If you have a 2002 Amtrak Travel Planner, turn to page 58-59.
In the large caption that shows the inside of a dining car, look at the guy in the green shirt, right behind the waiter.
THAT'S BILL MURRAY!!! GOTTA BE!
And the woman in the lower right hand corner--only her face is visible--she looks a lot like Halle Berry, but I don't think it's her.
But the other guy, I SWEAR it's Bill Murray!
Is the 2002 Planner the new one? When did they come out with it?
I guess toward the end of last year - I got mine about a week ago at the Amtrak office in Newark Penn Station. Funnily enough, I always seem to get the "last one" ...
Today we examine "cost effective" measures.
I was originally planning to make this one piece, but being that it is rather lengthy, we’re going to make it a multi-part work.
Like all other facets of business and industry, railroads are always looking to cut costs and get far more out of far less. This is what is commonly referred to as improving productivity. Those people who lose their jobs over these decisions call such measures looting and raiding or raping and pillaging. I have also heard it called other names that I probably shouldn’t use here. It seems that every time wholesale cost effective measures come down the pipe, somebody loses their job. Those that stay on get to do two or three times the work they performed previously, usually for the same money. And they often wonder if they will be the part of the next chapter of cost effectiveness.
With the elimination of human beings in some positions, studies are made to determine how much money whacking a job or two, maybe three or more will save. They don’t calculate all the tangibles though. At no time do they measure the abstract. That would include such items as to what is beyond the obvious initial up front savings; what are the hidden, long term costs that arise from such decisions? In many cases, the short-term gain results in long term pain. And oftentimes productivity is actually reduced.
Some cost-effective decisions don’t involve shedding the company of skilled and important employees, but not many. Some of these cost-effective measures involve eliminating unnecessary expenses such as no longer spending money to provide the help with small conveniences like coffee, meals on the road, needed and required items such as office supplies and the like. It may involve turning off the lights at night, the heat in the winter or air conditioning in the summer.
We’re going to look at both types of cost-effective measures and their long-term effects. We’ll get to see just how much money was saved and how much more was spent to save all that dough. In other words, a complete and thorough lesson in stumbling over $100 bills to pick up pennies.
We’ll start this lesson in economics with a variety of money saving measures instituted at the MoPac. We step back in time to 1982 during the throws of the great recession (or depression for many) of the early Reagan years. Out on the CHTT railroad (a MoPac subsidiary) in Chicago Heights, most of the jobs went to work at the CHTT Roundhouse. It was a small facility with a small office attached and crews went on and off duty there.
Somehow, somewhere, it was decided that the company could save oodles of money if they didn’t have to keep all those blasted mercury vapor lights that illuminated the parking lot and building entrance lit whenever it got dark. So the directive was made, the light timers, photocells or whatever it was that magically made all those lights illuminate at dusk were deactivated.
About two or three nights later while crossing the rut filled and junk strewn parking lot, a Conductor tripped over a piece of scrap track material. He twisted and bent at a weird angle before falling. He sustained a serious personal injury and required a hospital stay and surgery. This tumble lead to a considerable period of recovery, rehab and recuperation. The financial settlement made between him and the company clearly eradicated any trace of financial savings the company hoped to achieve. And needless to say, almost immediately thereafter, the lights were once again illuminated at dusk.
That same winter, it was decided to furlough virtually, every possible Maintenance of Way employee there was to save money. While normally when the construction season ended many of them were cut off anyway, this year they dug deeper and cut further. The result was nobody to spread salt and sand on the ice and snow that accumulated all over. Did I mention there was also no sand or salt to be found to spread either?
We had six Trainmen within about a one-week period slip and fall winding up with broken bones and missing considerable work. They all made hefty financial settlements, as the company was clearly negligent in providing safe working conditions. In one case, two people about eight hours apart slipped and fell on the exact same spot that was nothing but glare ice.
In the case of the second episode, I was the Engineer working the job. The Conductor got on the radio and reported the unsafe condition in front of the Nine-Yard shanty where both he and the field man were required to perform some of their duties. His words were something to the effect of "We need some salt or sand here before somebody falls and gets hurt. It is all ice here with no safe place to walk."
Needless to say, nothing was done about this, as there was nobody to bring out the salt or sand. A couple of hours later, the field man slipped and fell seriously injuring his knee. To make a bad situation worse, instead of calling the paramedics, somebody decided to save another buck and a Trainmaster took this guy to the hospital in the company Bronco instead. I was later told by the injured Trainman the doctor told him even more damage was done to his knee when placing him into the Bronco and transporting him as it was not properly immobilized.
Can you say big six-figure settlement?
Cabooses were eliminated in the 80’s.I am not about to try to present evidence that they need to be brought back because there isn’t the need for them on most trains with a Conductor and Engineer only. However, there are situations that do require them and collective bargaining agreements mandate them under certain circumstances. Most of these circumstances involve long back-up movements.
Contrary to what some officials think in this country, it is not safe to hang on the side of a car for several miles while shoving the train, especially at low speeds. Many rail cars are really not equipped for hanging on for these distances. You are required to position yourself in an unnatural position and do so while attempting to maintain radio contact with the Engineer. And then there are some Engineers whose train handling techniques are not the best and they may "crack the whip" from time to time. This means the Trainman riding the car has to be ever more mindful of this and maintain an even tighter grip to avoid injury. Of course this means that he or she may wind up getting smacked up against the car itself under a rapid change in slack as opposed to getting knocked off the side.
While I strive to give these people the best ride possible, sometimes things happen that are out of my control. Being that I grew up in the era of cabooses, I still remember my techniques for handling trains with them so as not to kill anybody back there. However, things have a way of going haywire.
One Conductor I worked with on one railroad was told point blank by a company official that it is safe to hang on the side of a car over nuemrous road crossings and for a distance of well over two miles at 10 mph or less. The Conductor invited this guy to join him for the ride to prove this fact. The official balked claiming this would be a violation of the Trainman’s contract. Hmm, since when did they become so concerned about violating the collective bargaining agreements?
Oftentimes, a company official may instruct a crewmember to ride a shove like this in direct violation of the collective bargaining agreement. Not only is this less than optimum safety, it can be expensive for the company. The crewmember will make a penalty claim for such and whenever it is resolved, get a chunk of money for following such instructions. What was saved here? We are not allowed to refuse to comply with any instructions given by a company official even when it violates our collective bargaining agreements. To do so would have us insubordinate and subject to dismissal.
On the CNIC, we have a coal train we interchange to the Norfolk Southern at Kankakee. The connection is backwards, so we have to run around the train first, and then pull it around onto the NS and vice versa when bringing it back. This is a very time consuming method and oftentimes winds up taking several hours to affect as there are other trains in the equation. In some situations, we sit for an extended period of time owing to either traffic on our line or on the NS. On more than one occasion, either the CNIC Chicago South and NS (and Conrail prior to July 1999) Kankakee Dispatcher (or both) has told us they could handle us right away if we shove the train over, but if we have to run around it first, it may take awhile. In this case, we get to sit for awhile outside of town.
If there were a caboose on the train, the Conductor would have a safe platform on which to ride and maintain a secure hold. He would also have an emergency brake valve at his command; a caboose whistle to sound at the road crossings and the potential for a brightly displayed headlight. Some cabooses were equipped with a spotlight that acted as a headlight for back up moves at night. MoPac and BN are two railroads that come to mind with this handy feature. Lots of illumination and safety features at hand.
The caboose doesn’t even have to be fancy. All they need is a good platform with the emergency valve and whistle. There could easily be an axle generator to provide power for the spotlight. Or, a rechargeable lantern with a bright beam could be used. The need for a heater, toilet, running water and all the other amenities found on cabooses of the past could be eliminated. The end of train telemetry could be readily mounted on the drawbar or knuckle just like any other car.
CSX delivers to the CNIC pretty much on a daily basis at Wildwood in Chicago. They pull up the hill through the connection from their main line after shoving the train out of Barr Yard and east of the connection switch. When they pull their train from us, they shove back down the hill through the connection and east on one of the main tracks to clear this connection before heading west back to Barr. They used to use a caboose for the back up move, but no longer. Now they use a locomotive. Normally it is a GP15 or MP15 model, but a locomotive just the same.
There could be an argument in favor of the locomotive that it has a whistle, bell, headlight, brake valve, seats and heat. It actually might make the shoving movements safer than a caboose. Or it might be somebody decided to rid them of another caboose. CSX has numerous cabooses they rebuilt for use in local and transfer service and used one of them on this job (Y122) for years. These cabooses had heat, an emergency valve, a whistle and the potential for a light. Now though, it is the locomotive. In effect, they have replaced a $50,000 caboose with a $225,000 locomotive that is consuming fuel at the rate of about 3 gallons per hour while portraying a caboose.
As cabooses have been eliminated, a new series of problems developed. Sometimes switches have to be restored to normal after crossing over from one track to another. On a long train this means a long walk to the head end. In some instances, it also means blocking a road crossing or two for an extended period of time.
Another situation is having to inspect a train for defects when stopped by a detector, having to make repairs to a car enroute, set it out when not able to remedy the problem or cutting a crossing when stopped for an extended period of time. The crossing thing can really be a problem. After putting the train back together, the Conductor or Brakeman then has to walk all the way back up to the engines. Depending upon the situation, this may take a considerable amount of time. Oftentimes, the Dispatcher will call a taxi to assist the Conductor or Brakeman. Cabooses were eliminated to rid the carriers of expense and taxis were hired to expedite operations. Other times, the Conductor or Brakeman is simply left to do the walk. This may result in fines for blocking crossings.
Another favorite is closing towers that control railroad crossings at grade and/or, connections to and from other railroads. Somewhere, it was decided that these towers and their Operators were redundant and unnecessary. Why have a guy in the field when there is a Dispatcher at some remote and far away location that can easily handle the workings at this location with the click of a mouse or touch of a keyboard. Sounds good on paper.
We eliminate four positions, possibly five, rid ourselves of some old building that needs maintenance, heating, cooling, lighting, running water and must meet fire and safety codes. It also reduces the tax burden on the property and eliminates potential liability. And true enough, all these costs are eliminated. A one time cost of installing new equipment here to replace the human intervention and voila, instant cost effectiveness.
And now for the drawbacks, you have now placed still more work on an already overburdened Train Dispatcher. As if they don’t already have a full pallet, you now give them even more to do. Contrary to what studies might show, there are not huge leaps in productivity when Dispatchers take over control of locations once handled by Operators at towers. Ask any Dispatcher who now handles numerous interlockings and control points that were once handled by Operators on sight.
The Dispatcher now must contend with more chores. He will have to either talk directly to train crews at the location involved, talk to the Dispatcher from the other railroad or railroads associated with this sight or, in some cases, both trains and Dispatchers. If there are equipment problems or malfunctions the Dispatcher now has to track down a Signal Maintainer or call the help desk at some other location to contact somebody. Add numerous now closed towers to the dispatching duties and they become even busier than ever. The busier he or she gets, the less time they have to keep track of everything that is going on within the friendly confines of their territory. This makes it harder for the train crews to get a hold of them, which oftentimes results in unnecessary delays to the trains. It also reduces on-time performance that we constantly hear so much about.
And being they are generally nowhere near the action, the Dispatchers really cannot tell what is going on without keeping an eye on their trusty Super VGA monitors. If this is a location where there are numerous switching moves being made, the train crew working at this location can easily get lost in the shuffle. This again reduces productivity as the train crew winds up sitting and waiting for signals. I have witness this routinely on numerous railroads.
Another factor is the Dispatchers not knowing all the ramifications of what may be going on. When there was an Operator there, the Op may very well have let the lite engine or short train cross traffic move shoot across before the hot shot arrives. He knows he has time, can see the move directly and knows the instant they are clear. All the technology in the world cannot achieve this gain in productivity. The Dispatcher on the other hand is busy, may not quickly see such a move is clear and still line up the hot shot with no delay. Instead he holds the lite engine or short train move. Doesn’t want to take any chance at all of delaying the hot shot. As a result, there are unneeded and unnecessary delays, Lost productivity that while not measuring on any computer model, will more often than not show up on the paychecks of the Engine and Train crews who encounter numerous delays like this throughout the course of their trips. I have always said, ten little five and ten minute delays will far outweigh one big one.
The overtime paid and productivity time lost is never weighed against the straight time earnings normally paid out. You cannot readily see this. Computers cannot project it. And being that it is not seen or projected, it doesn’t count and therefor is not part of the equation and is never factored in.
As towers are closed one of two things happen; you either step back in time by downgrading or move ahead and modernize the works. In many cases, it is the former rather than the latter that prevails. On the Indiana Harbor Belt, the cost-effective decision was made to close Stewart Avenue Tower at the far east end of Blue Island Yard. Stewart controlled all the switches at the east end of the yard, the switches for the connections to and from the MoPac and IC, and also the access to and from the Blue Island Running Track which passes on the very north side of the yard itself.
Blue Island Yard is a very busy place with numerous yard moves, interchange moves, through trains passing through as well as trains entering and departing the yard. While I was there, it was not uncommon to see 20-30 through moves, well over a hundred yard moves, dozens of inbound and outbound trains and numerous moves to and from the MoPac and IC in a 24-hour period. With all the involved switches controlled electrically from Stewart Avenue, things normally proceeded pretty well.
At some point when traffic levels were down, it was decided to eliminate Stewart Avenue Tower, remove the power from all the switches and convert them to hand operation. Somewhere along the way, it was also decided to remove a portion of Five Lead, thus eliminating a track used to enter and depart the yard. The signal to allow trains to enter the Blue Island Running Track was retained and control given to the Dispatcher. But the signal now merely conveyed authority to proceed; it was no longer tied into the route the switches were lined. You received a restricting indication on the signal. The switch just past the signal could and oftentimes was lined against the move you desired.
With this change in the mode of operation, all trains entering and departing Blue Island Yard and trains bypassing the terminal itself now had to proceed at restricted speed prepared to stop at all the switches and line any and all of them as required by hand. As a result, productivity was decreased. All trains now had to be ready to stop and usually had to, as the switches were almost never lined for your route.
While this may not appear like too big a deal, here are a few of the ramifications of their cost effectiveness. Trains on short time often went dead on the hours of service before making it into the yard as they were now stopping to line switches and any time left was consumed performing these chores. There are two major road crossings involved that are now getting blocked for longer periods of time as the Engineers have to operate at slower speeds and then stop for the Conductor or Brakeman to get off and handle all the switches. There is also Dolton Junction involved. This is where the IHB crosses the joint UP/CSX former Chicago & Western Indiana line. The former CWI is a very busy railroad and the trains on this route are hammered by the now slower moving (and often stopped) trains on the IHB.
Then couple in the removal a key portion of Five Lead. The delays really compounded themselves. A couple of years ago, Five Lead was put back in between School Street and Indiana Avenue after an absence of about seven or eight years. I wonder how much this cost?
The IC closed Belt Tower near Hawthorne Yard in Cicero back in the late 80’s. This is where the Belt Railway of Chicago crosses what is now the CNIC Freeport East Subdivision. The Operator there was an IC employee, but control of the plant was given to the Belt Dispatcher. All of the power switches west of the crossing were converted to hand operation.
I cannot begin to count the number of times I have sat at this crossing waiting for a signal. The Belt Dispatcher holds us for several moves on his railroad first. In more than one instance, well after all trains were clear, we still didn’t have a signal. A call to our Dispatcher reveals the Belt Dispatcher "forgot" about us. How novel, he forgot. I wonder what would happen if we forgot to call after sitting and waiting for say an hour with no cross traffic evident?
And of course, now all trains have to approach all the switches west of the crossing prepared to stop if the block signal here indicates restricted proceed. And yet again, there is a major road crossing involved when we have to stop and line the switches for our route. In some instances, we have to get talked by the stop signal at the Belt Crossing. More often than not, when this occurs, there are switches lined against our planned route. This means two stops and a crossing blocked even longer.
We’ll look at some other interesting cost effectiveness next time.
And so it goes,
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, © 2002.
When is this coming out in paperback?
"Productivity" is output accomplished with the same amount of input, or less input for the same amount of output. Reducing wages or benefits is not productivity. Increasing work hours is not productivity. Doing less work with less workers is not productivity.
If you think actual productivity is a bad idea, I suggest spending 50 percent of your income on food, as most people did 100 years ago.
The word is the No.5 Line will start running R 142's maybe starting as early as next month. I was talking with a supervisor on the No.5 Line who is in the know.
Also tonight at E 180 Yard cars 6766-6770/6826-6830 where programed as a No.5 Train to Bowling Green. They still are testing those 2 units together.
Now they just have to train the No.5 crews to run the R142.
>>Also tonight at E 180 Yard cars 6766-6770/6826-6830 where programed as a No.5 Train to Bowling Green<<
I thought #6800 and up would be the cars assigned to the #5.
Bill "Newkirk"
Saw a test R142 on the "5" yesterday afternoon @ Brooklyn Bridge.
Should i expect to see the R-142s on the No. 5 Line by the first or second week in Mrach?
#3 West End Jeff
There is a very good chance you will see that.
Which R-142 cars will be assigned to the No. 5 line.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm not 100% sure but I think it will be starting with the 6800's or maybe some late 6700's series. I wondering about that set at E 180 6766-6770 with 6826-6830 they still have No.5 signs.
Just stay tuned I'm sure something will come up very soon.
I shouldn't be surprised if I should see a trainset with cars numbered 6766-6770 and 6826-6830.
#3 West End Jeff
The end signs on the R142/As, are they LCD? They look so clear and crisp that they look like plastic with a beam of red light coming through.
>>The end signs on the R142/As, are they LCD? They look so clear and crisp that they look like plastic with a beam of red light coming through<<
Nope, rather L.E.D. (light emitting dioides).
Bill "Newkirk"
LEDs........as are the internal bulkhead signs on the 142 and 142 Alphas. The external SIDE signs are flip-daught LCD's though.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hope to see R142's on the 5 soon.
I HOPE I HOPE I HOPE I HOPE I NEED IT!!!!!!! CI Peter
That is wonderful news!!!!! I cross the tracks February 11th to 180th coming ever closer to Train Dude Land. Guess who can train the service crews??? CI Peter
So you will be right where I'm at. I always past Train dudes land looking down from the No.4 Line. Concouse YD is starting to look like 207 St YD.
Uh oh ... NOW you did it ... you might as well scratch car maintainer off your career options list NOW, buddy. One does not compare Dude's train garage to 207th and LIVE. :)
No...I'll still be at 239th unless the whole shebang moves back to 180th. I'll just be hopping over some tracks to the Rooskie side with their #5s....they're good people to work with. Starting and staying here has meant the fastest exposure to 'new tech,' unlike the mix at other maintainance facilities. CI Peter
Amtrak plans to lay off 700 workers and cut costs elsewhere to trim what it says is a $200 million shortfall this year, two sources knowledgeable about the moves said.
The national passenger railroad, facing a possible restructuring by Congress, planned an announcement Friday.
The sources said Thursday that Amtrak also was broaching the idea of cuts in long-distance trains if Congress does not help plug its deficit. That prospect will likely get the attention of lawmakers, many of whom would be loath to accept any reduction in service to their states.
Amtrak is under growing pressure to improve its finances. The congressionally appointed Amtrak Reform Council will recommend next week that the government break up Amtrak and open passenger rail to competition.
Amtrak officials declined comment. An Amtrak statement said President George Warrington would announce "new business actions in response to political and financial risks."
Amtrak has used more than $25 billion in federal subsidies since its inception in 1971. Congress five years ago gave Amtrak until December 2002 to end its reliance on annual operating subsidies.
Amtrak has broadened its ventures to try to increase revenue and was hopeful the introduction of the nation's first high-speed train -- Acela Express -- would give it the boost it needed. Systemwide ridership has increased every year since 1996, to 23.5 million passengers in 2001.
But last week the Transportation Department's inspector general reported that Amtrak lost $1.1 billion in 2001, the most in its 30-year history, and is no closer to operational self-sufficiency than it was in 1998.
Last summer, Amtrak had to mortgage parts of New York's Penn Station -- its most valuable asset -- for $300 million to keep trains running through the end of the fiscal year.
This time, Amtrak plans to trim costs by laying off 700 people, including 300 managers, the sources said. Amtrak also plans to scale back the maintenance on train cars.
Currently, when a train car is brought in for a specific reason like brake work, Amtrak performs comprehensive repairs, right down to torn upholstery. In the future, Amtrak will fix the immediate problem only.
Amtrak leaders have long said the federal government needs to invest more in tracks, rail yards, stations and other assets. The sources said Amtrak reported it has a $5 billion backlog of needed improvements that have not been made through the years because of a shortage of capital funding.
The railway will ask for $1 billion in the fiscal year that begins in October, on top of the $200 million it wants immediately to cover the shortfall in the current fiscal year, the sources said.
Amtrak announced last summer that it would offer early retirement and voluntary separation incentives to its 2,900 managers as part of a cost-cutting effort. It is not known has many took the offer.
At the time, Warrington said Amtrak would spend four to six months seeking ways "to eliminate overlapping operations, tighten cost controls and improve revenue opportunities."
The start of a downhill spiral, IMO. If cars are fixed only for immediate problems and continue to operate with torn upholstery, are dirty, light bulbs burned out, etc., with the fares they're charging Amtrak will lose customers. Once someone stops riding the trains because they're fed up with Amtrak, it will be very difficult to get them back on board.
Never know. If they do that on the NEC lines, they will be gone, the NEC is by far their best source of income.
(Amtrak also plans to scale back the maintenance on train cars.
Currently, when a train car is brought in for a specific reason like brake work, Amtrak performs comprehensive repairs, right down to torn upholstery. In the future, Amtrak will fix the immediate problem only.)
They aren't even doing scheduled maintenace to prevent failures now, and they are cutting back from that? I wonder what their MDBF is!
That and financial shenanigans like borrowing against Penn Station! Liquidate AMTRAK NOW, before it destroys the NE Corridor!
What do you think "liquidate" means ? Liquidate Amtrak and there is no NEC.
>>> This time, Amtrak plans to trim costs by laying off 700 people, including 300 managers, <<<
The remaining managers with at least half a brain will be sending out their resumes to get off the sinking ship. The best of them will get jobs elsewhere, contributing to the death spiral of Amtrak.
Tom
Are the Canal Street platforms on the 4/5/6, N/R, Q//W and the J/M/Z now been renovated with the Chinese theme, or is the J/M/Z platform still with the same tile pattern from the line's opening?
Decorated with a Chinese theme.
?
Only the N/R and Q/W platforms have the Chinese themed tilework, no?
I saw it on the Q/W platform. The J/M platforms had the old tile work. I didn't get to see the 6 or the R/N platforms.
and the Bridge connektor, da.
Stuart, RLine86Man and FakeRussianTransmissionMan
Yesterday, coming home, the train was late. They decided to skip stops over the Sea Beach segment of the line again. As usual, they stopped at 8th Av, New Utrecht, and Kings Highway. I decided to get off at Kings Highway and take one stop back on the NB. Well, train that I got off, didn't continue too far after Kings Highway. It went past the switches, switched ends, and came back NB. At that time, it took about 8 minutes or so, there was an R40 in Kings Highway station on the SB tracks. It must've been a very nice view from the R40's railfan window.
I was severely delayed last weekend on the N at New Utrecht Av due to a broken rail. Sat there for over 30 minutes. When we got going, we took the battery run (express run) of a lifetime.
I was supposed to make all local stops, and instead made:
New Utrecht-59 St-36 St-Pacific St-Canal St via Bridge-14 St-34 St................
and was still 11 minutes late.
The bridge? Express? Wow, I wish I could have been on that ride. It sounded like a wild excursion to me.
Ah, the good old days.
Used to love it when there was a GO and the N ran express from Kings Highway to 59th - on the express tracks, and then it's usual express run to 57th Street. What a great ride from an R32 front window.
Bring back the EE with the R16's......................
Express tracks should always be used on Sea Beach. Just add three stations to the express through a rehab.
Not if they are going to be used by another line. Sea Beach express tracks should be used for the Sea Beach train and the Sea Beach only.
Well Fred, what is your idea of how the unutilized express tracks on Sea Beach should be properly used?
I don't think they'll be resurrecting the Coney Island Express anytime soon. That's what the Sea Beach express tracks were built for.
Steve: Don't tell Fred but between Kings Highway and 8 Avenue it is no longer the Sea Beach express tracks,rather the sea beach express track. The good news is that there is once again boat service from the Brooklyn Army Terminal to Manhattan like there was in the old days when Fred was young.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's right. I get the feeling they may just leave the severed track in place for the same reason the tracks in the Essex St. trolley terminal are still there. They're not in anyone's way.
When it ran express it must have been as fast as the old Sea Beach express run. I think that the run from Midtown Manhattan to Coney Island could be done in about 40 minutes when the train ran on the express tracks on both legs of the run.
#3 West End Jeff
Wow, that's an amazing run... what stops did it make after 34th? Any stops in Queens?
After 34th it probably stopped at 42nd Street Times Square. I wouldn't be sure whether or not the train would have stopped at 49th St., but it would have certainly stopped at 57th St. In Queens the train probably would have made all of the local stops.
#3 West End Jeff
It would have been more interesting if in Queens, it went on hte express track.
I would agree with you on that point. I don't think it would save much time but the express run on the Astoria Line might be interesting.
#3 West End Jeff
Given that it was a weekend, the express track in Astoria was probably blocked by laid up trains.
They no longer lay up trains on that structure.
The #7, which parallels the N from Queens Plaza, then juts in different directions, runs as both an express and local. I suppose the N could do the same. However, as much as I would like the N to run as an express, I feel that since there are only seven stops or so on the Astoria Line it could run as a local without me fulminating over it. It is in Manhattan and Brooklyn where I get my dander up. There it should be an express.
That's awesome! sort of like the karmic opposite of all those times my W was congested and they sent us down on the long trip through the tunnel and along the 4th avenue local tracks...
When they ran express in June, I forget when we started running express but we only stopped at Kings.
Thats one advantage of having the NB crew start SB at Kinngs Highway!
On one of my trips last week, I left Met 5 minutes late due to a b/o train across the platform (busted picture window). Go to FP and some idiot in the last car for no apparent reason put her foot in between 2 door panels, despite the fact the c/r fully re-opened and closed the doors several times. Lost another 5 minutes, so already on my followers time. I requested and received a skip. I was told to stop at Forest-Wycoff-Bway/Myrtle-Marcy. Regular to 36/4th. Then express on the local track stopping ant Ninth-62nd-Bay Pkwy. We made up 6 minutes of the lost time.
Hey Bill, how do you feel about possibly operating an R-143 when the tail end of the order cars make it over to the (M)?
Rumor has it with a little finagaling and a wire coat hanger, you can pick up HBO on the console screen ! Maybe getting Transit Transit on the screen seems more likely !
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm sure that screen will even pick up Starz ... after Harry loaded his "over 1500 images" into the 143 and it STILL didn't crash, I was ready to pronounce it "fit for duty." :)
The rumors of OPTO shuttle service for the winter pick 2002/2003 may chase me off the M line, then I may be elsewhere next pick anyway. One r/t to Ninth and 2 r/t's to Bay Pkwy so I can make a bit of o/t is too much cab time. I'd have less cab time doing 2 on the F! I also hear too many complaints of the poorly placed master controller into the window sill area. I've heard too many complaints of t/o's having to flex their hands and fingers practically at every stop. Operate that thing over the WillyB, your hand/finger circulation may be cut off. I am very concerned about this issue for myself and my brother and sister t/o's. I think the master controller on the R142 is on the console itself.
Yes, the 143 controller is over to the side. There is a sorta "arm rest" behind it made of metal (gray colored) ... Here's a shot of it here although I've got some closer shots of it myself. And yes, I've commented myself on how I wouldn't want to run it either. I've played with it personally during the test run on Canarsie and sure didn't like it. Only seeming downside of the 143's too ... it's a NICE toy otherwise ...
Why don't they put the controller in the middle where it belongs. Besides which it seems like it is going to be awlward for some T/Os to operate the train with the side mounted controller.
#3 West End jeff
Seems kinda late to do it now ... dunno if the pictures really show what it's like SEATED in operating mode, but the "panel" doesn't have a "shelf" where you'd be able to mount it as designed. You have your winged monitor stand and then it drops straight down with an electronics cabinet under the monitors. No "shelf" or "table" on which to mount the controller. Looks like it's pretty much frozen in the design now.
I'd have to GUESS that somewhere along the line, at least one TSS with former motor experience sat in the mockup and had some thoughts. But yes, it's unwieldy and while I'd worry about carpal tunnel from the awkward position, the thing that has me MORE concerned is barreling into a "fast station" and needing to take a serious bite of air only to find my hand folded back on itself suddenly putting her in the hole (dumping) ... it's the braking and the awkward position that would give me a bigger dose of the willies running one than holding the bat handle in motion.
It sounds like the T/Os are going to have their hands full when they have to operate the R-143s in order to get used to them. I'm sure that some of them will wind up getting carpal tunnel syndrome from what you are describing to me.
#3 West End Jeff
I didn't get enough "handle time" on the 143 to have a feel for what long term operation will be like. I must admit the handle has a nice smooth gentle feel to it ... but I consider it very awkward. Bear in mind I didn't think much of the "big slide pot" either on the consoles of the bingbongs. At least they HAD a console you could put a sammich down on. The 143's don't. But I chalk up a lot of my own opinion to my own perceptions - anything short of two-fisted operation is bogus. :)
Do you think that you would get used to the handle position after a while?
#3 West End Jeff
I imagine you'd HAVE to. :)
I wonder how many T/Os will say to themselves (Who designed this freaking console?) when their arm cramps up the umpteenth time.
#3 West End Jeff
Just sent you a picture by email ... the facial expression pretty much says it all. :)
I liked your facial expression while you were at the controls of the R-143.
#3 West End Jeff
Oh that wonderful "OH SHEET! Bumperkiss and I'm still showing 23 MPH after a full-serve at 2 cars in?" heh. Just part of the foamer experience. :)
Yeah, was discussing the matter with a few MTA adminiswigs and expressed my "what da fuh" over how it was positioned to the gigantic shrug of "well, this is what the engineers decided would be the best" and wondering where the Hades I could get an ofay of that kilo they was smoking when they did the car order ... but hey, "NEW TECH" and "sidearms" are the rage on the *JR* (Japan rail) so lo and behold, the Nips have a secret for Carpal Tunnel unknown to us "gaigin" ("foreign devils") ... so who am I to argue with the "successful low bid?" Domo Arrigato, Roboto-san. Heh.
The Controller on the R142 is in the Middle of the console.
Last week I rode my No.5 train out light from Flatbush to E 180 St do to 2 seats where missing and a kicked out window. Yes someone took 2 redbird seats off the train.
Someone holding doors for no reason that always a problem that why I love those doors on the R142 just press Local Recycle and that does the trick. Those doors will hurt you if held too long I should know I played the door holder in R142 school car.
So the "Local Recycle" button puts more force on the doors to force people to let go? Nice...
You ought to see what the "customer recycle" button does. Blades! (whoops, shouldn't be giving away secrets) ... but if you've noted the massive increase in "medical attention" delays, well there you are. :)
And from the SAME source as the above, I understand that there's a retrofit due for R68's, 32's, 38's and 40's ... yep - Nintendo gamepads to operate, replacing the outmoded "two fisted operation" controls. I tell ya, it's coming apart like a cheap suit ...
No, the Local Recycle doesn't apply more force - it just reopens the one door panel that failed to close until it finally closes. If you are stupid enough to let it do this to more than once, it hurts.
Yes, those R142 doors do hurt. I was also used as a R142 door punching bag during school car. I would expect the R143 doors are the same way.
Brings a tear to my eye knowing the old NYCTA "use it or lose it" rule is about to be reapplied to "customers." :)
This is an ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPH on a train of R46's I was on the other day. I saw this with MY OWN EYES and the WISIWYG (What I Saw Is What You Get) principle applies here.
<a href="http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/getimg.html?32/23.jpg">P Train Picture</a>
WHOA!!!!!!!!! *jaw goes slack*
This isn't a major shift in MTA policy is it?????
Stuart, RLine86 (and not hopefully "PLine86") Man
No, its just a broken "R" sign.
Obviously Mitch but if you have been following the earlier threads on the subject you would get the humor of the situation
I know, I know............ :-D I'm still getting off of the sleep meds I was taking last night.
Stuart, RLine86Man
code 1020 is "P" without a destination
but that was clearly marked with a destination
I thought I saw BAY RIDGE. Also a puddy tat. But that's another thread!
Well, here is what it is.
X X X
The red blocks with the X's in them are the bad blocks which do not go dark. It's a regular R|BROADWAY LCL|via 60 ST|BAY RIDGE|95 ST sign with a P showing because the three pixels that turn a P into an R have not gone dark.
lol, I think somebody used flash... ;)
I usually take the subway a couple days of week to work in Lower Manhattan, transferring at 51/Lexington to the 6 train then the 4. Once in a blue moon, I'll see a R142 signed as a 5 the E'Chester/Dyre Ave . My question is are these train properly programmed for the 5 (meaning interior maps, and automatic announcements), or are they just rerouted 2 trains on the outside?
Any insight would be helpful.
Thanks in advance,
Tony C.
Umm....R-One-Four-Twos are SCHEDULED to be put on the Five line soon. I believe the One-Four-Twos that you may have seen were there because of some shortage of cars for Rush Hour Number Five trains.
(Notice that I didn't use numerals throughout this post.............here they are translated for the nit-witted of minds:
R-One-Four-Two= R-142
One-Four-Two= 142
Number Five= (5) train)
Thank you wery much :0) *bows*
Stuart, RLine86 and NitwitTranslatorMan
Well, as for you answer about the programming of the train. All of the R142's are programmed with all the lines in the IRT so you can use them anyway.
No, they can't do the 1, 7, or 9 trains presumebly. The R143 can only do the J, L, M, and Z.
R142s cannot be properly programmed for riders comfort when changing lines. The maps will be out of service and one can only hope that destination signs and AAS remain in sync. ALWAYS enjoy the smooth ride. CI Peter
Amtrak will end long distence service if..........
Congress will come through with the funding, eventually! After all. congress forked over 15 billion to the airlines last October. I'm sure there are a few Congressmen who have constitients and family members who simply do not want to fly and will want to keep them happy as well.
I agree. But they will be giving us ulcers until Sep 30th.
Boy that article is so anti-rail. The make it seam 1.5 billion is nothing. They give the reader nothing to compare it to (ex. 20 billion for airlines). AND that it doesn't deserve the money.
When I got off Subtalk last night I decided to watch a little TV. To my surprise the History Channel had an hour show called "The New York Subway". I enjoyed in thoroughly. It went from the streetcars to th e El's, Dual Contracts, city takeover in 1940, etc. But I got my big thrill when they showed a Triplex #4, and a R-32 being spray washed. I was able to get my Sea Beach fix for the day. Did any of you guys see it and if so what was your impression?
I'd seen the show before. Entertaining, but I don't know if I learned anything new. Personally, I liked the cut-and-paste animation in regard to the Boss Tweed era.
Was this the show that had that animated 3-D graphic sequence showing the lines in different colors? Now that's something that'd be great to have as a computer program.
Alan Glick
Is this the same as the show "Subway: Empire Beneath New York's Streets," narrated by Jack Perkins, that first ran on A&E a number of years ago and is available on video?
It was narrated by Jack Perkins but since I tuned in five minutes after its start I never got the title.
That's got to be it then... only one he's done, AFAIK.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a VHS copy of that show. The only Triplex I can remember seeing is the one being hoisted off its trucks in (this is a guess) CI shops.
For those who take an interest in transit from a social viewpoint, here is a review and schedule of special speakers here in Washington DC.
Amassed Transit
By Michael O'Sullivan
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, February 1, 2002; Page WE50
"ON TRACK: Transit and the American City," a new exhibition at the National Building Museum, presents an engrossing history of American public transportation and how it has shaped (and has been shaped by) the growth of our cities, but it fails to answer two fundamental questions:
What did it feel like to sit on a wooden trolley car seat 100 years ago? And why do we not yet have space cars that fold up into little briefcases like the one George Jetson drove?
That last question, I fear, is unanswerable. As for the first, it's not as frivolous as it sounds. We can't sit on those hard, uncomfortable-looking benches because they're antiques, on loan from the National Capital Trolley Museum (one of two worthy museums of streetcar transportation in the area, along with the Baltimore Streetcar Museum). Still, it seems reasonable to wonder what impact those unyielding slats had on the turn-of-the-century's commuter's tush, if only by offering the museum-goers of today a less fragile facsimile that we could try out. This is especially true considering that you can sit on the orange cushioned seats the museum has set out in its re-creation of a Metro subway car.
That we've come a long way, baby, is part of "On Track's" multifaceted message, so it's a mite disappointing not to have the message delivered as well as it could be -- through the seat of our pants.
Here's why it isn't. One point that the exhibition makes, and makes well, is the importance of design, not just functional but formal design, in public transportation. After all, it's the "transit experience" -- what it feels like to be a subway straphanger or to jostle elbows with the great unwashed on an unair-conditioned bus versus what it's like to zip around town (or sit in gridlock) in your SUV -- that determines whether or not these systems get used. Comfort and aesthetics are as important as, if not more important than, such issues as economics and access. If getting from A to B for a buck ten were all that mattered, then we wouldn't be having the debates we've been having here about canopy design for our own Metro entrances, nor would Sir Norman Foster's elegant curved glass and metal entryways for the new stations in Bilbao, Spain's system, resembling stylized seashells, be so damn beautiful.
As noted by Building Museum curator Mary Konsoulis, who organized the show with historian Kathleen Franz, the issue of what public transportation looks and feels like is "anything but minor."
So, kudos to the museum for the ersatz Metro installation, which includes the front of an actual car, complete with conductor's booth and a video creating the driver's experience of hurtling -- albeit virtually -- through a subway tunnel. Kudos also, for the early 1960s TV car ads, which go a long way to explain the pre-HOV origins of our love affair with the automobile. In one, narrator Danny Kaye alludes to the writer John Milton, comparing the 1962 Pontiac Bonneville to "such stuff as poets dream on."
Okaaay.
Organized into three broad historical sections called "The Expanding City" (1880s to 1920s), "The Suburban City" (1920s to 1960s) and "The Regional City" (1960s to the present), the structure of "On Track" is set up, naturally enough, around the display of three vehicles, which form its iconic and thematic spine.
First is the aforementioned streetcar, dating from 1910. It symbolizes the transition from foot- and horse-powered locomotion to early mass transit. Next comes a 1929 Model A Ford to represent the city's gasoline-fueled growth outward into bedroom communities. Finally, the walk-in Metro car forms the core of the section devoted to the Golden Age of Heavy Rail (this despite the fact that the country's first subway, actually little more than an underground streetcar, was built in Boston in 1897).
Also included in the show: archival photographs; videos; a recorded compilation of traffic reports by Metro Traffic Control reporter Jerry Edwards; listening stations with such examples of transit-themed pop music as Petula Clark's "Don't Sleep in the Subway"; parking meters from the 1930s, '40s and '50s; ticket-taking paraphernalia; old transit uniforms; collections of bus and subway maps; and a 3-D model of the proposed redevelopment of downtown Silver Spring.
Oh yes, there are also a couple of federal and municipal transit task force reports opened to what must be particularly juicy pages, but I doubt many people are going to read those. At least they let us know that, in the days after such ruthless "streetcar barons" as Charles Tyson Yerkes, Henry E. Huntington and Francis G. Newlands (developer of Chevy Chase) ruled the rails, someone out there (if only Big Government) was concerned for something other than making a dollar.
If the early galleries of "On Track" seem overly crowded with artifacts and a bewildering array of hanging text panels, that's by design. As you move through the space, the rooms gradually open up and begin to feel less cluttered, in much the same way as the theoretical city whose development is charted by the exhibition does. Also helpful is the series of a dozen numbered "stops" that break the installation into intellectually digestible units. Like signs in an unfamiliar subway system, they help to point the viewer's way and to tie the show's numerous themes together.
As for the lack of a seat in the streetcar section, the show compensates by including a "Family Fun Room" with samples of seating and flooring material and touch panels that allow viewers to get at least a tactile impression of the way our notions of physical comfort and its importance have evolved over the years -- and are still evolving. As for me, I'm still waiting for that car-in-a-briefcase.
ON TRACK: TRANSIT AND THE AMERICAN CITY -- Through Oct. 27 at the National Building Museum, 401 F St. NW (Metro: Judiciary Square). 202/272-2448. Web site: www.nbm.org. Open Mondays through Saturdays 10 to 5; Sundays noon to 5. Free.
Public programs associated with the exhibition include:
Monday from 6:30 to 8:30 -- "Downtown: Its Rise and Fall." Prof. Roger M. Fogelson of MIT talks about how trolleys and railroads shaped our urban centers and how highways tore them apart. $14. Registration required.
Feb. 9 from 10:30 to 11:30 -- "All Aboard!" Children ages 3 to 6 and their families can listen to travel-themed stories and design their own train car. $3 per train car. Registration not required.
March 2 from 10:30 to 11:30 -- "Traveling Through Film." Children ages 3 to 6 and their families can watch such films about trains as "Thomas the Tank Engine" and "The Little Engine that Could." Free. Registration not required.
March 6 from 6:30 to 8 -- "The Future of Metro." Richard A. White, general manager and CEO of the Washington Metropolitan Transit Authority, discusses Metro's expansion efforts. $14. Registration required.
April 1 from 6:30 to 8 -- "Bringing Trolleys Back to the Nation's Capital." Alex Eckmann, of the D.C. DOT's Office of Mass Transit, discusses the potential return of light rail to the city. $14. Registration required.
May 1 from 6:30 to 8 -- "A New Transit Community in the Bay Area." Donna Gerber, commissioner of California's Contra Costa County, talks about the planned town center at the Pleasant Hill BART Station. $14. Registration required.
May 11 from 10:30 to 11:30 -- "Tales, Trails and Travels." Children ages 3 to 6 and their families can listen to travel-themed stories and create travel journals for their next trip. Free. Registration not required.
June 11 from 6:30 to 8 -- "Transit Trends in the United States." G.B. Arrington of the engineering firm Parsons Brinckerhoff discusses trends in transit and land use. $14. Registration required.
July 11 from 6:30 to 8 -- "Transit-Oriented Development in the District of Columbia." Karina Ricks of the D.C. Office of Planning discusses efforts to channel development near Metro stations. $14. Registration required.
July 25 from 6:30 to 8 -- "Transit in Black and White." Exhibition co-curator Kathleen G. Franz talks about Thomas Edison's films documenting how Americans responded to early public transportation systems. $14. Registration required.
© 2002 The Washington Post Company
Posted without permission.
Sounds like an interesting display. If, as they say, they have "the front of an actual car" from the Washington Metro, then what car was scrapped to provide parts for this display?
:-)
Frank Hicks
From the TV coverage of the display, it's just a mock-up with a rear projection screen in front of the car. Just like the old driver's ed.
Philip Hom
(a real name)
Sounds like the "simulator" isn't really a sim but just some video...
I caught "Trading Places" last night on cable. I've seen it many times, but a few things caught my eye (and ear) last night.
The first thing is inside the Amtrak train Eddie, Jamie, Dan, and friends catch to meet up with Clarence Beeks. If you watch really carefully, as Paul Gleason (playing Beeks) starts to open the door to the cabin, some masked New Years Eve revelers run down the hall chasing eachother. As they do, the wall that is supposed to hold the door to the cabin actually shakes as the people run past it. I guess that was filmed in a sound studio and not in an actual car. Does anyone know if the sleeper cars on Amtrak trains look like they did in the movie? I assume those were sleeper cars. Unless they have cars that let you ride with only three or four more people instead of a whole carload? Just wondering.
On a sadder note, I couldn't help but get a lump in my throat as the classical music swells later on in the film and the World Trade Center is seen. Who would have thought years later the buildings and so many lives would be gone.
But what really sent a chill down my spine are two phrases Dan Ackroyd tells Eddie Murphy as they are walking right past the front of one of the towers: (not exact quotes)
1. "Nothing you have experienced will prepare you for the carnage you will witness here".
2. "Here it is -- the last bastion of pure Capitalism left on Earth".
Somehow, I can't help but feel that those words were a grim forewarning of things to come years down the road. Anyway, I just thought I would share my observations.
I got in touch with a movie-type person in Hollywood--a friend of mine from the ol' H.S. television production days......and he said that he found out that it was filmed on a soundstage and not an actual car.
I saw it last night, as well, in fact........gotta love Digital Cable, eh? :-D
And yeah....those pictures as well as shots from other movies with (either) location shoots or "stock footage" of the WTC in all of it's glory does make me choke...
Stuart, RLine86Man
Those Amtrak cars were fakes in a soundstage.
Notice how one of the "Amfleet" cars was a BAGGAGE car with no windows?
Sounds like an interesting display. If, as they say, they have "the front of an actual car" from the Washington Metro, then what car was scrapped to provide parts for this display?
:-)
Frank Hicks
From the TV coverage of the display, it's just a mock-up with a rear projection screen in front of the car. Just like the old driver's ed.
Philip Hom
(a real name)
It seems that Amtrak came into the world dominated by air traffic, so the odds of it surving are already slim. When 9/11 came about however it seems that people went back on the trains for the simple fact that even if a train was hijacked, it could not do any super significant damage, except to the train of course. Also for the fact that it was on the ground.
Trains have been given a chance now to prove themselves right now, eventhough its a small window of oppertunity'it can prove excellent. Now it would be a multi-billion dollar thing, but here are the advantages. We reconstruct Amtrak so it looks like a good well ran company. With regional managers, and state managers, city managers etc. Then build a super high speed network (no not 90 m.p.h.) but possibly 200 mph trains. Connecting the major northeast cities. Chicago to NYC, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, Richmond, Philadelphia, Trenton. With super high speed acess, do the same on the west coast. Connecting San Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles, Seattle, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City. This will compete very quickly with airplanes, if the price can be kept low, which in Europe has been able to do. It should become popular very quickly, then expansion should become possible, like connecting the entire eastern seabored, and then the East Coast and West Coast. New York to Los Angeles on a 200 mph train should take 15 hours. The ride is more comfortable then an airplane, and there would be no delay because of turbulance or cheesy reasons. The rail system would be fast, and efficent. New York City to orlando would take 5 hours. San Fran to Los Angeles would be a dash.
Then the Airplane Industry would learn how quickly Rail Service can be a formidable force.
Next, how to run a good rail company 101.
I think a good first step would be to level the playing field by providing at least as much federal money to rail as we do to airlines.
Did I say "at least as much"? It probably would take less than that, considering how much airlines are subsidized directly and indirectly.
Mark
Unfortunately, those changes would require money. The government would gladly give tens of billions to airlines, but if you check out the recent news reports, they're reluctant to give Amtrak the 200 million they're requesting.
As much as I'd like to see Amtrak prosper, I don't see it happening.
correction, they're asking for 1.2 bil, not 200 million. Still a lot less than the airlines got. In fact, the $25 billion total that they've used since 1971 is still less I think than the subsidies that Congress gave out to the airline industry a few months ago.
Of course this would take loads of money, but if Amtrak did have true high-speed lines I think it would definitely be more competition - especially on the NE corridor. I like flying the shuttles between LGA and DCA, but it would be nice if Amtrak (since Penn is right there in Manhattan) could make the trip quicker than it does now.
Wayne
at least Trains do not have to await clearance to their main terminal like certain flights at LaGuardia...............
Like LIRR trains don't have to wait NYP
Keep in mind that some of the routes you are referring to, especially NYP-Chicago and NYP-Florida, run on tracks that are owned by the freight railroads, who will not upgrade their tracks for high-speed passenger service without getting royalties for them from Amtrak. And even then, they may just decide to still tie up the trackage for their own purposes. That puts Amtrak in the same disadvantage vis-a-vis the airlines over time of travel.
What needs to be done is to have better trackage rights agreements between Amtrak (or whoever else takes up passenger service) and the freight corporations, along with double-or-more tracked mainlines where there are currently single tracks, better signaling, and better management on every level. I could go on to say that taxation and the like needs to be looked at and changed, but that's a whole new ball game.
How about going French and building real express passenger lines and nationalising the freight ones?
I know that rail would not be able to complete regionlly here in the southwest because of ticket price.
for example:
Phoenix to
LAX
Burbank
Ontario
San Diego
Las Vegas
The airfare is usally $59 to $99 Round Trip and bewtween Southwest & America West Just to LAX toghter provide 47 daily flights. How many trips with high speed rail 125mph+ would be available from Phoenix To Los Angeles (223 Miles)?
Hopefully their planes are better then this old Lockheed Martin L1011.
Just building a high-speed rail line between Phoenix and LA would be a problem because of the topography, which is why the UP line doesn't even go through Phoenix, but follows the Gila River basin from Casa Grande to Yuma, then to Brawley and north to Palm Springs.
The direct route I-10 uses bounces from 1,800 feet above sea level in Phoenix up to about 2,500 feet near Quartzite, down to 400 feet at the Colorado River, back up to 3,000 feet at Chiriaco Summit and then down to 100 feet below sea level as it comes into Indio and meets up with the UP line. Some of those rises are graduaal, including the one coming west out of Palm Springs towards Riverside, but for a high speed train going 250-300 mph, they would still have to do a lot of briding/tunneling to handle all those altitude changes without resorting to detours to lessen the grade, which would have to increase the length of the trip.
The UP does have a branch line that splits off the main line at Casa Grande the go north thru Cooldge, Gilbert, Chandler, Mesa The West thru Tempe, Phoenix, Avondale, Goodyear & Buckeye then Southwest returning to the main line west of Gila Bend. SP/Amtrak Sunset Limted Ended service to Phoenix in 1992, There are Passenger stations at Cooldge, Tempe & Phoenix.
It seems that Amtrak came into the world dominated by air traffic, so the odds of it surving are already slim. When 9/11 came about however it seems that people went back on the trains for the simple fact that even if a train was hijacked, it could not do any super significant damage, except to the train of course. Also for the fact that it was on the ground.
Trains have been given a chance now to prove themselves right now, eventhough its a small window of oppertunity'it can prove excellent.
It looks as if the window of opportunity is closing quite rapidly. Airline passenger counts, while still down from pre-September 11 levels, are on the increase. Many laid-off airline workers have been recalled and cancelled routes re-started.
Amtrak's problem really is they have to be servant to masters in 50 states when it comes to Congressional funding, and there are at least 20 of those states where passenger rail service just does not, and cannot, make finanical sense operating on tracks it has to share with freight rail. The distances are too far, the speeds are too slow and the trains are too infrequent to get people away from their cars or airplanes.
If privatizing the system is not feasable, Congress should set-up some sort of cost sharing system between the states and federal government, and divide the system into its natual sections (Northeast corridor, Midwest, Pacific Coast) and let the states in those areas put up some of the cost of funding the lines. For the states between Washington and Boston, where passenger rail service is not that much of a money-loser, the subsidies themselves should be that much; but for states like Oklahoma, Arizona or Wyoming, they would have to decide whether or not they want to put up some of their own local tax dollars to keep a line suffering heavy losses afloat.
Yes, it would mean the end of long-distance passenger service for the most part, but unless you can get the train speeds up to the same levels as those in Europe and Japan (which would take construction of dedicated high-speed lines), they're just not going to be attractive to people wanting to get from Point A to Point B either in a hurry or on their own timetable.
Did you guys totally miss Post #318497 ... the one in which I suggested high speed rail along Interstate Highway medians?
Tough in a lot of urban areas, where widening the highway to four, or even five lines in each have shrunk the medians down to the same concrete barrier side on most NYC expressways. You would either have to undertake a major redesign of those highway to allow for placement of the lines, find a new ROW through the urban areas away from the highways or go in an pull a pseudo-Bob Moses and take property on one side of the existing highways in order to widen the road to allow placement of a rail line in-between the ROW.
Rural area redesigns would be easier, because the medians there tend to be wide enough to handle a rail line, though as I pointed out in another thread, when you get to the Mountain Time Zone the grades on some of the Interstates might be too steep in some areas to safely allow trains doing 250-300 mph to share the ROW.
Amtrak's problem really is they have to be servant to masters in 50 states when it comes to Congressional funding, and there are at least 20 of those states where passenger rail service just does not, and cannot, make finanical sense operating on tracks it has to share with freight rail. The distances are too far, the speeds are too slow and the trains are too infrequent to get people away from their cars or airplanes.
Very true ... the United States isn't Europe or Japan, geography-wise, and unfortunately that's not good for rail. Better to concentrate on the NE corridor and other dense routes.
Airline passenger counts, while still down from pre-September 11 levels, are on the increase.
It seems as if the insanity is coming to an end. Now it's time to end the travesty that is the 60-story replacement WTC.
There was an article today in the Newark Star-Ledger that said that unless Amtrak got a few hundred million from the Feds, they were going to cut back on some long-distance rail service.
The article also expressed the possibility of Amtrak giving everything up and just operating in the Northeast Corridor (Boston to Washington) where they can turn a profit.
Since the Feds mandated that Amtrak has to start turning a profit, Amtrak giving everything up except the NE Corridor could be a very real possibility.
Since the Feds mandated that Amtrak has to start turning a profit, Amtrak giving everything up except the NE Corridor could be a very real possibility.
And that would be a giant leap backwards for our society. But maybe it would take something that drastic to shake up public sentiment enough to favor major progress on a national high-speed rail system.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm not really that sure it will be a giant leap backwards for our society.
The golden age of railroading ended with the arrival of the automobile and the commercial jet. The automobile provides the freedom to get there when you want to get there, and the jet gets you there alot faster. If the plane is going to get there faster, then I'm on the plane.
The United States is just too big and too vast to invest in a national high-speed rail system. You can't compare it to Europe.
The golden age of railroading ended with the arrival of the automobile and the commercial jet. The automobile provides the freedom to get there when you want to get there, and the jet gets you there alot faster. If the plane is going to get there faster, then I'm on the plane.
I disagree. The railroad didn't die a natural death in the US; it deliberately killed off by those who have a vested financial interest in building highways and airports. And look what we have to show for it now: Massive freeways choked with traffic congestion, air pollution, suburban sprawl, and crowded airports.
For distances of under 500 miles or so, high-speed rail has the capability of being faster than the airlines, certainly faster than driving, and is a hell of a lot more enviromentally responsible than either. But this viable alternative has been ignored by those, particularly those on the right wing who are beholden to the oil and highway lobbies, who would prefer to see every inch of this country paved over. The fact that they often wrap up their arguments in the mantra of defending some mythical American way of life is even more disgusting.
I also feel that there's a place for long-distance rail travel, although there's room for debate on that one. When's the last time you've ridden a long-distance Amtrak train? Contrary to what some would have you believe, Amtrak isn't pulling empty trains all over the US; most long-distance Amtrak trains are quite full. (Whether or not they actually make a "profit" is a pointless debate. When's the last time I-95 made a profit?)
The United States is just too big and too vast to invest in a national high-speed rail system. You can't compare it to Europe.
That's a stale argument that has been propped up by the anti-rail crowd so many times it's become a cliche. France actually has a lower population density than many areas of the US, and yet they manage to have one of the best rail systems in the world. The rest of Europe is also rapidly catching up. Even the UK, not exactly known for having the finest rail system in Europe, is far superior than the US when it comes to rail travel.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In a few years time, once things are sorted out and some real money is invested, we will, again have the finest rail system in Europe. At the moment there are a few problems, but most are symptomatic of having the most intensively used system in Europe.
Simon
Swindon UK
The SRA's plan however is a disaster. It ignores the UK's 3 largest bottleneck's, namely Birmingham New Street, Cardiff Central, and Leeds, and spends way too much on cosmetic changes to South London Commuter services. That is no way to run a railway.
"The SRA's plan however is a disaster. It ignores the UK's 3 largest bottleneck's, namely Birmingham New Street, Cardiff Central, and Leeds, and spends way too much on cosmetic changes to South London Commuter services. That is no way to run a railway."
I think my compatriot James is being a bit harsh. The London commuter area (which extends up to 60-70 miles from London) is the railways' biggest market, so these lines are bound to get a lot of priority. For example, the Thameslink 2000 plan, if built, will give London something like the Paris RER from several lines extending 50-70 miles north through to several 50-70 miles south, with upgraded track, signalling and stations. That's hardly just cosmetic.
As to bottlenecks -- Leeds has just been rebuilt; Birmingham has had some work done already; and Cardiff isn't really on the way to anywhere except places further west in South Wales. None of these places is on either of the two premier main lines (the East Coast and West Coast), though they are very important junctions on the main cross-country route (which is the worst time-keeping performer). After the London commuters, the next biggest market is the main lines radiating from London. Cross-country services are down the list. And finally, the worst bottleneck of all is Borough Market Junction, next to London Bridge station -- and relieving that is a major part of the Thamesling 2000 scheme.
What is true, of course, is that Britain hasn't got any brand new purpose built high speed lines like Japan, France and (to some extent) Germany have got. Nor are we likely to get any, though the Channel Tunnel high speed link *is* under construction at last, to let Eurostar run at full speed from Paris all the way to London.
On the general issue, I believe that 500 miles is probably the maximum distance over which trains can compete with airlines even with an expensive, completely new ROW. In Europe, many intercity distances are in that range. On lines of 19th century origins, even if upgraded, it's probably 250 miles maximum. There's still lots of good business to be had in Europe over that sort of range. But even then, beware the low-cost airlines -- in the wake of 11 September, the dinosaur national airlines are struggling, but Ryanair and EasyJet are expanding like crazy. I always use EasyJet to Scotland, even though I'm a railfan -- I haven't the time to take 5-6 hours each way.
Actually Birmingham New Street, Leeds and Cardiff Central are the three worst anywhere in Britain BY THE SRA'S OWN STATISTICS. Yes, worse than Clapham Junction, much worse than Borough or Mitcham, and hundreds of times worse than Blackfriars.
The London project which actually needs doing is the Chelsea - Hackney Line (New Yorkers, read Second Avenue). Thameslink 2000 and Crossrail are both very expensive ways of doing expletive all, with certain options messing up the Underground in so doing. Getting from Liverpool Street or Moorgate to the extremities of Norfolk will be just the same. And please no-one mess with my Chiltern Lines, except for making the Birmingham train quicker!!!
Leeds has indeed has had some minor alterations to the fabric of the station, as has Birmingham New Street, but in neither case has this tackled the real problem: the lack of approach tracks. Birmingham New Street could easily be dealt with by expansion at Birmingham Snow Hill and tearing up that silly tramway they've turned the Snow Hill - Wolverhampton main line into.
Cardiff could be easily sorted by reinstating 3 passenger routes:
Hereford - Hay - Brecon - Neath - Swansea
Abergavenny - Dowlais - Merthyr - Neath - Swansea
Pontypool - Quaker's Yard - Neath - Swansea
"Further into West Wales" includes Swansea, Carmarthen, Neath, Bridgend, Port Talbot and Milford Haven, so one can hardly say there is nothing there. Also the Irish ferries leave from Fishguard and Swansea.
Fytton, you must be from the South East to even be able to use Easyjet. They only use Luton and Stansted as far as I am aware. From Birmingham I'd be in Newcastle before I could get to Stansted. And that's despite the Newcastle train operating a silly route via Tamworth and other places which really are not on the way.
I probably am too much of a railfan. I am currently trying to work out how to do Ostend (Belgium) - Jammu (India) by train...
>>> The railroad didn't die a natural death in the US; it deliberately killed off by those who have a vested financial interest in building highways and airports. <<<
Those with a vested interest in building highways includes everyone who owns a car and wants to travel in it. I can not go along with the idea that passenger railroads were deliberately killed off. They died as Americans found travel by car more pleasant, and travel by air much quicker than rail in the post WWII time. If there had been as many rail fans calling for better railroads as there were car owners calling for better highways, there would have been government subsidies for the railroads.
>>> For distances of under 500 miles or so, high-speed rail has the capability of being faster than the airlines, certainly faster than driving, <<<
400 miles would be an outside limit, and would be reduced by the number of intermediate stops which would reduce average speed. Below 400 miles, the automobile becomes more of a competitor, particularly for family travel when the cost of driving is compared to buying three or four tickets.
>>> Contrary to what some would have you believe, Amtrak isn't pulling empty trains all over the US; most long-distance Amtrak trains are quite full. <<<
Trains that run once a day that are full do not prove anything. Compare the number of passengers per day traveling between New York and San Francisco by train and the number traveling by air, and it is very hard to say Amtrak's long distance trains are successful.
>>> France actually has a lower population density than many areas of the US, and yet they manage to have one of the best rail systems in the world <<<
It isn't population density that counts, it is distance. The western European trains are really no longer distance than the regional rail advocated for the NEC and other places east of the Mississippi river (i.e. Paris to Marseille 4hrs). The longest distance trains in France are no where near the distance from Chicago to New York. The longer distance international trains are popular because of the large price differential between rail and flying (i.e. Paris to Rome, 15 hrs $125.00 2nd Class rail, by air: $539.55). The foreign truly long distance trains are the trans-Siberian express and those found in India, but no one ever looks there for inspiration.
Tom
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!
"Those with a vested interest in building highways includes everyone who owns a car and wants to travel in it."
There's a world of difference between the public having a legitimate interest in highways being built and the highway and automobile industries having a vested interest in ONLY highways being built. I drive, and I want some of my tax money to go to the maintenance of roads, and even some new road construction where NEEDED. But I also want some of my money to go to urban transit, which I use every day, and some to go to intercity passenger trains as well, because I use those too.
"Trains that run once a day that are full do not prove anything."
But the trains run only once a day because Amtrak has only enough train cars to operate that many trains, because they get as much money in a year as is spent on clearing ice and snow from the interstate and federal highways. So that doesn't DISprove anything, either. What IMHO does prove something is that those long-distance trains are full despite high sleeper ticket prices that scare a lot of passengers away! If Amtrak had enough equipment, they could charge less and attract more passengers, but since they physically CAN'T carry more passengers, they make the (IMHO, perfectly rational) decision to charge more.
You don't need any new-fangled hi-speed rail sustems. You just need air travlers to pay the true cost of flying. Many consumers will gladly pay the same amount or less for a trip that is much more comfortable, convienent and safe, even if it takes a few hours longer.
I believe it was a Washington paper that sent four reporters to NY via four modes of transportation:
- Air = 2 hr 42 min
- Train = 3 hr 21 min
- Car = 3 hr 48 min
- Bus = 4 hr 55 min (I think he just missed the planned bus)
Mr rt__:^)
Wouldnt it be nice if someone can make a LIRR BVE complete with switches and stations. There could be more then one LIRR route for all the different branches i wonder if anyone is doing this at the moment. Whats ur opinons of this?
Making a route will require many many rides on the line with a huge notpad or a very good quality video camera. After that, depending on how long a line is, the compilation starts. A very grueling ordeal just working with notes.
During more research, I found several paragraphs from various books and old Times clippings to quote that the Smith Street Line was bridged rather than tunneled at Gowanus Canal in a cost-saving measure.
Viewing the art-deco viaduct and the extensive concrete work that went into the steelwork, as well as the truss bridges, it is hard to believe that a simple cut and cover directly under Smith Street and 9th Street with a underwater tunnel would have been more expensive than the ornate viaduct that exists today. Do not forget the property that was forced to be cleared in order to construct that gigantic four track elevated approach to the canal.
Comments?
During more research, I found several paragraphs from various books and old Times clippings to quote that the Smith Street Line was bridged rather than tunneled at Gowanus Canal in a cost-saving measure.
Viewing the art-deco viaduct and the extensive concrete work that went into the steelwork, as well as the truss bridges, it is hard to believe that a simple cut and cover directly under Smith Street and 9th Street with a underwater tunnel would have been more expensive than the ornate viaduct that exists today. Do not forget the property that was forced to be cleared in order to construct that gigantic four track elevated approach to the canal.
It might depend on the canal's depth. If the canal is deep enough, a tunnel would have to go very deep, in the process making cut-and-cover construction on either side of the canal impractical. Soil conditions also might play a part.
I was always amazed that when I lived in New York until 1954, the dad always told me the IND line was closest to a complete subway system since all seven (I think) of its lines stayed underground except for only two stops---Smith & 9th Street on the GG, and aforementioned stopo and 4th Avenue on the F. I don't think any subway system in the world had such a high percentage of underground stops as the New York Indenpendent System.
The Broad Street Line in Phila. (SEPTA) has every station in the subway except Fern Rock (the last stop at the north end. Only about three or four blocks of the line is out of the tunnel.
The rise of the land east of Fourth Ave. in the Park Slope area may have also been a factor. I believe the Gowanus' depth at Hamilton Ave. is about 40 feet, so any tunnel (and station) at Smith-9th would have had to have been 50 feet down there. With the rise of the land, the tracks would also have had to grade upwards or a station like 7th Ave. would have been as deep underground as some of the Washington Heights stations on the `A' or the 1/9.
By running it on a viaduct, the tracks only have to slope down a little after crossing the canal, since the land comes up at Fourth Ave. and meets the tracks, sending the line back underground without requiring a steep grade.
Sounds like the "simulator" isn't really a sim but just some video...
On the Red Line between Friendship Heights and Grosvenor
January 1999: Relays fail, trains begin manual operation temporarily, we are treated to runs going no slower than 60 MPH daily
Throught 1999 and 2000: Relays continue to fail and Metro keeps postponing the return to ATO, trains continue to run over 60 MPH and I see them topping out at 74, 75, and even 77 MPH.
November, 2000: Trains return to automatic, trains hardly ever break 50 the whole way. I get the occasional run in manual when we do see high speeds.
About a month ago: Someone puts a 35 MPH restriction for northbound trains as the exit the portal at Rockville Pike and Pooks Hill Road (near Grosvenor). Cars on MD 355 (including an Orion I) go as fast as the train.
Today: We run manually starting at Medical Center, top out at 71 MPH, then have to slow to 35 for the speed restriction.
Now, what on earth is Metro doing there? I haven't seen any indication of trackwork like what they were doing between Cleveland Park and Tenleytown in past years.
Sounds like the NYCTA is taking over
I hope not. Then again, it took them who knows how long to do that other trackwork between Cleveland and Van Ness and Van Ness and Tenleytown, maybe they will advance closer to Medical Center and the slowdown will be in that part of the tunnel, which while still exciting, isn't as exciting as the leap over the Beltway.
But at least you still have those amazing speed runs on the inner and southeastern Green Line. You do...right?
Inner green line isn't too spectacular, southeastern rates but still isn't as good as red.
Tommorrow, myself, Thurston, BMTman, DaWheelFlange and several others are going to the Amherst Rail Society's model train show.
Will give a report on either Sunday or Monday.
Has anyone ever heard anything about renting abandoned stations from the Transit Authority. Specifically the 18th street station on the Lex line?
I thought it might make a nice restaurant/bar. THICK glass walls along the platform edge.
I really like that idea. I'm not sure who you'd contact about renting TA property, but you could probably find out by asking one of the candy/newspaper vendors in the subway.
Try MTA Real Estate & Concessions. Unless they've moved (to 2 Broadway?) they're still at 347 Madison Avenue, New York NY 10017.
David
C'mon, that place is already in use as a street pharmacy. :)
How about a Subway Sandwich franchise?
Nothing like a company store on company property!
Since it would be on an IRT line, they should have sandwich names such as Hi-V, Lo-V, Redbird, etc.:-)
This station's late-1970's decrepit, graffiti-spewed, urine-soaked, steel-dusted, crack-vialed, homeless-camped, paint-chipped, water-stained, rat-gnawed look could be preserved for a really unique theme restaurant.
Of course for the more conventional-minded, a fully cleaned and restored 18th St. eatery could be established. Either would be welcome.
As an aside, my father worked at this station as an attendant while going to night school during the early 1940's.
The crossunder can be restored.
There was talk of doing that at City Hall, and Giuliani shot it down, citing safety concerns.
Now that we have a train buff as a mayor, I can see something happening at City Hall station. I think it's realistic to say that Bloomberg wouldn't mind having a station/restaurant right under his office.
As far at the idea for 18th/Lex street, I had the same idea when I was in college, and still thought I'd be something someday. I thought it would make a great urban night club, keeping the graffitti on the walls as it is today, appealing to city youth.
Maybe the new mayor will allow rides around the loop on the 6 once again.
Already there......it's now LEGAL to ride the (6) thru the loop...a GO a few years ago prohibited T/O's and C/R's from removing passengers who WANTED to go thru the loop. (The exact information is in the Subway FAQ on this site.)
Stuart, RLine86Man
How about the South Ferry Inner loop. Is that one legal too?
NOPE. That one is still ILLLEGAL. And even worse, if a T/O or C/R were to catch you still inside the train at the Green, there's a cop at the mouth of the Joralemon St. tubes...all the T/O or C/R would have to do is dragggggggggg you to 'em and have 'em write up a ticket for TRESPASSING (or arrest you for CRIMINAL TRESPASSING).
Stuart, RLine86Man
Why would the City hall loop be legal but the Inner South Ferry loop not? grade crossings? Makes no sense.
It's just the stupidity of the TA...they consider the (5) South Ferry loop as non-revenue trackage...even though the City Hall (6) loop is also non-revenue trackage...I suppose Dave Pirmann or da Train Dude can explain it better (or maybe even Alex L.--since that's his turf).
Stuart, RLine86Man
The FAQ on this site now says that permission to ride through City Hall station has been suspended for security reasons. See http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/eastside/cityhall.html.
And they certainly spend enough time sitting at BB telling everyone to get off. If they want to arrest you, you can't say you haven't been warned.
First of all, the page you refer to is not the FAQ. Secondly, it's wrong. The offending statement has been removed. I have a copy of the order at home that declares it legal to ride the loop. If I can find it I'll add it to the real FAQ.
Secondly the FAQ is only as good as people who help me keep it up to date (there are none, at this time). Volunteer to maintain a FAQ page today!
Sorry. I started at an FAQ page and followed links.
How does the C/R select the line, route, etc. for the AAS on the R142/143? What do the menus, options, etc. look like on the console?
Basically step by step how do you get the proper announcements to play.
Thanks
Shawn.
I forgot exactly, but the only thing I remember from a cab ride around the loop (I'll find out more today) is that there's a 4 digit combo. As I recall, they have nothing to do with the route number. The T/O had a little pad of paper and he selected the 4 digits that were in his pad. And when we got to BB, it said "This is a Bronx bound 6 train, the next stop is Canal street." I will try to find out more today, as I am going fanning near the 6.
AAS syncronization requires your motor key. It's simple to make minor changes...changing routes is easy as Clayton suggests...knowing the code for the route, you press the up and down arrows for the four columns and accept. Problem is that the maps inside will light up that the route map is not in use. CI Peter
I like programing those trains. My T/O's don't like to touch the computer.
Look at who we're dealing with! We got this employment because we can shine a flashlight into one ear and the light emits from the other. When I was given special instructions to open all R142 battery boxes, a supervisor stopped me. I informed him I had special instructions from the car desk, explained the details but he wasn't satisfied. I handed him the written orders...he read it aloud like a third grader v e r y s l o w l y. So understand that punching into the TOD is still FAR MORE TECH than your associates can comprehend. We have to work and get along with everyone...they depend upon us to get things done and we watch our backs so as not to get blown up. CI Peter
This sounds so insanely simple. I can understand the strip maps not working for any route besides the one the strip map is printed for. It seems rediculous that the train not be able to make the proper announcements, show the right information on the display inside, or be out of sync with the stations. With 4-digit codes there's more than enough codes to program common diversions, etc. If they aren't already ready now, the C/R should be able to change the code in the middle of the route and skip ahead or backwards to get the announcements into sync with the stations. I was wondering if the was a better way of making the AAS work than it does now, but was lacking information on how it works currently. I don't think it could get any simpler than putting in the correct code.
If it's not there already, I really think the TOD needs a few more "buttons"... "<<" Skip backwards through announcements, ">>" Skip fowards through announcements and ">" Play, to resume the automatic announcements.
Another good option would be if you could select the station you're originating from and terminating to, incase you do not have a 4-digit code that is programmed correctly. With the originating code, if your AAS gets out of sync you could just put in the code for the station that is next, and let the AAS to it and continue from that point. Also, with the originating code you can have a train start the announcements for the correct station if for some reason it has been put in somewhere other than one of your terminals. That feature overlaps with my Fast Foward idea above. With the terminating station, you could adjust your strip map, if you are running on the line it was printed for, and the position of the "Last Stop" announcment. Of course you could just have a 4-digit code that covers the most common occurances.
This all sounds like a lot but is not really too complicated. I don't know how much sense it makes to anyone else, but these things seems like a good idea to me.
Anyone know what the media type and storage capacity is for the AAS or for the train software in general if the AAS is intergrated?
Interesting stuff.
Shawn.
There are a few pictures in the R(omeo)-142 pages of this site of the TOD and CRD panels. This should help you in, well, anyway you need. As soon as I actually find them, I'll post the URL for 'em.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I couldn't find any on this site that acutally show what the actual screens that are displayed on the TOD/CRD look like.
Shawn.
At one time, early in the delivery process, there WERE pictures of the aforementioned control panels...Dave, where are they????
Stuart, RLine86Man
Had a cab problem with software and dumped power to reset. TOD came up just like our computers: processor was a 90 mHz 486. Whoopee!! Media storage??? Just memory....details still not available. It is and has to be simple. As for strip maps........stupid!!!!!! Poor design choice...it is only for one line and if the trainset is shifted, all there is...is an LED lit display to note the map is out of use. Part of T/O training on R142s is to AAS sync...when #2s are brought in for SM, they go one station bveyond Wakefield so it runs backwards. All based on wheel diameter so when wheels get cut I cannot recalibrate the system........dumb!!!!!!!! It will take time to get all the tools together to mmaintain these trainsets. Right now, it lies in the hands of the vendors. CI Peter
The easiest and best way to insure that station announcements are correct (not counting errors in prerecorded announcements) is to abandon the current system of determining the proper announcement (from the moment the TA employee detailed the scheme the first day the 142's went into passenger service on the 6. I knew it would be inadequate). A small transponder should be installed a few feet priorto each station and just beyond any track switch for which a train can change tracks telling the approaching train what station, which track the train is on, and which direction the train is heading and time of day/day of week(Trigger the proper anouncement on transfers. ex: q dimond does not run on weekends). These transponders would be very low frequency radio wave and don’t cost much. They are just like a beacon repeating the same info over and over. A more advanced model could even trigger pre-recorded announcements about train delays. Such as sick passenger/police action etc notifying passengers.
A simple touch screen user interface similar to the interface utilized on the MVM should be put in place. The T/O would simply select the line the train should be signed for, the beginning and ending terminal. No need for complicated 4 digit codes. The interface will contain a listing of all possible stations for the particular line selected by the T/O.
For example a brooking bound 2 train is sitting in Wakefield terminal
The T/O simply selects from the interface
What Line? 2
What is the current station? Wakefield
What ending point? Flatbush/brooklyn College
There is no need for the T/O to do anything else.
If the train moves from the express track to the local track for instance, the transponder in the tunnels will change the next station announcement to the proper local station announcement instead of the express station announcement if the train would have remained on its normal route.
If the station announcement ever gets out of sync. THE T/O would simply select the proper station from the touch screen user interface.
The strip map should be abandoned. They are a well-intentioned idea, but unnecessary. A LED/LCD strip map would add flexibility, but probably cost too much.
All the above could be added with a simple software upgrade. Is it true that the R-142/r-142a/r-143 are controlled by windows based systems?
Windows didn't flag up on the power up so I have to assume it's a propriertary program. Highly unlikely that any additional systems will be in place in the next five years. R142s 'know' their position solely by odometer (in inches.) CI Peter
I doubt they would use Windows or DOS even. They might have a proprietary operating system that runs on PC hardware. It would be interesting to find our how the software is written, what OS and programming language is used. Who do we have to beat up at Bombardier or Kawasaki for this info? :)
BTW, storage space shouldn't really be a concern. Solid state hard drives are getting popular and cost relatively little compared to the total cost of the cars. 512MB solid state HD, $800... 1GB, $1,700... 2GB $2100. These don't have moving parts and do not suffer from vibration damage. I don't think the recordings of the station names will really take up too much space... They could be recorded in 8-bit mono in some low sample rate and still sound good for playback over the train's PA.
Shawn.
My bet would be either embedded QNX or Linux ... for "commercial systems" you want your "code" embedded in EPROM so that it doesn't fall victim to peecee type anomolies and let's face it, Windows CE just eats too much to be practical for "embedded systems" ... A *lot* of "industrial control" runs on QNX and embedded Linux ...
Or it could be plain assembler for the CPUs in use ... but Windows is NOT sufficiently stable for railroad use or any other "life critical" applications. Just not done.
But there is one exception, of course........the MVMs software, albeit, propreitary (however that's speeeeeled :-P) it may be, it's still rooted in WinEnTee (NT).
Well ... if a vending machine craps the bed, it ain't going to kill anyone ... Microsoft does not qualify for "life critical applications" such as running a train, medical equipment, yadayada ...
Moo. :-D
(My friend in SI worked for one of their Gateway stores...he hated their 'puters, too)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Microsoft software is some of the most unreliable software on the market. Corporations are willing to use it for their desktops, but not for their backend critical systems. It has been only in the last few years that mstf has infultrated the low level server market. Linix is far more stable. UNIX is a rock of reliability
UNIX is the backbone of Linux.....I think....Kevin's more....experienced than I am with EUNICHS {the Roman guards who'd have their "thangs" cut off :-D) (UNIX) and Lieucks (Linux). Ruff, Ruff. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
If you really give it some thought, it's an INCREDIBLY sad statement that a 30 year old operating system still kicks butt on the hottest, latest "technology" ... shows you what hosers they are out in Redmond and yet people STILL give the boy money for the latest and shiniest. I guess you really CAN polish a turd. :)
*lmfao* Guess so :-D
Amusing how government just keeps snapping up more Redmond while corporates are embracing IBM and Linux. Go figger. Banks, well ... many STILL run OS/2 for their own criticals ...
But it still begs the question of what ROM-based OS is operating da trains ... it definitely ain't winders ...
Maybe it's propriterary (I know, it's misspelled...so sue me!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
The reason is quite simple why microsoft software holds it's own in the marketplace. Microsoft made a major push a few years back to certify the masses in the IT feild. The end result is that an IT profesional who spent good time and money obtaining his MCSE(and now making nice bucks as an NT administrator) will not abandon microsoft. The IT administrator will not purchace linix desktops.
We all know how microsoft windows/office/ie became the market leader.
Back in the early 90's microsoft strong armed PC manufactures to bundle Windows 3.0 with new PC's. MS DOS was in short supply for those manufactures who refused to pay extra(plus charge customers extra) for windows 3.0 .
Intel strong armed Gateway a few years back in retailation for gateway using AMD CPU's in some of thier computers. Intel alocated CPU to other manufactured at the expense of gateway. As a result AMD chips are ussually found today in mostly cheap computers (computers built on outdated mother boars that are not expandable) Even though the fastest AMD chip is faster than the fastest Intel chip.
The microsoft Intel alliance(wintel) have conspired over the last decade to spur users to upgrade thier PC + Hardware. Microsoft adds "new" features that require increasing more powerful computers. Windows XP requires a substancially more memory to run than it's predecesors. Windows 95/98/me require 32 meg of memory. Windows XP needs close to 100 meg to oporate.
"E"XP"ee" requires (not recommended-----REQUIRES) at minimum, 128 MB of RAM. Before the rest of my computers in the firm's network are upgraded to ExPee, I have to add 192 MB of RAM (per the partners' orders) so that the rest of these 'puters have at least 256 MB when going to ExPee.
Stuart, RLine86Man
What's sad is that Winders is getting MORE unstable and less secure with each new "horking up" ... MiniMe stunk until XPee came along. I wonder if those MVM machines have port 5000 (Universal Plug and Pray) open. Betcha they do and if so, I can make them spit cards until they run out. :)
Hopefully the TA is using encrypted VPN's between the boxes.
Hmmmmmmmmm...........makes you WONDER doesn't it Kevin????????? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hopefully the TA is using encrypted VPN's between the boxes.
Forget the virtual, they'd be jackasses not to use private lines between them. Even so, I fear that it is far too easy for someone to tap into an MVM through other channels.
Mark
Being as it's NTee - just a matter of time. Ended up walking past the "Apple Bank" on (I think) Park Avenue on Kissmoose eve and on their sidewalk TV screens, it said "Error - Event log full, system halted" on all the displays in their lobby ... only NTee can fill a disk with "Dr Watson" error logs (much to IBM's dismay). Bonus points for the bank being named after ANOTHER operating system. I'm sure some crafty kid with a mag strip writer could buffer overflow the MVM witches. Then again, vending machines ain't life-critical so I guess Winders is OK. Wonder if they'll be upgrading to XPee? :)
Vending machines that just happen to take credit cards. I've still got to snap a shot of the MVMs at Cortlandt (BMT.) Maybe tomorrow.
Mark
Better yet even, they could use some kind of text to voice character recongition....it'd make for an even easier programming system, and can be changed easily.
WinXP and OfficeXP both offer Speech routines, one of which is the above-------Text to Speech recongition....and it isn't THAT bad either....I've even used it to "simulate" the 142 female voice....not that desimiliar, I must say....(even though ExPee STILL sucks major arse!!)
Stuart, RLine86 and WhenExPeeMan
Computer voice simulation programs have come a long way in the last 10 years. They do not sound like robots anymore. This would allow greater flexibility for updating station announcements vs. calling in the actors to record new announcements.
This would be a huge help with the current many-b and 9/11 changes
Yeah, I'd LOVE to know who does the "watch the closing doors please" on the 143's ... sounds EXACTLY like "Mister Ed," the talking horse.
Announcers for Bloomberg Radio did the announcements in the R-142/142A and R-143 cars.
David
Kewl. :-D Imagine if it had been Howard Stern? *lmao*
Stuart, RLine86Man
Bloomberg hired Mister Ed? :)
Seriously - if you get a chance to ride a 143, you'll note that it really does sound like Mr Ed saying "watch the closing doors, Wilbur."
Dumped a system today to see if the 'smart card' unit would wake up. Memory if it serves me right read 16,512 kB flash. CI Peter
Don't be so hasty about the O.S.
The metrocard vending machines use Windows NT. Last year, when someone forgot to change to daylight savings time, I saw that it had booted back to NT. (Scary, isn't it----it's just a matter of time before for a hacker gets into the system)
Probably it's better we don't know what the R142 cars use---unfriendly extremists may use it against us).
There's no way to "enter" the system unless you hotwire an connection to the Kernel.
Stuart, RLine86Man
R142/A use Linux.
"Lie"nu"cks"? Cool.....so that means that it's pretty secure, right Kev?
Stuart, RLine86Man
If configured properly ... at least ya don't have Billy sneaking in behind you and resetting all of your security options to "default=none." :)
Right. :) Moo.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hey! You're supposed to do two bars of music before that moo. :)
*lmao* I'm not as musically inclined as I'd like to be :-D
*plays the "Intel" theme* Moo :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Intel theme is just one bar ... they couldn't afford the cover charge. Might wanna listen to that Gateway starter again so's you don't forget the notes.
Dum-ba-dum-da-dum-dum-dum-dum-da-dum moo ...
>>>...moo ... <<<
Hey, that's Gateway. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry, all of the copyrighted code I write says "Moo." internally. First registrar of copyrights document containing it goes back to 1983. I think a certain Texas computer company owes me some money. But I think the commercial's cute - constantly hearing from customers who want to know how much they paid me because the VOICE of the cow sounds just like me as well.
>>>I think a certain Texas computer company owes me some money<<<
Gateway's from South Dakota. What does Compaq owe you?
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoops ... got my Dells and Gateways confused ... they're in San Diego now ...
Dambdible pieces of crap have more software variations than Carter made Liver pills. Every little doodad has its own software and every piece of hardware/software isn't compatable with the last batch. #2 line revision is not good...I'll leave the news to Stef. The only railroad braking system manufacturer around is WabCo....so guess who the TA vendor is...and who's brakes are now having problems on the 'Pride of Hiroshima?' I cross the bridge over the Danmube Monday morning with no regrets. CI Peter
Then what do you do when they run express on the local? The C/R should have the option of entering the starting station and a "skip next" hot key.
They sort of do, they can edit out stops. They did that on the 2 when they were skipping Park Place. The LED wasn't lit for it and at chambers it said next stop is fulton.
Imagine that, if R142/A were to have Windows as their operating system....the TO would be shocked to find the Blue Screen of Doom instead of his route, and line info on his screen.
R142.exe caused an invalid fault error in module 14561741671456:56868978
Wasn't Bill Gates in town a couple of days ago?
It's the BLEW SKREEN OF DEATH, fyi.
But that WOULD be funny.......callin' into ComCent for Tech Support.......................HA!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I can see it now ... "ummm ... have you tried rebooting your train?" ... "grab the shoe paddle and lift ALL of the shoes ... then drop them down and try again" ... "have you forgotten your T/O password? Well then, just hit the escape key." Yadayada ... phone banks of clueless Jennifers are standing by at command to urge you to reboot again or reload your conductor ...
*lmfao* And while the T/O's on hold for Tech Support from ComCent, they play a very BAD rendition of "The Train Is Coming" (by Shaggy :) )
Moo.............neiiiiiigh.
Stuart, RLine86Man
"Your ride is important to us ... please remain seated for the next available operator" ...
"THIS TRAIN HAS PERFORMED AN ILLEGAL OPERATION AND WILL SHUT DOWN"
Sheese! My computer comes up with that stupid message all the time!
Chuck Greene
Brings new meaning to the word "crash" ...
Can one of you subway geniuses give me a little help. I'm flying into EWR and staying at the InterContinental Barclay at 111 East 48th Street. I think there is a train line coming from EWR into NYC now - wasn't there when I was last in NYC. How do I best get from EWR to the IC Barclay? Looks like Grand Central is about 6 blocks away maybe and some stations on 51st street too?
Thanks in advance.
Can one of you subway geniuses give me a little help. I'm flying into EWR and staying at the InterContinental Barclay at 111 East 48th Street. I think there is a train line coming from EWR into NYC now - wasn't there when I was last in NYC. How do I best get from EWR to the IC Barclay? Looks like Grand Central is about 6 blocks away maybe and some stations on 51st street too?
The monorail that runs among the EWR terminals now goes to a train station served by New Jersey Transit trains on the NE Corridor line. There is regular service to Penn Station in Manhattan.
Then E train from Penn to Lexington Ave I guess?
Correct. Connect with the 6 at 53rd Street.
Actualy, forget the connection. It's walking distance to your location from 53/Lex.
Take the monorail to the train station, and grab the first New Jersey Transit (not Amtrak) train to New York Penn Station.
When you get to New York Penn Station, look for the E train uptown to Queens, and take it to the Lexington Avenue station. This will put you at Lexington and 53rd and you can walk the 5 short blocks south to 48th Street.
Have fun.....
Depending on your preferenes and the amount of luggage you have, you might be better off taking a bus from Penn Station NY. The Lex/53 Station is rather deep and even though the escalators carry you up to almost street level, it is a very crowded and cramped station. So if you want, leaving Penn Sta use the escalator to 7th Ave. and 32nd Street (the main entrance to Penn). Cross 7th Ave. immediately and walk east on 32nd Street about and half block. Right next to a shoe repair shop and St. Francis of Assisi Church there is a bus stop where the M4 and Q32 begin, so you pretty much be assured of a seat. Take either bus (both start at the same stop) to 48th and Madison Ave., and walk east one block to Park Ave.
Keeping in mind buses in Midtown are not as fast as the subway. It then becomes a question over which you value more: speed of comfort.
I've been playing with this question for a while. Before I begin I don not mean to offend or make a mokery of this tragedy. If you do feel offended do not e-mail me or respond to this question. If you do feel that you have a responce to this senario then I would apreciate your responce.
The City of New York gave you 15 billion dollars to make an expansion plan for a subway line going into 5WTC. But a Cesna has crashed into the South tower. Luckily no one was killed(the pilot jumped out)but you must repair the damage done. After spending the money for the repairs to the tower, what will you build and how much it will cost?
Considering how strong those walls were, the Cessna would probably bounce off the building.
Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC. I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been, but ultimately, Bin Laden and the Taliban scum are still to blame. What ever happened to the Taliban anyway? ;) You never hear from them anymore. HMMM...
God Bless the USA!
Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC.
Obviously, a 767 is larger and traveling faster than a Cessna ever could (remember F=MA?).
<< Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC. I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been >>
ROTFL! The force behind a fully loaded 767 travelling at 300 knots is beyond belief. Pigs got it right. F= MA and in this case, there was a helluva lot of M and A was very high as well.
"I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been"
They were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 (the biggest plane at the time of design). This they did. They were NOT designed to withstand the fire of tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel. A pricnipal designer, now in his 70s, was interviewed in the New Yorker last October and said that never came up in the discussions.
Engineers have mostly been quoted as saying that to withsatnd that sort of fire you'd make a building so expensive no one would pay the rent. But (see today's Times) they are still trying to learn lessons about how to make buildings more resistant to massive fire.
They were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 (the biggest plane at the time of design). This they did. They were NOT designed to withstand the fire of tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel. A pricnipal designer, now in his 70s, was interviewed in the New Yorker last October and said that never came up in the discussions.
Fire never came up in the discussions??? What drugs were these people using??? News flash: Believe it or not, when airplanes crash, they often burn!
"Fire never came up in the discussions??? What drugs were these people using??? News flash: Believe it or not, when
airplanes crash, they often burn!"
Not the same drugs you evidently have been taking...:0)
Just kidding. But airplanes strikes on buildings are extraordinarily rare; fires in buildings do not reach jet fuel temperatures. When a designer builds a building, he/she has a finite budget and must ensure that the most likely threats are competently addressed, then the next most likely threats, then the next etc.
The result is a very good building which will respond well to all but the most rare occurrances. It reflects the fact that you can make a good decision and sometimes still have a bad outcome. What would the designer not be able to do if he/she had to pump all the available $$ into fireproofing? Would structural supports or wind resistance have suffered? Would the heating systems have been skimped on? Electrical work? You're focusing on one tree and missing the whole picture.
Now, in some instances extensive threat defense is justified. A cask for carrying spent nuclear reactor fuel is designed and built and tested to withstand 70 mph crashes, 90 minutes in 2,000 degree fires, getting broadsided by railroad locomotives and surviving free falls of 100+ feet onto bare ground. That's appropriate.
There's an extensive body of science dealing with this - it's called probabilistic risk assessment (PRA).
I encourage you to read up on it if you are curious.
I understand that there have to be some judgments made as to what are and are not realistic risk scenarios. For instance, automobile air bags aren't likely to provide much protection if a vehicle slams into a solid object at 100 mph. That's not a design flaw, as there's no practical way of making a vehicle capable of surviving such an enormous impact, and most real-world crashes are much less severe.
In the case of the World Trade Center, the designers supposedly made it capable of withstanding the impact of a 707. But they should have realized that the physical impact of a jetliner would, in all likelihood, be followed by a major fire. You can't have one without the other, so to speak. If they had decided that there was no practical way of protecting the buildings and their occupants against a jet-fuel fire, so be it. But saying that the buildings could withstand a 707, while knowing that they could not survive the ensuing fires, is pretty disingenuous.
A 767 carries more fuel than a 707. Perhaps they built it to withstand the fire from 707 fuel, but not 767 fuel (I realize the fuel is the same, one just has more of it).
And also there is the consideration that the most likely scenario for an aircraft striking a building is an aircraft on its descent, not one taking off - an aircraft that is therefore likely to have a significantly lower fuel load.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not really. The designers were looking at an accidental strike, and the amount of fuel carried could vary - see other responses to your post. Admitedly nobody was thinking about the use of a large jetliner as a weapon - not even the government was thinking about that.
So it was definitely not disingenuous.
According to the guy interviewed, he just doesn't remember any discussion of designing for a fire involving a full plane load of jet fuel. They did consider fire involving all the pre-existing combustibles such as office paper, etc. These people were sane, sober, conservative engineers. They just didn't think about it.
In the interview, he was clearly very unhappy about the fact that they hadn't thought about the jet fuel. If they had, they probably couldn't have designed the building to survive forever, but maybe they could have designed it to take a longer time to collape.
It was a very interesting article. Sorry I can't cite the exact reference.
Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC. I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been,
Um, think about it. A Cessna weighs less then 10,000 lbs., fully loaded. Meanwhile, the passengers alone on a 767 widebody jetliner weigh more then 10,000 lbs. (Assuming average weight is 160 lbs., 16,000 lbs.) Add in enough fuel to go from NY to LA nonstop, the plane's body, wings and engines and you have a piece of metal weighing easily fifty times as much (probably much more) as the Cessna.
And don't forget about the laws of physics: A 767 widebody flying at maximum speed (Mach 0.9something) has exponentially more kinetic energy then a Cessna flying at maximum speed (about half of the 767's). No building short of a bunker designed to withstand a direct nuclear attack could have stood up to that kind of force.
The towers were built just fine--the fault is in the giant airplane crashing into them.
Dan
A 767 widebody flying at maximum speed (Mach 0.9something)
What is the unit of Mach as compared to mph?
Mach 1 is the speed of sound (I don't remember exactly, about 1400 MPH, look it up), Mach 2 is twice the speed of sound, Mach 3 is three times and so on.
The speed of sound varies with temperature and humidity, but... at sea level the generally used figure is Mach 1 = 661.7 knots or 761.5 mph. As you go up in the atmosphere the speed of sound decreases, until at 36,089 feet above sea level Mach 1 = 573.8 knots. At that point a factor called the "geopotential of tropopause" kicks in and the speed of sound no longer decreases. (No, I don't have any understanding of the geopotential of tropopause... perhaps our resident meteorologist, Todd Glickman, can explain.) A Boeing 767 cruises at Mach 0.80 (529.4 knots or 609.2 mph); since this is based on sea level calculations, at altitudes in excess of 36,089 feet this translates into Mach 0.92 at cruising altitude. Please note that Mach is a relative term since the speed of sound varies... the knots or miles per hour figure does NOT change at the higher altitudes!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The ability of an airplane to successfully negotiate the sound barrier varies by altitude as well. Travelling through relatively dense air is a challenge and most military aircraft designed for it can manage high subsonic or perhaps transonic travel at sea level. The SR-71 can do at least Mach 3.4, but that occurs in very thin air at 80,000+ feet.
No, I don't have any understanding of the geopotential of tropopause... perhaps our resident meteorologist, Todd Glickman, can explain
Yeah, but is it contagious? :)
--Mark
What ever happened to the Taliban anyway?
Looks like you're about as ignorant of current events as you are of structural engineering and high school physics.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Taliban reference was a joke.
Which makes me wonder why the 767s didn't bounce of 1 and 2 WTC. I STILL think those buildings were not built as well as they could have been,
... Considering the size of those jetliners capable of trans-atlantic flights, I don't think you have enough evidence to put up an argument.
F = M * A
Weight and speed causes a huge difference in the momentum of the object. Those 767's that crashed into the WTC towers could have been capable of gnashing through even the strongest structures in the world. (I was thinking of stone)
The architects of the WTC did pretty well enough building those towers. After all it survived the basement bomb blast, survived a UHAUL truck trying to gash through the basement, and 56 minutes for 2WTC and 1 hr. 40 mins. for 1WTC, which both were 767's.
I don't know what coward will do these things to "try and take down the towers", but it's pretty dumb from the start.
The dramatic difference in the time of the collapse might have been the positioning of the crash.
: (
Two structures, suspending thousands if not millions of tons of weight up to a quarter of a mile into the air and doing so quite well for nearly 30 years, withstanding the forces of time, nature and even having it's foundation damaged to me seems to suggest a structure well designed and well built.
The WTC succombed to forces no man-made structure to date can possibly withstand. If that's your basis for saying they were poorly built, than your expectations are a bit too high.
There is special on TLC right now looking at the very subject of how and why the towers collapsed.
And for those who missed it, it runs again at 1am eastern time ...
I saw it too. It of course relives 9/11 all over again, but at the end of the documentary it explains in detail why the towers collapsed. It also very unusual that the "ground zero" site today closely resembles that same site when everything was cleared and before the towers were constructed.
The TLC special was very well done and imformative. I wish I had my VCR taping it since I stumbled across it when channel surfing.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was sort of unimpressed. Too many talking heads, nothing much that we didn't know already.
It will be rerun this Sunday 2/10/02 at 6pm eastern.
I made the monumental mistake of watching it. I never learn. Whenever I watch anything related to the WTC collapse, I'm due to suffer a sleepless night.
Depending on how often and under what circumstances these events occur, you might not do anything differently than you already do. It would be especially foolish to redirect money away from, and thus neglect, a more common and, ultimately, dangerous threat, in order to deal with a newspaper headline.
The City of New York gave you 15 billion dollars to make an expansion plan for a subway line going into 5WTC. But a Cesna has crashed into the South tower. Luckily no one was killed(the pilot jumped out)but you must repair the damage done.
A Cessna airplane can do no more damage than that incident a while ago where a 15 year old decided to drive it into one of the skyscrapers in Florida (I think). The building hit was an unoccupied law office building, and only shattered the windows, while the building did not suffer any structural damage.
Compare that skyscraper to the South Tower of WTC, and that Cessna will do almost nothing. My Architectural drawing teacher is training to become an airplane mechanic (TONS of ?'s to remember), and he interprets
"Flying a Cessna into a building is like shooting a rubber band into a wall".
He also said something about the wings being no thicker than an aluminum can, which I'm not sure if I heard correctly.
I don't think damage will be a dreadful thing to worry about. But will it be?
an Avro RJ might have more of an affect
What's an Avro RJ?
Here are more links to planes
Here is a pic, the other one didn't come out for some reason.
Very handsome airplane. Configured for STOL, no doubt, for short fields. Similar design philosophy to the Air Force's C-17, in some respects.
Hey, guys! Sorry I haven't been around for awhile, (like you care :)), but I've been busy getting my computer back up. Seems Windows XP got VERY angry when I tried to move my hard disk to my new computer. So, I've reinstalled everything.
Anyhow, I was wondering how you feel about the Daily News' article stating Mayor Bloomberg is putting the number 7 line extension above the 2nd Avenue line on the priorities list. I have mixed feelings. Extending the 7 would be great, but we NEED a 2nd Avenue subway bad.
As for sending Metro North to the WTC site, how about reopening the West Side Freight line?
Just some thoughts.
Tony
PS: Happy New Year if I haven't mentioned it already! :D
Welcome back. Good luck with your new computer.
There's a long thread on this subject.
Bloomberg pushes extension of 7 west and south
Bloomberg may have decided that stimulating development in lower Manhattan (esp the far west side), hit hard by the WTC tragedy, takes higher priority.
Bloomberg calculates that both projects are pretty NIMBY-free (but commercial development has had a NIMBY problem), so the negative consequences of spending money on the 7 extension first are low. He then figures that $1 billion is easier to obtain than $8 billion for Second Av right now. Time is a problem though; I don't think an Environmental Impact Statement has ever been done for that project. I don't know how quickly a project like that can begin.
He is correct in thinking that the presence of a subway line will stumulate development, and will help crush NIMBY opposition to commercial development.
However, MTA is a state agency, not a local agency, so Bloomberg may not be able to re-order priorities by himself.
Yeah, I hear Windows XP is very picky. They say it is very difficult to add new things to it. In fact, I am still hesitant about getting it.
- Lyle Goldman
I have compiled a list of all mayors in New York City History.
The city lied, there were 112, not 108.
Here it is. So no more speculating as to whether a certain subway station may or may not be named after a street named after a mayor.
93.Robert A. Van Wyck 1898-1901
How did the good Mayor pronounce his last name? Some say as a homophone of 'wick', while others (most others, I think), like myself, rhyme it with 'like'.
I myself rhyme it with like, but I used to do it the other way around (and before that differently yet).
I should point out that the City considers Van Wyck to be the 91st mayor. At first I would have thought I added four extra mayors to the list, but the city's own list of mayor's since subjugation in 1898 fails to list Ardolph Kline and Joseph McKee. I assume there are two other mayors about whom the city doesn't want us to know, so I used my own numbering.
Go to the Mayors of New York List as listed in the above message.
OK, who served from 1688-1691 (between #17 and #18 on your list)?
And also, can you identify the ones not on the City's list?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was during the time of Jacob Leisler. I'm not sure of the details, but he was placed in charge of the city's main fort (where One Bowling Green is now) and ended up seizing power in the entire colony in a coup. He was deposed and executed in 1691. During this time, no mayor was appointed, as it was then the job of the royal governor to do that.
Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK I give up. Who are the 4 Mayors?
...and those Mayors are...?
Two of those are Ardolph Kline and Joseph McKee. I do not know who the other two are, I can assume that they mean mayors who came to power through succession and not election (like Gerald Ford).
Ford was a mayor of New York? And I missed it! Darn!
Wouldn't that be ironic?
How about re-compiling the list with the four in a different color, so we can see who the city's hiding easily.
And, there's gotta be a reason why those four aren't on the "official" list.
If I knew who all of them were, I would have done that (I actually would have skipped the numbering when it comes to them).
Do you have the list of the 108? Do they include the two interim Mayors between Walker and LaGuardia?
As to Mayors who have oppressed Brooklyn, would you regard Seth Low as an exception, or do you consider him a quisling?
I don't consider him a Quisling, but I'm really not sure what his role in the subjugation was.
Maybe the official list only counted each person once, so for example if someone was re-elected, he would only count as one person on that list, where as you counted him twice.
Example: Thomas Willett (#1 and #3 on your list), William Russell Grace (#86 and #88). Could there be 4 such people?
I would have thought that, but the city's list of mayors since subjugation in 1898 skips over two people completely, they were not elected, but instead became mayor upon the previous mayor's death or resignation. I assume they're skipping people who became mayors through succession and were not re-elected (like Impelliteri).
Grover Cleveland was the 22nd and 24th president.
4th Avenue Local: How about rating the Mayors of New York. In my opinion, Fiorello LaGuardia was the greatest of them all, and Abe Beame and John Lindsey and William O'Dwyer the worst. Giuliani is in the top five, and so is Koch.
I am surprised that you do not include John Hylan with the worst. This guy waged war again the subways when he was mayor.
Yep Hylan sucks.
Why was South Side Blvd on Staten Island named for him?
The story I heard when I was over there was that Hylan was locally popular for convincing the Port Authority to build the New Jersey Bridges and because he took interest in other public works on Staten Island.
Not too many Mayors have paid much attention to "the Boroughs," no less Staten Island.
I thought about that before I made my list. I figured that vengeful bastard was so low that he shouldn't even be mentioned. In other words, he was below mentioning.
I won't talk about the most recent mayors, but some of the older ones may need to be evaluated in relation to their times. I think most people would consider Wagner to have been a good mayor, especially since he was followed by the disastrous Lindsay, but Wagner presided over the slow decay of the City which helped set things up for JVL. I think Wagner could be characterized for a sort of "clubhouse competence" and labor peace that's been recently admired.
One figure that could stand a lot of scrutiny is LaGuardia. He was very much a man for his time, but not necessarily this one. He was a "real Republican" like Giuliani but unlike Lindsay or Bloomberg. He was born in New York and would probably be considered one of the most "New York" of mayors, but he was raised in the West as an Army brat and had a remarkable diplomatic career before coming back to the City as a virtually carpetbagger.
As to Beame, I don't think anyone remembers him with affection, but he had a very tough and unpleasant job to do, and did, helping set up the prosperity that Ed Koch managed so well.
Koch, LaGuardia and Wagner all had problems in their third terms finding any kind of voice about what they wanted to do, other than stay mayor of New York. The disinterest led to problems that were exacerbated by the mayor that followed, though in O'Dwyer's case, it was more personal corruption that got him into trouble, compared with a perceived decay in the city's service and quality of life that occurred under Lindsey and Dinkins.
In retrospect, Giuliani's future may actually be better politcially because he couldn't serve a third term, based on the experiences of his predacessors. Of course 9/11 would have given him somthing to do for at least the first two years of his new term, but before Sept. 11, there was no question Rudy's mayorality didn't have the same focus his first term did. By 2004-2005, that might have been the case again and he might have found himself in the same situation Koch was in 1988-89, Wagner was in 1964-65 and LaGuardia was in 1944-45 - in office with no defined goals, eroding support and no political hopes of any higher office.
Check out the list again. The mayors that are listed came to power by succession and have done so since the mayor has been elected (as opposed to appointed). The numbering is skipped over them.
it sems that the sony website
webshots on exite
& almost all web locations that allow photo storage ban uploading on other sites
( like posting a picture on this site ) ..
maybe yahoo photos will work ... lets see...
this may not hold
what sites do you use ?? ...
rats!
try aqain..
try again..
Check the URLs you are using. They appear to be incorrect.
Peace,
ANDEE
thankz a million ... for the advice etc...
it seems that my yahoo groups that i own under
los angeles metro blueline yahoo group it seems to works under the file section load it in then upload it to subtalk. & the other post 3 ahead of this one was tested from yahoo photos & it did not hold very long at all . ( failed )
oh well i am still learning this computer stuff & i have a long way to go.
again thankz for the forum Mr. David P. !!
use geocities. There's a trick, that if you add a ".x" to the end of the filename, it'll work because geocities doesn't think it's a picture anymore (but the browser will still figure it out).
so change picture.jpg to picture.jpg.x
I don't know if this works on any other places
i will take your advice
it seems that they blocked my other 2 pics ..
damnit !! it worked for a little while ...
( sigh ) .....
lets see if adding the X in small...x...keeps the pic on & it does not go away ... lol
good luck ... i need it ... lol !!
,4thAvenueLocal on Sat Feb 2 14:27:07 2002.
*************
thankz guy but it dissapeared .... oh well ....
i failed again ...
i must look like a fool ...but at least i tried !!
next time use tripod ?? .... hmmmm...
I'm not interested in posting photos in the text of SubTalk posts, but I'll discuss the free photo sites that I'm using.
I started with Tripod when somebody on Subtalk mentioned it, but I found it excruciatingly slow to open. I then went to Yahoo, but soon discovered Webshots, which I use now because I find it most convenient. I'm open to suggestions from people who are familiar with additional free photo album sites.
I uploaded another Webshots page of scanned 35 mm slides.
chuchubob's Railfan Slides 4
I also uploaded (some of) my vacation pictures from Orlando the third week of January. They are off topic for NYC subways, but have shots of Disney's steam locomotive and the monorail, as well as some shots of the Orlando Amtrak station (1926) with "Seaboard Coast Line" prominently displayed on the front, and the arrival of the southbound Silver Star. Also, to make the page symmetrical, two shots of Cocoa Beach were added.
January photos from Florida
Another review from the Wash Post.
(The writer may have mistaken the 1905 movie showing trolley where the cars are actully cable cars.)
The show is free BTW.
'On Track': How We Got Here From There
National Building Museum Follows the Route Of City Transit From Trolleys to Traffic Jams
By Benjamin Forgey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 2, 2002; Page C05
The year is 1905, and you find yourself boarding an electric trolley in San Francisco. It carries you at an even pace along Market Street for a minute or so in perfect comfort -- no stops, no bumps, no sways from side to side.
Your eyes are treated to a mesmerizing spectacle of weaving urban movement. Errand boys in knickers and suited men by the dozen crisscross in front of you, nonchalantly avoiding moving vehicles of every description: fancy carriages, horse-drawn trucks, automobiles with thin wheels and tall profiles, jampacked trolleys traveling in the opposite direction.
Too quickly, the strange ride comes to an end . . . and the tape rewinds and plays again. The people, the horses and the cars repeat the dance, making the same darting moves in grainy black and white on the television monitor at the National Building Museum.
This entrancing slice of vintage film, lasting maybe a minute and a half, begins the museum's new exhibition, "On Track: Transit and the American City." I gazed through five or six repetitions of the short reel before moving on -- a bit excessive, I must admit, but there is much to see.
The film encapsulates an important moment in the life of San Francisco and, by extension, of American cities generally. All roads -- and streetcar lines -- coalesce in the city center, making it a vibrant commercial and civic core. The architecture that frames the street is bumptious but vital. There is an aggressiveness in the air -- you would watch your step in a place like this -- and a catchy optimism, too. All that movement seems to say: We're going places, just you watch.
All the main modes of urban transportation were there on Market Street: walking, the most ancient form of transit; animal-powered wheeled vehicles, the first great technological leap in transportation, here taking a sort of last bow; the electric-powered train, which brought its efficiency to city streets (and undergrounds) late in the 19th century; and the gasoline-powered automobile (and truck), the wave of the future, here making a debut.
Today, we are still struggling mightily -- if none too successfully -- to find the right balance between these different means of getting from place to place. It is a subject almost everybody cares about. Transportation costs a lot -- it is second only to housing in the average family's budget. And it takes up a whole lot of our time -- witness the ever-increasing deluge of complaints about traffic.
When the word "transit" is uttered, however, most people think right away of rail lines and buses. In effect, they hear one word and visualize two: "mass transit." Three cheers to the organizers of this show, then, for acknowledging that the private automobile remains far and away the predominant mode of transit in and around American cities.
Despite the fantasy-land television ads of the car companies -- hey, when was the last time you even saw an open road, much less drove your SUV to the top of a desert mesa? -- the vast majority of the time we spend in cars is on crowded highways and streets trying to go, oh so slowly, from here to there. The traffic crisis, in other words, is a transit crisis, and building more roads for ever more cars is not going to solve it.
The exhibition makes this clear -- sort of. Organized by Building Museum curator Mary Konsoulis along with Kathleen Franz, an associate professor of history at the University of North Carolina-Greensboro, "On Track" is divided into three sections corresponding to three eras of transit -- "The Expanding City," running from the 1880s to the 1920s; "The Suburban City," from the 1920s to the 1960s; and "The Regional City," from the 1960s to the present.
You see a lot of neat stuff and absorb much useful information along the exhibition route. The first segment is the most comprehensive and compelling. Primarily, it documents the astonishing rise of trolleys and subways and the very nice (but racially and ethnically segregated) planned suburbs that they engendered.
"The electric railway has become the most potent factor of our modern life," engineer Frank J. Sprague said in 1904, and he had reason to brag. In 1888, he had introduced the first successful electric streetcar system in the United States, and 16 years later almost every city in the country had a respectable system. A 1908 map of Washington, for instance, shows a spider's web of streetcar lines centered downtown and heading out every major road.
The "suburban city" segment, appropriately, is all about the car. There is some good material here documenting the links between federal programs favoring single-family homes in the suburbs and the evolution of our traffic nightmares. There is some terrific anecdotal stuff, too -- a video clip, for instance, of former San Francisco Mayor Joseph Alioto reminiscing about his freeway-fighting days: "That highway crowd, if you gave them a chance, they would put a road right through the Vatican if they figured by doing that they save a little space or save a little mileage."
Basically, however, the exhibition begins to go a little limp at this point, and it loses its analytical focus altogether at the end, with "The Regional City."
We all know, for example, that buses replaced all those streetcar systems -- by 1975, the number of cities in which such systems had operated had dwindled from hundreds to seven. But was this a terrible thing, a good thing, or a mix? Although the sequencing of the show suggests its curators think it was pretty bad, we aren't offered much in the way of documentation one way or the other. And there's not much here to answer the nagging question of why the shift took place.
And sure, many of us are heartened by the recent upsurge of mixed transit systems -- combinations of cars, buses, "heavy" rail (i.e. subways), "light" rail (i.e. streetcars) and even bicycles. There are, after all, some very good examples in the Washington area -- the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor in Virginia is properly featured in this show.
Again, however, visitors aren't really told why this is a good thing -- they are just supposed to get it, somehow, and go away feeling warm and cuddly: "Ah, things are getting better." But things aren't getting better on anything like the scale needed to "solve" the transit crisis, and I suppose that, at heart, most of us know this.
Which is fortunate, because this exhibition doesn't tell us the truth: From a transit perspective, our "regional cities" are getting more dysfunctional year by year. There are lots of little reasons why this is so, but there is one big overriding cause: the tremendous disconnection between our land use patterns and transportation goals.
In his recent book, "The Shape of the Future," Fairfax planning consultant E.M. Risse points out that in the 1980s, America's urban regions grew in population by 15 percent and in area by 400 percent. Not surprisingly, this produced a 50 percent increase in vehicle miles traveled.
Nothing has changed much in the last decade to reverse this trend -- which means, simply put, that urban sprawl is alive and well. Until we come to grips with this, we'll remain trapped in the vicious cycle of more cars/more roads, more roads/more cars. It's that simple.
On Track: Transit and the American City continues through Oct. 27 at the National Building Museum, 401 F St. NW. Monday through Saturday from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. and Sunday from 11 a.m. to 5 p.m. Admission is free. 202-272-2448, www.nbm.org.
© 2002 The Washington Post Company
Reprinted without permission
Phil Hom
TA is hiring 60 people in March, and they're up to my list number. Rumor is they're all going to the A division. I'm drug-free, and have no criminal record, and in excellent health. I hope to be a T/O by the end of the year.
Good luck!
Thanks.
I wish you luck. I saw a list of classes for the next few mouths and the next two classes are going to be A Division classes. 60+ in the first 21 in the second.
Robert
Why are so many going to the A?
If I get the job, and am assigned to the A, I won't consider myself a real T/O until I get to work the B division. Sorry, the Mickey Mouse Railroad just does not measure up to the B divsion.
Work the A Div. When you come over to the B Div you can fall asleep on the trip. 10 minute headways and more built-in 'slop' time than I know what to do with.
I would have a laptop with a modem and write to Subtalk. I'am sure it can fit in the TRANSVERSE CAB.
>>When you come over to the B Div you can fall asleep on the trip.<<
So that explains why the trains are so slow on the BMT.
Hell yeah!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I miss read the list, what I say before are classes that are already in school car. The are on own within the next mouth or two. Ther are two classes starting one this mounth of 42 A/B & one next mounth of 22 A/B. Sorry of the mistake.
Robert
Best wishes for the best work. Be a TA Ranger...don't seccumb to the TA Shuffle. Learn, do your work well, earn respect and stomp the slackers. It's the best decision I have ever made in my life. CI Peter
What's your list number? I've got #1859.
-Stef
Congratulations and happy motoring! :)
I am going to 18 washington street this wednesday hopefully to apply for MTA trackworker. last time the test was out i was told that the requirements were high skool and when they call u u must be able to lift 80 lbs. Anyways i hope to take this test. Anyone know the requirements???
Does anyone here know the acceleration rate of the Rohr cars? I am making a BVE route and need this info. It is not on www.wmata.com nor could I find it in "The Story of Metro".
I know PATH is technically a railroad governed by the FRA but what do you all consider it to be? I think it is a subway system, since it looks and operates like one.
I agree with you, in that the nature of operation should assign the definition. Commuter rail and subway (rail based rapid-transit) systems have very different operating modes, and serve very different purposes. They may be complementary, but they are incompatible.
MATT-2AV
It's in a sort of a sub-class which you could call suburban or interurban rapid transit. "Subway" is too restrictive, and it isn't a railroad in the usual sense.
In a similar class are SIRT and P&W (SEPTA Route 100).
I'd say it's as much of a Subway as the London Underground if not more. Anyone who's ridden the Bakerloo Line North of Queens Park or some of the furthest branches of the Metropolitan will know what I mean. All this "commuter railroad" stuff is a rather hazy distinction.
But you're looking at the totality of a system. New York City and London Transport are, by American definition, subway systems, so their branches and outlying lines are part of the same system.
The Rockaway Line, standing on its own, would not be a subway line, likewise the Atlantic Avenue Line of the LIRR, is it were cut off of the LIRR and hooked up with the City system, would easily be viewed as a subway line.
The totality of the PATH system is not a subway line in the usual American context, any more than the CA&E or North Shore or Liberty Bell Lines were rapid transit lines by virtue of running partly on rapid transit trackage.
au contraire, mon cher. The above ground segments of the PATH are no less subway than many parts of the Chicago L which we usually group with subways rather than mainline RRs. However, the western extremity of te Lake (Green) St. L is physically on a fenced off part of the former Chi & NorthWesterm. In turn the Red Line north of Wilson Ave used to switch freight which it interchanged with the former operator of the ROW from Wilson to Evanston.
I think the distinguishing characteristics of 'subway or mass transit are elastic and every time I try to make a hard and fast distinction I can find an exception.
Multiple unit operation with high level platforms and barrier fare control on short headways with closely spaced stations?
The Metra Electric comes close. The Norristown HS Line Septa 100 is however usually single car pay fare on train yet clearly some sort of mass transit.
besides, the above describes the downtown tunnel operations of the SF MUNI streetcar system.
OTOH the Cleveland Red Line (high level plats, MU in rush) does pay fare on train in off hours is it mass transit?
PATCO has a double lineage--yet to me it is clearly a 'subway' type operation.
I am afraid the famous Supreme Court quip (Justice Powell if memory serves) applies. I can't define subway (porn) but I know it when I see it
Mon cher? I'm not even going to go there,
excuse me it was solely irony.
I knew that.
eh bien, vos idees ?
eh bien, vos idees ?
If we'e going to continue down this linguistic road, shouldn't we be talking about Montrèal? In fact, if you discuss Canadian Subways/Canadienne Mètros, do I have to post everything in both languages? That would be a bummer. I took two years of French in High School and was so bad at it they made me switch to Spanish. But I know what I need to know--in a restuarant I know the difference between ris and riz.
Anyway, enough of that. I would personally rarely describe something as a "subway" in any generic sense. I have long preferred the term rapid transit system or urban rapid transit system. So my definition of "subway" might be a lot more restrictive than others.
Take the example of NYCTA and CTA.I would say they are, without doubt, in the same category of rapid transit systems (similar right-of-way in general, equipment, operating characteristics, type of area served, service patterns, purpose (home to work or recreation). But if someone were to ask me if the CTA is "a subway system" I could only answer yes if I could qualify my answer.
OTOH, if you're using subway generically, as Metro is in Europe, I could include a lot more systems.
Interesting to me is the term "light rail." Light rail is "hot" (one NYS DOT official told me it was "sexy") in modern planning. So there is a tendency to use the term very broadly. The JFK AirTrain is being called a light rail system, including by the Port Authority. Yes, it is light (compared to, say, the D train) and it is rail. But is it "Light Rail"? Seems like a stretch to me.
agreed. To me subway is the short name for mass transit or rapid transit. I call BART the subway to the conternation of some locals.
As to light rail, my sense is that the San Diego system (which cheated the disabled and US workers) was 'sexy' because it was way cheaper to build than BART (the only two systems in Ca in the early seventies.
BART of course had been built in typical DOD style--gross cosdty overruns and the system has never performed as advertised. SF MUNI has shown that Light Rail can include simlar overpriced underdesigned hardware and software. (Breda cars and Alcatel ATS/ATO) It is dismaying to be living in the declining years of an imperium.
But you're looking at the totality of a system. New York City and London Transport are, by American definition, subway systems, so their branches and outlying lines are part of the same system.
Yes, but at least four different sizes (mainline on the Northern City and W&C, sub-surface on the Met, H&C, Circle, East London and District, something puny on the Central and yet another type on the Northern and Bakerloo) of stock operate different London lines. The W&C and Northern City are as much part of the system as PATH is to NYC and have varied in consideration as to what they actually are, so the comparison is entirely fair. The current situation in London is that the H&C is part of the Underground and the Northern City isn't, but that is so subject to change that the distinction is arbitrary. I suggest that the NJT - PATH - Subway distinctions are also arbitrary. It is a continuum. Unfortunately the FRA doesn't seem to like continua.
I agree that the question of how to distinguish a subway/metro from a commuter train is pretty tricky. So far as London is concerned, the Northern City line had small cross-section trains when it was part of the Underground and now has mainline size trains as part of the commuter WAGN system. The Waterloo & City line was part of British Rail, is now part of the Underground, but has always had small cross-section trains to fit its small tunnels. Between Queens Park and Harrow and Wealdstone, Bakerloo line trains and Silverlink (ex-BR) trains actually run on the same tracks. Ditto District Line to Richmond and Silverlink North London Line trains. And by the way the extension of the Newcastle Metro to Sunderland is going to share its track with trains.
Presumably the reason why PATH is treated as a railroad is that it crosses a state line and therefore has to be regulated by a federal authority, and the FRA is the only one available for the job.
PATH is treated as a railroad because it was originally the Hudson and Manhattan Railway (or Railroad, I don't recall), which shared trackage with the Pennsylvania Railroad. Since cars were interchanged between the lines and trains of the Pennsylvania ran over the H&M's tracks, it was regulated accordingly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, the former CTA freight operation on the now Red Line which specifically interchanged with the MILW did not make the L a mainline RR. There is clearly more here than dry facts.
Isn't bilateralism allowed in the USA? You know, an agreement between the states of NY and NJ?
Since they removed any connections to ex. Pennsylvania RR trackage, I would call it a subway system.
However, it shares bridges over the Passaic River with Amtrak/NJ Transit, and ROW through Harrison, so that is what is keeping the FRA involved.
its like a glorified Subway similar to NYCT. they even have some of the same rules like i seen a sign saying T over 35 miles. which means the same as NYCT. But they run thru Railroad territory so they have FRA involvement. they also have Engineers and not motormen
But subway style livery. No padded seats.
However, it shares bridges over the Passaic River with Amtrak/NJ Transit, and ROW through Harrison, so that is what is keeping the FRA involved.
Probably the biggest reason is the RR unions that have refused to let PATH switch into transit. I think t=it is a good idea to keep PATH a RR as traffic levels increase (notably between DOCK and HUDSON) it might become necessary to have PATH and NJT/Amtrak run on the same tracks.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck . . .
PATH is a duck?
You forget Rule #1 in dealing with the federal government though: even though it might LOOK like a duck,QUACK like a duck, and WALK like a duck,the feds can still call it a chicken if they want!
I put PATH in the same class with PATCO. That is, an interstate rapid transit system. I realize that some other systems like WMATA crosses state line but that is more of a regional rapid transit system like BART. Both PATH and PATCO exist primarily to transport people from one state to the other and have major water crossings to do so.
SIRT I consider as suburban rapid transit. Although it is within the political city limits of New York it is geographically separated from the center city and it also has a very specialized fare collection system.
Norristown is a little tougher to describe. It can be considered suburban raipd transit because it begins at at outlying suburban terminal requiring a transfer to another system to reach the center city. I have no problem putting Media and Sharon Hill into the suburban light rail catergory but Norristown operates single cars unlike any other system and seems to generate much more of a local ridership. Possibly out of loyalty to the old interurban days I like to consider it an "Interurban" since it continues to connect two cites, Upper Darby and Norristown.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Another similar to Norristown is a connector line to the last stop on one of the two TCC Toronto subway lines. A single car with a T/O running. The cars a very similar in appearance to the Vancouver automated subway trains.
Peppertree: I have heard the Scarborough LRT described as "an industrial-strengh people-mover."
Larry,RedbirdR33
How does one define "subway"?
PATH when it was the H&M was considered a railroad, Pennsy Freight later Conrail at times shared the same trackage
Back in H&M days it was definitly a railroad. It ran on PRR main lines and was signaled by PRR interlocking towers.
I consider it Mass Transit. Technically, subways are underground railroads. However, PATH has the destinction of crossing a state line. But, the rolling stock does indeed look and act like a subway. I propose a new term. "Interstate Subway." What do you think?
Sounds interesting...now for legislature to create rules and regs for such an (ahem) "Interstate" Subvay.
Stuart, RLine86Man
PATH crossing a state line isn't unique. DC Metro, PATCO and St Louis Metrolink do the same thing.
I never rode the London Underground and I always wanted pictures of the trains used. Well I found some pictures.
http://www.londonrailways.net/stock_l.html
and some stations:
http://www.londonrailways.net/photos.htm
Did you know that this site has like 800 pictures of the Underground?
383, to be precise. :-)
If you are interested in books about London Underground, go to
www.transportdiversions.com
I recently purchased on line the book Metropolitan Railway Rolling Stock, which has photos of trains from 1868 to 1933. They have other excellent books about London Underground.
The one you want is "UNDERGROUND MOVEMENT" by Paul Moss, 224 pages. This one has EVERY SINGLE TUBE and SURFACE STOCK from 1920 to present, with great photos and detailed descriptions. It's not cheap, cost me 30 pounds, but it's worth it. Not sure where to get it here in NYC but I know for sure they have it at Covent Garden.
wayne
Thanks for the info. This book is also listed on www.transportdiversions.com and lists for 30 pounds.
bn.com lists the book at $52.95, in stock, ships within 24 hours. (And right now order two books and the shipping's free.) Amazon only lists one used through an affiliate, at $110.00.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Flushing Line... What do out of towners think of that name? Such as John Rocker?
'Flushing' is the source of infinite potty humor. I think just about all of us wish there was a plumbing firm "Flushing Toilets and Plumbing Supplies" right there where Northern Blvd intersects the GCP, with a giant neon sign pointing down to it.
Hmm, Flushing Meadows.
There was a Simpsons episode where Homer (big dumb obnoxious guy) really wanted to go to the bathroom but he had to wait for a traffic guy. And he say a bus saying "To Flushing Meddows" and he had a dream of him frolicking around in a meddow of toilets.
That's the one about which I was thinking.
Pity it's just about impossible to show that episode now.
The Simpsons have released Season One on DVD.
Eventually it'll come out on DVD.
Yay!!! And thank gods I have a DVD player that'll read American DVD's! It saves me a fortune, despite bank charges whenever I order.
Yep, that region-encoding is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.
Then there was Bob Hope's crack about how there should be a bowl game in Flushing: The Tidy (sp) Bowl.
Har-de-har.
Shea would be the perfect place for it. The Tyde Bowl game live from Shea Stadium in Flushing NY Featuring Sam Houston Inst of Technology, and South Carolina University of Mineing
The question is, will the lower field boxes still move into football configuration? They've been set for baseball-only since the Jets left for Jersey after 1983.
I love that scene!
:-) Andrew
Or in the simpsons episode where homer is at the WTC facility waiting for the parking ticket guy to unlock his wheel guard, but he needs to pee really bad. He sees a bus for Flushing Meadows and he envisions a field of grass with flushing toilets. Then of course he goes into one of the WTC towers, takes a leak, and sees the parking guy giving Homer another ticket. Homer unleashes the biggest D'OH I've ever seen.
Sorry but I didn't read your articles before posting mine.
Hey, how about converting the Flushing Line to BMT/IND and running a P train over it? Sorry, couldn't resist...
I don't think a B-division car can handle some of the curves, after the platforms are altered to B-division.
It could. The problem is the Steinway Tubes.
I know this sounds radical, but could the Queens - Midtown tunnel be hi-jacked for Subway Service? I'm not actually serious about turning it into BMT, but some express tubes would be a nice touch! They would certainly help in my crazy expansion plan :) :) :)
Oh, please, no more P jokes.
David
OK, one rim shot just this once.
I would look at "strangest" name for a subway line a bit differently.
I always thought "Franklin-Nassau" was odd, if you know where the Franklin Avenue Line is and where the Nassau Street Line is. Unless you know how the service ran, you would never guess, especially since there were other "Nassau" services (Brighton-Nassau, Culver-Nassau) that make more sense.
Also, Culver Line. Won't find the name as a location on any map. There are other rail lines known as attached to a single individual (Stewart, Gunther) but the lines didn't retain the founder's name.
An out-of-towner might likewise wonder about other services that require local knowledge. The Lexington Avenue Subway and the Lexington Avenue el, the Broadway-Seventh Avenue Subway and the Broadway-Fourth Avenue Subway and the Broadway el, the Third Avenue el and the Third Avenue el.
What about the Sea Beach? After all, what is a "Sea Beach?" Is it different from any other salt water beach? It was named after a hotel, right?
After all, what is a "Sea Beach?" Is it different from any other salt water beach?
Bingo! On Long Island alone, I can think of at least one Lake Beach (on Lake Ronkonkoma) and some Bay Beaches (Tanner Beach).
But I don't know if that's why they chose "Sea Beach."
It is where the sea and the beach come together. Watch it young man, you are trudging into very hostile waters now.
Fred: What was so special about the Sea Beach? There are about six hundred beaches on Long Island and they are all "On the Sea."
Larry,RedbirdR33
But they do not go to Coney Island and they do not have the name and tradition of the Sea Beach. I know it was long ago but at one time when they wrote about the sites, sounds and smells of Brooklyn always the subway came into play. And more times than not they mentioned my train, not the others. I love the idea of an outside train in an open cut whooshing through small tunnels on it way to Coney Island. It ranks among my most cherished memories, and I'm convinced Larry babe that you are really trying to push my buttons.
Fred: Even if we limit this to discussion to Coney Island there were still four lines running to the beaches there and all those beaches were on the sea. I never heard of any beaches on Brooklyn's other great waterway, the Gowanus Canal.
BTW do you remember that great big elephant that used to be down at Coney? Would you know where it used to stand in relation to present day location?
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
Strangely I do not remember the big elephant. Why I do not know. I thought I had Coney Island down pat but it just goes to show that it is always possible for something to slip past you when your mind is on something else-----and when I was down at Coney it was certainly on something else, like the Tornado or that third roller coaster they had that I can never remember its name. The Cyclone I was terrified of until I rode it as a tourist. Now it is my all time favorite ride of all.
I knew Fred was becomming Senile
Come off it Booby, you don't know it was the Thunderbolt either. See I remember it now.
Fred, I think you're being teased over that elephant. It was gone before any of us, It used to be next to the Sea Beach Palace.
Thank you Paul. I thought someone was trying to put me on but I wasn't sure. It just seemed to me that when it came to Coney Island in my youth there just wasn't something that I wasn't aware of.
The closest one to CI was in the Prospect Pk Zoo, or maybe a Sea Elephant in the Aquarium at W 8thSt
I am not a Rollar VCoaster Fan, BTW lets us plan for the weekend of Oct 12, which is the wedding for the trip
That's a go if you can absolutely confirm it AND let me know how many days you will be in New York. October 12 is Columbus Day, and Dago Fred will be buying dinner than night. Good Lord, do you think we can get a bunch of guys on board to show up with us. What a hoot that would be.
Definate for the Wedding, if not I will shoot my niece, so Sunday would be good
Is it safe to assume the Bob and Fred Show is back on the air?:-)
An answer to a Prince's prayer. You've got your wish Steve. Fred and Bob are back in gear.
Can t wait until we get Steve with us
Yeah, we'll get thrown out of the subway for having too much fun.:-) I may wind up ROTFLMAO so much I may miss out on some of the railfan scenery.
I'm about to go to bed myself (night shaft) but wanted to just mention that I went to da chitty on Kissmoose and didn't get *ANY* "railfan experience" ... the foamer glass has been trashed by MYLAR so you can't see crap unless your idea of a foamer glass view is "light show by Radio Schlock" ... fortunately, got a wee bit of cab time, some "bust chops on conductor buddies while giving them the few moments of "duty time" at station stops, lots of wonderful kibbitzing with fellow foamers who turned up, and a sheetload of personal cab time experiences with a few people I worked out some details with along with their supervision and a "get out of transit cop jail free" letters presented by NYS Senate muckitymucks to give "Selkirk and Bingbong" the appropriate clearances ...
Got to have a WONDERFUL time as a guest of "The Larry" ... bottom line is, the "experience" has gone to Enron ... if ya come to ride the train today, you have to settle for the "TWU experience" rather than the "foamer experience" ... the BEST ride has always been "the stories" ... ranging from those of the "blind T/O" to the "OPTO whoopsie" ... if you're "TA meat" the SalaamAllah "middle window experience" PALES to "How I converted an QJ into a K train by using the anticlimbers" ... settle for the stories.
Just like in my time, a LOT of T/O's are near hitting the silk ... much as my own perverted stories (wish BigEdIRTManL were still with us with his own war stories but he ain't got a computer and ain't in a hurry to get one) can be some fun, there's a lot of old timers who can really turn a few divergings as to how the world in the hole used to be. I'd hate to think that my own damned short and bad experience with the "ta" under the Holy Ronan Empire once was ... I'm not even spongeworthy based on being TWU "short time meat" ... heh.
But count on the subway for what it was, and what it IS ... Nancy and I were lucky enough to get special treatment ... politically based (with "wuh-oh factor" amongst the adminisdroids ... got actual powered cab time in a 143 ... after 911, NOBODY gets into toyland and the options close around you like a chitty James Bomb movie ... as horizons restrict because the American people get punished for CIA failures, the railfan experience SHRINKS ... I was disallowed personally as a "known factor" in the TA from many things that were "de rigeur" before 911 ... wasn't even allowed into a tower at W4 even THOUGH I knew the people in there that day. Wasn't cleared. No admittance, bummer. And there was a guy on duty who KNEW me from 1971! No way. Bummer. At least they were kind enough to remove some "bay window restrictions" so we could at least look into the tower from the platform. But that's how paranoid things have gotten from a more "reasonable age" ...
The ride ain't the ride anymore, even with "special dispensation" as well as some TSS's willing to say "Yep, that signature is real, just please, stay out of the way" ... foamers don't get that. :)
Anyhoo, the proper sane basis for these days is ENJOY THE COMPANY OF THE FOLKS YOU RIDE WITH, SAVOR THE STORIES OF HOW THINGS ONCE WERE ... that's as good as it gets these days - the subway party is over - no cab rides, no handle pulling with buddies, no "lemme do this station" with conductor pals, TA ain't got no sense of humor. And that was BEFORE 911 ... only worse now. If you can't get your kicks trading war stories, then you can't dance and you ain't no fun. Such is the reality these days. No swapping the jumpseat with someone who knows you to do "cab time" anymore ... BUMMER.
Why don't you try and work out some time during the weekend of next October 12 to come down and join us. If we get the right group of guys together we will have a blast to outlast all blasts.
If we get the right group of guys together we will have a blast to outlast all blasts.
Particularly if I can find that stash of Confederate grape shot :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I saw the movie Gettysburg a couple of days back. Great movie, loved the ending because the good guys won.
As we go marching through Georgia.
I hope you don t sing that again when you come visit me again(but I agree with you_
And no more R-10s thundering and blazing along CPW anymore.:-( Ditto for the R-1/9s.
Not to worry, the Bob and Fred Show will entertain the whole subway train, and, besides, you can join and make it a threesome. In fact, we hope to ensnare a few others so we can really have old fashioned blast. The key is: When are you going to be there?
As it stands now, I am planning to fly in on Monday, Oct. 14 and head up to Connecticut on Friday the 18th.
My pal Brighton Express Bob says I'm going senile, but ask him who he asked about someone's handle, a handle a certain person forgot. Hint, I was the one asked. Guess who didn't remember his handle? And he says I'm the one getting senile.
Big Deal,I alway said I CRS
BTW do you remember that great big elephant that used to be down at Coney? Would you know where it used to stand in relation to present day location?
The elephant was right next to the Sea Beach Palace on the western side, which meant it was just to the east of West End Terminal. It was probably the future location of Luna Park, now Luna Park houses.
Which reminds me that the Elephant at Coney Island is often compared to "Lucy" the Elephant in Margate, NJ, from the same builder. But I've been inside that one, and its interesting, but apparently a pale sister of the Coney one.
"Lucy" is 65 feet tall, the one in Coney was 122 tall, which would have made it something like 6 to 8 times the mass. Lucy is rather cramped inside, the one in Coney was an actual hotel, with about 60 rooms.
The Sea Beach should be defunt, like the name of the Hotel it was named after
What would be a better name for the Sea Beach? I draw a blank. Brighton is a neighboorhood, Culver is a person, West End is a geographical description and 4th Ave. is a street.
I hardly ever draw a blank for anything.
"What would be a better name for the Sea Beach? I draw a blank. Brighton is a neighboorhood, Culver is a person, West End is a geographical description and 4th Ave. is a street.
I hardly ever draw a blank for anything."
I believe Culver was also the old name for McDonald Avenue, the street the Culver line runs down most of its elevated length.
I believe Culver was also the old name for McDonald Avenue, the street the Culver line runs down most of its elevated length.
AFAIK, it was never called Culver Av. Before being called McDonald Av, it was called Gravesend Av.
Part of Gravesend/MacDonald Avenue is one of the oldest streets in Kings County, dating back to Lady Moody's settlement of Gravesend. It shows on maps of the Battle of Long Island. Old Gravesend Village is at the junction of MacDonald/Gravesend Avenue and Gravesend Neck Rd.
I'm sure Mr. MacDonald was a great guy, but they shouldn't rename really old streets.
My grandfather worked in the court system back in the 30's, and he told me that McDonald Ave was named after a Judge as a political favor.
Back in the early part of the century naming streets after politicians was common.
In fact my grandfather told me that Mr. Cortelyou (don't know his firast name) was of great infuence in getting the Brighton line built in it's current configuration in the early part of the 20th century.
But was out of town when the open cut was being dug. When he came back, he was furious that there was not a station on Cortelyou Rd, (again named after him as a political favor). They then added Cortelyou Rd to the plans, which is why Cortelyou Rd is only one block from Beverly Rd on the Brighton line.
Hmmmm, just found this. You gotta wonder if it was the same person.
GEORGE B. MACDONALD CORTELYOU
Interesting. Martin Schachne told me that there was a "Colonel George Cortelyou" of a locally prominent family. He also said that the Colonel pronounced it "CORT-'l-you." I would say the Ditmas family was the most prominent in the immediate area.
Going back a little, the Lotts were probably the biggest noises. John Lott was a big booster of getting the Brighton Line through Flatbush and had the first loco named for him.
This person may have been related to the Cortelyous after whom the street (and station) were named, but he could have NOTHING to do with McDonald Avenue by sheer virtue of the fact that it's not MacDonald Avenue.
I've heard that McDonald Avenue was named for John B. McDonald of IRT fame. It does bewilder me however, that a street under a BMT line should be named for an IRT man; he must certainly have another claim to fame.
I know that Cortelyou founded New Utrecht, and there were certainly his descendants who were locally important. This part of Cortelyou Road was called Avenue C (or so I've heard) what was Cortelyou west of Coney Island Avenue called, if it was ever called anything different?
Cortelyou Road is one of the more interesting streets of pre-20th C. Flatbush, describing portions of three different roads, only one of which was apparently originally named Cortelyou.
The portion of Cortelyou Road from Flatbush Avenue to Coney Island Avenue appears to be one of the earlier mapped streets of Flatbush, called Turner Narrow Lane. This is a disappeared street west of CI Avenue to about current McDonald Avenue.
The western portion from Dahill Road to Coney Island Avenue is on a different alignment from Turner, to conform to the newly mapped streets, including Albemarle, Beverley, and the newer letter avenues.
Finally, the portion east of Flatbush was The Canarsie Road, or Canarsie Lane. I don't know what it looks like these days, but when I was a kid I used to ride my bike on it and marvel at its antiquated look, especially by Holy Cross.
Oh, and I feel like I left out part of the answer.
The sequence appears to be as follows:
1. Turner was changed to Avenue C, but only east of Coney Island Avenue. West portion maybe abandoned same time.
2. The portion from Dahill to CI Ave was mapped and plotted, and was called Cortelyou from Day One.
3. Portion from Coney Island to Flatbush changed to Cortelyou Road. Old station signs on surface Brighton said Avenue C. Station in cut said Cortelyou.
4. Canarsie Lane renamed to Cortelyou.
I might be out of sync somewhere there, but I think that's right
BTW, George Cortelyou was a secretary of the treasury under either McKinley or T. Roosevelt.
Fred: George Bruce Cortelyou was Secretary of the Treasury during Roosevelt's Teddy) second term from 1907-1909.
Larry,RedbirdR33
A historian, too. Well my friend, you have just gobbled a ton of my respect. Nice going. I wasn't exactly sure when but I was in the general area. Good to specifying the exact period. Now just get your ass to New York on the weekend of October 12 and join us for a real blowout.
Fred: My ass is in New York every day and believe me we democrats would love to get your republican ass up here in The Bronx. Selkirk and Stef can show you the way.
PS I like the new nickname for the Sea Beach aka Sea Ditch. I'll have to add it to my list.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Bronx will be on my itinarary but you, Stef, and Selkirk have got to promise me safe passage through the borough. BTW, if the Sea Beach was a woman would the name Sea Witch be appropriate, or would that be construed to be sexist? Sea Ditch? Well it is a cut and I think the TA takes that impression very seriously the way they have screwed my favorite line.
We are looking exactly for sunday the 13th of October, because I have a wedding in Westchester on the 12th. BTW Fred was in the Bronx with me on the 2 and 5 lines last August. Of course Fred did not look out the window much. Maybe we should stop by 161-River Ave, Fred s favorite place in the BX
Bob: You raise a good point. I'll have to find out when Branford is going to have their Autumn in New York Weekend. I would like to meet Fred very much but if it comes down to that or riding a Lo-V in Connecticut it could be a tough choice.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The choice is yours but a day with Fred and Me, is a once in a lifetime party
We'll have to take a group photo for sure. Anybody got a tripod?
Yes, but it's for ladies only. Got a Sachtler broadcast Teevee 'pod. Ikegami or Panasonic camera ... only used twice to show state legislators picking their noses on the NY-SCAN channel. :)
Selkirk: Is Ugly George still in business? Maybe we could get him to take the picture.
Larry,RedbirdR33
George Urbane was actually SIGHTED outside of Tiffany & Co with his backpack when we came down on Kissmoose ... having edited his show years ago at "Metro access" I walked up and said hello to him. He ignored me and Nancy entirely. Some things just never change and George is still lost in his own little world. After trying twice to get his attention away from his own cold stare by mentioning specifics that we really did know each other, continued walking on, shaking my head while he continued to stare off into space. No boobies for him. :)
Fred: Won't that be a sea bitch? Seriously though last year when they were ripping up the express track the Sea Beach did look like a trench from World War I. It's in much better shape now but the stations and the retaining walls need work. Also they tore down that huge gas tank out at Coney Island. It was a landmark for many years.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Uh, Fred, I am planning on flying into LGA on Monday, Oct. 14. I would be in the city until Friday the 18th. Any group railfanning will have to be done on a weekday if it's going to include me.
I was planning on getting in on Thursday and leaving Tuesday but I can alter that and come in Friday and leave late Wednesday. I certainly want to touch base with you and I'm sure Bob can make it, too. It would only cause him to change one day. Anyway, I am flexible and I'm told that Larry Redbird, Stef and maybe even joker Selkirk might join in. Wow!!! Can you imagine all of us together at one time. I think Mayor Bloomberg would proclaim a municipal emergency and make sure the cops watched every move we made.
Steve No way you can come in before the weekend?
Well, nothing is etched in stone and I haven't booked my plane ticket yet. I could conceivably fly in on Saturday the 12th if Sunday or Monday were more convenient to get together. It would mean six nights at the Larchmont instead of four. And if they still have 5 PM Mass at St. Francis Xavier Church on Saturday, I'd be set.
Saturday would be great, because we all can get together on Sunday AM, and I would not have to miss extra work which I can t afford
Sounds good. And this far in advance I should be able to get my wife's permission. Now if that happens to be Autumn in New York weekend at Branford, however... but that's OK, I can detour through the City and pick you up on my way :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I probably will be up with my wife and maybe my mother, because Saturday will be my niece's wedding, Sunday my wife can visit her cousin on York Ave, and I can have fun Thanks for the offer anyway
The only downer would be no Brighton express on Sunday. Oh well, you can't have everything. That said, the N runs local along 4th Ave. on Sundays, too.
We could always take the N up to DeKalb and take the q across, but how do we get from Coney island to 86th St, Fred and I have to go to Nathans for Lunch and he has to ride the Cyclone if it is still open
Sea Beach Fred and Myself plan to be in NYC the weekend of Oct 12, We are planning a Subway Jaunt on Sunday the 13th and maybe the 14th. This is not etched in stone. Hope some of you can make it, We plan to ride the Brighton and Slow Beach. Lunch at Nathans, Cyclone at CI if it is still open. Big Question, how do we get from 86th St to Coney Island without the N, beside walk to Stillwell and take the B
Best answer right now - wait until we know what shuttle buses will be running where. By Oct, only thw W should be running to Stillwell.
We may just have to take the West End one time and swallow hard. At least we won't have to argue about it since it neither of us considers it our favorite.
Coney Island's amusement area may very well be closed by October. I haven't seen any activity on the rides whenever I'd go down there that time of year.
I guess I will just have to ask my pal George W. to issue an Executive Order keeping Coney Island's Cyclone open until I leave town.
He was in Denver today, as a matter of fact. Even gave our governor and one of our seantors a lift to Salt Lake on Air Force One.
At least Nathans will be open. George W is George Washington, I did not know you spoke to the dead, or is it George Wallace???
I noticed you had to mention your pal George Wallace. Oh by the way, your sheets are ready.
He is more conserative then Ronnie
Yeah, while you're on the horn with that deadbeat, tell him he still owes us money for 911. You can bring the check with ya. :)
I won't be booking my plane ticket until summer, probably late June, so if your rendezvous is still on by then, I will plan on flying in on Saturday the 12th.
Hey, Fred, do you have a Brooklyn Dodgers baseball cap? I have a well-worn Mets cap.
Fred will wear his N T shirt and Sea Beach Fred Cap. Check Web Sites to NYC from DEN on Jet Blue, ATA or Frontier they seem to have the best rates, since Southwest goes to Hartford or Islip it is too far. A Saturday Flight sounds good so we can all get together on Sunday, and possibbly Monday
The Cyclone is an absolute must------front car of course.
I don't think the Cyclone will be open past Columbus Day if experience is anything.
#3 West End Jeff
You're probably right. Astroland has been open daily until Labor Day and then open on the rest of the September weekends.
Hey Gary, I expect you and Jeff to start planning ahead, too. I would like nothing better than to have you join us for a rousing few days-------that is, if you can swing it. After all, you organized our railfanning my last trip to New York, and you must admit we had a hell of a good time.
We can be there on a Saturday night or anytime on Sunday. Does anybody have any solid ideas of what to do and where to go?
Once we get a good idea of who actually is going to show up, we will start putting things together. I have a few ideas of my own and so does Bob and Steve. First, however, we must all get in sinc and know just who is going to show up.
[Does anybody have any solid ideas of what to do and where to go?]
You'll need a F-U-N pass to enjoy it properly ;-)
I would suggest: L leaving Manhattan; Brighton Q expresss; Flushing Line Express (if they still have Red Birds); F over the Gowanus; ride across Jamaica Bay; and of course we'll have to fit in Sea Beach somewhere. Just some ideas to pick from.
Mr rt__:^)
It would be good if some New Yorker who is on the scene permanently make a tentative plan. I'm a tourist but I'm flexible enough. The only thing I would really want is for the Cyclone to be open so I could ride it. Other than that I'm open to all suggestions. How about a walk on the Polo Grounds shuttle? I hear that is interesting.
The Main Day is Sunday so the Q Exp will not be running
And the N will be running local in Brooklyn. The BMT standards, if they were still around, would be carrying "Sea B'ch L'c'l" signs.
Thank God I wasn't around when the Standards were used on the Sea Beach and it was a local. Yuk, that would have really been a bummer. The one thing I have never figured out is why they switched the D's and Standards between the West End and the Sea Beach.
There never was a Sea Beach local per se. The 4th Ave. express tracks lead directly to the Sea Beach line. The BMT standards had route signs for all possible combinations, a feature the R-1/9s also had.
One possible explanation for the equipment swap you speak of may have been a desire to keep the Triplexes off the bridge.
The Sunday Coney Island Express Specials from Nassau St., via the Sea Beach express tracks and Brighton express tracks to Fulton St--Franklin Av. were probably Standards. You keep saying how you disliked the standards, but they were probably the mainstay of the line you so sorely miss.
Not in my day Q. From 1947 to 1954, the years I rode the Sea Beach as a New Yorker, the only train on that line was the D Triplex #4. There were no Standards on that line at any time I can remember during that period. They were the exclusive part of the 4th Avenue Local #2BMT, and were used on the Brighton Local #1BMT. When the Standards were put back on the Sea Beach in 1963 I was long gone from the Big City.
Fred, hello, wake up! I'm not talking about your #4. I'm talking about the Sunday specials that used the express tracks between 59th St. and Coney Island.
I'm awake, but if you're talking about that period from 1949 on, I did see trains use the Sea Beach express tracks but I never saw a standard used. If they did run that route it escaped me. All I saw on the Sea Beach, I repeat, were Triplexes.
Did you see Triplexes running on the express tracks on weekends only? If so, those were Coney Island Expresses.
The D s were replaced by the New R 32s on tyhe Q and N that is why the Triplex went to the West End as far as people told me
There are several theories about how the Triplexes wound up on the West End. One was the TA wanted them off the bridge. Another was since the West End was a part-time service by then, they would assign the oldest equipment to it.
The Cyclone will probably be closed, and the Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel is sealed closed.
How about a walk on the Polo Grounds shuttle? I hear that is interesting.
It is, but not nearly as interesting as it was before they sealed the tunnel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Talk about throwing cold water on something, that took the cake. However, I didn't know that tunnel was sealed shut. I had read of a trip there two years ago and thought it still might be open. But the Cyclone closed, too. What an insult. Don't they know Sea Beach Fred is coming to town. What kind of pikers are they anyway. Anybody know Bloomberg? Maybe he can cut some slack for a fellow Republican and open it up just for us.
The Polo Grounds shuttle was re-sealed because of vagrants starting fires:
Good evening.
Let me first say that I truly enjoyed the story behind and pictures of the Polo Ground Shuttle. This morning I, along with other members of the Mayor's Office, led City agencies into both ends of the de facto 9th Avenue subway (Anderson-Jerome & Sedgwick Avenues) in an attempt to strategize a clean up.
The situation at this site was brought to my attention by an FDNY Battalion Chief during the September District Service Cabinet meeting of Bronx Comunity Board 4.
I was informed by FDNY that they have responded to numerous fires set by homeless and vandals in the past couple of years, most recently this summer. Yes, we did find hundreds of tires and car shells amidst other debris mostly at the Anderson-Jerome end. If you want to know how we all got up to the Anderson-Jerome station, we had FDNY lift us with their Ladder truck above the white awning-business building where there is a gate that opens up.
It is in our interest to clean up both ends of the tunnel, remove the car shells and all, and seal completely the tunnel to prevent vagrants and pyromaniacs from entering and wreaking havoc.
Thank you for the story behind this station/tunnel.
Lee Anthony Nieves
Director, Bronx Unit-CAU
Mayor's Office
212-788-7458
The only way you can virtually walk through the tunnel now is on my video.
Here's the Polo Grounds Shuttle trip report.
--Mark
I ask for a snack and I get a ten course banquet. Thanks Mark for your interest and consideration. I enjoyed it so much I bookmarked it so I can see it any time I want. Maybe I'll touch base with you when I get to New York. Much obliged.
Mark is a Brighton Man, Maybe he will shoot a Video of you on what s left of the Slow Boat Local
Bob: I like that one "Slow Boat Local". I will add it to the list.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Really Larry? You really like that? That means two things to me. One, you have a lot of time on your hands, and you're easy to please with simple and corny jokes. Nothing to be ashamed of but certainly nothing to write home about either----that is, if you're girlfriend isn't round filing all your letters. If you writing is as boring as my buddy Bob I'm surprised you ever got to first base in the first place.
Fred: I guess that you were never on a cattle ranch in South Dakota or you would know what it means to really step in it. You have lambasted the Brighton Boys for a long time and then as if you don't have enough on your plate you take pot-shots at The Bronx and the IRT.
If you haven't realized it by now we have been working you in tandem. I've been quiet these past few days but I noticed that the Brighton Boys have picked up the slack. The last thing you want to do when you're on a sinking ship is make an enemy of the guy who runs the lifeboats.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Right O Larry and I am very aware of the plot. But as I say again, if that is your idea of a good laugh you've been sitting on a pile of rocks in Zeke Hardy's cow pasture for too long. If you really want a laugh, go to Vegas and catch Don Rickles. As for the lifeboats I still expect you to give them to me despite all. You wouldn't begrudge your old Sea Beach buddy, now would you?
Fred: Its all a matter of perception old buddy. Many people will tell you that the Titanic was a great ship. Well great ships don't sink. Now about the iceberg, that was a great iceberg. I like what you have to say about Abe Lincoln. In my view he was one of the two greatest politicians of all time. If you want to know who the other one is e-mail me. If I give out his name on sub-talk it would start a war that would make Hiroshima look like a firecracker.
Best Wishes and I look forward to seeing you in October along with the Great Pumpkin.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Slow Boat, hmm..nice but not entirely accurate. Slow Beach is much, much better, and still the most approriate name for Fred's favorite line.
ROTFLMAO
Your jokes are getting about as corny as your personality. Come up with some new material. It sounds to me that you;ve been riding the Dumbton too long and forgot to get off somewhere.
Laurel & Hardy
Abbott & Costello
Hudson & Landry
Rowan & Martin
Bob & Fred?
Hey!
You left out Stiller & Meara!
Sorry about that.
And now for something completely different. Two Triplexes colliding on the Sea Beach.
It happened in June, 1955 at Stillwell Avenue. I read about it in the old LA Examiner. It said two trains on the #4 line collided near Coney Island. It got my attention right away because they were talking about my beloved Sea Beach.
6045 and 6078 got crunched. Well, portions of them did, anyway. They took 6078C and grafted it onto 6045A and B, renumbering it 6045C in the process. The equivalent of one Triplex unit was scrapped.
Supposedly, that collision registered 4 to 4.5 on the Richter Scale. Some thought there had been a sonic boom.:-)
Suggestion for Sunday Trip. From Midtown, N to 86th, walk to W or F what ever is closer, to Stillwell, Lunch, Coney island. Q to Prospect Park, Franklin Shuttle, A to Far Rockaway and return to City
That is a go. Sounds great to me. Do you have a timeline on how long all that will take? Can we get from Rockaway back to Little Italy for a good Dago dinner?
Hey Fred, ever been to Taormina's on Mulberry St? Nice place.
Yes I have and I like it very much. That could our place for a good repast. I always ask if they have dishes without onions. I hate onions and at Taormina's they have most dishes without them---Thank God!!!
Great. Let's plan on going there then, if there are no objections.
None from me and none from Bob since I will probably be treating him since he was so hospitable last summer.
Sometimes the Cyclone will be open until the Columbus Day weekend if the weather holds, but I would check to be sure.
#3 West End Jeff
It will be better with me, then you can the Bob and Fred Show in person
And be sure to be wearing Depends.:-)
Here is a picture of the Avenue C station in 1901.
Nice picture, but rather high opening bid, seeing as it's a copy.
I agree, that's what's stopping me from bidding on it.
>>>Finally, the portion east of Flatbush was The Canarsie Road, or Canarsie Lane. I don't know what it looks
like these days, but when I was a kid I used to ride my bike on it and marvel at its antiquated look,
especially by Holy Cross.<<<
Canarsie Lane extends for a block east of Holy Cross Cemetery at Schenectady Avenue, and also passes in front of the old Peter Claesen Wyckoff House at Clarendon and Ralph Avenue. You can see this section of Canarsie Lane, as well as an 1890s Brooklyn Eagle map, right here at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/Canarsie%20lanes/canarsie.html
Affirmative. It is the same guy.
I know Avenue C was renamed Cortelyou Road in the time frame of the GC Elimination. However, the station there was almost certainly continuous, since Avenue C was a major street with a station and a trolley line and a switch onto the surface Brighton Line.
It is Beverley Road which is the addition, most probably added to satisfy the builders of Prospect Park South and not make those very upscale people walk the extra long block to Cortelyou.
There was also a station style sign "Prospect Park South" at Albemarle Road, probably 1900-1907, but I hve no indication that this was a station. Possibly the fathers of PPS pursuaded the BRT to make a whistle stop there for trains of potential homebuyers.
What exactly was "GC Elimination"?
- Lyle Goldman
"Grade Crossing" ... pesky locations where cars play chicken with trains. And the train always wins.
Sounds Like the LAQMTA Blue Line and MetroLink Santa Clarita Line in Sylmar
Did the Brighton Line ever have grade crossings north of Sheepshead Bay? If so, when were they eliminated, and when were the stations on the Brighton Line as we know them today built?
- Lyle Goldman
Indeed, the Brighton had grade crossings all the way to Culver Depot. The 1905-1908 project eliminated the crossings around Park Place and from Church Avenue to Sheepshead Bay, but the Brighton Line returned to the surface just after crossing Neptune Avenue and ran on the surface to Brighton Beach and Culver Depot.
Service to Culver Depot ended in 1916 and service terminated temporarily at Sheepshead Bay. Trackage was left in place to reach Brighton Beach on the surface for a while but I'm unclear as to whether any passenger trains operated regular service on it. This was the last surface operation on the Brighton Line.
There was a GC elimination project undertaken in Denver and completed perhaps two years ago. All grade crossings along Santa Fe Drive (US 85) were eliminated from County Line Road, on the Douglas-Arapahoe County line, to Kalamath St., a distance of roughly 10 miles. It took close to 20 years to get it done. I can remember having to wait at a grade crossing many a time for a long coal train to pass. Most intersecting streets were depressed beneath the tracks while in Littleton, the tracks themselves were depressed and placed in an open cut. The Southwest light rail line uses this corridor, and trains zip along at 55 mph.
I don't think any of ours will be going away for quite some time. But here at least, they have enough sense to have a DINER right at the grade crossing. You can have a seven course dinner by the time the train's done going by. :)
What exactly was "GC Elimination"?
You put your punctuation INSIDE your quotes.
Anyway, it's what Jacqueline Kennedy prevented.
What exactly was "GC Elimination"?
You put your punctuation INSIDE your quotes.
Not necessarily. Small punctuation like periods and commas go inside the quotes. Tall punctuation like queries, bangs, colons and semis have some discretion to them, based on the sense of the sentence. In this case Lyle is justified in the placement of his marks. On the other hand the complete sentence: "What was that?" would have properly have the mark inside the quotes.
The baseline reason for placing small punctuation inside the marks is to avoid having the period or comma float outside the sentence, as in "Go away, Bozo". This was important in faces where quotation marks tended to be small and where kerning was not possible, as in text faces in hand type or linotype.
Furthermore, in British English, it is conventional to put all puntuation outside quotes, even commas and full stops. However, this usage is diminishing, although I deliberately and gratuitously use it!
Also, I have noticed that many Brits tend to leave out full stops (or periods, as we call them here in the States) after certain abbreviations that require them. For example, they write "Mr" instead of "Mr.," "Mrs" instead of "Mrs.," "Ltd" instead of "Ltd.," and "etc" instead of "etc." You don't do that, James, do you?
- Lyle Goldman
I'm sure Mr. MacDonald was a great guy, but they shouldn't rename really old streets.
Perhaps if you feel that sentiment strongly enough, you should bombard the politicos with mail trying to get it changed back.
I don't really know how people who react to an attempt to change it back. 30 or 40 years ago I'm sure people would have said "no way." They wouldn't want a street newly (as far as they were concerned) named something grim sounding like gravesend.
Now, who knows? People are more antiquity minded--plus they're more willing to accept even stupid-sounding names like "Dumbo" for places they live.
Yeah well I just think Gravesend is a nice name anyway - reminds me of an obscure town in Kent where something happened in the 16th Century, if only I had taken an interest in mediaeval history. This is probably a very controversial thing to say, but would the current political climate allow restoring names to streets which are now mere numbers. It is probably my transatlantic attitudes, but I find Bliss a lot more memorable than 33rd (or is it 34th) or whatever it is.
Gravesend was the only English chartered town in what became Kings County and yes, it was named for Gravesend, England.
I think there'd be a lot of sympathy for restoring street names to numbered streets, but I'm the authorities would resist it. The Queens street numbering systemis just dreadful, IMO.
While we're at it let get Malbone Street back!
While we're at it let get Malbone Street back!
Yeah, and I'll come and visit you in New Amsterdam.
That's because the Sea Beach name is too marvelous for words. Besides, we Sea Beach fans like the name as is. You Brighton, Culver and IND fans, BUTT OUT!!!!!!
Hmmmm. You didn't say anything about West End fans.:-)
Jeff Alterman is Mr. West End and he is a good friend. He usually backs me up where the Sea Beach is concerned, so he can have at it when he wants to make a critical comment about my train because I know he will be fair and impartial about it.
Still as far as I know there are 3 Subway/Rail Lines in the world to Brighton Beach(England, Melbourne Australia, and Brooklyn) who else would name a line sea Beach when there is np place named Sea Beach. Most beaches are on the Sea
The Sea Beach is one of a kind; you ought to know that by now. Hell Brighton is so common it takes on the role of a woman who has changed her face ten times in a lifetime because she can't make up her mind.
Hell Brighton is so common it takes on the role of a woman who has changed her face ten times in a lifetime because she can't make up her mind.
The Sea Beach. What a ditch!
Notch one up big guy, that was one hell of an observation.
Sea Beach is in a ditch, waiting from a train is a Son of a B*tch
I don't think you're a threat to William Blake or Percy Shelley with that one.
OK by gum, THAT DID IT ... The Brighton may have had more face lifts than Phyllis Diller, but it's STILL prettier than ... what was that? The SEA HAG? Heh. Insult MY train? Dammit! :)
Yo ... howzzit hanging? Nyuknyuknyuk ...
Neener-neener.:-)
Selkirk you have to join us on Sunday Oct 13, Just to quiet Fred down, he talks to everybody
The English Brighton station is called just Brighton, not Brighton Beach. The station is about a mile inland from the beach. Brighton is where I grew up -- it was one of the first real seaside resorts, so I guess the others got named after it.
There is also a New Brighton near Liverpool, which has a station on the Liverpool suburban rail system.
Well, properly the BMT line is the Brighton Beach Line, but it's commonly called the Brighton Line, just like the one in England. I know the English one is the Brighton Line because it was mentioned in Oscar Wilde's The Importance of Being Earnest:
LADY BRACKNELL: In what locality did this Mr James, or Thomas, Cardew come across this ordinary hand-bag?
JACK: In the cloak room at Victoria Station. it was given to him in mistake for his own.
LADY BRACKNELL: The cloak-room at Victoria Station?
JACK: Yes. The Brighton line.
Read SubTalk. Get Culture.
Absolutely true. Strictly the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway; the quote from Oscar Wilde reflects the fact that the Victoria terminus is really two stations side by side, the other one being the London, Chatham and Dover Railway, later the South Eastern and Chatham, and both parts of the station originally had their own cloakrooms.
Later on, the two became respectively the Central division and the Southeastern division of the Southern Railway, and then the same divisions of the Southern Region of British Rail. On privatisation, both the "South Cenrtal" and "Southeastern" franchises were won by the French company Connex, but its performance has been so poor that it has lost the South Central one (the Brighton line), which is now called just South Central. The other one is still "Connex Southeastern".
Ah, even more culture!
No matter how bad Privatisation may be, it keeps things interesting. :)
When I was in LOndon Last May Simon Billis to a picture of me on the Train under a sign that said Brighton Express with a sailboat emblem
Did you have a numeral 1 with you?:-)
No. I can t remember where I left the picture on the computer either.
Brighton Beach was named the same time as the railroad reached it. Culver, as you said, was a person. I'm not sure why they renamed the BB&CI "West End," except maybe because it had the westernmost main terminal on Coney Island. But the Culver ran much further west.
There were a number of notable features of the Sea Beach. Like the Brighton, it had its own private right-of-way and it offered the overall fastest route to Coney Island, connecting to its ferries at the Bay Ridge end. It was home to the Coney Island Express, steam and electric. More than any of the other lines, Coney Island was its raison d'etre.
But none of these suggests a name for the road. Maybe "Sea Beach" is the most appropriate.
Thanks Paul. Now maybe those ying yangs from the Culver, Brighton, and others will now clam up. Then again, some people never get the message.
did anyone name foggy bottom in the d.c. system?
Yeah. That name has been around since colonial times, although I am not sure of the origin. It isn't very foggy anymore, that is for sure. My guess is that it once was quite foggy and it is very low in terms of elevation. If you bike down to K Street under the Whitehurst Freeway, there is only one way to go: UP!
I am now being told it came from a swamp that used to be in the area. Can someone confirm one of these theories?
Most of DC is built on a swamp. Now the swamp creatures are above ground running DC and this country. : )
Foggy Bottom was a Foggy Swamp, and Mosquito Malaria Base back 100 + years ago
It's great to have back on Subtalk Bob even though your posts are horse dung.
Now I can resume ROTFLMAO when you two banter like that.:-)
Wait until we are together in Person in NY the weekend of Oct 12
As I told Fred, I will be flying in on Monday the 14th. Hopefully you can extend your visit so we can all connect.
It depends on my wife, I can get the time off, but she may not
I can adjust my itinerary, too, if needed.
But now it seems that the West End is the line that makes most of the movies on the Southern Division. Culver and Sea Beach do not get in very often.
Paul: How about the 2 Avenue El running on 1 Avenue and the 5 Avenue El running on 3 Avenue. Then to we have the Broadway Subway running on 7 Avenue and the 7 Avenue Subway running on Broadway.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Or the 8th Ave. line running along Broadway for a spell, then later along 6th Ave.
How about....
In London - The Bakerloo Line and the Jubilee Line
Picadilly
In London - The Bakerloo Line and the Jubilee Line
Don't forget the Waterloo & City Line, euphemistically known as "the Drain".
"Jamaica Center as E and J Train to Jamaica Island"
To bad the weather in NY wasn't a tropical one.
Tsung Mun Line or Wan Chi Station in Hong Kong or do we not consider Asian Lines
Why are these strange names? Do they mean something strange in Chinese?
Strange to us. Familiar to Cantoneese speakers
These are the names of famous chinese actress.
>>>Asian Lines<<<< Would be J M N Q R W Z 6 in canal street Chinatown.
#7 Train to Cancoon, Mexico
That where majority of Mexican Riders were heading.
Long Beach ....Blue Line...
the highest ridership of any Los Angeles M.T.A. rail line
But which one is it ??
Long Beach Blue line?
or
Blue Line ??
it is called both here !!
....................................lol..!!
Knickerbocker Avenue On the M line
What the heck is a knickerbocker? Now I know where the knicks got their name
Knickerbocker refers to the early Dutch settlers of Manhattan Island.
Knickerbocker comes from Washington Irving character in one of his stories Father Knickbocker around 1870
How about Kosciuszko St on the J? How is it even pronounced?!?
The same way as the bridge of the same name that carries the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway over the borough line.... :)
But seriously, I've eard 2 accepted pronunciations for it (the name of a Polish army official who helped out in the Revolutionary war)
Koss-Chee-Oo-Sko
and
Koss-Chiss-Ko
Thaddeus Kosciusko was a Polish national who fought alongside our troops in the Revolutionary War. Later he became the inventor of mustard.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There is more to Father Knickerbocker than what you say. About 110 years ago, Father Knickerbocker was a character who symbolized New York City in human character form. He was very similar to the character Uncle Sam. His character would be a point of NYC pride. Father Knickerbocker was used often for newpaper editorial cartoons to symbolize New York City just as Uncle Sam is used to characterize the American people or the USA.
the los angeles red line ....the subway 2 nowhere...!!
"the los angeles red line ....the subway 2 nowhere...!!"
You say this over and over again. And yet over 100,000 people ride the LA Red Line every day.
http://www.apta.com/stats/ridershp/riderep/01q3rep.pdf
I think Toronto's two lines, Bloor-Danforth and Yonge-Spandina hbave pretty strange names.
Mark
You want a strange name for a rail transit system - there's something called FART in Switzerland.
And of course, after riding FART a few too many times, it's only proper manners to take a ride on the FLUSHING line :-)
Or lay off the beans.:-)
I notice a steel wedge at one of the far sides of the Flushing-bound 7 platform on Vernon-Jackson Station (or was it Hunters Point, correct me if I'm wrong). What is it for?
Saturday Night, 7:30 PM unless otherwise specified in the subjectBusTalkers are also welcome!
Chatham Square is a unique oppurtunity to hold LIVE chats with other siderodromophiliacs (railfans) and busfans. Everyone is welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun-filled evening.
ARE YOU READY FOR CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in. IRC users, connect to channel #subtalklive on the DALNET network (http://www.dal.net for more information).
WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
Saturday Night, 7:30 PM unless otherwise specified in the subjectBusTalkers are also welcome!
Chatham Square is a unique oppurtunity to hold LIVE chats with other siderodromophiliacs (railfans) and busfans. Everyone is welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun-filled evening.
ARE YOU READY FOR CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in. IRC users, connect to channel #chathamsquare on the DALNET network (http://www.dal.net for more information).
WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
We are witnesses to history.
No big deal, next year on March 3rd it will be "03" etc.
yes, but it won't be oh three, oh three, three oh, oh three for another 1001 years.
02/02/2002 - not even very pretty. If you're trying for the palindrome effect, it's 2/02/02.
On my old job, I was in one respect sorry the old data entry computers (before we switched to the Y2K Windows based systems in Fall, '99), were gone, because it would be very easy to key in 020202. But this was before I realized it would fall on a Saturday. 01-01-01 was a holiday, of course. On both that day, as well as the infamous 01-01-00, I ran to the local Metrocard reader to see the date. I'll have to look and see if 03-03-03 is a weekday or not. But of course, the new computers my former co-workers use uses 4 digit year. 11-11-99 was a holiday, and by 11-19-99 (111999) and 11-22-99 the new system was in. Typing in hundreds of court papers with 6 different digits could become tiring, so I was looking forward to those double numbers.
Actually, you’re all wrong. The American date ordering of M/D/Y is:
a) confusing to the rest of the world
b) difficult to sort.
Changing the order to D/M/Y, we have:
a) a forthcoming opportunity on 20/02/2002
b) another one one 30/03/2003
c) noticed we missed one on 10/01/2001
John
I think you're missing the definition of palindrome. Those should be 30/02/2003 and 10/02/2001
Don't hold your breath waiting for 30/02/2003. 2003 is not a double leap year.
I'll wait for "Oh three, oh three, oh three!'
Nothing can hold a candle to metric time, but as far as this silly 365/12 system goes, Y-M-D (from ISO standard 8601) notation is superior.
Mark
Remember when on "The Simpsons" they had Metric Time?
Should Metric time in Springfield have EIGHT hours a day?
"The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead, and that’s the way I likes it!"
40 rods to the hogshead: might want to consider mass transit, Abe.
Mark
ha! ha!
Try measuring a subway platform in rods and chains. Conversion from fractional inches to decimal inches is even crazier. I'm not sure of how many 'stones' I weigh. CI Peter
My high school physics teacher was always fond of 'furlongs per fortnight'.
and of course certan bridges are measured in "smoots"
Just one that I know of. I cross it a few times per week. For those that don't know the story, here it is.
Todd, thanks for the detail. In a small handicap project a decade back we used an odd length in order to get the grade right. We referred to it (inaccurately as it was 66") as a smoot while doing the work.
>>>I'm not sure of how many 'stones' I weigh. CI Peter <<<
Divide your weight in lbs by 14; a stone is 14 lbs.
I'm glad we incorrigible Americans have resisted every attempt to foist metric on us...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm stoned 12X. Metric does have its advantages for accuracy but things like wire gauges just don't fit. CI Peter
I had to use metric time when working on the time cards; 1/10 of a hour = 6 minutes, 3/10 = 18 minutes.
Another type of metric time I first saw when working the Census was using ".5" instead of ":30" and ".25" instead of ":15", etc. Nice idea, but I wish it was taken further.
In astronomical calculations, where hours, days, weeks, etc. are irrevelant, they use a metric time based on the second (microseconds, kiloseconds, etc). But this doesn't seem totally metric because it is still based on the old non-metric unit (seconds). In all the other metric scales they did away with the old units (inches, pounds, cups, Farenheit scale, etc). Just like the Centigrade (Celsius) scale is still based on the freezing and boiling of water, but divides it neatly into 100 (Kelvin is the same scale but based on absolute zero), we could divide the day--the most obvious unit of time into 100,000 parts. I choose this power of ten because it is closest to the 86,400 seconds that make up a day. So you wound have a new unit that is close to a second, but a bit smaller. You could call it a "centimilliday". Then for non-earthly measurements, you could take the same unit and make it the base for a universal scale as Kelvin is.
This wouldn't resolve the problems of the other earthly units, such as months and years which are based on physical cycles which would have to be ignored if you used powers of 10 for days (too disruptive). The week could easily be changed to 10 days, but too many of us believe God instituted the 7 day week, so we don't want to mess with that. But a metric second would be nice. A deciday would be 2.4 hours (144 min), a centiday would be 14 minutes and 24 seconds, and a milliday would be 1 minute and 26.4 seconds. The next smallest unit would be about 8½ seconds, and then the base unit. The metric hour would be a semideciday, at 72 minutes. Short terms (sem, dec, etc) could be used for these units. With this system, you could completely decimalize time.
Looking at how the US never even switched completely to the other metric units as we were supposed to, nobody would probably be interested.
Just to get picky, please note that in what we call a "day" the earth actually makes 1+1/365 rotations around its axis (we don't perceive the extra fraction because we're also revolving around the sun).
So shouldn't a "metric" day be the time for a real rotation, not the perceived one?
The way I see it, there are two fundamental units of time, those related to rotation (the day) and revolution (the year.) From a purely scientific point of view, there's not much sense in trying to squeeze one neatly into the other, because they're distinct and variable measurements. People being the kinds of creatures we are, though, perceive only the passage of time, and any measurement system so radical as to isolate days from years is doomed. We can only hope for a better system, not the best system. It's not a perfect world.
Moving back on track: we'll see a full-length four-track Second Avenue subway long before we see time measurement reform.
Mark
The whole reason time is done the way it is (base 60) is because 60 is divisable. For thousands of years, astronomers used a base 60 counting system for exactly the same reason. Base 10, when you think about it, is not a very useful base as it is only divisable by 2 and 5. 60 is divisable by 2,3,4,5,6,10,12,20,30 and probably several others. This is why, in a non-decimal, non-calculator world base 60 was so ideal. Yes I know we all have our Texas Instruments graphing calculators, but there is not reason we should chain ourselves to them.
>>> 60 is divisable by 2,3,4,5,6,10,12,20,30 <<<
I think you are a little off there Mike. It is not the total numbers that 60 can be divided into, since then a base of 600, or 6,000 would be better. What has to be counted is the number of prime numbers which in base 10 are two, and base 60 are three. 60º in a circle is more likely to have developed from the same base 12 calculations as 12 inches in a foot.
Tom
That's why I don't propose a metric angle measurement (100 0r 100 degress instead of 360). Because so many common polygon angles and other geometric shapes use multiples of three that will go into 360. (You could make a right angle 25º or 250º, but then the 60º of an equilateral triangle will wind still wind up a 6th, and not go neatly into a power of 10) But to divide a day we really don't need multiples of three because time is one dimensional anyway.
Now, if we were to change the base to 3 or 60, then those numbers would become "10", and their powers "100", "1000", etc., and be as easy to multiply as the decimal system. But that would be a really drastic change. A true base 60 would need 50 more single digit numbers before you reach "10". In base 3, you would throw out the numerals 3-9, and the numbers of digits would increase rapidly. (just like binary--base 3). In any new base system, we would have to relearn all of arithmetic, so it's easier to switch measurements to the decimal system.
SI already has a unit for the measure of planar angles. Hint: it's not degrees. No serious modern scientific application uses degrees.
Grade, on the other hand, is measured as a ratio and is easily expressed in handy-dandy base 10. (Can you blame me for trying to drag this mess I've created back on topic?)
You've hit on one of my biggest pet peeves with sexagesimal measurements: we represent base-60 place "digits" in decimal, so manipulating quantities is trivial but unnecessarily time-consuming. And many people don't understand what's going on, so the process can range from being error-prone to intractable.
12 28..31 24 60 60. Intuitive, no?
Mark
SI already has a unit for the measure of planar angles. Hint: it's not degrees. No serious modern scientific application uses degrees.
Sure, radians are great for scientists and mathematicians, but the average dumbass isn't going to express things as a multiple of Pi.
I think the unit he's talking about is the grad. Radians are not SI.
Dan
I think the unit he's talking about is the grad. Radians are not SI.
Sure they are.
Mark
What's SI?
By grade being measured as a ratio, are you talking about the percentages (vertical being 100%, 45º bring 50%, the highest grade the trains can take is something like 5%, etc)? I forgot about that. I only knew of it from transit talk (such as the specifications for the Rutgers-DeKalb connection)
What's SI?
Metric, or properly, the International System of Units. The French got their way, so it's «Système Internationale d'Unites.»
By grade being measured as a ratio, are you talking about the percentages (vertical being 100%, 45º bring 50%, the highest grade the trains can take is something like 5%, etc)?
Almost. Grade is the "rise-to-run" ratio, or the tangent. Horizontal is 0 (no "rise",) 45º is 1 (100%, "rise" and "run" are equal,) and since there's no "run," vertical is infinity (or undefined, depending on your perspective.) The relationship between grade and angle is not linear.
Mark
There is a system which divides circles into units of 100: Gradians. Gradians make a right angle into 100 Gradians and a circle is 400 Gradians.
Oh, I had heard of gradians, but never knew what it was, and never knew there was such a system (a part of math that escaped me).
Your stealing your idea from the First Republic in France.
but too many of us believe God instituted the 7 day week, so we don't want to mess with that.
That's not a good excuse. The Catholics and Protestants get to have their religious calendar be the same as the civil calendar. No other religion has that luxury, there is no reason why religion should be the only barrier in developing a different calendar system. Obviously the cost of conversion is the primary problem.
Besides, I don't think that everyone who believes in God actually believes in the Story of Creation. A lot of people believe in the theories of the Big Bang and of Evolution and at the same time believe in some sort of diety (or dieties).
There are 7 days in the week because there are 7 planets (wanderers in latin). Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were not known until the 18th and 19th centuries and 1930 respectively. The Earth doesn't count, and the Sun and Moon do.
The Egyptians briefly used a 10-day week before moving to a system in which every day of a 7-day week would be named for the same planet which is holy to the first hour. Since under the Geocentric Theory the planets are in the order (from outside to the inside): Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon. With 24 hours, the days would be arranged in the following order: Saturn, Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus. As time passed, the first day became the Day of the Sun. We still have a Sun Day, Moon Day and Saturn Day, but the other days are named for the equivalent Norse gods (Tiu, Woden/Odin, Thor and Frigga).
I think that we should keep the 7 day week simply because it seems so good a balancing the labour/liesure tradeoff. If you were to change it either workers would complain for having to work more or employers would complain for having to work more. It would also require the re-writing of many different day/week-specific laws.
BTW, I think that Islam also uses a 7-day calendar w/ their holy day occuring on Friday. That is probably about half of the world's population preferring a 7 day week.
True, I wondered how we would intersperse the days off in a 10 day system. It would be very irregular, as we coulnd't put them all together, because that would be too much time with most business shut down, (and no expresses on some lines, to keep us near topic). It seems the 7 day week works best for us, and this is seen as an evidence for divine authorship. I know not everyone believes in this, but there are enough in the world to seriously oppose a change. (The ancients looked upon the 7 heavenly bodies as symbolic of all creation, and here is how they were inspired to postulate the Creation story).
We also must realize that this is a prime example of the "lock-in" effect (like clocks that move around clockwise, QWERTY keyboards, VHS video tapes, 60Hz electricity) etc. The cost of changing the system would probably not exceed the future benifits discounted over an infinite time horizon. Anyway, I don't see any inherent problems w/ a 7 day week. 5 days of work w/ 2 days off (and 3 days off for special occasions) seems to fit everyone just fine.
like clocks that move around clockwise, QWERTY keyboards, VHS video tapes, 60Hz electricity
I don't see how you can compare VHS tapes with those other things. VHS will certainly die when a better standard comes along for permanent storage of video. As the price of DVD recorders drops, the VCR will die.
How the audiocassette manages to survive I have no idea.
Also, wasn't electricity once 25 Hz?
Also, wasn't electricity once 25 Hz?
Still is in the NE Corridor south of New Haven to Washington, DC.
Been that way since the 1930's and won't change soon.
Give the audiocassette time. As CD recording is becoming widespread, we are seeing much less tapes. My wife and I just got rid of boxes of them. I took them to the Parson-Archer crew room, but people only took a couple. I got rid of the rest at my old job, but most people are moving beyond tapes. What you see people listening to most of the time now is bootleg CD's. You can tell them by the plain label (just the title and nothing else), and the disc itself reflects more of a rainbow, plus the recording side has a green tint. This is the new "tape", as it is made easily in the home, now. I too am waiting for the DVD recorders to come down.
Already out, Eric....if you wanna spend $500 bucks for a good Panasonic DVD-RAM drive.....they've got 'em at www.tigerdirect.com or at J & R on Park Row. By the way, the cost of the discs 'em selves is around the same for a PRE-"recorded" DVD--around $30 bucks or so.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I know they're out. I've been following them at J&R since the first DVD-RAM came out around the same time as the first R-142 (Summer 2000). What I prefer is the DVD+RW format by Philips (which came out with the R-143, which I also prefer since it is for service my area--how coincidental that these new trains and tech toys seem to come out together). The first one is out for $1999, but the next one is supposed to come out this month for just $999 and will have more capabilities (such as a write once DVD+R disc not supportrd by the first one.). Then there's the Pioneer DVD-R/RW (They never delivered their floor model to J&R, but you can buy them there now). But it seems the +RW format is more versatile.
QWERTY--That's another pet peeve. I wish they would introduce an alphabetical keyboard-- maybe 5×5 + 1, or 6×4 + 2. It could go right next to the number pad.
I know the QWERTY system is supposed to put all the most common letters together or something, but for someone like me who cannot touch type, I just get lost, with all the fast writing I do on this board and others, or my websites. I would remember the order of an alphabetic system better. They shuold try it as an option, just like the ergonomic keyboards that are split in the middle. The keypads the UPS men use are alphabetic.
QWERTY was designed to keep two typebars close to each other from striking at the same time, since that could cause a jam. It was not designed to speed up or slow down typing as legend often suggests. Letters in commonly used pairs were placed a sufficient distance from each other so as to minimize jams.
You'll notice that the letters to spell out "typewriter" are all along the top row. This was so that a typist's fingers need not leave that row and would be able to type the word quickly (demonstration, anyone?) We can wonder how effective the QWERTY design was with this cute little restriction in place. You'll notice that some common letter pairs are pretty close to each other.
For efficiency, the Dvorak layout was developed, but results were dubious. Modern systems still let you select a Dvorak layout, but moving the key caps around is up to you. But even "hunt-n-peck"ers can become pretty quick with the familiar QWERTY layout, and nobody wants to learn a new keyboard.
When mixed-case typewriters came on the scene, they were complete with a "shift" key which performed a mechanical shfit. There's no physical "shifting" going on in modern devices, but the name of the key "stuck." Ditto with "return" on some keyboards. Fortunately, we managed to rid ourselves of "shift lock."
Mark
Fortunately, we managed to rid ourselves of "shift lock."
Because it doesn't perform that function any more. The modern "caps lock" doesn't shift all the keys, only the letters.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> It seems the 7 day week works best for us, <<<
You say that only because there has been no alternative. As global communications improve, and businesses go to 24/7 operation, perhaps some alternative that shifts the days and hours off each week will become more widespread. As it is now, many police, fire departments and military units have rotating shifts which provide different days and hours off on a rotating basis, rather than a rigid schedule based on a seven day week.
Tom
I quite like the idea of the 3 day week. One day in three off, plus easier patterns for having different days off.
Just as long as we don't have to recite the decibet ... it'd have bad implications for GHIndustry ...
Yep...we have a similiar problem here with our time keeping (for the lawyers and paralegals) when it comes to time and fractions.
Stuart, RLine86Man
In case you might be wondering what I meant with the above message:
We all know our base-ten numbering system (and thus the Metric System) is based on the fact that we have 10 fingers. The Simpsons have only eight, therefore should they not have an Octimal system instead of a Decimal system?
so then the 500 that Bart paid for Bleeding Gums Murphy's album Sax on the Beach was really $320 decimal dollars?
Mark
DMY is used in the UK and almost all Commonwealth countries. MDY is just about USA only. However, it only causes confusion for 11 days a month and usually one can see what is meant. It did take me a while to stop wondering what the 9th of November was about though!
That extra "two oh"...what you been smokin'?
02-02-2002
^^
Shawn.
Oh two = 02
oh two = 02
two oh = 20
oh two = 02
Put them all together you have 02 02 20 02
or 2/2/2002.
My favorite panhandler used to board the F to Brooklyn and "entertain" us with his way off key saxophone playing. He was a Black guy who wore Martian or ET antennas on his head. He said that he was from outer space and would not return until he collected enough money to get back home. He slightly altered his pitch every time. One time he threatened to make Ronald Reagan president again, if he did not collect enough money.
He also threatened to play to the next station if he did not get enough money. He would then go to the next car and do it again. I must have seen him panhandling on the F about a dozen times. The F train must have been lucrative for him.
There is a guy who rides the J who rides some kind of a fake horse. Haven't seen him in a few months tho.
Some gang got pissed and killed him. Feel sorry for the guy.
He is on the A line now. It was a donkey.
A line from where to where? I know he doesn't have boundries. But where on the A line would I be likely to find him?
Well, it's one step up from panhandling, in my view. I'm likely to be more sympathetic to him than to a guy who just says "Spare change?"
I like 'Need one million dollars for wine test.' CI Peter
Seems you're describing ANTENNA MAN
with the offkey sax playing and antennas
on the head.... he had a regular
weekly (manhattan) community cable show
on the Manhattan Neighborhood Network
in about 1997 or so...
If you're thinking of the person I've known, he's been around a while. I used to see him on the #1 line on the upper west side. That's a good 20 years ago.
Cheers!
I wonder whatever became of that guy.
He was an act to watch.
At one point he had legal troubles, he hit a passenger.
He's not so funny when people stopped paying him for bad playing so he just made it painfully loud. Of course he wore earplugs.
I guess he's still around. I don't know where and I don't want to know where.
So he made it to the big time. "Only in America."
I can remember a saxophone-playing beggar on the "2" from the late 1960's to around 1975, also African-American and played off-key!! Of course, if he played on-key he would be playing professionally and not begging! I also remember that he allegedly was blind and that he had a card taped to the bell of the saxophone stating this fact and a beggar's cup also mounted to the bell. I always found it remarkable how he would walk from car to car while the train sped through local stations in the express tracks while playing his instrument, with a cane in hand and remain steady while the train screeched the tight curves near the Central Park run. As a teenager in those years, my friends and I got a kick out of putting our feet in his path as he approached to see how he artfully dodged our obstructions as if to prove to ourselves that he was a fake, phoney, and a fraud. Who knows if he indeed was blind? Who'd dare prove it? If he was, he had a lot of guts for trying what with sickos and muggers aplenty in those days. You remember muggers, don't you?
While we're on the topic, do you remember the variety of beggar known as the "pencil pusher?" The man (or woman) would walk into a moving car, distribute pencils or pens with a card attached that read " I'm blind, mute, what-have-you and selling these pens is the only way that I support myself. Please buy one." After the entire car had these pens, he/she would get money or the pen back. A variant of this beggar pushed fresh Florida grapefruits!
I can still replay in my mind the sound of the blary sax combining with the screetching of the subway wheel flanges as this cacaphony echoed on the tunnel walls aboard trains that had every window open and end door wide open.
Only in NYC.
Tunnel Rat.
I've seen "pencil pushers" in Roosevelt Field Mall food court.
Security did next to nothing to stop them when I complained.
I remember a guy who had a stick and he would walk from one end of the car to the next singing while making a beat with his stick. It was one of those blind sticks. He sounded pretty good, and I only saw him twice, once on the F, and another time on an R.
There was a college-age girl with a huge backpack who worked the PATH turnstile at the World Trade Center when there was a difference between its fare and that of the subway. She would tearfully ask directions as to where to switch in Jersey City to get a midtown train. Her problem was lack of fifty cents. She acted totally confused about venturing around beneath Jersey City and of course I wound up throwing her two quarters so she could stay within Manhattan.
Over time in discussion with my equally nerdy-looking friends a fair number of us discovered we had fallen for this. I suspect she is a corporate lawyer by now!!
That reminds me of a woman who walked around the streets with a perscription claiming it was for her son who had asthma. She asked for $5 so that she could get the medicine. She asked me once in my neighborhood, Bensonhurst, about 3 years ago, and then again in Sheepshead Bay with (probably) the same perscription a year ago.
One young woman in Reeboks and business suit with briefcase on a Lex express above 59th:
"Excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry to bother you. I am NOT homeless and I am NOT unemployed, but my rent just went up and my salary isn't high enough to cover it, so if you could just find it in your hearts to-"
I actually heard one ker-plunk. Someone obviously admired her sheer chutzpah.
I'm a member of the Electric Railroaders Association, and every month I get a bulletin of what is going on around the system.
Over the last few months, the ERA has cleaning out their archives and has been offering surplus bulletins. I purchased two years, 1978 and 1979, and it is just amazing how far the system has come since then. The things we complain about today pale in comparison to what was going on then. Some of the "lowlights."
1) R46's with cracked trucks being put in and then pulled out of service.
2) Derailment's involving R10's. (Some pretty serious)
3) Accidents involving various types of equipment in the yards.
4) Trains being cut in half between rush hours (And we complain about the G).
5) Plans to rehabilitate the remaining 198 R16's and approximately 90 R10's as part of the lawsuit between the TA and Pullman over the R46's.
6) Equipment moving all over the place. (R10's and R27-30's on the D, R42's without the proper roll signs)
7) The first QB runs originating from Astoria.
8) When the North Side of the Manhattan Bridge is shut down, the D would run through the Montague Street tunnel, up Nassau Street to Essex Street, and then reverse through the Chrystie Street connector to get to 6th Avenue.
Could you imagine if Subtalk existed then?
And then there's another very bad thing about that time period - almost every car was covered with graffiti.
The only positive I can think of from 1978-79 is the retrofit air-conditioning systems that went in on the R-33/36 Main Line and World's Fair cars (paired, I suppose, with the demise of the Pistachio Green/Gray interiors at the same time, though that's more of an asthetic change than an actual one).
AND...the interior lights were out in at least one car on every train. I was in such a car the first time I rode thru the 60th St. tunnel (a Friday evening in summer '84). Scary, and construction in the Manhattan-bound tube caused the train to crawl. I can still hear the track music, which was strangely in waltz time.
Reminds me of the IRT at that time. Ever IRT train was covered with graffiti from head to toe and it was utterly disgusting. The cars had the beige interior with the orange doors, and plastic seats. But even the seats from time to time had graffiti on them. October 18, 1984 I was on a #1 train when I was 10 years old coming from the Statue of Liberty (which was being restored at that time) which was completely graffiti free with the white scheme on the outside. The car that I was on had the lights off almost the entire trip though, and that included the constant flickering of lights. The train behind mine at Penn Station was another graffiti covered train. My train was stuck for about 5 minutes at 23rd St. due to I beleive was a power-related problem on the train. Man, have times changed from then.
That was the "Snow White" train. The folks at 240th Street Shop and the car cleaners at 242nd Street got jealous at the attention being paid to the R-62s on the #4 and decided to clean up a train of R-29s and keep it clean.
David
There must have been more than one trainset. I clearly remember seeing several miles worth of "Snow Whites" parked on the center track of the 1 line above Dyckman...this was in the late 1980s, prolly Oct. '87 or Feb. '88.
They might have been waiting their fer dere Redboid painting......
Especially since the R-62A's went to the # 1 and da # 3 in around that same time.
Stuart, RLine86Man
There might have been more than one...I really don't remember. However, by 1987-88, the #1 was (as it is now) 100% R-62A. There MIGHT have been some subway cars stored up there (pre-scrapping) that had been painted white by NYC Transit and subsequently graffitied, though.
David
Part of it was also that it permitted a coat of paint to be quickly thrown over any graffiti that had been put on the cars. It was an interesting stopgap in the fight against graffiti. Really I think the death-knell of the graffiti scourge was the proliferation of stainless steel cars (i.e. the R-62 and R-68) and the policy of removing a car out of service once so much as a tag got slapped on there until it could be washed/repainted.
If I'm not mistaken, paint does not adhere well to the R-62 and R-68 cars.
That, and somehow it stopped being popular. Not exactly sure why. Someone else could probably expand on the subject.
One verd: SCRATCHHHHHITI :(
I remember it well. Absolutely repulsive. Ugh!
OTOH, those 7th Ave. expresses really moved.
Presently, the R and E never ascend to the surface. The R did, till 1988 or so.
Which lines, in the past, have also never been vouchsafed a sunlit view?
Which spend most of their time outdoors? I believe the J is the current king, just beating out the 7.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Before 1956, when the IND Fulton St line was extended onto the BMT elevated structure over Libery Ave., the only IND line which saw the light of day at all was the line now referred to as the 'Culver' line (D or F train), which crossed over the Gowanus Canal on an elevated structure and was in 1954 extended to Coney Island over the BMT Culver elevated line. Thus, at that time, the A, AA, BB, CC, D (pre-1954), E, F (post-1954), and GG were all entirely underground. Post 1956, remove the A and rush hour E from the list.
The only IRT lines that were ever completely 'in the dark' were two shuttles: 42nd St and Bowling Green-South Ferry. There weren't any BMT lines that were all subway in those days, as the 4th Ave. local (now the R train) ran to Queensboro Plaza and Astoria.
-- Ed Sachs
Quite right, Ed. Except subtract the GG, since this saw light-of-way at Smith-9th.
It's been mentioned before, but R9s didn't have windshield wipers attached until they began to operate on ex-BMT and the Rockaway Line. I wonder what motormen did when it rained during Sea Beach testing in 1931?
"I wonder what motormen did when it rained during Sea Beach testing in 1931?"
Probably muttered under their breeath "Who the hell was the fool that bought these things without windshield wipers?"
The probably smeared the windshield with potato. No, seriously.
Good point Ed but you forgot the GG train. It's last stop was Smith and 9th Street, an elevated station.
From 1965 to about 1985 the #3 7th Ave. Express operated from 145-Lenox (after 1968, 148-Lenox) to Flatbush & Nostrand. That route was 100% in tunnel. When the #2 and #3 switched Brooklyn switched terminals in 1985 that was no longer true, and the only completely underground IRT route remains the 42 St Shuttle.
Just remembered, there was one all-underground IRT line up until 1958 or so - the 7th Ave/Lenox local from 145/Lenox to South Ferry.
-- Ed Sachs
The IND World's Fair spur was also outdoors.
Presently the B, C, D and 3 trains never see the sun. Maybe the 3 gets a glimpse of it between 145 to 148/Lenox.
[Maybe the 3 gets a glimpse of it between 145 to 148/Lenox]
No maybe about it.
Absolutely. I can see Yankee Stadium from the other side of the river!!!
-Stef
True and I believe the C or CC have never come above ground unless the C ever ran out to Queens on Liberty Ave. (it may have in the past)
www.forgotten-ny.com
I believe the C or CC have never come above ground unless the C ever ran out to Queens on Liberty Ave. (it may have in the past)
The C ran all the way to Far Rockaway for a while about a decade ago. When it did so, it was the only four-borough line.
Actually, it was Rockaway Park, but the important thing was that it was the only 4 borough line.
The B runs on the West End EL and the D runs on the Brighton Line which is a mix of Elevated, Open-Cut and surface.
When I made the posting, the first thing I said was "presently".
Actually the R did see daylight after 1988. Before it was removed from the 4th Ave Local (Brooklyn) run, it would very briefly emerge from the tunnel to cross a bridge that takes 4th Ave. over the Souh Brooklyn RR. Depending on the direction you were travelling, it seemed as if you were peering through a "hole in the tunnel wall" as opposed to being out of the tunnel and onto a bridge since this bridge has the street above you and heavy girders all around the sides, making it very dark and not immediately apparent that the right-of-way is entirely out of the ground. Take the M train and see for yourself; it's interesting and unique for a NYC subway line.
Tunnel Rat.
Get Osama.
You can get a good view of the brigde/tunnel and the Sea Beach on the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway(BQE).
In Phila. the Broad Street Line travels over the Roosevelt Extension which is an expressway. The tracks are totally covered, but if you know what to look for, you can see the covered right of way when driving on the Roosevelt Extension.
Speaking of the Broad Street Line, up until 1956, the line was a complete subway. The Fern Rock station was built on the site of already existing non-revenue trackage, used only to access the carwash and shops. Strangely, Fern Rock is the only place where Broad Street cars can be serviced - unlike the Market-Frankford, which has full service shops at both terminals (though 69th Street is having a shop rehab, while Frankford is having a station overhaul)
I'm trying to picture it. Where?
South of 59 Street/4 Avenue there is a place where you can take a quick look of the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch as it crosses under 4 Avenue. Subway is on an underground bridge.
Douce Man,
That's the spot.
Tunnel Rat
I wasn't sure because you said at one point "South Brooklyn Railway" and "Take the M line". I thought you were refering to the area around 36 St. Oh well, as long as it's straightened up.
There's kinda, sorta another place where the (R) sees the light of day. When it turns from the 69th St tunnel into the 11th St cut (towards the Queens Blvd. line), it does so inches away from where the (N) and (W) leave the tunnel and go up and out to their elevated structure. You can briefly see daylight if your're looking through the front window, or the side window on the left.
:-) Andrew
When it turns from the 69th St tunnel
D'oh! I meant the 60th St Tunnel!
:-) Andrew
The West End also sees daylight briefly as it turns from 4th Avenue onto the old Culver line.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The majority of the West End is elevated.
Kevin me lad, what have you been smoking? The West End becomes an outdoor line just after 36th Street. You might be thinking of that montrosity of the BMT, the 4th Avenue Local, formerly the #2BMT
>>>>what have you been smoking? The West End becomes an outdoor line just after 36th Street. You might be
thinking of that montrosity of the BMT, the 4th Avenue Local, formerly the #2BMT<<<
The topic had sort of gravitated into subway lines that see brief daylight, irrespective of whether they ascend later in their run...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Fascinating, I'll to look for this next time i'm down in NYC.
Tunnel Rat.
I believe the IND 6th Ave/Concourse also operates in a 'tunnel bridge' over the Cross Bronx Expressway though unlike the 4th Avenue daylight cannot be seen...
www.forgotten-ny.com
All of Montreal's subway is underground. As if that solid wall that blocks your view out the front of the trains wasn't enough.
And both trackbeds are side by side in the same tunnel. Plus all stations have side platforms. I am speaking about the original portion; don't know about any of the extensions or new lines.
All stations in Montreal are side platforms and tracks in the middle except for:
De L'Eglise: Two levels, one track and one platform on each level (similar to the CPW stations)
Charlevoix: Same as De L'Eglise
Lionel Groulx: Two island platforms on two levels, Green line trains on one side of both levels, Orange line trains on the other side
Snowdon: Same as Lionel Groulx except with Orange and Blue lines
Jean Talon: Blue Line side only, two levels, one track and platform on each level
And Metros do see daylight at mostly-windows-Angrignon station, even though they aren't really outside.
This has recently been an interesting issue for me as it relates to the subway in Stockholm.
I spent six weeks working on Tub1 ("system 1," for want of a better way to describe it; a "line," in New York terms, with three branches at its south end, so three different routes + a few more in the rush) that's mostly outside -- elevated and at-grade.
I hated it a lot, so I transferred to Tub3 (a single southern terminal and two northern branches), which is almost entirely underground.
One of the comments I frequently got was that I'd be miserable being underground that much!
Do any of the NYC motormen who spend most of their time in the tunnels feel deprived of sunlight?
Just wondering,
Tim
Quick question, Tim - do any of the the Stockholm subway cars have railfan windows? Or are they like the trains in London and Montreal, where unless you're in the cab or you have X-ray vision, you can't see out the front of the trains.
Nope, they don't have railfan windows. At least, none of the cars currently running do. The original cars (C1 and C2) had half-width cabs, and consequently had railfan windows, but those cars are long gone.
The new C20 stock has very large windows on the front of the train, and if you're standing at the door behind the driver you have a shot at seeing out those windows if you cup your hands over your face to cut out the reflections from the lights in the passenger compartment. I've seen people, usually kids, doing this behind me sometimes when I drive.
Regards,
Tim
Victoria Line in London is entirely underground. Circle line gets lots of breaks in the tunnel roof, but does not have anything remotely resembling a view. Glasgow also has a circle line that is completely underground.
What are the acceleration speed of the (answer what ever you can)
Worlds Fair cars
5 train
R-62
R-142
R-32
R-38
R-40 slant
R-44
R-46
R-68
R-143
MNRR M-2
MNRR M-4
MNRR M-6
LIRR M-1
LIRR M-3
Amtrak Metrt-Liner
Amtrak Acela Express (not the HHP-8 & coaches, but the 10 car semi-perminently married, made by bombardier cars)
A answer on any of there willl be gratfully appriciated.
What are the acceleration speed of the (answer what ever you can)
Worlds Fair cars
5 train
R-62
R-142
R-32
R-38
R-40 slant
R-44
R-46
R-68
2.5 MPH/Sec.
You forgot the acceleration speeds of the R26-36 cars as they imbed themselves into the sands.
2Gs at least, eh?
2G's? Try not more than one G.
"2.5 MPH/Sec"
Is that for a full train or an empty one? Since F=ma, and F is fixed (the force the engines can produce), a is going to get lss when m increases.
Load weighing attemts to keep this roughly constant by determining approximately how heavily loaded the train is.
-Robert King
"Load weighing attemts to keep this roughly constant by determining approximately how heavily loaded the train is."
So you're saying a full train can accelerate at 2.5 mph/sec, while an empty train could accelerate more rapidly, except a control mechanism prevents it?
That's basically it. Additionally, a truly overstuffed train could be so heavy that even with all the limitations on the acceleration rate removed by the load weighing mechanism it still won't be able to reach the highest acceleration rate on account of being loaded up too heavily. I've seen this referred to on some specification sheets as "Rate maintainance to #### lbs" where anything beyond that will result in a performance drop - the full acceleration rate wouldn't be reached.
-Robert King
F=MA is correct but in the case of a NYC Subway Car, A is a constant so A=F/M. As the load (M) increases, F is increased proportionally to maintain A at 2.5 MPH/Sec. F is compensated for by means of a device known as a load sensor. It constantly measures the weight of each car and adjusts the propulsion or braking effort accordingly. Although cars are tested in Light load and heavy load (AW0 & AW3) the specifications also call for specific performance at AW1 and AW2 rates. AW0 is equivalent to an empty car and AW3 is at maximum load.
interesting. thanks.
So how come coming out of express stops, one train will out accelerate the one on the other track?
The cars are designed to perform as stated. Of course, there are external factors that contribute to (or detract from) the performance. Maintenance has a lot to do with the performance. If the "rate pots" (on GE cars) are played with as a shortcut to repairing other problems, the car will not perform as designed. Similarly, improperly maintained or adjusted load sensor or other mechanical defects may affect performance. Aside from maintenance, track condition, 3rd rail voltage variations or simply the way the operator operates can cause dissimilarities in performance. In fact, normal tollerances in components from one car to another can account for some variations in performance.
Excellent posts, Train Dude. Learned a lot.
Case in point, I rode with an operator on the C yeterday who started from each station in series (2nd point) for at least ten seconds, before notching up to parallel (3rd point). And entering stations, he started his braking sequence well before entering the platform area, and was down to 10 mph or less by the conductors' boards. As Train Dude said -- much of the disparity can be operator practice.
(But today I rode on the W with a MOTORMAN who knows what he's doing, and he knows who he is!)
Case in point #2...
Thursday night (1/31/02), around 8:30 PM, southbound at Times Square.
W pulls into the station on the local track (prior to switching to the express track south of the station) and makes a station stop. While the doors are open, A Q (circle) pulls into the station on the express track and makes a station stop. There were no holding lights activated as far as I could see, yet, instead of using the Q (circle)'s dwell time to get a head start, the W's Conductor chooses to make a connection! Now BOTH TRAINS ARE SITTING IN THE STATION! I mean, come on people! This is supposed to be RAPID TRANSIT, and some (admittedly well-intentioned) people are sucking the life right out of it! Anyway, to continue...the W leaves, with the Q (circle) separated by the minimum the signal system will allow. Following the W closely on the local track are an N and an R. After a wait, a Q (diamond) comes in on the express track and makes a station stop. While it's in the station, the next W comes in on the local track! Fortunately the Q (diamond) crew had their heads on their shoulders and didn't make a connection. Of course, even with the Q (diamond) Train Operator stopping (or nearly so) for a yellow signal, we caught up to the Q (circle) in front of us on the Manhattan Bridge.
Somewhere along the line, RTO forgot how to run a railroad.
David
>>> This is supposed to be RAPID TRANSIT <<<
Your post brought tears to my eyes since I live in a city where the subway runs on 10 minute headways during rush hour, and the doors remain open in the station at least 40 seconds at every stop. I guess you would call it "Medium Fast Transit" rather than Rapid Transit.
Tom
"Medium Fast Transit"
... or perhaps "half-fast transit" ... (sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself)
Leisurely Transit pretty much sums it up.
And just what city would that be?
- Lyle Goldman
Dave, you must remember there are bulletins mandating connections during non peak hours. RTO knows how to run the railroad. RTO, Signals AND Car Equipment KNOW how to run a less than Rapid Transit System. If they still knew how to run Rapid Transit, we'd have motormen, keybys and brakes.
Amen! And if you screwed up, forget management - TWU would get you.
I am quite familiar with the rule regarding cross-platform connections. The rule requires both trains to be on time. Analysis of the weekday timetables in effect on January 31 (the same one that's in effect now) shows that the W was not on time (it was within NYCT's definition of on-time for an entire trip -- within 5 minutes or less of scheduled arrival time at the terminal -- but it was approximately 2-1/2 minutes late at Times Square. Given that it was due to leave at 8:27-1/2 PM and the following Q-circle was due to leave at 8:31 PM, that would have left 3-1/2 minutes for the following to happen:
W train leaves Times Square on local track and switches to express track
Switch normalizes for express operation
Signal clears
Q-circle (having arrived while the above was happening) leaves
Because the W was already late, that 3-1/2 minute window had closed to approximately 1 minute, which is not enough time for the train to pass over the switch, the switch to normalize, and the signal governing the Q-circle to clear. Furthermore, holding the W at Times Square for a connection with the Q-circle SERVED NO PURPOSE!!! Since the Q-circle had started its trip one express stop away (57th Street), it is highly unlikely that anybody on it really wanted a W, which had passed through that same stop on the local track while the Q-circle was sitting on the express track (even the "wrong" express track) waiting for its starting lights. Additionally, anybody on the W who wanted to transfer to the Q-circle had a chance to cross the platform during the W's normal dwell time at Times Square, and would have had subsequent chances at 34th Street, 14th Street, and Canal Street. By holding that train, the Condcuctor served nobody and inconvenienced hundreds of people.
David
I agree it doesn't make sense for the conductor to hold the train. But the bulletin in effect states trains must make connections during off peak hours for trains arriving on an adjacent platform in similar direction. It does not allow for lateness in intervals unless there is an updated bulletin I am unaware of. There are no rules requiring trains to be on time. Train operators must endeavor to economize their operations to close gaps, providing it can be done with safety. There are rules requiring RTO to ensure trains leave terminals on time. Train Dispatchers must display starting lamps at least 15 seconds before departure. Conductors must have made their departing announcements before the lamps are displayed. All crews are on trains at least 2 minutes before departure. Anything else, the Superintendant will make it appear on time.
I will check further into the rule regarding connections during the week if I remember. In the meantime, I direct SubTalkers' attention to the following rules:
Rule 39(e) KNOWLEDGE OF RUNNING TIME AND SCHEDULE
All employees whose work has anything to do with the running of trains must know the running time and schedule of their run.
Rule 39(f) OBEY TIMETABLE
Train Operators are responsible for running their trains according to the timetable running time, except where conditions on the track interfere, or unless otherwise ordered by printed instructions or by a supervisor.
David
239th crews never touch the dynamic braking package BUT 180th crews always check and measure in propulsion. Their chantings are at least in English. CI Peter
On the subject of F=ma......keep these facts in mind when
discussing the nominal 2.5MPH/s rate on NYCT equipment.
1) As TD stated, F exerted by the motors (tractive effort) is
adjusted to be proportional to m, so the weight cancels out.
2) The total F acting on the train includes other components such
as gravity and curve resistance. Since the system is open-loop
(actual acceleration is not measured and controlled with a feedback
control system), acceleration rates uphill and around sharp curves
will be less. Also, "dead motors" are not compensated for.
3) The constant acceleration portion of the curve is from approx
1-18 MPH only. From 0-1 there is a cushioning step to reduce jerk.
From 18-balancing speed, acceleration rolls off to zero. In this
area of the curve there are differences between rolling stock classes
and load weight, but they are difficult to predict and AFAIK never
measured by the TA.
4) The propulsion package used on the "new tech" trains (R110 and
above) is closed-loop and is theoretically capable of maintaining
nominal acceleration rates further into the speed curve. Currently,
NYCT has the software programmed to approximately emulate old tech
cars to avoid potential problems with signal distances.
3) The constant acceleration portion of the curve is from approx 1-18 MPH only. From 0-1 there is a cushioning step to reduce jerk. From 18-balancing speed, acceleration rolls off to zero. In this area of the curve there are differences between rolling stock classes and load weight, but they are difficult to predict and AFAIK never measured by the TA.
In the area from 0-1 mph, what is the anti-jerk step? 1.25 mph/sec?
Is the rolloff from 18-balancing speed linear? i.e. if VB is the balancing speed and v is the velocity, 18 <= v <= VB then
a = 2.5 [1-((v-18)/(VB-18))]
What is the nominal balancing speed (with/without shunt)?
In the area from 0-1 mph, what is the anti-jerk step? 1.25 mph/sec?
The exact rate and the duration of the step is not something that
is specified or calibrated. Subway car control equipment has had
one or more cushioning steps since the dawn of automatic acceleration.
In the current "SMEE" equipment, and I hope Train Dude will jump in
if I make a mistake, there are 2 intermediate steps on the control
group between coast and switching. A cushioning resistance is
present in the very first step, and full field shunting. The second
step eliminates the cushion resistor and reduces the field shunting,
the third step, which is where the group holds in switching, makes
a further reduction in shunting. I believe the fields are 25%
shunted in switching, which leads to reduced tractive effort, and
of course considerable series resistance remains in the circuit.
These steps are not under rate control, so they happen at whatever
speed the pilot motor happens to turn (which should be reasonably
constant).
Is the rolloff from 18-balancing speed linear
LINEAR??? Good lord, no. BTW, I say 18 MPH. That's an estimate
of about where on the speed curve all of the resistance has been
cut out and the motors (OK, the series pairs of 300VDC motors)
are in parallel and directly across the 600VDC line. From that
point until balancing speed, figuring out the speed vs acceleration
curve is very, very messy analytically. The problem is almost always
solved graphically, by making use of a chart known as a DC motor
characteristic curve, which is constructed empirically by the motor
manufacturer, and relates torque to current given a particular
constant line voltage (usually taken as 600) and field shunting
percentage. The motor curve is nasty mostly because the flux
produced by the field windings is related to the field current
by the B-H saturation curve of the steel poles. Armature reaction
(the additional field component produced by the armature current)
also has to be factored in.
What is the nominal balancing speed (with/without shunt)?
With the original field shunting, the nominal balance speed is
50 MPH, per the car procurement specs. That was with 100 hp
motors. With the upgraded 115hp motors, probably about 55.
With those motors but no field shunting, about 42.
Hey TD, do you know if there's any truth to the old story that the LIRR M-1s were origionally going to be set for 2.5mph/s acceleration, too???
BTW - I'm not certain on the Acela Express, though it seems to be a bit better than 1 mph/s, which is better than an AEM-7, and less than the TGV.
The NJ Arrows appear to be able to do 2.0 mphs or so, at least up to a decent speed on 25kv. The Silverliners are pretty quick, too.
The origional Metroliner was supposed to be decent, but if a car or two on the train died, became a real dog.
As for running, I've observed 7 car New Haven line trains running 80+mph with 4 cars dead. I've heard the M-1s can maintain 80mph with 1/2 the cars in a train dead, too.
I was riding with Mr R46 on the Corridor while he was troubleshooting his train of AC motored Arrows as they died out, with ONE single car left. That one car pulled us to 60 MPH.
Where is The Transportation Professional Formerly Known as Mr. R46??? he has not graced us with his prescence for EONS!!!
Quite busy, tied down at arbitration, discipline and unfortunately, a death in family last week. It will be eons before I can even remember his handle.
I guess Erik will be busy pretty soon with contract negotiations, too.
He sends his love. I spoke to him before the Supt Shuffle. I hope they let non executive board members in on the action there for the CBA meetings.
Fortunately, the big Superintendent shuffle did not affect my little corner of the universe. My RTO counterpart and I have an excellent working relationship that I'd hate to lose. I also hope it hasn't affected a certain District 5 night Supt. who I hope to see this evening. Yes, I'll be prowling the system tonight.
I was wondering about him, too. His report concerning a northbound Brighton Superexpress was an all time classic.
I printed a copy of that memorable post. Wish I had been on that train!
Steve, we think along the same lines. I also printed out and saved that post. I wish I had been on that train, too.
Our last trip together, we worked the A out of Lefferts. We got rerouted through the Rutgers due to trackwork and as I recall rocking over the old unwelded rail there, I recall hearing a "fasten the seat belts, we will be cruising at 150 KM through some turbulence" announcement leaving York St. He had a knack for reroutes.
The 54 mph is what really stands out. It must have felt like:
super express, super express, slant R-40 super express
scrollamount is too high. A slant would self-destruct at that speed.
So you remember that classic post, too. Did you also print it out?
Sorry, I was refering to the scrolling text. It was too fast to read. I actually don't remember the original post. If you have the number, I'd be curious to see it.
Steve, the post no. is 120562.
What made this post so memorable was the way the story was told. It begins with a not-so-unusual happenstance and gradually builds into a railfan's dream. We were told in detail of this extraordinary run and the theory of what allowed it to occur.
If Dave, the website host, should ever compile an "Annals of Subtalk" this story would have to be in there.
The post is from May 18, 2000 (what I've been a subtalker for 2 years?). Now you'll understand how Steve B8AVEXP and myself remember this contribution and the contributor, The Transit Professional known as Mr. R46.
--Harry (Q Brightliner)
That was the Transit Professional Formerly known as Mr R46. They are utter garbage compared to what they should have been.
Wow! I just went back into the archives and reread that post.
Thanks again, Erik, wherever you are!!
You're right, I left out the "Formerly". But the post was not about R46s, but rather an extraordinary ride on an R40 slant.
I had to throw in a plug for my friend, a fan of former R46s
Those sound like R-46 door chimes.
Thanks! I just went back and read it. It was a great post and a great reminder of some of the contentious debates we used to have here. What's more, as Erik said, it showed I was correct about my theory about subway car speed. Keep posting stuff like that and HeyPaul will be going for the greyhound exhaust pipe.
Went looking for it and couldn't get beyond an error on message number 120562 ... izzat da right number?
Kevin, go to Archives page. Where it says "Posted within last" choose "several eons". Then select "Poster" as "Transit Professional". Look at May 18, 2000. It's well worth the trip!
--Harry
Heh. Cute story ... and R1/9's were able to do that as well though requiring the stops. I know that downgrade and no doubts as to the speed. Only difference of course was that the old girls hadn't been neutered. :)
I believe the Brightliners did that in their day, too, but of course, with the stops this was not SUSTAINED for over a mile. But you said elsewhere that you ran Brighton/Concourse in 70/71. Wasn't the rolling rubble getting scarce on the D by then, with the introduction of the R42s?
They removed them off peak ... but during rush hour, all the old girls that didn't have arthritis came out to dance. And dance they did until a door jammed or a pipe busticated. :)
Once in a while a train of oldtimers could be had on the D on weekends. The last time I got one was around December of 1969. No headlights, either. The CPW dash was a blast.
They were rare aside from Saturday mornings while some cars were doing their car wash thing ... the TA wanted to get the old girls off the railroad as much as possible aside from rush hours when they were still short of cars ...
I think I got a prewar A train from 42nd St. twice in three years of regular Saturday commuting. Maybe one from 14th St. northbound in the afternoon and one, maybe two from 59th St. southbound. In general, my R-1/9 rides on the IND were few and far between. Most of them occurred in 1967, before Chrystie St. By far and away, most of my IND rides in those days were on A trains of R-10s, followed by D trains of R-32s.
Yep ... the TA went out of their way to hide the R1/9's except for "rush" ... of course, they were still stuck on the E and ended up on the Eastern Division. MOST D trains were 32's with the gapped 42's to stop the whining about "why don't WE get air conditioned cars?" ... NYC residents are notorious whiners. Heh.
But yeah, off-peak, the D train was KNOWN for its 32 fleet ... with the occasional "bingbong" every good gap ...
Needless to say, when a train of oldtimers did pull in on the A or D, my eyes would become saucers. Oh, goody! No headlights to boot! It's a crying shame that most of those rides were brief, only a few stops usually.
Then there was that R-1/9 train which was returning from Aqueduct, signed as an S/Special, but running as an E express. We caught it at Broadway-Nassau and rode it to 42nd St., skipping Spring St. and 23rd St. I watched it leave 42nd St. after getting off, and it turned off onto the E line to Queens.
By the way, how did you take that downgrade? In full parallel or did you let up a bit?
Once you got up to speed and weren't climbing, didn't make sense to keep pulling power when you didn't need it - coasting was normal operating mode on flat territory or a downgrade ... unlike the newer trains, when the controller was in the "off" position, you weren't feeding loads or dynamic braking that would cause you to slow down much. But yeah, sometimes I'd stay wrapped just to see what difference it made ... not much actually ...
I still remember one afternoon, around 3:20 P.M., 1966 or thereabouts. I was on a southbound Q Brightliner. I was in the front of the train looking out the window as we pulled out of Newkirk. There was a young motorman in the cab, probably someone unfamiliar with the Brighton line, and an older gentlemen, probably an instructor, standing behind him propping the door open. I'll never forget his command to his younger counterpart: "TAKE IT UP FULL".
Was "WRAP IT!!!" ever a common phrase among instructors?
Yes, but not in your first few rides ... you were too busy with your knees shaking on you to even respond to "wrap it" ... they saved that for the later days of your breaking in ... first few days were very formal, things such as "take it to the third notch now" ...
Yep ... that's classic motor instructor ... and between 1964 and 1972, pretty much everyone on the railroad was being swapped out with kids like myself. The 32's were VERY much like a redbird cab in their layout and they were "peppy" compared to the wrecks used in school car at the time. So your first time on the road was literally "ride'em cowboy" and the motor instructors spent a lot of time reassuring you that they really were supposed to run that fast. :)
I can only imagine what it was like with the R-10s on the A.
For the record, the R10's had faster acceleration than R1/9's from an equal takeoff, KNOWN "dueling motormen" for handle-grabbing traits but the R1/9's won the race if they had motors ... balancing speed was higher than the R10's for the ORIGINAL motors ... it was only 1-2 MPH, but you could STILL savour it. :)
SCREW the R10's ... RX's ... a PROPER D train. Heh.
As you know, I loved both car classes. They were both near and dear to me. It's just that I rode on the R-10s much, much more on the IND than the oldtimers.
My first ride on the Queens line in May of 1968 was memorable, to say the least. We got a prewar E train and man, did it move!! Might have been one of those R-6/7 mixes that Wayne speaks so highly of.
Yeah, the peppier ones did end up out in Queens ... once upon a time, the Queens line was the most important piece of the IND based on use so they tended to get the better equipment ...
Wayne says the R-6-2s may have been the fastest of the bunch. 1233 once headed an F train whose bull and pinion gears were wailing away at A-440. That's fast, folks. That particular train must have had every motor functioning. Ditto for that R-10 consist headed by 3080.
I'd be curious as to how high the bull and pinion gears got up to at that point.
They got up there but I never thought to take a guitar tuner with me to record the pitch. I wasn't all that much of a musician (David Peel can tell ya, heh) but I knew the pitches for the speeds I was supposed to be doing at various points along the railroad ... that's why we didn't need any stinking speedos back in those days. The TRAIN told ya how you were doing ...
I enjoyed some of HeyPaul's contributions and wish he were back here. But I did have misgivings with those who claimed to have witnessed this speed or that without confirmed evidence, or who mistook the quietness of the R68s as slowness (when the only statistical evidence ever presented here was to the contrary), and I really remember you very much did take issue with them, too.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.:-)
Super express, super express. Slant R-40 super express
What was amazing about the whole thing is that it was a SUSTAINED speed, for over a mile. Gotta be some kind of record.
Any railfans on that train had to be drooling.
"Hey TD, do you know if there's any truth to the old story that the LIRR M-1s were origionally going to be set for 2.5mph/s acceleration, too??? "
No, I wasn't aware of it but it was/is within the realm of possibilities. I believe that the rates on the SCM-4 propulsion package are adjustable. The determining factors then would be the size of the traction morors and the weight of the car.
It seems logical that a train, running on level ground, can maintain speed even with dead motors. Inertia is a powerful thing.
Recall that an automobile, heavily loaded, may require additional time to reach 60 mph on a road, but once there, it will not require the engine's full horsepower to stay at 60 mph; it will only require enough power to overcome wind resistance, and friction, really. Once a body is in motion, it wants to stay in motion.
A Triplex would be a classic case in point.
SMEE cars motors and control are basicly all interchangeable, therefore have the same rate.
Ditto with the MN/LIRR stuff.
Amtrak Acela Express (not the HHP-8 & coaches, but the 10 car semi-perminently married, made by bombardier cars)
AE trains have 6 coaches with two locomotives on each end.
It's still going like the energizer bunny. A couple of 'Birds can be seen at the front of the yard on 10th Avenue, as I found them tonight. I made mental notes and found the cars heading to the Reef are Pelham's Old Fleet, all yellow stickers. A diesel locomotive could be found at the front of four shells. I suppose the diesel was going to move them over to the side of the yard by the river for barge loading.
I was able to identify at least two cars stripped and ready for the reef, R-29s 8630-31.
If Delaware has their 400 Cars, who's getting the next batch?
-Stef
8630/8631 have been out of service for a few months. The January 2002 ERA bulletin says that work is going to start up again.
I don't think they have reefed 400 cars yet, have they?
400?! Feels like 4000.
A Prominent ERA member who posts under the name "Widecab5", came up with a grand total of 425 deadbirds.
8630 and 31 were probably in dead storage at Concourse Yard before being stripped at 207th Street.
-Stef
South Carolina was getting the next 300.
Other states were Georgia, Virginia and, of course, New York.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
recycle the metal do not pollute the ocean...
This has been discussed already. There is a problem with asbestos on the redbirds. It is wiser for them to be dumped in the ocean than to risk possible lawsuits by selling off cars that contain asbestos to scappers. Lots of parts are removed before reefing that will be stored, recycled, etc. The only thing going into the water is the car body shell. I'm sure the EPA or someone would have thrown a fit if there was a real danger to the ocean.
Shawn.
drop it in a smelter or that thing that melts metal....
U know.........
Fibers could still be released into the air and that is against the law last time I looked.
Oh, and in case you don't recall why there's asbestos there...
IT DOESN'T BURN!!! IT'S FIREPROOFING MATERIAL!!!
Ok, sorry I'm yelling.
Asbestos abatement is very expensive stuff. Scrapping the cars is impractical because they have to remove the stuff and then dispose of it somewhere, and of course, people think asbestos is like plutonium.
Blame the lawyers for making it impractical. Asbestos litigation is quite the racket (just listen to the commercials for the lawyers who specialize in this stuff).
My high school had to remove all its asbestos floor tile years ago because the parents were up and arms. Mind you, asbestos floor tile can only hope to cause illness if you grind it up and inhale it! Which is pretty much what the Polish guys in the spacesuits (and yes, there's a lot of Poles laboring in asbestos abatement) had to do to scrape the stuff off the concrete.
>>>. Asbestos litigation is quite the racket <<<
YES it is.
I've always maintained such. Foe chirst sake, I was raised in a house with abestos shingles. I think abestos abatment IS ONE BIG FRAUD, imho/
PEACE,
ANDEE
>> Asbestos litigation is quite the racket <<
One werd: ABSOLUTELY.
My firm does defense counsel to several relatively large companies, even including the MTA---if anyone remembers I stated a current Federal Court case in Brooklyn---The U.S. versus Metropolitan Transportation Authority...I'll look up the Index No. and get back to you...briefly, it entails the MTA's FAILURE to properly neutralize potential asbestos contamination while removing sheets of roofing laced with "transite"---an asbestos containing material.
By the way, I found out the NAMES OF STATIONS included in the allegations:
Brighton Beach Station--1992 Lines: Delta and Quebec (D/Q)
Ocean Parkway Station--1992 Line: Delta (D)
Central Avenue Station--1992 Line: Mike (M)
Seneca Avenue Station--1993 Line: Mike (M)
Knickerbocker Avenue Station--1993 Line: Mike (M)
Forest Avenue Station--1993 Line: Mike (M)
All of these stations were abated of "ACM" (asbestos containing material" during the times I stated above. Exact dates, I am afraid, I am not allowed to give out, as it's a "work-product" of the firm...just the basics.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Some I'm doing RotBoid Carbody today and I'm looking at an inside panel. Looks like tar over some kind of? Where the asbestos exactly is...is anyones guess...but the CTAs are bitchin because CIs flush out their noses over the sinks and leave black/green gobs of...CI Peter
Do you think they would have allowed dousing the Composites with gasoline and burning them today? Those cars were LOADED with asbestos.
I tore the asbestos siding off my house about 20 years ago and just broke it up and put it out with the trash! You can't do that now!!!
Chuck Greene
Yeah, my dad and I were wondering how we'd take care of the asbestos shingles on his house. My suggestion was slowly putting a little at a time in the trash, mixed with other crap. Kinda how I got rid of the carpets in my Co-op. They slowly disappeared into the dumpsters...
Back in Spain, my neighbors there had all this PVC wall panels all over their house (don't ask me, it was popular for a short time in the late 70's/early 80's in Spain, and was cheaper than tile somehow). Anyway, they removed this stuff and had it in a big pile in the backyard. So, my neighbor says "I figure I'll just burn it and get rid of it that way."
Yikes.
Riiight... the smelter will pollute a LOT less than putting a piece of steel (which is largely made of stuff that is mined from the earth) containing a small amount of asbestos (which, last I checked, is also a mineral that comes from the earth) in the ocean.
Kids, it's not plutonium.
Yes, it sounds bad to just toss it into the ocean, but it does create some considerable benefits:
1. The fishies love it. The nooks and crannies of an artificial reef make a nice breeding ground (especially for egg-laying)
2. Plant life will abound (which helps oxygenate the ocean so the fishies are happy
2. Reefs also will help combat beachfront erosion.
Really, it's a win-win for the humans and the ocean critters.
One thing I was wondering- Carbon steel in salt water will rust very quickly. I'm hoping it doesn't completely corrode so quickly that plant life won't be able to take a decent root and build its own reef.
There's a lot of Bondo in those carbodies, so I hear. Bondo doesn't break down as fast.
I agree, but some others seem to have ideas of their own. Old cars do no go to scrap anymore, they get reefed....
-Stef
SCTS may have a point there. What exactly happens when Carbon steel sits in salinated water over a period of time? There's got to be some adverse oxidation taking place.
Steel cannot rust without air.
There is oxygen (and nitrogen, and carbon dioxide, among other things) dissolved in the water, else the fish couldn't breathe.
Additionally, there is a single oxygen molecule bonded to two hydrogen molecules in water. The iron molecules can actually break some of those bonds with the hydrogens to produce rust and hydrogen gas:
Fe + H20 = FeO + 2 H
Steel is not a compound, it is an alloy. So, the iron molecules can actually break off of whatever else is in the steel (vanadium, chromium, I'm not sure what else is in there) and even the other elements in the alloy can bond with the oxygen in the water molecules.
Hence, the process of rusting is called oxidation.
It's been a few years since college chem for me, but I think I'm right in principle. I might be wrong on the proportions of the formula. Someone more proficient than me could correct me on this.
Still, not bad for someone who got a D in Chemistry. :)
Actually, it can, but the process is significantly slowed. The process of oxidation simply requires oxygen, which is present in abundance in water. It's the free oxygen which makes the job easier, and that is present in much greater proportions in air.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wouldn't the water pressure cause metal fatigue to destroy the cars before rust does?
The subway cars underwater have water inside and outside. They're not submarines. The equalization of pressure inside and outside, since they're not bouyant, leads to no pressure on the hulls.
An example of this principle is the sunken wreck of the USS Yorktown near Midway (Sunk at the Battle of Midway by the Japanese sub I-168). She filled with water and sank to a depth of a few miles(!). When Ballard discovered her wreck, aside from battle damage, the ship looked just like she did the day she sank. There was no significant implosion or explosion because she essentially filled with water and sank. In fact, oxygen is so scarce at these depths that the ship has little rust to speak of. After 60 years, one can still see the hull number (5) of the wreck and her name on the stern.
A ship like the Titanic, which snapped in half while sinking, demonstrates this principle, too. The bow of the ship filled with water, broke off and sank. The stern of the ship was no longer bouyant, and sank, despite having an immense quantity of air. This portion ruptured somewhere underwater, which is why the stern of teh wreck is heavily damaged while the bow is intact, save for rust damage.
Even if they sank them with windows and doors, implostion or explosion would not happen since the subway cars are not watertight. They would just sink a little more slowly.
Not sure how many birds we've received here in Delaware, but the ocean level has risen an inch or two.
Bill
And, yes, I'm just joking.
dump your infectted trash in the ocean
dump your infectted trash in the ocean
very nice ...........UGH
dump your infectted trash in the ocean
Why is the acelaration on railroads so darn slow? Can't they do something about it?
If a locomotive is pulling a string of rolling stock, how fast do you want it to go - fast enought to pull a drawbar?
MU's have motors on all wheels (or at least 75%). Loco hauled trains have motors only on the locomotive(s).
In Europe trains are shorter, because they lack slack action as trains are really up against each others buffer. The front end moves at almost the same time as the rear car.
I rode on the Amtrak AEM-7's when they were brand new in 1981, and believe me, the acceleration then was impressive. But then, they were pulling 3-4 car trains.
I also rode the Danish-built Flexliner on the Amtrak San Diego line, again, acceleration was impressive.
I rode Southern Pacific commute trains on the San Francisco peninsula behind both Fairbanks-Morse H24-66's and EMD SDP-45's...again, fantastic acceleration.
(I won't comment on LIRR's 12-16 car trains behind ONE Alco Century 420.....hehehe!)
I think the big problem is -- most Amtrak (and Metro-North) trains are hauled by GE locomotives. They are very slow to load up -- but once up to speed can keep it. Amtrak did try the GE's (the 500 series hood units) on the San Diego line when they wre brand new in 1991. Oh, they looked pretty, but toss your watch out the window as the schedule became purely fiction. They had to keep a bunch of EMD F40's out here just to keep schedules. They went and bought EMD F59PHI's just for the San Diego services....the only non-GE diesels in the fleet now (except for a very small handful of F40's...)
All it takes is money.
A big long heavy train has hardly more air resistance than a short one. So once you get it moving, it doesn't take a lot of propuslive force to keep it moving (excpet up a hill).
Since railroads have fewer stops than subways, the temptation is to have less engine power relative to the weight of a fully loaded train. Therefore, you speed up gradually, but once you're moving you're fine. Since the train doesn't stop very often, you don't lose much schedule time.
For commuter trains and subways, this obviously doesn't work. You need more power to get moving fast. But I'm sure that if you did the arithmetic you'd find that a greater percentage of the cost of subway rolling stock was the propulsion system than on a long heavy underpowered long distance train.
I guess they're too cheap to buy new equipment at this time.
Acceleration is usually perfectly fine, but it does depend on the type of stock. SEPTA MU's can hit 60 in about half a mile or less.
Unless you have a time componemt, I don't believe your statement has any real significance.
Actually, this is a meaningful statement. For steady acceleration:
v squared = 2ad,
where v = velocity, a = acceleration, and d = distance.
So the less distance it takes to reach 60 mph (88 feet/sec), the better your acceleration.
If v = 88 ft/sec, and d = 2640 ft, then a = 88x88/(2x2640) = 1.47 ft/sec/sec = 1.0 mph/sec, which is considerably slower than a subway train accelerating at 2.5 mph/sec.
The half mile was just an estimate as the R5 can hit 60 between most stations on the former PRR main line before having to apply the brakes. For real numbers (found in Pensy Power II) a Budd Silverliner could accelerate at 1.8 m/ss and was considerably faster than an old MP-54.
We were discussing accelleration of a railcar. Based on mike's meaningful statement;
"SEPTA MU's can hit 60 in about half a mile or less."
we know as much about the SEPTA MUs as we did before.
You make assumptions that may or may not be true. The major assumption is that mike is capable of judging what a 1/2 mile is from a moving railcar. Even mike says " a half mile or less" which indicates that even he's not sure. Plugging garbage into the best formula still gives you garbage as a result.
How many significant figures should I provide in the future? The railroad distance between Haverford (MP 9.1) and Ardmore (MP 8.5) is .6 miles. A SETPA MU train can attain 60 mph before braking to make the station stop. As I did not feel like looking up the mileposts for some stupid subtalk post I made a 95% confident statement that a SEPTA MU could accelerate to 60mph within one half mile. WAS I WRONG IN THIS STATEMENT OF GREAT AND ALL KNOWING TRAIN DUDE. IS A SILVERLINER IV NOT CAPABLE OF SUCH A FEAT?
Give it up mikey. You are an idiot and I choose not to play anymore.
"You make assumptions that may or may not be true."
My only point was that it is possible to compute acceleration from distance traveled and speed achieved, without knowing the time it took to reach the end speed. I used the claimed measurements as an example.
Neither my post nor the one I responded to expressed any opinion whatsoever about the accuracy of those particular measurements of speed and distance.
I fully understand what you did and have no problem with it. My objection was that Mike used your equation as some sort of vindication for his point of view. My point was that with the statement "1/2 mile or less", no difinitive statement about the accelleration of the subject equipment could be made without a time component. I still say that mike's information was absolutely useless as given.
Why is the acelaration on railroads so darn slow?
Simple - poor power to weight ratio.
Can't they do something about it?
Sure. Make the equipment lighter, and add more power to the train. That's how the Europeans do it, and it's very effective. Granted, they have the benifit of electrification, but diesel multiple units are equally effective in the 0 - 90mph range.
The trick is to drop the weight and add power - European trains often have 3 or more times as much power per ton as US ones do. Even the Acela is considered underpowered by European standards.
(of course, high acceleration has long been known to reduce running times)
European trains are also cramped (in the UK the loading guage is less than that of an IRT car!), bouncy and they completely disintigrate in an accident. When it comes to trains, Europe is not someone we should aspire to.
I don't think you are correct in your statement Mike. Which county's rail system should you aspire to? After Europe comes the far east. Not much left after that.
Simon
Swindon UK
We should aspire to our own rail system of 50-60 years ago.
Now that would be good !
Simon
Swindon UK
One must forgive Jersey Mike. He substituted broad, sweeping generalizations for facts when he wants to say something but has no real information to support his point of view.
I have more information than you do as the only things you post are insults and attacks. Hey, how'd it feel getting shot down with my little acceleration for a given distance and speed statement?
I would accept Steve's credentials as a railroader over yours any day.
Well if TD ever actually provides contradictory information feel free to take it more seriously.
A TD is better than a FUMBLE!!!
Oh, is that so? You posted nothing of fact or substance. Where did you get the 1/2 mile figure? Where did you get the 60 MPH? Those aren't hard numbers, mike, are they? They are just your estimates based on nothing more than your small mind's estimation of some large distances. The fact that someone else came up with a formula based on two or more variables says nothing more than there is a relationship between accelleration and distance. It gave no specific information - much like your post gave no specific information.
Now if you think you have more information than I do, that's one mistake. If you think you have more knowledge on the subject, that's your second mistake. If you keep trying to one-up me. mikey, that'll be your third mistake.
I got the distance from mile markers and the speed from the cab speedometer. It is a better estimate than nothing at all which was the figure that you provided.
How do you get a 1/2 mile from mileposts?
Ardmore it as MP 8.5
While you are working at showing everyone how smart you are, why don't you explain to us how the load sensor on the M-3 compensates for passenger load. Feel free to include as little as you need to.
Let's see you come up with the acceleration specs for a SEPTA Silverliner IV first.
I can do that with a simple phone call, mikey. Can you do some critical thinking?
If finding information is so easy for you why don't you ever save the board from my wanton ignorance by posting the absolute correct answer to everything? It'd save a lot of strain on my fingers.
So what are you two getting each other for Valentine's Day?
Heh. Oh the images that conjures ... STOP! You're going to make me put her in the hole. :)
Maybe instead of Spy Vs. Spy from the old Mad Magazine Buff Vs. Buff.
Yeah, except one has a clue and the other has a foamerglass. Won't choose which side's got which though. Heh. I find it quite amusing though at how them R68's handle JUST like an SD80MAC with 150 carloads. (grin)
Have handles, have unlimited power ... yeah ... :)
I am no railfan or techie but I bet they don't brake the same.
Heh. Got a few grams of PROFF in that handle bag, bro? :)
What is that? One of those old time hippie drugs or one of those rave drugs?
Heh. Worse ... it's a TA drug ... as we all know, an SD80MAC can only run in A division tunnels. :)
Maybe its a good idea for the two of them to get together. Its going to be lots of fun.
Mike, for me it is just that easy. One phone call, superintendent to superintendent. However, as you've demonstrated time and time again, you are not interested in information. People tell you that the NYC subways are known as NYCT and you argue. I tell you that a trade magazine stated that the LIRR is going to reconfigure the Queens interlocking and you argue. Need I go on? You need to do some growing but until then, I choose not to deal with you anymore.
I never had any doubt that finding the information is easy for you. In fact it was my point. You have all this access to information yet all you ever post is insults. Even in this thread you have not posted one figure relating to the acceleration of any railroad vehicle. At least I came up with a perfectly correct lower bound figure for a typical DCEMU. Post the info and I won't argue with you. Saying that I am just wrong won't cut it. Post the info and you'll get no arguments from me. Post insults and you will. I never argue with the facts you present. I never said that the subway wasn't called NYCT, only that it shouldn't be called that. I didn't dispute that QUEENS was in for a $19 million overhaul only that you shouldn't act like an ass and just give me a straight answer. The truth is that you don't care about helping answer people's questions. You're just a nasty jerk who enjoys tripping people in the lunch room.
Why is the acelaration on railroads so darn slow?
Just as a reminder, the weight of the train versus the power produced by one (or two) of its locomotives can make a difference.
I've seen that ALP-44's on NJT take a little time to reach even 10mph, but after a minute they can zoom.
EMU's are the best at accelerating, as experienced in NJT's Arrow III cars, because they don't have locos to produce power, but each car to move.
Can't they do something about it?
Wait until the old rolling stock retires and wait for the new ones.
I can't wait until the new ALP-46's come out on NJT which is capable of producing more power than the ALP-44's, but I don't know about acceleration.
Yes, to add, long distence high speed trains have much higher a gear ratio. This allows higher speed. A higher gear ratio also hampers acelaration. Rember these are long distence trains and the stops are far apart. They do take a while to reach speed. A low gear ratio means a high rate of acelaration but a low top speed.
Which would explain that NJT's Arrow III EMU's have a limit of 100mph, while an ALP-44 has a top speed of 125mph, but will never go that fast during service.
Hey, Airtrain, when you say "acelaration," do you mean acceleration, or do you mean the increased use of Acela on railroads?
- Lyle Goldman
Wouldn't "Acelaration" mean less Acela to go around? :)
There have been a number of articles and editorials about the fast, cheap clean up and reconstruction at the WTC. Everything costs less, and takes less time than projected based on usual NYC standards -- due to less red tape, featherbedding, goldbricking, and contractor fraud.
You don't need slave labor. WTC contruction workers are getting fat on overtime. You don't need less safety. There have been no deaths at "the most dangerous worksite in America." I assume the construction companies will make a profit.
The Daily News drew an analogy to new subway lines. At the WTC price we can afford them. At $1 billion per mile we cannot. That is THE issue here.
The entire WTC rebuild "community" CARES about what they are doing, THAT is the difference.
Yes, it is amazing how much work can get done and in how little time when different businesses, unions, politicians and other special interest groups aren't working at cross purposes with each other. Odds are we're getting a little indication of how the work on the Contract 1 subway line and other early routes must have gone when the enitre NYC community shared a single purpose towards getting them built.
It would be nice if the leaders could follow up on that with some other projects -- like the Second Ave. subway or even the No. 7 extension to the west side -- while the unity is still there, instead of waiting until the "Where's mine?" attitude returns to the forefront.
The rebuilding of the South Ferry line, at published figures of $1 million per day, may ultimately cost $300 million total. Of course this is rebuilding an existing line.
I just received the Dec.2001 Subway map. I noticed some "new" line in Manhatten called the Grand St. Shuttle. When did this line start? What purpose does it serve? What line would it be a remnant of?
The short answer is that the north side of the Manhattan Bridge is closed for repairs, thus giving the B and D no place to go.
For more information and opinion than you could possibly want to hear, see some extremely voluminous recent threads about the Grand St shuttle and the Manhattan Bridge.
In a nutshell:
The 6th Ave {North} side of the Bridge is closed, so the B/D run from the Bronx to 34th. They can't go to Grand b/c of switching issues. Therefore, the only way Grand St could be served is with a shuttle to the main 6th Ave line, which is what this line does. It is only temporary until the North Side is back where as the B/D and possibly Q can go back to their regular routes.
Thank you. One more thing I forgot to ask (how in the world did I forgot to ask this one?) is it OPTO?
Not 100% sure, but probably. I'm not even sure if it is a 2 car or 4 car train. I've seen it a few times but never observed the number of cars.
Yes, it is although I believe it does have someone riding at the end to reduce the relay times.
The Q is back on its regular route on Broadway
I never said it wasn't.
It is a 4 car train of R46 cars.
It is OPTPO in the sence that it has no C/R, but it has two T/O.
Robert
The concept behind OPTO was to cut costs. Last I looked, two T/Os cost more than one T/O and one C/R (granted not by much...).
I guess another aspect of using two TO's on the shuttle is to cut time. When the train crosses over to the SB track just north of West 4th, if there was only one TO, he/she would have to walk through each of the locked 75' doors to get back to the front. Add to that the possibility of forgetting to relock the doors may lead to possible lawsuits.
Yes. Well, sort of... The Grand St Shuttle is a four car R46 train with two (2) T/Os, one at each end - just like the 42nd St Shuttle. Actually, it is two four car trains that pass each other at W. 4th St.
Pass each other at W 4th?
You mean Bway Lafayette right? The terminals are W 4 and Grand.
If you take a look at the MTA's schedule (see http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subspick.htm), you'll see he means West 4th.
The reason they meet each other at W 4th is that for the portion of the trip between Grand and just west of Bway Lafayette the trains must both run on the Brooklyn bound track (see the big downtown track map at http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/index.html).
Saturday I was at W4 St waiting for the F. I noticed a Grand Street Shuttle come into W4th on the Uptown Express Track, go into the tunnel north of the station, Change ends and come back south on the downtown express track going back to Grand Street.
Maybe that's what he meant by trains passing.
No, I meant what I said and I said what I meant* - they pass each other at W.4 St. Train 1 leaves Grand St on 3 Track (SB Exp), stops at B/L on 3 Track, crosses over to 4 Track (NB Exp), stop at W.4 and discharges. While Train 1 empties and goes into the relay, Train 2 leaves W.4 on 3 Track going to Grand St. Train 1 now stops at W4 on the southbound and waits for Train 2 to come back north and get out of the way.
* Next line and source of quote?
The Q is a Broadway route (it always was) until the south side of the bridge was closed. I am doubtful that Q trains will see service there at Grand St. anymore with the V as the 4th 6th Ave. route. Q's will and I am sure will operate to Queens as a suppliment to the R via Broadway and 63rd st. B and D will return.
> Q's will and I am sure will operate to Queens as a suppliment to the R via Broadway and 63rd st.
I doubt that.
- Lyle Goldman
Q's will and I am sure will operate to Queens as a suppliment to the R via Broadway and 63rd st. B and D will return.
No, they won't. No Q service beyond 57th St. will exist until the "stubway" is built. The Q/Broadway tracks on 63rd. St. are not designed to serve Queens, and they won't in any capacity.
The Q/Broadway tracks on 63rd. St. are not designed to serve Queens
Well, the tracks actually are connected, but I doubt they'll get used.
What this line also does is running very mad slooowwwwwwwww!
You know, since the Grand Street Shuttle runs along the Sixth Avenue Line, shouldn't it have an orange S sign, rather than a gray one?
- Lyle Goldman
Probably, but I believe the problem is that the orange S was just used right up until the introduction of the V as a "6th Ave. Shuttle" from (if I remember correctly) 34th St. to 2nd Ave.
The grey S for the Grand St. Shuttle was also used during this time. (I guess this means that one could have transfered at Broadway-Lafayette from the S to the S!)
So, after the V was introduced, they just kept the Grand St. Shuttle as the grey S, rather than cause confusion by changing it to the orange S, a symbol which until recently had signified a different route.
Ferdinand Cesarano
The orange S ran from Broadway Lafeyette up to 21st Street-Queensbridge, basically a mini version of the old Orange Q
I should have added, it ran local like the current V
The cars don't even use the grey "S" bullet. They simply say "Shuttle" on each end, and the LCD signs say the same thing.
You know, since the Grand Street Shuttle runs along the Sixth Avenue Line, shouldn't it have an orange S sign, rather than a gray one?
No. It doesn't run along 6th Av in midtown - roughly defined as 14th to 53rd Sts.
Don't some of the trains still have an Orange S from the last time the MB was closed and they ran the S from 57th to Grand street.
"No. It doesn't run along 6th Av in midtown - roughly defined as 14th to 53rd Sts."
Your point makes sense, but 14th St is NOT midtown. Midtown is roughly 30th or 33rd St to 60th St.
The trunk line colors are determined based on the main street of travel south of 50th Street. This way, the J, L, and M can be included.
But the J, L, and M are EXCEPTIONS. A train which went from 6th Av north of W4 St to 6th Av south of W4 St would be Orange. A train which went from 8th Av to Houston St would be Blue. At least that's what I've been told.
That is correct. If the K from 168th to Rockaway Parkway were to ever come into existance, it would be orange, too.
I thought a train coming from 8th avenue, through W4th, through Chrystie to Essex over the Willy B would be blue. However a train coming down 6th Avenue through W4th to Essex to Willy B would be orange. Why would they all be orange just because it runs on the 6th Ave line between W4 and Broadway-Lafayette?
For example, if the C was extended to Jamaica Center via 8th Ave to W4, then to the J line, I believe it would remain blue, whereas lets say the V via the J line to JC would be orange. (However if the C took the route that the B and D take, turning after 59th, it would become orange)
Just when the North side of the Manny B (Manhattan Bridge) closed for repairs...it's going to be going until 2004 when the Ave of Americas trains can finally return to their rightful Brooklyn routes.
From what I heard, the service on the Grand Street Shuttle bites ass (a.k.a. stinks like a fart mixed with fish guts)
-J
It basically smells like Chinatown, but nowadays, they're using a lot of bleach to clean the cars, so it's more of a strong bleach with a faint fish smell
"when the Ave of Americas trains can finally return to their rightful Brooklyn routes."
HaHaHahahahaaa....
The only *rightful* Sixth Avenue route into Brooklyn, would be the (D) and is would run on the CULVER LINE!Elias
The only *rightful* Sixth Avenue route into Brooklyn, would be the (D) and is would run on the CULVER LINE!
Nah... it'd terminate at Church Avenue! Hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa....
> The only *rightful* Sixth Avenue route into Brooklyn, would be the (D)
> and is would run on the CULVER LINE!
How do you figure that?
- Lyle Goldman
Take a look at the 1959 Route Chart on this site. The D trains go to Coney Island; the F trains terminate at 34th St or 2nd Ave.
See http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1959_d.gif
Yeah, but how is that more "rightful" than last year's routes?
- Lyle Goldman
Why? The F (1967-present) has run on the Culver line for more than twice the amount of time the D (1954-1967) did.
That's all I'm saying!
- Lyle Goldman
OK, the big buzz down here is the sighting of one "found-in-Europe-only" Barnacle goose. How it got here is anybody guess. Bird watchers from up and down the east coast are rushing to the DC area just to catch a quick look this this rare bird that is common in Northern Europe. To a non bird watcher like myself, it would not bother me a bit.
Now let's say a train of R143s shows up on WMATA property for a series of "secret" test, maybe as to find out if NYCT state-of-the-art equipment will work on the MetroRail. For the day-to-day passenger riding on the Metro, they could not care less. To a NYC Subfan, it would mean everyone will be jumping on this site to find out when and where the train are running at.
The common thing here is that are we subfan as nutty as these bird watchers?
Phil Hom
The common thing here is that are we subfan as nutty as these bird watchers?
Not quite. What we are interested in has practical use in modern society, in that (in your hypothetical example) NYC cars being tested in DC may have a significant influence on what will eventually become commonplace there (the next generation of subway cars). The appearance of the Barnacle Goose, while interesting, is not a precursor of things to come. Rather, it is an accident of air currents and will not influence the future of bird populations in the DC area.
But is our obsession with the minutiae of the subway a bit nutty? Probably - but then again, the same has been said about a lot of other obsessions throughout history.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I supposed the best equivalent to that was back in the early 1980s, when the Flxble bus problems forced the MTA to get some of the old WMATA GM Fishbowl Metrobuses and bring them up to New York for emergency use.
They definitely stood out on the regular bus runs, and I suppose if an R-143 somehow snuck down to DC, it would catch a few people's eyes as well -- though mainly, they'd be saying, "Hey where's my (Pick One: Upholstered, seat, Front-facing seat, Carpet, Glass end-car wall, Extra 15-feet of railcar)." Of course, given the crowding Metrorail has now, testing out a car with bench seating to allow more floor space might not be a bad idea.
It would be interesting to see that, I just want to see how far into a tunnel an R143 makes it before a different complaint is heard: The train isn't going anywhere. WMATA cars are a foot shorter than NYC's.
birders tend to take their hobbies to extremes and expenses that advocates of other hobbies perhaps wouldn't. every year, many birders go the westernmost aleution island of attu to see siberian migrants. there is considerable cost and inconvenience involved [know what a honey bucket is?]. i cannot imagine too many subway fanciers willing to travel to moscow [at considerably less expense and inconvenience] to see their subway system. so, yes, i think that birders do go to much greater extremes.
birders would argue that the sighting of a vagrant such as the goose could be evidence of things like climate changes, man's tampering with the environment, atom bomb testing [kidding on this one] etc. a great example is the canada goose: once they were strictly migratory. now, thanks to our creating great habitat in subdivisions and office parks, they stay in many places all year round. just ask anyone who has stepped into their droppings.
Cars 6831-40 entered service the week of January 31, making them the first 6800 series train to operate with passengers.
-Stef
I rode R-32 #3399 on the (E) yesterday to WTC. Heat was coming from underneath the seats and the A/C was blowing cold air.
(Sigh).....the best of both worlds !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hot air from below with a cold layer of air above -- Did it rain inside the car (or is that a better question to ask Todd)?
Hmmmm.... could have caused a thermal zone mid-car, and a possible thunderstorm :-)
I had just put that in car (on the south head-out end) for Friday AM from the pocket at 179th St. It did feel like there was cool air blowing, and I considered shutting off the compressor blower, but as it was supposed to get warmer later in the day, I didn't bother. One sign was stuck on "F", but I didn't see an RCI around, and as it had been left that way before, I figured it would be fixed whenever it returned to the shop. It did confuse a few people at Roosevelt Av.
>>One sign was stuck on "F", but I didn't see an RCI around, and as it had been left that way before,<<
That's the first thing I noticed when entering at West 4th St. Ut was a south motor.
Bill "Newkirk"
Unless there's been some rule change that I don't know about, cutting out all or part of the HVAC system is a violation (not that it doesn't happen all too often). The defect is supposed to be put on the "defect sheet" so Car Equipment can take care of the matter.
Rule 53 (a): Heaters, fans, air conditioning, doors and windows must be set as shown in orders posted at terminals, or as specified by Bulletin, Notice, or Special Instructions.
(b) Side and end route/destination signs, heater, fan and air conditioning switches, doors and windows must all be properly set by Train Crews preparing trains for service and while in route.
The last Bulletin I saw on the subject was from June 2001 and detailed, among other things, the proper way to activate the HVAC system.
David
(b) Side and end route/destination signs, ... must all be properly set by Train Crews preparing trains for service and while in route.
When was the last time a train crew was disciplined for not properly setting the route signs?
I wonder what they did with the train I saw with 3 different readings.
The first four cars were going between Canal and 179th on the E, the next four were going between Canal and 179th on the F, and the last two were going between Canal and Parsons Archer on the E. Now, the bigger question, which signs were correct??? (Yes, I do know the answer)
Another lost train.
It wasn't lost, it was running between Canal and 179. I just can't imagine why not all the signs were set properly and why 4 of the cars even had Fs!
During the holidays, an R40 N train had the inside route letter correct, but the outside had an upside down W. Was it a W or an N? Reminds me of the Mid 80's on the Graffiti depleted R40's then on the Q along the Brighton Line.
It could have been either. An "N" looks the same right side up or upside down, but if it's upside down on the inside of the sign, an upside down "W" will appear on the outside of the train.
David
There were no backwards signs on my train. Everything was lined up properly but 6 of the cars had incorrect signage of some sort.
I would have shut down the floor heat and write it up on the car defect sheet.
I was on an R40M on the M last week that had the same thing. It was Tuesday and so it was warm that day. Is that to keep people from getting too cold or too hot?
I don't know if this question was raised here but, does anyone know when the R-142As will get yellow Pelham stickers under their car numbers ?
I can understand that things are a little shaky on the # 2 & # 5 because not all of the #6400 series cars are running as I was told. At least the R-142As are dedicated to the Pelham and I know that blue stickers under #2 R-142s have something to do with brake modifications.
Stef, Train Dude, Widecab etc. you guys know anything ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The stickers indicate the shops, not the yard. I think they will get stickers when they start using Pelham for servicing, right now they go to E180.
Went up yesterday to the show. It was HUGE !!!! At least 300 vendors.
My buddy and I got there at 9:45 AM and were greeted two minutes later by Thurston and BMTman. There were at least 300 vendors and many exhibits spread over three buildings on the grounds.
Very little in the way of subway and bus material.
Missed Todd Glickman and Bill Wall of Shoreline.
Would go again, just wished it was closer to NYC
I went last year and spent 2 days there. I must say the layouts were the best, and I bought a few brass models I've been looking for.
But I was disappointed also that there weren't any subway and bus models or even some MBTA items. It was a little pricey for some of the models (ex. Bachmann HO Amtrak cars $25, Trainland has them for $10) and a LOT of New Haven, Boston and Maine and Rock Island merchandise.
The Greenberg and G.A.T.S Train Shows are both coming up on the same day 2/16-17 in Philly. At least they have some bargains...and plenty of bus models.
The Warehouse Point trolly folks had a table & were offering $1.00 rides from 3 to 6. A group of 4 of us rode one of their PCC Dallas Cars from Shaker Heights. They even let the guest have a little peddle time (no controller). It was a nice side trip on the way home.
Mr rt__:^)
Just heard from a friend of mine who works at Control Center.
Last week either Tuesday or Wednesday a 4-car set of R-143s, (#8113,14,15,16) in the role of clearence testing, made one trip up and down the Franklin Shuttle. The set was not in revenue service, perhaps they came out the Malbone tunnel to make things interesting.
Oooo I wish I was on the shuttle with a camera that day !
Bill "Newkirk"
Now that the Franklin Shuttle is elegant, it deserves an elegant visitor...
Sounds like someone at Jay street's been playing Ed Yee's BVE route for the Franklin and wanted to try it out for accuracy. :)
>>Sounds like someone at Jay street's been playing Ed Yee's BVE route for the Franklin and wanted to try it out for accuracy. :)<<
Either that or someone was playing blind mans bluff in the motormans cab !
Bill "Newkirk"
Ummm ... can anyone account for BMTman's whereabouts that day? :)
>>Ummm ... can anyone account for BMTman's whereabouts that day? :)<<
Uh....no........hey wait a minute.......you're not saying......no, can't be !
Bill "Newkirk"
Check his garage if any of the cars didn't check back in after the test run. :)
The BMTmobile logged some time this weekend, but not on the Franklin Shuttle....sadly.
Was up in Springfield, Mass at a GIANT model train show....(not much R/T unfortunately).
BMTman
Did you have half a pack of cigarettes and were you wearing sunglasses? Shouldn't have traded in the 300 for a microphone, bub. :)
LOL!!
I will be holding an Other Side of The Tracks ( Click here to visit the other side of the tracks ) field trip this Sunday, Feburary 10th.
Meeting Place: Jay St. (Brooklyn Bound Platform- First Car)
Time: 12 Noon (No expections!)
Itinerary: R38 A train to Far Rockaway. Same train back to Bway-Nassau to Catch a redbird 4 or 5 train to its respective terminus in the Bronx. Multiple photo stops will be made whenever those who attend want to take pictures.
If you have question send me an e-mail: hbeck@nycrail.com
Thanks
-Harry
Been there, done that ... AND it was a great trip.
The trip at the front window going over Jamaica Bay is realy nice & the trip I did with a few friends via a Red Bird into the Bronx on Martin Luther Kings holiday was also great.
So I say join my friend Harry for a grand time !
Mr rt__:^)
Honestly,I think there should be some sub/bustalk collabaration on this, because (I live in ROCKAWAY) just taking a train there& back sucks. I think that we should walk to the FAR ROCK LIRR sta (It's not THAT bad). From there, we can take a FAR ROCK train directly to ATLANTIC ave. E-MAIL me, and tell me your ideas.
Different strokes for different folks ... I like the bus ride on the N33 to Long Beach where you can catch the LIRR back, but Harry is going uptown from Far Rockaway. The trip over Jamaica Bay is good enough to enjoiy it twice ;-)
Mr rt
Thurston's response basically sums up how I feel. I am purely a railfan, riding over Jamaica Bay is always spectacular.
-Harry
There are three buildings being put up bewteen broad channel and the north channel bridge. What is the purpose.
Beside the NYC, SIRT,Boston Blue Line Heavy Rails, LACMTA Blue Line and SF Muni L&N Light Rail Lines. Doesa anyone know where else can you take Rapid Transit to the Beach. Sydney Bondi Line will open to Bondi Beach Next Year, and Melbourne has both Light and Heavy Rail to the Beaches. Hong Kong and Singapore goes to the Sea but no beaches. Chicago Beach is on a Lake, It has to be a Salt Water Beach, Oceans, Inlets, Bays and Seas and Gulfs are allowed. No Fresh water Beaches.
>>> Beside the NYC, SIRT,Boston Blue Line Heavy Rails, LACMTA Blue Line and SF Muni L&N Light Rail Lines. Doesa anyone know where else can you take Rapid Transit to the Beach. <<<
You have to subtract the LACMTA Blue Line from your list. It goes to downtown Long Beach where there is a commercial harbor. There is still quite some way to go by bus till you get to a bathing beach.
Tom
The LACMTA Green line goes to El Segundo after the airport -- not sure quite how near the beach the station is, but El Segundo is on the coast.
It ends 2/2 miles from the beach, does not even get to Sepulvada/PCH. Blue Line is 1 1/2 blocks from the Beach
I believe Rome commuter rail goes to the beach at Ostia.
That is a Commutter Rail, Just Like the run from London to Brighton, I am asking about a city/County Transit Line
You confused me because you mentioned Melbourne heavy rail. That is not a subway -- Melbourne has no proper subway, just commuter rail and trams.
Melbourne does have local subway rail line, especially the one that just goes around in a loop. I rode it 2 years ago, and the longest line only goes 30 miles on the bay line
What beach does SIRT access? Years ago it went to South Beach, but no more.
The beach in the vicinity of "Atlantic" and "Nassau" as well as Tot'n'ville. The beach, IIRC--and my best friend that lives in Prince's Bay may be able to correkt me if I'm wrong--is to the EAST end of the island.
Stuart, Rline86 and SIRTEltingvilleMan
The LIRR goes to Montauk.
The Tyne & Wear Metro in Newcastle (England) goes to Whitley Bay, Newcastle's seaside suburb. Mind you, on England's northeast coast it's a pretty cold place for swimming.... But the North Sea is salt water all right.
Still is a Beach on Salt water, and you could go there
Catania Sicily Ferrovia Circumetnea Metro line emerges from a tunnel to ride on top of a seawall along a beach. See www.metropla.net/ for further details.
I just wanted to post some Photos here. A few were night shots taken at Princeton Jct. New Jersey.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/NASSAU-N.jpg
Here is a night shot of the former PRR NASSAU tower.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/NASSAU-N-2.jpg
Here is NASSAU from another angle.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/PJ&B-Dink.jpg
Here is a magrinal shot of the dink. The lack of a tripod made taking these shots difficult.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/NH85.jpg
A patriotic Amtrak AEM-7 #902 in October.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/NH87.jpg
An Amtrak AECLA Express at New Haven, making just another station stop.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/AUSTIN-1.jpg
SEPTA's AUSTIN Tower at Chesnut Hill West. Taken during Dec. Subtalk field trip.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/AUSTIN-2.jpg
Another view of Austin.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/SEPTA_336-CHW.jpg
SEPTA Silverliner IV #336 at Chesnut Hill West terminal.
www.wesleyan.edu/wsa/sps/SEPTA_112.jpg
SEPTA Silverliner IV #112 entering the Chesnut Hill East terminal.
Cool
How did you get access to the low level platform at PJ?
Its a nice shot though.
Shouldn't that MU have its light on? Its at night.
It wasn't the lo-level platform. I just went down to one of the parking areas that directly bordered the RoW on the north side of the station. The MU is laying over as the engineer changes ends for the return trip back to Princetown. My camera was on top of one of the yellow concrete posts that seperated the parking lot from the RoW.
Nice shots, Mike. The last two look vaguely familiar.
Mike
Bob
Mike
Bob
today i happened across some o' the economic forum protesters downtown, and followed them up past union sq., going up park.
Then, rather oddly, the group threw the police following them a loop and got on the uptown 6 at 23rd! there were only perhaps 20 of them, with at least 50 cops. half the cops followed, half stayed upstairs.
The group dwindled a bit heading north, and everyone was delayed at 59th street for reasons a bit beyond most. Most of the riot cops got off, and were exchanged for what looked like a smaller group of normal transit cops. The group got out at 77th.
I'll post a link with Photos and a wee little writeup of all this tomorrow.
...and i thought it'd be a dull day.
Was the New Utrecht Avenue station ever a trolley terminal? There are a couple of trolley poles in front of the station, and the station is built on an angle that would allow trolley cars to stop directly in front of the building.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin....I believe the 16th Ave. carline terminated there at one time, but the Cortelyou Rd. trolleybus line definitely ended its run at this location until Oct.31, 1956. If I'm not mistaken, there was also a minor maintenance facility here for the coaches as the line was not physically connected to the rest of the TB system in Brooklyn.
Carl M.
The B-23 bus now handles what was once that Court-tell-you *lol* TB route. :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Those trolley poles were last used by the Cortelyou Road trolley bus, first one in Brooklyn, and the first to go, the same day as the last trolley cars.
In addition to the trolley coach loop, there was a little maintenance pit to do light repair on the coaches.
The Cortelyou replaced the 16th Avenue car line, so this same location may have been used for the trolley cars.
The last electric bus in Brooklyn was in July 1960 on Routes
B-47 Tompkins Avenue
B-48 Lorimer Street
B-57 Flushing Ave
B-62 Graham Ave
B-65 Bergen Street
The B-45 St Johns Place was converted to buses in 1945
The B-23 and the last trolley routes in Brooklyn B-50 and B-68 did indeed end service on the same day
Thank You
The B-45 St Johns Place was converted to buses in 1945
No, I think it lasted until 1958 or 1959. It wasn't even converted from streetcar to bus to trolley bus until after WWII.
The B68 Coney Island Ave. ended trolley service on Nov 30, 1955, replaced with the bus that still uses that number. The last two trolleys in Brooklyn, which last ran on Oct 31, 1956, were the B50 McDonald Ave. (not replaced by bus) and the B35 Church Ave. (replaced of course with the bus that still uses that number).
The part of the McDonald Avenue line north of the 16th Avenue Loop was replaced by an extension of B69 Vanderbilt. Before it was split, McDonald-Vanderbilt was a through route.
So was the Coney Island Ave-Smith St Line once one Route
Sorry my error The B-45 was converted to buses in 1959
Thank You
There may have been an accident with the Downeaster today. The MBTA Web site transit update page has the following notice about commuter rail service:
"Haverhill train (2216) 15mins delay due to Amtrek train accident shuttel bus from lawrence inbounding North station." (Their spelling!)
The Downeaster runs on the Haverhill line inbound to North Station.
Yes, I've heard whisperings of this. I heard a person was struck by the Downeaster.
It was in this morning's Boston Globe. A "12-9" near Lawrence, MA, which held up the train for two hours.
I'm coming to New York City to pick up some items I recently purchased (wish I could buy an R33 "Bird", but, oh well). How is taxi service at Westchester Square station in the Bronx)
Do the words 'slim' and 'none' mean anything to you?
Thank You
There are a few buses, though. You may want to check out here to see which buses run there. Personally, I have never paid for a taxi in my life. Mass transit buff 'til death. If you really want a cab, call 718-733-1111. That's Kiss cab service. They're pretty good. Many people I know take them, and they come quickly. Best of .uck.
The AP story on Bob Diamond's Brooklyn Trolley has been published on CNN.com, complete with photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It also made the Sunday Advance here in Staten Island.
I thought it was cable cars that were associated with San Francisco, not streetcars. That picture window PCC looks very nice too.
-Robert King
They have trolleys (LRV) in San Fran as well as the cable car. Heck NYC and Washington DC had cable car system.
So did a host of other cities. Denver and Chicago had cable cars at one time, and Seattle had them as late as 1940, IIRC.
Wasn't there a thread here a few months ago that claimed that a barge smashed into the pier where these trolleys were and they were destroyed and the whole project was called off? I thought it sounded really odd at the time... Does anyone recall this?
Yeah, that's old news. The trolleys were not destroyed, just the pier. The latest news is that NYC DOT is threatening to drop Bob's funding because of failure to pony up $90,000. You've been off the board a while?
The two cars he has 100% restored are "Stuck" in his warehouse (Carhouse?) because the tracks and overhead leading to/from it were damaged when the tug hit it.
Ok, thanks for the update. I'm glad this project wasn't totally destroyed by the tug.
No, I've been here, just must have missed the updates to that barge story.
Shame that the DoT has to hand over more red tape to this stellar cause!
I sent a letter to Marky Markowitz, new prez of Brooklyn, urging him to push the powers that be for the releasing of funds for this VERY worthwhile project. Markowitz already supports the venture, and hopefully more fuel to this trolley fire will ignite the spark of the money for this project.
The AP story on Bob Diamond's Brooklyn Trolley has been published on CNN.com, complete with photos.
Good! That's more bad publicity for the DOT, and hopefully will embarass it into backing down from its ridiculous stand.
And the rumors are flying...
N line to become Midnight OPTO to 36 St; W to run to Astoria
N to become Midnight and Weekend OPTO to Pacific; W to run to Astoria.
Anybody hear any others?
Sure ... why the "N" not? Cabs removed and replaced by buttons. "Press desired station - doors will close automatically." :)
When will this happen? When the W becomes the only train to CI?
Fred, as I said before, I am only in favor of this as long as the W is the only train there, once the N goes back, the B/W should be cut back again.
Why should the "B" or "W" be cut back when the West End sees more riders than the "N"?
I have always wondered which got more riders and was going to ask that in a separate thread. I have always been one to believe the spur with the most passengers should always be the one that has thru service. If West End does have more than Sea Beach, then the N needs to be the one cut back (sorry Fred, even though SB is far better for railfanning than WE, we aren't the only people on the subway). It just seems since the beginning of time, the West End has been cut back, it would be logical to assume it had fewer passengers.
I used to live next to the West End, and even *I* liked the #4 BMT much better. However, during the last 20-30 years, the Borough Park town of Brooklyn has seen a TREMENDOUS population explosion, mostly due to vast numbers of Bobover Chasidim populating the area. This is one reason why the Mary, once originally diverted as a 'temporary' measure from the Brighton Line, has remained on the West End for the past 16-17 years.
Slowly, but surely, the number of trains signaled "B" increased from 19 to 21 to 23 to 24 to 26 before the bridge flip. This was West End service, IN ADDITION to Mary service. The only reason why there are 20-21 "W" trains is due to the fact the "W" serves Astoria and the Broadway BMT as well as the "N", as well as the extra service on the Broadway BMT.
I heard nothing of the kind, but if it's true, this is due either to the Stillwell cutback, or because the West End sees more passengers than the Sea Beach, according to the TA's own figures.
Well since the W is at some point going to become the only train serving Coney Island, it would make sense for it to run to Manhattan all the time. In fact many of us were wondering what was going to happen with service to Manhattan when the W becomes the only train to serve Stillwell. I guess this could be what happens. But if so, the W has to run local through the Montague Tunnel and the weekaday N should return to Manhattan Bridge and run express.
I think I could live with that.
Yes, I heard that too. I hear so many rumors over the course of time, I simply don't want to report them since most turn out to be false. The reasoning behind this one is while the N terminates at 86th St., the TA wants to make the W as the primary 24/7 Astoria to CI service. In effect, swapping the current N & W service plans.
Does that also mean that the W is going become local and the N is going to be restored as an express over the bridge. Don't forget, the late night R doesn't run past 36th Street. so if the W runs over the bridge at night, what's going to make all the 4th Avenue and Broadway local stops when the R is not in service?
We'll see what happens when the work programs and timetables come out. All the "i"'s will be dotted and all the "t"'s will be crossed.
I would imagine that when the N is running to 36th or Pacific, the W would go local via tunnel to replace the N. The bigger question is this: when the N is running to Astoria, will they revert to the way they are today or will the W be all local via Montague 24/7? If that part is swapped, the West End passengers with the higher ridership will scream bloody murder while the Sea Beachers will be estatic! Think of it: a war over trackage rights between the Sea Beachers and West Enders!
>>>Think of it: a war over trackage rights between the Sea Beachers and West Enders! <<<
Sound like something that's been going on around here for quite some time/ 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If they run the W local via Montague 24/7, it makes for much simpler operations and much less confusion. Service should be as consistent as possible. If the W is going to run local, it should always run local because if people who board at Broadway and 4th Avenue local stations on weekdays see W, they may expect to get one. Riders shouldn't have to play guessing games as to whether or not a train is running local or express, and let's hope they won't have to in this case.
If they make the W run local on 4th Ave as well, then the M should return to being express on 4th Avenue. This way, there will be extra cars to service 4th Ave local, however, the W is already a sardine can by 36th. Either way, if a W or M runs express, the switch north of Pacific will be needed so that one can stop at Dekalb and continue to Montague.
Hey N Train, notice the Brighton boys have been giving us a hard time. Come off the sidelines and get into it. Don't worry, they're a bunch of saps who will run to the hills when he huff and puff.
Heh. I'll taunt you a second time then ... remember that the hills are up in da Bronx ... on the mainland. Rude awakening number two, the main line in the Bronx, the D, is the BRIGHTON Express. Or was at least. We haven't forgotten our heritage. No domesticar ... and all that. We'll see your puny little shuttle and raise you a four tracker. :)
"the main line in the Bronx, the D, is the BRIGHTON Express. Or was at least. We haven't forgotten our heritage"
Oh horsefeathers!
The D, as everyone knows, belongs on the CULVER LINE!
That is the way it was in the beginning (of IND service to coney Island), and so it should be again and also forever more!
Elias
Yeah, but it irks the southern division. Heh. My own attachment is that's the line I worked ...
That's okay. You're welcome aboard. The original Brighton Express, the Q, has its partner as the Brighton-Concourse, the D. And I'm proud that the Brighton invaded the Bronx. And if Fred doesn't like it, that's just too bad. He bawls that his line has been extended to Queens. He'd better watch out that it doesn't get cutback and become a shuttle.
Already been snipped on one end, easy to take out on the other and replace it with redbirds doing the shuttle thang. And I know precisely which relay cabinet to disconnect. :)
You mean like this?:
Redbirds on the Sea Beach Shuttle
Set the scrollamount to "2" and you might have it down. :)
Nah, the Redbirds aren't THAT slow.:-)
Nope ... on the SeaBiscuit, they'd assume the position. "scrollamount=1" ... it ain't the TRAINS that make it slow, it's the run ... can't wrap it if you gotta look out for Chevies on the tracks. :)
Let's see:
Redbirds on the Sea Beach Shuttle
You ain't lying!:-)
Now that's about the speed of the Slow Beach.
There's those cool graphics again!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the coolest s***, how do you do that?
Go to the "View" pulldown menu and click on "Source". The codes are all there. You can cut and paste to Notepad or Wordpad and print it out for future reference.
Forget the message, I love the presentation!!!!!!!!
Actually, the Brighton-Concourse is the manifestation of what the BMT would have done on its own were it not for cheap political hacks that prevented it from doing so in the 1920s.
The five cent fare was the real killer, but I still think the BMT wouldn't have bothered going to the Bronx. At least the city finally built them their line. :)
It was planned to go as far as 155th/8th. Just a jump away!
That's Manhattan ... like I said, the BMT would have never come to the Bronx unless the IND *made* them do it in 1967. :)
And even our Brighton locals have been dustin' your Slow Beach under Broadway for the longest time.
Hey, that's only because the Q and the W are express. Let's kick the W out of the MTA, throw Q onto local, and shove the N as express. Let's see how your "Brighton locals" will contend with our R32s...
I merely stated the hard facts. Send your wish list to the MTA. I'm sure they'll give your wishes the respect they deserve.
If the W,N and M runs express to Pacific and the W and M has to go through the Montague tunnel, wouldn't that cause a massive delay on whatever uses that line? I've rode that line before and the W can barely keep up with the Q, N and R as it is. So running the W local would be suicide unless were talking about switching N, Q and R service also. Long to short a West end express/Bway local W = delays.
>>RUMOR - OPTO on the Sea Beach<<
Sea Beach Fred is gonna get his pepperoni in an uproar when he hears this !
Bill "Newkirk"
Ssssssshhhh, he'll wake the San Andreas with this bombshell, and I want no problems next month when I fly out to the left coast!
You can imagine what is going through my mind right about now. I don't like hearing crap like this. I hope these are just that, rumors. But where there's smoke there is fire and I am a little bit worried about this. Needless to say, I'm also good and PO'd.
No Comment, and Fred Love s his Sea Food especially Calamarri over beef or pork
I hear you! But I am told that effective 9/8/02 (after the summer tourist season), the Stillwell rehab will be in full force. The only line going to Stillwell will be the West End Line. Because of that, the TA does not want the only line to Stillwell being a Pacific St. shuttle on the weekends and a 36th St. OPTO shuttle on the midnites. Hence, a complete 24/7 service pattern swap between the N & W.
Then my question Bill is what will be the route of the N train? Does it even run on the Sea Beach tracks or is it confined to Astoria and Manhattan?
The N will keep it's current route via the Sea Beach line. Only the service pattern will be changed.
Equipment will also need to be considered...OPTO via R68's.
Fred, I would have thought that you would be happy about all this, as it might mean that the N will be restored via bridge and the W going via tunnel. I doubt that the West Enders would stand for that, though.
Hey Bill:
Dont you, Zman, and the Road Dogg start picking next week? How will this affect the work programs and the duration of the upcoming pick?
Bill picks on the first day on Monday. Me and the Dogg will have to wait a while.
In regards to the work programs, it'll be anybody's guess. That's up to Operations & Planning.
The M line schedule as far as the passengers are concerned is exactly the same for the new pick (rumored to be implimented 5/12/02) starting Monday, but the employee work programs have been changed. The AM one trippers out of CIYD are no more. They still put in and lay up a train at CIYD after doing their trip, but now they will have to deadhead to either Met or 9th Ave and do another half trip. On the PM tour Met lost 2 jobs and the south end of the line picked them up. We will have just 8 jobs out of Met on the PM, we haven't had this few since we went down the Brighton line! The job I have now is exactly the same for the new pick except for a different number. Some other sucker can have it and do 1 trip to Ninth Ave. and 2 trips to Bay Pkwy. after lunch. The pay is great, but it is too much road time. It looks like I'll take a PM job on the J without those skip stops and has some nice time before the last trip. There are only 58 B division t/o's ahead of me, while I can pick better, I am a bit limited due to family obligations. While PM switching at ENYD pays a bit more and gets me off the road, that place is a mad house after the PM rush. I'd be better off on the road!
It's about time that you got off that blasted M line. When I get my VR bids, the first thing I do is cross out all of the M jobs.
Too bad your schedule wasn't a little more flexible. That super super late AM job on the F out of 179 pays about 10:23. At least on the J, you'll have a sweet job paying about 9:45.
The A line was drastically changed too. All trip and a halfs are gone, the PM Showcases all get serviced by AM crews, and they may have added a job from 207Y with the deuce to Lefferts. Two putins out of 207Y are cancelled. On the bright side, file number 00002 retired tonight.
>>>...the PM Showcases...<<<
What's a "PM Showcase" ?
Peace,
ANDEE
One of the lucky 5 Rockaway Park trains they get that replaced the C service years ago. I'm sorely going to miss them.
Nice jpg. I looked on the site for others but found this:
I was wondering why file #2 took 10 weeks vacation straight up with the end of 2001 and the beginning of 2002. Could you imagine that check on advance pay? Wow.
Clocking out of the system and piping off the ship is amusing. Lag pay for HOW many weeks now? Vacation accruals, banked sick leave, yada yada ... when I left the state, the checks kept coming for almost four months at full tilt. I piped off with maximum banking. If #2 took 10 weeks off, you can tell this is someone who had more than a snootful and wanted out in the worst way. Heh.
He is a real nice guy and was working a penalty job the last year to boost the pension. With ten weeks and the pick working the way it did he could have taken some totally killer job for those last 10 weeks.
I'm sure he was ... and I'll bet that the 10 weeks thing was because he was hitting his annual anniversary date and didn't want to lose the excess ... annuals have a nasty habit of causing emergency vacations under the "use it or lose it" rule. :)
Actually, he collected a big Sick Leave Bonus, he had just over 70% and if he took any sick days, he would have dropped down to the 50% leave bonus, a significant drop. The reason he returned to work for one week after his 10 weeks vacation is that his vacation reverts to terminal leave, and he would lose the penalty portion of his vacation pay. Working one day in the new year eliminates that. He worked the entire week so the TA wouldn't fill in the rest of the workweek with AVAs, an 8 hour allowance too. Not bad for 38 years OTJ.
Sounds like he knew how to reset the motor breakers on his career then. GOOD FOR HIM! There are SO many gotchas built in, it's almost like playing looto ... glad to hear he got out intact ... that guy's seen more sheet than anyone should be allowed to without an endowment. He's obviously seen what I saw when I played there and everything in between. :)
Will they be swapping bridge and tunnel as well? Something has to run via Montauge at night.
That's right! Montague, Broadway Local and lower Manhattan.
Hell, maybe it'll be the R!
When was the last time the West End Line had all night service into Manhattan, excluding GOs and other disruptions?
If this is the case, could this be the first time both the N and R run part time?
-Stef
IIRC B trains ran 24/7 as late as 1977.
IIRC B trains ran 24/7 as late as 1977. To Manhattan, that is.
Never Happen , Plain and simple the N will be full time for one reason its Fleet has to many R 32' and 40's.One other reason is The Sea Beach has had a population Boom alond 8th ave and Fort Hamilton Parkway.Rush hours might not notice the difference but off hours does,because Most of the boom is from Minority groups and usually at around 1130 till 130 at night most N's are standing room only till 8th ave.
Never say never. In regards to the equipment, that can be changed overnight. You would simply see 32's and 40's on the W in addition to the 68/68A's currently there. Both lines are in the Southern Division, so that's not an obstacle.
Also in regards to line rumors, from the ones that I have heard over the years, 9 out of 10 become reality.
You'd have to have more 68's on the N, though. For this new plan to work, the W would have to run local through the Montague Tunnel, because the both the N and R would not be running at night, and weekend Broadway local service would be cut in half, if the W doesn't run local on weekends.
While they're at it, why not also make the late-night R OPTO?
Without a doubt, the W would be rerouted via the Montague St Tunnel in the event that the rumor were to be implemented. Also, you could bet that more 68's would be on the N (most likely 68A's) to offset the loss of 32's and 40's to the W.
>>>>>>While they're at it, why not also make the late-night R OPTO?
True, but the less there is of OPTO, the better.
Why would they need more 68s on the N? Are they the only cars that can perform OPTO?
You need transverse cabs for OPTO. In the South, that honor goes to the 68/68A cars. why everyone seems to think you would need a shift in car assignments, I don't know. The W OPTO uses four 4 car sets, ie two full-length trains split in half. I see no reason, on the midnights, why the N would need more than this.
That's true for midnights, but if they're going to work the N OPTO shuttle on the weekends, they'll need 3 or 4 additional trains.
Yes, out of all the cars that are based in Coney Island Yard (R32's, R40 Slants and R68/68A's) they are the only ones that have transverse cabs. R46's, which visit Stillwell on every F train, won't be used because the TA is not about to transfer any R46's out of Jamaica Yard.
Aw crap... this might make me walk to the West End on weekends.
Doesn't make a difference to me.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
This is bad news. But the late night proposal is how the N used to run during late nights in the '80s. The N ran in shuttle service from 36th to Stillwell, as did the B (B via West End, N via Sea Beach, of course). The RR ran 24/7 at that time.
The only saving grace for this proposal would be if the weekday N was restored over the Manhattan Bridge and running express in both Brooklyn and Manhattan. Other wise, the TA is really adding insult to injury here.
Especially to the N's paternal father--See Beach Freddo
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yes sir, I am taking this all in and not feeling very pleased with the rumors I am hearing.
In fact, very (q)ueasy indeed, huh? :(
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm not takin this too well either Fred. Especially after how the 4 has been going downhill lately.
I'd also hate to see the N remain relegated to local-via-tunnel service.
OPTO is the kiss of death (you wake up with a horse's head on the adjacent pillow) ... il muerte ... bottom line, if the N goes OPTO, OPTO is just NOT DONE on mainline. It'd be luck to be turned at the first interlock and sent back - OPTO's do not do bridge or tunnel ... they never get NEAR DeKalb, the mighty subway DNS server. :)
As a former Brighton/Concourse opertor, we know that DeKalb *is* a "root server" of chuchus ... NO OPTO shall pass ... heh.
Speaking of OPTO, there is a marker near the south end of the southbound E/C platform at Spring St that says 4/6/8/OPTO.
Has the C ever run OPTO?
There was a plan in place to run the C OPTO during the weekends between 168 St and WTC. The weekend extension to Euclid Av killed that idea.
I guess was Selkirk means is that my Sea Beach could be in a lot of trouble. At least I think that's what he means. Ever get the idea this Selkirk guy is a strange cat?
... and if the Sea Beach is in trouble, so is the N train... those bas*ards...
Nah, Unca Selkirk had done a 26 hour shift and had gotten a bit stupid from lack of sleep. Bottom line is if the N were to go OPTO, it would not be running the main line in all likelihood and would have become a modern equivalant of the Culver shuttle, running only on its own line and parking on the main line only for transfers, then go back. I couldn't see OPTO running up and down a main line ...
I noticed you wrote "Brighton/Concourse" and not the other way around. As you are a Bronx man, I must say you are a classy guy. You know the Brighton is the best. If it was the C line, I'm sure you would have written "Concourse/Fulton".
As much as I'd love to take credit for "claayaass" that's what the line was called - "Brighton/Concourse" ... maybe it was just because I started my day out of Coney on both half shifts. Though it was also my home line on the 205th St end, I started work at BB ... but aside from the occasional crappy weather day, it was a nice run. I felt sorry for my counterparts on the CC and all those stops ... and the CC was "8th avenue/Concourse" to us. The "C" came later. I had blown town by then.
The southern routing is listed before the northern terminus.. that's cute!]
N Bwy
Well, the BMT favored the southern terminus in its day. In fact, the R-1s which ran on the Sea Beach in 1931 had the southern terminus displayed on the upper destination curtain of their side sign boxes and the northern terminus on the lower curtain.
Did the Triplexes follow this practice?
I really feel sorry for you guys: Go N Train and #4 Sea Beach Fred. But it still doesn't make a difference to me.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Not now, but since the N and W both service Astoria, you never what'll happen up there if changes are made down here...
I just hope they don't remove the W.. because the service is so much better than before.
N BWY
The only saving grace for this proposal would be if the weekday N was restored over the Manhattan Bridge and running express in both Brooklyn and Manhattan. Other wise, the TA is really adding insult to injury here.
I don't see how that would save it.
It would be express, but because it would be running in Manhattan and Queens only during weekdays, it's not much of saving grace.
Ignorant question: What is OPTO and why is it so bad?
OPTO is an acronym for One Person Train Operation. In other words, the Train Operator does all the work and there is no Conductor on board.
IF they go to OPTO on the Sea Beach late at night, how many cars will be operated on the train.
#3 West End Jeff
Most probably a combination of 4 (AND ONLY FOUR) R(omeo)-68's
Stuart, RLine86Man
An OPTO train can never be more than 4 cars long. And there is a restriction stating that 2 car trains are not permitted on main line tracks with the one exception in place between Franklin Av and Prospect Pk on the Franklin Shuttle. Do the math, and there's your answer.
If two car trains are not permitted on mainline tracks, how do they run the revenue collector?
That's what their rule says in the rule book. If I were to take out 2 R32's on the mainline, I'd be toasted until golden brown. The revenue collector is given an exemption for some reason. Maybe because there are jumper cables on board?
Wow ... yeah ... I can see a motorman climbing down, clipping onto a shoe, reaching over and grabbing a clip on 3rd rail, climbing back up, pushing ahead a few feet, then dropping back down and collecting the wire. Uh, yeah. :)
The actual rule states that the train cannot be more than 300 feet in length. That does equal 4 cars in the IND/BMT, but in the IRT up to 5 cars can be used.
If you have 60' 6" cars can they run 5 car trains even though it would be an insignificant 2 1/2' over length.
#3 West End Jeff
You would have to switch to the express track at 59 and 36 to use those cars. Seem like too much fuss.
Why is that? Aren't the stop markers in the same spot anyway?
You still haven't noticed the problem with OPTO and non tranverse cabs?
How do you open and close the left side of the train?
Oh, that... I thought there was some other problem...
Why, you DUMP, step outta da cab, toss open the stormy, unlock the other cab, insert key, open, announce, close, then walk back and recharge. Shouldn't add much more than five minutes per stop to the schedule. :)
FIVE MINUTES?! WADDYA OUTTAYERMIND?!?!!! ROAR!!!!!!!1 :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Maybe that's why "small cabs" aren't used for OPTO. I know it wouldn't be prudent to leave a charged up cab unoccupied, especially these days just to change sides ... don't blame me though, OPTO wasn't my idea. :)
I know it wasn't....it was some idiota at 347 Madison Ave that did that...trying to save some money...hmph...what about saving passengers lives sometimes........
Stuart, RLine86Man
Our esteemed "house of representatives" have ordered up "cost/beneift studies for the value of human life" ... bad news is, if you're unborn, you're covered ... once you're born, you're on your own. But seriously, the money saved clearly outweighs the lives at peril. After all, enablers kinda contradict the OPTO theory but who am I to point at the emperor's robes?
We're talking about OPTO here. In the B division, there are currently no 60 foot cars capable of working in OPTO service until more 143's come into passenger service.
Would they be able to set up any R-32s for OPTO though they may have to arrange some of the cars in to 5 car sets rather than married pairs.
#3 West End Jeff
That can't be done. R32's have narrow cabs and staggered side doors. OPTO cars need transverse cabs and the cost of retrofitting R32's with full-width cabs would be prohibitive. And it wouldn't be worth it, when they have perfectly good R68's already with transverse cabs that can be used.
Hi
also, currently, the N is the only train serving these two stations at night (Manhattan bound). The R shuttle uses the express tracks to 36th Street where it turns around, as does the W.
Technically, they can run the N&R shuttles local, then switch to the express tracks to turn around, however, interfering with the W.
In the 1950's when I still lived in the city we pronounced Kosciusko as kos-key-oz-ko, and Van Wyck as van-wike.
In the case of Kosciusko, the conductors on the then new R-16's on the 15 Line seemed to pronounce it the same way on their new PA systems.
I spoke to an old friend about Van Wyck. He lived 68 of his 78 years in Brooklyn or Queens. He also pronounced it van-wike, and was surprised to hear that he had been wrong all of this time.
Pronounciation of difficult words has been known to change over a period of years. I don't think that makes the current pronounciation more correct or incorrect than the pronounciation of 50 years ago. It is just a matter of acceptance.
No one is going to pronounce either of those names according to their correct Polish or Dutch pronunciation (I believe more-or-less "Koshusko" and "Fahn Veek"), so who's to say what's a "wrong" or "right" New York mangling of the names anyway?
Having attended JHS 217 Queens - that's Van Wyck Junior High School - in the early 1960s, I can tell you it was ALWAYS pronounced "van-wike" back then.
New York has mangled so many ethnic names over the years that it's almost standard practice to NOT do it as in the original.
Anyone heard of these pronumciations of the following streets:
Nostrand Av--(NO-strind or NAW-strind), Brooklyn
Classon Av--(CLAW-sen), Brooklyn
Buhre Av--(BYOOR or BYUR-re), The Bronx
Throop Av--(THROP), Brooklyn
Wyckoff Av--(WICK-koff or WY-koff), Brooklyn
If anyone can think of anymore or have the correct, or close to correct pronunciations to these street names, it would be appreciated.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page...Cruising the Northeast Fare-Free!
I've always said NO-STRAND, and always been told by my friends to say "NO-strind"
Chicago has a Goethe St. which I've heard lots of taxi drivers pronounce Go-EE-thee. There's also a Mozart St., which most Chicagoans pronounce with an English 'z' sound rather than the German 'tz'.
If you go downstate, there's the town of Cairo, which sounds more like Karo syrup than its namesake on the Nile, and Marsailles, Everett Dirksen's hometown, which is pronounced mar-SAILS.
-- Ed Sachs
in prior years "gatey" and its neighbor sky lur (Schiller)
For a musician (or anyone, for that matter) to pronounce "Mozart" any way other than with the "ts" would be sacrilege. I've seen that street you're referring to in Chicago.
My sister once pronounced Union Ave. "Onion" as we were driving along Marquette Rd. to State St. and the Skyway entrance.
Here in Buffalo, which has a large Polish population, it's pronounced Kos-CHEW-sko.
We have a street here named Knoche---pronounced Ka-NO-key.
We also have a lot of small towns and villages with strange pronunciations:
Madrid - (MAD-rid)
Versailles - (Ver-SALES)
Java - (JAY-va)
The pronunciation is correct, but how do they spell it in
Buffalo. Is is Kosciusko or Kosciuszko?
Incredibly, there are no streets or businesses/organizations named for the man, though there is a parade every year down Broadway. There are two individuals in the phone book, and they spell it with the z.
In Monroe County (MUN-roe) about 60 miles east of Buffalo, you have Chili (CHY-lie) and Charlotte (sha-LOTT).
In Greene County, 100 mi N of NYC, you have another Cairo (CAY-ro).
I always said Nos-trand
As many of you know, I call the radio play-by-play for the women's basketball team at the University of San Francisco. We played another West Coast Conference team the other night and I asked their radio man how I should say a particular player's name. Was it one way or the other? He said "use both, it doesn't matter, she's been called both her whole life!". I asked again, and I got the same response. So who knows how to say one name instead of another!
George Devine
San Francisco, CA
>> ...it's almost standard practice to NOT do it as in the original. <<
Indeed. It seems to be primarily a matter of localization. Moreover, they're everywhere...
I had a teacher in 6th grade named Lucretia Cortelyou. And woe was unto any person who dared pronounce her last name any way other than "CORE-dull-you". Yet most --if not all-- of the C/Rs I hear on my daily commute on the Brighton line pronounce the same word "core-TELL-you".
And don't let the residents of Newark (NEW-ARC) Delaware hear you pronounce the name of their town like Newark (NEW-work), NJ.
You get the same hairy-eyeball stare from Greenwich (GREEN-wich) Township, NJ (it's out by Phillipsburg) residents when you pronounce their town like "GREN-itch", as folks in New York and Connecticut are wont to do.
I myself have spent an inordinate amount of my life explaining to people that my last name is pronounced like "GARRY" and not like "guh-RAY"
Carrion...er, I mean "carry on"
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
>> ...the name of their town like Newark (NEW-work), NJ. <<
Oops, I forgot. In addition to the above, some residents of Newark, NJ, monosyllabically intone the name of their own town as "Noork".
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
That was the pron. of a conductor on PATH. He must be a native Noork-er.
That's almost as mangled as the way they say "Nawlins" in New Orleans. That city is pronounced many different ways:
New Or-LEANS, New Orlins, New Or-lee-ans, Nawlins. Don't know which is the REAL pronunciation.
New Or-LEANS, New Orlins, New Or-lee-ans, Nawlins. Don't know which is the REAL pronunciation.
At least it's definitely not New Or-lay-on.
At least it's definitely not New Or-lay-on.
Oh yeah? Go north of Plattsburgh and discover what they call it.
Oh yeah? Go north of Plattsburgh and discover what they call it.
Bloody hell! Next you'll be telling me they make Gamay north of Plattsborough!
Avec poutaine ... oui oui ... they phaart in your general direction, you silly English-speaking types. :)
lol
Then there's BERlin, Connecticut. Not to be confused with the capital of Germany.
Who sez Van Wike is wrong! I say it like that. Most colonial Dutch names in NYC that are spelled that way rhyme with "ike ', e.g., Dyckman Street, Wyckoff Ave.
I've been told by those for whom Polish is their first language
that it is Kos-zhew'-skoh.
As for Van Wyck, I'll try to get a definitive Dutch answer.
Correctamundo on the Polska and "WIKE" is the correct Dutch ... Plenty of Van Wyck's up here in Smallbany and they all say it the same. Don't let the inexperienced dip your wick. :)
You mean, dip your wike.
Only when not doing two toots through it. :)
>>>I've been told by those for whom Polish is their first language
that it is Kos-zhew'-skoh. <<<
I've never been able to figure how the Duke U. coach, whose name I can't spell, gets "Sha-shev-sky' out of a name that begins with Krz.
ww.forgotten-ny.com
I think the "rz" combination is like an "sh". I had a student named Przybysz. My father-in-law, who is Polish, pronounced it "Pshibish".
"Sz" is pronounced "sh" while "cz" becomes "ch". I'm inclined to guess that "rz" would be pronounced "zh", since "zz" is not used. Mind you, I'm not Polish.
>>>As for Van Wyck, I'll try to get a definitive Dutch answer. <<
Probably flat i, as in Van Why-ck, since many Dutch words use the digraph "IJ" for long y; probably Van Wyck was spelled that way originally and may still be in Holland.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've been told by those for whom Polish is their first language
that it is Kos-zhew'-skoh.
No doubt, but I find something appealing about the 1010WINS Traffic & Transit reporters mangling it as "koss-key-YOUSS-ko", as in the (now departed) "traffic is backed up from da koss-key-YOUSS-ko to da TANKS."
lol............
Well, I consulted with a native Dutch speaker. Neither Van Wick
nor Van Wike is anywhere near the correct pronunciation, which
is evidently fahn veck.
Is Sutphin Blvd pronounced with a "T" or is the "T" silent?
I grew up near it and was taught it was a silent "T".
I was also taught that the "T" in "often" was also silent. So which is it. I hear the "T" being pronounced in commercials when the word "often is used, it grates on my ears.
Anyone Please?
avid
Never heard Sutphin pronounced without the "T" during all the years I lived in Queens.
>>> I was also taught that the "T" in "often" was also silent. <<<
That one is like whether the "r" in New York is silent. :-)
Tom
I guess we must look to the English for a guide through their language.
often , old english , oft, ofttimes, knife, sword, knuckles
forecastle fortnight
and they still speak that way.
How come when they sing (the Brits) they don't seem to have much of an accent?
avid
From dictionary.com: often
Usage Note: During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often. In this way the consonant clusters were simplified and made easier to articulate. With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the t in often, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as soften and listen, the t generally remains silent.
(I read this as: "using the t sound in often is wrong, but so is correcting someone about it.")
(d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often
Just makes me realise how inconsistent I am - handsome definitely has a d, handkerchief doesn't, consumption only has a p if it is a nasty disease. Oh and I like the t in chestnut and often!
James, are you in a major metropolitan area? If so, how long? If not, how many changes of locale have you made?
avid
I hadn't realized there were somany lost consonant sounds.
Do you think it was due to the many dialects or mixing of other germanic and celtic words into the language of that time period?
avid
This happened to be at the time of the Great Vowel Shift, when the pronunciation of vowels changed in English. That's why it sounds so different in relation to continental European languages.
My mother has always pronounced the "t" in "Christmas" as well as the second "l" in "Lincoln". That's what happens when your native tongue (Lithuanian in this case) has no silent letters at all. It's a phonetic language; what you see is what you get.
How about Houston St. in Manhattan? I didn't realize people pronounced it "Howston" until my sister pointed it out to me.
Houston Street seems to be a pronunciation everyone agrees on.
Have you noticed how Broadway has changed its stress in recent years, from BROADway to BroadWAY, particularly when referring to the theater.
>>Have you noticed how Broadway has changed its stress in recent years, from BROADway to BroadWAY, particularly when referring to the theater. <<
Actually, no.
Listen to theater types. Maybe their change in stress is confined to the theatrical institution and district, but it's very real.
Next it'll be dar-LING!
I call it houston, as in the name of the city in Texas.As a Noo Yawker, I don't mind If im different.
Where as Moo Yawkas who actually live in GREEN-ICH willage might pronounce it "HOWWWstun Street"
Stuart, RLine86Man
I say Manhattan, you say Man-ha-nnn
*starts singing* "I say tom-ahh-toe, and you say too-may-toe....I say poh-tat-oe, and you say, poo-tae-toe....." :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
"tom-ahh-toe, too-may-toe, poh-tat-oe, poo-tae-toe, let's call the whole thing off."
It's funny how people can pick Northeasterners out. When I was in a California diner once, I asked for "Cau-fee". Other parts of the country say cah-ffe. She said, "You're from New York!"
Let's don't forget "Stat-Nylin".
>> Let's don't forget "Stat-Nylin". <<
And we all know how Staten Island got its name, right? As Henry Hudson sailed into New York harbor he declared "Hey! `stat an island?"
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I take pride in having taught a friend from Buffalo the proper Noo Yawk way to say "LAWN-GUY-LIN" (Long Island for anyone without the accept)
accent! not accept....sorry guys
> "LAWN-GUY-LIN"
Why do people always write that we say "Lawn Guyland"? I have never heard anyone pronounce the n as in lawn.
- Lyle Goldman
Hmm...maybe you're not talkign to the right people? :)
Or maybe you just are hearing it differently. It's always seemed to me (and lots of other people I've talked to) that people with real thick NY/LI accents always sound out the last consonant of "Long" as if it started the word "Island". No whether this is more "Lawn-Guy-lin" or "Law-Nguy-lin" or some other linguistic variant I'm not sure, though it always sounded to me like the first syllable was a LAWN.
Just say, the island
now, is it on, or in the island?
Rim shot!
And someone else was heard to say "Well, duhhhhhh!!!"
You're not from around here, are you? :)
The true test:
Is it Sixth Avenue or Avenue of the Americas?
Legally: Avenue Of Da Amerikas. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Mahn
:) =
:-D =
+ =
No, but I lived back East for 13 1/2 years and was a regular Saturday subway commuter into NYC for three. I still feel as though I never left the area whenever I fly into LGA.
>>>>How about Houston St. in Manhattan? I didn't realize people pronounced it "Howston" until my sister
pointed it out to me. <<<
Another one is Tremont, which is TREE-mont in the Bronx amd TREM-mont in Boston...
ww.forgotten-ny.com
See if you can guess the following Nassau County towns from their pronounciation of a recent LIRR conductor:
Vallstreem
Murrck
B'llmooah
Waantaw
MTvull
All mumbles guaranteed authentic
Valley Stream, Merrick, Bellmore, Wantagh, Amityville. Watch the crap!
Mark
J/K! Ya ottah hee-ah how my Oma in Bellmooah pronounces sum op dese. She liv'd dere since 1942 and dat's how effrybotty sed dem den.
Gotta love Lawn Guyland, where it's never a crime to ax (aks?) someone.
Mark
Well what about Seefid, Sagitos, Good Yuma, supposably, aks,
just to name a few, oh and not for nothin!
God, I miss the island!
That's funny because I always called it HOw-ston, never really thought about it as Hew-ston.
>>>That's funny because I always called it HOw-ston, never really thought about it as Hew-ston. <<<
The mark of true New Yorker. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
[How about Houston St. in Manhattan? I didn't realize people pronounced it "Howston" until my sister pointed it out to me.]
New York history buffs can fill in the details, but the basic thing to remenber is that the Houston (the street) and Houston (the city) are named after two entirely DIFFERENT people.
1. The guy in New York actually spelled his name "Houstoun" and pronounced it "HOWS-ton." He was famous primarily for marrying into one of the prominent New York families (such as the Delanceys or the Rutgerses).
2. The guy who helped to liberate Texas from Mexico spelled his name "Houston" and pronounced it "HYEWS-ton." Also, he was born long after Houstoun died.
And for extra credit, guess where General Worth of Ft. Worth, TX fame is buried.
And for extra credit, guess where General Worth of Ft. Worth, TX fame is buried.
Directly under his monument just west of Madison Square Park.
Exactly. I've thought that the people of Ft. Worth should reclaim his bones (and the monument over them) and transport them to Texas. That little triangle opposite Madison Square, then, could become a suitable spot for a monument to someone more New-Yorky, but just as obscure, someone like President Chester Arthur (who apparently lived around there).
>>> I've thought that the people of Ft. Worth should reclaim his bones <<<
Why would the people of Ft. Worth claim his bones? He had no more connection with Ft. Worth than Christopher Columbus had with Columbus, Ohio. Worth was born in New York State, where he served with distinction in the War of 1812. He was Commandant of Cadets at the United States Military Academy from 1820-1828. He later fought in Florida in the Seminole wars, and in Mexico from Vera Cruz to Mexico City. He was in Texas as a peacetime U.S. Army General when he died at San Antonio in 1849 of cholera. The minor military post, Fort Worth was named after him after his death by a subordinate and was in operation for only four years, from 1849-1853 then abandoned. The city of Ft. Worth started from homes built around the military post, and continued to grow after the military left.
Tom
He was famous primarily for marrying into one of the prominent New York families (such as the Delanceys or the Rutgerses).
No, the Bayards.
I've heard Roosevelt Avenue pronounced ROSE-velt, ROSE-a-velt and ROOS-a-velt. Which is it?!
The Roosevelt family does it as two long syllables -- ROSE velt, while most everyone else does it as three syllables ROE Zuh velt.
His Enronship, the Vice President pronounces his name Chee-knee, but just about everyone ignores this.
my understanding is that teddy pronounced it rooooos while franklin pronounced it rose. it's possible given their different political persuasions.
Really the best one can do is if one meets someone called Roosevelt, say it like they do.
The division is apparently between the Oyster Bay ROOZ-uh-velts and the Hyde Park ROSE-velts.
My grandfather's rather large family was fairly evenly divided between them (MAY-tis) and us (MADDIS). I understand some of them had fairly complicated reasons for choosing one or the other, but I could never get into it.
It's funny having a name people are unsure of pronouncing. I was once in a class with another boy named Paul Mates. He pronounced his name MATES (one syllable) and I was MADDIS. But the teacher insisted that HE was MADDIS and I was MAY-tis, even though we told her how our names were pronounced. Teachers can be really annoying sometimes.
How are Desbrosses Street and Laight Street pronounced?
Dez braws' ez and layt, or
day brose' and light?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think it's Day-Bras, like Descartes is Day-Cart.
No matter how you say it please spell it correctly. It's
Kosciuszko with a "Z". After many years the City of New York
has finally spelled it correctly with the "Z". The street
signs now have the "Z", the subway map lists it with the "Z".
Born New Yorkers have their own dialect, so kos-key-oz-ko
is out, with the mispeling, it's now kos-cius-ko.
Welcome to SubTalk, Old Timer!
-Stef
I've noticed this discrepancy before. The sign outside Kosciuszko's house here in Philadelphia spells it with a Z. Meanwhile, his namesake town in Mississippi doesn't. He might have used both spellings.
Mark
ANY person from Brooklyn[northern.. esspecially Bushwick] would know theres a Kosciusko ave from Bushwick ave to Nostrand ave...
They used to say Kosciusko, now all street signs say Kosciuszko,
when the last time you were there. Also check the "Map" issued
by the TA for spelling. It's a grave injustice that has been
corrected.
Aye. I've worked in the Bushwick/Ridgewood area (Wyckoff Hospital for 2 years) before, so...yeah.......and don't forget that the Broadway-Brooklyn BMT el stops there.
Stuart, RLine86Mon
Stuart,
I'll admit I haven't been on the Broadway-Brooklyn El AKA J line
of late, so I can not clarify the spelling on the station.
On the December 2001 Map it's spelled with the "Z".
But going to Flatbush with our car, I was amazed and pointed
out to the Mrs. that the mispelling has been remedied after this
many years. Senior enough in years to remember the Broadway-
Brooklyn El of the BMT Division.
-John
Mark,
Thank you for your words, pertaining to Kosciuszko.
Somewhere, sometime, we "Americans" Americanized
General Thaddeus Sir name minus the "Z". The correct
Polish spelling is with the "Z".
I'm American of American-Polish Heritage and it's an
injustice of many years that has been righted in NYC.
And this is prior to "Ellis Island"
-John
How would you say this name? Its French or something like that:
"Dawes"
Is it Da-was, Da-wes with a long A or Dwas?
I would say Dahs
It's actually pronounced "Dawz," the way some conductors would say "doors"!
- Lyle Goldman
And speaking of pronunciations, that town in Mississippi is pronounced "koz-ee-ESS-koh". Don't ask me why. (I'm originally from Mississippi, and one of my best friends is from Kosciusko.)
Regards,
Tim
Tim,
Some where along the way it was Americanized without the "Z".
The pronunciation you use without the "Z" is acceptable when
using that spelling. Without cracking nuts, my case in point
is the City of New York does spell it correctly, so why
shouldn't we.
-John S
Oh, I agree with you there.
Note that the pronunciation used in Mississippi DOES have a "Z" -- it's just in the wrong place! ;-)
Regards,
Tim
I grew up 30 minutes from Kosciusko. "Kosy", as we called them, always beat us in high school football. Their marching band was always better, too. Where in Mississippi were you from?
Keeping it on topic, I once had a dream that the SEPTA Market-Frankford line made a stop in Jackson, MS.
Mark
Hi Mark,
I grew up in the Delta, in a little town called Rolling Fork. But I spent many years in Jackson. BTW, I have a fairly detailed plan for light rail and commuter rail in Jackson and the region around it. Started working on it after I moved to Washington, DC, in 1989.
What's the name of the town where you grew up?
Regards,
Tim
Hey Tim
I'm from Philadelphia, MS. I live in Philadelphia, PA nowadays, oddly enough. I lived in Jackson too, when I was in college. I went to Millsaps. I also put together some ideas for Jackson rapid tranist after I moved to the East Coast, in a spell of homesickness. Here's my map:
This is more for the city itself than the whole region though. I'd love to hear your plans and ideas.
Can't you just imagine the nightmare of trying to dig tunnels through the Yazoo clay?
Mark
Looks kind of like an inverted Boston subway ... ;-)
Looks nice, though, even though I am not familier with Jackson in the least.
What did you use to create this map? I have a lot of ideas I'd like to get onto my computer, but my paintshop is a massive pain in the ass to use. Then again, my computer in general is a peice of crap.
Hi Mark!
Wow. Funnily enough, your map bears a couple of specific resemblances to mine, to wit: two lines that meet at the airport (I have a third one running through!), and a line along State Street that terminates at Florence at its south end. (Actually, I've moved my terminals around a bit, but this used to be the way I had it.)
My parents, who know I'm into this stuff, sent me an article from the Clarion-Ledger a while back that said that, of the 82 counties in Mississippi, people commute to Jackson/Hinds County from 79 of them. A planner quoted in the article said that, in the future, it might be necessary to have commuter rail serving te region around Jackson to meet the demand and get cars off the roads. My immediate reaction: OK, you get a whole bunch of people onto the trains and dump them, say, at the IC Depot in downtown Jackson -- how the heck are they going to get to work? Downtown doesn't have THAT big a share of the jobs in the area. You'd need some kind of local transportation for that.
I changed my mode from heavy rail to light rail partly because of, yes, the Yazoo clay, and partly because I realized that while Jackson has a hell of a long way to go before it can support heavy rail, light rail isn't totally out of the question (although it is on the scale I've planned it!).
My system, which I've summarized below (and I'm also interested in knowing in some detail how you did your map -- I'm jealous, and I'd love to do a map for my system), does go out to the suburbs because otherwise there's just no way to capture any significant numbers of trips and make the system reasonably complete.
Light rail lines:
(1) Byram station - (Terry Road) - (Capitol Street) - (State Street) - Tougaloo College - (US 51) - Madison station - (winds through Madison) - (Spillway Road) - Castlewoods - JIA-Thompson Field
(2) Hickory Ridge Road - (Northside Drive) - Clinton Industrial Park - Mississippi College - (Clinton Blvd) - (Capitol St) - (South West Street) - Fairgrounds - central Flowood - JIA-Thompson Field
(3) County Line West - (Medgar Evers Blvd) - Five Points - (Woodrow Wilson Ave) - VA Hospital - St. Dominic's - (Lakeland Drive) - JIA-Thompson Field - (Old Brandon Road E/B) - (winds through Brandon) - Whitfield North-State Hospital - (Old Brandon Road W/B) - Flowood Dr - (US 80) - Metrocenter - Mississippi College - Huntcliff
(4) County Line West - (County Line Rd) - Tougaloo College - County Line East - (Old Canton Rd) - Highland Village - (Old Canton Rd) - Fondren - Millsaps-UMC - (Woodrow Wilson Ave W/B) - Five Points - Hawkins Field - (Ellis Ave) - Key - Candlestick Park - (Cooper Rd) - (Forest Hill Rd) - Byram station
(5) Raymond Central - Hinds Community College - (Hwy 18) - (Siwell Rd) - (Raymond Rd) - (McDowell Rd E/B) - (Gallatin St) - (Capitol St) - (North West St) - (Northview Dr) - (Hanging Moss Rd) - Hanging Moss-County Line
(6) Florence station - (RR ROW) - (US 49) - (State St) - (Capitol St) - (Mill St N/B) - (Monument St) - (Bailey Ave) - (Watkins Dr) - Watkins-County Line
(7) McRaven - (McRaven Rd) - (Lynch St) - (Terry Rd) - (Pascagoula St) - (South West St) - (Tombigbee St) - (Jefferson St N/B) - (Riverside Dr) - (Highland Dr) - (Frontage Rd N/B) - (Eastover Dr) - (Ridgewood Rd N/B) - County Line Center
(8) Brookhollow Place - (Hwy 18 E/B) - (TV Rd E/B) - Methodist Hospital - (Hwy 18 E/B) - Metrocenter - (Robinson Rd) - (via Monument St and Palmyra St to Livingston Rd) - (Livingston Rd N/B) - California Ave - Lake Hico North - (Livingston Rd N/B) - (Beasley Rd) - (Angle Dr) - State-Briarwood - (Briarwood Dr E/B) - (River Thames Rd) - (Old Canton Rd S/B) - Westbrook Road
(9) Monticello Street - (Monticello St) - (Raymond Rd) - (Highland Rd N/B) - Robinson-Lindsey - Boling Street - (Bullard St) - (Fortification St) - East River Place
Commuter rail lines (with connections to light rail lines shown):
(11) Vicksburg Riverfront - Vicksburg Washington Street - Vicksburg Howard Street - Beechwood - Newmans Grove - Bovina - Smiths - Edwards - Bolton - Clinton Industrial Park (2) - Clinton Monroe Street (3) - Clinton Lindale Street (2) - Boling Street (2,9) - IC Depot (1,2,5,6) - Pascagoula Street (5,7) - Rogers Street (3,6) - Whitfield Road - Value Road (3) - Rankin - Pelahatchie - Clarkburg - Morton - Kalem - Forest
(12) Yazoo City - Crupp - Valley - Tinsley - Anding - Bentonia - Vernon - Flora - Pocahontas - Cynthia (4) - California Avenue (2,8) - Stonewall (6) - Woodrow Wilson (3,4) - Mid-City - Fortification (9) - IC Depot (1,2,5,6) - Pascagoula Street (5,7) - South West Street (3) - Monterey Road - Florence (6) - Star - Braxton - D'Lo - Mendenhall
(13) Canton - Gluckstadt - Madison (1) - Tougaloo College (1,4) - Triangle (2) - Mayes (5) - Woodrow Wilson (3,4) - Mid-City - Fortification (9) - IC Depot (1,2,5,6) - Pascagoula Street (5,7) - McDowell East (5) - Byram (1,4) - Terry - Crystal Springs - Gallman - Hazlehurst - Martinsville - Wesson - Brookhaven Enterprise Street - Brookhaven Natchez Avenue
-- Plus a fourth line that follows line 11 from Vicksburg to Pascagoula Street, then follows line 13 to Brookhaven; this line would run only in the rush.
PLEASE tell me how you drew your map so I can do one for my system! I can't figure out how to do it cleanly without having to do it pixel by pixel....
Best,
Tim
You've got some pretty elaborate ideas here. Mind if I steal some of them? I'm going to have to get my map out and trace all these lines out.
I think an extenion of 12 from Mendenhall all they way to Hattiesburg would be useful. Highway 49 was always really crowded when I had to drive it. (By the way, I've got a plan for H-burg, too!)
But to answer yours and Jersey Devil's questions, I did that in Photoshop. I copied the format from the SEPTA rail map image that they have on their website. At times I have to do a detail pixel-by-pixel, but once I have, say, a green line curve made, I can just cut-and-paste, and assemble lines like I would model railroad track. Feel free to download my map to cut-and-paste from if you like.
More once I've looked at the old Jackson city map...
Mark
Hi again Mark,
Go ahead, steal whatever you like!
BTW, something I missed in your previous message was that you'd gone to Millsaps. So did I. When did you graduate? I was class of '84, but didn't graduate until '85.
What I've found difficult about trying to do a map of my system is actually getting the text (station names, etc.) on there. Did you just use the text function in Photoshop or what?
I have my map, drawn by hand on a largish piece of graph paper, right here next to me, and trust me, there ain't no room for station names. I have a feeling I'll need a very large graphics file if the stop names are to be visible. But I should give this a shot again (in the GIMP, of course -- I use Linux).
Regards,
Tim
Hey Tim
I graduated Millsaps in 1993, B.S. in chemistry, some years after you were there. Have you been back there lately? The student center has been competely redone, and there is a new dorm on Galloway lawn, blocking the sunset. My strange subway dream involved the student center, actually. I dreamt that the SEPTA Market-Frankford lawn had a station in the Millsaps student center. It was in the basement, where the post office is, or was.
I've been looking over you lines on a map. I'm going to have to sketch them out to get an idea. Some of them are a bit different than mine. For example, I envisioned my norht-south line as running down a median in I-55 between County Line and Lakeland. I should get a map and draw them out and send the plan to you.
As for text, I have a chemistry drawing program called ChemWeb, and I use it to make my text, which I then cut and paste into Photoshop, but Photoshop's own text tool will work fine. But I can see for a detailed map (not the subway-style map I drew) the file would be pretty big!
Mark
Hi Mark,
I E-mailed a response to you (I thought we were getting a bit off-topic for SubTalk). Did you get it?
Regards,
Tim
Hey Tim
It hasn't come through yet, but I'll keep an eye on my mailbox.
By the way, any word from Gil Charmichael in all this Amtrak debate?
Mark
Haven't been watching the Amtrak debate all that closely. John Robert Smith, of course, is heard from regularly (he's the mayor of Meridian and is either on the Amtrak Board or on the ARC, can't remember which). He's a rail proponent from way back.
If my mail hasn't reached you yet, I'll resend it. It should have gotten to you right away.
Regards,
Tim
Two comments:
1. Thaddeus Kosciusko was a Polish general who assisted the "Yankee" colonists in winning independence from England. I've always felt that his name was an ancient word meaning "jackknifed tractor-trailer on bridge during rush hour."
2. It's my understanding (but from where?!) that NYC Mayor Robert Van Wyck pronounced his name "WIKE." (Didn't he also "inaugurate" the first subway train out of City Hall in 1904?)
Spell it correctly please.
As a Polish-American and born New Yorker, I have no negatism toward
the misaligned pronoucing, interpretation or meaning. All I ask
is spell it correctly it's Kosciuszko with a 'Z'.
The City of New York's street sign's now all have the 'Z'. Why not
"SubTalk"?
And as a matter of record, the twelfth of February besides being
President Abraham Licolns birth date, it is also Thaddeus Kosciuszko
natal day.
-John S
What with the TA Museum being revamped, and September 11th, do you think there will be any Nostalgia Trains this summer? They are the highlight of my summer, and I'd feel bad if there were none this year. Also, I'm hoping the museum will reopen and not become an abandoned project.
I'll see that and raise ya one - here's hoping the new administration allows the Transit Museum to turn the old City Hall station into a museum!!! (the original date of opening - 1997 - is long past)
>>What with the TA Museum being revamped, and September 11th, do you think there will be any Nostalgia Trains this summer? <<
First off, the D-Types need some more work. On the tail end of the "D-Types to the dock" fantrip last year, the "D"s died at Fulton Street and limped home.
Since the museum is closed and if the train runs, it would be a straight run to Rckaway Park or Coney Island. I'll have to check the Museum and see if anything is up.
Bill "Newkirk"
i was planning to ride the train this summer ...
now you are saying forget it ??
One half of the D's was towed home by a a train of Slants. The problem that happened on the March of Dimes trip was fixed.
John P, Trevor and I went fannin on the J/M yesterday. We shot pics of trains at Marcy Avenue, then we went to Flushing Avenue, and shot some there. After Flushing Avenue, to get to Marcy Avenue again, we got on a very special train. This train's front storm door was locked, but it wasn't closed!!! You could open it all the way and feel like your flying. I didn't want to die that day, so I kept it open with my foot, and I got these pics, enjoy! (We took the B61 to the Brooklyn Army Terminal to see Bob Diamond's PCCs and possibly get pics, the guard wouldn't let us take pics, Trevor got one though)
If these pics seem a wee bit pixelated to you (I think they are for some strange reason), and you are willing to spring for the 700kb dl, omit the resize from the jpeg name.
Nice picture of Marcy Tower.
The subjuect came up today as to whether that tower was in the same place when the Broadway ferry stub was still in service, with the two tracks straddling it.
Can any Brooklyn-ites from back in the day shed any light on that?
Dave, according to book "The Brooklyn Elevated", that tower was
there before the WB was built. I don't know if it dates from
1889, when the Bway Ferry station opened, but the same structure
is in the same place. It controlled a trailing point crossover
right next to it, and presumably the diamond before Bway Ferry
station. The ferry stub tracks would have been adjacent to the
left of that tower. Demolition of Bway Ferry stub was 1941.
nice, I grabbed the big version of the top photo.
what webpage do you use fo your photos ??
He has his own - doesn't use a service.
Good old IIS pumpin out webpages on my Win2k Pro system :-)
Hope you have all the security updates :)
Shawn.
what webpage do you use for your photos ??
I don't use a service, I use my computer. Internet Information Services working on Windows 2000 Professional.
Wait a minute ! no webpage just upload from your computer ??
like from your hard drive ??
i just landed a viao laptop with windows 2000
What you are saying is that i can upload pics from that source without a webpage ??
& direct from my harddrive ??
explain please
i used this shot from tripod ..
hope this works ...
First, if IIS is installed on your computer, it would be in control panels>administrative tools>Internet Services Manager
What I did was I made my "Digital Camera Pics" directory aliased to be called 'pics' so when people go to my IP, /pics, it lists the content of that directory.
wow & on windows 2000 ...??
right ?? hope my new viao lap top can do this !!!....lol !
You also need to have a constant connection to the Internet, such as Cable, DSL, Satellite, T1, etc. It also helps to have a static IP address or atleast a dynamic IP addres that dosen't change everytime you restart your computer. You can pretty much forget it if you are using a dial-up connection.
Most important of all if you're going to use Windows and IIS is keep up on security and other patches at http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com. You are beggin for trouble if you don't.
Shawn.
well that deals me out i am connected to a 56 K
thanks a million....
My IP doesn't change a lot, but when it does, it does.
Nice pics. Were your pictures taken too high or were the chains across the front not there as well?
The pics were high.
I was looking at a Silverliner III and there is a seam between the side body pannels and the roof. A seam not present on the Budds. Upon closer inspection, the metal above the seem appeared to be painted silver, instead of stainless steel. I remember reading something about the St. Louis Car R-38's having a carbon steel roof. Did SLC generally build its stainless equipment w/ carbon roofs and if so, why?
Everybody built using LAHT until BUDD figured out the 'shotweld' process for welding stainless (and took out patents). Thus for years, PS, ACF ant St LC built stainless "sheathed" LAHT cars when trying to compete w/ BUDD for the ltwt pass car biz. The sad history was that the stainless/LAHT interface was a great locus for galvanic action and corrosion in general when water was present. The early scrapping and/ or sheathing replacement of many RR cars attests to this history. In general the BUDD cars had a longer healthy life than the competition. (a word here for Redbird lovers, I remember with some mirth the news/slide show at a CERA meeting in the early sixties when the first cars were delivered in red--the presenter said New York had a new color for dirt. I always liked the look)
LAHT stands for?
Low Alloy High Tensile (apologies for jargon) otherwise known as "carbon" steel. FWIW there are of course many specific alloys in these various fields. I have been tempted to buy the stainless steel spec book for entertainment reading.
Let me guess....that's light reading for you??? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
light, heavy, no just interesting. As a sometimes color film processor, I learned long ago all stainless is not the same. So I am curious. It probably no wierder than reading the fine print in a RR Employee TT as to various details. And in music when I look at an album (whatever format) I always read the personnel lists.
What are the average speed limits for these two type of crossovers (the first one is a diamond crossover, but what is the second one called?):
And let's say we have a high speed rail line, could a crossover be made that would allow high speed switching? It could be maybe a 1/4 long or so, like this:
The first crossover, a "scissors" or "diamond" crossover (or "X"-over), typically has a speed of 10-20 mph. The second type (usually just called a "complete crossover" or "crossover" can have any number of speeds. On railroads it is typically 30 or 45 mph. For traisit it all depends on how sharp the turnout is. Intra tunnel I would say around 25mph, on a outside RoW you might see up to 40 (like on PATCO). All of this depends on how sharp or gradual the turnouts are.
High-speed turnouts (60-80mph) are like you discribed. They are very gradual and often have several switch motors to move the blades. The very high speed turnouts (80+mph) will have what is known as a movable point frog (the frog is that place where the two rails interesct). A MPF has its own switch motor to move the point of the frog to that in essence, the train takes the switch just as if it were running on level track.
Another aspect of high-speed turnout design is easement (spiral)
of the closure curve. With typical AAR-spec low and medium
speed turnouts, the degree of curvature changes abruptly from
tangent to X (where X depends on the turnout #) instantaneously
at the heel of the switch points.
In the NYCT system, a "high-speed" turnout is 20 MPH!
That's what I was looking for, thanks to both of you.
In the NYCT system, a "high-speed" turnout is 20 MPH!
What about at mainline flying junctions or mainline flying junctions on the former IND? Surely there must be a moderate speed turnout somewhere on the system.
Even where the E proceeds southbound from W 4th and there is the option of crossing over to the F but under ordinary circumstances each train stays on its own track, the trains go quite slowly. I can't be sure but it feels like 20 mph or less to me.
The switches south of 59th Street on A3 Central Park West are set at 25 MPH for the diverging lineups. The Rockaway Line, if you count that as IND, are also 25 North of the North Channel Bridge tracks. I don't recall anything over 25.
It looks to me like the complete crossover is more desirable than the diamond crossover as it permits higher speeds and a smoother ride. Therefore, why would the diamond be used at all? Takes up less trackage, maybe cheaper?
That's a good question, too bad I don't know the answer. In Sao Paulo, their subway uses only complete crossovers. And they really travel fast over them.
There are lots of situations where you want the crossover to take up as little space as possible. For example, just before a terminal station, you want the crossover as near to the terminal as possible so that incoming and outgoing trains interfere with each other for the minimum distance. When you don't do that you get the situation of the E at Parson/Archer only being able to turn 12 tph.
Other situations might involve a lack of space where tunnel construction costs would much higher if you spread out the crossover. Or because the tracks are diverging, either in level or in direction, shortly after leaving a station.
The biggest reason is confined space in tunnels. For a normal crossover one needs a gallery that is twice the length of one required for a diamond X over. This can lead to some engineering challenges that can turn out to be rather pricy.
BTW, any place where two running rails must interesct (like a switch frog or diamond) sees a lot of punishment from the rolling stock and as a result is quite maintainence intensive. A typical crossover has 4 such locations, a diamond crossover has 8.
Once the IRT Flushing line (7) operates the R-62 fleet, the whole line would never be the same, isn't it true?
True that is; And I will be missing those lovely redbirds. Since I 've always use the 7 to get to mah school. I will be hearing those annoying closing door chime daily.
terrible !!
Oh calm down, they were falling apart anyways. The R-62 is the best fleet ever, they are performance machines, and you are sure to get A/C and heat 100% of the time. Corona takes care of their cars very well, and the R-62's from FLushing might as well be the very best in the systems history. So take it as a blessing, the 7 lines gets treated with the best, it doesn't change at all.
It is true that the R-62 is a very good, even excellent, performer. However, the likelihood that the R-62 fleet will be migrating from the #4 line is very small. More likely (though not etched in stone) is the possibility that some R-62As (also very good cars, built by a different manufacturer with different equipment) will be going to the #7.
David
I agree with Mr. Rivera. The R-62A's are very reliable and will definately provide what he mentiond before. I'm tired in sitting in a Redbird car that has no A/C in in whatsoever. In the summer, this can become extremely unbearable. Even though I'm saying this, the Redbirds are still my favorite classic car. Maybe we can build new cars like David said with a red covering. Any ideas?
I said build new cars with a red covering? When did/why would I say that?
My solution is to build 40 or so B/B' R-142 or R-142A cars and use them to make six-car sets, which would be coupled to five-car sets to form 11-car trains.
David
I meant to say that your car-building idea was great. it wad my idea with the red covering. Maybe it wasn't so good...
The R62A is my favorite car class. I'm thrilled that they will soon be on my favorite line, that being the (7) of course! Apart from all the subjective stuff, I will appreciate the far more reliable air conditining and the much less jerky motion and brakes.
:-) Andrew
Who said they WILL? They MIGHT or MIGHT NOT. It hasn't been decided yet, except by railfans.
David
The redbirds are going. There is no further discussion about that. More are disappearing all the time into the ocean. The R142 and R142A cannot, at present, run on the (7), mainly because the Corona yard cannot handle them. So...what's it gonna be? Nothing? (7) service cancelled all together? I don't think Roosevelt Ave can handle that much pedestrian traffic. ;-D No. The (7) will have to run either R62s or R62A's. At most it is a question of which.
:-) Andrew
I'm really going to miss those Redbirds, god bless them. The most beloved rolling stock that the IRT has ever had for any of the IRT lines, especially the (7).
Sure the WF 33/36s are fun to railfan on, but as daily riders they suck severely.
1. Major window leaks make half the seats on the train unusable during heavy rain.
2. Very poor door seals lead to drafty, cold cars in winter and overly warm cars in summer.
3. Spotty A/C means that at best, cars in summer are slightly cool when mostly empty. Crush loads overwhelm the A/C very rapidly.
4. Spotty heat means that the cars are perpetually cold in winter, a problem worsened by the fact that the 7 is an almost entirely outside line.
5. Ancient window latches occasionally fail, resulting in unclosable windows.
6. Soundproofing that was minimal to begin with and has now degraded to dust means that the cars are excessively loud.
7. 40 year old motors cause very jerky, inconsistent acceleration.
8. 40 year old brakes cause very jerky, inconsistent braking.
9. 40 year old lights are somewhat dim and go out over 3rd rail gaps, making severe difficulties when attempting to read.
10. 40 year old LAHT carbodies are rusted through all over the place.
11. About 50% of all redbird end doors have broken latches, leading to doors that slide open of their own volition on sharp curves.
Whatever love may have once existed for these cars is pretty much gone by those of us who have to use them.
Dan
>>> Whatever love may have once existed for these cars is pretty much gone by those of us who have to use them. <<<
What you wrote makes me homesick for all of the IRT as I knew it in the early ‘50s.
Tom
What you wrote makes me homesick for all of the IRT as I knew it in the early ‘50s.
Don't get me wrong, I love the 'boids on a sunny day in May. If I'm exhausted and late and carrying 20 lbs. of books and it's 34º and pouring outside I'd much rather be on an R-62A then an R-33.
Dan
>>> I'd much rather be on an R-62A then an R-33. <<<
Sorry, I can't relate to that. For me the modern cars were the R-12 thru R-15, and the majority of the fleet was Lo-Vs and Worlds Fair (I) Lo-Vs.
Tom
I know I'm late, but I took my first ride on the ACELA Express between Washington DC and Philadelphia...and the train ride was especially nice AND right on time!!!! All was great with the exception of a rude conductor (and I think the cars are a little TOO bright)
I feel cheated....no one on SUBTALK in their reports mentioned the automatic sliding doors, that don't close on you like the regular cars) and the really nice, wide, airport style restrooms....or the on board music.
I know it would be expensive, but I really think AMTRAK should think about upgrading all cars and sevice to the ACELA level....more people would ride the train...especially with the wider doors, aisles, and seating space. If you stripped the on board music system, and maybe some of the other smaller amenties...could an upgrade of all amtrak coaches to ACELA style be possible?
If I could afford it, I would like to ride the ACELA myself.
The fare was a little too expensive. It was $90 for the ride between DC and Philadelphia...nothing I can afford everytime I ride, but you should do it once if you have the chance.
Speaking of luxury....i guess there are plenty of people who can afford it, the car was a little packed with people
Yeah, my family and I nixed the Acela when we saw the price tag.
Looks like Todd Glickman will have to donate his "salary" as spokesperson to help balance the books over there! (Just teasing,
Todd! Seriously, hope you didn't volunteer for any Enron endorsements!)
Well, subway grrl, I only endorse products I use :-)
Acela, yes.... Enron, no.
Does ANYONE know what Enron does(did?) other than exploit it's workers????? And most likely the enviroment????
Actually, one thing I liked about Enron (not knowing anything about their shadier activities) was that they made very large, highly efficient windmills that really offered an opportunity for power companies to get a significant amount of their power from the wind. These windmills produced 1.5 megawatts in a 25 mph wind.
\
The northern plains states and the western tier of NY are ideal places for these windmills, and also would have the benefit of allowing farmers to continue farming on 95% of their land while getting a handsome rental fee on the small patches with windmills.
There are certainly other manufacturers, so I don't know if the Enron bankruptcy will actually set back the cause of wind power at all.
AFAIK, Enron may have financed these wingmills but they never MANUFACTURED ANY TANGIBLE GOODS. And thereby hangs the tale.
All the better. Then someone else is still making them.
Those wonderful wind farms in California.......were tax write-offs. Big wind generators require a lot of maintainance. CI Peter
You are right. A lot of the California windmills are/were in fact junk whose main purpose was a tax write-off.
But Enron and others have in fact been selling much better designed windmills that require less maintenance, are more tolerant of ice, work better at low and very high wind speeds, get more power per sqaure foot at a given wind speed, and in general are just much better technology.
Early technology never quite works right. For things to become good and cost effective, you need a suckers market. Either you need "early adopter" consumers willing to pay too much for status. Or you need the government.
All the "economic development" and R&D programs at all three levels of government haven't been worth a damn. But by buying state of the art, the government helped generate the computer industry, the aerospace industry, the drug industry, the internet, etc.
I wouldn't mind seeing the govenment buying and installing fuel cells, windmills, solar panels, etc., cost effective or not.
Enron went on a windmill building spree in West Texas about three years ago, and if you drive down Interstate 10 about 300 miles east of El Paso they've got mesas covered with them nowadays, though I think the California wind farm on I-10 near Palm Springs is still bigger.
Winds are generally higher on average in U.S. in the area between the California coast and about the 100th meridian, with mountain passes among the favorite locations because of the way the wind is channeled through there (and the desert southwest area is also a good location for solar power generation, though the technology there lags the wind generation sites). In the east, the areas around Mount Washington in New Hampshire and the western plateaus of the Adorondaks would be the best locations for wind farms, but a large number of windmills would probably bring the NIMBYs out of the woodwork claiming they're an eyesore on the natural beauty of the area.
I saw several mega-windmills along the B&O mainline as we snaked through the Cumberland valley.
I remember seeing those as well. They were quite a sight towering above the hilltops.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In the east, the areas around Mount Washington in New Hampshire and the western plateaus of the Adorondaks would be the best locations for wind farms, but a large number of windmills would probably bring the NIMBYs out of the woodwork claiming they're an eyesore on the natural beauty of the area.
I thought the windmills near Palm Springs were quite an impressive sight, not an eyesore by any means. But then, you have these people who object to everything, and surely they wouldn't spare windmills.
I personally like the windmills mounted on the single white or silver pole, which seems to be the perferred method. But last year, they started putting in some windmills near Palm Springs that were mounted on what looked like old-style old derrecks.
Too many of those would start to make the area look like one of those old sepiatone photos of western Pennsylvania around 1878 or southeast Texas at the turn of the century -- definitely not a pretty site when done in excess.
Believe it or not there is substantial wind in the western tier of NY, which is not particularly a high scenery area. It's a place where farming is more important to the economy than tourism once you are away from the immediate vicinity of the Finger Lakes (which are sheltered anyway).
Great South Bay could also be a good place, though the NIMBYs might fight that one.
For a NY State Wind Map, see http://www.abacuswave.com/truewind/
The first site they put them up in Texas was at Guadalupe Pass, about 100 miles from El Paso, to provide power to the Austin area. Six months after they went in, they had a ridiculously windy day, where the top speeds were clocked at about 90 mph in the El Paso area, but 163 mph at the wind farm. That managed to take out several of the windmills in the process, so there can be too much of a good thing in the case of some wind farm sites in mountain passes (though on the East Coast I think the only way the wind would hit those speeds is if a Category 4 hurricane struck the place).
Enron owns, well, used to own several natural gas pipelines that stretched hundreds of miles from its home base in TX all throughout the Midwest. It had subsidiaries in a variety of islands and nations in the Caribbean and South America which dealt heavily with oil production that would trickle its way back to the US. Would have been a fairly decent petro business (what defines decent petrol business in this day in age???) had it not cooked it's books and used those subsidiaries to evade the Federal Tax laws for the past half-decade.
>>> Does ANYONE know what Enron does(did?) <<<
They were a trading company. Classic middlemen who would try to buy low and sell high. Their thing was to find new commodities to trade, and to profit from the new markets in those new commodities. What set them apart from other companies was how they convinced the public they were so successful at what they were doing, when in fact they were losing money.
Tom
Holy Moly!! NINETY BUCKS from DC to Philly?
Geez, I remember the days when the METROLINER trains (a forerunner of today's Acela Express) cost a whole $37.00 from DC to New York -- and if the damn thing was over 15 minutes late getting to the destination, they refunded $10.00 to the passenger (as the regular fare was only $27.00).
It's a hundred bucks from NYP to BOS as per Amtrak's website. That's not even first class.
I was planning on taking the wife for a weekend getaway, but driving looks alot more cheaper. $400 dollars round-trip compare to $70 dollars round trip in fuel and tolls.
ACELA has 2 for 1 deals on weekends.
As far as i know, the 2 for 1 offer is pretty limited. It's never valid on Ac. Express or Metroliner; it's not valid on Acela Regionals on Friday and Sunday from 11am to 11pm (prime weekend travel times) and has to be booked with at least 7 days notice. The whole DC-NYC pricing scheme is pretty confusing. The short of it is, the best time to travel is monday, tuesday, wednesday, thrusday or saturday on the Regional...$70 from DC to NYC with the opportunity for the 2-fer if you buy a week ahead of time, so that'd only be $35 a head. Sunday, the metroliner is only $20 more then the Ac.Reg though ($107 to $87).
Or is there a new promotion?
I thought there was a special AE promotion for 2 for 1 on weekends. The usual 2 for 1 is limited to all off peak trains.
I'll look into this. Thanks
It might have expired, Todd Glick(Weather)man would surely know.
I believe it has expired... it was a holiday season promotion.
I thought it was during the summer, ended back in September.
It's true. Even my VIP card is no longer valid. Bummer.
This is understandable. My last few weekday round-trips have been 90-100% full, even off-peak. Why offer discounts when people will pay full price?
I have a trip this weekend, and will see how the loads are.
When I rode the ACELA home on Sunday Night....the train was nearly FULL.
Amtrak has just announced cutbacks in maintenance, so they don't even have the money to maintain the older coaches in the condition they're already in.
They did a rehab of many of the Amfleet coaches before the current cash crunch. This included new seat cushions (and colors), ADA restrooms, luggage racks at the end of each car, and better reading lights. I think they've basically stopped that project for lack of funds. Presumably the bigger upgrades to make it more like the Acela Express coaches were always deemed to be too expensive to be worth it (especially because they wouldn't be able to charge Express-level fares even on the fanciest refurbished Amfleets, since they just can't be run at the same speeds).
While waiting for the Red Line to Cleveland Park at Metro Center on Saturday, had the pleasant surprise of seeing an out of service 4-car CAF train pull through on the Glenmont side with a maintenance crew aboard. The cars were 5000-5001,5040-5041. The orange destination signs are very bright and nice and easy to read. Luckily it went through the station fairly slow since it was behind a red line train so I could check out the nice new interiors as well. Not sure if it was headed to Brentwood or maybe heading for the green line connector south of Fort Totten. It would be nice to see those on the other lines, other than Green, but I know that wont be for awhile. : (
This may seem like an odd request, but does anyone have or know where I can find a sound file of the warning sound that is played throughout the trains to warn passengers that the doors are closing?
Thanks for any help you can give me!
Matt
matt@idorapark.org
Me too, I would like a sound wave file for my computer. Can anyone help also?
If you mean da "bing bong," I got the real deal right here ... email above's valid, I'll mail the two WAV files (one for A, one for B division) as a file attach for ya ... if that's what ya meant ...
I'd settle for a sound bit of R-1/9 doors closing, complete with "pshhht" sensing valve sound. I've got R-10 bits.
It's on the "heyPaul tapes" ... as good as it gets unfortunately ...
I forgot about that. Heypaul's tape has both flavors as well. As I've said before, the doors on the R-7s and R-9s sounded differently from the ones on the R-1s and R-4s.
They sounded the same when they #@%^&*% jammed. :)
Can I have the WAV too, if possible?
rob5243@yahoo.com
thanks.
Yahoo screws with file attachments. Send me an email - support@nsclean.com and a 'real' email address, be happy to send it. And not to worry, we NEVER "harvest" email addresses, no spam will be stuffed in any cans. :)
LOL can i have one too?
Same story with hotmail - the attachments will be lost ... email me - support@nsclean.com with a "real" email address and I'll send 'em ...
Does anyone have the Acela Door sound- the "Cuckoo Sound" Todd- perhaps you can record this for us rail fans since you ride the Acela Express.
You calling the Acela door "Cuckoo" Subway-Buff!?!?
Sure... I'll see if I can record it.
I sent "N-train" the sound file that I have of the door chimes in the New York City subway system.
#3 West End Jeff
Not exactly. I used the phrase because the sound made when the doors close sounds like a cuckoo as in a cuckoo clock. Some traffic signals In memphis, TN also do this.
We had a couple of cuckoos pulling cords tonight, messing up the rush hour. Perhaps you know 'em Todd.
That sounds an awful like another composite bit. I have one which starts out with that exact same brake sound, then cuts to Looney Tune sounds - an anvil-like BONK!, Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff, then his "Well, back to the old drawing board".
I tried the Wile E bit. It didn't sound good after I was finished. I like Super Geniuses more then Super Expresses. Perhaps TD still has his copy of the exploding R46 I mailed him years ago. How did you like the R9,courtesy of Heypaul?
A few days ago there was a segment on the Channel 7 news about Undercover Police riding and ticketing people who do different things on the subway to make money. One of which was a group of youths that would do break dancing on a train. Saturday afternoon I was going to work and I saw the kids doing their act on an A train. I think they saw themselves on TV. When one kid was announcing his act, he said that they were famous. Their act was on TV the other night.
I have seen a group of kids doing this a few times about a year ago.
I was frightened for them, as they were being extremely athletic,
throwing themselves around, and I was afraid they would hurt themselves. Believe me, their act would have been dangerous on terra
firma, but on a moving train, it compared to other kinds of stupid
teenage behavior that make us all cringe. If kids aren't smart enough
to not do this on their own, I have no problem with them being stopped legally. I'm sure they could make as much money doing it in a busy subway station with a permit, and be a lot safer. I hope someone
hooks them up for the next auditions for the "Music Underground" performers.
I was too busy holding my breath to think of it at the time!
Has any of my colleagues in RTO seen any GOs posted for Museum Car Movements?
It just occurred to me that during the reconstruction of Court Street, these cars would have to move around.
-Stef
Those moves are secret. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Why would that be?
To keep down the foamer level. Also, to avoid having the trains vandalized, thier locations are being kept secret.
Peace,
ANDEE
I should have known.....
-Stef
I've been out of the loop. What is the #7 Train extension that
Michael Bloomberg has proposed?
Same one that's been proposed, on and off, for years. Extension to the Javits Center.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks, Andee!
I read about it in an editorial in the News. It was folded in with
discussion about transit work in Lower Manhattan, near the disaster
site. I had thought they were thinking of extending the #7 downtown.
Duh! I would hope they'd make getting to the Javits easier though!
Both for visitors and employees that site is a drag by public transportation.
I go to the Javits Center once a year to see the NY Auto Show. It is always a disaster between the waiting for the bus at 34/8th and the heavy traffic to/from the exposition center.
I went there once for PC Expo. Waiting for and riding the bus over took FOREVER!!!!!!
I usually walk from the PA Bus Terminal.
--Mark
The proposed alignment is via 7th Avenue, having made a southward turn at 41st Street and continuing down to Penn Station. I am very much in favor of a Corsstown IRT extension. I just disagree with both the proposed alignment and Bloomberg's prioritizing of it ahead of the Second Avenue Subway.
MATT-2AV
I was reading at thetube.com web site that Earl's Court on the District line will be renovated in 2003. That might mean the old approaching train boards might be removed.
London Subtalkers: Can you guys take some pictures of the boards before they are gone? I looked on this site, but there isn't a good picture of them. I think those boards are cool, even though the newer LED signs are good as well.
Are there any other stations with those boards left?
They weren't approaching train boards as much as they were destination boards. I believe that I may have a couple of pictures from Earl's Court, but if not, I'll be back in October before the renovations begin. Most likely, one of our BritTalkers will supply the pics first.
I think they are kinda both. They show the destination of the arriving train. I can't remember, do they show how long before the train arrives, like the LED signs?
No, they do not show the time before the train is scheduled to arrive. They only show the destination, or if it terminates then "stops here" is indicated.
I'll try
Simon
Swindon UK
There a several different types. I shall look into it.
Simon
Swindon UK
Cool, thanks.
I think there are still boards of the old-fashioned type at some other District Line stations, but they are smaller and less complex than the Earls Court ones, since Earls Court is a junction station with routes out of it in five directions (including the Olympia shuttle).
Incidentally the renovation of Earls Court ststion has started: the escalators between the (deep) Piccadilly line platforms and the District Line station are out of use for repair/replacement, and Piccadilly line trains aren't stopping at Earls Court. You have to change off the Piccadilly Line on to the District Line at Hammersmith (if you're travelling east) or South Kensington (if you're travelling west) to get to Earls Court at the moment.
Can you change at Gloucester Road?
Earl's Court was my home station while I was in London in 1978. To be honest, I don't remember much about the boards on the District Line station.
You can change at Gloucester Road, but it's not really convenient.
My sister used to board at Gloucester Road to get to Leicester Square when she was going to school in London in the fall of 1978. I was there in late May and found the boarding house she would be living in, on Courtfield Gardens, and saw it was about equidistant from Earl's Court and Gloucester Road.
You can change at Gloucester Road, going westwards, and at Barons Court, going eastwards, if you want to. It's the official posters on stations that advise changing at South Kensington and Hammersmith -- I'm not sure why.
I thought the escalator work was not part of the renovation, but emergency work because the escalators were about to fall apart.
Could be. That's a pretty common occurrence on the London Underground. (8-(
Can someone who's done it tell me the exact cost of riding the AirTrain from Newark Airport to NJTransit then train to Penn Station? I looked on the web sites but the fares were confusing. Trying to figure it Taxi would be better.
Thanks
Looks pretty clear to me if you look at http://www.njtransit.com/sf_train.shtm and then ask for a schedule on the Northeast Corridor Line from Newark Airport to Penn Station.
It's $11.15 one-way.
A taxi is over $40 with tolls and even a meager tip.
Thanks for the info, I thought the AirTrain and NJTransit train fares were separate but I guess the 11 bucks includes both.
Yes.
Note that if you are traveling on Amtrak, your Amtrak ticket to EWR also includes a ride on AirTrain.
The Airtrain is free to travel within Newark airport, and to & from the NJT station. As an airport arrival, you don't meet a ticket machine until you get to the NJT station. The fare on NJT includes the airport's tax or supplement or whatever you call it. In November I decided not ot spend the $11 to go direct from NY's Penn Station, and I got the PATH to Newark from 33rd St for $1.50 and then an NJT bus from the Newark Penn Station to the airport for $4, saving half the fare.
Will the JFK Airtrain be similar, or will you have to pay just to get to Jamaica, even if you don't get on to the subway or LIRR at Jamaica?
I'm perplexed at the pricing system because if you look at the cost of traveling from anywhere but New York Penn, the AirTrain surcharge is $5, but from Penn that slap a $7 surcharge on you. Any ideas why? As evidence, up until a few weeks if you tried pricing the trip on NJT's point to point system, it gave a price strictly to the station (w/o the monorail surcharge) of $4.15 for New York Penn, but $1.65 for Newark Penn.
The answer is easy ... the Port Authority and/or NJ Transit want to milk NY-bound passengers, who are bound to be the majority of the passengers using the AirTrain Newark rail link station.
If you're starting off in NY, you can buy a ticket to North Elizabeth and tell the conductor on the train that you're getting off at the airport. Then pay for AirTrain separately when you're at the airport rail link station itself, since it's always $5 to get in on the spot regardless of how you got there. That way you avoid the $2 extra NY surcharge.
Never done it the other way around (from EWR back to NY) ... can you pay the $5 to get into the NJ Transit station, and then buy a surcharge-less ticket on board to get to NY Penn?
I like that, or the previously mentioned idea of buying a ticket (while in NYPenn) for NYP-NWK and a ticket for NWK-EWR. For trips into NYC, I think that in order to pay the reduced amount, you would either have to prebuy the return trip tix while in NYPenn, or buy a EWR-NWK ticket at EWR, get off at NWK, buy a ticket for NWK-NYP and wait for the next train.
Let me ask another way. Whats the cheapest way to get from Newark Airport to NYC subway system via Trains only, no buses?
I don't know if this is the cheapest, but airport to Newark is $6.65 and Newark to Penn Station NYC is $2.50. That's $9.15 instead of $11.15.
I don't know if you can buy both tickets in the same location (either Newark Airport station or Penn station NYC).
Will the JFK Airtrain be similar, or will you have to pay just to get to Jamaica, even if you don't get on to the subway or LIRR at Jamaica?
Presumably it would be set up in similar way as at the EWR rail link station, since you'd only want to charge people who are going to leave the airport (thinking of the entire AirTrain ride itself as being within the airport).
1. Some of the 6400/6500s are making a comeback. These cars were operatng on the 2 line this weekend.
2. There were no more than two Redbird sets on the 2 this weekend.
3. As mentioned earlier, 6831-40 was in revenue service this past weekend.
4. 6821-25 was at Linden Yard on Sunday.
Im not sure but I guess once all the 6400/6500s are in, then 5 line fleet should start at the mid 6700s. We'll have to wait and see.
Car desk manager came back to me today to say that the #5 R142 shift began today. No great shakes here...did Redbird Carbody inspection. What we are being told is to do our best in making everything work properly IF there is some lack of small parts. CI Peter
You got it!
I have some time left over on the Freepolls account that I used for my daughter's recent science dair experiment (BTW, through different postings, including here, she ended up with 831 votes! THANKS FOR VOTING GUYS!!!!!!!!).
Anyway, so I'm running a poll for "BEST NYC SUBWAY CAR." I've arranged the cars into broad classes of similar lienage or design philosophy rather than pick this or that specific model--i.e., Reggie Welch cars (IRT Redbirds plus R16s and 27/30s) rather than R16, R28, R46, etc.
Define "Best" any way you like--i.e., Your Favorite, The Best Designed, The Most Durable, The Most Forward-Looking. If you have more to say, you also have a blank voting box, and you can leave comments.
If this looks like fun or interesting, I'll post the results on rapidtransit.net and run the poll from there. For now this is for SubTalk fans.
Take The Best Subway Car Poll
I was at Coney Island Yard today and saw R40s #4392 with fire damage to the A/C unit over the T/O cab. The cab also had fire damage as well. The cars the signed up for the line. Dose anyone know when this happen.
Robert
I don't know, but I do remember seeing R-40's last summer which had torrents of water streaming out of the A/C onto us passengers near the cab. Perhaps water-damage caused by this improper drainage finally caught up to the R-40 in question, maybe causing some sort of short (I'm not an elecrical engineer). I can't imagine having all that H2O swishing around the A/C unit could have been good for it.
It happened in late December. The car was part of a Q diamond put-in when the fire happened at Stillwell Avenue.
David
It was reported in The Bulletin of the ERA/NYD that 4392 was damaged in late December by an air-conditioner fire as it was in Coney Island Station enroute to Brighton Beach for Q service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What has become of its partner? Is it sitting celebate or committing ADULTRY all over the system?
avid
In December, the car had a fire due to a grounded cab heater circuit. The A/C unit was not involved in the incident but the fire department did do additional 'modifications' to the car.
There still seems to be much confusion on this site as to whether it is legal for revenue passengers to stay on the 6's and ride the City Hall loop. Someone posted that he had the GO at home declaring that the Loop was mainline again and could be traveled by passengers.
Yet, every time I ride a 6 to Bklyn Bridge, the conductor spends a lot of time yelling "LAST STOP! LAST STOP!"
So, is it legal or not?? FINAL ANSWER please. And since the conductors are kicking us off anyway, does it make a difference? Can we tell them they can't kick us off the train?
Thanks.
Dave....you answer this......since you're the one who has the GO sitting at home.
Stuart, RLine86 and 6LineBrooklynBridgeCityHallMan
They yell "last stop" so people don't think it's the train to Brooklyn. You'd be surprised how many people would get on otherwise.
I'm inclined to believe Dave Pirmann on the prohibition being lifted.
Whenever a train crew has asked me to get off the train, back before it was prohibited, I would usually tell them I'd like to ride the loop if they had no objection. If they weren't feeling like being an a-hole, or weren't paranoid about supervision catching them for an imagined infraction, they would generally be cool about it. Otherwise, I'd just hop on the next train.
Since the prohibition, I've generally not felt like testing anyone.
>> They yell "last stop" so people don't think it's the train to Brooklyn. <<
The (6) train has NEVER went to Brooklyn. And the platform is signed that (4) and (5)/<5> trains are on the OTHER SIDE OF PLATFORM.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I know it never went to Brooklyn. However, you'd be surprised how many tourists and idiots would get on at Brooklyn Bridge believing it was the train to Brooklyn. Believe me, there's a lot of people who just can't or don't read.
Or who are just plain (S)(T)(U)(P)(I)(D)(!)(!)(!)(!)
And that's why the C/R's are always so annoyed at that point in their schedule.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Well said, I remember this news segment where a guy was at the MTA learning center or somewhere where they had the simulation and he was running down Lex on the express track. He kept calling it the 6 train and siad he'd be in Brooklyn pretty soon even thought it was just a simulation. So... a lot of people do not know what they are tlaking about.
IIRC, the E and 4 lines are in those simulators.
And you think people read those signs? Hang out long enough and you'll probably find someone who will tell you the 6 used to go to Bowling Green, when did it stop.
Thats true but you have people who think the No.6 goes to Fulton Street or Bowling Green.
But you're forgetting one major thing:
PEOPLE DON'T READ THE SIGNS!
But I do have to say, if i were a tourist getting on a train at a station called "Brooklyn Bridge," my first thought would be that at least some of the trains that go through there would in fact go over the Brooklyn Bridge. Unfortunately, I'd be wrong, and I'd only get at best a view of the Joralemon tunnel...
Lets put it this way, I have a copy of the order that says its legal. Since I'm not an NYCT employee, I don't really know if there's been a more recent order rescinding this one. Some T/O or such will have to chime in on that. But when I find the order I'll post it. (Might be a while, I'm in the middle of packing for a move...)
(Might be a while, I'm in the middle of packing for a move...)
Hope you're moving out here to beautiful "Lawn Guyland"!
i rode it with a motorman back in 2000 shot it on video when we did it
I did it with a motorman just last summer.
I asked him if I could rid around the loop, and he agreed.
Thanks
Elias
YES YOU CAN TAKE PEOPLE AROUND THE LOOP. But me being a T/O I will never leave a bum or someone that does look right to ride into the loop. At least not the first three cars. You have a bunch of freaks and nuts out there and you don't want to be in a tube sitting behind a red when one of these nuts go crazy.
YES YOU CAN TAKE PEOPLE AROUND THE LOOP. But me being a T/O I will never leave a bum or someone that does look right to ride into the loop. At least not the first three cars. You have a bunch of freaks and nuts out there and you don't want to be in a tube sitting behind a red when one of these nuts go crazy.
Can't that happen between stations anywhere in the subway?
Yes it can but your not between stations for more than a minute or so. Plus your on the move. When you go into the loop your can be there from anyway from 4 to 10 minutes.
When I was on the loop last week, the wait just north of City Hall (on the loop track) wasn't any longer than 2 minutes...maybe because it was during the evening rush.
Stuart, RLine86Man
yep on my last run after 10pm its anyway from 5 to 10 minutes depending on how fast I get down there
YES YOU CAN TAKE PEOPLE AROUND THE LOOP. But me being a T/O I will never leave a bum or someone that does look right to ride into the loop. At least not the first three cars. You have a bunch of freaks and nuts out there and you don't want to be in a tube sitting behind a red when one of these nuts go crazy.
Can't that happen between stations anywhere in the subway?
Anywhere else in the system, there'd almost certainly be other people in the lead car, who might intervene to stop a skell's attack - or, more likely, would be the objects of the attack. In the City Hall loop, by contrast, the T/O probably would be alone in the car with the skell.
I agree completely with what you are saying, but at the same time I have been alone in many subway cars, and no one was in the next few cars either. It can happen then also. It can even be in the middle of the day. I've been alone in many of times on an M running through the Montague Street tunnel, and that's a long stretch to be alone. The T/O has just as much a chance of getting attacked in a situation like that alos. The only difference is that you may have a chance of someone entering at the next stop, if the train is in full service in the middle of it's run, as opposed to the loop.
The deal here, it seems to me, is that everyplace else the 'payng customer' has a right to be there, in the BB Loop, you could be in for awkward questions if something untoward happened in there.
And all the bum has to say is that you were trying to kidnap him on an out of service train, because you 'didn't bother' to tell him that your train was going out of service.
Who they gonna believe, you or da bum? Huh?
Elias
What is a skell?
Skell=Bum etc.,
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> So, is it legal or not?? FINAL ANSWER please <<<
If you want a final answer hire a lawyer! As much as many on this board disparage lawyers, a lawyer is the only one who will research the law and give you the correct answer in writing that you can rely on. If he is wrong and you are damaged by his error you will be able to sue him. Relying on his advice will also negate certain criminal intent, and therefore keep you out of jail. Final answers on this board will not hold up in court.
Tom
Tom's right and wrong. Matters like this don't appear in the Rapid Transit Law or RTL. And I wasn't able to find it in the NYCRR (or New York City Rules and Regulations). The only conclusion that leads me to is that it is an AUTHORITY rule or regulation, and not really public information, even to the lowest of lawyers. My advice (from a paralegal's p.o.v.): Don't bother trying.
Stuart, RLine86Man
<< Relying on his advice will also negate certain criminal intent, and therefore keep you out of jail. >>
Incorrect. It might buy you sympathy but if they want to jail you for an infraction, your pleading "my lawyer said it was okay" won't mitigate or exculpate the criminal act.
>>> if they want to jail you for an infraction <<<
Rarely if ever is one jailed for an infraction. But if you have a new scheme for reducing taxes or making money that is pretty close to the legal line in the area of fraud, a researched legal opinion that what you are going to do is legal, provided you have provided a correct factual basis for the opinion, will negate the criminal intent element and although authorities may find the scheme improper and order it to stop, there will probably be no criminal prosecution and you will not spend years in prison.
Tom
"Rarely if ever is one jailed for an infraction."
In "zero tolerance" New York, I would not recommend experimenting to see whether a charge of criminal trespass for remaining on a subway train that you were told to leave results in your being handcuffed and locked up or just being given a summons.
It really would be safer to make sure that you have permission to ride the loop, either written permission from the TA or oral permission from the C/R.
Does the C/R really have that much authority to clear you of trespassing (if at all it is otherwise)?
By law, they DO. (21 NYCRR 1090.9)
Stuart, RLine86Man
The conductor is the boss, the captain of his train.
I thought the T/O is the Captain.
Noooooooo........the C/R is the Keptin, and the T/O is merely an Lt. JayGee (Leftenant Junior Grade, as the Brits would say.)
Stuart, RLine86Man
But the T/O can tell the conductor to hold the doors open, which stops are being skipped, et al. Doesn't sound like a subordinate to me.
That's the case if he gets orders to keep da doors open by dispatch, or if there's a Red signal aspect in his face. Remember, the T/O is the navigator. And the C/R keeps the passengers in line, as well as the passengers moving (naught!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
"Lt. JayGee (Leftenant Junior Grade, as the Brits would say.)"
Except in the British Army they aren't called JG, they're called Second Leftenant!
Back on topic, the sole employee on board a Docklands Light Railway train in London is actually entitled Train Captain (yes, it's all officers and no enlisted persons on the DLR). As the trains are automatic, the Train Captain only drives them in emergency; the rest of the time (s)he operates the doors (using controls mounted above each door) and checks tickets. But there is no cab, and the cars are manually driven when in passenger service sometimes -- the Train Captain opens up a panel below the window, in front of the front seat, to get at the controls. Which means that a passenger can actually sit alongside the "driver" as the train is running in service -- this is fun for a railfan.
On main line trains on Britain's privatised railways, the person who used to be called guard (aka conductor) is now called Train Manager. Drivers are still drivers though.
Except in the British Army they aren't called JG, they're called Second Leftenant!
It's in the Navy that Lieutenant Jr. Grade exist. Second Lieutenant in the Army is equal to Ensign in the Navy, whereas LJG is First Lieutenant in the Army.
O.K., Sub-Leftenant then!
Leftenant or Lieutenant?
- Lyle Goldman
Canada and Britain say LEFtenant. The US says LIEUtenant. I worked with the Canadian Department of National Defence over the summer, my supervisor was a LEFtenant Commander. It's still spelled Lieutenant though, don't ask me why...
Isn't T/O a more senior position?
Maybe so, but look at it from an operational standpoint:
Without indication from the C/R.......or the Keptin, the T/O or Leftenant JayGee can't move his twain, right?????????? So who do you think is more mission critical? Unless you want the Leftenant JayGee to accept an promotion to Leftenant Commander, and run da twain in OPTO mode.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Not anymore.
Well ... it DID pay a few cents more than conductor ... that's why I went for it ... and have slapped myself for YEARS after having done school car. Heh. I coulda been a contenda ... concertina ... ummm ... next stop DeKalb, we will be flying at an altitude of six inches, watch the closing doors, feasten your seatbelts, we're going light speed in full field shunting ... if I can just get that ninth car to extinguish ... ummm ... can I get a car inspector?
No anticlimbers were harmed in this rant. I go home now. :)
I would have said "Fasten your seat belts" before the CPW dash. I can still hear the conductor on that first D train of R-32s I rode on back in December of 1967: "The next stop on this train will be 125th St".
Nah ... CPW was smooth as a baby's butt even at 55 MPH ... that IND trackage ya see ... none of that BMT "geese splattering the storm door" nonsense on the IND ... smooth sailing at ALL times ... and yes, 125th meant ya had ta put down da sammich, drop the wrench back into FWD and put the lights back on while counting to 3 after pulling some air. BFD ... urrrp. :)
The R-10s ran smoothly along that stretch, too. They weren't as quiet as mice, but OTOH they weren't painfully loud in those days, either.
T/O could be a Promotion and the pay is more but when It comes down to it the Conductor is in charge of the train. When I had the honor of working with SR I had to rub it in that I am the boss.
You and dad still talking? Heh.
Yeh. I had a lot of fun with that.
Heh ... well ... if you didn't make HIM walk the plank and he didn't make you go down with your ship, then all's well that oils well. :)
*lmfao* NYCT isn't a pirate ship *hears a loud "ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" in the background on the (R) train* uhh....maybe it IS.........
Stuart, RLine86Man
Obviously you've never had a "close encounter of the superintendent kind," matey. Avast! :)
Ahrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, no I haven't ye rail lubber :-P
Stuart, RLine86Man
The Redbirds themselves are walking the plank these days.:-(
Unfortunately (and fortunately for the 142's)....
Stuart, RLine86Man
The ones I saw were in FAR worse shape than the R1/9's or standards EVER got to be. Hate to say it, but the redbirds should have gone swimming ten years ago from the looks of them ...
I have never seen a redbird in that bad of a condition that you described a while ago.
4 line and 5 line had some amazingly bad cars ... a piece that broke off in my hand was properly turned into the conductor whose eyes opened as wide as saucers. It was a piece of the anticlimber. Whoops.
how is it the conductor is the boss of the train. Half the time when Command center orders a train to go exp or bypass stops they tell Motorman and he informs passengers and Conductor just complies. Sample below
Control to 1519 7 from main st
1519 7 from main to control.
Operator says after 45rd court house square make Grand Central your next stop.
upon arrival at court house sq, Motorman says attention passengers and conductor, after 45 rd grand central is next stop. those passengers wishing to get off at hunterspoint, vernon blvd, please wait for the 7 train directly behind me.
i have seen and heard this twice.
also conductors get asked the stupidest questions like is this a E train? Its JAMAICA VAN WYCK! NOTHIN BUT Es stop there. i have heard conductors yell. LOL not to mention not alot of people bother the motorman, and he makes more $$$$ anyway
>>> I would not recommend experimenting to see whether a charge of criminal trespass for remaining on a subway train that you were told to leave results in your being handcuffed and locked up or just being given a summons. <<<
But criminal trespass is at least a misdemeanor, not an infraction, and would require a refusal to leave after being told to leave.
Tom
Not to mention resisting arrest after being told to leave, and "playin'" around with the copper that came to put you AWAY.
Stuart, RLine86Man
My advice is to ask the C/R if it's OK for you to ride through the loop to look at the City Hall Station. If he says no and you do it anyway, you risk arrest whether the arrest is legal or not.
I don't know if it is legal or not, but the two times I rode it I got off the train and asked permission from the office next to the tunnel in the Brooklyn Bridge station....both times they said yes. -Nick
Possibly the most intelligent idea in relation to this. No train crew will argue if the dispatcher says it's OK.
Write a letter to the TA. You will have a written response.
From RTO's Standard Operating Manual
BROOKLYN BRIDGE LOOP TRACK (TRACK L)
Brooklyn Bridge Loop has been designated as main line track. The loop area will not be used as a layover track and dwell time (the time that trains remain in the loop) has been reduced. Therefore, customers will be permitted to ride trains around the loop track.
The following Public Address Announcement will be made upon arrival at Brooklyn Bridge, track #1
"Ladies and gentleman, this is the last downtown stop. The next stop on this train will be Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, uptown platform. Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
Employees no longer have to ensure that all customers have detrained when the train reaches the Broolyn Bridge Station.
I knew that I was right, however, on the 142's, they obviously don't and can't say what's stated in your excerpt from the RTO SOM. And for R-68's, the C/R's just don't BOTHER saying anything like that.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Let me know when you find an R68 going around City Hall loop.
AH! Sorry :( I meant AHRRR-Sixty-TWOS *duh!!!!*
Stuart, RLine86Man
In the past, I have taken a copy of that notice with me when I want to ride the loop. If questioned, I show it to the motorman. If he objects, I ask if he'd be willing to call his dispatcher for confirmation. If he objects again, I get off an wait for the next train. I've never had to wait more than two trains to get a motorman who gives his OK.
So if, and only if, you are granted permission to remain on the train, can you see anything in there? :-)
Oh, sure! If you stand at the STORMFAN WINDOW you get a great view of the historic City Hall Station.
Which window is that? :-)
Sorry, it's an "in" joke from SubTalk years gone by. As a meteorologist, I like looking out the front of subways trains, and also at snow storms. So one of our SubTalk colleagues combined "storm" and "railfan window" and came up with STORMFAN WINDOW for me.
>>>and also
at snow storms. <<<
Hey Todd,
What's a snow storm?
www.forgotten-ny.com
What's a snow storm?
Some thing with that white shit which we're lucky not to have.
"What's a snow storm?"
You *are* welcome to come and visit us in NORTH DAKOTA
Only and the moment we don't *have* any snow to speak of here either.
And that's OK too!
Elias
An appropriate comment from the webmaster of "Forgotten NY".
subfan
It's something you see out the STORMFAN WINDOW. But now that more and more cabs are full-width, there are fewer SFWs, and thus fewer snow storms.
You mean when the last car with a SFW is retired, it won't snow in New York City again? This has got to rank right up there with Groundhogs.
Ah, Alex, here's the catch. As long as we have trains in the NYCT historic fleet -- such as the D-Types, Triplexes, and R9s (and hopefully Redbirds and Slant 40s some day), we're safe. The SFW will live on, and so will snow storms.
So there's a message to all you weather geeks and transit buffs -- support the NYC Transit Museum!
Hmpf. If all it takes to keep snowstorms away is to scrap every last car with a stormfan window, BRING ON THE TORCHES AND SEND 'EM TO SLEEP WITH THE FISHES!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(did I mention that I absolutely DESPISE snow?)
One more, Todd!
And... as long as any railfan in the world has pictures of any NYC subway cvar with a railfan window. My PCs use a transit theme..I have BMT, IRT and IND and all have railfan windows. Even my network is has a railfan window and wallpaper is a redbird!
Where can we get that notice?
Last year a SubTalker (who is a C/R or T/O -- I forget exactly who it was), posted it. I just printed out the message.
I've ridden the City Hall loop once and that was on October 27th 1994 on the 90th anniversary of the opening of the first New York City subway.
#3 West End Jeff
I was on my way back from Downtown Brooklyn today, and had to goto the east side of Manhattan........so I figured, why not take the (6) thru the loop, just for the hell of it....just to prove that it is open "to the public"....and the ride went without a hitch...the only thing that happened was the C/R said that the train "would be going back to the Bronx"......which I expected, of course.
By the way, City Hall was in absolute dark, with the exception of the light coming from my (6) train....eery, actually.......
Stuart, RLine86Man
the only thing that happened was the C/R said that the train "would be going back to the Bronx"......which I expected, of course.
Was that before you arrived at BB coming from Canal, or was that when you asked him/her for permission to ride it (if at all you did ask)?
I didn't ask...and no, it was just after "departure" of the very dark City Hall station on the loop track...
BTW, I DID forget to mention that the T/O DID see me after the C/R made that announcement, as the transverse cab door was open after the doors closed at BB.
Stuart, RLine86Man
When I rode the City Hall loop the station was all lit up.
#3 West End Jeff
When was that?
Stuart, RLine86Man
October 27th 1994
#3 West End Jeff
Well, it's been 7 and 1/4 years.........
Stuart, RLine86Man
It used to be all lit up when they used to do the tours down there. When is the last time they did a tour of the station. The last time I did it was about 4 years ago along with 18th, 91st, Brooklyn Bridge local platforms. I think Rudy ended the City Hall tours, but do they still do any tours of abandoned stations, or any tours at all. How do you find out about any tours.
I'd check the Transit Museum's site, and see what they say....
Stuart, RLine86Man
but do they still do any tours of abandoned stations
Not anymore.
or any tours at all. How do you find out about any tours
A limited number of tours are being held this month and next open to members only. They are basically repeats of tours held previously.
For further info, contact the NY Transit Museum (718) 243-8601.
--Mark
Maube I'll ride the City Hall loop on OCtober 27th 2004 if I'm lucky.
#3 West End Jeff
I don't see why not.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Mabye I'll ride the City Hall loop on OCtober 27th 2004 if I'm lucky.
I really hope they will have all kinds of things planned for that station on that day. I don't see how they can possibly let that day go without all kinds of fanfare. MAJOR milestone!!!!!!!!!. After all the subway turns 100.
Yeah.....true, but if the adminiswigs at 130 Livingston/370 Jay/347 Madison keep going the way they're goin', the subvay won't be here that long!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Now, now...class
Peace,
ANDEE
You're absolutely right. They should pull out all the stops for the subway's 100th anniversary.
#3 West End Jeff
Talkin' about a super express!
I have ideas for a super express. They should run the "NX" to Coney Island and back once again.
#3 West End Jeff
I never had a chance to, but I wish I could.
Maybe I'll get to it the next time I return to NYC...
-J!
YES YOU CAN TAKE PEOPLE AROUND THE LOOP. But me being a T/O I will never leave a bum or someone that does look right to ride into the loop. At least not the first three cars. You have a bunch of freaks and nuts out there and you don't want to be in a tube sitting behind a red when one of these nuts go crazy.
Even if it is OK, most of the conductors don't know that. I've done it by pretending to be sleeping in the 10th car. If they catch you, what are they gonna do? Prove you weren't sleeping? You can't punish somebody for falling asleep.
You can stay on the train unless it is a Layup. There is one train in the Morning that goes OSS for real.
I don't even know why your going to pretend your sleeping in the last car when C/R's never check the last car. I only check my operating cars.
I have always seen that they would come thru the cars and chase you out, so I would guessm, no you cannot ride thru the loop
"I have always seen that they would come thru the cars and chase you out, so I would guessm, no you cannot ride thru the loop "
If you ask to ride the loop, I am sure that they will understand and let you ride.
But mostly they are looking out for those whom they think may be confused or astray, and to be sure that people realize that this is as far downtown as they are going to get on this train. I mean if you were expecting brooklyn, and the train looped without your knowing it, you will be mighty pissed to find youself in the Bronx again.
Reminds me of a time when I was riding trains in Japan. There they check your ticket leaving the train as well as getting on. I guess to make sure that you are not trying to swipe a few extra stations on them or something. Any way, I *wanted* to get off one station early and walk back to the base by a different route. With my being an American and all, and not knowing any Japanese whatsoever (and the station clerk not knowing English)... they wanted to put me back onto the next train for another stop, because they thought I was lost, and needed help.
I finally made it clear that I did wish to walk from here, and they let me have my way.
Elias
I've been looking around for a good explanation of ACSES -- the Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System. Here's a good one from the FRA.
Interesting. This new system allows for a special outfitting on hi-speed trains, while not imposing a cost burden on the lo-speed trains that use the route. I still think that the old cab signaling system needs to be upgraded to 5 aspects with a new "approach limited" cab signal so that a train approaching a 45mph turnout can proceed at up to 60 mph in the approach block, thus eliminating many delays.
I still have a big problem with wireless train control as it can prove to be much suceptable to interfereance than rail based codes.
I still have a big problem with wireless train control as it can prove to be much suceptable to interfereance than rail based codes.
Not really. Rails are noisy as hell. 25 / 60 hz traction return curents, track codes for other stuff, and the nice harmonics from AC and DC traction trains. Lot of noise. Beacons, on the other hand, can be fairly noise free - a transmiteer on a known frequency band at low power, and the reciever can be a dual conversion type. Even better, "passive" beacons, which would require no transmitter (and a much easier on MOW crews). Not to mention it's easier to filter noise when you know precisely when you're transmitting and what the carrier frequency is....
I am not talking about accidental niose, but purposeful or accidental jamming. The airways are much more crowded than rails and wireless is easier to intercept and hack.
Just a note: 'wireless' rail coding systems I have seen operated illegaly in the 2.3/2.4 gHz ham band as a secondary user. I had emailed my ARRL organisation about the matter and they kinda pooh-poohed it....the 'L' line CBTC was to have been on that freq but it was dumped in favor of inductive links. ARRL now has the 'hots' to fight every intruder on that band...the Olympics in Salt Lake has got a STA for television remote use on a secondary basis. Maybe the noise problem is why regenerative braking is turned off on all R142s...that the trainsets cannot find the induced ripple of another trainset. CI Peter
My objections were based on all the wireless networks they are trying to install around campus that are running int all sorts of interfereance. With coded track circuts you have basically one code point per track block (which can be 1-3 miles long). With CTBC, at the very least, you need to compensate for transmission disruptors (buildings, tunnels, rock cuts, etc) by adding wayside transponders are a much closer interval. All of these transponders then have to be wired (remember those stupid wires we got rid of? well they're back) back to a central processing centre. I don't feel that the marginal benifits of CBTC over traditional coded track circuts is worth the added cost.
the 'L' line CBTC was to have been on that freq but it was dumped in favor of inductive links.
Is this something like trackbed coils?
High speed wireless networks will shoot at each other unless there is a guard channel that they first initiate comm at. The CBTC system now proposed is trackbed coils set at 100 foot intervals allowing shorter track zones and a higher degree of trainset integration (word is 10% speed up.) What that system allows is a better measurement of time/distance/trainset position as against the R142 wheel diameter measurements (wheel cutting still requires the vendor to adjust the software for a smaller wheel.) CI Peter
What'd be really cool is if the system could measure speed between two beacons and use it to automativally calibrate the speedo in the car.
Ugh, feature creep. nevermind :)
Is this bridge the one that crossed the Harlem river or is it the one that transverse Manhattan Valley.Its the same pic from the homepage.I enlarged it a little.
That is on the Broadway Bridge between the 215 St and 225 St stations.
Heading northbound.
With a westerly wind at around 8 mph.
The London Underground's website has a nice little section of their website dedicated to some of the persons working down in the tube. It's called "Tube Lives" and is located at (cut & paste):
http://www.thetube.com/content/lives/default.asp
It would be nice to be noticed like these dedicated employees in London. Oh well, just gimme my check.
thetube.com is a very good site. It has lots of interesting thing about the Underground. That site and Sao Paulo Metro's website are probably the best offical transit sites out there, IMO.
Give you your check???
Are you sure you don't owe us?
Well, if I do, then you can't get paid. Write it off.
Heck, skip the day in the life....roll your cursor over to the red sidebar on the right("how's the Tube running now?") and click on "Tube Etiquette" Poll.
Interesting. There are two conflicting options though:
-People who don't leave newspapers behind (so they can be re-read)
-People who leave food or newspapers on seats
Which one of these are the "correct" thing to do over there? How about in the US?
Most of those choices people wrote in for them to put on the survey. It is probably just differences of opinion on manners.
On the E today, the conductor announced the WTC station as "Chambers Street" without saying WTC.
Is there a formal policy in place yet?
Well, this morning I had the conductor saying "This is the E to the World Trade Center, next stop blah" and "Next and last stop is Chambers Street," so I think it's still up to the conductor's discretion.
I've had them call it Chambers Street before 9/11...
I recently aquired these route signs. I assume that they are from the elevated lines and suspect that they fit into slots that would render them visible through front or side window to passengers on platforms.
Comments are welcome.
Hi Bob:
I like the shot by the NYC subway calendar. I have the same one, I guess a lot of us do...
Chuck Greene
I recently aquired 6th Ave Local and 9th Ave Local route signs. I assume that they are from the elevated lines and suspect that they fit into slots that would render them visible through front or side window to passengers on platforms.
Comments are solicited.
(Thanks Chuck)
Your assumption is correct.
You are right, much like the Low-V plate signs we are accustomed to, the plate signs in the "el" cars were displayed much the same. Same thing for the BRT "el" cars too.
What's with that calendar on the wall ? Maybe Virgina Division BMT can explain things.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks, "Newkirk".
I ran into some guy selling calendars on a fantrip a couple years ago and for some reason I keep buying them.
Bob
>>I ran into some guy selling calendars on a fantrip a couple years ago and for some reason I keep buying them<<
Hmmm.......sounds like some sinister individual lurking around old subway cars !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I just got two very similar in design. One was "Lexington Ave. Thru Express" while the other was "E. 180th St."
Mine seem to have come from a LoV.
I am trying to obtain some photos of New York subway signs for a student project. The specific signs I need have a black background and say something like "uptown and queens" or "downtown and brooklyn". If you know of any resources, on the web or otherwise, I would appreciate it very much.
Thank you,
Matt Mahoney
mmahoney17@hotmail.com
Forgotten-ny has a section on subway signs.
Also check ebay, as they have a steady flow of signs being sold there, most if not all with pictures.
How about going to the Subway System with a camera and taking some pictures there?
- Lyle Goldman
i was checking out the links on some rail pages and stumbled across this. very interesting, i had never heard anything about this before. imagine cincinnati with a subway?
tim
http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/subway.html
www.forgottenohio.com ( i think thats the link) has stuff on it too
Having lived in Dayton/Cincy through the eighties and most of the ninties, I remember hearing about this every once and a while, although i never went down there. Every once in awhile, the local news would do a story about its existence, usually tied to some party getting out of hand (people would throw parties down there).
They've been trying to build rail transit for decades there. It's almost as bad as the 2nd Ave delay (although with less implications for failing to deliver). Talk has surfaced within the last sveral years about building light rail on the I-71 corridor from around Mason to the airport in Kentucky in conjunction with the new stadium, the shifting of Fort Washington Way (I-75/I-71), and the construction of 2nd street (2nd street was constructed in an elevated manner with the underside partially hollowed out so a station could be inserted). I remember seeing some timelines and thinking how absurd the handling of the situation was. Every level of government wanted to put their hand in the cookie jar, so to speak. Te entire project was going to take like 15 years (1993-2008), most of which was going to be spent on feasibilty studies, and feasibitlty studies of further feasibility studies, etc. Keep in mind the bulk of the trackwork already exists...it was merely of acquiring the ROW and building a mile-and-a-half tunnel for the line to complete. The paperwork/red tape is what's holding this up. It would be nice to see the light rail happen. It would also be nice to see more than 6 Amtrak trains per week run through Union Station. I must say that even in light of the railing neglect, the city did a great job in maintaining Union. I believe it is the Natural History Museum now.
A_west
For all interested in the Cincy subway and a slew of pictures showing in good detail the abandoned stations, go to:
forgottenohio.com
Tunnel Rat
What would be the feasibility of building a regular, heavy rail subway system there?
- Lyle Goldman
impediments include lack of money, lack of perceived market for a mass transit line, unwillingness to "link" minority areas to majority areas. AND the ROW of the original alignment was 'stolen' by the Interstate. Its not clear to me that a great deal of Cincinnati works 'downtown' If true, its an exception to the general trend. I would be pleased to be corrected if wrong.
Cincy has a healthy and active downtown, but only during banker's hours. Unless there's a Bengals or Reds game on the riverfront, they roll up the streets promptly at 5:00 PM.
Another major impediment to completing the subway line is the presence of a large water main that was built smack down the middle of one of the tunnels back in the 1950's. At the time, I guess it seemed more cost-effective than digging a new trench for it, although it pretty much negated any future transit use for the tunnels. The water main would have to be relocated in order to use the tunnels for tansit.
One myth about the project that refuses to die is that the curves in the tunnels were built too tight for subway trains to navigate. In truth, it was built to the same specifications as what is now the MBTA Red Line, which handles full-size subway cars. (In fact, look at the photos of Cincy's never-used stations, and you can see their resemblance to original MBTA Red Line stations like Kendall Square and Central Square.) The actual reason for the project's demise was the fact that most of the construction funds were being squandered away by the city's corrupt political machine.
Thank God that could never happen in Chicago... *gulp*
-- David
Chicago, IL
Right David, In Chicago, you may steal as much as hizzoner grants you but the project must be completed else you might grow cement overshoes.
As to Cincy, I had hoped you would comment, and the rolling sidewalks pretty much prevent the fixed costs even with some tunnels in place. And yes I know about the water main--first read about this subway fiasco in Railroad Magazine forty plus years ago--have been fascinated since. Tried to arrange a tour when I was there some years back, but on a recent tour some city official slipped on the leaking water broke a leg, that was that.
Downtown Cinncinati is relatively insignificant, both nationally and within that region. Perhaps the failure to build the subway has something to do with that.
My data shows that big (200,000 plus employed) Downtowns and Metros go together, but there is a chicken and egg problem. A big Downtown is gridlocked without a Metro, but a Metro is an overly expensive boondoggle unless it service a big Downtown. Few cities have followed the streetcar to elevated to subway route that NYC has after WWII. Perhaps "bus rapid transit" will allow cities to develop Downtowns that are large enough to support a subway.
and if you add the racism of route selection (or rather de-selection) and Cincy IS the South, a subway would be a waste in anything but a genuinely carbon conscious society. The only reason in today's twisted economicpolitical situation would be two very senior Senators from Ohio in GOP. So since that is not the case, nothing will be done.
I wish they had some sort of rail transit...especially one that went to the airport so I could go into town easily when I have layoevers at Cinncinati/N KY airport.
Mark
Shh
Don't let him on to the Dayton Metro Web Site
PH
they have some intriguing people working for the dayton metro. the cincinnati thing is true though right? if not they have done a good job pulling off a joke.
-tim
they have some intriguing people working for the dayton metro. the cincinnati thing is true though right? if not they have done a good job pulling off a joke.
The Dayton Metro's a joke, but the Cincinnati subway is not.
Very interesting! I love stuff like this.
Does anyone know what's going on on the 4 line? There were announcements that there was an incident at 110th Street.
Thanks.
This afternpn there was a broken rail around 110 St. I'd assume it was on the express track. 5 Trains were rerouted on the B'way line from Nevins St to 149/Grand Coucourse. It lasted about an hour.
The Broken rail was on the Uptown Express track.
I thought so!
That messed up everything for the Lex Line. I spent 4 Hours on the same train.
Dayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyum
Stuart, RLine86Man
This may seem like an odd request, but does anyone have or know where I can find a sound file of the warning chime that is played throughout the trains to warn passengers that the doors are closing?
Thanks for any help you can give me!
Matt
matt@idorapark.org
You can always record it yourself on a tape recorder, then play it into a microphone and via a jack input to a computer equipped with a program to create a file.
I would, but it would be months before I am back in the city... Anyone interested in making a recording for me?
Matt
If the WMATA sound suffices, it is on my website in the DC Section.
I should add my URL, shouldn't I? It is www.orenstransitpage.com.
Once at Grand Central, click Departures (towards bottom), then click Washington DC on the big black table. The Sounds Page is towards the bottom, look for the big black music note. The link is to the right of it. There is a .wav with the doors closing file as well as a 10.5 minute MP3 of a trip from Glenmont to Silver Spring aboard Rohr 1299.
>> You can always record it yourself on a tape recorder, then play it into a microphone and via a jack input to a computer equipped with a program to create a file. <<
I hope that's allowed. I do recall seeing a sign on the Throgs Neck Bridge stating that cameras are strictly prohibited on the bridge, so maybe someone would be just as concerned about tape recorders in the subways.
NO but I can transcribe: "Pleeese watch the closing of the opening doors thankyouverrrry much." CI Peter
You rookies sound alike. Learn it from a Transit Professional. Not related to Mr R46.
Aah, a door closing chime on a pre-GOH R44. Cool.
How about an R-46, R-62 or R-68??????
They're ROUGHLY the same...I remember at some time before their GOH, the R-46's having THREE tones to their "sounds" And the R-62's having a much higher pitch two tone sound.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Chances are those three tones were nothing more than a door chime or two being out of tune. I've heard some doozies, enough to rattle my fillings.
I remember the night I went to take my (now) ex-girlfriend back to Canarsie via the (R) and the (N) and the (4), the two-tone chime on the (R) was EARPIERCING!!!!!!!! It was louder than the noise of the train on the tracks itself!!!!!! And I've got sensitive hearing....that thing HURT!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I've experienced piercing door chimes a number of times. Every time this occurs it is always on an R-46.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah........never notice how NICE the chime is on the 68 or 62, but the FERBLUNGENT chimes are on the 44s and 46s
Stuart, RLine86Man
Honestly, the chimes in NYC are the most ineffective I have ever seen. It does no good to warn people of a door that is about to close if it has already started moving. Why have one at all? The purpose of the chime is to alert people the door is about to close, not that it has started to do so. The ones on the R142, R142A, and R143 are just plain annoying. The ones on the R44 and R46 are very unpredictable. The only time it is acceptable for the chime to be sounding after the doors start to close is in a situation like DC. A recording says "doors closing" and the first tone sounds before the doors close. The second tone sounds as the doors start to close.
I know............that's the TYPICAL TA stupidity (no offense to the TA dudes on here, please)
Stuart, RLine86Man
I am aware of that, they always bend the rules to comply with the ADA. Can't hold a train in a station an additional second so the chime can sound at a before the door closes but they can buy trains that declare themselves expresses even though they make all the stops.
*lol* The only MTA soivices (services) that use pre-"closing doors" bells/chimes are LIRR and MNCRR twains.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I think what they meant when they designed the chimes to sound while the doors close was that it was to alert the blind that the doors *are* closing, whereas the conductor announcing "Stand clear of the closing doors" is supposed to be the actual warning that the doors are about to close. Mind you, with the way the PA sounds on some trains, that door warning takes the form of garbled noises roughly sounding like a C/R's voice, but I digress...
The most obnoxious chimes are on the R-46s. Engine Brake has a file of the chimes from the R-44s which sound quite nice. I've never had piercing chimes on the R-44s. They've always been on the R-46s. The R-62s and the R-68s usually have good sounding door chimes when they work.
#3 West End Jeff
How dare you not beat on my R44s.
No guys, I meant, does anyone have a wav. file of the R-62 or R-68? I don't want to know how they are, because I know what it sounds like. I ride the subway a lot.
I just got the sound file for the pre-GOH chimes on the R-44/46s.
#3 West End Jeff
Try here. They may have something useful.
Train Sounds
...might you find protesters and police riding on the subway together yesterday afternoon.
Scroll a wee bit down to the middle of this page for some photos:
http://www.mtska.com/Special-WEF02032002.php
there's some other good shots on that page of the crazy people around town yesterday, if i do say so myself... maybe i oughta just give in on the current job and go into photojournalism... (the 'reporting' is far from my best though... i don't even think i spell checked that thing... oh well)
Field shunting was included in a set of posts explaining how jerk is avoided in initial acceleration of an MU, and how shunting varies across the acceleration curve (if I read it correctly).
What exactly is field shunting?
Without launching into a graduate course on electromagnetics,
here goes: A DC traction motor is "series-wound". That means
there are two windings. The armature, which is the part that
revolves with the motor shaft and receives the current through
carbon brushes and a commutator, and the field, which is the
stationary winding around the inside of the steel motor case.
The field winding is a big electromagnet and provides the bulk
of the magnetic field within the motor. The current flowing
through the armature in the presence of the magnetic field is
what produces the force (torque).
Normally, these armature and field windings are connected in series
so the same current flows in each. This is "full field".
If a resistance is placed in parallel with just the field
winding (while retaining the series connection), then a portion
of the current is diverted, or "shunted", away from the field
winding and through the resistance. So, for a given amount of
armature current, the field current is now a perecentage of it.
The lower the shunting resistance, the lower the percentage of
current that flows into the field winding.
Shunting the field has 2 effects. 1) For a given armature current,
it reduces the amount of torque. 2) The counter-EMF generated
by the armature winding, which opposes the line voltage, is weakened.
Since counter-EMF is proportional to rpm, this means the motor's
balancing speed will be higher.
On NYCT equipment, field shunting is used in 3 ways: 1) At starting
to cushion the torque build-up and reduce jerk. 2) During coasting
to allow the dynamic brake circuits to set up without causing
excessive drag. 3) At the top end of the motoring notch-up
sequence, to increase the balancing speed. As I'm sure you've
noticed, it was this 3rd use that has been discontinued.
*NICE* job, Jeff! GE R&D here ya come ... best explanation for non sparkers I've heard yet ... bravo!
Remember the local/express switch and corresponding illuminated signs? Basically, all trains now operate as though the switch is always in local mode.
The local/express switch on the switch panel (through R-40S) only controlled which lightbulb was illuminated. It had nothing to do with field shunting. The energy conservation switch was added later during the GOH program. I believe that the #7 line was the first to get it. The energy conservation switch had nothing to do with the express/local signs. I also believe that the #7 trains had a little light outside of the car to let supervision know that a local train was not running in conservation mode.
Now all the equipment behaves as if in ENERCON-LOCAL mode.
Hard to believe. One has to go to a museum now to experience
the way the cars are supposed to accelerate.
I remember when the R32s had just come back from GOH. I was on a
train that was a dog! I knocked on the cab door. "M/m, what
position is your Energy Conservation switch in? Local,
this is an R local train. Do you know what that switch does?
Yeah, it turns on the little local or express sign outside.
Have you looked at the front of your train lately? Oh, yeah."
The rebuilt R36WF cars were the first with the Enercon feature.
It was crude....a light switch mounted in a household electrical
box with a piece of BX running down into the junction box.
The R36 cars have that little yellow light placed under the Express sign glass. The trick to that light is that it was only lit when the switch was placed to "off". Therefore if you worked a line like the 6 where supervision was hard on using the energy saving conservation mode, you could deceive supervision by flipping the switch from on, to off and back to on, while in parallel mode. Since the field shunts would not reset unless either running a gap in the third rail, or placing the controller to off and back to parellel, the light could remain off while enjoying the benefits of improved running time. Of course, a smart TSS who knew ammeter readings aboard the train might think otherwise. And there were RCIs who removed dead motor indication bulbs.....
Hmmmmmm. Very interesting.
I stand corrected.
You mean the trains can accelerate faster but don't?
- Lyle Goldman
No! The trains, in energy conservation mode, will accelerate as fast as a one with full field shunting, up to about 20 MPH. For practical purposes, the lack of field shunting will only reduce the top-end speed.
Thank you very much for your help.
What exactly is "balancing speed"?
- Lyle Goldman
The top speed that a train will reach if left in the parallel
notch, assuming nominal line voltage, level and tangent track.
It is the point at which the force of the motors (which diminishes
with speed) reachs a "balance" with the forces of retardation (wind
resistance, rolling friction, bearing friction, windage in the
tractor motors, etc.), therefore acceleration is 0 and speed
remains constant.
I rode home on a northbound 4 today, which sounded a single blast of the horn as it left each station. What's the significance of this?
Mark
Could be the C/R accidentaly Kept hitting the horn button when closing the window. I do that at least 3 or 4 times a trip.
One sound of the horn has absolutely no meaning in accordance with TA rules.
I beg to differ ... it means "honey on the seat" ... sheesh ... look it up, dammit! :)
Maybe he was "shouting out" someone on the platform or token booth clerk if the booth is on platform level. Or he kept hitting the horn button while closing the window.
What stops did that happen at? Who did it C/R or T/O?
I was on the train from 14th to 86th, it happened at all four stops. I'm not sure who was blasting it, but based on the other responses, I'd be inclined to believe it was the conductor closing the window, since the toots all came at about the time the window would have been closed. Never heard single toots before, but since they all came at the same time, I figured there must have been some significance.
Mark
This afternoon while observing the Casey Stengel Viking buses. Yes 996 and 998 are at CS. I happen to see the all ML R 33 consist move up a few feet to prepare for # 7 service. I caught a regular R 36 set and took that to Times Square approx 8 trains later, the ML set arrived at TS with MARKER LIGHTS ON. South motor 8918. North Motor 8954. Today was the first day this train had seen service since last month when it was a # 5 train. The train seemed to work great even though there are different air brakes. More ML R 33s are to come how many more exactly is anyones guess.
Are they running as 11 car trains with the single car or is that not possible?
As usual, the "single" (WF R-33) is third car from the East End.
In this case, 9338.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
So how many WF R-36s have been sunk to date?
0 to my knowledge :-). Let's keep it that way until I can come photograph a few more times.
I believe four to six R-36 WFs have hit the briney deep off Deleware, but they were the ones that were shifted over to the main line in the 1970s. The only Flushing line car sleeping with the fishies right now is R-33WF 9321 (of course, come July the fish won't use it because it only has those damn axleflow fans...)
Like TrainDewde and company have been saying all along------all "floatable" objects---including FANS-----are REMOVED from da cars BEFORE placement on the "death barge" *suspenseful music*
Stuart, RLine86Man
I happened to ride 8918 and 8919 yesterday with Tom MR36 Maley from 111 St to QueensBoro Plaza. 8918 was riding pretty well, however 8919 was very rough. At times it seemed like the train was going to stall and get stuck. I also rode 9534 on the Express. 9534 was the winner of the day-not the 8900. If the 8900s pass their test on the 7 without any breakdowns, then more R33 ML will go to the 7 and R36 from 9346-9477 will go to scrap. If they fail, then an R62A test train could POSSIBLY make an appearance. This is not definite-R62A fans. Do not get your high hopes up.
#9534 7 Flushing Express
I notice that there has been a lot written on Subtalk of the Sea Beach of late. Nice going guys. Keep up the good work---and eat your heart out Bob, Q, and the rest of you other psuedo BMT fans.
The subtalkers are being polite. They all mean Slow Beach.
You and Bob. What a combo you would make. You sure you aren't related?
Just take it slow, as in Slow Beach, Fred. And it isn't just Bob and me.
I'm laughing so hard I may wet my pants.:-)
Just thought I'd make note of the overaboundance of C Beech rhetoric.
This will soon come to an end, mark my words...
Discussion will soon resume regarding the far superior Brighton Beach Line...
;-D
BMTman
>> This will soon come to an end, mark my words...
Discussion will soon resume regarding the far superior Brighton Beach Line<
Aw geez.... here we go again......Brighton Line Rules !
Bill "Newkirk"
Here Here, Brighton Line Hip Hip Hooray, Sea Beach thhhh(razzberry sound)
Oh good God, another Brighton man is emerging from the caves. What next?
>>Oh good God, another Brighton man is emerging from the caves. What next?<<
Well, the Brighton does emerge from a sort of cave at Prospect Park with an unsurpassed express run to Brighton Beach.
Both ROWs have four tracks, but the Brighton has express stations. The Slow Beach has no express stations and one "express" track is severed. Somebody made a boo-boo back when the Sea Bits was designed, they left out express stations !
Sorry Fred !
Bill "Newkirk"
BMTman is a Brighton man all the way. Right, Doug?
I read once that there was once 6 tracks along the Brighton south of Ave H
Woof! :)
Mmmmmmooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
amtrak will be only a NE rail system between some local cities ....
just heard this on abc radio news here .
yep heard it agsin and BUSH & de boyz aint' gonna fund it anymore !!
arent you glad you voted republican ?
lol!!
He increased the budget for the Transportation Department by 19%, although what I don't get is how we will get out of recession when he wants to spend more but tax less. The money just simply isn't there.
No. You just print more money.
The President gets every weapon he wants. The Congress gets all the pork it wants. The taxpayers get lower rates (for now).
Then, in the future, when we get inflation and deficits as far as the eye can see, all the present politicians will be long gone (note they don't have to rely on Social Security).
Remember supply and demand. If more money is printed, it's value will go down. Not only will the value of money go down, but also with relentless spending, the deficit will enlarge, and then "Read my lips, countless new taxes". Just like Daddy.
"The President gets every weapon he wants. The Congress gets all the pork it wants. The taxpayers get lower rates (for now). Then, in the future, when we get inflation and deficits as far as the eye can see, all the present politicians will be long gone (note they don't have to rely on Social Security)."
The Federal Government is not a household that has to balance its expenses to its income at all times. It's widely accepted economic doctrine that a moderate deficit is better during a recession than either raising taxes or cutting spending, both of which put a damper on an already-low economy. It was a belief that the national budget simply HAD TO be balanced at all costs (and that the dollar couldn't lose a cent of value under the gold standard) that exploded the recession after the Crash of '29 into the full-blown Great Depression.
(It's widely accepted economic doctrine that a moderate deficit is better during a recession than either raising taxes or cutting spending, both of which put a damper on an already-low economy.)
Most of the tax cuts and spending in Republican voting states phase in later. Deficits are projected far into the future, at a time when the economy is expected to be growing. The temporary rebate was a good idea, the rest is bad.
The Federal Government is not a household that has to balance its expenses to its income at all times. It's widely accepted economic doctrine that a moderate deficit is better during a recession than either raising taxes or cutting spending, both of which put a damper on an already-low economy. It was a belief that the national budget simply HAD TO be balanced at all costs (and that the dollar couldn't lose a cent of value under the gold standard) that exploded the recession after the Crash of '29 into the full-blown Great Depression.
It was only seven or eight years ago that we heard dire predictions of how the federal deficit was destined to keep swelling until it devoured the known universe. Needless to say, as the 1990's went on, all the talk shifted to the way the federal surpluses would keep growing forever. Now we're back to deficits, but hopefully people have learned enough not to assume that what applies today will apply forever. But then again ...
One interesting side note to the budget debate in terms of transit and in this case, someone else's ox about to be gored: The Associated Press ran a story on Monday about Congress not only threatening to cut off Amtrak, but also taking 11 percent of the federal highway funds for their own pet projects.
Unfortunately, about 80 percent of the country doesn't really give a damn if rail transit is maintained and expanded, but when their roads and bridges start to crumble because Tom DeLay wants to build a new airport on the southwest side of Houston and Patty Murray wants to expand a maratime museum in Seattle (two of the pork projects mentioned in the story), the shirt will hit the fan a few years from now.
Unfortunately, about 80 percent of the country doesn't really give a damn if rail transit is maintained and expanded, but when their roads and bridges start to crumble because Tom DeLay wants to build a new airport on the southwest side of Houston and Patty Murray wants to expand a maratime museum in Seattle (two of the pork projects mentioned in the story), the shirt will hit the fan a few years from now.
I guess three airports aren't enough for the people in Houston ...
Amtrak's funding depends on Congress.
Why should Amtrak continue to be funded if there's no demand to keep it? Outside the NE corridor, passanger rail service is DOA.
Ahem ... not so for upstate New York, it'd be like saying "why don't we shut down the Jamaica el? Nobody's using that either." I'm sure busses could take up the slack for most of the subway, or perhaps people could use helicopters to Manhattan instead. I've *never* been on an Amtrak train that wasn't at least half full, and many were standing room only.
I include all Amtrak routes from Massachussetts to DC in my "NE corridor" remark. I use the lines in upstate NY many times, and I think enough ridership exists to maintain the entire Hudson line from Niagra Falls south.
Yeah, but kinda useless unless it goes to Chicago west of here ... I mean, I'm a loyal upstater and all but have you ever BEEN to Beefalo, Syracuse or the rest of the tundra? Without Chicago at the other end of the barrel, that bright light at the end of the tunnel is nothing more than an SD40 ... :)
Is it still going to go to Washington, DC and Boston, et al? The Northeast Corridor stuff?
finally i do not think BUSH is going to refund AMTRAK ....
toast !!
! Who will take care of the transcontinental routes then?
How has AMTRAK got into this corner of trouble?
Cars 6756-60 and 6841-45 are currently testing for the 5 right now and are making a run down to Flatbush Av. Perhaps we will now start seeing 142s on Lexington Av.
-Stef
They also tested 6766-70/6826-30 together with No.5 signs. We should see a R142 in service on the No.5 Line with in 4 weeks. They just have to train the #5 Line crews but the older timers love there redbirds.
Oh yes, the old timers and their redbirds.... I guess they'll have to adjust to this new technology. No more separate braking and power. Now it's an all in one deal. Lol.
-Stef
Hey! HEY! Bite me! :)
Ol' Selkirk don't go for this "space invaders" motorman interface, y'all. Heh. Give me straight air and 600 volts and I'll turn this rig around. Moo.
Stef: Check your email and my post about R142 news.
Saw a "not in service" R142 train passing through 14th street heading north on the express track.
I was on R142 # 6535 this morning on the <5>, but it's strip maps were still of the (2). Not to mention that some of the strip map lights were out at several stations--and NOT because the # 5 doesn't stop there....the Borough Hall station light was out, and I had gotten on at Atlantic Avenue when I noticed this. Oh, and the strip of lights only went up to West Farms Square...*shrugs*
Stuart, RLine86Man
If I'd remember riding the 4 to the subway series game. I did saw one of those R-142 on the 4 with the strip map of its route that day. Since then, I haven't see any of them. What ever happen to them?
The World Series Train now runs on the 2 Line, Cars 6311-20. It was a special event at the time requiring a special train. We could see new trains on the 4 at some future time as Redbirds are withdrawn from that line.
-Stef
Historically the East Side has always gotten new cars last. When the Lo-V cars were still running, the West Side (1,2,3) had new cars while the last Lo-V cars ran on the East Side (4 and 5). In my opinion, the 4 will probably have the last mainline redbirds. Of course, if the option orders are excercised then all redbirds will go which would, if history follows the pattern, mean R62 series for the East Side and R142 series for the West Side.(possibly save for the 1 due to gap fillers).
Of course, we wukk just have to wait and see what **they** decide.
Union Square's alignment and the gap fillers needed was part of the reason why the Low Vs lasted longer on the 4/5 (the 6 got the R-17s early, and that's where they spent the bulk of their careers), and the 6 again is getting new cars before the Lexington Ave. express lines.
Right it looks like the route order the new R-142s will go into service on is 2, 5, 3, 4, with the Lex-Jerome getting whatever is left over from the R-142 order, unless something happens to make the MTA decide the Flushing Line should get the last of the 142s.
Not probable. Knowing them, they would rather modify Union Square than modify Corona Yard. Then again, TA does not stand for rhyme or reason.
2 r142
3 r142
4 r142A
5 r142
6 r142A
I hope you're right about that, I like the 142As better so I'm hoping they go on the 4...
Except for the 6, right? The 6 will be all R142A's. But the 5 is also getting R142's.
With the R62's, haven't they always been on the 4? I know with the R62A's, they first showed up on the 1, then the 3 and finally the 6.
These are all editorials in today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution
MARTA can't succeed until it serves the region
I largely agree with this article, the GRTA should be an umbrella agency like the MTA. Altanta has 4 transit systems (5 if you you count commuter rail not yet built) that are all independant of each other. A seamless system would be good.
MARTA's absentee policy is extremely unacceptable. There is a 20% absentee rate, which mean all the workers work an average of 4 days a week and one paid holiday. If MARTA cracked down on this, they would not have a deficit. The union rules must be changed in this area.
Amtrak can't maintain status quo
The article started out sounding aganist Amtrak, but in the end, it made a good suggestion that Amtrak should be reorganized. I also agree where they said trains should get the same subsidies as air and roads get.
Rail proposal chew-chews state budget
The writer of this is a real asshole. This guy is Wendell Cox's butt buddy. He says that transit demand isn't there, yet he fails to mention how two bus systems that started up in October have been overwelming instant successes. While he is complaining of the whopping $2 per rider commuter rail subsidy, maybe he should find out what the road subsidy is per driver. He mentions how much road building debt the state has, but he has no problem with selling bonds to pay for the useless Northern Arc highway (mentioned in every other editorial he writes), which the majority of the city is aganist. The only thing I agree with in this article is the labor cost and union paragraph.
Who's Wendell Cox?
"Who's Wendell Cox?"
Ah, would that none of us knew who he was because he didn't exist. ;^)
Mr. Cox is a "transportation consultant" who appears in any community planning or proposing rail transit with a bushel basket of statistics and studies opposing rail. A typical Cox soundbite is that you could give each potential rider of the proposed rail system a Cadillac (or Lexus, or some other expensive auto) for the price of the proposed rail system.
There are plenty of anti-rail activists and "consultants," so what makes Cox stand out? His appearance almost literally ANYWHERE rail transit is on the table, his total opposition to rail as a viable alternative anywhere under any circumstances, and his equally total committment to eternal highway expansion. For example, when Atlanta was considering commuter rail a year or two ago (they're still considering it, IIRC), Cox's serious counter-proposal was a gridwork of north-south and east-west freeways two (IIRC) miles apart all across the Atlanta metro area.
What's Cox's motivation? Is he in the highway construction business?
Mark
Mr. Cox is a "transportation consultant" who appears in any community planning or proposing rail transit with a bushel basket of statistics and studies opposing rail. A typical Cox soundbite is that you could give each potential rider of the proposed rail system a Cadillac (or Lexus, or some other expensive auto) for the price of the proposed rail system.
I wonder if he was behind the somewhat different analogy the state of Connecticut used with respect to Metro-North's Waterbury branch. It was claimed that it would be cheaper to transport each rider in a stretch limousine. As the claim did not actually involve buying an expensive vehicle for each rail rider, I suppose it wasn't precisely a Coxian statement, but close.
His proposal would have literally destroyed the city in order to "save" it.
"A typical Cox soundbite is that you could give each potential rider of the proposed rail system a Cadillac (or Lexus, or some other expensive auto) for the price of the proposed rail system."
A Lexus? For everyone? That's great! Now what are you going to do with it if traffic levels preclude you from ever leaving your driveway?
The complete failure of Mr. Cox's sloaganeering can be seen in the following Second Avenue Subway example:
At full length, the line will cost about $10 billion. Lets say it serves directly 1 million Manhattan residents. For the cost of the second avenue subway, you might as well as give every Manhattan resident a $10,000 car (okay, a used Lexus...) for the purpose of commuting to work. Now what would you rather have as your means of transportation: a Second Avenue Subway, or 1 million more automobiles on the streets of New York?
The shortsightedness of his argument can be seen in the legacy of the dreaded Robert Mosses, rubblemaker extraordinaire. The car is the symbol of personal freedom. It's ironic that by pushing this expression of freedom to its extremes, you're left with a place bisected by highways, two miles on center, that nobody would want to live in.
MATT-2AV
The car is the expression of freedom, but the flip side of freedom is isolation, and the car is a very powerful symbol of that as well.
And I consider myself particularly independent freedom-loving individualistic...
Mark
Last night I was walking between the Atlantic Ave IRT and the Atlantic Ave Brighton, and see that part of the new passage way is now open. As people were coming down from the IRT platform they looked perplexed as the old passageway was all boarded up, then finally noticed that there were a new set of steps going down another level.
It was strange, as constuction is still ongoing, to look up from the new passageway and see the wooden railroad ties and the undercarrage of a redbird above my head, pulling out of the station.
I noticed the new passageways on Sunday. Nice improvement from when I frequently used that station transfer durng my high school years.
I passed through there on yesterday. Scared the hell out of me when a train pulled in overhead. Have not been through atlantic ave in a few months. Does anyone have the final drawing of what the completed project will look like. Was not expecting a completly new everything.
What exactly are they doing? It sounds as if they are widening the corridor under the IRT leading to the Brighton and 4th Av lines.
I've been there at times when the crush went over the bounds of safety. A moment of panic in the IRT stairways and people could have been trampled. The tight spot where the tunnel narrows to get to 4th Ave was particularly bad.
This is a station that deserves to be fully elevatored and escalatored.
That's the whole general idea........but as to when they'll actually install the elevators in the Pacific Street BMT section is still up "in da air"...they boarded up the old Pac St.-Atl. Ave IRT passageway though........the new one leads RIGHT to the New Lots Av./"Round"bush Av. (1)/(2) bound platform.
Stuart, RLine86Man
What exactly is going on? I used to transfer at that station from the B to the 2/3 every day my Freshman year of high school. I've been upstate at college for almost 3 years now, and haven't even seen anything of the Pacific/Atlantic passageway in so long i forget the last time i needed to use it...maybe to get home from the LIRR terminal one night? i dunno, but anyway, Could anyone describe for me exactly what all the consturction is? Thanks,
West End Scott
>>, Could anyone describe for me exactly what all the consturction is? Thanks,<<
What is going on is a long awaited rebuild of the both Atlantic Ave stations and a widening of that connecting passageway. That passageway is a study in futility in the rush hour. Both stations are to be ADA compliant. For wheelechair people, this is going to be interesting because of all the different levels the walkways are right now.
When all is said and done, the passageway will be much wider than present, the BMT station will have tiles on the untiled walls and lighting will be improved. The Atlantic Ave control house will be returned and restored but not as a functioning fare control area. It will be some sort of a skylight. Of course the IRT station will be redone and given a long overdue rehab.
Did I leave anything out ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, the ROW for the old Belmont connection appears to have been walled off.
Tiles on the BMT Atlantic Ave. station walls? Finally, after being gone for 40 years? That would be great!
-- Ed Sachs
>>Tiles on the BMT Atlantic Ave. station walls? Finally, after being gone for 40 years? That would be great!<<
Yeah that's a good question, what happened there giving us a bare wall all these years ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think I remember reading about some kind of flood.
subfan
Yep.......the flood was so bad enough that the BeeEmmTee tore down most of the walls, probably to prevent fungii growth (and the SMELL associated with it)
Stuart, RLine86Man
atlantic ave ...is still under construction??
when will it be finished ??
hmmmmm...
Who the hell knows? They say 'round 2003-2004.......but at the slowneck pace it's been going, it'll be by the time the 2nd Av. subvay is done.
Stuart, RLine86Man
u know i almost broke my neck on the street level...
no lighting at all broke part of my tripod....UGH !!
2000 fall....
On the street? Well, that's simple enough.....it's all of that "windshield" steel........that's all the "vestibule" is, really...
Stuart, RLine86Man
I was tired looking for some fast food ...U know how it is ..
the construction site on the street was dark & not well lit .
Off the curb i fall fell flat on the street !!
Embarassing & it hurt ! broke my tripod ..( sigh )
>> when will it be finished ?? <<
Probably a few days before construction begins to connect the LIRR to downtown Manhattan. I certainly hope the possibility of such a thing was considered in the planning of the current project.
> construction begins to connect the LIRR to downtown Manhattan.
Is that really going to happen?
- Lyle Goldman
Sarcasm is really wasted on you.
Wow ... and I thought all this time that that's what the Atlantic Ave BMT station looked AS BUILT!! You mean it had TILES in those vast spaces? I had no idea!
--Mark
Nope..........there was a flood in the '30's (IIRC), and the BMT just stripped ALL of the affected tile to keep it from fungii and the INCREDIBLE SMELL that fungii causes.
Stuart, RLine86Man
There are some small areas in the station where the original tile remains - I think there is a very short section on the NB track wall and a longer one on the SB wall, but I may have them reversed.
subfan
There are tiled areas, yes, but those are remenants of what was left over from the flood---sections that were "unaffected", but are, of course, losing tiles, too, due to 'age'
Stuart, RLine86Man
The section on the northbound track wall and the southern tiles on the southbound track wall look different from the rest: they have all white tiles on top, as opposed to the color band with the little A's on top on the rest. Is it really all original tile?
- Lyle Goldman
I seem to recall there being tiles on the walls at least into the late 1950s.
-- Ed Sachs
Whenever........but it was the result of a flood, no?
Stuart, RLine86Man
Is this what happened at 86th St. 4th Av.?
Hooray!
Lately, I've been seeing what look like survey marks on the Q Line Atlantic Avenue walls, as well as new cement. Does this mean they will be re-tiling the walls very soon?
- Lyle Goldman
I took a trip over there today. I never realized it had changed so much since I was last there (probably my first day out on the road, relaying the W's at Pacific on 7-22!). Them they had had the boards up, but the layout was the same. Now I couldn't even recognize the place! They moved a passageway over, leading to the slight wooden ramp to the IRT platform. The old stairs are still there, and you can see the old passage, to Pacific, which is below and to the left of the new passage. And where you pass under the IRT is totally different. Even more strange than looking up at the tracks, is being on the IRT platform and looking down through the tracks--it's like an indoor structure! Nothing else like it.
It should be so nice when all this is finished. I ecven saw the old station house in the lot across the street. I knew it was gone from the site, but I didn't know they had moved it almost whole (or it looked like the top half of it).
From the descriptions, it seems that when you move up to the Pacific St. mezzanine, you can now directly walk to the eastbound (B'lyn bound) IRT platform, with a slight ramp upwards.
How you get to the passage under the IRT is still somewhat mysterious, but it's clear this passage has been moved, but exactly where I don't know. It sounds like it's been moved northwestward, towards the Manhattan-most ends of the IRT platforms.
What have they done ease the connection from Pacific to Atlantic? I imagine they've eliminated some stairs, and widened (or will widen) the connecting corridor.
As for the IRT now looking like an elevated station, I bet the whole thing is now quite a bit noisier.
If you are heasign down the ramp to pacific steet from the brooklyn 2 irt platform. There is a wide stairway (half mood shaped) that leads sown to the LIRR, Q atlantic ave platform. Once at the bottem of the stairway, riders are rejoinded with the old walkway. The walkway is lined with metal walls. They are probably building a wall behind this that will make that walkway wider. Its worth the trip to check out the changes. I changed trains at atlantic every day for 4 years. I did not recognize the place
I checked this out today. With the new corridors and stairways, it's like being in a totally different station. I really dug that indoor "el" when you look up.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since I haven't been in the area for quite a while, I have some questions: Are they building anything above the LIRR station yet? Has that old IRT Kiosk that sood in the middle of Atlantic/Flatbush been returned?
>>>Since I haven't been in the area for quite a while, I have some questions: Are they building anything above the LIRR station
yet?<<<
They'll build something there in my lifetime...
heh
www.forgotten-ny.com
They'll build something there in my lifetime...
How and when did you acheive immortality?
The Times Plaza Building (aka IRT Kiosk) is still sitting in the trianglur lot across the street (bounded by Flatbush, Atlantic & 5th Aves).
I believe it is still in need of rehabilition before it can be returned to its original location.
BMTman
A new mall is being buit atop the lirr terminal with provisions for an office tower on top. The mall is being built by the same developer as the Atlantic Center Mall just to the east. Acoring to the NY times, the mall has already broke ground and is being built simultaniously with the staion rehab.
I received an email about a year or two ago from someone who said he was involved with the design of the new building. He wanted a picture of the old Flatbush Ave. terminal building since he said that they hoped to incorprate some of its architectural style into the new building.
I liked the fact that I can transfer from Pacific to the Flatbush/New Lots lines without having to go down any stairs. I was rather suprised, but pleased at the new configuration. It'll ease the pedestrian congestion from BMT to IRT and the LIRR.
Yep. Should do exactly thot.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I liked the fact that I can transfer from Pacific to the Flatbush/New Lots lines without having to go down any stairs.
I don't see how this is possible. The level of the Pacific St. trains is way underneath that of the IRT.
He didn't say he didn't have to go up stairs.
The new transfer tunnel that's now in place is without any stairs to what was once the original transfer tunnel......it's LEVEL with the (1)/(2) South/Eastbound platform.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I meant after rising to the Pacific St. mezzanine. In the old config. I'd have to go down a few steps and walk the long narrow passageway to the area underneath the IRT, then rise up another set of stairs. With the new setup, a passageway leeds me directly to the southbound local IRT platform from the Pacific St. mezzanine.
Little story from yesterday's railfanning...
I was out early doing some railfanning and I ended up at Kipling, the western end of the B-D line. I went upstairs and got a coffee and something to eat and returned to the subway platform and got on the first car of the waiting train. The driver entered and set up the driving controls in that cab and left, going into the crew room at that end of the platform. When it was time to go the driver returned, the doors closed and the driver put the control handle in series to go over the switches. The train started up - and went backwards for about 25 or 30 feet before the driver put the emergency brakes on and set the reverser correctly on "FWD" after having accidentally put it on "REV" when he set up that end the first time he entered the cab. I don't think this was caught by any of the supervisors in the crew room but someone needed another cup of coffee or something.
-Robert King
Somewhere Caz Dolowicz was saying, "I'm gonna write him up for this, &^#$#@$^%, I'm gonna have his ass."
Forwards, Backwards. Hey as long as you're going fast, does it really matter? Its not called Rapid Forwards Transit.
:-)
>> I was out early doing some railfanning and I ended up at Kipling, the western end of the B-D line.>>
Where exactly is Kipling?
It's in Toronto, and is the western terminal of the Bloor-Danforth Subway.
Wouldn't it be nice if those SubTalkers posting about non-New York locales would identify the CITY they are talking about!!! How the heck is the average NY railfan supposed to know where Kipling on the B-D line is??
Hell, I'm in Baltimore, and my rail experience (systems & localities) goes back to the middle 1950's.
As a serious railfan, I knew what ran where and rode a lot of it.
I do agree that all of us who are non-New Yorkers should identify the systems they talk about. Makes it easier for everybody.
I would like to point out that there's a very good place to familiarize yourself with the systems other than New York. It's called New York Subway Resources, and there's a wealth of info here, if you only check it out.
Thanks, but I've read most of the NY Subway Resources site. That wouldn't help if someone springs on you "I was at the westbound Kipling terminal of the B/D line."
or "I ended up at Chesham on the Met" (London) LOL!
Or worse - I almost ended up at Edgware (Northern), but it was nowhere near Edgeware Road (Circle/District) or Edgeware Road (Bakerloo). I did end up at Edgeware anyways since I was railfanning on some 59 stock...
-Robert King
I'm guilty of that. We have a Kipling St. in Lakewood, a suburb west of Denver.
If it isn't mentioned, asking where will usually get you an answer as it did just now. B-D is the commonly used short form for the Bloor-Danforth line (you don't hear 602 much). The Bloor-Danforth line is presently the only east-west subway line in Toronto. Hopefully you know where Toronto is.
-Robert King
This fall I plan to go to Sicily for vacation. I understand Palermo has a underground metropolitan railway line. Does anyone have more information about this line? It is hard to find info about this on the internet.
I checked Robert Schwandl's Metro Planet site, and the only metro on Sicily I could find was this one for Catania.
Mark
I visited Palermo 2 years ago. There is a metro shown on local maps. But I believe it is really a commuter rail line that serves a very small loop around the downtown area and runs very infrequently. I know one of the stops is the main railway station, so you could start by asking about it there.
As someone else said, there is a new (but short) metro in Catania.
This link will take you to the Palermo Metro timetable (in Italian). It seems there is now a branch to the airport.
http://www.palermoweb.com/metropa/
Anyone know what happened in the 53rd street tunnel yesterday? Got on a V and they said all trains were going through 63rd street. Of course people were all confused.
Conductor said "mechanical problems", station announcements referred to it as "an incident"...anyone know what happened?
Maybe Ralph struck again.:-)
Story here.
I had the opportunity to venture over to the Bush Terminal area today and noticed Redbird #9306 coupled to 2 MOW (and former Redbirds). I wasn't able to get their numbers (I believe they were both G7-something), but along side on the other scap track was a set of what I believe was a set of rail grinders with a tamping car between them.
They might be there awhile since NYCH isn't able to get up to the interchange until street trackage is repaired.
Wish I had my camera with me...
BMTman
9306? Isn't that the World's Fair R-33 that is preserved at the Transit Museum in original World's Fair colors?
Check the posted message from Bill from Maspeth
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=320914
It's an impostor.
BTW - Where can I find the SBK yard? I might be in the Bay Ridge area on Sunday and I might want to take a look if the trains are still there. Thxz
SBK Yard is located at 2nd Avenue and 38th Street, but the trackage goes down to 1st Avenue in the 40's. The access to the TA ROW via the West End is thru Costco on 2nd-3rd Avenues bordering 39th and 38th Streets.
I've seen this from the BQE. Thanks for info ItalianGuyInSI
Where can I find the SBK yard? I might be in the Bay Ridge area on Sunday and I might want to take a look if the trains are still there.
Maybe BMTman can organize another Brooklyn Waterfront field trip through the area (when the weather gets (MUCH) warmer)! I know that I'd like to go there again.
My pleasure.
After a afternoon of MU fannin', treat yourself to great food at the many sandwich shops under the Gowanus' shadows on 3rd Avenue in the 30s and 40s.
Actually, after touring the area, it off to Mambo Italiano on 3rd Ave between 80th and 90 streets. But thanks for the tip.
Yeah, I assume the number is faked for whatever reason...
BMTman
This is an impostor of a car numbered 9306, but it is really an R-21 in disguise. It called Corona Yard home for a number of years.
You spotted two other cars there in MOW Paint? They must be the R-22 Work Motors recently retired from service on the Signal Dolly, G7420 and G7460 (HELLO DOLLY).
If Engine Brake is reading this, perhaps he can confirm these motors have left 207th St Yard.
I thought these were getting reefed (supposedly)? Someone in Transit going back to old fashioned scrapping?
-Stef
Maybe they could with the 21 and 22's..........
Stuart, RLine86Man
Stef, either that or maybe those cars are there for asbestos abatement for resale to a private party (or organization)???
Even though we ALL thought that these cars were being readied for 'Davy Jones Locker'.
BMTman
Still there. That picture taken of the last barge shows them clearly in the picture. Last I heard, the rider cars, and older scrap cars will be signed off to reefing. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the current number of 900 cars goes up, as NY is one of the last states in the contract to get the reefs. The MTA will probably get Pataki to sign off on dumping all the TA can provide. After all, they can get him to screw us on Pension Refund monies.
Yeah, King George can spray paint a little memo outside the first car he ceremoniously pushes off the barge and into the waters off NY State proclaiming: "Here ye, here ye, TWU'ers. I hereby sink these cars as a sign of your sunken pension contributions." The 9,000 individual names ought to be inscribed among the cars.
Perhaps we can take the WF cars and repaint State of Sonny and Willie, complete with portraits. Or handcuff the crooks to straphanger's poles.
I thought the R-33WF #9306 was a permanent exhibit at the transit museum.
#3 West End Jeff
Read back on the posts. There's a bogus 9306 going to scrap.
-Stef
Which car bore the 9306 No. plate?
#3 West End Jeff
An R-21 painted in Redbird Colors. Bill from Maspeth says it's #7261.
As for the real 9306, it still resides at Court St.
-Stef
the imposter car # 9306 is a WH R 21 former # is 7261.
They really should hold onto the bogus 9306. How many other R21's were painted in Redbird colors? Does the TA already have an R21 at the Transit Museum. 7261 has a pretty interesting history masquerading as a single R33. Was it ever run in service after being painted into Redbird colors?
Not that particular car. The only R-21 to ever run after the anti-graffiti car program began was Car 7075, but it was painted green. The R-17s which were not GOHed, were painted in Redbird Paint.
-Stef
I should say that 7075 was cleaned up while other R-21s/22s continued to wear the splatter of vandalism.
-Stef
It is always interesting when you hear false rumors about certain subway cars. If I saw a car with #9306 on its number plate and painted in the "Redbird" scheme I would get a little suspicious that it is a bogus number since I know that the real car #9306 sits in the transit museum in its original paint scheme nicely preserved I must add.
#3 West End Jeff
Plus AFAIK the real 9306 is not operable. Not by itself, anyway.
I think that you're correct in saying that the real car #9306 is not in operable condition.
#3 West End Jeff
It isn't. That's been verified by the Transit Museum page on this site with an entry for this CORRECT car. Although it's a shame...
Stuart, RLine86Man
It would be great if car #9306 was operable. Then at least you can have a "World's Fair" car with original paint in running order.
#3 West End Jeff
AFAIK it's a matter of reinstalling whatever parts were cannibalized from it.
Could they DO that using "GWO [good working order]" parts from 36's that are being scrapped????????????????????????? (or could it be that 9306 requires...a mate? :) )
Stuart, RLine86Man
Car #9306 IS a single car. It doesnt need to be mated with another car in order for it to operate. It only needs a few good parts to restore it to working order. BTW All of the R-33WF (#9306-#9345) cars are single cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Okay....a teeeeeny widdle mistake.
Could it be "mated" with other cars in the museum fleet for a Nostaglia Special at some point, should it actually GET the parts it needs?
Stuart, RLine86Man
It probably could if it has the correct parts to make it operable. The other cars it could be mated to would be any of the SMEE R type cars from the R-10 to the R-42. It will also work with the R-62s/R-62As and perhaps the R-68/R-68As if they meet certain requirements.
#3 West End Jeff
Put it this way: they've got a ready-made four-car train of IRT R units at the Museum right now. All they would need to do is put back whatever parts were cannibalized and - presto! - one Nostalgia SMEE IRT train.
I believe they certainly COULD have done that, perhaps they could have even done that with parts picked from #9321, now gone to sea. Maybe they'll get them from the next R33 single to go.
And they should preserve at least ONE R21 - an unusual hybrid of R17 and R22.
wayne
Are there any in some yard somewhere???
Stuart, RLine86Man
Maybe if someone uses their head MAYBE they can cannibalize the parts from a deceased R-33WF and use them on R-33WF #9306.
#3 West End Jeff
I agree.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm traveling back to NYC in a few weeks for a railfanning weekend. I'm staying at the Intercontinental Barclay which looks pretty nice (on their website) since my old fave, the WTC Marriott is regrettably dust now.
Anyhow, my question is, how has the subway changed since 9/11. What's the busiest (weekend) platform (in terms of rail traffic) now? What new routes should I try out (The V, the 63rd street connector?) Whats the best (weekend) express now? What should I try to do that would be memorable this trip?
Thanks in advance.
No V on weekends.
63rd St connector is nice. The Roosevelt Island and 63rd/Lex stations, though not new, are very nice and now have predictable service via the F.
Since June 2001, there now is good service on Broadway in Manhattan, even on weekends, for the first time in over a decade. Of course, that comes at the expense of the 6th Ave express.
JRR4:
If you hadn't heard, the World Financial Center Marriott re-opened two weeks ago. They have a $105 weekend night promotional rate. The nearest subway stop (by foot) is Rector Street on the NandR.
I saw that. I didn't think I would enjoy being that close though. I got into the Barclay for 85.00 via Priceline. Seems like a good deal as its a **** hotel and just remodeled.
Wait a second, that's not the Marriot that was in between the two towers right?
You are correct sir, that Mariott is no more.
The one that was in between the towers was, naturally enough, the World TRADE Center Marriott. Todd's speaking of the World FINANCIAL Center Marriott (down the street).
Right, Dave. See the Getting Around Downtown map, and it will show you how it is just south of the frozen zone, between Albany and Carlisle Streets on West Street.
That's a great map, showing exactly the relation of the various Subway stations to the WTC. It's clear to see why the 1/9 line will have to be completely rebuilt while the N/R and E are back already.
Marriot between the towers is currently a pile of rubble.
1. What was the original idea of putting stripes beneath car numbers?
2. I know that this is still in use on the IRT for identifying yards the cars come from, but what about the variants of these stripes: double-width yellow stripes on some Westchester Yard Redbirds, white circles and some-color of diamond on some R62's, and the T's and O's on some R62A cars?
3. What is the original answer behind the fact that Corona has two stripes for it: yellow or black with purple diamond?
4. Were there any other marks (on the IRT) that identify what features a car may have?
5. What about the B division? Did stripes have the same purpose there as they did on the IRT? If so, what was the meaning of the B-division stripes?
6. I know that door-enablers were recently installed on some R42 cars, and they are identified by a red diamond. Were there any other marks (dots, diamonds, stripes, etc.) that were used in a similar manner as in Question 4?
I can answer the third question.
For Corona Yard cars, those with black stripes have Westinghouse motors, and those with yellow stripes have GE motors.
As for R62 cars, the dot stickers specifiy the location of the full-width cab.
Chaohwa
On the B division, the stripes, circles, etc were always used to indicate modifications where compatability issues might arise. Otherwise we don't need colored bars or dots to identify our cars.
I remember years back on the R-68 cars, some of them had red stripes under the car numbers at the ends with the full-width cabs, some had green stripes in the same places, and some had black and yellow squares under the car numbers on both ends. What specifically did each of those colors signify?
- Lyle Goldman
for anyone delayed on the N in astoria, the culprit was a door on an R68 car - the train was pulled out of service at 36th av because the door WOULD NOT CLOSE. even as the train left the station oos, the conductor was standing inside the train by the open door. I wonder if they had to go all the way to coney island with that door jammed open?
What'd they do AFTER going OOS to the door's sensors? Put the key in by the door's bottom (where there's the option to "On/Off/Cut-Out" the doors.) and cut-off the door's sensors so the C/R and T/O could get indication?
Stuart, RLine86Man
The T/O probably operted using the By-pass button
Depending on what had happened, the C/R likely had to protect the door all the way to Coney Island (and I'll bet it was cold, too). Sometimes, cutting the power from the operator will allow it to be closed manually. However, there are several things that could happen to prevent this:
Debris jammed into the lower track!
Upper door track dropped!
Door operator gearcase jammed.
In these cases, the C/R could likely not overcome the condition. More likely though, an RCI boarded the train, got the door closed & put the train back in service.
Amusing how some things never change ... and yes, I'd bet on the RCI as well. :)
perhaps, but it would have had to run at down to city hall with that door jammed before finding a layup track, unless an rci boarded in-route and got it shut as it moved!
I wonder if he used a ball peen hammer.:-)
Dunno how they work that thing these days, but normally an RCI would be stationed at major stops and would come along for the ride. Normally a little hammering here and there would get a balky door closed within a few stops, then you'd go back into service ...
Did any trains run center track while this delay was happening?
yeap, 1 N.
I hate when Things Like that Happen ,Had it Happen to me On the 5 line The track on top of the door snapped and the door wouldnt Budge .But the best part is when the RCI gets he looks at it and goes "Yeah its Broken".
>>RCI gets he looks at it and goes "Yeah its Broken".
That's why they make the big bucks.
awwwwwwww....... NOT AGAIN!
N Bwy Line
Does anybody have the north and south destination sign readings (listed from top to bottom as it appears on the outside) for the R40/40M/42 side signs? I've been always curious as to what all the readings were. Any info will be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance,
B63Mike
Does anyone know where I can get them, if nobody here has them?
B63Mike
Try eBay. They're constantly selling antique subway items. [and then some that AREN'T, but are advertised as such......so let us know if you find something....so we can validate it's authenticity, k? :) ]
Meeeeeeeeeerow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Acutally I'm not looking to buy them, I'm just curious as to what the readings are.
B63Mike
Oh. Ask Train Dude. Or, ummm....Kevin (a.k.a.: SelkirkTMO mon)...
Stuart, RLine86Man
Mike: The roll signs for the R-40/42 and 44 carried a route map on the inside. The outside reading left to right was north terminal,route letter,south terminal. Because it was impossible to have all possible routes on one sign cars were divided up into groups assigned to different lines. This caused havoc every time the cars were rerouted or re-assigned.
There are simply too many readings to type out. E-Mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Today because of the Pats victory the City of Boston decided to have a Pats day parade. However the MBTA was not ready to handle the mass exoudus of Pats fans into Boston. On the Orange Line at Sullivan Square from the mezzine at the turnstyles people waiting to go the platform it was that packed. By the time the trains reached the station they were at crush load no one could get on or off the train so approximately 2 trains went by before the sent an empty train from Wellington to service the people. A quick chat with the T/O revealed that no one wanted the overtime and they had only 1 extra train to handle the crouds other than that it was a daily schedule nothing special. Any other Boston Subtalkers had a simular experience today please post or E Mail me thanks Stevie
In other words, the Orange Line today looked like the Green Line every day :)
Stevie, I'll back you 100% on that one. I left my office in Cambridge today to catch the 4:40 commuter rail train from North Station to Lowell. Usually, this train is one of the least crowded rush hour trains, as it's preceeded by one at 4:10, and followed by one at 5:10. It's a six-car consist, and you can almost always get a seat (though it's a middle if you get there just before departure).
I arrived at North Station early, 4:15. Pawing my way through the crowd, I heard the PA announcer say, "The 4:25 to Haverhill is full -- do no board. The next train is at 5:15." The Lowell train was already posted as departing from Track 3, so I shoved my way through the throngs, and found the train ALREADY packed, 25 minutes prior to departure. My friend Jay Marsden, conductor on this train (he has so much seniority, he's picked the same job 12 years in a row!), told me the only space left was in the 1st car's vestibule; the 4:10 departed full at 4:00. I squeezed in there (and so did he), and at 4:20, he gave the "Train 329, OK to go!" He said it was the first time in his 25+ years of conducting that he had intentionally left the terminal early on a revenue train. We had to hold for about ten minutes outside the station for the interlockings to be set for our trip, but then we started the run north. With very long dwell times at each stop, as passengers had a tough time getting out, the train eased back into its normal schedule.
Others on the train told me that some of the inbounds this morning filled at their first or second stop, and had to bypass all remaining inbound stations. The MBTA did run a few extras (one each on six of its 12 lines, I believe), but it was nowhere near what was required.
Stevie,
The Orange put out everything it had. They pulled inspectors off breaks and ran all sorts of RAD's (extras). One 17 year veteran said he had never seen the trains as packed. At one point, they shut down Haymarket Station for about an hour because they couldn't handle the crowds.
Most of the RADs ran light to the heaviest platform at that given moment. They short turned southbounds at Back Bay and northbounds at Wellington. At one point, the line to buy tokens at Forest Hills was all the way out to the busway. I got my 12 hours in today!
Although the system was overtaxed, there wasn't many problems. Service was slow and delayed. No real breakdowns, no broken or kicked out windows. A couple of minor fights and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Boston T Party. fights and rowdy kids are normal for the orange line i took it as a kid going to school in boston i was also around for when the celtics won in 86 and the t was just as bad.
Sunshine,
These weren't the local subway rats, this was the Foxboro tailgate crowd combined with cancelled classes for many colleges jocks and a City of Boston (and others) unofficial "skip" day. Kind of like "amateur" day on the subway!
Stevie,
I'm sorry you ran into so many problems today. Unfortunately, the MBTA can only handle so many crowds. In all fairness, you can never even get on the platforms on many lines an hour or two before the ticker-tape parades in NYC for the Yankees.
Just be glad its the Patriots that won. Bostonians will behave with a Pats, Celtics or Bruins Championship. But the city will burn down if you know who wins the world series! -Nick
Nick I didnt worry I jumped up front in the cab with the motorman and off I went. Stevie :)
Personally I kile the new ticket vending machines better then the old. The old ones were too differcult to use if its your first time.
Not only that, the old machines did not allow you to purchase tickets for trip between station other then for the one your at. Now I can purchase a ticket for my trip from Jamaica to PJ at Penn. Pretty neat.
Also the screens are touch screen which are much easier to use then the countless buttons on the old machines. Also the screen is much bigger so its easier to see.
Any info on when the new machines will be at Jamaica and at other
stations? So far I only see them at Penn. Is the screen LED, LCD or CRT?
They are at Grand Central as well as Penn Station
Mr rt__:^)
LED, LCD or CRT
The screen can't possibly be LED, do you even know what any of those things mean?
Yes, I do.
LED light emitting diode.
Why don't you just anwser the question?
There are LED screens, if you didn't know. They are used on large displays. I realize that it may seem unreasonable to use them on a display of that size but realize if I was wrong, I would like a explantion.
LED's used on large display panels are too big to be of use as a small display screen, but there are organic LED's (OLED) which are small, and poised to replace the LCD and CRT for small screens. They are used on a cellphone called Timeport by Samsung (blue and green text only), and a full color display screen (on a cellphone, also by Samsung) was displayed at the CES last month, and should appear in Japan this year and here next. The color is much crisper than anything, and the brightness is enough for daylight visiblity, and the viewing is the same at any angle. This will be great for all digital signs, (will be just as clear as a roller sign) and will even make for flexable screens and "electronic paper".
So this is brand new technology, and isn't popular or cheap enough to appear on an MTA vending machine.
Tell me more about OLEDs, with what are they made? Are the principles similar to regular LEDs?
I read something about this months ago. OLEDs are made from different types of polymers, depending on what color you want. Instead of a glass screen, they have a plastic one. This means that the srceens can be bent into any form. And yes, they are like regular LEDs in that only a small current is needed to light them up. OLEDs are essentially superior to everything else. They use less power than an equivalent sized LCD screen, will be a lot cheaper to produce, sharper and brighter picture, and can have larger screen areas. Because it bends, reseachers think they can be put into glasses, windshields and jet head up displays. Cool stuff.
This article from last year is still up
I've never seen a TVM, but I can help you. There is no such thing as a LED touch screen, LCD touch screens are usually small and are monochrome, used on copiers and other devices. If the screen was rounded, then it probably was a CRT. If it was flat screen, then it probably was a flat screen monitor. Plasma screens cost too much right now for that type of use. Did the screen make little waves when you touched it? If so, it was a flat screen. Otherwise, it was a CRT.
I like them, I now don't get asked if I'm on the right train when I hand a Jamaica to Penn ticket on the Flatbush train. I can now get a ticket that says Jamaica / Flatbush and not be intrupted in my reading (or foaming if the head car is open).
I have yet saw 3 of them at Penn Station. They look so easy to use! I would like to try it out since they look like MVM's.
This afternoon at about 2:30 p.m. I had the misfortune of riding a Manhattan-bound E train from Jamaica-Van Wyck to Chambers Street with one of the most incompetent conductors I have ever experienced. This gal made so many errors in her announcements that I actually lost track of them.
Among her most egregious errors were:
(1) Announcing at Roosevelt Avenue that transfers were available to the F, V and G - even though the G terminates at Court Square except for nights and weekends. The sign on the platform says so clearly.
(2) Announcing at Lex/53 that transfers were available to the 6 and F lines - even though the F now runs under 63rd Street and doesn't stop at Lex/53 anymore. She also made no mention of the V.
(3) Announcing from 50th Street until Canal Street that Canal Street would be the last stop - even though E trains are now terminating at Chambers Street. She even announced "Last Stop" when the doors opened at Canal. Fortunately, she was overriden by the T/O who informed her politely that the train would terminate at Chambers.
There were other, smaller errors, such as advising riders at 14th Street that transfers were available on the lower level to the A, C and L lines, when only the L line runs on the lower level.
It seemed to me that she was using an outdated route map or something.
Where do they GET these people, anyway?
I wonder if she had taken a looong vacation and still had an old route card in her jacket when she came back to work... "No thanks, I already have a route card!" Maybe she needs glasses too.
Of course this doesn't explain the "advising riders at 14th Street that transfers were available on the lower level to the A, C and L lines," Doesn't she know that the C runs on the same track that the E does?!?! Why the hell would it be on another level?
BRRRINNG! BRRRINNG! Is that the "clue phone" I hear ringing?
:)
JR
I neglected to mention that she also didn't announce the transfer to the R at Roosevelt Ave. Maybe she mistook the G for the R, I dunno.
Boy....good thing there wasn't a TSS at any of the major stations......or she woulda been FRIED BIG TYME!!!!!!!!!!! (Making all of those STUPID mistakes......geez....even ---I--- could do a better jawb than her!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
geez....even ---I--- could do a better jawb than her!
Even a tourist with da map coulda done a better jawb!
*lmfao*
She might've said something like "transfers are available to the A, C, and L on the lower level". Depending on how you read that, it could be read as all 3 are on the lower level, or just the L.
Just trying to be an optomist...oops, that was a bad pun.
OK, I'll accept that. But what about the others?????
Or "Transfers are available to the A across the platform, the C on this track, and the L on the lower level."
Usually here, conductors just say "transfer here for the L". They wouldn't mention the lines that run on the "same line" as that one.
For ex.
If one rides an R from 57 St., the conductor won't say "transfer here to the N or W" at every station until 34 St because the same trains run through the same station for a while.
It also takes common sense to be a conductor announcing stops.
If I were a C/R, I would not announce the C when I am doing the E except at 50th and Canal. On the downtown, I would also announce a transfer to the uptown C only at 50th or 42nd, and would always announce the "A Express" and its location before anything else. For example: "This is 42nd Street, transfer to the A express across the platform, also transfer to the 1, 2, 3, 7, N, Q, R, W, Shuttle to Grand Central and Port Authority Bus Terminal."
This is no big deal, but I am very used to hearing conductors saying the lettered routes first, before the numbered routes for some reason.
That is probably a thing of habit, I find on A division it is numbers first.
I just think that to announce which train is the express or local companion for the current route first is very good to do and to announce its location.
"This is 59th Street, transfer to the 6 local upstairs, also transfer to the N, R, W. Metrocard Transfer to the F at 63rd and Lexington also available."
If my grandmother told me, once, she told me 1,000 times, "Don't spend yer whole career on the IRT. You'll forget the rest of yer alphabet."
:0)
(the above is entirely fictional. Any resemblance to a real person is accidental, and I refuse to clean up the accident)
I bet all the confused passengers are asking the same thing at this moment. But this is nothing compared to the "Blind T/O" stories awhile back.
She may have been a new Conductor and came out of school car before the changes and had the former service changes stuck in her head.
While having the right announcements is always a nice touch, I'd wave the "gross incompetence flag" ONLY if she opened up on the wrong side or couldn't figure out which hole to put the key in. Maybe someone will fetch her a new sheet of cardboard and she'll be OK again. That was one of the nice things about the old days - no PA, no announcements to be made other than "everybody off - this train's BROKE." Heh.
>>I'd wave the "gross incompetence flag" ONLY if she opened up on the wrong side<<
That's happened before, which now is responsible for "enablers".
I saw this myself years ago on an northbound (N) train running express on Bway and entering Times Square. The doors opened on the wrong side and quickly closed. Passengers were hollering, HEY,HEY. Lucklily no one fell out. This has happened more than once, and gives a bad name for the good consciencious C/R's.
Bill "Newkirk"
MOO
Well yeah ... opening wrong sided would certainly qualify for the "egregious" level of malfeasance. Bad announcements, while unfortunate, certainly don't meet the level of "get this one off my railroad" incompetence ... I'd put dragging geese because you didn't look up there as well ... but bad announcements? I don't think so.
Does this happen if a C/R is in the wrong half-cab or is it some malfunction?
Enablers are part of the T/O's console........without having the correct side enabled, the doors WILL NAUGHT OPEN. The enablers are a, IMHO, VERY important safety feature.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Well, I heard once that an M train had the doors open on the wrong side at 36st. R40Ms and R42s do have the enablers, don't they? Does this mean that the entire train crew screwed up because you said "without having the correct side enabled, the doors WILL NAUGHT OPEN" so, the T/O enabled the wrong side, AND the C/R was in the wrong cab?
The enablers are rather new and not all the train's have them. You could also push the wrong button and have the C/R key the wrong side, no one is perfect.
Yep. And just 'cuz they're out in "circulation" (the enablers), doesn't mean they're in all da twains.....look at the new stickers...they've been out almost 2 weeks, and yet, only a VERY small handful of twains have 'em alweady.
Stuart, RLine86Man
They had them in June on the M, they aren't that new. The T/O hated them, said it was just one more thing to remember.
I know........................but havin' 'em again is like, strange.......
Stuart, RLine86Man
Only the R42s have the enabler.
Shawn.
Or "Everybody out and push!":-)
As much as I wanted to (especially on the bridge) operating rules prohibited such. Had to wait for a follower or a mighty diesel. :)
I agree it is a nice touch to make perfect announcements but you can get brain washed with old announcement.
Do they still hand you a cardboard sheet or is there a book containing the "sayings of chairman wow?" Back in the old days, it was a tattered sheet of cardboard ...
No the only thing on announcements a C/R is given is the blue book which tells you what to say during a delay. Some terminals may give you a route card. I only have 2 out of 7 route cards. I have a Skip Stop only card with running times from the No.1 Line and a full route card from No.2 Line.
Collect 'em all and save ... wow ... even back in the bad old days, we had cue cards. Only problem was the R1/9's didn't have a PA. When I'd get an occasional 32 though, it was PARTY TIME. :)
>>This gal made so many errors in her announcements that I actually lost track of them<<
If she's that bad, she should be a C/R on the 42nd St Shuttle. Only two stations, how can she go wrong ?
Bill "Newkirk"
42 Street shuttle is OPTO.
Is it OPTO?
I thought it had two T/O's, one at either end.
The one in front drives the train, the one in back serves as C/R. When they reverse, they switch roles.
Or maybe I'm mistaken...
That ("two-person OPTO") is only in the rush hours, if memory serves. The rest of the time, it's by-the-book OPTO.
David
I think its 2 person OPTO all the time. To have to switch ends on the shuttle is really pointless.
Can "2 person" and "OPTO" be used in the same phrase?
>>Can "2 person" and "OPTO" be used in the same phrase? <<
Perhaps TPTO is more on the ball.
But then you have the inevitable TA insiders' joke about TPTOing through the tulips, and the kind of stale humor the world needs to get rid of...
:-)
When the shuttle is in service there is always a crew of two both crew members happen to be in the title of Train Operator. OPTO, I don't think so since the non-Operating Train Operator (or is that Non-Train Operator) is doing the doors and passing buzzer signals to start.
Since both stops are terminals, they have to pass buzzer signals, can't just start on indication.
Yes, because I just did it. Doesn't the T/O who just operated open the doors when he arrives at the other end of 42nd Street?
Nope, 2 person OPTO on the TS Shuttle is full time.
Sounds almost like an oxymoron.
Dunno - maybe she'll announce Times Square as "42nd Street and Broadway," the way it was done before the Dual Contracts.
Dunno - maybe she'll announce Times Square as "42nd Street and Broadway," the way it was done before the Dual Contracts.
Or "Longacre Square."
HA!
Or "Next stop is 50th St." I wouldn't put it past someone like that.
That's when you'd need Tom Wilson in his Biff Tannen character rapping on her head and yelling, "Hel-LO! HELLO!! Anybody home? HUH?!? Think, lady, THINK!!!!"
If she's that bad, she should be a C/R on the 42nd St Shuttle. Only two stations, how can she go wrong ?
"Forty-second Street, Grand Square, transfers available to the J/M/Z!"
"Next stop is Times Central, transfers available to the G and Airtrain!"
:) JR
..."and the 2nd Avenue Line."
Talk about being in error.
Well on my train the C/R announced "last stop World Trade".
With all those mistakes and as a B Division T/O, she sounds like a perfect candidate for the R-143s once they get enough of them into service...
There are still C/R who are not "updated". On the IRT, pre 7/22 changes are still announced at Atlantic. The same goes for 14St-US ad 59St-Lex. I only heard the F transfer at 59St-Lex one time. It was mentioned as a regular transfer. Not even a Metrocard transfer. I use the A train two days a week, I always get this female C/R that when we get to Bway-Nassau, she announces the 2/3 as part of the transfer. But when we pull into Chambers, she announces the 1/2.......
No one is announcing MetroCard Transfers. I haven't heard a single one at 59/Lex, Lex/63, 23/Ely, or 45 Road.
Forgive me if this point has been made previously but I didn't read every posting in this thread. The errors, as stated, are regretable. They should not have occurred. But, in fairness, do you really think this rises to the level of "GROSS" incompetance? If so, how would you classify opening on the wrong side, or opening with the train not fully platformed or even opening while moving? In my opinion, the errors reported do not rise to the level of GROSS incompetence and the use of the term in this case was a little too critical.
I agree - it's not like they took the train full speed into a wall or something.
Unless the train derailed, that'd not be possible....can somebody say, "BIE?"
Stuart, RLine86Man
It has been indicated that some routes outside the Washington to Boston corridor would be retained. Which would these be? My guesses are they keep Keystone, Auto Train, Downeaster, San Juaquin, Pacific Coastliner, other CA services, and any service fully funded by a state (and Acela Express and Regional, obviously).
I hope they keep the Sunset Limited. I went on that about 5 years ago and it was one of the best and most memorable trips I'll probably ever take.
In the early 90's, Amtrak was ready to drop Keystone Service. After the partnership with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, ridership and service improved, somewhat. Amtrak may ask PA to pony up more cash, or to take over the line entirely, after which Amtrak could bid on the operating contract with PennDOT. Right now, for all intents and purposes, the Philadelphia-Harrisburg leg is subsidized by the New York-Philadelphia leg (maybe they make some back Philadelphia to Paoli). Perhaps if Pennsylvania expanded SEPTA's mandate to include Lancaster and Dauphin counties and took over the Keystone Line entirely, schedules, service and ridership would improve. It could return to the long-distance commuter status it had in the 1980's. On the other hand, I would hate to see the comfortable Amfleet II coaches replaced by commuter coaches, with their harsh, fluorescent interiors.
Philly -> Chicago "Freight" trains would stay as they make money. If worse came to worse PennDot would run them as going to chicago would be cheaper than terminating them at PBG (like the old Pennsylvanian did). Vermont service would stay as they are funded by VT. The Inland Route would probably be operated by ConnDot with some money kicked through from CT and MA to keep the through trains running.
The big problem w/ am Amtrak breakup is that Amtrak manages so many other rail services including but not limited to MBTA and Shore Line East.
I wouldn't count many services dead on arrival, yet. If would seem that many of the 'heartland' routes might be sacraficed. I don't think cash-cows like the AUTO-Trains would be touched.
Most pro-rail people advocating AMTRAK's demise, including the people who originally helped create AMTRAK, want the federal government to 100 percent support the ROWs with tax dollars, as they do the roads.
If this vision comes true, rail service would eventually exist wherever the private sector believes that passenger fares could cover the cost of buying, maintaining, and operating the cars, and selling tickes. The system would probably end up looking like the map of possible "high speed corridors."
WRITE your political representatives. Tell them what you want. A complete shutdown a month before a national election is sure defeat for some Conresspeople. The demographics of highest voter turnout and ATK long distance riding are the same older persons. (I will turn 58 this summer) Get out your pens (or keyboards)! As said by others this would be the first time since 1869 with no transcontinental rail service DO NOT SIT BACK AND LET THIS HAPPEN WITHOUT A LARGE FIGHT!
Amtrak's future depends wholly on what Congrees does in the federal budget. Amtrak has requested $1.2 billion in subsidies, finally dropping the fiction that long-distance trains can ever be profitable. As Amtrak's president said:
"Corporate profitability is not compatible with the operation of long-distance trains, which by their nature are and always will be unprofitable," Mr. Warrington said. "Policy makers need to decide what kind of passenger rail system America needs, how much the system requires in capital and operating support and how the government will pay for the system."
Don't count Amtrak out yet. There will be much political wrangling over its future in the months ahead.
Turning some of the operations over to the states makes sense, because if will force the Congressmen and Senators from low-population density states and the elected officials within those states to put up or shut up -- if they want their rail passenger service, they're going to have fund it as a pay-as-you-go system, and not skim money out of the bulk Amtrak subsidies that could be put to far better use elsewhere in the country.
Announcement of the day:
"This is Bethesda, doors open on the left. Attention customers, due to Metro's Capital Improvment program, the elevator at Medical Center is out of service. Shuttle service is available from Bethesda."
First time I have ever heard a T/O say "Capital Improvement". I have yet to hear MetroWorks, the name that appears on all the signs.
My train's follower was a 4 car train bound for Shady Grove.
WMATA needs to add info on the next train to the PIMS signs outside the faregates. I don't like hearing brake regenerators and having to guess which direction the train is going.
I rode the Bombardier version today, and I feel that the interior looked slightly different than the Kawasaki's I am more familiar with. Was it just the lack of artwork on the reverse of the display sign or posters next to the doors?
Are there any differences in the two models? Inquiring minds want to know.
There are PLENTY of differences.
1-All electronic signs are operated differently. Exterior side signs are of a different "make" and interior info signs are all mono-colored (RED), and "blink" rather than just change rapidly to the next "sign" (like the 142A).
2-The 142A has A/C vents by the storm doors on all of their cars---with the exception of the transverse cab doors on "A" units (those with cabs). 142's from Bomby don't have 'em.
3-The most obvious difference, of course is that the reverse side of the side LCD signs don't have any "official" artwerk like the 142A's have. And even they're getting new artwork, that depicts a huge whale or something...........I'm not that "artistic" to know what that's all about.
4-The strip maps on the 142A are transparent for the lights. The 142 strip maps are transLUCENT...
5-The Automated Announcement System on the 142A has two (but it sounds like THREE) distinct "voices", of course, seperately being male and female. The 142's that I've ridden on that were made by Bomby had ONE FEMALE voice for ALL of 'em announcements.
Stuart, RLine86Man
R142 have the male and female voices as well. The newer R142s have the artwork in them as well.
I just noticed today of all days...I rode 6535 and noticed it all.....but the rest of the differences (the A/C and LED signage [although the newer R142's also have the "new" green/red sign boards], etc.]
Stuart, RLine86 and 6Line33Man
The center storm door on the A-end of the A-cars have a metal border. On the Bombardier, the metal border is seperated into 3 parts, 2 side and a top. On the Kawasaki, it's 1 solid piece.
Both of the exterior signs are LCD (as opposed to LED, used by the 143), but on the Bombardier cars, the LCD characters look like they are made out of dots like an LED display. And the shape of the characters is a bit different.
Are you sure the interior signs are red only. Since they run on the #2, all you may see is red.
The strip maps can be swapped, so that is not unique to the cars. I guess they just made the maps for the #6 transparent, and the #2 translucent.
Another difference I have noticed is that on the Kawasaki cars, the ceiling space between the air vent and light is wide enough to hold another row of ads (I was wondering if that was what they were going to use that space for), while on Bombardier, it is narrower.
Isn't there a difference in some of the openable wall panels (smaller on one), or something?
Isn't there a difference in some of the openable wall panels (smaller on one), or something?
The Kawasaki cars have ads mounted on roughly 2'x2' swing-out panels for door access, like all the R series cars before it. The Bombardier cars have solid wall with small access panels next to the windows. There are also far fewer ads in the Bombardier cars.
Dan
In another post he stated that the R142 he was on was used for the 5 line as a test. Therefore, the 5 on the interior display would be green.
And it was. :) But the strip maps were still of the original (2) maps, of course.
Stuart, RLine86Man
The trucks on the 142's looks more like the traditional pre war style. The 142a's have a totally diferent look. The tractions on the 142's sing when they startup, the 142a's whine like a washine machine in a laundromat.
Yep.............that whine sounds a little bit like a very old Billy Joel (my fav. singer, btw) song--at the beginning anyway--called "Miami 2017 (Seen the Lights Go Down On B'way)" from the "Turnstiles" album [the one taken in the Astor Place (6) station of all places, too :)]
Stuart, RLine86Man
The Bombardiers have the speakers mounted in the center of the ceiling, the Kawasakis speakers are mounted on the curved side panel below the ceiling.
no difference .....both all styrofoam construction .....
lol!
Aw geez ... relax, bro ... next car order will be 100% adobe. :)
just ventin off some steam mad that i will not B dere' till dis--summer.
oh yea i use the adobe photoshop !!......lol.!!
thankz.
Heh. No, I mean adobe ... like the missions. Good enough for the southwest, good enough for railcars. Hell, the boids are 100% bondo now as it is ... and as we all know, BONDO is ADOBE for automobiles too. :)
Not to worry, the few redbirds that haven't turned to powder will be out there somewhere - after all, Bombardier still has a few of what Microsoft likes to refer to as "known issues" ... bring a can of RAID and get to ride the rotbirds wherever they've landed when you come out to play.
Do me one favor though in the interest of true history, zoom in tight on the anticlimbers, let a few go by on the platform and grab some honest video of where the walls meet the chassis as they roll by. You won't BELIEVE how bad the rot is ... seriously ... word ... bag it while you can, like taggings, it too is a part of subway history - how BAD the cars running right now truly are ... needs to be documented.
Did you ever see that SNL skit with the Adobe car? The seats conform to your body shape and if you get in a wreck, just mold the car back to normal!
Pretty much describes da boids and yeah ... heh. EXACTLY the visual I was trying to project. Car inspectors these days not only carry the trusty ball-pein, but a spatula too. :)
Maybe the NYCT should contract with Playdough. They could make whole cars with the Playdough Fun Factory.
There are some in the system that firmly believe Bombardier purchased the rights to the fun factory. When Bondo explodes, you'll know that the 142's have truly attained entropy. :)
I think the Bondo will survive long after the carbon steel is turned to mush. Perhaps a new fish life form may grow from it bringing about some new industry in the Atlantic. CI Peter
Golden-tailed Bondo bubblers? :)
How about the R62 series and R68 Series. I know some R78 series have sliding cab doors vs hinged cab doors but I am talking about mechanical differences.
Well, the fact that the R68 first series (just plain ol' R-68) was built by Westinghawse...and the supplemental series (a.k.a.: R-68Alpha) was built entirely by Kawasaki [yeah...the company that makes those NARLY jetskis!!]..........and there's this "WEIRD" sound that some of the R-68 (regular) make.....probably from the transformers....as far as the 62's go, the "original" series was made by Kawasaki [yeah, THEM again :)], and the "supplemental" series was made by Bombardier of Canada....other differences in the R-62 series: the original series was made into "married" pairs, while the R-62Alpha (supplemental) were made into SINGLE cars, much like ALL of the R-68 and 68Alphas, at first---although in the last 2 or 3 years, the MTA has been (slowly, I'll admit) recoupling them into 4 car sets, even numbers on cars 1 and 4, odd numbers on cars 2 and 3. (and 5 and 8, and 6 and 7)
Dunno if I missed anything........let me know.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Remember this. The R-44, 46, 68 and 68A use the even numbers as the operating (control) unit, and the odd numbers are trailers (non-operating). My favorite B division unit is the R68/68A, so I will show you how they team up the cars.
R-68's (2500-2915) run on the main lines starting as this example of this train.
2500-2501-2503-2502=2914-2915-2913-2912
2916-2924 are semi-coupled, (sometimes singles) and run on the Franklin Ave. shuttle as 2-car units.
R68A (5001-5200) would run like this:
5002-5001-5003-5004=5198-5197-5199-5200
Can someone correct me regarding the Franklin shuttle cars if I was wrong?
>>>My favorite B division unit is the R68/68A...<<<
SHHH, I agree with you but that's not a popular opinion around here. 8-).
Peace,
ANDEE
And some physical differences I've noticed:
Obviously the R62/R62A is built to A-division specs while the R68/R68A is built to 75-foot B-division specs. One thing that comes with that is that the R68 and R68A have the "conversational" type seating while the R62 and R62A have the side seating. But beyond that the shape is also somewhat different. The R62/R62A is essentially flat on the sides, kind of like a redbird, while the R68/R68A has rounded sides like every B-division car from the R40 on until the R143 (especially since the R44). Also, the R62/R62A have only two ridges under the side windows, creating sort of an uncolored "stripe" (a little like the R44 and R46, but somehow more pleasing to the eye) while the R68/R68A have three ridges, with one more or less in the center.
Uh...Not exactly what was asked for, but I felt like posting some observations. When I first started riding the subways I was trying to figure out whether they were the same thing, and that perhaps they were letting IRT stock on the BMT/IND. I figured it out soon enough.
I may be in the minority, but I LIKE that silver interior. I think it's cheery.
:-) Andrew
*grrr@scratched up silver interior*
The 62's are FLAT on da sides because if they wuz curved, they'd SCRATCH against the tunnel valls.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Good point. They could've made them narrower, but then that's less passenger space.
:-) Andrew
Play-Doh turns mushy when mixed with water, even after it hardens. My niece had gone through a ton of it already, I'm sure.
Some "F" conductors are still announcing the 63rd Street routing as if it were merely a detour ("This train will operate through the 63rd Street connection....") only for their specific trips. It's the NORMAL routing; shouldn't it be announced as such?
The signs on the V and F also intentionally say which tube they're going through, which I find odd. I guess in a few months when people get used to it, they'll stop mentioning it.
Last month a Russian homeless guy refused to get on the D at 145, he was waiting for a D to Coney Island and did not want to transfer.
Hmph.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Was he reeking of vodka?
Probably wuz, the stupid *beeping rapidly*
Stuart, RLine86Man
Are you from Russia?
DA!
Are you drunk yet?
da
*lmao*
Stuart, RLine86Man
I guess his train will come....in 3 years or so.
>>>Last month a Russian homeless guy refused to get on the D at 145, he was waiting for a D to Coney Island and did not want to transfer. <<<
He was still there when I went through there this AM. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
[The signs on the V and F also intentionally say which tube they're going through, which I find odd. I guess in a few months when people get used to it, they'll stop mentioning it.]
Then again, there was an E the other day signed as follows:
E
JAMAICA CTR
PARSONS/ARCHER
via 63 ST
QUEENS BL LCL
Of course, it was using 53rd Street and the Queens Blvd express track!
When the N started terminating at 86st, they made extra announcements about it for about a month. Even now, when we near New Utrecht, they still say that it will be terminating at 86st and for service to CI, transfer here to the W.
Let's not forget, and speaking as a conductor, NOT EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THE F LINE ROUTING HAS CHANGED!!! I frequently come across, during the space of my work day, people who STILL think that the F train runs via 53rd Street (asking if the F stops at Queens Plaza, 5th Avenue, Lex-53rd, etc.). I frequently correct them, and they (those who listen to the announcements) always thank me for giving them the proper information and appreciate it. So as for conductors announcing the F running via 63rd Street, we are merely doing our jobs as we are supposed to do. It's part of our duties to keep the public informed, and since not a lot of the public knows the changes fully, we are doing EXACTLY what we are supposed to do!! Don't knock us for doing our jobs as WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO THEM!! (Think about this next time you come across one of the conductors who do NO announcements, leaving you clueless as to what's going on!!)
Hi Folks,
Has anybody posted the car assignment spreadsheet info since the Dec. 16 changes? I'm almost ready to go to press with version 3.1 and I'd like to include the most up-to-date information with respect to car/yard/line assignments.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Peter,
Be advised of the track layout of Stillwell Av at the present time, notably track A.
Version 3 doesn't show this correctly, but track A becomes track E2 through an "S" Curve arrangement upon leaving the station (past 926 Ball). The switch from track C/E1 is in place but currently disconnected.
Regards,
Stef
P.S. You did extremely well with Version 3. Keep up the good work!
Be advised of the track layout of Stillwell Av at the present time, notably track A.
Version 3 doesn't show this correctly, but track A becomes track E2 through an "S" Curve arrangement upon leaving the station (past 926 Ball). The switch from track C/E1 is in place but currently disconnected.
P.S. You did extremely well with Version 3. Keep up the good work!
Hi Stef,
Thanks for the correction. I was relying on drawings for this one rather than personal observation. Just shows to go ya < grin >. Well, this has certainly delayed things a little bit for me since I likely won't have the time to go and look during daylight hours this week.
Actually, I'd like to know if any track changes are planned to the Stillwell terminal once all is said and done, or are they just going to put every track back the same as it was before. I've not seen any single-line contract drawings on this at all.
An thanks very much for your kind words--they're always deeply appreciated.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Your guess is as good as mine, but I believe the track arrangement may be the same as before at Stillwell, with the exception of a ninth track to be used for a Brighton Deadhead Moves to the yard. I don't know for sure and nothing is etched in stone. Take Care.
-Stef
Peter, The copy I have is too poor to scan. When I get back to work, hopefully some time this week, I'll try again to get a descent copy
Peter, The copy I have is too poor to scan. When I get back to work, hopefully some time this week, I'll try again to get a descent copy
OK Steve, Thanks...that's greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
I was talking to a crain opt. last night wheli sitting at East Broadway Station. He said that the TA is going to build the new 1/9 line. They are going to move it over and build a new South Ferry Ter. with a two track station. He sayed that since the street are already open that it's should be easy to do. The rpairs that are going on now are temp. It's good to see that the TA is going to do this in house, if this is true infomation.
Robert
None of that is true. The line is going to be rebuilt in place by one or more contractors.
David
I understand FEMA will allow only orginal layout and not allow anything that was different before 9-11.
Phil Hom
Wow!I read several responses and I was surprised at how much wrong, misinformed or rumored information creeps into Subtalk. First off, as far as I know(and I could be wrong but I tend to have an inside track if you pardon the pun because I work for the TA Engineering Dept)the reason that they are sticking with the original alignment of the 1/9 line is that they want to restore subway service down to the Ferry ASAP. This does not take much original engineering work, just dusting off some old blueprints, making some new ones and building the job. It really doesn't have much to do with FEMA since this job will be paid by insurance money. Second, the job will be done by a contractor and their subcontractors versus in house forces. They want this job to be done by Fall of 2002. The bid opening is scheduled for this Friday. The South Ferry station rehab along with the Cortlandt Steret station rehab are destined for a future contract. The Cortlandt street station redo will be done when they know what buildings, structures etc will lay above the new station complex. Incidentally one of the thoughts is to connect the various lines in the area via an underground moving walkway or some such. There were newspaper articles on this topic. Regarding the South Ferry station rehab, they are considering leaving the loop in place for its utility and constructing a three track terminal adjacent to the old South Ferry station which will be capable of berthing 10 car trains each.
Yes, I agree there is a great deal of misinformation out there.
Federal disaster money for publically owned infrastructure is NOT restricted to rebuilding exactly as it was before. Ditto for private insurance money. In fact, one can say the strings attached to such money forbid it to be used for such an exact replacement in that modern engineering, modern code standards, ADA requirements, etc, are to be used. The location of a rebuilt facility may also change greatly. And sometimes, they can just take the money and run, with no replacement being built.
As for changes at South Ferry, they've been talking about these for a good ten years, including a new Terminal. I don't know what they planned for Rector St., but obviously, this is the time to do whatever it is they need to (elevators at least).
If the MTA wanted to totally revamp the South Ferry line (by that I mean building a new alignment west of Greenwich Street, with new stops at Cortlandt, Rector, and a new larger South Ferry terminus) they would to put it in their network expansion plans like they did the 63rd Street extension. If the feds knew that the emergency money was going to be used for new construction projects they would pull the plug in a nanosecond (like they did Pataki when he went down to Washington asking for $54 million extra in aid).
You are correct in that modern codes and standards including the NFPA and ADA etc etc would have to be followed to re-build the line. Rector street will be rebuilt in kind (I have seen an option to connect IRT and BMT Rector Street stations via an underground passageway) however they will install a double crossover south of Rector Street to enable terminal operation.
Rest assured, this job has the highest priority now at the TA and everyone from the Governor on down the line is pushing this to get this done ASAP.
What do you mean Rector Street will be rebuilt? It may be renovated or elevators added, but it isn't actually damaged. You can walk around on the street above and everything there is fine.
Check out this month's "Transit Transit". They have a piece on the rebuilding project.
Check here for the broadcast schedule:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/trantran/showsch.htm
I always watch or tape the one on broadcast Ch 25 on Saturday since I don't have cable.
Hi again,
I haven't had the chance to use the Grand St. Shuttle since it started running to West 4th, so I'm hoping someone onboard can advise whether they're still using B4 track exclusively or also using B3 as well. I've heard conflicting reports, and unfortunately I won't have the chance to get down there before 3.1 goes to press.
Thanks as always...
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Well the Shuttle only operates on the Southbound tracks at Grand Street then once passing Broadway-Lafayette switches either to the Northbound tracks or stays on the Southbound Tracks to terminate at West 4th. They did this to run more trains per hour.
Robert:
They are NOT using the NB "Express" track through Broadway-Lafayette, its all gukked over.
I think they cross from SB to NB south of W4 and relay north of W4.
If I recall correctly it uses two 4-car sets of R-46s.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
From what I've seen so far, most trains switch to the northbound track
past Bway/Lafayette. Although I can't tell this is happening 24/7.
BTW, I live near the 2nd Ave. Stn. and I can't stand the way no one
seem to know which Northbound F/V would leave the station next.
The LED sign should have been "Next uptown train" instead of "F train"
and "V train". Currently there are two separate LED boards.
Now that I have to ride more often with my baby in his stroller,
it is really frustrating.
I have seen evidence of shuttles at W 4th coming in on the uptown express track and going out on the downtown. This agrees with their published schedule (updated in December) which says both of these events happen at the same time (by use of 2 trains).
If you track map is correct they must cross over to the Brooklyn bound track just west of Bway Lafayette and only use that track from there to Grand St.
I have seen evidence of shuttles at W 4th coming in on the uptown express track and going out on the downtown. This agrees with their published schedule (updated in December) which says both of these events happen at the same time (by use of 2 trains).
If you track map is correct they must cross over to the Brooklyn bound track just west of Bway Lafayette and only use that track from there to Grand St.
Thanks to everyone for clarifying this for me. I hope to have some time to personally check it out, however I'm right up against deadline for version 3.1 (it has to be at the printers Monday morning).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.1 AVAILABLE Feb. 14th (or earlier)!
I took the LIRR to Penn station today, which was a slow ride.
Penn station's Amtrak section was a zoo, on the top of the screen is a canceled Acela express. It's also a big hangout for the homeless, after seeing all them camped out in the restroom I decided to get outta there and head for the 8th ave line.
I took an A train which was packed, to 14th street where we caught up the an E.
It was a train of R32's and became quite empty after Canal except for two other guys at the front window and a few homeless on board. It was pretty depressing when we got to WTC. The few people that were on the train got off, a station that once teemed with people now empty.
It was dusty but did not smell.
The south exits to the street were open, and the mall entrance now boarded up guarded by a police officer.
Once you go up that stairs to the street, you are greeted by an empty space where WTC used to be. There's nothing left now, it is all gone. It looks like a work site now. What an empty feeling. You walk north along a pedestrian corridor, and I headed back east toward Broadway.
Downtown was a ghostown today except for the tourists taking pictures, of the site and the large memorial on Broadway.
Wendy's at lunch hour was empty, who'd know it was "lunch hour".
I have to say riding the subways today there were alot of homeless around, camping out in and around the stations. Perhaps more than I have ever seen. Guess it's a sign of the times.
Once you go up that stairs to the street, you are greeted by an empty space where WTC used to be. There's nothing left now, it is all gone. It looks like a work site now. What an empty feeling. You walk north along a pedestrian corridor, and I headed back east toward Broadway.
It's difficult to imagine that one of the world's biggest commercial complexes used to be there. I obviously know that the WTC used to be on that site, yet I find it increasingly difficult to visualize it the way it was less than six months ago.
"Downtown was a ghostown today except for the tourists taking pictures, of the site and the large memorial on Broadway."
Of course the immediate vicinity of the WTC is very deserted compared to its former self. But if you go east of Broadway you will hardly know that anything has changed. Wall Street at rush hour is packed with pedestrians, especially because they have closed part of the south sidewalk. Water Street is jammed with traffic and people. Chambers Street is very crowded again too, with the BMCC students back. Even the World Finanical Center is no longer deserted, though it has a long way to go before it is back to its previous density.
You guys are doing great. We now have several more nicknames for Fred's favorite line.
#4 Sea Bits
#4 Sea Breeze
#4 Slow Beach
#4 Sea Ditch
#4 Sea Bitch
#4 Sea Hag
#4 Sloth Beach
#4 Fred's Folly
#4 Sea Weed
Larry, That's all....NINE !
One more, make it an even TEN !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: Lets make it a Baker's Dozen. Tomorrow night we will begin a discussion of a proper Brooklyn Railroad aka the Brooklyn,Faltbush and Coney Island Railroad.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Now you've got your priorities straight.
Just keep them coming boys. The more you talk about it the more popular my favorite train becomes. We've sort of put the Frighten out to pasture lately.
How about some of these names for the Brighton.
The Frighten
The Unlighten
The Dullten
The Bruten
The Slighten
The Nighten
Bob's Bomb
Q's Queerton
Doug's Dugout
about as ridiculous as some of the ones you hung on my line.
>>How about some of these names for the Brighton.<
YAWN !
Bill "Newkirk"
Fred admits his 2nd favorite line was the Brighton because it went to Ebbets Field
Well, it would make a Brighton-Sea Beach debate aka shouting match that much more interesting.:-)
Fred, your jealousy of the Brighton has made you "mentally challenged".
Q = Queuing up. Riders on the Slow Beach never have to do so. There are simply not enough riders.
Q = Quick. As a Slow Beach fan, I'm that sounds queer to you.
Q = Quiet. Those R68s are quiet.
Q = Quality of service. Highest MDBF in the system, for both the R68s and the R40s.
Qapisce?
You can add "Sumbeach" ... moo. :)
#Foe C Beets
And for the other one:
Duh Bitin' Lion
Don't forget See (with an "e') Beech (misprouncination of B--ch)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hello Everyone, today in the Phila Daily news there was an article stating that Amtrak will probably axe the 3 Rivers and Pennsylvanian. Do you think thats possible? How would someone get from Phila to Chicago. Go all the way down to Washington and take the train outta there to Chicago? Or would i fly since it looks like thats what Congress wants us to do anyway. What does everyone think the out come will be?
(How would someone get from Phila to Chicago. Would i fly since it looks like thats what Congress wants us to do anyway. What does everyone think the out come will be?)
I expect that there will be no trains between the Midwest and the East Coast, because they take too long and don't pay. You'll get trains down the east coast, perhaps extending south to growing metros like Richmond, Charlotte, Atlanta, because you have a lot of dense areas in a row. You'll get something down the West Coast for the same reason. Eventually, you might get a bunch of Midwestern lines passing through Chicago like spokes on a wheel. That's about it.
Bring back the private carriers anyday
The whole reason we have ATK is that the privaes were failing. remember PennCentral? WRITE your Congress people early and often Tll them you want full multibillion funding for intercity rail service to continue and improve.
"I expect that there will be no trains between the Midwest and the East Coast, because they take too long and don't pay. You'll get trains down the east coast, perhaps extending south to growing metros like Richmond, Charlotte, Atlanta, because you have a lot of dense areas in a row."
Umm,
1) the trains between Chicago and the East serve Toledo, Cleveland, and then either Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and on by the Keystone Corridor or Erie, Buffalo, and on by the Empire Corridor. There's plenty of cities in fairly rapid succession along the Chicago-East Coast routes. The Cardinal is the big exception, and it runs thrice weekly.
2) The Silver trains take 29 hours between New York and Miami, and the Crescent roughly 18 hours from New York to Atlanta. The Capitol Limited takes about the same 18 hours between Chicago and Washington DC and the Lake Shore Limited takes 20 hours from Chicago to New York. How in the name of all the gods do you figure that the Chicago-East Coast trains take too long but the East Coast trains don't?!?!
As to the Chicago-East Coast routes not paying, tell me the profit the Federal Highway Administration declared last year and I'll drop my support for long-distance trains.
Part of the difference I think is in perception. The Florida routes tend to cater to more people either on vacation with Central/South Florida as their destination or retirees who have more free time to spare. East Coast-Midwest trips also have some vacationers, but in general the bulk of that traffic is more business-oriented, where time becomes more of a factor.
If the states and federal government could ever get together on a dedicated high-speed line between the East Coast and Midwest similar to the trains in Europe and Japan, that might be able to lure some business traffic away, but the current time schedules don't work to the trains' advantage.
I go to NY Penn often anjd sometimes Newark Penn. I alwasy check the arrivals boardas well as departures board since once can and often causeas problems for the other. Many times I see the Three Rivers running 5-6 and more hours late. I have kidded that the three rivers are the Nile, Danube and the Yanghtze.
The problem w/ the 3 Rivers is CSX and its hopelessly jammed main line through Ohio. The Pennsylvanian usually runs 100% on time on virtually the same route. The only differance is that it runs on NS trackage and is carrying NS (JB Hunt) intermodal trailers. NS gives the train what they should, priority over regular NS freights. Norfolk Southern is doing its best t act in the spirit of Conrail. CSX is a bunch of wankers that coudln't run a train into a hole in the Earth. Did you know that some CSX intermodal trains average 22 mph?
Cannot Sustain eXcellence
<< If the states and federal government could ever get together on a dedicated high-speed line between the East Coast and Midwest similar to the trains in Europe and Japan, that might be able to lure some business traffic away, but the current time schedules don't work to the trains' advantage. >>
I doubt you'll ever see a sigificant amount of business traffic on a Chicago- NYP run, even if they do upgrade the line to 125 standards. It would still take too darn long. A business person can fly to ORD in the a.m. and back to LGA in the evening, making a (long) one-day trip. Ain't gonna happen by train and with more and more businesses reducing costs by mandating one-day trips to save money on hotels and meals, the impetus is to get-'em-in-and-get-'em-back ASAP.
I heard that the Pennsylvanian turns a profit as it is basically a Norfolk Southern intermodal train that passes itself off as a passenger train. Anyway, PennDoT should fund the Pennsylvanian through to Pittsburgh like they used to go back before it became a freight train.
I guess that means Keystone service from NY, Philly, and Harrisburg will be axed, too. With the Pennsylvanian and three rivers going out, This will kill all the service to Harrisburg's beautiful 160 year old train station. What a shame!!
"I guess that means Keystone service from NY, Philly, and Harrisburg will be axed, too."
No, it doesn't. Amtrak specifically excluded state-financed routes from those subject to termination if they don't get the $1.2 billion. As long as PennDOT keeps coughing up the money, Amtrak will keep running the Keystone trains.
(laughs like beavis and butthead) huh huh huh.....score..... :)
?????
I dont think they will axe the Silver Service.Those trains are always SOLD OUT in the summer,and i have even seen AMTRAK add cars during peak tourism seasons.Same with the Twilight Shoreliner, its very hard to get a seat on that train.
Ummm ... this is POLITICS, not logic ... never make the mistake of trying to apply logic to anything trotted out by the elected ... it's all posturing and baboon rituals ... gets worse when there's cameras.
I agree. AMTRAK is talking about cutting servive in Oct if they don't get $$$$ from the goverment. I think by Oct they will get some money but not cut service like they threaten to. And maybe new management at AMTRAK will take over so maybe they'll be able to do more with less.
Wishful thinking but one can hope!
Congress made the mess, congress won't clean up the mess, time to clean up congress ... November's coming ... make it MEAN something.
September 25,1876 New York & Sea Beach Railroad Company founded.
July 17,1877 Trains started running from Bath Junction (62 St-New Utrecht) to Sea Beach Palace.(Surf Av btwn W 8 and W 11 Sts).
September 1,1877 service discontinued
July 17,1879 Service resumes with trains operating between Bay Ridge (65 Street Dock) and Coney Island during summer only
1882 double track from Bay Ridge to 86 Street
May 12,1883 Reorganized as New York & Sea Beach Railway Compnay
Summer 1884 All year service
1885 entire line double track
August 29,1896 reorganized as Sea Beach Railway Company
November 5,1897 Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company secures control of Sea Beach Railway and leases it to Brooklyn Heights Railroad Company
May 20,1898 electric trains begin running
1898 3 Avenue,Court St and 5 Avenue trolleys start running from Park Row to Coney Island
Trains run from 65 St Dock to Coney Island
1903 Through service between Park Row and Coney Island via 5 Av El and West End Line to Bath Junction then on Sea Beach to Coney.
1906 Terminal relocated from 65 Street Dock to 63 Street Dock
February 28,1907 Lease of SB to BHRR canceled
1907 probably discontinued trolley service. Discontinued service to Sea Beach Palace and extended to West End Terminal via ROW north of Surf Avenue
October 2,1908 Re-located to present ROW between 86 Street and West End Terminal
November 30,1912 Sea Beach Railway, Canarsie Railroad and Brooklyn Union Elevated Railroad consolidated as New York Consolidated Railroad Company
This is from an excerpt from an article in the Bulletin of the New York Division ERA taken from the Edward B Watson and Arthur J Lonto Collection.
Hope you like it Fred,
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank you sir. But to me the red letter day is June 22, 1915 when the Sea Beach Express made its first run on the new Standards.
Of course, Sea Beach trains went only as far as Chambers St. originally, using the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. The Broadway line opened later, piecemeal.
In response to some question about sidings on the Sea Beach Line I came accross the following. Rubel Ice Company siding located between New Utrecht and 18 Avenue connecting to northbound local track removed 1930's. Huber Ice Company siding located west of 8 Avenue and connecting to northbound local removed June 1953.
At least the Franklin had a siding to a brewery.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You could write a book, Larry. Several books, for that matter.
Thanks Steve: Maybe if I ever learn how to fully use this computer I'll do that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, the Franklin had sidings to TWO breweries: (1) Consumer's Park and (2) Nassau Brewing (an early version of Budweiser). The Nassau Brewing facility later became a Heinz packageing plant (as in 57 Varieties).
Unfortunately, I do not believe Heinz was served by BRT rail freight.
BMTman
Doug: The sidings on the Brighton were always more interesting then those on the Sea Beach. In addition to the two that went to the "Suds Factories" that you mentioned they also had one to the racetrack.
You could lose your savings in one siding and drown your sorrows in another.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Good Point! LOL!
Other than that TriRail, what trains/subways are there in Florida? Are they worth riding?
Thanks, in advance.
Miami Metrorail and MetroMover -- neither goes below ground, but both should be ridden at least once.
David
Jacksonville elevated monorail. This webpage has a description under US transit cities. This is built over the MATRA people mover.
Opening soon: Tampa's "TECO Line" Streetcar. More info here:
http://www.hartline.org/news/new_events/streetcar/index.htm
I was in Ybor City a couple of weeks ago, the tracks look like they were all in place, they were just putting up the overhead wires.
I know they are on the R142s, not the point. In June, while going fanning with Trevor on a R142A, I peeled off one of these stickers that had a barcode on it with the car number. I put it on my backpack and carried it around. The car was 7360, now, 7360 has 2 stickers, where they are supposed to go. I thought these stickers are for delivery purposes, and used at the plant for some reason. Are these stickers maintained and used by the MTA? If so, what purpose do they serve?
Tsk Tsk Tsk
When they built the DeKalb Avenue subway station, why did they make the B/W line skip this stop?Is there any special reason why they had to do that?
There are six tracks but only two platforms. If they were to have another platform, they would have had to double-deck the station, a la W4.
I think his question was why build the 2 extra tracks in the first place.
There are 6 tracks coming in from 2 different sources (4th Ave and Brighton). There are six tracks out (4 manh bridge and 2 tunnel). If you only had 4 in the station you would have a real bottleneck. As it was originally built, it was a bottleneck with all the switching, and would have been even worse with only 4 tracks.
Just call it a local 4th Ave stop with Pacific as the next express stop >G<.
No joke, that's true. DeKalb was considered a local stop on the Fourth Avenue Line.
The layout of DeKalb Ave station is a relic of a half-built line, changed in mid-construction, much like the never-completed lower level of the BMT City Hall station.
The original plan for the BMT Fourth Ave. subway was a four track line from Bay Ridge to the Manhattan Bridge. In fact, the two-track section south of 59th St was built under half of Fourth Ave to leave room for the other two tracks.
Under the plan, 59th St, 36th St, and Pacific St were to be express stations, and DeKalb Ave and Myrtle Ave were to be local stations. The connections to the Brighton line and the Montague St. tunnel were not part of the plans. When they were added to the plans, the partially completed DeKalb Ave station was modified, resulting in the arrangement with the bypass tracks that survives to this day.
-- Ed Sachs
IIRC DeKalb was originally planed as a four-track local stop with side platforms. The outer tracks were added and the platforms became island platforms. I'm not sure if construction had already begun when it was decided to add the outer tracks.
The 4th Ave. express tracks lead directly to the DeKalb bypass tracks which in turn lead to the Manhattan Bridge. No passing Go, no collecting $200. Since the B/W already runs express and uses the bridge, keeping it on the bypass tracks tracks eliminates the need for switching in order to stop at DeKalb, thus reducing delays.
There's a nice write-up about the efforts to build the trolley line in Red Hook, Brooklyn. Click here.
The article contradicts itself though. In the beginning, it states that 1.7 miles of track have been constructed, but at the end it says that several hundred feet have been put down. Anyone know which statement is correct?
I hope they can resolve the funding issue soon. It sounds like a fun project.
Happy reading!
JR
Aggh, this has already been a thread... here.
For some reason I thought today was the 3rd, and only searched the lists for one day. Sorry.
:( JR
it states that 1.7 miles of track have been
constructed, but at the end it says that several hundred feet have been put down. Anyone know which statement is correct?
The latter statement is correct. 1.7 miles refers to the total
proposed length of the line.
My past visit a few months ago, the have track from the where the two fully restored cars are (allbeit the track and overhead is damaged at the pier) then along the water on private property up to a street (with overhead) most of the PCC's are stored under tarps (he has some more at the Navy Yard). Then the street was dug up for about 200-300 feet from the property line to the first corner and they had laid track but had not finished spiking it. The day we were there they were putting up wood fences to start breaking up the street to add almost a loop back to the pier.
Hope that is clear as mud.
SOME at the Navy Yard? Try like 8 or 9 as far as I remember from last Saturday.
There are 11 ex-Shaker PCC's in storage at the Navy Yard.
51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 60, 61, 62, 67, 68, and 69. 70, which the BHRA got running on 07/03/01, is in Red Hook undergoing restoration. All are ex-TCRT cars which are from the same St. Louis Car Co. order #1670 as 1-20 and 21-25 the Newark PCC's.
The three ex-Boston cars in Red Hook are 3303(inside the carbarn), 3299 and 3321. 3321 is the last trolley built by Pullman Standard at the old Osgood-Bradley plant in Woster, MA.
Just a tiny weeny nit to pick....those ex-Shaker cars were
not order 1670. They were from the 1947 order, SLCC#1660,
same as Newark 21-25. Newark 1-20 was order 1653 and 25-30
was 1670.
What became of the remainder of the 20 Shaker cars 51-70?
Shaker Heights #56 and #58 are owned by Vintage Electric Streetcar Company of Windber, PA. SHRT #63 is owned by Trolleyville, U.S.A. in Olmsted Falls, OH. Other than those cars, BHR owns all of the surviving Shaker Heights St. Louie PCC's.
Frank Hicks
66 is still on the GCRTA property, along with a Pullman, and Peter Witt #12. Maybe not for too long, GCRTA manager wants the "junk" off the property.
64 is missing from the list of the whereabouts of the ex-TCRT cars.
57, 59, and 65 were scrapped due to collision damage.
JeffH. -
Sorry about the order number mixup, I was doing it off of memory late at night, and I guess I remembered 1670. I have order 1660 documented in my files when I was doing my research for car body serial numbers (FYI there aren't any, just order & operator numbers like on #27).
The #1660 Cars were ordered Aug 45, dely Aug-Oct 47.
Jan
One teeny little boo-boo.
GCRTA 12 (nee SHRT 12, CIRR 1212, CRY 1212) is NOT a Peter Witt- it's a Center Door car. None of the "big" Witts (4000's) were saved, a real shame. I know of at least 4 museums that would almost sell their souls for a 4000 witt.
The last 4000's died in 1954, when Madison quit. The museum movement wasn't born or evolved enough to go after one.
Ok, it seems that everyone wants a piece of me for technicalities. Being a Cleveland fan, I should have known better. We call them 1200's too, but the series ran from 1100-1300 at CRwy.
There was a 4000 series car saved, but unfortunately not for long. It was stored in the backyard of a local railfan, and when it came time for it to be moved by crane years later, the thing disintergrated. Chalk up another one for Northern Ohio rust.
Too bad a 5000 series articulated wasn't saved either, but can you imagine trying to maintain that thing??
I hadn't realized that somebody tried to save a 4000, but I suspect what they got was an accident victim that had frame damage. CRry tended to go for outside storage (every barn had a yard outside, and a lot of stuff went ouside, so just sitting outside in a back yard should not have made too much of a difference. Either the car was a junker to begin with, or the rigger didn't know what he was doing.
Streetcars of the 1920's were pretty tough, especially if the car wasn't a lightweight. Frames, steel sides with riveted construction. Took lots of abuse.
Our (BSM) witt (Brill, 1930) was craned several times, stored outside at Lake Roland for 6 years, manhandled by industrial fork lifts at one storage location (the cars were shoehorned into a wharehouse down a 16 foot wide alley - twice!)
>>69. 70, which the BHRA got running on 07/03/01, is in Red Hook undergoing restoration.<<
I haven't been there as of late, but the when I was there last, one of the ose cars had the paint being stripped off and the old TCRT yellow was showing through. Was that yellow a NCL paint scheme ?
Jan, any more news to report about BHRA ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill,
The TCRT [yellow] was never a NCL property. The politicos of the
day screwed that up all by themselves and were indicted for same,
but by then the property was dismantled.
I know many condemn NCL, but look at Philly it was NCL prior to
SEPTA, then the street cars went down the scarp line. NCL maintained
what PRT built, where cost effective. They did it in St. Louis also.
-JohnS [Sparky]
SubTalk Alert !
My friend Sparky has found this site ... "oh no Mr Bill !"
Mr rt__:^)
Feh ... we'll take him in ... he'll never be the same. :)
1.7 is the goal. What they have is about four blocks worth of trackage that is going to be looped back to their headquarters on the Pier.
Hopefully, the original goal will be met at some point...
BMTman
Names of 18 Amtrak long-distance routes that could be cut in the fall, followed by the major cities they serve:
--Kentucky Cardinal: Louisville, Ky.-Chicago
--Cardinal: Washington-Cincinnati-Chicago
--Pennsylvanian: Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Chicago
--Silver Palm: New York-Savannah, Ga.-Tampa, Fla.-Miami
--Silver Star: New York-Savannah-Miami
--Silver Meteor: New York-Savannah-Miami
--Crescent: New York City-Atlanta-New Orleans
--Capitol Limited: Washington-Pittsburgh-Chicago
--Three Rivers: New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Chicago
--Twilight Shoreliner: Boston-Washington-Newport News, Va.
--Lake Shore Limited: Chicago-Boston/New York
--City of New Orleans: Chicago-Memphis, Tenn.-New Orleans
--Sunset Limited: Orlando, Fla.-New Orleans-Los Angeles
--Texas Eagle: Chicago-San Antonio
--California Zephyr: Chicago-Emeryville, Calif.
--Empire Builder: Chicago-Seattle/Portland, Ore.
--Southwest Chief: Chicago-Kansas City, Mo.-Los Angeles
--Coast Starlight: Seattle-Portland, Ore.-Los Angeles
No less than ten of those 18 routes terminate in Chicago. If the City of Chicago allows this to happen without putting up a huge fight, I will have lost all faith in this city.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, the speaker of the house, Dennis Hastert *IS* from Chicago so I'm sure this was all planned. After all, he seems to have had no problems with building a Tom DeLay airport in Enronville ... sheesh.
Hastert is from the suburbs of Chicago, which are a million miles away from Chicago politically. IIRC, he's also one of the Republican brass who's pushing for the Peotone Airport boondoggle. Go figure...
I have no idea what his personal stance is on passenger rail, but he wouldn't be the first Republican to throw his weight behind massive pork-barrel aviation or highway projects while telling Amtrak to drop dead in the name of fiscal responsibility.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Maybe the city could arrange for commuter trains from that suburb to be rerouted to Gary, Indiana perhaps. :)
What amuses me also is that none of the boondoggle new Amtrak routes in Texas (which has a four lane highway for each and every individual armadillo) are being cut ... maybe ChiTown needs to tell ole Hastert that Texas isn't his district either.
The two main routes through Texas are on Amtrak's "kill" list -- the Texas Eagle (which gets a partial subsidy from the state -- Amtrak wanted to kill it five years ago but Hutchison worked out a deal with Bush and Democratic Lt. Gov. Bob Bullock for the funding) and the Sunset Limited, which Amtrak wanted to reroute away from San Antonio to run through the Dallas-Ft. Worth area (more potential customers and they wanted to use Ft. Worth as a hub site for an expanded package express delivery service).
Bush's successor, Perry proposed creating new rail routes two weeks ago in the triangle between D-FW, Houston and San Antonio, along with paralell toll roads, at a total cost of $179 billion over 50 years. No word on how Amtrak's cuts might affect those plans.
Yeah, those "new routes" was what I meant ... maybe Tom DeLay will be opening up his pants early this Christmas and the new runs will be funded Enron style ... Chicago though is taking it in the ear from all directions. Maybe Phil Gramm's got some loose funny munny.
Considering DeLay's battles against the light rail line from the SW side of Houston to downtown, his latest stunt of diverting highway funds to help build a new aiport in Sugar Land (a SW Houston suburb) shows some amazing arrogance.
The light rail fight put Tom as the champion of the car owner, who doesn't give a damn about traveling to work with "other people" and wants his money spent on road improvements. This narrows DeLay's consituency service down to the people in his district who can afford their own private planes and don't want to have to trudge all the way up to Houston-Hobby Aiport (on the south side of town) or Bush Intercontinental (on the north side, and to be honest, I wouldn't want to drive from Sugar Land to BIA, given the nut jobs on the roads in Houston).
Must say, a LOT of big brass clangers among them Enron party boys. I don't want to keep turning this to politics, but politics is precisely what's screwing around with Amtrak and everything else. For a party that doesn't believe in government support for anything, this sure is mighty two-faced ... just like our own moron John Sweeney (R, Clifton Pork, NY) who scuttled a commuter rail line because it wouldn't be running in his district, instead it would have run in another district where it would have been USED. This is the same jerk who renamed the Saratoga National Cemetery after the porcine swine he replaced.
Really wish there was a third party to teach the other two a lesson.
John Sweeney (R, Clifton Pork, NY)
Appropriate. Sveeney means pigs in Russian.
This is the same jerk who renamed the Saratoga National Cemetery after the porcine swine he replaced.
My condolences to your district. You had a swine representing you in Congrefs, and then he gets replaced with some human jackass.
Heh. 'nuff said then. :)
In September we were planning to go to Phoenix AZ (Maricopa is the new stop outside Phoenix) on Amtrak.
Is that route on the chopping block?
Sounds like the "Southwest Chief" (or the "McCain fries") and that one's toast also. Maybe we taxpayers can get a refund for that station. :)
Yep. The Sunset Limited (or Texas Eagle, depending on what Amtrak timetable your pick up at what time of the year) is the route that stops in Maricopa (40 miles south of Phoenix) and it's among the long- distance routes on the chopping block.
Who would use an airport with "DELAY" in its name? (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
With Amtrak out of the picture, they could call it "Bendover International" and whatchagonnadoo? :)
Maybe they'll call it Enron International ... the route of the flying elephant ... but I'll bet Disney will sue.
And don't forget the old rail passenger station in Houston near DeLay's district is now part of ... Enron Field! How apprpriate is that? (though if Kenny Boy could have figured out a way to run trains on natural gas, Amtrak's funding probably would have had a lot more outside support over the last decade. Even the oil companies in Texas didn't like Enron, and that's really saying something...)
Heh. Fits together like "Wal*Mart apparel" ... Well, if these clowns get re-elected, we ain't ante'd up enough CASH for the opposition. I'll bet DeLay can be kicked out of office ... wonder how many of his constituents know how DEEPLY he was involved in Endrun? Whoop. I know folks in California would love to see the boy unseated ... Tom DeLay WAS the reason electric rates out there were what they will continue to be for quite some time ... politics is money and money is politics. Time for some of us to vote with our wallets ...
The great thing about Lay, Skilling, et al is that they played both sides of the political street, which means both sides get to bash them because each side has its own dirt -- the leading Democratic candidate for Gramm's Senate seat, Ken Benson was a big recipient of Enron $$$, but then so is his likely opponent, state AG John Cornyn.
Did Enron want the Bushies to adjust the energy policy their way and stay out of regulation? Yes because they were making a killing in the natural gas sales to California (El Paso Co. still is). Did Enron want the Clintonites to pass the Koyoto global warming treaty? Yes, not because Ken Lay is a closet Earth Firster, but because that would hit the oil companies to the benefit of natural gas companies like Enron (and unlike oil, which is dominatined by the foregin state-owned reserves like the Saudis, you can't supertanker natural gas over from the Middle East. So whoever controls the transmission and production contracts within the U.S. and Canada and cozies up to Mexico the best for pipeline transmission connections to their state-owned natural gas can reap a windfall, because there are no other sources. Guess what Enron tried to do over the past decade...)
Actually the big surprise is CANADA ... they've got QUITE the bit of gas and since Shrub is so Mexico-centric and snubbed Canada, Canada's been getting even by selling nat gas to the blue states for dirt cheap, even cheaper than Russian oil. Let's leave it alone. :)
[If the City of Chicago allows this to happen without putting up a huge fight, I will have lost all faith in this city.]
Umm.... Amtrak was created by the U.S. Congress, not the city of Chicago. Chicago isn't responsible for Amtrak and doesn't pay its operating costs, and thus should not get to govern it.
The last I heard, Chicago was part of the United States, and as such, elects several members of Congress. Politically, Chicago is not some backwater; it's leaders (starting with "Da Mare") are quite astute and I'm sure they won't be shy about making their views known.
Chicago isn't responsible for Amtrak and doesn't pay its operating costs, and thus should not get to govern it.
Regardless of whether or not Chicago has any direct control over Amtrak, Chicago remains the passenger railroad hub of the continent and has a huge stake in Amtrak's decisions. I think this gives us more than ample justification for having a say in Amtrak's affairs, the same way Chicago has a huge stake in the affairs of United and American Airlines. (No, Daley doesn't have any direct control over either airline, but he has no qualms about picking up the phone and making a few calls to those who do.) And even if Chicago doesn't directly control Amtrak, you can be certain there's enough powerful politicians on both sides of the aisle from Chicagoland who have an amazing knack for getting their way in Washington.
By your logic, New York would have no reason to object if the FAA suddenly decided to stop all international flights into JFK simply because they didn't feel the airlines were making enough of a profit. After all, the FAA is a federal body, not a municipal agency.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well ... does sound as though if Hastert gets his way, there'll be plenty of track for IRM to run fantrips on. Sounds like some boys need to go out and give that man a little talking to, no? :)
Has Hastern made any public declarations one way or the other about the future of Amtrak? On some issues, he hasn't been as knee-jerk right-wing as some of his GOP brethren... I could see him going either way.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yep ... he's sided with DeLay and McCain ... after all, as "speaker of da house" he could kill any such plans by not allowing it to come to a vote ... and with Amtrak tanking so close to election time, it could get amusing.
Coast Starlight is the biggest Long Distance Moneymaker. Try to get reservatoions in less then 2 weeks.
What is the actual significance of Chicago which makes it such a "big city" in the entire nation?
More than half of transcontinental railroads run through Chicago, and I heard that O'Hare is the busiest airport in the nation.
Is there some sort of attraction to this great city?
Let me explain the airport thing before David Cole jumps in :-)
United and American are the two largest airlines in the world, and they both have hubs at ORD. This is the reason that ORD is a major playa in the airline industry.
From about the 40s to 1998, ORD was the world's buiest in aircraft movments and passengers while ATL was 2nd during that time. ATL took over the passenger title in 1998 and the movment title in 1999. ORD got back the movement title in 2001 (because of increased use of commuter planes, ATL still had more mainline flights) while ATL still has the passenger title now.
The passenger title is more desirable anyway, because passengers spend money and planes just make noise and pollute.
As for the railroads, I'll let David tell you, he's an expert on anything Chicago.
United and American are the two largest airlines in the world, and they both have hubs at ORD. This is the reason that ORD is a major playa in the airline industry.
From about the 40s to 1998, ORD was the world's buiest in aircraft movments and passengers while ATL was 2nd during that time. ATL took over the passenger title in 1998 and the movment title in 1999. ORD got back the movement title in 2001 (because of increased use of commuter planes, ATL still had more mainline flights) while ATL still has the passenger title now.
And LaGuardia is the biggest airport in the nation in terms of O&D (origin and destination) traffic. ORD and ATL, and several others too, have more passengers per year, but many of their passengers are just making connections. Nearly everyone at LGA, in contrast, is beginning or ending a trip.
>>>And LaGuardia is the biggest airport in the nation in terms of O&D (origin and destination) traffic.<<<
I never knew that fact. Thanks for the education.
Peace,
ANDEE
What's "ORD"?
- Lyle Goldman
<< What's "ORD"? >>
The airport code for Chicago - OHare. Like "LGA" for LaGuardia.
The literal translation for ORD is Orchard Field. However, it's been some time since Chicago O'Hare International Airport ever went by the name Orchard Field.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Wait until he tries to figure out "MCO" for Orlando or "COV" for Cincinnati.
Wait until he tries to figure out "MCO" for Orlando or "COV" for Cincinnati.
MCO = McCoy Air Force Base, the original occupant of what's now Orlando International Airport.
CVG (not COV) = Covington Airport/Field/whatever, the original name for what's now Cincinnati International Airport, which is derived from its location in Covington, Kentucky.
Knoxville, TN ---TYS (Tyson Field)
In a nutshell: The shipping, railroads and airlines did not come to Chicago because Chicago was a major city. Chicago became a major city because the shipping, railroads, and a