, it was the full "breaking news" treatment with the helicopter hovering overhead and the anchors not knowing what was happening. Similar to freeway chases.
This was a loss of power to the whole monorail system, the story from Monday seems to be one train having problems.
Tom
Hmm, could be -- my source didn't know anything of the Wednesday thing. I don't bother watching the television news, as it's nothing but pure crap here in southern California.
I don't bother watching the television news, as it's nothing but pure crap here in southern California.
Just like everywhere else in the country.
Wouldn't surprise me if they were two separate incidents ... sometimes when you do a repair, it passes testing and out she goes only to croak two miles down the road ... happens to "real" railraods too. :)
That would par for the course at Disneyland.
Everything there, including their maintenance department, is 100% MICKEY MOUSE.
Donald Duck! :)
Little mishap with some live equipment would be all that's needed and then he's Dead Duck. Maintainance of trains isn't Mickey Mouse work...
-Robert King
Goofy as a car maintainer ... yeah, that'd work. :)
Okay, there were TWO incidents.
One happened on Presidents' Day (Monday, 2-18). That was the one reported at MousePlanet web site.
I found out last night from someone who works there, that on 2-21 there was the major incident which Salaam pointed us to. Surprisingly enough, there wasn't much in the newspapers right here in Orange County (I live ten miles from the front gate of Disneyland). The whole thing got a whole column inch, with the usual Disneyland fluff from their PR man ("It was a minor electrical problem...."
The incident which cause the train evacuation was a result of an electrical shoe beam (similar to the electrical pickups on subway trains...and just about the same voltage, etc.) coming loose from a train near the Disneyland Hotel. It supposedly shorted out the entire system, and the train the had to be evacuated just happened to be heading back into the park (from the hotels) when the power went down and it was right ON the one switch leading to the storage/maintenance area. So, no way to get the diesel tractor out to tow/push it to the Tomorrowland station.
Once it was determined that the power was going to be off for an extended period of time, the Anaheim F.D. was requested to bring extension ladders to get the people 16 feet down from the train. As there was no access road into the exact area where the train was stopped (with the Disneyland R.R. steam trains right below, as well as the Autopia car ride and lots of landscaping) this was the only way to get the people down. No injuries, just a lot of worrying.
Supposedly the train that had the problem that started the whole mess was out of service for almost a year or so (the red train) and it just recently went back in service just before the Christmas holidays. It was being used for parts....I wonder if they didn't hastily put it back together to get it in service.
Can you imagine coming to Disney and having to evacuate the train. They could have stayed home and went to work on what ever they commute on and had the same experience!
....and they would have paid a helluva lot less.
One day fare at Dismal-land nowadays is $43.00!!!!
I was just at Disney World in Florida about 3 weeks ago and it was close to $50 a day there, for single day tickets. I got the 5 day hopper pass, and I believe that was $219.00 (didn't get stuck on the monorail though.......)
>>> They could have stayed home and went to work on what ever they commute on and had the same experience! <<<
Not quite. Because of the monorail design, you cannot just leave the train and walk back to the station. Here they needed the fire department to respond with aerial ladders.
Tom
They didn't even need aerial ladders. The train was a whole 16 feet off the ground. No way to even get a fire truck next to the beam where the traing ot stuck -- firefighters had to hand carry portable extension ladders in.
"...the news didn't leak...out" It sounds like the Pentagon could learn a few lessons from Disney on controlling the news.
Did they call out some buses?
No hand throws for those 15,000 pound monorail beams?
Maybe "Power Assist" like my VW.
Actually, what the problem was...was that the train that got stuck was right where the beam would move.
A few years ago (1989?), they had a problem with one of the trains leaving the shop, and the operator screwed up and backed the Monorail Blue end car right off the open "switch" beam. Since that happened, modifications to the circuitry was done, so that the power cannot be applied to the shop spur until the beam switch is in proper position. (The way Disneyland's system is set up, all trains must back out of the shop onto the mainline beams.)
YEAAAAH!
"Next stop, Tomorrowland. Watch the fuckin' doors..."
-- David
Chicago, IL
Salaam is going to want to have your baby for that shot. :)
Now THAT is a definite improvement!!!
Need to do also a blue one, a purple one, and an orange one to get the whole fleet!!
last one out of disneyland burn it to the ground...
So how's the railfan window on those monorails?
So how's the railfan window on those monorails?
I haven't seen the Anaheim monorails, but the Orlando sets have an excellent railfan window.
The ones in Anaheim are just as good, though less roomy owing to smaller size of the trainsets. About five people can cram in up there, the operator sits in the right rear corner of the cab compartment. Only problem is, you don't want to do it on a hot summer day as it's like a mobile sauna without the rocks with all that plexiglass. (Air conditioning is marginal...)
see !! maybe it would make a good video after all !!
Actually, you COULD do a video up there...but the curved plexiglass is NOT perfectly clear. Everything distorts, and the glare factor is high. Maybe doing it on a cloudy day might have its advantages.
I did a video on the Seattle Monorail....and the glare was a major problem (so was the extremely bumpy ride). Funny thing about the Seattle monorail -- it has the same exact controls as NYCTA Redbirds!! Even the horn sounded the same!
The Bally's - MGM monorial even though there are seats (its just like the older CA Disney stuff) in the operators cab they don't let you ride up there no matter how you ask.
I tried a couple of times.
I videotaped the run from the Monte Carlo to Bellagio's (from the side anyway). The funny thing is I don't even remember it. It was late at night on superbowl Sunday about 3 years ago, and I was so drunk that the only way I know I was on it was from the video. I guess even in that state of mind, I knew to take out the video camera! (and it came out pretty good!)
....and what ELSE was on the videotape done while inebriated?? :-)
Luckily, I only turned it on , on the train..........
....hehehehe....
When I read your post I immediately thought of the videocamera situation in National Lampoon European Holiday!!!
Rough day on the street today:
Dow Jones down 106.49 or 1.07%
Nasdaq down 59.33 or 3.34%
S&P 500 down 17 & change or 1.55%
Transit Related Stocks:
Cummins Engines up 1.48 to 39.66
Kawasaki Heavy Industry UNCH to 3.40
DiamlerChrysler (owns MCI and Orion) up .58 to 37.53
Would have been more fun two years ago.
Rough day on the street today:
Dow Jones down 106.49 or 1.07%
Nasdaq down 59.33 or 3.34%
S&P 500 down 17 & change or 1.55%
Transit Related Stocks:
Cummins Engines up 1.48 to 39.66
Kawasaki Heavy Industry UNCH to 3.40
DiamlerChrysler (owns MCI and Orion) up .58 to 37.53
What about Bombardier?
By the way, today's stock drops (which in the case of the Dow occurred almost entirely in the last hour of trading) just confirms my belief that stock market investors are ignorant schmucks. They ignored positive economic news to focus on an earning warning from Ciena and an aanlyst's negative comments on Intel. It's like no one cares about anything but technology companies. Wake up, idiots, technology is only a small part of the economy. Maybe stock traders are in awe of tech stocks because deep down they know that they're not smart enough to be programmers or engineers.
I was able to see the AirTrain work today. It's comming out verry well and I saw a truck on thw AirTrain Tracks when my bus was going over the Belt Parkaway and the I-678 and JFK Airport part of AirTrain is done so far.
A) Why did they remove the plexiglass barrier on the upper half of the panel between the doors and the seats in the R46? After reading about how to tell the R44 from the R46, it occurred to me that I really like not having somebody's frizzy long hair or thick down jacket in my face :)
B) Would having offset doors (R32 style) have any downsides? I know the R32 has to have it because of its corner cabins, but you could easily rearrange some of the edge seating. It seems that it would reduce the average distance between any person and a door at least somewhat. Does anyone else prefer this?
The R143s also have opposing doors IIRC... so it must be for a reason I assume?
As a sidenote, seeing R62s on the 7 line is odd :) I saw one as I was biking towards the bridge over the train yard before the 59th Street Bridge.
Theoretically, nobody should be standing in the doorwell. Maybe that's why the barrier was removed on the R-46.
Offset doors are generally considered superior to straight-across doors because they don't permit a small group of passengers to block both sides and prevent all movement well into the train. That didn't mean much in the 70's, when everything had to look "modern" (as well as the R-44 and R-46 orders, consider the BMT Broadway retilings), and that meant subway cars that look like commuter rail cars but aren't suited for the crowds on many subway lines.
I think the R-143 has offset doors in the cars without cabs. That's definitely the case on the R-142(A). The doors are wider, too.
I think the vandals got to a lot of the plexiglass partitions next to the doors on the R-46s -- a lot of them had already been kicked out by some of our more feisty yutes even before the cars were GOHed and there may have just been a decision during GOH to leave it as it was.
Caught the 0735 #7 at 90th/Elmhurst this morning towards manhattan. I rode the lead car, #2150 and enjoyed the railfan window all the way to QBP. At long last, modernity on the 7. Woohoo.
Dan
I'll be there in a couple of weeks, does anyone have the schedule in the AM rush on weekdays when the R62A's are running to Times Square? I usually board the 7 at Hunterspoint Avenue (the terminus of most LIRR diesel trains)?
I was told today by the guy in the booth at the 7 ts station that they have no schedule... they run when they want was his words...
After all, the R-62As don't require a 30-Day Test<>!
The only "schedule" is IF a Train Service Supervisor has to be assigned to (re) familiarize employees with R-62A operations. Most crews don't require such assistance.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Can someone who downloaded the L-Train .exe or .zip file post it on here so people can download it? It seems the site is down. Thanks
-R62's rock
For me too!!!
ditto!
Did it ever occur to you that the site is down and the only thing to do is to wait patiently? Note the resemblence between the sim and reality, they both take an eternity to arrive.
Go to http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/routes/NYCT-L/index.html There are links at the bottom of the page. I just tested them and they all work.
greetings everyone, today i was coming back from union square to see if i can attempt a double whammy:
1. ride on the r142a (6)
2. ride on the r62a (6)
the first mission wasnt of much importance, but i was really looking foward to riding on a silver 7 train. so, it seems that due to the heavy crowd, i had to settle w/ a r62a 6 train (mission 1 = bust). i got off at grand central. and anxiously waited with a r62a 7 train with my camera ready:
1 train passes.....redbird, so i skipped it......the second train......redbird, so i skipped it again..
this went on and after 4 redboids passed by, i got impatient, so i boarded a redbird express. now as a footnote, dont take this wrong, i love my redbirds, i just wanted to experience the flushing line on a different train set. i thought i'd never see it in action, until upon passing by shea stadium, i saw the silverboid crawling out of the yard into service, that was about 4:45pm...but how?? was it out of service for most of the day? but anyhow, i was glad i can finally see w/ my own eyes the possible future of the 7 line (well, at a distance)....(mission 2 = partially accomplished)
until then
---jonathan c
small typo people:
>>>1. ride on the r142a (6)<<<
>>>2. ride on the r62a (6)*<<<
* - change (6) to (7)
sorry folks :)
---jonathan c
hey.. i waited at times square for 30 mins then asked the boss... he said the silver 7 was laid up in the yard until the evening rush
BOO HOO I WANTED TO SEE IT DAMNIT hehe
tomm i try for the new L
wow, that definetly explains everything. i know how u feel though, heh
Elmer Fudd didn't talk with a Brooklyn accent.:-)
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.
Scwewy Wedbirds.
Hey....those of us who actually talk wike dat take dat as an insult!
Not so "hahahahahaha"!
And I wanna see dose silvaboids too.....(on da numba seven)
Stuart D. Guberman
Engineer # 018
Vice President - Virtual Philadelphia & Washington Railroad
(www.vamtrak.8m.com)
I've been taking the (7) every day this week, hoping to ride on or at least catch a good look at the R62A. It's been nothing but frustration! Dat wascawy twain ewudes me evewy singew time! Tuesday I went to look at the Corona Yard from the ramp, and then the R62A goes by Willets Point. I coulda had it if I hadn't gone up the ramp! Then yesterday morning I looked from my redbird at every train going back to Queens. Then at Vernon-Jackson, I was at the part of the train where you couldn't see across at that station (the wall extends most of the length of the station), I heard those door chimes! Dagnabit!!!! Then yesterday evening I waited at Willets Point for half an hour for one to go by. I gave up. Then immediately after I got to street level I heard the door chime again. "You know what I think? I think THAT was the wabbit!" And so it was! I shook my fist and said DAMN YOU!!!!!
I'll get it sooner or later!
:-) Andrew
LOL!!!
That wascally wabbit! lol!
I was under the el structure near Fisk when I saw the R62A's pass right above me, heading toward Woodside-61st St! I was so angry!
The heat was nice, the windows were scratch free. The annoucments were crystal clear. The ride was smooth. People looked like they never seen it before. With me being a constant 4 rider was laughing, but even it was weird for us subway fans seeing it on the 7, its like seeing the car for the first time. People were happy though, one person said "at least we are gonna get A/C this summer"
I rode it from Queensboro Plaza to Times Square to Main via Express and back to 46 Street on Tuesday and I STILL think it's weird to see them on the 7.
I rode the 7 for years every day, and remember having AC in the summer time, I don't understand the comment, and another thing, from
what I remember the announcements were pretty clear too.
Why put down these old cars they ran great.
Maybe that particular commuter rode on one too many R36's with poor A/C. Or he rode in the single R33's during those summers when they weren't taken out of service. There were some summers in which the 7 ran with 11-car trains.
Was the 2 car blind unit rebuilt into a n R44, or was it scrapped. (could it be the soac?)
It was not rebuilt, but shipped back to SLC for finishing.
When last I rode the subway,about a year ago, I noticed that the newer cars have different couplers than the older cars did (Redbirds, R1, R10, etc.) Were the older cars capable of being coupled together? Were the control mechanisms compatable? Same questions for newer cars.Looking at the older couplers, I saw integrated air lines for brakes, but how were control signals, door signals, etc transmitted from car to car?
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
The "older" couplers are H2C. You would not normally be able
to see the electric portion (which has the pins that connect
the electrical circuits between the cars) when looking at the
coupler on the end of a train because it is kept covered by a
spring-loaded cover plate. The portion is at the very bottom of
the coupler. All "SMEE" cars R10-R42 were capable of being coupled
and operated together.
The newer couplers are hook-and-pin style originally made by
Ohio Brass. The R44, R46, R142, R142A and R143 cars have these
couplers. None of these car classes can be coupled to any of the
others and operate correctly. Although in theory the R44 and R46
were designed to interchange, ditto for the R142 and R142A,
subtle differences in implementation prevent this.
Jeff, as currently configures, coupling R-44 to R-46 would be nightmarishly interesting. R-44s still have no feed valves and BP air is 135 - 150 PSI. R-46s, with NYAB packages require BP pressure of 90 - 110 PSI. I suspect that the R-46s would pull the R-44 right down.
I'm not sure what would happen. It would be fun to try. The
westcode R44s don't have feed valves, but they must have some kind
of choke or check valve between main air and the BP pipe of the
brake stand, right? I think the two cars would basically work
together, so long as the R44's emergency contactor isn't screwed
down so tight that it actually requires more than 110 psi. I don't
remember any kind of safety valve on the NYAB package that would
blown down from excessive BP pressure. Not sure what would happen
in emergency when the R44 puts full pressure on the SAP.
The R-1/9s had H2A couplers. They look similar to H2Cs; in fact, the coupler head is the same. That's where the similarity ends. The R-1/9s had completely different braking and propulsion systems than their postwar SMEE brethren and could not operate in multiple unit with them. One of our posters outlined the procedure once of coupling an R-9 to an R-10 iron-to-iron; it's pretty involved. This was done only in yard moves and never in revenue service.
Actually iron-to-iron coupling of an H2A to and H2C is pretty
easy, just pull back and lock the electric portion levers and
close all the angle cocks.
There is a way to mix SMEE and AMUE that was known as an
"air-9 hitch". You have to close the angle cock corresponding
to the upper tappet valve (SAP on SMEE, MR on AMUE), but you
leave the BP open. You then have trainline emergency braking.
Hey! Can we try this with the R-9 and the R-17 at Branford?
-Stef
That's something I never heard of before. In fact, the only SMEE-AMUE hitch I ever heard of was only in a training lesson when I was in RCI school. If you are to believe the story, it didn't end too well.
Okay, I've seen the SD-100's from Denver (and others) and the SD-160's from Calgary (If anyone has no idea, check 'em out at the site, they should be up!)
Now here's something that bothers me: What are the pros and cons to the high and low platforms, in your opinions? In terms of LRT, of course.
-J!
High platforms provide quicker loading & unloading of the cars. LRV tend to do some street running vs. private ROW, which slows them down further, but cost less then a private ROW & high platforms.
So it's volume & cost that tends to dictate. Boston's Green line is a interesting exception. It runs multiple & articulated cars from several divisions into one line to downtown.
Mr rt__:^)
High platforms = qwuicker loading, no injuries from passengers negotiating steps.
Low platforms = lower initial cost.
Could anyone tell me how they got the R62a's on the 7 line since it's not connected to any other IRT Line?
But the 7 is connected to the N, and the N is connected (eventually) to the D, and the D is connected to the 4, and the 4 is connected to the rest of IRT-world.
Either that or they went down the ramps at Times Square. (Or the escalator. Maybe that's why the up escalator is broken again!)
The 1 connects to the A, the A connects to the F, the F connects to the W, the W runs along with the N to Astoria, where the 7's crossover is.
What ramp at Times square? Also The MTA could build a connection from the shuttle to the 7 line giving it acess to westside IRT.
There are two elaborate networks of ramps connecting the 7 mezzanine to the 1/2/3 mezzanine at Times Square.
The shuttle is about three levels above the 7 at Times Square. No subway train would be able to handle such a steep grade.
They couls always put in a super-heavy duty elevator.:-)
But what about a 11/10 car elevator? Unless you want then to uncouple each trainset (2 cars for redbirds, 5 for r-62) and send each one down one at a time which would take about 2 hours the IRT to IND/BMT to IRT thing better.
osmosis.
Both would be long, but here are some ways.....
1). Concourse Yard connector between the #4 and the D line, run via the D line to 34/6, cross over to northbound tracks, run via the 63rd line to the Lexington layup tracks behind the Lex-63 station. Double-end, head down the connector from the 63rd Cut to the Broadway line (N, R, W) to 57-7, then run via the Broadway-60th Street tubes, take an N line lineup, run via N line to Queensboro Plaza, where there they are crossed over to the # 7 line (the upper level crossover is the ONLY physical connection the # 7 line has to the rest of the system)
2). From 207th Yard, from the 7th Avenue line yard lead into 207th yard, run via the A line to Jay Street (crossed over to the F line north of Jay) run down via the F line to C.I. Yard, (sent over the loop in the yard, leading then to the N line north, or run over the F all the way into Stillwell, then north to the N line) then switched over to the N line for the run all the way to Queensboro Plaza via the N line, where again they are crossed over to the #7 line (the upper level crossover is the ONLY physical connection the # 7 line has to the rest of the system)
All would be done during the late night hours (known by us here at the T.A. as an "interdivisional transfer", which primarily is done during the late night hours to avoid tying up passenger traffic)
Here's another possibility....
(this one is not too likely, but a possiblity)....
Running (with diesel help) from north of Junius Street, via the Linden Yard flyover, thru the Linden Yard, then (with NYCT-owned SBK using their trackage rights over the NYAR Bay Ridge line) run via the Bay Ridge to the 39th Street Yard (NYCH, NYRR, SBK), then run via (either) D1 or D2 track connection to the W and M line north of Ninth Avenue, then run north via 4th Ave, Montague Tunnel/Broadway, then via the N thru 60th St tube, and Q.P. connection to the # 7.
Another....(not too likely either)
Linden Yard flyover off the # 1 line (diesel help up to the L line....Linden Yard has NO third rail power!), switched over to the L line connection from the Linden Yard, up the L to Broadway Jct., then over the J to the Nassau Street line, thru to the Montague Tube, wrong
railed to Whitehall Street, switched over to the northbound tracks, north all the way to 60th Street Tubes, then N line to Q.P., crossed again to the # 7.
Again if anything all of these moves would have to be done during the late night hours (interdivisional transfers)
Well, going by Linden Yard would certainly be an interesting move! Since, Linden is a non-electrified, MOW Yard, it would seem unlikely they'd want to do moves through there, and go though the hassle of coupling diesels.
Still I'd pay to ride a passenger train out of Linden with diesels.....
-Stef
A pipe dream on mine would be to see Gershows pluck a slant car or two off the L line structure and drop them into the car shredding machine off the side at Sutter Avenue. I'd pay to see that.
I would too!! lol
Ohhhhhhhhh my!
Your satanic side must be speaking. I need to remember you love scrap metal.
$ Signs for you?
-Stef
I call the shots because I took them.
Where is this picture?
I recall that at Sarnelli Brothers, Staten Island. That was an R27, one of a few they painted red for a week or two. They were so unreliable, they scrapped them. These were the first "redbirds" to be scrapped, many alongside the R10s.
nice pics
--jonathan c
There are tears in my eyes. It is disturbing. But feel free to post more.
WORRY when he changes his handle to "Engine BREAK" ... :)
Aye. Then I know he's gone off the deep end! Lol.
I nearly went off the deep end with my How Odd! Post some weeks ago. A Branford colleague said I sounded like I was high. Sniff, sniff.
-Stef
You gotta try this for a putin speaking of the deep end. Using a shoe paddle jammed against the window brackets pushing on the COMCO buttons and a roll of duct tape to hold your favorite headset to the mic, perform kareoke to Norman Greenbaum. Now you are off the deep end, just like a rustbird. Selkirk, do not attempt this on an R9.
Hahahaha ... they DID try to hook up a few square boxes in some R9's in order to experiment with a PA like system in a few of them. After showing off their fine work to the super at Coney, one of the cars burst into flame ... pity Karaoke hadn't been invented at that time.
But they DID issue megaphones ... I kid you not ... another bright idea from the holy ronan empire ... they actually thought we could let go of the door controls and serenade the platforms until a steward asked a wiglet to show him how it was done. :)
C'mon, you were burning up brake shoes and laughing at the blue smoke, toasting marshmellows over the grids, and igniting sign curtains. I even have PROFF you installed your own PA while getting your cheeks pinched between cars.
Sshhhhhhhh! Heh. Neat effects with the space commander, dad ... and yeah, I admit it, I was a ta pyro ... but it was always a proper schedule AMUE fire, and the lights dimmed properly whenever I clipped a Nathans to the shoe paddle and put it under the car. I guess when I tried the Sabretts trick with the tin of not quite boiling water down there, I went a tad too far. But honestly, it was my follower who left that Zippo in the hatch ... had to do SOMETHING for a marker light. :)
An R10 Blastoff for the Commander in Chief.
Heh ... HEY! I WORK for a living! And yeah, I know EXACTLY what happened there - happened every now and then with the R1/9's as well although never quite as severe as the 10's ... slow release on a car right behind the one where the recording was made, three points the easy way (standard ops back then by the way - when you wrapped it, you turned it like there was only one speed, on or off) and the cylinders were still hung on the car behind. There was a problem with the ports on the 10's where they'd get dust in them and eventually clog. That was one of them on the ratty edge of never releasing again. Been there, dragged that. :)
By the way - one of the MAJOR reasons why the 10's had such a propensity for flat wheels was that port problem that'd lock the shoes when it was time to go. The other 10's coaxed it along and before you knew it, they'd go "clunk-clunk-clunk-clunk" on the rails. DUH ... I know Mr. Pedron is probably pythed for mentioning this ugly aspect, but the R10's REALLY didn't do very well under deferred maintenance ... and 207 and the shop out near Euclid did the best they could to keep 'em running, but they needed TLC (not Taxi and Limousine Conniption) and never got it ...
Like da boids, they were in sorry shape in the 70's ... that they lasted to the 80's merely amplifies the desperation of the TA to have ANYTHING that rolled in those days ...
Now you know why I affectionately refer to the R-10s as Thunderbirds.
And I thought your term "Thunderbirds" were in the vein of "Thunderbirds are go" meaning you liked cheezy kids shows starring puppets. Whoop. :)
R-4 484 at the Transit Museum still has its experimental PA system. Even the mikes are still in place above the trigger boxes.
Oh wow! They actually did some of that prior to my own arrival, but they kept trying to resurrect that incredibly bad idea ... one of these days I'll have to get down there once it's open again and show Nancy what they put me through. Heh.
You mean ... you're NOT from the Bronx? Heh. Subwaysurf posted a while back that all us Bronxers are dopers. So get with the program and wire up that big bad bong ... no bings required! :)
The Bronx? Where is that? Lol.
-Stef
It's that part of the city called "America" ... (mainland United States) ... aw, nevermind. :)
Try giving him cordinents. (56.39, 82.94)
I wish 500 non-railfan cars would go in there.
It's a possibility that this could be done, but as I stated, it really isn't too likely, but the TA has their way of doing things, so you never know!!
Choice number 1 is the shortest way to the Flushing Line from the rest of the IRT. Can someone please find out exactly how the R62A did get to Flushing.
Ever seen an R62 rolling down the center of Main Street? The only problem is trying to fit them through the toll plaza on the Whitestone Br.
No problem, you just let the air out, and they'll fit in a taxi ... the big problem though is re-inflating them unless there's politicos in town. :)
In a perfect world, the NYCTA would use magic.
But magic doesn't really happen at a drop of a hat, so I think that the N and 7 connection right past Queens Plaza station has something to do with it.
The Flushing is an IRT-BMT joint line, so I guess technically it would work.
they are too ugly to roll on the #7 !
I will get my portable steel cutter saw and restore the railfan windows at 2 am in the morning.
You don't think the T/O might notice that you've broken into his cab? Even at 2 in the morning, I don't think he's sleeping -- at least I hope not.
The last car at the end (not the head at the time). Plus nobody will be in the back. Also are there any wires in the wall that was added to the R-62 transverse end?
P.S. I don't even have the right saw to do that or letalone a crowbar. And I am not really going to do it. It was supposed to be a joke.
oh do please shut up.its about time new trains rolled on the 7 and there's nothin you can do about it.
The have a blonde chick with a big pony tail wearing a harem outfit who folds her arms and blinks. At the Willets Pt station, look for clouds of pink smoke coming from the yard.
You saw her, too? :)
--Mark
from concourse or 207, down the d and F to Essex, turn around, go to a station in brooklyn and reverse to the N/W to astoria for the 7
THIS IS JUST A GUESS
The first Corona WF cars have arrived for scrapping:
9370/1 9386/7 9462/3 9418/9 9374/5
Other Dyre Avenue rejects:
7886/7 8730/1 7896/7 8750/1 7860/1 8800/1 and 7866/7
Ready for the barge:
8570/1 8582/3 8668/9 8632/3 8676/7 8640/1 8682/3 8622/3 8566/7 8802/3
8576/7 8624/5 8768/9 8596/7 7806/7 8580/1
The next stop is Seaside, watch the closing doors.
Any chance of diverting one of those barges to Los Angeles via Panama to keep a certain friend of ours deliriously happy trying to explain how a boatload of redbirds (with foam window) ended up parked in front of his house? :)
(LOVE the closing doors bit) ...
"Watch the closing doors"
Wiseass ... I'd give ya the hook, but you'd probably LIKE the barge trip. :)
orange empire museum as museum cars ..
U nut ..
As long as ya gots a place to put 'em in, I'm sure Mr. Munch and I will find a way to divert a boatload for ya. After all, shipments do disappear every now and then in Noo Yawk. Heh.
also send all of the parts trucks etc...
I'm sure they're piled up somewhere ... whoops ... a couple fell over the pier and onto the barge. Bummer ... "some assembly required" ...
WAIT A MINUTE, THE DOORS ARE GONE (8~>)
Wonder if the fish like the picture windows of the R-36 WFs to swim though better than the windows of the mainline cars?
My guess is they will stay with the PATH cars instead. K cars rule.
They could have been used as spare IRT cars?
Hey buddy, you didn't say anything about 7804-05. They were coupled to 7806-07 some weeks ago at Concourse in a picture taken by Glenn Rowe. You realize the first R-26 pair delivered will be a casualty!
-Stef
It wasn't there. Maybe it is in the shop being stripped. Wasn't 7750 the first pair?
Actually no. 7804-05 were delivered before 7750-51.
For some reason later numbered cars appeared before the early ones. As I recall, wasn't R-16 #6400 the first to be delivered before her companions?
-Stef
I just heard the 7804/5 are at CI
Ok..... Something must be brewing.....
-Stef
7804 was the first delivered?
Wow, I have one of 7804's original number plates (courtesy NYC Transit Museum) in my collection. Nice to have a teeny bit of NYCT history. I wish the Redbirds didn't have to go...but it is time. I'll miss 'em. Soon no more railfan riding on the IRT.
Marc
I didn't know that until someone mentioned it to me. But wait.... This may not be the end of 7804 and 05. A SubTalker said the pair had gone down to Coney Island. I hope that's a good thing. I can see the word "Museum" in the air, but this is mere specualtion on my part. The pair was repainted recently, has minimal body rot, and is in good mechanical shape.
-Stef
Are those the ones that may be slated for shipment to the Illinois Railway Museum, if that deal is still on?
--Mark
I have no clue. According to my sources, IRM was slated to get an R-33 Pair, in place of what they originally wanted. But even that may not be etched in stone.
It would be more costly for IRM to do the asbestos abatement with the R-26s than they would with R-33s. In addition, they would have to spend $$$ for shipping the cars to Illinois. Asbestos abatement is mandated, not an option.
-Stef
9321 was stripped in CI
That's true. 8800 and 8801 also came that way....
-Stef
There were WFR33 already Screadded with eacjh set that went out. I gave some numbers before the first batch last for the sea.
Robert
BUT they were kept at pelham for the last years of their life
Now he did not say that? He said the first WFR33's are being scraped, Even though they were at Pelhem for there last years there still WFR33's.
Robert
there have already been Pelham WF33/36s scrapped, but these are the first Corona WF33/36s scrapped(i heard this in other posts. excuse me if im wrong)
Well....it took 40 years. The first of the REAL Redbirds I rode -- 8577, I see it's now off to Davey Jones' Locker. The ride was on the #1 from Van Cortlandt Park down to South Ferry and back in 1962.
At this rate, they'll all be gone by next year. I'm gonna miss those rusty redbirds ...
I just received notice today that the Getty Museum here in Los Angeles is mounting an exhibit on railroad photography starting March 5 through June 23. It's advertised as a "diverse and engaging selection of photographs, from Edouard Baldus' images of the new French lines...to O. Winston Link's nighttime views of the last steam-powered trains in 1950s America."
The museum itself is worth the trip. Railfans will like the tram trip from the entrance up the mountain to the museum, particularly those with a penchant for railfan windows. I know, the tram is cable powered, but still is interesting and fun.
Every visit to the Getty has been a pleasure. They have a web site: www.getty.edu.
This is the Information I have on the progress on the R142's.
WARNING: Redbird fans may want to hit the back button.
No.2 Line: The No.2 almost has a full R 142 fleet. An RCI said the No.2 only has 3 Redbirds in service as of now. All redbirds on the No.2 Line will be taken off by the time summer starts.
No.5 Line: The date for the first set to start service is 3/1 or 3/4.
No.6 Line: 7581-85 is now in service. 7591-95 are at Unionport Yard.
7596-7600 should also be here, they may be in the barn.
-Stef
Saw them beint rested on the White Plains Road middle track today. Could we be up to all 400 cars (original order) in service on the 6 real soon?
Sorry, that should be:
Saw them being tested on the White Plains Road middle track today. Could we be up to all 400 cars (original order) in service on the 6 real soon?
Yeah! Looks all cars up to 7585 are on the road. With 25 left to enter service, it would seem likely the 6 gets all 400. I can also see a few of the option order cars going to the 6 with the remainder going to the 4.
-Stef
They need more than 400 cars on the 6?
They might. How many 142A cars do they need to operate on the 4 to replace the redbirds? I figure about 90-100 Cars. Any excess could remain on the 6. I wasn't thinking of 500 cars, more like 420 cars.
It's speculation on my part. I can't say for sure as I don't make up the assignment sheets.
-Stef
I guess we'll have to wait and see. Aren't some of the option order R142A's already under construction in Yonkers?
Right. 7611-15 were confirmed to be there some weeks ago, others may have arrived since.
-Stef
I had the 7581-85 car set on Monday. 7584 gave me a door problem at 59 Street.
You know what they say.... Sh@! happens. Unfortunately that one door refused to cooperate. I take it you cut that door out?
-Stef
There are a handful of R-26/28/29s still running on the 5.
It shouldn't be for much longer. Last report I got, 16 R-26s were still active.
-Stef
I had an R 28 for my Operating car on my last trip. It was 7856 also it had a cut out door motor and as I looked under the seat there was a note which said don't touch keep it cut out don't fix.
Whoop! Better bring a snorkel to work in case you ride it again ...
Sounds like they want to run them into ruin. Then again, that car will be sunk soon enough, so why bother?
-Stef
I figured that the deuce will not be seeing red when summer rolls around. Thats good and in a way bad, because the way things look, thats where Ill be for the summer. Although, last weekend there were up to six Redbird sets on the deuce. I believe CI Peter said that they have 7 Redbirds sets in reserve and I did report anywhere from 1-4 sets were used in revenue service on any given day. Im glad I got a Redbird 3 out of 4 times on Sunday. Looks like the fun is about to end.:(:(
My metal grinder will neuter those R-142 into railfan complientce
when will they post up all the pics that u guys took of the silver 7 on to this site?
I'd like to see one of those pics as a banner on the main site!
Someone did post photos in a message, but I would have to go and try to find the message with the picutres.
#3 West End Jeff
"They"?
If you mean the person who maintains this site, his name is David Pirmann, and he's an actual person, not a "they." It's usually a good idea to display at least a bit of courtesy to actual people, especially, as in this case, when they don't owe you anything at all.
And just because you saw the pictures in a Subtalk message doesn't mean they've been given to me to use elsewhere on the site. In fact in most cases, they have NOT been given to me to use elsewhere on the site since many of the photographers run their own subway-related web sites...
-Dave
There are two people posting R62A photos on the 7:
(1) R62A photos by Clayton
(2) R62A photos by Cleanairbus.
Enjoy!
Chaohwa
IF you go to post #328027 you will see a picture of the R-62As on the IRT Corona-Flushing Line.
#3 West End Jeff
This month's Technology Review, MIT's magazine of innovation, has a superb article titled "Digital Railroad." Topics include:
The use of computers on trains
AC vs. DC motors
The future of new technology in railroading
Read the full article here.
That was a good article. Do frieghts with AC power have the same whine as AC subways?
interesting. point to underline--RR disinterest in Positive Train Control for its safety potential (they are more interested in money saving issues)
minor error the AC alternators came in in the early 70's previously the whole system was DC.
By any chance does anybody here operate the A Train? Because I want to know how long does it take to get from Far Rockaway to 207th Street.
There are many factors involved. Depending on what time of day you are traveling. Schedule info for the A train is available HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
also what equipment operates on the A train now ....??
Mostly R-44 and R-38, with an occasional R-32.
about a hour and 45. its 32 miles so its long!!! late nights when it makes all stops starting at 1030 that is even scarier cause its longer!
The A (even at night) is still the best line!! A nice summer's evening over the Flats (Jamaica Bay) with the cab windows cracked and getting fresh ocean air to cool you down makes up for all the stops!! The A Line is the Best Line!! The running time from 207 to the Rock is actually 1 hour 34 minutes (barring delays, weekdays) nights with local service about 1 hour and 50-54 minutes (give or take a few minutes due to G.O.s)
Rush hour, 1 hour 33 minutes southbound during rush hours, northbound 1 hour 32 minutes during the rush. I only work the rush.
In the late 60s, running times were posted on MTA-issued maps. IIRC the A was listed as taking 65 minutes from 42nd St. to Far Rockaway and something like 35 minutes to 207th St. In those days, it ran local in Brooklyn at all times.
I will transfer them to DVD as soon as the DVD recorders come down in
price !
To me it was worth it braving greyhound all the way across country
( amtraks southwest chief & lakeshore limited ) .......
to arrive in NYC shoot as many lines the railfan window is still there!!
the 2 5 7 videos are the best with all redbirds on them going in both
directions / night day shooting with a sony 8mm 0.4 low light lux cam !!
man i hope to get the last shot at them this summer ......
( sigh ) ...............
I'm sorry to inform you the No.2 Line will be all R 142's by May. I just got the news as of 2/21/02.
Do you have an official no-more-Redbird date? I need to get in my last ride before it's too late.
There no date set for that as of now but I say in late 2003 or early 2004.
Next week I hope to do some riding around on the old Redbirds and taking pictures along the No.2,5,4 Lines. Also looking to ride the R143 on the L Line. When I do this I will make sure I look like another railfan. Then again on the IRT I have to try to hide since I'm known.
At least nobody knows me on the L Line or on any part on B Div. so I can pass myself off as a Railfan instead of an Employee.
For once, I happen to agree with you.
--Mark
ALL HELL IS BREAKING LOOSE HERE !!!
he he he .....lol!!
When you come out with DVD versions of your videos, sign me up.
same here, just name the price (if any)
---jonathan c
panasonic sells one now for aprox $ 900.oo !!!
wow my all redbird on the # 2 tape will be priceless !!!
Hey: I can send you a bottle full of Redbird Undercar!!! It'll complete the sight/sound/smell sequence. CI Peter
They are showing a special now on how the Subway unites a city, the emergencies, simple a day in the subway.
help me out here guys. are the r62a and rebirds same width and lenght or could they be a inch or 2 difference?, also, which one goes faster? and i know this is an extremely dumb question, but what is the railfan window? is that the one on each end of the car, the doors that we use to enter a different car?
i hope this r62a is not here for a couple of days and then sent back. i hope more of them come soon.
the railfsn window is the window in the storm door. The storm door is the doors in the fron or rear of a subway car that is used to go to another car.
the railfan window is the window in the storm door.
Some provincial transit systems have a railfan window in front of the front passenger seat as well as in the storm door.
And some transit systems have nothing at all, like Singapore.
Even if they did have a railfan window, you'd probably get caned for looking out of it :) They'd probably think you're blocking a emergency exit or somethng.
thats what they shoulod do in nyc !
AFAIK, the R-62(A) and Redbird have the same dimensions.
They both go about the same speed. (It's the R-142(A) that's limited to 40.)
The railfan window is the window at the very front of the train, where railfans often tend to stand so they can view the track ahead. It's of little value if a cab's in the way, as on most R-62A's.
The R-62A is on the 7 to stay. As of Tuesday, the yard had 16 cars, and as soon as another 6 cars come in, a second train will go out.
i just saw the r62a pass by, you can see the 7 lines from my house. its very strange seeing another color train running on that line, soon it will be strange seeing a red train pass by
Do anybody know why when the Rockaway Park (S) pulls into Broad Channel going to B 116 St. That it only stays in the station for 10 Secounds after pulling in. Why 10 Secounds?
Because there is usually a Manhattan Bound A train right behind it!
anyone have a picture of the blue (S)? i've seen all the other S's.
--jonathan c
Here you go, but I'm afraid you're not going to like it:
That's right, the blue S is actually gray.
Yes, I guess they never felt like putting up the blue S on the Rockaway Pk shuttle.
thanx for the clarification pal. i guess a blue (S) will be one of those things we'll never see
--jonathan c
Offically In In MTA They Still Classafy the Line As (H)8th Avenue IND Blue. "The Map" Shows the line as (S) 8th Avenue IND Blue.
The R44 was overhauled before the blue S was initiated. I don't think the cars have a blue S sign. They probably have the old blue H. I don't understand why this letter was eliminated to begin with.
The sign has nothing to do with the car class. The roll sign is easily taken out and easily installed. It's just that for some reason, the TA has not seen fit to include a blue S, while new signs still contain the blue H and K.
BTW, the electronic side signs do contain the shuttle signs between RKP and Broad Channel for the C, H, and S lines.
The Rockaway Park S should be grey on the maps because it does not go up 8th Avenue. The MTA shouldn't change the color on the roll signs but rather change the shuttle's color on the maps.
The analogy for this would be that the Grand St. Shuttle be printed orange instead of grey on The Map since it technically goes to 6 Av at W4 St.
My point is that The Map is full of inconsistencies which people have previously brought up on this board. Bring back the H!
I agree. Bring back the H designation for the Rockaway shuttle. It simplifies everything.
That's right, the blue S is actually gray.
As well it should be, since it never goes anywhere near 8th Avenue.
I'm such a sign geek, I wonder what the R44's LCD readings are for the Rock Park Shuttle. Anyone know? Does it ever run R38's too?
:-) Andrew
I'm not sure about the sign readings, but I could guess: "S / SHUTTLE / to ROCKAWAY PARK" and "S / SHUTTLE / to BROAD CHANNEL"
No R-38's, ever. The A specials are all R-44, too. And when service over the bay is replaced with a shuttle bus and a single shuttle service runs back and forth between Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway, it, too, is R-44's. It's apparently simply impossible to find a railfan window on the Rockaway Park branch.
I have never seen those signs on the 2 occasions I have been down there. The R44s simply read SHUTTLE.
I saw them recently. They do flash "S/Shuttle" "To Rockaway Pk" or "To Broad Channel".
R38's are becoming harder to come by on the A line. And that's a good thing IMHO....LOL
The R44's have the following electronic side signs available for Rockaway Park to Broad Channel shuttle service:
H/SHUTTLE/TO ROCKAWAY PK
H/SHUTTLE/TO BROAD CHANNEL
S/SHUTTLE/TO ROCKAWAY PK
S/SHUTTLE/TO BROAD CHANNEL
S/SHUTTLE
SHUTTLE
TO ROCKAWAY PK
TO BROAD CHANNEL
S/TO FAR ROCKAWAY/VIA ROCKAWAY PK
S/TO ROCKAWAY PARK/VIA FAR ROCKAWAY
There are a few others available for odd services. Usually, the T/O's are too lazy to set the signs and simply keep them on SHUTTLE.
R38's are rarely used on the RKP shuttle, but when they are, it's only on weekends during the summer season between 9 am and 7 pm when OPTO is suspended, and C/R's are used. During these hours, full length trains are used due to heavy beach crowds.
Heh....train operators too lazy to set the side signs!! Sound familiar Mr Z Man? lol (slow.......and lazy too lol j/k)
>>>>>>>>>>(slow.......and lazy too lol j/k)
Well I do agree with you on the lazy part! But I do properly set the side signs on every trip. And I always straighten out the end sign which is a personal pet peeve of mine.
What? No "H/SHUTTLE/TO EUCLID AVE"?
What in the name of all things that run on rails?!
I smell a conspiracy...! :)
How do the shuttles turn at Broad Channel anyway? Are there switches to the north end of the station?
-J!
North of Broad Channel is another track to the East of the Northbouind Track. The S switches to that track which is long enough to go past the switches from the Northbound to the Southbound track. When the train is ready to head South, It switches back to the Northbound track and then to the SOuthbound track and enters Broad Channel on the SOuthbound track.
How do the shuttles turn at Broad Channel anyway? Are there switches to the north end of the station?
See photo
The building in the background is "SEAVIEW TOWERS" and is located b/t Wavecrest B.25 and Edgemere B36. So one wonder why the S shuttle is there instead of on the other side of the line.
N BWY
NYCT uses the blue (S) on its Service Diversion pages for that line.
Because there is usually a Far Rockaway Bound A train right behind it!
The Rockaway Park(S) came in after I got off my (A) Train to Far Rockaway and it left right away. Then anouther one came 5 Munutes before the (A) to Far Rockaway came and left right away AGAIN and no one was on that one.
What is with some of you and railfan windows. Its about time the 7 lines got new cars. The redbird may be a classic but they are old and cracky. I cant wait until the line is dominated by r-62As.
I dont really care about the railfan window. I rather ride on a comfortable train and see something new on that line then ride on a 40 year old train with a railfan window anyday.
If you've never seen something by looking out a front (back or side) window, then anything we tell you on this board will never make any difference.
I like to sit on the train sometimes and read my paper. But most times I prefer to look out the window. Sometimes there are kids who run to the front window to look. I give up my spot for them because I used to be one of them. From aboveground you can look at a whole neighborhood at a glance. From underground you see a tunnel that goes on and on into the distance and wonder where it goes.
Perhaps from the windows you won't see something new. Maybe however you'll remember the first time you rode on that train. And remember all the wonders and different changes along the route. Maybe the new trains won't have railfan windows. But while they are still available on the older subways cars, I'll be up there looking. If by chance I can show some child some of the things I've learned, I've passed on some of the legacy of riding the NYC Subway
how beautifully said!
you said it brother!!
Couldn't have said it better. This is especially true the first time I rode the lines. I would always run to the front, especially when I was younger (and i still do sometimes)
I Remember making my parents wait through all of the Redbird R30s on the C For a slope40 on the B for the low window
Tell this to London Underground or Montreal Metro riders. As far as I know, they've never had a train where you can see out the front. From the many pictures of Montreal cars, London Tube and Sub-surface stock that I've seen, all of them appear to have transverse cabs with no windows to see out the front of at all. At least we can see out the front of an R62 through the tiny cab door window. Yes, it's not as good as a Redbird, R32 or even an R40 railfan window, but it's better than nothing at all.
Well, at least one end of the Flushing line R-62As apparently will have a regular railfan window, which is 50 percent better than if the MTA has decided to redo the Corona shop to handle the R-142s and put them there in place of the `birds.
They are safer in the yards and on the plats they also give better visability.
I don't use the railfan window that much either. Maybe once a month or less. However, I rode a Redbird at the front down the Lexington express, it was awesome. Watching the sparks coming off an oncoming train is great.
u dont have a railfan window with marta !!
I can't get up to the storm doors, but I can see thru the cab and out the storm door just fine.
you dont care but many oif us do !!
too bad !
you dont care but many of us do !!
too bad !
Tell this to the folks who run the London Underground, the Sao Paulo subway and the Montreal Metro. This is what they give their riders:
Think you'll be shooting any videos of these subway systems anytime soon, Salaam?
The 1st picture shows seats facing each other, can you imagine that in New York. By the end of a few stations, those people would be ready to kill each other.
Yes, they'd never be able to get away with seats facing each other in New York. Hell, they couldn't even get away with cushioned upholstered seats in New York. The R17's used to have padded vinyl seats. then the vandals got to 'em and they were gone, replaced by plastic.
The question is, will Salaam (or anyone else) want to film the subways in London, Sao Paulo or Montreal? There's no way to see out of the front, unless in the cab or if you're Superman.
Next time I'm in Montreal I'll see if I can.
-J!
Blank walls at the ends... OH, THE INHUMANITY!!!
It's horrible, ain't it? Yet we got people here saying "no more railfan window!" Riders in London, Sao Paulo and Montreal never knew it in the first place. Here in New York, we still have something. Prove to me that a solid, blank wall is better than a small (R62) window.
>>>>Its about time the 7 lines got new cars. The redbird may
be a classic but they are old and cracky. I cant wait until the line is dominated by r-62As. <<<<
Me either....I require air conditioning in the summer, and too often, redbirds on the #7 are without AC. Bring on the R62's.
www.forgotten-ny.com
whine cry baby bitch moan about your AC !
what did they do back in the dayz of the low vs / high vs ??
whine cry baby bitch moan about your no more railfan window!
Tube riders in London don't seem to care that none of their cars have a railfan window! We don't hear them complaining about it! There's lots of London Underground fan websites, and none of them seem to complain about the trains having no railfan window.
I'm amused at the subject title: "What Is With Some Of You?" Obviously, you have no concept of what type of person posts on this board! In case you haven't noticed, this is a board that is comprised of mostly people who are interested in the workings and equpment of subways and railroads. If all you care about is a "comfortable ride" and don't care at all about things like railfan windows, WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON THIS BOARD to begin with?? Why don't you stay on the "Knitting Booties" message board, or whatever subject you ARE interested in, and leave this board to those who care about the subjects at hand!
How about a high tech solution. Have a flat screen plasma display behind the cab door showing the view from a closed circuit "cab-cam" mounted in front of the train ;-) Hey - we'll probably see this before we see the Second Ave Subway!
Who will win?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Here's the first vote, I prefer the Stainless Stell Beauties, R62's!
Red, Red, Mine.
yes !
R-62/A ALL THE WAY! Stainless steel beauties
The question has already been asked.
Here's the answer.
No need to go through it again.
It really is a shame when good railfan material is damaged by fading slides. Has anybody here had that problem? Other than keeping one's slides stored properly in a good environment (dark, reasonably dry, cool, free from nasty chemicals) is there anything else that can be done to prevent that from happening? I'm thinking down the road when I'll want to be able to show my slides without them being faded.
-Robert King
I assume that question is rhetorical, since I know you know the answer: Kodachrome.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've been doing some research...
Kodachrome is better than Ektachrome in terms of resistance to fading in storage but:
- In projection use, Kodachrome apparantly fades about three time faster than Ektachrome.
- Kodachrome has also been known to fade with age as well (the faded Kodachrome slides I saw had turned a rather nasty red, at least I think it was red).
-Robert King
I forgot to mention, part of the question was brought about by several discussions I've had with a friend of the family who's also a photography buff and works in the film (movie) industry. Her brother shot a lot of slides - Kodachrome - in Africa in the early 70s and ALL of them have faded out horribly. I was sure that she was confusing Kodachrome with Ektachrome but I finally got to see about 100 of these slides on a light table and they are indeed Kodachrome and they look terrible.
-Robert King
I have a collection of faded Kodachromes; I discarded the Ecktachromes as worthless.
I have a lot of faded railfan slides, too. I recently bought a scanner, and have been able to restore color using photo software to SOME of the faded ones: example.
How old is that slide?
It is from 1974, as is this one.
Ewwwww ... PennCentral logos - the cause of Amtrak ...
I've had the same problem. But as Anon_e_mouse said, had Iused Kodachrome, there wouldn't have been the problem.
I DID use Kodachrome on some things....when I could afford it. And those Kodachrome shots are still just as vivid in color as they were when shot 40 years ago.
Trouble was, in those days, I was 11-12 years old, and my only income was from delivering Newsday on a bicycle in Bay Shore! Couldn't afford the GOOD stuff (Kodachrome w/Kodak processing) so I'd get whatever I could afford....usually that cheap crap "Dynachrome" or whatever and then have it processed at Sears up the street from where I lived.
Got older and wiser -- and now if I DO shoot slides, there's only one film/processing of choice.
I've never heard of Kodachromes fading over many decades, unless they were perhaps exposed to excessive heat and humidity or projected often for long intervals. Also, incorrect processing could possibly lead to color stability problems, and Kodachrome processing is complex enough to leave lots of room for errors. What's more, I read some time ago that certain batches of Kodachrome film, including Kodachrome II circa 1965, had manufacturing defects that caused image problems.
That said, Kodachrome is still the gold standard for color image stability on film, despite the considerable improvements in Ektachrome (E6) and related films over the years.
I vote for R-62/R-62A's!
I love the redbirds yes, especially the mainlines, but lets be real, their time is gone. R62As on the 7 is something more incredible to see. As a matter of fact R62As remind me of Redbirds in a way anyway. Besides flushing riders will appreciate that A/C come summer!
I love the redbirds, but i will never operate one anyway so in with the R62As. They will prolly keep one for the museum not to mention if u want memory, the R32s are similar to the Redbirds, except they are not red. and the Redbird work trains i believe will remain red. i saw 8958 at jay street last week as a work train and it still looks like a mainline redbird
I saw 8958-9 and 9018-9 at East 180th Street Yard yesterday. They bracketed some kind of yellow car. Also their front side door pockets were painted in the slanted yellow/black stripe scheme while the rest of the cars were in the Redbird scheme. What kind of work train would this be?
I choose the R62A's! Comfort over those scratchy and blinky redbirds!
i love my redbirds, but when it comes to stability, i want my silverbirds. i wouldn't also mind if the 7 line could have an equal amount of red and silverbirds.
--jonathan c
Variety is always nice. That's why I like the N.
I have to say that the new 142 cars have the most uncomfortable seats in the entire fleet.
But ironically, the redbirds have the MOST comfortable.
I disagree - the R62/62A's have the most uncomfortable seats.
I agree with Allen the R-62/A are the most uncomfortable especiallt when a very large person is sitting next to you!! no room.I like the seats in the R-68's R-44 and R-46, I like the spot to rest the arm in these trains.The redbirds are comfy, the R-142's are okay, the backs of the seats are quite stiff.
I agree. No matter how hard I try, I cannot find even a remotely comfortable seating position in those cars. If I sit back, various bumps jab my bones. Slouching is the best I can do.
The R-40/R-40M seats are pretty awful, too, but they're a little bit better.
The Redbird/R-32/R-38/R-42 seats are just wonderful.
Am I the only one who thinks the R142's seats are VERY comfortable? I wish all subways had seats like theirs.
What was the "average size" they modeled the seat for? I'm 6 ft and weigh 165 lbs.
I like them too, i dont see why people think they're bad
I don't find them the best seats I have ridden (bring back the rattan seats from the R1/9's and Lo-Vs) but they are sufficient.
I have bno idea as to the size of the posteriors they were disgned for. I am 5'10" and will admit to 198 pounds
I have a mild tendonitis problem in the back of my legs, The 142 seats are so strangely "deep" in the back that the front edge cuts right into the wrong part of my thigh.
I admit that it is a personal problem, but none of the other cars' seats do this.
The redbirds were (are) the most comfortable of them all, but the R40s are pretty good too.
It's just these R142s that are AWFUL.
progress...
I don't know how you would rate the seats on any transit stytem as "most comfortable". Maybe "least uncomfortable".
FWIW - the seats on BART are better than those on any other rapid transit system or city bus line I've ridden. But, then again, BART is somewhat of a suburban rail line as well as rapid transit, so maybe we should be comparing its seats to Metro North or Metra.
-- Ed Sachs
Fordham University Press is pleased to announce that Brian J. Cudahy’s 1975 book, Rails Under the Mighty Hudson, has been re-published in a new and expanded edition. The book tells the story of the construction of the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad—today’s PATH System—as well as the trans-Hudson tunnels of the Pennsylvania Railroad. This new edition ... available in both paper- and hard-bound versions ... includes a chapter that covers developments since 1975, including the tragic events of September 11, 2001.
Beyond the re-publication of this important work, Fordham will be bringing out a completely new book by Dr. Cudahy later this year. Entitled How We Got to Coney Island, it is a complete history of local transportation in Brooklyn and Kings County, from the Brooklyn City Railroad to the Iron Steamboat Company, from excursion railways to the BMT, from horse-drawn streetcars to contemporary subway trains.
I'm glad I just sent out my incone taxes. I'll need a big refund to get all those books. And I'll definately read them!
Can I get an autographed copy to go along with my autographed "Under the Sidewalks..."? :-)
The last time Brian came out with a book (The Malbone Street Wreck) all anyone could find was the paperback edition.
I got the hard cover edition at the MTA gift shop at Grand Central.
Excellent.
I will hit there on the weekend.
Brian J. Cudahy’s 1975 book, Rails Under the Mighty Hudson, has been re-published in a new and expanded edition.
Available at the Grand Central Transit Museum shop ????
Also from Barnes & Noble - I just ordered my copy online at 20% off list and, since I was ordering another book as well, free shipping.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ok, there are major plans going on with that station, but I say, to shut down those 2 stations (yeah it already sounds crazy) Then Destroy those 2 stations, remove the old elevated lines. That should take roughly 6 months to do if work is done at a good pace. Then rebuilding the elevated Structure on both lines, which should take around 6 to 12 months. The Benifit is that the job is done right, there is no running around service plans. Then there is a lot more simplification instead of working with the current structure. The connections to the Yard, and b/t the J/Z and L lines can be made simplier. Handicapp Features can be added. Yeah it sounds crazy, but overall the benifit in the end is alot greater. The station will be more modern, but with old architecture in place. It can shine better then before.
Do you want to make the (A), & (C) Pitkin/Fulton Subway The Next "East Side Line"?! Plus If The El's Go Down They Would Not Come Back Due To NIMBY!!
Okay, so I'm guessing the single R33s on the #7 line are very close to collecting their pension. Probably more so than the rest of the R36's, and probably won't make it till the summer.
Too bad, I wanted to get at least one more ride in them in the heat of July or August, with the fans going full blast and the storm doors open, where I could stand in the front doorway and allow the warm breeze to wash over me and thru my hair ...
But I guess that won't be the case. Oh well, all hail the "new" R62A!
Anybody else think this situation is a little kinky? I mean, the "wave of the future" being a 15 year old train replacing a 40 year old train, and suddenly, people are looking at the R62A as if they've never seen one before!
Yes I know, they're "new" because they're somewhere where they previously weren't ... but I wonder how many "common" (i.e. non-subway buffs) #7 line riders actually think the trains are brand new.
I would guess that the R33 singles will go at the same time the R36s do, but then who knows.
:-) Andrew
>>Yes I know, they're "new" because they're somewhere where they previously weren't ... but I wonder how many "common" (i.e. non-subway buffs) #7 line riders actually think the trains are brand new. <<
I wonder how many will really care.
If you want the No. 7 line to get brand new equipment, I guess we'll need to have another World's Fair.
The No. 7 (Flushing in those days) got new "Worlds Fair" low-Vs for the 1939-40 Fair, and the R36WF and R33 singles for the 1964-65 Fair.
I guess they also got new cars right after WW II - the R12 and R14 cars (later supplemented by R15s), but that was more a matter of gap fillers and platform lengths than anything else.
-- Ed Sachs
I'm sure all of you know how NYC is pushing for the Olympics here for 2012. Ignoring all of the possible problems and criticisms for a minute, ideas are being thrown to have it at Flushing-Meadows Park. Do you think the MTA will be nice enough to buy new cars for the 7 then? They did it for the World's fair.
Doubtful. The transit plan for the Olympics focuses on commuter rail and ferries. There's a plan to run though trains from LIRR Jamaica and intermediate stops through NYPenn to the Meadowlands. (how they deal w/ incompatible power systems is a question.) They also want to have lots and lots of ferries.
It seems from the way it is going that each line will only serve one type of car.
the 1/9 will be R-62A's
3/4 will all be R-62's
the 2/5/6 will be R-142/R-142(A)'s
and the 7 (possibly 11) will consist of R-62A's
So if this is done will the task of fixing cars at their respective yards be easier, yes. We diversity dissappear, yes. There might be an R-142 here and there on those lines but 99% of the cars should be what is above.
So what do subwaybuff's have to say on the issue of car-line unification?
Such is progress!!
not a redbird in sight.....~sigh~
--jonathan c
and (don't let Salaam Allah see this) not a railfan window to be had.
It's progress for the MTA and the city. For railfans it's boring as hell though...
Not enough 62s for the 3 and 4
Running less different kinds of equipment will reduce training and maintainance costs. This is why southwest airlines only flies one type of aircraft. It's about time we'll see some consistancy on the subways, anything to reduce costs is good in my book...even though riding will become "boring".
The 3 is supposed to get the option order of the 142s so the 62s can be sent to Corona.
For my March trip: What lines actually run trains with railfan windows and what are the chances of actually riding on one without too long of a wait? Guesses are welcomed. Thanks
7 line, N line, C Line, E Line, Q (Diamond) Line, J Line, M Line, 5 Line, A line.
All trains on C, J, M, diamond-Q (usually), Z.
Most trains on 5, 7, E, L, N.
Some trains on 1, 3, 4, A.
A few trains on 2, F, R.
No trains (generally) on 6, B, D, G, circle-Q, shuttles, W.
(The train we met on in July was probably the very last B train with a railfan window.)
Last time I was in NYC there were pleanty of Redbirds on the 2. Have they all been replaced already?
No they are a very few redbirds on the 2 this line is heavy with R-142's, the R-33's on the 2 are on their final voyage on the number 5 line, replacing the R-26,28,29, there are a handful of the last mentioned redbirds on the 5 also.
Not all, but most of them have. Redbirds are a rare sight on the 2, and they will probably be gone from the 2 by summer.
No trains (generally) on 6,
I hate that. When I was in college I used to use the 6 from Union Square to 23 or 28 everyday. I would usually wait at the end of the platform at Union Square, because it was the least busy there, so I would always wind up in the first car. Almost every day I would look out the front window for the two stops. (there was no place to sit anyway). I would never get tired of it, and seeing 18th St go by. Of course that was about 10 years ago, but I have such good memories of it. I can't believe I can't even do that on the 6 anymore.........
you make my point on the r-142 however i do know a motorman who i will not post his name on this board .
i may get a chance with him on the # 6 on his shift & shoot a video with him.............ON A CRUMMY r-junker !! ( NO RAILFAN WINDOW VIEW )
I did shoot the # 4 6 video shot back in 2000......
NOT THE 2 EITHER, only substitutes for breakdowns(I SAW A REDBIRD RECENTLY)
BMT REDBIRD:)
man am i glad i shot the # 2 when it was all redbird back in 2000 !!
yup, get the south ferry loop on the 5 while you can!!!!!
FRONT WINDOWS RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
this summer july or so by sure i will B there
IRT-
1- some-62s
2- occasional Redbird
3- some R62s
4- Occasional redbird
5- Mostly Redbird
6- NO WINDOW
7- Mostly redbirds
Salaamallah, I wanted to shoot each line from the front about 10 years ago. I did the M (about 12 years ago and the stations still were covered with graffiti-strange to see now), the J, the B, the L, and the 5. That's as far as I got. I regret never doing it, and now it's impossible on some lines, not to mention I don't have the time now. I should have done it back then.
right you can still shoot the few that remnain
quick !! dont wait !
"Most trains on 5"
????? When does one see a 5 without a window nowdays? Shouldn't that be "all"
All the electric lines on the LIRR, at least until the M-7's start running. The best line for watching up front is the Main Line, especially between Jamaica and Hicksville. The rear door in the last car is fun too. Not as much fun as the open platform on the end of the diesel trains before they started having locomotives on both ends. Reminded me of the train during the ending credits on "That Girl".
A- Slightly less than half are R38s, which are quite railfan friendly
B- 68s-AVOID
C- ALL 32s/38s
D- 68s-AVOID
E- Mostly 32s
F- 1/9 chance of an R32 ITS WORTH WHILE (BEST RAILFAN LINE)
G- 46s-AVOID
J/M/L/Z- 68-70 STLs (DA SLOPES/STRAIGHTS)
N- MIX- Take the 60th tube(Fastest place in the city)
R/W/Q/V- unless you bump into a 32 avoid it
< Q >- Slopes, another good line
I took the R143 train today... waited about 15 mins past when the scheduled time was... as I now live in atlanta, I just dont understand why the new MARTA trains dont look this good. I took about 50 pics and will post them when I get back to atlanta tomm... the hotel connection sux :)
Anywhoo, I wish the motorman would have let me sit in the cab but i guess since 9/11 that wont be happening..
I sure do love the subway :)
I took the R143 train today... waited about 15 mins past when the scheduled time was...
The R143 was 24 minutes behind schedule when I rode it today. There was a problem on the L that put the whole line off schedule.
There was a problem on the L that put the whole line off schedule.
I was going to blame Mark W. for incorrect information, but I see it wasn't his fault!
I also rode it today. I waited at 8th Ave., expecting it to be leaving at 12:24 PM, but it didn't actually leave until 12:48. I took some pictures but haven't uploaded them yet.
I waited at 8th Ave., expecting it to be leaving at 12:24 PM, but it didn't actually leave until 12:48.
That's the train that I rode. I got on at 1st Ave. I thought I had missed it westbound and was following it, so I got off at 1st Ave and waited for it to come back eastbound. It came along westbound a couple trains after mine, which had made only express stops west of Broadway Junction because of the problems (the people on the crowded local platforms were pissed when the train nearly stopped and then kept going). I rode it all the way to Canarsie, then back to 105th St and got off to photograph it in daylight. I hope to get my pictures uploaded tomorrow.
I operated it on the 5:27 out of 8th Ave. I did a round trip with it earlier in the afternoon but for the life of me I can't remember the intervals we made. I saw a railfan at East 105 taking pics and then at 8th ave. He has a SEPTA museum store bag.....Was it any of you? For those interested, The 143 WILL NOT BE RUNNING THIS WEEKEND.
See ya'll Monday! I'm off to Shoreline tomorrow!
-Mark W.
I saw a railfan at East 105 taking pics and then at 8th ave. He has a SEPTA museum store bag.....Was it any of you?
Guilty!
I've uploaded one shot from Canarsie and one from 105th Street. I also uploaded a shot of an F train leaving Smith/9th, and an R36 entering 40th Street on the 7. The rest can wait.
When I snapped the R36, the T/O said "You takin pikshiz uh me?...or da train?" He seemed satisfied when I said the train.
So that was you? I saw you again at 8th Ave. I was the mean looking conductor fighting with the on board computer.....lol
-Mark W.
Ooooooooo ... feel like dishing about what Mr. Touchyfeely screen did to ya?
Does the Computer program software on the R143 have a 40 Sec. delay feature like the R 142's??
The Computer can be a pain sometimes but you get use to it. Then you start to master it when you start getting turned mid trip and you have to reprogram the computer to the direction you going and then activate current station for the Computer to make currect announcements.
Don't know about that, but when I ran into Mark on Thursday evening and the crew was going to layup the 143s, the computer kept malfunctioning. I believe a light kept indicationg that the passenger alarm had been activiated and couldn't be shut off. Mark was trying to troubleshoot the problem for a bit. A minor glitch.
BMTman
You get those problems on the R142. Sometimes when you get into the Station and I open up the doors the Computer said Car 7267 R6 not closing. My T/O asked me if I wanted him to call it in. I said no wait until I close the doors first. Then when I closed the doors indication came in and the computer indicated no trouble. It happened at every stop.
Yes, I saw you. I would have described you as earnest looking, rather than mean looking.
Bob V.
What? No foamers on Friday's trip, Mark?
BMTman
What? No foamers on Friday's trip, Mark?
Doug,
You must have missed Mark's other message: I saw a railfan at East 105 taking pics and then at 8th ave. He has a SEPTA museum store bag.
In addition to the photos that I uploaded last night, I now have uploaded the remainder of my shots from Friday's travels, including six more R143 photos.
Friday's photographs
I haven't ridden the R143, but I think the R142 interior is a lot better than the new MARTA interiors. On the outside, however, the new MARTA cars are the best I've ever seen.
I haven't ridden the R143, but I think the R142 interior is a lot better than the new MARTA interiors.
R143 interior
Which lines generally have T/O's and C/R's with higher seniority and which lines are assigned to T/O's and C/R's have lower seniority? I've generally seen rookie C/R's on the N (especially lately)and more senior C/R's on the 3 and some on the 1.
Thanks in advance,
B63 Mike
im not sure about any others, but if ur a A Division Motorman or Conductor, dont expect to see the number 7 anytime soon. thats A UNTOUCHABLE! its the only A division route in queens so u know everyone want it
The No.7 Line is NOT UNTOUCHABLE! Its a very mixed line you have T/O's and C/R's who have 20 Years and T/O's and C/R's with alittle over a year working reg. runs on that line.
I hate the No.7 Line so I aviod it. If I wanted to I could of had 3 days on the No.7 Line.
In the BMT/IND for T/O's
The highest seniority line: V
The lowest seniority line: G on weekends
The above isn't my opinion, it's how the jobs have been picked by Train Operators within this pick, and next pick effective May 12. The V has been the first line to fill out, and the G on Saturdays/Sundays have been avoided like the plague. If only 15 jobs are available for weekends towards the end of the picking process, 14 of those 15 will involve the G which is OPTO, and 95% of the jobs are back-breaking killers.
(The lowest seniority line: G on weekends)
Too bad I wasn't at the TA when they were designing the Bergen Street interlocking job. I would have recommended that as part of the plan they scrap the interlocking between 4th Avenue and Smith-9th, and build a new one in the tunnel past 4th Avenue.
The G could have terminated on the center tracks at 7th Avenue, where the T/Os would be able to go to the bathroom, instead or being marooned in the middle of the ROW at 4th Avenue. Since it would be sitting in the station, the F would not be delayed while they got everyone off. 4th Avenue, and the BMT transfer, would be served by more trains.
If I'm still around then they redo the signals on the rest of the line, I'll bring this up.
I was just a daily 4th Av rider who sometimes wanted to take the G at 9th/4th. I've **never** understood why they turned back the G at Smith/9th. 7th Av was so obvious, but apparently, not so obvious to the TA. I didn't occur to me then that the t/o needed a potty break, but clearly, the long suffering guy does.
Well if they need a good conductor to do the G and rid the line of the OPTO crap, gimme a call!! I think it makes no sense to have a line of that length be OPTO, then to add insult to the injury have the OPTO train operators have to do, what I call, the Super-Duper Long relays to Church Avenue. I don't see why they have to do that relay, why not have the G go in service to Church.........with conductors!! Not OPTO!!
A T/O I worked with last pick wanted to go back to the B Div so bad he got stuck with the G Line on Saturday nights. The rest of the time he is on the R,V Lines.
Sometimes, you have to take the scraps in order to get what you want. I would have taken 1 day on the G personally rather than work in the IRT, but that's only because the closest IRT line to me is the 7, and that's a 30 minute bus ride.
>G on weekends
It was mentioned recently at recent union event. With the GO you are in service to Church and no longer get to drop back one. Plus you do your own relay with a double.
3 two hour trips and six relays plus OPTO is a bit much.
What is the age you must be to be a T/O?
Which division is better?
On the IRT for C/R'S
Highest Seniority Line: Its between the No.3+5 Lines. Most C/R's have weekends off and the No.3 does maybe 5 short Express trips and the No.5 Line has 1 1/2 or 2 Trips. The No.5 crews bust on me because they don't know how I was able to pick a 2 tripper on the No.5 with 14 Mouths as a C/R.
Lowest Seniority Line: Very easy the award goes to the No.1 Line. C/R's and T/O's on Probation pick steady jobs on that line. Its a killer 2 trips to New Lots Local.
Whatever Bill From Maspeth picks!
Does anyone on the board have this ERA published booklet?
I have the covers and more than twenty loose pages assembled in a strange order. The previous owner removed the staple that held the booklet together. I would like to put it back in order, and determine if I am missing some pages.
Let's just rename September 11th as "Destroy part of NYC Day" ...
AI don't get what that has to do with the Jamaica el? (even though that is a true statement)
If you've been on this board long enugh, you'll learn that the whole Jamaica el demolition debacle is a pet peeve of mine.
I've just started to notice this lately as a train approaches Grand Central station, there's a pipe that sprays water on the tracks and after the train leaves the station you see more water being sprayed from a pipe in between the two rails, what is this for?
Reduces noise as the train goes around the curve. It used to be really loud before they installed the sprinkles and is pretty quiet now.
Shawn.
Union Square on the Lex was one of the worst with noise. Haven't been there for a while though. Is it still pretty loud, or does the water help.
I was acutally thinking of Grand Central on the Lex. I used to take the train from there everday and there was a huge difference after they installed the sprinklers.
Shawn.
Union Square on the Lex was one of the worst with noise. Haven't been there for a while though. Is it still pretty loud, or does the water help.
It's still DAMN loud, at least whenever I ride it.
But I thought it was oil, not water ....
I think they use water, because oil is a fire hazzard.
That is I believe to lower the screaching the train makes as it goes around curves
I've just started to notice this lately as a train approaches Grand Central station, there's a pipe that sprays water on the tracks and after the train leaves the station you see more water being sprayed from a pipe in between the two rails, what is this for? This is on the downtown Lexington Avenue Express tracks by the way.
Not only quiets the flange BUT keeps the place clean. Pressurised grease attracted dirt and remains on the wheels for a long time...one should not get greasy doing wheel gauging. CI Peter
The April 2002 issue of Railfan & Railroad has an interesting picture of two Redbirds supposedly at the bottom of the ocean. A former editor is credited with putting on diving gear to dive and take the picture.
The picture, on pg 12, would not fool any of you subway fans. It shows a car with its doors in place and with no numberboards.The background also looks like the bottom of an aquarium. The magazine owns up to the April Fool in a small article on pg 64. The manufacturer of what are probably HO or N scale models is not revealed.
They are the Images Replicas models (brass), I believe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well going Manhattan bound this morning I saw a 7 train of R62's heading east in the opposite direction at GCT after looking for it.
Well this afternoon's trip to Flushing was much luckier. I decided to wait a few express trains at Times Square. Well at 4:45pm she pulls in. What a beautiful sight. A nice bright end sign, and silver! I got all excited about finally getting to ride it. I even said to the T/O "we got one of the new trains" and everybody who got on had a smile. As for myself I was trying to keep the foam in my mouth.
The head end #1705 had a full width cab so I just sat down. It sure felt weird having door chimes, and the luxury of lights that don't flicker.
The side roll signs had a diamond 7 and the word "express". The conductor was announcing in a very cheerful way "this is the 7 express, 7 express to main street". And boy what a pleasure to ride. It was smooth and those R62's are faster than the redbirds anyday. We silver streaked the express track, and boy was it sweet.
I tell you this is a long time coming. The Redbirds were great for their time but it's 2002 and the sight of stainless steel on the 7 made for a mile wide smile.
About the only thing I'll miss about the redbirds is the window on both ends of the train, but that is just about it.
Also there was some guys (possibly subtalkers, but I didn't recognize them) that got on the train with a camera and got off at Woodside and took a few pics.
It's possible to look through that little window implemented into the full-width cabs on R62(A)'s, as long as it's not "tarred out" or the conductor's bag is over it.
Not much of a railfan window, but better than nothing.
I know it must be weird considering that the Redbirds are different from the R62's.
Any word on when the 7 line is 100% R62?
Stopped by "Ground Zero" again today, this time more streets have opened giving a complete view of the pit where the WTC once stood.
Church street was open. Still very dusty in this area. The tall black rectangular building to the east of the site, it was a hotel has it's entrance all boarded up, the building still looks kinda battered.
I stood there trying to figure out that this was where the World Trade Center was. To me it's totally unrecognizable.
The only smell that was in the area actually smelled like a subway, I guess that is the air from deep within the pit from PATH.
Alot of tourists and picture takers. I know I shouldn't let it bother me but it's become a tourist attraction and people don't realize the death that happened there. I have no need to take pictures, I've seen enough from the media.
At the SE corner of the site is a road leading down, reminds me of digging out a mine. They are still hauling debris away, the cops momentarily stop traffic so the carts can cross the street.
Also lots of lowlife vendors selling pictures of the WTC in flames. I felt like letting them have it, but lowlifes like that aren't worth my time.
The exits on the south end of the E as well as the west side of the 4/5 take you right up to "ground zero".
Do they still have those platforms? If so, I would like to go see sometime soon.
The platform(s) are still there. You have to buy a ticket to get on them.
"You have to buy a ticket to get on them."
Unless the policy has changed, the ticket itself is free. It's just a matter of getting to the south street seaport in time before all the tickets are gone. -Nick
The tickets ARE free.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's crazy how the site started having a Disney type feel to it. When I was there, all these people were waiting on line to get on the platform. I understand how people want to go there, but I can't believe how it's become a tourist attraction. And the photos they are selling! It's sick, like selling souvenirs!
What disturbs me the most are the hats, shirts, etc. that say "Ground Zero" on them. I saw a family walking around Times Square the other outfitted in them. It just made me so angry. I mean I wouldn't wear a hat that said, "your family was killed by a drunk driver on the NJ Turnpike."
T shirts are sicj with "Ground Zero" on it. It makes it look like a tourist attraction, like a family wearing Mickey Mouse & Disney shirts
There's no accounting for some people's lack of class or even their lack of smarts. However, I save my greatest invective for those greedy bums who make those shirts just so they can grab a few bucks off the misery of those who lost love ones. I would like to take a cat-o-nine tail to them.
I would like to take a cat-o-nine tail to them.
Hey, HEY! That's a DIFFERENT bulletin board, OK?
Don't the cars have brake cords in them??
Why use the intercom to the T/O, pull the dang thing. Ohh maybe they don't have them and/or they are like the new fangle TA ones that don't work after 600 ft.
Every post that holds up the El structure has a number on it. What is it for?
To locate the support if there is a problem with the support? not sure.
Their called "bent numbers" used for locating stuff. Like finding an address. Gets its name from the "frame" formed by a pair of columns and a cross girder.
Bob D.
This August, I am going to spend a few days in Napoli, and naturally, I plan to railfan the local metro and commuter trains. Is there some areas that I should exercise caution or avoid? Also, which rail lines provide the most scenic views of Napoli?
Enjoy it! I had only a few hours there 25 years ago, and my memories are like yesterday. Maybe I would not recognize the city today. Just bring your New York smarts with you.... Watch your step. For some reason, I found slippery vegetable huskings often on cobblestones. Before you go, learn as much Italian as you can. Behave friendly. I took a train south from Rome, transferred at a suburban station to an electric MU to Pozzuoli. At the transfer point, I looked into the railway police office and was surprised to see a crucifix over the official's desk. I had moved from the more "Red" north to the demo-christian south. The graffiti were pro-DC, not PCI. A bus from Pozzuoli was jammed with standees. Tickets were sold by a fellow shoving his way through the crowd. I returned from Cuma to Napoli on a bayside route, with severely vandalized cars and a garbage smell generated by the "air mail" tossed onto the tracks and caught up in the brake shoes. If I recall correctly, the suburban train used a wide-bore tunnel under the city, with low platform stations. Main line locomotive-hauled trains mixed with subway-style service. Suggestion: Post a question on www.worldrailfans.org where there is a forum. Enjoy the trip!
I personally think they should keep it as "World Trade Center"
But if they change it.. How about Cortlandt Street - World Financial Center
It should stay the same. The area is called the world trade center. Remember, there were 7 world trade center buildings, along with the financial plaza. Several buildings did fall, but the World Trade Center still exisits; when the area is rebuilt, it will still be to function as a trade center, in addition to a memorial.
Therefore, I don't think that the area should be renamed.
Also, to give some perspective, a friend of mine for 23 years was a probationary firefighter and died there. Riding the A line through WTC was a very strange experience, however, the station name should remain.
I think thats insane.rename it Chambers St cause if its not changed then it'll just bring bad memories or bad luck.I dont think people will wanna deal with any hardships.
I think the station should stay as just Chambers Street, and remove the "WTC" from the small pillar signage, and remove "World Trade Center" from the main stop sign. Not to mention I think, personally, it is very very bad taste to have the R-32s on the E saying "World Trade Center". Why not have the signs say Chambers Street instead? (Chambers Street is in the rollsign!!) I think to have the train displaying a sign for a place that, unfortunately, is no longer there, is in real bad taste. They should also make codes for the R-46 Luminator signs that says "E 8AV LOCAL CHAMBERS STREET VIA 53RD ST, and "E 8TH AV LOCAL QUEENS EXPRESS JAMAICA CENTER VIA 53RD ST" and remove the WTC codes.
In my oppinion it should be left as is for the simple reason that it has been called that for 25 years, and in the future it will also be called WTC
It can't say Chambers, because Chambers is the station before World Trade Center, and the E train don't end there. I don't think it's in bad taste, because well......that is what the station is, and hopefully will be again one day.
CHambers St on the A/C and The World Trade Center are basically the same station. Before 1970, it was called "Chambers St, Hudson Terminal".
Whatever they build (and they will indeed build BIG, hopefully bigger, taller, stronger, greater, better -- and more arrogantly -- than before) it will still be called the WTC.
Ideally, all the subway work they do will give us a free transfer that connects Park Place, Chambers, and the two Cortlandt Street stations. Calling it by one name makes sense, and WTC is as good as any.
Besides, 'World Trade Center' is now a hallowed name.
Whatever they build ... it will still be called the WTC.
Ummmmmmm, I'm not so sure. I suspect the WTC name will be forevermore associated with 9/11 and the memorial there. But whatever is built *WON'T* be the WTC, and so I don't feel the name should survive.
Ideally, all the subway work they do will give us a free transfer ... Calling it by one name makes sense, and WTC is as good as any.
Well, maybe "WTC Memorial" although I still have an irrational fondness for "Hudson Terminal".
'World Trade Center' is now a hallowed name.
True, and for that reason, I think attaching it to a new collection of buildings for a different function is wrong. I want "WTC" to remind us of 9/11 forever.
And to an earlier post, the whole IDEA of a "world trade center" is a Sixties relic. World trade is so throughly integrated into every facet of business that the idea of a complex for it is ridiculous. It'd be like designating a particular building in Manhattan for the cellphone industry.
For Instance:
The 4 Line has those unused express tracks up in the Bx.
How's about running Rush Hour Express Services on them?
The J/Z can run express during rush hours between Marcy Ave-Bway East New York with the use of those express tracks
The F can run full time express services between Kew Gardens,
Union Turnpike and 179th Street.
Well you get the point....Protest to the MTA about the lack of great idea's!
All 3 of your suggestions have been discussed at length before, and have been rejected for many reasons.
It's first day of trading:
129.99 +56.90
Could it be.......... It happened in Japan!
It was on the uptown platform at the 23rd Street 1 and 2 station. There was a large poster advertising an upcoming UPN show called "As Is," showing a pretty young woman with braided hair. Next to her mouth, someone wrote "I have a yearning in my pancreas."
Pancreas???
Sounds like they where trying to write "Pancakes"!
The pancreas is part of the human digestive system, it was not a misspelling.
There was a large poster advertising an upcoming UPN show called "As Is."
As If.
Maybe they were diabetic and wanted their pancreas to produce more natural insulin?
"I have a yearning in my pancreas."
[chuckle] Perhaps it was modified by a later graffitist? Sometimes people edit obscene grafitti to make it less obscene ... "Buckle Me!" was one of my favorites, from "F&#$ Me!"
Don't worry, it'll be removed when that show (As If) is cancelled, about 3 weeks after it debuts.
I was looking at Yahoo News and discovered a Slideshow that had some pics of PATH cars being removed from WTC. URL is below puls I listed the image numbers that contain PATH trains.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?p=news&g=events/ts/091101nydccrash&i=index&e=1&tmpl=sl&ns=0&l=1&m=&c=
Images that contain PATH cars.
1
2
7
14
38
40
44
I am currently making a stripmap style Bahn layout of the LIRR, which would have almost all trains stopping at thier own stops(17 routes for babylon alone)
Does anyone have any suggestions (Due to lack of information Hunterspoint/Long island city are not included)
What kind of suggestions are you looking for.....I'd like to help, but that was a rather vague question.
To The List:
Based on the Yahoo News photos, it would seem the PATH "Ghost Train" will finally be making its return trip to New Jersey by flatbed trucks in the very near future.
Anyone care to keep an eye out?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Can they be salvaged? Rail cars are not cheap.
Can they be salvaged? Rail cars are not cheap.
If they are salvaged (and I agree with you, Larry), I feel deeply that every one of the salvaged cars should have an identifying plaque on it alluding to its unique place in history. And that they shouldn't be scrapped at the end of their useful life, but parceled out to museums (and possibly the WTC memorial if appropriate). I imagine there would be great demand for them.
And since SubTalkers undoubtedly know the car numbers, they shouldn't be too hard to identify, eh?
There's a full story in today's Post describing the rescue of one of the PATH cars complete with a picture.
The ones that were not panacked should be salvaged. After all, there was really no damage done to them aside from dust, vibration and whatnot.
To The List:
Based on the very latest information, it looks like there were 76 Redbirds of this variety still in passenger service on the 5 as of 2/20/02.
They were:
16 R-26 7770/71, 7780/81, 7790/91, 7818/19, 7842/43, 7846/47, 7848/49, 7856/57.
14 R-28 7862/63, 7888/89, 7906/07, 7926/27, 7938/39, 7948/49, 7958/59.
46 R-29 8690/91, 8694/95, 8698/99, 8708-8711, 8716-8719, 8722/23, 8726/27, 8734/35, 8738-8741, 8744-8747, 8752-8757, 8780-8787, 8790/91, 8798/99.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Wow, just 46 of them left, huh? They're going pretty fast.
And when is the IRM going to get their hands on two of them ???
Terror atop the Empire State Building, as a gunman opens fire on the observation deck, killing one and injuring six others. The triggerman, Ali Abu Kamal, a Palestinian from Gaza, then turns the gun on himself. The tragic shooting sparks heightened security measures at the landmark building.
As bad as that was, and as frightening, luckily only one person was killed, but sadly it seems so small as compared to what would happen on NY's other tall buildings.
See http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/23/nyregion/23TRAI.html.
I like Gene Russianoff's description of the contemplated diversion of the Cranberry St tunnels to pure LIRR use as "grand theft subway".
He also refers to Hoyt-Schermerhorn station as "defunct" and the home of the Transit Museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes it's pretty outrageous. You are unwilling to make real investments, so you transfer resources from a large number of lower income people to a small number of better off people.
It would make more sense to extend the LIRR down its orignial route to the waterfront, then bring people across on a ferry timed to meet the trains. But Brookfield Properties has buildings in the center, not on the water.
"It would make more sense to extend the LIRR down its orignial route to the waterfront, then bring people across on a ferry timed to meet the trains. But Brookfield Properties has buildings in the center, not on the water."
Actually, Brookfiled own the WFC, so that's possibly a very good idea. Also, the article does confuse Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the defunct Court St transit museum station. Maybe they could use the unused tracks (the outer tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn) to get them much of the way to the waterfront.
I spent much of the afternoon at @ 2 Broadway yesterday. From my vantagepoint on the 20th Floor - facing the Hudson river, I was amazed at the number and frequency of water taxies and ferries in operation. While a direct rail route to the financial district would be desirable, it seems that if ferries and water taxis are acceptable, the LIRR might just as well extend the platforms and upgrade the tracks at the Long Island City terminal. NY Waterways has a facility aproximately 1 block away. The mechanism is in place. Why not use it.
Agreed, and while that's happening, run shuttle trains to and from Jamaica to meet with the ferries at LIC. During peak they could experiment with an engine, coach and a cab car. Keeping those two cars OPEN, they could see if that would suffice. During off-peak hours they could do an engine and a cab car and see if that would do. Though this idea could be a failure due to the shortage (I only say shortage since I've learned it on SubTalk) of locomotives and coaches, it's worth a shot if they have the equipment.
Agreed, and while that's happening, run shuttle trains to and from Jamaica to meet with the ferries at LIC.
I suspect the issue here is mode-shifting. Suburban commuters seem to accept intra-mode changes (change trains midway, whether cross-platform or LIRR-subway/NJT-PATH) much more readily than they do mode shifts (train to ferry).
To make this work properly, you'd have to build a REALLY well thought-through combo train terminus/ferry terminal on the Long Island waterfront. Like a modern-day Hoboken complex, probably with platforms at the same level as ferry entrances. Dumping train riders onto a parking lot and having them walk into a little tent for ferries will NOT work. The entire transfer probably needs to be indoors.
That said, the arguments on 100K subway riders v. 15K LIRR riders are valid.
I wonder ... what about using only the tunnels, but separate routings to them in LI (Atlantic extension) AND on the Manhattan side? I'd think that bellmouthing the Cranberry tunnel on the Manhattan side would be a LOT less pricey than building a separate tunnel altogether. It's the TUNNEL that is the constraint, yeah?
If there is any talk of sharing tunnels, I think the Montague St tunnel would be much preferable. It really only needs about 14 tph of subway traffic (8 Rs and 6 Ms) to handle the load from Dekalb.
The Cranberry tunnels need more, unless you do some really ugly things like switching the C into the Rutgers tunnels, thus causing switching delays at Jay St. And of course the idea of switching all Fulton Line trffic through the Rutgers tunnels is really outrageous.
(If there is any talk of sharing tunnels, I think the Montague St tunnel would be much preferable. It really only needs about 14
tph of subway traffic (8 Rs and 6 Ms) to handle the load from Dekalb.
The Cranberry tunnels need more, unless you do some really ugly things like switching the C into the Rutgers tunnels, thus
causing switching delays at Jay St. And of course the idea of switching all Fulton Line trffic through the Rutgers tunnels is really
outrageous.)
Agreed. The only thing more outrageous would be taking the Lex line away from the subway to bring commuter down from GCT (one of the options in the Lower Manhattan Access Study). If you want to bring the LIRR in, you need another tunnel.
The only thing more outrageous would be taking the Lex line away from the subway to bring commuter down from GCT (one of the options in the Lower Manhattan Access Study).
Now THAT'S ballsy! But would LIRR trains fit into IRT tunnels? (For that matter, do they fit BMT/IND tunnels?)
Maybe, the right plan is to make this the pork -o-rama of the new century. connect NJ to Lower Man to Bklyn, and beyond--new four track tunnels setup. two pass two for freight. Through route NJT and LIRR and connect the freight tracks to the New York Connecting RR to Hell Gate for service to New Enhland.
220-50 billion, enough graft for two term limits worth of mayors, what's not to like?
(While a direct rail route to the financial district would be desirable, it seems that if ferries and water taxis are acceptable, the LIRR might just as well extend the platforms and upgrade the tracks at the Long Island City terminal. NY Waterways has a facility aproximately 1 block away.)
Too much time. For it to work, the platforms and tracks would have to be extended to the doorstep of the ferry terminal, with an out of the weather transfer possible.
I was asked to come up with a proposal for ferries once. It involved extending the Times Square Shuttle to the water, then at grade under the FDR to a series of ferry terminals. That would provide much faster and more reliable access to the bulk of the jobs than buses do. That would do for Midtown.
For Lower Manhattan, an extension to the Brooklyn waterfront would be better. Ferries can only move so fast, and you already have a could of waits to transfer modes, so you want a short trip directly across the river.
For it to work, the platforms and tracks would have to be extended to the doorstep of the ferry terminal, with an out of the weather transfer possible.
Cool! A real live city planner-type person makes the same point I just did. Wow.
The story sounds like a fantasy world proposal by people with enough political clout to get their idea into the Times in the first place, but without a clue as to how that idea would actually affect things in the real world -- except of course, that it would benefit them.
With the tenuious nature of the Manhattan Bridge, there are no subway tunnels from Brooklyn to lower Manhattan that have spare capacity to be used for LIRR service. Even if you ran the C train between Jay Street and West Fourth through the Rutgers tunnel to clear space through the Cranberry tunnel, the MTA would still have to deal with the FRA regulation conflicts any such plan would involve. If you can't even run the PATH and IRT together without FRA exemptions for the former, how are you going to deal with handling the LIRR and the IND on the same tracks?
While the plan does solve the problem -- albeit stupidly -- of getting the LIRR trains across the jumble of subway tracks north and west of the Atlantic Ave. terminal, the only logical, but costly, option is still a stand-along tunnel that would head north towards Metro Tech to avoid all the subway lines, and then turn west towards the lower Manhattan area. Extending the LIRR tracks back down to the waterfront at LIC and running shuttle ferries to the downtown area is a far more rational plan.
Never going to happen....................
How far apart are the Far Rockaway NYCTA and LIRR stations? Is it an easy transfer for a weekend excursion?
It is an 8 minute walk down Redfern Av.
From the subway station, make a left on Mott Av one block to Redfern Av, make a right, walk 3 blocks to Nameoke St, make a right, the LIRR station will be 1/2 block down on the left.
Be careful though, watch out for stray dogs that roam the area, and be alert when making the walk at night.
What is the make/model of the train pictured within the following copy & paste, and what year were these cars (carriages) first made?
http://www.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/mainline/br-eastcroydon01.jpg
These are one of my all time favorite trains to ride.
All I can tell you is that they are one of those former Southern RR "Slam Door" 750vDC MU trains. Lexcie can tell you the exact make and model. "Slam Door" units rock. Too bad they don't make them any more.
When first reading reports of what happened, I thought firing the T/O involved was going too far too soon (although suspension would be without question). Well, it turns out I now agree with the move to fire the T/O and here is why:
In Wake of Accident, Confusion at Metro
By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 23, 2002; Page B02
Metro controllers allowed the malfunctioning train that dragged a woman along a subway platform at Gallery Place to continue its run, serving nine additional stations before it reached the end of line and was taken out of service.
Li Yu, 58, was dragged by the train during the evening rush hour Jan. 9, and the moments after the incident were a swirl of confusion at Metro's operations control center.
Metro Transit Police Chief Barry McDevitt, a daily Green Line rider, was inside the crowded car about 6:20 p.m. when the doors closed on Yu's left arm and began dragging her. McDevitt was on vacation this week and could not be reached by phone for comment, but according to his notes about the incident, two passengers in the car started shouting, "Stop the train, someone's caught."
McDevitt pushed the car intercom, identified himself to the operator and twice told him to stop the train because a passenger was being dragged, according to his notes. Yu was able to free herself yards before the train entered the tunnel, but she suffered injuries to her legs, arm, head and backside.
The operator, Jackie Herring, stopped the train in the tunnel between the Gallery Place-China Town and Archives-Navy Memorial stations, and through the intercom, he asked McDevitt if the person caught on the train was still there, according to McDevitt's notes, which are on file with Metro police. When McDevitt said no, Herring started moving the train again.
Meanwhile, train controllers at Metro headquarters were alerted to a problem involving a train at Gallery Place. They tried to radio Herring several times, but he did not respond, records show. When the train reached Archives-Navy Memorial, controllers stopped it remotely. At that point, Herring contacted the operations control center to ask why his train had been stopped, according to records.
Train controllers asked Herring whether he noticed anything unusual at Gallery Place, and he said no, according to Metro records.
Controllers thought another train might have been involved in the incident, and they allowed Herring to continue to Branch Avenue.
McDevitt remained in the car with the faulty doors, car 5032, to make sure they didn't hurt another passenger, Metro spokesman Ray Feldmann said.
When the train reached Branch Avenue, Herring was questioned by a supervisor, and he was suspended. His train was taken out of service. Drug and alcohol tests taken by Herring were negative, Metro sources said.
Lem Proctor, Metro's chief operating officer for rail, said the train should have been taken out of service at Archives-Navy Memorial. "In retrospect, we should have done that," he said. "But the operator stated he was unaware of anything happening, and we didn't know it was that train."
Metro has since fired Herring, a Metro employee for 23 years and a train operator for 10 years. Herring could not be located for comment yesterday.
Engineers examining car 5032 found that a door circuit had been improperly soldered at the factory in Spain and that the circuit was indicating that the doors were closed when they were open. Metro trains are designed not to move when car doors are open.
The faulty circuit affected three of the six doors on car 5032, which began service Sept. 7. Proctor said he was not aware of any other accidents associated with that car. After the January incident, the car was taken out of service while Metro engineers tested its components, discovered the faulty door circuit and fixed it.
It is unclear how the faulty component escaped notice by inspectors employed by the car's manufacturer, CAF Inc., of Spain, and Metro. The component should have been checked when it was installed in the rail car in Spain and again when it was accepted by Metro. Metro is supposed to perform a test in which an object is placed between the two leaves of a car door to see whether the car's computer registers that a door is open.
Fred Goodine, Metro's chief safety officer, is investigating whether that test was performed properly and whether there were lapses in the inspection process.
Metro has spent $340 million for 192 rail cars from CAF. The cars were supposed to be delivered by June but are a year behind schedule. The delays are largely attributable to a range of equipment and software problems.
it will be interesting to see who signed off on testing the doors in question. maybe both Metro and CAF will need some new employees.
Unlike the Times' article, the one in todays Daily News actually bothered to include Peter Kalikow's comment that, "It's a great idea until you start putting pencil to paper and it starts to lose its luster."
To me, that indicates that Brookfield Properties is trying some sort of public relations action through the press in an attempt to gain support for the plan, after it was shot down by MTA officials in private. Too bad the Times apparently doesn't have Peter Kalikow's phone number, since the News story makes it sound like far more of a non-starter, or at best, a trial baloon by the developer.
it will be interesting to see who signed off on testing the doors in question. maybe both Metro and CAF will need some new employees.
Hi, i know that the Lexington Ave Line has a dense passenger load during the peak hrs WITHIN Manhattan. Does anyone have any numbers for the outer branches of the lines (ie. Woodlawn Jerome, WP Road, Dyre, Pelham, New Lots, Flatbush). Tony
The Jerome Ave line I would say has the most. I don't think the riders on the No.4 Line sleep. I doesn't matter what time of day or night you get heavy riding at Moshulu,Fordham, Burnside, Mt Eden, 167 St, 161 St, and 149 GC.
The Eastern Parkway part is also heavy but the No.2 Flatbush line has the most in Brooklyn.
What is the max speed the Acela does when its going from NYC to D.C.?
Probably 125mph like the Metroliner if I'm not mistaken. In the NJ area, though, top speed is 100mph because of the yellow, speed restriction indicators between the catenary wires, but I heard from this board that AMTRAK can somehow bypass those and go faster.
No -- sections of the PRR main are passed at 135mph. The limiting factor is the variable-tension catenary wires which are more than 70 years old. The signalling is good for 150mph. Cab signals do not give aspects past 90mph however. Jersey Mike am I right?
Which segment is the PRR main?
PRR main runs from the SHELL interlocking near New Rochelle, NY to a junction just out side Washington Union Station.
AEM7