The preceeding was a test of the SubTalk clock based on that big droping ball on TV. If this post is not recieved just after midnight on Jan 1, 2002 then either Dave's server is off or we have been scammed by either the networks, the NYC Tourism Board or both.
Wow, good timing. 2 seconds. Earthcam was dead from the overload.
Earthcam?
Live stream of times square ball droping.
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/timessquare/
Take it easy. You're just on the money.
Have a happy, healthy, and above all, safe, New Year!
Happy new year to all!!!!!
May this year be a more normal year than last.
Same to you R30 from Amin.
I was in Boston over the weekend, my goal being to ride the entire T (which I did, except for the stations between Reservoir and Riverside).
--What are the old trolley cars laid up in the Boylston station? They are colored orange. Is Boston planning a transit museum?
--Why is the D branch of the Green Line priced more than other lines? The B, C and D inbound can all be accessed from Chestnut Hill Avenue and while it's $1 inbound on the B and C, it's $1.25 on the D (and $2.50 if I wanted to ride from Riverside). After all it seemed a much shorter ride on the D inbound, yet it costs extra.
Once you get away from downtown the Red and Blue lines seem rather more like commuter lines than subway lines, with large headways between stations.
I was hoping the E had been extended to Forest Hills so I cold transfer from the Orange but no luck there.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Re: Boylston Station cars. The PCC belongs to the T and is equiped with a pantograph. It has been used for fan trips, but not recently. The Type 5 belongs to Seashore and is on long term loan to the T. It also has been used for fan trips, but lacks a pantograph. It's less and less likely to be used again.
The D line fares are predicated on the high speed nature of this branch. And you only pay extra when you board, not when leaving. If you left the station on the Red Line in the Quincy and Braintree areas, you would have paid more than $1 there as well.
4 years to go on the E to Arborway..... it requires extensive rebuilding as well as ADA compliant stops. It's been out of service for 16 years and cannot be "grandfathered"
Unfoutnately the Type 5 5734 needs to go back to Seashore it has vestibule problems that need attention before they get worse. As far as the PCC 3295 no one knows whats the disposition of the car with the T's new management. Now that General Manager Bob Prince who was a friend to Seashore and railfans has retired.
In Boston, I was struck by the complete absence of scratchiti. I'm sure Boston has no lack of feral youth wishing to leave their mark on the world, so how does the MBTA deal with it?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've been on enough R142's on the 2 and the 6 to give something of an informed opinion. I've concluded I don't like them that much.
--The cars seem much more small and tight than the redbirds and the R62's (?) found elsewhere in the IRT. The harsh fluorescent lighting and the monochrome blue paint job are not a help in that regard. If I have time, when a crowded R142 #2 arrives, I'll just wait for a #1. I'll admit to having acquired a touch of claustrophobia as I get older.
--I rode a 142 on Thursday and while the automated sound system was just fine, when the conductor chimed in with a message, the PA shrieked and fed back just like a decades-old subway car!
Is it impossible to wire a sound system so it is audible and understandable or is that technology still limited? This was in a months-old subway car!
(Boston's, otoh, seemed a bit low in volume, though there's no loudness or feedback problems)
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can't take a nap on them as easily as in the old redbirds and R62s. Really sucks for the morning commute.
My Mom and Sis feel the same way (space and room inside the R142). According to Mom, she likes the "3 train" better than the "new 2 train". This was of course when the 3 was still running in BK. But right now her monrning and afternoon commutes consists of her "fast" local, the C train along Fulton.
Welcome to the Club, Kev.
They ride & sound just like these junkers we have here in los angeles on the red line subway to nowhere !!
by the way do the heaters work ?? At all ???
& I bet the AC Sucks in the summer !!!
LOL !!
"harsh fluorescent lighting" ...!!
Noticed this back in 2000 winter !!
& at #5 gun hill road at night how long do you have to STUMBLE in the DARK & wait while your eyes ADJ adjust to the dark again ??
""POOF"" like a photographers BRIGHT FLASH !!!
Yea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, it's what I got to work with. The 'floor heaters' do work...if the car gets too warm, upstairs AC kicks in too. Just like the Redbirds. I'm out a car for a few days...have to travel on MY trainsets and the guys know I'm crazy about what is to be fixed in the car I'm riding in. It's a slow long ride up to my yard and the car desk has been generous in enabling me to make up any lateness...I have an excellent attendance record. When summer arrives again, we will 'feel the heat' with defective AC units...motor/compressor problems are out of reach without special hoisting equipment. CI Peter
From you description, it sounds like there was a problem somewhere in the microphone circuit.
What I don't understand is the overall style of the 142 cars - from the pictures I've seen, the interiors don't look pleasant at all and the exterior appearance of the car ends is bizzare.
-Robert King
they dont look good like ...
lol !
You missed your chance to be a Budd salesman...:0)
You mean St. Louis Car--that was an R-38.
Dan
american made ....
How much smaller is the R-142 passenger compartment than that in the other IRT cars?
The walls, I think, are slightly thicker. Four of the cars lose space due to the transverse cab (which is more than twice the width of a standard corner cab) but the other six gain space since they have no cab at all.
I do agree with your overall assessment. Unfortunately for us, they're here to stay.
For this year I have 6 wishes for all of us.
1.Love and prosperity for all
2.No terrorist attacks
3.For all of us to be better people
4.For the R143 to be a sucess
5.For Cortland Street to be fixed as fast as it can
6.Too go without a year of derailments
Happy Newyears too all.
add this to the list:
-No major incidents that kill hundreds of firemen.
Hello all- let me start out by wishing all a happy and healthy New Year!! Also by askign what I'm doing awake at 9AM on Jan. 1......
Anyhow, in the thread about rumored railfan window restrictions, another topic very and dear to my heart came up, something I thought deserved its own post.
There was some talk of the moral significance of fare evasion, and a few derisive comparisons of fare evasion with spitting on the sidewalk.
In fact, it's been my belief for many years that Rule Number One for use of public transit is that the legal fare must be paid in full, by each rider, virtually without exeception.
Why? well for several reasons:
1) First and foremost it, demonstrates RESPECT for the system.
2) As a corrolary to the above, when you pay your fare, you become in a sense, a shareholder in the system. You're far less likely to litter and/or vandalize something you've invested your hard-earned money into.
3) A person or persons entering the system with murder or other serious mayhem in mind probably has total contempt for people he sees as weaker than himself. He's not likely to stop and buy a token or MetroCard first. As the Chief of the former Transit Police Department, Bill Bratton understood this. When SERIOUS fare enforcement was undertaken in the early 90s, violent crime in the system dropped simultaneously. Who knows how many innocents escaped murder or lesser violence as a result?
(aside: does anyone think that the kids who murdered the toursit from Utah in 1990 paid their fare first? You know, the ass***** who claimed that the victim "fell on my knife")
4) This is not to say that some of the very young folks whov've posted here about misusing school passes are violent criminals. I would never make such an accusation against my fellow sub-talker. However, rules must be applied to all, whether you've got a rap sheet a mile long or are a Stuyvessant student selling rides from an unlimited pass at Chambers/West Broadway, or a stockbroker on Wall Street.
I do think that an afternoon in lockup would discourage you from ever manipulating your student Metro Card again. Execs in suits could be similarly deterred.
Finally, I also think there are too many passes given out. Some such as for students (to be used school days ONLY), for the very elderly (75+), and the obviously infirm are OK. But I see far too many people who look very strong with reduced fare passes. For all the reasons above, that's not appropriate either.
OK, there, I got that rant off my chest......
I believe though student cards should only be used on school days, they work for anyday Monday to Friday 5:30AM-8:30PM, even Thanksgiving and Christmas.
I think half fare discounts for the elderly should only be good during off peak hours. Children get no discounts at all, unless they have school passes. And my child's school pass does not allow her to take the subway -- half fare passes are bus only.
Do you put money on the half-fare pass or do you dip that in first, then another card or put in exact change of half a fare?
I don't know wheather you put money but if you swipe it at a bus and it is empty it will tell you deposit 75 cents.
A student pass cannot have money put in. Therefore, buildmorelines description applies.
I know! Note: I never gave a swipe of my card to anyone else but me.
As a student, I personally think the whole system is screwed up. If they don't want you using a metrocard on a certain day, they should make it well known. They have the ability to make metrocard readers reject a card on certain times or days, so they should use it. The only valid reason I can think of for not doing so is so that cops can rack up their ticket count and fill their quotas.
Furthermore, the rules aren't specified anywhere. When I was caught for using it last week to go to the library, I didn't know that it could only be used on days when school was in session. I thought using it for any school-related activity (going to the library to work on a term paper) was valid. If the turnstile had simply rejected it, the matter would've been closed, and I would've used the normal metrocard I keep in my wallet.
I have no problem following rules and paying my fare, but when they set the system up to catch people, that's just entrapment.
Furthermore, the rules aren't specified anywhere.
Obviously, things have changed since I last used a TA school pass in 1959. My pass at that time had the rules and regulations printed on the back of the card.
I have never got in trouble for using it but bus drivers do give me a hard time, that supposedly school is closed, Racists.
What the MTA ought to do is not just that, but cut out this half-fare/reduced fare nonsense already. I went to High School at Fordham Prep and because I lived in Norwood I supposedly "lived too close" to qualify for a reduced fare pass. When you barely have enough in your pocket for lunch on a given day, that's still a bit of change for a 14 year-old. Afer that first year, I think I used that pass once, maybe twice. It wasn't worth my while. I just did the 25-30 minute walk from Southern Blvd to Perry Ave.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the school day/week doesn't end at 3:00 or even at 5:30 anymore. I have sisters who work in "extended day" or afterschool programs where kids are pretty much in school until almost 7 or 8 at night. The lines are blurring between the end of the school day or even the week.
The computers that figure out whether you qualify for a pass use a radius from the school. They don't take into account the street layout, bodies of water, and topography.
That's why I suggest a "flat pass" for all Students within the 5 boroughs, Long Island and Westchester.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the school day/week doesn't end at 3:00 or even at 5:30 anymore.
I know exactly what you mean. My school forces us to do extra-cirricular activities. Some are held in school, while others, you need to travel for.
<<<"I thought using it for any school-related activity (going to the library to work on a term paper) was valid. If the turnstile had simply rejected it, the matter would've been closed, and I would've used the normal metrocard I keep in my wallet.
I have no problem following rules and paying my fare, but when they set the system up to catch people, that's just entrapment.">>>
This makes a lot of sense. I wasn't complaining about students using their passes to go to the library. Morally, I find that quite legitimate.
I was referring to people selling rides, shorting bus fares, and/or simply jumping turnstiles
It's been almost three years since I went to school in Brooklyn (E.R. Murrow HS), but IIRC Private schools also got Student MetroCards. Some private schools do not close for the same holidays that public schools do, and so they would need to have their student cards be active on those days. I'm not sure how much time and energy the TA wishes to expend on figuring out which cards are at which schools that observe which holidays and shut them off selectively, or just to leave the system as-is. Of course, I could be wrong about the private-school thing, but I'm fairly certain I remember a few of my friends who went to private school taking the train (D/Q Brighton Line) to the city with me on holidays (both official and non-official :) ).
On another note.. I remember the "three-swipe" limitation being quite a hassle for us on those "non-official" holidays we used to take. We would have to figure out how we would get everywhere we wanted to go, using no more than three swipes, with associated transfers.
--
Ian P.
>>>Hello all- let me start out by wishing all a happy and healthy New Year!! Also by askign what I'm doing awake at 9AM on Jan. 1......
<<<
UMM... you haven't been to sleep yet? 8-)
I'm still trying to figure out what I'm doing up at 1100
Peace,
ANDEE
Bravo! A very sensible post. May others follow your example.
Thank You.
Finally, I also think there are too many passes given out. Some such as for students (to be used school days ONLY), for the very elderly (75+), and the obviously infirm are OK. But I see far too many people who look very strong with reduced fare passes.
I believe federal law requires that off-peak discounts be made available to anyone over age 65(?). Not everyone who looks very strong is very strong.
I wish there were some way for the TA to offer half-fare passes for temporary or recurring disabilities. I've paid many an extra fare due to the occasional acute pain in my left knee, which is normally not present but, when it is, is very painful and lasts for the rest of the day (at least). I don't see how this could be done without leaving the system open to abuse.
(I believe federal law requires that off-peak discounts be made available to anyone over age 65(?).)
But the TA makes the discounts available on peak as well. The elderly get so many privileges these days, regardless of need, that it amounts to child abuse.
>>> I wish there were some way for the TA to offer half-fare passes for temporary or recurring disabilities. I've paid many an extra fare due to the occasional acute pain in my left knee, which is normally not present but, when it is, is very painful and lasts for the rest of the day (at least). <<<
I think I have mentioned to you before that you are probably eligible for a disability fare. Recurring disabilities are not temporary. Someone with arthritis or a heart condition may not have pain all the time, but has a continuing disability. A temporary disability such as a broken leg from an accident could be accommodated in the same way temporary handicapped placards are given to motorists. In California, one of the ways to qualify for a reduced fare pass is to have a handicapped placard. In New York, even if you do not own a car, you can probably obtain a placard which can be used in any car you are riding in.
Tom
Someone with arthritis or a heart condition may not have pain all the time, but has a continuing disability.
Quite true. I had an argument with a police officer a year or so ago who was quite convinced that my handicapped placard must have been fraudulently obtained, since I walked back to my car with no difficulty. At the time I had parked it there, however (some three hours earlier), I was barely able to walk from the car to the theater, even with Jr.'s assistance. Logic (or charity - it was Christmas day) prevailed, and I didn't have to deal with a ticket, but the lack of knowledge by the officer was surprising.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Logic (or charity - it was Christmas day) prevailed, and I didn't have to deal with a ticket, but the lack of knowledge by the officer was surprising <<<
In California (where there has been much fraudulent use of handicapped placards) when one is issued a placard, he also gets a registration form to carry in his wallet which has his name and address and the serial number assigned to the placard. Any officer seeing someone entering or leaving a vehicle with a placard in use can ask to see the registration form. Anyone not having the form in his own name gets a BIG ticket and the placard is confiscated. If the form was just left at home, the person gets the placard back and does not have to pay the fine when he goes to court.
Tom
That is eminently fair.
North Carolina has the same, and I had the registration card in the glove box. That wasn't the issue - he felt that I must have forged the medical paperwork to obtain it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Once upon a time, I drove into a handicapped slot, hung the card up, and bounced out of the car with no difficulty whatsoever. Someone looked at me like I had three heads, and made some sort of comment, so I explaied to her that I was a Registered Nurse. She looked at me like I had four heads, but that was her problem.
A few minutes later, I came out of the doctor's office escorting my patient, who was severely crippled, and could not move but with obvious pain and difficulty, and had to be carefully assisted into the vehicle.
I looked back at this lady again, just to see if she had taken a count on how many heads she had.
: ) Elias
She had one head but the skull was unoccupied.
There is nothing wrong with a cop being suspicious. How does he know if you received it by fraudulant means or not without starting a conversation. Years ago, when my mother was still alive, she had a handicap permit after she had several strokes and a heart condition. Her boyfriend was the picture of health who played racketball every day. Yet he used my mothers car and parked in the handicap spots with the permit all the time!!!
Jeff, I'm annoyed about it because he wasn't satisfied with the registration card for the permit, even though it matched my driver's license and the registration for the vehicle - he presumed that, since I didn't appear handicapped, I must have filed a fraudulent application with the DMV to have obtained the permit. And, to top it off, this incident occurred in New Jersey, while I have North Carolina plates, permit, and driver's license.
Basically, he was just being an arrogant SOB. I'm sure you have run into a few, probably even within your own precinct, over the years. I have two brothers-in-law who are retired police officers and two nephews who are currently on the force in Michigan (one a county mountie, one a state trooper); three of them are good folks but one is the epitome of bad attitude, both as an officer and as a person. I'm hopeful that his latest wife will prevail and convince him to change professions, not just because she wants him to find a safer profession, but because the citizens of their area of Michigan will benefit as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks. If you did mention this to me, I missed your message.
In any case, the point is moot. From the application form: "From whatever cause, the person is unable to move about without a walker, wheelchair, wheelchair stroller, a crutch, crutches, or a cane at all times. The word 'unable' is used in its literal sense. The fact that one of these mechanical aids facilitates movements is not sufficient." Even when the pain sets in, I don't use a walker, wheelchair, wheelchair stroller, a crutch, crutches, or a cane. I wouldn't qualify even the pain were persistent.
Interesting that they are that restrictive. I'm like you... at one time I used crutches whenever the pain got bad, but now I've got other problems that preclude the use of crutches, so when the pain gets bad I usually just don't go.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In my case, when the pain gets bad, I've usually already gone and I have to limp my way back home. I once deliberately bypassed my station and backtracked by bus to shorten my walk by two blocks.
>>> From the application form <<<
I read the application form you posted and it is quite a bit tougher than what is in effect here in California. Here if you qualify for an automobile handicapped placard, you automatically qualify for reduced rates on public transportation. In addition to the things stated in the MTA application, anything that reduces one's ability to walk, such as severe arthritis, heart disease, or serious respiratory disease (certified by a doctor) qualifies a person for a handicapped placard.
One could argue from a philosophical point of view that there is really no reason to provide the disabled with a reduced fare on public transit, since unlike the vehicle placard which may reduce the need for walking, a reduced fare does not in itself assist the handicapped person to get on or off a public transit vehicle, and the public transit vehicle does not make any special stops to reduce walking. The reduced fare for the handicapped is really left from the days that stereotyped all disabled persons as being unfit to work and therefore poor due to no fault of their own and thus worthy of charity.
Tom
<<<"One could argue from a philosophical point of view that there is really no reason to provide the disabled with a reduced fare on public transit, since unlike the vehicle placard which may reduce the need for walking, a reduced fare does not in itself assist the handicapped person to get on or off a public transit vehicle, and the public transit vehicle does not make any special stops to reduce walking. The reduced fare for the handicapped is really left from the days that stereotyped all disabled persons as being unfit to work and therefore poor due to no fault of their own and thus worthy of charity.">>>
Thanks, Tom. I was trying to make this (as well as other points)argument in my original post.
Handicapped fares on public transit strike mas yet another entitlement. Many, many handicapped/disabled people hold regular jobs. Let 'em pay the full fare.
I mean, if some intermitent discomfort qualifes for a reduced fare, what about diabetes? Asthma? HIV? Hypertension? (I got that one), Thyroid trouble? Chronic Fatigue? Ringworm? Jock itch?
Where does it stop?
MTA is right to be strict about this.
Unless you REALLY can't work (due to illnes or extreme age), PAY THE FARE.
>>> Many, many handicapped/disabled people hold regular jobs. Let 'em pay the full fare. <<<
Although it is true that many handicapped people hold regular jobs, it is probably also true that if you compared the population eligible for disabled fares to the general population, you would find a lower average income. The same with the elderly who are eligible for discounts. There are some well to do elderly people also. I do not think that the TA wants to get into means testing for the discounted fares though. After all, someone like Stevie Wonder is not likely to be using the subway at full or discounted price, so the number of disabled persons who would want to use the public transportation system but earn a median wage or higher may be too small to make it worthwhile to use any means test.
And the disabled may have to use more public transit than the able bodied. If every step is painful, a person will not walk two blocks, but take a bus for one or two stops. A few weeks ago I posted to Bus Talk about a single day when I rode sixteen buses in order to transact business in Los Angeles. More than half of them were short trips (less than five blocks) that I would have walked when I was in better health.
>>> I mean, if some intermitent discomfort qualifes for a reduced fare, what about diabetes? Asthma? HIV? Hypertension? (I got that one), Thyroid trouble? Chronic Fatigue? Ringworm? Jock itch? <<<
What disabilities deserve a reduced fare is a different question than whether there should be any reduced fares at all. The criteria for New York's reduced fare seems quite strict (intermittent discomfort doesn't make it). It all depends on the integrity of the doctors certifying the disability though. There was quite a scandal here when it was found that many of the UCLA varsity football players obtained and were using handicapped placards to get preferred parking on campus.
Tom
Work has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you use the subway only for long rides to and from work, but some of us travel shorter distances on occasion. I've paid many a fare for what would be an easy walk if not for the condition of my knee.
Here's another way of looking at it: The average ride of the disabled is shorter than the average ride of the population as a whole (because the population as a whole walks for short trips while the disabled doesn't). The disabled use less of the system per ride, so they should pay less per ride.
(Notice that if the subway charged fares by distance, the point would be moot.)
General discomfort should not qualify. Difficulty in walking should be the only criterion.
I wouldn't object if the discount were only available off-peak (which is all federal law requires).
Guessing that you commute regularily, why not get a monthly unlimited pass?
Arti
Good guess, but it doesn't hold. On average, a $15 MetroCard lasts me 3-4 weeks, with maybe one or two Fun Passes thrown in.
The instant I find an excuse to commute by train (or bus) five days a week, my credit card will see a $63 charge.
Star-Ledger article by Joe Malinconico, staff transit reporter, echoes what Subwaybuff told us at the outset, that discontinuance of discount fares results in an 89 percent fare increase for some riders, while the increase is described by NJT as being 10 percent.
Fare increases for NJT riders are LONG overdue. But, going this route is not a good thing.
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, so fares haven't increased in 10 years, but that does not mean they are LONG overdue. NJ Transit has the second or third highest fare structure in the country already.
I buy a monthly from Jersey Avenue to NY Penn which costs $217. So if it increases to $239, big deal. I would love to see less crowded trains, a better on-time performance, and professional crews, but we know that is not going to happen. 10% is not going to get me in my car or on a Suburban Bus to Port Authority.
It's not the riders who buy the monthly pass that will be burdened, but the people who purchased the Round-Trip Excursion tickets during off-peak times. That is resulting in an 89% increase for some. Also, the fare from Newark Penn to NY Penn is going from $2.50 to $3.30 to match the fare from Newark Broad St. to NY Penn.
Gee, what does the fare to Newark Airport increase to? As if it isn't high enough as it is.
It is all political. Jeffrey Warsh is in his position because of politics, and they are getting DeFrancesco to sign off on the deal before he leaves office. And does McGreevey say anything? Nope. He is on the sidelines just like the politician he is.
It gets worse in the fine print. Annual fare hikes will be set by an inflation rate - "A Zone of Freedom Rate" set by DOT - which is collusion. Also, subsequent fare hikes other than those to oneway fares will not require hearings. They will be basically an unregulated public utility with monopolistic pricing. This is also the state with the 4th lowest gas tax in the country at 10.5 cents. Rail fares are slightly behind ConnDOT's now (with a measly 43% farebox recovery) will catapult to be far ahead of them. I smell corruption.
New Jersey Politics = Corruption.
I thought they left the Newark Airport fare alone, as it was already pegged as a premium fare. Don't quote me on it, though.
Is this the only way NJT has to raise more money for capital projects, and pay off its revenue?
I really despise the elimination of discount fares.
How much are monthly and weekly tickets affected by?
I believe that in the ultimate agreement, the round trip excursion discounts were retained. Monthly/weekly discounts were never on the table.
I doubt NJT ever really thought they'd eliminate the RTX's or reduce the discount for the handicapped. But when you're negotiating a fare increase, throwing things like that out there to keep the focus off of the real prize seem to work everytime.
CG
Fares do not pay for capital projects.
Am I correct in assuming that since a Sunday schedule is in effect today, the R-143s will be adhering to the Sunday departure times from Rockaway Parkway?
You are correct.
Peace,
ANDEE
6736-40 and 6786-90 are in service as of yesterday 12/31/01.
A side note - The Artwork has changed. Cars 6536-40 have received images of a whale. Someone read Moby Dick?
It would also appear that additional cars are receiveing the frames for holding those pieces of artwork.
-Stef
Stef: Isn't Moby Dick buried in Woodlawn Cemetary?.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have no clue. Anyone here know?
-Stef
This posting is just a collection of some general thoughts regarding equiptment acquisitions by Transit Museums.(NOTE I did not say trolley museums) Trolley museums sprang up after World War II although at least one, Seashore, started before that. The war provided a watershed of sorts for streetcars but once it was over bustitutions resumed in earnest. Concerned railfans wanting to preserve parts of our heritage began trolley museums in order to preserve some of these cars. Unfortunately these early volunterrs were confronted by "Hobson's Choice." Acquire the car even though you have no place to store it,let alone run it or let it be scrapped and gone forever. Some of the more forsighted museums like Branford also began acquiring rapid transit cars even though in those early days "subway fans" were looked upon with dismay by many of the "trolley fans."
It was also necessary if not essential to provide some kind of operating service for the general public to attract non-railfans and generate revenue. Since virtually all labor was volunteer, construction and restoration work proceeded slowly and many of the cars deteriorated past the point of no return. Branford has made tremendous efforts to build car barns and get as much of the equiptment as possible under cover. If you have ever been there for the "Autumn in New York" or "Trolley Parade" events you would be amazed at the amount of operating equiptment,both trolley and rapid transit.
I have been to a number of museums which are so clogged with deteriorating cars that its almost impossible to view the collection. Some of them have acquired raipd transit cars even though they are totally out of place with the museum's goal and the museum has no practical way to operate these cars.
The Batimore Trolley Museum is an excellent example of a focused collections. All of there streetcars ran at one time or another on the streets of Baltimore.
The collection at Branford is much more extensive and comprehensive covering horsecars to modern subway cars. However the use of rapid transit cars imposes some restirctions on there operation. They arrive and depart from a high level platform in the yard area. I believe that due to weight resrictions they cannot operate over the bridge to Sprague Station but even if they could there are no facilties for high level loadings there. Also although many trolley cars could mu they usually ran as solitary beasts. Subway and El cars are far more gregarious preferring the company of their fellows. So its desirable to run them in mu when pratical. Two years ago during the "Autumn in New York" event Branford ran a three car train of an IRT Deckroof Hi-VM,an IND R-9, and an IRT Lo-VM. The first time that a three car train had run in the museum's history.
All three of thses cars could run by themselves though which make the married pair cars such as the M-1s less than practical since you must have both cars to run. Also the railroad mu's might be just a little too big. A pair of M-1's measures about 170 feet and both cars are twins of the other. As a fellow once observed at a topless bar."When you've seen one, you've seen them both."
I really don't know where you could preserve railroad size electric mu's. Possibly at one of the big "railroad museums."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
Do you suppose that you could store one in your backyard and I would store the other one? My lot is 100' wide!
I guess that it would be up to us to maintain them though, wouldn't it?
How can I store one?
Karl: Maybe we could start a "Save the M-1s Foundation" and print pictures on the side of milk cartons asking for donations.
Larry,RedbirdR33
We'd need a better advertising means down here. Milk cartons are all but extinct in this area. Everything seems to have been converted to plastic bottles.
How about a blurb on income tax forms specifying a $1.00 of the refund to be earmarked for the "G & B Save the M-1s Foundation".
I'll volunteer to act as Treasurer!
Karl: That sounds like a good idea. The only problem I foresee is trying to operate the pair. We would have to get a 300 mile long extension cord to connect the two cars. Maybe we could arrange some kind of house-to-house connection using the homes of all the sub-talkers along the route.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS Glad to hear that you received Volume 3. The first volume deals with the IRT and is in a larger format. I believe that they used an offset printing process but I'm not sure.
I guess that long extension cord is not too practical.
Would you consider just having a static display?
PS Are you saying that Part I is 8 1/2 X 11? I've never even seen it so it could be "big little book" size, and I wouldn't know!
Karl: Part 1 of the Cunningham History measures about 8 1/2 x 11 inches. There are 104 pages.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So it is larger and apparently has more info in it than the other two, since there are more pages. Does it also have that troublesome "perfect" binding?
You have really whet my appetite to get that last book now. I will really have to be watching for it in 2002!
Karl: The binding isn't so good but then my copy is 26 years old and has seen some use. If you can get a used copy in otherwise good condition I would say $20-$30 would be fair. If it is in mint condition then about $45-50 would not be unreasonable.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, Thanks for the advice! I'll certainly be hunting for it.
Karl/Larry,
Your idea has just a little bit of merit, i.e. Branford was started in the 40s by a small group of guys who bought a 1 1/2 of track and one car. If you can find a group of like minded friends that would be a start.
Mr rt__:^)
Larry, nice post.
All I can say is that a BIG museum facility like ILM (Illionis Railway Museum) or perhaps Danbury, could handle something the size of an M-1 set. Branford couldn't really even handle a married set of B-Division equipment w/o it sitting unprotected in the elements.
The MP-54 at Seashore that I mentioned in a previous post also sits outside, a similar victim to space limitations.
It is very difficult to find room for one or two 75 foot (or more) cars, when a museum already has dozens of smaller -- yet rarer -- equipment in its collection. It's a tough choice in some cases, but realistically most museums would want to preserve the older (and smaller) cars since they have more history attached to them than the newer and larger stainless steel equipment.
BMTman
<< All I can say is that a BIG museum facility like ILM (Illionis Railway Museum)>>
IRM, not ILM. I'd love to see an M-1 set there but it's highly unlikely, since the vast majority of equipment types at the IRM ran in the Chicago area and the M-1s certainly did not. There is some equipment there that did not run in Chicago (they have a SEPTA Brill rapid-transit car, a PC (nee NYC) S Motor, and a PRR GG1) but this equipment is in the minority.
---Dave S.
A pair of M-1's would burn down the substations. I'd rather see Shoreline aquire the forlorn MP54 at Seashore or the sole surviving arch-roof one that became a restaurant in Watermill.
What do you mean by "burn down the substations".
The M-1s are likely to consume more power than a trolley museum's substation can provide.
David
We already have to be careful when we operate the subway cars at Branford for this reason.
Mr rt__:^)
IRM seems like the only place with enough space
But IRM has factions opposed to non-midwest equipment. I'm still waiting to see if they are really going to acquire the R26 pair.
I am a volunteer in the Electric Car Department at IRM, and I find this to be a very interesting discussion.
First of all, IRM is planning to acquire a pair of Redbirds. While it is true that there are factions opposed to doing this, and to acquiring more non-Midwest traction equipment, I would not overstate this. As a combination traction/steam-road museum, there are factions "opposed" to any sort of traction at IRM! The important thing is that IRM will acquire the Redbirds, and will continue to acquire, restore and operate electric equipment.
One thing that has been totally ignored in this discussion is that cars like the M-1's are almost completely useless to modern museum operations. While it is highly desirable to save an example of each generation of car, if not every type of car, the usefulness of the equipment must become a factor in acquisition of more than one of something. Modern subway equipment is, in some way, useless for revenue-producing operation at museums because of one factor: its inability to be operated via overhead wire. All operating traction museums use overhead wire, and the prohibitive costs of operating - and insuring - third rail make installation of such an impossible proposition.
Most museums that own subway equipment have bypassed this problem by mounting unprototypical trolley poles on cars that never had them (Branford, Seashore, and IRM are all examples of this). Some of the more modern subway equipment, though, is constructed in a way that makes this impossible. I'm not sure exactly how M-1's are built, but if the roofs are stainless steel it's a safe bet that mounting trolley poles on them would be a project that would be irreversibly damaging to the historical fabric of the car. Most traction museums worth their salt will pause, if not balk, at the prospect of doing such damage to their equipment.
The reason that IRM has half a dozen North Shore interurban cars, and that Seashore has half a dozen Boston semiconvertibles, is because these cars make good "workhorses" that can be used to carry people year after year. Subway cars generally cannot do this, and as such traction museums often acquire the minimum number of them required to give an overview of the evolution of the equipment.
Is there a point to this rant? Yes. Well, I hope so! I would be surprised if any of the traditional traction museums were to save a pair of M-1's when they are retired. I think that we will be lucky if even one is saved in a museum, and I doubt that once they leave NYCTA rails they will ever move under their own power again. The only solution I can even hypothetically think of is for an organization like the New York Transit Museum to somehow expand its role, put more cars on display, and perhaps even begin to operate cars for museum-goers. This may be impossible for even the most intrepid and imaginative supporters of NYTM to accomplish, but we can hope that it will happen.
Thank you for a very illuminating post.
I wonder if a static display would work somewhere in the NY area, or perhaps in Philadelphia, where Budd was headquartered...
If a pair of LIRR M-1s are to be preserved at a museum, then the one that comes to mind is the Railroad Museum of LI. Why ? first it's in Long Island. Second, the RRMLI may have some pull with the MTA or LIRR to donate a pair when time comes for candidates from the fleet to be retired. The first M-1s from 1968 #9001-9002 would be ideal, considering they aren't involved in a wreck by then.
The idea of a pair of M-1s being preserved at Branford is laughable at best. Attend their next board meeting and suggest that become embarassed. When the R-9 when up there in the 70s, I heard there was some balking and I assume the same for the R-17 too.
To those on this board who refuse to accept reality who feel it's some other museum's responsibility to purchase and transport retired equipment, let them dig deep in their pockets and come with the big bucks needed for acquizition and transport of these railcars. This does run into the thousands mind you.
A pair of M-1s at Branford ? I Don't think so. I'd rather see the Brooklyn "Peter Witt" streetcar restored then see another Redbird at Branford. One Redbird representing SMEE equipment is good enough. Focus on long idle equipment needing to be restored rather than dream about preserving this car or that car.
To Frank Hicks of IRM,
In your quest to acquire a pair of R-26 Redbirds, I certainly wish you luck. There is some ongoing thing here that retired equipment with asbestos has to be abated. Removal of asbestos would probably destroy the car. The Redbirds being sunk off Delaware? Yes they have asbestos in them, But being wet, the asbestos is not a threat. Only when it's dry and airborn. I was told that of all the Redbirds, the R-26s are LOADED with asbestos. Once again, good luck sir!
Bill "Newkirk"
[A pair of M-1s at Branford ? I Don't think so. I'd rather see the Brooklyn "Peter Witt" streetcar restored ...]
Bill you make a good point. That Brooklyn Peter Witt would fit right in with regular ops at Branford, as would PCC #27 that was just acquired. This subway railfan thinks there's also a place for a few elevated/subway cars, but an M-1/M-2 or RDC now I'll have to agree with you.
Mr rt__:^)
Thurston: Another point against the M-1's is that always were maintenance-intensive. I remember working as the am tower director at HM on the Hudson Line and having five trains in timetable order unable to move because of one problem or another. Metro-North has done a great job keeping them going but are really need to be pampered.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, that's another thing that brings to mind a yellow-colored fruit when discussing the M-1's.
They were loaded with problems from day one, but the LIRR had a VERY old fleet of MP-54s, and were itching to replace them. And don't forget the 'burb commuters were eager for the new, shiny cars so they could feel like they were really getting more bang for their buck.
Anyhow, aside from some minor historical significance, I doubt many people will 'shed a tear' for the retirement of the M-1s.
BMTman
I'd PAY to go to a museum that had some M-1's as long as they had Bill Ronan tied to the nose. :)
Doug: Your quite right. They do not have comfortable seating. Those subway type doors admit cold air right into the cars and the lavatories stink no matter how much we clean them.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Well, my grandson thought the triple was a good place to recline while doing his homework on the way in to see the Miracle at 34th Street (at Macy's) last month ... plus they do have a railfan window & go 60 to 70 MPH ... can't do that in a subway anymore :-(
They have grown on me a little due to going back and forth for 11 1/2 years in them. Same thing has happened to me & trolleys ... did about 90 hours operating them last year.
Mr rt
Mr. T.: Welcome back from your holiday vacation!
I'd have to agree that probably the BEST feature of the M-1's was their railfan windows. I must admit I got some GREAT shots of LIRR trackage/equipment from the front on more than a few occassions.
(So I did find one positive note to say about the cars after all.) ;-D
BMTman
You DO realize though that you've just put Unca Salaam onto a BRAND NEW mission ... and in TD's neck of the woods too. :)
What's interesting in this M-1 discussion is that one other "trolley musuem" (Pennsylvania Trolley Musuem, aka Arden) has added a Budd "Almond Joy" car (one of the single units) to their collection.
It now sits on a display track, power to the motors is disconnected, but the car is lighted and the aux stuff works. It will never be operational, even though it could run on their Pittsburgh tracks.
Why?
1. PTM will not put trolley poles on it.
2. The car draws more power than their substation can produce.
3. They got it because it ran in Pensylvania.
Wnat if they tried to run the "Almond Joy" with only 2 of the 4 tractions motors. Would they have the amperage then ?
AFAIK they have 300 volt series paired motors just like SMEE
cars. Disconnecting one motor group would actually _increase_
the current. It would be possible to adjust the acceleration
rates to reduce current consumption, but the car would be an
absolute dog.
"1. PTM will not put trolley poles on it."
This does create a problem with the unusual "humps" on the "almond joy" roof.
Bill "Newkirk"
The only solution I can even hypothetically think of is for an organization like the New York Transit Museum to somehow expand its role, put more cars on display, and perhaps even begin to operate cars for museum-goers
Just curious, the biggest subway cars are, I think 75 feet. How long are the M1's, and would they fit in any of the subway tunnels. They must be wider also, I assume.
M-1s are 85 feet long. I'm not sure about the width, though I think they're a bit wider than the 10 feet of BMT-IND subway cars. It would be a tight fit, at best, in subway tunnels.
David
If they are to survive anywhere after their LIRR careers, it will have to be SIR.
Well, it seems from all the posts that stainless steel cars could be practically preserved only as static displays.
That's OK with me.
However, I was wondering- is it a fact that the M-1s are on the way out as a car class? Or have jsut a few dud units been retired?
The M-1s should be with us for some time to come. The next class of emu to be retired will be the ex-New York Central 1100 Series or ACMU's. They will go out probably sometime this or next year when the M-7s arrive.
Larry,RedbirdR33
1100 series? In service with LIRR? What do they look like?
Nope, none at LIRR. They look a bit more boxy in the front then the Ms.
Mr rt__:^)
Ron: Maybe I should clarify that post. The LIRR has M-1's and M-3's.
MNRR has M-1a's and M-3a's as well as M-2's,M-4's and M-6's. MNRR also has the 1100 series mu built for the NYC which they call ACMU's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks. I don't think I've ever seen one. I'll check the pictures of rolling stock on this site...
Well, I looked. I didn't realize those weren't pulled coaches.
Thanks to the help of SubTalker Phil Hom we were able to purchase a copy of the C & D Part III The Independent System and City Ownership.
My wife gave it to me for Christmas, and I just finished my second reading of it. It really is a great book for history, facts and figures about the IND.
Several years ago, another SubTalker, Larry RedbirdR33, located a Part II for me Rapid Transit in Brooklyn. I must say that this one was even better, but perhaps it was because my first interest was always the BMT.
I am only missing Part I now The Manhattan Els and the IRT.
I sure would appreciate it if any SubTalker knows of a copy for sale at a fair price, that they would contact me.
Thanks A Lot!
How do I get to Harriman Station on the Port Jervis line? I understand that I have to get to Hoboken Terminal via PATH, but what do I do from Hoboken? I'm confused because that line seems to be split up. The southern half is greyed out (NJ Transit), while the upper half is considered to be Metro-North. Are there 2 seperate systems that run that track? Would they use NJ Transit equipment or MTA Metro-North equipment?
ah the Balkanization of service! The tracks are NJT to the State Line so the equipment is a mix of NY owned and regular NJT cars/engines all built to NJT specs.
At Hoboken, just look or ask for the train to Port Jervis.
Be careful! Train # 53, the 1:20 pm from Hoboken on weekdays, only goes as far as Middletown, N.Y. This train makes Harriman, but does not go as far as Port Jervis. You wouldn't want "Go N Train" to wait an extra few hours at Hoboken because he passed up a train he could have taken!
Thanks for the lookout Fishbowl :-)
It's a thru NJT train. The MTA portion is transparent to the passenger except a seperate ticket coupon is dispnsed from Suffern-North. Either authority's equipment and engines is fair game and may be mixed.
So what you're saying is you would need to get off at Suffern to buy a new ticket to continue the trip? This is almost as confusing as how to get to Lynbrook on the LIRR. From Jamaica, there's the Far Rockaway branch which turns off at Valley Stream. Then the Long Beach and Babylon branch seems to come out of nowhere at Lynbrook. =O
No, at one time when you would buy a ticket from the NJT vending machines for Newark-Port Jervis (for example) you would get one that read Newark-Suffern and another that read Suffern-Port Jervis. I don't believe that's the case any longer though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NJT operates the service, then then bill MNRR for the portion of service that occurs in New York State. The cars are all common pooled, so you will find MNRR equipment on any of the north side NJT service, although NJT tries to keep them on the Port Jervis Line. This does not always happen.
NJT operates the service, then then bill MNRR for the portion of service that occurs in New York State.
Where does MNRR get profits to pay NJT. If people buy tickets in Hoboken, wouldn't they be paying NJT? Then NJT collects money from MNRR?
This is MNRR "West of the Hudson" service operated by NJT. Do you think the line turns a profit?? hehe.... ANY LINE Turns a profit?
MNRR (in truth the MTA) pays NJT to run the service and loans some of equipment as well.
I don't know how they do the accounting with the tickets. The Metro-North cars are on a 90 day major cleaning cycle, while NJT's is 120-day, so there is some attempt to segregate the cars with the incompatible intervals.
The track Suffern and north is NS, the crews are NJT, the signs are MTA. Four east-of-Hudson blue sripe cars are now in the pool.
The equipment pool is used on any Hoboken based train not using Waterfront Connection. Have been many times on board MTA car while traveling from Newark to Summit.
Now on eBay:
Item 1057189372 - Huge 46 by 58 inch 1969 Subway Map
Item 1057184660 - PATH Hudson Tubes Letter re World Trade Center construction
Item 1057182122 - BMT Surface Division Money Bag
Caught the Port Auth film about the building of the WTC on CNN the other day, was very nice.
Mr rt__:^)
There was some police activity today at Continental. It happened aboard a northbound F train(R-32). The F sat on the express track while an E train just behind crawled into the station so that it's front doors would be on the platform. T/O opened the crew door and passengers walked through the train (also R-32) to the front car and onto the platform at Contintental. They were able to connect with n/b E and F trains which were rerouted to the local track until the police investigation was taken care of.
Did they lead the passengers out of the E train or had them walk into the F train and exit?
They lead them right onto the station platform.
Continental is a long station. There is room for a 10 car R-32, and still space for another train to pull into the station right behind it and get at least 1/2 a car in. And that's just what happened. Once the second train got his front car into the station, he opened the crew door, and people walked through the train, and right onto the station platform.
Thank you.
#93 BOS-PHL 01/10/02 THU 9.45am (arr. 3.27pm) fare $71.00
#43 PHL-CLE 01/11/02 FRI 6.35am (arr. 6.02pm) fare $11.70
#30 CLE-WAS 01/12/02 SAT 2.12am (arr. 1.23pm) fare $45.20
Pick up and drop off anywhere along the route is OK. No alternative times available (because I have to be in Washington for Jan. 12.) Suitable for students on winter vacation, or anyone who happens to have the time off.
Lexcie
Two footnotes:
(1) Have to book by Jan 3, 2001.
(2) #93 could be #95 the inland route train, if anyone wants to board on the inland route.
Lexcie
Both #93 and #95 operate via the shore line, not the inland route.
#145 operates via the inland route.
Michael
2001 was good for me for railfanning. Here's what I rode this year:
Rode for the first time:
Miami Metromover
Seattle Monorail and Heritage Tolley
Sao Paulo Metro
Chicago L
London Underground and Docklands light rail
Rode again:
Sao Paulo Metro (later in the year)
NYC subway
Atlanta MARTA (duh)
Today was Muslims Rajatwunablaan, which is some kind of festival where people have to buy lots of stuff. I was at Star Market today and lots of Muslim people lined up to buy Oranges -- forming an Orange Line -- apparently you needed lots of oranges to please the Rajatwunablaan Gods, or something. I wasn't entire sure, the guy I spoke to didn't speak English very well. He just kept saying "Rajatwunablaan, rajatwunablaan," and pointing at the sky. I've never seen so many people forming a line for oranges in my life. Both Star Markets I went to was out of Oranges by 3pm.
I'm wishing everyone on Sub Talk a happy and healthy 2002. Let us all say good-bye and good riddance to 2001 since it is now history. I'm not sorry to see 2001 go. I'm glad to see that 2002 is here. Once again I wash you all on Sub Talk a happy and healthy New Year.
#3 West End Jeff
Where was Hudson Terminal in relationship to the current WTC PATH station? What streets was it under?
Check out the Path / Hudson & Manhattan Railroad section of this website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looks like it was immediately west of Church St., underneath what was (prior to 9/11) a private "street" cordoned off for security reasons.
The shell of what was Hudson Terminal became a loading dock area under the plaza between 4 and 5 WTC, west of Church St. This was once under the old Hudson Terminal buildings. Its depth in PATH days was 35 feet. Don't know if this was changed in its latter-day re-incarnation.
To connect from the inbound tube to the rebuilt (actually new) station, it sounds like there will be a new reverse curve directly under the former site of 4 WTC. The old shell as was would be too small for contemporary operations.
With any luck, service will be restored in three phases: 2003 to Exchange Place; 2004 to (1971) WTC which will get temporary access; 2005 to Church Street. An extensive system of walkalators will connect from Church St. to neighboring subway lines and the WFC.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
A question for SubTalk...
What is the normal operating speed of a train that is pulling into a station? Frank from San Francisco mentioned BART trains move at up to 36 miles per hour within stations, using less speed under adverse weather or equipment conditions. What's the norm with other systems?
Also, does anyone know the speeds for heavy-rail passenger lines? How fast do commuter and Amtrak trains approach station platforms?
Thanks in advance,
Brandon
I'm TA...my new tech work has R142s limited now to about 40 mph max with acceleration cut to prevent jostling of passengers. So a T/O could crank it if speed controls didn't put up barriers to enter...but the train must stop. Old trainsets can go faster but at what cost? CI Peter
Brandon it depends on track condition, speed restrictions and the area they run in. normally in the corridor between New Haven and New York I've seen AEM 7's with Amcans go through Fairfield, CT approximately 110mph.In Boston T Commuter rail run no faster than 75mph because of the speed governers they have on the engines.
How come on holidays MBTA cars are not allowed south of New Haven even though MARC cars from DC can go to Boston ?
What on earth are you talking about? Unless there's some very strange moves I'm not aware of, MBTA cars don't go south of Providence, and MARC cars don't go north of Baltimore. MBTA and MARC territories are a hell of a long ways apart.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Actually, I HAVE seen MARC trains on the Hell Gate Bridge in Queens. I dont know if they were in revenue service, but I do recall it was a strange sight!!! Tony
MARC, SEPTA and NJT all lease equipment to Amtrak during the Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Year holidays. It is slightly wierd to see MARC in Penn or 30th Street, complete with MARC motor on the point.
I've seen SEPTA motors with MARC cars and NJT motors on Metroliners, ATK motors on everybody's cars and MARC motors with Amtrak "kiddie kars". Holidays are fun times for railfans in the NE corridor.
Wow, I had no idea. I wonder who's job it is to sort it all out after the holidays and give the rolling stock back to their respective owners. Or do they just give it back to whichever commuter railroad's territory they happen to be in at the end of the day, and leave it up to each of them to give the cars a new paint scheme and call it even? :-)
Are the MARC and MBTA bi-levels involved in this operation, or will they not fit into NYC Penn Station?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Also the new HHP-8's for MARC are testing on the Norheast Corr. so you can see them pulling Slamtrak or MARC stuff.
The MARC ones might, as they are "low level" bi-levels due to trolley clearances in the Baltimore Tunnels.
The MARC bi-levels are similiar in height configuration to the new bi-level LIRR diesel-electric cars.
"This is a...95th Street bound "R" train...the next stop is...86th Street..." "Stand clear of the closing doors, please." *ding-dong**click*
Stuart, RLine86Man
And ths is an extension of Silverliner "advance" Philly NY sections eun by PRR/PC in the 60's. One of my few cab rides occured on Xmas 67 coming back to NY on a string of Silverliners with a well known engineer who sported dress clothing and a bowler hat rather than bibs.
Interestingly, the MU's were better at the curves and beat the schedulecoming into Penn ten + minutes early.
maybe he came from sunnyside. There have been MARC trains in sunnyside before.
"Stange moves" is Thanksgiving weekend and some other periods when Amtrak leases MARC, MBTA, NJT, and SEPTA cars. MARC cars go to Boston, SEPTA cars see NY, MBTA cars see New Haven, and MBTA cars see New Haven.
...even though MARC cars from DC can go to Boston?
Amtrak leases cars from MARC to cover the holiday rush. I don't believe they lease any from the MBTA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They can also go a few mph faster in at least one place, Stevie. On the Providence line, MBTA commuter rail trains are allowed MAS of 80 mph (the inbound railfan window allows a good view of the speedometer :-). The 7:10am inbound express from Providence to South Station is especially good for that, as it is express all the way from Mansfield to Back Bay... and runs at 80 mph for most of the run (slowing to 60 mph passing Canton Junction).
Acela Express trains in this area pass local MBTA stations such as Mansfield and Attleboro at 150 mph. Quite a sight when you're on the platform just a few feet away!
Acela Express trains in this area pass local MBTA stations such as Mansfield and Attleboro at 150 mph.
YIKES!! Just out of curiousity, I wonder what sort of a blast of wind that must produce. Either way, it must be quite a spectacle... One more reason I need to get back to Boston for a visit someday.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Cool!
Todd that is on the south side but, my apoligies i was refering to the north side. stevie
Wow... I bet that must be quite a rush to stand on the platform when a train flies by at 150 mph! Do they make a warning announcement before the train goes through?
Also, do you know if trains have a maximum speed permitted through a station if they are making a stop? Or is it at the engineer's discretion to go as slow or fast as safety permits (keeping within track speed limits, of course)?
In other words, if an engineer could safely do it, is it legal to approach a station at, say, 50 miles per hour and come to a screeching halt for the station stop? What's the normal speed a stopping train will approach a station at?
Thanks for the interesting answers so far everyone!
The station to which I referred, Mansfield on the MBTA Providence commuter rail line (shares track with Amtrak), has a platform that in places is only three feet wide. When Acela Express approaches, you'd better move away and turn so your back is to the tracks!
Theoretically, the audible/visible warning system must be operating (LED crawl signs say "Train Approaching! Stand Back Behind Yellow Line," and a recording drones, "Train Apporaching! Please stand behind the yellow line!). Prior to this system, Mansfield had a crossing gong that rang continuously, and it was much louder and more effective, in my opinion. At any rate, I was led to believe that in order for Acela Express trains to pass through stations at MAS 150, this system had to be working. This morning waiting for the 7:40 inbound express at Mansfield, the system was NOT working, and the AE blew through at 150. Oh, well, when the first 12-9 occurs....
I'm suprised that the engineer of the AE train doesn't blow the horn before passing through a station that fast. I thought they were required to do that anyway?
Sorry, forgot to mention that. There's a horn signal of two short blasts a few seconds before entering the station. But it's not very loud, especially if the wind is blowing the wrong way, and you have a hood up on a cold day!
Thats what I love about the NEC. High speed trains skip through crowed stations at full speed. I like to spot at Princeton Junction on NJT. Amtrak would sometimes come through the station on the local tracks doing 110+. On the express,its fun to but the extra 12-15 feet takes some of the excitment away.
127 mph right past the platform at Newark, Delaware. Hold on tight to the railing!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seems pretty fast. I was at Irvington photographing trains on 12/31 and an Empire Service just sped through and I didn't even hear the horn. It was going so fast, my camera wouldn't even take a picture.
Does anyone know?
Thanks,
Subway grrl
He took the his (L)imo most likely.
It looked like he was getting out of the Brooklyn Bridge Lex IRT station in the clip shown on the news.
A Republican riding the subway. A good start. In fact, Mayor Bloomberg should go out of his way to portray the New York Subway as a major feature of New York City. After all, it is the one thing that brings us all together no matter where we live now. No doubt I am prejudiced, but of the twelve subway systems I have had the pleasure to traverse New York's is far and away the most exciting and the best. But that is just my opinion. I'd welcome yours.
But did he really ride the subway or did he walk in on entrance to the station and out the other in front of the cameras. Unless there is footage of him actually riding the train, this was probably just a phony stunt. I expect more of them over the next 4 years. I don't like Bloomberg, I only voted for him becuase I liked Green even less.
Definitely, I hope Bloomberg makes a big thing about the subway. Hopefully then, at some point we'll get a second ave subway, or better yet, some sort of rail link from SI to Manhattan (my cause celebre of late)! I don't think we can expect it anytime soon with the fiscal troubles we now have, though.
Bloomberg is a sack of shit in a cheap suit who isnt worthy of being mayor of Mianus, Connecticut, let alone the best city in the world. He isnt even good enough to ride the subway. Brace yourselves for 4 long years of horrible city management. It will be like Dinkins all over again.
Isn't Mianus an unincorporated village (which in NY would be a "hamlet"), ie no mayor?
Eh. Whatver.
:-) Andrew
Isn't Mianus an unincorporated village (which in NY would be a "hamlet"), ie no mayor?
Not even that much. It's basically just a neighborhood with no legal status whatsoever.
Isn't Mianus the place where, oh, 15 years ago or so a bridge carrying I-95 collapsed, and screwed up traffic royally?
sn't Mianus the place where, oh, 15 years ago or so a bridge carrying I-95 collapsed, and screwed up traffic royally?
It was in Riverside or Cos Cob, Town of Greenwich, over the Mianus River, on I-95 (Connecticut Tpke, but noone calls it that anymore.) Some people were also killed.
---Andrew
Dinkins didn't do anything right or wrong. Bloomberg will do everything thats is wrong and nothing that is right.
There are two types of mayor out there......caretaker and leader. Dinkins was a caretaker. Koch and Giuliani were leaders. Bloomberg will be the first of a different kind.....destroyer.
No - he is worse. He is a businessman.
Dinkins did a lot wrong.
We'll see how Bloomberg does. Like it or not, he's mayor.
"Bloomberg is a sack of shit in a cheap suit who isnt worthy of being mayor of Mianus, Connecticut, let alone the best city in the world. He isnt even good enough to ride the subway. Brace yourselves for 4 long years of horrible city management. It will be like Dinkins all over again."
Well..........I wonder how those New Yorkers who voted for term limits feel now.
Bill "Newkirk"
Amen! Although I no longer live in NYC, 4 more years of Guiliani would have been very appropriate right now. I can't help but think back to the early '90's (when NYC was known as 'Dinkytown') with people getting mugged on my trains, delays due to police actions, etc. Did most of my time on the M line back then. Fun and games.
You still have 'police action' holding up trains -- what's the difference there???
Maybe not as many muggings, I'd agree there.
Pretty damn good, actually. I don't expect much from old man bloomberg, but I think it's safe to say there's a good portion of the NYC population that's happy to see ghooliani go. yes, he did a nice job, but he was an arrogent SOB that did a lot of dumb things. Him and that rubber-faced girlfriend of his can go moved to nebraska for all i care.
Well..........I wonder how those New Yorkers who voted for term limits feel now.
Bill "Newkirk"
We feel very sad to see Guiliani go, but remain committed to the concept. Term limits will do more to clean the trash out of city government then in preventing good politicians from seeking more terms.
Alot of the New Yorkers who voted for term limits were Rudy backers. You reap what you sow...
Term limits are/were a dumb-ass idea. It dilutes the whole meaning behind 'voting power'.
BMTman
The 108th Mayor of NYC Mike Bloomberg rode on the IRT line to the City Hall Station which the #4, 5, 6 and the J, M, and Z also stop. On Page 4 is a picture from the NY Daily News shows him coming out of the IRT City Hall Station.
The NY Daily News on page 5 for Wednesday January 2, 2002 says he rode the #6 train to City Hall.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Bloomberg took the 6 train from the 77st station on the Lexington line ride to his inauguration. The 6 is a local; there were 13 stops made on the way to Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall.
While campaigning for the Senate Republican Rick Lazio showed his lack of subway savvy: It's midday and he's is finishing up an event at Grand Central Terminal (42st). His next campaign stop is Harlem (125st). What does this Long Island boy do? He takes a car with a driver. Hello? 3 stops on the 4 or 5 IRT express trains....
I don't understand your complaint. Bloomberg boarded at a local station. Did you expect him to walk to an express station? Transferring from local to express at 59 is pointless (it takes longer to walk downstairs than to stop at 51). Sure, he could have transferred at 42, but even if there was an express waiting, he would have saved, what, three minutes or so? And if there was no express waiting, there's a good chance he'd end up ahead on the 6. Lots of real New Yorkers -- except in Queens -- realize that the local is a perfectly good way of getting around.
Woah. The IRT City Hall station? You mean he stayed on through the loop and the C/R let him out at the old City Hall station? Very cool!
It'd be pretty tough for Mike to get out at City Hall, since both of the entrances are sealed tight.
More likely he exited at "Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall."
Wishful thinking.
If Bloomberg had wanted to ride through the loop (maybe he's a closet railfan!), would the T/O have kicked him off?
Before answering that question, recall who operated the first train from City Hall.
Well at least he will be better than Guilliani. Good riddance Rudy.
Rudy did a lot to clean up the city. You can't ask for anything more from a Republican.
Calm down! The guys not even in office one day and you're already bashing the guy in the head.
Keep in mind that the economy is heading in the toilet -- nationwide, and even if 9-11 hadn't happenned -- so if NYC has financial problems you can't lump it all on him. Be realistic...
BMTman
Put it this way: he needs to cut 4 billion dollars from a budget where the only part he has any discretionary power over adds up to a little over 5 billion. And he cannot raise taxes.
Ouch.
While I don't want to get into a political debate, I'm surprised at your negativism and outward hostility. I thought Bloomberg's inaugural speech was quite uplifting. Most of the leaders Bloomberg appointed are city government veterans and have many years of experience. If he manages the city anything like his own company that he built from the bottom up, the City will be run well in the next four years.
You can't help but understand the bitterness of our colleagues on board Subtalk. A great chance was lost to put the great Mark Green in the Mayor's office. As some of those politically astute people could have told you, Green would be the greatest thing to happen to New York since Fiorello La Guardia.
Fred,
You’re supposed to put the <sarcasm>, brackets around such opinions, so that people who didn’t follow the debates could understand!
John
I give up. Dave’s HTML sanitizer is too much! There should be {sarcasm}, {/sarcasm} with braces replaced by < and > symbols, but I couldn’t make it work!
BTW: It worked in preview!
John
Glad you have given the guy a chance. Why not wait awhile before you make a judgment. He rode the subway didn't he? What better way to ingratiate yourself with your fellow New Yorkers than to do that on your first day in command. Oh yes, I get it. You were a supporter of that shitkicking no account Mark Green. That speaks volumes.
Come on, guys!
I need to know if anyone heard or saw this info on the news. I saw
him coming out of a subway station and heard that he had ridden the
subway there, but no one mentioned which line he took. Whether you
like him or not, he's the new mayor and we need for him to be
successful. I'd like to give him one of my subway shirts so he'll
keep mass transit and the "little guys" in mind.
Subway grr.
STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Dear Andee,
THANK YOU!
Subway grrl
Who say's Bloomberg's not intellgent? He took the Lex on New Years Day to say he did it -- not during the hell of a regular rush hour. I expect that if he takes the subway at all from this point forward, it will be limo to 33rd, and the Lex from there, once enough people get off to let in the air.
According to the newspapers he took the #6.
It makles sense since he lives on 79th St on the East Side.
Thats scary.......Upper East Side republican trash with billions of dollars shared a subway car with residents of the South Bronx. Something tells me that he will elect not to do that again.
Upper East Side republican trash with billions of dollars shared a subway car with residents of the South Bronx. Something tells me that he will elect not to do that again.
Notice how many times RUDY rode the rails while Mayor, of course ....
How many times did Rudy ride the rails?
You certainly know how to be insulting, don't you?
Not everyone who rides the 6 is from the South Bronx. I happen to live in the NE Bronx and I ride the 6 daily as do lots of others from the NE Bronx as well as folks from 96th St, 86th St etc.
He does not have much choice since the 6 is the line closest to where he lives (79th St on the east side). He can walk to 86th and get the 4 or 5 if he wants to but then he is also going to see those who you deem to be unworthy.
If you decide to voice your political opinion in response to a transit question (as in the Bloomberg question), could you please at least change the title of the thread so that those of us who want to read about transit know we can just ignore the posting?
It's really frustrating trying to weed out a few grains of transit information from a large number of political postings.
Thanks!
...or if you've been here long enough,
you eventually come to recognize
which posters more often than nay
tend to stick to the topic...
Bill Newkirk... Mark S. Feinman...
Stef... EngineBrake.. to name
a select few posters of worthy reads.
Pirmann, above all :)
Train Dude and OnTheJuice aren't select enough???? Sorry, your ride in my car is two bucks a trip. CI Peter
Thus far, as far as I know, SEPTA has not settled on a paint scheme for the PCC's to be rebuilt for the Girard Ave line. One would guess that it will be the standard SEPTA livery. At the risk of 'copycatting' Muni, is it worthwhile to suggest to SEPTA that the cars be painted in the different PRT/PTC/SEPTA schemes? Here are some variations:
Blue/silver (first PRT PCC's, as seen on repainted 2054)
Green/cream with maroon belt/letterboard molding (similar to 2732)
Green/cream with maroon belt, no molding
Green/white/orange (the bus scheme - applied to 2070)
Green/cream (the 'lazy' scheme of the mid-70's)
Gold/maroon (first SEPTA scheme)
The various SEPTA trial schemes (turquoise, the 'banana' car, red/blue, etc)
Blue/orange/white ('Gulf Oil')
Original SEPTA red/blue (full panel below belt - first K car scheme)
Modified SEPTA red/blue (stripe below belt)
'2730' variation (black window area)
Current scheme
That's at least 14 schemes for a fleet that will be minimum 18 cars. Other variants could include another Red Arrow car or two and a couple of PS/Newark City Subway tributes.
Anyone on the bandwagon yet? The trick is to convince SEPTA that it's a SEPTA idea, otherwise it won't go anywhere (I'm only half kidding here!).
What about St. Louis, Kansas and Toronto, where Philadelphia's used PCCs came from?
-Robert King
Sounds good to me. Given the awful experience had with the ex-St Louis cars, however, some railfans here might not want to give St Lou any tribute. Besides, the red scheme is somewhat similar to TTC's.
While we're on the subject, we should include two of my personal favorites - the all-white 'safety' and 'Zoo' cars that ran around the system just prior to SEPTA's takeover. Those would really bring back memories.
What was that awful experience? I only knew that the St. Lous cars weren't kept around long (replaced by cars from Kansas?). Didn't San Francisco keep their former St. Louis PCCs running for quite a while?
-Robert King
The basic problem with the ex-St. Louis car was that PTC bought them "as is" from SLPS. St. Louis had the really oddball PCC control with the power pedal on the left, brake pedal on the right with the deadman in the heel of each pedal. This also has the master controller backwards from the standard position and the push rods were reversed as well.
PTC went the cheap route and equipped the cars with standard pedals, but used bell cranks so the standard pedals (power & brake, the deadman does not use a push rod) could be used. That's why the cars had a very short life in Philadelpia.
San Francisco and Shaker Heights also bought cars from St. Louis.
SF MUNI did nothing and ran the cars with the St. Louis control, along with their standard PCC's. (This resulted in the joke "in an emergency, what do you do? Simply lift feet from all pedals.") :-)
Shaker paid SLPS to equip the cars with standard controls and MU equipment and no problems with the cars.
Was there ever any documented reason to have such a bizzare control arrangement?
-Robert King
Don't know, but St. Louis Public Service had no air-electrics, and pioneered the all-electric. The claim was that having the pedals set up that way allowed faster braking. (Remember, in PCC control Brake always overrides Power) They also had a peculiar electric switch arrangement that was shown as "St. Louis Type". No one I know in the industry or in musuems seems to know exactly what it was. Like Toronto's Necessity Action electric switch system (The superior electric switch control system in MHO.) the St. Louis type was used nowhere else.
Knowing those lazy bastards, they'll paint them in the same color scheme as the buses, white with a red-to-blue stripe on top of the window line, just like some of the overhauled Kawasaki cars.
That's probably exactly what those laz... er, those fine fellows at SEPTA have in mind - which is why I think some imagination couldn't hurt.
You don't have to pay for the maintenance!
I'm 100% certain they'll be painted in one standardized scheme. BUT, if SEPTA management wants to romanticize the cars and/or Route 15, maybe they'd do them up in PTC colors, kind of the way the MBTA is repainting its Mattapan-Ashmont fleet in the Boston Elevated Railway/MTA scheme.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
In a sense you're correct (as a local taxpaying resident and SEPTA rider, I'm contributing to it, but we won't go there...). However, I think if SEPTA wants to bring some attention to the line and gain some needed friends, the 'throwback' paint schemes would be a good way to do this. Corporate support could also be sought for this, at least to help with the capital costs, and perhaps the support could be extended to maintenance costs also.
I've got a bunch of new R143 photos taken on New Year's on my website, www.nyrail.org along with some R142 delivery photos by Bernard Ente at Fresh Pond. Go to the main page and click on the link in the "updates" column.
Happy New Year!
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
How are the 143's doing on the 30 day trial? has the clock been set back at all?
I was told by a Kawasaki Emp. That the clock was reset one time and thatit should be done on 1-10-02.
Robert
Yep ... and in talking to crews on the 143's on the L, everybody seems pretty happy with it ... aside from having to shake your right hand every stop to get the blood circulating again once it's in full service. :)
The shaking of the right hand issue should not be taken lightly. I wonder about long term effects? If someone "drops the button" during the trip, it will be recorded on the evnt recorder. I fear the employee would be sent to the TA doctor and deemed unable to perform his/her duties.
Oh, how about the timers in the tunnel that have no lunar whites and you approach at 40-45 not knowing whether they will clear. When I rode for the first time on the 2nd day of service, I watched, and they had to go a bit slower, because you cannot take the chance as much now. (Approaching reds that fast is scary enough to me regardless)
That's the reason I raised the issue. I see it as a potential problem that could be addressed NOW before the rest of the fleet comes in with that configuration. I sure wouldn't want to operate it for 8 hours like that. And that's really the only thing about the 143's that I thought was less than optimum ... and yeah, got a chance to look underneath as well ... nice layout down below as well ...
Counseling about shaky hands??? Employee Assistance Program..then doom. CI Peter
Heh. That would probably be the routing ... I always had a thing about "two fisted operation" myself and thought the "slide pot" control on the 46's was unnatural - the 143 controller is nice and all and has a nice feel but I still can't get used to the idea of having a "does everything" controller all the way over on the side like that. Different strokes I s'pose ... I'd be worried about dumping myself though.
The only time I dump is when Gupta leaves the other end charged and his cousins berate me for not checking. CI Peter
Every morning I take a good d ... oh, nevermind. :)
Great photos! Thanks!
While watching the WB-11 Newscast this morning I saw an aerial shot of the Goethals Bridge and what appeared to be one of the two former Coast Guard ferryboats moored near it. It was only a quick glimpse so I may not be correct. Would any of our Staten Island sub-talkers know if this is so and which boat might it be;Lt Samuel S Coursen or Pvt Nicholas Minue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Just been trying to take Amtrak to Philadelphia without gouing through the NEC. #449 takes me from Boston to Albany, where it MISSES THE LAST EMPIRE SERVICE BY 1/2 HOUR!!! GRRRR!!!!!
Amtrak really needs to sort out their local services if they want to compete with Greyhound. They should try to get some $ from Rhode Island DOT and ConnDOT or else refuse to carry passengers between local stations in Conn and RI.
Why would you want to go from Boston to Philadelphia via Albany? What do you have against the Northeast Corridor?
I agree with this question
I agree with your answer
Amtrak's forbidden by their running rights contract with MN to provide commuter type service on MN territory. Anyway, CDOT already throws Amtrak way too much in terms of the ShoreLine East ($10 per pax vs $2 with MN). Given how Amtrak seems to be happily letting the Springfield line fall to pieces, I don't see CT (in a state of financial chaos now anyway), tossing them any more money. I dunno, something about the capitol city's Amtrak station being an eyesore and a dangerous one at that....
There's talk the SLE might end up in MN's hands some day. We could only be so lucky....
RIDot could care less - Amtrak serves exactly one stop in RI, and it's served by the (T) commuter lines anyway. And yeah, the MBTA contracted out to Amtrak, but I hear they're less than happy with the service. Their stuff's nice, but it's S-L-O-W. No wait, slow isn't it. More like, painfully slow. Last one I was on took like 2 minutes to get up to 80mph. That's pathetic.
Try leaving Mansfield, MA northbound (inbound to Boston) on train 806, which is express to Back Bay. The single diesel is pushing five bilevels and two singles, packed full (including standees) -- about 1400 people, or over 200,000 lbs of commuter. It takes seven minutes to get up the hill towards Sharon, and just reaches 80mph as it passes the station (which is already on the downhill side).
BTW, there are other AMTRAK stops in Rhode Island: Kingston and Waverly.
BTW, there are other AMTRAK stops in Rhode Island: Kingston and Waverly.
I think that would be Westerly. What's going on with the station at TF Green Airport, has that been started?
Right, my oops. Waverly is a commuter rail stop :-) It's Westerly, RI. The TF Green Airport station is still in the "planning phase," which means it's waiting for money. But I recall reading a piece in the paper a few months ago that sounded optimistic.
AFAIK, the Warwick Intermodal Station site is currently in the environmental remediation phase. In a press release on 9/26/01, Gov. Almond said the project is "on track" and will proceed on schedule.
And speaking of RIDOT and the NEC, here's what's happening. I'm really going to miss the little stone underpass at Lincoln Avenue :(.
We're going to be in Cleveland on the night of 10/01/02 THU, riding Metro and railfanning. If anyone in the local vicinity want to join us, please e-mail me.
Lexcie
We're going to be in Cleveland on the night of 10/01/02 THU
Lexcie,
Most Americans would write this date as 01/10/02. Anticipate some questions.
Yep. That date format is Europe based, and a few Defense Dept agencies too.
Cleveland does not have a "Metro" but a "Rapid".
Since I work in an international business, I have gotten into the habit of writing the date like this: 10-JAN-01, to avoid confusion. The European paperwork I receive will sometimes throw me, because the writers often write the date a la Lexcie: 10-01-01. October first? No, January 10th.
Not if it’s Cleveland, England (which was a region in England, now elevated to administrative county status)!
Oh, and there’s rail-fanning too! The main Cleveland railway is the Saltburn to Darlington local railway, parts of which run over the first railway ever, with trains pulled by George Stephenson’s Rocket!
John
Okay, this probably falls into the "yesterday's news" category, but I found it amusing and heartwarming.
From Newsday.com: New York station brings Yule Log back to TV after 12 years
Apparently The Log beat out Martha Stewart, Sally Jesse, Montel, and all the rest of the daytime talk shows. Beautiful!
(On-topic note: The Yule Log was apparently sponsored in part by the MTA. Cool!)
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> [From Newsday.com:] they had a bit of an issue because she couldn't find the tape, which had been hidden away in an archive for 12 years. After some digital remastering, "Yule Log" was ready to roll. <<<
I guess this was the long awaited "Yule Log, the Director's Cut" :-)
Tom
Will there be a re-run for the Eastern Orthodox Christmas? I'd love to tape it and burn a CD!
avid
ok.. i had msts and it was great.. BUT HOLY SH** THIS BVE IS AWESOME... i just drove the G train... SO COOL :)
I MAY NOT GO TO BED TONIGHT :)
ok can some of you post where i can get more then the g? q would be great... also, can you see other views besides driving the train?
tahnks!
OMG i am about to lose it... this flushing line has announcements!!!
Heh. Ernie Alstom did good on that one. Wait until you play with the Q line, D train and some others. BVE has a LOT of support out there and new routes popping up every week or so for something worth rolling. And yes, MSTS blows. :)
You want my route? I have a Red Line WMATA route with announcements and the authentic doors opening and closing sounds of the Rohr subway cars but the console is still generic and the scenery is lacking since I need help making objects. A few people have but I have yet to really publicize it. E-mail me if you are interested.
Yeah, and the guy sounds like a real New Yorker.
Alan Glick
.. SPEAKING for the un-initiated...
what the PUCK is a BVE?
If sharing is caring, do tell where
we late-bloomers can join in the hysteria!
Go here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Tells you how to get started, where to get the stuff, and how to set it up if you don't speak Japanese ... then follow the links in the "OMG BVE" thread and welcome to the rails under your nose. Next best thing to paying dues to TWU. :)
Heh. Welcome aboard ... the ONE thing that BVE doesn't do is "let's see what the tunnel looks like from the route ... but if you want to OPERATE without having to whiz in the bottle, BVE is the ride.
Here's some other places to find things:
http://r68a_5200.tripod.com/ The Franklin shuttle route is STUNNING.
http://www.crotrainz.com/ Many routes and links to routes here.
There's also another site on msn somewhere, but I use Netscape and they insist on getting a Microsoft PASSPORT (no way) that has the E train from WTC and a few others ... I tend to look on crotrainz and should have a new BVE route available of my own creation in a couple of weeks. Been a bit too "real world" busy to work with it the last week and change but will get back on it. In the springtime, plan on releasing a 2ND AVENUE subway based on the existing drawings, but that's going to take a while ...
Welcome to the club ... BVE does subways wonderfully - if you visit Crotrainz, you will LOVE the Glasgow and London tubes lines. Definitely grab you some of that ...
How do you get BVE? How large are the files and how can you deal with all that Japanese stuff?
Answered in detail in the "BVE???" thread surrounding this one.
Yes I got to the helper site and downloaded the files, now I'm going to look at the install page.
OK I am having a problem with the install. In the step that has me click on the computer icon with the window and C:\Program Files\BVE. I click on Computer Icon and a window comes up and I hit where OK would be, but nothing happens. I'll keep trying some more, because I really want this thing to work.
OK I fixed the problem and it installed and I can get it to run. Now how do I get the train to move?
HAHAAHAH qtrain... took me a minute too
its either
z - go faster, a - reduce speed,
/ - apply brake
> - release
OR like in r143
z = reduce brake and go vroom
a = apply brake and slow the mother down
Better yet, since you're running a 143, take a JOYSTICK, plug it in and run BVE in "real mode" ... pull too hard and you go BIE just like the real deal. :)
You can select "joystick" in the CONTROL options ... the keyboard control is a bit lame and the "TrainController" hardware is nearly $200 ...
I never use the the brake on MY R-143. I drive it at 83 MPH on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
OK, that's it. I'm downloading it this weekend.
Here read this post at Straphangers that was started by me.
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=001051
The guys at Oaks Model RR captured the video clip and put it online. You can find it at http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Other/2001.mpg
If you thought travel time time on the MARC Penn Line was fast now (it IS the fastest commuter run in the nation) it's about to get faster. I just saw a video (13 meg) of a MARC painted HHP-8 electric electric locomotive in an NS freight consist pulling into Abrahms Yard in Valley Forge PA on Decembre 29th. Way to go MARC. All they need to do now is electrify some more routes. The video is here: http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Acela_movies.html
Railpace has a photo of it in Philly 12-15.
As does this month's issue of TRAINS magazine.
And the Baltimore NRHS Chapter's Newsletter beat Everybody to the punch!!!
In the December 2001 issue of the Interchange, published in middle November, a picure of MARC 4911 appears on page 12.
Why do they buy that crap a la Francaise?
'Cause nobody in the USofA wants to build electrics. EMD did do the AEM-7's, but even they aren't interested in electrics without diesel prime movers any more.
Last year there were a BIG & LARGE string of posts of what it was like riding the rails to & from the times square Dick Clark Special new years celebration(s) ..times square !!
?????????............................!!
It's called NO ONE WENT. I suspect half that footage they showed was a tape from last year. Hehe!
had to be a tape ....lol !!
i was in a chat room earlier, and a friend of mine was in it. Well her brother anyway. Anywaysi found out he is a railfan and interested in trains. i reccomended him to this site because when i was recommended hea by Peter dougherty's NYC trackbook. Anyways his handle will be 3 7 AVENUE EXPRESS. i believe thats it. anyways hopefully he can learn alot here as i have and still am.
ARE U ACCEPTING THE PROPER LINEUP?
TAKE BOTTOM GREEN AND IM ME AT AOL INSTANT MESSENGER F TRAIN 5656
OTHER TIMES USE A 8AV FULTON EXP
NIGHTS USE etrain6@hotmail.com email
SUBTALK
VIA LOCAL
Tell him he is welcome and he will be treated as would anyone else here.
NO WAIT. Forget the 2nd part!! He'll just have to take his chances like the rest of us. :)
Hardly any legroom on this loveseat, ya know?
You didn't buy the fold out sofa?
I'm going through this article on the way to school this morning (yep, I just can't seem to stay away from that damn place!), and I find that Pataki is asking Congress for a temporary waiver on Clean Air Act air quality controls for new projects on two grounds:
1) The New York Metropolitan Transportation Council, which draws up such plans, has been on hiatus since 9-11, when its offices were destroyed and some members killed when 1 WTC came crashing down, and
2) Commuting patterns have changed in such a way that some of the air quality regulations on new projects are now irrelevant.
This is certainly understandable, given that the PATH line to lower Manhattan is shut down, forcing people to either take their cars, NJ Transit, ferries, or the PATH line to Midtown. But the problem arises in Pataki's asking the Feds for the waiver to be in effect until 2005, which could have a substantial effect on new construction projects and transit purchases, particularly locomotives, bueses, and generating plants.
This possibility has raised the eyebrows of Congressmen (particularly Democratic ones) and environmentalists alike. Fears are that such a waiver, if granted, will give Pataki and the State of NY leeway on projects that could be potentially hazardous to the communities they affect.
Sorry, but I don't have the web address for this (I'm not registered), but the article appears on the front page (bottom right hand corner) of today's Times Metro Section.
The article is on the TOP right hand corner of the NYT Metro Section.
You may click here to view it.
It certainly raises my concern.
"In the meantime, [Pataki] officials say, changed commuting patterns, especially for former PATH riders, can mean more driving and more air pollution." RICHARD PÉREZ-PEÑA, NY Times, JAnuary 2, 2002.
While at first glance, I was inclined to believe that a relaxation in environmental regulations might help fast track mass transit construction projects, after reading the article, I now realize that such a move could simply be an excuse for the Whacky Pataki administration to stop the clock on environmental progress in the region.
""Without the waiver, we're frozen into transportation projects that don't make sense any more." ibid.
Well duh. But before they're completed, they'll make sense again. What? Nobody's ever going to work in downtown again?
What is it with their love affair with the automobile? It is so like them to mortgage the future in order to be lazy in the present.
MATT-2AV
apres moi le deluge Louis XIV about debt, most Republivcans about environmental issues. "my car is my freedom machine" (a slogan from late seventies radio ads
I felt it was about time I post some of the most interesting bits about the Dec 27th SEPTA field trip.
The total cost per person was 3+2.50+3+3+1.30 or $12.80.
No matter where we went we were just in time to miss a train.
Eating lunch at Wayne Junction turned out to be not an option as the sketchyness of the area was exceedingly high. We camped out on the platform.
The wooden canopy over the lo-level, inbound platform at Wayne Jct. has devoloped a definite slant and looks about ready to pancake.
--
\__\
The R8 got up to 70 on the NEC, on the PRR Cheshnut Hill line the linespeed was 50. The speed on the Reading line was 40 or 45 and on the run to Lansdale the speed frequently reached 60. Speed on the doylestown branch was 40 or 45.
The most exciting part was running expres on the R5 from Wayne Jct to Jenkintown. There were several abandonned stations south of Fern Rock, the line was 3 track to Fern Rock and the large Junction at Newtown Jct. was a thrill to speed through.
The best wildlife encounter was a Red Tailed Hawk feasting on a newly trainkilled deer lying w/in the 5 foot of the n/b track.
Lunch was had during the 1/2 hour layover at Lansdale. We walked 3 blocks to a McDonnalds that I heard was popular for patrons of NRHS fan trips.
The old freight station at Doylestown is going to become a bar, but right now it has more rust than Redbirds.
The animated subway ad has been only installed on the outbound PATCO track at Franklyn Square.
According to the T/O, the abandonned Spring Garden station on the Ridge Line has been visited by world renound graffitti artists. Also, current devolopment patterns might get the station re-opened. The T/O also blamed the ridge line's current ridership levels on poor marketing on behalf of SEPTA.
That is about all I have. Happy New year.
The Ridge Spur remains one of SEPTA's best kept secrets. One would hardly know how, when or where to find it, especially after the little 'dance' that was done a few years ago when the trains were extended to Fern Rock via express. I'd venture to say that many everyday Broad St riders avoid the Spur due to the little general knowledge of it. Every time I've used it, it's darn empty.
Just north of Wayne Junction on Germantown Ave (past Berkley St), there are a handful of small mom & pop type stores where a good lunch could be had (to go, if you prefer). Admittedly the area is a tad bit 'sketchy' but not so unfriendly during the day.
The abandoned station at Logan (atop the Broad St Subway stop of the same name) will become a further victim of the next phase of the mainline rebuild (Wayne Jct-Glenside). The platforms will be removed, which will further seal its fate. Whether the old Fern Rock (just north of the new Fern Rock) will get this same treatment, I don't know.
The bar at Doylestown has been a long time coming. The restaurant at Jenkintown (Stasi Milano) is closing and may have already shut down at this point. Although I always thought it was very successful, it wasn't. The parking situation at the station is apparently partly to blame. It makes one wonder if the bar at Doylestown can survive this difficulty, given the even tighter parking situation there.
I had heard that the Spur station at Spring Garden might come back, but I don't know about any development in the immediate area that would push this. There is the renovated building at 10th & Spring Garden that houses several city offices that could attract some ridership, but that's it as far as I know. One thing that does hurt the Spur is the free interchange at City Hall, which makes riding on the more frequent Broad St main line and transferring to/from the El a little more attractive (especially given the Spur's awful off-peak headways).
...and more.
Click here and then click on the 31 that appears in the left frame.
Nice pics, but your webhost is a pain in the ass, had to disable Java because of all the pop up ads.
I was looking at the pictures of the r-143s and the other on this website http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/ They were good pictures.
#3 West End Jeff
Someone had told me that there was an abandoned station on the LIRR Atlantic branch, underground at Woodhaven (not the one on the Rockaway Branch) where it connected with the abandoned station on the Rockaway Branch at Atlantic Avenue. Is this true and does anyone know where there are any photos posted, either past or present?
Check the archives on this board...The subject was extensive discussed within the last 6 months. The platforms are clearly visible from the railfan windows on both the E/B and W/B sides.
Someone had told me that there was an abandoned station on the LIRR Atlantic branch, underground at Woodhaven (not the one on the Rockaway Branch) where it connected with the abandoned station on the Rockaway Branch at Atlantic Avenue. Is this true and does anyone know where there are any photos posted, either past or present?
It's true. You can get a quick glimpse from LIRR trains going to and from Flatbush Avenue, but don't expect to see much - last I saw, only one small part of each platform is lit, and the trains go past at a very high speed.
Don't know of any pictures.
If you get off at East New York, you can still the sign for the Rockaways.
Mr rt__:^)
Actually, I used ENY from the Atlantic L station on Tuesday and as you said, there still is a sign that says "Jamaica and the Rockaways" at the LIRR ENY station! What is that, close to 50 years later, after service ended!
Actually, I used ENY from the Atlantic L station on Tuesday and as you said, there still is a sign that says "Jamaica and the Rockaways" at the LIRR ENY station! What is that, close to 50 years later, after service ended!
Of course, if one wants to get really technical about things, the sign is still accurate.
Of course, if one wants to get really technical about things, the sign is still accurate.
I don't think that's what they had in mind with that sign, but technically, I guess you are right if you get on a train at ENY to Far Rockaway.....
"Of course, if one wants to get really technical about things, the sign is still accurate.
I don't think that's what they had in mind with that sign, but technically, I guess you are right if you get on a train at ENY to Far Rockaway..... "
... or East Rockaway -- but then you're really not in "the Rockaways"
CG
Perhaps the sign should be reoriented to point toward the A train.
Actually the sign, if I remeber correctly is painted on the tiles in the crossunder of the LIRR ENY.
It is. But now the A train uses the route that the sign originally referred to.
December 26:
My trip started off in a rather interesting way. I made a unique acquisition to my collection when I was able to pick up a piece of upholstery off the floor of Breda 3219 on my way to Union Station. It was more like a strip. I could see where it had come from and it was about 6 inches in length. I saw the holiday display at Union Station and then went to board my Acela Express to New York. The train we had was trainset number 14 (2015-2005). I got the conductor who gave me the carbide in September and I found some other things out from the train crew. All the Acela trainsets are to be in service in June. Eighteen will run daily and two will be in "reserve". The bathroom doors, as I mentioned in the post earlier this week, are still problematic and some people at Amtrak are bracing for a big PR issue if anything happens. This was a conductor who said he was bracing for the trouble, I wonder if the dark suits even thought of this. As I said, they needed a crowbar to get one of those doors open. Also, the curve at the Metropark station is the reason why the Acela has to spend such a long time at that station. The doors can't get enough air to close due to the tilt and they must be closed manually. They had to do this with three of them on that trip. Maybe the Acela should only open selected doors at Metropark. While we were there, a NJT train with Comet cars pulled in while we were platformed and left before we did. Also, it didn't appear too many people on the platform were happy to see us pull in and sit forever. What surprised me was the number of thru passengers from points south to Boston. We arrived one minute late. While taking the switches at Penn, someone commented that the Acela was less stable than the Metroliner. I told them it wasn't and the switches we were riding on were the problem but he refused to believe me.
I went to the subway where I added money to my MetroCard, then entered and waited for an E train. An R38 C train came, followed by an R32 E to 179th that was suffering a really bad case of lost train syndrome. The first four cars were signed as follows:
179th Street
Queens
Canal Street
Manhattan
E 8th Avenue
Local
The next four cars were signed this way:
179th Street
Queens
Canal Street
Manhattan
F 6th Avenue/
Culver Local
Finally, the last two cars were signed:
Jamaica Center/
Parsons-Archer
Canal Street
Manhattan
E 8th Avenue
Local
I got a photo of the F sign, which I might get developed later today. I got on in the last car, 3885, then moved through to its mate and wound up in the last of the F signed cars, 3468. The conductor announced several times "This is an E train operating over the F route to 179th" which confused a few people but it seemed most people knew where to go. I got off at Lex where two V trains came in following the E I was on, both were rather empty. This was at about 7 PM.
I went upstairs and caught R62A 1805 on the 6. The T/O on this train accelerated so quickly it was amazing. The instant the doors closed, we were off.
December 27:
My travels today by transit were limited. I took Artic 1048 on the M79 from Madison to Columbus and RTS 4828 from there to Lincoln Center on the M11.
December 28:
Many travels today. I started at 77th Street where I bought a Fun Pass and caught R142A 7261 to Grand Central, where I switched for the express and got R62 1391 to Union Square. 1391 seemed to sway quite a bit between 42nd and 14th. The plan was to arrive about 5 minutes before the 8th Avenue bound R143 at 9:35, take it to 8th, then go to Canarsie on its 9:46 interval, and then continue elsewhere. I asked a C/R on a train of R42s heading to 8th if the 143 was in service, he said yes, but he didn't know how far back it was because there was switching trouble in ENY that morning. It eventually came, about 45 minutes late. The problem with my choosing Union Square to wait is that it is hard to identify the Manhattan bound train car types as they enter since there is a curve and a grade before they enter the station. I noticed while I was waiting many trains were signed J on the head ends (the ends were signed correctly) and that these signs were illuminated, even though they served no real purpose at that point.
Once on the R143, I went to 8th Avenue. It was about to go out for the Canarsie trip immediately but they decided to push it back an interval so the crew could get a break. When they announced the next train would be on the opposite track, everyone left except me, which made the train crew realize I was in fact a railfan. The speed in the river was good, although some of those curves are really slow. I wish they had let the male recording do the transfers or they should have gotten rid of him altogether, his limited existence is really stupid in my opinion. Also, there is an S bullet under 6th Avenue on the trip map, any reason why? I do like the R143 much more than the R142A. I think it looks better from the outside and maybe because it isn't replacing the redbirds. I can't say the R42s are my favorite cars in the system, but the R40 slants are up there. I think as we left the station before Halsey, I was invited into the cab for a brief ride. The controller is in a really uncomfortable position. I had to leave just before we entered ENY due to the possible high numbers of supervision in the area. I rode out to Canarsie, where I ran back to the lead for the Manhattan bound trip, and doubled back to ENY. They did a partial shutdown at Canarsie which they told me often does not work. I hope to be able to ride the R143 again in the future, it seems like quite a nice train.
At ENY, I changed for the J. That platform needs a windscreen badly! I got R42 4808 which I took out to Jamaica Center. Can the lower levels of the Archer Avenue Stations hold 10 cars? Also, why are there no real stop markers, just numbers sprayed on the wall? We passed over a set of railroad tracks in the vicinity of 121st Street. Who uses those tracks? I am not talking about the LIRR tracks the train passes right before the Archer Avenue portal, but the ones before those if you are on the outbound train. Lastly, for anyone who complains that the curves on the J are really bad, they aren't much worse than some others on the NYC subway system. While I have yet to complete it, the N/R/W at 57th, the 1 and 2 near Chambers, and the L in various places come to mind immediately.
Went upstairs and caught an R32 E train. It was about to leave so I got on towards the back and walked up. The lead car was 3589. I got off at Union Turnpike and noted that car number 3862 was paired with car 3839. I then took R46 6038 to 179th Street. I went "up and over" to wait for an R32, which lasted about as long as I had food to eat. I eventually took 5958 from 179th to 47-50. It was a nice run but I can't say the Queens Boulevard Express is really that fast. We couldn't even pass an R train between Elmhurst and Roosevelt. The train also has to slow down quite a bit at 36th to get to the 63rd Street Connector. Lexington appeared to be used quite heavily and it seemed everyone knew where they were going. The C/R announced before Roosevelt the service change but didn't announce the transfer to the 6 at Lex. I went "up and over" at 47-50 where I caught a R46 5652 on the V to Queens. The V was quite full, all seats were taken, and many people exited at 23rd Avenue. I went to Queens Plaza, only because the C/R didn't announce the 7 transfer at 23rd which I had forgot. Our V pulled in at the same time as an R across the platform but I changed for an Manhattan bound E and didn't look to see which left first. I rode in the 9th car, 3420, which was paired with 3465. I then used the MetroCard transfer (although I had a Fun Pass) to get to the 7. I took the express to Main Street with R36 WF 9697, then came back stopping at Willets Point to walk the bridge towards Corona and Casey Stengal where I saw Viking 996 and also stopping at 111th, 82nd, and 46th, for photo ops, before going to Grand Central. I rode the following WF and ML R36s on the inbound legs: 9650, 9377, 9527, 6475, and 9404. I bought this year's calendar, and then shuttled over to Times Square on R62A 1931 to see the Jacob Lawrence mosaic. I then took R62A 1880, which I believe had a blue sticker on it, to 148th Street. I saw 1731-1735 on the 3 with Pelham stickers and 1771-1775 had red stickers. I exited at 148th, hoping to find the M102 stop at 147th. When I got there, I found the stop but it seemed to be the last stop. The driver of an M1 took me around to 146th and Lenox, the official stop, on board Orion V 6042, and then I got TMC RTS 5187 on the M102 back to the Upper East Side. That terminal stand should be moved to 147th and Clayton in my opinion so it is closer to the subway, the M2, and also because that is what the map depicts.
December 29:
A far less eventful day. I should have bought a fun pass because it would have saved money but I didn't. I was going from the Upper East Side to Rockefeller Center and without the F on weekends, it was quite a trip. I first took R62A 1811 to 59th Street. I then walked up to 63rd to get the F there. The conductor announced the W at 59th and not the F. Someone has got to get these 6 C/Rs to get it straight. They always announce the W when it doesn't run and no one on any line is announcing the MetroCard transfers. There was one person on the platform at Lex who didn't realize it was a MetroCard only transfer so someone was trying to give them directions. I got R46 5952 which I took to 47-50. After seeing the tree, my next destination was the Met. I was going to go by bus, so I eventually wound up at the stop at Madison and 58th, a limited stop. Two limiteds had just left, and on Saturdays, I have found the limited beats out the local despite the 10 minute wait. The only problem was that the wait ended up being about 20 minutes for any bus. First came an M1 which I passed up, and nothing came on the M3 or 4 either. It was the worst Saturday M2 Limited I have been on since it was fairly crowded. The bus was TMC RTS 8791. Later in the day, I took R62A 1721 to Grand Central where I took the 5:20 Hudson Line train to Tarrytown. The first two cars were closed off to passengers which made no sense to me since some passengers were standing. The car was 8086, what type is that? Also, what are the three lights (green, amber, and blue) above the cab for?
December 31:
Spent a few minutes at Irvington photographing. Unfortunately, since my camera battery is lithium and it was about 30 degrees, it wasn't working too well. I missed a shot of a passing Empire Service train as well as the rear of a northbound local. I got a few pics which I hope do come out.
To anyone who finds the questions in this post and answers them, thanks in advance. Also, the pics will be on my site ASAP.
We passed over a set of railroad tracks in the vicinity of 121st Street. Who uses those tracks?
The tracks near 121st St. are the LIRR Montauk Branch to Long Island City
We passed over a set of railroad tracks in the vicinity of 121st Street. Who uses those tracks?
The tracks near 121st St. are the LIRR Montauk Branch to Long Island City
Unfortunately, since my camera battery is lithium and it was about 30 degrees, it wasn't working too well. I missed a shot of a passing Empire Service train as well as the rear of a northbound local.
That happened to me yesterday in South Station. I keep having to take the battery out and breathe on the contacts to make it work. It stopped working entirely once I had taken my critital shots of AEM-7 #925, then it somehow found the energy to unwind the entire roll of film. Batteries are weird.
Oren:
Sounds like a really neat trip!
I will finally get to "experience" the Queens IND on January 18, myself. Something to look forward to (?).
The car observations are quite useful. R-62A 1880 & company on the 3 are nowadays a fairly unusual occurence. It's hard to find "Lenox" 62As on Lenox; sometimes harder to find Redbirds on the 6!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
TThe Airtrain is going to connect Jamaica with the terminals at JFK (I believe it is just one route connecting JFK Terminals to Jamaica Station). So far the project seems to be a sucess, and moving along nicely. Are there any planned extensions as of yet, such as to La Guardia. I know there was some talk of connecting the two airports. I don't know what kind of ROW that would use however. It just seems that a similar system would work well for La Guardia (someone had mentioned that in an earlier post on LaGuardia)if connecting to the current AirTrain, and slowly inching toward Manhattan.
1. There is a branch being built to the A train at Howard Beach. In fact this part will be completed before the Jamaica portion.
2. Once, the PA did plan to run Airtrain past Jamaica to LAG -- along the Van Wyck. This idea has been abandoned.
Airtrain LGA If Constructed Would Only Go To Woodside - 61st Avenue Station Connecting with (7) Subway & All Branches of The LIRR Except Long Island City & Atlantic Avenue Branches.
"All Branches of The LIRR Except Long Island City & Atlantic Avenue Branches."
That doesn't leave many branches.
"Once, the PA did plan to run Airtrain past Jamaica to LAG -- along the Van Wyck. This idea has been abandoned."
Are you sure? What was the reasoning? When was this statement made? I have lately heard rumors to the contrary.
MATT-2AV
I remember at some point before the current AirTrain was fully planned that the proposal was for a JFK-LGA-Manhattan line that would connect both airports and run over the Queensboro Bridge. I think it was to be a monorail. After going back to the drawing board a couple of times and figuring out how much money was available, they ended up with just the JFK-Jamaica portion. In theory they were to design the line so that it would be possible to extend it to LGA (and Manhattan, I guess) in the future, but I'm not sure what that really means. There are no current proposals I've heard of to get the line to LGA, but will be happy to hear anything to the contrary.
There was talk during the early construction phases of AirTrain that someone would look into the feasibility of through-running trains from Penn Station to JFK via LIRR and AirTrain tracks, but I haven't heard anything recently about that either, and in any case that wouldn't have been ready in time for initial AirTrain operation.
You would need new rolling stock which is FRA-certified. And, there's no chance of this happening until the LIRR 63rd St tunnel enters service. The Queens end at Sunnyside Yard is under construction now.
You would need new rolling stock which is FRA-certified. And, there's no chance of this happening until the LIRR 63rd St tunnel enters service. The Queens end at Sunnyside Yard is under construction now.
CLICK! The light just turned on. Right ... to get JFK users where they want to go -- mostly midtown, but not under Alexander's (the old proposal) -- you run GCT to LIRR 63rd Street Connector to Jamaica to AirTrain (hopefully connecting to AirTrain before that massive interlocking).
Though I can't imagine it would take less than 45 minutes to go from GCT to JFK ... anyone know?
This *does* add some usefulness to the LIRR East Side Access program. And by then they'll have 12 years of AirTrain and it'll be more firmly embedded into transit planning.
Can the LIRR physically (not politically) use the AirTrain ROW? And where would the connection between LIRR and AirTrain be made?
Can the LIRR physically (not politically) use the AirTrain ROW? And where would the connection between LIRR and AirTrain be made?
At Jamaica, where AirTrain track comes in parallel to existing southern tracks.
Hopefully the switches will come as early as possible before the interlocking (heading east/south), since every LIRR train I've ever been on has to creeeeeeeeeeeeeeep slowly through the entire mess.
At Jamaica, I noticed they are working on the station and a building for the AirTrain. Is the building for offices for the AirTrain, or what is the building for? I also noticed that one of the tracks of the LIRR go right throught the building! Is that track going to be some kind of Passenger transfer?
Jamaica Station is undergoing a nearly $400 million redevelopment. A new glass and steel terminal is rising up around the olde building; the old building will then be torn down. Part of the new building is the AirTrain terminal. AirTrain will, however be open to service long before this whole complex is finished.
Jamaica Station is undergoing a nearly $400 million redevelopment. A new glass and steel terminal is rising up around the olde building; the old building will then be torn down. Part of the new building is the AirTrain terminal.
WOW. Missed this entirely. Any online info? Can't find anything on MTA site.
Will it include more platform staircases? I got caught in a Friday night platform change and it was pretty frightening ... exactly 2 staircases on each platform, and about 50,000 people afraid they would miss their connection. Hoo boy.
The Port Authority had a lot of stuff about this on its pre-9/11 website. I hope it will come back at some point.
The Port Authority had a lot of stuff about this on its pre-9/11 website. I hope it will come back at some point.
It's still there. I don't remember anything more detailed.
Cool!
50,000? Really?
Seriously, there are two stairs to overpasses leading from each platform, plus another two, IIRC, leading to an underpass near the east end of the platforms. Unless, of course, something's been torn down in the last few weeks.
50,000? Really?
Well ... no. But it sure as heck seemed like it.
Seriously, there are two stairs to overpasses leading from each platform, plus another two, IIRC, leading to an underpass near the east end of the platforms. Unless, of course, something's been torn down in the last few weeks.
For some reason, none of the passengers who suddenly had to switch platforms used the underpasses. And I didn't know they were there. Everyone crowded into the stairways, which of course had a few people trying to come down them. And it was a beach train so there was a LOT of weekender luggage, unlike weekday commuter traffic (briefcases at most).
All in all, it was a miserable experience and one of the reasons that I take the train from Hunterspoint Avenue if I possibly can.
Life is far too short to change at Jamaica.
AFAIK, the old LIRR building will remain, and only the AirTrain terminal, "vertical circulation" building, and platform canopies are glass and steel (contextual development, anyone?). At least I think that's the old building on the right side of this slide.
You could be right; on the other hand I distinctly remember MTA stating it would replace Jamaica Station entirely with a new building, and the price tag quoted will pay for more than glass canopies and a vertical circulator. A construction supervisor at the site told me the old building was coming down.
I hope I'm right; that building is landmarked! :) The entire platform structure is being replaced, not just the canopies, which contributes to the $400M cost. I'd guess that a new building would cost more.
The entire platform structure is being replaced, not just the canopies, which contributes to the $400M cost.
Wonder if there are any thoughts toward double-decking it so you can have two layers of platforms AND some bypass tracks so not every SINGLE train has to stop there?
Any idea?
Wonder if there are any thoughts toward double-decking it so you can have two layers of platforms AND some bypass tracks so not every SINGLE train has to stop there?
None whatsoever
There already are some bypass tracks, but they're on the same level as the other tracks: http://www.kennedyairport.com/airtrain/Drawings11-00_Gallery/images/s-vcb-trac-101200.jpg
There already are some [Jamaica] bypass tracks, but they're on the same level as the other tracks: http://www.kennedyairport.com/airtrain/Drawings11-00_Gallery/images/s-vcb-trac-101200.jpg
Has any LIRR passenger train in history ever used them?
I have to think that there'd be a market for one or two "Super Expresses" (like Metro North has) that don't stop til the few stations at the end of their run.
This would only work if the bypass tracks were relatively quick, and trains didn't have to slow for 10 minutes grinding through the entire interlocking to get to/from the bypass tracks.
I think a small handfull of rushhour trains from Penn do actually skip Jamaica.
I think a small handfull of rushhour trains from Penn do actually skip Jamaica.
Ah, that's good to know. I've clearly never ridden one.
Does any SubTalker know if this helps speed things up or if they still take the 10 minutes of crawling thru the interlocking?
For 11 1/2 years I took trains to/from Penn Sta that skipped Jamaica.
The speed thru the station varied based on traffic, but we NEVER sped thru.
Mr rt__:^)
Quite a few trains bypass Jamaica, especially during the PM rush. Some of my favorites are
4:24 to Ronkonkoma - first stop Bethpage
4:51 to Ronkonkoma - first stop Hicksville
5:22 to Ronkonkoma - first stop Wyandanch
5:41 to Ronkonkoma - First Stop Hicksville
5:53 to Ronkonkoma - first stop Bethpage
5:36 to babylon - First stop Massapequa
In the AM there are also 5 trains from Ronkonkoma that do not stop at Jamaica. I don't know how many Babylon trains bypass jamaca but the best Babylon train is the 6:07AM? After Babylon, the first stop is the last stop, Penn Station.
Quite a few trains bypass Jamaica, especially during the PM rush.
Thanks, Dude. So ... how much time does this actually save? Comments on crawling through the interlocking?
According to the published schedules, trains stopping at Jamaica dwell from 1 to 2 minutes. Since the crawl through the interlock is constant it's likely that the actual time savings are more than the 1-2 minutes. FOr me, it's not the time though. It's the bother of people getting up and changing trains at jamaica. It's the disruption of my rest and the need to show my 'ticket' to the conductor again. Even when I'm on a train that does stop at Jamaica, if it's more than 10 cars long, I ride in the rear of the train since those last 2 cars do not platform in Jamaica. Personally, though, I agree that the extremely slow pace through the Jamaica station interlockings can be irksome. I don't see the reason for it, but then again, I'm sure they have their reasons.
Several years ago there was a train (IIRC the 5:23 Penn-Huntington) that only stopped at Syosset, CSH & Huntington. However I remember it pulling through one of the platforms without stopping, so that the time savings is really negligible. All it accomplished was that there was no picking up of Flatbush or HP transferees.
There are 12 AM westbound's and 14 PM eastbound's on the Babylon branch that skip Jamaica to/from Penn Station.
Huntington has 4 in each direction to/from Penn. There's also one Flatbush-to-Huntington PM train and a Port Jeff-Hunterspoint AM train which skip Jamaica.
As mentioned by TD, Ronkonkoma has 5 in each direction.
Long Beach has 2 eastbound and 3 westbound.
Far Rock has 2 eastbound, but none westbound.
Hempstead has 2 westbound, but none eastbound. (go figure)
West Hempstead and Oyster Bay have none.
Time saved varies, but (based on perception only) the most time is saved on trains which switch from the Babylon tracks to the Atlantic tracks at Valley Stream. The Atlantic tracks join the main line just east of Jamaica, and as a result skip many of the switches and congestion east of Jamaica.
CG
What is the track going to be used for that runs under and through the new buildings in the right of the picture. You can also see it at track 8 of the platform in Jamaica.
And if the trains didn't have to wait all day for clearance into the East River tubes.
So you mean that the waiting room that they just fixed so nicely on the old building is being torn dowwn with thew old building. Why did they redo the whole waiting/ticket area?
Wait I just saw on another part of the thread that the old building will remain with the new complex.
You are correct. The LIRR Building from 1913 will remain.
It does have a lot of character, doesn't it?
I read somewhere that it was built strong enough so that an additional 7-10 floors could be added if necessary.
A new glass and steel terminal is rising up around the olde building; the old building will then be torn down. Part of the new building is the AirTrain terminal.
From the PA website: "The AirTrain Terminal design at Jamaica Station has several components that will be integrated into the existing historical complex ... "
Key words "integrated INTO" and "existing HISTORICAL". The old one stays.
I guess the construction supervisor I talked to at the site was wrong...OK.
I have nothing against the current building. It does need a little interior updating, though.
They did a really nice job updating the ticket area.
There is a branch being built to the A train at Howard Beach. In fact this part will be completed before the Jamaica portion.
That's right, I forgot about that branch. So there will actually be two subway connections.
I haven't seen anything formal, but I'd be surprised if the Port Authority hadn't considered that connecting the JFK Airtrain from Jamaica to LGA would effectively create one very large airport from two. After all, it can take 20-30 minutes to get around DFW on their internal air train.
LGA and JFK currently serve very different clienteles. The thing they're missing out on are the international connections. JFK has the best schedule for international flights to Europe, but passengers travelling from mid-America are hard-pressed to take advantage of those options without taking a taxi from LGA to JFK. Not likely.
Extending the Air Train would increase traffic at both airports, giving a boost to the landing and departure taxes the PA receives on each passenger.
CG
It's a very interesting thought. If one looks at the arrangement of the trackway, Jamaica could serve as a stub terminal where trains could change ends and head for the alternate airport. The northern route could follow the Van Wyck median (as it does on the southern route) directly to LGA or with an intermediate stop for a connection with the #7 line at Willets Pt. Blvd. Whether the PA looks at it as an intra-airport system as you suggest or as a connector between the two airports, the LGA segment might actually get more ridership than the southern leg.
Are there any other stations for the Air Train between Jamaica Station and the airport (aside from the branch to Howard Beach)
There are no other stations between Jamaica and the Airport stations.
There are no other stations between Jamaica and the Airport stations.
Nor can there be. AirTrain is being funded by a charge levied on airline tickets. Federal laws imposing this "passenger facility charge" prevent the proceeds from being used for transit projects that will benefit persons other than airport users. Having no stations other than Jamaica/Howard Beach and those at JFK itself means that AirTrain will be of relatively little use to anyone but airline passengers and airport employees. That, in turn, keeps Congress happy.
You could theoretically have an intermediate stop on the Van Wyck, but it would have to work like this: Riders may only board Airport-bound trains; riders may only alight from Jamaica-bound trains. Doesn't that resemble what Long Island Bus does at its Queens stations?
"You could theoretically have an intermediate stop on the Van Wyck, but it would have to work like this: Riders may only board Airport-bound trains; riders may only alight from Jamaica-bound trains. Doesn't that resemble what Long Island Bus does at its Queens stations? "
Yes it does. Interesting idea. Also resembles what Amtrak does (or used to do) at some NEC stations (Metropark and New Carrollton come to mind) -- some trains stop only to receive or discharge passengers.
CG
Thye only thing is that it would slow the train up a bit. It would have to be estimated how many people would use an intermediate station to go to JFK.
Very true.
So long as one end of the trip has to be on the airport grounds, I would estimate that the number of trips per month with the other end at a hypothetical mid-point station would be approximately none.
"So long as one end of the trip has to be on the airport grounds, I would estimate that the number of trips per month with the other end at a hypothetical mid-point station would be approximately none. "
Not necessarily. A station on the JFK train just north of the Belt could serve all of the hotels in that area and would have the effect of reducing on-airport traffic further. Also, many of the airport's employees live just north of the airport along the Van Wyck.
CG
Thanks for sharing that info. I was unaware of that technicality.
So if I understand you correctly, should the MTA wish to extend the Astoria line to LaGuardia, or use a branch off of the Flushing line, it may not receive funding from airline ticket surcharges.
It would instead have to be funded by us, the taxpayers and straphangers.
In my opinion, this is one more reason why I like the JFK AirTrain situation; it is paid for by those who use it, and it is designed for those who use it.
MATT-2AV
So if I understand you correctly, should the MTA wish to extend the Astoria line to LaGuardia, or use a branch off of the Flushing line, it may not receive funding from airline ticket surcharges.
Not necessarily. If the extension/branch goes solely to the airport, without intermediate stops after leaving the existing line, one could argue that it would be useful only to airport users and therefore should qualify for ticket-surcharge funding. In other words, although the extension/branch would be part of the subway system, persons other than airport users would not have reason to go beyond the "original" part of the Astoria or Flushing line.
I'm not so sure it would fly. They may have no reason to go beyond that point, but that doesn't mean that they can't (without extra measures, like an exit fare). However, I really must not try and speculate on what a court would rule.
MATT-2AV
Would it be possible to fund a subway branch / extension by surcharge funding then at a later date add an intermediate station by other means?
I think that after the JFK Airtrain is completed, a branch to LaGuardia seems like the next logical expansion for the reasons you stated. It may even be a better connection than the N train to LaGuardia. Once LaGuardia is connected to JFK, thew next step (and getting closer, once at LaGuardia) would be some sort of connection to Manhattan. Although I don't know how or where would be the easiest and most Efficiect route to Manhattan, from LaGuardia for the Airtrain
As many of you know, the TA generally has no idea where its trains are between the time the leave one terminal and the time they arrive at the next -- unless a T/O pulls up to a phone to report a problem, or a tower calls one in. Therefore, only BIG problems get reported, and Newsradio88 almost always reports mass transit is "on or close to schedule."
If the TA pulls off ATS, however, all that will change. If any given train is eight seconds behind schedule, it will be immediately and clearly visible at the new Rail Control Center.
I wonder what the inter-face with the traffic agencies will be? Would the ten minute delay in-bound on the #4 at 6:50 a.m. this morning become newsworthy?
How is transit news reported in Washington, where ATO is standard?
It isn't. WMATA doesn't give WTOP any information outside rush hour or during rush for that matter. Whatever they provide is often bare bones so it isn't much help. Not even Lisa Baden's daily dose of humor helps the anger when they can't simply report if the trains are on time.
Would the ten minute delay in-bound on the #4 at 6:50 a.m. this morning become newsworthy?
If they listed every "minor" delay... the traffic guy would never get a break.Also, why would the T/o turn off the ATS?
I chuckle when I hear that too. I prefer to hear, "On or close to the track."
Here in Boston where the MBTA knows where all of its commuter trains are, the right word doesn't get out to the media. Case in point -- in the aftermath of last Thursday evening's Amtrak derailment at Canton Junction, one of tracks was still out-of-service all day Friday, causing delays of 60-90 minutes on the Providence line. On Friday morning, I listened to WBZ Newsradio-1030 and its traffic reports "on the 3s" for 45 minutes... and there was NO MENTION OF ANY DELAYS.
Unfortunately traffic reports and news stations play favorites with the cars, they rarely mention transit delays unless there is a suspension of service, and even when that has happened it's gone unmentioned on 880 or 1010.
Personally I think there should be a news station broadcast just in the subways, with only subway and MTA info without having to sit through all the damn traffic reports. I don't drive so they are worth nothing to me.
Added to the lack of info given to the news media is the fact that the news media doesn't know what to do when they receive the info.
I would estimate that 25% of their more unusual reports, whether related to the roads or transit, are garbled in some way. If it isn't about the Hudson River crossings or the Kosciuscko Bridge (and equally well-known trouble spots), they don't have a clue.
I don't remember any particularly outrageous examples at the moment, but one of my favorites is when they don't tell you in which direction on a highway or transit line the blockage has occurred.
>>unless a T/O pulls up to a phone to report a problem<<
Larry,
The T/O's have had 2 way radios for about 30 years. They don't use the phones much anymore (if at all). The Towers have radios as well and they can use either (radio or phone).
Where have you been living? In a cave?
As far as not knowing where the trains are. That may be true for the B division from a Control Center standpoint but the A division board at 370 Jay St does work. Let me assure you that in all divisions the towers keep a close eye on things and call trains when they stay in a station too long.
I thought that everytime a train came into the station, it had to get written into a pad of paper someplace. I don't remember who called in the times, and who wrote them down, but I vaguely remember something like that from the article in the times that basically said that all NYCT had to year 2000 check was their fax machine ;)
Only major stations such as 125th St, Grand Central, Brooklyn Bridge, Bwoling Green.
The only part that works is the Lex from 125 south to B'klyn Bridge; otherwise, they're as much in the dark as B1 and B2.
Perhaps, but the model boards in the towers do work so there is some light at the end of that tunnel.
I can't believe I just said that.
Model boards at the towers have always worked; that's why during a problem, a T/O is more likely to call the tower first. If you're 'blind', better to call someone who can see than another 'blind' person.
My sweatshirt - The light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming train.
My T-shirt - Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
From a sign on an office door where I work:
It has come to our attention that the light at the end of the tunnel does not conform to standards.
Effective immediately, please disregard the light. It will be extinguished as soon as possible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder what the inter-face with the traffic agencies will be?
Why not provide a website interface for the general public that shows the real time status of all trains, something like what the MUNI already does.
Bemoaning the lack of transit info on the traffic reports seems to come up occasionally here.
Of course, this all begs the question "What would you do with the info if you had it?", especially as respects the annoying but minor delays like sick passengers and BIE that will tie up a line for 15 minutes and then have residual delays of about 15 minutes as well.
By the time the info could be conveyed from the TA to the radio stations very few people would be substantially impacted.
Suppose I'm in my office at 6:15 and I hear that there's a BIE on the E train at 7th Avenue which has just been cleared. By the time I get to the 5th Avenue station to catch my train to Penn, chances are the entire incident will be transparent to me.
Obviously things like "Derailment causes no evening service on the X line" are meaningful and newsworthy.
Same thing goes for the commuter lines. It's really of no consequence to anyone to waste air time announcing "20 minute delays on the Podunk Branch". How would that change anyone's commute? Certainly, if there were some alternate service that could get you home sooner than the Podunk branch plus 20 minutes, it's an announcement worth having. But in the overwhelming number of cases, LIRR/MNRR/NJT plus 20 (or even 45) minutes is far better than any other public transit alternative.
CG
For some people it is worth it. Some people only take mass transit certain days and drive others. If they hear "delays on the Brunswick Line", they will probably choose to battle traffic on 270 rather than take a MARC train.
No, as long as the TA keeps to defining a "late" train in it's own way.
I saw something yesterday that made me laugh out loud:
A little girl, maybe 4 or 5 years old, and her father were transferring from one of the 8th Ave. IND lines to the F at W4. I was standing on the stairs between the mezzanine and the F platform. When they reached the top of the steps, the little girl began to whine, "No, Daddy, I don't wanna go on another train!" and proceeded to throw a major hissy-fit as they descended. The tears, the screams, going limp and being dragged -- the whole bit.
Dad: "Tell you what. I'll make a deal with ya. We get on one more train, and when we get out, we'll take a bus."
Nice try.
Kid: "No, I don't wanna go on another train! No! Waaaah!"
When I was that age, I would have had a tantrum about not being allowed to take another train. There really are different molds, I guess. :O)
ok so far i have #7, R, G, Franklin shuttle
any others out there?
thanks back to my passengers now!!
http://communities.msn.com/NYCTABVERoutes
http://www.ste-liz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://www.crotrainz.com/index.html
Check out these three sites. The first one has several NYC lines, but you need an MS passport. The second and third don't have many NYC routes, but they do have Glasgow, Vienna, Toronto, and several from London.
David
I got a WMATA Red Line route, e-mail me for details.
I have installed BVE and got it running. But how do I get the train out of the station? There seems to be a lack of instructions on how to accelerate and brake. I don't have a joystick so how do I get the keyboard to get the train moving?
HAHAAHAH qtrain... took me a minute too
its either
z - go faster, a - reduce speed,
/ - apply brake
> - release
OR like in r143
z = reduce brake and go vroom
a = apply brake and slow the mother down
up arrow puts the train into forward gear
good luck!
You have to press "F" first every time to put the train in foward!
That is only if you have your controls set in operation 2.
And "Q" sets the emergency brake if necessary
ok so i got the Q route... runs on the express track but wants me to stop at the locals... bet that will piss off the passengers when they have to hop to the platform :)
I changed the file to change that but the distances are still inaccurate. E-mail me if you want it.
Heh. Go into the RW route file with a text editor and change the 1's at the station stops to 0's and then you won't have to stop there or watch the "geese-o-meter" go offscale. Each route seems to have minor miscalculations - the D train run for example wants you to run up the dash and somehow let the geese off at all the local stops too. Getting familiar with the CSV and RW files and how they work will allow you to piece together your OWN routes when you get bored with operating. :)
My E line route (the one I'm still working on [and need help with]) doesn't have that problem. It'll just show you a sign marker for each station you pass. They're not even listed on the schedule.
As it should be ... I just started doing my FIRST route for BVE and ended up getting my own happy meat caught in a Freeobj(...) beyond my own limits ... once I get past my own insanity level here at work, plan to finish it and then might actually have some time to engage in some collaberation ... my email address above is valid, but way over the top busy at the moment ... if you can give me a week or so, drop me a line, tell me what you need, be happy to kick in where and if I can be of any use. I'm a HORRIBLE artist, and live way upstate. My last visit to da chitty was Kissmoose with some pals. Prior was nearly 10 years ago - last time I *lived* in town was 1975 ...
Question I have is where do you stop the train at the station, where is the marker? I keep getting indications that I pass the station and three buzzes. I guess I'm not opening the doors, how do you do that?
q train: youshould see a marker, most of the nyc rotes are 8/10 or the g has 10 opto and the shuttle too has 2 opto...
otherwise stop close to the end about 1" off the end :)
hope that helps...
I don't have any NYC subway routes yet but I'd like some. I have no idea on how to operate the Japanese trains, the two routes that came with BVE when I downloaded it. I have gotten the trains to move but keep getting an "angry face" and chimes and bells, not to mention getting a commuter train into EMG and having no way to get it out.
The "grumpies" would be your "geeseometer" and yes, geese are SUPPOSED to be unhappy if you operate properly. :)
For the Nip routes, you'll see a little orange and white DIAMOND on a pole, usually on the wayside opposite the platform at the stop point. That's the DEFAULT stop point in BVE, the way it's done on the home islands in Nihon. For NYC subway routes, most people place the car markers on the wall just like the real thing. The "stop markers" can be made invisible in BVE (those diamonds on poles) so you can use something ELSE as the stop marker ... does this help?
OK I figured the diamond was the stop marker. I don't know what the three buzzes are though. It's abit different because you don't get door opening/closing sounds like on Mechanik.
Three buzzes is the conductors way of saying, "I pointed, did not see board, I ain't opening this witch until you put me on the board" ... means you overshot the platform. Go into the kitchen, get a plastic cup, fill it to the brim with grim and get ready for counseling. :)
Or just back up (press the down arrow 2 times then apply power) until you get it right.
Hit F3 and they'll leave you alone. That meter depends on the load set at each station. If you have none, it's ALWAYS green. If it's at full load, it's gonna get angry real easy.
Heh. Guess it's a throwback to my days in the 1970's on the railroad. Don't want no sleeping geese and the more you can make them steam, the more it felt like a day at work. Heh. In fact, I noticed that if I apply and brake a couple of times, I can pitch the old geese-o-meter right off the scale on the Franklin shuttle route. :)
The geese don't like fast, hard braking either.
Just like the real thing. Just remember - there's a reason why the shoe wood goes diagonally inside the cab to keep the geese from kicking it in after you splatter them on the storm door. :)
hey Northman (or anyone) can you tell me how to install that damn Q route and B route and all those other routes from the communities site? or where you got the Q route
Been a while. If I remember correctly, those were just a ZIP file containing all the files without "folder structure" so what I did was create a "NYCTA-Q" folder under \bve\railway\object folder and unzipped them to there, then moved the RW file to the ROUTE folder so it would appear on the list. All of those were done in a way that departs from what many other authors did, a nice self-extractor that put everything in place. For those routes, you DO have to sing for your supper to get everything moved.
We're not allowed to have games on our "work machines" or any other unauthorized stuff (security reasons) so I can't drop down and have a look since they're on my "home machine" ... but that's what I remember and just went and looked at a CDROM where those are stored.
Thanks a lot I'll go try that. Boy , hopefully Ill also get unlazy and create my own route.
I've still got one I was working on - got a bit busy and hope to get back to it this weekend ... plenty of folks working on MORE BVE routes too. We were all wondering how many of us BVE'ers were going to go over the fence and do MSTS routes - most who have tried are now back on the BVE train ...
one more question. I have 2 routes installed on BVE 2. SOmetimes the game stops and says invalid something Mainloop, i have to press contuinue to go and it keeps popping up, especially by the markers to stop, how do i fix that?
Any such errors indicate that files are missing or invalid. The authors of those routes used LONG filenames and if the Zips were unzipped in DOS mode, the filenames might have been unwittingly changed or don't match the filenames that the RW files are looking for.
Generally bad filenames will get an error prior to the route coming up while it's in "rendering" mode ... if it comes up and you get that, something's wrong with the route file as far as what's being called. I *did* get the routes working but it DID take some editing of the route files. That's why I find it amusing that the MSN site is going whole hog MSTS ... BVE is a LOT easier to write for and that has me wondering how routes for MSTS are going to turn out given the reality.
I'm near the end of th night on this end, but drop me an email if you continue having troubles - will see about zipping up my RW files for you so you can unpack them. I have those working on my home box but they didn't work straight out of the download ... they still have some problems but none of them require tooting for a car inspector. :)
Remember what Microsoft did with their Windows Media Player and Winamp? All of a sudden Winamp skins can be used in Windows Media Player. I wouldn't be suprised if tomorrow BVE routes will load and run in MSTS.
That would be amusing to hear ... but since this ain't Microsoft's train sim - they subcontracted it to the JUKU kids (who will find their stock options and their company soon swallowed WHOLE) it's possible it won't happen. I *have* tried MSTS (never got it to work on my machine) at friends' places and what's amusing is once they tried BVE, they got gigabytes of disk space back upon removing MSTS. :)
Can't wait to see what Mackoy has up his sleeve - rumors on the islands is that BVE 3 should be done by March and will come with some VERY pleasant surprises - even more major than the "2" version compared to "1" ... but no ammeter ...
That whole "batch" of files where you got that line, suck. No offense but, it's not really much work put into that and very buggy and not the least accurate.
Up arrow down arrow is your reverser in mode 1 ...
OK thanks!
The world of Subway Surfing suffered a major setback early on New Years Day. A rising star in the sport, Ariel Briones, was riding on the roof of a northbound train at Clinton Washington Station when he fell off and into the path of a southbound A train. He did not survive the cut.
...and here we see this week's darwin award being placed next to his tombstone. Ah yes, the darwin award, a prize cherished by subway surfers around the globe. And not to be left out, the city will be rewarded with a lawsuit from the deceases' parents for untold millions.
If this dumbass was riding on the top of a speeding train then why is the MTA being sued? And why does the city have to pay for someones idiotic acts. That's why kids are running wild because stupid parents mean stupid kids. And if that was my child(which I know it won't be because she'll be too lazy to do so with my DNA)I wouldn't sue because I'll know it would be her fault.
if that was my child...I wouldn't sue because I'll know it would be her fault.
How 'bout when the fifteenth lawyer tells you that you'll get 1.3 mil (and he'll get 2/3 mil)? 20 years ago the parent of a kid who climbed onto the roof of a freight car and fried himself on Conrail's catenary in Philly got 1 mil because there wasn't a fence around the railroad. Two years later, when there WAS a fence, a kid jumped onto the roof of a freight car from a street bridge over the tracks and fried himself when he grabbed the catenary. His parent got a mil. It doesn't have to make sense, it just happens.
Like the woman who got $10 mil after taking Phen-Fen (or Fen-Phen, whatever) after her own physician testified that she wasn't injured. She got a jury of HER peers, not ours.
Sorry to contribute to a thread rapidly going off-topic, but...
What we need is something like the British system: The loser in a civil lawsuit has to pay the court costs and attorney's fees of the winner. Corporations and public agencies are therefore much less inclined to settle, and the trial lawyers tend to stick to cases that actually are legitimate.
But you'll never see that here, because the only regulation lawyers face in this country comes from (drumroll, please...) more lawyers, whether they be in the Bar Association, or politicians in the local, state or national government. It's the only profession that essentially has no external oversight whatsoever.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yo David....why can't I sue for pain and suffering if my buddies told me the car i had to inspect and repair was a victim of retarded dead dummy pathological remains splat? CI Peter
Why can't they ever get railfans on juries?
Cause there's no storm doors in court rooms. (sorry, couldn't resist).
I'm a railfan, empanel me, I FIND FOR THE DEFENDANT!
I'm a railfan, empanel me, I FIND FOR THE DEFENDANT!
The first jury on which I served found for the defendant.
Well, of course they should sue.
I mean, did the MTA install a 36 foot high electric barbed wire fence all around the entire ROW ov every single line in the system?
Were there signs (written in English, Spanish, 6 dialects of Chinese, Croatian, Ukrainian, Farsi, Tagalog, Sanskrit, Urdu, Latin, Haitian Creole, Morse code, semaphore, Braille, Esperanto, Vulcan, Klingon, hieroglyphics and Neanderthal grunt language) warning people that they might fall off the train and die?
Was there another sign (written in English, Spanish, 6 dialects of Chinese, Croatian, Ukrainian, Farsi, Tagalog, Sanskrit, Urdu, Latin, Haitian Creole, Morse code, semaphore, Braille, Esperanto, Vulcan, Klingon, hieroglyphics and Neanderthal grunt language) warning about the dangers of trying to scale an electric barbed wire fence?
If not, then it isn't the kid's fault. It's entirely the MTA's fault. Suppose he was a Neanderthal just thawed from a 50,000 year old block of ice? How would he know about the dangers of trains, unless there was a warning sign printed in Neanderthal? Suppose it was Dr. Spock? Sure, he's smart as hell, but how can you expect him to know any arbirtary earthling language? Same for Worf - isn't it unreasonable to expect extraterrestrial visitors to both understand the danger of NYCT trains AND speak English? What about escaped ocelots and peacocks? Ocelots are people too, and deserve a sign in their own language. And dolphins? If the subway system were flooded someday, how would the dolphins know to keep clear of the ROW? You know, with all this talk about equal rights for all, has anyone mentioned the rights of Neanderthals, dolphins or Klingons?
Maybe this kid was told to do this as an extra credit assignment by his teacher. Sue the teacher too - guilty until proven innocent. Send her to a military tribunal.
Man, what came over me??
It's a well known fact that Spock had trouble navigating San Francisco's transit system (Star Trek IV). He got on and off a bus, and asked Kirk, "What does he mean by, exact change?"
You mean MR. Spock. DR. Spock is a real person who would understand the english signs.
-Hank
Ah yes, you're right. Mr. not Dr.
Which brings me to another point - You know you're a true railfan (or a Trekkie parent, perhaps), when you can distinguish at a moment's notice between Dr. and Mr. Spock.
Well, here we go again. A subway thread that's going askew. Oh well, what the hell.
There's a belief in this country that if you suffer a loss, someone else must be to blame. There must be someone to sue. There must be someone to make me whole.
One only has to look to the events of 9/11 to see this being taken to its absurd conclusion. For all intents and purposes, 9/11 was an act of Mass-Murder, a crime. Hundreds of millions of dollars were raised through charities for the families of the victims. Yet the government has taken the unpresendented step to try to make the families whole. Taken to its logical conclusion, will the government now go back and pay the families of Oklahoma City? Will the government now embark on a policy that all crime victims are paid by the governemnt?
Getting back to your question, the lawyers only have to do one of two things:
Convince a jury that the TA did not do all it could to stop a reasonable person from riding on the roof of a subway train. (remember, this is part of the culture in some South American countries)
Or simply play on the sympathy of a jury and convince them that the family suffered a great loss and a settlement would mean much to the family and the TA would never feel it. In short, it has very little to do witht he idiocy of the original act.
Taken to its logical conclusion, will the government now go back and pay the families of Oklahoma City?
the families of Oklahoma City are pissed because they didn't get the government bonanza.
I just want to add that I was and still am in favor of payments for police, fire and other emergency personnel who risked and lost their lives. However, as tragic as the other lost lives were, why do they suddenly become elligable for a government windfall when the family mugging victtim, just as dead, gets nothing?
TD: what about us??????? If you trolley a trainset out of the barn and the big bug hangs you up......you may fry (I have learned to check for movement.) WE risk life and limb everyday as part of our work and not listed as 'emergency personnel.' I have ideas for turnstile jumpers. CI Peter
Part of Tier IV pension is life insurance. 2X your annual salary whether it was job related or not. Of course your family can always sue the TA and the maker of the trolley system - they may even be able to sue Con Ed. and the NY Power Authority.
However, as tragic as the other lost lives were, why do they suddenly become eligible for a government windfall when the family mugging victim, just as dead, gets nothing?
Beats the heck out of me.
I, for one, would like to see a limitation to state/municipal liability specifically for trespass onto property not designated for passenger use. Specifically, you lose your right to sue.
Of couse, I don't always get what I would like to see.
Injuries sustained during the committing of a crime -like trespass - should not be compensated. If you are fleeing from the police and your getaway car crashes into a wall, too bad for you. Yet, only in the good old USA, the crook will SUE! I do not get it, but then, who makes the laws? Yep, the lawyers.
Many crime victims are given money by state and federal governments, it's called the crime victims board. It's uaully not in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, but it's a little bit.
-Hank
Yes some of the families of victims (not the rescuers families) are upset with $Million+ settlements. It's not a matter of being made whole any more - it's become a winning lottery ticket.
Why sue for idiocy?
Because you can get $ for it
What has ever happened to common sense. Don't these idiots realize that it is dangerous to ride on the roof of a subway car? There are many places throughout the system where there is no room for someone to stand on top of a subway car. This is not the first time I've neard of someone getting killed because of subway "surfing", and I'm sure it won't be the last time I hear of someone getting killed because of subway "surfing".
#3 West End Jeff
What has ever happened to common sense. Don't these idiots realize that it is dangerous to ride on the roof of a subway car? There are many places throughout the system where there is no room for someone to stand on top of a subway car. This is not the first time I've heard of someone getting killed because of subway "surfing", and I'm sure it won't be the last time I hear of someone getting killed because of subway "surfing".
#3 West End Jeff
As a railfan who also is an attorney, I positively dread entering threads that have to do with people killed because they crossed, tresspassing, or otherwise did something stupid around train lines. Someone will speculate that the parents or other heirs will sue, others will talk about the case as if the railroad is already being sued, and then the whole thing typically descends into a bashing of lawyers and the legal system.
1) As railfans, afficionados of a very technical and intricate industry, we are unusually sensitive to how the media and Hollywood can intentionally or unintentionally misdiscribe or even twist the perception of railways, transit, etcetera. We can all cite examples where either a local news outlet or a movie "got it wrong." And even with all that knowledge about the media not being a wholly reliable source, many of us still accept blindly as typical or ordinary the lawsuit horror stories that the media latches onto because they make good copy.
2) Contrary to the comment someone made, to the effect that if the MTA hired lawyers to sue trespassers and their heirs there would be fewer attorneys to sue the MTA, there are relatively few attorneys who practice in the litigation area. MANY people who get a law degree never bother to get their law license at all (lots more than study medicine or architecture or such but don't get the license) and instead use their legal training to do business transactions for themselves or a company they own or manage. Many who do get law licenses end up doing very little court work, criminal or civil, and mainly do wills, contracts, land transactions, etcetera. Of those who do practice in litigation, many serve as defense counsel (paid by the insurance companies). In the field I work in, I haven't been within a mile of a lawsuit, or any other court case, in over four years.
3) When I was working for a firm that did litigation, it was only a small part of our case load BECAUSE IT WAS NOT PARTICULARLY LUCRATIVE. Think about it: if suing someone were the guaranteed "ka-ching!" victory that popular culture makes it out to be, we would have done that all the time instead of working mostly on simple bankruptcies, wills and trusts for people whose biggest asset was their house, and criminal defense in minor drug possession cases. Of the lawsuits we took on, we probably lost more cases than we won, and that was after the firm owner had debated, researched, and generally agonized over whether to accept the case in the first place.
4) While it's true that filing a lawsuit is easy, whether or not one has a lawyer -- the really bizarre "aliens and George Bush ate my brain!" suits tend to be pro se -- winning is not the guaranteed win that it's popularly made out to me, not by a damned long shot.
(a) "In 49% of [civil] jury trial cases, the jury found in favor of the plaintiff and awarded in the 12 month period an estimated $2.4 billion in compensatory and punitive damages. The median total award for a plaintiff winner was $35,000. Juries awarded punitive damage awards in 212 cases with a plaintiff winner that totaled over $545 million. The median punitive damage award to plaintiff winners was $50,000." http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/civil.htm
(b)"Plaintiffs won in 48% of tort trial cases. Plaintiffs were more likely to win in tort trials decided by a judge (57%) than a jury (48%). Plaintiffs won in 58% of automobile accident trials, 57% of intentional tort trials, and 23% of medical malpractice trials.
The median final award to plaintiff winners in tort trials during 1996 was about $31,000. Seventeen percent of final awards exceeded $250,000 and 6% were $1 million or more." http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ttvlc96.htm
(c) "Despite all of the hoopla about sympathetic juries, plaintiffs chances of winning a recovery in a products liability lawsuit hover at around 50% or less." http://www.productslaw.com/masstort.html
I appreciate your input, from the POV of a practising lawyer. I admit, I'm usually one of the first to jump on the lawyer/politician/whatever bashing bandwagon.
But what troubles me is that even though victory is far from assured (though a 45-50% chance of a median decision of $30-50,000 is far from penauts), agencies like the MTA have to go out and spend money to defend themselves against lawsuits of all sorts.
To give a related example, my cousin struck and killed a girl crossing a street(and seriously injured another). He has been sued by the families of the victims, for a sum in the millions of dollars. Since it's an ongoing case, I don't know if I should divulge too many details, but it was a wide street (something like Queens Blvd, near an intersection).
What was he doing? He was following traffic regulations, according to eyewitness reports. He was not speeding (eyewitness reports and measurements of skid marks confirm this). He did not cross a double line, and was not weaving between lanes. He did not go through a red light (it was green). He was not talking on a phone or arguing with someone in the back seat. He was not under the influence of alcohol (was tested for such; if he had refused it would be a default DWI and automatic arrest and slammer time). Onlookers and the police report stated that the victims ran across the street, against a red light, and that my cousin was not at fault, and that there was probably no way a collision could have been avoided; he could have been any of us, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The car was later tested by the police for mechanical deficiencies and none were found. There are various other suspicious facts about the victims (they were underage, but carrying fake ID's in an area with many nightclubs and bars; I leave speculation to the reader).
But now my cousin and his family have to go through this grief, and have to shell out money for lawyers to defend him against this lawsuit. The suit is an amount in the millions, though even if they win it would most likely be a fraction of that (but even still, $100,000 or $200,000 is a pretty hefty chunk to have to pay out).
And they have a chance of winning, if the survivor or the family of the deceased turns on enough histrionics on the witness stand. Or they might lose, in which case my cousin still loses the time and money spent on the trial, and has to relive this horrible event over and over again in court.
>>> But now my cousin and his family have to go through this grief, and have to shell out money for lawyers to defend him against this lawsuit <<<
When a person kills someone, even if it was not his fault, he can expect some disruption of his life. Why isn't his insurance company paying for the defense?
>>> And they have a chance of winning, if the survivor or the family of the deceased turns on enough histrionics on the witness stand. <<<
Is that the kind of thing that would influence you as a juror? If not, why do you think it will sway the majority of a jury hearing that case?
Tom
>>Why isn't his insurance company paying for the defense? <<
I assume they will, though their obligation is limited.
>>Is that the kind of thing that would influence you as a juror? If not, why do you think it will sway the majority of a jury hearing that case? <<
Me? Probably not (I'd certainly hope not). But other people, yeah!
">>Why isn't his insurance company paying for the defense? <<
I assume they will, though their obligation is limited. "
Actually, in almost all cases in New York, the duty to defend is unlimited for an insurer -- regardless of the limit on the policy. If your cousin is being told anything else by the insurance company, you should get an outside opinion.
CG
Just to expand on the point a bit further, insurance companies who write automobile liability coverage have two separate obligations, the obligation to provide the insured with legal representation and the obligation to pay damages for which the insured is found liable. All of the deductibles and limits of coverage that you see on the first page of a policy relate to paying damages, not to paying for the lawyer. As for limits on the obligation to defend, the lawsuit has to be about you (or other named drivers) driving a car or someone driving your car with your permission and, I believe, you have to have given the insurance company prompt notice of the incident.
Thanks for the info - perhaps something got mixed up in my communications.
In any event, he still has to sit through court hearings and so on for something that has already been determined not to be his fault (and likely couldn't have avoided in any way), and stands some chance (how much, I don't know) of having to make a payout.
And even if the insurance will cover the payout he has to make, do you have any guess as to whose money goes out to pay that? Me and you, and millions of other schmucks who weren't even there, and didn't even know what is going on, through the auto insurance we pay every year. The whole thing just makes me sick...
>>> he still has to sit through court hearings and so on for something that has already been determined not to be his fault <<<
When you say it has already been determined that the accident was not his fault, who made that determination? The investigating officers? Are they infallible? Suppose the investigating officers had decided that your cousin was at fault and therefore the death was manslaughter. Do you think your cousin would waive having to sit through the court hearings for the state to prove it was manslaughter and just report to jail to begin serving a sentence?
If you can understand why your cousin would want to go to court even though the investigating officers found he was at fault, then you should be able to understand why the relatives of the dead and injured children want their day in court even though the investigating officer found that your cousin was not at fault.
It is a fact of life that if you kill someone, whether you are an individual or the TA, and whether you are at fault or not, you will be involved in litigation.
Tom
Is that the kind of thing that would influence you as a juror? If not, why do you think it will sway the majority of a jury hearing that case?
Tom, juries are stupid. There are well-documented psychological research (e.g. look under the works of Stanley Milgram who worked at Yale in the '50s) which suggests that in fact people who are put into a social situation (defined as a situation under which they have to interact with other human beings), then people can make irrational decisions subconsciously in order to make themselves look socially acceptable. A simple example is let's say we were doing a shout-out quiz in class and you were not 100% sure of your answer, but the brightest kid in the class yells out an answer which is different to yours. Then the second brighest kid does the same. Now, how sure are you about your answer? Which answer would you pick?
The American legal system (in comparison to the British) had made great strides in a process called "jury selection" in which jurors who could potentially be biased (due either to previous knowledge of the case or certain affliations) are not permitted to serve. For example, in a police shooting case, no one who are a police officer or a relative of one are allowed to serve. In Britain, they would still be allowed to serve as under the British justice system juries are still selected "randomly". Unfortunately, such selection processes does not include general categories such as say in a Transit Authority v.s. relatives case, they do not exclude anyone who is likely to sympathize with the families of the deceased. That's probably because it would be near-impossible to do this and to guarentee the relatives a "fair" trial.
Conclusion: juries are stupid. It's best not to get involved in a criminal trial. As for transit authorities, they should be given immunity to prosecution.
Lexcie (B.A. Psychol, Cantab, 2000)
Conclusion: juries are stupid. It's best not to get involved in a criminal trial.
BZZZT! Wrong conclusion. Some juries are stupid, that's true, but I don't think it's anything approaching a valid assessment overall. I have served on juries several times in my life, and I can only think of one case where there were a couple of people on the jury who were influenced by anything other than the facts of the case. That particular trial, in which I was the jury foreman, came dangerously close to a hung jury, deadlocked 10-2. After an additional day of deliberation, during which I kept the discussion focused on the issues raised by one of the dissenting jurors, that juror concluded that their original opinion was incorrect, and the jury was then 11-1. Another 30 minutes of discussion and we had a unanimous verdict.
I've also been the defendant in a case a few years back, involving a mentally ill neighbor who made some ludicrous accusations and convinced a couple of her friends to be her witnesses. One of the witnesses described the alleged incident in great detail, including minor details about the vehicle I was supposedly driving at the time that I supposedly tried to run her over. Imagine her surprise when my lawyer advised the judge and jury that the vehicle described was the one I had sold a month before the alleged incident. Needless to say, the jury was out of the courtroom for less than ten minutes - just long enough to vote, sign the paper attesting to their verdict, and return. So from that perspective too I have a great deal of faith in the American system of justice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
close to a hung jury, deadlocked 10-2. After an additional day of deliberation, during which I kept the discussion focused on the issues raised by one of the dissenting jurors, that juror concluded that their original opinion was incorrect, and the jury was then 11-1.
That's the precise issue. Did you count the number of people who were for and against on the initial vote? The fact is, usually after delibration, the minority party sccumb to the majority party. This does not necessarily mean justice is served, especially where the facts of the case are not clear. Statistics show that the initial vote (as jurors enter the room) is at least a 95% confident predictor of the final unianimous verdict.
I have more confidence in the US system of justice than many other, but you only need to look at some of the anti-trust cases to realize not only are there no absolute right and wrong, anyone who gets mixed up with the DoJ loses. "Justice" is really a pointless concept invented by self-rightous humans...
Did you count the number of people who were for and against on the initial vote?
Yes, I did... the vote was 7-5 in the opposite direction of the final verdict. This was after about an hour of discussion, identifying the salient points of the case. (Deliberations lasted three plus days.)
Reginald Rose's play Twelve Angry Men deals with this issue. It's been made into a movie twice - 1957, starring Henry Fonda, and 1997, starring George C. Scott. I have recently seen a high school production of the play (politically corrected as "Twelve Angry Persons") and Jr. received the 1997 version on VHS as a Chanukah gift, although we haven't watched it yet. And yes, it's on topic too - an elevated train figures prominently in the jurors' deliberations.
Your point about anti-trust cases (and other non-criminal cases in general) is well taken. My experience as a juror is limited to criminal cases.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"'Justice' is really a pointless concept invented by self-rightous humans..."
Your incite is truly remarkable.
Did you mean Incite or Insight--Hmmm.
As much as I would like to claim that it was a deliberate play on words, I suppose it was more of a Freudian slip.
>>> juries are stupid <<<
Juries are no more stupid than the general population they are drawn from.
>>> A simple example is let's say we were doing a shout-out quiz in class and you were not 100% sure of your answer, but the brightest kid in the class yells out an answer which is different to yours. Then the second brighest kid does the same. Now, how sure are you about your answer? Which answer would you pick? <<<
Due to the deliberative process that juries go through it is not quite like a shout-out quiz. Since a jury is trying to find some "objective truth" based on the information presented to all of them, it is not surprising that a minority may be swayed into changing their opinion of what that truth is after discussing that information among themselves.
>>> in a police shooting case, no one who are a police officer or a relative of one are allowed to serve. ... such selection processes does not include general categories such as say in a Transit Authority v.s. relatives case, they do not exclude anyone who is likely to sympathize with the families of the deceased. <<<
There is no rule in the American system excluding police officers or their relatives. Attorneys may challenge the objectivity of persons in those categories, and therefore reject them from service. In a case involving the TA, the same process would be used to challenge anyone who worked for the TA, or was related to someone who worked for the TA. Challenges to those who had ever filed a claim against the TA or their relatives or even anyone who had ever been close to anyone injured on the subway would also be considered in the same way.
>>> As for transit authorities, they should be given immunity to prosecution. <<<
Prosecution implies criminal charges. Most people would not want transit authorities or anyone else placed above the law and granted immunity for any criminal acts they may do. In the civil area, if the TA were immune from damages for negligence it would certainly be easier to operate the subways. The C/R would no longer have to check to see that no one was caught in closing doors, and the T/O would no longer have to make sure he stopped with all doors on the platform. No one would have to replace burnt out lights in stations or remove banana peels from the stairways.
If you believe the extensive safety rules for operating the subways came from someone's altruistic belief of what is the right thing to do rather than the wish to avoid liability, I would like to show you this wonderful bridge connecting Manhattan and Brooklyn which happens to be for sale. :-)
Tom
"Prosecution implies criminal charges. Most people would not want transit authorities or anyone else placed above the law and
granted immunity for any criminal acts they may do."
Well stated.
" In the civil area, if the TA were immune from damages for negligence it
would certainly be easier to operate the subways. The C/R would no longer have to check to see that no one was caught in
closing doors, and the T/O would no longer have to make sure he stopped with all doors on the platform. No one would have
to replace burnt out lights in stations or remove banana peels from the stairways. "
There is another way to handle it. Offer the TA immunity from lawsuits, but set up a claim fund. If you're injured through a screw-up of a TA employee, you can't sue the TA, but you can file a claim through the fund. Of course, the "devil is in the details" on accomplishing this.
>>> Offer the TA immunity from lawsuits, but set up a claim fund. If you're injured through a screw-up of a TA employee, you can't sue the TA, but you can file a claim through the fund. <<<
Why should the TA get that sort of exemption from lawsuits and not other transportation entities such as the airlines or Greyhound, or even school bus operators? And who is the one who will evaluate the value of the claim? What if you are not happy with that decision? What you are suggesting sounds similar to the Workers Compensation system, but WC covers all injuries on the job whether caused by the employer or not, and still has substantial litigation. I do not think you could transfer that type of compensation system to customers of a transportation system.
Tom
Your dealings with the federal govt (to an extent) work that way. For example, I served as a disaster response officer on a medical team. If I committed malpractice in that specific role, you could not sue me, and you could not sue the govt., but you could file a claim for losses and expenses.
Your skepticism about total immunity from lawsuits is well-founded, however.
"Why should the TA get that sort of exemption from lawsuits and not other transportation entities such as the airlines or
Greyhound, or even school bus operators?"
Because these other operators are profit-making businesses. If one of your goals is to make a profit, the threat of litigation is important to keep your eye on safety. The TA, in my view, is more like a critical govt. -un utility (esp. in New York!).
Of course, Queens Surface Corp. and Command Bus etc. are profit-making businesses too - so I concede there are a lot of (important) details I am obviously not dealing with here in this post.
" And who is the one who will evaluate the value of the claim? What if you are not happy with that decision?"
What if you are not happy with a jury's decision? I don't see a professional claims examiner or claims board being irherently inferior to a courtroom, per se.
It should be pointed out that the TA already has some procedural advantages over the potential private defendant. In most cases, the plaintiffs have only 90 days to file a notice of claim. The TA then gets to call them in and interogate them, even if no suit has yet been started. The statute of limitations for a negligence suit against the TA is 15 months, IIRC.
>>> What if you are not happy with a jury's decision? I don't see a professional claims examiner or claims board being irherently inferior to a courtroom, per se. <<<
If you are not happy with a jury's decision because the facts are against you, you live with it. If there was a problem with the way the trial was conducted you appeal. The courts are the institution in our society for dispute resolution. They have evolved to protect the rights of litigants by providing neutral persons to determine disputes regarding facts and the law and specific rules of evidence and procedure to protect due process. If a claims examiner is employed by the TA to review claims, how long do you think he would last if the TA did not like his decisions?
In California, and I believe most states, a person cannot sue a governmental agency, including the MTA, the police, the fire department, the sanitation department, schools, and where municipally owned, the electric company without first filing a claim with the agency. There is a limited time to file the claim, and the agency has a limited time to respond. If the agency fails to respond, the claim is deemed denied. If the claim is denied, the person can then file suit. As a practical matter, claims for an inflated amount are filed before a thorough investigation has been undertaken (no one wants to guess too low), virtually all of the claims are promptly denied, and a lawsuit is filed.
Tom
Just so you know the "juice" in NYS, any "Claim" must be first filed with a separate court, the NYS "Court of Claims" which is given the responsibility of GRANTING PERMISSION to sue the state. If you can't convince the court of claims that you have an adjudicatable claim, it gets quashed right there. For employees of the state, making a claim against the state for misconduct, "Article 78, exceeding authority" or any other such similar actions, if the COC blows you off, you're done. Same for many other litigants.
New York may have the finest crafted laws, but it also has the most "juice" ... and the Electric companies are protected by the "Public Service Commission" (where I used to work prior to what I do now with the software company) which ensures that NOBODY gets over. They once ruled the subways ... but NYC formed a Board of Transportation to cut those turkeys loose. PSC, just for the historical, was the geniuses behind how the "second system" unfolded as well as the IRT and restrictions on the BRT ... they also take care of your phone service to this day. 'nuff said. :)
Thus defeating the purpose of a claims examiner.
It is my opinion that even if a lawsuit is filed, the right to sue after a claim has been denied should be limited in the amount of $$ recoverable. I say this in a very simplified way; obviously its execution could not be simple.
"It is my opinion that even if a lawsuit is filed, the right to sue after a claim has been denied should be limited in the amount of $$
recoverable."
By your proposal, all the MTA (or whoever else would be protected by such a law) would have to do to limit their liability is refuse a claim. If that were the case, what would they have to lose by refusing a claim? Or, to put it the other way, why would they ever admit a claim larger than the limit amount?!? (And what would you propose the limit amount to be?)
The fact that a person or organization WHO IS POTENTIALLY LIABLE TO PAY A CLAIM rejects it doesn't disprove the claim -- not everyone is willing to admit they were wrong even if they know internally that they were wrong, especially if that comes with a price tag.
I agree with you; what I am saying (and it might not have been clear) is that the MTA culd be liable for a larger award they reject the claim first and then lose, but this award should still be subject to a cap.
For example, MTA might unjustifiably reject a $100,000 claim. If it goes to trial, the cap might be, say, $500,000, instead of allowing a jury to award a lot more.
In this way, MTA is not motivated to reject every claim.
"I agree with you; what I am saying (and it might not have been clear) is that the MTA culd be liable for a larger award they reject the claim first and then lose, but this award should still be subject to a cap."
That makes a LOT more sense than what I thought you were saying at first.
Even after my misspellings and screwed up punctuation...
Juries are no more stupid than the general population they are drawn from.
Your point? :^)
If you believe the extensive safety rules for operating the subways came from someone's altruistic belief of what is the right thing to do rather than the wish to avoid liability, I would like to show you this wonderful bridge connecting Manhattan and Brooklyn which happens to be for sale. :-)
I don't mean to speak for Lexcie, but you couldn't pay me to take the Manhattan Bridge!!
He said a wonderful bridge. He must have some other bridge in mind.
Juries are no more stupid than the general population they are drawn from.
Well they can't be. Nobody can be more stupid than the general population.
As my father is fond of pointing out, "The average is very low."
For example, in a police shooting case, no one who are a police officer or a relative of one are allowed to serve. In Britain, they would still be allowed to serve as under the British justice system juries are still selected "randomly".
WRONG. In Britain, questions are asked of jurors about such conflicts of interest before they sit. Anyone who fails to declare any such matter would be liable to prosecution for "Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice". Yes, the initial calling to the pool of jurors (they are called for a period of time, not for a specific case) is random, but it is checked afterwards. This way you don't get people discriminated against in serving for juries.
The only exceptions I know of for jury service are:
- the mentally or physically infirm
- legal professionals and any employee of the Lord Chancellor's Department (including support staff &c)
- the spouse of legal professionals or any employee of the Lord Chancellor's Department
- sitting MPs
Gidday Mate...ears a bite for you: New York State justice system requires all cases brought into State Supreme Court to be examined by a 'Grand Jury' conveined by law. What takes place is a presentment by the prosecutor, a demonstration of the evidence along with statements by participating law enforcement officials and corroborating witnesses AND the possible participation of defendents. Since the court does NOT determine the outcome of the case, exceptions of participating jurors are few. We have come a long way since 1776. Car Inspector Peter, NYC MTA CED
Has the TA actually SUCCESSFULLY sued the relatives of someone who was killed trespassing? I realize that the person may be wrong, and that the TA is not liable, but I think suing people who just lost a loved one in such a tragic way is why the euphemism "COLD" was invented.
And what would be the point in most cases? The suit wouldn't reach the property of the relatives, only the property of the decedent. I don't know it for a fact; but I would bet money that most subway surfers die judgment proof, i.e. without the proverbial pot to piss in.
Subway surfers die as a contribution to their sport just like unsupervised free fall parachuting. Isn't it enough that they get a memorial spray painted on some slumlords wall??? TD will tell you how his crew has to clean up the pathological biohazards ('Right To Know' training) but have a little pity on us guys finding an eyeball on a tread brake unit. CI Peter
That would tend to ruin your appetite for a few days, unless you were a forensic pathologist and saw this kind of thing on a daily basis.
Still, going to places where you have no business going and doing things that could get you killed is not the sort of activity that makes me feel any sorrow, especially when you are old enough to know better.
That would tend to ruin your appetite for a few days, unless you were a forensic pathologist and saw this kind of thing on a daily basis.
Or unless you're a devotee of rotten.com
Come to think of it, the people behind that site might be railfans (of a sort); lately they've been running a number of man vs. train pictures.
Those pics are fakes like the one with the head stuck between carbody and platform. My crew was breakin chops because I had undercar on the lead R142 after a jumper. How do you inspect airlines and valves: spray, wait for bubbles and wipe. 'Here's lookin at yah.' CI Peter
Works for gas grilles too. Hope you already came to the job knowing that trick and didn't require Special High Intensity Training. Bustini, bustini ...
When I was working for a firm that did litigation, it was only a small part of our case load BECAUSE IT WAS NOT PARTICULARLY LUCRATIVE. Think about it: if suing someone were the guaranteed "ka-ching!" victory that popular culture makes it out to be, we would have done that all the time instead of working mostly on simple bankruptcies, wills and trusts for people whose biggest asset was their house, and criminal defense in minor drug possession cases. Of the lawsuits we took on, we probably lost more cases than we won, and that was after the firm owner had debated, researched, and generally agonized over whether to accept the case in the first place.
The fact that personal injury litigation may not always be lucrative does not mean that there aren't tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of lawyers scuffling for a piece of the pie. Law school has become a natural extension of liberal arts college and a major draw for nontechnical types who lack the skills to get jobs in the real world. As a result, there is a gross oversupply of lawyers, many of whom have to struggle mightily to make even a lower-middle-class living. They'll eagerly take on dubious personal injury cases simply because there isn't enough other legal work to keep them busy. And, therefore, the survivors of subway surfers have no trouble finding legal eagles to handle their cases.
We non-technical types find our world just as real as you do yours.
Subway Surfer? You mean Jackass, don't you? R.I.P.
Eric D. Smith
Subway surfer - Jackass- same difference.
Makes you wonder when and who will file the first lawsuit against the TA?
This may sound nasty and cruel, but if the rising star didn't have a chance to impregnate, the genes will not be passed on for another generation.
I guess he just didn’t listen when mother and dad warned him of the dangers of doing such things - and the consequences.
The sad part is a young life was lost, and before long, nobody will even remember who he was.
Jim Kramer
"Makes you wonder when and who will file the first lawsuit against the TA?"
The TA didn't have warning signs on the end bonnets and a counselor posted nearby to talk the boy into riding in the car as opposed to on top of it.
Sorry, I don't feel sorry for him.
Bill "Newkirk"
Gee, maybe this is why we stopped putting ladders on the end of train cars when they go underground!
Well, he found a way to "stand clear of the closing doors," too bad he couldn't "lay clear of the speeding I-Beam!"
Some people are just too stupid to live. Apparently...
How do we submit this to the Darwin Awards?
JR
Bill and others:
My remark about the lawsuit was 'tongue in cheek'. No way do I feel anyone should even entertain a lawsuit. That should be apparent by the second line of my reply.
Secondly, feeling sorry about the loss of such a young person, while trying such an irresponsible act, is not a crime.
Compassion, sir, is one of the traits what makes us human beings.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
"Compassion, sir, is one of the traits what makes us human beings."
Along with opposing thumbs (which this guy likely had) and common sense (which this guy obviously lacked).
In all seriousness, these incidents are extremely costly to the TA and the City in general. Think about the costs for:
1) The train crew, testing and days off due to stress.
2) The other TA employees who hae to investigate the incident, inspect the equipment or maintain service around it.
3) The cleaning of the train.
4) The cost of police and EMS.
5) The cost of the medical examiner.
Perhaps the City and the TA should sue the estate of this young man for the expenses related tot he above. Perhaps the train operator can sue privately for damages.
Perhaps the NYCT should employ a few lawyers on staff who would do nothing but file suits against the families of the idiots for incidents like this.
This would (1) employ a few lawyers who could not sue the TA.
and (2) possibly defer future suits against the City and the TA with the proper use of publicity.
They could countersue for cleanup costs and for lost revenues while the service was down due to the incident.
Then commuters could file a class-action lawsuit against the family for lost time, pain and suffering, etc.
"My remark about the lawsuit was "tongue in cheek"
MY response to you was also "tongue in cheek".
We live in a strange world where someone files an outrageous lawsuit, it goes to trial and they are awarded a huge windfall. We talk about it in sheer amazement. It seems everone is suing someone these days.
Also, I have compassion for someone who changes cars and somehow falls between the cars and gets killed. It was their intention to change cars and an accident happened. Now to climb between the cars in a subway tunnel and get killed. My compassion would be for his family who learned of his death and must deal with it.
Common sense would have prevented his death, but todays society just does what they please and dom't account fore their actions.
Bill "Newkirk"
Rockin to the max!!! Second only to a big bug cut. CI Peter
>>>>>>>He did not survive the cut.
You mean "he did not survive the splat". At least you can say that he didn't have his brains splattered since he didn't have any to begin with.
My crocodile cries for him. What an idiot.
HEY TRAIN DUDE !!
I think he deserves two "Darwin" awards.
Usually these subway surfers do this in the outdoors before they slam into an overpass. This guy did it in the subway. How the hell can you stand on the roof in the subway ?
Bill "Newkirk"
watch for that (UMMMMPH!!!!!).....i beam.
Maybe those limbo skills came in handy?
Usually these subway surfers do this in the outdoors before they slam into an overpass. This guy did it in the subway. How the hell can you stand on the roof in the subway ?
I guess you can't...
-JR
Easy - in the movies only the bad guy gets whalloped by the beam coming by!
Seriously, though, I'd assume he was lying down, or hanging from the side with only his head over the top of the train, or something like that.
Give the man a break. At least he learned to fly. I don't know of ANYONE who can fly from a northbound local over two express tracks to catch an express on the fly. Surfing USA!
Too bad 'Elevator Action' from Taito hasn't gotten the next generation of 'Darwin Award' winners. Remember the stupid kids in City Housing jumping elevator cabs??? The cousin of 'Taco Bell bin Smokey Joe' pulled something on the adjacent track after a D4 compressor repair...lots of air flying around. Safe in my pit today doing undercar...I don't laugh at these things because I know the hazards. CI Peter
I am offended by your sarcastic attitude. This is a time for impersonal insensitivity and I am ashamed as a railfan that you cannot see that. To lump this fairly typical incident in with something along the lines of an Amtrak stranding or a LIAR screw up demeans us all.
:)
JM -- You are ashamed as a railfan. TD is a railroader. TD has to supervise the hosing down and cleaning of rolling stock after 12-9 incidents. TD has seen things that would make you hurl your stomach. I'm sure that TD is really impressed with your OUTSIDE opinion.
I've attended a few hosings down myself here in Voorheesville. One of the very worst parts of railroading, second only to trying to reassure a buddy that there was nothing in the world he could have done different to stop the greasing ...
Please note the smiley. I am just joshing with him. I wanted to see if anyone noticed that I was making light of his sarcasm with a completely sarcastic reply.
As someone who has attended this type of thing first hand, in all seriousness folks, let's offer a collective dose of moral support, via Train Dude, to the conductor and T/O.
Amen. The crew gets 'written up' for not checking....bottom of the food chain. CI Peter
You know, TD, Mike may be right and we shouldn't be so sarcastic about this tragic incident. An A line T/O is having a really bad day right now and we must not forget the pain he/she is going through right now because of this dumb shmuck that didn't realize that the steel poles inside the train were the ones he should have grabbed onto.
An A line T/O is having a really bad day right now a...
That's been my (serious) take on this subject, too.
My not-serious take is that Ariel Briones died a more exciting death than any of us have. (serious again) It's unfortunate that he had to mess up other peoples' lives at the same time.
In case you didn't realize it my post was completely sarcastic itself. Did nobody notice the smilie face? I was saying that we shoudln't be sarcastic when just plain insensitivity is called for. Sort of like they shouldn't be mocked, they should be laughed at.
As you stated in 305287:
Please note the smiley. I am just joshing with him. I wanted to see if anyone noticed that I was making light of his sarcasm with a completely sarcastic reply.
I noticed the smiley. I can't laugh at someone's demise, even someone that stupid. I'd still like to know how the fella flew across two full tracks after falling off the C.
People are surprisingly elastic.
Can we say Briones' death makes New York is a better place?
Did it happen like this?
My eulogy for idiots like this is short, sweet, and by now, quite well-known.
"You can't live forever."
I dont get it. Simple as that
According to the Post, an Acela regional train stalled east of New Rochelle and it took 5 hours to move it. I assume that this was one of the Acela trains that uses standard equipment since the real Acelas are double ended. Anyway, they hooked a diesel up to it and pulled it to Penn Station.
y'know this is the crap that riles those of us who love trains and despise the ATK "management". FIVE hours to dispatch a motor from Penn or Sunnyside to drag in the dead train? FIVE hours--right four hours to figure out what to do and one hour to do it --sorta like the how many (favorite despised social group) does it take to replace a light bulb? one to do it, six to watch, guffaw, cheer etc...
"FIVE hours to dispatch a motor from Penn or Sunnyside to drag in the dead train? FIVE hours--right four hours to figure out what to do and one hour to do it --"
That was my first thought when I posted the message. Thinking like a railfan, that was the natural conclusion. Then consider it from another point of view, I don't know the BLE schedule of work conditions. It was New years Day. If they didn't have a crew handy, how long did it take to get a crew called in? How much time does the BLE get for a reporting allowance? How long does it take to prepare a loco for road service? Then what is the MAS for a single unit on AMTRAK? On the LIRR, a single unit MAS is 40 MPH.
Likely problems yes, BUT within five hours, they would have had at least one crew northbound w/ a regular train--add an engine ct it off where needed. And in this elapsed time, no other southbound approached? God knows I am not a pro in this business but five hours is a long time.
5 hours to pull a dead AEM-7 (or was it an HHP-8?) to Penn from New Rochelle? I know diesels ain't fast, but man... :)
Actually, knowing Amtrak, 5 hours sounds about right.
1 hour to decide if the train's really broken
1 hour to find a crew and loco
1 hour to get from Sunnyside to New Rochelle
1 hour to hook it up
1 hour to get back to Penn
Oh, yes, and if anyone thinks that's slow 'complain to your congressman, it's not our fault'....
I hope the passengers called Amtrak and asked for a customer service certificate. I always call to get one when I get terrible service -- and Amtrak always gives me one.
One agent tried to talk me out of it but I said "You advertise satisfaction guaranteed. Well, I'm not satisfied. Are you going to honor the advertising." I received the certificate within a week.
Michael
East of New Rochelle? I'm beginning to think that AMTK has no incentive to get that train moving, because it's sitting on MNRR property? Now look at it this way -- Why the hell aren't they dispatching any MN equipment lying spare in NH just to get the train out the way? an FL-9 will do it. AMTK can then pay MNRR handsomely for rescuing its train. Spot-hire is not that difficult if the crew & equipment are handy. I'm willing to bet money on MNRR control saying "it's your problem" while they happily penalize AMTK for "unauthorized occupation of track space".
Also, David, you will never jerpordize a northbound service (or indeed any other service train) to rescue a stranded train.
The failed equipment is likely to be an HHP-8. Shortly before Christmas, an HHP-8 sat down at Hyde Park tying up the mainline for 2 hours. HHP-8 don't have a particularly reliable reputation. They dispatched AMT 525 (GP-40) from BOS to get it. The winter is setting in and the French can't take it so they are sitting down everywhere.
Lexcie
Still think they should have gotten AEM-7s. NJ Transit did and they weren't disappointed. Good luck, MARC.
Well you're quite the johny on the spot with the camera. Good job.
Mudey
That is NOT an ACELA. It's an HHP-8. The ACELA equipment is numbered in the 2000 series, as the HHP-8 is in the higher 600 series (low 600 series used by the remaining E-60 locomotives).
That is NOT an ACELA. It's an HHP-8. The ACELA equipment is numbered in the 2000 series, as the HHP-8 is in the higher 600 series (low 600 series used by the remaining E-60 locomotives).
This exemplifies my opinion that Amtrak was silly for deciding to name all NEC trains Acela. The HHP-8 clearly has the name "Acela" painted on its side, but as UTC Bus Roster points out, when we hear the name "Acela", we think "Acela Express", which is the 2000 series with a single-ended motor on each end of the trainset. The HHP-8 (banana) hauls the "Acela Regional", hence the name "Acela" on its side. The Clockers were to be called "Acela Commuter", which (IMHO) greatly diminishes the connotation of the name "Acela". I think somebody at Amtrak goofed seriously by buying the bill of goods from some consulting firm that told them to name everything "Acela".
Three classes of service known as "Acela Express", "Northeast Direct", and "Clocker" would have been more meaningful and less confusing.
I was about to say, it says ACELA on the side clearly.
The preferred motive power for Acela Regionals coming out of BOS had steadily been AEM-7's. I've not yet ridden behind an HHP-8, and everytime I've photographed HHP-8's on BOS service they had been either in pairs or failed.
I still call it NEDirect, as do the Amtrak Reservations people (if you ask for NEDirect, they will talk back like old timers).
I have several Amtrak timetables that say "NEDirect" for some trains, and "Acela Regional" for others, and "Metroliner" yet others. I'm totally at a loss as to why they are called different names, but with each timetable reprint they seem to have reduced the number of NEDirect trains and increased the number of "Acela Regional" trains. I get the impression that "Acela Regional" was slower than the old NEDirect in order to make Acela Express look faster. A few "crack" NEDirects I used to ride out of BOS had disappeared from the timetables, replaced by "Acela Regional" with more stops and longer timing. This is all except the Night Owel which is now called the Twlight Shoreliner and has a faster schedule now than in the E60 days. The schedule change is probably because of the decommissioning of the E-60's.
Lexcie
Just before electrification, all trains NY-Boston were called NortheastDirect. A 5-hour unreserved local train was called the same thing as a 4.5-hour all-reserved express train. Most trains were locals, but there were a few expresses scattered throughout the day.
When electrification was first completed, trains that used electric engines all the way to Boston (no change at New Haven) were designated Acela Regional. The first Acela Regional schedules made express stops only (presumably to show off the electrification, since there were no Acela Express trainsets ready to do this), making the run in about 4 hours. For this brief period the few Acela Regional trains were the premium trains north of NY, and NortheastDirect became the slow local service. As more electrics were delivered, more trains were converted to be Acela Regional on the timetable.
Now that NortheastDirect is eliminated and Acela Express is also running, Acela Regional is the lower of two service levels. They are intended to make local stops, and do this in about 4.5 hours (the same time as it took to make express stops before). Acela Express trains make the express stops, in about 3.5 hours. South of NY, Metroliners temporarily co-exist with Acela Express as the premium express service.
So the reason Acela Regional seems to make more stops than some of the old NortheastDirect trains is that you're comparing the current local service with the old express service. But note that the current all-electric local service actually takes the same amount of time (usually a little less, I think) as the old express service that ran diesel north of New Haven. It's not a matter of making Acela Express looking faster, it's the juggling around of all the service classes. It was a great way to sneak in lots of small fare increases on the NEC, but that's a different question.
Holy moly...those old GP40TC's are still around?????
I remember when they loaned a couple of them to Caltrain out here in California, the engineers all hated them.
Plenty in numbers. I've seen AMT 184 at Harrisburg, AMT 522 (now renumbered AMT 525) at BOS, and also there are a few others lying aronud in MOW work. Also of interest, BOS has AMT 280 and AMT 294 for pilot work -- both are F-40's. Other interesting engine here is a GP-9, MBTA #1921. Lots of old clunkers out there, AMT 603 and 610 is up in Philly (both E-60's)... I don't know if they still have any FL-9's though. I bet you they are all in Terra Haute just in case they have a big ass wreck and run out of Genesises.
I know about all that other stuff you mentioned...but look close in that original photo of the broken Acela HHP-8 engine -- that is one of the Amtrak 192-199 series GP40TC's originally built for GO Transit up in Ontario doing the towing.
You know, a friend told me they were originally built for GO Transit. I didn't believe him, but I guess he was right. They are numbered in the #52x series now. I did look at that engine up close, I didn't see any green paint (I was trying to establish whether the thing about GO Transit was true).
I'd be amazed if a FL9 was sitting in New Haven. There's no need for a FL9 at New Haven. There's more likely for a FL9 to be sitting at Sunnyside for Empire Service.
Michael
There's no need for a FL9 at New Haven
So what are the F-9 lookalike units that periodically sit at NH, and was painted NH colors? You know, the ones with the odd B-C trucks?
Lexcie
The reason I'm amazed is that I wasn't aware MNRR needed FL9s. Come to think of it, they could be used on the Waterbury and Danbury lines during the week on run throughs to Grand Central instead of passengers changing at Bridgeport and South Norwalk, respectively.
Michael
FL9's painted in NH colors in New Haven, Conn. could be involved with the thru GCT-Danbury or Waterbury weekday trains. They could have been deadheaded there for servicing, especially on weekends, or be spares for those services, and also Shore Line East.
Waterbury and Danbury shuttle trains (RDC's and SPV-2000's) used to be based at New Haven, and would deadhead down the Shore Line to Bridgeport or Norwalk before making their connections.
I just finished watching the Robert De Niro movie " A Bronx Tale." I really enjoyed it and now have it on tape. I am not as familar with the Bronx as many of you are. Where is the Fordham section? He was a bus driver and so I saw no subways in the movie. Is their a line that goes through there or is out of the way. And is the section still Italian? I am really curious after watching the movie to find out if the neighborhood bears any resemblance to the Fordham section of 1960 and 1968, the two periods portrayed in the movie.
if i recall right, some, if not much of, that movie was filmed in Queens - astoria, on 30th av east of steinway. they redid all the storefronts, etc. just for the movie.
Some of the scenes involving the railroad trestle were filmed in Brooklyn. I believe it was near Neck Road on the Brighton Line.
It definitely was the Brighton Line's Neck Rd Station, which still retains portions of the Manhattan Beach line's station adjacent to it.
Alan Glick
If you look carefully their are some circa 1980's condo building on the corner of 15th street and neck road in one of the scenes
Joe: No wonder I thought the place looked familiar. Hell, I went to PS 10 my last year in New York and lived in the Woodside Housing Apartments from July, '53 to September '54 when we moved. I used to walk from my house to Steinway Street to the LOEW's Triborough to see the first or second run movies. Thanks for the info.
no problemo. it was the joke of the neighborhood for awhile, though it was damn nice to see the street spiffed up like that, with period cars and buses around...
The Fordham section is around 190th and 3rd Ave. The Movie is supposed to take place a few blocks south of Fordham Rd, where the father's bus (BX12) runs. Joe is right, most of the movie was filmed in Queens; however, many of the neighborhood shots (such as the beginning where you see the church and post office) are actually filmed on 187th, between Arthur and Belmont, where the movie is supposed to take place. The D train, if you get off at Fordham Rd, is the best way to get to the area by subway. After you get up on the street, you have to walk one block north up the Concourse to Fordham Rd, then walk east towards Webster Ave. (I'm using north, south, etc relative to manhattan and the layout of streets) Its about a 15 minute walk to get to Arthur Ave, walking on Fordham Rd the entire time. During the day I wouldn't worry about the walk, at night you may want to have better awareness. If you don't want to walk, you can take the Metro North Harlem line, and get off at Fordham Rd/Bronx Zoo. That'll put you out at Fordham Rd and 3rd Ave, all you have to do is walk east, past Fordham University. Although Italians still live in the area, it is now predominantly Hispanic. You'd be surprised to see that the Fordham section looks very similar as it did in the 60s, but right on Fordham Rd it looks fairly different. Hope this helps.
It helps a lot MRUFFALO. Thanks for taking the time to answer my post. I knew there was still Italian sections in the Bronx, I just didn't know where.
Around Williamsbridge (across Bronx Park from the Fordham section) there's still a lot of Italians..
Off the No. 2 train---Pelham Parkway, Allerton Ave., Burke Ave., Gun Hill Rd.--If you go east from any of those stations, you're generally in an Italian neighborhood..Well, not exactly Italian, but the neighborhoods there used to be almost completely Italian and Jewish...now there's Hispanics and Orientals and Eastern Europeans, but a lot of Italians still live there.
Thanks Tony, I will keep that in my memory bank. Good to know there are still Italian neighborhoods in New York. They seem to be fast disappearing out to Long Island and Staten Island.
Throgs Neck is another strong enclave of yours truly.
Strange as it seems I have never been there and want to visit it on my next trip in. Some told me it is somewhat suburban with a lot of individual houses and not so many apartments. Is that true. And how is the best way to get there. From the looks of things I will be spending a good deal of my next trip up in the Bronx.
Is thew White Castle still there near Roosevelt HS????
Oh, and for those out here in California, there is a GREAT, TRULY AUTHENTIC Bronx Pizza place out here. Trouble is, it's in San Diego. The owner is a former boxer who lived on Arthur Avenue & 187th. Can't remember his name, but I do know the first name was "Matt". It's the ONE AND ONLY pizza place out here that actually serves "New York style" pizza, not just says it does!!
Sir:
No one can serve "New York Pizza" outside of New York. It's akin to serving a bagel or bialy in L.A.
NY Pizza retains it's taste because of the WATER used here. They may get close fairly close to the original, but unless he trucks in NY water, which I doubt, fugetabouit. I lived in the Valley and Santa Monica for over a year, and I spent many a day searching for something that came close. I ended up having my friends and parents sending FedEx'ed Gino's square pies, at way more than $12.00 a pie.
So true about the water....I agree with you wholeheartedly. The guy in San Diego claims he somehow gets NY water shipped out to him. Having tasted the pizza he puts out, I'm inclined to think he's doing "something" as no other place has ever come near his quality.
Yep, the White Castle is there right across the street. One of my favorite fast food places!
You mean you LIKE those sliders?:-)
I love those things. Any time my "system" needs a good cleaning out, I grab about a dozen of them. They work better than Ex-Lax.
Belly Bombs, Murderburgers....
Love those things...
My favorite White Castle was the one at 92nd Street near 4th Ave. in Bay Ridge...it closed about 6 months after I moved to Bay Ridge in 1987.
My second favorite one is the one at Allerton Ave. and Boston Post Road in the Bronx.
A funny aside about White Castle-
I decided to stop eating them in the mid-eighties, I got tired of the "eat-too-many-of-'em-cause-they're-cheap" stomache ache :)
about 6 months later I was up in Queens in that mall near "Slattery Plaza" or whatever it's called, and said "Hey!!! White Castle!!! Allright!!!" and went in and ate 5 double cheeseburgers..
Of course, riding the train back to Brooklyn, I had a crappy feeling in my stomach, and remembered why I hadn't had those things in so long, and decided not to eat 'em anymore..
So of course, 6 months later--"Hey!! White Castle!!!" etc.
:)
Only way you can get those upstate is frozen ... and not quite the same without the grillwork. Same tummy torture though. :)
You know, I can get them frozen at the grocery store near me...and I live in North Carolina...
My kid (5 years old) used to like cheeseburgers (now, the way he eats, I think he's a vegetarian), so I bought him some once...they tasted just like the ones you would get in a real Whits Castle..
anyway, he ate two of them, and said, "Hey dad, these things aren't very good"
Oh, well
:)
Heh. Must be the sack ... they also tasted a WHOLE lot better after four or five stops on the 3rd Avenue el from the store on Fordham. :)
Yup.
Legend has it that it's the sweat of the cook on the grill that gives them their flavor....ya just can't get that nuking them in the microwave!!!
Microwave?? Me??
:)
I heated 'em up in the oven, microwaves are BAD--to me it's like cooking with a little H-bomb, in my humble opinion.
Off topic
I'm sorry :(
Don't narc us out to the pigs ...
Too late
LOL
From the el at between Knickerbocker and Wyckoff, I noticed they just tore some old buildings down to build a new White Castle. You can see it on the North side from the M train.
Mmmmmm, beef cookies....hey hon, we're eating out tonight!!
White Castle burgers... aren't those the leftovers from the cow chip throwing contests???? ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ahhh...a gambler...you played cow flop bingo!
White Castle.....45th and Queens blvd.......closest station-46th street on the 7 (one block). Lucky me...i live within walking distance!!
I have to drive up to NJ over on 295 exit 36(?) to feed my crave. That is the furthest south on 95 to get those little suckers.
Phil Hom
Wash DC
Your supermarkets don't have frozen belly bombs?
I like them freshly steam grilled. The onions have a different texture when frozen and the bread gets too steamed up.
OK..back on track
Where in San Diego? My brother-in-law lives there and he mises New York Pizza. What's the name of this place? Thanks.
Why, it's BRONX PIZZA, of course!!!!
It's on Washington Street, half a block east of First Avenue. Sort of in the Huillcrest district. Parking in the neighborhood is always a pain in the ass, especially around lunchtime.
Steve, post the address in San Diego where I can get some of that real New York pizza. I will be in Carlsbad in two weeks and it is just a stone's throw from Dago. Let me know will you?
I found good NY pizza in San Diego many years ago. The place was on University and a street named after some state. Florida Street?
Having grown up right in the neighborhood depicted in the movie, I'd say they did a fair job of recreating the neighborhood, even though in the credits at the end, they state it was actually filmed in Astoria.
I do give them credit on the two buses used in the movie, they were done pretty well though not perfectly, to resemble the buses used on the Bx12 to City Island in those days.
The neighborhood WAS Italian -- but aroudn the time I finished high school (Cardinal Hayes, 1968) there was a mix of people moving in.
Yes, there was a subway line -- the Third Avenue elevated...until 1973/1974 I guess (I was gone in 9/68). The next subway line westward would have been the D lien under the Grand Concourse about half a mile up from the neighborhood depicted in the movie.
To be technical they used at least 3 buses in the filming. The GMC old look and 2 new looks.
Steve if you tape the movie and slow it down, you will see that the exterior shots of the New Look were done with a non-A/C bus. Watch the interior shot when the "C" first looks at the black girl on the New Look. Stop the VCR at that point and look at the back of the bus. You'll see a line running across the back indicating an A/C unit on the bus.
I'm sure you'll see my point because as Alice Kramden once said to Ralph after he passes the physical after a night of bowling "and driving a bus is your livelyhood".
Also -- the High School used in the movie is Bryant HS---clearly in Astoria.
That is the high school I was ready to attend if we had not moved to California in 1954. I spend many a summer afternoon there in '53 and '54 playing stickball against the hand ball courts. I was a killer in that sport back then and I would play ten games a day. I even loved stickball better than baseball. The baseball field wasn't a real baseball field, but a track with enough room for a field that didn't measure out to be a real regulation field. I played a few games there as well. I'm surprised I didn't recognize it when they showed it on screen. I thought they would pick out a high school in the Bronx. When I watch the film next time I will be more attentive to detail.
I'll have to pop the movie into the VCR and check it out....thanks for the hint.
Italian areas in the Bronx - think in terms of Williamsbridge Road in the vicinity of Allerton Avenue as a few blocks east of the White Plains #2 line. Arthur Avenue still has Italian bakeries and restaraunts. Morris Park Avenue sitll hosts Italian restaraunts, bakeries and stores. This is particularly true around Morris Park Avenue in the vicinity of Mace Avenue.
I think that movie depicts a lot of the social changes and native mentality of the era. I grew up in Brooklyn in the 1960's and can strongly relate to many of the themes in the movie.
And I grew up in Brooklyn in the 1980's and LIVED the themes in the movie.
How does the NYC-Subway cope with snow and freezing temperatures? Is there some kind of heating-devices built in to the switches and/or in the third rail? In Stockholm, most subway services halted over the Christmas holliday, due to failure of such systems. Badly maintained as they been over the last years due to hysterical cost-chasing. Many trains come to a complete halt as they got isolated from the third rail due to the ice. The passengers then had to walk through the snow on the trackway to the nearest station, after they had been evacuated from the trains.
/B
YER gonna like this New York answer: tower operators are supposed to move switches at least once an hour in the yards to MAKE TRAINS GO....but they forget. My signal maintainer partner told me they had to go out in the yard with newpaper and alcohol to start fires to heat up the rails. Sweden? It's cold out there...go next door and borrow a Lapps reindeer to tow your trainsets. Car Inspector Peter
They where all very busy with something at the northpole, during the christmas holliday :-)
/B
On Amtrak and the LIRR, you can see switch heaters - they burn natural gas and make for a very surrealistic picture when viewed at night.
NYCT has a very elaborate "Cold Weather Plan". It involves various actions that are taken depending on temp. range and snow fall. The steps include:
Alternate lay-up positions for trains,
Mechanical drills where train operators rock trains in the yard.
Trains used to polish the rails or even trains with special contact shoes that scrape the 3rd rail.
Jet Snow Blowers & De-Icer trains
In the yards and in outdoor locations, the switches are heated electrically.
And many other steps includingthe opening of storm command centers.
Hope this gives you a quick overview.
Do they have any diesel locos to run on the tracks if the third rails are really iced over? Seems like that would be a pretty good thing to have around. You could probably throw some sort of heater on the undercarriage to warm the trackway, too.
In fact, one of the cold weather adjustments involves operating "Storm Emergency Trains" on certain lines, like in the Rockaways. The trains consist of four passenger cars flanked by diesel locomotives. The cars aren't powered, but at least they operate.
David
A S.E.T. Crew contains 3 T/O, 1 C/R and 1 TSS. There are four train set up in the system. 2 @ Piken Yard witch has 4 R68's that get sent there from CIY, 1 @ CIY also with 4 R68's & 1 up @ Westceter Yerd when ether 1 five car set of R62's or 4 cars single of R62's witch ever is avable at the time.
All this info is from a TA Buttlen that I have read before. It is 8 or 9 pages long and goes into the whole way the train is supppse to run.
Robert
They only would run 1 train out of Pitkin, 1 out of Coney, and 1 for the whole elevated IRT in the Bronx? That seems like very marginal service. Why can't they put a few more trains out of each yard?
Flooding is more of an IRT problem is I remember correctly.
Even in the real big storm of the 76?77?78? it was the tunnel not the structure that was the problem. That is likely your answer too. It can fall down from the structure and less prone to drifts.
>>Flooding is more of an IRT problem is I remember correctly. <<
Then does the MTA have ferries to run through the tunnels? :-)
3 T/O? That seems like a lot. I could see one at each end (to rock the train back and forth to clear some ice), but I don't know where you'd put a third.
One T/O in each diesel, while the 3rd is stationed in the cab of the passenger cars. IIRC, he has to monitor the gauges on those cars.
-Stef
Ahhh - that makes sense. But if the train is only 4 cars, couldn't it be run "OPTO" with the T/O in the passenger train also serving as C/R?
Not that it really matters, since the service is so limited...
The Snow Emergency Train calls for a C/R. The train isn't OPTO to the best of my knowledge, but you pose an interesting point.
-Stef
SET Consist is Diesel-4 R68 or 5 R62 - Diesel. 1 T/O in each diesel, 1 T/O in head out revenue car to monitor brakes in passenger cars, 1 CR to open/close doors.SET train should be thought of as a rescue train for passengers stranded at stations due to a suspension in service from snow.
Wow ... NOW you've got me wanting to head to the city for "da big one" just to be able to ride and kibbitz on one of those. I never thought you'd be doing pickups on those puppies, just knocking the crap off the tracks. Hooooo doggie! I'll be watching the weather reports on channel 5 now. :)
I have pictures of the SET Train on my website.
SET Train Pictures
-Harry
Thanks for the pics.
You know, I'm going to have to ride this puppy someday...
That thing is just so damn cool - it's even got a little plow on the front!
Yep ... saw them when they went up last winter ... didn't know geese could actually RIDE the puppy. Looks like another occasion for a fantrip annoying the hell out of TSS' along the way. :)
"Hey ... what does this 'Dyn Brake' handle do?" Heh. Many many years ago, got to ride in old "88" in Coney ... definitely less spacious than an SD80.
That still leaves my question.
A 4-car train can be run OPTO, and that's with the one person also driving the train! If it's being pulled (and pushed) along by diesels, that removes much of the T/O's job.
As I said, it isn't a big point, since there are only 3 of these in the city.
Actually, you'd want someone in the regular cars that knows what the red needle and the black needle are for, just in case a brake hose ain't connected the way it left the yard anymore. I'm pretty sure you'd want brakes applying if there was a need, and someone who can tell for certain that the pipes have air. I can definitely see the point if it's running revenue.
Are those passenger cars under power? Are they MUed with the diesels?
Or is it just the breaks that are are working with the diesels like the breaks on a freight train are to a locomotive?
avid
So my Roosian brother says to me in propulsion, 'Alcohol Peter, alcohol, spray Peter spray, psst, psst, alcohol Peter.' Light a match under one of those boids and the switches within 100 yards (and everyone else) will be thawed. Come on Steve, laugh, you're old enough and in long enough to understand my cold sick humor. CI Peter
This is a true story (sort of).
So I get hired by the TA and I report for my physical. There we are, standing in our underware on the 6th floor at jay Street, my friend George Hunter, a russian guy and me. The conversation between the Dr and the russian went like this:
DoctorSo how are you
Russian (in thick Russian accent) I am good.
DoctorDo you speak english?
Russian I speak perrrrfect english.
Doctor How tall are you?
Russian (in thick Russian accent)One hundred sixty two pounds.
That's a good one. Ive got another one for you (100% true story).
About 4 weeks ago, I was working the A line going uptown to 207th Street when close to the terminal, I notice that the door enabler is not lighting up, and the C/R is able to open the doors without the use of the enabler. I call for an RCI at 207th Street and the conversation goes like this:
Zman: The enabler is not working (I explain the above)
RCI (in very thick Russian accent): Da. Vat iz vong again?
Zman: The enabler. It's not lighting up, and the C/R is able to open the doors without the enabler being activated.
RCI: Da. (points to #15 door panel) I cut out door.
Zman: NO NO NO (pointing to the enabler, and now speaking in broken english to get him to understand), ENABLER. NO WORK. (Now pointing to C/R) HIM OPEN DOOR, ME NO PUSH BUTTON. (Pointing to enabler) THAT NO WORK.
RCI: Um, da. (points to #15 door panel) I cut out dis door.
Zman: LETS GO TO THE DISPATCHER'S OFFICE.
These language barriers are rapidly increasing down here. It's tough to do your job when a language barrier pops up at you.
# 1 Job requirement for RCI/CI is to speak, understand and to be understood in english. They ain't slippin' through the cracks. They is overflowing the dams.
It would seem that the guy is at least TRYING ... perhaps some flash cards are in order for such unusual failures ... "I cut out" does cover about 45% of all underground events.
You guys can print up the below - ain't perfect, but it'll do:
Äâåðü äàâàòü âîçìîæíîñòü èëè ïðàâî ëîìàòü
(use Cyrillic code page 1250 to print)
Whoops ... that's "code page 1251" for the Cyrillic to proint properly.
Third shift used to f up my Kleinschmidts. CI Peter
The requirement for the job is to ........... on the books!!!!!!! I like working with everyone...even the new foremen....and when I said 'God Bless and thankyou for your help and understanding' the Indian gentleman drew a sixty second blank. He knows the work well mechanically BUT why should there be a language barrier??? What i do is to keep my big mouth shut in these situations....a foreman wanted me to write up a G2 on another foreman whose English is about 40% understandable. I didn't...I have their respect despite being a newbie probie. I've learned to complete inspection before lending a hand...I'm learning about the smucks who call you 'partner' and leave you emptyhanded thankyouverrymuch. Mebbe TA needs to implement physical abilities testing...can't count the times I'm asked to pull off an inspection cap or shoe beam nut. Wonder what it's like to have a 'Roosian foreman?' The MS test dropped a lot of em for lack of basic stuff and memorising the Blue Book. New tech and the use of DVMs and storage scopes will seperate the men from the BOIS. CI Peter
Are you from Russia?
DA!
Are you drunk yet?
da
Oh Steve...why do you have to post something like this...I'm rolling on the floor. In propulsion 'training' with Simon: "Peter, alcohol, spray, psst, psst, spray alcohol, Peter spray.' A spark would light someones Redbird day...but i love them all. CI Peter
The lay up areas when the cold weather plan is in effect are mostly, if not all underground areas?
That would make the most sense.
Can they store all the MU's within the confines of the existing underground space without affecting service?
WMATA could take some lessons from your crews. Maybe that way Washington Metrorail won't lose over one third of its subway cars to electrical and other failures at the next snowstorm.
With any serious snow, anyone who commutes via the Brighton line usually goes home early, as this is the first line to get snowed-in. I have no idea of what kind of equipment they use to clear the tracks in such situation; with the Brighton line, the snow has to be actually removed, and not just pushed aside.
In my experience, the els and subways are not too affected by snow, tho' subway stations tend to get drifted-in at their entrances.
When was it, the big blizzard, '93? '94? Quite nearly everything shut down. I remember vividly watching Susan Molinari standing in the well of the House of Representatives, next to the Big Bad Newt, happily shutting down the government, essentially thumbing her nose at her SI and Bay Ridge constituents who were unable to get out of their homes.
Why is the Brighton worse off than the Sea Beach? I suppose the snow there could be pushed to the unused express tracks -- but the Brighton snow could also be pushed onto the express tracks. Local-only service is a drag (especially on that line) but it's better than nothing.
Yeah buddy.
I personally experienced a lot of these problems. For instance, at about 9.30 on Saturday morning, 29 December, I took over a train of new C20 stock at Alvik southbound from a driver who needed a relief (he'd been on that train for close to five hours with no break because of the disruption caused by the snow). I initially forgot to insert my key, so I couldn't get my indicator light. When I identified and corrected this problem, I left Alvik.
And couldn't make it up the first hill. The train simply sputtered to a halt after about 100-150 meters or so. The third-rail shoes apparently didn't have enough contact with the third rail to get me the power I needed to make the hill.
I called Control. "Change over to Battery mode," they said. Yeah, that's gonna work great on an upgrade! But I did as they asked -- and slid backwards, going into emergency after about two meters. Good job! So the poor driver I'd relieved climbed into the rear cab (the rear of the train was still at the platform at Alvik) and took the train back into the station. Then Control wanted me to make one more attempt to conquer the hill. So I did -- and got about five meters farther than the first time. THEN the poor driver had to take the train back from me, on orders from Control, and continue back northbound, apparently just to get the damned train out of the way.
After this, I decided to make myself useful by walking around the platform and trying to answer questions. After a few minutes, an announcement came over the PA that the next southbound train was about to leave Abrahamsberg, only two stations away. So I tried to spread this information to people who might have missed it.
The train entered the station and -- WHOOSH -- proceeded through without stopping. Thanks, Control! GREAT information to the passengers, not to mention me!
Anyway, I took over a train of older stock at about 10.30 southbound from Alvik to Hagsätra. The driver I took it over from told me it didn't want to go as fast as it should. No sh*t -- it helped some to use the button to cut some of the cars back in when it got really slow, but it never got really peppy.
Ultimately, I left Enskede gård southbound. There's a gentle rise out of the station, then a few more dips and rises until the last gentle rise into Sockenplan station. In that last "valley," my train ground to a halt. After I contacted Control, they finally ended up asking me to discharge and re-charge in that cab, so I did. I ended up with only 5 kg of air pressure (7 is the minimum to operate). They asked me to change ends and see if things worked better at the other end.
You can't pass all the way through these trains on the inside. On the right-hand side (from the driving position) at the cab end of these cars, there is a little pair of steps that is somewhat semi-serviceable for climbing into and out of the train. But I also had the third rail on that side, so I decided not to chance that. I stuffed my tools into my jacket pockets, and jumped out on the left side through the spotting door.
I fell backwards into the snow; my tools flew out of my jacket pockets and disappeared without a trace in the snow, which was at about nut level or so ;-). (For me, that is -- I'm about 5'8".) So I used my mobile telephone to call Control and report what had happened. The dispatcher sympathized with me, and told me he had a car with a supervisor on its way, and just to hang on.
So I got to spend a happy half-hour waiting in the snow for this car to arrive. When it did, carrying TWO supervisors, it took them an hour and a half just to move the train to Sockenplan. (There was ice on both the third rail itself and on the third-rail shoes. They concluded that my train was completely isolated from the third rail.)
When we got to Sockenplan, we evacuated the train preparatory to taking it to the yard at Högdalen. Naturally, in car 7 we had a drunk who refused to get off. Both a supervisor and I tried talking with him, but it was no use. So we drove the train to Högdalen, taking the center track and waiting for the long arm of the law. After 15-20 minutes, two police showed up and pulled the drunk off the train.
The supervisor who was with me (the other one had gone back to get their car) asked if I wanted to drive the train into the yard. "No, thanks," I said, since I'd only been on the road for about a week at this point and was by now very wary of this train. So he took the controls, and we proceeded toward the yard; moved switches as necessary to go in on track 9; came up to the shed door, opened it, and proceeded into the shed; continued over the walkway in the center to the other side. He hit the brakes and got nothing. He hit the snow brakes and got nothing. He put the train in emergency and got some brake, but not enough. We charged right into the shed door. Ouch.
We looked at each other. We could hardly believe that this day had ended with this crap.
Oh man.
-- Tim
On "The Map", they say the Northbound N or R, they don't make it clear which, skips 45th and 53rd Streets on the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn. Also, they call 45th Street 46th Street. Why does one of these trains need to skip those stations after midnight?
It is the R. Northbound R trains discharge at 59th, run light to north of 36th, and relay with 36th being the first southbound stop. This is so that the R doesn't hold up the W which in turn holds up the N.
Northbound R trains do NOT discharge at 59th. They discharge at 36th Street.
Under normal conditions, the R will run local to 36/4, where it relays onto the n/b express track. It then reverses ends and crosses over to the s/b express and s/b local track where it enters service again. This is timed not to interfere with N and W trains, but at 20 minute intervals during overnight hours, it's not hard to space trains.
We had this discussion when the map came out and made the skiped stations proclomation. That was the answer given. Think about it. Why keep the R in service on that stretch anyway? How many people go from 95th to 45th anyway?
From the one time I rode this part of the line late at night (a few times in 1998), it operated as such:
R trains operated from 95th to 36th St, entering 36th on the northbound local track. After discharging, the train switched to the northbound express track north of the station, where it reversed direction and waited for it's next scheduled leaving time at 36th St, switching from the northbound express-to southbound express-to southbound local track. The West End shuttle did the same thing. The express platform, at least in my experience, was always closed. Twice, it was occupied by trash trains.
The R should be in service because the map says the R is in service! That's enough of a reason, IMO. Besides, if it's going to 36 anyway, why kick off the passengers?
Sorry if this is a repeat, but I didn't see it posted previously.
"Ariel Briones, 20, of 3940 Bronx Blvd., was hit by a southbound A train at Clinton and Washington avenues at 1:37 a.m.
Police said Briones, who was riding alone, fell from the back of a northbound C train when the accident happened.
A witness told police Briones had been riding on top of the train - a dangerous and prohibited practice known as "subway surfing.""
New York Post article
I just found the thread started earlier by Train Dude.
I hereby nominate this individual for a Darwin award. Anyone to second?
Here, here.
MATT-2AV
Unfortunately it is not creative enough for a Darwin. Hasn't this happened several times already this year? It's like there are tye types of movies, funny/cult bad and bad bad. This was just plain dumb and is not deserving of any special award.
>>>Hasn't this happened several times already this year?<<<
No.
From the article:
>>>The last time a subway-surfing incident ended in death was May 16, 2000, when a man riding atop a Manhattan-bound No. 7 train fell to his death.
Peace,
ANDEE
Remember the kid riding on the outside of a D train that Mr. Dude told us about? It's basically the exact same thing.
It happens every once in a while. Some kid will try it because it's cool to do it. They know of the risks. But after watching differnent movies about people running and fighting on top of moving trains and bad guys getting wacked by overpasses they didn't notice coming at them, They figure: IT AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN TO ME!!!
Is it cool to hang to the back of an Amtrak train by grab-irons? (or grab-stainless-steels these days, and grab-carbon-fiber-that-isn't-strong-enough in the case of any French product, like the Airbus (or probably the Acela too)).
Lexcie
That happened in Boston one time. Some moron that didnt want to wait for the next train held onto the vents on the side of the top of the train and tried to hold it for the entire ride to the next station. Well the train went into a tunnel and he hit the wall and bounced back and forth between the wall and the train. They say he was probably still alive during the first 7 bounces.
A couple of minor differences. The guy was riding on the side of the train and not the roof. He jumped off instead of falling. He survived although he has a big "42nd St." stamped in his face from when he hit the column at 30 MPH. Otherwise it's the same.
I would say jumping off a moving train in a tunnel is stupider than riding on the roof.
>>> Hasn't this happened several times already this year? <<<
Gee, Mike, give us a break. The year is less than 72 hours old. :-)
Tom
You got my vote.
nothing like early stupidity in 2002
But you know the panrents, there going to say that there son was a good kid, and that he would never do anything like that. Then slap the city with a lawsuit for lets say for $100,000,000.00, Becouse someone shoud have seen him doing it and stop him.
Robert
You have nicely illuminated an important metamorphosis: Every kid who dies becomes an honor student, an exceptional human being without flaws (so of course it's the TA's fault).
I do feel bad for the parents. I don't wish this tragedy on anyone.
Notice that the surfer was 20 years old - legally an adult. If the parents do sue the TA, maybe the TA can get the case thrown out on the grounds that this ADULT surfer was responsibe for his own behavior.
>>> If the parents do sue the TA, maybe the TA can get the case thrown out on the grounds that this ADULT surfer was responsibe for his own behavior. <<<
That is how they would win the case, not get it thrown out of court.
Tom
Better still!
And the TA could sue for lost revenue while the trains had to be shut down to clear up the mess, and for the cleanup fees incurred by having to clean up the brains that weren't bright enough to keep themselves in the skull they were designed to remain in.
Yo Homie T/O: be glad that it wasn't your hand moving the trainset with dumbo upside yo head. Write you up for that. CI Peter
According to what I read,:
"Ariel Briones, 20, of 3940 Bronx Blvd., was hit by a southbound A train at Clinton and Washington avenues at 1:37 a.m.
Police said Briones, who was riding alone, fell from the back of a northbound C train when the accident happened."
This was no KID. THIS WAS A 20 YEAR OLD MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, I didn't know tha the "C" runs at 1:37 am in Brooklyn. You learn something new every day!
They Don't, someone has there facts wrong.
Robert
They were running on a supplement, providing late light express service. This has been done for the last few New Years.
The C was probably runnning that late as part of a New Years Eve supplement around the system.
Normally, the C stops running at about 11pm. This, however, was New Years Eve. The TA extended C service by way of a special G.O. to accomodate the crowds at Times Square. The C ran around the clock for that night.
Forgive me if this has been asked before, but...how can someone fall off a NORTHBOUND A train at Clinton/Washington, and then be hit by a SOUTHBOUND C? At one thirty in the morning?
Aren't all trains local in B'kln at night? That dumbass would have had to fall across four tracks, and three ranks of support columns, and at least two third rails, to be hit by that S/B train!
how can someone fall off a NORTHBOUND A train at Clinton/Washington, and then be hit by a SOUTHBOUND C? At one thirty in the morning
A lucky bounce?
Skill: human pinball
That's true but the "letters" were correct. The C ran all nite New Years Eve thru New Years Day. Extra list personel were utilised.
We've been discussing the R-16's lately and while digging out an answer for Sea Beach Fred I came accross some interesting R-16 facts.
June 6,1963: A three car train of R-16's is assigned to the #7 Franklin Avenue Shuttle. The cars are 6497,6423 and 6443.I believed that they stayed for about a month or so.
September 12,1966: 32 R-16's from both the 6300 and 6400 series are assinged to the GG. "GG B'KLYN-QUEENS" is added to the side routhe sign and "CONTINENTAL AV" and "SMITH-9th ST" are added to the destination signs.
January 11,1955: First R-16's enter service on the #15 Jamaica.
June 20,155: First R-16 train on the #10 Myrtle-Chambers Line
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry:
Nice to see to positive news about my beloved for a change.
Do you know when they were assigned EE service?
R-16: I can't give you an exact date but I can say that by January 15,1970 all R-16s were transfered to the IND Queens Line for EE and GG serivce. Tme March 9,1970 car assignments call for the EE to have 106 R 1/9s and 104 R-16s. The GG was to have 30 R-1/9s,95 R-16s and 54 R-40's. Note that all the remaining 199 R-16s were still in serivce. Note that car 6494 which hit the bumper at south of Broad Street on September 26,1957 was scrapped in February 1958.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I recall most "EE" trains consisting of R-16's about 1974. I was really young, but I can distinctly recall riding one from Macy's at 34th Street to Bloomingdales at Lex/60. My aunt said "What the f--k is this "EE", and where does it go??" It must've been wintertime because I vaguely recall burning my hand on the hot metal heat grille under the seat!!!!! Well, I was only 4 at the time!!! Tony
The "EE" had been running for 7 years, yet your aunt had no idea where it went? LOL.
You think that's bad, my mother still insists that the Lexington Avenue express does not stop at 59th Street.
Peace,
ANDEE
My aunt thought the Dodgers were still in Brooklyn in 1978 until I pointed out they moved to Los Angeles in 1958.
But she can transfer from the BMT to the third Ave el here, right?
In 1968, when I was 11 y.o., I won a 25cent bet/reward from my mother. She refused to believe that the F ran down Houtson Street to Delancey - it would be a D. I said, no, it will be an F. She said I'll give you a quarter if you're right. By the time the train showed up, she promptly forked over that quarter.
It's funny with older people and the subway. My father still calls the L train the LL to this day, no matter how many times he's been on it since.
I always remember seeing the R-16 EE's while waiting for the N at Times Square or 34th Street, and wanting to ride it down to Whitehall, but my mother always said no.
Maybe that's why I love them so much.... Need to see a therapist to help me work through these feelings going back to childhood.
Amazing that in 1970 they had all 199 running, and within 7 to 8 years they were ready for storage and scrap.
R-16: The R-16s suffered the same fate as the R-17,21 and 22s of the IRT. They were just a little to old to be included in the great rebuilding of the late 1980s. They soldiered on while there younger siblings received a new lease on life. There were a few exceptions; the 110 Green R-10s and the 42 Street R-17s plus a few others.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The 42nd Street Shuttle R-17s didn't get an overhaul. They were kept clean before the rest of the fleet was and got painted red shortly before they were retired.
David
If I remember the 42 shuttle, WAY back when had some pretty intersting paint job on a few sets. I vaguely remember something like aqua doors (interior) It may have been around 1980 or so (or earlier). I was young, but I do remember it. It stood out because most every other train had graffiti all over them.
That's right. The cars were painted around 1980. The colors were two shades of blue -- aqua or something similar for the walls, and a darker shade for the doors.
David
See, my memory isn't totally shot in the last 20 years!
They were painting door interiors orange in 1980. I do remember the R-17s on the shuttle being nice and clean while the rest of the fleet was utterly desecrated.
The 42nd Street Shuttle R-17s were an exception to the standard NYCT(A) paint scheme of the 1970s/early 1980s.
David
Yeah that orange was something. I guess a remnant of the 70's. I never saw a non-graffiti train with orange doors. But in most cases you could tell they were supposed to be orange, under all the graffiti. That's why the shuttle with the blue and qguq was pretty noticable. I think some of the R16's had gray doors, or they may have been the ones that never made it to orange. If I remember correctly some of the R27-30's also had some gray doored cars.
The orange-and-tan interior color scheme debuted on the R-33/R-36 ML trains when they went in for their air-conditioning retrofits starting in 1978. Supposedly that paint was more resistant to the cleaning fluids that were used to remove the graffiti than the pistachio green and gray paint the MTA began slapping on its cars in 1971.
The R-16 shuttle train's unique colors were actually closer to those the R-29/33/36s came with than what the R-16s originally had. Either way, they looked a lot better than either the 1978 colors or the 1971 combo (ANYTHING looked better than the 1971 combo...)
I remember R16's with the orange and grey door colors. While I won't swear to it, I'll bet the 6400 series cars were the ones with the grey doors, as they were mothballed when the orange scheme was debuted. I remember these grey doored R16's on the J line in 1984.
Am I right or am I just thinking of the R16's grey doors. Were there a few R27-30's with gray doors in the mid 80's. I think I remember a few, but again I may be thinking of the R16's.
Maybe the outside looked like this:
It's funny, I don't remember the outside at all, I was only about 10, but I remember the interior was very dark paint, and very aqua looking.
That's about right for 1982-83.
Right, R-17 6688, currently at Branford, did a tour of duty there in white, but got painted red before she left town in 1987.
Mr rt__:^)
This is true but the 42 Street R-17's always were in pretty good shape living in a protected environment and for several years were the only clean and graffiti-free cars on the IRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Then I raise the question:
Were they really "lemons," or were they just run into the ground?
A little of both. They were mechanically troublesome, but their lack of maintainence magnified these problems exponentially later in their lives.
Well, as May 20, 1970 they had 198 R-16s left; because that is when #6304 met the curtain wall head on west of Roosevelt Avenue, bumped out of the consist by the wayward nose of R40M #4501, whose blind eyes failed to see the "GG" train switching tracks in front of it.
wayne
I remember that one ... NOT pretty ...
Yes, #6304 got a faceful of concrete all right - left side of the car sheared off all the way back to the third door. Point of impact was just to the left (opposite of cab side) of the storm door. #4501, whose fiberglas bonnet and sign window were ruined (the seat opposite the cab was mangled), got herself fixed up and is still puttering around Eastern Division to this very day.
wayne
That wreck was a BIG piece of school car as the steam had barely stopped rising from that mess when I got the motor instructor beatings about "positive communications" in other than head end operation. That one event caused an entire cascade of TWU adventure with everybody pointing fingers everywhere and Ronan of course refusing to face reality. It ended up with a major overhaul of a quirky braking system in the original cars, everybody FINALLY getting a useless radio and no moves without command's approval. But the entire system was at war with itself over that and us TWU brothers had to decide between the "regulars" and the dissident "rank and file" group of the TWU which had a field day with this "we told you so" watershed event.
Bad things happen when you have to operate a train blind from the third car using only a flashlight and a prayer to make a move. I remember it well though. That one event probably did more for system safety than any other crash, and that includes Union Square. That wreck is WHY there's timers and blind trips in Queens ...
4501 probably wouldn't have been so lucky had it hit a BMT standard...
Werent't the R40M's renumbered after their GOH? IIRC, the R40 modifieds were numbered 4250 to 4349.
Yes, they were renumbered.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder if any of those 95 R-16s on the GG in 1970 were the same ones that were loaned to the IND in 1966 during the Jamaica Yard Crisis.
Steve: They probably were. The R-16's fleet at that time consisted of about 195 cars split between the EE and GG. I don't think that very strenuous efforts were made to keep the cars separate.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This car was supposedly "torn apart" by an explosion at the 125th St station in November 1960, and a woman passenger sitting above the bomb was killed. #3221 was supposed to have been repaired and retirned to service.
Does anyone have any further details of this tragic event?
Well the car was repaired and returned to service. Here it is in 1979. Note the WTC in the distance. This is at Smith-9th Streets.
As I've mentioned here before a few times, I'm leaning strongly toward moving to the Philadelphia area this spring or summer (or maybe even sooner if the opportunity presents itself). I've been looking at a few apartment complexes in the area on Apartments.com, and I found a place called Media Station that seems to have the features I want at a more-or-less reasonable rent. For those who are curious, here's the listing:
Media Station Apartments
(Hey, it's got a railroad-themed logo... Bonus points!)
According to the ad, it's within walking distance of the SEPTA R3 Regional Rail Line, another bonus.
Can anybody tell me anything more about this area? I was leaning toward living in the city, but just for kicks, I put the address into MapQuest and got an arial photo of the property (center) and surrounding area, and it actually looks like a fairly quiet, wooded setting. Given all I've been through over the past couple years, I'm thinking that might be a welcome change of scenery for a while. I assume that's the R3 line curving around across the photo? Is that a station there, where the road crosses the tracks? How nearby is the 101 Media route? According to the SEPTA website, Media is about 30 minutes from 30th Street Station on the R3. How long would it take to drive, in average traffic? What's Media like, and what sort of interesting stuff is in the area? I'm hoping somebody here who's more familiar with the area can fill me in a bit.
(And by the way, does anybody else find it very cool yet slightly unsettling that I can type an address and instantly get an arial photo of said address so easily?)
As always, thanks in advance...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Media is a suburban town outside of Philly. Being that I live in downtown philly, im not an exact expert on the area, but i am a news assignment editor in the area, and rarely does any crime headlines come from media.
I think Media is OK, but if you dont have a car, you want to have a place in the city. SEPTA has great service throughout in the city and in the closer burbs 24 hours, but it gets spotty late....so be careful about that.
....PS Media is not all burbs, it is a small town, and places 2 shop are available.
Roads from that area into the city are notoriously bad. The R3 is a good line and it hosts many old Silverliners. The media station building also houses an active interlocking tower. I would recomend the R3 over the Rt. 101 as the R3 is a one seat ride downtown, but the Rt 101 can get you to the big shopping complex around 69th St. terminal. The West Chester RR also runs some fan stuff out past Elwin. That area is very nice and just about the only downside are the abysmal traffic conditions (ie The Blue Rt, Rt 1 and PA 3 are all hell roads).
What Jersey Mike, you don't want to ride the Market Street El about 10 PM on a Friday or Saturday night?
I do some riding on the 'L' here in Chicago on the Southside, but it is always in the daylight, and in the first car.
I was held up between 63rd & 60th in 1969 by a gang of thugs, riding eastbound at about 6 PM. They were 15 or 16, there were five of them, and it happened very fast.
I never made the mistake of riding in the last car by myself again.
Jim Kramer
Assuming I'm working in/near Center City and going to school at Drexel, I'd most likely use the R3 for day-to-day commuting. My car would strictly be for shopping and pleasure driving, mostly on weekends. (If I end up working outside Center City, then all bets are off.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
David:
In all the years that I lived in Pennsylvania, Media was one town that I always wanted to live, but never quite made it. I had a few friends that lived there, but it never worked out because of my place of employment - i.e. a 35 mile one way commute. And that was before the Blue Route - I476 was finished. I say finished, because parts of it were started in the late 1950's and stopped by Mainline NIMBY's (still a lot of clout then). I think the bypass was finally finished in the late 80's.
Anyway, I actually knew someone who lived in the development you mention. It is you typical multi-family structure built in the 1970's IIRC. I know nothing of the property management there, and I've not been in Media except for an ERA convention trip in 1998.
Media is important in that it is the county seat for Delaware County.
Getting back to Media, it is served by the SEPTA Rt. 100 trolley (I spent many an hour after school riding this one). The line starts at 69th St., which means a ride out of the city on El would be involved. The trolley enters Media at Bowling Green, or Providence Road using State Street, which is more-or-less the main business drag. The paralleling Baltimore Pike (US Rt. 30) is the other main street. The trolley serves the downtown area.
The town is one of those you dream of, with side streets full of quaint houses, some containing apartments.
The ex-PRR line however enters Media south of the town center. Where the trolley ends at State & Orange Street, the walk to the now R3 Media station is downhill about .25 of a mile. Mapquest shows the distance between the apartment complex and State Street as .45 miles.
As SEPTA offers its very good bargain Trailpass (weekly or monthly) by zone, the fare via both modes of transportation is the same. The thing about the Trailpass, which is different to how fares work in RTA land, is the Trailpass is your one ticket for ALL SEPTA travel, Regional Rail, El, subway, streetcar, bus, Media, Norristown, & Sharon Hill trolleys. I think Media is in a zone #3, you can check out the prices of the Trailpass on the SEPTA Website.
Anyway, living in Media will require an automobile. In Pennsylvania that means annual state inspection of the vehicle. That is where you bring you car to a dealer/mechanic, and he knows you'll pay whatever to get that new sticker in the windshield, and get your car back. I remember when it was twice a year, so making it annual was helpful, but it is still holding your car hostage, and how much are you willing to pay to get it back. Only a brand new car makes it though state inspection without ANYTHING needing to be fixed. Auto insurance is expensive, but not so much as in the City of Philadelphia. If you're planning to work in the City, you must be aware of the 4.5% wage tax charged to all city workers/residents. Remember that when wages are an issue. That would also be a deciding factor whether to live in the city or not.
If I ever moved back to PA, I'd probably end up living in the City of Philadelphia. I can't even consider owning a car again (see above). The company I now work for in Chicago is headquartered north of Philadelphia - and of course, with inconvenient public transportation, so a transfer really isn't an option.
One other thing piece of information you should know about is that Philadelphia, and Southeast Pennsylvania in general, seems to be very cold when it comes to people. Many, many Germans, my ancestors included, choose this area to live. Germans, by nature, are typically less friendly. I remember once a remark that a friend of mind made, he'd transferred into the area from New Jersey After living in the area about 10-years "Jim, when do they start to accept you around here"? I knew exactly what he meant.
However, living in the Philadelphia area means you have the Amtrak NE corridor available to you. So, Washington, Baltimore, New York and Boston are only hours away.
Hope this helps you, and the best of luck on your decision.
Jim Kramer
former Pennsylvanian
I think the wage tax is deductable from state and fedral income taxes.
Mike:
That is only if you itemize your federal income taxes. It is not deductable from the 2.8%, or whatever the rate is today, that PA State taxes you for the priviledge of living there.
What you may be referring to is that most school districts in the counties surrounding Philadelphia have a 1% wage tax. If you pay the 4.5% to Philadelphia, the city then pays 1% to your local district. I think this still works this way.
Bottom line, it is something to keep in mind when negotiating wages.
Jim Kramer
In Pennsylvania that means annual state inspection of the vehicle.
Can you not evade this by having your car registered at a friend's house out-of-state? I know this is not the idea of the inspection, but I mean, don't lots of people do it?
...Philadelphia, and Southeast Pennsylvania in general, seems to be very cold when it comes to people.
It really depends on what you compare it to, and who you meet. I've met very friendly people in Southwestern PA, and also in Jersey -- within a PATCO ride of Philly. However the sort of surface acceptance you get instantaniously in some places (rural Indiana included) does mean that at a deeper level people hang on to their definition of themselves very dearly, and if you happen to violate that, then best of luck to you. I don't know if this is what the original poster was talking about, but that's my experience with Americans (and people in general) from all over the place. Really the trick is to understand what people's sensitivities are and just be careful.
I think that being from England, I find that everyone is more accepting to the crowd I grew up with, so I had no problem with Southeastern PA.
...the Amtrak NE corridor available to you. So, Washington, Baltimore, New York and Boston are only hours away.
Yup, hours away, and also $104 away. I just bought my BOS-WAS ticket and that was how much it came out. On the contrary, my PHL-CLE ticket was $11.70 (that was on sale though).
Lexcie
"Can you not evade this by having your car registered at a friend's house out-of-state? I know this is not the idea of the
inspection, but I mean, don't lots of people do it? "
Not only would the state take a dim view of that, but so would the insurer.
You can evade lots of things (taxes, auto registration, fares on commuter trains, paying for things at the cash register) but that doesn't make it a good idea.
Can you not evade this by having your car registered at a friend's house out-of-state? I know this is not the idea of the inspection, but I mean, don't lots of people do it?
Not only would the state take a dim view of that, but so would the insurer.
You can evade lots of things (taxes, auto registration, fares on commuter trains, paying for things at the cash register) but that
doesn't make it a good idea.
Registering cars out of state has long been a common practice in Connecticut, where cars are subject to a substantial personal property tax. Most people use vacation houses or relatives' addresses to register their vehicles. Because the tax rates vary by municipality, sometimes considerably, some people take the slightly less drastic step of registering their cars in Connecticut, as opposed to other states, but in different towns.
I have not heard of any insurance complications with this sort of scheme, although people can get hit with substantial bills for back taxes if caught.
In the event your insurance company discovers that you are regularly garaging your vehicle somewhere other than where you've stated on your policy, they have the option of cancelling your policy or billing you for the difference in premium, retroactive to the effective date of the policy.
If the discovery of the false address comes as the result of investigation of a claim that has been filed, the options an insurer has are a bit more limited...
In the event of a comprehensive or collision claim, the insurer can deny the claim or subtract the premium which would have been owed from the claim payment.
On a liability claim, most states require the insurer to pay the injured third party and then pursue recovery from their policyholder.
CG
> In Pennsylvania that means annual state inspection of the vehicle.
> Can you not evade this by having your car registered at a friend's
> house out-of-state? I know this is not the idea of the
> inspection, but I mean, don't lots of people do it?
Sure, you could do that. But I hope you're never in an accident with someone who does this and they are at fault. When their insurance company finds out they've been lying about their primary garaging of their car and where they use it, their policy will be cancelled and you'll be S.O.L. trying to reclaim money from them. On the other hand these kind of people love to settle in cash up front.
Also, since the nearest state to that part of PA -- NJ -- has bi-yearly inspection and higher insurance rates anyway, why would you even bother.
Also, since the nearest state to that part of PA -- NJ -- has bi-yearly inspection and higher insurance rates anyway, why would you even bother.
In spite of New Jersey being notorious for having the highest car insurance rates in the country, many Philly residents surrepticiously register their cars in South Jersey for the lower rates.
Inspection is now every other year, so some cars will fall apart between inspections.
Having just moved from Queens to Brooklyn, and having had my auto insurance jump a whopping 30%, New Jerseyans can just cry me a river about their insurance rates. Sure, on average, New Jersey has the highest insurance rates, but that's only because it is a small, populous state sandwiched between to large cities. When you average places like Plattsburg with New York City, of course New York has better rates, but where you live in New York makes a BIG difference! I doubt any one car-owner in Jersey is paying more than I am to insure a brand new, black, American-made compact car.
From a practical standpoint, I fail to see how moving from areas with the same relative population density and within the same city causes this 30% increase, but the formulas the insurance companies use are their own. I think it goes by zip-code, and I have the bad luck of living in a zip-code with historically costly drivers.
As far as inspections go, I was surprised while spending Christmas in Ohio to find that that state has no auto inspection whatsoever. Judging from other messages in this thread, that seems to be the case in the midwest. Having grown up in PA, lived in Virginia, DC, and NJ, I just assuemd all states had annual inspections. Be glad there's no personal property tax on cars in PA/NJ/NY. Virginia's political campaigns of late have been shaped by the issue of repealing the car tax there.
Having just moved from Queens to Brooklyn, and having had my auto insurance jump a whopping 30%, New Jerseyans can just cry me a river about their insurance rates.
I recall reading a very interesting statistic some time ago. On a nationwide basis, X percent* of multi-vehicle motor vehicle crashes result in personal injury lawsuits. In Brooklyn, however, about 2X percent of multi-vehicle motor vehicle crashes result in personal injury lawsuits. Put another way, Brooklynites are about twice as suit-happy as typical Americans, who of course are hardly suit-adverse themselves. Sky-high insurance rates naturally follow. What is particularly ludicrous about the whole matter is that multi-vehicle crashes in Brooklyn are almost certainly less likely to result in significant injuries than in most other parts of the country, given lower urban speeds.
* = Needless to say, I don't remember what X was, but it's really not relevant for the point I'm trying to make.
"Put another way, Brooklynites are about twice as suit-happy as typical Americans".
Actually, it's worse than that. Consider that New York has a "no-fault" law, which is supposed to eliminate the ability to sue except in the most serious cases. Most other states do not. The biggest issue in Brooklyn (and to a lesser extent, the Bronx and Queens) auto insurance rates are the number of chiropractor visits, MRI's and other soft tissue related injury treatments which are paid for by no-fault coverage, and then used as documentation that a "serious" injury has occurred thereby allowing the lawsuit.
Without the no-fault law, 2X would likely by 3X or more -- but overall costs might be lower.
CG
"From a practical standpoint, I fail to see how moving from areas with the same relative population density and within the same city causes this 30% increase, but the formulas the insurance companies use are their own. I think it goes by zip-code, and I have the bad luck of living in a zip-code with historically costly drivers"
Actually, in New York it's the state that limits the way insurers can rate auto insurance by location. Queens has two territories (effectively western and eastern Queens). Brooklyn has always been one territory, and political influences have conspired to keep it that way.
The size of the differential between Brooklyn and Queens has developed over the last 10-15 years -- a not so surprising correlation with the rise in influence of Russian organized crime in that borough.
CG
As far as inspections go, I was surprised while spending Christmas in Ohio to find that that state has no auto inspection whatsoever. Judging from other messages in this thread, that seems to be the case in the midwest. Having grown up in PA, lived in Virginia, DC, and NJ, I just assuemd all states had annual inspections. Be glad there's no personal property tax on cars in PA/NJ/NY. Virginia's political campaigns of late have been shaped by the issue of repealing the car tax there.
Connecticut has an annual emissions test (a total scam), but safety inspections are required only when registering vehicles over ten years old. As I mentioned elsewhere, Connecticut also has a very burdensome personal property tax on cars, yet for some reason it hasn't become much of a political issue, at least not yet.
Regarding New York safety inspections, the conventional wisdom is to pick carefully the place where you bring your car for inspection. There is a definite advantage to being a steady customer of a garage that's authorized to perform inspections. And never bring your car to a dealer for inspection, as invariably they'll discover a problem that will be costly to fix.
And never bring your car to a dealer for inspection, as invariably they'll discover a problem that will be costly to fix.
Interestingly enough, that's not the case in North Carolina. Down there, if you don't have an established relationship with an independent mechanic, a franchised dealership is the safest place to go. A lot of quick-change oil franchises also do inspections, and they're pretty reliable, although they also sell a lot of wiper blades :-) I usually replace my blades, if they're at all questionable, right before inspection, and then go to the quick-change place, since my regular mechanic doesn't do inspections; when my wife is taking one of our cars in, though, I have her go to the Ford dealer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From a practical standpoint, I fail to see how moving from areas with the same relative population density and within the same city causes this 30% increase...
Of course, you are free to choose not to move to that area, or take out insurance with a different firm who may or may not charge you less, or you may drive uninsured and risk the consequences. Or indeed you can choose to part with your automobile. I think that's the strength of the American system -- you almost always have a choice.
In Europe, they screw you twice over: first of all, they tax you like hell just so they can provide a transit system; then they provide an ineffective transit system so you have to buy a car; then they make legislation that require you to have motor insurance; then they make insurance rates the same wherever you go so that you don't have the option of moving to a lower-crime-rate area... etc. etc. It's even worse with healthcare -- they take $ off your paycheck to pay for the care for chain-smokers and other people who don't take care of themselves...
In california you have to pass a smog test every 2 years ( unless you car is a diesel or 1973 & older ).......... i got a diesel .....lol
!!
I remember the auto insurance NIGHTMARE in atlanta georgia whew !! & having to have a p.o. box OUTSIDE atlanta in order
to afford the state min. ....( marta was still under construction then & i guess now ) The buses really SUCKED big time back then
1983 1988 & auto ins. was way 2 HIGH !! .....yuck !!
& the auto insurance ( checkpoints )"crackdowns in the black sides of town only" like east point college park etc..
Cali-, anit no picnic either however being RETIRED you can get a break ....
The PE system is gone & the laRy as well...
That was the plan all the time destroy all RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS NATIONWIDE !!
In california you have to pass a smog test every 2 years ( unless you car is a diesel or 1973 & older ).......... i got a diesel .....lol
You have a diesel GM? Sorry, man... <g>
...i got a diesel...
When did you trade? Last week you had a 307 Olds engine in your Chevy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess you believe people with tuberculosis should be left to cough into your face in a crowded elevator, or in crowded schoolhouse hallways.
An article I read some time ago said that tobacco taxes fully cover the extra social costs tobacco use entails -- including health care. Ditto for alcohol taxes.
then they make legislation that require you to have motor insurance
Which is the case in nearly all states of the US. That doesn't mean that there aren't drivers driving unregistered/uninsured cars.
"I think the bypass was finished in the late 80's"
Close, The enitire thing was finally finished and opened in December of '92. They've already started re-numbering the exits and they make absolutely noe sense. Go figure.
I believe, though not certain, that PA exit re-numbering is statewide. Drivers from other states have always thought PA's sequential exit numbering was confusing, since many surrounding states number their exits using milage from the border. PA has finally decided to follow suit. For example, on my drive back to NYC from vacation, I noticed I-78 has renumbered their exits using milage, but most signs have a smaller sign mounted below indicating the "old" exit number. This actually makes much more sense. When you build a new exit, you just number it according to the mile marker, instead of having to make it EXIT 8-A to differentiate it from EXIT 8. The exception is the PA Turnpike, which is run not by PennDOT, but by the Turnpike Commission. In fact, I think the other Interstates in PA used the turnpike as a model in their original, sequential exit-numbering scheme. New Jersey acted accordingly. The "8-A" example above is from the NJ Turnpike's Cranberry exit, which I assume was added sometime after exit 8, Hightstown.
On my post 9/11 drive across the country, I noticed that I-80 exits have been renumbered based on mileage as well.
CG
On my post 9/11 drive across the country, I noticed that I-80 exits have been renumbered based on mileage as well.
Ditto for I-70 from Denver to the Pennsylvania Turnpike, on my September drive home... although I think there may have been one state where that wasn't true... not sure though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In california you have to pass a smog test every 2 years ( unless you car is a diesel or 1973 & older ).......... i got a diesel .....lol !!
I remember the auto insurance NIGHTMARE in atlanta georgia whew !! & having to have a p.o. box OUTSIDE atlanta in order to afford the state min. ....( marta was still under construction then & i guess now ) The buses really SUCKED big time back then 1983 1988 & auto ins. was way 2 HIGH !! .....yuck !!
& the auto insurance ( checkpoints )"crackdowns in the black sides of town only" like east point college park etc..
Cali-, anit no picnic either however being RETIRED you can get a break ....
The PE system is gone & the laRy as well...
That was the plan all the time destroy all RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS NATIONWIDE !!
I think the other posters have done a good job of describing Media.
I will remind you that you will feel a little more constricted in your travels. Chicago has much better subway coverage than Philadelphia, and while SEPTA commuter rail does a decent job of covering other Philly neighborhoods, it offers only hourly rail service most of the time.
Bus service is pretty decent in the city, but I don't know much about the suburban division.
I don't know much about your budget. For comparison sake, have you considered neighborhoods along the Schuylkill, like Bala Cynwyd, or Manayunk and Roxborough? Also, older sections of Germantown have big beautiful houses on generous lots for not a lot of money - and heavy bus services, along with the R-8 line, are nearby. Another attraction is that you can walk into Fairmount Park from there. Fairmount Park is an urban green wilderness that runs for 7 miles (and you forget you're in the city). I am in the midst of moving there - my neighbors will include a member of the Philadelphia orchestra, lawyers, doctors, clothing designers, teachers and realtors...
Ron, are you Bayside as in SFO or Bayside as in Masschusetts Bay? If you're from here, we're sad to lose you from Boston! heh!
I lived in Bayside, Queens until Jan of 2001. Then my wife got a new job and we moved to Philly. I'm living in Manayunk, but we're trying to buy a house...
About 20 years ago, i lived in Manayunk back in the day when it was still a real working-class community. I remember the commute was horrible. Take the R6 to the El, take it to 5th, and walk down to the station on South Street. Took me the better part of an hour. Of course, this was back in the day when the Cynwyd train still ran across that big concrete bridge over the Schuylkill to Manayunk. Its a wonder the cynwyd line still runs....they only get about 300 riders a day
... does anybody else find it very cool yet slightly unsettling that I can type an address and instantly get an arial photo of said address so easily?
No. What are you going to do with an aerial photo?
If you're going to bomb the s**t out of the place, what good would an aerial photo do? Wouldn't driving directions be more useful?
Lexcie
I was thinking more along the lines of privacy issues.
Example:
1) Lady gives you her phone number, or you otherwise find it out.
2) Go to some website like Verizon.com and do a reverse look-up of the number, which gives you the street address.
3) Go to MapQuest and get an arial photo of her house and neighborhood.
What could you actually do with this photo once you have it? Well, probably not much, but it all just seems a little too easy, and slightly creepy.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(And by the way, does anybody else find it very cool yet slightly unsettling that I can type an address and instantly get an arial photo of said address so easily?)
Nope, if someone wanted to kill you, they'd have the address anyway, so they'd go to your house. I guess spying could be a problem for the paranoid. The really detailed ones aren't availible to the public (for free, anyway).
Aerial photos like that made primarly for surveying purposes. A low flying plane takes the pictures. The process is called Aerial Photogrammetry. Most state gov'ts (plus the USGS) have an agency that does this. They sell the photos, which are way more detailed than what you can find at Mapquest and other places, to engineering firms so that they won't need to go through the expense of paying a surveying crew to traverse the area.
I'm visiting Salt Lake, and drove out around the light rail line, which apparently shares trackage with a frieght railroad. There were at least 10 active industrial spurs I spotted along the line, all signalled.
My question is:
Does UTA-Trax have to be an FRA "railroad" to haul freight like that?
It was kinda interesting. I got visions of steeple cabs pulling the cuts of cars around....
Dave
I believe they have to use time of day separation between
the freight and passenger traffic. That freight operation
is presumably not just local but has interchange with the
national network, so you bet the FRA is involved.
They most likely got a waiver from the FRA, as the Baltimore MTA did.
I'm not sure how, but even after the BWI bang-bangs the waiver continued and was even renewed.
I think one other Light Rail line has an FRA waiver for freight operations as well, but the info escapes me at the moment.
That other system is San Diego Trolley. The freights may operate only between certrain hours, and if they are out in, for instance, El Cajon, when their time is up, that's where they have to park the loco so the Trolley can start operation.
Interesting. I have personally witnessed the NS (Ex-CRR/CSX) stone train running southbound out of Timonium with an LRV following right behind (1 signal block) it. This was at 7:15 AM on a weekday rush hour. The LRV service starts at 5:45 AM. The train has also gone north while the cars are still running at 1:15 AM (on ballgame nights).
Shakes up the passengers waitng on the (low-level) platforms on the lime.
And for decades, ending in 1973, the Chicago Transit Authority and predecessors hauled carload freight from a Milwaukee Road interchange at Buena Yard to several customers along the North Side "L." I believe freight operations took place mostly if not entirely at night, on the westernmost of the four tracks.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Don't forget the Newark City Subway, which now shares a stretch of track with the Orange Branch. Once revenue service to the last two stations begins -- supposedly w/i a few weeks -- that will also be a time share arrangement.
There is also a diesel LRT system being built from Camden to Trenton that will use this arrangement.
When the IND Sixth Avenue line opened in 1940, it provided local service only. The express service I believe began in 1968 or 1969.
Three questions:
1. Is the express section of this line in a seperate tunnel from the local tracks?
2. If so, was it constructed in the 1960's or was it built earlier or at the time of the original construction(1930's)?
2a. If the tunnel pre-dates the 60's, did it contain the tracks already laid?
3. Why a long gap in establishing an express service on the 6th Ave Line?
Thanks,
Tunnel Rat
>>> Is the express section of this line in a seperate tunnel from the local tracks? <<<
Yes
THIS should answer most of your other questions.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
Thanks Andee. I didn't know the lower level was constructed with an option to convert to an express stop! Now I'll have hives until the express resume running, and I can get an eyeball full of the tunnel construction.
That would kill the dash, but a 14th St express makes a little bit of sense.
avid
It's pretty interesting that both 14 & 23 have provisions to be converted to express stations if need arises. I can understand 14, because of it's connection to the L, but why 23?. Actually the 6th Ave express is not really an express anyway, it basically stops at every station. (even when running properly with the MB) Most of the stations are "express stations" 14 and 23 are the only local stations anyway.
23rd has the connection with PATH
Yeah, but so do 14th and 34th!
- Lyle Goldman
1) The express tracks are seperate from the local tracks between 34 and W4 sts. They're lower than the local tracks.
2)& 3) When the line was being built, express tracks were planned. NYC was going to take over the H&M (now PATH) tracks and use them. But those tunnels were built for cars that were shorter than the IND cars. For the sake of money (there was a deppression going on) work was put off for another time.
Thanks.
One question not answered yet.
Was the physical tunnel for the express tracks built in the 30's or did the TA actually build/excavate this tunnel in the 60's? My father had a business along 6th Ave and, during the sixties, I would as a child visit him there. I was too young to remember actual scenes of construction--if built then and not the 30's, it must have been quite an engineering feat what with the increased auto and bus traffic on the street above and despite not having the El of 30 years earlier. I do understand that the tracks were laid out in the 60's, but perhaps the tunnel was built then as well.
Tunnel Rat
It was dug in the 60s. There was a shaft on w12th St for the removal of debrie and entrance of building material. It was just west of 6th Ave IIRC.
avid
As I understand it, a tunnel was planned in the 1930's. However with the H&M tubes there and the fact the tunnels were built to specs for H&M trains, which were shorter than the IND, the plans were scraped. In the 1960's when the express tunnel was built, It was built below where the tracks along 6th Ave are now. Probably in the 1930's, all that was built were tunnel leads at the s/e of 34/6 and the n/e of W4.
As I understand it, a tunnel was planned in the 1930's. However with the H&M tubes there and the fact the tunnels were built to specs for H&M trains, which were shorter than the IND, the plans were scraped. In the 1960's when the express tunnel was built, It was built below where the tracks along 6th Ave are now. Probably in the 1930's, all that was built were tunnel leads at the s/e of 34/6 and the n/e of W4.
Huh. That would have been a NON-trivial thing to construct, putting express tracks under the IND Sixth Ave local/PATH combo ... woof. Esp since they couldn't just deep-tunnel 'em since 23rd and 14th both can be converted to express and hence have to be directly below the locals.
I've seen a lot about the Chrystie Connector happening in the Sixties, but hadn't known at all about this. Were there other little "fixes" or tweaks that got done at the same time?
Incidentally, it's been widely said that building the IND through Herald Square was the single most challenging piece of subway construction ever done in NYC (since BMT and PATH already existed there).
Incidentally, it's been widely said that building the IND through Herald Square was the single most challenging piece of subway construction ever done in NYC (since BMT and PATH already existed there).
And they had to support the old 6th Ave el in the 30's also, and I believe trolly lines! Very complex construction.
And they had to support the old 6th Ave el in the 30's also, and I believe trolly lines! Very complex construction.
Don't forget 4 LIRR/PRR tracks, too!
That's right! A real nightmare. It's a good thing that they built it back then, think of the cost of that line now, even without the el and trolly tracks there. It probably would not have been built in the present, even though it is a very important line!
Which is why I think the original IND builders erred in basing the first system on an 8th Ave/6th Ave trunk. I think an 8th Ave/2nd Ave system would've been better. The Broadway line basically paralells the current 6th Ave. line, and the city probably knew they were eventually going to take it over.
Which is why I think the original IND builders erred in basing the first system on an 8th Ave/6th Ave trunk. I think an 8th Ave/2nd Ave system would've been better. The Broadway line basically paralells the current 6th Ave. line, and the city probably knew they were eventually going to take it over.
Hmmmm. OTOH, more pressure to build on Sixth due to Rockefeller Center opening and the realization that a subway would allow them to tear down the Sixth Avenue El and make all that midtown land VERRRRRRY valuable to real estate developers ... and hence improve tax values, leading to more revenue for the city. (More proportionately than on 2nd Ave which is mostly too far east to be part of CBD.)
'Course, then they tore down the Second Avenue El anyway.
I'm *still* fascinated by the notion of the Sixth Avenue line without express service until the mid-Sixties between 34th and 4th. Wow.
It's hard to imagine the sixth Avenue without express, or never built. It seems like such an important line! But I guess if 2 Ave was built in the 30's, we couldn't imagine not having that either. It's another important project, that is very long overdue.
The 6th Avenue express is one of the least important express runs in the system. It only skips two stops. Notice that it's not in use now. Four tracks are necessary for the Chrystie Street connection to work, but otherwise it's pretty unimportant.
No I mean the whole 6 Ave line not there. I meant it is two seperate what ifs. 1. Not having the whole line, or 2. not having the expansion to 4 tracks in the 60's. Yes, the "express" is a joke , but it increasaes the capacity of the line by two tracks. Imagine if 6 Ave was only two tracks permanently. It would forever be like it is now with the MB closed. That capacity is a neccesity, even if the express only skips 23 and 14.
But the connection to the Manhattan Bridge didn't open until 1967. So why is it so odd that there was no express until 1967? The two local tracks sufficed.
I guess the 4 Broadway tracks can handle the traffic, but do you really think that the current service is better than when the MB is fully open and 6 Ave service uses all 4 tracks and Broadway uses all 4 tracks? The way things are now with the MB closed are a shadow of the real service before the construction. (It was just as bad when Broadway lost it's MB tracks)
And to think that when they opened the Christie St connection (before which service from deKalb was very much similar to what it is now) so many people complained about the reuction in service!
>>> I think the original IND builders erred in basing the first system on an 8th Ave/6th Ave trunk. <<<
It is only an error when you apply 20/20 hindsight. The purpose of those lines was to put the Ninth and Sixth Avenue Els out of business. They succeeded in that. The Second System would have provided the new line to the East side of Manhattan. The original builders believed along with most of the isolationist country in the ‘30s that we would not be drawn into any of the problems in Europe or Asia, and therefore the Second System would be built in the ‘40s.
Tom
Actually, I was proposing that a 2nd Ave/8th Ave "H" system not unlike the IRT would be the only 2 Manhattan IND trunk lines. The 6th Ave line was extremely difficult and paralleled by the Broadway BMT.
Which is why I think the original IND builders erred in basing the first system on an 8th Ave/6th Ave trunk. I think an 8th Ave/2nd Ave system would've been better. The Broadway line basically paralells the current 6th Ave. line, and the city probably knew they were eventually going to take it over.
There is also a high pressure water main coming from upstate under there. Water Tunnel #1 I think.
There is also a high pressure water main coming from upstate under there. Water Tunnel #1 I think.
And they broke it during the construction of the express tracks.
Someone (not me!) should assemble all the information presented here and update the FAQ on the Herald Sq station, and all the complexities involved in their building.
Does anyone actually know how they addressed the complexities, especially when building the express tracks in the 1960s? Some questions I'd like to hear the answers to are:
- How did they build the express tunnels directly below the local or PATH tunnels all the way from 31st down to 8th St. without stopping local or PATH service?
- At 31st Street, how did they get the express tunnels under the PATH (which terminates at about 31st St) but above the LIRR without disruption?
- What is the track arrangement at 14th St.? Do the express tracks tunnel below the L tracks?
- How do you get out of the PATH at 14th Street on the uptown side? The PATH tracks are inside the local IND tracks, but somehow you wind up on the street on the east side of 6th Ave., not on a mezzanine. There must be some kind of enclosed catwalk over the uptown local IND track.
The IND station at 34 St - Herald Square was originally built as a 4 track station. It extends from about 33 St to 35 St. If you look along the platform from the north end (35th St) you can see where it dives under the Broadway BMT at 34 St, and then rises up at 33 St to clear the LIRR & Amtrak Tunnels which cross under at 33 and 32 Sts. Fortunately, the LIRR and Amtrak tunnels are deep enough so that the IND subway was able to cross over the LIRR and Amtrak tunnels and, at the same time, pass under the PATH tracks which end at 33 St. The IND local tracks then rise to just below street level at 23 St, flanking both sides of the PATH tracks, which run down the middle of 6th Ave. The IND express tunnel from 33 St to 8th St was built as a "deep rock" tunnel, far enough below both the IND local and PATH tracks so as not to interfere with service on those lines, except for the 2 week disruption in 1962 caused by a water main break which Stephen Bauman pointed out above.
At 14 St the IND express tracks pass under the L tracks, which, in turn, pass under the IND local and PATH tracks. The IND platform extends north from 14 St, while the PATH platform extends south, so there's no need for PATH passengers to cross over or under the IND platform.
Heading south from 14 St the IND local tracks dive down to the express level, at the same time the PATH tracks drop down one level. In this way, the 8th Ave IND tracks coming in from Greenwich Ave are able to pass over the PATH tracks, which in turn, pass over the IND 6th Ave tracks as the PATH turns down Christopher St.
As you can see, the 6th Ave subway is a remarkable example of civil engineering and construction.
PATH 14th Street customers exit ro rhe street heading towards 33rd and share a common exit with the subway heading towards New Jersey. To enter PATH to NJ, you go upstairs to the Sixth Ave subway mezzanine, exit the turnstile and then go down the stairs to PATH.
Victor M,
Fascinating, fascinating, fascinating! Thank you and the others for giving a detailed account of the 6th Ave physical layout that seems to be missing or incomplete in every written work about this. I wonder why Brennan, Fischler, or Cudahy never put in a graphic illustrating the actual physical layout of what route goes under/over/alongside what in regard to 6th Ave. Now we have it, and thanks to ST'ers. I hope this gets placed in FAQs and gets digitally illustrated in Peter Donoghue's Track Maps.
Thanks again,
Tunnel Rat
Indeed. The 6thAv spaghetti, and how it came to be, does need some explanation, and this is the site to do it.
The A&E Documentary "Subway" had a great graphic of the "spaghetti", as you called it.
Also, a short description of the line, and a detailed timeline of construction of the IND is available in my history of the IND right on this site!
--Mark
Thanks for a very detailed response.
I was in the neighborhood of 14th and 6th just now so I thought I'd take a look at the levels there. There are tracks on 4 different levels!
The mezzanine with fare control is down about 20 feet. The F tracks are down another level, maybe another 15 feet. The PATH is behind the wall of the mezzanine, 20 feet down, one level above the F. To exit from the northbound PATH you go eastward and up 2 steps, crossing over the northbound F tracks (without seeing them, of course).
Then of course the L is down a level below the F, and the express tracks are yet another level (or more) below that.
In cross-section looking from the east you have:
6th Ave-->--------14th----6th Ave->
--PATH platform ----F Mezzanine----
--------------------F platform-----
-------------------L---------------
----------express tracks-----------
I like your graphic! I wonder why they didn't connect the northbound PATH platform with the northbound F mezzanine they way they did in the southbound direction. If they did, PATH pasengers from New Jersey could connect with the F or L without having to go above ground in inclement weather. By the way, did you notice that long corridor under 14th St to 7th Ave that enables a free transfer between the 1,2 and 3, and the L and F? You access it from the L platform just west of 6th Avenue.
"I wonder why they didn't connect the northbound PATH platform with the northbound F mezzanine they way they did in the southbound direction."
I'm guessing that the stairs that lead from the southeast corner of 6th and 14th directly down to the L (without going via the F east mezzanine, which only starts on the north side of 14th) get in the way.
As you know, it's a very complicated station and would take some thorough exploring to really understand. I only looked at it from outside fare control this evening.
I think you already understand it very well. One time I helped some tourists go from the L platform to the New Jersey-bound PATH platform. They found it hard to believe when I told them "It's about four flights up, then down a corridor", but I showed them the way.
"I wonder why they didn't connect the northbound PATH platform with the northbound F mezzanine they way they did in the southbound direction."
I'm guessing that the stairs that lead from the southeast corner of 6th and 14th directly down to the L (without going via the F east mezzanine, which only starts on the north side of 14th) get in the way.
I suspect it has to do with pre-existing building on the site. There's an old department store there (just converted to very pricey condos) which contains the PATH entrance but could well pre-date PATH and clearly pre-dates the BMT and IND. It's old enough where it might even have sidewalk vaults. I bet that the construction to do what you're talking about would use chunks of their basement.
That's pretty complex there also. So the 6 Ave exprss tracks are below the F tracks?
This can't be referring to Water Tunnel #1. That is extremely deep (hundreds of feet deep). Also, there was no redundancy at the time. If the main tunnel had been breached hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers would have been without water.
It must be some other sizeable water main but not the primary tunnel.
Water Tunnel #1 is under 6th Avenue. The main valve room is located somewhere in the vicinity of 39th or 40th street, I believe.
However, the water main that was damaged was not Water Tunnel #1. Had it been, the city would have had to close the gate valves in the main valve room. Because of lack of maintenance (simply because they could not shut off the water), it is likely that they could not have reopened the valves any time soon!
Once Water Tunnel #3 is operational, the city will redo #1's valves.
How far along are they on tunnel #3? It seems like they have been working on it for a long time. When is the estimated time of completion?
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dep/html/watersup.html
You have to remind yourself that this is one of the *great* civil engineering feats of all times, ranking with the pyramids.
And look at what's on the tunnel floor in this photo. Until water starts flowing through it, it's the city's deepest subway line! :)
Looks like the London Tube on steroids. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Looks like a nightmare I have sometimes.
Yes. Looking at the ultra-deep boring for this water tunnel, you wonder why there has not been discussion of building a subway line way down deep; super-long escalator runs could let a station serve a 15 or 20 or more block radius.
I wonder if anyone on here can compare the costs of deep drilling a tube through solid rock as opposed to the more traditional cut & cover subway construction method.
Another factor is the cost of escalators and elevators plus the cost of ventilation and emergecny evcauation of deep stations. Now if the elevators at 168 are out they close they station and police lead customers up the emergency stairs which are dimly lit and full of switchbacks. I dont have figures but I think a deep bored tunnel would be deeper than that. I think 168 is 6-8 stories down, can you imagine walking up 20 or more floors to exit in emergencies. I wouldnt want to work there when it happened.
BTW- all NYCT elevator deep stations have emergency stairways. They are behind marked doors and are sypposed to be locked but many times homeless move into the stairways. Where are the stairways-- look near the elevator shafts and you'll see the doorways.
Looking at the ultra-deep boring for this water tunnel, you wonder why there has not been discussion of building a subway line way down deep; super-long escalator runs could let a station serve a 15 or 20 or more block radius.
For very long-distance trains, maybe, but what's the use of taking a 12-minute journey on a subway if it takes 8 minutes each way to get to/from the platform? That's my main gripe about the London Underground: The deep-tunneled stations are deep enough that it takes more time to get up and down than the ride takes.
And how would it change matters when the water does start flowing? When was the last time you looked down at your friendly subway tracks?
One would imagine that when WT #3 is filled with water, no one would be able to ride a train down there (unless you've been genetically enhanced with lungs?)
You mean the R-142's aren't water-tight?
(I certainly wouldn't want to ride an R-40 down there.)
It's scheduled for completion in 2020, but I heard it's slightly ahead of schedule.
Now why ain't I surprised?
Whoops!
14 St was meant to have been an express stop. 23 St wasn't. But it was done because H&M was right behind the wall. And still is! NYC didn't force them out because it would have cost money to rebuild the tunnels. It was the depression at the time. At the time LaGuardia had to get money from Washington DC to finish what projects were already underway. The IND Second System was never built because the city did not have the money for it. It finished what it built because it was already committed to doing it. But they had to scale back plans for the lines it was building. The A line only went to Rockaway Ave. The E and F went to Roosevelt. Extentions for the the subway that we know now wasn't built after that until after WW2.
23 St wasn't. But it was done because H&M was right behind the wall. And still is!
Which side? North or southbound platform? I wonder why they never made a connection to Path's station.
When you enter the station at 23 St, it is the wall in front of you looking from the turnstiles. And this is from both platforms. Also at 23 St there is an entrance to the PATH train from inside the IND station.
The A line only went to Rockaway Ave. The E and F went to Roosevelt. Extentions for the the subway that we know now wasn't built after that until after WW2
The Queens IND was operating as far as 169th St and the Fulton St IND to Broadway/East NY as late as 1945.
It's quite remarkable how much subway construction there really was in the 1960s. While it's true that most of the sytem was built pre-1940, popular mythology is that practically nothing was built after WW2.
In fact, we got:
1) Connection of the McDonald Ave El to the IND (although, eventually, the connection to the 4th Ave BMT was destroyed)
2) Connection of the Queens Blvd Line to the BMT.
3) Rockaway line and completion of the Fulton Street IND
4) 179th/Hillside Avenue Station
5) The Chrystie Street Project, including 2 new stations (57th/6th, Grand Street), 6th Avenue "dash".
6) IRT Station at 148th/Lenox
7) Archer Avenue extension, inlcuding 3 new stations
8) Finally, the 63rd Street line, including service to Roosevelt Island, with pretty decent provsions for connections to a Second Avenue Subway
In total, not too bad, really.......
7) Archer Avenue extension, inlcuding 3 new stations
8) Finally, the 63rd Street line, including service to Roosevelt Island, with pretty decent provsions for connections to a Second Avenue Subway.
Unless you mean all construction since the 60's, these two lines were done in the late 80's. I guess the 70's is what really messed up any expansion.
The Archer Avenue project started in 1972, though planning had been underway for several years beforehand. The 63rd Street project started in 1969, though, again, it had been planned for several years. The segments OPENED in the late 1980s but had actually been under construction for a good long time.
David
The time frame cited should give SubTalkers a conception that even if construction of the Second Ave. subway began today, it would be a good long time till it opens for service. At my age, almost 49, I am certain that I will not see any more new subway routes opened up in this town. Perhaps I will see the LIRR extension to GCT tho.
I'm 29 and I'm not that optomistic either. Perhaps I'll ride the "stubway" to my grandchild's college graduation.
16 %$#@$ years to build 3 stops from Jamaica Van/Wyck to Parson/Archer, plus a ramp up to the J line. Considering that the entire 8th Ave line in Manhattan was constructed in half that time, I wonder how long it might take to construct a full length 2nd Ave line...
We'll all be dead.
It is a nice list, but you're talking 35 years here. Fulton St. extension of the A was 1956 and therefore work started earlier. Culver extension of the F was the 50s too. Archer Ave. finished in 1988, I believe.
Also, not to be ignored, making 59th and Lex an express station, in the early 60s. Quite a project too.
Culver extension of (what is now) the F actually was nearly complete in 1941, but it didn't open until 1954.
David
Also, not to be ignored, making 59th and Lex an express station, in the early 60s. Quite a project too.
I didn't know this. Bloomie's basement was originally a local stop?
Yup. To ease overcrowding caused by the new 11th St cut allowing access to 59th/Lex by Queens IND riders, the lower platform was built around 1960. Before the rehab, this platform's age was obvious, with the ugly green tiles used in similiar stations of the period (Grant Ave. comes to mind). Prior to this time, 59th St on the IRT was a local only stop.
Which made for one helluva run on a Lexington Ave. express. I hear the Lo-Vs used to smoke that run.
IIRC, the Culver/IND connection was pretty much built before we entered WWII, having construction interrupted when it was almost complete. All the platforms had been extended for 600' trains by then.
The steelwork for the IND ramp was in place, but wasn't tied into the Culver line itself.
Items 2,3, and 4 were completed and operational in the '50s. I remember the subway maps prior to opening had dotted lines to show under construction. The lines after opening had multi-coloured lines to show dual service on Queens Blvd. IND?BMT service. Standards did run on QB.
avid
When the line was being built, express tracks were planned. NYC was going to take over the H&M (now PATH) tracks and use them.
So were the express leads from the IND Herald Square station aligned so they COULD feed into PATH tracks. Now there's an amazing thought: IND to Jersey!
But those tunnels were built for cars that were shorter than the IND cars. For the sake of money (there was a deppression going on) work was put off for another time.
But ... I assumed PATH tunnels (essentially IRT spec) can't handle B division cars 'cause of girth, not station length? Wouldn't they have had to re-engineer all the tunnels? Or were they ONLY going to use the Sixth Avenue portions of the line, perhaps turning Christopher into a terminus?
Probably H&M would have terminated at Christopher St. Then again Hylan probably had ideas about doing away with H&N as well as BRT/BMT and IRT. Hylan wanted to build a modern subway. Cutting edge and state-of-the-art. When that went into service, people would prefer that to the other existing companies and force them out of buusiness.
No. The Sixth Ave express tracks were meant to feed the Houston St. tunnel to Brooklyn and S4th St.
The best they can do now is a huge Layup for inclement weather.
avid
Peggy asked me to post the reminder of Sunday's field trip on the 1 line's Manhattan and Bronx Portions.
IMPORTANT: Due to a G.O. supposedly due to end at 8am (which could run late) we will meet at Park Place Station Instead . Meet at 9am by the oculus mosaic in the mezzanine near the IND Booth.
While we can not enter closed areas, we can peek through black plastic and see the plywood at the bottom of the the ramp to the E platform level. We can also see the dust and grime still worn by Oculus.
Trip will run hot or cold, rain or snow. Planned stops include:
Houston, Christopher, 34,42 Complex (also to be seen is the N? Mezzanine and new mosaics), 50, 66,86,96,125(we will get off and walk under the structure which is not an el!), 168,181,191,Dyckman,207 (we can see 207 yard from the platform),215 (we can see Broadway Bridge from the street. The subway bridge is over the street bridge. ) and 242 where the trip will end.
Cost: One fun pass or unlimited card (you will need at least 3 fares- Entry to system, 125, 215.)
Peggy looks forward to seeing many subtalkers at the trip.
To those unable to attend, e-mail peggy off-site (peggy@nycsubway.org) and details will be sent for a low-cost CD of the trip photos.
On Monday Peggy will be heading down to Atlanta via Amtrak's Crescent. A full report will follow on her return.
Excellent.
What is this GO? I don't see any GO ending at 8am.
Oh, I see. The first Brooklyn 1 reaches Chambers at 8:36, and the 2 is running up Lex. Reaching Chambers from the south before 8:36 will be a real pain. Or are you referring to something else?
The WTC platform is plainly visible from the north end of the A/C platform.
The G.O. involves single tracking using the Brooklyn Bound track. I work nights and as such see many G.O.s and often times they run late and the first train can be delayed. I spoke with Peggy and seh agreed to Park Place sinmce it has an Island Platform which would not matter. I then suggested she include the visit to see Oculus which is in hiding at this time but can be seen through a hole in black plastic.
While the G.O. might be over, moving the start to Park Place will prevent a surprise.
The meeting place is in the Park Place Mezzanine at 9am inside the Fare Control by the transfer to the IND.
Single-tracking on the Brooklyn-bound track? Until 8:36, there is no northbound service at all south of Chambers!
Park Place is fine with me, in any case.
How does the management of the trainservices in NYC Subway work?
Is it the dispatchers in those called “Master Towers” that are in control of the trainsmovements and services during the working day, or do they just take orders from somewhere/someone else, the word “Control Center” is mentioned here and there on this site? And is there some management “on the road/line”?
Would be interesting to know how it’s works in NYC, in compare to my own organization in Stockholm-Sweden.
I’ll read the FAQ on this site, explaining some of the abbreviations of titles being used, but it still leaves many questions unanswered.
/B
I'll let the experts chime in, Dispatchers and Asst. Dispatchers are at terminals and start trains and give them their job name. The Control Center is in overall "control" (hehe) but they can't see where the trains are and talk to the towers mostly and trains. If you can't raise a tower, crews call Control too (Happened once when Dekalb tower screwed up, somehow they didn't hear the train calling but Control did, then Control called the tower and their radio started working hmmm). It's fun listening to the radio when control steps on everyone and then ends up telling a tower to use a phone to call them.
Anyway you also have the roving TSS to contend with too and towers and control calling them. I'll let the experts figure it out for ya
Thank you , much of what you just describe sounds very familiar to my ears J
However in Stockholm we do not have any so called Dispatchers. The trains runs accordingly to a predefined timetable. Any alterations of that timetable and routes, due to various reasons, such as halted trains and so on, are solely the decision of personal at Control Center.
The traincrews ( since the middle 70’s only the T/O due to the transition to OPTO ) can only use the radio to communicate direct with Control Center, even though the towers can listen in on the calls made. Towers and Control Center used to communicate with each other over the phone.
Since the beginning of the 90’s, with the political decisions towards entrepreneurship in public transportation, the former “blind” and “main” Control Center was divided in to three separated Control Centers, one for each branch/line, and then physically placed at the corresponding tower facility. That decision where not very popular among the TW/O’s, who from that point have to live with the fact of having “Control staff” (two persons) sitting right behind them, looking over their shoulders as they performed their duty’s.
Placed among them was also the person who is responsible for announcing delays and similar to the customers through PA-systems, LED-signs on the corresponding branch/line.
On top of that we have five TB (TSS in NYC) on every shift (on night-time only 3) patrolling in cars equipped with the same type of flashing lights and sirens as Police/Ambulance, so they can manage themselves trough heavy traffic, in case of emergency’s or halted services during rushhours.
/B
Master Towers are basically a new "invention". Previously switches in various sections were controlled by wayside towers located at different sections long a route. With new technology developed over the years a lot of these towers are now consolidated into one "Master Tower" which can handle control of switches and signals over long distances.
Example:
The towers at Pelham Bay Park, Parkchester and Hunts Point Avenue were consolidated into the Westchester Master Tower which is located in the Westchester Yard (north of Westchester Avenue station). At 3rd Av/138th St the switches on both ends of the station used to be under the control of the Mott Avenue (149th St/Grand Concourse) but was changed over to control by the Westchester Master Tower.
Mott Avenue Tower still controls the switches at 149th St/Grand Concourse (upper and lower levels) and the switch south of Jackson Avenue.
There are others but this is the only I can give any detail on at the moment.
Anyone else, please chime (and watch the closing doors) in.
They usually keep a body at places where two lines merge or diverge from a single track or there is a GO that takes you from your normal route (if there isn't one already).
Daytimes there are usually extra people around at part time towers like Church on the F.
Some TD are very proactive and give you skips when the rails are messed up or are good at suggesting alternative service (official or not) and others won't scratch their rear without permission from CC.
Moderately interesting puff piece on the year in transit HERE.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mr. Chi'en forgot something that's was crucial to transit in this city pre-9/11. Like the trouble with the R-142/R-142A fleet that temporarily caused a car shortage on a subway line.
Mr Chi'en neglects many things, as I have stated before, I feel that he is in the wrong line of work. Which is why I called it a puff piece.
Peace,
ANDEE
A car shortage? The A Division currently has an excess of cars (for the scheduled service, at least).
Definitely puffy.
"Then tunnels on the 1 and 9 lines were crushed, and all subway service ground to a halt for the first time in history."
Not quite true...
If I recall, the entire system was halted at 11:50 pm on New Year's Eve 1999 (changing to 2000) so that no trains would be running when the calendar changed, in case any Y2K glitches crashed the signal system.
Of course, there were no Y2K glitches in the US...
Anyone else remember this, or was it a rumor?
JR
Not sure about Y2K, but what about April Fools Day, 1980?
Not sure about Y2K, but what about April Fools Day, 1980?
What happened?
JR
TWU 100 went on strike and shut the system down for eleven days.
Ah yes, now I remember. Thanks. Glad they did research before publishing that NY1 article. (insert sarcasm here...)
JR
Yes, the system did shut down - sort of. Trains were stopped in stations, but the system was not evacuated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
what does it look like at the street & station entrance level ??
since i was told this is the least used station ??
.....just curious & interested ... thankz ...!
lol!
Plenty of stores selling commerical cookware on the north side.
Plenty of stores selling lighting fixtures on the south side.
Always busy in daylight hours.
It's nohwere near as bad a neighborhood as it used to be. Some reasons it might still be little used:
- The businesses there are not major employers.
- The residential buildings nearby are all low rise (5 stories).
- The people who do live in the neighborhood will generally not want to use the J/M/Z but are more likely to want the F, the B/D (well, the Grand Street shuttle for now), the 6, or the N/R, all of which are really only a fairly short walk away. The J/M/Z don't go anywhere except to the financial district and very selected parts of Brooklyn and Queens.
- It's the only J/M/Z station in Manhattan that doesn't connect to much else, now subways and only the Bowery bus, which runs on a pitifully poor schedule itself. And the J/M/Z themselves aren't the most heavily traveled subway line themselves, with the vast majority of the traffic being people going to work in the financial district.
I was on the J train over the weekend and the ride spurred a question that I had for quite some time. It has always puzzled me, and I figured the guys at subtalk could help answer it.
Why is Marcy Avenue different from all the other stations on the line. It looks newer, and doesn't have the look that almost every local station on the J (and the side platforms stations on the M) have. Did they have to tear the original station down when they connected the line to the WillyB? I know the line original terminated at the Broadway waterfront, and was thinking that maybe the original station may have had to be demolished to make way for the bridge approaches. Does anyone know why Marcy is different with construction, no fare control under the station, and wasn't built to the same specs as all the other stations.
The station WAS built like the others, but it was rebuilt approximately 20 years ago.
David
So they tore up the fare control area under the station? It still puzzles me because I believe I saw a photo of Marcy from the 60's with rotting wooden platforms, that may have dated back to the 30's or so.
Not sure about the history of the fare controls, but the wood platforms were replaced by concrete ones in the early 1980s -- the station was closed for several months while this happened.
David
The platforms from Hewes to Eastern Pkwy were concrete for 60 years prior.
Concrete platforms in the 1930s and 1940s when no other BMT station had them? I am unsure about that.
All the stations I think were concrete on the M from Fresh Pond to Myrtle and on the J from Hewes to Eastern Pkwy, and from Cypress Hills to 168th Street from the time of the el rebuilding around 1915 or so, with Marcy being the exception, as I just found out today, and of course the old section from Alabama to Cypress Hills.
Marcy Ave, Alabama Ave, Van Siclen Ave, Cleveland St, Norwood Ave, Crescent St and 168th St had wood platforms until the 1980's.
Marcy Ave was the only side platform station with a wood platform at that time.
I'm not sure about this but I think that 168th St still had a wood platform when it was torn down.
All of the other stations that existed at the time of the dual contracts were rebuilt with concrete platforms.
Dual Contracts eliminated a station between Myrtle and Flushing. It was a center platform station known as Park Ave.
You haven't lived until you had the opportunity to stand on the end of Marcy Ave station in the 1940's. The wood platform was only about three feet wide, and you hoped that the railing didn't fall to the street before the train came.
You haven't lived until you had the opportunity to stand on the end of Marcy Ave station in the 1940's. The wood platform was only about three feet wide, and you hoped that the railing didn't fall to the street before the train came.
LOL........................That must have been something!
My mother always insisted that we stand where the front of the train would stop. I was always thankful when we got on the Standards, and off that damn platform.
I think it is the reason I have had a fear of heights all my life.
Yes, the station was quite scary looking. Does anyone know which platform had to be rebuilt after being damaged by fire in the 1950's?
I once had a nightmare about Marcy Ave.--
There were big holes in the rotting wooden platform, and I was holding onto those siderails tight so I wouldn't fall through.....
What's funny is that it was concrete platforms by the time I lived near it...
Go figure :)
Actually, 168th St was always wooden until it was demolished in the late 70's.
I highly doubt even with Dual Contracts rebuilding of the lines in the time period 1913-1918 they installed concrete platforms. Dual contracts construction did NOT employ concrete platforms on the West End, Culver, or Brighton elevated until past the 1940's. Why would it be done on the Eastern Division?
I am going to go thru the stacks of papers and books I have to verify this, but I would bet money that concrete platforms were NOT part of BRT Eastern Division rebuilding.
That's very interesting. I didn't realize that. What about the fare control areas? It just seems all the concrete is about the same age.
I used many of those side platform stations starting in the 1940's, and with the exception of Marcy, they were all concrete, and it sure did not look new.
The stations just seem to be built so sturdy. It's hard to believe that that concrete is not original from circa 1915 on the J and M lines, excluding Marcy, 168th, Alabama to Cres, and Metro. It seems that the wood platforms just wouldn't have went with the sturdy steal. And the fare control areas, it's hard to believe that they weren't always concrete, and if they made the fare control areas concrete, why not the platforms?
Those concrete side platform stations all used to have fare control at both ends of the station too. The TA has completely eliminated fare control at one end of many of the stations.
That was a shame!
I also noticed that with the rebuilding of Hewes, Lorimer, and Flushing they rebuilt and extended the canopies over the stairways of both the in use fare control area and the not in use fare area at those stations. So maybe they intend to one day use them again. However the extra fare control areas on the M at Forest, Central, Knickerbocker, and two abandoned fare areas at Wyckoff have all been completely removed and the stairways removed and cemented over on the platforms.
They are available for emergency exit use only. They can be unlocked by pushing a special button in the booth at the other end. The mezzanine space is now used for electrical rooms, communicatiosn rooms etc.
Marcy is being renovated again at this time. New lights are going in including new end of platform lights--presumably like the other J stations have along with the ADA edge strip and elevators will be added.
Is the ADA edge strip those big yellow tiles with the bumps. I can't remember if the other renovated stations got that or not. That stuff is dangerous I say. I busted my ass right in front of a door of a 4 train at Grand Central. That stuff was wet because they were cleaning the station. I was nice and didn't try to sue the MTA for millions because I was the one running for the train. I'm just glad the C/R didn't close the door on my arm which was partially inside the train.
Shawn.
You win the prize ! Yes, the usually yellow strip with the bumps. As far as stations with them- all current renovations projects are getting these along with some previously done. Some stations such as 57/7th have a slightly different form but this too is a tactile edge as required by the ADA.
I say usually yellow since PATCO uses Orange at the ends of their platforms and I think MARTA has at least one station with white.
Can anyone remember the first station these yellow bumped edges were installed at? I do.
Which one was it?
- Lyle Goldman
Pacific St.
I very much dislike the yellow tactile strip.
I very much like the bumpy black edge with two orange stripes, as at 57/7. It's less slippery and it looks quite classy.
If both meet ADA requirements, why is the yellow version in use now?
I agree the yellow bumpy strip always looks dirty.
I have a picture of a BMT standard train at 121 St on the Jamaica line dated in 1947. The station has concrete platforms, as well as an open windscreen design.
Marcy Ave never had fare control under the station. It wasn't even an express stop until the 1960's. The switches back then were west of the station, now they are east!
I wonder why the rebuild of 1915/16 placed 2 stations (Hewes & Marcy) so close together. Other pre-dual contracts stations were completely removed (Evergreen Ave is the only one I know by name). If I were in charge back then, I'd have rebuilt Marcy Ave, moving it west about a block, and completely eliminated Hewes.
Even THEN there were NIMBYs ... you either work WITH the hood or the hood works against YOU ... politicians once FEARED the voter. No problem today. :)
Marcy Ave. is different because it wasn't rebuilt when the center express track was added around 1915-1920. The Broadway Brooklyn Line and Myrtle Ave Line (between Broadway and Wycoff) originally looked much like the section of the J/Z line between Alabama Ave and Crescent St does today - two tracks with space between them and island platforms at the stations - except at Marcy Ave., where there was a layup track in the center and side platforms (with fare controls at platform level).
When the line was rebuilt c. 1915-20, the stations with center platforms were rebuilt as side platform stations with mezzanines (including the ones along Myrtle Ave, even though a center express track was never built, but only space left for it).
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks, that explains it.
Wow!!!! Thanks for the explanation. I've ALWAYS wondered why there looked like a possible center track existed at one time, but didn't *lol*
I suppose that's the same thing as the rest of the "J" line east of the Alabama-Cresent Street corridor (past the dreaded "S" curve)--at least up to the former end of the line at 111th Street, before the extension to Jamaica Center (I think), or am I wrong on that matter?
I'm not so sure there was never a center track between Central and Wyckoff, If you look closely on the el structure, you can see where ties used to be. I know it was never used in service, but it does look like there was a track there once, even if for a short period of time. On the J line there is no evidence of a trackway ever being there, but the trackway does seem to exist on the M.
On the (J) line east of Eastern Pkwy station and the turnoffs to the (L), you can see girders rising in the middle and going nowhere. There had been a plan to build a raised center track (as in the old Manhattan el's) around 1951, and it was started but never completed.
Bob Sklar
The girders going nowhere west of Alabama Ave have been there a lot longer than 1951,
I think they were constructed during the dual contracts in 1916-17.
This was the provision for the never built Fulton St flyover express tracks and does indeed date to 1916/1917. The riveted structure easily dates the steelwork to this era.
I always wondered what that was at Alabama Avenue. So it never was much more than it is right now. I wonder why they stopped building it.
I thought that raised roadbed was a turning track.
GP-38: The center track was installed on the Myrtle Avenue El between Central Avenue and Wycloff Avenue. It may have been used for layups but never regular serice. It may have been removed somewhere between 1945 and 1955 +/-.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There's a picture on page 36 of Greller and Watson's book, The Brooklyn Elevated, showing the third track "in service" at Knickerbocker Ave. Unfortunately, no date is given.
What kind of track layout was there from B'way-Myrtle to Bridge-Jay?
Two track elevated, island platforms. Here's a link to a picture of the newspaper on closing day ...
newspaper picture
For a several years the sections of Jamaica Ave. and Myrtle Ave had these shorty light poles long after the "Els" were removed. There gone too!
avid
Let's take some of that Broadway Junction steel and rebuild the Navy Street station! Teach THEM to mess with a perfectly good el. :)
Myrtle Ave was hardly "perfectly good". It was in bad shape and too lightly built to operate modern cars.
Did the trick though, just like the 3rd avenue el that was razed for the SAME excuses ... now GRANTED, on the Myrtle, one pier got kocked loose by a traffic accident towards the end ... it COULD have been fixed. Yum ... busses for everybody ... woohoo! Bx55 was the same sad joke. BOTH els though, when it came to the torch, farted in the general direction of the contractors ...
Both elevated lines would have needed massive rehabilitation and structural work if they were to retained much longer than they were. The R12's were to damn heavy for the lower 3rd. Ave line, and nothing in the B division fleet outside the proposed R39 would have been able to replace the Q cars.
In my opinion, the most intersting part of the old Myrtle Ave. El was the arch truss bridge across Flatbush Ave. Extension, obviously added when the road was built as an approach to the Manhattan Bridge so that traffic wouldn't have to snake around the El's support columns.
-- Ed Sachs
2 tracks, almost identical to Fulton St prior to it's rebuilding. This is Grand Ave, probably in the 1950's. Can I assume from the steelwork in this picture that this is the place where the Lexington Ave and Myrtle Ave els joined?
I think the picture is from the 1940's or earlier, Chris, and it is the old Grand Ave - Myrtle Ave interlocking. The picture was taken from the old walkover between the two Grand Ave platforms on the Myrt.
I spent some time on the walkover as a kid in the 1940's, watching trains, but couldn't afford a camera.
The three platforms and the tower were razed after the Last Lex on Oct 13th 1950.
Thanks for the picture, it brought back a lot of memories!
I don't think so. The picture that I've seen of the Myrtle-Grand crossing has the Myrtle El platform at Grand Ave to be east of the turn-off to the Lexington El. Trains doing to the Lexingion El never made a stop at that stop. There was no platform to stop at! Before Aqueduct Race Track, Myrtle Ave on the Lexington El was the only station with service just on one side.
I'd say that in the picture, based on the shadows, the view is looking west.
I'd say that in the picture, based on the shadows, the view is looking west.
The "Metropolitan Ave" destination sign on the lead car clinches that hypothesis.
The Myrtle Avenue el ran geographically northeast to southwest. Lex trains turned off just southwest of this station.
The picture was taken looking southwest toward Bridge-Jay St.
You can see one of the diverging tracks for the Lex under the second car of the train. The other track is concealed by the train itself
The Lex had its own side platform, called Myrtle Ave, for Bridge-Jay St bound trains. This platform (not shown) was connected to the Grand Ave platform shown on the left side of the picture. The two platforms formed a letter L, with the stationhouse at the point.
111th St bound Lex trains were the trains that had no platform to stop at here.
There is a picture on the inside of the front cover of Greller's Brooklyn Elevated , taken from the other direction, that shows this same junction.
Boy, this has me really confused. The steelwork in this picture has a track turning off and going right through the platform, something impossible unless the station was rebuilt after the Lex track's were removed.
That's probably because you're looking at the turnoff to the Old Main Line. That turnoff goes right into a building.
-Stef
Thanks for the clarification.
The 4 story yellow brick building on the NE corner of Myrt and Grand wasn't built until after the Old Main was torn down. But the wood building next door until about 10 years ago still had the 45 degree cut in the second story to clear the el structure - gone then about 90 years. Those two lines were only about 6 feet apart originally!
I can also see the building where I met my other half - midway between Hall and Ryerson. You Pratt guys would remember Dottie's Romanian Gardens.
Chris, the Lex is very definately still in operation in your picture. All three station platforms and the tower were removed when the Lex ceased operation. There was no longer a Myrt station at Grand Ave.
Incidentally the two side platforms on Myrt were not exactly opposite each other. The steelwork you see in the lower right hand corner of your picture is exactly as Stef says. That is probably why the two side platforms aren't exactly across from each other.
There was. If you look on page 59 of James Greller's "Cars of the BMT" book, in the lower left hand corner, it shows a picture of Knickerbocker Ave in the 1940's, a BMT standard on one track, and a gate car set on the other. The remains of an express track are quite visable, though it's had it's rails removed (much like the lower express track along 3rd Ave. in the Bronx during the 1960's and early 70's). So one did exist for a time.
Pretty cool photo. That proves it was there for a while.
The center tracks between Crescent and Cypress Hills, and at 111th St have existed since the line was built. They were never an express track, but were always a layup track.
Van Siclen Ave used to be a side platform station, and there was a side platform station there. It also had a center track for layup purposes.
The bumper for this long gone track at Van Siclen still exists.
It was rebuilt from an older wooden platformed station in 1979. Marcy Ave, as it was before 1979, looked as if it was an original Broadway elevated station, merely extended to accomodate longer train during the rebuild of 1916.
Test failed
Error 513: Transmission feiled for the following message: "Test failed".
"Transmission feiled"?
Where's the proff?
Works just like an R142!
Here we go:
Tanx
Howard,
Where did you find the "Bluegrab" Gif? I'm still laughing!!
JR
From here: www.mysmiles.com
1.A
2.C
3.D
4.B
5.E
6.C
7.C
8.A
9.B
10. D
So, how'd I do?
grand-central%test
FALSE
grand-central%
Hmm, I wonder who wrote that little proggy that somehow found its way onto our /usr/bin
excellent ! keep up the good work !!
lol !!
Is that the new, improved Florida election ballot ?
Bill "Newkirk"
...was the announcement being made on the northbound 1 I boarded today at 8:15 a.m. at Atlantic Avenue.
Such honest announcements are refreshing.
If John Belushi were still alive, he could do a "Samurai" sketch as Samurai conductor. With a whoosh of his sword, he could neatly cut all subway riders into 3 (IRT) or 4 (BMT/IND) pieces, and then announce "Please use all doors when leaving the train"!
(LOL)
Bob Sklar
You could also have a Schwartzeneggeroid type waiting around to chuck some passenger battering-ram-style through a door that won't open.
"You vill use the vuns that don't vork, either. And you vill like it!"
They could also toss passengers off the express between the studs onto the platform at local stops as it goes by. It would be called an "express stop" or a "nonstop stop."
In fact, all trains should be converted to expresses, regardless of the tracks they use. Would make the system much more efficient, though you'd need an Ah-nold on every car.
I can see the TA ads: "Stop nonstop and speed your ride!"
The only problem with that is you can only allow pax to disembark and cannot pick up anyone at the local stops.
It was done in "Soylent Green" ... simply add a big scoop up front and dump 'em into the second car. :)
Trains used to pick up and drop off the US mail nonstop; with enough padding/webbing/netting it should be possible to do with pax as well. Have them sit in a chair that accelerates and then catapaults them into the train.
To which I sometimes want to reply: "I'd be happy to walk down to an emptier car if I didn't think you were going to slam the doors shut while I was doing it."
I would say this is an objectionable habit of about 10% of C/Rs. The rest are very decent but the occasional outlier makes getting into a crowded train something of a crap shoot.
Just one thing to bear in mind - conductors are obligated by management to play "beat the clock" while out on the road. If the train's late, these boys and girls get a whipping. Their motivation is NOT to abuse customers, their motivation is not getting yelled at at the other end for holding up the railroad so folks can sashay onto a car. Perhaps "step lively" should be put back into the announcements.
Make more built in time at the end so we have time to run down to the other ends of the train. I'm fast so I can often do it and dodge the crowds but not everyone can make it easily.
The shuffle earns a fat belly that gets stuck. CI Peter
If RTO is willing, I'm sure the folks in the middle would be happy to. But in many cases, the train behind isn't all that far away - more than enough time to pre-position one's self at the designated car marker. All the crews we met along the way found us waiting for them at their spot. :)
But for those who have to ride a train from end to end and then back, "tick tock" is a vivid reality ... hold one train, and you suddenyl find that you're holding many others as well ... and usually in the dark.
I am not so picky at rush hours but evenings and weekends, to me it makes sense to wait and just let people pile on than close up. The time is easier to make up plus the next train can be 10 minutes away sometimes and there are fewer alternate ways of going.
On those headways, generally the odds of landing on the platform as the train is there are relatively slim. But the schedule is just as tight off peak and you still get yelled at if you're late. In the greater scheme of things, 10 minutes isn't quite forever either.
There ARE lingerers out there though - if you let the doors sit open for five minutes at a platform, there are folks who would STILL be taking their sweet time. Don't mind me though - for every customer who has horror stories to tell about having the doors close in their face, there's easily two conductors who got yelled at for being late. Gotta look at both sides of the equation and there's a lot of folks who don't. If it was entirely up to our discretion, we'd open up once or twice. In reality you can't or the train would never make it to the other end.
Crews get it form the T/D more if you run late off peak hours. A TSS in school car gave my class the best advise for the road.
Take some
Leave some
Drag none
Heh. I like that one. I know THAT won't go over big with folks who don't understand what it's like to be in the refrigerator carton all day but I have YET to meet a conductor who doesn't wish that they DID have the time to let someone on when it's time to go ... especially that cute one at the bottom of the stairs. Grrrrrow-wow! :)
I know! When I was posting which is on the job training you go on a line and ride with a Conductor and they show you the job.
Well I was on the No.6 Line with a Redbird for my first half trip ever on the No.6 Line. It was around 9AM at 77 Street this hot young lady comes down the steps after I close down. I couldn't help it I reopened for her. Now my trainer was asking me why I did it but before I could answer she came to my cab to thank me with a kiss. A good kiss at that. Before I could get her Number she just said you know where I get on see you tomorrow and she sat down in another car.
My trainer was lost for words after seeing that. If you are wondering since we are Talking about AM's and the No.6 Line where PBD SR works did he the Trainer tell him?
Yes it was the topic of the Lunch break because Me, Trainer and dad with others had lunch together.
Heh. Cabs were MEANT to be "blessed" ... AH, for the days before Herpes and AIDS ... but I can't talk about it lest I corrupt your wittle mind. Once upon a time, in a less groovy world, JUST THE MONKEYSUIT was enough to get yer yayas if you could persuade them to meet you at the end of your run. :)
hey, Nancy and I met ya ... it could STILL happen. Heh.
Well that only happened to me once. Maybe it could happen again but with Redbirds going out I don't think so.
Strange TA logic at play there - big cab, lock yourself inside, little cab, open it up for the world. STILL can't fathom that one. :)
They can make time. Anyone who cares to make that train off peak will get on where they see a door.
Sometimes it is the truth that you should use all working doors when entering or exiting the train. I have on occasion been in a car with a non-working door. It not only has happened to me on the subway, it has also happened to me on Metro-North.
#3 West End Jeff
I used to work with a conductor who always had a knack for announcements.
1) "This train is equipped with 32 pairs of doors. Not just the one at the front."
2) To passengers holding doors asking questions: "Ladies and gentlemen, if you aren't sure if this is your train or not, it probably isn't. Please let the doors go."
3) Sitting in the cold at Broad Channel: "service is closed because the bridge is opened."
4) "You can get her phone number on the platform, or on the train, but NOT BOTH!"
Honesty will get us nowhere.
Do T/Os have any say in what the C/R says or does the T/O have to keep his mouth shut?
I've heard a conductor on an R46 E s/b at Lex Av. - 53rd St. and during PM rush, (the station's like a rampage) the conductor noted "Please use all available doors", as I was standing at the platform and saw a myriad of people stuck to get in one set of doors while the other three sets were less crowded.
I've heard it on other trains too. I think conductors do care about effective service.
why do your ears blow out when... you enter a undergound under the water tube ?? etc..
U know what i mean !!
lol !!
PRESSURE, PURE PRESSURE
No, it's cuz of PEER pressure...
When it's underwater, it's because of the pier pressure.
Rim shot!
It usually happens when the train passes an emergency exit in a river tunnel. I used to keep my mouth open when riding through the 14th St. tunnel when our train approached one of those exits. It helped.
You mean like in an aeroplane?
"The gum is for your ears."
The TA should distribute gum on N/W trains at Lex and QbP.
Pressure, too much pressure causes this:
lol !
That's when Felix would try to clear out his ears:
HMAAHH!! FMAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Then he'd sprain his throat.
Salaam of the Redbirds,
The short answer is that it is due to a change in pressure within the car.
I'm not a doctor, but from what I gather, air cavities (like your sinuses) need to adjust to this change. The passageways aren't very large, meaning that they often need to be cleared. Otherwise you will feel force being exerted one way or the other by the pressure differential. You can experience this sensation in an airplane or driving up/down a mountain.
Now for the long answer.
Many out there will probably say that this pressure differential within a subway car is caused by the depth of the tunnel. This is not entirely correct. Both the elevation and velocity of the car play a role in the increase in pressure.
The role of elevation is simple. The deeper down you go, the greater the pressure, as you literally have that much more air resting on top of you. But 100 or so feet isn't enough to cause that much of a pressure change alone.
The answer is velocity. Yes, velocity. As the subway travels through the tube, air is forced from in front of the car to around the sides. The clearance is not that great compared to the effective diameter of the tunnel. The air must speed up (relative to the train) and/or be compressed to pass. It will do both. The subways are not airtight, so this pressure increase on the exterior of the car is transmitted inside. You will note this by hearing an unusual whistling noise through the windows and doors.
So why does this happen only in the river tunnels? Well, there aren't any air vents to equilibrate the pressure changes that set up. So deep in the tunnel, you get a significant relative velocity and pressure change around the exterior of the car.
I hope this answers your question,
MATT-2AV
yes it does ! thankz !!
Notice if you swallow you can blow your ears back ... lol !!
thankz again ....( smile )
For the same reason LIRR used to want conductors to lock the toilets on trains when heading toward NY City. When the train hit the tunnel, it was like a piston in a cylinder....and would compress the air. A not so tight "gasket" would allow the air to go wherever there was not a seal.
A former neighbor who was a LIRR engineer was running an MP54 MU into Penn Station, and hitting about 55-60 mph going down the ramp into the tunnels when he heard a loud scream. He thought he hit someone. Plugged the train, they got out and inspected underneath. Nothing. Then the toilet door behind his cab opened, and a woman covered from head to toe with poop came out crying.....
Seems the tunnel air forced her donation to the tracks back up where it came from...sort of. All because the conductor didn't lock the door.
OMG !! ..........woah man ......terrible !!
Can we have a function whereby the poster can combine and split threads? See for the Subway surfer thread, we can combine the Train Dude and churchbob threads. For the other threads that drift off topic, we can have a split thread function at the time of posting a reply and then we can have simply a link in the first message of the new thread that takes you back to the old thread, but when the user choose first message in thread it won't trace back to the first message of the thread of the original topic
I can tell you right now, it would either A) never be used or B) used so much almost everything is the start of a thread. Do you think I trust Subtalk posters to use it responsibly? Got better things to do with my time, sorry.
Waoh, sorry. Just a joke, didn't mean to relegate you to more programming. Are people that irresponsible? Are you pissed off with the board?
Lexcie
Now, why would he be pissed off?
If I'm not mistaken - I don't know precisely how Subtalk works on the server, but I have written similar programs in the past - slice and splice functions for remote users would be rather difficult to program, and their use would definately tax the server's performance.
-Robert King
One thing that I'd really like is an elimination of the 15-minute refresh thing, or an option for it. Sometimes it takes longer than 15 minutes to look for new material by searching for "NEW" in the threaded view.
Mark
>>> One thing that I'd really like is an elimination of the 15-minute refresh thing, <<<
I'll second that. It cvan be annoying at times.
Tom
If you want to see new material, turn on the "chronological" option.
Nice, 60 minutes now. If we can't make it through in that time, then something's seriously wrong.
Thanks, Dave.
Mark
we can combine the Train Dude and churchbob threads.
Letchie: That's chuchubob, as in choo choo bob. I wouldn't want anybody to get a negative impression of church by reading my posts. I understand how easily it can be misread, though.
"That's chuchubob, as in choo choo bob. I wouldn't want anybody to get a negative impression of church by reading my posts. I understand how easily it can be misread, though"
Good one
Oops!!! Sorry, I keep maquing that mistaque. Well my spellingque is terriblue.
Lexice
Yeah, yeah, I know ... it's in/around/near Selkirk, NY.
The Q is actually: When I drive up the Thruway toward Albany, then turn right onto the extension that leads to the Mass Pike, I cross over a light-blue 4-lane bridge. Next to it is a very rusty rail bridge.
Is that the Selkirk Bridge, aka southernmost point where a train can cross the Hudson?
The Selkirk bridge locates at MP 125 (90% certain) on the New York side of the Hudson River and is used to connect with the tracks on the New Jersey side of the river.
I don't remember the name of the divisions. I think the Jersey side is called the River division and the New York side is the Hudson division.
I'm sure I'll be corrected before the night is over.
Michael
River Line and Hudson Line. The Boston Line crosses the bridge b4 turning into the Selkirk Branch.
What you describe is definitely the south-most rail bridge over the Hudson.
What you describe is definitely the south-most rail bridge over the Hudson.
Well, southernmost ACTIVE rail bridge. The one in Poughkeepsie is still there and just as impressive, though I believe the approach ROWs on the west side (Highland, NY) have been torn up and/or built over.
So IS the one I described the "Selkirk Bridge"?
Well, southernmost ACTIVE rail bridge. The one in Poughkeepsie is still there and just as impressive, though I believe the approach ROWs on the west side (Highland, NY) have been torn up and/or built over.
The approaches on both sides have been significantly encroached and/or destroyed at this point, unfortunately.
A book chronicling the history of the Poughkeepsie bridge, by Pulitzer Prize winning author Carleton Mabee, has just been published by Purple Mountain Press. Unfortunately, their website isn't up to date enough to even list it. It runs $39.00 for an autographed hardcover (if they still have any left - the hardbound was a limited edition of 500, of which my copy is #440) and $24.00 for a non-autographed paperback. Someone is listing the book on eBay but the bidding starts at full list and the shipping charge is higher than ordering directly from Purple Mountain. Their toll-free order number is (800) 325-2665 or, for those who would rather pay by check, you can mail it in... call them first for the total including shipping and their address (in Fleischmanns, NY).
The book, by the way, is quite interesting. It is NOT an engineering history but rather a history of the people who planned, built, worked on, maintained, and ultimately those who are trying to save the bridge and open it as a walkway. Lots of photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Somehow I feel obligated ... yes indeedy ... that's the one and since the Poughkeepsie bridge is no more for traction, the one here is indeed the "southern cross" ... plenty of others though as you work your way up the Hudson creek from there.
Should we tell folks from the city just how NARROW the Hudson is up here? Nah. But the good news is you can walk across it all winter long and not get winded. :)
Still looks like a real river to me on the map. 1000' of actual water and a mile long bridge to cross what looks like undeveloped marsh land. Maybe not quite a match for the East River but considerably more than the Harlem River.
Yep ... but standing at 72nd street for comparison, the Hudson's a puddle up here. And when you get up towards Watervliet and the locks of the Erie, it REALLY gets narrow. When I have folks up from the city and they spot it for the first time, they are amazed. :)
Never mind 72nd St. Try Tappan Zee...
Feh. You can LEAP it here. :)
Sounds like the north end of the Jordan River -- except no rail bridge..
The reason for the length of the Selkirk rail bridge is because on the east side of the Hudson, it's at a pretty decent altitude coming off the Berkshires. But only a small portion of it is actually over the Hudson itself - it's about 400 feet south of the Thruway bridge to the Berkshire spur at about the same height. Years ago in the Conrail days when I was permitted cab rides with buddies, it was a scary railroad bridge. Rickety and shaky ... it's a LONG way down to the river below ...
What was wrong with the redbird I say at Grand Central yesterday going south at 4:30pm?
What would lead one to assume that it was "broken?"
A #5 train is supposed to deadhead southbound, leaving E. 180th Street light at 4:18 PM and arriving at Bowling Green at 5:02 PM, and leave Bowling Green going northbound at 5:17 PM. Perhaps that was the train "buildmorelines" saw heading southward, though 4:30 is a bit early to be seeing this deadhead move assuming the train left E. 180th Street on time and wasn't "pushed out" early.
David
i just came from railfanning. the most interesting thing is i went to bedford park blvd on the 4, to take pics of trains in the yard. the most interesting thing is, i caught the same trains everytime!
for example i took 3558 as a E to lex/53rd. took 7511 R142A 6 uptown one stop to 59 where i catch 1610 as a 4 to woodlawn. I get off 1610 at bedford park blvd to shoot pics and all of the yard. then i catch 1610 again back down to 125! then at 125 7520 pulls in and i get on the tailcar and the tailcar is.... u guessed it 7511! then i decided to ride the E downtown to my bros job! guess what E pulled in as the headcar? 3558! whoa! what a day! then i take the E back uptown and catch a F up hillside to take pics of the special E signs saying E to 179. they betta make those Es express soon
LOL. Railfanning IS great! I did some today after work. MUST TAKE PICS OF ATLANTIC AVENUE AND ENY ON THE L BEFORE IT'S TOTALLY CHANGED!
I thought the Hillside Es were express all the way.
I was on a 1 train a week ago, last Thursday evening, that ran through a yard in passenger service.
It was a southbound train. Just south of 145, the mainline track didn't exist -- I assume it had been removed temporarily for track work. The signal displayed red-over-red-over-yellow -- i.e., call-on (this, incidentally, is the same signal I saw on the SB J approaching the Canal dead-end -- I had misremembered). The 1 train switched to the first track to the right (west), keyed by a few AK (red) signals, and rejoined the mainline just north of 137. Northbound trains were operating normally.
If I am not mistaken, only the two mainline tracks, and perhaps the one between them, are considered revenue trackage. A few months ago, I was informed, in no uncertain terms, that the general public is simply not allowed to be on a train in a yard. When Manhattan-bound E and F trains operated through Jamaica Yard, passengers had to use a slow shuttle bus from Van Wyck to 71-Continental. Why weren't we subjected to the same routine last week at 145, with shuttle bus service to 137? Or is 137th Street Yard considered revenue trackage?
A few months ago, I was informed, in no uncertain terms, that the general public is simply not allowed to be on a train in a yard.
on SEPTA, pax regularly ride thru the yards. Maybe this is an NYCTA rule. on MBTA, disabled pax ride thru the yards, because they don't have facility to board pax at Park St Green Line for westbound pax, so they take the disabled person, put them on a train, turn the train round in the underground yard/loop thing and then make the train face west.
lexcie
The T is much more lax about this, especially on the Green Line. If you're a rail fan and want to ride around one of the end-of-line loops such as Government Center, Park Street, or Lechmere, all you have to do is ask. Your wish will generally be granted.
SEPTA- At the 69th Street terminal on the Market Street Line I was aloud to ride the train on the loop through part of the yard.
Sorry, I think it's reasonable to assume on this board that, unless stated otherwise, the conversation is about the New York City subway system. Notice the domain name. Of course I'm discussing an NYCT rule. What do you expect?
Frankly, I wouldn't mind if posts that have no connection to NYC-area transit or other urban transit systems were directed to another board. This is SubTalk, not some generic TrainTalk.
I beg to differ Sir, please read the message at the top of http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi which clearly states "This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only"
It is great to compare NYC system to other subway systems IMHO.
Yes, rail transit. Amtrak is not generally considered transit, and many of us here don't care to hear random obscure complaints about Amtrak (and, no, it wasn't thread drift).
Of course, I'm not in charge here; I'm just giving my opinion.
But getting back to my earlier post -- is it not reasonable to assume, unless there is some indication to the contrary, that a post on this board is about the NYC subway and not some other system?
Maybe he thought that you thought that you had been told that there was a federal law or regulation on the subject, rather than a particular system's operating rule.
That is NOT a yard it's a siding with an inflated resume.
AHA! That says alot. It's quite a short stretch to travel, so it may be an exception to the rules of mainline trackage. It makes me wonder if the TSQ spur has been used for odd ball movements when there is a blockage on either of the two express tracks.
I know that the yard lead at the East is used for passenger movement, as I have been through it one time or another.
-Stef
"A Lead" is listed as being the only yard trackage certified for revenue service.
Normally, if the B'way IRT express tracks are blocked, trains get re-routed via the local track.
Alright, but there are some interesting moves at times. Case and point: The Collector (Revenue), is held on the northbound local track between 34th-42nd Sts. The train behind it, an R-142 #2, gets a lineup for the express track from 34th Sts. Immediately before 42nd St, the train takes a lineup back to the local track. It's such a short move, I didn't think that the Collector could be held in such a way that other trains could get around it.
72nd St? Well that's a different story.... Collectors usually sit and wait.
-Stef
Two car long collector sitting behind a homeball that can hold ten cars, while the road runs around it - no problem. Infinitely preferable to holding the road while the Collector does its thing.
What/where is "A Lead"?
Is the crossover from the South Ferry outer loop to Bowling Green revenue trackage? What about the crossover from Bowling Green to the outer loop?
Go to the track maps; find the section of the Bronx that includes E.180 St. Just south of Bronx Park East, you will see A Lead (aka 'the scenic route' and 'the back door') split off 2 Track and then rejoin it right before E. 180 station. The move through here is usually made for one of three reasons:
1.- when a southbound 2 and southbound 5 are trying to arrive at the same time
2.- on the midnights when a shuttle is arriving
3.- during GOs where the 5 is single-tracking on the southbound track.
Both loop crossovers are (were?) mainline, hence, revenue trackage. Otherwise they could never pull off the '2 loops the Ferry to the Lex, then goes to Brooklyn' move without emptying the train at Chambers St.
Very interesting. How often is A Lead used in the typical morning rush hour? (Is it ever used middays, even though the 5 will have to switch back to the local once past E180? The afternoon rush is obviously out.)
As for South Ferry, what you say makes sense, but then I wonder why, when the equivalent to this weekend's GO ran (4 split, 5 SB via 2 to Chambers and through the loop), most crews ejected their passengers at Chambers rather than allowing them to remain on to Bowling Green (and beyond -- the quickest route from Dyre to, say, Brooklyn Bridge would have been a 5 through the loop rather than a double transfer).
What about the inner loop proper?
Both loop crossovers are (were?) mainline, hence, revenue trackage.
So what you're saying is that previous revenue tracks allow passengers on? If that's so then why do 6 trains force everyone to get off the train at Brooklyn Bridge?
Because the Mayor insisted on it to prevent a bomb from being carried on the train as it went through the loop. (I hope that someone checks the train for unattended packages before it leaves BB.)
As of 2 years ago (if I recall correctly) passengers were allowed to ride the City Hall loop. A bulletin was issued regarding this matter.
This has been discussed here extensively. From what I've read of previous threads on the subject, one cannot rely on anything more than a few months old on this subject.
That's how the TA works, once you get used to something change it.
There is a new Mayor in NYC. Is he paranoid about attended bombs in the City Hall IRT station?
Didn't say that at all - used 'were' because at this time they are out of service. For opinions on BB Loop, go look in the Archives.
Alex wasn't referring to the inner loop itself -- he was referring to the crossovers to and from the outer loop. (The outer loop is/was the South Ferry station. It was in revenue service until 9/11.)
The City Hall loop has gone back and forth a few times in the past few years. My experience is that crews don't have time to check the entire train for lingering passengers. If you're in the last car, chances are nothing will happen, although you probably risk a ticket.
If you ask the conductor nicely he'l llet you ride it. I rode it many a time and they never declined.
I think that depends on the latest bulletin issued on the matter. Back when the loop was unquestionably revenue trackage, the first two T/O's asked me to leave the train and only the third allowed me to remain. (Now I just don't ask -- although if someone asks me to leave, of course I do.)
Does TA policy make a distinction? Are trains often rerouted through the yard (siding) in question?
You mentioned it had AK's. That uts the level of signalling way beyond a yard.
And how would I know that? With this one exception, I've never been in a yard -- remember?
Yards typically have no signals at all, I take it, except at switches?
And bumper blocks plus a few stop signs at various places.
There are a few exceptions like the entrance and on loops tracks. Almost everything is a homeball. AK and yard don't mix.
And you should know you are a train buff and you won't let this topic go.
No you can't go to Jamaica yard go to bed, no supper.
There are many sidings that are certified for passenger service. One of the most connonly used spurs in the one on CPW at 72nd St. Often in the AM a north-bound D wil be brought in on the local if an A is approaching on the express. The D will go up the local and X over to the express north of 72nd St. through that spur. Customers ride it without problem.
I would have expected a distinction between sidings that function as parts of crossovers (the one north of 72 on the SB 1/2/3 is pressed into use often) and sidings that only connect from one track back to itself. Guess not.
But you've answered another question of mind -- whether B's and D's will sometimes use the wrong track at 59 (to avoid a stopped A or C) and make corrective action afterwards.
"But you've answered another question of mind -- whether B's and D's will sometimes use the wrong track at 59 (to avoid a stopped A or C) and make corrective action afterwards. "
I've seen that move made many times but it's favored by only a few managers. Most favor running the D express up the local track to 135th St.
There are other times when those tracks are used in revenue service. The one between Ct. Square and 21st. onthe G is used often during G.O.s Most of the IND 'sidings' (the one at 72nd St. is called "The Spur") have a Wye at either end so you can X between north and southbound tracks or go north to north (or south to south) if the need arises.
What about southbound? If an A is sitting on the express track, might a following D switch to the local track? Or how about a B in either direction? In all those cases, using the siding is necessary (to avoid holding the train before the station, that is).
Is there a distinction between a spur and a siding? The one at 72 IRT is only useful now to switch between local and express tracks (and, I suppose, to bypass some sort of temporary defect on either through track, or to allow track work there to take place); IRT trains have grown considerably since that spur was installed (although they're still as thin as ever!).
The move can be made southbound as well but with less of a purpose. The only time it becomes useful is if there is a delay at 59th st. and the switches north of 59th are blocked.
Occasionally, during G.O.s, the spur tracks between 125th St and 145th St are also used for revenue service. 5 track and 6 track @ 135th St. are roughly 3-4 trainlengths long. As with other IND spurs, you can go from express to local, local to express, local to local or express to express, in either the northbound or southbound direction.
My mistake. I had (mis)placed (in my mind) the sidings in question between 59 and 72, and had figured, based on this thread, that they served as local-express crossovers. I just looked at the track map and I see that there are dedicated crossovers just north of 59 in addition to the sidings between 72 and 81.
So let me see if I have this right: If a NB D arrives at 59 at the same time as a NB A, the D is (sometimes) sent to the local track. It proceeds to stop at 81 (to let the A get by) and then switches through the siding to the express track. Am I close?
Very close. Except that the D would switch from the local track north of 72nd St. into the spur and emerge on the express track south of 81st St. Which train would go first would depend on which was running late(r).
Sorry, typo on my part. The D would stop at 72, not 81 (unless it was decided to send the D first).
BTW, I do owe you a word of congratulations on your fleet. Although, as you know, I don't find the R-68 the most pleasant of the TA's cars, they are by all measures reliable, and that's what really counts.
Except for the IC's.
Was it the incident with the moron on the Q that got you yelled at for BO IC's.
I don't believe I said I was yelled at. If I did, it was not meant literally. In reality, the D line Supt. raised the issue of inoperative ICs.
You might have said something like 'called on the carpet' (where does that come from, royalty?)
Not Royalty! I would suggest that it came from the fact that the 'boss's office might have been carpeted.
Wuh-oh ... carpeteria duty ... I know that myself. Well, if'n you need a pup-tent and can shovel snoo, we'll put ya up. :)
It would largely depend on whether the track was certified for passenger use or not. Some siding tracks are certified for revenue service. The middle track at Court Square is one of them. In the previous thread that you referred to, we were specifically speaking of track 69/26 in Jamaica yard only.
What would lead some tracks to be certified and others not? I believe you mentioned signal protection. This particular yard track had a few AK's but no conventional three-aspect signals. Does that qualify as signal protection? How much (roughly) would it cost to implement a series of AK's on track 69/26 in Jamaica Yard?
The whole security in the yard is based on permission to move, AK's defeat this.
I don't think speculation about cost of signalling the Jamaica yard Loop track is relavent here. The utility it would provide would not make for a wise investment (Although I know at least two here who would disagree). If you look at the Jamaica yard track layout, going north every train would have to cross the entire plant twice, once in and once out. This would severely limit the number of trains that could loop the yard. (And no, you can't run cars backwards around the loop because of the car wash machinery.)
So you got a chance to go over the derailer.
Please elaborate!
Ok the storage tracks at 137 Street have derailers before the Switch on the 137 Street side. Thats in case a lay up hits the home signal for whatever reason OR is layed up with lack of handbrakes and rolls it will derail before hitting the main line.
The only derailers I have seen on active tracks are mechanically connected to the associated track switch so that trains can pass the derailer whenever the switch is set for movement to/from that track and not otherwise.
Plain and simple TA makes the rules so they can change the rules when it needs too.
Since this G.O. is supposed to go to March would you like shuttle bus service for 3 months 24/7?
Do you think the TA's answer to that question was influenced by the neighborhood?
No. More like money and convenience.
Cool! Is it in effect at all times? I haven't been back there since that night; I wouldn't mind going for another ride through the yard.
About 1990 or so, the A line ran a General Order in which Southbound A trains ran with passengers into 12 track, Pitkin Yard, reversed on 7 lead to K1 track, re-entering the main south of Grant Avenue. There was also a D line G.O. in which D trains avoiding the Manhattan Bridge trudged through Chrystie Street to relay on the Willy B, and traveled south to Dekalb through the Montegue Street Tubes, just to keep the Brighton Line moving. Nowadays, the TA seems obsessed with buses, probably charges them to Capital and doesn't make these strange relays anymore.
A shame, no?
Did the D use 60-foot cars for that GO? IINM, at least today, 75-foot cars are not allowed north of Broad, although I don't think the problematic curves and clearances start until the bridge itself if not beyond.
I'd say the most similar GO to these in use nowadays is the 2 from Brooklyn via Joralemon, then backing down the East Side, going through the South Ferry loop, and continuing up the West Side. We'll have to wait a few months before that one can be done again; hopefully we'll still have railfan windows at the time.
I'm sure R68s were issued to the Concourse line at that time. R68s can relay on the bridge. Many N trains have taken wrong lineups in the Montegue Tubes, although I'm not sure if they can take the sharp switches North of Chambers Street. Bringing an R46 through Chrystie Street has been done already, I recall there was a fantrip so it isn't impossible. I wouldn't run one North and Southbound on the bridge at the same time though.
Today, after work, my train buff friend and I went to check out the progress on the Canarsie line at Atlantic Avenue. Interesting. After leaving Atlantic Manhattan bound, a train takes a violent switch to the right, goes up the ramp of the former K2 Fulton El track, and then swings into ENY. Also, they built a diamond crossover outside ENY to relay trains. The ramp to the J line going Manhattan bound has been temporarily severed, and K2 now goes THROUGH it. Yes, THROUGH it. Is the ramp they are using part of the original K2 ramp that lead to the Fulton El? Was the ramp in good enough shape that they were just able to lay track on it? Also, did the transistion to this new configuration take place over one weekend? It had to in order to keep service. The switch outside Atlantic on the Manhattan bound is wonderfully harsh! :) I hear they are going to rebuild the connection to the J line, but now that they can relay trains outside ENY on the upper level, they may wimp out.
Funny you should mention the Canarsie Line. I was shooting video on the line on Friday (in preparation for a BVE route). I had mentioned on the recording that the alignment of the tracks would follow what it said in P.D.'s Tracks book (the most recent version I have is 2.4). I shot mostly along the ramp where the line ran, then panned over to where P2 crosses J2A (the ramp to the Jamaica Line), showing J2A.
I also shot the R143's making the S turn north of Sutter.
I was with my aunt when I shot the videos (it was her camera). It was the first time she rode the R143 cars, and the only thing she didn't like about them were the "butt sink" seats.
There's an article in the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/03/nyregion/03TRAN.html
The restrictions on single-occupant vehicles and the shutdown of WTC PATH have maxed out the remaining options. Not one more train can be sent into Penn Station, not one more bus can be sent thru the Lincoln Tunnel.
I think the Manhattan real estate lobby has taken notice. They will see some of their tenants moving to Jersey, while having to cut rents to compete in a renters-market characterized by high vacancy rates.
So. They will push for more transit links to Jersey. Two more tracks under the Hudson to Penn at least. Perhaps a PATH extension.
And they will kick the Congressional Republican likes of Tom DeLay in the nuts: being anti-transit and anti-New York is one thing, but not when it hits fatcat real estate moguls in the pocket.
NYC needs to play hardball. Why should Jersey commuters have an easier time of it when the Lex is just as maxed out? If there is to be more to New Jersey, there has to be more in Manhattan: the 2nd Av subway.
I think the problem with Penn is that there just aren't any places to park the trains. So even new tunnels to Penn would do no good, since the trackage isn't there to support the new trains.
OTOH, a new WTC station that could also take NJ transit, and possibly at least some LIRR would give new options to commuters, and open up slots at Penn for additional service there.
I don't know of the feasability of moving some LIRR service to GCT; that would open up slots for NJT as well.
(Of course, anything you move to GCT will increase traffic on the Lex, so you're trying to serve two masters with mutually exclusive demands.)
Another option perhaps would be some sort of Grand Central Terminal North - perhaps 125 between Park and Lex. MNRR goes there, so you'd add a crosstown line that would carry NJT from northern NJ (Bergen County, for example) to GCT-N, and a NYCT crosstown line on 125 from Broadway, (transfers along the line to the 1, A/B/C/D, 2/3 and MNRR/NJT/4/5/6) over to Randall's Island, then running toward LaGuardia, possibly merging with the 7 at some point. Possibly some LIRR service could be routed there as well (possibly using some extension tracks off the Hell Gate line from Randall's Island?). Of course, that would increase traffic on the Lex even more, and this is something that would be years off in the future in any event. I haven't really thought about it much, just throwing out an idea...
How is this? If they ever get the capacity, connect the Main and Bergen Lines to Manhattan. I think now that you mention it, the PATH should be rebuilt so that NJT and Amtrak can make a downtown Manhattan terminal.
Sounds good.
The advantages of a downtown connection should be obvious, though I don't know the fractions of NJ or LI commuters going to midtown or downtown.
And of course, the situation around WTC is much more plastic at this time than almost any other location in Manhattan due to the attacks.
But anybody whose destination is not in lower Manhattan or Midtown should be kept out of it if at all possible, which is where a Grand Central North would come in. It would also assist in the revitalization of Harlem, which in itself is a good cause.
They don't have to park or reverse the NJT trains at Penn Station. The trains could continue under the East River (there are 4 tracks under the East River vs. only 2 under the Hudson) to the huge Sunnyside Yard in Queens where they could be stored between rush hours. They already do this on a limited basis. The LIRR doesn't need much eastbound track capacity in the morning or westbound in the evening, since it uses the West Side Yard to store trains between rush hours. All that would be needed would be an additional single track tunnel under the Hudson, probably just south of the 2 existing tracks. The current eastbound track would become a reversible center track for peak operations.
Yes, this would work wonders. Really, ending a train at a major station isn't a great idea, due to the longer dwell times. End them in the 'burbs, so they can run right through the CBD without stopping to reverse. Or use loops (but that's not an option with the limited track space at Penn, or almost anywhere else in Manhattan for that matter).
Two words ... Sunnyside yards ... other end of Penn.
This sounds somewhat like the proposal I made a few months ago: Build the 2nd Avenue line as a four-track local-express line. The express would continue to the Bronx. The local would turn west and cross 125th Street, with transfers to all north-south lines. Perhaps at a later date, the crosstown line could be extended to LGA.
A very nice plan. I like it. Too bad we don't have the $$$ to accomplish it.
We don't have the $$$ to do much of anything right now.
"I think the problem with Penn is that there just aren't any places to park the trains. So even new tunnels to Penn would do no
good, since the trackage isn't there to support the new trains. "
Wrong, wrong wrong. The lack of Hudson tunnel space is THE problem. It is the HUGE problem. Trains waiting their turn to squeeze onto one track in each direction across the Hudson - solve that, and then we can talk about parking trains at Penn.
Penn Station capacity per se is a non-issue. Train throughput will improve when there are four tracks across the Hudson.
They could try longer trains into NYP. The PRR was running 22 car trains as late as the 1960's so Penn can definitly handle them.
That would require more cars in the fleet and, IINM, more locomotives per train. How many cars can an NJT loco supply with HEP?
Locomotives and cars are cheaper and faster to be completed than a new tunnel. NJT could just start running 20 car trains after buying the appropiate equipment and wait on a new tunnel for a few years.
NJT could go out tomorrow and lay prefab trackage extending service throughout the state and do what government is supposed to do: serve the people. I know because I've walked the empty cuts. Making more rail service instead of the private buslines would provide more commerce. Ain't gonna happen. CI Peter
Putting off a new Hudson tunnel is penny-wise and pound-foolish. Simply running longer trains doesn't address all the issues. You need more frequent service, and Amtrak needs its own tracks into Penn so Acelas and Metroliners don't have to wait for NJT trains to clear the track.
Of course more buses can be sent through the Lincoln Tunnel. Remind me, how are the lanes configured -- one bus-only and three for general traffic? Convert one general traffic lane to a bus lane and there you go.
I agree 100% with your last paragraph. Unfortunately, New Yorkers don't seem to count.
Of course more buses can be sent through the Lincoln Tunnel. Remind me, how are the lanes configured -- one bus-only and three for general traffic? Convert one general traffic lane to a bus lane and there you go.
True ... but I think the PA Bus Terminal is now at gate capacity just like Penn Station has no more slots. Buses are easier -- you can drop passengers on the sidewalk at the curb -- but in that area curbside loading & unloading could paralyze traffic.
(Plus when the NYT starts buildings its tall office tower between 40th and 41st on 8th Ave, the traffic around there will get EVEN WORSE.)
Couldn't part of 42nd Street be closed to private vehicles (except, perhaps, HOV's) during rush hours?
Actually ALL OF MANHATTAN south of 57th Street can be closed to private automobiles (save for those actually licensed to people who really LIVE in that area).
The streets are crowed enough providing essential access to trucking and other commercial needs.
: ) Elias
No it can't, nor should it. Private vehicles have valid reasons to be there, and at certain times of day they don't get in the way. I would not object, however, to steep tolls to keep unnecessary traffic to a minimum.
I do applaud you for remembering that Manhattan extends north of 57th Street. Most who make similar proposals seem to forget about us 1.5 million Manhattan residents.
Some of whom also live south of 57th Street.
Of course! But acknowledging only those of us north of 57th is still to be commended when many acknowledge none of us at all.
Penn station has plenty of slots. What Penn station doesn't have is a way to clear slots quickly; to do that we need another two tracks across the Hudson. You're looking the wrong way - turn around!
What is more important, 2 new hudson tubes or two new east river tubes extending from the NJT tracks to Sunnyside. The latter could be built much more cheaply.
What is more important, 2 new hudson tubes or two new east river tubes extending from the NJT tracks to Sunnyside. The latter could be built much more cheaply.
Hudson tubes, no question. There are already four tubes across the east river. That imbalance is the bottleneck. East River tubes might be cheaper but they wouldn't do a damn thing to solve the throughput problem.
The east river side sees double if not triple the volume of the Hudson side. Both rivers are bottlenecks, but the current setup has non-revenue NJT and Amtrak trains requiring conflicting moves onto the mainline.
True.
East Side Access, now under construction, will bring East River tube tracks to six from four (albeit two go to GCT).
It's high time something was done under the Hudson. Isn't a $5 billion tunnel already in an appropriation bill somewhere, introduced by a New Jersey congressman?
Eastside access is a waste of money. They should have built a cheaper NJT tunnel under the east River.
Incidentally, according to the article you cited, "The tiny Christopher Street station once handled an average of 3,700 passengers a day; now it handles 8,000." Funny -- my similarly tiny home subway station handled an average of 14,000 passengers a day in 1999 and probably handles more now that there's more local service(granted, crowds there are not nearly as peaked as on PATH), yet it gets no attention whatsoever.
The difference is that Christopher St has only a single, long stairway to handle both uptown and downtown traffic. You just can't move that many people into and out of the station.
The difference is that Christopher St has only a single, long stairway to handle both uptown and downtown traffic. You just can't move that many people into and out of the station.
As part of the PA announcement that they'd get PATH to WTC up and running within 2 years, they noted that improvements would be made to Christopher Street and 9th Street as well. I presume this would be a second staircase and/or elevator. Any notions on where and how, anyone?
All the midtown PATH stations' exits were originally into stores. The idea was that commuters would buy stuff on their way to/from work. It worked as predicted.
So, there must be extra tunnels down there somewhere!
All the midtown PATH stations' exits were originally into stores. ... So, there must be extra tunnels down there somewhere!
Doubt this is the case with Christopher. When it was built, it exited half a block from the waterfront ... that was not exactly a salubrious place for people to go shopping.
Ninth Street, possibly. I don't know what was on the site of the early Sixties white-brick building that now houses the single entrance, and don't know if the station runs uptown or southwest from there. If uptown, most of the original buildings there are still standing -- mostly small residential -- and if downtown, I rather wonder if there was a second entrance on the west side of Sixth Avenue near the former Women's House of Detention (torn down in the Fifties and site now occupied by a park). No major stores around there either, at least now.
14th and up, your comment applies.
Chritopher and 9th each have entrances at one end. The prevailing belief in other postings has been that each has a sealed entrance at the opposite end.
Does it matter that the single staircase is shared by uptown and downtown traffic? In the morning, almost everyone is coming up from the northbound platform. In the afternoon, almost everyone is going down to the southbound platform. PATH ridership is heavily peaked.
At my station, the northbound platform has a single exit (five turnstiles or so) with two staircases to the street. The southbound platform has a similar arrangement, and there is an additional rush-hour-only entrance with one staircase and three turnstiles.
I rode it today KDL-ALW:
- Cab-end truck giving weird "poof" noise upon acceleration, two to three times per stop, only occured when train accelerating hard just after a station stop
- "Poof" was very loud, about the same noise level as banging a sledgehammer on paving block. Could be heard in adjacent coach (01754)
- No loss of light during the "poof" sounds
- PA fully functional
- Train continued to operate despite this
- Jerking action during the "poof"
I told the T/O at Central, and he seemed to be driving at less-than-full-notch for the next few accelerations, and then the traction motors stopped popping after Porter. I asked him at ALW what was wrong with the train, he said "circuit breaker popping, it echoes in the tunnel" and then went on to explain that he isolated the No.7 motor and each traction motor could be individually isolated.
Was he correct? (I suspect the sounds I heard are more like that of a shorted circuit motor not tripping the breakers, thus going "poof".)
Some other T/O said that they only take the train out of service if it's a brake by-pass, and not a traction motor isolation.
Lexcie
Yeah, he was correct. After the "pop", the blue light on the side of the train was lit. He gives the train a reset and the breaker resets and the light goes out.
He probably said he was cutting the seven point. It's T-ese for motor cutout switch.
As for the cut motor versus the cutout brake, it's also true. If the cutout motor doesn't noticably affect speed, the train will finish the rush and then head for the shop. If a brake is cutout, it's diminished braking capability and requires the dispatcher to "manually block" or babysit the train the whole way. The train in front of the diminished capability has to call out when they clear a station and the dispatcher clears the diminished just to that station. It's a pain! They get rid of those as soon as possible.
The 1700's Jeff are DC motors and SCM controller underneath and cineston control. Jeff also 7 point cut out is another name for motor cut out, These cars were built in 1988 by UTDC Canada. Just to clear something up on 7 point cut out, when a 7 point is cut it cuts out he entire car both motors not just one. :)
I have to admit despite some lecturing from my friends at
Seashore, I don't have the MBTA roster memorized. Are the
01700's AC traction units, chopper or straight DC?
The popping sound could have been the line switch (aka circuit
breaker) dropping out from overload. If it were a shorted
traction motor, it would only make that noise once :)
I don't believe it is possible to cut out just one traction
motor and even if it were, there is no #7 motor. Perhaps
"Boston T Party" had the answer. Earlier equipment had a
cam switch on the main switchboard panel to cut out the motors
on a car (all of them, the whole propulsion system). This
was called an "X-point cutout switch", where X depends on the
vintage of the equipment. E.g. on IRT Hi-V and pre-1924 Lo-V
cars, X==10. X refers to the number of trainline wires which
are isolated when the switch is turned.
Here's the scenario. Lexie hears the breaker, it's a hard (or loud) breaker, when the train is drawing leaving a station. At the next stop, the guard spots the blue light and informs the motorman. The train starts out of the station and the motorman puts it in coast and hits a reset on the front panel. He then continues to accelerate which cause the breaker to pop again. At the next stop, the guard sees the blue..... etc.
They do this three times and then the motorman sends the guard to cut the 7 point in the affected car. And as pointed out, it does cut all the traction power in the affected car.
Most times, the breaker is a soft or quiet breaker and usually doesn't happen the three times. I had one today that blew twice over two trips and never was a problem the rest of the day.
I was looking at an old 1948 map of the subway system and I noticed
that the 14th street canarsie line had express stops. The train went from Lorimer St to Myrtle Ave non-stop. It also skipped Sutter ave. When was this discontinued?
The 14th St line used to be served by 2 lines, one to Canarsie, and one to Lefferts Blvd. via the old Pitkin Ave el. the Lefferts Blvd route ran during rush hours, from Lefferts, via today's A train, then along the now gone Pitkin Ave el to Atlantic Ave, where it then merged with the Canarsie line to go into Manhattan. This route skipped all stops from Myrtle to Lorimer St. It was discontinued in 1956 when the old el was closed.
Wow i never knew that. How many lines then actually served Atlantic at one time. It's amazing how far Atlantic on the L has fallen! A few weeks ago it was mentioned it is the least used station in Brooklyn besides the Shuttle!
Atlantic Ave was originally served by four routes: Canarsie/14th St (16), Canarsie/Nassau (14), Fulton/14th St(another 16) & Fulton St (13). But this station only operated at full capacity for 28 years (1928 to 1956).
There was a 5th line for 10 of those years.
What was the 5th line?
Was their a Lexington/Fulton route as well?
Chris: Although it was never offically assigned a BMT route number since it began after the NYCBOT took over the BMTthere was a Fulton-Lexington Line between Lefferts Avenue and Park Row,later cut back to Bridge-Jay Streets. Service began on/about June 1,1940 and ran until October 13,1950 when the Lexington Avenue El was discontinued.
Larry,RedbirdR33
From that starting date, I'm assuming this route was initiated to get those riders who used the Pitkin Ave. portion of the Fulton el to downtown Brooklyn after the Fulton el was closed west of Rockaway Ave.
Chris: I think the reason for the #13 Fulton-Lexington Route was to continue to give Fulton Street El riders a one seat ride to Downtown Brooklyn and Park Row(until 1944). At certain times of the day this train provided all service on the Lexington Avenue El and there were no #12's running.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Don't forget the Broadway Brooklyn Short Line, which ran from Broad or Chambers to Eastern Parkway, and sometimes Atlantic Ave.
It and Broadway Junction are truly majestic stations, and I would have loved to see them when they were at full service.
Broadway Junction, while not what it used to be, is still an amazing structure....even though the neighborhood isn't so great, it's worthwhile to go there duting the day and walk around it, and look at the structure from street level. When I was a little younger I did this a few times.
In fact, in general, I like to walk under big el complexes, you can really see things from a different interesting perspective.
I included that, as the #14 route.
The Queensboro Plaza complex and what it used to be was awsome. The Flushing line west of Grand Cental Parkway to Willets Point is a worthy study as well.
avid
The way I understood it from other posters on this board, since they didn't have an express track they timed it so the express left just before the local with enough headway so it didn't catch up with the train ahead of it. This way the people in Canarsie and Brownsville had a shorter ride without hurting the people using it to Greenpoint, Williamsburg, and Bushwick. I guess they got rid of it because it was only a two track line and the ridership didn't support it.
Jeff, When I moved to Canarsie in 1960 they still had an express service and i recall my grandfather use to take it. Canarsie was first starting to grow then and i believe that subway service was not as much as any other line. I believe that the express was discontinued because of additional service that was needed between Canarsie and Myrtle Avenue. Canarsie had huge growth in the early 1960's when the area was fully developed between Rockaway Parkway and Ralph Avenue. The area between Rockaway Parkway and E.108th Street was built in 1958 and 1959 but some construction was still going on in the early 1960's.
After the express service was stopped the TA started rush hour short trips between 8th Ave and Myrtle Ave but they were discontiinued in the early 1970's
Thank You
I believe that the express was discontinued because of additional service that was needed between Canarsie and Myrtle Avenue. Canarsie had huge growth in the early 1960's when the area was fully developed between Rockaway Parkway and Ralph Avenue.
Current service levels are 15 tph for the entire 14th St - Canarsie Line.
The 1954 service levels were as follows: 8th Ave - Lorimer 24 tph; Lorimer - Myrtle 12 tph; Myrtle - Atlantic 12 tph; Atlantic - Lefferts 6 tph; Atlantic - Canarsie 12 tph (with 6 tph each coming from the Broadway Short Line and the 14th St Line).
Eliminating expresses did nothing to increase service levels on the Atlantic-Canarsie leg nor could it. The only area to be "helped" by eliminating express service would have been the local stations. They did not need help.
Analysis would indicate that the 14th St tunnel trains average the highest load levels of all the Brooklyn to Manhattan services during the AM peak period.
Here's a question that has bugged me for some time.
On four-track lines with the inner lanes as express, why are there different configurations for local and express stations? (I know the obvious reason...)
Why not simply construct all stations in the "express" configuration with two island platforms, with the local trains stopping at all stops, and the expresses stopping only at selected stations?
To me it's the obvious choice. It provides
1. Less confusion - the station layouts are more standardized.
2. Less confusion - the door always opens on the same side with little fluctuation between one stop to the next.
3. More flexibility in designating express stations as demand shifts. For example, if there were an event drawing many people to a "local" stop, the expresses could be temporarily instructed to stop there. Same if a new subway line were built with transfer to the existing line at a "local" stop - it could be redesignated an "express" stop. If an express came up to a crowded platform at a local station, it could make a special stop there to relieve the crowding. In addition, temporal variations in local and express stops (for example, stops which are express only at rush hour or on weekdays) could be more easily implemented.
4. If it were determined that the demand for express service is small in comparision to that for local service, then both sets of tracks could be used for local service (i.e. load the local trains from both sides of the platform). Or the inner tracks could be used for express service during rush, then local otherwise (this falls under the point raised in #3).
Is there some pressing reason why the side platform layout is preferable to island platforms? If it became a problem that people were frightened by the trains going by at high speed, a fence or temporary wall could be erected on the inner sides of the island platforms; converting the station to "express" would then only require removing the fence or wall (or possibly just sections thereof, like the South Ferry inner platform and many stations in other transit systems).
The stations at 34/7th Ave (1,2,3), 34/8th Ave (A, C, E), and Atlantic Avenue (2, 3, 4, 5) have a three platform layout with a common express platform for both directions. That's because:
-There's no room above for a mezzanine between the street and platforms, which is needed at a typical two platform express station.
These three stations are immediately below street level.
-The next stops northward (Times Square and Nevins) have typical two platform layouts where customers can transfer between express and local.
-These stations serve major commuter rail hubs where the additional platform is useful for handling large crowds and discouraging express to local transfers.
>>The stations at 34/7th Ave (1,2,3), 34/8th Ave (A, C, E), and Atlantic Avenue (2, 3, 4, 5) have a three platform layout with a common express platform for both directions. That's because: <<
Yes - these are a few oddballs. But what about in general?
>>-There's no room above for a mezzanine between the street and platforms, which is needed at a typical two platform express station. <<
What about a station with side platforms? Those in general have some sort of crossover, too. If you can't build a crossover of some sort between two island platforms, then you likely couldn't do it for side platforms either. You have two entrances on opposite sides of the street (like 110th St. on the Broadway line).
One possible issue would be for the stations so close to street level that you couldn't do it. In that case, go with the side platforms out of necessity. Even then, it might be possible to go with island platforms if:
The entrance could be made on the curb lane (where you wouldn't/shouldn't have cars moving, only parked/stopped), or
The trains in the local lanes could be run a little further out, to go somewhat under the sidewalk (the stairs to the island platform can even infringe a little on the train's path, so long as it safely clears the roof, though this might present later restrictions on rolling stock replacement).
Or, just make the station a few feet deeper so you can do one of the above (you don't need a full mezzanine, just a few extra feet so some sort of stairs from the curb heading toward the street and thus down to the island platform can clear the train).
A more circuitous design would be to have curb access to a crossunder, from which you can go up to the platforms.
These alternatives would presumably leave only a few as odd cases in which suboptimal design is mandated by external conditions.
>>-The next stops northward (Times Square and Nevins) have typical two platform layouts where customers can transfer between express and local. <<
>>-These stations serve major commuter rail hubs where the additional platform is useful for handling large crowds and discouraging express to local transfers. <<
These are significant issues - discouraging local/express transfer at additional stops, and additional capacity at major stations. I'd imagine there are ways to do this (such as using the 3-platform side-center-side setup for a few stations in which you think in advance that this would be an issue). If the 3-platform station is converted back to local, then simply stop using the center platform.
Alternately, you could use two somewhat wider island platforms, with a wall or fence down the middle. The station wouldn't be significantly wider (since you're getting rid of the third platform in the center), and you can't transfer from local to express. If in the future such transfer were desired, one could simply remove the barrier.
But then why not in the capacity cases a 3-platform setup with island platforms between the local and express, and a third down the center? If you want to discourage cross-platform transfer, or keep the express customers off the outside platforms, then open the train on the inside, to the center platform. Otherwise open the expresses on the outside to make the station operate as a "regular" express, or even open them on both sides for serious "crowd control!"
It's a good question but really has no relevance to systems already built. No existing subway is going to rebuild its four track segments in all island platform configuration. As far as new systems are concerned, virtually all (e.g., Washington METRO, SF Bay Area BART) are two track trunk routes.
The other problem is the theoretical issue of which stops would actually be express stops if all stations had four tracks and two island platforms. Becomes a political hot potato, Case in point - the 61/Woodside stop on the #7 was a local stop for a brief period after 1987 (?) when the line was rebuilt and express service restored after a multi-year period of local only service. After a public outcry express service was restored at Woodside.
I know that it would be completely impractical to rebuild existing stations. My question was, why wasn't it done this way in the beginning?
That is, construct all stations along the four-track route with two island platforms. The few exceptions discussed above (high capacity issues, and discouraging local-express transfer), do with three platforms - two "express" islands and one in the center, or with two wider island platforms with fences down the middle to prevent people from going from one side to the other. The fewer cases where the station must be constructed so close to the street level it's impossible to have a mezzanine, then you use two side platforms, but only out of necessity.
>>The other problem is the theoretical issue of which stops would actually be express stops if all stations had four tracks and two island platforms. Becomes a political hot potato, Case in point - the 61/Woodside stop on the #7 was a local stop for a brief period after 1987 (?) when the line was rebuilt and express service restored after a multi-year period of local only service. After a public outcry express service was restored at Woodside. <<
Yes - this is an interesting issue. If my local home station had the capability of handling express trains, I could be a YIMBY (yes, in my backyard) could scream to the MTA, "Why can't you make the express stop at my-y-y-y-y-y home station? What about moi?" At least the way it currently is, they can stuff their hands into their pockets and say it's impossible (or that ALL service would have to be terminated on the route for 24 months in order to do it, which to the YIMBY is equal to "impossible").
I suppose the MTA would just have to take a hardline stance on it, perhaps by constructing temporary walls on the inner sides of the island platforms (most people wouldn't even know the express train ran there, and those that did would understand enough about the workings of a subway system to know why the train didn't stop there). If they did decide to run express service, then they'd just have to knock down the temporary wall (which could probably be done over a night, or a few nights at most without massive service disruption). Or they could just give a technical mumbo-jumbo explanation: "Well, in order to stop there the tracks need hyperventilated pneumatic brake discombobulator valve shafts, which would require 3 years of service disruption and $17 million to install."
In any event, the example you describe is of a station that was an express station for a long time, then left as local after a long period of service restrictions. I think it's entirely normal to want a return to the original service.
But if usage of the station drops dramatically or something else changes, then the MTA should be entirely justified in converting a station from express to local (which it can do now in most cases). The reverse should be similarly true, in an ideal world.
I think that the best system is used on the Queens Blvd. IND where the express takes a more direct route and the locals between Queens Plaza and 74th Street take a more circuitous route away from the path of the express tracks. For example, the local has a stop at Steinway Street which is a busy shopping area deserving a station, but the express is quite a bit away from Steinway in its more direct route.
The only other instance I know of this is on the IND built part of the F line in Brooklyn where the (unused) express tracks takes a more direct route than the local between 4 th Avenue and Church Avenue.
If you treat the combined Broadway - 4th Avenue lines as the BMT mainline, then the express leaps over the Manhattan Bridge for the express run from Canal to Pacific.
Yes - this is nice, but it requires 2 ROWs and makes it even more difficult to convert local stations to express and vice versa. I suppose it is nice in the outer boroughs, where the local can snake between one densely populated area and another (since there's no necessity for them to lie on a straight line), while the express takes a shortcut. This might be good for outer boros, when an area is already built up (so you have a pretty good idea where the demand is) - narrow 2-track line through the densely populated areas, and a separate 2-track line away from the population center, weaving in and out to meet at express stations.
It's actually going in the other direction from my proposed system (making all stations potentially functional as either local or express), which would probably be better in Manhattan (and downtown Brooklyn and similar places), since it only needs one ROW, and provides maximum flexibility in future evolution of the line.
I think the biggest reason why you can't do that is the safety of passengers waiting at the platforms.
Express trains run at very high speeds, and could injure passengers standing right next to them as they run by. When trains have to bypass a station on the station track they have to slow way down.
You can hardly call *that* an express anymore.
Elias
Well, expresses USED to run at very high speeds, anyway.
It's a CONSPIRACY, man! :)
Yeah, a conspiracy to make RAPID trainsit LEISURELY transit.
The IND 59 St station has a track/platform/track/platform/track/platform/track layout. When I lived in NY (pre-1973), the center platform was used, at least in rush hour, for A and D riders. Doors on both sides would open. From the track maps on this site it appears that the center platform is no longer used.
I would guess that the express trains (i.e., thru trains to/from 8th Av) at Hoyt/Schermerhorn opened on both sides while the Court St station was in service.
Yes - according to the track map (available on this site), there is indeed a center platform at 59th, which is plotted as unused. The A, B, C, and D all stop there, and IIRC they all use the outer island platforms.
At Hoyt-Schermerhorn there are six tracks and four platforms: T-P-T-P-T-T-P-T-P-T. The outermost of the two platforms are plotted as unused (though the description on this site says they and the outermost tracks are used solely to access the NYC Transit Museum, though they used to carry local service to Court St.). The middle and inner tracks are used for the G and A/C, respectively, using the inner two platforms.
I still remember when the center platform at 59th St. was used; in fact, I've gotten off a northbound A train onto it and boarded a southbound D train (of R-32s, no less; may have been an R-32/42 mix) from it.
The center platform at 59 is chained off and unused. (It's not hard to climb over the chain to reach the platform, but you'd be in direct view of the other two platforms and you'd probably be instantly arrested.)
About ten or twelve years ago, the IRT crossunder was closed, and passengers were directed to the IND platforms instead. IMO, the middle of the center platform should be reopened as an IRT crossunder.
What do you mean IND crossunder? The center platform allowed for a crossunder for the IRT. How come it's not possible on the in use platforms?
I meant IRT not IND crossunder.
There is a dedicated IRT crossunder. It's closed now.
Currently, the middle IND platform is closed. Passengers are directed onto the two in-use IND platforms.
I'm suggesting that the middle platform be reopened, to function as a crossunder. Crossunderers wouldn't have to mix with the crowds waiting for the IND, but safety wouldn't be an issue since the middle platform is in direct view of the other two.
I understand what you are saying. it would be good to have a dedicated transfer. A similar problem exists at Canal Street. The Canal bridge platform is way to narrow to handle passengers waiting for trains and people transfering between the M/J/Z,6, and N/R, especially when a Q or W is platformed and just dumped more people on the platform. It wasn't so bad when the platform was abandoned, because people just moved through the station. Not that I see any other way of having the transfer, but with all the people standing waiting for the Q or W on the platform, transfering requires you to walk right along the edge of the platform sometimes! The platforms are very narrow. One day I see someone falling in front of a train at that station.
Yes, Canal is pretty bad. I doubt this is feasible, but I'd like to see a passageway parallel to the platforms but behind the wall (on either side) for transfer purposes only.
Yes, a good idea. For safety sake I'd include a chainlink fence to keep transferees with in the bounds of the columns from stairway to stairway. This would insure safety and keep the place clean and the T/Os from worry about a twosided platform. It would easy congestion in time , after those that crossunder learn thet don't have to bob-n-weave through those passengers waiting for ind service.
avid
With the discussion of multiple platforms, I'm curious if anyone knows how the HH Shuttle from Hoyt-Schermerhorn to Court reversed at Hoyt? How many cars were used on each train?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
It probably ran on one track, but I'm not sure which platform at Hoyt it originated. I'd be interested to know if the Fulton St. trains headed for Manhattan opened both sides of their trains to allow cross-platform transfers to the shuttle.
It's pretty obvious if you look at the track map ("Brooklyn Heights") on this site.
- You can only use 1 track because there are no crossovers.
- There are side platforms not currently in use that could serve the A/C and the shuttle but not the G (which runs down the 2 center tracks).
Did normal two track service ever use Court street, or was it a shuttle right from the beginning? It couldn't have been long, because I believe the shuttle only ran 10 years or so.
To my knowledge, there was never "Regular" service to Court St. It was only a shuttle, and not for very long.
1936 to 1945 to be exact.
I believe the original intent was for the Fulton St. local to terminate there, hence the meager two tracks continuing from Fulton to Eighth Ave. If this original plan was ever put into practice, it wasn't for long.
:-) Andrew
Hagstrom's 1948 IND map still shows the Court St. stub and lists the HH as running between Court St. and Broadway-ENY. By then, of course, Court St. had been closed.
Hagstrom's maps had the Myrtle & Culver lines still operating into the 1980's.
Surprise, surprise.
The suffolk one still has some abandoned LIRR stations on it, and even the Nassau one did until fairly recently, like Meadowbrook.
South Farmingdale, a station that must have been abandonned a hundred years ago, has appeared in the Nassau atlas as recently as the late 1990's, if not even the current edition.
:-) Andrew
HEY! *I* am NOT that old and I remember very well riding LIRR trains that stopped at South Farmingdale ont he Central Branch!!!
If you wanna see REALLY outdated information, try DeLorme Street Atlas USA CD-ROM's. Until version 6.0 (about three years ago) the railroad that exited the tunnels at Hunterspoint Avenue and had a big yard past Roosevelt Avenue was labelled as....PENNSYLVANIA RR!!
In a hagstorm nyc atlas that I have, the K train and the JFK train to the plane are still on the map and its from 1996!
PATH station maps STILL have the Train to the Plane!!
The all-new digitzed Hagstrom 5-Borough street atlas has the passenger station symbol on the LIRR Bay Ridge branch at McDonald Avenue- site of the old Parkville station. It stands separate and apart from the passenger station symbol depicting the Avenue I subway station around the corner.
I've only glanced at the atlas in bookstores and haven't actually bought it yet. There's probably a treasure trove of other such errors.
Well into the eighties, Hagstrom had the Dyre Avenue branch as their presentation of a West Side line- thick, dark line- and the White Plains Branch as East Side- two thin lines running parallel to each other. This was the service pattern until what, about 1962?
Ed: The "HH Fulton Street Local" shuttle service between Court Street Station and Hoyt-Schmerhorn Streets Station began operating on April 9,1936. Trains ran Monday through Saturday from 7am to 7 pm. The May 11,1940 schedule has HH trains leaving Hoyt Street from 701am to 654pm and leaving Court Street from 705 1/2am to 658 1/2pm. Based on this short turnaround time I would venture to say that only a single track was used and I believe it was the westbound but I cannot say for sure. The alternative would have been to relay on the middle track between Lafayette Avenue and Clinton-Washington Avenues. Trains ran on a 10 minute base headway with a rush hour headway of 8-10 minutes. I do not know how many cars were used.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One of the reasons that Penn station on the 7th and 8th have a 3 platform design is because they did not want people transfering b/t local and express there. The figured the crowds would be great enough with out having people jumping off of locals to the express.
Not a bad idea. It's one I've had before.
But the traditional local station is cheaper, and it's preferable to have the station as close to the surface as possible.
But this leads us to a new subthread: If all of the local stations were constructed as express stations, giving the TA the option of converting stations from local to express or express to local, what would be different today? That is, which would be the express stations if the TA could pick any?
Most transfer stations deserve to be express stops. 14th on the F, Bleecker on the 6 (especially if they do a passageway to the uptown 6).
By the way, even though we are generally in the realm of fantasy to consider converting any stop to express service, note on the 1959 system map available on this site that 59th on the Lex is local, whereas by 1964 it has become an express stop. That must have been quite a project!
Also, as amazing as it sounds, Times Square was at one time a LOCAL station. By the same token though, I'm sure there are stations that were designed to be express stations, but don't warrant being express stations now. This is probably especially true in the outer boroughs like Brooklyn.
Also, as amazing as it sounds, Times Square was at one time a LOCAL station.
True, although only for a VERY short time .... from 1906 til the southern portion of the west-side IRT opened (is this "Second Contract"?). And from what I've heard, with the NYT building and all the theatres there, it was obvious almost from the start that it was a disastrous mistake.
There are still a few remnants of the old local station: One section of curved brick and tile wall (southwest end of shuttle) and the semi-famous "Knickerbocker" hotel doorway (southeast end of shuttle).
The shuttle station at Times Square is the original Times Square local station -- with necessary modifications, of course (including a platform over the original southbound express track and a moveable bridge over the two original northbound tracks).
They brought a piece of the old wall with a name tablet up to one of the fare areas where the Times Square Brewery building was. Now the whole building was dismantled, except for the fare contraol area.
They brought a piece of the old wall with a name tablet up to one of the fare areas where the Times Square Brewery building was. Now the whole building was dismantled, except for the fare contraol area.
And that fare control area closed this morning and has been boarded up til "Summer 2002" according to the signs.
Am I the only one who thinks that Times Square station is going to be frighteningly crowded and hard to get into/out of?
They've just closed the largest entrance (as above) on the S side of 42nd between Bway & 7th Ave. That leaves the new one on the NW corner of 42nd & 7th (Reuters Bldg), the changing one on the SW corner (Ernst & Young Bldg), the narrow stairway on the SE corner of 42nd & Bway (bldg covered in construction cloth w/Gap on the ground floor) ... and maybe the old local entrance from the N side of the Shuttle. I think that's IT. (Plus some stuff on 41st Street that few people seem to use)
Plus half the mezzanine over the 1/2/3 is boarded up to provide a work area for storage. The work that's been done so far will definitely make the station better, but that is THE most crowded station in the system and it is now MUCH harder to get in and out of.
I think your fears are unwarranted. That station has many, many exits. One, in the 41st Street IRT mezzanine, recently opened (late summer, IIRC). That makes three exits in that mezzanine alone, plus one near the south end of each BMT platform, plus one near the south end of each IRT platform (currently closed, but scheduled to reopen this month), plus everything you mention, plus all the exits at the other end of the passageway to 8th Avenue. Despite what you seem to think, the 41st Street exits are well-used, primarily by IRT riders.
The IRT mezzanine (I assume you're referring to the one at 41st) used to be a bunch of narrow passageways. It's been opened up and now it's huge. The blocked-off area in the middle is for elevators, I think. In any case, there's still a lot more room to maneuver. I transfer between IRT and BMT frequently, and I almost always go that way now.
You're referring to the Dual Contracts portion which extends south along 7th Ave. from Times Square. The Contract Two portion extended the original line to South Ferry and Atlantic Ave.
Yes, the planners of the original Contract One route really dropped the ball (no pun intended) when the Times Square station was made a local stop. It became the most popular local stop along the original line, so much so that theater owners went so far as to unsuccessfully petition the IRT to install crossover switches near the station so that express trains could also stop there.
Get this: the error was almost repeated when the Dual Contracts were signed. Luckily, someone realized this would be a huge mistake before construction began and plans were revised to make Times Square an express stop on both the IRT and BMT lines.
74th Street on the 7? Express.
The express platforms at 59th St. on the Lex were carved out of the rock the line goes through. Not as difficult as, say, threading the 6th Ave. line through the maze at 34th St.
Columbus Circle/59 st on the 1
An obvious choice -- but what do you do with the rest of the line? 96 has to be an express station, since it's where the 2/3 split from the 1. 42 has to be an express station; I needn't explain why. Are there no express stations between 59 and 96? If so, locals would be overburdened even more than they are now. If not, then there isn't much of an express run. But perhaps the good express runs are best reserved for sections of the line that aren't quite so busy.
Wanted to get an early start because today I was going to SI and take some photgraphs.
I took a 7 express from Flushing at 8am, and got to GCT aroun 8:25am. Went to the downtown lex platform. A Redbird 4 pulls in packed to the gills. I had to get on this one since I wanted to make sure I got 9am ferry. This was the most crowded train I have ever been on, there wasn't any breathing room. It was packed like sardines until Wall st when the whole train emptied out. I got off at Bowling Green and walked to S.Ferry. The area is very busy, it seems lower Manhattan is back to life (with the sad exception of Chinatown).
It doesn't help they don't mention Chinatown in those I love NY ads.
Anyway I had the John F. Kennedy, but fortunately no cars got on (cars should be banned permanently from the ferry).
Got the SIR train at St.George and took it to Tottenville where I took some pics. Then I took a bus along Hylan blvd and made some stops along the way (Mt.Loretto, New Dorp, Eltingville) in that order, even though there was some backtracking. Now I got some pictures of SI, NYC's forgotten borough.
Went to the mall for a little while then took the SIR from Eltingville to St.George where I got some more pictures. I was hoping to get a shot of the small B&O signals they use, but most of them are only in between stations so that would be hard, but they are still there. Ride on SIR was pretty fast, those R44's ride more like LIRR cars than subway cars (we knew this already of course).
Going back on the ferry I had the Lehman. I have a sensitive nose and noticed the "smell" as we neared S.Ferry terminal.
Once we got there I went down to Whitehall st and took an R. This was around 5:30pm and this R train was packed after Rector. Jam packed, usually it is not this bad. I heard some vaugue announcement of a police investigation somewhere.
At TSQ I pried my way out of the jam packed R46 R and went down to the 7. The express arrived on the other track, the one that leaves on a diverging route, whereas the local arrived on the south track.
There was congestion going east a bit more than usual, and once on the express we passed 3 locals and caught up to a 4th at Shea. Looks like the line was backed up or something. Saw track workers near Woodside interlocking on the Main st bound local track, maybe there was a problem.
The area is very busy, it seems lower Manhattan is back to life (with the sad exception of Chinatown).
It doesn't help they don't mention Chinatown in those I love NY ads.
It's bad enough that the Times runs these whining articles about how bad things are in Chinatown (and Little Italy too), this week the Village Voice has one as well. What is conveniently forgotten is the fact that both neighborhoods were deeply troubled well before September 11th. Mystical girls aside, Chinatown has been looking increasingly run-down, untidy, and non-prosperous for years. September 11th merely exacerbated the decline. As for Little Italy, it has long since ceased to be a neighborhood in the usual sense, having been reduced to just a couple blocks of third-rate restaurants.
I will agree the trouble in Chinatown started before Sept.11th, but the rate of decay accelerated quite rapidly since Sept.11th.
I wonder if the MTA has kept statistics on the Canal st complex (N,R,Q,W,6,J,M). I'd like to compre ridership stats from August till December.
Interestingly Chinatown was alot busier two weeks after Sept.11 than 2 months after.
It seems like the SIRT R-44s are pretty fast cars compared to the R-44s used on the regular subways. Even though the fires are out at Ground Zero I guess at least to you the "smell" still lingers. I'd probably be able to smell it as well despite the fact that I have a concealed cleft palate. Though it affected my speech slightly, it hasn't affected my ability to smell. Under good conditions my nose works quite well.
#3 West End Jeff
IIRC the SIRT R-44s still have the final field shunt step enabled.
Did they remove the time delay doorchimes on them?
The time delay on the door chimes on the SIR R-44s was removed when the cars were overhauled. The later (R-46 through R-68A) style door chimes were installed, without a time delay.
David
The door chimes also sound different on SIR 44's, and I like it, just like the added field shunt step.
Hopefully they won't disable the final field shunt step just to slow the cars down. Slow cars aren't needed on the SIRT. They aren't needed on the subway system in general either.
#3 West End Jeff
Damn straight!
It's very easy to notice. The 44's have much faster acceleration. too bad the field shunt was removed on NYC subway cars. Another over-reaction in the name of safety.
When the accident occured on the Williamsburg Bridge the train was going uphill at perhaps 30 mph. Even with the field shunt removed such an accident could still happen.
#3 West End Jeff
Since the removal of full field shunting, "standard" NYC subway cars (pre-R-110) have difficulty maintaining, let alone increasing, speed on up-grades, particularly on long ones.
David
With all due respect, we dont need to know about every trip you take.
With all due respect, no one is forcing you to read posts that you're not interested in.
Fred: Last night I answered your question about when the D-Types ran on the Sea Beach. I also offered to by you two hot dogs at Nathan's the next time that you come east if you could tell me the date of the last regular revenue run of the D's and the line that they ran on.
Whatsamatta? Don't you want the hot dogs.
Best Wishes,Larry, RedbirdR33
"I R T" Where we still have the "RAPID" in Interborough Transit.
I think we put him off his lunch a few days ago, but that's a prohibited thought. :)
If he don't want em, I'll take em!
BTW, I went by there a couple weeks ago (Christmas eve to be exact), and they have a buy one get one free on dogs at Nathans. You can print out the coupon from their website, or they give you one when you buy something there.
For a second time, I was able to go to the Training Facility at Livingston Street. I did the E line from Jamaica Center to WTC. This time, I've got pics! They are dark though cuz the cab light didn't work :-\
The files with custom in the name are resized for dialup:
Enjoy!
How does a non-TA employee access the sim?
You don't. Security has gotten tighter at 130 Livingston Plaza since Sept. 11th. I've been in the building many times on official business, but the training areas are basically off-limits to non-TA folks.
Mr rt__:^)
I glad you had fun. Know only if they let me in to play with there Simulator.
I was down there twice they said Conductors are not allowed to use it Train Operators Only.
I glad you had fun. Know only if they let me in to play with there Simulator.
I was down there twice they said Conductors are not allowed to use it Train Operators Only.
Clayton, think about this: isn't it stupid not to let people who want to learn ??? I can operate any trainset...it is part of my job...to test in static conditions. What I will do is to DL the BVE simulator with updates....probably far better than PS248 or whereever. CI Peter
Actually, if the new sim everyone's talking about is based on BVE's rendering engine, it'll make for a VERY good sim. Given Ed Yee's FINE work on the 143's and the Franklin shuttle route, if I were a TA wiglet, I would have had motor instructors using BVE for school car and a mockup panel. In fact the QUALITY of Ed Yee's work was the reason why I *had* to do the "real thing" when I came to the city (both some cab time in a REAL 143 as well as the Frankie) and Ed did a WONDERFUL job on it all ...
Download that puppy, Peter ... anyone who's done the real thing can really appreciate why the BVE sim is far and above what MSTS is ...
Thanks for the high praise. Wait till you see the R68A. Interactive controllers!!!
I check in every couple of days. Two fisted ops is the only way to go. I'm also waiting to see what you do with the Q ... but knowing what I can expect when you're done, I'm willing to wait. :)
But you SURE do crank out good stuff ...
It sucks
On my way to work tonight, I saw another notice that the subway surface lines are going to divert nightly once again after 900p, for some more construction.......i have two points on this
1)What is SEPTA installing, I hope it's not that new signal system which had the system closed for most of last year at night...whats the holdup?
2)Is anyone else annoyned at all these system closures. It's hell for those who live near these lines. You close all subway surface traffic after 900p, you have to wait on dark, cold and dangerous 40th street, where a SEPTA Police offficer or supervisor is not even there to protect passengers, and then on the weekends you have the El shutdowns. I'm all for system inprovements, but why stress your existing riders. Why not use the overnight hours to get this work done, the subway is already closed at that time anyway
The subway-surface is out for two reasons. One is the signal system installation (STILL!). The other is various rail projects, one of which is on the EB east of 19th St where there has been a long-standing slow order.
Why the El shuttles can't start at 40th for the west side outages is is beyond me. SEPTA insists on doing this at 15th, which creates traffic problems with all the congestion already there on the surface and rider confusion with the 'courtyard' stairs and escalator (NW corner 15th & Market) out due to construction. Ending train service at 40th also allows better connection if/when the subway-surface is on diversion. Go figure. The current feeling seems to be that weekend riders aren't worth the worry.
On January 2,2002 a approximately 3:30pm. Service on the MBTA's Orange Line was halted for approximately 3 hours and substitute bus service put in place when a 23 year old man from Sommerville,MA decided to jump under the train heading for Forest Hills at Sullivan Square in Charlestown, MA getting himself caught between the third rail abd the running rail. I was there today and you can see where he was hit by the sand spread around and the trail of mush they were not abe to clean up. Photo was in the Boston Globe today.
Hey gang,
The 14th St./Canarsie L Line as we know is a local service on its entire run. I am wondering if there ever existed an express service on this line as I have an old Hagstrom subway map from around WW2 that indicates express stations in addition to the local stations. As I have never noticed any express "cages" in the stations, was this service, if it did exist, skip-stop? This would have been one of the few types of express runs that by-passed local stations with out a cage of girders, whooshing by the open platforms. Perhaps the Hag map is in error and it is now a collectable rarity. ;)
Tunnel Rat
Several old Brooklynites explained this some years back, but in case they aren't looking, I'll give you their answer.
There is a turnaround track beyond Myrtle, were a "local" waited to leave. As the "express" left Myrtle, if followed immediately behind. The "express" skipped nearly all the stations on the way to Manhattan, with the "local" falling further and further behind. The "local" would arrive at 8th Avenue just ahead of the "express" behind it.
Repeating this pattern would be difficult today -- it takes the TA longer to turn trains around at terminals. These days, the TA is more likely to go with skip stop. But you need 20+ trains per hour to limit the wait at any individual station, and the ridership has to justify that amount of service.
>>As the "express" left Myrtle, if followed immediately behind. The "express" skipped nearly all the stations on the way to Manhattan, with the "local" falling further and further behind. The "local" would arrive at 8th Avenue just ahead of the "express" behind it. <<
Wouldn't the express eventually catch up with the local just ahead of him ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Nah, Zman was piloting the local. :)
The idea was that with a 6-minute headway on each, the express would gain about 4 minutes--i.e., the express left a minute BEFORE the local and arrived 8th Avenue a minute AFTER the local in front.
Same thing they do with the "zoned" expresses on MN and LIRR.
It works out well on the LIRR Babylon branch, running express and local on the same track. It's all timing. Of course the subway runs many more trains, so it's much harder to get it to work.
Wouldn't the express eventually catch up with the local just ahead of him?
The reason this service worked is because the BMT exploited the differences in operating characteristics between the Multi's and the Standards. The Multi's ran as locals and the Standards as expresses. This reduced the differential between a local and express.
They ran 24 tph on the 14th St line or 150 second headways. The time in seconds out of Myrtle would be: 0(E); 90(L); 300(E); 390(L); etc. By the time they reached Lorimer the relative times would be: 0(E); 210(L); 300(E); 510(L); etc. Both trains made all stops between Lorimer and 8th Ave. The Multi's would gain on the Standards because of their higher acceleration and braking rates. By the time they reached 8th Ave the relative times would be equalized: 0(E); 150(L); 300(E); 450(L).
Was the connection at Lorimer for the G there yet? If it was, it would be bad to skip Lorimer. Did the expresses stop at Lorimer? How long did this service last (and when)?
Before 1940 it didn't matter - the BMT could care less if you could connect to the IND or not ;-)
My 1931 BMT guide shows the express service - it was weekday rush hour only -westbound in the am and eastbound in the pm. The guide only states that the service was express between Lorimer and Myrtle so I assume it stopped at these stations. My 1937 BMT guide shows an additional rush hour express service using the 14th Street Line - this operated from Lefferts Ave (Fulton St Line) to 8th Ave (14th St).
If the Lefferts trains ran as expresses, it means that the Multis were running express, as the Standards were too big and heavy for the old section of the Fulton St. El over Pitkin Ave. Seeing as only 25 Multis were built, that meant that in rush hour, they were essentially all assigned to the 14th St-Fulton St service.
-- Ed Sachs
Yes, this is so. In the "Cars of the BMT" book, it is stated that the multis ran on the 14th St/Fulton route during rush hours. Other times the multis ran on the Canarsie/14th St route, until 1956.
After 1956, the Multis ran on the Myrtle-Chambers route, rush hours only. By that time they they were suffering from defferred maintenance and they probably needed to patch them up during the day for one or two more round trips in the PM rush hours. The head end route signs on some of them were stuck on '13' (the number of the Fulton St line, used on the 14th St/Fulton expresses), leading me to incorrectly conclude in 1960 that 13 was the number of the Myrtle-Chambers line (should be 10). They were finally retired in 1961, replaced by Standards from the southern division freed up by the arrival of the R27s. All were scrapped - none remain.
-- Ed Sachs
All were scrapped - none remain.
And what a shame that was ...
"the Standards were too big and heavy for the old section of the Fulton St. El over Pitkin Ave. "
That was one of the reasons the Multis were built.
Also, the later "R-39" contract (never built) was a similar idea, lightweight stainless steel cars for the BMT (presumably the Myrtle). I can't think of any other BMT els they might have needed lightweight cars for, because the Fulton El was already taken over by the A by that point, correct?
They must have had alot less trains running on that line, in order for express and local to run on the same track.
There was a plan at one time that involved skip stop on the L line. What ever came of it? I never heard anything again. There is a gray letter on some trains, Y I think, that is reserved for this service. Someone on subtalk a few weeks ago see the gray "Y" (or whatever letter it is.
The existing skip-stop line and the one that ran through the morning of 9/11 don't have 20+ tph.
Just heard on 1010 WINS that TA plans to rebuild the tunnel and have the 1/9 line open by next fall. They will not reopen the Cortlandt St. station at that time, though, just Greenwich and South Ferry.
Here's hoping that Cortlandt stays closed til it can be integrated into a rethought and redesigned Hudson Terminal PATH station ....
(If this was covered earlier on the site, my apologies.)
Here's a link to the story on the WCBS 880 Web site. (Yeah, the stations are co-owned, but we compete. Just like GM's Chevrolet and Buick Divisons.)
I guess that means all the thinking about relocating the line and reconstructing the South Ferry terminal was just hot air.
-Hank
Just another free-standing, Subtalk misbelief powered by railfan fantasies (= railfantasies?).
If we start a thread about it, that is what will come to be, right???
MATT-2AV
It was pretty quick before this one evaporated due to lack of funding. Most subfantasies are sustained way longer.
Ya dont think having the 'wealthiest mayor
in NY history' had anything to do with this
promptness, do ya??... naaaah... ;)
If so, I like Mike
The relocation of the line was just one of three options. The decision was made to rebuild in kind for the first part of the restoration job in order to expedite the restoration of service down to the Ferry. Per my understanding of the current thinking of this restoration, the reconstruction of South Ferry (i.e. platform lengthening to accomodate 10 cars etc.) is envisaged to be done on a future contract. Also in a future job,the Rector Streets stations on the IRT and BMT would be connected and the Cortlandt street station made a part of a transit hub with neighboring lines and railroads as a reader wrote.
the reconstruction of South Ferry
(i.e. platform lengthening to accomodate 10 cars etc.)
We're already havin' enough trouble trying to
rebuild portions of a tunnel... to reconstruct
the SF station itself would require an extending
of the loop (yes, Virginia it IS a loop station)
and breaking down additional tunnel portions
(inwhich consist cars 6-10 await) which could
possibly run right into Rector on the head end.
Keep it a loop... aint many like it.
The loop would be kept as far as I understand. The loop is needed in the event of a General Order in the 2/3 tunnel so they can route trains down the 1/9 line around the loop up to Bowling Green and up to Wall street and then change ends and go on to Brooklyn.
The loop needn't be changed. In fact, the idea I hear is that the loop would be kept and the platform used as a walkway to the Ferry which would be in a new terminal bldg. The So Ferry terminal would have straight platform three layup tracks. Possibly under Battery Park. This is not a 123 project.
I'm still having trouble envisioning where this new SF station would lie. East of the existing station, you have to worry about the Broadway line and connection to the Montague tunnel. Underneath the loop are the 4/5 tracks to the Joralemon tunnel, and the 4/5 tracks are intertwined with the 7th Ave tracks at the north end of the loop. That leaves west of the station, which might put it kind of far from the Ferry terminal (it will be moving somewhat to the northeast once the new (old) terminal is repaired), you need to worry about infringing on the BBT and BP Underpass, and would likely require a great deal of excavation in Battery Park.
Also, if a new SF station were going to be built, any chance of having a connection to the Joralemon tunnel, for possible alternate access (if only for emergencies - remember the J on 4th Ave?)
I can't come to picture SF having
3 layup tracks!?....
I know - it's just unthinkable, not to have the curved platform, the chains along the platform boundary, the gap fillers bzzzzing out to meet the opening doors...
I tell ya, one time I did have fun there - I think the T/O overshot the mark, or the gap fillers weren't working. The train sat there for a few minutes, and finally the C/R came around keying the doors open, and we had to step over the gap to get off the train. Ahh, the good times in that old station...
One gets the impression from this story that Cortland St. will demolished permanently. Is that so?
My impression is that it'll be rebuit whenever the whole WTC complex is rebuilt, hopefully with integrated walkways that connect all train lines plus the WFC. Maybe 2006-2008.
One gets the impression from this story that Cortland St. will demolished permanently. Is that so?
From the Times article:
"The Cortlandt Street Station, which is directly beneath the trade center plaza and was heavily damaged, will be demolished, and the shape of any new station in that area will be part of much larger plans for redevelopment and a memorial at the trade center site, officials said."
It was already demolished, on September 11.
The whole platform wasn't demolished at Cortlandt, was it? In pictures, it looks like at least part is intact.
Its like a car. The insurance company gets to decide when it is totaled. Sure there may be some parts that aren't damaged, but it hardly matters at this point.
Not entirely. It was heavily damaged.
The term is 'structural failure'. It's not that parts of it are not still standing, but that the damage is so severe that its remains must be removed if trains are to safely go thru it. Besids the station, there are two tunnel segments with equally severe damage.
It is both faster and safer (and probably cheaper) to rip out nearly everything and essentially start from scratch.
Will Cortlandt be opened again when the new WTC is opened or will it be removed as a stop forever?
Will Cortlandt be opened again when the new WTC is opened or will it be removed as a stop forever?
It will likely be rethought and combined into a new transit hub that includes IRT "Cortlandt" station, PATH "new Hudson Terminal" and BMT "Cortlandt" station. This will be much later than the line will open, though. The existing station will probably be removed entirely with only the tracks remaining by the time the line opens.
Much SubTalk speculation on various designs, linkages, alignments, etc. in other parts of this thread.
It's such a waste/shame. They did such a nice job redoing the station too.
Certainly.
If it's any consolation, the mullahs at Kandahar probably put some effort into their headquarters. But it was too ugly to stay up, so our B-52s demolished it for them. Even took out some of the architects.
Free of charge. Such incredibly good customer service...
I kind of like the idea that a #1 train goes to Brooklyn once again, even if it is for only a short duration. It will probably drive my Brighton friends groggy, but I did like the Brighton's old #1 desigination of yesteryear, and the fact that the #1 now goes to New Lots Avenue is somewhat a bit of nostalgia to me. I hope to ride it when I come to New York. That's just my opinion on the matter.
You're thinking of the BMT station. The IRT station was redone when the WTC first opened, and like most other 70's rehabs, it was pretty ugly.
You are right it was the N/R station. Well at least that will open again.
Actually, it took about seven years or so after the WTC opened before the Cortlandt IRT station was rehabbed. Between the demolition in the late 60s and the WTC construction in the early 70s, the station's tile work was in pretty awful shape by around 1973, and stayed that way for the rest of the decade.
Once again, the MTA goes for the "quick and cheap" fix.
Once the line is open, forget about improvements.
I'll offer my comment as I offered it over elsewhere ...
Here is yet another sad convergence of POLITICS and NYCTA ... seems pretty apparent that the federal money to cover NYC taking a punch in the face for the REST of America is being met with the political "drop dead" again from the swine in DC. Of course ENRON gets their money back.
MTA Board apparently has read the tea leaves and realizes that things HAVE TO get back to normal one way or the other. I'm sure this decision is also a piece of Mayor Mike's pragmatism ... "let's get it going somehow for now and see what we can do later." I *hope* this isn't the end of the story but lower Manhattan needs those lines restored by whatever means is possible and as QUICKLY as possible.
But half a subway is better than none, especially when the House of Texans decides to stiff New York. Again. We can all argue over "politics" but the end result is always NYC getting shafted by those who build highways that only armadillos use while we're SOL ...
I won't argue with your view of Texans' opinions about New Yorkers. And I don't doubt we'll get shafted in the future too.
But this just wasn't the right place to spend the money. It's only 500' from Rector and West to Rector and Trinity. A $20 million bridge over West at Rector will do almost as much for lower Battery Park City as a $1 billion project to move the 1 over to West St.
And the workers at the WFC will benefit more from walkways truly integrated into the entire subway system than they would from a station at Vesey and West that most of them wouldn't use. Those walkways will really be worth the money, and we'd better spend our own money on them if the feds don't give us any.
Agreed ... but let's hope that some federal pork DOES manage to come to NYC. After all, we're all paying MORE that enough as it is for taking a stabbing from whiners down south who got a mere dusting of snow and are totally losing it. Somehow I think what WE got was a bit worse. :)
You should see what happens when it snows in Denver. DOT panics and starts dumping gravel, gravel everywhere even if the roads are merely wet. People in SUVs spin their wheels at intersections. It's ridiculous.
Heh. You ain't seem them deal with snow in South Carolina yet ... now THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT. :)
You ain't seem them deal with snow in South Carolina yet ... now THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT. :)
One of the funniest video clips I ever saw was from an Atlanta station that parked a camera near a cloverleaf during a snowstorm. The drivers came slowly down the ramp and either slid to the outside ditch, joining a row of cars already there, or to the inside ditch, ditto.
heh! I took my driving test (in Rochester, NY) when it was 4 degrees below zero and 14" on snow on the ground. Couldn't parallel park 'cause the spaces were full of plow-piles, and never got out of 2nd gear. Take THAT, sunbelt weenies!
Smallbany myself, February with 26 inches on the "parallel parking test" ... that my examiner wasn't killed was good enough. That I did the parallel park while the PLOW skidded was "instant car-ma" ... heh.
I got my license on September 11, 1973. Drove around the block once, with the examining officer bouncing all over the seat (he wasn't wearing his seat belt while I was). Wayne remembers that day for another reason.:-)
Heh. I did OK, the plow didn't ... I'll leave it there. I passed with flying colors, just like school car. Did about as well out on the REAL road which is why NANCY drives. :)
Last January in Hastings-on-Hudson where I live I saw somebody get stuck in an SUV in a minor snowstorm of all things. I just kept rolling along in my 1998 Honda Civic with four snow tires.
#3 West End Jeff
OK, I just got back from having to drive through the snow in Arizona, as in the south there are two types of problems:
1.) Drivers (pickups and SUVs especially) who don't understand the meaning of the term "black ice" and think if they can see the white stripes on the Inrterstate, that means it's OK to do the speed limit of 75 mph.
2.) State highway departments who don't want to have to worry about rust damage to their overpasses (hello, I-90 and I-81 upstate) and throw sand on the things in snow and ice conditions, which naturally gets knocked off the road after the first two or three truck-tractors have gone by.
Fortunately, I think Chevron or some other company has come up with a road de-icing chemical to replace salt that's supposed to last about 24 hours. Hopefully, a few of the southern state highway departments will actually buy some.
We've got 8 inches so far up here where I-87 crosses I-90. We're sitting and watching videos of Georgia residents fighting the mighty half-inch drifts in the company bar. CSX is remarkably silent too - back in the Gonerail days, a foot wouldn't have slowed the railroad down at all ...
I was stuck for eight hours on an LIRR train west of Patchogue during the great Blizzard of `69 (actually it was just a good blizzard; Lindsey's screw-up with the Sanitation Department turned it into a great one), and the lesson seemed to be if you let the trains stop running for a while the more snow there's going to be on the tracks later on.
As for snow driving, hopefully the next time Austin, Tex., gets an ice storm Time Warner's NewsChannel 8 down there will share some of its fun footage of I-35 drivers with its sister NY1 station -- talk about clueless motorists, especially on the downtown viaduct, which naturally ices over first.
Yep ... have got folks living down in the Carolinas and when it snows, they stay home, gather in the bay window and watch the hijinx. And yes, if you stop the railroad, you'll need a snowblower when you decide to open back up. Looks like about 10 inches here, CSX is doing their thing and all's well. Upstate, 10 inches is like an inch and a half in the city ... no big thang. :)
Oddly enough, my aunt, uncle, and cousins from Atlanta were HERE when the snow hit Atlanta. They laughed at the footage on CNN of the highways.
-Hank
We thought it a hoot also in all sincerity ... musta been rough piling through those half inch snowbanks. Now for anyone from the sooth who si about to get honked at me for these words, we did 14.8 inches overnight and it's now at 15.2 as it starts the BACKLASH of the Low, a new binary Low about to barrel through for the daytime hours. We'll probably get up to 20 inches by nightfall, not that there's anything wrong with that.
FORTUNATELY, I'm an indentured servant with the software company here, so I *live* on company property ... when it DOES get plowed, I'll be able to leave ... whenever that actually occurs. Heh. Such is the life upstate. If NYC got something like this though, it'd shut down entirely, the trains would be on panic schedule if any at all, and here, everything's running. The main roads were clear last night. Amtrak's ON SCHEDULE and so is CSX and CP ... one inch of snow down on the Island though and LIRR would be in BIE and NYCTA would be running the SETs ... gotta love the difference. :)
Hell yeah it was rough! I got the bottom of my shoes wet from the snow. :) Here, if one snowflake falls, schools are closed and everyone gets into a wreck. MARTA was running normally, however. Don't blame us though, we only get snow once a year, if that, and 5 inches is about tops.
Heh. Been down 85, know the drill. But for ANYONE who knows what to do when the road turns white, gotta admit, it's better than going to the mousetrap in Orland0 ... we just passed TWO FEET of snow since sunset last night here, and it's coming down harder than between 10 and midnight when we got 8 inches over those two hours ... Thank GOD those of us who call upstate home are used to this, even if it's been a year since the last glopping like this.
For those who complain about city life though, this one snowfall is going to cost MORE than $600.00 out of "upstate pockets" where the rents are MUCH cheaper (so are the wages) just to put it in perspective. FRONTLOADERS ... the municipal Zamboni is BURIED. :)
Lucky for us, heavy snow doesn't seem to disrupt light rail schedules. Then again, most of our light rail running is on private ROW.
1.) Drivers (pickups and SUVs especially) who don't understand the meaning of the term "black ice" and think if they can see the white stripes on the Inrterstate, that means it's OK to do the speed limit of 75 mph.
Truckers don't understand either - my son-in-law being a prime example. He jacknifed on a bridge near Prescott in mid-December; by the time the snapping and banging stopped, the nose of his truck was buried in the side of his 53' trailer. When our daughter called and told us I tried to be sympathetic, but I'm not sympathetic to the point of giving them the down payment on a new rig like she wanted me to.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Magnesium chloride? They use it here in Denver. It's welcome on the freeways; they're actually dumping less gravel now. The drawback is that if you don't wipe it off your windows within 24 hours or so, it becomes as hard as concrete. Even if you do wipe it off, it leaves a greasy film. Water or cleaning solution will do the trick.
There's some peddlers selling an ALCOHOL and Ethylene Glycol based product for $40 a gallon as a liquid that you put on roads (used in Alaska) and guarantees 14 days of clear road even if it snows again.
What we found works best on our own private highway up the hill is plain old corn squeezings and a good bit of sand. Amazing what the SUN can do if there's something darker than snow to catch its attention. But for serious snow protection, alcohol and some fat (ethylene glycol) works wonders at altering the 32 degree scientific constant (Zero C pour les Canadiens) ... same stuff they use to de-ice airliners with variations in mixtures ...
Verr-rr-rrrrry interesting.
Yep ... another theory shot to hell though THIS snow - we got just under 19 inches, put out our goop and now it's slick and LUBRICATED. Agggh. :)
Sounds like the same deal as we used to do up in Syracuse when the temperatures finally got above 32 degrees -- head to the self-service car wash and hose that sucker down completely, top and undercarriage, before the water and sodium chloride meltdown started working its way through your car's panels (the alternative was to follow Rod Serling's advice and Zeibart your whole auto, but that was kind of pricey for a youth of my limited means...)
But this just wasn't the right place to spend the money. It's only 500' from Rector and West to Rector and Trinity. A $20 million bridge over West at Rector will do almost as much for lower Battery Park City as a $1 billion project to move the 1 over to West St.
And the workers at the WFC will benefit more from walkways truly integrated into the entire subway system than they would from a station at Vesey and West that most of them wouldn't use.
On the whole, I agree.
PROS:
- line gets back up and running within a year
- 1/2/3 service gets back to normal
- elevators get added (hthe NYT piece) to S. Ferry & Greenwich
SORRY ... very touchy keyboard ... here's complete response!
But this just wasn't the right place to spend the money. It's only 500' from Rector and West to Rector and Trinity. A $20 million bridge over West at Rector will do almost as much for lower Battery Park City as a $1 billion project to move the 1 over to West St.
And the workers at the WFC will benefit more from walkways truly integrated into the entire subway system than they would from a station at Vesey and West that most of them wouldn't use.
On the whole, I agree.
PROS:
- line gets back up and running QUICKLY (within a year)
- 1/2/3 service gets back to normal
- elevators get added (hints the NYT piece) to S. Ferry & Greenwich
- Cortlandt gets integrated into new transit complex whenever it gets designed & built
- Feds pay for all/most of the cost
CONS:
- S. Ferry stays as is (5 cars long)
- Long-term (50 years) flaws with this line don't get addressed
On the whole, given AlM's arguments ... I think TA made the right choice.
The question is: Can the TA and PA cooperate to build something that truly leads to better interconnections among subway riders, PATH riders, ferry passengers and whatever gets built above? Or, can they actually benefit the folks who pay the fares?
(I'd *love* to see cross-platform transfers between PATH and IRT and/or BMT, but that may be asking for too much ... )
I fully concur with all your pros. If speed of reconstruction is the main criterion, then the MTA's limited plan is the best option.
However, if the reconstruction of the damaged portion is done in a manner that would preclude any later changes, then we are back to being locked in to a bad design.
Perhaps the MTA could design the rebuild with a bellmouth to allow them to take the 1/9 to the west at a later date, if appropriate, and also leave room for interconnections with the B Division (WTC and Rector Street) and PATH.
PS - the reason you won't see a cross-platform transfer to PATH is the vertical separation between the 1/9, E, and N/R services and the PATH line -- to keep the grades at a reasonable level, the PATH station would still be at least one level below the others.
Perhaps the MTA could design the rebuild with a bellmouth to allow them to take the 1/9 to the west at a later date, if appropriate, and also leave room for interconnections with the B Division (WTC and Rector Street) and PATH.
Hmmm. A western extension would have to turn under the WTC site (the part to be rebuilt) and penetrate the bathtub. Since it sounds like a large chunk of the eastern half (east of the bathtub) will already be transit, I have to wonder (a) how much bathtub space such a line would chew up; and (b) whether the resulting line would make much sense. Much better pleasant underground walkways to WFC/BPC, I'd say ... and much, MUCH cheaper. I'd bet no bellmouth gets built.
the reason you won't see a cross-platform transfer to PATH is the vertical separation between the 1/9, E, and N/R services and the PATH line -- to keep the grades at a reasonable level, the PATH station would still be at least one level below the others.
Probably true, although old Hudson Terminal was considerably higher up than the WTC 7th-level-basement station. But no doubt PATH stays a level below the IRT. How bout stacking northbound and southbound platforms, so Jersey folk coming in on PATH could walk up a flight of stairs onto the 1/9? There are fare-control issues, but by THAT time PATH will surely take MetroCard ....
AND, as part of the rebuild/rethink, what about connecting the E terminal at WTC/Hudson Terminal into the N/R? J Lee and others had a long discussion about this a few weeks ago. You probably have to get rid of, or radically rethink, the Cortlandt BMT station to do proper flyovers and flyunders to avoid switches across active lines. But think of the flexibility THAT would bring (IND through BMT tunnel, BMT up 8th Ave!). Note also that the TA has not yet said anything about the BMT Cortlandt station.
All of your points make good sense.
The Hudson Terminal platform elevation was (is) 15-20 feet below the N/R level.
Those are very well thought out pros and cons. What is best in the minds of railfans isn't always the best solution (for better or worse). The only thing I am a little dissapointed about is that South Ferry will not be upgraded to accomodate 10 cars. Am I not taking my own advice?
I'm not sure you will ever see cross-platform transfers to the PATH, as it is at a much lower evelation and the line comes in at a perperndicular to the IRT lines. Someone's got to make a 90 degree turn. However, better transfers between all (PATH, IRT, IND, and BMT) lines are a must.
MATT-2AV
I'm not sure you will ever see cross-platform transfers to the PATH, as it is at a much lower evelation and the line comes in at a perperndicular to the IRT lines. Someone's got to make a 90 degree turn. However, better transfers between all (PATH, IRT, IND, and BMT) lines are a must.
The elevation issue is valid, but while the tubes enter Manhattan east-west, the platforms at the old Hudson Terminal ran north-south between the IRT and BMT ... so you could do upstairs/downstairs if they move one or the other.
Probably better passageways are the realistic solution, but it would be great to make transferring REALLY easy and stack them ... plus, probably cheaper to build a single two-level PATH/IRT station than two separate ones (since both gotta be rebuilt from scratch).
I agree. It would be cheaper to build one station shell instead of two.
Because they are not going to open the Cortlandt Street Station after rebuilding the damaged tunnel segment, perhaps your plan can be put off for now??? I heard the report on 1010WINS this morning, but they weren't specific on how much of the Cortlandt Street station, if any, would be rebuilt. If it will be totally rebuilt in the future, your idea may not be ruled out.
MATT-2AV
Assuming that after the 1/9 rebuild you don't want to shut down any operating lines, then the two "givens" are the 1/9 and the N/R.
What you could do is move the E station to the west (it is at a higher elevation than the 1/9, as is the N/R), and relocate it to the south to allow a single station complex with the E, the N/R, and the 1/9. The PATH is below the whole complex, and could be joined with ramps.
You also could put a pedestrian walkway or use moving walkways to connect that complex with Fulton/Nassau -- allowing a transfer between all lines in Downtown.
I heard from a reliable source and not a kooky railfan, that the TA if toying with the idea of building a new three track South Ferry station along side of the curent one.
When the construction ends, they would tie it in with the curent loop station. The loop station would remain for miscelaneous moves and not demolished. This would address the problem of making South Ferry a 10 car station. There is no way of making the loop station capable of 10 cars. And please, let's put to bed this silly notion of returning the Bowling Green shutle to service. It's dead and buried and let's leave it that way.
Bill "Newkirk"
Would not having the loop slow down service on the line though? I know someone had mentioned that in an earlier post. Although, most terminals are not loop terminals, aside from the 6, so I don't know if that is a real factor.
>>Would not having the loop slow down service on the line though? <<
I don't know, I guess the #1 service would have to be adjusted to reflect a stub end terminal like the rest.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since the SI ferry does not operate at 30 ferries per hour, there is no real need for 30 1/9 trains per hour.
If the loop is preserved, not every train has to stop at SF. If three tracks are built at SF, they would be able to handle maximum thruput of trains. With a 3-track station plus the loop, there would be no problem whatsoever with capacity.
Since the SI ferry does not operate at 30 ferries per hour, there is no real need for 30 1/9 trains per hour.
Oh, come on, Mark! There are other people than simply ferry passengers who use that terminal. And, a SI Ferry carries a helluva lot of people. Could you fit an entire rush-hour ferry onto a single 10-car IRT train?
Not everyone on that ferry will use the 1/9. Some walk to their destination, some use the N/R, some walk to the 5/6 at Bowling Green.
However, it still took two trains to clear out South Ferry after the arrival of an AM rush boat.
According to the 1999 passenger counts, at least five local stations on the 1/9 had more passengers than South Ferry.
Yes, when averaged the SI Ferry throughput isn't awfully large (about 65,000 passengers per day, of which some fraction use the 1/9 (and only half of it at that due to the short platform), some other fraction use the 4/5, some other fraction use the N/R and some other fraction walk to their destination, with possibly a few who take buses or taxis, or stay on to return to SI).
However, ferry usage is highly peaked toward weekday rush (much smaller number of passengers off peak or weekends), and even at rush the boats operate on 15 or 20 minute headways, giving a noticeably "pulsed" distribution of commuters entering lower Manhattan.
And a single Barberi-class boat holds, IIRC, about 7,000 people - more than enough to completely stuff (sardine style) about 3 full 10-car IRT trains. The Kennedy-class holds about 4,500, still enough to fill up 2 10-car IRTs.
Now you've done it! David J. Greenberger is going to start another rant that the 1 needs a minimum of 30tph because he lives at (all together now) THE 55 BUSIEST STATION.
lol....................David, any comment?
Not a minimum of 30 tph. It needs more than the 12 tph it gets now, that's for sure. And it would be nice if the service that's there makes all scheduled stops on a regular basis. Go stand at 42 or 72 in the afternoon rush if you don't believe me.
If my station alone were busy, that would be no big deal. Since all five local stations between 42 and 96 are among the 70 busiest stations, it is a big deal.
Oh, I believe you it just amazes me. Before 9/11, did both the 1 & 9 stop at all those stations? Where did the skip stop end, and both lines start stopping?
Yes, both the 1 and 9 stopped at all those stations. Skip-stops were only made north of 137 St.
I stop at those stations every afternoon and I'm usually right on top of another train, since my leader leaves V.C. 4 min. ahead of me and 3 min. from New Lots.
Then either you're routinely the follower of one of the frequent fallen-way-behind-schedule-so-it's-sent-express trains or the posted schedule unabashedly lies.
You figure it out I just checked my records for the past year and I did the run you complain about exactly TWICE.
Ah, so you must pick up the angry crowds at the express stations after being betrayed by your leader. I'm sure I've been on your train. Look for me about 1.5 car lengths from the south end at 72.
"I heard from a reliable source and not a kooky railfan, that the TA if toying with the idea of building a new three track South Ferry station along side of the curent one."
I think the TA was moving very slowly with he 1/9 lines because it was waiting to see what sort of funding would be made available for the construction of a new line from Chambers St to south ferry and a transportation hub at the WTC when it's rebuilt. Given the age and design of the old line, a new tunnel with new stations would have been the most desirable option.
However, this situation no longer exists. The governor has publicly stated that it will be possible to restore 1/9 service to South Ferry by December 2002. This mandate clearly limits the TA options to one: Repair the damaged tunnels. Open the Rector St. and South Ferry Stations. Bypass the Cortland St. station (completely destroyed) until it can be rebuilt. The TA has its marching orders....
The governor has publicly stated that it will be possible to restore 1/9 service to South Ferry by December 2002. This mandate clearly limits the TA options to one: Repair the damaged tunnels. Open the Rector St. and South Ferry Stations. Bypass the Cortland St. station (completely destroyed) until it can be rebuilt. The TA has its marching orders....
But let us hope & pray that the TA and PA can work together to do something SMART with the Hudson Terminal site, 1/9 Cortlandt station, N/R Cortlandt station and E WTC/Hudson Terminal terminus.
The PA has in fact committed real money to study the situation and come p with a smart plan that includes walkways from the WFC to Broadway, integrated in with the subways and PATH.
That doesn't mean it'll happen, but at least the odds are better than in other cases.
Finally..someone with the intelligence to believe "the greatest good for the greatest number."
If there were ever a no-brainer this is it. The current havoc on the #1/2/3 is solved, the trains go back to their normal terminals, and two of three stations get service back (including South Ferry with its heavy tourist usage).
South Ferry isn't very busy (1999 numbers), and Rector is the least busy station on the line south of 207th Street. See this post.
The real advantage is that locals will have a place to turn in Manhattan, increasing capacity on the line as a whole.
Finally..someone with the intelligence to believe "the greatest good for the greatest number."
Yes, we all know about Bentham and Mill. What they failed to notice is that would justify great evil toward a minority for comparatively small good for the majority. Even Hitler was put there by a majority of sorts (coalition with the DNVP).
What they failed to notice is that would justify great evil toward a minority for comparatively small good for the majority.
Well, as the accused here (or the prior recipient of a completely unexpected compliment), I find it a stretch to declare NOT moving the 1/9 to be a "GREAT evil toward a minority" ....
Finally! A person with the intelligence to see "the greatest good for the greatest number."
Given all circumstances the plan announced today is the best approach and helps far more people than those who might be incovenienced.
Why is there seemingly Dire (not 5) need
to make SF a 10 car station??? The loop
is what makes the station unique.. (Union
Sq. a CLOSE second).... and besides,
135th (?) on the 3 is a 5-car platform...
and I don't recall anything unique about
THAT station... :s
For one thing, it doesn't attract many tourists. The people who use that station (145, not 135) are likely to be aware of its configuration.
And for that, we have our C/R who open the fullwidth
cab door to let tourists access the rear cars of
a 10-car consist... besides, what a jolly pastime
it is to watch tourists scurry towards the
aforementioned full-width cab each time they fail
to "move towards the front" at Rector...
They MUST have built SF this way for a reason...
and if it ain't broke... why fix it?
They built it this way because IRT cars weren't originally as long as they are now. Why do you think most of the other IRT stations have been lengthened?
(Speaking of which -- can I assume I'll see you at Park Place in eight hours for the tour?)
What tour?
Look here. The meeting place has been moved to Park Place by the oculus.
Five cars do not adequately take care of the passenger crush from a rush hour SI ferry.
There is also a plan to incorporate the station itself into the paid area of the SI Ferry terminal itself.
The ferry is free.
Good catch, David...
Thank you!!!
Spend the money where its needed!
There are whole regions of the City, typically outer boroughs, that do not have adequate rapid-transit at all. Why spend over a billion to move the line a block when an underground walkway can accomplish the same. I'm very partial to moving walkways like the type you see in the airports.
MATT-2AV
Once again, the MTA goes for the "quick and cheap" fix.
Once the line is open, forget about improvements.
But at least something will get done. It's better than spending massive amounts of money to relocate the 1/9 in a project that will take many years to complete.
Not to mention the thousands of 2 & 3 riders inconvenienced by the inability to use this line.
Some of us can actually use the 2 now. And it still isn't enough!
The 2's crawl down Manhattan from the Bronx is intolerable. Full express service must be restored. Whether or not the Broadway local has enough service is a seperate issue.
The 2 running local has got to be pure torture for the Bronx passengers. Just imagine you were a passenger getting on at the beginning in the Bronx, and your destination was Brooklyn! At least before, the run through Manhattan was express!
I rode it yesterday. It took 90 minutes to get from Flatbush Ave. to E180th St, and that's with the train skipping Franklin, Canal, Christopher, 18th & 23rd. St stations due to a delay.
The current timetable (which reflects post-September 11 operations) says it should take 65-1/2 minutes (in the AM rush) from Flatbush Avenue to E. 180th Street. Obviously something major happened on the line to cause that train to be approximately 25 minutes late even after being operated express for part of the way.
David
Even if the 2 ran express, it would never get from Flatbush to E180th in 65 minutes. It took exactly one hour to get from Flatbush to 149th St/3rd Ave. pre 9/11.
My mistake...need new eyes or new glasses or something.
A train leaving Flatbush Avenue at 8:30-1/2 AM is scheduled to leave E. 180th Street at 9:49-1/2 AM, which is 79 minutes. Sorry...
David
That's more realistic, but I was still 11 minutes late.
Agreed, but again, something major must have happened to cause even an 11-minute delay even after running express partway to make up some time.
By the way, did the total 90 minutes include the wait for the train at Flatbush Avenue (and, while I'm at it, was I correct in assuming that it was an AM rush trip?).
David
No. I timed it from our leaving time (11:46 AM). We arrived at E180th at exactly 1:15 PM. We moved very slowly from Atlantic Ave to 135th St.
It gets worse! I just realized that my copy of the timetables doesn't contain a weekday timetable for the #2 (I looked at the Saturday without realizing it), nor does it contain any #1 timetables...I'll have to look into that...
David
The December timetables are on the TA web site now. I have the previous set of timetables on my hard drive; if you need a timetable, just ask.
Currently, the 11:46 2 from Flatbush is scheduled to arrive at E180 at 1:05. However, if Chris had transferred to the 4 at Franklin (12:02) and back to the 2 at 149-GC (12:44), he would have ended up one interval -- eight minutes -- ahead (assuming everything was running on-schedule). That's exactly when he would have arrived on the pre-9/11 2.
Some of us don't have the option of transferring twice to save eight minutes. Some of us would be thrilled if our greatest complaint were an extra eight minutes seated on a train.
Actually, I was railfanning and wasn't interested in reaching 180th St. as quickly as possible. If I had, I'd have never used the west side IRT.
So why do you care that the 2 takes eight minutes longer than it did in August?
I think you better check your math. The running time from 241 to Flat (local) is 93 min. minus 12 min. (time from 241-180) 81 min.
I did. I was incorrect. It's 79 minutes for the interval leaving Flatbush Avenue at 8:30-1/2 AM...I also posted it in another part of the thread.
Time for new eyeballs, brain, whatever... :-)
David
12 minutes from 241st to 180th is a very generous assesment. In my travels, I've always allotted 15 minutes for this, and I've usually been right on time.
Some of us are a bit more aggressive.
It is! Better to take the 4 or 5 from the Bronx or Harlem to Brooklyn if you want to get there faster. I'm sure lots of people do that now, making the 4 and 5 even more crowded.
"The 2 running local has got to be pure torture for the Bronx passengers. Just imagine you were a passenger getting on at the beginning in the Bronx, and your destination was Brooklyn! At least before, the run through Manhattan was express!"
Take the 5 and 4!
N Bwy
Even when the 2 ran express, anyone in a rush took the 4/5.
Now the 2 is a local. Anyone in a rush still takes the 4/5.
I personally like the new service on broadway, I think local is much more important that express service
Not when you're from the Bronx. The whole point of the original 4 track design was to speed Bronx riders into midtown & lower Manhattan. Increasing 1/9 service after normal service is restored is a topic worthy of discussion, but service remaining as it is now is definatley not
Probably turnback facilities at 14th Street are the reason why the 2 and not the 3 is running local. I definitely hate the fact that the 2 is running local, but there's really no easy answer to fixing 7th Avenue service until the 1 line tunnel south of Chambers is repaired and ready for service again. When normal service is restored, I would like to see increased service on the 1. Some weekday runs can terminate at 137th Street like they used to in the 80s.
I don't see why they cannot run 24 TPH on the 1/9 during the rush hours and 15 TPH during the midday hours. That would be adequate.
As far as I am aware, there are no operational impediments (absent World Trade Center stuff) to running 24 trains an hour on the #1/#9. The only impediments are the number of cars available (not so much of a concern now with Redbirds in storage, but they won't be there forever) and the number of crews available (which looms as a bigger problem as NYCT heads into financial troubles that it's not being permitted to solve in 2002 via a fare increase).
David
Why isn't the TA seriously considering keeping some of the better Redbirds in service, at least until another car order can be placed?
Crews could, if necessary, be taken off of other lines. Nobody likes a service cut, but right now some lines see much more service per passenger than others.
If this isn't an option, some procedural improvements could be made. For instance, it's common practice (i.e., this happens multiple times nearly every day) for locals that are behind schedule to bypass 50, 66, 79, and 86, and continue as scheduled from there. According to the very numbers you posted, fewer passengers would be impacted[1] if, instead, late locals made all local stops to 137, and then simply turned around -- not to mention that a good deal more time would be saved. (I'm skeptical that bypassing a series of busy local stations saves any time at all, what with the extended dwell times as passengers try to figure out what's going on or how to recover.) In addition, it might make sense to switch an occasional express to the local track to fill in for gaps in local service; while I've seen this done on other lines, I don't think I've ever seen it done on the 1/2/3.
[1]I'm fudging slightly. For one thing, your numbers don't include 168, but I suspect that most of the passengers boarding the 1 there are going north, so they're already counted once in the 137-242 range. For another, I'm ignoring the passengers waiting to board southbound trains; a train that turns at 137 isn't serving passengers north of that point in either direction, while a train that skips a few stops northbound can still make them southbound when the time comes. However, when northbound delays are most common, there are many more northbound than southbound passengers. Even if the passenger counts don't quite work in favor of my argument, they're close, and the dramatic difference in time savings should push this over the edge.
I would argue that the primary point of a four-track line is that it has twice the capacity of a two-track line. The faster service for some is a bonus.
As for the line in question -- I agree that 2 and 3 service should return to their pre-9/11 status, but, really, the 2 local only takes eight minutes longer than the 2 express, and the 3 is still available part of the way. I know it seems like more, but locals aren't as slow as they seem.
It's easy to sit here and throw rocks at MTA over this. MTA's plan makes eminent sense when you consider:
1) There is no service at all now.
2) There is insurance and FEMA money available to get service back, so no additional MTA money need be spent right now. That's very cost-effective.
3) Immediate improvements to be installed now include elevators, so riders are getting something. If these stations are brought up to ADA standards, all riders will benefit - esp. at South Ferry.
4) Redevelopment of the WTC site will bring additional improvements.
Service stinks on the 7th Av line now, compared to before Sept. 11, because of the service outage. Getting some service up soon is a very smart move, and it shows responsiveness to ridership concerns.
I agree with what you say. However, based on the politics, once a partial solution is in place, we will never see a full solution.
Rerouting the 1/9 to the west is not necessary. Rebuilding South Ferry as a 10 car platform terminal is necessary.
I don't agree with your pessimism. If I'm reading this correctly, South Ferry will be part of the first-phase rebuild, and so will an ADA upgrade to the other remaining station. That's pretty good. When additional rebuilding money comes for WTC redevelopment, the South Ferry line may see a third station added.
Now let's see if we can get PATH back ahead of schedule.
If I'm reading this correctly, South Ferry will be part of the first-phase rebuild, and so will an ADA upgrade to the other remaining station.
Ummmm ... disagree ... my take on the Times and Daily News pieces is that the line goes back into service, minus Cortlandt which is entirely removed, plus elevators at S Ferry and Greenwich.
I *hope* you're right, however!
"Ummmm ... disagree ... my take on the Times and Daily News pieces is that the line goes back into service, minus Cortlandt
which is entirely removed, plus elevators at S Ferry and Greenwich."
There's nothing for you to disagree about. Installing elevators substantially complies with ADA. The rest of ADA involves stairs, tactile strips and lighting - well, since they're going to have to do some of that anyway, they're making the stations substantially compliant.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I read your message to mean that conversion of S Ferry from its current 5-car loop to a 10-car terminus was part of the first phase. THAT's the part I was disagreeing with. You're right on about elevators being the bulk of ADA compliance.
I am hoping the new platforms will be part of it, too. I guess it depends on the rate of cash burn.
Is there any reason, at least off peak, that the 1 train can't open all 10 cars, first the front, then the back? I know a new stop marker would have to be purchased and installed 275 feet up the tunnel, but how much would that cost?
I still don't see why it's absolutely impossible for the platform to be extended. (Before anyone suggests otherwise, the 10-car marker for the switch comes before the platform begins. That means there's room for at least a platform and a half.)
Well, at this point, it's been said that it is illegal to use any federal disaster relief funds to build anything other than an exact replica of what was destroyed. Makes no sense to me, but there it is. I was just thinking that while we wait for them to find the money to lengthen the platform, they might be able to swing the cost of a new 10-car marker.
As best as I understand it, 'exact replica' is a poor choice of words. Replacement structures are done according to modern engineering standards, using modern materials, meeting modern health and safety codes. And relocation/realignment is permitted. You don't rebuild a 50 year old disastered-out bridge according to 1952 standards; nor are you required to put the replacement on the same exact alignment. The same applies to 100 year old IRT tunnels and stations. But there is Federal oversight of what the money does eventually get spent on.
A Daily News article, available here:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-04/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-137166.asp
...seems to indicate that some sort of replacement station for Cortlandt Street will depend upon what is built on the WTC site. It also cites MTA "sources" who say that a rebuild/reconfiguration of South Ferry to accommodate full-length trains is being planned...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-04/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-137166.asp
I hope the final plan for a new Cortlandt St. station includes a third track, a la Whitehall St. Since it seems they really are going to redo South Ferry as a straight-on 10-car station (with direct access to the Joralemon tube), the ability to turn back trains earlier ensures the maximum tph.
I doubt it because that would mean that they have to widen the existing tunnel at Cortlandt St. I think they will take the path of less resistance and keep it at 2 tracks.
It will be interesting to see the extension of the SF station. Can they do it w/o too much excavation at street level.
I think they will take the path of less resistance and keep it at 2 tracks.
Agreed ... and my bet is they do it as simply as possible at minimum cost (for the former Cortlandt station area) since that line *could* be reconfigured later as part of a wider-ranging transit complex.
It will be interesting to see the extension of the SF station. Can they do it w/o too much excavation at street level.
The Daily News doesn't say they're doing S Ferry as part of the rebuild. It says they'd "like to" ... which means, as the Times points out, that it'll go into the queue of projects they'd like to do. And probably not much higher up the queue either.
"The Daily News doesn't say they're doing S Ferry as part of the rebuild. It says they'd "like to" ... which means, as the Times
points out, that it'll go into the queue of projects they'd like to do. And probably not much higher up the queue either."
There's more than enough money in the stated budget ($850 million) - which is insurance and FEMA money, not MTA money - to get a South Ferry station reconstruction done. It may or may not be fully done by the time service opens (passengers might alight onto a South Ferry platform with lots of boarded-up areas).
There's more than enough money in the stated budget ($850 million) - which is insurance and FEMA money, not MTA money - to get a South Ferry station reconstruction done. It may or may not be fully done by the time service opens (passengers might alight onto a South Ferry platform with lots of boarded-up areas).
Dunno ... there's hardly any space to spare on the platform.
If they're going to do this, now would be a good time, while the area is torn up for the Whitehall Ferry Terminal reconstruction.
Article by Randy Kennedy in the Times
Point your browsers at (NY Times article):
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/04/nyregion/04SUBW.html
Well, that's a relief to hear!! tony
Just heard on 1010 WINS that TA plans to rebuild the tunnel and have the 1/9 line open by next fall.
I just heard from CNN that it will resume service by Dec. 2002.
Delayed already????
Delayed? It's better than the 3-4 years of the original estimate.
Well, between 1010WINS and CNN I don't know which to choose from since both are very reliable news sources. I think depending on the time that the news was given might be an affect.
But hey, at first we thought they weren't going to finish until a few years from now, and Dec. 2002, is still a reasonable time to open.
I don't know about the "Cortlandt St. WORLD TRADE CENTER" signs, if the T/A is going to use them or throw them out or hold them to use later on for the new WTC.
Any ideas on this?
I doubt they would reuse the old signs in a brand new station. They wouldn't throw them out either, they are probably worth money now. I don't understand why they don't sell any of the old signs. I'm sure people would buy them. And as for WTC, even nonrailfans would buy them.
I suspect some vultures have been there before us.
I hope they save some of those crumpled I-beams, and use them as a design element in the new station: lest we forget.
Please accept my apologies if this has been proposed already and I've missed it.
* Construct 2 crossovers just west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn to allow the G to come from Queens and cross over onto the A/C track. Then the G runs the current C route to 168th in Manhattan.
* Call half of all E trains "C" instead. The new C comes in from Parsons/Archer and doesn't terminate at Canal or Chambers. Instead, it continues through to Euclid Ave just like the current C does.
* Extend the V from 2nd Ave to Church Ave Brooklyn as a local. Run the F as an express on the Culver line.
Benefits:
* 15 or so more tph from Jay St/Boro Hall into Manhattan.
* Culver Line gets its express, plus a local that goes where people want it to, namely Manhattan.
* Direct G service into Manhattan.
* More trains at Essex and at Fulton St for J/M/Z riders who need to head to midtown.
Costs (a bit of construction, more rolling stock, a few more crews) are low relative to the benefits. I don't know how to reallocate rolling stock or crews, but here's essentially what added amounts are needed.
* G trains now have to be 450' or 480' long (not 300') for the whole distance from Queens to Chambers, a slightly longer route than to Smith/9th. The rest of the rolling stock can be recovered from the former C route in Manhattan. Also, no more OPTO.
* C trains have to be full length (I forget whether they're running 8 cars at the moment) from Chambers to Euclid.
* V trains need crews and rolling stock for the extension to Brooklyn.
* Need to construct crossovers west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
* Need to fix the Bergen St tower and make the lower level of Bergen St usable if not pretty.
Inconveniences:
* The Rutgers (and especially Fulton) tunnels operate at nearer to 100% capacity, meaning more careful control is required and higher risk of everything falling to pieces.
* People at the local stations on the Culver line have slightly fewer trains.
* People traveling between stations on the Culver Line and stations on the current G and Fulton lines have a more difficult trip. A larger percentage of this group (which is far less than the Manhattan-bound traffic) will have to cross over to change trains at Jay/Boro Hall.
You are cutting service on the Fulton St. B'lyn line.
How is that? There are 7 C trains per hour from Euclid in the morning rush. That can still be maintained. The A train service would be unchanged.
I was one of many passengers held up in Atlanta by the recent snowstorm. I took advantage of the delay to go joyriding on MARTA, and got in a few rare shots of MARTA in the snow. Also, I'm happy to say I've now ridden the entire system. The snowy scenery was great, if terribly incovenient to millions of people.
Also, I noticed a spur under construction on the north orange line between Arts Center and Lindbergh stations. What is this for? Is it some sort of service siding? I wasn't aware of any new lines being built. If anyone knows what this is, please fill me in.
Mark
The spur your talking about was for a proposed Northwest line to run north along the I-75 corridor linking up cobb county with MARTA. It was built with the original system but alas, Cobb County didn't want MARTA and the extension was never realized. I would bet though in about ten years that spur will be in use as Cobb County is planning two circulator systems around the northern communities of Cumberland and Town Center. They are planning to connect these two segments and tie them into a downtown link. This unused spur would make the most sense but Georgia politics can be notorious for succumbing to the powers that be when it comes to public transportation.
Georgia politics can be notorious for succumbing to the powers that be when it comes to public transportation.
Had heard, and I dunno if it's true, that Atlanta transit planners succumbed to a wish by white suburbs to stay utterly free of rail transit connecting to nonwhite areas despite some utterly bizarre routings that resulted. That would likely be 20+ years ago now.
Any Atlantans care to comment?
I've heard the same thing from an associate who used to work closely with SOU. They were doing some work extending MARTA northwards to some mall or something, and apparently the mall owners opposed because it will bring the "scum downtown" up to their posh shopping strip. I don't know whatever happened with that project but he wasn't working with the MARTA peolpe when the line was fnially built.
This spur looked pretty new, actually. It didn't look like it could be 20 years old.
Mark
there are a couple of issues here.
in order to have marta, a 1% sales tax had to be voted in. it was not approved in some of the northern counties such as cobb and gwinnett. was it not voted in for racial reasons or because the counties did not want the city of atlanta controlling things? i don't know, but given that both counties run their own services to atlanta [bus] suggests that, if it was racial back in the mid seventies, that may not be the case now.
some of the wierd routings are pure and simple politics. for example, there is no station at turner field. instead, the north-south line actually veers away from the stadium to serve a low income housing project and then it veers back to the original route [thus leaving the stadium with no close train service]. it was a political give up to get support for the sales tax referendum.
the east-west line has a spur just west of town that goes for one stop to serve another low income housing area. another political compromise. this shuttle got very little ridership in its early years, so what did marta do to save face? they terminated a number of bus lines there that formerly terminated in downtown. now, folks that want to travel downtown and who live on those bus lines, have to make a change to the train. if they get a shuttle [may not still exist], then they take it one stop and connect to another train. probably double their trip time.
atlanta is not as evolved politically as some other large cities, so it is going through the corruption and mismanagement that other cities have already evolved through. not that the later stages of evolution are any better - they are just not as obvious. having said that, it is still a pretty good place to live regardless of race or income compared to some other big cities.
I never will forget when i lived there ....
( thank god i moved away )
The city of East Point fought against a marta station ...........then ....
Rang it in with a BIG CLEBRATION..big time when it opened back in about 1986 or so when i lived in that humid ass piss bucket!! ( atlanta ) ....lol!!
please tell us how you really feel.
he he he he .................lol !!
in order to have marta, a 1% sales tax had to be voted in. it was not approved in some of the northern counties such as cobb and gwinnett. was it not voted in for racial reasons or because the counties did not want the city of atlanta controlling things? i don't know, but given that both counties run their own services to atlanta [bus] suggests that, if it was racial back in the mid seventies, that may not be the case now.
Until just a few years ago, Cobb County was the most populous county in the United States that had no public transportation whatsoever. That bus service is VERY new.
And yes, race is a big factor.
-- Tim
Actually Cobb has had bus service for over 10 years, you are thinking of Gwinnett, which started 6 express rush hour routes to downtown in October. Local service starts this year. From what I observed from the street, it's quite popular.
I don't think I'm thinking of Gwinnett, but I'll take your word for it.
I may be confusing Cobb and Gwinnett because of all the homophobic crap Cobb tried to pull during the 1990s.
However, I heard a few years ago, i.e. not this year, that one of the suburban counties north of Atlanta had just started its first bus service.
Or am I dreaming? That possibility should NEVER be discounted. ;-)
-- Tim
No bus service was started during the 90s, in 2001, three were started.
I think back in 96, Cobb said they didn't want gay people, which grew out of some gay play being performed. I think they later retracted it (at least I hope so).
that was one county commissioner shooting off his mouth. iirc, the others and the county quickly disassociated themselves from him.
kennesaw is also located in cobb county. that's the city that requires every house to have a working firearm [although it is not enforced].
i see a bunch of people waiting for the gwinett bus each day... I do not understand why there is so much room in the front with no seats... to me it looks like max 30 people could sit... not sure I would want to stand on a bus for 90 mins...
gwinnett & cobb county did not want marta rail....or buses either !!!
THE-BIGOTS !!
The spur underground nearest arts center is/was for the northside drive line. The spur nearer Lindburgh is probably for the Lindburgh yard.
I wish I knew you were in town, we could have railfanned. I had the day off Thursday and I rode out to Avondale for the hell of it. I REALLY wish I had my camera that day, because I was at King Memorial and looking Eastbound, the elevated tracks just disapeared into the snow and the Bankhead train was relaying over there, it looked very cool.
That spur you saw are the future yard leads to new new rail yard that is being built where all that dirt is. I plan on taking pictures of the construction in about a month.
Let me know if you are going to be in town anytime if you want to railfan.
Thanks, Rob. A new yard was my first guess, even though I was hoping for a new line to ride. I'll keep you posted on my Atlanta railfanning plans.
Mark
I was hoping for a new line to ride
Oh how I wish we had something new to ride. There is only so much you can do on 49 miles route miles. It can get boring. I usually just spend my time watching the crowds if I railfan. Probably in about 15 years, you'll see a seprate light rail system and commuter rail to ride.
Where is that light rail line supposed to run?
Mark
Northwest to Cobb county from Arts Center. I believe about 25 miles total length. People actually want this line to be built, so it has been fast tracked. The first leg should open in 2010. 70,000 people a day are projected for it. MARTA was originally going to do this, and the bellmouths are in place for it north of Arts Center, but it never happened.
Will it share the Arts Center station with the heavy lines?
Mark
I'm not sure of its exact alginment, but it will not share platforms or tracks with MARTA. It will be a seprate system. My guess is that it will run above ground perpindicular to the N/S line. Don't know who will operate it yet.
I figured it wouldn't share tracks. I was just wondering if transfering would be a simple matter, like transferring between lines at Five Points.
Mark
Transferring between lines at five points is simple unless you are trying to get from center platform to center platform. That can be tricky unless you know exactly where you are.
There isn't a center platform to center platform way. It's always from center to side. But the center platforms are a little confusing.
Does anyone know if there is a 3D track map of how the X line (N/S to E/W link) is set up within the five points building. Always wondered how they squeeze between the 2 levels in such a short distance.
I wish I knew where one was. I don't have a clue how it is done.
Where is this el?
I got this from a 1991 episode of Seinfeld (the one where George thinks he has a heart attack), it seems like really old stock footage (check out the cars) and the el might not exist anymore.
I could be wrong, but I think that looks like Upper Manhattan. Perhaps it's under the (1) somewhere?
:-) Andrew
The 1 line has a middle track. It looks like a really old el. Perhaps the Third Avenue El in the Bronx? Perhaps it isn't even in NY?
That's a '77-'79 Thunderbird in the first picture. I don't think anything has been demolished since then except the Jamaica El, which it isn't.
What about the Fulton Street section of the Broadway-Jamaica El, does it look like that?
Could it be in another city? I don't know about Chicago, but it couldn't be Philadelphia because there the El has a roadbed. Could it be the Washington St. El in Boston that was closed in 1987?
That's a '77-'79 Thunderbird in the first picture. I don't think anything has been demolished since then except the Jamaica El, which it isn't.
The blue car just to the left of the ambulance in the second picture seems to be early to middle 1970's vintage. It looks like a Buick or Pontiac. Whatever the model, the presence of two older vehicles probably means that the footage was filmed some years before the episode's 1991 air date. That would be consistent with the Boston el, demolished in 1987, that our porcine pal suggested elsewhere on the thread.
The ambulance itself looks to be built on a Ford F-series pickup body, of a style that's been around since the early 1980's.
One more thing - the row of apartment buildings in the first picture, running perpendicular to the street on which the el runs, somehow don't look very New York-ish to me.
The evidence pointing it back to New York is the ambulance looks like a NYC ambulance, before the fire dept took over EMS, when they were still orange. But then again, if it was NY someone on the board would've recognized the el.
Since its now settled as Boston. I guess I was wrong about the ambulance. But the cast better watch out. The last time they were in Massachussets they got locked up for not helping a robbery victim.
If I recall correctly, the city ambulance service in NY was originally the NYPD Emergency Medical Service Division. Then, in 1972 or so (somebody please correct the date) it became NYC EMS.
IIRC the NYPD Emergency Medical Division was for disasters and major emergencies rather than for transporting of ill citizens to hospitals. I seem to remember that each hospital had its own fleet of ambulances.
I could be wrong but perhaps the city took over the function in order to centralize the dispatching and to indirectly subsidize all the hospitals by purchasing & maintaining the ambulances.
I recall seeing photos of NYC ambulances with the NYPD logo and the words Emergency Medical Services Division on their sides.
Last I checked, an NYC ambulance could be driven to Boston.
It does look like upper manhattan, but the missing middle track means it can't be the 1.
My first thought was the IRT New Lots line in Brooklyn.
Could this be the Jamaica El? The show's producers wouldn't necessarily care that the neighborhood seen on camera isn't exactly what the dialogue says it is.
Definitely the Washington St el in Boston. The shot is of the square where the building they used as the hospital for St Elsewhere, another NBC show, was. I believe it was actually a former hotel.
I think we have a winner! Check out these photos of the Orange Line at Thompson Square.
Absolutley no way it's any section of the Jamaica El.
"Absolutley no way it's any section of the Jamaica El"
Not disputing you as I have no clue, but what is it that makes that so obvious? This discussion has gotten me a bit interested in the variety of el structures.
CG
1. No steelwork of this type is found anywhere on the J line. It's a lot more "box-like"
2. The Jamaica line does not run over any street this wide.
I wonder if its the elevated portion of the LIRR on Atlantic Avenue?
I don't think the LIRR El is, or was, open in the middle like that. Besides, the El in the picture looks too flimsy for a line that once handled steam engines and freight.
The structure looks like the part of the Culver Line that you can see from the Belt Parkway.
It isn't the Culver line. It isn't any NYC subway elevated.
I suspect it's not in New York. Note that in the first picture there's what appears to be some sort of park on the right side with globe-style light fixtures on poles. Those don't seem to be NYC Parks issue.
Those definitely aren't standard NYC park luminaires, but it could be a private courtyard. Unfortunately, I don't know my girder styles, but I was thinking Culver between Ave X and West 8 St. Then again, it appears the ambulance has a blue license plate in the rear...
It can't be the Culver El because the surrounding buildings look nothing like what one would find along Shell Road. In addition, the Culver El's cross-supporting beams aren't arched the way they are in the picture.
Now, did Massachussets or Illinois have blue license plates in the 1970s and 1980s?
Now, did Massachussets or Illinois have blue license plates in the 1970s and 1980s?
Massachusetts did/does not. I'm not as sure about Illinois, but I believe the answer's also no. Two things to keep in mind, however:
1) Ambulances may have special plates with different color schemes.
2) I'm not entirely sure that the plate in the second picture actually is blue; it might be a shadow.
Why does that remind me of the elevated LIRR structure along Atlantic Ave? It doesn't appear to look like Chicago-style els, and only Boston has similar elevated stretches.
It does have some similarities to the LIRR el on Atlantic, but it's not the same.
Then it's not in NYC, because I'm totally lost as to what else it could be.
Then it's not in NYC, because I'm totally lost as to what else it could be.
As noted elsewhere in the thread, it's the now-demolished Washington Street el in Boston.
It looks to me that it is either the IRT New Lots line somewhere on Livonia Ave. Or the LIRR elevated tracks on Atlantic Ave.
Considering Seinfeld and friends live on the Upper East Side, I don't think EMS would take them through such a different neighborhood. Wherever this picture was taken.
It looks to me that it is either the IRT New Lots line somewhere on Livonia Ave. Or the LIRR elevated tracks on Atlantic Ave.
Considering Seinfeld and friends live on the Upper East Side, I don't think EMS would take them through such a different neighborhood. Wherever this picture was taken.
I would highly doubt that the show's producers were concerned with any sort of geographical accuracy. They probably used whatever stock footage of an ambulance was most readily available. The fact that an el was visible was probably just happenstance.
Seinfeld lived on the upper west side....W 81st, to be exact
129 West 81st Street apartment 5A to be even more exact.
Wow, you know your sitcoms. I only can remember that Lucy lived on East 68th Street (623?) I know if it was a real address it would be in the East River. Of course Archie lived at 704 Hauser Street, but that's totally fictional.
I know my Seinfeld. But I do remember things when I see them. I j
I know my Seinfeld. But I do remember things when I see them. I only remember that and from a different show: 742 Evergreen Terrace.
What about 1164 Morning Glory Circle.....Bewitched. They lived in a suburb of New York, because Darrin took the train to work. I don't know what area or line though.
I don't think they ever said anything about where the Stephens' lived or worked.
Did not Darrin work on Madison Avenue? He definitely worked in advertising.
The cars in the show had New York plates.
For sure he was in advertising. But from what I remember there weren't that many references to a specific location. Maybe I heard wrong.
Yes he did work on Madison in new York. He took the train many times to work. I don't know which train line it would have been though.
At the time it probably would have been New York Central. Today probably Metro North.
I think it was once stated that they lived in Westport, Connecticut. Darrin definitely worked in NYC.
Darrin was a weenie. Samantha should have turned him into a toad by the second episode.
:-) Andrew
I think Lucy also moved to Westport, CT, because there was a episode that took place at the "Westport" train station (obviosly in Hollywood on a stage).
I think Lucy also moved to Westport, CT, because there was a episode that took place at the "Westport" train station (obviosly in Hollywood on a stage).
Dunno ... the "Connecticut" location seemed rather rural as opposed to suburban. But then again, parts of Westport probably were quite rural in the 1950's.
What exactly did the train station scene involve? It would be rather unlikely for a nightclub owner like Ricky to have commuted by train into Manhattan, given the strange hours a job of that sort would have entailed.
It is when they first moved to Westport. Both the Metzes and the Richardos were bored, so the decided to go see each other, so Lucy and Ricky got to the Westport station just as the Mertzes arrived, and they missed each other - basically passed in the station. So of course Fred was mad that he paid for train tickets for nothing, and the rest is classic Lucy. I don't remember the episode exactly, but it was something like that. It's a while since I'd seen it.
And here's another one I remember:
Bundy
9764 Jeopardy Drive
Bundy as in Married...With Children?
Based on the opening scenes on the show, they lived in the Chicago area.
Rob Petrie lived on Bonnie Meadow Road or Drive in New Rochelle, IIRC.
I wonder if Flanders lives at 740 or 744 Evergreen Terrace???
If this is New York footage, then the only possible location would be Livonia Ave. on the New Lots line.
http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2959&Y=22508&Z=18&W=2
This is the only current or past el that runs past a park. The New Lots line portal off E Pkwy is considerably less likely. I confess that I've NEVER been in these neighborhoods.
But when you look at the Terraserver picture, it does not look right.
It would be nice if we had a clearer picture of the ambulance, at least so we could read the writing. The license plates would also be informative.
> It would be nice if we had a clearer picture of the ambulance, at
> least so we could read the writing. The license plates would also
> be informative.
What difference would this make? These are stills from a TV show. I could put California plates on a New York ambulance and drive it under an el structure. Doesn't mean it was filmed in California!
Newlots El was built to Dual Contract Standards, BOX girder. This is NOT Newlots!
avid
It's unlike any el I've ever seen in NYC, and I cannot think of any el line like it in NYC, given the obvious dating of the picture to a time no earlier to the late 1970's. If it's an NYC structure, my only guess is the LIRR over Atlantic Ave.
Atlantic Avenue is much wider, And its columns are over malls that separate a two-lane inner roadway (used for turning) from the main roads which are on the sides. In addition, there is no space between tracks on the Atlantic Avenue El. We've already settled it on Boston.
I would guess that this is an el section in Boston. Unsure which one and/or location. Not a NYC el. Pre dual contracts els did not have these types of stringers and girders. Post dual contracts rebuilds and new els would have had upgraded features.
Market Frankford El with the concrete roadbed? (Note lack of sunlight from between the ties.
Phil Hom
I can tell you right now that that is NOT the MFL.
Thanks Mike. I never been under the el.
It's the Main Line Elevated in Boston near the Northampton St Station.
This would have been the old Orange Line, right? The one passing nearby the building that represented St. Eligius Hospital on the TV series "St. Elsewhere" in the mid '80s.
It kinda looks like the jerome av el in the bronx, up near Kingsbridge. Or am i totally off?
But this el has no third track, the Jerome El does.
What I can tell you is that the el is NOT in NYC whatsoever. Stephen Bauman's Boston explanation seems to be the most feasible.
I'd have to see those pics again. I still think it's either the IRT somewhere on Livonia or the LIRR elevated on Atlantic.
It`s Definitely not LIRR on Atlantic Ave. The outer roadways have three lanes of traffic, and the columns haven`t had stripes in years.
I thought we already discussed that many times. Why don't people at least look at some responses before making their own?
Looked like trick photography. They can do that kind of stuff in the control room.
How's this for a match?
View of elevated Mainline structure - looking South - along Washington Street and across Blackstone Park.
From the Library of Congress Website
Mystery solved.
That structure sure looks fragile. I'd like to see the rolling stock which used it.
>>> That structure sure looks fragile <<<
Not really fragile but well engineered. The load bearing pillars are directly below the road beds, the girders under the roadbeds spread the load and provide longitudinal stability, while the cross members provide lateral stability. Strength with economy of materials.
Tom
The last generation of rolling stock to use that el is still in service on the MBTA Orange Line.
Check out www.nycsubway.org > American Transit Systems > Boston, Massachusetts > The Orange Line
-- David
Chicago, IL
A pannel appainted by the govornor is moving forward with plans for a new commuter rail line between Athens and Atlanta.
"It's going to happen. It's just a matter of when," said E.H. Culpepper, vice chairman of the Georgia Rail Passenger Authority, a group that works with the Program Management Team on transit issues. "One of the real challenges we have is that, we've been talking about it since '86. ... There is a certain amount of skepticism in people's minds about whether it's gonna happen."
Local residents have been demanding rail alternatives since the mid 1980's and the pannel is currently negioating w/ CSX to lease part of the Abbeville Subdivision, along Georgia Highway 8, which runs roughly parallel to Georgia Route 316.
In connection with an Athens-to-Atlanta line, Georgia Rail Consultants suggest a fee of $10.10 for a one-way trip from Athens to a midtown Atlanta station. The consultants said an Athens-Atlanta commuter rail system would cost $378 million to build and have an annual operating cost of around $16.8 million. From an economic standpoint, Culpepper feels a rail system would help spawn biotechnology business growth along Georgia Highway 316 due to the corridor's location between Athens and Atlanta and proximity to major research institutions like the University of Georgia, Emory University and Georgia Tech.
Why Athens, such a small town. Why not Macon or Columbus, much more metropolitan areas than Athens.
Because NEW YORK, which is in need of a bit of work, can BLOW Georgia as far as funds go ... nice stuff, eh? don't mind me, I'm really honked off about having to pay for rebuilding the former smoking crater of the IRT rather than SHRUB coughing up some cash for US taking a punch in the face for texas ... in order to do it properly. Hell, we don't even get Cortlandt street back, the bastards. meanwhile, let's throw some mad money to ENRON execs. Yeah, that's a recovery ...
My apologies to all who don't understand WHY I'm cranked. Paturkey is going to do "budget school" and presentation of the state budget in a few more days. I have friends in DOB (Division of the Budget) and media and the rest will see the screwjob we're about to get thanks to the morons in DC in a few more days. Bend over, here comes Dick Armey doing something that would have made Jim and Tammy blush ... New York gets to absorb the ENTIRE cost. Meanwhile, the Pentagon's almost finished with ITS repairs ...
Sure hope the terrorists pick another spot next time, they've WON here ...
I think your very right, the right wing nut jobs down south like nothing better than to screw NY. I fully believe you that we will see very little of the money "promised" by Bush. They were backtracking on that promise as soon as it was made. I guess they need to bail out some more bloated corporations. And don't forget the airline bail out (but AMTRACK is "inefficient")
Go figure
Hate to sound like a "liberal" to some misguideds, but I'm DAMN conservative with my cash. Get so little, you GOTTA conserve it! Hell, I live UPSTATE ... I don't mind paying for NYC as long as everybody else does - it's not like it's a damned "welfare check" ... had we had a government, NYC would still have it's 11's on the shore ... but instead the foggy bottom boys handed out a tax cut and cut INS, and all other agencies that could have stopped this since 1993 ... time to reclaim the taxcut.
The PENTAGON'S NEARLY REBUILT. I still don't see no WTC1 or 2 yet. Does anyone else? Hell, can't even catch a subway train but yet Texas is getting all sorts of shiny new fed toys as are 40 other states. Meanwhile we've gotten WHAT? Anybody?
TIHS KCAJ, from what I've heard. That's TERRIBLE that NYC is not getting the money they deserve. How can America's busiest city survive without the proper funding?
-F.
We need to identify certain corporations who (1) gives money to Texas Republicans and (2) does serious business in the NYC area. BOYCOTT!
A nice greasey one in the rear, is about all we've gotten.
The headlines should read "BUSH TO NYC: DROP DEAD".
what did he promise? 40 billion? how many does bloomberg say we're in the hole? a few billion at least?
that raises a whoe other isssue though: people actually be surprised that bloomberg has made light of the fact so quickly that the city is short on cash. it's no surprise to me that ghooliani pushed this under the rug.
I think you have it backwards. NYC pays for upstate NY. By far the most tax revenue in the state of NY is generated in NYC. On the national side NYC gets far less back then it pays in to the natioal government. That is whay I find it so pecular that the federal government is so cheap when funding projects in NYC.
When the federal govenment gives out transportation money it tries to divide the $$$ evenly between competing projects. That is grosly unfair becasue atlatlant pays far few $$ into the gederal gov than NYC
The 16th Amendment is the cause of this. Basically, the federal government gets to steal money made in the states, forcing them to beg for money made locally. I don't have a problem with income taxes, I have a problem with federal agencies collecting them.
New York State pays the lowest per capita in federal tax because state income tax is deductible and you know how high that is in New York, especially combined with the city income tax.
States with low local taxes pay the highest per capita fed tax.
Well, we got a new fire truck - oh wait, that was donated by a governor from another state!
NYC deserves all the money - and more - that it was promised. After all, NYC wasn't attacked because it was NYC, it was attacked for being America!
If this was Texas, we would have plenty of money. Of course, if this was Texas I wouldn't be living here. (No offense to any Texans on the board.) The Texas motto: "Don't mess with Texas!" Congress' motto for NYC: "Yeah, you can mess with New York a bit, it can survive on its own."
Since this is SubTalk, anyone know what the scheduled finish dates are for Airtrain? I know Howard Beach is supposed to be finished this year, and Jamaica the next, does anyone know if it is still on schedule after the attacks? I have check the PA website, and it is vague as to the exact finish dates.
JR
AirTrain lost one day of construction, total.
The Howard Beach leg should be ready by late '02- November or so. The Jamaica leg should be ready by Spring of '03, even if Jamaica Station's total rehab isn't done by then.
Thanks Ron.
That's great! I'm really looking forward to the Jamaica connection. I'm glad to hear that it we only be a matter of months between the two legs being completed.
I only hope that we hear, "Next stop, LaGuardia Airport" soon. It all seems so easy...
I live in Austin, Texas. One thing I can tell you is that Texas sends mostly conservative low tax, low spending Republicans to congress. If you would like to hear an example of that yourself, you can listen to the weekly message from Representative Ron Paul (R, Houston) at
888-322-1414. Ron Paul ran for President in 1988 in the Libertarian Party (of which I belong).
(One thing I can tell you is that Texas sends mostly conservative low tax, low spending Republicans to congress.)
"Low Spending" of a type. Check out the Northeast-Midwest institute to see which states get more out of the federal government than they put in -- they often have a colored map. Then look at the states that went for Bush in 2000. They are just about the SAME MAP! States that elect Republicans get most of the money. It's the same at the NY state level -- areas that vote Democratic pay more in, while those that vote Republican get more out.
What does this mean?
It shows the Republican dillemma. They gained power when "big goverment" was a code word for spending money on Blacks, Latinos, Immigrants, the Poor, and people living in cities. So in the early 1990s, they drastically cut spending on such people. But when some "true believers" kept talking about small government, the elderly, rural people, and the suburbs -- who get most of the money -- got nervous. Bye, bye Newt.
The Democrats have no such dillemma. They are the party of people who rely on government funding, so they are not about to call for less spending on Republicans. And they are not to worried about selling out those who vote for them no matter what, so they do in order to gain votes in places like Chappaqua.
Bring back Newt. Or McGovern. Anything but this.
Four words: The University of Georgia.
-- Tim
Because Sparta is boring and bland.
There's A LOT of traffic along the highway between Athens and Atlanta.
...a one-way trip from Athens to a midtown Atlanta station...
Is the Amtrak station in Atlanta a historical railroad station (one used by major RR's pre-Amtrak, or a Union Station)? If not, what happened to Atlanta's historical station(s) (Southern RR? Seaboard Line? I don't know...)?
I've used Atlanta's Amtrack station a couple of times. Why is it so far from the center of town?
Atlanta's Amtrak station was a purpose-built structure like the Cleveland Waterfront station.
The original Atlanta station was right downtown by Spring St. A platform is still there (or was in SOU days) for boarding of SOU's business specials. The actual Union Station itself was built over with some business development. With that move, Atlanta said good-bye to any comuter or nitercity rail. I have no sympathy for Atlanta on that one.
The actual Union Station itself was built over with some business development.
Typical for Atlanta. I once heard the horrifying statistic that there are only FOUR pre-1900 buildings within the Atlanta city limits. Even given that much of the city was torched in the Civil War ("War of Northern Aggression" to some, as THIS Yankee was astounded to find out!), that's a pathetically low number.
In my own personal hell, Atlanta native John Portman (architect of many hideous anti-urban megastructures including Times Square's own Marriott Marquis) will Suffer Bad Things for a Long Time!
Remember that railroad "gulch" you saw downtown? That's where the station will go. If ever.
Yea I worked under the amtrak station ( freeway construction ) jasper-construction-company, 1983-1987.... saw the base post for the marta sandy springs branch off when it was first built.
But my question was always why there was no DIRECT connection to the north avenue marta rail station you have to catch the 22 bus to transfer to the amtrak station there !!
( made no sense to me )
In case anyone noticed, Amtrak's Silver Palm hit the trailer part of a tractor trailer that had been left on the tracks in Bushnell, Florida. The truck was loaded with $60,000 worth of bread loaves and aside from an explosion of bread all over the scene nobody was really hurt and there was minimal damage. Apparently the driver just walking away from his rig on the tracks w/o telling anyone.
Maybe a few months on bread and water in a cell would be appropriate for this asshole.
Sounds like he was attempting to kill US employee and using his truck as a weapon to disrupt Interstate Commerce.
He probably figured, "I have at yeast a few minutes. I'll just loaf around and wheat here for a bit."
D'you have the unit numbers? I'm interested to see whether these Genesises that are damaged like this (they must go through at least ten a year) ever make their way back to service.
As Mike noted, there was minimal damage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is it true that the driver was related to the late subway surfer from the Bronx?
The 8:45 Am Downeaster train has been so sucessful that Amtrak is adding another car. The train, which can seat about 220 people has been pulling into South Station each day w/ over 60 people standing.
More than 4,300 people took the train during the first five days of operations, which began December 15. That works out to an average of 860 passengers a day. Amtrak estimates that 320,000 people will ride the Downeaster each year, or an average of 877 a day, but ridership is expected to be higher in the summer than the winter.
Some of this may be due to the novelty of the train and the holiday travel period, but then again they could see additional ridership spikes over the summer vacation period and during any winter snowfalls.
Did Amtrak suddenly discover a hidden tunnel through Boston? Maybe the Downeaster continued on the Orange Line, transferring to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing using a previously unknown interlocking to arrive at South Station. Passengers must have been delighted to be able to connect to other Amtrak service without having to get off the train! :O)
I'm joking with you, Mike.
Did Amtrak suddenly discover a hidden tunnel through Boston?
[grin] Good catch, Pete! I missed that one entirely.
I will avoid my usual rant on how stupid it was NOT to include the concrete walls for a North-South Connector in the Big Dig. Just imagine it for yourselves ....
There is a good reason why the N-S rail link isn't included in the big dog. The big dog is overbudget as it is, and it was hard enuff gettnig the $ to build it from the Feds. The silver line was included as part of the big dog Fed package, thanks to the public transit lobby. The N/S rail link would be useful, but is probably another project altogether.
There is a good reason why the N-S rail link isn't included in the big dog. The big dog is overbudget as it is, and it was hard enuff gettnig the $ to build it from the Feds. The silver line was included as part of the big dog Fed package, thanks to the public transit lobby. The N/S rail link would be useful, but is probably another project altogether.
Politically, you're correct. BUT ... any N-S Connector that is built will cost hugely more than if they'd sunk the walls into the ground beneath the lowest level of freeway, which was the plan for awhile. Scraping out the dirt and adding a concrete floor plus utilities would be far, far easier than tunneling from scratch, and god knows the alignments pretty much work.
As it is, it'll take a couple of generations before the trauma of Big Dig fades for Bostonians. I don't expect to see it in my lifetime (and I'm only 42) ....
The Philly commuter tunnel cost only 300 million dollars. Boston needs to get its act together.
The Philly commuter tunnel cost only 300 million dollars. Boston needs to get its act together.
Don't know details of the Philly project. But the Big Dig is a big, big, big project. It includes:
- a third tunnel (the Ted Williams) under the river to Logan
- sinking between 8 and 11 lanes of freeway below ground
- onramps and offramps in both directions for the above
- a brand-new bridge over the Charles w/about 12 lanes
- relocating all the utilities prior to all of the above ...
- ... while all the while keeping the existing elevated road in service
That is a NON-trivial project. Hard to imagine the Philly project being as complex.
I am *not*, however, weighing in at all on whether it should have cost as much as it has ended up doing!
I was just giving a figure for a downtown rail tunnel including one station that was built under buildings, over one subway line and under another as a benchmark for a post big dig project. It did take 6 years tho.
Only six years? When was the last time anything took only six years to build in NYC?
From what I read, the project taking 6 years was a big deal that attracted much public critisism.
Some people don't know when they're well off. Seems like, around here, it takes that long just to do a study.
Whoopsie there.
Seriously, why can't Amtrak include a free MBTA transfer w/ the cost of a through ticket? You just flash your ticket and get buzzed in.
Maybe because of the reason I cited above? About MBTA and Amtrak being competitors? Read the other branches of this thread...
Did Amtrak suddenly discover a hidden tunnel through Boston? Maybe the Downeaster continued on the Orange Line, transferring to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing using a previously unknown interlocking to arrive at South Station. Passengers must have been delighted to be able to connect to other Amtrak service without having to get off the train! :O)
Unfortunately, they made a huge mess when they tried to shove a couple Genesis locomotives through the Boston subway tunnels. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Ooooohhh, so they have had all that construction work and new tunnels in Boston to fix that? :-)
That would be North Station. I understand that a LOT of people are getting on at Haverhill, which is also served by MBTA commuter rail. But The Downeaster is express (typical running time 53 minutes, vs. 62-66 minutes for the MBTA locals).
Fares? Hoo-boy. Look at this!
MBTA round-trip $9
AMTRAK round-trip $13
MBTA 12 ride $49.50
AMTRAK 10 ride $64
MBTA monthly pass $153
AMTRAK monthly pass $155
So for a round-trip or occasional commuter, a few more dollars gets you more comfort and a faster ride. But the monthly pass is only $2 more! Why not use AMTRAK, if the times are convenient? The downside: with only four trips per day, if you miss your Downeaster, you have to pay for the MBTA train. Also, MBTA passes are good for the subway and buses, AMTRAK passes are not.
But I can see that could there could well be enough commuters from Haverhill with a fixed schedule who work near North Station (and don't need to use the subway), for whom The Downeaster is a no-brainer.
Smart move by AMtrak. I never even thought that the fares would be that close. It's a good way to make the State of Massachusetts pay for trains going through Idaho -- which, I think, makes a lot of sense if the "self-sufficient" mandate of Amtrak's is still in effect after 9-11.
This might also explain why State of MA officials are noticably absent from Downeaster's inaugural run. As reported in the South Station Journal, MA officials were less than happy about the Downeaster.
Let the Massholes complain. As a native of Portsmouth NH, I love being able to take the train up to Portland or down to Bahston. (Getting on at Dover NH)
Hey, why is it called the Downeaster? It doesn't go anywhere near down east, which would be more like Florida and Georgia.
- Lyle Goldman
Its clever name is to make Dick Armey and pals think it'll eventually arrive in Houston. That got it FUNDED. :)
This is a 19th century (or earlier) phrase that is still in use. Maine is Down East from Boston because it is downwind.
It's a maritime phrase, no? Billy Joel wrote a song about the "Downeaster Alexa," which IIRC, was the same of a swordfishing boat. Mr. Joel is an advocate for fishermen near his Long Island home, where the profession is slowly dying-out. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, it's a maritime phrase. You sail downwind, which in the case of going from Boston to Maine happens to be eastward.
In todays NY Post on pages on pages 22 and 23 there is an atricle and photos about Mike B. on the #6 line yesterday. The photos are of him exiting the turnstiles at Brooklyn Bridge, on a R142A and waiting for a train at the 77th St station.
I checked the Post online at http://www.nypost.com/ but they only have a quick mention and cropped photo on the lead page.
Hey, if he keeps it up maybe we can invite him to become a SubTalker.
Where are the sills beneath the doors?
According to Building the Independent Subway, only cars 100-144 didn't have sills beneath the doors. I read that the number plates from 190 were slapped onto 100 at some point, and eventually that situation was straightened out.
And NOW you see why I was suspicious, but for OTHER reasons. Been VERY cautious about this, but I was in the battery box of 190 once upon a time. And DAMN if the plate didn't say 100 ... but yeah, now you have an idea of why I had my doubts. STILL ain't sure though. And I doubt there's real answers either.
I thought 100 was resting in the Transit Museum.
It is now but at the time this picture was taken (my guess the late 60's, early 70's) it was still n the road.
As a reference point: the Transit Museum opened in 1976
Right, those first MU's from ACF had some other type of underbody/door stiffener in the underbody. I am unsure either, but if Selkirk was in the Battery area on this MU and it said it was ACF R-1 #100, then it would be safe to assume a re-numbering took place. Replacement cars for those scrapped/damaged did NOT re-use old car numbers, and I believe the original pre-war R numbering ended around 1704.
The R-1/9 cars were notorious for renumberings. Of course the door sills and that lack thereof were the giveaways.
Bill "Newkirk"
Story I got out of some shop foremen back in the old days was that some cars were dogs that were frequently out of service for the same old problems, parts shortages and other problems. Best way in the system back then to up the MBDF was to swap car number plates so as to hide the same car coming back again and again for the same problem.
Hell ... can we REALLY be sure that 1689 is in fact 1689? Heh. Chalk marks on the trucks? :)
If you go to Joe Korman's website, he has a list of the car switches. I forget the reason, but YES, 100 and 190 were switched at one time.
A number of carplates got swapped - and often didn't match the numbers on decals in the cabs. Made for better numbers. That kind of hijinx doesn't happen these days, but that practice always caused me to disrespect "statistical numbers" in the system just in case anyone wondered WHERE my attitude about MBDF's came from ...
>>I forget the reason, but YES, 100 and 190 were switched at one time. <<
And here's the reason as told to me by a reliable source:
By the mid-60's, the R-1s were in terrible shape with a lot of blown out motors. It was decided to take a certain group of R-1's and remove the motors, making them trailers. For some reason, this group swapped numbers with another in the 100s. The good motors were placed in the trucks that had some burn outs, so they would have cars with full power. Depending on how long the train was, there were either one or two trailer cars.
An outside vendor rebuilt the burned out motors and eventually the R-1s regained their lost motors and the trailer program ended. That's when #190 was renumbered back to #100 and vice-versa. My source tells me that he spoke to someone in Jamaica barn (1966) and #190 was in the inspection barn. he told the guy to have an RCI remove the number plate of #190. He told him that the car number was really #100. After the plate was removed, underneath painted on the car body was #100. So #100 in the Transit Museum IS really #100 and not #190.
Note of interest: When the R-1s were new, I am told they were not delivered with number plates, they were added on later. That's why #100 was painted on the car body.
A side note to this:
R-16s on the (GG) !
Because of the shortage of R-1s due to the motor problem, this created an unusual car assignment change. BMT Standards of the 2300 and 2800 series, that were stored on the Sea Beach express tracks awaiting scrapping were removed and returned to service!!
The Standards, with yellow "S"s for scrap were placed on the Broadway Brooklyn Local. The R-16s on the #14 BBL were then shifted to the (GG) to substitute for the shortage of pre-war equipment.
And you think R-32s on the (F) are hot stuff, the above was the wild and woolly days of te TA !!
Bill "Newkirk"
What's next? Will we see Slant R-40s on the "F"?
#3 West End Jeff
And filth in the underpass at 42nd St ... everything old is new again. :)
>>What's next? Will we see Slant R-40s on the "F"?
#3 West End Jeff <<
No, I doubt that wil ever happen.
Bill "Newkirk"
Slant R40's ont he "F"????
hell, when they were brand new, I rode them on the "F".
Thanks for the background ... that's pretty much the same story I had heard as well ... keeping dead cars in the shop for weeks on end wasn't much liked by "upstairs" and I had heard that plate swapping was going on at a furious pace just to show the shops were moving out the work even when they weren't ...
Yet another example of the day I worked in and how good people have it THESE days with a WORKING subway system.
Note of interest: When the R-1s were new, I am told they were not delivered with number plates, they were added on later. That's why #100 was painted on the car body.
Cunningham & DeHart have some pictures of R1s being delivered and it looks like they already have the plates attached. And of course, there's this picture on the (now) N Line in the very first days of service.
NICE SHOT! Sure looked sharp when they was noo ...
Hello, Mr. TMO, and Moo!
Read this whole thing in New York's Lost Transit Legacy.
( Thanks for the segue ) ;-)
Yo HO, guy! I *love* stopping over your place ... from the els to the 2nd Avenue, to the Q cars to the museum to the Myrt ... whenever there's something new over yonder, it's a battery run over yonder. :)
Thanks for reminding me of that all ... and causing me to take it all in once again!
Did R1's actually run on the Sea Beach line when new, or were they merely tested there? If they were just tested, why does this car have BMT rollsigns?
>>Did R1's actually run on the Sea Beach line when new, or were they merely tested there? If they were just tested, why does this car have BMT rollsigns? <<
The new R-1s were indeed tested on the Sea Beach in revenue passennger service before the opening of the IND subway. Sort of a harbinger of what's yet to come.
Paul's shot of #381 was at Track #7 of Stillwell Terminals Sea Beach platform. Those were indeed BMT signs in #381 and her sisters which included BMT side route and destination signs.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why did the BMT allow this? They had to know the IND was being built to put them out of business.
The BMT had to live with the powers-that-be. For example, they needed the Transit Commission's OK to buy experimental equipment like the Zephyr and Green Hornet.
The BMT was supposed to be compensated for the R1 testing but, when it was done, the BMT and City mutually agreed that the BMT got enough use of the R1s in service that it was declared a wash.
I must have wound up with one of those original BMT upper destination curtains spliced to an Eastern Division curtain.
>>Cunningham & DeHart have some pictures of R1s being delivered and it looks like they already have the plates attached. <<
That is hard to see in that photo. Numbers painted on the car bodies could be of the same style font and fool us looking at the photo. But why would #100 have the number painted on the carbody underneath the number plate ? I was told only the R-1s were like that and the R-4s to R-9s had number plates when delivered.
Bill "Newkirk"
But why would #100 have the number painted on the carbody underneath the number plate ?
Well, I'd like to see what the painted number looked like. Anyone seen a pic? Did they look permanent, or something to ID the cars while under construction.? Maybe they originally wanted to have painted number, but decided on the plates instead. Maybe they had painted numbers as a backup since plates could be removed/stolen?
ex-BMT equipment got number plates gradually under city ownership, partly because they were easier to clean while the rest of the car was left dirty. Quite a bit of equipment had painted numbers to the end.
Look at the photo of car 107 onpage 4 of Greller's subway car book!!
Look CLOSE!!! (Get out the Pepsi bottle bottoms....)
There is NO plate for the number. It surely appears to be PAINTED onto the carbody!!!!
>>Look at the photo of car 107 onpage 4 of Greller's subway car book!!
There is NO plate for the number. It surely appears to be PAINTED onto the carbody!!!!
Steve's right !! I don't see anything that would hint to a porcelain enamel plate with mounting bolts.
Bill "Newkirk"
You are right. The nunbers have been applied directly onto the car's body itself. Go to page 29 of the book where it shows a picture of car #100 and it clearly shows that the numbers were applied directly onto the car's body.
#3 West End Jeff
Just checked the book for myself. This is TRUE!!
I've had the book for years....just so used to enamel plates on the R-type cars, never even thought about painted numbers!!
I wonder if they put the enameled number plates in place, because the numbers that were painted directly onto the cars began to wear off.
#3 West End Jeff
Just wondering if there was a BMT/IND track connection back in those days, or was it a carfloat deal from 36th Street Brooklyn to 207th Street Manhattan.
They were turned over to the BMT Freight Dept. at CI yard and delivered to 38th Street freight yard at 2 ave. for return to City on barges.
Ahh, it was a carfloat!
Yes, the R1s knew what the Redbirds have forgotten--subway cars need a barge to float! ;-)
Couldn't they have saved a lot of effort and simply put the standards on the GG line, or was Jamaica incapable of supporting them?
>>Couldn't they have saved a lot of effort and simply put the standards on the GG line, or was Jamaica incapable of supporting them? <<
You sort of answered you own question !!
The 2800 series BMT Standards had rollsigns for the (GG) Crosstown Line, I saw a slide of this. I don't know when those signs were put in there, was it for the mid-60s car shortage of when the 60th St. tube opened, not sure of that. There may be a possibility that Jamaica Barn wasn't able to maintain the Standards since this was on short notice. Also the Standards, not speed demons, were probably judged to operate on their familiar home turf as opposed to IND Queens Blvd Line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, that's the same story about 100/190 I heard, and I do consider the source reliable.
I remember the R16's on the GG -- in fact, I photographed one at Smith/9th Street. I think it's in the R16 photos at NY Subway Resources web site.
In the book by James Clifford Greller "New York City Subway Cars" they show a picture of car #100 without the sills as it would have been originally. I think that car #190 in the picture that you're showing is likely to be car #100 if they switched the number plates back to the original cars.
#3 West End Jeff
This little "plate dance" HAS turned interesting though, no? That was the whole reason I brought it up, to have some fun and shake any lingering doubts. The TA was an absolute *mess* back around the turn of 1970. :)
I think that you're right that this little number plate dance has turned interesting.
#3 West End Jeff
WOW !! look at them enjoying the railfan window !! ....lol!!
Or more specifically, 904 subway cars.
I do.... only 1 please!
....as long as SubwayAl doesn't
get to the rollsigns, first!!
Any TA work is EXCELLENT work....even stripping out Redbirds. CI Peter
Personally, i like the idea of buying an old subway car real cheap, and mount it on a bus chassis. then i would have a big, unique bus with the subway spirit livin on.
Thousands of years from now, this world will come to an end. This planet will be visited by UFOs that will view the vast terrain what will be dried out oceans. They'll wonder what the hell is all those rectangular boxes scattered all over the place !!
No..............heypaul didn't tell me this !
Bill "Newkirk"
Highly unlikely that thousands of years from now that seperating rust out carbodies of Rotboids could be recognized by the remains...a few months in the ocean of salty water should finish off the openings seen when seats are lifted. I frankly don't understand the '207th reefing project' as scrap steel sans harmful materiels should go straight to the smelter. CI Peter
Here are the MDBF Numbers for December. The only numbers I will give are the 6 that follow. I will not give the 2nd highest, the 3rd or the lowest so please do not ask.
Highest IRT Car Class - R-62 242,069 Miles
Highest IRT Shop - Jerome 136,707 miles
Highest IRT Line - #4 136,687 miles
Highest B division car class - R-68 268,981 miles
Highest B division Shop - Concourse 175,937 Miles
Highest B division line - Q 513,474 miles
Congrats - The Concourse does it again !!!!
Nice job, dude, keep up the good work with those hippos.
Congratulations on a very fine job - especially since you turned the subway's "dumb blonde" (the R-68, which is very nice-looking subway car) into an outstanding performer.
Keep up the good work. 2002 will be even better.
Is that the Q circle or the Q diamond or both together? Whatever, the R68 (again) comes in first for reliability in the B division. And it isn't even all your doing (I'm assuming that the Qs are not shopped at Concourse). Oh well, my Brightliners did not even get honorable mention. But they are survivors!
For the Q it's both circle and diamond.
"And it isn't even all your doing (I'm assuming that the Qs are not shopped at Concourse)."
No! There are 209 R-68s at Coney Island & they share the credit for the R-68s excellent performance. In fact, their R-68s did somewhat better than the Concourse R-68s. They don't, however, share the credit for the shop withthe highest MDBF.
If past performance is any indication, I suppose the slants are also running well despite the fact they are falling apart structurally. Despite this, I would bet the house that the Brighton riders are still bitching and moaning to the TA in their cards & letters aout the "lousy" service they receive.
Only in NY. Do you suppose that US Air gets complaints when they switch plane models on a specific route?
(Only in NY. Do you suppose that US Air gets complaints when they switch plane models on a specific route?)
Maybe not, but I must admit I'm not pleased about getting an R32 rather than R46 on the old F train in Brooklyn. I think the R46 is a nicer car, and if you're stuck with an old car, it might as well be a nice old car.
It was a very nice car until GOH got hold of it.
Only in NY. Do you suppose that US Air gets complaints when they switch plane models on a specific route?
Ask that question on airliners.net and you'd be surprised at the answers ...
They might. I'm not a frequent flier, but if I was and the airline took off a nice plane with (comparatively) decent legroom and substituted an older aircraft with tighter seating I'd raise a fuss. Fortunately, the only time I can recall having equipment switched from the scheduled type on a flight I was on it was in favor of a significantly larger aircraft (L-1011 replacing a 727 on a flight from Atlanta to Raleigh).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, yes! When I was a consultant for the USAirways Shuttle (I was their meteorologist), and the airline changed from the vernerable 727 to the new Airbus A-320 with lots more comfort and amenities, many "oldtimers" complained about "their" 727 being phased out and replaced with the "new tech that won't work."
So it can happen anywhere!
Ahhh, A320, fly-by-wire and they did away with yolks and use joystick type to control.
That's exactly how I feel on the 2!
Enjoy your new 'smooth ride' and hope that there aren't any 'door indication failures' to hang it up. CI Peter
Only in NY. Do you suppose that US Air gets complaints when they switch plane models on a specific route?
Would you not agree that when there are different comfort differences between the models the passengers might have a legitimate complaint? For example, if 10-car R32's are substituted for 8-car R46's the number of seats per train drops from 600 to 480. That's almost like a 20% cut in service.
It may well be a 20% cut in SEATS (nominally, more in practice since people tend to slop over into adjacent seats on R-32s, which have 50-not 48-seats a car), but not in service. I have no doubt that people would complain (they DID complain on the Brighton express when R-40s replaced R-68s). However, the trains (10 cars x 60 feet vs. 8 cars x 75 feet) have roughly the same nominal capacity, and the train of 60-footers has a greater capacity in practice because of the seating layout, and it loads and unloads faster because it has more doors.
David
It may well be a 20% cut in SEATS (nominally, more in practice since people tend to slop over into adjacent seats on R-32s, which have 50-not 48-seats a car), but not in service.
I've had occasion to look up the seating capacity of both the R68A's and the R32's in the National Transportation Database (1999). The data is supplied by NYCT. The seating capacity for the R32's is given as 44; the seating capacity for the R68A's is given as 72. These numbers disagree with MTA published data that cites: "NYCT Division of Operations Planning/Facilities, Subway Vehicle Passenger Capacities", December 18, 1992 which gives: 50 for 60 foot cars and 70 or 74 for the 75 footers.
The difference in the R32's represents 1 less person on the long benches between the doors. Perhaps there was a revised girth factor between 1992 and 1999. :-)
I don't care what some database says. I count 50 seats on an R-32 and on an R-38, as follows:
cab-2 seats-door-7 seats-door-7 seats-door-7 seats-door-2 seats=25 seats (on each side of the car)
Now, the 7-seaters are usually taken up by 5-6 people, but it doesn't mean they're not 7-seaters.
David
Fat butts pay only one fare. Moulded seats rule. CI Peter
I think it's more an issue of familiarity than it is comfort. I don't think the average subway rider has any concept of which car has more seats or more standing room or whether trains of 60' cars have shorter dwell times. In general, people seem to resist change.
When the equipment on the Q was changed from R-68A to the R-40S you could hear the howls from the Brighton Beach contingent all the way to midtown manhattan. It didn't matter that the MDBF ob the Q and the B went up noticably. Their trains were changed.
I don't think the average subway rider has any concept of which car has more seats or more standing room or whether trains of 60' cars have shorter dwell times.
I think the average subway rider has a very clear concept of whether or not he has a seat and what are his chances of getting one. The passengers' misunderstanding was in equating the reduced chances of getting a seat with lower service levels. The notion that NYCT would purposely design cars with fewer seats and no overall increase in capacity escaped their limited reasoning. It still escapes mine.
When the equipment on the Q was changed from R-68A to the R-40S you could hear the howls from the Brighton Beach contingent all the way to midtown manhattan. It didn't matter that the MDBF ob the Q and the B went up noticably.
Are you stating that the R-40S' have a higher MDBF than the R-68A's? If not, then how would substituting some less reliable R-40S for the more reliable R-68A's result in an increased MDBF for the combined fleet?
Are you stating that the R-40S' have a higher MDBF than the R-68A's? If not, then how would substituting some less reliable R-40S for the more reliable R-68A's result in an increased MDBF for the combined fleet?
YES! When the R-40s were moved from a full-time line (B) to a part time line (Q) they were layed up at night and on weekends. They received additional maintenance and began to perform better. Incidently, the R-68As MDBF was approximately 40% higher than the R-40s. Both were above the fleet average.
YES! When the R-40s were moved from a full-time line (B) to a part time line (Q) they were layed up at night and on weekends. They received additional maintenance and began to perform better. Incidently, the R-68As MDBF was approximately 40% higher than the R-40s. Both were above the fleet average.
I'm sorry, I don't follow the math. You stated in your first post that the R-68's had the top MDBF figures. Suppose the Q's ran a distance D, then the number of expected failures, N, would be given by:
N = D/MDBF.
I'm assuming that after the substitution the combined fleet went the same distance as before. In calculating the number of failures for the combined fleet, assume that 0 < x < 1 is the fraction of R-68's used. Then the number of failures for the R-68's would be:
N68 = xD/MDBF
The number of failures for the R-40's would be:
N40 = (1-x)D/(MDBF/1.4) = 1.4(1-x)D/MDBF
Your statement was that: N > N68 + N40
This implies that:
D/MDBF > xD/MDBF + 1.4(1-x)D/MDBF
D/MDBF > [1.4 - .4x]D/MDBF
1 > 1.4 - .4x
x > 1
which contradicts the original assumption.
Are you stating that the R-40S' have a higher MDBF than the R-68A's? - SB
YES!...Incidently, the R-68As MDBF was approximately 40% higher than the R-40s. - TD
Without resorting to math, a contradiction appears to be evident, unless we are misunderstanding the statements.
Without resorting to the math, let me say that my statement was completely misunderstood. Likely my lack of clarity because I did not want to give the actual MDBF numbers for either fleet.
What I had intended to relate was what has happened since the R-40s were moved to the Q and the R-68As were moved to the B. In fact, the performance of the R-68A (which was double that of the Slants, is now about 40% higher despite the fact that the R-68As have remained fairly constant. The other fact is that the Slants now exceed the fleet MDBF.
MDBF gonna get better on A division. OnTheJuice, CI Peter
R U gonna use D cells on the 142s?
Keep up the good work, TD! And the Q will always come in first for me.
I noticed that only 88% of the R-68 fleet is actually used during peak times on any given day, despite the reliabliltiy figures. Even the lowly R42 sports a higher a utilization percentage.
These figures are worse for the Div A. Utilization for the R-62's is 77%, whereas utilization for the R-33's is 82%.
I saw a sign in a booth saying 'Compute problems, tokens only'. Does this mean that people would have to buy a token, and if they wanted to transfer to a bus they would have to pay again? I know its not proper, but is it legal?
What would happen if there was a computer failure effecting the turnstiles? Would people be 1 - Be forced to buy tokens, 2 - Told to go to a different station, 3 - Just be let in?, 4 - Something else?
If the booth computer is down for servicing or failure then all we can sell is tokens unless our station has no MVMs. If we have no MVMs then we will carry pre-encoded cards for $6, $215, $17 and $63.
As far as bus transfers- sorry!
If the turnstiles do not take cards then we could check the card. If it is a started unlimited we can allow entey. Otherwise tokens only and we will call for a maintainer via calling Station Command. Of course, it may take a whiel for the maintainer to show. If the tunrstiles fail completely then we use the Non Revenue Fare Box (NRFB) wehich is the tall black box near the turnstiles and hit the EBCS and face a booth audit. If the NRFB is jammed then again we hit the EBCS and then hand collect by asking the customer to give us the token and buzz them in. In either case, police will be sent by Stations to make sure people pay.
Of course, if they have no cash we can suggest they go to another station. (Note- if a station has more than one booth and turnstiles/computer are out at the main booth they may or may not be out at other booths in the station depending on whether the Station Controller (SC) is running. If the SC is down then the entire station is tokens only.) If the SC is running then the other booth(s0 if open will be in service and sell cards and tokens.
This LARCENY by the MTA is why the token should be eliminated, apparently it only exists to facilitate the MTA's ability to steal money from passengers.
It is not Larceny ! Let's say you go to the department store to buy some Pig videos and their phones lines are down so you cant charge your videos. The store will ask for cash or no sale. WHy is Transit different. If we use the NRFB or if we hand collect either way it is a mandatory booth audit. We do not have keys to the NRFB and neither does supervision. Only Revenue has keys to the NRFB.
Hand collect is an absolute last resort and must be specifically approved from Jay Street. If Police are present we give them a revenue bag if the NRFB is jammed and the cops hand collect and give us the tokens to count as fares. Hand collect is not fun but a nightmare.
The difference is that the video store doesn't give a 52% discount to those paying by credit card, not making it available to anyone when the credit card reader is down.
The current subway fare, for those willing to buy in bulk, is $1.37 for a ride followed by a transfer. I am not willing to pay $1.50 for the initial ride, let alone an additional $1.37 for the transfer to the bus. Call the cops if you like -- I'm paying the proper fare and entering the system.
I would think that most regular subway riders would use an unlimited Metrocard, rendering most of these calculations academic. The more rides taken, the cheaper each one becomes.
Right, and with the unlimited if it is already started we can check that it is valid and buzz you in.
A regular rider would be twice a day, every weekday for a month.
That comes out to $60.00. In order to make an unlimited card a value, one has to expect to ride at least three more times.
I'd be surprised if most people use unlimited cards. They're priced to be slightly more expensive than the typical usage, if paid-per-ride, for their effective periods.
If I commuted by subway or bus every weekday, I'd certainly use 30-day passes, since I also sometimes (okay, often) engage in recreational riding. But I typically only ride a few times a week, if that. It's pay-per-rides for me, with an occasional Fun Pass (I once used a 7-day pass). I do always compute in advance which option is the cheapest -- of course, once in a while my plans will change and (say) I'll pay for three individual rides in a day, wasting a dime.
>>> The current subway fare, for those willing to buy in bulk, is $1.37 for a ride followed by a transfer. I am not willing to pay $1.50 for the initial ride, let alone an additional $1.37 for the transfer to the bus. <<<
A slight correction. The current fare is $1.50. Those who buy in bulk get a discount, which amounts to one free ride for each ten paid rides. At certain times the discount is not available due to system malfunctions. At certain times, due to accidents or power failure, the whole system is unavailable at any price. The fact that you bought a Metrocard does not guarantee you travel at the discounted price at any time you want, just as it does not guarantee you any transportation at all while service is suspended.
Tom
The current fare is approximately $1.37 for those willing to buy/recharge MetroCards with at least $15 at a time. Since this fare arrangement went into effect, I paid $1.50 for a ride once, and that was just to see what the new bus transfers looked like.
If the subway system is down, obviously it's not going to take me anywhere, but neither is it going to charge me. If it's up, then I'll pay the proper fare ($1.37 by MetroCard, since my latest MetroCard purchase was in the amount of $15) and go wherever I'm going.
When I bought my MetroCard, the implied contract was that it was valid for fares (and free transfers, where and when available) at all times. With my MetroCard, I am entitled to ride and the TA is entitled to deduct the appropriate fare from the card. If the MetroCard system goes down, that's not my problem -- I'm still entitled to ride even if the TA is temporarily not equipped to deduct the fare from my card. If I'm asked nicely and I'm carrying cash (I normally don't use cash, so I sometimes forget to bring any), I'll pay $1.37 in cash, although I wouldn't be so accomodating if I had no plans to refill my MetroCard or buy another one later (say, if I were a tourist or a resident about to move out of the city permanently) -- that is, unless I'll be using the transfer, in which case I'll pay the $1.37 when I dip my card on the bus. I'm meeting my end of the deal.
>>> The current fare is approximately $1.37 for those willing to buy/recharge MetroCards with at least $15 at a time. <<<
Repeating it will not make it true. The fare is $1.50. When you buy ten fares, one free ride is given to you as a bonus. I assume this is done by putting $16.50 credit on the card when you pay $15.00. If you were allowed to pay $1.37 in cash when the computer was down, and therefore not deducting rides from the card, instead of getting 11 rides for $15.00, you would be receiving 12 rides for $16.37. Do you believe that if you put $16.37 on a Metrocard you would receive 12 rides? You would not. You would get 11 rides and $1.37 credit toward future rides. If you go to refill the card with the $1.37 credit on it by adding $13.63 to make a total of $15.00, you will get only 10 rides. Although purchasing $15.00 of rides at a time to get a bonus ride free reduces the effective cost of the rides to you, it does not reduce the price of a ride.
>>> When I bought my MetroCard, the implied contract was that it was valid for fares (and free transfers, where and when available) at all times. With my MetroCard, I am entitled to ride and the TA is entitled to deduct the appropriate fare from the card. If the MetroCard system goes down, that's not my problem -- I'm still entitled to ride even if the TA is temporarily not equipped to deduct the fare from my card <<<
You are willing to accept the fact that if the electricity fails, or a tunnel is flooded the TA is not required to immediately transport you to your destination even though your contract was to be able to ride there by swiping your MetroCard at a station and getting on a train. The TA is only required to take all reasonable means to keep the trains running. By the same reasoning, when a computer failure makes it impossible to read your MetroCard, there is no requirement that you be allowed into system because you have a MetroCard. The card is nothing but a debit card, indicating that you have a money balance which may be used instead of cash for paying the fare. If a bank's ATM computer system goes down, you cannot withdraw (what you think is) your own money from the ATM, even though you have a card that entitles you to do so 24 hours a day. The failure of the MetroCard computer system is no different.
Tom
> Do you believe that if you put $16.37 on a Metrocard you would receive 12 rides?
A 10% credit applies for any amount greater than or equal to $15.00 added to a MetroCard. $16.37 plus 10% is $18.007, a bit more than 12 fares.
>>> A 10% credit applies for any amount greater than or equal to $15.00 <<<
That is interesting, I thought the excess was provided in blocks of $15.00, but regardless, since they add the amount to the balance on the card, it supports the premise that the fare remains $1.50, and the TA is providing a bonus for purchasing in advance (giving them the use of your money sooner) rather than lowering the fare per ride.
Tom
No, it's just a matter of bookkeeping. The effect would be identical if a $15 MetroCard came with a balance of $15.00, with $1.37 (or so) deducted per ride. MetroCards with smaller initial balances would be subject to a (roughly) 9.5% service charge, deducted upon purchase. (I think the numbers work out. If not, you get my gist.)
>>> The effect would be identical if a $15 MetroCard came with a balance of $15.00, with $1.37 (or so) deducted per ride. <<<
This is what I posted earlier. With a MetroCard your effective cost of a ride is $1.37. You have used the biggest little word in the English language, "IF". IF the MetroCard had $15.00 added and $1.37 deducted for each ride the price per ride would be $1.37. When the Card has $16.50 added for $15.00 paid, the price per ride remains $1.50. There is a real difference between the concepts of "price" and "effective cost."
Tom
The only distinction between the two scenarios I presented is what is displayed on the MetroCard readout screens. In either case, I pay $15.00 and get a card valid for 11 rides or I pay $13.50 and get a card valid for 9 rides. Is this the "real difference between the concepts of 'price' and 'effective cost'" that you allude to?
>>> Is this the "real difference between the concepts of 'price' and 'effective cost'" <<<
To reiterate what was said earlier in the thread, you stated that if you purchased a MetroCard for $15.00, the price per ride was $1.37, and therefore if computers were down the TA should allow you to ride for a cash fare of $1.37. I stated that even with your $15.00 MetroCard, the price remains $1.50 per ride, only your effective cost when using the MetroCard has been reduced to $1.37, and there is a difference between "price" and "effective cost."
Price is the amount of money given or set as consideration for the sale of a specified thing. In this case the TA sets the price at $1.50 per ride. When they give you $16.50 credit for your $15.00 payment, they are giving you the extra value for the use of your money before they provide the service. Their cost to provide that extra ride is very low, since most of their costs are fixed, and they are getting money cheaper than they can borrow it. (They also get "breakage," i.e. some percent of the total rides are never used.)
Cost is the outlay or expenditure made to achieve an object. If you purchased a MetroCard for $15.00 and you and 15 of your immediate friends (whom you are treating) used it to go on a fan trip, right away, your effective cost would be $15.00 divided by 16 or approximately $1.37 for each ride. OTOH if you purchase your $15.00 MetroCard and go on a one year vacation to Spain, and upon your return you take your friends on that same fan trip using the MetroCard, the effective cost would be higher. The reason is that you would have lost the interest you would have earned on the $15.00 during the year. If it could have been invested at 10% per annum, the return would have been $1.50, so this time your effective cost of the 16 rides would be $1.50 each. If you purchase a $15.00 MetroCard, and drop it off the platform of an el station on your first trip, your effective cost of that ride is $15.00.
That is using extremes to illustrate the mean. When you buy a MetroCard you probably do not wait a whole year to use it, and you probably don't have 10% per annum investments waiting for each dollar, but each day the card has a balance on it adds to the effective cost of using it. It is not something to worry about since it is a de minimis amount, but it illustrates the difference between price (the TA's charge for a ride) and effective cost (what you pay).
Tom
Right! As I have informed customers-- When you pay your fare all you get is permission to use the system to get from point A to Point B.
There is no guarantee a train will arrive at a specified time , no guarantee you will get a seat or a specific type of train (ie Slant, R142, etc.) and no guarantee toy will make a certain connection. We do give block tickets if all service from our station is suspended or G.O. tickets if a shuttle bus is needed.
I then follow up with " I am sorry you are inconvenienced.I know you are frustrated. I too am late for my next stop. I know gow you feel."
American Pig states that the continued use of the token is LARCENY.
Subway Buff responds "It is not Larceny ! Let's say you go to the department store to buy some Pig videos"
Uh..oh ! Could this be the first SubTalk war of 2002 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I for one got a chuckle out of it.
I'll bet Pigs was surprised at the reply, maybe too surprised to answer ?
Mr rt__:^)
Not shocked at all. David Greengerber mentioned everything that I would have had I posted, making my own post uneccessary.
I wonder who he is.
I'm glad to see that "American Pig" is at it again. The new year is just a week old and one thing has not changed. "American Pig" loves to
argue over just about anything. Maybe if were lucky his MetroCard won't work in the turnstile.
#3 West End Jeff
I prefer my way of doing things to your incessant tendency to agree.
Of course, if you have a strong opinion, like your crazy plan of reinstating divisions and using numbers for all lines, you'll argue just the same.
I guess that argument is only wrong when it isn't yours, is it?
>> Let's say you go to the department store to buy some Pig videos and their phones lines are down so you cant charge your videos. The store will ask for cash or no sale. <<
If it were my store in this day and age, I'd sooner close than embarass customers by not accepting a key form of payment. Cash and tokens just don't cut it any more. I was in a store once that had its charge card reader out, and it was frustrating to watch customers be refused sale. Better to close altogether than to do that to customers-- and all the more important to make sure the computers are fail-safe and have backups. For better or for worse, the plastic card is it today.
Your point is valid but we cannot decide on our own. Many times there are supervisors and managers in hiding and when we flub up they come out of the woodwork and correct us. If we are caught we face discipline, ANy such decision has to come from supervision and in some cases even supervision has to call Jay Street for a decision.
Transit is run like the military- the privates must follow the orders of their superiors or face court-martial!
So that's why sometimes when I'm at work I feel like I'm a prisioner!
Right on! Remember we are the privates. We diont get paid to think but to blindly follow orders unless the orders are dangerous. If a supervisor tells you to sweep the stairs you sweep and then grieve. If a supervisor tells you to polish the third rail ask for the direction in writing and then call Stations and ask for the Level II. If still instructed to go ahead tell them you refuse as a safety issue and invoke 1.9 and close the job site down until bigwigs at TWU an TA meet.
I would tell that supervisor that I didn't know how to do that. Would be be kind enough to show me how to polish the 3rd rail ?
Mr rt__:^)
>>>Transit is run like the military- the privates must follow the orders of their superiors or face court-martial!<<<
I always thought it was run more like a grade school, they treat their employees like children. The military respects it's people. But, to each his own.
Peace,
ANDEE
No it's run like a mushroom farm ... you keep them in the dark & feed them shit.
hahaha...Now that's rich
Peace,
ANDEE
If a credit card is not accepted it is not always the fault of the store. During peak shopping periods there have been times when the problems occur at the credit card companies (ie, slow phone lines, network problems etc). In those cases I would not expect a store to close because it. Believe it or not, CASH was still a valid form of currency. Most folks carry enough cash to cover their daily shopping needs.
The last time I was in a store that had credit card problems was Christmas of 2000 - I was in the NYC Bloomingdales and they had problems processing Visa cards. The customer had the option of using 1 - other forms of credit, 2 - Cash, or 3 - not making the purchase.
Having worked in several retail establishments over the past few years, I must say that I've never seen a customer refused sale because our card reader was down. Speaking from experience (this may not be true elsewhere, but is what I've seen), each retailer has access to a toll-free number to verify credit cards before taking an imprint of the card. I've never had the phone lines go down (at least not all of them) so I'm not sure what would be done then.
Remember those big sliding card-imprint roller machines (KaCHA!)? Most merchants still have one laying around, expressly for this purpose. I believe it may even be a requirement of the retailer's merchant agreement with the credit card company.
I know this may not apply to the MetroCard system, but as it applies to retail credit cards, that's how it works. Anyone who has their sale denied because "the card reader's down" is probably the victim of the retailer's laziness, not the failure of the system.
Banks are notorious these days for "too bad - the computer's down" ... what may have passed for service among merchants who live by every individual sale does not apply to political subdivisions or apparently banks either. I sure wouldn't blame the hourlies for the way things are done. But since "transit" *is* a political subdivision, there's always the option of leaving footprints on foreheads and getting a politico's office involved in a nice sausage-pressing ... policies can be changed, but it's a trickle-down kinda thing ... all it takes is getting a politico to whiz ...
Can we maybe lure Bill Gates into a dark alley and issue some backseat justice? :)
Remember those big sliding card-imprint roller machines (KaCHA!)? Most merchants still have one laying around, expressly for this purpose. I believe it may even be a requirement of the retailer's merchant agreement with the credit card company.
It used to be, but by 1999 was no longer, at least for Visa and MasterCard (the only ones we took at the late great Hobby Shop in Raleigh, North Carolina). Our imprinter broke that year and when we called to get a replacement we were told we didn't need one any more - all we needed to do was write our merchant number and the customer's card number on the appropriate paper form. I don't recall ever using it except for tracking credits, though, since we weren't set up to process them live - had to enter them batch mode at the end of the day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You learn something new every day, I suppose. Though it made for a fun day when I was working at RadioShack and our server went down.. back to the stone age of looking up prices in books and figuring out tax by battery-operated calculator. Even with all the mayhem, we still took charge cards. Didn't even bother phoning them in. This is off-topic enough, so I'll stop there.
--
Ian Penovich
...back to the stone age of looking up prices in books and figuring out tax by battery-operated calculator.
Well, our store was sufficiently modern that we either had the price marked on everything or we knew what it was, our cash register had a crank on the side, and our primary calculator was called a brain (its backup was paper and pencil)... the only thing electronic in the store was the credit card swiper and the power supplies. We never did get into DCC either. RIP The Hobby Shop, 1946-2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I've never seen a customer refused sale because our card reader was down. <<<
I've been a couple of super markets where they could not even make cash sales when their computers went down.
Tom
On 9/11, I had to pay cash at a hardware store. If unusual circumstances is ever an excuse, it was then. (ObSubway: The hardware store is directly above 96 on the 1/2/3 -- well, it was the 1/2/3/9 that morning, and at the time there was no subway service anywhere in the city.) That was nothing compared to my attempts to buy milk -- I wasn't trying to hoard, but apparently everyone else was.
OK-But what if none of the turnstiles work and you can't do anything with metrocards at the booth.
Then we hit the alarm button and start to use the non Revenue Fare Box (NRFB) which is the black box near the service gate. If that is jammed, we again hit the EBCS and we get permission to hand collect which is a customer gives us the token and we buzz them in.
We dont like either since it is a mandatory booth audit and duie to non-registered fares the money wont match and we have to explain why ( of course, the turnstiles are out).
All the MVM's at St.George weren';t accepting bills yesterday.
thas because they either ran out of change or the bill boxes were full. Step into the 21th century and use your credit card already. My credit card gives me reward points further reducing the cost of each trip
Can anyone provide a listing of each line's super?
Thanks.
If you go to www.straphangers.com there is a list there of the Supt's who take care of all the subway lines.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Futher on Line Supt's. After going to www.straphangers.com click on any of the lines's like the B or #4 line there is the list of Supt lines.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Those lists are very outdated...
-Harry
You caught some of the errors too, I guess.
There is at least one glaring error in the list of Line Superintendents. The person listed as the A line superintendent, is actually the General Supt. of District #5 E, F, G, R & V lines.
David Spivey now works at control as the Nigh Supt. as well.
-Harry
Night- not nigh
Either way - unless there was a big raise involved, I would have thought he was smarter than that. Who moved into his spot, Sutton?
I don't know offhand. I met him once but forgot his name...
-Harry
There IRT list only two are currect the No.1+4 Lines. Supt they have listed for the No.6 Line is Gen. Supt of District 2 (4,5,6 Lines.
Has anyone seen the January SEPTA transpass yet? It has a really good picture of four M-4 trains at the yard, with a whole fleet of old almond joys in the background. Wonderful picture.
Mark
You have one? Can you scan it?
Sure I can do that. I might not get to it until next week, though.
Mark
Ok. That would be nice!
Why hasn't the N/W line been extended with tail tracks to increase TPH into the terminal? As it is, trains have to crawl through the timers so they don't fly though the end stop, and this always slows down the arrival & departures.
If trains could arrive at a normal station speed, the turnaround time for each train would be decreased, and more TPH in the station.
How far would the tail tracks need to be to allow normal speeds? If the tracks were extended to the edge of Ditmars Blvd., would that be enough? This would reduce neighborhood complaints if that intersection was still open to the sky. As it is , the tracks end 100-200'(?) short of the intersection.
JR
How far would the tail tracks need to be to allow normal speeds?
You need enough distance to stop a train with the emergency brakes that is going at the maximum attainable speed. This works out to 612.5 feet beyond the station for a speed of 50 mph and a deceleration rate of 3 mph/sec.
OTOH, they managed to handle 19 tph quit nicely in the past. They are handling only 14 tph today.
The 1 terminus at 242 St. has 2 tracks and no tail tracks. How many TPH do they haNDLE?
Maximum scheduled service today is about 12 tph. Before 9/11, maximum scheduled service (northbound in the morning rush only) was about 15 tph.
(I base these numbers on the published timetables. Where I see headways of, e.g., "4-6 minutes," I assume average headways of 5 minutes, for 12 tph.)
This will all become academic once they start extending the N to LGA.
When will that happen?
- Lyle Goldman
Around the same time as the extension along Ditmars Blvd. to LaGuardia Airport.
Yesterday I rode the PATH train from 14th Street to Newark. On the frieght tracks next to the PATH ROW south of Journal Square, I saw a slew of gondolas - loaded with SNOW! What in the Sam Hill were they doing there? I hope that they were not from Buffalo - that would be crazy. There has not been any snow in the Tri State regionlately, so what gives? You never know what you might see from a train these days.
My dad told me once there was so much snow in Chicago that a train of boxcars was loaded up with snow and sent to the Florida. Most of it melted along the way, but enough made it to give the Floridians there first look at snow.
David
Someone on another message board reported seeing a similar sight in Philly's Greenwich Yard. Maybe it's being shipped to Jersey to ease the drought. :)
Why would they waste time loading it into rail cars to ship somewhere, when they could just as well dump it in the Delaware River?
I'd be willing to bet it isn't SNOW in the gondola inthe rail yard, but it was a gondola load of ballast, rocks, dirt, junk, etc. that just got a good covering with snow.
It's snow. They are snowed up in upstate. They ship the snow to somewhere hot to melt off. That train was probably gons full of snow going to Florida, and by the time it gets there the gons are empty and the train goes back for another load. I don't rememebr if Selkirk TMO has mentioned this before. They certain do it on the MoPac -- they ship it to Texas.
Yep ... when you get snow like we do upstate (and AMAZINGLY, there's not a FLAKE on the ground here) you try to pile it up next to the road, in the back of parking lots and any hole you can find. Rivers tend to be iced over, so that's not an answer. Eventually you run out of places to pile it and so you start front-loading it into trucks, trains or anything that's leaving town just to put it SOMEWHERE.
Joisey's a good place as far as Buffalo and the Tug Hill plateau are concerned. :)
What you say may be true, but I am in Texas and I have not seen any snow from anywhere, and MoPac goes through town. Austin,TX.
They get diverted to Waco for sno-cones. :)
Many years ago I handled a restaurant for a CPA firm. The restaurant was located at the end of South Ocean Avenue and the Great South Bay in Patchogue New York. When there was a lot of snow the Town of Brookhaven and the Village of Patchogue would load snow into dump trucks and they'd go onto the pier just past the Restaurant, dump the load into the Great South Bay and go reload.
Several years later after a large snow, the trucks didn't arrive and I asked the restauranteur why not and he said that the EPA banned the practice because it was harmful to the marine life.
That's probably why Buffalo can't just dump the snow in any body of water up there.
Several years later after a large snow, the trucks didn't arrive and I asked the restauranteur why not and he said that the EPA banned the practice because it was harmful to the marine life.
So, where do they keep the tarp to cover the bay during a snowstorm?
The snow that has been scraped off the streets is significantly contaminated by oil, salt, and other compounds. Dumping these, in concentration, into the bay can "shock" the water and kill marine life.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One OTHER small angle (I'm sure the EPA angle had to do with salt mixed in being dumped into SALT water, go figure - in upstate New York, it's illegal to dump LEAVES in the Hudson) is that unlike the salt water that surrounds the city and Long Island and the Hudson up toe the "saltwater line" near Beacon is that upstate, the rivers which consist of UNsalted water are frozen solid this time of year.
Down south, snow can be dumped into the ocean perhaps in winter because the water is still in a liquid state. Not so upstate. It just piles and sits there and eventually you run out of place to pile it. When this happens, it has to be trucked or railroaded elsewhere where it can be offloaded. And if it heads south in deadhead cars and is gone by the time it gets to where the empty cars are needed, the whole world is a happier place. It's actually that simple ...
After the big snowstorm here in NYC a few years ago (1996?), the city dumped lots of snow in the Hudson. If I'm wrong, kindly account for those huge chunks of ice I saw from Riverside Park.
NYC's storm overflow drains go straight into the river as well. Actually an ingenious bit of design that permits the regular sewage to go to treatment plants and only the overflow to the river during gully washers in the city. But as to the snow, the BIG advantage NYC has is that the Hudson rarely freezes there thanks to the salt content and the size of the river down there.
Up in Buffalo and much of the rest of upstate, the rivers and lakes freeze over for winter and stay that way. No place to dump the snow once you've filled the usual locations, so off it goes to somewhere else when you're all full up. And it gets MIGHTY expensive for upstate communities to ship it out ... MIGHTY expensive.
Yep ... it's from out west ... New York City ships its garbage up here, we ship snow back. NAFTA is good. :)
Yellow snow???
Only where the huskies go ... generally up here, the snow may contain some road salt and dirt that's spread on, but largely it's mostly plain old snow. Up here isn't like down there where the snow looks real pretty all over everything for about 6 hours and then it turns brown. Nothing prettier though than when it snowed on the els and the trains got a whole lot quieter during the storms. A good snowstorm had a way of absorbing the noise and increasing the "sparkiness" up there. :)
And this is from a passenger.
I know it's for "safety" (more like "liability"), but why do there have to be so many g**amn timers. For example, I was so excited this morning to be able to catch a W train at Pacific Street because the next stop would be Canal in Manhattan!. That's a pretty hefty distance with no stops. I could have walked faster.
And someone on the board mentioned the timers at Ditmars in Astoria preventing quick turn-arounds there.
They just put a whole bunch of those wacky new flashing lunar Wheel Detector lights at Queens Plaza, forcing Queensbound locals to crawl into the station.
There's also the timers placed what seems like about a yard apart as the Queens-bound 7 approaches Grand Central.
And people often post about the slowness of the CPW express trains, which by all rights should zoom up and down the park.
And countless others.
Is it just that a few drunk or sleepy T/O's, who couldn't seem to keep their eyes on the road, screwed it up for everybody? Aren't the block signals which are already there enough to throw the train into BIE if it gets too close to one ahead? No, I'm not a T/O, but when I look out the front window, there are so many places where there's not a train in sight, and a decent view down the tracks, wherein the T/O could really open 'er up, but timers have us plodding along like a silver snail. Can't we depend on and trust our T/O friends to use their eyeballs for cryin' out loud?! Pretty soon, people are gonna wonder why they put the word "rapid" in "rapid transit."
"Is it just that a few drunk or sleepy T/O's, who couldn't seem to keep their eyes on the road, screwed it up for everybody?"
I believe so. Once someone has proved an accident can happen, the TA has to prevent it from ever happening again, or else risk an incredibly large negligence award.
Definitely that's what happened on the downtown Lex express at 14th. It was a great ride from GCT until the big accident. Now they slow down at 23rd.
Are you talking about the 1991 accident or something recently because I noticed in the last year that the expresses going down Lex have gotten slower between 14-Brooklyn Bridge.
I was referring to 1991. I don't know what would cause them to slow down below 14th, except maybe a general phobia about going around a curve too fast and possibly causing someone who isn't holding on to fall down. I agree there are some moderate curves below 14th that don't really seem to deserve the slow speeds they take them at.
The 1991 Union Square crash occurred on a straight stretch, at a switch, which was entered at a high speed by a motorman who was found to not be in control of his train.
wayne
We know. AIUI, one finding of the subsequent investigation was that the train passed red signals and went BIE, but because of the train's high speed, that wasn't enough to prevent the accident. That would explain why speeds have been reduced through there.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
-- Tim
Last time I was there, there was ONE timer north of Union Square.
Could be, but it has a powerful influence. Pre-1991, downtown expresses used to slow down at around 16th street as they entered the station. Now you can feel them slow down (because of the yellow light due to the timer) at 23rd Street.
On a lighter note, the R46 R train I rode yesterday hit 50 MPH in the 60th St. tube.
I looooooooove the 60th Street tube, especially in an R-32 on a late night or weekend. It's one of the only places the trains can still really move!
I don't think the bridge problem was due to timers. Sometimes, especially in the mornings, the trains start getting backed up and the bridge crossing goes slow. At other times, they cross at a decent speed.
The crossed much faster on the north side. Perhaps the merger of the W with the N/R at 34th St. slows the whole thing up.
SEPTA Broad street subway. hehe you got speed there.
They just put a whole bunch of those wacky new flashing lunar Wheel Detector lights at Queens Plaza, forcing Queensbound locals to crawl into the station.
What are Wheel Detector lights? Where are they installed? I've noticed that R's and E's and F's on the express track Queensbound have crawled into there, but I don't mind. The E's and F's travel at a decent speed until just before Queens Plaza i/b, but it's no big deal.
There's also the timers placed what seems like about a yard apart as the Queens-bound 7 approaches Grand Central.
Exactly how slow do q/b trains pull into the station?
And people often post about the slowness of the CPW express trains, which by all rights should zoom up and down the park.
As I have mentioned in my other post, if you ride a D train in either direction, you won't be complaining about the slow ride as some may have on the A. Is there a difference regarding this?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
1. Wheel detectors are a fancy form of timers. They measure the speed of a train as the ENTIRE train passes them, not just the speed of the front car, and can trip a train even after the front car has passed through. They are installed in strategic locations throughout the system.
2. Someone more familiar with the line can tell us what the posted speed is approaching Grand Central on the Queens-bound Flushing Line. However, often, throughout the system, Train Operators go through timers at less than the posted speed.
3. There should be no (or virtually no) difference between D trains and A trains on the Central Park West express tracks. If there is a difference (and it might be more a matter of perception than reality), it is most likely in the way the trains are being operated by their Train Operators rather than in the equipment.
David
In response to number 2:
That's because most of the timers aren't exactly precise. You have to go like 3-4mph slower than posted speed for the timer to clear right by you. There was a GT20 on the E line somewhere in the simulator, I put a 20 brake when I was going 25, went down to 17, cleared right as I passed it. Either that, or the speedometers aren't exact. Whatever.
The simulator will clear at any speed. It's a laserdisc recording.
I know. I've used it.
David
True- it is the major flaw in it.
The new ones with motion will not have similar problems.
-Harry
Exactly. And for those who don't know, the graphics on the new simulator will be completely different from the current ones' graphics. They'll ALL be computer-generated (as opposed to the cartoon-like stuff that's occasionally thrown in front of the video clips on the current ones).
David
I wanted them to but in a cracked glass graphic for derailing or the unintentional add at CIY like the old Battlezone game.
Or if you overspeed or hit a signal they could cut to a TSS and a burly T/O that take you OOS.
GAME OVER. :)
Hey transit might be full of perverts but to a kid the yard is fun you can see Dwarves, play with the Dolly and the chair and housetops, boys of course will like the bugmen.
I think her arm got tired or something like that otherwise I'd start to worry about my job.
Wannabe1 you bring me tears of joy. You forgot the lollypops. CI Peter
Transit workers play with dollies and eat bugs ... are we SURE this is the image we wanna project? Heh.
I know, me too. I didn't know that it would clear at any speed though, I thought it was somehow modified before being put on a laserdisc.
There is actually one signal you can hit. If you ever get there again, ask for the alternate scenario at 138 St/Grand Concourse on the 4.
I put a 20 brake when I was going 25, went down to 17, cleared right as I passed it. Either that, or the speedometers aren't exact. Whatever.
Are you a T/O on the NYCT? I thought you were a teenager.
I was at the simulator on take your kid to work day. A TSS said the best one there was a 9 yo.
If a 16 year old kid can make almost a round trip on the A train, anyone can do it.
True, but he couldn't overcome a BIE
Nor a TSS checkpoint... or did he?
On a simulator?
3. There should be no (or virtually no) difference between D trains and A trains on the Central Park West express tracks. If there is a difference (and it might be more a matter of perception than reality), it is most likely in the way the trains are being operated by their Train Operators rather than in the equipment.
Next time you ride a D on CPW, post your response here.
I've ridden both, on many occasions. I have perceived no distinction in speed. (Perception is all I have to go by.)
The next time I ride a D train on Central Park West, I will not be riding an A train in the same place, on the same track, at the same time, since that is impossible. Therefore, there is no valid basis for comparison.
Again: the cars are designed to do the same thing in the same way under the same operating conditions. If they don't, unless there's a defect, it's because the Train Operator is doing something different.
David
I was videotaping along CPW at 110th St, 96th ST and 81st last Friday, and all the trains seemed to be going at nearly the same speed to me, regardless of the R-series in the consist.
--Mark
Well, get used to it, Pete. The TA is definitely slowing down the system with all sorts of timers; be they grade time, station time, approach, lunar white, or wheel detectors. And it costs lots of money to change them in order to speed up service, so don't look for them to change anytime soon.
I've noticed that the timers are mostly on mainline express tracks, and not on the local. Which might explain why local trains are only two or three minutes behind their express counterparts. Yet another reason to grab a local when it comes.
These timers kinda defeat the whole idea of express trains and services. They're the main reason why there isn't that much of difference on some lines between the express and local. Expresses are supposed to be fast, especially where there are long stretches between express stops. On the Central Park West Line and certain areas of the Queens Blvd Line that is not the case. As a kid (which wasn't that long ago) I remember how trains used to blow through these stretches. I suspect that the MTA is purposely trying to get more people to ride the local trains. If there are no safety issues involved, then I think that creating these timers are a complete waste of money. What can anyone do about them though?
Expresses are not supposed to be fast; they are supposed to make less stops.
I don't know about that, I think passengers generally favor expresses over locals because they believe they could get to their destination quicker with expresses. An express doing 15 kinda defeats that whole idea (not to mention the original planners intent of these routes).
I don't know about that, I think passengers generally favor expresses over locals because they believe they could get to their destination quicker with expresses.
That's probably why the average passenger would wait for an express. However, I think that expresses just make less stops as Alex L has said. With the expresses, you only gain about 2 or 3 minutes. For instance, the when an express train goes from 36th street to Pacific, it will usually pass 1 local and catch up to another local waiting at Pacific. However, if the local at 36 leaves even a minute earlier, the express will pass the local at Prospect Av or 9th St. From there, the express and the local have the same amount of distance to Pacific. By the time the express is at Pacific, I'll bet the local's one stop away at Union St. If they leave 36 together, however, the local will be passed at 25th St when it needs to stop. I'm pretty sure the local will be at 9th St or heading to Union by the time the express is at Pacific.
Also with Lexington Av express. 2 summers ago, when I needed to go to 68th st, I took the express to GCT because it's the last express station with both local and express on the same platform. On the first morning, I saw a 6 at BB. I though it's a local and there's a long way up Lex, so I stayed on the express. I passed no other locals on the way up and that 6 ended up at GCT not much later than the express pulled out.
Same with 6th Ave express. From W4 to 34, on the express feels fast and seem fast considering it's only 2 minutes to go 30 blocks. Everytime there was a F at W4 and I was on the express, the express gets to 34th first, of course. However, it amazes me that when I get off the train, the same F from W4 is pulling in. It's the same because I remembered the car numbers. How did the F do that? It makes 3 extra stops, yet it right behind the express... amazing.
Last week I made a connection with the same 3 at 72, 42, & 14.
And, thanks to the new WD on the express track at 96, the 3 probably missed the connection there.
They put in wheel detectors at 96 St southbound?
The ones entering 96 northbound, active only when the train will be crossed to the Upper B'way local, have been there since the Lenox Invert project
No Alex. No new WD's on Broadway.
No, northbound.
Perhaps they've been there for a while, but they've generally been inactive until now. Now they seem to be active whenever any train pulls in on the express track -- perhaps because 2 trains now merge in from the local.
You're forgetting about the comfort factor. When you take an express (especially during rush hour), you can sort of settle into a spot a little longer. On the local, at the 2 or 3 stops where the express whizzes by, you have people alighting and detraining, causing you and your neighbors to have to shift around, or perhaps crushing you against your fellow passengers even more as they enter the car. And we've all played the get-out-of-the-way-of-one-passenger-only-to-hear-a-nasal-exCUSE-me-of-another-whose-way-you-just-got-in game at stops during rush hour. Of course, that's just part of the commute, and we all have to deal with it. However, on an express train, especially on most IND routes, having less stops to wait for the shift of passengers can make the trip a little more pleasant, if not faster.
Express trains are much more crowded than locals, the exception being the 1 & 6 lines perhaps.
Still, fewer stops means fewer hassles. When I lived on the U.E.S., I did find the 6 was always less crowded than the 4 or 5 in the morning rush. Keep in mind that the continuous lack of 2nd Ave subway makes the Lex line a unique animal. My destination was only 4 local stops away anyway, so I just took the 6. Had I had a longer trip, I would have opted for the 4 or 5 and dealt with the crunch, but not the monotonous stop-stop-stop...
And, until the express was cancelled on Monday, the N in Astoria.
I see you're assuming that you have a seat. When I ride the subway, I assume that I'll stand, and occasionally I get a pleasant surprise. On the local I'm more likely to get a seat eventually, especially if I stay on past a transfer point to the express, because (as you say) the local has greater turnaround. Rapid turnaround is a good thing.
Good point about expresses and locals, N Train. I guess I'm one of those people who are convinced that local trains are the devil. Sometimes there just isn't a big difference between the express and local; such as the 4th Ave (Brooklyn) 6 Ave or Broadway El lines. Other times they're big differences between expresses and locals such as the Brighton or Flushing lines. I guess it depends on the number of stations the express skips on a line and the amount of traffic on the express tracks.
It's funny you should mention the Brighton Express and Local. If I'm not mistaken, the Brighton Express has no timers on it between Prospect Park and Sheepshead Bay in both directions. Surprising. I wonder how long it will be before the TA slows that down.
SSssshhhhhhhhhhh! :)
I second that!!!
Yeah, really.
You do have the annual fall slowdown northbound around Av. H. Takes away the most exciting part of the run.
Station timers, yes...grade timers, no(t yet).
David
Is it Sheepshead s/b that people overrun?
Not in MY days ... there IS a curve though ... S/B ... Brighton next. Home balls ...
Maybe it was Kings Hway express
It's not a bad station it just is faster than it looks. My theory is that with all that back and forth on the curve the wheels aren't in full contact with the rail for the brake to take fully.
Nyah Nyah yourself we only have 3mph deceleration not 4 like you guys did. Did you use the Fred Flintsone method to get that extra stopping power?
Heh ... back in MY day buster, we had TA issued Fred Flintstone rockasauarus shoes that not only stopped the train, but left SPLINTERS in the platform. :)
I remember that stop ... as I've confessed MANY times, I was a pussy on the handle ... you learned to do that with R1/9's the way they were (ahem) "maintained" ... no two stops the same. I guess that's why I can handle writing software to work with "Billyware" ... heh.
But yes, your MTA dress shoes were worn to a nub after two trips. :)
And yeah, you're right ... that's why ops in my time were "full serve, regular or premium first" and you'd INCH up to the marker ... just in case you passed it. (grin)
Didn't they have a coal stoker when you operated? Or was it still mule pulled?
It was done with cables and sails. Heh. Those hamsters at Kips Bay gave their all. :)
Other times they're big differences between expresses and locals such as the Brighton or Flushing lines.
The Brighton express saves seven minutes. The Flushing express saves six minutes.
Expresses save time for those traveling between express stops; locals save time for those traveling between local stops. That seems pretty obvious.
Check out 4 track (uptown local) from Franklin Ave. to Chambers St. if you think that there are not alot of timers on local tracks.
You are right. That whole northbound part of the Brooklyn IRT has nothing but timers on it between Franklin Avenue and Atlantic Avenue on both the Lexington and Seventh Avenue Lines. I never understood why.
The 7th Avenue Line between Wall and Chambers Streets in Manhattan I can see putting timers; after all, some of those curves are very sharp.
Police= New York's Finest
Firemen= New York's Bravest
Sanitation= New York's Strongest
TA= New York's Safest
Safety is the TA's only concern. Fast efficient service was erased from their list of priorities years ago.
Thankyou LuchAAA...makes me proud. CI Peter
If safety and speed are mutually exclusive (and I'm far from convinced they are), wouldn't you rather have the former?
Ron in Bayside, Stephen Baumann, and Peter Rosa and JC Gridlock got it right. (have I missed anyone else? Sorry.)
The location is in Boston’s South End under the old Orange Line, between Dover St. and Northampton St. stations. I lived in Boston for many years, and took shots in this area while the el was still running as well as during and after it’s demolition. Thompson Square station listed in one of the links is not in the South End, it was on the northern part of the Orange line across the river in Charlestown, that ended service several years earlier (1975?) than the southern half which ran until 1987.
RonInBayside needed two tries, though. My first guess, posted in response to the question, was the Jamaica El.
The Jamaica el would have been my first guess as well, due to the missing middle track. It didn't look anything like the Jamaica el otherwise, so it wasn't a very good guess -- and, besides, the definitive answer was posted by the time I first saw the thread.
Thompson Square station listed in one of the links is not in the South End...
I didn't mean to imply that the ambulance scene was at Thompson square; rather, the style of the structure in the Thompson Square photos was almost identical.
OK......what's the latest news on the R-143 30 clock ?
Any problems ? I heard of no setbacks. If so, can we be heading to a straight 30 days with no problems ?
The suspense is killing me !!
Bill "Newkirk"
On our little trip, I was told there was ONE reset somewhere around the 10th ... none since that I'm aware of ... looks like those babies are going to make the finish line unlike some of our friends on the IRT ...
>>looks like those babies are going to make the finish line unlike some of our friends on the IRT <<
HAH !! THE BMT STILL RULES !
Bill "Newkirk"
PUT that thing back in yer pants ... wanna go blind?!?!?! But yeah, B division size does seem to work better than the A division size. 16 ounce cans for 12 ounce cans or something like that.
The 10th is the last day of the test for what I was told a few day ago by the Company emp on the train. I possed this a few day ago, in a one of the other threads.
Robert
Knew I heard it somewhere. Given the experiences over on the other division, it's nice to see some new cars made right. Aside from the placement of the handle. I ain't giving up that one bit of kvetching easily. :)
Didn't they cheat one day - a false indication which disrupted service anyhow, and they didn't reset the clock ?
>>Didn't they cheat one day - a false indication which disrupted service anyhow, and they didn't reset the clock ? <<
I heard that was a false indication and not a mechanical fault that would have sidelined the trainset. Even if it was a fault and the clock had to be reset, look how flawless they are so far. Got my fingers crossed.
Bill "Newkirk"
So how do we explain this sudden success?
Are all of the functioning parts the same as the R142 parts -- which have now been de-bugged -- just attached to a wider frame?
>>So how do we explain this sudden success?<<
Maybe the R-142A was the ultimate guinea pig ! Since all the bugs were worked out, they just applied that to the R-143s as production just maybe underway.
BTW - I photographed and rode the R-143s today. You can tell they have been running 25 days straight. They are getting grungy inside and out. A Kawasaki employee with a clipboard told me that this was day 25 on the 30 day clock.
Bill "Newkirk"
NO......R142 parts are not Kawasaki.....R142As share with R143. There are many commonly shared parts but Bomba and Kawa are different fruits. The MAJOR difference between R142s and R142As is undercar: Kawasakis trucks will last far longer on NYC trackage. CI Peter
There was also one day that the destination signs and automated announcements weren't functioning (due to shuttle bus service in the middle of the line).
Let us keep our fingers crossed that the R-143s make it to the 30 day mark without a hitch.
#3 West End Jeff
Let's not. The more problems are discovered now, the fewer have to be fixed later, at the TA's expense.
When you buy a dishwasher with a 60-day warranty, do you baby it for those 60 days so you won't have to use the warranty? Of course not -- you make it work as hard as you can so that if it's not up to snuff, you'll know before you have to worry about repairs.
It is in the TA's interests to allow the 30-day clock to run as long as possible. The manufacturer would have been thrilled if the TA had dispensed with the clock entirely.
Agreed entirely. Kawasaki is probably a far more better manufacturer of trainsets than Bombardier and the TA has only recently learned some hard learned lessons in replacing the Redbird fleet. We're busy discovering new maintainance problems holding up the R142 fleet for RTO duty. Balking about the announcements, seating and lighting is BS....what counts to NYC TA is getting people to work on time. CI Peter
Given how much the TA (i.e., the riding public) has paid for the fancy announcements, seating, and lighting (no, I don't have a number), balking about these systems is very much appropriate.
Are the Kawasaki built R-62s better than the Bombardier R-62As?
#3 West End Jeff
Mean Distance Between Failures, October 2001:
R-62: 272,365
R-62A: 149,176
David
That the R62 has such a high MDBF is truly remarkable. Those cars acclumulate a lot of mileage in a hurry and spend lots of time on the road. It is express to Utica during the day, yet on the midnite it is all local with a longer run the New Lots. This means that while other lines lay up most of their fleet at night, they can't due to the additional time it takes to make a round trip to/from Woodlawn.
That the R62 has such a high MDBF is truly remarkable. Those cars acclumulate a lot of mileage in a hurry and spend lots of time on the road. It is express to Utica during the day, yet on the midnite it is all local with a longer run the New Lots. This means that while other lines lay up most of their fleet at night, they can't due to the additional time it takes to make a round trip to/from Woodlawn.
Only 84% of the "Remarkable" R62's is available for servie. Only 77% are currently required for peak service. It would appear that the maintenance services have a very long time to keep them maintained.
By contrast the 88% of the R62A's are available for service and 80% are used during peak periods.
Of course, the availability king title goes to the R33S's with 89% of the fleet available and 82% being used during pead service.
If you keep bowing to the false god of MDBF you will find that 10 minute rush hour headways will become the norm. :-)
In the case of the 143 out on the Canarsie line, it does appear as though THIS trainset was built well. TA's gotten MIGHTY fussy lately and is looking for any little detail to hit the reset over, especially after the acceptance problems for the others. These might actually turn out to NOT be TA citrus ...
What's disappointing in my mind is how forgiving the TA has been of major design flaws in the automated signage/announcement system.
Heh. Well, if that's all that's still broken, I for one would just cut the wires and declare victory. :)
And let passengers guess where the train is going? That might be okay on the L -- but it will cause problems on the M, which shares trackage with the J/Z, N, R, and W and shares the platform at DeKalb with the Q.
Besides, the riding public paid a lot of money for a system that so far has been a lot less reliable than a set of rollsigns -- even the kind on the Redbirds with publicly accessible knobs.
The riding public has unknowingly paid a lot of money for trainsets that do not always let them know where they are or where they're going. They do not even know how lucky they might be in getting to their destinations on schedule. The manufacturer of the trainsets along with their vendors assume sole responsibility for delivering defective equipment.....TA placed a hold on acceptance of any new R142s for a reason. CI Peter
I don't disagree with you in any way shape or form. I guess I'm a product of my own TA environment. When you would literally KISS the platform when you got to where you had planned on, and in one piece. BONUS points if it was the same day you LEFT for that location. :)
Thus, I'm remarkably easy to please. Your mileage may vary. If the end sign tells me what train it is, I'll be responsible for the rest and knowing where my stop is long before I get there. Used to be like that.
But the first time I rode the R-143 (during the L GO), the end sign was turned off! So were the side signs, internal signs, automated announcements, and (surprising, but not critical by any means) door chimes. It simply could not handle the fact that it was only going as far as Myrtle. Even the R-46 does better than that (the side signs can be programmed to display any B Division station, although not necessarily with a route letter, and the end signs are, of course, independent of any automation).
Heh. Well, a contractor will build what they're told to AS they're told to, so it would appear there could have been some Bronx Handshake in the design. Still, I'd be willing to forgive something like that in an unusual circumstance. Did you MAKE it to Myrtle? That'd be my biggest concern. Up here where I live, if the lights are on, life is good. :)
Do you mean that the announcements and signs only work right when the train runs it's normal route? If a run anything other than it's normal route the announcements and signs don't work. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
There is no automated announcement and destination sign menu programed into an L train operating between Canarise and Myrtle/Wycoff. That is one of the criticisms to the new car engineering people that RTO has reported. It is up to the powers beyond the scope of RTO to make the situation proper.
I'm CERTAIN it can be easily programmed into the system, just wasn't done prior to the need. After all, we managed to upload over 1500 pictures from Harry's place into the computer before the train crashed. :)
Kidding!
Can't they at least overide the system and make live station announcements? Although I still can't see in this era of computers that they can't program alternate routes in addition to the normal route.
No offense, but these are NEW, PROGRAMMABLE cars ... what we seem to have here is the lack of foreskin to have "programmed in" the situation at hand. Lacking such a solution to "what if it terminates at a strange stop?" since the 143's are in TESTING on road duty, the option was likely not there to bring it back to the barn for "regrooving" ... since the 143's are under "test status" and since the change of operating mode was a GO of some sorts, sure as getout wouldn't be fair to the vendor under "reichstad gepruft" (testing) to make them change the annoucements without a "time out" ...
I understand that a lot of people may be unhappy with the subway for whatever slights there may be in a given day - I remember a time when the subways were a *JOKE* and having visited after nearly 30 years absence from the "system", I was not only impressed by how it all runs TODAY, but have stains in the pants that will NOT wash out over how WELL it's running now.
Geez, get OVER it ... the 143's are NOT in service ... they're getting stomped BRONX style in service, and those babies are taking a licking and keep on ticking ... bad signage? bad announces? Hell, let's see them do that on day 31 through day 400,067 ... unimportant in the greter scheme AT THE MOMENT! (emphasis)
"what we seem to have here is the lack of foreskin to have "programmed in" the situation at hand"
WHAT?!
oh my!
Oy GEVALT - as joe would say from time to time
Live station announements were being made by the conductor....I am sure that the missing program (Canarsie to Myrtle/Wycoff) will be programed in.
They can make manual announcements, but there are no rollsigns to be manually cranked.
well i saw the R143 go by today and it look as sharp as a thistle.
Let me guess. You took a picture from the front of an R-42 passing the other way at Sutter. Funny, so did I!
Isn't it just amazing.....SOAC and we can't update the displays or announcements. It isn't beyond the scope of RTO to make the situation proper...revenue means MONEY and if the trainset is defective....a REFUND is DUE. Bombardier and Kawasaki have failed to provide Car Equipment Department the tools to update systems...they're keeping the work to themselves...and so has the vendors. CI Peter
The signs and announcements only work on programmed routes. Any deviation, and not only are there no automated announcements, there are no route signs.
IMO, the R-143 should have no difficulty being programmed to make any subset of the L stops. The destination sign would give the last stop programmed, and announcements would still work. The R-142(A) should be programmable for all mainline IRT stations, allowing, say, a 2 to be rerouted up the East Side (either for a GO or on the spur of the moment). It should also figure out, based on the stops it's programmed to make, whether it's a local or an express.
Knob Rotation kicks ass. I love my 4 To woodlawn as south terminal and 111st Corona as my north terminal. Bou howdy go figure that one.
(Don't blame me -- I didn't do it.)
niceee
I have a hex so i've been known to play around with the R-32 side signs as well
A lost Redbird. Hmmmmm.
No. Special GO !!! Start at 138th..go around the Ferry and continue up to 96th !!!
They are not major design flaws.....the automated announcements and the destination displays do work flawlessly. Problem is that the system is still too new and that inspection crews do not have the laptops in each team to do the work.......in fact, TA does not have available to us the necessary equipment and software to update anything. These problems still remain in the hands of the vendors and TA is NOT forgiving of these problems. David, you know me by now and how much I'm interested in doing this work. You have read my postings AND KNOW MY ASSIGNMENTS. The work that is being done is to make the R142 trainsets reliable for everyday usage. The TA was 'forced' into a situation of 'international cooperation' that has yet to benefit the public. It is a sorry situation when the work that needs to be done will be done by US when the warranties expire. As always, the R142s remain safe transportation. 'Let MTA get you there...Car Inspectors assure your safety.' CI Peter
The warranty period is 5 years, correct? I think that's an awefully short time considering the life span of a subway car is supposed to be 50+ years. It's like having only a 9 day warranty on your VCR :)
There's a lot more things that can go wrong on a train than a VCR too.
Shawn.
I don't expect R142s to run for five years with the truck they are equipped with. TA isn't going to play games anymore with manufacturers and vendors...the public expects up to date transports and demands service. Nuff said
Sure hope you guys kept some of those redbird trucks in the back of the carbarn ... can we say "retro" boys and girls? :)
180th crew foreman has me pegged for sub work on Redbirds...really good feeling, really confidence building. I do know for a fact that there will be some 'Redbird reserve' held but I for one want to see an end to the nasty-dirty work...my job changes every day. I'm towards the last page for the 'pick' and like the day troubles crew. I found my work, a home and friends. CI Peter
That is true. I wonder if the T/A is trying to work the hell out of the R-143s to see if they're up to snuff?
#3 West End Jeff
I have no idea.
If the R-143's are really working as well as the test results would indicate, great. I'm just worried that the TA is engaging in grade inflation, which isn't good for any of us.
When we rode it last Christmas, it was chock full of people with stopwatches timing the doors, a full cab people with clipboards and test equipment out the wazoo ... I don't think they're playing around with any of the testing ... and knowing what trains SHOULD do, I can tell ya, I had my eye peeled too and every aspect I could detect was flawless ...
Okay, Selkirk, here we go again. The R143s are running over B division, but former BMT trackage. I still think of the R1/9s you loved as filth, steel dust loaded, smoky, bare-light-bulb cattle cars that huffed and puffed in their and long, depressing underground stretches. Fine for the C and E lines. They should never have been allowed on a BMT line. Ever.
Huff and puff?!? Come on. Moaned, groaned, grunted, snarled and hissed, yes. Those old timers could MOVE. Unless you had a train with a bunch of bad motors.
Guys: don't paralyze your fingers crossing.....grab a 40 oz. CI Peter
Heh. I managed to take some time at ground level next to a 143 and had a GOOD look around them. The battery box on the B cars HAS air holes. :)
They do look well built, felt good on the rails and moved. No funny noises. Seriously, I expect them to do well and you KNOW what a pain in the butt I can be when judging railcars. Heh. I'd go into more detail but let's see where this thread goes ...
i can't comment on R143 tech yet...I am sure they are better cars. CI Peter
Not having been in a situation of tearing any down in a shop, can't say I'd be qualified. But IMPRESSIONS from riding and taking looks at things I knew to look for left me mighty impressed so far ... and the Canarsie line has just about everything you'd want to test a trainset with ... they're still running. Just a few days left before they reach the finish line ...
You're qualified. Certified QSL CI Peter
If all goes well with the test, when should the new sets start coming, and will they also go on the other eastern div. lines, J & M
The prevailing wisdom that the R143 will make up all L line consists with the leftovers going to the M. The M is presumed to go OPTO for shuttle operations when that happens.
What does OPTO mean?
OPTO is short for One Person Train Operation.
#3 West End Jeff
Ebay has these rapid chargers for $25 the go for 80 to 100 bucks so go check it out
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1317163667
antique ht radio battery chargers? WB2SGT CI Peter
Is Metro-North going to stop at Penn Station? Is the LIRR going to stop at Grand Central? When? I caught the end of a Penny Crone report on FOX5 News (I love Penny Crone haha what a man) about it and I was wondering why; because both could actually benefit me and my co-workers. Thanks!
Is Metro-North going to stop at Penn Station?
The MTA has plan for it to do so once the LIRR East Side Connector lets LIRR run to GCT and frees up some Penn Station slots. See their Penn Station Access study documents on the MTA website.
Is the LIRR going to stop at Grand Central?
Yes. It should open in 12 years or so. Construction has already started in the Sunnyside Yards to connect the LIRR mainline to the lower level of the 63rd Street tunnel. See the MTA's East Side Access project website.
The only MN trains seriously under consideration for going to Penn are New Haven Line trains. Everything else is SubTalk fantasy.
The only MN trains seriously under consideration for going to Penn are New Haven Line trains. Everything else is SubTalk fantasy.
I'm not so sure. Read the MTA study I referenced. They're at least LOOKING at what it would take to run all three lines. My take on likelihood is:
NEW HAVEN: Most likely ... run 'em over Hell Gate, catenary already exists for Amtrak.
HUDSON LINE: Next likely, trackage already there following Amtrak's Empire Line. Need to EITHER add third rail from Spuyten Duyvil to Penn (for Croton-Harmon and below) OR run only diesels (entire Hudson Line).
HARLEM LINE: Least likely, probably fantasy. The routings are too tough. Either they add too much time (through The Hub and back up to Spuyten Duyvil and the Empire Line) or are tricky to build (to get Harlem Line onto reverse-direction New Haven to then turn again onto Hell Gate).
HUDSON LINE: Next likely, trackage already there following Amtrak's Empire Line. Need to EITHER add third rail from Spuyten Duyvil to Penn (for Croton-Harmon and below) OR run only diesels (entire Hudson Line).
I don't know if that will work. They can't run diesels into Penn Station.
I don't know if that will work. They can't run diesels into Penn Station.
Thought they couldn't run diesels through the Hudson tunnels. This doesn't use those.
AND, aren't the Hudson Line diesels actually bimode to use the Park Avenue Tunnel?
AND, Amtrak's Empire trains sure ain't electrics, and THEY use Penn Station ... and those Turbos are smoky and smelly ....
AND, aren't the Hudson Line diesels actually bimode to use the Park Avenue Tunnel?
The problem with that is those diesels use a different type of third rail. LIRR is over the rail. Metro North is under the rail.
The problem with that is those diesels use a different type of third rail. LIRR is over the rail. Metro North is under the rail.
Oh, right. DUH!
Still ... couldn't they run diesel on the West Side to the start of the Connector south of 42nd Street? I have to think there's some way to run MN third rail from there into one platform at Penn, since the Connector does NOT have third rail now.
And what about those Amtrak diesels from Empire service ... ???
And what about those Amtrak diesels from Empire service ... ???
Good question. Anyone know how Amtrak hanldles that problem?
They are dual-mode, running as electrics from third rail (as described earlier in the thread) into Penn.
Yeah I know, but the confusion arose over the different third rail for M-N and LIRR. I guess then, they use diesel until Penn and then use use LIRR version of third rail. So basically, Metro North would have to have dedicated LIRR equipped dual modes to operate the Hudson into Penn.
Not necessarily. MN could equip the entire west Side line with MN's own version of third rail, then use several dedicated tracks at Penn that also use the MN version. That would be easier all around -- for both Amtk and MN.
MN could equip the entire west Side line with MN's own version of third rail, then use several dedicated tracks at Penn that also use the MN version.
We need to know where Amtrak's dual-modes go electric ... is it around 42nd Street or at the north end of the West Side line? In either case, I think you would have at least a short segment of the Connector into Penn that would require BOTH kinds of third rail. Is THAT possible?
They are dual-mode, running as electrics from third rail (as described earlier in the thread) into Penn.
Including the Turbos ???
One more issue: not all the route from Spuyten Duyvel (sp?) to Penn Station is 2 tracks.
What do you mean? Are there stretches where there is only a single track?
- Lyle Goldman
Other posts on this site have mentioned the bridge over the Harlem River and the connector at the south end near Penn Station as being a single track.
Another issue that has been discussed and not resolved, as far as I know, is what kind of power would you use on Hudson Line to Penn trains? MN and LIRR use different third rails. This is not a problem on the New Haven Line because those cars already are outfitted with both MN 3rd rail and pantographs.
I suppose you could outfit the link with overhead wire and use New Haven Line style rolling stock, but this still makes the whole project much more complicated than New Haven Line trains going into Penn.
What's the problem? Put in MN 3rd rail. Hudson, Harklem and NH plus Amtrak can use it. Then dedicate several trcaks at Penn to this service, using MN 3rd rail instead of LIRR 3rd rail.
Dedicated tracks sounds like the snag to me. You certainly can't dedicate any tracks in either of the yards or the tunnel under the East River. Also, Amtrak doesn't use MN 3rd rail, but that's not an issue.
I think you'd have to put in overhead wire, which of course isn't impossible.
You can dedicate the tracks on the west side line and into Penn. That would use MN's 3rd rail. No need to dedicate tracks under the East River. MN's New Haven line can use the existing catenary wire all the way over the Hell Gate bridge and into Penn, like Amtrak does.
You can dedicate the tracks on the west side line and into Penn. That would use MN's 3rd rail.
Actually I suspect that Amtrak Empire service & MN Hudson Line trains might have to share tracks.
No one's answered an earlier question: Can you have tracks wired for both third rail (of one kind of another) AND catenary? 'Cause some part of the Connector has catenary to run the Amtrak trains into Penn. That means to run Hudson Line trains in, you have to add MN third rail to a catenary track. Any examples of this anywhere in the system?
Surely the 32nd/33rd Street tunnels under the East River must have both catenary (for Amtrak) and 3rd rail (for LIRR).
Surely the 32nd/33rd Street tunnels under the East River must have both catenary (for Amtrak) and 3rd rail (for LIRR).
Doh! Right. There you have it. (Unless for some obscure reason 2 of the 4 have catenary and the other 2 have third-rail ... any T/Os wanna comment?)
They have to all have thrid rail because the LIRR uses them all. At least 1 or 2 have to have catenary for Amtrak.
If I recallcorrectly, some of the tracks in the Sunnyside Yard and leading to the East River tubes have both third rail and catenary (except where Amtrak diverges to go north into the Bronx). The Hudson tube does not, because no third-rail service operates that way.
Do any of the Amtrak trains on the Empire and Adirondack lines run on electricity? If so, what kind do they use?
- Lyle Goldman
Do any of the Amtrak trains on the Empire and Adirondack lines run on electricity? If so, what kind do they use?
Sure... all of them do. It's the kind they generate on board :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One more issue: not all the route from Spuyten Duyvel (sp?) to Penn Station is 2 tracks
You sure? I thought they double-tracked the whole thing several years ago.
You're right for the actual Connector itself (the late '80s part between the West Side Line and the Penn interlocking). It was expensive enough to thread a single track under the foundations of the tall buildings above it -- they actually had to transfer load from one foundation column and remove the column altogether to get the alignment in.
The Spuyten Duyvil Bridge is single-tracked -- though years ago it was double-tracked, so I assume they could do it again.
Does anyone know what the first equipment that was given the 30 day test was?
I think it may have been the R46, brought on by all the problems with the R44's, but I don't really know.
The earliest 30-day test I know of was the R-62, in 1983, which followed the R-44 (just about everything) AND R-46 (mostly undercarriage) problems.
David
Yes, the debacles with the R44 & R46 led to a major change in the way the TA procured new cars.
Would the R-44s and R-46s pass the 30 day test? Perhaps not. I'm sure they still have problems keeping them running at times to this day.
#3 West End Jeff
Who on this board rode those BMT Multisections??
I think those were really cute trains...too bad they scrapped them all.
Also...
What color were they exactly??
They look brown in some color photos from the era, maroon/dark red in others.
Are there any serviving units today?
No, all were scrapped when they were retired in 1961.
-- Ed Sachs
"No, all were scrapped when they were retired in 1961."
Which was before they thought of saving cars for historical purposes, probably..
Still...
Does anyone know what color the Multis really were??
They seemed to be the same color as the Standards, "weathered".
I hate to say this, but there are no surviving Multi-Section units today. They were all scrapped by 1962 to my best guess.
#3 West End Jeff
I rode the Multis in service in their last regular home, #10 Myrtle-Chambers. I didn't know their history, then, and didn't much care for them. They weren't terrible attractive or comfortable, but were they ever SPEEDY.
Think R-10 with a hotshot motorman but faster.
But what COLOR were they??
:)
Greller says they were Light Brown with Silver roofs, though his rendering on the cover of Cars of the BMT is rather reddish.
At the time they were retired, the TA didn't wash cars, so virtually all equipment, the Multis included, were a sort of neutral grayish brown (I guess you would call it), a combination of dirt, grease and steel dust.
I have that book, and it's fantastic...
Also, his other book, NYC Subway Cars, is great.
I saw the Multi pictures in there, but I wasn't sure of their exact color because in the color pictures of them, all the colors look a little off.
Thanks for your help, I appreciate it, as always.
:)
The word "grimey" seems an appropriate adjective to describe what all cars looked like by the early 1960's.
>>But what COLOR were they??<<
I have a slide taken at E.105th St on the Canarsie Line and the cars are painted brown. Whether that was a repaint or original, I'm not sure. But most of the older BMT cars like the Standards and D-Types were brown when they were new. I was told the same color brown as a UPS truck. BTW - the E105th St shot was real old. there was nothing on either side of the tracks. The sticks man !!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> the same color brown as a UPS truck. <<<
But unwashed for twenty years and with absolutely no reflective shine. If you ran a finger along the outside surface when a car was in a station, it felt gritty, and your finger was extremely dirty.
Tom
I've heard that the articulation of the multi's allowed them to traverse the sharp curves of the eastern division at higher speeds than other cars. They also had horrible brakes and often overshot stations.
Wish the R143's were designed this way. If you're gonna permanently link them in 4 car sets, why not use articulation?
Grellar's book has a story of a multi-section running through the Myrtle Avenue station, through the switch over to the Myrtle Avenue El, up the ramp, and then finally stopping at Central (I think).
All with no apparent reason.
Yup, I read that story. Talk about lousy brakes! No wonder these trains ran non stop on the 14th St line in Brooklyn.
I've heard those stories too, but never experienced it myself. From what I've heard, it had more to do with a control issue than brakes, per se.
The account in Grellar's book made it sound like it was funny. "Boy, those cars did just like to run," is how I remembered it.
You could have had a major disaster at the crossover, or running into the rear end of one of the wooden el cars that were still running on the Myrtle.
These were the days before radio communications.
Dumb question: could the multi's run on the lower Myrtle Ave el safetly? What about the experimental Zepher & Bluebirds?
The Multi's could run on any of the elevateds since they were lightweight cars. So could the Zephyr and the Green Hornet.
#3 West End Jeff
The Multi's were 10 feet wide. Ditto for the other Zephyr, Green Hornet and Bluebirds. The lower Myrtle could take only 9 foot wide cars.
So a simple platform shaving was all that was needed? No problems with excessive weight?
May also have had problems with signals, station houses, etc.
I'm sure if the platforms were shaved on the lower portion of the Myrtle Ave. line the Multi's could have theoretically operated on that portion of the Myrtle Ave. El. On the other hand, other things could have gotten in the way.
#3 West End Jeff
It appeals to me that the antique construction of the lower myrtle might have caused clearance problems with the station houses.
It was not at all certain the lower myrt was going to be abandoned when the BUs were junked in favor of the Qs. If the platforms could have been trimmed without major work, it would have made much more sense to use the Multis than the Qs, at least after 1961, when the R27s started coming in.
Unfortunately the Multi's were retired after 1961 and subsequently scrapped.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, that's my point. The Qs substituted for the BUs in 1958. When the R27s made the Multis surplus in 1961 they could have been used on the lower Myrtle if it were possible to run 10' cars. At the time the Multis were only about 25 years old.
They were stupid when they scrapped the Multi's in 1961. If they were willing to shave the platforms on the lower Myrtle Ave. El at that time there would have been more "modern" cars running on it for at least a few more years.
#3 West End Jeff
However, by 1961, the Multis were suffering badly from deferred maintenance, and were in much worse shape than the Qs, which, by the way, were essentially rebuilt from the ground up in 1938, so in a sense, they were newer than the Multis by a couple of years.
-- Ed Sachs
If I'm not mistaken, they were having some problems with the brakes on the Multi's from accounts that I've read about them.
#3 West End Jeff
NO PROBLEM! We ran R1/9's also. No brakes, no problem. That's what DOOR CUTOUTS were for! :)
The door cutouts were the "Emergency Brakes" in a sense.
#3 West End Jeff
Heh. So was standing in the doorway if they opened up anyway. :)
Interesting "Emergency Brakes" to say the least.
#3 West End Jeff
Well ... they USUALLY stopped where you wanted them to ... :)
How about the times they didn't stop. That DID happen on occasion.
#3 West End Jeff
HEY! You busta my balls ... yeah, sometimes they didn't ... but when we DIDN'T raise command in a dead spot, I'd open the door after dropping a few switches, step into the car after the long buzz and say "sorry folks, this train's out of service - please exit this car to the NEXT car - EVERYBODY off ...
There would usually be 5-8 people left who would provide that MTA "free dumb look" we'd hear so much about ... to those geese once the car cleared, would come the NEXT level of "customer service" ... "I suppose you didn't hear this - We've had a MAJOR brake failure and this train is out of service - you're lucky you weren't KILLED ... DAMN lucky! This train is out of service and going to the yards. For those who STILL didn't get the message, it was - "there's a bomb." Didn't impress the geese either. Wonder for WHY my attitude? :)
Maybe we could put Osama Bin Laden on a train with NO brakes and no operator. Then let the train roll somewhere in the yard and bump into something. Then if were lucky he can be knocked unconscious at the very least.
#3 West End Jeff
They could have been overhauled, like some Standards were in 1959/60. I'd think metal cars would be preferable to what were essentially 50 yo wooden cars.
They had some SOUL and didn't require platform shavings to platforms that were already pretty narrow in the middle of the el to begin with. The lower MYRT was pretty much THIN island platforms to begin with. I remember them ... they were too narrow with the Q's on them ...
The Myrtle el platforms don't look any more narrower than the current J platforms over Fulton St:
TRUE ... but if the Q's weren't *IRT* width, those platforms would have really made ya think about giving up your lunch ... REMEMBER that the Q's were IRt width, not BMT width and thus you had a little over a foot of platform width than you would have ended up with if they were shaved for Multis ...
If the stations were converted to BMT width, the platforms would have to be shaved back a grand total of 6 inches on each side.
Yep ... since they're island platforms, they'd be one foot narrower across ... and those platforms weren't terribly wide in the first place since they occupied a trackwidth had the el been a three-tracker like the IRT el's we're used to today.
That platform hardly seems to be so narrow that a foot difference would be noticable. We're not talking a high-capacity line here. But as others said, shaving the platforms would mean that the station houses would have to be narrowed as well.
No, but having USED the Myrt myself, the platforms WERE narrower than many others elsewhere in the system. You'd NOTICE it ...
If the Multis were too wide for the lower Myrtle, Lexington and 5th Ave Els, how were the Green Hornet, Zephyr and #8000 Bluebird able to navigate the entire Fulton St. El? I also read that a Multi ran its entire length in non-revenue service just after delivery in 1936. Weren't portions of the FS El built to carry the BMT Standards from Nostrand to Atlantic Aves? That being said, the rest of the line dated back to the nineteenth century.
Carl M.
Carl: When the C-Types were placed in service the platforms on the Fulton Street El were cut back to accomadate 10 foot wide cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, parts of the Fulton St. el were upgraded in anticipation of the Ashland Place connection being built. It never was. The portion used by A trains today was an extension of the original route and was built to subway standards right from the start.
I'm not sure the Myrt couldn't have been altered to accomodate the Multis, my question is whether the station houses, and not just the platforms, would have had to have been altered.
The Fulton Street Line was differently constructed than the Myrtle or Lex. It had mostly side platform stations and the station houses were not adjacent to the trackways. Also, the BMT had much greater incentive to go to the expense and trouble of making alterations to operate wider (therefore more commodious and modern) equipment on the Fulton Street Line since that was its second "bread-and-butter" line after the Brighton.
And it was intended to be converted to subway usage with the connection to Dekalb Ave anyway.
The entire Fulton St el was rebuilt to handle 10' cars, right?
Yes. Park Row to Lefferts.
As a matter of fact, they upgraded a portion of the Fulton St. El so that it could handle the BMT Standards. Unfortunately their efforts never came to fruit as the connection at Gold St. that would have connected the Fulton St. El to the DeKalb Ave. station was never built.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm trying to imagine the nightmare Dekalb Ave would be had the BMT got all it's lines approved:
1. Brighton express
2. Brighton local
3. Fulton St (i'm assuming 2 routes due to the traffic this line handled)
4. West End
5. Sea Beach
6. Culver
7. Staten Island
8. Fourth Ave local
How on earth would Dekalb Ave be able to handle all this traffic?
It is daunting, but once upon a time handling a number of lines through a complex interlocking seemed to be manageable.
True, but I don't see being able to operate 9 different routes through Dekalb Ave. even back then. I think the traffic would limit headways on all lines to levels that would seriously overcrowd everything.
I'm sure that DeKalb would have been able to handle the extra traffic from the Fulton St. El if the connection was built.
#3 West End Jeff
Christ R27-R30 lists the fullest BMT route proposals through DeKalb. In the 1950s, rush hour service was quite busy. Using BMT route numbers, these nine services operated:
1. Brighton Express, Local, Special
2. Fourth Avenue Local, Special
3. West End Express, Local
4. Sea Beach Express
5. Culver Express
In the morning Brighton Specials, Fourth Avenue Specials, West End Expresses, Sea Beach Expresses, and Culver Expresses all skipped DeKalb. In the evening, Brighton Specials couldn't skip DeKalb, but all the others skipped it.
Busy place. Even during the night, there were Brighton locals (via Bridge or Tunnel, depending on the hour), Fourth Avenue locals, West End expresses, Sea Beach expresses (Sea Beach skipped 24 hours a day), and Culver locals. Not much there now at night--two services instead of five? No wonder so few ride there anymore.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed,
I don't rememberthe Brighton specials skipping DeKalb in the TA era. They would have had to pass the platforms at DeKalb without stopping, since there was no access to/from Brighton to the bypass tracks, either before or after the DeKalb reconfiguration.
Paul Matus writes,
>I don't remember the Brighton specials skipping DeKalb in the TA era. >They would have had to pass the platforms at DeKalb without stopping, >since there was no access to/from Brighton to the bypass tracks,
>either before or after the DeKalb reconfiguration.
Northbound, there was a bypass connection and the Brighton specials skipped DeKalb on that track. The bypass track was probably the first piece of track to be removed for the DeKalb rebuilding. The space needed to be rebuilt so the Brighton would have access to both tracks at the DeKalb platform. I wonder if the current track switch that provides that access might not be the same one that was in place in pre-rebuild days. If I hadn't ridden it a few times, I might have had doubts. (My regular train was the Fourth Avenue Special during the '50s, though I also used the other three expresses on Fourth Avenue. One of the most frustrating things would be to be looking out the railfan window after leaving Pacific and having to wait for the Brighton Special as it pulled in ahead of us.)
On the southbound side of DeKalb, I don't think the bypass tracks were ever connected to the Brighton track. There always seemed to be all sorts of stuff piled up there.
It's still interesting to me that except for longer platforms and losing Myrtle Avenue station, all that DeKalb did was to move the delays from the northern end of DeKalb to the south, but with both sides of the bridge operating, there were still delays coming off the bridge.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Late in 1959 the TA decided to "Rebuild" Standards in the 2400,2500,2600 and 2700 series. The 2400 series incorporated the 4000 series BX trailers. They were numbered
2400-4000-2401 thru 2498-4049-2499. Beginning in late 1960 the BX trailers were removed from these units. 2400 thru 2467 received an "A" motor in place of the former trailer. Cars were now numbered 2400-2615-2401 thru 2466-2649-2467 . 2615-2649 accounts for 35 cars but there were only 34 sets. This was because at least on 2600 had been scrapped by this time but I don't know which one. 2468-2499 were coupled into two car sets and called "BT's". Note that from about 1924 to 1927 2480-2499 had operated as two car BT sets.
The first BT to reappear in service was 2470-2471 and was in service by January 1961.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So that means there were some rebuilt single A units.
ALL the single A units in the 2600 and 2700 series were rebuilt. Some were incorporated with the 2400s to make new B units, and the rest remained A units.
>>ALL the single A units in the 2600 and 2700 series were rebuilt<<
And let's not forget #2899, the only 2800 series Standard to be rebuilt. #2899 was coupled with # 2774 and #2775. #2775 as we know is in retirement in the Nutmeg State !
Bill "Newkirk"
And appears to be the only surviving Pressed Steel square-deck-roof Standard left.
Unless there's one sitting in a field somewhere as a chicken condo.
>>Unless there's one sitting in a field somewhere as a chicken condo.<<
You know Paul, funny you should mention that. I was always thinking of a BMT Standard body being used as a chicken coop on a farm un New Jersey not far from New York.
I based this on a legend that when the Standards were being scrapped and their bodies were being cut up, only one Standard #2321 was shipped whole. The legend is that the truck with the car body was followed but only part of the way. Something about taking a different turn as opposed to the correct one that would have taken it to Sarnelli's. Someone else on this board mentioned that too a year ago, so, that's two sources I heard this from.
Bill "Newkirk"
Shipped whole "to" or "from" Sarnelli's? I remember most of the Standards sitting in Sarnelli's were initially one piece.
Either way, maybe we'll turn up a pic of a "lost" Standard some day. It's a shame that it seems just about every variant of an R1/9 was saved, but you can't make up a full-length train or either Standards ot Triplexes. Well, close on the Triplex, but no cigar.
There may be some pieces lying around of scrapped equipment, but I don't know of any listing. I once saw a pic of the center section of a Triplex sitting near the roadside somewhere.
Unfortunately, I didn't pay attention to car numbers as well as marker lights in the olden days, so I don't know if I ever saw any A units on the Canarsie line.
Was there any special name for that speckled green color paint that they used for the interiors of the rebuilt Standards. I remember (as a very young child, of course!) wondering how they got the paint to be that way.
Patterson green, I think it was called (named for 1950s TA Chairman Charles Patterson?).
David
Did some of the redbirds have the same interior. I seem to remember some R-21's with it....Was that the failed automated shuttle cars ?
HartBus:
Good to hear from you. The cars that you are thinking about are R-22's 7515-7524 which were the last ten built. They had a rigidized aluminum interior and used a dark green plextone paint. They also tested the pink fibreglass seats that became standard on R-26,27,28,30,30A. They always seemed to be very dark cars and the dark green paint clashed with the pink seats. (Some will say the color is coral).
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
It wasn't "Patterson Green," that was the non-speckled color.
It was some kind of new invention in paint, in which the speckles and squibbles were formulated in such a way that it could be applied with a spray can. It had some kind of trade name liek "Plexiflo" or something. Maybe I'm being influenced by remembering "Axiflow," which were those fans on the pre-AC Welch equipment which tried to make up for the lack of adequate air exchange by blasting you with megavolumes of warm air.
The spray-on speckled paint which was popular in the 50s went
by the brand name of Zolotone
Oh, but after reading Bill's post, the name Plextone sounds
more familiar as the original brand name.
Our house in South Bend had that paint originally on the interior walls. It was white with black speckles.
Besides the Standards, I also remember seeing the same speckled paint scheme on the interiors of the Steinway Low-V's the one time I rode them on the 3rd ave. el during the 60's. Definately worlds removed from the old Interborough dark green.
There were also ten of the R-22's on the IRT with the speckled green interiors...cars 7515 through 7524. They came from St. Louis this way -- they also had different storm door windows than the rest of the R-22's.
I believe the paint was called "Zolatone". Anyone???
>>> I'm being influenced by remembering "Axiflow," which were those fans on the pre-AC Welch equipment which tried to make up for the lack of adequate air exchange by blasting you with megavolumes of warm air <<<
I remember when the R-15 made its debut I thought the Axiflow fans were air conditioning. After a few trips on hot July days I quickly learned what a mistake that was, and thereafter tried to ride in an R-12 where I could position myself in front of one of the small fans.
Tom
The R-15 roofs did not have the ventilation holes for the axleflow fans that the R-16 through R-40 trains did. Visually, the R-15 roofs looked a lot like the roofs on the ACed trains from the experimental R-38s on up, but once you walked inside, especially between May and September, the problem was obvious.
>>Was there any special name for that speckled green color paint that they used for the interiors of the rebuilt Standards.<<
Plextone
Bill "Newkirk"
They would have had to have more platforms at Dekalb. But still, there would have been only 6 tracks (3 N + 3 S) further on.
I'm sure that they would have needed more platforms at DeKalb if they had connected the Fulton St. El to the subway at DeKalb Ave. They also might have tried longer platforms also.
#3 West End Jeff
I guess I would have preferred the Qs to the Multis, but by the time they IRT-ized them with the IRT (composite?) trucks, they were sloooowwww. Made the 1300s look nimble by comparison. I remember ordinary (non railfan) riders complaining.
Point is, I'd prefer the Multis with the Myrt running than what we got: NO BUs No Multis No Qs No L.
As to the shaving, the Myrt had the stationhouse and controls at platform level on island platforms and, IIRC, there was not a whole lot of clearance with the BUs and Qs. 10-footing-it might have required redoinf the station houses.
As an aside, they did redo the station houses maybe around 1960 or so. Took out the potbelly stoves, the pretty windows and any decoration that the stations had, but I don't think they did any major structural.
Yeah, can't argue there ... what I *liked* about them though was that they were made of WOOD when everything else was metal. To a lover of the old such as myself, it was almost like bring brought back to the old west, riding in wooden cars with wooden storm door and all ... and yes, they DID look much better before the Queens modifications. But like the LoV's, it was STILL nice to have them at all ...
Was a ride on a wooden car that much different than a metal car? What made it different?
Completely different feel. They had a warmth and ride qualities you don't get in a steel car. Solid. Dependable. Human. Especially as compared to current equipment.
Like the difference between driving a Ford Bronco or a Saturn on a snowy day.
And the big thrill was the WOOD ... the BMT had this penchant also for a nice dark green paint with gold-like "flecks" in it. WOOD storm door, wood frames, wood seats ... there was just a nice "warmth" to it all as opposed to cold steel. Granted, they were old and "rickety" but there was a major CHARM to it ... an emotional thing more than practical. They were just plain "cool" ...
And when your wood L train was sitting quietly* in a terminal on a stormy day, the car groaned and creaked like a comfy old house or a wooden sailing ship.
*And there's another point, when old cars (not just the wooden ones, but more so with them, it seemed) sat quietly, they SAT QUIETLY. No constant whirs and noises from the climate control system, and announcements, and sterile brightness. You could hear that old storm blow, until the lights dimmed and the compressor cut in with a gentle thump, thump, thump.
I'm think I'm gonna cry...
Yep ... that was all part of it too ... and when you were on the R1/9's and there weren't any LEAKS in the brake pipe to keep the compressors running, they could be pleasantly quiet TOO. Even more so if all the motors were dead. :)
But if you had a bunch of dead motors, you had a sluggish train.
!!!DUH!!! (as one of our car inspector managers would have said in one form or another. Heh.)
Words CANNOT descibe the NIGHT AND PHARKING DAY difference I saw on my trip to fun city as to how it WAS and how it IS today ... Train Dude and all you other CI's and former RCI's on the system TODAY. I'm so PROUD of how the system is today that I would GRATEFULLY do a Monica for you ALL but I'm too butt ugly to offer ... heh.
Seriously, given how the subways were in *MY* day, anyone who complains about a DAMNED THING has earned my official "huh?" You don't KNOW how bad it WAS ... SERIOUSLY ... MTA is EXTREMELY better than it was ... in OH so many ways ...
Chris: If you get a chance come up to Branford either on Member's Day or the Autumn in New York Weekend. Both steel and wood rapid transit cars will be operating and you'll be able to compare them.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Qs may have been slow, but I recall that they ran rather smooth and quiet, maybe better than the Standards. Certainly more smooth and quiet than R1-9s. The BMT knew how to build them!
Don't remember how the Multi's rode, unfortunately.
-- Ed Sachs
what I *liked* about them though was that they were made of WOOD
Ahhhh, yes. The era of "Wooden Cars and Iron Men" to borrow a phrase from a long ago Transit Magazine article. That same article ridiculed the men who worked the new push-button interlocking machines as eating "nutted cheese sandwiches" a reference to Chock Full O'Nuts flagship offering.
I guess REAL MEN didn't eat at Chock Full O'Nuts ;-)
Nosirree ... it was either Nathan's or Twin Dognuts ... :)
You gave me another chilling thought here ... I remember the days when the IRT station houses on the Broadway Local had FRANKLIN stoves in the station houses, WORKING toilets (ladies and gents) and SEATS INSIDE the station houses near the stoves that burned COAL ... there was electric heat also, but in the winter, the STOVES got fired up and IRT flatcars dumped off coal bin loads each morning before rush.
You obviously remember when stationhouses were where geese gathered, actually conversed with those they knew from the daily grind and there was plenty of time hearing the train coming in and getting to the doors before they opened to a warm train as well. And THIS was the IRT ... *ALL* of that went away when the damned red (actually DARK green) birds replaced the LoV's ...
Not only the IRT had coal stoves. I remember coal stoves in the station houses on the BMT Brighton line -- replaced by electric heaters in the 1950s.
As for the color of the R-type birds, some of them were originally red (R15, R17, R29, and R33 mainline).
-- Ed Sachs
Different shades of red, anyway. The R-29s and R-33s were tartar red. The R-17s were maroon. Were the R-15s originally the same maroon color as the R-17s? I know they has a yellow band below the belt rail.
This is the oldest R15 pic i could find on this site. Looks like maroon underneath all that crud:
>>> Looks like maroon underneath all that crud: <<<
The R-15's when they arrived on the Flushing line were definitely maroon, which was a change of color and roof line from the existing R-12 equipment.
Tom
Whoops ... pressed "send" too fast in my end of nightshift "I'se done until this evening" ... where I was going with the whole IRT thing is that when the R17's and up came in, all of the old "El charm" died on the traditional IRT ... when I moved east to "Norwood" in 1969, there was the 3rd avenue el which brough BACK all that had been lost in the 50's and 60's on the mainline IRT ... wooden this and that, the "old sound" and a bucolic trainride that already appealed to a kid who was lucky enough to have parents who owned a country place up where I live now that I was able to "summer at" before returning home. The 3rd avenue el had that feel I enjoyed growing up with the IRT. When the LoV's *and* the 3rd avenue were chopped down, I lost my very last link to the older times.
When the 3rd avenue line got replaced with R12's, I gravitated to the Myrtle, the Culver and anyplace else you could find older cars. The Canarsie with the standards whose whistles would shriek like a woman being attacked (the whistles I remember were just like a screech) was just about the end of the line once the Myrt closed ... wherever I could find any remaining "oldies," I "fanned" just to take it all in - same love for the Franklin, whose stations were among the oldest and most delapidated remaining on the system after the Culver shut down ...
UNTIL I got to work at the TA on the last remaining old cars that I knew, the R1/9'ers ... boy, did I *jump* at that gig although the only jobs left as conductor or as motorman was those split shifts ... but there's my yayas ... the subway was a LOT more fun back in those days. May have been natty as fark, but it still had some *soul* ...
So for anyone who shakes their head when I whine about "toasters on wheels" or "subway's working great but has no soul" ... you'll have a way of relating to what I feel. The subway had CHARM even if it was inefficient at only 36 TPH or it still runs just the same today as it used to in an age of high-tech equipment, the last few posts ought to provide a few anchor points for "boy is THIS guy twisted." :)
That's what I was thinking. But this would've required minimal modifications to every lower Myrtle Ave. station. Unthinkable in the late 1950's. It had to be left to rot and die!
In researching this issue I found that WABCO used an experimental
brake control package on the MS cars. It put Rube Goldberg to
shame. I came across some internal WABCO gossip about the braking
problems on these cars. There were numerous failure modes that
could result in loss or severe degradation of service braking.
I can only imagine what the multis would have done on the CPW express dash. They would have put the R-10s to shame.
As much as the Multi's were wunderkindren, they'd have blown a FUSE on the IND ... the multis were built for the BMT's "well, it was 550 when the squirrels sent it down the main, but it's likely 330 where YOU are" the multis may have been rocks on socks on the IND, but I'd worry about the breaker panels surviving the trip back. :)
GREAT cars, mind ya ... built like tanks, but the BMT Corporation was MIGHTY jealous about the construction of the R-1's and USED them to a point where the "testing" broke even on costs according to what's ben posted recently. The R1's were SERIOUS traction when they were first built ... and TAKEN seriously almost until the days when I worked 'em.
They had a rugged feel to them, that's fur sure. I mentioned once before that I got a big kick out of the indents on their door exteriors. When that first AA train I ever rode on pulled into 42nd St. on May 7, 1967, I was seriously tempted to take hold of those indents and pull on the doors before they opened. I didn't do it. Once we boarded, I just soaked it all in - the moans, groans, grunts, snarls, and hisses. Not to mention the ever-present throbbing compressors. The bottom line was, I was back on the subway - and loving every minute of it (we had just moved to Jersey a few weeks before).
Once upon a time, subway cars LET YOU KNOW beyond any reasonable doubt that they were MACHINES ... subway cars have since been turned into "touchy feely I'm really a limousine toasters on wheels" which kinda denigrates the experience as far as I'm concerned ... but once upon a time, those hissing, snarling behemoths once said, "I'll get you there" ...
I was quite impressed though on my visit how much the subway cars with all the personality of an AOL chat room are doing, and well ... still, I'd rather incandescent light and the grunts and the hissing. Then again, I ain't a well person and a PROUD member of the Luddite Church. :)
Would you settle for a snarling R-10 with blinking flourescent lights and buzzing bracket fans, rocking and rolling its way along the Fulton IND or up the CPW dash? That's an experience I will always remember and treasure, being sonically trashed and thrashed - METAL MACHINE MUSIK. The sound of steel on steel.
wayne
Settled for it often joyously ... ANYTHING but sealed toasters on wheels with a ride like a bus. :)
Or screaming past Sutphin Blvd., leaving passengers on the platform to ask, "What's that A train doing HERE?!?"
My experiences with the R1/9s began in 1967. I was never sure about "I'll get you there". They seemed ready to call it quits with every stop, moanin' and groanin' when they did get started.
I never got the impression the R-1/9s would croak when they stopped. They were lovable living, breathing, snarling, hissing, throbbing monsters.
Lovable to you, Steve. Lovable to me when I'd see them on the C, E, F, and G. Not on my line.
I loved those cars, period. Unless, of course, I happened to be on an E train between 42nd and 14th Sts. The D still comes to mind first whenever I think of them. It must be because the very first IND train I ever rode on was a prewar D on April 30, 1967.
The odd thing was I rode on those oldtimers more on the LL than all of my IND rides on them combined.
And they were brute force, especially with a GE R-6-2 in the lead. The R-6-2 put the RAPID in rapid transit.
wayne
All you needed with ANY of them was a few working motors. :)
Good point. Wayne got an F train once headed by 1233 which got up to A-440 on the Union Turnpike-Parsons Blvd. stretch. That's flat out flying. That train probably had no bad motors. OTOH he was on a solid R-4 D train in 1970 which did a death march over the Manhattan Bridge. I hear the crew very nearly said, "Everybody out and push!":-)
Then there was that solid R-1 B train which was falling apart but really moved along 4th Ave.
Yep ... every day on the road was a "how's our kharma?" event ... sometimes they went, sometimes ALL the timers were green down the bridge, made me CRAZY trying to figure out how to work'em when my consist clearly DIDN'T ... couldn't let it gain too much speed or there'd be a brown alert on the right-hand ... as I've said many times, the bridge scared the crap out of me downhill because you could never be sure of what you HAD or you DIDN'T back in my days ... it was ALWAYS a white knuckle ride ...
That's why I *enjoyed* recent rants of "how to work the timers on the Manny" ... that you weren't extracted from a pile of rubble in my OWN day was its OWN reward. You no screw with the ghods of grade timing back in MY day ... :)
There were folks who worked them that knew how to make them go ... except when a wheel fell off of course. :)
I'm sure, Selkirk, that you knew how to make them go. Only because of you and others like yourself did they ever make it out of the yards in the morning. I sure would have preferred to see you in a Brightliner, though.
I did a couple of them on an occasional run ... they reminded me too much of IRT equipment actually ... I preferred the older ladies. They were EASY. :)
Don't tell me that happened to you too. Let's see - you had a step plate break off under your foot once, then a control box fell onto your lap.....
Heh ... we DID have a wheel break - lemme see ... CAULEY WHEELS if Train Dude FINALLY made that event STICK in my meatrom ... lost a foot plate, yeah ... but now that I *finally* met face to face with the ACTUAL EQUIPMENT again in HeyPaul's personal bunker, what happened is merly the COVER opened in my lap ... sorry, but after the horrors of school car, BROWN ALERT!!!
While the RCI laughed in my face as he closed the cover that had opened when the whole freaking STAND fell in my pants, I honestly didn't know the difference between the 36 volts applied to my ZIPPER and the 600 behind my hat that gave me brain damage ... all I could fathom at the moment was that my pants were:
a) wet
b) sparking
You decide ... :)
With all that, it's unbelievable that you have FOND memories of the R1/9.
I actually do ... many of us can also remember owning automobiles that were hell on earth too, but since we no longer have them, somehow they improved with age. :)
I would love to be on hand if and when you see 1689 at Shoreline.:-)
There was an E train at 42nd St. once which started squealing like a sea gull when the motorman applied power. I almost ducked for cover.
>>> They seemed ready to call it quits with every stop, moanin' and groanin' when they did get started. <<<
If moaning and groaning when getting started bothered you, you must have had a very dull sex life. :-)
Tom
Heh. I've been a BAD influence. :)
With so much being said about the BMT Multi trains, my memory was jogged a little. A couple of years before we left New York I remember getting on a train at 42nd Street which my dad was the Sea Beach. I couldn't believe it because it looked nothing like the Triplex I was used to riding. Was the Multi ever used on the Sea Beach?
They probably did end up out there ... alas, I only joyrided the SeaBits every now and then as a kid and wasn't terribly mindful of what was rolling. Hopefully one of the Brooklynites here might know. I wouldn't be surprised though if they were there ...
Interesting that someone mentions the Multi's running on the Sea Beach.I don't think that ever happened to the best of my knowledge unless I'm mistaken. Maybe it was a train of BMT "Standards" since they occasionally ran on the Sea Beach Line. The only other type of car that could have operated would have been the "Zephyr" or perhaps the R-11.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, it wasn't a standard that I rode that time. I knew what they looked like. BTW, I still have this cough, though, and it is a pain in the ass. It just hangs on. As for the Multis, let's hope someone can give me the real low down.
Fred: I guess you really don't want those two hot dogs that I offered to buy you at Nathan's. Regarding your question about a strange train at 42 Street-Times Square I assume that you are talking about the Contract IV Broadway Line and not the original pneumatic subway run by Al Beach.
Since it was not a sub-Standard or a Triplex it may have been a Bluebird. The five production Bluebirds were placed in service on March 5,1941 and usually were on the #2 Fourth Avenue Local and occasionally on the #1 Brighton Local. The July 1,1943 car assingment lists them as being on the #2. Later it was transfered to the #16.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
"I R T" Where we still have the "RAPID" in rapid transit.
Thanks Redbird. I guess it will remain somewhat of a mystery. It could be a Multi was temporarily given to the Sea Beach for a day or two during rush time or something like that. I don't know. I only know that I remember telling my dad that it looked like a different train to me and was he sure it was the Sea Beach? It is wierd that all of sudden a couple of posts could trigger a memory search that I didn't think I had.
If it had cushy seats and a blue exterior with only a destination sign up front, it was a Bluebird.
A picture in Greller's book shows it on the Brighton local, but IIRC, it was a Brighton-Franklin #7.
From another post that I read you might have actually ridden on some R-1/9s that were running on the BMT in 1952. This is not surprising in light of the persistant car shortages in the BMT division at the time.
#3 West End Jeff
A number of R-1/9s were transferred from the IND to the BMT when the R-10s arrived in 1948, mostly used on the Fourth Ave. Local (#2, now R) line. This alleviated some of the car shortages on the BMT, and provided the extra equipment necessary to extend BMT subway service from Queensboro Plaza to Ditmars Blvd. in 1949. They mostly went back to the IND when the R16s came in 1954, but a few lingered on until '58 or '59.
-- Ed Sachs
I wonder if those conductors who worked on the R-1s found themselves clamoring for BMT standards. OTOH the 4th Ave. local was mostly, if not entirely, underground.
No compulsion here ... I rode standards every here and there and didn't really think all that much of them. I guess it's just because they weren't familiars in the Bronx like the 1/9's were ... now had I seen the MULTIS, that'd be a different story. I did like the Q's.
Did it have signs up front? The multis were stored on the Sea Beach express tracks after being condemned.
Geez ... let's really do it to Unca Fred, telling him that the SeaBits is where trains go to die. Way to go, bro ...
Selkirk, you are one of a kind---THANK GOD!!!!!! Now why would you go and say a thing like dad for? The Sea Beach (not seabits you turkey) signifies like and a breath of fresh air, not death and stagnation? Are you sure you're not director of the MTA? Come on now, and straighten up and fly right or I'll sabotage your cabin.
Fred, old buddy ... you gotta *FIND* de cabin. Hint, two snowplows went off the road and today, a frontloader came in. IT TOO went into the gulch so we're still snowed in up here. *WE* own the road, so it's all our problem. Word is they're going to try an earthmover in the morning. Big Caterpillar thingy. Ouch. So yeah, you're welcome to personally come on out and wring some neck if ya wanna. Limited time offer, void where prohibited by ice. :)
So this is my reward for warning Steve that he went too far about calling da CBits line a "train graveyard" and you wanna piece of me, huh? Well ... when we came to the city, we were guests of some TA wigs who gave us carte blanche and were amused by our antics. And I even said nice things about your train too. Gotta write Larry back and retract my statements then. Heh.
No don't write Larry back and retract your statements but instead deliver it in person to him-----on foot. What the hell is going on up there? Are you isolating yourself like that old bomber who lived like a hermit? How many of you are up there and how close are you neighbors, and doesn't it get a wee bit boring? I'm worried about you friend. Seems to me you are becoming a hermit.
Heh. Only when it snows. :)
Here's the plot ... I live in an old railroad town which has several horse stables, a few dairy farms and all. If anything DOES go wrong, sheriff's office is about a half mile away and they use snowmobiles this time of year for crime, rescue or medical transport. Out here in the hills, it's all volunteer. Something goes wrong, we can all depend on one another. It goes down to 20 below once or twice a year and lingers near it for a quarter of it. Folks can die out here, so neighbors all watch out for one another. I contrast this with the years that I lived in the city and in suburban type environments where if you knew the person living next door, it's only because one of us called the cops on the other one. KIDDING! (but if you think about it, folks are a lot tighter knit out in the sticks)
I'm up on a hilltop overlooking the "village" on a half mile long road that I own that climbs up our hill. I own the entire northern facing half of the hill, and there's 6 folks on the other side facing south. They have their own road. Railroads cut the edges of the property and there's a power line on the west side and a substation at the bottom of the hill where my road connects to Rte 85A. I live in a ski chalet GLASS house ... sort of a modified A frame kinda thing with a shallow roof and two floors of a glass wall facing north. Surrounded by trees, we can prance around nekkid and nobody'd notice. So much for the "log cabin" heh.
We gots electricity, indoor plumbing, cable TV (though we chopped it and went for the bird bath ourselves), DSL, internet and acres upon acres of heavily forested land. Mowing in the summer's a beast but summer here is about four weeks. :)
What we don't have is busses or subways but then again, there's only about 2,000 folks in the entire surrounding area so it'd be a waste of money. But what we DO have up here is everybody in a five mile radius knows everybody else, we see each other down in the village, church, the post office, and the little village downtown where there's still nothing but locally-owned stores including an IGA supermarket and once again, everybody knows everybody else and we all look out for one another.
If I ever did slip a gear, they'd know THAT too ... you wouldn't hear things like "well, they seemed alright but a little aloof" ... nope, they'd all step up to the camera and say, "Oh Kevin and Nancy - yeah, they pantsed the mayor last New Years" ... or ... "those two ... yeah, NEVER leave a locomotive idling on their front lawn. You won't find it when you come back" and things of that nature. Wouldn't trade any of this for what I left and as to boring, really doesn't happen. Too many folks having fun, a good time and shooting the sheet. And if I get lonely, well ... there's always subtalk. My neighbors think we're sane though. Start worrying ... they're railroad folk. :)
I'll have to admit Kevin, it does sound like a good life. The only bummer is the weather. Yikes, it gets cold. Even when I lived in New York I was a bit of a pus. I just hated cold weather. But if you can take it and enjoy it, then go for it. Just keep the burner going.
You are still bit of a pus. The Bob N Fred Bob is back on the air after a 11 day vaCATION(mE MOVING AROUND THE CORNER)
Good to see you're back and that you're your usual self.
And now back to the Bob and Fred Show....:-)
I'll take cold over heat and humidity any day. And when the roads are clear (most of the time) you can get around and visit folks. HUGE Mall with Pottery Barn and other yuppie delights and a suburban type setting are only 10 miles to the northeast from here. Another reason why I'm out where I am. It IS nice here. :)
You can always play that bootleg CD to bring back fond memories of the good old days.:-)
Heh ... between that and BVE, I'm all set. :)
>>> the little village downtown where there's still nothing but locally-owned stores including an IGA supermarket <<<
Kevin;
I hope no one from Wal Mart read your post. :-)
Tom
If they did, they're welcome to come into town and "compete." We're from UPstate ... we gots guns. :)
BTW, while I never had a chance to talk to "Larry R" ... he DID make some amazing "arrangements" and had people waiting for us to arrive on their "platform" to "show us some treats" ... when I went to send the thank you letter, I *did* mention the condition of the SeaBeach (see? I *can be nice if I wanna) and will see what the response is. I was VERY pleased with the way our trip turned - had a WONDERFUL time going places and doing things that mere mortals are NOT permitted - especially after 911 ... came as a surprise to a few others who tagged along too apparently. Cab time? Heh.
Only shows to go ya, when someone from upstate decides to drop a kilobuck in the city (and a few pesos extra for political campaigns) the red carpet actually gets vacuumed. And living up here where you KNOW to warm your hands in your pants and apply "bag balm" before grabbing a cow for that warm milk that puts you to sleep, ain't a grumpy bone in my bod. Life is too good and thanks to the company of my fellow neighbors, ain't got no axes to grind. To me, a WONDERFUL place to be ... moo. :)
Selkirk: If you ever make it down here to the lower forty-eight I would be more than glad to buy you a couple of dogs and a brew at Nathan's. I guess Fred din't want to take me up on the offer.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred and I will take you up on that in October along with 8th Ave Steve
Bob: Friend still has to answer my question concerning the last run of the Triplexes. Please no help from the audience. BTW I'll be glad to meet you both but Fred buys his own dogs unless he comes up with the answer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred has probably forgotten the question.
Karl: Fred probably doesn't know the answer so he'll have to settle for some cold fries.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It's gang up time, I see. OK, my Sea Beach buddies, time to retaliate against those damn IRT and Brighton boys.
Fed,
"Can't we all just get along?"
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Fred, Larry was asking you if you knew when the Triplexes made their last run.
Larry drives a hard bargain.:-)
Frd: I see that you not only want to take on the whole IRT clan but the Brighton boys as well. You had better get some help from the West End gang and the Culver crowd.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I haven't heard from any of my Sea Beach, West End buddies, or Culver cohorts, so I will have to slip back into the mountains to regroup and wait for reinforcements.
Well I'm here #4 Sea Beach Fred. Ready to discuss the BMT Multi's or any other subway car of interest.
#3 West End Jeff
>>I haven't heard from any of my Sea Beach, West End buddies, or Culver cohorts, so I will have to slip back into the mountains to regroup and wait for reinforcements.<<
That's because you're being surrounded by Brighton Boys. Drop your handles and surrender !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. Should we tell him where we're hiding his boys? Nah. :)
Fred,
Hate to break the news to you, but I consider myself a BMT SOUTHERN DIVISION fan, with a very slight nod going to the West End and Brighton lines. Don't get me wrong, I would NEVER disparage the Sea Beach for "thou shall not speak ill of the BMT!" And as for the Culver; well, that is the reason I can actually like the R9s.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Had it not been for all those rides on the A in the late 60s, I would become a diehard Southern Division fan myself. I'm still an IND guy, but the Southern Division is still very, very special to me.
As a Bronx boy, it was the IRT or the IND. BMT was NOT an option up my way ... but thanks to the D train, I got to love the southern division's tracks. open cuts, tunnelage and els. Never thought much of the Stillwell TWU contingent nor much of the geese when I worked the Brighton line ... though there were OFTEN treats among the geese which made it all balance out. As to the "Stillwell boys" on the railroad though, that's why I was a proud renegade among the "rank and file" faction in TWU 100 ... much to the dismay of the "regulars" ...
But yes, "southie" was home to me as well based on my pick ... though as a nonemployee, I did kinda like the eastern division a WHOLE lot better based on the trainfoamer bits ...
Selkirk: In think you know that deep in the recesses of your heart you know that the BMT rules, and your flowery verbiage to the contrary will not fool any of us. The BMT rules and always has. The IRT? Simply small potatoes. The IND? Nowhere.
Fred: The IRT was small potatoes? That'ss mighty strong talk from a man who lives on the wrong side of the San Andreas Fault. At its height the BMT only managed to serve a group of off-shore islands. The IRT with its five elevated lines was the largest rapid transit system in the world and that was BEFORE we built the subway. The IRT was up and running for three years on Ninth Avenue while you guys were still experimenting with hot air on Broadway. The IRT penetrated right into downtown Brooklyn with its Contract II Mainline.The BMT never dared to show its face in The Bronx.(Even the Dodgers got there eventually). You would not have gotten to see the World's Fair if it hadn't been for the IRT.
The IRT always knew what it was, a heavy duty rapid transit high speed railroad. The BMT never could make up its mind if it wanted to operate ten foot wide cars or nine foot wide cars or if it wanted to be a rickety el line or a summer only tourist ride.
IRT trains regularly ran with three trailers. Those hulking standards that you talk about were scared to take one BX trailer over the Manhattan Bridge.
And what about that hotel that you guys built down in Brighton. Not only did the trains come into the lobby but so did the Atlantic Ocean at high tide.
Don't think that I haven't been watching you take pot shots at the IRT and The Bronx. There is a reason for Yankee Stadium having so many championship flags that people mistake it for the UN.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, you got be cold. I have taken pot shots at the Bronx and the IRT, but not malicious attacks. The BMT never went into the Bronx because it didn't need to or want to. When you have Brooklyn why the hell would you want the Bronx. The Bronx is not a good pimple on Brooklyn's nose, and besides, have you lost your marbles? Can you even in jest compare the BMT's Triplex to those decrepit looking Low V's. The lv's had no identity and no pizazz. The BMT went into Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan. What else was needed. The IRT was big in the Bronx with their elevated trains, but except for one line never the light of day in Brooklyn, keeping itself hidden in the hidden rat infested reaches of the underground. The Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, and West End ruled Brooklyn and still does. The 2, 4, 5, and 3? The leftovers.
BTW, I hope you are taking all this in fun. It's good to go manno manno with a class guy.
Now now ... pot shots at Da Bronx is only inviting me to tell you what a "hot lunch" is ... let's not go there. :)
Heh. I'm not big on interborough ribaldry since we're all one city these days, but BRAVO ... a misty tear from a Bronx boy who doesn't care much for Steingrabber and roots for the Meats ... (sniff)
A Mets fan makes you stand real tall with me, so I am again stating that I am leaving the Bronx and the IRT alone. But, hey Kevim, all in good fun. OK? And stop calling my train the Seabits/ It sounds like some kind of cookie that has no taste to it.
Heh. I be good then ... and yes, sharing a birthday with Irish Ranting Transport ... well, you've got your own cross to bear. :)
Fred: I'm not mad at you. I simply put your rantings down to the ravings of an off-shore islander. Look at all the great stuff that we have in The Bronx; the New York Zoological Park aka The Bronx Zoo, Edgar Allen Poe's House (Remember The Raven and the Nevermores?)and the world famous Bronx Riviera aka Orchard Beach.
Now I have had soon kind words to say about Brooklyn, not to mention the Triplexes and the Duplicates.
You really must vist the mainland the next time that you come east of the Mississippi.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
HEY, My mudder was born in da Bronx. I don't wanna hear anybuddy saying trash about da Bronz!
Even tho' Brooklyn is bedder!
Paul: Don't tell Fred but I actually did live in Brooklyn for a few months after I got out of the Air Force back in 1968. I married a Bronx girl,naturally and moved back to the mainland.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I won't say one is better than the other...they're both great boroughs...I'm a Bronx Boy, but I'll tell ya...Brooklyn's got the other half of my heart.....
J=Train: You can have it both ways nowadays, that is, loyalty to two boroughs like the Brooklyn and the Bronx. Believe me, however, when I tell you that 50 years ago such a dual loyalty would have been impossible. Remember the Yankees and the Dodgers? That alone put Brooklyn in a catatonic state when the Brooklynites, or their supporters, heard the words The Bronx. Today many people in Brooklyn root for the Yankees so it isn't nearly as big a stigma as it once was. If you read some of my posts you will notice that I take a few swipes at the Bronx at different intervals. My wife says psychologically it goes back to my childhood and my hatred of the Yankees which carries on to this day.
That I will---and I will bring Brighton Express Bob and Steve 8AVEXP with me, butI will need more backup than that. So I expect you and Selkirk, if he can tear himself away from his role of "Man in the Wildernes", to come down and make it a fivesome. Maybe we can a few of my other buddies who were with me last April 1 to come, too. I get the feeling I'm not too popular in the Bronx and the fact is one guy even kill-filed me. Is it a deal?
If I can pay off the bank for my last foray and your buddies in DC don't shut down Amtrak, I'm game ... but if Amtrak gets deep-sixed (and it looks like it's done) there's no ox-carts between hither and yon and we'll all have to learn to sing "Oh Canada" up here. :)
Heh. What can I tell ya, pallie ... I'm a Bronx boy. No BMT in da Bronx, we were denied its essence. so for us, it was the little tin cans of the IRT or the BIG tin cans of the IND ... but I sure did get to like the Brighton line when I worked it, rode the SeaBits once or twice when they had it running, but stuck in my own culture at the other end of Madhattan. I figure if the BMT was too timid to come north, then they was afraid of us. :)
Timid? Nah. But since you and Redbird are still my buddies I am ceasing and desisting with this culumny against the IRT and the Bronx as long as you guys leave my Sea Beach alone. But get this, the anniversary of the IRT in October 27, 1904. I was born October 27, 1940. I may even be an IRT man and not know it. How's that for irony?
Bob has been conspicuously absent from this thread...:-)
He is just moved and got a new job. He's putting in a lot of overtime and the move resulted in extra work that he didn't anticipate. Don't worry, he goes in spurts and will be back on soon. He E-Mailed me the other day and all is ok. I'll tell him you posted on his absence. As soon as he hears Sea Beach Fred is ranting about his train again, the Bob and Fred show will resume.
Mark your calendar for the week of October 13. I will be in the city then.
God willing, so will I. Is this a go? And how long will you be in New York? If there is time to do some railfanning and other things, let me know. I will make it to the city for sure----and drag Bob in if I have to.
My usual routine is to fly in on Monday (Oct. 14th in this case), stay in the city Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, then head up to Connecticut around midday on Friday, with a return flight to Denver on Sunday. One day is set aside to spend at my sister's in Jersey. At this point, I would say this is all tentative, as anything can happen between now and then; however, the dates are definite.
Can't wait to witness the Bob and Fred Show in the flesh!
Did I read the last few posts corrctly. Are both #4 Sea Beach Fred and Steve B-8 Av Exp coming to New York in October. That really will be the occasion for a sub-tlak field trip.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Last October a small group of us were able to link up mid-week. We did a 3 boro field trip (Main Street to Coney Island). They missed a Red Bird Express outbound, but we all caught a Slant 40 from Coney.
Mr rt__:^)
yes !! thats right i will grace NYC & the subway system with my visit this summer !!
lol !!
October is after Indian Summer, is that what you ment ?
We'll be sure to tell all the T/Os to have those railfan windows clean.
Mr rt__:^)
We didn't actually miss any outbound Redbird expresses, but did catch a local doing a battery run, stopping only at Junction Blvd. and Main St.
That Q ride back from Coney was a blast. And that T/O was a real pro. We even talked him into taking that jog before Union Square under power. As we bore down on 28th St., I said, "28th St. dead ahead!", as we proceeded to rip past that station just as the R-32s used to do on the N all those years ago.
You read correctly. Needless to say, you are more than welcome to join us. And if the Bob and Fred Show is there live and in person, I may be ROTFLMAO the entire day.:-) We should plan for October 14, 15, or 16 (that's William Padron's, Mister R-10's, birthday). That's when I plan on being in the city. Come one, come all! It may be an inconvenience to some, as these are weekdays.
Steve: This looks like it will be an event to rival the opening of the First Subway. I'm going to arrange for "King Kong" to drop a few banana peals on Fred's head if he says something bad about the IRT.
I look forward to seeing you both.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hot Lunch: You're honest and I know where you stand. Nothing wrong with that. And since you are a BMT fan, you can rest assure that you stand tall with me. Good job. And have a nice hot lunch on me.
Oh Fred ... poor Fred ... you don't know what a "hot lunch on me" is ... and no, I won't take the fall for telling you either. You've been away too long, bro ...
Selkirk: I think what Fred is looking for is a free lunch, not a hot one.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Heh. SOMEBODY'S going to tell him ... ain't gonna be me though. No sirree ... I've already caused the boy enough trauma. :)
Selkirk: Not only is he looking for a free lunch but he still has'nt
answered my question about the last run of the D-Types. He probably still expects me to buy him two hot dogs at Nathan's. Sorry Fred, you have to buy a ticket to get into the ballpark.
Best Wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, tell you what. YOU answer me the question and the hot dogs are on me. Hell, when I come to New York I usually do the treating anway so no sweat. PLEASE tell me.
Fred: My question was about the date and route of the last passenger run of the D-Types and by that I meant covering a regular service on a regular route carrying regular fare payings people. (And not some crazy railfan nuts. You know the kind. They stay up to midnight to ride the first train through the Chrystie Street Connection or get to work at 4 in the morning to see the first train out of Wassaic.)
The date was Saturday, March 23,1974 and it was on Route SS Culver Shuttle, formerly BMT Route #5, but you knew that. D-Types 6019 and 6095 made three round trips between 9 Avenue and Ditmas Avenue replacing the regular equiptment on the shuttle. Yes it was part of a fantrip, popbably the best fantrip I was ever on. Nevertheless we did carry regular shuttle riders for about an hour.
Since you are a gentleman and a scholar I accept you offer of the two hot dogs but please allow me to pay for the suds.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I'm sure glad that you would not let me answer the question when I wanted to, because I was going to say the West End on July 23 1965.
Karl: And four nine years that was the correct answer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wouldn't have come close to getting that answer right because I had no inkling that they ran until 1974. Two Nathan's hot dogs coming up, but could you subsitute lemon ade for me instead of suds? Believe it or not I don't drink beer.
Glad to oblige. Do they have any lemon trees in Brooklyn?
Larry,RedbirdR33
No but we have plenty out here in California. I have one in my back yard. I guess I will have to supply the lemons if Nathan's doesn't have any, but, come on, they get their share from my state.
Actually lemons from Calley out this way are pretty rare - Pacific Fruit Express isn't what it used to be after the BNSF railroad merger. Chances are fruit on the east coast is from Guatemala or Europe. We have a HELL of a time trying to avoid Florida citrus in favor of that from California and often have to stockpile. Our purchase patterns are based on who voted for whom last year ... the wife is big on boycotting states that voted wrong much like our federal officials ... but that's politics and let's not go there - bottom line, California fruit is hard to come by on the east coast as a result of "competition."
Well, technically the Triplexes didn't run UNTIL 1974, although they most definitely could have had they not been so needlesly slaughtered. They rode off into the sunset in July of 1965, then were resurrected in March of 1974 for a few round trips on the Culver Shuttle.
Along those same lines, you could also ask when the Lo-Vs made their final revenue trip: October 27, 1994 on the 42nd St. shuttle.
Now you know Steve why I am very symptathetic to those Redbird fans who moan the loss of their favorite cars. When I returned to New York for the first time in 20 years and saw for myself that there were no more Triplexes my heart sank. I bordered between sadness and anger, a cherished part of my childhood torn away. That, plus the fact that the Sea Beach no longer carried the #4, made me realize I was no longer a kid and no longer a New Yorker but rather a tourist and my personal feelings on the matter didn't amount to a hill of beans.
I was bummed in 1990 when I found out the R-10s were no more, even though they had been banished to the C during their final years.
The date is July 23rd 1965. That was the last run of the "D" types in passenger service.
#3 West End Jeff
>>The date was Saturday, March 23,1974 and it was on Route SS Culver Shuttle, formerly BMT Route #5, but you knew that. D-Types 6019 and 6095 made three round trips between 9 Avenue and Ditmas Avenue replacing the regular equiptment on the shuttle. Yes it was part of a fantrip, popbably the best fantrip I was ever on. Nevertheless we did carry regular shuttle riders for about an hour.<<
Larry, hate to disagree with you, but July 23rd 1965 still stands as the last date the D-Types ran in revenue passenger service. A technicality called a General Order makes that so. The March 1974 fantrip was considered a "special" that carried some revenue paying passengers for an hour as you say. The July 23rd runs were regularly scheduled and not an "extra".
You owe Fred two Nathan's hot dogs !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: I would beg to differ with you. We ran on a regular route carrying regular fare paying passengers and keeping a regular schedule.
GENERAL ORDER
No
96-74 March 181974
""In part"
Whitehall Street B3-4 track via Montague Street Tunnel,4th Avenue express,36 Street to signal D3-504(22) 8 Avenue interlocking.
Upon arrival at this location special train will wait for the regular Culver shuttle to complete a regularly scheduled trip and lay up on D4. Special will then enter regular Culver Shuttle and make three round trips. Regular station stops will be made .
I still intend to buy Fred that lemonade but you can spring for the dogs if you want.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred did not seem to have a clue as to either of the two dates.
Shouldn't he be the one buying both of you hot dogs and lemonade!!!! Ugh!
The official drink of Nathan's was NON-CARBONATED ORANGE DRINK. But there was another non-carbonated drink that I never ordered. Maybe that was lemonade.
When the franks were 15c, the drinks were 5c for regular, 10c for large. The large was too big to finish and produced a 72-hour sugar high.
When I did that Gotham TV thing they bought me a hot dog and fries (latter of which was on camera) but I didn't get any drink.
Two dates? I thought it was only one date I didn't know. Besides, Larry is a class guy. He knows if he gets the dogs and I get the lemonade he will come out of it ahead. What are you trying to do Karl, bring dissension into the ranks. And to think I was just about to invite you to join us. I still will if you buy the shrimp that I love so much at Nathan's How about it?
Hey Fred, it looks as though I will be in the city during the week of October 13th, most likely flying in on Monday the 14th.
>>I still intend to buy Fred that lemonade but you can spring for the dogs if you want.<<
Well................if I was part of the bet maybe. Ill spring for the mustard !
Bill "Newkirk"
From what I know the last Triplexes ran in 1965 on the West End. They were taken off my Seaa Beach around 1963. That's closs enough and you owe me a hot dog at Nathan's/ Don't welch on me.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
I think I will have one soon
Fred: Sorry, thats not correct. You'll have to settle for a consolation prize of cold fries from Wendy's. (They shut the ovens down after Dave passed away). I still be glad to see you but you'll have to buy your own dogs.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Whattaya mean Larry, not take you up on your offer. You have a deal. Hey remember back in '99 when you asked me when I was in New York. I told you and you never got in touch when I hit town. I'm planning to join Brighton Express Bob (that pus) and Steve 8AVEXP next fall in the Big Apple. I might even make a short trip next summer. Hell, E-Mail me and we can also touch base. Perhaps you can join us. Nothing would suit me better to join up with a bunch of my rainfan buddies like I did last April when ten of us went riding out to Coney Island and had a hell of a time.
What do you mean pus, you Right Wing Bircher
Fred: Unfortunately I wasn't able to make your last vist but I plan to be there for the next one. I don't have the capacity to e-mail you directly from your posting. Please either print your e-mail address in the the next posting or e-mail me directly at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com. BTW I guess you didn't read my posting in response to your query about when the D-'s ran on the seabits. In that posting I offered to buy you two hot dogs at Nathan's if you could give me detail or the D's last revenue run.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
>>> to join up with a bunch of my rainfan buddies like I did last April when ten of us went riding out to Coney Island and had a hell of a time. <<<
That must have looked just like a scene from "The Warriors." :-)
Tom
You had to be there, from what I hear.:-)
We had some fun ourselves last October on a diamond Q out of Brighton Beach. The T/O chatted with us on the entire trip, and we blew past a couple of local trains. We were yelling, "HI!!" and "BYE!!" as we passed those trains. It was a blast.
Heh. All I need to do is tank up the wallet again for a return trip. That'll take a while. Upstate, having $100 in the bank is a Rockefeller type experience. :)
Fred, The Multis ran extensively on the Sea Beach Line when they were delivered, but only in testing. As far as I cantell the testing was done on the express tracks and the mileage recorded for each car each day. Revenue service testing was on the Canarsie Line.
I would be surprised if any Multis saw passenger service on the Sea Beach. The BMT was pretty compulsive about keeping the Eastern and Southern Division fleets separate. Multis were Eastern Division cars as Triplexes were Southern Division cars. Even the Standards were divided up into Eastern and Southern--there might have been some trading back and forth, but basically individual Standards were either Eastern or Southern. This was even true under the BofT and TA right up to Chrystie Street--R16s were Eastern, R27s, R30s and R32s were Southern.
What time frame are you talking about? There were some R1/9s on the BMT in the middle 50s, though I thought they were just on the 4th Avenue Local. There were also R10s for a while--don't know what lines they were on--never saw them. They had ogee roofs like the Multis, maybe that's what you saw.
Paul: It was the summer of 1952 and we went to my uncle's house just off Fort Hamilton Parkway on the Sea Beach. It wasn't a Triplex, and I know it wasn't a standard. I just wonder what the hell it was. It was a one shot ride. I never rode such a train again. I do know it was a Saturday afternoon.
Could it possibly have been a former SIRT car??
When did the TA buy those from Staten Island?
>>Could it possibly have been a former SIRT car??
When did the TA buy those from Staten Island? <<
The SIRT cars didn't show up until 1955. They saw service on the West End Local to Chambers St. as well as the Franklin and Culver Shuttles. There are no reports of them running in service on the Sea Beach except on the 1961 farewell fantrip.
Bill "Newkirk"
1952? MAYBE an R-10. I think that's about when they were on the BMT. But that's just a guess.
Paul....Could it have been the lightweight Zephyr? This unit held down the "Sunny Summer Sunday" schedule on the Sea Beach from time to time right into the early '50s. Although, Fred said he picked the train up at one of the Sea beach local stops.
Carl M.
Carl--
Fred said 42nd Street, by which I assume Times Square, so it wouldn't have the Zephyr on SSSS. I'm not sure the Zephyr was ever on a mainline run, since it could only make up a short train.
Paul....I stand corrected. I thought he said that he either got on or off at the Ft. hamilton Pky. stop of the Sea Beach.
Carl M.
Paul, I think that the R-10 made its first appearance on the BMT in Nov 1954.
And, it was only 50 cars, plus they spent their whole time on the BMT Eastern Division (specifically the No. 15 Jamaica Line).
Actually, 30 R-10s were sent over. 50 R-16s ran on the A for a time. I wonder how they did on the CPW dash.
Several R1's were operating on the #2 line at this time. Perhaps it was one of these trains.
I guess due to a car shortage on the BMT they borrowed some R-1s from the IND at that time.
#3 West End Jeff
They did borrow some R-1s after the R-10s were delivered.
Yup, from 1949 to 1960ish, nearly a third of the R1's were "donated" to the car-strapped BMT for use on the 4th Ave. local. Probably to assure the BMT that no new R10's would be used on their routes.
Can you imagine the R10 running on the Q/#1 line? You speed freaks are probably already drooling.
The R-10s did run on the Brighton Line in the late 70s or early 80s.
--Mark
Was the sound barrier broken?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was.:-)
I rode on a D train of R-10s once, but only along CPW. It thundered along that stretch, all right. It would have been interesting to have stayed on that train all the way down to Brighton Beach.
Fred... Was it a long train do you recall?
Carl M.
Carl and the rest of you who came to my aid. I just saw a picture of a #4 Sea Beach R-1 and I believe that was it. In fact, I am sure of it. Thanks guys for all the help. Mystery solved.
IND equipment stuck in the brain ... and a brighton D train no less. Oh, life is good. Heh.
So that was the first time you saw a train of R-1s.
Fred is coming down with dementia, he can t remember anything except Triplex on the Slow Beach to nowhere
You liked the Triplexes, too, didn't you?:-)
Bobby my buddy, you are confusing a host of subtalkers into thinking we are bitter rivals. Is that anyway to treat your pal? And the Sea Beach didn't go nowhere. It went the same place your train did, only it did it quicker without tearing up the neighborhood with their incessant noise. BTW, how's the job going? Let's touch base this weekend. I'll give you a buzz at your new pad.
Sadly yes Steve. Although for the life of me I don't know if I was missing anything. They look like ok cars to me but they seem like so many others. Was there something unique about them? I do know from others they were made during the Great Depression. That's a hell of a long time ago.
They were unique to me. Their symphony of marvelous sounds was music to my ears. BTW, did you know the R-1/9s had the same braking system as the Triplexes? Both car classes had the same "tch-ssss" magnet valve sound as they came to a stop.
Fred: You're perfectly correct. R-1's did run on the seabits from July to November 1931. That's probably where you saw them.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry. I hope you meant 1951 rather than l931. I am not that old and the R-1's were here yet.
The BMT was pretty compulsive about keeping the Eastern and Southern Division fleets separate.
Why was that?
Best guess--probably for maintenance reasons. For minority fleets like the Multis, ENY would have had the greater experience in routine maintenance. The Triplexes same boat, plus they would have been hell on some of the Eastern Division strcuture, in used regularly. The Triplexes even had the BRIDGE and TUNNEL designations as back lit glass plates in their sign boxes.
More interesting might be why the TA maintained this, even with when they began to get R-types, and until Chrystie Street.
I'm not certain whether they did the same with elevated fleets, but I wouldn't be surprised.
The Triplexes hardly got any maintenance at all, yet they still ran like tops until their premature demise.
As many of you know, in Chicago on the CTA there are no covers over the third rail. As far back as I remember (circa 1964) there have been covers on NYCTA third rails (also LIRR and PATH).
I saw in some old pictures, that it seems there were no covers on the third rail on the BMT. Is that true? If so, when did the TA start placing wooden cover over the third rail?
"I saw in some old pictures, that it seems there were no covers on the third rail on the BMT. Is that true?"
This was a holdover from the old "el" car days. The wooden "el" cars mostly used overrunning shoes on exposed type third rail. There were a small number of "el" cars with subway style third rail shoes and had anti-climbers painted white.
The BMT Brighton line had their exposed third rails replaced by conventional covered types around 1961. Even though, the "el" cars were long gone from the scene, there probably wasn't money available for the replacement.
Bill "Newkirk"
All of the BMT elevated lines had exposed third rails into the late 1950's. I think the subway-style subway covers were installed after the gate cars were scrapped.
The 2 exceptions to this were the Myrtle Ave. el south of Broadway, for obvious, and the Culver shuttle, which remained uncovered until it was closed.
BTW, can you "scrap" a wooden rail car? That term indicates something made of metal. What would be a more appropriate word? Splintered? Chopped?
They would usually burn them in place in the yard.
And then scrap the remaining metal frame etc. left over after the wood had been burned away.
-Robert King
So, the BMT gate cars were "torched" in 1958, not "scrapped"?
I love sarcastic semantics....LOL
The Myrtle Ave. Line (all of it from Bridge-Jay to Metropolitan), along with at least part of the Broadway-Brooklyn line from Myrtle to the ENY yards had uncovered third rail into the mid-1960s when the drop type third rail shoes on the Q-types were replaced with subway-type blade shoes.
-- Ed Sachs
Do the covers serve any real practical purpose?
They keep the rail free of snow, ice and debris and they help protect track workers. One can stand on the covers.
One should never stand on the covers.
I see track workers do it all the time. They bounce too.
You pick bad role models.
Hey, SEPTA Broad Street Subway cleaning crew guys are perfectly fine role models!
I notice newer covers seem to be something other than wood. Looks like fiberglass or something. The new covers are white.
As a transit employee one of the first things you are taught in track safety class is NEVER stand on a third rail protection board. The reason is that the wood can be rotted and if the wood gives way, then goodbye Charlie!
Many of the newer boards are made of fiberglass.
You can stand on bare rail as long as you stay 6 inches away from all other surfaces.
The a track worker wrote a comic strip I could see one installment being one worker standing on the bare thrid rail scuffing his feet upon said rail and moving, finger outstretched, towards another worker.
Was the comic strip titled The Darwin Awards?
How exactly do you get onto this bare 3rd rail without having
600 across your groin? Not that there's anything wrong with that...
I'm just making a hypothesis about this since I don't have any experience to draw upon. That said, I suppose you could jump onto a live, uncovered third rail and not be shocked provided you landed only on the third rail and didn't touch anything else. I imagine one could do the reverse to get off of it by jumping again.
-Robert King
Not a good policy. However, birds used to do it all the time where there was uncovered third rail--land on it and strut back and forth. I also used to see the pigeons duck under the third rail. I suppose one got fried occasionally, but I never saw it.
I've seen cats and racoons duck beneath the third rail occasionally, but haven't yet seen one fry for it either.
The birds on the third rail works exactly like birds on electric wires above the street, they're fine because they are only in contact with the third rail, they aren't conducting the electrical current from the third rail or wire to somewhere else. That's the important part - not to act as a conductor for the electrical current to get elsewhere...
Some general advice to everybody: if you're attached to something live, the worst thing you can do is ground yourself or come in contact with something attached to the current's intended return path... Even better, avoid coming in contact with live electricity altogether.
-Robert King
I also saw a stray cat slide under the third rail on the southbound local track at Sheepshead Bay. I was afraid it was gonna fry, but nothing happened.
I gave it some more thought over the last little while and the conclusion I arrived at is that there is enough stone ballast beneath the tracks that the roadbed itself is insulated rather well, although probably imperfectly, from the earth below - when it is dry, adding rain will change that. This means animals have to touch the third rail and one of the (grounded) running rails to complete a circuit strong enough to fry. Animals squishing through underneath the third rail probably feel something, but if they do, there isn't enough electricity flowing through them to the imperfect ground to harm them.
I've never seen animals near the third rail on wet days. Chances are the electrical leakage to the surrounding wet area from the third rail is strong enough that the animals feel the current and go away before they get close enough to get hurt.
-Robert King
I imagine dry fur and feathers are probably not real conductive, combined with the stone ballast you mentioned. WOuldn't want to watch if some animals decided to rub hard against the third rail, though.
Dry fur and feathers are quite a good insulator.
-Robert King
Nobody showed me how to bug a hot dog. CI Peter
It's like fencing ... attach dog in clip of small bug, lunge forward, contact ... you can use it as a fuse when testing end signs. :)
Robert:
As long as the person or animal doesn't become part of the ground or return, touching the third rail will not fry you. However, I wouldn't recommend it.
When I moved to Chicago, I was amazed at the number of track workers on the CTA 'L' structure that worked so close by the exposed third rail. I'm told that working on the elevated structure is fairly safe because unless you step on both the running rail and third rail at the same time, electrocution is not a problem. When it begins to rain, you'll see those guys who make it their job to work on the structure, be off the structure as soon as the first drops fall. Now you've added the component of water, and water does conduct electricity.
I'm not an electrical engineer either, but I've watched some of those CTA workers do things at or by the third rail that I'd never do, but then, they all looked pretty healthy to me with no 'singed' look from former run ins with the third rail.
Jim Kramer
We wear special shoes. CI Peter
I recall in the days when more TA third rail was uncovered, some track crews had a rubber mat they draped over the third rail.
Orange rubber mat still standard
Speaking of the third rail, has anyone (drunks) got fried urinating on the third rail at surface grade crossing, ie Ravenswood or Douglas line of the CTA?
Long thread on The Other Side of the Tracks, which produced this link:
Estate of SANG YEUL LEE, Deceased, vs. CHICAGO TRANSIT AUTHORITY.
Aw geez ... no ... let's not do THAT again. That thread will 404 this place. :)
I have seen rabbits and squirrels do the same duckunder move.
600 VDC is nuttin compared to the main power distribution lines crisscrossing the country. Birds will sit on the lower ones provided ambient humidity is low...they are warm. Maintainance today is provided by helicopter...not unusual to have your hair stand up on end or see 'Northern Lights.' I was looking at work on the Lex with uncovered third rail besides brick/concrete work. Wet morter and live rail do not mix. CI Peter
You can find more than 600 volts in some household appliances like TV sets, computer monitors, etc.
In the spring of 1998, one of my friends almost got a personal introduction to >600 V DC and a Darwin Award when he took the back of his computer monitor off and thought about touching the CRT's neck coil but decided against it. A few hours later I found out about this when I got a phonecall from Nick asking, hypothetically of course, what would happen if he did that and then the truth came out.
-Robert King
Not really a fair drop though ... the "red wire" in a TV set is seriously current-LIMITED whereas you can pull down several thousand amps from a third rail before the magnablaster kicks. As amusing as the voltage is, it's the current flow that truly cooks the meat. And there's plenty to be had from the third rail.
PLEASE let's not have someone try the balance bar dance ...
Make the schlubs trade the TA shuffle for the balance bar test.
Nah, this'd only degrade to the other topic on the other place that set a record for entries in the thread. Na-ga-da ...
This thread has set me thinking. Maybe New York should go back using electrocution as the mode of execution, only, move it down to NYC, someplace in the basement of the Tombs, with a length of Centre St line third rail to do the job: basically, it's the subway ride to Hell.
Yes, it isn't fair to compare a TV set to a third rail, but if it's high voltage you want, you don't have to look far... Regarding the large current available in subway third rails, this is a rare interesting read from one of our local discussion boards:
From: ed.jordan@n...
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 10:41 am
Subject: Re: Speaking of Electrical Power and Streetcars (message 5774)
Here is my experience on the subject.
When Can-Car was building the H5 subway cars, Garrett-AiResearch, who
was supplying the traction controls and motors, wanted to know what
levels of short circuit current were available at various locations
on the TTC system, in order to size the car fuses. So, a series of
tests was arranged at different locations to put a short circuit
across the third rail and to measure the resulting current. The short
circuiting device was one of TTC's DC substation circuit breakers, a
unit about 8 feet high, and 4 feet square, which we mounted on one of
the subway work cars.
The most spectacular location was on the Yonge line, in the open cut,
just behind the old Canadian Tire store. There, we were almost
directly under the Asquith substation, one of the largest on the
system, and also received current from 4 other nearby substations.
When the breaker closed, there was an enormous flash and a bang, and
moments later many lights came on in the nearby apartments (it was
about 3 a.m.). The current was over 25,000 amperes, and the
connecting cables, with copper over 1 1/2" in diameter were seen to
jump off the ground. The car's third rail shoes were welded to the
rail and had to be chiselled off. The car's main fuse, which is an
enclosed tube about 6" in diameter, was still so hot after an hour
that it melted the snow when it was dropped on the ground.
So, having a shorting switch on each car is obviously impractical
because of the size of the device needed. Grounding switches on high
voltage AC locos are never intended to be closed on a live line,
although in those cases, the currents are much lower. If a mechanic
must work on the electrical system on a car, he can open the car's
main knife switch, and padlock it open, thus ensuring safety. And in
the shops, if he wants to work on the third rail shoes, he simply
does not connect the car to the overhead power "bug" system.
Each subway car was supplied from the factory with third rail shoe
isolating sticks, which were about 2 x 2" wood pieces, tapered at one
end, to lift the shoes off the third rail, although I never heard of
them being used, particularly since TTC's third rail has a top cover
board, which makes access to the shoes extremely difficult.
Finally, I don't think loss of ground is as much of a problem on the
subway. The only place it may occur is on the seldom used tail tracks
at terminal stations, and then, with at least 16 wheels in contact
with the rail, it's not likely.
600V * 25,000A = 15,000,000W in that third rail.
-Robert King
Grounding switches on high
voltage AC locos are never intended to be closed on a live line,
although in those cases, the currents are much lower.
Bzzzzzzt, wrong answer. On PRR era locomotives/MUs and on some MU's still today, the way one cut power to a train was to operate a penumatic switch that would ground out the pantograph. The resulting short would then trip the substation that was supplying the power thus cutting off the juice. I believe that MNRR M-2's still use this system. Today's modern technlogy allows for small compact circut breakers.
That's what I thought having read "When The Steam Railroads Electrified". I don't know what that guy who wrote that thought the pantograph ground clips were there for, if they're not to trip out the section breaker back at the substation. The other way to disconnect a train from the power supply is to lower and latch the pantographs.
-Robert King
The other way to disconnect a train from the power supply is to lower and latch the pantographs.
That's just it. You can't!!!! If a train is drawing high loads, if you try to drop a pan you will get an arc and the arc will burn right through the overhead. That is why you need either a breaker or a overload trip.
You only do it when the train isn't pulling lots of current (power controller in off position).
-Robert King
Are you quite sure of that? It seems like a ludicrous way to
interrupt power.
Old breakers (knife switches in oil) were too large and too hard to operate in locomotives and MU's. You coudln't drop the pans as the arc would burn through the overhead. The only push-button system available was one that blew out the substation.
What sort of grounding switch was this? Does Nasadowksi have
any info?
One can stand on the covers.
... not on the one for E3 (SB exp.) on Sea Beach. On some parts, the wooden covering is actually ON the 3rd rail.
** . . . in Chicago on the CTA there are no covers over the third rail.**
Also in Boston on the “T.” I noticed this on the Red Line (whose car widths are not too dissimilar to the BMT/IND specs), but I.I.N.M., this also applies to the Blue and Orange Lines.
Because of the damage done to the #1/#9 Subway because of the September 11 attack to the World Trade Center I have read about the possible rerouting of the #1/#9 line to West Street. In reality such a rerouting will not be in the best interest of the system because it will only make an improvement to West Side Passengers.For residents of Battery Park City or persons from the Upper East Side of Manhattan no improvement will be seen since riders will still have to transfer to an additional train.
Instead what about the posssibility of routing the 2nd Avenue Subway in lower Manhattan via Chambers Street and West Street instead of the existing Nassau Street or proposed Water Street routing.
A Chambers/West Street routing will allow riders to transfer to the Nassau Street,Lexington Avenue,Broadway,8th Avenue and 7th Avenue Lines and provide a one seat ride from Battery Park City/WorldFinancial Center to the Upper East Side and possible to Queens. The cost for such a route will be expensive because of the deep construction that will be required under Chambers Street since the new route will have to go under all existing Subway lines as well as the PATH Trains.
Any comments.
Thank You
The operative word there is "expensive". Won't happen. Review the thread on "IRT 1/9 Rebuild". The priority now is to rebuild what was damaged and destroyed as quickly as possible.
A branch of the Second ave line could use the old Worth st IND routing....
If money were available, it would make sense to me to extend the Lexigton Local down Park Row and Vesey to a Battery Park City terminal. That would eliminate the problem of having everyone abandon the #6 and cram on the #4 and #5 at Brooklyn Bridge station.
It's number 100 on the little list of things to do.
A better route would be via Barclay, to interchange with the West Side line's local in the basement of WTC7, and thence to West St. This would give east side access to WTC PATH, provide new service to BPC/WFC, and allow half of the east side locals to serve South Ferry. This would probably involve destruction of the old IRT City Hall Station which is now used to turn the 6 around.
Too many billions of dollars, tho', and more bang can be bought elsewhere for that kind of money.
"If wishes were horses, . . . ."
Does anyone know when the TA started saving cars for the Subway Museum??
By the same token [couldn't resist THAT one :)], when was the Transit Museum planned and/or started??
I already know the history of the Court. St. Shuttle Station (HH), and its logical choice for the museum.
Don Harold and Mike Hanna started saving the rolling stock in the 60's.
During the Bi-Cen (1976) Court Street open its door.
Now on the hand, The LIRR started a display in their Brooklyn Terminal, but it failed.
Q: When did the LIRR have the failed display at the Flatbush Terminal. This is the first I've heard of this...
BMTman
Doug: It was there in 1979. I visted it on January 11. They had cars which I believe were MP-54 emu's;1632,1633,1900 and combine 921.
Only 1632 and 901 were open to the public.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wow! Wish I'd have known...
Larry, thanks for the info...
With such great publicity, no wonder it failed.
Saw Mike Hanna, from a far, this past Sunday. He was amoung the attendees of a model show in Freeport, LI.
Also there were some folks from the stream engine 35 & 39 groups.
Were N, HO & O scale layouts running, incl. a trolley one.
Mr rt__:^)
Does anyone have a close up picture of the so-often-referred to duct tape on the roof of a slant 40??
Why is it there to begin with, anyway??
Filling up cracks??
Holding the roof on??
:)
[Why is it there to begin with, anyway??]
To prevent water seepage between the fiberglass cab ends, steel roof and stainless steel bodies.
Consider it weatherstripping for subway cars.
BMTman
What kind of condition is the roof in on some of these Slant R-40s?
#3 West End Jeff
Picture a 1964 Ford Fairlane parked on the boardwalk outside of Nathan's for 37 years ... you'll get the picture.
>>Does anyone have a close up picture of the so-often-referred to duct tape on the roof of a slant 40?? <<
NO pic here. but the "duct" tape is there because when it rains outside, it rains inside (the cab)!!
The LIRR M-1s have the same problem and use the duct tape fix too. This is where the fiberglass bonnett meets the stainless steel.
Check out the R-38s lately ? The unpainted roofs have what looks like silicone smeared on the cracks on the roof The silicone has turned black and looks dirty. The newly repainted roofs are either painted with some kind of roofing or marine paint. It looks thick and almost hides creases or rivets etc. That would work better than duct tape.
Bill "Newkirk"
Spray on pickup truck liner plastic might be a solution too. But alas, it comes too late for the eventual redbirditis which will soon eat them all alive.
>>But alas, it comes too late for the eventual redbirditis which will soon eat them all alive. <<
That's what is happening, Selkirk. The roofs have developed leaks and the steel members are rusting or rotting. It seems an R-38 may look like an R-32. But the R-32 is ALL stainless steel in the body. The TA and St.Louie goofed with a carbody with stainless steel sides and carbon steel roof. Shame on you St.Louis Car Co and NYCTA !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, in fairness, let's not forget that BUDD pulled a little unexpected surprise with the R-32's ... it was CHEAPER to build them all stainless with Budd's proprietary welding methods for Budd than the usual LAHT that was standard with the TA. From what I heard years ago, the TA didn't even KNOW they would be all stainless until long after the manufacturing began, and nobody knew that the all stainless would have been far superior to what had been spec'd past the 32's.
Of course the TA knows NOW and when Budd went under, other carbody makers had access to Budd's patented stainless assembly methods. But I wouldn't blame the TA for not understanding the differences until years afterward. When they caught on, the specs changed.
You'd think the benefits would be obvious. Stainless steel didn't rust. The TA had 10 R11 cars for 15 years prior to the R32's first delivery, so it did have SOME experience with the stuff.
Won't argue with you there ... but also bear in mind that the NAVY has some very old boats, much older than ANYTHING in the NYCTA yards made of LAHT ... only difference is the BOATS got scraped and painted every now and then. :)
Yeah, you know how those 40's love to speed along broadway at a stunning 10 mph, without the duct tape the rooves would just fly right off.
I always thought that the drag created by the duct tape prevented the slants from acheiving flight as they wizz down the Brighton express...
Now there you go ... one of the best rides left in the system is on one of those Slants on the Brighton.
Mr rt__:^)
From day one the slants had problems where the fiberglass front meets the stainless steel. It really isn't duct tape, but something similar. I remenber that when they were new, a few times they were taken o/s becuae fo cracks in the fiberglass fronts. But the R1/9's were in such sad shape, anything was an improvement!
First of all, it's not duct tape. It's a 3M product for which I can't recall the trade name. It's actualy a stainless steel foil with an epoxy adhesive backing. The epoxy sets up and hardens with heat and sunlight and makes a waterproof seal between the stainless steel carbody and the fiberglass bonnets. While this product was used mostly on the R-40s, there are a few R-46s that received the same 'quick fix'.
I know the stuff, too. I just use the generic term 'duct tape' to describe the foil-adhesive since that is what it looks like to the layman.
BTW, that stuff is used by some rail-restoration groups to do small bits of car body 'bondo' (using paint as a final application). I believe some of the Redbirds carry some of those adhesive strips in various areas of their bodies that had been severely consumed by rust.
The portion of the BMT 14 Street-Eastern District Line between Montrose Avenue and Atlantic Avenue openned for service on July 14,1928. I cannot say exactly when #16 14 Street-Canarsie Express service began but the 1931 BMT map has express service operating between 8 Avenue and Rockaway Parkway. Express service may have begun with the extension of the 14 Street Line from 6 Avenue to 8 Avenue on May 30,1931. #16 Expresses ran non-stop between Lorimer Street and Myrtle Avenue.
#13 -14 Street-Fulton Street Express service began on September 23,1936 using the then new Multis. These trains left Lefferts Avenue (as it was then known) at 733am,743am,753am and 803am. They left 8 Avenue at 504pm,516pm,528pm and 540pm. They ran non-stop between Lorimer Street and Myrtle Avenue on the 14 Street Line and non-stop between Hudson Street and Hinsdale Street on the Fulton Street El.
Once platforms were lengthened they made all stops between Hudson Street and Hinsdale Street.
April 30,1956 was the last day for the #13 14 St-Fulton St Exp
August 23,1956 was the last day for the #16 14 St-Canarsie Exp.
Larry,RedbirdR33
August 23, 1956:
Wait a minute! Do you mean to say 14th St Trains used the elevated, a few months after it was connected to the A Line?
Did I miss something?
-Stef
Stef: You misread the post. The last day for the #13 14 St-Fulton St Exp was April 30,1956 not August. The August 23 date is for the #16 14 Street-Canarsie Exp.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Sorry!
I'm daydreaming tonight. I will have a lot of time on my hands starting on Sunday. I need to take a ride into the Eastern Division.
Regards,
Stef
Highly recommended ... get in touch with Dougie and Heypaul. You'll never be the same. :)
Thanks for the definitive answer to my original post asking about the info on 14th St./Canarsie express service.
Tunnel Rat
Tunnel Rat: You're quite welcome.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Sounds like the expresses simply ran non-stop through Graham, Grand, Montrose, Morgan, Jefferson, and DeKalb on the same track as the normal local service. Is that true?
Yes
Wait a second, that has to mess up the whole run. If expresses are running every 10 minutes, how often are the locals running? And then again, isn't it common for an express to get caught up behind a local?
In this Disney movie, which I saw sometime ago, there is a filing system for doors which involves doors clamped by a clamp and moving along rails (like a suspended monorailtype concept). In one scene, when Monster Sully is chasing another monster by hanging onto the doors, the monsters hopped from door to adjacent doors (and doors on adjacent tracks) like subway surfers, and eventually they hopped onto a door which was going faster than the doors on the other track (where the monsters they were pursuing were travelling). Monster Sully then said:
"Must 'ave gotten on the Express"
Lexcie is glad to see that Disney, Inc. is featuring elementary concepts from New York City Transit, Inc., in their movie Monsters, Inc., in order to educate The Young, Inc., about the wonders of the subway. Way to go Disney!
Haven't seen the movie yet, but it sounds like it's advocating subway surfing. Not the sort of lesson we want to teach children!
Three guesses where I took these pix of this Acela Express trainset, with lead motor 2005.
The date was December 28, 2001:
Sorry about the poor photo quality. Seeing the train was a surprise, and all I had was a disposable 35mm camera! :O(
Let me see. ACELA's arrive on the NS Harrisburg Yard and Abrahm's Yard in Norristown after comming off the former PRR Buffalo Line. Your photos were clearly a former PRR yard what with the cat poles and all. The yard is quite long and wide and looks pretty empty with two mainline tracks in the foreground. The terrian is relitivly flat with no prominent buildings.
No doubt about it. The mystery location is the Harrisburg Relay Yard.
Gee, how'd ya guess! :O) If that's the one just north (westbound) of the station between it and the Cameron Street overpass, of course you got it. (I included the catenary poles as a clue. Then there's my handle. Duh.) Anyway, there were two dump cars on the south end of the consist and two boxcars on the north. No power was connected to either end. Made me think why don't they just lose the freight cars, get a nudge a half mile down the tracks, put up the pans, and have it power itself to Philly? I'd pay for a HAR-PHL Acela Express Special. Or I could wait. If history repeats itself, they'll end their days on the Main Line in 20 years or so.
I was learning at first towards Morrisville or Greenwhich, but then I remembered that they had to go from the Buffalo Line to Race St. Engine Terminal and this was the only PRR yard on the way. Shame Amtrak closed the engine facilities at HBG, they could have accepted and preped the engines there.
I was going to say Morrisville.
Through much of the 1990s, NYC was in a relative boom. Of course, not everyone benefited from it. However, there was enough general confidence to suggest that several expensive projects could actually be accomplished, and not occupy space on planning boards. Among them were...
--The 2nd Avenue Subway
--A new Penn Station in the Farley PO building
--New Yankee and Mets as well as NY Jets stadiums. (The need for a new Yankee Stadium is the most debatable).
However, NYC did not move on these projects while the city was flush. Then the economy in the city and the nation tanked, as it most always does in the business cycle. And the WTC was destroyed, pushing the economy further off the cliff.
I realize it's not as simple as that. Environmentalists, NIMBYs, and a host of other roadblocks are always in the way, regardless of the economy.
But I believe the city lost a great chance to create lasting public works in the 1990s.
Any opinions?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The City needed federal money and a host of political support in order to complete these projects, neither of which was there in the boom days (or more appropriatly, the dot.com boom days). In the case of the 2nd Ave., there was little political support for the project, and we certainly weren't going to get money for such an expensive project out of Congress (which, at the time and still is, consisted of mostly conservative Republicans who had serious qualms with Ex-Mayor Guiliani and not about to partially bankroll a new project after what Sen. Kennedy did with the "Big Dig" in Boston), or out of Albany (focus was upstate and was uusally late with its budgets). In the case of the Penn Station/Farley P.O., that project was derailed (no pun intended) by many things, not the least of which was Amtrak's unstable financial future (they mortgaged the current Penn Station in an attempt to stay financially solvent, so what makes anyone think that they'll still be around to move into the new one?), and the need for new emergency exits that would have spiked the costs of the project to levels that would price out political support. In the case of the statiums, well, that is still pending on what Bloomberg does about it.
I think the Farley project is still slowly moving along, despite Amtrak's financial situation.
I think the Farley project is still slowly moving along, despite Amtrak's financial situation.
Suspect that's right. I also suspect, in light of 9/11 and the quiet approval of some $$$ for 2 new Hudson tunnels last fall by some piece of national govt as part of post-9/11 appropriations, that the emergency exits for existing tunnels get heavily prioritized over a nice shiny new station for whatever follows Amtrak.
Me, I just want to make sure it gets called "Empire Station" rather than "Penn Station". As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state ....
As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state
Come on, you know it isn't named for the state of Pennsylvania :).
As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state
Come on, you know it isn't named for the state of Pennsylvania :).
OK, true. It's named after a RAILROAD, defunct for 30+ years, whose name included the state of Pennsylvania!
It would likely take 10+ years for New Yorkers to begin to call the long-distance part by a different name, but I think it would provide a nice separation between the commuter/subway parts and the long-distance rail parts. Old codgers like me who still refer to the "RCA Building" and the "Pan Am Building" would be a tougher nut to crack, but we are clearly a tiny minority.
Yeah and look how many people, even young, refer to the IRT, BMT, and IND!
How many young, non-railfan people refer to the BMT, IND and IRT?
Penn station was named after a railroad not the state of Pennsylvania.
And the railroad was named after a forest of writing implements.
First, i think we should stand for nothing less than the destruction of Madison [] Garden IV and 1 Penn Plaza and the conplete restoration of the 1910 station as it was. Too bad the terrorists didn't crash the planes those two monstrocities in MidTown.
Me, I just want to make sure it gets called "Empire Station" rather than "Penn Station".
Shame on you. The Railroad that gave this nation its premier rail line and its only non-ferry rail connections west deserved to have a little lasting credit.
>>>Too bad the terrorists didn't crash the
planes those two monstrocities in MidTown. <<<
Do you mean that?
I hope you're being facetious. I hope.
Yes I would have preferred the terrorists crashing the planes into MSG IV instead of the WTC. Woudln't anyone?
Yes I would have preferred the terrorists crashing the planes into MSG IV instead of the WTC. Woudln't anyone?
Hmmmm ... maybe that stupid kid in Tampa was a recent migrant from New York and really hated Madison Square Garden ... but his navigation skills were a bit shaky and he missed the target by 1,200 miles!
>>>>Yes I would have preferred the terrorists crashing the planes into MSG IV instead of the WTC. Woudln't
anyone? <<<
I'd rather they skip crashing planes anywhere.
I'd have to agree that Penn station should be rebuilt as it was, on the original site. We owe it to future generations, Unfortunately, I missed ever even stepping foot in the real Penn Station by 6 years. The people of the 60's robbed it from New York. But we also have to be realistic. I don't think it will ever happen, and unfortunately it isn't even feasible. Too bad. We'll have to accept the refurbished post office. At least it was designed by the same people.
If everyone in the city goes and demands Penn Station the way it was then it would probably happen. The great shout begins w/ a single voice.
It's too bad that no one heard the voices when the jackhammers started attacking the real thing.......
There weren't as many voices, and very few if any famous people.
Besides, at the time people thought it was old and ugly. If those people weren't dead by now, they should have had their eyes gouged out.
There weren't as many voices, and very few if any famous people.
By the standards of 1964, there were quite a lot. This was well before community activism and historic preservation became in any way common or even part of public consciousness. I think they had the architect Philip Johnson, IIRC, and a few other luminaries.
Sure, there were only a few dozen people picketing at the height ... but then Penn Station was only 50 years old when it was torn down, and historic preservation in that age was thought to be about places like Historic Williamsburg.
Its demolition got a NYC landmark preservation law passed, led to the formation of historic districts in the city and provided the legal framework under which Grand Central was saved.
Not that I would want to see Grand Central gone, it's a great building. But I think Penn station blew Grand Central away in grandeur. If one had to go I wish Penn was still there because it is still used for long distance trains. But please, don't get me wrong I wouldn't want to see GC gone either. But people traveling to NY get out in that disaster that Penn has become, not GC.
I want to see Grand Central gone. It is only fair. Why should only some of the commuters have to use a shitty station? Misery loves company.
Because the appearance of the building doesn't affect its utility. Penn Station is no more or less practical from a commuter's standpoint than before the demolition.
Their appearance is important because they are public buildings. Tearing down the second one doesn't create balance, it eliminates yet another gem from the city's crown.
>> Besides, at the time people thought it was old and ugly. <<
You couldn't be more wrong. The financially-ailing Pennsylvania Railroad decided that the air above the station was far more valuable as office space than a grandiose train station. In an attempt to create a revenue stream and save themselves, they sold the air rights to private industry (Gulf & Western at the time, I think). The remnants of the Pennylvania/Penn-Central RR live on as an insurance underwritng company (which up until a few years ago still went by the name "Penn Central Transportation Company").
In point of fact, the public furor over the demolition of Penn Station is what directly led to the creation of the Landmarks Preservation Commission, in order to prevent just such things from ever happening again. Folks here (rightly so) decry NIMBY-ism, but --ironically -- if it was more prevalent back then, Pennsylvania Station might still exist in its original form.
If nothing else, the destruction of Pennsylvania Station served to help save many other wonderful architecturally significant edifices from similar fates.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The remnants of the Pennylvania/Penn-Central RR live on as an insurance underwritng company (which up until a few years ago still went by the name "Penn Central Transportation Company").
UPDATE - Penn Central (PC) emerged from bankruptcy as the Penn Central Corporation (PCC) (PC shareholders received ONE PCC share for every 25 PC shares they owned). It eventually changed its name to American Premier Underwriters and later again to American Financial Group.
I have their 1978 Annual report. They owned the whole Six Flags series of amusement parks.
Is that the same as the National Register of Historic Landmarks? Denver's Union Station, built in the same Beaux Arts style as Grand Central Terminal, is on that register.
I passed through what was left of Penn Station in July of 1965. Unfortunately, I don't remember anything except for the booming announcer's voice over the loudspeakers. There was a post a while bach which stated that the concourse was still intact in 1965, and judging from the photos I've seen, there were speakers at each stairwell leading down to the tracks. So that must have been where we were while waiting for our train to Linden after spending the day at the World's Fair.
I rode on the subway for the first time the following day, and the rest is history.
while I certainly wish no casualties, the demolition of the two eyesores and the reconstruction of the glorious original ARE the correct maneuvers. And yes even as a diehard B&O fan (arch rival of PRR) the name is was and shall ever be Penn Station.
The B&O wasn't the arch rival of the PRR, the NYC was.
Depends on where you are located. While you and I both think of the PRR/NYC rivalry as #1, the PRR/B&O rivalry ran a close second, and in many areas was far more important.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
PRR/Reading was second.
AND WE (B&O) owned the RDG which owned the CRRNJ.
If you think B&O PRR was not a rivalry, read Herb Harwood's excellent book on the Royal Blue Route. PRR and B&O often competed for routes, business, and buying up smaller lines. All that said, PRR DID do a better job on the NY Wash lines, although with the exception of the Broadway when it was all Pullman, their ding cars were distinctly inferior to those of the B&O.
First, i think we should stand for nothing less than the destruction of Madison [] Garden IV and 1 Penn Plaza and the conplete restoration of the 1910 station as it was.
Whoa - wait a minute!!! I work in One Penn Plaza. It's TWO Penn Plaza that's on the site of the former Pennsylvania Station. One Penn Plaza is between 33rd and 34th Sts. Penn Station was between 31st and 33rd Sts.
As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state ....
Guess you must have forgotten about Grand Central...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in New York, New York, is named after some other state ....
Guess you must have forgotten about Grand Central...
Mean to say "long-distance train station" ... since GCT is now commuter-only and serves primarily NY residents (plus some Conneticuters).
Are Amtrak trains ever rerouted to GCT if, for whatever reason, they can't get to Penn?
Are Amtrak [Empire] trains ever rerouted to GCT if, for whatever reason, they can't get to Penn?
I highly, highly doubt it. More likely they'd be terminated at Yonkers or points above. I doubt that Amtrak speaks at all to the Metro North folk who control all of GCT now.
(And I find it interesting that, due I'm sure to incompatible 3rd rail, there is planned to be no interchange whatsoever between new LIRR portion of GCT and existing Metro North portion.)
So the new Hudson tunnels will become a reality?
YES! YES! YES!
Me, I just want to make sure it gets called "Empire Station" rather than "Penn Station". As a (mostly) lifelong New York State resident, it has ALWAYS teed me off that the only remaining train station in
New York, New York, is named after some other state ....
Sounds good to me!
:-) Andrew
C'mon! These are NON-liberal times ... aim higher! *TRUMP* STATION! (sorry, Enron station's already taken) ...
we certainly weren't going to get money for such an expensive project ... out of Albany (focus was upstate and was uusally late with its budgets).
That may change, however. A seismic shift happened in the 2000 elections. The New York State electorate historically broke into two parts: Upstaters (usually including Westchester & LI) and NYC. For most of the century, those parts were roughly equal in size and power, and horsetrading got done between the two. NYC owned the Assembly, upstate owned the State Senate.
In 2000, however, it became clear that there are now three roughly equal parts. Upstate is economically and socially conservative, NYC is economically and socially ... ummm ... progressive, and a new third group -- EQUAL IN SIZE AND RICHER THAN EITHER OF THE OTHER TWO -- is economically conservative but socially progressive.
This suburban group (think Chappaqua) often supports transit projects (although suburban rail often trumps NYC subways). I think over the long term, the political calculus in NYS will become more favorable to transit funding.
they mortgaged the current Penn Station in an attempt to stay financially solvent
Almost always a financially prudent thing to do anyway. A mortgage is the cheapest money you can borrow (except if you count Islamic interest free loans), so it is a great way of funding something on which you expect a return.
What self-respenting government agency would spend money on a stadium rather than on transit? I'll tell you, I would never vote for anyone who would do that.
- Lyle Goldman
>>New Yankee and Mets as well as NY Jets stadiums. (The need for a new Yankee Stadium is the most debatable).<<
How about new Yankee and Mets stadiums built with money from the teams and the private sector ? In other words, leave the taxpayers out ! The new stadiums would generate tax dollars anyway, would they ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm not so concerned. The idea for the Second Avenue line has been poking around for something like 75 years now, through other flush times besides the 1990's, and of course nothing has been accomplished. Conversion of the Farley post office to Amtrak use was of dubious usefulness. What was and is needed are two more tunnels under the Hudson, but no one seemed to take interest. As far as the stadiums are concerned, I'm glad they weren't built. Taxpayer money should not be used to subsidize zillionaire team owners.
Conversion of the Farley post office to Amtrak use was of dubious usefulness. What was and is needed are two more tunnels under the Hudson, but no one seemed to take interest.
Think that's changed post-9/11 as noted elsewhere on this thread.
Yeah I think the Post office Penn station Amtrak plan is back on track again.
Why does the TA mislead it's employees and the public into thinking that the redbirds are on their last legs? We all know it's going be awhile before they're fully replaced. I expect to see them on the 7 line until at least July, maybe even the end of 2002.
Why are the simplest tasks so difficult?
Example. I'm on the 4 s/b at 12:25am at 125st. We go express. I comment to my friend that it's too late for an express, let me ask the C/R what's going on. I'm told that there is a work train on the local track, so we have to go express.
When we arrive at 59th, I leave the 4 train and make my way to the street in search of a cab. It's late, and I'm not about to get
d!cked around on the Queens Corridor, so I just splurge on a taxi. On my way up, I pass the s/b local platform. What do I find? About 100 people waiting for a s/b 4. I asked if an announcement was made stating that the next 4 train would arrive on the lower platform. If you subtalkers know anything about the TA, you know what the answer to my question was. Why weren't these people told that the next train would arrive on the lower platform?
WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR A TA EMPLOYEE TO ANNOUNCE ON THE PA SYSTEM, "ATTENTION PASSENGERS, THE NEXT 4 TRAIN WILL ARRIVE ON THE LOWER PLATFORM"?????????????????????????????????????????????
Usually, the opposite is the case. People are left stranded on the lower platform by the TA, while no announcement is made regarding a rerouting.
One morning, I was traveling uptown waiting for a 4 or 5. I was on the lower level at 59th(express tracks) and noticed by the headlights that the approaching train was not a passenger train. It was definitely a work train. I quickly informed some people around me, and we ran upstairs for any uptown train. When we got upstairs, a n/b 4 came into the station. I asked some of the people who ran up with me if an announcement was made, and they all said "no".
What would it have taken for a TA employee working in the tower to make the announcement so that people aren't left waiting for a train that isn't coming?????????????????
I have worked in a station with a PA System and have made announcements. The people refuse to listen. I have worked stations where a G.O. suspended service with trains in one-drection runnign express. They ask where the uptown is and I break the bad news. They cuss me out and wait anyway. An hour later they come back and gripe why I did not tell them there was no train. I repeat the explanation and they say " I just want the train." I then tell them the next train is 5am and they cuss you out and walk away muttering about stupid transit employee and how subways should not run at night.
Not all stations have PA systems and not all towers make announcements even if the station has a PA. (Some PA systems can only be used by the tower- ie no mike in the booth.) I myself have seen TSSs on a platform where there is a G.O. amd have asked them to please ask the tower to make announcements.
So in summary:
1. People don't listen to announcements.
2. Even when they do listen they can't hear them, either because of extraneous noise (which brings us back to the thread on subway musicians) or defective speakers.
3. TA employees who know of a problem can't always make an announcement because they have no mike or there are no speakers.
4. TA employess who know of a problem may not bother to make an announcement even if they could.
My feeling is that the situation is better than 10 years ago: more working speakers, more effort by the TA to make announcements. But the TA still has a ways to go.
As for #1, that's their problem (and if they are tourists who don't speak English, that's just one of the hazards of being a tourist in a foreign land).
#1 There are 26 languages in register with NY motor vehicles....there are 146 languages heard in the subways...the TA rule for employment is that you must be able to speak and be understood in English and understand English. Not being able to communicate means you're lost or doomed to demise. CI Peter
Excellent point. Yesterday I was at Penn Station (8th Ave Subway) at about 6:15 AM. There was a stalled A train at Canal St. and announcements were being made that downtown A service was being diverted to the local tracks. The announcements were loud enough and clear enough to be easily understood. This meant that people waiting on the express platform for a downtown A train should X-over to the local platform. Some did! Others just stood there, staring at the speakers in the ceiling of the station or staring into the tunnel. Confused? Paralyzed by fear of the unknown? Not in a rush? Just plain stupid? Don't speak english? All of the above? Beats me.
Over on the Lexington line, they never make the announcements. Never! For some reason, the passengers are on their own. Especially at midnight. It's at this time that the 4 is supposed to run local, while the 6 and 5 trains run shuttle in the Bronx. It's not at all uncommon for a work train on the downtown local tracks to cause a downtown local 4 to be rerouted on the express tracks (lower level) with no annoucements made.
Let me currect you on one thing. The No.6 Line runs from Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge 24/7.
Really? It didn't use to. The 6 used to run from Pelham Bay Park to 125 St. overnight, with the 4 providing all Lex service in Manhattan south of 125 St.
When did this change? Just curious.
-- Tim
About two or three years ago, the TA extended IRT 6 Lex/Pelham service from 125th to Brooklyn Bridge at all times, instead of just 5AM-Midnight.
OIC, thanks. My last visit to NY was in the fall of '97 (and even then, I wasn't paying attention to the details of which terminals the various lines went to).
Regards,
Tim
Standard overnight headways are 20 minutes on each route. A few years ago, the TA decided to improve overnight headways on the busier corridors by "doubling up" routes. In most cases, this was done by turning an express into a local, giving us the 1/2, A/E, and E/F (Queens). The Lex IRT only had one overnight service to begin with, the 4, so the 6 was extended to Brooklyn Bridge to provide the second service. A wise move all around, IMO; my only question is why it wasn't done on every line that had/has one express and one local overnight (D/F pre-7/22, N/Q post-7/22, A/D on CPW). Notice that Queens Boulevard now has its late night express service back, since the E and G adequately cover the local; no other line has three late night services.
I used to take the Lex downtown from GCT on occasion at 5 PM (though not in the last year). I heard quite a few announcements concerning delays.
There was a stalled A train at Canal St. and announcements were being made that downtown A service was being diverted to the local tracks. The announcements were loud enough and clear enough to be easily understood.
One problem with audio communications is that it is transitory. Signs offer the possibility of reaching a greater number of people over time. Electronic displays every 50 feet would be good but a high tech solution is not required. The Paris Metro used a blackboard. The words "Retard des Trains" was painted on top. The ticket agent would post any delays. There were even hooks at each subway entrance to hang these blackboards.
Others just stood there, staring at the speakers in the ceiling of the station or staring into the tunnel. Confused? Paralyzed by fear of the unknown? Not in a rush? Just plain stupid? Don't speak english? All of the above? Beats me.
Perhaps they had heeded TA announcements in the past. I've had enough bad experiences where I'd been directed to take non-existent services to listen to TA announcements with a healthy dose of skepticism.
"Perhaps they had heeded TA announcements in the past. I've had enough bad experiences where I'd been directed to take non-existent services to listen to TA announcements with a healthy dose of skepticism."
I thought we were going to go in a different direction. Why the Penn Station 7th Ave & 8th Ave. Subway stations were designed the way they were. I suppose there was a logic to using one Island platform for the uptown and downtown express services while using the outside platforms for the local service. Every AM I have to guess whether to wait on the local platform for the 'C' or the express platform for the 'A' - or run through the X-over if I guess wrong.
Getting back to your original point, ignoring the announcements are not the answer. If an alternate service is announced and is non-existent, I'd say complain loud and often. The TA is very customer driven and a full-scale investigation will be launched. They really do try to correct inadequacies when they are reported.
The Paris Metro used a blackboard. The words "Retard des Trains" was painted on top.
A terrific expression!
"The words "Retard des Trains" was painted on top."
Yeah, that'll go over big. I can just hear it now at the typical Brooklyn subway station; "Who you's guys callin' a retard?"
We already have a whiteboard in most booths which is used for service delay info and reroutes. I have worked booths where we had the board and there was a message on the board in English and Spanish and I made announcements and taped off the platform and popsted signs and still they calimed no one told them. We cant drag them by the hair. All we can do is say "I'm sorry, but dudue to track work there is no.... The next train will be at 5am or 5am Monday and still they wait!
Thankyouverrrrymuch in de orne. CI Peter
Those of us working in the subway see and experience the lowest forms of human behavior daily. After 22 years of experiencing it daily pounding the road, I am getting to the end of my rope.
Do you the way they have posted service notices all over the 1 line informing people that there is NO NORTH BOUND #2 service this weekend, but there they were with that stupid look on their faces. Followed by the question "Is the 2 running?"
And I'm in trouble taking the train to work.....the #2 is the only trainset to get to my yard which is its home. CI Peter
When entering the Montague Tube from Whitehall Street, I notice 2 small "alcoves" that look like they were to be diverging tunnels to somewhere.
Does anyone have any info on any plans to where those might have been going to?
It has been discussed already in here. Either it was the beginning of a line to Staten Island. Or a line going to Brooklyn. Possibily linking up to the IND at Court St
The bellmouths in the tunnel wall south of Whitehall Street were for a proposed alternate route to Brooklyn. The provision for the Staten Island connection is on the 4 Avenue subway in Brooklyn.
Larry,RedbirdR33
IIRC, someone on here said that these bellmouths were for a parallel set of tubes for the Broadway local so that the entire existing Montague St. tunnel could be devoted to Nassau loop service.
I recall reading somewhere in this forum that it's an offramp for diverting trains that are out of control coming through Whitehall, so they don't derail in the tunnel (which would be a big PITA, to say the least).
Do you put HUMMUS on your PITA?
:0)
I don't know how many of u guys uses the Grand Streets Shuttle to commute to work or school daily. But,I do and Let me tell u. I hate them and they are mad f****** slooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwww and sucks as in Capital "S" train. I'm sick waiting 10 min for the shuttle to get to west 4 to I tranfer for the F to get to mah school. I never been late to school when B D Q were still running on 6th Ave. And ever since the that "S"tupid "S"huttle settle in. I've been late to school at least 6 time which I no long have prefer attendants. Thanks to the "so called" "S"tupid Shuttle I will not received a prefect attendants awards for this year. Boy, I can't wait til 2004. By them I hoped the TA will completely destroyed that shuttle for good. Now why TA named Grand Street Shuttles as an "S" train. Because it Stands for "Stupid So-called Slowpoke Shuttle train." Even the 42nd street shuttle are fastered than that stupid train. And I don't understand why TA didn't extended B D service to Grand street. I sured it will make commuter who uses 6th Ave line an easier way.
By the way, happy new years to everyone.
>>Thanks to the "so called" "S"tupid Shuttle I will not received a prefect attendants awards for this year.<<
Just set your alarm clock 15 minutes earlier and also leave your home 15 minutes earlier than you normally do. SIMPLE!
Bill "Newkirk"
Or take alternate service.
Work on the spelling and grammar instead of the attendance.
I think the last time the MB was closed to 6Av, they had an orange shuttle from Grand St to 57th, but of course this was before the 63rd Conn. opened.
<<<"I think the last time the MB was closed to 6Av, they had an orange shuttle from Grand St to 57th, but of course this was before the 63rd Conn. opened.">>>
I remember this as well. With this in mind, why couldn't the "V" train run to Grand Street for the duration of the Manny B repairs? The shuttle could run weekends.
How many times does it have to be said that there is no switch outside Grand Street that would allow for a decent level of service on a regular (non-shuttle) line?
David
Not only that, but I must assume that MOST SubTalkers are residents of the NY Metropolitan area. Especially the guys with subway sounding "handles", don't these guys know the physical characteristics of the system? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what happens when we ass-u-me!
You can't actually blame the TA for designing the Manhattan Bridge in a way that caused it to be damaged every time a subway ran over it. They are doing the best they can with a bad situation.
Have you considered walking to Delancey and Essex or 2nd Ave for an F, or to Bowery, Canal, or even Spring St. for a train that connects with the F? Depending on exactly where you live, one of these options is probably quicker than waiting for the shuttle.
Also, have you conidered downloading from the MTA site the printable schedule that tells you exactly when the shuttle runs? From 5:57 AM to 9:57 PM it leaves Grand St every 12 mins.
Al: Hear, hear!
How much money and time would it cost to demolish the Manhattan Bridge and build a cantilever or arch bridge in its place?
Alternatively, how much money and time would it cost to move the subway tracks to the centre of the Bridge?
With all the time and money they just poured/are pouring into the MB, that won't happen any time soon.
The idea of the current repairs is that they will make the bridge so stiff that it can tolerate the trains running on the outside. Assuming proper design (let's hope they get it right this time around), the problem is solved for all our lifetimes.
It might have been cheaper to tear down the bridge and rebuild it the correct way, but it would have been a disaster for NYC to do it that way, losing all 4 tracks and the 6 or more highway lanes for many years.
I think what would be more workable would be to convert the rail lanes on Manny to driving lanes (they should be wide enough), giving two new lanes in each direction (I think that's a grand total of 4 in each direction, plus the three center lanes which are currently into Manhattan - currently there are 2 lanes outbound and 5 inbound, a rather asymmetric setup), then build a new bridge entirely devoted to rail traffic alongside it. Perhaps leave 2 of the rail lanes on the old bridge and connections to it, for use in emergencies. That way you'd have 4 lanes going out of the city (2 sets of 2 lanes each) and 5 inbound (1 deck with 2 lanes and another deck with 3 lanes).
Better yet, rather than doing it bass ackwards as suggested above, build the new bridge first (four or more rail lanes)), move the train service to the new lanes (which could include new LIRR or MNRR tracks as well?), then pave the old tracks on Manny (or pave 2 of the tracks and leave 2 as is for emergency use) and turn them into road lanes.
Now THAT would be a solution for the future!
How much more would a new four-track tunnel cost?
As I look back, the money used to build the 63rd St. line (ok, the money was appropriated long before 1984 when all these MannyB problems started) could have been more wisely spent on a new tunnel under the MannyB. But I doubt if any politico or DOT ever thought repairs would take beyond the year 2000.
"As I look back, the money used to build the 63rd St. line (ok, the money was appropriated long before 1984 when all these
MannyB problems started) could have been more wisely spent on a new tunnel under the MannyB."
Where do you come up with that? Illogical - the two are different issues. Queens grew the fastest of any borough in the city during the past twenty years, yet had very little subway service added to it. The 63rd St line was designed to serve commuters for whom the Manny B was not relevant. Check your geography.
It was not forseen in the 1960's that the line would be truncated due to fiscal issues; however, even the current line does offer a 20% increase in total rail capacity into Manhattan.
" But I doubt if any politico
or DOT ever thought repairs would take beyond the year 2000."
True enough. But you haven't made the case that a new tunnel would be cost-effective. Continued service on the reopened south side will prove the Manny B repair's cost-effectiveness.
If the 63rd St. tunnel was built for the intended purpose, that is to hook up with a brand new line through Queens, then I would feel that it was put to good use. However, all this line does is give the TA an alternate route to/from Queens and sends F line riders to stations on Sixth Ave. via 63rd St. instead of 53rd St.
Wrong.
The 63rd St line's acual functions were described inmmany posts here and on the TA's website. They are still there if you are inclined to do some homework.
The 63rd St project resulted in a net gain of local track capacity into Manhattan. The F was rerouted onto 63rd St and the G was truncated, resulting in an additional local train (the V) being sent to Manhattan.
Thus, two express services plus two locals became two express plus three locals. If you consider total Queens service, including the 7 train, you get three express services (one peak-direction only, the 7) and four local trains, up from three.
Redirecting the F also allowed a more efficient passenger distribution based on riding distance, as well as offering upper East Side and Roosevelt Island commuters a new way into Queens.
Are you saying that a new line thru Queens was never planned to be hooked up to the 63rd St. tunnel when the MTA was created in the late 60's?
Chairman Bill Ronan was smoking some really BAD stuff. :)
No, there was a line planned - a bypass track along LIRR ROW to Forest Hills. NYC's fiscal crisis in the 70's prevented that from being accomplished.
It could still be built today, I suppose. There's nothing preventing the TA from installing another bellmouth to do it - except $$$, that is.
Right! And that was the reason why the money was appropriated! The money was not appropriated for the purpose of utilising it in the manner it is being used as of 12/10/01. That is the precise reason why I think the money could have been used elsewhere more wisely: a new tunnel for Manhattan Bridge replacement. I fully realise my post belongs in Fantasy SubTalk however!
"Right! And that was the reason why the money was appropriated!"
No, the money was NOT appropriated (not enough of it). That's the whole problem. There wasn't enough money in the pot to accomplish it.
"The money was not appropriated for the purpose of utilising
it in the manner it is being used as of 12/10/01."
Wrong again. Like I said, you need to do some homework before you post, so you can deal with facts. A local connection to Queens Blvd. was always an option in the plan, so the connection that was built could just as easily been opened in the 1970's given sufficient funding.
"That is the precise reason why I think the money could have been used
elsewhere more wisely: a new tunnel for Manhattan Bridge replacement."
It could also have been used to start building a tunnel to Staten Island. Neither project would help Queens commuters, who were the intended beneficiaries of the money. The 63rd St Connector as built today is the one that actually fulfilled one of the objectives of the original plan.
The bellmouth is there for the route to and through the Sunnyside yards,so a line could be placed going east [see the specs for the coonector] I wonder if the T.A. will extend the row along with the Long Island Railroad's new East side line?
They could. The trench for the East Side Access tunnel is being dug in the yard now. The existing LIRR tunnel extends just to the yard now, and must be connected to the Main Line and Port Washington branch.
This is one of those projects that should have been completed in the 1970's, were it not for the city's financial collapse.
Wouldn't it be nice to be on a Manhattan-bound express and NOT have it come to a screeching halt waiting for tunnel clearance?
They could. The trench for the East Side Access tunnel is being dug in the yard now.
Doh! I never realized it ... but in fact, if they're trenching under Sunnyside now for the LIRR tunnel ... how can they NOT do a two-level tunnel for the Super Express?
Wow.
But you gotta know they aren't going to do any such thing. This project isn't mentioned anywhere on their website, or in any study since the 1960s that I know of. And I have to think that some SubTalker would have referred to it by now.
Another chance for better service being lost right in front of our eyes?
Aaaarrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Write to them and let them know. You have nothing to lose. The East Side Access project doesn't interfere with it - after all, the Super-Express would be headed for the surface and its own ROW while the LIRR tunnel rises slowly and merges with existing LIRR ROW (actually, several new tunnels will be needed under the yard).
The only issue is money. If you want this, MTA has to propose it for an upcoming Capital Plan.
Write to them and let them know. You have nothing to lose.
I'm saving my fire for the issues that impact me personally. Selfish, I know, and guilty, but it's for my own mental health. But I bet the many, many Queens residents on SubTalk may feel differently.
The East Side Access project doesn't interfere with it - after all, the Super-Express would be headed for the surface and its own ROW while the LIRR tunnel rises slowly and merges with existing LIRR ROW (actually, several new tunnels will be needed under the yard).
Since the LIRR trains and SuperExpress trains would enter the tunnel bellmouths directly above/below one another, I have to think that the SuperExpress needs to be tunneled under the yard just as the LIRR does. Sure, it would emerge parallel to the LIRR alignment rather than switching/flying under/over into it ... but you still gotta get it across Sunnyside to the 63rd Street tunnel, no?
(Would they do a crossover switch for the Super Express, or a proper flyunder? It could get hairy with the Queens Blvd. line traffic if they tried flat crossovers .... )
What transit issues affect you personally?
Rmember that if you support somebody else's issue, maybe that somebody else comes back and supports yours...you never know.
What transit issues affect you personally?
Huh. Interesting question. Mostly subways Manhattan 42nd Street to Battery Park, esp. Second Avenue line (I live on Third). Metro North Hudson Line (would really have liked them to extend it to Rhinecliff, but I understand why that died). LIRR south shore line in the summer (love the new bilevels, thank god, but still hate Jamaica). And the Ulster & Delaware Railroad and the three tourist RRs along its length.
Aside from that, random infrastructure stuff that interests me, like 63rd Street (which is where this comes in). Wrote an article on it in about 1992 and read the entire DEIS. Fun stuff.
What are yours?
Remember that if you support somebody else's issue, maybe that somebody else comes back and supports yours...you never know.
I know, I know. [sigh] Got less energy these days. But I know all about coalition-building from activist days in late '80s/early '90s. I think in some ways I've had it burned out of me. I pick my issues very carefully now, for peace of mind.
Well, I served on the borough prez' Second Av task force until I relocated to Philly in '01, and I still keepin touch with the MTA on that one. Read the DEIS, testified in front of Sheldon Silver's committee, secured publifc support for 2nd Av from certain Queens pols and helped the Straphangers leaflet on the subject. So it is near and dear to my heart.
You have your hands full with that! I encourageyou to keep writing to them - 2nd Av will happen.
I spent on a lot of free time on AirTrain, too, over six years. Got a lot of satisfaction from that.
A partner and I once obtained an exclusive license from the TA to do a computer game based on the map and created a computer game called RIDE AND SEEK. Ran on the Atari ST and IBM PC, but our potential publisher backed out because of changing market conditions. This was back in 1990-91.
Good grief, my typing stinks!
Well, I served on the borough prez' Second Av task force
Huh. I know exactly ONE City Councilperson (a holdover who wasn't term-limited out). Wonder if that would get me anywhere? I'd certainly be willing to serve on such a Task Force. Thoughts?
I still keepin touch with the MTA on that one. Read the DEIS, testified in front of Sheldon Silver's committee, secured publifc support for 2nd Av from certain Queens pols and helped the Straphangers leaflet on the subject. So it is near and dear to my heart.
Clearly! Most of my activities of that ilk have been for other causes. Transit is one thing I haven't done a lot of advocacy for. I follow it for fun, I s'pose.
I encourageyou to keep writing to them - 2nd Av will happen.
Stubway first? Wanna handicap the 2 downtown alignments?
I spent on a lot of free time on AirTrain, too, over six years.
Yeah, that one interests me too. Thoughts on through-running from Penn?
The Stubway is going to happen first. That's reality. We either accept it at this point, reminding the TA that the lower half must be built too, or we protest and end up killing the whole thing - not a good idea.
MTA just visited them in December and went through what the planning options were for lower Manhattan.
Contact the Manhattan Borough President's Office. They are located on the 19th floor of the municipal building at One Centre Street, zip code 10007. The phone number is listed in your phone book.
Introduce yourself. Tell them how much you care about this. After all, you are one of the Prez' constituents. They want to know your opinion on the subject. Tell them a bit about yourself and ask how you can be helpful to the task force.
You can write a letter (send a copy to your city councilman and your state assemblyman and senator, please. If you don't know who they are, your councilman's staff can tell you, based on your street address.And write to the Governor). Send by postal service, not email. Email in politicians' offices tends to be deleted wholesale unless the recipient knows it's coming and wants to read it.
AirTrain to Penn? East Side Access needs to be completed first.
Ulster and Delaware RR is a transit issue? Is there the slightest chance on earth of getting actual trains service that goes somewhere (not tourist sightseeing trains) on that line?
I wouldn't mind seeing train service to Stamford NY again (I know people who rode it, but they're getting pretty old by now), but I would think there's not a chance.
Ulster and Delaware RR is a transit issue? Is there the slightest chance on earth of getting actual trains service that goes somewhere (not tourist sightseeing trains) on that line?
Nope! But it falls into the same category in my mind. It's just the way my head's organized ... "Rail Stuff" and "Other Stuff".
The bellmouth is there for the route to and through the Sunnyside yards,so a line could be placed going east [see the specs for the coonector] I wonder if the T.A. will extend the row along with the Long Island Railroad's new East side line? I believe the tunnel ends at the eastern side of Northern blvd at the old T.A. building.
Correct. That building is being or was just demolished to make way for extending the tunnel.
<<<"It could still be built today, I suppose. There's nothing preventing the TA from installing another bellmouth to do it - except $$$, that is.">>>
There IS a bellmouth just east of 21 St/Queensbridge, pointed southwards. I saw it myself when I rode an R32 F through the line a few weeks ago.
Cool.
Nobody is denying the benefits of the current 63rd. St setup. But with the amount of money spent in building it, were these benefits worth it? Especially since we STILL don't have any 2nd Ave. subway?
Worth every penny, especially since there were no fiscally realistic alternatives in the 1990's,and since the current project doesnot preclude in any way further development of subway options in Queens.
Redirecting the money to a Manny B replacement has not been shown to be cost-effective for Brooklyn, and wouldn't help Queens at all. If money were no object, I think new subway tunnels to replace Manny B service would be great. But so would subway or SIRTOA service from Penn Station or GCT to Staten Island. The Manny B repairs are adequate for the task.
As o Second Av: that project is near and dear to my heart, and I'm very glad that engineering is moving forward. You want it built? Take some of your passion and energy and write letters to your elected officials, and to the Governor, and organize your pals to do the same, and tell them that building the subway is one of the ways their constituents will judge whether or not they should be reelected. Don't let up until that tunnel-boring machine starts chewing dirt. And then don't let up anyway.
I agree. Beyond thw flexibility it allows should 53rd or 60th Sts. become blocked, the new 63rd. St. tunnel as it's used today was a waste of resources. The service increases allowed by this new tunnel could've been made by simply operating the 60th St tunnel to it's fullest capacity.
The problem with the 63rd St tunnel is that it was part of a grand new subway line. The crisis in the 70's spoiled that, but in 89 they were left with the tunnel to nowhere, so they opened it to Queensbridge, so what they did after was the lesser of two evils. It was there, so why leave it ending at Queensbridge they connected it to Queens Blvd. Not ideal, but better than just letting it sit. Maybe oneday it will get better use, but what they are doing is better than just letting it rot, or just ending at Queensbridge.
How long did the tunnel sit (between 57th/6th and Queensbridge) largely complete but unused? I'd been under the impression that beyone sinking the river tubes, pretty much nothing got done between the early 70s and mid 80s........
That's correct.
Funding to complete the 63rd St line to 21 St and put it into operation was included in the Capital Plan covering 1982-1986, if I am not mistaken. The capital five year plans were a new concept, and finally allowed a rational, sustained funding process for the subways. The line was finally opened in 1989.
That's a fallacy often repeated here; an assertion with little basis in fact. the 60th Street tunnel cannot fulfill the mission for which the 63rd St tunnel was designed.
The original 63rd St plan always included a local connection option, and this, in fact was built. The bypass track was not, but nothing prevents MTA from adding it should there be sufficient demands and available money.
I believe people would ride a bypass line, but an even better investment would be a new subway line running north of Queens Blvd. to areas of the city whose residents must trudge to Queens Blvd. to catch a train.
The re-route flexibility, the opening of Roosevelt Island to redevelopment, and the successful introduction of new service to an underserved borough speak for themselves.
For Queens IND riders, operating 2 60th St lines along the local tracks would meet the capacity now being met on all 4 routes. It doesn't address the additional service along Sixth Ave, though. But the 63rd. St tunnel was built to improve Queens subway service, so that's irrelevant to this discussion.
"For Queens IND riders, operating 2 60th St lines along the local tracks would meet the capacity now being met on all 4 routes."
No, it would not. Chris, it's patently illogical to even consider an argument like that. It's false on its face. It's mathematically impossible to recreate the same Manhattan-bound service with an extra tunnel by service changes in the 60th Street tunnel. With G service withdrawn from Queens Blvd., there's more physical space to push trains through to Manhattan. That's the key, and it would have been meaningless without the extra tunnel.
Service frequency is also affected by rolling stock. When rolling stock increases, service frequency in all tunnels can increase.
But of course you know all that already, don't you? You just like giving the rest of us a hard time. :0)
Note that if the 60th Street tunnel were not also fed by the Astoria N, Chris would have a good point. Without the Astoria train, you could increase service through existing tunnels without building a new connection.
But of course you know all that already, don't you? You just like giving the rest of us a hard time. :0)
No, I'm dead serious.
If you rerouted the W to Forest Hills instead Astoria, the local tracks would have exactly TWO fewer trains per hour during the rush hours as they now have with the V.
And what if MTA simply replaced the W's with more N's? Net effect: you still have two lines feeding into the 60th Street tube. So you haven't solved anything.
There is another issue here, and it's similar to what happened with AirTrain. The city set aside money to fix the Manny B. It comes from a pot of money outside MTA's budget. So MTA gets the Manny B fixed for free (from the agency's point of view), vs. MTA having to pay for a new tunnel.
Similarly, AirTrain was built from a non-general tax fund, the PFC, while anything MTA did would have come from its own budget (2/3 of Jamaica Station rehab will still be MTA money, though).
So it's understandable why MTA looked at this and said, "why should we pump $3 billion into a new tunnel, when the city will fix the Manny B anyway?" I would have made the same decision.
Even if I didn't like the Connector project, I still wouldn't have necessarily spent money on a new tunnel to replace the Manny B - I might have done some other project with it, like extending the F train further up Hillside, or accelerating the rate of construction on LIRR's East Side Access project.
And what if MTA simply replaced the W's with more N's? Net effect: you still have two lines feeding into the 60th Street tube. So you haven't solved anything.
Perhaps I didn't make myself more clearer. Diverting another line like the W gives Queens IND locals 2 routes, with 2 fewer trains per hour over the current R/V configuration. This witn no 63rd St. connector.
This configuration would work best when both sets of tracks on the Manhattan bridge working, as some increase over current N service would be necesitated to prevent crowding on the Astoria line.
Yeah, Queens is slightly better served witha 63rd St. tunnel. But was the monumental cost worth the benefits? I think not.
rONINbAYSIDE:"And what if MTA simply replaced the W's with more N's? Net effect: you still have two lines feeding into the 60th
Street tube. So you haven't solved anything."
cHRIS"Perhaps I didn't make myself more clearer. Diverting another line like the W gives Queens IND locals 2 routes, with 2 fewer
trains per hour over the current R/V configuration. This witn no 63rd St. connector."
If you cancel the N from Astoria (or if Osama Bin Laden had done that for you), then your plan works. Otherwise it doesn't.
"This configuration would work best when both sets of tracks on the Manhattan bridge working, as some increase over current
N service would be necesitated to prevent crowding on the Astoria line."
Any configuration involving 6th Ave and Broadway service works better when the Manny B is in full operation. Bring it on!
As to your assertion about 63rd St service, your own posts prove you wrong!
If you cancel the N from Astoria (or if Osama Bin Laden had done that for you), then your plan works. Otherwise it doesn't
Sure it does. If you run the N, R and the "new" Queens IND local route at 6 minute headways, that would mean 30 TPH, something the 60th St. tube can handle (heck, it did in 1986-88).
"Sure it does. If you run the N, R and the "new" Queens IND local route at 6 minute headways, that would mean 30 TPH,
something the 60th St. tube can handle (heck, it did in 1986-88)."
That's just chicanery, and you know it. Well, if you run those trains, combined, at 15 minute headways, you can create two more new "trains." And if you put all those trains at 30 minute headways, you can allow railfans to walk through the tunnel in between trains to marvel at the graffitti on the walls. All without the 63rd Street connector.
But if you want to run the N and the R every five minutes, esp. during rush hour, as could happen when enough new subway cars show up, then your plan is toast. It's toast now, actually.
The MTA knows that, of course. Like I said, you just posted on this to amuse yourself. And me. :0)
In fact, I beleive that right now the line to Ditmars has about 12 trains per hour and they're actually getting reasonably filled up.
From 8-9 AM weekdays, 6 N trains and 7 W trains are scheduled to leave Ditmars Boulevard, for a total of 13.
David
10 trains to Astoria would be adequate.
As some people fail to see, the idea of running 2 60th St. routes on Queens Blvd. is not without it's drawbacks. But compared to spending billions of $$$ to build a new tunnel, it's much more cost effective.
30 TPH is possible through 60th St. The division of trains between Astoria & Forest Hills is negotiable. Even if it's 18/12, this still doubles the amount of Manhattan bound local service to Queens Blvd than the pre 12/17/01 R/G configuration. All without one dollar spent on infrastructure.
"10 trains to Astoria would be adequate."
For now, according to you. Even if we take your word for it (we don't) Astoria may need more in future; it's a place where people are looking to go for cheap rents and good digs. The presence of the N is a big plus.
"As some people fail to see, the idea of running 2 60th St. routes on Queens Blvd. is not without it's drawbacks. But
compared to spending billions of $$$ to build a new tunnel, it's much more cost effective."
The 63rd Street project of the '90s finished an unfinished project. Most of the tunnel was already there (and in use) and the LIRR tunnel needed to be extended anyway. Some of the money would have been spent on the LIRR project anyway. So it was cost effective either way. And the total cost of the entire project, including the LIRR tunnel, from the '60s until now, contrary to your badly misinformed post, was $1.5 billion, not multiple billions.
"30 TPH is possible through 60th St. The division of trains between Astoria & Forest Hills is negotiable. Even if it's 18/12, this
still doubles the amount of Manhattan bound local service to Queens Blvd than the pre 12/17/01 R/G configuration. All
without one dollar spent on infrastructure."
Even if your numbers are correct, the 63rd Street project allows major increases in service over and above your proposed services. Your proposed service levels are inadequate for current demand in Queens.
Nice fiction you write, though. I'm just glad you don't balance my checkbook...
The 63rd Street project of the '90s finished an unfinished project. Most of the tunnel was already there (and in use) and the LIRR tunnel needed to be extended anyway. Some of the money would have been spent on the LIRR project anyway. So it was cost effective either way. And the total cost of the entire project, including the LIRR tunnel, from the '60s until now, contrary to your badly misinformed post, was $1.5 billion, not multiple billions.
I believe the extension from 21 St Queensbridge to the Queens IND was more than $1.5 billion. Where'd you get that number?
Even if your numbers are correct, the 63rd Street project allows major increases in service over and above your proposed services. Your proposed service levels are inadequate for current demand in Queens.
Inadequate? It's a 20% increase in Manhattan bound service than pre V train service levels. I'd rather have this AND a 2nd Ave line, at least above 63rd. St. That would benefit more people in a more significant way.
The cost of the 63rd Street Connector project, which started in 1995 and included the extension of the LIRR tunnel, was $645 million. This is the actual budget spent on the project and was released by MTA.
The original 63rd Street extension to 21 St actually cost $898 million dollars. This information was published in the NY Times and other papers, and you can get it from the MTA as well, if you ask.
If you cancelled the Connector project (645 million) you would not have nearly the amount of money required to build a Second Avenue subway above 63rd Street. You would have enough money, however, to build an N extension to LGA, or perhaps to lengthen the F train in Queens by a mile and a couple of stops up Hillside Avenue.
That's the problem with your post - your post demonstrated an extreme misunderstanding of what things cost. Your reliance on existing tunnels to provide more service as opposed to finishing the Connector limits expansion options to a borough which actually needs more.
And no, your solution would not increase service 20%. It would reshuffle existing trains and maybe make them a little more convenient - but in the end we'd have to build that tunnel anyway.
That's the problem with your post - your post demonstrated an extreme misunderstanding of what things cost. Your reliance on existing tunnels to provide more service as opposed to finishing the Connector limits expansion options to a borough which actually needs more.
I did not support the idea of not "finishing" the 63rd. St connector. Once it was started in 1970, then the die was cast. I was trying to show why the entire project to begin with was a waste of money.
Reguardless of the final cost (and I still am not sure your numbers are accurate about final costs), the fact remains that Queens Blvd service to Manhattan could've been significantly increased without any 63rd. St tunnel.
If you don't believe my figures, check the NY Times archives, or write to the State or the MTA and ask for references to MTA's financial reporting and/or the Capital Plan accounting from the mid-1980's - it's right there.
And as far as the project itself goes - well, you're entitled to your opinion about it (I think it's nonsense, of course)and I'm glad you post it. Subtalk wouldn't be any fun without the jousting.
The Connector's $645 million was paid out of the 1995-99 Capital Plan. Again, a matter of public record. Do your homework.
The 63rd Street project of the '90s finished an unfinished project. Most of the tunnel was already there (and in use) and the LIRR tunnel needed to be extended anyway. Some of the money would have been spent on the LIRR project anyway. So it was cost effective either way. And the total cost of the entire project, including the LIRR tunnel, from the '60s until now, contrary to your badly misinformed post, was $1.5 billion, not multiple billions.
I believe the extension from 21 St Queensbridge to the Queens IND was more than $1.5 billion. Where'd you get that number?
Even if your numbers are correct, the 63rd Street project allows major increases in service over and above your proposed services. Your proposed service levels are inadequate for current demand in Queens.
Inadequate? It's a 20% increase in Manhattan bound service than pre V train service levels. I'd rather have this AND a 2nd Ave line, at least above 63rd. St. That would benefit more people in a more significant way.
See my reply to your other post. I know you wreote this one because you kept all the italics in the other one.
And Astoria would have under half the weekday service it has now. I've never commuted in rush hours from Astoria, but my impression from posts here is that it sees its fair share of crowds.
Now, you could argue that, while the 63rd Street connection does increase capacity where it's useful, it still wasn't worth the money. Without seeing all the numbers involved (dollar figures and ridership statistics), I'm afraid I can't offer an opinion on the matter. It's clear, however, that it wasn't an entire waste.
The original 63rd St plan always included a local connection option, and this, in fact was built. The bypass track was not, but nothing prevents MTA from adding it should there be sufficient demands and available money.
They even built the bellmouth for that service into the south tunnel wall just before that very complicated set of switches that connect 63rd Street line to Queens Blvd.
The lower/inner roadway, IINM, is Manhattan-bound in the morning rush and Brooklyn-bound at other times. Only two lanes are open. It is kind of odd that the reversible roadway is wider than the fixed-direction roadways; reverse-peak traffic really has a hard time.
I've toyed with the radical idea of flipping such reversible lanes around the city. The vast majority of traffic entering Manhattan in the morning and leaving Manhattan in the evening is made up of commuters, most of whom can use the subway. Traffic going the other way is more likely to be making unsubwayable trips. I'll stop right there before I incite a riot.
You're talking about several billions of dollars. It's not a feasible idea in the foreseeable future (but never say never).
>>>build a cantilever or arch
bridge in its place? <<<
I'd.like NYC to get one of the new cable stayed type bridges...
I'd.like NYC to get one of the new cable stayed type bridges...
Whatever NYC hypothetically gets, it should be distinctive and well built.
A better, yet more expensive plan would be to move the 4 subway tracks into tunnels parallel to the bridge. The bridge can then remain for automobile traffic only. Trains could speed between Canal/Grand & Dekalb.
I thought of the same exact thing, that's a good idea. Unfortunately the politics of city construction just doesn't allow for it to be built.
The only thing that might be built would be a two track line paralell to the bridge if it was part of a bi-level tunnel, with the other two tracks dedicated to extending the LIRR from Flatbush Ave. to downtown Manhattan. That would win the project support from voters and polticiians on Long Island as well as in the city, and give it more clout to get funding in Albany and Washington.
A two-track tunnel wouldn't be perfect, but the MTA and DOT could keep one track open on both sides of the bridge to balance it out (presumably the once closer to the center of the bridge), widen the pedestrian and bike paths on the outside of the bridge, and then connect both the Broadway and Sixth Ave. lines to the bridge and tunnel tracks. That way, during low use hours, the tunnel could be used exclusively, while during rush hours, both the bridge and tunnel tracks could be used between DeKalb and either Canal or Grand and you could get between 50-60 TPH across the East River.
A tunnel near the MB would be much too far north for the LIRR to use to get from its terminus on Atlantic Ave to the financial district in lower Manhattan.
A tunnel near the MB would be much too far north for the LIRR to use to get from its terminus on Atlantic Ave to the financial district in lower Manhattan.
True, although if we're hypothetically going to go to the expense of building new East River subway tunnels ... maybe the vicinity of the MB isn't the best place. Some reorganization downtown might not be a bad thing.
And certainly any new downtown subway tunnel SHOULD have a lower level for LIRR trains.
THIS should set the hypotheses a-flyin' ...!
No, in fact, if you look at the underground tunnel layout in downtown Brooklyn, turnning the LIRR tracks due north towards MetroTech and then running them towards the Manny B near the BQE makes the most sense, because of all the jumble of IRT, BMT and IND lines you would have to contend with trying to extend the tracks straight ahead on Altantic Ave. towards Manhattan (just the IRT and BMT tracks alone next to the terminal would require lowering the current LIRR station at least 35 feet below it's present level just to get across Flatbush and Fourth Avenues). Running it due north at its current location, one level below the street, would get it away from that problem, and IIRC, it could fit above the IND Fulton Street (A, C) and Lafayette Ave. (G) lines.
An LIRR tunnel going across at the Manny B would come into Manhattan east of the downtown area, but that line, coming into the borough around Pike Street, could be turned west on Madison Street and then back south on Pearl past the Brooklyn Bridge to a terminal around Water Street. Meanwhile, the other tunnel tube for the subway lines could be hooked into two of the four tracks coming out of DeKalb, while the other two remain connected to the bridge, and a flying junction could be built at Canal and Chrystie to hook both the existing bridge and new tunnel tracks into both the IND Sixth Ave. and BMT Broadway lines.
That makes sense. Now all that's needed is $$$.
Ah,$$$ -- the age-old problem (well, at least the 60-year-old problem) of New York City mass transit projects. But like I said, if you piggy back a two track subway tunnel with an LIRR extension into lower Manhattan, at least you get the Long Island reps on your side in Albany and down in D.C.
Not a bad idea.
You're idea is absolutely solid! I only wish that the MTA would take up your project.
James:
The Manny B is high up off the East River, so a cantilever bridge is pretty much out of the question.
As far as moving the tracks, that would require building a whole new bridge. Doing so would involve loss of property, as new approach ramps for vehicles would be needed.
Ultimately, the only practical choice for the Manny B (and the Willy B) was to re-build them both right in place. Essentially, that's what has been happening for the past 20 years.
Visit NYC, you'll see what I mean as to why the bridges couldn't easily be re-located and/or completely closed so as to permit more efficient rehabilitation.
The Manny B is high up off the East River, so a cantilever bridge is pretty much out of the question.
How about an arch then?
I accept that if compulsorary purchase of property were necessitated, it would become pretty much unviable.
Temporary disruption caused by construction (such as big traffic jams) is a fact of life. There's been a long history of closing bridges in other large cities, notably London, including when Irish terrorists tried to blow one up.
I can appreciate, however that shipping must not be impeded by any bridge.
If I were you, I'd sue the City of NY, the DOT and the TA for damages because you now have trouble getting to school and your education is being impacted. Use your post as "Exhibit A" and you'll win - even with me on the jury.
Ouch...LMAO
I was going to say he needs all the school he could get, but you beat me to it. :)
-Hank
PS-If I ever meet you, beer is on me ;)
Then I'll buy lunch
Ave X pizza....cheap, greasy and TA approved for car inspectors. Peter
If he's buying Not just Chicken!
Hehe :)
Thanks Dude!
That's a good one!
Arti
I have absolutley no sympathy for you. That's the way it is because of the Manny B service changes. You were spoiled because it used to be 3 services one behind the other, now it can't be done that way because of the single track operation. If you want to keep perfect attendance, get your butt out of bed earlier! Aren't you riding for free thanks to your school pass a good portion of the time anyway?
>>Aren't you riding for free thanks to your school pass a good portion of the time anyway? <<
Yes - I recall something about a gift horse, and looking at its mouth...
Its time to get rid of the stupid Grand Street Shuttle
Because no service is far better than 12 minute headways.
Because it Stands for "Stupid So-called Slowpoke Shuttle train."
Right; if it were before 1985, it would be called the SSSS.
And I don't understand why TA didn't extended B D service to Grand street.
And you've been reading this board for how long?
I will not received a prefect attendants awards for this year.
Don't worry; you're probably still in the running for the prefect grammer awards.
i agree. lets get rid of that shuttle so you can walk the whole way and be REALLY late. =)
If I was you, instead of attendance, I'd worry about your language skills. BTW, I have a suggestion, use the time you wait for the shuttle to read a book, probably it'll do you more good than your school.
Arti
At least you have a good excuse for not having a perfect attendance record for this year. The god damn freaking Grand Street Shuttle. In my own humble opinion it is one of the stupidest moves that the T/A could have made. Why couldn't they at least make it a local train up to perhaps 57th St. so there is at least one more 6th Ave. local for the time being.
#3 West End Jeff
Why would 14th St and 23rd St need a 33% service increase? How could this shuttle turn around at 57th St? Given the infrastucture near Grand and car availability, do you have a better idea?
Remember that 57th St. on the 6th Ave. Line had a place to turn trains around? If not they could run the trains through the 63rd St. tnnel if need be.
#3 West End Jeff
This entire complex is being used by the F. You cannot turn trains here and run the F through it as well.
Except at middle-of-the-night headways, it's impractical to turn trains on the same tracks that other trains use for through service. Since the F runs through both 57/6 and 21-QB, neither of those stations can be used as terminals.
Whenever you think the TA has done something really dumb in terms of routes, take a look at the track maps posted on this site. 99% of the time it's then obvious why they had to do things the way they did. You need space and time to turn trains around, unfortunately.
And it is expensive to rebuild lines with new crossover switches, as the 63rd Street Connector project demonstrated.
And it is expensive to rebuild lines with new crossover switches, as the 63rd Street Connector project demonstrated.
And even more so to do it properly with flyovers and flyunders, which the 63rd Street Connector also had.
How much would a switch just beyond Grand St actually cost?
I'm not familiar with the tunnel layout. If they have to carve a large hole in a tunnel septum, or otherwise redo the tunnel geometry, then the price increases steeply.
Does anybody know what that tunnel looks like?
That's what they did in the late 80's the last time 6 Ave was closed to MB. But remember, the 63rd St connection line was not open yet, and 57 was used as a Terminal. By the way what line terminated at 57 even before all the MB stuff started in the late 80's?
The B terminated there outside of rush hours. The K from Brooklyn in rush hours.
According to the 1979 map, there were two daytime B's, one circle and one diamond. The circle ran between 57/6 and Stillwell, local in Manhattan except southbound in the afternoon rush(!). The diamond ran, rush hours only, between 168 and Stillwell, express on 6th. There were also two overnight shuttles, one in Brooklyn and one between 57/6 and 47-50.
By that time, the 6th Avenue K had been cancelled for good. The late 80's K was the replacement for the AA; it ran on 8th Avenue.
I remember the blue K on 8th. Where did it run between?
The blue K was basically what the off-hour version of the C was....168th to WTC local. The K designation replaced AA when the MTA dropped the double letter route names for locals. It didn't really make a lot of sense in that the K name was associated with the BMT-6th Ave. service, but it was available when they needed to rename the AA. Indeed, when the K was eliminated (in 1987 i believe), it was "replaced" by the C when its service expanded beyond rush hour.
What other points could you extend the Grand St. Shuttle besides 57th Street.
#3 West End Jeff
No I mean what train used to run to 57th before the tunnel opened. 57 was a terminal before that.
From it's opening in 1968 to 1976, the KK terminated there during rush hours, and the B train did all other times, except at night when a shuttle to Rockefeller Center operated (called the "homeless express
', cuz nobody used it but them). From 1976 to 1986, it was always the B, which ran alternate trains to 57th St & 168th St during rush hours (like the A to lefferts/Far Rock). After the first north side closure, the shuttle to Grand St. operated 24/7. In May 1987, the shuttle was cut back to W4th St at night, and the F was rerouted to 57th St during the night (after the N/R terminal switch). In December 1988, Q operated to 57th St weekdays, the B operated there on weekends, and the JFK express operated there weeknights from 9 PM to midnight. F serviced 57th St at night. The openeing of 63rd. St in October 1989 extended all these various lines to Queensbridge.
I thought it was perfect "attendance" instead of attendants...anyway, I just wanna see the tunnels build instead of trains going over the Willy B and slowly fatiguing it. One can only dream!
I'm sure you mean "Manny Bridge".
Hey, I feel your pain. I have one question: Why did the MTA NOT construct a crossover just north of Grand Street? I'm having great difficulty understanding this. If it's there, then both the B and D could terminate at Grand Street and passengers at Grand would have legitimate subway service. Instead they have the mighty shuttle to deal with.
I've just read the other posts, sorry for asking a question that's already been answered. Whenever money becomes an issue, construction seems to lag.
Well, Q Exp. Its not the pain I'm experiencing, I'm Very frustrating with this Grand Shuttle that alway taking so looooonnnnnnnng to depart from a station to run the back and forth.
Hey man, hang in there for two more years (hopefully). Thanks in part to the community around Grand Street (who were highly upset when the North Side of the MB closed), I figure that the DOT will actually finish repairing the North Side in 2 years, as opposed to 11 on the South Side.
Thanks in part to the community around Grand Street (who were highly upset when the North Side of the MB closed), I figure that the DOT will actually finish repairing the North Side in 2 years, as opposed to 11 on the South Side.
I suspect it's less community pressure and more that they actually now know how bad it is underneath, what kind of conditions they'll uncover, how to do the work and what kind of structural retrofits are truly required.
Think about how long the first track took to replace on the Harlem Metro North trestle. The second one was quicker, and numbers 3 and 4 went by in a flash.
If the the TA were able to run the shutte from Grand Street Station to 57 Street-6th AVE back in early 80s. Then I Don't understand Why the TA Can't they run B and D to Grand Street.
You miss the point. Where are those Bs and Ds supposed to turn when there are no switches at Grand St?
In the 80s, the shuttles were single tracked from Grand to Bway-Lafayette, and had to run on a certain headway. I can't see them trying to squeeze Bs and Ds in here without tying the lines up.
-Stef
"If the the TA were able to run the shutte from Grand Street Station to 57 Street-6th AVE back in early 80s. Then I Don't understand Why the TA Can't they run B and D to Grand Street."
To do this, and maintain the current level of B/D service, the TA would have to install a diamond X-over north of Grand St. The cost of this plus the associated signals and controls would be excessive considering the length of time it would be required, the number of people using the service and the utility derived.
Clearly, the difference in service between extending the B & D to Grand St. and the current shuttle service is just a few minutes. From a business standpoint and common sense, it would make more sense for those utilizing the service to add an additional 15 minutes to their commute.
Let me bring up a different question - pure curiosity since it's moot now anyway.
Why didn't they run the 6th Ave Shuttle to 2nd Ave from June through December so that the Grand St shuttle could have gone to W 4th all along? That is, why did they have to terminate the 6th Ave shuttle at Bway-Lafayette?
I'd be guessing but I suppose the simple answer was that the TA was simultaneously building the new terminal at 2nd Ave. They were doing track work as well as significant structural changes to the station. This must have, in part, contributed to the decision.
That makes sense. I didn't realize they had to upgrade 2nd Ave to allow trains to turn around there in quantity. After all, it's not like 2nd Ave hasn't been a major terminal station in the past.
For one thing, barrier walls were put up at the south end of the express tracks at Second Avenue some years ago to keep the homeless out. Those had to be removed.
David
When? Last year, in preparation for a three-year service change?
The MTA should have done this a while ago when they closed the North Side from 1987-89. That way, any repairs necessary for the North Side in the future wouldn't mean the creation of ExpressM's favorite train, the Grand Street Shuttle.
So how much money should the TA have spent so a neighborhood with a greater number and variety of subway stations than any other I can think of could avoid having shuttle service at one of those stations for a period of three years?
Really -- between the J/M/N/R/Q/Q/W/Z/6 at Canal, the J/M/Z at the Bowery, and the F at East Broadway, Chinatown has a vast supply of subway service even without Grand. Grand is eight minutes (in moderately heavy pedestrian traffic) from Canal or two short blocks from the Bowery. It's not like the neighborhood's been cut off.
Chinatown has a vast supply of subway service even without Grand. Grand is eight minutes (in moderately heavy pedestrian traffic) from Canal or two short blocks from the Bowery. It's not like the neighborhood's been cut off.
It's not subway service in general that's the problem. It's that there is an even larger Chinese community just the other side of the East River and the closure of the S side of the MB severed what had been effectively a shuttle between the two.
The reason the community screamed so loudly to get the shuttle extended to W 4th is so they didn't have to change TWICE to get onto the rerouted trains that take them there.
The reason the community screamed so loudly to get the shuttle extended to W 4th is so they didn't have to change TWICE to get onto the rerouted trains that take them there.
Hang on a bit... I thought the re-routed trains over the Manny B ended up on the Broadway Line - Connection with the S at Broadway LaFayette, not West 4th.
If you're at Grand St and want to get somewhere in the subway system, what do you do (other than walk to another nearby station, which is the obvious answer for most people)?
Before December 16, you could only take the shuttle to Bway-Lafayette, where your only choices were the F and the 6th Ave shuttle.
Now at least you can also take the shuttle to W 4th St, where you have the A, C, and E as well as the F and V.
It's an improvement, though how many people it actually benefits is unclear.
If you're at Grand St and want to get somewhere in the subway system, what do you do (other than walk to another nearby station, which is the obvious answer for most people)?
It's the obvious answer for just about everyone. The Grand and Bowery stations are closer than, e.g., 42/7 and 42/8.
If you're at 91st and 5th or at 31st and 1st or at 37th and 11th and you want to get somewhere in the subway system, what do you do? One thing's for sure: you're a lot worse off than those folks at Grand would be even if their shuttle stopped running and the entire J/M/Z line shut down.
Hang on a bit... I thought the re-routed trains over the Manny B ended up on the Broadway Line - Connection with the S at Broadway LaFayette, not West 4th.
Hmmmmm. I think you may be right, though for a reason different to what you specified. Bway/Lafayette connects the IRT 6 train (downtown only) to the Houston Street INDs F and V (for 1 stop). To get to the Broadway BMT that carries the Q and W, you need to go to Herald Square.
I guess extending to W 4th gave a lot more flexibility to get into anything in the IND system. Ideally the shuttle should go to 34th where you CAN get the Broadway line.
(FYI, in NYC Lafayette has no cap-F ... dunno why, it should, but it doesn't.)
The community also screamed about getting more hours of service to the M line, yet the community does not use it and the TA runs empty trains.
It's not subway service in general that's the problem. It's that there is an even larger Chinese community just the other side of the East River and the closure of the S side of the MB severed what had been effectively a shuttle between the two.
No it didn't -- it just moved the Manhattan end of the shuttle from one point in Chinatown (Grand) to a different point in Chinatown (Canal) eight minutes away. Overall service from Chinatown to Brooklyn is better now, with the M providing an additional option very close to Grand.
The reason the community screamed so loudly to get the shuttle extended to W 4th is so they didn't have to change TWICE to get onto the rerouted trains that take them there.
The only people who had to change twice are those who lived directly at Grand and refused to walk even two blocks to the J/M/Z (which would necessitate at worst a single transfer, at Canal, DeKalb, or Pacific).
The shuttle extension is useful for reaching other IND lines but it doesn't change a thing for BMT connections.
Does anyone use the shuttle to get from Chinatown to the Brooklyn BMT? I doubt it. It's more useful to get uptown and to connect to the Brooklyn IND lines.
In my opinion, the MTA should spend a little more money on places where people ride the trains. Grand Street used to be a very busy station before the North Side closed. Those around Grand generally do not use Bowery partially because the J, M, and Z trains are perceived to be slow trains and partially because a good number who commute to/from Grand come from the old BMT Southern Division (Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, 4th Ave etc...). Also, we must remember that Grand Street Station sits in the middle of an area where there are many small businesses. The E. Broadway station in comparison is only on the border of Chinatown. Canal Street is a good walk from Grand Street. By cutting the North Side of the MB, these businesses must now rely on an infrequent shuttle train, or shuttle busses (which tends to get tied up in traffic) to get their employees to work. A crossover switch north of Grand would have definitely helped here.
I agree. But with the Manhattan bridge rehab in it's closing stages, the expense isn't justified. Had they know it would last almost 20 years back in 1986, this switch should have been built then.
What if 20 years down the line the MB needs another paint job, or if something else goes wrong with it? Yeah, the switch would be expensive, but in the long run it would help those around Grand avoid future shuttle adventures.
They did not build one during the lasttime that the north side of the bridge was closed, so I do not figure on them building one now, unless the idea hit them like a bolt from the blue.
In my opinion, the MTA should spend a little more money on places where people ride the trains. Grand Street used to be a very busy station before the North Side closed.
Only because trains from Grand ran directly to Brooklyn. Now Canal fills that role, and Canal is the very busy station that Grand used to be.
Those around Grand generally do not use Bowery partially because the J, M, and Z trains are perceived to be slow trains and partially because a good number who commute to/from Grand come from the old BMT Southern Division (Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, 4th Ave etc...).
The M takes about 15 minutes to get from the Bowery to Pacific. The W takes 11 from Canal. Once again, perception is the enemy. And, besides, how could any possible improved Grand Street service, even if it ran every 30 seconds, get passengers to the BMT and over to Pacific in less than 15 minutes? Those going to the Southern Division either use the M from the Bowery or walk over to Canal. Anything running out of Grand goes the wrong way, and nothing will change that until the DOT finishes its bridge work.
Also, we must remember that Grand Street Station sits in the middle of an area where there are many small businesses.
So does Canal. So does the Bowery (which is two blocks from Canal).
The E. Broadway station in comparison is only on the border of Chinatown. Canal Street is a good walk from Grand Street.
Eight minutes on a moderately busy Sunday afternoon. I timed it last summer. It's less, obviously, for those who live or work between the two stations. And for those who prefer not to walk, the J/M/Z two blocks away is the best way to Canal -- not a shuttle that runs north from Grand, and (except late at night) not a shuttle bus that gets stuck in traffic. The transfer at Canal is easy in both directions now that the direct NB staircases are open.
By cutting the North Side of the MB, these businesses must now rely on an infrequent shuttle train, or shuttle busses (which tends to get tied up in traffic) to get their employees to work.
The ones going north use the shuttle. The ones going south walk to the Bowery or Canal.
A crossover switch north of Grand would have definitely helped here.
It would have helped, slightly, those bound for midtown Manhattan and Queens. It wouldn't have done a thing for those bound for Brooklyn.
Still planiing to be in school in 2004???
Perhaps a little longer with that wonderful grammar of yours.......where's the red pen????
One other thing ..... get up earlier
And ever since the that "S"tupid "S"huttle settle in. I've been late to school at least 6 time which I no long have prefer attendants. Thanks to the "so called" "S"tupid Shuttle I will not received a prefect attendants awards for this year.
Sorry for your story. Is the Grand St. shuttle the only way to get to school?
Boy, I can't wait til 2004. By them I hoped the TA will completely destroyed that shuttle for good. Now why TA named Grand Street Shuttles as an "S" train. Because it Stands for "Stupid So-called Slowpoke Shuttle train." Even the 42nd street shuttle are fastered than that stupid train. And I don't understand why TA didn't extended B D service to Grand street. I sured it will make commuter who uses 6th Ave line an easier way.
Do you believe now that monkeys can better operate on the Subway than the T/A? (It's a joke)
Enron's bookkeeper lives -- in New York City and State. More debt, all off balance sheet. You know how that ended up at Enron, and in Nassau County.
Some of the solution's proposed for the City -- lag payroll (a loan from employees), holding bills (a loan from suppliers), "refinancing." All these mean more spending with no services later on. Next thing you know, they'll be doing the Lindsay thing -- paying for a month of this years spending with next year's taxes. Then two months.
Not at the TA, please. The capital plan borrowing is bad enough already. I think the fare should be raised in proportion to the TWU contract, with any excess due to productivity gains poured back into the system.
To encourage people to travel off peak, I'd raise the fare during rush hours only -- to $2.00 for a start. That would be $1.81 with the 11 for 10 bonus, up from $1.37 now. In the afternoon, peak hour fares would only apply to those boarding in the center of town -- Manhattan, Downtown Brooklyn, Long Island City, the Hub -- not for those coming in on empty trains.
Assuming 40 peak hour work trips per month, peak hour travel now accounts for $54.80 of the $63.00 monthly card. So raise it to $80 -- keeping the remaining charge for off-peak the same.
All of these tax cuts and fare freezes are being paid for with debt, at the federal, state and local level. Some of the debt is hidden, off the books. We'll all be better off just facing up to things.
Of course, coming from me, a person who does not pay for subway service, that's easy to say but I agree that the fares should be raised. I think instead of giving unlimited discounts, it's time that the fare structure be more responsive to the needs of the service.
For example:
Eliminate the unlimited ride cards & impliment a fare structure that charges:
Full fare for peak travel periods (not necessarilly maintaining the $1.50 fare).
Full fare anytime for people not using metrocards.
A small discount for mid-day off-peak service.
Another larger discount for evening and night service.
Eliminate the unlimited ride cards & impliment a fare structure that charges:
That goes for employees too, right? :-)
The first necessity should be to get some reliable data on how each type of fare payment is used. Next, how has the unlimited fare changed riding habits? Are these changes desirable?
There are some federal tax breaks for the unlimited cards. Should the TA forego this fare subsidy for it passengers?
"That goes for employees too, right? :-)"
Absolutely not. From the moment I board the train in the AM until I get off at night,I'm working.
So am I. Even on non work days. When I ride for free, I am another crew member. While I do not interfere with the operation of the train, I recently assisted a crew of rookies on the E on a Saturday nite who had PA problems and a loss of t/o indication. Just last week, I was on an R46 V train with a panel which somehow opened and was hitting the customers which I was happy to lock up.
Amen, Another dedicated transit worker... I carry my RTO radio, keys, reverser and cheater handle with me. I also have LIRR keys and a plug for their vent valves (incase the conductor doesn't).
I almost always carry my keys; when travelling by myself I shove a vest and radio in my bag.
Me too!!!! Gloves, vest, extra helmet, charged phone, keys, speed brake/cutter and reverser, tools and flashlights. Seperates the men from the bois. When I started, the crew called me 'Inspector Gadget' and I was upset...it's now a term of endearment. CI Peter
All city workers should get a pass as part of their pay. And take away those damn parking spaces!
The Federal Reserve reimburses transit commutation for my wife.
I don't have a parking space except for what I can search out for here on the upper East Side of Manhattan. My car is laid up and the problems getting to my yard on the subways are MANY!!!! Every governmental employee should have benefits to enable them to provide emergency services WHICH they should be taught and required to provide. Many TA employees hide in the corners of the subway cars so as not to be noticed: I ride nearby the T/O or C/R and they notice me...I don't announce myself. One T/O opened the door for me upon hearing the unique CI/RCI key jingle.....told him I'm off duty and there for the ride home. Just knowing I posses necessary emergency skills is a really, really good feeling, especially on MY trainsets. CI Peter
I too consider msyelf on duty anytime I am on the system or any railroad. I have assisted NJT crews with station overruns when doors opened to air instead of platform.
To the poster who wants our pass canceled- do you have free parking at work? I think we should abolish free parking. Discouint cafetrias? Close the cafeteria.
The pass was granted in lieu fo a previous pay raise. I am a lunch
relief and have 10 stops on my new schedule. Why should I have to pay 12 fares (1 to enter the sytem and to go home and 10 to go from station to station.)?
I'll go a step further. last weekend i went into the city with a friend for the motorcycle show at the Javits Center. We rode the subway for free. We rode the M34 bus for free. Free transit is a job bebifit. Get over it or get a job with transit.
The cops get to ride free off duty also even if they have nothing to do with transit.
The cops get to ride free off duty also even if they have nothing to do with transit.
That's done for safety reasons. It's not a job perk.
Agreed. Every civil servant who does perform emergency services not only should have access to the subways for free but also be trained, tested and retested to improve and assess their skills. If you're there with the skills and tools...you must serve. Just quietly shirk away from nasty passengers. CI Peter
Yes, until a few years ago they were required to keep their guns with them too.
A friend of mine refused to on the sneak. Having drunk cops with guns was one of the stupidest things that was sanction by the rules.
And yes it is a job perk now that they don't have to carry weapons. I love my friend like a brother but without the cop belt he is only another fat white guy on the train.
Absolutely not. From the moment I board the train in the AM until I get off at night,I'm working.
Really? Is your commuting time part of your weekly hours? How does this impact your supervisory functions? What about the TA's hourly employees? Do their 35 or 40 hours start with their Metrocard swipe at their home station?
Let's keep the apples and oranges seperate. People are different. I carry a radio and tools with me. If there is an emergency or if i see someting that needs to be addressed, I don't look at my watch and say, well I'm off duty so screw it. There may be others who will say that. The fact is I'm salaried annually and the number of hours I work is irrelavent (if I work more). My work hours are adjustable too. As an hourly employee, a supervisor and now as a manager I've always done the same thing. I happen to care, as corny as that may sound.
Hourly employees (and supervisors) are a different situation. Their day begins and end at their reporting location and not when they swipe into the system. If they respond to an emergency situation while in transit, they are entitled to be put on the clock and be paid for their time.
People are different. I carry a radio and tools with me. If there is an emergency or if i see someting that needs to be addressed, I don't look at my watch and say, well I'm off duty so screw it.
I'm not questioning your dedication. What I'm trying to reconcile is why a transit employee should be entitled to free transportation to his primary place of employment while the rest of us should have to declare such a perq as income on our 1040's.
Most employees get perks of one form or another. Would you dispute the fact that subsidized employee cafaterias are perks. Should they be taxed? Should employee discounts at retail establishments be taxed?
Most employees get perks of one form or another. Would you dispute the fact that subsidized employee cafaterias are perks. Should they be taxed? Should employee discounts at retail establishments be taxed?
I would say that all of these are perquisites and that they should be taxed at the same rate as ordinary income. The only exception, under the law, would be that accepting the perq were a condition for continued employment. Thus, are you required to take the subway and other forms of public transit to your primary job location; are you required to eat company supplied food at the company cafeteria and are you required to buy at the company store?
Im school car we were told the MTA preferred us to take it to work.
>>> I would say that all of these are perquisites and that they should be taxed at the same rate as ordinary income. The only exception, under the law, would be that accepting the perq were a condition for continued employment. <<<
That is the wrong exception. The test is if the perq provides a benefit to the employer rather than if it is a condition of employment. An example is the use of a company owned vehicle. A company may offer employees who travel on company business the choice of driving a company owned vehicle (with a low reimbursement for personal use) or being paid milage for the use of their personal vehicle on company business.
Tom
In my case the vehices primary use was for investigative purposes. I was a salaried worker who was always on duty via a beeper. I had to take the car hoem with me whether it was needed or not due to the fact that thier were no overnight parking spots in lower manhattan for the vehicle overnight.
The tax law states that an employedd is responciple for paying for his/her transoportation to and from his/her primary place of business.
In the case of a CPA who occasionaly needs to travel to client sites. The employes may only deduct the cost of travel in excess of miles from his/her primary play of business
For example the cpa lives 10 miles from her office
on tuesday she need to go to client 15 miles from home.
She can only expense 5 miles as a business expense against her taxes.
In the case of the TA employess who reports to the same token boothe every day to work. That is concidered his/her primary place of business thus taxable.
The TA employee should be taxes the cost of $3(or cost to get to work) * number of days worked. The additioal unlimited rides would be the perk.
Thier may be an exception granted specifically to transportation workers that I may be unaware of.
>>> The tax law states that an employedd is responciple for paying for his/her transoportation to and from his/her primary place of business. <<<
I do not have a tax code handy, but my memory of that section referred to automobile expense of commuting to work. Specifically that automobile business milage is deductible, but commuting milage is not. I am not sure that is true if the employer provides another form of transportation. Examples: farm workers being picked up in town and transported on private buses to fields; off shore oil drillers being transferred from shore to an oil rig by helicopter or boat; airlines flying crews from home to a distant city to begin work; TV & movie studios sending a limousine to transport stars to the studio; a parent driving a babysitter home after an evening of babysitting.
Tom
(I would say that all of these are perquisites and that they should be taxed at the same rate as ordinary income. The only exception, under the law, would be that accepting the perq were a condition for continued employment.)
Most employees get untaxed free parking. For equity purposes, the federal tax code now permits employers to reimburse mass transit at up to $100 per month.
The TA has chosen to do so for its employees by providing a pass which is also used for travel on offical business. Since most transit facilities are on the fringe of the city rather than in the center, most transit workers drive to work. They are more likely to use the pass on business than in commutation.
Prior to joining the TA, my beef was the free on-street parking the City of New York reserved for bureaucrats and members of certain unions. While providing free parking, the City refused to particpate in the Transit Chek program. Only recently did the City allow its employees to purchase transit with pre-tax dollars, as allowed by law. The City itself continues to contribute nothing.
Stop weaseling and come up to 239th!!! It's a God Graced miracle...no alternate side of the street parking. Just got my official TA parking permit and I can still park on the street without being a member of certain unions. Lost the use of my car for more than a week.......the Lord does truly bring us chumps down to the ground when we have to ride our trainsets to work. CI Peter
Very tempting. Could I safely leave my car unattended for a week or two at a time?
Probably not. But you could do it in most parts of Staten Island, where there is no alternate side of the street parking.
NO. You have to be very choosy about the spot. A CI had his car hit TWICE directly in front of the yard door. Car is totalled. I could not deal with another week plus on MY subway cars. BUT if you did find a spot in between and left the vehicle unlocked....at least you would not receive a DOT ticket. CI Peter
At least they were not at ENY. Center overhang got someones car.
Maybe you could just get a permit to equip your car with rail wheels and hang it off the end of your subway train...then when your shift ends and your train is back in the yard, unhook your car and drive home.
:0)
I am a loyal energy efficient employee of the TA. My car is equipped with all kinds of emergency management equipment that can provide power and worldwide communications. It also has a human powered scooter which has been clocked at 35 mph on Lexington Avenue (as fast as one of my trainsets.) CI Peter
Prior to joining the TA, my beef was the free on-street parking the City of New York reserved for bureaucrats and members of certain unions. While providing free parking, the City refused to particpate in the Transit Chek program. Only recently did the City allow its employees to purchase transit with pre-tax dollars, as allowed by law. The City itself continues to contribute nothing.
You can be assured that the value of the on-street parking is often well in excess of the $100 monthly limit on Transit Chek. Not to mention the fact that the employees who get it are probably well-paid to begin with, hence least in need of such valuable perks.
They have to pay taxes on it
Most employees get untaxed free parking. For equity purposes, the federal tax code now permits employers to reimburse mass transit at up to $100 per month.
The TA has chosen to do so for its employees by providing a pass which is also used for travel on offical business.
What steps does the TA take to make sure that such passes are used solely for company business and 1 round trip per day to a person's primary place of employment?
When my daughter worked for Lowes, she was able to see movies for free.
My wife works in retail and gets an employee discount.
My brother gets to keep the frequent flyer miles he accumulated when flying on business.
My neighbor gets free cakes from Entiman's
My other neighbor (a travel agent) gets free travel junkets.
There is no stipulation that my pass be used only for business purposes. Are you against all company perks or is it just this one that bothers you?
There is no stipulation that my pass be used only for business purposes.
Might I infer that to mean there are times when you use your unlimited pass without carrying your tradesman's tools? If so, do you think you should declare such use as income?
Are you against all company perks
No, I think that all income (monetary and otherwise) should be reported as income for tax purposes. The full cost of these perquisites has in all likelihood been deducted as a business expense on the corporate income tax form.
is it just this one that bothers you?
What bothers me is that a person who receives an unlimited fare card for free should object to somebody else being able to purchase one.
I think your fare abuse reasoning is a canard. You offer no statistics as to the unlimited card's overall use. You also denied any culpability when it is suggested that you might have participated in the same abuses that you cited.
"You also denied any culpability when it is suggested that you might have participated in the same abuses that you cited. "
The abuses that I alluded to involves two or more people using the same unlimited fare metro-card at different times of the day. This can and does happen. I know of one person who states that he and his significant other do exactly that. On the other hand, I can assure you that no one has ever used my pass but yours truly. When my wife and I go into the city for an evening out, we pay her fare. Aside from the pettiness of doing otherwise - to do so would be contrary to the rules for use of my pass. In addition, the usage of my pass can be tracked. Some employees have given their pass to family members to use while they are at work and have paid dearly for that error of judgement. All that aside, if you are suggesting that I have in the past or do misuse my transportation priviliges, I take extreme exception to it.
Some employees have given their pass to family members to use while they are at work and have paid dearly for that error of judgement.
Seriously? TA employees have been disciplined for misuse of their unlimited passes? REALLY?
I'm impressed. As a *fare-paying* passenger, I like hearing that. A lot.
Our TA pass is not considered an "unlimited" pass. It is solely for the use of the employee, and nobody else. Using an employee pass for another persons benefit is considered a theft of service and normally results in termination of the employee.
Passes are also color coded for male/female. Lend it to your wife/girlfriend and your employment is cooked. CI Peter
Of course, gay couples would have a slight advantage there...
>>> gay couples would have a slight advantage there <<<
But it is patently unfair to transvestite employees. :-)
Tom
That is a problem already. I don't know how they handle it.
Safety is paramount. TA is an equal opportunity employer, male, female, other. Federal law does not recognise 'other.' Disciniplary action is limited....exhibitionism that does not affect RTO or CED safety warrants a transfer to another facility for another chance. Just put up the blinds in the transverse cab.
THey are not showing their stuff it;'s just that they are genetically male and likely have a red pass even if they wear a dress.
And what bathroom or locker do they share??? Isn't this a lot of fun?
One is a TD where there is one bathroom and the other is a C/R who may not have gotten caught. VERY passible, even hot looking but, I always count ribs, I used to work in the West Village.
i don't think these 'guys' would last long in inspection around high voltage and bugs. A CI observed being happy in a transverse cab was wisked away to a more happy place. I guess I have to count my Blessings. CI Peter
Heh. Cardinal rule of dating in NYC, always check the beaver for a kickstand. :)
I always count ribs, I used to work in the West Village.
Whaaaaaa ... ??? You tellin' me men and women have different numbers of RIBS?
No problem. Since "he" is now a "she" and has a new female first name, then the pass is changed to show the new name, and the color of the pass is changed as well. PS: nobody ask me who I am taking about or ask for hints as to the job title that employee works as. No matter what your or my feelings are about it, this person deserves a level of respect and not be the subject of ridicule.
Hope he/she is not my dream of a wimmen car inspector. Problem with portions. CI Peter
>>> Since "he" is now a "she" and has a new female first name, then the pass is changed to show the new name, and the color of the pass is changed as well. <<<
You are talking about a transsexual rather than a transvestite. A transvestite enjoys cross dressing, but may be a heterosexual person having normal relations with the opposite sex, possibly married, who does not want a sex change operation, and does not cross dress on the job. The problem arises if, while the person is off duty, it is reported that a woman was using a male employee's pass, when in fact it was the male employee himself in drag.
Tom
Verrrry interesting. A new pass would only be issued after a very thorough TA medical examination. CIs have a name for the operation that occurs when a cross occurs between a bug and a battery cart: weinerectomy.
That person is one of the kindest people down here. When she gives you a strange move she will explain the how and the why.
She also makes moves that save time and convenience in the long run.
It is amazing how everyone either loves her for her professionalism or does not usually because of her lifestyle choice. When I worked with her there was a C/R that should have been written up for the crude comments he made but she showed a lot of class about the whole thing.
ABSOLUTELY ... and none of anybody's business either. If you do the job, that's all that should matter.
TA is an equal opportunity employer. AC/DC motor tech
>>>>>>>>>The abuses that I alluded to involves two or more people using the same unlimited fare metro-card at different times of the day. This can and does happen. I know of one person who states that he and his significant other do exactly that
The TA does state that an unlimited MetroCard is transferable. So while it may seem like an abuse, it is perfectly legal unlike monthly/weekly LIRR and Metro-North passes which are not transferable. I do use my wife's unlimited pass at times, though it's only used on Queens Surface/Green Bus, and usually on the weekends when my wife doesn't need the MetroCard to go to work.
>>>>>>>>Some employees have given their pass to family members to use while they are at work and have paid dearly for that error of judgement.
I know two FORMER employees who were terminated for this offense. Using your employee pass for another person is the same as backing up your train. If you get caught, it's all over.
The TA does state that an unlimited MetroCard is transferable. So while it may seem like an abuse, it is perfectly legal unlike monthly/weekly LIRR and Metro-North passes which are not transferable.
Even worse (more inconsistent) is the MTA's policy on commuter RR 10-Trip tickets. Metro North (more progressive, better RR) lets me hand over the ticket for me and a friend, and the conductor will clip two fares out of it. (Policy in place for maybe 3 years now?)
LIRR, otoh, very explicitly does NOT allow this. I probably press the point more than I should, but one conductor not only disallowed it but charged my friend the upgrade for buying a ticket on the train.
This kind of idiocy is why people get pissed at the MTA. If they want it to be an integrated system, try to rationalize the policies, damnit!
Boston's MBTA specifically says that more than one person may use a 12-trip ticket... just punch the number of fares required. This makes perfect sense; it makes it easier for the rider and the conductor too. (12-trip tickets are sold at the price of ten trips.)
If you as a TA employee travail upon the subway outside of work travel and you carry some basic tools, you are providing good works that our city desperatly needs. I can provide far more expertise on new tech than RCIs can....well beyond starting a fire with two sticks. CI Peter
"You also denied any culpability when it is suggested that you might have participated in the same abuses that you cited."
All that aside, if you are suggesting that I have in the past or do misuse my transportation priviliges, I take extreme exception to it.
I used the past subjunctive rather than the past indicative to denote decreased possibility and doubt in the writer's mind. I thought you would recognize the subjunctive's application in this instance. I hope your abilities with your tradesman's tools on a train entered with an employee pass be better than your abilities to parse a sentence.
To my grammatically challenged readers, let me unequivically state that I expressed doubt that Mr. Train Dude had abused his employee pass in my previous post.
The abuses that I alluded to involves two or more people using the same unlimited fare metro-card at different times of the day.
Such practices do not appear to be recognized as abuses by NYCT.
In reviewing your original contribution to this thread, I noticed that your primary objection for the public using an unlimited fare card is that disconnects the cost of service from its income stream. Should I infer that your are also opposed to the free bus-subway transfer for the same reason?
"I hope your abilities with your tradesman's tools on a train entered with an employee pass be better than your abilities to parse a sentence."
I don't think I should have to decypher your convoluted english to undersatnd your simplistic point nor do I have to agree with the TA as to their fare structure. As for my abilities with 'tradesman tools', I find that remark condescending as well. The TA finds my skills more than adequate. With your limited knowledge of the subject, I should think that would be testimony enough for you.
Isn't Stephen fun to spar with?
:0)
It would probably be more fun face to face!
Tradesmans tools??? What we carry are the necessary keys and levers to move, cut and disable defective cars. I also carry a ruggedized DVM, have the option of a digital storage scope and bring the basic electronic and mechanical hand tools (and a butane powered soldering iron.) One thing we don't need is fuses..all trainsets, especially my R142s, use circuit breakers. CI Peter
You are letting him win a minor point.
We don't need any tools to be of help. In your case you are not going to go underneath and start pulling stuff apart BUT you could give a better detailed diagnostic if a train behaved badly than RTO.
No, he lost. I'm not a TRADESMAN. What I am is a skilled and licensed communications professional with twenty five years of
experience. It doesn't take much to make a train go before serious yard work is required. CI Peter
Yes, but those who are lifelong suits have nothing but contempt for those who engage in real work.
I just had an experience.....and I learn everday. They can have their contempt for me...they didn't have to deal in the real private industry world...but I have to live with myself and my honor. CI Peter
Tradesmans tools??? What we carry are the necessary keys and levers to move, cut and disable defective cars...
The carrying of "tradesman's tools" was cited by Mr. Train Dude as justification for TA personnel, or at least his, receiving tax free transportation to their primary work location. He did not elaborate exactly how TA clerks, purchasing agents, etc, whould help train operations when carrying such tools on their trips to their primary work location.
Often a tunnel fire will justify your "clerical" folks who are trained in safety and evacuation. If you've never been in such a situation, it's a genuine eye-opener how these folks stand ready on their way to work to assist you out of a disabled train and to the street, crowd control and any number of other safety related issues.
Car inspectors carry tools, so do conductors and motorpersons. I don't think clerical folks do - but they DO carry what is needed in the event of a crisis - their brains. If you've never been in such a situation, God bless ... but if you HAVE, then you'd appreciate that EVERY employee knows how to be helpful and can be called upon ANY time it's needed. And they WILL ...
Don't deny these folks their "free ride" ... sorry, this other thread about the TWU screwage brought back a lot of memories that aren't pleasant.
I am a Station Agent. Most S/As have at least a 400 and 475 key. Some also have an 069 Key. Those 3 are used for many emergency gates for closed part-time exits. I cannot remember how many tiems I have let trapped customers back into the system after they went out a closed exit only turnstile(HET) and then have the street gate locked.
The S/As are like other NYCT employees- we are the eyesd and ears of the system--on duty or off-duty. Recently I was stopped by a sick customer at Broadway nassau who recognized my orange vest. I wenmt to the booth to request assistance then I watched the customer pendign arruival of the Police, I also drafted a customer to walk to the SOuth end to see if an officer was present and as the officer to respond. An officer was there and did assist and verfied the need fro EMS and called in the request to his dispatcher. Many times while off-duty I have answered travel questions and have reported customers walking on the road-bed, etc.
I am also a lunch relief and as such make 10-12 stops a night.IF you want us to pay then end free parking by employers, Make employees pay to use the lunch room or cafeteria (just to enter!)
Most employers have unwritten perks for their employees such as coke machines, candy machines, use of photocopiers, some allow use of phone for local calls. Why should we pay to ride our system? I say expand the pass to include SIRT,LIRR Metro North (In NY State Only- outside you would just pay the CT portion)-They are all MTA!
I'd go further and add NJT and PATH. I have assited NJT crews during emergencies.
Train Dude, what you consider abuse is explicitly permitted by the TA.
Lending or passing your TA pass is a punishable offense. Doing the same with a purchased MetroCard is a violation by the purchaser of the unwritten contract...issuance of a MetroCard is for the exclusive use by the purchaser. Problem is there is no way to check up on who bought the card for cash....and nobody really cares. CI Peter
>>> Doing the same with a purchased MetroCard is a violation by the purchaser of the unwritten contract...issuance of a MetroCard is for the exclusive use by the purchaser. <<<
If the MTA fails to publish anywhere the information that a purchased unlimited MetroCard is for the exclusive use of the purchaser, then it is not part of the contract. A contract is an agreement to its terms. A term that is not disclosed by one party to a contract cannot be a term of the contract, since the other party has no opportunity to agree to it.
Tom
We can milk this issue until the cows come home....the rules are in print somewhere. This is a matter of ethics...you have the choice to do as you wish. CI Peter
>>> the rules are in print somewhere. <<<
Where? Not on the MTA website. I and many others believe the purchased unlimited MetroCard is transferable. I would have no ethical problem with loaning one to a friend (without compensation) if I were not going to be using it.
Tom
I am not a attorney. The matter holds true for almost everything as a matter of commerce: 'purchased for exclusive use.'
>>> The matter holds true for almost everything as a matter of commerce: 'purchased for exclusive use.' <<<
Actually the opposite is true. If no mention of limitation is made, the law assumes the object of a sale is freely transferable.
Tom
Actually the opposite is true. If no mention of limitation is made, the law assumes the object of a sale is freely transferable.
"Services", such as transportation, are somewhat of a special case. However, in the case of the MetroCard, the MTA has specifically advertised that they are transferable under certain conditions, one of which is the oft-cited case of one person working the day shift and another using the card while they work the night shift. (Note that I'm talking specifically about a purchased MetroCard, not a student card or one issued to a TA employee.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's been pointed out many ties that the TA permits it on the subway while the MTA specifically forbids it on the LIRR. The fact was we were talking about raising the fare and getting rid of the unlimited ride metrocard would still be a viable way to do it.
BTW: on my train Thursday evening, a conductor on the LIRR confiscated a monthly ticket that belonged to a woman but was being used by her husband.
Let me add one more point: you can transfer your EZ Pass to another vehicle and get away with it until you get caught. TA employees would not even consider sharing the use of an unlimited ride MetroCard amongst family members...nickels and dimes saved are not worth losing a job over...if the got to court with a family member and they identify you...the explanation for the pink slip will be 'you should know better.' CI Peter
Let me add one more point: you can transfer your EZ Pass to another vehicle and get away with it until you get caught.
Actually, that's not a violation. You have three options there: (1) register the additional vehicles with the EZ-Pass folks, indicating that you are using one transponder for all these vehicles since they are not in service simultaneously, (2) taking the chance of having to pay a fine if the transponder doesn't work when in one of the registered vehicles, or (3) obtaining one transponder per vehicle, all coupled to the same account.
I don't have EZ-Pass, but if I did it would simply be for convenience when driving from NJ to DC and points south, and I would have only one transponder that I would move back and forth as needed (but two vehicles registered with EZ-Pass). (I don't drive into the City often enough to justify one for that purpose - and when I do go in by car it's on the weekend. Going to Branford I take the Tappan Zee - longer but faster than crossing the City.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A fellow CI was busted for unlawful transfer to a rented car. Such petty stuff isn't worth it in my book. CI Peter
Sounds strange, since EZPass will let you use your transponder to pay the tolls while you are traveling in a livery vehicle (taxi, car service, etc).
I have two transponders - one that goes back and forth between my two cars, and one used for towing a single-axle trailer.
Hmmmmmm! I have just (1) 'M' EZ Pass for my bikes. I am not aware that it's a violation to switch it from one bike to another.
Not gotten around to calling EZ Pass yet about license plate changes...they do random checks and you will be fined if caught. I have new NYS emergency service license plates and the old ones are listed with my new ones on registration. Any hassle isn't worth it. CI Peter
they do random checks and you will be fined if caught
Really? I thought that they wanted to be notified of a plate change as soon as possible, but I didn't think that they'd penalize you if you forgot. With New York reissuing plates, this has the potential to bite a lot of people - unless the E-ZPass agencies are in cahoots with DMV. My registration comes up in May, and I hadn't even thought about notifying their service center. (Thanks for reminding me!)
Mark
EZ Pass is a private company doing business with state agencies. IF you get caught the first time, they may (the TBTA officer) might let you slide BUT your transponder might be confiscated and you'll have a bill to pay. Random checks (the funny red light) insures a match between transponder reflections and the license plate.
Wrong. Both E-ZPass and MetroCard (any variety sold to the public at large -- I'm not referring to the kind you have, to school passes, or to elderly/disabled passes) are transferable. The terms of use are posted online.
That is not how the IRS sees it. You work in a deserted area at night your boss buys lunch so you can stay 'on call' part of that lunch is free.
You buy at employee discount, this is not deducted by the store in fact it may help raise taxes as it is usually on already discounted stuff that the store is about to take a bigger hit on.
Don't you pay tax on the 'free' airline seat. It is as available so it does not cost the airline very much extra.
BTW you can be of assistance without tools and I have. Even in traiing for evacuations they almost count on off duty TA and PD people being around to help.
The MTA actually forbids the use of a private vechicle while on duty at least for RTO. I am at the reporting center at PA and pick up a job I am supposed to swipe and go to my place of work then some jobs like the mail, switching or a yard make you go in and out of fare control all day long.
I work in the private sector in a factory, We recieve electronic assemblies in wooden crates. These crates have to be made of high grade lumber to protect the electronics. When emptied, these crates are given to employees. Myself and others use this lumber in household projects. But if you taxed this "perk" it would go away because it would be too expensive for my employer to administer. Also if you taxed TA workers for each free ride,the TA would have to total up each employee's rides and deduct tax based on those rides. This would not happen so the rides would go away. Ron, what perks do you have? are you jealous? DON'T BEGRUDGE THESE PEOPLE THAT WHICH THEY HAVE WORKED FOR. America has the lowest taxes in the industrialized world. what we need is moer progressitivity in our income taxes so that those who receive the top 1 percent of income contribute their fair share for a change. Nothing is more disgusting than tax cut loonies. BE GLAD YOU DON'T LIVE IN EUROPE, THEY PAY TAXES
I'm not jealous.
I currently do consulting, which means I have to create my own perks. On the one hand, I'm beholden to my clients. On the other hand, the way I accomplish the assigned tasks is entirely up to me. My chief perk is that I make a good income with a totally self-programmable schedule. The bad part is, I always have to go trolling for the next client...
Another one like me ... upstate, it's make yer own gig or starve. Only difference is my output gets retailed and is dependent on even stranger whims ... like "an economy" and such. :)
My pass is stamped 'Clerical/hourly.' I never realised that service to my Church would be recognised by TA. Anyone for confessions or annunciations??? CI Peter
I confess that you just made a funny!
Don't get him started or he'll be performing last rites ceremonies on da boids ... :)
Blasphemy!!! I'm only licensed as a lector and chalice bearer so I can't perform a proper burial BUT if you hand me the RPG...CI Peter
Oh come on ... all it'd take is a Louisville slugger to turn boids back to the dust from which they came. :)
One rt does not work. What if you are on the board, they want us to swipe everytime we enter and leave fare control (yeah well I wish for tyra banks).
If there are no seats you have to stand that is the restriction.
I work for a major airline, which carries with it the perk of free unlimited travel to/from anywhere my airline serves. The travel is not taxed if I am the one travelling, but is taxed for dependents, a spouse, or other companion travelling on my pass benefits. I believe the reason for this is that when I am travelling, I am on duty and required to assist or otherwise follow any instruction by ground or flight crew. I travel space-available (I only fly if there's a seat available when they're about to close the door) and have no guarantee that my checked baggage will get there intact, or even get there. My compensation for being on-duty (since slavery was abolished oh so long ago) is the value of the free flight.
I believe the TA reasoning is the same. Having as many TA employees on the property as possible allows for an extra margin of safety and security, as it increases the possibility that a trained and qualified person will be closer to the site in case of an emergency. Also, job applicants are more likely to accept a lower wage if they take into consideration the pass benefits, much like how I took my $9/hr job knowing I would get free flights. This keeps your fares lower (in theory) because less is paid out in wages, and one more rider does not cost the TA as much as is saved. IMO, this is how pass benefits in any travel or transit industry are feasible, and there could be even more reasons I'm not aware of. The pass is here to stay, and it doesn't cost the TA a significant amount of money. Get over it.
--
Ian Penovich
>>> I'm trying to reconcile is why a transit employee should be entitled to free transportation to his primary place of employment while the rest of us should have to declare such a perq as income on our 1040's. <<<
This is not unheard of in other businesses. In most retail stores employees get a discount on merchandise sold there, and hospital employees often get free or highly discounted medical care. Free transportation is a cheap perq for the TA, since the buses and trains are running anyway, so it is cheaper than giving the higher wages necessary to pay for the transportation, and makes it more likely that employees will be on the premises if needed for an emergency. Since the TA can arguably say they get a benefit from the employees using the system rather than driving, there is an excuse for not having the benefit taxed as income.
Tom
Anyone who wants to revoke TA employees free transoportation passes is nuts. Airlines give thier employees free air tickets.
The perk should be reported to the IRS. I once worked for a city agency that issues me a offical car. We had to pick up the cost of transit $3 a day on our taxs. Being in an investigative unit. I'd report to many differnt locations/stakeouts/search warrents etc every day. TA employees should have to pick it up on thier taxes like everyone else.
I'd just wish they require the police to take public trans to work. People living around police stations would certinly bennifit from the reduced amount of double parked cars
Just emagine a maintence worker buying tokens to empty a garbage can inside fare control
I'd just wish they require the police to take public trans to work. People living around police stations would certinly bennifit from the reduced amount of double parked cars
Amen. Amen! A M E N ! ! !
Living across from the NY Police Academy (with a precinct in the back) is clearly a net benefit in my nabe, but oh, the PARKING problems. It ebbs and flows; they park wherever they want til the neighbors complain loud enough, then they get yelled at and abide by the agreement ("cadets park here, not there") for a few months, then it starts over.
Though they do seem to carpool a lot.
Now about requiring the police to LIVE WITHIN the boundaries of the city they serve ... don't get me started. (I'm for it.)
Every police station and fire house have parking areas with signs "Authorized Police Vehicles Only"
Private cars, not being used in police work, parked all through the work shift, with a station issued "Offical" card in the window.
If they get a free ride, whats with the parking perk?
Airline employees fly standby, space available. If a paying passenger comes along, zap, they are off.
G.I.s fly 1/2 fare, space available, must be in uniform. There are perks and abuse of same. Clean up your act or lose your freebees!
avid
Clean up your act or lose your freebees!
Well, I'd agree. The higher-ups in the precincts do try, but a lot of the rank and file cops have an attitude. And not a lot of neighborhoods are gonna bitch until it gets REALLY bad.
Especially since 9/11.
Boomberg should spell it out plain and simple. IF you want the raise you deserve. Require city residence for all new recruits. I would be unfare to require current officers with family and houses elsewhere to pick up and move.
THier are many police and firefighters living in my neighborhood. Lets just say that you don;t have to ask twice to get a situation taken care of.
There's a firefighter who lives across the street from me. shortly after he moved in, he yelled at the kid next door because his friends would come by and honk instead of ringing the doorbell. A week later his friends came by... in a fire truck with all its noisemakers going. The entire block had a fit.
>>> A week later his friends came by... in a fire truck with all its noisemakers going. <<<
Please clarify. "His friends" refers to the kid next door or the firefighter? If it is the firefighter, was it done purposely as an example to the kid next door, or independent of the previous incident?
Tom
There's a firefighter who lives across the street ... his friends came by... in a fire truck with all its noisemakers going. The entire block had a fit.
Pre 9/11, I imagine? Right now the entire FDNY is in a major psychological depression ... friend of mine told me FDNY domestic violence is waaaaay up ... and it's gonna take years. (They lost 3% of their men on 9/11, but 3x that number probably have to go out on disability due to respiratory damage from post-9/11 fires and smoke.)
So I hope your nabe is just a little more tolerant for a while.
(My apt faces Third Ave in Manhattan, and I grew up 5 doors away from a hospital. Sirens are background noise to me! I take it you're in the burbs?)
Don't get me started on that topic......
Stephen, we have already paid for our passes, even though it may not appear so.
Back in the late 1970's amidst the budget crisis, the TA was going to discontinue free transportation for employees. An agreement was reached between the TA and TWU in which a 4% raise was forfeited in order to retain travelling priviledges.
If you do the math and take that 4% and add it up to each raise since then, you'll find that that comes to a big chunk of dough.
So if you take that into consideration, technically we are indeed paying for our transportation whether we use it or not, thus there is no tax liability.
>>> we are indeed paying for our transportation whether we use it or not, thus there is no tax liability <<<
I think you just made Stephen's case for him. If the union had taken a 4% raise in lieu of free transportation, you would be paying taxes on the money received. Therefore what you are getting is valuable and should be taxed as income. That argument fails to take into consideration tax policy which allows some valuable perqs to remain untaxed. Your free transportation is one of them. Another major untaxed perq is medical insurance. As long as the taxing authorities are willing to allow your free transportation to be an untaxed perq, there is no reason for any of the rest of us to gripe. So if, on your days off, you want to do a marathon trip of the entire system, keep the $1.50 in your pocket and enjoy. :-)
Tom
It is almost impossible to figure out what is work related and what is not.
Also it qualifies as DeMinumus, if you look at the IRS regs there are perk that are much better that don't get taxed.
>That goes for employees too, right? :-)
I'd rather take the money.
I would be in favor of a variable fare structure like the one you propose.
#3 West End Jeff
Totally disagree. For someone who rides transit alot the elimination of unlimited rides would double or triple how much I pay.
Alot more people would consider buying cars instead.
I do agree fares should be raised to $2 one way fare as well as increasing price of unlimited ride cards. But eliminating unlimited rides completely would be a disaster, and we've seen enough of that recently.
." For someone who rides transit alot the elimination of unlimited rides would double or triple how much I pay."
As someone who pays taxes, I resent your fare being subsidised to a greater extent that that of my daughter, who works for a living.
Amen!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the unlimted fare could still work, if the MTA has data from their Metrocard turnstiles that can tell them how many times per month the average unlimted card is currently used. If they can get that number, they can then set a fare that would allow for some type of discount based on averge number of trips per month, but not a whopping discount that's possible right now.
As for higher fares during rush hours, it might pass, so long as the fare was uniform across the entire system and not the zoned type of rush hour fare hike WMATA used. That would be considered biased in favor of Manhattanites and against outerborough riders and would cause all kinds of protests.
Agreed! If an increase is needed, increase, but DO NOT ELIMINATE unlimited rides. I'm sure they help tourism, as well as help me personally........
«Another larger discount for evening and night service. »
Why would you differenciate between off-peak and night fares? Night fares IMO are even more of a social service.
Arti
I don't realistically expect that a lower fare will lead to a higher demand for service during the late night hours. My reasons are two-fold. First, for the same reason that phone rates and electric rates are structured the way they are. Charge the least when your usage is the lightest. Second, with a standard 20 minute headway, proliferation of the homeless and multiple slow speed zones for track-gangs, the service is, in reality, worth less.
Unlike phone service (you can't remove trunk lines at night) transit requires staffing and produces even lower ROI during night hours. Reducing fare would serve no purpose.
Arti
...with a standard 20 minute headway, proliferation of the homeless and multiple slow speed zones for track-gangs, the service is, in reality, worth less.
Now there's a subversive concept: the fare should be related to the quality of service provided.
I almost cancelled the posting because I did not want it to be misunderstood. The straphanger's campaign periodically rates lines on what the ride is worth. I disagree with this concept despite the fact that my line was near in the top.
Yeah, I'd just BET hailing a taxi would have been a better deal. Yeah.
They are insane and have few solutions only complaints and demands, kind of like here.
I'd give the ratings greater credibility if the maximum possible rating weren't $1.50. The clear message is that no subway ride could possibly be worth more than the fare.
I don't disagree with every element of the ratings. IIRC, the 1 earned the title of least regular line; I concur.
"Eliminate the unlimited ride cards"
Huh?!? My understanding is that when unlimited cards were instituted in New York, ridership increased dramatically. The last time I checked, the purpose of an urban transit system is not to break even financially but to carry as many people as possible within a reasonable (though NOT necessarily balanced) budget.
I think Qtraindash7 is right that eliminating the unlimited ride cards will drive (pun very much intended) people to use cars more. Of course, people who work in Manhattan or other dense areas of the city well-served by transit aren't going to suddenly stop riding transit altogether and drive to work. But if they lose the option of unlimited ride cards, they may decide to use transit **only** to get to and from work, driving elsewhere on the off-hours and weekends -- exactly when the transit system has the capacity to handle extra riders. Isn't it precisely the off-hours and weekends when ridership rose after the unlimited cards came out?!
"I think Qtraindash7 is right that eliminating the unlimited ride cards will drive (pun very much intended) people to use cars"
The first thing that makes me suspicious of your post is that you think Qtraindash7 is correct. Let's figure this out:
20 mile trip to Manhattan by car: 2 gallons of gas $2.50
R/T tolls = $6.00 Parking $12.00 (estimate) That's over $20.00 per day not including wear & tear on your car, increased insurance, the occasional ticket or even the inevitable accident.
Now, do you really think people are going to give up commuting because of a few dollars every month? If so, how do you explain the packed LIRR and Metro North trains at $200 per month? I wouldn't.
I believe many of the additional rides generated by the unlimited ride card are short off and on hops that would not take place without it.
Case in point, taking the kids to school. It is about a 20 minute walk. Before the free transfer, we'd walk every day. With the free transfer, we'd sometimes take the bus, drop the kids off, and then get on the train, if the weather was bad. Now, with the unlimited ride card, we sometimes take the subway, get off with them, and get back on.
Absent unlimited rides, these trips might disappear. It is difficult to imagine people paying for them. So utility would go down, but revenue would not go up much. Moreover, it doesn't cost the TA much on the margin to provide such rides.
20 mile trip to Manhattan by car: 2 gallons of gas $2.50
R/T tolls = $6.00 Parking $12.00 (estimate) That's over $20.00 per day not including wear & tear on your car, increased insurance, the occasional ticket or even the inevitable accident.
First you forgot to read the rest of the post, where he mentioned that most of the trips were off-peak trips, and then you skew the results in your favor by trying for the most expensive possible trip, one involving tolls and parking fees. Let's also not forget that not everyone lives 20 miles away from their destination. If 20 miles costs $2.50, 10 miles will only cost $1.25 in gas. Now which is cheaper?
What I tried to do was figure the average trip. If you are not happy witht he numbers, drive.
I tried to assume an average trip for an average commuter - going into the city. My commute is 104 miles R/T + $6.00 for tolls. My car averages about 27 MPG and since I don't pay for parking that's roughly $11.00 per day plus the intangibles. Based on $20 round trips monthly, thats $220.00+ by car For that, my R/T commute would be roughly 3 - 3 1/2 hours daily in good weather.
By train LIRR is $200.00 monthly and subway for 40 trips would be $60.00 (if I paid) Commute is about 4 hours but no extra insurance, no tickets and no wear & tear. (no driving fatigue either)Parking is free at my local station. Now, based on those numbers, (not skewed) you can understand why my trains (AM & PM) are SRO every day.
Now if you think a fare increase will force people off the trains and into their cars, I don't think you are looking at the question objectively. Clearly John isn't looking beyond his own self-interests. He doesn't drive and can't afford a car.
I don't believe a fare increase will drive people off the trains and out of their cars, but eliminating unlimited rides will curtail off-peak trips. People will still ride to an from work, but then it many cases it would end there.
Not to mention loss revenues due to fewer trips into the city. A resonable fare increase to cover costs will be accepted by the riding public only if the TA takes all resonable steps to reduce unneccissary costs.
THe TA has increased its revenue due to unlimited ride cars. Many people buy them but fail to use enough rides to make them worth wile
Lets do the math.
Travel to from work only 40 rides per month
Pay per ride total cost $54(1.35*40) assuming 10% free ride discount
Unlimited ride monthly card total cost $63
Rider needs to use 7 more rides per month to break even
Unlimited ride Weekly card (4 weeks * $17)$68
Rider need to use 11 more rides per month to break even
The TA increases revenues if the rider does not take an additional 7 rides.
Unlimited ride cards and free ride discounts help both the riding public and the TA
TA
1) Unlimited ride cards increase averge $$ rider spends per month
2) unlimited ride cards and Free ride discount program = fewer trips to the token booth or mvm reducing cost of good sold
Rider
1) increase usabilty of the transit system;
2) reduces lines at token booths or MVM's
3) Possiblity of reduced cost of transit if frequent user such as low income earners (keep in mind then low income earners frequently have 2 jobs. The unlimited ride cars bennifit them the most)
6.6
Very logical points.
"Clearly John isn't looking beyond his own self-interests. He doesn't drive and can't afford a car."
I presume you're talking about Qtraindash7, because I do own a car and have stated so in the past on this board. Plus my argument in favor of the unlimited fare card has nothing to do with my own interests -- I use a commuter rail monthly pass or 10-ride ticket depending on how many days I'll be out of town in a month.
John B. Bredin, Esq.
You are correct. I was referring to Qtraindash7
What is cheaper?? Lack of agida getting to my yard in 21 minutes versus 1 1/2 hours on the subway. If I'm late, I get docked and chastised. Besides, i need the car for emergency service and still have the insurance and gas bill to pay. CI Peter
Taking public transportation is not always the best option
Some people are so thick headed on this board that they fail to realize that.
Some people go through the hassel of driving in to work because it just makes more sense in thier situation
T H A N K Y O U ! ! ! One of my many supervisors chastised me as crazy for taking the train to work.....'I don't take the train...it takes too long...I don't need to be reminded of my work.' Had to do it because my car was laid up...and I had to ride MY trainsets!!! You can just imagine what went through my mind as I sensed running problems...we were kicked off a #2 R142 because of door indication failures. CI Peter
>>> I had to ride MY trainsets!!! You can just imagine what went through my mind as I sensed running problems <<<
Maybe they should require those in your position ride the trains once a week to check out their handiwork.
In the U.S. Army there is a policy of having the helicopter mechanic who makes critical repairs to a helicopter ride along on the first test flight. It promotes better quality control.
Tom
Lets do the math of my saturday night outing to manhattan from sheepshead bay brooklyn
40 mile trip to Manhattan by car: 2 gallons of gas = $2.50
no tolls(Brooklyn bridge) = $0 Parking(parked on street in times square and chelse)
total cost $2.50 including free bus transfer at sheepshead bay to B36 bus total travel time 45 min - 1.5 hrs
Cost by subway without unlimited ride card
4 people * $1.50 = $6.00 sheepshead bay to union square
4 people * $1.50 = $6.00 union square to 42nds street times square
4 people * $1.50 $6.00 42nd street times square to sheepshead bay
TOTAL COST $18 total travel time 30 min
saving by driving $15.50
My friends and I ussually use our unlimited ride cards to take the train in. Prior to the one city one fare we would not evan have considered driving in. the only reason we did this week was because 2 of the 2 people coming out were teachers who drive to work due to the lack of brookyn queens crosstown train service in our area
I think the fare should be raised in proportion to the TWU contract
Love this as a political move, but to be realistic, what proportion of TOTAL subway expenses are personnel? You gotta factor that in.
All of these tax cuts and fare freezes are being paid for with debt, at the federal, state and local level. Some of the debt is hidden, off the books. We'll all be better off just facing up to things.
I agree. Oh god, do I agree. But I wished that this desire could be translated into political will.
In the end, I suspect that (netting out usual political shrieking) the peoples of NYC would accept a transit hike. The service continues to get better (in MANY places, probably not including the effects of the Manny B closure) and people understand that nothing stays the same forever.
I like $2 peak and $1.50 offpeak. They should keep offering discounts for advance purchase since the cash upfront clearly helps the TA since the incremental costs of added trips owed in the future are essentially zero.
In the 2001 NYC Transit operating budget (I don't have the 2002 budget yet), 73% of nonreimbursable expenses went to labor and benefits. (Reimbursable expenses include positions paid for by the capital program, police, etc.).
David
(73% of nonreimbursable expenses went to labor and benefits. (Reimbursable expenses include positions paid for by the capital program, police, etc.).
The capital program is paid for by big time borrowing. The temptation at the top, and pressure at the bottom, to shift operating expenses to the captial program is certainly there, and the accounting system makes it easy. That's because operating personnel do work on capital contracts all the time, and charge the capital contract just by putting a contract number down on a timecard. I fear that managers may be unrealistically pressured to stay within budget to "save the fare," and, well, if capital projects run out of money all over the place two years from now you'll know why.
This is just one of many games than can be played. Not ordering parts. Not doing inspections. Etc. Millions of the most influential and organized current residents of this state would benefit from going back to the bad old days. They'd be gone to other states before the reckoning -- just like in the 1970s. Be vigilant, and be prepared to SCREAM BLOODY MURDER.
So they're doing the old operating expenses into capital budget 3-card-monty game. John Lindsay and Abe Beame would be proud!!
(Who exactly are the "Millions of the most influential and organized current residents of this state"???)
Actually, this year, because of higher than anticipated revenue and lower subsidies, before 9/11, the TA had planned to use operating monies to fund some capital programs. Of course due to the expenses brought about by 9/11, that may not be possible although much of the infrastructure damage may be covered by insurance.
I didn't know there was insurance to cover the infrastructure. Is there any kind of insurance covering the aquisition of new tech and loss of revenue in A and B divisions?
(Before 9/11, the TA had planned to use operating monies to fund some capital programs.)
To me, much of what counts as "capital spending" in the TA should be covered by the operating budget not debt. Ie. "normal replacement" of X miles of track, about 200 cars, and about 200 buses per year. If they funded ongoing replacement with ongoing revenues, they could borrow to fund system expansion.
The capital program is paid for by big time borrowing. The temptation at the top, and pressure at the bottom, to shift operating expenses to the captial program is certainly there, and the accounting system makes it easy. That's because operating personnel do work on capital contracts all the time, and charge the capital contract just by putting a contract number down on a timecard. I fear that managers may be unrealistically pressured to stay within budget to "save the fare," and, well, if capital projects run out of money all over the place two years from now you'll know why.
Internal accounting controls should be able to stop or at least limit that sort of chicanery. I'm not saying that an impregnable Chinese Wall can be erected between the capital and operating sides, but with a reasonable amount of effort it can be made very difficult and risky to shuffle funds. Now, the fact that there are no workable controls shows to me that the higher-ups don't want to stop the money shuffle, not that they can't.
I agree. Even if you can't see it in the here and now, trying to maintain a low fare as a be-all and end-all has been poison to the New York City Transit System.
I would caution against a higher rush fare because of culture and complication. I'd see a zoned system first.
>>> I would caution against a higher rush fare because of culture and complication. <<<
You need to explain what you mean by that. A peak, or off peak, differential would seem to be the easiest to implement and to understand of all fare plans outside of a general increase.
Tom
In DC people hate the peak/off-paek differential, and there's no culture of having it here. I could see some people fighting with the token clerk over having to pay a higher fare.
A zone fare would be harder to implment, it's true, but I think people might view it as fairer.
Simple implementation would be that the MetroCard would be debit...clicking off the money as it is used. EZ Pass tags work that way IF you travel off-peak. SEPTA charges by distance...your card is required for access and egress. The whole shebang could only work if the masses got more timely travel....ain't gonna happen on museum trackage even with new tech trainsets. CI Peter
>>> In DC people hate the peak/off-paek differential <<<
Why is that? Perhaps the times used are not logical. Here in Los Angeles the buses (but not the trains) have two fares according to time. The base fare for local service is $1.35, but is reduced to $0.75 from 9:00 P.M. til 5:00 A.M. There seems to be no problem with that. I could see more of a problem if the time change were in the mid day hours (10:00 A.M. to 4:00 P.M.) where more people would be traveling right at the time the fare changed. But if it were sold as a discount for the off hours rather than a premium for the busy hours, there should not be strong opposition.
Fare zones based on distance traveled run counter to the "we are all one city" way of thinking. If it costs more to travel from Brooklyn to Manhattan than to travel within Brooklyn, interborough travel will be reduced somewhat, and the local area becomes more of a focal point for all of one's interactions.
Tom
Fare zones based on distance traveled run counter to the "we are all one city" way of thinking. If it costs more to travel from Brooklyn to Manhattan than to travel within Brooklyn, interborough travel will be reduced somewhat, and the local area becomes more of a focal point for all of one's interactions.
The "one city one fare" issue is very important in New York. Any attempt to institute zoned fares for intra-city travel would cause a big political ruckus. Timed fares would be more acceptable, although for reasons stated elsewhere I consider them inequitable.
One big reason, I think, that people don't like the peak/off-peak fare differential in DC is the reason I discovered when I lived there, and didn't like it: The period when peak service is provided is shorter than the period when peak fares are charged. I used to regularly arrive at work later than lots of my colleagues and leave later, so I often rode the Metro between 9:30 and 10, and between 7 and 7:30 or so, and found that even though peak fares were charged, the service frequencies were NOT peak frequencies at all. [1]
IIRC, they're now charging peak fares until 8 PM. But the more frequent peak service is only offered until 6:30 or 7 or so.
Rightly or wrongly (rightly, IMO), the perception has been that you pay more in the peak because the service is better. By gradually extending the peak-fare periods, WMATA has broken that connection and pissed people off.
The official explanation is that the "peak" fare is actually the base fare, and that the off-peak fares are discounted. The implication seems to be that passengers should be thankful to even get the somewhat cheaper (but still quite expensive for longer journeys) off-peak fares at all. Needless to say, this has not exactly been a PR bonanza for WMATA....
-- Tim
[1] It didn't make any difference to me in practice -- I commuted between Dupont Circle and Rosslyn, which is the minimum fare -- but I still felt WMATA was cheating the people who were riding longer distances.
(One big reason, I think, that people don't like the peak/off-peak fare differential in DC is the reason I discovered when I lived there, and didn't like it: The period when peak service is provided is shorter than the period when peak fares are charged. I used to regularly arrive at work later than lots of my colleagues and leave later, so I often rode the Metro between 9:30 and 10, and between 7 and 7:30 or so, and found that even though peak fares were charged, the service frequencies were NOT peak frequencies at all.)
It should be the other way around -- extend peak frequencies beyond the main rush hours, to entice people to ride a little earlier or later and spread the load.
I imagine $2.00 peak fares from 7:30 to 9:00 a.m., and from 4:30 to 6:00 p.m. The fare could ramp up 7:00 to 7:30 and 4:00 to 4:30, and ramp down from 9:00 to 9:30 and 6:00 to 6:30. It could increase or decrease by ten cents every five minutes.
It should be the other way around -- extend peak frequencies beyond the main rush hours, to entice people to ride a little earlier or later and spread the load.
Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if WMATA could be that rational instead of using this as a revenue-raising trick and making excuses about it? :-(
Regards,
Tim
>>> The fare could ramp up 7:00 to 7:30 and 4:00 to 4:30, and ramp down from 9:00 to 9:30 and 6:00 to 6:30. It could increase or decrease by ten cents every five minutes. <<<
Although time based fare differentials are workable, the gradual change of fare would be a nightmare. It would result in odd balances on MetroCards which would be difficult to keep track of, and bad PR as people look at inaccurate watches and believe the TA is cheating them of a few cents by running a fast clock. The really frugal will still wait till the fare is the lowest, and those in a hurry would enter at the maximum fare just as they would during any intermediate fare. For PR reasons the fare should go up five minutes after the advertized time and go down five minutes before the advertized time so those with inaccurate watches will not feel cheated.
Tom
Good point, Paul. The customer would be less inclined to 'fly off the handle' if distance were the measure of the fare and not peak/off peak.
Most folks can comprehend the idea of travel being more costly the further away you go from the 'hub' area.
BMTman
Dougie, I love you and all but *B* *S* ... just ask any resident of Rockaway when they had to play the "Charlie on the MTA" trick with having to pay to EXIT or a double fare to get home. Didn't matter how much it cost, double fare or "premium fare" never gains hearts or minds, even if you could bury it in a "metrocard whoopsie" ... Zone fares would work on any commuter railroad, but you'd have riots in the streets if the MTA tried it on the subways ... no matter what the excuse.
Rioting in the streets over a small fare increase based on mileage --- I don't think so, but then again, anything is possible.
Hell, I'd be rioting in the streets if Drakes eliminated 'Ring Dings'...;-D (another plug for a food product dubbed 'breakfast of champions' by workers throughout the transit system)
BMTman
Roach Coach doesn't deliver Ring Dings.
You gotta buy those elsewhere ... to motormen in the old days, we referred to them as "big tokens" ...
Remember their slogan at the end of their commercials? "How long can a good thing last?" The fellow who also played the Maytag repair man did a commercial for Drake's Devil Dogs.
Rioting in the streets over a small fare increase based on mileage --- I don't think so, but then again, anything is possible.
Even if a distance-based fare became politically acceptable, there'd be major practical issues, namely the need for exit swipes.
Yeah, maybe not ... but NYPIRG would blow a substation at least if there was a zone fare scheme ...
On to happier thoughts - yes, the ring ding is the official eats of cab dwellers most everywhere, but that's only because the ORIGINAL cab eats of yesteryear, the powdered sugar donut, would result in too many delays for "police action" ... ah, how I miss the days of Twin Donuts and the floor heater on an R9 to keep them nice and gooey. :)
LOL!
zone/distance fares while traditional on mailine commuter systems, are IMHO unjustifiable within a single city limit. The experience of 'real unification' when Metrocards were set up to integrate bus/subway usage shoild be instructive. Balkanizing the the city into transit ghettos is a dumb maneuver. Operationally it would require dip swipe at both ends which is nearly unmanegable in midtown for AM rush.
The City always was "Balkanized" in its fares--the difference was that the two-fare (or more) zones were created by proximity to a subway line instead of by distance, the latter of which is fairer.
"One City One Fare," like the universal 5-cent subway fare is a political construct. The line between "traditional" zone fares on a commuter road and "universal" fares is just doing things in a certain way because that's the way it's been done, not because its logical or fair.
A commuter, whether by subway, bus or rail line, is just someone trying to get to work.
Someone going from Tottenville to Times Square pays the same fare as someone going from Harlem to Times Square. But someone going from Merrick to Penn on the LIRR pays a higher fare than someone going from Freeportt to Penn. There is no justification for one and not the other on the basis of fairness, only politics and demagoguery.
Like that term 'Balkanized.' I doubt that a Serbian student today could make changes like in 1914 re Archduke Ferdinand. Not everyone in TA has their brains numbed. CI Peter
You are certainly correct that the ripoff fare tradition is not FRA mandated--I of course favor lowering ALL transit fares within the five boros. By me LIRR and MN would become Metrocard single fare within city limits. Also PATH and any other PA rail project would be same. And you are right it is all politics. The fares have no rational relationship to capital or operational costs.
I of course favor lowering ALL transit fares within the five boros. By me LIRR and MN would become Metrocard single fare within city limits.
So you would have the LIRR fare be $1.50 with free subway transfer (as you would with Metrocard) from Penn to Queens Village (15.2 miles), then jump to $6.25 with NO subway transfer if you're going one stop and 1.1 miles further to Bellerose in Nassau County?
Who pays for this boon to City riders? And on what basis do you justify it?
Ultimately, as I have commented before I am anti fare entirely. I despair ever getting that but any step which encourages usage and discourages car use is a good thing. As to the equity issue at the city border, the problem here is exactly the distribution of the tax fueled expenditures. If Nassau and Suffolk wanted to join the five boros in a just tax equity setup then the LIRR should be one fare all over. Before you pounce, hear me out. For years, NYCity has been treated as a cash cow for the state. If ALL tax monies in NY state were allocated on a head count basis NYCity would be rolling in cash and able to fund transit for suburbanites as well as better schools etc. The current setup siphons money out of the city to fud suburban sprawl nfrastructure and just enough scraps to satisfy the rural and upstate areas.
Next issue. It is long past time for LIRR since it is an 85 foot subway, to become far less overstaffed, go barrier control for large volume stations, and generally shape up.
It is an article of faith that NYC is a "cash cow" for the rest of the state, but this assertion (as challenged by, among others, former Mayor Koch) is based on doubtful economic assumptions.
Countering complaints about the widely vaunted dispartity of TBTA money going to the RRs/transit system, the state has quietly been picking suburbanites pockets to convey more money to the City system. "Quietly" because, though it's there in place sight, the suburbs don't have the watchdog groups the City has to watch and noisily complain about every cent that goes somewhere they don't like.
Case in point, the Petroleum Business Tax, supposed to be a tax on oil businesses in the State, but actually a backdoor ADDITIONAL gas tax. When a well-known City transit advocate (whom I won't name for several reasons) at a forum I recently attended was asked about trying to milk the suburbs for more money for the City system, he said that this wasn't politically possible at this time and that if suburbanites knew how much money they were paying at the pump for this tax, there could be a lot of noise.
He mentioned how much money it was, and I was so surprised, I looked it up and I didn't mishear him.
Do YOU know much it is?
Do YOU know what the split is for the money from this tax (paid overwhelmingly by New Yorkers outside the City) for the suburban railroads vs. City transit?
II do NOT have that data--but I would refer you to Larry Littlefield's excellent article at the NYU Taub site. The OLD numbers when I lived there were gross NY state revenues raised within city 43 %, spent within city 16 %. And from a natiuonal perspective, if the reverse were true it would be exceptional. The mobement in the greater Twin Cities to redistribute funding came from evidence that the burbs were pigging all the regional money. Here in the SF Bay Area, BART which is a hybrid sort of subway sort of suburban commuter train gets the lions share of regional transi money but hauls thousands fewer passengers per day than for instance the SF MUNI within one county(BART serves three counties and is expanding into a fourth as it is extended to the airport). In dollars spent per rider served BART is a huge money sink--but it has the political muscle. The entire history of US societal change since WWII has been based on continuous and further secession from the urban cores both into the burbs, edge cities, and in general to the 'right to work' for inadequate wages South and SW. You can trace the decline of urban public education to the white flight to the burbs and the money which went with it. Once the famly stopped going 'downtown' to shop, most of urban America began a long downhill slide. It is rare for the well to do suburbanites to be interested in spending tax monies on the people they chose to mve away from.
The OLD numbers when I lived there were gross NY state revenues raised within city 43 %, spent within city 16 %.
Spent on WHAT? Does that include money for state share of Medicaid and Welfare?
And as to school money, without engaging the issue of where the money comes from and where it goes (for example, I think LL and I agree that the City likes to take its state money for things they place a higher priority on than education and transit) I don't believe New York's biggest problems with education are a lack of money. It more involves decisions on classroom curriculum, teacher and principal accountability, allocation of resources, the bottomless well of 110 Livingston Street, and corruption. When New York City (wisely, I thought at the time) began community school boards, it was supposed to give City schools what the suburbs had--local boards accountable to local people. Instead the boards were hijacked to serve as fiefdoms for the dispensing of patronage.
.
My point, And I think this horse is dying, is that the state derives more money than it spends within the city. The numbers of course derived from a candidate's rantings (Mailer) who was running for mayor on a secesssionist ticket(make thecity the 51t state). The bottom line still is that the tax monies collected within the US are NOT equitably disbursed for the good of the citizenry(duh!) As I have posted before, the Bush voting states(mostly rural, mostly non manufacturing economies(except defense), get far more money back from the Feds than they contribute. Look in the NYT archives for a story on just this issue in early Jan 01.
One B02 would build severalmiles of subway. What do we want?
Well, right at this particular moment in history, we might need the B-2.
Which brings up another point. When the Feds tried to push some money in the City in the way of military spending, as in other parts of the country (Homeport on Staten Island), opposition managed to get it thrown out, along with the money and jobs it brought in. The excuse was that it would make New York a military target. That looks pretty stupid after 9/11. (It was stupid before, too, but no one thought much about it then)
Okay, I give up. Any further discussion of budget and military should be sent off board. See the 'contributors' page on this site for my e'mail.
Well, I think the horse is dead, anyway.
To encourage people to travel off peak, I'd raise the fare during rush hours only -- to $2.00 for a start. That would be $1.81 with the 11 for 10 bonus, up from $1.37 now. In the afternoon, peak hour fares would only apply to those boarding in the center of town -- Manhattan, Downtown Brooklyn, Long Island City, the Hub -- not for those coming in on empty trains.
Off-peak travel is not always the sort of thing that can be encouraged. Given a choice, even without fare differences, most people would very gladly avoid packed rush-hour trains in favor of less crowded off-peak ones. Work schedules being what they are, however, most people don't have any such option. Economic factors aside, there's something inequitable about charging more for the "privilege" of squeezing onto packed trains when people have no choice in the matter.
While off-peak travel can't necessarily be encouraged for those who are working, peak travel can be discouraged for those who are on their own time. It works well on the LIRR and the other commuter lines -- witness how much more crowded the first outbound off-peak train is each evening than the last outbound peak train. Same goes for the last off-peak outbound before peak period begins.
The metrocard system gives the TA quite a bit of flexibility to utilize peak period pricing. They should be looking at all of their options.
CG
Looks like we've got five yeses and three nos. The nos ought to know that there are really only two choices. A higher fare now, or a higher fare after Pataki is re-elected. The latter will have to be higher still, to dig us out of the whole.
Something for nothing is a fools game. For example, the East River Bridges were built with tolls. They are rebuilt with massive debt but without tolls. Does that make them free? Of course not. New Yorkers are paying more in taxes, and forgoing other services, to pay back the bonds.
It isn't like the fare is never going to go up. This is reality. So raise it now and get it over with. The downside is that raising the fare in a recession is the same as raising taxes in a recession - a bad idea. But what other realistic choices are there? Our elected officials have been conditioned to treat us like children when it comes to the subway fare.
For example, the East River Bridges were built with tolls. They are rebuilt with massive debt but without tolls. Does that make them free? Of course not. New Yorkers are paying more in taxes, and forgoing other services, to pay back the bonds.
The last of the bonds for the construction of the four "free" East River bridges were paid back in 1956.
(The last of the bonds for the construction of the four "free" East River bridges were paid back in 1956.)
The way they refinance debt these days, the debt issued to rebuild these bridges will outlast the bridges themselves by centuries.
The way they refinance debt these days, the debt issued to rebuild these bridges will outlast the bridges themselves by centuries.
A soap bubble is likely to outlast the Manhattan Bridge!
I'll probably be shot, but I agree. Raise the fare enough to keep things in good shape plus build at least some of the new subway and rail lines that are so desperately needed. My only reservation is that mass transit costs tend to fall disproportionately on the poor, but just too much needs to be done to keep playing games, and we can't count on Uncle Sam or his nephews and nieces in Albany to provide the funding.
"My only reservation is that mass transit costs tend to fall disproportionately on the poor,"
1 subway ride fro a welfare person = $1.50
1 subway ride for a middle class worker = $1.50
1 subway ride for Donald Tump = $1.50
Must be that new liberal math that I don't understand.
Trump would be able to afford an Unlimited ride while a poor person, living from paycheck or paycheck would only to be able to afford a daily token or a 15$ card. Therefore Trump pays less.
No - you still don't get it. Trump pays the same amount. It just has a lesser impact on his budget. Are you now advocating that Pathmark should get financial disclosure statement from it's customers before deciding what they will charge individuals for a can of chicken-noodle soup? Should I pay more for a gallon of gasoline than you or less than Bill Gates? Is this the type of society you are looking for?
PathMark is a division of Supermarkets General. SG owned 'Rickels' and collapsed that division. PathMark loses money every day...but not enough money to collapse..so they remain open to service areas of 'depressed economy.' Buck fifty is a bargain. CI Peter
Politics today being what they are, the poor will pay one way or another, in a higher fare or a worse transit system. That's why I advocate a peak hour fare. Most lower-wage jobs are not 9 to 5, so the poor would not be hit by it.
'Peak hour fare' just won't fly......it would be like 'foostamps.' CI Peter
>>> 'Peak hour fare' just won't fly...... <<<
Of course not. But if it is called "off peak discounts" it accomplishes the same thing and is more acceptable. i.e., a rise in the general fare to $2.00 with off peak discounts of $.50 per ride is the same as raising the peak fare only to $2.00 but sounds better to the consumer.
Tom
Raising mass transit fares just encourages people to drive in vs taking mass transit. Causes excess hardship to those working low end jobs.
The current unlimited ride metrocards makes it hard for me to justify driving my car to locations along transit routes
Trump pays the same amount.
If Trump can afford an Unlimited ride card and a poor person cannot then Trump pays less per ride than a poor person.
Raise the fare....fix my salary with some small increment to keep up with life and take care of me when I'm ill. I AGREE. CI Peter
What needs to be done is to reduce the labor intensiveness of operating the transit system by utilizing technology. This would allow transit operators to raise salaries without causing them to raise fares.
Ex: the reason nypd is the lowest paid police force in the area is the number of officers.
A 10% raise costs the city a larger dolar amoun then a 10% raise cost say suffork county because suffork has far fewer officers
The Lord TRULY put into my heart some dearly needed lessons when GM held my car up for service for over a week. Maybe the 'poorest poor' who cannot afford shoes must take the subway but the poor MUST be killing themselves over the long transit time it takes for them to travel to work. Twenty one minutes by car to the 239th Yard...how about 1 1/2 hours on MY subway cars???? Labor intensiveness will not decrease until the trackage and signals are brought into the 21st Century...not to mention the FILTHY PIGS who vandalise the system and leave their marks about like dogs on a hydrant. Every car inspector gets paid the same wages...equal opportunity ...so why should the skills i have to serve the TA be wasted changing out windows where cracks occur from scratchitti??? I'm happy with the work...any work...and I do TRULY know that after 911 I am in the right place to serve. JUICE MAKES TRAINS GO. CI Peter
The only salvation for the poor is work hard so that thier children have it better then themselves. that is the montra that the sucessful have used to move up the latter to middleclassnes.
Although the poor person you speak of may take longer to get where he need to by mass transit then by car. At least he/she has the opurtunity to do so.
What I'm suggesting is to bring the transit system into the 21th century.
There is no arguement from me. I serve when called and I have found a calling at my late age like my crewmen. We come to TA with many years of combined experience and technical expertise, waiting for something to come along beyond replacing brake shoes or greasing Redbirds before they become aquariams.
The 'hidden infrastucture' is moved each and everyday by subway and our hands are upon everything. We are the new guys of Car Equipment Department, we know how gifted we are to have new work, we MAKE TRAINS GO. We're also old enough to know how hard our parents worked to make something of themselves after the war. CI Peter
"What needs to be done is to reduce the labor intensiveness of operating the transit system by utilizing technology?"
What makes you think this is not being done? AC motors are replacing DC motors in some car equipment. Static converters replaced motor-generators. E-Cam controllers require less maintenance that their predecessors. Fluorescent lights replace incandescent bulbs. Electronic side signs replaced roll-signs and the mechanical transport mechanism. Composition shoes replaced steel brake shoes. The integration of technology is constant at the NYCT. It's just so common because of the fleet size, that it's always viewed as small steps instead of giant leaps as in smaller railroads.
Sorry guys but I am witholding my anger and have to vent electrolyctic caps from my one kilowatt high frequency station:
TA NEEDS TO BLEED OFF LAZY INCOHERENT SLACKERS!!!!!! PERIOD!!!
On September 11th, I watched thousands lose their lives on television and then drove into the city to begin my new career with the Transit Authority just a few days later. I witheld my obligation to provide emergency service communication work because of my deep feeling that TA needed me more. Nothing will
EVER make up the loss to my city, not 'new tech,' not AC tech, not CBTC comm, not nothing. 'Being and doing' is all that needs to be said. The system will awake when TA puts us all comm/comp/aviation/aerospace/COM CAD/radio techs to use. Thomas Edison is dead...everyday is alive with the genius of Nicolai Tesla. WE WERE HIRED TO MAKE TRAINS GO and the old civil service system that graces employment for everyone has become 'the root evil of opportunity.' I will never learn the TA shuffle. I promise. CI Peter
"If Trump can afford an Unlimited ride card and a poor person cannot then Trump pays less per ride than a poor person."
That's a completely different proposition than the original one. Even as such, your statement is only conditionally true. Let's say that the poor person buys the $15.00 metrocard and gets 11 rides @ $1.37 per ride. Let's also say that Mr. Trump buys the unlimited Metrocard at $60.00 (I'm not sure of the actual price). This would mean that Mr. Trump would have to use that card 44 times in order to pay less than the poor person. If he uses it 43 ties or less, the actually pays more. That not withstanding, in my original post I advocated getting rid of the unlimited ride metrocard. Even though it provides larger amounts of cash immediately, I believe it causes a financial drag on the system.
So what we do is replace a few CTAs with green vests. TWU would love it, right??? TA pizza would go up in price too. CI Peter
You raise an interesting point.
Do people really max out their unlimited cards? Some do by taking bus rides for a stop or two that they would never have done if they had to pay. But if you throw in sick days, three day vacations and such does the system really lose. Then also consider the goal, lowering the number of station agents.
Now I would increase the dead time to discourage ride sharing and trivial trips.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the unlimited card was actually limited by time. In other words, one month of unlimited rides. Therefore if trump used his card 40 times in the one month period, he'd be paying $1.50 per ride.
My thought was that while the TA loves getting those $60 lumps of cash, the unlimited card can be passed around to the extent that 2 or 3 people could be riding on it at different times of day. If a person lives ina 2 fare zone and works 20 days per month, 80 to 90 rides per month is reasonable. If 2 people share the one card illegally, they could easily use the card 160 - 180 time per month. That's a drain on the system resources.
No, you can't stand by the turnstile and give everyone a freebie.
There is a delay before it can be reused, there has been criticism here that the delay can be removed but was not. I think the public has a 17(?) minute delay and ours has less (8?) which is what the person here objected to.
«if 2 people share the one card illegally, they could easily use the card 160 - 180 time per month»
It's not illegal.
Arti
>>> It's not illegal <<<
Read the sentence again. There are ways that two people can share an unlimited card that are legal, and there are ways that are illegal. The illegal ways were being addressed.
Tom
That form of sharing is allowed. The form of sharing that is not allowed is 2 or more using it at the same time. I.E. the "owner" uses the card and enters and then passes it to another person who waits 18 minutes and then enters( while the "owner" waits") and often this is repeated for a third or even fourth customer. We do challenge customers who try to do that and some buy a token or their own card and some ignore us (so what else is new ?) and a select small scattering will leave the station entirely including the "owner" who will exit the system and both or all 3 or 4 will leave the station.
Sorry, no sharing allowed. Purchase of the MetroCard is by unsigned contract for the exclusive use of its original purchaser. Period. The smucks that used to stand by the turnstiles for a 'handwipe' are all gon. CI Peter
What the MTA says on its web site is that you can't ask for money in return for swiping your card through the turnstile for someone. It doesn't say you can't wait 18 minutes and then swipe again for another family member.
It does say that use is subject to the tariff, which isn't printed on the web site anywhere that I can find. So the tariff probably has many more restrictions in it.
But given that the MTA doesn't list those restrictions on the web site, or in the "code of conduct" posted in various places, I think you probably can't easily be arrested for sharing among family members. Charging a dollar for a swipe will of course get you nailed really fast.
I really don't think that anyone will wait for 'La Migre Familia' to clock through every eighteen minutes. I know sometimes travel cost is a hardship...i saw a lady stuck unable to enter a unattended turnstile...and it didn't take me long to realise what it migh cost me to gain her access. The system is still loosing revenue to cheaters...some of them are cleaning up around my yard. CI Peter
What I was referring to was Mr. Jones uses his unlimited metrocard to go to his night job. When he gets home, he passes it to Mrs. Jones who then uses it all day.
Which is perfectly legal.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I always get a good deal on my unlimiteds. I don't think I've ever used a Fun Pass for fewer than three rides (not counting frivolous rides or unnecessary transfers through the turnstiles), and before I bought my one and only 7-day pass, I determined that it was cheaper than a mix of Fun Passes and individual rides.
I will admit that on Sunday, it was raining, and an M104 was pulling up anyway, so I hopped on for one stop. I hope the driver didn't see me skulk out the back door.
Railfans don't count as normal people.
Well, I certainly don't.
But you don't think that people think through their planned rides of the day before using a Fun Pass? I agree that this is a bit harder to do for the longer-term unlimiteds.
>>No - you still don't get it.<<
This is probably hopeless but I am going to try one more time. Because the subway like the library, and the police and tyhe fire dept, are PUBLIC SERVICES, and as such are not run solely to generate profit in dollars, but also general social "good" like ability to commute to work, play. health care etc, and also to reduce the use of single user cars, sunway pricing has no inherent need to reflect so-called actual costs. The 'fare' is strictly a political issue. The abolition of the commuter tax was a shift in costs from the suburban users to the urban residents even though the suburbanites are in general better able to pay and as such pay less than the city dwellers on a percentage (or hourly) basis. If you believe in fully assessed "user fees" for government servics, so be it. I DON'T. and I'm not a liberal. I am a socialist.
Train Dude and the rest of us in TA know the system isn't built for profit. It is a giveaway for the wealthy and a necessity for the working person. The politics of inducing a fare system like SEPTA would really hurt the people of our city. I hear the complaints of those from 'depressed areas' about the cars they ride in (Redbirds.) Problem is that like in the telephone industry: business pays the bills of the consumers. The money has to come from somewhere...the residents of the State of New York would'nt vote a dime to the system.
The sad part is, it is our (NYC's) money.
I am on the verge of suggesting to the union that the next political action they support with COPE is a pettition to drop NYC from the State.
We could be NY the city state.
It actualy might work politcally. DC will never get statehood because who wants two more Democrat Senators BUT if NYC and NYS become states there is no way Hilary or Chuckie Cheese can win a NYS sans NYC we will have created two Republican senators to offset Jesse Jackson and Marion Barry the DC senators. Plus then we could have Guilaini as Governor (how bizarre how bizarre)
Wheres my random.
"Because the subway like the library, and the police and tyhe fire dept, are PUBLIC SERVICES, and as such are not run solely to generate profit in dollars,"
I don't disagree to this point. However, since the lion's share of the operating expenses are paid for through subsidy, the middle class pay a higher percentage than do the poor. If you then have a fare structure that favors the poor at the expense of the middle class, then you are penalizing that group twice.
As for our differing views on economics and politics being hopeless, don't look at it that way. You can always get a rap on the back of the head and wake up - thinking normally. Until then, I'd 86 the being a socialist. Your team isn't doing too well in the world economy.
See, I think you are missing the point. Indeed the middle class (if you can guage who they are)are being screwed. But that is because the Republicans gave away the store to the seriously rich. Moynihan pointed out some years back, that the irs deductions had gone down for what he referred to as middle class taxpayers, BUT the soc. sec. contrib had eaten up and surpassed that drop. This tax however tops out in 'middle class' salaries and the super rich do not pay on any of their earnings above $75 k. As to socialism being on hee losing end YOU are employed by a socialist enterprise--hooray. I just want more of the same. more punlic transit (NO SUVs), and as to free market competitive capitalism repeat after me Flixible, McDonnel Douglas, ALCO, St Louis Car, Budd, Pullman-Standard.
If that same poor person did not cash his check at check casher maybe he would be able to scape up the extra money for the unlimited ride card
All the person would need to do is sacrifise a bit more for a few weeks to buy the new card for the first month. Once the first card is bought. the poor person gets tremedous savings.
Some poor people are poor because they did not have the opurtunity to acuire skills needed to suceed in our society
Some people are poor because they make poor decisions(party in scholl instead of studing, Doin gdrugs instead of eating thier spinage) in life and don't sacrifise and save a dolar today so they can make money with that dollar tommorow
Thier is an old saying.
Rich people are the cheapest people out thier. They are rich because they dave thier money
What I fail to understand is that if one does not have the ability to earn enough of a living to live a comfortable life in NYC why don ththey move to a place where housing and lliving expensise are cheaper.
If my family did not make the prudent decison to buy a house vs renting, I would be living in NJ communting int o nyc to take advantage of the lower cost of living.
FYI my father worked three jobs to earn enough for the down payment on our house. Lived with black and white TV and did without many extra's that many poor people in this city see as rights (fancy designer clothes, etc) It makes me sick to see people buying food with food stamps wearing designer clothes.
>>> It makes me sick to see people buying food with food stamps wearing designer clothes. <<<
That would be a very unusual sight, unless the clothing was purchased from a thrift store.
Tom
EXACTLY, "liberal" math teaches that $1.50 is a larger percentage of net income for the welfare recipient, and to use your example , so small as to fall through the cracks in the accounting for 'Trump'.
The classic understanding of standard of living has rested on the number of hours of work required to purchase a given product at a fixed price. Obviously, 'Trump' can afford to own more Harleys than you even if the prices are the same.
Now, the point is how much of your monthly income goes for transport (assume you buy transport on MTA LIRR and NYCT, which I hope you are given as job benefits).
ANY fixed price item or fixed percentage tax ("regressive") such as sales taxes are inherently a larger percentage of total spending by lower income persons--thus the prices are "higher" from their standpoint.
My example was illustrating the point that a poor person lacks the basic capital to make purchases that will save them/make them money. They cannot afford a monthly metrocard as they do not have $120 or so lying around at any one time. They can however scratch up the $3-$5 on a daily basis for their transit needs. In the end those least able to afford it wind up paying more. There is a sililar story w/ health insurance. Most insurance plans have a set amount they pay for a given service. Most hospitals charge more than that set amount, but they will usually accept that set payment from the insurance as payment in full. However those w/ no insurance get charged the full amount. Poor people generally tend to not have health insurance so poor people are charged more for medical care than those who can afford insurance. It simply boggles the mind.
can you spell capitalism?
You are quite correct about the inability to 'inveat' in a monthy pass. In turn, it is usually the poor who are 'forced' to ride during rush rather than the suits who can stroll in after the cattlre car time. Flex time is rarely offered for retail clerks, counter workers etc.
OTOH if you afford a pass, then the non work commute usage is essentially free--encouraging other economic activity.
The problem with budget balancing (a fraud of bookeeping in many cases) is the scranble to cut "expenses" exactly when pimp priming is most needed to keep the 'water' flowing. If maintenance is cut back, the image of a functional subway will again sink which inevitably wikll shrink 'discretionary' ridership--the very riders most ncessary to the political mix.
Poorer people should be exampt from sales tax using a "smart" card technology.
NO. sales taxes should drop and income tax percentages shopuld rise in upper bracklets. The point is to tax the persons who have most resources to pay for the general needs. In turn the ultimate need is to standardize the tax rates accross the board and force the spending by population so that the states stop the destructive tax giveaway competition, and the stealing of funds by the edge cities stop.
(NO. sales taxes should drop and income tax percentages shopuld rise in upper bracklets.)
Given up on that dream. I'm now more into eliminating decent public schools in the suburbs -- since city children don't get them and I have to pay for my own. And eliminating social security and Medicare, since people my age won't get them. The state and local tax savings would allow paying a higher fare and saving the Second Avenue Subway as well.
New York liberals have reached an interesting compromise. There is no big government in NYC, just big government elsewhere and for others that we still pay taxes for. Myself and my neighbors get little or nothing. The working poor get even less -- at least our local park is in good shape -- due to charitible contributions by me and others.
A ride on my carbody: two bucks before wiping shoes. CI Peter
Difference is poor people don't have a choice, they can't afford cars like middle and upper classes.
Oh, is that a fact. Perhaps you can explain why some of the folks using foodstamps at my local Shoprite dress better than I do, wear more jewlery than my wife and in many cases drive a better car than I do.
Lest this degerate into another political/non-transit related thread, let me ask you this, John. If you are correct, why is it the subway system that should balance the scales. Why shouldn't the food stores give lower prices to the poor or the gasoline companies. Why shouldn't sears sell cloths cheaper to the poor or let's go att the way, why can't I buy a Gulf Stream for an amount that would be proportional to Bill Gates income as compared to mine?
Local Shloprite??? TD doesn't live in Manhattan!!! Fooostamps??? Dey be got better cellphones!!! What we have here in NYC is an unwritten cash standard of living. With few exceptions (Balduccis for one,) we all have to pay the same price for everything irregardless of standing or income. Buck fifty a ride is a bargain, even if top speed cranks below 40 mph. CI Peter
No, I don't live in Manhattan. I'm tied by the mortgage to Whitelandia. BTW: That gentleman from Concourse Shop, walking through 239th St. on Friday was not me.
East Stroudsberg, Pa. is a bargain to live in.....got Walmart Supercenter, ShopRite and Bargain Outlet and lots of NYC ethnics that fled Whitelandia NYC. If you ever do prance up to 239th, just pick up the blower and call OnTheJuice. One thing for sure: you'll get a lot of attention from the 'in de horne' guys. Just keep an eye out for open covers on my R142s....CI Peter
Qtraindash7: the 'poor people' drive brand new cars and have everything thanks to leasing and credit cards...they can manage without subway rides. The 'working poor' make the best of the Lords Gifts...traveling long hours on the subway or paying in cash for everything until the money runs out. I own my 1995 Olds..paid in cash...and i cannot physically afford the long trip to my yard by subway. An increase is needed...the wealthy who take the IRT just a few stops will feel no pain. CI Peter
Fares are high enough as it is. Would you prefer people to drive? The more people have to pay for transport the less they have to spend on other things, the less they leave their place of residence and thusly the less that goes into the city's economy and the less tax revenue that is collected. The more you jack up the cost of living in the City the more people will flee to sensible places like New Jersey.
For my wife to take mass transit to work costs a whopping $3.00/day. To drive would take her longer and cost her more, not to mention adding another car to the already existing traffic mess. Why would she change if the fare went up?
>>>...the more people will flee to sensible places like New Jersey. <<
The state with one of the highest mass transit fare structures in the nation. Soon to be even higher.
Peace,
ANDEE
You mean ... he doesn't know? Should us Noo Yawkahs tell him what Noo Yawkahs think of Joisey? Nah. What's really funny is upstate near Smallbany and north, all the BAD stuff is on the Manhattan side of the Hudson river and the Joisey side is *civilized* ... well ... sorta. heh.
upstate near Smallbany and north, all the BAD stuff is on the Manhattan side of the Hudson river and the Joisey side is *civilized* ... well ... sorta.
Maybe near Albany, but get down into the northern Catskills and the west bank is generally poorer than the east side. Compare Greene County to, say, Columbia County. (Greene County is a MESS.)
Mandatory transit-related content: Naked plug for the Ulster & Delaware Railroad Historic Society website. Visit it!
I've done the "train robbery" many times, years ago - used to live in Zoo Paltz and Rosendale and would make it up to Arkville every now and then to ride the flatcar behind the might Alco. :)
And yes, for anyone who's never had the pleasure, it's STILL highly recommended! (only wish it could be extended down past the Kingston traffic circle and down to the Strand) Howdy, neighbor!
Whoops ... before anyone thinks I'm PANNING the DURR, the "train robbery" thing was this elaborately THEMED theatrical thing where the "train" would be "robbed" wild west style. The Delaware and Ulster Rail Ride was well known for making it more than just a "grab a seat and ride slow" along the creek ... they made it AMUSING. And I've always been a patsy for "amusing" and that's what kept bringing me back. It's a WONDERFUL way to spend the tourista season and one ride ain't enough.
Now how's that for "I heart NY" not even associated with the state anymore? :)
(only wish it could be extended down past the Kingston traffic circle and down to the Strand) Howdy, neighbor!
Actually part of the ROW was built over in the early '80s by some office building, part of an economic redevelopment plan for Kingston. It now has a state agency in it.
The Catskill Mountain RR (the other, shorter tourist line east of Phoenicia) has gotten funding to put back the level crossing into Route 28 and connect to a couple more miles of ROW eastward. The state DOT has been ... uhhhh ... less than cooperative, most recently requiring them to do an entire study of all DOT-related issues along the entire rail line (or something like that). They obviously don't want a new level crossing on a 55 mph main artery (understandable from their POV, I s'pose.)
There's also money committed by a supportive county legislator to restore some additional ROW even further east. The sticking point at the moment is the washed-out bridge connecting those two pieces, which would take most of a million dollars to reinstate. They're working (slowly) on that funding.
I can provide more info if (and only if) you're interested, but we should probably do it off-board.
Glad to hear of further extension actually ... I remember a much shorter DURR, although at least a CABOOSE got planted at the traffic circle - to bring this along JUST a little bit further in context of Subtalk since it's a nice train ride and all, folks from down south (after all, given where I am, Ulster county *is* considered "downstate" from here as is Catskill and Hudson) would REALLY get off on the DURR for a daytrip or longer - it's a MAGNIFICENT and VERY PRETTY route along the creek - nothing pleases me more than knowing that it's STILL surviving ...
What would be ABSOLUTE coolness on a stick though would be some means of interchanging folks with the Kingston Trolley Museum so BOTH operations would be able to compliment each other from a tourism standpoint. When I lived down there, did both although at the time, the Kingston Trolley Museum was a "hurting buckaroo" aside from what was right there on the Strand downtown near the Hudson. Glad Mo Hinchey got to Congress ... not that being in the minority party did much good recently. There's another guy who could do wonders if only they'd listen to him.
That all said, any train fan would LOVE the DURR and sorry for plugging it myself, but I always loved that choochoo. Up north of us in Washington county is another excursion run that's pretty nice as well - the BATTENKILL ... but DURR is more easily accessible for folks from the city. After season, got to play with the nice little Alco under some supervision on the DURR and there's a nicely restored RS3 on the Battenkill as well.
And the state stepping on anybody's fun is certainly not news. That's why I quit the PSC myself. And also why upstate is an economic disaster except for the bedroom communities where staties live. I shut up now, but THANKS for bringing out a fond memory that I *highly* endorse!
Damn ... other side trip ... this is ROUTE 28 we're talking about, not exactly the THRUWAY ... AND, after all, we're not talking about slow one mile long freights either. The only issue I would see is proper grade crossing equipment (which can get MIGHTY expensive, especially to ensure that the relays ALWAYS pull in when required and if they stick in the "close it down" position, that there's someone who lives withing a mile to go and kick it) ... An amazingly stupid impediment but then who am I to question the Warlords of DOT? Give a political subdivision ghod-like powers and they WILL abuse it.
As to the state building, why no problem ... you tell ME who would win? A locomotive or a pithy little building? :)
Like, NO.
NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ... this is an ELECTION year for both DC and our Paturkey ... politicians NEVER raise taxes when facing an election, and fare hikes are considered "taxes" by politicians and their advisors. *CUTS* however are "sexy" in an election year and I've already SEEN bits of the governor's budget message and some of the visual aids being prepared for "budget school" for the press next week. Let's just say "OUCH!" since the feds screwed us ...
(*CUTS* however are "sexy" in an election year and I've already SEEN bits of the governor's budget message and some of the visual aids
being prepared for "budget school" for the press next week.)
My prediction is that the state would cover 100 percent of its deficit by cutting off school aid to NYC. They would be a little asterisk by the zero for NYC school aid, saying the feds would pay as part of disaster relief. When such relief didn't arrive, NYC public schools would disappear. And no one with power would care.
I am telling you NYC State is the way to go.
Knowing the TA, more money will be spent (capital, of course)
in implementing demand pricing that will actually be recovered!
The fare increase will have to come soon, it's just a matter
of a few months vs a year or two. I don't mind, but I'd also
like to see an increase in motor vehicle registration fees,
especially for higher weight vehicles.
They'll wait for the next union contract after 12/15/02 to raise the fare and blame it on TWU!
(They'll wait for the next union contract after 12/15/02 to raise the fare and blame it on TWU!)
The TWU is to blame, sort of. The question is what is fair, for riders vs. transit workers. If other workers are getting raises, the TWU deserves them as well, and it that case, they can afford to pay a fare increase.
At this point, other workers aren't getting raises, but we need a fare increase just to catch up.
I didn't receive much of raises in twenty one years of employment in private industry, just 'pep talks.' I left with nothing but what i had earned...i have no sympathy for TWU balkers. Any halfway decent union will get something for their members, period. That is the problem between us newbies with years of experience outside and the oldtimers we have to work with.....we want the work and are willing to do any assignment and WILL report for duty after we finish. TA is going to have massive deficit problems with the aquisition of 'new tech' trainsets and the public will balk over an increase in fares....gasoline is still a bargain!!! CI Peter
When they abandon that ridiculous idea for building new stadiums for the rich, drug addict baseball players, I'll take a fare increase. You know what makes me laugh? The Second Avenue line has been on hold for 60 years, yet we can find money for nonsense. We have 2 stadiums that are fine. Also, as a tax payer and a non baseball fan, I don't want my taxes going into the greasy, fat pockets of Steinbrener. Guiliani almost got everything perfect. On his last day, he screwed up my opinion of him. Still the best mayor ever, but the baseball obsession has to go.
If the teams want to cry a river and leave town cuz they can't get new stadiums, well that's fine by me. the land shea stadium is on would make a fine intermodal yard for NY&A or expanded corona 7 yard...
There is an entire website devoted to the scams that sports franchises use to hoodwink politicians and voters:
Field of Schemes
The ideas for New York aren't the most outrageous examples. Stadium projects in St. Louis, Oakland and Denver give new meaning to the concept of "chtuzpah".
Well Los Angeles is not one of those dumb ass towns that fall for this crap. The Rams and Raiders didn't get a new stadium, and the expansion team in Texas would have been awarded to us if we built them a stadium. The result: We don't have our own professional football team. Significance? Who gives a rat's ass. Every Sunday, we get games all day, good games. Before we got blacked out. We can do without the NFL, and if they can do without us, fine. If some of our half-ass politicos decide to cater to some millionaire owner and decide to build a stadium with our money and without our permission, we will run their asses out of town. That is how it is supposed to be done. You want a stadium? You build it.
Fred...I don't always agree with your posts...but on this one....
...BRAVO!!!!
Good to know I pass muster with you on this one. Good God, these guys are muilti-millionaires to begin with. And then they have the nerve to want the tax payer to foot the bill for their own greed.
Not only was LA willing to give up the NFL rather than give in, it stayed out of subdizing the NBA and NHL. Result? They all got together on a single building they paid for themselves. Meanwhile, the Mets and Yankees want their own stadium with the City paying for half of each. Why not one stadium in LIC, with the teams paying for the whole thing?
San Francisco also stood up to the pressure. The result? The Giants built their own stadium with their own money.
>>That is how it is supposed to be done. You want a stadium? You build it.<<
That's pretty much how I feel. If a new Yankees and Mets stadium should be built, let the owners do it with some outside partnership.
LEAVE THE TAXPAYER OUT OF THIS !!
While private building and ownership of the stadiums now create taxes, there is a problem with the City employees either losing their jobs or losing their retirement benefits if a private owner hires them because of a management change. But isn't this a seasonal thing too ?
Bill "Newkirk"
RIGHT ON,FRED!!!
you hate that baseball, hey I saw your sporting skills when you punted that hobo ball at the SBK layup
HA! you obviously have not seem my mighty kung fu! my kung fu is unstoppable! wwwwoooo-wah wah wah wah!!
Don't say that. People like to joke about this issue, but it's no laughing matter.
The economic impact of our local sports franchises is strong. The money that the city is talking about spending on these new stadiums is not an expense as much as an investment.
But all you anti-progress people out there who are against the proposed stadiums have nothing to worry about. All the talk about new stadiums is just that. Talk. The Mets and Yankees are not getting new stadiums anytime soon.
While New Yorkers moan and groan about why the city should not partner with the Yankees and Mets on new stadiums, take a look at what the modern world is doing:
San Francisco 3COM Park
San Diego Qualcomm Stadium
Denver New Mile High
Tampa Tropicana Field and Houlihans Stadium
Atlanta Georgia Dome and Turner Field
Baltimore Camden Yards
Detroit Tiger Stadium
St. Louis TWA Dome
Cleveland Browns Stadium
Pittsburgh Heinz Stadium
and others.......................
While New Yorkers try to find reasons to continue living in the dark ages, other cities progress.
>>> The money that the city is talking about spending on these new stadiums is not an expense as much as an investment. <<<
That was said in L.A. at the time certain civic boosters were trying to get the city to pay for a new stadium, with talk about the jobs and money that would be brought to the city. In fact, it seemed like a way to transfer public funds to a limited number of private businesses in the immediate area of the proposed stadium. The counter argument was that the same amount of money would be better spent building new schools and improving the existing ones as a benefit to the whole city. Naturally when the stadium was rejected, no money was spent on schools either.
Tom
We're all looking at how much money New York wants to spend on these new stadiums, and using that amount to shoot down the idea saying we can't afford it, or the money should be used for new/improved schools.
Has anyone considered how much money the city would lose if we were to lose even one Major League Baseball team? And how those lost revenues would impact our local economy?
Last comment on this ... forget the stadiums ... not going to happen. No money ... Governor's budget address and "budget school" for the media at the end of the week. New York is about to do an Enron ...
Has anyone considered how much money the city would lose if we were to lose even one Major League Baseball team? And how those lost revenues would impact our local economy?
Yeah, a study's been done on the economic impact of stadiums in general. See my earlier post.
I saw your post. It said nothing. Simply speculated that cities don't benefit from the construction of a new stadium. You babble about janitors, and peanut vendors, without looking at the entire economic picture.
You are obviously swayed by the propaganda that the sports franchises love to spread: that a new stadium creates a positive economic impact on a city.
What JV wrote IS NOT babble. Most of the jobs generated by major sports franchises ARE low-paying, part time jobs.
So tell us about this "big picture". How DOES a major sports franchise benefit a city in a positive financial way? Lets see some numbers.
As far as the NEGATIVE financial impact of new stadiums is concerned, there is much documentation on the subject. Some cities issue bonds (which must be repaid with interest, screwing future generations). Other cities raise their sales taxes, which negatively impacts consumers in general. Most stadiums leases are "sweetheart deals" with the cities they're in, with the lion's share of the revenue going straight into the pockets of the franchise owners. And these snake-oil salesmen get to keep ALL of the luxury box fees, which is one of the reasons they want these amenities so much. Even the property taxes are often lowered or waived.
Suppose some large corporation, say Ford or Westinghouse, came to city and said, "We want to build a factory here. We want the city to donate the land and build the factory for us." How do you think the electorate of most cities would react? They'd scream "CORPORATE WELFARE!!". This, despite the fact that the factory would provide full-time jobs for a lot of people. But then again, nobody goes around waving banners of Ford Tauruses, or wears baseball caps with pictures of Westinghouse refrigerators. People become blinded by their emotional attachment to sports teams, and exaggerate their importance to a city.
We're smarter here in Los Angeles. First the Rams, then the Raiders, then the Rams again demanded new stadiums at great public expense. The public refused to go along. They moved. The impact on Los Angeles?
Nil.
No negative financial impact, save for a bar and grill that closed next to the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Even the die-hard football fans aren't complaining.
We also stopped a group of politicians from making a back-room deal to publicly finance Staples Center, new home of the Lakers, Clippers, and Kings. Although some public money was spent (mainly for infrastructure improvements OUTSIDE of Staples Center) the owners of these teams bit the bullet and built it themselves, and aren't exactly starving as a result.
Recently, the owners of the Dodgers (News Corp.) floated an idea around that the Dodgers "needed" a new state-of-the-art stadium in Downtown L.A. Nobody bought that nonsense, and the idea died quickly.
I posted this link in a previous post, and I suggest you read it.
Field Of Schemes
Suppose some large corporation, say Ford or Westinghouse, came to city and said
I would REALLY be surprised if Westinghouse came to the city wanting to build a factory. More surprised than I'd be if Gimbels wanted to build a store in the city.
How does a local sports franchise or sports facility impact a local economy?
Let's look at the New York Mets.
The NY Mets drew 2,600,000 in 2001. They would've done 3,000,000 but 9/11 undoubtedly hurt attendance a bit towards the end of the season.
Many of those fans take the subway to the games. Others arrive by car. Either way, the city receives revenue(parking revs and Metrocard revs)from those fans. Some may even cross a bridge or use a tunnel, increasing revenues at toll boths. When they buy a ticket to see the game, the city receives a percentage of ticket sales(last I heard it was 5%). If the World Series comes to town, people come from all over the world to attend the games. Media and fans alike, have to eat(keeping the hotel and restaurant industries busy), take a train or cab to the game(keeping T/O's and taxi drivers happy), and arrive by airplane, keeping airport personnel busy. Additionally, those who travel to NY to are taxed by the airlines, a portion of which goes to the city(it's called an airport tax).
If you still don't think that NY can recoup every penny invested in a new Shea Stadium, with an annual attendance of 2,600,000(and you can bet attendance would be much higher at a new stadium), over the projected life of the stadium(25 years), then I guess we'll never agree on this issue.
There is definitely a major economic benefit to a stadium. There is also a major cost. The return on investment is not obvious until you do a lot of number crunching.
Others have crunched those numbers in New York and elsewhere and the reports in the newspapers, which you can choose to believe or not believe, are that the return on investment is usually very poor and specifically is very poor in New York.
The return on investment may be poor, but it's still there. No weigh that against the economic impact of losing the New York Mets, and it's an easy decision for New York to make. Let's hope they make the right one.
And where exactly are they going to move to? Jersey is in the same financial shape as NY [ask the folks lobbying for that monstrosity in downtown Newark..or paying higher fares on NJT]...Nassau is bankrupt......Lupica in the News is absolutely correct-the only competion for Steinbrenner or Doubleday is NONE.....and they manged to hornswoggle Rudy 'Pinstripes in My Eyes' Guiliani into this mess...GREAT taste to leave in NY's mouth Rudy!
I have a better idea. One or both teams should leave New York for a city willing to make the necessary investments needed to lure a major league team.
Maybe New York can't afford to build a new stadiums for the local teams. But we surely can't afford to let either team leave.
The two NYC based baseball teams are the most profitable MLB franchises. STOP SPORTS TERRORISM, When a team is sold it should be sold to it's host city. (works well in Green Bay)
There is an economic impact to every kind of business, does that mean that the government has to go on subsidizing all of them? Why are professional sports any exception? They are more profitable than many other industries.
The government shouldn't spend money on anything that has no public benefit. Professional sports have no benefit to the masses apart from anything economic they may bring. Business can function on their own, with some regulations to protect consumers, but a team doesn't provide something for an individual that they can't live without (like TRANSPORTATION).
""They are more profitable than many other industries.""
Are they???????????????????
Just for your information, local municipalities have owned arenas and stadiums since the beginning of modern sports. But just to make everyone happy, I hope the Mets and Yankees both leave NY, to end this debate once and for all.
And go WHERE?
NEW JERSEY
Washington
Charlotte
New Orleans
San Antonio
Memphis
Nashville
or any city willing to do business like professionals.
or any city willing to do business like professionals.
Let them. I'd rather the taxpayers of all these second-rate cities (and New Orleans) pay the salaries of millionaires. Maybe then our city would have more money left for children and the needy.
Right On Americano Pork. Steinbrenner has oodles of money and a hell of a cable tv deal to boot. He can build his own stadium. If he really wants to do something worthwhile, he could build his stadium on the grounds of present day Yankee Stadium or nearby, and then help do his part to revitalize the area. But he won't do that because he is a greedy bastard. And the Mets owners are no better. Let them build their own stadium. They have the money. I'm told New York schools are in sad shape, and that means a lot of children of moderate to sub-par economic means are being swindled out of the possibilities of a good education. And we can certainly do something to refurbish some of our subway lines that need it. ( Guess one of them) Some citizens are naive enough to go along with these swindlers. I hope my brother New Yorkers have more sense than that.
Fred, your compassionate conservativeness is showing. The Yankees are the most profitable team in baseball and the Mets are not far beyond. a baseball team in this market should have no problem raising private cash to build a new stadium. welfare money should go to the needy, not the greedy. Besides, how are we going to have a tax cut if we give it all to $teinbrenner.
John: It seems to easy to both of us. The question is when are those voracious owners going to get religion and realize people are hard at work trying to keep their heads above water. Are some of these rich bastards so callous that they can't see the forest from the trees? It would appear so, wouldn't it.
So long as there's a sucker city around willing to give the various owners what they want (see the stories about New Orleans Hornets on Thursday's sports pages for the latest example), this stuff will keep up.
If Steinbrenner, Wilpon or whoever wants to do what the San Francisco Giants did and build their own stadium, I have far less of a problem with the city, state and/or federal government picking up the cost of surrounding mass transit and highway improvments. But they're not and even if Groege and Fred continue to play in their current parks because they "can't afford" to build the stadiums themselves, neither team is going to be down with the Expos and the Twins in terms of income or payroll anytime soon.
>> . Let them build their own stadium. They have the money. I'm told New York schools are in sad shape, and that means a lot of children of moderate to sub-par economic means are being swindled out of the possibilities of a good education. <<<
I wonder if Fred would change his tune if the Dodgers announced that they would return to Brooklyn provided the City would build them a new stadium somewhere near the Sea Beach Line (which would have to be refurbished with express service to the new stadium). :-)
Tom
Old Tom: You are a dirty rat. You hit my right where I live. I do wonder if I would change my tune. Strange since we have the Dodgers out here and I despise them. No, you can never go back. Thinking seriously about it, I would not support such a propsoal. My 34-plus teachers as a teacher has made me very compassionate where children are concerned and too many of them today are being sacrificed for the greed of the rich. The Dodgers of Brooklyn were my childhood love, and that is past and can never be returned. Now maybe we could put some of the money towards refurbishing the Sea Beach line, making it an express both in Manhattan and Brooklyn (even if that meant having to build couple of express stations, and running it over the Manny B in perpetuity. But you hit me right in my gut and I owe you one in retaliation. Be aware.
Be afraid, Tom, be VERY AFRAID :-)
Yeah, Fred will resurrect a train of Triplexes that will seek out and crush all opposition.:-)
I hope the Mets and Yankees both leave NY, to end this debate once and for all.
So do I. Lets see how well they do in another city.
I hope you'd like to know that the team which lost the most money in 2001 was the Los Angeles Dodgers. Hope those bastards are happy now.
Pro-sports are nothing but an opiate for the masses, like bread and circuses in ancient Rome. They serve no practical purpose for society apart from robbing people's money, which they do more and more as the years go by.
BTW, most of a parasite's sports team's profits come from television, not ticket sales. In that case, they can be anywhere in the world
(I hope the Mets and Yankees both leave NY, to end this debate once and for all.)
I was hoping New Jersey would end up paying for the stadiums. They aren't that stupid.
I love baseball. It has long been my favorite sport. But something is amiss somewhere. Millionaire owners want to have stadiums built for them so they can get the money from tax paying citizens in order to pay outlandish salaries to spoiled athletes. The salaries I can live with but not if the people have to foot the bill. Let those greedy bastard owners pay for the ballfields. The money New Yorkers would have to put out for it could be better used to improve the subways, schools, and infrastructure. Doesn't that at least make some sense to you guys?
I hope the Mets and Yankees both leave NY, to end this debate once and for all.
And if government still insists on giving them a handout, I know the perfect one: as long as the team pays for the stadium, the TA can give them the land. I know this nice spot just off the Delaware coast by the name of Redbird Island... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You forgot about the gaseoline tax that both the city and state collect. Something like .05-.25 a gallon
Here is an interesting point: between New York and New Jersey, the highest wholesale price for gasoline belongs to NJ.....NY is cheaper but has much more tacked on taxes.
>>> Many of those fans take the subway to the games. Others arrive by car. Either way, the city receives revenue(parking revs and Metrocard revs)from those fans. Some may even cross a bridge or use a tunnel, increasing revenues at toll boths. <<<
Looking at the money spent by New Yorkers to attend games is not a net gain to the economy. If the teams were not here, they would spend the money elsewhere in the city, going to movies, or bowling, or sitting in bars watching sports on TV. The money would still circulate. The direct revenue to the city from increased subway fares and parking is somewhat offset by the increased expense of providing additional subway service and police services due to the crowds and increased traffic in the area.
To the extent that sports teams bring in people from out of town, i.e. the visiting team's fans, there is a gain to the New York economy, but it is mainly restaurants and hotels that benefit. The same gain to the economy could be obtained with a far smaller expenditure to whomever promotes tourism to New York.
>>> If you still don't think that NY can recoup every penny invested in a new Shea Stadium, with an annual attendance of 2,600,000(and you can bet attendance would be much higher at a new stadium), over the projected life of the stadium(25 years), <<<
If it were reasonably sure there was a reasonable rate of return on the investment, there would be private money from insurance companies and pension funds coming forward to build the new stadiums. They are not doing so, so the recoupment of the investment is far from a sure thing. Any money spent building the stadium cannot be used for other things like digging a Second Avenue subway.
Tom
While New Yorkers try to find reasons to continue living in the dark ages, other cities progress.
Ha! I can't give you a source, but a study was done in the past couple of years that compared municipal investments in stadiums to other types of economic development. It found that stadiums generated fewer jobs, less tax revenue and overall were a lousy investment for almost every city surveyed.
Yeah, the construction generates short-term benefits. But after that, how many jobs do you really get? A handful of ticket sellers and pretzel vendors, bartenders in the skyboxes and a bunch of minimum-wage janitorial jobs.
More than that ... it's not like these teams are destitute. Same could be said for the NYSE, too, but that's another off-topic thread.
AMEN. Baasaball hasn't been berry berry good fo me. We used to have NFL football, didn't we?? Wasn't the teams names 'NY Giants' and NY Jets?' Lets build some more monuments to decadence. Lets waste some more money that governmental administration will not use to build new housing for the middle class who maintains the operations of big business and its machinery. Frankly, the wealthy who choose not to reside here won't get a faster ride in the near future. Reality will be 'Omega Man' and 'Escape from New York.' CI Peter
Can't we please keep to rail topics? Can't we see rail subjects on the home page? Stadium chat belongs in a chat room of your ISP. At the top ot the page, Dave asks us "....but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only...." The only thing a stadium, new or old, has to do with transit is people use transit to get there, jsut like any other place people go to.
>> When they abandon that ridiculous idea for building new stadiums for the rich, drug addict baseball players, I'll take a fare increase. <<
Oh, I'd love to find a way to hold their feet to the fire-- but without a fare increase it's just too easy for them to claim poverty and then stick to routine maintenance or less. Give them the money and then demand that it be used properly and not wastefully. If they squander it, "throw da bums out!"
How about creating fare times. At a ceratin time the fare increases or decreases.
Rush hour:$2.00
Middays and Avenings:$1.50
Nights and Weekends:$1.00
Disasters(man made):free
A fare increase is the last thing my wallet needs, but...it beats the alternatives. I'd much rather see a fare increase than cuts in service or in expansion plans. I'm also not too excited about the prospect of using zone fares or anything more complicated than what is already in place for the subway.
One idea I do have, though, is to perhaps offer "single ticket" plans for multiple-mode MTA rides. For instance you could buy a ticket at Hicksville for Mount Kisco, and it would include both LIRR and Metro-North serivice, as well as a Metrocard magnetic stripe for the subway between Penn and Grand Central. Or a trip from Hicksville to Brighton Beach on the (Q) which includes both the LIRR and NYCT. Or it could even involve LI Bus (why not if it inlcudes a magnetic stripe.) This might be discounted from the cost of the services bought serpately, which would mean a loss of fares, BUT remember: A) If noone uses it, you lose nothing. B) If a lot of people use it, then it might mean that the increase in ridership would more than make up for it.
:-) Andrew
Nobody likes a fare increase. I don't know the intimate details of the TA's budget, but if an increase is REALLY neeeded, finanical chcanery to avoid doesn't do anyone any good. Remember the 70s, anyone?
That said, I'd bet there are plenty of inefficencies (can anyone say Vice Presidents?) that could be eliminated before a far hike could be justified.
What really needs to be done is to improve the effeciencies of the system
Speed the clossing of unnecessary token boths. For instance why does a station on the LEX need two 24 hour token booths.
Move to 1/2 trains with advanced opto(wireless cams on all doors so that the TO does not need to leave his driving position) Overnights on all lines. The extra crowding on the 1/2 trains can be aliviated by running one additioal trainset per hour.
Reduce adminsrative expenses - Combine mangement of NYCT, MNCR and LIRR. No need for three sets of upper mangement, Human Reasourses and payroll
(What really needs to be done is to improve the effeciencies of the system)
Nothing wrong with that, and it's been happening slowly. But the fare must rise also.
I don't think folks will need to worry about that happening - more details are emerging of what's to come and in an election year, Paturkey is planning to SOCK it to upstate and downstate both with LOTS of new taxes and fees in an election year. Put a fork in the boy, he's pulling a CUOMO ... and here we heard all this "don't worry folks, the Shrub will take care of New York" ... looks like reality hit the ventilator shaft ...
State of the State address at noon tomorrow, budget school next week. THEN we get to tally up the check ... and from what I'm hearing, it's going to be huge ... lots of cutbacks, lots of layoffs and new taxes while Enron gets a fresh cut of "stimulus" ...
I agree with your basic point.
Here's what I'd propose:
The basic peak fare is $2.00, in effect weekdays (except major holidays) 6:00am-9:30am and 3:00pm-6:30pm. An off-peak discount of 25 cents is automatically given at all other times. (Actually, to avoid large crowds by the turnstiles approaching 9:30am and 6:30pm and rushes to enter by 6:00am and 3:00pm, the peak fare would "ramp up" from 6:00am to 6:25am and from 3:00pm to 3:25pm and "ramp down" from 9:05am to 9:30am and from 6:05pm to 6:30pm, one penny per minute.) The fare paid is based on initial boarding time; if I board at 2:55pm and transfer at 5:00pm, I only pay $1.75 total. (Yes, that means it sometimes pays to dip your card on a bus and walk right off.) Express buses charge double the local bus and subway fare: $4.00 peak, $3.50 off-peak.
The bulk bonus is raised to 15% but is only available for purchases of $20 or more and is not available at the token booth. Thus the actual cost per ride to an off-peak rider who qualifies for the bonus is only $1.52.
With the new fare structure come a new unlimited card system, with each type of card available in two versions, one valid at all times and one valid for the off-peak fare only:
Fun Pass off-peak: $4.50
Fun Pass peak: $5.00
7-day unlimited off-peak: $19.00
7-day unlimited peak: $21.50
30-day unlimited off-peak: $70.00
30-day unlimited peak: $78.00
30-day unlimited express bus off-peak: $135.00
30-day unlimited express bus peak: $155.00
Now, for the exciting part: A swipe of an off-peak unlimited card (subject to the usual 18-minute lockout, etc.) is worth $1.75 (up to the cost of a fare); for peak or express bus usage, this can be supplemented with a pay-per-ride MetroCard or (on the bus) in cash to make up a full fare. Similarly for each of the other cards. If you have an unlimited off-peak card, you can still make an occasional peak ride by paying the step-up fee. If you have a 30-day unlimited but one day plan to ride the express bus a few times, you can supplement it with a standard Fun Pass (each card yields $1.75 or $2.00 per swipe).
No tokens. If that leads to complaints, then continue to sell the current tokens at $1.50 apiece, with two tokens required to release the turnstile. Sorry, there's just no point in minting new tokens, and there's no reason for the TA to take a loss on all the tokens currently in circulation.
The only real shortcoming I see here is the confusion that would result if this were implemented. A fare increase is, unfortunately, necessary.
Ain't gonna work fairly because of skeds. TA won't implement SEPTA in/out turnstiles and TA debit cards will never be created. The working poor don't all travel off-peak hours. Only answer is to have fare raised to two bucks. The fare increase will never answer faster service because our trackage doesn't go in a straight line.
>>> TA debit cards will never be created <<<
Don't look now, but the current MetroCards are TA debit cards.
Tom
My plan doesn't require exit swipes -- the fare is based on time of entry.
My plan also doesn't depend on wealth. Rush hour commuters are a greater burden on the system than off-peak commuters, so they should pay more. I don't care who's rich and who's poor.
Maybe that is the problem...who is rich and who is poor. A quick 'jack' from 86th to 59th is far cheaper and faster than a bus or cab. Our subway is a subsidised mode of transport....it benifits the poor and working classes as a means of reliable but slow mode of transport. The affluent from the outer boroughs take express busses...the poor must endure the long but safe ride. CI Peter
The so called "AFFLUENT FROM THE OUTER BORO"S" are acutual hard working middle class people. People who see it better use of thier money to buy their children a book or computer and put food on the table then buy designer clothes. The truely affluent don't ride mass transit. Most people who take express buses due so because subway service in thier area is sub par. A large part of express bus customer are a mothers working to earn a secound house hold income as a secretary or some other adminstrative job in order to help pay the mortgage on the family home and maybe save up enough to take thier children on vacation once a year
EX: are parts of bensonhurst/dyker hierts/bay ridge/ staten island.
IF subway prices were reaised to that of cab fair people would not take a bus or subway. Why put up with the hasel of hot stations and rude transit employees.
Quit frankly most trasit employees make more than so called "AFFLUENT FROM THE OUTER BORO"S"
Hey: twenty five years in private industry working for cheap ass weasels so why shouldn't I make the same money as the 'spray n wipers' of TA. No qualms here about middle class working people. You don't see the affluent on the subway bitching cuz their wireless phones don't work or their fancy clothes get mussed. Truly a humbling experience traveling on MY R142 #2 trainsets at six in the morning.
On my Car Equipment Department logo (remember my posting from OSOTT) is the 'twin towers.' It reminds me of the Lords Grace to be where I'm at. I work hard each and every day. My mother worked hard and saved to take me on vacation every year. Nuff said. CI Peter
Hey if I dont where the fancy suit ( aka the UNIFORM at finacial companies) to work I would be quietly showed the door by the harvard educated prix making $100 k a year. That fancy suit I bought at marshals that is.
I worked hard all through public schoolto get a scolarship to go to college. I work as a salaried worker meaning in exchange for my starting pay of 40 k I have to stay late every night whether or not I have work to impress the boss so i have a shot to move up the latter a bit. The height of the latter I may achieve is limited not by the color of my skin but by the college i attented or didnt attend
FYI cell phone are not for the rich anymore. Quite frnakly they are quite cheap. Free phone $30 a month. NOT TOO BAD
My father worked for the TA for 30 years starting out as a track cleaner. I grew up with stories of him throwing rocks at the rats while taking a break in the tunnels at 3am. He busted his butt so I could go to college and make a better life.
THe people who get hurt the most by raising fares are the people who make the lest in society.
Let me splash some light on your situation
IF you work for the TA you have it better than you thing
Guarenteed employement to you die. A chance for overtime. Little stress if you do your job right
I know what I have...and stress to others the hidden opportunities. If i had known about this 22 years ago...I'd have a great retirement fund and be Unca Steves boss.
NO NO NO NO
The real answer is to utilize technology to cut costs. Raising the cost of mass transit will just persuade people to use another form of transit. I use far fuer cabs due to my monthly unlimited ride pass. Less cars on the road = lower cost of deliveries = lower cost of food on the grocery store shelves.
Many people on this board fail to realize how ineffeicently the MTA is run. Labor costs are the highest expense in operating a transit system. technology must be used to eliminate as much labor costs where possible. It's not that current transit employees are overpaid, it is more that we currently have 3 guys working to screw in one light builb. Four key areas where tremedous savings can be achieved are the following
1) Combining the management of NYC Transit, LIRR and MNCE under one roof. Eliminated separate HR, Payroll and real estae costs.
ESTIMATED SAVING $10-$20 million per year (dont forget about pension and health care bennifits = $15 k a year for the average worker)
2) Eliminate token boothe clerks at most stations. Expand the sale of monthly metrocards by mail/phone/online + enhance metro card sales from local merchants. STATIONS ARE NOT SAFER BECUASE A TOKEN CLERK CAN CALL POLICE. A CALL BOX ON THE PLATFORM plus CCTV is just as effective and far less expensive. THe south end(voorhies) entrence of sheepshead bay station has a token clerk on duty 10% of the time . Thier is no more crime on that end then on the $14th street side. Plus the Voorhies entrence is on a desolate block facinf the belt parkway
3) Upgrade all existing rail equiptment for OPTO SERVICE. The train operator would utilize new vision glases(allows wearer to see an image through regular glassed while also seeing what ahead- used primarily by workers building circuit boards. Real nice technology saw it at a recent tech trade show) which allow the operator to safely cloose all doors Each door has a wireless cam focused on it
5) run shorter trains overnights to further reduce energy expentiures
4)Purchace new hybrid buses, low floor where possible to reduce fuel cnnsumption on buses. Require all operators to turn off busses at terminals( I know they are supposed to, but it is rairly enforced.
6)Utilize air conditioning on bus only when neccissary. I can't tell you how many times air condidioning is still on when the temperture is 65 degrees out.
5) Install cameras on the front of all buses to capture licence plate of vehicles blocking bus stops and bus lanes. The vehicle would be issues a summons similar to summons issues by red light cameras. This would generate an additioal revenue sorce plus allow better on time performance.
THE BEST WAY TO KEEP THE FARE LOW IS TO INCREASE RIDERSHIP. RAISING FAIRS DECREASES RIDERSHIP PUTTING THE COST OF OPERATRING THE SYSTEM OF OPERATING THE SYSTEM ON THE REMAINING SHOULDRS
THe one city one fare and unlimited ride metro card programs have helped to increase ridership and take cars off the road. Our roads are already overcrouded costing NY consumers hundrens of millions of dollars a year in higher cost on things they purchace.
FYI - A large tax is levied on drivers in this city that supports mass transit. Thier are many who would say lower the bridge tolls and raise the subway fair to $6 a ride. Probable the cost it should be if it wasnt for the money diverted over from the mta bridges and tunnels
Commerce is a tough customer...NYC infrastructure depends upon truck delivery, not to mention how many must +drive into the city. Punish those who must drive because of the lack of public transport and you'll kill our city. I could spend all night discussing alternative energy...built a passive solar home. Wanna save big money megawatts? Cut train legnth by coupling cars of necessary passenger requirements and stop using the late night runs as homeless shelters. Make winos pay cash to ride and kick em off out of the station at the last stop. Why have a five car trainset when you have two carloads? Just get one guy to screw in the lightbulb. Private industry versus TA tradition is in conflict...providing 24/7 service and making a profit is what TA must do.
Some good ideas here.
1. There may well be some savings to be had by combining functions among the MTA agencies. I believe LIRR and Metro-North combined purchasing functions a few years ago for that reason -- whether it's worked, though, I don't know.
2. NYCT has been trying to reduce the number of Customer Service Agents (a k a token clerks) and replace them with Metrocard Vending Machines of various types plus out-of-system-sales. The TWU got the ear of various advocacy groups and elected officials, and the matter's in court now. So far, it doesn't look good for NYCT.
3. There are some places where OPTO won't work (curves that are too sharp even with the help of video, but it should be done everywhere it's technologically feasible. To those who say a Conductor is needed everywhere, at all times, I point to all the cases where the Conductor has opened on the wrong side -- do we really need two people for that?
4 (labeled as 5). Running shorter trains in off-hours is a good idea where feasible. However, because of unitized trains, in many cases the choices are: run full-length, or run half-length. Sometimes half-length isn't enough, which means more service would have to be operated, which eats into or eliminates the cost savings from running short trains. Also, there is a cost involved in cutting trains at night and adding them back up in the morning...it has to be looked at carefully, on a case-by-case basis, to determine where it's worth doing.
5 (labeled as 4). I'm very much in favor of hybrid buses if they're diesel/electric -- I'm not big on "alternate fuel" buses, since they tend to be more expensive to buy and more maintenance-intensive for only a small (if any) environmental benefit. Bus Operators are already required to turn off the engine at terminals -- enforcing it would require Dispatchers at all terminals, an expensive proposition (though it also has benefits in reliability), or some form of electronic monitoring. Perhaps when/if NYCT gets an automatic bus tracking system, an engine monitoring system can be part of it.
6. NYC Transit's bus climate control systems are fully automatic. Assuming it's working properly (which is nearly all the time), if the air conditioning goes on it's because it's needed, even if there is an exterior ambient temperature of 65 degrees (as used in the example).
7 (labeled as 5). Bus-mounted cameras that issue tickets are an idea worth considering. It would no doubt require legislation -- I wonder how much support it would garner.
As to the best way to keep the fare low, increasing ridership also increases costs. Diligent, smart schedule-making (that keeps service at a level that meets ridership levels but doesn't exceed them) is part of the equation. Keeping maintenance costs low is another. Ensuring that the appropriate governmental entities provide their fair share of subsidies is also important, and something that isn't entirely within the hands of the transit agency. It's true that raising fares decreases ridership -- that is taken into account by the bean-counters in determining what the fare should be. If ridership is to be cultivated, it should be primarily in the off-peak, where subway cars and track capacity (and buses, on the bus side) are available to increase service where necessary and the personnel are already in place.
David
Can we please cease and desist the practice of off topic posts? It is starting to get realy crazy here. The more off topic posts we put on, the shorter amount of time the title of our transit related posts will be on the first page of the site.
A while ago someone started a thread about the BMT in movies. Maybe this one qualifies. The movie is called, "Bye,Bye Braverman." Anyway I think that's the title. A somewhat pretentious movie about the trials and tribulations of a group of intellectuals on their way to a friend's funeral. I remember a quick bird's eye shot of the Brighton Line's Ocean Parkway station. Don't remember if there were any trains or any other subway shots in it. A lot of the movie had the protagonists driving all around the city, so there's probably a lot of street shots that would interest NYC buffs.
Alan Glick
That one's a real BMT homage. There is a shot of them driving in the VW bug across the Williamsburg Bridge with a numbered train next to them. There is also a great ariel view of the Broadway Junction track maze.
I knew there must have been lots of stuff in that movie that I'd forgotten. When I last saw it, I wasn't yet a rail-fan.
Alan Glick
That's OK. If it wasn't for this website I wouldn't know that BMT trains used to have numbers. I almost wore out the pause button on my VCR trying to figure out why the train marker didn't look like a letter.
If nobody mentioned it previously, "The Little Fugitive" (1953) has some scenes with BMT Standards, I think.
Yes, I mentioned it in the previous thread. At the Stillwell Avenue Terminal.
Alan Glick
I recognized a scene that was shot on Flatbush Avenue near the intersection of Cortelyou Road as (I think) George Segal is in a phone booth trying to get directions to the funeral.
BMTman
A summary of what we know will happen, what seems likely, and then what COULD be built if everyone plays together. Based on releases from PA and TA, personal research and much help from a few SubTalkers.
--------------------------
WHAT WE KNOW *WILL* HAPPEN
--------------------------
IRT 1/9: Service from Chambers to South Ferry to be restored by Nov 2002 by repairing damaged tunnels - Cortlandt to be totally demolished - elevators to be added to Rector and S Ferry stations.
BMT N/R: No info re/closed Cortlandt station.
IND E: No info re/closed WTC (ex Hudson Terminal) terminus.
PATH: Existing station in basement of WTC site to be reopened within 2 years - new accesses likely to be built at ends of platforms to exit to Vesey and Liberty Streets at edge of WTC site.
-----------------
WHAT SEEMS LIKELY
-----------------
IRT: New three-track 10-car S Ferry terminal, perhaps retaining existing 5-car turnaround loop as well. Replacement for demolished Cortlandt station probably tied into ...
PATH: New multi-platform station on lengthened site of old Hudson Terminal station used til 1971 (SE corner of WTC site, from Liberty to Fulton between Church and former Greenwich, between IRT and BMT stations), with loop to/from tubes remaining. Unknown if WTC basement loop would be retained as well.
--------------------------------------------------
WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE TRULY COOPERATED ...
--------------------------------------------------
A single, unified transit complex that connects two parallel two-level stations:
BMT N/R + IND E: Combined two-level Cortlandt station (BMT above, IND below) with merge between IND and BMT tracks south of Cortlandt, north of Rector.
IRT 1/9 + PATH: Combined two-level station (IRT above, PATH below) in old Hudson Terminal station space, moving IRT line east at the north lead from Chambers end and slightly east at the south lead to Rector.
plus UNDERGROUND WALKWAYS TO EXISTING:
- IRT 4/5 Fulton
- BMT J/M/Z Fulton
- IND A/C Broadway/Nassau
- IRT 1/2 Fulton complex
---------------------
ISSUES TO BE RESOLVED
---------------------
- Can you move IRT eastward south of Vesey enough to get it into old Hudson Terminal site? (South end doesn't seem hard, since Greenwich is closer to Church/Trinity at south end than north end)
- Can you fit the connex from a lower level that flies IND up to BMT level into the track space between the south end of current BMT Cortlandt station and the north end of Rector? They look pretty close. (Can't do it north of Cortlandt, says J Lee, due to elevation problems with A/C crossover)
- Could you keep BMT running while building those connex?
- Does the TA gain much/anything useful by allowing E trains to run through the Montague Tunnel and J/M/Z/N/R trains up Eighth Avenue?
- And ... could the PA and TA actually truly work together on this?
I think this scheme works in 3-D. I think it could be built while keeping existing services running. And it would produce many advantages for current transit riders. Plus, the entire WTC site will be open for construction once demolition & recovery is complete.
Comments?
Love your summary. Very helpful.
Is it really that valuable to move tracks around? It would add $1 billion to the tab, and you can never have enough connections for everyone to have a direct ride (except by reducing train frequency to unacceptably low levels). You will always need for most people to change trains once.
I'd personally be overjoyed to see WIDE, STRAIGHT corridors with sufficient escalators and people movers, WITHIN AND OUTSIDE FARE CONTROL, to connect the PATH, 1/9, N/R, E, and Fulton St. complex.
Won't happen. The mugger's lobbying group will force them to build a variable width, twisting, rising and falling, dimly lit corridor with wide pillars and penty of dark alcoves to hide in.
And throw in some extra bumps in the floor so people will trip.
Is it really that valuable to move tracks around? It would add $1 billion to the tab, and you can never have enough connections for everyone to have a direct ride
Well, I think the IRT/PATH piece is more likely since the PA may well resurrect Hudson Terminal. If they do, since IRT Cortlandt will have vanished, you can work the IRT into a new terminal pretty easily since you're designing from scratch. It's just a question of whether they can/would move the IRT alignment.
To me, building one new two-level station shell is cheaper than building two new stations and connecting them -- but since the funding is coming from 2 places, I'm skeptical. But it could happen, maybe.
I'm less convinced the IND/BMT connection would happen. The BMT Cortlandt station isn't too damaged, and to do the connection right (with flyunders) you'd probably have to blow out that station completely (and it was just rehabbed, I think). It's harder to justify demolishing two intact stations (IND World Trade Center & BMT Cortlandt) to build a new single station, but it would have the following advantages:
- added flexibility to interchange IND & BMT (as Hylan intended?)
- all-new fully accessible station designed from scratch
- better connections for IND riders to PATH and IRT
Obviously the TA had no intention of doing any of this pre-9/11. But the opportunity has presented itself, and I for one would hate to see it wasted. Whether or not the Second Avenue Subway gets built in my lifetime, if this reconfiguration doesn't get done now, it won't get done in this new century. I hope the TA makes lemonade out of its lemons.
My feelings exactly, especially the bit about tying together the 8th Av local and BMT Cortlandt tracks.
As for a "new two-level station" for PATH and the IRT, the depths involved likely entail several levels. More likely, there would be a wide, level mezzanine *under* the two Cortlandt stations and *over* the (probably rather high-ceilinged) PATH station.
Actually, it's more tricky than that. The 1 line is about 1 level lower than the N/R (both are just below street level, but W Broadway is lower than Church St). Also, the PATH Hudson Terminal isn't as low as the pre-9/11 PATH station.
Also, it's only 400' from the 1/9 to the N/R, and the PATH tracks will be between those 2 lines. That really isn't very much walking provided the passageways are wide and convenient. That's why I argue that moving tracks isn't worth the money.
It'll take some imagination to figure out the passageways and mezzanines. But the PA has allocated money to start that process right now.
Also, it's only 400' from the 1/9 to the N/R, and the PATH tracks will be between those 2 lines. That really isn't very much walking provided the passageways are wide and convenient.
Hmmmm. I could see some validity in that. Thoughts, though, on the IND/BMT combined station idea?
Moving tracks is great fun to talk about, but it has to bring huge benefits to be worthwhile.
Make a free transfer and a straight passageway between the N/R and the E. This should not be a big deal given there are no buildings in the way any more. Again, this distance is only 400'.
Moving tracks so that Brooklyn BMT folks have even better access to 8th Ave (cross-platform or even direct trains) is not a useful project. Yesterday's NY Times Real Estate section has a map showing exactly where every big building in Manhattan is. Almost none of them are most easily accessed by the 8th Ave line.
Moving tracks so that Brooklyn BMT folks have even better access to 8th Ave (cross-platform or even direct trains) is not a useful project. Yesterday's NY Times Real Estate section has a map showing exactly where every big building in Manhattan is. Almost none of them are most easily accessed by the 8th Ave line.
Well, yeah, at the moment. But midtown from 7th to 3rd is more or less built out. The only big building sites left are now on 8th Avenue in the 40s and 50s, and along 42nd Street west from there.
Again, I don't know enough of the complexities to have any idea whether an IND-BMT track connection would actually improve system flexibility and allow better/faster/more convenient travel for passengers.
You're right, of course, about making a better walking transfer between two existing stations. But I think that's kind of a given with a new PATH station between the IRT and BMT stations ....
Even if 8th Ave becomes a more desirable destination, you also have the splintering effect to consider if you try to connect the E to the N/R. There are 4 services on 4th Ave in Brooklyn. Post-2004, these will have 4 destinations to go to:
Nassau St (M), lower Bway (R), upper Bway via bridge (N), 6th Ave (B, i.e., West End Line). None of these has particularly frequent service. If you add 8th Ave as a destination, you split it up into 5 services with even less frequency.
And none of that would help the Brighton line people, who will have a 6th Ave service and a Broadway-via-bridge service and can get at most one additional service.
You have to balance splintering with easy transfers between lines. A people mover between the R at Cortlandt and the E would improve access from 4th Ave Brooklyn to 8th Ave Manhattan (note that they already have to M-to-A/C transfer at Bway-Nassau). And Brighton Line commuters would get better access to 8th Ave from escalators at W 4th St that actually worked all the time instead of being out of commission a lot.
IRT 1/9: Service from Chambers to South Ferry to be restored by Nov 2002 by repairing damaged tunnels - Cortlandt to be totally demolished - elevators to be added to Rector and S Ferry stations.
I thought they said that would take 2-3 years to rebuild.
I thought they said that would take 2-3 years to rebuild.
That was the PATH. The TA said they plan to have the IRT open by December.
No, I think originally the 1,9 route was also to be closed until 2004. That has changed now and like you said, it will open by the end of the year.
> BMT N/R + IND E: Combined two-level Cortlandt station (BMT above,
> IND below) with merge between IND and BMT tracks south of
> Cortlandt, north of Rector.
I like the idea of a connection, for emergency flexibility if nothing else, but it's not going to happen; there's no way Trinity Street is wide enough to accommodate a junction with the historic buildings along it. No one is going to allow subway construction under Trinity Churchyard for instance. It would be easier to do it if the junction were built *inside* the WTC area by shifting the N/R subway slightly west to allow for a flyunder track to the "E" stub.
IRT -- Given the (relatively) quick repair plans the MTA has for the 1/9 now through the WTC site, the chance of relocating the track route to the east is diminshed. What I hope they do is get some sort of tentative idea about what they and the Port Authority want for a new WTC complex before they begin work. Widening the tunnel at the site to allow for a center platform for both uptown and downtown tracks, with stairs, escallators and elevators going both up one level to the mall level and down one level to the PATH/Hudson Terminal mezzanine (and presumably, the transfer walkways within fare control to the IND and BMT) would seem to make the most sense to me.
PATH -- If the terminal is relocated to its old site and level, the mezzanine level above the tracks would become the center of the transfer connections between the IRT, BMT and IND, since it would be east of Greenwich Street and west of Church, meaning it would only be at most a half-block walk from other subway lines. If the MTA and PA can work out a fare sharing arrangement to allow Metrocard use on both systems and free transfers between the two, even better.
The old WTC PATH mezzanine was full of businesses which made that level of the basement a far more hospitiable place than a simple tile wall does. Having businesses on that level, even if they are outside the fare control zone, would make the connecting tunnels between the IRT, BMT and IND less forbording on nights and weekends if they were connected through that area.
IND/BMT -- The Manny B is the key here -- if the planned fix actually works and all four tracks on the bridge are usable again, then that frees up tunnel space south of Cortlandt to connect up the IND Eighth Ave. tracks to the Montague St. tunnel (you could do it now, but the number of TPH that could use it while sharing trackage with the N and R wouldn't make it worth the effort.
Where it would go once it got to DeKalb would be another question -- it could take the place of the M going to Ninth Ave. or Bay Parkway, or it could just share trackage with the R all the way to 95th St., though I don't know if the Bay Ridge area would warrant a doubling of service (Here's where we could start talking about using the extra trains for a Staten Island subway connection, linked to the Cross Harbor freight tunnel project, but this post is long enough already).
If the current E train tracks were hooked up to the BMT, presumably without a grade crossing north of the Cortlandt St. stop, the current Chambers/WTC terminal would have to be demolished to allow the tracks to drop one level lower, and a new station would have to be built beneath the current BMT station, with the two lines hooking up between Cortlandt and Rector. With the PATH station put back in it's old Hudson Terminal location, the new E station would end up on the same level as the PATH mezzanine. So the east edge of the mezzanine would be part of the downtown E train's platform (side platforms would work better here than an island one, because they would allow direct upstairs/downstairs connection to the BMT Broadway platforms).
The underpass to the uptown BMT and IND platforms would have to be placed beneath that new platfom, and south of Fulton Street or it would be blocked by the Eighth Ave. express tracks turning from Church Street onto Fulton (no big deal, since most of the BMT platform is south of Fulton anyway).
An escallator/elevator or a long ramp with a small grade could still be built from the PATH mezzanine two levels below ground up to the existing walkway from the Church/Vescey St. area one level below the street, that connects to the Chambers St. A/C platform. That would keep the Eighth Ave. express line (and the 2/3 at Park Place) within the WTC complex's fare control zone, but you would have to wall off the east side of the tunnel, since the E trains would be travelling past there at regular speeds. Doing that would make that walkway a little less pedestrian-friendly than it is today, but so long as business reutrns to the area, it should be used enough to keep it from ending up like the 33rd St. tunnel at Herald Square.
Add CNN Headline News to the list of media outlets that just doesn't "get" transit. A short while ago I watched a report on the sooner than scheduled reopening of the 1/9 line to South Ferry. Accompanying the report was a video clip showing the PATH WTC station, complete with a couple stranded cars in the background displaying the PATH logo.
lol.............typical.
Probably stock footage, since camera crews were allowed down to the PATH station, but not to the 1/9. I would of just shown stock footage of an active 1/9 train if I were the producer, if anything at all.
Cameras WERE allowed into the IRT Cortlandt St station for a special photo op ... the only problem is CNN didn't show. So they ended up using what they DID have, footage from MSNBC. It ain't Ted's Atlanta news anymore ... and AOL is a bunch of cheapskates. :)
Yeah, but NY1 is part of AOL Time-Warner. They could've gotten footage from them.
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoops ... forgot about those guys ... not available up here. Then again, AOLTimeWeenie bites itself so hard in the Capit-hole region, everybody's got a dish out here. But the footage that I saw on CNN definitely was MSNBC, they even had their logo on top of the MSNBC logo with a bit of the peacock pooking out around it. Good thing for the Columbia School of Urinalism that Edward R Murrow is still dead - he would have had a conniption. :)
I saw that clip, too - knew those were PATH cars.
Were the 1939 World's Fair Lo V's still in relatively good shape after they were removed from the Third Avenue El in 1969? They were only 30 years old. Could they have been kept running, or were they functionally obsolete being based on a design from the first IRT equipment, and impossible to maintain?
I was 4 years old when they were pulled, and remember a shopping trip with my grandmother from Fordham Road back up to Gun Hill on them.
From pictures that I see, it looks like they could have got a few more years out of them.
Even though they were built in 1939, they were merely based on an older Low V design. They were bargain basement budgeted cars to begin with.
The World's Fair Lo-Vs were a tiny fleet of just 50 cars, which I'd imagine had become a non-standard annoyance to maintain by the late '60s. Given their already dated design when built and the service they ran in their latter days on the decaying Third Avenue El, they didn't stand much of a chance to hang around.
The problem with these cars was not so much their age but how poorly they'd been maintained. The Bronx Third Avenue El was a war zone which was allowed to deteriorate almost to the point of collapse. Everything that came in contact with it, cars, neighborhoods, passengers, etc, suffered as a result. As such, whereas on almost any other line the cars would have no doubt been able to contine, on the Third Avenue El they aged beyond their years. That's why they were pulled so soon.
Eric Dale Smith
The Third Avenue El was a war zone? It caused the decay of the neighborhoods surrounding it? Could it have been the other way around?
I don't know, Eric, I have alot of fond memories. If it were so bad, why would a 65 year old man with a bad heart regulary take his grandsons down to 149th and come back up via White Plains Road?
Fact is that the Bronx Third Ave el section was maintained even less than other parts of the system, which means a lot since the era of deferred maintenance meant nothing much was ever done unless an emergency situation occured. I've heard stories of sagging iron struts on the oldest sections south of Fordham Rd, holes in the wooden station platforms and iron bolts and other debris raining down on the streets below whenever a train passed overhead. There was even a story about a broken rail which was temporarily replaced with a piece of wood!
Yep, I can attest to the wood with steel strip on top on the northbound track just north of 156th St ... rode it. Also had a collection of bolts and J clamps from 204th where I lived. And yet, the El was still more solid feeling on a platform than the White Plains line at the same time. You could TELL its days were numbered and that the city wanted it gone, had diddle for ridership and all. But BOY were they surprised when they went to take it down. Whole sections of it (especially above Fordham) refused to go quietly.
Still a damned shame though losing SO many els ... especially the 3rd.
I agree. Not only were they "neglected" but they were slower than the Seven Year Itch. I rode them on a daily basis to/from high school in 1964-1967. I hated those cars. The not only travelled slow, but the doors were really slow, adding to the trip time.
I could either ride south from Fordham to 149th....or ride north to Gun Hill and hop on a Thru Express and beat classmates who did it the southbound way all the way on Third Avenue!! (Of course, in those days, the Thru Express was on the center track from Gun Hill to 149th...)
First, only the car bodies were brand new. They used older running equipment that the IRT had on hand.
Second, they were non-standard. There was not much point in keeping them going and maintain parts and maintenance standards for such a small fraction of the fleet.
Look at other serviceable equipment that was dumped before its time because it was non-standard--e.g.--the SIRT cars (they ran for another dozen years on the SIRT). Outstandingly, the Triplexes, a fleet about 6x as big, three of which manage to still run at 3/4 of a century old.
They used older running equipment that the IRT had on hand.
They did?? Yeah, the trucks are the typical IRT standards,
but the traction motors, grid resistors, compressor and control
package were all in the "modern" style (e.g. WH ribbon grids
with the floating porcelains, UP-style switchgroup). What
parts were recycled?
I'm not an expert on IRT equipment. This was my understanding from conversation with TA personnel back when they were still running.
They didn't happen to mention which components? I'd be interested
in knowing what the IRT could have recycled in 1938. Maybe
Larry R33 has some insight?
That tells you how well the Triplexes were built.
Let's not forget also that the WF's were built at a time that the IRT was ALREADY in bankruptcy, with demands from the city that they produce SOMETHING presentable for the "World's fair" ... what got thrown together was about the best the IRT could muster. The BMT came up with Q cars.
In their last days on the 3rd avenue el, they WERE troublesome though given the condition of cars on other lines, had everyone known that the 3rd Avenue el WAS going to be taken down just four years later, my bet is that they COULD have survived to the end of the line. Back in '69 though, nobody wanted to believe the third was going to really die.
At least my beloved 5655 is still alive and well :-)
-Mark
Any word on how the Transit museum's restoration's going on it? Looked pretty natty in the photos here of her ...
You remember them??? Yo buddy, I remember the 63 WF. CI Peter
Yeah ... the last ones ran on the third avenue el - you'd almost always see them on the north motor, sometimes all but the middle car in 5 car sets. I was born in 1951, so I did miss the trylon and perisphere. Did manage to make '64-'65 often. I *liked* the old girls though I was more fascinated by the regular LoV's ...
Well, I don't know about the "alive" part ... at least there's hope that she can be restored to operate again.
Mr rt__:^)
Before the subway took over the line, where did the tracks go south of 180, or did the original line start there. Are there any remnants left south?
The tracks were part of the New York Westchester and Boston RR. To the south they went to the 132nd St. - Harlem River terminal. The original ROW overpass south of E180th St. was removed about two years ago. The original NYW&B station at E180th St still stands and is used by the NYCT.
Right ! Go outside & see the remaining details that still remain.
180th all by itself is a very interesting place to visit, i.e. switches, yards on both side of the main line, etc.
Mr rt__:^)
Plenty of information available on the New York, Westchester & Boston page on this site.
I used to live in Ridgewood, and a bunch of movies were filmed along the M line in the late 80's to early 90's. For instance, all the in town scenes of Brighton Beach Memoirs were filmed at Seneca Avenue Station on the M. The opening scenes of Malcolm X were filmed at Myrtle Wyckoff. There was a movie filmed at Forest Ave in the early 90's at Forest Ave on the M, with Melanie Grifith under the station, and all along the street at Forest Ave. The whole area was a big part of the movie. It had a Jewish theme, I believe, but I'll be damned if I remember the name. Anyone know?
It was called "A Stranger Among Us" and was shot in the fall of 1991. The kid of an ex of mine was in it, the redhead playing the rabbi's
son. He is sitting on the steps when "Detective" Griffith walks up, and checks out her legs as she goes by. You can't start them too young!!
I was working the M shuttle during the filming and was blinded by all the lighting in the neighborhood.
Why there? The Jewish neighborhood was Williamsburgh ...
That was the strangest part! I never saw so many Hisidic Jews in Ridgewood! The architecture of the building where that segment was filmed somehow must have fit into the mood (or time frame) of the movie.
The movie was set in Williamsburgh. I guess they liked the way the Forest Avenue station area looked better than actually filming in Williamsburgh. If they wanted shots with the el in it, Forest on the M is a better neighborhood than filming the movie around the Broadway el. The buildings are also very nice architectually.
It's funny, the filmers were using an old mansion by the station at the corner of Putnam Ave and Forest Avenues for a "temple". At the time it had been used as a kniting mill, but it was a very pretty building. Funny thing is now it actually is converted to a church! At one point during the move (I just saw it) Melanie Grifith says, "I'll meet you at the corner of Putnam and Forest!" They made no effort to cover up the location in the movie. The Forest Ave sign is visible in many scenes. I guess unless you live in Ridgewood or Williamsburg, no one else would notice that Forest and Putnam is in Ridgewood not Williamsburgh.
Supposedly the REAL Hasids (an extremely insular group) residing in Williamsburg wouldn't allow the filming of a movie depicting them in their neighborhood, so the filmmakers went to Ridgewood, whose row houses and el make it look reasonably like Williamsburg.
I saw the movie on video many years ago and don't recall them specifying the locale as Williamsburg or anywhere else.
Yeah it was pretty neat. Under the el between Madison and Putnam Avenues, they had trailers for Dressingrooms. Micheal J Fox's wife and Melanie Griffith literally lived under the M train during filming for a few days. Now that I know the name of the movie again, I have to go rent it.
That movie was horrible. Speaking of equally horrible movies, there are several scenes from the 1995 movie "The Jerky Boys" filmed on Fresh Pond Road with excellent views of the M platform there.
Hey that's almost every station on the M el that had a movie filmed at it.
Fresh Pond Road - The Jerky Boys
Forest Avenue - A Stranger Among Us
El Between Forest and Seneca Stations - French Connection
Seneca Avenue - Brighton Beach Memoirs
Wyckoff Avenue - Malcolm X
Hey that's almost every station on the M el that had a movie filmed at it.
Fresh Pond Road - The Jerky Boys
Forest Avenue - A Stranger Among Us
El Between Forest and Seneca Stations - French Connection
Seneca Avenue - Brighton Beach Memoirs
Wyckoff Avenue - Malcolm X
Actually in addition to those listed:
Knickerbocker Avenue had a movie filmed in front of the police station that you can see from the station, but I can't remember what the movie was.
Myrtle-Broadway had a scene from "Ghost" filmed by it.
So that just leaves Central and Metropolitan without a movie.
I believe "The Warriors" was filmed at Fresh Pond station as well as many other stations on the system.
I always liked the way the makers of the "Warriors" movie made Eastern Parkway on the J train look like Woodlawn on the #4.
Hello fellow SubTalkers
There have been many attempts in the past to try and get a handle on what everyone's favorite subway car is. Voting by thread is rather chaotic and unscientific. I now believe that I have found an alternative that will be fun for all.
Of course, I would be taken away in a straight jacket and thrown in the Randall's Island asylum if I felt that this would: a) resolve anything, or b) come to a definitive answer. The question of what everyone's favorite subway car is, after all, unanswerable. That is why we're here, that is why this message board is here, and that is why the question will be debated until the end of time.
I simply felt that it would be fun to try and produce a scientific poll, and let everyone argue over the results ad infinitum.
Please be sure to read the notes at the bottom regarding this poll. Now without further adieu, and to put my newfound web skills to the test, here is the first of many polls I hope to produce:
Notes:
1) You may only vote once! The script will not allow you to vote multiple times, ensuring the validity and objectivity of the results. So no complaining that people are cheating!
2) This is for fun.
3) The script only allows 10 questions. That's why I had to break the polls down by division. The next question will be what is your favorite in-service IND/BMT rolling stock. I hope to produce many other polls in the future.
4) The script is powered by Bravenet.com. A special thanks to Dave Pirmann for hosting a message board powerful enough to support fun JavaScript games like this. Thanks Dave!!!
5) Taking the poll is free and harmless.
6) Polling will be open for 5 days. That will give everyone sufficient time to find the thread and vote. The poll will close at 1:00 PM EST on Thursday, January 10th, 2002.
Whenever it comes in, it will be 6969.
It's gotta be the WF R36.
That was what I voted for, simply because he neglected to insert the R110A, which is my absolute favorite IRT car for one obvious reason.
This may be a stupid question, but is the r110a in service? I had to limit this poll to in-service rolling stock, based on David Pirmanns web site list. If the r110a is in service, then I did make an error. Thanks for voting anyways,
MATT-2AV
it isnt
1) You may only vote once! The script will not allow you to vote multiple times, ensuring the validity and objectivity of the results. So no complaining that people are cheating!
Um, I voted twice, and the second vote was counted. I felt bad that nobody voted for the R26.
Ooops.
We'll just keep that secret to ourselves.
I tried to vote twice when I first posted, and it wouldn't let me.
Thanks for voting, and we'll see if we can drum up more support for the R26,
MATT-2AV
Is there really enough difference between R62 and R62a and R142 and R142a to merit separate voting?
Or, for that matter, within the various Redbird classes?
I'd say five categories would yield more meaningful results: Redbird-ML, Redbird-WF, R-62(A), R-110A, and R-142(A).
I'm disqualified: the best of the bunch is an EP because it's a R62 specialty car that doesn't take passengers , just tows work platforms and garbage. It really is too early to sort out the R142/R142A choices because for the passengers upstairs, THEY ARE IDENTICAL! CI Peter
The results will be combined. They are built, after all, by separate manufacturers. I wanted to see if there was any difference in the preference of manufacturer. I felt it was better to be too refined than too general. The results can be combined to see broader trends. I had 10 spots, so I might as well as use them all. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
I'd say the R-33's. Always like them on 2 or the 4. Mainly because of the speedometer.
The R-33 gets my vote as well. The ones on the 2 are still in pretty good shape. Nothing compares with the Redbird express from 96 to Chambers.
Wimp...never got your hands dirty. Reef em. CI Peter
My hands are always dirty after a day of railfanning. Always. (Nothing like yours, I'm sure.)
I, for one, am looking forward to an early morning Redbird express ride from 96 to 42 on a 5. Even if it is an R-28 or somesuch.
What?! No R22?
THATS RIGHT !!!........&..no r-12s... r-15s ...r-22s....r-17s...
oh yea........all of em' RAILFAN WINDOW EQUIPPED !!
& the r21-22- had a split OPEN railfan window .....................YEA MAN !!! OH YEA OH YEA !!!
WOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPEEEEE!!!!!!
I feel like a kid again .....lol !!
"I feel like a kid again .....lol !!"
I'm glad to hear so. Don't worry, Salaam, there will be a separate vote for retired IRT cars.
The script only allows 10 options, and I couldn't fit all the retired cars in with the in-service cars, so I felt it would be best to have a separate vote.
MATT-2AV
( smile ) just venting off some steam !
cant help it the big URGE hits me !!
he he he lol !!
See my response to Salaam. I didn't have enough room to fit in in-service and retired cars in the same vote, so we'll have to have a separate vote for retired cars.
MATT-2AV
Actually I prefer 3 types of cars ;the R14(had to love those R11/R34 windows on the doors),the R36(you can't really break it down between ML and WF anymore they all run on the Flushing line now,only the R33 can be broken down that way.And the R142 and R142A .I think both are great cars.
LOW-V
My vote goes to the WF R-36s in their original paint scheme.
But yeah, who could get excited about IRT cars once the LoV's were gone? To me, the "redbirds" were interlopers, having deprived me of my favorite ride. Fortunately, I could STILL get my yayas on the 3rd Avenue el until that got revoked as well.
The LoV's were in truly sorry shape, but just like the R1/9's, they had *SOUL* ... truly BAD transportation, but for railnuts, the ULTIMATE rail experience ... and yeah, I *still* realize, especially having worked the mainway, that the subway's primary purpose is to be TRANSPORTATION, not an amusement park ride. But still, if the TA abandons another line, it REALLY should be set aside *AS* an "amusement park" ... maybe we could rebuild the Culver shuttle? The LUCIANO run on the Frankie with Mickey Mouse hoisting a BEER at Consumer's Park station rebuilt? Maybe take some of that Atlantic Avenu steel and rebuild two stops on the MYRTLE?
What the hell! If NYC is going for "la tourista" then why not rebuild PARK ROW and the ROW over the Brooklyn Bridge? Wuh-oh ... better check what I've been smoking. Damned Quebec border "duty free shops!" (Los Cubanos) Heh.
Sorry no vote from me because your list is missing Lo-V, Hi-V, R-12, R14, R-15 R-17, etc.
Why are these important, because some still exist & can be ridden for the 1st time, then again & again. (which I did a few years ago aboard a Lo-V & a Hi-V).
Mr rt__:^)
I was coming home from work eariler this week and when I got off my train, another train was pulling in on the opposite track. The train was not slowing down, then I heard the brakes squeal really loud and the train over ran the platform by one car length. First time I saw a train overrun a platform, it was cool. What was really sad is that the train was only 4 cars long, which means it had 300 ft (or 150 front and back) of leeway, and it still missed.
My question is: the train sat there for a moment and opened the doors, and the red lights that light up on the outside when the doors are open were lit up on the first car which was in the tunnel. Does that mean the doors were open on that car? I couldn't tell. There's a walkway on the side of the tunnel, but still it's suprising to me to open the doors on that car.
Err, TD will correct me if I mis-recall....even if you have
cut-out every door panel on the car, the exterior guard light
will still come on when the conductor presses the door open
button.
Absolutely correct. As long as either the unlocking wire or opening wire in a car is energized, the guard light will come on. Locking out the door(s) will not de-energize the DRO or DRU wires.
Now if you DC1, DC2 you can open the crew door but you can't close it?
And while we are asking if you make an unintentional add with another charged piece you don't dump do you? It is the imbalance in the pressure that makes you dump?
And while we are asking if you make an unintentional add with another charged piece you don't dump do you?
In general, this is true.
If the R143s were to run anywhere other than the BMT Eastern Division, how would they make 10 car trains if the need persisted?
Get rid of the if. These cars are for the Eatern division only.
I think they could be reconfigured into 10 car sets if they had to, but that will probably never happen. The R143 will be born and will die on the Eastern division.
You never know what might happen. Just throwing out the possibility.
They could just change them to 5 car sets. If there wer too many loose A cars then you might get 1-2 all A car sets.
It is not such a big deal if they move them the barns would get overhauled, too.
When I was in NYC, I noticed the following errors in C/R transfer announcements:
No 7 at 23rd on the V and E.
No E, G, or V on the 7 (I think, can't remember for sure)
No F at 59th on any of the 6 trains I rode
No 6 at Lexington on the F
They announced the W on the 6 at 59th both times I was there on Saturday 12/29
The C/Rs on the R142A need to learn to wait for that stupid tone to sound before they announce the V and W at the respective stations. The one time I was on an R142 the C/R waited and made excellent announcements. On the 6, you normally get this:
F: This is 51st Street.
M: Transfer to the E and F
DING
(silence)
(doors open)
F: This is a Brooklyn Bridge...
One C/R cut off the F but didn't say anything about the V that we could actually hear.
Anyone know why they still do this and/or who to complain to?
You will make an excellent conductor.
Thanks.
Why waste valuable time and your breath. 'The next stop is...watch the closing doors.' Human error on my R142 #2s. CI Peter
The MetroCard-only transfers are generally not announced. The one in Manhattan isn't even signed; the one in Queens is.
As for correcting the outdated R-142(A) announcements, most C/R's (in my experience) don't bother. Only once have I heard a correction made, at 42, and I ride R-142's on the 2 all the time.
And don't expect updates.........be glad that ur R142 #2 doesn't hang up. CI Peter
I'll be glad if my R142 #2 makes its scheduled stop at 86th Street! The last one I rode didn't.
I thought that when the V Trains started to run they were going to reprogram the automated announcements on the new trains. What happened?
Also, about a year ago, when I rode a #2 Train of R-142's, I noticed they never announced a transfer to the #3 Line, even though it made every single stop my train made on the stretch that I was on.
- Lyle Goldman
I thought that when the V Trains started to run they were going to reprogram the automated announcements on the new trains. What happened?
That's what I had heard as well. I don't know what happened. The need for corrections is even more pressing than anyone on 7/22 had imagined it would be at the end of the year.
Also, about a year ago, when I rode a #2 Train of R-142's, I noticed they never announced a transfer to the #3 Line, even though it made every single stop my train made on the stretch that I was on.
The R-142's announce the transfer to the 3 at 135 and Franklin. Neither one makes much sense now; 135 never made sense.
I got Peter Dougherty's new Third Edition of the Tracks of the NYC Subway and it is great as always. If you do not have yours yet, get it now. I also have all his other editions of the Subway Tracks and they are awesome also.
Strength and Honor to Peter Doughtery and the new Third Edition of the Subway Tracks on NYC.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Cool. I am writing my check to Peter right now.
Tunnel Rat
I was just checking out the subway bibliography on this site, and I noticed that it lists just about all the movies, films and documentaries that feature the New York City subway system. I know there are a lot of movies that feature transit scenes from other cities, for example:
"Streets Of Fire" (1984) It shows a great deal of Chicago "L" footage.
"Rocky" (1976) Although I haven't seen the film in its entirety, I know it shows footage of SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line with the M-3 ("Almond Joy") cars.
Does anyone know of other movies that feature "non-New York" transit systems (Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, etc.)? Will they eventually be listed on this site in subway bibliography?
The film 'Blow Up' (circa 1981) has John Travolta riding the subway-surface lines to Penns Landing (since it's already fantasy, he's riding in a red/white/blue Bicentennial scheme ex-KC car, and we know they never operated in the subway).
The film 'Avalon' (mid-80's) has several scenes with Baltimore PCC's including one where a car derailed and ran into a gas station. A rubber-tired mock-up was built and used for many of these scenes, in addition to the PCC at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. At least one scene I recall had the main characters riding on a car.
There's quite a few movies that feature the Chicago "L", as most movies being filmed in Chicago usually feel obligated to include at least one passing "L" shot (and of course, everybody in Chicago lives directly under an "L"). Here's a few that come to mind offhand:
The Blues Brothers (a Chicago classic!) has numerous "L" scenes, including the "L" outside their apartment window and the chase scenes under the "L" structure.
The Fugitive features the "L" at several critical points of the movie's plot.
Adventures in Babysitting has a gang fight scene on a 6000-series train.
There's a Patrick Swayze movie (I forget the name offhand) that features a chase scene on the roofs of passing "L" trains.
High Fidelity has a short scene that takes place on a 2600-series "L" train.
And of course, the new movie Ali features a couple 6000-series cars on loan from the Illinois Railway Museum.
And while the "L" isn't critical to the plot of either Backdraft or Ferris Bueller's Day Off, there is at least one passing "L" scene in each movie. And The Untouchables, while not directly featuring the "L", has a famous shoot-out scene on the steps inside Chicago's Union Station.
Other cities' transit scenes:
The Man With One Red Shoe has a scene that supposedly took place on the Washington Metro, but in reality was the Baltimore Metro.
Speed and a couple other action movies feature the LA Metro Red Line.
I don't recall any transit scenes from Boston or Philly offhand, but I'm sure they're out there.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"While you were sleeping" also, one of my FAVORITE Sandra Bullock films.
IIRC it showcases the 3200-series cars.
DAMN! Now you're getting me in trouble with L car lovers, possibly getting me on BIG ED's sheet list too! Dunno what cars they were, I call them "Bob Newhart cars" ( zenith of duh! ) ... I only watched the movie because Sandra Bullock back then was my ULTIMATE fantasy babe) ... no offense intended towards Chicago, but I've BEEN THERE ... their "L's" are built like the Myrtle, the 5th, the 3rd and everything ELSE that's been torn down in NYC as "rickety" ... NO JOKE! I am *NOT* kidding. What passes for "L" in CHICAGO was excused to *US* as "CRAP!"
REPEAT ... I'm *NOT* kidding. Chicago is RUNNING what WE TRASHED!!!
Tells us all something here on NYC subtalk ... Chicago has NO PROBLEM with all WE DESTROYED!!! Is Chicago wrong, or are WE?
Since trolleys used to run around the Loop, and some L cars themselves were rebuilt PCCs, I've started to wonder why the CTA is classed as a heavy rail line. Maybe this is not a New York vs. Chicago comparison but rather between the two vehicle categories. And while the salty smell of the Hudson River beats Lake Michigan, nothing will equal that tar aroma the wooden L platforms have!!
It IS a remarkable piece of work and what amuses me is how PROUD Chiagoans are of their "L" while here in NYC, there seems to be a neverending urge to get rid of every last one ...
Also, all the fire escapes in Chicago are wooden. Is it a "rickety" town?
It "tottles" ... it's a pretty cool city given its midwest location. :)
Those elevated structures in Chicago weren't built that lightly. Keep in mind that North Shore trains came in on the Loop for years, and those interurbans weighed a few tons more apiece than the BMT standards. There was an article in the Tribune when the Green Line was shut down for rebuilding, and it stated that those lines were overbuilt. If they needed a structure capable of supporting a thousand tons, they'd build it to support 2,000 tons.
That's jusy good 19th Century engineering. Look at a lot of things engineered 1880-1900. It's over built. Take the Baltimore tunnel fire last year. The fear was that the heat might have weakened the tunnel arch. Once the fire was out and the tunnel was expected, all they found was that the 2500 degree heat did was burn all the steam/diesel soot off. The brick arch was scoured almost clean. I've pulled a 20 ton steel streetcar with a 9 ton single truck wooden car built in 1898. Overbuilt!!
I'm willing to bet the Atlantic Ave. tunnel falls into that category.
Do they still do tours of the Atlantic tunnel? I took one 7 or so years ago. It was very interesting. Have they done anything with it in those years? I know there was talk of excavating behind the wall at the end. Anyone have any word of what has been happerning, if anything?
Bob Diamond would like to extend his PCC line to that tunnel.
I think it's a very l-o-n-g range plan.
Mr rt__:^)
You mean the Red Hook line. Wow, cool, but waaaaaay long in the future!
Once Bob gets his loop done so he can run a PCC around it with customers, then it will be easier for him to extend the line little by little into Brooklyn ... he'll have a fleet of three operating cars pritty soon (well two of them are stuck in the barn right now until the pier gets fixed).
Mr rt__:^)
Pretty cool. What streets is this all going on now. Where are his tracks?
Red Hook, down by the water (Bob's site is down so I can't give you the specific address).
Mr rt__:^)
Two plans are afoot that I know of.
One: acquire a piece of property on either side of the street so that folks could use it as a future tunnel entrance/exit instead of the current 'middle of the street-through the manhole entrance' that now exists.
Two: extend the BHRA trolley line to downtown Brooklyn and run the line through and OUT of the tunnel (which would be near Adams/Boerum Streets).
Bob D could best answer these questions though.
BMTman
Is there a website for the BHRA?
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/TROLLEYS/redhook/redhook.html
That the best I can do for now (during lunch).
Wow the trolly would be great. It would also help the transit museum. It would also bring tourists. Nice idea!
What's amazing though is that they don't LOOK that sturdy - whereas NYC used mostly box girder designs in the dual contracts constructions, Chicago went for the older "Gilbert erector set" style girders of open construction type. That's the comparison that caught my eye when I first got out there. And what is commonplace in Chicago for El structure was ripped down in NYC for being "rickety" ... Go figger ...
I've read with amusement all the joking about Chicago's obsolete 'L'.
We'll, I'll agree that our system can come nowhere near the NYC system in terms of sheer size and carrying capacity.
But, it works for Chicago. We also have three short subways and many miles of line in the median of expressways and on embankment. Not to mention we have some running at grade, complete with crossings, on a few branches also.
The Loop 'L' is over 100 years old and carries the trains of four lines five days a week. Yes, our stations are old and wooden, but we have more recently rebuilt ones also. In fact, there is much variety on the CTA 'L'.
One thing that can be said for the CTA is that they know how to run their trains - 55 MPH on open stretches of elevated right-of-way. The last time I road ANYTHING in NYC it hardly broke 40 MPH.
New Yorkers can say what you want about the Chicago 'L'. It works for us - most of the time. At least when there is a delay, we know where we are.
I ride it daily.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
You don't need to defend the L on this board; there was a SubTalk Chicago field trip Labor Day weekend.
It seems some of the posters on SubTalk think they have the right to take 'shots' at the 'L'.
Wonder is any of them have ridden it?
Jim Kramer
Chicago
I have ... several times ... even went underground for a while. Even got off at "Sedgewick" out of curiosity and had a look around. That's why I was so amazed by what I saw ... once again, not intended as an insult to Chicago at all - meant it as an insult to NEW YORK for trying to tell us that such elevated construction was begging for mass casualties and that was why WE tore them down ... seemed to be working just fine in a place that's often colder and windier than NYC ...
I rode through the Loop and took the State Street line in the summer of 1988. The former was a neat ride; the latter was shabby, smelly and the stations had poor lighting, at the time.
From what I've read, things have gotten better...
I've ridden on the Red line lots of times, as my aunt lives right next to it. Been on the 6000s, 2000s, 2400s, and 2600s on that line. The subway runs are positively deafening.
I've also been on the Blue Line with 2200s and rode on the Orange Line once on the 3200s. Rode on the Evanston Express twice with the 6000s.
Never rode on the 4000s, but remember seeing them on the Evanston Express.
Just so ya know (since I'm the one making most of the comments) I am ENVIOUS of Chicago for having the stones to keep and use elevateds that New York City considered to be "rickety old crap" ... Chicago PROVES that many of NYC's L's died in VAIN ... I just wish we could get some of ours BACK ...
When Eileen and I were on our honeymoon, we saw a car right after it collided with an "L" support column IN THE LOOP. This car was driven by a ***SPEED***LUNATIC***. the whole front of the car was GONE, smashed flat. and the "L" column was unscathed Chicago"s wonderful "L" system is anything but junk!
Yep ... I noted the same thing when I was there and looked at it. Amazingly, New York's old now gone els were built the SAME WAY. And they kept trying to tell us that they were deathtraps and off to the cutter's torch ours went ... Chicago's structures prove that the old els could still be with us ...
yes and no.
some facts
1. in the early sixties speed restriction were imposed on the Jackson Park Branch below 61st on account structural problems which culminated decades later in complete shutdown, demolition and partial reconstruction(mot the full route)
The 4000's were heavy cars and were the backbone of the fleet until the second order of PCC L cars6201 up IIRC.
The Lake St line has also been completely rehabbed.
The Douglas end of the Blue is next and that leaves the inner part of the Red and a short part of the Ravenswood and the Blue from the portal to the second tunnel as semi original structures. (Repairs/maintenance have been done I assume on some of these over the years if only because modifications have happened.
Indeed the 6000's were PCC like in construction and weight. so they pounded the rails more gently.
And from the other POV, I remember clearly 'feeling ' the approach of a train on the IRT before hearing it. (I was somewhere north of Spuyten Duyvil on the B'way Local)
Thanks for the background ... and yep, I lived near 231 and Broadway (second stop north of the bridge) on the Broadway line and moving steel IS a good thing. You could REALLY feel the 3rd avenue el as a train was coming and I noticed similar on the loop in Chi-Town. of course, the Jamaica El in Brooklyn would REALLY let you know there was a train running SOMEWHERE on the line. Heh.
The all-steel 4000s were the heaviest cars to run in Chicago, and yet they weighed the same as a typical IRT R unit - about 38 tons.
The 6000s were indeed based on the PCC design. In fact, 6201-6720 and the 50 singles for Evanston service were built from parts cannibalized from Green Hornet streetcars.
When My wife and I were dating, our favorite movie was "While You Were Sleeping"., When we got married, our honeymoon was in Chicago and I let Eileen plan the activities, as long as we rode the L to get there. Seeing the station featured in the film along with the other unique aspects of the L, has caused both of us to fall in love with your system.
Don't forget Steve McQueen's swan song, "The Hunter," where he swings from the pantograph of a Skokie Swift car. There's an obscure flick, "Six Bridges to Cross," from the 50s where Tony Curtis is on a platform at North Station and there are Orange Line subway cars and Green Line PCCs running side by side.
"Trains, Planes, and Automobiles" also filmed a scene near the end on CTA.
George Lucas' early film (1970), THX 1138 has scenes filmed in the then-incomplete BART tunnels in the San Francisco area. Donald Pleasence and a young Robert Duval make for a not-so-shabby cast, considering this was near-zero-budget picture.
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0066434
The Patrick Swayze film for 1989 was 'Next of Kin' that David refers to. Truman Gates, played by Swayze, is a Chicago detective and must investigate his brothers death which concerns the mob. Truman's brother Briar Gates, played by Liam Neeson, travels from the south to hunt and avenge the killing of their brother because Truman just isn't gettin the job done.
It is Briar Gates, who takes up residence in some Uptown flophouse in the vicinity of Wilson Avenue during his stay in Chicago, you riding the rooftop of 2600's. I don't recall if the curves depicted in the rooftop train scenes are that of Sheridan Road or North/Halsted.
For one of my all time favorite 1980's scenes of the 'L' don't forget 'Runnin Scared'(1986). Gregory Hines driving along the Ravenswood line, the actual right-of-way, in the squad car in hot pursuit of the bad guy, Jimmy Smits, while Billy Crystal gives a running report on their location along the line. Lots of PCC's to be seen in that one. Lots of scenes of the Near Northside before gentrification.
Jim Kramer
Didn't the beginning of Runnin Scared El chase scene start with the Skokie Swift right of way? I thought I remembered a CTA train with pantograph crossing a grade crossing.
"Didn't the beginning of Runnin Scared El chase scene start with the Skokie Swift right of way? I thought I remembered a CTA train with pantograph crossing a grade crossing."
Yes, that is the one.
Jim K.
And in fact, this film was on cable last night, one of the HBO channels I think. Liam is Irish, and you can see there was a lot of dubbing to get his West Virginia accent right. It is not a very good movie.
What little I saw of it suggests he was subway surfing. He's shown jumping from one train roof to that of a second opposing-running train.
"What little I saw of it suggests he was subway surfing. He's shown jumping from one train roof to that of a second opposing-running train."
Yes, that's the one. He jumped from one train to another. Did you notice that the rooftops of the cars had a special covering, which squared off the roof, and I expect made it safer to do that stunt. If you regularly ride the CTA, you'd notice the roofline of the cars was not the norm.
I agree with you, the movie was BAD!
Jim K.
Chicago
Another Chicago flick, Blankman, will be on the Comedy Channel Saturday. It's about a superhero whose version of the Batmobile rides the rails of the Milwaukee L. His Batcave was cleverly placed in the then-closed Grand station.
From Boston is Fuzz. The opening credits have an Orange Line train emerging from the north end of the tunnel onto what was then the Charlestown el. Raquel Welch descends from a station to a police district next to a park.
add 'Code of Silence' w/ a fight staged on the roof of L cars crossing from M Mart to the Loop.
also a brief dawn scene at Jackson Park before demolition in Stony Island
BTW if ...One Red shoe is the spy thriller set in DC w/ a Soviet Mole in the Navy, the subway scenes are both. He runs down into a DC Metro entrance but the next shot has him coming down to a Baltimore Station.
Any film with shots of the Baltimore Subway (Metro) posing as any other system were always shot on Sunday, as the line didn't run on Sundays.
I suspect there won't be too much of thay type any more, as we now have 7-day a week operation, unless the film companies want to film between 1:30 and 5 AM.
Speaking of Chicago, let's not forget:
Risky Business (1983) - Famous sceen of Tom Cruise and Rebecca De Moirnay making love on one of the single unit PCC L cars in the State St. subway.
The Sting (1973) - Scenes of L tracks and platforms, but no trains.
-- Ed Sachs
I'm almost certain that a shot of a 6000 does appear very briefly in The Sting. An anachronism, of course. It should have been a 4000 or a wooden car.
And didn't "Predator II", (early '90s) set "in the future" in 1997, feature shots of a yet to be built LA subway???
There s a 4000 train in one scene
I was almost certain it was a 6000, but it's years since I saw the film. Were there any 4000s still running in '73? It was my understanding that the film was shot using contemporary 1973 Chicago scenery which looked like the thirties.
Whatever the car, it was in the green and cream colour scheme, not the green, orange and salmon authentic for the period the film was set in.
What about "Bad Boys"? In that movie, there was a rape under the Evanston Line EL.
Trading Places has a beginning scene showing the Philadelphia EL. 48 Hours shows a scene of Nick Nolte and Eddie Murphy chasing a fugitive in a San Francisco MUNI subway station. Lethal Weapon 3 has LA Blue Line scene. And Training Day has some footage of LA light rail (?line).
U.S. Marshalls showed a shootout at a cemetary in Queens NY, but the train passing in the near by track is a Chicago Metra Bi-level train.
Trading Places also has a couple of quick shots in the start of a Kawasaki car, I believe on Lancaster Ave on Route 10.
there was a movie about five years ago call "Closing Doors" about a lady who gets shut our of a London Underground car. The movie show what would have happened if she made the train compared to what would happen in her life in not making the train.
It was a "woman's type" movie.
I think the title was "Sliding Doors".
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the movie "Subway"!!!!
Yes, there IS such a movie, and before you all have heart attacks, it was NOT filmed anywhere in North America.
It is a thriller done in the Paris Metro. There are some scenes on one of the elevated lines as well as many of the subway stations. It's about some crime going on in the subway system. It IS subtitled, so no need to understand French to get the drift of the story.
Used to be at larger Blockbuster outlets.
The TV remake of Taking of Pelham Bay 1,2,3 a few years ago was shot using Toronto subway trains.
There was also a remake of "The Silent Partner" that has a couple of scenes of riding in the subway that were filmed in Toronto as well.
Last night I was flipping channels and saw a subway train roll across the screen so, obviously, I stopped and watched that show. The show was "Friday the 13th: The Series" or something to that effect. It was filmed in Toronto and they did a really cheezy job of trying to cover it up - literally with huge logos for a nonexistant city or black tape plastered on top of everything that said TTC.
The entire plot was tied into the subway but it was really bad. I came across it partway through but from what I could make out, the long and short of it was that some lady with a cursed pocket watch had to be in a specific subway station at 1 in the morning to 'freeze time' which gave her an hour to do whatever she wanted.
So, lots of subway shots including the heroes running through tunnels with the third rail live (could see a lit TTC issue 'string of five' connected to it in the background) which I'm surprised the TTC allowed. Use of the 'mute' button would have improved it.
-Robert King
On an episode of "the X-Files" the agents were chasing a monster or something in the Boston subway tunnels. However it was horribly done. The subway cars the used were LA cars and the begining of the show takes place at Clay street station, which doesnt exist. I think it is because Boston charges so much to film anything in the city.
Matt Damon rides a Quincy/Baintree train a couple of times in Good Will Hunting.
There was a movie made in 2000 called Jesus's Son that featured the SEPTA MArket-Frankford train in the role of the Chicago L. The exterior shots were of the new M-4 cars, but the interior shots were done in an old Almond Joy. Even though the scene was supposed to be in Chicago, the Philly route map was still very visible. :) The car was also made to look a lok trashier than I've ever seen a SEPTA or CTA car.
Mark
Hi,
happy new year transit people... I took a break from driving the g train in bve to ask a question... I am not in nyc so I might have missed something...
I understand long term, but until the mb opens up in 2004, why didnt they run the V to grand? 2nd ave already has v service..
Thanks,
Allen
Probably because there is no way to switch tracks near Grand Street. Thus, only one train could occupy the stretch from Broadway-Lafayette through Grand Street ar a time.
Would it be possible to run maybe every second or third (V) to Grand Street?
I suppose so, but why do it? You probably get more frequent service from the existing shuttle.
The shuttle runs every 12 minutes according to an earlier posting on this site. Even if you run every other V to Grand St., the new headway would be in excess of 12 minutes since the V does not run every 6 minutes. Let's leave the service as it is. We talked about this to death some time ago for the benefit of newbies. The single track from north of Bway Lafayette to Grand means you need pin-point-set your watch-on time performance. This is why it is a bad ideas to even send every second or third V there no matter what. You also have crew schedules to take into account. Some crews start/finish at Second Ave.
Ahh, I didn't realize the (V) isn't terribly frequent either. Oh well, it's only for a couple more years anyway, then they get the (B) and (D) back.
The single track from north of Bway Lafayette to Grand means you need pin-point-set your watch-on time performance.
There is a need for such performance on practically every line during rush hour. I haven't been able to set my watch by the train schedules for decades.
How did they handle this back in the late 80's when the S ran between 57 and Grand on 6th Ave?
The trains operated on the southbound track only from north of Broadway/Lafayette into Grand St. Trains ran on 12 minute headways all day long. I have visions of those god awful R27's seared into my brain.
I've yet to figure out why virtually all those R27/30's wound up with flat wheels over there, while it rarely happened to the same cars during their normal duties in the eastern division. We're talking about virtually every car on every train with flats. Unless some hot rod motorman kept on taking power with the brakes partially applied!
They were outcasts from the ENY yard, probably banished to that route so that they could spend their days working on those nice newly overhauled R30's and R42's.
It was the car of choice, to keep the homeless awake and regular passengers alert!
avid
No switch north of Grand St. This has been discussed ad nauseum ...
There is no cross over...
... although you could put a crossover before the station one side at a time, while running the shuttle to the other.
Can someone let me know what RR the remaining tracks on 47th Avenue in the warehouse and industrial area of Sunnyside belonged to? There is a remaining decorated flatcar on the tracks.
And, did they connect at all with the nearby Sunnyside Yards?
Joe Cunningham explained it all on a transit museum tour last March, but...I forgot.
www.forgotten-ny.com
kevin, it's part of an old LIRR industrial spur that ran off the lower montauk right where that line goes into the yard over the bridge on skillman av. it was known as the 'degnon sidings' There was, at one point, a dozen or 2 sidings in that area. I recall a boxcar being parked at near the location with the strangely painted old flat car & traction motors - the flatcar, rails, and otehr items there were only painted in recent years.
Apparently, at one time, there was an elevator in one of the buildings where boxcars were loaded onto the elevator, and sent up the building for unloading or loading. (!!!!)
Here's a link that's overloaded with info on the place (if it don't come out in the post, i'll email it to you...):
http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/mrr2.html#Murrer
oops - forgot to add that the boxcar i saw there was in the late70's, early 80's. somewhere between 79' and 82, i'd guess. service on the spur probably ended in the 80's.
"Apparently, at one time, there was an elevator in one of the buildings where boxcars were loaded onto the elevator, and sent up the building for unloading or loading. (!!!!) "
Kinda like that big Port Authority building at 111 8th. Ave.??
When I was a teenager, I worked as a messenger, and had to deliver an envelope to 111 8th Ave.---besides being a huge building, I was awestruck by the sight of big trucks pulling into humongous elevators, to be taken to massive indoor loading docks to be loaded and unloaded...incredible.
i'm assuming that's what it was like. i heard from someone, i can't recall who or where they were talking about, but they said such a place as you described was still in use today, and that the FED-Ex or UPS trucks would collect the mail on them elevators. i'm not sure if it's the same building you described, but hey, they might still be doing something along them lines somewhere around town...
787 7th Avenue has truck elevators on the 52nd Street side. It's a modern office building, I think they bring all kinds of deliveries to the building that way, avoids trucks double-parked on the street....
Thanks... Sam Berliner, who does a Long Island Motor Parkway page, is branching out into railroads now. Like the ever-expanding
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think the area might be a leftover from the days when different railroads coming out of Hunter's Point. If I remember my history All were absorbed by the LIRR. Some were abondoned. There was a RR that went thru Jackson Heights. 34 Avenue between Junction and the Grand Central Parkway was at first the site of the line's roadbed.
Kevin,
I beleive that was part of the spur that went to the old Chicklet building. The spur ran south to a point were it went under the Long Island Viaduct that crossed over part of newton creek. The rail spur connected to the montauk branch. It fed a number of sidings.
avid
The "NYCTA BVE Routes" site has just noted that it will no longer produce BVE routes. It's switching to MSTS only. As I haven't yet seen any MSTS subway routes I'm wondering if this is good or bad news. Read more here:
http://communities.msn.com/NYCTABVERoutes/newspage.msnw
Alan Glick
I wish there were some MSTS routes for the NYCTA.
I just finished running the SEPTA Newark, DE to Philadephia. What a blast!
where did you get the setpa route for msts?
msts is way more advanced and some nyc addons WOULD BE AWESOME...
There are PLENTY of add-on routes for MSTS out there. You might want to start by going to http://www.train-sim.com
They have plenty of add-on routes, activities, cars, locos, sounds, etc. It IS a tad tricky at first to add some stuff to MSTS, but once you've done it and gotten it working, you'll find it IS easy after all.
Thanks Steve...I registered but somehow their connections are to the max... BUT somehow if i spend 30 a year then i can get in!
any other sites you could recommend?
thanks :)
If you keep trying, you'll get in. I seem to get in early int he mornings (Friday/Saturday/Sunday on my days off) or even in mid-day.
Don't give up -- you'llget through. And sometimes you'll get through when you least expect it, like at 5 p.m. on a Monday night!
Downloaded it from the Train Sim website.
You have to go in and overwrite some files, but nothing major as long as you read the Readme file.
I'm off to drive another SEPTA train............
For those who cannot (or give up trying to...) get into the www.train-sim.com website File Library, Abacus Software came out with a "Roundhouse" add-on package that contains the extra NEC simulations. It also contains a really crappy Chicago CTA setup as well as additional locomotives (all foreign).
There IS a really good update file for the Northeast Corridor at the www.train-sim.com File Library (filename: NEC_v20.ZIP) that adds all the proper milepost locations (instead of every half-mile), adds the proper spacing of signals, proper speed limits, as well as all the commuter station platforms.
If y'all can't get into the www.train-sim.com site, lemme know and I can send you the file. I did save the ZIP-file after I unpackaged it. There are disclaimers in the package about the author not being responsible for anything it does to your computer -- but I have used it for over a week now and haven't had one ounce of problem with it.
Thats a nice route. I had trouble Unpacking the activities the first time but then redownloaded it and it worked like a charm
I wouldn't worry too much - there's MANY folks doing BVE routes with plenty yet in the pipeline. What was available over there was generally pretty lame and it wouldn't surprise me if they cowtowed to Microsoft who is none too happy about "competitive railfan games" and probably threatened those guys with potential loss of the site. I'm only guessing here, but I've done the "Microsoft hardball game" too many times to count so it wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft "encouraged" the decision.
It's a pity they're giving up on BVE, but I'm not surprised. They weren't all that great at what they had. With the REQUIREMENT of an MSN passport to get to their downloads, I'm sure they weren't doing all that much traffic either.
As surely as Yee, Marrero and others continue to put time into BVE, BVE NYCTA lines will continue to appear. MSTS has its cutenesses for scenery but does not compare to BVE for the "operating experience" ...
From the looks of those screen shots of the BVE #7 line, I'd say you can be a lot more creative with new routes. Those three screen shots look exactly as I remember the line when Iused to ride it frequently inmy youth! Compliments to whoever created them.
That was Ernie Alstom's (hope I spelled it right) handiwork and yes, it truly is a work of art, especially when he did the completion to bring the train all the way into Main Street. It really IS as good as it looks all the way out and has the nice feature of all station announcements as well. Highly recommended KEEPER ...
Agreed.
There's only one problem with it though. Look at the schedule ;)
Actually that and shooting the tunnel out of Manhattan - leader's obviously dragging a few cars along the wood. But apparently it all falls off the el around Court Sq. and it's clear sailing from there. :)
Where else can you find NYC Routes for BVE. I have downloaded 2 the 7 and the R. I can't get the R to work.
Are there anymore NYC routes online??
G Train route and Franklin Shuttle. G is very nice too bad only to Court House Sq. but the Shuttle is something else. A MUST
Where can you find the (2) route?
I really want it!!!!!
I think he meant he found two (2) routes. The 7 and the R.
Yeah 2 routes.
Im looking to find more
does anyone have a website?
Also when you download the files how do you get the ones that require winzip to work?
The ones that self extract work fine.(the 7 train)
download the evaluation version of Winzip at www.winzip.com
YESSSSSSSSSSS Thank Jah!
Does anyone know if it is possible to have MSTS support third rail? or something like that, so routes/systems like NYCT dont have any of that catenary crap ( i love catenary but not in NYCT)
Someone made a Chicago Transit Authority system layo9ut, and they dropped the catenary down to the tracks. It's in between the rails.
Oh, and where one line comes out of a tunnel, meeting a line that's already on the surface, you have rails and ties hanging in mid-air.
Not such a good rendition. And to this Abacus Software actually released this layout in one of their "Roundhouse" MSTS add-on packs!!!!
are those Abacus packs any good? I was thinking of purchasing
To be honest, I was disappointed.
Every single item on the CD that Abacus markets is available for download from http://www.train-sim.com except that there are some documents added to better explain things.
The problem with http://www.train-sim.com and their File Library is that it is very busy and limited nodes available -- as they would prefer you pay a $30.00 per year "Premier Membership" which allows unlimited, no-waiting entry. (They also have this at their sister site, flight-sim.com)
I have not had too much trouble getting in to their File Libraries. I just try at various times of day....usually I have a two-hour break from work between 0945-1145, and have gotten in then. I've even gotten in when they say it's "peakusage periods" so mybest suggestion is to just keep trying.
yea I know. I have been a member of www.flightsim.com their main site since 1996 or 1997 I dont remember but that long. i've been a flightsimmer for a long time, I remember the times when one could get on any damn time. Those were the days. I still use my 5 year old account to access train-sim.com. I guess i wont waste my money then. So not worth to download the Chicago system. Thank a lot
and is that chicago layout worth downloading?
Nope. Genuine POS.
There's a couple places where a two-track subway comes out in the middle of two elevated tracks -- the elevated tracks are suspended in mid-air for half a mile!
The catenary was dropped to the tracks to simulate third rail. Only problem is, it's BETWEEN the rails, over switch frogs, etc.
The subway sections are horrid. Some "stations" just show up in the Track Monitor" with no platforms, no lighting, nothing. The better stations actually show up as a concrete catwalk, not like a subway station as the ones on the various BVE screenshot pages look like.
There are various simulations set up -- for eachof the routes -- and some of them have many miles of "0" miles per hour restrictions. In other words, move through those areas, you are "written up" in the end-of-simulation evaluation for exceeding the 0 MPH speed limit. I ran the train at 110 kph down the whole Brown Line with no stopping, and exceeded that 0 MPH speed limit for 10 solid minutes. Imagine what it would be if you did prototypical speeds and made the station stops.
No scenery except in downtown Chicago.
lol, damnnnn, Try running backwards on the 0mph restrictions, you'd be going in negatives.
Heh. Gotta love it ... put 25kV on the ground. :)
Heheheh, that'll keep too many winos from urinating on the third rail like that one did at CTA a few years ago.....
Been done in NYC as well ... I am amused though that MSTS is so limited that you can't lose the cat wires ... with BVE, you have to go to extra effort to put them *IN* ... heh.
Yes, you CAN get rid of the catenary wires in MSTS. I think it was the CTA system author's intention to drop them to the rails to create "third rail".
When opening the route editor, (not sure of the specific way I found it...) there is a box to check for "Electrified Track". If the box IS checked, then it brings up a box wherein you set the catenary height. The CTA system height is set at 0.5 meters!!
Whoops! Have to admit, dunno MSTS ... had way too many problems with it, nuked it and spent it on MS Orifice instead. Glad to know you can lose it though ...
I think BVE is the better train sim. I've heard from others that MSTS is crap compared to it.
What LITTLE of it I managed to get working before I got tired of it sheeting the bed and "You *FAILED* to shut down Windows properly the last time I crashed, now you're going to be PUNISHED with a disk scan" just wasn't worth the lack of thrill to NEC operations ... Sorry, I've done the "cab thing" for a living and REAL trains have "physics" ... BVE is the closest I've come to having my TWU handles again ...
MSTS is neat with the "if I were Darwin bait" out of the car experiences, but REAL train operators know that a train has "feel" ... MSTS does NOT ... take it for what my comments are worth tho' ...
YES IT IS possible!! The route editor gives you 3 options of "electrified track"--Catenary, THIRD RAIL, and none (not in that specific order...I tried making up a line from the LIRR using the 3rd Rail option...suffice it to say I mapped the tiles wrong :(
(BTW, if anyone IS working on any of the NY Area systems, PLEASE tell me...I'm dying to try one or two of 'em...I hate just driving the NEC at midnight-11am *lol*)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Since Pataki and the upstate Republicans plan on cutting subway service prior to the election, and then stick a fare increase to the city after the election, I have a nasty idea for getting even. It probably requires NYC to redeem the subways from their bondage to the MTA.
I would make entry into the GC (Lex, 7, shuttle) and Penn Station stations (7th and 8th Av) a premium fare zone -- say double or triple the usual fare.
This would affect commuters from LI, NJ, Westchester etc. I can already hear these always-looking-for-a-government-handout Republicans complaining.
Just the (serious) threat of such a thing happening would probably shake some money loose.
Do it. Watch the economy of the city crumble.
Didn't Pataki repeal the commuter tax a while ago?
Where did you see plans on cutting subway service? I have a place where he can cut service and effect hardly anyone: send the M back to Chambers St. middays and go back to the old PM rush Bay Pkwy schedule and cut off the last 2 hours of service. Nobody will miss it becasue nobody rides! And I can get my old job back!
I would make entry into the GC (Lex, 7, shuttle) and Penn Station stations (7th and 8th Av) a premium fare zone -- say double or triple the usual fare.
This would affect commuters from LI, NJ, Westchester etc. I can already hear these always-looking-for-a-government-handout Republicans complaining.
Just the (serious) threat of such a thing happening would probably shake some money loose.
Actually, it will shake a lot of the city's biggest private employers loose, with a new exodus of jobs to the suburbs. Manhattan will be chock full of "see-through" skyscrapers. And, needless to say, transit ridership will go straight down the donicker.
Go right ahead. My employer has been cutting back, big time, and has a number of nice buildings in New Jersey that they'd love to lease or sublease. Make it that much more expensive for the suits to get into the City and voilá! my employer's cash flow problem will be solved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The 'working poor' travel into my neighborhood to provide services and leave at the end of the day. Some have inflated union salaries...many work for what they can get. TA cannot place a new burden on the backs of people 'not making it.' I'm watching NJT...dreams of opening up the Lakawanna Cut to Scranton Pa.....residents of Blairstown NJ are fighting a railroad station. With all the talk on this board about lines of the subways, not one person has ever mentioned the fact that there is no subway that goes directly from Bronx to Queens. The subway is THE way to go to work for most New Yorkers...shame it's so damn slow in the early hours. CI Peter
My point is that the City needs to play hardball with the suburbs, at least insofar as transit is concerned. It would take a mayor of considerable testicular fortitude to do it, but serious plans to shut down services for suburban commuters, and a willingness to actually do it, would go a long way towards shaking the pocketbooks of Republican suburban commuters and their elected Republican representatives.
To say the least, the Donald-types would be having fits, leaning all over Albany and Washington.
The blunt truth of the matter is that for all the nice office space Jersey has, it cannot equal the quantity Manhattan has, and never will.
New York needs to flex its muscles.
New York City is no shrinking violet.
The very title of your thread goes along way to explain why NYC is so beloved in much of the country.
NYC currently has the sympathy of a lot of the country who are being more than generous to a city that they haven't much liked, and vice versa. New Yorkers should take to heart Macbeth's comment to his wife:
"I have bought
Golden opinions from all sorts of people,
Which would be worn now in their newest gloss,
Not cast aside so soon."
Lasy Macbeth had other ideas. Remmber how it turned out. ;-)
Actually, making it more expensive to live and work in NYC than in the suburubs, or in North Carolina for that matter, has been federal and state policy for some time. With a little help from Osama, they just might kill the golden goose this time.
I'm going to risk an outrage here, but I'd like to offer a perspective that might not have occurred before and does appear to have some historical validity. I throw this out SOLELY in the interest of soliciting opinions and allowing people a new concept to bite into for a change. My comments and thoughts will be full of inconsistencies, inaccuracies and conjecture. Folks who know me here know that there ain't a racist bone in my body, so PLEASE don't take it in that direction. Transit is only a small piece, but I'll fit it in here as well.
If you LIVE in New York City, you're screwed. It isn't a government plot, it's New York City's WHOLE PURPOSE! Much like parents and their children, if you got along famously, let's face it, the kids would NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE! There is a purpose to it after all. :)
New York City has ALWAYS been America's "melting pot" ... a CONVENIENCE for newcomers from other lands. You have neighborhoods throughout the city and its boroughs that have always been GHETTOS (of Italian origin I think) where people(s) of similar culture and mindsets tend to accumlate. We've seen it since the Dutch, and all that have come since. People of a similar culture tend to move to locations throughout the city where they can feel comfortable, be among people of their own language and culture. New York has always accomodated this, even if the "newbies" tend to land in the worst neighborhoods owing to their own economic realities and what they can find that they can feel comfortable living in for the price.
I've noticed that in my own growing up, neighborhoods that had once been Italian tended to be replaced by blacks, whereas neighborhoods that were once predominantly Irish became Hispanic over time, where Polish predominated, along came Greeks and on and on as each new wave of immigrants comes to the US and tries to form roots, caught between their original culture and "turning American" ...
This process usually doesn't occur to the first, and in some cases, the SECOND generation of the various immigrants to the city. These tend to cling to the "birthing chair" and live their entire lives in the City. By the third generation though, if not sooner, New York City becomes too much of an impediment and eventually, immigrant populations disperse to other places in America once they are capable of "fitting in" ... when this occurs, another wave of immigrants comes and settles in on their own individual family journeys. At least this is what I've observed, be it right or wrong.
New York seems to have historically been a place where you DON'T need a car (a luxury to immigrants), possesses one of the FINEST transportation systems (literally a City which was designed to be *USED* rather than contributed to) and provides plentiful opportunities to make a living and enough of a population where, if you don't get it right the first time, can "going out of business" until you DO get it right. Literally, NYC is a newborn ward, and the concept is once you get your chops together, GET OUT! There's other people waiting for that hovel you're living in and they'll LIKE it.
I've gone as far with this as I have time for as I'm insanely busy and don't want to put a whole lot of time into a concept if it's going to end up deleted after descending into a possible pit, but thought the observation might drum up some thought and a new understanding as to the purpose of New York City. If you're ready to take your sidewalk act anywhere, maybe many of us have outgrown New York City and we don't realize the purpose. Am I wrong? (not that THAT would be news - heh)
I agree with the broad outlines of your post. Only recently (after umpty years of study) have I really appreciated the extent to which New York is a "temporary" city.
The subject is so complex that I don't want to say too much or risk a post 10x longer than yours. But there are two points I want to make.
One is that dispersion of population has been a goal of city planners going back over a century. Dispersion of population is the raison d'etre. for the mode of transportation we all enjoy and gab about on this board. It wasn't merely the goal of the Federal government and the highway builders, it was the goal of the Transit Commission, of the Dual Contracts, of the BMT and IRT.
The second is that the City spends too much of its efforts trying to squeeze people outside of the City (who have their own lives and problems) and too little building up its own excellences and making the City more attractive to live in.
Consider two other nearby cities that tried to better the City by means other than internal improvement. Philadelphia's wage tax (suburbanites pay the same rate as city dwellers) made it that much CHEAPER and more attractive for businesses outside the City to hire people and grow. And that's what happened. Philaldelphia was so poor by the time Street became mayor that they were replacing traffic ights with stop signs at many intersections to save money.
And then there's Washington D.C., where my brother lives. When Barry was Mayor he thought that a way to improve the City was to pay City employees much more money, thereby creating a new black middle class for D.C. Instead he created a new black middle class in Prince Georges County, Maryland.
This is America, not Soviet Russia in the era of internal passports. You can't force people to be governed by an administration hostile to their interests. They will vote with their feet.
The two mayors who improved the City the most since WWII (Koch and Giuliani) are the two who spent the most time on reforming the City and making it more attractive and the least time on trying to demand outside "help."
If you LIVE in New York City, you're screwed. It isn't a government plot, it's New York City's WHOLE PURPOSE!
Quite true, if you're a renter. Things are a lot better for homeowners, however, as property taxes in the city are a huge bargain compared to the suburbs.
New York City has ALWAYS been America's "melting pot" ... a CONVENIENCE for newcomers from other lands. You have neighborhoods throughout the city and its boroughs that have always been GHETTOS (of Italian origin I think) where people(s) of similar culture and mindsets tend to accumlate.
"Ghetto" was first used centuries ago as a name for the Jewish quarter of Venice. I'm not sure what it means in Italian.
This process usually doesn't occur to the first, and in some cases, the SECOND generation of the various immigrants to the city. These tend to cling to the "birthing chair" and live their entire lives in the City. By the third generation though, if not sooner, New York City becomes too much of an impediment and eventually, immigrant populations disperse to other places in America once they are capable of "fitting in" ... when this occurs, another wave of immigrants comes and settles in on their own individual family journeys. At least this is what I've observed, be it right or wrong.
You are correct that New York has a "transient" population in comparison to most other places. This can have less-than-favorable consequences - to give one example, people on the Upper East Side may be lackadasical when it comes to demanding construction of the Second Avenue line because most of them know they'll be gone from the city before the line's ever completed. New York would be better off if it didn't have such a transient population. Whether that's anything that can be changed is another matter.
New York seems to have historically been a place where you DON'T need a car (a luxury to immigrants), possesses one of the FINEST transportation systems (literally a City which was designed to be *USED* rather than contributed to)
It's not just immigrants who might find it a real advantage not to need a car.
"Ghetto" was first used centuries ago as a name for the Jewish quarter of Venice. I'm not sure what it means in Italian.
Il ghetto means the foundry. The Ghetto in Venice was behind a factory.
(If you LIVE in New York City, you're screwed. It isn't a government plot, it's New York City's WHOLE PURPOSE!
Quite true, if you're a renter. Things are a lot better for homeowners, however, as property taxes in the city are a huge
bargain compared to the suburbs.)
Ah, but don't forget the local income tax. Factor that in, and NYC homeowners pay about the same as suburbanites with similar incomes. Those in co-ops and condos pay even more. And those who are self employed have a second local personal income tax to pay, the unincorporated business tax.
Plus, those in the rest of the state get public education for their children, but most of those in NYC do not. Add $7,000 to my burden for parochial school.
You can see the result in the numbers. NYC has an above average share of the state's young adults and elderly, but the share goes down once children reach age 5, and again as they reach middle school age. Parents follow their state taxes out of town, and the federal taxes out of state.
If you LIVE in New York City, you're screwed. It isn't a government plot, it's New York City's WHOLE PURPOSE! Much like parents and their children, if you got along famously, let's face it, the kids would NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE! There is a purpose to it after all. :)
Maybe that's the way it was in olden times. Many generations of the same family would live under the same roof. Daughters were given away to live with another household. As soon as society made it practical to live apart, people would immediately do so. No matter how good one's parents are, few want to be dominated by another if they can help it. How is it that the vast City of New York is less dominant than a small suburban village?
New York City has ALWAYS been America's "melting pot" ... a CONVENIENCE for newcomers from other lands. You have neighborhoods throughout the city and its boroughs that have always been GHETTOS (of Italian origin I think) where people(s) of similar culture and mindsets tend to accumlate.
That is a remarkably small-minded view. By your logic, the city consists of nothing but the poor inner city. That all of those people who live on the Upper East Side are poor immigrants. By far the worst of your assumptions is that living comfortably requires living far from the city. The last time people moved from cities in droves, Latin died as a common language. I consider moving to the suburbs to be the same as moving to a medieval manor, it is the vacuum of civilization, it lacks the cultural foundations upon which civilization is rooted.
This process usually doesn't occur to the first, and in some cases, the SECOND generation of the various immigrants to the city.
Well, I guess I'm doomed to living in a ghetto like my immigrant parents. It's a good thing it's a nice place where both immigrants and natural-born citizens can confuse their house prices for phone numbers.
New York seems to have historically been a place where you DON'T need a car (a luxury to immigrants), possesses one of the FINEST transportation systems (literally a City which was designed to be *USED* rather than contributed to)
Hmmm, so I guess that if a fine transit system is a product of a city which is built for use as opposed to contribution, then a contributive city would be charactarized by the constant use of space-wasting, 2000 pound pollution generators.
I've gone as far with this as I have time for as I'm insanely busy
If I believed in God, I'd thank him (or her) for that. I don't mean that to offend you or any of the other ideas you put forth, just this one.
Didn't intend to stereotype, or claim that people who live in the city are poor ... and CERTAINLY ain't painting "suburbs" as a panacea ... am I describing old times gone by? Very likely. My POINT though was that a good portion of people that live ELSEWHERE can trace their origins back to the city, a place that made it POSSIBLE for immigrants to come in, learn to be "an American" and move on ... New York City made this possible. Could you imagine someone who spoke no English, had no knowledge of how the "game" works here moving into Keokuk and having a fair shot at it?
I think you may have read in FAR more than I ever intended into those words. My point is that America should be GRATEFUL that New York City provided the "training wheels" that built the rest of this nation. The vast majority of people who came to New York City eventually moved on. That's all ...
I don't doubt that New York is an excellent training ground for America, however what I implied (correct me if I am wrong), that New York is only for training, and it is improper to ride around on two wheels in NY.
Absolutely not my own point at all ... seriously, thanks for asking. My whole point is that New York is one of the FEW places where immigrants had a chance to actually shift gears and work into a brand new society - that New York, owing to its incredible diversity and constantly moving configurations, ALLOWS newcomers a place to get their "training wheels" ...
Of COURSE there's folks who live in NYC for dozens of generations, who love it, call it home and couldn't possibly live anywhere else. Those attractions are also what make it possible for New York City to be a launching pad for others. It's ALWAYS been among the most "international" of cities with dozens of languages spoken. Nothing new to this which is why I couldn't believe John Rocker's complaints when he came to visit a couple of years ago.
But if you're looking for a racist angle, I can assure you there's none. But New York WAS and IS intended as merely a stepping stone for most people that land here from other places and that's all I meant.
LOCK ON LOAD SelkirkTMO!!!!!!!! American Pig does not understand that improvements in life means 'Diaspora from NYC.' CI Peter
American Pig does not understand that improvements in life means 'Diaspora from NYC.'
Well, certainly if all of those people who are brain-damaged enough to prefer suburban life to urban life did move out, there would be more space left in NYC for the sane population.
So you are right!
Heh. Let's also not forget that there's more than urban and SUBurban life - most of "America" is actually RURAL, and that's even more removed of a life from those who live in the BIG or LITTLE city. :)
I know about rural areas, my beef is with the suburbs, the rurals do not bother me, they are necessary and not evil.
I *knew* we'd agree ... nothing like yanking on a warm teat at 5am when Bossie REALLY wants you to ... like I said, if you and I can get past the age gap, we really DO agree ... country living REALLY imposes what's IMPORTANT in life - being around other people you can TRUST and also know they can TRUST YOU ... I'm sorry, but there's no more VALUABLE commodity in life that people you can TRUST ... especially in these times ...
THAT is why I love upstate ... "suburbs" are merely a pretense, and false one at that ... unless a whole lot of mindsets of the past die fast. Up where *I* live, we have to trust our *LIVES* to our neighbors ... 'nuff said ...
prefer suburban life
Because of population growth and general changes in the world, much of New York City was more like some of the older surburbs than you realize--I mean the suburbs built around a downtown area.
The Babylon Village of 2002 is more like the Flatbush of the 1950s that I grew up in than the Flatbush of 2002 is like Flatbush in the 1950s.
I blame part of that on City administrations that don't give a damn for neighborhoods or local services.
There's no outrage it. It'sd your opinion; you're entitled to it.
I've always liked the city. I find NYC to be the ultimate chameleon. If I want to behurried and stressed, the city will be hurried and stressed around me. If I want to be lazy and laid back, the city will be lazy and laid back and peaceful around me.
I can row in a lake, play golf, see a show, go to work, lose myself in the woods, eat every kind of food imaginable, read in the world's most magnificient library and do it all without a car.
New York doesn't squeeze the burbs. It never has, and it doesn't have to. The suburbs squeeze themselves. They lack vision and leadership, and overtax their citizenrry, and give poor services in return.
Maybe you feel screwed. I never did.
Just for a quick clarification, never did the 'burbs ... can't imagine how I could manage living in neat little cookie cutter houses on little sheets of land. I went from living in the Bronx straight out to log cabin country. I prefer the latter myself. :)
The suburbs help bring you into a routine. Some say that is dull but to me it is relaxing. You get used to it. In my case I can always take a trip to the Big City, thoroughly enjoy myself with the knowledge that I can taste the sights and smells of New York and then go back to my routine. I call it variety. If y ou live in the city all your life you cannot imagine this, but those of use to have migrated from big city to the suburbs know this very well. Nothing against living in the city, it is just what they call different strokes for different folks. As an example, my buddy Brighton Beach Bob still considers himself a died-in-the-wool New Yorker even though he left there just four years after I did. In other words, one person's perfume could be another person's poison, or vise versa.
I could NEVER do the suburbs ... I had family in various suburban settings - the parents had their cocktail haunts, the kids were bored out of their minds ... "velveetaland" is how many summed up the experience. At least out in the sticks where I am, there's no "keeping up with the Joneses" and you don't have the ubiquitous two foot by four foot lawn that people complain about having to mow. :)
I basically went completely the other way - moving from 6 story walkups to moocows. I'm happy ...
Sounds like you're happy. Here is my take on it, though. I think a one way lifestyle, whether it's out in the country like you, the suburbs like me, or the city like Italian Guy in SI or someone like that, it could get real boring. A think a vacation change of pace is just what the doctor ordered. You get variety, then can return to your roots. We suburbanites don;t all keep up with the Joneses. Those people are 14 karat phonies. Hell, I still drive my '86 Toyota.
My car is a 1985 palomino ... only thing that gets through in this weather. Heh. If it gums up, we've got glue. But yeah, every treadwheel needs a break - for us it was Kissmoose in Noo Yawk terrorizing TA employees all over the system. Everyone had fun, especially Nancy who FINALLY got a genuine TA brake handle in her hot little hands and got to turn it a few times. :)
Amen to that
>> My employer has been cutting back, big time, and has a number of nice buildings in New Jersey that they'd love to lease or sublease. <<
Yes. Jersey City, for example, is making a comeback and would be thrilled to see NY shoot itself in the foot.
Why don't all you 'whine-o-crats' just stop to see what happens before predicting the worst?
If one's objective is to encourage, rather than discourage the use of public transportation, then one should seek to make all of an areas transportation systems work as a unified whole, rather than a bunch of separate parts.
While Chicago isn't exactly a shining example of such unity, at least they do offer "link up" passes as an add on to Metra monthly tickets to allow suburban rail commuters who transfer to CTA busses and L trains a discount. This makes much more sense than charging them a premium fare because they come in from out of town.
-- Ed Sachs
How does this PATCO door controller work? Its ajacent to the side door and looks to be used for both that door and the adjacent door.
At 125th Street on the Lex, a R-142 pulls into the Northbound express track. Announces it is a 5. Displays 5. I get on. I get into a heated argument with some idiot who insists it's a 5. We get to 149 GCC on the lower level. The train reverts back to 2 mode, signs and announcements change. I stick my tongue out at the idiot. Also, Northbound 4 trains turned at 138th Street in the middle on the 6 line. Very interesting.
Needs a fixin....R142s will be #5s really soon. CI Peter
There is no reason for the 7 to not get 142's also.
It's bad enough my redbirds will drown, but we can't even get GOOD (just my opinion) trains to replace them.
Be patient.....U #7 guys will be gifted with the 'cream of the Redbirds' very soon. They run everyday, even with a few cars flashing yellow motor failure lights. You don't want my new trainsets yet. CI Peter
Hey......as long as the new trains are red.......I'm happy.....but they won't be.
Why don't they sell some parts? I want some R33 parts (sob sob)
Well, someone posted the contract to dispose of 150 cars in the Atlantic. I would suggest you check out the size of your backyard BUT the cars were stripped down to empty carbody. Would make great homes for the 'homeless' or diners if you replace the missing windows and doors. CI Peter
>>There is no reason for the 7 to not get 142's also.<<
The R-142 or 142As are not going to the #7 line.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I know that....hence my post.
Used to be I rode the subways for simple transportation. NOW Car Inspector Peter rides and goes nutz: 'I know that noise, I could fix that door, that bulb is missing, this seat is loose' and so on. My friend, below your feet will be the sound of power that you may never had heard before. The only thing louder than the undercar 'miscarriage' will be the voices of other passengers in languages you don't comprehend or understand. Redbirds rock the Lex express run.....at 37 mph. CI Peter
Nobody has OFFICIALLY said the R-142 and/or R-142A cars will not be going to the #7 line. Nobody has OFFICIALLY said that they WILL. Nobody has OFFICIALLY said ANYTHING on the subject. Until somebody does, there is no point in asking about it or stating "facts."
David
That may have been the train I was on yesterday.
While riding a #6 Lex local northbound, just as we where south of 14th St, I saw what was an R-142 on the express track. At 14th St I boarded this standing room only train. It was a #2 set of R-142s running on the Lex.
Got off at Grand Central, waited for a couple of #4s to pass. Then a set of R-142s with DIAMOND #5 enters. It was a set of cars assigned to the #2. Took that to 149th & Grand Concourse so I can take a #2 southbound to Penn Station. This was after 5:00 PM.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey. If any of you guys won the lottery, would you buy a complete redbird? I'd buy two so they could run, and build a small track in my backyard! :)
I wish i had room for a complete redbird. Maybe i would chop it in half,and chop off the bottom portion so that I would only have half of the body,then I would put it in my living room.lol
Problem is coming up with the phenomenal amount of power needed just to make em move. Have you considered surplus Russian/Ukrainian battery powered cars? No third rail! CI Peter
Wrong gauge :-)
Arti
Right gauge IF you built your own track around your house from scratch. Now you guys have me really thinking about this....neat to have some little motorised work platforms buzzing through the woods. I could build a 'Rambo Special' with armor plate and heavy hardware. Problem is getting the rails delivered....they're a lot heavier than Lionel. CI Peter
The neighbors wouldn't be too happy....the sheer weight may cause your backyard to sink.
You and some friends could buy one, I know a place you could store it. They would even teach you how to operate it.
Mr rt__:^)
EVERYBODY SING!
"If I had a million gallons, I'd BUY YOU A HOSE" ... (TA song) ...
If Everybody says it together, then we can make the AFLAC duck say "ANTHRAX!" ... all it takes is a dollar and a dream, and we let you KEEP the dollar!" :)
Got that right ... just a dream, some elbow grease & a Million dollars.
Actually if you knock off a couple of zeros you would be closer to the cash required ... well that was BEFORE everybody started saying the "A" word.
Mr rt__:^)
Heh. PT Barnum. director of Looto ... but yeah, back in the days of the Holy Ronan Empire, that was the "song of the R9" ... "If we had a million dollars, we'd buy you a hose" ...
I'd restore the Mineola.
A small track in your backyard? I'd buy the West Side IRT southbound express track between 96 and Chambers, running the Redbird on its home turf. I'd consider leasing it back to the TA, but my train gets priority.
funny enough I was on it at about 5:30 ish.....about a 15 minute delay in the tunnel.
Sorry for the delay but Chatham Square is open tonight. Please point your browsers to www.subtalklive.com.
It was posted on subtalk recently that the reason that there is no interconnection between the LIRR and the subways is because of certain FRA regulations. PATH somehow meets those regulations, so it can interconnect with NJT and Amtrak on the Northeast Corridor.
I saw a PATH car at the TRY TRANSIT Festival in Hoboken this past September, right before Osama bin Lousy and his crew did their thing. How do those tiny cars used by PATH meet the FRA guidelines, but the MTA subway cars do not? Next to the other passenger cars, the PATH car looked like a toy. Anybody out there care to explain? I sure cannot see how, but maybe I am missing something.
PATH cars run regular revenue FRA trackage...NYC subways do not. I would like uniformity and standards....my R142s could run LIRR if they had a few mods.....TD is the 'answer man' for this one. CI Peter
The old H&M ran with the PRR from JSQ to NWK-Penn Station. PRR had several K cars for the joint operation. Each MU meets ICC/FRA requirements such as buffer strength, corner steps on eack car, blue card inspection, front window defogger, etc. (the R-44 in SI means these requirement too!)
Somewhere at one time, the H&M ran on the very same track as the PRR and had several switches to connect to PRR mainline.
Actually the H&M shared a ROW with PRR from the Portal (where it came out of the tunnel) through JSQ, west to Newark. It reach Newark in 1911 and began using Penn Station Newark in 1935.
The H&M ran on PRR tracks, no ifs ands or buts. The cars were dispatched by PRR interlocking towers and PRR dispatchers. They ran with both PRR passenger and freight trains. Today all the connections except one ot two have been removed.
I think you have it backwards. It is not the FRA regulations that keep the subway and the LIRR separate; it has been the TA's decision to keep the subway separate in order to avoid the additional expense of compliance with FRA regulations. PATH's current status as part of the national railroad system, subject to FRA regulations, shows that a subway-type operation need not be kept separate. On the other hand, I suspect that PATH would also be kept separate if it were being built today. Its current status probably results from its origins as the only rail connection between New York and New Jersey prior to the digging of the PRR tunnel. Before PATH's predecessor, the H&M, dug its tunnel, every railroad from the west to the NY City area ended in Hudson County, New Jersey.
Correct! So wouldn't the system be more uniform and safer if FRA regs ruled??? How much is one human life worth (excluding surfers???) CI Peter
IMO, the main issue for avoiding FRA regs isn't the mods. When the SIRT considered purchasing some surplus Triplexes, they received a study from a rail-knowledgeable professional engineer listing the changes needed to make them FRA-compliant. It wasn't that much.
I would bet the real issue is that each electric car with a cab is considered a "locomotive" requiring stringent periodic FRA inspections. The cost of the these inspections (plus the discomfort of external oversight) might be what the TA wants to avoid.
An additional possibility I'm not certain of is whether T/Os and C/Rs would have to pass FRA tests every three years. These tests are not a walk in the park--I know experienced personnel on the LIRR who spend quite a bit of time studying when their tests are coming up.
This could add enormously to the TA's training and personnel costs, and raise other labor issues. They also might have to pay employees more and hire more carefully.
Is it the cabs or the motors that make them locomotives or is it only if both are present in the same car?
Generally, all subway cars are motorised as they would be considered self-propelled. Irregardless, a system under FRA rules means trackage, signals and trainsets. Upgrading the subway would cost big bucks to bring out of 'museum status.' I'm all for it and a commensurate increase in fare. CI Peter
"Is it the cabs or the motors that make them locomotives or is it only if both are present in the same car?"
No. It is the motors. Railroads run many cabless "B" locomotives.
Look in the cab of any LIRR car, and you will see the Locomotive Inspection Report.
Elias
Like I said, subway cars have motors. CI Peter
Paul, all I can say is that my crew would be happy to learn and work. CI Peter
my crew would be happy to learn and work
I have no doubt, Peter. But I know the bureaucratic mindsight: "if they the guys know more, do more, they're gonna want more." And you think the TA, freed from the PSC and the Transit Commission the BMT and IRT had to deal with wants something Federal looking over their shoulders?
I know.....it's not the work, it's politics.
Bada-bing ... you've pretty much named all of the angles there and your FRED on the end of the train is in touch. Folks who work "real railroads" have a tremendous disdain for "rapid transit types" owing to the different requirements for an FRA cert and the nature of the work on "big trains" ... they ARE however impressed by rapid transit headways and how fast tracks can be put back in service after an "event" ... but yes, by what you raise, a transit authority would have to be INSANE to go the FRA route when there are alternatives that keep the costs lower ...
Forget costs.....spend the money.....or provide a fleet of 'cuchifrito limousino black cars.' The new tech fleet is being chewed up by rail beds one hundred years old. Pan clips and track geometry cars a subway does not make. LOL CI Peter
Unlimited funds can do unlimited things. Natch ... that's easy. Keeping a 100 year old museum rolling every day takes a lot of hard work by a lot of people. Don't sell yourself and your partners short. And I *know* you aren't. But the new tech fleet shoulda known what they was getting themelves into and should be designed to handle it.
Having seen the 143's plying one of the older BMT lines without groaning is inspiration enough for me that it can still fly ...
I get cross-eyed looks from the people in charge because I'm a newbie. Even the 'Maintainers B' guys in the wheel cutting department have difficulty understanding my explanations when someone called them out on tread brake shoe worn off-round. My prediction is that R142 trucks will be redesigned or replaced in five years. Kawasaki R142A/143 trucks do not have axles floating like Bombardier made. Just fixing axles to move only up-down would fix 95% of TBU problems of record. The biggest problem to be overcome will be the equipment made to give the public that smooth ride.......only trackage upgrade could make it work. Bombardier did not design a car for our trackage just like GM/Ford/Chrysler does not make a car for city streets. The Kawasaki trainsets win hands down with solid trucks. CI Peter
Perhaps we'll see a redo of the Rockwell truck fix ... Kawa gets an option order for enough of THEIR trucks for the fleet with mods, Bomba cuts a check. The geometry of the lines themselves doesn't really permit retrofit of rails, so it's gonna be the rolling stock. When it comes to a choice between a SMOOTH ride and having a ride at all, I'll opt for "yes, ride please" ... :)
One thing to consider is that PATH has engineers while the TA has Train Operators. PATH engineers belong to the BLE and as a rule are paid more. They are also federally licensed and meet more stringent requirements.
AND that is the way to go TD....T/Os carry more 'souls' than pilots. CI Peter
How much more safety are you buying with that money? The NYC subway system is, statistically, already a very very safe system to ride, thanks to Train Dude and his crews and to very consciencious train crews. Introducing FRA compliance may use up $$$ that could be better spent, even safety-wise, elsewhere. Rehab more stations, fix lighting, platforms, install elevators, maintain funding for police officers and police dogs to ride trains and patrol stations, pay for a new snow-blower car to deal with the next blizzard...
This is not totally unlike debates we have in medicine. Yes, we could spend $1 million more to buy a really exotic new antibiotic, and yes it would cure a few more infections, but our pot of money is finite, and that $1 million could also buy a lot more regular vaccines which could save many more lives...
Makers for interesting debate, certainly.
I meant, "Makes for interesting debate."
I'll stick with FRA compliance because it means more uniform equipment, more training, culling out the unqualified........cuz TA work is EXCELLENT work. CI Peter
I don't know. Some claim that subway-type equipment and the uses to which they are put are sufficiently different from long haul operations and their equipment that the rules should be different. An example that comes to mind is the requirement -- so I've been told -- that a train be inspected after each run. That makes a lot more sense if each trip is from Boston to Washington than if it is from Grand Central to Times Square. Is it a question of FRA or nothing? Are there any safety regs that apply to the TA beyond those it or the MTA choose to adopt?
Correct. The conclusion that the TA must have come to was that FRA compliance is not cost-effective for the subway. Too much $$$ for marginal return.
The world of railroads vs. the world of transit is sort of like the wild west vs. a city. FRA regs are designed to make things safe in this harsh environment. First of all, PATH mas many many waivers that exempt them from many FRA regularions. Full compliance would require things like grab irons, hi-intensity headlights, ditch lights, event recorders in every locomotive, every self propelled vehicle would have to meet locomotive inspection requirements, new cars would be required to meed new passenger car strength requirements (PATH is exempt) that are something like 800,000 pounds on a trailer and 1,000,000 pounds on a leading car. Subway track would have to meet FRA standards and much much more.
Let us not forget the many waivers that the PA had for twin towers. NYFD has no equipment capable of putting out a fire above 68 stories. CI Peter
"Let us not forget the many waivers that the PA had for twin towers. NYFD has no equipment capable of putting out a fire above 68 stories."
Correction: FDNY has no equipment to reach above the 6th floor (100' on old buildings or the 10th floor on newer buildins where they just squeezed more flors into that same 100')
Once a building gets bigger than that, it must have its own fire fighting equipment, in the form of standpipes, sprinklers, fire-water tamnks etc.
All NYC buildings require a Fire Safety Director, with an updated fireplan, evacuation routes and proceedures, and hopefully their own fire department right in the building. Most buildings in New York City can hold more people than live in our city, yet we have a fire department with several trucks etc etc. Anybody who wants to build a tall building needs to provide the same. He collects the rent, he provides the services.
(decending the soap box) Elias
There are special FDNY units equipped to handle high rise fires...tall buildings are required by law to provide 'fire pumps' and fire suppression systems. PA property is foreign soil: exempt from NYC building codes. I guess you are not old enough to remember 'superpumper' and 'supertanker.' Even 'rapidwater' is almost obsolete. The idea is to provide enough water at high altitudes....not a ladder. I once worked in one of the buildings that had three floors melt...the incident was responsible for 'Fire Department Contols' installed on elevators and elimination of the 'heat sensitive' floor request buttons. CI Peter
I toured the LIRR's Hillside Facilllity with the Transit Museum and the FRA issues came up. Train Dude, Jeff H feel free to chime in, but the maintenace frequency is stricter, tolerance for parts is stricter (ie if a braske shoe can be .50 for non-FRA it might be .65 for FRA) meaning parts must be replaced sooner.Also I believe FRA requires full train inspection prior to each run rather than once per day.
The FRA requires a simple daily inspection and a really annoying 62-day inspection. The unit must get a 62-day if it has been run or not in that time and this pisses off shortlines and private owners to no end. They are trying to get the rule changed to something like "operational days."
Interstate vs. intrastate. Different rules which are to the advantage to the TA.
I know this is SubTalk not BusTalk but I read the messages here more often.I dont know if any of the MA people here have seen the Paul Revere Transportation buses or not but they are the worst maintained, and most disgusting buses I have ever seen. Someone told me that they are rejects from New York. They spew out more smoke than some steam engines ive seen. They go by my house about 20 times a day and they are very loud. I will try to find a picture to show you what they look like.
RTS, MCI, 870, or what?
not sure i dont know much about buses.lol
I will have to take my own pictures since their website has picture of these nice big luxurious buses not the sh*tboxes that we have.lol
According to the Urban Transit Club roster, Crystal Transport up in the Boston area bought the following NYCTA RTS buses: 3966, 4167, 4191. There is no listing for Paul Revere, but that is not necessarily conclusive. RIPTA in Providence bought a dozen or more ex-NYCTA RTS buses.
Sid, you didn't read far enough :). Paul Revere has 25 ex-NYCT RTSes: ten 1982s, eleven 1984s, and four 1985s. They're not "rejects," they're just second-hand.
Guess what??? There are a lot of private buslines out there that get away with excessive diesel emissions for the very reason we're discussing the costs of a fare hike on the poor working schlubs. Some of those buslines have (forgive me David Pirmann) 'ethnic connections' that allow them to squeeze by. What I know from firsthand experience is that time and justice will catch up to them...like the bus on the way to Great Gorge that had no brakes. The NYC subway may be slow but it is safe...our trainsets do stop when commanded. CI Peter
PUH-LEASE, let's not start with a bus vs. train debate. Besides, as long you have 40+ year old cars running that are crumbling as I type, I won't consider your division very safe. But I digress......
I know this is SubTalk not BusTalk but I read the messages here more often.
Is that any reason to post a bus question here? I think not. Post it over there where interested people are likely to read it, instead of here where you get uninterested people annoyed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
if your not interested dont read it ok?
Is that any reason to post a bus question here? I think not.
Yes -- Lexcie doesnt have time to read Subtalk AND Bustalk, and Lexcie knows the answer to the question posed about Paul Revere buses.
I dont know if any of the MA people here have seen the Paul Revere Transportation buses or not but they are the worst maintained, and most disgusting buses I have ever seen. Someone told me that they are rejects from New York
Paul Revere is something else. I'm not 100% sure about the legislations involved but basically Paul Revere was created to dodge around two pieces of legislation: (a) The fact that bus routes in MA outside Boston has to be placed out to competitive tendering, and (b)MBTA aren't allowed to enlarge their diesel fleet anymore, because of MA environmental regulations. Sounds like it makes sense, but that's why MBTA hasn't had new buses in years and years. And that's also why there is such a service shortage. They found a way of getting around this -- by farming the out-of-town routes to Paul Revere, they can work the diesel buses by the back door. Way to go, MBTA. These stupid legislators should have thought about how to provide transit if they don't give MBTA $ to buy new low emission buses when they signed over the environmental legislation.
Lexie Im not sure but I believe Paul Revere is subsidised by the MBTA. Besides the X-GeneraManager James F. OLeary runs the copany and many retired and active MBTA Employees work for the company.
I am looking for as many pictures of the 30th Street station in Philadelphia.
I want pictures of the upper platform outside, the main concourse, the Amtrak platforms and everything.
If anyone can get me links or send me pictures (email me first and I'll get your an alternate address for you to send to), I would GREALTY appreciate it.
Thank you for your time.
Is Hpiladelphia located anywhere near Philadelphia? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Very funny.
I am QUITE hopped up on cold medicine. Please excuse my misspellings.
Alright, but someone had to change it to "Philadelphia"
Maybe someone can answer my question. :p
Has anybody seen the music video of "Romantic Traffic" by the "Spoons" or know where I could look to find a copy? I've had little success hunting it down and I'd like to see it as the whole thing was shot in the Toronto subway in the early 80s with lots of customary Gloucster shots - including a G2 leading a train into a station, so I'm told...
-Robert King
I have been away since New Years looking for a job(still unsucessful)and I have stumbled on something on NY1.com, it says there will be no more Cortland street(If I spelled it wrong than sorry). Has my eye's been playing tricks on me or has my suggestion on Subtalklive been answered. If my suggestion was answered than is it true the Q is getting some R46's and the 5 is getting some R142's. If not than 1 out of 3 isn't bad.
Cortlandt.
It will eventually come back. The current station will be demolished and the line will otherwise be restored. At a later date, a new station will be built roughly where the old one was.
If you've seen the photos here, I'm sure you'll agree that the current Cortlandt is basically unusable.
A few R-142's have shown up on the 5. This weekend in particular, the 2 is running up the East Side, and apparently some such trains are signed as 5's.
As for R-46's on the Q, highly unlikely. The Q (both shapes) is out of Coney Island; the R-46's are only in Jamaica. When the circle-Q was extended to Queens to fill in for the R, it ran a mixed fleet from both yards, generally with R-68's and R-32's, but there was at least one R-46 sighting on the Brighton line.
And here it is. Doesn't this train look lost?
The closest analogy would be seeing R-10s on the F again.
I think they are going to try to get the rest of the line open first. After the new WTC takes shape, whatever that may be, Cortlandt will be rebuilt into the new complex. But right now, even if the station wasn't damaged as bad as it is, there would be no way to open it. There is nothing to walk outside to. At least with the rest of the line open again, normalicy can be brought back to the 7th Ave line.
A friend of mine just forwarded me the following press release from AP:
The Associated Press - 1/4/02
NEW YORK -- The No. 1 and 9 subway lines damaged in the Sept. 11
attacks are expected to be fixed by December --
about two years ahead of schedule, the governor said.
"This important subway line carries 600,000 people a day to home or
work, and restoration is critical to getting downtown
Manhattan back on its feet," Gov. George Pataki said Thursday.
The train lines, which run from the Bronx to the southern tip of
Manhattan, were closed south of Chambers Street
because more than 1,200 feet of tunnel collapsed in two different areas.
The Metropolitan Transit Authority said it hopes to reopen the tunnel
and its Rector Street and South Ferry stations as
early as December. A third station damaged in the attacks, Cortland
Street, will be demolished.
The cost for the repairs, to be covered by insurance, was not yet
disclosed.
The agency previously said the reconstruction of the destroyed sections
of the subway lines would take at least until
2004.
Demolition.
Wow, they're just getting rid of Cortlandt St altogether?
Wouldn't that station be useful for whatever is built on the WTC site when it's built?
Apparently, the station will not be replaced until something is built above it.
David
They will reopen a station there eventually, when they need it again.
Me and my family are going to be visiting NYC again this summer.
In the past we stayed in Darien Connecticut at the Hojo about 4 blocks from the MNRR New Haven Line "Darien" station. This year we looked into hotels in NYC, because of all that's happened, but even with 4, $68.00 weekly train passes, the hotel in Darien is still cheaper then any in NYC. Darien is nice because the town is very safe and quiet. I personally like noisy and crowded like Chicago, but my family prefers quiet for sleeping. I do enjoy the train ride into Grand Central though. The New Haven Line has an excellent schedule. I think it is really awesome that there is an express train for every local train on the New Haven Line. (Express from Stamford). This makes the commute from Darien easy. If only Metra would take after this on their busiest line, the BNSF that I live along. More DG Main Street Express trains need to be added, besides weekday rush hours and one in and one out on Saturdays.
Anyway, if you could recommend anywhere in the city or burbs to stay (that is within walking distance of a train station for the burbs), it would be greatly appreciated. The ride in from Darien is just under 1 hour one way, and that is the longest travel time my family can handle. They don't notice the duration of the ride because the majority of it is express.
Thanks in advance.
BJ
PS: Is Stillwell Ave./Coney Island under reconstruction currently?? How much will be done by this summer?? The station was really crappy on my last visit in 2000. If it is in the same condition as before I will just get off at W. 8th Ave, that station leads directly to the board-walk anyway and is a lot less dingy looking.
What kind of quelity are you looking for?
Arti
I can't remember the name of the place but there is a really cheap hotel that caters to mostly Japanese students. They do have a website.
The Holiday Inn Express in Queens. its like $100-$125 a night, which is cheap for NYC. and its a 4 block walk to the 7 train 40th street station. its right along the LIE, right by the Qns-Midtown Tunnel. 38th street and Hunters Pt. Av, LIC Queens. by subway, its less than 10 minutes to manhattan.......you get a perfect view of the skyline from almost any side street.
When my family and I stayed in NYC in December, we stayed at the Best Western Manhattan on 32nd Street between Broadway and 5th Avenue for only $109.00 per night. I don't know if that was a special just for that weekend or what but I do know you had to reserve online to get that rate. It's a great hotel, I highly recommend it.
Thank you for the advice so far.
To answer your question, we are looking for anywhere that is clean, safe, and near a train or subway station. Moderatley priced is good also. So far Darien is still the cheapest, $69.00 a night for two queens beds. The hotel also has a swimming pool, outdoors, and a restaurant. There is only one other place in the town that is open past lunch-time, but it does have pretty good food I must admit.
That Holiday Inn Express in Queens and the Hotels in Manhattan recommended don't sound bad, I will into them.
Thank you for your assistance and anymore you can offer.
BJ
Check out the major travel websites . Many hotels are offering great deals. I stayed at the Hudson hotel for $75 a night in December. The place was top notch
The Stillwell rehab is only just starting. The N has been evicted, and within the coming years the F and Q will be evicted as well.
I've stayed at the Larchmont at 27 W. 11th St. in the village during my last several visits to the city. It's a decent area by NYU, and the IND W. 4th St. station is a few blocks down 6th Ave. One point: it's a bed-and-breakfast hotel with shared bathrooms on each floor. IIRC it's under $100/night for a larger room and $70 for a small single room.
Thats not far from the rowhouse that the Weathermen destroyed back in 1970. Look for the red rowhouse that juts out at a weird angle that totally doesnt fit in with the rest of the row.....thats the place. i think its on that block, too. www.forgotten-ny.com has info on it
I use the website www.180096hotel.com Click on New York and enter the following info: # adults, children, # nights, etc. Click "sort on price" and the hotels will come up in ascending order.
I'm coming in next weekend for the holiday. I'm paying 243.66 (including tax) for 3 nights at Manhattan Broadway, 38th and 7th.
Michael
. . . since when has the Seventh Avenue 3 line been a 10-car line? That, and some 1 trains being non-OPTO R-62’s, thus enabling passengers to look out the front (or back) windows. I know that the latter would have to do with the events of last Sept. 11, but the former . . . ?
It is all Sept. 11 related. Since the 3 is operating a shorter route and the 1 is now longer, the 1 is using 3 line cars so they can maintain the frequencies. The VC, Lenox, and Linovia fleets have essentially been pooled into one big fleet for the two lines.
It's actually something that was going to happen eventually anyway. It was just moved up because of September 11's events.
David
I know but it wasn't possible before then. The original plan was to do it when the R142 option order came.
Not really. It would have been a matter of a few more weeks until #3 trains went to 10 cars.
David
How many cars was the 3 normally?
The 3 was 9 cars long prior to 9/11 which brings me to my question. Why when the 3 was doing 2 bouroughs all the cars only had 9 cars but now when it only has 12 stops it get's 10 cars?
I already explained that, go back a bit in this thread. FWI: It is 11 stops, not 12.
Does this mean all R62A's will be linked into 5 car sets now? I know a lot of the #3;s R62's are singles to maintain the 9 car trains. If so, how will they operate them on the Flushing line? I'd assume enough R62's will remain singles for this purpose and to operate the GS shuttle.
Hadn't the 3 been bumped up to ten cars shortly before 9/11? I seem to recall that the change was made in August.
I don't believe so. It had been anticipated for the fall, but got moved up a few weeks in the wake of the World Trade Center's destruction.
David
I stand corrected.
Just SMILE and ENJOY it!!!!!!
> That, and some 1 trains being non-OPTO R-62's
When did the #1 Line run OPTO?
- Lyle Goldman
Never, but until 9/11, all 1 trains ran OPTO-compatible trainsets -- that is, they had transverse cabs in front and back. Now that the 1 and 3 have merged fleets, some 1's don't have transverse cabs (much to my delight).
THere is a sign on every pole ,token booth ,Turnstile and actual Conductors telling people that ther is no Bronx bound 2 trains.So people at Houston st Christopher st. have the nerve to complain NO ONE TOLD THEM they were waitng a whole 10 minutes.POOR BABIES 10 minutes THEIR LUCKY!!Then the fun begins 66 ,79 ,86 st WHY CANT THE 5 GO Local We have to wait for the 1. BEFORE SEPTEMBER 11 WHAT ELSE DID YOU WAIT FOR .GET A GRIP Dont yell at the Conductors Blame yourself You got spoiled living in an area where service is at a premium So when some trackwork which we all have to deal with increases your headways WALK or TAKE A DAMM CAB ,You Pay enough Rent so I am SURE you can AFFORD A CAB.
I think you need to switch to decaf.
Heh. There's a lot of folks (myself included) whose emotions have gone over the edge lately. Been a rough holiday season for a lot of folks, especially with the awful autumn. Hopefully we'll all be friends again quickly and not spend so much of our own time being cheesed ...
And no, no group hugs. :)
Heh, i think this person oughta ramp up to MORE caffeine, if not illegal substances. tht'd be a hoot. hehe!
Just like on the East Side we tell them the No.4 train is not running between 125 Street and 149 GC take the No.2 train to connect and they still wait there and scream again after they stand there let the No.2 pass and a No.4 comes in yelling last stop. They then complain that we are not making announcments when they where played loud and clear by Train Crews and Train Dispatchers.
We're you around during the invert project, which was basically this GO quadrupled?
They then complain that we are not making announcments when they where played loud and clear by Train Crews and Train Dispatchers.
With respect, don't know about that particular station ... but you know as well as I do that "loud and clear" announcements are usually static-filled incomprehensible noise.
And when there is no static and the announcer talks perfect English with no accent, they still don't listen.
The PA system at 86 on the 1/2 is totally useless -- it produces nothing but loud static. (Well, a few days ago I managed to make out two words, "downtown local," but was I being told that one was on its way or was I being told that service had been interrupted?) If it can't be fixed, could it at least be unplugged? The noise really is quite unpleasant.
That reminds me of a GO where only one service was servicing Canal St. The conductor started yelling over the PA that this would be the ONLY trian coming to Canal, yet there were still people waiting on the platforms. There was this other time at Dekalb Avenue when N and Rs were being diverted over the bridge. I was in the first car, and the T/O actually opened his window to talk to some guy on the platform standing around asking where he needed to go.
You should have seen all the passengers (or would-be passengers) at the CPW local stations last weekend passing up D after D, waiting for that elusive C (which kept passing by on the express track).
That's never a good strategy on CPW, even when no GO is in effect. If a train stops for you, get on. At 59, make corrective transfers, if necessary.
Canal is tricky, since the local and express platforms are in entirely different places, and the signs sometimes lie. The last time I was there, Q trains were stopping on the NB express platform directly in front of signs claiming they weren't.
Agreed.
I couldn't have said it better, Union Sq.
"You Pay enough Rent so I am SURE you can AFFORD A CAB."
Great biased opinion, I live on the Upper West Side, and due to some program in the mid 80's, my parents applied for a rent something because they were getting charged way too high. Now, it's below 1,000 for a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom per month. So next time you want to say something insulting, use your brain, and think about who you just might offend.
AMEN Clayton! 800 bucks a month for a one bed/bath rent controlled apartment on the East Side. Rent goes up 7% a year now. My income didn't. So my new TA income is welcome...happy with any increase given to me. Chase us all out and who would maintain the infrastructure: illegal immigrants who cannot communicate? CI Peter
Not to mention that many apartments on the Upper West Side, for better or for worse, are covered by rent control.
To those who are under the impression that everyone on the UWS is rich, I invite you to come to the neighborhood and take a look around. (Don't miss Amsterdam Avenue.) In fact, it is a very diverse neighborhood.
Nobody reads anymore. You can post notices and signs about service changes for 2 months in advance (the manhattan bridge comes to mind), and they'd still complain about lack of warning.
I actually try to read every poster, which is probably why I've never been on TV complaining about being too confused to get to Grand St. I'm not even Chinese, so I'd have a right to get lost.
I have to commend the C/R on the uptown 1 I took earlier today. He made it extremely clear exactly how to get to the Bronx. And he was even audible too.
To Union Square and the rest of the new conductors on this board (and everywhere else for that matter):
You are going to find out soon enough that people EVERYWHERE don't read. Or listen. You can't let it get to you. Yeah, I know it can be a pain in the ass, but unfortunately, it goes with the territory. You say something once, you say it 100 times, you still get people that don't get it. Ignorance? Quite possibly. But you can't let it get to you.
That works for me. Most people don't read, bottom line. I had a customer complaining they didn't know there was no 2 service on the West Side Yesterday, because there were no signs at one of the stations. They wanted me to call that booth.
Now what in the hell do I have to do with that booth? Supervision should be on hand to ensure that there is sufficient signage available in the stations.
There will be a Second GO coming up next weekend. Here we go again....
-Stef
Next time, tell the customer that you tried to call the booth, but the busy signals prevailed because the phone repairmen couldn't get there as there was no number two service. Your supervisors are on the way but their 2 train went up the East side. The homing pigeons sent to deliver the flyers that say there is no number two service had to stop to take a number two. There has to be a way to get them to understand they are #1 for being second best.
GOOD ONE!!!
I'll remember that. Say Hi to Dolly.
-Stef
Yes, a similar GO next weekend. I had all R142s going up the east side. The people at the local Lex stations were looking confused as they thought a 6 was running xpress.
For some reason though, when there were GOs between West End and Sea Beach, there weren't any complaints as to service changes. Signs were also posted all over the place.
I don't understand the complaints. The 3 was running local in both directions, so there was more southbound local service than usual. I'm not sure why the 3 ran local instead of the 5, but to anyone bound for points between 42 and 135, it made no difference -- except for the thrill of Redbirds on the express track, where they belong. I had initially feared that both the 3 and 5 would have run express, which would have caused problems -- remember that scheduled 1 service now isn't quite as frequent as it was before 9/11, and the crowding was already a problem then -- but, somewhat to my surprise, the GO planners took this into account and ran the 3 local.
For the most part, last weekend's GO's seemed to cause minimal confusion. The exceptions were at 149-GC (where the SB 4 platform had only a few handwritten signs about the GO) and at the CPW local stations (where station announcements repeatedly informed waiting passengers of the C's express run but neglected to include any information about the D local).
Well get ready for part deux this weekend. The only notices I have seen on this upcoming GO were on the 1 trains I used. There are some by the token booth area of some stations as well.
There is something quite odd about a complaint about people who "dont read" coming from someone who:
omits the apostrophe in "don't"
uses "their" in place of "they're"
puts spaces before commas in lists
doesn't use commas at all in any other situation
capitalizes "turnstile", "conductor", "pay", "rent", and "local"
does not capitalize the abbreviation "St."
does not use a period after that abbreviation
writes many entire words using all capitals
does not use a question mark after an interrogative sentence
leaves no space between the end of one sentence and the beginning of the next
I mean, typos are one thing; everyone makes them. (Indeed, there is likely to be at least one in this post.) But writing which is that atrocious is not the result of typos. Evidently, there is someone around here who doesn't read!
Anyway, that said, it is a good point about some idiot commuters who refuse to read signs and then complain that they weren't informed.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Union Square" is the same person who was ranting and raving a few weeks back about the Grand Street Shuttle causing him/her to be late for SCHOOL! Late? I don't think that person ever showed up to begin with!
That wasn't him, it was someone else who I wont say. I think the thread is still slightly alive.
Sorry, my mistake!
its not just them. People have a tendency to love their confort zones. They just think service is supposed to stay a certain way no matter what. this is why u see their faces change to a unhappy face when things change. I have heard of Es headed to jamaica center turning into Cs and going uptown instead. Then yesterday after union turnpike, Sutphin was our next stop on the E. imagine the faces of those wanting to get off at Jamaica Van Wyck. Not only that what i mean by comfort zones is most people have no idea what a R32 and R46 is. However they see a series of R32s stopping at Roosevelt avenue jackson heights lets say, they automatically assume that it is a E. and they see R46s on the express they think its a F unless it says E on the front like some do. Get this i remember once a woman getting on a R32 F and she asked does this go to canal? i told her this is not a E its a F. she was like it looks like a E. I told her u cannot judge a train by its equipment. If TA had to they could bring any kind of equip on the E. I remember peoples faces when i rode the D type for the museum trip and people thought it was a A in hoyt schermerhorn street. But we bypassed! lol
None of this applies to the West Side IRT, where, especially after 9/11, the only way to determine which trains are local and which are express is to memorize the track layout and listen to announcements (except on the R-142's).
I had a interesting trip Saturday Night into Sunday Morning. There was some kind of problem with the No.2 service there had no trains. So my R62 relay comes into 125 Street. We where told to take the No.4 in service to 149 Street Grand Concouse. We get to 149 GC and was informed to take it in service to E 241 Street. Now we get to E 241 Street and now since there was no No.2 train there we where then ordered to run as A No.2 train to Flatbush. Yes a No.4 train as a No.2 Train to Flatbush. So now we go downtown Times Sq and Nevins seemed clueless why there is a No.4 train on the No.1,2 Line. We get to Nevins after telling everyone This is a No.2 to Flatbush they tell us we are now back on the No.4 Line and we will go to New Lots. So now I change my Announcement "Ladies and gentleman this is no longer a No.2 train this is now a No.4 to New Lots". Then we get to Utica they made that our last stop.
Does anyone remember the last time a No.4 train was in service on the White Plains Line or on the 7AVE-Broadway Line?
Through Brooklyn though, it's all familiar trackage to the 4. That's hilarious at Nevins and Utica. How many people went to your window and started complaining? Was there a 2 right behind you when they told you to go back as a 4 to New Lots?
The No.2 was no where near me. The thing was its a toug of war between the No.2+4 Lines. The No.2 has a gap in service but uses a No.4 crew and No.4 train to fill it instead of there own. Now on the other hand the No.4 has one less train for there line and one less T/O and C/R.
Was it a redbird or an R62? Also, were you signed as a 4 or a 2?
It was an R 62 and signed up as No.4 top: 125 Lex Bottom: Utica.
So your real run was supposed to end at 125th, so they extended it to the 2 line. Pretty neat.
What fun that must have been.
I always wondered if C/Rs carried maps with them. Such in this case with a reroute onto a different line, did the C/R know all the stops? Especially in the Bronx where the stations are by names?
The Conductor did a Wonderful job in making currect announcements along the White Plains, Lenox, and Broadway Lines.
I've never seen a 4 train on the 2 line in passenger service. But I have seen 4 trains deadhead on the 2 line on several occasions.
It was very weird! The reason my No.4 was sent to the Bronx was becuase of a delay over 40 Minutes with the Uptown No.2 service. Then also I was only suppose to go to 149 GC discharge deadhead along the 7AVE Line and go in service at Nevins Street. However the Mott tower changed my destination to E 241 Street. The E 241 T/D telling us to run our No.4 Train in service as a No.2 Local train was a trip. When I pulled into 96 Street I started to remember why I got away from the west side.
In away I liked it because it was like a Low V fantrip I didn't know where I would end up at and I did get a tour of the IRT.
Hey PBD, check your email. You wont be surprised at what caused your unusual trip.
An R-142 Broke Down? Oh nooooo.............
-Stef
Uh-oohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
For those who might be interested, Saturday's Jersey Journal (Jersey City, NJ) has an ad from PATH in the Career Opportunities Section.
Openings listed are for Conductors, Extra Engineer/Switching(Yard M/M),Tower Operators and Train Dispatcher/Terminal Supervisors. The ad states that 2 years prior railroad experience is "highly desirable".
If interested, Email your resume to rpsmalls@panynj.gov or fax a scannable resume to 201-714-9731.
Thank you for posting that.
One of the things on the table is to realign services like the FD, not reducing head count but moving manpower from the nights to the days.
If the 143's work out and they real don't replace exisitng equipemnt (or at least not 1-1) there actually might be a bit more TPH. Even if the 143's do replace exisiting equipment more daytime people used correctly could reduce service interuptions.
IF TPH is not increased, how would you use the extra bodies to help service? Extra switchmen at places like 59th, QP, City Hall, Myrtle and Essex to turn trains fast in case of problems? Fewer penalty and workhorse jobs to combat fatigue and hopefully speed up the system?
Can extra people efficiently fight service delays?
Isn't MTA state budget?
Arti
It is but you argue it isn't.
I think that move was so that when the fare goes up or there is a strike the current mayor is not impaled. NYCT salaries are inline with NYC employee salaries, LIRR salaries are in line with LI.
The MTA falls under "authorities" much like the Thruway Authority, Bridge and Tunnel Authority and others. While state agencies in a sort of way, they also have a degree of independence and their own governing boards, different financing and different control. They're more independent than a state agency, yet like all else, answerable to politicians who if not pleased, will screw with them.
In the case of the MTA, the board reflects state interests as well as local interests, plus a few pander bears thrown in to assure deadlock on most any issue. :)
Welcome back,
I just wanted to repost the poll so everyone can have a chance to vote. As a reminder, polling will close at 1:00 PM on Thursday, January 10th, and I will repost a simple message daily (to improve visibility). Click here To see the details within the original post. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
I thought I would post this strange experience on here so that people may read it.
Now, as some of you may know, I used to work for British Rail and thus have had some safety training for trackside walking. I've seen more videos and heard more stories of people getting hit by trains than most, and have a fairly good sense of the dangers of being around trains.
Last night, my girlfriend and I were out walking late at night -- we left my house at Somerville MA heading northwards and we were in Bedford MA by around 11.30pm. Heading northwards along Boston Ave., this road runs directly parallel to the MBTA Lowell Mainline. We got to Mystic River and decided to head back. When we were walking back home (southwards) along the HIGHWAY -- not along the track as some people may have been tempted to do -- when suddenly I was caught by surprise from behind as a deadheading train swept through. I knew it was deadheading because there weren't anybody on board and I also knew that there weren't any service trains at that time.
I guess I just thought I would share this experience because it is quite unusual for me -- not to notice a train until it was practically right next to me -- I'm used to American trains as being noisy with their diesel motors and hooting their horns every 2 minutes at grade crossings. This one was running at an estimated 60mph with no bells, no horns (presumably because Bedford has an ordiance banning the use of horns beyond a certain hour), and no EMD noise (because it was running cab-car-first and wind was blowing in such a way as not to carry the noise). In yesterday's visibility, it would have been quite easy for anybody walking on track without high-vis vests to get killed.
This reminds me of the time when my ex-girlfriend and I went walking on a dirt road by the old B&O in Ohio -- we stayed off the track itself, but she was pretty tempted to go walking on there. The old B&O through Northern Ohio is a 79mph mainline alignment! No train came that time, and it's so easy to let that kind of experience mislead people into thinking it's safe. It's not, and you only need to walk along a highway parallel to a track to find out for yourself. Of course, 99% of the time no train will come, but the 1% of the time is when you are either surprised (if you were walking along the highway) or killed (if you were stupid enough to walk on the track).
Moral of the story: Don't walk along railroad tracks, unless there's a public highway right by the track. You won't hear the train coming.
Lexcie, you were in MEDFORD, not BEDFORD. Bedford is about 30 miles from where you were :-) I ride the Lowell Line to/from work every day, and not only are there lots of deadheads (no trains are stored in Lowell overnight), but there's a lot of freight traffic, plus now four Downeaster R/Ts each day. It's a busy line!
As "silent" as these trains are, they're much quieter on the South Side, where the 1700/700 series Kawasaki bilevels run. They have
airbag suspension, and are whisper quiet in comparison to the other car types on the MBTA Commuter Rail.
One other point... MEDFORD (not Bedford, where there has been no commuter rail service for 30+ years :-) has a "no whistle" ordinance 24 hours/day. Bells are rung at the crossings, however... and during rush hours, there is a "crossing guard" at the main street crossing. Also, when there are two opposing direction trains, one must protect the crossing until the other goes by. The engineers coordinate by radio to decide who will protect whom.
I thought that those ordinances got thrown out in Fedral court.
Nope. HOME RULE. Local municipalities still have the right. I believe there's a proposed and/or adopted Federal regulation that will change this in the future, but for now, what Medford wants, Medford gets. There are a number of other Massachusetts communities that have a no blow ordinance too.
A ridiculous practice (not the railroad's fault). Perhaps the railroad wants to be a "good neighbor" and observes the ordinance when it doesn't have to. Maybe this is a case where the feds should politely tell the town to "get over it" and instruct the railroad to begin horn use again.
And install four-quadrant gates to try to deal with any village idiots who would try to kill themselves on a regular basis.
Oh sh*t, not this issue again. Umm, Feds rule. If Medford wants a no blow, they can declare independence...
Ah, Darwinism at its finest....
please include railinfo if you like. or anythign about the town
Lexie if the train was headed toward Boston they would be running cab car foward so you would not here the engine till it pqasses. Stevie
Yep ... and THERE'S the rub ... they can get nice and loud when coming upon a CROSSING or in stretches where trespassers are expected. A crew gets a milepost sheet that tells them where to blow. Anywhere else, SURPRISE! That's why I'm constantly lecturing on the subject. Today's rail equipment is MUCH quieter than the days of yore, with "Whispercabs," composite shoes and no dragging chains ...
The diesel trains aren't that noisy either....especially nowadays that there are push-pull trains. The locomotives are quieter. And nowadays, they put the damned horns on the back end of the loco, so you don't hear them if you are on the right-of-way -- but you can sure hear them five miles either side of the tracks!! (LIRR!!)
Stupid asses out here in California at Metrolink did a real winner about eight years ago -- folks were complaining about the loud diesel horns, so they put TROLLEY CAR WHISTLES (!!!) on all their F59 locos and cab cars. And guess where they mounted them??? Behind the pilot ("cowcatcher" for those of you who still think they are "choo-choo" trains....) You couldn't hear those damned whistles more than a hundred feet away!!
I had to do some in-cab video-taping of all of Metrolink's routes at the time (1993-1994) and you can see a couple instances where trespassers were walking down the tracks, the engineer was sounding the toy train whistle furiously, and the trespassers acted like they didn't even hear them!!!
Well, the engineers got together with their union officials, and now there are air horns once again on Metrolink's equipment. Not the big K5LA's that the stuff came with (most are still on the rooftops), but they have a variety of Nathan and Leslie two-chimes, but they're still mounted under the pilots. Only cab car 631 has its K5LA working, and I suspect some engineer figured out how to reconnect it as it's always on the same train on the line past my residence.
You should hear the SEPTA regional rail trains. At market east, all you can hear is the quiet hissing of the brakes. or else you wouldnt even know a train was coming in. the norristown 100 is even quieter. you really gotta pay attention if you wanna catch the train.
Where can I find out both the seating and official crush-load standee capacity of each configuration of NYCT and PATH car now in operation ?
The information you want is available on the "National Transportation Database" website. However, it is available only in raw data "dbf" format. N.B. they do not give crush-load standing capacity only service level standing capacity. Tho following is this information in comma delimited form, 2008 is the id for NYCT, 2098 is the id for PANYNJ.
"org","type","seats","standees"
"2008",,,
"2008","R110A",28,162
"2008","R110B",46,203
"2008","R26",40,70
"2008","R28",40,70
"2008","R29",40,70
"2008","R32",44,101
"2008","R33",40,70
"2008","R36",40,70
"2008","R38",44,101
"2008","R40",44,101
"2008","R42",44,101
"2008","R44",72,103
"2008","R46",72,103
"2008","R62",40,70
"2008","R62A",40,70
"2008","R68",72,103
"2008","R68A",72,103
"2098",,,
"2098","PA1A",31,98
"2098","PA1C",32,97
"2098","PA2A",31,98
"2098","PA2C",32,97
"2098","PA3",31,98
"2098","PA4",31,98
Thank you Stephen.
For those of you who collect maps, there are at least a dozen of the TA's one-sheet map dated 10/28 at the Transit Museum and Store at Grand Central. They're in the racks built into the wall to the right of the entrance door as you walk in. Grab 'em before someone recognizes they're obsolete!
I've now added one to my heap'o'maps.
if i could induce someone to pick up one for me i would appreciate it. airfare from atlanta is a bit high to do so. i'll gladly reimburse you for your trouble.
thanks
john rofrano
Any chance of someone posting one to the UK?
How, when and where do train operators and conductors on the NYC Subway and LIRR go to the bathroom?
I know this may sound like a strange question, but I am considering applying for one of these jobs and would like to know the conditions.
Lavatory closets in the middle cars. (just kidding)
While en route to the Museum of Natural History on that AA train in May of 1967, my father wondered out loud if the motorman's cab in the second or third cars was a john (not that he needed to go). I replied I didn't think so. True story.
Ask any conductor - that one tends to rise to the top level of "ask the conductor" subway FAQs ...
On that particular four-stop ride, I was too busy looking out the window and listening to the bull and pinion gears.
Heh ... four stops wasn't sufficient to solve the FAQ ... and the SADDEST part of being a suited monkey back in those days was that THERE WASN'T A POTTY ... ANYWHERE ... and they didn't have DEPENDS either. :)
Can you say PLASTIC BOTTLE
So basically it's a pillar at the end of a station like everyone else.
PLEASE don't be offended that I picked this one to give it another go ... literally ...
RULE number one in the cab of a "locomotive" is that puddles that can run into the breaker cabinet is a *BAD* idea ... ANYWHERE but the cab is a "good idea" in railroading, no matter what kind of cab you grab some WABCO in ... bottom line is ANYWHERE ELSE ... whatever the necessary contrivances. You do NOT wet your pants in the cab. Period. It's all a question of individual creativity and stones, as well as how WELL you can maintain pipe pressure. I was lucky ... I was 19 and 20 at the time I did my thing with the MTA meatball ... had I been older, I would have been a bit more concerned.
But anyway you slice this question, you're NOT going to get a straight answer out of anyone who's done it. The realities are not quite so kind. I'll leave it there.
So I figure they just need to keep a widemouth Snapple bottle handy.....
Since this was intended as a serious question and I've already had my fun, let's just say it's an opportunity to "demonstrate quality bladder control" or "demonstrate creativity above and beyond the call" is presented. The system manages one way or another every day. And it really isn't such a serious issue for most actually, that's why i had some fun with it as did a few others. May not be a good job though for the "are we there yet?" crowd.
Thanks SelkirkTMO. It was meant to be a serious question, but I am glad that it wasnt taken too seriously and enjoyed the humor.
I am considering applying for a job within the MTA, if I move back to NYC, where I grew up.
I visited last week for the first time in 8 years. I have always loved riding the Subway. I didnt get to ride the new "V" train or the rerouted "F", but it was on my list of things to do.
Yeah, when I saw you weren't getting a serious answer, figured SOMEBODY had to do it. Heh. "Bottom line" is most folks have no problems and you DO get a "potty break" if you need it, but you ARE expected to not require a pit stop at every "holding light." If there are medical issues, chances are you'll never get past Nurse Ratchet at the TA informary at intake time.
And yeah, I had some fun too ... ya gotta ... I love Subtalk very much, but it ain't "on the job" it's R&R and sometimes ya gotta have some fun here or we'll make you do a layup. :)
Can you say 'R142 windshield washer resevoir?'
If it melts snow and ice ... oh never mind. :)
Seriously, you learn to control your plumbing.
I know on Amtrak, I've heard engineers get on the radio and announce to the conductor "I gotta go drain the main reservoir" at station stops. No kidding!! So the conductor knows what's going on....
Yeah, but on a loco, there ARE facilities down in the nose. May need a clothespin to go down there, but it's there. on NYCTA, it's either do the raindance or ... get back into life with DEPENDS. :)
ROFL!!!
The absolute WORST on-locomotive crappers I ever encountered were the ones on Union Pacific's EMD DDA-4X's. You did your business, thenpressed what you thought was a "Flush" button. It wasn't a flusher...but an INCINERATOR!!! It cooked whatever you donated!!!
And PHEW!!! did the loco's nose STINK forever after that.....
No wonder you see locomotive engineers doing their business over the handrails....
Or better yet, Norfolk Southern has them crap in a plastic bag. Too many of those loaded bags got tossed overboard, so they started putting serial numbers on them and the crews had to sign out numbered bags.
Heh. Yeah, we had one of those flamecrappers up at one of the transmitter sites for a TV station I used to work at. Best part was one day when the General Manager came up with some guests and we set the thing off. Heh. Nothing more amusing than watching suits scatter in panic when it went VAVOOM! :)
You just can't resist posts like this, can you Selkirk? LOL
Never could, never will. Nothing charges the old brake pipe like a good cheap shot. :)
Don't know ANYBODY who worked the rails that couldn't do the raindance without benefit of musical accompaniment. And of course the occasional tourista who wanted to know why the bathrooms on each end of the car were locked just like the ones on the platform. Heh.
"Don't know ANYBODY who worked the rails that couldn't do the raindance without benefit of musical accompaniment. "
In the past there was an appliance called a "bus drivers friend"
It was an external catheter (like a condom, but with plumbing) that had to be pasted on to the... ah... er.... well anyway, I don't see them in stores anymore.
Elias
I heard alot of B/O's pee in the rear stepwell. No wonder why it always smells like urine back there.
Thats OK for no.1 but what about.....? Aw, forget it!!!
I remember when I drove a NYC cab in the 70's, it was a Friday afternoon in lower Manh. with heavy rush hour traffic and I had to pee very badly. I was looking for a parking space to go when a guy jumped in and said, Kennedy Airport!!! Talk about a predicament!!!
Actually, what about token clerks. At least a motorman or conductor can use a bottle in the privacy of the cabs, but a token clerk will have more trouble, especially the women.
Sadly, I must admit that I never ever put any thought into the guardians of the turnstile ... I genuinely and sincerely bow my head in shame for not having thought of it (NOT kidding) ... dunno. If you're ALONE in the box as many are, I would HAVE to guess that you'd have to close down and encourage the wrath of CON, or fend for yourself until "relief" arrives ... which likely would take FOREVER.
For those few who enjoy "Statistical analysis" ... one thing that amused me a few years ago after listening to Jay Leno OBSESSING about "Depends" and a few other chuckles from train crews here laughing about the same thing, it *IS* amusing that "incontinet users" are a certain number of folks, but makers of "Depends" have more than four TIMES as much in sales, either there's a sexual fetish that we're missing, or there's a LOT of EMPLOYEES in various businesses spending money on this chit just to DO THEIR JOB ...
Now I've seen enough internet porn to understand that there's some kinkers out there - but let's face it - if you can't find a toity, ya GOTTA do it SOMEWHERE ... only question is where, and franly, as much as I enjoy being amused by something new, I'd REALLY rather not know.
I'm sure everyone else will agree ...
Subway stations, if I recall correctly, esp. terminals, have employee-only bathrooms. Presumably you would be issued a key...
I think the crux of the question was what happens if you just gotta go and you are not near the terminal.
Dang! Somebody forgot to open the drain plug in the compressor tank. Or you can blame it on a handy seeing eye dog. (dunno WHY I keep falling for these things)
Actually, the bottom line for asking this question is can a person with a "small bladder" handle the job?
Depends on how small and how much you drink. Most trips on the Subway average between 60 and 90 minutes.
I know the C/R is supposed to point at the board. Do the rules specify precisely what he must point?
He sticks his hand out of the window and points to the board.
Look people is a bird, no its a plane, nooooooo its a conductor spotting board!
In all seriousness, the crew facilities at each terminal have bathrooms. Whether you know it or not, every station also has a bathroom. If the ultimate emergency comes about (I'll admit - it's happened to me and just about everyone I work with at one time or another), you get to the next station, if you can call Control via the radio you let them know you'll be taking an 'emergency comfort relief', and then pray the token clerk has the key to the can and the can works. Luckily 90% of the station bathrooms use one of 3 keys, which most TA employees possess.
I take it, you aint gotten a serious answer.
You were expecting one?
I was thinking of goin down to Clearwater Spring Training in March and priced out Amtrak, not out of fear of flying,but figuring I'd try something different and have an "adventure". However, for some reason, they are using reverse airline logic in their pricing:
AMTRAK: Auto Train--- Lorton,VA to Sanford, FL $570.50 round trip
perfectly reasonable considering they're towing your car
1000 miles.
Regular Reserved Coach---Wilmington, DE to Tampa, FL
Direct without having to change trains at all (excluding
layovers at points for engine changes and such) 24 hours
Round trip fare--$217.
Wilmington to Orlando and then bus to Tampa
Round Trip Fare--hold onto your lunch now----$366.00!!!!
(ARE YOU KIDDING ME????)
Forget Tampa altogether. Wilmington to Orlando straight
through (cutting off approximately 100 miles) costs
$270--round trip...still $60 more than if I go to Tampa.
AIRLINES Philly to Tampa $155 round trip with a connection in
Charlotte, NC....$178 non-stop.
now normal logic says it the the shortest, most direct means of making a trip usually is the most expensive. At least the airlines seem to see it this way, but apparently making the trip in 12 times the amount of time with layovers and connections actually costs more????? Go figure!!!
Must be staying over a Saturday nite, or the airlines will screw you.
well i was flying out on a saturday and returning the following saturday. i adjusted the return to be that following monday and it was actually MORE.
If you are a AAA member you get 10% off. Furthermore, Amtrak sometimes has special rail sales of 2 for 1 discounts. Amtrak also delivers a superrior ride with lots of leg room and no risk of terrorist attack.
There is a reason for this. Amtrak fares are (AFAIK) currently managed on a per-train basis rather than on an O/D basis. This makes sense, because each of the trains are different (in terms of facilities) and it is also generally expected that they will serve different O/D markets.
Let's take an example. PHL-CLE you can travel on two routes, via #43 (Pennsylvanian) or #29 (Capitol). You might think the only difference is in the timing. I can practically guarentee that the fares on those two journeys would be different, and if you priced WAS-CLE via PHL (and hence #43) or direct (via #29) you will get different prices. Also, the sales they have fuck this up even more ($11.70 to go PHL-CLE on #43 at this time). Part of the reason is because they don't expect people to use creative routings such as WAS-PHL-CLE or PHL-WAS-CLE, the other reason is because the Capitol is a much nicer train (Superliner vs Amfleet equipment), but also another reason is because Pennsylvania is practically sponsored by NS through Triple Crown whilst the Capitol is sponsored by the Congress.
The Florida case is likely that way because Orlando is a much hotter destination than Tampa, thus anyone going through Orlando is going to pay a high fare. You have to remember Amtrak don't have strict NX control, so you can buy a ticket to Tampa and just hop off at Orlando. For that reason they discourage creative routing.
On top of those Amtrak fares, consider the time it takes, and then add in the price of the en route meals you're going tohave to buy!!!
What is the current fare if you take a bedroom for the trip?
Ron, the answer is at http://tickets.amtrak.com/ Please visit the website, the new reservation system is easy, easy, EASY to use. Thank you for calling Amtrak.
Are the trains on the Staten Island Railway the same size as the BMT/IND or the LIRR?
They are modified R-44s, similar to the R-44s on NYC Transit's A and S (Rockaway Shuttle) lines. Like those on NYC's system, the cars are 75 feet long.
David
They are R44's. The same size as 75' foot cars on the BMT/IND.
Would NYC subway cars be able to run a the Staten Island Railway tracks?
They can, and they have. When the Staten Island R-44s went out for overhaul, a few R-46s were sent over from the NYC subway as a
"float." The end signs were set for JFK Express.
David
<<<"a few R-46s were sent over from the NYC subway">>>
I remember this, except with side signs indicating "179th/Jamaica".
BTW, I thought these cars stayed on Staten Island.....
R-36: I believe that three R-46's were sent over to Staten Island in addition to the 12 R-44's. These cars helped protect the service while the SIR MUE-2's were sent out for overhaul. The R-44's became permanent residents but the R-46's returned to the mainline.
Larry, RedbirdR33
OK, didn't know that...thanks.
LIRR cars have as well. In the early 1970s, while waiting for the R-44s, the LIRR sent over a few 81' MP-72s (remember those piece-of-crap engine hauled coaches before the Bilevels?). Only back then those cars were MUs.
While the cars are actually R-44's, inother words, YES, they are the same size as BMT/IND....they CAN use LIRR size cars as well.
In the 1980's, they actually did use some LIRR MP72 cars which are full length/width railroad passenger cars.
Those LIRR MP72s ran on the SI Railway in 1972 and 1973 when there was a severe car shortage. Many of the old B&O cars from 1925 were inoperable and the replacement R44s had not yet arrived. By 1980 the MP72s were back at the LIRR for many years, and converted from MUs to diesel push-pull coaches.
Thanks for the correction on the dates -- wasn't really sure and didn't feel like getting out the books that have photos of them!!
LIRR M-1/M-3.....85ft long/10ft wide
NYCT R-44/46/68/68A.....75ft long/10ft wide
SIRwy R-44.....75ft long/10ft wide
NYCT (BMT/IND) R-32/38/40/42/143.....60ft long/10ft wide
NYCT (BMT/IND) R-110B.....67ft long/10ft wide
NYCT (IRT) R-26/28/29/33/36/62/62A/110A/142/142A.....51ft long/ 9ft wide
LIRR and NYCT platform heights are differ by a couple of inches
Well that's the long and the short of it !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Wowsers! THANKS Unca Bill ... never knew the 110B's were 67 footers. What an UNUSUAL size. Makes me wonder WHAT they were thinking. :)
Wasn't that the lenghth of the BMT Standards?
that was the joke, yes
Heh. Just checking to see how many killfiles I'm in. :)
haha never thought of that Northman
MOO, brother! 18.8 inches! Woohoo! Our dairy critters are pumping out ice cream! :)
>>Wasn't that the lenghth of the BMT Standards?<<
Sarge,
Yes and also the SIRT cars too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Amazing to me how many completely missed the tongue in cheek. Then again, you had the advantage of seeing in person how serious I am about anything. It WAS amusing though that the 110B's resurrected what was once a "standard" ... never knew that. Then again, in a time of married pairs or worse, 67 feet is a bad size for what is accepted today given platform lengths.
Glad the Sarge fell for it too ... I can't wait to be cuffed at Branford for being a wiseass. :)
Good morning Selkirk, hows the snow up there ?
Bill "Newkirk"
14.8 inches so far (just went out and measured it, looks like a frontloader for our 1/2 mile road at $500 out of my own pocket) but then again since our business is on the property, we can wait until they do the mall parking lots first. Another 3-6 is expected over the next few hours as the NEXT band of the storm rolls through.
Then again, this is NORMAL for winter here - we had a long reprieve. Trains are running normal schedules, Amtrak is as usual, unaffected by it between here and NYC and it looks like the peak of it was right overhead. Out west and up north, not much at all. Skiing down in the Catskills looks good for the weekend, up north, it's still cold so the jets should be making a railtrip for skiing worthwhile from anywhere.
But yeah, we FINALLY got a normal snow up here.
YOU KNOW YOU'RE FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK WHEN...
You only own three spices - salt, pepper and ketchup
You design your Halloween costumes to fit over a snowsuit
When the mosquitoes have landing lights
When you have more miles on your snowblower than your car
You have 10 favorite recipes for venison
TrueValue Hardware on any Saturday is busier than the toy stores at Christmas
You live in a house that has no front steps, yet the door is one yard above the ground
You've taken your kids trick-or-treating in a blizzard
Driving is better in the winter because the potholes get filled with snow
You think everyone from the city has an accent
You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie with only 8 buttons
You owe more money on your snowmobile than your car
The local paper covers national and international headlines on l/4 page, but requires 6 pages for sports
At least twice a year, the kitchen doubles as a meat processing plant
The most effective mosquito repellent is a shotgun
Your snowblower gets stuck on the roof
You think the start of deer hunting season is a national holiday
You head south to go to your cottage
You frequently clean grease off your barbecue so the bears won't prowl on your deck
You know which leaves make good toilet paper
The mayor greets you on the street by your first name
There is only one shopping plaza in town
The major parish fundraiser isn't bingo - its sausage making
You find -20F a little chilly
The trunk of your car doubles as a deep freezer
You attended a formal event in your best clothes, your finest jewelry and your snowmobile boots
You can play road hockey on skates
Shoveling the driveway constitutes a great upper body workout
You know the 4 seasons: Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter, and Construction.
The municipality buys a Zamboni before a bus
You actually 'get' these jokes, and forward them to all your Northern friends
A $400 electric bill is a bargain.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
67' was the length of the BMT standards, and would work on the BMT Eastern division (was built for 8 car trains of 67' BMT Standards). Also 9 67' cars is a 600' train, same lenght as 10 60-footers or 8 75-footers.
The original SIRT cars were also 67'. Some of them actually ran on the BMT in the late 1950s.
-- Ed Sachs
Yeah, found it amusing that the TA would choose a car length for the 110B's that was the ONE carsize they never did again ... someone nostalgic in the engineering department? :)
No quite, it would have been the largest car to be able to run on THEE ENTIRE B DIVISION, Eastern BMT included.
The thought was to Down size , but it ended in an odd number, difficult to break for shorter sets.
avid
What ever happened to R110 A/B?
Last I heard (1998ish), the NY Post said the 110 A's were comatose at 207th..full of all manner of defects,
Is this still true? What's the fate of 110 B?
Now that 142 and 143 are here, will we ever see these again?
Actually 9 x 67 is 603 Feet.
Sixty-seven feet would have been a very useful size. It would fit everywhere on the system yet require only 9 cars for a full length trains off the Eastern Division instead of 10. It would also have allowed a longer train (than 8 60' cars) on the Eastern Division.
Instead of being made up into four-car unit, they could have used three-car units. Three 3-car units = full length train.
What could we have called them? Well ... uh ... maybe R143-B, and the two car units for the Eastern Division an R143-BT. Yeah, and we'd need some singles. How about R143-A? And if we put in some trailers, let's see ...
Keep on adding those designations and car types, and you'll make the car maintainers down at CI and 207th Street VEEEERY mad that they have to learn so many more car types :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Kewl info. Thanx!
I didnt realize that IND/BMT and LIRR trains were the same width. The LIRR trains seem so much bigger to me.
As I understand it, SIR could pretty much take anything if the propper modifications were made to the platforms.
:-) Andrew
I was just looking at some metal Lo-V route and destination signs I have (they're about 4" x 25 1/2"). They've been sitting in a closet for some time and I notice they have some light rust on them. It varies a bit--some have some rust on the white lettering and some have it on the black background. All seem to have some on the tabs on the top.
The signs weren't wrapped in anything.
Would I be safe in using some lukewarm water with dishwashing detergent to clean them and then to put some regular paste wax--Johnson's or Simonize, for example--to preserve them?
I could experiment but I'd rather find out if anyone else has experienced this problem and dealt with it this way or some other way.
Thanks much,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Be very careful with any detergent.
I had two different experiences, one sign cleaned up very nicely, and the other sign's lettering almost washed off. The white lettering got very thin, and the black started to show through.
Some people spray a clear coat of lacquer on their signs to prevent further deterioration. Others rub them with oil. Some don't do anything. You will have to decide which is best for you.
I would suggest that you get them out of the closet, and on the wall where you can enjoy them.
The same goes for cloth roller curtains, especially the ones printed on both sides. I started scrubbing away on the GG portion of my R-1/9 sign box's route curtain, and the white paint started to bleed.
I was just looking at some metal Lo-V route and destination signs I have (they're about 4" x 25 1/2"). They've been sitting in a closet for some time and I notice they have some light rust on them. It varies a bit--some have some rust on the white lettering and some have it on the black background. All seem to have some on the tabs on the top.
The signs weren't wrapped in anything.
Would I be safe in using some lukewarm water with dishwashing detergent to clean them and then to put some regular paste wax--Johnson's or Simonize, for example--to preserve them?
I could experiment but I'd rather find out if anyone else has experienced this problem and dealt with it this way or some other way.
Thanks much,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
TLC 45 Jan 06 08:00pm
Chemical spills; sabotage; uncontrolled track crossings; subway incidents.
Original Airdate: January 6, 2002.
Allen: Thanks for the tip.
Larry,RedbirdR33
For anyone who missed it, it runs again at 11 ...
Which # is TLC 45? Does it run in the Boston Area?
"The Learning Channel" ... satellite, cable only ... check local listings, it's called "TLC" in most guides ...
they didnt include anything subway related i believe
just some kids getting run over and a cult gang pulling a screw causing a derailment
I wasn't the one who recommended the program, merely let folks know where it was and where to cop the rerun. I *do* hope the interviews with BLE members at the end got the attention of some who think taunting conductor Darwin is a hoot though ... I have plenty of friends who have been through that too ...
And of course, they just HAD to identify Cajon Pass, California as "El Cajon Junction".
The San Diegan that ran over the kid wasn't "Amtrak 557" either. More like 575 at the time of day they reported. I don't think they ever had a 557 out here. I remember when that thing happened, about 12 miles from my place -- that woman was on a campaign to get the trains to creep through her neighborhood, that wasn't shown in the program.
That's probably a good thing. Giving neurotics like that woman TV time will only get her much-needed attention. NIMBYism (oh and campaigning against railroad operations) should be punishable by death. I've never been run over by a train, so where the fuck is the problem?
In New york that should be 52 if you have Time Warner.
Nothing on Malbone St, I think. Or even the drunk Lex T/O at 14th about 10 years ago.
Actually, the railfans who do fieldtrips should call themselves the Malbone Street Irregulars. I doubt many affiliated with the TA would know what it meant, and those who did would smile.
"Malbone" is probably one of the most obscure majors except to us nutcakes here - and yeah, I rode with the inner circle of the Malbone Boyz on Kissmoose. I know there was a show that had the 14th Street wreck as one of its segments, but NBC Educational (TLC, et al) isn't interested in something so limited in scope for a nationwide audience as what went on in NYC so I wasn't really expecting anything subway related.
And the Malbone Boyz REALLY go to town when a certain gate car at Branford rolls. :)
Heeeeyyy! I resemble that remark!
;-D
Hahahaha ... I can mark you as "present" then. :)
If ONLY you knew how MUCH Nancy and I were into the Malbone thing. There are times that I *swear* my own obsession with it is based on my having died in the original disaster. And I swear YOUR obsession with it is likely based on you having been on the train too. But that's WAY too Hindu for the both of us ... and then again, do you have a BETTER excuse? It ain't joyriding the rut ... you and I had that both in common since childhood ... must be deeper ...
We're in good company as Paul Matus can also be included in our 'elite fraternity'.
Did you ever get to see Paul Matus' '15 minutes of fame' on MetroTV spouting the history of the original Brighton Line? You missed a good segment.
;-D
Somebody get me magnetic oxide! "Transit transit" and other "cable access things" are never exported. Out here in the BOZONE layer, folks have a general concept that NYC has "subways" and that they look just like the TORONTO trains ... if they ever saw a GENUIINE NYC subway car, they wouldn't recognize it, but those paired-windows jobs on the Canadian metro *ARE* the BMT ... outside of NY, there is no sch thing as the IRt or the IND, there's the BMT ... ONLY ... that's what they sell at the sandwich shop *if* you have a coupon. :)
Would LOVE a dub of any such tape ... no gots ... hey, those of us who inhabit this place and a few others NEED to realize what a small minority we ARE ... we could get FEDERAL GRANTS if we had the smarts to ORGANIZE! Heh.
Kev, I'll see if I can secure you a copy (but first I need one for meself, since the original I had got erased accidentally...:-(
Kewl! I'm a sucker for train stuff ... oh ... you already knew that. :)
I missed the show. Was there anything on the two 1950 LIRR wrecks?
Not a damned thing ... in fact, it was typical "TLC/DSC/History Channel" BORING ... missed the first part, watched it twice and from a railfan perspective was NOT "Trains Unlimited" ...
Sadly, about all us subway flippers can get into is precisely what you get RIGHT here and on a handful of other NYC transit oriented sites. Yeah, we get our yayas on the D train, but the rest of the planet goes "yawn" and considers an intermodal freight the height of civilization. Hell, it's all *I* have locally ... "whoo-hoo! UPS trailers on flatbeds" ... now I've stained my pants. :)
But yeah, having both sides of steel wheels and rail, I'll take the R6-2, please. :)
You are quite right, Kev.
It's like if an accident didn't happen to Amtrak, CSX, Conrail or Burlington Northern, then it didn't happen at all...
Like the world of railroading only includes Class One Lines...
BMTman
WELL ... it pretty much does ... like I've said over and over, us subway freaks are SERIOUSLY mental defective and mongrel type individuals, the reason why American Flyer, Lionel or Kato has *YET* to release subway cars for their modelling fleets. Now I understand there's some limited providers like MTH and others who release limited quantities of NYCTA issue ... but as an *N* gauger, I might as well settle for a GG-1 - no subway cars for you ...
Let's grab the keys and the black bag of that T/O ... this train's making NO stops to 191st Street ... run like hell, this train's been hijacked! KOO-BA! :)
Jey, there ARE N-scale subway cars made by Kato -- they ARE Japanese prototypes, but I got to looking and with just a leeetle work, they could be made to look somewhat similar to R-38's. (The cars are actually the 2000-type that are in MSTS.) They come in a seven car set (two powered); just remove the pantographs and dress 'em up. I've been reeeeeeeallll tempted.
And Kato does make nice outdoor island and side platform sets that work just fine for subway stations.
I believe there's another brand -- "Green Max" -- and "Tomix" that also make Japanese subway cars that could be adaptable.
Oh, and you DON'T want those N-scale GG-1's. they're expensive and don't stay on the tracks very well. And they don't pull anywhere near what a real one could do.
*MY* subway set are Kato 103 replicas ... SORTA like the R27's as far as door and window appearances go - that's what *I* run on my desktop, soon to be a BVE route known as "Selkirk" ... probably two weeks if I don't get any BUSIER before release ... ain't had time to "neaten up my mess" of a BVE route ... but "R" equipment it ain't - the 103's have large front window FULL-WIDTH cabs on them and that ain't right. But it has had to do for me ...
And yeah, this is a DESKTOP railroad - GG1's wouldn't get up to speed until they hit the wall. :)
I might as well settle for a GG-1...
NOW you pushed my button!
#4800
Wonder what NYCTA "train ops" would think of the GG-1? THIRTY-TWO "notches" ... "OH, which one suits my mood today?" Heh.
Green Max has some N scale cars as well as Tomix and Kato, plus there are some N scale NYC prototype cars produced in resin (I think - might be styrene) from Images Replicas (he also imports some brass). Nice stuff - I've seen it at the East Penn meets - but the Green Max is more to my liking since my eventual subway scene will be a fictional line in a fictional city rather loosely based on New York, hence absolute authenticity isn't that important.
And my GG-1s will pull just about anything, providing the track is smooth - I've done a two-unit lashup and pulled nearly 60 Kato illuminated passenger cars much faster than a quartet of Kato diesels could.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, for the fleet here, we settled on KATO 10363, 10364 and 10365 "1960's 103 series" rolling stock that looks VAGUELY like the R27/30 class on the sides with front ends that are anything but subway. They suffice, along with a three car RDC set that emulates the old Poughkeepsie bus or those of the Hartford line. Does it for me. :)
I didn't get to see it, and am curious if there was anything about the 1859 Springbrook/Denslow Wreck in South Bend, Indiana.
My bro' was just visiting from DC and had the unhappy experience of putting his Metro Fare Card through the wash. What he ended up with was shreds of lint--you wouldn't even have a clue of what it was.
$12.35 remaining on the card down the drain (literally).
Has anyone had the experience of "laundering" a MetroCard? What were the results? Would the card survive, but the magnetic strip not? Could anything be recovered by TA computers?
I found one major difference between the NYC metrocard and the DC farecard. the DC one is made of paper, and is very easy to rip. the NYC one is made of some kind of paper laminated with plastic. its very difficult to rip. but i think running them through the wash wouldnt be one of the smarter things one could do with them.
Has anyone had the experience of "laundering" a MetroCard? What were the results? Would the card survive, but the magnetic strip not? Could anything be recovered by TA computers?
I did that once, it survived just fine.
If I was a Consumer Reports tester and I was testing the durability of fare cards, judging by the posts about the fare card from the DC transit system it would earn a rating of "Not Acceptable".
#3 West End Jeff
It flips over at 37.8 mph? :)
--Mark
No, it dissolves in 120 degree water in a gentle cycle.
My sources in Vegas are adept at laundering cash, but were stumped at the concept of laundering a MetroCard.
This is one instance where tokens would be superior to a stored-value card.
They are paper. Most paper objects don't survive the laundry. Too bad its in shreds because otherwise you might be able get another one. One more reason why SmarTrip is better than a standard paper card.
They are paper. Most paper objects don't survive the laundry
With the notable (and fortunate!) exception of money.
U.S. "paper" money is actually cloth.
I have a few questions concerning the AirTrain and a possible LGA AirTrain.
1.Is the Port Authority planning a LaGuadia AirTrain?
2.Is the MTA investing in the AirTrain?
3.If there is going to be a LGA AirTrain will it involve any connections with the IRT lines?
4.Is the Newark AirTrain suppose to be extended to any terminal?
5.Off Topic, besides the Bridges, Tunnels, subways and buses does the MTA control any other forms of transportation?
I have a few questions concerning the AirTrain and a possible LGA AirTrain.
1.Is the Port Authority planning a LaGuadia AirTrain?
Nothing but talk.
2.Is the MTA investing in the AirTrain?
It's a Port Authority project, funded by a federal tax on airline tickets. I don't know if the MTA is paying for the renovations to Jamaica Station and Howard Beach.
3.If there is going to be a LGA AirTrain will it involve any connections with the IRT lines?
One idea that's been proposed is a branch off the 7 train.
4.Is the Newark AirTrain suppose to be extended to any terminal?
Newark doesn't have an AirTrain in the JFK sense. What it does have is a monorail that runs between the terminals, to certain parking areas, and now to a station on the Amtrak/NJTransit Northeast Corridor line.
Too bad they didn't extend PATH to EWR
That's in the works. PATH is conducting a feasibility study.
AirTrain: "It's a Port Authority project, funded by a federal tax on airline tickets. I don't know if the MTA is paying for the renovations to Jamaica Station and Howard Beach."
MTA budgeted $75 million for a complete Howard Beach renovation (full ADA compliance both platforms, new station building, better integration with AirTrain, etc.) The Port Authority is paying $100 million of the $387 million cost of a new Jamaica Station.
Newark doesn't have an AirTrain in the JFK sense. What it does have is a monorail that runs between the terminals, to certain parking areas, and now to a station on the Amtrak/NJTransit Northeast Corridor line.
That sounds to me very much like AirTrain in the JFK sense.
I want to praise TD, much as we often disagree, in re his expressed attitude toward the job. He approaches the ideal. In turn, I also favor passes for ALL city enployees as a job perk.
I was at Chinatown today -- was there eating very good fude with my friend Austin. It only cost $5.00. On the way back, we went to the Chinatown Orange Line stop to catch a train. We had quite a wait for the train. There was an older gentleman who was standing on the platform waiting for the same train. He spat thrice from his mouth onto the trackbed. He had grey hair, which was once black, brown eyes, and was about 5'4". He also mumbled to himself in a language which was not English.
That behavior is quite normal in NYCT stations as well.
You sure got a good description of him, planning on going to the cops?
Yesterday around 2 AM I was riding on a manhattan bound E and there was this angry white man who is probably in his lates 30 board the train from 63rd Drive and starting cursing at everyone including me on the train. As the train stop at Steinway St Station, he immediately spat on the empty bench across from where I'm sitting and then left the train. I guess something must have set him off earlier.
>>I guess something must have set him off earlier.<<
That could be one of the following:
1) The (V) wasn't running.
2) The Metrocard vending machine would accept his crinkled bills.
3) The bartender threw him out for throwing salted peanuts at the TV screen.
4) His girlfirend left him for another guy and took his weekly unlimited Metrocard with her. That could explain why he went to the bar to get soused.
5) Telemarketers got the best of him.
6) heypaul ran over his foot with his bicycle.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>6) heypaul ran over his foot with his bicycle<<<<<....Ha Haaaa... Ha......(LOL). Now thats a nice one
U forgot, he was fired from his Job
If you hock a clam onto the third rail, is it gonna cause sparks?
:-)
Five bucks for good Chinese fude? You have to let me know where so next time I'm in Boston I can check it out. Just joking.
What you saw is nothing new -- probably another immigrant who didn't make his million bucks in a week so right away 'America no good'.
...along came Jack and Jill and they all
lived happily ever after...
the "grey hair which was once black" line
gave it away.... and there is no orange line
in NYCT subways...
I forgot to mention that it was the MBTA Orange Line.
WAS THIS NYC OR NOT?????????/
I DUNNO
MBTA is Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority or some variant thereof. So the answer is no.
As long as it's not the platform, it's no big deal to me.
From the Mon 7 Jan Times:
certain important participants are pushing to have the rough outlines of an overall redevelopment plan that includes offices, cultural institutions and residential buildings settled upon within three months or so.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/07/nyregion/07SITE.html
Silverstein says he's gonna start rebuilding 7WTC by the end of the year. The article (and I!) suggest otherwise. It sounds like he and David Childs are conspiring to rebuild the Great Wall of Vesey Street, probably even more pedestrian-unfriendly than before.
There you go jumping to conclusions again! Not for nothing, but can you maybe think positive? Let's see what the plans are and then start bitching about it if you feel it's warranted.
If they really want to do something useful, not only rebuild 7 WTC, but also help CUNY rebuild one of its buildings that was next to Ground Zero, because if you have been noticing advertisements recently, there are going to be a lot more students going up and down the #1 beginning January 29th.
Rebuilding WTC 7 would be a great start. Let's just hope the new CEO of New York dosen't put the emergency command bunker back in there. Not only was it building on a giant bullseye, all its diesel fuel probably burned the building.
Absolutely. Seven is a "key" in another way -- the basement holds the Con Ed substation for the area.
It amazes me that they put the command center at the WTC to begin with., especially after the 1993 bombing.
In any case, I think the architects did a real good job in building those towers, since it has survived the 1993 bombing, the old UHAUL truck slamming into the basement, and the South Tower for 56 minutes after a BOEING 767 smashed through. and 1 hr. 40 mins. for the North Tower.
Also, was the bombing in BOTH of the basements, or only under one tower?
In any case, I think the architects did a real good job in building those towers, since it has survived the 1993 bombing, the old UHAUL truck slamming into the basement, and the South Tower for 56 minutes after a BOEING 767 smashed through. and 1 hr. 40 mins. for the North Tower.
I was talking to my aspiring architect friend who attends Pratt Inst. In Brooklyn and and he had been told by those in the know that the whole WTC Invincibility thing was somewhat of a public whitewash. For example, many professionals have found that if the 1993 bomb van had been 6 feet over it would have brought the whole tower down. Also there was a huge design flaw in the truss floor system in that if one truss failed a whole row of them would fail. This would leave a large unbraced gap in the verticle columns, which would then start to bow outward resulting in a collaspe. There were also problems w/ the fireproofing flaking off. None of these played a roll in 9/11, but they were not the best designed buildings.
That is new to me, I never knew the 1993 bombing came so close to collapsing the north tower.
Would one tower collapsing weaken the other? I would think so.
WTC wasn't the best of skyscrapers. It was a rather dull building designwise, it wasn't built the sturdiest way, so in windy situations I've heard people on upper floors got sea sick. I've also heard that because the PA built the World Trade Center NYC fire codes DID NOT apply. That frankly is quite disturbing.
Hopefully the rebuild plan will design better and more fashionable buildings, like City Spire and the new Bear Sterns building.
I would like a Rockefeller Center like layout, with new enclosed subway and PATH connections. The mall should have seating and a food court area, unlike the old WTC mall. Also it most definately should be connected to the WFC.
It has been made clear 4 50 story buildings would be the best way to re-claim the office space but one or two of the buildings should have an un-occupied tower with perhaps an observation deck and a new TV mast to replace the old one.
A memorial should be in the center of the new WTC complex.
It would be nice to have an observation deck with a memorial on any new WTC. Even if the building is only 60 stories tall., of cource a far cry from what was there. By the way how tall is the highest building in the Financial Center, I hope the new WTC will be at least a little taller than those buildings.
I am surprised at how everyone is surrenderring to the money men on this. The new WTC should be at least 110 floors. $ilver$tein does not own the property. Pay his insurance claim (pointedly singular) and dismiss him.
Oh I agree completely. I hate the fact that they are talking about shorter buildings. And I hope there is a push to rebuild something tall there again, but I just don't see it happening. It is next to impossible to get anything built in NY. When I mentioned an observation deck on the shortewr buildings, it was just my way of hoping there will be at least something the general public can visit along with tousists that at least will be in the air with a view. No way anywhere near what was there but at least something. I just hope that I am wrong and they do build tall buildings there again.
I completly agree.
There's a part of me that would like to see the world's tallest building built there.
The other part says that no one would rent it and it would just be another target.
In the WTC in Newsday thread someone sugested a space needle type building, with an observation deck. That wood solve the problem of height and no one renting high. Then build the new trade center with 60-70 story buildings around it.
As much as I think the Space Needle is silly-looking, that sounds like an interesting idea. Maybe something a little more graceful looking. I'll have to search for that thread.
Yeah, it sounds like a nice compromise between economical sense, and gaining back the height we once had with a space needle type bstructure. No one would mind going up high to the observation deck for a few hours, and you'd still have the economic sense of office buildings up to around 70 stories that people wouldn't be scared to rent or work in.
I'm shifting my responses over to here.
Thanks for the info on the thread.
A 110 story replacement would be a great symbol. Unfortunately, no one would rent the top 50 floors, and therefore no one will build it.
A 110 story replacement would be a great symbol. Unfortunately, no one would rent the top 50 floors, and therefore no one will build it.
That's what they said about the first WTC. 20 Years later it was the hottest property in Manhattan. If they put an Air Force missile battery in the top 10 floors of one there would be no problem.
Unfortunately, no one would rent the top 50 floors, and therefore no one will build it. ... That's what they said about the first WTC. 20 Years later it was the hottest property in Manhattan.
The reason the WTC didn't rent in the early '70s had *nothing* to do with height. It was because the PA flooded the market with office space during a recession. So they had to put state offices into it until the most recent economic up cycle, when they could evict them for higher-paying financial industry tenants.
And "20 years later" was pre-9/11. Fears may fade over time; New Yorkers have short memories and real-estate greed usually wins. But tall buildings just aren't as profitable as ones around 50 stories. The infrastructure required for the upper floors makes the lower floors much less spacious, even with "sky lobby" elevator systems. Note that the 110-story buildings were not built by a private developer, but by a public agency.
The design efficiency of 50-story office buildings plus perceived tenant resistance to renting higher floors means neither Silverstein nor anyone else will build 110 stories of offices there again unless they were to be HUGELY subsidized. And they won't be.
It's theoretically possible, however, that a 50-story office tower with something 60 stories high on top of it could be built. I will be fascinated to see the design studies that emerge. This is one TOUGH architectural assignment.
This is about more than efficiency, it is a matter of national pride and the local economy. The large buildings act as a magnet that anchor the local economy. The large concentration also eliminates sprall which serves a public good. Something special needs to go on the WTC site. Either a 100+ story building or a park. Anything else is basically spitting on the grave of 3000 people.
Anything built on the WTC site, especially a large building, will be a target for every terrorist, wannabe, and nut case in the world.
Would YOU want to work there?
I'd be willing to work on the 50th floor of a 50 story building. It would blend in with the neighborhood.
The Empire State Building is a target just the same. If that came down, then the Chrysler Building would be a target, and so on. Why don't we just live in underground concrete bunkers?
Yes, every tall building is a target. Whatever is built on the WTC site will be even more of a target. Remember, this was the second try.
Leaving the area unbuilt would remind us that we have to be vigilent at all times -- as a former secretary of state once said, at any given time 2/3 of the world is awake and plotting against us. However, I think that we will rebuild, and, if so, I would suggest nothing higher than 30 stories or so.
A good reason against a higher building is the simple fact that you now have to assume everyone above the impact level will die. The fewer exposes, the less risk. Also, since the time for the fire department to climb the stairs is about one minute a floor, you don't want to make it impossible for them to get there in time.
PS - I was on the 11th Floor of 7 WTC when the first plane hit -- about 120 yards away (horizontal). Sorry, being aimed at once in my life and seeing the effect up close and personal is enough.
A building w/ a concrete core (like the ones in Malaysia) is much more resistant to fire and impact. Furthermore, people above the impact point would be able to get down. I think we should have two new WTC towers, the same on the outside, but stronger on the inside.
First, they should have a no-fly zone over Manhattan from the GWB all the way down to the Statue of Liberty. Then, they should build a cluster of skyscrapers surrounding a memorial park. The plan will be as follows:
70 70+ 70
60 Memorial 60
50 Plaza 50
40 50 40
Any skyscraper with more than 50 stories should have missiles at the top, and those with over 60 stories should have a vulcan cannon at the top, which can fire 11,000 rounds a minute at any plane that enters the no-fly zone.
Leaving the area unbuilt would remind us that we have to be vigilent at all times
The people who propose turning the entire site over to a dead memorial (as opposed to a living memorial with people living, working and playing within) are fools. Just because the destoyed towers are part of the World Trade Center, doesn't mean the entire site should be condemned to death. By the same logic, all of Lower Manhattan should have been closed as a memorial because the Twin Towers were a part of it.
Thank god the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't listen to you. Maybe those cities should have been left open to remind us of why the bomb should never be used again?
An empty site would be nothing more than a grave. Last I checked, interment is illegal in Manhattan.
However, I think that we will rebuild, and, if so, I would suggest nothing higher than 30 stories or so.
At least 60 story towers are locally promiment. Thirty story towers are nothing more than a waste of space and materials, new buildings lower than 40 stories should be banned in Downtown and Midtown. As it is now, they might as well be since nobody is building any. New York could never have advanced to the level it has if there was a height limit.
A good reason against a higher building is the simple fact that you now have to assume everyone above the impact level will die.
Everybody below the impact level will also die. The failure of a larger number of people to evacuate is a function of confusion and limited exits. Had the towers held longer, people stuck because of blocked exits would have made it out, the deaths at the time would be limited to those at the impact point. Helicopter evacuations (assuming buildings remain standing) would solve the problem if all exits were blocked.
Life has risk. All of an airplane's engines can fail, causing a deadly crash that kills everyone aboard, yet travel by plane is SAFER than surface travel. People continue to fly in planes (except for idiots who fear planes and increase their chance of death by driving) and drive, even though everyone knows they can die. All of the above forms of travel are still more likely to kill you than a terrorist attack. More people have died in car accidents than in every war the United States has fought, combined, yet look at any road today.
The only thing that can guarantee 100% safety is the grave.
I was on the 11th Floor of 7 WTC when the first plane hit -- about 120 yards away (horizontal). Sorry, being aimed at once in my life and seeing the effect up close and personal is enough.
Some people who get into near-misses with their car don't drive again, most do however. Even if one doesn't drive after a near-miss, it doesn't affect another person's desire to continue to do so.
If you fear tall buildings, fine, but you are not all people.
I have to agree with all of your responses. Especially about leaving the site vacant. That is totally ludicrous. First of all it would leaving a gaping whole, an open wound that never heals, like an ulser. That is not fitting for the memory of all those who died. They must not die in vain, otherwise the terrorists do win. Unfortunately we may never have 110+ there again. Put it must be at least 60-75 stories, that would set it off against the financial center. Even taller would be great, but the talk about 30 stories is crazy. Even small cities have taller than 30 stories. What are we progressing into the past?
30 stories? Do they think the WTC was in Brooklyn? We need tall buildings again, ones that are taller than the WFC - even by 10 stories would do it.
I like the thrust of your post. We may not get a 100-story building, but Mayor Bloomberg has clearly indicated we will get economic development at the site.
You can have economic devolopment anywhere. The WTC site needs something fitting of the name "World Trade Centre II". Maybe when Jersey City builds the 120 story "We're Better Than You" centre, NYC will get its act toether.
Mike, we don't usually agree on too many things, but you are right on the money on this.
The large buildings act as a magnet that anchor the local economy. The large concentration also eliminates sprall which serves a public good.
It's not individual buildings that anchor the local economy, it's the concentration of space in the same district.
Something special needs to go on the WTC site. Either a 100+ story building or a park. Anything else is basically spitting on the grave of 3000 people.
I agree with your first sentence, not your second. My definition of "something special" is more expansive ... I wanna see what the planners and architects come up with before I pass judgement.
Remember, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial -- one of the single most moving pieces of artwork/architecture/monument I've ever had the privilege to view -- couldn't possibly have been envisioned before Maya Lin created it. I'm hoping that the WTC site can have something similarly moving. I just don't think it has to be a 100-story building. I do hope the memorial has some kind of park-like setting, but even that I'm holding back on til I see the ideas.
Frankly, I hope there's a design competition.
Remember, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial -- one of the single most moving pieces of artwork/architecture/monument I've ever had the privilege to view -- couldn't possibly have been envisioned before Maya Lin created it. I'm hoping that the WTC site can have something similarly moving.
At the risk of getting a few people aggravated with me... I don't see any real comparison between the WTC attack and Vietnam. The two are drastically different, by many orders of magnitude. Yes, what happened on 09/11 was a tragedy, and yes, some form of memorial should be made, but the scale of the memorial should be appropriate to the scale of the loss. A WTC memorial on the scale proposed by many on this board would be a slap in the face to the young men and women who gave their lives in Vietnam in the service of their country, young people who served rather than running away, young people who were proud to be Americans. I don't mean to disparage anyone who was lost in the WTC tragedy - far from it. Many died as heroes. I simply feel that we need to keep things in proper perspective.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't see any real comparison between the WTC attack and Vietnam. The two are drastically different, by many orders of magnitude.
Hoo boy!
First, I used the VV Memorial solely to convey the emotional impact of a built monument. I intended no particular comparison of the Vietnam War and 9/11.
However, I would venture to say many Americans (those under 35 or so) have few if any memories or first-hand knowledge of Vietnam. The emotional impact of 9/11 to them will always be far greater. This is, if you like, their Vietnam.
Every generation has different touchstones. I don't think that making a 9/11 memorial bigger, grander or more moving depreciates the value of the VV Memorial. It's not a zero-sum game.
However, I would venture to say many Americans (those under 35 or so) have few if any memories or first-hand knowledge of Vietnam. The emotional impact of 9/11 to them will always be far greater. This is, if you like, their Vietnam.
It's true that the under-30s don't have any memories or first-hand knowledge of Vietnam (my 34-year-old daughter remembers some of it), but 9/11 was just one moment in time. I don't believe it will define a generation as Vietnam has done. The technological changes of the last seven or eight years, and those yet to come in the next seven or eight, will define theirs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
50 Story buildings aren't going to move anyody. We have those in Philly. I can get the same experiance and save the Amtrak fare.
50 Story buildings aren't going to move anyody.
The buildings are not the memorial. The memorial is, whatever it turns out to be.
Yes they are, If the private sector will not properly redevlop that site then the government should do it. USE MY TAXES
A memorial on top of the 50-60 story buildings -- something like a lighted arch between two of the four towers that would also be accessible at the top for an observation deck -- would solve the problem of the structure's reduced height.
The offices would remain lower than 500 feet, making them easier to rent due to post-Sept. 11 fears, while the memorial -- if it were about the height of the Gateway Arch in St. Louis -- would put the observation level back up at about the 1,000-1,100 foot mark that the old WTC observation deck was located at. Black buildings with a silver arch (or red, white and blue if you're patriotic) lit at night a la the top of the Empire State building and angled at a diagonal to the downtown street grid would provide a view of the memorial that could be seen not just from downtown but across the metropolitan area, the same way the Twin Towers were when they were standing.
That's not such a crazy idea. I thinlk any memrial should be on top of any buildings built there as opposed to on the gr4ound. It must be somewhat feasible. How tall is the space needle, that's built not as a real usable building, but sort of like a symbol. On a smaller scale the Stratusphere in las Vegas is built as a symbol. (Iknow that's a totally different situation. In Las Vegas, people just leave their money and almost anything could be built)
The Space Needle is IIRC about 500-600 feet tall. The Eiffel Tower is just under 1000 feet, and the CN Tower (the tallest free-standing structure in the world) is over 1800 feet. The tallest manmade structures in the world are guyed antenna masts with heights in the low 2000's (don't recall the latest numbers).
Compare that to the Chrysler Building at 1000 feet, Empire at 1250, WTC towers at 1360, and Sears at 1450 feet.
Thanks that puts it into perspective a little better.
Thanks that puts it into perspective a little better. By the way in Malysia, the tallest buildings, how much taller were those?
I checked the facts again in the 2001 World Almanac:
The Petronas Towers clock in at 1480 feet each, and are the tallest "office" buildings (that is, measured to the top of the main structure) in the world.
The Sears Tower was the tallest in the world until the Petronas Towers were built, and is 1450 feet tall to the top of the structure.
The Jin Mao Building in Shanghai, China is 1380 feet tall.
WTC I and II are (were) 1360 feet tall. To the top of the antenna mast of WTC I was about 1700 feet, making it the tallest "building" in the world in that sense (notwithstanding the taller structures of Jin Mao, Sears and Petronas)
Other notables in NYC: Empire at 1250 feet (about 1400 to the top of the antenna mast), Chrysler at 1050, American International Bldg at 950 feet, Trump Bldg at 930 feet, Citicorp Center at 915 feet, Conde Nast building at 870 feet - I could go on for a long time. 1 Liberty Plaza and the American Express Building (3 WFC) are both about 740 feet tall, the Merrill Lynch Building (2 WFC) about 645 feet, and the Woolworth Building is about 790 feet tall, all not far from the WTC, and 7 WTC was 570 feet tall.
(I'd also note that the Verrazano bridge's towers are 700 feet tall, and the GWB's 600 feet tall, putting them in competition with the buildings in the vicinity of the WTC.)
As for towers - CN is the tallest at 1815 feet. This is the tallest unguyed structure in the world. There are others in the 1400 to 1700 foot range. The Eiffel tower is just under 1000 feet, and was built a century ago. The Space Needle is 605 feet tall.
From what I can gather, the tallest structures period are guyed antenna masts about 2000 to 2200 feet tall.
Given the advancement over the past 35 years in lighter weight construction materials, a 50-60 story arch connecting two 50-60 story buildings on the WTC site wouldn't be that unfeasable, and some sort of design could probably be factored in to to allow such a memorial to "break away' from the anchoring towers should it ever come under a similar terrorist attack. Bad news for anyone right below it or in the observation area, but it would increase the survival rate odds for the office workers.
The buildings themselves, at 50-60 stories, would be a tough target for any direct air attack, even from the west due to the World Financial Center, since the bulk of the buildings would be at or below the buidling line around it (and Osama's heirs would be unlikely to settle for the Woolworth Building as an alternate downtown target).
Osama's heirs would be unlikely to settle for the Woolworth Building as an alternate downtown target
At the risk of perpetuating an off-topic thread ... I have to think that if this particular attack method were tried again, the obvious targets are in midtown: Empire State Building, Citicorp Center, Pan Am building/GCT, probably in that order. First two easier to get to (fewer surrounding buildings at the 60-story level), but Pan Am does more damage 'cause of the GCT train complex.
Ugh.
One LAST suggestion on this general topic - "let's not give COPYCATS any ideas" and secondly, the NEXT terrorist attack, wherever it happens will also be a COMPLETE surprise - news to CNN, news to MSNBC, news to FOX ... but NOT to anyone who understands the mindsets at play here among REAL terrorists - already covered are "ship in a dirty nuke in a container boat," fly another plane (been done, so not really likely) into a nuclear plant (covered also) and a raft of other "ain't been done yet, oh sheet!" scenarios ...
DON'T ASSUME (Odd couple blackboard show) that the "next trick" will be something you planned on, and SIMILARLY, don't expect it to be in NEW YORK ... might be Dallas, Atlanta or Chicago, but their whole "trip" is element of surprise and "wow factor" ... more likely 50 shopping malls at one time get rocketed ... sure "destroys the economy" even if people won't realize the other "modus operendi" of "been there, done that, let's do something ELSE next time" ... and yes, the "mall thing" is covered also ... I'll say no more.
Fer Krissakes, STOP cowering in a bunker ... STOP letting the bastards win by people's spending their otherwise CREATIVE TIME on this ... put your thoughts into something USEFUL ... no offense intended towards any one party, but the more time we waste on this crap, the more HONOR we're giving the bastards ... DON'T give them the damned time of day ...
Fer Krissakes, STOP cowering in a bunker ... STOP letting the bastards win by people's spending their otherwise CREATIVE TIME on this ... put your thoughts into something USEFUL ... no offense intended towards any one party, but the more time we waste on this crap, the more HONOR we're giving the bastards ... DON'T give them the damned time of day ...
BEAUTIFUL! No one could be any more right than you are right now.
During one of the stupid "terrorist attack warnings" around October or so, my father asked me if I believed that I should be afraid of a terrorist attack (I don't remember what exactly the question was). I responded by saying the same thing you did about surprise, and then going on to say that "Death is sweeter than a life in fear."
Sorry for being "agreeable" but when you and I have gotten past preconceived notions, we've almost always agreed actually. I meant what I said ... I know you've seen urban and suburban realities while I favor the cow pastures, and you and I have always seemed doomed to the old "Bronx handshake" here and there, but we really do agree more than we don't ... you and I BOTH have a low tolerance for "el toro caca" even if we're both from different times in the continuum. :)
TERRORISM is about making people be their OWN worst enemy ... and fighting YOURSELF is counterproductive ... if ONLY CNNBCMSNFOX could get a clue and stop aiding and abetting the ENEMY ... whoop, way off topic ... moo.
(I am surprised at how everyone is surrenderring to the money men on this.)
Don't you live upstate, John? Do you want your state tax dollars going into new office buildings in NYC? I certainly don't want my local tax dollars going there.
Let the public sector build the Second Avenue Subway and similar things. Let the private sector build the buildings.
I would gladly increase my taxes to pay for such a project. The FEDERAL government should be taking the lead on this as it is a NATIONAL issue
I would gladly increase my taxes to pay for such a project. The FEDERAL government should be taking the lead on this as it is a NATIONAL issue.
I suspect you're probably in a minority. I suspect most Americans would gladly support a portion of their tax dollars going to the victims of the tragedy, but I'm not sure they'd view Larry Silverstein as falling into that category. Maybe make up any shortfall in his insurance to pay him out of the lease, or something.
But governments getting into the business of building something that the private sector does well -- like commercial real estate -- is viewed by most Americans as A Bad Idea.
The WTC itself, remember, would not have been built as tall as it was if it had been built by a private entity. Most likely it wouldn't have been built in that form at all. And I think I'm of the opinion that it's a good thing that the PA will not be rebuilding the office space, residential and commercial pieces of it.
Although in the Daily News description of the PA/TA passageway/transit hub, it does sound like they wanna build a LOT of stores. Underground mall, anyone?
KEEP $ILVER$TEIN OUT
KEEP $ILVER$TEIN OUT
Why?
he wants small buildings
[why we should keep Silverstein out]
he wants small buildings
Can you blame him? He knows full well that people are going to be very reluctant to rent the upper floors in 110-story buildings. And he's a businessman, in the deal to make money, not to make a political or social statement.
Business sense has no place here. BUSINESS MEN ARE NOT GOD. USE MY EAXES. It's an AMERICA thang.
>>It's an AMERICA thang. <<
When Ramzi Yousif, the maker of the bomb used in the 1993 attack, was flown by helicopter over the WTC, one of the officers told Yousif that his plan had failed and the towers did not fall. His response, "Next time, they will."
This is not about profit, it is about rebuilding for the public and future good.
This is not about profit, it is about rebuilding for the public and future good.
NYC is built. The only development is re-development, and on the whole, up-scale redevelopment. We are like a European city. Why tear it down in the first place? And if you do tear it down and replace it, will it destroy the neighborhood?
Re-development is best done in the public good. Silverstein wants four 50 floor blahs. The cop and fireman widows should start picketing his offices and residence.
We are about three months from the first official rebuild plan. It will undoubtedly follow what I have dubbed the 'fire hydrant rule', i.e., everyone in the place with any say over it will leave his mark on it. What they give us might smell like a subway platform.
It's up to us'ns to prevent a banal redevelopment.
I don't think the public would stand for a "banal redevlopment" overall for the site -- something will have to be bulit there as a reminder of what happened on Sept. 11.
But as far as any office space above 50 or 60 floors, unless the taxpayers of New York City, New York State and/or the federal government are willing to give Larry Silverstein a guarenteed subsidy for 100 to 110 floors of office space to be built in two towers above the bottom 50 or 60 floors, if it turns out that space is not rentable, then new buildings over 1,000 feet tall on the site are not going to be built (though I think a memorial attached to the buildings and above the office space that would rise up to the level of the old WTC is possible, since virtually no one would be working in the area higher than 600 feet above street level).
His remarks in favor of 50 story "towers" disqualify him. USE MY TAXES!
His remarks in favor of 50 story "towers" disqualify him. USE MY TAXES!
Not gonna happen.
What about all those NIMBYs who trounce the will of the majority.
Instead of complaining here to people who do nothing, maybe you, I and some like-minded PATRIOTS could create a vocal minority.
Of course it's just the young idealism that lets me say things like that, and that makes me fortunate, because I have not yet been introduced into the false line of thinking that one cannot fight City Hall.
That's a fine opinion, but not one consistent with the law. Whether you like Silverstein or despise him, he has a lease on that land and an insurance settlement of at least $3.5 billion coming his way. He has a legal right to build on that land.
All that the governmental powers have is the right to tell him what is allowed, within certain limits (i.e., the zoning function). But the land was zoned for 10 million sq. ft. of office space, and the courts have looked askance at radical downward changes in zoning where buildings have already been built.
So the government and through it the people can twist his arm but they can't tell him to go away altogether.
He has a legal right to build on that land.
That depends on the term of his lease. If I lease a house to I have the right to knock it down and build a new one? I would think that any major modifacations would require PA approval.
If I lease a house to I have the right to knock it down and build a new one?
Uhhhh ... Larry Silverstein didn't knock down the property he leased. Ten terrorists did.
So he gets compensated and the property returns to the lesor. That's how it works with railroad locomotives.
So he gets compensated and the property returns to the lesor.
It's entirely possible that could happen, depending on whether he gets $3.5 million or $7 million (one "event" or two?). But it may be he feels he'll make more $$$ over the long term by hanging onto the lease, building those 4 new 50-story buildings and continuing to act as landlord.
I wonder if his lease even addressed what would happen if a different quasi-governmental entity (Rebuilding Board) than the one he leased from (PA) decides that something different will go on the site he leased? What happens then?
It was a coordinated attack ONE EVENT ONE CHECK, $3.5 Billion.
It was a coordinated attack ONE EVENT ONE CHECK, $3.5 Billion.
I can argue both sides. There are apparently legal precedents for each side. But neither your opinion nor mine matters a whit. The courts will decide.
Since we're on the subject, here's a story from Newsday's website via the Associated Press on Traveler's Indemnity arguing for the single payout.
Insurers say one plane could have downed both trade center towers
I think it's a crock trying to count this as two events. It was ONE terrorist attack not two. I would even count the Pentagon in with that.......................... FOUR planes - ONE coordinated attack.
KEEP $ILVER$TEIN OUT.
Don't you live upstate, John? Do you want your state tax dollars going into new office buildings in NYC? I certainly don't want my local tax dollars going there.
Let the public sector build the Second Avenue Subway and similar things. Let the private sector build the buildings.
Of course, the WTC had been built with public money ...
Of course, the WTC had been built with public money ...
Well, public agency money. Don't believe there were government grants involved. IIRC, the PA covers all its expenses with revenues from bridge & tunnel tolls, port fees, etc.
Think of the PA more as a legally-sanctioned government monopoly on certain necessary infrastructural things -- kinda like a govt-owned Con Ed, I guess.
Not private investment, certainly, but not "my tax dollars" going directly to infrastructure either.
That is new to me, I never knew the 1993 bombing came so close to collapsing the north tower.
It didn't. Mike has simply repeated another urban legend.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My source on this is fairly respectable.
That may be, but that doesn't mean he has his "facts" straight.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Consider how much more damage each plane did compared to what a single bomb could have done, and yet the towers didn't collapse until the heat from the fire destroyed far more steel.
The plane that hit the north tower immediately destroyed a good portion of the skin and so much of the central core that no one could escape down any of the 3 staircases from above. And yet the tower above held until the heat from the fire melted much of the skin that hadn't been destroyed immediately.
So even if a bomb had essentially destroyed the whole core (unlikely since a Ryder truck doesn't hold that much explosive), the skin would have held the tower up.
But the plane impact was high up, so the weight to be supported by the remaining columns was less.
I agree it is unlikely that the truck bomb would have taken the tower down -- especially after seeking the relatively light structural damage. Remember, the cause of the tower's fall wasn't the damage to the outside or the core, but probably the loss of integrity in the floor beams causing a cascade of collapsing floors.
The reason it swayed is because it was designed that way. If the building was rigid the wind would have damaged it and it wouldnt had that much protection. The swaying abosrbs the forces induced by the wind. According to an article I read, a spring design is implemented into the foundation to make the building flexible
Rebuilding WTC 7 would be a great start. Let's just hope the new CEO of New York dosen't put the emergency command bunker back in there. Not only was it building on a giant bullseye, all its diesel fuel probably burned the building.
Actually, I hope what gets built on the 7 WTC site is VERY different from its predecessor. 7 WTC was a huge monolithic slab'o'building without grace, character or architectural distinction. The first building to rise over Ground Zero has to be pretty damn special.
I also hope that the old ROW of Greenwich Street, which 7 WTC was built over, is reserved so that Greenwich can be restored through the former site -- whether for cars or pedestrians. That decreases the footprint of the building, but makes far more sense in planning the entire site and reconnecting it to its neighborhood. I'd also think it would make restoration work and any future modifications to the IRT much easier.
They've hired David Childs of Skidmore Owings Merrill, IIRC, who's a respected architect. I'll be very interested to see what he comes up with.
Which building was #7 WTC. Was that that wierd black building that was wider on the top than the bottom? Or if not what was that strange black building?
Seven was technically not a part of the WTC itself. It was on the north side of Vesey Street.
The building lot was a trapazoid shape. In the original construction, the site was used as the location for a Con Ed substation. In the 80's, the Port Authority sold the air rights to Silverstein, who built Seven over the substation.
The "strange black building" -- was it on the east side of Church Street (the Millenium Hotel) or the south side of Liberty Street (the Deutche Bank Building)?
Is the Millenium hotel still closed? The building looks OK, I wonder when it will re-open.
It must be the Deutche Bank Building, because I know what the Millenium looks like, and that wasn't the one I meant.
Which building was #7 WTC. Was that that wierd black building that was wider on the top than the bottom? Or if not what was that strange black building?
Number Seven was the northernmost building, the one that wasn't on the rest of the WTC site. It was bounded by Barclay on the north and Vesey on the south, with Greenwich dead-ending into it from the north. It's next to the Deco brick Verizon building on West Street that was heavily damaged. 7 WTC was connected to the rest of the WTC complex at plaza level with a platform over Vesey Street that made Vesey a miserable dark ugly canyon as it descended down to West Street.
It was built by Larry Silverstein in the early '80s, IIRC, for a brokerage firm that went spectacularly bust. He finally put Salomon in there, I think.
I don't remember what color it was, but it had sheer sides all the way up for 50 stories or so. Trapezoidal shape. Not sure what the black building you're referring to would have been, unless it was the tall skinny hotel building across Church Street that used to be the Millennium Hotel. That's still there.
7 WTC was not built over the 1/9 lines. They were/are underneath West Broadway, immediately to the west. They only come underneath what used to be Greenwich St where West Broadway and Greenwich St formerly merged (pre-1970) just south of Vesey.
According to my Hagstroms, the only building on top of the 1/9 was the former 4 WTC at the south end of the site. The rest of the area above the line on the WTC site was plaza space.
http://wcbs880.com/apnews/2002/01/06/n/HeadlineNews/AP-NYC/20020106001909/news_html
I seem to recall a stolen pickup truck trying this last year. Maybe GM should install Hy-Railers as standard equipment. Where has our friend Heypaul gone to?
Another one is on the way!
Next weekend: No 1 Service between Chambers and New Lots, 4 service to NL.
All Uptown 2 Service via the East Side.
5 Service between Dyre Av and Times Square in both directions.
Work is not concentrated on the East Side this time around, but construction is happening somwhere in the Wall St Area on 7th Avenue.
Stay tuned....
-Stef
Better start putting annoncements on the whiteboards now.
You telling me? Heh. I'm on vacation until I return on the 21st, so I won't be dealing with this. BTW, how did the 1st Day of the new pick go?
-Stef
Mass confusion. Alot of extras getting assigned the wrong L/R jobs. Times, locations ect. Not to mention alot of people calling the desk to find out who's relieving them.
Great. I didn't see a Vacation Relief award sheet in any of the booths where I worked, so I figured there was a problem.
I hope nothing unpleasant awaits me when I return...
-Stef
It has been a pretty interesting week. And this is just Tuesday morning!
Good advice. I was at 149th-GC and there was great confusion over whether there was subway service to Lexington from the lower lever or not.
Speaking of which, a crowd condition developed at 3rd Avenue-138th Street Yesterday. Apparently, someone was under the impression that a shuttle bus service was available to 149th St-GC.
The buses were available in the southbound direction, towards 3rd Ave only.
RTO Control Center issued a statement via the radio waves, instructing Crews to remind customers to wait at 125th St for the 2 to the Bronx, and that buses were available in the Southbound Direction Only.
-Stef
Like anyone is going to read the whiteboard...
I've been screwed by skeds!!!! Don't have my car... would have called in for OT... news pointed out #2 off line on the weekend. Hope the rails get a gud fixemup. CI Peter
Yup, there is barebone tracks on the fulton curve. Probably some work there, or digging up some other track.
Concrete Pour, if they're finished...
-Stef
Stef: The curve right after Fulton on the northbound track are a skeleton. Previous GOs had the 2 single tracking btwn Wall and Chambers on the midnites since there is no loop for now. I guess its time for the concrete pour. I have to get ready for more confusion in both Bklyn and Manhattan. Ill email u later.
Thanks for the info.
-Stef
Is it safe to assume that, like last week, the 3 will run local and the 5 express?
This GO is very much analogous, in effect, to last week's. Last week, service from the Bronx to the East Side was severed; now, service from Brooklyn to the West Side is severed. One major difference, though, is that last week there was a shuttle bus to fill the gap while this week there's nothing. It seems like it wouldn't be difficult to run a single-track shuttle from Fulton (transfer from the 2/4) to Chambers (transfer to the 1) on the SB track (returning light to Fulton). With a bit more effort, the shuttle could continue up the local track to 14 (filling in for the 1, which has to run express) and back down the NB express track -- although the NB express track probably isn't reverse-signalled. (Imagine the confusion. Chambers would have NB local service on the NB express track, SB service on the SB express track, and NB express service on the SB local track. 14 would have NB local service on the NB express track, more NB local service on the SB express track, SB local service on the SB local track, and nonstop service to Fulton on the NB local track.) At the very least, transfer tickets should be used to permit the transfer from Chambers IND a block away.
Redbird fans: This may be your last chance to ride the thrilling Redbird express between 96 and 42. (Once the 2 returns to express service, I suspect the Redbirds will be gone from the line.) Ride it while you still can.
Yup. Service Patterns on the 3 and 5 shouldn't be any different.
Single tracking from Wall St to Fulton St sounds feasible, but others will disagree. It may be more of a headache than it's worth.
The only question I have since I am unsure of this, is how the 1s will operate over the weekend. Will they depart from the southbound express track, or the southbound local? If they leave from the express track, crews are going to have to get that train out as quickly as possible. Remember that there are southbound 2s still going through the area. Depart from the local track, and the train will go express to 14th St in the process.
-Stef
Express track at night, local track during the day. Notice that a different posted GO has the 1 running express from Chambers to 14, exactly as you predict.
No surprise there, IMO. When no GO is in effect, the night 1 terminates on the express track at Chambers, but the occasional daytime short-turns at Chambers are on the local, running express back to 14.
I recommended single-tracking from Fulton to Chambers, not Wall. The NB track at Wall is the whole reason for this GO. A shuttle from Fulton to Chambers would allow 2 passengers to transfer at Fulton and again at Chambers to get back where they belong.
Yes it would be difficult because, the shuttle trains would be in the way of the S/B 2 trains. Even though the 2 is operating at 10-12 minute headways. Lets see how it works out. Last week, people had a choice of riding the shuttle bus to 3Av-138St or staying on the 2 to Times Sq and shuttle over to the east side. Most chose the latter. This week there is no choice, everyone have to stay on or change at Atlantic Ave or Fulton St for westside/Lower Manhattan service.
I don't see the difficulty. The NB track is unused between Chambers and Fulton. How could a single back-and-forth shuttle train get in anybody's way?
The lack of choice is exactly why I think a shuttle would be appropriate.
BTW, where exactly was the work taking place last weekend? It looked like it was being done on the SB local track at 138 -- but if that's it, then the 4 could have run into Manhattan on the express track and the 2 could have run normal (but the 5 would have been cut back to E180 or sent to Times Square, since it can't reach the express track). Similarly, there didn't seem to be any point last weekend in sending the C express and D local from 145 to 59; the only work was at 42, and the C could have run local from 145 to 59 and switched there to the express.
Do you think single tracking would have worked out? What about the headways?
-Stef
That was exactly my point. Plus the work is being done on the curve on the north end of the station at Fulton. No way a shuttle go all the way to Fulton.
If the only work were at Wall, a single-track shuttle from Chambers to Fulton would have been fine. Ten-minute headways would have sufficed.
However, when I rode through on Sunday, work was being done on the northbound track at Fulton as well. That makes a single-track shuttle impossible, of course.
There's another GO coming up if you're interested, this time it effects the 5 between 149th St and 180th St, this weekend. Not sure what this is for, but I'll find out first thing Saturday Morning.... This may be for ongoing signal work but I'm not really sure.
-Stef
Thanks, but this one isn't terribly exciting; it's no different from the overnight 5. (I assume the 5 wasn't running at all this weekend south of E180; the GO wording implies that the 5 is also running between 149-GC and BG, but I find that unlikely.)
My guess is work on the jughandle at 149-GC or at the SF inner loop trackage.
No problem.
The work was on the downtown track at 149th St-GC, putting into effect single track operation of the 2 to 135th St.
-Stef
Interesting. I'm surprised the TA was willing to single-track a through service during daytime hours. I believe the 5 is terminating at E180 again this coming weekend; is this for the same work or is it on the other track this time?
Three weekends ago (when the 4 terminated at 149-GC), do you know where exactly the work was? The only work I saw was on the SB local track at 138. I'm sure there must have been more, or the 4 would have run through, bypassing 138 on the middle track, the 5 would have been cut to E180, and West Side service would have been unchanged (except, perhaps, for additional 2 service to fill in in the Bronx).
It maybe for the same work as before, but I'm unsure of this.
As for the work on the 4, they were performing a concrete pour on the track in the south tube under the Harlem River, causing that weekend's GO.
-Stef
Simplicity is why they swap the C and D. You'd have the A, C, and D all sharing the same track in the station at 59th if they ran normally north of it. A lot easier to lock the express track to 8th ave and the local to 6th ave.
Simplicity for whom? Simplicity for thousands of passengers trumps simplicity for the TA. (It didn't help that announcements at the CPW local stations neglected to mention that anything at all was running local.)
The A, C, and D could easily share a single pair of tracks at weekend headways. In fact, an occasional D could cross to the local track to get out of the way of an A/C, if necessary. Of course, that would require that the TW/O remain awake, which apparently is more of a demand than you'd like to make.
WCBS 880 is reporting this morning that the Queens private bus companies are on strike, and commuters are advised to "take the subway." OY, the QB and 7 lines will be busy this morning!
No snow in the city this morning, but an inch perhaps by this PM. Storm of the epoch? Nah.
And that's Transit and Weather Together.
14.8 inches of REALLY gloppy stuff so far at Selkirk, Albany county ... apparently we collected the "purple banana" with another 1-3 to arrive in an hour or so from the west. Had it been dry snow, 30+ inches would not have been a surprise. CSX is still running, everything else here is typical. First real snow we've gotten so far this year - the ski areas in the Adirondacks got anything from NOTHING to about 2 inches. Further north you go, the more "nothing" was received. Thought it might be useful for some weather color for the 'cast. :)
If the city got what we got, it'd be pandemonium. I suppose there's no rides to be had on the SET train today or I'd hop on Hamtrak. Heh. It's running too ...
I wonder if Thurston joined his colleagues in the wildcat strike this morning?
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe that's one we shouldn't ask ... you don't have wildcats though unless things had gotten pretty bad ... maybe they're discussing it over on the BT board. I like Thurston and all, but really ain't into busses. Too upstate a transportation form ... and up here, there's a lot of places (like where I live) where you can't even catch a BUS ...
That is too bad in a way, because I'm sure that they're are some people that would need a bus to get where they are going. At least where I live in Hastings-on-Hudson you have a good amount of bus service courtesy of Westchester County, and rail service that is provided by Metro-North.
#3 West End Jeff
True, but this is the HILLS ... either you have a car, a horse, or this time of year a dogsled. I'm so far out in the sticks, ain't no point in sending out busses. Nobody to ride them except roving gangs of Bambis and prowling bears and they beat the fare. :)
The M would see an increase in ridership since the QM24 serves Glendale. In addition, Q39 passengers, who ride from Glendale, Ridgewood and Maspeth to areas around Queens Plaza, utilise the route since subways in that area take them dirctly to Midtown Manhattan with no extra fare thanks to their MetroCards. All these people would have to pick up the M as well where passengers would have to connect with uptown trains to get to their destinations. The Queens IND and the #7 line would get the brunt of regular Queens Surface Express Bus passengers.
I expect most people who use the 2ueens Surface Lines in their morning commute use them as feeders to the subways. I doubt there will be a marked net-change in Queens subways ridership. It will hurt having to walk instead of ride to the subway stop for many, though.
Yup. I suspect that was the reason I had such trouble getting a spot today near Van Wyck Blvd.
:-) Andrew
Where's Mr. T when you need him?...;-D
"Where's Mr. T when you need him?...;-D "
Mr. T is over on Bustalk, where he reported that as of 11:49 AM:
The Strike is Over
CG
He was on the OTHER side of the picket line all the time.
Mr rt__:^)
Now don't those NIMBY's wish they had a Rockaway Branch, A Winfield line, a Montauk Branch subway!
avid
Now don't those NIMBY's wish they had a Rockaway Branch, A Winfield line, a Montauk Branch subway!
avid
A few express bus customers were waiting for the QM21 near my school, and one got the idea to call the company and ask why there wasn't any bus. She told everyone of the strike, and all 20 people went for the subway. Multiply that by every express bus stop in Queens every 10 minutes and you have one (1) assload of additional people.
Strangely, the subway this morning seemed less crowded. Maybe because people who normally txfr off the buses weren't able to get to their usual trains. I'll bet there was a 'late' rush hour this morning.
Wow, I had seen the notices on the buses, but I didn't know the strike had begun.
So, what was the deal with the guy who was driving the Q11 that I got on this morning at 8:30? I guess he was either some management guy, or else he is one of the workers who didn't get word of today's wildcat action.
Well, good luck to those guys, anyway. Parity with MTA people is an obviously just cause.
Just what is the history of those private franchises in Queens? Why are they still there? Isn't it true that some Manhattan bus routes were once run by private companies, only to be later taken over by the MTA? And weren't there also pay equity issues between the two sets of drivers there?
I am curious as to why these Queens companies have continued to control those routes.
By the way, in my experience of living in the Woodhaven area for the past 14 years, the Green Bus lines have been extremely reliable. I have always been pleased with the service on the lines I have used, the Q11, Q8, and Q10.
I just wish that the Green Lines didn't put two rows of double seats in their buses. They should put two seats on one side, and one on the other, like the MTA buses. Putting two rows of double seats makes that center aisle impossibly narrow, especially in the winter.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Because you didn't get a seat, you want 5 or 6 people to give up the ones they got! i don't think so!
avid
What a ridiculous response.
As it happens, due to the fact that I usually board the Q11 at Liberty Ave., I almost always wind up getting a seat, only to watch other people with coats and bags struggle with an impossibly thin aisle. But, sometimes I get on elsewhere along the run, and I am the one struggling.
Either way, the point stands -- the presense of two rows of double seats is a very poor design for the kinds of crowds that pack those buses.
And the discomfort is not just for the standees -- someone in a window seat who tries to get off at a stop that not a major one will face a mighty challenge getting to the door through the pack. The thin aisle just doesn't allow standees to move out of the way, so there is a type of human gridlock which can form. This does not happen on those buses which have only one set of double seats and a wider aisle, even with extreme crowds.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I moved to Brooklyn a couple of years ago, and I'm very curious as to what exactly is going on with Atlantic Ave. station (sometimes described as 'the worst place in the world'). Does the city intend to build anything in that giant hole in the ground? Should I be concerned about the structural integrity of the passages? Some areas of the station look like they're in imminent danger of collapse.
Is there any publicly-available information about this particular construction project?
Atlantic Av is undergoing a major renovation, to be accomplished over many months.
No, it is not at the point of collapse. You need not be concerned at all.
Both the BMT and IRT Atlantic Ave are undergoing renovations. I assume you are talking about the IRT Atlantic Ave. You'll be fine. As for the hole in the ground, who knows whats going to be there. I herd different scenarios myself.
Hey, Mike. I heard that one of the things that is coming to the IRT/LIRR Atlantic Avenue complex will be a 'food court', which I assume will be similar to what's already at Penn Station. KFC, McD's or Pizza Hut will likely occupy some of the space that is currently being created beneath the IRT tracks about mid-station. Most of the work though is a much-needed widening of the underpass at Atlantic. For years it has been a nightmare traffic-jam of people trying to get between Pacific & Atlantic trains of both IRT and BMT/IND or the LIRR.
BMTman
I use that station daily. Whatever they're doing, I hope they finish it soon. Its a disaster.
Whatever they're doing, I hope they finish it soon. Its a disaster
I wish they would build something on top of it all, too - like this:
What if they can't find enough old cars?
:0)
Or the Fifth Ave. El!
That would make a fine locatin for a Horn & Hartdart Resturanut.
avid
Ah! And what a treat it would be to see MP-41's coming and going from Atlantic Terminal!
We can still dream, can't we?
BMTman
If the final result is a wider passageway between the IRT and both BMT stations on the D/Q and B/M/N/R lines, it's worth being inconveninced right now. Perhaps they're making transfers from the LIRR to the 2 BMT routes here more convenient. Too many of the LIRR riders transferring to the subway here use the already overused IRT lines.
No I think he means Atlantic on the L train.
Sorry, I was reading the wrong thread. Disregard my previous post!
Just wait till they start ripping the roof Off Atlantic ave (Irt) Will be outdoors .Wont Morning Rushes be grteat in the rain.
My understanding is that the E train still goes to the WTC station to turn around, even though the official 'last stop' for passengers is Canal St. If someone were to forget to get off the train at Canal St. in order to sneak a peek at the WTC platform, particularly the doors that used to lead to the WTC mall, would that person get arrested, or just yelled at?
Probably not, but standing on the "through platform" next to it over Kissmoose, I *did* notice that the trains didn't seem to go ALL the way into the station, apparently just clearing the interlock for a relay and stopping before fully entering. No doors are opened, so I don't see it would be any kind of a safety issue if there were lingerers beyond the safety of the crews themselves. The EXITS are closed though, so no sneaking out of the relay ...
They are not going to see anything as the doors to the site are covered over by wood.
It would be difficult, they search the trains when they stop at Canal.
There are at least two platform conductors on permanent duty there.
They do a quick walk-through before the train goes down to reverse.
It's similar to the 6 train years ago. When I was about 20 (early 90's) they always made you set off at BB as it made the loop at City Hall. One day a friend and I wanted to sneak on the train to see the station which we'd never seen. The driver caught us, after some persuading, he was nice enough to let us stay on, and was actually happy we were interested in it. I don't know if they were supposed to let people stay on, because it seemed like something he wasn't supposed to do.
yea but now the 6 loop is legal. Motormen still bug me about it but there are no more cops to stop you. so i usually hang in the 2 or 3rd car and it works. C/R's no longer check either
I was assigned to Canal Street to clean out the E trains the other day. We were instructed to call for police if anybody refuses to leave the train or if we see anyone riding in there. The E crews, particularly the Train Operators, Walk through the trains when they get to WTC and they too will call the police if anybody is caught on the train. Remember, It's a crime scene and there was looting in the mall after 9/11 so they are taking it very seriously. Besides, The doors are completely sealed with a steel wall across the whole width of the mezzanine. There is nothing to see.
-Mark
I didn't see you there, were you there over the weekend?
Plus we don't open the doors at WTC.
Maybe I should ask the question on this thread.
Are the platform and station intact? Is there anything other than surface issues (keeping people away from ground zero) preventing them from reopening the station to customers? There are exits above the station that are now accesible outside the ground zero fence.
can't fully berth in the station check old posts
The station itself is there and you can watch the trains relay from the Chambers A/C platform.
Bowing to criticism from its passengers, NJ Transit is backing away from an attempt to eliminate its off-peak discount program, which accounted for 7 million tickets last year.
Article by Joe Malinconico in Sunday's Star-Ledger
Bowing to criticism from its passengers, NJ Transit is backing away from an attempt to eliminate its off-peak discount program, which accounted for 7 million tickets last year.
That's good. I was worried sick if this chance was obliterated. I support NJT for its fare increases, but when you cross the line, you've got criticizing and rebuking peoples on your back.
Here's a question:
What city in North America, which currently does not have heavy rail rapid transit, do you think is most in need of it? Where do you think the next subway system should be built?
I'd love to hear opinions on this matter.
Mark
Does Seattle have anything? If not, they could use a few real transit lines. Their railroad station is not in downtown, which has resulted in commuter rail service never being acceptable because then you'd still have to take a bus to downtown.
A good shuttle from the station to downtown, with an extension to densely populated mid-northern areas of the city, might be easily justifiable and then might stimulate commuter rail service.
On the other hand, WA residents don't believe in taxes, even for services they'd really like to have.
Yeah, I sometime follow the news stories about Seattle's attempt to build merely a light rail system and the going to often rocky.
Mark
My cousin lives and works in seattle. He & his peers like the monorail, and have pushed for it to be extended. The polits have instead proposed a wasteful lightrail system.
In what ways is the monorail more efficient than a light rail system, and what do the powers-that-be have to gain by opting for a separate light rail system instead of expanding the monorail?
Mark
monorail.org has a FAQ section. I agree with their analysis.
What if the Waterfront Streetcar line was expanded and incorporated into the light rail system?
Does Seattle have anything? If not, they could use a few real transit lines. Their railroad station is not in downtown, which has
resulted in commuter rail service never being acceptable because then you'd still have to take a bus to downtown.
A good shuttle from the station to downtown, with an extension to densely populated mid-northern areas of the city, might be easily justifiable and then might stimulate commuter rail service.
On the other hand, WA residents don't believe in taxes, even for services they'd really like to have.
Seattle does have a commuter rail line called Sound Transit. It's currently a rush-hour-only service running on a single line, from Tacoma to King Street Station on the southern edge of downtown. A second line, running north into Snohomish County, is under construction and other lines are planned.
As far as bus connections are concerned, Seattle does have an underground bus tunnel in downtown that functions almost as a subway, not to mention an extensive system of surface lines. Yes, most commuters taking Sound Transit will have to change to another transit mode to get to their workplaces, but that's no different than the situation in most rail-served cities. And note that things would be the same even if the Sound Transit rail station were more centrally located. I would consider downtown Seattle a bit too large - and some streets too steep - to be entirely within walking distance of any one location.
Finally, you are right about the tax issue. After two attempts were shot down in the courts, Washington voters approved stringent limits on property tax increases last November. There are concerns that these limits will make it much more difficult to fund many programs including transit. Washington's sluggish economy isn't helping matters.
What about Detroit and Houston. From what I know neither has any real rail system worthy of its name.
Detroit is currently in the process of trying to pay for the two new sports stadiums it had just built for both the Tigers and Lions (both of which have no teeth judging from their seasons ;-)). Throw that on top of a very depressed economy in that city and the situation there is hardly favroable for even light rail projects. (Hey, I'm still trying to figure out why commuter rail was killed in that city).
Houston is just as large and has a better economy than Detroit, but judging from an trip my mom took down there two years ago, transit isn't much of a priority down there; their bus service, according to her, run more like the Bee-Line's services rather than MaBSTOA/NYCT. So a subway wouldn't be much of a priority down there either.
Denver, on the other hand, has an activly expanding light rail network. At their rate, there should be at least talk of a subway in the not too distant future. Baltimore should continue to expand its Metro lines, while it would kill SEPTA to at least consider one more subway line through downtown Philly.
There will not be much of a Baltimore subway (1 line does not a Metro make) in the future. The money's just not there. If any extension does get built, look for a Hopkins-Broadway/Harford extension with Light Rail from there to Northeast and White Marsh. Maybe about 2060.
The only rail possibility is for an east side Light Rail line from Penn Station to Pratt & Howard, where it would tie into the existing line. Only the City seems interested. The MTA has no vision (the Double-tracking of the existing line has yet to begin, and the MTA's timetable is seven years !, despite the fact that a competant rail contractor could do it in 20 months, top.) and is basically a bus company with two small rail operations and a large bus one.
As to Philly, forget it. SEPTA does not have the money, and Pennsylvania's Legislature isn't going to give any more- they'd love to cut what what they do give even more.
There was talk in Denver of a 16th St. subway to funnel light rail trains downtown. It's not going to happen.
I will say this much: with the overwhelming success of the Southwest Corridor, demand for light rail is growing. It seems that Lakewood, Arvada, and Westminster, just to name a few, all want the next line to come to them.
The Central Platte Valley Spur (C/Orange Line in the new scheme) is slated to open in less than 3 months, just in time for baseball. I predict this line will become Denver's equivalent to New York's 4 and 7 lines. It will serve all three sports arenas.
>> What about Detroit... <<
Uhh..they don't call it "Motor City" for nothing...
I can see the press conference now: Edsel Ford and whoever the heads of Daimler-Chrysler & GM are now announce that the "Big 3" are getting together to underwrite "Motor City Light Rail".
Then again, maybe not...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Houston is very spread out, as are all TX cities. When you live in a single family home in town, chances are that you have a car.
And gas is CHEAP.
And gas is CHEAP.
For now. If, or should I say when, Saudi Arabia explodes, gas prices won't be so cheap any more.
Contrary to the nay-sayers, the world seems to be awash with oil, particularly in the Caspian basin and offshore from the Congo River's outlet in the Atlantic. Some of the nasty business Russia is having with places like Chechnya and Georgia have everything to do with the routing of oil pipelines to Turkey and Western Europe.
There is also the fact that cost-effective alternatives to our usual gas-guzzing internal combustion engines are in the pipeline. The figure I've read is 5-7 years before the price of gas begins its crash.
Contrary to the nay-sayers, the world seems to be awash with oil, particularly in the Caspian basin and offshore from the Congo River's outlet in the Atlantic. Some of the nasty business Russia is having with places like Chechnya and Georgia have everything to do with the routing of oil pipelines to Turkey and Western Europe.
All that's true, but the fact remains that Saudi Arabia still has the world's largest oil reserves, not to mention a disproportionately high percentage of the reserves that are easy and inexpensive to recover. For those and other reasons, the country effectively sets the world's market price for oil. It has been forecast that the fall of Saudi Arabia would boost world oil prices so high that a horrendous three full percentage points would be shaved off the U.S. economic growth rate for up to six months. That in turn would push the U.S. unemployment rate close to or even into double digits.
There is also the fact that cost-effective alternatives to our usual gas-guzzing internal combustion engines are in the pipeline. The figure I've read is 5-7 years before the price of gas begins its crash.
Again, there may be some alternatives, but today's (temporarily) low oil prices surely have slowed down the pace of development. It is essential for the nation's economic and political security to proceed full speed ahead on development of these alternative engines, and of course on better transit systems. But I fear that people aren't interested, thanks to low gasoline prices.
There is also the fact that cost-effective alternatives to our usual gas-guzzing internal combustion engines are in the pipeline. The figure I've read is 5-7 years before the price of gas begins its crash.
And what exactly are those? Hybrid vehicles (Toyota Prius, Honda Insight) are more fuel-efficient but aren't yet paying their own way (the manufacturers subsidize each sale). Soon they probably will be, but that's perhaps an incremental improvement of 20%. Nothing to sneeze at, but ....
Then there are fuel-cell cars, which may be sold to the public 7-10 years hence. But they still need fuel to run, and the ONLY fuel with a global distribution network is ... gasoline. Possibly there will be ways to plug them into wall sockets to separate the water into hydrogren and oxygen, but I don't know.
What were you referring to?
"Houston is very spread out, as are all TX cities. When you live in a single family home in town, chances are that you have a car."
And yet Dallas seems to be doing quite well, with expanding light rail and a successful commuter rail line from Dallas to Fort Worth.
Detroit has a elevated train line in the downtown similar to Vancouver's Skytrain. It also serves the Greektown neighborhood.
Greektown neighborhood
Does uosdwiS r. jewoH live there?
No, a monorail serves that particular Greektown.
Springfield Mark
The monorail is gone, instead people have to ride the bus and tell the difference between the 22 and 22A while not talking to the driver.
But the 22A takes you to the Russian District, not Greektown. :)
Mark
The 22A goes to Sycamore Avenue, Little Newark, Crackton, Airport Refueling Way, Industrial Access Road, Army Proving Ground and Rural Route 9. One has to walk from Rural Route 9 through Area 51-A (YOU ARE HERE, WE ARE NOT) to get to the Russian District, which is 6 blocks from the Springsonian.
I think it would be hard for Seattle to do a lot of expansion of commuter rail. its not in a very favorable location. surrounded on two sides by water, it can really only go N-S efficiently. On the west side of the sound, there isnt much development, but on the east side of lake washington they could use something.
I think it would be hard for Seattle to do a lot of expansion of commuter rail. its not in a very favorable location. surrounded on two sides by water, it can really only go N-S efficiently. On the west side of the sound, there isnt much development, but on the east side of lake washington they could use something.
There may be a large enough jobs base in Bellevue to support light rail, separate and apart from downtown Seattle.
Running a light (or heavy) rail line from east of Lake Washington to downtown Seattle would be very difficult. The floating bridges certainly couldn't accomodate rail, and tunnelling would be dauntingly expensive.
Staten Island.
Hehehheheh! Sorry. Uh... How about some of those New England Cities like Providence or New Haven?
:-) Andrew
How about some of those New England Cities like Providence or New Haven?
If Burlington, VT can have commuter rail, I don't see why not!
Mark
Is that going to be a permanent service or just until construction on Route 7 is completed?
New Haven or Providence having a subway? Heh, that'll be the day. New Haven already has Shore Line East (only in rush hours) and Metro-North (although it's oriented towards New York) and Providence has MBTA commuter service (oriented towards Boston and only in rush hours). Now Hartford, Springfield and Albany on the other hand have no rail service other than a few Amtrak trains. Maybe some sort of diesel light rail service using Bombardier's Talent or Siemens's RegioSprinter would be useful in all five of these small cities. I personally think it would.
I'm not sure, but I think I heard once that it was popular enough that it might continue even after the highway work is finished. I rode it last year and thought it was nifty..wonderful views of the sun setting over Lake Champlain.
Mark
Wouldn't Houston, the fourth largest city in the U.S. be an obvious candidate? Oh, I forgot. It's in Texas, home of the oil industry.
Like the guy said on The Simpsons yesterday, Texas abolished the enviornment and everything that could bennefit it.
:-) Andrew
Choppy the Lumberjack would be very pround of Texas's high-polluting smoke factories and day care centers.
Little did anyone count on how well DART would work...
Mark
You bring me to a question I've been wondering about...Houston and Seattle have been mentioned so far. Seattle is flirting with light rail and Houston is building a line right now, even though its opponents are still a threat. My question is, at what point is light rail inadequate, making heavy subways necessary? Part 2 of the question is, are there any cities that have light rail or are considering it that really need heavy rail instead?
Mark
Light rail is basically a bus on rail; once ridership on certail lines (particularly the key ones) tops the 50K-100K threshold, that particular city should begin consdiering a more conventional subway, which is what's happening in LA as we speak.
Really? I thought the sentiment was against subways in LA. That's good to hear.
Mark
>>> that particular city should begin consdiering a more conventional subway, which is what's happening in LA as we speak. <<<
Which LA is that? Los Angeles has decided not to complete the full length of the originally planned subway, (the Red Line) and has absolutely no plans to convert its light rail routes to heavy rail in the foreseeable future.
Tom
"Light rail is basically a bus on rail"
I don't think many people would agree with that. A streetcar is basically a bus on rail, but most light rail systems aren't streetcars. All the modern systems and surviving old "streetcar" systems** have considerable off-street running, either on private ROW outside the downtown area (San Diego, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, etc.), a downtown subway (Philadelphia, San Francisco), or both (Saint Louis, Newark, some Boston lines). This allows light rail trains to operate noticably faster than would buses on parallel or nearby streets and therefore to be more attractive to the commuting public. Especially with park-and-ride lots, light rail usage in most cities that have it looks more like subway or commuter rail usage than bus usage. To be blunt, a lot of people who wouldn't be caught dead on a bus ride light rail.
**The only exceptions, true streetcars with all street running, are downtown circulator trolleys that some cities (Seattle, Memphis, Dallas, etc.) run, mainly for tourists and for people who work downtown to go to lunch or shopping.
And as Sf' F Market has proven, even a mostly street running line can be jammed ouall day every day if it links major destinations.
Not a direct answere to your question, but Harrisburg has been flirting with rapid transit for years now. The idea at first was for light rail, but was changed to commuter heavy rail because the ROW for Corridor One would be shared with Norfolk Southern on the West Shore and Amtrak on the East, and FRA rules prohibit LRVs on shared ROWs. I do remember reading recently on the board that some light rail systems have gotten waivers permitting daytime light rail and nighttime freight on the same tracks.
I too will echo the sentiment: "If Burlington VT can have light rail, why can't Harrisburg?"
OTOH, VT is a much "greener" state than Pennsylvania, and Central PA is full of tax-cutting Republicans to whom most public works are anethema. I will be very surprised to see it happen, but if it does, I will be on the inaugural run!
Ottawa's O-Train shares with a freight line, running light rail in the day and freight at night, but this is in Canada and therefore the line is governed by Transport Canada and not the FRA. I guess Transport Canada allows light and heavy rail to share the same line.
Texas has no state income tax (and I hope never will). Here in Texas
people love their cars (and gas today was 90.9 but last week I got it for 85.9, no kidding).
Only southern Californians love their cars more. Nobody would ride a train though some have started to ride DART in Dallas.
Houston is still paying the extra sales tax for Enron Field construction.
Houston is spread out. Downtown Houston is boring and devoid of people on nights and weekends.
Houston has a sufficient highway system.
DART has been a big success, though. Areas that once fought it are now fighting to get it.
Mark
Houston would be a good choice for a heavy rail subway - How about Milwaukee? Denver, Dallas, the wtion cities, and others are building/ or using light rail...
You've heard my rantings on the board before. I vote for Wilmington,DE :the corporate capital of the US (or at least it was at one time) where all The NY Banks have moved a large portion of their operations. DART Buses are lousy adn commuter rail is on SEPTA's whim. there's more than enough traffic congestion, corporate expansion and road construction to warrant it.
the joke of it all is that there are radio ads running down here encouraging parents of teens to not just teach them to drive, but how to ride transit....be nice if we had some for them to ride.
I don't think we'll be seeing a brand new subway opening anytime soon. The trend (unfortunately) is light rail for cities with no rail. It's cheaper and is pretty a compromise between a full-fledged subway and simple bus service. IF a system were to be built, I'd predict Denver.
I think it should be Staten Island!!!!
Light rail would be nice for SI - perhaps 1 or 2 lines to begin with, expanding to about half a dozen over time. The SIRT should be converted to light rail (the only exception being if a tunnel to Brooklyn or Manhattan were constructed, prividing direct heavy rail access to the rest of the city).
There just isn't enough demand for heavy rail there yet. Even light rail is pushing it (except for travel to and from the St. George ferry terminal), since most SIers just use their car (since the SIR is inconvenient for most people, local buses are too slow, and all services are far too inconvenient to be reliable.)
Of course, if SI were to get light rail, there should be similar systems in the outer parts of other boros (particularly Queens), to connect to major facilities and to mainline subway stations into Manhattan.
But not in the near future, by any means, due to the budget difficulties.
Amazin stuff!!!!!!! I like the ideas but money is what money does. The system is one hundred years old (I won't fight small differences) as it was designed in Edisons 'tyme.' Not much has really changed...lighting and control systems were converted to AC, rotary converters were eliminated, radio comm was introduced...but the system is a museum to 19th century tech. SOAC and CBTC are supposed to make massive improvements...problem remains that the trackage/roadbed is HISTORY and ripping apart the rubber components of my R142s and wasting out the braking systems. New York outgrew light rail concepts before my birth...introduction to JFK of what I believe is 'something in the middle'......politics. The only thing to make it all work is complete replacement of the subway infrastructure. Salaamallahs pics of LA ala 'Beastmaster 2' catch my attention. CI Peter
I agree - the subway infrastructure will absolutely need to be completely replaced, within (tops) 50 years.
The question is, will it ever happen? With all the NIMBY and the budget fears, inflated bottom lines and work timetables, I don't think it will. The existing systems will simply crumble to the ground one by one, and will lie in ruins like the Miller Highway.
As much as I hate to say it, it appears that our best days are behind us. NYC will have no "next" subway system, and the existing one will be left to crumble one piece at a time until it's a mere shadow of what it used to be.
You paint a very bleak picture although you could be right. To have the New York Subway System collapse would be intolerable. It is the greatest subway in the world and should be made a showplace for what is great about New York. It is the one thing that brings all of us together on this site. Certainly with an improved economy a start can be made to start the improvement and refurbishment of the system. Let's face it, if we had to depend on the car and bus for New York there would be one gigantic parking lot. It can be done and the city fathers must find the means to do it.
I certainly hope that I'm dead wrong.
But realistically, suppose that a large section of a particular subway tunnel were to collapse tomorrow overnight. Say, one of the river tunnels, which could cost in excess of a billion dollars to replace today.
How long would that line be out of service? Would it even be brought back, ever?
Pittsburgh. Although they have a 30 mile light rail system, it's more like a commuter railroad connecting the suburbs to downtown. The majority of the city relies on buses, and the light rail does not service major attractions like sports arenas and shopping districts.
Not to mention the airport - an hour away by car. You can take a regular city bus there too, but who needs THAT? A train would be the most civilized way to get there.
Ironically, Pittsburgh has an excellent and modern, albeit short transit line, within the airport itself.
How about Eastern Queens? My friend's commute to and from school is more then an hour and a half by bus and the F train each way. For the most part, Northern Queens east of Astoria is woefully underserved.
Dan
Ain't that the truth!
LaGuardia airport is in the vicinity. They could use a subway stop.
First of all you post is excellent & does ask a very good question !! I will comment on the failure of the los angeles rail system etc..
Los Angeles did not need a all underground heavy rail system ( red line subway to nowhere ) ...however
running underground downtown only etc.. ( like alanta marta ) & then coming out above ground & then running at & or above grade & along the freeways would have been a better idea.
This concept is being fought on the pasadena gold line by a group here called BLAG
" no blue line at grade "
So I'm stuck in the city because GM picked up my car and it hasn't been checked out YET. I'm watching 'Beastmaster 2' and the bostyk witch tells Lord Dunno he needs LA. And I think of your always pretty pics. Then I'm back to subbing on the Redbirds. LA needs infrastructure transit...it will come after the collapse (if the fault doesn't slide and surfins up in Las Vegas.) CI Peter
Thankz for your support of my pics ! L.A. is headin' for hard times with this bus & car culture ...mostly cars ....
some folk(s) here should never drive a electric go cart yet alone a car !! wooooooo......
No i do not think U need L.A. unless you can afford some of the highest housing & rents in the country...San Francisco is the highest in the nation . Maybe one day i will retire in san diego ....lol !!
You said ....GM " checked out your car " ?? ...just curious not trying to B nosey .....&.................,
If we finally do get the big QUAKE .......oh well it can happen anywhere anytime anyplace anytime ......remember to just " duck & cover " ....lol!!
Las Vegas needs a rail transit system BIG TIME ...A.S.A.P. !! ( they also need a storm drain system when it rains ) ...
Cant wait to see my redbirds this summer ............oh yea !!! .........lol !!
Re: The next subway system light rail..Las Vegas Nevada !! & no 2 ways bout' it ....& they need this here BIG TIME
!! also.. phoenix arizona .... new mexico cites utah st. george another city in nevada near sacramento ca in the north..
the name escapes me ....oh well .....lol !!
Unfortunately, Las Vegas is growning faster than they can build systems. Just look at what they could have done if they had planned a new rail system just 10 years ago, as these new developments are growning. It was open desert, no NIMBYS. Now it may be more of a problem already.
there is a main drag there that it could work......?.......i.. suppose ........
& your point about how da' las vegas, joint' is a growin' is sooo true !! & check dis' out no storm drain system ......DUMB !!
imagine NY - NY..( las vegas ) there.........& no subway ..??....!!
lol....??
My understanding is that a light rail system parallel to the Strip is in the planning stages with funding maybe even committed.
right cuz they run a 24 / 7 cat bus there now !!
I believe it is a monorail that's planned, not a traditional light rail system.
would that connect to any of the private casino lines already installed?
No. IIRC, it will run down the median of the Strip from the airport. There will have to be some sort of platform/ramp to get from the stations to the hotels; I can't see dumping passengers down to the street and having them cross against traffic with suitcases.
this is a map of it called the centerline ...
from the octa info ...
Houston and Denver seem to be getting the most votes here. Would heavy rail be better in these cities than the current light rail projects?
And a further question, should the light rail systems prove inadequate, could the ROWs be used for heavy rail? I presume this would involve some very costly tunneling through the downtown areas of the two cities where the trains run on streets. But it could be easier to adapt the portions of the systems that have their own ROWs.
Thoughts?
Mark
How about the 2nd Avenue subway? That would undoubtedly have greater ridership, instantly, than any of the systems proposed in this thread.
Would you like to be AMTRAK's new Vice President?
How many trains were lined up behind the derailment of AMTRAK #174 10 days ago?
Could the "North-South RailLink" really happen?
How many people are riding The Downeaster from Portland to Boston?
That and a lot more in this week's edition of the Destination:Freedom Newsletter from the National Corridor Initiatives.
Would you like to be AMTRAK's new Vice President?
Nah, I'm not a good corporate liquidator. Now, on the other hand, I wouldn't mind being in charge of whomever gets the NEC...
This movie aired yesterday on AMC, and I caught the subway scenes I'd heard about. The mezzanine appears to be the one at Hoyt-Schermerhorn while the station, both where Barbra Streisand gets on and off the train is Court St. (disguised as Clark St. when she gets off). They used a train of R-7/9s signed up as an LL, and considering the graffiti epidemic was going full force when the movie was made, the train is clean. The only visible car number is that of R-7 1531. The usual R-1/9 sounds are present as the train leaves the station. I thought it was interesting to see that police dog on the car roof once the train had stopped at "Clark St."
These are in service as of January 5th.
6731-35 is currently coupled to 6786-90, while 6736-40 is coupled to 6781-85.
I suspect that 6791-6800 may be on the road. I will have to investigate...
-Stef
Here is an Updated list of R142A's not listed
IN Service on the Pelham Line
- 7496-7500
- 7501-7510
- 7526-7530
NOT in service at Unionport
7561-7570
Saw 6731-35 at Grand Central in service as a (5) to Dyre Avenue.
That was a No.2 but programed as a No.5 to aviod making Manual announcements
How do you program a #2 to become a #5??? CI Peter
Its very easy!
All you have to do is choose No.5 as your route and put you call letters in then all No.5 destinations show up because the computer thinks its a No.5 Train. Also you would have to choose the
Flatbush <5> to Neried Ave destination and Activate the Local Stops from Jackson Ave to E Tremont. It will still stay No.5 Express in the Bronx but say Jackson Ave is the next stop.
I haven't tried it out...easy to do if you have the key. The big complaint from SubTalkers is about route changes that aren't corrected...we don't get the bad news in the pit. CI Peter
What they should do is program the No.2 route to go on the Lex Line
Flatbush (2)Via Lex to E 241
E 241 (2) Via Lex to Flatbush
Frankly, I didn't think the program changes via the TOD were so easy. The LED map display, of course, cannot be changed without the cutout. The system is not flexible...there will be many updates far beyond the warranty expiration. CI Peter
The strip maps as deployed are a mistake. The strip maps shouold be LEd or lcd to allow easy changes. The purpose of using led side signs instead of roll signs were to increase the flexibility of moving a change set from one line to another
The additial cost of led strip maps vs the cost of labor to swap the cutouts would even out over time
New CIs will happily take the work. CI Peter
So they can program the 2 to run via Lex, yet they can't get it to announce itself as a local along 7th Avenue (even during late nights before 9/11) or say "V" and "W". Who came up with those announcements?
Now you know my problem!!!!!!! Inflexibility!!!!!!!!! CI Peter
No they can't program a No.2 for Lex what I was trying to say it should be done. The strip map wouldn't work but it would make currect announcements.
I was looking hard at the remaining mainline redbirds last Thursday, and I couldn't fine 1 single R26 pair left on the #5 line. I saw 1 pair of R28's at the East 180 St. yard, otherwise the #5 is almost completely R33. Redbirds are now a rare site on the #2 and are nearly impossible to find on the #6.
Have all the R26's been "reefed"?
There are still a few around. 7774-75 and 7906-07 were at the East on the track nearest to the fence, when I saw them this afternoon. Don't let it fool you though, the numbers of R-26s on the road is getting smaller.
-Stef
Going, going and soon to all be 'Goners.' #5 crews are learning everything they can on short notice...I'm tired of being a sub on undercar...but glad that my experience gives me the opportunity to answer their questions and make them comfortable in the change...and their foreman knows me and can call upon me anytime. A really, really good feeling that i have learned and can share with my crews and SubTalkers. CI Peter
Chris: Firday,January 4,2001 I saw a pair of R-26's on a southbound #5 at Grand Central in the pm rush. I believe that the numbers were 7804-7805.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Bois...keep on loggin dem numbahs. Take pics too. Ain't gonna be around much longer except in the Flushing museum trackage. Solid state is the way to go....no more DC motor brushes, 'incandescent' lighbulbs, group boxes, roll signs or any other dead weight boat anchor stuff to make me dirty anymore. Twenty first century is here...if you must shed a tear, bend down and reflect upon the trackage. OnTheJuice, CI Peter
7773 has been stripped of its end doors with 7774. 8804/5 are being stripped today with 7786/7 and 8702/3. I believe the last trains stored at 180 are now at Concourse, and another shipment of scrap cars came in over the weekend. 8660/1 may already be stripped as it was in the yard last week. The crane hasn't returned yet for pickups, but there are enough R26/8/9 cars for at least 2 full barges. Bring on the thirty sixes.
I hope IRM gets on the ball and gets their 26s before they're all gone....
-Stef
Is it still true that no Redbirds will be sold to anyone or any museum because of asbestos?
I doubt that. They can be "abated" before selling. Or the buyer can do that at his own expense.
My understanding of the "issue" is that the TA is *so* fearful of potential litigation that they wouldn't even consider "abatement" or "release forms" by ANY interested party. They just don't want those cars TOUCHED ... that's the impression I've gotten ...
Exactly.
-Stef
Bummer.
That sucks big monkey &^%$#@!!!!!!
The Museums can have a Redbird if they were willing to pay for asbestos abatement. Who's willing to do that?
-Stef
Too expensive for most museums, unless some filthy rich benefactor decides to pick up the tab. Looking at my checkbook, I can say that's not me...lol
I saw 7770/7771 in service on the 5 today.
Welcome back,
I just wanted to repost the poll so everyone can have a chance to vote. As a reminder, polling will close at 1:00 PM on Thursday, January 10th, and I will repost a message daily. Click here to see the details within the original post. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
I know this is a bit off topic but you guys are my link to NYC and are great about answering questions so here goes:
Does anyone recall seeing any online articles or information about the WTC Marriott during/after 9/11. The Marriott and Cortlandt street stations were my old stomping grounds while there last new years and July and I'd like any info on the hotel that is available.
All I have seen is what was on the Marriott site that 2 employees were unaccounted for but nothing about what was/is left of the building.
Thanks in advance and God Bless America!
The building is gone.
I was just curioous as to what parts of the hotel went when and if they evacuated prior to the first WTC collapse. Seems like I saw something about pepole being in the hotel when the first building came down.
Also, from the video of the top of the WTC hitting the street it looked like the Marriott was crushed but it may have been another building.
Was also wondering if the 2 employees were found alive.
Thanks
The several members of Ladder 118 that were recently found were, as I understand, gathered in what was the lobby of the Marriott.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The corner lobby of 1 WTC was the fire command center during the events. The entrance for the Marriot was right next door.
I stayed in the WTC Marriott two days before 9/11 (for the Hoboken Festival, "V" train test, 207 yard tour, etc.). As a frequent sleeper there, I got a form letter from Marriott management saying that the WTC Marriott was gone, but everyone got out OK. They also said that the Marriott Financial Center, two blocks south was still standing, but questionable structually -- and that no decision had been made on its fate.
Funny, I got charged for my last stay there (the charging mechanism to AMEX is good), but I never got my Marriott Rewards Points (the crediting mechanism isn't so good!).
I've walked past the other Marriott. It's no longer in the fenced off area. I can't imagine any structural damage. That may be a code word for asbestos-laden dust and a weak economy that doesn't justify the clean-up.
I've walked past the other Marriott. It's no longer in the fenced off area. I can't imagine any structural damage. That may be a code word for asbestos-laden dust and a weak economy that doesn't justify the clean-up.
The Marriott Financial Center should be reopening either today or tomorrow.
I just checked the Marriott Web site, and it offers a room at the Marriott WFC for tonight for $189. Congratulations Marriott for reopening!
When the south tower collapsed, the Marriott Hotel was basically destroyed. There were people inside, I believe all were rescue workers.
According to the NY Times website, "Large girders added to the hotel's structure after the bombing of the trade towers in 1993 saved the lives of a number of people in the lobby."
There are some extensive interactive graphics about the disaster if you click here.
(You may need to register for to use this section of the NYTimes website, but it is worth it, and they don't SPAM you if you don't want it.
Another interesting link I found with a web search is HERE. I can't verify whether or not this link is factual, and I don't know the owner...
Hope this helps.
Sorry, but when WTC 2 collapsed, I saw on video chunks of that building falling onto the hotel starting to crush parts of it. WTC 1 which was a bit of a closer distance to the hotel finished it off. I STILL cant believe that the whole complex is gone--even the wide plaza with the fountain and that nice structure in the middle of the fountain. So many of us remember the entire WTC complex as it was. But what utter devastation is there--I feel SO ODD posting my disbelief over 3 months after what had happened..................
I agree completely. Sometimes it just seems like a bad dream, even now 3 months later. It is so unbelievable. I always said nothing phases New Yorkers, meaning that almost anything can happen in NY and most people won't even be suprised. This horrible event proved me wrong.
There's the huge emptiness where WTC was. It seems all the buildings that were partially standing have been demolished. There just such an expanse of space there now. I was down there today, on Broadway and the wind was whipping through because there's no buildings there. The smell is finally gone it seems, I did not smell anything on Broadway or in the vicinity subways.
The ramps were there, but to tell you the truth I've seen enough, it's just a sad reminder of what happened almost 4 months ago.
You are totally correct. I was there about 2 weeks ago and it is so different than the last time I was there (end of September). I'm amazed at the progress they have made.
-I feel SO ODD posting my disbelief over 3 months after what had happened..................
You shouldn't feel strange about still having disbelief over the attack. I always felt a great sense of security and pride when I would look up at the skyline and see those magnificent buildings standing there overlooking the gateway to New York. It is hard to believe that something that gave such pride can be gone in such a devastating way.
I still get angry when I find another place in NYC that I used to be able to look up and see those towers in the distance. It will take a long time for people to find a way to "get over" the trauma of watching 3000 people perish, and have our skyline taken from us. Restoring some sense of normalcy by redeveloping the area - even if it is nothing but grass - will help bring some sort of closure to the attacks. I hope...
The really sick part is sometimes I can't tell if a photo is NY or not. There was a commercial on a few hours ago that showed a boat in the harbor. I didn't immediately recognize it as New York!!!!!!! Sick! Now that some new commercials and Hollywood stuff is starting to come out, more and more of the new New York is being shown. From some angles of the skyline, when shown fast, it is not immediately noticable to realize it's NY. No one has had that problem since before the WTC was there, and especially now that alot of cities have 50 and 60 story buildings.
In my humble opinion, the Multi's were the fastest - and perhaps the best - rapid transit (and they were RAPID!) cars ever built - anywhere. My high school, St. Agnes, was located at 44th and 3rd Avenue in Manhattan; my home in Cambria Heights in eastern Queens, necessitating a daily bus and subway ride. Remembering the Multi's from the childhood days, almost daily I'd go out of my way to ride them on the Eastern Division lines. When I did this, my Mom would continually chastise me for coming home late. But, in all honesty, the chastising was worth it - and continued until I graduated. They were hot rods - period. Inside the cars, there were signs "suggesting" riders hold on at all times. As I remember, there was no railfan window - the cab was full width - just a slit you could see through a bit. But their speedy performance was beyond description. Every trip was an exhilarating experience, much like riding the Cyclone in Coney Island, and I’ve always felt privileged to have experienced the Multis time and time again. And they had an operating sound unlike any other electric car, which was difficult to describe, however. I was fortunate enough to be aboard the farewell fantrip in 1961, but very saddened after learning all of these cars had been scrapped. In my next life, top on my wish list will be a Multi ride southbound down Central Park West......
Of course the Multi's were "hot rods", you had a MU with a lighter weight than the steel dinosaurs, and the signs telling people to hold on were there because those great cars could move and stop on a dime. The Multi's were even light enough to travel on un-rebuilt portions of the Fulton El.
One of the biggest tradegies of the subway were the scrapping of the Multi, Bluebird, and the Green Hornet. It is a shame that not one example of these wonderful cars were saved.
Yeah, they could stop on the dime....just bring along a few
rolls and keep on throwing them in front of the train until
it stopped :)
Now now Unca Jeff ... the Multis COULD stop on a dime. Unfortunately the dime was in the dispatcher's pocket in the wayside tower.
Even more of a tragedy was the city's canceling the Bluebird order. They had to take the first five (of 50) production units which were already being built, but the rest of the order was canceled in 1940 when the city took over the BMT. Had the order not been canceled, they may well have found a reason to modify the West end of the Myrtle Ave. El to accommodate 10' wide cars in the 1950s. And, perhaps, rush hour West End and Culver trains could have operated all the way to Coney Island.
The six Bluebirds (prototype plus 5 production units) did run on the 14th St - Canarsie line until the early 50s and were scrapped before 1960. Does anyone know if they ever ran revenue service on any other lines? Did they ever run on the 14th St - Fulton St rush hour express?
-- Ed Sachs
In "Subway Cars of the BMT" there is a picture of it running on the Brighton local, if I remember right, it was a Brighton-Franklin (#7).
eBay Item 1057189372, closes in less than a day, about 330pm New York time......
And the Bank of America closes at 3:00 pm NYT every day....your point being....?????
Does anyone have a phone number for either of the open transit museum stores [or both]?
thanks
THe Store in GCT: 212 - 878 - 0106.
you be a good man. thanks
As many of us know, there is an excellent website out there on NYC and the odd and forgotten things that abound within it. For those of you who haven't heard of Forgotten NY, i strongly suggest you check it out. Its an excellent site, and the webmaster (Kevin Walsh) is a frequent poster. Check out this week's update on the Croton!
WWW.FORGOTTEN-NY.COM
There is also another excellent web site: www.oldnyc.com
I am also a HUGE "Forgotten Fan." You can check out one of my photos about 1/4 of the way down this page on Forgotten-ny.com. Kevin deserves boucou kudos for this great site. :O)
Oops. I navigated to a bogus Home page in Forgotten-ny.com. Here is the right link for Kevin's index page.
Earlier today, on airliners.net, I posted a link to Kevin's piece on Flushing Airport. That's probably generate quite a few hits, as airliners.net has 10,000 registered users. Oh. Make that 9,999. Charles Bishop ("Tropical Flyer") had been a user.
Are there any retired signalmen out there who worked for the electrical dept (M.O.W.) in the 60 thru the 90s. I would like to hear from them.
Might want to ask over on Harry's place ... I *know* there's some old timey tower and signal guys that drop in over there pretty often ...
Are they really running until 9:30 at night? Is this for drop outs or do they run it as an evening service? My guess is the latter because the reason it terminates at 9th Avenue middays is because of the ongoing signal work on the West End, which is why they don't run it with the W during those times.
I wonder why they don't run the M or W express when the M runs with the W. When is the last time they ran express service on the West End. It shouldn't bottleneck the line because the M ends at Bay Parkway anyway. Does the M terminate on the center track at Bay Pkwy.
Probably not enough cars and the people at the local stations would complain. Run the M express and no one will use it.
Few use it as is. The M remains relatively empty in the AM until it reaches Pacific St.
GP: The M relays on the center track south of Bay Parkway. There are no switches north of the station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks
The last 8 M arrivals at Bay Parkway lay up from there. The last one is scheduled to leave Metropolitan Avenue at 9:04 PM and arrive at Bay Parkway at 10:14 PM. The last train to return from Bay Parkway to Metropolitan Avenue is scheduled to arrive at Bay Parkway at 8:36-1/2 PM and leave there at 8:51 PM.
David
So after the 8:51 passes Myrtle-Broadway, they start the shuttle, or are ther some 9th Ave trains?
That is correct. The M goes right from its full length to a shuttle -- no short-turns in-between.
David
The first shuttle from Metropolitan leaves at 9:16 PM. That train is the leader of the 8:51 from Bay Pkwy when it returns from Bway/Myrtle. The second shuttle from Met returns from Bway Myrtle just 2 minutes after the 8:51 passes Bway/Myrtle. So if the 8:51 is more than 2 minutes late, the second shuttle is in the lead. So there is a slight overlap coming north with 4 trains in fairly rapid succession, considering it is the M line!
FYI, the last through "M"'s pass at Fulton St. at 2133.
Close. Last northbound (to Metropolitan) is supposed to leave Chambers Street (the stop north of Fulton) at 9:33 PM; the last southbound (to Bay Parkway) is supposed to leave Chambers Street at 9:32-1/2 PM. Assuming they're on-time to the second (sure!), passengers on the northbound train coming into Chambers Street should see the southbound train leave.
David
Do you have the PUT-IN times at Bay Pkwy in the AM and PM Rush?
Yes, I do. Thanks for asking :-)
Put-ins are scheduled to leave Bay Parkway (weekdays only) at:
6:29-1/2, 6:44-1/2, 6:54-1/2, 7:04-1/2, 7:14-1/2, 7:23-1/2, 7:32, 7:46 AM; 3:17-1/2, 3:30, 3:39-1/2, 3:48-1/2 PM
David
Thanks. Do you have the ones at Met. Sta.?
Yes, I do.
David
M put-ins are scheduled to leave Metropolitan Avenue (weekdays) at:
5:46 AM (to Broad Street)
6:00 (shuttle)
6:13 (shuttle)
6:19 (to Bay Parkway, continuing with...)
6:41
7:00-1/2
7:29
7:47-1/2
5:53-1/2 PM
David
The signal work is mostly complete, so that is not the reason. All target-type signals are in place, and most of the trip boxes are in place as well. The new signals and the 1917 vintage signals are working in tandem.
Some 1917 era signals, deactivated for many months, still remain wayside. They are taped and/or boarded up, with large red X's spray painted on them.
hey i would like to know the differences between R26/28/29/33/36 Mainline cars i dont see much physical difference between the two. Tell the differences if you can .
The doors and windows on the R-36's are different from the R-26, 28 and 29.
He's talking about MAINLINE R-36s (as opposed to World's Fair R-36s), and no, there aren't very many cosmetic differences among IRT car classes from R-26 to R-36 excluding the World's Fair cars.
David
Look @ and/or memorize the numbers or memorize what runs where.
Up until the GOH, the differences in the R-26/28s, with their salmon pink color scheme for the seats and (until the MTA corporate colors were added) their olive drab exteriors made them easy to distinguish from the R-29/33/36 main line trains, which were painted bright red and had the gray plastic seats (I believe the floor tile pattern was also different on the R-26/28s compared with the R-29/33/36s).
As far as the R-29/33/36 differences, The exterior number plates on the R-29s were placed higher up on the car body than on the R-33/36s. And as far as telling the R-33 and R-36 MLs apart, good luck...
One difference that sets apart the R36ML from the R26/28/29/33 is the interior lighting. The R36ML has three rows of lighting in the ceiling, one long row on each side. The third row consist of lights on either side of the air conditioning vents. Basically, the R36ML retained their original "post 1979-80 air conditioning" ceiling configuration during the GOH of the '80s..
The R26-33 only only has one long row of lights on either side of the ceiling, no lights in the middle.
Also, the difference between the R26/28/29s and the R33s is in the ceiling. On the majority of the R33s, during the GOH of the '80s and '90s, when they removed the light fixtures that were in the middle of the ceiling, they were replace with a thin, flat metal slab with exposed screws. On the R26/28/29s, the lights were replace by also by a metal piece, but this piece is folded over on the sides with no exposed screws.
Also, the R26/28/29s ceilings were painted beige as opposed to the R33s ceilings being painted white.
After 10 days of traveling in the southeast and midwest, I have returned! -Nick
At least one additional pair has been transferred to the 4 from the 2/5. Let's welcome 8856-57, on the road today, Brooklyn-Bound.
-Stef
And welcome the FISHIES to their new home really soon. CI Peter
Stef:
Likely a replacement for 9236/9237. The 4 needs all the cars it can get.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
what happened
Yes, there's been some attrition on the #4 over the years (1435-6-7-9-40; 1366-7-8-9-70 etc.)
Are they planning to put the 6300s that are at Concourse on the #4? And what about the 6400 series? Whatever happened to them?
wayne
Those 6300 and 6400 series cars are intended for the 2 Line. Unfortunately, they're sidelined with mechanical problems and needed to find a place to be stored.
Speaking of R-62s, A SubTalker (who I think is a reliable source) tipped me off on a bit of news. 1369 resides alone at Concourse Yard. Her mates, if I hear correctly, are scheduled to be repaired and returned to service at a future time. What will replace 1369? 1436! 10 Years in the making.....
-Stef
Another Odd Couple in the making?:-)
Hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds.
Unless the 7 still has them this fall, I may never get to say that again.
I wouldn't consign all the Redbirds to the deep just yet, Steve. Methinks they'll still be out in some numbers come late October, and not just on the #7.
wayne
I hope so.
I re-scanned my 33rd St area layout showing the sealed up passage. I even printed over some of the handwriting, but that still is hard to read when shrunk down to 470 X 650. If you view the page (full size), it is quite clear. (New scanner I got for Christmas along with new system. Now, I begin the project of OCR scanning the R-46 codes (40 pages). But I will need permission before I can post those).
The yellow lines denote where barriers can be put up to bring the passage into fare control, to make it easier to keep the homeless out. But now, since they have built a moving walkway at Court Sq., this is what I will be urging them to place here to keep the homeless from sleeping and hanging around there. Still, the problem will be which agency (NYCT, Mall owner, Penn Sta. etc) would take responsibility for it and pay to install it. (I read the Court Sq. one cost 5 million). Perhaps motivate Penn station and its railroads and retailers, since they would gretly benefit from an indoor connection from the 6th Av, Bway and Path lines.
Nice map. Interestingly, the MTA's neighborhood map shows the two stairways on the north and south sides of 33rd St. as open but they are most definitely closed.
What are the MTA neighborhood maps? I haven't ever seen any of these.
David
The big maps on the walls of the stations that show the surrounding neighborhood. They are normally near the token booth or Metrocard machine.
And they're also available as PDF files on the MTA web site.
Would you mind saying where?
I've looked under Maps, and under Neighborhoods on the MTA site and can't find them.
I can't find them now either. Oh well.
They were there. I guess they took them off. Probably terrorist related.
Was this the link you're looking for?
"MTA - Disability Access"
That's them! Definitely hidden on the MTA site.
I remember seeing this passage, but it was barred off.
The term I heard it referred to was 'Gimbel's Alley'. Anyone else remember hearing this?
I go back far enough to remember Gimbel's basement, and the fact it actually had *two* basements. The lower one had bed-linen and the such, as I recall. Korvette's was already closed by the time I go to New York, but do remember them stripping off all the marble to reveal the old facade, before turning it into that tacky tacky mall (something only Imelda Marcos would think of as nice, which might be why she invested it it).
Would be great for this to be reopened. One minor disadvantage, and not at all a reason to not do it: right now it's possible to exit from Penn Station onto the east side of 7th Ave, without paying a subway fare, using the route under 7th Ave that would now come under fare control. Very useful since 7th Ave is a pain to cross.
It really does not add too much to the system
It really does not add too much to the system
Are you KIDDING? A *ton* of people take the Sixth Avenue IND, Broadway BMT and PATH to get to Penn Station, me included. Having to walk a block above ground in the crowds, the traffic and the lousy weather is really irksome when I know there's an intact underground passageway.
Bring back the Penn Station passageway ....
BRING BACK the Penn Station passageway!
BRING BACK THE PENN STATION PASSAGEWAY ! ! !
I agree. That passageway was heavily travelled when it was open in the past, especially during inclement weather. Too bad it had to be closed because of a few bad apples.
My first view of the homeless was in that passage 30 years ago when there was no major homeless problem, that will be a hotel now.
The only time I saw a flasher was in that tunnel.
I loved that tunnel and the 40th-35th st tunnel on the other side BUT
Some street awnings might be a cheaper and safer solution.
BESIDES what does it add to fare control?
PATH to Penn Sation? They deserve to get wet.
The call was for bringing it to fare control.
PATH to Penn Sation? They deserve to get wet.
Well, OK, maybe not PATH.
The call was for bringing it to fare control.
Which I'd be fine with ... no reason for anyone FROM Penn to use it unless they're heading to the subway. It's a transit amenity, not a public amenity.
Putting it in fare control would be a good thing. It would add a transfer between the 6th Avenue and 7th Avenue lines -- the ones at 14 and 59 are local-only on one line or the other (and the transfer at 14 is simply painful).
The one at 33rd can't be much easier than the one at 14th. Admittedly, at 14th you have to go downstairs from the F to the L and then back up a flight, but other than that the distance at 33rd will be identical.
That's my major beef with the passageway at 14: up, down, up, long walk, down. Also, a new passageway could be wider, with room for a moving walkway in each direction. And, as I mentioned, 14 is a local stop on 6th Avenue; 34 is express on both 6th and 7th.
You have one extra preposition in there. From F to 1/2/3 at 14th is actually down, up, long walk, down.
At 33rd it would be up, long walk, up, or one less flight of stairs than at 14th.
I thought the passageway was under 32nd St. I think I remember (this was 20+ years ago, so I must be mistaken) exiting this passageway and being on 32nd St. just east of 7th Ave.
Bob you are correct----its DEFINITELY 32ND STREET.
Many years ago the accounting firm I worked for had a client in 1250 Broadway which was on the east side of Broadway and ran the block from 31st to 32nd.
The firm had the client from at least 1975 when I started there until about 1980-81. I used to take the LIRR from Suffolk County to Penn. Usually I walked above ground because of the skells that inhabited the tunnel. It was also interesting the the paydays in the factorys were either Tuesday or Fridays because that was the only days the THREE CARD MONTY guys worked 32nd Street.
I only used the tunnel during inclement or very cold weather since the element was lousy down there and also I remember that there were leaks in either the walls and/or the ceiling because there were always puddles (of water) the entire length on rainy days.
Can't be 32nd St. The entrance to the PATH in Greeley Square (cor. of 32nd & 6th) on the north side of 32nd. If you go down there, and then along the corridor toward 34th St. you pass the entrance to the passageway on the left which would be about the south side of 33rd St.
But I do remember exiting onto 32nd St about where the Odd Lot (or is it Job Lot or ???) store is now.
Maybe ODD-JOB?
Although I haven't been back to that area in a long time, I remember exiting 1250 Broadway, crossing 32nd and entering the system from the N/E corner of 32 & Bway. When you went down the first set of steps there was a cut-rate barbershop there. You then made a turn and went down another set of steps to the mezzanine. Although I walked a short distance to the passageway I don't recall it being one block long. Also when exiting into Penn Station I think it was to the right or left of the main staircase/escalator under the MSG canopy at 32nd & 7th.
there were IIRC TWO different passageways.
One which was next to the basement of Gimbels. The passage was north of the Gimbels and my first reccolection of a 'bag lady' was an old woman who camped in a Gimbels doorway. The passage went to the IRT station IIRC.
I also remember a passgeway which started in the basement of the building on the north side of 32 near where 'Minifilm' was. You entered the building and went down the stairs to the passage which took you to Sixth.
I also remember a passgeway which started in the basement of the building on the north side of 32 near where 'Minifilm' was. You entered the building and went down the stairs to the passage which took you to Sixth.
That's probably the one I'm thinking of.
question please ...just for the info etc.. Is this the station 'U'..'R' talkin' bout' here ?? ...lol !!
LOL !!
Nice picture!
thankz... it was just an experement ..1999...
is this the 33rd st station everyone is talkin' bout' here ??
lol !!
Nope. 34St Herald Square on the BDFVQWNR linking to 34th Penn Station 1/9.
Where the heck is that photo from? Is it even in NYC?
33rd Street PATH station.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks. One of these days I need to take a PATH trip. This is the second time I've been clueless about some PATH information on a thread. I must lose my PATH virginity. Does anyone know if this is an enjoyable process, or should I just read a book about it? :-)
It's a cute little railroad. Clean, orderly, but crowded during rush hours. I highly advise it as a railfan trip. Be careful about taking pictures though, they're freaky.
You can read up on it HERE.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks Andee. I'll have to do a trip.
JR
> Be careful about taking pictures though,they're freaky.
They really are these days...
I think it was in November. A friend of mine and I were going to railfan on the Newark Subway to see the new cars. On the way going we were shooting PATH on our miniDV camcorder and were told by the T/O to stop the camcorder. It's almost like France or Spain in the 70s.
> Be careful about taking pictures though,they're freaky.
They really are these days...
Well, the PA took a biiiiiiiig hit four months ago. Understandable that they're jittery. And may be for a while ....
A permit is required for photography on PATH and that's clearly listed in the rules posted at the stations. (Well, if you can find them. They were pretty easy to find at WTC, but I couldn't tell you exactly where to look at the other stations.)
I didn't know that. I have a few nice shots of PATH from around 1994 at the WTC station. They were the only ones I ever took there. I didn't realize at the time how happy I would be one day that I took them.
Correction: if this is the PATH, then it is part of the station in the diagram.
Yes, This is the PATH station at the bottom of the image. The mall and the passage are to the immediate north (up) and then left.
It has always puzzled me. What was the original intent of Lower 42st on the A. Was it there since the beginning? The tiles look more like the Liberty to Euclid tiles in Brooklyn, so it looks like it was completed later than the 8th Ave line. Aqueduct couldn't have been the real intent, because when 8th Ave was built the LIRR still ran the Rockaway line. Why was it built and when was it used.
Well, for starters, you can read up on the station here. Then, for more information, go here. Amazing what you can find if you look in the Subway FAQ on this site, isn't it? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If Joe Brennan doesn't know, then I don't know who does. I don't buy that story about Hylan blocking the IRT.
The most logical explanation to me is that it was constructed to allow crowded E trains from Queens to run to 42nd St without having to wait to merge with the CC line. I guess they figured 42nd St. to be the most important stop on the 8th Ave IND.
Hylan was very much anti-BRT/BMT. That much should be well known to all of us.
Hylan was very much anti-BRT/BMT. That much should be well known to all of us.
Yes, but the 7 train was IRT ...
I think he was anti-IRT also.
Hylan was anti-private-interest mass transit. He probably didn't like the IRT because it had worked with the BRT/BMT on the Tribouough and Dual Projects with NYC. And
Then Mayor Hylan supposely ordered the lower level built at 42 St/8 Ave to prevent the IRT Queensboro line from extending their line to 11 Ave and/or the Hudson River.
As far as I know, the only time the lower level was used for customer service was for Aqueduct specials.
Then Mayor Hylan supposely ordered the lower level built at 42 St/8 Ave to prevent the IRT Queensboro line from extending their line to 11 Ave and/or the Hudson River.
Another urban legend, in this case one we've already debunked on this board. Todd Glickman has measured platform heights using a special barometric watch (or some such) that he has and determined that there would be no interference - the IRT (7) line would still pass beneath the IND platform.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's correct, Anon_e. (By the way, it's a CASIO dual-sensor, with thermometer and altimeter/pressure sensor... just what every meteorologist needs!)
Interested readers can look at the line-by-line sections of the site to see the relative depths of the platforms.
Todd & Anon_e: And THIS kinda stuff, before 8 am even, is why I keep coming back to SubTalk! Cool work.
I'm actually relieved to learn that if they extend the 7 westward that it will NOT destroy the lower level of 42nd Street. I tend to believe strongly in keeping these little artifacts. You never know when you're gonna need 'em one day ....
Even if they only use it to filmn movies, etc. Things like these are what make the subway interesting.
The track to this platform has been severed permanently. It will never be used for any other purpose again.
That's too bad. I guess it's good they filmed "Ghost" when they did!
Severed How? The tracks are still there. New stairways can be built.
I think the track connections have been severed. I don't thinks can access the platform anymore. Can anyone verify this?
Last I heard (on this board) the track was embargoed but not severed. The switches are spiked but are still in place (at least one of them is).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Last I heard (on this board) the track was embargoed but not severed. The switches are spiked but are still in place (at least one of them is).
The track is indeed still in place, but officially out of service and switches are clamped accordingly. I dont' know if there's still third-rail power down there or if the signals are still lit. I somehow doubt I'll ever know the answer to that one, either.
Of course, should they ever dicide to re-activate D3 I don't think it would be too much trouble. Considering what they're about to do on the IRT in lower Manhattan within a few months, renewing a few thousand feet of mostly straight track and two switches is trivial. Staircases a little less so, but nothing too difficult.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
I agree with Peter. The tracks and switches are still in place, just not Revenue ready.
Cosmetic work is necessary if the LL platform were to be re-actvated.
The switches are still in place, though made in-operable.
For the sake of fantasy, a diamond cross-over should be installed between the 8th Ave local track and lower level track serving 50th and 42nd and a second diamond crossover between the lower level track serving 50th and 42nd and the 8th Ave express track.
This would give that needed flexibility when the "A" should go local or the "C" should go express from 42nd St. south to 23rd or Canal.
I'd favor rush hour use for the "E" and layup (2 trains) during extremely cold weather. An additional escalater to the mezzanine would aid those P.A. Bus users.
avid
There was an escalator from the mezzanine to the lower level. It was in the extreme southwest corner of the mezzanine at 40th St. Sometimes it would be running on Saturday mornings, sometimes it would be off. AFAIK it's still in place, but the area where it originates has been walled off. Apparently the mezzanine extends beyond the tunnel entrance on the south end because the escalator doesn't cut through the active southbound platform. You can see it if you look to the right on a southbound A train just after it enters the tunnel.
No, its not that far south. It right next to the last usable stair way to the platform. It is all walled in as it passes for the lower level, through the upper leve. This to prevent subwaysurfers from taking shortcuts. Check the doors to this walled off area. Signs reading "ELEVATOR DEPT."
From Peters photos the escalators look as if they've been cannibalized for parts.
I beleive there were two escalators. I'm basing this guess on Peters photos.
Now that you mention it, that escalator was very close to the southernmost staircase to the platform. I became intimately familiar with the 42nd St. mezzanine during the three years I was a Saturday commuter, and used that very staircase all the time. There used to be "Entrance to Aqueduct Specials at 40th Street" signs all along the mezzanine, and another sign marked, "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special" with an arrow pointing to the escalator. It was fenced off on Saturday mornings, and I alwayd had the impression it was abandoned.
I also remember when the northern end of the lower level was used as an underpass between both active platforms. In those days, the middle of the mezzanine was outside the paid fare zone. We were headed uptown once and accidentally went through the turnstiles to the downtown platform. I remembered the underpass and led our group to the northern end of the platform as an E train of R-38s departed on the express track. We went down the stairs and then I saw the track and platform through the chain link fence they had rigged up. It felt like a twilight zone and gave me the creeps.
Yes , there was a stairway down to the lower level from the upper level platform there too! It was sealed up about three of four years ago. I think they laid corragated metal across the top and poured concret. If needed again, it could be restored. The ceiling above shows the strutureral outline for a stairway that was either closed or never used. From what the ceiling shows and the platform reveals from the slightly different concret, a strairway from the mezzanine to the upper level platform, walk around to the back of the stairs and desend to the lower level. A lot of stations had preplanned positions for additional stairways.
If and when the tile is laid on the upper level platform, traces of the stairs to the lower level will be lost to the casual eye.
This may be a Kodak Moment to capture if the new tile floor has not been laid yet.
As of last August, I changed my pattern of commuting, so I rarely get to 42nd St. on the 8th Ave line. Back then rehab work was beginning to get ready for new wall tile, floor tile and what ever else was contracted for. On the Mezzanine there was a babe that painted herself light blue with a sprinkle of sparkle dust. She stood motionless like a statue, then would move slightly. Anyone else see the BLUE MAIDEN?
Now, with station re-hab and renovation a lot of stairs have been removed. 14th street comes to mind as one victim of stair lose.
Sounds like a genetic malady. Stair lose.
avid
Now, with station re-hab and renovation a lot of stairs have been removed. 14th street comes to mind as one victim of stair loss.
Yeah, why is this? Why do they remove stairways? How much maintenance can it possibly take for an indoors concrete stairway?
It's not a maintenance issue. It's a space issue. The mezzanines are reused. They go from open space for passenger use to some department that needs office or storage space, sometimes Police station use.
Its a security issue, less area to cover, less things to hide behind. It keeps the passengers in a smaller area.
One bad effect of stairloss is the elimination of channels for air flow. During the summer the stations have become hotter. Large volumns of air once flowed up those stairs.
avid
I used that underpass in 1985ish. Very dark, smelly and full of rats.
Ah, yes---the rats! Now they have that entire level to themselves and, if the station is the same as it was back in the 1970's and 1980's, have plenty of food on which to feast since there was always a TON of trash thrown in and around the collection bins. The closet areas on the side of the platform were holding areas for all the trash generated throughout the entire 42nd St.subway complex. Maintenance guys would tell me horror stories of the rats getting in to the electrical areas and gnawing on the wires as if they were sticks of licorice. I know, I know--I did a post on rats not too long ago, but after all I'm Tunnel Rat!
The old timers here on ST may well remember Smelly Kelly, the Depression-Era smell-detecting sleuth of the subways. A legend among the many men of subway lore, he and his super-sensitive sniffer were often employed to detect strong scents and odors in the tunnels that often-times spelled serious danger. Many gas and chemical leaks were located and remedied thanks to Kelly and his reliance on special instruments and yes, seriously, his schnozz. He also was able to discern if a stinky stench was harmful or not simply by nose thus preventing needless time and expense in the course of remedial action. An example of the more "benign" odors found were those of decaying dead rats. There were countless times when the general public would mistake the malodor of rat with a more malevolent source.
There was a book written years ago that devoted many pages to Smelly Kelly. I don't recall the title, but it told of many aspects of NYC underground. As a young man, I recall taking this book out of the NY Public Library quite often. The above is from what I remembered reading in said book and also from my father, who worked as a top-level maintenance man for the TA for 40 years plus.
Does any ST'er know the title/author of the book?
Tunnel Rat
There was a book written years ago that devoted many pages to Smelly Kelly. I don't recall the title, but it told of many aspects of NYC underground. As a young man, I recall taking this book out of the NY Public Library quite often. The above is from what I remembered reading in said book ... Does any ST'er know the title/author of the book?
I've got it at home. I'll look it up this evening.
Grey cover, got mine for 25 cents from a library sale. Best quarter I ever spent. Written about 1960.
If you could, I'd be most appreciative.
It's "The World Beneath the City," by Robert Daley. Mine was a first edition published in 1959. Amazon knows about it and will offer you a link to buy it used. Hope this helps.
The mezzanine had been fully incorporated into the paid fare zone by 1988 at least; I used 42nd St. quite a bit during the week I was in the city after my sister's wedding and stayed at the Travel Inn Motor Hotel.
Didn't see any rats on the lower level in 1968; at that time, Aqueduct Specials were still using it.
I was under the impression the track's switches were removed. My bad.
I think the track is still in use. Once in a while I listen to my scanner at work and the IND Train Master talks about putting work trains on the lower level.
That would be good to here.
The switches just north of 34th St. are still there.
Under the regular IND platform or the lower level IND platform?
Under everything.
Here's the story.
The upper level of the IND is about 30 feet deep; lower level 45 feet deep; #7 IRT 60 feet deep. Even if the measurements are off by ten feet, there's still plenty of room to make a small dip under.
Under everything.
Here's the story.
The upper level of the IND is about 30 feet deep; lower level 45 feet deep; #7 IRT 60 feet deep. Even if the measurements are off by ten feet, there's still plenty of room to make a small dip under.
Hi Folks,
Well, I'm afraid I have to disagree with this depth issue at Lower 42nd. I remember when this discussion raged here on this site about a year ago. I wrote to a TA contact I had at that time and he did some investigation with various departments within the TA.
The upshot of it is that the stations are very close in relative depths. I quote from my source:
The results were the platform at D3 at 42 Street is 41 feet six inches below street level (not sidewalk level). Add 4 feet to track level, another couple of feet for support structure below. Times Square platform is 49 feet below street level.
This latter number I independently verified against the emergency exit locations. The emergency exit on W41 St, 490 feet east of TSq, between Broadway and 6 Ave is 52 feet from the sidewalk to the "tracks." (It's 177 feet west of 6 Ave.) For the sake of comparison, emergency exits on 8th Ave at 47th St and at 37 St are 24 to 26 feet deep. The exit at 55 St which also services the lower level (ABCD) comes in at 47 feet.
So it looks like the Hylan theory might still have a bit of life left in it < grin >.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
If you assume one set of tracks has to be 16' below another (25 steps - that seems about typical in actual practice), then the #7 needs to drop down another 8.5' between the west end of the Times Square Station (roughly mid-block between 7th and 8th Aves.) and 8th Ave.
That's a drop of 8.5' in a length of 500', or under 2% grade. That shouldn't be a problem, should it?
Given the grade of the Steinway tunnel east of Grand Central, a drop like that wouldn't be any problem.
The trouble west of Eighth Ave. would be deciding what to do about getting the IRT tunnel extension either around, over or under the Lincoln Tunnel entry tubes and access ramps in order for it to reach the Javits Center at 34th St. and 11th Ave.
Always good to have better data. Thanks, Peter!
Very Interesting. The lower level platform was built along with the rest of the station in 1932, but it was only used from 1959 to 1981 for odd services like the Aqueduct Racetrack special fare trains, and for rush hour E trains for a period during the 1970s.
So basically the lower level was abandoned for 27 years already when it was built. I guess this is why the tiles look like the tiles from Liberty to Euclid. Were the tiles only installed around 1959?
The platform had no wall tiles and was unused until the Aquaduct specials were started in the late 1950's. Even after these trains were eliminated, the platform was used by E trains in the AM rush hours.
The E used the lower level station in PM rush as well, when the line ran express in the early 1970s to Canal and then continued on to Brooklyn, while the AA ran as Eighth Ave. local to Chambers-WTC.
The AA did not run during rush hours; the CC took its place along 8th Ave. to Chambers-WTC.
Why? southbound E's coming off 53rd St. hardly had the need to avoid a potential merging delay north of 42nd. St.
I suppose it was to avoid slowing down the A coming south out of 59th St. Both the A and E could enter 42nd at the same time on different levels, instead of possibly having to hold the A at 59th and delaying any southbound D trains behind it (though you would think there would be enough space between 50th and 59th Sts. to hold the A if a southbound E express was in front of it).
If memory serves the lower level of the 42 Street Station was featured in the movie "Ghost."
Larry,RedbirdR33
It was featured in Ghost in a few scenes. The scene where the other ghost is teaching Patrick Swayze how to move things showed the station very clear. Until this site, I always thought they dressed some other station up as 42 St, because it was a wall platform, and the tiles seemed wierd (I thought it was fake), but I never thought that the tiles were like Euclid. It drove me crazy because a real train goes through, so I knew it was a real station, but I couldn't figure out where. When I found this site I relized 42 had an abandoned lower level.
<<<"Until this site, I always thought they dressed some other station up as 42 St, because it was a wall platform, and the tiles seemed wierd (I thought it was fake), but I never thought that the tiles were like Euclid. It drove me crazy because a real train goes through, so I knew it was a real station, but I couldn't figure out where. When I found this site I relized 42 had an abandoned lower level.">>>
My thoughts had been the same- I noticed the very real R32 (signed as the "4" on the car ends) passing through a station that sure as hell ddin't look like any 42nd Street Station I knew.
Then this site came along, and it suddenly clear to me...
Rush hour E trains also used the lower level in the early 70s.
DM: The lower level of 42 Street was used by southbound rush hour E trains from about the late 60's to middle 70's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The lower level had one escalator, it was removed this summer to allow the contractors to lower new ejectors. As far as I know all the staircases are still intact, only cemented over on the upper level. The crossover to the uptown side was converted into a electrical closet. For what no one seems to know.
The underpass was no longer needed after the entire mezzanine was incorporated into the paid fare zone.
I have no idea what an ejector is, but it must be a lot of fun compared to a boring escalator. Sounds like it would clear rush hour crowds in a hurry.
On the subject of this station does anyone know why the northbound and southbound platforms are not lined up with each other?
Each platform is wider, it takes up the width of two platforms without widening the total width of the line.
I was wondering..what's the TA position on photography in the subway these days?
I'd be particularly interested in hearing from any TA employees reading this, as well as anyone else who's taken a pic lately...
Would I be risking a fine and/or confiscation/destruction of my camera and/or film?
I just want a few photos of the "V" and "W" trains in action- I wouldn't enter any prohibited areas or cause any trouble at all....I shouldn't expect an problems, should I?
Thanks!!
The rules haven't changed and can be found in the faq. There's even a citation of where to look them up if you want an official copy to carry around.
That doesn't mean you might not find some misinformed people who would object to your taking pictures, so like you said, don't cause any trouble and you should be fine.
Thank You.
The guys in the crews interested in learning ask me what's new on the net. The guys on SubTalk ask me what's new on the rails. I caught the BSE postings...I'd like some help to start and share. Arigoto CI Peter
Do deska ... BVE beat SONY again ... it's the ultimate balm for a rail foamer though. Lets you get in the cab without being hauled off to the hoosegow ...
i was reading peter doughertys trackbook. Anyways i noticed Jamaica was (before 9/11/01) they would send 23 Es, 46 Fs in afternoon and 50 in the morning. 12 Gs and 22 Rs. what is it now? Do they carry All the Es? or do Es come from elsewhere? Also what are the numbers now?
All E's are from Jamaica.
All F's are from Jamaica as well, however some are stored in the Avenue X Yard in the Coney Island complex. Only 45 F trains run during the AM and PM.
All G's are from Jamaica.
All R's are from Jamaica, however some are stored in the relay track in Bay Ridge, as well as City Hall Yard and the 4th Avenue Express tracks south of 36th Street.
The G now come out of Coney Island Yard. They park three down under Chruch Ave. and the rest come from the CI Yard. All the Crew sign in at the yard and the one that have the Put In from Chruch Ave Dead Head to Chruch Ave.
Robert
I was wondering if that had really happened, but then I've seen a lot of G's deadheading through 7th Ave, so I was kinda thinking yes.
CI now has R46s?
For what I hope is the last time:
Subway cars are assigned to MAINTENANCE SHOPS, not to YARDS. The G fleet is assigned to JAMAICA MAINTENANCE SHOP, and evidently at least some of the trainsets used on the line are stored at CONEY ISLAND YARD. SHOP does not equal YARD, and YARD does not equal SHOP.
David
First of all, I am not a New Yorker. You need not get on my case because I didn't know something. Even though you might think someone on this board does, no one here knows everything. Secondly, where I am from, cars are maintained where they are stored for lay ups, etc. Often when I hear someone say this is out of (name of yard), that is what I think of.
Subway cars are assigned to MAINTENANCE SHOPS, not to YARDS. The G fleet is assigned to JAMAICA MAINTENANCE SHOP, and evidently at least some of the trainsets used on the line are stored at CONEY ISLAND YARD. SHOP does not equal YARD, and YARD does not equal SHOP.
I think it's been said enough times in enough threads that it's getting tedious to keep repeating.
First time I recall seeing it, too. Good to know.
David's posted that bit of information at least 3 seperate times over the the last few weeks. There are some threads that just keep repeating ad-nauseum. I tget's frustrating to keep repeating the same answers.
"It gets frustrating...." No question about that, TD. I guess it was in threads of titles that did not appear interesting to me.
Any word on the Jamaica yard expansion? We had to take trains to the yard from Parsons just to let the collector come in without slowing down the line.
Of course a 4th layup at PA-E would get rid of 2 switching jobs.
G trains MAY be stored there, but are still shopped in Queens. Coney does no work on R46's.
I believe the G still comes from Jamaica yard, and is still part of the Queens pic. After all, i still see Gs in jamaica yard, and they dead head on Queens blvd local tracks from 71av to queens plaza and just enter service at court aq. i see Gs all the time. they are not in service, but they are only 4 cars and the Motorman usually has the G sigh up already
The G is still serviced ("shopped") in Jamaica Shop, and some trains are stored in Jamaica Yard, and some are also stored in the Church Avenue Yard, and Coney Island Yard.
All G trains are SHOPPED/SERVICED in Jamaica Shop, but trains could be STORED elsewhere.
Sorry I am out of date with this. When the "G" was extended to 71st. Ave on weekends (and nights) at what time did the first one roll out of 71 on Sun 12-16 and when did the first 71 Av.-bound leave Smith 9th Sts.? If anyone remembers, please help. Thank you.
The new "G" timetable at the TA's site will answer your questions.
www.mta.info
Hi, but that does not work for me. I cannot deduce a specific interval for start up service from a timetable showing 24/2 weekend service. Sorry, but thanks for your input.
Sure you can, just think about the service change and the exact time it started and you will have your answer from the timetable.
Not if he doesn't know the exact time it started.
Let's go back to 7/22, the first day of the yellow Q. The service change officially took place at midnight -- yet I was standing at Stillwell the time (as were two other SubTalkers), where one or two D trains left after midnight. The timetables aren't sufficient (especially in this case, where presumably a supplement schedule was in effect since the Q was only running to 42 thanks to a reroute on the R).
Today's issue of 'Metro' featured the results of a poll of SEPTA Regional Rail riders regarding cell phone usage. Apparently only 39% of those polled think a quiet car is needed, while about 60% favor free use of phones on trains. As a compromise SEPTA offered a few suggestions of common courtesy to cell phone users (keep conversations low, put phones on low ring/vibrate, be considerate, etc).
In my very limited experience on the Regional Rail system, I haven't seen phone usage to be a big problem. In my very frequent experience on the transit side, it doesn't appear to be a significant problem either (those who use phones tend to keep their voices low). Is this just a Phila thing or what? Is the problem bigger than that I'm seeing? Apparently those who took the poll don't seem to think it's that big a deal either. ?
I haven't had a whole lot of problems with cell phones on any SEPTA vehicles. Occassionally I hear an annoying ring, but for the most part I don't see too much use going on, not enough to warrant quiet cars.
Mark
>>> Apparently only 39% of those polled think a quiet car is needed, while about 60% favor free use of phones on trains. <<<
From the threads here on Sub Talk last year regarding cell phones, you would get the impression that they were a major disturbance for those meditating in the silent monastery like atmosphere of the New York subways*. I believe it was really a case of handset envy. As more people get their own cell phones, and as users learn they do not have to shout to use them, they are becoming more acceptable.
Tom
*Sarcasm isn't worth using if you have to tell people you are using it.
I've heard that SEPTA is experiencing major problems on the Girard Ave/Route 15 rebuild with line poles. Many of the old cast iron poles are snapping/failing for no apparent reason. So many have failed that each pole to be reused is being closely examined to see if it has any life left. Of course, one must keep in mind that the poles are 80+ years old, but it seems odd that this is happening. The downside is that the new style pole, while metal (as opposed to the massive and ugly concrete pole used by SEPTA over the past 20 years), is not the most attractive pole in the world, and a little bit of history goes by the wayside when the old poles are removed. Some of those in West Phila date back to the days of the Hestonville, Mantua and Fairmount Railway, which was absorbed into the Phila Rapid Transit at the turn of the last century. THe HM & F pole caps were a distinctive spire and can be seen on many of the old poles on Lansdowne Ave (Route 10) as well as Girard.
SEPTA will probably find lots of deterioration of the tracks and overhead on Route 15 and other non-Subway-Surface lines because of literally decades of deferred maintenance. Even though Routes 23 and 56 are being kept intact, it's been ten years since the last trolleys ran in regular service (although parts of 23 still see occasional cars). Eventually, major street repairs or utility projects will press the issue of just how much SEPTA wants trolleys back on these routes. I recall how, when Route 60 was "temporarily bussed" in 1977, the line sat fallow for years until PennDot wanted to repave Allegheny Avenue - and the rails were covered over.
The reason the poles are failing is simple. Water, which gets into the pole at the butt (base), eventually corrodes the iron to point that it cannot suport the weight above and the pole fails. Added that neither PTC (in the later years) or SEPTA has not properly maintained the North Philadelphia system since its inception. Metal poles (iron and steel) should be scraped and painted about every 30 years in city street operations.
There is another way to preserve/re-use metal poles:
1. Cut the pole at the butt. (Usually poles fail at the butt.)
2. Weld a new steel section about 6 feet long to the pole.
3. Replant. Pole should, with proper maintenance, last 50 or more years.
Besides "Closing Door" which I previously mentioned, what other movies come to mind with scenes from the London Underground?
American Wherewolve In London
Quadrophenia, The Who's rock opera movie.
Heya,
Anyone wanna get together to check crap out on Marta? I am back to riding it everyday and actually got on a new train tonight! the blue and white is 10000000000000000000x better then the brady bunch woodgrain :)
trains seem to get up to speed quicker, tho I do not care for the ding dong dong ding
email me if you are interested, mebbe we could put something together...
mightyman@onebox.com
Thanks,
Allen
I sent to an email. You're right, the new trains are waaay better than, as i heard someone say, "the baby shit yellow cars." I see them all the time in service on every line.
U mean to tell me they still do the marta subeway.. DING DONG !! down there still ..........damn !!
& them suckers R loud !!! whew !!!
salaam... no pic? IM SHOCKED!!!!
sorry folks !!
LOL !!
hey
that pic, where is it from? those trains look way narrow... like even narrower then a redbird
allen
That's Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority's Blue Line (yes, even with yellow stripes, but that's the company colors....)
The cars are 8'6 feet wide, I believe -- slightly narrower than the IRT stock. I think their height (and the big "hole" under the cab with the coupler in it, plus the pantograph) makes them look even narrower.
that is the second paint scam from the original scam ...a repaint job was done on em ..
lol !!
Wouldn't it have been much nicer if they made the stripes on the new scheme BLUE for the Blue Line and Green for the Green Line and leave just the buses yellow....
>>> Wouldn't it have been much nicer if they made the stripes on the new scheme BLUE for the Blue Line and Green for the Green Line and leave just the buses yellow.... <<<
Different paint schemes would reduce the ability to move the LRV cars between lines. As it is now, they have moved quite a few cars from the Green Line to the Blue Line because of the increase of an additional car (three rather than two) on rush hour trains. They are putting the new Siemens cars on the Green Line. There was a period of time when cars with the blue paint and cars with the yellow paint ran intermixed on both lines, and it did not look good.
Tom
those are Shayro Light rail cars built in japan for the los angeles light rail systems known as the long beach blue line & the so called airport green line cars
repainted from thier original paint scam now in either white gold stripe & blue or green accent.. etc .. the power is picked up overhead etc... lol
PHOTO TAKEN BY ME SUMMER 2001
12 avenue at flower streets downtown lost angeles !! .......lol !!
Should have asked me last week! I had a layover at Hartsfield and ended up snowed in for 24 hours. I got to do a lot of riding, though.
Mark
Can anybody give my detailed instructions or point me to a place that does on how to operate the BVE trains? It seems different trains use different buttons and I am clueless. How do I get the EMG brake off on the commuter type train? What is the safe system. It's a great program but it seems without a decent guide to operate the trains it's useless.
I know z is accelerate, a is reduce speed (like a brake), > is brake release and / is brake but how do I stop the bells? Page up and page down do something in the commuter type train.
Please if anybody knows where to find decent instructions please let me know so I can start enjoying the BVE program. Thanks!
Piece of cake, bro ... one of THE definitive "how do I work this thing?" pages is here:
BVE HELPER
And how to DRIVE that puppy is right here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/control_drive.htm
The main site has every answer you're looking for and in ENGRISH! :)
Thanks I'll try that!
Okay, I can handle that my commute from Steinway to Jay St is no longer a one-seat ride 95% of the trip anymore. I can handle walking to the far far far end of the platform to the connector between 23/Ely and Court Sq.
But.
Why is it that whenever I walk down that connector (both to work and back home), the people mover is moving the opposite direction from me, and there are always 100 people walking my way for every solitary sod on the people mover? Are there really more people coming FROM the G to the 53St tunnel in the morning? Could've sworn it would be the opposite, but I suppose all them Greenpointers who work in Midtown gotta get to work somehow...
Well, most people work in Manhattan, so yes, people are going to 53rd in the morning to get into Manhattan, and the other way to get home. Though people may work in Brooklyn, most work in Manhattan.
Question: Why do you take the G at all? If you want to get to Jay, just take a V from Steinway and stay on it to anywhere along 6th Ave, preferably West 4th because you have the A/C upstairs for Jay if it is necessary, and wait for an F to Jay. No stairs, no people movers, etc, and the time difference cannot be that bad, it's three trains the way you're going.
Think about what he said he must be a late night traveller.
If that was the case then he wouldn't have a problem since the G runs to 71st/Forest Hills during that time (starting at 8:30 PM).
aha but coming back it does not
I think he wants to go from Queens to Brooklyn w/o going through Manhattan. While I can understand that maybe he should consider your suggestion and take the V into Manhattan, he can always get off at any stop before 2nd Av and get the F to Jay St (or at W4th of the A or C if needed).
Of course not including 2nd ave, lest he wish to take his odds on a 40/60 shot the train will hit his track (unbalanced because it's more efficient to fill the northbound track when both tracks are empty).
No his old one seat ride to work was VIA manhattan and late night because it was Via the F, now it is a two seat ride at night. Going home the people movers are against him.
Really going to work, taking the local to Roosevelt and changing sides for the F might work better and the F to the V going home might be better or the local to Queens Plaza and the bus (tricky).
>.or the local to Queens Plaza and the bus (tricky).
Going to work not coming home
If you could re-design the entire NYC Subway system from scratch, in effect, erasing the whole thing and starting over, what would you do differently?
(Without getting too fanciful, of course)
Some prompts:
- Direct service to JFK anf LGA
- Grid-style (1 line per track, like London & Paris) or branch style (as it is now)?
- Routes designed to serve the far reaches of Queens
- Tunnels built to serve the city, not compete with each other, with uniform car size
- Service to Jersey and Staten Island?
Thinking caps on.
Bring the IRT to system standards, so any train could run on any line.
Modify PATH to subway standards.
To put it simply:
1) Ban cars altogether from the borough of Manhattan
2) More subway lines, both in Manhattan, and throughout the city
3) More frequent subway service on each line
As for the specifics, probably a grid-style system, one north-south line either every 1 block or every 2 blocks apart. More crosstowns in Midtown, each one leading to some place in the outer boroughs (hence more outer borough service as well).
Nice Put the TLC out of buisness. Even though I don't favorite much our city's only left official Mafia run organization, I do support the drivers, both Taxi and Livery. if one would eliminate cars from manhattan, one immediately needs to make a whole lot more connections with Jersey and Upstate. Also one has to rebuild all the bridges so they could be used for transit. Its not very practical to me to make all our existing east river bridges into giant walking concourses for pedestrians.
One nutty idea I had was to ban cars from Manhattan EXCEPT on 34th Street between the Midtown and Licoln Tunnels and Canal St between the Manhattan Bridge and the Holland Tunnel, and of course the Trans-Manhattan Expwy (that far uptown might as well be openned to cars anyway.) Effectively Canal and 34th would then be turned almost into expressways, and pedestrian bridges would be built at every "intersection" with what would now be pedestrian streets. Perhaps safety walls would be built to seperate the pedestrians from auto traddic.
Now, even as I type this the flaws are becoming evident. Without any cars in Manhattan, the trains would be supercrowded. You'd need a LOT more subways. And I doubt 34th or Canal would convert well to expressways.
:-) Andrew
Build the entire IND Second System in its most fullblown version. Include the SI to 4th Ave BMT tunnel,
completely integrate the ex NYC/NH/LIRR electrical systems for fully flexible services--this includes reclaiming the High Line and joint use of the "Empire Connection" with catenary to Albany and 150mph service, reclaim and multitrack the West Shore and build a bridge over the Hudson to feed it to the current MN. okay I wake up soon.
STRIP all trackage and put down buffered welded rail with pan clips.
ELIMINATE electromech track zones...install inductive comm links
REPLACE all incandescent signals
UNIFY system with standard car size/BIE trips on trucks
MAKE the employees 'user friendly' like WalMart
ALL trainsets CBTC with backup
I've opened a can of worms I cannot close. CI Peter
MAKE the employees 'user friendly' like WalMart
Lotsa the TA help is user-friendly. Some are grumpy-growly foul.
Being user-friendly is likely to get the help in trouble with their supervisors.
Conductors really do need to have people skills. But it's as if they deliberately employ those who lack them altogether.
No, they just don't give any training in people skills.
Nothing like the spaced out smile that welcomes you to WalMart. CI Peter
I emailed you a couple of nights ago...Did you get it??? I haven't received any reply. Please let me know. Thanks.
Out of all of the local lines that offer service on Amtrak's NE Corridor, I think New Jersey Transit has the best, brightest, and cleanest so far. My personal favorite is the Hamilton station right outside Trenton.
Does anyone else have any favorite stations, and what local rail service has the best stations (NE Coridor only)
The NJT station in Atlantic City is also a good one.
I also like the Hamilton station, both inside and outside.
The Hamilton Station is practically brand new. Of course it's pretty. OTOH, it might just stay that way, unless NJT owns it. West Windsor owns the next north/eastbound station, Princeton Junction, and it's kept up very nicely. I'm pretty sure NJT owns the rest of the stations on the NEC, and they are comparitively shabby. Take Metuchen, for example, with its badly remodeled station building and the ugly tiel paintjob. If the town of Hamilton is responsible for their station, it should be well-maintained.
Yes, the Princeton Junction station is also kept up very well, and was recently refurbished.
I used to like the Newark station because of the PCC cars running around its basement.
That station is a class act! Looks like nice landscaping also.
PJ has a full station building on either side of the tracks. It also has an accessable walkway under the tracks. In case you hear, NJ surpassed CT as the richest state in the US and PJ is right smack in the middle of the wealth belt. I was there last Saturday. My cousin lives 2 blocks from the station and I spent an hour there taking night photograhps. It is a wonderful railfan location. Aside from the 12 car NJT MU trains and the single unit Princeton shuttle (aka the dink), ALP hauled NJt trains and Amtra Keystones and Clockers stop there. The most thrilling part is that this is one of the fastest parts of the NEC and non-stoping Amtrak trains tear through the station at 110-120mph. You have a 2-3 mile view down the tracks in either direction you you always know if something is comming and there is a PRR signal bridge that helps liven things up as well. The station is so popular that if you want a parking space you need to check the obituares.
PJ has a full station building on either side of the tracks.
There's no station building on the southbound side; just a roof over part of the platform and the stairs to the tunnel and the Dinky platform, with a wall connecting the rear of the platform to the roof. There's no station on the other side of the wall.
The station is so popular that if you want a parking space you need to check the obituares.
I work with people who live in Princeton Jct whose spouses drive to Hamilton because they can't park at PJ.
There is a station building on the SB trackside. It is in the crook where the NEC platform joins the dink platform about where the old PJ station used to be. It is small, but there are seats, TVM's and possible a window. In the two pics you liked to I believe the first was the NB station and the second the SB waiting area.
I went back to the Princeton Junction station today to check out my memory. It's no better than it ever was. The westbound platform is more spartan than I'd remembered; there's no wall; just an open platform with a roof over it. The Dinky waiting roomwas locked and was used for storing boxes the last time I checked it out (last Oct 17), but today it was open and in use as a waiting room. It has two doors, windows, benches, two pay telephones, but no TVM's. It is, as you stated, where the Dinky platform and the westbound platform meet.
Twenty five years ago, city guy takes self-propelled to Princeton Junction for job interview. Walked half a mile in winter street...dress shoes. Company invented boxcar integration system. Wear only work boots today. CI Peter
So Amtrak Acela Express doesn't reach the maximum allowed 135 here (125 for conventional trains)?
I only saw conventional trains.
I believe that the Acela Express does go through at maximum speed... not 100% certain though. I'm basing this on my own Acela ride through there; we were on the express tracks, passing another Amtrak train (Metroliner or other short train) which was on the local tracks but which had not stopped at the station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well you sold me. I'll have to take a look for myself oneday.
One interesting thing about Hamilton station is the fact that no signs say "New York". They only say "Newark"! Even on the WESTBOUND platform, the sign directs passengers up the stairs for "Trains to Newark". The reason I put WESTBOUND in caps is because on New Jersey Transit, everything is considered EAST and WEST, not north and south. In other posts in this thread, the "southbound" side of Princeton Junction was referred to. I knew what they meant, however, in railroad terms, it's wrong. Interestingly enough, even when the coastline trains are traveling due EAST when going from Hazlet to Middletown, for example, that is reffered to as a WESTBOUND train. Crazy, huh? But, that's the way it is!
hey welcome to myopic RR robber baron arrogance--the "friendly SP" numbered and classed ALL trains with reference to or from San Francisco. Thus in ealr ATK years the Coast Starlight changed from a westbound (LA-Oak) to an Eastbound (Oak-Sea) and changed numbers.
Halilton is without a doubt the best commuter station in the country. Being brad nes helps more than a little. It is a bis hub, it has acres of parking, landscaping, public sculpture, extremely well lit, a glass walkway over the 4 mainline NEC tracks, hi-level platforms at the level of the parking area, easy freeway access, hated waiting area and many other things I am sure I have forgotten about.
"Hated waiting areas?" "Brad nes?"
The Brads of the world thank you. Whom should I hate upon entering the waiting room?
:0)
(I understood what you meant to type, though. Sounds like a cool station).
I had just rolled out of bed.
I thought maybe you were using your cell phone -- wireless web -- small buttons, you know.
Or maybe Brad's cellphone.
The acres of parking get FULL! However, parking by the Transit building reserved lot is opened up at (I think) 10 AM to the general public. If you get there at 9 AM, you join the caravan of cars circling the lot following passengers who got off arriving trains.
...hi-level platforms at the level of the parking area...
High level platform at the level of the parking area is well illustrated in these two photos.
lets see......hmmmm.........
the san diego "redbirds"
long beach Blue Line ..MTA los angeles ...
how bout your vote ?
Well, Salaam, you've got to define "best." In the US, for railfan purposes, I think I'd still have to say Philadelphia. It has a balance of fast, efficient running, with the trolley subway downtown. Add to that a diversity of rights-of-way outside the subway, lots of non-revenue trackage, running of tree-lined streets as well as gritty urbran ones. Let's not forget the suburban lines with an old-fashioned traction terminal, runs through woods and interurban style street crossing, and single-track street running in Media. I like the equipment, too--real street railway "feel."
All of North America, maybe I'd give the edge to Toronto. Even more diversity, expanding routes, lots of street running, nice equipment.
Honorable mention, SF.
Many many European system would blow these away, though.
Though there are many nice features on newer American systems, I don't think there's enough of any one to make it a best.
Wow! It's good to hear Philly's transit to get avote for the best in anything!
I've not ridden all the U.S. systems, but I really like St. Louis Metrolink for its airport service and old victorian underground sections, Dallas DART for its rapid expansion in a car-dominated city, and Salt Lake City's UTA TRAX for the incredible mountain scenery.
Like you I love Toronto (their whole transit system, too) with its unique streetcars and extensive lines.
Mark
Boston's light rail isn't too bad either.
Leipzig in Germany - it's massive.
Ottawa's O-Train!!! Sure it's currently only a five station, single track line, but there are lots of expansion plans and those Bombardier Talent trains are SWEET!!!!!
did anyone see the amsterdam trams pictures etc... webmaster dave took ??
Last week I bought a scanner that does 35 mm slides. I'm in the process of putting some of my train shots on my photo website.
1973 to 1975
1974 to 1980
Great stuff Bob! The MP54 in original paint are super. Thaks for sharing.
avid
Nice pictures. I think that was my first time seeing a GG1 in use (except for my HO model).
nice pictures. Chuchubob
Excellent shots, Bob!. Too bad these weren't scanned in time for the photo contest. My 2 favorites are:
GG-1 #900, 11 Mar 74 S.B. out of 30th St
and
Bullet car #200 Radnor, 17 Oct 74
Too bad you didn't find one of Bullet Car #205. I would have liked to have seen it in P&W livery.
Too bad you didn't find one of Bullet Car #205. I would have liked to have seen it in P&W livery.
I thinkI rode #205 more than any of the others. #209 was probably the runner-up. Needless to say, I nearly did a flip the first time I saw #205 at Rockhill.
Thanks, Pete, for your response. And thanks also to avid reader, 4thAvenueLocal, amin peralta, and howardr142 for your kind responses.
This second choice is out of sight!
It should be on a calander for the Month of October.
I'd call it "Indian Summer Interlude" or something mushy like that.
You realize what you are doing?
You are slowly creating an addiction , a craving for a digital camera, a lust to learn hom to morph photos old and new..
avid
Great shots!!
I would like to mention that any G renumbered to the 900's had already been sold to Amtrak. That was done so that the GG-1 rosters would be separated. The ones still in 4800 and 4900 series were still in the hands of the court overseeing the PC bankruptcy. The court OK'd the sale of the motors. Amtrak took only the newer 4900 series motors.
GG1 4800 to 4855 were geared for 90 mph and were therefore used for freight service. GG1 4856 to 4938 eventually made their way to Amtrak (not inclusive). Not that the early loco's coudln't pull. Those pics of #4800 that chuchubob took were on a fan trip. He told me that the loco hauled 21 cars and an E-60 all by itself with AEM-7+ acceleration. The E-60 was providing HEP only.
Great shots!
Wow! Amazing slides! It's nice to have such a variety on each page.
What kind of scanner/slide adapter did you get? I've been eyeing one for myself.
Thanks. It's an Epson. Can't give you the model number cause I'm at work and it's at home, but it has the transparency scanning system built into the lid, rather than as a portable lamp placed over the glass. If you want more specific info, email me.
I went back for another look.
The two Bullet shots, 208 December Calander "to Grandmothers House we go."
204 January "Over the Mountain and through the woods"
I feel as if I was allowed to take a peek back through time. Thanks.
avid
Very nice stuff, I enjoyed very much, thanks for sharing.
Mr rt__:^)
I use this photo storage database too .. on exite.
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
"Mobilizing the Region" yesterday had a bit on the Second Avenue Subway alternate routing debate (much discussed here: Build new line in eastern portion of financial district, or hook into J/M/Z?).
Their piece mentioned a J/M/Z connection would "not build any completely new subway stations south of 23rd Street (14th Street and Houston are served by the L and F/V respectively.)"
I dropped a note to say this wasn't quite correct, since AFAIK the L station at 14th has NO Second Avenue infrastructure. Was this correct? I presume a 2nd Ave line would have to drop underneath the existing L. Despite the depth of the L station at Third Ave, it doesn't look to me like the east end has enough room to put 2nd Ave tracks plus mezzanine above the L. A 2nd Ave station below the L would be getting pretty deep there.
Also AFAIK, at the Houston station that leads to the Rutgers Tunnels, there is structural stuff built in preparation for IND Second System but no station shell or trackways or anything. Is this correct? How much if anything is actually build?
(I looked through this site but the Sixth Ave-63rd Street line info doesn't seem to answer my Qs .... )
Based on the depth of the L at Union Square (three levels below ground) and First Ave. (two levels), it might be possible to thread a Second Ave. line one level below the street at 14th, and above the L line. A transfer downstairs to the L at the east end of the Third Ave. station could then be built.
But because of the layout at Houston St., with the F tracks and the Essex connection via Chystie St. (Willie B-bound) two levels below ground while the B/D tracks on Chrystie and the Essex-B'way Lafayette connection are one level underground, any Second Ave. line station there would probably have to be three levels below the surface to avoid conflict with those other lines. Given that, it would make more sense to keep the Second Ave line a deep tunnel between Houston and 14th, and run the tracks under the 14th St. line, with the transfer to the L at Third Ave. being upstairs instead of downstairs, while a common mezzanine for both lines could be built one level below ground, at Second Ave. and 14th St.
because of the layout at Houston St., with the F tracks and the Essex connection via Chystie St. (Willie B-bound) two levels below ground while the B/D tracks on Chrystie and the Essex-B'way Lafayette connection are one level underground
I don't know the station, but isn't all that grade level splitting done west of the station? The track book shows what looks like a standard one-level four-track station: Inside express tracks into a dead-end lead to the tunnel that was never built, outside locals to the F running north/south along Essex Street.
And I thought that the station had at least some Second Avenue provisions built into it? This sentence is on that station's listing on the IND Sixth Avenue/63rd Street Line page: "Evidence of the connection for the 2nd Ave. Subway is found in a lower transverse ceiling." It describes a standard four-track station as above.
Another question is, where and how would the Second Avenue Line connect into the J/M/Z? It would have to cross the lead to the Willy B and the Chrystie Street B/D/Q connector somewhere. Looks like it ought to connect at the corner of Kenmare and Centre, but don't know the terrain or as-built conditions down there. Probably a non-trivial challenge; you need a bunch of flyovers and flyunders to offer best flexibility while avoiding level crossings across a four-track run.
As for the 2 Ave, It would be nice too if they would use the soon to be abandoned tracks at Canal, and some how use the current Queens bound platform at Chambers, I gues it would then have to merge with the JMZ for Fulton & Broad, or even more fantasy: Send the M to 6th Avenue to solve the problem of too many trains, and terminate the J/Z at Chambers. Have the new 2nd Ave take over the to Brooklyn traffic. The M gets little use down there, and ending the J at Chambers is only two stations short, maybe some sort of across the platform change at Chambers to the southbound 2nd Ave trains. Chambers has plenty of room, it would just have to be reconfigured a little.
"As for the 2 Ave, It would be nice too if they would use the soon to be abandoned tracks at Canal, and some how use the
current Queens bound platform at Chambers,..."
That is certainly a realistic possibility. MTA engineers have stated as much.
Tunnelling in the financial district, will be much more expensive, per mile, than the rest of the line. Here is where commuters, the borough president's staff, the MTA, (and all of us by phone and mail) have to decide what is really important down there and what we think we can pay for.
I served on the task force until I moved to Philly. Glad to see they're making progress.
"As for the 2 Ave, It would be nice too if they would use the soon to be abandoned tracks at Canal, and some how use the
current Queens bound platform at Chambers,..."
That is certainly a realistic possibility. MTA engineers have stated as much.
That would be currently unused tracks & Canal platforms on the J/M/Z?
I served on the task force until I moved to Philly.
Were you an MTA employee, an insider of some kind or just an interested citizen? How does one get onto such Task Forces?
That would be currently unused tracks & Canal platforms on the J/M/Z?
All platforms at Canal are currently in use.
It seems like a good idea. There is the extra capacity and space. to use the Nassau line, and it would keep costs down. And the Nassau line is very underutilized anyway currently.
When the Houston-Second Ave. station for the F train was originally built, I believe the plan was to run the eventual (or mythical, depending on your point of view) Second Ave. subway above the four tracks coming from Sixth Ave and heading towards Brooklyn. But when the Chrystie St. connection was built, the tracks for the B and D trains, along with the track coming from Essex St to B'way-Lafayette that the KK used, were built on that level so they could fly over the Brooklyn-bound F train's tracks. The Essex St.-bound track the KK uses smimply splits off from the F tracks at the same level, and then goes under the B/D tracks between Houston and Rivington Sts.
With three of those four new tracks only one level below ground, the only way to run the Second Ave. tracks above the Houston St. F/V station would be to angle them slightly east of the B/D tracks on Chrystie and beneath Sara Delano Roosevelt Park. That would mean the Houston St. station for the Second Ave. line would have to be either all north of Houston or all south of Houston, or you would have a curve in the station that might require gap fillers. Also, if the tracks are one level below the street a link up with the J/M/Z tracks would be tougher, since they would have to cross over the old Chrystie St. KK tracks and then drop down to meet the J/M/Z at Delancey before entering the Bowery station.
The MTA could re-re-configure the Nassau Loop in the future, so that the J/M/Z would use the south side (Williamsburgh-bound) platform at Bowery, while the Second Ave. line would use the north side (Chambers-bound) platform That would actually make more sense under the currently planned re-cofiguration, since those would be the tracks that would become the through tracks to Nassau Street and Brooklyn, and a Second Ave. train to DeKalb and south is more logical than running the M train there. The tracks used by the J/M/Z under this arrangement would terminate at Chambers.
But the engineering would be a lot easier if the Second Ave. line was three levels below ground, because it could then go under the B/D and the old KK tracks and come up to meet the J/M/Z tracks west of the Bowery station, before the tracks turn onto Centre Street. That would mean no Second Ave. stop between Canal-Centre and Houston-2nd Ave., but it would allow the Second Ave. line to either use the soon-to-be-abandoned east side platform at Canal or the west side platform, or to reconfigure the line again so that Second Ave. would either use the inner or outer tracks on both platforms, in a standard four-track platform arrangement that would allow either the Second Ave. or the J/M/Z trains to continue on to Broad Street or Brooklyn.
There MUST be something in the existing system under Houston to accomodate a 2nd Av line. Anyone know exactly what it is? Would it allow easy switching of 2nd Av trains into the Rutgers St line?
My view of the cheapest, most effective solution is to send part of the 2nd Av line service to the Rutgers line, with the remainder of the service going down Centre and to Brooklyn (one presumes the all of the involved station platforms can be lengthened to 600 feet; if not, then the Water St routing is the only way to go). The Chrystie St. connection would be brought back into use.
The virtue of this is that all 2nd Av trains would be thru to Brooklyn, which would not be the case with Water St. routing. The Centre St. option would allow only 50% of the trains to go to Brooklyn. Additional service via Rutgers, then, makes perfect sense.
30 tph on the Culver line would certainly provoke some new construction on it, perhaps a connection to the Brighton line via Prospect Park.
NO their is not to my knowledge any provision for a connection to the Rutgers line at Houston/2nd ave. What is there is believed to be an open box space for tracks to pass under the current Mezzabibe and above the travks/platforms in service.
I spent some time walking around staring there in early Sept. That was my station in 66-70 but back then I had no knowledge of Second System provisions although I had noticed the Utica/Fulton oddity. When I lived there, there were several boarded off stairways to the mezz at the 1s Ave end. These have been removed although you can easily see evidence of the locations. AFAIK, those stairs were to lead to the mezz to facilitate access to the planned uptown side of the Second Ave Line. In turn at the Second ave end you can see in the ceiling arrangement from the platforms, a lowered area for transverse trackways.
As to the 'best' plan for the line, IMHO a FOUR track trunk is Sine Qua NON. The two track semi express plan will be sardined out te day it opens. On the south end, tieing some of it into the underutilised Nassau tracks is a good first pass. This should not rule out future routing to the east downtown or a new tunnel to Brooklyn. Again, IMHO the market is there, build it they will ride.
On the south end, tieing some of it into the underutilised Nassau tracks is a good first pass.
This should not rule out future routing to the east downtown or a new tunnel to Brooklyn.
How much spare capacity is there now in the Rutgers Tunnel? Are there other bottlenecks that would prevent using it for Second Ave service?
I suspect a new Brooklyn tunnel is out of the question. I'd much rather spend the money on a new Manhattan-Bronx tunnel so the Second Avenue line could take over the Dyre Avenue line and/or give Co-Op City the subway line it desperately needs.
Not that it's up to me ....
How much spare capacity is there now in the Rutgers Tunnel? Are there other bottlenecks that would prevent using it for Second Ave service?
The Rutgers St tube has been underutilized since at least the time the BMT/IND hookup via Grand St. occurred. As I recall, it's never been more than 15 or so tph; look at the trains they turn back at 2Av, all of which could easily be sent on to Brooklyn. The switching between express and local tracks on the 6th Av to get into the 53rd St system really does limit the capacity of the 6Av lines, and it's Rutgers that gets the short end. Once you're past 2nd Av going into E B'way, there's nothing obstructing the run into Brooklyn. Sending 2nd Av service via this underused East River tunnel makes compelling sense.
The Centre St line shares the Montague tube with the Broadway line. 15 tph from 2nd Avenue balances out what they plan for 2nd Ave.
Of course, they should build the 2Av as 4 tracks, at least into the 80s, but everything you read says they are not even considering it. Until and unless it is sent into the Bronx, I don't think it will have that much effect on the Lex.
The Rutgers/2nd Ave connection has been proposed by ridership advocates, and it has a 0% chance of being constructed. It'd be a waste of money, as Rutger St. tunnel service can be vastly increased by merely extending the V train to Church Ave.
It'd be a waste of money, as Rutger St. tunnel service can be vastly increased by merely extending the V train to Church Ave.
Different sets of people! F/V have only four stops difference between them. I'd *much* rather see a Second Avenue Subway run through Rutgers than both the F and V. Gives quicker access to Brooklyn for Harlem and UES riders without a change.
The market for service between the UES and Brooklyn is miniscule compared to the market for service from the UES to midtown or Wall Street or the market for service between Brooklyn and midtown or Wall Street. (And 2nd Ave and 42nd St doesn't fully qualify as midtown - too far east for most office workers).
Any direct train from the UES to Brooklyn that doesn't go either through midtown or the financial district (such as 2nd Ave to Rutgers) would make the G train look incredibly overcrowded by comparison.
A 2nd Ave train must have easy transfers to Brooklyn bound trains at 14th, Houston, and Chrystie Streets, but it needs to go down to Wall Street. A Water St route would be ideal but a Nassau St route would be 100 times better than not going to the financial district at all.
A 2nd Ave train must have easy transfers to Brooklyn bound trains at 14th, Houston, and Chrystie Streets, but it needs to go down to Wall Street. A Water St route would be ideal but a Nassau St route would be 100 times better than not going to the financial district at all.
Well, I wasn't proposing that ALL 2nd Ave trains go through Rutgers. But you're right; the main traffic is north-south.
2nd Ave and 42nd St doesn't fully qualify as midtown - too far east for most office workers
Yes and no. There are a lot of office buildings on First and Second in the low and mid Forties (though the one I worked in, which was Robert Moses' last NYC project, was demolished for Trump's monolithic condo tower at First and 49th).
I've rather wondered whether a Second Avenue subway might lead to an eastward extension of midtown office towers in the 40s and 50s, at least to the west side of Second. There are some very expensive townhouses in the side streets around there, but I bet there are also potential development sites whose value increases if there's a subway entrance to the UES within 2 or 3 blocks.
I agree. I prefer the Water St route myself.
True, but the millions of $$$ spent to do this would be wasteful when simply extending the V increases service. Transit money is sparse, lets spend it wisely.
The Rutgers/2nd Ave connection has been proposed by ridership advocates, and it has a 0% chance of being constructed. It'd be a waste of money, as Rutger St. tunnel service can be vastly increased by merely extending the V train to Church Ave.
If the Centre-Nassau-Broad St alignment is chosen (and it seems to be the cheapest of the alternatives), they would have to cut into it at Delancey and Chrystie St. The plan for the Water St. alignment 4-tracks the existing Grand St. Station; cutting into Delancey precludes this option -- there would be NO transfer to 2nd Av trains coming from the ManBridge, tho' there would be one at DeKalb.
Whatever is done at Delancey/Chrystie, it would seem to be relatively easy to provide for 6Av service downtown and potentially thru the Montague tube to Brooklyn, along with 2Av service. The remainder of the 2Av service would obviously go to Brooklyn via the Bridge, and the costs of a connection to Rutgers would become difficult to justify, tho' 2nd Av service at Jay St. is of *obvious* utility.
A 6Av connection to downtown is of obvious merit. It would relieve some of the transfer-crush to the Lex at CitiCorp, tho' to what extent I don't know.
I doubt people going all the way downtown from Queens would transfer at Lex and 53rd. It's a long grind on the local, which only goes to BB anyway, or else you have to transfer again to the express.
Pre-9/11, it was quicker to take the E to WTC. Other choices for Queens to downtown include taking the E or F to W 4th and transferring to the A or C to Bway-Nassau, taking the R to Lex and transferring to a downtown express, taking the F to 34th and transferring to the N/R, and others I'm not thinking of right now.
I doubt people going all the way downtown from Queens would transfer at Lex and 53rd. It's a long grind on the local, which only goes to BB anyway, or else you have to transfer again to the express.
I'd disagree. Remember from Lex-53rd/51st, it's just one stop on the 6 to Grand Central and then a cross-platform transfer to the 4/5. It's only 4 stops to Wall Street from there, and the IRTs run frequently. Back when I was using those trains, I used to see a lot of cross-platform transferring.
Sure, lots of cross-platform from the 6 to the 4/5 at GCT. But how many of those originated on Queens Blvd, then changed to the 6 at 53rd? It just doesn't make sense to take 3 trains when you can take 2. The 4/5 downtown aren't even that fast at rush hour: they back up trying to get past the moving platform at 14th St.
Sure, lots of cross-platform from the 6 to the 4/5 at GCT. But how many of those originated on Queens Blvd, then changed to the 6 at 53rd? It just doesn't make sense to take 3 trains when you can take 2.
Well, it's more like two and a half as cross-platform transfers are (to me anyway) much easier to do than up a staircase, across some kind of mezzanine or lobby, down another stair ... etc.
The real drawback to this route is the incredibly lengthy Lex-53 to 51st route, esp. incoming when you have to come up the escaltor, through the passage, down the stairs, under the tracks, and back up the stairs.
Of course, we can argue all night. The disadvantage to not having any exit swipes on MetroCard is that the TA doesn't really KNOW where its trips end, only where they begin. Must make transit planning MUCH harder if you don't know where they're going ....
If they build it to four tracks, are they at least going to build it in such a way that would allow for 2 tracks to be added later as need or money arises?
As far as I know, there is no provision for 2nd Ave trains to connect with the F line. The 2nd Ave line is supposed to connect to the line at Grand on the B and D line. If not physically then at least a transfer for customers.
The original Chrystie St. line was meant for 2nd Ave trains to access the BMT.
I knew that!
OK, now some other people know it!
lol
I didn't make Peggy's trip on Sunday, partly because I was too lazy to leave the house at 5:30 AM on a Sunday to make the 9 AM start. I've been looking for a post describing the trip, but haven't seen one. Did I miss the thread?
I don't believe there was a thread, but there was a field trip. We started at Park Place and finished at 242nd Street with stops at several stations on the line where we examined subway art, viewed subway yards, and saw where there had been double-decker elevators. Perhaps we can coax Peggy out to supply more details.
I would be very interested to hear about the double decker elevators. I saw on a post about the trip that they were at 168 and 181. At 181 I can see where they may have had an opening on the platform level to allow access to the elevators, but I don't see any evidence of where they were at 168. Also, how did they load/unload at the top?????????
My mom once worked in a building with double decker elevators. When the elevator would stop, a "serving other deck" light would come on if the doors didn't open when it stopped.
The Citicorp (er, excuse me, Citigroup) Building has 'em.
--Mark
The Citicorp (er, excuse me, Citigroup) Building has 'em.
That's interesting. I was just there for the first time a couple of weeks ago (to see the model train layout) and I was wondering why the elevator bank had a sign saying "Even Floors Only".
The elevator bank above or below you (not sure) would have the second deck serving odd floors. If the elevator stopped on an even floor and no one was getting on or off at an odd floor, the desk serving the odd floors would have a message saying "upper (lower) deck being served").
It was always very interesting going from 36 to 41 ... sometimes the elevator would work properly, other times I'd be "treated" for a ride to the lobby ....
--Mark
There's a couple other prominent skyscrapers that also have/had double-deck elevators:
Sears Tower in Chicago (Express elevators that serve 2-story skylobbies on levels 33-34 and 66-67. Local elevators are single-deck.)
World Trade Center (Rest in peace. Express elevators only, similar to the Sears Tower configuration, if I'm not mistaken.)
Amoco Building (Local elevators, serving alternate floors in even/odd pattern.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
at 168 there are two crossovers which are in the form of bridgesd over the tracks. The one that is closer to 242 is the one which needs careful examination.
If you will use this crossover from the downtown side to the uptown and just before you step down to where you go left or right look at the area over the landing, shielding your eyes from the lights and you can see the scissor gates.While not sure, if you will go down either set of steps and look at the wall tile, you can see where they dont match- this was the location.
As far as Peggy posting more info, she was on vacation so please be patient! I allow Peggy to use my computer and with over 700 e-mails to sort through it was big project.
OK; I'll bite :)
The trip began at Park Place, where Gary and Roseanne Wengeroff, David J. Greenberger, Interborough, KMA, Frank Caliendo, and two others whose names I forget met tour guide Peggy Darlington at 9:00. At the WTC complex, the Oculus is mostly hidden by a black sheet over the glass separating it from the paid area; the passage where it resides is closed to the public. We made a stop on the A/C platform to lean over and observe the wall where the glass doors leading from the E to the shopping concouse once were.
The first stop on the line was Houston, were Peggy pointed out the "Platform Diving" mosaics, which illustrate platforms and subway cars infiltrated by marine life. The artwork also provides absolute proff that Redbirds ran on the 1 ;)
Next stop was Christopher St/Sheridan Sq. Like most of the stations on the West Side IRT south of Times Square, Christopher St has been recently renovated with a "skin job;" that is, the old white tile has been covered over with new tile, while the original station name tablets and Squire Vickers mosaics have been cleaned. A skin job is easy to identify, because the original tilework is recessed in the new tile. The artwork in this station is titled "The Greenwich Village Murals" and was designed by students at PS 41.
The next noteworthy station is 34 St, although Peggy pointed out a quirk at 23rd: the platform is painted bare concrete, rather than tiled. At 34th, we saw the blue plywood wall where Sbarro's "railfan windows" were, a victim of ADA compliance (this is where the platform elevators will be installed), and small ceramic mosaics of animals.
A decent amount of time was spent exploring the renovations at Times Square. including the new Jacob Lawrence mosaic on the IRT mezzanine and another large mosaic over the BMT stairways. Elevators in the BMT "ellipse" are almost complete. Long-term closure of the main entrance on the south side of 42 St between Broadway and 7 Ave began the morning of our trip.
After a quick rest stop in the Port Authority Bus Terminal, we took a look at renovations on the IND platform, where loose tiles were being removed from the walls, and workers were sawcutting the local side of the downtown platform. Debris was being loaded onto flatcars parked on the local tracks; the MOW consist was headed by two locos and an R-14 rider car.
50 St is an older renovation; the original tilework has been removed, and new station name tablets do not match the old. The original tablets still exist near the fare control. The artwork in this station is entitled "Alice: The Way Out" and depicts characters from Alice in Wonderland.
66 St has been beautifully restored, and the station name tablets could be mistaken for 1904 originals, save for one glaring detail: the new tablets read "66TH ST LINCOLN CENTER." Lincoln Center opened in 1962. The new "66" number plaques feature a stylized "LC" in the background.
86 St retains its early 1960s look; however, small pieces of ceramic artwork, one of them depicting the 72 St stationhouse, have been installed.
Next, we boarded an "upside-down 13" train to 96 St. Street entrances lead to disused side platforms; island platforms are accessed via crossunders. Iron fencing blocks off most of the northbound side platform, save for a passage to the restrooms, which are locked.
To be continued...
Obviously, that should have begun, "The trip began at Park Place, where Gary and Roseanne Wengeroff, David J. Greenberger, Interborough, KMA, Frank Caliendo, myself, and two others whose names I forget..."
Thanks for your response, so far. It sounds like a worthwhile trip (as anticipated).
And I didn't even get to the good parts :). I'll try to post a sequel later today, unless someone else wants to take over.
[Next ... 96 St. Street entrances lead to disused side platforms; island platforms are accessed via crossunders. Iron fencing blocks off most of the northbound side platform, save for a passage to the restrooms, which are locked.]
Did you see the Tower at the North end of the platform on the dowtown side ? (it's on the West unused platform).
For many years I would run across the platform from a downtown local, peer down the line to see if a express was coming or had just left, then run back to the local before the doors closed.
Did you notice the underground yard after 137th ? Years ago trains were turned at 137th, the center track was a relay track.
Mr rt__:^)
Did you see the Tower at the North end of the platform on the dowtown side ? (it's on the West unused platform).
Yes, from the uptown side. Due to time considerations, we didn't venture onto too many downtown platforms. Of course we peered out the windows to see the "yard" trackage at 137 (and the station at 91) :).
I also forgot to mention another tower, at the north end of 168(?) St. It's on a crossover, accessed from either platform by a narrow staircase. The structure is probably a later addition, as half of a name tablet is hidden behind the staircase on the downtown side.
Part 3 and photos to come, eventually.
There you go, 91st is where Steff was first assigned, but he told the supervisor that he would need a left handed monkey wrench to get in the booth.
Mr rt__:^)
That's not such a bad assignment; I hear it's a pretty low-volume station ;)
There is no tower of any sort at any of the deep stations on the 1 line.
Yes there is, although it's apparently not in everyday use. It's at the far north end of the station at 168, suspended over the tracks. It's accessed via a staircase from the SB platform (and I believe another staircase from the NB platform). (If that's not a tower, maybe you could tell us what it is.)
I don't know what it is, but I do know it ain't a tower.
track storage space, anyone?
track storage space, anyone?
....got another one just like it
at 149-GC on the 2/5 lines... go look
and report back what you see...
Peggy had pointed out that it's only used for the occasional GO when trains are turning in the area. It was locked and not in use the day of our trip.
Peggy, are you reading this? <g>
I checked with Peggy. She told me the source was track workers and track worker supervisors in the area and a station supervisor in the area. The tower is used only when a G.O. requires use regular use of the crossover from Downtown to Uptown in the tunnel north of the station.
Good post! I wish I could have come. Peggy told me all about the trip and told me to emphasize 125 which is not an el. IF you will walk beneath the structure you can see the arched bridge and the station is on the bridge.
Thanks! Be sure to let us know when Peggy's photos are ready.
e-mail Peggy off site for info on obtaining a CD of the trip.
I've used that tower to help me decide whether to take the first local or to wait for the express. That can't be done now, since trains from Lenox can be either express (3) or local (2). Besides, I think a few bulbs need replacement; trains seem to vanish only to reappear a station or two down the line.
Excellent synopsis. Some comments:
The first stop on the line was Houston, were Peggy pointed out the "Platform Diving" mosaics, which illustrate platforms and subway cars infiltrated by marine life. The artwork also provides absolute proff that Redbirds ran on the 1 ;)
Mutant Redbirds, that is. Too many windows.
A decent amount of time was spent exploring the renovations at Times Square. including the new Jacob Lawrence mosaic on the IRT mezzanine and another large mosaic over the BMT stairways.
The Jacob Lawrence mosaic was the one at the BMT ellipse. I don't know who did the large one in the IRT mezzanine, but I like it.
86 St retains its early 1960s look; however, small pieces of ceramic artwork, one of them depicting the 72 St stationhouse, have been installed.
There's also one of an RTS on the M104 and one of the 96th Street station with a Redbird 2.
Next, we boarded an "upside-down 13" train to 96 St. Street entrances lead to disused side platforms; island platforms are accessed via crossunders.
The south street entrances, between 93rd and 94th, lead to a typical mezzanine one level above the island platforms. Evidence of the platform extension is apparent in a seam in the floor.
The Jacob Lawrence mosaic was the one at the BMT ellipse. I don't know who did the large one in the IRT mezzanine, but I like it.
Whoops... I pass through every day, and I'm getting the mosaics mixed up.
There's also [artwork at 86 St] of an RTS on the M104 and one of the 96th Street station with a Redbird 2.
Not to mention the tile of a homeless man sleeping on Broadway...
The south street entrances, between 93rd and 94th, lead to a typical mezzanine one level above the island platforms. Evidence of the platform extension is apparent in a seam in the floor.
Also, the columns change from round to I-section.
Part 2.
At 125 St, we emerged from underground... or rather, the ground dropped out from under us.
The line, supported by a cantilevered structure, remains relatively level while the surface
of Manhattan drops down to approx. 170' below it. The station house retains its wooden
floors, and the platform canopy is wood covered in metal, though the metal is missing in
several places. 1/9 strip maps are still posted on the platform. The group made a brief
stop here to examine the structure from below, including evidence of closed portions of the
station house.
168 St, the next station visited on our tour, is, in my opinion, the grandest in the system.
The platforms are still lit by ornamental mercury-vapor fixtures, and there is evidence of
the chandeliers which once hung from the high-arched ceiling. Platform extensions are made
obvious by their IND-style tilework and change in the tunnel roof. Double0decker elevators
were once located at the east end of one crossover; the lower level has been walled and
tiled over, and grillework is in place where the doors for the upper level were. The shaft
is now used for ventilation, the cars having been removed quite some time ago; however,
several pigeons appeared to be waiting for a ride in the upper cab.
181 and 191 are similar to 168: high vaulted ceilings with flatter, IND-esque extensions and
traces of long-vanished double-decker elevators. 181 features a small shopping concourse
outside fare control. The IRT station name tablets are in two distinct styles; one has
"GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE" directly below "181ST STREET" in a blue field surrounded by a
green border, while the other has "GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE" below "181ST STREET" outside
the border. The two styles alternate along the platform wall. As we were about to leave
the station, a "customer" ran down to the downtown platform, sprayed a 4' high tag on the
underside of a staircase, and ran back up the stairs. 191 St, the deepest in the system, is
in desperate need of renovation. Most of the mosaic name tablets have been covered over
with standard white-on-black signage.
The group opted to get some fresh air and exercise and walk down Fort George Hill to Dyckman
St. Attractions along the way included mission-style apartment houses on Wadsworth Avenue
and a rather bucolic view of the side of the hill we were on not too long before.
At Dyckman Street, the subway emerges from the hillside, and the station platforms are at
grade. The Broadway el begins at the north end of this station. Our next stops were 207
and 215 Sts to glipmse reef-ready "Deadbirds" in the 207 St yard.
225 St, the first station north of the Broadway Bridge, was next to be explored, followed by
a short walk to the Marble Hill Metro North station for views of the bridge.
Last stop, 242 St. The terminal has two island platforms and two disused side platforms,
which, oddly enough, are not blocked off. Broadway is ~150 feet wide at this point, and the
el only covers the southbound lanes; a covered pedestrian walkway extends to the east side
of the street.
Although this was the end of the scheduled tour (and close to five hours after we departed
Park Place), the day was just beginning. Stay tuned...
Mike
Don't keep us hanging waiting for part 3
It was bad enough I could not make it.
Sorry this took so long; I haven't SubSquawked for a while...
It's 1:48 P.M., you have an unlimited-ride Metrocard, a knowlegeable tour guide, and nothing in particular planned for the rest of the day. Naturally, the only logical thing to do is to keep riding!
The Wengeroffs had already left Burger King, so it was down to a core group of five for the ride back on the 1. At 168 St, Interborough and his friend stayed on the 1, while Peggy, David, and I headed for the IND. We caught an R-32 GE car (#3880-1) for our ride to 145 St, where Peggy showed us four sure ways to spot a staircase that has been removed. At 125 St, David and I were put to the challenge of finding the "ghost stairs" on our own :).
We spent a considerable amount of time exploring 81 St and its elaborate art installation, For Want of a Nail, a joint project between the MTA and the Museum of Natural History. The platform walls feature reliefs of fossils, and there are small mosaics of brightly-colored present day animals that give way to grey silhouettes of their prehistoric ancestors. An animals whose ancestry is unknown sports a red question mark. Floor-to-ceiling murals in the stairways depict marine life (a recurring theme, apparently; see Platform Diving at Houston St, the SUBmerged poster, and the fate of the carbon-steel IRT fleet) and a map of the stars, part of which is etched into a glass covering.
From 81 St, we hopped on a C train to get to the staple of SubTalk field trips, the Franklin Ave Shuttle. From there, we transferred to the 2 at Botanic Garden, on R-142 #6688! Side LCDs were off, and only the top left and bottom left LEDs on the interior signs were blinking. At one stop, instead of the doors going "ding-dong" before closing, it went, "dong [pause] ding!"
We got off at Nevins to see [a solid door leading to] the unused lower-level platform. We also noticed, in addition to the column location (e.g., to paraphrase, "NEVINS ST SOUTH PLATFORM), "FULTON ST & FLATBUSH AVE" was cast into some of the columns. We took the next to, running express up the east side, to Bowling Green, where Peggy pointed out the Shuttle platform, now barricaded by a blue plywood wall because of asbestos abatement. Thanks to congestion, the train dwelled in the station long enough for us to get off, tour, and get back on.
Peggy headed home at Grand Central, while David and I decided to continue up to the Bronx to catch another Redbird 5 express ride down the west side. Another GO had the 4 replaced by a shuttle bus from 149 to 125. Naturally, before transferring to the 5, we checked out the downtown 4 platform to see how many people were waiting for a train that wasn't coming until 5:00 A.M. Monday; there were about a dozen.
After nearly ten hours - more riding than I typically do in one week, let alone a day - it was time to go home. A huge thank you to Peggy for leading this trip; I had a great time and learned quite a bit.
Photos (and familiar-looking text) here.
From 81 St, we hopped on a C train to get to the staple of SubTalk field trips, the Franklin Ave Shuttle.
That would have been an impressive move, seeing as the C was running express that weekend. Rather, we hopped on a D train.
A huge thank you to Peggy for leading this trip; I had a great time and learned quite a bit.
Absolutely. Thank you, Peggy!
Thanks for a great report. Wish I could have been there.
Simon
Swindon UK
Yeah I would've gone but I'd also have to leave real early to get there, plus the chance of snow didn't help.
Where there's a WILL... there's a WAY.
I would have gone but I didn't finish work until 3AM do to that nice joy ride I had on the No.2 Line with a No.4 train.
........PART 3 anyone?
Randy Kennedy's Tunnel Vision column in today's Times is about the late former Transit Authority Chaplain who was known to handle a subway train on occaision.
Does anyone else get it? I love it, I was just curious of other people's opinions of it.
It's a trade journal. In other words, don't look to it as a big source of railfan type info. You'll see a LOT of advertising. Rarely if ever is something negative displayed, unless it was to show how some system dealt with a rpoblem and then pats themsevles on the shoulder for doing so.
My school library has current and back issues dating back to 1990. I read many of them. I think it's a good magazine, lots of neat info about the behind the scenes stuff.
I used to read it. Where is it published these days?
I got a free subscribtion from the website Ive been getting it for about a year now. I'll find the link again and spread the word.
Thanks
yo playland you got the link? cause i think i deleted it.
BTW to eveyrone else, at the site which i will provide one can get free subscriptions for all sorts of things, i get Law enforcement magazine, but I get it kinda officially. If you want mass transit mag just put down what I put for Job position : MTA supervisor
the address label on the mag says my First, Last Name, Address, blah blah and on top it say "MTA SUpervisor"
My take on the mag is that it is a very good trade publication overall. BUT, alot of the articles are transit 'backslapping' pieces or some interview with a transit executive explaining how he/she dealt with a particular issue or large-scale undertaking.
The photos of R/T and or bus equipment is almost always quite good, despite the lack of rail & bus fan-friendly articles.
The average buff will find MassTransit boring if they are not into the 'infrastructure' issues related to the topic.
BMTman
Obviously, infrastructure is important to people who run transit systems. And to us riders, too.
Please note that trade journals are not "backslapper central" per se. There are many which print critical articles and report bad news as well as good news.
"BUT, alot of the articles are transit 'backslapping' pieces
or some interview with a transit executive explaining how he/she dealt with a particular issue or large-scale undertaking."
Don't confuse the first with the second, though. The second kind of piece you mention can be very useful in disseminating ideas about how to solve problems. And if a problem was solved, certainly the people who solved it deserve kudos.
I find the feaure articles boring, because they are more about the finances than the actual system. And yes, it is mostly interviews with executives, who all say the same thing.
"I find the feaure articles boring, because they are more about the finances than the actual system."
I find that as interesting as the physical aspects of the system. And vital. No $$$, no transit.
" And yes, it is mostly
interviews with executives, who all say the same thing."
You're not reading very attentively. But that's OK. If you find it boring, read something else.
I agree with your points, I'm only saying MassTransit isn't for everyone in our hobby.
P.S., I'm a subscriber.
BMTman
Agreed.
It's better than Metro (a (bus) trade magazine thay doesn't know an R44 to a R9).
i'll check it out, interesting. sometimes its fun to poke at stupidity
I get both Mass Transit & Metro, and probally get more out of them then others in this group because I'm employed by a bus company.
Mass Transit has been featuring a system a month, e.g. NYC, Boston, Miami, etc. I've found those that have rapid transit operations more interesting then those with just bus routes, because "I just work for a bus company" ... that's what I say to BusTalkers who don't understand why I don't know or am not interested in lots of detail about buses & bus operations.
Mr rt__:^)
where do i get it?
i'll post the link soon. As soon as i find it again
www.masstransitmag.com
Point your browsers at:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-08/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-137546.asp
Also, there is an accompanying graphic you can click on once you get there.
I'm glad to hear that an improved transportation infrastucture is a primary goal for the planners! I heard about this on the news this morning, and hoped that I could find more detailed plans. Thank you Ron.
It never made sense to me that the E, N/R, and 1/9 were not connected when the WTC was built. Short-sighted I guess. I think it's a great idea to have an east-west hub in that area.
The article mentioned the possiblility of an LIRR connection. What line would this be, and where would it come from?
The only reservation I've had about the plans that have been discussed is about the spending of $200M+ to build a temporary PATH station. Is there really that much of a need to spend that money on a station that will only be used for 2-3 years? Is there really that much damand for a station until there are new buildings in the area for those commuters to go to? Doesn't the midtown PATH line and the WTC line originate very close to each other? I just feel like we should spend that money on something permanent, especially when Bush stated that the US will have a budget deficit for the next few years. Of course, nobody saw that coming back in 2000... :-)
Not to mention the fact that congress has been fairly scrooge-like with the money that was promised to NYC for the recovery.
To sum up though, I am in full support of a mojor public transportation hub at the new WTC!
Well, PATH needs a safe station downtown for its trains. We can't afford to be without PATH service for 5 years. Why the price tag? Don't know. Maybe that's the cumulative cost of pumping out the tunnel and rebuilding a temporary terminal.
Don't sweat it too much, though. You're talking about insurance and FEMA money, so there's not a whole lot to "save." That's money that, if not spent, ends up in somebody ese' pocket outside NY. Better to spend it than lose it.
The article mentioned the possiblility of an LIRR connection. What line would this be, and where would it come from?
That's my only question. Otherwise, this article more or less confirms my summary from a few days ago.
I assume they're discussing plans like those outlined by the MTA to connect the LIRR to the financial district. But it doesn't look like those are very far along at all ... how real is this? AND, could any of these POSSIBLY be implemented in less than 15 years?
Of course, simply incorporating a station shell or other provisions into the WTC site or this entire mega-complex would be a huge advantage 'cause it would give a focal point for future development, advocacy and funding.
The only reservation I've had about the plans that have been discussed is about the spending of $200M+ to build a temporary PATH station. Is there really that much of a need to spend that money on a station that will only be used for 2-3 years?
The havoc wreaked on local transit patterns by the closing of the downtown half of PATH needs to be addressed *ASAP*. I've seen the two-block-long lines to get into PATH at Christopher Street. It ain't pretty. And, frankly, reopening ASAP will give the PA breathing room to do the new mega-hub properly.
Is there really that much damand for a station until there are new buildings in the area for those commuters to go to?
There are still hundreds of thousands of people who work downtown. Many of them still live in NJ. Certainly the loss of 10 million sq ft of office space left a major hole in employment, but downtown is very far from a ghost town.
Doesn't the midtown PATH line and the WTC line originate very close to each other?
You can get to either one from certain points in PATH, but they are two entirely separate and distinct destinations.
Not only is downtown busy now, but many of the buildings adjacent to the WTC are still in the process of being cleaned up and are ready now but not yet re-occupied or will be occupied in April or so.
The terorists only destroyed 12 million square feet out of 80 million, and that's only the commercially available space; it doesn't even count the municipal square footage (though those folks mostly don't live in Jersey).
To reopen a thread that I've never heard a good answer for, what's stopping the E terminal at Chambers from reopening? Municipal workers from Queens could sure use it reopened.
Various posts, as well as pictures in this site, suggest that the station got a lot of dirt but no real damage. And you can definitely have large numbers exit from that station without setting foot onto the WTC site - there are other exits, some of which are now accessible from above by pedestrians without special permits.
If my read on things is accurate, at least 50% of the lost office space will be coming back within 5 years. In 10 years, you'd never know anything was missing (except for the memorial to remind you). So revitalized transit downtown is crucial.
Thanks for the link to your previous posting. I missed that over the weekend.
I've seen the two-block-long lines to get into PATH at Christopher Street. It ain't pretty. And, frankly, reopening ASAP will give the PA breathing room to do the new mega-hub properly.
I guess I didn't realize what a mess that is. I just assumed that most of the riders of PATH WTC worked at the WTC, didn't think about Wall Street, the Financial Center, and the other office spaces. (I'll drink my coffee before my first post of the day next time...)
IRT: New three-track 10-car S Ferry terminal, perhaps retaining existing 5-car turnaround loop as well.
(From WTC transit: likely & possible (long-ish)Posted by JV on Sat Jan 5 12:12:38 2002)
I hope this becomes a reality. That station should have been expanded when they started running 10 car trains through there. I hope they keep the gap fillers. Just a cool historical item.
The LIRR Connection Would Extend West From Atlantic Avenue Terminal under Atlantic Avenue (See recently discovered Atlantic Avenue Tunnel On Mr Diamond's Website) then a new tunnel under the east river and to WTC.
The LIRR Connection Would Extend West From Atlantic Avenue Terminal under Atlantic Avenue (See recently discovered Atlantic Avenue Tunnel On Mr Diamond's Website) then a new tunnel under the east river and to WTC.
How far along in the MTA planning process is this? The website just shows it as a "concept" ... and SubTalk is full of concepts.
How real? Any preliminary engineering work? Anyone got MTA inside info?
Hi - relatively new poster here, but I read all the time.
I just read the article myself and I agree with the need for some sort of temporary measure to restore downtown PATH service. I remember taking PATH to work in summer 2000 to 23rd and that was usually standing-room-only starting in Hoboken. Now without downtown, I can only imagine the overcrowding. People most likely getting off at Christopher or 9th? The crowds waiting to get on in Hoboken? I used to have to wait 2 or 3 trains to get on back then. What's it like now? Hopefully with some sort of downtown temporary service, it will relieve some of the load (crowd-wise and even electrically with more trains) on the 33rd line.
Hopefully they can make the best of the worst... that is to say, take advantage of the (unfortunate) opportunity and create something that will do just as good a job if not, a better one than before the loss.
I think the budget deficit was very forseeable the moment that our President decided to give away billons and billions to his rich pals with his tax cut for the rich and his little PR game of sending out $300 checks. I think most Americans would rather see the money used to keep the budget balanced (expect the rich, since the money they are getting is, unlike low and middle class citizens, not piddling in size).
In the meantime, [PATH] will construct a temporary station with an entrance on Church St. that could be open in 18 months to two years.
How much you want to bet that 2 years after the "temporary" station is built, that it becomes permanant? PATH isn't going to spend all that money for a short lived station. Remember the "temporary" TSQ shuttle platform? It took a fire for the TA to build a permanant one.
How much you want to bet that 2 years after the "temporary" station is built, that it becomes permanant? PATH isn't going to spend all that money for a short lived station.
Disagree, completely. The PA, amazingly, seems to have "got religion" and understand that its mission is to improve transportation in the region.
AND, better transit will greatly increase the value of the buildings that are ultimately built on top of it.
I'm normally skeptical, but in this case I think it'll happen.
Also, by moving the station back to the old Hudson terminal location eventually they avoid interference with construction of whatever might happen inside the bathtub, whether memorial or buildings or both.
Also, the Hudson temrinal is a little higher. Saves on escalator expense and also time for each individual commuter. Presumably the temporary station won't have the full complement of escalators you'd want in a finished station.
Besides, a lot of this is insurance and FEMA money. If you don't spend it, it goes away.
The insurance money won't go away if unused, and can be used by the PA (or the TA, for that matter when they get their settlement for damages to the tunnels) for other projects.
CG
"The insurance money won't go away if unused, and can be used by the PA (or the TA, for that matter when they get their
settlement for damages to the tunnels) for other projects."
Only so long as the insurers and FEMA agree that those projects are relevant to recovery. Rebuilding the South Ferry line and rebuilding PATH is. Another project might not be.
FEMA money, yes. But insurance recoveries don't require rebuilding. It's simply a cash payment to make the PA or TA "whole". They can do with it what they want.
Yes, thank you. I stand corrected.
There will be a new transit hub. The only question is when and exactly what the final form will be.
When the WTC was designed in the 60's, transit was out. The only reason the PA built the PATH station was that New Jersey required them to do it. (PATH was the trade off for building the WTC that Rockefeller wanted.)
The only reason the PA built the PATH station was that New Jersey required them to do it. (PATH was the trade off for building the WTC that Rockefeller wanted.)
I know the only reason the WTC got built on the west side rather than at the foot of Wall Street was because the PA agreed to take over the bankrupt H&MRR. That RR owned the Hudson Terminal twin-towered office building, underneath which was the original station, that was torn down for part of the WTC site.
Are you saying NJ required the PA to build a *new* PATH station in the basement of the WTC?
I've never understood why the PA built the new PATH station rather than just expanding the old Hudson Terminal station. It wasn't covered in the book on the WTC that I read over the holidays ... anyone know?
Why did the PA build a new PATH station?
Under Austin Tobin, the PA hated anything that ran on rails. The fear, as once expressed by a PA official, was that "once they got PATH, the cancer would be in their body." By building a new station, they were able to charge a good portion of the expense for the WTC foundation to PATH, which meant that they had no money left for any expansion of PATH. There were some very interesting covenants in the PA bonds of the 60's that precluded spending PA funds in excess of a certain percentage of outstanding debt on PATH. In short, the idea was to sop up the entire capital available.
(I worked for the PA from 68 to 72.)
By building a new station, they were able to charge a good portion of the expense for the WTC foundation to PATH, which meant that they had no money left for any expansion of PATH.
Now THAT makes sense. Cool, and thanks for the explanation.
Care to hazard a guess as to whether the PA will keep the 1971 station loop operable even as they build a new station in the old Hudson Terminal location? I think it would be crazy to demolish it, though you probably have to put in a 3-D wye to get the trains uphill to the new location and keeping the lower level functional.
Not to belabor the subject but in post 305903 entitiled Elexplanation Please started by American Pig, someone is offering a postcard of that Washington St El in Boston on ebay.
In case anyone wants to at least see a different view of the structure.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1057122984
Strictly speaking, George Metesky, the "Mad Bomber" of the 1950s, wasn't a terrorist, since the intent of his bombings wasn't to hit civilians for a political aim, but he certainly frightened a lot of New Yorkers a half-century ago.
One of his most frightening attacks was a bomb placed on an IND train. Why, specifically, the IND? And not the BMT or IRT? To answer that question you need to know both Metesky's motive and an important piece of subway information.
Anyone?
Is it because the IND was built by the City of New York itself, not as a private company -- and he wanted to show the Citysomething?
By then the entire subway was under public ownership.
--Andrew
Do the R-1/9 or R-10 cars have a better place to hide something?
His bombs were designed to disrupt the "dastardly" acts of Con Edison. The IND was the only subway line at that time to use ConEd power.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winnuh!!!!
Would this gentleman be the one responsible for the IND bombing at 125th St in Nov 1960 that severely damaged an R-10 and killed a woman?
The details sound right except that Metesky was arrested in 1957. I don't recall another subway bombing in the era that killed someone. The FALN was active in the same frame, but I'm not sure they ever bombed the subway.
It's apparently not him then.
Cunningham & Dehart mention in their book that R-10 #3221 was "torn apart" by a bomb on Nov 16th 1960, on a southbound A train, at 125th St, and a woman on the train, above the bomb was killed.
#3221 was supposedly repaired and returned to service.
Nope ... it was FALN ...
Thank You!
I don't know what FALN stands for.
A terrorist organization in favor of Puerto Rican independence.
Fuerza A Liberation Nacionale de Puerto Rico ... they also bombed the Capitol in DC in the 1950's and several other spots. Terroristas ...
Thanks a lot! They were initials that I was unfamiliar with.
You're most welcome ... just one of several events in my days in fun city ...
They also staged an assassination attempt on President Truman while he was at Blair House. Truman was uninjured, but a Secret Service officer died during the ensuing gunfight.
And the FALN made a machine-gun attack on Congress in 1954 that wounded 5 lawmakers.
Yep ... correct ... whenever you have whackos of whatever political affiliation doing THEIR foaming on the storm door, you get TERRORISM. What happened at WTC is only DIFFERENT foamers, but lunatics who want to harm the innocent WHEREVER are COWARDS. Let ANY such people raise an army and face the army of opposition ... but when ANYONE takes their wrath out upon the innocent, then they shall pay the price of GOD. Even the Q'oran teaches this ...
But there be twisted political passions posing under the NAME of God who have repeatedly done attrocities. LoV ... Lo, Verily. Sorry, but God never meant for us to take life *so* seriously either. :)
But yes, FALN really BLEW the cause ... in all the votes among los Puretoriquenos (sorry, can't figure out how to do the "enyah") it's come close, but the legacy of FALN has defied statehood ever since.
Strictly speaking, George Metesky, the "Mad Bomber" of the 1950s, wasn't a terrorist, since the intent of his bombings wasn't to hit civilians for a political aim, but he certainly frightened a lot of New Yorkers a half-century ago.
One of his most frightening attacks was a bomb placed on an IND train. Why, specifically, the IND? And not the BMT or IRT? To answer that question you need to know both Metesky's motive and an important piece of subway information.
George Metesky originally was from Waterbury, Connecticut, where I lived until a few years ago. One day back in the mid-1970's, I went into a newsstand in downtown Waterbury to get something and saw a number of people with notepads and cameras, obviously newspaper people, and also a couple of TV news trucks parked outside. I gathered from the conversation that Metesky was being released from prison and was returning to Waterbury to move in with his sister. He apparently was travelling on one of the intercity buses that stopped at this newsstand. Not being particularly interested in the events - the bombings were before my time and I wasn't a rail or subway fan back then - I left before Metesky arrived.
If I recall correctly, he died not long after coming back to Waterbury.
Paul, Metesky was a Con Ed worker who -- as far as I recall -- was just a guy w/o any particular agenda. I think he was just bonkers which explains why he worked for Con Ed....;-D
BMTman
Paul, Metesky was a Con Ed worker who -- as far as I recall -- was just a guy w/o any particular agenda. I think he was just bonkers which explains why he worked for Con Ed....;-D
He had been injured while working for one of Con Ed's predecessors but had his disability claim rejected.
He was left with a breathing disorder because of an accident in a Con Ed plant and his Workman's Comp claim was denied.
We all know about disgruntled employees ("Going Postal") who return to their workplace and shoot it up, or loners who shoot up a fast food. But as savage as these are, these are culminating, dramatic events, that play themselves out in one big act.
What's sets Metesky apart is that noone could figure our the motive as the bombings mounted. He decided he could get even with Con Ed by bombing facilities that used Con Ed services (IND, movie theater, etc.). This meant almost everything in the City except the BMT and IRT. This is illogical, even for a warped mind.
He had an accident at the Con Edison plant where he worked and because of it got a breathing disorder and was denied workman's compensation. Whether this guy was a nut or not the fact that he got ripped off should be plain as the noses on your faces. When business treat their workers like pieces of raw meat it shouldn't be surprising when workers go off half cocked. The God-damn bottom line should not preclude management from putting their employees first.
Reading a little further, it is not certain that the accident caused his breathing difficulty--he may have contracted TB.
Be that as it may, even if Con Ed was 100% wrong, bombing innocent people (or even guilty people for that matter) is generally frowned upon. And you can't miss that his revenge was exceptionally weird--how could he possibly have thought that bombing things that used Con Ed electricity (including the subway train and a movie theater) could possibly punish Cod Ed in any way?
Ever measure the current draw on a 10 car R10 train? I'm sure the meter noticed. But yeah, mighty twisted logic ...
Right you are, BUT if Con Edison had treated this man decently this could have been avoided. No one in their right mind Paul would condone what this guy did. I just believe it could have been avoided if he was treated in a fair manner. These violent outbursts by disgruntled employees is happening more and more, and the bottom line is that it always seems the worker was being given the shaft when he let loose his anger. Let's face it, our history is not replete with management treating their employees in a dignified manner.
>>> if Con Edison had treated this man decently this could have been avoided <<<
What makes you think Con Edison did not treat him decently? The denial of a Workers Compensation claim is not done by the employer. It is done by the insurance carrier, with appropriate appeal rights. The fact that this worker had his claim denied and he believed the denial was unjust does not indicate that the employer did anything wrong, or that the denial was improper.
Tom
I read his first-person story in the Reader's Digest, back in the 60s as I recall. He hated ConEd. He wanted to get even.
You cannot trust little guys with big knowledge, and expect them to behave humbly when you screw them.
Lots of literature on the subject. Matetsky lived @ #17 4th St. in Waterbury, Ct. He worked for United Electric & Power which was 'absorbed' by Con Ed. He had an on the job accident and subsequently developed TB. He claimed that it was job related but it could not be proven and the claim was denied. Hence, his grudge against Con Ed.
Lots of literature on the subject. Matetsky lived @ #17 4th St. in Waterbury, Ct.
Interesting trivia point - Metesky did his bombings in NYC, where most of the streets and avenues are numbered, and lived on one of the only five numbered streets in Waterbury.
Here's a comic book cover from 1945 showing Captain America thwarting an attempt to rob an IND money train. Why the IND? Probably no reason. Or can anyone here think of one? The rendering is quite accurate for a comic book.
http://www.crosswinds.net/~testiculos/capam/CaptainAmerica48.jpg
Here's another comic book subway question. In the interior of another Captain America comic book (#3 from 1941) a subway kiosk is shown which says "BRT SUBWAY SYSTEM." Was BRT signage still existing at this late date?
Alan Glick
Here's another comic book subway question. In the interior of another Captain America comic book (#3 from 1941) a subway kiosk is shown which says "BRT SUBWAY SYSTEM." Was BRT signage still existing at this late date?
Through the '50s and part of tyhe '60s there were survivals of BRT signage. One example that comes to mind is that the tokens booth on the Broadway Line has little metal logo plates that said "Broadway BMT Subway." However, you could clearly so that an "M" was painted over an "R" on many of these. Wear away the paint and...
However, most of the signs on the Dual Contract lines for the BRT/BMT original said neither. They said MUNICIPAL RAILWAY which was later painted over to BMT LINES.
However, most of the signs on the Dual Contract lines for the BRT/BMT original said neither. They said MUNICIPAL RAILWAY which was later painted over to BMT LINES.
The scene in question was in Manhattan so it was a Dual Contract Kiosk. I guess they were just going on memory.
Alan Glick
Here's another comic book subway question. In the interior of another Captain America comic book (#3 from 1941) a subway kiosk is shown which says "BRT SUBWAY SYSTEM." Was BRT signage still existing at this late date?
Through the '50s and part of tyhe '60s there were survivals of BRT signage. One example that comes to mind is that the tokens booth on the Broadway Line had little metal logo plates that said "Broadway BMT Subway." However, you could clearly so that an "M" was painted over an "R" on many of these. Wear away the paint and...
However, most of the signs on the Dual Contract lines for the BRT/BMT original said neither. They said MUNICIPAL RAILWAY which was later painted over to BMT LINES.
Speaking of the Golden Age of comics and trains, I have a reprinted Wonder Woman story from 1945 or so where she (disguised as Diana Prince, of course) and boyfriend Steve Trevor are aboard the "20th Century Limited" from Chicago to New York (did that really exist?) In the Bronx it slows down to let a Westchester commuter train (New York Central?) pass it. That commuter train contains a criminal named "Sure-shot" Hogan, who tries to shoot Steve as they pass. Diana makes him duck, and soon superheroics ensue!
They don't make comics like they used to!
:-) Andrew
...aboard the "20th Century Limited" from Chicago to New York (did that really exist?)
It most certainly did. The train was the New York Central's flagship all-Pullman, extra-fare train from New York to Chicago, over the Water Level Route. It was the direct (and more successful) competition for the Pennsylvania Railroad's Broadway Limited. Both trains ran on the same schedule and ran side-by-side just outside of Chicago for quite some distance. I have ridden both, late in their glory days but before they hit bottom; most of my rides were on the Broadway but I've made two round trips on the Century as well. Mother preferred the PRR trains, with good reason I believe; while the service and accomodations were excellent either way, the Pennsy was just a little bit nicer and their menus were certainly more to our liking as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I had a good time (see other post) on Amtrak's Broadway Limited. Still had the old equipment too, and maintained fairly well.
But "on the Water Level Route you can sleep." ;-)
There certainly was a train by that name, but I don't remember its route.
I once rode the Broadway Limited when Amtrak was still running the old sleeper cars with the "sleeperette" bunk compartments. Tiny, but cute, and it was only one night till we got to Chicago.
This brings up the question of new-time terrorism.
Suppose someone commandeers a rush-hour train heading into Grand Central or some other large stop, and throws it into reverse or something like that (I think it's best to be deliberately vague on this) to derail it. That could easily kill hundreds, even thousands of people, not to mention take an entire route out of service for weeks or months, if done at the proper points. Stanchions could be taken out which would jeopardize the structural integrity of the station. Surely there are security measures in place, but someone with a little knowledge could easily avert them. (After all, on at least one occasion in recent history a drunk T/O can accidentally derail a train and kill a number of people, so a sober person intending to derail one could do a far more effective job.) If necessary, an accomplice could acquire yard access and make modifications (again, being vague) to the vehicle to be hijacked so the security measures will fail.
It's really scary. Even with all the security on commercial airliners, it's still easy enough to get control of a smaller plane and crash it into a building (done last week), a truck filled with some sort of hazardous material (which the 9/11 hijackers apparently were interested in), or a train which could be derailed to send it careening through a station.
Worse yet, there really isn't much that can be done security-wise to stop it. Maybe it can be made more difficult, but someone with the resources and the will could probably get around anything thrown in the way.
Worse yet, there really isn't much that can be done security-wise to stop it.
Makes those double-width cabs a little more palatable, doesn't it? Not sure if they're truly any more secure than the old ones, but they sure seem like it.
>>Makes those double-width cabs a little more palatable, doesn't it? Not sure if they're truly any more secure than the old ones, but they sure seem like it. <<
I'd think less so, since you could take a running start to slam into the cab.
(Of course, you might go all the way through and get dragged under the train if you try too hard. What a pity...)
I don't see why. Consider the R-62(A) transverse cab -- it's just the standard corner cab unfolded. The door and lock are identical. If anything, the removeable panel that functions as the wall to the left of the door might be susceptible to attack.
Suppose someone commandeers a rush-hour train heading into Grand Central or some other large stop, and throws it into reverse or something like that
Your imagination is working overtime. I'm pretty sure that if someone threw a train into reverse, even at 40 - 50 MPH you'd simply trip the overloads andd the train would lose power and coast to a stop.
Hmmm - are you implying there's NO way to derail a train? If not, I'm sure there's someone out there who'd figure it out and exploit it...
Even if some mechanical failure were needed, I'd imagine that could be arranged by having an accomplice "modify" the train ahead of time.
I am implying nothing of the sort. There are dozens of ways to derail a train. You just cannot do it by throwing the reverser. I think your pre-occupation with derailing a train is somewhat suspect. However, if you really want to see how it can be done, watch some old westerns and see how they accomplished derailing the iron horse.
You could do a WHOLE lot more damage with a *BUS* ... you may be comforted somewhat to know that if a terrorist threw the reverser, the train would probably just go dark and dump. With curve timers, you really wouldn't get up to enough speed to do more than peel a wall and maybe seriously injure a handful of people. I doubt anyone would try to pull a scenario like that, and as an additional assurance, trains do not carry combustibel fuel.
Now on the OTHER hand, someone trying to park a bus on Penn Station's escalator might do a whole lot more damage but damn ... that entrance is no longer available from the street. Even for a bus. About the best a terrorist could do is get people all worked up about things that aren't practical, no offense intended. FEAR is the fuel of terrorism.
However, you could take a bus and run it full speed northbound and downhill on Park Ave. across 42nd St. and into Grand Central. The north side sidewalk on 42nd St. in front of the terminal might be a good place to put some of those big concrete barriers they have outside the U.S. Capitol and White House in Washington.
Yeah, but again the issue is terrorizing as many as possible - and something of that scope would be like wrecking a subway train. Penny ante to the mindset. These clowns pull things like the WTC bombing, the WTC dropping and POSSIBLY the anthrax scare ... things that make EVERYBODY shaky ... I don't see them pulling something so *small* which would only make those who go through GCT nervous. Certainly not of the kind of scope that emptied all those airliners if you get the point I'm trying to make.
How many people are whacking out over the kid that flew his plane into the building in Tampa? Running a bus or a train into a terminal would have about the same impact. That ain't their game ...
Depends on what was in the bus, of course. Your run-of-the-mill NYCTA omnibus wouldn't do much structural damage, but if someone got a hold of a used bus and loaded the undercarriage down with some high explosives and ran that down Park Ave. towards 42nd, then you would have some major damage if it could get inside the terminal building.
Of course, you could also just fill beer and soda cans with the same explosives, roll a few out on the nation's highways and wait for the inevtiable can-crushing vehicle to arrive. Not as much damage in one shot, but more fear generated across the country, especially if the can was on a bridge or overpass...
Interesting concepts to be sure, and ones most folks who are in the "paranoia" realm have considered. I'm aware of several other "ideas" as well but would rather not put them out there where some moron like that kid in Florida would be inspired to do something stupid. Hope you can understand ... but seriously, aside from idiots, those ideas would not really appeal to someone with a motivation of "do the unexpected and do it in such a way that it'll scare people in every one horse town along with the victims" ... sorta like the several months where everybody, no matter where they lived, if they heard a plane, they dropped all other thoughts ... that's what terrorist types plan on doing, not the mundane ... I really think we should leave it there.
Terrorism is VERY logical although that logic defies most. Then you have your powdered letter writers and kids who think Osama Bin Shaved are kewl. I'd rather not feed THAT bear ...
Depends on what was in the bus, of course. Your run-of-the-mill NYCTA omnibus wouldn't do much structural damage, but if someone got a hold of a used bus and loaded the undercarriage down with some high explosives and ran that down Park Ave. towards 42nd, then you would have some major damage if it could get inside the terminal building.
Or use a propane tanker, you wouldn't need any high explosives.
"if someone got a hold of a used bus and loaded the undercarriage down with some high explosives and ran that down Park Ave. towards 42nd, then you would have some major damage if it could get inside the terminal building."
Long before 9/11, it was announced that the Salt Lake City light rail system would not be allowed to directly serve the opening and closing ceremonies of the Olympics for security reasons, at the insistence of the Secret Service and other police agencies. Instead, buses would be used to shuttle between the ceremony site and the nearest operating station on the main line of the light rail. This was after an extension of the light rail system to the university and its stadium had been built for the express purpose of serving the Olympics!
The decision perplexed and confounded a lot of people, who couldn't understand what a terrorist could do with a light rail car that they couldn't do with buses. It was pointed out by many that a bus could be stolen (or a legally-bought used bus painted to fit with the other buses), filled with explosives, and lined up with the other shuttle buses right by the stadium, while a light rail car would always be in the control of the transit authority and couldn't be taken elsewhere to be so booby-trapped.
At the time (pre-9/11, mind you), I actually sent an e-mail to the relevant Secret Service office pointing this out politely. While I haven't suddenly developed a "shadow" in a trenchcoat wearing an earpiece and speaking into his sleeve :^) I never got an answer back, either.
I supposed their light rail logic makes about as much sense as Rudy's fear that some terrorist would do something like light a shoe bomb off on the No. 6 train at the City Hall loop. It might be possible, but since you can't direct a rail car to go as many different places as a bus can - you're pretty much limited to "forward" and "backwards" with a train -- it would seem that a bus bomb threat would be a far more realistic possibility.
Usually if a train is bombed it is to get at something on the train, and then you don't sneak it on board, you just plant the bomb in the tracks and wait for it to come to you.
Anyone whe ever watched Hogan's Heroes knows that. :)
Mark
This is why we now have those ugly concrete barricades around GCT, Lincoln Center, etc. Keep the trucks far enough away so that you can't demolish a major landmark. You can still kill some people but not make such a major statement any more, at least not with conventional explosives.
you could take a bus and run it full speed northbound and downhill on Park Ave. across 42nd St. and into Grand Central. The north side sidewalk on 42nd St. in front of the terminal might be a good place to put some of those big concrete barriers
There have been concrete Jersey barriers paralleling the curb outside all the entrances to Grand Central since late September, IIRC. Makes getting cabs a little more challenging.
The exception is the Lexington Avenue corridor through the Grand Hyatt that leads into the concourse. Not sure why they didn't do that one. But otherwise, they're way ahead of ya ....
We've discovered that some of our inventory of the book "New York City Subway Cars" has defective binding (the entire cover pops right off the book with minimal effort) so we tried to call Xplorer Press but the phone number we had for them is disconnected. The web site http://www.xplorerpress.com/ also lacks a phone number. Does anyone have a current phone number for these people? Thanks.
Yor're right about the phone number, however a brief visit to the site revealed the apparently current address: Xplorer Press, P.O. Box 516, W. Orange, NJ 07052. Perhaps a NJ Phone book might have a phone number, or their web provider might have a contact number. Barring that, there's always the old fashioned way - a letter.
does anyone want one. I just got 100 of them, (Can;t say from were), but if you want one E-Mail me and I will send you more info. (All cards have never been programed.)
Robert
Is there something special about them, or are they just part of another advertising campaign?
MetroCards with adv. have been few and far between of late. Plus those that did come out had low volumns, e.g. the previous "Paint the Town Red" car was gone before many of us knew it came out (I got lucky & was at a show just after they came out). Therefore, if you are a collector you're anxious to grab one because of past problems getting them.
I have two friends who are looking out for one for me.
Mr rt__:^)
Mr. T. Check your email for a glimspe at the 'Paint the Town Red, White and Blue' card...
'Paint the Town...' is the trademark or slogan of the NYC Bureau of Tourism, so it is not a vendor-MetroCard in the truist sense of the term.
BMTman
Something special about these is the bold legend at the bottom "Buy MetroCard online metrocard.citysearch.com"
Per the posting by subway-buff, the TA announced these cards in a Stations Bulletin dated 12/27/01, and the first set became available at stations on 1/7/02
What this has to do with anything is that MetroCard.CitySearch.com stopped accepting new orders as of December 1, 2001. Current subscription orders were processed through December 31, 2001 putting them out of the MetroCard business one week before the riding public saw the first of these cards.
I guess it comes down to what would the MTA take more criticism for…putting out a run of Metrocards with obsolete information and hoping no one notices, or canceling the run and eating the cost of replacements.
Since no one else has remarked on this, it looks like the MTA guessed right.
PLEASE SEND INFO ON METROCARD............THANK YOU
Yesterday while I was at 207 Yard I was talking to the TSS in charg of new cars. He told me that one was coming last night, if they were able to come down from the plant. Four cars will come down Monday - Thursday with Friday the four get shiped some were for prep. and testing. As for the test it's two more day untill the end, Thats if the clock had not been reset in the past few days. So eveyone start saying go buy to the R40S, R40M & R42 from the L line and say hello to the R143's.
Robert
if they're just about done with the 30 day test, that's pretty damn good. how many times was the clock rest on the 142's? seems they got a lot of the bugs out with through the 142 test.
There are 4 more R-143s at East NY Shop now. From a reliable source, 4 will be delivered weekly starting quite soon. That same source reportes that it looks like the R-143 will not only pass its 30 day qualifying test but will do so in record time
Kudos to Kawasaki and the TA for an impressive achievement.
Can't wait to ride in them, although I don't ride on the Eastern Division. I am sure if not that, the R-160's will ride on the Southern Division.
When are the R160's schedule to arrive?
Some time after they're ordered, which hasn't happened yet.
David
R142s and R142As were ordered in April 1997. They arrived in December 1999 I believe. R143s were ordered in December 1998, they arrived in April 2001. So, I'm guessing a year and a half maybe. Remember, the R142s and R142As were late.
Word is, once the L is all full up, others will go the M ... the M should appear here and there on the southern division, it'll just be a while. They're *VERY* nice cars ...
I know you've already been in them - from what I've seen (and I got just as close to their innards and bottoms as you did) I think you'll be VERY happy with them if they ever find their way north to YOUR shop. VERY nice units, seem to be quite accessible for components and felt VERY solid. These ain't no IRT cars. :)
Seriously, they're VERY nice ...
I am happy to see they are doing better then the R142A's during the testing.
Prohibited thought ... now salute that BOARD, mister! Good penance. You may stand now. :)
Those 4 in ENY might be used for schoolcar purposes. Came directly from a 30-day test guy (TSS?) in a vest who told me. He came into the cab at Bedford to help the T/O in the tube.
GM just returned my wheels at my expense which had a loose computer bus ground connection buried undercar on the transmission. Hopefully, last day to ride subways to yard: R142 I was on had door indication problems that the RCI had no idea how to check and clear (shudda called the 'Juice!') Amtrak is being sued by Bombardier for $200 Million for Accela delivery failures based upon poor trackage not allowing full high speed service. My point? Bombardier was well aware of what NYC subway trackage was all about and never considered truck design changes. R143s should do well after the teething. CI Peter
Last night, after visiting some friends in Queens, I attempted to take advantage of the nighttime G service to travel to Brooklyn, only to be thwarted by the fact that it was terminating at Bedford/Nostrand instead of Smith/9th, which is where I wanted to go. My own fault, I guess, for not paying attention to G.O.'s. Since B/N is in the middle of nowhere as far as transfers are concerned, I went way out of my way, transferring to the L at Metropolitan/Lorimer to 14th to transfer to a W and used the BMT 4th Ave. line instead of the 9th St. IND. to get home to Park Slope. It's rare to see subway service stop in the middle of the line where no connections to other lines exist, and it was a pain in the neck for me last night. Where's the Second System when you need it?
The good news is that the immediate area is much safer now than even two years ago.
The G was running in two sections. One from Forest Hills to B/N, the other from B/N to Hoyt-Schemerhorn. No service from Hoyt to Smith-9th.
You could have just waited for the other half of the G to come in. Of course, then you would have had to transfer to the A and then again to the F.
CG
Had I known this, I may have done so, but it still would have been 2 transfers either way. I wonder if they were using the middle track for turnarounds. That would have been interesting to witness.
Shuttle from B/N to Hoty street is on a signle track with the other one truning around in the middle track.
Robert
BTW, the LCD rollsign displayed "TO BEDFORD/NOST", but, strangely, no "G". I thought I was seeing things till the C/R confirmed the mirage in his PA announcements.
"confirmed the mirage"
I should have said, "confirmed it was not a mirage"
It's an R-46 quirk. They can only display route letters along with "approved" routings and destinations. They can also display the name of any B Division station, but the letter is blank.
Hello fellow subtalkers,
I was wondering if anybody here works for the TA's Information Technology department? I applied to a position there and would like to ask you a question or two.. Could you either post a response here, or write me an email by clicking here? Thanks!
Wayne
A wire problem at 8:20 AM today has completely disrupted all SEPTA regional rail service. SEPTA is having to single track through 30th St. and trains are running with delays of an hour or more.
ha ha!
I visited St. Louis over the weekend and figured that someone might care about the condition of the two New York rapid transit cars that are stored at the Museum of Transport... or not. Anyway, here it is.
Brooklyn Rapid Transit #1365, a 1904 (I think) Jewett composite semiconvertible (BU class), is stored in one of MoT's open-sided barns. It is in okay shape, although virtually no upkeep has been done to it. The coupler is falling off one end, and it may have other structural problems. It is on display. BTW, I didn't know these things had rheostat control!
Hudson & Manhattan #256 is the oldest "Black Car" still existing. I don't remember which series it was. It is in extremely horrible shape after being stored outside for 35 years and not getting any attention whatsoever. It is now stored in an open-sided barn, but it still hasn't had any work done on it. The sides are almost completely rusted away along the floor line, and it appears that the structure of the car has been severely weakened by rusted carlines and posts. Its remains are on display. IMHO, this car ought to be deaccessioned and brought back to the East where someone may care about it.
Frank Hicks
>>Hudson & Manhattan #256 is the oldest "Black Car" still existing. I don't remember which series it was. It is in extremely horrible shape after being stored outside for 35 years and not getting any attention whatsoever. It is now stored in an open-sided barn, but it still hasn't had any work done on it. The sides are almost completely rusted away along the floor line, and it appears that the structure of the car has been severely weakened by rusted carlines and posts. Its remains are on display. IMHO, this car ought to be deaccessioned and brought back to the East where someone may care about it. <<
If you think that is bad - you should see the Hi-V car at Branford/Shoreline Trolley Museum. With the rust holes at the ceiling and floor lines I wonder what keeps it together.
You mean the Hi-V prototype?
Of course - car 3662.
That's not a prototype. It was one of 50 deck roof Hi-Vs. They were designed to accommodate center doors without the need for fish belly sills. I noticed the body rot on it the last time I saw it. The Bondo Squad would have their work cut out for them with that car!
Seashore has Hi-V 3352 (3350 - 3516 = 1904/05) which has had her center door removed, Shoreline's 3662 (3650 - 3699 Deck Roof 1907/08) was left as she was at the end of her career on the system.
Mr rt__:^)
Actually car 3662's condition is not that bad and it operates.
Most of the problems are sheet metal decay.
Jeff,
When I was last at Branford - about a year and a half ago on a Transit Museum trip - I had the opportunity to ride on 3662. What I saw was sickening, the floors near the doors had big holes in them, the sides at the roofline also had big holes with them. You say "Just sheet metal decay" as if it wasn't as important as the car being able to move.
The fact that the car operates means nothing if the rest of the car is deteriorating around it.
As a member of Branford (#1705) for over 18 years, I was very disappointed. I know that priorities are set on restoration of the various pieces of equipment housed there but some measures have to be taken to slow down or prevent the deterioration from getting so bad. The fact that Brandord/Shoreline is right next to a body of salt water doesn't help matters.
I guess in 2002 I am going to have to mark my quarterly contributions specifically for 3662 instead of the general operating fund.
Allan
Most of the deterioration happened while the car was stored
outside. Since being housed, the car is stabilized. In fact,
some work has been done on the roofing panels and storm doors.
In the realm of cars in museums, 3662 is about a 5 out of 10
in terms of condition.
3662 is on the list that the "3/4 Ton Crew" is interested in working on after we finish 6688 (she's scheduled for her top coat of paint this Spring). However, we need some more training to be able to attempt the kind of work she needs.
If there was someone who was willing to step forward to lead this project he would likely get a group of eager trainees. Meanwhile there is plunty of work to be done on most of the other 15 or so subway cars there, so we'll have no problem finding something meaningful and satisfing to do, e.g. PCC 1001 needs a re-paint; BU 1227 needs a new porch & other wood work; R-9 1689 needs some cosmetic work & has a few air leaks; Lo-V 5466 needs some general TLC; H&M 503 is almost ready to come out & play with the others (structural work on rotted floor is almost done); etc.
The point here is that Branford has quite a few folks very busy in a number of areas (there's still quite a large "trolley" staff), but there is room for many more who would prefer to work on subway/elavated cars & if they happen to have some specific skills that would be great (I'm pritty good with a hammer & nails, a putty knife or a paint brush).
Meanwhile we'll be the only place in the World that you can still take a ride in a Hi-V or a BU elevated gate car (I can't wait for "Member's Day" when they to put the Gate car & "G" back togather just for fun).
Mr rt__:^)
That museum, like many others, is a dump. The BRT car had no identification when I visited, and no one on the Museum staff even knew what it was! There's also a NYC S motor being scrapped by Mother Nature on the same site, within 50 feet or so of the BRT car. A trip to the museum near St. Louis is not good for a railfan's heart or soul. Fifty years ago we use to joke about "Rust in Peace". Well, here it is!
St. Louis is a graveyard, unfortunately, years ago. they had more credibility with railroad managements than most museums so they were able to acquire equipment that other museums were prohibited from acquiring, this equipment was then left to die a slow death. There are a few bright spots, however NYC 4-8-2 2933 is slowly being stabilized and Erie Lackawanna MFE36D6 (SD45)3607 is every bit as beautiful as she was when built (courtesy of the ELHS Boyz) but for the most part, St Louis could use some collection management.
The St. Louis museum, which used to be known as the National Museum of Transport, traditionally did a good job of living up to its nickname: Trashport. For years the collection was left to rust and rot. However, when I was there this time, I was impressed by the progress that the volunteers at MoT are making. Most of the equipment on display, including the BRT car, has new yellow metal signs with information on the car's history. They have recently put an operating electric line into operation, and this year they tripled their operating roster: to their Philly PCC they added a Chicago "single-6000" rapid transit car and a beautifully restored interurban car from the St. Louis Waterworks line. I was also impressed by the generally good shape of their steam collection; most engines appear to have been repainted within the past 5-10 years, a claim that IRM for one can't make.
MoT certainly has a long way to go. The NYC S-motor is in poor shape, but the Illinois Terminal Class-B and Class-C motors are considerably worse and are also stored outside. Most of the electric collection needs attention, although most of it is protected from further damage by being inside their (closed-to-the-public) trolley barn. MoT has been repainting a few of their electric cars - the Milwaukee Road bi-polar, the Waterworks interurban, and the Philly PCC they're currently painting green and cream - but the thing that will allow them to keep working on pulling these cars back from the brink will be more money and more volunteers.
Frank Hicks
BTW, I didn't know these things had rheostat control!
They don't. The washtub you see under the car is an early form
of Westinghouse Unit Switch control, known as the "turret" design.
It was only used between 1903 and 1905 then WH went over to the
inline design. I believe a small number were used in Chicago
wooden elevated cars, but no examples were saved.
Cab Signals have just been installed between CP-147 and CP-192 on the NS Amtrak Line. I believe that Amtrak owns this western segment of the NS Michigan Line (formerly CR), but it is dispatched and maintained by NS. Anywho, Amtrak passenger trains are the primary traffic on this line and a cab signal upgrade was long in comming. The FRA has now OKed 90mph operation between MP 150 and MP 190 on the line for two Amtrak trains, 351-07 and 364-07 (NS Designations). These will be the only two 90 mph trains for now. You can see an employee timetable of the line at:
http://www.geocities.com/crquality1/NSMichiganline2.jpeg
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I guess Geocities dosen't like direct linking. Hit refresh after it says the page does not exist. Then it works fine.
This is all very nice, but we have a beleagured "corridor" with
1) NS dispatching shenanigans between Chicago and Porter
2) Amtrak switching and taxiing shenanigans Dearborn-Detroit
3) US Customs abuses and shenanigans on the International that Amtrak is too chicken-hearted to confront
All of which lead to a 50% on-time performance. Going 90 vs 79MPH will do little to improve things.
Welcome back,
I just wanted to repost the poll so everyone can have a chance to vote. As a reminder, polling will close at 1:00 PM on Thursday, January 10th, and I will repost a message daily. Click here To see the details within the original post. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
I was on a Q Local till Church Avenue and crossed over for a Q Express. I get on and the C/R says there's a problem with the P.A. and says we won't move till the problem is fixed. I sit and wait. I knew what was going on. It was the idiots from my school who broke into a cab and made dumb announcements. Then a cop walked by looking into every car for the perp. And another walked by checking the cab door locks. And we didn't move for 15 minutes. CAN THEY DO THIS? I mean, if they do, they mine as well kick everyone off for holding a door. BTW, that cab door is easy to get into. 1 kick and it opens. I've leaned on some that have opened. But I unlocked them and closed them (otherwise it won't close). It would've sucked if the cop checking locks tried the one infront of me and it opens.
I was on a Q Local till Church Avenue and crossed over for a Q Express. I get on and the C/R says there's a problem with the P.A. and says we won't move till the problem is fixed. I sit and wait. I knew what was going on. It was the idiots from my school who broke into a cab and made dumb announcements. Then a cop walked by looking into every car for the perp. And another walked by checking the cab door locks. And we didn't move for 15 minutes. CAN THEY DO THIS? I mean, if they do, they mine as well kick everyone off for holding a door. BTW, that cab door is easy to get into. 1 kick and it opens. I've leaned on some that have opened. But I unlocked them and closed them (otherwise it won't close). It would've sucked if the cop checking locks tried the one infront of me and it opens.
An annoying delay, to be sure, but I can understand why it would be unwise to send the train out with unauthorized people in a cab and making false P.A. annoucements. For example, they could announce that there was a fire or a crime in progress and that the train had to be evacuated at the next stop. That could create a dangerous panic situation.
Or start fooling with other stuff.
Same thing happened to me on an M trian going down 4th Ave a couple of weeks ago. The crew didn't seem to care. They stopped playing around eventually... after making perv announcements and trying to announce 36th street, but screwed up one of the transfers.
The Brighton line is always known for that type of stuff. When I used it during my high school years, kids would break into a cab on the R68 and start making perverse annoucements.
CAN THEY DO THIS?
What a silly question. They did it, right? actually, they ARE required to do it for your safety.
A few weeks ago I wrote about a screw up on Dec 22 on the Ronkonkoma 2:42 p.m. to Penn. The planned consist never made it out of the yard and the inbound 2:36 short turned to protect the schedule. However, the train came in on platform A while everybody was waiting for the train on platform C.
The public affairs dept. called me today. (I called them yesterday to find out why there wasn't an answer.) The rep told me she checked the timex log and report logs and told me the train had equipment problems. WRONG! The planned outbound train had equipment problems, not the train that short turned. I told her this is what a conductor on the short turned train told me.
The point I made to her is why the inbound train didn't come in on platform C where everybody was waiting for the train. She assured me that the track wasn't open. I told her that didn't make any sense. The connecting train from Greenport (the train I was on) discharged on C and pulled west out of the way to clear for the 2:42.
I also pointed out that the crew didn't make any public explanation for the delay. She said she would report to operations that crews should report to passengers the reason for delays.
As for why the inbound train didn't pull into platform C where everybody was waiting, a rep from Transportation will call me within 2 weeks with details.
Stay tuned. The saga continues.
Michael
Dude, all this stuff because you had to go downstairs, walk over and go upstairs again.
Yeah, really....he must be in need of a life, eh?
I've got far worse things going on in my life and I don't let the little shit like having to cross a bridge to get to a different platform, OR the train running a few minutes late, bother me.
Trains have been breaking down and running late since they were invented.
I hope you aren't going too far out of your way for this complaint procedure. Unless you are really disabled or you saw someone else who was, and the walking was a ordeal for them, it probably wasn't worth it. As for the poor announcements, I can sympathize there. Look in the archives for my Acela Screw Up posts.
The elevator was out of service that day for the handicapped.
It seems strange. Some complaints or threads can go on forever but I raise a point of delay and I get dumped on. Look at the messages about the fool who train surfed. Incredible number of messages about somebody who did something stupid.
Michael
Holding firm in Washington, DC
You are getting dumped on because in this instance, most people think that you are wasting your breath complaining to LIRR for something, that as a railfan, you are more likely to know is unreasonable. Personally, having read yours and others postings, I honestly feel from an operations perspective, LIRR made the right decisions. But, when it came to communicating the info to you, it sounds like they didn't do too well.
Man, get a grip! You just don't give up. So you had to walk up and down from platform C to A or B. Are you disabled? If you are, there are elevators. If you are not, say a prayer. I am the parent of a disabled young adult. He can walk stairs, albeit with some difficulty. He can and does use conventional mass transit. Kwitcherbeefin'.
You are right, the L.I.R.R. is wrong! The L.I.R.R. should have announced, should have been wiser in positioning the equipement.
Complaining to them is like taking a walk on the beach and speaking to the Ocean about making the beach wet.
Move on, and expect surprises to pop up in your life.
avid
If nothing else, I'm holding their feet to the fire. The more people that get involved, the more they will remember. If you want change, you have to fight for it. I'm guessing that's why Straphangers have a committee. (I don't live in the New York metro area so I don't know their exact name.)
By forcing the public affairs to go back to the records, I'm showing her that she needs to do more research and not give a glib answer, which is what I expect most people expect. When you show that you know more than the railroad thinks you know, they take you more seriously and take a closer look at the situation.
Slowly, I've managed to change MARC management. They scheduled my AM train at a time that was impossible to maintain. Also, an Amtrak train interferred with the smooth operation of my train. After pounding for about 6 months, the Amtrak train schedule for #151 was changed.
Michael
You are likely holding no one's feet to any fire. More likely you've become an inter-office joke or a mild nuiscence. Frankly, if it were an frequent occurence I could see your efforts as worthwhile but for a one-time incident, I think your time and efforts could be better spent. As suggested by that early FOX network show, "GET A LIFE!
One evening last week, I was at Herald Square, and I needed a B or D. As I'm sure you're aware, the B stops on the southbound express track and the D stops on the northbound express track. I went down downstairs to the northbound platform, where I saw that the express track was vacant but a B was loading on the other platform. So I crossed up and over, reaching the B as the doors closed in my face. (Some idiot actually felt the need to laugh at me at that point.) So I went back up and over to await the next train, most likely a D.
Do you think I should file a formal complaint? Or, perhaps, should I accept that, once in a while, a train just might not be on the most convenient track for me?
David:
Did you have to stand in the cold like I did waiting for the train at Ronkonkoma? NO!!
Did you face a mass of humanity coming towards you on the staircase? NO!!
Were you concerned that if the train left you behind, the next one would be ONE HOUR LATER? NOOOOO!!!
It never ceases to amaze me the courage some writers have when they don't have all the facts.
I should keep track of the writers who complained vociferously about my posts so when they get so high and mighty about their problems, I can say "Get a life!! The subway got you to where you wanted to go."
It seems some writers act like Gods and stand in judgement as to whether a post of others is significant.
Michael
Undeterred in Washington, DC
Make sure you keep my name, because *I* have no sympathy for whiners.
And if such a situation DID happen to me, I CERTAINLY wouldn't come onto anything on the Internet to do the whining. Has as much effect as fart in the wind....
If you are from Washington, DC, how often do you ride the RR? It's likely not too frequently. Okay, what sort of response from the LIRR are you looking for? Do you want an apology? If so you may get one but how will you know it's sincere? You will not get anyone fired or even reprimanded. If you expect the RR to change the way it operates, forget it. They will not throw the baby out with the bath-water for one complaint. My advice to you is to move on with your life. It (your life) can't be that empty that this is the supremely important event in it.
Did you have to stand in the cold like I did waiting for the train at Ronkonkoma? NO!!
What does that have to do with a train coming in on an unexpected platform?
Did you face a mass of humanity coming towards you on the staircase? NO!!
No, that happened Thursday morning when I entered 49 (N/R/W) NB around 9:30. I'm not sure what happened, but the entire token booth area was packed (I had to snake around the crowd along the wall) and people were still exiting. It looked like a crowded train had dumped every one of its passengers just as I had arrived. (The following N train was quite empty.)
Then again, I'm not sure what you mean by "a mass of humanity." I wouldn't be surprised if the mass of humanity exiting my local home station in the afternoon rush after each train pulls in is greater than the mass that you had experienced.
Were you concerned that if the train left you behind, the next one would be ONE HOUR LATER? NOOOOO!!!
For all you knew, I was trying to get up to the GWBBS to catch a bus with even longer headways. It turns out I wasn't; I choose to spend most of my time in areas that have adequate density to support shorter headways than that.
But didn't your train wait for everyone to reach the proper platform, in any case?
It never ceases to amaze me the courage some writers have when they don't have all the facts.
Like you (as we determined the last time you brought this up)?
I certainly don't object to service complaints -- I've posted my fair share here myself. I wish your complaint were the most serious complaint I could come up with!
And I suppose your complaints are enough to stop the world?
They don't have a next train sign?
In general, at Ronkonkoma and most eastern terminals, the schedule states from fhich platform a specific train will depart
I was refering to Herald Square.
OK, I'm slowly figuring it out.
Paradise is sitting in a nicely heated wooden L car on a stormy day with the rain pelting the windows as you eat a fresh Ring Ding and sip hot Dunkin Donuts coffee.*
*Warm female companion optional, but maybe too much to ask for.
You mean an "old" Ring Ding right? Ring Dings have changed since the 70s. They were better when they came in individual foil wrappers.
They ... they DON'T come in individual wrappers any more...?
Oh .. my heart ...
Paul,
As far as I know, females NEVER came in individual wrappers!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
You mean they're NOT sanitized for my protection? ;-)
Paul,
I'm not about to go there! Besides, they still can make me feel warm and fuzzy all over.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I'm very tempted to hit the rim shot button.
>>> As far as I know, females NEVER came in individual wrappers! <<<
Most of the ones I have met do come in individual wrappers, except two English girls on holiday I met one day in the ‘60s on the Plage de Pampelonne near St. Tropez. :-)
Tom
They've changed since the eighties, because I remember them in the freezer :)
-Hank
Ewww ... scooter pies! :)
Yep ... that's PRECISELY it ... pity you didn't get a chance to meet Nancy when we came down - nothing like a cozy railfan to keep you warm in the cab when the window won't go back up. :)
Ah, maybe next time... :)
And remember the unused cabs on a BMT B unit before the rebuild?
Did they eliminate those two person private compartments with the rebuild?
Yes.
Which begs the question:
Does anyone on here belong to the "mile under" club, since those cabs could accomodate 2 people? :)
Heh. All it takes these days is the right keys. HeyPaul put up some pictures of Nancy and I engaging in "two-person operation" of an R143 on the Canarsie line on Christmas day ... with the right connections, the old days are still alive and well. And the heaters actually WORK in the 143's. :)
Did you two try to scrunch in together in his R-9 cab?:-)
Yes indeed ... we did it "TA style" but HeyPaul was blusing So muh at the shiksa in his cab, that he was unable to save the videotape buffer to his WEBBED teevee in order to save it for posterior ... SUFFICE it to say that HeyPaul's cab has INDEED been blessed, and we did it CATHOLIC STYLE while HeyPaul was left in his secret radiocave blasting the CDROM "meltdown style" ... we actually saw the speaker cone of his sacred Atwater Kent bounce off the ceiling. It did NOTHING to reduce our throes of railfoamer passion. Dougie observed over on the other place that we left behind railfoamer stains of our pleasure in his R9 cab. :)
My goodness!!! I thought this site was supposed to be G-rated!
LOL!
I'm not going to ask about that "Catholic style".:-)
Heh ... Monty Python, "Meaning of Life" ...
Does that envolve candles, wine, ring bells and Latin enuendo.
avid
Frankincense and myrrh are also involved ... helped to stop HeyPaul's head from spinning. :)
No Olive Oil and large plastic drop cloth?
avid
Heh. Obviously you don't KNOW about Catholic gurls. No "devices" required. :)
Just for another rail related Paradise, the 8 line in Baltimore had a cutack at Paradise (Avenue). We always referred to it as a "cutback to
Paradise".
Best look from the uninformed. The shocked look when you told them you were going to Paradise.
Paradise California. You ascend up to it from Chico. It usta have a single track spur railroad which served a lumber facility north of it. Yes, my Grandma ascended into Paradise every time she went home from Chico. And once, among the more-born-again, my statement that she was in Paradise got the heavenly interpretation.
How about snow softly falling, pretzel sticks and a coke?
Ring Dings used to come one per package and were much larger than the present day cakes. This was in the 60s...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Are you going to list that on
forgotten-foods.com? ;-)
Don't forget to mention Mello-rolls.
Moon pies! (another motorman fortifier along with SnoBalls) ...
lol, i remember, what do you get when you pass a red, you get a brown
You never GET a brown, you TAKE a brown ... never someone else's fault. :)
isn't it second nature for T/Os to blame the tower?
Ah ... your explorations have been fruitless grasshopper ... heh. ANY problems are written up as "vandalism" ... can't charge it to car equipment, best not cross a fellow TWU member, so you write up any such "brown alerts" as vandalism ... no joke - ask the current T/O's what you write if you write it at all. :)
lol, so if you run a red and trip (result in pants position is brown,yes) you can write up vandalism? So how come the drunk guy who crashed the train on the East Side IRT just not write up vandalism? "uuuh some kids slipped alcohol into my coffee which caused me to bend cars against beams"
Yeah, YOU'RE ready for school car ... next exam, bro ... you've got it down ... (grin)
boy I wish, seriously. And if that doesnt work out I could be foaming, or better yet, be like that guy who broke into TA facilities stole handles and railfanned wherever he wanted.
dude, what are you taking about, YOU ARE THAT GUY! LOL!
SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH........There are werk bums on dis here board.
hehe! ok, so maybe you're not, but hot damn, you're the biggest damn foamer i ever did see. hehehe!
god damn, how much bork am i full of tonight?
foamer eh? we'll see what kind of foamer I am next time things get nautical
you shoulda seen some of our other cohorts over the weekend, they were foaming as they got their ferret-faces on.
I was BORKING GODDAMNIT, can't i get a Bork in once in a while.
of course... it's all about the bork, really.
Ummm ... they're a bit more strict about those kinda things these days, Mr. Darius. :)
hey kev, when you had that yard accident, did you blame the tower too?
Nope ... made the mistake of charging a busted pipe to car equipment. Shoulda written "vandalism" ... heh.
OY, nice nice. What year was that? 70s? would have been belivable
March, 1971 ... CIY layup ...
yeeea, that time I could probably get into the yard (those were the days) How long were you been operating upto that point?
As a motorman, I'd been on the road for 6 weeks. Worked the TA for just under a year.
Hmmm - right about the time of Ali-Frazier I. I remember it well.
Sorry to blow it for ya, but one of the reasons why I got a female persuasion railfoamer geese as my betrothed is because I never gave a CRAP about "sports" ... ya see, those of us WHO GET SOME don't believe in feetball ... do ya KNOW how many of us who can't tell a goalpost from a milepost are diddling your wimmens during STUPORBOWL? Nevermind. :)
LOL!!
Kev, you're THE MAN!
BMTman
those of us WHO GET SOME don't believe in feetball
who get some...
A subway pictures
B transit maps
C railfan window time
D none of the above
blue pills
avid
Ouch!!!
Hey, no sweat. To each his own. I'm a musician/sports fan/transit buff myself. And happily single.
how you gunna blame the tower if you wet your pants?
Bwahahaha! *rimshot*
rimshot eh? thats getting close
haha! going with one stream can be hard to do in the morning. hehe!
Split window on a R-21-22?
The original cars on the orange line in philly ??
The los angeles PE blimps doin thier thang back in the 1950s ...!!!
finally the entire pre world war 2 fleet everywhere !!
lol ....!!
Well, lets see. Hmmmmmmmm. They all qualify.
You or any one enjoying all of these items would have to be:
1) a time traveler
2) dead and in Paradise
3) a subtalker in a wildass mueseum.
Sign me up for the next field trip.
avid
>>>Are you going to list that on
forgotten-foods.com? ;-)<<
Mockery does not become you.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>Are you going to list that on
forgotten-foods.com? ;-)<<
Mockery does not become you.
Is their a pun in there someplace?
Drake's also had Ring Ding Juniors. The full-blown Ring Dings were about the same size as today's Ding Dongs.
Paradise to me is waiting on an outdoor platform on the old BMT with the wind and the snow adding to the misery. Then a set of old BMT Standards enters the incandescent lit (it's nightime!) station. The trains slows to a stop, rail joint click clacks and air brake sounds are muffled by the snow. I enter the car and sit by the window at a cross seat and after the doors close and train excellerates I feel the fireplace like warmth from the heater.
NOW, I'M ALL EXCITED !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Its 1979 Im at Intervale ave, an old R-17 biiig Lee and Fantastic 5 piece ruins the car, colors all over, still smells like paint, freshly done, Its 2 AM, winter, cold, miserable, I get on, the inside is covered, accross me is a NYCTransit Police Officer with the old leather jackets and PUSHBROOM mustache staring at me, I settle in and watch the south bronx go by and know that all is right with the world
"Paradise" would be a return to the esthetics of the triplexes and their similar models, but with amenities such as air conditioning. And, bring back the els so the could be more outdoor riding.
The bare bulbs, the overhead fans, the wicker seats, the strange noises. I remember it all.
Real paradise would be the end of the grievances and jealousies that led to 9/11/01.
We're not realpolitik, or any other kind of politik, in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Paradise" would be a return to the esthetics of the triplexes and their similar models
Hmmm.. I never thought of Triplexes as being "esthetic." Not ugly exactly, but didn't quite have the agreeable appearance of a lot of the other BRT and BMT equipment.
OTOH, thinking about the interiors, they had a rather nice arrangement and look to them, almost like suburban cars...
Once upon a time, Brooklyn *was* the suburbs ... that's why Lynbrook took the liberty of anagramming a cozy little sleepy 'burg ...
A three-story building on New Utrect or Myrtle Avenue, with my owner's apartment on the third floor, with a wonderful space on the roof to look down on the el. There's a spot on New Utrecht with some lovely old buildings set someway back from the el at a triangle, where you get the best of all possible worlds -- somewhere in the 40s maybe, not far from where 13Av crosses.
How much more rail-fan paradise can you get? I actually *want* to live close to an el! Someplace on Roosevelt might do too.
When the Third Avenue el closed in Manhattan, some of the people who had it outside their apartment windows said they missed it. I especially recalled someone saying that they woke up inthe middle of the night because they didn't hear the train any more.
I was one of those myself ... and even stranger since I was right AT the 204th St station (northbound side) the headlights from the trains could be seen from Bedford park getting closer and closer and closer until it looked like the northbound was going to come RIGHT IN THE WINDOW when it suddenly did the left turn to the platform AT 204 St. So in addition to the sounds, there was also the headlight things that was suddenly missing as well. I moved out. :)
In mid afternoon, everytime a Manhattan bound J crosses in front of my house and I have the windows open, the sudden loss of sunlight can be very startling.
I can attest to this. I still live on Jamaica Avenue, and have since I was 5. Whenever I either went on vacation or slept over someone else's house, I could never sleep because it was too quiet! I needed that every-20 minute clatter.
My brother-in-law is just the opposite. He has to have absolute quiet in order to go to sleep and is soundproofing the walls in his house. It may be due to a hyperactive thyroid. He'll eat anything my sister puts in front of him and still won't gain any weight.
Did he ever try one of those "white noise" machines?
Melatonin, man
The greatest sleep aid since someone invented counting sheep.
Actually, both my wife and I found L-tryptophan (sp?), a protein, very effective, with no side effects. That's the protein in milk that has a mild sedative effect (as in "a warm glass of milk before bed").
I don't think you can buy it any more. It's not dangerous itself, but an improperly made batch from batch was somehow adulterated and they pulled it all.
That's why I like melatonin. It's merely an artificially manufactured hormone your brain uses to naturally tell your body "it's time to go to bed". I take 1 3 MG tablet, and 90 minutes later I felt I just got off a 12 hour shift in a salt mine. The only side effect is increased dreaming intensity, which is why I stopped taking it right after 9/11.
My idea of paradise:
Sitting on a heated R16 at 168th St/Jamaica at 7 AM with a cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee, a toasted coconut donut, $5 dollars in your pocket, fresh batteries and several of your favorite tapes in your Sony Walkman, and having the entire day in front of you. Female companionship is NOT desired, but it'll be nice to have that when you get home at 5:30 PM.
Except for the 168th St thing, I've experienced this. Ahhhhh...
168th St was a great old station.
You would have loved it if you had ever been able to use it.
I do remember using it in it's last days, but since I was 5 years old when it closed, the memories were blurry. I didn't even remember the wooden platform until I discovered this site.
If you liked 168/Jamaica's old flavor, you probably would've LOVED Metropolitan Avenue before the fire and rebuild (and before the masive stores built next to it).
Real old BRT station in the sticks, all wood, ancient wooden station house on Metropoltan Avenue ... probably all the same since before the northern part of the line was rebuilt in the Dual Contracts.
And the motormen used to go to Lutheran Yard to take out a "wood" or a "steel."
Yes, but Metropolitan Ave was on the ground, and 168th St was on the el.
At 168th you could watch them cut six car trains down to three.
What was special to me about Metropolitan Avenue is that it was on the ground--the only surviving terminal from the days when the pre-Dual Contracts street-level BRT.
I guess you could add Rockaway Parkway, but it wasn't the original terminal, and I don't think as much is recognizable from the early 20th century.
What was special to me about Metropolitan Avenue is that it was on the ground--the only surviving terminal from the days when the pre-Dual Contracts street-level BRT
Really? I was always under the impression that everything on the Myrtle Ave line west of Wykoff Ave was post-dual contract construction. Did Metropolitian Ave exist before the subway was extended from Wykoff in 1916ish?
Really? I was always under the impression that everything on the Myrtle Ave line west of Wykoff Ave was post-dual contract construction. Did Metropolitian Ave exist before the subway was extended from Wykoff in 1916ish?
I guess you mean "east (north) of Wyckoff"? Yes, Metropolitan Avenue pre-existed the Dual Contracts. Trains ramped down (IIRC right after Wyckoff) and ran on thr ground via the current right-of-way, but at ground level.
Yes, east...duh.
That explains that trolly ROW the elevated passes over from Seneca to Fresh Pond.
Without wracking my poor tired brain, I believe every surface right-of-way was kept as trolley trackage, unless, of course, the new line obliterated the old, like on the Brighton.
I believe the route to Metro on the ground was originally a Steam line from (anyone know where it came from?) to the Lutheran Cemetary. The BRT took over the line and ran on the ground from Wyckoff to Metro. When the Broadway line was upgraded, the Myrtle el line was upgraded to Wyckoff, and the el was extended to Fresh Pond Road. It remained on the ground to Metro. They then ran a trolly line on the former BRT tracks on the ground, under the new el structure. This survived into the 50's.
Also, the original terminal at Metro burned down in the late 70's, that is why Metro looks pretty new. I don't know when the steam line that first ran there, started service, or when the BRT took over, but I know the BRT took over before the el was built in 1915 to Fresh Pond, because it was a surface line on private ROW, like the M el is today.
Paul: I have nice memories of sitting on a Q-Type at Metropolitan Avenue in a forward facing seat next to an open window on a pleasant early spring evening. Before they built that damn warehouse there was just one very big field there and as the sun dropped into the west is was a most tranquil place.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey, I used to work in that damned warehouse....LOL
I remember 168th St. Rode out to it perhaps three times in 1968-69.
Using the exit at the south(west end of the platform, going into a buitding next to the RKO Alde, opposite the Valencia Theater.
avid
I remember the Valencia, although my memories are of it being a streetfront church.
It was one of my Sunday movie favorites. The balconies seemed to go for ever. I saw Ben Her in that theather, I think that was the last movie I saw there, 1960
avid
Is the Valencia still a church? I peeked in the doors once and it seemed like a beautiful theater at one time. It was probably a real theather at one time, before being converted to a movie theater
Using the exit at the south(west end of the platform, going into a buitding next to the RKO Alden, opposite the Valencia Theater.
avid
a path train under the wtc..
anyone seen this pic before ?? .....
That shot, along with a couple of similar ones, were in The Star Ledger and Bergen Record newspapers several weeks ago.
is there a link so i can see the rest of the photos ??
I'm not sure if they still have those photos available, but here goes:
The Star Ledger: http://www.nj.com/photos/worldtrade/
The Bergen Record: www.bergen.com
The Ledger link is straight to a page for WTC photos, The Record link is the general link to the paper.
Thanks!
i could not find the PATH photos .. ( oh well )
But U know the old sayin'
"" if you snooze U loose ""
guess i missed dat one !! .......lol !!
thankz
Just got my new issue of Fire Apparatus Journal; numerous photos of FDNY trucks wrecked in the disaster. To really get a feel for it, you need only view a 10-ton ladder truck turned inside out and melted; a 3-ton Tac unit whose rear wheels now point up while the front point down.
A few cars on a PATH train are nothing.
-Hank
I have seen in earlier posts references that there were other stations on the Broadway El and the Myrtle Ave. El before Dual Contracts..
Does anyone know the names of them and when and why they were removed??
I'm assuming it was pre-1915, but I have yet to see at map from the era....
One obvious removed station - Broadway Ferry.
I think there was a Driggs Ave too, or is that the Ferry Station? Also removed around the same time, as that part of the M line was redone was Evergreen Ave, the next stop after Myrt-Bway after the M left the Broadway line. Evergreen was removed I assume becaquse too close. Actually the New Central Avenue had an Evergreen exit on it's opposite end of the platform, also since removed(within the last 5 years)
Park Ave, between Flushing And Myrtle Ave.
Evergreen Ave, between Central & Knickerbocker?
Actually Evergreen was between Myrtle-Broadway and Central.
Does anyone have any pictures??
Also, what were the car widths at this time on the Broadway El??
Am I correct in assuming that they were the narrower IRT width (as on other early BRT els?
The Standards were the first 10' wide BMT cars.
All of the BMT gate cars were 9' wide except those that were rebuilt into C types.
IIRC the Cs had skirts on their sides a la the Lo-Vs which helped out on the BMT.
Can someone tell me what CTBC really is? Is it ATO? (Automatic train Control) or some sort of signaling improvement??
I believe CBTC is communications based train control. Right now the NYC is on a fixed signal block indication. CBTC is a moving block system which will allow for more trains at higher speeds. I believe it is just a new system. Even if it is Automatic Train Control, they might be able to pull it off on some lines like the L and 7. They can do that to those lines because they have few diverging routes and they do not share tracks with other trains. For example how E shares tracks with F between 36th and continental avenue. they wanna make the whole system that way, but it costs too much and its too complex for a 97 year old subway. October 27 of 2002 will make 98 years. Its too complex and too costly to MTA. So believe me all the Motormen i know do not fear of either taking a pay cut(because TA won't pay Motorman if they don't need to run the trains anymore. well they won't get paid much like today). They are not worried. Only people in trouble is TA wanna get rid of Conductors and make OPTO. u know the union is not agreeing with that
I understand. So its like tracking trains on a more advanced level while on the move, I have been hearing about OPTO for a looong time, The union has their teeth holding on to prevent that or so I hear from TA types. Thanks a Lot
Eventually, some form of CBTC will spread to therest of the system. The L train and 7 trains are good places to test it, as you have pointed out. But this is proven technology, and if it works on those lines, there's no reason for MTA to not use it on others. It's just a matter of time. The costs will be spread out over ime, and it will pay for itself in savings.
In the long term, the best thing any front-line transit employee can do is continue training, add skills, get familiar with new technology (which isn't new, really); education, a bigger skill set and flexibility offers more job security in the long run than any union contract could provide. In fact, I think transit unions have an obligation to make sure their members get the opportunity to update their knowledge.
CBTC is NOT proven technology. It is very much bleeding-edge.
The only thing proven thus far on light rail installations is
that it is a royal pain to cut in.
What cities use CBTC now ?
I believe CBTC is communications based train control. Right now the NYC is on a fixed signal block indication. CBTC is a moving block system which will allow for more trains at higher speeds
The MTA is never going to increase speeds. The keep on slowing things down !!
actually if you install CBTC and ATC/ATO then you can (assuming you trust Hal more than the current T/O's) both speed up and increase TPH.
Will they? to be continued.
Curve speeds can't be increased. You have to be worried about derailments and people being thrown against walls.
They won't increase speeds in WD areas, or places where there are timers that already slow down trains.
Ahhhhhh........dreams of speed. Trackage simply won't allow it, period. What CBTC could do is allow better timing and close-up to gain a mere 10%. My drive to the 239th Yard from Manhattan: 21 minutes. My subway ride there: approximatly 80 minutes. CI Peter
tell me what CTBC really is?
CBTC stands for Communication Based Train Control.
Conventional train control systems use fixed sensors along the right of way to determine whether or not a train is present and possibly its speed. The sensor outputs are fed into a distributed or centralized control system to determine how fast each train should move. The control system's output is sent back to each train either directly into the cab or to wayside signals.
CBTC works differently. Each train senses its own position and speed. It communicates this information to the control system. The control system calculates what how fast each train should go. This information is communicated back to the train's cab.
Is it ATO? (Automatic train Control)
If the information regarding how fast the train should go is available in the cab, it is not too difficult to have such information control the train's speed. CBTC is not the only technology that provides cab signalling. The TA did have ATO at one time without CBTC.
or some sort of signaling improvement?
CBTC may offer the prospect of cost reduction. It does not offer any theoretical advantage in increased train speed or service levels.
Surely, if properly installed, configured, and tested (a big bunch of ifs), it allows reduced headway between trains.
If the system knew exactly how many feet away the next train was, that would be a much better control device for keeping trains apart than the current signal blocks. You still want to have a live trained human being in the cab, but the control device (in case the human messes up) can be much more accurate with CTBC.
Surely, if properly installed, configured, and tested [CBTC](a big bunch of ifs), it allows reduced headway between trains.
Whatever gave you that idea? The only benefit CBTC might provide is reducing the signal/human reaction time to changes in the state of the system. This is on the order of 2-4 seconds or under 5%. OTOH, most current block systems are operating at less than 75% of their capacity.
If the system knew exactly how many feet away the next train was, that would be a much better control device for keeping trains apart than the current signal blocks.
The lowest documented headway I know of for a conventional block system was for the tracks between Park Row and Sands St - 56¼ seconds or 64 tph. None of the heavy rail CBTC systems reach 75% of this figure.
R142 tech uses inches in distance based upon 34" wheel diameter to sense location. NEWER train tech elswhere uses GPS...tunnels don't allow satellite fix. CBTC TA was to use 2400 mHz comm transponders....system dumped for inductive links every 100 feet of trackage in hopes of pushing close in to get 10% speed up. CI Peter
R142 tech uses inches in distance based upon 34" wheel diameter to sense location.
They had better have beacons placed every 10 miles or so, if they want to rely on this dead reckoning method. Suppose the diameter were out by 0.1% or 0.034". After 20 miles, this position sensor would be off by 105.6 feet. Of course, they still don't know which track they're on. Not quite as accurate as a conventional block system.
NEWER train tech elswhere uses GPS...tunnels don't allow satellite fix.
GPS technology can be jammed. Somebody ought to alert the WMATA security people that they have more to fear from a microwave oven than they do from published track maps.
CBTC TA was to use 2400 mHz comm transponders....system dumped for inductive links every 100 feet of trackage...
There goes CBTC's cost benefit.
Hey, at least someone with a brain reads my posts!!!!! LOL!!! Don't get me wrong...my posts are based on my experience. A 180th Street crewman asked me about the position sense...Bomba techs filled his head with nonsense about the computers being able to read wheel diameter. We check wheels every inspection...no changes noted yet in measurements...just burned brake shoes. Sometimes, the computer asks for AAS...'tell me where I'm at'...it runs backwards from 241st St. to the yard. GPS is being used for a lot of things...but not in tunnels and who would make the effort to jam it? The 2.4 gig transponders were dumped for some reason...they were illegal in the US as they operated on the ham bands without authorisation. TA isn't planning CBTC projects right now...the effort is being made to end museum trainset service. Me fixumup 2s n 5s, CI Peter
We have been using a new computerized signalling system from Siemens with “floating” track-circuits for a couple of years now in the subway of Stockholm – Sweden. Installation started in 1997 (and its still not working properly). The train communicates with the signalling system trough data-telegrams received from the rails with a pair of inductive antennas mounted in front of the first wheelpair/boggie.
The trains receive speedlimits in 5/kmh steps, and “stop positions”, a kind of virtual red signal on the track.
For this to work the exact speed of the train and the travelled distance most be known. Therefore the wheel diameter must of cause be held within specified limits. Even a small difference in speed / travelled distance, like caused by a simple wheel-slip, can corrupt the data and will immediate cause the train to execute a BIE. After an BIE the train must reset and recalibrate it self, and that is done by crawling at very low speed thru 2 complete “floating” track-circuits, not including the track-circuit the train actually standing on at the time of the BIE.
The announced decreased headway’s and the increased speed has never been archived, in fact its slower and allows less trains on the tracks than our old relay-based signalling-system from 1950.
The system also comes with the ability of ATO, even though its not fully tested and implemented yet (suprice).
/B.
See...NYC SubTalkers still don't read my postings and just complain about every little thing. CBTC was supposed to bring about a 10% headway in travel IF initiated. Problem is what that headway will bring now that rail speed is cut down to 40mph max (about 60Kmph.) I'm sure your T/Os LOVE those logged BIEs. Perhaps 'old will be new again.' CI Peter
One some days, all you hear over the radio are trains reporting in BIE's :-)
/B
KOOOL!!!
You're saying that the EM emissions background in the city is enough to make GPS unreliable?
Comm tech WB2SGT can hold up a unresonant field stregnth meter and make a needle move without being in immediate presense of a strong RF field...there is plenty of microwave range interference. GPS tracking requires a window fix on several geosynchronus satellites... NYC street GPS in a moving vehicle is a little unreliable for accurate position fix. Imagine being in a trainset underground...try picking up a signal 24,000 miles away. Just try looking at the sun in Grand Central station fifty feet below the street. CI Peter
You're saying that the EM emissions background in the city is enough to make GPS unreliable?
No, what I said was that GPS signals can be jammed. Also most of the hardware required to make a jammer are contained in a microwave oven.
You keep clicking upon the wrong poster. Of course I know about microwave ovens....the greatest little handheld invention was a little box containing a button operated microwave oscillator that would trigger speed radar detectors in cars. 'Brakelight bingo'...push the button, watch the brakelights and PASS. CI Peter
For what it's worth, I have a little handheld GPS unit that I use when I go hiking, and it's virtually impossible to get an accurate reading on the streets of Manhattan, much less underground. I have to go into the middle of a park.
More elaborate units might do better; I don't know.
Thanks for posting that. Important information.
6791-6800 are in service as of today! Got to ride the gal on the way home.
7571-80 are here and were in testing today.
-Stef
In service on the 5?
No.
-Stef
Gonna happen!!! Real soon!!! Problem is that R142s don't have ANY flexibility in changing routes. CI Peter
Looks like problems on 7th Avenue forced an R-142 Train down Lexington Av this afternoon.
I wonder if the C/R made manual announcements?
-Stef
Did the train run in revenue service on the Lex. line, or just pass thru? If it did run in service, was it on the 4 or 5? -Nick
In service with passengers, it switched off at 149th Street Grand Concourse.
-Stef
I was on one that did that on Mon eve. Ran express on the Lex. For a while, they tried to sign it 5 on the inside, I guess to be able to use the canned PA. It didn't work, so they just said what they had to
Hey folks maybe you guys can figure this out, I saw a set of r142's at gun hill road last week. I don't remember the rest of the car numbers I only remember seeing car no. 6740 out of the group. The train was parked on the express track or test track, anyway as I walked passed the cars I noticed the last car had all types of wires coming from out of the top or near the light fixture, some of the wires were plugged into a laptop computer. Their were at least three guys sitting on the bench in front of or around the laptop, Anyway I'm assuming this is the way they program these cars. My point is do they have to make such a mess just to get these cars to work properly?
They might have been monitoring something. They have to make a mess to make sure that the set which you saw works properly! It was testing and must have just came in (6736-6740).
My brother in law who work for Amtrack Bombardier in Washington DC & he have laptop to fix computer in the New Amtrack Bombardier Trains go to New York City or Boston. He show me all kind of stuff in his laptop. He say if any thing go wrong with computer in the train & he just go fix it with the laptop & find out what wrong with the computer.
Peace
David J.
To the best of my knowledge, nobody is doing any kind of programming. The laptops can plug in for many kinds of downloads and monitoring. Several weeks ago, I noticed the Bomba crew had LAN cables all over the place...any trainline LAN failure will stop a R142 'dead in the water.' Better with two cans and a string. CI Peter
Hi,
I'm wondering which frequencies the LIRR uses in Penn station specifically, IE to dispatch trains and what not. I brought a scanner in to the city the other day and I didnt hear anything in penn station on Channel's 1-4, the yard, dispatch, intra-train channels etc.
--MetsFan4552
Try the Amtrak channel 6060 161.010
All trains should use the SAME channel in Penn.
LIRR uses the following frequencies:
Channel 1: 160.380
Channel 2: 161.445
Channel 3: 161.265
Channel 4: 161.535
Car Maint: 161.385
Road Main: 160.395
160.725
160.785
PD: 160.620
PD: 160.455
PD: 160.605
PD: 160.320
Amtrak and NJ Transit use the above frequencies mentioned in the previous message, but not the LIRR. All trains use Channels 1 thru 4, but Channel 1 is for the Stationmaster and West Side Yard, and PSCC and 204(Dispatcher) is on Channel 2. 1 and 2 are the two main frequencies LIRR uses there.
Amtrak in the Penn Station terminal area (SECTION A) uses 160.920 MHz (Amtrak NEC Road), while the LIRR uses 160.380 MHz (LIRR Road 1, LIRR SECTION A/PSCC*) * - Penn Station Control Center aka Claytor-Scannell Control Center.
Amtrak has TWO NEC road channels: 5454 (160.92) (south of Trenton) and 6060 (161.010)(north of Trenton.)The changeover takes place at Morris Interlocking.
Penn Station is on 6060. Amtrak got the new frequency because of some overlap of frequencies.
Michael
Unless there is a problem going on they don't really say that much. You usually just hear track assignments for inbound trains and what the crew is supposed to due to the train after it arrives. Most communication is done by the signals.
It is usually good to have it in if you think something is wrong with your train, though. You'll hear what is going on and if there is going to be a track change, if your equipment gets pulled.
-- Kirk
I've carried a scanner for years. Although there weren't many announcements of what trains were on what track there are less now since believe or not September 11. That's from a dispatcher who said it started after 9-11 when they didn't want to announce where a (AMTRAK)train was going to be for security. The trainmen etc. are relying on screens set-up in crew and dispatcher rooms similar to what we see except that there for their use. The info-booth people had these screens but the last time I looked they were shut off because too many of us were learning how to go back there and read them and know where our trains were before everyone else found out.
they used to have electronic hand writers to post train numbers and tracks. the towers wrote to many places in penn sta. there was one by the lower level arrivals desk there was a system in GCT also. that dated from the 1920's.
OH YEA !! ...LOL !
OMG!!!!! And it has a railfan window too!!!!
Hahahahahahahaha ... LOL!!!!!!!!
Dont knock my PE 314 REDBIRD !! here she is today at the orange empire museum ( my photo dis' time ) .....lol !! he he he he
OH YEA !! lol !
OMG!!!!! He spelled proof correctly!!!!!
Hey ...hey !!!!!! " proof " ...??
lol !!
Now that's a rustbird. Why, there are even two large holes in the front!
Does anyone remember what the 30 day test for the R68s and R68As were like?
Hi there,
I am trying to find out how long the tunnels are in the NY Subway.
Is there a web site that would have this information within it?
Any help would be most appreciated.
Many thanks,
Nick.
By no means is this scientific, and I could have it mixed up, but I think I remember that if they are stretched out, you could get to Chicago. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't remember if that includes yard trackage. I vaguely remember something like that.
CI Peters brain is so tied up right now...forgive any numerical errors. I'm at least close to the facts.
740 miles of trackage
196 Interlockings
11,000 track zones
305,000 relays
Zillions of stinking lightbulbs
Too many Redbirds
Tunnels only, or total track miles? The MTA website says 685 miles, but doesn't break it down by type of structure.
Well, at least I can speak for some of the IND's underwater crossings:
Cranberry Street tunnel, 8,487 feet
Rutgers Street tunnel, 5,479 feet
53rd Street tunnel, 5,589 feet
Washington Heights -- Concourse tunnel, 5,397 feet
Newtown Creek tunnel, 4,790 feet
--Mark
Hi,
I GOT APPROVAL!!! i get to go to a conference in nyc... FINALLY i return home :)
Ok now, what hotel do you guys/gals/aliens recommend? I was thinking of staying near times square/broadway area...
crowne plaza on 49th and bway?
I have also stayed at the roger williams on 33rd and lex and enjoyed it...
Any help is appreciated.. also perhaps we could do a railfan trip while i am home :)
I CAN SMELL THE BAGELS ALREADY
Thanks :)
Ok now, what hotel do you guys/gals/aliens recommend?
You forgot to mention swine, like me.
1) Where is the conference held at?
2) Who is paying for the lodging, you or your company?
After that we can narrow down our recommendation.
Phil Hom
If you are paying for it yourself I can recommend exactly how to bid on Priceline (area and star combinations) to get an excellent 4* like the waldorf Astoria or W or Intercontinental Barclay at 90 or so dollars a night (75% off).
Here's how I'd do it. Using Priceline you can save 75% on a 4* hotel, the best NYC has to offer. Priceline allows you to up your bid little by little if you change one thing on a failed bid so starting low you can get awesome deals. Here's my strategy:
The **** hotels priceline is known to have in NYC are:
Midtown East Zone: W, Waldorf, Barclay, Drake Swissotel, Grany Hyatt, Millennuim UN Plaza
Midtown South: Morgans Hotel
Midtown West: Central Park Intercontinental, Warwick, LaParketMeridien, NY Hilton and Towers, Marriott Marquis, Westin Essex House, Renaissance, Sheraton Towers, Millennium Broadway
Upper East Side: Stanhope, Regency
There seem to be no priceline 4*'s coming up for less than 85 bucks so start at $85.
Bid 1 - ****, $85, 1 or more of the areas above you want to stay in.
...if that fails...
Bid 2 - ****, $90, The areas in bid 1 plus JFK airport (JFK has no 4* hotels so by adding it you are geting a free rebid in the areas you want.)
...if that fails...
Bid 3 - ****, $95, The areas in bid 1 plus LaGuardia airport (again, has no 4* hotels so you are geting a free rebid.)
...if that fails...
Bid 4 - ****, $100, The areas in bid 1 plus Newark airport (again, has no 4* hotels so you are geting a free rebid.)
...if that fails...
Bid 5 - ****, $105, The areas in bid 1 plus Newark airport and JFK airport
...if that fails...
Bid 6 - ****, $110, The areas in bid 1 plus Newark airport and Laguardia airport
...if that fails...
Bid 6 - ****, $115, The areas in bid 1 plus JFK and Laguardia airport
...if that fails...
Bid 7 - ****, $120, The areas in bid 1 plus all 3 airports
If that fails wait 3 days and start again at a higher price base.
Let me know how it works out as this took me a while to type in for you.
Good luck.
BTW, the Crowne Plaza you mentioned is only a 3* and is in the Midtown east zone and shows a 169.00 best rate. You can do much better than that rate with a much superior 4*.
Here is the discount web site I use www.180096hotel.com
Click on New York, enter your arrival date, # of nights, # of beds, # of people, click on "sort on price" on the right side.
What does OT mean in your message?
Michael
Off Topic (from subtalk)
Because there is so much talk about this, anyone who's interested, there is an article in Newsday today with artists remenderings of some ideas for the new WTC.
Building 2 70-story towers is a cop-out. I say, if you build office towers, they should be at least as tall if not taller than the Twin Towers were.
Here's my idea: Build a needle, similar to the CN Tower in Toronto, complete with observation decks at the top. This would be the "World Trade Center Memorial Tower" and serve to remind us of the soaring heroism we exhibited in the face of the disaster. The needle would point skyward reminding us of the spirits of the innocent victims. Mounted at the top would be communications equipment as before, which would be a source of revenue. It would not be an attractive target for terrorists, since it would not be an office tower with thousands at work inside, and the terrorists would need the antennae anyway to provide media exposure for their (God forbid) next act. With this tower, people would be able to take an elevator to a point in the sky higher than they had been able to in the Twin Towers, and higher than the planes' points of impact, and higher than anywhere in the world. This would symbolically show terrorists that we can rise above them.
I agree completely. I like the idea of a needle as the memorial.
And the footprint of the needle would not be that large so as to allow commercial and residential development in areas surrounding the base. I would suggest this to the Manhattan Redevelopment Corp. if I could find an address. Last I heard, they have $2BB but no offices yet.
Why does everyone keep wanting residential space in the new WTC? Its freaking WALL ST. Living is for the suburbs, Wall St. is for working and making money.
Tell that to the 10,000 people that live in Battery Park City.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why does everyone keep wanting residential space in the new WTC? Its freaking WALL ST. Living is for the suburbs, Wall St. is for working and making money.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG! Oh, so wrong.
Mixed-use is what keeps NYC a vital and living city. It's precisely your prescription -- separate residence and workspace -- that leads to the decimated hollow downtowns of most midsize US cities.
Making downtown a place that people want to be outside of 9-5 is the key to keeping revenues coming in. Use some of the space for offices, some for residences, some for culture (performance, museum, etc.), some for public amenities (parks) ... and you draw people into the space 24 hours a day.
Mixed use simply works BETTER. Why do you think BPC is half office (WFC) and half residential? Because lots of the people who work in those offices LOVE living there.
You'll always have a large number of downtown workers who want their quarter-acre of green grass, or more conventional suburban school districts, or whatever. But offering residential and MIXING UP THE USES is vital to building a city that will endure.
Cities are crime ridden, overcrowded, pollution filled, smog covered hell holes that nobody in their right mind would ever want to live in if they did'nt have to. The sooner everyone realizes that the better. No sence exporting all that crap everywhere. Let's keep it in the cities and keep the rest of the country nice and clean.
Cities are crime ridden, overcrowded, pollution filled, smog covered hell holes that nobody in their right mind would ever want to live in if they did'nt have to. The sooner everyone realizes that the better. No sence exporting all that crap everywhere. Let's keep it in the cities and keep the rest of the country nice and clean.
When you make these kinds of jokes, it helps if you use emoticons ... like :) or ;) or whatever.
That saves the majority of folks who feel cities might have a redeeming value here or there from wanting to respond and waste SubTalk space.
I was serious there. I have a low opinion of cities. That's why I didn't go to Penn ot Johns Hopkins. Too urban.
That, or you couldnt get in to either.
I was accepted at both.
I forgot to change out the cookie on my PC. That post was from me.
Again, I forgot to change out the cookie on my PC. That post was from me.
Mike, you are amazing SubTalk, if it is about anything it is about THE C*I*T*Y in other words, if you hate cities, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE???
Visiting.
I agree with this. I would like to add that if more people lived near their jobs, they could walk to work, and that would reduce traffic.
that if more people lived near their jobs, they could walk to work
And/or take the many SUBWAYS throughout Manhattan, contributing equally to cutting traffic.
Although walking is a major form of commuting in Manhattan and other dense boroughs. I learned that more people walk to work in my community board (CB6) than anywhere else in NYC, and hence by extensions almost surely anywhere else in the US of A.
Nonsense. NYC has 8 million residents; Manhattan has 1.5 million residents. Some of us don't see the need to start up the car to obtain a carton of milk. Besides, if we all went through the suburb-to-city commute every day, imagine how overburdened the commuter rail systems would be.
The problem is that the needle has been done. NYC used to have a unique and instantly recognizable skyline. Now it doesn't. Stealing one from Toronto won't help. In case everyone forgot, the WTC towers were really cool, beautiful and exceedingly photogenic. They were built to show off the greatness of the city, not for economic reasons and this is what should be done again.
They were built to show off the greatness of the city, not for economic reasons and this is what should be done again.
Yes, they were built to show off, but there was an economic need to keep all the trade offices in one location to make communication easier and centralized, otherwise they would be spread out all over the place.
but there was an economic need to keep all the trade offices in one location to make communication easier and centralized
Although as the WTC book I read pointed out, this was the political justification for the complex but wasn't true in reality. Their brokers had a hell of a time getting those small world-trade companies to rent WTC space: They didn't need/couldn't afford Class A space, and often didn't want to be down the hall from their competitors. And with the rise of info technology in the '80s and '90s, they didn't need to be in NYC at all -- faxes and e-mail made it possible to do from almost anywhere.
Remember, the largest tenant when the WTC opened was the State of NY.
Of course, my needle would be of different design than Toronto's. I was thinking of a design reminiscent of a large, single "eternal" flame, not straight-up-and-down like the CN Tower or the Seattle Space Needle, but thinner at the bottom, thicker in the middle, and pointed at the top, (like a candle flame in mid-flicker). Each side and edge would rise in a slight spiral as opposed to straight up. The top of the needle would be in plumb-line with the epicenter of the tower-base, but nothing else about the tower would be in-line vertically. Think helix. I believe this might be possible with today's technology. (Forgive me, I'm not an architect.) The structure would rise from whatever boxy new buildings are built near its base. It would keep us mindful of the conflagration on 9/11, but also evoke that "eternal flame" concept seen on a small scale in Gettysburg and Arlington National Cemetery.
If you really want to go for symbolism, how about moving the Statue of Liberty up there? Build the 60-story towers, connect them at the top with a new pedestal, then put the statue on top of that. (It can't be too hard, since they got it here from France in the 1800's.)
For another one, how about a giant eagle perched atop a space-needle type thing? It might have to be made hollow to deal with weight requirements (and would limit the height of the tower), but you could see it for miles around (if not by naked eye then certainly with binocs from a great distance).
Another idea - engrave the names of each and every single one of the victims (about 3,000 - wait unti the final count comes out) on a stone about six inches high. When you build the tower, these stones are put up, one above the other. You start at the peak of the 60-story office buildings and go up from there. The resultant height of the tower would be about 2,300 to 2,400 feet, making it the tallest free-standing (in fact, guyed or not) structure in the world, and 1,000 feet taller than the old towers. Then build a SLOOOOOW elevator that takes about an hour to go up from the 60th floor to the top, so riders can read each and every name on the way up. (You'd also have a fast elevator, of course.) It's sort of like the Vietnam Memorial, only vertical.
Just some ideas to throw out onto the table...
>>> the WTC towers were really cool, beautiful and exceedingly photogenic <<<
Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. When the WTC was built it was roundly criticized as an ugly monstrosity out of place with its surroundings, and architecturally bland. The WTC became a symbol of New York only because after the passage of time, a majority of the people did not know the skyline without it, and therefore accepted it with affection as they would an ugly grandparent. While the method of destruction is rightly condemned, it certainly does not follow that what should be built there must or should resemble the WTC.
Tom
Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. ... While the method of destruction is rightly condemned, it certainly does not follow that what should be built there must or should resemble the WTC.
Well said, Tom... I agree 100%.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also they kinda stuck out like sore thumbs when first built [like some of those HORRIBLE towers n places like Atlanta or Dallas or someplace],with really nothing around to give perspective to them..what REALLY happened was that they built Battery Park City,the World Financial Center,etc, a neighborhood 'grew up' around it,the towers had more of of a 'fit'.
Yes, this is what we should have there. This way the buildings in the new WTC site could be 50-70 stories, but are not forced to be taller than they need to be for usage reasons. I think this needle should be the tallest structure in the world. It could have various observation decks and restaurants, as well as a WTC museum and memorial at the base of it. How amazing it would be to stand near the bottom of this great needle and look up to the top of it! If there were no offices in it, then it would not be a symbol of our economy, only a memorial.
Mounted at the top would be communications equipment as before, which would be a source of revenue.
And all the communications support offices could be waaay underground.
The needle would point skyward reminding us of the spirits of the innocent victims.
I've always thought that whatever is built there should be like this. This is what NYC and America is all about - "The sky's the limit." That is why the Empire State and Chrysler buildings are designed like they are. When people look at the buildings, they keep looking up past the spires to the sky, making them true Skyscrapers.
I have envisioned some sort of memorial sculpture soaring like a dove that is high enough that everyone has to look up to see it. Of course, it shouldn't resemble a plane, or maybe it should?
I love it too. Now how can this be made into an official recomendation. It seems to be the perfect compromise.
I am glad someone thought of that. I was thinking about something similar, such as 4 "mini towers" on the corners and a CN Tower/SpaceNeedle type thing in the center. Windows on The World II could be at the top. I'd enjoy something like that.
I as well as many of us want to see 2 towers standing just as high and proud as the WTC 1 and 2--but honestly, what company would want to lease space up there--moreover--who would want to work that high now???? Tony
<<
I as well as many of us want to see 2 towers standing just as high and proud as the WTC 1 and 2--but honestly, what company
would want to lease space up there--moreover--who would want to work that high now????
>>
Excellent point.
And not only that, it has been stated time and again
that large skyscrapers are no longer the way to go. They are too expensive to build and will not be able to reach full occupancy in today's real estate market. You will have a very tall building with empty top floors. You will have proven nothing and find yourself in the red.
Besides, from what I am reading Larry Silverstein may be entitled to only 3.5 billion dollars (not 7 billion) if the insurers treat this as a single claim. That means there will be less money to play with.
The insurance issue is very much open. Silverstein claims there is a very similar precedent in New York law involving two consecutive acts of arson by the same person being treated as two events. The insurance companies claim (a) that's a different situation and (b) even if there had only been 1 plane the 2nd tower would have been unusable.
This one looks too iffy to predict. The court could easily go either way.
I side with the insurance companies on this.
A double helix, represnting the Human Gnome.
avid
I hope you meant Genome, not Gnome!
Right now, some SICK-O MAD Scientist is working with the human genome to produce a GNOME 8-O
Yippie.....
Yet another plan for a post-Clinton-era wimped out office park. Why the heck is everything this country doing today so damm limp?
Acela runs at a yesteryear 150mph for a whopping 20 miles. Every other HSR proposal is stuck in the 50's at 110mph.
Airbus is poised to unseat Boeing as the maker of the world's largest jetliner.
The R-142 gets reprogramed because they're "too fast"
Bush's new 'energy policy' includes trying to force us all into wimpy golf carts.
The 2nd ave line will take decades to build.
Someone farts in an airport and we evactuate the east coast.
We can't do anything because it might offend someone.
And now, the replacement for the 2nd and 3rd tallest buildings in the US is...
A freaking 70 story tall tower or two.
Come on. We get wacked by some dumb middle eastern terrorist, and what do we do? We wimp out. Yet again.
What's wrong with this country? We've stopped taking chances with anything. Come on - let's build a 2000 foot tall tower or two.
So what if a terrorist gets a hard-on over it and tries to blow it up. We've got enough megatons of nuclear to blast them back to the dinosaur age.
"Come on - let's build a 2000 foot tall tower or two."
I agree Phil, but for safety reasons, people might reject the anti-aircraft guns located on various parts of the tower.
"So what if a terrorist gets a hard-on over it and tries to blow it up. We've got enough megatons of nuclear to blast them back to the dinosaur age."
Thats the kind of unthought-out mentality that gets us into trouble. In case you forgot, we aren't the most heavily fortified country in the world. What a prime example of the arrogance of the American public.
Thats the kind of unthought-out mentality that gets us into trouble.
Nope, it's our very EXISTENCE that gets us into trouble. Do you suggest that to be perfectly safe, we not exist?
Someone will always hate us. Why? Because we're better than them. You suggest that we should stop being better than them so they won't hate us. I will not. America made it to where it is today by not cowering in fear from the LOSERS of the world. America will not advance any further if we decide to cower now. The loser countries that the terrorists come from (like Saudi Arabia, the most sociopolitically primitive country on Earth now that the Taliban is gone) don't have any tall skyscrapers, so instead of building their own (like Malaysia did, good for them), they decide to destroy what we have.
If we don't reach for the sky again, we'll be no better than Shitty Arabia.*
*Please do not construe my hatred of Shitty Arabia as hatred for Arabs or Muslims. However no theocracy deserves respect. The Shitty theocracy is even worse than that of Iran.
Well, Mr. Arrogance, nice to meet ya ;-)
Thank you. If our society has achieved a certain level of progress, it would be stupid to hide it in fear of a much more primitive society.
About two or three weeks ago the City of New Orleans donated a Brand New Fire truck to the city of New York. The funds were gathered by private citizens.
I beleive the same can be said of a town in Ohio. The funds came from the Tax payers. They gave up a new truck that they had needed.
We both, New York and New Jersey lost fine men and women in the Uniformed services. We lost sisters, brothers, daughters, sons, mothers, fathers and friends. We lost equipement as well. The rest of the nation shares and feels our lose.
I beleive the city and both states, NY and NJ could salute the contributions of these philadelphian cities by donating four columns from the WTC to be erected in one of their parks as a memorial to the people taken for this earth on Sept.11,2001.
It would be a stark, tall, square structure with the date and thanks of the WTC famlies.
Avid Reader
And DAMN if the SHRUB didn't put his OWN face in OTHER people's generosity by GRABBING OTHER PEOPLE'S GENEROSITY FOR HIMSELF after stiffing New York with the high hard one. The people in those communities gave of THEIR OWN GENEROSITY ... how DARE SHRUB steal their thunder after giving New York NOTHING ...
HYPOCRICY on this level IS unPRESIDENTED ... Where's the CASH, Shrub? Even Clinton didn't have such BALLS ... and we KNEW where those were ...
My faovrite are the North Dakotan kids that sent TONS of macaroni and cheese.
It is rather remarkable how things (codeword for $) shrink or disappear when it goes through the Middle man.
So I repeat that we the people return the goodwill with one of our own, before some admin type decides how to divie up the remains of the structural steal. I know its s t e E l.
avid
You can indicate intentional mispellings like this:
"...the remains of the structural steal (sic)."
Mark
tnx
avid
I know this is nitpicky, but it really gets on my nerves when the conductor on my LIRR train announces, upon arriving at Flatbush Avenue, "This is Flatbush Avenue, the last and final stop on this train."
"Last" and "final?" This is a huge illiterate redundancy, like saying "I live in a big house home" or "I'm taking my auto car to the shop."
Someone should tell those in control to cut it out already.
Back in the 1970's when I used to ride the F to 179th St., there was a certain conductor who would announce "This is the next an laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast stop. Sometimes he would hold that "last" for about 15 seconds!
Live messages are one thing that I miss on the new LIRR trains. I used to like when the conductor would come into the car and yell, "Greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat River, Saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayville next". It just made the ride more personnal. It's the little things you remember.
What I think happened is that they started out saying "next and final stop" (which makes sense), then somehow it got corrupted over time. I've heard it on Metro-North as well. I agree, it is infuriating.
Maybe it isn't final enough. The conductor could add, "This is your last chance to get off the train. Please get off the train. Pretty please with sugar, strawberries and hot fudge on top."
:0)
If you really want to nitpick, try parsing out the announcements made at the airport by airline ticket agents....and by the on board flight attendants themselves. It's obvious they like to hear themselves speak with all their redundancies.
United used to have a seat-back emergency card that had in bold print, "IF YOU CAN'T READ THIS CARD, PLEASE INFORM A FLIGHT ATTENDANT." Uh, if you can't read it, how do you know you can't read it?
And their equivalent of "last and final stop" was, "If you're terminating here.." (Sheesh, I'm too young to die!)
So you can say, "Actually, I was already terminated. My boss handed me my final paycheck on the way to the airport. Do you think I could get my money back for this ticket?"
Reminds me of PA tests I have sometimes heard here at work ....
This is a test of the PA system. If you cannot hear this message, please inform your manager.
--Mark
That reminds me of the infamous DOS error message:
Keyboard error - press F1 to resume
That's not DOS, it's NT4, and it's true!!!
On Topic comment: Do MetroCard computers (which use NT) have keyboards?
If you're talking about the vending machine, they do, it's on a tray, locked up. If it wasn't locked up, hell would rise.
Each MVM has its own keyboard? That sounds like a waste of money. Why not keep one keyboard locked up in each station?
Keyboards are cheap - Micro Warehouse offers a 104-key PC-compatible keyboard for as little as $7.91 - so the aggravation of having to get the keyboard from wherever it's kept isn't worth the savings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Might be NT4, but it does occur in DOS. Since NT4 is just a shell, goes to show you Windows people what you're really using.
NT4 isn't a shell, it's the whole operating system. Windows 9x is a shell.
It makes sense, one would have to restore keyboard function before doing anything with the computer.
Not true. For most purposes, an input device of some sort is necessary, but the keyboard specifically may be optional. (There's a fair amount I can do on my computer -- say, read SubTalk -- with a mouse and a network connection as my only functional input devices.) For specialized purposes, an input device of any sort might be unnecessary.
And their equivalent of "last and final stop" was, "If you're terminating here.." (Sheesh, I'm too young to die!)
Well if that city is their home, they might die there eventually, so the airline is correct :)
Along the same lines are the call boxes on California freeways. They have instructions in Braille! (As do the drive-up windows at McDonalds!!!)
>>> Along the same lines are the call boxes on California freeways. They have instructions in Braille! <<<
From some of the driving I have seen on the freeways I would say those instructions are warranted.
Tom
Do windshields come in Braille?
:0)
The braille on the drive thru windows makes sense, you've never heard of passengers doing the ordering?
For the same reason, the braille on the highway callboxes makes sense too. Are the only people on a highway drivers? No. Therefore, it is well within the realm of possibility that passengers, including blind ones, will have to use a callbox.
And if the car carried a passenger, it is more likely the driver would stay behind and send the passenger to the phone, especially if the passenger cannot drive.
Speaking of parsing announcements, the CTA's courtesy message is one of the more illiterate of these canned messages. It says "Smoking, littering, and playing radios or loud devices is prohibited." How about, "Smoking, littering, and playing radios or using loud devices are prohibited"? Maybe somebody else has a better idea about what is done with loud devices; I figured you don't play them, but "using" is somewhat generic. At least that "are" would make it so that we aren't prohibited from smoking radios or loud devices!
Yeah, what if someone has a loud vibrator.....
LOL.........................
Take it up with the Department of Redundancy Department.
:-) Andrew
Ok ok ok. Here's what I figure....
Last and final means the train's terminating here, and not going back in the other direction anytime soon.
To me 'last and final stop on this train' means the train is going out of service and you are at the end of the line. 'Last stop' means the train is going to turn around and go the other way. 'Final stop' means the train is going out of service. Not 100% redundant but close.
Matters such as this are handled by the Department of Redundancy Department, which handles matters such as this.
You'll have to lodge an official complaint with the Department of Redundancy Department, Mitch...
I was looking for the DofRD, but all I could find was an authentic replica -- a genuine imitation. It was very unique.
Hoo boy. We should get back on topic. Or is it in topic? Such as, "Passengers are prohibited from crossing upon or entering the track."
ON topic. IN line.
>>"Passengers are prohibited from crossing upon or entering the track." <<
That has bigger problems than just redundancy...
How exactly does one *enter* a track? You can step on one, over one, or possibly limbo under one, and I suppose you could be impaled by one. But how does your body actually enter inside the track?
It must be rather unpleasant - I don't think anybody needs a warning to not enter into a track.
Some people expect to hear "last stop". Other people expect to hear "final stop". Some may not know that they are the same thing (non-English-speaking tourists). So the conductor says both, hoping to serve people whose friend told them "---- --- 'LAST STOP' --- ---- --- ---."
About the movie title "Money Train", you know at the end of the movie where the Money Train used in the movie crashed on the back of the (B) passenger train, was the passenger train a Redbird?
If so, why is it on a BMT line with an IRT train to Coney Island? Because of the Redbird was a retired train.
By the way, is the IRT fleet compatible with the BMT/IND lines?
I don't think there is a problem with the IRT physically running on the B division. Practically though the trains are too narrow and people would fall between the platform and the train.
As for why is the Redbird going to Coney Island, remember it is Hollywood.
I know it's Hollywood, but was that Redbird a retired train?
The movie used retired R-30s, B-division "Redbirds." The rest of the movie is one big inaccuracy, though :).
Yes, I know that, because the (6) doesn't go to IRT (Lexington) Wall Street, the (B) doesn't operate the Redbird. I think they just used a computer to produce this movie.
No; they were real retired R-30s on a Hollywood set. See "Subway Bibliography" on this site for confirmation.
Do any of the studios in Hollywood own any old subway cars? What did they do with the red R30 after they were done filming?
There were sightings of R-27/30s in La-La Land in the past... can any of our California correspondents give us an update?
It would be interesting to find out. Where is salaamallah to help with this?!
Yes i saw them at the CORNFIELDS here in LA back in the early 1990s !!
Damnit.. i did not go down there to squeeze off some shots ( sigh )
I do wish i did because i took for granted they would still be preserved here somewhere ......
A BIG MISTAKE ....now the pasadena GOLD LINE is being built thru the UNION PACIFIC " cornfields " rail road yards today !!
( hope dat' helps ) ...lol !!
i will post some of the cornfields pics later tonight ....lol !!
they were on the union pacific cornfields yards ... back then ....
Salaamallah, where are the R27/30's today?, i mean the ones they
used for money train movie?.
the survivors were moved to a movie lot visable from the 134 - 5 freeways in glendale
the dissapeared from that lot ( sigh )
If my wish was made they would be where the red line is now on museum trips !!
oh man that would b a real .......lol!!
unfortunately & however I do have current cornfields photos where the r30s used .2. .B.
the pasadena gold line construction area(s)..
They did the filming at "Cornfield" yard, which is just northeast of the Chinatown section of Los Angeles. After the filming, the fake subway was removed, the yard sold by owner Southern Pacific, and is now an industrial park.
There were about 12 real R27/30's and about half a dozen fake ones. The fake ones were actually made of wood and were torn apart in either the filming itself or shortly thereafter. Eight of the real cars were then taken out to Colton (about 55 miles east of LA) and scrapped by a local railcar scrapper. They did not last long.
The other four were brought about five miles north to Glendale, and were hauled from the rails about 500' to the back lot of a Warner Brothers facility. (The building closest to where they sat now says "Barwick Studios" on it but it is a separate operation from WB.) The four cars were used for something, unknown what, and I photographed them in November, 1999. In early 2001, they were cut up/scrapped and today there is no evidence of them ever being there.
The cars there were numbered 8275 and 8401 in the "redbird" paint scheme. The car with 8401 on it had some other number on the cab door interior, either 8297 or 8397 (I checked through the zoom lens on my camera when I photographed them; the bottom 2/3 of the second digit was removed.) It could NOT have been 8401 as the REAL 8401 is at Coney Island for fire training. The other two cars' numbers could NOT be verified as they were in blue/silver and were heavily grafittied. The blue/silver cars were not on their trucks; the trucks were stored in another corner of the lot.
Yet another wave of hope, followed by despair sweeps through the subtalk community as a phantom cache of R27/30s evaporates in cyberspace.
avid
they just had to destroy them instead of giving them to the orange empire museum ....
How did they get them to California. I assume by rail. Anyone seen any photos of this happening?
Thanks Steve, for your input. Your info goes along nicely with my earlier posting about the R-27/30's used in 'Money Train'.
BMTman
do you still have that picture ??
Columbia Pictures was the studio that made 'Money Train', so for a while AFTER the movie came out they still had possession of several subway cars (i.e., a few R-27/30s + the customized R-21 that was used as the armor-plated money collection train).
If my memory is correct, one of the Redbirds was used in a short scene in another Wesley Snipes' movie called 'Blade' (interior shots only). An entire train of them was computer generated for the film when you see them running through a tunnel.
I believe a regular here at SubTalk who lives in southern Cali used to see those R-27/30's sitting in a lot off in the distance while driving on the LA Freeway. I believe the lot was a studio 'junk yard' somewhere in Glendale (a suburb of LA).
Also, keep in mind that there were TWO 'Money Train' cars used in the movie. One was kept in standard NYCT motive-power (meaning it ran on thirdrail contact), while another was shipped to LA for the bulk of filming where it was converted to gasoline power (four Chevy engines were used to move the car when needed). Since the California scenes were shot on unused Southern Pacific tracks, thirdrail Ops was out of the question.
Hope that helps...
BMTman
...while another was shipped to LA for the bulk of filming where it was converted to gasoline power (four Chevy engines were used to move the car when needed).
Wow, I didn't know about that one! Any idea what happened to it? I wouldn't mind acquiring one of those to haul the groceries :).
Talk about extra large SUV's......................
I wonder what kind of mileage it gets??????
Make an offer....it sits in the CI yard. CI Peter
The silver "money train" is in Coney Island Yard, or it least it was about a year and a half ago.
It's still there AFAIK. That was the one used in NYC filmed scenes (like the quick shot of it running over the Manhattan bridge).
BMTman
Oh, so there were two of them one here and one in California.
El Correcto...
Thats one powerful Doodlebug!
avid
The real money trains were late night junkers. The movie train still sits in the Coney Island yard complete with its turrets. CI Peter
They did NOT "use a computer" as you suggest. Hollywood just doesn't always get things perfectly correct. And, 99.999% of the people watching the movie wouldn't know the difference anyway. There are very few of us subway enthusiasts out there in relation to the general film-watchign audiences.
The cars used were REAL NYCTA SUBWAY CARS (plus some fake ones made to match). As I mentioned in another post, they did bring about a dozen or so out to Los Angeles. After the filming, most were scrapped and four of them lasted into early 2001 at another studio backlot in Glendale, California.
The "subway" in much of the filming was fake -- a wooden set constructed in an abandoned Southern Pacific rail yard northeast of downtown Los Angeles. It was dismantled after filming of "Money Train" and "Die Hard: With A Vengeance". And, yes, there WERE some scenes filmed in REAL NYCTA SUBWAY STATIONS.
Everyone has got to remember that these movies are made for entertainment, not a factual account of the subway. As you said 99.9% don't care if the subway scenes were accurate (correct trains, lines in stations, etc.) Come on, it's Hollywood, not a documentary on the subway. Let's just be happy they use the subway once in a while.
I see. Because I kind of find that most recent movies seem to be using made through computer animation.
You guys don't read my posts: the money train of the movies was pointed out to us at the Coney Island yards in SEPTEMBER. Gun turrets and all. CI Peter
Such as Union Square on the IRT disguised as Wall St.
Yeah, that was an obvious one. Which station did they use in the scene where the guy tries to set the token booth on fire?
I would think it would be on a Hollywood sound stage with people holding CO2 bottles off camera along side with a fire inspector.
I thought they were IRT Redbirds?
The R27-R30's were also painted like redbirds just before they were retired.
Is the real money train used by the MTA armed (bullet proof)?
That's a good question. I think it's just some junky retired IRT car, I forgot what type though.
There are 5 "Money Trains," pairs of R-21/22 cars.
Sorry, bad HTML. I will use the Preview button, I will use the Preview button...
There are 5 "Money Trains," pairs of R-21/22 cars. They look like this. As has been discussed here, they will likely be phased out and replaced with armored trucks.
Thanks, very interesting. Not at all the glorified silver thing from the movie!
I would like to see one of them saved as is ... well I would leave the bars on the windows & her in yellow with black stripes, but scrape the paint off the windows & probally re-install seats inside (she would have to earn her keep at Branford).
Or a R-15, with those little fans inside. That would be a AFC vs. a St. Louis, BUT I think they are only rider cars (no ability to run on her own without find all the removed parts). Well at least the TA museum has a R-12 & R-15 ... maybe someday they'll run on a fan trip with the R-33 in World's Fair colors ... wouldn't that be nice !
Mr rt__:^)
If they could put the parts back in which were supposedly cannibalized, they'd have a ready-made 4-car IRT SMEE consist.
Nor are the real "Money Trains" guarded by automatic rifle-toting SWAT cops. In my soujourns in the subway on many a late night in college, I noticed an alarming number of morbidly obese African-American women with .38 revolvers collecting the money. Not nearly as meanacing as the guys in the movie, but I still wouldn't want to mess with them.
LOL.....................
B Division had their own Redbirds which were R-27/30's done up in the same paint scheme as the A Division Redbirds. I believe they all went to the scrapper about 10 years or so ago.
The movie crew bought a few of them from NYCT and used them throughout the movie no matter what line they were representing.
BMTman
If the BMT/IND Redbirds were retired in 1993, operating since 1960; how come they didn't have the lifespan of the IRT Redbirds (R26,R28,R29) of almost 40 years?
>>If the BMT/IND Redbirds were retired in 1993, operating since 1960; how come they didn't have the lifespan of the IRT Redbirds (R26,R28,R29) of almost 40 years?<<
Lack of air conditioning spelled their early retirement. No, retrofitting them for A/C like the Redbirds would be too expensive at their age.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since when did the IRT Redbirds (R26, R28, R29, [R33, R36 including the WF cars]) have A/C?
The first experiments that led to success were conducted in the early 1970s with various types of air-conditioning systems (earlier tests had been done in the 1950s but did not work well). The program to retrofit the R-26 through R-36 cars (except the single R-33s) was started in 1977 and completed in 1982.
David
Plus adding A/C would have increased their weight to BMT standard proportions.
Is that why the BMT/IND Redbirds failed to add A/C? Therefore they were forced to retire prematurely.
"Money Train" had as much to do with the subway as my nephew's bathtub tugboat has to do with the Queen Mary.
Cover article in this week's New York Press is about a 38 hour ride through the entire subway system.
"What a great idea...Take the most frustrating, boring and uncomfortable part of your day, and do it for a whole weekend!"
Interesting...but they should've checked their facts more carefully.
ie;>>>While the IRT was excavating the tunnel for our 4 train in 1905, a sandhog named Dick Creedon ran to a blowout with his bag of sand.<<<
His name was Richard Creegin.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, I've never seen the restroom at 36 St/4 Ave closed (and as such, haven't ventured into the Cuban joints at 3 AM :)).
I got a new copy of "The Map" the other day and it showed some stations on the Port Jervis line with "shortline" printed under them. What does that mean?
Shortline is the connecting bus serivice that serves these stations. You'll notice that other LIRR and Metro-North stations have bus route numbers under the station name. Same thing.
I was riding on the train today and saw an ad in Spanish concerning the rerouting of December 16th. It reminded me of something I saw at the entrance to the Jamaica Center station. On the walls of the stairwells, there are signs that say "Be safe use handrails." What kind of grammar is this? It isn't. It's just four words pasted on the sign. An easy fix for this: "Be safe. Use handrails."
It's not just in English; grammatical errors are also popping up in the Spanish ads, too. Here's an example:
(F) tiene cuatro nuevas parada
The literal English translation would be "(F) has four stop new."
A better translation into Spanish would be "(F) tiene cuatro paradas nuevas."
Another one I've seen also concerning the December 16th service changes follows.
Text: (G) Cambios de Servicio Mayores
Literal: (G) Changes to Service Majors
Correct: (G) Mayores Cambios del Servicio.
Are there any other grammar mistakes you can find in the subway?
Sloppy writing and editing. People don't pay attention nowadays - they're too busy rushing work out the door.
I once bought a programming book which had over 200 pages of errors in it. I had to go through a lot of corrections posted, over time, on a website. It's a shame.
Must have been a Microsoft product. I work with Access quite often and the bugs I find would drive you up a wall!
Actually, it was Borland's Java. But your point is well-taken.
Once the display sign in a SEPTA tunnel showed a message about trolley re-routings and "trolleys" was mispelled "trollies."
Mark
Such is the educational level of the people who do the writing.
Kind of scary, isn't it.
Generation gap to ya oll: GI German. CI Peter
My dad spoke GI German - silliest usage had to be at DisneyWorld in '86, carrying on a three-sided conversation with Goofy at one of the restaurants in the Contemporary Resort. Since he couldn't talk, Goofy got a pen and paper and pulled up a chair.
Sometimes, the grammar and spelling on this board is a hoot.
I was wondering if someone would step into that one!
the debil made me do it!
Sometimes, the grammar and spelling on this board is a hoot.
Oh, yeah? I want proff!
The story goes in my family, way back, one of my great-great-great-great grammars was a single parent. That doesn't make her a bad grammar! Does it?
avid
"Sometimes, the grammar and spelling on this board is a hoot."
Sometimes the writer is either not an American, or English is not a first language. This we can excuse or ignore. Other errors made by people who should know better reflect poorly on them and or their education. If you are in school, you should attempt to write correctly here and everywhere else. The better jops (or positions) go to those who are litterate.
Elias
The better jops (or positions) go to those who are litterate.
When you are literate (Shakespeare, King James Bible and Spenser stuff), you do become polite.
So. Are we to assume they all need to spend $3.00 or so as their subway fare?
JOPS???
Peace,
ANDEE
Not for nuthin, but wouldn't it be
"Cambios mayores del servicio"...
CG
One grammar pet peeve I have is when people write plurals with an apostrophe (however that is spelled) like this: "Get the car's here"
The ONLY time an apostrophe should be used in "its" is when it is a contraction of "it is." There is NO SUCH THING as its' with an apostrophe at the end. I've seen this on subway ads (there! on topic!)
And as we all know, a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with :-)
The ONLY time an apostrophe should be used in "its" is when it is a contraction of "it is"
It's been raining.
Hmmmmmm... last time I checked, that was a contraction of it HAS not it IS.
My fourth grade English teacher always said that there was an exception to every rule.
My fourth grade English teacher always said that there was an exception to every rule.
That's weird.
[My fourth grade English teacher always said that there was an exception to every rule.
That's weird.]
I was hoping that someone would notice that "weird" IS the exception to the rule "i before e except after c or when sounded as a as in neighbor and weigh"
True, Alex. And even that rule has an exception.
>>> My fourth grade English teacher always said that there was an exception to every rule. <<<
The correct expression is: "The only rule without exception is that there are no rules without exceptions."
Tom
Tom,
Not to steal your thunder but your post is, ironically, grammatically incorrect!! :+))
The "correct" correct expression is: "The only rule without exception is the one which states that there are no rules without exception."
Just so you know.
Tunnel Rat
>>> your post is, ironically, grammatically incorrect <<<
That does not bother me. I find the logical inconsistency more interesting.
Tom
Why not say...
It's raining or
It has been raining
i prefer the pluperfect, myself.
As an English major, I will put an end to this thread.
--- "It's" signifies "it is" AND "it has."
Examples:
1. It's raining in Canarsie according to WCBS Newsradio 880's Todd Glickman. In this example "it's" is a contraction of "it is."
2. It's been raining in Canarsie according to WCBS Newsradio 880's Todd Glickman. In this example "it's" is a contraction of "it has."
It is acceptable English to use it's for it has; however it would be considered more formal in written English to spell out the words separately than to use the contraction.
"It's" never signifies the possesive.
Tunnel Rat
And as we all know, a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with :-)
You should also try to not split infinitives.
This is now officially termed the "greengrocer's apostrophe" from the peculiar spellings adopted by greengrocers (especially NYC greengrocers, and most especially the Korean ones), as with "apple's, 49¢ lb".
I am told that Europeans, especially Germans, like to add apostrophe esses to give a sophisticated foreign flavor to certain names, rather like the use of umlauts by Blue Oyster Cult or Hagan Daz ice cream.
It would be really cool to catch a ride on the Ä train, and then transfer to the Ø train.
Maybe on the Oslo metro.
Mark
Sorry, but the Oslo metro has lines 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
-- Tim
However, it is worse when they miss an apostrophe. For instance the syntax of a sign I once saw:
THE DOOR STORES OPEN
my pet peeve is that we have a whole generation of graduates who do not know when to use 'me' and 'i'. so, they cop out and use 'myself'.
for example, 'my company and myself wish you a merry christmas'.
that one drives me up a tree.
'my company and myself wish you a merry christmas'
No, sadly in this age the above sentence would be (politically) corrected to:
Wishing you Season's Greetings.
Hell, I'd (almost) tolerate bad grammar if I were to see more Christmas cards and less Happy Holidays cards.
What really frosts my corn flakes, in addition to the examples given, is the incorrect use of ' and " in printed signage or formal written presentations. A ' mark means foot or minute and an " mark means inch or second. Neither denotes a quotation or sub-quote. On a PC-compatible keyboard, they can be accessed using ALT+0145 through ALT+0148 (keypad only). Not always advisable for Web-based or online messaging due to different character sets, but for print, abusing these is unforgivable in my book (pun intended).
I suppose it doesn't help that I'm married to a proof reader, eh?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
(and hopefully typo-free after all this!)
Wheres' da PROFF?
Wheres' da PROFF?
Well, I've got about 80 Proof in the glass of 17 Y.O. Bowmore that I'm sipping at the moment, but I don't know where the Proff is, however < grin >.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
That scotch is almost as old as I am! :)
Then you cannot have any.
'my company and myself wish you a merry christmas'
No, sadly in this age the above sentence would be (politically) corrected to:
Wishing you Season's Greetings.
Hell, I'd (almost) tolerate bad grammar if I were to see more Christmas cards and less Happy Holidays cards.
The Seasons Greetings cards are more accurate than the Merry Christmas cards. Nearly all of the national Christmas celebrations are a reflection of the solstice holiday, and have nothing to do with Christ Mass.
Nevertheless, I say Merry Christmas all the time, even to people who obviously belong to non-Christian religions (I myself am not, and my family has never celebrated Christmas in any form).
As for myself, I don't see any reason to celebrate the shortest day of the year. I've always considered December to be the worst time of the year, it's usually dark and cold, and signifies the beginning of more darkness, coldness and solidified precipitation that usually falls slowly as opposed to those quick summer storms.
Christmas, Chanukah and Kwanzaa are all borne out of society's desire to make this bleak time brighter. That's why there are no holidays in the summer that aren't historical events that occurred on a known date, summer is its own holiday.
Hell, I'd (almost) tolerate bad grammar if I were to see more Christmas cards and less Happy Holidays cards.
I agree, and I'm Jewish. I find it quite repulsive that Chanukah, which celebrates the victory of Judiasm against assimilation, has itself become Judaism's predominant target of assimilation. I can enjoy my holidays without pretending they're alternate versions of yours. Furthermore, the result is that every Jewish kid looks forward to Chanukah with glee (no problem so far!) while many haven't even heard of and certainly don't celebrate some of the holidays of Biblical origin, like Shavuos (or Shavuot, if you prefer -- there's a bit of dialectology for you). Our major holiday season comes around September (give or take a few weeks), not December; although I never mind a well-meaning holiday wish, I especially appreciate one for Rosh Hashanah.
...although I never mind a well-meaning holiday wish, I especially appreciate one for Rosh Hashanah.
Ditto. Drives our non-Jewish relatives and friends crazy, though, when we send out New Year's cards (and the annual family megillah, with a strange date that they don't understand) in September. (Of course, almost everything we do drives them crazy, so... you want like we should stop?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey...this is real New York, verstehan sie? What still remains foreign is the 'Hindu' holidays. LOL CI Peter
Hey...this is real New York, verstehan sie? What still remains foreign is the 'Hindu' holidays.
Yeah, but IIRC, this year the city began eliminating alternate side-of-the-street parking regs for Muslim holidays as well. We're getting there.
You send out a megillah in September? Kohelet, perhaps, although that's usually in October.
OK, David, looks like I need another Hebrew lesson :-) I was using the term megillah in the colloquial sense of long letter telling a story. I'm not familiar with the term kohelet and my Hebrew-English dictionary doesn't have a word that's even remotely transliterated that way. Help!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
<< I'm not familiar with the term kohelet and my Hebrew-English dictionary doesn't have a word that's even remotely transliterated that way. Help! >>
"Kohelet" (or koheles) is the Hebrew name for the Book of Ecclesiastes, one of three books historically attributed to King Solomon. Most modern scholars reject that attribution.
"Kohelet" (or koheles)
Or Qohelet, a more "propper" translitteration, since it begins with the Hebrew letter Quf.
:-) Andrew
Thanks guys. My dictionary doesn't have it either way, but it's not oriented to Biblical Hebrew either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about the Confederate Constitution? Sorry Anon, I just had to slip that in. Nothing personal you know, but if you've perusing the posts as they go by you'll notice that Sea Beach Fred and his train have taken a few hits as well. Have a good weekend.
Fred: You remember the Confederate Constitution? I didn't know you were that old. Could you please send me Lincoln's Gettyburg address. I have some mail to forward to him.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In addition to what others have contributed -- allow me to add that Kohelet is a megillah. The most famous megillah is, of course, Esther, and the term is used colloquially as you state. Customarily, Kohelet is read on the Shabbos of Succos (or the Shabbat of Sukkot, if you prefer -- it's more consistent that way, in any case), hence my October suggestion.
Ahh... the picture gets clearer... thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This isn't a bad grammar problem, but:
At the Fulton Street stop on the 1/2, there is a sign in the mezzanine stating: Downtown Beekman Hospital, 170 Williams Street. There is no such street - its actually William Street, not Williams.
At the Fulton Street stop on the 1/2, there is a sign in the mezzanine stating: Downtown Beekman Hospital, 170 Williams Street. There is no such street - its actually William Street, not Williams.
Like the infamous street signs, covered on SubTalk before, showing "BLEEKER STREET" without the "c".
or the "Brodaway" misspelling in the tile signs on the Broadway "G" line station :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Is it Beverly Road, or Beverley Road?
It's Beverley.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's both Beverley and Beverly.
I also cringe at stupid grammatical errors and misspellings on signs, especially the illiterate apostrophe. (And, regarding jrofrano's comment about the bad spelling and grammar on this board: true, but totally irrelevant, since we are discussing errors on professionally-produced signs.)
You cite some good examples of stupidity in English and Spanish. But, I must dispute your analysis of the last example:
Text: (G) Cambios de Servicio Mayores
Literal: (G) Changes to Service Majors
Correct: (G) Mayores Cambios del Servicio.
I believe the grammar is fine here.
You have two nouns, one singular (servicio) and one plural (cambios). Since the adjective (mayores) is plural, it must modify cambios. Therefore, there exists some freedom in the placement of the adjective relative to the noun it modifies.
So, "Cambios de Servicio Mayores" = "Mayores Cambios de Sevicio" = "Cambios Mayores de Servicio". Of the three, I believe the third is the most preferable, since the usual position of most adjectives is following the noun. But, again, I think all three versions would be grammatical.
Ferdinand Cesarano
"Therefore, there exists some freedom in the placement of the adjective relative to the noun it modifies."
Throw papa down the stairs his suspenders.
> Throw papa down the stairs his suspenders.
Yeah, and throw mama from the train
a kiss! (See, we're back on topic!)
- Lyle Goldman
The horse raced past the barn fell.
A pet-peeve of mine, having grown up outside of New York (and you often see this not only on subway notices, but also emblazoned on signs in the post offices, government offices, and just about anywhere people read or speak in New York City) is that infernal phrase, "on line," as in, "I was waiting on line for a token." The correct prepositional phrase is "in line," as in, "How long have you been waiting in line for a token?" This one is still like fingernails-on-a-blackboard to me.
When you are queued-up, you are not standing on a literal line on the ground. Rather, the situation of your body and bodies surrounding you, all facing approximately the same direction and occupying more space front-to-back than to the side is what forms a geometric line relative to your surroundings. Thus, the position of your body relative to the others in this circumstance evokes the description of "in line."
When I first moved to the city, I remember having a conversation with a co-worker who was talking about how she was "on line the other day..." I asked her, quite seriously, which Internet Service Provider she used. It took a couple of minutes for us to figure out what the other was talking about (or, should I say, to figure out about what the other was talking?). :O)
A pet-peeve of mine, having grown up outside of New York ... is that infernal phrase, "on line," as in, "I was waiting on line for a token." The correct prepositional phrase is "in line," as in, "How long have you been waiting in line for a token?" This one is still like fingernails-on-a-blackboard to me.
Whereas I see it as a charming NYC regional usage.
Another one is "graduated high school/college" rather than "graduated FROM high school/college". Same thing, though this one grates on me more.
Yes. 'Stand on line' is a delightful NYism. There are others. We all know what a duplex or triplex apartment means in New York, and what it means elsewhere, don't we? A really kinky one is 'terrace' for 'apartment balcony'.
Then there's the distinction of 'in the subway' vs 'on the subway'. On the subway = on a subway train; in the subway = not on a train but inside the subway system.
We all know what a duplex or triplex apartment means in New York
And even more esoterically, the concept of a Junior Four: A one-bedroom postwar apt with an L-shaped living room that can be converted to a second bedroom, thereby making a "four-room" apartment (LR, BR1, BR2 and kitchen, since apparently bathrooms don't count in the room count).
Back on topic: In my main bedroom I have far too much transit infrastructure-related material that I really ought to move to the converted second BR/study. [grin]
And even more esoterically, the concept of a Junior Four: A one-bedroom postwar apt with an L-shaped living room that can be converted to a second bedroom, thereby making a "four-room" apartment
Note also that the prewar/postwar distinction is meaningful only in New York.
And Lionel across the world.
avid
Then there's the distinction of 'in the subway' vs 'on the subway'. On the subway = on a subway train; in the subway = not on a train but inside the subway system.
I never knew of that one before.
In German, if you say "Riding on the subway" they will think you mean on the roof. The proper way is "Riding with the subway" Here, that would mean like you're running along side it.
Don't we say, "take the subway..."? Where will you put it after you take it?
Isn't Bad Grammar a German resort town?
The exact preposition to use in relation to travel can be tricky. It's on a train, on a boat, but in a car, in a railroad/subway car. The system that carries the vehicle tends to take 'on': on the road, on the tracks, on the water, but: in the air.
Getting back to the original question about 'subway Spanish', I've wondered why they don't the usual Newyorqueño word, el subway and be done with it.
Another one is "graduated high school/college" rather than "graduated FROM high school/college". Same thing, though this one grates on me more.
Perhaps they should not be allowed to until they can write the above sentence with preper grammar.
Of course, nobody would ever axe them to do that, now would they?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Perhaps they should not be allowed to until they can write the above sentence with preper grammar.
I'll beat you all to it...
...and proper spelling as well.
Sorry, I hit Post Message instead of Preview by accident.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Don't even get me started on "axe" for "ask."
I've read that insofar as Irish (Ireland) English goes, 'axe' is the usual pronunciation. The fancy word here is 'metathesis'.
*lol*
[NYC's waiting on line vs. waiting in line everywhere else]
I have the impression that this New York-ism is gradually fading away. Maybe it's a generational thing, with the on line usage found mainly among people over X years of age (I won't speculate as to what X is).
I'm 18, and I grew up using "on line". Moving to San Jose quickly changed that, but it sure was fun to watch the expressions of puzzlement on the natives' faces! They also like my "unique" pronunciations of "orange", "forest", and most other words with the OR sound.
--
Ian Penovich
"Is this Flarida you speak of somewhere near Florida?"
[NYC's waiting on line vs. waiting in line everywhere else]
I have the impression that this New York-ism is gradually fading away. Maybe it's a generational thing, with the on line usage found mainly among people over X years of age (I won't speculate as to what X is).
I live in New York, but I live on Long Island.
And those who live on LawnGuyLand get irritated when you remind them that Queens and Brooklyn are on the Island called Long. Yes, this is another NYism that has to be explained to outsiders.
Once upon a time, before the City was unified, the natives regarded Long Island as a geographic entity, and not something beyond the Queens County line (as I recall, Nassau is a rump of Queens, the part of Queens Cty that chose not to join NYC). Consider the name of Long Island College Hospital, at Atlantic Ave and the BQE, which has been there since the 1850s (Polhemus is a lovely antique building): hence its name.
"I live in New York, but I live on Long Island."
Yes, that one always bothers me out here in North Dakota, where people always say that one wrong.
But here we have a city named "Devil's Lake" which is located next to a body of water by the same name.
When ever anyone says that they were born in Devil's Lake, I keep thinking that maybe they are a FISH.
It is a salt water lake (sort of) with no outlet (yet), but the water is rising, and has been for many years. It is a slow-motion disaster, with hundreds of farms now under water, (but you must still pay taxes on the land, be it at the bottom of the lake or not). AMTRAK had to be re-routed recently while the tracks were raised.
The indians are very revrent of this lake, calling it Spirit lake. But because of the salty water, and tempermental windy conditions on the lake, it was also called "bad water". White explorers combined the bad with the spirit and came up with Devil's Lake which has been an offence to the Native Americans ever since.
Elias
>>I live IN New York, but I live ON Long Island. <<
Most islands are lived on, not in. Napoleon lived in exile on Elba. The F now stops on Roosevelt Island.
>>> Most islands are lived on, not in <<<
And how often do you hear someone say "I live in the Bronx but I work on Manhattan"?? :-)
Tom
how often do you hear someone say "I live in the Bronx but I work on Manhattan"?? :-)
Steve's point was about LIVING on an island, not working ... different verb, different usage.
>>> Steve's point was about LIVING on an island, not working ... different verb, different usage <<<
In that case, how many New Yorkers have you heard saying "I live on Manhattan"? .... Oops, I forgot, to a New Yorker Manhattan is not an island, it is the center of the universe surrounded by a moat. :-)
Tom
NY usage usually thinks of Manhattan as a political entity, as the borough. The preposition, then, is 'in'.
He works in [the Borough of] Manhattan.
Only rarely do we think of it as a geographical entity.
Plus not all of Manhattan is an Island. There was an extremely long post about Marble Hill a few weeks back. So "in Manhattan" would then be correct.
It works just like 'Great Britain'. Only rarely does one speak of it in a geographic sense, 'on GB'. Just about always, it's 'in GB', which speaks of the two kingdoms and one principality contained by the island.
>>> that infernal phrase, "on line," as in, "I was waiting on line for a token." <<<
That is not limited to New York, and can be attributed in part to places such as factories where a line is painted on the floor or sidewalk indicating where those waiting should stand. More annoying is the use of "on" instead of "for" as in "I'm waiting on my friend to get ready before we can leave."
Tom
A pet-peeve of mine, having grown up outside of New York (and you often see this not only on subway notices, but also emblazoned on signs in the post offices, government offices, and just about anywhere people read or speak in New York City) is that infernal phrase, "on line," as in, "I was waiting on line for a token." The correct prepositional phrase is "in line," as in, "How long have you been waiting in line for a token?" This one is still like fingernails-on-a-blackboard to me.
Well, I'm afraid you'll have to get used to it. Dialects vary, and you've picked up on one instance. (I never even noticed this one until a few years ago.) Take an elementary linguistics course. The correct prepositional phrase is defined by the native speakers of the language, not by a textbook, and I think it's clear that native speakers of the NYC dialect of English are in agreement that "on line" is perfectly acceptable.
When you are queued-up, you are not standing on a literal line on the ground. Rather, the situation of your body and bodies surrounding you, all facing approximately the same direction and occupying more space front-to-back than to the side is what forms a geometric line relative to your surroundings. Thus, the position of your body relative to the others in this circumstance evokes the description of "in line."
Give it up. Both forms are idiomatic usages.
Well, I'm afraid you'll have to get used to it. Dialects vary, and you've picked up on one instance. (I never even noticed this one until a few years ago.) Take an elementary linguistics course. The correct prepositional phrase is defined by the native speakers of the language, not by a textbook, and I think it's clear that native speakers of the NYC dialect of English are in agreement that "on line" is perfectly acceptable.
It may be "acceptable," but I still hold that it is not correct.
Just because people in Central PA, where I grew up, are fond of saying "Where are you at," instead of simply, "Where are you," doesn't make it right.
I defy you to show me the prepositional phrase "on line," as in "waiting on line" in a textual format such as a newspaper article, novel or textbook when not quoting a NY City "native speaker" or using the dialect purposely to refer in some way to or evoke the flavor of NY City. I expect the majority of editors would correct "on line" to "in line," except where an obvious reference to the NYC dialect is warranted.
(Please note that I'm not commenting on the understandability of the misuse of "on line," nor on the character or intellect of the people who use it. I hope I'm wrong, but you seem to take offense where none is intended.)
It may be "acceptable," but I still hold that it is not correct.
Impossible. As I suggested to you in my earlier post, take an elementary linguistics course. A language (or a particular dialect thereof) is defined by the acceptability judgments of its native speakers -- no more and no less. If native New Yorkers find a particular phrase absolutely acceptable, then that phrase is correct in their dialect of English, at least in certain registers (the more formal registers tend to exhibit less dialectical variation). You are not a native speaker of the dialect in question, so your judgment is irrelevant. (It becomes relevant the moment we ask about the grammaticality of a phrase in your native dialect of English, at which point my judgment suddenly becomes irrelevant.)
Just because people in Central PA, where I grew up, are fond of saying "Where are you at," instead of simply, "Where are you," doesn't make it right.
It might well be acceptable ("right," as you put it) in informal registers. I haven't taken a poll of native Central Pennsylvanians so I couldn't say for sure. It's certainly not acceptable in my dialect. It might be acceptable in some registers of yours.
I defy you to show me the prepositional phrase "on line," as in "waiting on line" in a textual format such as a newspaper article, novel or textbook when not quoting a NY City "native speaker" or using the dialect purposely to refer in some way to or evoke the flavor of NY City. I expect the majority of editors would correct "on line" to "in line," except where an obvious reference to the NYC dialect is warranted.
Articles and books tend to be written in a somewhat dialect-neutral form of the language (retaining Americanisms over Britishisms, however) so that nothing seems terribly strange to any of their (American) readers.
Language is most often (by an overwhelming margin) used in spoken form. If linguists restricted their attention to the printed word, we'd know very little about language.
(Please note that I'm not commenting on the understandability of the misuse of "on line," nor on the character or intellect of the people who use it. I hope I'm wrong, but you seem to take offense where none is intended.)
I take offense at the falsehoods spread by armchair linguists. Take a basic linguistics course or read an introductory linguistics book. (Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct is well-written and is targeted at the layman.)
"My Bad" Where did that come from? Did I miss that day in grade school?
www.engrish.com
Text: (G) Cambios de Servicio Mayores
Literal: (G) Changes to Service Majors
Correct: (G) Mayores Cambios del Servicio.
I think the correct phrasing of this is actually (G) Cambios Mayores del Servicio.
Dan
An easy fix for this: "Be safe. Use handrails."
"Be safe" and "Use handrails" are two closely related independent clauses, it should be: "Be safe; use handrails."
One time as a train was rolling into Queensboro Plaza, the station PA announced "Please DISCARD the signs; this train is an express."
Gee, if they want us to discard the signs, shouldn't they give us some tools so we can take them off before discarding them?
Every now and then you get an old-time native Noo Yawk conductor who'll say along the lines of "Would alla youze move outa da doors?" (As every Noo Yawker knows, 'youze' is the plural of 'you', just as how the French language uses 'vouz' as the plural of 'tu'.)
How about an old-time native Noo Jorsey Transet conductor?
"Will dis train take me to Manhanan?
Jeet yet?
Naw jew?
avid
You really love those icons huh?
Whaja av?
avid
>>> just as how the French language uses 'vouz' as the plural of 'tu' <<<
You must have been hearing a New Yorker speaking French. Both the singular and plural of "you" is "vous" pronounced "voo." "Tu" is the familiar form equivalent to "thou" in English. The familiar is not used in English as much as it is used in French, German, Spanish and Italian.
Tom
You must have been hearing a New Yorker speaking French. Both the singular and plural of "you" is "vous" pronounced "voo." "Tu" is the familiar form equivalent to "thou" in English. The familiar is not used in English
Is "thou" really the familiar in English? or "thee"?
In any case, you're both right. "Vous" is both for formal usage and for all plural groups. So you would say "tu" to a close friend, but "vous" when addressing a group of close friends who you would "tutoye" if you were speaking to them individually.
And yes, "tutoyer" is an actual French verb, meaning "to use the tu form with"!
>>> Is "thou" really the familiar in English? or "thee"? <<<
I am not an (Olde) English major, but I believe "thou" is correct as a subject such as "Thou art fine." and "thee" is used as an object such as "I give this to thee."
Tom
Just as ye should know that "you" is not the nominative form.
JV, you are absolutely correct about tutouer and the usage of tu. Also, to add to the usage of tu, you would use it if you're an adult and addressing a child or student. (I'm studying French in school)
A few years ago, I was on a 2 train that had door problems at 149-GC. At the next stop, the C/R announced that he was discharging the train. Nobody got off. He had to translate that into, um, shorter words before the crowds (grudgingly) took notice.
Another thing: on the LED signs around the subway, the phrases "thank-you" and "on-time" occasionally appear. Neither phrase should be hyphenated.
There are a few of those along the 1 line. The scary thing is, the yellow sign is newer.
Where else? This is at 72, SB local, and it's the only one I've noticed.
Try 116 NB, but I don't remember if it has the spelling mistake.
It's not a stupid sign, it's just missing a period and a comma.
It should read as follows:
DRANAGE GATE VALVE NORMALLY OPEN. TO CLOSE, TURN TO THE RIGHT. (symbol)
Seems both the sign painters were lazy.
And valve is spelled v-a-v-l-e.
Mark
Yeah. Well, it takes a poor reader to catch some mistakes like that, or someone who has overcome dyslexia. An AP story recently went that the University of (Eastern?) Illinois recently discovered, after wearing them for three or four games, that their basketball jerseys read 'Illinios'.
-Hank
And that only after a viewer called it in to the local TV station that was airing the game.
Notice, however, that the old sign puts a line break where the period should go, while the new one runs the two sentences together. That's what I find most odd, aside from the misspelling.
I would have figured that NYCT would have a native Puerto Rican doing their spanish language signage.
-Hank
(So without the 'A', it's just "NYCT", as opposed to "the NYCTA"?)
Welcome back,
I just wanted to repost the poll so everyone can have a chance to vote. As a reminder, polling will close at 1:00 PM on Thursday, January 10th, and I will repost a message daily. Click here To see the details within the original post. Thanks for voting,
MATT-2AV
if u guys look in todays paper there is a article about how difficult a Engineer job is. They voted a Engineer a engineer of the year. The article is called NOT EVERYONE GETS TO DRIVE ONE OF THESE.
they show a pic of DE30 422. enjoy
Which paper?
Newsday. I wish I was working on the LIRR already. Tell them bums there to hire me already, I have been waiting over a year to get hired.
Put in your resume more than once, often the LIRR forgets you. If you talk to a LIRR employee, he will tell you that those from the outside had to put in resumes an average of three times.
NEWSDAY
Well if everthing gose well today with it, then tommow is the last day of testing. Is anyone going to try to ride it on the last day or for that pint the last trip of testing?
Robert
That gave me an idea. Thats something I can do to kill some time.
I hope that the trainset of R-143s makes it through the last day of testint without a hitch so that they're be more of them soon.
#3 West End Jeff
Keep your fingers crossed. It will be interesting to see how fast the TA puts these new MU's into service, IIRC they have 12 of them on the property, and someone else said they will be coming in at the rate of one car a week.
It will be interesting to see where the excess ENY fleet of R40S/R40M/and R42's will end up. Any ideas?
The cars could go anywhere. Many they'll replace the Slant R-40s on the "Q".
#3 West End Jeff
I would think that they would add to the Jamaica fleet, maybe to increase service on the "F" ("F" was cut from 50 to 45 trains on 12/16), or to increase "G" trains from 4 to 6 cars.
Good idea. Or how about increasing the frequency of R or V service?
That depends if they have enough cars to spare from the Eastern division of the BMT.
#3 West End Jeff
That ALSO is a good idea. Let's hope these 143's are placed in service as soon as they get to ENY, so the spare MU's can go to Jamaica.
I don't think Jamaica can handle any more equipment.
We had a discussion a while back about Jamaica. It's been said that the shop is not 'overloaded', but storage space may be an issue. I am sure something can be worked out to allow spare cars to be put on the Queens IND, to bring the "F" back up to it's pre-12/16 levels, or add to the "G"'s OPTO lenght trains.
There may have been talks about expanding the yard to the areas behind track 26.
Naaah, they'll squeeze 'em in somewhere. Even if they have to use the layups.
wayne
Where would the spare MUs run?
#3 West End Jeff
V Service, G Service and to increase F's from 45 to 50 trains.
F headways can't be decreased without increasing E headways, which would reduce service through 53rd. If you assigned extra trainsets to the F, where would they go?
Decreasing headways is akin to increase TPH, and that being said, the "E" headways were the same before 12/16 and now, so I do not see any ill effect by adding the 5 extra runs on the "F". What is the capacity of the Queens IND express tracks in TPH?
If the Queens Express tracks are the issue, decrease "V" service by 5 and increase "F" by 5.
That's not true. Prior to December 16, 2001, there were 12 E trains an hour in the AM rush. Now there are 15.
David
Prior to 12/16, how many "E" trains a hour were there in the AM as well as the PM?
What about after 12/16?
Thanks.
I'm not going to recite every schedule NYCT has ever had. I have reported the pertinent facts more than once -- enough is enough.
David
I neglected to read your other post. There were 12 "E's" before 12/16 and 15 after 12/16. What was the key reason for increasing headways on the "E" while truncating those on the "F"?
The reason was that service to the Lexington Avenue and Fifth Avenue stations along E. 53rd Street was being reduced from 30 trains an hour (18 F + 12 E). Although, obviously, not everybody riding the E and F trains was going to 53rd Street stations, enough were that the combined E + V would not be enough trains unless E service were increased.
David
So, in fact, service at 5/53 and Lex/53 is the same as before 12/16, because "E" service was increased to compensate for the fewer TPH that the "V" offers. Thanks for the information.
I didn't say that. The V is 10 trains an hour at best, and the E is 15. That's 25, as opposed to 30 (12 E + 18 F) pre-December 17.
David
So 53rd Street has a slight service decrease after 12/16, and 63rd Street a large increase. Since 63rd Street was a shuttle most times before 12/16, overall there is a large service increase on 63rd.
I don't want it to seen as though I'm nitpicking you but "add to the Jamaica Fleet?" Was it not you that was advocating reducing the Jamaica fleet last month? The ENY cars will likely not go to Jamaica. They'll likely go to Coney Island.
I should have been more clear, what I meant to say was add to the fleet of Queens Blvd. IND. If extra trains cannot be shopped and/or stored at Jamaica, then maybe Coney Island. I don't think you would see a huge surplus anyway at the onset.
I was not advocating reducing the fleet, I was suggesting a re-assignment of some cars to Coney since it was rumored that Jamaica shop and yard was overcrowded.
If they go to Coney, that would be just as well. Anyplace service can be improved would be good.
Is thier currently vercrowding problems on the 4 car G. If not there is no reason to increase the cost of operating g service
Yes there is currently overcrowding on the G line. I did the Rapid Load Check this past Monday morning at Clinton/Washington St.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
Is crime still a huge problem on the G. Back in the days when i went to brooklyn tech my queens friends would take the the d/q into manhattan to grab the F just to avoid the G.
I guess it depends on how your queen friends dress.
Don't tell, don't ask! There is still a way to go as far as tolerance of alternate life styles go.
avid
Dress like normal city folks. The crime problems range from stabings to jewlery riped of a girls ear. One girl had her ear lobe broken off. Back then the style was those huge ear jewlery
Ouch! just the thought hurts.
Warnings go out when the weather warms to cover or remove expensive jewlery. Chains and such. Its a war out there, but things have improved.
Still one must remain vigilant, to safeguard ones belongings.
avid G.N.
Welllll....I wouldn't go standing on the Flushing Avenue platform at 3:30AM whilst whistling a tune, but as far as crime is concerned, based on what I've heard and read, it's no worse there than anywhere else in the other residential parts of New York City. I.E. overall crime is down, but, unfortunately it still occurs. It's not as concentrated in one place as it once was.
wayne
F service can't be increased without decreasing E service. The two together max out their shared trackage.
You can change the pattern of F service, though, by sending some F trains through the express tracks east of 71/Continental. Of course, this had been considered not very popular whe tried.
I would be interested to find out how popular or unpopular the rush-hour 179-Express E's are. Are people at 169th Street and Van Wyck Blvd cursing at the passing expresses and calling their City Council members to complain, or are they OK with them?
I believe the E specials are running local, despite signage.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
Hey, those R42's can move as fast as the slants, as I recalled when they ran there in the summer of 1999. They don't have the neat railfan window, though.
They have a superior railfan window from the utilitarian standpoint. The R-40 window is tall and narrow, which makes it difficult for two to share the window (unless one is much taller than the other). The other railfan windows are wide enough for two to stand side-by-side unless the first to arrive hogs the entire thing for himself, which I consider extremely poor railfan etiquette. (No offense intended to our resident Pig.)
The other railfan windows are wide enough for two to stand side-by-side unless the first to arrive hogs the entire thing for himself, which I consider extremely poor railfan etiquette.
Most definitely. Reminds me of a Transit Museum field trip a few years back, probably the first one that I took Jr. on. Returning from the trip, we were changing trains at 180th Street after coming off the Dyre Avenue shuttle. One of the other participants on the trip - an older man in his 60s or beyond - shoved my son out of the way and sprawled himself across the railfan window so that no one else could see out. Needless to say, we got off before the doors closed and waited for the next train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sure the 4 slant 40 trains will go first, to Coney Island, with the others. The the modifieds will start going. The 6 R-32 trains will most likely be bumped off the N and sent either to Jamaica and/or Pitkin, becoming a 100% IND class for the first time. After that, who know. Eventually, even some 42's will stsrt moving elsewhere. Perhaps the C will get some and switch to 10 cars.
At the next pick, they really should consider fixing the Bergen interlocking, extending the V and G to Church, and having the F go express. They should also look into switching the C and E now, since we don't have the WTC terminal open to customers, and it would be easier on the switchmen at Canal to clean out the C's, then the more frequent E's. The E's heavier ridership would then get back their one seat ride to the Chambers area. If the C remains 8 cars, then perhaps they could send it to the Eastern Div., bringing some of the execss 143's to the main lines.
Well, I've already seen SOME of the lower-numbered Eastern Division Slants (e.g. 4402-4403) already on the Slant "Q"; so I guess these will be displaced first. What they might do is to displace the R40Ms (they have 98 cars plus an odd couple) in Eastern Division, along with the Slants, which would leave Eastern Division purely R42 and R143. These will probably be heading for Coney. OR maybe they'll do the "G" riders a service and set them out there, with the R46 going back into the "E"/"F"/"R"/"V" pot, then they can intensify service on the Queens Boulevard line.
wayne
I have no idea what will happen as to the redispersal of cars once sufficient R143's are part of the ENY fleet allowing reassigment of cars. From the standpoint of my logic, certain things will happen but in which order is something for the TA to decide. Slants, I would suspect would leave the Eastern Division first, then the R42 CI GOH and R40M's (not necessarily in that order). All these should go to CI. I suspect this since these cars (except for a few CI GOH cars) went to CI when the WillyB was closed, and I also expect ENY to keep the MK R42's since they put in the door enablers. CI in turn would be able to put R68 cars on the G which would enable the R46 cars be reassigned (still part of Jamaica barn tho) to improve and/or lengthen V service. CI would be able to transfer the rest of their R32's to Jamaica barn as well. If the TA decides to run 10 cars on the C, then Jamaica can send Pitkin some Phase 1's since they will get Phase 2 replacements from CI. And it will go on from there.
I think ENY has about 40 slants, 98 R40M sets and 110 R42 CI/GOH sets. That makes 248 cars. I suspect a little less than 200 will leave for CIYD when all 212 R143's are in, allowing for a bit more breathing room with spare cars. So you will be left with the 212 R143's, the 282 R42 MK's and the balance being either some of the R40M or some of the R42 CI/GOH. Again pure speculation on my part. And speculation opens up multiple cans of worms on this board because others will say what they want done, rather than saying what should be done in an orderly and logical way.
I defer to expertise but what would ENY do with R142s???? Aren't they Division B? My R142s can only run on IRT trackage. CI Peter
I re-read my post and I didn't notice saying anything about R142's. If I did, it can be considered a typo. Substitute R143 for R142 if I am mistaken.
You're right.....my error
"and someone else said they will be coming in at the rate of one car a week."
I believe I said, "There are 4 more R-143s at East NY Shop now. From a reliable source, 4 will be delivered weekly starting quite soon"
Someone other than yourself had mentioned one car a week, but I'll take the 4 cars a week that you stated.
These cars come in bunches, so I would have to say he meant "trainset" or "carset", meaning four individual cars.
wayne
Since no cars are independent anymore and married pairs aren't constructed either, a 'trainset' refers to the A cars on the ends and the B cars in between permantly linked. My R142s run two trainsets...two five car units hitched together. CI Peter
It is not one car per week, it's car per day for four day Mon-Thur and Friday on Friday they get ship from 207 yard to ENY.
Robert
Look for the slants to go first to Coney Island. My other guess is that the modified R40's will also go to CI. This will allow some R32's to be returned to Pitkin.
Wayne's new base will be Coney rather than Canarsie then =).
It makes sense for the shovelnoses to go to CI, then the 32's can go back to Pitkin or Jamaica. The N will go from 4 car types (32/40/68/68A) to two or three then.
The really beaten down slants will -- I hate to say it -- end up at the scrapper. The later units that came with factory A/C (pre-GOH) will likely hang around a few more years. Unofortunately, some of those cars are getting long in the tooth like the Redbird fleet.
BMTman
In the film "Nighthawks," there's a scene where Sylvester Stallone and Billy Dee Williams, playing cops, are chasing a bad guy through the subway. Part of the scene takes place in a tunnel undergoing construction.
Does anyone know whether this tunnel scene was shot in the 63rd Street tunnel? The film was released in 1981 so the Tunnel would still have been under construction at that time.
Yes it was! They ran into the 57st Station from there, and that is where a veteran fleet of R units came in for the downtown run. Sounds weird that the train came from the north because the trains turned around in the station and not north of it, sounds like an edited graphic. Was that R-9's running on the B for that movie?
The scene originated in the 63rd St line tunnel near the cut for the 2nd Ave subway. They ran north along the B'Way line segment to what was supposed to be 57th St. Normally, at that time the Astoria or Queens Blvd. line would have used thst track. It looks like the station scene was actually filmed at Hoyt St. (notice the wooden signs on the columns stating 57th St.)
Yes, they used Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. for "57th St" and "42nd St".
The train was corectly marked as a B; however, one side destination sign was set to Kings Highway. The side signs were even backlit!
Thanks to the DVD, I was able to ID three of the cars: 800, 1208, and 1802.
If you view the scene frame by frame where Stallone tries to pry the doors apart, watching from inside the car, you can see an undisguised "Hoyt Schermerhorn" platform sign.
Check at this site below for updates on the culver shuttle route and subway cars.
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/_whatsnew.msnw
How are passenger counts made in systems like LA or MUNI that use a "Proff" of Payment system? Could it be just an estimate or do they count how much revenue was brought in and use some ratio to count passengers?
It's usually an estimate, based on direct ticket sales, plus the adverage ridership using passes of various kinds.
In Los Angeles, an MTA employee with a hand-held device sits near the bus driver and counts passengers as they enter. This, of course, is done on a sometimes basis. I've never observed any sort of formal effort to count subway and light rail passengers, so other than relying on ticket sale numbers from in-station machines, I assume that an educated guess is made. The great majority of regular MTA riders use passes.
Going back about 10 or 12 years, there was a guy who was employed by NJT to walk through their trains with a clicker and count the passengers. Although this guy walked with a limp, he could absolutely fly down the aisles -- madly clicking away with his clicker.
At the time I used the Metropark station. I remember him coming through a rush hour train from front to back between NY and Newark, then coming through back to front between Newark and Metropark. Don't know what he did beyond there.
CG
Thanks for the responses.
Is it possible that these systems might fudge the numbers to make it seem like they carry more than they really do? Maybe to get more state or federal funding?
It is very easy to fudge numbers like "annual passenger count" when they are based on limited samples. This is because of the number of assumptions that need to be made to bring a few sample points up to an annualized figure. Given the amount of $$ riding on these figures, there's a pretty high likelihood that these numbers are fudged either up or down for any variety of reasons. Higher numbers might be desirable when the system is looking for additional funding. Lower numbers when they are purchasing their insurance for the year.
One might expect that an independent auditor could be used to comment on the validity of the numbers, but I'm guessing this isn't done in practice very often.
Back when the LIRR closed about 10 stations, they were accused of fudging some of the numbers downward on the stations they wanted to close. One particular allegation was that they did their count of daily passengers at the Southampton College station during semester breaks.
CG
The unlimited MetroCards are surely leading to slightly inflated numbers. Once or twice, I've exited and entered fare control (or vice versa) for the sole purpose of increasing the passenger count.
>>> Once or twice, I've exited and entered fare control (or vice versa) for the sole purpose of increasing the passenger count. <<<
Now that is Weird! Almost as bad as posting useless messages to this board to obtain a certain post number.
Tom
Not weird. He's trying to make his favorite station seem a little busier, so it gets higher priority for better service, continued token booth presence and earlier rehab...
:0)
I've read his posts on the matter, and I don't think he cares about continued token booth presence.
Me? Continued token booth presence? I'm the one who's been pushing for the removal of the token booth at the rush-hour-only entrance to my station. That way HEETs would be installed and the entrance could stay open at all times. The station has heavy off-peak usage yet the only off-peak entrance (and exit) is near the far south end.
But really, I'm trying more to make the entire system seem a little busier, pushing it just a tiny bit towards getting the funding it deserves.
>>> I'm trying more to make the entire system seem a little busier, pushing it just a tiny bit towards getting the funding it deserves. <<<
Don't forget the law of unintended results. Using an unlimited MetroCard to make the system seem busier may result in a bump upward in the price of the unlimited card when the bean counters see how often they are used.
Tom
Serious questions about counting arise even when there is a good counting device. NY bus riders, even those with school passes, slow the boarding process by dipping their Metrocards into the fare boxes instead of flashing a pass as in Jersey City. Yet, when the NYC Transit Riders Council asks the TA for numbers of transfers vs. number of first-payments on individual bus routes, the TA refuses to yield the data. As far as the LIRR is concerned, station figures are given for a two-hour peak boarding period (once a year?), with the result that reverse and off-peak commuters don't get analyzed. Because the tickets nicely can be used in either direction, only an audit of each train's ticket collection will give a hint of which zones people go to, but it won't tell which station within the zone. When I buy a ten-trip off-peak ticket between zones 1 and 7, my punched ticket is the only record of its use, uncles someone collects the punched paper from the floor! Concerning the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, which does not accept transfers (or does it this month still accept Quickpass?), the cash flow registered by the machines is probably quite accurate and ought be disclosed. Are they still collecting only 10% of operating expenses?
As far as the LIRR is concerned, station figures are given for a two-hour peak boarding period (once a year?), with the result that reverse and off-peak commuters don't get analyzed.
Counting techniques earned the LIRR some criticism about four years ago. In preparation for delivery of the bilevel diesel coaches, which require high-level platforms for boarding, the LIRR conducted passenger counts at some of the lesser-used stations on diesel lines, to identify the ones whose ridership levels didn't justify the cost of building platforms and therefore would be closed. One of the stations that was shown to have very low ridership was the Southampton College station on the Montauk line, not to be confused with the regular Southampton station. But then it was pointed out that the LIRR conducted its survey when the nearby LIU campus was out of session, and the low passenger counts were predictable. Ridership was much higher when college was in session. Unfortunately, the complaints didn't persuade LIRR management, and the station got the axe.
They're still not running.
For the history, click here.
For the current disposition, click here.
I heard today from an Inspector (Boston version of a TSS) on the Green Line that they may appear in testing once again in May, as Breda is preparing a modification to the center truck (which has been the culprit in most of the derailments).
We're coming up to the fourth anniversary of the prototype's arrival on MBTA property (Jan. 31, 1998). And you think the 30-day tests in NYC take too long!
If any of my Boston colleagues have new or different information, that would be great to hear.
"If any of my Boston colleagues have new or different information, that would be great to hear."
Todd,
I heard something on this board about a test track being built out at the Riverside Station for the type 8s....thats all I've heard. I just hope they can fix this problem and get these cars into service, those Boeings need to die at some point. -Nick
I just hope they can fix this problem and get these [Breda] cars into service, those Boeings need to die at some point.
Does this mean Boston uses the same cars as SF Muni Metro?
I'll be sad to see the old Boeings go in SF. Though they weren't handicapped accessible, and weren't A/Ced, and the orange plastic interiors didn't wear well ... they were MUCH lighter than the Bredas, which were so heavy they basically destroyed my neighborhood's uphill curves which had to be entirely rebuilt to handle 'em.
Got a pic of a Boeing in T livery? I've only ever seen 'em in SF Muni white & orange. What other cities used these cars?
Yes,
Boston does use the same cars as the SF Muni Metro..though the Muni metro has been phasing them out for quite sometime now. You can find pictures of the Boston Boeings on this website, go to Boston in the "other cities" section. -Nick
Todd I was speaking to an MBTA Instructor who relates that sometime in spring after the snow is off the ground. They will be running non revenue trips after hours to make sure they have the problems worked out. Steve
MUNI has "officially" phased them out...the "last day" was supposed to be this past Friday, but supposedly there were none in operating shape by then, making 12/31 the last day they ran.
MUNI has "officially" phased them out...the "last day" was supposed to be this past Friday, but supposedly there were none in operating shape by then, making 12/31 the last day they ran.
I'd heard that they had ONE pristine, unused (or restored?) Boeing retained for historic purposes. Know anything about that?
There IS one that has been saved. As for it being unused or in pristine condition, there's no such thing at SanFrancisco Muni. Muni could screw up a brand new rock.
Is Muni that bad?
-Robert King
Is Muni that bad?
The employees don't have the best reputation for efficiency OR politeness. SF has even nuttier far-left union advocates than ... ummm ... other cities. I think if employees were EITHER polite OR efficient, people wouldn't mind so much. But they're mostly neither.
And the bus drivers kill/injure a LOT of civilians. I think they had a month many years ago where one pedestrian was killed each week for a month, and this in a city of only 750,000.
There's even a local comic strip called "Puni," all about how bad Muni is.
OTOH, they have a LOT of transit, and of varied kinds, for a city of that size. And their Market Street historic line is second to none, and a HUGE tourist draw. Best of all, residents use the 50+ year-old PCC cars for regular everyday transit.
So, mixed bag.
let me count the ways...
MUNI has a well earned rep for deferred maintenance as SOP,
The tales over the years of no spare parts (bufget cuts), de facto service cuts by refusing to fill open job slots, missed runs for lack of operable equipment, or no show operators.
For more gory detail visit
>>http://www.rescuemuni.org/<< tales from New Years' Eve are instructive.
Management asked for extra operators to beef up service but so many drivers wrote off
"sick" that they had no extras.
To complicate matters the worse than useless inspectors gave conflicting orders further screwing up service on the LRV's.
"Management asked for extra operators to beef up service but so many drivers wrote off "sick" that they had no extras."
Last New Year's Eve, a bunch of BART operators pulled the same stunt. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CommuterRail/message/1504
And the net result is that the 'extras' got in effect double time and a half while the slackers took a paid evening off. Just the middle finger so appreciated by the citizenry.
Here Here...
MUNI is the worst mass transit system in the country, but not for a total lack of trying. In truth, the city is set up in such a way that a truly world class system could exist. The bus, trolley, and light-rail lines are laid out relatively well, and, there is a history of public committment to mass transit (at least in theory).
The problem is that the scheduled service would be inadequate even if the actual service was anywhere close to what is scheduled (which it isn't). Service essentially dries up after 7pm, and only certain routes have anything approaching frequent service during the day. The buses that do run are either empty or jammed at nearly all hours of the day (I have seen them go from articulated to mini-sized buses on the 15 line at 7pm. Talk about crammed!)
Equipment and employee failure is so common that every employee in the city can say "I am late because of MUNI" and getting a knowing look, instead of a scowl, from their employer. Huge, random unexplained service gaps are so common that anyone there dependent on a bus or train that isn't a major trunk line (like the 38 or 15 or 30 bus) simply cannot plan their day around public transit.
The only thing worse than MUNI is trying to own and drive a car in SF. Why MUNI sucks so bad when BART, AC Transit, and SamTrans are pretty good is beyond me. They should fumigate the entire city of SF and start over...
Do you know what the number of the Boeing to be saved is? At one point I think they were planning to save 1213, which was one of the demonstrators, but that unit was sent to the Oregon Electric Railway Historical Society. Interestingly enough, as many problems as Muni seemed to have keeping these things going, OERHS has been able to get 1213 operational!
Frank Hicks
LRVs, or at least their preservation, seem to be a touchy subject with museums for a couple of reasons. Most museums don't need to worry - either the systems they collected streetcars from abandoned prior to LRVs, or LRV retirement is a long way off so they don't need to worry quite yet. The Boeing LRVs are the only ones (to my knowledge) that are being retired soon which makes them the only candidates for preservation.
Anyways, a museum shouldn't have too much trouble keeping one Boeing LRV running. Muni and the MBTA have to keep fleets of them running under in service conditions which are much harder than those encountered in museum operations. Museums also don't need to worry about reliability too much either - if a streetcar in a museum conks out, it isn't a huge deal and it can be put aside until it's convenient to fix it (money, parts, labour, shop capacity are all available). Keeping a fleet of Boeings running reliably under service conditions can be labeled as 'difficult' compared to other LRVs but it shouldn't be as difficult for a museum to keep one working enough of the time.
Another thing - Boeings and all other LRVs have solid state electronics instead of the mechanical equipment found on older cars. Quite a few people I've spoken to seem to think that the electronics pose a significant problem to keeping LRVs operational when the time comes for them to be placed in museums. I disagree for several reasons but I'm to tired at the moment to write them up.
-Robert King
There will be no problem maintaining an LRV for the next 100 years,
provided when a museum acquires one, it also acquires at least
one complete car's worth of critical spare parts, particularly the
solid-state ones. It should also retain every last technical
document pertaining to the car so that if a component does fail
and there are no replacements left, a "black box" substitute can
be fabricated using what would then be modern components.
Even classic electrical equipment can be hard to maintain with
100% authenticity. Last year I had a failure on Hi-V car 3662.
It was an open line switch dropping resistor. The unit that was
on the car had a Westinghouse part #, which was a big tip-off that
it had been changed by one of the operating companies and it was
not the original 1907 piece (this is a GE car). Modern power
resistors do not have exactly the same dimensions and values.
I used a modern substitute, mounting it in the same location as
the original, and I saved the original for archival purposes.
The alternative would have been to spend hundreds of dollars having
a more "authentic" replacement custom-fabricated. The same decision
will face museums that preserve an LRV when a solid-state part
fails, except the cost of custom fabrication of an identical
replacement of, say, the chopper power transistor (what did those
use, anyway? Too early for IGBT. GTOs? FETs?) would be measured
in the tens of thousands, at least.
FYI All you LRV fans Seshore has a car waiting to go to Maine from the MBTA with it's original plug type doors
Right, Stevie! At Seashore we are also fortunate to have among our volunteers a number of retired MBTA Green Line inspectors/instructors who have a lot of experience with the Boeing LRVs.
At Seashore we are also fortunate to have among our volunteers a number of retired MBTA Green Line inspectors/instructors who have a lot of experience with the Boeing LRVs.
Todd: I may have missed it, but does this mean that Seashore actually has one or more pairs of Boeings? (And what's Seashore's website, if there is one?)
Seashore's board has approved the acquisition, and the MBTA has set aside one of the unmodified cars (3444 if I recall correctly). But it hasn't been moved yet.
Seashore's Web site is www.trolleymuseum.org.
1. Those points are pretty much equivilent to my position from the outset; I'm just so sick of hearing moaning about electronics....
2. Yes, they used Gate Turn Off (GTO) Thyristors. The earliest use of Insulated Gate Bipolar Transitors (IGBTs) that I know of would be the Scarbourough RT cars of the very early 1980s (design began in the late 70s) which have a couple in each car to power the linear induction motors.
-Robert King
I know 1213 DID go to a museum up in Oregon...but there IS a unit "preserved" right in San Francisco. It can be seen on the tracks by the Mint when you ride the J/N lines into the Duboce Tunnel (at least it was there when I was up in SF a few months ago).
There IS a very well run Yahoo Group put together by a streetcar operator at Muni. The group is called "sfmunihistory". The folks thatc ontribute to the group all seem to be decent, none of the flame wars, banter, etc. (of course, the group IS moderated...) The group moderator DID put up data files indicating the disposition of each and every Muni PCC and Boeing.
No other cities used Boeings. After Boston and San Francisco got them and the problems started showing up, nobody wanted to buy them.
-Robert King
True, but you could consider Buffalo's L-O-N-G LRV's as non-articulated Boeings (U.S. Standard Light Rail Vehicle). Philadelphia's Kawasaki's could be considered as single unit USSLRV's, since they seem to be CLRV bodies with USSLRV ends and blinker doors.
I'd hardly consider any of those LRVs to be Boeings. Even if those LRVs you mentioned had their own problems, I don't think that they were as serious as those encountered on the original Boeing since it was such an example to learn from. Also, none of those LRVs were built by Boeing and all of them came about several years after.
-Robert King
I'd hardly consider any of those LRVs to be Boeings. Even if those LRVs you mentioned had their own problems, I don't think that they were as serious as those encountered on the original Boeing since it was such an example to learn from. Also, none of those LRVs were built by Boeing and all of them came about several years after.
But clearly they look similar, esp. the end caps. What is the design history? Did Boeing sell the designs & tooling to another company?
But consider this analogy:
Most computer keyboardls look similar, particularly in the key layout. It hardly means that I can take my Amiga 2000's keyboard and plug it into this PC or consider it to be basically an IBM AT keyboard just because it looks kind of like one.
-Robert King
Q. Boeing-Vertol did assemble an order for the CTA. Since those cars were designed by the CTA, are they are as troublesome is the Boeing-Vertol LRV?
As far as I know, the CTA's Boeing-Vertol cars (the 2400-series usually found on the Green and Purple lines) have held up rather well. I think they had their mid-life overhaul a few years ago. Of the CTA's current fleet, it has been the Budd 2600's that have been the most trouble-prone, and those are now undergoing their own major overhaul.
Maybe some other CTA experts can provide more info, or correct me if I'm wrong.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I wonder what's up with Breda. Atlanta's new Breda subway cars arrived just over a year ago and they have been in regular service for a few months now, so not all their products suck.
I personally think the Breda trains are the ugliest trolleys i have ever seen. I hope the MBTA never uses them.
Let's face it. Breda may build fairly attractive subway cars for US properties, their LRV's win first prize in an ugly contest. Muni's are Ugly (that's ugly with a capital U), and the Type-8's make the Type-7's look like a classic.
Advice to all operators of Light Rail: write your car contract specs to exclude Breda as a bidder.
Agreed, not one of their trolleys is, in my humble opinion, atttractive in any way. And it all started 20 years ago with the "Bulldogs" for Cleveland's RTA.
Boston did something similar when going out to bid for the new Blue Line cars -- they issued a Request for Proposals (where qualitative factors count as well as price) vs. an Invitiation for Bids (where the lowest price wins). Therefore, Breda's history with the MBTA counted against them. While I'm not sure the order of the price proposals, the team led by Siemens won.
"I hope the MBTA never uses them."
I think they will use them, its just a question of when. it seems like they found the culprit of the derailments, so once that is fixed you may actually see them replace the 50-55 Boeings, as well as adding 45 more cars since 100 complete the total order. -Nick
See where the BMT wanted to serve Staten Island, see it here: http://www.rapidtransit.net/net/thirdrail/0201/sirt9.html
Can you imagine the mess the 4th Ave line would be today with half a bridge to service all the current West End/4th Ave/Sea Beach/Brighton riders plus those coming from SI? And remember, the Culver line used 4th Ave at the time this was proposed. Talk about a logjam at Dekalb Ave!
This is the same post I posted on BusTalk under "More Observations."
All in all, a wierd morning for Ride-On. We had a freak frozen rain shower this morning which made things quite a mess. When I went out at about 6:45 to get the paper, it was raining but it wasn't frozen. About 15 minutes later, I headed for the subway and only encountered black ice a block from my house and then at several other locations along the way. Headed down into the Metro and got my normal T/O. When I got to Grosvenor, I got off the train, had traction on the granite edge, but as soon as I stepped onto the red normal tiles, I realized that it had all frozen over and one could barely walk! I managed to get to the overhang and the tiles there were, luckily, dry. The slippery conditions were found again as soon as I had exited the station and was walking towards the buses. At this time, the J5 had arrived on the other side of the station and the ladies who transfer from the J5 to the 37, some of which were wearing high heels, were trying to get to the shelter.
Most buses were late. The 6 seemed to be doing OK. The Rock Spring bound bus was a 5200 series (I got a photo to be developed). The Wheaton bound bus was 5151, one of the highest of that type I've seen. The 37 was Orion I 5525, arriving late due to the icy conditions. More people were going outbound than coming inbound, although this 30 foot thing really doesn't work for this run. The 7:15 46 from Montgomery College was a 35 foot Gillig although I didn't catch the number. I didn't see the 47 I mentioned yesterday. The other 37 was a CNG again although I didn't wait around to see what number it was.
More to come as time progresses!
We have had some interesting discussion lately about the Multis and the R-16s. They along with the Bx's spent most if not all of their lives on the Eastern Division of the BMT. Even today the Myrtle Avenue and Broadway-Brooklyn Lines give the closest approximation of what it was like to ride the old elevated lines. Indeed the present day line between Gates Avenue and Cypress Hills is none other than a somewhat rebuilt Lexington Avenue El. (BMT Rt#12 or "The Old Main Line."
The Multis spent almost all their time here as they were the only cars that could cover the #13 14 Street-Fulton Street Express service. They also covered runs on the #16 14 Street-Canrsie Line and spent their final days on the #10 Myrtle-Chambers Line.
The BX's could always be found here because the BMT was nervous about taking the trailers over the Manhattan Bridge.
Now our old friends the R-16's by and large spent most of their carrers here covering the #14 and #15 services with side trips to the #10 and the #16. Yes a few of them made occassional vists to the IND and in the chaotic days of the early 70's they did wander a bit
before settling down on the EE and GG. Nevertheless they did return to the Eastern Division for their final days running on the LL (#16).
Another car that was almost exclusively Eastern Division was the C-Types. During their rebuilding the had extensions added at floor level so that they could no longer run over lines having clearances for only nine foot wide cars.(i'e. Fifth Avenue,Lexington Avenue, Myrtle Avenue below Broadway) They could always be found on the Fulton Street El though I think a few turned up on the Southern Division every now and then usually covering some shuttle service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry. I remember some BXs on the Brighton Local and West End Line, even when the Brighton Local ran over the Bridge when the Exp was not running in the mid 50s
BX's 2440 - 2459 (trailers 4020 - 4029) were supposedly assigned to the Southern Division in the early 1950's. I did see several of these in service on the Eastern Division though.
The other 120 BX cars (80 power & 40 trailer) were assigned to the Eastern Division.
Running a BX over the Manhattan Bridge was not a thing that the NYCTS liked doing, but 40 BX sets were about all that the Eastern Division could handle, and that left the 10 remaining for the Southern.
They would run a BX across the Williamsburgh Bridge, but only in a six car train with a B set or three A's.
Karl: Although I may have riden them on vists to my parents friends, I can't ever recall riding the BX's. Were they very different from the Standards with motors?
Larry,RedbirdR33
No, not really. I guess that the big difference was that the middle car of the three car set was a trailer. The 4000 cars had no trace of a motorman cab. They also had the larger side signs, whereas their 2400 series helpers had the smaller.
I think it is interesting to note that all of the 4000 trailers had operating door controls, even though they didn't have motors, and the door controls were used when the 4000 trailer was the fifth car in a six car train.
And of course, they were quieter. You only heard the muffled motor sounds of the adjacent 2400s.
IIRC, the IRT trailers weren't quite as quiet ... they didn't have their own motor noise, of course, but the construction and smaller volume of the IRT cars suppled lots of other noises.
You're right! I never realized when I was in an IRT trailer.
I was a dedicated BMT fan though, and to me the IRT was just transportation.
I remember my first sight of a Lo-V. It was coming in on the citybound local track at Franklin Avenue.
It was so ugly and noisy I practically jumped a foot! I swear it looked like kind of weird noisy demon with its smoky visage, colored stalk-eyes and growl. I guess it was the gearing, but IRT equipment even growled when it was slowing down--BMT Standards weren't like that.
I shouldn't dump on the IRT. In my old age I have even acquired a LO/V signbox.
I can remember the pushers helping us to get on the IRT at Brooklyn Bridge. BMT crowding was bad, but I never saw it as bad as the IRT at Brooklyn Bridge.
The thing I remember most about the BMT standards was the "tchhhhhhhhhhhh" sound they gave off as they came to a full stop. Since they also had spur-cut bull and pinion gears, they made the same moaning and groaning sounds as the R-1/9s when accelerating.
The 4000 series trailers did have the larger side signs, but the placement was different from that on the 2000 series motors. On the motors with the larger side signs, the signs were in the windows adjacent to the middle set of doors. On the 4000s, they were in the next window over, adjacent to the quarter-point doors.
-- Ed Sachs
You're remembering more than I can, and I thought I really knew the Standards.
Bob: Thats very interesting. Maybe the TA was a little more daring than the BMT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I specifically remember riding a Brighton Special in the trailer of a BX going up the H track grade. I remember it because I knew about the BX restriction and wanted to see whether we'd really go rolling backwards into DeKalb.
I won't say we zipped up the bridge, but neither did I get the impression we were going to fail at any minute.
The train was 6 cars, a BX and a B.
Thanks Paul, its nice to hear from someone who actually rode these rare birds.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Paul,
So nice to hear from BMT AB fans like myself. Just taking in all this nostalgia. They and the D-types are my all time favorites. I just don't get some of those D-type fans who call the ABs the sub-standards. Hey guys, remember, they were both the mainstays of the BMT. As Reagan used to say "thou shall not speak ill of fellow Republicans" Same should be said about BMT equipment.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Darn! No one had to say "Everybody out and push!":-)
>>Larry. I remember some BXs on the Brighton Local and West End Line, even when the Brighton Local ran over the Bridge when the Exp was not running in the mid 50s<<
I remember the 4000 series trailers on the Brighton Line too. I used to see them peering through the fence on the overpass while they entered the Newkirk Ave station southbound. I didn't take notice of their numbers or that they were trailers, but I remember them as the Standards that didn't have shoe beams. This may have been before the R-27s started appearing.
Bill "Newkirk"
I used to see them peering through the fence on the overpass while they entered the Newkirk Ave station southbound.
I used to hanh out with my bicycle on the property of the ruined Matts (ExLax) Mansion on the southwest corner of Albemarle Road and the Brighton cut every evening. When I saw the first Brighton Local approach northbound with Red and Green marker lights, I knew it was time to get the Daily News at Church Ave. station.
What year was this? Read and Green marker lights were used on the Brighton Express. The northbound Brighton Local was Red and Red, and southbound was White and White (at least through most of the 1950s and 60s).
-- Ed Sachs
What year was this? Read and Green marker lights were used on the Brighton Express. The northbound Brighton Local was Red and Red, and southbound was White and White (at least through most of the 1950s and 60s).
Well, not exactly. Red and green were the markers (post-1920) for the Brighton BRIDGE train. That meant all expresses plus Brighton Locals running via bridge carried red and green.
That's how I knew it was time to get the Daily News (about 8:30pm). Seeing the first local pass with red-green instead of red-red meant that the last express of the evening had passed.
At some point, they changed it so that the Brighton Bridge Locals had the same marker lights as the Tunnel Locals. By 1960, this had been was the case.
-- Ed Sachs
I'm fairly sure the red-green lasted until Chrystie Street. I lived there until 1965, was heavily involved in railfanning, and think I would have noticed if it had changed.
However, if anyone knows different, I'd be interested...
Were both Brighton locals operating at the same time then? By the mid-60s, the QB was a late night-weekend service only.
QT and QB (pre-Chrystie) were not separate services, they were the same old Brighton Local operating by Tunnel or Bridge.
Yes, but they did not operate at the same time. Not by the mid-60s, anyway. The Q and QT ran together, and the QB took over when those two weren't running.
Larry, as Brighton Bob said, I recall BXs on the Southern Division with regularity, but the rule of thumb was that you never put two BXs in one train, and the northbound H track going up the MB was the reason.
As to the R16s, maybe I'm reflecting when I did my heaviest riding (1957-1964, I would say) but I rarely saw R16s on the 14. It was almost totally Standards. An R16 on the 10 was a rare treat (because it was something different) and there always seemed to be a train or two of them on the 16. Yes, I did see R16s on the "Broadway Short Line" but it was a notable occasion.
I never got to ride a Standard on the 15, which was solidly R16s, except when a good snow storm sent the R16s scurrying for shelter.
Paul: Like yourself I never remember riding Standards on the #15. I do recall riding the #14 usually in the pm rush after school and it usually was R-16's. The cars requirements for the #14 in the am rush may have been heavier because of the Jamaica Skip-stop service.
So it was the northbound H track on the bridge which was the nemesis of the BX's. I guess that was due to the curve on the Manhattan end.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I guess that it is one of the few advantages of being older, but I can remember when the Jamaica train was nothing but Standards, BX's included, with the gate trains alternating them during rush hour.
Now riding the gate cars out to 111th St was really a treat!
You're one up on me on that one Karl. Never rode a gate car in regular service anywhere but Myrtle.
The period from the end of the War to Chrystie Street was a time when a year or two could make an enormous difference in the lines and equipment you remember.
Especially consider that the Brooklyn trolley system was pretty much intact in 1946 and gone gone gone just 10 years later.
Living 60' off Crescent St, gave me the opportunity to watch them every rush hour until Oct 13th 1950. It was as if my world had come to an end.
I really loved those old cars!
We used to have trolleys running on Crescent St too.
It was as if my world had come to an end.
I know just what you mean. The end of the Church Ave. trolley (the early morning of November 1, 1956) put a hole in my young life.
The arrival of the R27s didn't do my childhood much good either.
The arrival of the R27s didn't do my childhood much good either.
Now, let's not speak ill of the (prematurely) dead.
Yeah it's sad that they spent most of their life looking like hell, and just when they got them (R27-30)all cleaned up (as B Divisions verssion of the Redbird), they were scrapped. Someone had mentioned that the only reason the were scrapped so early was because they would have been hard to convert to air conditioning.
By the way, we had talked alot about the R16's lately and their traveling, what about the R27-R30's, did they spend time for any amount of time on lines other than the Easter Div and the C line? How much did they travel, even if for brief periods of time?
The R27/30s were strictly Southern Division cars until Chrystie Street. They debuted on the Brighton Local (QT/QB), then began nighttime and weekend service on the RR. Soon thry provided all service on the RR. After that they moved onto the West End and Sea Beach (forget the order) for nights/weekend service.
At one point or another they covered every Southern Division service. I only recall them on the Brighton Express (pre-Chrystie) on Saturdays, when the Local and Express flipped equipment, and on the Brighton-Nassau specials.
Which reminds me--they now run Fulton Street (A) Expresses for extended hours and days (Sat/Sun), when do we get a weekend Brighton Express back?
It would certainly be nice to run the Slant "Q" on the weekends, esp. during the day - perhaps the Slants themselves are part of the problem, they are getting old and are rusting away inside, there aren't many of them running at all on the weekend - even Eastern Division has surrendered 16 of them back to Southern (I saw #4402-3 on the Slant "Q" on 12/20/2001). I don't know if there would be a demand for weekend Brighton express, especially on Sundays. The Fulton, however, seems to be doing rather well.
I had seen some R27/R30 cars on the "AA" back in the mid 70s, it wasn't a full set; it was mixed with some R32s. Never saw any in Queens EXCEPT when they came in as "RR" service. The "RR" was FULL of R27/R30s by 1970 after the R16 vacated for Jamaica-Yard and R42s began moving in.
wayne
After Chrystie, the R27/R30 operated everywhere, with a possible exception of the A, CC, E, & F routes.
I saw an AA train of R-27/30s at 14th St. in 1968-69. Can't say for sure it was a solid train.
When do we get the Brighton Express back on weekends? A number of us have been wondering the same thing. Since the Q runs on 8 minute headways much of Saturday, wouldn't it be better to have the weekday non-rush schedule of 10 minute intervals with both express and local service on Saturday, at least? Or at least try it out from Memorial Day to Labor Day?
I think it should be tried. There were always Saturday expresses on the Brighton, plus Sunday during the summer.
Point is, there's no express service from the Coney Island area on weekends, and a lot more people live there than in olden days. It's about time.
Probably no full brighton express until the MB is fully open
If I remember correctly the last time that there was Saturday express serivce on the Brighton was in 1962. #1 Brighton Expresses ran between Astoria and Coney Island via Bridge but ran local in Manhattan. Brighton Local service was provided by the #7 Brighton-Franklin.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's correct, but the expresses were Q (R27/30). The locals were #7 (Triplexes). Kind of strange, but from January, 1961 until the end of Saturday express service in 1962, the Saturday expresses used equipment normally assigned to the Brighton Local (QT/QB), and the Brighton-Franklin locals (Franklin to Brighton Beach) used express equipment (hence the Triplexes, btw, with the 'via tunnel' sign lit).
Saturday service on the Brighton declined during the 1950s. Around 1957, the Saturday Brighton Local was cut back to Chambers St (from 57th), and in 1959 to just Franklin Ave. When the Saturday locals stopped running up Broadway, the Saturday Brighton Express used the local tracks on Broadway on Saturdays.
-- Ed Sachs
Did the Triplexes have a provision for neither (via bridge or via tunnel) sign to be lit? The Brighton-Franklin service stayed entirely in Brooklyn.
Did the Triplexes have a provision for neither (via bridge or via tunnel) sign to be lit? The Brighton-Franklin service stayed entirely in Brooklyn.
No, they had to light one or the other. There was a four position switch, key operated, which governed which of the destination signs and "Via Bridge" or "Via Tunnel" was illuminated. I believe it also controlled the color of the illumination of the front end signs (green for Bridge trains, white for Tunnel trains).
-- Ed Sachs
Makes you wonder why they didn't just use BMT standards on the Brighton-Franklin service, then. No big deal.
AFAIK, Triplexes were never used in regular Brighton-Franklin service, except for those Saturday Locals, and that was just as a matter of convenience.
Triplexes were signed for Franklin-Nassau service ("Coney Island Express") but I've never seen a picture of one in such service. I imagine they would have used the BRIDGE or TUNNEL markers on the Chambers Street end of the run, if they did.
Greller's book has a number of pictures of standards on the Brighton-Franklin Express, but unfortunately not of the Triplex in this service. I would love to have seen such a picture. I bet they were signed up as #7, as the Saturday locals were.
Unless it's for summer service, I doubt this will happen. Most people using the Brighton Line weekends seem to board and leave at Church Ave, so having a weekend express is not of much benefit.
During the summer, an express would be beneficial.
--Mark
Karl: Do you remember how close the old el lines came to some of those houses. I remember that the 3 Avenue El ran on an elevated private ROW south of 149 Street right up against the buildings. If the guy on the third floor was having breakfast you knew which way he liked his eggs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Riding on the platform between cars on the gate trains gave you quite a panoramic view, much greater than looking out the window from an inside seat. I saw quite a few sights that I shouldn't have seen, It certainly was an education for a young guy like me at the time.
You can still get that kind of view from some of the Chicago Ls.
-- Ed Sachs
The Red Line comes very, very close to some balconies between the State St. subway portal and the curve to Sheridan station.
My father used to love those cars in the summer. When I first found this site, he made me look for those cars he remembered using on the Myrtle elevated in the 1940's going to school.
Check out how close the M line is to some houses between Seneca & Fresh Pond. IIRC, I once saw a woman buck naked in a house along Fulton St as my Jamaica-bound J train stopped inside Cleveland St.
The M does get very close. I saw two people "very happy" on a bed, as the train went from Wyckoff to Seneca once.
Here's a pic to get you happy:
Chris, That is a great picture! I'd swear that is the turn at the west end of the Cypress Hills station, and that the train is turning onto Crescent St. If it is, the location is only about four blocks from my childhood home.
The last two cars shown seem to have a notice posted in the window. I wonder if that is the termination notice for service on the Lex. If it is, the picture must have been taken during Sept. or early Oct. 1950.
Do you have the original negative? Would you be willing to sell me a print? I tried to print it, but did not get a good result.
I'd swear that the next to the last car is a 900 series, and I wonder if it could be my favorite 902. I wish Jeff H could see the picture, he's the one who told me that the 900's were the same height as the others. I think that picture proves otherwise.
Thanks a lot for the posting, you made my day!
Karl B
This picture is not mine. I merely linked to it from this site. Check out all the other BMT gate car pics on this site.
I wonder if it was added there recently since I don't remember it from other visits.
I don't get as much internet time as I would like, so I don't peruse the rest of this site as often as I should.
Thanks Anyway, I really thought I might have found someone who had some gate car pictures that I hadn't seen..
You mentioned the intact Brooklyn Trolley Service in 46. All but 3 lines were gone in 5 years. I remember as a small child I used to ride the Nostrand Line quite a bit.alk about a waste of money. The dug up as far as I remember the entire track system South of Flatbush Ave(Bklyn College area) replaced the track and roadbed, and then suspended Trolley Service for Busses in 51
There was a plan to keep a core of 13 trolley lines--it was presumably under this plan that track was being rehabilitated only to be abandoned soon after. I don't know which lines they were, except that I know Flatbush was one and you could probably guess that some of the others would have been heavy lines such as Nostrand and Utica.
What changed? I'm not sure, but I believe BofT head Sid Bingham might have helped push things towards complete bus substitution.
So it was the northbound H track on the bridge which was the nemesis of the BX's. I guess that was due to the curve on the Manhattan end.
It was because of the excessive grade dipping under the A tracks then up the bridge on the Brooklyn side.
The grade is there. Fine. But what about the grade would make trailers a problem?
The BMT judged that the Standards did not have the horsepower to lug more than one trailer up that grade.
I also recall riding in 4000 series trailers of the BX's on the Brighton Local in the late 1950s.
When 200+ of the BMT Standards were rebuilt in the late 1950s, at least some of the single unit (A) cars emerged as two-car married pairs. I don't recall what designation these were given. Anybody know?
-- Ed Sachs
At least some of the rebuilt married pairs received the BT designation, which I remember from my days of riding the Canarsie line.
No A units were paired into twins in the rebuild. When the 4000 series trailers were pulled and scrapped, the higher numbered 2400s were made up into 2-car pairs called "BT" units--"T" for twin.
The lower numbered BX units were converted to B units by substituting former A units 2615-2649 for the missing trailers. Maybe that's what you had in mind.
Possible, but I seem to recall seeing these pairs prior to the arrival of the R27s, and I really doubt that they scrapped any of the 4000s prior to the arrival of the new cars.
-- Ed Sachs
Why did you think they were pairs? The only ways I can think of is if you saw two consecutive numbered cars next to each other or if you saw painted letters at the end of the unit indicated a twin. If the former, that's not definitive, because two consecutive A units could be side by side by coincidence. If the latter, then you would have remembered what the designation of a twin was?
The BTs (2400s) had slanted clerestory sides. Is that what you saw?
The 4000s were all, or almost all, put on the scrap lists in 1961, beginning in June.
Well, it's been over 40 years ...
I do remember is that the cabs between the two units had been removed.
-- Ed Sachs
If the cabs were removed, than you certainly saw a 2400 series ex-BX BT. The BMT didn't remove the extra cabs when they made up units, but the TA did in the rebuild.
Things happened really fast in 1961, with the R27s coming in and the Multis, 4000 trailers and SIRT cars all going to the scrapline, so its not difficult to lose track of what happened when.
ok... company is paying for it so I cant use priceline...
conference is at jacob javits but since i love the subway its not a big deal to me where i stay... :)
i want the best i can get for say 175-190 a night
any help there? :)
THANK YOU!!!
I intend to be out riding the rails this Friday and one of the places I will vist is Atlantic Avenue Station on the Canarsie Line. Is the R-143 still runnng or is the 30 day test completed.
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
As of tomorrow the 30 day test is over, so it might not run on Friday. They might keep it in for a few days to look it over very close.
Robert
I was on the Shore Line today. We ran pretty fast, until we got to Metro North territory. There was some catenary work going on and four tracks were down to three. We were signal checked about 5 times (although I don't think we were actually stuck behind a commuter train).
We entered MNRR territory on-time, and ran late into Penn Sta.
I also observed that for a distance of 71 miles, the Amtrak schedules were around 85 minutes. That's an average speed of 50mph.
I felt ashamed that we were being overtaken by adjacent TRUCKS on the highway -- right, not auto, but TRUCKS.
Metro North is a fuck-up. Everywhere else on the NEC, you actually feel FAST when you're in the train -- including the PRR section even though we were limited to 135mph (125mph Metroliner). On Metro North, they were so fucked up that everything had to go at 60mph.
Lexcie
they are not the only ones with problems. LIRR makes me soo mad sometimes. I like the LIRR for one reason and one reason alone. speed!
compared to the queens blvd line i can get to manhattan from rosedale in 30 min or less. But i remember one time they wrong railed from jamaica to rosedale during rush hours! not to mention they were restricted to 40mph. it took 20 min to get 2 rosedale when its supposedo to be 7-10min!
I know. Amtrak's Inland Route trains practically fly down the Inland Route while being pulled by diesel engines, mind you. Yet when they enter the Metro-North part of the NEC and are being pulled by electrics, they CRAWL! And when they get to New Rochelle, they really crawl!
I always thought electrics were supposed to be faster than diesels.
That's catenary replacement you were looking at. You're right - things are screwed up. If they don't replace that catenary soon, 60 mph will become 30 (the wires will start to snap off).
Blame it on CDOT, they don't want to spend the money to upgrade the catenary. MN replaced the wires in NY, but must work W? ConDOT for the rest.
It's getting done, but I'm impatient.
"Blame it on CDOT, they don't want to spend the money to upgrade the catenary"
Bad enough they are revamping M-2s instead of getting new cars like the LIRR, Hudson and Harlem Lines. Last time we got new cars was in 1994 with the delivery of the M-6s, and they basically look the same as the M-2s through M-4s. No new cars for CT until 2012...maybe in time for the New York City Summer Olympics?? :-) -Nick
No new cars for CT until 2012...maybe in time for the New York City Summer Olympics?? :-) -Nick
The 2012 Summer Olympics will be held in Stamford CT!!!!!
The Metro-North New Haven division IS SCREWED UP!! If it is too hot or too cold the train cannot be operated at speeds greater than 60 mph becuase the catenary wire dates back to 1910 to my best guess. It must of made you feel humiliated that TRUCKS of all things were passing the train that you were riding in on the adjacent Connecticut Turnpike. In this way the people who manage Metro-North have rifts in their minds infinitely wider the cleft in my palate which is covered over by the skin. As a matter of fact the rifts in their mind are so wide that you can run a double decker LIRR car through through the rifts.
#3 West End Jeff
In this way the people who manage Metro-North have rifts in their minds infinitely wider the cleft in my palate which is covered over by the skin. As a matter of fact the rifts in their mind are so wide that you can run a double decker LIRR car through through the rifts.
Jeff ... Jeff! JEFF ! ! ! Hey ...
It's not MN's fault. Blame ConnDOT for the decaying relics that were once decent catenary. And I understand it's being replaced. Just not today.
Sorry for the error, I didn't realize that the Connecticut DOT is to blame for the decaying catenary wire. I'm also thankful that they're finally replacing it. Maybe in a few years, even the M series commuter cars can travel at 90 mph on the New Haven division of Metro North.
#3 West End Jeff
(1) Some semaphore signals remain between New Rochelle and New York, almost certainly all out of service.
(2) They are installing new PRR signals between Penn Sta. and Newark International Airport. The Airport station is in service, and looks pretty good.
(3) As already mentioned, Metro North is under repair.
Lexcie
From www.1010wins.com:
NJ Transit Adding More Trains to Manhattan
Jan 9, 2002 5:54 am
NEWARK, N.J. (AP) -- Starting Sunday, New Jersey Transit will begin running six extra trains between Manhattan and New Jersey in an attempt to ease overcrowding problems.
The agency announced Tuesday it also will revise the schedules for about 50 existing trains, including in some cases adding or dropping stops, in an effort to make more seats available. It also will eliminate two trains that officials said have too few riders.
The cost of adding the six trains was not immediately available.
The changes primarily will affect the Morris & Essex Line, including Midtown Direct, the Northeast Corridor and the North Jersey Coast lines. There will be minor revisions on the Boonton, Bergen and Main lines and no changes on the Atlantic City, Montclair, Pascack Valley, Port Jervis and Raritan Valley lines.
Full details are available on the agency's Web site.
NJ Transit Executive Director Jeffrey Warsh said the changes will add seats for some customers traveling between New Jersey and New York -- where ridership has increased by more than 10,000 trips during the morning peak period -- while speeding the trip for others.
When the World Trade Center PATH station was destroyed in the terrorist attacks, the number of commuters taking NJ Transit trains to New York Penn Station increased from about 33,000 a day to 48,500 a day in October.
That figure has slipped somewhat since the fall, to 43,900 riders, but many trains remain badly overcrowded.
END OF ARTICLE
My apologies, I got 1/13 confused w/ last yr since it was the day the Branch Ave WMATA Sta opened. Sorry.
If I am not mistaken, did not Amtrak surrender four AM train "slots" to NJ Transit to make the new schedule possible?
Confirmed. I read this in the either TRAINS or RAILPACE this month.
Middays this week, the 1 is split at Utica, with service between Utica and New Lots at 20-minute headways. I take it the shuttle is single-tracking. Anybody know which track?
Track 1 to Junius, then switch to track 4 from Junius to New Lots. Plus there is no 1 service to New Lots this weekend, Please use the 4.
Which is track 1 and which is track 4?
Thanks.
If I Recall Correctly, the shuttles depart Utica Avenue on Track 4, which is the Manhattan Bound Local Track on the lower level, any other way would foul trains trying to relay into and out of Utica.
Trains switch to Track 1, NL Bound Track, to Junius St before switching back to Track 4 for the remainder of the trip to NL.
-Stef
You hit it right on the head, Stef!!!!
Its a fun G O Everyone yelling about waiting 20 minutes ,But Signals must get replaced on the EL during the day.
In the early 1980's, I remember single track shuttles on the J from Queens Blvd to Crescent St. 20 minutes would've been good time during that GO!
Why must signals ony be replaced during the day? Seems like alot of inconvenience during the middle of the day for a few signals.
On the elevated structure, workers can only do their jobs safely during daylight hours. The community residents would complain if large lights were put up to allow work to be done at night. Remember, if you are on an elevated structure, one wrong step could land you in the hospital, as in falling to the street below. That plus looking out for trains and trying to stay clear of the third rail restricts when work on elevated lines can be done.
Safety should be priority and it apparently is.
Signals? They are supposed to be rebuilding the structure itself, which causes them to close down the section they are working on. Depending on where they are, the shuttle can run as follows (All trips start or finish from 4 Trk at Utica)
SB Normal, NB 4 Trk to Penn Ave cross to 1 Trk
SB Normal, NB 1 Trk to Penn Ave cross to 4 Trk
NB Normal, SB 1 Trk to Junius cross to 4 Trk
NB Normal, SB 4 Trk to Junius cross to 1 Trk
NB Normal, SB 1 Trk to Junius cross to 4 Trk
This is what the train I rode this afternoon did. At Pennsylvania we were delayed due to a sick passenger, and at New Lots we had to wait for EMS before we could leave. (I was in the next car, not watching closely, but it looked like a bunch of people started to drag him out of the car -- he had been lying on the floor -- at which point he woke up. But don't quote me on that.) Naturally, when we got back to Junius, the other shuttle train was waiting for access to our track. I'm sure Utica was a mob scene when the first shuttle finally got back (I got off at Junius for the L).
Otherwise, it wasn't a bad ride. I was hoping for some serious speed in signal-free territory, but the stations are a bit too close for that.
Utica could have had better signage; I nearly ended up back in Manhattan. Nothing is posted on the TA web site on the 4 cutback to Atlantic, although it should be obvious. I'm amazed at how frequently 1 trains were relaying at Utica; some of them must get lost on the way uptown, since they're never that frequent in Manhattan.
The shuttle train starts on Track 4, switch to track 1 until Junius, then back over to track 4. This all for the Junius tower. I perfect view of the switch and tower from my house.
Lucky you! How about a webcam pointing out your window?
That has been suggested to me on numerous occasions since I have a view of the el here in the Bronx. Heh.
It would be great to document those R-142 Deliveries on tape.
-Stef
It would be great to document those R-142 Deliveries on tape.
Well, if it's a webcam ... on disk!
That would be something. The 1,L and the movements out of Linden Yard (including the R142 deliveries).
Otherwise, it wasn't a bad ride. I was hoping for some serious speed in signal-free territory, but the stations are a bit too close for that.
In theory, wrong-rail moves are limited to 10mph, UNLESS the area is signalled. Of the four scenarios, I believe that only the NB on 1 Trk from Junius to Utica is signalled for the reverse move.
ROTFL. That rule seems to be widely ignored. It certainly was on Thursday, although perhaps that was to make up for lost time due to the sick passenger.
Why is it necessary? Only one train at a time occupies the section of track in question. I suppose grade timers might still be an issue.
Why? I don't know. (He's on third).
Most of their rules have come from someone being the bad example - so it would seem at some point in time, somebody did something bad while going faster than 10 mph.
First off, does anyone know anything about the truth regarding a rumor I had heard from a fellow conductor that the TA wants to eliminate penalty jobs in the system and make ALL jobs a straight 8 hours? (THIS WOULD BE VERY BAD IF TRUE!! :-( ) Secondly I been hearing word from fellow employees and supervision that there is supposed to be an exam filing this month for Train Operator. Does anyone know if this test will be open competitive, promotional, both open and promotional or open competitive only? Lastly, also regarding the T/0 exam, why isn't information about this exam, if it is due to file this month, placed in any of the newspapers, or in The Chief, or on the nyc.gov or DCAS websites?
Because it is BS. The current list was extended just recently. Maybe another class will be out in a month or so.
If you can do three against the wall on the A in 8 hours god bless you.
>>>>>>>>First off, does anyone know anything about the truth regarding a rumor I had heard from a fellow conductor that the TA wants to eliminate penalty jobs in the system and make ALL jobs a straight 8 hours
What I have heard over the past couple of years is that the TA wants to "pre-package" tricks with RDO's. In this instance, the TA would package the penalty jobs with weekday RDO's, and the 8 hour jobs would get the S/S.
As far as making all the jobs 8 hours, for personal reasons, that's more than fine with me. If true, it would appear that the TA is trying to force the senior guys off the payroll and into the pension system.
In regards to the possible T/O test, I would be extremely surprised if this comes to fruition. Don't count on it.
I doubt they will do that. They cut so many bodies from the payroll with 10 hour C and L jobs, they would have to hire more operating crews to make up for it. I'd like to see ALL jobs 8 hours too. 24 dollar an hour jobs should be shared with others, not greedily hogged up by a few. Thats what RDOs and turn of the wheel overtime is for.
I'd like to see salary caps like they have for other titles. WAY too much favoritism on hours. Especially the CIY boys.
>What I have heard over the past couple of years is that the TA wants >to "pre-package" tricks with RDO's.
Like they do for other titles. Like that will fly. It would give lots of people a piece of the weekend years faster but as we know violation of senority. It would work in the yards as most of those guys havea piece of the weekend off.
One of the NTSB's findings after the 1995 WB crash was that
the TA had no system in place to prevent over-worked crew
and the problems that often result from it. Does the TA now
have any kind of "hours of service" rule for operating
personnel?
The "absolute rule" in recent times has been 16 hours continuous, excluding emergency conditions. If an operating person approaches their 14th hour working, they must notify Control of this fact so that their "relief" can be arranged for. Normally this only came into being regarding work trains. Also there is a mandated rest period of 8 hours between leaving work and returning. For regular assignments 10 hours is the rule. The 8 hours would apply if someone were held late, 10 hours would apply to picked jobs, or extra list assignments. Any less time, and notification must be made, so a re-assignment can be made.
However, Overtime for T/O's is practically non-existant, except for "penalty jobs". In fact, there is a memorandum that forbids any T/O overtime in excess of 2 hours, except to avoid a terminal ABD, and then only with approval from a Supt. C/R's are not so restricted, to my knowledge.
I don't think there going to do away with Penalty jobs anytime soon. In the A Div. Penalty jobs where added like on the No.2 Line.
Now about that rumor about the T/O Exam. There is talk one may come out at the end of the year for Promotionals. That has been a Strong rumor for a while.
My understanding is that the Union called for the minimum % of non-penalty jobs in the contract not the MTA.
For each new body you have to train them pay costs like health insurance, pension, vacation. If you rearrange work programs to stel the time from WAA and breaks you are asking for trouble as people become more stressed.
I heard on the NEWS12 Cablevision program that the LIRR is soon to be finally replacing the aging M1/M3 fleet this year. They said some 200+ cars are slated for the electricified lines by the end of the year. My question is does anyone have any technical info on the new cars? and who is the manufacturer of the new equipment? any info would be greatly appreciated....
Bombardier will be the manufacturer of the M-7, which will be, like the rest of the M fleet, 85' long, 10' 6" wide. The M-7 will be built with stainless steel, and equipped with AC asyncronous traction motors. Their maximum design speed will be 100 MPH. They will be replacing the M-1 fleet (the oldest are first to go), while the M-3s (younger in age than the M-1) will undergo an overhaul and are expected to last longer on the road.
Are the LIRR MUs 10'6" loading or at the belt?
Mark
>>I heard on the NEWS12 Cablevision program that the LIRR is soon to be finally replacing the aging M1/M3 fleet this year.<<
Not that soon! The first trainset must undergo testing that will ensure the rest of the M-7 fleet can be built and delivered. The M-7s will not replace the M-3s, they're still kinda new.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newsday posted some pixs on their site a few weeks ago.
I was looking at a track map and I noticed that after Euclid on the A, the four tracks seem to keep going, as the in use tracks curve toward Grant. Was the original intent for the line to also continue straight. Where was it supposed to go after Euclid, if anyplace?
There are two lay up track and two yard leads witch are also used for C train relays.
Robert
the tunnel leads to 78th street, as part of the IND Second System the line was to continue east along 120th Avenue to Springfield Gardens & Rosedale. In the Early 1950's The line was Connected to the Fulton Street BMT East Of Euclid Avenue Station And a Station Was Constructed At Grant Avenue.
Are the bellmouths still intact so that, one day, if possible, an extension could be built from that point on?
AFAIK Onthe A line after Euclid, The 2 tracks going to the yard go down and off. The 2 tracks to Grant go up and out. The 4 tracks keep going. After that comes the bumper blocks, the yard leads, the proposed station at 76 Street (based on what is seen on the board at Euclid Tower) and the end of the tunnel. Maybe the tunnel keeps going. It says on the board that the next tower is Cross Bay.
Wow I never knew that. There seems to be so many of these "planned extentions" built into the system, especially the IND.
I would suggest that you visit Joe Korman's site, he has a whole section devoted to the "IND Second System" which never got built.
You will find it fascinating.
http://www.thejoekorner.com
The IND Second System page on this website isn't too shabby either. Much of it was pointless, but some of the lines should've been built.
Don't forget the History of the Independent also on this site, where I talk about the 1929, 1939, 1950s and 1968 plans, too.
--Mark
Well it's good to know that if and when those extensions are put into use, the El connection to Fulton will remain. That would give a nice mix of service, if and when it comes.
From what you're saying, the trackways continue passt the bumper blocks.Is that proposed station at 76th Street partly constructed, or was there just simply space allocated for the constrution of a station? It also seems strange (at least to me) for there to be a tower marked at Cross Bay when the line was never built that far to begin with.
At 76 St, I figure there is probably a shell. Just like the proposed upper level station at Utica/Fulton. If it would be 76/Pitkin or 76/Conduit I don't know. The contro; board at Euclid Tower does have in the lower right hand corner some black tape that has been peeled back and it shows a 76 St Station. With 2 yard leads that according to a 1968 TA phonebook I have do exist.
Maybe in 1948 when the station opened Maybe they had plans about extending the line. Then again maybe they might have planned or expected to connect the line with the BMT Fulton El in Queens.
A tell-tale sign for a partly constructed station would be if there were ventalilation gratings on the sidewalk in that area. As for the yards leads, they must be tracks A7 and A8 according to Peter Dougherty's track book that curve off of the Pitkin main yard leads towards the east but are nothing more than stubs. And as for the line being extended, the Fulton IND was originally supposed to go 229th Street eigher in Cambria Heights or Laurelton/Rosedale. What street the tunnel was to take to get there is not clear but probably either Linden Blvd or Rockaway Blvd. Also it was supposed to tie in the proposed 120th Avenue el of the IND second system.
that future extension SHOULD have gone to JFK Airport instead of this half assed airlink. The trackage which ends outside of Euclid Avenue could possibly have been linked with some additinal stops for the neighborhoods it runs thru to the JFK.
Once upon a time there was a stub that ran north from Van Wyck Blvd. It didn't go far after it left the station. It's hard to say these days since it was built in the 1930's But it could have gone to Anderson Airport. (Which is now known as JFK)
I thought the old name was Idelwild.
That's Idlewild, and yes, that is the former name of JFK.
I believe it was Idelwild from 1948-64, when it was renamed after the Kennedy assassination.
Construction began in April 1942, when the City of New York contracted for the placing of hydraulic fill over the marshy tidelands on the site of Idlewild Golf Course.
First commercial flights began on July 1, 1948. The airport was formally dedicated as New York International Airport on July 31, 1948. It was rededicated on December 24, 1963, as John F. Kennedy International Airport, following action of the Mayor and Council of the City of New York and a resolution of the Commissioners of the Port Authority.
I have 2 maps on NYC. A 1928 sheet map and a 1943 5 boro atlas. It seems strange to look at them and the land is there but there is no airport!
so, was it ever named anderson airport?
When it first opened up. Before NYC had thoughts about making it a large airport.
Anderson was the original name for thee airport that grew there.
That's the Van Wyck Stub. It now leads to the Archer Ave. line.
Until the Fulton IND gets an additional connection into Manhattan, extensions of any sort seem improbable, and even less probable would be a whole new line.
Would that be related to the rumored 'Ghost station' of 76th Street on the A line.
Story goes that there was a subway station built -- and later cinderblocked over (sometime in the 50's) that would be around that area. You might have heard about this from previous posts from about last year or so.
BMTman
I'm not sure about that, but didn't they have to build a station from Euclid Avenue to connect the A with the old Fulton line as it expanded to Rockaway in 1956? I do know that the A terminated at Euclid when I was a kid and that train did not connect with the Fulton line.
That would be Grant Ave.
Yes, last June, we had a whole thread going about this rumored station.
One of the first Hammond subway maps, from about 1938, showed the Fulton St. IND Subway continuing past East New York all the way to Springfield Gardens. The map showed it cutting thru a corner of Aqueduct Park. Later editions of this map show a white stripe thru the green park land where the ink for the future subway line was removed from the printing plate. A footnote said it would open in 1943. [Another footnote said that the 6th Ave. IND subway was not yet open, and that while the 6th Ave. El wasn't shown on the map, it would run untill the subway opened.
I'd love to see a pic of that map!
I would like to see it too!
Yup, the line was supposed to continue along Pitkin. Some say there's a complete station at 78th St/Pitkin, but nobody knows for sure.
One such plan called for the Fulton Street line to be extended to 229th Street in the vicinity of Rosedale or Cambria Heights
Would the line gone east on Pitkin or on Conduit?
I'm not sure. I think it would be either Linden blvd. or Rockaway Blvd. though Conduit Avenue is also a possibility. The book read this from, wasn't clear on this. It was Fischler's "the subway".
How do they R143 get to ENY from 207 St? I am assuming the fly down 8th Ave to the 6th Ave tracks and then go onto the KK tracks.
Straight down the A would make the most sense.
That would make the most sense if there were a connection from the Fulton STreet Subway to East New York Yard -- which there isn't.
David
Then the A line would have three yards.
You know,I have always said that.... there are bell mouths for such a line east of ENY station,for direct Jamaica to Down town Brooklyn service.... now all we need is for some one other than US to have that glorious vision also....
Then whatta they do, carry them up the stairs?
No, silly, the escalator!
If the TA was smart they would build a one track connection from the Fulton Street Line to the BMT Eastern Division. This will enable the cars to get to Coney Island alot faster.
8115 is on the way down Broadway in Yonkers to 207 Yard.
The Weeks Crane is back.
Bye Bye Birdies, Hello replacements.
We knew that had to happen.....
-Stef
8115 is a 143 unit, yes?
That would make this the 13th MU.
Keep it going, Keep it going, going, gone. Do it FAST!!! OUR C.I. pick is coming up on the 17th and we don't want CME/CMA jobs!!! Just had the first break in weeks out of 180th Street subs. CIs do everything, even catch rats in the car desk office. CI Peter
Which cities in Europe have elevated rapid transit lines outside of Berlin, Hamburg, and Paris?
Certain parts of London's Underground is at open cut or above ground on elevated tracks.
Is any part of Moscow's Metro above ground - does anybody know?
Not sure if they have elevated lines, but yes, some of Moscow's system IS outdoor.
Wien, Vienna Austria, has their U6 Stadtbahn, which runs along the west side of the city along the Gürtel for about half of its lengeth. It was designed by Otto Wagner and opened in 1898.
You can study a fairly comprehensive Website devoted to the Wien Subway by Horst Prillinger.
Find it here http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~prillih3/metro/ which has an English version.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
Amsterdam has at least one line that starts off at Central Station and after several stops underground - runs elevated and terminates at an elevated station.
I like the metaphor of riding high in Amsterdam...
Mark
Groovy, man! Let me tell you a little about Amsterdam!
Uhhhh .... damn it, I forgot!
Wait - what are we, like, talking about again?
;-)
It depends what you mean by an el. If an el runs along a street, above the street on a steel structure, then we don't have them in London. Reason: the streets aren't wide enough! But lots of the London Underground is above ground, and quite a bit is well above street level, giving good views. Some on embankments, some on brick viaducts. I recommend the Hammersmith and City line between Hammersmith and Ladbroke Grove -- a nice bird's-eye view of Shepherds Bush Market which runs through the viaduct arches under the line, then a close approach to the BBC TV Centre, and all of it largely unknown to tourists and used by a lot of local people who don't even carry on into central London at all.
Has any kid tried scratching their stupid names on the Windows of the R142 or R143 yet.
Yes there are few scratch not alot on R142/142A.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Opeartion Planning
At least we can replace the mylar glass films...so far. CI Peter
Yes, there are some window scratches....but they'll disappear fast cuz the TA just peels off the scratch protector and puts on a new one. -Nick
Some idiot etched something in a seat already.
I saw some scratches on the stainless steel door post on an R-142 last week. Nothing elborate, just a few scratches.
Bill "Newkirk"
Special sanding pads do the work off a stick. CI Peter
>>Special sanding pads do the work off a stick. CI <<
How about razor stubble from the great unshaved ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I haven't seen any scratchitti yet, but it occurred to me that the advertisement-less walls of the Bombardier R142s might be inviting as a gleaming, white canvas for some vandals with a black magic marker. I wonder why they haven't yet struck. (I hope I just didn't give somebody ideas.) The lack of ads (only maps are on the walls) and/or artwork on the back of the rollsign (like the Kawasakis) makes the lighting appear too harsh for my taste. It's like riding in a refrigerator. Of course, that illusion may be handy come summer!
They have struck. I was on a 2 train a few weeks ago with an awful smudge on the blank wall, clearly a failed attempt at removal of marker grafitti.
Incidentally, I would like to see that space filled with more maps. There are only two maps per car, and on the R-142(A) they're near the ends.
The latest attack uses xylene based paint markers. Sorta permanent. CI Peter
I've seen some scratchitti on the R-142s already.
#3 West End Jeff
I read a story on mlb.com that WCBS Newsradio 88 will be broadcasting all Yankees games this season instead of WABC, becuase WCBS-TV (Chan. 2) will be broadcasting some games as well, while the Yankee Entertainment and Sports Network (Y.E.S.) televises most of the games. I don't know how listeners will feel about wanting news and hearing a game, they'll have to turn to 1010 WINS or something. Also, will WCBS interrupt a game for major breaking news? -Nick
It's not that unique -- WINS broadcast the Yankees in the late 1970s, before WABC got the contract. And since Viacom/CBS/Infinity owns both WCBS and WINS, anyone wanting to listen to news while the Yanks are on will probably still be tuning into a Infinity station (though WINS' suburban signal isn't anywhere near as strong as WCBS).
As for breaking news, I'm sure if something big does happen during a game, they will interrupt the game for bulletins, though depending on how big a story it is, after a while they'll probably tell you to tune to WINS or watch Ch. 2 for further information and go back to the Yanks game.
WTOP (All news-Washington DC) broadcasted the O's up to 2000. The only thing I did not like about the game is that I needed my traffic report (why am I stuck here on I 95, where is the delay, and how much longer before it will be clear).
Hey Phil,
If the Expos come to town, WTOP is going to consider running their games w/ a format that will allow them to do both baseball and news at the same time. I don't like the O's on 980 since I need weather when I wake up but WTEM doesn't do that but I want to listen to the game when I go to bed.
There's a certian irony in Washington D.C. being the nation's capital and the largest matropolitan area on the East Coast without a decent 50,000 watt AM station, which is a big downside for sports broadcasts.
WTOP's location at 1500 on the dial meant even with its power it's spotty outside the district (which is why they have two sister stations at 107.7 FM and 820 AM in the area), WTEM also tends to fade quickly, as does its sister station, WTNT at 570 AM. And of all the major ABC radio stations across the country, WMAL has the worst signal, even though it's probably better than all the others above (WABC, WLS-Chicago, WJR-Detroit, WBAP-Dallas/Ft. Worth and KGO-San Francisco blast all over their regions, and even the not-so-hot single of KABC in Los Angeles travels a little further than WMAL's).
I get WTOP quite well in NE PA and various other places.
It's got a 50,000 watt signal, but the higher on the AM dial the poorer the uniform reception is. So you may be able to get `TOP in Pennslyvania, but the station recently had to start up a simulcast on 820 AM in Fredrick, Md., because its signal is spotty at the north end of I-270, and the 107.7 simulcast for Virginia has been going on for about a decade now.
WCBS broadcasts at the same power as WTOP, but since it's lower down on the dial and has a better antenna location (near salt water), CBS/Infinity doesn't have to worry about having to do any simulcasting on suburban stations.
At least I can pick up WCBS-AM at night down here.
Phil Hom
Northern Virginia - Wash DC.
107.7 isn't that old and the first simulcast was on 94.3. They swapped to get a better signal. Also, 820 is horrible. I was on 70 just outside Fredrick and couldn't hear anything.
WTOP has an internet simulcast (http://www.wtopnews.com) ... I have no problem getting it here in NY :)
--Mark
Denver's 850 KOA is known as the 50,000-watt blowtorch of the Rocky Mountain West. It can be picked up from far away at night.
I've picked up Chicago's WGN from Connecticut.
There are several stations around the country -- mostly owned now by Clear Channel, ABC or CBS/Infinity -- that blast all across the U.S. at night. WBBM in Chicago, KFI in Los Angeles and WOAI in San Antonio are three of the others that can be heard sometimes more than 1,000 miles from their transmitters (Southern Illinois and Western Kentucky at night are two great places for distance listening, since pretty much every 50,000 watt clear channel station from Boston to Denver can reach there).
We went through this a few years ago, but I'll repeat it again for newcomers. Clear channel AM stations (not to be confused with those owned by Clear Channel Communications, by the way) were established during WWII for the purpose of informing the public about national emergencies. If the Emergency Broadcast System (EBS) was activated, you would have been informed where to tune in your local area for official information; non-clear channel stations were to sign off the air. Clear channel stations are positioned on the dial where the combination of their frequency and tower location gives them the greatest range, to serve the greatest number of people at these times. Since the sky wave (the atmospheric phenomenon that allows AM signals to go great distances) works best at night, many stations on other frequencies are "daytime only" and must sign off or lower their power at night. That's why stations such as WWL (New Orleans) are famous for their all-night shows targeted at long-haul truckers. WBZ here in Boston advertises they can be heard in 38 states at night.
The EBS became another relic of the cold war; then the Emergency Alert System replaced the EBS in 1994.
The FCC's Web site will give you a list of all clear, regional, and local AM frequencies, and the stations broadcasting on them.
For what it's worth, Clear Channel got its name from its first big purchase, WOAI in San Antonio, which IIRC at 1200 is the highest clear channel AM station on the dial (I believe WLW-AM 600 in Cincinnati is the lowest).
Correction: WLW is at 700 (once the only 700 in the USA until 20 years age.
Correction II: Below WLW is WMAQ 670 in Chicago, WNBC 66, WMC 650 Memphis. I may be wrong on the call letters for the memphis station.
Clear channel in North America is regulated by international treaty.
That is why all frequencies can not be clear channel in the USA.
At 800 there is clear channel for CKLW Windsor,Ont., XEROK Juarez, MX and Radio Netherlands Antilles in the caribean at 500Kw!
I've got a buzz on clear channels...just give me a sked on eighty meters. CI Peter
I've got a buzz on clear channels...just give me a sked on eighty meters.
Heh. Glad to see I'm not the only ham here on SubTalk! I'd love to start a SubTalk net on 75 or 20 if there are more hams than just us on board! Whaddya Say?
73 de VE3THX /W2
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Sometimes I feel I sing my hymns alone. Sometimes I wonder who reads my posts beyond the TA and the vendors. Sometimes I wonder if something is wrong with me and I'm alone. Sometimes I wonder if what I have learned will ever be put to use. What I do know is that I GOTTA GET NEW RADIO BEYOND MY VINTAGE CIRCA 1974 YAESU AND ATLAS RADIO. Like to know if TA has HF net too!!!!! Car Inspector Peter, Extra Class WB2SGT from 239th Barn, NYC MTA CED and I'm not alone anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless.
What I do know is that I GOTTA GET NEW RADIO BEYOND MY VINTAGE CIRCA 1974 YAESU AND ATLAS RADIO. Like to know if TA has HF net too!!!!! Car Inspector Peter, Extra Class WB2SGT from 239th Barn, NYC MTA CED and I'm not alone anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless.
What?? Didn't you hear that the new radio system specs are in? They're putting old FT-101E's in the cabs and will run the whole damn railroad on 11 Meters! They're claiming better received audio quality than they have now with less QRM, and more familiar operational characteristics for the operators, HI. Not just that, but it would allow seemless intermodal operation between the TA and the fleets of gypsy cabs and jitneys--a win-win situation!
For Yard moves, they're going to buy some surplus backpack equipment from the Aberjumbian army reserve and Boy Scout troop.
You're listening to Radio Free D-train!
Not too far removed from reality, though, the Toronto subway's comms have been using "radios" at 72 kHz superimposed over the third rail since 1954. I think they're moving up to 860 MHz digital radios in the future, but to my knowledge, the old inductive-coupled rigs are still ruling the rails up North!
73 de VE3THX /W2
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
WB2SGTs machine shop has whipped up a really neat bootleg brake handle from a cut key. Also made a slim reverser from a 3/4 machine tool wrench. Now yu tell me I gotta build a coil winding lathe for 72 Kc when my last project, a hand held screwdriver is in limbo??? I'm Extra Class...FT 101 B with FL2100B. I had given up on my ten meter Uniden. Yesterday, I had the pleasure of calling up the 239 tower on a R142 radio. Didn't have the heart to call 'radio repair to tower.' My crew couldn't see the hidden tears. By the way, I'm exTMC/TMC alumnus as in CHU and WWV. Remember Hammond??? The internet has me all over the place but SubTalk connects friends everyday. Ck 73 de WB2SGT CI Peter.
Forgot one point: I worked hard to pay for and finish V7 course at RCA Institutes and the money i saved went for that FT-101b. The first thing i did when i got home was to cut the brown wire. CI Peter
Clear channel stations are positioned on the dial where the combination of their frequency and tower location gives them the greatest range, to serve the greatest number of people at these times. Since the sky wave (the atmospheric phenomenon that allows AM signals to go great distances) works best at night, many stations on other frequencies are "daytime only" and must sign off or lower their power at night.
Actually, what happens is the D-layer of the ionosphere gets charged up during the day and essentially keeps low-frequency and medium frequency signals from reaching upper more refractive regions of the atmosphere. When sunlight is gone, the D-layer dissipates and you get that wonderful sky-wave propagation on the low bands.
What really cheeses me off about the old former "clear channels" (I think they're now called Class 1-A but I'm not positive) is that sometimes they are utterly wasted on pittiful broadcasters in podunk markets while other markets do without. DC is a prime example of a market without a good low-end 50kW Clear.
On the other hand, I can give you a handful of non-directional day and night 50kW locals that have no business being where they are. The most prominent ones that come to mind are WGY Schenectady, NY on 810, and WHAM in Rochester, NY on 1180.
What's even worse is that in the last two decades, the Canadian regulators have basically told the US to go get stuffed and have put local stations to compete with some of these wonderful US 1-As. For example, 820 WBAP is blocked by a country station outside of Toronto whose call I now forget. A similar re-assignment of a 1-A to a Canadian happened in the Montreal area as well. And not just that, either...the Canadian Broadcorping Castration shut down most of their AM TX's and moved everything up to FM, and a lot of the powerhouse CBC assignments are now in use by abhorant little nothing broadcasters in Toronto, Montreal and other places (listen to 740 and 940--if you can--and see what I mean.
I grew up with the sounds of WCBS, KMOX, WLW, WRVA, WSB and others from my bedroom in Montreal, and I guess I'll always have a soft spot for these RF monsters. That's why it pains me so much to see these frequencies wasted. Hell, I remember visiting the TX sites for some of the biggies, including WLW 700. Nothing like seeing 17 KV on the plate!
Finally, to keep this thread at least local to NY (although not transit related in the slightest), Can *ANYBODY* tell me whose transmitter is located on Metropolitan Ave. in Queens--about 2 miles from me--comprising of a four tower array (three in-line, and one offset). I assume it's something high-up due to the limited height of the sticks. I'm also curious as to the location of WABC's array and whether they're onmi or directional day/night. I lose them in Queens, especially the lower-level of the 59th St. bridge and near QP. Gotta wonder where they are!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
It'll be interesting to see if satellite radio ever really takes off. Best Buy is selling systems starting at $250 or so, installation presumably extra, and subscriptions are about $20 per month. If I drove longer distances on a regular basis, I'd seriously consider satellite radio. Other than listening to the news (on WCBS880, of course), I've basically given up on broadcast radio - there are so many commercials it's completely intolerable.
I've basically given up on broadcast radio - there are so many commercials it's completely intolerable.
The commercials are bad enough, and I could tolerate them if there was real DIVERSITY in what I listened to. These clusters of mega-broadcasters make we want to projectile vomit. As a die-hard conservative, I'm loathe to see government step in and regulate things, but damn it, the FCC's relaxation of ownership limitations in a given market has destroyed radio broadcasting. Just TRY and find something that doesn't sound like the soundtrack to Friends out there, or some banal, inoffensive middle of the road shlock. When PDs and cluster owners WAKE THE HELL UP and realize that there is a HUGE and under-served market of 30 and 40-somethings out here that want diverse programming and enjoy risk taking, then maybe we'll have radio start to live and breathe again.
Jeez, when was the last time Dr. Demento was heard on a NY-area radio station? I'd give my left nut to get him on broadcast here instead of a 'Net feed!
At least talk radio offers a glimmer of thought here and there, but its appeal is losing out as well what with all the Rush wannabees springing up like weeds. What's really pissed in my cornflakes in the local talk marketplace is how WABC's bills are paid by about 2 or 3 slimeballs hawking snake oil herbal remedies to gullible aging seniors. I can't listen to these sleazy ads--or the programs they support--for more than a quarter-hour segment or two.
I guess that's why my dial in the drive times is often set squarely to 146.85, 154.43 or 161.505!
73 de VE3THX /W2
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
GREASEMAN LIVES IN OUR HEARTS even if he was so dirty. I used to scan the X band. On my old job working late and excessive hours, i heard 'WAR, WAR, this is WAR.' It was the portamobile unit being ck'd out for Gulf War.....staffed by volunteer hams. I'm still nutz....bang CQ on the sides of Redbirds. DAYYYTONNN FOREVER.
Peter and Peter, some of us remember some seriously wierd clear channels WKBW R%R from Buffalo!, WLAC, serious blues from Nashville, In my high school years (late fifties early sixties)the glory of these and others was a different musical vine combined with mostly local commercials--you weren't going to hear those any other hours of the day and never would see the advertiser. At this point, my radio only tunes to noncommercial stations where at least the music or talk choices are relatively local. Bring back the five station rule!!!
Bring back Quaker Oatmeal box radios. Volksrundfunkfanger too. CI Peter
The solution to the problem of banality in modern radio is to allow more radio stations and to make it easier to start a radio station.
More government regulation is NEVER the answer.
WABC transmitter is in Lodi, NJ surrounded by salt marsh.
Finally, to keep this thread at least local to NY (although not transit related in the slightest), Can *ANYBODY* tell me whose transmitter is located on Metropolitan Ave. in Queens--about 2 miles from me--comprising of a four tower array (three in-line, and one offset). I assume it's something high-up due to the limited height of the sticks. I'm also curious as to the location of WABC's array and whether they're onmi or directional day/night. I lose them in Queens, especially the lower-level of the 59th St. bridge and near QP. Gotta wonder where they are!
As mentioned, WJZ, the local NBC Blue affiliate is in Lodi. The transmitters on Metro Avenue are WQEW-1560 (Radio Disney).
The other towers on Metropolitan Avenue with the tomatoe/pot patch belong to the FAA. CI Peter
Next time go to www.radiostation.com
peter - i have several questions that have always baffled me and which you may know the answers to.
is the better am radio reception in the winter somehow related to the colder temperatures shrinking something to the ionosphere?
also, dallas has wfaa and pittsburgh has k???. these violate the mississippi river rule. any idea why?
also, in the sixties and maybe later, wfaa would switch frequencies with a sister station at dawn and dusk. one transmitter was at 50000 watts and the other, considerably less.
thanks
I know that KDKA predates the formal standardization of the K/W Mississippi rule.
I do have a question about the Mississippi rule: What do they do in St. Louis/East St. Louis or Minneapolis/St. Paul? And is New Orleans K or W? It's in a state that's mostly west of the Mississippi, but is on its left bank (which is north there), the W side.
Stations along the Missisippi generally take their cues from which sid e of the river they're on -- St. Louis is mostly Ks and Memphis is mostly Ws, though in New Orleans there are long time stations the WWL that defy the trend, and Minneapolis-St. Paul stations pretty much were determined by which city the FCC decided was the designated hometown back in the 1930s (that rule has been completely relaxed nowadays; in Dallas-Fort Worth KRLD was assigned to Dallas and WBAP was assigned to Fort Worth, but both stations' studios are now about five blocks apart from each other in Arlington).
BTW -- There's actually an AM station with a `W' call letter west of the Mississippi that's in the new 1610-1700 Kc band. WROW in College Station, Tx., moved up to 1620 AM about two years ago to get a wider coverage area, since there are still few other stations above 1600 on the AM dial to cause interference.
WFAA in Dallas is no longer a redio station, though its still the call letters for the ABC affiliate down there. WBAP and WRR-FM are the two Dallas-Fort Worth stations that violate the K and W rule.
Just about every station that does so -- like WHO and WOW west of the Mississipi and KYW and KOV to the east -- all were started up before 1923, when the government started assigning call letters based on the Mississippi divide. That's also the time they started demanding all stations have four call letters instead of three, so its rare when one of those stations changes call signs (WHN being one of the few exceptions).
Don't forget nearby KYW AM-1060 Philadelphia
There is also a good explanation of the WABC superb nighttime signal on the WABC Musicradio 77 website. It explains the transmitter location and the advantage of the 770 kh frequency.
It is at http://musicradio.com
Daytime I can receive WABC from Newport, RI down to Wilmington, DE and west to Harrisburg,PA with a strong signal in Philadelphia.
Nights: New Brunswick down to Florida then the signal bounces off of Cuba and may be received in Western Africa. To the west, Des Moines, Iowa and down in souther Mississippi.
Unfortunately, not here in Texas. No NYC stations in Texas ever.
Yeh, I can get KOA Denver really well and WGN Chicago also is within range here in Austin, Texas.
I once got WINS as far as the outskirts of Philadelphia, PA, but WCBS is usually stronger. I have picked up WTOP at my home in Hastings-on-Hudson in good conditions. Hell, one time I picked up a station from North Carolina a few years ago from my home in Hastings-on-Hudson.
#3 West End Jeff
DXing is fun. If you get the chance, go to Cape Hattaras, NC and you will pick up many NYC AM stations in the daytime. Also a few from Philadelphia.
Here in Austin, Texas, I listen to 84 WHAS Louisville and 700 WLW Cincinnatti at night often.
QSL BC band dxing. Ocracoke Island is a super DX location. No terrestrial noise, no obstructions and the best ground you can whip up (the Atlantic Ocean.) The island is part of the Cape Hattaras National Seashore and requires a free (YES FREEEEEEE) fourty minute ferry trip. CI Peter, WB2SGT
It must be quite interesting to DX. BTW what does DX mean.
#3 West End Jeff
Dog Xray. CQ CQ CQ DX DX DX Dog Xray de WB2SGT QRZ.
That is rather interesting.
#3 West End Jeff
Would you like some 'Dog Xray' from the Animal Medical Center??? Sometimes my friend, I HAVE TO GENERATE A LAUGH to make a day bright even if it is only for myself. Sometimes it takes a lot of time for just one SubTalker to recognize my 'off the wall' postings and my background. I've gotten some truly wonderful emails from my posts that lifted my sorry soul on bad days. You missed a post. DX refers to distant radio stations. CI Peter
Peter, I don't think Jeff speaks Ham
So true but once in a while the errant email makes it all worthwhile. CQ CQ de 6L6GB QRZ anyone??? CI Peter, maker of HAMM
Of course I would like some "Dog Xray" from the nearby animal center, NOT! Oh well I missed a post, so be it.
#3 West End Jeff
Interesting,
Off topic,
and Off thread title.
Well, one for three.
rrr ck 73 tnx for the contact gud luk in the contest pse qsl 73 de wb2sgt and hf forever. That's real radio with 572Bs lighting up a dark room on a gloomy night. TA has some real people wanting to do real work and I'm lucky to be one of them. It's not off topic...just gimme a sked and I'll blast you with a kilowatt of AM on eighty meters. CI Peter
***YEE-HAH*** YAY-EMM ***R*E*A*L***R*A*D*I*O***
I have my own 50,000 watt AM transmitter, thank you very much. It's at 880 kc, on High Island (off City Island), and too far from the subway!
But only I can pull my plug at will and my signal goes a lot farther with a lot less power. So there!!! CI Peter
Peter, my buddy W2ICQ is on 3885 BE THERE OR BE ARRL
At least he's not of the 3950 crowd.
GET ON THE AIR NOW -- 3885
Mr. Blair........it is snowing like all Hell right now and I have just warmed up my Yaesu FT-101B and FL-2100B linear after a decade of silence. The loft in my solid cedar house in New Jersey overlooking the Delaware Water Gap stinks from RF cooking up the dust, the 1 KW resistive load hooked up through 50' of RG58 patch is cooking and heating me up at 2100 VDC 500 mAmps with a BW/Waters compressor preamp. The bandswitches on my station are arcing all over the place....what i need to do right now is load up my Mossberg 500ATP riot gun with magnum buckshot for bear protection and run my Collins tape dipole out in the front four acres. IF I survive the bears, the cold and the junk I've left out in the dark.....just one question??? East/West or North/South???? CI Peter
20 minutes and all set......but Collins tape dipole hasn't seen use since VietNam and my hand was just sliced open. Just like the job...i do well under fire. Thankyou my friend for the impetus tonight. I'm watching 'Legend of the Rangers' and will try during the commercials. The ground is frozen and I am unable to hammer fibreglass stakes to support the antenna....I don't expect to climb trees right now to secure the nylon ropes. The radio is sqaulking as loud as it did twenty five years ago except for the little scratchy pot noise. I desperatly need help from the Minbari. CI Peter
Point it towards Syracuse
I'm trying...got to figure out how to balance out the dipole in bad weather...mebbe a KW will burn ice. We are Rangers...we don't allow anyone to cross the bridge. We live for the one...we die for the one...and we don't die stupid. The tape dipole sliced my right hand open and the cold doesn't allow the bleeding to stop. Twenty six years ago I climbed a radar mast on an oil tanker to provide emergency communications. I know this is a hobby but I want to do this...I also need the rest and relaxation from SciFi TV. Snow and ice is building...do 8AM Church service. A cruiser from Minbar with laser cannnons could make my day. CI Peter
DX- I do not know. I looked through some of my books and refreshed my memory about lA clear channel stations in the 60kh frequencies.
680 KNBR San Francisco
640 KFI Los Angeles call letters for 650 are WSM Nashville.
It seems that 640 KFI is the lowest frequency clear channel station.
There is another term, "QSL". No one knows what that stands for. A QSL card is sent to a listener who writes to a far off radio station giving them a reception report. (AM only) QSL cards have been around for 80 years.
DX- I do not know. I looked through some of my books and refreshed my memory about lA clear channel stations in the 60kh frequencies.
DX means Distant, and refers to the practice of receiving faraway radio transmissions. It's commonly used in the amateur radio world, but you can DX with anything - like "vanilla" AM. Amateur DXing is something of a sport.
There is another term, "QSL". No one knows what that stands for. A QSL card is sent to a listener who writes to a far off radio station giving them a reception report. (AM only) QSL cards have been around for 80 years.
Another term popular in the amateur world - Q-codes are "radio shorthand" for certain phrases or questions, and QSL is "acknowledge." Amateur operators exchange QSL cards as a courtesy when making contact. I believe Q-codes (and other similar practices) originated because it's quicker to key off a few letters than it is to key an entire sentence in Morse code.
I read up on it a long time ago, but soon lost interest and never took the test.
Mark
CQ CQ DX de WB2SGT QRZ and QSL.
CQ: general call for any answer
DX: any distant (usually foreign) station
QRZ: an abbreviation used for 'who are you'
QSL: an abbreviation used for 'please send a written acknowledgement for the contact or reception
'Dog Xray': film of dead animal guts
73 de CI Peter, WB2SGT
There was an extensive thread on this topic on the New York Radio Message Board about two weeks ago. Use its search engine for yankees wcbs.
When someone on that board gets on to a transit topic, I refer them here :-)
By the way, many other CBS/Infinity "Newsradio" stations are not news 24 hours. Examples include WBZ Boston, KNX Los Angeles, and KCBS San Francisco.
Back on topic (marginally), KNX Los Angeles started doing Traffic and Weather Together every six minutes vs. ten minutes after one of the big earthquakes some years ago. And they still do.
many other CBS/Infinity "Newsradio" stations are not news 24 hours.
And I think 1010 WINS has picked up on this. They now say they're "New York's only 24-hour news station" or something like that. They also say more people listen to them than any other radio station in the nation. Wow.
Back on topic, sorta, their transit info can still be pretty lame.
I thought WBCS Radio never went 100% news. I seem to recall they carried Arthur Godfrey (or some other oldtime radio personality) as long as he could draw breath.
Also, don't they carry the audio feed from "60 minutes."
Kind of OT to this OT: There is some tradition to carrying shows on radio and TV both. When I was a kid there was a show "The Children's Hour," IIRC it ws carried on WNBC 660 radio and WNBT (Channel 4) television. There was a 5-minute radio newscast smack in the middle of the program (in those days, LOTS of radio stations carried hourly news) so on the TV show they put up some kind of graphic while they played the Horn & Hardart jingle "Less Work for Mother." Not the most thrilling five minutes of the "Golden Age of TV."
I thought WBCS Radio never went 100% news. I seem to recall they carried Arthur Godfrey (or some other oldtime radio personality) as long as he could draw breath.
Also, don't they carry the audio feed from "60 minutes"?
Kind of OT to this OT: There is some tradition to carrying shows on radio and TV both. When I was a kid there was a show "The Children's Hour," IIRC it ws carried on WNBC 660 radio and WNBT (Channel 4) television. There was a 5-minute radio newscast smack in the middle of the program (in those days, LOTS of radio stations carried hourly news) so on the TV show they put up some kind of graphic while they played the Horn & Hardart jingle "Less Work for Mother." Not the most thrilling five minutes of the "Golden Age of TV."
This explanation seems to make reasonable sense. Remember, while WINS and WCBS are co-owned (by Infinity Broadcasting, a Viacom company, operator of the CBS Radio Network), they still compete. And both bring in substantial revenue. Having different "products" is good positioning in the marketplace. Remember, GM is owns "competing" brands Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, GMC Truck, (and soon to go) Oldsmobile.
Back sort of on topic (in topic?)... I fully expect that Transit and Weather Together and news updates will be an integral part of Yankees baseball. It was when WCBS ran the Jets way-back-when.
CBS/Infinity is in the same position in Los Angeles they are in New York, owning KNX -- which still broadcasts old-time radio shows at night -- and also the other all-news station, KFWB.
BTW -- In Dallas, CBS/Infinity's KRLD just went all-news 24 hours a day on Monday, but will continue to be the flagship station for the Texas Rangers this season. Given their signings of Juan Gonzalez and Carl Everett and their continued lack of pitching, that should mean a lot of long stretches at night this spring and summer when the all-news station will be preoccupied with baseball (don't know if they're going to dump their 60-minute post-game call-in show this year due to the all-news format, but if not, that will mean no news for stretches of 4 1/2 to five hours every gameday).
KRLD Dallas- Still has "The Lost Tapes" on Saturday night 10-Midnight CST. The Lost Tapes hosted by George Gimarc is about obscure music, mostly rock and roll. He plays songs, takes calls and does not do any news at all.
Yesterday, the show was often interrupted by election returns for a mayoral election, but only for about five minutes at a time, three times an hour. Here in Texas, elections (except for President) are always on Saturday.
Yep, listening to it a couple of nights ago, I see they also still have their one-hour Internet show from 7-8 p.m. Monday through Friday, so CBS/Infinity's definition of a "24-hour-a-day all news station" is a little bit different in Dallas than it is in New York.
Thanks, Todd...I'll check out that link! -Nick
In the 1970's, CBS interrupted the news for one hour in the evening to present: CBS Radio Mystery Theatre, which I listened to all the time. E.G. Marshall emceed, and such actors as Fred Gwynne (TV's Herman Munster from the '60s) would provide character voices. Each show was a three act play, with Marshall doing a bit of commentary. Great stuff. Wish it were still with us.
This is not without precedent. WCBS aired Jets football and St Johns basketball games in the early thru mid 80s.
--Mark
Thats just what viacom wants. Viacom owns both 1010 wins and wcbs. ITs a win win for them
If I'm not mistaken, even WFAN is owned by Infinity--which is owned by CBS. (At least, that's what I-man always says) "WFAN, an Infinity Broadcasting Station"
Stuart, Rline86Man
WFAN is owned by Infinity, a Viacom business unit. CBS is no longer a "company," (all of its stock was bought out by Viacom) but a division of Infinity (Infinity also owns advertising properties, such as subway and bus station ad venues -- there! On topic!)
SO when I do my work on the R142s I should see the big nose of Howard Stern looking down 'sternly' upon me. The R142 instructor refers to the GFI outlet in the transverse cab as the 'Howard Stern radio outlet.' CI Peter
Viacom owns Paramount, which owns UPN. Does that mean that Viacom owns two TV networks (granted, oning UPN is like owning an illegal low-power radio station). Why does the FCC not frown upon this?
But when the ***A*W*E*S*O*M*E***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S***, the best team for all time, play the game that they have MASTERED, it is BIG MEWS. Fear the ***A*W*E*S*O*M*E***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S***!
I didn't read this entire thread, so I don't know if anyone gave this answer, but it makes sense for one of the 2 stations , either WCBS or WINS not to be full time news, becuase they are both owned by Infinity and as full time newsstations, they compete with each other. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. WCBS has also shed much of its high price talent in recent years, (Neil Busch comes to mind) and I would not be suprised if they eventually change the format of the entire station and WINS remains a full time news station to compete with Bloomberg.
Mark, go back to the very beginning of the thread. The key point:
Both stations make a lot of money for Viacom/Infinity Broadcasting. They are co-owned, but compete..... it's the American Way. Think GM -- Buick, Olds, Caddy, Chevvy, etc. Many corporate giants in many industries, such as food, energy, insurance, banking, etc. have co-owned competitors. It allows them to have scarf up more of the marketplace.
If you want to keep up on NYC radio, read the New York Radio Message Board -- you'll find a lot more there about radio there than here on SubTalk :-)
Did you know that 1010 WINS wasn't full power clear channel because schmucko owner of WRNJ 1000 Kc Hackettstown NJ bunny rabbit off the air by sundown claimed interference??? He got bookoo bucks changing frequency. CI Peter
Well, I talked with one of my radio friends about this. We agreed, that if they both make money then they will stay "as is".
That is the bottom line.
With this deal, you can say goodbye to a lot of 'free TV' Yankee Games. Ch 2 will only be broadcasting 20 or so, where FOX used to show 50. Add in FOX national coverage, and there will be approximately 30 Yankee games you can see on Free TV. It's going to look a lot like the Rangers, Knicks, Nets, Islanders, and Devils. What, no cable? Buy a ticket!
Note that Boston, Philadelphia, LA, and Chicago all show regular season hockey and basketball games on broadcast channels.
-Hank
But those cities don't have $teingrabber and all those mouths to feed. Maybe all that extra cash will pay for a stadium so WE don't have to.
Whats your favorite county?
Personally, I like the Bronx. Areas like Riverdale are nice and quiet.
Wake Hill offers a bird's eye view of the GW bridge and the NJ palisades. Area around co-op city reminds me of the country. Shore Parkway is like the NYS Route 6 of the Bronx. For those who don't know, that is a two lane highway that passes through Harriman Park in upstate NY. Nice and rural.
If you want rural Staten Island really has that feeling. Love the Hylan Blvd corridor from Great Kills to Tottenville. Feels really, really "out there".
As far as my favorite borough, Manhattan has it all no contest.
As far as most scenic borough, I'd say Staten Island.
I lived in Queens most of my 14 years in New York and it is the home of the Mets. But the Mets didn't exist in my New York days, and my fondest memories were of Brooklyn, so I go with that. Ebbets Field, Coney Island, the Brooklyn Bridge, Prospect Park, Grand Army Plaza, etc. Brooklyn was the place. It once also had remarkable schools, and was known as the borough of homes and churches. If you want me to get current and get off the nostalgia, then I go with Queens.
Well my favorite borough is Queens. Nice and quiet on the Southern side.
Personally I like Manhattan because, everything is there (foods theater shows, shoping plazas, you name it; and most of all, where I grew up. Second, I like Queens especially (Rockaway Park) because of beautiful beaches-where it is much cleaner than CI.
Born, raised and still live in the Bronx, so you can guess what my vote is for in regard to favorite.
If I wanted to vote for exciting then Manhattan has that vote.
I was born in Brooklyn, raised in Queens and have lived most of the last 30 years in Nassau. I can't decide :-)
Reminds me of a song of yesteryear---"They call me mr. inbetween." Well you have company. I'm torn between Queens and Brooklyn.
Nitpick time!
Shore Parkway is like the NYS Route 6 of the Bronx. For those who
don't know, that is a two lane highway that passes through Harriman Park in upstate NY. Nice and rural.
That's US Route 6. Otherwise, right you are!
:-) Andrew
Brooklyn. Nice mix of El's and Open Cuts.
We were talking about favorite SUBWAY Boro, yes?
I don't know if he means favorite subway borough Piasan. If he does, then it's no contest. BROOKLYN by a marathon. The Sea Beach, Brighton, Culver, West End. Good grief, what other borough has that to offer subway buffs. Manhattan? Come off it, those trains don't even see the light of day in that place.
Brooklyn Rules! No Question!
BMTman
You mean the New York-occupied City of Brooklyn.
Give that man a Ceegar!!! ;-D
Preferably an exploding one ;=)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi ya, Chris!
LOL!
Queens!
:-) Andrew
Favorite boro? Brighty of the Grand Canyon. I loved that story when I was a kid. :O)
Brooklyn...no contest. Staten Island is too remote and lacks rapid transit. Many areas of queens are fairly new and lack character. The bronx has more than its fair share of poverty, but has some nice areas. Unfortulately, many of the old, beautiful buildings were torched a few years back. And manhattan.....over-rated center of america. costs way too much to live there, and too many yuppies. Brooklyn is not only beautiful, but its cheaper than manhattan, more diverse, and has very good transit. what more could you possibly ask for?
Now that's logic ya can't mess with!
;-D
BMTman
I love them all. Every borough.
New York City is the capital of the world. If you don't believe me, check 34th Street on the East Side. It's right there.
I love them all. Every borough.
Corny as it sounds, I'm afraid I agree. Even Staten Island.
New York City is the capital of the world. If you don't believe me, check 34th Street on the East Side. It's right there.
What, NYU Medical Center?
That's what great about democracy Howard, we are all entitled to our opinions---but the Bronx?????? The area I saw around 235th to 242nd Street looked like a nice area to me. Perhaps I have to see more, but of those places I passed on the subway, yike, what a rathole. Brighton Express Bob and I rode the #5 last August all the way to its northern Bronx terminal. What a wasteland! And the #4 route isn't any better until you get to Moshalu Parkway, and that's the next to last stop. I do know the Bronx was once a nice place, but for some reason they have not been able to attract the yuppie types that bring restoration to neighborhoods, or any real businesses for that matter.
Indeed, the area from 235th to 242nd (Spuyten Duyvil) is a very pretty area. it sure beats the shit outta sunnyside.....except it lacks 10 minute service to midtown and those lovely redbirds grinding down Qns Blvd
Brooklyn -- Home of:
The BMT
Coney Island (birthplace of the Roller Coaster and the Hot Dog, home of: Nathans; Totonno's; Cyclone; WonderWheel etc.)
Brighton Beach and Boardwalk ("Getcha knishes and creamsicles!!")
Half of The Brooklyn Bridge (the less stuck-up half)
The Atlantic Avenue Tunnel
Egg creams
Best pizza
Need I go on?
Alan Glick
Half of The Brooklyn Bridge (the less stuck-up half)
Less than half, the entire East River is in Manhattan.
Also, where are you going to find an egg cream nowadays (no, seriously, I'd really like to know)?
Less than half, the entire East River is in Manhattan.
Those greedy so-and-sos
Also, where are you going to find an egg cream nowadays (no, seriously, I'd really like to know)?
Good question. I was engaging in fond memories.
Alan Glick
Brooklyn. Ya got a problem wit dat, buddy? :)
--Mark
No problem at all. Go for it.
If for some reason you were trying to contact me to no avail, that's because Me and the Wifey (aka The Better Half) took a little sabbatical to Nassau, Bahamas for 5 days. Here's what I had seen, and gone through:
Subways: The locals call it scuba diving. Otherwise, there are no train/trolley services whatsoever in Nassau which is the capital.
Buses: They have a bit of an odd way to supply bus services in Nassau. The buses are actually known as Jitneys (like in Atlantic City). Each bus has the line number, and the route painted on the mini-bus which seats about 24 people. The fare is either 75 cents or $1 depending on the route travelled (one Bahamian Dollar is on par with one US dollar, and American money is widely used, in fact more so than Bahamian money). Also, each single bus is independently owned and operated, so there is no version of a Transit Authority to oversee daily operations. I'm guessing that each route is bid on for say a 3 year period from the Bahamian government, and the highest bidder wins the right to operate his bus along the line. The busier route would fetch the higher bids. Bus service is reliable, however they stop running around 7 pm. What strikes me as being odd is that there are no public bus services serving Paradise Island which is heavily populated with tourists. This is so the tourists can pay premium prices for cabs and water ferries.
Costs: If you're going to The Bahamas, especially to Paradise Island/Atlantis, these words: BRING MONEY!!!! AND LOTS OF IT!!!! The Bahamas ain't cheap (I say that it's the most expensive place I've ever been to, kinda like Tokyo with palm trees). And Paradise Island is a total ripoff with the Atlantis taking the prize of worst ripoff ever. Take a look at these prices at the Atlantis in most of their restaurants and regular food stands (these are NOT room service prices, those are higher):
One Hot Dog w/fries: $8.50
Cheeseburger: $9.50
Bagel with Cream Cheese: $5.00
Regular Potato Knish: $6.50
12 oz. Steak: $38.00
12 oz. can of soda: $2.50
One alcoholic drink: $6.50
Breakfast special: Two eggs with bacon or sausage, homefries, coffee, toast & juice: $16.00
Also, a 15% service charge is automatically added to all food/drink bills in all Bahamian establishments (except grocery stores) regardless of whether service was awful/good.
To make things even worse, when you went to the local grocery stores and local restaurants within Paradise Island, they'd hit you just as hard in the wallet for their own food, maybe 10-15% cheaper than Atlantis prices. The people are extremely nice and hospitable, and the beaches are something to be seen. Never before was I able to see my feet while neck-deep in the ocean waters. And it's like that for their rivers too.
I'd reccommend that you see The Bahamas at least once, but just stay away from Paradise Island.
What strikes me as being odd is that there are no public bus services serving Paradise Island which is heavily populated with tourists. This is so the tourists can pay premium prices for cabs and water ferries.
That must be a hardship for the local people who work at the Paradise Island resorts. Unless maybe the hotels run employee shuttles.
They do have an employee shuttle bus that runs across the Bridge into Nassau where they can wait for a public bus. But could you imagine how it is during inclement weather? I'm quite sure that it's a bit rougher there given it's tropical climate.
>>Breakfast special: Two eggs with bacon or sausage, homefries, coffee, toast & juice: $16.00<<
And those ads on TV say "It's better in the Bahamas" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The same rules apply in Cancun, Q. Roo, MX and Acapulco. VERY expen$ive prices within the 'tourist' zone, but travel outside to the where the locals traverse, and prices drop big time. To grocery shop within the confines of the tourist area you pay 4-5X that in the non-toursit areas.
But the local bus system is keen, A/C, and frequency of less than 5every 5 minutes, for 2 pesos!
hey What happened to the 110A , 110B are they ever going to be back in service or there going to scrap them. Its a shame that they didnt use the 67' mesaurements for the R143 since those cars would be the biggest cars to run on Eastern Division equaling more capacity. I think the R160 cars should either be built to 75" to replace the older B division cars or 67" measure so they could run on all B division lines and have a good amount of capacity. Anyone agree with me. Feel Free to comment.
R160's if and when they are build will be 60". The TA is getting away from 75" becouse of there problem on the Easten Divisions, and 67" are no good bexouse the C/R has always has section that if more then 300" long and this is not allowed becouse of safty.
Robert
Has anyone been bright enough to suggest a single 67 ft car with a transverse cab smack-in-the-middle. Thus a four car set of (abba) a single car with a center transverse cab, then a four car set (abba)
Yes,I know that would be different!
Better yet, all b cars would have a center position that could be converted to a transverse cab from two opposing compartments with two seat each, with see through plexie-glass walls.
We wouldn't Selkirk Kevin blessing the Canarsie Forest or the Ridgewood Mountains or the Greenpoint Meadows. Heh Heh Heh!
I still pine for the return of the R/110b.
What was its new designation, R/133 or R/134?
avid
Why bother with a cab? Just put controls between two doors in the middle of the car, and let the conductor mingle with the crowds. Worked fine on the Standards. :-)
-- Ed Sachs
Security, or the pretense of security.
avid
Or why not do it a la pre-war IND units, let the poor schmuck straddle those two small platforms above the marker lights and pray he doesn't fall in between the cars.
I can only think what they went thru on rotten days on the Gowanus portion of the IND.....
Wasn't just the pre-war IND units that had the conductor perched between the cars -- that was the way it was from the time of gate cars. IRT Hi and Lo-Vs had them that way, and I think so did the MUDC (enclosed platform) El cars. On the BMT, El cars (gate cars, C and Q types) as well as the triplexes did this.
In NYCTA days, the R10, R12 and R14 cars also had the conductors between the cars.
-- Ed Sachs
Once the R-12s and R-14s went over to the mainlines, they never ran in solid trains again except for those used on the 3rd Ave. el. IIRC they were never placed in the middle of a train where the conductor was stationed specifically so that conductors would not be exposed to the elements. It made sense on the IRT, where most lines were elevated at least on part of a route. The R-10s OTOH always ran in solid trains except for a few rare instances during the smorgasbord train era of the late 60s and early 70s. Since most of the IND was underground, conductors didn't have to worry about the elements.
Ex-SQUEEZE me? Brighton line, snow, rain, sleet ... D train. 'nuff said. But I got better ... well, at least I wanna think so. Heh. Made ya DAMNED grateful though after the bridge when you went inside for a while.
The Brighton line is still a BMT line IMHO. I meant pre-Chrystie St. IND lines. The only outdoor portion, exclusing the World's Fair Railroad, is the Gowanus Canal crossing.
What about the "A" train to the Rockaways? If I'm not mistaken, the R10s provided exclusive service on the "A" and that went outdoors to the Rockaways, as well as Lefferts Blvd. in 1956, well before Chrystie St.
To much seperation on curves., all of the C/Rs would have to be from the NBA to reach!
avid
>>>. Worked fine on the Standards. :-) <<<
....and still works fine for PATH.
Peace,
ANDEE
and the LIRR/Metro-North :)
Stuart, RLine86Man and JamaicaStationMan
and the LIRR/Metro-North :)
Stuart, RLine86Man and JamaicaStationMan
Why not have articulated trains. I rode the new metior trains in paris over the summer. The articualted cars were bright and airy. I have some video of the paris metro if anyone is interested. I will be happy to post it if someone could enlighten me on how to do so or I was thinking of making it available through kazaa/morpheus file sharing software (software can be downloaded from www.musiccity.com). Call the file something like PAris Metro.
Any sugestions let me know.
We've talked about a return to the old BMT articulate trains in the past on the board. A 150-foot long multisectional with three sections of 50-feet apiece (roughly the same as the current IRT cars), which would allow there to be nine doors every 150 feet, or 36 doors in a 600-foot train. That's four more than the current 75-footers (although four less than a 10-car train of 60 footers), and the cars could go anywhere on the system, which of course the R-44, R-46 and R-68s can't.
When it comes time for the MTA to start thinking about replacing the R-44s, they should consider articulted cars.
If, as some here have suggested, new cars were equipped with video cameras and monitors, the C/R's cab could be anywhere (even, in theory, not on the train at all). There would be no need for transverse cabs; if the TA deems the extra crew space warranted, it could be provided by extending the cab back a bit.
Make the whole train articulated and the center car tranverse cab would not lok out of place at all. THe articulated trains on the paris metro were buetiful
I still don't get how 143s are being used on the Eastern Div platforms. I thought the platforms were shorter. Or are they only shorter for J/M/Z? But if they are, aren't there plans of 143s being used on the M?
I'd like the 160s to not be 75 ft. 60 ft seemed fine. Either way I'd like to just be able to cross through the cars.
A train of eight R-143s is the same length as a train of eight R-40s or R-42s.
The R-160 order is planned to be for 60-foot cars in four-car and five-car sets. The four-car sets are anticipated to go to the "Eastern Division," and it is not known where the five-car sets will go, although Queens Boulevard (E) has been mentioned.
David
Oh, ok. I thought the R143s were 75 footers. I completly forgot there were 10 cars on the Sea Beach express tracks.
Hello, a four car set + a five car setof r/143s = nine car set. That woud be just fine to capture the Flushing Line and send it thru the Sixtith St Tunnel and call it the "N". Sent The #7 to Asstoria.
The Flushing line needs the Volumn and additioal Doors.
avid.
Not a bad idea. Start working on the passengers and the local politicians...
David
But then the Flushing line would have to share space with the R, at the very least. It currently has exclusive use of the Steinway tubes.
What yard facilities will be available for your #7 Astoria Line?
Bad idea. There aren't enough N trains -- or N and W trains for that matter -- to run both a local and express service between Queensboro Plaza and Main Street during rush hours, unless you eliminate R service to Continental Ave. through the 60th Street tunnel.
So long as the Steinway tubes are the width they are and the passenger load on the Flushing line is what it is, the 7 train will continue to serve it because it can handle 30 TPH on a dedicated line. The best an N/W combo could do is 20 TPH and since both trains share trackage with the R, Q and even the M train at some point, that chances of problems on one of those lines causing problems east of QP increases.
J.Lee, You are correct, route the R thru the 63rd St tunnel.
The #7 goes to Asstoria, still using Steinway tubes.
The N and W to Main St.
Displaced r/40m r/42 from L go to N and W .
avid
Capacity per car is irrelevant. Capacity per train is the relevant question. Of course a 60-foot car has a lower capacity than a 75-foot car, but that's not the proper comparison since a train isn't made up of one car.
How often do passenger trains at 239th St Yard use the loop? Do work trains make the most use out of that track?
Most (if not all) wash trains pass through the 239th St car wash and down into the yard, with the T/O changing ends to take his train home.
-Stef
The J/Z Elevated structure goes over the roof of a building at the sharp curve onto Crescent Street.
1. Does anyone know what building this is? Is it a store?
2. Are there any other buildings/houses that have an elevated train above them?
Curious thought---which came first, the building or the El?
Tunnel Rat
The Brighton line passes over buildings on the east side of Coney Island Avenue just north of Brighton Beach Avenue.
The buildings under the el are shorter than the ones surrounding them. They obviously came later.
I worked in that area for a brief time in early 1999. I believe that the store is (or was) either a 99 cent store or a Supermarket (one is next the other).
Does anyone know if the maximum speed for a trainset can be specified so BVE won't let the train exceed it? I just hit 100MPH on the Manny B! It may be fun, but it's not very realistic. Perhaps audio samples of passengers screaming should be added for when you take the Franklin Shuttle at 65mph... :)
--
Ian Penovich
BVE is ALL kph, not mph.
And top speed is set in the train data file. 100 MPH on a downslope on the bridge is QUITE possible actually - if there's to be no survivors at the bottom. Word I've heard around the circuits is that the upcoming BVE 3 *will* include the ability to specify trippers, GT and POSSIBLY wheel detector capabilities making use of "local zone speeds" and "emergency trip" ...
If the speeds are set properly in the train file though, you should be getting a "speed limit exceeded" in red right below the geese-o-meter. Some route files are poorly done though ...
The speed a train can reach is set in the train.dat file. The speed limit it set by the author of a route in the .csv or .rw file.
Yeah, you got me ... should have been more specific ... the DAT file determines the TRAIN'S maximums whereas you can set the limits for portions of a route in the ROUTE files ... and of course since NYCTA modelling likes to have that LED speedo silliness, there's the "can only show KM/H and not MP/H there" ... Mackoy is supposedly taking care of this also in BVE3 from some Japanese friends who can read his chickenscratch. :)
He's still being pestered though by folks wanting that damned ammeter for their mighty diesels. The "blind or programmed trip" sounds like a nice feature though if it makes it into the new build ... I'm glad he doesn't feel pressured by MSTS ...
He's got microsft beat entirely on price, if nothing else.
-Robert King
Heh. I don't mind paying for something that's good. But Microsoft makes you pay to be incessantly tortured too ... that price is too f'ing high. Mackoy COULD charge for his thing, and I'd GLADLY pay. BVE is THAT good ...
Peh, Peh I say.... MSTS is obtainable for $29.95 in the City. Peh I say.
Had a friend drop off a hard disk with MSTS on it for a "review" of MSTS ... finally had a few hours to play with a "working copy" of it and all I can say is "GEEZ" ... I've never been so underwhelmed in my life.
First thing is the "tracks" ... flat as Mechanik original and as soul-less ... then there's the (ahem) "scenery" ... nice rendering of the grass, hilly shapes leap around like a dancing electrical wire hitting ground. Sound is a bland loop of ... well, sounds better on the "Outside the train" experience but pretty lame in the cab. No sway, no bounce, no "feel" like you're in a train. Even the "views" are lame in the "outside the train experience" and most unsettling is how SHORT the turnouts are.
No warnings of upcoming speed changes, no warnings of diverges, signals don't seem to change, speed limits didn't match the cab signalling (NE corridor, Nip lines or the freight), no indication of grade, and just nothing that matches actually operating a train. Pretty easy to crash though and tracks just seem to end abruptly dumping you on the ground.
Overall, MSTS just plain sucks. At least to me who is spoiled by BVE. MSTS is nothing more than a poor rendition of Mechanik with better shading of the ground textures. Handed back my friend's hard disk and said no thanks. I'll stick with BVE ... having been spared the aggravation of installing and setting it up, every bit of the MSTS experience (especially the cardboard cutout trainsets) just plain sucks.
Now as to your razzing, old buddy - clearly you haven't really seen BVE do its thing yet. WE FIX. :)
if we fix, then we wait fi dem fixing me mon
I can't wait. That'll make operating my R68A much more interesting. Hit a red? Don't try to recharge and get moving all at once. ::snickers::
Once I discovered that I could ignore red signals with impunity, I gave my friendly G passengers an unannounced high-speed express ride from Smith-9th to Court Square. (Just spreading the good times we get on the 1 on a regular basis.) Yes, I honked in the TA-approved fashion.
Heh. I'm still trying to find a legal way to break the rubber band at the end of the station ... (and yes, there IS a way, you just add another stop beyond the terminal and change the terminal "=" to a "1")
Word is though when Mackoy finishes version 3 and puts it out in a couple of months, you'll be tripped TA style. Even suggested a big plastic cup replace the tracks as a reminder. :)
interesting. Hows about taking a nice big Dash 9 with 50 Chemical cars behind yeeee on the Chicago Els, ever tried that boy?
There ARE freight scenarios available in BVE that can be readily transplanted onto a Manhattan bridge Q train if you want, though you'd have to create your own route for that specific one. I'm not sure if anyone's done the Chicago els for BVE yet, but with SO many "here's how to create your own stuff" sites popping up, shouldn't be too long before someone does it ...
With so many folks foaming over MSTS lately, figured I'd give it another go and try to be objective. Spent the greater part of today toying with MSTS and I *still* think it sucks ... sorry. :)
Ah, the WHIZ QUIZ
It's all about REALISM, something sadly lacking in MSTS. Maybe some folks in Redmond should see the TA nurse. :)
Trainz has been outfor less than a month and they're already getting ready to issue a service pack. M$ doesn't need to see the nurse, they need to wake up. I prescribe high dose Benzedrene. 8~0
Heh. TRAINZ also looks VERY nice although they're off in yet another direction, that of a VIRTUAL model train layout rather than a "rail simulator" where the focus is operating. Dunno what MSTS' trip is, they seem to want to try to cover all bases and like a jack of all trades, do them all poorly. Still, I guess for folks that don't know the difference, MSTS is cool and all but if you've run trains it just doesn't do it. Now TRAINZ on the other hand if they don't get too greedy with their "rolling stock licences" will probably develop QUITE the following among modellers ... their artwork is STUNNING ...
I've tried to ask this once already, but not gotten a satisfactory explanation. By the time the order for the R-38s went in, hadn't the TA seen plenty of rust on plenty of cars? Hadn't they figured out that the R-32s were stainless steel for a reason? Why would they have even entertained the idea of going back to carbon steel? But yet they did, and it seems that half the fleet is now built out of duct tape. Can anyone explain the blunder?
By the time the order for the R-38s went in, hadn't the TA seen plenty of rust on plenty of cars? Hadn't they figured out that the R-32s were stainless steel for a reason? Why would they have even entertained the idea of going back to carbon steel? But yet they did, and it seems that half the fleet is now built out of duct tape. Can anyone explain the blunder?
They certainly had plenty of experience with the R11's which were also 100% stainless and the R10's which were bought at the same time.
If car bodies did not rust out, there would be less work for car design within the TA and less need for car designers. Job security was rationalized on the basis of faulty cost "effectivness" data.
On the subject of duct tape, I don't see very much of it on the Redbirds. I am missing it or is it not there. And if it is not there, why???????????
They use lots and lots of Bondo instead.
A good analogy to the original question would be recommended oil and filter change intervals in automobile owner's manuals. I had to laugh when I saw the recommended filter change intervals in my folks' '86 Olds Firenza manual: every 12 months or 7500 miles. I concluded they do that on purpose so that the dealership can see you a few years later when the engine fails and it's time for a new car. That car will be 16 years old in April and is still oil-tight after almost 144,000 miles, and change the oil and filter every 3 months or 3000 miles.
A lot of the 'birds that were being held together by duct tape are now sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic off the Delaware coastline. If not, there are a few of them still running on the #5 line (look, as always, for the 7000 series and 8000 series with the green stripe below the number plate, if its not rusted over).
Because Budd had a better handle on stainless steel fabrication
than St. Louis
Budd actually had a UNIQUE welding method that no other car maker was able to get a handle on doing - that was Budd's little secret. I had dug up some detail on it several months ago and posted it here, though I have NO idea of which message and where in the archives it went. The successors of Budd (Bombardier maybe?) got the technique and special equipment. But it was the "shot weld" that made it possible for Budd to underbid the other vendors with expensive all-stainless construction.
See patent number 1,944,106 approved 16 Jan 1934 (Electric Welding).
THAT'S the secret! Thanks for the detail on it! :)
And yet the TA never awarded another contract to Budd after the R32s. It's too bad, really. Maybe we'd have a lot less cars with roof troubles.
Budd kinda went under between the 32's and the next car class they were awarded. Damned shame too ...
And a lot more cars lasting longer.
Them maybe the TA should have stayed with Budd. But they didn't and look what it got them.
AHHH....stainless steel and duct tape still mix well together on my R142s. All hermetically sealed electronic mech doors are refastened with duct tape to assure the trainset leaves inspection safe and secure. CI Peter
The contract bid calls for;
Price of all stainless steel
Price for LATH
Price for....
The lowest bidder was SLC for LATH material.
If the bid was for stainless steel only, Red Lion PA would have been busy.
Check out a copy of today's New York Post.
The headline is "GHOST TRAIN".
The photo is at the ground zero site and there is the remains of the PATH train abandoned at the WTC center station on Sept. 11th.
The cars haven't seen any kind of daylight since Sept.11th, but unfortunately at the former WTC site. The cars from a distance look bashed, sorry, I can't see the car numbers.
This photo is a chilling reminder of what happened on 9/11 and the PATH WTC station we all went through in better times. My guess is that the entire train MAY be scrapped on site. Removal of debris above the WTC station will surely damage the remaining unscathed cars. That's my guess,and I could be wrong.
Buy a copy while they still are available. This copy is the Late City Final.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Post is a bit behind, don't you think?
Everyone (at least all of us here) knew there was a train buried in the station. That was established right at the start.
The link: http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/38632.htm
Yeah but we were looking for stuff like that. Your average New Yorker probably never thought to think if there was still a train in the station.
>>The Post is a bit behind, don't you think?
Everyone (at least all of us here) knew there was a train buried in the station. That was established right at the start.<<
I don't think the Post is a bit behind. The picture clearly shows the progress of clearing the site. The publicity over the months focused on Ground Zero, with little coverage of what lies beneath it. I didn't see many newsworthy shots of IRT Cortlandt as I would have liked.
Bill "Newkirk"
A co-worker just gave me a copy of the Post. That is quite a picture.
While I always had an idea of how deep 7 floors down was, as I have been at that station many times, that picture was an eye opener.
Too bad that picture is online. That will be a keeper.
>>A co-worker just gave me a copy of the Post. That is quite a picture.
While I always had an idea of how deep 7 floors down was, as I have been at that station many times, that picture was an eye opener.<<
It also goes to show us how swift the recovery is going as well as how vast the devastion is. We can all look at that picture and remember when we were down there last. It's never going to look the same !
The last time I was there was on the Saturday when Hoboken Festival 2001 (Try Transit Festival) was being held. I attended the 207th St shop tour that morning. After that, a ride on the #1 Bway Local to 96th St and an express to Chambers and a #1 to Cortlandt.
I've been there many times and never took any pictures figuring the need for that. Now I wish I had, we all take for granted of using a certain facility and never batting an eyelash. It's five months after the fact and still can't believe what happened and how everything has changed radically.
Bill "Newkirk"
First, it's 4 months. Second, this is the first time I've heard news of the train being unearthed, IOW, it's been buried under the rubble for 4 months and only now are they exposing it.
They showed the train appearing from a hole on channel 4. They claim that the "bathtub" is indeed leaking, and that workers are trying to keep plugging it up.
I just can't seem to get this photo tn the post's website...any ideas?
thanks...Karl.
I just can't seem to get this photo tn the post's website...any ideas?
Only a small selection of each paper's photos are on the website.
SallamAllah posted a picture of the PATH cars in WTC earlier.
no ...33rd st station BUT i did get a railfan window view shot of a PATH train coming in .
& i did shoot video under the WTC ...
KARL M.
I tried to e-mail you a link top the article, but they come back undelivered. Having trouble with your e-mail ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yea, try brtman@att.net,that's my home e-mail address....thanks karl
I saw a shot of it on Channel 5 news; one car is x39, not sure if it is 139, 639 or 739; it has the big numerals so it's not a PA-4; I will keep an eye out for it on later newscasts.
wayne
Was definitely 139, you could see it clearly on the news report that I saw.
Yeah, Bill, I just saw the cover of today's NY Post. That's quite a cover!
I'd guess that the most heavily damaged of the cars will be scrapped, but would surmise that PATH might restore the least damaged to passenger service (or MOW duty).
BMTman
Kawasaki built strong PATH cars for PATH. Did you look at the upper corner of page 4? My school's in the paper again.
Channel Four ran this story about the PATH cars on the 5 o'clock news.
They also added that the slurry wall also know as "the bathtub" is leaking. Construction crews are shoring up the leaks as reported by Channel 4. Let's hope this doesn't spell trouble for the redevelopment of this area.
Bill "Newkirk"
They also added that the slurry wall also know as "the bathtub" is leaking. Construction crews are shoring up the leaks as reported by Channel 4. Let's hope this doesn't spell trouble for the redevelopment of this area.
I agree, but remember leaks aren't collapses. If water is seeping, it can be pumped out. If a chunk of the bathtub collapses, all bets are off and the safety of the crews at Ground Zero is compromised.
Let us hope ....
Let us hope....maybe a tunnel full of ARC-5s set for 3-6 mHz opens up. CI Peter
I remember seeing those years ago for 5 bucks at the Rochester Hamfest. Receiver or transmitter including dynamotor. Now I gotta upgrade so I can get on the YAY EMM ragchews NO CONTESTS, NO SIDEBAND and just enough CW to get the ticket, Then NO MORE CODE, EVER!!!
Who is the idiot at the NY Post that wrote this ? ? ?
"That hub might combine access to PATH trains, 14 city subway lines, and Long Island Rail Road trains, as well as retail shops. "
LIRR at the WTC ? ? ?
Someone probably went into their files and dug out the story from a couple of months ago when there was a discussion about putting an LIRR station downtown as well as extending Metro North down from GCT to the WTC area.
Of course no other details were provided and the two ideas were mostly wishful thinking by some subrubanite(s) about where they want the lines to go so they don't have to transfer to the subway every day. Of course, there's a lot of the same stuff posted here all the time (by me included), but we don't promote our ideas to 900,000 other people without offering any follow up on how it would be built or what it would cost.
Are those Target M-1s still dead-ended at Calverton siding? has anyone Pixed them?
avid
Guys, I was looking at the November 2001 issue of Railway Age last night and I noticed in the Transit Update column an uncredited graphic of lower Manhattan's west side subway routes, post 9/11, which I'm certain was the same map as Mr. Adler's on this site. IIRC, it even includes the "In Memoriam" box. I'm thinking it was lifted directly from nycsubway.org. Were you aware of this? I can scan the page at home if you'd like.
I've seen this issue, too. It was lifted from the site. Way to go, Keystone Pete, for exposing the plagerist.
Tunnel Rat
I wasn't, but that doesn't mean Mike wasn't. Have to let him chime in on this.
Keystone Pete,
Dave alerted me after he saw your post. I have not given permission for them to use any of my maps nor they requested one from me at all.
I was planning on going to library to see the map, but if you don't mind scanning that for me and send it to my email:
adler1969@aol.com
Thanks,
Michael Adler
Gee, I don't know. I don't have permission from Railway Age to reproduce pages from their magazine. :O)
(I'll scan it this weekend.)
And in this case, you're safe... you DO have the permission of the legitimate copyright holder, and second, you're not publishing it, just copying (or scanning) one page for your own personal use, so it falls under the "fair use" doctrine. (Note that photographs and artwork adhere to a stricter definition of "fair use" than this, but since Railway Age isn't the legitimate copyright holder of the artwork that's irrelevant. If they did have Mike's permission, however, you couldn't scan it from that source without their permission as well - his permission notwithstanding.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I started to write (in a letter to friends) that a LIRR station downtown as part of WTC transit redevelopment would bring commuter RRs to a district that has never had them. That got me thinking, though.
I know very little about mid-19th Century RRs. What was the lowest (southernmost) point on Manhattan Island that had a passenger RR (*not* a subway) terminal?
Not a terminal where you had to take a ferry to somewhere else to get the train. Not a subway. And preferably not long-distance service (100 mi or more) but serving local stations, either within NYC or at least just outside the city.
I think it's 23rd Street, but I bet someone knows for sure ....
What was the lowest (southernmost) point on Manhattan Island that had a passenger RR (*not* a subway) terminal?
Not a terminal where you had to take a ferry to somewhere else to get the train. Not a subway. And preferably not long-distance service (100 mi or more) but serving local stations, either within NYC or at least just outside the city.
The west side High Line ran as far south as Canal Street, but I'm not certain if it ever had passenger service.
The west side High Line ran as far south as Canal Street, but I'm not certain if it ever had passenger service.
Actually, IIRC, it ran even further down, to a freight terminal on what is now the WTC site. The Friend of the High Line site refers to a southernmost portion between Spring and Clarkson Streets, but I *think* my WTC book showed the site of a terminal that was demolished in the Fifties as the NW corner of the WTC site.
But it was always clearly a freight line. Possibly that alignment had passenger service in the 19th century? I think the answer to my question is going to be from the mid-1850s.
Indeed, Official Guides from the 1860's show service in upper Manhattan.
Indeed, Official Guides from the 1860's show service in upper Manhattan.
Although that was running down the alignment before the 1920s and 1930s West Side Improvement that put the RR under Riverside Park and built the High Line.
What were the stops?
Oh, almost forgot. Trains Magazine will feature the NYC High Line in their March issue (goes on sale around the 1st of Feb 2002.
Stops along the WestSide line included:
INWOOD at Dyckman St
WASHINGTON HEIGHTS at GW Bridge.
FORT WASHINGTON at W161 St
W152 St
MANHATTANVILLE at W130 St
Probably a few more stops south of there.
Probably one at 34 St to connect with Penn Station.
I think there was one in the upper 20's.
Going south I think it might have been more freight than passenger service.
If I'm wrong about any of it, I'm sure I'll be corrected!
Stops along the WestSide line included ... Going south I think it might have been more freight than passenger service.
What years was passenger service available? Anyone got a complete list?
BTW, when plans for the West Side Yards were being critiqued in the early Nineties, the Manhattan Borough President's office recommended a 72nd Street stop to relieve the load on the 72nd Street 1/2/3 station. Neither Amtrak nor Trump had the slightest interest, of course, and the idea died.
The line did NOT run to the World Trade Center. The St. John's Park Freight Terminal was constructed on the former site of St. John's Park between Beach, Laight, Varick and Hudson Streets. After the surface line which traveled along Hudson, Canal, West, 10th, 11th and then the river was replaced by the High Line, the new terminal would bear the same name and would be located (and still stands) between Clarkson, Spring, Washington and West Streets. The original site was used for the Holland Tunnel exit.
The St. John's Park was named after the St. John's Church, part of the Trinity's parish. The church was demolished in 1917 when Varick Street was widened for the West Side IRT. It is depicted in the wall mosaics of the Canal Street station on the 1/2.
Ah, OK, thanks. But it did run technically S of Canal, eh?
I would think north of Canal Street.
Yes, former St. John's Park, now the Holland Tunnel auto merry-go-round, is south of Canal.
The history of that line is confusing. There was a RR at one time which could have been like NYCRR that went to Grand Central. But that was abondoned. NY City tried to bring it back by using the High Line. But that never really took hold.
The last time I walked around down there, it seemed that the ROW was gradually being scaled back. I think now it only goes as far as W14 St. And I'm not too sure if even that remains.
The last time I walked around down there, it seemed that the ROW was gradually being scaled back. I think now it only goes as far as W14 St. And I'm not too sure if even that remains.
The High Line has been much covered on SubTalk in the past. See the Friends of the High Line website for history and current situation.
Well the Long Island Railroad ran passneger service via the Willie B to the Chambers Street station in the late `teens. That's not a dedicated railroad-only line, of course, but it did involve railcars belonging to a subsidiary of the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Well the Long Island Railroad ran passneger service via the Willie B to the Chambers Street station in the late `teens. That's not a dedicated railroad-only line, of course, but it did involve railcars belonging to a subsidiary of the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Well, I'd have to say THAT counts. The LIRR is definitely a commuter RR!
Out of curiosity, steam or third-rail? I'd have to think third-rail (too early for diesel) but wondering if LIRR shoes work on BMT third rails?
Where was the service from? (Jamaica shuttle?) How many trains? How long did it last? AND ... why'd they STOP?
Anywhere I can go for more info?
I think the service left the LIRR on the Atlantic Branch, and joined the Jamaica line around Chestnut Street (Near Crescent Station) there is still evidence on the el structur there. The LIRR then rode on the Broadway el to terminate at Chambers.
The operation, when it went into Manhattan, was electric. It was part of the interline agreement between the LIRR and the BRT for joint operation of service, first from Broadway Ferry on the Brooklyn side, later over the WB to Delancey Street (Essex Street toda) on May 30, 1909. Service was extended to Chambers Street on August 4, 1913. Business fell off and both companies used WWI as an excuse to end service on September 3, 1917.
Didn't the ICC (or whatever it's predecessor was) order the BMT-LIRR services discontinued?
No. The PSC though was not very happy about wood BU cars being
operated through the Centre St subway!
Brings up a tangent question: At what point did the BRT begin
installing trip arms? Certainly in the dual contracts they
were being used, but did Centre St open with them installed?
What about the elevated lines?
I never heard this. I don't know that there was any agency that ruled on the provision or discontinuance of passenger services as happened after WWII.
Of course, after this time, the United States Railroad Administration (USRA) was formed that actually operated railroads and some other carriers seized by the government for wartime necessity. The USRA was established December 26, 1917, and railroads and other seized carriers were returned to private control on March 1, 1920.
But at any rate, the USRA was established after the end of the Rockaway joint services.
Paul, if I recall correctly didn't the ICC make a ruling in the early part of the 20th Century that rapid transit and common carriers were not allowed to share same trackage??? That would certainly have caused an end to BMT/LIRR service.
I could be wrong, but thought I heard at least SOMETHING along those lines...
BMTman
I doubt that, Doug, because their were too many examples of shared trackage that lasted way past WWII: SIRT and freight; H&M-PRR shared trackage; several interurbans and Chicago el; BRT/BMT and its freight services.
Not to mention freight operations that used trolley trackage.
Right. Geez, how can I forget SBK!
Actually, Bob Anderson should get into this mix -- he might be able to shed some more light on this topic.
Hello -- Bob, are you out there????
BMTman
I'm here Doug, but I don't know the answer, either.
The operation, when it went into Manhattan, was electric. It was part of the interline agreement between the LIRR and the BRT for joint operation of service, first from Broadway Ferry on the Brooklyn side, later over the WB to Delancey Street (Essex Street toda) on May 30, 1909. Service was extended to Chambers Street on August 4, 1913. Business fell off and both companies used WWI as an excuse to end service on September 3, 1917.
I suppose the service would have been doomed when the LIRR line on Atlantic was put underground in 1940 or so. It would have been very costly to have built a new connection.
If the service had been a going concern, I'm sure they would have made a provision to connect up to it, just as they did at Woodhaven for Rockaway trains.
Considering the talk going around about an LIRR connection to downtown as part of the WTC reconstruction (see the last parapgraph of Thursday's story in the Post for the latest mention), it's ironic that the railroad coludn't make a go of it 85 years ago. Of course, given the future FRA rules, some other way of connecting it to lower Manhattan would have had to have been thought up, since the shairing of the Broadway el would have been a no-no.
[Out of curiosity, steam or third-rail?]
It was third rail. The trains were MP41's which were a combination railroad car/rapid transit car. They looked something like the Low-V.
[Where was the service from? (Jamaica shuttle?) How many trains? How long did it last? ]They usually went to the Rockaways on either the old Rockaway LIRR Branch which is now the IND subway or the present day Far Rockaway LIRR Branch through the 5 Towns. It lasted from around the turn of the century through the late teens around the end of WW1.
[Anywhere I can go for more info?
The book "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George tells all about the Chestnut Street Connection. I am not at home now, otherwise I would quote from the book or scan the pages.
Although you didn't ask, just in case you're interested the MP41's lasted till the 50's and were last used on the 'ol Central Branch Shuttle between Country Life Press and Clinton Rd. (the station which is now a firehouse.)
Do you count the elevated railroads in your question? If so, the Third Ave elevated railroad went to Whitehall Ferry terminal at the southern tip of Manhattan Island, back in the 1880's & 1890's. Also, there was an elevated cable car system from Battery Place to Cortlandt Street from 1868 to the late 1870's.
Hope this helps answer your question.
Do you count the elevated railroads in your question?
Good info, thanks. I guess the answer is another question, Do you consider an elevated RR a "commuter train"?
Back then, most people commuted from within NYC either by walking or the El. But Riverdale is said to have been the first commuter suburb, from about the 1860s, because the Hudson RR went there, enabling commuting from what were formerly rural areas.
So I guess I'm looking for "real" trains (steam, back then), not El trains ....
After reading this month's NY Division Bulletin, I would say Park Row. Horses would tow the steam RR passenger car (New York and Hudson) from the old Grand Central on the street to Park Row in front of City Hall.
(College Pl is the old name for West Broadway)
I'm going by memory of an article I read some time ago, but I believe the answer may be almost to South Ferry.
I believe that the West Side line (in early days when it was on the surface) had arrangements to carry their cars down near the Battery. I don't recall whether this arragement was by steam power or not.
A more firm, but still speculative answer is Beach Street (I think it is called Ericson Place right there). The automobile playground south of Canal where cars exit from the Holland Tunnel, bounded by Hudson Street on the west and Varick on the east was a major rail terminal, as still attested to by the warehouses on the south side, and, before that, a rather nice City park.
I believe that this terminal hosted passenger service AFTER rail cars could no longer go south of that point.
I am certain on none of this however (in regard to passenger operations, that is--the terminal at Beach Street did exist) but perhaps it will point others to better information.
Apparantly the soundtrack is available on vinyl - click here.
-Robert King
Photo courtesy of www.nycsubway.org
The R-36WF
Thank you everyone for voting in the first official on-line SubTalk poll.
The end results of the vote on favorite in-service IRT car are:
1.) R26 - 6%
2.) R28 - 2%
3.) R29 - 7%
4.) R33 - 7%
5.) R36 Mainline - 2%
6.) R36 World's Fair - 34%
7.) R62 - 8%
8.) R62A - 9%
9.) R142 - 5%
10.) R142A - 20%
You can also combine results for similar contracts:
1.) R26 - 6%
2.) R28 - 2%
3.) R29 - 7%
4.) R33 - 7%
5.) R36 World's Fair - 36%
6.) R62 - 17%
7.) R142 - 25%
Or go even further by generation:
1.) Redbirds 58%
2.) R62 - 17%
3.) R142 - 25%
So in sum, one-quarter of SubTalkers who participated named the r142 as their favorite, in-service IRT car, while almost 3 out of 5 felt a Redbird was their favorite.
Coming soon will be a poll on in-service IND/BMT cars.
MATT-2AV
I'm shocked the hated R142 did so well, as well as why the R142A got more attention than the R142. I can't tell the difference between them.
Differences exist, they are just hard to find.
Given what I've read here, I'm quite surprised. I thought we Redbird fans were vastly outnumbered, when apparently the R-36WF alone is more popular (among those who voted) than either of the later generations.
I really wish I could have voted for the R-142 or R-142A, since they are rapidly taking over, but they're chock full of design flaws to my mind. Not being a Flushingite, I voted for the venerable R-33.
Hi everybody!
First let me congratulate the master(s) of this site, I'm glad I found it!
I am a writer and just finished a novel that is set in the New York underground. Since the work is (a) fiction and (b) set in the future, I have (so far) not stuck to the facts. Now that the book is done I am in the editing process and thought that I'd try to get a feel for some subway lingo & the general atmosphere.
I probably won't understand half of the posts on this board (sounds like everybody's an expert on this stuff), but it doesn't hurt to try, right?
Looking forward to getting lost in the word salad of subtalk,
-Niki da Silva
Looking forward to getting lost in the word salad of subtalk
Word salad, what a great image!
Frankly, if you post a question or two -- whether detailed or conceptual -- I bet you'll get a ton'o'feedback. Good luck.
Greenhorn, I haven't heard that expression in a LONG time, but welcome in any event.
Now, if you said just off the boat.....
I found this on the MTA website. I was curious as to why they would choose Marcy Ave to do all this work. Is it that busy of a station to warrant all this? What do they do to decide what stations get this sort of upgrade and rehabilitation. It just seems that there are many busier stations that would require this sort of work before Marcy.
Here it is: I pasted it from the MTA site:
CONSTRUCT ADA ACCESSIBILITY REQUIREMENTS
MARCY AVENUE STATION
$1M - $5M
This project is to make the Marcy Avenue station accessible under the requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act legislation This project is to rehabilitate the Marcy Avenue Station on the Jamaica Line in Queens. The scope of work for the project includes the following tasks.
-Repair structural deficiencies throughout the station
Provide architectural treatments to the customer areas in the station
-Upgrade communications and lighting systems, as required
-Provide new, fully equipped agent booths and fare arrays, as needed
-Install signage and other passenger amenities
-Rehabilitate station operating facilities, as required
-Remove visual clutter and install artwork
-Perform all work that is necessary to comply with the approved NYC --Transit policy and operating requirements
(ADA). The scope of work includes the following tasks.
-Furnish and install elevators which will meet the ADA standards
-Install platform edge warning strips and reduce platform gaps and train thresholds
-Install ADA required signage (including Braille) with related lighting
-Install an automated vending machines for the visually and hearing impaired
-Modify control area access gates and agent windows to a height of 36 inches
-Install ADA compliant handrails on ramps, where required
Provide text and volume adjustable telephones
-Duration of Contract 36 Months Monthly list
The station needs renovation and the scope of the work is probably so great that it requires having ADA enhancements installed at the same time.
Oh, so if the work becomes extensive to a certain point, then the ADA requirements become necessary. That makes more sense. I couldn't understand why they would choose Marcy to become ADA compliant.
Why not? Marcy Avenue is a major transfer point at a busy hub. You have the Williamsburg Bridge, at least 10 bus lines, and a busy shopping district.
It would not call it a busy shopping district. About the only thing there is the grand old bank building plus Peter Lugar's, both somewhat down the street. I would have let the station moulder a few more years in favor of another project:
Replace Hewes and Lorimer with a single entirely new, wholly ADA compliant station with a transfer to the Broadway-station G, with elevators and escalators to get to to all involved platforms. Marcy is demoted to a local stop during rush hour. This would be a very serious enhancement, and would be partial recompense to the long-suffering G-riders for their loss of rush-hour access to Queens Plaza.
Wouldn't Peter Lugar's alone be enough for a station upgrade? Steakhouses get no respect anymore! :0)
Seriously, though, a heavy rail-bus transfer point would justify a rehab.
Or, it might be political: an important councilmember or assemblyman or senator needed something to deliver to constituents.
To get to Peter Lugar's, you hafta walk down Broadway, which was particularly desolate the last time I was there (the only active storefront, in fact). To eat there, you have to have limo service to get there and go home. South of Broadway is heavily Hasidic (Satmar, I think, the Lee Ave crowd) and is basically safe, but the whole neighborhood is still one vast slum.
To get to Peter Lugar's, you hafta walk down Broadway, which was particularly desolate the last time I was there (the only active storefront, in fact). To eat there, you have to have limo service to get there and go home. South of Broadway is heavily Hasidic (Satmar, I think, the Lee Ave crowd) and is basically safe, but the whole neighborhood is still one vast slum.
You're making the 'hood sound like Sodom and Gomorrah. It's not that bad, not anymore.
A vast slum? When was the last time you walked along Broadway? I see many stores, including national chains and mom-and-pop operations thriving.
Of course, that bus terminal and the proximity to the Williamsburg Bridge and the shopping district are again why Marcy is getting the re-hab.
Your idea of a Broadawy-Union Avenue connection (BMT-IND) is a good one, but the costs involved would be greater than the Marcy project. Maybe the TA can start a MetroCard transfer at that location, a la the 7/G transfer or the F/4,5,6.
A vast slum? When was the last time you walked along Broadway?
About ten or more years. I even asked for the bus ticket at the Marcy booth (that ticket seemed to be well-used; I musta been the only one in days to ask for it, since it ran on such lengthy headways; I was the only one on that bus, and the driver was suprised to see me). Yes, I was railfanning, as well as exploring a place to yuppie-scummify. Do you know about the Seneca Club?
As I remember it, Broadway after Marcy was a long 19th century street frozen in time, right down to the granite cobblestones. Everything was bricked/concrete-blocked up, except for Peter Lugar's (which was also glassless at the front) and a stray Satmar hat shop. The landmark, of course, is the Williamsburgh Savings Bank building (the original, and not the 'new' one at Hanson Place). The whole place was dismal slum.
I gather that the neighborhood has improved. Are you saying I can buy designer furniture from a shopfront on Broadway near P.Lugar's now?
[Or, it might be political: an important councilmember or assemblyman or senator needed something to deliver to constituents.]
Look who lives in the area. Politicians are scared of Hassidics and always bow down to them for their votes!!!
Not bow down: daven.
I always wondered why they never tried to make a connection from the G Broadway station and either Hewes or Lorimer (I'm not sure which is closer), I know you can see the entrance to the G from the el between the stations. It seems like a usefull project, and the land values had to be fairly cheap right there. Alot of the buildings are either razed or burnt, so land aquisition couldn't have been too high. The neighborhood has been a disaster for quite some time, although it is slowly improving with rehabs and new construction. It just seems like the Broadway el should be connected to the G. Was there ever any talk of it?
Broadway-G to/from the Hewes or Lorimar Broadway-el is a serious candidate for a 'walking transfer'. It's easy enough to do. Why have they not done it?
The descriptions elsewhere on this site accurately describe the Broadway, Flushing and Myrtle G-stations as places which are best avoided. Nothing a couple of cops wouldn't fix.
Yeah it's similar to Atlantic on the L line. I used to use the ENY LIRR station for a while, and would have to walk in the evening from ENY station to Atlantic Ave station. It always struck me funny that a "police escort" was usually there. It always, however, made me glad the police car was parked between the LIRR station and the Atlantic L station.
The descriptions on this site are not all very recent, some go back a few years. I traverse the area frequently, and can assure you it's a safe area. The Hasidim, in connection with the Shorim patrols and the Police Station close by all total a safe experience. This isn't Broadway in 1983 when you needed bulletproof underwear just to get the paper.
I always wondered why they never tried to make a connection from the G Broadway station and either Hewes or Lorimer (I'm not sure which is closer), I know you can see the entrance to the G from the el between the stations. It seems like a usefull project, and the land values had to be fairly cheap right there. Alot of the buildings are either razed or burnt, so land aquisition couldn't have been too high. The neighborhood has been a disaster for quite some time, although it is slowly improving with rehabs and new construction. It just seems like the Broadway el should be connected to the G. Was there ever any talk of it?
There wasn't as urgent a need for the transfer until the recent cutback of the G's northern terminus.
It would not call it a busy shopping district. About the only thing there is the grand old bank building plus Peter Lugar's, both somewhat down the street.
It looked like a pretty busy area whenever I've seen it. Just the bus transfer point (Washington Plaza, IIRC) is enough to guarantee reasonably high ridership at Marcy.
Incorrect. All trains stop at Marcy Avenue at all times.
Actually I think Marcy as a local was part of HIS plan, he didn't mean it as current service.
If "major" work is done to any "public accomodation" then ADA compliance is needed. No ADA compliance is needed if no "major" work is done.
This leads to the result that owners (both public and private) will not do renovations because if they did the ADA costs will make it impracticable.
Question, however. I read that there was a waiver for the work on the Union Square Station because there was no room to put elevators on the IRT platforms. Is impossiblity the only exeception??
Question, however. I read that there was a waiver for the work on the Union Square Station because there was no room to put elevators on the IRT platforms. Is impossiblity the only exeception??
Ummmm, I'm not sure this is true. I know there are BMT elevators. I know there's a ground-level to mezzanine elevator near the south end of the IRT tracks. Don't know about the L line, however ... but I *think* there are IRT elevators.
HUH.
Now I'll have to check ....
It's true. There was no practical way to get elevators (or ramps either, I'd guess) down to the platforms on the Lex side, so it wasn't done.
David
Seem more or less plausible. Note that there ARE elevators from street to mezzanine level and from mezzanine level to the L and N/R/Q/W platforms.
It must be something less than total impossibility that allows a waiver. There would be room to put in elevators to the IRT, except it would probably have a serious adverse effect on crowding (e.g., removing a stairway to install an elevator would make the remaining stairways unacceptably crowded).
That's a load of nonsense. If major renovations are needed anyway, ADA additions will not add very much, proportionately. Designing ADA compliance into the blueprint before you start digging cuts the cost of ADA down significantly.
If I come on a bit strong about that, it's because we in the medical profession constantly have to debunk myths about what ADA costs society...
This project is to rehabilitate the Marcy Avenue Station on the Jamaica Line in Queens.
Good going, MTA. You folks are from New York, aren't you? Marcy Avenue is in Brooklyn.
(Unless this area was secretly ceded to Queens. This is where much of Comming To America was filmed, supposedly in Queens.)
:-) Andrew
I didn't know that! I always wondered where. What streets were "Coming to America" filmed on by Marcy? I know the "McDowell's" was the Wendy's on Queens Blvd, by St John's Hospital
It was the street where the Eddie Murphy and Arsenio Hall characters were staying. I forget what the exact street was, but a telltale sign was the black streetsigns with white type. In Queens they had white streetsigns with blue type. (Though by the 1980's they were already replacing many of the color-coded street signs with the standard white-on-green we know today.)
There is another instance in this movie as Brooklyn posing as Queens. A subway station signed as "Van Wyck Blvd" was actually Hoyt-Shcermerhorn.
Many scenes were indeed shot in Queens, such as those at the Wendy's posing as "McDowells" on Queens Blvd.
:-) Andrew
It was the street where the Eddie Murphy and Arsenio Hall characters were staying. I forget what the exact street was, but a telltale sign was the black streetsigns with white type. In Queens they had white streetsigns with blue type.
Hmmmmm ... sounds like something for nitpickers.com
Although it could have been worse - at least Vancouver wasn't disguised as Queens.
...or Hong Kong for Da Bronx (as in Jackie Chan's 'Rumble in the Bronx').
;-D
Chan=Wimp, You know da Bronx boy ... who had the big brass clangers at Bway Jct? Heh.
Kev, you be Da Man! ;-D
It wasn't puffy's FOAM! Really! Heh. I sat and stared at a pathetic bunch'o'faces though who spotted da gloves and I waited for someone to leap on down and reach for da crime scene ... nada ... if da glove don't fit, then it must be two lefties. :)
Got MY buns burnt ... and at no time did I enter upon, nor cross da trax ... HeyPaul was too busy pushing dem over da edge. Heh. Ghods, do I love TEAMWORK when I can spot same.
Or Toronto's subway system for New York's.
I remember those scenes, and they looked like a rough area, even without the Hollywood effect of making it look worse. I loved the scene where the King and all his people arrive and get out in that disaster of an neighborhood and start throwing rose petals around. Real funny!
that was Williamsburg,Brooklyn.like S4 street or 5.it was the block up from Marcy train station.......
There is another instance in this movie as Brooklyn posing as Queens. A subway station signed as "Van Wyck Blvd" was actually Hoyt-Shcermerhorn.
Yeah and the grafittied train! Wow I forgot how bad they looked. The movie was filmed though when the trains still looked like that.
beautiful. If one looks closely, one could spot "DAZE" a very visible character on the Queens Blvd trains (from Jamaica yard, his second home)
I'll bet the designers of the IND never thought Hoyt-Schermerhorn would wind up as a popular movie set.
It was filmed in South Williamsburg, because i recall seeing a Hooper St. Black Streetsigh and the J train. that area is about a block south of the J and right around the Willy B.
There is another instance in this movie as Brooklyn posing as Queens. A subway station signed as "Van Wyck Blvd" was actually Hoyt-Shcermerhorn.
At least Hollywood tried to make it as true as possible. I believe the McDowells "lived" in Jamaica Estates, so when they got on the subway, they would have gotten on at the end of the Queens Blvd line, and then end up at "Van Wyck Blvd", or actually it may have said "Sutphin" I don't know it was a while since I'd seen that movie.
Ok, here it goes (try not to cringe too much, I promise I'm a fast learner)!
1. Are the tracks the cars run on usually referred to as "rails" or "tracks"? Are these terms interchangable?
2. Is it dangerous to touch the third rail, or is it somehow insulated as a safety precaution?
I promise my questions will get better as I fight my way through the information on this page, so please bear with me.
Thanks a lot,
-Niki
Don't be embarassed. Noone's born knowing these things.
One track=two rails (or three, if you count the "third rail".)
Usually the top of the third rail has a plank or something you could step on (not that I'd recommend it), but the rail itself should never be touched.
:-) Andrew
1. The terms are interchangeable*, although most of the time they are called tracks
2. YES!!! it is very dangerous, though it is touchable if you are not touching anything else.
* Rails with ties are tracks
2. YES!!! it is very dangerous, though it is touchable if you are not touching anything else.
And that includes your feet touching the ground!
I can answer the second question for you, in part.
Touching an energized third rail will not hurt you if you are not grounded, or touching something else that is.
Electricity can hurt you by:
1) Your body acts as a resistor and the heat generated burns human tissue. A person with an electrical burn can be critically or mortally injured and not even show it externally, if the path of the electricity was mostly through internal organs.
2) The electrical current can stop your heartbeat.
DON'T DO IT. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.
Others more familiar with electricity and physics should take over now.
Guys, thank you so much!
I can't wait to dream up my next set of qu's.
And, don't worry, I won't touch the third rail ;-)
Niki, May I suggest that you poke around this site, e.g. FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions): Glossary; Abandoned stations; Accidents; Books; City Hall Station; History of the 3 divisions (IRT,BMT,IND); Museums cars (where are the old cars now); Radio Codes; "R" number what it means; Color codes (routes/lines); tunnels & bridges; etc.; etc.
You'll also find a station by station guide.
It's a great place to learn all about mass transit ... enjoy.
Mr rt__:^)
Niki, May I suggest that you poke around this site, e.g. FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions): Glossary; Abandoned stations; Accidents; Books; City Hall Station; History of the 3 divisions (IRT,BMT,IND); Museums cars (where are the old cars now); Radio Codes; "R" number what it means; Color codes (routes/lines); tunnels & bridges; etc.; etc.
At the risk of giving my book a blatant plug, you might want to grab a copy of it (and several others) that get into not only the history of the system, but its operational details. I heartily recommend Brian Cudahy's "Under the Sidewalks of New York" and Stan Fischler's "Subway" in addition to my own < grin >. Of course, as Thurston suggested, get to know this site as well as Joe Korman's. All are wonderful resources.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
'Cheers.' Is that something Canuck?? Oh yeah, look up my call and cross ref the name in a megasearch. So figgah out was' on my helmet???? "Hurricane is OnTheJuice." Next set of dumb questions.
'Cheers.' Is that something Canuck??
Nope, I think it was a fictitious bar in Boston (based on a real bar in Boston Called the Bull and Finch )< grin >. It's also a greeting all my Irish and British friends used when I was a wee lad.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
And, don't worry, I won't touch the third rail ;-)
...and Don't Whizz on the Electric Fence!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
600 volts is pretty insidious. You may think you're well grounded and not be well grounded enough. I once accidentally touched a 220 volt exposed elevator switch with 1 little finger while wearing dry shoes on a dry carpet, and I got the shock of my life.
The warning signs for voltage are misleading. Voltage won't kill you. You can touch 100000V and nothing will happen. What kills you is the amperage. As little as .1A will shock the shit of of you, if not kill you. I don't know what the amps are for a third rail, but it's probably over 1 amp, which is plenty.
Good point.
Keep in mind that a 9-volt battery could kill you if the electrical path went right to your heart's natural pacemaker cells. Very unlikely in terms of event probability, but possible.
How's 10,000 amps.
Human bodies do not have a low enough series resistance to conduct 1000 amps of AC or DC current. It only takes a few milliamperes to stop your heart. Most EHV accidents occur in power transmission line repair...and most victims survive...with a lesson. 600 VDC is another matter...you get 'locked on' and then burn. CI Peter, bugmaster
With AC current you will be "locked on" because your muscles contracts, causing your limbs to grab hold of the source of current. With DC current you proberly be thrown away from the source with a flash of light and a loudly bang
/B
Wrong...it is the opposite. DC locks the muscles in one direction...AC fibrulates them. The DC bang comes about after your head explodes. Then the CTAs clean up the burnt mush. CI Peter, master of the 'Big Bug.' (600 VDC 1200 Amp cable for third rail propulsion motor power.) OnTheJuice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AC causes the muscles to cramp actually. And I’ve seen some victims of the current in the third rail, both survivors and decided, in my work as alternating TSS and Control Center staff here in sweden. Did you know that we build our subway with the NYC-subway as a model.
You can actually take a Swedish train and run it on NYC tracks. The breaking/charging handle and the “reverser” is for one example identical. The couplings, current in the third rail and so on ...
/B
Some people never learn how to do things right cause they pick bad examples BUT maybe we need Swedish trainsets on NYC rails. I can bet my backpocket Krona you made yourself a bootleg speed brake handle and a cut reverser key. SAAB/Skandia carbodies??? Russkies would have a hard time understanding my Swedish 'On the Juice' and 'In the Hole.' Then, I can't understand them most of the time and I usually get blasted. CI Peter
Most were manufactured by ASEA and Hägglunds. The newest type from Adtranz and Bombardier.
/B
Adtranz and Bombardier. Good luck LOL R142 tech. I'd take a shot at ASEA or Hagglunds (no umlaut on my keyboard.) Time to go to sleep....my Bombas will be looking for me in the morn. CI Peter
Bombas still bombing.....caught a barge this afternoon on the Hudson River taking away the Redbird Carbodies. Thanks to Engine Brake and his crew....Special Graces. CI Peter
3rd rails are protected by circuit breakers rated in the hundred kilo-ampere spectrum. One 10-car train, on starting, can easily draw over 5,000 amps.
IF I could only present the demonstration from Dayton Power and Light (Ohio) would SubTalkers truly realise the destructive power of electrical contact. And I had to dress up like Doctor Frankenstein in rubber gloves, apron, helmet and face shield...to check low voltage batteries. CI Peter
How much does it draw accelerating to speed?
TD is snickering in his Lionel bunker so I'll give a left field Division A answer. Redbirds in a ten car set have fourty DC motors so a low DC peak draw of 1000 amps per car times ten times 600 Volts DC equals at leat SIX MILLION WATTS. Car barns have no third rail...to get the trainset out, at least the second and third cars have to be powered by a heavy cable we refer to as the 'big bug' applied to the third rail shoes. Each bug carries 600 volts DC fused at 1200 amps. 600 x 1200 + 600 x 1200 equals 1.56 Million Watts. I won't quibble about a few hundred thousand watts of power. Any error in applying power is lethal...the public only knows what the Police and Fire departments risk everyday. There are the boldest, the bravest, the strongest: a SubTalker identified us as THE SAFEST. TA work is EXCELLENT work...it is also very, very dangerous. CI Peter, Master of the Big Bug.
Actually, Peter, the four (4) traction motors on each car are connected in series on starting so the 450-500 amperes you see on the ammeter is for the car sans the HVAC, air compressor, lights Etc. 5,000 to 6,000 amps is as impressive as it gets.
Many thanks to Train Dude and CI Peter.
TA work is excellent work - the best.
As the train accelerates, the current actually drops off. In full multiple, the traction current may be as little as 200 Amps per car.
Thank you.
You've got it backwards! You must be ungrounded if you don't want to be shocked. If you received an electrical shock you were grounded because the electricity had to flow through you to a grounded object. The reverse is true: if you aren't grounded, the electricity can't get anywhere and won't flow through you and you won't be shocked.
-Robert King
Standard safety warning on most power company bucket trucks, "Not grounded, not DEAD" ...
Yo Gupta, Not Grounded NOT DEAD. Don't screw in 50 volt bulbs in your paddle either. CI Peter
Not to worry, Peter ... around here, we series string flashcubes in an orange juice can and then stuff them into the reject load waveguide. Makes for a HELL of a lightshow for the RCA antenna guys. :)
RCA antenna guys...jeez. I'm the oldest RCA graduate in the yard. CI Peter
Don't screw in 50 volt bulbs in your paddle either.
I prefer hot tubs, personally....
< ducking >
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
You're aboslutely right. What I meant to say is that you may think you're really well insulated and it turns out you aren't as well insulated as you thought.
Interesting story though. I had a somewhat similar encounter with 120 volts. I was playing a record on a Lenco turntable and I could hear an annoying 60 Hz hum in the speakers hinting that some line supply was going somewhere it shouldn't be so I switched off the turntable and the stereo. Then I used the lever to raise the arm from the record on the turntable and I picked up the arm to put it back on its stand and I received a huge shock that felt like my right arm was being torn off. The only other thing I was touching beside the turntable arm was the hardwood floor I was standing on. I hate to think of what could have happened if I was touching something else like the hot water radiator at the time.
-Robert King
A teenaged girl just died about 6 months ago because a frayed extension cord was up against a metal bedframe, and she managed to have one hand on the bed frame and one hand on a radiator, and she was damp from just having taken a shower.
I believe it was in the Daily News.
Nobody deserves that.
:0(
Oh no, that's terrible. It's really saddening to hear about people being hurt or killed in such unfortunate accidents.
-Robert King
Wow...I officially declare myself now an expert on the third rail ;-0
Seriously, guys, thanks so much for all the input!
I have a question for the board, and I think Nikitalk was trying to ask this, is the voltage for the third rail lowered when there's no train around as a safety precaution. My guess is no, but just confirm that?
No, the voltage is not lowered.
Peace,
ANDEE
Doe that waste alot of power?
The power is always on. It's just like household voltage, it is 120 either you use it or not. Those little electrons are always looking for a place to flow to.
Not really. There's probably some electrical leakage from the third rail to ground that could be prevented by turning off the power when there aren't any trains running but that's about it. Keeping the third rail live doesn't consume much power itself, power's only consumed when something is connected to it, drawing current from it.
-Robert King
Nope ... "Reddy Kilowatt" is ALWAYS ready to serve ... be it a ten car consist, or a wayward willie ... oh wait, wrong board. :)
My faith restricts an answer. Ask about goat farming. CI Peter
If you want ot see what happens when you touch the third rail - see the end of "The Taking of Pehlem 1-2-3"
I won't go into details, but it's a LOT more gruesome than a shudder and small wisp of smoke. "Pelham" was fraught with various excessive and minimalist technical "glitches" in what they showed ...
If you want to see what happens when you touch the third rail - see the end of "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3"
Awwwwwwwwww ... you RUINED it ! ! ! !
"The Taking Of Pelham 123" significantly understates what would happen if you were to touch the third rail and a running rail.
-Robert King
If it didn't understate it the movie would have required a tougher rating - and the scene could never have been shown on television.
BS movie glop. Just like TA work is EXCELLENT work, a good electrocution requires EXCELLENT conduction. IF you got a decent connection bridging the third rail..you get fried cahonyies. Of course, you die. A really good connection swells your head and you explode. Just ask the first nine 'excutees' of SingSing prison...nobody ever recorded the meter readings of George Westinghouse'. This TA work is no light joke...it is dangerous and requires knowledge and caution...you MUST protect yourself AND your partner. CI Peter
Exactly right.
Prisoners from death row strapped to the electric chair had either salt water or some very efficient conducting goop put on their heads and legs to help the electrocution process.
My Amtrak train was delayed ten minutes in Baltimore because an unfortunate pigeon managed to get one foot on the 11,000 foot catenary and the other on something grounded. We saw a flash of light, heard a bang, and then watched feathers come drifting down from overhead!
Then there was the time I tried to climb over the fence of a dog kennel with a shock wire on top. Guess what, a concrete block does not provide very good insulation!
Do we want to know why you were climbing into a dog kennel?
Does anyone know, or can make an educated guess, about this:
When Archer Av opened, a new way to travel from north to south was created in the eastern part of the subway system.( Recall that the Queens Blvd line actually travels relatively north-westerly toward Manhattan)
How many riders get on the J and travel to Sutphin Blvd. for the specific purpose of continuing travel on the E (or subsequent transfer to other Queens Blvd. service either inbound, or outbound to 179)?
Probably not many, because there are lots of other options. If you don't live really close to the J and are taking a bus to get to it, that same bus (say on Woodhaven Blvd or Lefferts) also goes to Queens Blvd. Also, if you're going to Manhattan, which is where most people are going, you can go inbound on the J and take the A or L to Manhattan.
So unless your origin and destination are close to the J and E, or vice versa, you probably wouldn't do this.
If you're looking for a specific number I can't help you, but I can tell you anecdotally that the number is sizable.
Occasionally, I take the E out to Sutphin to hook up with the LIRR rather than deal with Penn Station. This past Monday, I got off the E at about 7:45 PM. About 30 or so people exited up the stairs to street level. Another 10 to 15 went down the stairs to the J train.
When take the E city-bound in the AM, I don't see as many transfers. In the AM, I think the transfer may actually occur at Jamaica Center, so that those transferring from the eastbound J can get seats on the westbound E.
CG
Aha! The "get on at the first stop so I get a seat" trick!
Aha! The "get on at the first stop so I get a seat" trick!
Yes, but this trick is most perfectly realized when you stand from TS to GC on the 7, then catch a TimesSq bound train, just to get a seat. Then you watch the fallen-faces of those who gallop into the train in hopes of getting a seat, only to see they are all taken by us regulars.
This trick only works sometimes. Sometimes, you have to backtrack to Hunters Point. I remember my own fallen face when no seats were available even at TS flowing GC.
Does this mean that, going east from TS, you do a TS-GCT-TS loop just to get a seat?
Hoo boy!
What final destination are you heading for?
>> Aha! The "get on at the first stop so I get a seat" trick! <<
Or even go a stop in the wrong direction. I once saw a rush-hour E or a J (can't recall which, probably an E) pull into Jamaica Center. Almost all the seats were taken as it pulled in, and most of those folks remained on the train. They were obviously LIRR commuters who had boarded at Sutphin Blvd but wanted seats and knew full well that they'd never get one on a Manhattan-bound train at Sutphin. For that matter, lots of folks in no hurry will choose the train with seats on one track and let a perfectly good E leave Jamaica on the other track, even if it costs them five minutes or so.
To get the railfan window sometimes I do that, I've backtracked on the E from Sutphin to Parsons, and on the 7 from GC to TS several times.
A reasonable approach, since you are after something which is more scarce than a seat.
I've also seen people ride the L from 6th Ave to 8th Ave and reverse just to get a seat.
I once saw someone here on the Metro get on at Friendship Heights, go to Bethesda, and cross the platform and board an inbound train. Others come from stations north of Grosvenor, get off there, and get on the train to Silver Spring, which is far emptier. And obviously, some of the people who get on at Grosvenor only board the Silver Spring trains.
There are also a large number of people who do this on the 2/5 in Brooklyn, getting on sometimes as far as President St and riding back to Flatbush to get a seat.
For years, passengers at Nostrand and Kingston would backtrack to Utica to get a seat on a #4 train. Who could blame them? In the height of the AM rush, the 4 is already packed from Utica.
Well, you didn't limit the question only to those using the J-to-E route for going to work, so I guess that means you can count me in.
I live right near the corner of Jamaica Ave. and Woodhaven Blvd. I don't take the J-to-E route to work because I work downtown, but a friend of mine who lived a block away from me used to take this route to his job in midtown. (In the 50s, I think.)
But I do frequenly use the J-to-E method to go to Forest Hills. The Barnes and Noble on Austin St. stays open until 11pm, so I sometimes go there in the evenings. Also, there are two great late-night pizzerias right there -- Arianna on Austin, and Sorisi on 71st Ave. Both stay open until 3am on weekends. I am up in the overnights on weekends, so I like to take advantage of this very nice closing time.
To digress a little: those 3am closing times were the best I had seen on any pizzeria until I came across a most delightful cultural resourse -- a 24-hour pizzeria! This precious oasis is located in Jackson Heights at Roosevelt Ave. and 82nd St., and it is called the Broadway Bakery. (And you can take the J-to-E route to get there.)
I left a friend's place in Jackson Heights at about 5:30 last Friday night/Saturday morning, and I was delighted to come upon this. Let me tell you, eating just-made pizza at 6am is one of life's great pleasures!
Does the phenomenon of 24-hour pizza exist elsewhere in Queens or Brooklyn? The world would be a more civilized place if more food places of all kinds were open during the "weekend prime time" hours of 2-5am, as most diners are.
(I say "most diners" because there are two places right near the Jamaica Ave./Woodhaven Blvd. intersection that, inexplicably, are not open 24 hours. I personally think that these places, by virtue of this rephrehensible practice, forfeit the right to call themselves "diners".)
Ferdinand Cesarano
Any place that has a real saucy pie around there?
We got a pizza place in Sea Cliff but they close at 8pm and on Sundays and Mondays, and they're not so great (what did ya think, this is boonsville!)
You're counted in!
24-hour pizza places...well, in the Bayside-Oakland Gardens area, I remember pizza joints being open pretty early and pretty late, but not quite 24-hours.
You should realize that I'm a pizza fan from the '60s in the Bronx, where as a boy I was treated to that super-thin pizza smothered in oil and served on wax paper. Paula Pizza, on 161 St, is still there!
I was on a Z train going to Parsons during the PM rush hour once, and I noticed that the "Manhattan Bound" J trains were pretty crowded with passengers transferring off the "E" at Sutphin to go to the outer Jamaica Ave stations on the J/Z (this is what I noticed at stations past Woodhaven on the EL). Those city bound "J"'s looked almost as crowded as the Z that I was on that JUST CAME from the City. I remember thinking that they should let those passengers coming FROM Sutphin ride the "Z" trains also that were going to the East New York yard anyway (those run without passengers after they make their run from Broad to Parsons!! Tony
Thanks for posting that information. Interesting commuting patterns here...
I never understood why they would deadhead the trains going to the yard, like the Z train. If the Z is going to ENY andyway, why not take passengers and end at ENY? the train is going there anyway.
It saves a whole crew. The T/O that takes it in is a switchman not a road T/O and of course there is no C/R.
Plus you can't just dump people at Alabama so you would have to use Chauncy middle. Chauncy middle as a yard move may plug service and the like to keep it free for reroutes.
These seems like midtown or uptown riders taking an express service to an area that could utilize the Essex/6th Ave route for a single SEAT fast ride, instead of multi-standing rides.
The J-E-F zigzag makes the Winfiels spur to Canarsie look good for nort/south Queens/Kings travel. There's a lot of xfer points along the route.
avid
Many people in my school who come from Brooklyn end up having to take the J(Z) to Sutphin, the E two stops to Union Turnpike, and then reverse and go back to Van Wyck Blvd. Nuts.
It is pretty convoluted, isn't it? Of course, you couldn't do it at all before..
Couldn't one just take the Q44 bus from Sutphin Blvd? Much simpler.
:-) Andrew
Exactly, they let these Malloy boys get girls in the school and they get dumb.
I have to take an even bigger zig-zag route to Shea Stadium (J, E, 7). But the system should be configured for daily Manhattan/outer boro commutes, as this is the primary reason for a subway system to begin with.
January 26,2002, through October 27, 2002, "On Track: Transit and the American City" Exhibition at the National Building Museum; this exhibit, sponsored by Metro, the museum, and other supporters, features an interactive display about transportation in the United States from the early days of transportation until now. The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority is prominently featured in the exhibition as well as other transit agencies from around the country. The exhibit showcases the ways in which public transportation has shaped the geographical and social landscape of this country.
Funny how it ends on the IRT's 98th anniversary, which I am sure is purely coincidential. -Nick
We all know great Car Inspectors 'eat their Wheaties' thankyouverrrymuch. Hope they put something on the internet...nothing like getting stuck on a train to see a train exibit. CI Peter
saw that today on the 2 coupled to a 66??-66??
These are the latest cars, 6800's are somewhere on the property as well.
i think 6800series are testing
You mean 6791-95/6601-05 together? They been coupled together since Tuesday & they could be break up by this weekend with diffrent trains.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
How exciting that they could break up!!!! Do they have their respective blue strips under their numbers??? The greatest love beyond between R142 trainsets is the love of the pigeons who make them home. CI Peter
#6791-#6795/#6601-#6605 doesn't have blue strips under the numbers.
Peace
David J.
i saw it agin this moring.also saw a 6786-6790paired with a 65??-65??
That means they're TBU A+. CI Peter
Where can I download these files? The MSN communities site no longer has them for download (what a shame).
If you need the ones from the MSN site, you can email me for they are no longer there... (or as you guys say)
i dunno if TA wants to make the E to 179 permanent. But i did see signs hanging up all over. not to mention i have ridden a E to 179, not to mention, on the map it says that some Es go to 179. Anyways if they do make it permanent the least they can do is make it exp. and make it easier to tell which is going where. like E diamond to 179 E circle to jamaica center. I am not sure, but i did see the signal at parsons and hillside middle track say Green over green. Does this mean they began running express?
The E trains to/from 179th Street are on the schedule, making them as "permanent" as anything is in New York's subway system.
David
Doea this mean that service to Jamaica Center is reduced? Or did they add extra E trains to serve 179?
Just a few extras operating in the rush hour. I am sure that if they made the E as permanent at 179 like they did before the Archer Ave. line opening in 1989, they would put another line there. May be add the Q by operating via the 63rd St. line from 57/7. I'm sure you won't see this happening for a while, but you never know. R68's permanent through Queens into Archer, hey that could happen too.
If it ever does happen, it probably won't be at least until the Manhattan Bridge is fully open again.
Jamaica Center and Sutphin Blvd. are far too busy for the TA to even consider reducing E service. Not in the range of realistic possibilities.
Perhaps increasing J/Z service to 16 TPH, like it was in the mid 1990's, would ease the E load somewhat.
That is true IF (a mighty big IF) people can be convinced to take the J/Z instead of the E. I'm very much in favor of a marketing campaign to try to accomplish that goal.
David
>> That is true IF (a mighty big IF) people can be convinced to take the J/Z instead of the E. I'm very much in favor of a marketing campaign to try to accomplish that goal. <<
It will take more than a marketing campaign. Experienced riders know that the J and Z are the most pokey slow trains imaginable. Maybe if they were free-- or maybe if they were put underground and straightened...
And how busy, precisely, would that be?
If the numbers are comparable to those on the (better-served) 179th Street branch, as posted here, service is a lot better per capita than on some other lines on which the TA has expressed no interest (to my knowledge) in improving service.
I don't have figures handy, but you can get them from the TA. I recall the TA working to expand the bus bay area at Jamaica Center recently. That place, from first hand experience, is a zoo in the morning, with buses from everywhere pulling up and pouring people directly into the subway like a dumptruck raising its bed. I've been on more than one RTS which had standing room only (and not much of that) and emptied into the station. The Nassau buses come in with pretty full loads in the morning, too.
Not that it really lets up during the day that much.
I don't deny that the two station are very busy -- I'm just challenging your assertion that they're so busy that the TA couldn't even consider reducing service.
Right now, the stations see about 24 tph in Manhattan-bound subway service (12 tph on each of the E and J/Z) and about 15 tph on the LIRR. The subway service is split between 600-foot trains and 480-foot trains, all to B Division dimensions; I have no clue how large LIRR trains are. In other words -- Jamaica gets a ton of service.
Now, we don't have a passenger count, so I can't really take the argument any further. However, very few stations even approach that level of service. I strongly suspect that there are IRT local stations, on my home line and others, that have even greater passenger counts but have much less service (putting aside the WTC changes, anywhere from 12 to 25 tph or thereabouts, and that's of 510-foot narrow trains). Last I heard (again, putting aside the WTC changes), the TA has no plans at this point to increase service on any IRT lines; in fact, a few hundred cars, some of which would be useful to keep around to allow for service increases, are being dumped in the water.
LIRR M-1, M-3 and the upcoming M-7 equipment are all 85' in length....now you know how large they are!! :-)
And how long is a full train?
They should run the "R" to Jamaica Center and run the "E" to 179th.
wayne
And where do They get the cars?
I've proposed running the F out of Jamaica Center at 12 trains an hour and the E out of 179th Street at 18 trains an hour. That would be 3 more trains through 53rd Street than we've got now (with everything on a given route coming from/going to the same place), which should be enough (I've been told that the service plan in place now is workable when everything goes right -- which admittedly doesn't happen very often -- with E trains packed, but pretty much everybody who wants to be able to board one able to get on).
David
Ithought the reasoning behind the F not going to Jamaica center was becasue the to lines crossed[F,J] at the lowwer east side and the Ta didnt think it made much sense if you were going to lower Manhattan[where in 1988 they wanted to convince you to go if you were going to use the new subway]
That was indeed the reasoning in 1988. It is no longer 1988, and perhaps a fresh look needs to be taken at the situation.
David
So they cross. Big deal. The J and Z still don't go to Midtown.
Excellent idea. As I've stated a while back, I do not like the idea of some E's going to 179 in the rush while most go to Parsons/Archer. No matter how many announcements are made, with a good PA by a conductor with accentless perfect english, some passengers will be on the wrong train. If all E's would go to 179 and all F's go to Parsons/Archer, sure there would be initial confusion, but in the long run it would be a much better service plan. Additonally, since there is a better chance of a late F because the longer the trip the better the chance is for lateness, a relay for the F beyond the station would no longer be necessary.
You're joking, right?
The thousands of southeastern Queens residents who have to endure a train/bus transfer at Jamaica Center would scream bloody murder, as they should.
A more reasonable solution would be to swap the E and F in Jamaica, running all E service to 179th at 15 TPH, and the F to Jamaica Center at 12 TPH.
That's good at the north end, but then the Culver Line gets cut to 12 TPH too. Becuase the F line is longer and would save equipment, maybe 3 V's per hour get extended to Kings Highway.
From the TA website, the maximum peak direction headways on the F line in Brooklyn is 12 TPH. The F train is always unbalanced, with more service operating in the peak-direction from Queens than from Brooklyn. My idea would merely balance the service out.
I'd wait until the V could be extended to Church Ave anyway.
they didn't run extra trains. the situation is there are 23 E trains. All 23 cannot all go into jamaica center. When i rode the E to go to college because the E is closest to home, i noticed in evening rush hours E trains had to wait at Sutphin because soo many are always in Jamaica Center. like 2 Es are in and another one had to wait at sutphin till one left. Now what they did is i believe they sent either 3 or 4 Es to 179, RUSH HOURS ONLY. so those special Es go to 179 and when i noticed that in evening rush hours, there was hardly any waiting at sutphin. like i caught the train monday thru friday and friday was the only day we waited. monday thru thursday we entered sutphin and got the lineup before the Conductor could even open the doors. so if u wanna call it a reduction in service u can, but i say its a smart idea. Because if u are a Motorman or Conductor u hardly have enuf time to secure the train grab ur equipment and get out before the next crew arrives and train leaves. So many times do Es enter Jamaica center dump, passengers DETRAIN, and then board, and then boom within a minute or too that same train i came in on is pulling out!
so E to 179 is smart and needs to be permanent.
23 E trains? In an hour? By whose count? I'm staring at the timetable as we speak. It's 15 trains an hour at best.
There are 26 trainSETS assigned to E service.
David
That damned switch alignment has cost me plenty of quick transfers to the J at Supthin, as the E backs up outside of the station.
It's as permanent as anything else is. The E is now running 18 tph, but Jamaica Center can only handle 15 tph. The remaining 3 tph has to go somewhere.
I don't think there are diamond-E signs. Just read the signs and listen to the announcements, and if your E goes the wrong way, backtrack and try again.
The signal you saw only indicates how the switch was set. It doesn't mean trains are actually running over it -- even if the track isn't in regular use, the switch needs to be set to something!
No, the E is now running 15 trains an hour on weekdays (with 15 Fs). Jamaica Center handles 12, and 179th Street handles 3. Prior to Deember 17, on weekdays there were 12 Es and 18 Fs.
David
Thanks for the correction; I apologize for the misinformation. (I knew it had something to do with 3 tph.)
Why is that Jamaica Center can only handle 15 TPH?
I asked that 3 weeks ago. The cross-over isn't right at Parsons/Archer; it's much closer to Sutphin, the previous station.
So there's a much longer period of time than is normal where only 1 train can be coming in or going out. Evidently this location of the crossover is because Parsons/Archer wasn't supposed to be the end station.
Maybe the TA could retro-fit a crossover onto the tracks curving away from Jamaica Center - of course, if they are in separate tunnels, that could get expensive.
Could a cross-over be built east of the station and trains relay on the stub tracks east of that ?
It would make sense to me to do that, so that the station could handle a bit more capacity, but I doubt the MTA would bother with that
Not when you have so much capacity at 179th St. It's probably cheaper to just divert some E's here and keep Archer Ave at 12 TPH. Personally, I think Archer Ave, with all of the never-anticipated bus/subway transfers when the line was designed in the 1960's, could use those extra 3 trains currently running to/from 179th.
Some of those transfers were anticipated; the station was designed from the outset with bus bays. But the MTA didn't imagine just how many people would take advantage of the free Metrocard bus-rail transfers. It was a runaway success beyond the MTA's expectations.
the MTA didn't imagine just how many people would take advantage of the free Metrocard bus-rail transfers.
Wasn't Archer Avenue designed LONG before MetroCard was even imagined?
Yes.
You're right. My post was not written very well. I should have said that MTA underestimated demand for the transfers - and one factor was that MTA didn't predict just how popular Metrocard - and free transfers - would be.
Maybe they should divert some of the Archer buses back to Hillside Avenue to equalize the pain.
Good idea, but 179th St is already crowded with it's own bus transferees, and the loss of the E train after Archer Ave. opened would preclude the dumping of even more of these people at 179th St. or 169th St.
Some of those transfers were anticipated; the station was designed from the outset with bus bays. But the MTA didn't imagine just how many people would take advantage of the free Metrocard bus-rail transfers. It was a runaway success beyond the MTA's expectations
Exactly. The amount of transfers here ballooned after the elimination of 2 fare zones. All those dollar van riders now use the subway.
That's a good idea, although it'll mean a loss of some of the storage ability east of Jamaica Center. But a crossover east of JC (like the one at 205th St on the D) should drastically increase the capacity of Jamaica Center. Unfortunatley, the capacity couldn't be matched at the WTC stub.
The stub tracks at WTC were supposed to really be part of the IND Second system, which did not get built due to many things which are detailed elsewhere. The opportunity now exists to make that into a connection into Brooklyn in its own right, so that the ride from Brooklyn into Manhattan would not be as crowded as it is now.
Current Cranberry St. tunnel service is adequate for the Fulton St. line. If it wasn't, the opportunity exists to increase it without building new tunnels.
But, if they sent the E to Euclid and C to Metropolitan Avenue, it's a non-issue.
The Cranberry St tunnel would become jammed at Chambers St if both the A and E were to use it at current headways. Sending the C to the eastern division is pure fantasy. I like to consider realistic options.
Aren't both A and E 15 tph? Are you saying A is more, or that the tunnel can't actually handle the 30 tph that tracks are supposed to handle?
A+C is about 15 trains an hour (sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less) in the rush. E is 15 trains an hour by itself. In any case, extending the E along Fulton Street without truncating the C would require a TREMENDOUS number of cars; even extending the E while truncating the C would cost cars, since the E runs longer trains, and more of them.
David
Certainly the idea floated required a lot more cars. I was just asking about why you thought the tunnels couldn't handle them. The proposal was A and E to Euclid and beyond, but C over the Williamsburgh Bridge.
I was basing my logjam at Chambers theory on my experiences during the WTC stub switch replacement reroute 2 years ago. A & E trains crawled from Canal St. to Hoyt St. Most of the E trains ran nearly empty on Fulton St due to excessive service.
If you want to run both lines into Brooklyn, the A would have to be cut.
The impression I'm getting is that the service on the Fulton IND is considerably less than what would be capacity. You're saying the A and the C, collectively, at the height of rush, total no more than 15 tph? This would mean A trains at 8 min intervals; I recall 8th Av service as being somewhat better than this.
During the rush hours, the C runs at 8 TPH, the A at 12-15 TPH, according to the TA wesbite.
Yeah, there I go again. I was looking at southbound (since the E was in the mix and southbound is the E's primary direction in the AM rush). Northbound the A has 17 trains leaving Jay Street between 8 and 9 AM, and the C has 8 trains leaving Jay Street in that period. The total is 25 trains, which leaves room for more service, but not a great deal of room (claims of a signal design spec of 40 trains an hour notwithstanding).
David
You could add some C service, but if you replaced it with the E, with the 17 A trains, that's 32 TPH, a very tight squeeze and a guaranteed logjam.
The A & E co-existed for 30-35 years thru those tunnels when there were 18 E's per hour and as many A's. There will be enough to equipment to do it once the R143's are in service.
True, but the A ran less frequently then as it does now, and because both the A & E ran express in Manhattan, no delaying switch at Canal St. was necessary.
I've experienced A/E service into Brooklyn under modern conditions, and the service was slow & excessive.
Nothing is permanent in the TA. I can't tell you how many times service plans have changed for a whole variety of reasons: MannyB and WillyB closures, new routes opening, N/R terminal switch. Even ones' employment, even if he/she lives to see a pension, is a temporary one under the grand scheme of things.
I'm employed as a bus operator by MTA Long Island Bus, and do vacation reliefs, which allows me to drive new routes weekly and sometimes daily. The route I drove today, the N24 (Jamaica-Mitchel Field), has a good number of NYCTA employees, both active and retired, using it. Today, I met an ex-motorman, 86 years of age, who started with the BMT in 1944 and retired 33 years later. He mentioned that he operated on all three divisions, and still has all his tools, and some other memorabilia. We exchanged phone numbers and will be in contact shortly. Perhaps then we can get some definitive answers to some of the questions being asked in this newsgroup. If anyone has any questions, please e-mail them to me, and I'll ask them when I meet with this gentleman, hopefully soon.
Also, in rearranging my basement, I discovered a number of copies of a book, sold out over ten years ago, which I had published on the Newark City Subway in 1985, titled Traction Extra #1, The City Subway, Newark's Best Kept Secret. You may view the covers and some sample pages of the book at : http://members.aol.com/joepcc699/TE1.jpg
I'm offering it to this group's members on a first-come, first saved basis. A brief description of the book follows. Its price is $34.95 per copy plus shipping ($7.00 UPS, $3.90 USPS Priority), in the United States. I'll ship it anywhere, but shipping costs will be higher.
Traction Extra #1: The City Subway, Newark's Best Kept Secret. Published in 1986 to commemorate 50th Anniversary of the Newark City Subway in New Jersey. This is a brand new, not previously owned, book. Limited edition of only 1,000 copies; it will not be reprinted. We are the publisher, and are offering the few remaining new copies of this beautiful book that are available; they may be purchased only directly from us. The photos shown below are of the front and rear covers covers and selected inside pages. This book would be a superb birthday or any occasion gift for the trolley enthusiast and can be shipped worldwide. 64 pages, glossy stock, perfect bound, laminated cardstock covers, 132 black and white and 24 color photos, five maps, roster, statistics, and photo sections from the Morris Canal (in which the subway was built), the subway's construction, testing of the new line, beginning of service, each of the lines feeding into the subway (Orange, Central and Bloomfield), arrival and operation of the PCC cars, photos of sister PCC cars in other cities, the subway as it existed in 1985, and pictures of the City Subway's 50th Anniversary celebration. This is an extremely hard-to-find book and the a nice addition to the library for any traction enthusiast.
If interested, please contact me at: JoePCC699@AOL.com
Thank you.
Joe Saitta
This is an fresh article from the AP on Amtrak's future....
Amtrak would lose ownership of tracks and stations under panel's plans
Eds: INSERTS graf 13, Amtrak spokesman, with Amtrak declining comment, statement from railroad passenger group
By LAURENCE ARNOLD
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Amtrak would be forced to relinquish ownership of tracks and stations, bridges and tunnels under proposals by a federal panel studying the financially troubled passenger railroad.
The Amtrak Reform Council meets Friday to finalize recommendations it will deliver to Congress on Feb. 7. The recommendations hold no legal weight, but will help frame the debate on Amtrak's future.
The three proposals under consideration differ in how much -- and how fast -- they would open Amtrak's current monopoly to competition from private companies. But all three scenarios envision transferring ownership of Amtrak's tracks and stations, said Tom Till, the council's executive director.
The new owner would likely be one or more new subsidiaries of the National Rail Passenger Corporation -- an existing federal entity that, until now, has been synonymous with Amtrak. Under the council's plans, Amtrak would act only as an operating company under the federal corporation.
Eventually, ownership of the stations and track could be transferred to states or cities.
Amtrak owns 730 miles of track, mostly in the Northeast Corridor between Boston and Washington, plus in Michigan. It owns stations along the Northeast Corridor, plus Union Station in Chicago.
The tracks and stations Amtrak owns represent just a tiny fraction its network. Amtrak serves 500 stations over 22,000 route miles. Most of the tracks are owned by freight railroads, which receive usage fees from Amtrak.
Amtrak was not originally designed to own real estate. It took possession of the Northeast Corridor assets in 1976 from the estate of Penn Central Railroad, as part of the creation of Conrail.
The railroad uses its assets to raise revenue. It plans to build a hotel inside Baltimore's Penn Station and an office tower or hotel near 30th Street Station in Philadelphia.
In addition, Amtrak expected to raise $33 million last year from letting telecommunications companies use cables and install antennas along its route through the Northeast.
But the assets also impose substantial costs. The reform council estimates that it takes $800 million to $1 billion each year to keep the Northeast Corridor in a state of good repair. It says Amtrak has spent just $71 million on Northeast Corridor maintenance each of the past two years.
A majority of the 11-member reform council has long said that Amtrak should lose its real-estate holdings and focus exclusively on running trains. Amtrak officials have shown little enthusiasm for the idea.
Amtrak spokesman Bill Schulz declined to comment Thursday. The National Association of Railroad Passengers, which generally supports Amtrak, said recommendations to separate Amtrak from its non-rail assets "bear a disturbing similarity to the early steps in the process that led to Britain's current railway crisis."
A 1997 law gave Amtrak until Dec. 2, 2002, to begin operating without federal subsidies, and it created the reform council to monitor the railroad's progress. A majority of council members concluded last month that Amtrak will not achieve that goal.
That finding meant the council had 90 days to draw up a plan for a restructured national rail system. The council wants to take much or all of Amtrak's authority and divide it among states or private companies.
Amtrak posted a cash loss of $405 million in the first eight months of 2001 and has consumed more than $25 billion in subsidies since its inception in 1971.
The council is steering clear from discussions of cutting routes.
"The ultimate size and structure of the system is going to be determined by the Congress," Till said.
A major topic of discussion at Friday's meeting will be who will operate intercity trains. Under one scenario, Amtrak would continue to run trains but would begin reporting to a government agency on route and service decisions.
Under a second scenario, private companies would submit bids for certain routes. Government subsidies would be available as long as they are lower than those Amtrak is receiving.
A third scenario envisions a gradual transition from current Amtrak management to a system of competitive bids.
All three scenarios leave open the possibility that states would take over management of train routes that affect them.
------
On the Net:
Amtrak Reform Council http://www.amtrakreformcouncil.gov
Amtrak: http://amtrak.com/
(Copyright 2002 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
Check out this article in yhe NYPress:
http://www.nypress.com/15/2/news&columns/first.cfm
For those who don't know, the NYPress is one of those free weekly newspapers available in newsboxes in Manhattan. The Village Voice is another. One time they did a quick highlight of nycsubway.org and used the logo at the time (and they didn't ask permission).
Did they contact the Guinness Book?
:0)
> The Village Voice is another. One time they did a quick
> highlight of nycsubway.org and used the logo at the time
Hey, someone remembers that!
-dave
I worked overtime earlier today. Actually, on the midnight tour and I worked the G line. It was quite an experience since I haven't worked off the A or C lines in some time. Let me say, it was enlightening to say the least.
The G is running in four-car sets instead of the usual six. I found out that was done in order to accomodate the new V line, much like what was done to the C (a whole 8 car set of R32s was taken from the C line and sent into Queens). People were packed in like sardines trying to squeeze into those four cars. It was a sight to see.
Second, Most of the station stop car markers are out of whack. Trains were stopping all the way at the end of the platform when the exit was clearly at the other end. People had to run upwards of up to four car lengths to get on the train. Most were angry about that askingme why the train stopped at the other end of the station (like I could answer that). I asked my partner about that and he replied that train operators could get into trouble for not stopping at the correct stop car marker, so they had to stop there even if it meant people had to run for the trains.
What have they done to the G line? It's a mere shell of what it used to be. It scares me because if they can do this to the G, what does that mean for the other lines that are not considered high priority, like the C? Will my C be shortened to six cars? Will the OPTO ax fall on it as well? As far as transit is concerned, one never knows.
What have they done to the G line? It's a mere shell of what it used to be.
One word: Shuttleizing.
The G has always been the stepchild of the system. Now after December it is the Orphan!
little orphan annie ??
Shouded it be Little Orphan Gannie!
Robert
oh no !!
should i video it next summer ??
lol !
If it was elevated, it would have never survived the 1970's.
But the G needs more cars ASAP.
Spotting point: When it's cut to TWO cars, opto, you'll know it ain't the Brighton line anymore ...
What next, a piggy back ride down the tracks?
Two words ... "hand trucks" ... "This is a Brooklyn bound B train making stops wherever the hell I feel like, watch the closing doors, bing bong." Pump 'em if ya got 'em ...
Once cars start filtering off from ENY and to Coney Island, perhaps Jamaica will get Coney's R32's, and those cars in turn will be assigned to the G. I have seen the conditions on the train, this train must get at least 6 or 8 cars.
i was complaining about this before it happened. I forget who but someone on here said '4 cars is more than enough for the G'. ...riiiight.
when someone slips running for the train, or gets hit by one after running and falling off a platform, then theere will be hell to pay for the short trains/long platforms, OPTO, shit service, etc.
I hope that 143' is done with it's testing, cuz some cars out of ENY might be quite helpful elsewhere!
I wont be suprised if down the road, the G is eliminated and is replaced by a B61 limited bus.
I wont be suprised if down the road, the G is eliminated and is replaced by a B61 limited bus.
I doubt that very much. The (G) is entirely underground, apart from Smith-9th which it shrares with the (F). Plus it has quite respectable ridership.
:-) Andrew
I wont be suprised if down the road, the G is eliminated and is replaced by a B61 limited bus.
I doubt that very much. The (G) is entirely underground, apart from Smith-9th which it shrares with the (F). Plus it has quite respectable ridership.
And remember all the ruckus a few years back when the Transit Authority proposed closing the Franklin Avenue Shuttle and replacing it with upgraded bus service. The Shuttle had much lower ridership than the G, probably not much of a time advantage over bus service, and was in very poor physical condition, but that didn't stop a big outcry against the closing plan.
I predict that the G will be around for a long time to come.
The G statement by "SubBus" was obviously tongue-in-cheek. Ridership can be quite heavy on the G at times.
Thank you, Zman. It was a joke. Everyone knows that will never happen. The G will continue to live on and on and on and on...........
You know, Mike, at this point it wouldn't surprise me in the least. They wanted to do that to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle at one point. Looks like it might happen soon to the G.
That's absurd, abandon the whole G line? Ain't gonna happen.
Let's not get melodramatic.
The (G) is an underrated line. For a local it's relatively fast, and I think it's quite useful for travel within "the boroughs". It would be great if only the wait times weren't so long.
Cutting the (G) back during peak hours was perhaps a necessary evil. While its ridership is fairly high, it's not as great as the number of Queens Blvd riders who need to go to/from Manhattan. In this case the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the (relatively) few. Restoring it for off-hours was a good compromise.
:-) Andrew
I like the B-61, and definitely think it could use a Limited. But the G is important and usefull service. If the 1 is getting re-built, run it under the water to Red Hook, and connect it to the G there, instead of it's current dead end at Smith-9th. Then it could terminate at Court Sq. 24/7. Yeah, I know, A div, B div...it would never happen.
Moving platforms for every IRT door
I have no problem with them cutting back service into Queens during peak hours, Andrew. But why four car trains? Don't they know that ridership in Brooklyn didn't change? They took those cars off the G (like the old saying goes "robbing Peter to pay Paul") and put them on the V line that nobody's using. They should have used six cars on the V to determine if it would be a success and if so then use 8 cars.
Well, I do agree with you that 4-car tains won't cut it on the (G).
:-) Andrew
Weren't G headways decreased slightly to make up for the shorter trains?
And where do you get the idea that nobody's using the V?
G headways were indeed tightened during the "school rush" to compensate for the shorter trains.
David
I say nobody's using the V, David, because from what I've seen, people in Queens are preferring to wait for an E as opposed to riding the V. People have this idea that "express" means faster, so they tend to wait for an express train to get them their quicker. In reality, as was explained in a different topic, "express" does not necessarily mean faster; it just means "less stops". In my opinion, no one's giving up the E to give an extra five or six minutes extra commute to ride the V.
For example, if you lived at the Forest Hills station in Queens and needed to ride the train Lexington Avenue and 53rd Street in Manhattan, which train would you take? The E which is more crowded but requires less travel time or the V, which guarantees you a seat and lots of space but takes more time to reach your destination?
I say nobody's using the V, David, because from what I've seen, people in Queens are preferring to wait for an E as opposed to riding the V. People have this idea that "express" means faster, so they tend to wait for an express train to get them their quicker. In reality, as was explained in a different topic, "express" does not necessarily mean faster; it just means "less stops". In my opinion, no one's giving up the E to give an extra five or six minutes extra commute to ride the V.
Oh. In other words, you say nobody's using the V because you don't see why anyone would use the V -- not because nobody's actually using the V. An intriguing approach, but it doesn't always lead to the correct conclusions.
You've forgotten about some people. You've forgotten about the people who don't mind riding for a few minutes longer in exchange for a seat. You've forgotten about the people who prefer to be on a moving train than to be waiting on the platform for an express. And you've forgotten about the people -- I realize they're an unpopular bunch on this board -- who live and work at local stops. Or did you expect them to jump onto moving E's?
I have seen real, live people on the V. I wasn't paying close attention, so I don't know where they were going. I don't know why they picked the V as opposed to any other line. All I can say is that they were there, on the V.
For example, if you lived at the Forest Hills station in Queens and needed to ride the train Lexington Avenue and 53rd Street in Manhattan, which train would you take? The E which is more crowded but requires less travel time or the V, which guarantees you a seat and lots of space but takes more time to reach your destination?
Woah, hold it. What gives you the idea that I'm at Forest Hills? Maybe I'm at a local stop. Maybe I'm at Roosevelt. Maybe I'm at Queens Plaza. Did you notice that not everyone comes from Forest Hills?
But I'll play your game, if you like. What time of day is it? Am I in a hurry or do I have some time to kill? Are 60th, 63rd, or 42nd close enough? Rush hours, the E runs frequently enough that waiting for the E is probably the fastest route, although I'd probably take an F to Roosevelt if an F came before the E, just to increase my options. Other times, I'd take whichever express came first. If an E, I'm all set. If an F, I'd get off at Roosevelt and wait there. If a V came next, I'd probably take it.
But so what? None of this applies if I'm not at Forest Hills or I'm not going to 53/Lex. Not every Queens commuter shares your exact commute.
You've forgotten about the people who don't mind riding for a few minutes longer in exchange for a seat.
"A few minutes longer?" I get on the R/V at Woodhaven Blvd. Twice, I've transferred to the E at Roosevelt Ave. The first time, I arrived at Queens Plaza the same time as the V I had left; the second, my E pulled into QP just in time to see the R I was on pull out.
Why does the E go so slow? Are you sure it was the same train and not the next?
Why does the E go so slow?
Timers, door-holders, and merging with the V after QP; take your pick.
Are you sure it was the same train and not the next?
I kept track of the car number.
"And where do you get the idea that nobody's using the V?"
One afternoon recently I rode the outbound 'V' from 23/Ely to Woodhaven. We left a substantial number of people on the platforms at Steinway, Grand and Woodhaven who apparently wouldn't board this train- out of unfamiliarity, perhaps?
I informed some people at Woodhaven that they could've boarded the 'V', since both services make the same stops and both end at Continental. Their response was along the lines of, "Oh, no, we'll only take the 'G'(!) or 'R'."
Well, I TRIED-
I had to reassure a woman at 53/Lex that the V train she had hesitantly boarded would take her to 23/6. She got confused by the electronic signs, which flash both 6 AV EXP and 2 AV. When I realized she was afraid it was a 2nd Avenue train, I nearly cracked up -- but she's absolutely right that the signage is ambiguous and could use some "to" and "via" legends.
As far as I know, in order to compensate for 4 car trains, G headways were actually decreased during the rush hours. And service reliability should be better since it does not have to compete with the R trains on Queens Blvd. and rerouted to the local track E & F trains when the express track is blocked for any reason. I could see the first and last cars on the G being overcrowded however if the passengers continue to wait for the trains on the entire platform rather than in the area where it actually stops.
I told you so, I told you so. G ridership is really under-rated and under evaluated. how about some R-68`s for the G? The line needs cars right now.
A small fire in the Ivy City Yard damaged one car according to the Washington Post on page B3 of today's paper. Not too many details, the article was about 4 lines. Cause under investigation.
I cant seem to get anything to fix this error.
"Error5 Invalid Call or argument" its on the BVE FAQ site section labled "error5" but I DONT READ JAPANESE!!!! anyone help me? anyone with same problem? happens on all routes. at different times. Gives choice to continue or quit, if you continue the sim proceeds but the error pops up again. And I cant press yes 30 times a second. ARGHH. at least with MSTS they responded to my mail and when I called them the techincian called back but you get what you pay for. Anyone please help!!!!!! Many thanks.
there is a fun Japanese-to-English translator at http://babelfish.altavista.com. Be warned that Japanese grammar is almost the reverse of English grammar, so you have to have quite an imagination to decipher the output. It's better than learning Japanese, no?
--
Ian Penovich
My friend had this problem. You need to turn down your DirectX sound acceleration. Turn it down notch by notch until the error message goes away.
Go to the DirectX configuratior which is in (i think) c:\Program Files\DirectX\
I think the file is called setup.exe
Go to the sound tab and a slider should be there.
Hope this helps. :D
oy thats exactly what the Japanese had to say. Thank you much. both of you.
I only get that when something's wrong with the route file. What route are you using?
Just like my subject line title suggests, I am looking for pictures of in and all around Penn Station, the main floor, the platforms, even the shops in there, anything you got.
I also want pictures of the NJ Transit, particularly the Dover stop on the Morristown Line and also....whatever stop goes by Rugers University (I can't remember the name for the life of me).
Anythign you got, you can post a link here, link me by email or ask me questions to pdernerjr@hotmail.com
If you are emailing me pictures, please send them to bigphil395@aol.com
Thank you all in advance.
I NEED this!! HELP ME! HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, RuTgers University's main campus is located in New Bruswick. Here is a link that may help:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/commuter/njt/index.html
Good luck, and Calm down!!!
New BruNswick!
Today was the last day of the 30 day clock. Anyone know if they offically passed the test? If so, what is the next step? Holding at ENY for more testing? When will they be allowed to enter revenue service?
I'm gonna have a few hours this Monday to ride the subways in Washington DC. Any recommendations as to what lines to take in terms of riding pleasure per minute :) I'll probably have between 3 and 5 hours. Will I be able to get a map at the first station I come to? I'm not familiar at all with the system. Last time i rode it was maybe 10 years ago. Will I be able to make free transfers to ride most of the day on one fare? I should go to their website and look at it. Thanks for any info....
Most any station should have a map of the system at it. I'm most familliar with the Union Station/Amtrak (Red Line) and the Rosslyn, VA (Orange Line) stations. If you have that much time on your hands, buy a $5 one-day pass. That way, you'll probably spend less on fares and you won't have to deal with the annoying "Exitfare" or guessing how much it is from point "A" to point "B". Union Station/Amtrak is bad at rush hour and Metro Center can be very confusing to any tourist from Connecticut like me. If you need more info, log onto www.wmata.com (Metro's website).
I too would recommend the $5 all-day pass (only valid after 9:30am on weekdays). In general the fares are based on distanced traveled (you have to use your farecard to get both in and out), so the all-day pass will be best if you want to leave the system at all.
I would think that you would like to see the impressive multi-story transfer stations downtown (L'Enfant Plaza, Gallery Place-Chinatown, and Metro Center). The Red line is probably the busiest and contains sone long and fast underground runs (between Dupont Circle and Bethesda) and some of the deepest transit stations in North America (like Forest Glen and Wheaton). The yellow line from downtown to Huntington (past Pentagon and National Airport) is an interesting ride, including the Potomac River bridge and the unique station at the hillside terminus at Huntington.
Enjoy your trip!
Have you taken the Red Line past Bethesda? The whole Red Line is awesome, check out my reviews of all the lines on my website at www.orenstransitpage.com.
However you can get there, ride the Yellow line from Virginia towards the District over the Potomac River bridge. You get a spectacular view of the city. There are also points in Alexandria (Yellow and/or Blue Line) where Metro runs outside near pleasant scenery and CSX ROW. Other than that, the rest of the system is very monotonous, with all the cars and stations' decor so similar you sometimes can't tell where you are but for the signs. Not to knock The Metro, though. It's just that that's where I would make sure to ride if I had limited time.
Study the Washington DC Metro Line by Line pages.
--Mark
Be advised they are working on the Red, Green, and Orange lines this weekend.
That said, maps are available at all the stations. My reccomendations for intersting lines are as follows:
Red to Shady Grove
Orange to Vienna
Blue and Yellow to Franconia-Springfield and Huntington, respectively
Green to either end
My line by line reviews are available at www.orenstransitpage.com. Once you are at the Departure Board, click Washington, DC. The review is towards the bottom.
If you want to stick close to the center of town, the Red and Green Lines make an interesting loop (go to Fort Totten, change for the other one). Be sure to check out Metro Center, L'Enfant Plaza, and Gallery Place as well.
If you have any more questions, feel free to e-mail me.
thanks for the help!
If you wanna get off at any station, get off at Dupont Circle. Interesting, pretty neighborhood. walk up Connecticut, R, and 18th streets, and head up to Adams Morgan. walk West on calvert over the massive Ellington Bridge, and end your walking tour at the Woodley Park Station, which is a short half-block up the hill from Calvert on Connecticut.
I'm a life-long New Yorker (Long Island, specifically) who has been riding Metro since its opening in 1976 (my wife has relatives in Northern VA whom we visit frequently). Start at Metro Center and follow this itinerary that will show much variety:
Take Orange Line to Vienna - then return to Rosslyn (same platform). Interesting ride in the median of I-66. When returning to Rosslyn transfer to Blue Line towards Franconia-Springfield (if you have time and have an unlimited $5 farecard, take the escalator up and out of the station - quite a ride. Plenty of food places in Rosslyn also right in the station vicinity). Get off Blue train at National Airport and wait for Yellow line to Huntington. Go to Huntington and then return to DC on the Yellow line, crossing the Potomac on a long bridge parallel to Amtrak's bridge and I-395. Go to the last stop - Mt Vernon Square, and wait for a Green Line train towards Greenbelt, where there is an adjacent MARC station. Return on the Green to Fort Totten, and transfer to the Red Line upstairs. Take train towards Shady Grove - if you have time, go all the way to Shady Grove and then return to downtown DC, or if you're pressed for time get off Red Line at Metro Center where you began. Should take about 3 hours (excluding getting out at any station and walking around) if you return directly to Metro Center on the Red Line - will take 4+ hours if you go all the way to Shady Grove and back.
You will see tunnels, both shallow and deep, viaducts, surface level lines, a long bridge, freeway medians, and interesting transfer stations (Metro Center, Fort Totten, Rosslyn). Have fun.
thanks! thats a lot of info! I probably won't have 4+ hours, but I'll try to use your itinerary as much as I can.
The Green Line has the widest variety of station types; the upper end of it (from Gallery Place to Greenbelt) is quite interesting. When in the center of town, check out the junction stations (Metro Center, Gallery Place, LEnfant Plaza).
wayne
thanks!
hey I regularly take the Montauk Branch.I would like to know the differenes including any physical ones between C1-C2-C3 bilevel Kawasaki cars on the LIRR. Where do they run each car type i know they retired the old deisel crap cars 3 years ago. Becuase i hear about different door chimes between them. I think the only ones i saw in service are C2-C3 bi level coaches. If anyone can tell me what model coaches they use now in Deisel territories. Enlighten me.
The original C-1's had 3-2 seating. The C-3's have 2-2 seating.
I don't think I ever heard of C-2's
What were the C-1, the original one on the Port jeff Branch?
Yes, They ran with the FL9AC's that are now retired and waiting their fate at Metro North's Croton East Yards. The C-1's are still sitting at the leads to Jamaica Storage Facility/Morris Park Yards. In order to operate, they need either a massive rebuild, or the FL9's again.
The C-1s were very different than the C-3(if you're a nitpicker).
1. The cut in the blue stripe went in the opposite direction as the ones on the C-3.
2. There was METROPOLITAN TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY in the middle of the stripe.
3. The exit door window had a metal bar in the middle.
4. The windows were tinted (including storm doors).
5. The windows had metal frames on the inside.
6. The floor was tan.
7. No digital signs or computerized anything.
8. Door close sound was an electric bell (like the M-1/3).
9. Bathrooms were on the southwest end of odd numbered cars (C-3s are in the northwest end) and had the blue stuff for flushing instead of water.
10.The cars were in married pairs.
11.The train smelled different.
12.Neat echo sound over the PA.
13.On the upper floor, the 3 seaters were on the south side while on the lower floor the 3 seaters were on the north side.
14.The seats were light blue in color and of an identical design to the MNRR Shoreliner II and III seats.
15.The coat hook was more round.
16.The lights on the upper level angled toward the ceiling. The bottom level was the same as the C-3s arrangement.
17.The train was dead silent most of the time (no loud ventalation system).
18.Car #s were in the 3000s, from 3001-3010 with 3005-6 used for spare parts.
19.The engines were Fl-9s 300 and 302, The engine names were Kevin Blum and Mike O'Connel (or something like that).
do the C1s run at all or are they out of service.
Out of service for now, unless either they are still up for sale, being rebuilt, or up for scrap.
>>Out of service for now, unless either they are still up for sale, being rebuilt, or up for scrap.<<
They are indeed out of service. I was told they are up for sale, but no one's buying. Wanna buy a white elephant ?
There was an idea floating around about rebuilding them as bar cars to run with the C-3s, but that was shot down. Too many big bucks.
Bill "Newkirk"
hey might as well put them in service we could use an extra train running. All that money wasted. Why are they out of out service mechinical problems? I'm guessing they were prototypes for the C3s. I dunno is it possible to link C1s- C3s together? Like how its possible to link the M1-M3 together.
>>hey might as well put them in service we could use an extra train running. All that money wasted. Why are they out of out service mechinical problems? I'm guessing they were prototypes for the C3s.<<
Yes you'r right. The C-1s were the prototypes for the C-3s
>>I dunno is it possible to link C1s- C3s together?<<
Not possible. First off, the couplers on the C-1s are the M-1 style and the couplers on the C-3s are the standard tightlock type. Next, The C-1s are wired for a different voltage (*hotel power), than the C-3s. The C-1s would have to be rewired and thats where the big bucks come into play. And that's why the LIRR has white elephants for sale!
And nobody's buying them because what commuter railroad would buy a used one of a kind trainset that operates on a different voltage than theirs and are high level platform only. That's where your white elephants come into play ! (* Hotel power is a term to describe what voltage the coach operates on. Lights,heat, A/C etc)
>>Like how its possible to link the M1-M3 together<<
M-1s and M-3s are currently being linked together as seperate trainsets. Now take an M-1 "A" car and mate it with an M-3 "B" car, that I'm not sure of. But I was told that the M-4 and M-6s that run on Metro North which are 3 car units can have the middle car removed and run as a two car set. That hasn't been done, but is capable.
Bill "Newkirk"
< The C-1s are wired for a different voltage (*hotel power), than the C-3s. >
Actually, I believe it is the MU and intercar control circuits being different, one 16v, the other 32v. The actual HEP is 480v in either case. Even if they were the same, the computers on each type of car don't speak to one another.
Like how its possible to link the M1-M3 together.
When the M-3s were purchased, they were designed to MU with M-1s. As to whether they could be linked together as one pair (if that is what you are asking), I am not aware of it having been done as yet. It would seem possible, though.
All that money wasted. Why are they out of out service Mechinical problems? I'm guessing they were prototypes for the C3s.
The C-1s were the prototypes for the C-3. When the C-3s were ordered, the order was sufficient to meet the LIRRs current and near-future needs. Much like the R-110A and R-110B, the C-1s were built to test the feasibility of the concepts to be incorporated into the C-3s. Like most test trainsets, there were little or no spare parts so 2 cars ultimately became organ donors, leaving just 8 viable cars for service. To continue running these cars in service would be short-lived until more parts were needed. Since the FL-9s that pulled them are re-assigned, the cars will have to be extensively modified or locos will need to be converted to pull the cars again. It would seem, based on that, the LIRR is actually saving money by keeping un-needed cars out of service.
Yeah Bill, I agree, but it would look very ugly with the C-3's. Metro North should give the good F's back to the LIRR since they are putting them to what I heard "on the Shelf" since they have a surplus of Genesis engines.
Neil,
The LIRR FL-9s are better off where they are at Croton North awaiting scrapping. They were very problematic and even one of the three units was cannabalized for parts. You know the LIRR track record for maintenance. A couple of the C-1s are also cannabalized for parts too. The only way out is to totally rebuild the C-1s to C-3 specs and make them compatable. BIG BUCKS !! and the LIRR is not interested anyway, not gonna happen.
Bill "Newkirk"
The LIRR FL-9's had an MDBF of aroung 1,900 miles and often caught fire, wouldn't cut-over to 3rd rail, or simply broke down. 7 identical RLW FL-9's that ran on Metro North all along ran better. It was no accident that the LIRR ones were in a Metro-North paint scheme - the LIRR had no intention of keeping them.
Had the LIRR's capital planning morons electrified to Port Jeff, we would never have had the costly fiasco of C1's ($37 M), FL-9's ($18 M), DE/DM's, etc. 10 years later and miserable service to Port Jeff, the ridership has permanently shifted away and there is now little incentive to electrify. The LIRR has done to the Port Jeff what the TA has done to the Sea Beach, and probably worse.
>>Had the LIRR's capital planning morons electrified to Port Jeff, we would never have had the costly fiasco of C1's ($37 M), FL-9's ($18 M), DE/DM's, etc. 10 years later and miserable service to Port Jeff, the ridership has permanently shifted away and there is now little incentive to electrify<<
I heard that the cost overruns associated with building the Hillside Facility was to blame with electrification of the Port Jeff branch.
Bill "Newkirk"
I am sure that once the GCT connection is opened, you will see direct service from Port Jeff to Penn Station. Truly I think that LIRR will do to Port Jeff what Metro North did to Poughkeepsie in the early 1990's with using its dual-mode engines for direct service at all times including weekends and nights. Before you guys mention anything else, yes the trains from Poughkeepsie run shuttles in the wee hours, but I think the LIRR will do the same type of thing. The Port Jeff Branch is still a very busy line to ride on.
>>I am sure that once the GCT connection is opened, you will see direct service from Port Jeff to Penn Station.<<
Not gonna happen, it seems that the Bi-level cars will not fit throught the lower level of the 63rd St tunnel. MU electrics will only clear it. I know.....OOOPS !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Not gonna happen, it seems that the Bi-level cars will not fit throught the lower level of the 63rd St tunnel. MU electrics will only clear it. I know.....OOOPS !!
Although to put this in perspective, the tunnel was specced in the 1960s when IRRC the LIRR had no bilevels.
>>Although to put this in perspective, the tunnel was specced in the 1960s when IRRC the LIRR had no bilevels.<<
And that's why we won't see any bilevels and DM-30s lounging around in the lower level of GCT !!
Bill "Newkirk"
The builders should have had the foresight of the possibilty. Not like Bi-levels were an unheard of thing back then
The builders should have had the foresight of the possibilty. Not like Bi-levels were an unheard of thing back then
Better to overbuild a bit then underbuild
Not like Bi-levels were an unheard of thing back then
Like this?
Not like Bi-levels were an unheard of thing back then ... Like this?
What years did that equipment run? On which lines?
I've always been fond of bilevels, having spent formative years on the old SP commuter train up the SF Peninsula (now the CalTrain). They didn't have nearly the height constrictions that LIRR does; those suckers were tall. But it's always seemed to me a smart way to increase capacity, not to mention a coolness factor.
Which reminds me ... I saw double-stack boxcars on the West Shore Line this weekend, up in Saugerties, NY. Reminded me that any cross-harbor freight tunnel will have to be able to handle double-stacks. I gotta assume that most of the country maxes out at that height, but I wonder what else they'd have to plan into a freight tunnel to last 100+ years? More height? Bellmouths?
BIlevel cars weren't figured into 63rd st planning because it was decided on.They weren't part of the LIRR's big future,due to the fact they had an MU[M1 train] that could travel in non-electric service.It didnt last long,as for some reason it failed.
an irony you might appreciate. Name the formerly wider guage RR whose tunnels were large enough for stacks a century later.
Yes, we're only going to see MUs in the tunnel.
The LIRR can run the dual modes from Port Jeff to Penn Station right now, but they won't and never will because the DM's are junk and everyone knows it.
Both points are incorrect and a little juvenile. I don't have the Port Jeff schedule but the 16:49 from Penn Station runs to Port Jeff. As to the DMs being junk, they have some technical problems and are somewhat underpowered, however, the majority of the engineers I've ridden with and/or talked to generally like them. Except for the feel of the old days, they generally perfer them to the GP-38s.
There is nothing incorrect or juvenile about 16 major punch list items for which they are being sent to Kentucky, including cracking frames, yaw dampers, and non-functional HVAC in the cabs with temperatures ranging from 0 to 100, in clear FRA violation.
The LIRR has no intention of thru-running any off-peak in lieu of shuttles and MU's even though though ought to be able to.
Not being able to handle over 6 cars for their 3000HP has calling them "slightly underpowered" the uderstatement of the year for which people involved in this corrupt procurement ought to be going to jail.
"The LIRR can run the dual modes from Port Jeff to Penn Station right now, but they won't and never will because the DM's are junk and everyone knows it."
I've copied your statement from the post that I replied to so there would not be any misunderstandings. The LIRR does run service directly from Port Jeff to Penn Station. Where in your statement does it say anything about weekends?
As for the rest, I object tot he term junk. I don't know how familiar you are with the DM30AC locomotives. My only experience with them are the few cab rides I have had. The information I have is from the folks who operate them on a daily basis. Each one has some criticism of the locos, the primary one is (as you have said) they are very under powered since the hotel power & traction power are derived from the 3KHP diesel engine. Despite this and despite the other problems you listed, no one I've talked to has said they are junk or they are less desirable than the GP-38s. Each of them feels that the defects are resolvable and the locos will be viable for many years. I guess we both define junk differently. As for people going to jail - if a case can be made, lock their asses up.
< 've copied your statement from the post that I replied to so there would not be any misunderstandings. The LIRR does run service directly from Port Jeff to Penn Station. Where in your statement does it say anything about weekends? >
I meant in addition to the 2 rush hour thru trains. Most Port Jeff shuttle service will never be thru-routed to NYP like the Poughkeepsie trains are to GCT because the DM's are not reliable.
Three have alreay been written off and many have never run in revenue service. I think that is scandalous.
There is one Metro north train to Poughkeepse that uses one MU[M1/3] middays so you have to tranfer at Croten Harman.
There is one Metro north train to Poughkeepse that uses one MU[M1/3] middays so you have to tranfer at Croton Harmon.
Since I just got off the POK-GCT train 2 hours ago, I figure I'd haul out a schedule and settle this once and for all:
From NY to POK, there is ONE M-F train requiring a change at Croton (M-F), at 1:20 am, and 2 on weekends, at 1:20 am and 6:20 am.
From POK to NY, there are 2 M-F, at 9:59 pm and 10:59 pm, and 4 on weekends, at 9:33 pm, 10:59 pm, 4:30 am and 5:23 am.
Speaking from personal experience, Metro North has clearly reduced the number of transfers for "most" passengers. The exception is those whose jobs or other commitments require them to ride into NYC late at night or out of NYC in the wee hours. Good going, Metro North!
There are no C-2s
>>There are no C-2s<<
That would fall in line with the LIRR M-1s and M-3s. They are both odd numbers, the M-2 is Metro North, just like the M-4 and M-6.
Funny, there is no M-5..........which brings us to the M-7 !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Earlier in the evening, as I was driving on Grant Highway (Bronx) intending to turn westbound on the Washington Heights Bridge, I spotted an R-143 "B" car on a flatbed truck, on the southbound side of University Av. My guess is that the truck intended to turn westbound onto the bridge, probably as a way to get to 207th without having to navigate the 207th Street Bridge. The time was 11:35. I couldn't get the car number b/c I was at a bad angle and had to take a green arrow before I wound up getting pulled over by the two police units guarding the bridge's entrance.
I went down to Penn Station even earlier this evening to pick up Amtrak's guidebook and Northeast timetable for 2002 (I'm a SA member thinking of using that nice little 15% discount). I notice that Amtrak has a new electronic signboard listing train departures well into the night. The problem was that there were no listings of departures of NJ Transit trains, which is odd considering that there were at least a dozen departures of NJ Transit trains (NJ Coast, NE Corridor, and Midtown Direct) scheduled at that period of time (around 7 PM). The NRPC getting selfish? Perhaps. I then go to the customer serivce desk to ask for the guidbook and NE timetable, only to get stuck behind a patron asking for a departure time from the guy with the guidebook in front of him, and the lady next to him looking at me as if I was in some sort of rush. Did I feel silly when I later found that I could have had both at some of the new kiosks set up during the renovation!
As I was heading back for the "deuce," I noticed a lot of police officers (couldn't tell if they were either Amtrak's or NYPD's) standing by the Chase ATM facility, with some people inside. Didn't know if the people inside were stuck or not. But there was a lady insdie who seemed to have a key to the door gesturing to the cops. But there was also a man inside waiting to get to a machine.
On the subway uptown, I went through the guidebook looking for anything interesting. The first thing I found was that there were several new routes proposed for serivce this year:
A line that branches off the Sunset Limited near El Paso, TX, that would serve the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex,
A line that branches off the Cresent at Meridien, MS that would serve Houston and Dallas,
The "Downeaster" going north from Boston to Maine,
A Florida-Atlantic coast line that may be the fifth Silver Service train (The Meteor, Palm, Star, and Carolinian are the other four),
A new line from Chicago to Des Moines, IA, and
A revitalized "Desert Wind" that could run from LA to Las Vegas.
There was obviously no mention of the financial problems that Amtrak has been experiencing, particuarly that of their possibly being liquidated and divided among "competitors" (according to WCBS 880 AM) later this year. The Acela section was up front and highly advertised, although the route maps were smaller than all the rest of the maps. There was also something interesting about the sections on the Cascades service. Whoever edited the guidebook kept referring to the Cascades trains as "European-Designed." They didn't mention the particular gentleman's name, but I do know for a fact that he is directly from Spain (his name escapes me at the moment), designed a lot of Europe's high speed trains, and is now on the payroll of NJ Transit with the arduous task of spurcing up its drab fleets of buses and trains. This came out in the Times' Metro section back during the first week of January.
The new electronic departures board by the Amtrak information booth shows only Amtrak trains. The new electronic departures board in the upper level concourse by all the track gates shows both Amtrak and NJT trains.
lol !
lol !!
oh well did not load ...
copy and paste this address into the address bar and press enter, and it should show up:
http://community-2.webtv.net/hey-paul/MerylMeislersR142/media/captureD14.jpg
What the hell is that from?
That is from a poster thatr can be found in several subway stations...it is someone's work of art...making the interior of the R142 look like a fishtank. -Nick
yea it did not hold up when i trnasfered it ..
not like my photo webshots page .... lol
thankz ..
.....for we to POOP ON!!!
yea !
When the M-1s begin to be scrapped (Calverton siding) I would like to see some of their Ditch ligths find their way to some of the R/44s for night work on the Jamaica Bay Flats...
A beam burning its way on the Brighton line would also be acceptable.
avid
Would they fit on the r/46s and r/68s?
avid
How about on the R/42s and the slant 40s?
avid
In cooperation with the American Public Transportation Association, the Seashore Trolley Museum has developed and is hosting a new Web site, www.heritagetrolley.org. From the site's home page:
APTA Heritage Trolley Task Force Mission
The recent American quest for our roots, amid the context of our historical experience, has led to a revival of interest not only in the preservation of historic districts and urban neighborhoods, but also the growing interest in vintage streetcars. Further, as traditional neighborhoods in older cities become the location of choice for more American—singles, young couples, families and empty-nesters alike—there is an emerging a need to provide good transit service to these areas. The APTA Heritage Trolley Task Force was formed to promote the development of vintage/heritage trolley lines and modern streetcar lines, to foster information exchange among those planning or operating such lines, and to encourage reasonable technical and safety standards.
For more information, click on the "about hosts" page on www.heritagetrolley.org.
Does their mission include securing funding sources or is it just hot air? :-)
Not sure, Dave. It was just brought to my attention by Seashore's chairman. This was my first look at it as well, so I thought I'd share it with our fellow SubTalkers. I'll see what more I can find out.
Just spent a half hour on the site. A great resourse, and an indication that the industry is beginning to realize that the Museums are the starting point for heritage systems.
The Heritage site (old or old looking) plus "Light Rail Central" (new, at least post "PCC") will show you all the existing LRV/Trolleys that exist in the USA (old/new).
Thanks for the link Todd, I've added to my list of 70 odd mass transit sites (including steam, mfg. [e.g. Nova], bus companies, publishers [e.g. Railpace] etc.).
Mr rt__:^)
Last night was the first time I got to Opt. on the 7 line. No I was not in serives and I was not even on a pasager train, I was on a work Train. Me and my partner had a B to A trasfer. We were pushing a Cran and a Flal car all the was from 38 street Yard to Corona yard. To be fair to my partner I was Flaging him thought 4ave & 7ave untill Queensboro Plaza and he took over there. While on the MB a 10 car of R36wf from the 7 came over tose Brooklyn. They did not have any B division cars with them and no the Signal don't have two trip drivices on them. Beside the first two cars were R36's. The train was mostly the Cars from the Subway Seriese (6 out of the 10). Well anway when we got the Queesbora Plaza we change postion becouse he A Fivision Quilfed. Well let just say it was fun being on the 7 line even though it was not in serivec. But on my was back to Time Squ. the T/O on the 7 saw me and ask if I wanted to Opt. I was temted but I did not. I was afraid, not knowing how the RedBird handle. He said next time I see him he will lets me opt.
Robert
If you've EVER operated a 32, it's the same grab as a 'boid ... a throwback to days when all SMEE's were born equal ... aside from the extra width, same ride ... you could have EASILY done it if you were familiar with the 32's ... go for it next time. Only reason I could handle a 32 was because of prior A division experience without authorization, but I won't talk about it. Heh.
I might take him up next time and I would not post it.
Robert
Of COURSE not ... but seriously, if you've done 32's, it's the SAME THING in da cab ... you CAN do it ... and the smaller size of the car makes you SLOWER just on the basis of the size difference ... you CAN'T screw up.
Thou shalt not snitch. Enjoy the ride, it's actually FUN running in different territory ... best thrill I got was a couple of CC runs on penalty ... different is good now and then. :)
Sure he can. The brakes on the Redbirds, especially those at Corona, are NOT quite like those on the 32s. Many times on the 7, I've pulled 80# entering a level straight station and hoped that the train would stop before the platform did.
Things have changed then ... oh yeah, those dumbass shoes ... I keep forgetting about that ... in my day, REAL trains wore steel. Literally. :)
C'mon, you can tell us. It's not like you work there anymore.
Heh. I *have* ... don't wanna wear out "I took a train once, but they made me put it back" ... hey, I was jail bait then. :)
oh, yeah i remember you mentioned that. didn't know that was an IRT you took.
Saturday morning, IRT Broadway local #1 train from 242 to just north of 191 to an emergency exit while the cop cars climbed the hill from under the el to up above. :)
I don't remember a THING! Heh. And yes, there WERE geese on board who were treated to a Broadway Thru Exp trainride on a Saturday. Do I regret it? Not at the time, but age proves how DAMNED lucky I was along with three other kids to have escaped clean and past the statute of limitations. I did *NOT* operate the train though I knew how.
Fast by the way ... it wasn't until SCHOOL CAR that I even began to appreciate the RISK we put our geese through. Kids don't think. Glad I *did* my time with the TA or I would never have appreciated what we DID as kids ... and yes, I'm "reformed" ... I never steal traction without a previous wink and nod from a supervisory type who knows how really BAD my memory of certain events can be for $20. Heh.
And I got a set of 32's reserved for you to operate tomorrow night for the Rockaway Park run out of B'Way East NY! ;-D
All it takes is $1.50 and a dream! Ha!
Dang! And here we'll be paying off the LAST trip for the next few months. And they won't be headed to Branford anytime soon. :)
They're easy though. Maybe I'll sneak on the next Bombardier delivery and try to tell the crew that I'm on board for acceptance testing. Heh.
Robert, you need more practice on 6688.
Mr rt__:^)
I would love to get my hand on 6688. I was ther when it first got up there. My famly stoped going right begore you put the poll up so I never got to ride it. I did get to opt. the R9 those.I have to make some time to get up there this summer. The trip is going to be longer for me after I move to NJ.
Robert
We await your arrival. With or without a pole, 6688 is still a great car....
-Stef
Lastnight while talking to the T/O from my post from today, he told me that one train of R62's will be on the 7 line within the next two weeks. He got the info from the line Superanedent. So get you Camira ready.
Robert
Very interesting. I guess the TA is going to start the scrapping of WF R-33's soon.
Is that so? That's great news! I assume you mean R62A's.
:-) Andrew
Yes. I do get them mixed up.
Robert
The maintenance folks at Corona Shop are going to have a good time...
Changing over, that is. When the R33 and R36 cars are gone, maintenance will be simpler across the system.
What about putting double trip-cocks on some of them for CIY moves, or will they simply couple them to R33's ?
Yes yes yes!!!
Now THIS I HAVE TO SEE Fear not WORLDS FAIR BLUE BIRDS!!!!!!!!!
9321 has been scrapped. 9478-9523 were on the Pelham Line but they're scrap as well. 9544/5, 9548/9, 9552-9557 were on the 7 but they've headed to scrap also. 9307-9320, 9322-9345, 9346-9477, 9526-9539, 9542/3, 9546/7, 9550/1, 9558-9769 are currently on the 7 line now. I guess I figure that not many cars have headed to scrap on this line, now that within the next few weeks some may be taken off of the road to be headed there.
What cars are headed here? I've heard numerous rumors. I assume cars from the Pelham Line-R62As.
#9370 Flushing Local
hey robert,
where's my metrocard? just kidding......but actually i am waiting for your response..........rem731@AOL.COM
we heard this before .........
..lol ...!!
Yes, we certainly have. But thats not cool cuz it's not like we've heard a lot about the R142s being junk because of no railfan window. :p -Nick
Waddayah want? Railfan windows or reliable transport?
U can have 2 ............both .........
Foamer glass of course! We don't REALLY need to GET there ... at least until we run outta film. :)
And the R142s do have a railfan window, even if you don't get a great view out the front. But let's be thankful that the view out the front doesn't look like something this:
For all the great things about Montreal's subway, here's one thing that's not so great about it!
I agree!
What great things about the Montreal "Metro"?
What don't you like about the Montreal Metro?
I would think that the Montreal Metro is quieter because it runs on rubber tires. Lines are color coded. And of course, they made the stations distinctive looking. And the rolling stock isn't terrible, except for that solid windowless wall that separates the cab from the passenger areas. But a lot of cities have that same problem. London, Bangkok, Singapore, Sao Paulo -- all have subway cars with transverse cabs that permit absolutely no seeing out the front of the train. Heck, if the little window on the R62 cab doors wasn't there, we would have that problem too. There would probably be a lot of R62-bashing on this message board.
If you like fancy schmancy artistic stations, Montreal is for you. If you like the smell of burnt rubber from the tires, Montreal is for you. If you enjoy the loud windy sound made when the trains pick up speed, Montreal is for you. If you don't mind being a railfan in a system that does not go outdoors, Montreal is for you.
Of course, it's mostly a matter of opinion. A few months ago there was a long and contraversial thread regarding Montreal vs. Toronto, so I really don't want to start that again.But I will say that if you never left New York and visited Montreal for the first time, you would probably be impressed and awed by the station architecture and "efficiency" of the sysytem. Personally, I think that the interior of the cars are ugly, and the seating is minimal and cramped. Also, I'm not sure of the exact gauge, but they seem more narrow than IRT cars.
Now, Toronto: Full BMT/IND size cars, ample seating, brightly lit advertising racks throughout each car, interesting routing under ground, over ground, across bridges, and through highway medians. The stations, though not "art galleries", are clean, brightly lit, and efficient. Also, the last time I was there you were able to look out of the front of any kind of equipment running. And, I almost forgot, the multitude of "fare control" transfer points between the subway and buses/streetcars outside the downtown core. Sure, in Montreal there are free transfers between the Metro and the buses, but a paper transfer is always required. In Toronto, at many stations you go straight from the subway and onto the back door of a bus without missing a beat (and vice versa).
So, that is why Montreal doesn't impress me that much.
Since I'm from Toronto, the Yonge/University/Spadina subway line once operated Gloucester (similar to the IRT Redbirds) and they we're very interesting. I still wished that they have the Redbird scheme, but the Gloucesters were steel cars and paint was necessary to prevent rusting.
However, they could of made their stations a lot more interesting in terms of design, like the ones in NYC, especially the ones featured in the Nassau St. line.
Also, I wished that Toronto could slightly lengthen their Subway platform to accomodate 7 or 8 car trains (currently 6 cars) for capacity purposes.
This time of year though, Montreal's subway is a delight. Go anywhere in the city and in many places, never hit the street, and the cold. Might not be the best railfan experience unless you have a buddy or two on duty that'll let you ride up front, but it's STILL a nice system if your objective is getting somewhere.
Also you could understand the people in Toronto!!!
Eh?:-)
IIRC Montreal's Metro uses standard gauge track and the cars are IRT width. Plus each and every station (at least on the original portions) has side platforms.
I've ridden the Montreal Metro several times. I like it a great deal, but I can state without reservation that it is NOT quieter than a steel-wheel system.
David
Then what was the point in using rubber tires?
Good question. As far as I've been able to tell, Montreal did it because...Paris did it! Remember, this is Quebec we're talking about, where the people have (or did at one point) close ties to France.
David
Rubber tires eliminated the steel trackage and provided a higher level of shock absorbance not available in current trainsets. My R142s have an advanced air spring system....being chewed up by antique rails....over thirty years later. CI Peter
>>> Rubber tires eliminated the steel trackage <<<
Not really. Rubber tire systems have steel wheels and tracks to keep the train running when (not if) a tire blows out. Rubber tired trains were developed in the late ‘50s and early ‘60s by the Michelin Company (such altruistic people), and tended to appear only in France and places that looked to France for engineering expertise and/or economic aid. At that time they were quieter and smoother than steel wheel subways (think R-10, Lo Vs), but more expensive because of the frequent tire changes. Since that time there have been great strides in reducing the noise and smoothing the ride of steel wheel subways, so the comfort advantage of rubber tires has disappeared.
Tom
Try our subways....I'm hearing knocking from the truck kingpins of my new R142s on the #2. I'd like to know how often the rubber tires have to be changed. A lot has taken place in 30 years...but not the S turns that should have been straightened out which Bombardier claimed the R142s could handle. CI Peter
Funny thing about Paris's Metro. Only five of their 14 lines use rubber tires, including the new automated 14/Meteor Line. The rest are steel-wheeled. I like steel-wheel trains better. Don't have to woory about flat tires. If Montreal ever builds a new Metro line, they should go with steel wheels. And maybe they can call it the 3 line and use red for its color. Montreal has a 1 (green), a 2 (orange), a 4 (yellow) and a 5 (blue), but no 3 (red). Why is that? Montreal had other proposed lines, all with numbers higher than 3 and colors other than red.
From the website www.metrodemontreal.com:
Line 3 of the metro, which was to include 15 stations and use the CN tracks, including the train tunnel under Mount Royal, was never constructed. Converting the line for use with the metro would have required rolling stock with steel wheels instead of tires, and would have gone outside the limits of the city of Montreal.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You do have to worry about flat steel wheels. That's why you buy truing machines and keep spare wheels handy.
>>> I can state without reservation that it is NOT quieter than a steel-wheel system. <<<
That may be true of the present day steel wheel systems, but it was not the case when the Montreal Metro opened in the ‘60s. I rode it while visiting the Expo in ‘67 and there was a noticeable difference between it and the NYC subway of that day.
Tom
Old Tom: do you remember that many windows were replaced with perforated stainless steel??? Repeated air conditioner failures and the hazard of heat indused phosgene gas prompted the mods....were those trains hot and sweaty!!!! CI Peter
>>> do you remember that many windows were replaced with perforated stainless steel??? <<<
I only visited Montreal once in 1967 and did not notice any perforated stainless steel then. I do not know about any modifications that have been made since then.
Tom
The mod was made during Expo 67. I was there when DeGaulle visited the French Pavillion and the elevator got stuck and its windows clouded up with human breath. Vichy Frogs were tossing about hand grenades and I learned how to ask for grapefruit juice: pimplemoose.
They retrofitted the windows on the doors at the ends of the cars with a stainless steel mesh and chopped holes and installed large fans in the ceiling/roof of the cars because the previous ventilation system didn't change the air inside the cars frequently enough.
-Robert King
Wrong!!! AC units were leaking Freon and there was a fear that heat would convert the freon to Phosgene gas. I was there!!! CI Peter
Ummm... Montreal Metro cars aren't and never were air conditioned. It's something I and many other people complained about frequently in the 20 years I lived there. Don't ever ride the Metro in the summer!!
In 1967, the Montreal cars were air conditioned and it was a matter of public complaint on the English speaking TV news about how uncomfortable the cars were after AC leaks were discovered and systems shut down over the fear that leaking freon would produce phosgene gas. I was twelve years old and amazed how clean and quiet the system was...no grafitti, no trash, you could sit anywhere in a station and read all day undisturbed, a good place to be. Nearly thirty five years later, I'm a car inspector silently sitting in my Redbird...in tears. Everything is destroyed, there is not one piece of glass left unmarked (some get cracked,) the stations ARE ALWAYS FILTY, grafitti is everywhere, even the tunnel signals are vandalized. This is 'Planet of the Apes,' this is 'Escape from New York,' this is 'Omega Man.' Where are you my President, where are you and when will we receive the 'call to arms?" Where are you Charleton Heston?
Could these air-conditioned cars be the Expo '67 cars we're talking about here, and not the Montreal Metro cars? There was talk of sending the Expo '67 cars to Staten Island after the Expo, but it never happened and the R-44s (MUE-2s) were ordered instead (after the city bought the line from the B&O).
David
>>> Could these air-conditioned cars be the Expo '67 cars we're talking about here <<<
What are Expo ‘67 cars? I do not remember seeing any railcars at Expo ‘67, and the trains that went to the site were Montreal Metro rubber tired trains which would not be suitable for use on Staten Island.
Tom
I've read about them, but have never seen a picture. It's possible that the source I read (a while ago, granted) was incorrect.
David
Eric Oszustowicz, NYD-ERA's former Program Committee chairman, has loaned me a Steve Zabel photo of an Expo '67 car. With Eric's permission, I have forwarded a JPG of the photo to David Pirmann for inclusion in the archives.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
There was a heavy rail line at Expo 67 known as the Expo Express which ran between the city pier and LaRonde. It was a free (yes, FREE) limited-stop service with stops at Habitat '67 (one direction only, but no train I ever rode on stopped there), Ile St. Helene, Ile Notre Dame, and LaRonde. After the fair closed and reopened as Man and His World the following year, the line was cut back to Ile St. Helene or Ile Notre Dame (don't remember which was the westernmost) and LaRonde, with a station added before LaRonde and the Jacques Cartier Bridge.
The cars were 3-car units with 3 sets of double doors per side, with slanted ends on the outer ends of each set. The slanted ends were more similar to those on Chicago's 2000-series cars than the slant R-40s. 6-car trains was the norm.
I wish I could say the Metro was still like that. Last time I was there (last year) I found that the system was in really bad shape. There is scratchitti all over the windows, especially on the Green Line. I remember in particular Charlevoix station on the Green Line was so full of grafitti that one could barely tell the colour of the walls. Many of the trains of the same model as pictured earlier in the thread are in poor condition and are breaking down often and causing major delays.
I guess it's just a sign of the decline that city is in. If the Quebec government would start putting money into the system instead of ridiculous things like language police or separation from Canada the Metro would be much better off!!
Language police??? Stinkin frogs up there spoke 'old French' like their Vichy masters. I remember driving up there and asking a postman for directions. The guy with his Frenchy moustache looks at me and thinks 'Ahhhmerikan.' Smuck...tries to speak to me in French so i hit him with GI German. I get the driving directions...we look at eachother and smile. The Karma wheel turns...and i get R142 new tech from Bombardier. CI Peter
"Kwest Kwee sessed noodly" also gets English out of them. :)
I remember when the steel mesh was installed in place of door windows. Originally the trains didn't have any steel mesh. Other details I can recall are the doors starting to open just before the train came to a full stop and the single "ding" coming from the cab after the doors had closed. London's Underground trains did the same thing in 1978. Something to do with indication, I'm sure.
.........MAN DOES THAT SUX............!!!!!
this really does SUX ...look how much room that guy has inside his transverse cab !! What in the hell ???
NO LOL HERE !! ...........UGH !
this really does SUX ...look how much room that guy has inside his transverse cab !! What in the hell ???
What's even worse is that he's not even really needed. From what I understand, the whole system is on automatic train control and the motorman is there as a manual backup. I could be wrong, however...it's been about 18 years since I last rode the Métro.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
oh yea ... just like marta in atlanta san farnciscos BART ....
All he does is the doors and announcements on the Green Line, but some don't do the latter and they don't even need to get up to do the doors.
Yeah, but it's a nice *BIG* foamy window if you're inside the wall. And there's a jumpseat over on the left side that's available.
is that system opto as well .........???
Yes indeed ...
Yes, except for one of the lines that has a long run under the river and there is a driver in the rear cab as well. The idea behind having two drivers on that line (can't remember which one) is that emergency train evacuations under the St. Lawrence river will go smoother with two on the train crew instead of just one, if the need to evacuate ever arises.
-Robert King
so one acts a conductor ??
No, the driver in the rear cab doesn't do anything until the train reaches the end of the line and his end becomes the forward facing end. The drivers in the rear of the train are just there to help out in case something goes wrong on that line because of that long run under the St. Lawrence river.
-Robert King
That would be the Yellow, or #4 line, the one with the stop at Ile St. Helene. I remember counting 93 fluorescent lights between that stop and the transfer station from the other two original lines.
If that photo made you say, "UGH!", then this next one's gonna make you say, "UUUUUGGGGGGGHHHH!!!"
Yes, London, the world's oldest subway system has trains that make it impossible to see out the front unless you're Superman. What's worse is that while Montreal's Metro is entirely underground, the London Underground has a lot of above-ground stations. Of course, the padded seats in London's trains are a nice touch, but we'd never be able to have them in New York.
Is that the new train on the Jubilee line? I've ridden them - they have a red button on both inside and outside of cars. When the train comes to a stop you press the button to make the doors open.
Refurbished 1973 stock on the Picadilly line, according to Dave's caption...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The new trains on the Jubilee Line look very similar on the interior, though. The main difference is the color scheme; the Jubilee trains have yellow/turquoise as opposed to red/blue interiors.
Also, the AC motors on the Jubilee trains have a very distinctive sound, and the automated announcement voice sounds suspiciously like Mary Poppins.
-- David
Chicago, IL
well ! U made my point well ............lol !!
like this car for exampe.
Great photo of the interior of a London "Tube" train.
#3 West End Jeff
It sure is. Dave sure did take some good photos of the London tube and sub-surface trains. BTW, the sub-surface trains, also have no railfan window as you can see here:
The sub-surface trains look to be a little closer to what we have in New York, except for the padded seats and the inability to look out the front of the trains.
Those late 1970s district line trains with the single leaf doors... hopefully London Underground will have something done about that interior when they get overhauled. That said, they are the most comfortable subsurface stock running there.
-Robert King
I don't remember seeing any trains with single-leaf doors on the District Line in 1978. 1920s-vintage rolling stock, yes. They had spur-cut bull and pinion gears, too; I thought I was on a train of R-1/9s.
The single leaf door trains hadn't arrived yet (or were close to) in 1978 - that's why you didn't see them. If you look closely at the picture up one or two posts, you can see the single leaf doors (examine the window in the door).
-Robert King
Here's a picture which clearly shows the single leaf doors used on the District line D type rolling stock:
-Robert King
Very interesting. I still don't remember seeing anything like that.
As I recall, even modern London rolling stock (I was last there in 1988) had spur-cut bull-and-pinion gears. That noise brought back some memories!
On the deep tube lines, the continuous cast-iron tubes and the tight car clearances created another phenomenon: You could hear the sound of a train coming (and get a blast of cold air) long before you saw the beams of light streaming through the tunnel---the train was still quite a distance away. I suppose this was useful for people working on the tracks. If you fell on a London Track, however, you couldn't lie down in a groove between the rails---London uses a FOURTH rail, as a common ground return, inbetween the running rails. (It make the tracks look like Lionel track! Or perhaps Gargraves.)
When I was on the District/Metropolitan/Circle Lines, I sometimes felt like I was on the Brighton Line, with all of those open cuts.
You can hide, at least in the tube stations, underneath(!) the fourth rail in the pit provided.
-Robert King
The trick is to actually get down there without getting fried... Anybody remember that childrens' game "Operation" where you had to pick out the little plastic bones with metal tweezers without touching the sides, or else you'd get zapped? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The District Line threw me for a loop at first, because I didn't realize there were in fact cut-and-cover Underground lines in addition to the deep bore ones.
I didn't have any problem with the left-handed operation.
I like the padded seats, but I don't care for the lack of a railfan window.
#3 West End Jeff
the # 7 line WHIPPED the r-142s !! They could not handle iit !!
I now that we heard it before, but lets just see if it happen. I just posed what I heard.
Robert
yea hope they wait until this fall ...
i tbelieve the the redbirds should make thier last gol lin stand on the # 7 line ..
OH YEA !!
I've been told that the barn at Corona has about 12 R-62 blueprints on the walls in the work area. It's not known if these were put up recently, are still there from when the R-62's did a brief test run on the 7 line, or are required to be there because Corona is an "A" division barn.
If 62's do come to the 7, I wonder which ones they'll use? I think it would be easy to take some 5-car families from the 4 and 6, and simply add a single-car unit to them to make an 11 car train. But it's not likely that the TA will mix R-62's and R-62 A's. I guess we'll all have to be patient to wait and see what, if anything, happens.
Yes the "blueprints" for the R62a are in Corona Barn. Ive seen them up close and personal. Thats why Im convinced that is what is going to end up there.........
Isn't that what they're called? "Blueprints"?
Years ago when you needed to make a copy of a large drawing it came out in blue & white, a BLUE print/copy.
Mr rt__:^)
When a standard drawing is done on tranparent vellum or equal, the drafter uses dark pencil or ink to draw. A sensitized yellow paper is used to make the prints by placing the drawing on top and passing it through a special light. The yellow paper has everything burned off of it except where the pencil lines were so the drafter's image remains. Then the sheet is passed through an ammonia section and turns the yellow lines to blue. Actually, we should call them "white-prints" since they are more white than blue. The only blue is the image lines, dimensions, notes, and title and border area.
This takes me back to the 70's when I was on the drawing board.
Chuck Greene
Took a drafting class at one of those tilted tables. Had my compus, protractor, pencils & sand paper to keep the pencil sharp. Every once in a while i'll still turn the pencil to keep it sharp.
Mr rt__:^)
Hey, Thurston:
Hopefully, no more of that for me. I'm running 3-D Modeling
and we print everything on a printer 11x17. I'll never go back to the board.
Chuck Greene
I use Autodesk v. 3
that sint bad at all.. I love architecture..
Mike
I use Solid Works for mechanical stuff and it's awesome. Good luck with your work!
Chuck Greene
I remember doing that! (7th grade shop class, mid 1970's). I had a straightedge and triangle. 2 pointsoff anytime I drew an intersecion and let any line "go over" by as much as 0.5 mm.
That's why we had those little erasing shields so you could get down and carefully erase all of your overuns (boo-boos). Now , on the computer, with Auto-Cad and Solid Modeling sketches, you can just trim your lines off! Whoops, I guess we'd better end this off topic
thread!
Chuck Greene
Eraser shields ... forgot about those ... bet I still have one somewhere.
Mr rt__:^)
Don't forget your T square.:-)
Yes, thank you! And a protractor!
And it wsn't a ruler; it was an engineering scale.
Right!
I didn't use a T-square, we had boards with a straightedge built in that would slide along it. Mine was one of the few in which it wasn't broken off.
The 4 has R62s, not R62As. All R62s operate on the 4 line.
The 7 will be getting R62As from the 1 and 3 lines. The R62As on the 6 are going to the 1. 1670 and 1770 and their respective families are among the cars that used to have Pelham markers but are now carrying VC markers. I saw 1835 on the 3 with Pelham markers.
Now this is set in stone aprox 2 weeks from now ??.....
also by what order on paper somewhere ??
Salaam,
I am not the one who reported that info, but the subtalkers who have received their information from reliable sources on the TA. My guess is nothing is ever set in stone, and times are approximate. Two weeks is only the first train, you won't see a real turnover until later this spring, probably sometime in May. -Nick
hope not too many of them until the fall i wanted to shoot mostl #7 redbirds this summer !!
hope not too many of them until the fall i wanted to shoot all #7 redbirds this summer !!
This is nitpicking a bit so I don't mean to sounds like I'm adament about this.
What irks me about the subway maps is that there are inconsistencies with how some diamond trains are regarded. To me, it should mean that a diamond train is different from the main (circle) route concurrently. Examples: <6> trains run at the same time as the (6) on weekdays, their northern terminal during those times are different and one is express while the other is local in the Bronx. Same cases can be made for the 7 and Q lines. They deserve the distinction because it matters what train you are on in certain areas. On the other side are the trains that are designated as diamonds only because their routes are extended or different, but ALL trains during that time run the same route. Examples.... extended to Bay Parkway and to Bedford Park Blvd. During these times....do any M or B trains turn at 9th ave or 145 st, respectively? I don't think so, but if I'm wrong, correct me. All that needs to be explained is that during rush hours these trains are extended to whatever station. No need to change the signs to diamonds. Do the B, M, and 4 trains change their rollsigns to diamonds during rush hour?
=)
I apologize for the accidental bold...obviously where the bold starts should be Diamond-B
=)
You want the 5 to Dyre Ave. to be designated with a diamond on the roll sign so that you know whether it makes all local stops to 180th or skips them (in case you want to get out there). Agreed, you don't need a diamond for the B or M on the roll sign (I don't remember if there ever is one but I think not, actually).
As for the subway maps, there needs to be some kind of warning that you can't always expect an M to go out to Bay Parkway or a B to go all the way to Bedford Park Blvd. I guess the TA uses a diamond because that is their symbol for trains that only run in peak periods.
They could use a symbol other than a diamond on the maps for that purpose, but maybe that would be more confusing than using the diamond in two different yet related ways.
It's never personally confused me. When I see a diamond, either on the map or on a roll sign, I am alerted that I have to be careful because this train may not always go to every place it sometimes goes to.
yea they do change their signs. I have seen Diamond As too. In my opinion they should change the E to 179 as a Diamond. because when u think about the meaning of diamond, it means RUSH HOURS ONLY. and the E only goes to 179 rush hour. also MAKE THEM EXPRESS DAMMIT. LOL I THINK THEY DID ALREADY
The E going to 179 sometimes has got to confuse people. How has it been working so far?
Diamonds are originally supposed to mean rush only, but the TA is inconsistant by using a diamond Q for the Brighton Exp. They should have used a different letter for it.
The legend on the current "The Map" says, Special Rush Hour or Express Service.
Then they are really incosistant because the A,E,F,etc aren't diamonds, yet they are expresses.
I believe that thye man "special" to also modify "express services." (Remember the associated law of muiltiplication over addition?)
It means Special Rush Hour OR Special Express services. For example, if a line has an express service at some times and not others, then it gets a diamond. If it is always express, then it doesn't.
But that still doesn't explain the diamond Q, which was my main concern.
I can't explain it. I think it deserves its own name.
I don't understand why they don't just call the diamond Q another route letter.
I am not aware of the B or M lines using diamond symbols during rush hours.
--Mark
Before we got the new rollsigns some end signs on R-68(a?)s had the diamond B, but they were never used.
If you really want to be consistent, the 1 to New Lots should be a diamond train. The 4 to Utica should be a diamond. Only the 4 to New Lots should be a circle, and the map should show both the 1 and 4 to New Lots. This would also clear up the dotted line portion of the G. Diamond G to COurt Sq. Circle G to Continental late nights.
"1 to New Lots should be a diamond train. The 4 to Utica should be a diamond" I dont understand this. Why???
Doesn't the 1 run more than just rush hours to New Lots, Why would it be a diamond?
The thread was talking about having two "Q" trains, a diamond and a circle. The Diamond Q runs more than just rush hour, it runs daytime. Morning to night, but not overnight/"late night." According to that logic, the 1 to New Lots, which opperates daytime--morning to night--but not "late night," should be the diamond, with the late night 1 to Chambers being the circle. (this is also consistent with the circle 5 not going into Brooklyn, but the diamond 5 going to Flatbush Ave.) And, the 4 only terminates at Utica when there's a diamond 1, so it would be a diamond 4. The late night 4 service is the only 4 to New lots, which should be on the map, but isn't. When they put it on the map, they can give it a circle. Which is what they give the G to Continental. But they show it on the map as a dotted line. Why not just put the late night G on as a circle, with the diamond G going to Court Sq. Clearer?
No, totally missing the point. This has to do with trains running on different routes at the SAME time.
1 and 4 do not need diamonds because there are no 1's to chambers AND 1 to new Lots running simultaneously. Same with 4 to Utica and New Lots. They do not run simultaneously. The two Q's, 7's, and 6's run concurrently, thus needing something to differentiate them.
=)
All I was trying to do was suggest that things be consistent, even if things aren't always clear. All 5s go to Flatbush, right? There are never circle 5s and diamond 5s at the same time, am I right? Same with M to Bay Parkway. Same with diamond Bs to the Bronx. I do feel like making some rush hour 7s 11s could be just as confusing: skip-stop and rush-hour express only are confusing at first. I worked in Williamsburg/Bushwick for two years. None of my customers could get the hang of J service sometimes stopping at Hewes St, and sometimes not. And that's the J, not a diamond version of the M.
A few #5 trains operate to and/or from New Lots Avenue and Utica Avenue.
The diamond 5 is supposed to represent thru-expresses, which are the trains to/from the White Plains Road branch (as opposed to the Dyre Avenue branch). It's been gotten wrong so often by so many train crews that the meaning has been blurred if not lost.
David
All rush hour 5's run express in the peak direction. There's no need to waste a diamond on the 5 express. Should the rush hour variants on the 1 (skip-stop pre-9/11), 4 (138 bypass), D (Bronx express), and J (skip-stop) also use diamonds?
As on other lines, the 5 should reserve the diamond to distinguish between two services that run at the same time. Specifically, circles should run to Dyre (at all times) and diamonds should run to 238 (rush hours). Whether the train runs local or express is solely a function of time of the day (and day of the week).
So does that mean the Z should be a diamond because it's rush hour only. This is getting more confusing the more I read this thread!
No. The Z and the 9 (when it ran) are skip-stop trains pairing with the J and 1 respectively. They hop-scotch over each other, rather than a classic express/local situation. Why they rate separate designations is beyond me. Perhaps skip-stop should have "triangle" designations, or some such thing. We would thus have the circle J and the triangle J. The diamonds are express versions of the circles, which continue to run local at the same time. This applies to the 5 on the WPR line, the 6, the 7 and the Q. Back in the 1970's, it could have been applied to the F in Brooklyn as well had the notation existed then, with the CI bound expresses designated as the diamond F.
Wow, that confused the s*** out of me. But yes I know what you are saying, they are not consistant.
Not quite. The 1 runs to New Lots all times except late nights. The Q express doesn't run late evenings or weekends. That's a big difference.
There's no reason to sign a train with a diamond except to distinguish it from other trains that run at the same time. Every late night 1 terminates at Chambers. A diamond on the sign doesn't give any new information.
There's also no reason to sign a train with a diamond just because it terminates a few stops early or is extended by a few stops. If, during the day, the 1 train you're on terminates at Chambers (yes, there are a few daytime 1's that terminate at Chambers), just get off and wait for the next one. Diamonds are only necessary for trains that might lead circle-seekers astray, by running express or by using a different branch.
The map messes up this elegant system by using diamonds also for special rush hour services (in addition to, e.g., the Q, 6, and 7, whose diamond versions run middays as well).
They do not. And there is no diamond Z, even though it's a rush hour only service, the only exclusive rush hour line left in the system.
I agree 100%. In fact, I'll take it a step further: there's no need to use a diamond to indicate a simple route extension, even if some rush hour trains don't operate over the extension, since anyone on a train that doesn't can get off at the last stop and wait for the next train to continue. Diamonds should only be used where (a) both the diamond and the circle run at the same time, and (b) the diamond doesn't make all of the circle's stops, either because the diamond runs express or because the diamond diverges (but not because the diamond simply terminates early).
The TA, in fact, has two systems of diamonds in use. One appears on timetables and (usually) train signs; the other appears on the map. The former is basically what I advocate above, with the lone exception of the rush hour 5, which should carry a circle to Dyre and a diamond to 238 (every peak direction rush hour 5 runs express in the Bronx, just as every peak direction rush hour 4 bypasses 138; there's no need for a diamond in either case) and, arguably, the E to 179. The latter is an ambiguous jumble of the above and generic rush hour service.
I have actually seen an R62 on the 4 a couple of times this past week mid-train that happened to have its route marker left on diamond 4. I haven't actually seen a 4 display a diamond in service though. The diamond 4 makes sense on the map for clarity's sake, but it seems like such a waste that they even bothered to use a space on the sign for a service that only skips one stop!!!
As you might guess from my handle, I'm on the diamond 5 just about every day. It would make more sense if they left Dyre trains a circle and used diamonds only on trains to 238th, which is a true rush hour only service. Better yet, use a new number for it, which I understand might happen as the 5 fleet gains newer cars.
#5 fleet is gaining newer cars. Another barge sailed down the Hudson Friday. CI Peter
Keeping the Crowds and the Complainers Moving
"First, [Warsh] is a self-described, lifelong 'foamer,' the kind of overinformed train fanatic who almost foams at the mouth when talking about the romance of the rails."
> lifelong 'foamer,' the kind of overinformed train fanatic
> who almost foams at the mouth
Does the Times denigrate any other hobby as regularly and dare I say viciously as railfanning?
I'm surprised Randy Kennedy used that description ... does he think that all of us here at Subtalk, some of whom have been profiled by him in other articles, are also foamers?
--Mark
I think Randy Kennedy might mean well but I don't think that he himself is a railfan. I think he's just trying to work his way up the ranks of reporter jobs at the Times and the transit beat is where he's at right now... Disclaimer: I've talked to him many times and I think he's a nice guy but he'll always be an outsider to the railfan culture.
We have a culture?
:0)
Some of us. ;-)
We have a culture?
"Subcultue" would be the proper term ;)
Yeah. A throat culture.
The doctor says the results should be ready on Monday.
Maybe Randy Kennedy's boss had more to do with that placement of the tern than the author of the piece. Don't forget, Kennedy is merely an employee of a giant mega-corporation...
BMTman
Yes, but he says Warsh is a "self-described lifelong foamer".
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, that's what it says but I know *I*'ve been misquoted in the New York Times before. I just don't believe Mr. Warsh would use that word to describe himself.
Yeah, that's what it says but I know *I*'ve been misquoted in the New York Times before. I just don't believe Mr. Warsh would use that word to describe himself.
I don't know Warsh at all, but it seems to me entirely plausible that he said it in a longer explanation of his interest in rail.
I am *quite sure* that Kennedy wouldn't have written "self-described" if Warsh didn't say it. They're not perfect, but NYT reporters are usually pretty good about these things.
And frankly, guys, we talk about "foamers" all the time here. Why not let some of the esoteric lingo out into public use?
Curious to know the details of you being misquoted. Was it actually different words than what you said, or was it taking a small piece of a longer sentence out of context? The latter is far, far more common than the former (and may be the case here).
And frankly, guys, we talk about "foamers" all the time here. Why not let some of the esoteric lingo out into public use?
Because public use of the term has often been used to describe "people in the hobby" who break the law (Darius McCollum comes to mind) or who get in the way of TA operations. It is not complimentary.
--Mark
I would say I've been misquoted both using slightly different words than I said, since I don't think that at any time that I've talked to a reporter that the conversation was recorded for later playback, and most definitely taking a small piece of a large conversation and using it out of context. I remember thinking, after having read an article that I was quoted in (not necessarily written by Randy Kennedy, could have been anyone), that "I wish my words hadn't been twisted around like that."
Saying someone is "a self-described foamer" is not a direct quote and has no guarantee that those are the words that the speaker used. Consider if Mr. Warsh had said: "I'm really a huge railfan and this job allows me to use my lifelong avid interest in railroads." So now consider later on when Mr. Kennedy is writing his article. He's thinking: "He said he's a huge railfan.. avid interest... that's like the term I've heard before: foamer, so I'll just summarize what Mr Warsh said and use the words self-described foamer". I think that's probably a legitimate journalistic technique.
I don't know what happened, I'm just speculating. But if you think that there are those among us who don't mind being described with the word foamer, which to me has connotations of crazed, out of control, rabid, like a dog, far beyond enthusiast or hobbyist, I can't argue with that. Maybe some of us don't mind. I for one think there are more legitimate ways that people like us, and Mr. Warsh, even if he DID in fact use that word, could be described without those extra connotations.
I'm a member of the media, and I've been misquoted myself (though I've never misquoted myself :-) so I'm especially sensitive to it. When I worked for the American Meteorological Society, I gave many interviews on the profession, and in particular, on the small percentage (8% if you must know) of meteorologists who are in the media.
Most recently, the Boston Globe interviewed me for a piece on radio & TV meteorologists in Boston. I told the interviewer that "...weather forecasting is a combination of experience, training, scientific education, and intuition." He left out "scientific education." A critical part of my sentence.
You'll see one of the factors that leads up to this when you are interviewed in person for a print publication. Typically, the reporter has a small notebook in which s(he) scribbles key words, then pieces them back together in the office. If you are interviewed on tape for radio or TV, ensure that your sentences are short, crisp, and make one (and only one) point each. That way, it's harder for the editor (who is usually not the reporter who interviewed you, by the way), to jumble what you said.
To keep this on topic, here are two reports I've put together on:
The 100th anniversary of the Boston subway
The 90th anniversary of the New York subway
Hopefully, I didn't misquote anyone!
I'm a member of the media, and I've been misquoted myself (though I've never misquoted myself :-) so I'm especially sensitive to it.
Me too. 12 years as a magaazine reporter, writer, editor and article assignment guy. Not to mention I chronically edit, copyedit and proofread everything that passes me ... to the frequent annoyance of coworkers.
That said, I won't deny there are bad, lazy or sloppy journalists. But in this *particular* case, I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill, and a huge amount of bad attitude about the NY Times has emerged.
Given the variety of things Warsh has done, and the responsible position he's in, he knows perfectly well how interviews should be played, how reporters work and the impact of every single word. I have no reason to believe that he didn't use the word "foamer". Kennedy (or his editors) *had* to explain it, 'cause it's not common usage. If Warsh didn't want to be described as a 'self-describer "foamer" ' (note quotes correctly around only the one word), he *shouldn't have said it in the first place*.
I'll eat my words if the Times publishes a correction saying that Warsh didn't say it. And, if he complains, they would do so unless Kennedy had a recording to prove otherwise, or perhaps a reporter's notepad with the actual word on it.
End of testy rant. I still think it was a fine article. Warsh sounds eager, smart, energetic and devoted. God knows we ought to have more like him!
Saying someone is "a self-described foamer" is not a direct quote and has no guarantee that those are the words that the speaker used.
Plus, it was Kennedy who added, "...overinformed train fanatic who almost foams at the mouth..."
lifelong 'foamer,' the kind of overinformed train fanatic
who almost foams at the mouth
Does the Times denigrate any other hobby as regularly and dare I say viciously as railfanning?
It may not be the Times, but last week the Wall Street Journal had an article about plane spotters that sort of poked fun at them, making them seem like a rather quirky bunch.
Hmmm...
I have to admit I've laughed at people who know how to speak Klingon, so I guess its only fair if find myself in the crosshairs for the enthusiasm I give to my own interests.
Mark
You have to remember some of the editors of the Times have a very narrow viewpoint of what is and isn't gauche, both within the city and without. It's pretty much based on that old New Yorker cartoon, except that in their case, the size of the city itself south of 14th St. on the East Side and north of 96th St. on both sides of town, let alone the other boroughs, would shrink down to near nothingness like the rest of the nation does in the cartoon.
Higher-ups at the Times see the subway as a necessary evil at best and not something that anyone with refined tastes -- such as the people who read the New York Times -- would be very much into, so they see no problem in profiling railfans as a trifle excentric. Similarly, if you gave a Times editor a story on the 75,000 or so people who go to your average NASCAR race, odds are there would be a paragrpah or two of condesention in there as well.
You have to remember some of the editors of the Times have a very narrow viewpoint of what is and isn't gauche, both within the city and without. It's pretty much based on that old New Yorker cartoon, except that in their case, the size of the city itself south of 14th St. on the East Side and north of 96th St. on both sides of town, let alone the other boroughs, would shrink down to near nothingness like the rest of the nation does in the cartoon.
14th? True Times-people get a little nervous below 42nd. And the real hard-core ones don't even like the East Side.
Higher-ups at the Times see the subway as a necessary evil at best and not something that anyone with refined tastes -- such as the people who read the New York Times -- would be very much into, so they see no problem in profiling railfans as a trifle excentric.
More to the point, it's something they personally don't ride. Taking the subway rather than taxis or car services means they'd be in uncomfortably close proximity with us (ick!) Common People.
Similarly, if you gave a Times editor a story on the 75,000 or so people who go to your average NASCAR race, odds are there would be a paragrpah or two of condesention in there as well.
Times joke:
What has 149,985 legs* and 200,000 teeth?
The crowd at a NASCAR race.
* = you have to allow for the occasional amputee
OK, qualification on the 14th St./East Side thing -- there are some trendy places on Second Ave. and even in Alphabet City that the Times will explore, the same way Lewis and Clark mapped out the Northwest Passage 200 years ago. But that doesn't mean your typcial Timesian desk person would feel as at home over there as they would among the streets of Greewich Village (to hook up to another thread, it's the same thing with a place in the outerboroughs like Peter Lugar's -- It's fashionable enough to make the `A' list, and the trip to a not-so-hot section of Brooklyn can give the Times higher-ups and their target audience a sense of adventure akin to that of the 16th Century explorers departing for the New World after hearing about the land and the natives from Columbus' ship logs).
OK, qualification on the 14th St./East Side thing -- there are some trendy places on Second Ave. and even in Alphabet City that the Times will explore, the same way Lewis and Clark mapped out the Northwest Passage 200 years ago. But that doesn't mean your typcial Timesian desk person would feel as at home over there as they would among the streets of Greewich Village (to hook up to another thread, it's the same thing with a place in the outerboroughs like Peter Lugar's -- It's fashionable enough to make the `A' list, and the trip to a not-so-hot section of Brooklyn can give the Times higher-ups and their target audience a sense of adventure akin to that of the 16th Century explorers departing for the New World after hearing about the land and the natives from Columbus' ship logs).
You are correct, Times bigwigs might occasionally venture into the Terra Incognita of Downtown or Brooklyn if struck by a particularly adventurous whimsy. What you failed to mention, however, is that before leaving they update their wills and leave DNA specimens.
So long as their cell phones work in the wilds of Brooklyn or the mysterious east-of-First-Ave. area, I suppose they could have someone call them every 30 minutes or so just to make sure everything's all right.
Division of the city:
Downtown (below 14th street)
Midtown (to 57th street)
Upper East Side
Upper West Side
Harlem and the outer boroughs
What happened to the Line-by-Line history??? Also, there was a post a LONG time ago with the initial plans for Chrystie St line changes from about march 1965. Does anybody remember whar thread that was?/ Tony
if you're talking about the line by line guides on this site, go to the front page, and you'll find each of the lines grouped by original division - just go to each division's section and you'll see all the material I have organized by division.
I think I found the Chrystie Plan that you were looking for. I will e-mail it to you directly.
I tried to send you the Chrystie Plan via e-mail but your e-mail host rejected it.
Thanks guys!!!!! I realy appreciate that!!!! Tony Leong
Ahem, sorry guys, but I did find the line-by line history that I was looking for--it was on another site. Tony leong
I don't know if this has been discussed here before or not, but does anyone know why all of the plans for the Second Avenue Subway seem to be limited to two tracks? Where would the city be today if this kind of short-sighted thinking had been used instead of building the 4-track trunk lines that we now have?
The extra cost involved (when already undertaking such an expensive effort) seems minimal for the flexibility and capacity benefits that would result. Besides the basic increase in potential number of trains, better express (and, by association, local) service could be provided. There could be more potential for additional services to/from Queens and the 6th Ave. and Broadway lines via the 63rd St. line and tunnel. There could be enough capacity to run some sort of special GCT-to-downtown shuttle. Possible future extensions to the Bronx or Brooklyn should also be considered. At the downtown end of the line, connections could more easily be made to both the existing Nassau St. subway and a new line to Water St.
Are there any other reasons (beyond basic financial ones) to limit this project to 2 tracks? If they are going to get down there and build, why not build with the future in mind?
From what I have seen and heard, you can either go with limited stop with 2 tracks or nothing at all.
Are the plans to build it in such a way as to leave a provision for the future if 2 more tracks are ever needed/wanted?
I would guess no. That is taking into account of how long it will take to do a two track line and how much it would cost. The 6th Ave express track I would say was the last set of express track I would ever see in my lifetime (I'm 48).
Glad to know when Second Av' upper half opens in 10 years you'll be here for it.
I'm 30 and I consider mysely lucky if I ever even see the 2 track 2 Ave subway.
Well don't feel you're the Lone Ranger on this. I'm 61 and I have my doubts that I will ever see my Sea Beach on the Manhattan Bridge again.
I hope that you're wrong. Like you I would like to see the Sea Beach Line train ("N" train) on the Manhattan Bridge once again.
#3 West End Jeff
I was thinking about a way they could make a provision for a 4 track line. They could build the two track line with side platforms with false walls . Then when the time comes, they build two outer tracks and the original stations become express stations with two island platforms. This would be like an expanded verson of the Grand St provision.
That's a nice approach.
So the express would actually ride on the outside instead of the inside tracks?
No, when the outer tracks are made, the local will shift to the outer tracks. The outer tracks will have side platforms for the local, and the two island platform for express stations (which are the former locals when the original two tracks are built). Then 2nd Av will look like any normal 4 track line.
This way I suggest is justified becuase the current plan calls for the stations to be far apart, like an express only line. Infilling them with locals later shouldn't make the stations too close together. Downtown, where the stations are closer, they would all be express stations. Like the 6th Av line.
So how would platforms at local stations (Upper East Side, below 34th St, etc.) be constructed? That's why I think maybe the locals should travel on the original, inside tracks and when the line is upgraded to four tracks, express tracks can be added on the outside. Express stations would have side platforms with false walls (and become island platforms when upgraded) and local stops would have island platforms. That way the two express tracks can easily be added without too much major construction.
Here's a map I just drew showing what I proposed:
(lerft) Initial line (the red lines show the false wall, which would only be at the stations only, not in the tunnels)
(right) Four track service added later on
If two stations are close together originally, then they would eventually become two express stations next to each other.
So the local stations would be added later when the line is upgraded. Thanks for the graphic, it clears that up for me.
I don't think that would be a good idea. Either the future (local-express) line would have too many express stops or the initial phase (express stops only) would bypass large swaths of the areas it's supposed to be serving.
Why not build a two-track line along (say) the west half of 2nd Avenue, with island platforms at future express stations and wall platforms at future local stations? If/when express service is warranted, the line would be twinned under the east half of 2nd. (It would probably pay to complete the stations in the first phase, except for access to the not-yet-open east platforms.)
The cost is in the building, whether you use the extra trackways or not. The cost of doing 4 tracks instead of 2 is probably appreciable, tho' I don't know how much more.
The assumption is there will NEVER be enough money to build a four track line. Dumb shortsighted, corrupt come to mind. Of course the 'shot in the arm' in the present economic slump of such a pump priming expenditure would be incredibly helpful. Just a few B-2's less.
It's amazing how much this Osama thing is costing NY and the country. Yes we have to spend the money on defense and what we are doing in Afghanistan is totally necessary. But can you imagine what a waste of money it is. Just think of the money that could be used towards infastructure in this country or toowards the betterment of mankind if we didn't have to spend all this money defending ourselves against a bunch of idiots who decide they must attack us.
Amen to that...
Yes, but it wouldn't be spent on infrastructure or the betterment of mankind. No-one with any chance of being in power has the foresight to do that. It is why the two countries with the lowest transport expenditure in the civilised world are America and Britain. The French spend 6 times as much as the USA per passenger journey, the Germans 10 times as much. No American politician at present would consider such investment. It is the great flaw of monetarist economic policy.
The cost of building new underground subway lines in the city has reached between $300-400 million per mile. You are correct in that when you design in a size tunnel to hold 4 tracks you can save money, compared with adding extra tracks later; however, with transit capital budgets being strained as it is, the difference of a few billion in costs could make or break a project.
Another factor is this: New York has the largest subway system in the world in number of stations, and the second largest in track mileage, behind London, UK. If you add PATH, AirTrain and the new light rail system across the Hudson and consider that one network, then the New York region is number one in the world on all counts except ridership (Moscow carries an obscene number of people every day).
As a consequence, the amount of capital $$$ needed to maintain and rehab stations, tracks, and subway cars is much higher than at a brand new system with less than 100 route-miles on it (like Washington DC). The capital budget is $3 billion per year as it is, which has allowed things like completion of the 63rd St Connector, work on East Side Access, a complete rebuild of Stillwell Av, Jamaica Station and Atlantic Av, purchase of new subway cars at $1.4 million each, etc. etc.
I'd love to see a four track system built under Second Av. But I prefer a 2-track system over none at all, and we're the closest we've ever been to getting one.
I'd love to see a four track system built under Second Av. But I prefer a 2-track system over none at all, and we're the closest we've ever been to getting one.
I find it quite nearly obscene that they would spend all this money on a mere two track subway instead of a much more useful four-track line. Nonetheless, we'll take what we can get. The two-track system is tantalizingly close to fruition, and this is no time to fight an all-or-nothing battle.
If you can develop engineering methods that can accomplish it with less money, please proceed.
Tutor-Saliba claimed it could build Los Angeles' Red Line on $150 million per mile budget, and proceeded to screw it up royally. Everything had to be redone before the line could open. They made that claim to get the contract - but clearly couldn't actually build it with that budget.
I'd love to see a four track system built under Second Av. But I prefer a 2-track system over none at all, and we're the closest we've ever been to getting one.
I find it quite nearly obscene that they would spend all this money on a mere two track subway instead of a much more useful four-track line. Nonetheless, we'll take what we can get. The two-track system is tantalizingly close to fruition, and this is no time to fight an all-or-nothing battle.
I wonder how much more it costs to build a four-track line as compared to a two-track. The difference might not be as large as one would expect - it surely isn't twice as much.
For gigabuck capital projects, questions like this beg to be answered.
Certainly, four tracks would not be twice the price. Some costs are fixed, whatever the size of the project: planning, engineering, etc.
For cut and cover, the street's gonna get ripped up anyway, curb to curb. For bored tunnels, the actual costs here are probably doubled. There would be more concrete involved, but not 100% more.
Perhaps Joseph Chamberlain (British Politician in about 1900) said something useful about this:
"If you go £200 overdrawn, the bank will freeze your account. If you go £2,000,000,000,000 overdrawn, they'll put you on the board."
For starters, the 2nd Ave. subway is only intended to reduce the congestion of the IRT Lexington Ave. line.
What about the future terminals of the 2nd Ave. line anyway?
What about the future terminals of the 2nd Ave. line anyway?
125th on the north, apparently with provisions for a future tunnel to the Bronx.
On the south, either running into the J/M/Z BMT line *or* running under Water Street and ending near South Ferry.
You can see more at the MTA's Second Avenue Subway site.
So if they chose to align with the Nassau St. line in the near future, does this mean the closure of Canal St. (Nassau St. line) East Island platform will be suspended and that a renovation will take place, but still realign the existing Nassau St. Northbound track into the West platform?
What will they do for Fulton and Broad St. Stations?
For Fulton St. station (Nassau St. line), will they build another platform above the existing Northbound platform? I mean they can't obviously share a platform, otherwise the Nassau St. line could be congested in the Broadway portion.
So if they chose to align with the Nassau St. line in the near future, does this mean the closure of Canal St. (Nassau St. line) East Island platform will be suspended and that a renovation will take place ...
I'd be VERY surprised. The decision on which southern alignment won't be made for another year at best. First construction wouldn't start til 2004 IF the thing gets funded. And most likely the Stubway gets built first -- though post-9/11 that isn't as sure as it previously was.
So it would be 10-15 years before Second Avenue trains ran into the Nassau Line. Funding for the Canal realignment was appropriated YEARS ago. And they're not destroying platforms, just walling them off. They can always be opened up again, with new switches installed for maximum benefit to the combined lines.
"I'd be VERY surprised. The decision on which southern alignment won't be made for another year at best. First construction
wouldn't start til 2004 IF the thing gets funded. And most likely the Stubway gets built first -- though post-9/11 that isn't as
sure as it previously was."
Start calling Schumer and Clinton. The opportunity is there to nail this project down. We actually have a better opportunity now than we had before - INCREASING the chances of building the subway.
So reserve some time, and write letters to your legislators, and keep up the pressure. It really doesn't take much more time than posting on Subtalk. And you can make a difference.
Use the postal service, by the way. Email is ineffective. And then pick up the phone and call.
When are they supposed nto begin work at Canal to extend the track through. When are the platforms to close?
That won't start for quite a while. And where did you get the idea that any platforms would close?
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/bowery.html
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/canal.html
The abondonment referred to on that web site is only of one of two platforms at each station for the sake of efficiency of operations of the current J/M/Z lines and has nothing to do with the 2nd Ave subway.
Correct. However, it presents an opportunity to redesignate the abandonedplatforms as 2nd Av line platforms, should the MTA decide to connect 2nd Av trains into this tunnel.
Except that the 2nd Ave line can't make a tight enough turn from Chrystie St onto Delancey to make use of the Bowery platform (which extends east all the way to Chrystie).
I can see where the eastern Canal platform and the abandoned Nassau Loop tracks could come in handy for a Second Ave line, though. You could get all the way down to Chambers St before you had to worry about merging with the J/Z (presumably the M would head up 6th Ave as has been proposed elsewhere).
If a Second Ave. line was built, they could always re-re-align the Delancey Street tracks between Essex and Bowery so that Second Ave. trains would take over the tracks now being designated for the J/M/Z, while those three lines would use the soon-to-be-abandoned tracks on the south side of Delancey.
That would eliminate the need for a flying junction east of Bowery at Delancey, so the Second Ave. trains could turn on that level directly into the station (though it would have to be lengthened 120 feet at the west end to handle the longer trains), and the Second Ave. line would immediately have direct access to Brooklyn via the Montague tunnel, while the J/M/Z would terminate at Chambers on the east side tracks. Running a Second Ave. train via the Nassau Loop and DeKalb to Brooklyn, even if it's only during rush hours, makes more sense than the current set-up of sending the M to Bay Parkway, since it would attract more riders heading from south Brooklyn to the east side of Manhattan.
But here's the catch at Bowery: the J/Z/M platform goes all the way east to Chrystie, if not further. To merge the 2nd Ave line into the J/M/Z, you need to run it not under Chrystie (the extension of 2nd Ave below Houston), but under Sara D Roosevelt Park gradually eastward so it is under Forsyth St, one block east. Then you need to make a sharp westward turn to connect with 2 of the 4 J/M/Z tracks before you get into the Bowery station.
How expensive and difficult all of this is depends on exactly how far east the Bowery platform extends. Forsyth Street is not very far east of Chrystie. You may have to tunnel under some buildings somewhere, or extend the Bowery platform westward and demolish the east end.
By the way, somewhere or another you need some kind of a flying crossover unless you severely limit capacity. If the 2nd Ave line uses the 2 north tracks at the Bowery platform, how do you ever merge it with the J and Z by the time you get to Broad St.?
Any crossover would probably have to go between Canal and Chambers, which is a pretty good sized gap. As for the Second Ave. line itself, if the line is run near street level at Houston -- and above the F/V station, it would have to curve over into S.D. Roosevelt Park or onto Forsyth St. andyway, or else it would run right into the B/D Chrystie St. tracks and the northbound Essex/B'way Lafayette connector, which is also one level below ground at that point. The tracks would then have to pass over both of the Essex-B'way Lafayette tracks before dropping down to the level of the J/M/Z, which might entail a relocation and/or a slight raising of the east end of the Bowery platform anyway, in the same way that DeKalb was relocated and raised on the bridge track platform back in the late 1950s.
On the other hand, if the Second Ave., tracks were built below the F/V tracks at Houston, they could continue south under S.D. Roosevelt Park and betneath the Essex/B'way Lafayette tracks, and then turn west of Delancey beneath the Bowery station, not hooking up with the existing tracks until the area between Bowery and Canal. That option wouldn't utilize the four-track setup at Bowery, but as of right now there's no crying need for any Second Ave. line to have to stop between Canal and Houston Sts., unless the MTA ever builds a transfer passage between the Bowery and Grand Street stations.
Good points. I wonder how much of this the TA has worked out on paper?
Looks like you're not a humble one :-)
Arti
I had to check backto see what you meant.
I wanted to respond to J. Lee's post.
J. Lee: Good points!
I'm sorry. I interpreted the "abandonment" to mean the entire station would be abandoned - ie J service would end. I understand now what you mean.
Nothing in this plan should require outright cancellation of Nassau Street BMT service. They will be using excess tunnel capacity there. (EG J uses two out of four tracks and the Second Av subway uses two out of four tracks. Some station work will be required.
If continued service to Brooklyn is desired through an existing tunnel, that may require some changes, but that is a long way off.
I expect the following: Phase I = Stubway (63rd St-upper 2nd Av service) Phase II = service to lower Manhattan, trains turned in lower Manhattan to return uptown, with no impact on existing trains.
Phase III: Through service to Brooklyn. Different options exist. But recall that a new tunnel to lower Manhattan is being considered for LIRR. Could a new 2nd Av service tunnel be added to this?
recall that a new tunnel to lower Manhattan is being considered for LIRR. Could a new 2nd Av service tunnel be added to this?
How seriously IS this being considered? Aside from a very early Lower Manhattan Access Study on the TA site, and a handful of newspaper mentions of the possibility of a LIRR terminal downtown post-9/11, how real is this?
It's being considered as part of a downtown transit hub, including a long-range plan for PATH. Some of NY's reconstruction money could be spent on this.
It's not a sure thing, of course. But one way of increasing the chances for funding is to decide on a definite wish list and go for it.
There are other valid options, though. You are no doubt aware of them, as your posts indicate.
It's being considered as part of a downtown transit hub, including a long-range plan for PATH.
Long-range plan for PATH seems pretty limited to relocating the loop to the old Hudson Terminal site between IRT and BMT. That would connect to the 2/3-mile underground transit corridor (lined with shops) to connect WFC to PATH, N/R, 1/9 and then the Fulton-Fulton-Broadway/Nassau-Fulton complex. Don't know of anything more for PATH than that.
Some of NY's reconstruction money could be spent on [LIRR terminal].
Oh, yes, please! Frees up even MORE slots at Penn. By that time, with new Hudson tubes on the horizon into Penn AND GCT access, we could really and truly reshuffle trains around the region. (Though with 3 Manhattan terminii, scheduling would get a LOT more complicated!)
And, actually, a postscript:
(1) If there truly does get to be a LIRR tunnel, *of course* they should do it double-level (like 63rd Street) so there's a subway part. BUT, given that Second Ave isn't going to be 4-track, will they even consider spending the extra $$$? Two constituencies is better than one, of course. But ...
(2) If they choose to connect 2nd Ave to Nassau Line, it's hard to imagine ALSO constructing it so it could later turn into its own tunnel. Is there a four-track section of Nassau that could have a bellmouth inserted to an ultimate new tunnel (don't have track book here right now)? And would THAT align with any kind of useful LIRR alignment?
Please note the following:
Building a tunnel under the river offers options. Unlike the under street portion, you can:
1) Use a TBM or other method to dig.
2) Prefabricate tunnel sections in a factory and ship them on a barge to be sunk into place (this is how the 63rd Street subway/LIRR tunnel was built).
Thus, building the under-river portion of a new tunnel would not cost twice as much if you factor in four train capacity instead of two. But this does not apply to the under-street portions.
the lay up tracks outside Broad st could be used,for a new tunnel to Brooklyn or Staten Island.....
The mentions of a LIRR connection to lower Manhattan are always very vague. The MTA site suggests a connection from GCT to downtown (more expensive that the 2nd Av subway, I think), from Penn Station, or from Jamaica.
I think they are afraid to be more specific, first because of the colossal cost, and then also because there'd be a revolt if it got built before they the 2nd Ave does.
Third Avenue? From the lower level of 63rd, capturing some services (LIRR and NJT) from the 33rd-32nd tubes? Down to Bowery, Park Row to a terminus near City Hall? And you thought the 2nd Ave subway would be expensive to build.
The Atlantic Avenue option always exists, but the terminal would be on the West Side, or they would have to go way way down deep like they sometimes do in Europe. It too would be colossally expensive. And once they do what they are going to do with West St. for the WTC rebuild, this option will be largely precluded: the terminus would have to be at the Battery, perhaps on filled land, and relating poorly to the subway lines.
I'm not an LIRR rider (except on ERA Fan Trips), but were the M-1 roll signs ever used at all?
They were used for awhile on the M-3's, but not for long.
I like those. I have seen them on the front of the trains from time to time, and occassionally they're even accurate. My favorite is when an M1 or M3 (and electric car mind you) read PORT JEFFERSON. (At least I think it did, my memory may faulty.
:-) Andrew
The roll sign didn't say you didn't have to transfer.
:0)
Those LIRR roll signs were awful. They were so small that you could barely read them -- and when you could, the big letters on small signs meant that you had ridiculous abbreviations like "L Beach" and "Bab'ln". At least they were color coded. Plus, being mounted over the engineers window made them particularly difficult to read from the many island platforms on the south shore. (Shall I stick my neck out to read the sign and take the chance that this isn't an express train?)
CG
Speaking of non-electric destinations, what did the Budd turbine/electric MU's have?
Breakdowns
=)
Seriously, though, didn't those turbine units actually run in regular service for a while?
>>Speaking of non-electric destinations, what did the Budd turbine/electric MU's have<<
Bill "Newkirk" to the rescue ! I have a steamer trunk where all my rollsigns are kept. Yes, there was a Gas/Turbine rollsign in there. This sign was from the gas turbine cars that were M-1 types and not the earlier ones. There were two types of rollsigns. The cab sign had one segment, and the side had two because they had to show on the exterior and interior of the car. Here are the destinations as spelled on the sign:
PENN STATION.....white background/red letters
PENN STATION NO JAMAICA.....same as above
BROOKLYN.....white background/green letters
BROOKLYN NO JAMAICA.....same as above
HUNTERSPT AVE.....white background/black letters
HUNTERSPT AVE NO JAMAICA.....same as above
JAMAICA.....yellow background/black letters
GRAND CENTRAL.....white background/black letters
MINEOLA.....blue background/yellow letters
HICKSVILLE.....same as above
FARMINGDALE.....same as above
REPUBLIC.....same as above
RONKONKOMA.....same as above
GREENPORT.....same as above
HUNTINGTON.....blue background/white letters
NORTHPORT.....same as above
PORT JEFFERSON.....same as above
HOBOKEN.....white background/green letters
PORT JERVIS.....green background/white letters
MONROE.....same as above
OYSTER BAY.....orange background/white letters
BREWSTER.....blue background/white letters
DOVER PLAINS.....same as above
CROTON-HARMON.....green background/white letters
PEEKSKILL.....same as above
POUGHKEEPSIE.....same as above
ALBANY.....same as above
BABYLON.....same as above
PATCHPGUE.....same as above
SPEONK.....same as above
MONTAUK.....same as above
SPECIAL.....black background/white letters
NO PASSENGERS.....same as above
SHUTTLE.....same as above
JFK AIRPORT.....same as above
STEWART AIRPORT.....blue background/white letters
USDOT-UMTA.....same as above
TURBINE/ELECTRIC.....same as above
This is an identra sign, also there are a couple of white boxes so you can past on an new destination.
Bill "Newkirk"
JFK Airport? Why would it have that?
>>JFK Airport? Why would it have that?<<
Maybe they had ideas of using the old Rockaway Line for airport service. But that panned out as usual.
Also, STEWART AIRPORT!....is there a rail line running there ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Do you think they would of done something like what happened after NYCT took over the rockaway line and before the upper half was abandoned, ie lirr run specials to Howard Beach-JFK, like they did to Aqueduct, or do you think they would of tried to built another ROW? Just a hypothetorital question.
--seth
>>Do you think they would of done something like what happened after NYCT took over the rockaway line and before the upper half was abandoned, ie lirr run specials to Howard Beach-JFK, like they did to Aqueduct, or do you think they would of tried to built another ROW? Just a hypothetorital question.<<
I really don't know. They had all sorts of dreams and fantasies, but now we wound up with Airtrain. It's going to be interesting to see how Airtrain makes out with this high security alert at airports when you're spending more time on long lines than in the air traveling.
Bill "Newkirk"
Interesting. It gives a heck of an insight into what someone at the MTA was thinking at the time. Direct service from LI to Albany? JFK? Stewart Airport?
Hoboken?!?!?
It looks like the MTA had big plans back then for these units, if they turned out.
What do the M-1 and M-2 rollsigns have on them? I'd be interested to see if the M-2 rollsigns list various 'points north' of New Haven, i.e. Hartford, Springfield, New London, Providence, Boston, and if they list other destinations, noteably Waterbury and Danbury....
>>Interesting. It gives a heck of an insight into what someone at the MTA was thinking at the time. Direct service from LI to Albany? JFK? Stewart Airport?
Hoboken?!?!?<<
One idea of the Gas/Turbine set was to run not just on the LIRR, but on the Harlem and Hudson Lines. Hoboken ?!?!, Hoboken to Port Jervis (west of the Hudson).
These cars didn't have "M" Long Island or "M" Central on them, but "M" Metropolitan. They were pure experimental, just change the third rail shoes and run them somewhere else.
Bill "Newkirk"
They used to be on the sides of trains as well. All I ever saw was white (end of roll sign)
Michael
Living in Washington, DC
still remembering the LIRR
The original side and end M-1 rollsigns from 1968 (had a Kennedy Airport reading) were hooked up to an ATO system called Identra that the cars were built with like PATCO. Setting the rollsign told the car where it was going. Since ATO was never installed on the LIRR, the signs couldn't be used. They once tried, and the brakes jammed.
Only the LIRR 620 Budd Cars got it, no the 152 GE ones of 1972(including 9175-6 replacements), and I do not believe any of Metro-North's original Budd 80.
They were supposed to have been automatically controlled somehow...but never got used. Not sure if it was a system similar to what WMATA had on their original 1000-series cars (and MUNI in San Francisco has on their now-gone Boeings and the first 75 Bredas). You may see a photo here and there with the signs "in use" but they were just manually placed for publicity photography. Usually the destination reading was "PENN STATION".
I did see a list of what was on them when they were new, and they DID include destinations such as Port Jefferson, Speonk, Yaphank, and Oyster Bay. Only one of those four now has electrified service!
That's probably the one and ONLY time the LIRR did some advance planning.....
WRONG! None of them do, only dual-powered service on 3 of the 4. Oyster Bay, Speonk, and Port Jefferson.
I actually SAW the "Speonk" readings on the M-1 rolls when they were new in October, 1968...... It was DEFINITELY there.
Hey, do you think the LIRR will offer these roll signs to us Railroad historians and researchers (a.k.a "foamers") before the M-1 are hauled off to points unknown? The signs should be almost "Like New".
Those signs have long since been yanked out. During the early or mid-80's, the M-1's got their first heavy overhaul (which they were supposed to get every 5 years), that 1st one included getting them "de-sophisticated" so as to make them more maintainable.
Any remants of that Identra system were removed.
I took my first ACELA trip this morning, 2150 from 30th St to NYP.
It was smoother than I thought it would be. The conductor said it was
hard to walk through because of the tilt.
I think it is nicer than the Eurostar, but not as nice as TGV and new
bullet trains. Train ran on time, but got stuck in NYP congestion and
was ten minutes late arriving.
Compared to the congestion coming into Laguardia, 10 minutes is nothing. Gotta love the railroads.
Train ran on time, but got stuck in NYP congestion and
was ten minutes late arriving.
What happened here?
Received an ad today inviting me to subscribe to New York magazine... attached (by perforation) to the "subscription acceptance form" was a wallet subway map of Manhattan showing subway service as of December, 2001, copyright by the MTA, "used with permission". On the back is a New York street finder, also Manhattan only. Anyone else get one?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Got one on Wednesday.
Received an ad today inviting me to subscribe to New York magazine... attached (by perforation) to the "subscription acceptance form" was a wallet subway map of Manhattan showing subway service as of December, 2001, copyright by the MTA, "used with permission". On the back is a New York street finder, also Manhattan only. Anyone else get one?
We got one yesterday.
What was this some kind of mass mailing? I gor one yesterday also. The map also had the code for Manhattan addresses.
Yeah I got it. The map is outdated, tho it says Dec. 2001. It doesn't show the reopened N/R stations south of Canal.
The street address finder has a serious error, In the instructions, "Take the number of the avenue building, cancel the last digit , and add or subtract the number below" it left out the crucial step after "cancel the last digit"-- "and divide by 2". It also left out York Ave -- which is the same as Avenue A.
Shame for a magazine calling itself New York.
Nor does it have the V train, and it still shows Park Pl closed.
About a month or two ago, Sony was handing out credit-card size (when folded) maps of the Chicago Loop area as an ad for its VAIO laptops. They were being handed out on the street to commuters during the morning rush hours. I picked up a couple. Not really sure how useful it is, but my wife likes to carry a Loop area map around in her purse for when she visits the area.
-- Ed Sachs
On the news it was being broadcast that NY mag had egg on its face for missing the W and V, and not having the F changes.
There is a picture in James Clifford Greller's NYC Subway Cars pg 150 of a new R68 on the B line which was around the mid to late 1980's. I have 2 questions about this subject:
1)For how long did they tested them on the B line? Was that around the Manhattan Bridge North Side closure or before that? What were the R68 car nos. assigned to the B?.
2)What equipment was assigned to the B line at that time was it only R40 slants?
For a while in the late 80's, or early 90's the B was 100% slants.
B's were slants until about 1996. The slants went to the Q and the B's got r-68's!!!
An occasional R68 B train might have been run on the B after 12/11/88, but until the beginning of October 1997, the B was exclusively R40 slant. I never saw an R68 B during the 86-88 Broadway reroute (in fact, the B always got the crappiest cars assigned to CI at this time). An R68 B in service in the 1980's would be an extremely rare sight.
So probably the picture was taken after the reopening of the northside MannyB tracks because that R68 lead car was sporting a diamond orange B in front.
I'm not sure. I'm beginning to think this pic was staged.
What do you mean by that?
That the R68 in the pic was set for the "B" line strictly for the taking of a picture, not an actual in-service train.
The B wasn't all R40 slants at that time. I recall twice in 1994-95 that there were ocasionally R32s running on the B. Do you remember that?
Quite possible, but I dont recall that. I remember I was working on 34th Street then. The "F" was packed at East Bway. At Bway Lafayette, I would always peek out to see an express come in. Usually I got on a "D" because it was the least jammed. The "B" slants were ALWAYS sardine city I recall. So were the R-68 "Q" trains back then. Tony
Washington Post had an article about the financial situation today. Interestingly enough, the photo accompanying the article was that of an NJT train.
Along with the Long Island Railroad's Eastside line,shouldnt the T.A create space for this weel know route? The oppurtunities are perfect,and you would have to be nuts to pass this one up... any comment?
The bellmouth from the 63rd Street line for the super-express bypass trackage is still there under 41 Av in Queens. Write to the TA and advocate for it. Write to the Governor, and post the answer here.
Ron,how do you feel about this line? From some of your post,it seems that you would be for it,and being a Queens resident,it would most likely work in your favor,as well as the thousands of other Queens blvd riders... so now that the funds are flowing, what could be done other than someone getting killed on a train packed like sardines to convince the MTA,T.A, the Long Island[to share the space],the State of New York and whom ever else that this route is needed?
I'm generally for it, especially since an above-ground bypass with few stops (or no stops?) till Forest Hills would be relatively cheap to build (relative to $400 million per mile for new tunnel, that is).
On the other hand, if it were up to me, I'd put a bellmouth at the northern side of 41 Avenue and put trains on a new line running east-west north of Queens Blvd, to serve areas between the 7 line and the Queens Blvd corridor. These are places which have never seen a train, and could draw ridership from folks who might otherwise pack into the other existing lines..
Since there are no serious sponsors, though, and MTA might be receptive to a renewed bypass idea - hey, go for what you think realistically you can get...
Thank you...
Instead of sending it to Forest Hills, my thoughts would have sent it via Sunnyside into 65th St to capture all local service. The local service west of 65th would be extended east on a new line along Northern Blvd to Shea Stadium.
During rush hour, for the few who really wanted a local stop between Roosevelt and QPlaza, they would have had to taken and express to QP and then backtracked. Nonrush, all trains would operate via the existing IND.
The new service out on Northern Blvd would seriously relieve the Flushing line. Roosevelt would not be quite as jammed, and all trains would go express from that point.
That's a nice idea. I'd ride a train like that.
Instead of sending it to Forest Hills, my thoughts would have sent it via Sunnyside into 65th St to capture all local service.
More like a commuter train (Metro North Hudson Line, for example), which has (electric) locals before Croton-Harmon, and (diesel) expresses that express to Croton then go local.
then what would be the point of it being called ''the Queens Bypass''or SUPEREXPRESS LINE''?
None at all. Mine is a different proposal. Call it the 'Northern Blvd option'.
Cheers--I live on Northern and would gladly take a tax increase if it meant a subway downstairs.
Dan
Then you should check out my expansion plan. It has a very similar transit alternative for the using the 63rd Street tunnel for a new trunk line under Northern Blvd.
Where would it end up going to?
The 63rd Street tunnel would form the Northern Blvd. trunk line at 35th Street and Northern Blvd.--using the bellmouth in the eastbound tunnel and curving north. A connection to the Manhattan bound tunnel will have to be constructed. the four tracks form at Northern and 35th, proceed up 35th to 31st Avenue and curve east onto 31st Ave. to about 54th or 55th Streets. Then the tracks turn onto Northern Blvd proper and remain there until it reaches Little Neck. Branches in Flushing, one north to the Bronx, serving Whitestone before going under the East River and another south along Union Street, then Kissena Blvd. to 73rd avenue then Union Tnpk. to Glen Oaks. I even had the mainline enter Nassau County and an additional southern branch along Springfield Blvd.
This is essentially my version too, tho' it's two or three track, and only to Shea Stadium. It makes 4 or 5 stops on Northern Blvd between Shea and the location of the current Northern Blvd/54th St. station; this station is probably destroyed to build the switch between the Northern Blvd line and the current Queens IND. During rush hour local trains coming from the 65th St. station go express to Queensbridge; trains from Northern Blvd continue along to service the remaining local stations to Qns Plaza. Nonrush hours, one local continues to Queens Plaza, while another turns to Queensbridge.
The result is a serious fix to congestion on both the Queens IND and IRT. Roosevelt will still be crowded, but most people on the local trains are likely to stay in place. Service along Northern Blvd would capture pedestrians now headed south to the Flushing line, as well as pick up further passengers at Shea Stadium, where there would be a cross-platform transfer to the Flushing line.
Basically, the R and G would go back as they were before at Queens Plaza, but would go out to Northern Blvd. Anything more would require another East River tunnel.
Northern Blvd is pretty flat, reasonably wide, and not that densely developed. 32nd and 34th Avenues would become one way. Construction would be bottom-dollar cut-and-cover. South of Northern, you get progressively larger apt houses as you move down to Roosevelt Avenue. North of Northern is mainly one-and-two family houses. The development along Northern is low rise. A new subway line here would doubtless spark major redevelopment, and soon enough, the new subway line would be maxed out. You'd need to build it with an eye to connecting to a new East River connecetor.
>> Northern Blvd is pretty flat, reasonably wide, and not that densely developed. 32nd and 34th Avenues would become one way. Construction would be bottom-dollar cut-and-cover. South of Northern, you get progressively larger apt houses as you move down to Roosevelt Avenue. North of Northern is mainly one-and-two family houses. The development along Northern is low rise <<
Sounds like a perfect ROW for light rail. It could run from MainSt. past Shea, the length of Northern, with subway conections at Broadway to the V/R, and at Queens Plaza to everything. And, as long as we're in the realm of fantasy, we could extend it into Manhattan via the lower level of the 63rd St. tunnel, or even over the 59th St. Bridge (outer roadways), and terminating in the still extant former trolley terminal underneath 2d Avenue.
You could even build a branch up 94th St. into LaGuardia.
Sounds like a perfect ROW for light rail.
Take it from someone who lives on it, Northern Blvd. is one of the worst candidates I can think of for light rail. It's seven lanes wide in a configuration of 1 parking, 2 driving, 1 turning, 2 driving and 1 parking. It is a major truck route (LIE alternate, also accepts traffic from the Triboro Bridge and funnels it to the Whitestone and Van Wyck Expressways) and more often then not is very heavily trafficked. There is no room for a light rail line. Besides, it's already served along its entire length by buses. The Q66-Northern Blvd serves between Main St. and Northern Blvd. Station on the R-V-G and the Q13 and Q12 serve between Main St. and (I think) the county line, terminating at Main St./Flushing on the 7. It'd be nice if one of these went through to Manhattan, but adding a lightrail ROW would destroy the traffic patterns.
Dan
and as a transit preference advocate so what?
Which brings us back to the utility of adapting the old Forest Hills superexpress proposal to that of a subway under Northern Blvd.
To restate it, all Manhattan-bound rush hour locals from 65th St. on would go express to Queensbridge. The express tracks would come in at approximately 55th St. The old G-R local configuration out of Queens Plaza would be restored as far as the current Northern Blvd. station, but would branch off Broadway onto Northern Blvd and continue east to Shea stadium. Nonrush, locals from 65th St as well as Northern Blvd trains, would continue along the present route, serving both Queens Plaza and Queensbridge.
It's an elaborate switch in the vicinity of the present Northern Blvd. station, where the existing express tracks diverge from the local tracks. It likely involves the destruction of the current Northern Blvd. station.
The new superexpress rush hour run via the local tracks to/from Roosevelt-Midtown would compare quite favorably to the present express run via Queens Plaza; there would be considerably less changing of trains at Roosevelt. From Roosevelt via Queensbridbge, it would be 5 stops to Rocky Center, compared to the 4 via Queens Plaza. The new service under Northern Blvd. would appreciably relieve congestion on both the Queens IND and Flushing lines.
Of all the fantasy lines spoken of here, this is one of the genuinely practical. The benefits are obvious, it's not too difficult to build, nor is too colossally expensive.
Of all the fantasy lines spoken of here, this is one of the genuinely practical. The benefits are obvious, it's not too difficult to build, nor is too colossally expensive.
Which all goes to show the intransigence and pennypinching which stops the diggers moving in now.
In 1991, the MTA made a strong push to get funding for the Queens Super Express. A special train was prepared for Mario the Magnificent to ride to see what the super express would mean to Queens Blvd. subway riders. His emminence never showed up - in essence telling the Queens subway riders, "DROP DEAD". Of course he also fought against the death penalty so I guess vicious felons had a greater priority in his mind.
It can still be built. The question is, for Queens-bound riders, how to put together an effective coalition to get it done?
It's not easy. Even getting 63rd Street completed involved Claire Shulman and other Queens pols (except Julia Harrison, of course) really laying it on the line.
The effort to get Second Av funded involved: A committed effort by the Manhattan Borough President and a large task force/coalition, public support obtained from state legislators in all boroughs, an Assembly Speaker willing to go head to head with the Senate majority leader and the Governor, and a situation where there was virtually no NIMBY and no significant public dissent.
A Queens Super Express, done above ground most of the way, would need a committed, united effort by Queens pols, an early crushing of any NIMBY cries, and carrots in the form of trading cards in the legislature that Pataki and the Senate Majority Leader need. Of course, having the new Assembly Speaker sign off on this would be critical.
The super express, under the original plan would have branched off at Woodhaven Blvd., then follow the LIRR ROW through Sunnyside Yd. into 63rd St.. The plan also included a large storage facility in Sunnyside as well. Since most of the line would be over existing RR ROW, the NIMBYs would have little to complain about.
Thanks for helping me on that.
The problem I see with the Queens Super Express is its limited usefulness in increasing capacity. AFAIK, it is planned as single track. This would have one or other of the following problems:
- an actual decrease in capacity for those living along the busy Queens Boulevard line
- a hell of a lot of trains at termini with nowhere to go.
Therefore I see a solution with a couple of new full scale lines across Queens, one slightly further North, the other slightly further South in relation to Queens Boulevard, as distinctly preferable.
It would provide 15 tph increase in capacity in the rush hour direction. Right now, city-bound in rush hour, Queens Blvd has 2 tracks east of Continental, but they have to funnel into 1, namely the express track at Continental. A super-express could bypass that track and feed the currently underused 63rd street tunnel.
Once in Manhattan, there are 3 possibilities to absorb those 15 tph: the 6th Ave local track, the Boradway express tarck at 57th St, and the broadway local track at 57th street.
Don't forget the planed 2 ave line going south to lower Manhattan... thats the purpose of the of the bell mopuths in the 63 st tunnel walls out side Lexington ave station...
Would the bypass track have had a second passing track of at least one full train length?
Sorry. I (a) don't understand the question and (b) don't know the details of the plan for the super express. I was just trying to explain how a super express that splits off east of Continental on its inbound route can provide significant additional capacity.
The question was this: When you have a single track line of some length, you often put in a passing track of at least one train length. Thus, a train coming in one direction yields to an oncoming train by pulling into the passing track, or siding, and waiting until the through train passes. Then the waiting train runs onto the main track and continues on its way.
In reviewing the nycsubway.org historical text, I now see that the intent was a peak direction third track, similar in function to the 7 or Concourse lines.
Assuming the trains merged into the Queens Blvd. corridor, a passing track would not be needed.
One item missing from that discussion was the local connection.
If MTA were to build the bypass today, the use of 2 tracks could a) Provide for express service in both directions; b) eliminate the need for the tunnel merge. Of course, that means that anyone coming from Jamaica Estates, Jamaica or Kew Gardens stations wanting to use the Super Express would have to walk a block to transfer...
I believe the alignment of this 5th Queens Blvd Line track would take it under Queens Boulevard between the Kew Gardens station and somewhere in Sunnyside, then connect to the 41st Avenue/63rd Street tunnel.
That's quite a stretch. I guess exactly where was the subject of some debate.
I recall much urging being conveyed to the MTA to provide a local connection from western Queens tracks to the 63rd Street line. This was expressed as the southern bellmouth on the 41 Av tunnel.
Without a storage facility at the Manhattan end, a single peak-direction track doesn't increase capacity at all, since all trains have to share the outbound tracks.
You are correct.
"Without a storage facility at the Manhattan end, a single peak-direction track doesn't increase capacity at all, since all trains have to share the outbound tracks."
However, there is the option of having the super-express continue on into Brooklyn in the morning rush, and originate in Brooklyn in the evening. As discussed in other parts of this thread, there is spare capacity distributed over the 6th Ave and Broadway lines that would allow these additional trains to go on into Brooklyn.
My point exactly (when the ManBridge comes back on line). Even at present there's unused capacity because of the shortage of trainsets (look at all those trains they turn back at 2nd Av instead of sending on to Brooklyn via Rutgers).
I'm sure Brooklyn residents would be thrilled with all the empty trains they'd see running the wrong way!
And how do you get the trains back from Manhattan? Alternatively, where are you going to store them until the afternoon peak?
Material on the subway.org site includes text which states the TA intended for the bypass trains to merge back into Queens Blvd. main tracks past Forest Hills. If built, the extra trains would lay up either on the ample storage tracks east of 179, or in the 3000 foot tunnel behind the E terminal at Jamaica Center.
I am assuming the merge would not be in time to send trains into the Jamaica Yard leads...
Okay you have somewhere to put these one-diretcion super-express trains in Queens, but look at the morning. Train after train runs to Manhattan along the super-express track, through the 63rd St tunnel, then onto either the Broadway or 6th Av Lines.
I don't think there's anywhere for these trains to go without BIG service cuts. Here are the options:
- via 6th Av and Rutgers (no surplus capacity on 6th Av)
- via 6th Av and Chrystie St (no surplus capacity on 6th Av, probably train length problem too)
- via 6th Av and 6th Av Extension (no surplus capacity on 6th Av, mess at W4 St theory)
- via Broadway and Manny B (you must be joking - more trains on the Manny B?!?)
- via Broadway and Montague (still no room in the tunnel)
- via Broadway to the centre track at Whitehall (the centre track isn't that long)
- via Broadway to City Hall (Lower Level) (somehow has to get onto local tracks, but might conceivably work)
Any bright ideas anyone?
Maximum speed is...........40 MPH (about 60 kph.) CI Peter
Maximum speed is...........40 MPH (about 60 kph.)
Who cares about kilometres anyway? It's only a silly unit the French and their mates use.
Sorry my friend...I get a little confused here in the Anglican States of America. Right/left hand drive, inches/centimeters, kilos/pounds, dollars/Euros. Problem is that we all fouled up on an accurate unit of measure....decimal inches is even worse. As for my R142 trainsets, I was highway driving at exactly 40 MPH in the Bronx to simulate the ride.....it is slow indeed R142 V7.0. The makeup is in how fast the conductor opens and closes the doors. CI Peter
Yeh well you can safely use American terms in England and they'll be vaguely right. We have miles, inches, pounds (though we tend to group them into stone (1st=14lb)), the other type of Pounds (£) and we drive on the left. The only real difference is in liquid measure where we use pints and gallons, but ours are slightly bigger.
Europeans (which the British are NOT) use anything divisible by 10, but at least they drive on the right.
>>>Europeans (which the British are NOT)...<<<
Why is that? I always considered England (and Ireland, for that matter) part of Europe. Please educate me.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why is that? I always considered England (and Ireland, for that matter) part of Europe. Please educate me.
Well, the first thing is that England and Britain are different things. Yes, 85% of the British population live in England, but by confusing them you upset the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish.
Britain is part of the European Union but has secured opt-outs on certain significant things including the Social Chapter and the Euro. European institutions don't actually do much at all, except being paid lots of money. So we still have the Pound Sterling and we don't have some of the extremely silly European employment legislation (Have you noticed how the French are always on strike?). Most of the British public are very sceptical about all things European. The point of Europe for Britain is to maintain an uniquely independent position of economic success (the 4th largest economy on Earth for a country with a population of under 60 million is absurdly good), neither being European or American, and maintaining separate foreign policy.
Britain is ridiculously powerful for such a small country, still commanding an odd respect among other nations. Plus it is the only Western country willing to stand by America in most situations. It is mildly amusing seeing Osama bin Laden refer to America and Britain as the big and little satans. In reality, Britain is much more American than European, although keeping a certain distance.
One must always remember that all major British cities sustained considerable damage from WWII. Britain does not like big wars. Such thins have well and truly messed up Britain twice in a hundred years. As such, there is a European element as well.
Hopefully this clarifies Britain as being clearly different from Europe. Ireland is another matter. They are a lot more pro-Europe, because there is an anti-British strand of opinion.
To put it another way, the English speaking world begins at the English Channel. The Brits have far more in common with US'uns than those across the Channel or North Sea (the Dutch excepted; they're quite different, but more like us than the rest of Europe combined).
Thank You for the outstanding clarification,
Peace,
ANDEE
One must always remember that all major British cities sustained considerable damage from WWII. Britain does not like big wars. Such thins have well and truly messed up Britain twice in a hundred years.
The same can be said, in spades, about certain continental European countries as well.
Ireland is another matter. They are a lot more pro-Europe, because there is an anti-British strand of opinion.
For reasons that Brits are often startlingly blind to ... the Irish in English jokes inevitably occupy the place that Polish people and racial minorities have long occupied in American jokes: the butt.
The British attitude toward Europe is probably still best summed up by a famous headline from decades ago: "Fog over Channel, Continent Cut Off"
For reasons that Brits are often startlingly blind to ... the Irish in English jokes inevitably occupy the place that Polish people and racial minorities have long occupied in American jokes: the butt.
Except you can't get away with telling Irish jokes now. Plus Northern Ireland is ironically the most pro-British part of the UK, much to the distaste of those who want a united Ireland!
Northern Ireland is ironically the most pro-British part of the UK, much to the distaste of those who want a united Ireland!
Ummmmmm ... no. A numerical majority of Northern Ireland residents, perhaps, yes. But a major subset of Northern Ireland residents is in favor of a range of changes to the current situation, ranging from closer affiliation between Northern Ireland and Eire to an ultimate reunion of the six counties with the rest of the island.
But we REALLY shouldn't get into THAT discussion on this board. I'll shut up now.
But a major subset of Northern Ireland residents is in favor of a range of changes to the current situation, ranging from closer affiliation between Northern Ireland and Eire to an ultimate reunion of the six counties with the rest of the island.
Led by that arch-terrorist Gerry Adams. If he'd succeded in blowing up the Canary Wharf Tower, you'd think him as bad as bin Laden. The only way the 6 counties could reunite with the other 26 would be as a Dominion or a Commonwealth, but never as an Independent Republic. Yes, I think the way some people march around in bowler hats and orange sashes and go on about a battle over 300 years agois a bit sad, but at least they aren't trying to carve up my country and blow up the largest office building in London.
Britain is part of the European Union but has secured opt-outs on certain significant things including the Social Chapter and the Euro. European institutions don't actually do much at all, except being paid lots of money.
For all the jokes about the overpaid, coffee-drinking bureaucrats at the MTA headquarters, or even at the NYC Board of Education, they're said to be sheer workaholics when compared to the EU bureaucrats in Brussels!
For all the jokes about the overpaid, coffee-drinking bureaucrats at the MTA headquarters, or even at the NYC Board of Education, they're said to be sheer workaholics when compared to the EU bureaucrats in Brussels!
At least your education system teaches people as best it can to be good Americans. That is more than can be said for anyone else's, with the possible exception of Germany in the period 1933-1945.
You haven't heard the best of it yet. Britain elects 83 Members of the European Parliament. Guess what powers the European Parliament has? To debate, pontificate about irrelevancies but not actually do anything, vote out the whole European Commission (not individual Commissioners). The European Commission just writes directives messing up everyones life - for instance you have to buy 0.568 litres of beer not a pint, bananas must be straight to a certain dimension, you have to throw a certain amount of fish back into the sea after you've caught and killed it (allegedly to preserve fish stocks, but more likely the Dutch and German's fishing "industry"), and generally regulate our businesses out of existence.
A majority of the British public are against all this European rubbish, but they are stupid enough to vote against the only parties opposed to it. They elected the Labour Party, despite the Conservative Party's pledge to renegotiate with Europe. Even in Northern Ireland, the UUP (the Conservative Party in disguise) lost seats. Where is the logic in all that? I suppose it is the first rule of democracy that the people vote the wrong way!
A majority of the British public are against all this European rubbish, but they are stupid enough to vote against the only parties opposed to it. Where is the logic in all that? I suppose it is the first rule of democracy that the people vote the wrong way!
Or that what people tell pollsters varies from how they actually vote ... which to me is the essence and the delight of democracy, finding out what people ACTUALLY do in the voting booth!
Do you get the same amount of McDonalds FRENCH Fries in a cup as we do? CI Peter
You mean the Brits would deign to eat Frog Fries??
No, American Fries like we do........anyone who consumes 'frites' with vinegar or eats 'blood pie' deserves to be stuck in an R142 for an hour. It's just the measurement thingy...are 'Brits' so unworldly that they just don't get enough fries in their McDonalds or Wendys. CI Peter
The last time I was in a Brit MacDonalds, the sign called them french fries, but the customers and help alike resolutely called them chips.
MacDonalds in Quebec is hilarous. The first time you see 'Poulet McCroquettes', and after the few seconds it takes to figure out what this is, you all but double over in laughter. These are McNuggets. Un hambourgois avec fromage (if I'm spelling it right) is almost as good. Montreal has a nice metro, tho'.
pimplemous avec alcool.
>>>These are McNuggets.<<<
I have always wondered...What part of the chicken does a McNugget come from?
Peace,
ANDEE
Not any part we'd like to think about, I'm afraid :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Either a McBlock or a McWedge. But (RCO) Revenue Chicken Operations and (DCD) Division of Chicken Equipment can't agree on which.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm sitting in tears laughing. How can I bring RCO or DCD into work when the guys I work with don't understand "Kursk' or 'thankyouverrrymuch?' I guess the lone Anglican American at 239th will remain alone humor wise. CI Peter, sinker of subs and smacker of turtle mush curry.
I have always wondered...What part of the chicken does a McNugget come from?
"Mechanically separated chicken parts." That means, I believe, tiny scraps of meat that adhere to bones after chickens are cut up in the processing plants, and which are separated from the bones via certain devices.
Who says it comes from a chicken?
Yeah, but Farthings,Pence, and Shillings are Long GON and even the Pound Sterling has been replaced by the Euro. The British do TV really good, though, to those who disagree, I say two words EMMA PEEL
even the Pound Sterling has been replaced by the Euro.
No, it hasn't. Britain is one of three countries in the European Economic Community that is NOT participating in the Euro. There's likely to be a vote in the next few years as to whether this policy should change, but handicapping is too close to call at the moment.
No-one would call a vote, certainly not in the near future. The last opinion poll was 72% No, 29% Yes, 3% Undecided/Wouldn't Say.
before anyone points it out, it was 25% yes
No-one would call a vote, certainly not in the near future. The last opinion poll was 72% No, 25% Yes, 3% Undecided/Wouldn't Say.
I suspect these figures pre-date the successful introduction of Euro currency (notes & coins) that started this month. I've seen some news stories since then that the numbers have slightly improved for conversion. That said, however, your point is still largely true -- Brits are generally suspicious of surrendering control over their currency to a European governing body.
(As a schoolboy who grew up calculating in L.s.d. I still miss "old sterling" ... decimalization was the first step toward Eurosameness!)
>>> decimalization was the first step toward Eurosameness! <<<
In the spirit of give them an inch, they will take a meter, the next thing you know it will be said that the Brits drive on the wrong side of the road. :-)
Tom
Actually my figures were a week after the "succesful" snarl up of the Austrian cash machines, save for me mistyping them.
Pity people now think LSD is a hallucinogen!
The Pound and the Penny are still there, although the £1 note has been superseded by the £1 coin, except in Scotland. Farthings are indeed long gone (1967 I think). The Shilling unofficially remained until 1995 when they reduced the size of the Five Pence Piece (the B*stards - the new ones are so easy to lose and I liked using money minted in the 1950's plus it looked nicer - you didn't find much from before that because it didn't circulate as they were actually made of silver until 1948), hence removing all the remaining One Shilling coins from circulation. The Two Shilling coin was replaced at about the same time.
I collect the old large pennies, have darned near all of them after Queen Victoria. If you have a source for these pennies by date, let me know, I'd like to finish it (for those who aren't familiar, those pennies are as big as a half dollar) I love Sovereigns, as well and gave one to my wife as a wedding gift can't afford to collect those by date, however.
Quite a lot of people kept the old pennies as weights in their kitchens. Their weight worked out quite well in Imperial measurements. In the reign of Queen Victoria, the design was adopted which everyone knows about. Before that there was a "cart wheel" design. Of course these are hard to come by as they were in heavy circulation and the middle had an uncanny knack of falling out.
>> Who cares about kilometres anyway? It's only a silly unit the French and their mates use. <<
The USA is the about only backward country in the world that refuses to adopt the metric system, a superior system of measurement. I long for the day when I don't have to trek to Canada to bring home decent thermometers, scales, and rulers. No matter-- the metric system has already made significant inroads into American life (soda, wine, pharmaceuticals, film, etc.) and will continue its relentless course. It will take a long time, but in the end, it will win. It has to, the same way the Second Avenue subway and the LIRR GCT connector and a host of other subway and rail projects have to be built in the end.
HEAR! HEAR!
Also you don't need to go to Canada for good measurements now. Almost all containers use dual measure now, thermometers are both ºF and ºC (I would prefer K and R, but that's just me) and I got a kilogram bath scale at Ikea.
Unfortunately, some things didn't change over successfully. When 20 oz plastic soda bottles were introduced to replace 16 oz glass ones, they had a golden oppurtunity to go for exactly 750 CCs. When glass apple juice bottles were recently replaced with easy grip plastic ones, they also didn't metrify them.
The USA is the about only backward country in the world that refuses to adopt the metric system
The thing abt the USA is the Pint is too small - only 16oz unlike the 20oz Imperial Pint. I'd much rather have a British Pint of beer!
Yhe beer itself is better as well.
Thanks! I certainly enjoy it...
Look again. Even the 63rd connection doesn't max out the unused capacity in Manhattan. The extra trains would all go to the Coney Island or Pitkin yards.
The Second Avenue Subway plan includes expanding 38th Street Yard to store more passenger trains.
David
You're right - that is why I would have opted for two tracks, not just one.
Or even stop messing around and build a second trunk line across Queens.
I like your solution. The Long Island Expressway should have had a train running either under it or along the median (or combination of both). The TA did plan one.
On, under or over. I recall reading that, back in the 70s, they were planning on a 48th St line (maybe 49th) to service it -- right after they completed the 2nd Ave subway.
Never say never. It could happen one day.
Sounds great! How far along it did they plan a line? It'd be cool if it were 262nd St or something, even better if it were the LIRR at Roslyn!
Re a line along the LIE:
I don't know what the exact plans were.
Were they to build it today, Cunningham or Alley Pond Park would be a reasonable terminus (where there would be a yard). Such a line would seriously relieve congestion on the Flushing and Queens IND. If you built it 3 track, you could have some awesomely fast express runs.
While the Queens portion would be mostly elevated, it would still be very expensive. $15 billion?
While the Queens portion would be mostly elevated, it would still be very expensive. $15 billion?
Well, you can't construct a brick for 5 bucks. It doesn't sound an outrageous expense.
Can't you make a brick for a P?
could make one to throw at the next person to make a bad joke about the P train ;)
that particular line was moved to Jewel ave,and terminated at Parsons Blvd.
that particular line was moved to Jewel ave,and terminated at Parsons Blvd. It diverged at 71 ave,ran through the Jamaica yard to Jewel.
Once the Manhattan Bridge is fixed there is huge excess capacity. Let's assume you put the N back onto the south tracks and the B and D use the north tracks.
You spare capacity is:
6th Ave local tracks: 5 tph (F is 15, V is 10)
6th Ave express tracks: 10 tph (I'm guessing B is 8 tph and D is 12).
Broadway express tracks: 14 tph (I'm guessing N is 8 and Q Brighton local is 8)
Broadway local tracks: 20 (R is 10, M is 8, so you can turn 10 at Whitehall and send 10 through Montague tunnel).
6th Ave local tracks: 5 tph (F is 15, V is 10)
Well, that's not much use. You can say sod 3 of those for a start so that reliable service can be maintained. That would be 2 tph.
6th Ave express tracks: 10 tph (I'm guessing B is 8 tph and D is 12).
Better, but you would never get 10 tph more on in New York. Maybe in Paris.
Broadway express tracks: 14 tph (I'm guessing N is 8 and Q Brighton local is 8)
That seems the best option as you present it. I am just slightly concerned as to what would happen to the 2nd Av trains (via 63rd St) then if they ever appear. The other problem is that I have read on another post that the Q will be increased to 12 tph. That only leaves, theoretically, 10 tph to play with, minus delays.
Broadway local tracks: 20 (R is 10, M is 8, so you can turn 10 at Whitehall and send 10 through Montague tunnel).
This is the most problematic. You can't turn them, as they don't have a track to return on. I'm not sure as to what the situation would be once you hit De Kalb either. Plus, do you really want to whizz through Queens then become the R-train?!?
You can't assume that all service will remain exactly as is, except for the addition of this one train. The numbers above are the total service between Brooklyn and Midtown. Any number of re-arrangements are possible to make room for nice chunks that a super-express could use. You could add 2 V trains and subtract 2 Rs, as an example. You could make the N local to allow this train to be express, etc. This whole idea is so speculative that I don't see the point of making a detaild plan; I was just pointing out that the capacity is there.
Even if you say max 27 tph per track, and 12 for the Q, you still have a total of 23 tph to rearrange. (I also have trouble believing the Brighton line needs an increase from the admittedly currently inusfficient 18 to as many as 24).
By the way, back when there was an EE from Whitehall to Continental, significant numbers of trains (I'm guessing 8-10 tph) turned around at Whitehall. They come in from the downtown track to the center track, and turn around heading from the center track onto the uptown.
There were two local Brooklyn papers I found today that carried a story about BHRA needing to cough up $98,000 or DOT would not approve Phase III of trolley line development. Apparently, DOT wants to see the money by Friday (today).
I am not sure about the details, but sounds like DOT is trying to stall the BHRA progress. If Phase III is not approved, Bob's trolley line will likely not go beyond the Red Hook area.
I hope things get worked out so BHRA does not get 'shortchanged'.
If anyone has access to 'The Brooklyn Daily Eagle' (Thur. Jan. 10) or 'The Brooklyn Paper' (Jan. 14). The articles are on the covers of both. The Eagle is a daily and the Paper is a weekly.
BMTman
Why does the DOT need nearly a hundred thousand dollars? Is this a tax or a fee of some sort?
-Robert King
DOT is planning to build a traffic "roundabout" here in Voorheesville that we neither WANT nor NEED ... the cost of this project from hell is WELL in excess of the cash needed for the BHRA ... residents of the village overwhelmingly voted it down and yet DOT (which has an office here) INSISTS upon doing it anyway.
Stop this project here and there's plenty of cash for the trolley out of existing funds down there ... we don't WANT a "traffic roundabout" otherwise known as a whirling dervish of death ...
DOT is planning to build a traffic "roundabout" here in Voorheesville that we neither WANT nor NEED
Well ... the DOT replaced the existing traffic circle off Exit 19 of the Thruway, and the whole area reacted exactly the same way. The old big-radius roundabout had higher than average accidents. People bitched, moaned, screamed, whined, complained, wrote to their representatives, etc. And the DOT didn't help by opening it six weeks before the signs arrived (it has 5 radial exits that include the Thruway, the road to the Kingston-Rhinecliff Bridge, 2 different ways into the city AND Route 28 west from Ulster to Delaware County). Those six weeks were a disaster.
However. It's now done. It looks great, complete with local bluestone around the plantings. AND, it's doing EXACTLY what they wanted -- it has reduced accidents substantially.
Moral: The DOT is no friend of trains (see my earlier posts on their obstruction of the CMRR's Route 28 level crossing which has been funded for several years now), BUT they're good at the road-building and design part of what they do.
I remember the old whirling dervish of doom in Kingston quite well. Got nailed in it myself. But at least there, there's actual TRAFFIC. Here in our sleepy little village of 2000, it connects Rte 155 which has maybe 30-40 cars an hour to 85A which has a little bit more than that. And of course the turnoff to a small shopping center where there HAVE been a few left turn events isn't going to be helped at all with cars zooming blindly out of that circle right into that left turn.
I'd really rather the money for this "improvement" was spent somewhere useful, like down in Brooklyn or anywhere else. Our little village all agrees on this - the vote went 83-13 ... not often do small towns find themselves in THAT much agreement on anything. :)
Here in our sleepy little village of 2000 ... the vote went 83-13
Was the village able to kill the plan? Knowing the DOT, I'd be surprised. You can often modify their designs (Saugerties got blue slate sidewalks the length of the village in their rebuild of 212 from the Thruway) but rarely quash projects altogether.
Back on topic, that rebuild was interesting 'cause they widened a cut through a slate shelf to cross the West Side Line. Makes the road a much straight shot, and you can actually SEE where you're going. But, they designed it very, very carefully so it ended up at the tracks in exactly the same place so they didn't have to mess with the level crossing. Could the DOT be scared of the RRs? (That line is so heavily used for freights that I can't imagine shutting it down even for a day .... )
DOT told us all to go to hell, we're getting the damn thing whether we want it or not ... such is DOT ... and yeah, the railroads do have an ability to get the feds involved. That's probably the why there.
>>> DOT told us all to go to hell, we're getting the damn thing whether we want it or not <<<
Robert Moses lives!!! :-)
Tom
They call DOT regional managers "warlords" ... and do so for a reason. Nice to know that a little piece of Al Queda rules in NYS. I sure do wish though that our little insurance claim tilt-a-whirl could be cashed in so trolleys could roam Brooklyn again ...
They call DOT regional managers "warlords" ... and do so for a reason. Nice to know that a little piece of Al Queda rules in NYS.
Uhh, Selkirk ... I enjoy our chats, and you have great knowledge even if it's expressed differently than I'd choose.
But please ... saying NYS-DOT employees are equal to Al Quaeda is too much. Things are a little raw still here in NYC. That's offensive to the employees, and to everyone who suffered on 9/11. I know it's hyperbole, but still -- going too far. IMHO.
Sorry ... what DOT's trying to pull here has us kinda raw too. But you're right. My apologies ...
BUT they're good at the road-building and design part of what they do
Haven't been on the LIE in the last 3 years, I take it?
Wrong DOT. NYCDOT and NYSDOT are distinct agencies.
Whoops ... I keep forgetting about NYC's penchant for duplicating state agencies to "increase the juice" ... been 30 years. :)
NYC's penchant for duplicating state agencies to "increase the juice"
In this case, the "duplication" is highly warranted.
I shudder to think what would happen with the Albany-based guys, say, repairing the Manhattan Bridge. "Tear it down, build a 16-lane structure for future projected traffic needs with nested cloverleafs on both sides, and get rid of those damn trains, they just get in the way of the cars .... "
Heh. While anything's possible, there's a number of state agencies in New York that aren't duplicated. I'd bet that they probably WOULD remove the trains from all of the bridges, and see that it's done after TUNNELS replaced those connections. But in the economic times ahead, ain't much going to be done other than the swinging of the axes. I alluded to this here last week. I have friends still at the legislature and Division of the Budget ... and I'm hearing MAJOR cuts across the board in excess of 20% *everywhere* including NYFD ... no money from our Shrub means no money for anything else. Feds did diddle for us and now we get to pay the price for voting wrong. But again, I'm headed way off topic so I'll stop. But it'll give you an idea of why I have been SO angry lately with our porcine swine in office ...
It would appear that George Pataki has squeezed as much money out of us in non-income tax ways (e.g. it now cost you a special penality just to show up in Traffice Court). He's got a big budget problem & doesn't want to raise taxes ... can you Tom Gulotta ?
This is happening in the City departments too, it started while Giuliani was still in office & ain't going to get any better. At the MTA/TA they had a big budget hole before any of the problems related to Sept. 11th, it has just gotten worse.
Mr rt__:^)
What's even more spectacular about the Paturkey unit is that last year, there WAS NO budget ... legislature never did it and Paturkey played three monkeys refusing to discuss it. Budget was due in APRIL and it never happened. Now of course, the lacking budget was the result of mid-SEPTEMBER but hey, who's counting?
But not to worry, the surplus as a result of not having a budget is going to be distributed as a corporate tax rebate. Meanwhile, for those who smoke, cigs will go up another 35 cents or so to cover the losses. Does anybody STILL smoke? Maybe a mirror tax. Yeah, that's the ticket. :)
Or, instead of a mirror tax, they could just follow the old, now discontinued, British example and introduce a window tax.
-Robert King
New Jersey calls em 'traffic circles.' Only a dozen or so left in the state....replacements are 'right hand turn only' and take you miles out of the way on highways with LA barriers. The problem is that drivers are so damn stupid that they don't realise if you miss your exit you can go around again. A little one still exists in Netcong NJ that has traffic light controls....a busy afternoon and you may wait five minutes to leave the Circle Mobil gas station. CI Peter
Actually, there are over 70 left in the state. Their goal is to reduce that to 35 within the next five years; most of those 35 will probably remain for quite a long time.
Unfortunately, they're realizing that they did a lousy job with some of the circle eliminations; there are more accidents and longer backups now at the intersection of routes 35 and 36 in Eatontown than there were before the circle was removed. The latest proposal involves an overpass and full cloverleaf.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry, my home-base computer is not online right now so I was not able to post over the weekend.
The $98,000 is apparently needed to match what the DOT would be contributing to the Phase III project -- AFAIK.
BMTman
I'm surprised BHRA hasn't alerted SubTalk to this problem.
I think it would be wise to wait until we hear from either Bob Diamond or Jan Lorenzen on the issue. If nothing shows up from either of the two principals in the BHRA, we can safely assume that the stuff in the press is just regular trash.
I've noticed that several cars in trains of R-32 have been married to cars of different car numbers.
Here are a few seen: 3521-3862, 3777-3444, 3776-3617, 3558-3421, 3645-3521, 3531-3830, 3470-3919, 3600-3503, 3502-3095, 3740-3540, 3521-3862 and R-42 cars 4460-4665 from the Williamsburg Bridge rear ender.
I know there must be other units like this. There is also a train of R-44 like this. Have there been many accidents that make this possible or is it laziness in the yards?
4460 is a modified R-40, not an R-42; this pair is indeed from the Williamsburg Bridge incident.
As to the R-32s, they came back from Morrison-Knudsen mismated. The reason I was given at the time was that some cars required more work than others, so their mates (which didn't need as much work) were mated to each other to get them back in service sooner. They've been that way ever since.
David
So you might say they divorced and re-married..
I've noticed that several cars in trains of R-32 have been married to cars of different car numbers. Here are a few seen: 3521-3862, 3777-3444, 3776-3617, 3558-3421, 3645-3521, 3531-3830, 3470-3919, 3600-3503, 3502-3095, 3740-3540, 3521-3862 and R-42 cars 4460-4665 from the Williamsburg Bridge rear ender.
I know there must be other units like this. There is also a train of R-44 like this. Have there been many accidents that make this possible or is it laziness in the yards?
First, there are several errors in your list. Most noticably, 3095 is not a current revenue car. You also left off 3904 from your list. As to this being an act of laziness, I assure you, unmating and re-mating of cars is not something lazy people do. The mis-mating of cars may be due to accidents but just as often, it's necessary to keep a maximum number of revenue cars in service when a car is heavily damaged due to mechanical/electrical failure or even vandalism (and the mate is not damaged.
>>and R-42 cars 4460-4665 from the Williamsburg Bridge rear ender.<<
Is this the set that had an R-40MOD front replacing the R-40SLANT front ?
I heard the nickname "Frankenslant" mentioned a while back.
Bill "Newkirk"
That was me, that was #4461 itself, the R40M actually involved in the Williamsburg Bridge accident of June 5, 1995. She is now He, and wears the shovel nose of #4260, whose August 15, 1994 crash in tunnel west of 9th Avenue put him out of action. #4260 is supposed to be the new number, and the mate will be #4259, once she gets her left eye fixed and sheet metal patched up.
I haven't heard as to how this project is doing in some time.
wayne
THey are unofficially know as BASTARDS.
I WILL DO IT AGAIN, here is THE ODD COUPLES LIST.
R32 MISMATCHED PAIRS ("Odd Couples")
In order, lowest even number to highest
--------------------------------------------------------
3348 - 3549 (note A)
3382 - 3831
3418 - 3863
3420 - 3645
3444 - 3777
3468 - 3445
3470 - 3919
3502 - 3905
3520 - 3891
3530 - 3741
3548 - 3593
3558 - 3421
3592 - 3469
3600 - 3503
3628 - 3669 (note B)
3644 - 3621
3650 - 3767
3658 - 3471
3740 - 3419
3776 - 3617
3830 - 3531
3862 - 3521
3890 - 3383
3904 - 3559
3918 - 3601
Note A - 3348 originally numbered 3659, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit
Note B - 3669 originally numbered 3668, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit; original 3669 wrecked 12-01-74; 3629 wrecked 5-71.
Thanks. I needed the list because on of my conductor friends asked me for it. I looked in the FAQ and as I matched them up, noticed that about 4 mis-mates were not listed.
The R44 ODD BUNCHES are as follows:
5316-5317-5405-5318
5246-5247-5337-5336
5478-5479-5403-5404
5302-5303-5263-5262
5260-5261-5277-5276
Out of service:
5402, 5283-5285-5284
Wrecked:
5282
Scraped:
5319
wayne
3740-3540 and 3645-3521 are not physically possible, re-check your numbers.
I have the correct ones, posted earlier.
wayne
What ever happened to that exit in the celler of A&S (now Macy's) that exited into Hoyt street. I remember how when a youngster watching old R-type cars passing. When did the store do away with that exit?
That exit has been closed for years, at least since the mid-1980s.
David
I remember that exit. I may be misremembering, but I think it also offered a pass-under.
I also remember Hoyt St before and after the rehab. Before, it was just possible that it was the *ugliest* station in the system, a complete wreck. In comparison to before, after was a miracle.
The Abraham and Straus building is as grand as they come. Last time I was there, it had fallen on hard times; they'd shut down a whole floor. Didn't know it had become a Macy's.
I have fond memories of the old A&S store on Fulton St. in Brooklyn. My mother used to take us shopping there when we were kids.
I got over my fear of escalators (well deserved, after getting my hand caught in one when I was 5) in that store.
-- Ed Sachs
I had fond memories of it too--it was almost as grand as Macy's Herald Sq., and am now disgusted that Macy's has left it in its bankrupt state. It's not 1 floor that is closed, it's 3-- 6th-8th. This started in the 70's when there was some flood damage on 8 and A&S didn't uave the money to repair it. Then 6 and 7 eventually closed to merhandise (they have refunds or something there; otherwise, it is office and storage. Storage used to be in the building across the street; furniture was on the ground floor under the parking lot building across Hoyt, and there qwas also retail space on the 4th floor, connected by a bridge over Hoty. That is now stock space. Where McDonald's is used to be a nut store or something that was connected indoors to the men's dept.
Everything remains scaled down, and around Christmas time it is so cluttered, esp. on the ground floor, and with all that former retail space upstairs. Why is "The Cellar" still on the 5th (now the top) floor where A & S had it? There used to be a huge tree with giant ornaments hung from the ceiling of the elevator bank on the ground floor Christmas time, but when I stop by in the fall, counters have been set up on one whole side, and only about 2 cars run. It is horrible, especially compared to Macy's in Manhattan. The people are treated like cattle, and I asked a manager why they wouldn't restore it and make it as good as Herald Sq., and he says "that store is a 'different animal'", and that they didn't want to spend the money. I guess when downtown Brooklyn really comes back, and is no longer predominated by one class of people, then they will rebuild it back. (I guess we're lucky they didn't close it like the others).
Niw that is it's Macy's, do they still use those cool elevators in the old A&S building.
Yes, there was an underpass to go to the Manhattan-bound platform of the station. I too loved as a kid to go to the old A&S. My aunt used to take me there a lot.
That exit has been closed for years, at least since the mid-1980s.
But when K-Mart opened its store between Broadway and Lafayette at 8th Street a few years ago, it actually reopened the entrance to the downtown platform of Astor Place on the east side IRT.
Win one, lose one.
I see where financially troubled K-Mart is looking at shutting several hundered stores in the near future. I don't know if Astor Place is on the "low performing" list, but if you want to use that subway entrance, I say now is probably a better time than later...
From my last job as a vendor, KMart Astor, 34th and Coop City rated in the highest levels of value. Astor may look pretty seemy at times but it has a captive NYU customer base. CI Peter
What should I do if I, hypothetically of course, found that technical information I gave someone was used in the lead article, written by that person, in a transit fan's club newsletter and I'm not mentioned in the acknowledgments as a source?
Thanks in advance,
Robert King
Chalk it up to experience, unless they copied it word-for-word from the document you gave them. Even if they did, you probably can't do anything, since they didn't profit financially from it, but you might be able to make a fair fuss with the newsletter editor.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
( Hypothetically, of course )
What was the understanding under which you gave the material? Did you assume it would be used and you would be credited?
If that were the circumstance with me, I suppose I would first tell the person politely that he was welcome to use the material, but I expected to be credited. This should lead to a warm apology, maybe an explanation that you were inadvertently omitted, and the commitment to make it up to you in no uncertain terms in the next issue of the newsletter.
If you didn't expect the material to be used, or if the person refuses to credit you, it gets more complicated.
I didn't expect my information to be used at all, I was surprised to see it in the article in the first place. I gave the information to the article's author during two rather detailed conversations we had so not all of it appeared in the article. What was there was very slightly rephrased to fit into the article and to be more palatable to a less technically oriented audience.
- My understanding at the time I gave out the information was that it was just a casual conversation between the two of us. It certainly wasn't an interview of any kind and no mention was ever made that the possibility of my information being used in an article even existed. I thought it was just an acquaintance being personally curious about subway car technology and asking questions. Since we discussed several related other topics in fairly good detail (again, I'm providing information and answering questions) at the same time, I didn't realise that I may have been acting as a source for the newsletter. So, it came as a total surprise to see it in the article, and it was when I read the article for the first time that I discovered that my information had been put to use - I certainly did not expect it at all.
- It already is much, much more complicated anyways. Another source for other (historical) information used in the article was properly cited so based on other events in December (it was discovered that I'm friends with a person who is on the official unofficial club shitlist) I wouldn't be too surprised to discover that this is some kind of 'revenge'. What happened in December was like merging George Orwell and Frank Kafkha and it involved the whole executive committee of this club. Unfortunately, the newsletter editor sits on this governing committee. Getting this sorted out through the newsletter editor or even the whole governing body of the club seems to be a nonstarting proposition and I suspect I'm about to be totally screwed over again.
Thanks for your help,
Robert King
Understood. Do you feel this use of your material compromises you in some way, other than the rudeness of it? Had you planned to use it yourself? Is this newsletter widely disseminated?
What would be a satisfactory conclusion for you?
(If you reply tonite, I will read it tomorrow)
The newsletter is given to around 200 people (give or take quite a bit - that figure is approximate at best). I'm hoping I can get a little printed notice in the February edition (January should already be done and printed up if it's going to be on time for Monday's meeting) mentioning me as a source that went unmentioned in the credits at the bottom of the original article. This would also give the author an opportunity to fix an incorrect date in a picture caption in the same article.
I'm planning to raise the issue on Monday for sure and we'll see what happens...
-Robert King
>>> I gave the information to the article's author during two rather detailed conversations we had so not all of it appeared in the article. What was there was very slightly rephrased to fit into the article and to be more palatable to a less technically oriented audience. <<<
Maybe I'm missing something, but what you describe seems like basic research for an article, and certainly not plagiarism. The writer has obtained technical information from a knowledgeable source (you), and interpreted the information for his intended audience. The more technical the information, the closer to exactly what you said would be in the article. The failure to give you credit in the acknowledgments is impolite and unprofessional, but certainly not actionable.
It would be different if you provided proprietary information in confidence, such as the galley proofs of a soon to be published book, or your formula for turning lead into gold.
Tom
or your formula for turning lead into gold
Tom, what is your formula for turning lead into gold? I promise I won't tell anyone else. Please?
>>> what is your formula for turning lead into gold? <<<
Sorry, I can't let you know that until I get the patents locked in. But I think Enron will be willing to sell you futures on the output of the process. :-)
Tom
How come there were never plans to connect the Eastern Division with the Fulton Street Line. I can see that a connection can be made by the way of the old Fulton Street Interchange near Atlantic Ave. As the Canarsie Line rises up to Broadway Junction there is the Fulton Street El that goes under it. From the point the el descends. They could make a connection to the tunnel to connect to the Fulton St Subway.
That would be nice. Unfortunately, they're in the process of demolishing the huge complex at Atlantic Av.
-Stef
I rode on the "L" line the other week. It doesn't look like they're demolishing anything. They did start did they?
Why of course. When all is said and done, a two track structure will remain....
Regards,
Stef
Apparently you're not familiar with Broadway Junction. Extensive demolition was already done of the concrete part of the structure and much roadbed has been removed.
BMTman
As the Canarsie Line rises up to Broadway Junction there is the Fulton Street El that goes under it. From the point the el descends.
Ahhhh, Gary....I hate to tell you this, but that ain't the Fulton St. El! That's the IRT line to New Lots! The Fulton Elevated tracks in that area came down around 1956.
If you have my book, see the schematic of what the area once looked like on P. 65.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Peter: I'm afraid to say it but you're mistaken. The abandoned steelwork between Broadway Juction and Atlantic Avenue is indeed the remains of the Fulton Street El. The IRT Livonia Avenue Line is further south crossing the Canrsie Line at Livonia Avenue Station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The abandoned steelwork between Broadway Juction and Atlantic Avenue is indeed the remains of the Fulton Street El
Well, that plus the section along Liberty Avenue in Queens that the (A) uses.
:-) Andrew
Peter: I'm afraid to say it but you're mistaken. The abandoned steelwork between Broadway Juction and Atlantic Avenue is indeed the remains of the Fulton Street El. The IRT Livonia Avenue Line is further south crossing the Canrsie Line at Livonia Avenue Station.
I was looking at it coming from the south, as I suspected that was the intent of the original poster, but I guess you could interpret it that way as well. Unfortunatley, though, there's nothing left of the K tracks at Atlantic...everything's been ripped out. Yes, the end of the A (also K tracks) is the last vestige of the Fulton El.
I think all that's left is the Y2 yard lead, a little bit of K1 that will become P2 shortly and the recently re-activated trackway over Sneideker Ave. that is temporarily in use for the Manhattan-bound service.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Larry, you are quite right.
To Peter: I thought since you're 'The Trackman' you'd be more in the know here...
Anyhow, the old Fulton tracks end in a stub with a corrugated-type building structure sitting on the end at Van Sinderin and Fulton (you can see it from the street or from the Canarsie soundbound platform at B'way Junction).
BMTman
I had a totally differnent but interesting idea the other day whilst looking at the track maps.
As with the Queens Blvd line, the IND originally desinged the Fulton subway so that only the express would continue to Manhattan. The local would terminate at Court, now the NYC Transit Museum. This is why the local and express merge into the same tracks between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Chambers/WTC. Now the (A) and (C) combined aren't a great number of trains per hour, and I know not whether this poses a problem, but if it does, I can think of a potential solution based on that used on Queens Blvd:
Just as the Queens Blvd local tracks were connected to the BMT nearby (providing the routing now used for the (R), perhaps there could be a connection between the Fulton local tracks cutting off between Hoyt and the Transit Museum, and connecting with the BMT heading into the Montague Tunnel. Then the (M) could take the place of the (C) as the Fulton St. local. The (C) could terminate with the (E) in lower Manhattan.
The advantages: The Fulton express could operate more trains per hour (should this ever be needed) without any regard to what the local is doing, and vice-versa. Furthermore the would be greater choice from Fulton as to where to go in Manhattan. It would be especially useful if the Nassau St. line were incorporated into the Second Ave line.
Now, I'm not sure whether this is feasible. The two lines look close on the track map, but then I do not think that is perfectly to scale geographically. Also I don't know if there's enough track between Hoyt and Court to put a junction in.
Even if it were technically feasible, I would place this low on the priority list compared with such projects as Seccond Ave or Eastern Queens extensions. It's just a thought.
:-) Andrew
I've had similar thoughts, and also discard them as too expensive, and competing with too many other, worthier projects.
One serious thought, tho', is working out a plan for one-way rush hour flows. This would involve some new construction, some new connections, but certainly not a new East River tunnel. I suspect we could get an increase in rush hour service between B'lyn and Manhattan of up to 30 tph -- without building a new East River connection, and without having a pileup of trains with no where to go at the end of the line.
a line through Court st to the BMT Broadway line, and a flying juntion at te world trade center[cortlandt st] to the IND 8th ave local.
I've posted on this exact plan before. It's actually my favorite idea, and if not 'cheap', it's certainly cheaper than a new East River tunnel.
The Montague line from east of DeKalb (after Atlantic & Pacific) to Whitehall would run one-way during rush, to Manhattan in the AM, from in the PM. Service to Broad St would be unaffected. Service to Whitehall would be doubled.
This would not work unless a connection is made to the 8Av local tracks, probably under the current BMT Cortlandt station, with a merge at Rector (it ideally would be three tracks all they way to Whitehall). Half of the 8Av service would turn back, either at a 3 track station under the BMT Cortlandt station, or at Whitehall; half o the Broadway service would turn back at the lower level of City Hall station. The extra service would pile into the Jamaica yards or tracks in the outer reaches of the Queens IND.
I've not fully worked out what would have to be done in Brooklyn, tho' it's clearly doable. What I write here might have some problems with it -- and I'd appreciate input.
4th Av Montague trains would switch to the opposite track past Pacific but before DeKalb during AM rush. All Brighton trains would go via Montague. AM from-Manhattan 6Av trains would provide CI service, while PM to Manhattan would also go via 6Av.
At Pacific St., during AM rush, some returning-from-Mahattan bridge trains would switch to the local track, while during the PM rush, northbound local trains would switch to the express track and thence go via the bridge.
This requires lots of extra trains, and a place to store them at the end of the line (which, as I've said, would be the Jamaica or CI yards). I see no conflicts in Manhattan. This alone increases peak-flow Brooklyn service by about 15 tph. I wonder if something even fancier can be done with the bridge tracks, allowing another 15 tph.
Im gonna do the math right now as far as train per hour goes,...wish me luck...
This would not work unless a connection is made to the 8Av local tracks, probably under the current BMT Cortlandt station, with a merge at Rector (it ideally would be three tracks all they way to Whitehall).
I'll leave the TPH calcs and equipment allocation to you guys. I'm just an infrastructure guy.
But for the mechanics of a combined IND/BMT station all wrapped into the WTC rebuild), see my post on WTC transit: likely & possible (long-ish) from a couple weeks ago, and subsequent thread.
If Second Ave gets plugged into Nassau down the road, though, that might eliminate the spare capacity I think you're counting on. Thoughts?
The 8Av/BMT Cortlandt connection would be unnecessary if the 2Av were sent to Broad St. You'd send all the service to B'lyn, and leave the R as it is.
The 8Av suggestion, however, is doable considerably sooner and considerably cheaper than the 2nd Av. I don't see the 2Av getting to Broad St for a good 20 years, if ever. And with the 8Av connection made, the Water St alignment becomes far more logical.
I hardly think the Fulton St. line needs another connection to Manhattan. If the C cannot handle it's current ridership, increased headways or 600' trains make much more sense.
If the C cannot handle it's current ridership, increased headways ... make much more sense.
Hey! You could be a politician! Yeah, let's cram them all into less space!
The C is hardly crammed, and it runs short trains. I believe in allocating precious transit resources to projects that have a real necessity.
a line through Court st to the BMT Broadway line, and a flying juntion at te world trade center[cortlandt st] to the IND 8th ave local. that would free up the space needed for the A. Or connect the local out side Hoyt st to the F [ALSO ON TH OPUTSIDE TRACKS VIA FLYING JUCTION]and run them up to West 4th street...
1. The C line is more preferable to Fulton St. local riders than the M is, as the C makes all the stops the A does.
2. Current C service is adequate. No need to increase capacity here.
3. The C & E could not both terminate in Manhattan without a huge logjam.
I've wondered about this myself. Can the Jamaica Ave el be upgraded to 600 foot platforms? You'd have a replacement for the Crescent St el ramping up someplace like Elderts to Jamaica Av.
But to have any kind of reasonable thru service, you'd also have to create a second connection, to either the Eastern District line, or to the Broadway el; would 480 foot trains to Rockway or Lefferts be manageable?
But, for all the money this would cost, there are other projects which are more deserving.
Well, given the proper amount of money and available railcars, they could build a ramp to connect the Broadway el east of B'way Junction with the IND tracks between East New York and Liberty Ave. Then they could run the V via the Broadway el, Chrystie St. connection and the Willie B to Lefferts, and let all of the A trains them go to the Rockaways. Or if there was a problem extending the el platforms to 600 feet for the V, then the V and C could swap tracks south of West Fourth, and the C, using only 4800-foot trains, could run via the Broadway el to Lefferts while the V runs Fulton local to Euclid.
If the Broadway el express track was used for a peak direction express the way the express track on the Flushing line is, and if the V or C also ran express between East New York and Euclid, enough time could be cut off of the run from Lefferts to midtown Manhattan -- by avoiding the long trip southwest to downtown Brooklyn and lower Manhattan -- to make the route viable. Lefferts passengers would only have five stops between Euclid and West Fourth Street -- Broadway Junction, Myrtle, Marcy, Essex and B'way-Lafayette, compaired with the nine stops the A train currently makes between Euclid and West Fourth.
The MTA definitely has more pressing needs than to build an East New York connection, but I think unlike the KK service, this route actually would have a chance to attract passengers, especially during rush hour.
There are much simpler ways of getting the (V) to Liberty/Lefferts. It could switch from 6th/Culver to 8th/Fulton at either West 4th or Jay.
:-) Andrew
But doing it that way would create a situation where three lines would be sharing one track -- the A, C and V either from West Fourth to Hoyt or between Jay and Hoyt, which would force a cutback in the number of TPH on one or all three of the lines.
Doing it the other way would avoid having more than two different routes on one track at the same time. (You would probably have to zap the Z to oblivion to make room for the V or C to share trackage with the M and J trains between Marcy and Essex, but the combined number of J and M trains and V or C per hour would be a lot less than the combined number of A, C and V trains).
Can the Jamaica Ave el be upgraded to 600 foot platforms?
Easily. In fact, Elderts Lane is already 600' long.
The platforms at Elderts Lane are 546 feet long. Woodhaven Boulevard's platforms, however, are 596 feet long.
David
How long is Van Siclen? I know there is alot of slack past the 8 car marker there. (Thank goodness. It is on a downgrade and easy to miss the mark, but you'll still be on the platform.)
The information I have says Van Siclen Avenue is 554 feet long.
David
I refuse to believe Eldert's lane is shorter than Woodhaven Blvd. Better check those numbers again.
Those are the numbers I've got. They're from an internal 1982 NYCTA publication that I was given years ago. It is possible that work was done on the platforms at Elderts Lane (now called 75th Street, right?) to increase their length (though probably not their USABLE length -- after all, why bother?) -- maybe a Central Instrument Room (for signals) or something was built there (haven't been through there lately) in the intervening years.
David
After further thought, it's possible Woodhaven Blvd is longer because it has a curved platform, which, if straightened out, could be much longer than it looks. I always assumed Eldert's Lane was longer because it's the only station which is extended beyond the edge of it's northern mezzanine.
A pipe dream - looks good on paper, but:
-What purpose would this connection serve? The Fulton, Broadway, and Canarsie Lines have a universal transfer at Broadway Junction, and none of these lines is overcrowded in the way the Lex or Queens Blvd. lines are.
-The physical connection itself looks simple on a map but in reality would be very expensive and difficult. A steep grade would be required to carry tracks from the elevated into the Fulton Street subway. Major interlockings would be needed on the el and in the subway tunnel. The subway tunnel twists south and east after leaving Broadway- East NY station heading towards Lefferts - so the actual connection would be extremely difficult to construct.
but it also passes right under the J line between the EASTERN PKY STATION and the Buss depot on Jamaica ave,then turns south on penn... past alabama ave, so it crosses this route 3 times. at any one of these locations, a connection could be built....
My question remains - what purpose would this connection serve?
And my point remains - building any connection between two rail lines that are at different grade levels requires expensive civil construction and expensive signal and track work at each new junction. And of course, the grades may be too steep for efficient train operation.
I guess they should just leave it as a trip down the stairs, or very long escalators there.
A direct connection between South Jamaica and Downtown Brooklyn,Manhattan for one,without changing trains or taking the higher fare LIRR. Thats what the bellmouths were put there for in the first place,to run trains under Jamaica ave to Cypress hills,and ramp up to the old Jamaica el......and they could still be placed even at EAST NEW YORK ,WITHOUT THE GRADES BEING AS STEP AS YOU [MY FRIEND ]SUGESTED.. :^)
The physical connection itself looks simple on a map but in reality would be very expensive and difficult. A steep grade would be required to carry tracks from the elevated into the Fulton Street subway. Major interlockings would be needed on the el and in the subway tunnel. The subway tunnel twists south and east after leaving Broadway- East NY station heading towards Lefferts - so the actual connection would be extremely difficult to construct.
It might even be easier at least practically (NOT politically) to restore the Fulton El from Atlantic to Grant and stop the destruction of Atlantic in the process.
Pipe dream still, however.
How come there were never plans to connect the Eastern Division with the Fulton Street Line.
There was a plan to connect the eastern division to the Fulton St line, and it was completed and opened in 1956. Remember, the Liberty Ave elevated portion of the A line was once part of the eastern division.
There were bellmouths built on the line east of ENY planned to connect to the Jamaica line. Guess it never materialized.
As long as we are wishing,
1) Extend the platforms from Cypress Hills to Jamaica Center from what ever they are now to 660 ft. Add Express track between the same stations.
2) Build an Express track from Cypress Hills to Eastern Parkway along Jamaica Ave. using the Airtrain concret type construction.
3) connect the Fulton Local tracks via the Bellmouths, under the ENY Yard and up to interlock with the New Express track on Jamaica Ave.
You get express Track from Jamacica to Manhattan. With Essex/6th ave connection options also available.
With Fulton Ave connection Felexibility for emergency GO is available.
avid
Subtalk Field Trip to Washington, DC. via Cleveland.
Alex Lu . lexcie@mit.edu . 73 Morrison Ave., Somerville MA 02144-2319
On January 10, 2002, two members of the Subtalk community (Lexcie and Jersey Mike) embarked on a 38-hour, 800-mile cruise from Philadelphia, PA to Washington, DC via Cleveland, OH. Taking advantage of Amtrak's two-for-one winter sale and a RailSale fare for $11.70 one-way between Philadelphia and Cleveland, they paid a grand total of $43.20 each for the cruise. The routing was:
#43 "The Pennsylvanian" - PHL to CLE, 6.35am on Thursday
#30 "The Capitol Limited" - CLE to WAS, 2.05am on Friday
#148 - WAS to PHL, 3.10pm on Friday. An extra $42!
Due to the sparsity of SEPTA Subway division services at 6am, instead of using the usual PATCO/SEPTA combination to get to 30th Street Station, we decided to take the NJ Transit Atlantic City Commuter Rail line, which gave us a one-seat ride to 30th Street. In any case, I was unamused with SEPTA Regional Rail division whose conductor charged me a fare between 30th Street and Market East on an earlier occasion - transfers are supposed to be free with an Amtrak ticket! The Atlantic City Commuter Rail line saw the operation of a three-coach "ghetto" commuter equipment (Comet IB coaches converted from St Louis Car Company's self-propelled vehicles) with a single GP-40 type unit (there was a railfan view off the back). We got to 30th Street in time for Train #100, the 06.15 Metroliner, as well as our own Amtrak Freight Train #43 - quite a convenient connexion for commuters traveling from NJTransit area to other parts of the Northeast Corridor.
Amtrak Freight Train #43 did not arrive until around 7am; in typical fashion, the departure status board flipped through "on-time, 15 min delay, 30 min delay" before we were able to board. At the station, we met one guy who worked for a ultrasonic rail testing contractor. Knowing my Boston connexion, he started to tell me how much of a joke he thought Guildford Rail System was - many track defects, apparently, although not as bad as some of the secondaries I've heard about in Maryland. Once the consist arrived, we were swiftly boarded. Two Genesis locomotives, in fresh Amtrak Acela paint, hauled one head-end boxcar, no baggage car, one horizon coach in phase III, one NEC-sector Amfleet I Cafe in Acela Regional colours (with the business class section closed off), one ExpressTrek refridgated boxcar, a few more ordinary boxcars, and four intermodal trailers-on-railroad-truck trailers. The station dwell time was less than 5 minutes (That must be a record in 30th Street) and we were off shortly after 7am with a swift acceleration. Mike questioned a P42's ability to achieve such acceleration, but, of course, 8,400 horses weren't hauling anything particularly heavy!
The trip was relatively uneventful until Harrisburg - the service appear to have been used as a high-speed Keystone service by commuters, resulting in a relatively high loading factor. At Harrisburg, the train emptied out. The 20-minute layover at Harrisburg resulted in about 12 intermodal trailers being added to the end of Amtrak Freight Train #43 - count 'em, that's 16 intermodal trailers being carried in addition to many boxcars. Only one of the trailers were branded "Amtrak" with a phase IV paint scheme; the rest were plain white: some were AMTZ, the majority were Triple Crown. Freight action being fairly quiet, we were given the highball on time by the Norfolk Southern dispatchers; but this also meant we did not get any pictures of coal trains on the adjacent Harrisburg Line.
I slept most of the way from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, having been on the Pennsylvania Main Line more times than I care to remember. Mike made various observations with regard to the number of signals replaced, etc., but I was too tired to take notice. I ate lots of sandwiches, which was good. I did wake up for the Horseshoe curve - because of the length of our train, and the fact that we were not eclipsed by any freight trains (since the Conrail sellup, the PRR main had been less busy), I got a pretty good view. One trip down memory lane was the passing visit to Greensburg, PA, where I was stuck for 16 hours one time due to an NS TOFC derailment, but that's another story. During the run out to Pittsburgh, we passed at least three freights - including some intermodals. It was nice to know that NS is finally taking passenger train on-time performance seriously, but of course, they had their own reasons to do so. Remember those Triple Crown trailers we saw at Harrisburg?
After Pittsburgh, we were diverted onto the NS Fort Wayne line over the Beaver Falls flyover. It was kinda cool to see the other line disappear into the ground and cross under you - kinda like flying, right? That's what flying junctions are for, says PRR! Beaver Falls, of course, is the last flying junction that PRR built. We stopped briefly at Alliance, OH, then we ran into some delays. Single track was in operation with a 25mph speed restriction because of some track work. This time, we did not get so lucky, and had to wait for two intermodals to pass in the opposite direction. Although Mike complained shortly after we left Philadelphia that he didn't "pay $11.70 to ride in a commuter car" (funny line of the trip), two feature of the horizon coach came in very handy: (1) there was no light glare on the inside of the windows, unlike in an Amfleet, and (2) the fact that the passenger doors opened. Yup - unlike those NEC Amfleets, the doors can be manually operated. We were able to wave to the freight engineers as they went past - and of course, take pictures of them, whilst strictly maintaining the three-point rule. Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention, we threw a half-mushed peach onto the NS main track as the horizon had no end door. Aside from saving landfill space Mike landed it directly onto of the rail between the express and Horizon car.
As we progressed past the track work, we waved to the track workers. Mike mumbled something about how all the railroaders think of Amtraks as party trains - well, it's not too far from the truth, except in the Northeast Corridor. I guess that's the reason why I was never too interested in riding trains on the NEC - at least, less so than elsewhere in the country. Shortly thereafter, we arrived in Cleveland, and successfully detrained without the conductor yelling at us. One coach attendent did discover (after Alliance) that we were standing in the vestibule and proceeded to lock the vestibule door (which of course prevented us from opening the external doors), but by that time it was pretty dark anyway so it didn't really matter.
At Cleveland, we went out and took some night photos of buildings. I was trying my first reel of 800 speed film and at the same time was commenting to Mike about how clean the city was. Back in 1998, in Cleveland OH, was where I decided that I was going to move here. We went to Tower City downtown (the old Cleveland Union Terminal), and discovered that nothing was open, so we went for a joyride on the Red Line to the airport. The actual cars were very, very flimsy - they look like subway cars but had windows which bowed in and out as the car rattled and moved. These windows were obvious not FRA Part 223 compliant, were they? The Red Line was much more like an interurban than a real subway. We got to the airport, when the T/O promptly disappeared whilst we stayed on the train. She came back later, drove the train back, and just before Tower City when Mike went to stand at the front of the car, she complained to us about not having "paid a fare" at the airport. Wait. We stayed within fare control. Actually, within the vehicle. So Tower City to Tower City via Airport was not a valid routing on the Cleveland Red Line? No wonder nobody rides it. The T/Os have such an attitude problem. I was reading this "Rider's Digest" publication on the train which talked about service being cut back. Later on, when we were sitting in the Waterfront watching trains, some 7 RTA trains pulled past with no-one on board. Yup - zero riders; and the town itself was also surprisingly empty. I guess Cleveland isn't really a transit city.
The Amtrak Station at Cleveland was closed between 6pm and midnight, thus we were relegated to standing on the platform watching trains. I don't know if my pictures of intermodal trains running on the NS Chicago Line at 1/2 second exposures came out, but if not we did at least observe the traffic pattern in that area. Since the Conrail split up, the former NYC main was divided between two different owners. This mean that the Selkirk-Chicago through intermodal routing now goes by CSX Water Level Route up to a point east of Cleveland Waterfront Station (QUAKER) and is routed via the CSX Short Line onto the CSX Indianapolis Line (at BEREA), thus following the ex-B&O Main to Chicago (change at WILLARD). The ex-Conrail traffic from the Philadelphia area is routed via the ex-PRR Main onto the NS Chicago Line (ex-NYC main) at a point west of Cleveland Waterfront Station (DB or DRAWBRIDGE [(m)(x)(d)]). The result is the virtual abandonment of a section of Conrail's main line from QUAKER to DRAWBRIDGE. To facilitate the new routings, CSX has double-tracked both the Short Line and the Indianapolis Line. Still, there appears to be more congestion down the Western Ohio end of the ex-B&O Main, which may partially be explained by the funneling of the traffic from two areas onto the old B&O. For its role in this play, NS installed cab signals on the Cleveland line and now runs the line w/o fixed wayside signals.
After the Amtrak guys came to open the door at 11.30pm, we went inside to avoid the freezing winds, when Mike promptly went to sleep on the floor in the station! He was a lot more tired than I was, having gotten no sleep the previous night and on the Pennsylvanian. The Capitol Limited eventually arrived at 2.05am (yay! On-time performance into Cleveland). After boarding, Mike went to sleep, and then was mad at me after I didn't wake him up at Pittsburgh in order to observe the B&O Main. I woke up briefly at Pittsburgh and woke him up, he went back to sleep, so did I, and we didn't get up until Connellsville, PA. Oops! Nonetheless, we headed to the diner to wake-up with an Amtrak breakfast and very very strong B&O "morning brew" koffee. Well, Mike didn't have that; he was too smart, he went for the Cranberry Juice instead. Again I thought the Amtrak Breakfast was well impressive and well worth the $9.50 I paid for it.
On the B&O, we were able to take lots of pictures of position light signals, in addition to taking some "out the window" shots as we overtook some freight trains. Mike thought this was hilarious, but I guess this is standard procedures for those of us who take railfan pictures semi-seriously. Heh.
On the B&O, the scenery was quite positively stunning. I had already visited the ex-B&O at one location - Ohio Pyle, PA, where I went with a friend one time to go walk around a trail, or something. We saw one coal train that time. I vaguely got a glance of that town when we were sitting in the diner but as we passed over Sand Patch, I was able to get lots of photographs of really quite impressive scenery of the Potomac River. It had been snowing there for the past few days and some parts of the river were covered in white snow (on top of ice) whilst other parts were still flowing. The lack of leaves on the trees really helped my photographic endeavours too. It was a nice location - must go out there again sometime.
We got to Washington about 1/2 hour down due to congestion on the mainline within the Washington Metro Area (we were still on-time at Rockville, MD). Various pictures of equipment was taken in the yard at Washington Union Station - including various Sounder Commuter Rail equipment which are on lease to Virginia Railway Express ("SOUNDERX cars" as Mike called them). Mike had the misfortune of having his Camera battery die just as we entered the yard. We ate Chinese Fude, ran out of time, and then headed back to Philadelphia.. The most important thing that we learned at Washington was once you arrive DO NOT LEAVE FARE CONTROL. Yes, DC Union has fare control in that they only let ticketed passengers past the "gates" and onto the platform area and you need to have a ticket to a boarding train, not just any one train. However, once you are let on the platform area you can pretty much wander around as you please. If you do leave fare control your best bet is to re-enter through Gate A and head left onto the MARC platforms and then cross between platforms down by K tower. Amtrak personel are usually guarding the terminal end. There was a long line for out 3:05 Unreserved train and it stretched out of the gate area and down the mall to the B Dalton bookstore. Starting at the end of this line we just walked to the lead car of the train and found it virtually empty. We got two of the facing 4-seaters to ourselves while later parts of the train were SRO.
The ride up was pretty mundane except for seeing a burned out Amfleet in the DC coach yard. Anyone know the story behind this? There were also some old vintage MetroLiners in PC colours in the Wilmington Shop yard.
Posted about it yesterday, they had a blurb about it in the Post.
I only just saw WATAMAGOAGH's message:
A small fire in the Ivy City Yard damaged one car according to the Washington Post on page B3 of today's paper. Not too many details, the article was about 4 lines. Cause under investigation.
So it must be the Ivy City Yard we saw? The car was an Amfleet Cafe Car. Looks like the fire took out the windows on the far side (couldn't tell if it was business class end or the normal end). The pictures aren't out yet but will have more details once the pictures are out. The fire originated from inside the car.
Lexcie
They are hiring engieers and conducters and towers.
Any idea how they pay?
No the jobs are not listed on their site.
PA, PATH, MetroNorth and LIRR are all part of our system. We are state employees of record BUT MTA runs under city rules (DCAS.) So, only MTA posts the positions with fixed salaries...the others ask use for our requirements. My brother, get your experience and put in your time...MTA is the 'Harvard' of mass transit. CI Peter
LIRR is Harvard and MTA is Pace
OK...I'll buy that. Mebbe Pace is more new tech than Harvard...at least we have the worlds respect. SwedSub posted that his system is based upon ours...problem is that they used new signals and Bomba tech to MAKE TRAINS STOP. So my brother, if we get nuked by TWU cuz we are newbies/probies...we go to PA/PATH/MetroNorth/LIRR. You can operate a train and I can make it go...our experience is of value. Just think that we were paid to learn an entirely new skill outside of our private industry work experience. We are RTO/CED, we are the NEW DIRECTION...we make trains run and go. TA needs us, TA work is EXCELLENT work. Abandon us and who will wind up the rubber band to make the trainset go down the tracks??? CI Peter
Er PACE is not accredited.
At the reporting center they put a stack of PATH job opportunity ads in front of us.
Do they PAY? Or is it anohter SIRT?
That's the problem.......what do these jobs pay??? DCAS is obligated by city law to post salaries and hours. At least if we lost our employment we have training, experience and have carried responsibility. I'll try to get to someone from my old work about MetroNorth....he's a linesman making 17 bucks an hour. Very likely we make top bucks in our positions. The TA gets a bargain with us...we are willing and eager for the work, any work. Slackers with seniority bask in the light of a third rail arc...dead wood with limited communications skills cost the system time and money.
See the C/R on the LIRR make as much as a T/O in MTA and the engineers makes 20%+ more. They are actually asking for two years experience preferred but I think they will take one.
If you know things are better and the salary is too....go for it. I'm 47 years old...I left my employment of 21 years with nothing.
I never knew about this work...I didn't know I could do this work.
You might find that the eight hour day is harder. Experience and confidence make for an easy day. Four months ago...what did i know?? The day I could look my car desk sup in the face and say 'I can do this work' was my graduation. CI Peter
>>>>>>>At the reporting center they put a stack of PATH job opportunity ads in front of us.
Grab one and let me know what's up ok? PATH pays an absolute mint. C/R's make $28 an hour there. Don't know how long it takes to reach top pay though. If MTA is "Harvard", then PATH is "Oxford".
Are you nuts? In two years you will be a TD or TSS.
Wage freezes, hiring freezes, I can see the point. One of the things about "state employment" is those raises look big for a few years. Then you hit what is called "top of pay grade" where all you can look forward to is "union incrementals" ... NYS and NYC ain't got the money anymore, and DC ain't about to cough up crap while they pay for new railroad service in Texas that can't even draw armadillers as passengers. Bottom line, if you've hit the top of your pay grade, it ain't going to be going up. New Jersey doesn't have to pay the expenses of rebuilding New York and likely will pay better.
New York didn't HAVE to be a sinking ship, but the good old republican congress gave us the high, hard wet one ...
I'm always willing to keep my options open. Sure I may not take it, but if I can drive a train for $31 an hour with a better pension, then maybe I'll pass up TD or TSS.
I bet they have no where near the amount of cab time than we do.
send scannable resume to 201-714-9731 for extra engineer switching
Wannabe, if you can, please send me what it says on the paper in regards to qualifications, requirements, etc. You can e-mail it to me if you wish.
I should say that 2/3 of our system are still equipped with the old relay based signaling system, and that part of the subway works just fine. And there is no plans to replace it for the time being anyway. Even that old system incorporates “In cab signaling” and performs very well for it’s age.
SweSub
We don't have in cab signalling...the plan for the R143 Kawasaki was to have CBTC and is on hold. The signal system is almost all relay here too...biggest problem is antique brittle wiring. CI Peter
The form of cab signalling used here in Stockholm (i.e., the older form used on the majority of the system now) is very simple in concept and execution.
AIUI, carborne equipment picks up (mumble...something...A/C frequency variations, perhaps?) from the rails at different frequencies. Two different frequencies indicate "High" speed (70 or 80 km/h, which is about 42 or 48 mph) and "Medium" speed (40 or 50 km/h, which is about 24 or 30 mph). The absence of any signal indicates "Low" speed (15 km/h, or 9 mph).
(1) Yard tracks are not coded, causing them to automatically enforce a 15 km/h limit.
(2) The presence of a train causes the code to disappear both (IIRC) for the occupied track circuit and the one behind it, enforcing a 15 km/h limit on those stretches of track. Note: there is nothing to prevent a following train from crashing into the one in front of it, but this can hardly happen at much higher speeds than 15 km/h. If the T/O exceeds that speed, the service brakes are applied automatically to lower the speed. If the speed is REALLY high, emergency braking will be applied.
(3) A red signal due to something other than track occupancy causes the code to disappear for the track circuit immediately before the red signal. The previous track circuit will be coded for "Medium" speed, to warn the T/O that he/she must reduce speed. A red signal due to track occupancy will cause the code to disappear for the track circuit immediately before the red signal and the one before that, with the previous one coded for "Medium" in the same way.
All these aspects are simply displayed in the cabs of older stock with three lights marked "H", "M" and "L" (Hög, Mellan and Låg in Swedish, which correspond to High, Medium and Low). A bell sounds (and must be canceled with a pushbutton) when the aspect changes to Låg, even if the train is already being operated at a low speed. Otherwise, if the train's speed exceeds the permitted speed, a buzzer sounds. The latter occurs both if the T/O should exceed the speed currently permitted, or if the aspect "drops" to Mellan, for example.
It's a pretty simple system that has provided good throughput and a good safety record since 1950. It was replaced on Tub1 (the "green lines"), the oldest part of the system, a few years ago, mostly because it was becoming difficult to obtain replacement parts for the maintenance of the older system. The replacement system is Siemens's LZB 700, IIRC.
Regards,
Tim
PS I'll plug my site again:
Tim's Rail Transit Photos
Photos of the Stockholm underground, as well as a couple of Stockholm light rail lines.
so if PATH is hiring how can i get down off that? email me back. cause i could use a job right now quick!
Just go to www.Panynj.gov
click the employment section and there should be a listing of jobs. It should also be on the MTA's site.
And for our subtalkers/carpenters there is an opening for an engineering position for the MTA. You must have a degree in engineering and must be working in engineering for a minimal of 15 years.
I was a carpenter for 13 years. But, a degree in engineering? They want an engineer, not a carpenter.
I have to look into that. If PATH is hiring I may bit.
They prefer two years experience.
Extra engineer switching is the job title. No work yet on pay.
For the (J) trains departing Jamaica Center terminus from Monday 0400 to Friday before 2400, they terminate at Broad St. ok. Does the (J) and/or [(Z) if operating] trains use the tailtracks south of Broad St. station to turn back all the time for all these trains?
During the rest of the week and weekend schedules according to the MTA it terminates at Chambers St. Does it use the Weekday Southbound platform (Western Island Platform) as the Terminating platform? As a result, the Weekday Northbound platform (Eastern Island platform) will not be accessible?
No, soemtimes we turn in station on the midnights, which was another big thread in the past.
and
No because you answered with the problem yourself.
A couple of nights ago out on my trusty bike (I've herad that someone else here is also abiker, hope to see you some time) and saw a corona redbird cossing the bridge. It was heading southbound. Aside from the this week's sighting, I also saw another redbird heading in the opposite direction just a couple of weeks ago. Both were ofa full length, 11 car train. Any resaon for this? Were they just going to Coney Island Shops for an overhaul???? Repairs? Or is the TA planning on using them as work trains as the 142 and 62 replace their current assginments. As an asdie I was told that an R-142 was sighted on the 7 line this week, he just wasn't sure if it was a 142 (he's kinda new to railfanning).
-George's Pool Hall
>>A couple of nights ago out on my trusty bike and saw a Corona redbird crossing the bridge.<<
The Corona fleet is repaired at Coney Island. All major repairs are at Coney, Corona is just a inspection barn. These moves are usually at night from what I heard.
When the Redbirds are retired and the R-??? replace them, they'll be making the same moves down Broadway, over the bridge to Coney island Shops.
Bill "Newkirk"
I Posted it also. It was Thurs Night. I was on the head end of a Work Train going to Corona Yard, so you might have seen me as well as the 7 train.
Robert
You know what I just thought about is, that I was at CIY on Friday night and I did not see any of these cars in the Yard. I know I would have made them out becouse most of them were the 2000 WS cars. Dose anyone know if that were sent up to 207 Yard for scrapping or some were else?
Robert
If I'm not mistaken, the R-62As are going to replace the "Redbirds" on the No. 7 line in time.
#3 West End Jeff
"If I'm not mistaken, the R-62As are going to replace the 'Redbirds' on the No. 7 line in time."
Maybe, maybe not. For the umpteenth time:
N-O D-E-C-I-S-I-O-N H-A-S B-E-E-N M-A-D-E!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
David
O-K!! We'll wait and see what happens.
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe this is a stupid question, but I didn't know it was possible for a redbird to go on the Manhattan Bridge. Aren't those trains a different width than the trains that usually go across the bridge? I always thought they weren't compatible?
IRT trains can run on BMT/IND trackage, they are narrower and shorter. The tripcocks do have to be changed though.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks guys.. So I assume the oppisite can't happen though, right? BMT running on an IRT track?
That's correct. You would end up with a whole lot of platform edges sheared off. Among other things.
Peace,
ANDEE
It may be possible to travel certain distances from the connections of the divisions before you get to a station. There may still be signals & other electric equipment, through spans, etc. though.
I have in mind going down the express tracks of the 4 line from Concourse to just short of Burnside; the 1 line from 207th yard to 240th St. yard or the other way to just short of Dyckman, the 7 line to just short of Woodside, and the middle track at Junius St. (diesel locomotive required for ramp). I wish they would do something like that just for pictures.
What size are the locomotives and what div do they fall under?
All work train equipment is sized to fit the IRT so that it can be used anywhere in the system.
This is true...chassis have acceptance plates which point out this fact and most motorised equipment has trips for all divisions. CI Peter
And they are in their own division-- C.
You would end up with a whole lot of platform edges sheared off. Among other things.
My unprofessional impression is that the trains would probably get the worst of that battle, not the platforms.
Of course, even if they did manage to give the IRT platforms and tunnels an unwanted shave, they'd still have to deal with those curves. Save me a ringside seat for a 75-footer trying to negotiate the curve between Hunterspoint and 45th/Courthouse Square.
:-) Andrew
While doing some reading from the ERA NY Bulletin (1970), there were a rash of Div B cars mixed in Div A cut and tearing up wooden edges on the platform while traveling on Div A lines.
But then, most platforms (at least today) are concrete.
OK. I'm no expert. Who would win this deadly battle, the steel trains or the concrete platforms?
:-) Andrew
The loser would be the wooden edge that is on the concrete platform.
The smart money says...platform. IF they were all made of concrete. If wood, then it's a toss up. :)
Like an R-10 in a train of R-12/14s? Crr-rrrunn-nnch!!!
i don't think B Division cars can fit on A Division. However A can fit on B Division. i have seen redbirds in B Division territory before.
How about an R68 on the #5 going between 138th & 149th/Grand Concourse? LOL.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd like to see that.:-)
If that happened, I'd show you one U-shaped hippo which will need to be pried out of that tunnel.
..and that is one NICE looking tunnel to boot!
Tho you'd think since r62/a's can roll through
there... with them being contractually just
prior to r68's you'd think the two WOULDN'T
have such far pried differences in size/form.
It would be VERY interesting to have a 75' car try and round the curve betweeb Hunter's Point and 45th Rd. Courthouse Square.
#3 West End Jeff
Maybe they can try it out in a few years as part of a "Farewell to the R-44s" tour. :-)
I have a better idea: run them around City Hall or South Ferry loop.
Tougher on the cars, but it's easier to get the 75-footers over from the Astoria line to the Flushing line at Queensboro Plaza -- though thinking about it now, I'm not sure if the R-44s could make the first turn out of the QP station to get to 45th Road (Heads up, lower level Queens-bound traffic on the Queensboro Bridge!)
Forget the elevated curves (they could always be rebuilt)---but what about the Steinway tubes? Aren't they narrow even by IRT standards.
Something like that. If they were any tighter, you'd hear, "Take a deep breath and hold it!" as a train left Grand Central or Vernon Blvd.
Or, given what would happen to the sides of the cars when the trains entered the Steinway tunnel, maybe the MTA could put a PA announcment at Vernon-Jackson similar to the one at Union Square:
"Attention passengers. Please stand clear of the moving walls as trains enterand leave this station."
Dont scrap 'em... just cram em down a few loops
or choice tunnels and you'd save yourself the
demolition work... just make sure to tow them
out afterwards.... cuz we still gots a RR to
run...
Demolition Derby with Subway Cars?
Do you think the TV stations could pre-empt Monster Truck Rallies for that?
:0)
Not unless we could throw in a few BMT standards for kicks.:-)
No need to preempt regular programing. Make it a special episode of Subway Q & A on Metro TV :)
--Mark
Heck...even the sloppy chassis Redbirds can't make it on Division A anymore...the marks from crashing into platforms ALWAYS get flagged during inspection. CI Peter
Too much play on the kingpins? Tape it up! :)
We could take a pair and park them on each end of the Joralemon, BCO them, bag the controllers in multiple and watch the sparks fly. Maybe we could even place a WCBS railfan window smash cam for posterity.
I *like* it! Heh.
As long as we've accepted a yellow over yellow with the original topic AND since the G train is headed the way of the Culver shuttle, a long, slow, agonizing death - why not at least give them G riders something to thrill to?
What I propose is that we turn the G somewhere else, allowing us to rip up the layup just south of Smith/9 and knock out a few sections of track south of the interlock. Then, beginning at the lower platform of Bergen (this will encourage the rebuild we all know we need) we launch them up the hill. past Smith/9 where we diverge them onto missing track. Cameras can then delight in them crashing through the street, possibly piling up (with wagering to help an ailing state economy) as to which way they point?
OR ... we could rebuild Van Cortland station with three tracks, one of which terminates in a slight ramp ... then run trains off the end, perhaps with jet assisted takeoff where judges can determine the best car number in the fleet by distance to asphalt! I smell Paper Voo Teevee here ... plus, with the wider cars, there'll be kindling wood to sell to folks with fireplaces. Everybody wins ...
Why do you have to pick on Van Cortlandt!!Hehe
Why can't you choose E 241 White Plains for that??
Simple. I used to live there ... what's YOUR excuse? Heh. But the "facilities" at 242 are in better shape and E241 ... secondly, there's BRICKS under that asphalt. Makes for better dispersion of the brown powder when the rustbirds "kiss the sidewalk" ... TV crews LOVE that sheet ... big splash, gets airtime - "if it bleeds, it leeds" ...
Besides ... 242 has a LOT more "handle monkeys" with a deathwish. :)
(to the foamies - "handle monkey" equals "switchman" ... handle monkeys drop and grab so often that their wrench has a tit that's more gnawed off than a 9th avenue hooker. Whoops ... TRUE "subtalk" ... forgive me. :)
I think that it would be more interesting to demolish some junk subway cars rather than to see monster trucks. When the R-44s are up for scrapping they should have a demolition derby with a few of those cars perhaps. Save a few R-44s for historical purposes too. Don't demolish them all.
#3 West End Jeff
It would have to be on the Fox Network.
IRT trains can run on IND or BMT track, but not in passenger service. They are narrower than IND/BMT trains, so they'll fit. However the gap between train and platform is considered unsafe, so this is not allowed in passenger serivice. It's perfectly kosher for non-revenue moves.
:-) Andrew
the irt trains can run on the bmt, ind lines the only problem is that it has a BIG gap at the stations. so mta would have to steal the staten island railway signs that say "watch the gap" and put them on the trains. remember track layout is still the same its the tunnels that are different in the divisions.
a big GAP like the LIRR ...??
ive never been on lirr so i wouldnt know but irt cars are smaller than bmt,ind cars so there would be a gap
I can only say about the experence i did see the gap betwen the station platform & the train on all of the stations
even at the rebuilt hempstead station .... i dunno why.......
In all likelyhood, your friend saw EP011-EP0113, R134 work motors hauling trash. I've seen them on many an occasion late nights as well. They look like R-62's with no windows and one set of doors on each side.
R-127 and R-134 work motors illustrated roster.
Thanks I didn't think of that when he asked ;)
Considering this the half way mark to the Straphanger campaign's anual best and worst subway line for 2002, which subway line would make first or last place. I feel the Lexington Avenue line may take home the best subway service with the clean and reliable 6 train.
Then again I did wan't the 4 too get that title last year.
As for my job hunt I'm going in for another interview with the MTA(hopefully no mistakes this time)for a web designer.
Was it ever planned to extend beyond 205th St (Bronx)..The relay tracks now end @ Webster Av...My assumption is an extension east would surface to "bridge" over the Metro North tracks..Bronx River & Parkway...I wonder if this was the thought...Would be nice today to wind up in Coop City...and service the 40000 there.
Yes indeed, once upon a time there was a plan to do that but it never materialized. That's the reason for the turn in that direction in the first place as part of the "second system" though I don't know if it was planned to go all the way out east at the time.
Probably the line would have been built. But NYC had the chance to buy the ROW from the NY,W&B for les than what it would have cost to build a new line.
It was thought at one point to run the line under Bronx Park, across to Burke. Ave., then east, so there would be a line to the East Bronx. Fortunately, or unfortunately, however you see it, they bought the Dyre Ave. Line, so they didn't need it.
Actually, it would have been a major undertaking....at the end of 205th St., across Webster, the terrain drops severly into Bronx Park, then rises very steeply also at the OTHER end of the park, Bronx Blvd.
Selkirk could probably describe it better, but basically I think there would have been serious grade problems to overcome...
Yeah, there is a serious dip there, but then again it could have gone deep under the harlem line or it could have been done like the elevated subway section along the concourse near 174th ... I'm sure it wouldn't have been an extraordinary undertaking. Personally, I would have preferred that to hijacking the New York, Westchester and Back. :)
Yeah, but they wouldn't (and, I wouldn't, actually) have wanted to disturb the park...Selkirk, you may know this, since you know my neighborhood so well..
When you walk down the hill at the end of 205th. St., into Bronx Park, when you get to the bottom of the hill there is a concrete path about 15 feet wide, that takes you to the other side of the Bronx...do you know the one I'm speaking of?? It takes you from the end of 205th St. to the beginning of Burke Ave., at Bronx Blvd.?
As you walk along it, you pass under the Bronx River Parkway...
The only place that I can thnk of where you can pass under the Bronx River Pkwy is in that vicinity is Allerton Av/Kazimiroff Blvd. I have often walked to the end of 204th St, down a set of stairs, and through a park towards the above mentioned streets...
-Stef
Yep ... I remember that very well ... in fact, in the movie "The Wanderers" they made extensive use of the bridge at 204th Street as well as that walkway which goes under the parkway and OVER the Bronx "river" ... used to walk it often.
The reason I ask, I have heard that that walkway is actually a remnant of the ORIGINAL Bronx River Parkway..in other words, a car road!!!
By the way, if you ever read the book of The Wanderers, it takes place on Burke Ave. and Gun Hill Road.
Of course, my friends down here in North Carolina who have seen The Wanderers absolutely don't believe me when I say that's my neighborhood. :)
Same problem up here, with the exception that they YAWN first. :)
I used the service last night on my return trip from Chicago, and I would have to say that I'm impressed.
Since I have a monthly NJT ticket, I had to pay $5.00 for using the monorail and station. Considering the gas, tolls, and traffic up and down the Turnpike, this is a bargain.
The only potential problem was the westbound service to Jersey Avenue and Trenton at this time in the evening (6:00 PM). You have to take a South Amboy local and connect across the platform in Rahway. The Jersey Avenue train made it to Rahway before the South Amboy local did, and I thought I was screwed. (Subway mentality, I guess.) However, they held the Jersey Avenue train and I was able to make a perfect connection.
The good thing starting on Monday is that there will be two trains to Trenton stopping at the airport, Train 5083 @ 6:03 PM and Train 3869 @ 6:37 PM.
I'm hooked.
I've used Newark AirTrain twice and liked it (both times via Amtrak). I used it shortly after it opened for service and there weren't many peple in the station.
Passing through on Amtrak recently, I noticed more passenger activity there.
I think it is really going to catch on.
I don't know of any other way getting to/from Midtown Manhattan to Newark Airport, much less ANY New York area airport, in 20 minutes.
So you can buy a $5 AirTrain ticket to cross from the AirTrain portion to the NJT/Amtrak portion? I used the station a few weeks ago and didn't know how to do that. (I only saw the machines that issued $5 tickets for going the other way, towards the airport terminals, on the other side of the fare gates.)
At the ticket vending machines going towards the gates, the code is 099, and you get the $5 ticket to go through.
There were people in the information booth who were most helpful.
I used the service on Wednesday to go from the Airport to Penn Station-NY and I was impressed. I took some photos - will post them soon.
So in scanning the MTA's Second Avenue Subway site, I noticed something I missed before.
Between 42nd and 72nd, there's only one station, at 54th. Seemed an odd location. But down at the bottom, they mention connex to various lines including "the 53rd Street line". Aha, that explains the station location (though why not call it "53rd Street" even if it isn't *exactly centered* on 53rd, since most people know the tunnel is under 53rd ???).
But, in thinking about it ... that's a MAJOR piece of construction. The 53rd Tunnel is DEEEEEEEEEEP there and descending. Since the Lex/53rd station extends from Lex eastward past Third Ave, a 2nd Ave station on the E/V has gotta go from Second to at least First.
I'm thinking long escalators from one deepish line (just 10 blocks north, 2nd Ave has to be deep enough to interchange with 63rd Street) to one verrrrry deep line.
Any speculations on how they might go about digging out the 53rd Street tunnel in a place that I have to think was never planned for a station, and connecting it to a 2nd Ave station upstairs?
AND ... I forgot to add ... that will really be how they take the load off the IRT, if they can get all those inbound Queens riders to transfer to the 2nd Ave line.
Of course, the Stubway doesn't let em do that [grin].
I wonder if they'd ever sever the connection between IND Lex-53rd and IRT 51st Street? Making that station a non-connecting local would probably speed up dwell times considerably.
To do what the MTA plans, they will have to build a passageway at least three-quarters the length of the block between Second and Third Aves., with escallators (and ADA elevators) at the west end to get paseengers down to platform level for the IND Lexington Ave. station. The walk would be about like the one between the L at Sixth Ave. and the 1/2/3 at 14th and Seventh.
My bigger question is; has the MTA ever gone and looked at Second Ave. where they want to put the station? East 54th St. is not a major commercial street there, and while it does allow for the IND link-up, they might as well have just painted a "Sue Me" sign on their backs for at least some of the residents in that area.
If you're going to have to build a walkway that's a block or so long anyway, why not put the station in a more logical spot, at Second Ave. between 57th and 59th Streets. The main exits to the street could be at 57th, a major two-way street, and 59th, where the city already owns a large piece of property for the aerial tramway to Roosevelt Island, and the block-long walkway can be build diagonally beneath that site and then down 60th Street, where it can hook up not only with the BMT Lexington Ave. station and the N, R and possibly W lines, but with the IRT local and express lines at 59th (A connection to the 53rd St. station would only hook the Second Ave. trains up with the No. 6 on the Lex).
Both 57th and 59th streets are far less residential and more commercial blocks than 54th, and the station would be far enough away from the 63rd St. tunnel so that any flying junction between that line and the Second Ave. tracks south of 63rd would have plenty of room to hook into the line before reaching the platform at 57th-59th streets.
Would a station at Second Ave and 53rd Street require an additional stop on the IND 53rd St line (E and V)? See Alignment URL = http://www.mta.info/planning/sas/sas_alignment.htm
I guess that would be the equivalent of what Boston's Red Line does downtown, or Miami Metrorail does to reach Overtown station from the downtown station. A 20 second two block run.
See my response to J Lee's posting in the other part of the thread ....
Yes, I just saw that, thank you. A very good discussion.
Oh, they'd connect it to the east end of the existing Lex-53rd station. Well, THAT makes more sense. And the connector might not be quite as long as you're envisioning.
Looking at the TA's Midtown East neighborhood map, the Lex-53rd station extends about a third of the way (120'?) east of Third to Second. Maps aren't to exactly scale, so hard to tell. I'm assuming it's a standard 600' station and its west end obviously starts slightly east of Lex. It's 400' from Second to Third, so the escalator might only be 450' or so. Not horrendous, shorter than the 400' from 6th to 7th Avenues to connect to/from F/L and 1/2/3.
If you're going to have to build a walkway that's a block or so long anyway, why not put the station in a more logical spot, at Second Ave. between 57th and 59th Streets.
Uh, normally I'm with you, J Lee. (What IS your first name anyway?) But on this one, it's because it wouldn't connect the 2nd Ave line to the Queens Blvd line. Doh! Isn't a major goal to take all those Queens Boulevard riders and get em OFF the IRT?
A connection to the 53rd St. station would only hook the Second Ave. trains up with the No. 6 on the Lex
Yeah, but no one in their right mind would get off at a Second and 54th station to get to the 51st station on the Lex IRT. Far, far, FAR quicker to walk on the surface. The odd tourist will be deceived, since the TA will likely put a green 6 circle on the entrances over there, but New Yorkers will know. You'd have to go into the Second Ave station, take the escalators down to the Lex-53rd platform, walk its length, up the escalators at the other end, walk the underground corridor, down the stairs, under the IRT, up the stairs (inbound anyway) ... yeessshh!
To connect to east side IRT, more likely to get off at whatever stub or Grand Central Connector they're talking about at 42nd. (Though the connection there to the Flushing Line raises many of the same issues ... )
It's almost as if they should have built the 63rd St. connector to come out on Third Avenue.
I have doubts that a 53St/2Av transfer would be that popular, even with super-duper escalators and moving sidewalks.
It's almost as if they should have built the 63rd St. connector to come out on Third Avenue.
Welllllllll ... the exits are at the far west end to the Lex/63 entrance. Could you build new exits at the east end? Anyone know if there were any provisions built into the east end of the Lex/63 station for this purpose? With two lines, that station might get more traffic than it does today, though perhaps more internal transfers than out to the street.
I have doubts that a 53St/2Av transfer would be that popular, even with super-duper escalators and moving sidewalks.
Depends where the Second Ave line goes. Queens Blvd connecting to a quick downtown run to the east side of the financial district might be popular. E train is hugely crowded, has many more stops, and deadends at WTC, further west. Or, a Nassau connection offers Queens Blvd to Brooklyn that differs from the G.
there is an exit to 3rd ave on the 63rd st line,it just not in use....
there is an exit to 3rd ave on the 63rd st line,it just not in use....
No kidding? Staircases, escalators and elevators already in place? (well, escalator structure anyway) I *wondered* about that!
It doesn't require an elevator. There already is one.
Where would this hidden entrance be?
Where would this hidden entrance be?
The Third Avenue end of the 63rd Street station, of course! I don't know exactly where it would emerge to the street, but love9400 says it's there. From the TA's neighborhood map, the station ends under the west side of Third, so presume it'd land on the NW or SW corner of Lex & 63rd.
But has anyone seen it? Or are they assuming because the platform is under 63/3 there MUST be an entrance? At the north end of the platforms there I haven't seen anything that looks like a way to the street Maybe there is an emergency exit. But the platforms are really deep there.
A shell of a control area is at Third Avenue & E. 63rd Street. I've seen pictures.
David
A shell of a control area is at Third Avenue & E. 63rd Street. I've seen pictures.
I've been there... see this post. And I believe that Mark Feinman has some shots in his tape "You Can't Get There From Here"... I'd review the tape to confirm but my wife has the VCR otherwise occupied at the moment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there a place, either at the corner of 63/3 or the N/E of the platforms where I can see some trace of the stairways?
I've not viewed the area from the surface so I don't know, but I would presume that there must be something visible - perhaps what would appear as a standard emergency exit cover. There isn't anything visible from the public area of the station; all of this is behind walls in the unfinished shell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Knock a hole in my basement. Third Avenue is sealed with concrete vaults...there is SERVICE access on the sidewalk of 63rd Street. CI Peter
Nope ... don't have anything about the 63rd St/3rd Ave shell. Missed that tour.
--Mark
You mean I've been some place that you haven't?!?! :-)
I did take some pictures, but they're about the same quality as my shot of the Roosevelt Avenue terminal station sign... LOUSY.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, they are there. I'm not exactly sure where they come up at, but I've seen them while on a Transit Museum tour of the unfinished shell portion of the station. There's a full mezzanine, basically a twin to the one that's open, at the Third Avenue end.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It wasn't built because the original concept called for an underground shopping mall that the neighbors objected to. I live at 63 and 3rd. CI Peter
The entrance would probably be on the NW corner of 63rd&Third, I think there is a small courtyard located there.
Do you think the landlord of the building would allow a subway entrence there?
Re: 63rd and 3rd.....MY home!!! Street is steel reinforced concrete bunkers. My apartment house had a tie fire from the original supports that smoked my building out. I endured two years of 24 hour activity...16 of which were multiple charges that made everything go up and down. There is no structural possiblility from my experience that would add an additional entrance...the shopping mall was forced by community legislation to be cancelled at the time when Alexanders did business. You guys don't read all the posts...this matter had been discussed weeks ago. CI Peter
Juice: I'm confused. A previous poster said he had toured the underground portions of the unused eastern exit several years ago. And frankly, for a four-track station I'd be shocked if they HADN'T designed it with entrances at both ends. When Second Ave kicks in, that station will be fairly busy. So are you saying there is NO eastern entrance ???
I live above the 63rd Street subway and no entrance was built in my lifetime that I know of at 63 and 3. The original concept was to have a high end underground shopping complex but that was squashed by the community because of the high crime rate brought by Alexanders and the Lex subway entrances. There is only a ventilation tower on the site of the Gulf gas station which was at 63 and 2. CI Peter
The Shell of the fare control area, and the staircases are there already. So are the streetstairs, which end underneath the concrete side walk. The would come out at 63 & Third, not in the building, but in the small courtyard on the NW corner.The only things not present are the tiles, elevator and escalators. The shaft for the elevator and mechanical rooms for the escalators are also present.
I just realised what you were talking about....the courtyard. I never walk over there......too many rats at night scurrying about. Jacks candy store was located there.....his son died in a motorcycle accident directly related to the rise of elevated plating over the excavation. CI Peter
So this ground is...... cursed!
An ill wind has begun to stir.
Steven King must hear about this!
I guess that answers the question about the choice of tile color?
avid
You don't suppose that's where they filmed part of the foot chase in Nighthawks, do you?
there is an exit to 3rd ave on the 63rd st line,it just not in use. whats the sense if there isn't enough ridership to use it?
Not unless they closed the lexington avenue connection with the #6 which is unlikely.
N Bwy
JV -- A connection at 59th St. would allow access to the Queens Blvd. line via the R at Lexington and 60th -- admidittely, not the same type of access as at 53rd and Lex, but the 60th St. tunnel would allow both Queens Blvd. and Astoria riders access to the Second Ave. line (and you can throw in Flushing line riders as well, if the MTA decided a United Nations station on the 7 or a walkway from Second-42nd to the No. 7 Grand Central stop was not feasible).
As for the walk to the IRT, any pedestrian link between the Lex and the Second Ave. line is going to be a bit of a hike, except of course at the proposed 125th St. terminal or at Brooklyn Bridge, if the Second Ave. line is hooked into the Nassau Loop. I just think if you're going to give passengers the option of a long transfer walk, a connection within a commercial zone such at 57th-59th Sts. makes more sense than doing it at 54th Sts.
John
a connection within a commercial zone such at 57th-59th Sts. makes more sense than doing it at 54th Sts.
Well, yes and no. Yes 'cause it raises overall station utilization 'cause you get people entering/leaving instead of just transferring underground.
But no 'cause I still think loadings on E plus V (or reconstituted F through 53rd, or whatever) exceed those on R train. Don't know what happens when you add in N from Astoria, though, not to mention 7 train.
I assume that someone, somewhere deep in the planning bowels of the TA has some sort of data about trip origination/termination points and why connecting to 53rd makes more sense than 59th. Or, put another way, why E/V is better than R/N/7.
Oh for a BART-type system that records entrance AND exit! Then we wouldn't be disputing; the data would be there. Though it still gets tricky when you add new lines, trying to figure the resulting reshuffle in peoples' patterns.
you mean E/V/7 vs N/R/7
I agree that for Queens Blvd riders who have no intent on getting off at Second Ave. but want to use the new line to go either downtown or uptown, a station at 54th St. with a transfer to the E and V trains makes more sense. But from a "What's going on above ground?" standpoint, odds are a station at 57th-59th and Second would get more use, because there are more offices, stores, movie theaters, etc., in that area. You would only have the transfer to the R that way, but I think the MTA would have a better chance getting a Second Ave. station in at a spot where there would be less neighborhood concerns, and it just seems like putting a stop on a relatively non-commercial street like 54th is just asking for more delays as the result of future court cases.
I think the MTA would have a better chance getting a Second Ave. station in at a spot where there would be less neighborhood concerns, and it just seems like putting a stop on a relatively non-commercial street like 54th is just asking for more delays as the result of future court cases.
We're close to beating a dead horse, but there are two issues here: Construction annoyance, which is temporary, and on-street entrances (which are permanent).
Construction annoyance, yeah, probably. But that'll apply all along the route, and may (I hope) be mitigated by the idea that the very neighbors being inconvenienced will one day get a brand spanking new subway line of their own.
As for entrances, considering the incredibly modest and contextural Lex/63rd entrance, I'd think the TA would go out of its way to integrate into an existing building at 54th/Second. I'm sure they'd rather have demolished the building ... but they didn't. Don't recall 54th/Second, but unless there are gigantic condo towers there I'm sure they could find some small building whose storefront and underground rights they could use. Don't know how or why the Lex/63rd one was done that way.
IIRC, 54th and Second is mainly low-rises, with townhouses on the side street, and mainly small business and restaurants in the buildings fronting Second Ave. on either side of 54th.
While I agree the construction is temporary, if they did deep-bore, and having had to endure the deep bore work on the Red Line when I was living in Washington 20 years ago, the areas in between the stations are virtually untouched, while all the wooden planks on the street, construction equipment, et al access the tunnel at the stations, which would mean if you lived at 58th St. or 49th St. no problem, but between 53rd and 55th, look out (the same would hold true for all the other planned stops along the line).
I suppose you could say better to have all that mess down around 54th St. than right in front of the Queensboro Bridge where it would create a 2-4 year traffic nightmare, but again I think the odds of having a negative neighborhood reaction would be greater at 54th than with a station at 57th-59th Streets. The people will say they're only being made to endure this for the convienence of Queens Blvd. riders, and it would make more sense to build a station entrance three blocks north at 57th.
Of course, we'll never know for sure unless the MTA actually gets close to starting to build the thing, and by then the entire neighborhood may be completely different from what it is today.
People are funny - you know the whiners will be the first to ride!
I lived in Philly from '89-93 while attending medical school. They started excavating Vine Street to build I-676 (Vine Expressway) when I arrived, and finished as I graduated. I lived right next to the project, at 15th and Vine. There were a few hassles, sure, but you know what? I survived, and so did everyone else, and that was one highway project that really benefitted the area a lot.
Are rubber pacifiers on the procurement list for the Second Av subway (to stick in people's mouths when they start whining)?
(Of course, neighborhood payouts should be. A new playground here, street beautification there, kiss some rear end over here, etc.)
The MTA should consider opening a community project office, such as what AirTrain has, to address concerns and show off project models.
The MTA should consider opening a community project office, such as what AirTrain has, to address concerns and show off project models.
That sounds like a good idea. The more the community feels involved in the decision/planning process, the more likely they are to support it. A prime example was the issue of closing token booths that came up this past year.
Are rubber pacifiers on the procurement list for the Second Av subway (to stick in people's mouths when they start whining)?
I think I saw them on the last page - they even have straps so they can't fall out. Now I remember, they're listed right under the "Cash Bus," which will look like a metrocard vending bus with dollar signs on the sides and the ads say, "2nd Ave subway project: Get your shut-up money here!" :)
"I think I saw them on the last page - they even have straps so they can't fall out. Now I remember, they're listed right under
the "Cash Bus," which will look like a metrocard vending bus with dollar signs on the sides and the ads say, "2nd Ave subway
project: Get your shut-up money here!" :) "
That's the bus with the special door in the back just for politicians...
That's the bus with the special door in the back just for politicians...
So that's what that door is for! I was wondering why it had a velvet rope outside...
by then the entire neighborhood may be completely different from what it is today.
I'd say townhouse owners and small businesspeople would scream the loudest.
Apartment dwellers, esp. in high rises, probably won't complain as much since only a few of them will feel the vibrations. Second Avenue has been getting high-rise luxury apartment buildings here and there, as developers complete the decades-long process of assembling blockfronts or partial blockfronts. (The easy ones are gone, now it's patience in waiting for tenants to leave and for the next up cycle.)
Ron's idea of a community outreach office is VERY GOOD. Perhaps the TA can learn from the PA on this one? If and when construction on the Manhattan end of the non-Stubway part ever fires up, mind you ... I give it 10 years or more.
Why can't you have stops at both 53rd AND 59th/60th? If they both come in necessary to far enough apart to build two platforms. Maybe 53rd St can be a half-train platform or something and only open rush hours, or if stats show otherwise 60th St would suffer that. I think if ridership stats show this is necessary, then it would be a good idea.
You could do that. Bear in mind, though, that subway stations are by far the most expensive part of the subway. A station costs 3-4 times as much to build as the tunnel portions between them. So when you're picking station sites, you have to be careful to justify each one, lest you run out of money before the subway tunnel reaches its intended destination.
You don't want your initial operating segment's train starting passengers at 125th Street, and stopping at the wall just shy of 63rd..
"Ladies and gentlemen, your attention please. Only the first car of this train will exit at 63rd. Please come forward to the first car and use the exit marked with the blue light."
"People waiting to board - please allow departing passengers to clear the sidewalk grille before descending to your train. Hand your fare to the conductor."
:0)
The distance between 2nd and 3rd Aves. (about .15 mi.) is less than between 6th and 7th (about .20 mi.).
The distance between 2nd and 3rd Aves. (about .15 mi.) is less than between 6th and 7th (about .20 mi.).
Are you sure? What are your sources? I've always had it as an article of faith that "long blocks" (the avenues) are 1056' long, or four "short blocks" which are 264' high center to center. This works out to exactly 20 short blocks per mile, and gives 200' blockfronts with 64' for sidewalks and roadways. Which is why you tended to get 8 25-foot wide building lots on the blockfronts.
This works with the exception of Lex (3.5th Avenue) and Madison (4.5th Avenue). Avenues A, B, C and D also don't fit; they're actually side-street width not avenue width, and closer together.
If I'm wrong, tell me. It will rock my world, but I'll survive ....
My source is Hagstrom's Atlas, which is very accurate.
You're right about the short blocks. They average exactly 264' all the way from E 1st up to W 193rd. Possibly there are some variations due to the wide streets like 42nd, but the average is exactly .05 mi.
Also, I live between 2nd and 3rd, and I can tell you it's just about 3x264' (my pace is almost exactly 36" and I've paced it off).
Same is true all the way east (2nd to 1st to A/York to B/East End to C to D). By the way, York Ave. used to be called Avenue A (there are still a few signs built into building walls).
West of Third the distance between numbered avenues (Park = 4th) is roughly 4x264', though I believe 5th to 6th is slightly longer than the rest.
The distance between Fifth and Sixth Aves. is slightly longer than the distance between the other numbered avenues. Also, in terms of future four-track construction possibilities on Second Ave., the street itself narrows down about 10 feet between 23rd and Houston streets, but would probably still be wide enough for local stops at 23rd and 14th with side platforms that wouldn't undercut the buildings on either side of the street.
I would assume that a 2nd Ave/54th Street station would hook up with the (E)(V) at the Lex/53rd St station, which after all extends to Third. No need to build a new station on the 53rd St line.
:-) Andrew
David: Since the MTA seems to have removed direct links from its site to the neighborhood maps (or at least I can't find 'em now), would you be willing to link to them permanently from NYCsubway.org? (Or haven't I found that either?)
Along with Peter's track book, they're an invaluable resource in working out system fantasies ....
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/localmaps/
I'm unaware of links for the maps of the other boroughs. Such maps do exist, tho' perhaps not in net-ready form.
Great link. I wasn't aware that these existed on the net. Hopefully they'll add maps for the rest of the system.
Alan Glick
I'll add the link to the MTA site entry in the Transfer Station.
I'll add the link to the MTA site entry in the Transfer Station.
Great, thanks! I suspect many people will find it very useful. Now if we could only get the TA to put up the OTHER four boroughs ....
I just came accross this tidbit while looking up a reference for a D-Type Chicken Coupe.
On October 28 and November 24,1960 the IND operated a "Titan Subway Football Special" from Jamaica to the Polo Grounds. The train left 179 Street-Jamaica at 931am and ran non-stop to 42 Street-8 Avenue (Lower Level) where they picked up more pasengers. The train then relayed on track A-5 and arrived at the Polo Grounds at 1025am. Over nine hundred people were carried and the fare was $.50.
PS: The Titans were in the American Football League and today are known as the New York Jets.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Would the equipment have been R1-9 or R10?
I don't know but since it came out of Jamaica I would venture a guess that is was R-1/9's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Nine HUNDRED???? Everybody who went to that game mustve used the IND..The old Titans were an extremely mismanaged and broke franchise who might have drawn a few thousand people to their games.Their owner was on old broadcaster named Harry Wismer,who was under-financed, and given to hyperbole about attendance figures,announcing a 'crowd' of 20,000 when maybe 5,000 had shown up. {This is the source of the great Dick Young line about many of the patrons coming disguised as empty seats...]. He was forever missing laundry,travel bills,etc- Things got so bad by 63,that the players went on strike until the AFL guaranteed their paychecks! The AFL finally got fed up and put together a comsortium of buyers [Sonny Werblin, Leon Hess, etc...] to save the AFL in New York.
February 27,1961 the last High-Voltage Motor Car left NYCTA property to begin a long and well deserved retirement at the Shoreline Trolley Museum. It was of course Deckroof 3662.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's a good piece of info. I always wandered how it made it to Shoreline. By rail or by truck (or both)? Anyone have details?
-Stef
Truck. Somewhere along the line I've seen photographs of the movement.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I checked Cunningham's "Interborough Fleet," and it makes no mention how it made it up to the Shoreline.
It was trucked to the Fifth Avenue Associations Golden Anniversary parade on October 10, 1957.
It looks like Gibbs #3352 was shipped via rail to the Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine.
Seashore acquired Hi-V #3352 in 1956.
The May-June 1961 issue of the Branford Journal indicates that
3662 would be coming up "in a month or two". The same issue also
reports that cars 659 and 999 had come up to New Haven as part
of a freight train. AFAIK 3662 was brought up on a highway
trailer.
I've seen a picture of 659 and 999 on the SBK, so that was very much true.
Yikes! Those wheels must have taken a pounding on the New Haven.....
-Stef
I'm not sure if it was Tony or R-16 who asked me for the numbers of the 32 R-16s assigned to the GG back in 1966. I now have the numbers. If you would like them please e-mail me.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It wasn't me, but I actually would be interested, seeing as how R-16s are my favorite car, because they were the backbone of my favorite line.
:)
Tony: My e-mail is RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks, Larry.
I didn't want the numbers, just wanted to know how many and when.
As most of you know back in 1954 Staten Island Rapid Transit sold a total of 30 Class MUE-1's to the New York City Transit Authority. The sale consisted of 25 motors built in 1925 and the five remainng trailers built in 1926. All built by the Standard Steel Car Company.
The motors were renumbered 2900-2924 and saw serice on various southern division lines. The five trailers never ran in passenger service and in 1960 there locations were as follows:
500-out of service at Coney Island
501-Used as a Paper Bailer at Coney Island
503-Out of service-Coney Island
504-renumbered 2925 and used as yard office at Fresh Pond Yard.
508 used as a car inspectors shed at Coney Island.
500,503 and I believe 501 were scrapped in 1961 along with the the SIRT motors.
2925 x 504 was litterly thrown of the BMT by an outraged Q-Type in 1966 . She was scrapped in 1967.
508 had a more interesting career. She was acquired by the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston in 1980 and was used there as a vistors center and gift shop. Unfortunately she was destroyed by a fire set by vandals in 1992.
Larry,RedbirdR33
A few SIRT trailers were converted to motor cars while still on the SIRT to help make up for their own chronic car shortage created by the combination of selling a big chunk of their fleet to the TA and then losing before cars in the Clifton Shop fire.
Paul: Of the 10 original trailers five were converted to motors following the 1927 Tottenville Fire.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry:
Do any SIRT cars survive today?
388 (Pressed Steel, 1925) is at Branford. Don't know about any others, although it's quite possible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Three cars survive; 366 at the Seashore Trolley Museum, 388 at the Shoreline Trolley Museum and 353. I don't know the location of 353. The last I heard she was on the Travis Siding of the Staten Island Railway. Does anyone know for sure.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Travis? Wow, that's the middle of nowhere, and would be on the Staten Island RailROAD, completely isolated from the MTA operation.
If it's there, I hope it's well protected.
Paul: Apparently the three cars were acquired by the Trolley Museum of New York but they never left Staten Island. TMNY subsequently de-accessorized (is that the right word?) them from their collection. That is when the other two museums picked them up. They had all been stored on the Travis siding.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That is correct (other than the word being de-accessioned).
There were 3 cars down in that siding, at the Con Ed plant.
ca 1995. one went to Seashore, one went to Branford. The
last one is still on Staten Island and is in the worst shape
of the 3. As of a few years ago, Kingston still owned the car.
I don't know what their long-term plans are for it.
I saw 388 at Shoreline in 1995. Took a picturte of it, too. It was parked outdoors next to BMT standard 2775. Talk about appropriate.:-)
Makes for a good piece of conversation when I'm doing the "tour".
The trolley guys don't even go over there :-(
Mr rt
Larry,
501 Survived into the 1980s at 38th St Yard. I can't recall what it was used for, but it may have been a classroom car. It was replaced by R-16 #6421, around 1983 or so.
The source is an old ERA Bulletin from way back when....
-Stef
Thanks Stef: I didn't have the year that that one was scrapped.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>508 had a more interesting career. She was acquired by the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston in 1980 and was used there as a vistors center and gift shop. Unfortunately she was destroyed by a fire set by vandals in 1992<<
That SIRT car that was destroyed by a fire at the TMNY Kingston also had a smaller fire when it was parked in 36th St yard. The first fire didn't destroy it, but the second one did. I took pictures of it when it was at the SBK yard on 39th St/2nd Ave awaiting shipment to Kingston. The interior was pretty gutted. That's why they had drop ceilings in it at Kingston.
The number #508 doesn't seem correct to me. I'll check on this.
Bill "Newkirk"
The book "Gotham Turnstiles" (1992) contains several pages of color photos of these M-1 BMT Std look-a-likes.
Mr rt__:^)
Someone remembered seeing a two car set of Standards that was not a BT back in the early 60's. It may have been Selkirk TMO.
Standard 2328 was destroyed by a fire at Coney Island Yard on June 10,1961 and the remaining units, 2327 and 2329, were coupled into a two car set and placed into work service. I seemed to remember that this unit was usually parked on the north track of the 9 Avenue Lower Level. I don't know if this is the set he was looking for.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I seem to recall the two-car unit parked at 9th Avenue lower level was 2204-2206, the former of which is now the museum car.
However, the poster (it was Ed Sachs) thought that he saw a two-car ex A-unit twin pre-R27s, an apparent rebuild since it had no dead cabs. I think his time was a little off and he saw a 2400-series BT.
BTW, didn't you post that there was a northbound switch from the Brighton to the bypass pass track south of DeKalb for use by the Brighton Specials? I'm fascinated by that because I rode through there many times before the rebuild and have no memory of it. Did you ride it personally? Do you have a date/approximate date when it was taken out?
Paul: I'm sure your right about the numbers. I used to ride out there after school and I always found those two cars interesting as by that time anything lower than 2400 was in work service. I remember how far back the platform had been cut to accomadate the SBK freight trains. Even with a Standard on the track there was still a gap about
a foot between the car and the platform.
It wasn't me that made that posting about the track at Dekalb Avenue. I looked at an old map of the interlocking and about the only thing I can see is that previous to the rebuilding the 4 Avenue express tracks could access both the tunnel and the bridge whereas now they can only access the bridge.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The two-car (married pair) Standard sets which I remember from around 1960 (could be fuzzy about the date, after all that was 42 years ago) were obviously rebuilt as they had the "speckled-green" interior paint job, transverse seats removed from the car ends, and the improved interior lighting which was the easy way of spotting the rebuilds. I don't recall the numbers, but they were not the latest of the Standards, as they had the smaller side signs in the door pockets. The cabs at the ends where the two cars were joined had been completely removed, and the door controls on the consoles between the middle set of doors appeared to be inactive. (Not bad recollection after 42 years. You know what they say, you lose two things as you get older, the first is your memory, and I can't recall the other.)
I've heard about the connection that allowed Manhattan bound Brighton trains to use the DeKalb bypass tracks, but that junction was extensively rebuilt in the 1950s, and I don't remember seeing it, though I have some vague recollections of abondoned trackways that could have been this connection.
-- Ed Sachs
Was that Dekalb bypass, the one with the Blue signal light?
The one with the blue signal light was the southbound tunnel track entering DeKalb from the north. Yellow indication went right for 4th Avenue, Green went straight for Brighton, and blue went left for bypass. This was last used by Culver Expresses.
Do you know of other locations in the BMT system where a
bottom blue route aspect was used?
This was supposed to be the one and only location.
I was the one who posted that I rode on the Brighton Special skipping DeKalb using the bypass track, something I did perhaps a half-dozen times at most. I have no idea when the connection to the bypass track was removed. If there were old employee timetables available from the mid to late 1950s and early 1960s, they would show when the Brighton Specials began using DeKalb as a stop. I never saw a track connection on the southbound side.
FWIW, as I mentioned in part, my usual morning ride was on the Fourth Avenue Special, which I got on at Bay Ridge Avenue. The stops after that for me were 59th, then Pacific, then Chambers, where I changed to the Lexington Avenue Express to go to high school (Brooklyn Bridge, 14th, Grand Central, and 86th). Fourth Avenue Specials and Sea Beaches skipped 36th Street in the morning rush hour; I think that started back in the 1930s and lasted until the mid-1950s.
Others have mentioned the blue signal on the Tunnel track into DeKalb--that was the only place I know of on the BMT system where the blue indication existed. It used to be fun to be on a Culver express coming up out of the Tunnel moving onto the bypass with a Brighton express crossing at the same time coming from the Myrtle Avenue station track onto the Brighton track at DeKalb. Evening Brighton Specials came through the Tunnel and went directly into DeKalb with a green indication.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
>>Someone remembered seeing a two car set of Standards that was not a BT back in the early 60's.<<
I remember two deck roof "A" cars on the Culver Shuttle before the R-16s and 27/30s.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think it's three cars: #2712, 2683, 2701; that's what I have in the Grey Book, these would be from the MkII batch of Standards, those with the squared-off rooftops.
wayne
A few days ago I made a posting about the 2600 series A-Types placed in the middle of the 2400 series cars and said that the 2600 series count was off by one. I just came accross a reference and can now post the proper numbers.
2600-2614 - Single Unit A Types
2615-2630 - Middle unit for 2400/2401 thru 2430/2431
2632-2649 - Middle unit for 2432/2433 thru 2466/2467
2650-2699 - Single Unit A Types
What happened to 2631? She was wrecked at the Sea Beach Line portal on November 21,1959 along with 2768-9-70 and 2866-7-8.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sounds like a wicked accident if it wiped out 9 Standards. Any details?
R-16's. I do believe that it was a very bad accident but I don't have any details on what actually happened. Maybe some of the Brooklyn folks have more information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember hearing someplace that the cars involved in the accident scraped their sides on the portal entrance and tunnel walls. That is a rather sharp curve there, with a 115-degree angle. Perhaps the train was going too fast to hold the curve.
wayne
A few days ago I made a posting about the 2600 series A-Types placed in the middle of the 2400 series cars and said that the 2600 series count was off by one. I just came accross a reference and can now post the proper numbers.
2600-2614 - Single Unit A Types
2615-2630 - Middle unit for 2400/2401 thru 2430/2431
2632-2649 - Middle unit for 2432/2433 thru 2466/2467
2650-2699 - Single Unit A Types
What happened to 2631? She was wrecked at the Sea Beach Line portal on November 21,1959 along with 2768-9-70 and 2866-7-8.
Larry,RedbirdR33
They basically say the Port Authority has spent money to fix up the area around Newark Airport and the New Jersey shipping terminals, and the MTA has other financial priorities, so the PA should foot the bulk of the costs of unifying the WTC transit complex.
Port can't flub downtown hub
Great article.
So if they are extending the LIRR from Downtown Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan, how about Jersey Transit, too?
Depends on how they did it -- an LIRR link coming across from the Flatbush Ave. terminal would have no way of accessing the NJT trains, but an LIRR connection downtown via Penn Station would. Presumably, a line like that would either travel down 11th or 12th Ave. and then West Street, Washington Street or Greenwich St. to the WTC area -- though if it went down 12th Ave. and West St., odds are it would be elevated because of the high water table so close to the Hudson.
The down side to the latter idea is it would free up exactly zero track space at Penn Station for other NJT trains, since the LIRR would still need to pass through the station (and presumably stop to pick up and drop of passengers) on its way to and from lower Manhattan. And any NJT trains that came into Penn Station would have to reverse direction to get downtown via the far west side route, or bypass Penn completely. An LIRR route from Flatbush (assuming they could negotiate the spaghetti of subway tunnels in downtown Brooklyn) combined with the future 63rd St. connection to Grand Central would allow a major cutback in LIRR trains coming out of Penn, and that track space could be converted to use by NJT trains.
What I had in mind was run NJ Transit trains directly into Lower Manhattan via two new tunnels.
It should be easy enough to get NJ Transit trains to Journal Square, because the Pennsylvania RR used to run trains through there, and from there 2 new tunnels to a new station in Lower Manhattan.
It would make PATH trains from Newark to Journal Square superfluous because NJ Transit riders would have a one seat ride to Lower Manhattan.
Just a pipe dream, really..........
What I had in mind was run NJ Transit trains directly into Lower Manhattan via two new tunnels. It should be easy enough to get NJ Transit trains to Journal Square ... and from there 2 new tunnels to a new station in Lower Manhattan.
Well, that's one way to do it. BUT, some funding has already been allocated for two new Hudson tunnels (right after 9/11, IIRC) to equalize the Hudson crossings with the East River and reduce the bottleneck of Amtrak and NJ Transit trains. I can't even conceive of funding two MORE Hudson train tunnels.
HOWEVER ... what about a bellmouth once the two new tunnels land, branching downtown before entering the Penn tracks? (Are they N or S of the existing ones?) This maxes out usage of the new infrastructure, gets you a one-seat NJT ride AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, it frees up slots at Penn!
From J. Lee previous post: a line like that would either travel down 11th or 12th Ave. and then West Street, Washington Street or Greenwich St. to the WTC area -- though if it went down 12th Ave. and West St., odds are it would be elevated because of the high water table so close to the Hudson.
Damn, I just keep seeing that High Line ... but the neighbors will never go for it. And you'd still have to do it underground from 14th to WTC, so the single mile (34th to 14th) of existing viaduct isn't worth it.
Or would ALL of the new tunnel throughput be taken up with current usage? Hard to imagine that.
Now, if we can get NJT downtown this way *AND* get the LIRR downtown via Atlantic or a new two-level tunnel ... damn!
Push our legislators hard to get those new tubes!
One proposal I have read recommends that the new trans-Hudson tubes straddle the existing ones into Penn Station. The first tube constructed will be south of the existing pair; this will allow the current inbound tube to be taken out of service and overhauled. Once that has been completed, it will become the outbound tube (the new one will remain as the inbound tube) and the existing outbound tube will be taken out of service and overhauled. While that is being done, the second new tube will be constructed north of the existing tubes. This second new tube, and the newly-overhauled former outbound tube, will then connect to a new set of tunnels to Grand Central.
Like most of the other proposals, it's probably pie in the sky, but we can dream :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
and frankly, we need all four for PENN
and frankly, we need all four for PENN
It's not an either-or. It's a both. The new tubes would connect to Penn AND, later on, to a GCT connector.
It's not an either-or. It's a both. The new tubes would connect to Penn AND, later on, to a GCT connector.
Yes and no. The end result, once all four tunnels were in service, would be two to Penn and two to GCT. There wouldn't be the ability to select which tube and terminal at random. I'm not at all sure that even the present outbound tube would be switchable after everything is complete; that would be the only one where it might be possible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes and no. The end result, once all four tunnels were in service, would be two to Penn and two to GCT. There wouldn't be the ability to select which tube and terminal at random.
Aaaacckkkk! Why on earth not? Is there something in the alignments and switching that would prevent this? Why would you go to the trouble of building 2 new Hudson tubes and NOT use them to relieve the crush at Penn *as well as* connecting to GCT?
Plus, a GCT connector is not as far along in funding as the 2 new tubes. Gotta think that the tubes would open well before a connector, therefore would have to be used for Penn.
What plan did you read?
This proposal dates back at least five years. The alignment issue is simply one of capacity under the Hudson... you've got to go between the Lincoln Tunnel and the existing tubes on the north and between the existing tubes and the Holland Tunnel on the south. There really isn't a lot of room there. The proposal originated, IIRC, as a way to enable the existing tunnels to be shut down (one at a time) for reconstruction; a side benefit would be creating a connection that could be used as part of a GCT access scheme.
If Penn Station had two levels of tracks, it might be possible to construct the new tunnels in a way to permit both stations to be served. Since it doesn't, there would be the nightmare - already severe at Penn - of switching across even more tracks at grade when entering and exiting the station, and particularly for the tracks to GCT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
capacity under the Hudson... you've got to go between the Lincoln Tunnel and the existing tubes on the north and between the existing tubes and the Holland Tunnel on the south.
Whaaaaa ??? The Holland Tunnel is 2 MILES further down, by Canal Street! On the north the Lincoln Tunnel is obviously a barrier.
. The proposal originated, IIRC, as a way to enable the existing tunnels to be shut down (one at a time) for reconstruction
This I believe. And with recent funding AND the press this summer about the frighteningly inadequate emergency escape routes from the old tunnels, I think it may happen.
[without two levels at Penn] there would be the nightmare ... of switching across even more tracks at grade when entering and exiting the station, and particularly for the tracks to GCT.
There are Penn expansion studies around, but I don't remember if they add a second level. But regardless, these are once-in-a-century tunnels. They must be thought through and built for maximum future flexibility. Though it'll take 50 years before LIRR runs to GCT, at least 63rd Street was built that way -- AND they built the bellmouth for the Queens super-express as well.
Design question: Would you want the new GCT tunnels to let trains stop at Penn too, or make it either/or? You avoid grade-level switching if you do the bellmouths to GCT tunnel (and my theoretical downtown tunnels) before the Penn interlocking, but add cost. Cheaper and simpler and more flexible to run the tunnels into Penn and THEN switch up to GCT east of Penn, but uglier entry to Penn switching. (My theoretical downtown tunnels gotta turn south as soon as they land, to run down 10th or 11th Avenue.)
I can only hope the PA + Amtrak + MTA (LIRR, Metro North) figure this stuff out. With recent RPA studies, there's at least more joint discussion than in a few generations. I hope whatever new Hudson tunnels are built don't preclude vastly greater flexibility for the *22nd* century.
This second new tube, and the newly-overhauled former outbound tube, will then connect to a new set of tunnels to Grand Central.
Hmmmmm. OK, so then I'll modify my plan. The southernmost new tube should connect to Penn, AND have a downtown bellmouth. When the former inbound (southern) old tube is rehabbed to be an outbound, it too gets a bellmouth from downtown.
When all 4 are built or rehabbed, you have (numbering in a northerly direction) 1 and 3 going inbound (new southernmost + old outbound), and 2 and 4 outbound (old inbound + new northernmost). 1 and 2 connect to downtown, 3 and 4 also connect to GCT, eventually.
This gives amazing flexibility. If something happened at Penn, trains could be rerouted either to GCT or downtown depending where they're coming from. (IF you can also turn westbound trains from under the East River north to GCT, anyway.) Opens up slots at Penn. Allows far greater flexiblity. Allows regional routing. I'm kvelling ....
Where'd you read this proposal?
In one of the newspapers - New York Times, perhaps - a few years ago. I'm running on memory now. There wasn't any suggestion of anything going downtown as I recall. That would be rather difficult anyway since the additional bellmouths would have to be under the river; doing it for the new tunnel wouldn't be too bad, but modifying the existing one (and providing for a crossunder of the new one) would be an issue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Greetings. Many of you have been to my NYC railroad website, www.trainweb.org/nyrail, so I'm letting you all know that it has moved to www.nyrail.org. I recently switched my web host from the good folks at trainweb.org to one that I now pay for. The new site is faster, and has a new message board that you can use as well. I have frequent updates, so check back often.
-Dan
Webmaster,
www.nyrail.org
hey congrats on the new domain name.
I was able to find some Chicago L runs on the Train-Sim website, but does anyone know of any go-old New York City Subway routes? Is anyone creating any?
a Brighton line is in development I believe and also a culver shuttle
And others. Check this page:
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/mstsdownloads.htm
The home page is at:
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/main.html
Alan Glick
Those don't look too good, except the 142, but that's only the exterior. The cabs are the same as the series 2000. And the R142 and redbird need a lot of file renaming. I can't wait for the Culver shuttle though. That one seems promising.
Here's a picture taken today showing the progress of the new Airtrain terminal construction in Jamaica next to the LIRR station.
Wow. I haven't been there since last summer.
That's a real Change at Jamaica :-)
I also took a bunch of pictures of the LIRR Jamaica station platforms - there's a lot of demolition going on - removing the old canopies, etc. Unfortuately something went wrong with my digital camera and they all came out looking like this!
Fortunately, my camera seems to be OK, now.
The picture gives a good view of the renovation. Nice job.
Wow they got a lot done already. I was there not too long ago, and it wasn't that far along. When did they start, and when are the scheduled to finih?
The started in '98, and the Howard Beach leg will open for service this coming winter (meaning Nov or December). The Jamaica leg will open Spring of '03.
Thank you, but I also meant the general redoing of Jamaica. I noticed in the picture that what seems like a large part of the canapies have been ripped up.
That will be finished in '05.
Wow, far off yet, but at least they are finally doing it.
You don't need the whole rehab to use AirTrain; but the rehab will make the whole station complex a lot more passenger-friendly. You'll have a first class rail terminal with integrated airline rail shuttle and subway service. Pretty damn good.
Unfortuately something went wrong with my digital camera and they all came out looking like this!
I think your camera is okay, it looks like it had trouble focusing and coming up with a color balance through your train window. You might try moving it closer to the window next time. I've had the same issues with automatic 35mm cameras too. Especially if the windo is at an angle to your lens.
Cool pictures though! I haven't been by there since they started with the steel.
JR
I think your camera is okay, it looks like it had trouble focusing and coming up with a color balance through your train window.
That's just it - I was on the platform, not on the train! Just before this problem started, I accidentally took a picture looking right at the setting Sun. Must have fouled up all the internal settings for a while. After I turned it off for several minutes, everything was back to normal.
That's just it - I was on the platform, not on the train!
Wow! That's really strange. The reason I thought you were shooting through a window is that there looks like a reflection in the upper right! The window looking thing above the right column on the next island over - what the heck is that? Is that some kind of pixel burn from your previous shot?
I accidentally took a picture looking right at the setting Sun. Must have fouled up all the internal settings for a while.
Yeah, it looks a little too bright for direct sun shots. Glad to hear the camera is back to normal.
JR
Feh. All that money on this fancy Disney monorail, when a nice flying junction at the Howard Beach IND could have been constructed with a ROW or elevated two track structure.
You could have had sign readings displaying:
A 8th Avenue Express
Fulton Express
JFK International Airport
Personally, I favored using the old LIRR Rockaway Beach line ROW for a direct connection to both Penn Station and Flatbush Ave.
But at least they have built Something - and within a reasonable time, too.
Sorry in my opinion the new JFK Air Train line to Jamaica Station is going to be a huge flop. First of all here's why
1-Not a one seat ride
2-As a former resident of Long Island and a daily LIRR passenger for 17 years who would take a taxi to a LIRR station,train to Jamaica and switch to the Air Train when one can take a cab right from your home direct to JFK and its still cheaper than a taxi/LIRR/Air Train and i have no idea what the Air Train fare us going to be.
3-A person who works at JFK and most workers there are not 9 to 5 workers will take an Air Train to Jamaica and have to wait up to an hour for an off peak train when they can be home by the time the next train arrives at Jamica by driving
ie-You live on the Ronkonkoma Branch which has hourly service. You get off at 11:30PM and get to Jamaica say by 12:00 AM by Air Train and still have to wait until 12:35AM or 12:40AM for a train from Penn which leaves approx 15 past the hour. One can drive from JFK to Ronkonkoma by the time the next train first reaches Jamaica.
The JFK Air Train is going to be the biggest flop since the Edsel.
Thank You
So I take it you won't be riding?
OK. Better chance for me to get a seat when I ride. I'll leave the taxis to you!
Hey, y'know I too wish it had been different. But kinda like the designs for many other things, lame but built trumps perfect armchair. I believe it will be used. So let's all be patient til we get some numbers after six months.
There is no such thing as a one-seat ride from "anywhere" to JFK Airport. The airport is so vast that any conventional transit link (subway or commuter rail)would require one central station and then transfer to some type of intra-airport link to the individual airline terminals and other facilities (e.g., Federal Ciricle). The Jamaica-JFK Air Train effectively moves the airport central station to Jamaica where travelers have a choice of LIRR, E/J subways, and a dozen local bus routes (TA & Green) right at the doorstep. Passengers will be able to check into their flights right at the Air Train terminal, eliminating long lines at JFK itself.
Remember too that a big market on the AirTrain will be many of the 40,000(?) people who work at the airport itself.
Another byproduct of this project will be vastly improved and state of the art Jamaica Station for all travelers - airport bound or not.
If you prefer taking a taxi, that's fine - but don't dump on this project that has the potential to serve many people who now have limited options getting to JFK if they don't drive or take a taxi/car service. Right now one must take the Q10, Q3, B15, or N91 from a NYCTA or LIRR station.
The A can read that right now. You don't need a flying junction - just a convenient way to board the railcar hich will take you right to the gate.
E and J trains can carry that sign now, too. Jamaica Center - JFK AirTrain
You can cry because the fresh milk is in the carton in the fridg. I'll drink and enjoy it.
Wow! Thanks for the photos. I can't wait untill it is full operational!
MATT-2AV
Thanks for posting that. A wondrous sight indeed.
I was perusing the MTA website and check on the LIRR capital projects. Your photo of the Airtrain Terminal is half right. The Airtrain guideway on the right is the Airtrain terminal, however that 7 story building going up next to it has nothing to do with Airtrain. That is the new LIRR (JCC) or Jamaica Control Center. I was misled too, until I read this on the website.
Bill "Newkirk"
You mean this part?
"The $225 million Jamaica Station effort will renovate the station in conjunction with the Port Authority’s light rail system to JFK and will build a new central train control building. The control tower will enable the railroad to eventually replace and centrally control the activities of 15 remote signal towers between the Harold Interlocking and Montauk."
That's it Bob, that's the seven story building in your photo descibed in the website. At first I thought the tall structure was for the JFK Light Rail Line, but I then figured their headquarters must be based near JFK Airport.
Bill "Newkirk"
In that case I'd better start getting more pictures of the still-existing LIRR towers before they tear them all down!.
Thank God. A steel-skeleton, boring box is an inappropriate and ugly design choice for a transit terminal of the 21st Century. I hope the architects' vision with regard to the terminal provides more fanciful result.
They've been doing some construction in the Amtrak area of the lower level of Penn Station - putting in more modern walls and ceilings.
I spotted this sign directing passengers to the 7th Ave. Subway which was uncovered when part of the old ceiling was being replaced. It doesn't look like an original 1910 sign, but it probably has been covered for quite a long time.
It is probably from when the current station was built in the 1960's.
Allan is right.
That sign is about 35 or so years old.
Based on the lettering style, I'd agree 100%
Is that under the old Concourse? It looks like glass block in the ceiling, which was what the old concourse floor was.
Does the MTA print maps of large station complexes like Times Square? If not, has anyone made one and posted it online? The last time I was in NY (August 2001) I saw a large poster map of the 59th Street-Columbus Circle station in the mezzanine, and I was just wondering if there were any smaller maps available at these large stations.
David
I've not been in NY in some time, but do remember those huge, glorious station maps. I recall asking some TA person (how, who, when, I don't remember) if one could buy a copy (maybe I phoned the TA. I don't remember). Anyway, I got the huffiest response, a 'how dare you ask such a thing'.
These kind of maps would be collectable, highly saleable, the kind of thing you want to frame and put over your sofa, or use as wallpaper. My usual station was 86th in Bay Ridge, and the map there was wondrously detailed, letting you actually see how what was underground related to what was upstairs. If Holy Pictures can give Catholics the religious equivalent of a woody, then these maps are the railfan map-lover's equivalent.
That reminds me of the time I was in a Culver (F) R46 in Brooklyn and some guy smashed the glass over the subway map.
Since he was in the middle of the train, the conductor heard and with his 2X4 kept hitting the wall of the car to get the guy to quit.
He ignored the conductor and took out the map after removing the rubber type of border, but he got his map.
It was lucky for him that there was no cop around. This took place around 7-8PM. I sort of envied the guy for having the guts to actually take one of those maps which I alway wanted. I never had enough courage to steal anything more than some of the ads over the lights.
And I should not have done that either, but I did.
I can one up that one. On the very last day of the Myrtle in '69 people were taking parts of the train as souvenirs as it was also the last day of the "Q" cars, the oldest cars in the system at the time and the last wooden cars in North America. Some people were taking the leather straps. I ended up taking one of the wicker seats which I took onto the "J" train to Jamaica, the LIRR to Hempstead, and the bus (an old Mack on the Hempstead Bus Comp) home to East Meadow. I still have the seat.
I still have the seat.
Tell us where you get incarcerated ... we'll come visit!
When they build the N extension to La Guardia, do you think they could design it to serve Rikers, too?
Just kidding.
I've taken a lot of GO posters from the stations and cars.... ONLY after they have expired! Hey, they make good wallpaper. You should see my dorm room wall. I have a whole collage of service advisery posters... :)
Check out message #310824.
I just found out about this today and was pleasantly surprised.
Alan Glick
alan - not sure how to check by message number. help, please.
thanks
Just change the number at the end of the address:
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=310824
thanks
I don't think neighborhood maps re the same as subway station maps. I remember a Union Square station map that actually told you how all the corridors fit together. It was much more detailed than the maps you're referring to.
Wow. When did you see that? I wonder if other complex stations have such maps. I'd like to see these on-line or in a format that could be handed out at the stations.
Alan Glick
Yes, we are speaking of the neighborhood maps, in the stations, which are/were different from what you see online. These were to an immensely large scale, showing all the passages and stairs in the subway, as well as the configuration on the street level. I forget the exact size, but maybe 4 by 8 feet? Huge.
I wonder how they made them. I suspect some computer program, connected to a plotter.
As for the online maps, the city should publish them in an official atlas, larger, more detailed, more glorious than the Hagstrom -- together with the other boroughs, of course.
About 10 years ago, it was posted somewhere in the Union Square station. It's long gone. I vaguely remember a few other detailed station maps, but maybe I'm making that up. I am certain about the Union Square station map being there, just not how long ago. I'd like to see it again too.
There is a 3-D style map of the Fulton/Nassau-Broadway complex on the uptown platform of the 4/5 @ Fulton Street.
There is a 3-D style map of the Fulton/Nassau-Broadway complex on the uptown platform of the 4/5 @ Fulton Street.
I actually find their 3-D maps FAR more confusing than the 2-D ones, dunno why. Both the Penn Station and Grand Central 3-D maps are almost useless to me ... maybe 'cause they try to use the same one for every location, instead of distorting the "You Are Here" part so you can orient yourself better.
And while I'm griping ... anyone ever notice that the "You Are Here" stickers on the large subway maps on the platform invariably cover up every adjacent stop? Grrrrrr ....
On the downtown platform, too.
Columbus Circle has similar maps, as does (according to a post to nyc.transit) one or both of the Penn Station stations.
They're interesting to study but I do find them a bit difficult to use to quickly figure out where I want to go. Apparently the TA agrees; no new maps of this sort have been posted in many years.
I would love to see one of Times Square (before and after).
A few days ago I downloaded the R142, R142a, and R143 subway cars for BVE. How do I put these cars into other BVE routes? I would like to have an R142 on the Flushing line, for example. I made a copy of the Flushing line route file and I am going to change only the train information so I will have a choice of an R36 or an R142 for the Flushing line route. Does anyone know how to do this (what values to put in)? Thanks in advance for your help
David
Piece of cake ... you need to edit the ROUTE file (either a *.RW or a *.CSV file depending on which version of BVE it's for) ...
In an *.RW file, look for a line that says:
[train]
file=r36
and change it to the train you want:
[train]
file=r142
In a *.CSV file, it will be:
Train.Folder
Fortunately for your sanity, should be right near the top of the file. It can be edited with any text editor ... easy, painless, no talent or handles required. :)
I did this before, but it did not change the acceleration rate/top speed and the sounds of the train were not there. How do I get those?
David
Is it a RW or a CSV file for the ROUTE file? That should all follow the TRAIN data file and should work as I suggested. Which route are you playing with? It might be some particular author of the route funniness there ... there's some routes out there that are SO whack that they require major surgery, especially those that came from the site that has abandoned BVE and is now MSTS only ...
The route file is an RW. I want to put the R142 in the #7 Line route. I did already change a train in the F train route by copying all the train information from the other rw file and pasting it into the F line rw file. I can't do that now because there are no routes that have the R142 in it. The Franklin Shuttle uses the R143 but it has a CSV file so I can't copy and paste it... BTW, whatever happened to all the BVE routes that were on that site, are they available some where else? I downloaded some of them before, but the only routes I could get working were the F and the R. I was going to try the others again.
David
Kev, maybe you could help me out with those routes from that evil site, i cant get them into proper folders or something help! I really want them to work
Did you ever get the fixed file I sent or did msn lose that on ya also? Drop me an email - I'll be in the office tomorrow ... once those files get edited up a bit, they do work. Given that you're stuck in the MSTS planet, these particular routes are pretty lame but well ... I'll tell you in the next response about your MSTS message ...
Na mon me nah recieve them from you, unless you are offering me free herbal weight loss medication then no i didnt get it. will drop you an email. Thanks
Just replied ... hopefully you'll get THAT ... but we gotta get you a *real* ISP, MSN is afraid you might email folks outside the perimeter of the Redmond Death Star shields. :)
HELP!!!! IM trappped....FOAMING....HYPNOTIZED.....FOAMING IN ISP AND RALROADING the Microsoft way!! HELL!
Thanks for that info... I just finished driving an R143 down the (G), and it was awesome!!!. One thing though, when I hit around 20 mph the acceleration fluctuates, as though the train is losing power intermittently or something. What could be causing that?
My dad, a frequent AE rider, has been asking me to post the following questions/statements:
He thinks that the Acela Express time of 2:45 is far too slow, and they should cut at least 30 minutes off the trip. Here is what he thinks:
*Metropark and New Carrollton should be eliminated for the AE
*BWI should be eliminated if they aren't rebuilding it
*Trains should go faster between Wilmington and Baltimore
*Curves should be eliminated and the speeds should be raised on straight sections
I, personally think that New Carrollton and Metropark should be a weekend only stop for the AE and that peak trains should skip BWI. If these stations must be left in, make BWI and Metropark island platforms so the trains don't have to constantly switch tracks. Also don't have all doors open at Metropark since they can't close properly there. A SEPTA platform for Churchman's Crossing should be installed for the westernmost track, so Amtrak isn't restricted to 2 tracks during rush hours while SEPTA single tracks the R2 on the easternmonst track. The R2 could cross over just before Newark.
Does anyone else have any other suggestions or know what Amtrak is planning?
The purpose of the AE is to provide a fast trip, mostly for businessmen. Thus, serving major stops like DC and NY and skipping Metropark and New Carrollton would make sense to me unless there's enough ridership at those stops on the AE.
*Curves should be eliminated and the speeds should be raised on straight sections
I don't understand how you can eliminate curves without buying more ROW and laying new track.
Most of those businessmen live in suburban communities. Metropark and New Carrolton are the primary suburban stops. Why would a businessmen commute to NYC just to be able to commute to DC?
Acela is capable of a 2 hour 30 minute schedule from Washington to New York with scheduled stops. It is capable of a 2 hour schedule, non-stop. The problem isn't even the curves, really - the train can hit most curves 20-30 mph faster than a conventional train.
The problems:
-Scheduling and signalling have to improve
-Amtrak needs its own dediccated track throughout. It has to share tracks with NJ Transit getting into New York, and , if I recall correctly, it shares tracks with MARC trains on the Washington side.
-The top speed should be raised from 135 to 140 or higher and should be allowed on longer stretches of track.
Also, there are times when a conventional train will leave just ahead of an Acela. Unless some "wrong-railing" is arranged, Acela will get stuck behind a slower train.
Amtrak has control over the MARC trains.
Yes, but they still share tracks. If there were a full-length four track ROW then MARC could not potentially delay an Acela Express.
The ROW from DC to Balto needs to be fully four track (another less B-2) In turn, in Atk's defense, I suspect they are still having too many failures to try running them harder. When (IF?) the equipment 'breaks in' sufficiently, I hope for much faster service. Heck they had a 2:30 Metroliner 25 years ago. If they get serious they should be able to better that with all the bells and whistles on these trains. Maybe they'll even (gasp) tighten up the dwell at Penn for the Boston trains. And in my dreams serious coffee(that's espresso) and upscale munchies to match the fares.
They can't. Penn is too narrow to have everyone down there at once.
If Amtrak can get a second tunnel across the Hudson, that will help clear a lot of traffic out of Penn that much faster. In the closer term, when catenary replacement is completed in Connecticut, Amtrak dwell times will drop because they won't have to wait as long for departure slots on fewer tracks.
I was referring to the actual platforms. Once the train arrives, it isn't safe to have the boarding passengers already downstairs waiting to get on. That is why the layover is 15 minutes. Since they do have to change crews, the ideal schedule would have a 5 minute layover.
Thanks for the clarification.
Amtrak has said it can reduce the layover time given faster track clearance. I assume that will include a refined boarding procedure as well.
Note that the Amtrak platforms at 30th Street station aren't that much better - and layovers are shorter.
How does catenary replacement in CT affect dwell times in Penn?
Because one of the mainline tracks is out of service, Metro-North and Amtrak trains must share the remaining track (or two tracks, if they do a 3+1 during the day). This means that a train at Penn headed northbound may be held because a Metro-North train previously departed from Grand Central will be occupying the block - and vice versa. Remember that the GCT and Penn tracks merge at New Rochelle (or roughly thereabouts) It also means Amtrak trains cannot depart as frequently, lest they too, be interfering with one another owing two one track aout of two northbound be out of service.
I should clarify a bit: Congestion on the CT tracks "feeds back" into NY state territory.
It's like when an accident on the expressway adversely affects traffic five miles back. Except this is a chronic situation.
I thought the trouble with the 2:30 Metroliner back then was that it was always late, so they had to modify the schedule to fit the facts.
yes, and if one believes the flacks, the tracks are better now, the signals are better now and the trainsets are too. So with all these improvements, ... bridge to Brooklyn?
I, personally think that New Carrollton and Metropark should be a weekend only stop for the AE
No they should not, read my explanation for Mr. 4th Ave.
AE and that peak trains should skip BWI
All AE trains should skip BWI. It barely connects to the Airport just like Howard Beach. Why would anyone fly in to an AE connection when they could just fly direct, probably for less?
A SEPTA platform for Churchman's Crossing should be installed for the westernmost track, so Amtrak isn't restricted to 2 tracks during rush hours while SEPTA single tracks the R2 on the easternmonst track.
First, Amtrak trains only need two mainline tracks outside the NY-Philly corridor.
The R2 could cross over just before Newark.
Crossing the trains at DAVIS would be a disaster. DAVIS would tie up all 4 hi-speed mainline tracks. Currently, trains cross at the lo-speed LANDLITH interlocking at MP 25.6. They they get onto the 3rd track lo-level platform at Wilmington at WINE (MP26.6) and thus freeing the express tracks. The SEPTA trains then stay on the siding until MP 28.2 where they cross to the #2 track at YARD. At REGAN (MP29.7) SEPTA trains can once again get off the mainline tracks and back onto the wooden tied #1 track that they then use to serve the two Dek stations. Did you also notice that they have a new #0 track starting just after the CC station that then gets then off the lo-speed #1 track? Your way would have SEPTA trains no only tie up the hi-speed Amtrak track from MP 25 to MP 38, they would have to make TWO station stops on said track AND cross over other hi-speed track at DAVIS. Study some track diagrams before you make your suggestions.
One thing I, as well as other subtalkers may be hoping for on October 27, 2004 is for a recreation of the opening of the subway. At least a half an hour before the Mayor drove the first subway out of the original City Hall station at 2:35 PM, factories blew their whistles in honor of the opening. Today, however...all the factories are closed. So, my question to subtalkers is how about having church bells ring throughout the city from 2 to 2:35 PM, if indeed Mayor Bloomberg and MTA administration decide to re-create the opening to the moment? Perhaps those church bells that are computerized can chime out a tune like "I've Been Working on the Railroad." :-) -Nick
One thing I, as well as other subtalkers may be hoping for on October 27, 2004 is for a recreation of the opening of the subway. At least a half an hour before the Mayor drove the first subway out of the original City Hall station at 2:35 PM
What I'd like to see is a dignitaries and fans trip from City Hall up the east side, onto the one remaining connected Shuttle track, then onto the west side line up to 137th -- the original subway route.
Don't have Peter's track book here, but IIRC, the switches no longer exist to get from the southernmost shuttle track (connected to Lex) to the northernmost (connected to Broadway). Correct?
You're right, but that shouldn't be. Looking at the map now, the arrangement is such that tracks 1 and 3 can only go to the Lex, while track 4 can only go to 7th ave. Forget through running; this arrangement is incredibly stupid for a lot of reasons. Getting trains to and from the yard is one of them:
What if, last Friday evening, the track 4 shuttle got a bad motor. To get it to the yard they'd have to run a three car train (against TA rules to run anything less than 4 cars on the mainline) all the way to 148st, reverse, and then all the way down to Livonia. They would have to do this at night because a protection train would have to be called up, and the exit near track 4 at Times Sq would have to be closed since the drawbridge over track 4 would need to be pulled.
The replacement train would have to wait until Monday morning to get back, thanks to the fact that the northbound 1/2 tube is closed. Or, they'd have to run the replacement up the Lex to Jackson Av middle, then back down 7th ave to the pocket south of Times Square, then across to the local to just north of the switch, then finally back in to it's track (again with the drawbridge up). It would have had to do all this with a protection train following it around as well.
What if, last Friday evening, the track 4 shuttle got a bad motor.
Except, since there are three shuttle tracks, mightn't they just leave it there until the optimal time for doing the (very complicated) move you described?
The old southbound express track (track 2) is the one that's covered over. Very odd that they built a double-width merge between track 3 (old northbound express) and track 1 (old southbound local). But, I wonder if there's a space for a scissors switch between tracks 3 and 4, somewhere west of GC and east of TS?
Even if there were, though, I don't see the switches in place for my hypothetical journey. You'd probably have to wrong-rail from south of Union Square if not all the way from City Hall. And to do THAT, you'd have to shut down the IRT during a business day. Not gonna happen.
Oh well.
Can they run a three car train on the mainline in an emergency?
#3 West End Jeff
They can run a three car train any time they feel like it. And, it doesn't need a protection train following it around. Transit rules prohibit running single cars anywhere except inside a barn. Two cars trains are not a problem (with one exception) - witness the Revenue Collector. The exception is someone 'gapping' the train, ie no shoes on the third rail. I've witnessed this twice, both times with 4 or more cars - the first was a 5 car Garbage Train that gapped north of Chambers St on the southbound express (granted only two cars have motors and one car didn't work); the other 5 R142 cars in Westchester Yard on the lead, all motors working.
As for the southbound move, you only need to take the train north of 96 St before switching ends and going south.
(So, my question to subtalkers is how about having church bells ring throughout the city from 2 to 2:35 PM, if indeed Mayor Bloomberg and
MTA administration decide to re-create the opening to the moment?)
All church bells in the City were supposed to ring on New Years Eve at 6:00 p.m., for the first time since WWII, in memory of the disaster. I stepped outside my door are could barely hear a single bell somewhere. It didn't seem to work.
If the City and State aren't broke, and if it is a weekend day, I'd like to see the subway made free for a day with commemorative items given to all comers.
>>If the City and State aren't broke, and if it is a weekend day, I'd like to see the subway made free for a day with commemorative items given to all comers.<<
I am all for the commemorative items, but against the free fare. If anything sell commemorative Metrocards for a 5 cent fare to be used once on that day only. I don't know if the TA will be using tokens by October 2004 or not. Throwing open the gates for free rides will do more than just make commuters happy, but may make them crime victims with more than the usual number of criminals and lowlifes streaming in.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe a one-time only free fare won't be such a bad idea. In the past there has been New Year's Eves where the fare was free. And there has been some weekends in 1994-95 where there has been off peak fares on the turnstiles. So it's not out of the question. Police would probably be out in force that day and it wouldn't be a matter of just letting anybody go in. But stay tuned!
Tokens will still be around by 2004. Maybe after that day they will no longer be used. But that is 2 1/2 years from now. Things can change and surely will
How about a special edition token only available on that day. Ditto for Metrocards.
Special edition tokens and cards will undoubtly be out. I doubt if they'll be available for just 5 cents.
Tokens will still be around by 2004. Maybe after that day they will no longer be used.
I highly doubt it. There will almost certainly be a fare hike between now and then, and I can't imagine the TA would allow hoarding by continuing to use tokens past whatever date the hike takes effect.
Of course, if people buy a lot more tokens just before a fare hike, MTA' potential fare loss is mitigated to some degree by the receipt of a lot of money up front. If this cash is then invested, it earns some of the $ that the TA would have made by enforcing the fare hike on each ride. Some, but not all.
>>> Throwing open the gates for free rides will do more than just make commuters happy, but may make them crime victims with more than the usual number of criminals and lowlifes streaming in. <<<
I think your fear of a crime wave is unwarranted. In Los Angeles we had a fare holiday when the Red Line was extended to North Hollywood, and although the crowds were much greater than usual, up to the point where they had to set up barriers to control the lines at the new terminal, there was no increase in crime. Also after the last MTA strike there was an advertized four day fare holiday on both trains and buses to welcome back riders, and again no crime wave, and only about 10% more riders than with the normal fare.
Tom
Whe the Blue Line first opened, the rides were free, and the Sheriff's Dept. patrolled the trains. Even though the line passes through "gang turf," the message offered was clear - the Blue Line was off-limits for gang activity. Deputies arrested a few gang members for trying to scratch their signs onto the train, but it was peaceful other than that.
if it is a weekend day
It'll be a Wednesday.
Faith is in your heart and soul....the bells are between your ears. CI Peter
The Manny B should be fully open by that day. AirTrain will be operating, and the first Second Av construction contract let out by then. Your ceremony also could be a celebration of our fully restored and revitalized subway - a system that can take you anywhere you want to go.
"Your ceremony also could be a celebration of our fully restored and revitalized subway - a system that can take you anywhere you want to go."
This gives me another idea: If the 2nd avenue subway is actually approved, there have been reports that construction could start in 2004. Perhaps 10/27 would be an appropriate day for the groundbreaking, as we celebrate the past and look ahead to the future! -Nick
If the 2nd avenue subway is actually approved, there have been reports that construction could start in 2004. Perhaps 10/27 would be an appropriate day for the groundbreaking
That's brilliant! Although, groundbreaking for the Stubway is [ahem] a rather less glorious cause than for a City Hall-to-137th Street line. Maybe I shouldn't quibble ....
A ceremony marking the start of construction of the Second Avenue Subway was held on October 27, 1972 (1968-1973: THE TEN-YEAR PROGRAM AT THE HALFWAY MARK, Metropolitan Transportation Authority, page 38; photo shows Sen. Javits, Gov. Rockefeller, US Transportation Sec. Volpe, Mayor Lindsay, and MTA Chairman Ronan). Has anybody here ridden a Second Avenue Subway train lately?
David
None of the dignitaries could make a dent in the asphalt pavement, so they had a construction worker do the honors with a jackhammer.
One thing I, as well as other subtalkers may be hoping for on October 27, 2004 is for a recreation of the opening of the subway. At least a half an hour before the Mayor drove the first subway out of the original City Hall station at 2:35 PM, factories blew their whistles in honor of the opening. Today, however...all the factories are closed. So, my question to subtalkers is how about having church bells ring throughout the city from 2 to 2:35 PM, if indeed Mayor Bloomberg and MTA administration decide to re-create the opening to the moment? Perhaps those church bells that are computerized can chime out a tune like "I've Been Working on the Railroad."
I've got an even better idea. Totally rework the city's economy, starting with municipal bankruptcy and a massive reduction of government's role in peoples' lives, slash taxes to Sunbelt levels, and just maybe the city will be filled once again with factories and their well-paying jobs.
and just maybe the city will be filled once again with factories and their well-paying jobs.
Why should it be? The era of factories in the city is dead. Do you think we should also restructure the city so that farming could make a comeback? What about the clamming industry that once thrived along the bay? Why not go all the way and bring back fur trapping?
Especially fur trapping.
:0)
and just maybe the city will be filled once again with factories and their well-paying jobs.
Why should it be? The era of factories in the city is dead. Do you think we should also restructure the city so that farming could make a comeback? What about the clamming industry that once thrived along the bay? Why not go all the way and bring back fur trapping?
There is no reason why the factory era should be dead. The city offers ample industrial-zoned land, proximity to transportation hubs and marketplaces, and most of all a large labor force eager for work. Demolish some of these obsolete multifloor brick factory buildings you see in Brooklyn and elsewhere, offer the land at reasonable prices along with tax breaks, and you'll see more and more manufacturers putting up modern factories and creating jobs.
Demolish some of these obsolete multifloor brick factory buildings you see in Brooklyn and elsewhere, offer the land at reasonable prices along with tax breaks, and you'll see more and more manufacturers putting up modern factories and creating jobs.
I disagree. Even though those "multifloor brick factory buildings" may not have manufacturing in them, they are increasingly adaptively reused as housing. And to pay the rent, those people have jobs somewhere.
Virtually any new large industrial factory today is built on a "greenfield" that was formerly farm. Look at the Japanese & German automakers' new plants in Kentucky, Alabama, etc. Single story plants are far, far cheaper to build, and you can then pave the acres of land needed for the parking for all the workers.
NYC's future is not manufacturing of the bulk commodity sort. It may be in small, fine, high-value manufacturing done by skilled workers. It could be in distrbution (Brooklyn freight terminal connected to cross-harbor freight tunnel). But within the 5 boros, even if you did assemble enough land for a modern high-volume industrial plant, you'd get the rest of the nabe/boro complaining (justifiably) that you were obliterating almost a square mile for only XXX jobs.
NYC's future is not manufacturing of the bulk commodity sort. It may be in small, fine, high-value manufacturing done by skilled workers. It could be in distrbution (Brooklyn freight terminal connected to cross-harbor freight tunnel). But within the 5 boros, even if you did assemble enough land for a modern high-volume industrial plant, you'd get the rest of the nabe/boro complaining (justifiably) that you were obliterating almost a square mile for only XXX jobs.
I am thinking in terms of small, high-value manufacturing. It indeed is unlikely that a million-square-foot plant would be feasible within the city limits. But manufacturing on a smaller scale is a different matter.
>>> you'll see more and more manufacturers putting up modern factories and creating jobs. <<<
But it will be much too long a commute to bring in the Malaysians with their $3.00 per day wages to fill the new factory jobs. :-)
Tom
Indian breeding trade All the way. YEAH!
LOL!! :-) -Nick
I'd like to see a restored Low-V or High-V be used for revenue service on the shuttle line that day.
Perhaps they could bring out the Museum Lo-Vs, although I understand they need some work. Regardless of what they plan to do, I will be in the city on 10/27/04 one way or another.
"Regardless of what they plan to do, I will be in the city on 10/27/04 one way or another."
If its possible, how great would it be if subtalkers gathered together on this day and enjoyed whatever festivities are being offered. -Nick
Chatham Square is open tonight. If we get enough intrest, we may even do some trivia, a rather fun activity. Please point your browsers to www.subtalklive.com.
Anyone with information if the 143's passed the 30-day test this past week? If so, what is the next step before the MU's are placed in actual service?
Yesterday I rode one of the newly rerouted Staten Island Express Bus Routes and saw many interesting things along the New Jersey Turnpike portion of the route:
1. Secaucus Transfer. From the outside it looks a lot more done than it does from the inside (maybe that's just because of the light). This is also the cheapest way to see it once the NJT fares go up.
2. Northeast Corridor. Strange feeling being on an MTA bus looking at Amtrak and NJT trains speeding alongside.
3. Lots of freight.
4. Newark Airport.
5. SIR North Shore bridge into NJ from the Goethalls. Akin to looking at the Hellgate from the Triboro, except no chance of seeing a train here.
If anyone else wants to do it, here are some maps (PDF format):
SI Bus Map
Service Guide
The above haven't been updated since September but the times and stops on SI are correct.
routes in Manhattan (updated)
Notice announcing the new service patterns (not PDF).
The fare is $3. $1.50 transfer from subway or local bus. Free transfer from another express bus.
I posted this here instead of bustalk because it's more about the view than the bus.
It seems a man took a nap on the marta tracks north of the Arts Center station... the station was closed for 3 hrs after the death.
Hi guys...i need some help...
I haven't really ventured into the ebay market but I may. I was curious what some people have paid in the past for rollsigns. If some MUNI Boeing rollsigns became available, I may want to go after one...but I was curious what they might be worth.
Thanks. Respond via e-mail if you would like to instead of posting here.
I couldn't tell you about MUNI signs, but what I can tell you is a couple of weeks ago, someone paid over $300 for an original R1/9 front route sign & signbox. Back in November, someone else paid over $700 for a side sign/signbox unit from a BMT standard. Note that both of these were in above average condition, but I don't know about you, that's a bit out of my league. Loose rollsigns from various NYCTA equipment typically sell in the $30 - $50 range. I have a set of front route and destination signs in their boxes from R27/30 equipment (original, not the color replacements) on top of the refrigerator in my garage. I don't plan on selling them anytime soon, but I often wonder how much they would bring. Good luck in your endeavors.
The great thing about e-bay is that you are selling to anyone in the world with a Internet connection vs selling in a room filled with subway researchers/historians (foamers). In addition you have three and up to 10 days to make up your mind if you have to have it.
Since NYC subway researchers/historians are found all over the world and most have a professional career, we long for things that brings back the good old days.
So you have to take a chance and think of how much you are willing to spend for an item as a buyer or as a seller guess how much you think it is worth. Run the item on e-bay and watch to see what happens.
One day a 1960's map can go for $50 or more, the next week the same map go for only $10.00.
Good luck
Phil Hom
(e-bay jayst370@aol.com)
To add to what Phil said, you have to remember that since there is no place you could go and buy the item for a fixed price that the "value" of the item is undefined. It's value is what you're willing to pay for it. The value to the highest bidder is something else. You need to decide what it's worth TO YOU since Ebay bidders don't tend to follow any patterns.
david makes a good point which i would like to add to. just because an item sold for a certain price doesn't mean that that is its worth. its worth is what the next higher bidder wishes to pay. when i say next highest bidder, i don't necessarily mean from that specific auction.
It would appear that the LIRR is using (beyond repair) M-1s for slime train duty. Thursday, at Hillside it appeared that they had two consists, each a single M-1 sandwiched betwen two MP-15s. I didn't get the consist numbers but will try on Monday PM.
Dude, What are slime trains?!?!?
Slime trains are special consists which deposit a traction/cleaning agent upon the rails to prevent loss of traction when matter like leaves make the rails slick. Right TD???
This time of year it might also be a de-icer.
Gel spreaders. SEPTA also has such a train. In winter weather, some slimy substance is spread onto the rail heads to improve traction.
SEPTA actually has two gel trains; one for the ex-Reading and one for the ex-Pennsy lines.
SEPTA is using FA-1 #615 on the Reading side and F-7 #622 on the Pennsy side. The F-7 has been repainted since the photo was taken inside the Frazer shop on July 21.
I thought the gel trains were mainly used in fall due to the leaf problem. Is this something that's used in the winter also?
What is the slime made of?
The latest issue of the NYD ERA Bulletin reports that these
are ex 9401 and 9591, now E401 and E591. All of the P-wire
braking package has been removed and replaced with standard
train-air control valves (ABDX?) and the couplers have been
changed out to [what the TA would call] MCB.
Thanks for the info; I have #9402 in an Odd Couple with #9083.
Could someone try and find out who #9592 has shacked up with?
thanks
wayne
I'm surprised they didn't retain a couple of old diesel coaches for such use. Maybe that's why 2907 & 9 are still on the property.
Throughout the years, there have been a number of various old diesel coaches used for these purposes.
Back around 1970 or so, they had a couple old P-54D "ping-pongs" that were painted silver and blue with yellow end striping. There was also one of the former Boston & Maine bar cars (I believe it was 7538??) converted to the gel spreader. It sat for a few years on the south side of the Morris Park engine servicing area near the coal tower.
Actually, it wasn't a couple of P54Ds, but an arch roof MP54 4791, I believe. It rusted out so bad that the Riverhead/39 group didn't want it and was scrapped about 10 years ago. The LIRR had 2 B&M cars for the purpose. I don't know what they do now. Interesting, but not surprising, that 2 LIRR power packs are being used as such on SEPTA, but the LIRR didn't have the initiative for themselves.
Thanks for the correction on that car number....yes, it WAS an MP54 control cab. Just checked my slides to see.
I haven't been on the board for a while so I just have to know. Did it make it past the 30 day testing?
My guess is that not only did it, but with flying colors. I'm sure we'll have the real answer soon ... but I do expect we'll be quite pleased with the result and the eastern division will FINALLY get first dibs on good new equipment and fast ...
>>I haven't been on the board for a while so I just have to know. Did it make it past the 30 day testing?<<
The R-143s did pass the 30-day test and are getting up grades from what was found on the 30 day test period.
There is a second set of R-143s (#8109-8116) being used for training of crews to familiarize them with the new boys on the block. Hopefully, the first R-143 set will get a well deserved cleaning,
Bill "Newkirk"
Hooray! Looks like relief for the B-division will be coming sooner rather than later. And the Eastern Division will be getting brand-new cars instead of hand-me-downs.
>>Hooray! Looks like relief for the B-division will be coming sooner rather than later.<<
Yes and the added cars couldn't have come at a better time. The additional 212 cars may bring some needed changes and relief.
It also seems that Kawasaki has learned from working out the bugs on the R-142As that made the R-143 a success.
Bill "Newkirk"
From what i've heard CP brought a few more into town over the weekend, which might already be unloaded and on the property. i suspect new cars will be coming in on a regular basis until all the cars are in.
Hmmmm, 212 cars. That comes out to 26 and a half trains. Think the TA could get Kawasaki to squeeze out four more cars for an even 27 eight-car trains? I'm just saying that it might be beneficial to the TA to have as many full-trains as possible.
But it's good to know that relief is on the way.
Remember, some of those 212 cars will be in the shop for inspection, repair, or SMS at any given time. They're not all going to be available for service at once, at least not often enough that they can all be counted as being available.
David
Well, let's say that 25 or 24 trains go into service... this is going on the L line and the L currently uses 21 trains during rush hour. Say there's an extra 3 trains. Those were possibly going to the M line as said on this board. This would only replace the L fleet and put the L fleet somewhere else, right?
And the Eastern Division will be getting brand-new cars instead of hand-me-downs.
When it comes time for the 160s, the eastern division, will again be getting new cars, right? As well as which ever line will be using the CI R40s.
I think by the time we see R160's, the R40 slants (at least the pre-GOH'ed non A/C units) will be scrapped.
Hey Juice I know you can answer this question along with other subtalkers, what's the differnce between the r142&142a suspension? I've already noticed a while ago, the r142's air spring setup not to mention the trucks are quite bulky. But what type is the Kawasaki using? Is it standard or air? I've never heard anything when I ride a 142a, unlike the 142 you can hear the noise it's making every time the car rocks a little. You hear no such sound on the 142a, I've directed this question towards you because you seem to spend alot more time underneath them. Also if any other subtalkers can answer the questions, it's just as fine. I'm not trying to discriminate!
I have not personally inspected the suspension of the Kawasaki R142A but I do know it is of the conventional truck design. It is solid and may have journal bearings that ride up and down like all other TA trucks. It does lack the air spring/torsion bar components of the Bombardier..........it will last as long of all the other TA trucks in service and will not engage the massive failure rate of brake shoes and Tread Brake Units that the Bombardier has with its floating axles. Just my opinion: I expect ALL the R142 trucks to be extensively modified or completely replaced within the next five years. One thing to note when the cars go by...the third rail shoe appears to be very small. Just because it's small doesn't mean it cannot perform. CI Peter
Let me add an interesting point before I call it quits for the night. Upon the Adtranz truck is a fixed metal pin. It is inside of a metal rectangle attached to the axle assembly. What i point out to my fellow CI's is that this device is a 'keeper' to contain an awful lot of movement. IF the R142 had floating brake units upon the axles like disc brakes on a car....you wouldn't see so many of my postings. CI Peter
What is the relationship between these devices and the shock absorbers/yaw dampers I saw installed on trucks at the 207 St shops?
Are these parts inter-related in the assembly?
For secondary support between the carbody and trucks, the Kawasaki R-142As rely on side dampers, as opposed to the air bag (w/ coil spring?) of the R-142. The main suspension would be heavy rubber (and usually quite rigid) chevrons inside the truck frames.
Side damper configuration is very common industry wide. Similar configurations on MNRR and LIRR MUs, rapid transit cars in Boston and elsewhere. Can't recall off top of my head, but this might be the first such application on the NYC Subway.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Anyone have this game, or specifically, the instruction manual for it that I could have a copy of? I just got a PSX as a hand-me-up from my brother, but not all of his old games have the instructions included.
-Hank
if i had it my way you would have all of the lines in all of the american cities !!
man would that be a lot of fun !!
woooooooo.................lol!!
Now, how much data would that take and what is the capacity of a play station disc? Maybe you should look at making a 'box set' instead.
-Robert King
In reading the thread about the G train, it struck me what I have been missing for a while.
The MTA cares only about Manhattan and could care less about Brooklyn.
I mean the Bergen tower should have been repaired by now. The V train should have been extended to Church Avenue and express service instituted. The G train should not have been blown to pieces like it was.
It is obvious from everything they do that the only thing they care about is Manhattan. Brooklyn might just as well be a foreign city as far as they are concerned.
One should see how crowded the F trains are at 9 or 10 o'clock at night. Sure they should be crowded at rush hours but if people are standing outside rush hours, then service is inadequate.
A little bit of a compromise would have been extending the V train into Brooklyn along with the F. There is ample room on the F trakcs for that. The fact they didn't shows that what I am saying is the truth.
So you're saying that because in your opinion, the Culver Line has inadequate service that the TA doesn't give a damn about the whole of Brooklyn?
What a crock.
The TA didn't care so much about Brooklyn that they didn't institute Brooklyn express service on the A line on weekends.
And they didn't rebuild the Franklin Shuttle.
And they didn't create a popular transfer from the S at Botanic Garden to the IRT.
And they didn't give the 143's to the L line which serves.........could it be? Brooklyn.
And they didn't rebuild the Sea Beach express tracks.
And they're not in the process of completely rebuilding the Coney Island station.
The F line does not need express service in Brooklyn, nor does it need V service in Brooklyn. This is why the TA didn't fully rebuild Bergen Tower since there hasn't been a demand for express service.
Maybe you should move to a borough with tip-top subway service................like The Bronx.
Or better still: Staten Island.
:0)
Bronx...tip top service...#5 off line in the morning...#2 taking forever to go.
A crock it is not. Brooklyn, the borough, has undergone a rapid and large revitalization in recent years, and the MTA has done little to keep up.
F service is, and has been inadequate for years. The huge influx into Park Slope and Cobble hill has not been met with any useful service increase. People don't just stand til 9 at night. It is more like 1-2am. The V is a waste of time...and is looking like a failure. Adding a line isn't as important as adding real service. Sending a pokey local along every once in awhile solves nothing.
The Franklin Shuttle was rebuilt because they had no choice. It was the most neglected and decrepit line in the system...it either had to be fixed or destroyed. I guess we should be grateful we didn't lose it...
As for the A, is this new service, or simply restoring service that existed before? The A express on weekends is of benefit to Queens A riders at least as much, if not more, than Brooklyn riders.
The Sea Beach express track may have been rebuilt, now all the need to do is run some trains on it. Worse, the whole 4th avenue situation stinks. People at 45th and 53rd have worse service during rush hour than they have after (with the N express trains by-passing til 7-8pm, this part of the line gets one local until after 7/8...dumb and frustrating.) The M runs empty because it goes nowhere (this is our expanded service?) N&R run half empty in Manhattan, but packed in Brooklyn every morning. I am sure this makes sense to some of you, but I don't see the logic.
The whole situation with the G is well documented here so I won't mention it in detail. I am sure the fact that it is routed through less affluent areas of the city has everything to do with its' cuts, but, this is no shock.
Jeff was right. Brooklyn is underserved, and it gets worse every day. I am only a daily rider and dependent on the MTA for transit...I am sure I know nothing about it.
boy,as a Brooklyn resident myself,i have to agree on some of your points.I 've said for years,the T.A. DIDN'T GIVE A RATS A$$ about the Eastern Division lines,and look what they did.... put new cars in service over here. So I have decided to take a step back and wait /see aditude...one never knows,right?
The Sea Beach express tracks have been rebuilt? Is that so? Or are you just saying they can run in one direction. Since when have they been rebuilt to run south to Coney Island? I haven't heard of it. Express tracks in one direction is a half-ass solution.
One Sea Beach express track has been rebuilt and is used for General Orders and such. It's reverse signalled, so trains can run in either direction. And no, the track does not go as far as Coney Island.
David
Dave: The Sea Beach tracks are reversed signaled? Very good to hear they can run in both directions. They don't go to Coney Island. That is understandable since so many trains converged there, but I would like to see my beloved Sea Beach become the Coney Island and Brooklyn Cyclone train that gets the beach people and baseball fans to the sites and sounds of Coney Island. I wonder if there is any chance of that.
Very good to hear they can run in both directions.
"They"? Nope. Only one of the tracks is reverse signalled. The NB track can go from end-end. The SB one is completly disconnected from 4th Ave to Kings Highway. If they use the express track to get from 4th Ave to Stillwell, it'd go over the NB track until Kings Highway where it would switch back to the SB track.
Maybe he should have clarified his statement and said, " Certain parts of Bklyn." Would that make you feel better? The fact of the matter is that Bklyn. has been treated like a ( red headed step child)for years, and you can`t change or reason away, what to us Brooklynites is cold hard fact. Could you imagine Queens Blvd paxs during rush hour, waiting for F trains on 30 min headways; Well G train Have grown to expect this type of service.
Can't say that I totally agree......
What happened to the G with the arrival of the V is not the end of the world. Passengers that went to Queens Plaza to crossover for a Manhattan bound train do it one stop sooner, and probably get some room on a V vs. an overcrowded F. Yes, if you were continuing your trip into Queens, it's an inconvenience, but you can change for a Queens Blvd. Local (V) or the 7 at a new transfer not previously available.
As for Culver Express service, not enough cars, demand, whatever.................
You know what I think? You Bronx guys are going to be shocked. I think that borough has it best of them all. Between the IRT and the IND, the borough is completely covered by both elevated and subway lines. That's what I noticed anyway. I'm also informed that there is excellent bus service from the trains to points not covered by the subway, which really is only a few blocks. Not a bad walk for those who don't want to be lazy.
Do you follow this board? Or do you post whenever you feel like complaining about something? You haven't posted here for quite a while, but maybe you are a frequent reader and don't post too often. A "rapid" (smirk) transit system is different from a commuter railroad system. In a rapid transit system, schedules are not made up as to allow every rider a seat for the entire length of the line in the matter a commuter railroad is set up. Sure there are people standing on the F at 9 or 10 PM at night, but as I said to you when you ranted about the same situation on the A line some months back, does the whole entire train have an SRO situation on it in every car? What about the next train? Maybe the train you see is running late if the next train does not have the same situation? And about extending the V to Church Ave with express service, haven't you read on this board that the TA does not currently have enough cars to do this currently? The arrival of new R143 cars will allow the TA to add cars and service to existing lines as these cars are introduced to the L line. Every day without fail someone has to post onto this board the fact that the TA does not have enough B division cars right now.
Bill:
Do you memorize what every person says and then "dis" them for an opinion? The purpose of a board such as this is to express one's opinion which I have a right to...I don't think I rant as I don't post that often....
I used the decision on the G train to re-enforce my opinion. The MTA did show its disdain for the people of Brooklyn by truncating the G train, isn't it so. They made a decision of putting the interests of the commuters in Queens going into Manhattan ahead of the interests of the G riders. To me, and I am entitled to my opinion, it is just another example of the way I feel.
Now if you are telling me that in your opinion I am wrong, that's okay. You are entitled to your opinion too. I still believe that if trains are crowded in the off hours then service is inadequate. You don't have to be so angry in answering me. But don't worry...you've heard the last from me on this board. It just isn't worth it to try to engage in a dialogue and give one's opinion no matter how wrong others may think it is...
I agree with one point of your post.
I do agree that G service is seriously lacking. The line needs to have 6 cars Monday-Friday. The level of overcrowding has confirmed this.
However, IMO, the G line's weekday terminal should remain at Court Square. Queens Blvd. service overrules G crosstown service solely on ridership figures.
Maybe I have a good memory! There are a few Jeffs who post here and Jaguar is a fancy car!. I respect your opinion, but I am trying to give you facts as to why the TA has no choice in what they are doing. The reality is the TA must serve the most people with direct Manhattan service, because most people are headed to/from Manhattan and utilise all trackage given to them by the powers that are. I certainly do not dis you for your opinion, it is simply I do not agree with it. The TA brass who make the service plan decisions have no choice but to trunicate the G train and to run 4 cars. Not enough cars are availiable today, right now. In a few months from now, yes, more cars will be availiable. In addition, even if they had the cars, there is no way to run a third line to or thru Continental Ave. on the local track since the V runs on an a 6 to 8 minute peak rush hour headway as well as the R. You would have absolute gridlock due to clearing trains of passengers, trains switching tracks, sweeping and relaying trains. With apologies to another poster who diagrees with me and claims I do not do my homework, the trunication of the G is a direct result of the new 63rd St. hookup with the Queens IND. The 63rd St. line when conceived was not supposed to hook up with the Queens IND, but since the new line it was to serve was never built because of lack of funds, it was hooked up to the Queens IND so it could lose its nickname: "the tunnel to nowhere". All the TA operations brass is doing is playing the cards dealt to them by those who could not get the job of that new line to Queens accomplished.
Yes it was,but not at it;s present location.IT was suppose to go to forest hills and merge at Continental ave.
But if it did merge at Continental and not at 36th St., then the current service plan would not be necessary particularly if the merge was east of Continental.
If you look closly at the 1968 rail expantion program,it shows the 63rd street line with connections to both the superexpress and the Queens Blvd local tracks...
Correct, the G would have still been truncated. The second 63rd Street line would have used the bypass and provided a third line east of Forest Hills. This would have allowed Archer Avenue to exist while providing express service to 179th Street without forcing local passengers along Hillside to change for the express at 71.
Bill: I am not as up to date on this as you since I live in California, but I do agree that however reluctantly it was done, the G could not be permitted to go to Queens Blvd. There would have been gridlock up the giggy and people would be late for work as a matter of routine. Here is my gripe, though. Why doesn;t the G continue in Brooklyn to Church Avenue instead of terminating at Smith and Ninth Street? From what I know only the F continues on from that station, and though you could transfer from 4th Avenue, that seems to somewhat inconvenient for riders who might be in a hurry. Isn't ridership adequate from Smith & 9th to Church?
I honestly don't know what the thinking of the TA is about sending the G to Church Ave. other than the old reason: not enough cars. There would be higher crew costs because of the longer route, and the crews would presumably make one less round trip. I would like to see the G go to Church Ave. because of the transfer at Fourth Ave./Ninth St. Too many G riders at Smith/Ninth currently have to transfer to the F to go the one stop. Perhaps when CIYD assumes responsibility for the G line rolling stock the line will be extended to Church Ave. in order to lay up and put in most trainsets at the south end of the line.
From what I've heard, the G goes to Church Av because the 8 min headway, combined with the time that it takes to relay & change ends at 4th Av, could result in congestion on the F & G from Carroll St to the switch at 4th Av. By having the G service turn at Church Av, it keeps the F service running smoothly.
Going south?
Cleaning the train kills the time. Going over the switch does lose time but not so much the whole downgrade is timed.
For pure speed send it right to the middle at Church. Of course that would mess up the work trains and the F putins.
What kills the time is when there is a G train currently in the relay position at 4th Av, and there is another G train waiting to get in. Obviously, the F trains would get backed up behind the waiting G. This happens quite often on the weekends, at least it did during the old OPTO Court Sq weekend service pattern.
EEK that would be MURDER. I have never seen it. By the time the train gets cleaned my leader is usualyy ready to leave or the tower throws them out. That was on 10 mins not 8 that could be much worse.
My usual experience is to wait a minute at Carroll. Or oging North and seeing an F waiting to get it to Smith.
I see the problem as everyone getting nickel and dimed you see it as a few people gettting hammered. Could part of this be the G crews running too hot? Then Bergen should freeze them out.
This can't be a popular thread, no one was come in saying bring back the Culver Express/fix Bergen Lower.
It isn't the culver express idea so much. I don't think anyone can seriously suggest that is needed. I think the idea that more F service through at least park slope (i.e. the V) would make some sense given the population boom there and the SRO on F trains well into the night. Queens got their big upgrade, now it is time for some brooklyn love
i, for one, happen to agree.
I was just thinking about several threads like about the IRT or something and someone would break in "And that is why bergen lower must be fixed". Sort of like Carthage Dilenda Est, excuse the poor latin.
Of course that would mess up the work trains and the F putins.
It would also mess up the F Yeltsins and the F Gorbachevs.
"The 63rd St. line when conceived
was not supposed to hook up with the Queens IND, but since the new line it was to serve was never built because of lack of
funds, it was hooked up to the Queens IND so it could lose its nickname: "the tunnel to nowhere". "
No, that's not quite accurate. The local connection to Queens Blvd was always an option, and both the bypass and the connection could have been built originally, given enough funds (and no NYC financial meltdown).
The Connector, as built, is a partial accomplishment of the original intent.
Jeff: That is the worst thing you could do. You must NOT leave the board. There is room enough on here for all of us. I do not know what Bill was upset about but I can tell you he has been very helpful to me in the past. Keep posting and don't be afraid to give your opinions, but be ready to take heat when someone disagrees with you. I get it all the time with my Sea Beach rantings, but with the exception of one jerk from the Bronx, it is all in good fun.
Mot people here will say "You're wrong and this is why." (Even when sometimes they in fact are wrong.) That's a legit form of argument.
Unfortunately a few people say "You're wrong, and you're really stupid too." The only thing to do then is to ignore it and move on.
Let's face it. The TA doesn't favor a particular borough. They do however:
- Favor the many over the fewer (hence the G gets screwed to the benefit of Queens Blvd).
- Favor traffic to/from Manhattan over traffic within or between outer boroughs, not because they love Manhattan but because of the many vs. few issue. Most (not all) traffic is to/from Manhattan.
- Do things for political reasons, or to pacify a particular pressure group (e.g., empty M trains to Brooklyn all weekend).
- Make semi-arbitrary decisions or decisions of convenience. To pick an example, maybe the Culver line deserves V trains slightly more than some other line deserves the service it is getting, but it just happens to be more convenient for the TA the way it is. Then again, maybe the only way to deload the Culver line would cause even worse crowding elsewhere.
- Pinch pennies, sometimes wisely, sometimes foolishly.
I can see lots of arguments that the TA is not perfect, that it makes dumb decisions, etc. And we should all continue to complain about those decisions. But let's not attribute those decisions to prejudice against a particular borough when a much better explanation might be lack of money, convenience, or laziness. And often they even do make the correct decision.
One should see how crowded the F trains are at 9 or 10 o'clock at night. Sure they should be crowded at rush hours but if people are standing outside rush hours, then service is inadequate.
ROTFL. Every time I've ridden the 1/2 local after midnight, not only has it been SRO north of 42, there have been more passengers standing than sitting. One time, passengers had difficulty fitting into the car -- i.e., rush hour crowding. This is with ten-minute headways. To have any hope of eliminating standees on the line, headways would have to be cut in half. Do any other lines have as many tph after midnight as during rush hour? This would probably be the first.
If there are no standees, there's too much service. The TA should move the extra trains and crews to lines that are crowded, or save money for all of us by reducing service.
When I ride the subway, I assume I'll be standing. Once in a while I get a nice surprise. That is, except on the Brooklyn BMT lines, which seem to run around mostly empty on weekends.
A little bit of a compromise would have been extending the V train into Brooklyn along with the F. There is ample room on the F trakcs for that. The fact they didn't shows that what I am saying is the truth.
No, it simply shows that there aren't enough cars for B Division service increases. I'm sure, as the R-143's roll in, that this is one plan the TA is considering.
I hate to break it to you, but per passenger, Manhattan gets the worst service. We also pay more per mile than you do in Brooklyn.
A Times article comments on the subway tunnel at Ground Zero. This links to its 2nd page:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/13/nyregion/13SITE.html?pagewanted=2
--start quote--
The lower reaches of West Broadway, just north of ground zero, are being ripped open so that debris that fell into the 1 and 9
subway tunnel can be extracted.
[...]
The subway tunnel floor, ceiling and walls must be rebuilt, new track installed, the signal and communications system replaced, all somehow by November or December, when the line is set to reopen.
--end quote--
It sounds as if this will all be cut-and-cover, which of course, is fastest.
I assume the section of W.B'way referred to is between 7WTC and the Post Office.
As part of the rebuild, this segment of W.B'way is where you want a pedestrian subway, a mezzanine. For pedestrians headed to the subway this way, just about anything is better than being asked to cross Vesey Street. You want entrances at least at the north side of Barclay St. both on W.B'way and on Greenwich St. Something thru the 7WTC basement would be satisfactory, tho' the idea of going thru what will be a ConEd substation gives one pause. The plans for this need to be finalized just about NOW.
I believe the tracks are immediately below street level at Vesey and W Broadway (street level is considerably lower there than at Vesey and Church). So they would either need to sink the tracks deeper or build passageways on both east and west side of the tracks. And sinking the tracks deeper would inconvenience all the people who aren't coming from north of Vesey (plus delay the schedule and cost a lot of money).
Still, your idea has great merit. I've always hated crossing Vesey St there because when you do have a walk sign the cars coming south on W Broadway think it's their God-given right to turn left or right onto Vesey without slowing down.
The plans for this [pedestrian subway or mezzanine] need to be finalized just about NOW.
My bet is that to get the 1 line up and running by November, this will be as quick and dirty a job as the TA has ever done. I don't think there will be ANY amenities of any kind, and remember the Cortlandt station will just vanish. (I'll be curious to ride through and see what's left, a year or so hence.)
This situation won't be permanent, though. Lots of planning not only for the PA's mega transit hub, but also for redevelopment and redesign of the surrounding areas, is being done. I'd say that 10 years from now, the Vesey/West Broadway intersection could look very different than it did in WTC days. Esp. if they restore some of the streets ripped out for the WTC, thus slightly relieving traffic at that corner.
They'll have to order the elevators now, to get them in place, as promised, by November.
With prefab available, it may be quick, but I don't think you'll be displeased by the results. TA engineers are resourceful.
With prefab available, it may be quick, but I don't think you'll be displeased by the results. TA engineers are resourceful.
I bet the line reopens before all elevator work is completed on the two surviving stations. We've all used stations with areas roped off while they install elevators. Reopening the line and restoring pre-9/11 IRT service patterns on the West Side is the important part. Elevators are "bells & whistles" in this case, though it's great they can be added as a byproduct.
And, hey, I'll be grateful to the TA for just getting the line up and running only 14 months after 9/11. (Be nice if they could do it ON 9/11/02, but even I won't push for that!)
Prefab WHAT? Elevator kits?
I sure hope they don't put any streets back in. Yes, the whole place should be very pedestrian friendly (more so than the old WTC), but streets benefit the few over the many.
Even the convoluted passageways of the WTC were a pleasure relative to trying to navigate the narrow streets of the eastern financial district. You could walk from Church St. and Park Place to anywhere in the WFC outside of fare control without ever having to cross a street.
(Of course, you could get lost doing it because the signs were bad).
I sure hope they don't put any streets back in. Yes, the whole place should be very pedestrian friendly (more so than the old WTC), but streets benefit the few over the many.
I should probably say "street alignments." They might be pedestrian-only. But there is a major need to reconnect the WTC site to its surroundings and integrate it into downtown and the WFC area. The old WTC behaved like it had landed from outer space, totally turning its back on 3 of its 4 sides. Now that the surrounding area is so much better (West Side Highway gone, WFC built, Battery Park City, etc.), whatever's built should be accessible from all of those places.
And restoring major streets gives you sightlines and understandable surface transport. NYC is a city of walkers, always has been, always will be. Underground connex are fine *in addition* but primary circulation is up top. And you'll get plenty of underground circulation if the PA's mega-transit-hub is built!
Street-aligned pedestrian malls would be great. I agree, people on the surface as well as underground need to be able to get through from point A to point B without the detours that the WTC forced.
Street-aligned pedestrian malls would be great. I agree, people on the surface as well as underground need to be able to get through from point A to point B without the detours that the WTC forced.
Precisely my thoughts. Although I bet if they're ped-only, they'll still be accessible to fire trucks. For obvious reasons.
I don't think the street grid necessarily has to be put back in, but entryways to the complex on all four sides should be at street level. Rebuiling the Great Wall of Vescey Street now, especially if there is to be some sort of memorial on site, makes no sense.
However because of the angle of the surrounding streets. they will have to decide on what, if any, underground shopping area will be put in place and on what level it will be located. In the old WTC, the mall was one level below ground at Church, but over on West, that same level was even with the street. So to create street level access points on all four sides, any underground mall will have to either slope down towards the west to remain one level underground, or it will have to drop down one level somewhere near the middle of the site.
A gradual slope (wwhich would be matched by a slope down towards the Hudson at the aboveground plaza level) would seem more user friendly, but to do that the MTA will have to drop the tunnel for the IRT 1/9 down about 10 feet or so when the rebuild it, in order to allow for adeqate clearance. A mall that drops down one level just after crossing over the IRT tunnel would require fewer changes on the MTA's part, but would still create a "wall" situation on Vescey and Liberty at West Broadway on the north and Greewhich on the south (though direct mall entrances there would partially solve that problem).
I think the answer is a 2-level mall, 1 and 2 levels below Church St. The lower level would admittedly be bisected by the 1/9 line, but it would have the advantage of coming out at street level on West and Vesey Streets, as well as providing a passageway under the N/R at Church St.
The upper level could connect to street level at Church St and feed into rebuilt north and south bridges over West St and the upper level mall at the WFC.
With proper escalators all this can be quite smooth for pedestrians.
I would guess if they plan to interconnect the IRT, BMT, IND and PATH trains, there would be a second sub-level to the mall, which would include the transfer tunnels along with the PATH station mezzanine, which presumably would have stores and other services. But the IRT 1/9 tunnel would block connecting both sides of the second-sub level concourse together.
What the MTA and Port Authority should do is drop the IRT tunnel down another 15 feet while they have the chance right now during reconstruction, so that the second level of any evnetual underground mall could be extended all the way from Church to West Streets. That would also allow them to put the IRT fare control area on the second level (along with the IND/BMT/PATH transfer tunnel, probably along the Vesaey Street side of the concourse) and convert the Cortlandt Street station from a side platform arrangement to a center platform, which would half the number of escallators and elevators they would need for the new station to meet ADA requirements (It would also make it easier for unknowing passengers who don't get off the rear five cars before South Ferry to do a cross-platform transfer at Cortlandt and try again).
The northbound 1/9 track coming out of Cortlandt would have to rise up a level just after leaving the station to allow the 2/3 tracks turning from Park Place onto W. Broadway to pass under it, but the distance between Vescey and Park Place is long enough so that the grade wouldn't have to be that steep.
What the MTA and Port Authority should do is drop the IRT tunnel down another 15 feet while they have the chance right now during reconstruction ...
Like I said before, I think the current plan is to slap what's there back together ASAP for a November opening.
However, given that the PA is doing the same thing with PATH *and* planning a relocated Hudston Terminal-site new PATH station, as part of a grand transit-hub scheme ... I'm hoping the TA is doing the same with the IRT.
What opens in Nov 2002 (IRT) and in 2004 (PATH) may well not be what's there for either line 10 years hence. So your design for dropping the IRT to make a better mall could still happen. Just not by November. They could build the new IRT tunnel as part of/at the same time as the PATH station, then switch over and demolish the present, patched-up IRT tunnel. (I also like your idea of making it center platform -- the whole area will be wide open, so they don't have to fit it beneath existing buildings as they did when it was built.)
Since the IRT tunnel divides immediately north of Vesecy, it would be possible to build trackways for an island platform Cortlandt St. station one level below the current tracks but outside their present pathway, which would allow service to continue while the work one level below was done. North of Vescey the tracks would actually be straighter, since the ramps up could meet the existing line after the tracks split apart to allow the 2/3 tracks to come up from Park Place.
Once those tracks are built and connected, they could be put in use and work could begin on building the island platform between those tracks at Cortlandt, and the new mall area and transfer tunnel one level above, where the old tracks used to be.
There would be some service disrptions when they connected the new station to the existing tunnel north of Vescey and south of Liberty and while the new station went in but it would only be marginally worse than what went on between Queens Plaza and 36th Street over the past few years, and the IRT Lex express survived construction of the 59th St. station in the late 50s and early 60s while through service went on. If the bulk of the work was done on weekends and at nights it shouldn't cause that many problems for West Side IRT riders.
My thoughts exactly!
The upper level could connect to street level at Church St and feed into rebuilt north and south bridges over West St and the upper level mall at the WFC.
Well, I'm hoping that the ground and "streets" or whatever slope downwards so that the upper level would only be the eastern half of the site. As noted, escalators make this easy.
But, I'm not sure how much upper level mall at the WFC would remain. It was designed that way just so that the bridge from the WTC across West Street would have something to feed into besides escalators.
All depends if NYS does actually sink West Street below ground level, as they said they wanted to.
If they generally followed the slope of the land for the entire site, any underground mall would probably be two levels between Church and West Broadway/Greewich St., with the new PATH mezzanine on the second sub-level near Church along with the IRT/BMT/IND transfer walkway/tunnel. West of the IRT 1/9 tracks, the upper level of the underground mall would have to disappear, while the second sub-level would continue on to West Street, where it would only be one level below ground. Depending on what they do with West Street itself, there could either be a tunnel to the World Financial Center or if the street is lowered to that level, escallators and elevators up to ground level to walk over to the WFC and Battery Park City.
Depending on what they do with West Street itself, there could either be a tunnel to the World Financial Center or if the street is lowered to that level, escallators and elevators up to ground level to walk over to the WFC and Battery Park City.
Newspaper articles specifically referred to the underground transit mall extending "to WFC". I have to think that would require crossing West Street, which is wide and busy.
Either NYS leaves West Street at grade, and the transit mall goes underneath, or West Street goes underneath and the transit mall ends east of West Street. I would hate to see more bridges West Street -- the WTC/WFC bridge looked like a midwestern downtown somewhere.
Didn't the state just finish rebuilding West Street as a surface-level "urban arterial boulevard?" Despite all of the past plans, I believe the decision was made (due to cost, mainly) to rebuild West Street all the way up the west side as a compromise between an avenue and a highway and to include features like the ped/bike path and improved riverfront access. Of course, the portion around the WTC/WFC might be damaged enough to allow for revisions...
Didn't the state just finish rebuilding West Street as a surface-level "urban arterial boulevard?"
Yep. It's great, and the linear Hudson River Park gets ENORMOUS usage.
I believe the decision was made (due to cost, mainly) to rebuild West Street all the way up the west side as a compromise between an avenue and a highway and to include features like the ped/bike path and improved riverfront access.
Cost, yeah, but also intense community opposition to Westway which is its own thread if not its own BBS!
Of course, the portion around the WTC/WFC might be damaged enough to allow for revisions...
Don't know how damaged the roadway itself is. This is much more about NYS taking advantage of a horrible opportunity to do some better urban planning.
My bet is that to get the 1 line up and running by November, this will be as quick and dirty a job as the TA has ever done. I don't think there will be ANY amenities of any kind, and remember the Cortlandt station will just vanish. (I'll be curious to ride through and see what's left, a year or so hence.)
I don't see how anything else would be possible given the compressed time frame.
Most likely some remnants of Cortlandt will remain visible.
That was the segway into a story being broadcasted on WTOP (wtopnews.com for live feed) about the worst airliner accident pre 9/11 in DC. A Florida Airlines flight that took of from National Airport hit the 14th Street Bridge, since it was very icy and snow was falling, prompting new regulations on how airlines operated in those conditions. Later that day, a MetroRail train derailed and hit a wall, killing 5. Coincidentally, January 13 is also the day WMATA opened their last 5 stations.
I will never forget that date. I lived in Arlington, Virginia at the time. I worked for a tour bus company on West Virginia Avenue in NE DC. Went to get my paycheck, and drove back across the 14th Street bridge, and it took me perhaps 10-15 minutes to get where I lived (Glebe Road & Lee Highway). Turned on the TV to watch the news and saw the plane crash and thought "Geez, I just came across the bridge and didn't see anything!" I wonder to this day how close the timing was of the crash to me driving across the bridge. It was snowing really bad, wouldn't have seen a thing.
I then walked down to the Ballston Metrorail station thinking I'd go over and see what's up. Got to Rosslyn in no time, but then no southbound trains for a LOOOOOONG time. Nobody on Metrorail seemed to know what was going on, the only announcements were "There are unexpected delays for trains bound for National Airport" (the southern terminus at the time). I finally got on a train (within about 30 minutes) and got off at Pentagon and walked over to the river to watch the eerie rescue attempts. The only thing visible was the top foot or so of the Air Florida 737's tail fin.
I remember that day quite vividly, the snowstorm that struck DC caused a lot of panic and overloaded the entire transportation network and that was a major contibutor to the Metrorail overload. Another factor was the foot-dragging on the part of Air Florida in de-icing the plane. To save money, and to get the flight off the ground, they declined a second de-icing treatment.
Another topic, the entire snowfall in the DC area amounted to a measely (by Pennsylvania standards) 7 inches. In a city like Washington DC, 1 inch usually causes a panic.
I remember reading that OPM decided to let everyone out even though Metro and DCPW said to wait so they could prepare for the early rush hour. OPM didn't listen and it made matters worse.
All it takes in Denver is a quarter-inch and they start dumping gravel, gravel everywhere.
For what it's worth, it's also the day that marked the turning point for Howard Stern's career, since his phone call to National Airlines after the crash got him fired in D.C. but also got him major publicity as a new "shock jock" which led to his hiring in New York at WNBC-AM.
For what it's worth, it's also the day that marked the turning point for Howard Stern's career, since his phone call to National Airlines after the crash got him fired in D.C. but also got him major publicity as a new "shock jock" which led to his hiring in New York at WNBC-AM.
What did Howard say (although I can imagine it wasn't in good taste)?
By today's standards it was mild -- Howard called up National Airlines after the crash and asked if he could buy a ticket on a flight to the 14th Street Bridge, which of course was the one the jet hit after taking off from National Airport -- though in the aftermath of the WTC attacks, jokes about airplane crashes are probably as 'out' as they have been in the shock jock world for the past 15 years.
Were it not for the WTC attack, Howard or someone else probably could have easily gotten away with repeating the same fake phone call two months ago and asked American Airlines if they could book a flight from JFK to the Rockaways. I suppose this is part of what they mean when they said "The world changed after September 11."
Actually, that's a common rumor...Howard Stern never actually called them.
AirDisaster.com has a Special Report article about Palm 90 at http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-af90.shtml. This kind of thing is a tragic reminder that each and every air passenger is very much at the mercy of the cockpit crew. One wrong move, and 200+ people are dead. Even so, I still feel safe flying (and working for) the U.S. airline system.
--
Ian Penovich
Grrrrrrrrr
Pull any book from Pratt & Whitney on jet engines, and read it:
WHEN IN DOUBT, USE ANTI-ICE
In fact, there is virtually no performance penalty involved with it.
Further, the crew should have immediately realized with abnormal pressure readings at the throttle position, something was up.
Obviously, they had no experience with cold weather operations, and it seems even little experience with JT-8D engines either.
In any case, why wasn't there a call for more power, when it was obvious that the airspeed wasn't sufficient to maintain flight? Jet engines can be pressed beyond their normal ratings, though this will dammage them and require a diversion toanother airport and a change of planes.
Better than crashing, for sure.
I once heard that had they cleared the bridge by a few feet, the accident wouldn't have been as bad...
I remember that incident rather well. The Florida Airlines Boeing 737 took off, and because too much ice had built up on the wings the plane crashed. I don't remember the accident with the railroad however.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember it, too. Heard the breaking news story as the tragedy unfolded.
I heard the breaking news too as the tragedy unfolded.
#3 West End Jeff
Periodically, I hear the roarof a diesel train (usually a loco with a few cars behind it, but sometimes just the loco) on the R6 line but have never caught sight of it. (This is not the Conrail freight that runs 5 mph through the Manayunk Canal to reach the cardboard box factory on Venice Island). There is no set schedule, as far as I can discern.
Does anyone know what that train is? Is it a SEPTA work train? Is it Norfolk Southern or CSX?
I am referring to the Norristown line, not the Cynwyd line.
Are you sure it's on R6? I'm a bit up the hill from it but I can often hear the CSX trains on the West Side line very clearly. (If conditions are right I can also hear the R6 blowing for the Shawmont Ave and Parker Ave crossings.)
To the best of my knowledge there are no freights on R6 (no customers remaining below Spring Mill) except for those which use it between the old Trenton Cutoff and the access to the West Side line west of Norristown. The only other possibility is a SEPTA work train, as ballast hoppers and other equipment are often spotted on the siding at Wissahickon, but if they were going north of there the possibilities of linking up to the SEPTA system are limited (using the ex-CR Stony Creek branch to access Lansdale, but it would be just as easy to go inbound and hook up at 16th St Junction).
Oh, it's definitely the R6. ZRuns on the elevated line right above my bedroom window on Cresson Street. I look out my window too late to catch it.
The only thing this could be is a SEPTA work run, to the best of my knowledge, since there are no freights working below Spring Mill. I've got my spies working, so we'll see if we get a better answer.
Many thanks.
Click Here
Indeed. See the general site: http://www.railmerchants.net/passenger/
I noticed the disclaimer about passenger coaches: Non-Amtrak compliant.
If they're NYCT compliant... move over, Belmont.
Just imagine that business if he (they?)
carried the one true candy EVERYBODY wants!!?
are you referring to the redbirds? Not all of them are going underwater, so some are likely to be available. -Nick
Delivery available??
...at buyer's expense!!!!!
Notice how they touched up the photo to make the car look CLEAN and NOT rusty!!!
But note that the ad didn't say how much they'd pay people to take these rotting old LIRR coaches.
Someday I wish I could own one of those.
I've ridden thru Lex/125, but never once explored the station. I've looked at the track maps and see north and south-bound trains are join together there on separate levels. I'm wondering if there is a full mezzanine.
I'm also wondering just they have in mind when you hear about stubbing the 2Av at Lex/125. Unless you can run trains over the Lex, it has to be under it, and that makes for a clumsy transfer. Upstairs for two levels, then downstairs for three levels. Unless of course they can do it off the backs of the center platforms, but I think tracks are in the way.
Just what do they have in mind?
Just what do they have in mind?
Don't remember the source, but I think the plan is for a parallel alignment to the Lex line so that the end of 2nd Ave can connect to a future tunnel to the Bronx (either to take over the Dyre Avenue line or a new line to Co-Op City). No idea about transfer arrangements, though.
I've said this before. The best config. would be to have the 2d Ave line terminus run east-west under 125th, between Lex and Park. That would allow a direct connection with both the Lex line and the Metro-North 125th St. stop. If (and it's a big if) the 2d Ave is ever extended to the Bronx, a Bronx branch could be contunued straight north on 2d Ave., with the 125th St. terminus remaining as an alternate terminus. And my plan would allow for future extension along 125th crosstown -- a very needed connector line. Also, where would the proposed terminus parallel to Lex Ave fit anyway? Under existing buildings? There's no street room.
That depends on how deep the subway is supposed to be at that particular point. Rememeber that to get from 2nd Ave. to 125th and Lex the plans call for the line cutting across blocks.
I've wondered how they plan to set up the "paralell arrangment" in the context of the station that is there already. While the IRT local tracks are on the correct (east) side of the platform at both levels to permit an easy merge, if the Second Ave. line is routed up 125th towards Lex and then turned north again, there's no way the platform for the new line could begin any further south than midway between 125th and 126th streets. And since the platform would have to be 90 feet longer than the IRT platform to handle the 600 foot trains, the result would be a complex where the three or four platforms would be as out of alignment with each other as the IND platforms at 42nd St. and Eighth Avenue are.
Not that this is a total barrier to the idea, but since the MTA has these grand plans that people are going hustle off the IRT trains and onto the new Second Ave. line to releive crowding on the Lex, if the two platforms are nowhere near each other, I doubt people are going to opt to leave the 4 or 5 (or even the 6 if it still goes to the Bronx) and walk all the way to the north end of the platform and then upstairs and downstairs again to get on the new train, especially if only the stubway section down to 63rd St. is built.
That's why a perpendicular terminus along 125th form Park to Lex is better. It's easier to transfer from the Lex if the 2d Ave crosses under it . Also, you'd get direct transfers from Metro-North, and an easier, underground transfer from MN to the Lex.
I am still not very sure of what the arrangment would be. For making a transfer, it certainly seems to be clumsy, less than easy. Some people would use it, but all considered, it's not going to be too popular in the shrunken stub of a line they plan for it. It will be close to useless until it gets extended down past 34th St.
I do not see the 2nd Av line giving any serious relief to the Lex unless/until it is extended into the Bronx, taking over existing service and/or offering essentially cross-platform transfers.
In the back of the planners' mind, I think, is the idea to extend the 7th Av BMT north via 5th Ave to 125th, thence east to join the 2nd Av line and thence north into the Bronx, as 4 tracks. This would seriously relieve the Lex.
Of course, doing the extension from 7th Av first would offer more bang for the buck (fewer stations to build, a straightforward, easy r.o.w.), but the 2nd Av would then NEVER get built.
"I do not see the 2nd Av line giving any serious relief to the Lex unless/until it is extended into the Bronx, taking over existing service and/or offering essentially cross-platform transfers."
There are huge numbers of people waiting at every Lex southbound platform from 96th down to 68th in the morning rush hour. Many of these people live at Third ave and east and would be happy to use a Second Ave train instead.
Enough people to make the 2nd Ave trains full? Maybe not. But certainly enough to reduce the crowding on the 4/5/6.
Don't get me wrong, I want the 2ndAve too, but it's going to be a VERY expensive alternative to the 2nd Av bus for a long time.
I've made the observation before that the line makes sense only in its full and complete form. The truncated stub they will start with will not do to too much for the Lex. Any relief at all is a good thing, but it will still be over 100% of capacity.
Let's not forget the stubway can be (and is suppoosed to be) connected at 63rd to the BMT Braodway line, bringing trains all the way downtown, even perhaps to Bkln. A lot of Upper E. Siders will use this to get to Wall St.
That's the long and slow way to get to Wall St from the UES.
However, lots of upper east siders do work on 6th and 7th Aves in midtown. You can see them streaming out of the GCT station heading west or to the shuttle, and you can see them transferring to the N/R/W at 60th and Lex now.
Not enough of them to make a stubway an efficient use of the money, but enough to relieve crowding on the 4/5/6.
<>
Not any longer than the Lex, given the congestion, and assuming you use the Bway express tracks.
Gotta start from somewhere. And it is clear that the firstoperable segment will not be the one below 63rd Street.
In the back of the planners' mind, I think, is the idea to extend the 7th Av BMT north via 5th Ave to 125th, thence east to join the 2nd Av line and thence north into the Bronx, as 4 tracks. This would seriously relieve the Lex.
I've *never* seen this proposed ... and I wonder if a Fifth Avenue line would suffer from the same problems as the CPW lines: Only people on one side of it. Also, talk about NIMBY-ism ... !
It makes a certain amount of sense, but wouldn't it ultimately make the Stubway obsolete? Also you'd end up with THREE east side lines: Fifth, Lex, Second. I can imagine Westsiders screaming given the crowding on the 1/2/3.
Where'd you hear this one? (Not that I think it'll be built in our lifetimes ... even 60th to 125th would be a brutally expensive proposition.
As I keep saying, the 2nd Av makes sense only when fully completed, from Bronx to Lower Manhattan.
An extension from 7th Av via 5th gives more immediate service for less money (tho' parts of 2nd A are 'completed from 80s north, excepting for stations).
For a 5th Av line, only 2 stations are really needed, one in front of the Met Museum in the low 80s, and again at Mt. Sinai Hospital at 101st St. Politics would probably force another at 116th. Such a line really would get used, from the start, which is would not be true for the stubway until it links all the way downtown.
I agree that the full length subway should be built. But there's nothing wrong with arranging for a Stubway-service while the lower half gets built - and here's where we need to keep nagging legislators.
What's the point of extending BMT 7th Ave line to 125th? It will already be connected via 63rd to the 2d Ave line which goes to 125th.
What's the point of extending BMT 7th Ave line to 125th? It will already be connected via 63rd to the 2d Ave line which goes to 125th.
The point? Unused capacity. 63rd also goes to 6Av. You have service to Broadway, 6th Av and 2nd Av.
Since 6th is pretty well up to capacity (or will be when B and D return), I assume the 7th Ave Q will run up the upper 2d Ave line via 63rd. There's really no need for a 5th Ave extension, and it won't be built in our grandchildren's lifetime anyway.
The 63rd Street tunnel, like other tunnels, can take two major frequent services. The F is the first one. A Second Avenue Subway (let's call it the X train for now) can be another.
When the Second Avenue line is extended further south, things will get complicated. Second Av service could run three services: North-South 125(or Bronx) to Financial District; 125th via 63rd to Broadway BMT line; Financial District-Forest Hills (requiring another reshuffling of services along Queens Blvd unless we want to invest in another two tracks - the Super Express, anyone?)...
Of course, if we really open the $$$ spigots maybe the that bellmouth under 41 Av can take the train to the LIE and a brand new line (actually, a line the Board of Estimate approved back in 1968 but never funded...)
That line was moved over to Jewel ave from the L.I.E,before it wasd cancelled.it was moved and shortend to reduce the cost per mile.
Are we talking about the same line?
There would be no need in a 2nd Av. line from the Financial Distrct to Forest Hills; by the time the line gets built (if ever) the E and the R will serve that purpose. Along with the J/M/Z, if the Broadway El is improved/replaced.
So you're saying the E and the R already serve that purpose now - but they serve the west side.
Are you saying there would be no demand for direct service under 2nd Avenue from the East Side (which is what a Financial District-Forest Hills via 63rd would be)?
I agree with your point. A Queens Blvd train heading through 63rd St tunnel and down 2nd Ave into the JMZ would cut the trip from Forest Hills to the big buildings on Water St by 15 mins relative to taking the E, which is further west and further north.
Look at the track configuration. The IND connection (used now by the F) naturally leads to Queens. The BMT connection naturally leads to 2nd Avenue. I think we want to keep the switching there to a minimum.
The BMT connection naturally leads to 2nd Avenue. I think we want to keep the switching there to a minimum.
So, if the Bronx tunnel did get built and the Second Avenue line was connected to a Dyre Avenue branch converted to "B" division specs -- that would take the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit lines into ... the BRONX!
Oh my.
Why NOT?! They already go into Queens!! (J/M)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Why NOT?! They already go into Queens!! (J/M)
Yeah, true, but ... somehow that's different. Queens is adjacent to Brooklyn. It's on the same land mass. The Bronx is ... MAINLAND!
>>>>The Bronx is ... MAINLAND! <<<
THANK YOU! Very much.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>The Bronx is ... MAINLAND! <<<
THANK YOU! Very much.
But it's not the Main Land :-)
It isn't even the semi-mainland. What it is is...........Well it depends what your meaning of is is.
My meaning that the Bronx is on the mainland is concrete. The Bronx IS on the mainland, no ifs, ands, or buts. Nobody is going to try and fool me on this.
#3 West End Jeff
Ummm ... Da Bronx is connected to the same land mass as California. Manhattan is an Island, Staten Island ... well ... and of course Krooklyn and Queens is part of Long ... ummm ... Island ... so yes, Da Bronx is part of America while the rest of the boroughs are ... well ... offshore. :)
We are coastal people. Bronxites don't know the beach from a bitch. And when Bob and I did New York for one day last summer we noticed right off that Brooklyn was tempered by some nice breezes, while the Bronx smelled and sweltered in the oppressive August heat. I'll bet you really miss that, don't you?
Heh. One of the many reasons I moved upstate. :)
But yeah, while you guys get that medical waste whiff off the Atlantic, those of us in the Bronx have the "Rivera" ... Orchard Beach, and we're STILL part of the mainland and wave our Ker-nickers in your general direction. Heh. Moo.
The Bronx may not be as good as it once was, but good people still reside there.
I wish I could have seen the Bronx in it's hey day. There's a lot of history there....
-Stef
Still is, bro ... and long dead parts of it are slowly waking up again teeming with fresh life. It ain't dead yet. :)
You have it straight Stef. Yes, the Bronx does have a lot of history and most of it good. And Bob and I saw for myself that the people were very friendly when we stopped and talked to them. I am truly sorry that the borough has undergone some tough times. My wife thinks my feelings towards the Bronx stem from my lifelong dislike of the Yankees. What you guys need is to get a bunch of young yuppies to move in and revive the place and get some new businesses in as well. Have a great day.
Whoa! Wanna educate me? I don't know what a beach is..... Lol.
-Stef
I'll tell you what Stef. You tell me about Orchard Beach and I will give you my lowdown on Coney Island and Rockaway. Pardon my ignorance but until I got on Subtalk I never had a clue about the Bronx having a beach. I never even heard of the place when I lived in New York, so you will have to educate me. Is is an upscale area, how's the tide and how close is it to the subway. ( gotta stay on topic or your friend Andee will get his thought police blotter out and start admonishing me). BTW, what are of the Bronx do you live in and are you a Yankee fan?
I'm a Yankee Fan and I live in one of the poorer areas. Never fear though, it's undergoing revitalization.
-Stef
Tell you what I'll do. E-Mail me and when I get back to New York I'll buy you lunch----in the Bronx, of course.
Fred: Just a small correction. We capitalize the article in "The Bronx."
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
But we say it "DA Bronx" (like Chicago natives with "da BEARSsssss") ... moo. :)
What was the original meaning of "The Bronx?" What does it mean, Bronx? What is the Bronx?
The Bronx was orginnally called Brounx cause a family called the Brounx owned most of the land. The Bronx was mostly farm land. Many people who know the family Brounx said "Lets go see the Brounx" and when the Bronx came part of the City of New York the letter u was dropped and to this day as they say the rest is history.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd Bronx NY.
Close; in the 17th century, a Jonas Bronck owned a tobacco plantation along a river that was given his name; the county was later named for the river.
You are absolutely correct. It's named after the Bronx River, which is named for Jonas Bronck.
The Bronck's farm was developed into an early summer resort. People applied the name of what was once a part of what we now call the Bronx to describe the whole of it.
Something similar has happened with 'Sunset Park' in Brooklyn. Originally, this only described the actual park. It is now used to describe the neighborhood around it, including parts rather distant from it -- all the way down to the Sea Beach cut.
The borough came before the county (1898 vs. 1914).
Chud: Thank you young sir. I never knew that and it is nice to pick up info you didn't know before. Now where is Bedford Park?
Break out a map of da city, look for where Mosholu Parkway hits Jerome Avenue and just to the west of there is the magic "hood" served by the D train and the #4 on a subway map ... Dudeland! :)
#4 Sea Beach Fred, your welcome. Sorry so late answering you back, i just got in to work in Mid-twon Manhattan.
Bedford Park Blvd is in the North West section of the Bronx, It is home to Lehman College, Bronx High School of Science and De Witt Clinton High School. Also it is the home of the #4 train and the D train Yards on Jerome Ave and the NY Botincal Garden on Southern Blvd. Also it is home to the Grand Concourse which runs the whole length of the Bronx. You can also take the #4 or the D train northbound to Bedford Park Blvd.
Hope this answer is helpful to you as you visit the Big Bronx, Home to the NY Yankees 26 time MLB Champions.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
Looks like Chud beat me and pigs to it ... and he's CORRECT ... DA Bronx was once a number of farms, West Farms being one of the larger ones and it got its name from the plural of the farm families in the area ... I guess being born and raised there was the reason why I headed upstate. Moo. :)
West Farms was also named because it was WEST of the river. It broke free of the Town of Westchester in 1846, becoming part of the City of New York in 1874. Westchester was taken over in 1895, thus giving Westchester County the dubious distinction of having its namesake in a different county (like Bergen County, NJ).
Fred: The Bronx is named for Jonas Bronck a Dutch citizen of Scandanavian orgin. He purchased 500 acres from the Dutch West India Company on what is today the southern shoreline of The Bronx. He also purchased additional land from the Indian sachems Ranaque and Tacamac.
When people would go to vist him they would say "lets vist the Bronckes.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Orchard Beach, is in the Pelham Bay Park/City Island Area. I consider City Island to be upscale, so it would be to your liking. City Island is quite wonderful. The Beach is pretty decent.
-Stef
Thanks Stef. I take it then that is might be on Long Island sound. Is it near any of the subways? I saw "A Bronx Tale" and DeNiro drove a bus there from his Italian neighborhood where he lived in the movie. I will try to visit there if I get back in the summer.
Correct. It's on the L.I. Sound.
-Stef
When I was very little at about four years old, my mother told me that we live on an island in Brooklyn but The Bronx is not an island. I asked her why we don't move to The Bronx? Because a big wave may come, overtake the island (Brooklyn) and wash us away.
Kids say the darndest things!
When I was a kid that used to happen all the time-----in a matter of speaking. The wave was the Yankees and they seemed to always come around in October and spoil it for our Dodgers. It really pissed me off and I developed an antaganism for the Bronx boys that lasts to this days. Old feeling do die hard.
Kind of like my dislike for USC, being a diehard Notre Dame subway alumnus.
Fred: If you want to reach "The Bronx Rivera" take the #6 Lex-Pelham Line to Pelham Bay Park and transfer to a MABSTOA Bx 12 bus. Orchard Beach has its own bus terminal and for many years riding either Surface Transit and later MABSTOA you had to purchase an "Orchard Beach Token" to board the buses at the beach. Orchard Beach is in Pelham Bay Park which is the largest park in the NYC Park System. You might wish to vist the "Bartow-Pell Mansion" while you are there.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Which is bigger: Van Cortlandt Park or Pelham Bay Park? Both in The Bronx.
Pelham Bay Park is larger by far.
Peace,
ANDEE
Larry: Once again you come through like a chance. What I told Stef, I tell you. When I get to New York, lunch is on me. I hope this time we do touch base. I will keep your post for future reference.
Fred: Maybe you can clarify this one for me. Its true that the Yanks and the Dodgers met several times in the World Series, but for many years by far the Dodgers' nemesis was the Giants,not the Yankees.
This was the most often run subway series when those two National League teams would play each other. Its strange that the rivalry that is always talked about is with the Yanks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Quite true. You have Bill Terry's famous 1934 question, "Is Brooklyn still in the league?" It came back to haunt him, as the Dodgers, managed by Casey Stengel, knocked the Giants out of pennant contention late that season. It took Stengel more than four hours to get back to his hotel, as he was swept away from the Polo Grounds by jubilant Dodger fans onto the subway. The train made a round trip and reached Jay St. before Stengel could finally escape.
Charlie Dressen provided a parallel incident in 1953, IIRC, when he proclaimed, "The Giants is dead."
Dressen said the same thing in 1951 and it came back to haunt him when Bobby Thomson hit that historic homerun. In '53, he was right, and the Dodgers had a field day with the Giants that summer winning their last ten games against them and finishing 15-7 for the year. In '51, they were 14-11 against the Giants.
Dressen may be the only manager ever to win two consecutive pennants (and almost a third) and be fired - all because he wanted a 3-year contract. The Dodgers had a strict policy of signing managers to one-year contracts back then because they had been paying too many people not to manage. Walt Alston wound up signing 23 consecutive one-year contracts.
It would have been interesting to see how the Giants would have done in '53 with Willie Mays in the lineup. He spent that entire season in military service.
Yes, you are right Redbird. The Yankee-Dodger rivalry was for supremacy of the baseball world. It pitted the lordly Yankees against the Brooklyn Bums, as they were also known affectionally. The disliking of the Yankees came during World Series time when they would prove unbeatable. We Dodger fans hardly paid any attention to them during the regular season because they were in different leagues and their league was broing as hell because they dominated it.
I can only describe the Giants and the Dodgers as unmitigated hatred. It was the most rabid rivalry in the history of sports, and when they played anything went and usually did. There were fights inside and outside of the stadium when they played. And friends became temporary enemies when we would duke it out over our teams. These things did happen. It is hard to understand what the Brooklyn Dodger and New York Giant rivalry was, but, believe me, everything I've just told you is true.
A Dodger fan once actually shot a Giants fan during an argument.
Also the Bx5, all of them run to Orchard Beach, only some Bx12s go there (the others go to Bay Plaza in Co-op City).
The Bronx isn't always a pleasant place to be during the summer. If you go to Throgg's Neck however, it is very pleasant when the breeze comes off the Long Island Sound. Coney Island is the best or the Rockaways on an unpleasantly hot day.
#3 West End Jeff
I have never been to Throgg's neck Jeff. Isn't that strange? I will have to take a bigger tour of the Bronx since I really know less about that place than the other main boriughs.
Fred: If you would like to vist Throgs Neck take the IRT #6 Lex-Pelham Line to Westchester Square-East Tremont Avenue Station and transfer to the MaBSTOA bus Bx-40 or Bx-42 Tremont Avenue Routes. You can vist the New York State Maritime Academy and see their training ship "Empire State VI." You can also wander over to Edgewater Park where the residents own their own homes but rent the land that they are on from the city. Its something called "ground rentals." Edgewater Park has one of the two volunteer fire departments in The Bronx. The other one is on City Island and has the fireboat "Seacat."
Larry,RedbirdR33
You can also take the Bx 40 or Bx 42 to Barkley Ave, the stop after Bruckner Blvd. What's there? The Bronx's only ORIGINAL 7-Eleven store! There is one other 7-Eleven in The Bronx, right by the Middletown Road stop of the #6 Train. That store, however, is a converted Store 24.
Hey Larry, you will have to be my guide in the Bronx. You really know the place. Thanks for the info. I will look forward to traversing those areas.
Fred: I look forward to seeing the BMT and the Sea Beach with you when you come to New York.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred, you'd be very surprised that there are parts of the Bronx that are very pleasant and suburban with nary a burnt-out tenement in sight. Thing is, they're mostly far removed from subways and highways, although you see hints from the Pelham and Dyre lines, and while driving on the Henry Hudson and upper Bruckner.
Throgs Neck, along with adjoining Country Club, Edgewater Park, Spencer Estates and Pelham Bay, is mostly two-family and small one-family houses with occasional mid-rise apartment buildings. Morris Park and Pelham Gardens, which are divided by Pelham Parkway east of White Plains, are very similar. Tree-lined streets make the areas look very similar to eastern Queens, southeast Brooklyn and Staten Island. Several streets dead-end on the waterfront, which offers some nice views of Queens and Great Neck(!).
Riverdale (whose residents deny they even live in the Bronx by using the community name in their addresses a la Queens) has some extremely wealthy neighborhoods with huge mansions on winding, hilly streets. There are also mid-rises, high-rises and one-families in abundance. The riverfront is lined with some heavily wooded and tranquil parkland, which makes it easy to hear Amtrak and MN trains approaching from far away.
All of these areas can be explored with an unlimited Metrocard, a Bronx bus map and, above all, a detailed street map. You can get seriously lost- but you'll never feel threatened.
Howard: Thanks for the info. As I said in an earlier post I plan on taking two or three days when I get to New York to completely explore this borough.
Fred, you'd be very surprised that there are parts of the Bronx that are very pleasant and suburban [...]
Isn't that an oxymoron?
[Riverdale (whose residents deny they even live in the Bronx by using the community name in their addresses a la Queens) has some extremely wealthy neighborhoods with huge mansions on winding, hilly streets. There are also mid-rises, high-rises and one-families in abundance. The riverfront is lined with some heavily wooded and tranquil parkland, which makes it easy to hear Amtrak and MN trains approaching from far away.]
You should have been in Riverdale back in March 1989.... A major bus service restructuring took effect: the Bx7 went down to 168th Street; a new Bx20 shuttle started running to 207th Street; and they no longer had the M100!! By-and-large, Riverdale-ites resented that very rude reminder that they weren't part of Manhattan.
I have never been to Throgg's neck Jeff. Isn't that strange? I will have to take a bigger tour of the Bronx since I really know less about that place than the other main borughs. I hope I don't get lynched.
I don't think that you have to worry about getting lynched in Throgg's Neck since it is almost all white. Throgg's Neck is one of the most interesting communities in the Bronx.
#3 West End Jeff
Was it not "White People" who were known for carrying out a lynching?
I believe that you're correct in that statement.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff: Since most of the subtalkers are white, it is exactly those who live in the Bronx that I am worried about. I said it tongue-in-cheek, but if you remember correctly some Bronxites took umbridge at my remarks about the Bronx some time back. It got his from all angles by a half-dozen people. I will have to be on my best behavior.
If you behave yourself you have nothing to worry about. Enjoy.
-Stef
Geez ... you're gonna get the boy killed ... only the CRAZIEST sum'bitch on the car gets the seat. :)
He's quite safe rest assured, but I have eyes watching him and ears will be listening for his footsteps.....
And I'm quite crazy.
-Stef
Heh. Once I learned you was a Bronx boy, I wasn't worried in da least. Nothing like having Brooklyn meat on our streets though. Heh.
Hmmmmmm. Fresh meat!!!! I love it. He'll need mass transit to get around (on topic). He'll need the 6 Train if he goes to City Island.
-Stef
Maybe we can allocate the "money train" armored redbird to ferry the boy around ... put him on exhibit at the reptile house, then off to Hub 149 ... hell, I'll come down for THIS event. Heh.
Lol!!!!!!
-Stef
Yeah ... we'll sign that puppy up as an "N" ... he'll never know the difference. Yeah, that's the ticket!
I'll have to change all that station signage.... Uh oh, he's here....
-Stef
I just wonder what it would be like if you guys were my enemies.
If we can make alliances with Afghanistan Bananastan, I'm sure we can work it out with Brooklyn. How much ya got in that wallet? :)
You'd be in trouble, but really I'm more interested in railfanning Redbirds and R-142s.
-Stef
Did you hear your pal Selkirk? He was actually blackmailing me into giving him a bribe so as not to ruin my trip. What's he gonna' do, inform the populace that I'm in the neighborhood when I hit town. I'll tell you this, I'm coming with plenty of backup.
After that statement I believe I could be in real trouble. Keep that maniac away from me Stef.
I promise to protect you.
-Stef
Feh ... we'll meet at Fordham in leathers ... I've got SeVeN and the concourse writers ... we'll give Unca Fred a tour of Sedgewick and Andersen, the abandoned Polo Grounds shuffle station ... boy don't know what he's getting hisself into. :)
Just tell me this Selkirk ole' buddy, can I turn my back on you or do I take my life in my own hands if I do. Remember Stef has promised to protect me from the aliens I run into, but I have no clue about your behavior. That's why when I get there, I'm bringing Bob, Jeff, Steve, Doug, and maybe even Thurston. Can't have enough protection with a nut like you around. Don't hibernate over the winter.
Hahaha ... Nah, you're safe ... just step away from the foamer glass and we be cool. As to your backups though, I'd run a background check. I can identify three that'll side with me and if you DARE 'dis Branford, we'll ALL turn on ya. Heh.
I agree with you that #4 Sea Beach Fred is safe in the Bronx.
#3 West End Jeff
Hey Jeff, read their other posts. I'm not so sure I'm safe there unless I take some backup.
You're safe in Throgg's Neck since it is all white. The Bronx is much better than it used to be.
#3 West End Jeff
Is there an implication here that if you're NOT white, it ain't safe? Just a matter of being on your toes at all times. I'd beware of the white folks myself. :)
Good point. Even in the safest place, all hell can break loose.
-Stef
Had a wonderful ride on the Franklin shuttle ... got a dose of the willies at Stillwell standing near the Dubya ... go figger. :)
You're probably right making that statement but, the Bronx is safer than it used to be.
#3 West End Jeff
Agreed! Thank God for the NYPD.
-Stef
Yes, but wherever Selkirk plants his bloody hands things get unsafe very quickly. I am not turning my back on that guy, friend or no friend. He's really given me the woolies.
Who him? He's harmless.
-Stef
WOOLIES? You'd BETTER bring yer woolies, buddy ... gets cold up on the mainland this time of year. You'll freeze your SeaBits off on Bronx els. Bustini bustini ...
[He's really given me the woolies.]
Fred, isn't that supposed to be the 'willies'. The woolies is something you get when you hang around too many sheep.....;-D
BMTman
Once again Doug, you are right and I stand corrected. Do you know that Selkirk personally? I have never met him, but we've become buddies on Subtalk but, man, that guy is strange, real strange. I wonder what makes the guy tick but I have to admit I like his sense of humor even if it's a little perverted. BTW, how did that railfan trip go this past Monday?
I don't know Selkirk personally, but I have had a chance to meet Rochester and Buffalo and we're since become good friends. I do know a Kev though who seems to be wrapped as tightly as I am...;-D
Selkirk is only as strange as the rest of us (although some of us are stranger than others).
Hey, BTW, perverted humor is sometimes the best humor....;-D
STRAGE
I was on part of it and so I rode the IRT leg of it on the #5 from Grand Central to Dyre Ave. on a train of "Redbirds". Then we took a train of "Redbirds" on the #5 back to E.180th and then changed to a #2 which happened to have been a train of R-142s. The automatic announcements weren't working properly on this train sometimes. Other than that the R-142s are nice cars overall.
#3 West End Jeff
[I'd beware of the white folks myself. :) ]
Particularly if they're foamers and post at SubTalk....LOL!!!
Hey!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Selkirk was just to dumb to understand it, so he made a big joke about it. I got to hand it to him, though, he is dumb like a fox.
That was the basis of the cautionary ... heh. SeaBits Fred in DA Bronx? 'nuff said. :)
There has been a reference to race in this topic and I don't know how the hell it got there. I started the post and my point was that a lot of Bronxites were once after my ass and if might be tough sledding if I showed my face there without backup. It was all said tongue in cheek and then someone, I don't know who, says there are a lot of good white areas that are safe. Who the hell cares about that? I never said I never felt safe there or anywhere, in fact, I have had good experiences with all the people I've run into in New York. Again, let me state t hat the only worry I have is that a few of the Bronx boys who still are ticked off for what I said a year ago might give me a cold reception when I get there. Nothing, and I mean nothing has to do with race, color, religion, or any of that nonsense.
What's always been particularly amusing about the Bronx is that it got over its racism in the early 60's when all of us who lived there realized we were all on the same leaky boat. So among us that grew up there, race is meaningless ... it's getting them Brooklyn boys that's EVERYTHING. Heh.
Yeah I aw the comment and I'm sure he didn't mean it the way it came out in print ... but the Bronx was a unique social experiment once the "greaser" days had gotten all and done with. Everyone saw more than enough stupidity during those years and became too well to play anymore. That's one of the things about the Bronx that I really liked. Only wish that they'd taught the mental defectives how to aim when they shot off a rooftop - if I'd had more confidence in people's ability to hit what they aim at, I'd probably STILL be living there. :)
LOL!!!
I resemble that remark.:-)
Not to worry, buddy ... Bronx kids always take good care of their guests ... the borough's whole purpose is to hoard R142's and keep the mainland free of Manhattanites. D train runs on its schedule and route for good reasons into the heavily armed nation of Norwood. :)
The Bronx loves my R142s....and they now leave their scratchitti on the fibreglas seating. Car desk had me on free time the other day....to buff out the heiroglyphs. One seat: $ 1050. CI Peter
Yow ... for $1050, we could ride on barcoloungers ...
But only 99 cents worth of nail polish would have fixed a problem before Ivan Ivanovich sanded and buffed the site down to the base. CI Peter
Geez ... you've been with the TA too long already ... I didn't start wearing nail polish until after a month as a motorman. Made it all the way through being a conductor without once wearing lipstick. I tell ya, the TA's gone straight to hell if the crossdressing's begun so early in your career. Snycker ...
Well I don't even work for the TA and I wear nail polish sometimes ;)
Some cheap nail polish could have filled in the scratchitti for a buck...I don't know the end of the problem. 'Colour through' polycarbonate would have been much better than hand layered fibreglas but what can you expect for a cheap 1.4 Million Dollars. CI Peter
Then some wag would come along with some nail polish remover...
CHEAP!!!! 1.4 Million?! How much would you rather spend on a heavy-rail/subway car????? (just out of curiosity)
Stuart, RLine86Man
You have misread my thoughts.....that kind of money is far too much for just one 'A' car. One thousand bucks for just one hand-layered fibreglas seat unit is......... OK, I like my new job! I cannot understand this mess...how much would a molded color through polycarbonate seat unit cost??? So let the mutants sit on their sratchittied seating....spend the money on me instead. The TA got a 'Pandoras Boxfull' of wonders for Primo Bucks that will keep a lot of people employed for at least a decade. 600 Gs would have gotten one independent car that would replace one Redbird.
You'd be a natural then. Heh. Only precaution is NEVER wear a nose ring on TA property ... TSS' WILL use it. :)
Ouch! No, I'm scared of piercings. It's one of my phobias. Can't do injections either. But I love make up &c... I think it comes naturally with the showmanship and the luvvieness!
Heh. Not to worry, too old to have holes in my body. In fact I decided to move upstate after collecting a hole from a moron on a rooftop who couldn't aim for the proper target. :)
ROTFLMAO
I'm not Jewish anymore but here's a phrase that I STILL use: OY VAY?!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm going to FREEDOM LAND!!!!!!!!!!!
FREEDOMLAND! One of my FAVORITES!
For everyone not around long enough to have even heard of it, spend a little while here for your own amusement:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robfriedman/
Most of Freedomland ended up elsewhere ...
I'm Catholic and use OI VAY anyway!:-)
So do I :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yeah...umm....like a garrison of heavily armed Navy SEALS :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
P.S.: No way those SEALS last 10 minutes in Yankee territory :-D
They're on exhibit at the Bronx Zoo ... :)
As what????? Spare ribs for the lions??? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Nah, the lions get REAL meat ... ex Enron managers and leftovers from layups at Jerome yard. :)
But I'd bet that the Enron managers that the lions are feeding on are full of sh-t remains and taste WAY too salty, since they were bloodsuckers :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm sure now that the FBI has Enron surrounded (gee, same mistake as Afghanistan, waiting until they'd already scattered to seal off the exits) I'm sure there'll be plenty of bureaucrats for dinner once the Blackwater investigations get underway. Lemme see now ... how do we make this train relevant ... maybe they'll be RAILROADED ...
*lmao* Good one, man, very good one :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Fred: I can't understand why you are worried about visting The Bronx?
Considering that you live on the wrong side of the San Andreas Fault you court danger everyday. Vist The Bronx and we will treat you as good as the Yanks treated the Dodgers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's what I'm afraid of. I said an uncomplimentary think about the South Bronx some time back and boy did I get it from all quarter. I think a little of that residue still sticks to me.
Ya know ... they DO make "angel soft" tissue to wipe that off with. :)
I think that you'll be reasonably safe in the Bronx. Is isn't as crime ridden as it used to be. There will always be a few spots where you'll have to be careful.
#3 West End Jeff
Don't you think this statement smacks of racism at the worst and ignorance at the very least?
Coney Island is the best or the Rockaways on an unpleasantly hot day.
No, an air conditioned room -- or (ObSubTalk) subway car -- is the best on an unpleasantly hot day. I've never understood why so many people flock to an outdoor area with no shade on hot days.
My last time at the Rockaways, it was a beautiful April day. The beach was more crowded than usual: one family was out, enjoying the weather.
No, an air conditioned room -- or (ObSubTalk) subway car -- is the best on an unpleasantly hot day.
You can't go wrong with an R-32!
The old drop sash storm door windows on the R-21/22s weren't a bad option on a hot July day. Of course the trains never got close to the beach, but it did provide a pretty good breeze coming home from a Yanks game at the front of a No. 4 train.
well ... and of course Krooklyn and Queens is part of Long ... ummm ... Island .
I love when people in Brooklyn or Queens say, "I'm going TO Long Island......" DUH, you are already ON Long Island.......
Hahahahahahahaha! Bravo! :)
Don't feel bad though ... I live up near Smallbany (where legislators frollick and we all slave on da Paturkey farm - after all, boy's name is GEORGE ... *ELMER* ... PATAKI ... 'nuff said, "boy puts the 'goober' back in Gubernatorial" ... folks in da chitty think anything north of Tuckahoe Avenue in YANKERS is frigging CANADA ... and yet, they don't get the sensation of being surrounded by (Sam Kinnison here) ... ***WATER***!!! ... moo. :)
Selkirk: Do not tell me you want to return to the days of Mario Mr Taxes Cuomo. I hear his son is running but you can't be serious about being a Cuomo fan. I tingle with shame that he is an Italian-American. I wish I could palm him off on the Irish, or the Poles, or the Jews, or the Puerto Ricans---anybody.
How did Padre Cuomo and his idiot son get into this? :)
Just because we think our Governor Goober is a joke doesn't mean that we've gone liber-rail ... and as far as our republican and taxes, well ... 39 cents more for butts and beer, wine and sangria are going up as well along with a whole bunch more "hidden taxes" ... republican senate, democratic assembly ... do as we SAY, not as we do I s'pose.
Hey Selkirk: Do you know that I got an E-Mail from someone in reaction to my last post following the one you sent. He called me an ethnic-bigot since I said I was ashamed of Cuomo being a Dago like me. What the hell was that guy smoking? Doesn't he know that I'm one of the Italian stallions? Hey bro, we got some strange people around here, and they make even us look normal.
Heh. Well, I *worked* for the Padre so I can throw all the bricks I want. Paturkey fired me and killed two agencies on me, so they can BOTH go to hell. :)
And DO find out what your buddy there's smoking and pass it over this way. Only drug tests on MY railroad involve determining if you've had enough. Heh. Just kidding ...
I *was* hoping that we'd have Carl McCall - I've worked with him over the years and being an economist like Bloomberg, he'd be JUST what this state needs. Of course, between Paturkey and the Queens democratic club (Judy Hope, Mark Green) pushing Padre junior, we're screwed either way ... I guess I should keep the politics off here though ... dammit Fred ... why do we always take the damned yellow/yellow for food, politics and baseball? :)
Threaten to write in Guiliani's name for governor. Just the threat will put the fear of Gawd into Pataki.
No, Brooklyn and Queens are part of ROYAL Island.
Or even Kings and Queens...
Perhaps you are unaware, but the borough of Brooklyn happens to be coterminous with Kings County (and the borough of Queens happens to be coterminous with Queens County) -- hence Pig's name for the collective entity.
Yeah, tell like it is, Pigs of Royal Island.
People who have lived in Brooklyn or Queens all their lives deny they live on Long Island: "Oh, no, Long Island is Nassau and Suffolk!" Problem is, there's GEOGRAPHIC Long Island, which entails the two counties in New York City and the two suburban counties. Then there's the 'psychological' Long Island, which is Nassau and Suffolk only.
I once saw a T-shirt labeled "Long Island" that showed a detailed map of Nassau and Suffolk ONLY. The Queens-Nassau line was neatly delineated on the left. All I could think was how misled the makers of the shirt were- or how they only considered the 'psychological' Island made famous by Jones Beach, the Hamptons, the LIRR, the Islanders, strip malls, horrendous traffic jams, sky-high property taxes, the Barones, Amy Fisher, Joel Rifkin, Al D'Amato, et al.
Some people don't think Atlantic City is in New Jersey, either. No oil refineries-
Part of Manhattan is on the mainland. It even has a subway stop.
Heh. "reclaimed annexed mainland" is kinda cheating, but I'll give it to ya. For anyone who doesn't know the loophole, it's Marble Hill ...
The Bronx/Marble Hill border is an old creek. 'Manhattan Island' was separated from what became the Bronx by marshy tidelands. Then they came along and dredged a canal, one that got the name 'Harlem River'.
Governer's Island, while always a part of NY County, was once attached to Brooklyn at low tide, but then they dredged Buttermilk Channel.
Yep................Gov's Island is now "owned" by the USCG for their barracks and NY Regional H.Q............and is passed on BOTH sides by ferry boats-------------heading north to Whitehall Teminal: on the left (starboard if on the boat) by the STATEN ISLAND ferry, and on the right (port if on the boat) by the newly (as of 9/17) established BROOKLYN ferry [which I take everyday now]
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yep................Gov's Island is now "owned" by the USCG for their barracks and NY Regional H.Q............and is passed on BOTH sides by ferry boats-------------heading north to Whitehall Teminal: on the left (starboard if on the boat) by the STATEN ISLAND ferry, and on the right (port if on the boat) by the newly (as of 9/17) established BROOKLYN ferry [which I take everyday now]
The Coast Guard still controls Governor's Island but scarcely uses it for anything. Most or all of the facilities once located there were relocated to Atlantic City several years ago. I believe the high cost of operating ferries was the main reason for the move. There probably aren't any USCG personnel on the island any more except for some maintenance and security people.
Or the USCG post out in Jamaica Bay (I'm not sure if that's on the Bennett Field side or on the Breezy Point part) ...........if that's still there, too.............
Stuart, RLine86Man
These obsolete government reservations create serious temptations. I bet Junior Trump would love to take it off the Coast Guard's hands. You also wonder what will eventually happen to Fort Hamilton.
I forget what happened to Fort Totten. Fort Wadsworth became a toll plaza.
Queens was, of course, a natural extension of BMT service, as shown with the Jamaica and Fulton Els. And of course the BMT also squatted on the IRT's Astoria and Flushing lines, which were Queens lines from inception.
That said, it's a shame that there was no company or division that made Queens their first priority. The Queens IRTs came long after the Bronx-favoring mailines, and had only incidental track connections to them which are now long severed. And as with the Brooklyn IRT the Queens IRT essentially consisted of only one branching line. The BMTs at best only extended to Queens after a long journey through Brooklyn, and on the Myrtle and Fulton lines died very shortly after entering Queens. Even the IND only built one line in the "First System" for expressly for Queens, though clearly the "Second System" had a lot more in store 'ere being nipped in the bud.
:-) Andrew
If the IND had gotten it's second system, Queens would have had some amaizing and full service!
They really did screw Queens didn't they. Imagine selling us native Queensians that short. Let them realize we are the largest borough, have the most diversity, and we have the future Baseball World Champion Mets in our borough. "Our" is somewhat a play on words since I no longer live in New York, but Queens rules, and certainly not the Bronx.
I love Queens. I grew up here, and have lived here for most of my life. I have lived in Ridgewood, Astoria, and now, Forest Hills. I will keep moving eastward, until Queens becomes uninhabitable by decent citizens like myself. That's when I'll finally give up, and move out like so many have. Sometimes it saddens me to live just blocks from the south end of Flushing Meadows park, seeing it everyday, and knowing how great it once was. Any other city would've maintained it, and benefitted from its'presense. Now it's just a weed covered soccer field, with broken glass all over the place.
Don't worry, Helen Marshall will take care it.
N Bwy
Until the 59th St. Bridge was built, Queens was **rural**. Brooklyn and the Bronx, by comparison, were considerably more developed.
They just stopped building subways when Queens caught up.
As for the statement "we are the largest borough, have the most diversity", Brooklyn is more populous, and is just as diverse. And if the Mets or Yankees are to get a new stadium, I think they'd do better to put one or the other over the Coney Island yards.
Mark: You are beautiful. That's it. Put one of the teams in Brooklyn. That would be all time, Brooklyn back in the big leagues. But it would have to be the Mets. I could not imagine in my wildest dreams the Yankees playing there. I would even concede Queens losing the team if Brooklyn got it. You caught my imagination. Good job.
I would like the Yankees in New Jersey. Why? Because I don"t like the Yanks, not one bit.
You don't like the Yankees eh? Then why tell me? You like preaching to the choir? You have no idea what disliking the Yankees is unless you get to hear some of my diatribes. If your wife is present, you would have to send her out of the room. But Peppertree, you have just gained an ally.
I was not old enough in 1962 to like baseball but ever since I was old enough (1968) I have been a die hard Mets fan.
The second game I went to at Shea, Jerry Koosman hit a homer into the leftfield bullpen.
Can you answer my Sea Beach question previously posted?
Which question was that? Fire away and I'll see if I can answer it.
Koosman was known as anything but a good hitting pitcher in his early years. He set an all-time record for striking out as a pitcher in 1968 when he whiffed 62 times. Maury Allen said Koosman swung like a girl, and I wouldn't argue. IIRC Al Weis also homered in that game, off Cecil Upshaw of the Braves. Gil Hodges ordered champagne for his sluggers after that game. Weis came close to hitting a second home run in that game, batting lefthanded. He hit the one homer batting righthanded (Weis was a switch hitter through 1968, then hit only righthanded after that).
Koosman eventually became a pretty good hitting pitcher. Tom Seaver OTOH was a good hitter right from the start; he wound up hitting 13 home runs during his career, 3 in 1972 alone.
The first game I ever went to was a day game, I think Saturday, and Juan Marichal pitched for the Giants (those former New Yorkers.) I think that the Giants won. That was probably May, 1968 or whenever the Giants were in town.
I come from a family of old Brooklyn Dodger fans originally from Park Slope but by then Sheepsaid Bay.
Giants were in town Memorial Day weekend of 1968 -- my friend's dad had an extra ticket that day and ended up being busted by the cops for scalping, which made that trip a little more memorable than your average visit to Shea. They had to have come in again sometime later in the season, but since I didn't have to find my own way to my seat for that series, I can't help you with the dates there :-)
The Giants were also in town for the 1968 home opener. Jerry Koosman started and the next thing he knew, the bases were loaded with nobody out, and Willie Mays was up. Koosman struck out Mays and got the next two batters out as well, and won, 3-0.
I started following the Mets in 1968 and really got into them in 1969. I remember wanting to go to Helmet Day in '68 (they apparently had a second Helmet Day that year), but my mother had to have surgery and my father had more pressing concerns (understandable). I did go to Helmet Day in 1971. Still have the helmet, too.
And we just traded for Jeromy Burnitz. He's good for about 30 homers and 100 RBI's. We know have the team to win the pennant and maybe the World Series. I'll tell you this. If it is a Yankee-Mets World Series this year, there is no way I'm going to see this on TV.
I don't want Queens to lose its team. The Mets are a part of Queens just as much as the Yankees are a part of The Bronx. I dare the Yanks to move to NJ! Watch them lose their entire fanbase!
:-) Andrew
Nonsense, Mr. K. The Yanks would not only not lose their fan base, the fanatics, like human flotsam, would follow them like the Pied Piper had the rats follow him. Look at the football Giants and Jets. They are NOT New York teams but the fans pretend they are and flock to seem them like salesmen flock to see whores at a class hotel when on a sales convention. No, the fans would still follow.
Though what the Yanks moving to New Jersey could do is spark a move among the New York delegation (already supported by many members of Congress elsewhere) to repeal baseball's antitrust exemption. Do that, and it would open up NYC to any of the struggling owners from one of the small market teams to jump in and relocated their franchise (and as the NFL found out with Al Davis, challenging a move without an antitrust rule in place can be very costly for the league and its other owners).
If Bud Selig and the other boys feared the exemption would be scuttled by a Yanks' move across the Hudson, they'd tie George to the support columns of the el on River Avenue to keep him in the Bronx...
That would be one time when I would back Selig. I may despise the Yankees, but the Yankees belong in New York---not New Jersey, Connecticut, or upstate.
Hey ... maybe Brooklyn can pick up the team from Enron! :)
Enron doesn't own the team, just the stadium name. A trucking company bigwig who lives to the northwest of Houston (he supplies Wal-Mart with a lot of their rolling stock) owns the Astros. But if anyone's got a spare $75 millior or so, there's a stadium on the south-center side of downtown Houston that's just waiting for your name to go up on the lighted signs (and to keep it rail related, left field is part of the old Houston SoPac station....)
The Yankees and New Jersey deserve each other. I think you can come up with the reasons why.
As to your question from a previous response, please refresh my memory. Does it have to do with express tracks rehabbed on the Sea Beach in Brooklyn?
They just stopped building subways when Queens caught up.
Stupid question time... why?
As Queens was building people were relying on cars more and more, and they thought at the time that cars were the way of the future and subways old fashioned. Queens would have had alot more subways if it had started developing at the same time as the Bronx and Brookyn. Now between NIMBYS and lack of funds it's almost impossible to get things built anymore.
Thank you, Mr. Robert Moses, once again.
I have seen pictures of sparseness and emptiness around the Flushing Line El in the 1920's. No one lived around it at first. But by the 1930's (ten years later) it looks similar to the way it looks now.
There were no organized lobbying for subways to Queens in the 1920"s as Queens was similar to the suburbs in many ways.
If you look at some of the els being built in the Bronx, they also were built through farmland. It's a shame it never cought on in Queens. We have been paying for it ever since.
Queens was similar to the suburbs in many ways.
The key word is "was". Queens is not like Nassau County at all now. With very few exceptions, even the most suburban Queens neighborhoods are denser and more "neighborhood-like" than most Long Island communities. I betcha most Eastern Queens folk (including those I've talked to) would welcome subway extensions.
:-) Andrew
I don't buy this. Most of the lines in Queens pre IND were built in what was basically farmland or sparsly populated homesteads. I have pictures of Liberty Ave as the el was being constructed in 1915. It was barren pasture. Ditto with the Flushing line east of Woodside. Jamaica Ave. as we know it didn't come into existance until AFTER the el was built. Queens, like the Bronx, experienced it's population after rapid transit was built, not before.
Then why didn't the companies run more els into Queens like they did in the Bronx and Brooklyn. The only els in Queens were the Flushing and Astoria. The Lefferts end, the end of the Jamaica, and the end of the Myrtle were basically short extentions of their Brooklyn els. Jamaica had more of a run in Queens than the others, but that is really the only one. Brooklyn and Bronx had almost a spider web of els. Why was Queens neglected then?
Maybe Queens was neglected because it was assumed back then that it would be a suburb, not part of the city. The LIRR had a big head start, with many local stations which, today, are not in use.
That is true the LIRR had extensive Queens routes in addition to the few remaining ones. The Lower Montauk Branch for one. I guess it was assumed that the subway was not needed because the LIRR did serve areas not served by subways. The lower montauk Branch would be a great line for subway conversion, along with the unused portion of the Rockaway line. Those areas of Queens have no rail service.
could it be that the money for expansion was no longer there?
The IRT was nearly bankrupt when they finished building their system by 1920. The BMT was just recovering from Malbone St. and a had a hostile mayor to deal with.
The pressures to 'save the fare' were intense back then too. The City kept both the IRT and BMT at barely break-even. The 5¢ fare was unrealistic. Had it been allowed to go up to 10¢ (perhaps $2.00 in present money), the two would have been robustly profitable, and expansion would have continued.
They might have, had the city not obstructed further growth. Getting an el built after 1920 was almost impossible.
>>> Most of the lines in Queens pre IND were built in what was basically farmland or sparsly populated homesteads. <<<
Although built through farmland, they were built to the populated areas of Flushing and Astoria. They were not just set down in the wilderness with the idea that if you build it they will come.
Tom
Also, remember that access to Queens was far more difficult before 1934, since the only non-ferry routes there were via the Queensboro Bridge and the BMT and IRT (Flushing and Second Ave.) lines and the LIRR. Before the Triborough, Queens Midtown Tunnel and the IND, virtually all the "on demand" entry to Queens centered around Bridge Plaza, while other locations relied on the unreliable East River ferry system.
In contrast, all three bridge connections between Brooklyn and Manhattan were already in place, which included 14 subway and elevated tracks between the two boroughs -- the same number as there are today if you take away the two under-construction Manny B tracks and the Brooklyn Bridge el tracks and substitute the Cranberry and Rutgers IND tunnels. That made access to Brooklyn far easier than access to Queens during the first 3 1/2 decades of the 20th Century.
True, but on the other hand, I've seen pictures of Lefferts Ave when it was brand new in 1916, and it looked like a station suspended in the middle of nowhere.
I don't buy this. Most of the lines in Queens pre IND were built in what was basically farmland or sparsly populated homesteads. I have pictures of Liberty Ave as the el was being constructed in 1915. It was barren pasture. Ditto with the Flushing line east of Woodside. Jamaica Ave. as we know it didn't come into existance until AFTER the el was built. Queens, like the Bronx, experienced it's population growth after rapid transit was built, not before.
In both Brooklyn and the Bronx, subway lines extend to the edge. With the exception of the Rockaway line reclaimed from the LIRR, the Queens subway lines do not do this.
There's only so far one would want to go through farmland, at some point you leave off an extension for later.
True. I'm sure if the BMT was able, they'd have extended down Liberty Ave, or down Roosevelt Ave.
Bronx is an easy extension for Manhattan because the Harlem River is narrow.
Brooklyn itself was already a formidable development, as it was close to Downtown Manhattan and thus a post for all travel from New York to points on Long Island. Brooklyn was an independent city that already had an elevated network at the time of consolidation in 1898, thus it had a headstart in development relative to Queens.
I should also point out that the IRT was very Manhattan and Bronx-centric. Their original line extended into poorly developed parts of Manhattan and Bronx, but it's Brooklyn extension - opened in 1908 - was a short branch that only served a few points downtown to the LIRR terminal. They didn't build a Queens line until 1915.
If it wasn't for the BMT, Brooklyn would be woefully underserved. There was no QMT because Queens was less developed in those years.
The IND on the other hand came out when Queens development was more of a priority. Queens had more open development space that the other three boroughs and more area was underserved. Unfortunately, the IND wasted money building replacements for perfectly good els. The only line it has that was a completely new line was the Queens Boulevard line. That alone makes the IND worthwile, but they would have been better off building some of the proposed Second System lines before such wasteful projects like the 6th Avenue or Fulton Street lines.
Queens has had more World Champs than Brooklyn but not more National League pennants.
Let's see: 2 World Series championships for the Mets and one for the Brooklyn Dodgers vs. 4 pennants for the Mets and 9 (by my count) for the Dodgers.
On the money Steve. You're a great baseball fan. Maybe they can put one of us in the Commissioner's office because lame brain Selig needs all the help he can get.
But the Dodgers (of Brooklyn) are finished counting. The Mets have time to catch up and I hope that they do.
If Brooklyn had a National League team, would you abandon the METS?
Nah, I've been a Mets fan for too long - 34 years and counting. Heck, I've been a Colorado resident for 21 years now and still root for New York teams. I was happy for the Broncos when they won back-to-back Super Bowls, but I rooted for the Giants in SB XXI. And while I do occasionally root for the Rockies, I will never, ever root against the Mets.
You better not ever root against the Mets because if you do you make an adversary of me and your ass is grass and I become the lawnmower.
You need not worry. I'm a Mets fan for life. Speaking of lawn mowers, I lost a couple of fingertips to one once.
Well, remember that Queens was later to develop than Manhattan, Brooklyn or The Bronx. That may account for its seeming neglect during the early years of subway construction. And note also that the LIRR functioned more or less as the borough's main rapid transit system for many years.
Had the IND been completly built, the IND would be able to claim that they were the "system" to serve Queens, as almost every neighborhood would have some kind of subway service.
I do not see the 2nd Av line giving any serious relief to the Lex unless/until it is extended into the Bronx, taking over existing service and/or offering essentially cross-platform transfers.
I disagree strongly. Even if not a single Bronx rider transferred to the 2nd Avenue line, enough Upper East Siders who now ride the 6 (and, to a lesser extent, the 4/5) would use the new line to make a very big difference. I wouldn't be surprised if over half the load on a typical 6 train between 125 and 42 boards south of 125.
Bronx service would be great, but even a stubway would be a major improvement over the present.
Upper East Siders who now ride the 6 (and, to a lesser extent, the 4/5)
Actually, I don't think the 4/5 is "lesser" at all. Back when I lived on the UES, the 4/5 platform at 86th was a nightmare. Some people would walk half a mile or more rather than get onto the 6 and then transfer at GCT. And remember, the 4/5 goes directly to Wall Street whereas the 6 ends at Brooklyn Bridge, so financial district workers taking the 6 had to change no matter what.
I think the crushing is about equal between the 6 and the 4/5.
Oh, I'm not denying that the 4/5 is crowded, and I'm not denying that lots of folks board the 4/5 at 86. But at the local stops, everyone boards the 6, while at 125, much of the 6's passenger load from the Bronx transfers to the 4/5.
My point is that, even if nobody transferred to an intraborough 2nd Avenue line at 125, it would pick up many of those who now fill up the 6. It would also take a few riders off the 4/5, specifically some of those who board at 86, but the 4/5 would still have its crowds from the Bronx (including those transferring from the 6).
I agree. Anyone who thinks that a 2nd Ave train from 125th wouldn't relieve the Lex needs to try to get on any southbound train (4/5/6) at 86th in the morning rush.
"That's why a perpendicular terminus along 125th form Park to Lex is better. It's easier to transfer from the Lex if the 2d Ave crosses under it . Also, you'd get direct transfers from Metro-North, and an easier, underground transfer from MN to the Lex."
This is what I will prefer too.. but this plan does not offer a bronx option unless they have a second avenue line go straight up to the bronx.
N Broadway Line
They could always extend the line up second ave., leaving the Lex-125th stop as an alternate terminus.
What I understand, the reason why they choose 125th and Lexington Avenue, is probably because it would be cheaper to send the train to the Bronx from here (lex 125th Street) than from 2nd Avenue.
ohhhh.. Just a little secret b/t you and me, I would love to see the N extended to the Bronx from Astoria. But we all know this isn't possible for two reason: LaGuardia Airport and the Nimby in the area.. And the N really doesn't offer that many options... except the #7... THANK GOD!
N Bwy
A really kinky extension of the Astoria line would be to send it back across the river (under Hell Gate) via Randall's Island and thence either to 2nd Av and parts north via 106th, or directly north into the Bronx.
"A really kinky extension of the Astoria line would be to send it back across the river (under Hell Gate) via Randall's Island and thence either to 2nd Av and parts north via 106th, or directly north into the Bronx."
I prefer a direct route to the Bronx, possibly replacing the #5 Dyre Avenue Line.
N Bwy
But wouldn't it be harder to send the 2nd Avenue Line into the Bronx from 125th and Lex? If 2nd Avenue is extended north from 125th and 2nd, it simply goes directly north into the Bronx and it can turn east at 138th Street to take over Pelham Line service or to run alongside Amtrak on the NE Corridor.
But if the 2nd Avenue line is extended north from 125th and Lex, in order for it to access the Bronx, it would have to either run under the 4/5/6 line or it would have to run under MN or continue west along 125th Street and turn north along Madison or 5th Avenues. And once in the Bronx, where would it go from there?
The idea of the Lex-125th station is that the Second Ave. line would eventually take over the Pelham Bay line from the 6, which would then terminate at 125th.
I'm not so hot on the idea, because the zig-zag nature of the route -- going west on 138th St. in the Bronx, then under the Harlem River and back east on 125th and then west again on 63rd St. (assuming the stubway section is built first) means that a lot of Pelham Bay Riders may opt for a transfer to a more direct express train at 125th (assuming the transfer isn't a big pain in the butt to accomplish). The plan would mean far less crowding on the No. 6 for Manhattan local passengers, but it could mean more crowding on the 4/5.
Maybe a better Bronx routing would for 2nd Avenue to take over the Jerome Avenue line from the 4. That would eliminate some of the zig-zag nature of the Bronx routing. However, the 2nd Avenue line would have to be shoehorned in, either running next to or below the Lex and would have to continue running under the 4/5 line until north of 149th Street and rise up into place to take over Jerome Avenue service. That could present a real challenge, at least from an engineering standpoint. Also, something would have to replace the 4 in Brooklyn (the 6, maybe).
"I'm not so hot on the idea, because the zig-zag nature of the route -- going west on 138th St. in the Bronx, then under the Harlem River and back east on 125th and then west again on 63rd St. (assuming the stubway section is built first) means that a lot of Pelham Bay Riders may opt for a transfer to a more direct express train at 125th (assuming the transfer isn't a big pain in the butt to accomplish). The plan would mean far less crowding on the No. 6 for Manhattan local passengers, but it could mean more crowding on the 4/5."
It does seem likely. That's why I prefer a crosstown route along 125th Street, and a route going straight up 2nd Avenue into the Bronx. Then these same connections can be accomplished at Southern Blvd w/ the #6 and Westchester Avenue w/ the 4/5 via 3rd Avenue.. I also support the idea of using the B/W railroad route into Dyre Avenue.
N Bwy
The idea of the Lex-125th station is that the Second Ave. line would eventually take over the Pelham Bay line from the 6, which would then terminate at 125th.
First, I'd always heard it was the Dyre Avenue line (old NY&W) that was supposed to be connected. Maybe I heard wrong? The Pelham Bay line would be far cleaner, since it's its own ROW breaking off even before the 138-Grand Concourse station.
Second, I'm having trouble with Peter D's track book understanding tunnel configurations where the IRT goes into the Bronx. He doesn't have a "Crossings" page for that stretch, at least in my 2nd edition. (Or are they all bridges, like the 1 train Broadway bridge? I don't remember passing under any other subway bridges on Metro North, so I gotta think they're tunnels.)
So I'm wondering what the uptown tunnels are called, analagous to downtown's Rutgers, Cranberry, Clark, Montague and Joralemon tunnels? There seem to be three: the 4/5/6 tunnel from 125 to 138-GC, the 2/5 tunnel from 135 to 149-GC and the B/D tunel from 155 to 161-Yankee Stadium.
The originial, original Second Ave. plan called for the connection to the Dyre Ave. line, which is one reason why Dyre was part of the B division for the first 15 years or so of its operation by NYTS. When the second version of the Second Ave. project was released by the MTA in the late 1960s, the Dyre link was out and the plan now was to hook the line up to the Pelham Bay line east of 138th St. and Third Ave., and presumably the No. 6 train would have terminated at that point.
That plan at least would have given the Second Ave. line its own tunnel into the Bronx. The new, new, new plan cuts that out and creates the zig-zag route to Lexington and 125th to allow the Second Ave. line to use that tunnel instead to get to the Bronx.
As far as the track layout goes, it's not that tough logistically, since the IRT local tracks both cross the Harlem River and enter the 125th St. station on the east (Second Ave.) side of the 4/5 express tracks, on two different levels. So hooking up the Second Ave. tracks would only be a matter of running the line across 125 and then turning it north again on the east side of Lexington Ave. (though as I said in aonther post, the Lex 125th St. station and the Second Ave. one would end up at least 1 1/2 blocks out of alignment, since the new station couldn't begin any further south than midway between 125th and 126th streets).
To terminate the 6 at 125th, the MTA would either have to build a connecting ramp between the upper and lower level tracks north of the station (and before the tracks would merge with the new Second Ave. line) or build a crossing switch just north of the 116th St. station, so trains could switch there and have access to both the upper and lower levels of the 125th St. station. The latter is probably easier to do, but would create a Bergen Street-like problem for passengers, who wouldn't know if the 6 was coming in on the upper or lower level.
"When the second version of the Second Ave. project was released by the MTA in the late 1960s, the Dyre link was out and the plan now was to hook the line up to the Pelham Bay line east of 138th St. and Third Ave., and presumably the No. 6 train would have terminated at that point."
No wonder the second avenue subway will never be a reality.. so many stupid ideas!
Taking over the #6 will not do anything for bronx riders. But will probably complicate things further. Like I said in previous post, the best solution is to create a crosstown 125th Street line... run a second avenue line straight up to the bronx from second avenue, possibly running on 3rd avenue and the former NY W railroad into Dyre Avenue..
The dyre avenue rout will solve the problem that the 2/5 merger face at 180th Street... and individuals will again have transportation in the central bronx. Above all, no longer will people have trouble connection to lines if their is a crosstown line along 125th Street.
The icing on the cake will be to bring the N into the bronx which will also go to dyre avenue via old NY W railroad.
N Bwy
Sending the 2nd Ave to Dyre confuses me. How can that be done if the 2nd Ave will be built to B standards. Yes it's easy to change the platforms on the Dyre Ave line to allow for wider trains, but doesn't the train have to use the White Plains line to 180 street to get to the Dyre line. Won't that mess things up for the 2 train going to 241 Wakefield? The new 2 Ave line and the 2 train can't both stop at all the stations between Manhattan and 180 St because they are different widths.
It would follow the New Haven r.o.w. (basically, following the routes of the Major Deegan and the Bruckner to intersection the X-Bronx and Bronx River express/park-ways). It's easy to get to the Dyre line at this point. The plan calls for another line to (apparently) continue along the New Haven tracks and thence into Co-op City; as an alternative to the last, it could easily take over the Pelham line from Southern Blvd. on.
All of this would appreciably relieve the Lex, but not as much as a 4-track line would.
The easiest way would be to have the 2nd avenue line is to swing over to where the old Third Avenue EL used to be run across White Plains Road into Co-op city.This you would have two lines going down the east side the new 2nd avenue line and the Dyre Avenue line, thus this would relieve overcrowding at Dyre Avenue, and service for residents of Co-op City, and it could help the Lexington Avenue Thru trains with a stop at Gun Hill Road, This was and pipe dream that I had for about 30 years or so,I dont think it would ever happen but to me this is the most feasible route.
Guess what? The plans for the Second Ave. line which were put in place in the late '60s included just what you wanted, but then came the fiscal crisis and everything went into the trash. I hope it comes up again, because it is very much needed.
The Dyre Avenue #5 line actually branches off the orignal White Plains line to get to Dyre Avenue from E180th Street, North. Also, the platforms was closed in to allow for the IRT cars to serve these stations. So if the "new" second avenue line serves this extension, the stations along this path (E180th Street north) will actually be restore to it's original station configurations.
This plan is much better than the #5 line, because it reduces the amount of time that it takes to switch in front of the #2 that is heading to White Plains Road. And, perhaps an express line could be created all the way to Gun Hill Road, or 238th Street.
The only problem would be the cross platform will be eliminated, causing passengers to do a cross station connection. But that's much better than crossing trains infront of each other which results in delays and crowded trains.
N Bwy
I actually prefer the idea of running the 2nd Avenue line to the bronx (via 2nd Avenue). I also will like to see an elevated line 3rd Avenue connecting the #6, than the 4/5 and possible go all the way to Fordam Plaza or as far as White Plains/Gun Hill Roads. Meanwhile (as you mentioned earlier), a route can be created via the old Boston and westchester railroad to Dyre Avenue taking over the #5 line.
N Broadway Line
If you build the 125/Lex/Park station, the question is if they will come.
Not enough to fill up a train, but enough to help relieve congestion on the 4/5/6. The following itniteraries would make it worthwhile to change at 125th:
- Bronx or Metro-North to 3rd Ave in the low 50s or to the UN area.
- Pelham Bay line to 6th/7th Ave midtown area.
The 86th St and 2nd Ave stop will also pull huge numbers of people away from 86th and Lex. 72nd and 2nd will draw people away from 77th and 68th and Lex.
Also, don't underestimate the number of people who pack onto the highly unreliable but yet very full 2nd Ave buses.
Everyone's also forgetting that the Stubway will bring people to the W. Side and downtown via 63rd and Bway.
If it were a four-track line, two tracks could run into the Bronx while the other two run across 125th Street (or the other way, to LGA).
Or there could be a BIG junction:
Local branches: 125 St to Broadway, under East River to LGA.
Express: Dyre, probably somewhere else as well.
I think Bloomberg should immediately cease and desist distributing tickets to the viewing platform at ground zero, and should restrict that platform to those who were immediately affected by the attack...the friends and loved ones of the deceased.
Get an ice cream, an I Love NY T shirt, and ground zero tickets at the Seaport. Yeah, right.
I also think that any discussion right now of how to rebuild the site is disrespectful of what happened. I'm not in favor of wallowing in misery forever. But this was the worst day in NYC and USA history. It can't be papered over and forgotten about.
I'm reminded of an incident I heard about following JFK's assassination. Jackie had his blood spattered all over her outfit. In the hours that followed, someone mentioned, discreetly, that she might like to change her dress. She refused, saying she wanted the world to know what was done.
I believe the world needs to be reminded of what was done at WTC...next week, next year, and a century from now.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I absolutely agree. I know how valuable the real estate is, but the site is not only a place of remembrance, but also a wartime graveyward, like Gettysburg, whether we like it or not.
It's only four months, we're still in mortal danger, but lots of people are ready to "get on with their lives."
"It's only four months, we're still in mortal danger, but lots of people are ready to "get on with their lives."
I see your point, Paul. But in some ways, people do need to move on with their lives. Obviously this will be a lot harder for those who lost people, and that is completely understandable. At the same time though, whenever major tragedies happen, all there is to do is learn from what happened, and try to "pick up the pieces" and begin to move on. I as well as millions of other Americans (especially those in the tri-state area) will never forget the horror which took place on 9/11. But at the same time, it is necessary to move on, because if we don't we simply "wallow" in pain, and thats not healthy. A new wtc w/ a memorial site will be built, and I don't see a reason to delay it...once the cleanup effort is complete. -Nick
I think that's a very exaggerated view of the situation. Your use of history is a littlew flawed too.
This is not Gettysberg. Pearl Harbor, maybe. Not Gettysberg.
"It's only four months, we're still in mortal danger, but lots of people are ready to "get on with their lives."
Good guess. Kids have to be fed, the mortgage has to be paid, and the electric bill keeps coming. And, on top of that, some posters on this site want to make sure the newly unemployed stay that way.
Exaggerated? Wow!
It's only four months, we're still in mortal danger, but lots of people are ready to "get on with their lives.
Good guess. Kids have to be fed, the mortgage has to be paid, and the electric bill keeps coming. And, on top of that, some posters on this site want to make sure the newly unemployed stay that way.
Not to brag or anything, but I made it into work on Thursday, 9-13 even though my workplace was only about a mile and half from the WTC site and still was officially closed. I was one of three people in a department of more than 30 to make it in. It actually turned out to be a productive day, and I like to think that by working that day I did my best to show the terrorists that America couldn't be cowed. It wasn't much of a gesture individually, of course, but multipled by thousands, that's a different story.
Good for you. You set an example for others to emulate.
I think Bloomberg should immediately cease and desist distributing tickets to the viewing platform at ground zero, and should restrict that platform to those who were immediately affected by the attack... the friends and loved ones of the deceased.
How could that possibly be enforced? Anyone could walk up and say that they were a friend of one of the deceased. Personally, I have no desire to go there - my attitude is that if I'm not able to help, I might well be a hindrance, and I don't want to be in the way - but I don't think the viewing platform should be off limits to anyone. All of us, in some way, have been affected by the attack, and should be permitted the same access as anyone else to the viewing site. I have a co-worker whose wife home-schools their three children (ages 9, 11, and 14, or thereabouts)-; she took the children there this past week as part of their education, so they could see first-hand the horror they had been hearing about. Not something I would have chosen to do if I were in their place, but he feels that they learned a great deal from the experience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I myself have first hand experance with 9-11-01.As most of you know from this board, my brother,sister and myself worked in the area[my brother in Tower one] He was injured by falling debree from building two.Hurt,but not dead[thank god].... My sister was walking to work from the subway station at Chambers st[A,C,E]. She was fine,...and me? miles away... anyway,my point is SEPTEMBER 11 will be a day that will remain with us for the rest of our lives,wither there is something built there or not...and even though my families ok,thats not the case for thousands of others.So I feel respect is in order here for the dead and the families they left behind....let them grieve,reflect,whatever it takes,to fully come to terms with what has happened and put it behind them,so lives can return somewhat to what passes of as normallacy.....God bless.....
I've been at the World Trade Center site (Ground Zero) myself. I was there on November 21st and it was an experience that I'll never forget. It still smelled there at the time and one could only imagine the horror that took place there on September 11th. In my own opinion when they rebuild the site they should build twin towers once again and have a portion of the orginial twin towers that survived placed in a plaza as a memorial to those that perished in the disaster.
#3 West End Jeff
To everyone that responded to this message-- you all made good points, and I think the entire country is in some sort of communal catharsis!!! This whole event is STILL unbelievable to EVERYBODY. I can empathize totally with those who saw the fiasco on 1 dimensional TV--they need to SEE it to TRY and make it sensible. It's not only tourists that are going to that platform, but New Yorkers that have been so familiar with what WAS there for so long. And my deepest sympathies go out to those that directly knew people that were injured or died in that horror. Believe me, if you saw what I saw between 9:20am and 9:45am from where I was standing numb, you know what I mean. Oh, there were news cameras pointed to the Plaza, BUT YOU WILL NEVER SEE the carnage that was recorded on film--YOU DONT WANT TO, but THAT is the last image I have in my mind of that spacious plaza strewn with bodies that jumped or were hit on the ground trying to ESCAPE the darn buildings. And lots of people I know that worked inthe complex are moved to offices elsewhere. I dont know anybody that is out of a job due to their entire company being destroyed, but some people out there are in that predicament. True, it's unhealthy to wallow in fear and stop life, but I am glad that the plans to start reconstructing are happening sooner than I ever expected. Just leaving the mess that is there for too long will cause that wallowing in misery. I guess the new WTC will be similar to the WTC-like complex in Century City in LA. And for a bit, it will be life as usual but with diversions--I learned that when I went back to work on 9/13, and I work in Soho. But directly connected with this site, Thank Heaven at least there is an attempt to bring regular 1 service to South Ferry for those who need to commute there. Business as usual, but with a slight diversion............. Tony
If the World Trade Center site is left empty, it will prove that the terrorists defeated us. If twin towers are built once again it means that we won't let terrorists try to defeat us. We should also get our hands on Osama Bin Laden and throw him into jail for the rest of his natural life. Then once the new "twin towers" are built they should put Osama Bin Laden on display (under heavy guard) where he can be ridiculed and treated like a fool because that is what he is. I would love to give him the Bronx cheer.
#3 West End Jeff
We should also get our hands on Osama Bin Laden and throw him into jail for the rest of his natural life.
Why waste time, space and money? If anybody deserves death, it's him.
Death would be too easy for Osama Bin Laden. He should be put into a jail cell and ridiculed by the public.
#3 West End Jeff
He doesn't care about the American public.
They why should we care how we treat Osama Bin Laden. I would love to toss a pail of ice cold water on him.
#3 West End Jeff
I say again - mke him clean up the Ground Zero site with a worn toothbrush and a bar of soap, and no sleep, food or water until the whole area is done. That will fix his wagon.
That would be a terrific puhishment for Osama Bin Laden. If he is not fast enough I'd whip him with a thick leather belt. Better yet, use a whip that is used by lion trainers.
#3 West End Jeff
place him in a pit with a bunch of starving Florida Peccaries. The tush hogs (Rhymes with Crush) will convert him into a form suitable for his afterlife. Tush hogs eat pit bulls for an appetizer.
Great idea. I would like to see Osama Bin Laden get eaten by some starving Florida Peccaries.
#3 West End Jeff
Death is too good for him. But then if anyone should get the death penalty it's him.
Still, in a way the events of September 11th put up an interesting argument against the death penalty. Where are the hijackers now? Dead, by their own design. There is no way we can punnish them now, and no way we can get information out of them.
Not that bin Laden or any key members of al-Qaida are likely to give information willingly.
I do believe, BTW, that a life sentence---a real life sentence where the convict is locked up and the key is thrown away--is a worse punnishment than death.
:-) Andrew
Good move. Osama Bin Laden should NEVER see the light of day ever again.
#3 West End Jeff
And death is the way to do that.
Death is too easy for Osama Bin Laden. He should spend the rest of his life in a prison cell.
#3 West End Jeff
Better yet, life by Redbird undercar. Of course, that is unusual and extreme punishment reserved only for CIs. CI Peter
Osama Bin Laden should be tortured by the general public. Maybe people can stick him with pins and needles. I would also throw ice cold water on him. You can also try putting him on the subway in a cage and have people pull his beard.
#3 West End Jeff
I came up with the perfect punishment:
Standard life imprisonment, even a little more luxurious than a standard max security prison, BUT he would have an implant installed in his brain which would constantly stimulate the section of the brain which causes reactions of fear. He would fear absolutely everything, and live YEARS like this in the worst kind of misery: mortally afraid of everything.
That would be the perfect punishment for Osama Bin Laden. Then he would be afraid of EVERYTHING!! Then they should build a new World Trade Center with twin towers and put him on public display in the lobby under heavy guard. Then to add to his fear they should have recordings of people screaming in fear that are played during the night and this is when he is placed in a darked room. Or they can play recordings of a ferocius lion ready to attack him. He could be put in the area where the lions are in the Bronx Zoo in his cage and they can charge at him. Maybe if he is just in the wrong place one of the lion can put a paw through and he gets a swipe. You can also put an ill tempered cat in the same cage as Osama Bin Laden and the cat could swipe him at times. Then I would have a horse kick Osama Bin Laden once a week so that he is in constant pain. I would also make him clean subway cars with a badly worn out mop. I would also make him do track work the old-fashioned way with picks and other suitable tools. If he isn't fast enough he would get the whip. He would live in HELL!! with what I would want to do to him.
#3 West End Jeff
I hate to be contributing to off-topic threads, but my prediction is that some Somali or Chechen warlord is going to call up the CIA in a year or so and say, "Is that $25 million still available, dead or alive?" and when told yes, deliver his body.
I do believe, BTW, that a life sentence---a real life sentence where the convict is locked up and the key is thrown away--is a worse punnishment than death.
Only if they aren't fed in their little box, so it would be sort of a death penalty.
I don't believe in the lethal injection. If a person committed a crime heinous enough to justify the death penalty, he doesn't deserve to die painlessly.
Why not for a life sentence, give them just enough food to survive, so they wind up going crazy and consuming their own feces?
I'm getting tired of that opinion. News flash: the terorrists did beat us (they lost 20 people, we lost 4000). The thing is, they won the battle, not the war. Whether or not we replace 2 buildings, we still are going to win the war.
and have a portion of the orginial twin towers that survived placed in a plaza as a memorial to those that perished in the disaster
I think they saved a piece of the WTC with the pointy windows from the bottom. That would be great for part of a memorial in a courtyard. Does anyone know if they did save a piece?
A section has been saved... not sure what piece, but your description sounds accurate from what I recall of the news photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's NYC's tradition to pave over it's own history, i doubt this will be too much different. the site will be rebuilt, with buildigs on it, and perhaps some sort of memorial. i don't necessarily like that fact, but it's the way it is...
as for the platform, tickets, seaport... the tourists are going to go down there anyway. they have been from day one. I think they ought to be selling the tickets to raise money for funds for the families. charge them 10 bucks a pop.
letting people from all over, everyday people, see it is in a small way a way of letting more people see just what happened...
though the long and the short of it is, the media censors too much. all the peope that jumped from the buildings, things like that, shocking as it was, it shoulda been more widely released, aired, etc. until you see the real horror of that morning for it's human element, and not just buildings falling down, well... ...you dehumanize it. i somehow doubt a lot of people overseas really get even close to a good grasp of how serious it was. they didn't get to hear firsthand accounts of people falling out of the sky, exploding against the sides of the towers, the looks of fear and bewilderment on people's faces, the taxis and buses commondered by emergency personnel speeding downtown, waving helmets and badges out the windows to get through traffic...
anywho...
my .2 cents.
The Joe--Great facts that you brought up in your post. However, it actually WAS a good thing that the media DID NOT show you the unedited tapes of what I saw the cameras filming that morning as far as the casualties. TOO GRUESOME beyond description. It's even horriffic seeing the non-human damage (the rubble, that PATH train, the Cortlandt IRT station). URGH!!!! Tony
Univision did air the raw video at first, but then pulled back (not sure if airing the falling bodies was a local decision, or one made by the corporate headquarters in Los Angeles, 3,000 miles away).
I don't like the idea of the viewing platforms either. I'm sure that most of the people going to view the WTC site are sincere. But it has already taken on too festive an atmosphere with all the lowlife street vendors hawking caps, shirts, etc. This whole ground zero ticket business smells of a tasteless gimmick to get people to visit the Seaport, which had problems attracting tourists even before 9/11. Since you can't realistically restrict ticket sales, the viewing platforms should be taken down. Not everything is required to be a tourist attraction.
We can't stop the discussion of rebuilding plans. Something is going to built there. It's the frenzy around all the discussions that is disprespectful. The towers weren't down a week before there was talk of what to replace it with. That was a time to just shut up and work behind the scenes. There just may not be the need for anything approaching the square footage destroyed in the attacks. I think we'll see the some of street grid restored through the WTC site and 2 or 3 smaller office buildings and a memorial structure.
That post makes sense.
I personally would want a small but meaningful memorial site, and as much commercial/residential/cultural development as the market will hold. We need to get back to work.
I WANT ***BIG BU$INE$$*** TO RETURN THERE. AMERICA AND CAPITALISM RULE.no yuppie street cafes. We just need to make sure business plays nice
OK with me.
This whole ground zero ticket business smells of a tasteless gimmick to get people to visit the Seaport, which had problems attracting tourists even before 9/11.
Very interesting point. I wondered why the ticket distribution point was at the Seaport - it's more or less in the opposite direction for people getting to lower Manhattan by subway (and not particularly close to the subway, for that matter). But as a means of attracting tourists, it makes sense.
The world outside the few who saw the destruction first hand ( was on a manhattan bound R40 slant on the manny B when the 2nd plane hit and walking back overt he manny B when the towers fell) Need to see the destruction first hand. The more people who do befor the site iss cleared the better.
The ticket distribution plan is helping all new yorkers because the tourists are spending thier money here and more importantly downtown. this will help the city heal.
The seaport shopping center is in bad shape. Even before 9/11. It needs all the help it can get or we will have another casualty of 9/11. And I an not talking about the real estae firm who runs the place but the people who work thier
I am sensitive to what happened there, too, but what many people don't seem to understand is this:
1) You take care of the LIVING first and foremost - and THEN memorialize the dead.
2) 100,000 people stand the risk of losing their jobs. That's not just dollars and cents. That's people not feeding their families, not having health insurance, not going to the dentist to fill cavities or get root canals, not being able to send their kids to college. That's serious stuff. Charity is nice, but no amount of charity will take care of that. And the interests of the dead do not trump the interests of the living.
Jackie Kennedy's refusal to touch her dress had no negative consequences for the dressmaker. Delaying economic recovery will put people into poverty who didn't deserve it. It's as if we produced secondary explosions to magnify the damage Osama and his buddies achieved.
Those 16 acres are not, and cannot be, merely a burial ground. And as long as they're not going to be that, their prompt redevelopment (this does NOT mean you don't put a memorial there) is crucial to New York's recovery.
3) People do need to find closure - agreed. But closure in this case may have to mean professional counseling, "grief resources" and other means. It does not mean interfering with the livelihoods of others.
We can't help the dead anymore. But we can help the living - including survivors- in appropriate ways. We don't forget this happened, but we move on and renew.
the viewing platform is very disgraceful and tasteless. imagine this, i go to school at Stuyvesant High School, about 5 blocks away from the towers. I saw 9/11 from my own eyes, beginning to end. So see people going on that platform to take pictures of the catastrophe, in my mind, is the ultimate disrespect. I don't need pictures to remind me of what happened. The images are seared into my brain, and the constant loading of barges at the pier behind my school is a constant reminder. i think too many leaders in NY have put promoting WTC as a tourist attraction to gain money instead of memorializing it properly.
"So see people going on that platform to take pictures of the catastrophe, in my mind, is the ultimate disrespect. I don't need pictures to remind me of what happened."
You may not need to see the pictures, but other people do....I took pictures for a friend who requested that I do, because she didn't think she would be able to pay her respects at ground zero anytime soon. What I think is disrespectful is when people are posing with smiling faces w/ ground zero in the background...that i just don't understand. But taking photos for others who wish to see them I don't have a problem with. -Nick
The whole thing, the platform, the tourists, the bloodsucking profiteers, the involvement of the Seaport.
Makes me sick.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hrm, Stuy people seem to show up everywhere :) Class of 99 here...
I don't see why people's attraction to the site (viewing platform's et all) is disrespectful. People are curious and rightly so. Hearing about it and seeing it in the news just doesn't do it justice. Its really hard to understand for most people I presume. It needs to be driven home. I've walked the perimeter of the site 3 times, and spent much time just walking along avenues south of NYU looking at the skyline and trying to make it sink in.
I believe the best possible thing would be to have the aftermath recorded in as many photo albums as possible. Photos are vivid reminders that last and don't forget or distort the truth. Just because you don't need to see them doesn't alter this.
As for the tickets, I believe they are needed. There needs to be some way of throttling the demand for the platforms. The ticket booths are not terribly far, but away enough to not add to the crowds in the area. And the seaport could use the collateral business. If all the directly affected businesses have done everything to get back on their feet in order to escape defeat, whats so different about this tourist routing? The collapse of any business, the loss of any jobs downtown is another victory for the terrorists.
Giuliani's immediate response to people who wanted to get down there with cameras was one of incredulous horror and disgust. He was right the first time...
But Giuliani knew something the rest of us didn't. He saw all of it, from day one, every angle, every face fleeing and then working at the site, in person.
If we saw what he did, we would be disgusted as well. Simply telling us it was so in this case is woefully insufficient.
the viewing platform is very disgraceful and tasteless. imagine this, i go to school at Stuyvesant High School, about 5 blocks away from the towers. I saw 9/11 from my own eyes, beginning to end. So see people going on that platform to take pictures of the catastrophe, in my mind, is the ultimate disrespect. I don't need pictures to remind me of what happened. The images are seared into my brain, and the constant loading of barges at the pier behind my school is a constant reminder. i think too many leaders in NY have put promoting WTC as a tourist attraction to gain money instead of memorializing it properly.
This weekend, I'm going to end up going to visit The Site for the first time since the incident. My future in-laws want to see it. Somehow, I'm kind of dreading it- not because of the tragedy that occurred (I think I'm prepared) but because I've got this feeling that this is turning into some sort of macabre tourist destination. I've also heard that tourists are actually taking family photos on the viewing platforms. That's about as tasteless as sending postcards from Auschwitz.
If there's any consolation, at least my in-laws aren't tasteless bumpkins. I'm leaving my camera at home.
People have to accept responsibility for their own behavior. Some will be idiots, while others will be ladies and gentlemen.
However, the mere fact that the viewing platform was built shows a lack of disrespect and tackiness on the part of the 'city fathers'.
BMTman
One ticket, one 500ml of blood, pick up your tickets as you exit the Red Cross blood donors clinic.
Hurry,hurry, hurry, get your tickets right here.
Validated tickets allows holder to puschase "T" shirt, photos and food from NYC's diversified vendors.
Hurry,hurry, hurry.
Donate a kidney and have your picture taken with a cardboard likeness of his former Honor.
Hurry, hurry, hurry.
avid
The viewing platform does have a sense of both the tacky and morbid, kind of like highway rubberneckers slowing down to check out a fatal crash, only in this case four months after the fact. But the people viewing it are probably no different than some of the celebrities who post-9/11 received their own personal guided tours of Ground Zero from city officials. It would be hard for the city to justify all the VIP tours they gave the "really important" people in the wake of the tragedy and then tell the general public to buzz off.
As for the reconstruction plans, given the contentious and hazard-filled process of getting anything built in New York for the past 35 years, I don't think four months past is that bad a time to start doing some serious work on what will go in place of the WTC complex (four days after was a little tacky, but not four months). Certainly, the MTA and PATH have no choice but to think about rebuilding, since two of their major lines are out, causing headcaches for people in both lower and midtown Manhattan. Discussions now about the site may mean that some sort of general concensus may be reached both about the above ground buildings and/or memorial and the below ground mass transit hub by the time the court ruling on the WTC insurance payment comes down.
>>>It would be hard for
the city to justify all the VIP tours they gave the "really important" people in the wake of the tragedy
and then tell the general public to buzz off. <<
They shouldn't have allowed those "very important" people there either. They're very important, in their heads.
I agree. It's just that from a political standpoint (which is in the end what this boils down to), once they started allowing the rich and famous to visit the place, the city's officials lost a lot of their moral justification for keeping everyone else away. If they had been steadfast and said "no" all the way through, saying "no" now to the platforms would have been a lot easier to do.
>>> the city's officials lost a lot of their moral justification for keeping everyone else away. If they had been steadfast and said "no" all the way through, saying "no" now to the platforms would have been a lot easier to do. <<<
In the United States there is no "moral justification" for preventing its citizens from seeing the damage caused on 9/11. This was not a private tragedy limited to the next of kin of those who died, or those who live in New York. It affected the whole nation, and repulsed the whole world. I suspect the overwhelming majority of those who go to the site are respectful of those who died there. As a free society, opposed to mind control, we have to accept those who are not.
If this is an area that should be closed to public scrutiny, what is next? Do we prevent gawking tourists from going to Dealey Plaza in Dallas? Do we prevent tourists from looking at the Dakota where John Lennon was killed, or prevent those who continue to leave flowers at the intersection where James Dean was killed from going there? Those who can differentiate between these sites and think people should be prevented from seeing one, but not the others, have appointed themselves censors for the rest of us.
The viewing platforms and the selling of tickets are appropriate to control the number of persons who wish to view the site and keep them out of the way of those who are working there.
Tom
We're talking time frame here, and everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Should there have been a Sixth Floor Depository museum and tours in March of 1964, four months after the assassination? Most people would say "no." Is there any problem putting one in later as the event recedes into time and becomes a part of history instead of a part of current events? Again, most people would say "no."
As both a disaster clean-up site and crime scene, the city does have a right to restrict access to the WTC area, which is why a N.Y. Times photographer was arrested over the weekend for using an unauthorized area pass to enter the Ground Zero site to take pictures. Do I expect the same sort of scrutiny a year, two years, five years from now? Of course not. But the events of 9/11 are still fresh in peoples' minds and bodies are still being pulled from the site. Had the city never allowed any of the non-essential celbs down there, they would have had greater justification for not building a viewing site down there at this time. But they were allowed in and there was a flap for several days about the special treatment given to those people, so to refuse to build and operate a platform for the general public now would smack of hypocricy.
Had the city never allowed any of the non-essential celbs down there, they would have had greater justification for not building a viewing site down there at this time. But they were allowed in and there was a flap for several days about the special treatment given to those people, so to refuse to build and operate a platform for the general public now would smack of hypocricy.
I agree, and moreover, people started coming down to the site as soon as the area was opened east of Broadway. It's a perfectly natural human emotion to want to visit the site of horror, to see, to witness, to try to comprehend and take in the reality.
I can argue both sides on the viewing platform. But from what I've heard, the crowds have been as respectful and as moved as they were before the ramp was built. Smiling photos with wreckage in the background seem like they'd be a small minority.
Certain "famous people" need to have seen it, up close and personal, and as soon after the disaster as possible.
These are politicians and foreign leaders who make policy and might otherwise not have grasped the full reality of it.
Those aren't the ones I'm talking about, and I'm not even talking about the celebs, such as the Yankees and Giants players, who the rescue crews wanted to visit with. The ones I mean are the beautiful people who seemingly dealt with their trips there the same way British nobles dealt with guided tours through the Kalahari Plains or other exotic locales.
Allowing people like that to get guided tours of the site opened the city up to criticism in the future if they prevented the general public from viewing the location, because they had no more business being at the site than the general public.
Well, with the "beautiful people," I wonder how many (and which ones) came out of a desire to show support, or morbid curiosity, or with an eye to their future press releases, to say "You see! I am too a sensitive person! I went to ground zero!"
How many times are we reminded that a rock star, or supermodel,is more equal than others.
On the other hand, local charities want them to visit because they can help open a lot of wallets (including their own). It's not just "T and A" at work here; it's money.
I believe the world needs to be reminded of what was done at WTC...next week, next year, and a century from now.
Which does not mean that the reconstruction work should be delayed. What happened on September 11th was tragic, but we cannot wallow in self-pity. The only true way to show that the terrorists didn't win is to proceed with reconstruction all speed ahead - and resuming 1/9 service this fall is a big part of that.
Otherwise New York (and the nation) will be like those pathetic people who blame childhood "trauma" for the fact that they're total losers at age 35.
>>>The only true way to show that the
terrorists didn't win <<<
They didn't win?
Of course they won. They set out to kill as many Americans as possible, striking at the heart of the USA--downtown Manhattan and Washington, DC...to prove that America is not invulnerable and maybe...just maybe...can be defeated if an attack is carried out with enough stealth. No country, no terrorist cell can match the USA missile for missile, weapon for weapon. So any potential enemy will strike at civilians and try to take as many casualties as possible.
To say that, in this case, the terrorists did not win is naive.
Our task now is to make certain that the United States will never again be bloodied by terrorist attacks and to give potential terrorists serious pause before they consider further actions like this.
Well, it all depends on how you interpret these events. You seem to believe they set out to kill as many Americans as possible, and I and Mr. Rosa seem to believe that they set out to disrupt our way of life.
For us, defense is simply not enough. We believe we must move quickly to take this as an opportunity to improve what once was. We've learned a lot of things since the WTC was built, and we can use these things towards making something better. Any delay or complete abandonment of the site for its traditional uses would be a failure persevere. I fear it would do more damage than good in both the lost fertile business environment (meaning the atmosphere of the pre-9/11 Financial District and WTC's contribution to it) and morale.
One reason I believe they set out to maximize disruption and not deaths is I believe for all their cunning in devising this attack, they would have used the planes far more effectively. To discuss how is not something I want to get into, but this attack wasn't the deadliest the one the 767s were capable of.
What was the terrorists purpose?
If you look at the attacks (remember it was plural) in classic military terms, the purpose of a sneak attack is to demoralize an enemy (that's us) with an overwhelming attack. They hit WTC and the Pentagon nearly simultaneously and the fourth plane would have gone where? The White House? Congress?
Remember that on 9/11 none of us knew what was going to happen next. One "talking head" on TV suggested, as Bush didn't return instantly to the White House, that this brought into question "the continuity of the government." I think that's exactly what the terrorists hoped for.
If they hadn't succeeded in that ambitious purpose, at least I think they believed they would have been able to drive the U.S. out of those areas of the world where they don't want it to be.
Yes, they're hostile to our way of life, but I think spoiling our way of living was secondary to more ambitious goals.
Anyway, we should make policy based on what we need, not by trying to figuring out "what the terrorists wanted" and then doing the opposite. That in itself empowers them.
Just my opinion.
You can almost always do something once. That's hard to prevent. We need to make sure the second time doesn't happen.
>>> I think Bloomberg should immediately cease and desist distributing tickets to the viewing platform at ground zero, and should restrict that platform to those who were immediately affected by the attack...the friends and loved ones of the deceased. <<<
You are wrong. This was not an automobile accident that involved only those in two cars. The attack affected all of the people in the nation. The site cannot be hidden away.
>>> But this was the worst day in NYC and USA history. <<<
Kevin, you of all people should retain a historical perspective. September 11th was possibly the worst day in New York City history although some would say each of the days of the draft riots of 1863 were worse, requiring three regiments of infantry and a battery of artillery to be pulled from the front lines of the Civil War to restore order.
The occupation of Washington, D.C. and the burning of the capitol by an invading foreign army during the War of 1812, and the Battles of Bull Run (Manassas) during the Civil War can be considered worse days in U.S. history than September 11th.
>>> I believe the world needs to be reminded of what was done at WTC...next week, next year, and a century from now. <<<
This is true, but that should be done with an appropriate memorial, not leaving the site untouched. What would London and Hiroshima (both cities that took bigger hits than New York) look like today if the only way to remind people in the future of what happened there were to leave those sites undisturbed?
Tom
Some bombed structures in England are still in ruins, partly in remembrance, and Hiroshima preserves the bombed shell of a building at the center of the blast as a reminder of what happened there.
The result of whatever is put, or not put, on the site of the WTC should not be primarily to provide closure for those most closely affected, though that's a fine result. It should be to remind us what happens when we massively turn our backs, and forget.
Don't assume that those who died 9/11 are the end of it.
>>>The result of whatever is put, or not put, on the site of the WTC should not be primarily to provide
closure for those most closely affected, though that's a fine result. It should be to remind us what
happens when we massively turn our backs, and forget. <<<
The Times had an article about memorials made to commemorate the deceased in previous NYC disasters, such as the General Slocum boat fire and the Triangle Shirtwaist Farctory disaster (which was really a manslaughter). Those monuments or plaques are well hidden and it takes pretty good detective work to discover where they are.
9/11/01 dwarfs both in the number of casualties. I suspect, and hope, any monument constructed as a memorial will be as moving as, for example, Maya Lin's Vietnam War Memorial in Washington.
But 100 years on who can say how 9/11/01 will be commemorated...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Funny you should mention Maya Lin's Vietnam Memorial. Anyone who has seen it has been enormously moved by it. Yet I can't help noting that it is below the surface, not seen much from a distance. Compare this to the proposed WWII Memorial, which would splash across the landscape in monumental style.
This seems to me to reflect our sentiments about the two wars. World War II captures our attention and stands a a national centerpiece. The Vietnam War's mourning is personal and hidden, just beneath the surface.
Not to diminsh Sep. 11, but I agree that the historical evidence definitely shows that the draft riots of 1863 were an incredibly worse day in NYC history. Essentially, a miniature civil war was fought within the confines of the city and the same number of people died as on Sep. 11, but out of a population of roughly 1 million, rather than the NYC metro area's current 20 million.
So the percent death toll was 20 times as high, property damage was huge, and what was worse is that New Yorkers did it to each other.
So the percent death toll was 20 times as high, property damage was huge, and what was worse is that New Yorkers did it to each other.
Is there any physical evidence remaining of the Draft Riots? Any memorials or permanent reminders?
None that I know of. I think everyone wanted to forget their bad behavior as quickly as possible. Both the draft rioters and the militia who suppressed them did things they couldn't possibly have been proud of afterwards.
>>>Is there any physical evidence remaining of the Draft Riots? Any memorials or permanent
reminders? <<<
Luc Sante, writing in his 1991 book Low Life, says,
--------------------
The Draft Riots are not claimed by New York as one of the great events in its history. They are considered an embarrassment, and a large percentage of the city's population have no idea that an insurrection on a vast scale ever took place in their municipality. There are no plaques to mark the sites of the battles, no museum exhibits devoted to artifacts, and no perennial feature stories in newspapers on the anniversary of the occasion. Alvin F. Harlow, the Bowery's historian, devotes all of four sentences to the riots in his record of the street...
Nevertheless their impact is hard to overlook. The numbers alone are eloquent: killed were possibly 2,000 rioters, about a hundred black people, three policemen and around fifty soldiers and guardsmen...
-----------
I recommend the above book as well as Burrows & Wallace's Gotham for accounts of the NY Draft Riots. If you think the USA was close to revolution in 1968-70, it was much closer in 1863...
I was in Baltimore a few years ago, and there are historical signs devoted to the NYC draft riots. Baltimore!
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was in Baltimore a few years ago, and there are historical signs devoted to the NYC draft riots. Baltimore!
What do they say? What's the Baltimore connection?
Well, it was a few years ago, it's hard to remember now.
So Mr. Sante has over 2,000 dead? I'll repeat the firmest figure I could find, from americanhistory.about.com, which says:
"Although the initial reports of more than 1,200 deaths proved exaggerated, as many as 118 people may have been killed before exhausted Union troops, marching straight from their victory at Gettysburg, put down the riot."
Someone is way off. Mr. Sante does not serve history by putting speculative figures in his book, unless he has something firm to back them up.
>>>>Someone is way off. Mr. Sante does not serve history by putting speculative figures in his book,
unless he has something firm to back them up. <<<
In Gotham, Burrows/Wallace say "Contemporaries believed a thousand people had died, though in the end only a body count of 119 could be verified."
I forget what figure was in Burns' recent NYC documentary.
www.forgotten-ny.com
So Mr. Sante has over 2,000 dead? I'll repeat the firmest figure I could find, from americanhistory.about.com, which says:
"Although the initial reports of more than 1,200 deaths proved exaggerated, as many as 118 people may have been killed before exhausted Union troops, marching straight from their victory at Gettysburg, put down the riot."
Someone is way off. Mr. Sante does not serve history by putting speculative figures in his book, unless he has something firm to back them up.
Most likely the worst disaster in U.S. history in terms of "kill rate" was the 1900 Galveston hurricane. About 7,000 people died - out of a population of 10,000.
Somehow it's easier to accept (although horrific) 7000 people dead in a natural disaster, than 2000 dead in a senseless act of violence.
>>> Someone is way off. Mr. Sante does not serve history by putting speculative figures in his book, unless he has something firm to back them up. <<<
The number killed in the draft riots will never be known. "Estimates" are similar to those about how many rapes go unreported or how many illegal aliens are in the United States unknown to the government. Some deaths, those of police officers, soldiers, and prominent citizens would be recorded as well as those who had life insurance, but among the poor, deaths might not be reported to authorities.
There was no Social Security death benefit then, and the police who might normally investigate deaths were barricaded within their precinct houses fighting to save their own lives. Newspaper reporters reported deaths they actually saw, but in those days before the telephoned tip, those could only be a sampling of the total number that occurred. Although called a draft riot, it quickly became a race riot with blacks having their homes burned and being hunted and lynched by hanging, beating, and being set on fire. Since it would do them no good, the surviving families of those victims would have no pressing reason to report the deaths to the authorities, and the authorities, who later learned the names of the ringleaders of the mobs but generally declined to prosecute them were not looking for more names to add to the list of the dead. By the same token rioters who might be wounded by police or soldiers and later died of their wounds or infection also might not be reported.
There was a war going on and the authorities wanted to downplay the event to prevent giving comfort to the enemy. It is generally agreed that at least 1,200 died which is 10 times the number of deaths that specific names can be attached to, but some authors have made higher estimates.
>>> exhausted Union troops, marching straight from their victory at Gettysburg, put down the riot. <<<
To put a bit of on topic content to this post, the troops, three New York regiments, did not march from Gettysburg. They came by train from various battlefields, including Gettysburg to reinforce the garrison troops already in New York and Brooklyn who could not subdue the rioters and had their hands full defending the armories.
Tom
I disagree with you, Tom. Humans are recod keeping animals.
These wasn't people buried by a volcano in a South Pacific island in prehistoric times. Nor were bodies vaporized, as in WTC. Where are these thousand-plus bodies buried? Is there evidence covered up that bodies were carted off and dumped in mass graves? Do you suppose the families of those missing after the riots never said a word? Do you imaginethe families of the killed so degraded that they didn't seek out their missing and dead and have services and funerals?
More to the point, writers exaggerate facts for sensational reasons, for political reasons, or from just plain laziness.
When you say it is "generally agreed" that x number of people died, you'll have to say by whom. History demands that those who claim a sigificantly larger number than 120 or so explain their methods.
On-topic to this forum, remember the ridiculous stories surrounding the Malbone Street wreck ("one third of the dead electrocuted by re-energized third rail"; "many dead illegal immigrants who weren't reported", etc.) repeated by tabloids and, eventually some of the stories by respected writers such as Stan Fischler.
You make some good points, there Paul. But Tom's generally on the mark. What you're doing is looking at 19th Century events with a 20th Century camera lens. It gives you a distorted image. If you put the events in their appropriate context, you get a situation pretty close to what Tom describes.
For example:
"Do you imaginethe families of
the killed so degraded that they didn't seek out their missing and dead and have services and funerals?"
In the 19th Century? You can bet that happened. Especially to black families, and other politically disenfranchised people. Especially when authorities did not always act with the standard of care they do now (and evn now you'll see a problem on occasion).
Have you studied prior centuries much, Ron? The 19th century was not the dark ages.** You would be amazed at the records that were kept. To mention "disenfrancised people" specifically, we can tell, for example, what occupations formerly enslaved people in Kings County took up years and decades after emanicipation in the same time frame as those Draft Riots.
Let's not bolster bad history with the usual excuses. If one claims "1200" or "3000" or whatever, when the record shows 120, we need more than a guess. In fact, a 1200 number reeks of a political gambit, since it is almost exactly 10 times the proven death toll of 118 or 119. It makes me think that someone said "that figure is to low, so I'll bet there are 10 dead for every one we know about."
**In fact, even in the dark ages, record keeping and law making was surprisingly modernl, albeit without the aid of computers.
"The 19th century was not the dark ages.** You would be amazed at the
records that were kept. To mention "disenfrancised people" specifically, we can tell, for example, what occupations formerly
enslaved people in Kings County took up years and decades after emanicipation in the same time frame as those Draft Riots."
In general, yes. In some specific cases, no. You're misapplying the general case to an instance where the opportunity to keep records was severely curtailed.
I think we're doing some horse-beating here (I'm only claiming ONE horse ;-) ) I understand that you feel this is a special case, but it doesn't forgive the necessity to back up a figure. In the heat of the battle (and it was a battle) it would have been hard to find out how many were killed and wounded, but bodies turn up afterwards. Maybe we could use yet another commission to try to accurately assess the truth but I'm not certain if this is worth the effort. Some people will continue to believe what they want no matter who "blue-ribbon" the commission.
Of course, we will probably have a movie which will become the popualr "truth" of the Draft Riots. When I was growing up, the line was: "It HAS to be true, I read it in print." Now it's: "It HAS tobe true, I saw the movie." ;-)
I'll give you a different reason (other than historical accuracy, which is an end in itself) not to accept embellished claims--it leads to a cynicism which covers greater atrocities. When Hitler began murdering people in concentration camps and reports began to filter out, many people flatly disbelieved it. Why? Because in World War I there were so many lurid claims ("German troops kill and eat babies" kind of stuff) that people just dismissed stories of Nazi brutality as the same-old same-old war propoganda.
Anyway. You may have the last word if you wish. We've both set out our reasoning.
"Maybe we could use yet another
commission to try to accurately assess the truth but I'm not certain if this is worth the effort. Some people will continue to
believe what they want no matter who "blue-ribbon" the commission."
So true, so true...
"Of course, we will probably have a movie which will become the popualr "truth" of the Draft Riots. When I was growing up,
the line was: "It HAS to be true, I read it in print." Now it's: "It HAS tobe true, I saw the movie." ;-) "
And everybody knows the one guy, historically, who saw the truth was Mel Gibson! :0)
"When Hitler began murdering people in concentration camps and reports
began to filter out, many people flatly disbelieved it. Why? Because in World War I there were so many lurid claims ("German
troops kill and eat babies" kind of stuff) that people just dismissed stories of Nazi brutality as the same-old same-old war
propoganda."
Don't forget, though, that this was laid on top of an ambient anti-Semitism and isolationist preference in 1930's America.
"Anyway. You may have the last word if you wish. We've both set out our reasoning."
I never worry about who has the last word. It means I have to go find another debate somewhere...:0)
"Anyway. You may have the last word if you wish. We've both set out our reasoning."
I never worry about who has the last word. It means I have to go find another debate somewhere...:0)
Best point yet! It also makes me a liar, because now I'm still talking. "Is, to dispute well, Logic's chiefest end?" asked Marlowe in Faust. But if some fellow in red underwear promises you a better debate in exchange for a useless little soul, maybe we should think twice? ;-)
"When Hitler began murdering people in concentration camps and reports began to filter out, many people flatly disbelieved it. Why? Because in World War I there were so many lurid claims ("German troops kill and eat babies" kind of stuff) that people just dismissed stories of Nazi brutality as the same-old same-old war propoganda."
Don't forget, though, that this was laid on top of an ambient anti-Semitism and isolationist preference in 1930's America.
Well said, but the point still stands that the blatant propoganda of earlier wars made it easier for the anti-Semite to convince the impartial that true horror was just political talk.
You're not a liar anymore.
:0)
("Of course, we will probably have a movie which will become the popualr "truth" of the Draft Riots. When I was growing
up, the line was: "It HAS to be true, I read it in print." Now it's: "It HAS tobe true, I saw the movie.")
The movie "Gangs of New York" is coming out soon, and I'm looking forward to it. Perhaps Scorcese will settle the death toll issue.
On-topic to this forum, remember the ridiculous stories surrounding the Malbone Street wreck ("one third of the dead electrocuted by re-energized third rail"; "many dead illegal immigrants who weren't reported", etc.) repeated by tabloids and, eventually some of the stories by respected writers such as Stan Fischler.
Untrue, yes, ridiculous, no. Both of the examples you cite were quite plausible. Controllers at the BMT powerhouse did restore third-rail power a minute or two after the crash, and the great wave of immigration that began in the late 1800's was still in full swing. The lack of electrocution deaths probably is attributable to the fact that the power resumption occured too quickly after the wreck for any of the survivors to have climbed down to the tracks. There weren't any unreported deaths of illegal immigrants (to the extent it's possible to prove a negative) because the sections of Brooklyn toward which the train was heading were mainly middle-class areas with relatively few immigrants.
You bring up another point. If a b***s*** argument is plausible, it gets wide acceptance, even if it savages the truth.
And as to "unreported illegal immigrants." Immigrants leave bodies when they die, too, whether they're legal or illegal. And yes, you can spend endless hours trying to prove a negative.
Wasn't the Malbone street wreck before 1926? That was when Congress passed a restrictive immigration bill and illegal immigration became a big thing. Before that, most healthy people were accepted.
Wasn't the Malbone street wreck before 1926? That was when Congress passed a restrictive immigration bill and illegal immigration became a big thing. Before that, most healthy people were accepted.
Malbone Street was November 1, 1918.
According to the list in Brian Cudahy's book, only a relative handful of the 93 people who died in the wreck were foreign-born.
The immigration law was changed in 1924.
>>> Humans are recod keeping animals. <<<
This may be true, but they often choose which records they keep rather carefully. The New York Times, which had extensive reports of the riots, including eyewitness reports of specific deaths, published no total of those killed. I suggest that is because at that time, right after the event there was no effective central registry of those killed, and therefore no firm total.
In more modern times it has been difficult to get a firm total of deaths in various instances such as:
The number of "disappeared" before democracy replaced the military in Argentina.
The number of students killed in Mexico City just prior to the 1968 Olympics.
The number of Viet Cong killed in Viet Nam (the body count that showed we were winning).
The number of Cambodians who died during the Pol Pot regime.
The number of Panamanians killed during the American invasion to arrest Noriega.
The number of Iraqis killed during Desert Storm
The number killed due to "ethnic cleansing" in the Balkans.
>>> Do you imaginethe families of the killed so degraded that they didn't seek out their missing and dead and have services and funerals? <<<
I never suggested that the families would not seek out their missing and dead, just that they would not necessarily make any report that they died as a result of the riot, and the authorities were not interested in increasing the riot death toll. Those who were burned out may have buried their dead and moved away, or left with injured who died elsewhere.
Tom
To buttress your point you've pointed to many well-known infamous dictatorships. If you feel that the U.S. is in this league, than there's no point in accepting any figure at all, is there?
>>> If you feel that the U.S. is in this league <<<
Don't look now, but three of the seven examples involved the United States. It was the United States who inflated the body count in Viet Nam to prove to Americans at home that there was a "light at the end of the tunnel" and we were winning the war. It was the United States that suppressed the number of Panamanian casualties when it did not look good that we would kill quite a few innocent Latinos in another country to arrest a "drug kingpin" (who would not let his country be used as a staging area to overthrow the Nicaraguan government). It was the United States that insisted that they did not count enemy casualties in Desert Storm, although keeping track of enemy casualties is always important intelligence information for any military force in combat.
Are you absolutely sure the American government, locked in a struggle for its existence as it was in 1863, wouldn't fudge any figures to hide the extent of the insurrection against authority in New York?
Tom
To restate: if you feel these conditions apply there is no point in accepting any figures at all. A figure of 1200 or 3000 or 9276 is as bogus as a figure of 119.
>>> if you feel these conditions apply there is no point in accepting any figures at all. A figure
of 1200 or 3000 or 9276 is as bogus as a figure of 119. <<<
It is not a question of bogus figures as much as it is whether historians may legitimately make estimates when exact figures are unavailable. As with anything in life, some do it better than others.
An everyday example is the estimation of the crowd size at parades. If a twenty-five reporters interviewed a total of 500 spectators at the most recent Rose Parade and each of them were able to give the names of 9 other people they knew for certain were in attendance, I would have no confidence in a total figure of 5,000 as the number who watched the parade in person. Some future historian trying to estimate the total attendance at this Rose Parade might look at several aerial photos taken at intervals along the route, and count the individuals in each photo and make an estimate of the total in attendance. Although there may be errors in this method, I believe it would provide a number closer to the actual one than saying the total number is only those who can be counted in the available photographs, or that the total in attendance were those whose names were recorded as being there.
Tom
If a twenty-five reporters interviewed a total of 500 spectators at the most recent Rose Parade and each of them were able to give the names of 9 other people they knew for certain were in attendance, I would have no confidence in a total figure of 5,000 as the number who watched the parade in person. Some future historian trying to estimate the total attendance at this Rose Parade might look at several aerial photos taken at intervals along the route, and count the individuals in each photo and make an estimate of the total in attendance. Although there may be errors in this method, I believe it would provide a number closer to the actual one than saying the total number is only those who can be counted in the available photographs, or that the total in attendance were those whose names were recorded as being there.
I once read that if the number of people in the Rose Bowl Parade's "official" estimates actually showed up, in the space availabe for spectators, payloaders and dump trucks would be needed to remove the thousands of suffocated corpses.
>>> if the number of people in the Rose Bowl Parade's "official" estimates actually showed up, in the space availabe for spectators <<<
I was thinking of that when I used the Rose Parade as an example. There was a recent news feature which pointed out that a perennial news story each New Year's Day starts out with "More than a million people lined Colorado Boulevard to watch the xxth annual Tournament of Roses Parade ..." For a million people to line the route there would have to be the equivalent of 10,000 people per block for 100 blocks. The parade route is far shorter than 100 blocks, and of course there are not 10,000 people in each and every block. The one million figure was some Chamber of Commerce puffing which no one in the media looked at critically. The Pasadena Police estimate the crowd at about 2-300,000.
Tom
You're being too hard on the Chamber of Commerce, Tom.
The Chamber of Commerce is at least as smart about its numbers as the kid who just got a new bike and says, "Oh boy. I like the bike so much I just rode around the block about a billion times."
:0)
The Chamber of Commerce is at least as smart about its numbers as the kid who just got a new bike and says, "Oh boy. I like the bike so much I just rode around the block about a
billion times."
In the words of Mr. Salaam Allah... lol
"It was the United States that insisted that they did not count enemy
casualties in Desert Storm, although keeping track of enemy casualties is always important intelligence information for any
military force in combat."
In the context of the particular Subtalk thread, that example is a good one.
Bear in mind though: The US military in Desert Storm kept track of opposing military strength as the campaign continued. They kept track of, and reported, the number of tanks destroyed, number of bunkers destroyed, and % of targets hit. This information was released to anybody who wanted it. There were also plenty of estimates of enemy casualties.
What they did not do was repeat the mistake made in Vietnam - that of equating enemy dead with success on the battlefield. They also did not want to repeat the mistake of extensively publicizing lots of casualty figures - because these serve little purpose.
The reduction of civilian casualties in Desert Storm, compared to previous large-scale conflicts, was pretty clear. This progress has continued, culminating in the recent Afghanistan campaign.
How do we know that 10,000 U.S. troops weren't killed in Desert Storm? The deaths were covered up ny military commanders. Individual families were told that their loved ones were killed in traffic accidents in a different part of the world. No figures were compiled and the different families never knew or had reason to compare notes with each other. The morning reports that report personnel in different units were embargoed. If the need ever arose, they would have been altered backwards to cover up the missing soldiers.
I can make up stories, too. I can guarantee you if I put that out on the internet, some significant number of people would believe it, and quote it.
Who knows, it might even end up in a book...
And the next step after that is for the black helicopters of the New World Order to land at South Ferry and tell the MTA to cancel the IRT rebuild...
If you wanted to play instead of having a serious discussion you should have said so.
You consider that play?
My example is as plausable as many others, except that I'm making it obvious it's not the truth. I know how some of these things work and could write up a theory much more convincing, but I prefer that people trust that I believe what I say...
3,000 dead in the New York Draft Riots? That was a horrible week in the City, but what point are you trying to make by coming up with that fanciful figure? The firmest figure I can come up with is from americanhistory.about.com, which says:
"Although the initial reports of more than 1,200 deaths proved exaggerated, as many as 118 people may have been killed before exhausted Union troops, marching straight from their victory at Gettysburg, put down the riot"
I must admit the number 3000 is what I remmebered from college, which is a very long time ago. Either I was totally making it up, or else historians have done some more careful checking since then.
If you are interested in more info on the NYC Draft Riots, I believe a book currently available called something like 'The Gangs of New York' (saw it a couple of weeks ago in Barnes & Noble). In it is a sizable section on the Draft Riots, since the author indicates that the rioting was paritially based on the Irish gang population in Manhattan at the time and 'snowballed' from their initial actions.
The books' jacket claims that a forthcoming Francis Ford Coppola movie will be heavily based on it.
BMTman
Doug, mentioning the gangs reminds us that New York City in general wasn't a very peaceable place in the 19th Century.
After all, we had 23 dead in the Astor Place Riot in 1849. What were the rioting about? They didn't like an unpopular Brit playing in Macbeth over a prominent American Shakespearan.
Good point.
And like I told Kev 'SelkirkTMO': I'd be rioting in the streets if Drakes discontinued making 'Ring Dings'...
Chat with you later...
;-D
The Ring Ding Riots of 1839 are reputed to have left whole neighborhoods devastated, but a conspiracy of silence has expunged all records.
Obviously, in my former life I was the conspirator who burned all the evidence....;-D
Burned RING-DINGS, that's all we need...
Peace,
ANDEE
On my lunch hour I went over to the nearest B&N and got the precise info on the book called 'The Gangs of New York'. It is written by Herbert Ashbury and the Draft Riots are covered in Chapter 7 and continue into Chapter 8. It is the most I've seen written on the subject of the Draft Riots.
BTW, I was wrong about the movie info. The filmed version of "The Gangs of New York" will star Leonardo DiCaprio and be directed by Martin Scorsese (occuring to the jacket blub).
BMTman
Does it really matter which event had the distinction of being the worst?
>>>
The occupation of Washington, D.C. and the burning of the capitol by an invading foreign army
during the War of 1812, and the Battles of Bull Run (Manassas) during the Civil War can be
considered worse days in U.S. history than September 11th. <<<
They could. 9/11/01's magnitude was amplified by its worldwide broadcast on television. The world knew of the attacks within minutes after they occurred...
We can't just play a numbers and magnitude of destruction game. If we were to do that, we'd only have to look at Hitler's murder of the Jews or Hutu's murder of Tutsis, or the Rape of Nanking, not to mention Pol Pot. In that case we'd have to shrug off an event that killed "only" 3,000 people.
September 11 is not exactly comparable to any other event. It was a massive attack on civilians and civilian tragets in a peacetime sneek attack on the soil of the United States. It stands alone, and may it always be so.
"This is true, but that should be done with an appropriate memorial, not leaving the site untouched. What would London and Hiroshima (both cities that took bigger hits than New York) look like today if the only way to remind people in the future of what happened there were to leave those sites undisturbed?"
I didn't think to use those examples, Tom, so thank for posting that. Yes, excellent logic.
This is true, but that should be done with an appropriate memorial, not leaving the site untouched. What would London and Hiroshima (both cities that took bigger hits than New York) look like today if the only way to remind people in the future of what happened there were to leave those sites undisturbed?
Many, many people want one of the remaining Dresden-like sections of facade incorporated into whatever memorial is built. At least one of the sections has been saved for such purposes.
That's a reasonable request.
Although I believe a lot of people feel a need to go to the site, It is a little strange to have a Disney World type line with Disney "Fast Passes" to get to front of the line. This is far from a theme park.
They have just arrived behind the usual trio of diesel locomotives.
-Stef
Yes they passed by me at Intervale Ave. I was in 6311 at the time.
I saw them @ Lindon Yard on Saturday Night. I had a work train out of there. I did not have time to posted it those.
Robert
Mike,
You think being a Conductor would get you into Linden Yard? I see a great photo opportunity here, if you knew when the cars were coming. Perhaps riding the train to the East would be too much to ask for.
-Stef
I don't see why not. The peopleat the gate only look to if the pass and to title on the pass. I would guess that there might be at least one train there during the week. But I am not shore on what days. I been to Linden Yard on different days of the weeks and only saw them this one time.
Robert
The TWU is circulating a petition in which the union is advocating that brand new (extra extra) employees be able to select via pick rights & seniority their days off, tour of duty, and one specific line to work on exclusively.
Let me tell you my opinion on the above:
Should extra extra employees be able to select a specific tour of duty in seniority order: Yes.
Should extra extra employees be able to select their days off (RDO's) in seniority order: Yes.
Should extra extra employees be able to select one specific line that they would be able to work on exclusively for the length of the pick in seniority order: ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
Why? Because restricting an employee to one specific line can have lasting negative effects on new T/O's. Yes, C/R's would also be affected, but to a far lesser extent than T/O's.
My reasons:
1) When an employee is extra extra, it gives him/her experience by being placed in jobs throughout the division. This is how you learn the job, by operating all different kinds of equipment, studying the terrain of the line, knowing which stations are "fast" stations so you can begin the braking sequence earlier, knowing where certain signals are that can pop up out of sight and trip you, etc. By having a T/O work one specific line, it denies the T/O the needed experience on all the different types of equipment/lines that the employee will need later on. The union complains that new T/O's aren't allowed to work in most yards, then they come out with this. DO YOU THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE? The quality of the workforce should not be diluted.
2) Picking a specific line doesn't mean that it will be better for the T/O. Right now, a typical extra extra employee can expect to start within a fairly decent distance from their residence about 3 times a week. Say for example I live by the Bay 50th Street station on the W line. Currently, I would get assignments on the W, Q, F, M, N out of South Brooklyn. Under the union's plan, I would have to select one specific line. So I take the W. If there isn't any available assignments on the Stillwell end of the line, or if they are all gone by the time they assign me, then I'd be forced to work out of Astoria. So not only would I be denied the experience of working different lines, but I'd STILL have to travel a long way to work.
3) What happens say if a T/O who is brand new picks the A line since he/she lives in Far Rockaway and remains there for the next 2 years while extra extra. The time comes when the T/O must pick a job, and the A line is all picked out (not a far fetched fact). Now the T/O not only must pick jobs on lines that he/she has never worked before outside one day of training, but he/she will be dealing with equipment that the T/O has absolutely no experience with. Could you imagine what could happen? Hitting a home ball? Overrunning a station? Worse?
4) By having a T/O assigned to one specific line, it can create problems when a different line becomes short-staffed. A T/O is extra board at Stillwell and has picked the W line. A job becomes open on the Q. According to the union person who was petitioning signatures, the extra extra person on the W would be ineligible to work the Q job. She says "Oh well, you'll just have to ABD (abandon) the interval". In other words, inconvenience the passengers. Nonsense, the Dispatcher's job is to avoid ABD's when possible. So the Dispatcher would just order a person who's already made his/her alloted trips and is now on WAA time to make an additional trip if he couldn't find another T/O for overtime. So the senior person would be inconvenienced on behalf of the junior person. Or on the other side, a person is extra board on the E at 12 noon. A job opens on the J at 1 pm, but he's ineligible. So instead of picking up the J job, he gets an E job that opens up at 5 pm. Not everyone wants a 13 to 14 hour day. I know that I don't.
Do you see why I did not sign the petition? If the union takes out the picked line section, then I'm all for it, but if the union presents the petition as is, the the TA should do the right thing with it and put it in the trash.
I heard of this petition and have other questions.
1) Since the XXL guarantees 12 hours off between tours, what will happen to those employees's rest periods?
2) Road extra employees have first right to open road jobs in the CBA. Will these "reclassified XXLs" bump those who picked lines and XLs to the yard? Since they won't allow the newbies to work the yards, will that force the issue of yard work not at road pay again?
3) When an extra extra person moves up enough to be able to pick a real road extra job, will they have the same power to stay on that line, especially when the road Extra person person can be shipped to another part of the division anyway as part of the existing contract?
I feel you did right by not signing it. Encourage others to do the same. I'm sure the union has other things in mind for our upcoming contract, and doesn't need petitions to tell them what to do.
The unions position is already written in stone. CI Peter
I am not very familiar with RTO workrules but it seems to me that it would also make it harder for a senior man to get a day off - if the pool of eligable extra-extra train operators were exhausted. Just sounds like one of those things the TWU wants just for the sake of making it harder to manage without any real benifit to the majority of the rank and file.
I don't believe the TWU sanctioned this. Perhaps we have a new New Directions forming now. I don't see the union demanding a plan that would put junior persons in a position of higher seniority that those who pick. The whole thing sounds like we have a newbie wout there who thinks they can do a better job than the incumbnants. If we really wanted to utilize XXL perons on a regular LINE, we would attempt to bring back picked Extra Board Jobs in the next contract. That would sop up the XXLs by creating new jobs on the rosters. The A line brought that back on the work program a couple of years ago, and those jobs work anywhere, including the A line. In the 1960s, there were picked Board jobs on every tour at every terminal, limited to work on that line. Featherbedding doesn't exist anymore at that rate as another poster stated.
There is already several new new directions forming.
The CI boys are one. Some of the others were never for Roger they were against James.
And yes a few of the Off The Street (OTS) T/O's.
The biggest issues there are health benefits for registerd domestic partners. More dues for a non-profit/not for profit to help out members with problems. Political activism more focus on transit related issues. More cooperation with management WITH the savings being split 50/50 and more concentration on work rules.
Really nothing will happen until the next contract is seen.
This is the first I've heard of this. I wonder if this petition was actually sanctioned by the union hierarchy, or if it was started by some disgruntled rookie who does not want to pay his dues?
From the literature which was distributed, it certainly appears to be sanctioned by TWU 100.
This is can't lose for the union. This is their hook for saying they are helping the off the street people and they hope that the probies and the TA buy it. They hope the TA will buy it to keep the OTS program going. But this is really to help the XL people.
By making it a petition they can cover their asses if the members hold a resentment toward the new people or don't care.
This will fail, no one is really pushing for signatures I saw it by accident.
BTW all three of my classmates that I have talked to are NOT signing it.
From TWU experience from thirty years ago, your analysis seems closest to realityville. Back in my day, there was a splinter group that I lashed up with called "Rank and File" which consisted mostly of new hires - black and hispanic that challenged the old line over safety rules, sloppy operation and bad equipment repeatedly getting sent out, opposition to split shifting and all the gnarlies that came with extra. Dunno how it all turned out, but the two groups and their constant bickering pretty much turned the TWU into the mush it is today. Another time when a lot of people were retiring and kids like me were getting hired up much to the anger of folks who had been on the railroad a long time and OWNED it. We all got tired of the routine screwings. I'd bet there's some similar behaviors going on and this is the "regulars" trying to absorb the dissenters by feigning interest.
This petition hurts the XXL people as much as it helps.
There is a D and an L person on the midnights so if those lines can support an XL person daily at those hours, any line can.
Also this would not mean that every XXL person would get to pick some would get North or south or more intelligently Cont to cover 179, PA and Cont or daytimes 168 to cover 207, Bedford, 168 and 145.
There is a statistical predictibility to all this it just would be nice if the let some of the staff benefit. For example there are ALWAYS enough open Brooklyn jobs so that no one there should have to leave the boro ditto the Bronx.
The downside is this would throw us out of the yard and switching jobs which is why the union would get involved. The XL and XL work train people signed petition about 1-2 months ago to throw us out of the yards so they would not fall to road jobs and the board.
That said it would likely help me. Since we met face to face, things have gotten much worse for me. At this point I get my home area once a week and only on the board. I have no car and think it is nuts that I would have to get one to work for mass transit.
I get ping-ponged on my shift so that at least 2-3 days I get home have 1/2 and hour sleep wake up have 1/2 an hour then have to got to work. Today is a treat I did have a few hours to myself and even got to take a bath instead of a shower which was nice as I had 5 uninterupted hours of cab time yesterday.
No, it's you old farts being two faced. It's really the union. See other message as to why.
"So the Dispatcher would just order a person who's already made his/her alloted trips and is now on WAA time to make an additional trip if he couldn't find another T/O for overtime"
Union reps are all about increasing the total payroll thus incresing union dues(line thier pockets)This is not in the interest of the working man or the consummers utilizing TA services.
Hey, r-142 if you are such a college educated hotshot, how come ALL of your posts have spelling or grammatical errors.
Grew up in the age of spell checkers
More of an engineering guy anyway
Thus the interest in the subways
Been facinated since a littel boy back in the 80's
Always in front of the rail fan window
You are taking the quote out of context. If you read the whole statement, you would see Zman was using the example of an employee being ordered to make an extra trip on a line at Stillwell which does not have an extra board guy siting around doing nothing, whereas another line does have a guy sitting around, yet he would not be required to do the trip because of the new rule. Is that productive? Of course not! You are paying somebody overtime while you have an extra board guy availiable for another line!
Am I hearing the union members themselves complaining about featherbedding?
The anal-sphicters-in-charge tend to be real anal-sphincters. They like to whip those under them with their loud-labia or teeny-weeny-peenies.
From my perverted point of view, I'd assemble of jury of regular subway riders to decide these questions (yank them off the train, assure them they are not gonna get fired, assure them they are not gonna suffer financial problems, and let the cop who tells them this visit their employer and put the fear of Railfan in them. And yeah, this is how the subways should work: by the pleasure of the riders!
A lot to do with it is simply that you want to go home at the scheduled end of your shift and not be stuck making an extra unscheduled trip. I'll never forget the Saturday when I was on my last trip to Stillwell D and I got turned at Brightom Beach on the last half trip, got sent back uptown to do another trip and had to work another 4 hours. My wife was going thru a very difficult pregnancy at the time and this one day was feeling decent and made a nice roast beef dinner which she ate by herself while I got home 4 hours late.
I agree with this post.
Even if you pick a line (something the TA would never go for) you are still subject to being yanked elsewhere just like XL people.
This is a two fold attempt to pretend that New Directions is trying to help us (which they never have before) and help the XL and work train XL people stay off the road and the board and in the yards and switching.
>>>>>>>>>>Even if you pick a line (something the TA would never go for) you are still subject to being yanked elsewhere just like XL people
There are instances where other lines cannot touch you. Sometimes, you'll see a job on the assignment sheets that say: "Extra Board 6 Line- Do Not Pull". In other words, you would be property of the 6 line for the day. For one person to be subjected to that is one thing though. Obviously, the TA won't go for it, but it does make me wonder where the union is truly heading if indeed this was union sanctioned, as it "appeared" to be.
As it turns out is might be a give back LOL. The union filled a greivance to get the TA to issue more XL tricks as per contract. The board is supposed to be only for new employees not in the system at the time the pick list comes out PER CONTRACT.
That petition is WORSE for most XXL people than the current set up. I think me and the guys at the top of the XXL would be the only ones to benefit.
>>>>>>>>I think me and the guys at the top of the XXL would be the only ones to benefit.
Au contraire, it would be worse for you. With the union's plan, you'd still be behind the T/O's with seniority, and your RDO's would be T/W or W/T and no better than that. Even though it didn't work out for you this pick, XX's now see RDO's like S/S or S/M. Apparently under this plan, there would be 0% of that happening since the T/O's with more seniority would snap it up since the extra list would have slots added on instead of having a separate XX list. And AM's could be much tougher to get too.
This plan in no way benefits the XX guys. Leave it as it is.
Now you mean the contract or the petition?
With the new pick I have had the worst assignments and the worst locations. I really can't see how it can get worse.
North or Queens works for me I live in the South. If I get an N it's a KHhy N. If they are nice and give a Queens job it's out of STL.
They gave the guys in classes after me AMs, S/S and Queens/North jobs.
With the petition plan I would gladly give up the yard and switching to get rid of my commutes which only makes sense becasue I am getting shafted. Under expanding the XL I'd have 200+ people behind me with jobs, there is no way I could not pick Queens.
Your assumption in my case is wrong, I do not get a decent location 3 times a week. I was assigned road jobs locally 3 times this past month. I live near 6 lines and got 3 local jobs in one month. No one I have talked to has done that poorly.
Wannabe, do this today:
Write a G2 addressed to the Div. B Crew Assignment Co-ordinator, or ask to speak to the person on the phone, or for better shock value, go there in person and tell him/her your situation. It's already bad for you, and could not get worse. I mean, you can't go further than Stillwell now can you? The worst thing that could happen is that the trend continues, you've got NOTHING to lose.
Either that, or do nothing and keep travelling downtown.
Also, did you enter any vacancy bids? A lot of times, the PM and MID RDO relief jobs go unbid.
Lastly if nothing works, put in a request to pick a job in the A division. You might get lucky and get the 7 line. Or nothing will suit you, you pick nothing and you'll stay in the B div. Then again, all the jobs may be gone, but it's obvious that you've got to go to Plan B.
I did try it. At the time I was getting the Bronx/207 5 days a week.
Now I get Brooklyn. LOL.
In fairness, I have had 2 Manhattan GO jobs and they have not given me the board outside of Queens hence my few breaks.
The last time I went down there, I got pingponged 9pm, 1pm, 9pm until I booked off. I could not sleep after that.
I will try once more but there is a reason I was asking about PATH jobs.
You have to pay your dues and bide your time. I've been a motorman for 18 years and I've been through it, too. One day extra board at 2AM picking up an AM job, the next day at 11PM and follow that up with a 3AM road job the following day. None of the reports near home. It does not last forever. This is the nature of the job. We were warned about this in school car. They told us suck it up or find another job.
I have not seen the petition you are talking about on the 7 line but if it makes it over here I would tear it up and throw it in the garbage. Your best interest are not being served by working exclusively on one line while you are new. The only way to learn the system (and your job) is by operating all lines and yards and all types of equipment at various hours. This way you get to experience differen G.O.'s and moves that can be made, etc. You will become a more savy motorman instead of someone who becomes married to one line and afraid to work anyplace else.
It's not fair for you to call anyone an old fart. They paid their dues and now there seeing the benefits of seniority. Now it's your turn.
It IS unfair to assume it was someone new. It IS an official union thing. It IS a cynical attempt to gain loyalty after they did some pretty messed up things to us.
Did I say I was in favor of this? I said I would benefit and that is only because I am getting an unusally short end of the stick. Do talk to the other new T/Os?
BTW 11PM and 3 AM and far from home would be an IMPROVEMENT for me. Try 1pm, 9pm, 5pm ish, 1pmish, 9pm
Just curious but did you submit a G2 to the crew office for a change of tour. It was my experience that there was always a need for people to work midnights.
I have sent G2's to wallpaper a house before and after the pick. They changed my shift/rdo to my very last choice. Midnights T/W was near the top of my list. My all time favorite experince was when my mom was coming out of the hospital and I requested an early starting job for one day so I could pick her up, of course I got a late penalty job.
I had a little problem on the road. I told them it was not my fault, please drop it, they said sure it is. I said please really just drop this and I convinced one TSS that I was OK but no one else was buying.
I found out later that I was not taken OOS immediately was probably because no one was around.
The way I proved it was not obvious at first but when I did is sort of banged in something they did (control) that was UNSAFE, I suggested something that would get us both of the hook and that was not appreciated. Then they said I was guilty of something else and I had to bang in something else (not a person but something else unsafe that was going on). For whatever reason I was right or I am off the street the whole thing dropped. And the next assignment I got 3 days later involved another boro and a shift change. Bad luck, coincidence, who cares.
So besides from them having the nickname sCrew office and my little trouble it has also been suggested privately that someone here banged me in for saying less than flattering things about things I have seen.
If you put enough of my posts together or had access to TA internal stuff you would know who I am.
It is extra tiring but I am starting to expect it. Also I worked 90+ hours a week at a previous job so it is more getting used to the nature of being a T/O then the hours. I bought a 2000 pg history of Islam and a 800 page history of India and am using my time to imporve my mind.
I do disagree that being thrown lots of curves makes a better T/O. All of the oldtimers insist it was the yard time that made them good T/Os not the road time. They could refine their operating style where no passengers were around and they got to handle B/O equipment without 1000 onlookers.
I was told too bad very politely by Ms. Crawford of the crew office. She seems very patient but she likely gets this a lot.
I did get to banish any paranoid notions. Apparently the way they crew Brooklyn is where my name comes up in the alphabet and that is how they assign me.
The reality is all you are to the crew office is a pass number. When I was new (all right, 20 years ago!), the BMT and the IND had seperate crew dispatchers working with paper and pencil. They knew you and cared where you lived and tried their best to keep you close to home. If you lived uptown, they tried to keep you uptown, and so forth. Today with their computer, all they do is put a pass number into open job number. The most demoralising thing I see the crew office do to people who work off the list, and this applies to regular extra list as well, on your first day back after your RDO they give you a job with the earliest possible starting time for your shift, and on your last day, getaway day, they give you the latest possible reporting time they can find. You feel like you lost one of your RDO's! I've seen where regular extra list guys with S/M off, get a GO road job on a Saturday starting at 9 PM! Perhaps you will pick a job for the spring, lousy as it is, but at least you may have an idea of a window of working hours. Hang in there!
This is the first week in a whiles where I did not get board on my monday or friday. You are so right about early monday jobs and late friday one.
Besides the petition you will see in your next union paprer that the union is challanging the XXL contractually. The XXL is supposed to be for people hired between picks not for 1.5 years+.
A lot of retiremnets last pick so if it holds i pick if it was a spike I have to last unitl the December/January pick.
It's tough and true and we have to pay our dues and old farts get the extras and Tony in Shape Up says the barns are all alike...the best ones are the closest to you. Problem in the system is that the hard working and responsible are on the same footing as the stupid and slackers. TA acknowledges timeliness and attendance...not brains and skill. We are the NEW DIRECTION of TA...RTO, CED, CTA. We are probationary employees and know how good this work is. We will pay our dues and be the best TA could ever get BUT we have all been warned NOT to be victims of the 'old farts' and their stupid stunts. OUR employment is of great value and we newbies have all made sacrifices for this new work. Nuff said. CI Peter
Apperently, I was already entitled contractually to pick shift and RDO, the union just never asked the TA to enforce it.
The petition is in the Woodlawn Crew room. No one has signed it as of 10PM Monday. There where more jokes about it then anything.
When I go to Dyre I'll find out more because I run into 3 active Union Reps. One of the two is a New Directions rep.
Thats Right! If the Union does get its way the sweet Extra Extra slots would be for anyone to pick. I don't see how being Extra Extra on one line is going to work. If that does happen who do you think will pick the No.5 Line AM Extra S/S off? I know I would!
Then the New guys will just fall under the Extra List ( XL ) where they can go anywhere in the section or left over jobs with T/W that no one in there right mind would pick.
Interesting assessment, Z. You bring up some interesting points.
Didn't they have something like this a pick or two ago? They had pick jobs were people sat on the board at a given location until a job came up either there or someplace else. Is this what the union wants to give the extra extras?
I just saw the notice from the TWU in the crew room at 168th Street on Tuesday. I asked a few of the crews about it and the sentiment seems to be similar to yours. Not everybody is happy about it.
I was undecided on it, but you've definitely given me some food for thought.
Actually it is in the contract.
I have talked to some of the higher-ups in the union and it turns out that what the union's goal is for every T/O and C/R to be able to pick a job. In other words, if they are 2483 T/O's in the system, then the union wants 2483 jobs created. It is in the contract so the union has a shot to win the grievance.
When I had brought up my objections, the union said that that was not what they had been looking for, they don't want to cause any problems. All they want is for an XX guy to be able to select an assignment instead of being run willy-nilly all over the place as is currently done.
In light of this, I now support it and will sign the petition. The union flyer I guess could have been written a little differently.
TWU has always been their own worst enemy in worrying about organizational issues at the meetings instead of dispensing the meat to the membership. THANKS for digging the meat out of that calzone! I'm sure active members will appreciate your efforts there. Pity they couldn't put it THAT straightforward in a leaflet ...
They have another leafet with the info.
But this is more to help the XL people and that is why they are pursuing it. Some of my classmates have SS ams.
The upshot whill be more vacancy bids by the end of the pick there is just craziness.
Wow ... I *do* agree that everybody should have a job number - sitting on the bleechers can get tired fast. Even back in MY days as a rookie, there WAS a pick for every pass number - it's just that many of those were split-shifters and half the day as WAA ... layups, diversions and gap fill ... at least you got to sit in a cab pulling your chain instead of doing it on a wooden bench. :)
My job will be XL but at least it won't be the south every day. I have enough people behind me for that and no 3 against the wall to Far Rock.
And I can get back my beloved midnights.
Heh. It *is* quieter then and a whole lot less to pull air over. :)
Glad to hear you got off the floor so fast!
Well in theory I am off in practice I am at the very bottom.
Soon a fresh school car will ABD on the platform and you'll be moving up. It does chew the biscuit in the bottom of the barrel. That "XL" and "XXL" thing was always intended as a spot for those who JUST came in before they got a pick. And amusingly, back in my day there were more JOBS than there were people picking them which meant the remainder would be broken off into "day jobs" and picked as overtime. Wonder what happened?
>>>Some of my classmates have SS ams. <<<
What is that?
Peace,
ANDEE
Working an AM shift with Sunday/Saturday off.
>>> All they want is for an XX guy to be able to select an assignment instead of being run willy-nilly all over the place as is currently done. In light of this, I now support it and will sign the petition <<<
But this is the very thing that you said was bad previously. You said that it was necessary to have the new guys run willy-nilly all over the place in order to properly learn the job with different operating conditions throughout the system. What changed?
Tom
I felt riding the subway today, so I went over to Dyre Avenue, and found out the train was going to Times Square, I ask the T/O he told me that the train was going to Times Square,because of track work at Wall Street on the Lexington Avenue line.Nothing was mentioned until we get to 149th. Street station, the conductor announces that the Dyre Avenue train will go down the westside, and the 2 train will go down the east side, why he waited to we get to this stop to make this annoucement, I'll never know. We traveled down the westside, some people looked suprised that a 5 train,was running, It was nice that ran down the express track, The old redbird was flying, and rocking until we got past 50th street, and the T/O slammed on his brakes for the timers, I think he wasnt used to being on the westside!!I caught the 5 train back to Dyre Avenue. The westside ride uptown was kind of weird, I saw a 3 train on the local track uptown, A R-142 2 train on the downtown track at 96 street.At 149th street Grand Concourse, we waited for a R-142 coming down through the curve from 138th street.
The conductor did not announce the change in service till 149th St. simply because if he did so at every station the doors would be held at virtually every station, with constant questions being asked. The crew wanted to be on time at 149th. The TA wants the trains on time, the crew has to explain to the dispatcher the lateness and passenger questions are not a valid excuse for lateness. The train crew does not make the rules, only complies. Sorry!
I'm sure that you must have gotten the feeling that the train wasn't going to stop or more like "Gee!, I'm glad that it stayed on the tracks."
#3 West End Jeff
As a total aside, an overheard quote at Fulton Street Manhattan on Saturday from a disgruntled #2 rider who had just been kicked off the train there:
"There was absolutely no sign about this anywhere in Brooklyn."
I don't know if this is true or if she just wasn't paying attention.
It was the latter. There were signs everywhere and platform C/Rs at Nevins. The same thing happened Sat. nite. My R142 2 train pulls into 14St-US, I made my annoucements, which Ive been doing from Franklin Ave, closed down when this lady comes running and screaming that she thought this was a regular 2 train. When I told her that annoucements were made loud and clear, her response was: "I was reading my book." End of story. I just told her to go upstairs and get the N,Q,R to Times Square to get to the west side. But when observing the platform, I also observed that she stood there looking as dumb as ever.
There were signs in Brooklyn, at least where I was waiting at Atlantic. I don't know about other stations.
I'm a bit surprised the signs at Atlantic didn't direct passengers straight to the Q.
What's the point in making such an announcement early? Anyone who saw the destination signs would have early notice, in any case.
The Redbird express was great. I rode it at the railfan window five times in the past two weeks. By the time the 2 returns to express service, I doubt it will have any Redbirds left.
West side local and express service was totally erratic. There were 2's on the express and 2's on the local. There were 3's on the express and 3's on the local. (I didn't see any 1's on the express -- north of 14, that is -- but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few.) It's amazing how haphazardly that line is run.
One T/O (not C/R) on the 5 made an excellent announcement at 149-GC. It was clear, detailed, and witty. There was only problem -- it was for the prior week's GO! Service on the 5 was the same, but service on the 4 was totally different.
I'm also trying to figure out how 1's were supposed to turn at Chambers. I had thought that, during the day, they'd be using the SB local track while 2's would be running through on the SB express track (which would explain why all 1's were running express from Chambers to 14 -- from the SB local track, the NB local track is inaccessible). In fact, many 1's were terminating on the SB express track -- in one case, a 1 was sent to the express track even though (a) the local track was empty and (b) a 2 was right behind it. (When the 2 finally arrived, it picked up the loads of three or four 1's -- apparently, this GO was used as an excuse to increase 2 headways for the weekend.) Even the 1's on the express track ran local back up to 14. If this arrangement had been planned from the start, it would have made more sense, IMO, to keep the NB local stations open but to warn passengers that alternate trains would run express.
Is there other cities beside Chicago that has a rapid transit system with grade crossings (excluding LRT)?
The 14th Street BMT Line Had a Grade Crossing Up Until 1973, At the East 105th Street Station.
Miami Metrorail has one, but it's within a set of chain-link gates (eg work property). Don't remeber if it has a gate on it or not.
Not in North America. Don't know about overseas. It occurs to me that in Germany, where they have different levels of Metro-style operations, you might have something you could consider a non-LRT rapid transit system with grade crossings.
Paul
I was surprised you did not say anything about the SIRT have grade crossings until 1969.
Phil Hom
Phil, I thought he meant current systems.
If we go into the past, we have BRT, SIRT and the H&M. I can't think of any others. Would you count rapid transit operatons of the LIRR?
Paul
I guess we can also count interurban systems too! What does the the orginal poster define as "Metro"? Midwestern systems are noted as "Rapids" (CTA,CTS). Almost everyone else has a "subway". I can think of the Muni Metro, MetroRail, and the LA Metro. But SF is a light rail system but is it a "Metro". Europe has pre-Metro systems, Light rail in tunnels that can convert to heavy rail standards.
This is a bit confusing over a 5 letter word - METRO.
Phil, I know what you mean. It's difficult to define an American system by an originally non-US term.
I took it to mean a traditional subway/el type rapid transit system, and he specifically said not light rail, so I answered on that basis. Otherwise you might have to bring in all sorts of "almosts." Like what would you do with the Liberty Bell Limiteds, which ran on the high-level third rail P&W, and went to grade crossings just north of the Norristown terminal? I know that's a stretch, but it's the stuff of loooonnnng threads. ;-)
Sort of like the Miami example, but maybe worth mentioning, I believe that there is a driveway (probably for WMATA service vehicles) that crosses over the tracks just south of the Grosvenor station on Metro's Red Line (Shady Grove leg) in DC.
It is an interesting area because from downtown (heading toward Shady Grove) the line exits very deep bored tunnels virtually directly onto an elevated structure that spans a large intersection of the Capital Beltway (I-495) and then lands back on the ground (past this so-called grade crossing) to the Grosvenor station in a very shallow cut. There is a third middle track extending into the tunnel north of the station as every other rush hour and midday train turns here for the shorter run to Silver Spring.
Los angeles there is one... & one under construction.
the long beach blue line is one ..
the pasadena gold line ( construction ) is the other ...
This is a example etc..............lol!
los angeles metro has 2
long beach blue line
Frustration is a major part of life for railroaders. There are times that I firmly believe the railroad gods and those who claim to actually being the ones who run the railroads set out on a course to see just how much frustration they can beset upon us before somebody finally goes postal and shoots up the place. This too, is very likely the reason behind the rule that prohibits employees from possessing or carrying firearms on the property unless their duties require it, such as the railroad police. It is also the biggest reason some high-ranking railroad officials have bodyguards. They are not afraid of being kidnapped by some nut group, they are afraid the help will drag them off against their wills and perform unspeakably wicked and dastardly acts of aggression and vengeance upon these folks.
It is what dreams are made of.
Now to make sure I don’t get a call from the FBI or some other government agency about such plots, let me state up front that I do not condone such activities. However, that doesn’t mean that over the years I haven’t daydreamed about it in super slow motion from 90 different camera angles as if it was something directed by the likes of Francis Ford Coppola. Remember my comments some time back about the fantasy of seeing a certain official succumbing to blunt force trauma on my office desk during my Trainmaster days?
I wouldn’t really do something like that as it is wrong for many reasons. Being a guest of the Government at a well-known "Retreat" along the Hudson River in Upstate New York is one of them. And I’ve been told that five to ten at that Kansas "Retreat" called Leavenwoth is not at all akin to the five and ten at Woolworth.
Frustration comes in many forms on the railroad. One of the biggest is the lack of useful information as to when we will actually go to work. This industry has invested 20 bazillion dollars in technology. They boast about being able to tell shippers where their cars are located in real time at any time. However, all this technology cannot seem to process information as to when I might go to work on a given day.
Here on the CNIC, we have a computer response system that can tell me where I stand in the line-up, a line up of trains that may run and suggested times these alleged trains may be called. This system is by no means to be taken as gospel. It is subject to the whims of the railroad gods as well as numerous other factors and variables. Those factors and variables may include no rested and available Conductors. No power is available to move the train. Yards are so congested that there is no hope of this train coming close to being ready at the projected time. Then there are clogged main lines and sidings that result in bad meets and excessive delays to trains enroute. And finally the always popular, "We decided not to move this train today." This one usually saved for late in the evening after hearing that it would be run all through the day and evening.
First, we’ll focus on no rested Conductors. The computer does not have the capabilities to tell me that there are no Conductors available. It does not tell me that my regular Conductor has marked off sick, personal business, personal leave, vacation day, bereavement or whatever reason they have selected in order to take the day off. It also does not tell me there are no rested Conductors available for the next eight or ten hours.
Second, the system does not tell me they have available people but no motive power handy to move the train. In an industry where we cannot move freight without power, one would think they would make a concerted effort to have sufficient motive power in position and available to move trains. But that is just what I think. Again, what do I know?
The system also doesn’t seem to update for trains enroute that have fallen behind the so-called schedule. It seems that a time goes into the system and it is then cast in concrete never to change. The system tells you that such and such train is slated to run at say, 2015 hours. It is now 2010 hours, the train is hundreds of miles away from your terminal with no possible hope of moving at the time stated, but the system does not know this and keeps reiterating its claim of 2015 hours. If the train were to really move at 2015 hours, I would have received a personal invitation from my friendly, neighborhood Crew Caller long about 1815 hours requesting the honor of my presence at the said 2015 time to play railroad for yet another day.
This dilemma is by no means restricted just to where I work. I hear these very same complaints from railroaders I know all over the country that work for all the major players as well as some of the smaller operations. This situation is by no means unique or peculiar to any one railroad. And contrary to what we are constantly being told, it doesn’t seem to be getting any better. In some cases, it actually seems to be getting worse.
In many cases, I avoid the frustration of the alleged know-it-all computer response system and opt for human intervention; I call the Caller directly. It is in my speed dial and home and on the trusty wireless. Depending upon how many other folks have chosen this option and how many trains and crews the Caller has to call before they answer my call, I get to listen to the phone ring, and ring and ring and ring. Our system is designed so that a no answer within three minutes results in the system hanging up on you. I guess this is doing us a favor so that we don’t develop cauliflower ear or something as we hold that phone next to our heads for hours on end.
So after something like 60,983 rings (and hitting the re-send button 1300 or so times on the phone), I get a real live human being. I ask them what it looks like. They give me one of several programmed responses ranging from "I have no idea," to "they are planning on calling this train at any minute." This response is a personal favorite as it almost has a real meaning. Almost. If you all recall, I have mentioned on numerous occasions in the past the fact there is absolutely no correlation between real time and railroad time. Real time is "east", railroad time is "west" and believe me, absolutely never shall these twain meet, even by accident. I believe there is a law on the books that prohibits it from occurring.
If I had a dollar bill for every time I was told "They are planning to call you any minute", I would be basking in the sun in some tropical paradise surrounded by numerous young island girls to fulfill my every wish and desire. See I’m not greedy, I am just asking for ones. Had I asked for and received say tens or twenties, I would make the likes of Donald Trump, Bill Gates and all those big-time oil sheiks look poor and destitute.
I have been told "any minute" over the course of an entire day beginning at 0900 and through most of the evening on numerous occasions. Then when the call finally does come at say 2200 hours that evening, it is for a different train altogether. The "any minute" train seems to have lost its shimmer. And now I have been awake for some fourteen hours and am expected to be wide awake and ready to work all night on no sleep.
Then, there are the trains that seem to just fall out of the sky and land on the rail all ready to depart without any warning. It is as if Mr. Scott on the Starship Enterprise activated the transporter and beamed down a train onto the railhead. It just appeared out of nowhere. Now this is quite the magical feat the likes of which would baffle even Harry Blackstone Jr. In fact, I’m willing to bet Penn and Teller could never be able to do one of their famous exposes on how magic tricks really work as they too, would not be able to figure this ingenious feat out.
It really is magic.
I have been told "Nothing showing" on hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of occasions over the years only to have the Caller ring me up maybe twenty minutes later with one of these magical trains that has appeared out of nowhere. On many occasions, we have stepped out for a bite of dinner only to have the pager go off about the time we walk into the restaurant. Back in my single days. There was many the time that I was told point blank "You will not work tonight" only to have the pager go off about the time I picked up my date.
This past December, there were two occasions I will recount. The beautiful bride, one of our friends and I stepped out for dinner. As it would happen, it was my birthday and we decided to have a nice meal out. I had talked to the caller earlier and was informed I would not be going to work before 2100 hours. We walk into the restaurant about 1715 and lo and behold, the pager begins it vibration to alert me that somebody really desires a phone call from me. I look down and see the familiar 1-800 number that connects me to the Desk One Caller.
Hmm, they only missed it by one hour, forty-five minutes. I decided that I was having dinner first and told the caller that I would be there, but I might be a couple of minutes late. I was, but it wasn’t by much. Certainly not the amount that might have me appearing before "Mr. Microphone" at an investigation.
On Christmas Day, I called the Caller around 1300 hours and was told we would be going out later, like around 2000 to 2200 hours. Cool! That means I can be like the civilians and enjoy Christmas dinner with some relatives. After the Christmas 1999 debacle where they called us to work for 1500 hours and we then sat for hours as our train wasn’t ready, I figured I had the chance to see how the other half lives this year.
About 1505 we were getting ready to start sitting down to dinner when the pager begins doing the vibration tango. WHAT!? I look down and sure enough, there is the number of the Desk One Caller displayed. I started to look for a Crucifix to direct at the pager, sort of like they did in all those Dracula movies to keep old Drac at bay. It didn’t work. So I called the Caller.
I was informed of a grain train at 1700 hours. Oh no you don’t! I told the caller there was no possible way I could make it. I explained that the information given earlier was that we would go much later. Like a dope I made the foolish mistake of actually believing the times I was told. I told the Caller there was no possible way I could come close to even being there on time as we had traveled some distance to be with family for dinner. I could not leave now, get home, change and grab all my stuff for work and be there on time, or even anywhere remotely near the time requested.
I had to mark off on call. This was the first time in my over five years with the IC and CNIC that I have had to resort to this. They do not like or appreciate such behavior. In fact, they show marking off on call the same as a missed call. Unfortunately, I had to do it. They me up against a wall and I did what had to be done to get away from it. I certainly wasn’t happy about it, but here’s something to ponder; just how hot was this train that it had to be moved at 1700 on Christmas Day? Chances are that like 1999’s episode, this train would get to Champaign and then sit for hours there so as not to disrupt Christmas for the those nice folks.
Yesterday was a real shining example. The trusty computer as well as the Yardmaster at Champaign told us of an approaching grain train. The computer told of a 2320 ETA for the train. Fully expecting to get this train, I didn’t attempt to go back to sleep. I had awoken at 1200 or so this day and wasn’t the least bit sleepy. I sat there in the evening after a walk over to the nearby Market Place Mall for some exercise and watched a couple of movies on TV. At 0045, the call finally came, only not for the grain train. Instead, we got an empty coal train coming from Norfolk Southern. We had to cab up to Kankakee to get the train, take it to Clinton, IL via the Gilman Line and then cab back home to Markham.
Numerous delays and then a motive power failure led to us not making it all the way to Clinton. It did result in a 14 plus hour day though when all was said and done.
At some point, we will look at enroute failures in motive power and equipment and how frustrating that can be too.
"And now for something completely different."
I had made mention in the Santa Train piece last month that we had a grand total of five thousand visitors to the train in 2000. I erred in that figure; It was actually around 3300 visitors. This year though (2001), we eclipsed last year’s figures significantly. Our total count this year was around four thousand visitors. We were quite pleased although I think Santa’s lap may be a little worse for wear. Being that he is a resilient old elf, I know that Santa did make a full recovery in time for his big Christmas Eve run.
I would like to thank those of you that subscribe to Hot Times who took the time and made the effort to come out and say hello. Some of you came from considerable distance to be there and your efforts were greatly appreciated. Hope you all had as much fun as we did.
And again, I would like to extend a great deal of thanks to the management team of the CNIC Midwest Division as well as the staff of the Mechanical Department at Woodcrest for their continued support and cooperation in the Santa Train. Without them, none of this would be possible.
I hope all of you had a safe, healthy and joyous Holiday Season.
Here is hoping that 2002 is a great year for all of you and that the events of September 11, 2001 will never be repeated. And also, here is hoping that with this, Hot Times on the High Iron is once again, back on track.
And so it goes,
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2002.
Mike, seeing as how you enjoy Tuch's stories, you would probably enjoy reading a book that I just finished entitled Set Up Running: The Life of a Pennsylvania Railroad Engineman, 1904-1949 by John W. Orr (son of the engineer). It makes a rather interesting read, although I wonder if it's really as accurate as it portends to be (there are a couple of glaring errors in non-railroad references that I know much more about than I do the railroad stuff). It was just published this past year by Penn State University Press.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So you have an ISBN number?
The ISBN is 0-271-02056-3.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
is it just me, or did the r68's on the Sea Beach line (when they were there) smell better than the r68a's? Whenever i compare the west end r68a's to the Sea Beach r68's, i notice that the Sea Beach trains smell really good, kinda like scented cleaning stuff, whereas the r68a's smell like crap. anyone else notice this also?
You smell that Sea Beach air.
Perhaps the floors were just mopped. They use some kind of lemon scented cleaner.
But this is every time! you mean to tell me that they never clean the r68a's on the W? I guess i shouldn't be surprised at that....
Maybe when you ride a train of R-68As, you happen to get on a train of dirty cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Hi folks
I'm back.
Did I ever tell you folks that I actually go around kicking garbage off my beloved N train...ocassionally, I also ask people to pick up their garbage (well, if they look approachable)...by the way, I also take part in donating to Bette Midlers foundation for cleaning up NY parks, so remember to give a little if you receive something in the mail. Back to the beloved N...
The N train won the cleanest train award for 98 & 99.
The Straphangers concluded that in 1999 or so, 99% of trains in teh Srping were clean...a whopping 100% in the Summer of 99.
Hence, the N trains are cleaner. The people are nicer, certainly more civilzed...
I was on a CI D train around 8PM a few months back and a woman with her three kids were eating crab. Yes, crab. I was unfortunately sitting near them and had to dodge crab shells...
I was on a W train and this couple were eating fresh peanuts...again, I was dodging peanut shells....
I was also on the West End B train a long time ago and this man was clipping toe-nails...yes, toe nails...
I'm sorry, but a lot of West End & Brighton folks are loud, messy, and have no sense of courtesy or manners....I said a lot, not all...
I really don't see a lot of that by the time the 86th bound N reaches the Sea Beach portion...and if there are noisy or messy people on the N, they usually get off at 36th St for the West End or at Dekalb for Brighton.
Seabeach53
In the first sentence you state that you actually kick garbage off the N train. Where does it go? To the platform or tracks?
There is the occasional problem of some person leaving their newspaper or the newspaper is all over the floor like a bird cage. There were times where I saw people eating hot meals, but they clean up after themselves. Like there was a time a person had chicken wings in some sauce, it smelled good, but he held the garbage, and took it with him when he left.At least you didn't see the homeless guy on the West End leaning on the window with a nasty green thing coming out of his nose.
I really don't see a lot of that by the time the 86th bound N reaches the Sea Beach portion...and if there are noisy or messy people on the N, they usually get off at 36th St for the West End or at Dekalb for Brighton.
...lol
Good to have you back SeaBeach 53 and to have a little more class on this site. I love hearing you talk about your beloved N train. But where the hell have you been the past two months, and the same for Go N Train. I have had to fight the subway battles by myself against those sloppy Brightons or the disgusting F'ers. The West Enders? Well they have some good qualities. Stay on board this time because the Fred and Bob show is about to resume and with it the Sea Beach vs Brighton wars. One thing to remember, though. When the IRT gets drawn into it we close ranks until we dispose of those Bronx orientated fools, then resume our own warfare. Welcome back.
LOL, Fred. I was gone for maybe half of December, but came back at the end of it. I didn't really post into topics of the N train. I noticed that SeaBeach 53 has been gone for a while though. Either way, welcome back.
I saw a lot worse than that on a southbound N of R27/30s in summer of 1969. It was so bad I don't want to describe it on this board. I never saw that on a Brighton train, and I was that quite a bit more.
That was one of the things my friend said! He's a West End rider and complains about the W as do I. I remember this one time on a W and the thing smelled like actual sh*t. It was as if someone brought their dog on the train and it had to go. After moving to the other end of the car, it could still be smelled. BTW, the N trains are cleaned with Pine Sol. You could imagine how many bottles I bought after finding that out.
I've been in cars that smelled like p*ss, let alone sh*t. Sometimes I've been on cars that have smelled nice and clean also.
#3 West End Jeff
The 68's, like the 62A's, always had a distinct "clean" smell from the AC's while the Kawasaki cars (62, 68A) had no odor, so you smell everything else.
Hippos love to wallow in the water, Rinos & elephants use dirt, maybe that has something to do with it ? ... sorry, it's been a long time since I threw some mud at the Hippos.
Mr rt__:^)
If new lines are built, what should they be? Other lines except for the second Ave. line.
Before any new lines, I'd like to see the Queens lines extended past their current termini. The N to LGA, the 7 to Bayside, the F past 179th (to the county line, possibly) and the E to wherever it was intended to go originally.
Dan
I'd like to see a lot of things done, but I realise that those who control the monetary purse strings feel that rail transit construction is no worth the financial investment.
Before any new lines, I'd like to see the Queens lines extended past their current termini. The N to LGA, the 7 to Bayside, the F past 179th (to the county line, possibly) and the E to wherever it was
intended to go originally.
Sounds good to me. I'd continue the (N) well past LGA, over (or under) Flushing Bay, through College Point, Whitestone, and ending in Bay Terrace. The (7) I'd run to Little Neck. The (F) I'd take to the Nassau line on Hillside. The (E) I'd take to Laurelton or Rosedale if possible, perhaps with a merge with the Liberty Ave (A).
For new lines, I'll create another post....
:-) Andrew
OOOH! One more extension: (3) (Or (1)) from New Lots down Linden Blvd then Conduit Ave to JFK Airport, and maybe beyond.
:-) Andrew
Then you'll like my expansion plan. You can leave your e-mail address here or you can e-mail me at dlamond27@yahoo.com if you're interested.
O. BMT under IND, from City Hall BMT, via Broadway, underneath East River to things which mean things what we want.
Chicago.
Could PATH be extended that far west from Newark?
:0)
Yeah, but it'd probably be a horribly expensive fare zone.
Was'nt that a planned proposal at one time? Iremember reading somewhere the P.A was looking into this,but drop the ball.... does anyone here remember this also?
To Chicago? I severly doubt it. Further into Jersey? Maybe.
:-) Andrew
LOL.....
Same goes for Philadelphia.
Mark
Extend the 7 train!!! Think about it: NYC to Chicago for $1.50!!!
Of course, I don't know if I could sit on a redbird seat for that long. :)
JR
So would it connect with the L green line at East 63rd/Cottage Grove, or would it tunnel under Lake Michigan sraight to the Loop?
Mark
Straight to the Loop!
Express all the way.
Lake Michigan is a mere pond compared to the length of the new construction. Of course I would hate to read the headline,
"NYC-CHICAGO SUBWAY CONSTRUCTION ACCIDENT CAUSES LAKE MICHIGAN TO FLOOD NYC."
Allright. New lines:
(K) Shares 14th Street line with (L), but remains on Metropolitan Ave then Union Turnpike as far as we could go up to the Nassau line.
(X) 8th Ave/53rd St, cuts off immediately after entering Queens, follows the Lower Montauk line, cuts off that at Hillside and joins the (F) by Sutphin.
(Y) 6th Ave/53rd St local (I sort of envision a (V) on 2nd Ave/63rd St/Queens Blvd) then via Lower Montauk until Jamiaca Ave where it merges with the (J)(Z).
:-) Andrew
Unfortunately, with such a question, you're basically going to hear my favorite attitude: don't build something unless it benefits me directly. Unfortunately, what the vocal minority fails to realize is that the MTA does have judgment and that the benefits can be far-reaching and indirect, often extending beyond rail transit.
Priority Construction:
I believe the MTA has responded admirably to the areas of greatest need in the system. Planning studies and preliminary engineering are well underway for the Second Avenue Subway. A quick glance at the MTA's web site is a good indicator of what these priority projects are. Well, at least they are a priority in the MTA's mind...
The Second Avenue Subway. This is the most logical place to build a new line. The second avenue corridor has the greatest ridership to capacity ratio in the system. Just look at the population density and the location of the single IRT four-track line.
The Second Avenue Subway is not just a brand new line, but is really construction to connect existing tunnel segments to the system. Now these tunnel segments are small and located far from the bellmouths of the future 63rd Street interchange; the location where construction would begin.
The waking nightmare that is commuting on the Lexington Avenue line must be resolved, as we have already reached a crush-load condition. For those who are not convinced that the construction of this line (running through the most densely populated and underserved region of the City) is necessary and the most logical place to begin, the Second Avenue subway will have many other far reaching benefits.
Station Rehabilitation, Elevated Structure Repair, and ADA Compliance:
Although not as sexy a topic as new line construction in the minds of many railfanatics, this is certainly a costly need and high priority. I've had a chance to visit one of the worst stations in the system: 191st Street. It is in an unacceptable state of repair, and in need of major rehabilitation. Many residents are forced into (at the very least) inhumane conditions every day.
Although I am an Engineer, I am uncertain of the structural condition of the elevated structures. I do know that 242-VCP has 50 psf live load limits on the side platforms, but this condition may have been imposed be recent expansions, and not directly related to the health of the support structure.
While I am positive the condition varies, most are an eyesore to their communities, and do little to abate the noise of trains overhead. Business could be increased by a face-lift.
ADA compliance is crucial for making the subway more widely accessible to the elderly and disabled.
Construction that would be nice if...
...money for transit funding grew on trees. This category includes many of the expansions that have been tossed around on this board, but has not yet seriously been taken up (i.e., preliminary engineering and advanced planning studies) by the MTA. An extension of Staten Island Rapid Transit to Manhattan, an extension of the Flushing IRT to the Far West Side, but really only if a west side stadium were constructed. For the record, I disagree with the MTA's proposed routing of the Flushing line down Seventh Avenue, and would rather construction take it West under ~42nd Street, and then turn South down 9th or 10th Avenues to 34th Street. This would most likely involve demolition of the superfluous lower level on the 8th Avenue IND at 42nd Street, as the tail tracks on the Flushing line extend right to this wall.
And of course, there are the myriad of truly underserved areas, such as Co-op City, College Point, Throggs Neck, etc. The first two may actually fall in the category of priority construction.
Construction I don't want to see:
An extension of the Astoria or Flushing lines to LaGuardia Airport: Yes, you heard me correctly. This is something I would rather not see happen. Why? LaGuardia is Port Authority property. Let the PA pay for it, and in the process, free up money for the MTA to spend elsewhere. A lot of our lines are still crumbling. The subway does not belong on airport property, nor is the MTA equipment we all know and love properly designed for airport service. A separate system can be funded by airport taxes, sparing the rest of us non-airport commuters from a fare hike. Also, by combining systems, you force commuter transit to adopt airport loading patterns, or visa versa. I argue that there should be a free and easy (preferably cross-platform) ADA compliant transfer, or a simple standard fare hike (like an extra $1.50). I love the R-32, but I don't want to see it misapplied. The PA also has a track record of getting things built.
MATT-2AV
Why? LaGuardia is Port Authority property. Let the PA pay for it, and in the process, free up money for the MTA to spend elsewhere.
I think this is the attitude that the MTA took towards the JFK AirTrain, and look what we got: an entirely new system that will serve to get people from the airport to Jamaica Station. It'll have no connection to either LIRR or the subway and will probably be pretty cumbersome to use to get to Manhattan. The MTA and the PANYNJ need to work together on airport access and then maybe we'll get something modern and seamless.
Dan
"I think this is the attitude that the MTA took towards the JFK AirTrain, and look what we got: an entirely new system that will
serve to get people from the airport to Jamaica Station. It'll have no connection to either LIRR or the subway and will
probably be pretty cumbersome to use to get to Manhattan."
Very inaccurate, not well informed, but understandable. AirTrain links very conveniently to both. If anything, it's a success story on many levels (including funding).
Have you been to Atlanta's airport and seen what MARTA does? The PA does the same thing. Have you been to Newark Airport?
The MTA wasn't interested in running the A train into the Airport. That had nothing to do with the PA - the MTA had the ROW which it could have used, but wisely saw there was no reason to once the PA stepped forward.
There is currently no reasonable way to get the LIRR to the airport (the Rockaway line is dead and there are about a dozen, fatal, insurmountable obstacles to reviving it. Subtalk's archives are piled high with extensive explanations as to why this is so.) So the Port Authority built a line which connects to both. The PA ended up doing a nice job making sure MTA did its share of work: fixing up Jamaica Station, and committing $75 million to fix Howard Beach station.
The MTA wasn't interested in running the A train into the Airport. That had nothing to do with the PA - the MTA had the ROW which it could have used, but wisely saw there was no reason to once the PA stepped forward.
At the risk of repeating a point I've made before, a direct subway link to the airport could raise funding issues. AirTrain is being financed by a federal tax on airline tickets, and one of the strings attached thereto is a requirement that the line be useful only to airport users. While it could be argued that a subway extension terminating at the airport would comply with that restriction, the situation wouldn't be as clear-cut as AirTrain.
You are absolutely correct. I think an "A" extension could have qualified for PFC money, but "why risk it?" Especially when MTA didn't want to do it for operatinal reasons.
"It'll have no connection to either LIRR or the subway and will probably be pretty cumbersome to use to get to Manhattan."
This is a common misconception of the JFK AirTrain. Yes, I would have liked a one seat ride, but the archives of this board are filled with posts regarding the reasons for failure of such alternatives that would have appearead superior a prima facie.
The MTA had the JFK Train to Plane and could not get this to work due to scheduling difficulties. This train stopped only at Howard Beach. Now add in the intracacies of making terminal stops, and forfeit the extension to Jamaica, and you're not simplifying the matter. If they couldn't get it to work in the not-too-distant past, chances are, it won't be practical to implement now.
As for the Rockaway Branch of the LIRR, well, you might as well try and move the Island of Manhattan before you get that reactivated. Again, the reasons are in the archives.
I am all for seamlessness, but that does not necessarily mean a one-seat ride. People transfer from the IND/BMT to IRT all the time, but if I had my choice, I'd take a two-seat ride over a no-seat ride any day. And so did the MTA and PANYNJ.
MATT-2AV
The MTA had the JFK Train to Plane and could not get this to work due to scheduling difficulties. This train stopped only at Howard Beach. Now add in the intracacies of making terminal stops, and forfeit the extension to Jamaica, and you're not simplifying the matter. If they couldn't get it to work in the not-too-distant past, chances are, it won't be practical to implement now.
Oh, nonsense. The Train to the Plane failed because the Train didn't go to the Plane -- a transfer to a bus was necessary at the end. Nothing's new with AirTrain, except for an overpriced train replacing the bus.
Scheduling difficulties had nothing to do with it. Remember, the A ran express in Brooklyn rush hours only; at all other times, the express tracks were clear. Besides, as I pointed out a few months ago, if the A train itself (making all A stops) ran into the airport, it would take only ten minutes longer than the AirTrain - LIRR combo to reach Penn Station, and the A train would be faster for most of those not bound for Penn Station itself -- not to mention that it shouldn't be necessary to spend $5 plus LIRR fare plus subway fare for a trip within the city's borders when every other basic trip within those borders is available for a subway fare alone.
I agree with your rankings, with one exception. Extension of the 7 to the far west side should be a priority, just behind the Second Avenue line, regardless of whether there is any stadium construction. An extension would open up the whole area to the sort of development that so far has only tentatively poked its way west along 42nd Street. Contrast that to the Second Avenue line, which would serve areas that for the most part are already fully developed (note that I still rank the Second Avenue as the first priority given the intolerable situation on Lexington). By leading rather than following development, a 7 extension would in effect reclaim the subway's original role.
Two other advantages can be associated with a 7 extension. First of all, the relative lack of development along its likely route should help keep construction costs fairly reasonable, especially in comparison to the Second Avenue line. Next, a 7 extension could be tied into an expansion of the Javits Center. While the Javits Center siutation has been largely overlooked after September 11, the need for an expansion remains acute. It is too small to attract the sort of mega-conventions that generate huge amounts of ancilliary revenue for host cities.
I agree with your reasonings. I therefore change my statement from "it should be a priority only if a West Side stadium is constructed" to "it should be a priority... period". You are right, spurring new development should take a back seat to fixing current development, but I am very much in favor of an extension of the Flushing line. Its amazing how develoment just drops off precipitously west of 8th Avenue. Thanks,
MATT-2AV
I suspect it would cost a billion dollars just to get the 7 from its current TS terminal over to a new terminal station at 42St/9Av.
That's pretty close. The estimator of $1 billion per mile of tunnel construction is fairly accurate.
MATT-2AV
Is it true that MTA is bringing back the K Train, in its original 6th Ave/B'way Bklyn routing(not the AA replacement)?
Where did you get this information from?
Tell us where you heard this and (chances are)
we'll give you a big, resounding NO!
The K cannot be brought back under the current route alignments, because it would have no place to go for an uptown terminal in Manhattan, and the 600-foot long V train cannot run on the Eastern Division with its 480-foot platforms, so it has to terminate either at Second Ave. or (possibily sometime in the future) at Church Ave. in Brooklyn.
Absolutley not. 63rd. St has made this connection useless, or more useless than it was when it was in actual operation.
Not if they send the C through it, and send the E or V to Brooklyn in its place. (It would be a combination of both "K" services!)
Right now, that's the only way the Chrystie connection can be used. They can't send the V through there because it runs with eight-car R46 trains which can not deal with the tight clearances and the short platforms of the Eastern Division.
Community Consulting, some community organization based in Brooklyn, suggests rerouting the M train onto 6th Avenue and having it continue along the B line. But again, the Eastern Divsion clearances are an issue because the B runs with R68s. And for B trains to access the Chrystie connection, they would have to switch onto the local tracks before 34th Street. That would crowd the B, F and V trains all on two tracks. So that won't work either.
That leaves the C.
As the number of R143's increase in service, there will be more possibilities, but not a whole lot more since 75 foot cars still represent a large chunk of B Division capacity (there were 625 R68 and R68A cars total produced for the IND); I don't recall the number of R44's and 46's in service today (I know it's posted elsewhere on this site).
There's 752 R46's and 276 R44s give or take a few units.
wayne
Thank you. So that's a grand total of close to 1700 cars in the B division at 75 feet in length.
The B used to run with R40's, so why would it be hard to combine it with the M via Chrystie?
Because the B ran 10 car trains, and ran on the express tracks, making it impossible to access the connection to Essex St. without a traffic-snarling switch at 34 St or W4th St. The Chrystie St connector can only access the 6th Ave. local tracks from Essex, which means the only routes any Broadway Bklyn/6th Ave train could use north of Rockerfeller Ctr. would be to Queens.
Yeah I know, I know, you hate the whole idea of the K train. lol.
I don't hate it. I just see it as useless and unpractical.
63rd Street has accomplished nothing for anyone not on the Queeens Blvd line, and probably made matters worse for G passengers trying to get to Manhattan.
Well, if I lived on Roosevelt Island, I'd benefit with direct subway service. Of course, I'd also suffer from direct subway service, allowing the "riff-raff" element to access my island paradise. LOL
You mean low-life subway-loving slime buckets like you and me?
My wife will tell you that sometimes just my appearance could make somebody drown themselves in the East River (conveniently close if you live on the island).
:0)
Nah, not you or me. The 63rd. St. tunnel has made the trip for thugs who live in the Queensbridge projects ever so convenient, so that they can go on mugging sprees on Roosevelt Island and be home in just a few minutes!
It has also made it easier for cops to meet a train at the next stop and pick up the perps. The subway can be as confining as it is liberating. Jeffrey Rosen might have some observations about how the 109 or 110 Pct would hadle this...
"63rd Street has accomplished nothing for anyone not on the Queeens Blvd line, and probably made matters worse for G
passengers trying to get to Manhattan."
Not entirely true, though generally so. Queens Blvd. service itself is not directly relevant to Brooklyn riders; but having an extra tunnel off Sixth Av means that if police or medical activity or some switching/signal problem in any Queens-bound tunnel causes delays for Brooklyn riders on the same line (after all, a stalled F train at Lex/53rd could jam up service all the way to Stillwell), then the presence of two "relief valves" as opposed to only one prior to 63rd St's opening will help alleviate the problem. Also good for GOs, scheduled maintenance etc. etc.
As for G riders - yes, inconvenienced to some degree, but the same number of trains, albeit shorter, can now cover the shorter route more frequently.
The largest problem for the G riders in the new changes is the long transfer at Ely, as opposed to the easy one at Queens Plaza. I think the majority of them were getting off there anyway to go to Manhattan, as opposed to going to Queens.
You are correct. That is why the MTA installed a moving walkway, and Metrocard transfers to the 7; and is beginning to provide other amenities, like connecting stations together and improving them physically (setting them up for ADA compliance).
It isn't perfect, but it's a good start.
I think the short trains on the G line is the only real "problem" this line has. The long transfer @ Court Sq. is an inconvenience, but not a "problem".
I personally am happy to see better 6th Ave local service, which is perhaps an unintended consequence of 63rd St.
It's yielded better 6th Avenue local service. It's given passengers at Queensbridge, Roosevelt Island, 63/Lex, and 57/6 better service, including through service to/from Queens. It's given the TA options to reroute the V and R (and even E) for GO's and to bypass temporary problems.
What does 63rd Street have to do with providing thousands of Brooklyn riders a one seat ride to Midtown Manhattan through a connection that's ALLREADY IN EXISTENCE!! And how can you call that useless? Personally, I don't care, I don't live along Broadway Brooklyn, I'm not the one suffering! But I am amused by your "opinion".
You don't understand the context. Someone said the Essex-Delancey Street connections is all the more useless now becuase of 63rd Street.
I indicated one thing has nothing to do with the other.
I still don't see what the V train has to do with Broadway Brooklyn trains going to 6 Ave. How does the V train make the Essex-Delancey connection more useless?
So long as the V train is A.) Running 75-foot cars and/or B.) runnig 600-foot long trains, it can't run on the Eastern Division, and with the V and F on the Sixth Ave. local tracks and the B and D on the Sixth Ave. express, there's no room for another service via Broadway-Brooklyn. That leaves the C train as the only possible option to replace the K service, unless the MTA opts for a major overhaul of its IND routes in Manhattan.
The TA could conceivably decide that V trains with 8 60' cars are sufficient for Queens Blvd (i.e., relieve the E/F congestion sufficiently). As I said in my other post, I think there are additional issues about how useful the service would be, though.
I think the city should just go ahead and seal up this silly connection so that overstimulated railfans and bored community activists would have no reason to continue to justify the resumption of service thru this connector.
It's usage would disrupt too many other lines, for little benefit.
Back seat driving of the MTA is a long tradition, Chris....
:0)
Hey, I'm a dedicated rear car motorman myself, but I feel too many of us in here push for the resumption of certain routes because we never rode them and want to. I used the Chrystie St. connecor exactly once, when a fire @ the Bowery in 1987 rerouted the J I was on to 57th St.
The connection itself is not such a terrible thing. The MTA made the mistake of not providing adequate service through the former K/KK route, therefore inadvertently contributing to its demise. Today there isn't a pressing need to use the connection, but that doesn't mean that it would never be used again. Now just isn't the right time for it.
There are always uses for connections. Sometimes a connection should be built just because there's a need to move trains in a non-revenue fashion more efficiently from yard to terminal, or from one line to another.
That's right. Even it is only non-revenue moves, it will still have some puropose
Plus it allows service to continue in a reasonable state if they need to replace track or if some prat jumps in front of a train.
PLus they add flexibility. The 63rd St. connector is a prime example. So are the switches south of W. 4th St. They come in mighty handy when a reroute is necessary.
But 63rd Street does have something to do with the Chrystie connection. Because the 63rd Street tunnel connects into the heavily used Queens Blvd line, it dictates which train can use the Chrystie connection. The F currently uses the 63rd Street tunnel. There's no way you can run the F through Chrystie because it runs very frequently along Queens Blvd and uses R46s. You can't run the V through Chrystie either. The reasons for that are that the V also uses R46s and runs along Queens Blvd.
Shorter (480-foot) platforms and tighter curves on the Eastern Division lines (J, L, M) are another factor with Chrystie. So only 60-foot cars can use the connection. So that rules out the B and D trains, which currently end at 34th Street, as possiblities. Two other factors are that either the B or D would have to switch to the 6th Avenue local tracks in order to access Chrystie, overloading those tracks between 34th and Broadway-Laffayette. And then what do you do with the B or D when the 6th Avenue Manhattan Bridge tracks reopen?
Only one IND line in Manhattan runs with eight 60-foot cars per train. The C. Thanks to the 8 Av/6 Av junction south of West 4th Street, the C can access the Chrystie connection. Of course, something would have to take the C's place south of West 4th, either the E or the V. Because the C runs with eight-car trains of R32s or R38s, it is the only IND line that can be routed into the Chrystie St connection without causing major service problems elsewhere on its line. And it its cars are not affected by the restrictive Eastern Divsion curves or its shorter platforms.
I know this may sound crazy, but couldn't they swap the cars between the V and the C? This way, the V can continue from 2nd Avenue on to the Eastern Division, and the C can remain unchanged. Just a thought!
A good thought, I thought about that myself, but because the V runs through the very busy 53rd Street tunnel, it needs to run with full 600-foot trains. Also if the C ran with R46s and remained unchanged, it would need more R46s than what the V already has, because the present C line is longer than the present V line.
I was just thinking that if the V is running as "empty" as everyone is saying, they could get away with 8 cars of the R-32's or 38's. But, as you say, if they flipped, the number of cars wouldn't coincide, so I guess it wouldn't work. Oh, well! I tried!
Is the V running empty? Last I heard, people were catching on to it and it's working. If so, that would be all the more reason not to shorten V trains.
I hate to disappoint you, but finding seats on the "V" is getting harder these days. MTA evidently did something right.
I haven't witnessed it myself, but I spoke to someone from Forest Hills the other day who said there were seats available even as far in as Queens Plaza. However, I neglected to ask exactly what time of the day he was referring to. I stand corrected!
Rush hours, the V is quite full. Not as much as the E is, but people who need to access 53rd. St from the Queens Blvd. local stops are learning to take the V straight to their destination.
Heh, I always thought that that was the best possible plan.
BTW how well does MTA handle all the switching during rush hour?
Arti
To hear all the talk on here prior to the switch, you'd think it would be a slow mess. But I've never had problems on either the E, V or F train thru the junction. Very smooth, in both directions, even during rush hours.
I've always thought the service plan MTA instituted along Queens Blvd. was very good (and I wrote them to say so).
This is a separate issue from whether or not it should have been built. Now that it's here, they really did design a decent service plan for it.
The V does inrcrease service to Manhattan, now both locals got to Manahattan as opposed to 1, and riders at all those stations don't have to wait for the R as a G used to be mixed in. Now they can take the first one that comes.
What I've seen of the "V" train and its lackluster loads, it could very well get away with 8-cars of 60-footers, Slants, R32s or the like.
wayne
I rode the V Friday morning. Standing room only between Queens Plaza & 5th Ave.
The V is certainly not running "empty", so 480' trains are out of the question.
And a 600' C train would run virtually empty.
It's not just the cars it's the length of the trains. So long as the V trains are 600 feet long they can't completely platform on the Eastern Division, even if all the Vsare made up of 60-foot cars.
The other option -- which has been rehashed over and over again on the board -- would be to send the C train to the Eastern Division and run the V as Fulton local, with the two lines swapping routes south of West Fourth. Since the C runs eight car trains of 60-footers it can platform on the Eastern Division, but then you have to decide where the line's terminal is going to be.
That would be Eastern Parkway, for the interim; and once the Atlantic construction/destruction is complete, the south terminal should be Canarsie. Perhaps this would be good for rush hours, with mid-day terminus at Eastern Parkway.
wayne
That's the route I would pick, because it would provide something not available right now: A one-seat ride from Canarsie to midtown Manhattan. To do it, the Z train and skip-stop service east of B'way Junction would have to be abandoned, but the MTA could compensate for that by running peak direction express service on the J between B'way Junction and Marcy while letting the C handle the local service along Broadway.
That's the route I would pick, because it would provide something not available right now: A one-seat ride from Canarsie to midtown Manhattan.
I've said this before and I'll say it again: Running any trains from Canarsie via the Broadway elevated robs the majority of L ridership of trains, those who use the line WEST of Broadway Junction. If Atlantic Ave. wasn't being diminished, then terminating a potential route here would be possible. Canarsie cannot handle any more trains from Rockaway Pkwy as it is now, and ridership demands west of Broadway Junction on the L line demand every train that you can squeeze onto the line.
The Eastern division doesn't need a 1 seat ride into midtown. All 4 routes have plenty of convenient transfer points to north/south lines in Manhattan already.
I agree with you, but why can't Canarsie handle more trains? It's only doing about 12 tph now?
It's running 15 TPH, and the terminal @ Rockaway Parkway has a similar problem that limits the E from Parsons/Archer: inbound trains have to wait inside E105th for the next train to leave before proceeding. The switches here are somewhat odd.
Thanks.
By the way, the MTA schedule says "every 5-7 minutes" in rush hour, which I assume is a code phrase for 12 tph, which also corresponds to my personal experience (I live right near the 3rd Ave station).
The track map make it look like running the subtalk-fantasy-proposed K to Livonia on the L would be possible, however.
Actually, I can't find a track map showing the area around the Canarsie yard on this site. But the last time I was down there, the track configuration had the switches between the northbound & southbound very close to 105th St. This would limit capacity @ Rockaway Parkway to what it is today.
Chris: Up until at least the early 70's the double crossover at Canarsie was much closer to Rockaway Parkway. I believe that there was a slip switch just south of East 105 Street for access to the yard. Ever since they moved the double crossover north there have been delays.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Short runs from Eighth Ave. to Myrtle Ave. on the L, which ran in ye olden days, could be reinstituted to make up for the loss of TPH at Rockaway Parkway if that terminal was shared by the C and L trains. That would still leave a few stations in-between B'way Junction and Myrtle with less service. Whether or not that would make a major different would depend on how much those stations are used right now.
That's where I think most service is located, although is it possible to terminate and start trains at Broadway Junction instead (even though I know Myrtle is set up to terminate already with the extra track past the station.)
Hey, isn't this meant to be a subtalk fantasy? If so, the Fulton St El can be rebuilt between Atlantic and Grant, so that the P train can run from 8 Av Manhattan via the 14th St Line to Lefferts to make up for the reduction in L service west (north?) of Atlantic.
However, one could take the view that, with what's there at the moment, the MTA are doing their best.
Are most of the L's riders east of Broadway Junction? What would be the point of running a Canarsie Broadway Brooklyn train again, if they aren't?
It all the L train riders live east (south) of Broadway Junction and work within walking distance of 14th St. in Manhattan, then a Canarsie-Broadway Brooklyn-Chrystie St. route wouldn't even be worth discussing. But most of those who get on the L between B'way Junction and Rockaway Parkway have to transfer once more at either Union Square, Sixth Ave. or Eighth Ave. to get to their jobs, so the idea of a route from Canarsie to Midtown Manhattan has some logic to it (but not until the CTBC tests are done).
3 out of every 4 Canarsie riders (not exact numbers, but an educated guess) x-fer to the A/C at Broadway Junction. They'd still do this even if the K ran to Canarsie because the A express is faster than any propopsed K route.
Now when I've said a proposed C routing through Essex to Metropolitan in place of the M wouldn't work because people north of Wyckoff would transfer from the C to the L to avoid the loop down to Delancey even if it meant giving up a one-seat ride, I was told that people don't like to use that long transfer and would prefer a one seat ride. If your argument is true it would be the opposite -- people will take the long transfer up or down from the East New York platform on the L to the A train over a possible one-seat ride via a C train that goes B'way-Brooklyn to Rockaway Parkway and the Chrystie St. connection.
Obviously, either someone is wrong in their assumptions or the people of Canarsie are hardier souls who don't mind a good trip up and down the stairs or escalator five times a week, while people coming from Ridgewood are couch (or in the case of the Eastern Division trains, bench) potatoes. Peronally, I think sometime in the future a 168th-Wash Heights/Canarsie routing would at least be worth an MTA survey, to see if the L train riders south of B'way Junction would like a one-seat ride to the midtown area or if they like the set-up the way it is now.
Peronally, I think sometime in the future a 168th-Wash Heights/Canarsie routing would at least be worth an MTA survey, to see if the L train riders south of B'way Junction would like a one-seat ride to the midtown area or if they like the set-up the way it is now.
How do you provide this one seat ride to midtown and keep current service on the L west of Atlantic Ave, where ridership demands are already not met by current service? You cannot cut L service to accomodate this "C" route to Rockaway Parkway.
As I said in an earlier post, short train runs between Eighth Ave-14th St. and Myrtle Ave. could take up some of the service west of B'way Junction, except for the three stops in-between.
As far as the other problem goes, you seem to be automatically assuming that noone would take the C train and everyone who is taking the L now would continue to take the L even if there was a second line to Canarsie. Neither of us has been blessed with the ability to read minds -- maybe they would, maybe the split would be 50-50, maybe the number of riders switching from the L to the C would be somwhere in between. That's why I said the MTA could do a survey of the riders boarding between Rockaway Parkway and Atlanta Ave, to see if they would use a difffernt route to midtown Manhattan or if they prefer the way things are now.
As I said in an earlier post, short train runs between Eighth Ave-14th St. and Myrtle Ave. could take up some of the service west of B'way Junction, except for the three stops in-between.
Why go through the trouble, just to eliminate a walking transfer? People move a lot easier than trains do. Why screw riders at Wilson Ave. and Halsey St?
All I know is that I used to live in Ridgewood and used the M and L trains quite often. Most of the time I would transfer to the 6 train uptown. I usually took the M to Canal to the 6 rather than the L to Union Square. I just hated getting off the M at Wyckoff to get to the L, and the reverse coming home was worse. Even though it took more time to go to Canal and back up, it was worth it to avoid the transfer at Wyckoff-Myrtle. The Myrtle Wyckoff transfer is a miserable one.
East New York A train platform to the L train platform at B'way Junction is no walk in the park either, which bolsters my point that people, especially those already with seats, would stay on a C train headed for West Fourth and uptown rather than do the upstairs/downstairs shuffle to the A (which would already be too crowded to get a seat on anyway).
East New York A train platform to the L train platform at B'way Junction is no walk in the park either
Ain't that the truth!
What do you think of this idea that I started on another thread here?
It touches on your C train idea, but adds another reason for it.
JR
I don't see any problem with it, though the M letter designation becomes superfilous once its taken off the Willie B -- any letter designation would do. d if the MTA decided to end the B'way-Brooklyn line at Chambers and keep the Second Ave. lines running south to Broad Street or Brooklyn, the seperation of the two lines between Chambers and Bowery would still give them the option of keeping the M and C trains basically the way they are while adding a Second Ave. route, since the Centre St. tracks are vastly underused right now.
Going by the other thread started today, it sounds like the MTA wants to go with the original 1970 Second Ave. routing though lower Manhattan. While that would serve more areas from Chatham Square to Whitehall that currently aren't near subway lines, the total cost of building completely new trackage between Delancey and Whitehall could come into play in the future, so a Second Avenue line routing through the Nassau Loop may still be alive once the budget numbers are run through the people who have to approve the funing for the project in Albany and down in Washington.
East New York A train platform to the L train platform at B'way Junction is no walk in the park either, which bolsters my point that people, especially those already with seats, would stay on a C train headed for West Fourth and uptown rather than do the upstairs/downstairs shuffle to the A (which would already be too crowded to get a seat on anyway).
People will always seek the faster route, even if it means a transfer. That's a rule every routing plan should be measured against. This C train would crawl into Eastern Parkway, crawl thru the Myrtle Ave interlocking, crawl over the bridge, crawl through the Chrystie St. connection because of the inevitable logjam with incoming F trains, and crawl into W4th as it merges with the E. No time will be saved, delays are inevitable and no advantage is gained by doing this. Not to mention the fact that this C routing has no transfer to either the Broadway or Lexington Ave line. Eliminate these transfers, and people will use the L anyway.
Maybe. Maybe not once CTBC is exetended to other parts of the Eastern Division besides the Canarsie line. That's at least 15 years off, so we're not talking about something the MTA would be holding public hearing on any time soon, even if they did think it was a good idea.
As I said somewhere back in this thread, once the new system is in place, the Canarsie-Chrystie routing is an option. I'm not married to the idea, but it's something that the MTA could run a survey on for riders south of B'way Junction (you're not against the idea of surveys, I hope).
People will always seek the faster route, even if it means a transfer.
Some will, some won't.
Last Tuesday, I rode from Grand Army Plaza to 86 on the 1/2 during the afternoon rush. I could have sought out a faster route, but I wasn't in any rush and I had a seat. The train was empty through Brooklyn and filled up at Wall. I could have crossed up and over at 14 to the express, but the express ended up meeting the 2 I was on at 72 anyway, and I would have been stuck standing the rest of the way (and if the 3 had left 30 seconds later, I would have fallen one interval behind). It was a most relaxing ride; I rarely have the opportunity to sit on such a crowded train.
(Not that I'm pushing J Lee's plan. I'd rather combine the C and the J. Yes, I know how you feel about it.)
Some will, some won't
Everyone not a railfan will. Any perceived shortening of a commute will be eagerly exploited.
Wrong. Recall that my trip was from Grand Army Plaza to 86. Where might I have transferred? I could have gotten off at 14 and crossed up an over to the downtown track, where no train was waiting, knowing that I'd have to transfer back at 72. Since there was no train directly in front of mine (I waited a few minutes at GAP), there was simply no chance, barring very unusual circumstances, that the express could catch up with the next local -- the 14-72 express run only saves about four minutes, and I had no way of knowing how long I'd be waiting at 14 for the express. I could have gotten off at Atlantic and transferred to the Q or W and back at 42, but who would go through all those connecting passageways in the interests of possibly saving a few minutes (but probably not)? Remember, also, that I had a seat, a hot commodity once in Manhattan. Do you think I'd give that up for no reason at all?
Most regular 1/2/3 riders have figured out that the local isn't much slower than the express. A moving local is better than an empty express track.
That's not what I was thinking. Run the C or V to Metroplitan Avenue, kill the M, extend the J to Bay Parkway.
The V cannot run to Metropolitan with 480' train limitations.. The C would be even less desirable than the M to Myrtle Ave riders. And the J doesn't run frequently enough to replace the M south of Broad St. during rush hours.
That's 3 strikes. You're out.
I think the trouble with the concept of the K is that it can only provide a small portion of the Eastern Division with direct service to midtown.
Assuming you deal with the car lengths issue (say, by switching the C and V), you could conceivably run the K:
- to Canarsie
- to Metropolitan Ave
- to Parsons/Archer as a skip-stop
- to Parsons/Archer as an express on the middle track
- to Parsons/Archer as a local making every stop
Whichever you do, most of the customers on the Eastern Division will still have to change trains somewhere to get to midtown, except for the last case, which will just be excrutiatingly slow.
Wouldn't they actually benefit more in total from the V going to Church Ave so that when they change at Delancey/Essex a train will come within very few minutes?
Further, if you actually run it up 8th Ave as a C rather than 6th Ave as a V, you benefit even fewer people because 6th is a destination for more people than 8th is.
Is this some subtalk fantasy of running the C through the Chrystie route to Broadway Brooklyn, or did the MTA actually study this option. It sounds interesting, I was just wondering iof it was based on anything.
Fantasy as far as I know. Sounds like it would make a big mess south of W 4th relative to the value it provides.
Wouldn't they actually benefit more in total from the V going to Church Ave so that when they change at Delancey/Essex a train will come within very few minutes?
Yes! 12 extra trains at Delancey would greatly aid transferring J/M riders. Another big help, and cheaper than running a new line, is to widen, or add another stairwell from the southbound platform at Essex St to the lower F platform. That one stairwell can become crowded and it sometimes delays those who transfer from the F to the J/M in the morning.
Further, if you actually run it up 8th Ave as a C rather than 6th Ave as a V, you benefit even fewer people because 6th is a destination for more people than 8th is
That's another thing. The most popular stop on the A/C line is Broadway Nassau, as it provides a transfer to the Lexington IRT. If the C ran via Chrystie/Houston/8th Ave, i'd think that routing would be even less desirable than the current J/M service to Broad. You cannot transfer to the Broadway BMT or Lexington IRT anywhere along the proposed rerouted C line.
Wouldn't they actually benefit more in total from the V going to Church Ave so that when they change at Delancey/Essex a train will come within very few minutes?
Yes! 12 extra trains at Delancey would greatly aid transferring J/M riders. Another big help, and cheaper than running a new line, is to widen, or add another stairwell from the southbound platform at Essex St to the lower F platform. That one stairwell can become crowded and it sometimes delays those who transfer from the F to the J/M in the morning.
Further, if you actually run it up 8th Ave as a C rather than 6th Ave as a V, you benefit even fewer people because 6th is a destination for more people than 8th is
That's another thing. The most popular stop on the A/C line is Broadway Nassau, as it provides a transfer to the Lexington IRT. If the C ran via Chrystie/Houston/8th Ave, i'd think that routing would be even less desirable than the current J/M service to Broad. You cannot transfer to the Broadway BMT or Lexington IRT anywhere along the proposed rerouted C line.
So long as they don't built the proposed underpass to the uptown Bleecker Street station on the 6 at B'way-Layfayette...
If I'm an M rider, I'd rather transfer to the Lex at Chambers St.
I've been hearing a lot about bringing back the K, about the new V, the W. and good God what else. Next thing you know we will be talking about a Z. What the hell is going on back there? Why so many lines anyway? Then I hear there are jam-ups on Queens Blvd, while in other places trains are running very infrequently or hardly at all, or as you guys put, rarely and never. Something is amiss and I wonder why such a fouled up situation exists. I can only go by what you guys in New York tell me. Are there too many trains or too few? And why is the system in such a mess right now. Are we still reeling from what happened on September 11? That shouldn't affect the whole system when only two or three lines were directly impacted by it.
Fred, I hope that you're kidding. There has been a "Z" train for several years now, providing rush hour skip stop service on the Broadway Brooklyn BMT, along with the "J" train. In the days following 9/11, it was discontinued, when the "J" was extended to 95th Street, but I believe it is back again.
Well Fishbowl I wasn't kidding and that makes me somewhat ignorant of the facts. I;m getting my letters so mixed up now that I have little clue just what trains are running now and which have been discontinued. Thanks for clueing me in. I have never ridden on the L, J or Z trains, so I am not that well informed on those lines. I probably am less informed that I should have been not to know that there is a Z train.
Well Fred, the N is still the Slow Beach and it still runs almost Never. And what does run is getting passed on Broadway and at Dekalb Av. by Q trains.
Well leave it to you Q to add a little sunshine to my day with your enthusiastic jibes at my Sea Beach. What happened to your D? The TA did something smart and got that Bronx-laden fraud off a BMT track. Doesn't that bring a nice feeling to your innards? Read and weep pal.
The D will be back in 2004. I wouldn't be too sure that you're N will be back on the bridge, though. Sorry, Fred. We'll just have to wait and see. Until then, we should both only be well.
I realize the TA hasn't announced their 2004 plans, but what possible reason could they have for not running the N over the bridge?
- 4th Ave riders would still have 2 services to get to the Wall St area: the R and M.
- Anyone at DeKalb who wants to go to midtown wants to go over the bridge.
- There is still a service between midtown and downtown, namely the R.
When there are conflicting demands for service, the TA will often pick a choice that many people disagree with. But who could disagree with sending the N over the bridge? It even takes fewer cars than sending it through the tunnel.
Two possible reasons that I can think of right now: people have gotten used to the N going through the tunnel and less switching.
Not if the N skips DeKalb. That would not be more switching than what the N does now. On weekdays, the N must switch from the 4th Avenue express to the 4th Avenue local tracks north of Pacific to get to the Montague tunnel. If it remains on the express tracks north of Pacific and skips DeKalb, the N does not have to do any switching until approaching the Manhattan Bridge.
As for N line riders being used to the N going though the tunnel, they had to get used to that in 1986. They will get used to and (I think) appreciate it going express over the bridge.
True for the Dekalb area. But don't forget that further uptown, there is that additional switch, from the express tracks to the local tracks around the Times Square area. There is also the minor problem of the two additional merges, one around Dekalb (with the Q to the bridge tracks) and the other around Times Square, to the local tracks with the RR. But perhaps a stronger reason that could be presented for the N staying the way it is now is that, it seems to me at least, Astoria line riders seem to prefer local service on Broadway. And that's what they've had, mostly, from the 1960s or even earlier, with the QT, RR, and N going there.
Hey Q, speak for yourself. If you want local service on Broadway, fine. Use one your damn Brighton trains for that, and take the R as well. Just let my train get back on the bridge where it has always belonged, and while at it bring it back to becoming the Broadway Express again. Capice?
Fred, ridership. Not enough Slow Beach riders. Capisce?
If it was on the bridge it would get more riders because it is a quicker trip to Brooklyn than the Montague tunnel. Comprende?
It's comprendez, Fred, comprendez. Anyway, Fred, #1 Brighton Exp Bob has been AWOL for some time. Somebody's got to take up the slack.
I also remember when the N ran via bridge and would love to see it return there.
Q: As usual you are doing a hell of a job. Bob is getting overtime in his new job up the giggy and he says he needs the extra dough, so who am I to doubt him. When he catches his breath he will return, so in the meantime fire away.
In other words, the Bob and Fred Show is on temporary hiatus.:-)
That awkward switch could be avoided by sending the N to Lex / 63rd St and the Q to Astoria.
Agreed - a crossover switch should be built on the tail tracks that are past the 63rd St station so that the N trains can be relayed, not on the tracks used by the F line, which already has one. then both sides of 63rd St - Lex can be used, and Queens passengers can get to the Broadway lines earlier and quicker. How about it?
There's one on the track map just North of 57th St. Using that would have the disadvantage of the trains alternating levels at 63/Lex and would probably limit tph.
What they would need to do is build a 600ft section of 2nd Av, where the two tracks would ramp to the same level again, and there would be another switch.
or a section of 2nd Av as far as 125 St. Yay! I got an idea:
B: 168 St / Washington Heights - 6 Av Express - Brighton Express - Brighton Beach
N: 125 St / Lex - 2nd Av - Broadway Express - Sea Beach Local - Coney Island
Q: Astoria Local - 60th St Tunnel - Broadway Local - Brighton Local - Coney Island
It should have been done some time ago. In fact, it would be useful already what with the 2 Q trains terminating at 57th. There must be a reason why it's not already been provided for.
"True for the Dekalb area. But don't forget that further uptown, there is that additional switch, from the express tracks to the local tracks around the Times Square area. There is also the minor problem of the two additional merges, one around Dekalb (with the Q to the bridge tracks) and the other around Times Square, to the local tracks with the RR."
The Times Square merge is being done even now by the W, awkwardly I admit, when you have (Q) and on the express track and N and R on the local. It tends to back up express trains behind it. It should be fine with the gone.
As for the N at DeKalb, the suggestion has already been made that it could skip DeKalb, thus avoiding one merge.
"But perhaps a stronger reason that could be presented for the N staying the way it is now is that, it seems to me at least, Astoria line riders seem to prefer local service on Broadway."
Why do you say that? I know one Astoria rider at Broadway (Astoria) who is ecstatic at now being able to catch a W (now local in Queens and express in Manhattan). Just because they've never had an express doesn't mean they don't want one.
Having lived at Ditmars Blvd. station- Astoria Line in the past, I can say, that for a job in the 42nd street vicinity esp. Fifth Ave. and East, I would always switch to the waiting 7 at Queensboro Plaza and have a shorter walk.
I had the privilege of working in the World Trade Center at one time and I would have preferred an express to Canal Street and then switch to a local to Cortlandt.
It seems that the main beneficiaries of a Broadway local are people who get off at 49th Street. That is a small minority. Oh yeah, 23rd and 28th are local stops but not as busy as the midtown stations. As for 8th and Prince Streets, anyone can change at 14th.
The N should use the bridge too with the R in the tunnel.
It would make no sense to take an express to Canal, then a local to Cortlandt becasue of the long distance and stairways between the the two platforms. Once again, we are getting into the debate about the time saved between a local and an express. There is only a 4 to 5 minute saving in running time between a local and express on the B'way BMY subway. If you let an local pass you by, you will probably not catch up to it if you wait for an express.
If the proposed Whitehall-Astoria Broadway Local is created after the Manny B is fully repaired, then the N would probably run via Broadway Express, because there would be limited track space between Prince and Whitehall for three limes.
Having both Fourth Ave. express trains skip DeKalb would cause some problems at first, but with a better transfer at Atlantic Ave./Pacific Street (assuming they get that done by 2004) and the fact that The D and B and the Q and N would mirror each other in Manhattan from just off the bridge to Central Park means that almost all the current transfers available at DeKalb would still be in place if both the B and N trains skipped the station.
Right!!! Let the Sea Beach skip DeKalb and get it the hell on the bridge. There is no reason for it to be kept off of it any longer.
You are right. Look for my topic on Sea Beach Express track restoration coming very soon.
You can take that one to the bank Peppertree. I will be waiting.
Now all we need is a return of the Coney Island Express.
And if they are cheap at that time and decide against the Whitehall local, there was another plan-- to switch Astoria's peak direction N's to the tunnel at Prince. This would keep everyone happy, because most of the Brooklyn riders are clamoring for the Bridge/express route back. It's primarily Astoria that wants local service, because they always had direct local service. (RR, QT, etc).
This is also what they should do when the first phase of 2nd Av. opens, instead of reconfiguring Canal St. (especially now that the full-length line will follow right behind).
Eric: It was a curse when the N was sent to Astoria. It was a Brooklyn=Manhattan train that should have stayed at 57th Street. Send the damn R or W there and get my train the hell out of Astoria.
But the Queens part of the ride to Astoria is in the bright sunshine, not the rat infested tunnels. What is wrong with the N taking a trip in the sunshine to Astoria? Nothing.
The N is good enough for three boroughs anyway.
You bring up a good point, but remember this. The R is a local and when the N was sent to Astoria the seeds were sown for the Sea Beach to become a local, too. I like the idea of being out in the sunshine, so long as the N becomes an express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. But I believe that when the N was sent to Astoria all the TA looked at was that here was a more elongated local train. I hope I am wrong.
Hey Fred, what if the 4 had gone to Astoria when you were still living in the city? You would have had a nice, one seat ride all the way to Brooklyn.
During certain times of the day I do remember seeing from my window a #4 train coming out of the 11th Street tunnel and heading for Queens Plaza. I never could figure out if they had just forgotten to take the numbers off the train and were used in rus hour traffic, or whether the Sea Beach actually was routed past 42nd Street during rush hours. I still don't know and apparently nobody else does. But one thing is very certain, my eyes did not deceive me. I saw a number of times a #4 Triplex coming out of the tunnel and it did not have a #1 Brighton on it.
Fred: Why would this seem so unlikely. A #4 could have been extended from Times Square to cover a service gap. BTW was this before or after they stopped running the el cars to Astoria.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey R 142, I never got used to having my Sea Beach running through that rat infested Montague Tunnel when I visited New York in '91 and 99. I will not have to get used to it running over the Manhattan Bridge at all. To me that is natural. However, if you don't mind, I will keep breathing until that day comes. If it ever does.
Didn't the N briefly run over the Manhattan in 1990 and early 1991? When in 1991 did you visit? If I'm not mistaken, it ran express under Broadway (south of Times Square), over the bridge, and 4th Avenue all times except late nights. The late-night R was also made into a 4th Avenue shuttle at that time.
The N train was back for a while over the bridge, but problems on the bridge caused it to close after a very brief time returning, and then of course the whole rebuild began, but the N was supposed to last a little longer than it did when it was put back there in the early 90's.
I was there in August of 1991 and if I remember correctly it did not run over the bridge. Maybe someone out there can clarify this, but where the Sea Beach is concerned I am usually right.
The N ran over the bridge again for a brief period beginning in September 1990!!!!!! Tony
The N was still running over the bridge in October of 1990. It was pulled shortly thereafter, IIRC.
The N resumed service over the Manhattan Bridge (and on the Broadway express tracks, switching back to the local between 34 and 42, as the W does today) September 30, 1990 (and I have the map to prove it). This was only supposed to be temporary, during a brief cessation in DOT work. It ended up being more temporary than expected -- a cracked beam was found on the bridge two or three months after the service began and the N was immediately sent back to the tunnel.
I even had the brochures announcing the change, but I stupidly threw them out.
What I remember best about this service was the long waits for a local at 8th Street. Whatever ultimately happens to the N, there need to be two Broadway local services.
"Whatever ultimately happens to the N, there need to be two Broadway local services."
And having an Astoria to Whitehall St local plus an N Sea Beach over the bridge can be achieved with hardly more rolling stock than is used now for the N plus that portion of the W that is above 34th St.
Indeed. The question comes down to this: (a) Would Sea Beach, West End, and Brighton riders prefer local or express service on Broadway? (b) Is there sufficient express capacity for those who would prefer express service? If not, the least busy line should be bumped to the local. (c) Is there sufficient local capacity for those who would prefer local service? If not, the least busy line should be bumped to the express.
The N can run express. What's not clear to me is whether N passengers in Brooklyn want an express. I haven't taken a poll. The only preference I've heard comes from a resident of California who only rides the line when he visits Brooklyn.
Express stations at 34th, 42nd and 57th streets will take a lot of people. The only local station that may have a heavy load is 49th street.
I say, put the N back on the express where it has always belonged.
Midtown is a more major destination than downtown. On any Brooklyn line that feeds into Dekalb, there are always more people who would rather take the bridge than the tunnel.
Then once they are in Manhattan, all the transfer stops are express stops. So you serve most of the demand with the express. As long as you have good local service (big if, of course), the people who want Broadway local stop motly don't suffer by taking an express as far as they can and switching to a local.
I admit, there are exceptions. If you want to go to Prince St, you want a bridge train that then goes local.
But as long as Sea Beach riders are relatively normal New Yorkers, the express over the bridge will provide the best service to the greatest number.
I have a map from September of 1990 which outlines the N using the bridge during daytime hours. Even rode on an express N to Union Square, where I changed for an R to Whitehall St.
I was mad the Q didin't go back over as well (and they start up the V early, to cover 63rd St.). Since the N skipped DeKalb during the day, it was annoying getting from the Brighton to the Broadway express(either transfer Atlantic-Pacific, or take the R local).
Their logic-they didn't want too many people to become used to this "temporary service")
The Q shouldn't have gone back. You saw the confusion that resulted from the major service changes on 7/22. Why put the public through that only to reverse everything a year later?
I have the map and the brochures. I called this the "tease of 1990". It was not a good idea. The R train alone was inadequate for Broadway local service by 1990. I do remember that the N's going over the bridge were always restricted in speed from day #1, as opposed to the 6th Ave trains on the other side.
There is one very obvious possible reason: Perhaps Sea Beach riders disproportionately are bound for downtown Brooklyn, lower Manhattan, and Broadway local stops. I don't know if this is the case or not, as I haven't taken a poll. Have you?
I also think that ridership at the Broadway local stations, including those south of Canal, demands more service than the R. Whether the additional service is provided by the N or by something else isn't critical, but there needs to be something.
>>>The D will be back in 2004.<<<
As far as I'm concerned, it never left...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually the Z has been running with the J since 1988, so the Z letter is already taken.
Well GP, thanks for also setting me straight. It is hard to keep up 3,000 miles away.
lol............
I think there's a lot of perfectionism here. The subways aren't running perfectly. Some are too crowded and some are aren't full enough to be justified. So there's lots to complain about and suggest improvements for.
But, say, relative to 1978, they're in great shape (yes, I know that's not saying much).
For the latest subway map as well as mostly up-to-date schedule, go to the MTA web site (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/). And of course this site gives you track maps.
And the MTA were to bring it back, where would it go? Sending it to Queens Blvd is not a good idea as indicated by earlier threads.
Are they building the 2nd Avenue line as well?
Tony,where did you hear about this?
Look at what someone is selling on eBay.
Of course they are going to bring back the (K) train.
I mean, what else can they do, the poor alphabet only has 26 letters in it!
But sure as little fishes it *ain't* going to run *there* : )
Elias
Of the 5 Subway-Surfacew lines, (10, 11, 13, 34, 36), which routes were not the original routes operating in the subway?
I'll post the answer tommorrow.
13 and 36.
OK, that was easy and Paul Matus already answered it.
Actually, the #13 & #36 were introduced to the subway surface in 1956 - in the PTC era - long before SEPTA came on the scene.
For extra points, what surface streets did the #13 & 36 use to get downtown and back, before they were routed into the subway surface at 40 & Market?
Next question:
During the PTC era, only PCC air-electric cars were regularly scheduled to run in the subway surface tunnel. What was the reason for excluding all-electric cars from the tunnel?
Jim K.
ex-Philadelphian
What is an air-electric car? Does it use air prpulsion? Or does it lack a dynamic brake and therefore used air-brakes only? Or something else?
You've never heard of a PCC car built prior to the introduction of all-electric operation being refered to as an air-electric car? I didn't realize they were gone from the scene so long.
When I was a teenager, PTC had 489 PCCs, with 239 air cars (2031-2090, 2501-2680) and 250 all electrics (2700-2800, 2091-2200, & 2251-2290).
The air-electric car used air brakes to slow the PCC's down to about 5 MPH, when the dynamic brake took over. I'm not entirely positive exactly what type of brake system did the task to what speed; however, the air-electrics had air-compressors and used an air brake and brake shoes for stopping.
Maybe someone could elaborate on the mechanics or the air-electric braking system.
Jim Kramer
ex-Philadelphian
You mean the air-brake worked first, then the dynamic brake?
This is most unusual. It's usually (on the subway and railroad) the dynamic brake that slows the train down, then the air brake comes on to stop it (reduces wear on the brake shoes).
Train Dude?
This is my understanding (JeffH I'm sure could give more details). PCCs have three brake systems:
dynamic--slows car to 5mph;
friction brake (wheel tread on air-electric car; drum on all-electrics)--slows car from 5mph to nearly stopped;
track brake--stops car completely.
This is the default braking cycle in the control packages from GE and Westinghouse. Some properties tinkered with the adjustments to make the track brakes engage earlier in the cycle. I seem to recall someone saying SEPTA did this, and as a result had higher maintenance on the track brakes.
My understanding was that the track brake on the PCC, whatever its original intent, was to be used for emergency braking aid and to hold the car in place when stopped. I remember how the track brakes on the Brooklyn PCCs used to rock back and forth when they released when the car started up.
Reason they were not used (or no longer used) in service braking was that the action was too hard on the brakes and the rails. Just as I've heard it.
Not quite.
PCC's use dynamic braking to slow to between 8 mph and 4 mph (depending on if the car is has extended dynamic braking or not.)
At the fade-out point of the dynamic braking, the friction brakes bring the car to a stop. Air-electic cars have a lockout valve on the air valve that holds the air until the final braking. All-electric cars use spring applied, electricly released shaft brakes to do the final braking.
Track brakes are used only in emergency braking. It is actuated by pressing the brake pedal down 4 1/2", or in full emergency braking. Most operating companies trained operators NOT to use track brakes excessively, as track brakes tend to "smear" the rail head.
Now, for the reason that all-electrics were banned from the subway, it was a ban on brake actuators, not every all-electric. Cars with GE brake actuators used a long rod to manually release the shaft brakes in an emergency. The rod was long enough to contact the third rail on the MFSE tracks (on the left side of the streetcar tracks), so GE actuator car were banned. Cars with Westinghouse actuators (A WH has handles that are pulled outward to release the shaft brakes.) were not banned, but PTC/SEPTA did not assign them until the Woodland fire in 1977. At first, only WH actuator cars were used, SEPTA changed all the car to WH actuators, so any all-electric could be assigned.
What long rod? The brake release tool is the reverser handle.
We say that on all-electric cars, the brakes are spring-applied,
electrically-released, but that's a partial truth on GE actuators.
They have a complicated dual-coil, split-armature arrangement.
The brakes are spring-applied in emergency, electrically reset
and held. When released, the brake actuators consume only minimal
current. This is in contrast to the Clark actuators which are
always drawing several amps when released. With the GE actuators,
a second coil provides the service braking force and is only energized
when friction braking is called for.
My source for the "long rod" was a comment from a PTC/SEPTA Instructor in 1977. All-electrics were banned from the subway, not only for in-service, but also for fantrips. Since the all-electrics all had extended dynamic braking, there were no braking issues in their operation, but something had to be there for the ban. We ran fantrips in the late 60's and early 70's with all electrics and the routing to West Philadelphia had to be "over the top" from Girard Avenue and the trips could not enter the subway. By 1976 SEPTA was allowing fantrips with all-electrics in the subway, but the cars had to have WH actuators.
PTC was famed for funny reasons for various operating practices, like inward opening front doors on PCC's, removing backup controllers on secondhand cars that had them and other stuff. (They missed one on one of the Kansas City cars. We had it on one of the fantrips, and in backing down 9th street from the 62 line, I tried the backup controller and it worked.)
They may have used a T-handle instead of the reverser key
to get more leverage. There may have also been concerns about
holding a car on the heavy grade. I recall that some of the
actuator/shaft brake combinations did not hold that well.
This is an issue that Muni faces.
One question about this - in '69 the Girard Ave bridge over the Schuylkill River was to be rebuilt, a multi-year project which would require the 15 line to be partially bus-operated (west of 26th St). This would sever the only rail connection between SEPTA's North Phila and West Phila streetcar operations. SEPTA decided at that time to move a large number of all-electrics to West Phila for subway duty (to get the newest cars there) and transfer the older air cars from Woodland and Callowhill to Luzerne for the North Phila lines. This would also put many of the Callowhill 2600 air-cars used on 15 at Luzerne temporarily for continued 15 service. As far as I knew, that's when the electrics started taking over the subway-surface in earnest (the low 2100's (and 2090's) and some 2700's had always been at Callowhill and for some reason were favored on 10 rather than 15). I know many ex-Luzerne 2100's ended up at Woodland and remained there even after the bridge reopened in '72. Did I miss something?
Route 13 used Chestnut and Walnut Street while Route 36 came in on 22nd and 23rd from the south, then took Market on the surface, all the way to Front, IIRC. Originally 37 and 38 were supposed to go in the subway instead of 13 and 36.
I've always loved the Philly system> it helped sooth my trolley-deprived sensibilities when the last Brooklyn trolley died in 1956. When I first saw Philly, I had just missed the Willow Grove Line.
Even married a Philly girl. How much more dedicated to a system can you get?
OK, another wrinkle. What were the original SIX subway-surface lines? Which was the first to operate in the subway?
OK,the sixth would have been the 31--Market & 63rd Streets. This one always puzzled me, since I would have expected that withe the MFSE above, why would that particular route need subway access?
So the six were 10,11,31,34,37,38.
As to the first? OK, you got me. But I would guess 10, just on the basis that it's such a heavy route.
Have you seen S.L. Hackbridge's article in The Third Rail?
The subway-surface opened partially in 1905 (only to 15th St, and cars had to switch over to the 'express' tracks to turn back, with a temporary platform for trolleys). The predecessor of 31 was the first to operate in the tunnel.
That was my OTHER guess ;-)
Nice article. Thanks for posting that link, Paul.
I've heard two reasons for this, and I don't know if either is correct. One was that the dimensions of the all-electrics were slightly larger than the air cars and some tunnel modifications would be needed before the electrics could run in the tunnel. Another was the all-electric braking system was thought to be insufficient on the under-river tunnel grades. As noted, these are the guesses I've been given. I know that the ex-Kansas City cars were not considered for subway duty due to the blinker doors (and when the K cars were ordered, guess what they had!).
Heard on 1010 WINS that tomorrow's Crain's Business News will have an article about Larry Silverstein's plans to break ground on the new 7 WTC on 9/11/02.
While I like the symbolism, the piece made it sound like he's going to rebuild the 47-story building as was. Aaaccckkkk! No ... no .... NO!
I'd heard he'd hired David Childs of Skidmore Owings Merrill as lead architect. Let us hope that at minimum, they reduce the footprint so the Greenwich Street ROW can be restored and 7 WTC doesn't serve as quite such an impenetrable barrier between TriBeCa and the WTC area as it used to.
In the area, already (according to the NYT piece flagged earlier today), TA crews have torn open West Broadway north of Vesey to start the inspection prior to rebuild. About 300 days to reopening in November, and counting ....
I think the addition of several staircases would have easily alleviated the problems I remember when heading down West Broadway from my high school nearby. That overpass would have been far more popular with street access on the other side...
Unfortunately my memory as to the exact configuration of the overpass is fuzzy, I rarely used it since it had no exits aside from using the escalators inside 7 WTC to get to street level.
Anyway, SOM kicks butt, I have confidence they will do the right thing.
That overpass would have been far more popular with street access on the other side.
Not sure which overpass you mean, but with luck the rebuilt site will have standard NYC-pattern streets and people can cross at regular old sidewalks like they do in the rest of the city. The whole overpass thing is Atlanta-style John Portman architecture. Bleeccchhhh.
SOM kicks butt, I have confidence they will do the right thing.
IF the client lets them and they haven't been hired merely as window dressing to put a new skin on the same old shape, floorplans and footprint ....
Ah, I just looked at the map again... might explain why I never walked down Greenwich Street... I couldn't even remember the name of the street. :)
The West Broadway & Barclay intersection was what annoyed me :) Its the Barclay overpass that I wished had outside access.
I personally somewhat enjoyed the streetless skyscraper park. It was nice having a choice between that and Battery Park City.
The "footprint" for the Con Ed substantions is the whole area underground.
Silverstein could rebuild to have Greenwich Avenue continue south, and "split" the building into two parts.
Greenwich Avenue disappeared with the original WTC project; only the view was taken away by 7 WTC (a particularly uninspired looking building). (Full disclosure - pre-9/11 I worked there.)
What is the maximum height / area allowed under zoning?
The "footprint" for the Con Ed substantions is the whole area underground.
Including the area under the former Greenwich, or just west of there?
I'm actually assuming Greenwich was demapped under 7 WTC, so it could be a real tough thing to get it put back on the maps, esp. if Silverstein paid $$$ to the city for the space it used to occupy.
Greenwich Avenue disappeared with the original WTC project; only the view was taken away by 7 WTC.
Yeah, but many, many people (in the swelling cacophony of rebuild ideas) are saying that it should be put back to tie the area into the rest of the western downtown. Esp. since there's a southern portion still remaining to connect to the northern end.
What is the maximum height / area allowed under zoning?
No idea, but it's got have a *high* FAR (floor-area ratio) since 7 WTC was 47 stories SHEER-SIDED from the ground. Bleecccchhhhh.
Unfortunately he will probably build exactly what was there before because that would require the least amount of approvals.
If your building is destroyed through no fault of your own the city can virtually never stop you from replacing it as is (there is an exception if it's a non-conforming building in a landmark district, which this isn't). But if you want to make changes, it may need to go through extensive review processes.
I agree that it would be great to restore Greenwich St. The other snag is that then you get a really messy intersection, where Greenwich doesn't quite meet up with W Broadway by the time it gets to Vesey. And I'd sure hate to see car traffic on a newly reconstituted Greenwich St all the way through the WTC site.
Now if only Silverstien would replace the Twin towers as was.
If 7WTC is going to be 47 stories, buildings 1 and 2 will have to be substantially higher.
Remember TV needs it's aerial space back too.
I would like to see a building like the Solow building on W 57th go there, but taller. I think that there should be three 70-80 story buildings go on the WTC site with a memorial building in red, white, and blue lit up with LED's.
The WTC should be visible from all parts of the city, after all it has to look like a WORLD trade center. The memorial should be able to be seen far as well.
The Triplet Towers!!
No less than 110 will do Let $ilver$tein play with his little 7WTC AMERICA NEEDS 1&2 BACK TALLER THAN EVER. If he don't like it, too bad
This morning's Newsday and Dow Jones newswire added that Tisman will build the new building (they built 7 WTC) and Skidmore Owings & Merrill will design it. Any site plans must still be approved by the Port Authority. (Original building was 47 stories and 2 million square feet. That's one BIIIIIIG building.)
Ground-breaking on 9/11/02 is tentative because Silverstein doesn't want to detract from memorial services expected to take place that day.
The fact that Skidmore's designing a new building makes me feel slightly better. With luck, it'll be better than the previous slab. Let's just hope for Greenwich ROW restoration, with or without actual vehicle traffic ....
How close is the IRT (under W. Broadway, but they're pretty close there) to the new Con Ed substation underneath the former 7 WTC? Do they abut?
I don't know if there really is an answer to this, but:
Since WTC 7 fell down also, because of the colapse of the two towers, I was wondering. Do you think the second tower would have fallen if not hit by the second plane, or would the collapse of the other caused it to fall?
Since WTC 7 fell down also, because of the colapse of the two towers, I was wondering. Do you think the second tower would have fallen if not hit by the second plane, or would the collapse of the other caused it to fall?
From what I've read, 7 WTC probably collapsed because of the diesel-fuel fire fed by the tank to supply the Mayor's Emergency Command Center. Both towers went pretty much straight down. If only one had been hit by a plane, it seems probable that the other would have stayed standing -- although with a lot of collateral damage of the sort seen in the Verizon building, the Deutsche Bank building and one of the WFC towers.
For me, the whole thing became unthinkably unreal when I heard that the second tower had collapsed. One collapsing was barely, infentisimally plausible. Two collapsing was beyond my ability to comprehend.
For me, the whole thing became unthinkably unreal when I heard that the second tower had collapsed. One collapsing was barely,
infentisimally plausible. Two collapsing was beyond my ability to comprehend.
When I first saw the burning towers at about 9:45, it looked from my perspective that the South Tower was in a much worse state than the other one. That's not to say that I ever imagined that it would fall, of course; all I thought was that the repair job would be much more difficult. Its fall was to me too a completely unthinkable event. Even after it was down, however, I still didn't think there was any chance that the North Tower would fall, as it didn't seem as severely damaged.
I had an even more dramatic scene. I was at 14th St/6th Ave waiting for an L going to Brooklyn when the south tower collapsed. Cut off from radio signals, I scoffed at one man who got on at 3rd Ave and said that one of the buildings had fallen. Since I was telling my story to everyone on the train who would listen (including the conductor), I immediatley contradicted him. Nobody in the train knew what was going on, so I was almost screaming at this guy to stop overdramatizing what had happened, that the building could NEVER collapse, it was designed to withstand an airplane impact, and that he was crazy. When I got booted from the system at Lorimer St. (the system was frozen), I got up to the street, put on my Walkman, tuned to 880 WCBS, where I heard the man say, with a trembling voice, that one of the towers collapsed. Being so close to Manhattan, I had an excellent view of lower Manhattan. I immediatley turned around, to see only one tower standing, amidst the smoke. Shaken, I continued walking up Union Ave, hoping I could get the J train at Broadway. About 10 minutes later, I heard on the radio that the other tower had collapsed (the female announcer was almost in tears, as she had to interrupt a live interview with some eyewitness to say this). I immediatley turned around to see lower Manhattan. Where one tower once stood, there was now nothing but a 110 story cloud of debris. Needless to say, I was VERY upset. I was still confused about what had actually happened. Even though I was there, I had not seen the impacts on TV, and had problems with my radio to get some information in that manner. I had no real grasp of what had happened until I got home.
7 WTC fell down because debris (some very heavy, some flaming) landed on and broke through its roof, causing a major fire that could not be put out. The huge oil tank in the basement may have been part of the problem. Eventually the building collapsed from the steel melting.
The insurance companies are claiming that even if there had been only 1 plane the other tower would have been unusable. That's quite possible, but an actual collapse would not have been very likely.
Any debris from one tower would have struck a glancing blow on the other. The basement area between the 2 towers would have been totally destroyed, but there is no reason to believe that the skin or the core of the second tower (each of which alone would have been strong enough to hold it up), much less both, would have been disastrously damaged by the collapse of the other tower. After all, people successfully escaped from the north tower even after the south tower had collapsed.
Note that even 4, 5, and 6 WTC were seriously damaged but not destroyed by the collapse of 1 and 2. It was the fires afterwards, again due to debris coming through the roofs, that made them unusable.
We will never know for sure what would have happened if only one tower had been hit.
My assumption (based on my knowledge of the plans for the WTC) is that the second tower would have stood, with considerable structural damage. Probably due to the massive damage to the basement area, it would have either been totally reconstructed while standing or torn down.
The fall of the South Tower did take out four WTC and the Marriott Hotel. Five and Six WTC (and Seven) were taken out by the North Tower.
We also do not know if the fire from the one tower collapse would have spread the same is it did when both fell. (Remember, there was remarkably little fire below ground outside the actual area of the tower collapse).
Do you think the second tower would have fallen if not hit by the second plane, or would the collapse of the other caused it to fall?
I'm assuming you mean the north tower falling, and the south tower with no plane impact?
Here are my thoughts on this (not a structural engineer):
There are a few scenarios that could have happened. Watching the collapse live, and looking at satellite photos, such as the one here, it looks like the north tower fell straight down and slightly to the north of itself. This is what caused 7 WTC to catch fire - on every floor - and collapse. (Engineers are still trying to find out why it collapsed after burning. Most steel core buildings that are completely burned out remain standing.) So, in this scenario, the the collapse of the north tower might have caused the bottom floors of the south tower to burn and require extensive repair, but may have been able to be extinguished by FDNY since it would have been easier to get to since it was near the gound.
Another scenario: The north tower falls the way it did, but actually ends up destroying most of the south tower's northern corner, and starts a fire. With heavy damage to the exterior support columns at the base of the structure, the weight of the remaining 100 floors on those missing columns would have eventually caused that corner of the tower to collapse. This would have caused the entire south tower to tilt and fall in a North-West direction, falling on top of the collapsed north tower, the Financial Center #2,3,4, the high school, CUNY, West ST. and possibly into part of the marina 30 W Bway, and who knows what and who else. Remember, all the rescue vehicles were lined up on West St. Scary.
Looking at the third photo here though, I have come up with the next horrible, and most likely, scenario:
The north tower falls, and looking at that picture, it fell pretty far from itself. As it falls, the debris rakes down about 80 floors of the south tower, creating massive structural damage. Those 80 floors on the NW corner then burn from the jet fuel and electrical damage to the tower. When the north tower hits the ground, the seimic effect causes the south tower to move ever so slightly, and triggers a NW collapse (same as the second scenerio.) Essentially, both towers collapse at the same time, and no one has time to evacuate the area after the collapse of the north tower, or get anyone else out of the south tower. This would have had thousands more causualties, and I feel sick even writing about it.
Perhaps the towers actually fell the "best" way they possibly could.
Now I feel like crap.
JR
One of the news sources mentioned that the two buildings falling registered over 3 on the Richter scale. I suppose a 3+ magnitude earthquake centered underneath another already damaged building would be a huge factor in destabilizing it further (like 7 WTC... not only was it on fire for hours but it stood through two 3+ magnitude quakes). Anyone who was in downtown Manhattan that day felt the "tremors".
I have friens who live in a Brooklyn Heights high-rise that could see the WTC collapse. They said they could feel it, and then hear it. That's an amazing amount of energy being sent through the ground and air.
All of my co-workers who didn't leave the area immediatley (as i did) described the south tower collapsing in frighting detail. From his vantage point ny J & R Music World, my friend said he could hear the steel structure "creaking" about a minute before the collapse. Many people in the immediate area actually said "I think it's gonna fall" before the entire structure started imploding. The sound of the implosion was akin to a "747" at full thrust. My friend had to race the debris cloud all the way up to the footing of the Brooklyn Bridge.
I'm so glad I got on the train when I did. I was able to make it to Brooklyn before the subways were frozen.
I have friens who live in a Brooklyn Heights high-rise that could see the WTC collapse. They said they could feel it, and then hear it. That's an amazing amount of energy being sent through the ground and air.
Dunno. I was at the corner of North Moore and Hudson streets when the South Tower fell, though my view was blocked by a nearby building. I heard a fairly but not tremendously loud boom, followed immediately by the screams and shouts of the people nearby who actually saw the collapse, but I did not feel anything, at least nothing that I noticed. In fact, as I've stated here before, I didn't realize that the tower had fell even after I ran from behind the building that had been blocking my view and looked south to see a huge dust cloud - I thought that a fuel tank had exploded. Only after a gust of wind briefly parted the dust cloud maybe 30 seconds later did it dawn on me just what had happened.
I'm sure the wind played a factor in how loud the sound was. It was blowing southeast, the opposite way from where you were.
JR
Not that this is really relevant or helpful, but I'm pretty sure the south tower would have survived quite well if the only north tower had been hit. The evidence is that the north tower was not disastrously damaged by the fall of the south tower, which did not fall perfectly straight down either. People still escaped the north tower after the south tower fell.
The evidence is that the north tower was not disastrously damaged by the fall of the south tower, which did not fall perfectly straight down either.
The difference is that the south tower actually fell slightly to the southeast. The area above the impact tilted as it collapsed causing the southeast sides to collapse (tenths of a second) before the northwest sides. This caused the majority of debris to fall away from the north tower.
The north tower fell fairly uniformly, so more debris would have been headed toward the other tower than when the south one collapsd.
I do think that the north tower would still be standing if it had not been hit by the plane. The fact that the tower's foundation was still intact after the south tower fell proves this, and dispells the rumor that one building would cause the other one to fall due to foundation damage. (That's what the insurance company is trying to tell us.)
After I watched the south tower fall, I remember thinking how strange it is going to be with only one tower standing, and wondering how long it will take to repair the damaged floors that the plane hit...
JR
After I watched the south tower fall, I remember thinking how strange it is going to be with only one tower standing, and wondering how long it will take to repair the damaged floors that the plane hit...
My thoughts exactly. I just couldn't imagine that the North Tower was in danger of collapse itself, as it didn't seem anywhere near as severely damaged.
Yeah, I couldn't imagine that they both would fall. I kept thinking to my self, "It's going to be hard to get the plane out so high.", and "Boy, it's gonna be a while till they let people back up there." I never even imagined that one, or even both would fall. I still can't believe it!
I'm assuming you mean the north tower falling, and the south tower with no plane impact?
Here are my thoughts on this (not a structural engineer):
Another scenario: The north tower falls the way it did, but actually ends up destroying most of the south tower's northern corner, and starts a fire. With heavy damage to the exterior support columns at the base of the structure, the weight of the remaining 100 floors on those missing columns would have eventually caused that corner of the tower to collapse. This would have caused the entire south tower to tilt and fall in a North-West direction, falling on top of the collapsed north tower, the Financial Center #2,3,4, the high school, CUNY, West ST. and possibly into part of the marina 30 W Bway, and who knows what and who else. Remember, all the rescue vehicles were lined up on West St. Scary.
I'm not an engineer or architect either, but based on what I've read about the situation, it doesn't seem likely that this terrible scenario could have happened. Basically, it does not appear possible for a tall building to fall horizontally like a tree. Part of that is due to the lack of a rigid base to act as a fulcrum. With a tree, of course, the stump fulfills that purpose. In addition, if a building did somehow start to fall horizontally, its weight would shear the floors apart before it got too far off the vertical and result in a reasonably compact spread of debris. There have been some fairly close real-world approximations of this effect when factory chimneys or radio towers have fallen. In other words, the maximum spread of debris from the fall of either tower would not be anything close to the tower's height.
Looking at the third photo here though, I have come up with the next horrible, and most likely, scenario:
The north tower falls, and looking at that picture, it fell pretty far from itself. As it falls, the debris rakes down about 80 floors of the south tower, creating massive structural damage. Those 80 floors on the NW corner then burn from the jet fuel and electrical damage to the tower. When the north tower hits the ground, the seimic effect causes the south tower to move ever so slightly, and triggers a NW collapse (same as the second scenerio.) Essentially, both towers collapse at the same time, and no one has time to evacuate the area after the collapse of the north tower, or get anyone else out of the south tower. This would have had thousands more causualties, and I feel sick even writing about it.
Once again, the South Tower's collapse under this scenario probably would not have resulted in a significantly greater debris spread than actually occurred. In addition, note that the evacuation of the South Tower began not long after the first impact and was in full swing by the time the second plane hit. That's why there were only 600 dead in the South Tower as compared to 1,400 dead in the North Tower (not counting rescuers) even though the South Tower was hit lower down and fell more quickly. Had the South Tower not fallen until the North Tower fell, the extra time would have allowed for an almost complete evacuation.
Once again, I have no professional-level knowledge of these facts, and am only repeating what I've read.
In addition, if a building did somehow start to fall horizontally, its weight would shear the floors apart before it got too far off the vertical and result in a reasonably compact spread of debris. There have been some fairly close real-world approximations of this effect when factory chimneys or radio towers have fallen. In other words, the maximum spread of debris from the fall of either tower would not be anything close to the tower's height.
Yes, that makes sense. I do wonder if the way the exterior columns were tied together would have allowed it to topple farther from vertical before breaking up? I did notice that when the north tower collapsed, the west side exterior columns were still standing up to about the 80th floor, and could be seen through the dust. They were up for a good 4-6 seconds after the initial collapse. That's pretty amazing!
Check out these photos from a Taiwan earthquake. Granted these buildings are nowhere near the height of the WTC, and would have less gravity working on them, but it is interesting how intact they are.
I think the south tower would have made it to the Financial Center though.
JR
Like almost everyone in the UK I spent that afternoon (it was afternoon over here, of course, when it happened) watching horror-struck as the TV coverage showed the events over and over again.
If the owners of a redundant tall building want to demolish it on purpose, there are two ways of doing it. One - used for redundant factory chimneys - is to fell it like a tree, cutting a notch at one side so that it falls in a pre-determined direction on to empty land. I've seen TV documentaries of it being done with such precision that the chimney falls along the middle of a street without damaging the buildings on either side of the street. The other method - used for redundant high-rise apartment buildings - is to make it fall straight down into its own footprint, more or less.
The Twin Towers fell in the second way. If they had fallen in the first way, like a factory chimney, the destruction would have been over a far larger area. And I think that was precisely what the 1993 attackers intended, which is why they tried to blow up one side only of the foundations of one tower.
There was an article about that in the Times after it happened. Basically the consensus was that the WTC could not have possibly fallen like a tree falls. Trees fall at a pivot, like the radius line of a circle, because they can't compress and disintigrate as they fall. A building on the other hand would never fall like a tree because once it is unstable enough, the top compresses down onto the lower levels and it falls straight, more or less, down. So I don't think anyone had anything to worry about, even in the 1993 bomb, of the WTC falling like a tree and crushing everything in its path for a 1500' radius.
Question about W8th on the Brighton and the Culver. Rode the Culver southbound from Ave X, changed to the Northbound Brighton at W8th. Clearly, this isn't done much--I had to cross under, and then go up two levels. It looks like this wasn't always the case though. Seems that the Brighton had a connection to run into the lower level at W8th, that got cut years ago. Is that correct? Why was the track taken out? Actually, why are there two levels there at all? Why not just merge the Brighton and the Culver there, for the last two stops? Also, it looked like the next stop south of Brighton Beach is set up as express, and that for a while, the Brighton is a six track main. What is all that for?
On the six track - The LIRR ran east of the BRT tracks.
The Brighton line had access to both levels prior to the takeover of the Culver line by the IND in October, 1954. After that date, the tracks connecting to the lower level from the local (outside tracks) at Ocean Parkway station were removed, but the trackways remain. I have some memories from the early '50s of weekend service where the Brighton locals to Manhattan used the lower level, along with the Culver trains, while the Brighton-Franklin expresses (Franklin-Nassau?) used the upper level.
As for the six tracks between Ocean Parkway and Brighton Beach (I think that's the six track stretch you're referring to), it's a mini-yard used for Brighton Express trains. Sometimes I wonder if they should have left the leads to the lower level at W. 8th St. in place for additional storage tracks.
-- Ed Sachs
IMO, there was no sensible reasons to remove the Brighton leads to lower level W8th, ecept to save some switches and the TA's compulsive desire to isolate the divisions operationally. Ditto failing to hook up the shuttle at Ditmas Avenue, though they built the steelwork for it.
I guess I should be glad they didn't sever the link to Coney Island Yard.
Were there ever tracks on the additional steelwork south of Ditmas?
The steelwork was built in conjunction with the shuttle track. I never saw any indication of trackwork there, and am fairly confident there never was any.
Paul : You mentioned the 1954 construction at Ditmas Avenue in the last post. Since that was originally built as a three track local station the fourth or westernmost track that was used by the shuttle must have been newer construction. Am I right in thinking this?
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Yup. Done by the TA to 'ease' things at that station.
The Culver Shuttle track on the west side of the southbond platform at Ditmas Ave. was built as part of the project to connect the IND subway to the Culver El. The steelwork for the extra track extended south of the station, apparently to support the shuttle track merging with the southbound track, but no track was ever laid there. There was a bumper post at the south end of the station from the beginning.
I buy into the theory that in 1954, the TA still wanted to keep the IND and BMT as separate as possible. I guess they felt that the connection at Stillwell Ave. and through the Coney Island yards was plenty -- no need for a connection at Ditmas Ave. or for the Brighton line to connect with the lower level at West 8th.
I also remember steelwork for a trackway that connected Track 1 (westernmost track, used by West End trains) to the lower level tracks toward West 8th south of Stillwell Ave. station. In my memory, there were never tracks on it -- both West End tracks ended in bumper posts at the south end. Does anyone know if there ever was such a track connection?
-- Ed Sachs
I buy into the theory that in 1954, the TA still wanted to keep the IND and BMT as separate as possible. I guess they felt that the connection at Stillwell Ave. and through the Coney Island yards was plenty -- no need for a connection at Ditmas Ave. or for the Brighton line to connect with the lower level at West 8th.
I've always looked at it as trying to maintain the least amount of trackage as possible. There's really no reason at all to have a connection from W8th lower level to Ocean Parkway. I mean, it's nice to have around 'just in case', but with the tracks meeting up 1 station away....
Ditmas Av. should have been connected, especially because that was it's original line. But with the existence of the 38th st yard, it's really of little importance to have the tracks connected (unless a train broke at Ditmas, which would suck.)
It also provided a convenient excuse to not run any of the old Culver/Nassau service after 1954, which may have been in demand when the IND took over the Culver line. This would've made the Culver shuttle tracks more important, therefore defeating the city's plan to eventually make the short section between Ditmas Ave & 9th Ave. useless and unusable.
Culver-Nassau continued to run until (IIRC) 1958, albeit truncated. But you are right in that the cutting off of most stations gave the TA the excuse to keep cutting back until there was just the shuttle and finally, nothing.
But if the track connection was made south of Ditmas, they could theoretically run the rush hour Culver/Nassau service to Chambers even after the connection to the IND, although a nightmare grade crossing in the morning rush would have made it impractible. No track connection made this absolutley impossible. Some old man who had ridden the Culver line to Chambers St since it opened therefore had no ability to complain about his loss of direct service to the financial district in 1954.
Quite right. There was no real excuse for not making that connection, even if only for emergency running.
For a while I lived at a location on Ocean Parkway where it was more convenient for me to use 18th Avenue Culver station than Ditmas. But I used to walkto Ditmas to get the shuttle rather than go to 18th Avenue, walk down and up again and possibly have to wait for two different trains (D at 18th Ave., then the shuttle at Ditmas).
The Culver-Nassau ran until 1959, when it was replaced by an all-day (weekdays) West End local and the Culver Shuttle. Of course, running the West End local all day from AM to PM rush also meant the end of the weekday midday West End express to midtown.
Part of the 'excuse' for turning the Culver line into a shuttle was the opening of the transfer from the IND to the BMT at 9th St and 4th Ave, giving IND Culver line riders another place to transfer to BMT trains to Nassau St.
-- Ed Sachs
The westernmost track at Coney Island is Track 8 (platform designation after c.1958) or Track H (Signal/BMT designation). Track G/7 was connected at one time, but I doubt Track H/8 ever was, even though the steelwork for it was there.
At any rate, it was, it would probably have been severed when the new platforms and connection to the Norton's Point trolley were built in 1924.
There's a picture in Greller's book showing the West End platform with a wooden platform built over the outermost track as it curves towards the Culver tracks. It's dated in the 1940's, so a connection must've existed at one time.
That shows that there was woodwork over the steelwork and argues for the connection, but doesn't prove it. The covered walkway that you see running from the West End platform is the 1924 connection to Norton's Point Line that I mentioned which would have severed the connection, if it existed.
A bit more explanation: the reason I say "doesn't prove it" it because there is only a short stub or rail from the end of Track H. The BRT/BMT (as many other systems) was notorious for not ripping up what didn't need to be. Prime example: the north (west) bound Franklin Avenue track was covered with a wood platform at the same time (1924). When the platform was torn out after the fire, the track was still there, 60-odd years later.
Now if we just had a picture or feeder diagram from 1920....
There's more than steelwork in this picture. If you look on page 30, you'll see the wooden walkway is built over actual track, albiet unused track in poor condition with missing rails.
Didn't the BMT keep the Broadway Ferry structure up for 24 years after it's closure?
Yes, and the Fulton Ferry structure. I believe both were kept operational and used for storage at times. And don't forget the Chestnut Street incline.
IMO, the BRT/BMT had an unusual sense that "who knows, we might want it someday" plus a desire not to surrender franchise rights.
IMO, the BRT/BMT had an unusual sense that "who knows, we might want it someday" plus a desire not to surrender franchise rights.
You mean half an ounce of common sense. Suppose it is unusual.
Yes, the fourth track was added in 1954 specifically for the Shuttle. Look at any picture of Ditmas Avenue southbound platform and you will see that the roof was never altered to account for drainage of an island platform, which is what it became.
Interesting, and informative. But still, why two levels at W8th? Both BRT lines could use the lower level, if there was no upper level. So, why'd the BRT create two levels? Anyone?
The Brighton was the heaviest line, then as now, and the Culver was relatively heavier than it is now. Two tracks with switching and a grade crossing at W8 would have been insufficient.
As to the lower level connection for the Brighton, it gave the BMT routing flexibility to send locals to the lower level while operating expresses to the upper level, though in practice this was more used on summer weekends to route Brighton Locals to share the lower level with the Culver while Franklin/Nassaus (through trains) used the upper.
Franklin/Nassaus were a very important service through the '40s, which you would never guess from today Toonerville Trolley Franklin Shuttle.
The Brighton was the heaviest line, then as now, and the Culver was relatively heavier than it is now.
You wouldn't think so with the service patterns that ran on the Culver pre 1954, with only rush hour service via Nassau St and absolutley no service via Broadway to midtown.
That's not so. The Culver trains ran to Nassau Street all day, local during midday, express at rush hours, before 1954. Between 1931 and 1940, there were Culver trains via the 4th Avenue subway AND the 5th Avenue L, the latter also express during rush hours.
Anyway, the BRT designed Coney Island terminal to deal with four lines and busy weekends. People were coming from Brighton Line points, transfers from the A Line and/or Fulton L at Franklin Avenue, from Park Row and the 2nd and 3rd IRT els via Culver or Franklin-Nassaus. The joint was jumping. It was an advantage for the BRT to have two levels W8 to Stillwell just to minimize the idspatching headaches.
I was under the impression that Culver service after 1940 still ran only during rush hours to Chambers St, and a shuttle from 9th Ave operated other times.
It ran a variery of services in the BofT/NYCTA era. They continued to run an elevated service (!) from Ninth Avenue SOUTH to Coney Island. I don't recall whether this was daytime or just rush hours (and I'm too lazy to look it--maybe Larry will come to the rescue).
During rush hours it ran Culver-Nassau expreses, via bridge, loop, tunnel while West End Short Line ran via tunnel, loop, bridge. During midday hours they ran Culver Locals via tunnel to Chambers Street both ways.
These continued until either 1958 or 1959 (I think '58) even after the D train took over south of Ditmas.
At other times they ran from Ditmas to 36th Street, where there were much betetr connections. I took it as a sign they were finally trying to kill the shuttle once and for all they cut back the northern destination to 9th Avenue.
Prior to 1931 (when the Nassau Loop opened), the Culver line was served exclusively by 5th Ave. El trains. From 1931 until 1940 (when the 5th Ave. El came down), El service from Sands St or Park Row to Coney Island via Culver was basically a rush-hour and "sunny summer weekends" only operation -- other times, El trains terminated at 9th Ave. I think that the main reason they continued rush hour El service was the shortage of steel subway cars did not provide enough equipment to run all Culver trains via the 4th Ave. subway -- in fact, rush hour Culver Nassau trains turned at Kings Highway, and ran non-stop on the center track in the off-peak direction between Kings Highway and 9th Ave.
When the El came down in 1940, the service was changed so that rush hour Culver-Nassau trains (still terminating at Kings Highway) used the express track in the peak direction, and a stop at 18th Ave. was added. Rush hour local service, using wooden El cars, ran from 9th Ave. to Stillwell Ave. This arrangement persisted until the IND took over the Culver line in 1954.
-- Ed Sachs
From 1931 until 1940 (when the 5th Ave. El came down), El service from Sands St or Park Row to Coney Island via Culver was basically a rush-hour and "sunny summer weekends" only operation -- other times, El trains terminated at 9th Ave.
Not eactly. Culver provided the base service on the 5th Avenue L at the time. 5th Avenue L service was reduced in 1934 so that they coupled to Culver trains, except during rush hours, and at the end ran as a shuttle 36-Bay Ridge except during rush hours.
Culver L trains also provided the base on the L to Coney Island. Culver-Nassaus only ran weekdays (which included Saturdays in those days) from about 7 am to 8 pm.
Culver L trains did run only to 9th Avenue (from Sands Street) midday weekdays, letting the Culver-Nassau cover the route, but even this cutback was suspended in August and September.
OK the new pick starts in February.
Any word on when the effective day is?
Service changes? NOT ones you want, the rest of the board had that.
Already? I guess this will be a short pick.
PBD:
I think Wannabe is referring to the B division pick. I think it still kinda short but whatever..... Notices are out for potential A to B transfer to put their requests in.
Actually the notice says A&B but only mentions A to B transfers NOT B to A.
I seen the notice at Woodlawn today. The written request has to be in by Jan 30.
I'm thinking about making the transfer just to see how it is. I may try to go for something out of 207,168, or 205 St. I may try the L on weekends just to get my hands on the R143.
If I do go over its just going to be a 1 pick event.
I may be wrong, but if you transfer it is a commitment of at least 12 months, not one pick. Check it out beforehand.
Current policy is 6 months. I last transferred from the IRT to the B division for the winter 2000 pick. Expect to see a notice soliciting transfers for the B to A shortly.
You currently are doing two locals on the 1 to New Lots. Trust me, once you come here, you'll stay. At least for now.
Think about it:
Riding the A over the Rockaway flats and 2 express runs.
On the C, two locals to Euclid
On the D, three express trips to 34 St, or three locals on the B out of BPK/145.
I wouldn't do the L if I were you, unless you can get a three tripper. Too far to travel to work, and no guarantee that you'd actually get the 143.
The R143 passed the test so the is a guarantee the he will get the R143's once they start running more. As for the pick, the only pick that I have seen is for the section pick. The Southen section is repicking becouse on the N line only going to 86 street. The T/O on the N complaned that they picked one thing and are getting another. But it would not be a bad thing if the hole B division dose pick again. This was I might be able to get out of Work Trains faster. I do want to get back to the road, even if the work is easyer on the Work Trains sometimes.
Robert
The B pick starts in February. Really it is not so crazy as the last general pick started in September. Two shorter picks in a row might mean lots of retirees, lots of expected retirees and this one will be a long pick.
Apparently, even though the picking starts in February, it will not go into effect until May.
Makes sense they go thru like 100 names a day so that is like 37 business days. Actually faster since it is only B.
Expect lower penalties on F jobs, a few more switching jobs. I think they want more OTS T/Os on switching. Even the Vet road guys get pissed when they do their own relay while watching 4 switchmen sitting there.
Because if you start doing your own relay the TA will cut those jobs.
Sure the relay is in your road program but you come into CTL 5 late and see 4 guys sitting around and you think why can't they at least double end me. The road has to be blown up totally to get a double end.
At 179 they got smart to guys coming in late to avoid the relay so you start the job with the relay. With 20 minute headways the three switchman should be able to relay for you and have a spare guy in case of a B/O train.
Not to denigrate in any way ... even in rush at 205th, you'd roll your pig into the relay, and walk the train of course ... but you ALSO had to check signs and adjust as necessary and then take her back out from the terminal WITHOUT falling back ... your relay ended at Bedford in those days. It might STILL be that way. There was a switchman assigned to the 205 platform as well, but you'd never see him. :)
Now you get the double end even on the midnights even thought the D is now a cakewalk. There are 3 midnight switchmen too up there at 205 and they also like to keep a board guy there plus they have a yard full of guys a stop away. The Supt up there seems very hands on. At 179 he seems more in Brooklyn. At some places there are mid night standards and rules and AM rules, the D really is not like that. If someone is late to start their put in, they get someone to cover it fairly quickly not 5 mins before the train goes out. On the F they just yell it's preinspected and make you take it out. I have seen preinspected trains zoned up wrong and the HVAC breakers all nuts of course then it is your fault.
On the D it's a federal case if you go out 2 late even on the midnights unless there is a damn good reason. On F you can go out 20 mins late with a follower and not even get a skip on the midnights.
You really do need those guys cleaning out trains is more labor intensive then it was 30 yrs ago when you could still beat er influence the passengers with your paddle.
I don't know if it is that as the job got easier up there the people got nicer or it's management the sets the tone or some good dispatchers, I was not up there pre Bridge flip.
While you were sunning your hynie there was a GO on the J Chambers to Canal. We would make a r/t for each J at Canal. Now if they extended the shuttle to Essex and cut the J to Essex or some form of that this actually would not be such a bad service. The whole J as OPTO is nuts but this might not be a bad place to try it.
Figure that as soon as the B Div pick is over, the A Div will start picking and BOTh will go into effect in May.
I feel sorry for the pick guys with only one divison picking updating that board is going to be fast and furious all day long
The A division pick is supposed to last through Memorial Day.
No, I left the No.1 Line in Dec. I am now currently doing two days on the No.4 Line, 2 days on the No.5 Line and 1 day on the No.6 Line.
The C Line is only 2 trips that sounds good. The D Line sounds good as well.
The D is the best thing out there except for the B. If you live up north and don't need the penalty money the B & D is a no brainer. A B job is as good as B job, if you know what I am talking about.
The C is mostly 3 trippers I think.
You got the wrong guy, Zman.
TrainDude had informed me that my seniority went up a few notches...I'm towards the end of the CI list BUT NOT the last page and we're Jan 17th which is the LAST day. Hopefully, the RIPs will hold their places and leave day inspection slots open. CI Peter
I hope the pick works out for you. Its a good feeling knowing that you moved up.
Thanx. I moved up a few spots like everyone else because of resignments and retirements. The rumor mill is churning out tons of wheel cuttings about the previous exams and the elegibility lists and my crew is re applying for the CI test 'just in case.' What's fifty bucks compared to what we have been given??? God Bless, CI Peter
Misread it.
RUMOR has an effective date of 5 May 02.
Looking at timetables for both gets me confused as to what trains go where, so can I get some help from LIers here?
North trunk:
1) Are Ronkonkoma Branch trains express only from Jamaica to Hicksville?
2) Would an express on the Port Jefferson Branch be considered trains that don't stop at Cold Spring Harbor, Syosset, Westbury, and Carle Place?
3) Although Holis, Queens Village, and Bellrose are listed as Hempstead Branch stops, and likewise for New Hyde Park and Merillon Avenue for Oyster Bay Branch, do trains for those two respective branches stop at those stations, or do Port Jefferson Branch trains handle those stops?
4) I understand that Ronkonkoma Branch trains do directly into Penn Station, and that Oyster Bay trains commonly go to Hunters Point Avenue since the line is non-electrified at both ends. Where do trains that originate at Port Jerfferson, Huntington, and Hempstead normally go to?
South trunk:
1) Do Babylon or West Hempstead Branch trains stop at St. Albans? (Because whenever I'm out that far in Queens I frequently see trains flying by the station or stopping there even though they don't necessarily serve the branch that station is assigned to.)
2) I understand that Babylon Branch trains are the direct trains into Penn Station, and that Far Rockaway Branch trains are the direct trains to Flatbush Avenue. Where do Long Beach and West Hempstead Branch trains commonly end up?
3) Although stations between Jamaica and Lynbrook are listed as Far Rockaway and Long Beach Branch stops, I see Babylon trains either stopping or passing through there. What's up with that?
4) Montauk Branch: Given that it's non-electrified, do trains alternate between Penn Station and Hunters Point Av. depending on where they originated (e.g. Speonk, Patchouge, Montauk)?
Here's a few answers...
1. Most Ronkonkoma trains stop at Mineola and Hicksville before making the local Ronkonkoma stops (Bethpage...). On weekends, you can add New Hyde Park and Carle Place as stops between Jamaica and Hicksville.
2. ?
3. Bellerose, Queens Village and Hollis are only served by Hempstead branch trains. As the track is currently configured, Bellerose can only be served by Hempstead trains. QV and Hollis can be served by the other branches, and had such service as recently as last summer.
4. Ronkonkoma and Huntington generally go to Penn. Hempstead usually goes to Flatbush. Oyster Bay usually goes only as far as Jamaica. Port Jeff is sometimes a shuttle to Hicksville or Huntington but also runs to Jamaica at some times. During rush hours, there are some Penn-Hempstead, FBA-Ronk and FBA-Huntington trains.
1. St. Albans is listed on the West Hempstead branch timetable. Which is very nice, except that almost no West Hempstead trains (except for a few AM peak trains) stop there. St. Albans is in practice a Babylon branch stop.
2. Babylon and Long Beach are usually Penn Station trains. Far Rock is Flatbush and West Hempstead is usually a shuttle to either Jamaica or Valley Stream. Again, there are rush hour exceptions to these.
3. Some Babylon branch trains (usually the rush hour Freeport trains) will use the Atlantic Branch (Rosedale/Laurelton/Locust Manor) to reduce congestion in the interlockings east of Jamaica. None of the trains make any stops, though.
4. Other than the one Speonk-Penn dual mode train, service on the Montauk branch is ends at either Babylon or Jamaica.
CG
Thanks for the responses. I've got to say that if I were the towerman at either Harold or Jamaica, I would be getting headaches and repetitive motion injuries trying to figure out which train is going where and setting the switches accordingly.
To my understanding, the shuttles on PJ are between PJ and Huntington, particularly during middays and weekends and have diesels on the point. With the DM/DE30s (or the lack thereof, as I hear), the LIRR has the capacity to run Oyster Bay trains through Jamaica to either Penn or Hunters Point, since before trying to do so would have both strained capacity and brought the old diesels into Midtown (which I believe is still against the law in NYC, isn't it?). If not, then I believe the old service pattern would apply, wouldn't it?
Dose the WH still sometimes use buses on its shuttles, or was that simply for a project that was done a few years ago? In any case, the shuttles on WH go only to Valley Stream for a transfer to either a LB or Babylon train. Same thing for FR, only in its case it goes to Jamaica since trying to terminate at Valley Stream would leave it with only one track and platform for both LB and Babylon trains to work with. WH shuttles should be the exception since they are more rare than the FRs.
WH trains are trains that operate during the weekdays and nights to Valley Stream, and other times go to Jamaica. Rush Hour trains run mostly to Flatbush Ave., except 1 AM run does go to Penn Station. This thing with the buses was only a project. Valley Stream has a storage track east of the tower which was built in the mid 80's, and because of that, shuttles from any branch would terminate on #2 which gives a connection train the usage of #1 track. FR branch has a interlocking just before the first bridge (Roosevelt Ave). for a train to go from 1 to 2. By law, no and I repeat no diesel under diesel power is permitted in the tunnels due to safety codes, except in emergencies only.
2) Would an express on the Port Jefferson Branch be considered trains that don't stop at Cold Spring Harbor, Syosset, Westbury, and Carle Place?
Unlike the subway, "local" and "express" stations are not always set in stone on the railroads. Most Huntington "express" trains that stop at Westbury. Sometimes they'll do Mineola-Westbury-Hicksville-Syosset-Huntington. Some rush hour trains don't stop until Westbuty or Hicksville. A "local" would make all stops from New Hyde Park through Huntington.
3) Although Holis, Queens Village, and Bellrose are listed as Hempstead Branch stops, and likewise for New Hyde Park and Merillon Avenue for Oyster Bay Branch, do trains for those two respective
branches stop at those stations, or do Port Jefferson Branch trains handle those stops?
New Hyde Park, Merilon Ave, and Mineola are listed as Port Jefferson Branch stations, though some years ago they were listed as Oyster Bay branch trains. Since nearly every train that stops at these stations is going to/from Huntington (or also Ronkonkoma or Montauk at Mineola), it sort of makes sense that they're listed on the Port Jeff Branch timetable.
BTW I believe there's a miniscule number of trains from Huntington which stop at the north platform of Floral Park.
3) Although stations between Jamaica and Lynbrook are listed as Far Rockaway and Long Beach Branch stops, I see Babylon trains either stopping or passing through there. What's up with that?
The Far Rockaway, West Hempstead, and Long Beach lines all branch off the Babylon line.
Babylon/Montauk trains NEVER stop at Valley Stream, unless there's an emergency. That is, of course, not really never. Once or twice during my time travelling from Lindenhurst my train did stop at Valley Stream when a Far Rock Branch train was cancelled.
Lynbrook is often a stop made by local Babylon trains.
:-) Andrew
"Babylon/Montauk trains NEVER stop at Valley Stream"
The technicality police report back that the 4:39AM train from Babylon to Penn does make a scheduled stop at Valley Stream at 5:20AM (you'd only know this if you look at a Long Beach branch schedule or if you actually ride this train). I believe it is the only scheduled Valley Stream stop on the Babylon branch.
CG
The technicality police
LOL!
My bad. You realize there was a caveat in that "NEVER", though. With the LIRR, few things are absoulte. (One excpetion: You will NEVER get there on time.)
:-) Andrew
A few summers ago I remember several weekend afternoon Babylon trains stopped at VS... or mabye only one and I kept getting it over and over again...
BTW I believe there's a miniscule number of trains from Huntington which stop at the north platform of Floral Park.
That one AM westbound electric train that originates in East Williston on the Oyster Bay branch (and has been discussed here on Subtalk before) does stop at Floral Park.
In addition there are two or three AM eastbound trains that stop at Floral Park and then continue on the Main Line rather than the Hempstead branch.
North
1. A lot stop at Mineola
2. Don't Know
3. Few if any non Hempstead trains stop at QV, Bellerose, or Hollis. Ditto for thE Oyster Bay Stations.
4.Huntington trains go to Penn, Port Jeff goes to H. Point, Hempsted I think, majority to Brooklyn, but some to Penn.
South
1.All W. Hempstead go to St. Albans. Few, if any other branch trains stop there.
2.Long Beach and Far Rockaway go to Brooklyn, except some rush hour Penn train.
3. I don't think any Babylon trains stop at the stations between Lynbrook and Jamaica. A few do stop at Lynbrook though.
4.Only one train each way on the non-electrified part of Montauk branch goes to Penn at this time. There will be more in the future.
To Answer the North Trunk:
1. Ronk trains are usually express with making Mineola and Hicksville as the main stops except 1 eastbound train (#2098 From Flatbush Ave. to Ronkonkoma) makes local stops from New Hyde Park to Ronkonkoma. Some trains make local stops from Mineola to Ronkonkoma ex. #2008 although it skips other stops east of Hicksville. Train 2029 makes all stops (except Carle Place) to New Hyde Park. All Huntington trains (especially middays) make local stops from New Hyde Park to Huntington. During the weekends, Ronkonkoma trains stop at New Hyde Park, Mineola, Carle Place, Hicksville and all stops to Ronkonkoma. Huntington trains stop at Merillon Ave., Mineola, Westbury, Hicksville, and all stops to Huntington. Some westbound Port Jeff trains skip all stops from Huntington to Jamaica, or if they don't, stop at Cold Spring Harbor, Syosset, Hicksville, Westbury, and Mineola before making Jamaica its last stop. All Port Jeff trains on weekends either originate with passengers from Hicksville, or Huntington. This does not mean that a deadhead move does not originate from Jamaica though, because those westbound trains that go there have to deadhead back to make the need for equipment. See it for yourself.
2. Regarding express on the PJ branch, technically expresses are those which stop at Syosset and Hicksville to or from Huntington, but others will be considered a local.
3.Stops west of New Hyde Park are occasionally used for westbound trains. A few Huntington trains going westbound stop at Queens Village and Hollis enroute. One AM E. Williston Train #1501 stops at Floral Park north platform. 3 Eastbound Huntington trains stop at Floral Park before they continue eastward on the main line. That station has 3 platforms (1 for eastbound Hempstead trains, 1 for westbound main line trains and the center platform for westbound Hempstead trains and eastbound Main Line trains). No eastbound trains stop from Hollis to Queens Village. Bellerose is a center platform based between the 2 Hempstead Branch tracks, so it is only used for Hempstead trains.
4. One Ronkonkoma train #2068 originates from Hunterspoint Ave. 2 trains #2098 and 2064 originate from Flatbush. Westbound #2019 goes to Flatbush. Until the newest timetable #2010 originated from Jamaica, now originates at Penn Station. Yes all originate from Penn, except those I mentioned. One Oyster Bay train both ways go to Penn Station. One westbound and 2 eastbound trains go to LIC via Montauk Branch with no stops between Jamaica and LIC. Most terminate at Jamaica except a few trains ends at Mineola with the turnaround at Queens interlocking. Huntington trains are Penn Station trains except #1621 is a diesel train to Hunterspoint, and 2 go to Flatbush in AM rush, and 1 early morning eastbound and 2 PM rush hours originate from Flatbush. Port Jeff trains have 2 AM and PM rush hours going to Penn Station with all the rest going to Hunterspoint. A few originate from Jamaica, but most from either Huntington or Hicksville. Hempstead normally is Flatbush Ave., except some do go to Penn Station.
I don't know whether CSX has completly taken over operations in this neck of the woods or whether Conrail is still hanging around. But in any case, is this connection from the old NH "Harlem River Branch" to the Metro North mainline (by way of branching off the NH at 143rd St/Southern Blvd., WNW under the park thru the tunnel, N under Westchester Av. by South Bronx High School, underground again turning W thru Melrose to meet the mainline) still being used by freight, or has it been abandoned for all intents and purposes due to the existence of the Oak Point link?
The Oak Point Link has apparently made this connection redundant, which results in the track not being used. The trackage hasn't been used in quite sometime. Grass is starting to grow over the tracks, not to mention the accumulation of garbage.
Recently, a few of the cars belonging to the trash train could be found stored on this track.
-Stef
The Oak Point Link has apparently made this connection redundant, which results in the track not being used.
Hmmmmm. Can we imagine any transit uses for it?
Don't know at this point. Metro North RR to Penn Station? Heh.
-Stef
Don't know at this point. Metro North RR to Penn Station? Heh.
IIRC, the MTA's planning study said that connecting the Harlem line to the New Haven line so that Harlem trains could run over Hell Gate was too complicated -- bad grade problems, tight turns, private property would have to be taken. Since I don't know the tunnel etc. that you're discussing, I'm assuming that it's that connection ... or am I off?
That's the one.
-Stef
Grass is not simply starting to grow over the tracks. It's starting to take over the tracks in some areas. Garbage lines the link from the portal at 149th Street and St. Ann's Av. to the other end near South Bronx High. And, IMO, the tracks themselves need to be tested for "shelling," since they've been exposed to the elements for so long.
It is inactive, though not offically abandoned. CSX took over all bronx & queens former CR operations. The oak point link is used by both CSX runs to oak point and harlem river (trash trains) and CP Rail (to fresh pond in queens - they were granted access for competitive purposes).
The old branch has height and car length restrictions. The new link has some height restrictions, but will eventually be cleared for 19' once all bridges over it are finished rebuilding. car length is no problem. The link also rids the need of crossing all MN mainline tracks, run around, etc.
I can understand the height restrictions (I see that the tunnel is low when passing over it on the #2), but why the car legnth restrictions?
...does VIA rail substitute their crews for the American crews, or do they uncouple the Amtrak engine for the VIA engine?
Two years ago, I took the Maple Leaf to Toronto. At Niagara Falls, Ontario the crews changed but the loco's remained the same. This may have been an exception but I have also seen other AMTRAK locos from Montreal and through London to Sarnia.
Two years ago, I took the Maple Leaf to Toronto. At Niagara Falls, Ontario the crews changed but the loco's remained the same. This may have been an exception but I have also seen other AMTRAK locos from Montreal and through London to Sarnia.
It depends on the situation, mostly the hours of service act.
On the Adirondack, a crew takes the train to Albany. A new crew takes the train all the way to Montreal, spends the night and comes back to Albany the next day.
When Amtrak ran the Montrealer, the Amtrak crew ran as far as Saint Albans. A CN crew (no change in engines) took the train into Montreal.
The Amtrak crew rested in St. Albans (8 hours off) and returned to work around 8 p.m. (?) for the return trip to Palmer, MA, where another crew took the train in New Haven.
If the Amtrak crew went into Montreal, they wouldn't have enough time off to rest before working the return trip.
Michael
When I rode the "Maple Leaf" in Apr. 2001, the equipment ran thru, but the dinette craw AND INVENTORY changed at Niagra Falls, Ont.
When I rode the "International" in the early '90's, a Via LRC loco hauled Amtrak Superliners, but I think that was done every other day. At some times in the past, Via and Amtrak each supplied one set of coaches. (The LRC locos that VIA supplied may have been the ones that were tried out on Amtrak long ago, and still had Amtrak's 480 volt head end power.) The snack bar attendent and the inventory worked thru, but the prices changed from Canadien to American dollars at the border. In most cases, you needed less American than Canadien money to buy the same stuff, due to the exchange rate - but I noticed that Molson beer was more expensive in U.S. dollars. The attendent said that was because in Ontario, it was a cheep domestic beer, and in Michigan, it was an expensive imported beer!
When I rode the "Montrealer in Feb., 1990, the sleeping and dining car crews worked thru, and some of the supplies for the whole trip, like cartons of milk, were made in Canada.
When I rode the "Adirondak" in Feb., '94 the loco ran thru. In earlier times, when Turboliners were used, the whole train had to run thru, and I don't think a Canadien loco was added to tow it!
VIA engines don't enter the US unless the Amtrak engine is disabled in Canada. VIA cars never cross the border anymore.
I don't know about the Vancouver Talgo, but the Adirondack's Amtrak crew goes thru. The Maple Leaf and International are pooled with VIA.
The Maple Leaf gets VIA food service and train crews at Niagara Falls, ONT. The International has Amtrak food service to Toronto, but a VIA train crew at Port Huron, MI.
Here's the study I referred to in another thread on stadiums. I'm paraphrasing a summary of its findings from the NY Times (link to original article below).
"The Economics of Sports Facilities and Their Communities," by John Siegfried of Vanderbilt University and Andrew Zimbalist of Smith College, appeared in the Summer 2000 issue of The Journal of Economic Perspectives.
They conclude stadiums do not generate enough revenue to cover their cost of construction. First, if they did, owners would pay for construction themselves.
Second, to justify government subsidies, a stadium must generate enough economic activity to offset the subsidies. But individuals' spending at the ballpark is offset by reductions elsewhere. A person's total budget for leisure activities is largely inflexible, so $$$ spent at the ballpark are offset by fewer $$$ spent on movies or concerts, playing golf or dining out.
This substitution effect is generally ignored in the studies done by stadium owners to show how much economic activity a stadium generates.
Robert Baade of Lake Forest College and Allen Sanderson of the University of Chicago found that adding new stadiums had no net effect on employment in 10 cities between 1958 and 1993. Other studies note that ballplayers actually spend most of their (increasingly high) salaries outside the home city. Just 29% of pro basketball players have permanent homes near the cities where they play.
As for NYC, the money Giuliani wanted to give to the Yanks and the Mets would increase school spending by $1,000 *per pupil* ... or cover the entire FDNY annual budget.
I'm convinced. No funding for stadiums!
TRANSIT CONTENT: I am, however, in favor of funding for a Yankee Stadium stop on the Metro North Hudson line. It's a no-brainer.
(Here's the link to the New York Times article that summarized the studies. Registration is required!)
could i ask a question about stadiums with { on topic } rail transit systems going to them ..
thankz ..
You don't need to ask permission, if it's trasnit related, it's all you, my man.
TRANSIT CONTENT: I am, however, in favor of funding for a Yankee Stadium stop on the Metro North Hudson line. It's a no-brainer.
I can't imagine why such an obvious thing wasn't built years ago.
I have uploaded the third album of 36 thumbnails of my scanned 35 mm slides, covering from Sept 1980 to Oct 1983.
Great photos, Bob. I enjoy them all!
Chaohwa
Many thanks for the photos.
any word on when PATH will be needing Engineers and C/Rs? I would like to apply for such positions.
Hi there,
I frequently read posts but have never posted myself. This morning I was struck with something though and thought this would be a good place to ask.
On the uptown local N/R/W track at Times Square (towards the "rear", when you come down the stairs at the 39th street entrance) there is always tons of water - especially after heavy rains. I would assume this heavy flow of water could not be good for the overall integrity of the structure. For example - steal beams are VERY corroded, and there must be some sort of impact on the concrete. I'm sure there are other locations on the subway where this is taking place.
So my question - is there any kind of negative impact caused by all this water flow into the station?
I'm no engineer but you have to figure that constant water flow over a lengthy period of time has a deleterious effect on underground structures. You yourself noted corrosion on the steel support beams and water flow erodes and weakens concrete. Water flow is a problem at many underground stations and sometimes NYCT simply cannot find the source(s) of the leakages.
On the uptown local N/R/W track at Times Square (towards the "rear", when you come down the stairs at the 39th street entrance) there is always tons of water - especially after heavy rains. I would assume this heavy flow of water could not be good for the overall integrity of the structure. For example - steal beams are VERY corroded, and there must be some sort of impact on the concrete.
The TA has been slowly and systematically moving through the system and fixing station leaks. One of the worst was the 1986 "renovation" of the 23rd Street Lex IRT station. A couple of years ago, they opened up one sidewalk at a time, excavated, repaired, sealed and replaced concrete ... and seem to have completely fixed the leaks.
Don't know the particulars, or whether it's groundwater or actual broken pipes. Probably a mix of both. But the leak-fixing program is similar to the grate-rebuild program where they rebuilt all the ventilation gratings along the Broadway BMT in the 20s & 30s ... two of the many TA capital programs that are hardly glamorous, cost a ton of $$$ but are crucial to maintain an early 20th century system through the 21st and into the 22nd century.
As for Time Square, given the amount of above-ground work being done for the station rebuild ($100 million, did I hear?), I'm sure those leaks will be fixed. They haven't done much on the BMT platforms yet, just the mezzanines. I'm sure the platforms will get done once the leaks are fixed.
Chambers Street BMT is a fairly stark example of the damage that water can cause.
You can include Canal and Bowery in on that also.
ESPECIALLY Canal, even now, after the renovation of the lower level (Q), and (W) platforms.
Yeah the formally abandoned station is always full of water trickling throught the ceiling, and rolling down some of the stairways. Although we have to remember why the street is called "Canal"
Yeah, I know, I know :-D One time, during a MASSIVE rain storm, rain was pouring into the tunnel just north of Canal (on the N/R section) on the Southbound trackway. But again, we know why it's called Canal Street...duhhhhh :-P
Stuart
The Lenox line has a lot of problems with water in the tunnels, doesnt it?
The cross-avenue tunnel that the (2) and (3) use to reach the Lenox section of the line was closed for the better part of '99 (IIRC) due to the water damage.
It takes years for a serious structural problem to develop,
but a service-affecting track defect can crop up after only
a few months of a water condition on the roadbed. This is especially
true for Type-II track where the concrete is being used for
gauge restraint and vertical support. Water also works wonders
for track circuits. One of the benefits of type I (conventional
ballasted track) is drainage. Sadly, most of the Type I track is
being obliterated in the system.
I thought they were doing it the other way around, so the system could have better drainage during heavy raining in the water-logged areas.........guess naught.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Several track foremen I've spoken with report ongoing conversions
of Type I track to Type II(m)
This is also a problem in other cities. Particularly, DC has lots of problems with water in the deep bored tunnels on the Red line between Dupont Circle and approximately Bethesda as well as some of the newer Green line stations in the mid-city section. Ironic that much, much newer systems haven't necessarily done much better when it comes to water damage.
Check out this article at the Washington Post that gives a fairly good overview of the dangers of water damage.
I've noticed that the IND tunnels seem to leak alot more than the IRT tunnels. I think they used more waterproofing when they built the IRT.
I saw a train of R32 cars on the R today.
Also, I haven't seen any on the F in a while.
I've been seeing R32s on the (F) as recently as Friday. Not since Dec 16 have I seen an R32 on the (G)(R) or (V).
:-) Andrew
Saw this R32 on the "R" on January 5, drawn up as follows:
3456-57, 3826-27, 3392-93, 3479-78, 3552-53 (ex-Pitkin yard).
wayne
Had 3851 on Friday afternoon on the F. Also had 3444 last Tuesday.
#3444 Culver Local
I wonder if #3777 (#3444's lovely mate) said "Culver Express" :o)
wayne
IIRC the R-32s no longer include "express" or "local" designations on their side route signs any more. I would imagine their F signs say something like, "F-Queens Blvd-6th Ave.-Culver".
That is exactly what it says. I saw 4 of them signed up for the F (with the right destinations) on board a 179th St bound E.
I saw one on the R today at DeKalb Avenue a little after 3.
R-36: Its nice to see someone using the nickname for the equiptment. Say this much for the Redbirds they kept their name even after the TA tried to call them Silver Foxes. The R-32's and 32A's really were "Brightliners" when they were new. How about the "Silverliners",the R-38's?.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Or, you could just the R-38's 'RuffRyderz'. (especially after riding a 'brightliner')
They're still very bright. But GOH took away their beauty.
You can say that again. No more blue doors or bulkhead roller curtains.
For the long suffering O gauge Subway fans, MTH has done the expected. According to the MTH Website, as of this AM, there will be a 1 month delay in the release of the R-17s in either version. Shipping will be (according to MTH) on 2/15/02.
In the meantime, if you can't wait and if you don't get nose bleeds from the sky-high prices, there are at least 4 Subway sets on sale on E-Bay.
Steve,
I'm foaming at the mouth. Those damned delays!!! I'm ready to go and get a set of 17s for my enjoyment.....
-Stef
Better reserve one with your local dealer. If the R-21s are any indicator, unless the dealer is going to try to gouge like one Long Island Dealer who's asking $500 for the redbirds, the'll sell out very fast
How does this faucet work? It saids push up. Do you have to push it up from the bottom or pull it from the top?
Oh boy! More theories of why Americans can't construct passenger equipment.
Even more why they can't use them.
Are you sure it doesn't say "FLUSH" rather than "Push Up"????
Scroll to the right. the sign is over the sink.
Judging by the looks, you have to lift it up.
I'm guessing you figured it out if you took this photo: "Is this blue stuff..."
:-)
JR
I don't use anything other than AE much anymore but IIRC, you push down.
Perhaps we can add another discussion group called ToiletTalk?
Or, for Britrail fans, WCWeb.
:0)
Loo Chat perhaps?
WC in London town, hmmmm.....
I'll join as long as I can put my 20p in. :p)
wayne
How histories greatest seem to disappear: Thomas Edison, Jonathan Browning, Nicola Tesla, Edwin Armstrong and Thomas Crapper (for those not familiar with modern household engineering, he invented the practical and most compact 'water closet' flushing toilet mechanism still in use today on a more 'down to earth' scale.) CI Peter, Master Redbird Flusher!
Sounds good to me
I have been searching this whole train, looking for INCA GOLD.
You gotta go to the Clive Cussler forum for INCA GOLD.
You didn't get it-- go to www.incagoldonline.com
BTW, Inca Gold is the BLUE STUFF!!!
Okay, I knew I heard the name elsewhere.....seen it in transit industry trade journals!!!!
But there IS a book by the name of "Inca Gold" by Clive Cussler. He's one of my favorite fiction authors.
Perhaps we can add another discussion group called ToiletTalk?
If that name's taken, there are some alternatives:
Potty Palaver
Bocazzo Babblings
Donicker Discussions
You've been thinking about that for a while, haven't you? :-)
Sometimes our best thinking sessions get done on the throne....
WC Fields, of course!
GARDY LOO!
wayne
Rim shot!!
You guys need a hobby!!!
Forgot, we already have one.
And hold meetings in Flushing.
Double rim shot!!
I had to throw that in.:-)
>>> Do you have to push it up from the bottom or pull it from the top? <<<
Didn't you try it when you took the picture? I think they mean what is written. You put your hands under the faucet head an push up on a plunger to have water cascade over your hands. When you move your hands away, the water stops. The liquid soap on the right is so you can lather your hands with soap first, then rinse the soap away. This insures the use of the minimum amount of water for hand washing.
Tom
Is there a map of the intended lines of the second Contract, that were suspended due to the start of WW2? I wold be interested in seeing what this would ahve looked like...
M
I could be wrong about this , but I believe "Contract 2" was finnished well before the war. This was just the extensions of the IRT "Contract 1" lines in Manhattan and into the Bronx. It might have included the first Brooklyn IRT stations too. The Queens IRT had to wait for Contract 3 or 4 or maybe even 5 (by which time I believe they were into "Dual Contracts" era.)
I think you probbably mean the "IND Second Systyem", of which very, very little was ever built. Look under the "IND" section, accessible from the main page of this site or http://www.nycsubway.org/ind There is at least one link to it there.
:-) Andrew
I thought contract 2 was the IRT extention into Brooklyn? Extentions on that was the line continuing down Fulton St and maybe onto Lafayette and the lower level at Nevins St that would have gone to the Manhattan Bridge. Maybe at Atlantic there were extentions planned.
BTW, Was the IRT planning to connect to the 4th Ave line?
There were provisions to tie into the 4th Ave. line from the IRT Brooklyn line, IIRC. When the BRT was awarded operating rights, it became a moot point.
From where on the IRT??
It would have been from Atlantic Avenue according to Joe CUnningham.
Phase II was due to Oct 1929, not WWII.
Is this blue stuff mixed in with water or is it a totally seperate chemical by itself? Personally I always wondered about that but have yet to find a definate answer.
At least you didn't take a picture while the color was green. :) Where is this, anyway?
I'm 99% sure it's diluted with water. It would cost too much to have that much of a chemical by itself. The chemical added is probably like 2000 Flushes.
Where is this, anyway?
Judging by the looks, Its the Acela Express lavatory.
Could be an LIRR C-3
The soap bottle has the new logo.
The soap bottle has the new logo.
I missed that!
Anyway, the bathrooms on the new LIRR bilevels are much better than anything they had previously, although I have seen a couple of "renovated" M-1/3 restrooms lately.
That is NOT the Acela Express. Note the different colors in that photo and http://www.geocities.com/otpamtrakpics/acela15.jpg.
Then what car has that lavatory?
Forget it I know now.
Uh...is this remotely on topic? Not that I have anything against off-topic stuff (I'm an offender, after all), but uh...this is a bizzare thing to find out on a rail transit message board.
:-) Andrew
Judging by the messages, It's On topic (Because it's the Acela express lavatory.
It isn't AE, see my other response.
Well, it's on a train (of course he could have been on a 767 taking the picture - who would know the difference)?
:0)
Too much room in the compartment for it to be a Boening....
Yes. It is a bathroom on board a train.
Judging by the looks, Its water and a chemical of some sort.
It least someone did not ask about the "honey wagon" that are used with LIRR rolling stock since the M-1's started sevice in 1969.
That's what it's called around an airport, too.....a Honey Wagon.
Hint: the Honey Wagon is not what you pick up a date in.
This is a new one. Was the trip that boring that you took a picture of the lavoratory?
This is now your second post involving the Acela toilets. See also: "How does this work?"
Why are you spending so much time in there with a camera?
Although, I must say that this is the prettiest toilet I've seen on a train.
JR
I could toss out a few theories as to WHY he was in the bathroom with a camera, but this is a G rated board, so I won't say ;)
yikes.
>>> I could toss out a few theories as to WHY he was in the bathroom with a camera <<<
Make sure the theories account for failing to discover how the sink faucet works. :-)
Tom
That could be any Amtrak car. The Acela Express bathroom is very different.
This is a bathroom on an amfleet coach. Acela Regional.
That was the ADA stall ;)
My point being it was not the AE as Ry-Trans-it posted numerous times.
I now admit that it's a Amfleet.
As I recall, the Blue stuff they add to the water in plane and train toilets is a dye. In case the storage tanks of excrement and urine ever leak, and you are hangin around outside and see the big lumpy blue puddle, the dye identifies it. If you see the blue dye, its supposed to identify it as waste rather than rain water.
Okay, I used to work for an airline, so I guess I can speak from experience.
We used to put clear water into the crapper tanks on the airplanes...five gallons in each tank. Then we'd go upstairs, drop in a gelatin packet with blue crystals in it, and hit the flush button. It would dissolve the gelatin and turn the contents (i.e. the new water) in the tank to that funny shade of blue.
That crystalline stuff int he gelatine packet stains like it's going out of style. You didn't want to handle it with wet hands....but invariably you'd get it somewhere on you. It was a royal pain in the ass to get off your hands once it stained your skin.
I have no idea of how many operating cars each division has in service on a standard weekday. Seems like B Division has more trackage but higher headways, whereas A Division has less track but more trains.
So, how many cars in each Division? Someone's gotta know ... thanks.
According to Joe Korman's website there are 2953 cars on Division A, with 2558 available for service and 2221 needed for maximum service. There are 3230 cars on Division B, 2937 available for service and 2764 required for maximum service.
Link enclosed:
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/0102/0113martadeath.html
It doesn't say that the homeless man was sleeping on the tracks when he was hit. It just states that he was hit in the tunnel.
I personally like the title of the link to the left:
•Phone books
even harder to
read.
Leave it to Atlanta...
JR
I'm glad it was a weekend, it might have messed up my commute.
[phonebooks]
BellSouth calls the new font "compressed" (ie, smaller). They did it to save trees. I haven't seen the new books yet, so I don't know what they are like.
From what I heard, he was taking a nap on the tracks...
lets setup a hotel on the tracks!
From what I heard, he was taking a nap on the tracks...
"Hmmm, let's see, where can I take a nap in this dark tunnel today? Maybe I should sleep in that emergency doorway? Nooo, someone might come through there. Maybe that nice space between the northbound and southbound trains? Nooo, the wind from the passing trains may blow my hat off. I know, I'll rest my head against this nice, soft rail..."
What was he thinking?!?
And the Darwin award goes to...
JR
Maybe he was sleeping between the north and southbound tracks, but rolled over in his sleep and rolled a bit too far.
"The ground feels cold and metallic, where's my damn blanket...*crunch*"
Maybe they should run ads in Atlanta that state:
DRINKING AND SLEEPING BETWEEN TRACKS JUST DOESN'T MIX.
This past Sat. I spotted A 143 on the new test track on flats north of the Broad Channel Station. I took a pic from the Cross Bay Blvd. side of the track. However I cannot seem to post these pics, can someone help.
If you want you could email it to me for permanent inclusion on the site; or you could just put it in your own web space as described in another thread today.
I saw it at Broad Channel. It can into the station, changed ends and went back north again.
Quick! What's the first thing you see in this picture?
Easy --
Malbone St.
-- Ed Sachs
Heypaul's R-9 cab in the tunnel on the far right????
Am I even close?
Malbone St. wreck (I swear I didn't peek at the other answers first!)
I bet that place has seen a lot of stiffs.
Alan Glick
Wasn't RORSCHACH on Welcome Back Kotter ?
Seriously,
Is that someone with a white shirt in the tunnel ?
Bill "Newkirk"
This is the infamous portal where the Malbone St. wreck took place on Friday, November 1st 1918.
#3 West End Jeff
It's the famous Hippo caves < G >
Mr rt__:^)
Does that portal still exist today and does it serve any line or has it been boarded up?
According to SelkirkTMO that tunnel leads to the secret hideout where I park my Chrysler 300 and plot my next move against evil doers to the BMT system....;-D
Dang! Now that you've *BLABBED* about it, Sea Bits Fred will be on the prowl looking to commandeer that sucker, throw it in reverse and take out the Brighton line so everybody will have to ride that damned number 4 train. Heh. Devil made me do it. :)
Fred can't touch the BMTmobile -- it will self destruct within five seconds upon his grabbing the door handle....;-D
Aha ... you JUST gave away the secret! The stick shift is connected DIRECTLY to a D type group box! Nice touch! :)
Damn, I knew there was a catch to it. Come on Doug, we will have to retool in order to snare that Selkirk guy.
And the moral of the story ... never mess with a guy who has train tools AND a spike puller! Wonder what happened to the Sea bits and why it no longer goes to Stillwell? Nyah-ah-ah says Snidley Selkirk Whiplash! :)
Don't mess with Bullwinkle Fred or you will be in a heap of trouble Snidley.
Oh HORSE ... I KNEW you'd unnerstand. Check out the "subway demo derby" diversion - it was going kinky and I decided to spark the field shunting on it. Heh.
Now you be good, or we propose the Sea Bits line instead of the ones selected by our panel of judges who just passed out in the porcelain facility ... moo.
Wait a minute. Snidely was Dudley Do-Right's arch enemy.
If I could get Sea Beach 53, N man, and West End Jeff to join me, it would be one hell of an idea. Too bad I didn't think of it first.
Sounds like a hell of a place to put Selkirk, IRT Man, don't you think?
In addition to BMTman's post, which describes its true meaning, both portals are in use. The left for regular servie, the right occasionally.
Up until 1957 or 58, when the crossover (part of which is visible in the picture) was installed, Franklin Shuttle trains reversed south of Prospect Park station, crossing over the mainline Brighton tracks in the process.
I can remember watching, and waiting, from the railfan window of a southbound Brighton local while a Franklin shuttle train crossed over.
-- Ed Sachs
How long did such a routine take? Did they use a second motorman, or did the same fellow walk from one end of the train to the other?
The cycle took about four minutes, I would say. The Shuttle train would leave Prospect Park going south just after a Brighton had passed and layover just south of the switches on one of the southbound tracks. Then the motorman (just one) would walk the train--it was just three cars. As soon as the NEXT southbound Brighton passed, the shuttle would return north and cross over to the shuttle northbound track.
At the time that this practice was stopped, it was a nuisance for many people, because it was still common for shuttle riders going south to continue south on the Brighton Line. This meant that riders who used to have an across-the-platform transfer now had to crossover to the other side.
Just in case you don't know Fred, there are a couple sets of Hippos assigned to the Franklin Shuttle that normally use the left portal, however on Christmas day some SubTalkers said they saw a set on the southbound local track that had just used the right portal. Maybe they had too much Christmas spirits ????
Mr rt__:^)
They probably figured they had nothing to fear with those cars.
Those cars WERE there ... as it turns out, a friend in the southern division with the ability to provide a car order had set those aside for a nonrevenue trip through the Malbone tunnel. Unfortunately I was already out of the house when the email came in advising me that it was there for us. Don't want to get anybody in trouble though so let's just say that it was there on unofficial business that day. Only wish I knew it was waiting for US ...
I rode through the right portal last year. A GO was in effect that had the northbound platform at Prospect Park closed (D and Q trains bypassed the station).
I've never ridden a 75' car through that tunnel. Gotta be a tight squeeze.
Not particularly. IINM, it isn't terribly sharp compared to other curves around the system.
Hillary Clinton's new hideout. Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up. So tell me, tell me, is that the Malbone accident of decades ago?
I'm worse off than BMTman ... first thing I saw was ghosts walking out of the tunnel ... or at least four "silhouettes" at the Y. Yow. Gotta change my terbacky. Heh.
Edward Luciano wearing a reflective vest in the tunnel.
--mark
Paul, if you ask me what's the second thing I see in the picture, I'd have to say E. Virgil Conway laying across the southbound track....
sorry...
This morning aboard the Red Line:
(Arriving Medical Center)
"This is Medical Center, doors open left side. This train will be going out of service at Grosvenor. All customers must leave the train. Passengers wishing to continue to Shady Grove must exit the train and wait for the train destination sign 'Shady Grove'."
(The doors open)
"Red line to Grosvenor, last stop."
(Doors close, train begins to leave station)
"Next station, Grosvenor. This train will be going out of service at Grosvenor Station. (long pause) All customers must leave the train. Customers are reminded to check for all personal belongings when leaving the train."
(We finally enjoy some silence, until the train passes under the bridge over the tracks from the mezzanine to the bus bays)
"This is Grosvenor, doors open left side. (T/O turns off interior lights, this is an outdoor station but the lack of lights is quite an annoyance) This train is now out of service. All customers must leave the train. Customers are reminded to check for all personal belongings when leaving the train. Customers wishing to continue to Shady Grove must exit the train and wait for the train destination sign 'Shady Grove'."
(Doors open, T/O now starts flashing lights on and off)
"This train is out of service. All customers must leave the train at this time. Thank you."
Now, how many times must one announce the train is going out of service? The first announcements is just outright confusing. We aren't at the last station, why tell us the train is going out of service? Even I get confused by this since I know some trains skip stations and do other things in order to maintain their schedules, especially towards the end of the run. Then, once we leave Medical Center, please don't tell us the same message 3 times. Once is enough. Hardly anyone is on the train anyway so it isn't like they can't hear. Lastly, don't turn the lights off. I am not nocturnal, if I choose to walk the length of the car because I want to be closer to the exit since my bus is going to leave in about 4 minutes, I would like some light to guide me by. There isn't much natural light at 7:30 AM.
Anyone wish to comment on the confusing and redundant announcements this T/O makes every time I catch her train?
One time when I was on the Orange Line to Vienna a few years ago, we were entering the station and it was dark out. The Operator announced about 20 times in rapid fire that the train was out of service and flashed the interior lights on and off enough times to make me think I was on Club Metro or something. A few people on my car yelled out, We know ***hole!" I just wanted to go home.
I once heard a T/O on the Red Line get to Shady Grove and it was going to the yard and he announced this:
"Out of service, Out of service, Out of service, Out of service, Out of service, OUT OF SERVICE! This train is out of service! Thank you!"
That sounds exactly like the guy on the Orange Line. Its possible they rotate lines. This was back in '97 that I had the light show at Vienna.
This is why WMATA sucks. Hell, during the #4 line's terminating at Atlantic, the T/O didn't say anything until we got to Atlantic (where it is hard to exchange for a local that continues to New Lots). How's that for non-redundance?
Everytime during midday when the 4 terminated at Atlantic, they always said something at Nevins. I don't think they waited until Atlantic. They would usually want the passengers to have the easier transfer so they get less complaints.
The TA never bothered posting this GO on the web site, either (this time around). It's easy enough to figure out from experience (if the 1 terminates at Utica, the 4 can't terminate there also), but explicit mention would be nice.
It's pretty necessary for the conductor to repeatedly, and loudly, announce the train is out of service, especially at last stops where everyone must discharge (Continental, 179th, Smith-9th, Bowling Green, 205th, Utica, Brooklyn Bridge, Euclid, Pacific). There's always the chance someone's sleeping.
The conductor on an outbound PM weekday Flushing train at Queensboro Plaza will repeat "express" up to six times. That still doesn't stop people both on the platform and the train from asking if this is a local. I say if they don't listen to the same announcement repeated that many times, they deserve to miss their stop.
The flashing lights are a signal to the deaf that the train is out of service. I remember reading a Bob Levy column in the Washington Post. A deaf person rode to into the yard, through no fault of their own.
Also, the repetitious announcements are also for the benefit for people on the platform. Washington cars have loud speakers on the outside of the car. (I don't think it's every car.)
Michael
Oh, I definitely understand the flashing of the lights. I think its a great idea. However, flashing them to mimic a strobe light was a little excessive, especially since we weren't in the station yet and people were trying to gather their things. Overall, the metro operators are very good. One even held the door for a few seconds extra to let my mother, who uses a cane get off the escalator at White Flint and lumber on to his train after he'd been in there and ready to roll. I wasn't with her, but that kind of stuff is nice to hear.
You flash the lights a few times after making good annnouncements. Don't turn them off and then flash them, especially after that awful announcement routine. Do you want people to hate taking your train?
I remember once, probably at least 10 years ago, there was a big delay for one reason or another during the PM rush hour at Penn Station. The LIRR was announcing "Due to an Amtrak train stuck in the tunnel, all LIRR trains are subject to delays - please listen for announcements". So I went up to the Amtrak level and their announcement was something like "Due to heavy congestion with LIRR trains, all Amtrak trains are experiencing delays"!
WMATAGMOAGH, do you remember when you rode MARTA and approching northbound to Lindbergh Center on the N/S? Everytime, the annoucements go like this:
Ladies and gentlemen, this is a Doraville train. This train will be stopping at Lenox, Brookhaven, Chamblee and Doraville. If you are going to Buckhead, Medical Center, Dunwoody, Sandy Springs and North Springs, please get off at Lindbergh Center and wait for the next train marked North Springs. I repeat, this train will be stopping at Lenox, Brookhaven, Chamblee and Doraville. This is a Doraville train. Next stop Lindbergh.
Then, at the station:
This is a Dorvaille train, next stop Lenox.
And the sad part is, even with the nice and visible destination signs, some people still ask what train this is. Mainly the occansional riders, the everyday riders know. Going southbound, it's a lot more simple:
Next stop Lindbergh Center, transfer on the opposite platfrom for your North Springs train. Lindbergh Center is next
On the E/W, they do it right:
This is your two car Bankhead train, transfer here for service to HE Holmes
They weren't redundant announcements. I think it is perfectly to give a detailed announcement before arriving and then a brief reminder at the station. She repeated the same thing 4 times and she did it even before we left the station before the last one.
After all those redundant announcements,I'll bet there was still one person who got up and asked "Is this the last stop"?lol
That's for all the people who don't listen. He was probably thinking ahead :D
Just about everyone who reverse commutes at that time who is going past Grosvenor either
a. waits for a Shady Grove train
b. knows the train is going out of service
If it was some weekend, I could see some logic in the redundancy. Not at 7:30 AM on a weekday morning.
I just have one question:
On the broadway local, just south of Whitehall, there are two trackways that branch-off south just before the Nassau st. tunnel merge (you can see them on the left side {while facing forward} on a southbound N or R train). Does anybody know what that was supposed to be (considering that what would have been the 'northbound trackway' crosses the N/R southbound at grade level, and it's headed for the tip of southern manhattan, I'm betting it's a mistake.)
Does someone want to write a FAQ on this for the site? It gets asked just about every other week. Thanks.
Sorry. I haven't been here in months.
Anyways, could you answer the question?
They're apparently just headings for a different tunnel alignment to Brooklyn. Nothing as fancy as Staten Island-bound tunnels. Why they changed their minds? Dunno.
That's what I thought it would be. Thanks.
draft FAQ please correct/amplify
Bellmouths, and future routings
Most transit systems in the US were designed to serve more areas than they do at present. Thus when originally laid out, bellmouths and other structural provisions for future routes and stations were built so as not to have to rebuild those segments when the newe routes were finally built. This practice was not limited to New York, although more examples exist here than in all of the other cities in the US.
New York
BMT
Just south of Whitehall St, there are 'portals' for a possible alternate tunnel to Brooklyn. Contrary to some rumors, this was not a provision for a route to Staten Island.
South of 59th Street on the Fourth Avenue Subway, there are extra bridges over the Bay Ridge segment of the ex PRR. These were for a possible route to Staten Island.
North of 57th St in Manhattan. At one time, before the IND, there were vague plans to extend the BMT tunnel into Central Park to the NW to run under CPW. Those stubs were later reconstructed to become the line east through the Park and the 60th Street tube to Queens
IND As the most optimisticly envisioned system, there are many examples of 'provisions' for extensions, branches etc. See the Second System page for a more comprehensive account of the plans. There are provisions for a Worth Street limk across lower Manhattan from the area of the original 'Hudson Terminal'' station.
Moving east there are bellmouths and track ramps in the Chrystie Street complex for the fabled Second Avenue Subway.
Traveling Queensbound from 57th Street & Sixth Ave there are bellmouths for connections to the Second Ave line.
Proceeding toward Queens there are bellmouths for the fabled 'super express' via Sunnyside and some LIRR ROW.
Along the Queens Boulevard Line there are ramps and bellmouths for the 'Roosevelt' Line See Roosevelt Station page for pictures.
PATH
At the East/North end of the Ninth Street station on the 33rd Street Line there is the bellmouth for a potential extension variously described as headed toward Astor Place and/or Grand Central
Terry Kennedy has maps showing a potential branch to the then operational CRR of NJ Jersey City Station
Chicago
As originally built the State Street tunnels included provisions for continuing south of Roosevelt Road rather than using the ramp up to what is now the Green Line (one time South Side Rapid Transit). Those provisions were utilised toconnect the State St line to the Dan Ryan median when the Red Line changed routes. In the Dearborn Subway just west of the Clark/Lake Station there are bellmouths for perhaps the Lake Street route.
Where the Dearborn Tunnel emerges into the Congress(Eisenhower) median there are four portals as if more tracks were ecpected. AFAIK these portals dead end almost immediately as a stillborn project.
Cleveland
When the Cleveland Terminal / Public Square project was begun in the 1920's, the layout of the track level included extra portals and space for several peojected transit/trolley lines. When the Cleveland Rapid (now the Red Line) was constructed in the mid 1950/s they used the existing Shaker Heights alignment(Green, Blue Lines). There are still vestiges of these provisions although future lines are unlikely.
While not strictly a 'bellmouth' the Green Line in Cleveland has a graded but never tracked potential extension of over a mile.
Philadelphia
The Broad Street Sunway conceived and built in the era of the IND shared some of the optimism. While used today as relay tracks there were provisions for a Roosevelt Boulevard branch--which is now again being studied. In connection with this there is a rumored station shell in the basement of a Sears store aslong Roosevelt.
Thanks, I'll be adding to the FAQ..
Excellent work, sir.
I curious about the Chicago Congress "portals." Would these be alternate south/west exits from the Dearborn St. Subway? If so, where might you (or others here) speculate that these could have gone and where else might the Congress line have been alternately routed? Any theories?
South of 59th Street on the Fourth Avenue Subway, there are extra bridges over the Bay Ridge segment of the ex PRR. These were for a possible route to Staten Island.
The whole 4th Ave line to 95th Street was built with provisions to become a 4-track line. The local tracks swinging outward and then back inward near 59th Street were provisions for a Staten Island connection. Supposedly, 86th St was meant to be the next express stop and there are bricked-over cutouts in today's Manhattan-bound wall that would lead to a second set of tracks. This second set would have eben the Manhattan-bound tracks; the current tracks would be the Bay Ridge-bound tracks.
--Mark
Can someone out please tell me how to post pics on this site, to share with the rest of Subtalk?
Like this (img src="URL of your pic")
replace () with <> and it should work.
You ca also adjust the height and width like so (img src="URL" height="100" width="100") will give you a pic of 100x100.
You can also create a hyperpic, that is a picture that doubles up as a hyperlink. Its done like this:
(a href="url")(img src="URL") replace () with <>
This page has some great info
OOPS..........here is the right page
I didn't think the other link was incorrect :)
--Mark
First, you need to put them on the internet. If you don't have free web hosting by your internet service provider, go to www.geocities.com and sign up for an account. The details should tell you how to upload pictures.
When you have a link to the picture, it might be something like
http://geocities.com/myname/blah.jpg
to put it in a post, add the following line:
[img src=http://geocities.com/myname/blah.jpg]
but replace the square brackets with angled ones (the ones above the comma and period keys)
Good luck.
Can't remote load from Geocities, the pics won't appear here.
You can, but it takes a little trick....
rename the file from "picture.jpg" to "picture.jpg.x"
Example:
I suppose I should've mentioned this in my earlier post
Does that work with other free web site companies like Angelfire or Lycos?
I don't know, but it probably could. Geocities is the only one I've tried it with so far.
It didn't work with my angelfire account. As you see I got the angelfire logo instead of an R17 when I tried to post "http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford/R17.jpg.x"
>>> got the angelfire logo instead of an R17 when I tried to post "http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford/R17.jpg.x" <<<
But when I dropped the final ".x" from the URL address, the picture of what appears to be the future heir near the open door of an R-17 loaded immediately without any annoying banner advertizing.
Tom
try sony station ...
lol!
One thing I would like to add to the others' comments is to make sure that the pictures are of a reasonable size so that they don't take too long for those with dial-up modems to load and also that they fit reasonably on the screen. I find that 800x600 pictures saved in a medium JPEG quality end up being about right.
I used to know how to do it somehow it stays on for a while then goes away !! Y i do not know ...lol!!
lets see if this works !
lets see if this works ......hmmmmmm?
LOL??
Nope. Try again.
webshots on exite .... dont use em they R a bummer !!!
Use the "preview" button to test our your links please!
--Mark
yes you are right .. & i agree with you 100%...
@ however the WEBSHOTS ( exite ) was down & or doing some repairs so my photos go in and out ... i think they are back on line..yahoo photos dont seem to last long however...
south pasadena gold line light rail construction project
MAYBE MY PHOTO BANK IS FIXED NOW
lol !!!
Here's the exact error messsage I just got:
Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /storage/1/v0/3/14/27/27731427fMfgWraxrv_ph.jpg on this server.
Apache/1.3.14 Server at community6.webshots.com Port 80
Comments?
!!!
damn !! what happened to my pic ??
it worked when i checked it last !!
i did not have this problem before .....
!!!!!!!!..........??
i guess i will have to go back to my sony site
maybe this will hold ...
it did hold .. from now on my sony site ...
Good. We all enjoy your excellent shots!!!
thanz..& whatever U do do not upload from exite "webshots"
i did try loading from yahoo & it punked out ....lol!!
make sure you got your pictures loaded on a website
Post EXACTLY like this:
<img src="http://urlgoeshere">
I want to know what you think:
Assume for a moment that LIRR's new stop at Grand Central's new lowest level is ready.
If LIRR runs the following service:
Bellerose - Queens Village - Hollis - Jamaica - Kew Gardens - Forest Hills ----> Express via 63rd Street tube to Grand Central.
and runs this service every 15 minutes from 6:00AM to 8:30AM; and from 4:00PM-6:30PM
would that basically eliminate the need for a Queens Blvd bypass track super-express?
Yes, but that is non likely to be the service pattern. Few Hempstead trains run to NYP now.
Oh, I wasn't implying this would be a Hempstead train. I was proposing a train run by LIRR focused on Queens commuters who are limited to the Queens Bvd IND service. This train would not have to be a Hempstead train (ie LIRR could designate other terminations for the train).
I don't see them adding any trains to the mainline. The amount of Hunterspoint trains and some NYP trains would be diverted to 63rd.
That's an excellent point. I take it not many people getting off at Hunter's Point are NOT taking a ferry?
I should write MTA and ask if the Hunters Point Av service would be cancelled.
I'd hate to see a line abandoned. I hope that's not what it means.
From what I've heard, East Side Access would mean abandoning the Hunterspoint and LIC stations. That would be sad, but I could see how they would be seen as unnecessary.
:-( Andrew
Meaning all that track would be abandoned, too.
>> Meaning all that track would be abandoned, too. <<
Some of it could be useful for freight service.
The LIRR just spent alot of money upgrading the LIC Yard so I'm not sure they will be giving that yard up. Besides LIC and Hunterpoint is diesel territory while the ESA is electric. The ESA basically frees up track space in Penn. since those train will go to GCT. The LIRR would still use LIC to store its trains, so I can't see them getting rid of the yard or tracks.
Keep in mind that since the Rononkoma electrification, the LIRR does NOTHING to promote Hunterspoint (none of them take the ferry). Even the platforms concessions are gone which could be paying rent. The platform is dangerous with a gap that is too wide and 3rd rail on the same side. The LIRR will tell you that the mainline is run to capacity. That's BS. The Hunterspoint and several NY expresses run wrong main on the express track in the morning. They can definitely run more of them. They also never replaced the 5:17 pm from Hunterspoint when the 5:10 NYP to Babylon was extended to Speonk. It should be a local to Babylon. There was a net loss of one train between Hunterspoint and Babylon when the dual-mode was implemented.
I find it quite ironic and unacceptable that E.S.A. is not worth a dime to be spent at Hunterspoint Avenue but $11 Billion is OK for 63rd Street to the Castle/Mine under GCT.
It sounds like a good idea, but wouldn't you need a separate fare control area or a separate tiketing system (I assume you'd have to charge just a regular subway fare), to keep it apart from LIRR commuter service? Perhaps if you just make those stations (Queens Village, Hollis, Kew Gardens and Forest Hills) only accessible by this new local service, and somehow allowed Jamaica and Woodside to be serviced by both, it might work.
While we're at it, might as well also re-establish the old LIRR stations at Bellaire, Westbridge (where the LIRR crosses Jamaica Ave), Rego Park and Grand St. (now Ave.)
Thank you for mentioning those stations.
What if the LIRR didn't use separate fare control? What if they simply charged the same appropriate zone-based fares or asked for the usual passes? Would people use it?
There would probably be some demand, but not enough to warrant service every 10 minutes. One of the problems with the "super express" to Grand Central is that it only goes to one place -- Grand Central. The subway allows you to go to any number of places along the way -- hence the short headways.
There are already a few effectively Queens-only trains on the LIRR. The Port Washington branch has some locals (and expresses) that originate at Great Neck and Little Neck. I don't know about ridership on those. There's also a morning local that starts in Valley Stream and makes all stops from Rosedale to Woodside and then Penn Station. Ridership east of Jamaica generally fills most of the rear 8 cars, Kew Gardens and Forest Hills fill up the front 4 and at Penn you have a pretty full 12 car train with no standees.
CG
Agreed.
I would really like to see ESA finished, so the morning Port Washington exresses really act that way, instead of coming to a screeching halt in front of the East River waiting to be cleared into the maxed out tunnels...
It always seems to me that the Port Washington trains get first preference to enter the tunnel. I don't know how many times I've been on a train that's sat just outside the tunnel for several minumtes just to see a PW train go whizzing by!
That's funny. I always had the opposite experience. Esp. on the morning PW express runs!
Oh well...
And build an additonal Manhattan station at 59th to connect with the N,R,W,4,5,6 (just for this special Queens service).
"And build an additonal Manhattan station at 59th to connect with the N,R,W,4,5,6 (just for this special Queens service). "
Excellent. So not only are you offering access to the East side (though passengers would get that anyway at Grand Central), you are also offering an easy transfer to a west side line, much easier than having to use the Times Square Shuttle or the 7, and then having to transfer a third time.
Issues and Questions:
If the station were planned and built early: Would you then have to build that section of the LIRR line by "cut and cover?"
The LIRR tunnel is under 63rd Street, though, and need to turn south under Park Avenue. Would a reasonable station placement be at Park Avenue/59th, with a pedestrial tunnel to the 59th Street station?
How would you build this station, since the LIRR trains would be travelling underneath Metro-North trains at that point? Would you "slant" the passenger station and concourse easterly so as not to disturb the Metro-North tracks? Or would you create side platforms at the Metro-North level(s) as well? I don't remember at what street Metro-North expands from one level/4 tracks to two levels prior to entering Grand Central.
Don't know the MN track layout or the engineering issues, but you'd think you could build platforms & concourses slighlty to the east of MNRR and thus closer to Lex Ave to facilitate the subway transfer.
BTW, Ron, your idea for a special Queens service (I assume in addition to normal LIRR services into GCT) is a superb idea. I hope you use your contacts to advance this concept.
I plan to. I wonder how far MTA engineering plans have gone on ESA. I have to re-read the EIS (which is in my attic in three volumes).
Or how about a 63 St / 2nd Av Station?
Difficult to accomplish, as that's where turns from 63rd to 2nd Av are.
Arti
Difficult to accomplish, as that's where turns from 63rd to 2nd Av are.
Should be just possible.
As I understand it, the shape of the junction will be 2nd Av line under 63rd St line (at right angles). Switches will connect as follows: 63rd (West) - 2nd Av (North), 63rd (East) - 2nd Av (South).
Now, the height between levels has to be about 12 foot minimum. Subway trains can manage a grade of 1 in 50 if you are lucky. This means that the ramps must be at least 600 feet long. This means that the shortest distance from the point where the 63rd St line goes over the 2nd Av line must be 300 feet in each direction.
Everyone knows that a subway train can be a maximum of 600 feet long. By my calculations, a subway train should fit between the switches at either end of the junction and therefore theoretically a two level + shaped station is possible.
You are correct about the switch junctions. The bellmouths are, in fact, oriented to connect west-north and south-east.
And build an additonal Manhattan station at 59th
Hmmm. Except remember that the LIRR tracks will be to the WEST of the MN tracks, and you'll already have made the southward turn toward downtown by 59th Street. Not sure how you'll connect from the west side of Park Avenue over to the Lex/59th complex ....
To make this work you would have to make it "subway-like." You're part-way there with the 15 minute regular headways. But you'd need the extra stations mentioned in another post, some free transfers (perhaps via MetroCard) at Jamaica, Woodside, GCT, maybe elsewhere, and the same fare as subway. Also, you'd give it a Letter designation like a subway line and treat it as such on the Map. It would be a subway/commuter-rail hybrid, like the RER expresses in Paris.
Interesting idea...
Dead cool actually! Now, if this were the Paris RER, the next step would be to connect the services from either side of the city. Any physical or technical (rather than political) reason why the NJT lines out of Penn cannot be taken over by the LIRR?
NJ Transit operates exclusively either by overhead catenary (11,000 volt 25 Hz power if I recall correctly)or on diesel power for non-electrified lines. LIRR operates by 750V third rail (or diesel). LIRR MUs cannot operate in NJ Transit territory.
Bloody typical. Presumably an LIRR diesel would fit though?
Yes, so long as locomotive and coach dimensions are compatible (and I am confident the loco dimensions are). Bilevel coaches? Not sure.
Because of the all the fare- and transfer-related issues raised, I don't think this type of service would rightly be LIRR. However, what I think IS needed for whatever serves as a Queens superexpress and what the LIRR could offer is more speed than standard NYCT subway - newer rapid transit systems like BART and DC metro can approach 70 or 80 mph, which could really make a difference for a longer-distance superexpress run.
The point is, whether NYCT or LIRR officially run the service, it will have to be somewhat distinct to be effective...differing from standard subway service due to the speeds and station spacing and different from standard commuter rail service due to the headways, fare control, transfer ability, and flexibility of multiple destinations. Maybe there could be new tunnels/track for the stations at the eastern side in Queens that would then utilize the LIRR track for the actual express part of the trip (before 63rd St. tunnel), cutting down on the overall cost of the project. For example, the new service could use existing subway trackage east of 71/Continental and then leave the IND ROW to join LIRR all the way in to 63rd St. tunnels.
We are assuming here that a new LIRR tunnel is available - 63rd Street, and its new connector tunnels under Sunnyside Yard. That all by itself will improve headways and take certain trains in Queens "out of the way" of existing services.
As to using the Queens Blvd subway tracks east of Continental, why do you think that is necessary?
I don't think it is necessary. I just thought that faster bypass service was desired for those existing subway stations to the east of 71/Continental. That seems to be where the push for the superexpress is coming from, not from existing LIRR commuters (right?) Also, it could cut down on costs (and perhaps take advantage of some excess track capacity out that way). Of course, if the LIRR plan could overcome those obstacles that have already been mentioned, then it wouldn't be needed. Maybe with this sort of plan if the superexpress service did rejoin the QB line there then any savings could be applied to extending subway service to eastern Queens, either along Hillside or from Parsons/Archer (as has been planned in the past). This might have more of an overall effect than just a rush-hour oriented service.
Here's another thought, though - in keeping with your LIRR-based plan, if the ESA is completed (and perhaps even some connection to Lower Manhattan as is currently being discussed for the new WTC transit hub) then enough space could be cleared at Penn to run half of this new Queens-only service there and provide both East and West side terminals, making the extra transfers from GCT to West side unnecessary. That might make this plan even more attractive to commuters.
Interesting. So you don't believe current Queens Blvd. riders would actually switch to LIRR service with this kind of proposal?
Well, I think it really depends on the fare method used, the headways (not just during the main rush hours either), and the ease of reaching their Manhattan destinations (both terminals and transfers to subway). That is why the idea of potentially running the service to Penn, GCT, and maybe even Lower Manhattan would seem to have much more appeal. Does the LIRR have the track capacity along the line and at stations (particularly Jamaica) to support services on short headways of like 10 minutes or so and for frequent service to these multiple terminals?
LIRR doesn't have the line capacity now, but if East Side Access diverts enough trains to Grand Central, then that will obviously reduce the "waiting list" of trains wanting to enter the tunnels to Penn Station. So a service going to Penn would be possible too...
This morning around 9:30am I just missed a 7 express in Flushing. I knew there was a GO that had all Flushing bound trains run express from Woodside to Flushing, but that wasn't supposed to start until 10am. So my NYC bound train should run express right?
Well we are held just shy of 9:36am as dispatch informs our crew that we will run local from Flushing to Woodside, due to construction.
On our way west I saw one E/B local train, all the Flushing bound trains started running express and the E/B local platforms were full of people waiting, either unaware of the GO or thinking it wasn't to start until 10. Our train got jam packed at 74th where I bailed for the IND. Why do they start early? I mean I can understand 5 or 10 minutes early but this was 20 minutes. While it didn't delay me to much I'm sure there were lots of confused pax at E/B platforms from Woodside to Willets.
Just missed an F which looked pretty empty at Roosevelt, I let a packed R32 E go by after that, which was followed by an empty R46 E which I got on. Slow around Qplaza, where I got an R across the platform. The R still gets some pretty good speed in 60th street tube.
At 42nd street I got a diamond Q, good RF window ride to Dekalb.
Took an N from there to 8th, another Slant R40. Later when I was going back from 8th ave around 1pm to NYC there was an empty R32 on the Manhattan bound platform, someone announced there was a problem and that we'd have to take CI bound N to 62nd/NUA and get the W to Manhattan. So I did that, the W was well, slow. At least the bridge wasn't too bad.
Going back in the afternoon to Queens I took a 7 express from GCT around 3:30pm.
I heard alot of ruckus on the motormans radio. On the express track we passed a stuck E/B local about 2 cars off the platform at 74th street. No pax were on board. I heard over the radio that "something had to be cleaned up" and police were looking at the train. All E/B trains had to run express after Woodside to bypass the problem.
Perhaps the TA should put on their posters 9:30 instead of 10:00. The 10 AM starting time of the GO means that by 10AM all trains must be off the track, the track secured by putting wood blocks into the switch points, the tower machine at 111 St. having locking devices on all levers leading into the affected track, power turned off and a few other incidental chores. The 10:00 time means this is the time the trackworkers and their equipment can enter the out of service area, the track is closed earlier to make it ready for the 10:00 start of work.
That is what the TA should've done, since the GO's should start when the track starts getting ready to be closed.
Transit fans might be interested in checking out a notice on http://www.pcac.org of the passing of Dr. Stephen Dobrow. It is sad news. In attending meetings of the NYC Transit Riders Council, I saw him in action, pushing projects for the riders' benefit. He knew what he was talking about. He is also known as one of the principals of the Committee for Better Transit. I praise him for his many years of voluntary work. He was only 58. Many thanks to the NYD ERA for calling my attention to this loss. The PCAC has lost several good people in the past year. Joe McMahon
He was a friend of mine from way back when. He had many good ideas which he developed and publicized through his Committee for Better Transport. He didn't get the showy publicity of some other advocates, but he was always in there plugging.
It's sad to add his name to the list of fans who passed away before their times, such as Roger Arcara and Harry Anderson.
Hello All, I was wondering what will the new WTC look like? Are they definately going to rebuild to the 75 stories I heard on the news the other night? They showed a picture of it although I did not see it? Will they look the same? DOes anyone have a pic of it that they can scan? Is it true that the new AOL-Time Warner building is supposed 2 be the tallest buildings in NYC. I heard about it on CNN. I was by the construction site and saw drawing but it did not look like the 80 some floors that cnn mentioned. Is that correct? Does anyone have better drawing of what that will look like? I appreciate any help people can provide. I think the WTC should be built bigger so that the whole world can remember what terrible thing has happened on 9-11-01. What do people think?
John
Welcome to the board (I know you just got your handle)... as a general rule of thumb if you feel you need to put "off topic" in the subject-- maybe it's not appropriate for posting. That being said there's several other WTC-related threads going on right now, why not keep the discussion going there instead of starting a new thread.
artists rendering of a smaller wtc
artists rendering of a smaller wtc
That artist seems to have forgotten about the World Financial Center and Battery Park City.
"artists rendering of a smaller wtc "
"That artist seems to have forgotten about the World Financial Center and Battery Park City"
It comes complete with an entirely smaller island. And we all get to ride to work in HO scale subways.
CAN NYC GET ANY SMALLER???
That's the ugliest thing I've ever seen. At least the old Trade Center had height and prominence to offset its horrific blandness.
hey i never said it was good.
I never said that you said you did.
I know the 12x4 ones are $8, but how much do the 24x8 ones cost?
>>> I know the 12x4 ones are $8, but how much do the 24x8 ones cost? <<<
What the hell is this post about??? If this is in response to an ongoing thread it should be in that thread. If it is an arithmetic problem, the answer should be $32.00.
Tom
Check with the sign shop you are dealing with. 48 square inches (12x4) is $8.00 (16 cents a square inch). 192 square inches ((24x8)x.16) should be about $32.00.
BUT check with the shop is doing your work. Better yet, do it yourself on your PC and print it with a color printer.
well doesnt the mta sell them at a fixed price?
No. The MTA only sells the small ones which were created especially for sale at the Transit Museum.
The larger ones may be extra signs from the sign shop (in which case the sale is illegal as the items are still TA property) or ones removed as part of a rehab project (in which case ownership and legal sale of the sign is up to debate).
Here's the link.
As I write this, the high bid is $355 and the reserve, which I suspect is a lot more than that, has not yet been met.
Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with the seller at all. - I just posted this for informational purposes. I already own the complete 7 volume set, although I did put in a bid, just they had a very low reserve price and.
I don't have any idea what the set is worth but with almost 9 days to go, it seems that I'm already priced out of the market. I guess I'll have to wait until they make the books into a movie.
I could have gotten a complete set about a year ago--straight sale--for $750, but passed it up. Now I bet this will go higher. A complete set hasn't broken $1000 yet (I think), but let's see.
For anyone who likes to keep tabs on this stuff:
In Ocean's 11, there is one scene in Chicago that starts on board a CTA train. It pulls into the Library station on the clockwise track (purple and orange side) at which point the character alights from the train. The train is signed for the loop although I think it was a brown line sign. I couldn't see car numbers. There is also one point where the character is under the el.
For anyone wishing to see this movie, I do reccomend it.
Sorry for no direct link on this, but I was perusing e-bay motors and came across this thing.......... WOT DA HELL !!!!!!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=600407279
Bill "Newkirk"
It is kind of cute. One of the more interesting looking tourist "trolleys" built on motor chasis.
I'd consider it, but parallel parking it is a pain in the butt ;-)
> I'd consider it, but parallel parking it is a pain in the butt ;-)
Didn't it say in the description that the rear wheels steer too? That would make it easier! :-)
It almost looks like it was based on a Type 5. The current bid price at 9:43 AM 1/15 was $610, but shipping it anywhere would be a $$$ pain. The description says it does not run.
shipping it anywhere would be a $$$ pain. The description says it does not run.
No problem! I'll just tow it with my replica steam engine. ;-)
Scary as it seems, it looks like this is a real old trolley body mounted on a modified VW bus chassis. Don't know without asking though, and since I'm not in the market...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone know what will become of these swubway items?
Path train under WTC(I don't know the car numbers)
Cortland Street(N,R)
WTC(E)
Q,Diamond Q,W,B,D
9 service
Astoria line express tracks
Culver express tracks
And finally
Jerome Avenue express tracks.
Does anyone know what will become of these swubway items?
Path train under WTC(I don't know the car numbers)
Three of the cars are crushed and probably will be removed as debris to the Fresh Kills landfill. Four of the cars are essentially undamaged and most likely will be removed and returned to service in the future.
Cortland Street(N,R)
I would imagine that it will reopen once the area above it is no longer located in the restricted-access zone. That probably won't happen until the debris-removal process is finished.
WTC(E)
It probably will reopen in the fairly near future, as there are exits into free-access areas.
I kind of hope they keep at least one of the damaged PATH cars around somewhere, to show people in the future how bad the damage was seven levels below ground as a result of the collapse. If some sort of indoor museum display is built along with any other WTC memorial, it would certainly fit in there. However, depending on how the Port Authority wants to do the rebuild, the cars may be cut up on site and hauled off rather than trying to lift them out with a crane or waiting until the tubes to New Jersey are unplugged and moving them out that way.
No one seems to know what's going on with the WTC E station.
I took a look there last weekend from the A/C platform. The E trains only go 90% of the way into the station to turn around. What I can see of the E platform looks fine. I asked a worker there if there was damage to the station and he said yes, but didn't say what.
The pictures posted on this web site show debris but not damage.
There definitely are plenty of exits from the platform to areas not fenced off to pedestrians any more.
I can't see them reopening for quite some time. The exits available cannot handle the passenger load.
If they reopened the station you would have a large number of people exiting thru 2 staircases at the WTC end. The one to the left of the turnstiles which is on Church next to the St. Paul's Church Cemetary, and the one to the right which is next to the Post Office. These are not large stairways. The exit on the north end of the platform is at the Chambers St station and that is also a small staircase.
People might as well change at Canal for the A or C and get off at Chambers or Broadway-Nassau.
You're assuming that the same amount of people who used the E to WTC before 9/11 would still be using it today if service were restored. If you ever get a chance to go thru the Chambers St station during the middle of the rush hour, you'll notice that the destruction of the WTC and the removal of a link to the PATH here has probably cut usage of this station by about two-thirds. I think existing exits could handle the significantly reduced passanger load.
The station should be reopened ASAP, specifically for the connection to the 1/2. Until then, this is yet another instance of a near miss, where passengers trying to make a connection have to transfer to an intermediate line for one stop.
Remember that far fewer passengers will be exiting there than prior to 9/11. Busier stations have fewer exits. Exiting will not be a problem.
There's also the issue of E's at Canal delaying following C's. If the E doesn't have to be thoroughly cleansed of passengers at Canal, the C can continue through unimpeded.
I think this is a matter which NYCT has no control over. It is entirely a police matter, the TA is merely waiting for the OK to restore passenger service.
Do you know this to be true, or is this a guess?
I think he may be right because it is still considered a crime scene.
I've heard lots of speculation about what's keeping the E WTC station closed. Much of the speculation is very plausible, but it's still speculation nevertheless.
What I haven't heard is a single fact, other than that the E trains only go 90% into the station to turn around.
I wouldn't wait until the last moment to get on a train to go one stop further than my original one would! I'd get on the second train as soon as possible and hopefully beat everyone to it. A at 42 St perhaps (the C is upstairs at 50th)?
The point isn't where you transfer -- it's that you have to transfer at all (or not board the E and wait for an A/C instead).
In a way, waiting until the last moment to transfer does make some sense. If service, for whatever reason, is interrupted while you're waiting for the transfer, you have a shorter walk. Or perhaps W4 would be the best place to wait, since if, (again) for whatever reason all downtown service is diverted, you'd be able to go to Jay and backtrack on an A/C. Of course, this isn't terribly likely.
But if I were on an E train from Queens, I'd transfer at 42 -- unless I had a feeling that we were being held at 50 to let a C sneak in ahead of us, in which case I might run upstairs.
Of course, the point is moot come Monday.
Unless I am mistaken the Astoria Express Tracks are used Peak Direction Express for the W? Please correct me if I am mistaken?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I recall reading posts earlier that the Astoria express service is to be discontinued. Or am I wrong?
To the other questions:
Jerome express tracks - They're used mainly for station bypassing due to GOs on the #4 line. In and around the 149th Street area they're used for either storage or the 138th Street bypass during rush hours.
Culver express tracks - Should be used for peak direction express service on the F line, but the logistics behing pulling it off may be difficult due to the track alignment around Church Av., the choice between the V and the G as a local (possibly a further G cutback to Beford-Nostrand with shuttles to Hoyt-Schmerhorn, which would come back to haunt the MTA if they even brought it up), and the lack of cars.
#9 service - Probably will be back as soon as the Greenwich St. tunnel is rebuilt around the WTC area. Either good or bad depending on who you ask in the Morningside-Harlem-Washington Heights stretches.
Q (both of them), W, B, and D - if and when the DOT gets through rehabbing the Manny B., there will be definite changes, although what changes are subject to speculation. Best guess is that the Q express stays with the service to Bway, and the D local to 6th Av; B returns to Brooklyn. W is up in the air.
Culver express tracks - Should be used for peak direction express service on the F line, but the logistics behing pulling it off may be difficult due to the track alignment around Church Av., the choice between the V and the G as a local (possibly a further G cutback to Beford-Nostrand with shuttles to Hoyt-Schmerhorn, which would come back to haunt the MTA if they even brought it up), and the lack of cars. <.i>
The Culver Express track is currently being used to conduct brake tests on various R-equipment.
--Mark
Astoria Express service on the W was discontinued as of 1/7/02.
W trains will be local in both directions in Astoria during hours of operation.
8113 is on the way down Broadway to 207.
That would make the 15th R-143 if I am not mistaken.
When are they to go into service, and is the test one still running?
The Work Train Manifest (The list of train of the night) for Monday night work train #23 was going to move four R143's from 207yard to Eest New York Yard. So while one four car train is being trainsfered yesterday, one car was Delvered.
Robert
Keep em chopping Engine Brake. My CI pick is 10:58 AM on Thursday and I don't know what will be left. At least I have far more experience on R142s than any of the 180th crew...possibility is switching over OR 207th. Todays buzz: 96 Redbirds left (married pairs??) Whatever....it's in the Lords hands. At least I'll still have a good job...TA work is EXCELLENT work. CI Peter
Looking at the roster for the current locomotives rasies my eyebrow. There is an equal amount of Diesels to Dual Modes (23 each). Yet, there seems to be PLENTY (If I'm not mistaking, all trains, are...) more diesel trains running on non-electrified routes on off peak hours. Where are these dual modes camping out? It would be convinent for Weekend and Weekday Off-peak riders if the dual modes ran at the same frequency as diesels. Even on peak hours, there's like only 1 DM train per branch going to the peak direction (E/B in the PM, W/B in the AM for the...slow ones). WHY!@#? Heh
Basically it is the lack of fitting in those trains to Penn Station. They can't fill in anymore slots needed to fill in because all slots, especially to Penn Station are way above capacity levels.
"Basically it is the lack of fitting in those trains to Penn Station. They can't fill in anymore slots needed to fill in because all slots,
especially to Penn Station are way above capacity levels."
True - Penn itself is not at capacity. What is at capacity is the ability to empty Penn slots through the Hudson tunnels. Build two more tracks under the Hudson, and you solve the problem (until Amtrak and LIRR treble their schedules and create a new problem :0) )
So why did they spend all this money on dual modes if they can't use them?
The dual modes are used for trains into and out of Penn Station. I'm not sure of the number but there are Port Jeff and Montauk trains every weekday AM & PM that run to or from Penn Station. Since there are just 23(?) Dual Mode locos and 2 are needed for each train, allowing for spares and o/o/s units, I would expect that 8 or 9 daily trains in each direction would be the max that the LIRR could handle. I do not know if they are running that many into Penn Station.
There are at least two Port Jeff runs into Penn a day so that accounts for 4 DM's. 23 means only 11 trains IF all were in service and none down for inspection or problems. 11 trians is unrealalistic so I agree with the Dude that 8 trains (16 DM's) would be the limit for rush hour schedules.
When the order was made, LIRR didn't know Amtrak would require two DM's for each train.
The biggest mistake with the dual mode's (from my perspective, which is as a 100% mechanical know-nothing) is that they serve the LIRR's longest lines. So each actual train is limited to only one inbound and one outbound trip per rush hour. As a result, the LIRR gets a very limited return on their investment.
For example, the 5:44 AM from Port Jeff gets into Penn at 7:20. Even if you could clear the train and turn it in 10 minutes, you'd have at least a 75 minute deadhead express (against peak flow) run out to Port Jeff to try and use that trainset again. By the time the train reached Port Jeff it would be almost 9:00 AM and there really isn't any need anymore. Same goes for Oyster Bay and Patchogue/Speonk.
That all being said, the DM's have occasionally been used as late rush hour replacements when they've been short MU's. Happened a few times last winter where the 8:09 and 8:25 Freeport-to-Penn's were covered by the DM's. That helps me, but doesn't really do much for the folks in Sayville. Electrifying the diesel lines would have given the LIRR considerably more operational flexibility.
CG
There's one a day (M-F) on the Oyster Bay:
6:13 am inbound and 6:10pm outbound.
Thanks, I know of at least one on the Port Jeff and Montauk in each direction . I'll look into it more extensively, tonight.
Actually I think there are two Port Jeff, one Speonk, and one Oyster Bay. That's it. So where are the rest of the engines? It seems like a waste if they don't have room at Penn.
2 each way on Port Jeff,
train 605 5:44am PJ to Penn arriving at 7:20
train 615 7:35am PJ to Penn arriving at 9:27
train 658 4:19pm Penn to PJ arriving at 6:05
train 660 4:49pm Penn to PJ arriving at 6:36
1 each way to Speonk
train 2737 6:11am Speonk to Penn arriving at 8:23
train 2734 5:10pm Penn to Speonk arriving at 7:15*
*- train 2734 is extended to Montauk during summers on Fridays only operating as train 2710
1 each way to Oyster Bay
train 503 6:03am OB to Penn arriving at 6:57
train 564 6:10pm Penn to OB arriving at 6:56
This totals 4 trains each way using 8 DM's with others used on shorter trains.
Well once the GCT connector opens these capacity problems should be alleviated. But the dual modes will still have to go to Penn, since I believe they cannot fit into the 63rd street lower level.
"But the dual modes will still have to go to Penn, since I believe they cannot fit into the 63rd street lower level."
Do you have any source for that information? It didn't see the case when I walked that tunnel many years ago. Of course, I was much younger then.
Each DM train requires two engines due to Penn Station regulations. Maybe they should try running some to Roundbush.
I'd like to be on Atlantic Avenue if they tried....preferably a hundred yard away from the elevated structure...at least.
Ever hear a locomotive fall from an elevated structure while it is collapsing?
The LIRR Atlantic Avenue structure simply cannot support the weight of a locomotive. The only loco (and it's been discussed before here) that COULD go west of the East New York tunnels (in other words, onto the sturcture) was the 44-tonner.
The LIRR Atlantic Avenue structure simply cannot support the weight of a locomotive
I thought that years ago the Atlantic Ave. elevated structure used to handle Steam Engines hauling freight cars to the upper level of Flatbush terminal??
There are two reasons for this 'problem'. First, as JM stated, AMTRAK requires two DM locos on every LIRR (non-MU) train in and out of Penn Station. The second is that the DMs - 500 series locos can be and are used in place of the 400 series (single mode) locos on runs not originatating or terminating in Penn Station.
i have a question is the r 143 still on the 30 day trial run. or did it past the tes . if it past the test what will happen next?
She passed her 30 day test. I would GUESS the next step is a check up of the 8 cars that saw service, and then they will be released back to revenue service.
Also, 5 more MU's are on the property.
The City is pushing forward in their effort to shut down NYCHRR.
From a on-line weekly news letter published by the Straphangers group, "The New York City Economic Development Council wants to shut down the New York Cross Harbor Railroad." ... "Citing a variety of late fees, fire code violations and chemical dumping practices ..."
I think what is realy going on is that the City wants the Bush Term. yard and adjacent tracks/buildings to develop the area. "They" no longer see any need for NYCHRR and see NY & Atl replacing them via the 65th Street float bridge (that the City re-built). In previous papers filed by the City them moved to deprive NYCH from use of yard and tracks to their flot facility.
Meanwhile NY & Atl is still (last week) delivering & picking up car loads as a result of NYCH float comings & goings.
Mr rt__:^)
Right, Mr. T. Seems that NYCH is making the Jersey side of the river as their 'home base'. This means that they can still do floats and deliveries to NY & A down at BAT, although their facilities at Bush Terminal has most likley been padlocked by NYC Sheriffs by now.
I'd guess that NYCH has one or two diesels over at Greenville as all of their other locos are locked up in the barn at Bush T.
BMTman
Hey, my NYRR stock is down to 3 cents a share. What more can the City do it?
NYCH is in good company with Enron
I don't think anything has been padlocked just yet, though the EDC seems to be pushing getting them out of bush terminal and into 65th street yard. 65th street yard is suppose to have CP & NYA as it's operators though, so what will happen here is anyone's guess. My guess is CP & NYA would have to agree to let NYRR work the float bridge, or at least deliever to the barges to the float bridge, and have NYA unload them.
All of this seems moot though, because so far as i've read the STB doesn't see any reason to kick them (NYRR) out of bush terminal.
Boy Howdy. Talk about a legal mess. We got any lawyers around here that can sort through the retoric?
Does this mean More cars at 65 th St. Yard by any chance? Because, well..Thats a good thing.
[Does this mean More cars at 65 th St. Yard by any chance?]
The first answer is, no change, because currently the 65th St Float facility isn't in operation, i.e. just NYCH doing it north or there. They move the cars thru the Bush Terminal yard, down 1st Avenue, then leave them for NY & Atl to pick up (there was such a pick up late last week).
The second answer is, might be an increase, because both CP and NY & Atl are making all the right noises about wanting to move move freight via the Bay Ridge branch (either to/from LI or THROUGH LI on its way to Conn and other northern destinations).
Mr rt__:^)
They only had one loaner in Brooklyn, the EMD NWs & Alco Ss were all out of service ... I heard they faileed FRA inspections.
At least it might be an opportunity for some museum to pick up a complete old diesel ... maybe the engine 35 or 39 folks could use something to move their stuff around ? They are NY natives & were around the same time as their steamers.
Mr rt__:^)
There's at least 2 old alcos in the barn there, plus the battered on by the street...
Yes that is correct, unless NYCH moved them out of there, i.e. they might be in NJ (if I knew they were going to padlock the doors I would load up everything that wasn't nailed down that I thought I could get some cash for).
Mr rt__:^)
NYCH JUST DIE ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!
Apparently, you don't like NYCH, I gather?
BMTman
Nice handle. Angel of death!!!
heh another local RR hater, Take it out on the railroads, remember?
My previous item was from LAST weeks copy of the Straphangers on-line newsletter, here's an item from this week's:
"The EDC asked us to clarify that, while it is pursuing the evictions and an "adverse possession" action at the U.S. Surface Transportation
Board, it does not aim to put the company out of business. EDC said
it will offer Cross-Harbor the opportunity to bring barges into the
float bridge facilities at the 65th St. Yard, operated by Canadian Pacific and NY & Atlantic Railroads."
Now since the float business is basically the only revenue that NYCHRR has access to, if they have to use the City's (NY & Atl) float facility, then they'll get less of the money to move cars across the Hudson ?
In a related item, in last weeks Straphangers Newsletter, they said the City was moving forward with it's STUDY improving the amount of rail freight that comes across the Hudson either by float or a new tunnel to be dug between 65th Street and NJ or SI (there was a May 2000 report that recomended 3 options to increase rail freight across the Hudson: 1 = improved float; 2 = tunnel to NJ; 3 = tunnel to SI).
What do you call a person who really believes that the TA will truly be able to dispense with conductors on its subway trains in the near future? Someone who believes the TA would be up to the task?
TA Management.
OK - One possible answer.
Here's mine: An OPTOmist!
:0)
Groan. (I love it!)
I think someone has been inhaling a bit too much steel dust lately :)
Clever! :-)
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
[What do you call ... TA Management]
Correction: Senior TA/MTA management. Some of the lower level management actually worked on the job & know better.
Mr rt__:^)
My 8 year old daughter voted for 'dumb'.
Politically, I don't know if it will be completely possible in the foreseeable future. However, other big systems like Chicago and London are now OPTO.
Yes, indeed. They are true OPTOmists...
I walked into that one...
OK, that deserves a rim shot.
Washington was OPTO from day one. However, our consists are only 1/2 as long as New York's. Maximum train size is 6 cars. The platforms can probably accomodate more but the system has only so many cars.
One good thing. The operators don't have to play "hokey pokey" with their fingers because we don't have conductor boards to point.
Michael
We have had 8 car trains in the past (pre 1983) and may go back to that very soon on Red and Orange.
Politically, I don't know if it will be completely possible in the foreseeable future. However, other big systems like Chicago and London are now OPTO.
Have any of you heard the automatic announcements on the OPTO Northern Line trains in London. They are enough to drive you mad! "This is a... Northern Line... train to... Morden... on the... Charing Cross Branch. The next stop is... Mornington Crescent." All in an impassive irritating tone. There aren't any of the good old manual announcements now! I miss the conductor who used to say "This is a Barking train. Woof woof."
Just consider the many nationalities that have been absorbed that need to receive 'directions.' I watch 'Brit TV and news,' so when I see a 'thankyouverrrrymuch' I'm blown away to hear an 'EastEnder' accent. Our world becomes closer, especially after 911. CI Peter
Just consider the many nationalities that have been absorbed that need to receive 'directions.'
Irritating, aren't they. Whatever happened to asking if you needed them?
I watch 'Brit TV and news,'
Would you believe that until a few years ago the UK only had 4 television channels?
so when I see a 'thankyouverrrrymuch' I'm blown away to hear an 'EastEnder' accent.
Not many people talk like tha'. Honest, guv.
Our world becomes closer, especially after 911.
Too true. Whatever next? A transatlantic tunnel and Amtrak into London Paddington? Now you're talking :D
So my strange accent is always pegged off from Noo Yawk. Definitely midtown, a little central Joisey and a little southern. Just look at where I live...smack in the middle of the city amidst the foreign consulates and missions to the UN, so look at the 'UN of trainsets' I work on now. Canadian design, USA assembly, German trucks, Spanish power supplies and so on. CI Peter
My speech has been tempered as a consequence of having lived in four different states in different geographic areas. My short "a" still has a touch of Indiana twang; other words such as "off" and "coffee" have a Jersey flavor; still other parts are nondescript.
Back on topic, the announcements on Denver's light rail trains are nonrepetitive and to the point. It will be interesting to see what they do when the new color and letter code takes effect in April. I have to get some film, it's time to take some more photos of the new spur line. The ones I took in December came out very well considering I left the camera in manual mode for the first 7 frames and had the lens stopped all the way down.
"What do you call a person who really believes that the TA will truly be able to dispense with conductors on its subway trains in the near future? Someone who believes the TA would be up to the task? "
An Opto-optimist?
Is that an optomist who wears glasses?
Have you looked at the data, before proposing a solution? How do you suppose the following heavy rail operations compared for the efficiency statistic: operator hours/Vehicles in Maximum Service during 2000: NYCT, Washington-Metro, Atlanta and Chicago?
Which do you suppose required the most operator hours, the least, by how much?
Stephen,
Have you looked through all the posted replies? If you did, you would realize that the original point of my post was a joke.
The answer was "OPTOmist." Get it? :0)
Other responders did treat the question seriously; hence, a lively discussion ensued.
Until next time...
Why don't you try to answer the question I posed? I think you will be very surprised by the answer.
When I get a chance, I'll look into it. Gotta be familiar with the data before I can formulate an opinion.
Gotta be familiar with the data before I can formulate an opinion.
Lack of familiarity with the data does not appear to prevent you from proposing a solution. :-)
Isn't it fun to spar with Stephen? :-)
Better in person! :0)
If I may jump in, I'll bet one the the least efficient (most operator hours per vehicle in max service) is one of the highly automated systems - Wash? Atlanta?, while the most efficient is one of the older systems: NYC or Chicago.
I don't know if anyone new that TA Diesel have Nicknames. I was told it is done by one Opt. They are named for different parts of New York City. These are the ones that I got over the last few weeks.
#63-"The Flushing"
#70-"The New Lots"
#77-"The Rego Park"
#79-"The Queens Village"
#82-"The Williamburg"
#901-"The Manhattan"
#905-"The East Village"
Well this is what I have so far. I will post more if anyone is intraded in this at a latter date.
Robert
#69-"The I have inhaled too much diesel fumes aka Greenwood Cemetery".
Just a quick question...
About how long would it normally take to drive from Philly to the Shore Line trolley musuem at Branford, CT, assuming normal weekend traffic?
Is that something that could feasibly be done on a weekly basis if, say, somebody living in Philly wanted to do volunteer work at Branford, or is the distance simply too far to be practical?
Iquiring minds want to know...
-- David
Chicago, IL
It takes me about an hour and fifteen minutes from the Throgs Neck Bridge so if you know how long it would take you to get to the Bronx just add an 1:15. By the way, to save traffic I would take the Hutch/Merrit combo rather than I-95 from the Bronx. You then get on I-95 near Millford.
Don't drive, take the train. Amtrak to New Haven and then SLE to Branford. Follow the tracks from BRAN(FORD)? interlocking. Jeez, what kind of railfan are you?
Seriosuly, I-95 from about exit 8A, through NYC and along the shoreline is hell on Earth.
See Mike and Jeffrey Rosen's directions.
I don't know that you'd want to do this drive on a regular basis - it is a considerable distance.
I would rail it...
Thanks to everybody for the helpful info.
I was thinking it would be pretty cool to volunteer at Branford on a regular basis once I get settled in Philly (probably this spring or summer), but it looks like the travel time would make it too much of a hassle to get up there on a regular basis. (Right now it takes me about 90 minutes each way out to IRM, which is more within reason.)
However, I'm looking forward to getting up to Branford at least for a visit once in a while. It will also be nice to be so close to NYC, which I plan to visit as often as possible. Maybe someday after I'm done with school, I may even decide to actually move to NYC, and then I'll be able to get to Branford for some actual volunteer work.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'd plan for a 3 hour 15 minute trip, one way.
--Mark
We have a member that does that but stays over night (sat/sun). I don't know where he lives in PA but next time I see him, I'll ask.
6:12 lv Market East (SEPTA)
6:20 lv 30th Street
7:06 ar Trenton
7:15 lv Trenton (NJT)
8:38 ar NYP
walk or subway
9:07 lv GCT (MN)
10:50 ar New Haven
(info from BERA's website:)
walk 6 blocks
11:10 board F bus to Shore Line trolley musuem
Even better
Lv 30 St phila 5:14 Amtrak #190 daily (also departs Newark at 6:24 -that how I did my trip)
Arr 8:43 New Haven
Walk to F bus at State & Church leave at 9:31
Arrive at East Haven Green at 9:52 Monday to Saturday or 10:18 Sunday
Peter the Pole
Peteski,
Your itinerary is better time-wise, but mine is cheaper, and I expect that David would be on a tight budget.
Peter makes the first trolley run at 10:30am. A cab costs $11-$12 plus tip if cost isn't an issue from New Haven Union Station to BERA.
From Philly, the ride up the NJ Tpke (now that the speed limit is 65 all the way up to the GWB) would probably cost you 1:00 - 1:15. Then add an additional :15 - :30 minutes to work your way through the travel restrictions on the GWB, since trucks have to crowd up on the Upper Level. Then, assuming its a normal weekend in The Bronx (which it usually isn't), it's :10 minutes on the Cross Bronx from Manhattan to the Bruckner Interchange, then another :5 from the Bruckner Interchange to the junction with I-695 at Pelham Bay. That's where things get messy. There's usually heavy traffic on this stretch from Pelham to the interchange with the Hutchinson Parkway, Pelham Parkway, and Gun Hill Road. Reason: the Parkway turnoffs are spaced too closely together, with heavy volumes getting on and off. In addition, the Gun Hill Road exit, also heavily used, is on the left, so traffic coming from Pelham Bay to go to Gun Hill has to switch thru 4 lanes, slowing everything down even further. Then there's the turnoff for the Bay Plaza Shopping Center, which gets heavy traffic normal weekend or not. Give yourself another :15 - :20 minutes thru this stretch. Then its a quick :20 minutes to the Conneticut state line, followed by slowdowns through downtowns Greenwich and Stanford (:10 min each). Then its the run to New Haven, a long stretch that's probably about :45 to 1:00. All in all, it's about 3:20 mins if you stick with I-95, on a GOOD weekend. On special weekends, your best bet is to stick with the GSP from Woodbridge to the NY Thruway south(east)bound across the Tappan Zee, then I-278 east to the Hutch/Merritt, then the Merritt to New Haven.
Once you get across the GWB and to the Conn Turnpike (95) it's not too bad, probived:
- Saturdays, Sundays coming back are bad in the summer
- Early AM, once you get to late morning & closer to noon traffic picks up, so aiming for a 10 or before arrival at Branford will make a pleasent trip.
Mr rt__:^)
An hour and a half to NY, and an hour and 15 to Branford, if NO traffic. Could easily double.
David, it runs me about 2:30 to 2:45 when traffic is decent, more if traffic is bad - and that's from exit 105 on the Garden State. Figure about another 45 minutes from the Camden side at I-295 (taking that north to the Turnpike). I don't take the GWB - too heavy even on a good day - but rather go all the way up the GSP to the NYS Thruway and the Tappan Zee, then east from there, it's faster.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
About 3.5 hours. One of our members does the trip frequently from
a suburb north of philly. He posts here rarely with a handle
like JBoylanTyRR.....maybe you can find one of his postings
and ask him directly.
In the March 2001 FEIS for East Side Access, the MTA writes that there was local opposition (aka NIMBY) to a new Third Avenue LIRR terminal. This was part of the reason MTA decided to propose that the tunnel be extended to a new GCT LIRR terminal.
What is the likelihood of major NIMBY to a 59th Street station on the LIRR's way to GCT?
There isn't any plan for such a station, is there?
How many recall that the 63rd St. tunnel is itself a result of NIMBY-ism? It was supposed to be the sixty-FOURTH street tunnel, but the opponents there got it moved. What was the difference? I don't recall (sorry) but I assume a hospital or similar facility might have had the clout.
It was Rockefeller University. They thought sensitive instruments might be disturbed by the vibrations involved in long-term construction. The 64th Street plan was the result of a 61rst Street proposal being judged too expensive.
My guess would be, that very little. The area is quite commercial, I'd say it would add property value if the station were to be built.
Arti
Thank you.
I imagine it would be significant, as I have spoken about that region's NIMBY$ in the past. While the intersection of 59th and 3rd might be very commerical, you are a stones throw from some of the most expensive real estate in the City; Sutton Place and Park Avenue, to name a few.
These residents, who unarguably carry a great deal of clout, might be opposed to increased development and Long Islander commuters pouring out of their ground. I know I would be. Okay, just kidding.
Seriously, someone once spoke of how commercial Park Avenue is in the 59th Street area, and how there were no residences south of 59th Street.
This is false. There are a handful of residneces South of 59th, and the number of pre-war residences rises steeply North of 59th. Each tenant probably makes more in a day than I'll see in a whole year, and we all know money = power.
But then again, you never know,
MATT-2AV
To my knowledge there was never any plan to have an East Side LIRR terminal or station at 59th and Third Ave. The original 1968 MTA Program for Action report proposed a new LIRR East Side Terminal in the vicinity of 48th and Third - with walking connections to the 53rd St/E&F, 51st St #6, and the 2nd Ave. Subway. The lower level of the 63d St. Tunnel was of course tied into this terminal.
59th and Lex-Park is not very residential.
Colorado-based Transportation Technology Center said the Guilford rail line for the most part exceeds the standards set by a federal transportation board. FRA standards require that the roadbed deflect no more than .25". 99.95% of the route tested met this requirement, the exception being a 166 foot section near Kennebunk. Amtrak wants to raise the linespeed from 60 to 79 mph that would shave some 15 minutes from the trip. Guilford is against this because it would mean more maintainence, something that Guilford is generally against. Guilford is claiming that the problem is the 115 pound rail on the line, but aside from both the STB and FRA giving approval for the speed, trains have been running at 79 on 113/115 pound rail for almost 50 years over the national system.
NYDoT has officially submitted a petition to the FRA for class-7 status to be granted to the Hudson Line. This would allow speeds up to 120mph. NYSDOT would implement a Five-Year Hazard Mitigation Action Plan, which would include crossing improvement, elimination and closure. The FRA has invited interested parties to participate in the proceedings by submitting written opinions, data or comments; but the agency doesn't anticipate the need for a formal hearing at this point.
Hooray!
Will you please post links and addresses for writing?
Yes!!! Where can we submit these opinions to?
Could this mean future high-speed rail service through Albany to Montreal?
What's that noise? Could it be the future calling?
The holdup was and might still be a move by CSX to force NY State into rectifying its oppressive property tax on railroads. CSX was refusing to finish upgrading their Hudson Line for 120mph service until the state legislature ammended the law. I don't know how it turned out.
Does CSX own the entire stretch from Poughkeepsie to Canada? Or do they have NYC to Canada? I thought Metro-North owns NYC to Poughkeepsie.
Is it even possible to have high-speed rail from NYC to Canada while trying to chare it with CSX? Wouldn't the headways need to be increased so commuter trains don't get stuck behind freight?
The Line from Saratoga Springs to Montreal is owned by the Delaware and Hudson division of CP Rail. It is a fairly mountainous <80 mph line. The line from Po-town to Albany is the CSX Hudson Line. I do not know why for the life of me why it has not been purchased by the state or Amtrak. There is very little freight traffic on the line.
I do not know why for the life of me why it has not been purchased by the state or Amtrak. There is very little freight traffic on the line.
Yeah, the state seems to have missed out on a commuting bonanza, a commuter rail-style connection from Albany to NYC. Is the 120mph designed for Amtrack, or will Metro-North cash in on that as well? After all, they have been talking about extending from Pok. to Rhinecliff. Might as well go the extra miles to Albany. A high-speed express from GCT to Croton-Harmon to Poughkeepsie to Albany would be great - and fast (2hrs?)
JR
Is the 120mph designed for Amtrack, or will Metro-North cash in on that as well? After all, they have been talking about extending from Pok. to Rhinecliff.
Metro North's proposed expansion from POK to either Rhinecliff or Hudson has been definitely dead for a year or more. Intense community opposition to commuter trains and attendant pressure for development and sprawl killed it. Instead, they have constructed a multi-deck parking structure at POK to give more parking for the increasing # of riders who commute daily (or close) from POK to NYC.
Metro North's proposed expansion from POK to either Rhinecliff or Hudson has been definitely dead for a year or more. Intense community opposition to commuter trains and attendant pressure for development and sprawl killed it.
That's too bad. Yeah, I see how having a good transportation infrastucture would be bad for those communities...what? Create tougher zoning regulations, and they can prevent unwanted development and sprawl. I guess they would prefer to sit in traffic on Rte 9 through Hyde Park and Rhinebeck.
Instead, they have constructed a multi-deck parking structure at POK to give more parking for the increasing # of riders who commute daily (or close) from POK to NYC.
I have seen this, but I didn't think this was a concession to the lack of expansion. I thought this was already in the works since Pok. would be overcrowded even if the expansion didn't happen. I'm glad to see that they are finally renovating that pedestrian walkway from Main St. to the station!
The Poughkeepsie train station was a parking nightmare in the '60s and it has only gotten worse since. The deck is long overdue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I see how having a good transportation infrastucture would be bad for those communities...what? Create tougher zoning regulations, and they can prevent unwanted development and sprawl. I guess they would prefer to sit in traffic on Rte 9
Even though I would have greatly benefitted from MN expansion to Rhinecliff (nearest station to my weekend place in Ulster County), I understand why the towns fought so hard.
They're currently too far to be practical for commuting either to Albany (50+ miles north) or NYC (90 miles south). Bringing less expensive hourly MNservice to a town that formerly had a handful of costly Amtrak runs each day would bring commuters willing to trade 2 hours each way for cheaper housing ... which would then be built in great swaths on former farmland.
And yeah Route 9 is crowded. But they'd upgrade it to handle the new housing, and it'd still be as crowded afterward.
I thought [the parking deck] was already in the works since Pok. would be overcrowded even if the expansion didn't happen.
Could be, I'm not sure. But MN has notably improved service from POK (fewer connections, more express service) over the 10 years I've been riding it. And the new garage is great, at least unless they charge more for using it than for surface parking. (I get there Sun evening and get my pick of spots.)
I'm glad to see that they are finally renovating that pedestrian walkway from Main St. to the station!
They're not. They tore it out. They're building a "kiss and ride" dropoff area instead, and landscaping it. OTOH, the entire parking deck was designed to blend into the station, complete with brick veneer in the correct bond, peaked tiled roofs and arched windows. Nice job.
The ride from NYC to CHICAGO is shorter and faster than the ride to Montreal. CP tracks are not available and the route to Montreal (this is why we came to NYC for Christmas instead) it NYC-Albany-BUFFALO and then up the tug hill plateau along the St Lawrence to Montreal. And the one that runs up through Vermont ends at St Albans and then they put you on a BUS ...
The proposed 120 MPH would only be NYC-ALB/Rensselaer, beyond that the limits are typically 3 MPH straight up, and restricted the other way. 16 hours to Montreal, 14 to Chicago ... yipe.
What happened to the trains NY-Albany-Montreal and NY-Springfield-Montreal? Have they been gone for years without my noticing?
They're not what they used to be. The Springfield one terminates at St Albans and the one that goes through Albany goes all the way west to Buffalo and then up along the St Lawrence to Montreal. There *is* an Adirondacks train that goes there (not shown on the system map for Amtrak) but I don't know if that one's still running.
When we were deciding whether to spend Christmas in Montreal or in NYC, it was that 16 hour scheduled run in coach that had us choose the 2.5 hour ride to NYC over about the same distance. Albany is about halfway between Montreal and NYC ... I don't know the particulars or when things changed, but it was recently ...
The Adirondack runs daily. It travels 383 miles in 9 hours 45 minutes. The travel time from Albany is 7 hours 5 minutes.
Wowsers ... there it IS ... wonder why when we tried to book for Montreal, Amtrak's reservation center had no idea of it nor did it appear on their website? 7 hours would have been _tolerable_ for the ride from here. Is there a conspiracy against Canada that I've been missing somehow?
Thanks for the tip ... now I'm grumpy about being sidelined to NYC instead to enjoy the company of some friends from here and Harry's place instead ... not that I don't have fellow foamers and transit employees and management to play with up there as well. I think things worked out just fine the way they did despite Amtrak screwing the pooch.
It's possible the train was sold out for that day (though that would surprise me), in which case the website might decline to tell you that it exists. Not sure if the website still does that, of course, because it's an awfully confusing thing to do from a user point of view.
The ride between Albany and Montreal is quite slow and curvy and, at least when I rode it several years ago, can be none too smooth at times. I don't see that becoming a high-speed line unless there's a new right of way.
Yeah, we'd done it a long time ago ( >10 years ) and it was actually a nice, bucolic ride. That was why I was surprised to see it *gone* when we fancied a ride on it ... still, we had more fun in NYC ...
BUFFALO!?!?!? Kevin, the Montreal Secondary connects to the Albany Service Lane at Syracuse, Then you go thru the Tug Hill region on a nice long jaunt to Montreal. Upgrades may be coming, however, because developers want to ***E-X-P-A-N-D*** the heck out of Carousel Center in Syracuse, making it the biggest mall in North America, this mall is located next door to the Syracuse Amtrak station and the Montreal secondary junction is right in it's back yard, real convenient for transporting bunches of Canadians, their wallets bulging, to the mall to spend their hard earned C$ ***KA CHING***
Sorry about that - if the train "turns" at Syracuse instead of Beefaloo, then the time it takes to get there is even MORE pathetic. Once upon a time, the train ran along Lake Champlaign ... from here, that trip is too damned long. Then again, the adirondack rails ain't what they used to be ... until the valuation is changed for property tax purposes ... in other words, I don't blame CP for not fixing them.
Nothing happened ... the legislature did NOTHING this past year and they're all up for re-election this year. No budget (just a flurry of bills at the end of session for some items) and no changes to revenue law. CSX didn't get what they wanted, so nothing has happened. Biz as usual ...
the legislature did NOTHING this past year and they're all up for re-election this year.
Sounds like time to clean house. The U.S. can't wait any longer for a high-speed rail system! We are sooo far behind other countries, especially when you think about how long our rails have been around. That golden spike driven when East met West is long gone, and was probably pawned to bribe a senator into defeating money for rail projects!!
The money for high-speed rail studies should be approved the day the proposal is dropped on the desk.
JR
The airlines have more "happy money" to hand out to politicos, emptying the company treasury ENRON style to purchase their dreams. Amtrak has no wallet. Guess who wins?
Guess who wins?
I'm guessing, the politicians? Well, at least until the great railfan revolt of the 21st Century. Railfans Unite! :) Just kidding for all you CIA-types. This website is not used to promote violence, only action.
Amtrak has no wallet.
They don't even have a pocket to put the wallet in...
And there's the rub. Wonder how many "competitors" will pony up to the bar to build the "free marketplace railroad?" Penn Central was only too willing to dump it on the taxpayers ... I just don't see this working. And if the states get it, this should be really amusing. I can see a shuttle bus across the Hudson, another across the border at Rye, and let's face it - Rhode Island? Might as well get on a bus in Connecticut straight into Boston since Providence is about it.
Can we imagine CSX with passenger cars? Ex-Ringling Brothers coaches perhaps with only a few dents? I really don't see this working out.
Better yet: rides with stripped out Redbird carbodies going trailer at high speeds for a REAL thrill. CI Peter
CSX would buy them if only there was an offer ...
There was a post yesterday about former LIRR coaches for sale. Now THAT would DEFINITELY be CSX material ... un-GOH'd ...
"Can we imagine CSX with passenger cars?"
I can, sorta. Operation of passenger service by freight railroads is possible, under the right conditions. Union Pacific is infamous for how it handles Amtrak trains on its tracks out west. But UP also operates three Metra lines under contract, and those lines are just as efficient and on-time as the lines operated directly by Metra, including the UP-West line which is HEAVILY used by freight trains.
That puts the finger on what the right condition is -- an attractive and lucrative operating contract that covers the freight company's full cost of operation plus a decent profit. But Metra can offer such a contract because it is well funded, and it's well-funded because nobody seriously questions its existence or utility. Amtrak -- even an Amtrak limited to being a central agency for doling out routes for freight railways to operate -- would therefore have to be MUCH better funded, and funded with more certainty, than it ever has been in its 30+ year history.
That same funding could achieve miraculous results with the CURRENT Amtrak ... I think the "game" here is to slash the bucks further and there's no way in hell CSX is going to take a loss ... the staggering costs would insure same given the ridership ...
"That same funding could achieve miraculous results with the CURRENT Amtrak."
I agree, but the problem is that some people, rightly or wrongly, don't trust Amtrak (at least as presently constituted) with additional funding. These are generally (with some exceptions) the very sort of people who think that privatization is a cure-all for government inefficiency. Therefore having the trains run on a contract basis may be just the sort of assurance of efficiency to get the "anti-Amtrak but not anti-passenger-rail" people on board (so to speak) for additional funding. Spoon full of sugar and all that. Of course, it'll never win over the virulent "intercity passenger rail is old fashioned and should go the way of the buggy whip" types (McCain, DeLay), but it's not intended to, either.
I can recall a time when the Regional Transportation Authority was months behind on its bills, and the freight roads threatened to cancel its entire schedule.
They didn't amend the law, it got lost somewhere in the NYS budget debacle and 9/11. CSX did file a lawsuit, but I haven't heard of any outcome of that yet.
Got the soundtrack to Ocean's Eleven the other day and had it in my walkman on the subway. Was incredible to listen to while
f l y i n g through the East River tunnel on a #4 Redbird...
Does anybody else like to stand at the railfan window with background music? If not, I HIGHLY recommend it!
-wayne
Play the music when you're home watching
the run on video.... but when you're there
in PERSON, let the sounds of the rails
overtake you... as you can only do so for
a limited number of days (now)...
Rmadillos a'comin'
especially the music the redbirds make !!
Oh yes definately! I listen to music alot while railfanning. I mix my own tapes for it. On a local line or slower line I'll listen to soft music, on a fast line like the 7X or 5 I'll listen to dance/club music.
Some of the best songs for railfaning are
America-From a Moving Train
Dave Koz-That's the way (I Feel about you)
Mike and the Mechanics- Another Cup of Coffee
Robert Miles-Children
Everything but the Girl-Missing (club mix)
for example
Of course, now that Heypaul's bootleg CD is out, you can ride on a train and have sounds from the olden days.
Lust For Life by Iggy is always good when you are in a vehicle that is rapidly increasing acceleration.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That would have been sacrilege in the days of the R-1/9s. OTOH there was no such thing as a walkman in those days. Maybe a portable 8-track player, but that was it.
Hi,
I have to travel from atlanta to harford, ct in feb... any suggestions on getting there?
I was thinking:
Plane to lga
taxi lga to gct
then metro-north to hartford...
is that crazy? are we better off renting a car at lga and driving? I am going with some coworkers who are not as rainfanny as i am
thanks for the help!
allen
Metro-North doesn't reach Hartford. The closest it comes is Waterbury, some 30 or 40 miles to the southeast. I have no idea whether there is any transit to speak of between the two points.
You could take Metro-North to New Haven then Amtrak to Hartford.
But then if you're with non-railfan co-workers, you probably are better off with a car--or at least Amtrak all the way from Penn Station.
:-) Andrew
Thanks Andrew... I saw East Hartford on the map... is that far away?
How long is the drive from lga to hartford in both non-rush and rush hour driving?
How many miles
THANK YOU!!
I'm actually not sure of the exact distance between Harford and Waterbury. Too far to walk, for sure! It would no doubt be an expensive cab ride.
Laguardia to Hartford is like a hundred-odd miles. I would take the eastbound Grand Central Parkway to I-678/Whitestone Expwy north over the Whitestone Bridge, then coninue on the Hutchinson River Pkwy, which becomes the Merrit Parkway/CT 15 in Connecticut, then it becomes the Wilbur Cross Pkwy, still CT 15. Exit at I-91 north to Hartford. This route is usually a lot lass traficked than I-95.
I would guess the car trip would be about 2 hours in non-rush hours. No telling what it could be in rush hour.
:-) Andrew
I'm actually not sure of the exact distance between Harford and Waterbury. Too far to walk, for sure! It would no doubt be an
expensive cab ride.
About 30 miles. Bonanza Bus runs between Waterbury and Hartford, but Metro-North's limited schedule to Waterbury might make this a difficult connection to coordinate. I would recommend Metro-North to Danbury, which has more trains than Waterbury, then Bonanza to Hartford.
You could fly to Hartford (actually Windsor Locks, a bit of a ways north of that city). P & WA has an airport in E. Hartford, but you could only fly in a test plane :-( There's also a small airport in Hartford, Brainard Field, don't know how much service goes there.
East Hartford is just across the Conn. river from Hartford. Could likely catch Ct Transit across the river.
Best rail from NYC is Amtrak out of Penn Station to Hartford, but not too many trains go to Hartford/Springfield. You could also take M-N to New Haven, then Amtrack from there. There's also buses out of The Port Auth in Manhattan that go to Hartford.
Honestly, you realy would have to love rail to want to do it from NY to Hartford.
Mr rt__:^)
That must be why I traveled by rail nearly every time I had to travel from Hartford to NY and back while in college. It's really not that bad of a trip. It's only slow going through Wallingford and Meriden because there the train runs through the centers of the towns. It can also sometimes be slow west of New Haven, but that part of the Corridor is controlled by Metro-North, so blame them if your train is slow.
What about Amtrak From Atlanta To NY Penn then change to the Hartford/Springfield Train?
As long as you're flying to LAG, you might as well connect to a flight right into Hartford/Springfield airport.
Metro-North doesn't reach Hartford. The closest it comes is Waterbury, some 30 or 40 miles to the southeast.
D'OH!! I meant Waterbury is 30 or 40 miles to the southwest of Hartford. My bad!
:-) Andrew
Maybe a flight into Westchester Airport
and rent a car from there on out...
Actually, airfare into Hartford (BDL) itself isn't that expensive.
Mark
I'm not sure why you're not looking at the Hartford/Springfield airport (Bradley - BDL). Delta flies there non-stop from Atlanta.
If cost is an issue, AirTran is a low fare airline which flies non-stop from Atlanta to Boston (about 100 miles from Hartford). Delta generally matches the AirTran fares when they compete in a particular market -- so you may be able to get a very good deal on Delta.
CG
STOP ADVOCATING AIRLINES. THIS IS A RAIL TRANSIT SITE!
Interesting point.
My own opinion is that rail and air both serve different needs, and that a good transportation system uses and integrates both. Air can serve the cross country trips, while rail is harnessed for shorter journeys. In a really perfect world the two could be used in one trip, taking rail from small city directly into the big city airport hubs.
Mark
Air travel should only be used if no alternate rail option exists. For example, going to Europe, Alaska or Asia.
That is, until they build that Bering Strait tunnel!
Mark
Your opinion brings up a fun speculative question...
If we had all the money in the world, and no one to stop us, and the best technology that is likely to emerge in the next two decades or so, what kind of cross-country rail system does everyone think could be built? What technology would it use, how fast would it go, and what kind of travel times would we have for a trip from New York to Los Angeles?
Mark
Maglev trains are testing in Germany with a top speed of 375 KPH.
Forget that. Rail should mainly be regional and compete with commuter airlines. Rail should connect with major airports to feed them. Rail simply cannot compete with airplanes with distances over 600-700 miles. Business travelers, the bread and butter of the travel industry, prefer speed over comfort. Time is money. Allen074 is going on a business trip with non-railfans, his company can't afford him to spend a night getting there, presumably.
Domestic airlines are pure evil and I have been boycotting them for several years now. Everybody should stop flying until they stop treating passengers like maneuer. The rule of thumb is that traveling always takes a day. You can either spend that time in an airport or in a nice comfey train.
That's spelled "manure", Mike.
"The rule of thumb is that traveling always takes a day"
Perhaps that's your rule of thumb. Mine is: If the meeting takes less than 6 hours and you can make the trip in about three hours each way, then you do it as a day trip. That means 6 AM flights to cities as far away as Dallas or Houston arriving back in NY at about 10PM or later. Basically, I can fly to Dallas, have an all day meeting and be home watching Letterman before Amtrak gets me anywhere near Texas.
Having sampled both the airlines and Amtrak quite frequently, I'd have to describe Amtrak's level of service as that most approaching the manure line.
CG
Ok, you have a bias, I'm trying to look at this from an overall perspective. One day is way too long. Domestic travel (and all domestic travel, in general) should be no more than 5 hours. International travel no more than overnight. Anything longer is for the pleasure folks who want to take their time.
I guess it wasn't clear what your objective was. If it's speed, fly to Hartford (Bradley Intl Airport).
Add two hours each way stand in the security line and another hour each way getting too and from the airport.
What would your arguement have been pre 9/11 about standing in security lines? Besides, the airports have gotten their act together and the wait is no more than 30 minutes.
The wait on Amtrak is 0 minutes. Before 9/11 my arguement was general congestion and waiting for hours stuck out on the tarmac.
Later on when you're out in the real world and your employer doles out vacation in weekly increments, and you want to go to California for a week and actually have time to DO things there, you'll change your tune.
First, I am also boycotting the West Coast so I wouldn't be caught going there. Second, I firmly believe that getting there is more fun than the actual destination. Exemples include last year's trip to Topeka KA for a Wedding via Amtrak and last week's 36 hour Amtrak trip to Washington DC via Cleveland. I had 8 hours in Cleveland and it was more than enough (spent most of that practicing night photography). I guess I am at odds w/ the concept of a Vacation Destination. Why do people need to go to some organized place to have fun? You should start having fun as soon as you get in your car. BTW, since my dad got his new job, we haven't gone on anything resembling a "vacation" since 1996.
True, the trip should be at least half the fun. Even when I do fly I try to schedule long layovers rather than short one, so that I can get out and explore my layover cities.
Mark
So you're also boycotting the Coast Starlight, the California Zephyr, the Pioneer, the San Diegan (or whatever it's called these days), the CalDOT Coaster, BART and MTA(Los Angeles) Metro, the Empire Builder, the Southwest Chief, and San Diego Transit's trolley line to the border, right?
Some railfan you are...
Empire Builder, the Southwest Chief, California Zephyr, the Pioneer and the Sunset Limited are all acceptable as long as I do not enter CA, WAS or ORE. Anyway, all those Western railroads are seriously dodgey what with their non-electrified, non-PRR, route signaled, lo-density single track lines.
Hey I love trains, that's why I'm here! But let me think of a simple trip.... NY to Florida. 2 hours by plane, or almost a day and a half by train...... I'll take the two hour route.
"Air travel should only be used if no alternate rail option exists. For example, going to Europe, Alaska or Asia."
Alaska is a bad example. You can take Amtrak to Seattle, transfer to VIA Rail across the border (I believe Amtrak will bus you there) at Vancouver, then take VIA Rail, changing trains once, to a ferry which will take you to the Alaska panhandle.
Shame on you, Jersey Mike! Trying to cheat VIA out of a fare to Alaska?
Actually, you don't have to change trains at all. You can get on the Alaska ferry at Bellingham, Washington. That way, you never have to go through customs.
The down side is that from a railfan point of view, you don't get to ride VIA, and by missing Vancouver you miss a chance to ride their Sky Train.
Mark
True. You have choices...
I am referring to mainland Alaska, not the panhandle.
To get tothe Mainland, you need to fly.
But you can fly from the panhandle, and thereby not miss out on railfanning and ferry-fanning...
WHAT KIND OF A RAILFAN ARE YOU, ANYWAY?
:0)
If you wanted to get from the "lower 48"* to interior Alaska without flying, you could drive it via whatever route to Brittish Columbia then the Alaska Highway, a more or less direct route to Fairbanks albeit a very indirect route to Anchorage. Roads reach only a small part of Alaska, though.
:-) Andrew
*Technically isn't "lower 48" a misnomer. Obviously we're further south than Alaska, but Hawaii's northernmost point is quite a ways south of the 48 contigious states. If you wanted to be to a stick-in-the-mud you could say the "lower 48" is everything but Alaska and Washington State.
:-D Andrew
It's an indirect route to Anchorage, but to get from Fairbanks to Anchorage would mean a ride on the Alaska Railroad, a railfan dream trip of mine, plus the train goes by Denali National Park for great views of Mt. McKinnley I'm told.
Mark
The views from the railroad are nice but not great. To really see the mountain you need to spend some time in the park.
When I was there they had free shuttle busses from the railhead into the park, and in fact banned cars except for people with confirmed camping reservations.
Would it be OK to advocate for a cargo airline chartering Antonov 224's or the C-5 Galaxy to carry a subway car?
:0)
Depends on where you are shipping it to.
I suppose if you were shipping the car from one end of the subway line to the other, the airplane might not be appropriate.
Mark
I don't see anything wrong with advocating the fastest and cheapest way to get somewhere. I'm a railfan, but the thought of spending 16 hours or more on the one Amtrak per day from Atlanta to New York is absolutely mind-numbing.
Perhaps with the time and money saved he can visit some of the trolley museums up in Connecticut. Maybe even buy a souvenir!
CG
Actually, I like to fly because I'm a railfan. The more I fly through Atlanta, the more I get to go railfanning on MARTA.
Mark
Bravo for you. MARTA is underappreicated on this board. For me, I enjoy it, but it's gets boring at times, but that's becuase I ride it everyday.
Yeah, I don't always appreciate my own wonderful SEPTA M-4 cars that I ride everyday, too. Also, One can easily get bored with a system that only has two lines. Philadelphia and Atlanta could both use more lines, that's for sure. But I'd give just about anything if SEPTA's two lines were as clean and nice-looking as MARTA's two lines!
I've asked this before, but if you were to build more lines in Atlanta, no realistic restrictionsof cash or NIMBYs, where would you build them?
Mark
It'll be easier to draw a map. I'll make a crude map later tonight showing what I'd like to see.
Great! I can't wait to see the map.
Mark
Here you go:
Orange and blue lines are existing. The thin lines are extensions of the existing lines, and the red, green and Purple are all new lines. All of this is using heavy rail subways, of course.
West line: should be extended to FIB and some other point west. This is actually likely to happen in 10 years.
Procter Creek line: extend to Perry Homes, and make service end at Avondale all times except late night, with the Vine City-Perry Homes shuttle during that time. This station was in original MARTA plan, but not likely to happen now.
South line: Extended from the airport down the a new soutern terminal. This too likely to happen, a new terminal down there is in the works. A branch just south of East Point to the new international terminal on the eastside ajacent to Concourse E. The terminal will be built, but the MARTA extension, probably not.
More on ATL's expansion: Master plan
East line: not really anything worth extending to
Northeast line: Extended to Norcross is a must, beyond Norcross would be nice, but I don't think it is nessasary.
North line: Can be extended past North Springs. Talk about this is going on now.
Red line (Northwest-southeast line): From Marietta in Cobb County, thru the business district of Cumberland, thru Atlantic Station, transfer at Arts Center. This segment will likey have light rail by 2010. Then going thru the Druid Hills and Emory neighborhoods. The Emory area is very congested and MARTA bus service is busy there. Transfer to Edgewood/Candler Park and cross over I-20 and turn east toward Lithonia, where a lot of new development is happening. This corridor is quite busy with bus service also and MARTA is conducting a study for a rail line in this area. However, their plan would connect it to the East line.
Green Line (Perimeter line): Would start at Marietta with the NW-SE line, and diverge after Cumberland and follow I-285 to Dunwoody (Perimeter Center, the largest office market in the city) Trasfer for the North line, then continue along I-285 and merge with NE line north of Doraville, would continue to Norcross. A light rail is being studied using this basic alignment.
Purple line (Thomasville busway): I pick a busway becuase the area has demand, but not enough to warrant rail service. Starts at GA State and would pass by Turner Field (was built with PRIVATE funds :-) ) and continue the Thomasville. This plan was in the original MARTA plan, except that it connected at Candler Park.
but the thought of spending 16 hours or more on the one Amtrak per day from Atlanta to New York is absolutely mind-numbing.
YEAH RIGHT! Bring your scanner and a camera for some active fun and you can go to this website: http://www.trainweb.org/csxtimetables/Site/contents.html and print out all the timetables for your route and then chart your progress as you go, making note of interlockings, signal instalations and freight movements. You can challenge your friends to a game of "lease unit bingo". Best of all, depending on when the train leaves Atlanta, you can go to sleep in those nice comfey Amfleet I seats with the leg and foot rests. Why waste time sleeping at home, do it while you travel and wake up at your destination. Also, due to Amtrak's current loading levels you can probably secure 2 or 4 seats to yourself and the door windows on Amfleet 1's can open giving you a great railfan view (although they are not as good as the windows on Superliners or Horizon coaches).
I don't know about you, but my wife and I like the Deluxe Bedroom. My own bathroom, shower, a great view and reservations in the restaurant car.
The problem w/ the bedrooms is that they only offer a view out of one side of the train. If the train starts wrong railing you loose your trackside view. Back in coach you can stake out a whole row accross OR hang out in the "dome" car OR stake out the railfan view out the rear window (the superliners can see over the freight cars on the rear). Have you ever taken a window shot? See, you can open the windows on the platform doors. When you are overtaking a train on an adjacent track you wait until you pass then head end power. You then throw open the windoe, stick your head/camera out and get an amazing shot.
Indeed. But a deluxe bedroom, on the Second level of a Superliner, pushes the aisle out to the side - so you have access to the aisle window because there is no bedroom opposite you.
With the economy bedroom you have to hope the bedroom opposite you is unoccupied. If so, the train crews don't mind if you shoot pictures out its windows.
Bring your scanner and a camera for some active fun and you can go to this website: http://www.trainweb.org/csxtimetables/Site/contents.html and print out all the timetables for your route and then chart your progress as you go, making note of interlockings, signal instalations and freight movements.
Most people here would find that a lot of fun. Unfortunately, the original poster said that he'd be traveling with a couple of non-railfans, and they'd probably find that sort of activity dead boring.
I just got back and I went Amtrak. Heading South I had a double seat the whole trip. The legroom is great. I was able to strecth my legs all the way forward and lean all the way back and still not hit the seat in front. The seats also have a lower portion that can be raised which when combined with lowering both seats gives a sort of bed, bed it uneven and plus you can walk to the lounge car.
Jist try to be sure you dont have a person with a waist problem sitting next to you! (I did not. I have ridden on greyhound where I had a quarter of the aisle seat holding on to stay off the floor or squashed against the window.)
As far as delays, the airlines also have delays. I am hooked on Amtrak and plan on doing it again. Plus no one has* *really* hijacked train- a train cannnot go to Cuba or crash into a building and on the NE Corridor and probably other areas a Train which was oeprated by a hijacker or disturbed person could be stopped by cutting electric power, switch or signal changes.
Amtrak NE now requires photo ID at least in NY. Even in Georgia they had signs asking for photo ID-"No photo ID no ticket".
The Amtrak station is Atlanta is very small and the platform is low platform- even after the Olympics. I thought for sure Big A would have high platforms due to the olympics.
Perhaps Rob can fill us in on continuing proposals for a new Downtown Amtrak Station(High platforms probably being new construction) and Georgia Commuter Rail (ie Metro North, LIRR, VRE, etc.)
I wasn't expecting any improvments to that station for the Olympics. This is an airline town, not an Amtrak town.
The "Multimodal Passenger Terminal" (what a bland name) is a project the GA DOT is taking up, I work for them full time as a co-op student and my department will eventually design it. The project is still under study, so no design work had started. It will be between 5 Pts and Dome/GWCC and it might take up several blocks.
The terminal will house a new Greyhound bus terminal, a bus terminal for the various suburban express buses, MARTA buses might be moved to over there, Amtrak, commuter rail for the metropolitan area, intrastate rail, and retail and business. Also, connections to Five Points will be made. This will be a big project!
Most sites I found were dated 1999, but this one should give you a good overview.
Thanks! I bookmarked the site. Good luck with the project.
Wrong, Mike. This is a subway transit site. Discussions of Amtrak, though tolerated, are strictly speaking off-topic. (From the SubTalk header: "It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only." Amtrak is not transit.)
That said, Amtrak is sometimes just not practical. For instance, how would you recommend traveling from Champaign, IL to NYC? Say I wanted to leave Champaign on 3/20/02 and return a week later. If I took the train, I'd be leaving Champaign at 6:10am and arriving in NYC the following day at 3:00pm, thanks to a 10:10 layover in Chicago. On the return trip, the layover is "only" 7:35. This would cost me $212. For $230, I could fly American with same-day service, or I could take Travelocity up on its unbranded $142 option (which would still be about a day faster than Amtrak in each direction). Or, if I had a car at my disposal, I could drive for under $100 in about 15 hours each way.
Take Amtrak's Cresent into DC Union Station and then catch an inland route train to Hartford. Simple as that and you'll get some super railfanning in.
I don't doubt thar the railfanning would be great. But this appears to be a business trip. I assume that time is of the essence.
:-) Andrew
Aside from the NEC you would get a nice trip on CSX from Atlanta to DC including the RF&P Sub.
"I don't doubt thar the railfanning would be great. But this appears to be a business trip. I assume that time is of the essence."
I've taken more than one business trip by overnight train, specifically from Chicago to Washington D.C. and to New Orleans. My employer paid for coach (but not the upgrade to sleeper) because in both cases I left Chicago after 6pm and on the return trip arrived in Chicago before 10am. In other words, leaving on Sunday night and arriving Monday afternoon was no more time-consuming from the company's perspective than the other people from the office leaving Chicago by plane late Monday morning and arriving early Monday afternoon.
Southwest airlines flys into Bradley Airport, as does US air and American and a few others. Bradley is a few miles north of Hartford. You'd either need to get a bus or an cab down. I think there's a CT transit bus that runs fairly reguarly, but not off hours. It'd take you to the Old State House in Hartford, which is effectively downtown.
You could consider taking the M60 bus from LaGuardia to 125th Street in the Bronx and then take Metro North to New Haven. At New Haven, change to Amtrak to go to Hartford.
Michael
Carriers like Southwest Airlines serve Bradley International Airport (BDL). There is some CT Transit service to downtown Hartford (go to www.cttransit.com and download some schedules in PDF format). Bradley is Exit 40 from I-91 near the Windsor/Windsor Locks town line (CT Route 20 is the road to the airport). The airport is about 13 miles north of downtown Hartford. CT Transit has connections to East Hartford. One of them is the "B" bus to Silver Lane (also serves as a secondary run to Buckland Hills Mall in Manchester). Amtrak services Union Station which is Exit 48 (48A Eastbound) from I-84 in Hartford.
Allen, are you visiting this area for the first time or did you once live "up here"?
Carriers like Southwest Airlines serve Bradley International Airport (BDL). There is some CT Transit service to downtown Hartford (go to www.cttransit.com and download some schedules in PDF format). Bradley is Exit 40 from I-91 near the Windsor/Windsor Locks town line (CT Route 20 is the road to the airport). The airport is about 13 miles north of downtown Hartford. CT Transit has connections to East Hartford. One of them is the "B" bus to Silver Lane (also serves as a secondary run to Buckland Hills Mall in Manchester). Amtrak services Union Station which is Exit 48 (48A Eastbound) from I-84 in Hartford.
Allen, are you visiting this area for the first time or did you once live "up here"?
This is probably a FAQ and/or probably off-topic, but I'm curious why none of the diesel lines in NJ (Raritan Valley for example) run into NY Penn Station? Someone told me that it is because the diesels would consume all of the air in the tunnel, but I'm not sure I believe that and am interested in confirmation. -Thanks
Not off-topic at all! This is rail-transit related.
I know that there is poor ventilation in the East River Amtrak/LIRR tubes, which is why you can't run diesels there. I suspect it is the same with the Amrtak/NJ Transit Hudson River tubes.
Plus the grade would tax the diesel to a point it will stall. Plus lack of fresh cool air would shut down the disesl (Southern Pacific uses diesels that draw cooler air close to the ground.)
Diesels in general foul up the air. Even if they're not dangerously foul, passengers end up breathing the exhaust and getting really unhappy.
I'm not aware of any diesels in any heavily used tunnels (as opposed to something in the Rockies that gets 1 passenger train per day).
The diesels out of GCT are dual mode: 3rd rail and diesel, and don't operate in diesel mode until they're outside.
They use diesels at Chicago Union Station (an undergrouns facility). The air quality is so poor you can see the gray exhaust always hanging in the air. It burns the eyes/throat and gives you a headache.
Chicago Union Station may be below street level, but it's hardly underground. It's pretty open, especially on the river side.
Even so, trains usually operate their lights and HVAC plugged into station power, and they don't start up the diesels until about two minutes prior to departure.
And the fumes can still give you a headache.
I'd hate to try running diesels into a station which was really underground.
-- Ed Sachs
It's more of a question of the steepness of the grades than anything else.
The tunnels have a 1.3% grade (according to Pensy Power I). You can compare this to the 1.83% grade on Horseshoe curve and the 2+% at Sand Patch and Locust Summit. I believe that the limitation is air quality. Back in steam days the locomotives would suck all the good air out of the tunnel. Today I believe there would be a problem w/ the CO and diesel soot settling down at the bottom of the tube.
Yeah, but in/out of Penn, you need trains that can not only maintain as high as 60mph, but be able to stop and then start again, and accelerate. In a decent amount of time.
That's probably tied with the number one concern. Stall your train at or near the Hudson tunnel, and you've toasted the entire rail system into New York...
We need a second set of tracks. Write your legislators and support NJ Transit's request for one.
Or, stall a train in any tunnel in/out of Penn, you screw the rush. I've heard the LIRR 'protect motors' at Harold are more show than go - and would be hard pressed to pull a dead MU out of the tunnels. I know when Amtrak runs anything more than a short P-32 hauled train, they normally double up, even on trains that one AEM-7 or E-60 handles.
Given how much diesels suck at acceleration, and suck on grades, It's no wonder it's not done into penn as a regular thing - you'd never be able to get the trains through. Not to mention, imagine the smell and smoke?
Given how much diesels suck at acceleration, and suck on grades,
But you are forgetting that in the tunnels the P32's are operating in electric mode. They can suck as much juice as the 3rd rail can handle.
I've heard the LIRR 'protect motors' at Harold are more show than go - and would be hard pressed to pull a dead MU out of the tunnels.
Their orders are to PUSH the problem train out of the tube. If you look back to the early days of diesel power you'll see a single 1500hp unit pulling 45 cars. For grade pushing you need TF more than HP. This is why they have diesel hump trailers, usually attached to a 2000hp locomotive. With a trailer you have the same hp spread over double the motors and this is enough to push a full sized freight train over a hump. At HAROLD there are two MP-15's each w/ 1500hp and 4 traction motors. This should be more than enough to push 14 light weight M1 MU cars.
I don't understand why you guys have such a problem with diesels. On British Rail we regularly run diesels through tunnels, and they outperform electrics in terms of acceleration. Granted that we have sucky electrics, but diesel technology can be made to perform just as well. Genesises are very capable engines.
Oh by the way, hello from all of us attending TRB in Washington, DC. I suspect half of Subtalk people are here. I saw lots of interesting stuff on the new V train and the 63rd St Tunnel (I think that's what they were talkign about). Some NY Transit guy was using track diagrams identifible as one shown on NYCSubway.org in his presentation!!!
Lexcie
Post about the TRB then why don't you.
"I don't understand why you guys have such a problem with diesels."
Two words: passenger comfort.
You just can't keep the exhaust out of the passenger compartments.
"But you are forgetting that in the tunnels the P32's are operating in electric mode. They can suck as much juice as the 3rd rail
can handle."
Wait a minute. Do the electric motors on a P32 run any harder off third rail than when the diesel is spinning their generator?
I'd be interested to know the horsepower-weight ratio of a P32 in electric mode. How does that compare to an E60 or AEM-7? That big diesel engine represents dead weight.
The HP:Weight ratio of the AEM-7 is the highest of any locomotive in the US, still. The P-32 is less than 1/2, and I think the E-60 is too. Most conventional US diesels are even more dismal than the '32. IIRC, the ratings are slightly higher on third rail, but there's a time limit to how long they can run, and how fast.
I've heard through service from Albany to LI was considered using the turboliners, but was nixed because the third rail mode on those can't pull a loaded train through the tunnels.
I read somewhere that the steepest grade in the Hudson River tunnel is 1.92% eastbound approaching Penn Station. The famous GG1 electrics could start a 17 car train on that upgrade!
I had heard 1.92 also, but PPI says 1.3 with a pic of a 3600hp P5 pulling out a train.
I believe it's 1.92% for a brief portion as you approach the NJ side. In any case, I'd love to see a single unit diesel try to start even a 12 car train on that grade. And get up to track speed by the portal, a trick the GG-1 could no doubt do. The E-60 can do it too, I bet the AEM-7 can, or come really close, and the HHP-8 and ALP-46 should no problem. The most I've seen on an AEM-7 is 8 or maybe 10 cars, but I think HEP limits them more than anything, once they get rolling, they are pretty punchy little motors, I've heard.
Of course, such is the joys of electric traction - amazing short time overloads that make things like near 2% grades a non issue. And, of course, an MU train doesn't even flinch.
The most I've seen on an AEM-7 is 8 or maybe 10 cars, but I think HEP limits them more than anything...
Starting a train at the steepest grade is the limiting factor for the AEM-7's. The AC's pull more cars than the unrebuilt motors.
Since about 1900, steam and later Disel Locomotives unable to travel on Manhattan Island. Equiptment changes on NYC/PC/Conrail/Metro North Would be made at Harmon Yard & At Other Yards Outside Of NYC.
NY Law bans anything but electric after an early mishap with steam and the Park Abe Tunnel.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-red15.html
It may be that among the possible future plans, extension of the Red Line to 130th is a typo. Last I had heard, there was discussion of extending the Red Line via the East leg (I-94) to 103rd, but I think there had originally been a plan to extend via the West leg (I-57). For the latter, it really would make sense to extend to 130th, but the former would more likely be a typo (since even by 103rd the population appears to be relatively sparse [http://mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?pan=e&mapdata=uSSjFjlWFD%2b37VfQxOZoWWObBMNloR8FvkxQuAogQ9NvuROSgVzENPRaWAXDSNqj%2f7cyhIPHc4c8X3%2fT59bGmJ4HfCnVnNfQnAX1xaq4xsVeNJhaynZIsULSj5cOwCMw3XsqwaFYYYYp4E%2bO%2fENEt2eUUYURFMTO2SdB%2b%2f8uPy1pM21wCnOJwaFzOTLKACE8d2wIwGS0ZthiNZIEJShmGNMUAg7NMl8X0QmaUIAJELuuKEnMRFLM0FsDIn01TIEkMaD0%2bKDwXV5QmCn%2bRhu3RxuHO5RRAHin]).
Anybody know any more about this in particular? In general, it's nice to see evidence that the Chicago system is finally being maintained/improved.
Chris
It's probably a typo; there have been long-range plans to extend the Red Line to 103rd for a while now.
The main body of the article also had some tidbits that would be of interest to some SubTalkers:
Station, power, and track improvements to Dan Ryan branch of Red Line
Skokie Swift to lose catenary this summer, and become fully third-rail
Other expansion plans, including Orange Line to Ford City, Yellow Line to Old Orchard, Blue Line to Schaumburg, Blue Line express trains from Loop to O'Hare, and Metra from O'Hare to Midway.
Here's the link again:
Red Line to get major rehab
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hopefully a couple of the extensions get built.
Of course, it's really important the rehabs get done right. Some of Chicago's transit lines, I see, resemble what was going on in NY prior to the Capital Plans...
Chicago's Metra is also expanding two lines. The UP-W line is extending west from Geneva to Elburn, and Southwest service is expanding from Orland Park to Manhattan. www.metrarail.com
has information on this.
If the SS becomes third-rail, I presume that would eliminate the train change at Howard. A rush-hour express from Skokie to the Loop would be a fun ride.
Not necessarily, as the platforms at Dempster (IIRC) are only long enough for 4-car trains. However, they could be extended without too much difficulty.
If it were up to me, I'd consolidate the Yellow Line into the Purple Line, with Purple Line express trains beginning at Dempster and heading straight into the Loop for a one-seat ride. The Red Line, instead of terminating at Howard, would then make local stops through Evanston to Linden.
However, you can be sure the fine people of Evanston would be screaming bloody murder for losing their one-seat express ride into the Loop, and the headways for the Evanston portion are much longer than the rest of the Red Line.
On a related subject, I noticed in the Sun-Times article that part of the rehab of the Dan Ryan branch of the Red Line will involve lengthening the platforms. Why? The Red Line already operates 8-car trains down there. It would be nice if they could eventually run 10-car trains on the Red Line -- God knows it needs the extra capacity -- but that would mean also lengthening the platforms on the North Side. I wonder if this is a long-term plan the CTA has up its sleeve, or if there's some other reason to lengthen the platforms on the South Side?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Given that the trains to Dempster are four cars, and an express could run direct to the Loop, would you need more than four cars? True, passengers at Howard would not be able to board but I'm talking about an express with no stops between Dempster and, let's say, the Merchandise Mart.
I like a different model for express trains. Granted, the current purple line express would be improved by changing it back from running local from Belmont to the Loop, but I think limited stops for express is fundamentally important (especially to advocate as serving any other than a single favored area). For example, the Skokie Swift to the Loop, I would envision as having stops at Howard, Loyola, Belmont and Fullerton (I was tempted to remove the either the latter, but DePaul University would be an important regular-fare-generating destination; perhaps I could be persuaded that Belmont isn't necessary), Merchandise Mart, and the Loop. How about a reverse journey around the Loop--that is, Merchandise Mart then Clark/Lake in the mornings (inbound) and Clark/Lake then Merchandise Mart in the evenings (outbound)? Is there any precedent for that, or could that ever be done?
some thoughts from a one time Chicagoan. 1. Belmont is a necessity--its the junction
2trying to reverse dirction on the Loop soetime during the afternoon would be highly disruptive
3 train length/routes/loads. extending trains to Skokie might work IF te ridership ramps up fast enough to justify the equipment diversion of 8 car trains. The run though rather than terminate time at Howard might make it all work faster. OTOH if CTA ever starts running ten car trains on the South Side Redline, major changes would be necessary between the north portal and Edgewater-Berwyn. Unlikely in this decade.
I think even a Skokie originated express should at least stop at Belmont.
Didn't the Evanston Express once upon a time stop at Loyola? I think that Wilson was an express stop, too, back before the yard burned down.
probably, my memory of the Evanston Express stop profile is dim. The changes over the years have been 'all over the map'. The real issues are. of course, trip origin destination pars and operational constraints.
As a policy issue, I think Belmont as a junction w/Ravenswoof is necessary. beyond that I have been gone too long to have a feel for current traffic patterns.
It used to stop at Morse and Loyola going towards the Loop in the
morning and coming back in the afternoon. Ran on outside tracks
the other times.
How long ago was that? For the longest time, the Evanston Express ran nonstop between Howard and Merchandise Mart.
In the late 60s (maybe into the early 70s), the Evanston Expresses stopped at Morse and Loyola, but ran non-stop between Loyala and Merchandise Mart. There were crossovers between the express and local tracks south of Loyola.
-- Ed Sachs
I rarely ever rode on the Red Line north of Bryn Mawr; however, I could watch trains from my aunt and uncle's 44th floor condo on the lakefront. There were temporary switches once on either side of Thorndale; what would now be called Red Line trains were bypassing Thorndale on the outer tracks due to what appeared to be trackwork. It used to be very interesting to watch that line during different times of the day: 8-car trains during rush hours; 4-car trains during middays and Sundays; 6-car trains on Saturdays; and 2-car train at night and early Sunday.
Over the years the Evanston Express has had many stopping patterns.
From what I've been told by a motorman who worked the Evanston, before the tower was removed at Granville, the southbound AM Evanston ran from Howard on the inner two tracks making both Morse and Loyola. It then crossed over to the outside express tracks and ran directly to the Merhandise Mart - then made all the stops in the Loop. On the morning return northbound trip it was express from the Mart to Howard. Can you imagine riding a train of 4000's on one of those trips? The PM rush hour reversed this pattern, with southbound running express from Howard to the Mart, and return northbound trips crossing over at Granville to make Loyola and Morse before arriving it Howard. I have a card timetable for the Evanston Express from about 1965 which shows this service - and trains ran every three minutes at the height of the rush hour.
The next change was to run express from Howard to the Mart. This was routine until about 1987 or 1990 - IIRC.
The next change had the express trains stopping at Belmont, Fullerton and Chicago Avenue, between Howard and the Mart. There were several sets of PCC's still handling these runs until their retirement in 1995. This service lasted until the OPTO in 1997, when the trains ran express only between Howard and Belmont. I then referred to it as the Evanston NOT Express. However, if you're going to Howard, the train does skip quite a few stops between Belmont and Howard.
The trip between Belmont and Howard would be faster on the mainline (Red) if A-B Skip stop service still operated, but that ended in 1995.
I don't recall Wilson being a stop for the Evanston.
Evanston Express service has been expanded in December for early morning (reverse riders gain here) and later evening service. I hope that the service works out, draws some good patronage, and they keep it after the 6-month test.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
I remember when the 4000s ran on the Evanston Express, only I never rode on them. The all-steel 4000s weren't exactly speedsters by Chicago's standards; IIRC their top speed was 40-45 mph. I could always tell when they went by my aunt's apartment building because they sounded distinctly different from the 6000s.
Now that you mention it, you're right - there should be a stop at Belmont since it's a junction between the Red and Brown lines. An important spot for traffic.
A question on the Brown: The line bends near the Steppenwolf and Royal George theaters. Why? It's been a few months since I road the line and I can't recall any obstructions that necessitated the bend.
Why lengthen platforms? Perhaps to add alternate exits at the next southerly crossover and get rid of those horrible side trips by the connecting buses (i.e., going a half-mile north (say, from 59th/61st up to 55th) in side street traffic and back). I always thought that the red line in the Ryan median was curiously slow, so it was good to hear that speeds can be increased.
Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to keep the Purple line as it is, with the Red line extended to Skokie (perhaps with some short-turns at Howard)? Nobody's service is reduced, and Skokie finally gets direct service, albeit local, to the Loop.
the problem is load/car usage. The Red I believe is 8/rush the Yellow is 2 cars. So aside from enlarging the platform at Dempster, which is relarively easy, the question is why run 8 car trains out there five days a week and nothing on weekends. Mind you, in my dreams I would run it 7 days extend it miles north and maybe an Electroburger and chips....
realisticly, if it were extended down the main as a split of the Purple, that's a start.
Then you'd have to bring back at least one of the Electroliners.:-)
I'm sure the engineering drawings are somewhere. The only requirement is money (will that is).
Maybe IRM could loan their Electroliner.:-)
True. So how about having most Reds terminate at Howard, with every fourth or fifth train continuing through to Dempster? Does the track layout support such operation? The Purple line would remain unchanged.
its years since I have spent an afternoon there, so I am not au courant on the trackage. That said, I elieve it should be easy enough to send an occasional Red line train out there. My caveat was, more about having 8 car trains running to Dempster. AND, what's the likelihood CTA would wake up and start running to Dempster 7 days and fasp 24 hours? Is there a market? Or more accurately, how long will it take to grow a ridership CTA will feel satisfied by?
How come the CTA seems to be pushing so many expansion plans as compared to the MTA?????
"How come the CTA seems to be pushing so many expansion plans as compared to the MTA?????"
Chicago simply excels at getting public money!
One thing that I think Frank Kruesi has brought to the CTA is his ability to get more funds from the public pot. That makes him OK with Mayor Daley.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
They should clone him and send the clone to New York then.
I think that it's a matter of catch up. So much of the system was ignored for so long (prior to the first major revitalization project, the green line rehab of the 90s), but, now that there has been such an increase in ridership, it's impossible to deny the need of major transit investment.
Your question confuses me, though? Isn't the 2d Av. Subway something far greater in scope than any revitalization projects, even combined? I doubt an entirely new line will come to Chicago anytime soon.
I doubt an entirely new line will come to Chicago anytime soon.
You forget our new Orange Line to Midway, which opened in 1993. While it's admittedly much less of an ordeal to built a rapid transit line above-ground along existing freight ROW's than to build a new subway in a dense urban area, our Orange Line was designed, funded, and built in an instant compared to the Second Avenue Subway. (That said, a plan for an Archer Avenue Subway to Midway Airport has been floated as early as the 20's, but today's Orange Line uses a different alignment.)
The main reason there's currently no plans for entire new CTA lines is that, once the Orange Line was built, there aren't really any more corridors or destinations that are really screaming for rapid transit service that would require a new line. The only exception to this, aside from fantasy plans by SubTalkers, would be a crosstown line along Cicero Avenue from Skokie to Ford City and then west to the Red and Green Lines. But that's already a long-range plan by the CTA, and may be accellerated if Daley really wants a direct rail connection between O'Hare and Midway.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I did indeed forget the orange line, but then I figured no retraction was in order because that proves another point, which is that Chicago wouldn't build a _subway_ (and as you point out, that was at one point the idea). My vote for pragmatic Chicago fantasy plan is Grand Avenue, since it would make a nice corridor for a subway, in the areas between the blue and green lines (which admittedly are somewhat shady but also are beautiful areas of the city undergoing redevelopment [e.g., Humboldt Park]) and in River North, which lacks a good connection to the NW side and the O'Hare line.
"The main reason there's currently no plans for entire new CTA lines is that, once the Orange Line was built, there aren't really any more corridors or destinations that are really screaming for rapid transit service that would require a new line."
That's true in that there's no significant popular or political pressure for a whole new rapid transit line. But it seems to me that the almost bizarre proliferation of express bus routes from Lincoln Park, Edgewater, and Rogers Park down the inner and outer Lake Shore Drive and Marine Drive to north Michigan Avenue -- the endless parade of series 13_ and 14_ bus routes at rush hour -- is, by itself, a STRONG argument that enough ridership exists in the areas significantly (read: too far to easily walk) east of the Red-Purple-Brown trunk line to support an entirely new line.
I envision a route* using the outer, Purple Line, tracks from Howard to a turnoff -- somewhere between Berwyn and Sheridan stations, or perhaps where Clark passes under the line -- to a new subway under Sheridan and then Clark, turning down Oak to finally pass under north Michigan Avenue itself and end at a terminal near the Metra Electric terminal at Randolph Street. This would allow, at a later point in the future, for a through north lakefront-south lakefront route (with two IC/MetElec tracks set up for third rail and stations at rapid-transit spacing added) as far south as (say) Kensington or South Chicago.
*Probably titled Yellow, reusing the color after Red Line trains are run through to Dempster St. Skokie as a result of the third rail project.
interesting thought. see my other post about a simple method for boosting Met Elec usage and utility. When I was a teenager, CTA had dreams of a westside crosstown perhaps along Western Ave. The proposed O'Hare to Midway would provide this limk. Toobad they tore down the Humboldt Park Branch.
That area, and the Metra stations come closest to screaming for rapid transit.
There are some abandoned rail embankments that could prob. be cheaply converted and support rapid transit: the 49th embankment the orange line runs on goes east all of the way to the Dan Ryan, a spur from the Dan Ryan to Midway would have decent traffic stations at Damen, and vedry high one at Ashland.
The embankment the orange line runs down east of Western cuts down a long way, and probably could support decent stations, 55th, Marquette. maybe some others.
On the north side the embankment that runs along Bloomington (between North and Armitage) runs through the area between the blue and Green line, I'd imagine that it would have pretty decent ridership, a metra line uses this for a bit.
Here's a fantasy line for Chicago. Converting the underutilized Metra Electric South Chicago Branch to rapid transit. There's need for such a service as evidenced by the heavy ridership on the #6 & #14 Lake Shore Drive express lines and neighborhood densities. Plenty of room on the mainline for a conversion but this line clearly couldn't run at grade level on the branch. Don't think there's the political will for this though. Besides, think of all the NIMBYs!
why wreck something that woeks well already. The "simple" and equitable step is swipe to enter usage of CTA farecards for Metra )IC) service within city limits whether or on the mainline or the branches.
The major reason my granddad switched from the IC to the (then) 5X Jeffrey was price--because the net time from 51st to the loop was the same. While that is ancient history, the times are still comparable. The IC pioneered mag stripe ticketing in the sixties. Worst case replacing all machines on the Metra lines with CTA compatibles should be relatibely cheap--not much new design. To go along with this policy change, encouraging CTA bus routes to make good transfer times with Metra. While we all 'love' the Red line in the Dan Ryan, frankly it was an expensive replacement for local service on the Rock Island which died out in the fifties.
"The 'simple' and equitable step is swipe to enter usage of CTA farecards for Metra )IC) service within city limits whether or on the mainline or the branches."
But the Metra Electric would still ultimately be a commuter line, not a rapid transit line. A train every two hours on Sundays, for instance, is clearly not rapid transit. A line doesn't have to run at 5-minute headways, but IMHO at least 3-4 trains an hour every hour from (say) 6AM to 12PM is a necessity to be called rapid transit.
RIGHT, In the fifties when I spent summers with my grandfather in South Shore, the IC ran trains on twenty minute headways between AM and PM rush after about 7 or so it got thinner but my point is that we have the ROW, and it it clearly underutilised compared to back then. Thus a program of integrating the service into the single fare system AND an increase in service would IMHO be a relatively cheap investment with a good potential.
The IC to me was a premium service over the express bus lines. One where you rarely had to stand and never got caught creeping through traffic around Solider Field, Grant Park and the in Loop.
I agree with the single fare Metra/CTA intergration within Chicago.
There was, IIRC, a feeble attempt in the 70's at CTA/IC rider intergration when CTA put transfer stamp machines (remember those)on some IC South Chicago branch platforms.
More would have to be done in addition to fare intergration and increasing service to make the Metra Electric service attractive. Like a massive capital improvement project to upgrade all South Side stations.
The L conversion fantasy was just that as I do prefer the service as is. I just see the potential with the major traffic generators along the lines from the Museum Campus, Solider Field, Mc Cormick Place, Museum of S & I, U of Chicago, as well as residential neighborhoods. All which could be better served by the existing Metra Electric lines.
Wgen I chose to use the 5X from 71st I always sat, when I used IC from the adjacent Bryn Mawr Station, I usually stood--at the railfan door at the very front next to the motorman. The seventies experiments are after my time there. Recently, RTA completely rebuilt the 'South Shore station at 71st % Exchange complete w/ full ADA.
Indeed my old neighborhood could use some TLC both transit and otherwise.
sorry earlier post should read 71st st although indeed the old 5x was also comparable to the IC in times from 51st to the Loop as well. In the sixties the Jeffrey express ran AM rush through late forenoon taaking shoppers downtown. Afternoon service began around 3pm.. Concurrently there was a '2' Hyde Patk Ecpress again directly competing with the IC. While I certainly applaud CTA's management for serving a market, they bled the IC. Now that its 'all one public entity' the emphasis should be on best service to the riders.
When the Dan Ryan line was conceived in the sixties, it was proposed to serve the Morgan Park and Beverly Hills area via the I-57 corridor. Residents of those neighborhoods strenuously objected. They considered themselves well served by the Rock Island's commuter lines. There was also a racial aspect; many did not want "those people" in their neighborhood. As a result, the terminal was set at 95th and State Streets.
Wow, I still have the Sun Times special section from the first day of
service on the Skokie Swift in 1964. It also shows a prototype of the
2000 series that has since been retired. I feel old...
There is no reason a Skokie train couldn't go to the Loop now, the
pantographs are flattened after Crawford. When the Evanston Line
(Purple) had trolley poles, the trains ran to the loop with the
poles lowered at South Blvd.
well, I was there that day.
> There is no reason a Skokie train couldn't go to the Loop now,
> the pantographs are flattened after Crawford. When the Evanston
> Line (Purple) had trolley poles, the trains ran to the loop with
> the poles lowered at South Blvd.
And, of course, on the same trackage used by the Skokie Swift, the North Shore Line's interurbans lowered their trolleys and ran into the Loop (and at some periods through to the Jackson Park Branch) from 1926 to 1963.
Alan Follet
Hercules, CA
Currently the CTA does not allow pan equipped 'L' cars to operate south of Clark Jct. This is located just north of Belmont. I'm guessing the reason for this rule is there are clearance problems between that location and the Loop.
A lowered pantograph is more obtrusive than a lowered trolley pole.
Additionally, would it make sense to equip a large portion of your fleet with expensive to maintain overhead equipment to run through service to the Loop? This was the question that George Krambles had to answer in 1964 when the Swift first opened. The need to keep non-standard equipment (i.e. pantographs) to a minimum is the main reason the 'Swift' only runs between Howard and Dempster.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
"Currently the CTA does not allow pan equipped 'L' cars to operate south of Clark Jct. This is located just north of Belmont. I'm guessing the reason for this rule is there are clearance problems between that location and the Loop."
The choice of Clark Junction as the cutoff would suggest that the problem is the pedestrian overpass at the Belmont Red/Purple/Brown station. Clark Junction is likely the last full set of switches (a train on one track can change to any other track) before Belmont, and therefore the last place to turn around before going CRUNCH with the ancient overpass.
Look some pics of the 7 line yesterday, including some from the railfan window. Also got a shot of the West End.
Take a look at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains soon!
Well, I answered my own question on new LIRR service to midtown.
The East Side Access project included $2 million in the 2000-2004 Capital Plan to do a design study of a pedestrian connection between a new Sunnyside Station (the station itself funded within ESA) and both Queensborough Plaza and Queens Plaza subway stations. The Sunnyside Station would serve trains headed for Penn Station, and would obviously not be used by Grand Central-bound LIRR consists, which would be underground at that point.
This would, in MTA's view, eliminate the need for an underground LIRR station in midtown other than the Grand Central terminus.
So an LIRR service intended to replace the never-built bypass Super Express on Queens Blvd. might look like: (other Queens stops?) then Jamaica-Kew Gardens-Forest Hills ---->Sunnyside(transfer to N,7 at Queensborough, transfer to E,V,G,R at Queens Plaza)--->Penn Station.
I assume a train stopping at Sunnyside would not stop at Woodside, and vice versa.
The Grand Central LIRR Service would be underground through the Sunnyside Yard and Yard A, according to the FEIS. So it could visit Woodside station, but not Sunnyside Station. Eastbound, some trains could do the Port Washington service, while others go to eastern Queens and onward.
It's seems like quite a hike from the LIRR Main Line in Sunnyside to Queensboro Plaza. Perhaps they'll install moving walkways like they have at Court Square/23rd-Ely
A hike? it's perhaps a one block walk to the E-R-V-G stop. N/7 is longer though...
They'll probably connect the platforms to the queens blvd. bridge. no moving sidewalks.
I certainly hpe they offer amany conveniences as possible. A canopy would be nice, to keep transferring passengers out of the rain and give them shade on summer days.
I think they might canopy the bridge sidewalks, though i don't recall where i read that. I feel bad for anyone that uses the stop to transfer to the N/7 though, unless they clean up that area before then. currently it's a haven for prostitutes, strip clubs, etc. (though met life (?) just moved an office there, a good sign).
B"H
is it me, or does it seem that rails deflect an awful lot when trains go over them? I was in bklyn bridge station and noticed that on the NB express tracks just north of the boards the rails literally must have moved an inch downwards and outwards as a train went over. Is that something to be concerned with? Is it normal for rails to deflect so much? I can understand a small amount, as trains are heavy, but how much is normal?
-yitz
Happens on embankments (I've noticed several spots especially) all the time.
Stuart, RLine86Man
And I think the reason why it is deflecting on Type II (concrete base) trackage is because the bolts that are supposed to support the wood ties are either becoming loose, or the ties are breaking down due to the constant shifting of the level of track.
Stuart, RLine86Man
It's a good thing to an extent, just like how bridges deflect a little under strain. If they didn't budge at all, they'd simply break under the pressure. Obviously if they deflect too much there's bound to be problems, but I think an inch or 2 is normal.
One more reason for R142 TBU failures.
Some deflection at an unsupported rail joint (i.e. a joint
which falls between two ties rather than on top of one) is
normal in the vertical direction. Any lateral motion, or
any significant deflection of rail other than at joints, is
a sign of poor track condition. See the other recent thread
on water damage. Next time you are there, take a close look
for the wooden half-ties separating from the concrete and for
loose or missing screw spikes, bolts or pandrol clips.
I'll ask my track inspector buddy. One thing about the new CIs is the wide experience we bring to TA. Pandrol clips do allow a little play but the plates MUST be secure. CI Peter
B"H
should it be reported? to whom? is it dangerous?
It should be reported to NYC Transit Customer Assistance: 718-330-3322. People there will forward the report to the right office for investigation, and if it needs to be fixed it will be fixed.
David
Dangerous? Not particularly. If left untreated long enough,
it will result in a broken rail. Track inspectors are supposed
to walk every piece of track every few months. When I've seen
them (usually in the midnight hours) and I know of a defect in
their district I mention it to them, usually a budding problem
like spikes starting to work loose. The Track Geometry car also
comes along periodically and it will pick up on a defect of the
severity that you describe. Of course phase II, rectifying the
fault, that's another story.
But should you report it? If it is causing a customer service
problem, such as excessive noise when trains go over the defect,
yeah, call up customer service and approach it from that angle.
If not, and you don't have any background in track, I'd say don't
bother, because unless you can deliver an accurate technical
description of the condition using the right terminology, honestly,
your complaint is likely to be ignored.
B"H
exactly what I figured, which is why I didn't bother to walk down to the tower and alert the folks there.
I have searched the archives, and did not see any threads that match this, so here we go...
There are currently two options to route the 2nd Ave subway south of Houston St.
1 - A new tunnel down Water St., terminating at Whitehall & Wall St. No Brooklyn access.
2 - Connect to the unused portion of the Nassau Line's stations (J/M/Z) with the possiblity of merging with the M/N/R to Brooklyn.
I would like to present a 3rd option that is similar to #2 but expands the usefulness of other lines as well.
Take the Northbound M train from Bay Parkway and connect it to the 2nd Ave line after Canal St, with a connection to the F at 2nd Ave/Houston. The M would then continue up 2nd Ave to 125th St, as outlined in the MTA planning study. Currently the M goes from Brooklyn to Brooklyn, guaranteeing a multiple-seat ride to get uptown. This change would allow riders to make the same downtown stops (except Bowery - one of the least used in the system - and Essex - not needed with a connection to the F at 2nd Ave) and continue up the East Side to connect with most other lines. This option also gets rid of the need to merge the 2nd Ave line with existing M/N/R service (as outlined in #2 above) allowing more 2nd Ave TPH through the Montague Street Tunnel. Otherwise that tunnel would be quite crowded with 4 lines running through it, and service would need to be scaled back.
The C line would be re-routed to the terminal at Middle Village/Metropolitan Ave. The trainsets would be able to make the clearances and fit into the platform lengths on the Eastern Division. The C would make all local stops between Middle Village and Essex (same as existing M service,) then go through the Chrystie St. tunnel to the 6th Ave local tracks, stop at BWay-Lafayette then switch to the 8th Ave line before W4th to its current route uptown. This would allow Middle Village riders to travel uptown without transferring, and still have the ability to go downtown via a step across the platform to the J/Z which would remain unchanged and terminate at Broad St. This also gives J/Z riders an across-the-platform transfer to uptown 8th Ave service.
The V line would then terminate at Euclid Ave (current C terminus.) It would run local along the Fulton Line, then change to 6th Ave local before W4th and continue to 71/Continental via 53rd St. Thus, a reason to take the V downtown.
New cars would be purchased for the 2nd Ave Line, and the surplus M trains would go to the V line to be able to extend the length of the route to Euclid Ave. C trains would have plenty to get to Middle Village.
The 2nd Ave Line could be the brown M, C would remain blue, and V would remain orange. I can't seem to find the website that had a chart of all the unused letters/colors in the rollsigns. Anyone know where they are?
The only potential problem may be all the switching that has to take place below W4th. Can that area handle 2 locals crossing over and not disrupting the F or E?
Let me know what everyone thinks.
JR
Actually, this has been indirectly discussed, but not in so many words.
One question is how to connect from the J/M/Z tracks to the 2nd Ave tracks. Possibly this would be immediately east of Bowery station, turning under Forsyth St and then using SD Roosevelt Park to eventually end up under 2nd Ave. Maybe Bowery station would need to be moved a few yards west.
Related to this is the opportunity to put in a passageway from the north end of the Grand St station to the east end of the Bowery station, now providing a transfer among the J/M/Z, B/D, and 2nd Ave lines in Manhattan.
All that transferring south of W 4th is a concern. I've been wondering if there is a possibility of switching ALL local IND trains, so that C and E both go from 8th Ave to Houston and F and V stay on 6th Ave both above and below W 4th. Since there are flying crossovers for the locals south of W 4th this would mean no merges. The problem I see there is then too many of the trains at Jay St Boro Hall are then headed to 8th Ave and too few to 6th Ave.
A better idea is to directly tun up Chrystie St from Delancy. The Bowery would be closed permanently.
I've been wondering if there is a possibility of switching ALL local IND trains, so that C and E both go from 8th Ave to Houston and F and V stay on 6th Ave both above and below W 4th.
What would the terminals be for the F/V/C/E?
F would terminate at WTC, V at Euclid, C at 2nd Ave (or in the Eastern Division according to the plan bein discussed in this thread), E at Coney Island.
The idea definitely has some issues associated with it.
A few more thoughts:
- The F will have fewer trains since some Quenns Blvd trains going through the 63rd St tunnel will swing downtown onto the 2nd Ave line.
- Therefore it's easier to switch the F and the B than the V and the C. Run the F to West End and the B to the Eastern Division. This can be done now with a existing crossovers north of W 4th or at some expense with a flying junction east of Bway-Lafayette.
- The question remains, will anyone ride this Eastern Division train to midtown? It can only provide a direct no-change route to midtown for a small fraction of Eastern Division riders.
If there was an Eastern Division Eggspress on the Jamaica Ave/B'way/6th Ave. and it was equal to or near the travel time of the "F" from Van Wyck to 34th St I'd use in an alternate fashion with the "F"
But the T.A. would have to :
a) Lengthen the Platforms.
b) Build a By-pass express along Jamaica Ave from Cypress Hills to Eastern Parkway
c) Install express track along Jamaica Ave for peak direction .
d) Eggspress stops, Jamaica center, Sutphin, Woodhaven eastern Parkway.
You can't make Woodhaven an express stop without demolishing buildings.
Swapping the locations of the platforms and local tracks, and staggering the platforms would allow the limited space to be utilized. Tight, but doable. Somewhat similar to the Lexington/14th St platform layout.
avid
Not possible. The existing side platform depths are far too narrow to be considered as island platforms. It would be narrower than the ones at Wykoff.
The main problem with the Eastern Division is that there is no true express service to Jamaica, and the platforms are too short, otherwise we could run anything out there. Your ideas make sense, but I think most of those F trains would be empty from Jamaica since they almost duplicate it's route through Queens. I guess it would depend on where in Manhattan the rider is going. It would be slow through Brooklyn.
"b) Build a By-pass express along Jamaica Ave from Cypress Hills to Eastern Parkway
c) Install express track along Jamaica Ave for peak direction ."
This should have been done a long time ago because it would have greatly reduce the crowds using the E line into Jamaica Center.
N Bwy
If you reroute the F to the West End Line, what's going to take its place along the Culver Line? The V? Then you'd have to run the V 24/7 (meaning the G train will have to be banished from the Queens Blvd line completely).
For the F to access the Manhattan Bridge and the West End Line, it will have to run express along 6th Avenue, meaning that the 6th Avenue Express tracks from Rockefeller Center to 34th Street will have to be shared by the B, D and F trains. The B would have to switch to the local tracks to get to Chrystie, which, given how many F trains run, may cause delays.
But actually, if the B were to run through Chrystie and up 6th Avenue, it would offer a couple places to transfer. You would be able to transfer to the 1/2/3 at 14th St (but you'd have to do quite a bit of walking under 14th St to make the transfer) and to the N/Q/R/W at 34th Street. The only problems are the switching and finding a suitable replacement for the F on the Culver Line.
"If you reroute the F to the West End Line, what's going to take its place along the Culver Line? The V? Then you'd have to run the V 24/7 (meaning the G train will have to be banished from the Queens Blvd line completely)."
The V to Culver on weekdays. On weekends the F could go to Culver. Lots of posibilities are available for the West End line. The 2nd Ave Line could go through Nassau St to the West End. Or the B could go there over the Manhattan Bridge. No trains would necessarily need to go between Broadway (Bklyn) and midtown, since you wouldn't need to solve the problem of trying to squeeze too many trains onto Nassau St.
"For the F to access the Manhattan Bridge and the West End Line, it will have to run express along 6th Avenue, meaning that the 6th Avenue Express tracks from Rockefeller Center to 34th Street will have to be shared by the B, D and F trains. The B would have to switch to the local tracks to get to Chrystie, which, given how many F trains run, may cause delays."
No, run the F local to Bway-Lafayette and then ideally build a flying junction to allow it to go to Grand St while the B goes to Delancey St. Take a look at the track maps. It's possible, and not that expensive while you're digging up the whole area of Houston and 2nd Ave anyway.
Also, don't forget, there are only going to be half as many Fs on 6th Ave; the rest will turn south at 63rd St and 2d Ave. So even a surface level crossover east of Bway Lafayette would work. There would be 12 D trains, 10-12 Vs, 8 Fs, and 8 Bs, with the Bs and Fs needing to switch tracks.
But that's assuming the full 2nd Avenue subway gets built. That won't happen for a long time.
>>> No, run the F local to Bway-Lafayette and then ideally build a flying junction to allow it to go to Grand St while the B goes to Delancey St. Take a look at the track maps. It's possible, and not that expensive while you're digging up the whole area of Houston and 2nd Ave anyway.<<<
Would the B still be running express on 6th Avenue? How would it get to Delancey without switching to the local tracks? Or would it switch?
"But that's assuming the full 2nd Avenue subway gets built. That won't happen for a long time."
This whole thread is dependent on a "full" 2nd Ave subway being built, at least from 125th to Delancey. The first piece is 125th to 63rd - this thread is irrelevant for that. The 2nd piece is 63rd to Delancey.
"Would the B still be running express on 6th Avenue? How would it get to Delancey without switching to the local tracks? Or would it switch?"
As I said, build a crossover east of Bway Lafayette. Best as a flying junction, less good as a grade level crossover. The original proposal had a cross-over of Cs and Vs south of W 4th that would be more congesting that my suggested B and "reduced" F crossover.
I could see this as working, fully integrating the Nassau St, Broadway elevated & 2nd Ave. lines. Sending one of the current Broadway elevated routes (J/Z or M) up 2nd Ave clears up the necessary capacity to operate another 2nd Ave route through Chambers & down Nassau St.
Here's my proposal:
J/Z 125th St to Jamaica Center via 2nd Ave & Broadway Bklyn, 24/7
M Metropolitan Ave to Broad St, 6 AM to 9 PM
K 125th St to 9th Ave (middays), Bay Parkway (rush hours) or Broad St. (all other times).
The 125 St. terminal on 2nd Ave. would have to be designed to handle at least 24 TPH to make this work. Accessing the 2nd Ave line from Essex St. could be made by building a ramp down using the 2 unused express trackways between Essex St. & the Bowery (The Bowery would be closed, as it would necessitate the M to run to Broad St 24/7 to keep it open). The new trackways would turn north to merge with tracks coming up from Canal St/Centre (again, the 2 unused express trackways would be utilized by the new 2nd Ave "K" route). The 2nd Ave line will have to go "under" the 6th Ave line @ Houston to do this, so a cross platform transfer to the B/D @ Grand St might not be possible, but a transfer to a platform underneath the present Grand St. station might be doable.
A line from 125th Manhattan to Jamaica Center goes to none of the places that create the crowds a well-used subway line needs.
- It doesn't go through the core of midtown, but only along the fringe. Second Ave is almost entirely residential.
- It doesn't go through the financial district.
- It doesn't intersect with large numbers of lines that do both (like the L does).
- The residential neighborhoods where it originates are not particularly dense.
This is a line that is doomed to have very few riders below 42d St.
It would be much better to run part of the current J/M/Z service into the B or C line so that it goes through the core of midtown. That's technically quite feasible.
Or, send the M to 2nd Avenue from 9th Avenue/Bay Parkway via Nassau St. Some new connections might need to be made, but at least it goes through the financial district. That could alleviate some stress from Lex lines since it's pretty close.
It would be much better to run part of the current J/M/Z service into the B or C line so that it goes through the core of midtown. That's technically quite feasible.
The 6th Ave line is not an option for eastern division trains for several reasons described earlier. The 8th Ave line is not a desirable routing, unless you want to get to Penn Station. The 2nd Ave route would paralell the already overcrowded Lexington Ave IRT, and I think many J riders would use it over the Lex. The area west of 2nd Ave, south of 60th and north of 34 certainly isn't residential exclusively. If people are so bent on making a one seat ride to midtown from the eastern division, the 2nd Ave route makes the most sense.
"The 6th Ave line is not an option for eastern division trains for several reasons described earlier. The 8th Ave line is not a desirable routing, unless you want to get to Penn Station. The 2nd Ave route would paralell the already overcrowded Lexington Ave IRT, and I think many J riders would use it over the Lex. The area west of 2nd Ave, south of 60th and north of 34 certainly isn't residential exclusively. If people are so bent on making a one seat ride to midtown from the eastern division, the 2nd Ave route makes the most sense."
I don't really know if the J/Z option would work well... Especially b/t 60th and 34th Sts. One reason, because the J/Z serves a very different clientele from the people living and working in this area. But just maybe enough passengers heading to upper manhattan/bronx from Brooklyn will justify this routing.
N Bwy
I don't really know if the J/Z option would work well... Especially b/t 60th and 34th Sts. One reason, because the J/Z serves a very different clientele from the people living and working in this area.
More than half of the J/Z riders transfer to lines serving this part of Manhattan anyway. If you're saying that 2nd Ave riders wouldn't want to share their new subway with the minorities of Brooklyn ....
Of course there's demand for going between the Eastern Division and 2nd Ave, just not enough to justify 12+ tph. Almost every line serves either very heavily built up residential areas or large areas of very densely built up office buildings, and most lines do both.
This proposed train serves less dense residential areas and less dense office areas.
The only trains that do this are the G (and look how many riders it has) and the L (which only works because it connects to every single trunk line in Manhattan).
Allright, then the M could run up 2nd Ave, the J/Z to Broad St, and the K remains the same. This provides 8 TPH on the 2nd Ave line from Broadway Bklyn.
As planned now, if it's a two track line, there will be no service south of 63rd going anywhere but either down Water Street to Whitehall or through the Nassau Loop, unless a third track for short runs (a la Whitehall on the BMT) is built. That's because with only two tracks, once you add the Q train coming over from 57th-7th to hook up with the new Second Ave. line, you run out of track capacity for any other line, unless you cut back on the Q service and opt for very minimal service south of Delancey compaired with the money that would be spent to build the thing.
The only way they could shoehorn the M train -- or any other line using the Willie B and Second Avenue -- in there is if it's uptown terminal is 54th-57th Sts, since the primary Second Ave. service south of 63rd St. has to be one that reaches the financial district. If it doesn't, there's no point in the MTA even bothering to build the line in the first place.
Well said. I don't understand the fairly strong sentiment in this thread for a train that goes 2nd Ave to Brooklyn without ever reaching the financial district.
Because there's more to Manhattan that what's below Chambers St. Plenty of Brooklyn riders would desire midtown service along 2nd Ave.
All well and good, but plenty of East Side riders would liker service to the financial district other than the sardine cans on the Lex.
I'm not saying you can't have a serivce to Brooklyn via Second Ave. and the Willie B, just that you can't have one that goes north of 57th St. and Second Ave. under a two-track configuration, because space has to be available north of there for the 63rd St. connection to come over. However, if the MTA did have the option of two lines south of 57th, odds are one would run the length of the island via Water Street and terminate at Whitehall, while the other would run via the Nassau Loop from 57th-2nd possibly to Bay Parkway via West End service, with the M service to south Brooklyn eliminated entirely.
All well and good, but plenty of East Side riders would liker service to the financial district other than the sardine cans on the Lex.
My plan leaves on of the Nassau St. lines as it is now, so downtown riders can easily use the unaltered route. The "K" route in my plan runs the entire length on 2nd Ave to Broad St. and into Bklyn. Everyone wins.
All well and good, but plenty of East Side riders would liker service to the financial district other than the sardine cans on the Lex.
My plan leaves one of the Nassau St. lines as it is now, so downtown riders can easily use the unaltered route. The "K" route in my plan runs the entire length on 2nd Ave to Broad St. and into Bklyn. Everyone wins.
That would even allow for WB riders to have an across the platform switch to the 2nd Ave line, with let's say the second Ave trains running on the "express" tracks of the Nassau line and the J on the "Local" tracks. The M may have to be terminated at Chambers St, with the 2nd Ave coming in also. Fulton and Broad are only two tracks, but with the M ending before it turns to two tracks,it should not be a problem. Could the M remain also? I don't know if 3 routes would work after the Nassau line turns to two tracks.
As I understand the 2nd Av Line was originally intented to extend to the Bronx to take over the original NYW&B alignment. The current plan would terminate at 125 and Lex. A combination of these plans and an extension of the 125 St branch to, say, Broadway would allow the following service pattern:
J/Z : 125/Broadway - 2nd Av - WB - Jamaica
M : Bay Parkway - Montague - WB - Metropolitan
T : Dyre - 2nd Av - South Ferry(?)
Does anyone know how much is left of the NYW&B beyond Dyre?
Does anyone know how much is left of the NYW&B beyond Dyre?
In addition, how far did the line originally go after Dyre?
Your questions are answered right here on this site, in the New York, Westchester & Boston section.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mousee
If you're going to give the WB riders midtown service, sure some would like 2nd Ave. But 5 times as many would like 6th Ave., which would also then provide an easy walk to 7th Ave or 5th/Madison.
So rather than spend for track work to connect the WB to the 2nd Ave line, it would be far better to spend less money to connect the B train to the WB. Most of that track is already there in the form of the connection from the F to the WB; you just need that connection to serve the express as well as the local under Houston St.
If you're going to give the WB riders midtown service, sure some would like 2nd Ave. But 5 times as many would like 6th Ave., which would also then provide an easy walk to 7th Ave or 5th/Madison.
But that's impossible to do today. Neither Queens line can operate 480' cars, so no 6th Ave service can run over the Williamsburgh Bridge.
So rather than spend for track work to connect the WB to the 2nd Ave line, it would be far better to spend less money to connect the B train to the WB. Most of that track is already there in the form of the connection from the F to the WB; you just need that connection to serve the express as well as the local under Houston St.
You want 6th Ave service via the Manhattan Bridge only to consist of the D train? What serves the West End line if the B runs over the Willy Bridge? Again, not too practical.
"You want 6th Ave service via the Manhattan Bridge only to consist of the D train? What serves the West End line if the B runs over the Willy Bridge? Again, not too practical."
To repeat a previous posting, I was suggesting B over the WB weekdays only. B trains can be 480'.
The F and V cover the Culver and West End (via bridge) Lines. Additional West End service is provided via the Montague tunnel as well.
To repeat a previous posting, I was suggesting B over the WB weekdays only. B trains can be 480'
That would be a nice idea actually. The only problem I see is that the B would have to become a 6Ave local because only the local tracks connect to Essex Street.
As I've said twice, with just a little track work (compared to building a 2nd Ave subway), you could connect the 6th Ave express track just east of Bway Lafayette with the Chrystie St crossover to the WB without interfering with the F/V Rutgers traffic.
The F and V cover the Culver and West End (via bridge) Lines. Additional West End service is provided via the Montague tunnel as well.
This short changes Culver riders by precluding the restoration of express service between Jay & Church. I don't think routing the B to the eastern division is worth all this trouble and expense.
We're talking 10-15 years in the future anyway. The main point is that there is a way to rearrange service to get 2nd Ave trains onto the Nassau St line if that's what's needed. By then there might be more 6th Ave trains or other rearrangements in service as well.
I don't think routing the 2nd Ave. line down thru Nassau St is worth the trouble anyway, especially if there will be a cross-platform transfer at Grand St. between the B/D. Nobody will use the 2nd Ave line to get into midtown....too slow.
A well built locals-only line doesn't have to be slow.
Consider the 8th Ave line. I jut did a ride in rush hour from 81st St to Chambers in 16 minutes (8 stops: switched to the A at 59th).
If you don't have sharp curves or excessively crowded stations you can move pretty fast even in a local or near-local like the A below 59th St.
True, but the trains will creep through Montague St. and up Nassau. Lots of curves, junctions and a guaranteed slow trip. Taking the B/D to Grand for the 2nd Ave line will be much quicker.
Agreed. Somehow I was thinking the message referred to using the 2nd Ave line to get from downtown to midtown.
You've piqued my curiosity. Based on the TA's posted schedules (including old ones for the D, 1/9, and 2), here are the approximate local-express differentials:
IRT
7th Avenue (Chambers-96): 8 minutes (12 stops)
Lex (BB-125): 9 (14)
White Plains (149-E180): 3 (7)
Pelham (3Av-E177): 6 (9)
Flushing (QbP-Main): 7 (10)
Brooklyn (Nevins-Utica): 3 (5)
1/9 (137-242 skip-stop): 2 (3-4)
BMT
Broadway (Canal-57): 3 (5)
Broadway-Brooklyn (Marcy-Myrtle): 4 (3)
4th Avenue (Pacific-59): 4 (7)
Brighton (PP-BB): 7 (8)
Astoria (QbP-Ditmars): 2 (4)
Manhattan Bridge (Canal-DeKalb): 6 (5)
J/Z (Myrtle-Sutphin skip-stop): 5 (14)
IND
8th Avenue (Canal-59): 2 (3)
6th Avenue (W4-34): 1 (2)
Queens (QP-71): 6 (10)
Queens (71-UT): 1 (1)
Fulton (Hoyt-Euclid): 4 (9)
CPW (59-145): 3 (8)
Concourse (145-BfB): 4 (6)
Surprising?
Yes. All of them are (except maybe the A between 59th and Canal and the E between Union Tpke and 71 Ave).
Yes, it is suprising, but not by too much. Some express runs don't save that much time over what the local does.
I've privately thought that some express stations I've ridden thru in my life should be demoted to locals during rush hour:
WestSide IRT, 96th 14th
EastSide IRT, 86th St.
B'klyn 4Av, 36th.
Queens IND, 71st.
Fulton IND, Nostrand.
Brighton: Church.
If transfers were better at Canal, I'd also think of demoting the Broadway BMT Herald Sq and Times Sq stations.
"I've privately thought that some express stations I've ridden thru in my life should be demoted to locals during rush hour:
WestSide IRT, 96th 14th
EastSide IRT, 86th St.
B'klyn 4Av, 36th.
Queens IND, 71st.
Fulton IND, Nostrand.
Brighton: Church."
I'm amazed you haven't started a riot with this posting. Maybe everybody's hard at work.
Two of these station at least have extremely heavy demand right now.
- W 96th is full of people who want to switch from the local to the express to save a few minutes getting to midtown.
- At E 86th, both local and express platforms are packed. People will fall off the edge if you don't give them an express platform to wait on too.
W 14th, I admit, could be a local station. There is a fair amount of transferring to the L, but not really heavy volumes. And most of those fols are just coming from midtown and could just as well take a local.
I was being provocative, particularly with 86/Lex and 71st in Queens. :-)
14th/7th Av and Nostrand/Fulton are the most serious candidates for demotion, with 36th/4thAv being third. With 96th/B'way, I concede this would exacerbate congestion at 72nd. And if not 71st, then Union Turnpike.
If they essentially rebuilt Canal St to make transfers very easy, and added a Lex express stop (demoting BB to local), then all the 14th St. stations could be local. And if the B'way BMT local and express tracks could be switched such that the express tracks went all the way downtown, then some more demotions could occur.
The time saved on each rush hour run would probably not be that much tho', but it might permit one or two extra tph on the affected lines, and *that* would justify it. And the politics of it would be intense.
Generally, bypassing a station doesn't increase capacity on the line one bit. Expresses don't have greater capacity than locals. Besides, what good is an extra 2 tph if many passengers now have to wait twice as long for a train that will stop for them?
Are you crazy? Let's think about what happens if an express run is modified to bypass additional stations. The express becomes more attractive to those who don't use those stations. The local becomes more attractive (necessary, in fact) to those who do. Express stations become more crowded, since those needing to transfer from express to local now have fewer stations available. Crowding issues aside, those bound for express stops save a few seconds, those bound for former express stops lose a few minutes, and those bound for local stops also lose some time if they could have taken the express part of the way.
Let's look at your examples, one by one:
WestSide IRT, 96th 14th
If expresses didn't stop at 96, most of the 96 crowd would be transplanted to 72. The narrow platforms are 72 have trouble handling their own crowds as it is -- they certainly couldn't handle the combined crowds. They simply wouldn't fit.
The local stations around there are very busy and the locals are very crowded. Eliminating an express stop would only force more people onto the overcrowded locals. Local service is already insufficient.
14 is a transfer point to the L and F/V. It's the only transfer point on the line to the L and F/V. Why you'd have expresses bypass the transfer is beyond me.
EastSide IRT, 86th St.
Very funny. Do you want the locals to explode?
B'klyn 4Av, 36th.
Last transfer between the M/W and N/R. Again, why?
Queens IND, 71st.
Most of the ridership in Queens comes from the outer reaches of the line. The express tracks are already at capacity. Making the express even more popular is an unwise move.
Fulton IND, Nostrand.
A possibility.
Brighton: Church.
Church lags barely behind Kings Highway, the busiest express station on the line. See the numbers.
But I think you missed my point: An express is only slightly faster than a local. No matter what you do, that won't change. Most of the time spent on a train is in motion, even on the local. Rather than trying to move trains fast, we should try to move people efficiently.
Not surprising in this age of timers. I don't have any proof, but I'm convinced these numbers used to be larger.
My idea neglected any thought of Broadway service north of 63rd. St. on the 2nd Ave line. But if the connection to 63rd. St. is fully functional, an equal number of trains from lower 2nd Ave would be diverted to Queens via 63rd. St.
While it would negate the need for a center track terminal station at 57th St., a routing out to Queens via 63rd and Second Ave. has a problem right now -- no track space east of Queensbridge, unless the MTA builds that super-express route or routes the V down Second Avenue.
Meanwhile, I'm sure one line will have to run the length of Second Ave., so under a two-track system that would leave the line either coming in via the Willie B or the one coming in from DeKalb via either the Nassau Loop or the Manny B (though it's hard to see why the MTA would want to connect up the bridge to the Second Ave. line given all the recent problems) to be the route that would go to Queens.
A four track line would solve all these routing problems (except for where to go after Queensbridge), but given the projected costs for a two-track line, the city will be lucky if only two tracks are running 20 years from now.
"While it would negate the need for a center track terminal station at 57th St., a routing out to Queens via 63rd and Second Ave. has a problem right now -- no track space east of Queensbridge, unless the MTA builds that super-express route or routes the V down Second Avenue."
There is a solution: split the F into 2 sections: half go 6th Ave to Queens Blvd via 63rd St, half go lower 2nd Ave to QB via 63rd St. This also would reduce the current demand for E and V service from QB to E 53rd St.
This is just one possibility; there are many others, such as running the V from QB via 63rd to 2nd Ave, etc.
Splitting the F would cause mass confusion. They would have to call it some other letter. But then F service would be drastically reduced.
"Splitting the F would cause mass confusion. They would have to call it some other letter. But then F service would be drastically reduced."
Of course you'd use another letter.
F service wouldn't necessarily be so drastically reduced. You'd rearrange E, F, V, R, and the new 2nd Ave service in some kind of equitable way.
Maybe instead of 15 F, 15 E, 10 R, 10 V, you'd have 10 F, 12 E, 10 R, 10 V, and 8 2nd Ave.
I don't think you have to split the F. If the proposed 54th-57th St. station on Second Ave. is connected up with the IND Lexington Ave. station at 53rd St., then V train riders would still have that station, though slightly further to the northeast. That would leave Fifth Ave., 23rd-Ely and Queens Plaza that would see service reductions from routing the V through 63rd St. along with the F. And if the V went to the financial district, either via Chatham Square/Water Street or through the Nassau Loop, it would probably take some of the E train passengers who go down to Chambers each day, since the distance between the two isn't that great (especially the Nassau St. routing) and going via Second Ave. would be a much more direct route than going all the way across to Eighth Ave.
"Of course there's demand for going between the Eastern Division and 2nd Ave, just not enough to justify 12+ tph. Almost every line serves either very heavily built up residential areas or large areas of very densely built up office buildings, and most lines do both."
Where did you get 12 tph from? And are you specifically talking about the J/Z and proposed K lines? Your right, it does look like quite a bit of service for 2nd Avenue. But the J and Z really runs like one line so I don't really understand your point.. Please help me, thanks!
N Broadway Line
I was commenting on a specific proposal that called for running all J and Z trains between the Jamaica and upper 2nd Ave (go up about 8 messages on this thread). I believe that's about 12 tph.
" If you're saying that 2nd Ave riders wouldn't want to share their new subway with the minorities of Brooklyn ...."
Stop misreading what I wrote earlier.. besides, the subways is not own by a particular neighborhood, but by the riding public. With that said, to clarify what I was saying, since you missed it, what I was saying, was, this particular routing might not be popular with the majority of passengers currently using the J/Z lines in Brooklyn. Particularly in the midtown area where a mixture of residential and commericial properties exist. However, the uptown routing might justify the J/Z being there.
Again... this has nothing to do with whether individuals want to share a subway car with minorities, since the line will be dead ending at a very person of color neighborhood (125th Street). I just hate when people make a racial issue out of something when there's no need to.
N Broadway Line
J/Z 125th St to Jamaica Center via 2nd Ave & Broadway Bklyn, 24/7
It sounds like there would be a huge amount of transfers at 2nd Ave/Houston to the F. Not many work commuters would go up 2nd Ave from Jamaica.
M Metropolitan Ave to Broad St, 6 AM to 9 PM
Would the M do the shuttle-thing from Metropolitan to Myrtle at other times?
It sounds like there would be a huge amount of transfers at 2nd Ave/Houston to the F. Not many work commuters would go up 2nd Ave from Jamaica.
Then why bother connecting any 2nd Ave line to Nassau St for access to Brooklyn if nobody is going to use it? Might as well use the Water St. route and terminate it at Whitehall St.
2nd Ave is a short walk from Lexington. We all know how crowded this line is.
I agree Chris, but I go futher by saying that the racial demographics are different than the area the "new" propose line will serve. And I don't expect a whole flood of people are going to go to upper manhattan from Brooklyn. It just not going to happen.
The A is the same way. Most people coming from harlem end their trip in the downtown area. And most people coming from downtown end their trip in Brooklyn. Very few people coming from uptown is going to end their trip in Brooklyn.
The J is even more different than the A riding public, because of where the line goes.
N Bwy
No, but plenty of J/Z riders want to go to Grand Central, 53/3rd Ave, etc. The 2nd Ave routing gives these people an alternate route within a very close proximity of the overcrowded 4/5/6 lines they aleready are using.
"No, but plenty of J/Z riders want to go to Grand Central, 53/3rd Ave, etc. The 2nd Ave routing gives these people an alternate route within a very close proximity of the overcrowded 4/5/6 lines they aleready are using."
I see your point in this post.. Lets hope that this plan works.
N Broadway Line
Then why bother connecting any 2nd Ave line to Nassau St for access to Brooklyn if nobody is going to use it?
It's the same as any line connecting to Brooklyn. Alot of the lines running from the Bronx or Uptown, through midtown, to Brooklyn would work the same as the 2Av to Brooklyn. Most morning routes pick up their passengers at the beginning of their run (Bronx/Uptown), loose them along their treck through Manhattan, and end in Brooklyn. Then they pick up their new passengers, head to Manhattan, loose passengers, and end where they started. Vise-versa for the evening.
So, The same would happen with the 2Ave route. That is why it is important to connect to Brooklyn routes.
2nd Av service to/from B'lyn via Broad St would be very popular. But a cross-platform transfer at Grand St. is just as good for most people, and in fact, better, in that routing the 2nd Av via Nassau St would preclude such a transfer at Grand; to state it simply, more people have access to 2nd Ave with a Grand St. transfer than they would with a direct train to Brooklyn.
Not if the train takes the place of the "M" in brooklyn.
Grand St. was designed for full interoperability with 2nd. Av. So if the Water St. line is built, you can have one route that goes to Whitehall, and another that switches over to the Manhattan Bridge tracks to Brooklyn. This would be the third line over the north side (like the Q was until last summer). (You would have needed these two lines anyway, because one would go to 125th, and the other to Queens. And don't forget the Bway. line that will also be extended to 125th via 63rd. St.)
"J/Z 125th St to Jamaica Center via 2nd Ave & Broadway Bklyn, 24/7"
hmmmmmm.. maybe, but how many people will use it? Remember, it does not really offer midtown access.
"K 125th St to 9th Ave (middays), Bay Parkway (rush hours) or Broad St. (all other times)."
Possible...
N Bwy
I like this idea... now M trains don't have to be 8 cars anymore... they can be a full 600' with the ability to use 75-footers.
Isn't the fact that Metro is the M trains terminal make it an "M" train? Anything running from "Bay Pkwy" would not be an "M" train If it runs from Bay Pkwy to 6th Ave (which I don't think the current Chrystie St connection allows physically) it wouldn't be an M it would be some other letter.
No, the fact that NYC Transit calls it the "M" train makes it the "M" train. If NYCT decided that starting Monday, it would be called "YY," that's what it would be called.
David
It doesn't matter where it goes, it can be called whatever the MTA wants. I think it was a clever coincidence that someone decided to name the route to Metropolitan/Middle Village as the M.
Yeah and the Jamaica..... "J"
I like this idea... now M trains don't have to be 8 cars anymore... they can be a full 600' with the ability to use 75-footers.
Is that true, or are the Myrtle Ave stations 450'?
All I know currently is, from looking at all the sites out there:
a) The 2nd Ave connects to the 63rd St Tube....Lex Av on the 63 was designed with the connection in mind, kinda like Mong Kok on the Hong Kong subway system.
b) Something about a connection to the Nassau Street Line...which makes it all that much interesting...IMO a Water Street line to Whitehall wouldn't make much sense, with it deadending at the tip of the island inst. of going to Brooklyn.
I just can't see your plan very well...Maybe it's me (Haven't been to NY since '96, sorry...), but I think a whole new color is probably likely for the new 2nd Ave...And if it could connect to the Willy B as per plan, would a Co-op City to Canarsie train be profitable?
Co-Op City --> 125 St ---> Willy B ---> ENY ---> Canarsie
Or this...
Co-Op City ---> 125 St ---> 6th Ave ---> Grand Street ---> Manhattan Bridge ---> Brighton Line ---> Coney Island.
In that case:
- Q runs on Culver.
- V supplants B on the West End, cutting M back to Chambers/Broad/Myrtle
- F supplants R on the Sea Beach
- D and the -- train runs on Brighton.
Kinda like that...would that all work? Technically, I know it would. But logistically and financially, would it?
I know it may not make too much sense...don't blame me for trying.
Just my 2 cents...
-J!
I think a whole new color is probably likely for the new 2nd Ave...And if it could connect to the Willy B as per plan, would a Co-op City to Canarsie train be profitable?
Unfortunately, it looks like the 2nd Ave line is going to terminate at 125th St during the first phase of the project. Then, if service to the Bronx is warranted, even though the need already exists, then they might extend it in the next phase. When that would be, who knows?
Yes, they could give it another color, but what I am trying to do is extend the usefulness of a few of the lines (J/M/Z & V) while trying to find a fairly cheap alternative to Brooklyn since options exist. Why waste an opportunity that ends at Whitehall St.? It doesn't look like the 2nd Ave line will be highly used if it just goes up and down 2nd Ave. in Manhattan it needs to provide other options.
Yes there is a track connection tor the 63rd St. line, but there are no plans for a walking transfer to 63/Lex from the 2nd Ave trunk line.
Believe it or not, this was a thread before, though it encompassed only existing trackage...
The C train would become underused under that system. Until recently, most C passengers coming from CPW were heading to points south of midtown, While B passengers are going to midtown. After the 1/2/3 re-alignment though, the C train is taking more passengers than before (plus, the Chambers/WTC stop gets less riders...). But, the 1/9 will be back to normal before any 2nd av subway, and C ridership will probably drop back down...
I like the idea of running the Second Avenue into the Nassau Loop. To free up capacity, one could combine the J/Z and the V, and run the J/Z up 6th Avenue. This is possible using the currently unused part of the Chrystie Street connection. BMT Broadway riders heading for Downtown would use the M; those heading uptown would use the J/Z/V.
Connecting the V to the J/Z has been shot down numerous times in the last week. V needs to have 10 cars, J/Z can only handle 8. Maybe C or B instead, but not V.
(Connecting the V to the J/Z has been shot down numerous times in the last week. V needs to have 10 cars, J/Z can only handle 8. Maybe C or B instead, but not V.)
The V has 10 trains per hour at rush hour, the equivalent of 100 60 foot cars. The J/Z has 12 trains per hour at rush hour. Twelve times 8 is 96. Not much difference there. And nothing stops you from running one more J train.
What generates the 8 car limits, ridership or platform length? Do platforms limit the Jamaica line to 480 foot trains?
Platforms.
You can't add more trains to the Queens Blvd local tracks, because you can't turn around more trains at Continental.
You can send them into the Jamaica yards, but that does not make for speedy express trains.
The Queensborough line is totally filled.
A T/O from TA told me PATH is hiring for Conductors and Switchmen. they prefer 2 years RR experience. that is not a requirement. I am buying the Chief. So if i hear anything i will let you guys know. I will apply as soon as i find out the job address. i have a friend who is a PATH engineer. so he tells me i should go for it.
And did they tell you what they pay?
BTW It's resume so don't bet on it being in the Chief
NYC MTA (we're State employees) is administered by NYC DCAS and they post requirements AND salaries. MTA North, LIRR and PATH just post 'send us your requirements' along with your resume. I for one would like to know the salary ranges between the agencies for T/O, C/R, signal maintainer, car inspector, electronics equipment maintainer and radio repairman mechanic. What I'd expect is that WE ALL are doing a little better with OUR employer. CI Peter
T/O's and C/R's do much better with LIRR, didn't we have this discussion?
LIRR is union so the pay is fixed.
No, we didn't at least as far as salaries. I'd like to know if tecchie jobs pay well...at least the TA has given me a really great deal of experience on new tech beyond most new CIs to want to stay where I'm at...and I do. CI Peter
Electricians start at 36K and max at 52K
F it. I started at 49K, make more than most TA 'engineers.' CI Peter
I got mine yesterday, the century logo thing on it has the Twin Towers... Will they ever remove it?
What's a transit member card?
I left out the word museum, sorry.
OK...do I have to join the museum OR just play along with my MTA card when it is re opened??? I truly doubt the twin towers will ever be removed from the logos....it is present on the newest CED ones. CI Peter
I got mine yesterday, the century logo thing on it has the Twin Towers... Will they ever remove it?
My apologies if these are in this site's FAQ...
I plan to do an upcoming page in
www.forgotten-ny.com
about the ancient Honeywell Street Bridge, which is abt to be torn down and rebuilt (as in the 39th St., originally Harold Avenue Bridge).
I need to know when Sunnyside Yards opened; I have a map from the very early 1900s which shows the yards and the two bridges in place.
Also: since the original name of 39th Street is Harold Avenue, does the LIRR Harold have anything to do with that?
And, pressing my luck, is there a list of all LIRR dispatch towers, their names, and derivations of same?
Thx.
According to Seyfried: "The Pennsylvania Railroad came out with its long-awaited announcement of the opening of the Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard together as of November 27th [1910], the day the winter train schedule went into effect." The first trains (they were LIRR trains since the PRR portion of Penn Station had not yet been completed) actually left Penn Station on September 8, 1910.
Kevin, there's a lot more information about Sunnyside Yard in Volume 7 of Seyfried's "the Long Island Rail Road - A Comprehensive History".
I also have an special insert from the September 8, 1910 Brooklyn Eagle devoted to Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard. Send me an email if you want to use Vol. 7 and/or the Eagle. Here's a picture of a portion of that insert - Note that the Honeywell St. Bridge is mentioned in the last column:
Thanks Bob, I could definitely use that entire Eagle article if you have it, as well as a xerox of the Seyfried pages on Sunnyside...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I wouldn't mind reading the rest of that B'lyn Eagle article. It looks as if part of Newtown Creek was filled with the spoil from the excavation. I wonder if Dutch Kills Creek still exists (there's a street in the area with that name).
>>>I wonder if Dutch Kills Creek still exists (there's a street in the area with that name). <<<
Yes there is still both a Dutch Kills and an English Kills.
Now if anybody knows where the Whale Creek Canal is they get the Golden Sombrero.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Brooklyn, ward 17 near Newtown creek, enumeration district boundaries #375 and #376 (tract Q7) ... and shouldn't that be an URBAN sombrero?
KEVIN----I love your site....keep up the excellent work!!!!!!!!!
Also: since the original name of 39th Street is Harold Avenue, does the LIRR Harold have anything to do with that?
Yes, if you look hard enough with an older map in hand, you'll find some others too. (It's a fun exercise!)
And, pressing my luck, is there a list of all LIRR dispatch towers, their names, and derivations of same?
I'm sure that someone will be able to point you to a book or two that has a more complete (and historically thorough) list, but you can get a start at http://www.lirrhistory.com/towers.html.
Mark
I thought 39th Street was Beebe Avenue. I guess it changed to Harold Ave. across the railyard?
Beebe Avenue is now 39th Avenue, not Street. Wake up, Pete.
Beebe Ave was the old name for 39 AVENUE. Understandable mistake considering the street and avenue numbers are close.
see message to myself: Duh :O)
I did.
I also said you made a common mistake.
The LIRR is one of the last bastions of interlocking towers in the United States with 14 operating towers. The open towers are as follows:
HAROLD, Sunnyside, NY, named for Harold Ave, new structure built 1980's.
JAY, Jamacia, west throat
HALL, Jamacia, east throat, reason for name unknown.
QUEENS, Queens Village NY, junction of Belmont Park branch and Hempstead Line.
VALLEY, Valley Stream NY, junction of Far Rock Line and Long Beach Line.
DIVIDE, Hicksville NY, junction of Port Jeff Line, new (1970's+) instalation, name from the shape of the junction.
NASSAU, Mineola NY, junction of Oyster Bay Line, named for Nassau county.
BABYLON, Babylon NY, termius of electric service
BROOK, Brooklyn NY, Flatbush Ave. terminal, underground tower.
DUNTON, Jamacia, engine house and coach yard
PD, Pachogue NY, aka "The Leaning Tower of PD" for obvious reasons, name never converted from old two letter telegraph codes.
LEAD, Island Park NY, controls draw bridge over intercostal waterway on Long Beach Line.
VAN, Brooklyn NY, Flatbush Avenue tunnel approach, junction, Vanderbilt Avenue Yard, two tricks on weekdays only
EAST NEW YORK, East New York NY, open as needed, controls crossover at station.
Please note that the names of interlocking towers and the interlockings they control appear in CAPITOL LETTERS, boldface according to taste. Yesterday I took pictures of many of the towers mentioned and if you would like some scans of them feel free to ask. It'll be a few weeks for them to be devoloped though.
If you are going to concentrate on interlocking towers solely within the city limits the list is as follows. An 'a' denotes active.
JAY(a)
HALL(a)
DUNTON(a)
VAN(a)
BROOK(a)
EAST NEW YORK(a)
HAROLD(a)
F, Sunnyside
R(a), Sunnyside Yard
Q(a), Sunnyside Yard
A, underground tower, Penn Station, west end of platform 5 and 7
C, underground tower, Penn Station, east end of platform 10, LIAR tunnel
JO, underground tower, Penn Station, east end of platform 6, Amtrak tunnel
OAK aka SS3, Oak Point Yard, Bronx, Amtrak Hell Gate Line
MO, Mott Haven, ex-NYC, jct of MNRR Hudson and Harlem Lines.
WOODLAWN, Woodlawn, jct of MNRR Harlem and New Haven Lines
PELLHAM BAY, bridge cabin, possibly active, Amtrak Hell Gate Line
These are the ones I know about. The tower at the throat of the MNRR park ave tunnel was recently demolished so get out and see them quick. former NYC towers might also exist all along the MNRR Hudson line at FH, GLEENWOOD, CP-12
HALL, Jamacia, east throat, reason for name unknown.
The former Union Hall station, and present-day Union Hall street.
Mark
To update the list of towers:
Van no longer exist. Its operations have been moved to Brook and renamed Brook 2. VD yard is controlled remotely by Brook Tower.
God damn. Another tower bittes the dust. I'll tell Jon Roma.
Sorry this isn't more timely, but I just got the info myself.
-Hank
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-15/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-138289.asp
Stephen Dobrow, 58,
Transit Activist, Dies
Stephen Dobrow, a longtime transportation activist
known for campaigning to bring the city unlimited-ride
transit passes, died Sunday. He was 58.
For more than three decades, Dobrow, a professor of electrical
engineering at Fairleigh Dickinson University in New Jersey,
used his encyclopedic knowledge of the city's transportation
system to advocate for better subway and bus service.
Dobrow lived his whole life in Queens and was a founding
member of the New York City Transit Riders Council. For more
than 30 years, he served as president of the Committee for
Better Transit, a volunteer transportation watchdog group.
"He was the dean of the transit riders community," said activist
Gene Russianoff, staff attorney for the Straphangers Campaign.
"In my view, a lot of his advocacy is why things are better. His
work benefited millions of riders."
Dobrow is survived by his mother, Sylvia, and siblings Sidney
and Cynthia.
A funeral will be held at 10 a.m. today at the Garlick Funeral
Home, 114-03 Queens Blvd. (at 76th Road) in Forest Hills.
It sounds like a hell of a loss to all railfans.
Ok... its confirmed, im coming to nyc for a conference for 10 days in mid-feb...
FINALLY AFTER 1 YEAR I CAN RIDE THE NYC SUBWAY... MARTA IS NO OPTION! :)
I need some ideas on things to do... any railfan trips planned? any good ideas for touristy type stuff? I will be staying near times square..
need ideas for mid-day and evening..
THANK YOU :)
Allen
If you're staying near Times Square you have a multitude of options..here are some suggestions....I'm sure other subtalkers will have even better suggestions. First of all buy an unliminted Metrocard ($4 per day or $17 per seven day period) for use on all NYC subways and buses. Here are two suggestions:
(1)Take #1 from Times Square to 242nd St. You will see the original 1904 subway to 145th St, including the neat elevated stretch at 125th. From 157th through 191st is a very deep tunnel. Get off at 168th, look around briefly, and even take the elevator up to the A train level. Back on the #1 go to 242nd - you will see the unusual Dyckman Street Station, literally on one side of a small mountain, and the unusual lift bridge between 215th and 225th.
At 242nd go downstairs (a Burger King and a couple of coffee shops right there if you need refreshments or a restroom). Take Bx9 bus southbound on Broadway marked "West Farms" (New Flyer Artics cover this route). After going up the steep hill on Kingsbridge Road get off at Jerome Ave. Take the #4 downtown back to Manhattan - but you will get a good look at the Bronx before you go back into the tunnel after passing Yankee Stadium at 161st. Stay on the #4 to Atlantic Ave. Brooklyn - get off and have a quick look at the LIRR terminal adjacent, and then get on the Q train back to Manhattan, going over the Manhattan Bridge.
(2) Walk to 33d St and Broadway (Herald Sq). Take PATH train to Newark, via Journal Square - a really neat trip, a railfan's delight with many bridges and high speed outdoor running after Journal Square. Get off at Newark Penn Station and do a round trip on the NJ Transit Newark City Subway. Return to Manhattan on PATH or take NJ Transit back to Penn Station NY. Your Metrocard will not work on this trip, though.
I'll try to add some addtional iteneraries as I think of them.
Andys suggestion of the Broadway (#1) and Path (Newark City Subway/HBLR) trips are good ones, I'll add:
- #7 Flushing line, catch a Red Bird Express (AM in bound, PM out bound).
- G/F inbound over the Gonanus Cannal is a great photo op
- Bright Express in a Slant 40 is a treat, either before or after a light lunch at Coney Island
- L outbound, you'll enjoy the ride under the East River. I would suggest you get off at Broadway Junction to take another line (J/Z to Jamaica, A back to Manhattan)
- Take the trains to Wall Street, Grenich Village, China Town, Times Sq, South Ferry (the ferry to SI is free & a nice ride if you have the time to kill), Radio City Music Hall, St. Patrick's Church, Rockefeller Center, South Street Seaport, Fulton Fish Market, Ground Zero ...
On the Boradway line if you stop at 116th you can visit: Columbia University, Grant's Tomb, North Church, & at 110th (112th & Broadway) is Tom's Resturant (from the Signfield show), they have a minimun now so you need to buy more then just a cup of coffee to sit down, but the food is good & prices are not too bad. St. John the unfinished is just East of the place.
Well, that ought to keep you busy ! Enjoy ... maybe Robert (T/O) will send you a "Paint the Town Red, White & Blue" Metrocard to use ?
Mr rt__:^)
Isn't Grant's Tomb further north, say, around 191 St?
Grant's tomb is around 122nd Street and Riverside Drive.
Correct, just across the street from North Church.
The West Side rail line to Albany goes under it (almost).
Mr rt__:^)
Have any idea who's buried there?....;-D
When you arrive, go to the Times Square Visitors Center on 7th Ave between 45th and 46th Streets - lots of brochures, discount coupons, etc to look through. Don't forget to pick yourself up some maps (subway and bus).
--Mark
Thanks everyone... i have lived in nyc all my life (moved to atlanta 4 yrs ago..) i just think this time i would like to do some touristy stuff and ride the areas of the subway i havent in the past
any railfan trips mid-feb??? :)
thanks
allen
There may be one Monday Jan 21st ... February, President's Day, Monday the 18th is a posibility.
The idea has only just now come off the end of my finger tips ...
anybody out there interested ... what lines should we do ?
Mr rt__:^)
I'd consider some circle trips. Take the Q over the bridge to Coney Island and come back on the W to 34th Street. Then take the F back to Coney Island. The Q, F, and W have elevated portions in Brooklyn. You can throw in the N but it terminates one stop short of Coney Island.
You should consider riding some of the city's buses. I suggest the M10 and one of the following (M1, M2, M3, M4, M5) along Central Park.
The M5 ride is scenic on Riverside Drive.
Let me know if you want more bus ideas.
Michael
Due to a sudden cancelation by American Pig, I would like to anounce a LIAR field trip tomorrow. The trip will start with my arrival on the 10:22 NJT train into Penn Station and will leave for Babylon. The current plan to to double back to Jamacia, then out to Ronkonkoma, back to Jamacia and finally finishing at Roundbush Terminal. If anyone is interested be under the Amtrak departure board at Pig Station at 10:22, displaying the sceret subtalk signal.
I won't be able to make it, but for curiousity's sake, what's the secret subtalk signal? Is there some sort of subtalk whistle or handshake I should learn for future reference?
Its a black S written on the back of the hand w/ magic marker.
Does it have to be magic marker?
I suppose you COULD scratch. :)
Does it really have to be in cursive? Cause I'm only supposed to carve printed letters into my skin--doctor's orders.
Any writing format it fine.
I just love your 24 hour notice of field trips.
Pigs cancled on short notice, what could I do?
What's "the sceret subtalk signal" [sic]. Does it involve setting light to one's own farts?
Why do you insist on calling it the LIAR. Its really not that bad. If this was 30 years ago when the LIRR was really bad (especially the ghost train-the 7:55 out of Babylon which was cancelled every day on the radio traffic reports) I could see it but I don't see anything really wrong with the railroad now. I stopped riding it for a while as a protest when they stopped the smoking cars but then I quit smoking so the subject became moot. The trains are pretty much on time now. The new tri-level equipment is great and the M7, new Jamaica Station Airtrain connection, and future Grand Central connections have to even make the LIAR LIRR better.
I must say though, I might change my opinion when I retire from the NYPD next year, lose my train pass, and actually have pay for my rides!!!
I must say though, I might change my opinion when I retire from the NYPD next year, lose my train pass, and actually have pay for my rides!!!
The fares are not that bad. Once the m7s arrive the ride will be ever better.
BTW: Why are you going to retire so early? If you want a part-time job in law enforcement, local colleges in your area might be hiring
security personal. Don't know about the pay but it might interfere with you receiving your pention since its also a state job.
Its part of an inside joke that I don't want to die.
What do you want, Jeff - he's from New Joisey!
What do I expect, you're from New Yauwk. Possibly also from Lon Guyland.
BTW, I heard some wonderful/colorful accents on my trip.
I come up with a new controversial acronym, and Jersey Mike gets the flack.
What about when I posted that link to porn.com in my going to vacation message?
would anyone have the current rolling stock assignments for each line. I would like to know. Thanks.
When politicos finally acknowledge that the system is a mover of working people to our great city is when you will see the major changes in lines. The system isn't a profit maker but a mover of commerce that enables business to work here. The biggest fans should not be us SubTalkers but big business that benefits the most from the 'almost rapid transit' of employees. CI Peter
Car assignments at The Joe Korner.
Even when a nickname is critical, there is a kind of affecttion to them, as in Hippo=R68. All the BMT "name" trains had unofficial titles: Green Hornet, Zephyr. I think even "Bluebird" was unofficial. (Official: Compartment Cars).
How about the R143. I was looking at a picture on the Joe Korner, and it reminded me of a feller who was at my garbage cans--a Raccoon! Somehow R142s don't strike me that way at all.
If not, how about "Lone Ranger." OK, these are pretty lame. Anybody got anything better? Something that would stick?
"Racoon" sounds good.
I'm kind of partial to the "raccoon" image myself. They really do look like they're wearing a mask.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course, the R142s have "masks" also, but they don't have the right "chubby cheeks." The R143s do.
Raccoons and Pandas.
avid
I vote coon. the silvery/gray stainless steel is similar enough to their fur.
My mother cam up with a perfect name for the R142/R143 cars: robot cars, since they seem to do everything automatically.
I like "Darth Vader."
That name's already in use. It refers to Grumman-Flxible Corp's bus from the early 1980's. That bus is still in use on certain NJ Transit routes; NYC discarded them some time ago.
The reason I think "Darth Vader" is a good nickname for the R-143 is not just because the black bonnet cover is shaped like his helmet, but also because the cars are much more automated than their predecessors, with more parts of the car "robotic," just like he was!
Darth Vader owns the phone company ... James Earl Jones *is* the voice of Verizon ... tell ya what though - I'll vote for that if you vote for the 142's being dubbed "Hindenbergs" ... :)
No doubt that some of the 142 haters are going to insist calling them "Titanics" because of their (still, but brief) shortcomings.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Heh. I'm rather ambivalent actually ... I didn't think much of the redbirds when they replaced the LoV's ... so I do understand some of the emotional attachments ... but the 142's *do* seem to be a bit lemonish ... sorta like FORDs ... then again, I remember when the 44's and 46's came on the railroad and it was pretty much the same story 30 years ago. They did eventually get them working after multiple GOH's. I'm sure the 142's will work out as well too - only a question of WHEN.
Is dat yer final answer?? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
How about Edsels?
Nah ... you're talking to someone who remembers the 44/46 debacles when THEY arrived ... it took a few years, but they eventually began working after much truckectomy and other rewirings. All the sophisticated nonsense got cut out and they started running. :)
>>>... you're talking to someone who remembers the 44/46 debacles when THEY arrived ...<<
Yeah I remember those times too (but admittedly only as a pax). It was awful!
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-46s had the bad Rockwell trucks, didn't they? Or did the R-44s also suffer from the same malady?
The R-44s had NYCT standard General Steel Industries (GSI) trucks.
David
I was thinking it was the 46's ... the 44's had problems of their own but I think it was the 46's with the bum trux ... the point being though that a LOT of carsets arrived and caused headaches, but eventually they were made to function ... just a matter of time and car shortages until they became "spongeworthy" ...
The R44 was an all around DOG, to coin the phrease David L. Gunn used.
The R46 was not as bad, the R46's problems stemmed mostly from those Rockwell trucks that began cracking soon after they were placed in service.
It's been said, and I can recall, that the problem with the R46's trucks were so bad, that some 100 or more R16's were taken out of storage and put back into service to fill in for the 46's that had to be taken out. The TA was wise to pursue a lawsuit against Rockwell and Pullman Standard.
Don't blame me. I worked the R1/9's and LOVED it. Heh. But EVENTUALLY, they got them working. The 142's seem to be following a similar path. They'll get them working soon ... at least the 143's seem to have done well. I personally inspected them and was pleased for what little THAT'S worth. :)
No blame at all. Lucky you had the chance to operate some fine rolling stock.
I don't think the 142's are nearly as bad as the 44s/46s, and the 143's are akin to the 62's, pretty much smooth sailing (or is my memory failing me in thinking in the mid 80's the 62's came on board with few, if any problems??)
Sure. Why not? The Hindenbergs. But I've already dubbed the Bombardier 142s "the refrigerators," since many are without decor, and the brightly lit, white plastic interior makes me think I'm riding in a Frostmaster! ;O)
Feh ... we'll just transfer that "refrigerator" monicker to the 142A's then ... they don't explode. But yeah, you've got a point - the Hindenberg *was* tastefully appointed with appurtanances. "Decor" does lack a bit in the 142's ... then again, you don't get rust stains on your clothes either. :)
Then there are the marimba-like door chimes. At least they're in tune.
The one thing that FLOORED me was bingbongs on the redbirds. Sacrilege! But then again, I'm your basic motorman type individual - I don't care about the geese cage, sounds, lights. I just care about whether it goes and whether it can be STOPPED. If it stops, all's right with the world even if it's a flatcar with a stand up front. :)
>>>The one thing that FLOORED me was bingbongs on the redbirds. <<<
HUH?
Peace,
ANDEE
*with a deep breathy voice* The Force is with these cars already. :-D
May the Force be with YOU.
Stuart, RLine86Man
well...... like a month back when they entered service i nicknamed them "the pirate" because of a missing cab window unlike the irt cars. whatever you guys wish to call it
How About "Popeye"?
"I'm Popeye the subway car (ding-dong)."
Today, I spoke to a supervisor at the movement desk about the foul up on the 2:42 p.m. train from Ronkonkoma to Penn on December 22. The inbound train from Penn was short turned to protect the 2:42 schedule. The inbound train was put on platform A while the passengers were on platform C. Passengers had to cross over to platform A to catch the train, pushing against the crowds getting off the inbound train.
A bad situation (unavailability of original equipment) was made worse by bringing the inbound train onto platform A instead of C. The supervisor investigated and found that the crew of the disabled train reported at 2:42, the scheduled departure time, that the train was in the yard and couldn't make the trip. If the dispatcher knew in advance that the equipment was disabled, (s)he would have brought the train on the main track (platform C).
The stop at Hillside couldn't be avoided even though the train was late because it's a scheduled stop.
Previous writers stated that the Flatbush connection wasn't lost at Jamaica even though it looks like it was in the public timetable.
The supervisor told me that when deciding to hold a connection, they look to see when the next connection is and make a decision whether to hold a train. In this case, it wasn't necessary.
The supervisor said the company is working on making better announcements to customers.
According to some posters, this was a waste of my time. I don't think so. It certainly beats just venting on this board. At least something might be done about the situation. He gave me his direct dial number and told me to skip public affairs and directly call him the next time I had a problem.
Michael
Undeterred in Washington, DC
P.S. The M-7s will arrive later this winter. There is no scheduled revenue service date.
Talk about a molehill becoming a mountain...I hope this is the last we hear about this mini-problem, and I hope that this is the worst problem any of us encounters in the year 2002.
Unfortunately, its a safe bet lirr riders will encounter more than the occasional headache consider the aging/new lemon combo of equipment in service.
Train 2021 was 29 minutes late getting to Penn Station this AM. It was stuck in the Eat River Tunnel for 26 minutes. The conductor could not get any information as to what was going on. Can you please call your friend at the movement bureau and find out what happened and ask that it not happen again.
Thanks
Steve
I've got a better idea. How about I give you his name and number and you call.
Michael
Defiant in Washington, DC
When the bilevels were introduced, most AM/PM runs on the Montauk tracks were done away with. But I believe there are still 1 or 2 runs daily. What are the departure times?
Just in case I happen to be in Jamaica or LIC on a weekday morning or afternoon...
Not like before with the ancient cars and stops at the non-stations, but I can use my imagination. (I did make the run before the 'stations' were closed, using my monthly, of course instead of paying the $4.50.)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Most of the trains no longer listed to LIC didn't go via Old Montauk. They went via Hunterpoint and Main Line.
I can't say for sure which trains now use old Montauk, but if no one else can tell you sure, a good way to to look at departure and arrival times of Hunterspoint and LIC trains at Jamaica.
I see that there are the following departures from LIC to Jamaica
Lv 454 Arr 516 (pm)
Lv 530 Arr 604 (pm)
There is an arrival at Jamaica at 604 from Hunterspoint, so that would be the 454 LIC departure via the Main Line. There is no 516 arrival at Jamaica form Hunterspoint, so the 454pm is Montauk Branch train.
Going To LIC in the morning, there are 709, 811 and 819 am depatures from Jamaica to LIC. The 709 and 819 make Hunterspoint, but the 811 does not. Therefore the 811 is your Montauk Branch train.
Elementary, my dear Watson
I have gone on the 4:54 just for the Montauk experience, and yup, it went!
Is there pretty much a guarantee that trains between LIC and Jamaica that don't stop at Hunterspoint run on the Montauk branch?
Do any Montauk trains run to Jamaica in the morning or to LIC in the afternoon?
Do any Montauk trains run during off-peak hours?
(Yes, I know, I can find answers to the second and third questions myself -- but as I'm already posting the first question, I might as well toss in the others in case you happen to know offhand.)
Yes, No and No. (Both no's reflect scheduled in-passenger service -- there could be some equipment moves that aren't shown in the schedule).
CG
Not like before with the ancient cars and stops at the non-stations, but I can use my imagination. (I did make the run before the 'stations' were closed, using my monthly, of course instead of paying the $4.50.)
The $4.50 fare is one of the reasons those intermediate stations never cought on. (Not to mention that most were total disasters like Fresh Pond.) I did spend the $4.50 a few times from Fresh Pond to Jamaica a few times just because it was convenient to what I was doing. Another problem with that line was that you had to arrange your schedule around the train because it ran so infrequently. The MTA did everything they could to make it totally inconvienient so they could eventually justify ending the local service. Anyone who remembers what Fresh Pond station looked like would also know any woman would be scared to death to wait for a train alone at that so called station. It's a shame it's gone and was never expanded because service on that line does serve a lot of areas not served by rail service.
Hello everyone, I was wondering, who here is a Philly railfan or lives in Philly? Just wondering, I live here in Philly and I dont think I see to many Philadelphians post in here.
John
Well, Jersey Mike apparently is down this way, in South Jersey (correct me if I'm wrong), and I moved from Bayside to Philly recently.
Shouldn't you change your handle to RonInPhilly?
My in-laws still live in Bayside, and I still have the keys.
Besides, I'm lazy. :0)
I went to College at Villanova and now live in Wilmington...close enough???
I live right accross the river in Haddonfield, NJ. MP 6.5 on the PRSL Main Line.
I live right in Center City Philadelphia. I use the Broad Street subway, usually the express or spur to get to school every day, and frequently ride other services, especially the el.
I live in South Jersey, a mile-and-a-half from the Lindenwold PATCO/NJT station.
I railfan in Philly from time to time, as evidenced by my photographs from recent railfan trips on Oct 3, Oct 19, Dec 20, and Dec 28, the latter with Isaac Shomer and Jersey Mike, who both chimed in earlier in the thread.
I have also railfanned Philly and environs less recently.
I obviously live in Philly. If anyone every wants to meet up to do railfanning. im always up for it. Email me and let me know. I would like to meet new railfans.
John
NwsRptr is also a Philly Railfan, who works the transit news beat when there's no breaking news, and lives in Center City...using the Subway Surface lines all the time
I live in Exton, which is 30 miles west of Philly. I would love to do some railfanning, but a recent medical situation with my wife has me
staying close to home. Perhaps , in 6 -9 months things will get better, if all goes well. Keep in touch with all the Philly guys by posting on this board.
Chuck Greene
Hello John
I'm from Philadelphia, too. I use the Market-Frankford line every day, and I'll soon be moving to West Philly where I'll be using the subway-surface trolleys on a regular basis. I also like railfanning on the Broad Street subway and the Route 100 trolley, and PATCO when possible.
There are a lot more Philadelphia people on this board than I had thought. I realized this about two months ago when I posted a message similar to yours, titled something like "SEPTA riders please raise your hands." If you can find that thread in the archives you'll see it got a huge response revealing many SEPTA surfers around here.
Mark
Hello Mark, nice to meet you. Where in Philly you live at now? I live in Frankford and work in Suburban Station. I ride the EL 2 X a day. wooohooo
I'm close to Oxford Circle. I connect to and from the MFL by bus.
Mark
Sounds like a Field Trip in the making. I see a "core group", that's all you need to start planning something.
Keep us posted up here in NYC, when the weather gets a little warmer a group of us would love to join you some Sat or Sun !
Mr rt__:^)
I live in NYC, but I grew up about 2 hours west of Philadelphia. I have railfanned in Philly occasionally, once with chuchubob (just missing Isaac Shomer on the BSS!). We did the R6 Norristown regional rail to route 100, half of the the MFL, PATCO, and the BSS one day. I planned to return to do the Media/Sharon Hill LR lines, Subway Surface lines, and more regional rail, but that hasn't happened yet. I've also ridden SEPTA's Peter Witt around West Philly with the Rockhill Trolley Museum. I've used Amtrak through Philly countless times, but I'm certainly not as schooled on the Pennsy Main Line as Jersey Mike. I have many pix, but I'm reconstructing my website at the moment. I'm up for a fantrip again soon too.
I live in Delaware County, PA., just a couple of miles from the Marcus Hook station on the R2 Regional Rail line. If any of you Philly railfans are looking for a railfan buddy or partner, feel free to drop me a line. I'm always looking for someone to accompany me when I railfan.
I'm from Philadelphia (West Mt.Airy)and i frequently use the Broad St Subway & the EL and Subway-Surface Trolley Lines occassionally.
I'm from the otherside of the 23...grew up in East Mt. Airy and still use the R7 Mt. Airy stop to go visit the parents. Living and working in Center City means I don't use SEPTA on a regular basis, other than the BSL to sporting events. In fact, in the last two months, I've ridden NYC's subways and DC's Metro more than local lines.
I used to live in Philly from about 1980 to 1991. I lived in Manayunk for a while, commuting to my station in center city on the R6 and the El. For a couple years i also lived up in Frankford, and took the El to the station i was working at the time, which was right under the el in northern kensington. Gotta love that El!!
There are more than you think (as you've already seen). I think I've established myself as a Phila resident and railfan/transit fan/user. Unfortunately I'm not close enough to ride the rails every day (I don't mind riding the bus but SEPTA seems to be pretty talented when it comes to screwing up a line) so I travel from the hills of Roxborough and Center City via bus route 27 every day. Every so often I find myself on the El, subway-surface, and/or R6 train in my travels also.
I grew up in South Phila, close enough to be able to choose between 2 trackless routes and 1 trolley route (in addition to a bus route) for my transit needs. I took the old Brill tracklesses to high school and I think I rode each and every one of those assigned to Southern Depot during that time. I was even lucky enough to ride the only Marmon (324) ever assigned to Southern, for a very short time, when it got out on the 79 one day.
Hey guys wassup, im BACCCCCK
anyway, my questions
1. Which Redbirds have been scrapped and how many?
2. Which redbirds are still on the system/what lines and are running normal?
3. When will they be all gone for good?
4. Has the R-142 been accepted my the public, do they like them, do they miss the redbirds?
Chris
1. Not sure on How many scrapped but mostly the R26/28'S from the No.5 Line and R29's + R36's off the No.6 Line where mainly scrapped.
2. The R 33 Main lines are still going strong running on the No.4,5 Lines. Also the R36's are on the No.7 Line as well. There are very few R 26/28/29's still running on the No.5 as also.
3. Thats unknown but I say in 2 years.
4. The public likes the R142'S. Most of the crews that work with them love them as well. At Pelham some don't even want a R62A know that the R142A's have taken the line over.
The latest counts say that there are only 16 Pelham R-29s left at Westchester Yard. Not sure about other lines, but the 6 has nearly lost all of it's Redbirds.
-Stef
I was told 14, and Concourse sent 30 cars over for reef prep.
Also, the 8113 is going down Broadway, again. It probably got sent back to Yonkers the last time I reported its transportation. Also three R143 shells under tarps were proceeding northbound towards the plant around the same time, 1100PM. I was told by a source at Pelham that the R29s have been officially retired from the 6 as of this week. Unless there is an emergency, no more deadbirds on the Lex Locals.
So that means the 6 can now officially say Bye Bye (Red)Birdies.:-)
I was told that date was back in December 25, with spares held over not used through the new year. Most of the cars being loaded yesterday were Ex-Pelham cars.
Take my fives... p l e a s e !
Yes yes yes yes yes yes no more!!!!!!!!!!! My pick comes up before 11AM and to stay where I'm at I may have to transfer over to 180th BUT the experience on new tech and being on the #5 would make me the 'King of the Hill' because the crews have been working hard to keep the last of the Redbirds running and three days of R142 class doesn't amount to a hill of rusty beans. Wait till the #5 RCIs have a few door indication problems....the #2s haven't the foggiest idea YET!!!! Hoping, praying and still OnTheJuice. CI Peter
I waited at Grand Central for over an hour during Thursday's afternoon rush hour, hoping for a "last chance" ride on a Redbird Pelham express, or even the local. No such luck -- nothing but R-62A's and R-142's. I settled for a Redbird 4 up to 149-GC, with an unscheduled and unannounced stop at 138 (does that happen often?).
If anybody spots a Redbird train on the 6, please let us (or me) know.
Before the final train of Redbirds is retired, the TA should polish it up and send it out for a week or two of touring, one or two days on each line.
Polish up a Redbird and loose the 'Bronx Class?' The only unscrattitied windows are the ones we replaced the broken glass in. Nothing like the smell of cooking composite brake shoes wafting in through carbody holes. CI Peter
I know I work on the No.6 Line on Sundays and they don't run the Redbird. Yes its down to only 1 10 car trainset and like Engine Brake said it may be retired by the end of the week.
I can't say much for the No.2 Line but the No.5 is mostly an R33 fleet. Also the No.4 runs a lot of Redbirds. I get at least 2 out of 6 when I work the No.4 Line.
Yipe! Two out of six of those nasties? Ummm ... need a rabbit's foot and oh, maybe a BROOM? My sympathies, guy ... for those who don't know, when you're doing the "bing bong thing" on redbirds, you have to work twice as hard, and remember to pull your head in the window before you smack the wall ... on other trainsets, you don't have to be as paranoid ... rabbit's foot and broom for the rust that you hope holds until the other end. Dave impresses me for dealing with it, and having not really noticed until I pointed out a few things by taking one of his trains apart (literally) while he was on it. Heh.
If you think that was bad you should have seen me this Monday. I had a Redbird on the No.4 Line that was just a piece of juck. Yes It was out of Utica. Every time the train made a stop or took power it was Bang Bang Bang. Also the storm door in my postition was jamming on me. Somethimes it didn't close and sometimes it was hard to get open. At Utica you get the junk you follower brings in and before the Redbird came in the C/R behind me said I was in for a suprise. I did deal with it and keeped the train in service to Woodlawn and made it on time.
Its something how weak that train was you almost could have collected the Storm door and hanger from the train. I know you collected some of the red that rusted off in your hands. Hehe
Heh ... JUST so you understand my twisted senses as to the CRAP you're working, at least the R1/9's were OPENING DAY EQUIPMENT. The redbirds were HOSERS ... they replaced the LoV's which sadly, had their OWN redbirditis ... HOWEVER, in the case of the R1/9's and LoV's getting replaced, they were in NOWHERE NEAR as bad a condition as they redturds are now. The R1/9's and everything ELSE that was ever scrapped met their maker FAR BETTER in condition than the junkbirds. I simply could NOT believe that a "cash-fattened" TA could be running such trash given the deplorable and DEADLY UNSAFE condition those cars were in. It simply BLEW my mind ... and I don't shock easily, I live upstate with the cows. We KNOW what "fresh country scent" really is. :)
The 'boids were ... well ... OK ... but not quite "original issue" like the R1/9's that were there on opening day. THEY demanded a bit of respect given they was old gals ... but as BAD as what I ran day in and day out as well as routinely rode on honking for all I could squawk, never saw ANYTHING on the railroad as phucked up as those 'boids. DEFINTELY carry an umbrella, shovel and brrom with ya. Worry beads sold separately ... void where prohibited by GO ...
I hardly ever ride the subway, The irt even less often. I must be lucky because the few redbirds I have been on were in very good shape. I am sure that some are in very poor shape, But I am sure that therec are enough in good shape to last a few more years.
You should have seen Wayne and me during our excursions together. We'd do a running commentary on every train of Redbirds we'd see. For each car, too: looks OK, rust under the windows, hole in the side, perforation here, fuhgetaboutit, etc. Then I took the liberty of calling the car washer in Corona Yard a birdbath.
Feh ... you KNOW it's cream of redbird soup when you can reach down, touch the anticlimber steel and have a nice big chunk break RIGHT off in your hand. Apparently the worst ones are on the 4 line, kept at the IRT yard next door to Train Dude's place ... some rust around the windows is acceptable, even expected. Complete metal failure on the anticlimbers however is NOT acceptable.
Agreed. Those anticlimbers are indispensible.
They ARE handy to have ... when the R1/9's went byebye, there were a few of those that had similar decay but they NEVER went out in revenue service. Now bad rivets on step plates that had rotted out, that was different. 12-9'ing an EMPLOYEE is OK, dumping geese isn't. :)
At least you didn't fall down between cars when it happened to you. One slip and you would have been a goner.
The remaining R26s, R28s and R29s look to be in pretty bad shape from what I've seen. Most of the R33s that number in the 8800s and 9200s also look bad. Scrapping will be done according to the shape the Redbirds are in (that is the cars in the best shape will be the last ones to go). I think the Mainline R33s, which were last to be GOH'ed (in 1990-91) will likely be the last non-stainless steel cars in subway service.
Chamces are the R-33s will make up most of the mothballed Redbirds, if they're still going to mothball any.
They'd better. The Redbirds on the 2 (which now make up much of the 5 fleet) are doing just fine. We West Siders take care of our trains.
I thought a lot of those R-33s still looked pretty good last fall.
I will be keeping my hours and days off...through a transfer to the 180th Street crew at 239th. Some cars are easy work, others are nightmares. Parts are starting to go in short supply so enjoy the ride while you can. The TA is making a concerted effort to push Bombardier to MAKE TRAINS GO. Cosmetics are out...passenger safety and proper operation remain the rule. Word is one to three months. CI Peter
The 2 still have its share of Redbirds, about 4-6 10 car sets still remain in revenue service on the "deuce". I always get one for at least a half trip.
That will change. Apparently, RTO will start training Crews on the 5 to operate R-142s shortly.
Redbirds on the Deuce will be a thing of the past.
-Stef
Yes they better start training those crews. I'm up at Dyre 2 days a week and not too many are quilfied and really don't want to be. My T/O isn't even quilfied and he talks about the R 142 like its a bad thing. Thats right unlike the No.6 Line the No.5 crews love there Rustbirds.
Well you have to try it before you can make a judgement. They really don't have a choice, otherwise they better get over to the B Div.
I've always wandered what's better? Braking and power in one, or separate controls?
-Stef
I believe there was a R142 in service on the 5 Monday evening (listening to radio transmissions).
Lined up in my yard today. Funeral procession??? CI Peter
Shall I cue up the Funeral March from the Eroica Symphony?
I do my best in boid carbody because I know a T/O has to sit in the midst of my work all day and the Mess is Supreme! Bye bye boids. Hello to new tech new headaches that they never taught you in school. CI Peter
Which Yard do you work as E 180 or E 239?
The only thing I don't like about the R142's is the enable button. There where many time my T/O's took the button away from me before even closing the front section.
239. 180 is there too. Mebbe a switch to their crew will keep me with my friends. The enable button baffles us all. Isn't it pretty? CI Peter
There's a rewire opportunity for some enterprising tweaker ... connect it up to the OPEN side of the switch only so the C/R can still close up when the T/O decides to play "button button, who got da button?" ...
Problem is that the button is 'logic' and not DC control. The R142 might have been a little better but management told me that old time TA engineers could not understand something like directly driven door motors....'every TA car has door relays.' So, every R142 has banks of door relays that interface the motor drivers. I think about the 'resistance tests' of the 180th crew on the Redbirds....I'm sure someone will come up with door relay tests. There is no 'S' wire I know of nor C/R indication measurement of worth. CI Peter
Xacto knife, circuit path cuts, slobber bridges ... give me have schematic, we make work chop chop. Now you see why I don't work for the TA anymore. I'm glad to be working for the missus writing software. If things don't work the way the customer wants, me cut wires, me bridge joints. Make it work. Now try THAT in a bureaucracy. :)
Bedtime my friend!!! My partners have been exposed to Alstom DLs from the propulsion system...I think the car desk knows I don't need the edumecation after WabTek sent their engineer looking for me while on Redbird inspection. All of this takes time...me n EngineBrake have first hand experience with the mess...my time beyond 'spray n wipe' will come soon. CI Peter
Don't forget the ball peen hammer.:-)
How does a T/O take away the buttons?
I don't think a T/O can take away the buttons. Left and right door enablers are snap action locking so the T/O does not have to lean on one like the T handle. Since the system is essentially 'logic controlled,' the buttons cannot be left in a state of 'left and right door enabling' all the time. The software forces the attention of the T/O to be cooperative with the C/R. An electronic toggle package is in the works for all cars in revenue service. Be prepared! CI Peter
Simple the T/O presses the Enable button to give the C/R Control of the doors. When we close the doors the T/O is supose to wait until they have Indication before depressing the button to take control of the doors away. However some take it away the minute they hear Bing bong. Unlike the other cars on a R142 anytime I press a door closeing button You can hear bing bong train line so you hear it twice. Its weird because in the front you hear the bing bong but the doors are not closing because I just pressed the command for the rear section.
It scares me a bit when the controls are taken before closing down the whole train.
I really do not feel like I'm in charge on a R142. The T/O has the control of everything.
There's some TA folks here who doubt that's the case ... that the enablers only control the "open" bit and don't interfere with the "close" buttons ... I can see them being wired up to prevent an unsafe offside opening up, but it sure is strange that an enabler would interfere with a closedown ... it'd be too late if it was offside which is obstensibly the purpose for it to begin with ...
Oh, and HOWDY, bro! Didja get your happy pick yet?
The R44s have latching relays tied into the conductors MDC controlled by the enablers. Once the C/R goes to on, my buttons complete, and the circuit is ALL his. Since my buttons are momentaries, not constant on/off, the circuits automatically de-energized when the MDC is put back to run. I don't have to agree to run the train again.
Heh. Sounds like the whining years ago as the bingbongs were coming in fast and furious on the D train ... nobody wanted to take out the R1/9's when there was something shinier. And cooler. :)
And quieter, right?:-) Instead of moans, groans, and grunts, they got a "sssssssss-whooooooo-ooooooooo-oooooooo" as power was applied.
Nah, it was the AIR CONDITIONING ... :)
all i know is that ill miss them
Lemme know where you live so i can personally deliver a couple of pounds of boid cremation motor dust. CI Peter
Wow! IRT pixie dust! Does it sell by the pound or by the gram? :)
Nickel bags by the nosefull.
after reading all of the threads here...my comment is ........
" whine bitch & moan gripe complain " .......!!
What an INTERESTING turn of events! Howdy, guy! :)
Are the Flushing lines redbirds going also? What is replacing them if they are?
The Flushing redbirds will go eventually. What will replace them is up to NYC Transit, which hasn't decided yet.
David
as long as there is enough of em to shoot a video this summer ...!!
@ then at least i will have em on video...
Hope you can communicate in Pan Eastern Languages. The cream of the boids may go to #7 but by the time you arrive in my city the boids will be as dead as a Chinese Chicken flattened out by a 72K ton tractor trailer. CI Peter
by this summer ?
Mebbe a month or so.....transferred to 180th today (#5 line) so YOU KNOW how eager I am to see an end. CI Peter
You started at E180 today?
I start and Finish at E 180 St on Fridays
I'm 239/180. Means I work the 180th maintainance crew still at 239th and no assigned team....troubles....but right now doing carbody. Now I get to officially attend the 'safety meetings.' Always wondered what all the Russian crew piled into a Redbird for. Good Luck and God Bless my Brother. CI Peter
Look here and scroll to the bottom
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/
WMATA sucks ass. It's so like the PAris Metro, and dimly lit, and generally horrible. The transfer points are choking, and the service are infrequent. Their attempts at ITS are quite good though, the platforms display the train and how many minutes till next train. OPn the opther phand, PATCO's display doesn't work, it only says "12 mins between trains" and even does that in peak hours (when it is clearly every 4 mins)!
How do you define "dimly lit"? Better lit than most subways I have been on.
At least the trasfer points are wider than those in other cities. What do you call those tunnels and stairways at 15th Street in Philly or 72nd on the 1, 2, and 3 in NYC? They couldn't possibly handle what Metro Center does.
As for the PIMS, it is great, when it works. Also, to tell me the train is "approching" isn't too helpful, nor does it help to announce a train that never arrives, post wrong destinations, or tell me the train is out of service when it isn't. If only it could tell us what train was in the station, then again, most of them are off to the sides in the mezzanines.
Metro Center's main problem is the same one WMATA has with most of its original downtown exits to the street -- No stairways, just escalators. If your anxious to transfer from the Blue Line to the Red Line above and hear a train coming into the station, you're SOL if there's a line to the up escalators and the middle one is either headed down or under repair. Very annoying, and there's certainly enough room on those big mezzanines over the Blue/Orange platform to bang a couple of holes in the ceiling and put in some stairs up to the Red Line.
There actually are stairs past each escalator that take you to/from the Red Line. They are towards the first car of the Blue/Orange line if you are headed towards New Carrollton/Addison Road for the platform to Glenmont and at the rear of that train to go to the platform for Shady Grove. Vice Versa if you are on the Blue/Orange Line headed towards Virginia.
Are the stairs new? My days as a Red Line commuter/Metro Center transferer ended 20 years ago, and I remember that being the biggest bottleneck in getting upstairs/downstairs during rush hours (and pretty stupid, since the next station, Farragut North, did have stairs when it originally was built).
I don't think the stairs are that new, but I don't remember them in the early 80's either. The problem is, with the stairs being at the ends of the trains and the majority of the people being lazy, packed in the middle of the trains, etc., the stairs are rarely used. So many able bodied people run for those elevators, too, which I think is the most annoying thing in that system. With the "me first" mentality we have down here, the yuppies in their business suits and the prissies with their high heels are more comfortable pushing people out of the way to run up and down the escalators for trains that run every few minutes.
Since I get back to the DC area every so often, I get to see how much WMATA usage has grown over the years, and the main transfer points, like Metro Center, Gallery Place and L'Enfant Plaza, definitely need more stairs, not escalators, to handle the growing crowds.
Keep the up-and-down escalators at the stations for the people who want to use them, but stairs are a much faster way of getting people up and down a level, and the system is too heavily used nowadays to deal with the vertical choke-points WMATA created with their original 1970s we're-not--old-fashioned-like-New York designs (let alone the weather-related problems the escalators only set-up to and from the street cause for passengers at many downtown stations while repair work is being done).
Yeah, I mean, the metrorail is like going into a museum and I think that had a lot to do with the Fine Arts Commission. I think its a great system for what its worth.
So many escalators in the system are down right now. I know much of it is due to upgrading, but the other day at Metro Center, only one escalator was going up to the Red Line's Glenmont side since one was completely blocked off,during rush hour no less and there was a huge back up and only a few of us had the sense to run for the stairs. There was also a huge water leak of some kind on the upper level of Metro Center on Sunday that required the escalators on the Glenmont side that take you to the mezzaneine level where the old Woodward and Lothrop store was, I can't remember the street name there, to be blocked off.
Gallery Place is used even more with the MCI Center on top of it. That is another crazy scene after any event there. To get back to Virginia, usually I'll either walk down to Metro Center, or just go and take the Yellow/Green line to L'Enfant and take the Orange from there rather than worrying about cramming on a Red Line for one stop.
I hadn't even factored in the MCI Center into my Gallery Place complaints, but yes, especially with the Wizards actually being worth seeing this year, that would make the lack of access problem even worse. In other cases, close-in stations like Arlington and Crystal City actually have less platform-to-street access than end-of-the-line stops like Vienna or Shady Grove. That's stupid.
I've got a few other quibbles with WMATA -- Georgetown is their Second Ave., but in this case it was the residents' own damn fault there isn't a line going there -- but the system does look good. It's just that while many of the lines now have rush hour crush loads approaching New York's levels, the stations' vertical access layouts can't handle the number of people they have to, and they should add a few more stairways, even if it does take away from the "prettiness" in design of the stations.
I agree completely. I live about two blocks from the Ballston Station on the Orange Line and those narrow platforms can get pretty crowded. When the Pentagon Metro was closed to the public after Sept. 11, the Pentagon City Station was jam packed to the point that police had to be out to do crowd control since hundreds of buses were going to that stop instead. Pentagon is now allowing the public to use its station again so that's not too much of a problem anymore.
Its only now that they are realizing that there should have been at least a third track to allow express trains, reroutes around breakdowns, etc. Its too bad the planners messed up in the 50's when they were designing the regional system. More stairs/access to the stations would be a nice help at certain places.
Luckily, as bad as it gets at Gallery Place after the MCI Center lets out, it moves pretty quickly. There are about 15 fare gates or so that allow people to queue up and move through rather quickly and the flow to the platforms move pretty orderly, except when you mix Caps fans with Penguins/Rangers fans. It gets pretty rowdy then. The Wizards, too, are definitely Metro more business.
No.
The stairs are at the ends of the Orange/Blue platforms where they come into the middle of the Red Line platforms. The Red Line tracks are over the "middle" of the Blue/Orange tracks, so it is impossible to place the stairs or escalators anywhere other than where they are. AFAIK, the stairs were part of the original construction, as I recall them being there when I would vist in the late 70s.
If the escalators had been pointed towards the Red Line platforms going downstains to the Blue/Orange island platform instead of away, a companion set of stairs could have been placed behind the escalators, but still much closer to the Red Line tracks than they are today and in full view of all the transferring passengers.
The current design does move the crowds off the Red Line platform and into the back area of the upstairs mezzanine, but a wider Red Line platform near the transfer point would have solved the crowd flow problem. It would have ruined the perfect + layout of the arched ceilings in Metro Center, but function should take precedence over form when you're designing a subway system.
Keep in mind that 72nd Street opened in 1904, a good 70 years before Metro Center. For the time, the station was state-of-the-art.
>>They couldn't possibly handle what Metro Center does.
<<
au contraire. the New York numbers are immense. Its on been a year or two since ALL of Metro outstripped T Square alone. While I don't have the 72nd St numbers five bucks say they are higher than Metro Center.
I don't think the WMATA sucks, but I agree with Lexcie that the lighting is dim. But I understand, because that was the lighting style in the mid 70s to early 80s. When I wa sin high school in the mid 90s, they upgraded the lighting in our pool area because it was to dim, which was built in the late 70s. The only thing I don't like about the WMATA is the different fares to different places. I realize it may be convenient if ur only going a stop or 2, but for the most part I favor a flat fare. I've only taken 2 DC trips, once in April of 1991 and in July of 1997. At those times, the flashing lights before the train came were working, and I found that too be extremely helpful, and safer then ending over the yellow line to see if a train is coming. -Nick
Those lights have always worked. We were talking about the next train signs.
In addition, with all of Metro's modern construction, they still had a fiasco when wintry temperatures covered the area. They never thought of 3rd rail ice scrapers nor heaters around switches?
FYI, at PATCO, they're still testing the system, so please don't judge the effectiveness until it is actually operating. Thank you.
South Jersey's inability to get its act together and get a second PATCO branch built sucks big time.
On the other hand, I congratulate NJ Transit for its addition of Cherry Hill-Route 70 as a station, and its continuation of dependable service along the Atlantic City rail line.
On the other hand, I congratulate NJ Transit for its addition of Cherry Hill-Route 70 as a station, and its continuation of dependable service along the Atlantic City rail line.
Two hot rumors heard last night:
NJT will soon terminate the Atlantic City service (this is an old rumor)
A real Cherry Hill station will be built as part of the business/retail complex to built on the site of the defunct Garden State racetrack.
Cherry Hill station
The casinos depend on NJ Transit to ferry workers to the casino. Neither A.C. nor Trenton would allow a shutdown of the line.
My thanks to Dan Lawrence for getting me involved in the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. I've already qualified as a Conductor and I will qualify as a Motorman soon.
Eric D. Smith
Congratulations. Excellent news. Kudos to you and Dan.
Dan's da MAN!
Congrats. You'll enjoying working at BSM. Being a member of Branford has brought me great joy, so I know. How can one not appreciate history?
-Stef
Eric, good for you. You'll get great pleasure out of doing a little something to help preserve that old stuff for future generations.
It's been a labor of love this past 3 years for me at Branford, and the friends you meet along the way, like Dan, will add to your enjoyment of life in general.
Mr rt__:^)
I forgot to mention this. Last Thursday while leaving 30th St. on the Pennsylvanian I saw a pair of NJT Arrow II electrics in the Penn coach yard. Their pans were not up. Does anyone have a clue about this?
Didn't NJTransit recently sell some Arrow IIs to SEPTA? Didn't think it would be that quick, though...
The last I heard, SEPTA decided against buying any of the NJT MU's. Unless this recently changed... With all the talk of the 'Silverliner V' cars lately, and no demonstrated need for additional cars, I'd be surprised that SEPTA would be interested.
I see Arrows at 30th St every so often, and they're usually heading to or from repairs, overhauls, etc off property. If there are more than two it's usually for a special run, Amtrak rental, etc. I suspect the two there recently (which were oddly sandwiched in a string of Amtrak coaches) were being moved to or from an off-line shop.
The ARROW II's would be a good match for SEPTA. Their 80mph speed limit won't really matter on any of SEPTA's lines and it would be much cheaper than buying new.
I agree this would be a good idea. The center doors would be greatly appreciated at the Center City stations. I don't think given current conditions that SEPTA needs more cars, and even if it wanted to replace the S II's and III's, buying cars only 10+/- years younger than them is questionable. I'm surprised NJT isn't considering turning them into coaches as it did with the A I's.
The Arrow I cars have become Comet I and Comet IB cars. Both classes will be retired once the Comet II and Comet IIB rehabs are completed. You can tell Arrow I cars because they resemble Arrow II and III except for no center doors.
You have a time frame for when Arrow I's were demotored?
-Stef
Sorry. I have no info. Maybe fishbowl has the info for us.
I believe this occured in the 1988-89 time frame. I also recall that the A I's were out of service for some time before this conversion. Anyone know for sure?
Arrow I's resemble the SEPTA Silverliners more than the Arrow II's. This is understandable as they were both built by St. Louis Car in the late 1960's. For example the Arrow I's do not have any roof vents.
The Arrow I's, when overhauled, had their center doors removed and a panel was put in its place. This is clearly visable from the outside, but not from the inside.
The SEPTA cars also have this same exterior look, but on the inside, that center vestible is like a small compartment with two seats facing each other (and with immensly uncomfortable straight-back seats!). The Metro-North versions of the Arrow/Comet I is the same way.
Now here's my questions - did the SEPTA cars ever have center doors? If so, why were they removed and if not, why the exterior "door panel"?
IINM, the Metro-North cars were built as-is; they were not MU's in a former life.
< The Metro-North versions of the Arrow/Comet I is the same way. >
Those 8 Metro-North cars were built as a run-on order with the Arrow 3 . They were always built for loco haulage.
< Now here's my questions - did the SEPTA cars ever have center doors? If so, why were they removed and if not, why the exterior "door panel"? >
The SEPTA SIlverliners never had center doors.
The S IV's were built with the knockout panel (and the squeezed facing seats!) in the center. When they were delivered in '74-'76 the Regional Rail lines stub-ended at Suburban and Reading Terminal. The thought was that the center doors would be added if the Commuter Tunnel run-through operation required it. Needless to say, the doors haven't been installed (and are sorely missed). Several years ago SEPTA looked into installation of the doors and found the cost to be very expensive, so the idea was dropped. However, the IV's that go through rehab have one of the center seats removed, so the tight fit/get to know your fellow passenger well arrangement in the center section is gone.
Only the S III's were built by St Louis. The II's were built by Budd and the IV's by GE.
But who really built the bodies of the IV's for GE ? Was it Vickers (Canadian) ?
You nitwits need to lay off WMATAGMOAGH. My previous statetments notwithstanding, I still think the young man is brilliant when it comes to matters of transit. If you birds want to pick a fight with anyone, PICK ONE WITH ME!
Eric D. Smith
Ummmmmmm... I think he meant the "system"...
Not the POSTER... tho I wouldnt know fer sure
since the killfile is upto the dozens here..
Yeah, nobody was going after Oren at all. Its fun to slam our subway systems though. I'd never slam a person. I've learned so much on here, its pretty cool.
It's nice to know that you like to close your ears to all forms of reason.
Took the 2025 F out of 179th. Trains goes BIE right after 36th street. T/O goes to reset. Asked him about it, goes doesnt know whats going on, went to check back (im listening to my scanner meanwhile) Sick passenger, this is about to get sicker. T/O asks conductor if he should call it in, they agree. Waiting at QP, C/R asks T/O to come back, I get up and go behind the T/O, this guy is rolling on the floor and is resisting everything. Just plain old rolling on the floor. Screaming "if i dont get out of here im gonna pull the brake again" OY. Then another 15 minute wait. QP wants the F to move out but ain't giving the lineup. Peh Peh Peh. 15 min wait for lineup results in F going over the G line then to Stillwell.
Screaming "if i dont get out of here im gonna pull the brake again" OY.
Someone not get out of bed today??
Im surprised he even HAD room to roll around on the floor.
I am confused. As soon as the train went BIE, the crew is supposed to call the Control Center. So next they tell the Control Center that there was a pulled cord, no reason given. You also mention the train waiting at QP with the guy rolling on the floor. Again, they should notify Control of this emotionally disturbed person, and tell Control that he now admits to pulling the cord previously. Assuming QP is Queens Plaza, I am wondering what the F is doing at Queens Plaza? Was there some kind of announcement saying that the F was being rerouted?
I would guess the F was rerouted to QP so that it wouldn't block the route over 63 St. By having the F at QP other F's can still go over 63 and everything else can be rerouted to the local track from Roosevelt or 36 St to QP.
This screwed up everything down the line. Platform agents at 2nd Ave. and B'way Lafayette were telling customers that there was, "No V Service, only F" at around 8:00 - 8:30. Even in Brooklyn, the F was more packed than usual. In my 2 months living there, I have come to the conclusion that reinstatement of rush hours express service on the F line in Brooklyn is warranted. If only they had enough equipment to extend the V or G to, say, Kings Highway, where some F's terminate already, and let the F run express between Coney Island and Jay Street (obviously, peak direction only betweeen Church and C.I.) I guess it would have to be extending the G, since this would remove the turnaround traffic on the express tracks east/south of Smith/9th. If they extended the V, the G's would be in the way. But, hey, I'm just a passenger -- a passenger who stands on the platform at 7th Ave./9th Street in Brooklyn, with it's empty express tracks, and its jam-packed rush hour F's on the local track...
Running the G as a Culver local wouldn't reduce the crowds on the F, since anyone going to Manhattan would have to transfer to the F at an express station. It would anger the local passengers, however, and rightfully so.
I know this has been said before, but now the V can go to Brooklyn and terminate at Church Ave. (Not quite Culver territory.)
The G turns around at Fourth Ave. and The V turns around at Church. Then the F can use the Express tracks in the IND built portion of the line in Brooklyn after the Bergen Street station is rehabed.
If the G "turns" at Fourth Ave, and the F is express, the G takes up the track space of the F at Fourth Ave.
I guess then that there would be no room for a layover track around Fourth Avenue? That would solve that problem.
Alternate solution, is the G and V terminating at Church Ave. just as the G and R did at 71st/Continental and Queens Blvd.
More outrageous, would be to rebuild the track at Ditmas where the shuttle stopped and use that as the terminus for the V line.
Matter of fact too ka rerouted morning train downtown. Was a V that ran to Church ave, later Control decided to have it go further to kings highway. Interesting though, the LCD sign could display my neighborhoos name V - to Church Ave - 53st/6AV Lcl -Kensington/Brklyn
Those signs sure are versitile
Allow me to amend that: the G and V could both be extended to Church as locals, with the F running express to Church. I see no problem with that once there are enough trainsets (and the relevant switches are repaired). The status of Bergen itself is irrelevant; expresses could bypass if necessary.
Aha. We think alike here. I answered your other message, before reading this one.
Right After the T/O told Control of the brake pull (still in the tunnel after 36th, Control Came back and told the Crew they were going Over the G line to smith 9sts and then to Coney Island, thats why the line up into Queens Plaza
yes they notified the Control Center of all the things you mentioned. I apologize that I did not take a stenographic trascript of the Conversation on the B divison Radio. Yes there were announcements after we were on the move into Queens Plaza that the train was being re-routed. Also there was a delay in police respponding.
Sounds like a foamer POed that he didn't have a railfan window to look out at 63rd st. tube from.
A'right everybody, which one of you was it?
Here the Updated IN SERVICE list
7466-7470 with 7471-7475 as of 01/13/02
7526-7530 as of 12/30/01
7501-7510 as of 12/30/01
As of last Friday (1/11/02), 7541-45, and 7551-55 are running.
7571-80 being prepped for service.
-Stef
7551-55 were sitting in the Kawasaki tracks on flatbeds at Croton-Harmon time, it's about time they brought em in!
SEPTA has at least one train that has a full engine (sorry i dont know the name for it) and a set of bombardier coaches. I always see the train on layover at Trenton. Two questions, what is the schedule for this train and does septa plan to add more of these trains to its roster.
Also for those who have ridden it, is the ride different than the one on the silverliners? And is there one of these train sets on thre R5 too?
SEPTA has several AEM-7's and one ALP-44.
There is one set on the R7, one on the R2 to Warminster, one on the R3 to Media and several on both R5 lines. I think that most of the trainsets either terminate at Suburban (Penn Side), short turn and lay over (Reading Side) or run through (R5). They are definitly peak period only.
Your best bet might be one of the R5 Paoli/Thorndale trains leaving Suburban Station in the PM rush. I usually see one hitting 30th St after 5 PM. The trains lay up at Suburban during the day.
Story HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
They have better pictures online than they do in the paper itself.
Great news. Quite uplifting.
So, from what I gather in this article, the plan is to build a tunnel section (and I imagine, a station shell) through the former Cortlandt St. Station, and install a crossover south of Rector to turn around trains and enable South Ferry to be taken out of service and rebuilt. That last bit is news to me, but I don't follow this message board religiously, either.
One factual error- South Ferry is not the only station that cannot accomodate a full length train. 145th on the Lenox Line has this limitation, too.
This is why I view the field of Journalism with a grain of salt, especially on subjects I know a thing or two about. I can imagine what they botch on things I don't know. Anyway, that's another thread.
It really is amazing how often you see an error when you know more than the journalist.
My favorite example of journalistic mangling: a report about a NY state plan to improve the road "from Kaaterskill to Clove". There are no such towns. It was the "Kaaterskill Clove Road" (a clove is a deep valley).
You are correct. Journalists who have no common knowledge base with their article subject screw up all the time.
That's why Carl Sagan, who is a scientist in his own right, can produce really good material for the public explaining other scientists' work, and why physicians who are employed as medical reporters can do a good job explaining pros and cons of a given treatment.
Then you have Katie Couric showing off her ignorance and scientific illiteracy on the Today show when she interviews somebody about anthrax. But that's OK - NBC paid $65 million for face and bosom...
Then you have Katie Couric showing off her ignorance and scientific illiteracy on the Today show when she interviews somebody about anthrax. But that's OK - NBC paid $65 million for face and bosom...
Katie Couric has a bosom? Who knew?!?
It's not just Katie Couric showing off her ignorance, but the producer whispering into her earpiece that didn't do his/her research.
Well, we know Katie has a colon, since that's been broadcast live on the Today Show (stop looking at the TV and chew that breakfast down good kiddies, and yes, I know they did it because her husband died of colon cancer).
Well, we know Katie has a colon, since that's been broadcast live on the Today Show (stop looking at the TV and chew that breakfast down good kiddies, and yes, I know they did it because her husband died of colon cancer).
What in the world are you talking about???
OK, the long explanation: As part of a segement back in 1998, they actually stuck a camera up inside Katie to show what a colon-rectal exam involves. It happened about a year after her husband, attorney Jay Monahan, died of colon cancer, so the reason for doing it is evident. But if you happened to be woofing down your food that morning and turned on Ch. 4, it didn't make for a pretty picture.
OK, the long explanation: As part of a segement back in 1998, they actually stuck a camera up inside Katie to show what a colon-rectal exam involves.
I, uh, see. And now I wish I hadn't asked the question ...
That's not what I want to see after NY1's "Rail & Road Report."
Hopefully they started the tape after the camera was nearing the colon, if you know what I mean...
Yeeesh.
You are correct. Journalists who have no common knowledge base with their article subject screw up all the time.
That's why Carl Sagan, who is a scientist in his own right, can produce really good material for the public explaining other scientists' work
Well, I hate to break the news, but Carl Sagan ain't producing much these days ...
Good point. I wrote in the present tense, when the past tense was clearly indicated. I was a big fan of his work.
So was I.
I've met him in person, and I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been able to take his class at Cornell. It was he alone who got me interested in outer space as a young child, watching Cosmos on PBS. RIP Prof. Sagan,
MATT-2AV
Take it easy on Journalists-most of us are General Assignment Reporters who get moved from story to story each day. And while we try to factually bring each story together, occasionally mistakes are made. Try becoming an expert on something in a day, or a few hours (as in Katie's case) and see how well YOU do.
By the way...this event was probably a media tour set up by the MTA's Public Affairs office, and the reporter was escorted by a rep of the MTA...so blame the MTA and not the reporter, who only reported information given to him
I'll be good ... I'm former RTNDA myself ... there's a lot of folks in the business who don't prep for a story either and tend to sneak in, grab a sheet off the table in back and split. (on camera of course requires setting up the sticks and grabbing a seat for 15 seconds for a few reaction shots and head nods in the "room" prior to splitting) But a lot of reporters show up for a story cold and thus are readily lead in whichever direction former reporters now "guides" choose to twist the story. Only a reporter who has an idea -or- a DAMNED good BS detector can get past these "handlers" ... I see it all the time. And I did print, radio, TV and TV anchor though I was a small fish. Most reporters are intrinsically lazy, disillusioned and have stopped asking questions. These are the ones who "screw up" since they depend on being spoon fed everything and have egos large enough that they'll fake an answer if they don't have one.
Frankly, I think MUCH of the scorn is well earned across the profession, especially on the electronic side of the "trade" ... but most of all, you don't see many journalists, you have talking heads and other theatrical types. Journalism ain't fun. It requires LONG hours of research in mighty boring places, and a lot of "hurry up and wait" ... I personally think it all went to hell when reporters stopped hanging out in bars. :)
I'm glad to hear that! It looks like NY is the only government agency taking our rebuild seriously. Go Pataki! Thanks for nothing Bush.
Ah, maybe Enron will buy us a bus ...
Yeah, but will they have enough money left to fill it with gas?
Hey, who do you think has been pushing cities to buy all those clean burning natural gas buses over the past decade -- Enron (official corporate sponsor of the Koyoto Treaty).
I see that was a good marketing scheme...
They have a nice set of graphics here:
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2002-01-16/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-138371.asp
It will be cut and cover. It seems everything will be new.
Maybe this is ghoulish, but I'd love to have a tile or something similar from the station, as a keepsake. Would it be in bad taste if they sold such things at the Transit Museum shop?
>>Maybe this is ghoulish, but I'd love to have a tile or something similar from the station, as a keepsake. Would it be in bad taste if they sold such things at the Transit Museum shop? <<
I think it would be in bad taste, so expect to find it on ebay.
One thing that caught my eye in the graphic was the notation that "trolley tracks" were buried in the street pavement above the tunnel. Presumably these would be conduit streetcar tracks, unique to New York and Washington, D.C. If they can be recovered in reasonable shape, it might be a good idea to display a short section in the transit museum.
Excellent idea.
It's amazing those tracks lasted that long and even through the original building of the trade center.
but I'd love to have a tile or something similar from the station, as a keepsake. Would it be in bad taste if they sold such things at the Transit Museum shop?
Selling them would be in bad taste, but a damaged mosaic in the transit museum might be nice. Does anyone know if they will have a 9/11 subway damage exhibit when they reopen the museum? It would be cool to see pre-9/11 photos/plans, post-9/11 damage, and renovated station data. Especially if this will be finished as quickly as the article says it will.
There weren't any mosaics at Cortlandt St. IRT. Just plain old 70s white wall tile. I think the Transit Museum already has an original Cortlandt St. mosaic in the collection already (picture of it elsewhere on the site). I think the original poster might have been thinking of them selling the mosaics from South Ferry when they rebuild it but IMHO any mosaics should be preserved and built into the walls of the new station.
Sorry Dave, but Cortlandt IRT was reskinned in beige wall tile. The art was limited to photos of the area before the WTC was built and after it was built.
You may be thinking of Cortlandt BMT which was renovated from the refrigerator tile. Cortlandt BMT had artwork Travel Trade and Treasure and was located in the 24 hour underpass. I am nort sure of the status of the art but expect it may be damaged.
Beige, white, it's still not got any mosaics. :-)
I have no place to put it, but the treasure I'd really like to have is one of the crumpled I-beams, one with the station-name sign attached to it.
I'd settle for one of the tiles.
They are going to have to deal with the 'scavanger' issue soon enough. Aside from what they preserve in museum collections, or re-use in a new station, are they to destroy everything beyond identification or is it to be disposed of in a fair manner, e.g., an auction. Or is somebody gonna be selling it off the back of a truck?
>>They are going to have to deal with the 'scavanger' issue soon enough<<
They may not deal with the "scavenger" issue. My bet is that the Cortlandt St (IRT)station debris winds up at Fresh Kills with the rest of the WTC.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think the little signs will wind up in the homes of the contruction workers. Do you think they are just going to throw the "World Trade Center" signs out? The Cortlandt ones maybe, but not the little WTC signs.
Speaking of mosaics, I would assume before they put that ugly brick tile into the Cortlandt station in the 70's Cortlandt had name tablet mosaics, I wonder if they are still under the "new" wall like they were on the Broadway line. Does anyone know if they are or of any photos of cortlandt before they redid the station in the 70's?
Photos are HERE. Dave Pirmann rules!
Scroll down to Cortlandt St, there are 2 photos of mosaics just above the Chambers St. section.
Pretty cool, I should have looked there first. Now if someone can find a photo the old Cortlandt name tablet. I couldn't find any photos of those on this site. I would assume all the IRT mosaics at Cortlandt must still be under the brick wall, like they were on the Broadway line.
Probably. It's always easier to put a new skin on a station than remove the old, repair the wall, and put up new tile. And the newest tile in that station is definitely the "NYC transit on the verge of bankruptcy in the 70's motif."
Now if someone can find a photo the old Cortlandt name tablet
Have you tried looking through the sites that are on the "Links" page off this home page? There are always some random photos here and there.
$1 million a day sounds pretty cheap compared to previous estimates.. Let's see, 11 months X 30 days per month = 330 days.
So they're saying this whole rebuild will be done for under $350 million.
The previous estimates ($1.5 billion) were simply not credible for a plain vanilla rebuild.
The destroyed or damaged portion of the line is only 1000' or so. Even at $2 billion per mile 2nd Ave prices, that's only $400 million.
And think of all the things that DON'T need doing:
- Removing the paving and dirt above. I believe debris removal above is part of the general cleanup and will be done by the time this project starts in March.
- Building the line while keeping the traffic moving above. Includes things like inefficient use of heavy equipment because there's not enough space to maneuver.
- Noise abatement/limited hours because people live 20 feet from the work site.
- Moving existing electric, water, and gas. (Might be needed if they plan to deepen the line, but I hear no word of that).
- Building new stations. (Needed at Cortlandt but not part of this plan. The only station work is elevators at Rector).
- Covering over??? Not sure if they plan to leave an open cut for the 1000' at the WTC site. I guess at a minimum they do need to cover the tracks at Vesey and Liberty for pedestrians to cross.
>> And think of all the things that DON'T need doing: <<
Don't forget "maintaining daytime subway service while the project is underway." That is often the biggest albatross on a construction project.
True.
Yup. That cuts expenses waaay down. That's what was so difficult and expensive about the 63rd St. connection to Queens Blvd.
I was comparing it to the 2nd Ave line, which has a really phenomenal price per mile, and where there is no service to maintain, except at the connections with the 63rd St and Delancey St lines.
Good points. The article does state, however, that the 3-foot subway roof would be removed so the center support wall could be replaced with new columns.
Was someone trapped in the station with a can of spraypaint, or was that someone's idea of a joke?
Not to sound morbid, but when the south tower was hit, my first reaction was to enter the mezzanine at Cortland St. because I thought it'd be "safe". Had the tower collapsed immediatley, I'd have been the one who would need to paint such a sign.
You would have been safe, because the tower didn't collape, and in fact was designed to take the impact of a large plane without collapsing. It just wasn't designed to take a fire fed by many tons of jet fuel. So you would have had 50 minutes to escape via the underground passageways.
You would have been safe, because the tower didn't collape, and in fact was designed to take the impact of a large plane without collapsing. It just wasn't designed to take a fire fed by many tons of jet fuel. So you would have had 50 minutes to escape via the underground passageways.
Being right in Cortlandt Street IRT at the time of the South Tower's collapse wouldn't necessarily have been fatal. As the pictures elsewhere on the site show, while some parts of the station were crushed, others remained largely intact. Anyone on the platforms in the non-crushed areas might have been able to escape along the tracks to the north, although I suppose the dust and smoke might have created an asphyxiation risk. The tunnel collapse to the north of Cortlandt Street didn't occur until several hours later, when WTC 7 came down.
I was right near the enterance to the south tower when we were hit, which was very near to the downtown exit from Cortland St. I know for a fact that this area was pulverized, as the jewelery from the store right across the corridor was scattered all over ground zero.
The towers were in fact designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707, which at that time was the largest commercial jet in service. The jet fuel fire is another story.
The towers were in fact designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707, which at that time was the largest commercial jet in
service. The jet fuel fire is another story.
It did not seem to occur to anyone that when airplanes crash, they do tend to burn!
It did not seem to occur to anyone that when airplanes crash, they do tend to burn!
Steel has a constant melting point, so if it had been taken into account, very little could've been done. Although there was a recent article in some newspaper (I can't remember) saying that if the structural beam been encased in asbestos, they may not have melted. But that's not an option today.
I believe the theory was that any plane hitting the towers would have been attempting to land nearby, resulting in mostly empty fuel tanks.
Day-glow orange paint similar to those crews use to mark invetigation areas -- I'd guess it was done by one of the MTA crew that made the first tour through the tunnel to detail the damage when the first series of pictures was taken.
Many jobs have taken more money, but the Transit Authority said this 24/7 plan will be the fastest-paced project in the history of the subway system.
Except for actually building it.
It's an election year. Staten Islanders use the No. 1 train to and from South Ferry. Staten Islanders want the tunnel fixed as soon as possible. Staten Island is mainly Republican. Pataki needs a big Republican turnout in November to beat Cuomo or McCall. The tunnel should be ready just about Election Day.
Therefore: It will get completed on time, because there's an obvious political gain for both Pataki and Kalikow to get it completed on time. Motivation, motivation motivation...
Did anyone see the graphic showing two R44/46s with the old blue stripes in the IRT tunnel?
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2002-01-16/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-138371.asp
Yeah, I noticed that right away also, but I thought or LIRR M1's in the IRT tunnel, looking at that drawing!
Well, they said they needed to plug the tunnels after the collapse in case the bathtub gave way, so why not plug `em with a couple of R-44s? :-)
got back from Atlanta after a week. Marta was nice but they are in deep financial straits. After paying just $11.00 for a visitor five day pass (thanks to a convention in town of which I was not involved) The regular weekly fare is $13 which is still too cheap considering their base fare Is $1.75 and their pass is less tahn our unlimited card which is $17. I did get to ride in their new Breda cars- very nice!
Peggy also went and I'll post her pix later (via e-mail to Dave).
An interesting sidelight- MARTA has family connections to NYCT. Their CEO is the son of NYCT's Mr. Ford!
I hope you enjoyed your trip. Sorry about the delay in answering your email. For some reason I didn't recieve it until two days after you sent it.
Their CEO is the son of NYCT's Mr. Ford!
The MARTA website says his name with the Sr. suffix, is it really his son or dad?
MARTA finanical situation has been solved with a simple solution. Right now, by law, MARTA must spend 50/50 between capital and operational expenses. By changing the law to 55/45, MARTA has an extra $15 million for operations. The should change the law to allow MARTA spend whichever ratio is required.
I can get a university monthy card for only $37, while the regular price is $52.50. Thru work, I can get one for only $28!!
The Bredas are great. Those are the best looking subway cars I've seen. And I like how they display the destination inside the car when stopped at a station.
Yes, Your Mr. Ford (Jr)is the son of our Mr. Ford (Sr.).Recently, NYCT's employee publication For Your Service mentioned this fact.
I like the new announce which include places of interest at the station.
I am also glad you dropped the carpet in favor of the new fllors. The blue really goes well with the blue sidewalls and seat ends.
Hey Rob,
My monthly marta pass is $10.52 :)
i think that works out to about 20 cents a ride hahah
allen
Damn, you're lucky.
That makes me wonder if ANYONE pays full price.
I actually e-mailed them suggesting they raise the price of passes. I told them NYC charges $17 and $63 and our base fare is lower.
This one's required reading (with pictures in the print edition):
Daily News Exclusive: $1M-a-Day Fix for WTC Subway
See this thread here.
OK, I read the article, thanks for the link, now is there a test ?
Mr rt__:^)
All manhattan bound service was suspended at around 7:10 AM because of a 'sick customer' at Woodhaven. In my experience the only time they ever suspend service like that during the rush is because of a 12-9. Was that the case?
Is a 12-9 a disorderly passenger???
Stuart, RLine86Man
"Is a 12-9 a disorderly passenger???"
IIRC, it's a person run over by, or pinned under, a train.
According to the report I read, a 65 year old male jumped into the path of an arriving R train and was killed.
So you mean suicide?
No, actually he had aspirations to be a lemming.
does this explain the M train running the 4th avenue local to Bay Ridge this morning (I was picked up by one inbound at 9:20am at 45th Street)
Anyone know why W service got snarled on Monday morn along 4th ave? I got a railfan window on an M express 36th to Pacific, so it wasn't all bad.
Passenger rail a possibility, a freight tunnel will be fought to the death...and oh yeah, get those goddamned trucks off our roads!
http://www.silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/1011190504132457.xml
-Hank
Sounds like the only way the freight tunnel would come through SI would be if it was done with a tunnel all the way past Port Richmond and if it was the only way the city could also get funding for a North Shore line (it would be interesting if someone just ran the numbers on how much a bi-level freight/subway tunnel between SI and Brooklyn would cost, and floated up the possibility of a subway connection to the rest of the city as a trial balloon. It might get blasted down immediately, but it would get other parts of the island beside the North Shore into the argument).
$25 million per mile sounds very cheap.
Can we assume this will be a catenary-powered LRV-type line? The article seems to imply that the Port Authority would build and operate the passenger line (whether or not the freight tunnel happens) because that's where the money would come from.
The reporter did not contact MTA for comment.
Interesting article. If a North Shore light rail line is built, it seems inevitable that SIRT would be switch to LR too.
Are there LRV's which run efficiently on third rail, or would the TA have to replace the direct current substations with AC substations and catenary?
I don't think so...the system here in Calgary and Edmonton both run on overhead line.
-J!
The Docklands system in London is third rail
Here in Philadelphia, SEPTA's route 100 light rail line runs on a third rail.
Mark
You're right! Forgot about that...
How about runing the H - B Light Rail Over Bayonne Brigde ad connecting with the SIRT North Shore Line?
It would have to be a tunnel since the North Shore Line goes underneath the Bayonne Bridge...the amount of decline will be very large if you connect to the North Shore Line from the bridge. There will be a NIMBY object (literally) because they build houses adjacent to the North Shore ROW. They will look out the window and see the tracks directly. I took pics of the North Shore line, but I haven't posted them online
$100 to $200 Million to restore North Shore rail service sounds like a bargain. That figure can't be right. Those rails have been dead for far too long. If that is the correct number, then do it! We're spending that much to rebuild one station in Manhattan!
Are any of the underwater tunnels of the IRT (A) division built to Dual Contract specifications.
We know segments of the subway and elavated portions are with platform extenders along the edges of the platforms.
Anyone out there know about the tubes?
avid
I was @ East Broadway station in Monday night-Tuesday Morning with my work train. Well my partner told me that someone was taking picter of the train. This was about 12:30am. I just am wondering that all.
Robert
i guess Not.
Robert
now that Cortlandt street station is out of commission, does anyone know the best way to get to 18 Washington street from Jamaica Center Via E or J? hit me back and i plan to go on friday
J to Broad, walk down Broad (5 min. walk) then over via Battery Place; or
J to Canal or Brooklyn Bridge, transfer to 4/5 to Bowling Green to Battery Place
Take the J train to Chanbers St-Brooklyn Bridge, change for the 4 or 5 to Bowling Green. Take the stairway behind the booth to the street. Walk west on Battery Place past the entrance to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel to Washubfton St and make a right.
When I went there in 1993, I found that Rector St. on the N/R was closer than Cortland.
Yabbut neither the E nor the J go to Rector. I figured the O.P. meant the E terminal at W.T.C. and called it Cortlandt like the 1/9 and N/R stations at W.T.C.
True, but if he's coming from Jamaica, he can transfer to the Broadway line from the E or J/Z.
Are push-pull trains better then Mu's? MUs accelerate faster then push pulls since every car has a motor. I heard that push pull trains, since only the locomotive is live car on the train, they are cheaper to maintain. I think someone posted a message saying that coaches on push pull trains are not under intense FRA inspection since unlike a MU train, not every car is consider a locomotive. I'm not sure but I remember something faintly similar.
Yes, that's true (about the inspections). It's also cheaper for transit agencies that have both diesel and electric operation like New Jersey Transit; the same coaches can be used with either type of locomotive. (Or even Amtrak who will use different types of power on the same train consist.) Also, operations like Amtrak need to have different types of coaches (sleepers, diners, etc); cheaper to design them without power and use whatever loco is necessary. Plus operations like Amtrak will add boxcars for mail/express and baggage, would you spend the money to make them electric? You would have to, if the rest of your consist were MU, to make sure you didn't overburden the motors on the powered portion of the consist. So, it's just not practical in many operations to use MUs, any longer.
Like the EPs R137. Double power...no dynamic braking. CI Peter
EPs are R-127 or R-134. Both have SCM-1 propulsion packages. Why is there no dynamic brake?
I was told the dynamic brake package on the EPs was turned off so as to allow for better stopping with the flatcars of garbage containers and to provide better torque in motion. We get em in regular for brake shoe replacement.....nothing like a group box missing all that Redbird style LVDC contact crap with a pinball machine CPU displaying error codes. Hey, what do I know but what they teach me.......I remain stupid but eager. God Bless, CI Peter
I believe the crews turn the dynamic brake off in the mistaken belief that the EP's stop better without dynamic brake. Just another RTO misconception.
Could someone give an explaination of dynamic braking? I think it has something to do with converting the energy of the train in motion to electric power and putting that power back into the third rail. Am I in the ballpark? How does the power go back to the 3rd rail, does it have to be a greater voltage than the 600dc of the 3rd rail, or a higher amperage?
I'm not too good with electicity, but I have some concepts of basics.
Thanks
What you describe is called REGENERATIVE braking. Dynamic braking differs in that the electricity is dissipated by converting it to heat in a grid of resistors.
In any case, in both systems, the motors are turned into generators, the energy from the motion is converted into electricity.
Regenerative braking only works if there's another train on that section of third rail drawing power. Otherwise the regenerative braking would not work.
Whatever the Dyn. Brake setting is, I have never seen a condition on the EPs where all eight shoes are shot and have to be replaced. You know better than I that the EPs are modified for heavy work service....and their brake package works better than my R142s (check out the new work orders on the Bombardier when you get a chance.)
First pick was AOK!!!!! Lost my position at 239th 'troubles' BUT moved into 180th 'troubles' with M/F 7/3 RDO S/S with my signals partner. I may still have limited experience overall but when #5 starts running the R142 I may be the lead tech...a really good start for someone my age. God Bless All. CI Peter
Congrats, guy! Looks like you're moving on up and if you get to drag along a buddy, all the better ...
Got in with TWO buddies!!!! 180th crews work a lot harder but we have R142 experience and if Engine Brakes crew finishes soon, we will all be in great shape in the same location with the best hours. Been doing carboidy...easist job going now because parts are in short supply. CI Peter
Heh. Only in the TA for HOW long? And you've already got yer own posse? I'm proud of ya, son. :)
And hard work goes a LOT faster than sitting on a bench. I'm certain you'll be happy on all counts and it looks like them 142's will make the day go by in a breeze.
I still think of my first day walking in the barn....'Lord, where have you placed me?' I never knew I had the aptitude for this work and I think the TA is missing out in so many ways. The best is to come...switching crews means the slightly senior will have to solicite amongst themselves or go to supervision for bailouts because they have NOT LEARNED THEIR WORK!!! Thankyou SelkirkTMO. CI Peter
De nada, bro ... I saw the same shiftings 30 years ago as many struggled to pick where the cars they knew were going. :)
"First pick was AOK!!!!! Lost my position at 239th 'troubles' BUT moved into 180th 'troubles' with M/F 7/3 RDO S/S "
The fact that you were able to pick that job with those hours and days off with your seniority should tell you something.
It does..and I'll need to learn a little more in foreign languages .....and you know who my new 'big boss' is on site because your influence amde him a better TA employee too!!! CI Peter
It does..and I'll need to learn a little more in foreign languages .....and you know who my new 'big boss' is on site because your influence made him a better TA employee too!!! CI Peter
Dosen't the EP cars suppose to have a Ant-slip feture on them. I know that the night I had them thee wheel were sliping os mush going up some hill, exp. the one from the W to Stillwell Ave. It caused me to gap over the switches.
Robert
No anti slip feature I know of....just the solid state group box package and more motor power for low end torque. Unlike the garbage trucks I used to service (radio comm) years ago, I notice NO SMELL in the cab...safe for you T/Os if the shift is OK. CI Peter
MUs ROCK!
In Robert Caro's "The Power Brokers" he states that before the first World's Fair of '39-'40 Flushing Meadows was a huge garbage dump with freight trains hauling tons of garbage every day from Brooklyn. That got my curiosity. Anyone know anything about those trains such as the route. I can only assume that maybe they used the Bay Ridge Line to the main Line tracks in either LIC or Woodside then the Port Washington Branch to Flushing Meadows. Anyone know for sure? Caro was too busy bashing RM that he never got into any details.
I don't know about the route but in the book " Subway To The World's Fair" by Frederick A. Kramer, it's stated that the furnace ashe was trucked to Bay Ridge where it was loaded onto gondolas andsent via the LIRR to the World's Fair site. (pg. #7) No quantity was given but there were two trainloads sent each day.
That's pretty much what Caro said in The Power Brokers.
The story that I recall was that it was ash that was dumped
there, not garbage. That area was known as the Corona ash pits.
The dumping was up at the north end of the swamp. The southern
reaches where Willow Lake and Meadow Lake are now (both were
man-made by widening the existing course of the Flushing
River) was largely undisturbed wetland. The ash pits are
described in "The Great Gatsby", though the name is fictionalized.
According to Caro the ash was incinerated garbage from Brooklyn brought by train each day.
Incinerated garbage? OK, that sounds plausible. I never heard
an explanation of where the ash came from, and I always assumed
it was furnace ash.
Quoting from page 1082 of The Power Broker (the first pg of chapter 47-The Great Fair):
"Although the meadows were city-owned 'park land', for years the Forty Thieves on the city's old Board of Alderman had allowed Fishhooks' Brooklyn Ash Removal Company to use them as a gigantic dump for the burning of the garbage of all Brooklyn; by the 1920's, 110 railroad carloads off the off-scourings of the borough of Churches, transported on private railroad tracks used exclusively by Fishhooks' firm, were being dumped daily onto the meadows, and a once beautiful marshland was covered with foothills of filth..."
I wonder where the private tracks were and what the route was. Caro also quotes the passage in The Great Gatsby that you mentioned.
Private tracks? Perhaps the sidings of the LIRR main line
were private, but an entire railroad from Brooklyn to Queens
just to haul ash? That would be an interesting research item.
Are you intimating that railroads today are slow? You DID say that back then, a railroad could "haul ash" ... sorry, couldn't help myself. :)
And the R-1/9s could howl ass.:-)
According to Kramer, the ash was from coal used to heat Brooklyn homes. It was picked up curbside by truck and taken to bay ridge where it was loaded onto railcars. He goes on to say that the practice continued until 1934.
On the PW line on the LIRR and on the main line for that matter, near Woodside, there is a overpass which seems to me, used to carry rail traffic. Its rusted out and part of its missing. Any idea what that was used for? Doens't seem to connect to the LIRR. There is also a long overpass over Queens Blvd on a arch type bridge.
Could be for the connection from the Hell Gate Bridge line to the LIRR, which branches off to the east at the BQE from the line that goes into Penn Station.
Could be for the connection from the Hell Gate Bridge line to the LIRR, which branches off to the east at the BQE from the line that goes into Penn Station.
I think that's the line that Howard's talking talking about, at Winfield right where the Port Wash line branches off from the Main Line. But I didn't think Its rusted out and part of its missing. Don't Amtrak trains use that line to go to New England?
>> But I didn't think Its rusted out and part of its missing. <<
One of the overpasses over Queens Blvd had trees growing from it the last time I looked-- it can't be well-used. Maybe that's the one he has in mind.
The arched bridge over Queens Boulevard between the two LIRR trestles carries freight trains only. That's on the Connecting Railroad that goes from Hell Gate through Queens and Brooklyn to Bay Ridge. It does have a connection to the LIRR Montauk Branch on the Middle Village-Ridgewood-Glendale border, right next to Metro Mall.
Amtrak trains from New England use the Hell Gate Bridge and viaduct through Astoria and then branches off southwest towards the Sunnyside yards just west of the western leg of the BQE between the GCP and 30th Avenue. It does cross Northern Boulevard and Broadway on a similarly dramatic concrete bridge.
You're right Howard, and I stand corrected. The one Amtrack uses branches off at Sunnyside and goes to the Hell Gate Bridge. The second one, that crosses Queens Blvd and the LIRR Main line near Winfield, only carries freight and goes from Fresh Pond to the Hell Gate Bridge. The two lines meet at about 50th St and 25th Ave.
That's the line from the Hells Gate bridge to Frenont Yd. in Maspeth.
I love the metro system, and i rode it constantly when i lived in dc a few years ago, but i came up with some thoughts on some system expansion.
YELLOW LINE:
-instead of a heavy rail line, use the yellow line as a light-rail type of thingy. Use LRV's in the tunnels running on catenary. To compensate for the slight decrease in passenger capacity to and from VA, make all Blue Line trains run 6-cars all times.
-After Mt. Vernon Sq, yellow trains continue in a separate tunnel till about 11th and P NW, where they will emerge through a portal. Run on P street West to Logan Circle, and construct a station there.
-Turn around Logan Circle, and head north on 13th street.
-Make a free transfer at U street to the Green Line heavy-rail subway.
-continue north on 13th until Euclid.
-West on Euclid with a stop for Meridian Hill Park.
-head SW for about a block on Columbia Rd, and build an Adams Morgan Station at the columbia, calvert, and 18th intersection.
-West on Calvert, across the Ellington Bridge, and make a free transfer on Connecticut Av. for the Woodley Park metro station (red line) which is a half-block up the street.
-COntinue NW on Calvert until you eventually reach the cathedral, and build a stop there.
-Turn south on Wisconsin and make a stop in the Glover park area, up by the observatory.
-Continue south on Wisconsin and build a station at R street (north georgetown)
-A few blocks further down, a station around M and Wisocnsin.
-Turn West on M street, and build a stop around 34th to serve Georgetown University students.
-South on the Key bridge, into Roslyn. End the line at a loop around the Roslyn metro station, with a free transfer.
Metro originally planned for a station in Adams Morgan on the red line, but that plan got shot down somewhere along the line. Adams morgan is the densest neighborhood in the city and needs some rail access. Since boring a new tunnel between Dupont circle and Woodley Park would cost at least a billion dollars, this way would be much cheaper. It would also bring much-needed access to areas such as Logan Circle, meridian Hill park, the Cathedral/Glover park, and georgetown.
Any Thoughts????
I like it. I like it a lot. It tickles both my affinity for mass transit and my trolley fancy. Perhapse we don't need the Virginia part, but the line in the district would make a lot of sense, although sharing the ROW with trucks and cars would probably make the line no faster than a bus. When I lived on M Street near the Key Bridge, it sure was a pain in the ass to walk across it to Roslyn to catch the Metro. When the plans were made for the subway, Georgetownians fought vigorously against a stop anywhere in their neighborhood, even though only a slight alteration in alignment of the Blue/Orange Potomac tunnel would have resulted in a station on K Street if not right at M and Wisconsin (and why not one near the university, while we're at it). Times have changed. Now Georgetownians are looking to the Metro to solve their traffic congestion, and plans are farther along than ever for a stop in Georgetown. (Information source? Trains, Railpace, or Railway Age - I get mixed up since I see them all every month.) BTW, in G-town there are still rails on O and P streets, still cobblestoned and signs, "Caution - Streetcar Tracks", even though no streetcars have run there for decades. Buses now traverse these residential blocks.
I picked up this item in 1967 when I worked for Hagstrom. It was a spoiled press sheet--for example, the legend (outside the view) was never printed and one of the color plates may be missing. I'm only showing a portion to avoid possible copyright issues.
Anyway, this was during the era of the TA's diagrammatic map when Hagstrom was trying to reconcile the new (pre-Chrystie) lettering system and other changes with their traditional map. This was printed the same size and style and probably from the same master board as the maps Hagstrom used to print for the Board of Transportation. It was printed one side only. I had it hanging over my light table to inspire my own ideas for a subway map.
Notice that it introduces the letters (T, TT) on the map itself. I'm particularly interested in Hagstrom's attempt at "color naming" the divisions, The Red Line, The Blue Line, The Green Line and The Black Line.
Has anyone seen the finished version of this? It isn't the same size as the folding subway maps Hagstrom sold in their shop (they were bigger). Was it used for a promotion, like free maps from a bank?
Considering it shows the Rockaway line, I'd say it came out in or after 1956. Probably 1958 since it shows the Mott Ave-Far Rockaway stop. If you say it shows the Chrystie Line then I guess it is a 1968 map.
What it might be is a map that Hagstrom was preparing for 1968. But TA never chose to use it. You have a rare map that was never meant for use.
To add to the mystery, I have a 1967 Hagstrom pocket atlas which does not refer to the divisions by name colors. Also, it has the IND in yellow.
I have a well-worn Hagstrom's subway map which uses the same colors as your example, plus it includes IRT numbers except for the 3rd Ave. el. It also shows the same BMT letter markings for the Southern Division only. I only wish I hadn't completely blacked out the Jamaica express and Broadway-Brooklyn local descriptions. Dumb move.
Hagstrom generally used two consistent marking schemes for the divisions. In color, it was red for the IND (for its socialist origins ;-) ), blue for the IRT and yellow or green for the BMT.
Then there was a monocolor scheme for applications like the Yellow Pages, where a map appeared with each edition. IND was solid color, IRT was grey, BMT was alternating bands of black and clear, like a thick dashed, Elevateds were always thing black lines, whether BMT or IND.
Any variant of those would be a rarity, I think.
Hagstrom changed the BMT to green in order to be able to display the Southern Division letters, as on the map sample a few posts back. Previous to that time, the BMT had always been shown as yellow. Hagstrom used the same basic map back to about 1932, until they replaced it with the one currently available.
Bob Sklar
I remember seeing maps like this in the mid-60s. They were distributed by banks (I forget which ones), and usually the reverse side was entirely advertising for the bank which distributed it.
I believe one of them (maybe Citibank?) even had the locations of bank's branches shown on the front side.
-- Ed Sachs
Back than Citibank was called First National Bank of New York. Then they changed their name to First National City Bank.
I have a 1967 map and this looks like a pre 1967 map.
Though the letters that correspond to the IND lines are the ones used in 1967(Pre November).
It looks ver similar to this map from Irving trust:
I'm not sure of the year of this one but it say - F Broadway at 40th. Street - Opening mid 1966.
More pictures
F Broadway at 40th. Street - Opening mid 1966
Note: The F is the map location, NOT the F train.
Yeah, same idea. Hagstrom was still supplying subway maps for industry after they were no longer the official map. Probably rarely or not at all, now.
Someone posted about a test train of R 62As coming to the 7 line. NO its not here yet. Any further news about it when should we look for it?
The big shuffle is taking place NOW. My 239th yard is staking out it's Rebirds...180th is doing the same. Word had it that cream of boid would be served on #7....today on #5 carboidy I am beginning to doubt it. EngineBrakes crew is doing bookoo work.....how many boid bodies would a shoulder fired missle go through end doors before it detonates??? Redbirds have served remarkable duty and deserve a remarkable burial at sea. CI Peter
1, please.
send the 142s please ...
SPLOOOSH!
You're having WAY too much fun, bro ... now polish up that anticlimber so she can make another trip. Heh.
the last of the all usa built cars ...
replaced by transverse cab not made in the usa ...
Looks more like a kersplash to me.:-)
Close the big font html. The responses hurt my eyes!!!
Sorry about that. I promise that won't happen again :-)
Shoulda left the tag open and made Sarge BLIND. :)
Sorry of someone posted this already. I couldn't find it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/16/obituaries/16DOBR.html
Here's another from Newsday.
Makes me think: We do a lot of talking here at Subtalk about what could be done to improve the mass transit situation in the NYC Metropolitan area, and I think a lot of our ideas are pretty good. But here's a guy who actually got those in positions of authority to notice!
Today's trip on the LIAR went off w/o a hitch. Since Pigs was no longer comming I moved the time frame up and caught the 7:40 NJT Express from Hamelton to Pig Station. There was an initial shock of bad news when I saw that Amtrak had converted LINCOLN interlocking from penumatic to electric operation. From there I caught the 9:01 LIAR train to Babylon. We were slightly delayed getting under way, but once we cleared C interlocking we were off through the East River Tubes. The main line between HAROLD and JAY still had its block signals on wonderful 4 track signal bridges. Unfortunately, every other line I traveled on had had their wayside block signals removed, trains proceeding on cab signal indications. It was good to finally see how the LIAR system worked with all its diverging routes. I saw most of the famous LIAR towers including HAROLD, JAY, HALL, VALLEY, DUNTON, BROOK, DIVIDE, NASSAU, BABYLON, B and QUEENS. They still had signals at interlockings and I was heartened to see BRAND NEW position light installations (notably at DIVIDE). I also made note of the switch machines. While most of the lager plants are penumatically worked, many of the smaller interlockings have been comverted to US&S M3 electric machines. NASSAU interlocking appears to have both types of machine. After visiting Babylon I made a quick stop for Pizza and hopped on the next train westbound to Jamacia. Arriving just in time to miss a Ronkonkoma train, I laid over for an hour photographing the movements through HALL and ovserving how double slip switches worked. On the Ronkonkoma Line I was surprised to find that the line became single tracked and quite rural. The mythic parking lots of Ronkonkoma were even larger than I had imagined and even contained a parking structure. I had a camera malfunction right before I got on my Ronkonkoma train, but I was able to fix it while I laid over at the terminus. My final leg on the LIAR was a connection to Flatbush Terminal. The hi-lite was 80mph speeds through the Atlantic Ave tunnel and block signals in place from East New York to Flatbush. I was astounded as to how flimsey the Atlantic Ave. elevated looked and the fact thatthere were no railings or guard rails present. From the LIAR i transfered to a railing N train. I was lucky and got a slant. I rode the N to 14th St. where I did a sneaker trasfer to the H&M station at 14th St. I got to ride the new service direct to Newark Pig Station where I caught 5:19 express to Hamelton.
>>From there I caught the 9:01 LIAR train to Babylon<<
The 9:01 is a local and booring one at that. At 9:31 is a Babylon express that according to the schedule doesn't stop at Freeport like the others. There was 11:03 and a 12:03 express from Babylon to Jamaica. Not sure if which one runs on the Babylon Line or the Central Branch through Hicksville.
If you wanted to futz around a bit, you could have taken a Babylon Local to Massapequa (my home station) and go downstairs and take LI Bus route N-81 which passes the Ronkonkoma Branch at Bethpage, this saves the trip back to Jamaica.
Oh well, there will other times.
Bill "Newkirk"
Due to new customs regulations, the delays to Amtrak's International have been so severe that now only a few dozen people ride the train into Canada. Even w/ this level of ridership the train can take hours to clear customs. Taking recomendations from the state of Michigan, Amtrak plans to cut back the train to Port Huron and rename it the "Bluewater".
What about the Niagara-Toronto run (whatever it's called)?
Are they going to COMPLETELY abandon the border cross service??
Stuart, RLine86Man
Samething with the NYC-Montreal run?
This train (#63/64) is called the Maple Leaf. A popular radio station here in Buffalo advertises Amtrak "getaways" to Toronto. I hope they don't eliminate it.
< Amtrak plans to cut back the train to Port Huron and rename it the "Bluewater". >
That is nothing more than a recomendation by Michigan ARP to Michigan DOT about the International at this point. Amtrak has no plan at this time. They could well decide to extend a Detroit train to thru-run with a Windsor trains as a solution.
Due to a computer glitch at TA timekeeping, all TA RTO hourly workers in both the A and B divisions who worked on Saturday, January 12 will be paid 10 hours for the day. This is because overtime, exception time and penalty time was unable to be entered in the payroll system. This will be in our next check on Thursday, January 17.
An adjustment for 1/12 will be reflected in the following check on Thursday, January 31. Any overpayment will be deducted out of the 1/31 check, and any underpayment (wage shortage) will be paid out on the 1/31 check.
RTO Hourly Employees who did not work on January 12 will not be affected.
Please notify your fellow employees about this.
That just great. I work all most three hour OT that day with my Work Train. Now hope they get this right, by not taking to must out of my next pay check.
Robert
If you worked 3 hours OT on Saturday, then the TA actually owes you an hour. On your Jan.31 check, you'll get the hour with nothing else deducted.
Also there was another payroll glitch where the current Night Differential rate of $1.49 was actually paid at around $1.60+. Not everyone was paid like this. If you were overpaid, the TA will eventually find out and make deductions there. If you were paid at the $1.49 rate, you got what you are entitled to.
I got a 4:06 late clear on top of my 8:50 which equals 14:59 for the day. I know they will screw it up.
From what I have seen today, most C/R's and T/O's who worked on Saturday, Jan.12 got paid a total of 10 hours for the day, in most cases a 2 hour overpayment.
HOWEVER, MOST RTO WORKERS WHO DID NOT WORK ON SATURDAY WERE STILL PAID 10 HOURS FOR THE DAY. THEREFORE, YOU WILL HAVE 10 HOURS DEDUCTED FROM YOUR NEXT CHECK ON JANUARY 31!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Advice: Take the $200 or so overpayment and put it somewhere and do not touch it until the next check comes out since that $200 is what you will be shorted. Otherwise, you could be in for some $$$ troubles.
The following are the scheduled induction classes for promotionals and new hires for the first half of 2002. ALL classes in all titles will have the option of choosing the A or B division (subject to change).
Conductor:
February 4-- 30 students
March 18-- 40 students
April 22-- 40 students
June 3-- 30 students
Train Operator (open competitive):
March 25-- 60 students
June 3-- 20 students
Tower Operator:
January 21-- 5 students
February 4-- 8 students
February 25-- 8 students
April 1-- 6 students
May 13-- 4 students
Assistant Train Dispatcher:
February 4-- 4* students (tentative)
Yard Dispatcher:
February 11-- 4* students (tentative)
Train Dispatcher:
May 27-- 12 students
July 8-- 8 students
ZMAN: I need to know what number up to on Conductor? My list number for Conductor is #3399.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
IMHO, that number is very high. They probably won't reach you. Just my opinion from past observations.
Peace,
ANDEE
B"H
does this mean that they're hiring? i.e. open hire from outside the TA?
No.
Peace,
ANDEE
How does one sign up for the C/R exam??? (There was no mention of hires in the MTA website)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Pick up or subscribe to the civil service newspaper called The Chief ( I believe it comes out weekly). It is the best source of upcoming exam notifications.
Peace,
ANDEE
These are for people who have ALREADY taken and passed the requisite tests and have a list number from a certified list .
A while back I was able to obtain a July 18, 1879 issue of the New York Herald which had an article about the opening of the Sea Beach line. Here is the article in two pages, some of which is overlapping.
Warning to those of you with slow connections - the files are 300K and 200K.
Page 1
Page 2
>>A while back I was able to obtain a July 18, 1879 issue of the New York Herald which had an article about the opening of the Sea Beach line<<
Sea Beach Fred probably remembers this !
Bill "Newkirk"
Sea Beach Fred probably remembers this !
He was probably riding the cow-catcher on the inaugural run!
The average running time from the foot of Manhattan has increased slightly in 122 years. It has also increased between 59th St and Coney Island.
Thanks for posting that, Bob.
I hope Fred doesn't feel slighted that the articles devote space to Messrs. Breslin & Sweet. Those gents were the proprietors of the Hotel Brighton.
As long as my Sea Beach gets is due, I'm perfectly generous to share the glory with others.
As long as my Sea Beach gets it's due, I'm perfectly generous to share the glory with others.
Just scanning through the MTA website and came upon these interesting items.
Contract# R34156 calls for the purchase of nine diesel-electric engines to replace Some R-37 and R-41 diesles and a couple of Speno engines.
I wonder if the old diesel geezers will go out for scrap, maybe auctioned off to some railroad who may need a switcher or a railfan who didn't have the room to buy and store an ALCO C-420 !!! OKAY SubTalkers, place your bids and good luck.
Also this item:
Contract #E33804 calls for rehabbing station lighting on the Archer Avenue (3 stations) and 63rd St (3 stations) Lines. Work also calls for replacement of tunnel lighting.
Hmmm......Gee, aren't these stations rather new as far as lighting goes ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Fair market value of those locomotives (R37,R41) would be north of $50K each if they run, 100K+, refurbished.--- I mean GE switchers with 26L Air and Catalytic Converters, N*I*C*E but too expensive for most foamers.
Yes, but even so, the lighting was installed long before the tunnels opened for business, as well as before the TA started switching over to more efficient (and much brighter) lighting.
-Hank
NOOOO!!!!!!! I like the lighting style in those stations. I also like regular fluorescent better than compact fluorescent. Oh, well.
Can't the bulbs be cleaned of the steel dust, or changed out for more efficient bulbs?
I agree the tunnel tube florescent bulbs will need a fixture change to accommodate the lower wattage screw-in type.
avid
>>Can't the bulbs be cleaned of the steel dust, or changed out for more efficient bulbs?<<
If you're talking about the platform florescent tubes, yes I guess they can do that. The contract is kind of vague as to what station lighting is to be replaced. At 63rd/Lex, the lights are built into the ceiling and had translucent panels. Maybe this setup will be changed, though I myself am not sure.
>>I agree the tunnel tube florescent bulbs will need a fixture change to accommodate the lower wattage screw-in type.<<
Yes, that's because the older incandescent type works on the old 600V system. The new fixtures have chrome reflectors and hoods unlike the old lighting fixtures.
There are four types of tunnel lighting on the subway. Older incandescent, florescent, mercury vapor and compact florescent. The latter will eventually replace the first three due to reduced energy costs.
Bill "Newkirk"
From The Chief-Leader/Mark Daly:
>>>>>>>Safety Warning
A battery explosion on a new-generation subway car that injured three maintenance workers has prompted NYCT to warn it's employees and issue new safety procedures.
A steel box sheltering a battery underneath a new R142 subway car exploded December 30 during a maintenance check at the E.180 St. Maintenance Shop the agency confirmed last week. The force of the blast set the building's steel ceiling beams to rattling, workers on the scene later said .
>>>>>>Bleeding, Hearing Woes
The Car Inspector who opened the box, the foreman who was standing behind him, and a third Car Inspector who was nearby complained of problems with their hearing. Two of the employees were bleeding from the ears, and were treated at a hospital and released.
"We suspect the battery was overcharged, and the overcharging caused a buildup of hydrogen gas in the box" which somehow ignited when the box was opened, said TA spokesman Al O'Leary. He likened the incident to the explosion of a car battery.
To ensure adequate ventilation, the contractors who produced the R142 cars have been ordered to open the battery boxes outside the repair barn before the car is hauled in for maintenance by NYCT personnel.
An identical battery box installed on a R110 exploded Dec 11 while it was awaiting servicing, but no one was injured. The explosion ripped the stainless steel battery box apart and blew it's door across the shop.
NYCT said a similar explosion while either car was in service would not pose a danger to riders, other than the noise of the blast. "Passengers would be protected by the train and the platform," Mr. O'Leary said. "It would be loud".
An opposing view came from TWU Local 100, which represents the injured Car Inspectors. "It's a danger to the public because they haven't come up with a reason why it's happening". said Neil Persaud, a union Vice President.
The union's safety department has requested that all R142's be pulled from service until the cause is determined.
The union said about 430 of the new R142's are now in service. Another 140 are in storage or undergoing testing at rail yards in the city.
Two words ... "VENT" "HOLES" ... something tells me there aren't any in the undercar boxes or the hydrogen would have been able to seep out of the box as to be too low in concentration to be explosive. Since hydrogen wants to rise anyway, those holes could be on the top side of the boxes ...
You read my mind.
Helmets, rubber gloves, face shields and aprons. Meet CI Peter, the Doktor Frankenstein of nickel cadmium potassium hydroxide wet storage cells. Anyone on here with 'pointy shoes?' CI Peter
This is fantastic.
One can easily forsee the utter chaos that would ensue if this happened to an in-service train, especially if at a platform. The immediate reaction by most will be that it's a bomb, with many people stampeding, screaming, etc etc.
They better find a way to vent them things!
Easily done. All they need to do is remove the batteries and drill two rows small holes a few millimetres in diamater every so often on the walls of the battery cabinet near the top so that the hydrogen gas, which is lighter than air, can escape. A small number of holes around the bottom might be a good idea as well to permit replacement air can enter the cabinet.
-Robert King
Look............trainsets have used NiCads for how long??? The TA is looking out for us....read into this mess....crown the bowl with a serious BIE....and think flexibly. Nuff said
I have no idea why they're not using lead acid batteries. We haven't had any problems with battery explosions on any of our subway rolling stock here going all the way back to 1954.
-Robert King
Because lead-acid cells SUCK, that's why. They have to be
changed every 5 years and they do not like being overcharged
or over discharged. Nickel batteries with KOH electrolyte
have a number of advantages in railway service. We have a
former IRT supply car, #53, at the Branford museum. It has
Edison cells (Nickel-Iron) for backup lighting. After having
sat for over 20 years without being charged, when we turned on
the switch, the lights came on! The only reason lead-acids
are used in automotive applications and on most PCC cars is
because they have a superior peak amperage per unit volume.
The only reason lead-acids are used in automotive applications and on most PCC cars is because they have a superior peak amperage per unit volume.
Lead-acids also have superior low temperature performance to either Edison Cells or NiCad's.
Nickel batteries with KOH electrolyte have a number of advantages in railway service.
NiCad's have a lot more problems than Edison Cells. Edison Cells do not exhibit cell reversal nor memory. The latter requires that NiCad's be completely discharged periodically.
Let's just send out a few huge bulk orders for lemons and zinc and copper electrodes and be done with it.
-Robert King
100 amp/hour nicad cells in continuous service don't exhibit the problems associated with hand-held radio or consumer applications. CI Peter
I'm not sure why, but those larger NiCd cells (like the
ED-80 batteries used in NYCT) do not have a problem with
memory and they work fine being floated and having many
shallow discharge cycles. They don't seem to develop memory
such as is experienced with consumer-grade cells. Perhaps it
has something to do with the electrolye. The larger batteries
use a water-base electrolyte, not a paste.
I have not seen a schematic of any TA battery system but it would appear all simply have switchable parallel connections to the DC inverter and no current regulation of any kind while charging
I would expect that the inverter supply would have a series or shunt regulator to the terminals that go to the battery stacks. Separate connection or do they go hardwire straight to the buss?
Haven't had a chance to check my R142 electric schematics but after talking with a Dep Sup and comparing DVM readings, looks like batteries go to bus with 400 amp DC breaker...will ask what Klixon temp sensors connect with. CI Peter
Heh. Sounds like the days of the whirlygigs all over again. There was a failure mode on the R1/9's where a relay would busticate and when a car gapped, the compressor would try to run BACKWARDS off the batteries. NOT a pretty sight. Especially when the 600 came back. :)
Lead-acid batteries vent hydrogen. NiCad's do not. Most NiCad's are sealed. They have a pressure relieving vent to guard against an overcharge. This vent also guards against heat generated due to excessive drain.
When a NiCad is overcharged it does not give off hydrogen, it gives off heat. When the electrolytes are heated they expand. If this heat cannot be dissipated to the surrounding atmosphere, then you have a bomb.
The way this problem is handled in most chargers is to charge at a very low rate:C/16 - C/4, where C is the battery capacity in ampere-hours. The heat buildup within the cells can dissipate through the case to atmosphere.
It is possible to charge a NiCad in 20 minutes - at a 3C rate. Such chargers use a thermal cutoff to turn off the charger, when the battery temperature rises. This temperature rise indicates that the battery is fully charged. Such chargers and batteries are not available for consumer applications.
Now, if they are using NiCad's in the R142's, then placing hydrogen vent holes at the top of the battery compartment will NOT help because hydrogen buildup is not the problem.
If they are really using lead-acid batteries - why? They're a maintenance headache in a rapid transit application. The rapid transit battery of choice had been the Edison Cell or a Nickel-Iron battery. This secondary battery had the advantage of a nearly infinite number of charge-discharge cycles over an extremely long lifetime - 50+ years. Ni-Cad's are limited to around 1000 cycles. The Edison Cell's chief disadvantage has been poor low temperature performance. However, this performance is also mimicked by NiCad's.
They are nicad cells....and if the gas vented off during charge/discharge is not hydrogen/oxygen....there is more to all of this.
I'll have to look up the reactions later. Nickel Iron and Nickel
Cadmium cells, at least the type used in transit, do gas when
too much current goes through them. I've personally witnessed it
and I've seen written cautions about it. I'm not sure now if
the gas is H2 or H2O, but if you look into the cell (the walls
are plastic) you can see the tiny bubbles rising.
Lead acid cells were used on the earliest battery systems,
such as the BU cars produced 1900-1906. Once Edison Cells
were commercialized, they replaced the lead acids. B2H and B4H
sizes were common on LoVs, R1-9s, D types, ABs, etc. Most
of the SMEE cars were delivered with Edison cells, but at some
point the TA started switching to NiCd. They were also made by
the Edison Storage Cell company, model ED-80 (80 amp hours).
Now, I've been out of the game for a while, and CI Peter says
they're using a different brand of 100 Amp hour batteries today.
Incidentally the recommended charge rate for these batteries
is C/10.
And the question has come up about the voltage across the Saif battery assembly.....38.3 volts to be exact with the car bugged. A design flaw? There is a battery breaker.....400 amps DC. Much is being explored by greater minds than ours. CI Peter
And the question has come up about the voltage across the Saif battery assembly.....38.3 volts to be exact with the car bugged.
The nominal voltage for a NiCad cell is 1.2 volts. The initial voltage is 1.32, the average voltage is 1.22 and the final voltage is 1.10.
My guess is that they are using 1.25 volts and 30 cells to make up 37.5 volts. That works out to 1.28 volts per cell. It also means that the batteries are kept pretty close to full charge.
Unless things have changed since the days when I had my head
in battery boxes, they use 25 cells and a system voltage of 37.5
volts. The battery floats on the motor-generator, ooops, I mean
the inverter. With the old Edison cell batteries, it was 24 cells.
"The battery floats on the motor-generator, ooops, I mean
the inverter."
Ooops, you mean the converter. Inverter is DC to AC.
Yes, sorry, the "static" converter. Except now the politically
correct term is the LVPS
Boids still have a breaker labeled 'motor-generator' or something in that venue. Point is that it was only ONE R142.....I am in full agreement with TAs 'plans.'
The R-42 was the first car delivered to the TA equiped with a Static (DC-DC) converter. Prior to that R-10 and up had Motor Generators. They were removed and converters were installed during the various overhaul programs. Before the R-10s, trickle chargers were used.
That should answer a lot of posters questions about overcharging. When one of the Dep Sups went around with the TA engineers with his TA issue DVM and asked me for another meter, he was surprised to be handed a lab grade Fluke # 27. The difference in measurement was 1/10th of a volt. I asked if anyone had an alignment tool to drop the VR board down a little bit. They just look at me 'bug eyed.' I leave these problems to our engineering department...someone told me I have more experience and get paid far more than our engineers...I remain silent in these matters and 'OnTheJuice.' CI Peter
When one of the Dep Sups went around with the TA engineers with his TA issue DVM and asked me for another meter, he was surprised to be handed a lab grade Fluke # 27. The difference in measurement was 1/10th of a volt.
Is there a calibration sticker on the TA supplied DVM's?
NO!!!!!!!! What I find with calibration stickers is a disgrace to metrology departments everywhere. Only recently did I see trip and shoe beam gauges collected for calibration and what was returned is truly poor engineering. I had been given a lot of flack about bringing along my own test equipment and special tools...just guess who's asked for a loaner? I hadn't used a Simpson 260 in over twenty years (THAT required recalibration often in government service) but most DVMs retain their original (if incorrect) specs for a very long time. I'm trying to teach myself how to use a vernier caliper in place of a wheel gauge. What is worse is the air pressure gauges used in inspection on brake systems. Not only can't I find one when I need it but the electronic ones with calibration stickers are worthless in industry. I'm looking for a 4" gauge with an upper limit of 200 PSI and I think Grainger may have one for me. One day, a Dep Sup ripped apart everbodies tool boxes looking for a missing wheel gauge (the DS is TrainDudes protoge) and found nothing. The last gauge I borrowed was so piss-poor that the engraved numbers could not be readily identified. Stephen, you struck a really angry chord in me!!!!! I have to keep my big mouth shut on the job in regards to 'private industry versus TA.' Tools and gauges are an extension of human skills...the TA continues to remain 'Stoned and Aged' in this respect and for the life of me I cannot understand how proper maintainance of R142/R142A/R143 trainsets will be done without new DVMs, laptops and hand held storage scopes. That particular Dep Sup went after me with my 'gimmick light' and was satisfied with my thorough explanation of its use only in Redbirds. Train Dude makes Car Inspectors out of men (so where be de wimmen CIs.) CI Peter
...but most DVMs retain their original (if incorrect) specs for a very long time.
If you look in the Fluke #27 manual, you will discover that Fluke recommends yearly calibrations.
I've had enough experiences with out of calibration Flukes to believe this admonition.
No problem about metrology here!!! I don't think TA would pay for my personal 27s calibration...shlubs didn't even give me a cheapo DVM. Only problem I've had over the years was missing the 'zero out' pot that the Simpson 260s had for 'ohms.' CI Peter
hah, the gimmick light....a hallmark of precision engineering!
Seriously though, what's the big deal about 0.1 volts when measuring
B+ ?
Yep ... and in the R1/9's it was right behind your head on the number one end panel ... even had a light so you could see it was working. :)
Unless things have changed since the days when I had my head in battery boxes, they use 25 cells and a system voltage of 37.5 volts.
That works out to 1.5 volts per cell. A NiCad does not get up that high, even while on a charger.
With the old Edison cell batteries, it was 24 cells.
That works out to 1.56 volts per cell. Nominal voltage for the Edison Cell is 1.4 v. An Edison Cell will reach 1.6 volts when fully charged.
I'll have to look up the reactions later. Nickel Iron and Nickel Cadmium cells, at least the type used in transit, do gas when too much current goes through them. I've personally witnessed it and I've seen written cautions about it. I'm not sure now if the gas is H2 or H2O, but if you look into the cell (the walls are plastic) you can see the tiny bubbles rising.
I've done some more research. The following comes from a the manual of a battery manufacturer.
"During the latter part of a recommended charge cycle and during overcharge, nickel-cadmium batteries generate gas. Oxygen is generated at the positive (nickel) electrode after it becomes fully charged and hydrogen is formed at the negative (cadmium) electrode when it reaches full charge.
These gases must be vented from the conventional nickel-cadmium system. In order for the system to be overcahrgeable while sealed the evolution of hydrogen must be prevented and provision made for the reaction of oxygen within cell container. These things are accomplished by the following:
1. The battery is constructed with excess capacity in the cadmium electode.
2. Starting with both electrodes fully discharged, charging the battery causes the positive electrode to reach full charge first and it starts oxygen generation. Since the negative (cadmium) electrode has not reached full charge hydrogen cannot be generated.
3. The cell is designed so that the oxygen formed in the positive can reach the metallic cadmium surface of the negative electrode which it oxidized directly.
4. Thus, in overcharge, the cadmium electrode is oxidized at a rate just sufficient to offset input energy, keeping the cell in equilibrium indefinitely. At this point of equilbrium the positive electrode is fully charged and the negative is somewhat less than fully charged."
Most of the SMEE cars were delivered with Edison cells, but at some
point the TA started switching to NiCd. They were also made by the Edison Storage Cell company, model ED-80 (80 amp hours). Now, I've been out of the game for a while, and CI Peter says they're using a different brand of 100 Amp hour batteries today.
Looks like there are some tricks to battery design. This is the first instance that I've come across where a combination of charger and/or battery design has conspired to generate hydrogen.
There are some definite rules in the National Electrical Code (NEC) for placing electrical circuits within an atmosphere of a flammable/explosive gas. However, at 37.5 volts I'd assume that this battery would be considered "intrinsically safe" under the code. The 600 vdc definitely isn't. As I remember, there has to be a barrier between the gas and any non-intrinsically safe electrical circuitry. I guess that is why they put the battery in a sealed box. Punching holes in the box to prevent the hydorgen buildup would appear to violate the NEC.
Well, thanks for looking that up! So, the summary version is
that, yes, the battery can emit hydrogen gas, and that it is
basically the result of hydrolysis of the water in the electrolyte.
Concerning voltage per cell, oddly enough the Edison Storage Cell
pamphlet I have recommends using 25 cells for a 32 volt railway
application. The TA and its predecessors always used 24 cells.
In the case of pre-SMEE cars, the batteries were being charged
using a crude tail circuit off the low side of the 600V compressor.
There wasn't very precise regulation of anything, and the battery
was being frequently charged and discharged every time the
compressor cycled. The charging rate tended towards overcharging
since there was no way to know the duty cycle.
On SMEE cars the battery floats on the "MG" voltage. The Edison
book recommends a voltage of 1.50 to 1.60 per cell in this
application. The theory is that after a period of discharge,
the battery should be quickly returned to full charge, and, again,
since the charge/discharge duty cycle isn't being controlled,
they err on the side of overcharging. Since the MG is putting out
current except when the car is sitting on a third rail gap, it
would seem that the batteries spend most of their time cooking
slowly. That's why the electrolyte needs to be re-watered
periodically. There is enough excess electrolyte in the cells
that they can go for a while between waterings. Unlike lead-acid
cells, the specific gravity of the electrolyte in Nickel alkaline
cells does not change with cell voltage. The only problem is when
the electrolyte gets down below the plate tops and they oxidize.
It would appear that batteries have been operated outside the manufacturer's recommendations for some time. Edison Cells, with their more robust characteristics are more likely to withstand such abuse without problems. However, NiCad's are a different story.
Again quoting from "Eveready Battery Applications Engineering Data":
"The nickel-cadmium battery can be trickle charged but floating and constant voltage charging are not recommended. For maximum performance in situations of long term trickle charge the current should be kept to a minimum. The trickle charge current required to keep the battery fully charged is approximately the 30-50 hour rate plus whatever is necessary to compensate for any major withdrawals. Lower trickle rates maintain the battery at some lower state of charge.
If either floating or constant voltage charging is mandatory, a thermal cutoff which senses battery temperature must be included in the charge circuitry."
There have been a spate of battery charger IC's that come out in the past 15 years. These IC's provide an intelligent charging algorithm that combines fast, normal and trickle charge rates. These IC's are pretty cheap - probably under a $1. They're proably a lot cheaper than the NEMA-4 battery container necessary to contain the hydrogen and oxygen generated by operating the batteries outside the manufacturer's recommendations.
There is at least one (I think two) Klixon temp sensors but to the best of my knowledge all subway cars just parallel the batteries with the 37.5 bus. My personal feeling is that we had one isolated and not to explainable incident that Bombardier cannot account for. CI Peter
Yeah, I'm familiar with intelligent charging that uses either
temperature rise or constant current with dv/dt sensing. They've
been around for years to quick-charge NiCds, and NI metal hydride
and Lithium cells demand smart chargers.
I haven't looked over the R142 battery schematic, but basically the
TA has been using the same design since 1948 of floating the cells
off a constant voltage buss. Actually the design goes back to 1936
with the first PCC car.
As I've said, I'm not sure of the engineering reasons for switching
from NiFe to NiCd. The only change made to the equipment was to add
a 25th cell. The NiCd cells used on subway cars more resemble
old Edison cells than the sealed NiCd packs that are familiar
from consumer applications. Unfortunately I don't have a manual
for the ED-80 cells as I do for the B2H cells, so I can't verify
whether or not this method of charging is "against the manufacturer's
recommendations". All I know is from experience that floating
25 cells on 37.5 volts does not produce any serious gassing or
loss of electrolyte.
"It is possible to charge a NiCad in 20 minutes - at a 3C rate. Such chargers use a thermal cutoff to turn off the charger, when
the battery temperature rises. This temperature rise indicates that the battery is fully charged. Such chargers and batteries are
not available for consumer applications."
Are they too difficult to build? Thermal sensors are not expensive.
Excellent and very elegant explanation of battery operation, by the way. Enjoyed reading it, and learned something.
Are they too difficult to build? Thermal sensors are not expensive.
It's more a liability question. Special batteries are required for high charge rates. These batteries are designed to withstand overcharging long enough to experience a temperature rise without damage. If a standard battery were to experience the same charge rate, it might be damaged before the thermal cutoff temperature was reached.
Implied in your post is that a lower charge rate would be unsatisfactory to consumers (ie my having to leave my Norelco electric razor plugged in all night to charge it up).
Implied in your post is that a lower charge rate would be unsatisfactory to consumers (ie my having to leave my Norelco electric razor plugged in all night to charge it up).
There are some applications where it may be necessary to get a full charge in 20 minutes. Your Norelco razor is not one.
I had such an application about 25 years ago. I needed battery power for 14 hours of nearly continuous use. I could have sized the battery capacity to the load but low weight was also a design criteria. One possibility was to undersize the battery and recharge it. (My application would permit a small interruption). Most NiCad's are charged at the C/10 rate for about 16 hours to get a full charge. That was not going to work for my application. I could have used a battery that would completely recharge in 20 minutes. I could have sized the battery to last for 4 hours.
Unfortuantely, this application also required that the recharging unit be included in the unit and its weight be included as part of the design. When I started calculating the weight of the power transformer necessary to supply the charging current, the design became impractical for this application.
What about NiMH batteries? They probably weren't around when you were building your device. But, what limits do NiMH batteries have. They do not develop a memory like Nicads do and can be recharged many more time from what I head. Also, there's Lithium Ion, but I don't know how pratical those are either. We need a chart that has Nicad vs NiMH vs L Ion vs Lead Acid :)
Shawn.
Nickel Cadmium cell packs for industrial use have a better record...much lower internal resistance for higher output current without warping the plates. NiMH and LithIon cells are great for hand held radios and laptops. If you need a battery for 12 volt emergency use, choose a deep cycle lead acid. If you need a battery for 12 volt emergency use AND motor starting, call for a DEEP CYCLE LEAD ACID MARINE STARTING BATTERY. CI Peter
If you need a battery for 12 volt emergency use, choose a deep cycle lead acid. If you need a battery for 12 volt emergency use AND motor starting, call for a DEEP CYCLE LEAD ACID MARINE STARTING BATTERY.
Actually a NiFe (Edison Cell) battery has superior high current performance than a lead-acid. Edison Cells have 3 drawbacks for starting an automobile engine.
1. The Edison Cell performance degrades more quickly than a lead-acid in cold weather.
2. The Edison Cell's high leakage would mean that an idle Edison Cell would discharge more quickly than a lead-acid battery.
3. An Edison Cell would probably outlast several automobiles and thus kill any battery manufacturing business.
Actually, Stephen, my Norelco does recharge fully in about 20 minutes. It then gives me nearly a week's worth of shaves before requiring recharging.
Actually, Stephen, my Norelco does recharge fully in about 20 minutes. It then gives me nearly a week's worth of shaves before requiring recharging.
I salute your superior knowledge of electric razors. I use a safety razor myself.
Norelco is probably using NiMH batteries, if they can go from discharge to full charge in 20 minutes. The NiMH's a lot more tolerant of high charge rates than NiCad's. They're also probably using an intelligent charger.
Assuming it takes about 5 minutes to shave, the Norelco battery is sized for 35 minutes of continuous duty. My application really required nearly continuous use over a 14 hour period.
When doctors switched a medication, I grew hair almost everywhere but the place it was needed. I can use a battery pack good for about forteen hours of continuous application and it's not for my comm radios either. CI Peter
You don't rapidcharge 100 amp/hour banks!!!!!!!! CI Peter
What is going on is that TA personell are carefully removing battery cell crates and Bombardier personell are using a midget to crawl inside with a hole saw to install open conduit fittings. If one were to blow (unlikely) RTO, it would be below platform without any hazard to passengers. CI Peter
Doubtful. I think any rational person would consider that the sound of a detonation on the tracks would only cause a stampede of geese in panic. Ever fire off a cannon with a gaggle of geese around a pond? They trample one another. I wouldn't expect folks on the platforms to know "oh, it's just a battery box" ... thanks to the likes of CNN and MSNBC, they'd *KNOW* they just heard a real live bomb.
Needs to be fixed and FAST ...
Was it a 'bam' or a 'wump' I do not know. Our Sup did see the results and did push Bombardier for our safety. Only Nicad accident i know of was a cop who had a spare HT-220 battery in his pocket with a few loose .38 Specials. CI Peter
Heh. I've seen that trick done with 9 volters as well. Still, worth some 3/8 inch chassis punch usage or a nibbler tool. Hydrogen sources should get some air around their butts ...
That could ruin a cop's sex life.
What about an explosion on an elevated line over a crowded street? Dozens could be injured or killed in the resulting panic.
First of all, let's not let our imaginations run wild, yet. This was an isolated incident on the R-142. The R-110 incident may or may not be related. However, these same or similar batteries are used in virtually all car classes and operate 60+ million miles per month without incident. The incident(s) is under investigation. Before we run around screaming that the sky is falling, let's at least have a few facts handy.
However, these same or similar batteries are used in virtually all car classes and operate 60+ million miles per month without incident.
Are they NiCad's, lead-acid's or Edison Cells?
100 amp hour nickel cadmium cells made by Saif bolted together to produec 37.5 volts DC
Good and sane point ... I've been going on the rash assumption that if there was an explosion, then it must have been hydrogen (way too many years playing with outgassing myself) ... but if they're NiCd's (why on earth use those on subway trains given their high cost of maintaining? but I digress) then we've got a bit of a mystery here. Still, some air around them would likely help if the water intake issues can be dealt with as well. Ventilation's a GOOD thing when heat and gasses are allowed to build up in normal service ...
I've already teased in another thread that the 142's are headed to being dubbed the "Hindenbergs" much like your favorite 68's as "Hippopotami." Perhaps a GOH with paper confetti to amuse the crowds when one of these blows in the future. :)
Yeah, and if some of that condensation, especially in the summer with the high humidity, gets into the battery box...then we've got a "Houston, we've got a problem" situation here...okay?!
Stuart, RLine86Man
"but if they're NiCd's (why on earth use those on subway trains given their high cost of maintaining?"
The batteries on the R-68s, for the most part, are the original batteries. 15 years of service and still cranking. Ordinary maintenance of maintaining the electrolyte level and maintaining the converter output is all it takes.
As for the current incident, it's been assumed that a hydrogen gas build-up set off by a spark from a loose cable, was the cause. I'll wait until the final verdict is in. Right now the Division of Car Equipment has issued a directive that all cars within maintenance shops must have their battery box open, until the cause has been determined. Again, let's not lose sight of the fact that this is an extremely rare occurrence.
Not bad ... my experience with NiCds is relatively limited to ones no larger than motorcycle battery sized units used in broadcast TV VTR's, cameras and lighting kits ... none of which really fared well despite exotic Anton-Bauer charger kits. Developed "memory," "plate whisker" and other feats of doom. So my hat's off to ya on them lasting that long in your neck of the woods.
And agreed that things like this are rare - even automobiles which use much more gassious lead/acid batteries rarely have hydrogen explosions. But of course you know, all it takes is one event to make a federal case out of it ... I'm still surprised (and here still assuming it was actually a hydrogen event) that the boxes aren't ventilated from what I gather here - that'd be a nice simple solution *IF* it is a hydrogen event to prevent such from happening again, at least out on the railroad ...
You know and I know that things going "bump" under the car is everyday life ... but given the dose of the willies most folks have these days, I doubt DCE would want the occasional "wump!" in service nowadays. :)
"The batteries on the R-68s, for the most part, are the original batteries. 15 years of service and still cranking. Ordinary
maintenance of maintaining the electrolyte level and maintaining the converter output is all it takes."
Interesting. If I recall correctly, after several hundred charge-discharge cycles, a NiCad battery will not hold a charge because the electrolytes will no longer travel efficiently across its membrane.
If I am wrong feel free to correct me.
"Interesting. If I recall correctly, after several hundred charge-discharge cycles, a NiCad battery will not hold a charge because the electrolytes will no longer travel efficiently across its membrane."
Let me correct my original statement. The R-68s were delivered with NiFe batteries. Many of these are still in service after 15 years. Those that have been replaced (due primarily to cracked cases) were replaced by NiCad batteries, some of them of roughly the same vintage. (although serviced in the battery shop)
The R68s were delivered with Edison cells? (i.e Nickel-Iron,
not Edison brand)? That's weird. I could swear those plastic
ED80 and ED120 Nickel-Cadmiums started coming in around the
time of the R46.
Let me correct my original statement. The R-68s were delivered with NiFe batteries. Many of these are still in service after 15 years. Those that have been replaced ... were replaced by NiCad batteries...
Might I infer that all original equipment batteries have been Edison Cells until two years ago?
Might I also infer that NYCT's only previous experience with NiCad's has been limited to a relative handful compared to their experience with Edison Cells?
Rotboids all come with nickel cadmiums that I have worked on. It remains my opinion and experience that the 180th Street incident was an isolated case BUT management is trying to preclude any further incident from taking place. The R142 system is battery bussed connected through a 400 Amp DC breaker....the system to my knowledge can only alert to an overcurrent condition BY Klixon thermal switches mounted upon buss bars. When I get out of 'school,' I will look into this further. CI Peter
Rotboids all come with nickel cadmiums that I have worked on.
I'm pretty sure that was not their original 1960's equipment. The rebuilds did not start until the 1980's. That's where I'd start looking, if NiCad's are really universal now.
The R142 system is battery bussed connected through a 400 Amp DC breaker....the system to my knowledge can only alert to an overcurrent condition BY Klixon thermal switches mounted upon buss bars.
To do any good, the thermal cutoff should be measuring the battery's temperature not the ambient. Also, if these are 100 A-Hr NiCad batteries, they will be damaged way before the 400 Amp breaker cuts in. Charging or discharging a NiCad at 4C requires a lot of care to avoid hydrogen generation on both cycles.
It remains my opinion and experience that the 180th Street incident was an isolated case BUT management is trying to preclude any further incident from taking place.
I hope this gives you some measure of assurance. How many successful flights did the Hindenburg make?
The Hindenburgh was sabotauged. The US kept its precious supply of Helium for its military value......many survived the Lakehurst, New Jersey disaster. I have not inspected a Rustbird with anything but nicads (earliest date code in 1999,) no arguement about temp sensing here.......400 Amps DC is a lot of 'juice' and THAT breaker would do nothing in a battery box short or overcharge. It's a lot of politics that I can't be absorbed into....a current measuring shunt, brushless vent fans, charge regulation, battery case temp sensing and a whole lot more are needed...fixed journal bearings, improved software, working regenerative braking, improved door operation, modified end door mechs....the TA is working on something....CI Peter
The Hindenburgh was sabotauged. The US kept its precious supply of Helium for its military value......many survived the Lakehurst, New Jersey disaster.
What ignited was the exterior aluminum paint.
And the batteries.......I need to keep my job. Save the precious 'aluminium' for the Messerchmidts 109 E/F. The 'G' of course was a Hispano/Suiza product.
The theory about the aluminum paint was aired on Channel 13 some years ago. It's a very plausible theory. However, how serious would the incident have been had the Hindenburg been filled with helium?
Likely wouldn't have burned as hot but the aluminum *DID* make the flames visible. Hydrogen has a nasty habit of invisble flames. Ask any firefighter ... that sheet's scary ...
I read the article and that dope was an incendiary compound. The destruction of the HINDENBURG would have been just as total, just not as quick, that's all. Hopefully, hydrogen can take it's place as a fuel for the future. The world's oil addiction must be broken. Oil gives too much economic power to people who can't be trusted to be compatible with a civilized world (and I don't mean the good people of Texas) As for Airships, modern design lighter than air craft would make it possible to move huge machinery thru the air far easier than by highway or even railroad.
I owe some apolgies.....this was an old post I tried to reperk. I won't get into witholding precious Helium.
The purpose of the refresh was to bring attention to the R110B prototype car battery box explosion that took place several weeks ago. Four were injured: one vendor, two CI's and a MS. All were taken to hospital, one may have had a serious concussion from a blast that shook building pilings. The union made a big stink about safety equipment...CTAs schmatas are no substitute for common sense and training. This second accident was published for the record. CI Peter
Union paper had two safety articles: one was on how Vise Grips were used to control a contractors 140 ton stabalizing cable. The other was on Four Maintainance Workers Injured in battery box explosion at 207th...........One vendor, two CIs and one MS were taken to hospital after the battery box of a R110B prototype exploded in the shop during an explosion that lasted several seconds and shook the buildings pilings. One CI may have suffered from a serious concussion. SAFT is now providing a filler pump with electronic level detection to bring up cell levels. Union wants all battery boxes open during indoor lay-ups. CI Peter
Wowsers ... wasn't a Bomba after all then ... follow that Pink bunny ... he's gonna go over the wall ... :)
It was both. The 207th street incident was preceeded by one at East 180th St. A friend of 20 years was injured in that one.
Wow ... don't mind me, been out of town for a couple of days, just got back in and the old meatrom ain't quite up to voltage yet. Forgot we were talking about two separate incidents ... and my sympathies to your buddy - nobody likes to see anyone get hurt ... especially on the job. Yeah, I can see if there's two incidents that no box latches will remain closed anymore. Vent mods sound like something to be considered down the road ... hydrogen isn't a big problem unless it accumulates.
OOOHHHH....the post did get through!!!! Aluminium and hydrogen was anoter post.
SAFT NiCads produce Hydrogen and 2X Oxygen. Theory is vents work only when trainset is in motion. SAFT now provides a tank sprayer with an electronic sensor to detect cell levels: several of the cells purportedly in the 207th incident were dry. Hard to believe that cells void of electrolyte had a low enough internal resistance for high current. R142s sensors on battery bus bar (Klixons) trigger EXTERNAL circuit breaker when reaction temp is reached....wonder what the R110B does??? I'd just like to point out that none of this is unpublished information...my experience makes it easy to put it all together. CI Peter
Well, actually vents would work in static mode as well ... at least as far as venting the H2 ... nitrogen would displace it as long as the vents were at the TOP of the case somewhere under there. Lighter than air and all that silliness. It would work much BETTER though if air was being moved, but even parked, it would rise, just slower.
And as the 110B's, I'd check to see if some wiseass contractor didn't fill it up with DieHards and took the "good ones" home. :)
SAFT NiCads...
Would you know the SAFT model number of the battery and the individual cells?
There were no injuries involved in the 207th Street / R-110B incident.
According to the article I read Friday, all were taken to hospital with concern about one who had blood about his ears from a possible concussion. I am glad that there were no injuries just as I am glad that no one from my crew was injured from Bombas bug explosion in my shop. Eternal vigilance of the stupid is our first line of defense...a sharp smack of the shoe paddle edgewise should come a close second. It is now time to erect an antenna and put my KiloWatt on the air. CI Peter, WB2SGT
RTO?
Rapid
Transit
Operations
David
A MIDGET???!!! AHAHA! Is it a midge hermie by any chance?
don't mind me. bad inside joke. I don't doubt no passengers would be in danger on the road, but if it's load, and has any hint of smoke, you KNOW some will think the worst and panic. Especially tourists.
Guys, remember that the battery box is waist level in the shop and shoulder level in the pit. The R142 unit is a heavy stainless steel seamless weld box that could buckle and burst causing injury to TA personell. It is below the platform level and under the floor of the car...highly unlikely that passengers would notice anything more out of the ordinary then the usual 'whump.' As for elevated train lines, not too much more would happen beyond some leaking potassium hydroxide electrolyte and certainly no more molten metal than already gets spit off from third rail arcs. The concern is for the safety of TA personell AND for proper upgrades which should have been done by Bombardier long before the trainsets were placed into revenue service. CI Peter
But on the LCD Monitor, the car that would have the explosion would blink on and off of course, notifying that it wasn't a bomb, and the T/O will calmly tell the raging and out of control crowd that it was just a battery EXPLOSION. If only technology was this good.
The TOD might pip a failure only because two 'klixon' temperature sensors registered....they are attached to bus bars. Remember that 37.5 volts is trainset and only one B car needs to be in operation IF the other two cars aren't loading or shorting to ground. CI Peter
Ain't that cool!
Y does this ONLY happen with the NEW 142..CLUNKERS !! ............??
Because our beloved Redbirds lack this confusing technology and stuff.
Newer isn't always better.
Something doesn't sound right here. I can't imagine an engineering
team being sufficiently incompetent to overlook gassing in
a battery box. There would also have to be a second engineering
failure in the LVPS to cause the overcharge condition. Also
very odd that after nearly 10 years of service, the R110 would
choose this time to fail, unless it was recently "upgraded".
I smell a RAT here ..............a r-142 ............RAT !!!
man does it stink !!!
Anyone want to chip in for scuba gear or a one man sub so Salaamallah can go to the reefs and bring up his Redbirds?
Nah.....you'd need a Navy DSRV for something like that *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
We might need them now.
From the article:
The union's safety department has requested that all R142's be pulled from service until the cause is determined.
Who wants to go fishing?
We trolleyed two trainsets in during lunch opening the battery boxes and bugging the 'B' cars with water pouring out all over the place. Bombardiers techs told us to pull the bugs...everything was wet. Then we came back for another brake inspection...what is happening now is that the batteries are being pulled and holesaws are cutting new vents in the top of the boxes. A Dep Sup would like me to meet up with the engineers concerning battery systems because of my mobile radio experience...it surprises me every day that practical knowledge is not in everyones toolbag. The 'venting' is an interim thing and the real problem (if there is one) will not be discovered until accurate current and voltage measurements of the system are made. CI Peter
Hey all.
Will the R-143 on the l be runnin gtommorow. IF yes wil it be on the same schedule as durning the 30 day test
best
No....Since it passed the test, It is now out of service getting upgrades, etc,.. It should be out of service for at least a month.
-Mark
thanks
They delivered shell number 8149 last night.
What kind of upgrades is the train getting? I hope they dump the commercials (for Para-transit, airport service, unlimited cards, reduced fare, ad nausem)
I think they will be like those on the Montreal Metro eventually, displaying actual advertisements, not just those for the MTA.
Tomorrow is today (Friday). They will be out of service for awhile. L line crews not previously qualified (due to recent new pick) have to learn how to operate them. I was told that on Thursday evening, 8 cars were transfered to Pitkin Yard: 8101 to 8104 and 8109 to 8112. Look for them in the coming days running on the Rockaway test track.
The A Div. pick selection is scheduled to start on April 8th.
Both A+B Div will start in May.
Tomorrow I will go to 207 Street and look at the board to see what I can get with my seniorty number which is in the 2900's.
Is your number in the toilet like mine???
Its not that bad Conductors move up fast. Last Pick I can a lot of Choose from.
This is what was open
1 AM RDO REL Bway
1 AM XL Bway
4 PM RDO REL East (I took 1 of them)
6 steady No.1 Line Picked jobs
26 PM RDO REL Bway Days off ( T/W W/T OR T/F)
11 VR Jobs
8 Flagging jobs.
My choices shrunk at 2:30 PM. I'll have to be within earshot of the PA system....car desk MUST know of my crews situation. CI Peter
I was in your shoes in July when I saw the last assignment go a few slots ahead of me. I think the last to go was 5 days on the No.2 Line with W/T off. This pick was a change up because the No.2 was the first to be picked out.
The last to be picked was FLAGGING! There are 4 slots that where not picked. The last line was the No.1 with 2 trips to New Lots on the Late PM's. That was my Monday job that I hated.
>>>>>>>>>This pick was a change up because the No.2 was the first to be picked out.
That's because the TA created a lot of penalty jobs on the deuce. Money attracts crews like light attracts flies.
Thanx guys...I'm OK. Lost position in 239th...kept M/F 7/3 in shift to 180th crew 'troubles.' End of #5 boids means I'm lead tech! CI Peter
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTORS CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectors MUST HAVE. The supply is limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order
made out to: Mike Makman, To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
METROCARD MANIA BOOK - Fun With Used MetroCards!
This beautiful paperback book was published by Price Stern & Sloan. It is now OUT OF PRINT. It includes over 30 different projects using NYC MetroCards. Games, magic tricks, toys. Great for kids from 8 to adult. Autographed by author at buyer¹s request. To order send $8 each + $3.00 (s&h) (outside USA $6.00 s&h) in US money, check or money order made out to: Michael Makman. Send order to: Professor Putter PO Box 755, Planet Station New York , NY 10024-0539
There are photos on this website that shows redbirds being dumped off the coast of Delaware......is this true? or a joke?
Couldn't be more real ... they've gotten to be in SORRY shape ... and they're disappearing fast, Noo Yawk style ... "go sleep wit da fishes" ...
If you are referring to post 313239, I'm still laughing. Its a true joke.
Cars 6831-35 and 6836-40, which were both delivered to Fresh Pond Yard on 12/21/01, are now being prepped for service. The train was spotted heading southbound from Jackson Av moments ago.
Coming soon to a train station near you: Cars 6746-60, 6841-45.
More updates to come....
-Stef
>>Cars 6831-35 and 6836-40, which were both delivered to Fresh Pond Yard on 12/21/01, are now being prepped for service<<
Prepped for service for the #5 line ?
Bill "Newkirk"
and what're they doin' in B Division Queens?! Wouldn't a more logical location be (of course) East 180th or 207th Street????
Stuart, RLine86Man
They were probably delivered to Fresh Pond via the Montaulk LIRR.
Correct!
Is that the same delivery method from the R-44/46 delivery????
Stuart, RLine86Man
I believe that the R44/46 were brought in by barge/float to the carfloat bridge, and then carried over on the B/W.
via the West End (B/W)/39th Street ROW (NYCRR) [those tracks that look like they go to nowhere], I presume?
Stuart, RLine86Man
Not yet. This train had the usual 2 Train Electronic Signage.
-Stef
To insure the ongoing safety of the riding public and continuous operation of the R142 in revenue service, all tread brake shoes in all R142s brought into maintainance facilities will be replaced by TA personel unless a failed TBU is noticed in inspection in which case the vendor will be responsible for replacement.
Daily News
"A preliminary MTA map shows the northern terminus of a Second Ave. line at 125th St. and Lexington Ave., with connections to the 4, 5 and 6 trains and the Metro-North Railroad.
"Stops would be at 116th, 106th, 96th, 86th, 72nd, 54th-57th, 42nd, 34th, 23rd, 14th, Houston and Grand Sts., followed by Chatham Square. Two more stops south of the Brooklyn Bridge would follow, but the locations haven't been determined."
"Until more work is done, MTA officials said, they could not estimate how long the project would take or how much it would cost.
"Previous estimates projected 15 years of construction and a price tag of $12 billion."
Here comes the next fare hike :( [Quite possibly up to 1.75 or 2.00]
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'll pay $2 a ride for the privilege of not being packed into a cattle car on the Lex.
I wouldn't. For $1.50, Queens Blvd <-> Manhattan service rules :) Maybe for some increased late night service as comming back from NYU at 2AM can require quite a wait at 14 St and 6th Ave F. Staring down a poorly lit subway tunnel has weird effects on the mind after several minutes.
I think the TA should try the idea of charging more or less at different times. Say raise the fare to $2.00 on weekdays, but then make it 1.75 or 1.50 on weekends, and maybe 1.25 at night.
>> Here comes the next fare hike :( [Quite possibly up to 1.75 or 2.00] <<
If that's what it takes to get it built-- no more excuses!
This looks like a Water St line rather than a connection into the Nassau St line.
116th Street finally made it onto the list. That was a long-time goal of Manhattan Borough President C. Virginia Fields.
And a good idea for helping stimulate redevelopment of the surrounding blocks.
It also meets MTA has got a hold of a good engineering solution to the problems raised about that location.
All fine and well, if its ever built. There was plans drawn up in the '20s, '50s and '60s too, you know.
But 79th isn't on there.
But 79th isn't on there.
Don't think it ever was. Has always been 72nd to 86th IIRC.
Why? They want all of us to pile onto Lex?
Why? They want all of us to pile onto Lex?
Since the 2nd Ave line is apparently going to be twin-track only (NOT express/local), this is the tradeoff. Stations will not be as frequent as they would be for the local half of a line that runs both express and local.
Stations are three blocks long (or at least mezzanines are, dunno bout entrance spacing). The MAXIMUM distance you'd have to walk to get to the end of one station or the other is about 5 blocks, or a quarter of a mile. Not THAT bad.
>> Since the 2nd Ave line is apparently going to be twin-track only (NOT express/local), this is the tradeoff. <<
Yes-- we don't want it to be slow, like the J.
How do you figure that spacing? If the stations are at 72nd and 86th, then theoretically the north end of 72nd St. should be at about 74th and the southern end of 86th St. should be at about 84th St. That is 10 blocks! While I agree that something is better than nothing, I am really concerned about building a two-track line in such densely populated areas, more for total capacity and flexibility than for just express/local configurations.
I heard from an old time transit worker that three tracks would be better, as the middle track would serve in case of a BIE situation or a GO. The suits at MTA HQ just do not consider things like that until they happen, then it is too late.
How do you figure that spacing? If the stations are at 72nd and 86th, then theoretically the north end of 72nd St. should be at about 74th and the southern end of 86th St. should be at about 84th St. That is 10 blocks!
Correct! So the furthest you can possibly be from one station or the other is ... 5 blocks. Work it out!
If you put the 72nd St station from 72nd to 74th, then it's 15 blocks down to the 54th-57th St station, or up to 7.5 blocks of walking.
>>>Don't think it ever was. Has always been 72nd to 86th IIRC.<<<
Why such a big gap? Will these be IND-type aircraft-carrier length stations?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not quite aircraft carrier length, but yes, 2nd Av will be an IND line. 600 feet, and probably a bit more.
The story Iread is that the original set of 75 foot cars were ordered for the aborted 70s project; when they were delivered, they had to do some unexpected retrofitting of the existing system to make them fit.
They had to chisel down some tunnel catwalks to prevent the 75-footers from sideswiping them.
That and remember that a two track system will not be very popular if station stops resemble the local tracks on the Lex. MTA needs to compromise between exprewss and local stops. Also, the closer the stations are together, the lower the top operating speed will be. I'd like to see a top permitted operating speed of 60-70 mph on this line.
Cutting the stations to 125th, high-40s, mid-30s and Grand would do the trick. Whatever the difficulties of transferring at 125/Lex, the fast runs might even motivate someone with a seat to make the transfer.
Cutting the stations to 125th, high-40s, mid-30s and Grand would do the trick.
This made me chuckle before my first cup of tea! Of course if you cut out all the Upper East Side stations you will remove, in *many* people's eyes, the entire reason for the Second Avenue line: relief for the jam-packed Lex line on the UES. (Those of us in other parts of Manhattan think there are some other uses, but they yell louder.)
My points about the alignment are as follows.
o They ought to have the thing go east through a tunnel to Randalls Island and then over a bridge into the south Bronx. This will make the island's recreational facilities accessible, and create a place to put a yard.
o They should hook into the Broad Street line, esp. if they don't have a yard at the northern end.
o I'd like to see a mirror image of the orignial IND, with the west side served by a crosstown line in the low 40s that could run express down Second Avenue. Located right under GCT, it could provide a superfast ride Downtown for MetroNorth riders. Extended out to Secaucus Transfer in NJ, it could provide a quick ride into GCT for NJT riders.
You have to be kidding?!?
Well of course there won't be a speed problem -- if the train never has to stop to pick up passengers!
If you want speed, there already is a train that rockets express from 125th to 42nd. It's called MetroNorth. I strongly suggest that you get your railfan jollies up there, and leave the Second Avenue subway design alone,
MATT-2AV
If you want speed, there already is a train that rockets express from 125th to 42nd. It's called MetroNorth.
Well, two problems. (1) It doesn't "rocket". It moves along fairly smartly until the mid-60s somewhere. Then it slows noticeably, and crawls through the switching system. The scheduled and actual time between the two stations, which are 4 miles apart, is 10 minutes. That's less than 30 mph ... I bet the 4/5 run close to that fast on a good day. (2) IIRC, MN won't sell you a ticket between GCT and 125th anyway.
Well, just because MetroNorth won't sell someone a ticket is no reason to argue in favor of a Second Avenue subway alignment that bypasses one of the communities it is intended to serve.
Remember, the MTA tried something close to Mark's proposal once before -- it was the Madison Avenue alignment. It would run under Central Park, skipping the Upper East Side entirely. The option was rejected because it is a very, very poor compromise.
The first phase of the subway is intended to reduce crush loading on the Lexington Avenue line on the Upper East Side. It will have far reaching benefits to other lines and other forms of transportation. However, I take strong objection to the argument that the subway should deviate from its intention just because it doesn't benefit someone directly.
MATT-2AV
Well, just because MetroNorth won't sell someone a ticket is no reason to argue in favor of a Second Avenue subway alignment that bypasses one of the communities it is intended to serve.
I wasn't arguing in favor of skipping the UES, just adding the facts as they now exist. (Although I was wrong; you can buy a GCT-125th ticket, for $4.25, on a limited number of Harlem & Hudson Line local trains.)
I suspect the original post was tongue-in-cheek anyway .... running express from 125th to 42nd on a two-track line is clearly absurd.
>>(Although I was wrong; you can buy a GCT-125th ticket, for $4.25, on a limited number of Harlem & Hudson Line local trains.) <<
Actually, it's ALL Hudson locals, and all Midday and Evening Peak Harlem locals.
I timed the 4/5 in the old days before times and they took 10 mins from 125th to 42nd, just the same as MN.
According to the MTA schedules on their web site, you can ride GCT to 125th on the local Hudson and Harlem trains only. Monthly is $94 and a single peak one-way is $4.25.
>> you can ride GCT to 125th on the local Hudson and Harlem trains only. Monthly is $94 and a single peak one-way is $4.25. <<
That price (LIRR from Jamaica and west is similar) is clearly intended to discourage city riders from using it for that purpose. Someone would have to be in a real hurry to take that over the $1.50 subway ride.
Northbound out of GCT is always quicker than going to GCT.
I believe MN is actually 10 min NB and 11 min SB.
We've said this before, and we'll say this again -- Metro-North WILL, repreat, WILL sell you a ticket bewteen 125th and GCT, in either direction. It costs $4.25 peak, $3.25 off-peak, and $94 monthly. These fares are listed in the Hudson and Harlem line timetables.
We've said this before, and we'll say this again -- Metro-North WILL, repreat, WILL sell you a ticket bewteen 125th and GCT, in either direction.
Got it, sorry. Brain fade, since I was one of the people in that thread last month.
It does kinda boggle the mind though; I have to wonder whether they actually SELL any tickets at a cost almost 3x that of the subway for a ride of similar duration?
Very few, but the monthly pass at $94, averages to a one-way fare of about $2.50 (assuming use twice a day for 22 working days a month).
Why would someone spend $4.25 to go from 125th to Grand Central if you can do it for $1.50. It's not that much longer on the 4/5. I can see it once in a while if you are in a real hurry, but to spend $94.00 on a monthly ticket for something that you can do for much less on the subway is beyond me. Why would anyone spend that much extra to ride Metro North for one stop?
Hardly anyone does it. The residents around 125th are not very affluent. But the $94 monthly averages to a one-way fare of about $2.20 if used every workday, so someone living near 125th and working near GCT might use it for the convenience.
For years I rode Hudson locals, and hardly ever saw anyone getting on inbound or off outbound.
Same reason people board LIRR between Flushing and Manhattan even though the 7 express is almost as fast. They want a more luxurious and comfortable ride.
Yeah, but isn't Flushing a better neighborhood, and more affluent than around 125th St. Yes, the 125th street area is ALOT better than it used to be, but it still doesn't seem the people would want to waste $4.25 to go to Grand Central, when they can do it almost as fast on the 4,5.
Really, the only time 125th St would logically gety much use from GCT-bound passegers would be during a transit strike (just like Woodside, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens on the LIRR would see their inbound passenger load jump sharply if the subways were out).
It's about 18 minutes from Flushing to NY-Penn on LIRR, and about 30 minutes via the express 7 train to Times Square. Aside from comfort and convenience, there is a small time savings. If you work immediately around Penn Station, it would be worth it. Monthly pass is $117, which if you subsidize with TrasitChek, the difference is not all that much.
I never argued about the use of Flushing LIRR station as opposed to using the 7 train. I find that much more useful and likely to be used than the $4.25 from 125 to Grand Central. My argument was about how many people around 125 St would probably take the 4/5 as opposed to MN.
Not only would the upper east siders be indignant, but so would the large number of people who live between 3rd Ave and Ave D between 23rd and Houston. There is a full mile of Manhattan east of 3rd Ave on this stretch, and it's all residential and it's mostly full of people who work for a living.
Most new subways in the country do not get up to speeds of 60-70 like you want when stations are 1/2 to 3/4 miles apart. MARTA gets around 35-40 in the tunnels. Realistically, 45 should be tops for 2nd Av.
I think there are limits to how fast a train can accelerate and decelerate without being uncomfortable to passengers, especially those standing.
Even if the stations are 0.5 miles apart, 60-70 miles per hour is pretty fast.
Say you want your train to accelerate to 60 mi/h, and it has half the distance (0.25 miles) to do so. From a station stop to 60 mi/h in only 0.25 miles, you get an acceleration of 3 ft/sec^2.
I don't know what that acceleration feels like, but one g-force is 32.2 ft/sec^2. So that would be like a thenth of a g-force, and the train has to start slowing down the minute it reaches 60 miles per hour.
I agree with Rob. While the tunnels and equipment may be able to handle 60-70 mi/h, a speed limit of 45 mi/h is more practical.
MATT-2AV
That and remember that a two track system will not be very popular if station stops resemble the local tracks on the Lex. MTA needs to compromise between exprewss and local stops.
I disagree. A compromise won't be very popular. Those looking for an express will use the Lex; those looking for a local will, in many cases, find closer stations on the Lex.
If the line must initially have only two tracks, it should be built with later expansion in mind. That means, at least on paper, there must be a full suite of local stops. (Some could be skipped in the initial incarnation.)
If the line must initially have only two tracks, it should be built with later expansion in mind
But we know they won't do that, by which I mean provisions for express stations somewhere in the 50s and 40s. Otherwise, they'd have to shoehorn-in lower level platforms while supporting full service upstairs. Which means, if it's ever built at all, we'll be talking about a Third Avenue subway about then.
The stubway makes no sense as a 4 tracker, but once Houston St. is reached, it most certainly does. The express stations might parallel that of the original config of the Lex (86th, 42nd, 14th).
Nonsense. While I'd certainly rather see a full-length line than a stubway, if only a stubway is built, it too should be a four-track line. You grossly underestimate the passenger load at the Upper East Side 4/5/6 stations -- the UES is one of the densest neighborhoods in the country.
I'd envision it not as a bilevel line (which makes for difficult transfers) but as a standard four-tracks-side-by-side line. The initial construction would be along (say) the west side of the avenue; when the funding is found, a second pair of tracks would be built along the east side.
You misunderstand me.
I said the stubway makes no sense as a 4-track line, but most certainly, if it ever gets down near 14th St., then it most certainly makes sense as a 4-tracker, and in fact, this is the only way to go. And I am the first to insist that the whole thing should be designed as a 4-tracker.
If they are going to use tunnel boring machines, not leaving provision for a 2nd double bore would be foolish. You decide the location and basic design of your express stations. Putting express trains on a lower level for at least part of the express runs is not unreasonable, but it's whatever is cheaper.
I don't think I misunderstand you at all.
Of course, a full-length line would be preferable -- but even a stubway should have four tracks.
Tune in next Season for "Big Dig II: New York City". Watch as they try to please everyone and end up alienating everyone.
The City should just close 2nd Ave. (or sections of it) for the duration of construction. This would probably reduce construction time to 5 years or so. I lot of inconvience for a short time is greater than a fair amount of inconvience for a long long time.
I was thinking the same thing. If they dig out the tunnel by segments, cover it, then move to the next segment, it would cause minimal disruption.
Anyone know the geology of 2nd Av? Where could TBMs be used?
Most of the planned 2nd Av 'stubway' was *completed* in the 70s, except for the stations. The expensive mess will be the major intersections that get ripped up for these unbuilt stations.
The segment from Houston to 63rd is unbuilt (tho' this site reports rumors about segments just north of Houston).
A small segment down on Water St. is also finished.
I wouldn't call it "most." The completed sections in the "stubway" area are from E. 99th to E. 106th Streets and E. 110th to E. 120th Streets. That's 17 blocks out of 62 from E. 63rd to E. 125th Streets, not even counting the couple of blocks over from Second Avenue to Lexington Avenue.
The section from E. 2nd to E. 9th Streets was started but not completed. Word I get is that it was filled in. The only completed downtown section is a short one under Confucius Plaza.
As to the preferred construction method, most of the line is to be built by TBMs (if it happens at all), with cut-and-cover reserved mostly for station areas.
David
The difference between construction today and 25 years ago is that the TBM will mean minimal disruption between stations. You can't get around cut and cover for station work, but in the 1960's the whole stretch of avenue would have been ripped up, eventually.
This will be a much easier experience.
Whole stretches of 2nd Ave WERE ripped up in the 70s. I don't know how much they built but upper 2nd Ave was a mess. All it takes is a few blocks of really narrow avenue and the avenue isn't very usable.
My brother-in-law remembers when 2nd Ave. was torn up in the 70s during construction of the existing tunnel sections.
"Anyone know the geology of 2nd Av? Where could TBMs be used?"
TBMs can and will be used for a major part of construction. I wouldn't look too deeply into engineering details from "The Daily News". It sure isn't ENR.
I had a geologic profile of Second Avenue in my desk drawer, but I can't find it right now. If I recall correctly, you have mostly rock to bore through untill ~96th Street, at which point the makeup shifts to sand/soil. I'll have to try and find the profile. But I digress.
I would suggest using TBMs for the portions up to about 99th Street, and then shift to cut-and-cover to connect the existing tunnel segments.
MATT-2AV
TBM's are slow and inefficient. They move about 10 feet a day each. Look how long the Tunnel 3 aquaduct has taken to build. Blasting is a much faster method of tunnel construction, unfortunately it is dangerous. I propose we use illegal immigrants in a sort of "earn your citizenship" programme. They can already join the army, why not a civilian occupation of similar risk?
Should I even dignify this post with a response?
Oh well, what the heck.
You are incorrect on both accounts. The first one, regarding the immigrants, I won't touch with a ten foot pole. Have you been watching "Starship Troopers" again?
Now about the TBM, they are certainly not inefficient. Where do you come up with such ideas? Making such claims dissolves the credibility of any of your arguments.
TBMs have completely revolutionized tunnel building. They can be manned by relatively few, they are fully automated, and they can operate 24 hours a day. The are laser guided and infinitely precise.
"Look how long the Tunnel 3 aquaduct has taken to build."
Um, Tunnels 1 & 2 were built in several sections simultaneously by a much larger crew and are each substantially smaller than Tunnel 3.
Or do you just not like the way tunnels bored with TBMs "look"?
MATT-2AV
TBMs have completely revolutionized tunnel building. They can be manned by relatively few, they are fully automated, and they can operate 24 hours a day. The are laser guided and infinitely precise.
A crew of low paid workers can do the same at a much faster pace. Second, a TBM is not fully automated. They need a crew to change the very expensive drilling heads every hour or so as drilling through hard materials is not what TBM's excell at. TBM's are cheaper and that is all they are. Cheaper is not better.
Yes it is. Listen to the birds, they go CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP. Build the damned thing as cheaply as possible without sacrificing safety or utility, forget all FOAMER rantings, and give us more subway.
MATT-2AV is a civil engineer who knows a thing or two about tunnel building. I'm a civil engineering major as well. I believe he worked on the T3 project (Correct me if I'm wrong). Tunnel building is a very dangerous job and workers get paid accordingly (ie, a lot). Employers do not go out to gas stations and grab some illegal immigrants for tunnel building. Get out of the 1910s and join us in the real world. Since you know how fast a crew digging out a tunnel is, please give me a number. And I know the rate it took to dig the London tubes, so I'll post that once you give the wrong number. And also, TBMs DO EXCEL at hard materials like granite. In fact, that is the only time when they are used. Try geting a guy with a pick ax to do the same thing.
"A crew of low paid workers can do the same at a much faster pace."
There is no such thing as a low paid construction worker. :^) In some cities, the pay may be somewhat cheaper or more expensive than other cities depending on how strong the unions are, but construction workers are rarely paid burger-flipper wages, and NEVER on government projects.
Even if you could pay workers relatively low wages, the safety regulations -- which generally ARE enforced on government projects -- makes workers expensive and gives contractors strong incentive to use as few workers as possible.
I think the idea is to import some third-world coolie-wage contract workers who'd have zero rights insofar as workers comp, unionization, etc, would go. We're not saying such workers would endure less safe working conditions, etc, just that they don't get paid much and would be given every motivation to work fast.
I suspect if you paid off the unions, it'd still be cheaper/faster.
(I think the idea is to import some third-world coolie-wage contract workers who'd have zero rights insofar as workers comp, unionization, etc, would go. We're not saying such workers would endure less safe working conditions, etc, just that they don't get paid much and would be given every motivation to work fast. I suspect if you paid off the unions, it'd still be cheaper/faster.)
Or you could hire NYC residents for solid working to middle-income wages, but force all of them to show at work and do their job. Unlike the suburban/mafia workforce on public projects, some of which get paid to stay at home. Corruption, inefficiency, and featherbedding are the issues, not wages. Those NYC construction workers who work earn their pay.
If the City were run rationally, instead of politically, it would save money in booms and then do public works in recessions; the construction workers would agree to accept lower wages at that time to keep working. Instead, the City and State piled on debt and projects the a boom and paid top dollar. They'll now be cutting back in a recession. One reason construction workers are so greedy when they can be is that they are dumped on the street with no work every few years.
True story. I work in the medical field. I give you the demographics of a certain patient I remember: Italian surname, lived in Dyker Heights; was a concrete contractor; had a old unremoved bullet lodged someplace I forget.
There are good craft tradesmen in the city. I know a few of them; they do good work, work hard, and are proud of their work. Trouble is, it's hard as hell to find one, especially for small jobs. And there are also lots of shirkers, who've learned you earn just as much by just getting by. There is a shortage of motivated craftsmen, so we put up with the tatooed effups.
I had to come to New York to learn what 'golden time' is. It's more than just overtime: it's whatever the workman wants, because you are desperate to get the job done on time, basically triple time plus a couple or three big bills that don't get reported to Uncle Sam.
There is a shortage of motivated craftsmen, so we put up with the tatooed effups.
Not that tattoos in and of themselves are an indicator of anything, hmmmmmmm?
Or you could hire NYC residents for solid working to middle-income wages, but force all of them to show at work and do their job. Unlike the suburban/mafia workforce on public projects, some of which get paid to stay at home. Corruption, inefficiency, and featherbedding are the issues, not wages. Those NYC construction workers who work earn their pay.
I remember hearing a joke about the difference between Atlanta, Chicago, Philadelphia and New York:
On a 10-man public works project in Atlanta, eight men work while two men stand around drinking coffee.
On a 10-man public works project in Chicago, seven men work while three men stand around drinking coffee.
On a 10-man public works project in Philadelphia, five men work while five men stand around drinking coffee.
And on a 10-man public works project in New York, no men work while 10 men stand around drinking coffee!
heh... That reminds me of another one:
Three general contractors, one from Atlanta, one from Houston, and one from Chicago, were at a zoo. During the course of their visit, they happened to meet the grounds superintendent. Upon learning of their professions, the superintendent said, "Hey, I've got a fence out back that needs to be replaced. Would you guys mind taking a look at it and maybe giving me an estimate?"
"Sure," they said, and followed the superintendent to the back of the property.
The contractor from Houston was first. He pulled out a notepad and calculator, took some measurements with his tape measure, made a sketch, and punched some numbers. "Let's see... $1000 for materials, $1500 for labor, and $500 profit for me, that's $3000 total."
The contractor from Atlanta then took a look at the fence, took some measurements, made a couple sketches in his notepad, and added up some numbers. "I'll do it for $2000. $750 for materials, $750 for labor, and $500 profit for me."
Finally, it was the Chicago contractor's turn. Without so much as budging an inch, he said, "Twenty-two thousand dollars."
The superintendent gasped in horror, and furiously yelled, "One guy gave me an estimate for $3000, and another said $2000! How the hell did you come up with $22,000???"
"Easy," said the Chicago contractor. "Ten thousand for you, ten thousand for me, and we hire the guy from Atlanta."
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
which is why Chicago will have a Midway-O'Hare line before the 2nd Ave Sub is built
Heh heh. Now, there also was a contractor from New York on the zoo visit. When asked for an estimate, he said "Give me $5,000 for a study, and I'll get back to you in ten years."
10' per day doesn't sound slow to me. Dig 3 holes and put one facing each way at each hole (i.e., use 6 machines). Now you accomplish 60' per day or 20,000' per year or all 9 miles in under 2 years. I wish it could go that fast!
10 feet a day?? I don't think so. The Channel Tunnel TBMs were doing 56m on a good day. Besides, there is no fixed rate at which a TBM moves. It all depends in the geology of the area. Rates can be as high as 10m/hr and as low as .1m/hr. And those numbers aren't constant for a project, as it can change as the geology changes.
The meat of the channel was through chalk, that "white cliffs of Dover stuff, if I not mistaken. So maybe it was an easier dig and plan with the strata of chalk conviently in place.
The Japanese northern Islands tunnel was a horse or elephant of a different color, don't you agree?
avid
I found it, Rob. Its from an earlier planning study, hence the absence of 116th Street Station. However, the geology couldn't have changed that much in ~2 years.
Click Here to View
MATT-2AV
Thanks. Something like that is what I was thinking of.
"The City should just close 2nd Ave. (or sections of it) for the duration of construction. This would probably reduce construction time to 5 years or so. I lot of inconvience for a short time is greater than a fair amount of inconvience for a long long time."
Not necessarily.
You have to conceptualize the big picture here. There are businesses, etc. that could be hurt by long term, substantial surface ROW closures.
Moreover, you also need to realize that Second Avenue is a major motor vehicle corridor. Now the automobile isn't a topic of this board, and for some the bane of our existence, but closing major portions of the road for any duration creates more problems than it solves.
As a Second Avenue resident, I can tell you what happens to York, Park, Lexington, the FDR, and Fifth when a part of the Street is closed.
Of course, there will have to be some surface closures, be these should be kept to a minimum even if it means waiting a little while longer for our subway.
MATT-2AV
You have to conceptualize the big picture here. There are businesses, etc. that could be hurt by long term, substantial surface ROW closures.
Moreover, you also need to realize that Second Avenue is a major motor vehicle corridor. Now the automobile isn't a topic of this board, and for some the bane of our existence, but closing major portions of the road for any duration creates more problems than it solves.
Look at Boston, they tried to have it both ways and they suffered all that you mentioned above, it just took 3 times as long and cost 4 times as much. It would probably be cheaper just to temporarily re-locate the bussinesses or buy them to go on a temporary hiatus. 5 years of traffic jams is better than 15 years of traffic jams.
Look at Boston, they tried to have it both ways and they suffered all that you mentioned above
Not a particularly apt comparison. In Boston, not only were they burying a complete Interstate highway of 8 to 12 lanes, complete with on/off ramps and ventilation (subways are simple by comparison!) but they also had to keep the existing elevated interstate above it operating.
The subway analogy to this would be the Herald Square construction, where the IND was built through the existing BMT and PATH maze while the Sixth Avenue El rumbled overhead.
And in Boston they also threw in a third harbor tunnel.
Boston did do something interesting with the Orange Line. They located the new line in an open ditch, so that they saved $$$ otherwise needed to create a subway roof. Tunnels are short and needed only to pass under crossing streets.
Not much different from parts of the Brighton or Sea Beach. And like the Sea Beach--next to a mainline RR. Not too likely in Manhattan this century.
No place in Manhattan to do it.
"Look at Boston, they tried to have it both ways and they suffered all that you mentioned above, it just took 3 times as long and cost 4 times as much."
I am well aware of the Botson debacle, and how cost overruns cast such a negative image on large construction projects.
However, you are really comparing apples and oranges here.
In Boston, like almost a dozen or so double-decker lanes of traffick needed to be burried relatively close to the surface complete with entrance and exit ramps. Subway and rail tunneling is relatively simple by comparison.
A more appropriate example may be to look at other recent (post 1965 or so) subway construction around the country, such as the Los Angeles Red Line and the 63rd Street line, to name but a few.
I'm not saying there won't be cost overruns, but surface disruptions will be less than Boston,
MATT-2AV
My point was that Boston ran into trouble by trying to keep the old freeway open while building the new one. They should have just bitten the bullet and closed the central artery down for the duration of the construction project.
They should have just bitten the bullet and closed the central artery down for the duration of the construction project.
That's like saying close down the entire W 4th St complex for the duration. That chunk of interstate not only is the main artery up the coast, but also connects in another interstate whose number I forget.
There would just be no place for the traffic to go, and the main concern was semis. Routing a few thousand semis a day onto the 18th century street plan of Boston would just have been impossible.
That's like saying close down the entire W 4th St complex for the duration. That chunk of interstate not only is the main artery up the coast, but also connects in another interstate whose number I forget.
The main costal artery, I-95, is routes around boston. I-93 goes into Boston. People would have learned to use I-95 as a bypass.
That may be fine for Boston, but you just can't draw a connection here with regards to their sequencing and phasing of construction. Now if you want to draw a connection with cost overruns, well, that's another matter,
MATT-2AV
>>>They should have just bitten the bullet and closed the central artery down for the duration of the construction project.<<<
Easy to say, if you don't live there.
Peace,
ANDEE
The portion of the 63rd Street Line under Central Park and LA's Metro Red Line section under MacArthur Park may be compared. The TA suffered from the City's budget problems and delays, but the construction itself was solid, with every last boulder in Central Park being restored.
The lake at MacArthur Park was drained, and the whole park was screwed up for the longest time while Tutor Saliba tried to figure out what to do about incompetently poured concrete, bad concrete, etc. etc. A royal screw-up, fixed eventually. People in NY were inconvenienced, but NYCTA did a much better job on all levels than RTD did in LA.
Unfortunately on the east side the downtown avenues are already more congested than the uptown, partly because Lex is narrower than 3rd and 2nd is narrower than 1st, and 5th is just a mess.
Banning traffic on 2nd ave would be great, but the economic impact would unfortunately be immense. What do you say to the thousands of store owners whose cost of each delivery goes up by $100 to compensate for the longer delivery times?
The plan has been changed from "Cut & Cover" to tunneling. Tunneling has the advantage of getting under all the lines in the street (water, gas, elect, phone), but increases the cost.
I don't think this is anything more then another study. Pataki & Bloomberg are already beating the empty pockets drum & we know the MTA has a BIG hole in it's budget, so without a bond issue the STUBway ain't going to happen.
Mr rt__:^)
I'd really love to see the second avenue subway built just as much as anyone else here, but holy shit.....12 billion dollar estimate?? i dont think they can justify that great expense on this line. As much as I think subways should come first, i think that money should be spent to replace the Gowanus expressway first. Its a more pressing issue.
holy shit.....12 billion dollar estimate?? i dont think they can justify that great expense on this line.
How do you justify? As compared to what? Adding more trains to existing lines? Building stadiums? Buying B-2 bombers? Whatever justifications were needed happened long ago. Now it's a question of political power.
As much as I think subways should come first, i think that money should be spent to replace the Gowanus expressway first. Its a more pressing issue.
To who? Two different audiences. Transit riders and east-side Manhattanites want the subway. Drivers and truckers want a better Gowanus, and the neighborhood wants a buried Gowanus (see RPA study on feasibility of burying it).
And I'm sure some in Gowanus would like to bury the rest of the city.
:0)
(holy shit.....12 billion dollar estimate?? i dont think they can justify that great expense on this line. )
They are counting on federal funding.
I just came back from the Transportation Research Board conference in Washington DC. The TA sent me down there. The Federal Transit Agency (FTA) is trying to get the Republican Congress and President to reauthorize any spending for transit at all, in the face of budget deficits and cuts. The cost of the Second Avenue and other NY area projects such as LIRR to GCT is just about equal to many, many years of FTA "new starts" funding. At current funding, if we get our projects the rest of the country will get nothing.
But that's not where they are going. They want to spread it around to congressional districts to ensure reauthorization. Some rural district where no one will ride is more likely to get a new subway than NYC.
Look at the bright side. I'm sure that somewhere on the other side of Washington, the Department of Agriculture was trying to come up with a way to spread money around to ensure the reauthorization of agricultural subsidies. So we won't get the Second Avenue Subway. But I might get federal subsidies for my backyard vegtable garden in Brooklyn.
We'll get our infrastructure improvements when all federal infrastructure funding -- road, transit, water project, etc. -- is eliminated. Then well fund what really matters locally, instead of sending money to Washington and begging for some of it back.
We'll get our infrastructure improvements when all federal infrastructure funding -- road, transit, water project, etc. -- is eliminated. Then well fund what really matters locally, instead of sending money to Washington and begging for some of it back.
Absolutely. How much longer do you think it will be before we start seeing more toll roads in the area? I'd guess that within ten years, E-ZPass will be standard equipment, at least for cars registered in New York, the now-free East River bridges will be tolled. The next step is the parkways and expressways. Ideally, I'd like to see ubiquitous electronic tolling, on all streets, with direct user fees applied to all who choose to drive (and park) on the city's streets, with all funding coming from the tolls.
If the good people of Idaho want a new highway (or, for that matter, a new light rail line), that's very nice, but why should we New Yorkers be paying for it?
On a related topic, here's an interesting story from Wednesday's San Francisco Chronicle about the federal government cutting off $716 million in funding for all highway and mass transit projects in the Bay Area until they develop a plan that falls within Federal Clean Air Act standards.
While the cuts also hit some planned rail projects, the basic idea seems to be to force the Bay Area pols to eventually go more towards mass transit in order to get their funding, and the fact that this is a Republican administration telling the heavily-Democratic area of San Francisco-Oakland to do this (though the demands started under the Clinton Administration) gives the story a slightly man-bites-dog twist to it. Wonder if they plan to do the same thing in other areas, like New York?
(While the cuts also hit some planned rail projects, the basic idea seems to be to force the Bay Area pols to eventually go more towards mass transit in order to get their funding)
The basic idea seems to be cutting off funds to areas that vote Democratic. Mass transit projects were cut, not just roads, and Bush doesn't want any restrictions on burning oil. Funds were not cut off to Houston. New York could be next.
Just another move to redistribute money to the sunbelt, with the added political twist of blaming the environmentalists (not that they are above blame).
Shrub and his Enron buttbuddies have REPEATEDLY screwed New York ... you can see it in the state budget that will never balance. Nice to know Texas and Kentucky are getting more mass transit though.
Yeh replace it with a Subway Line ;)
Stops would be at 116th, 106th, 96th, 86th, 72nd, 54th-57th, 42nd, 34th, 23rd, 14th, Houston and Grand Sts.,
Does the fact that it will stop at Grand mean they have decided not to use the Nassau Subway? Or can it swing around to Canal on the JMZ after stopping at Grand?
You couls swing around to Canal after Grand, but the article also referred to stops at Chatham Square and 2 more stops further south to be decided later. This definitely looks like a Water St route.
They could add a connector to the Nassau line at Delancey for not much extra money. This was mentioned in the article as a possible alternative, not as an additional option.
So, Crain's NY Business News has an article on the plans for the new 7 WTC and says they're almost done.
Re/an earlier thread, "SOM architect David Childs says the building's design calls for a structure that will be a significant improvement on the original [1987] 7 WTC. It will have taller ceilings ... make greater use of Greenwich Street, which was blocked off by the WTC complex: Plans call for an entrance and a glass lobby at the end of the street, integrating the building better with the neighborhood at street level. The building will be slightly taller than the original 7 WTC but have about the same amount of floor space, about 2 million square feet."
Damnit. There goes any hope of a restored Greenwich Street. At best, even if they lay Greenwich back over the WTC site, it'll have a corner of this new building sticking into it with great north and south views along the street corridor from the lobby.
GodDAMNit.
Though I can't say I'm surprised. This is why the city should never, EVER demap streets. The resulting superplots are just too damned attractive to developers.
So looks like the IRT rebuild will be the first permanent new construction, closely followed by work on the new 7 WTC. (Wonder if they'll rename it? The whole concept of a World Trade Center is obsolete now; everything is world trade. But the name has so much resonance people may want to retain it.)
And without such development, a city dies. So what planet are you from?
-Hank
And without such development, a city dies. So what planet are you from?
I'm from NYC. And, Hank, had you read any of the lengthy earlier thread on 7 WTC, you wouldn't have made this comment/attack.
I am for development. I am much more for *good* development. And I am for development that makes the surroundings better and more desirable. The WTC complex, including the previous 7 WTC, was by and large NOT good development, by which I mean: integrated into its neighborhood, a place that not only tourists but neighbors voluntarily go to spend time, and one that has a mix of uses so that people are there outside office hours.
One way to achieve some of these goals is to tie new development into the existing street grid, which is really what defines Manhattan. The WTC landed like a spaceship and obliterated a large part of the pre-existing grid. Streets are the organizing principle through which people in a dense urban area locate themselves. The WTC complex was pretty disorienting to get around, especially underground where you couldn't see the Twin Towers to locate yourself.
Most of the growing number of proposals for redesign and rebuilding include restoration of at least some of the street axes, whether or not they have vehicle traffic on them. That's why I mourn the lost opportunity to restore that little demapped portion of Greenwich.
So much of the street grid would YOU wanna demap to allow untrammeled development, huh?
> and one that has a mix of uses so that people
> are there outside office hours.
Maybe the office buildings don't have many people in them but I can't remember ever seeing a time, off hours, where the WTC concourse was not teeming with people. During "reasonable" off hours, of course. Like till midnight on weekdays and 8am-midnight on weekends.
The lower level concourse was, in recent years, a defacto mall which drew people from outside the area. I was once there on a Sunday, most offices were closed, and it was quite busy.
The lower level concourse was, in recent years, a defacto mall which drew people from outside the area. I was once there on a Sunday, most offices were closed, and it was quite busy.
True, but it did nothing for street life or the area around it. Some of that activity can be translated to surrounding streets -- especially now that Hudson River Park and Battery Park City are so popular -- rather than kept out of sight.
I loved that concourse mall. I did all my 2000 Christmas shopping while at work, and I was never bothered by bad weather. In fact, some days I never went outsideagain after I entered the subway system in the AM until I exited the system in the PM.
>>>>I loved that concourse mall. I did all my 2000 Christmas shopping while at work, and I was never
bothered by bad weather. In fact, some days I never went outsideagain after I entered the subway
system in the AM until I exited the system in the PM. <<<
True enough...in bad weather you could travel from Flushing to a lot of stores in lower Manhattan and never step outside (LIRR to Penn, #1 to Cortlandt) . I did that a lot.
I do feel the waterfront should be better integrated with whatever goes up there whether that involves rebuilding the streets or not.
In NYC though, once streets are removed, they never go back, sort of like RR lines are never reactivated.
www.forgotten-ny.com
BTW The Flushing Mall has opened near Prince and 39th, just west of the Sheraton hotel, it's pretty nice. No, it's not the size of the WTC mall but it's pretty neat!
I concur. In college I used to take the 1 train to Cortland Street to pick up the Path to Pavonia-Newport to go to the mall (Tax free shopping on clothes in Jersey- woohoo!) on the weekends, it it was quite busy. It would also be relatively busy when my dad would get off his night shift at 12:30am as a janitor to take the E train home. I've been in the underground mall pretty much any day of the week, any hour of the day (Except 2:00 am-6:00am) and always managed to see an unexpectedly high number of people there.
On a somewhat unrelated note, has anyone here ever watched the lobby of the WTC towers on a weekday morning before 9:00am or at quitting time? It was an ordered chaos- and yet everyone knew exactly which way to walk so as to not interfere and proceed unimpeded... and every so often, you'd watch a visitor or a tourist muck up the whole works. Absoultely amazing.
Used to be fun walking across the open area where the PATH lets out from 5 WTC towards 2 WTC, especially when a train was emptying out, with great masses of people criss-crossing one another with no collisions.
The WTC complex, including the previous 7 WTC, was by and large NOT good development, by which I mean: integrated into its neighborhood, a place that not only tourists but neighbors voluntarily go to spend time, and one that has a mix of uses so that people are there outside office hours.
Have you ever heard of something called zoning? Zoning put the various human activities (residential, bussiness, retail, industrial) into seperate regions so that the seperate needs of each won't impact on the others. If you get people living at the WTC site they will soon be complaining that the malls are too loud. Malls and residents might protest expansion by bussinesses. Mixed use is what leads to NIMBYism. If we seperate the uses everyone can do what they want and not piss everyone else off. Furthermore, if you design an office complex that is always crowded who on earth would want to work there? They might so somewhere where they have the option to leave/arrive late/early and not have to deal w/ crowds.
One way to achieve some of these goals is to tie new development into the existing street grid, which is really what defines Manhattan.
The Manhattan street grid is TOO SMALL. Steets should be no smaller than 1/10th of a mile appart. NYC streets are 1/20th. The result is insufficient space for construction.
Most of the growing number of proposals for redesign and rebuilding include restoration of at least some of the street axes, whether or not they have vehicle traffic on them. That's why I mourn the lost opportunity to restore that little demapped portion of Greenwich.
Streets are a thing of the past. People should use specially designed pedestrian concourses. This way vehicles and people need not fight for the same space. This system works in philly.
If we seperate the uses everyone can do what they want and not piss everyone else off.
This philosophy is what caused suburban sprawl. Seprating everything means that people have to travel to do anything they want. The result of this is all the traffic congestion clogging the nations roads. Mixed use is far superior and is making a come back after a long slumber since the 50s.
Suburban sprall is a result of poor city planning. Suburbs should be like mini-cities, with a core of retail and bussinesses, grid streets and a trainst connection to the urb that they are sub of.
You're right. Suburbs should be like you say. I made a post about that back in the summer. But remember that planning begins with zoning. And good zoning does not segregate commercial from residential. The central core would likey have way more commercial than residential, but that does not mean you can't have commercial within the residential where it exists.
You know how people will move in next to a railroad/factory and then bitch about the noise (lawsuits etc.) even though the RR was there first? Well imagine if residents and the industry got there at the same time. Bye bye industry and with it goes your whole planned community.
I never said Industry should be mixed with residential, factories and similiar SHOULD be segregated.
Mike: You and I have gone through this before. Clearly you have violent disagreements with the evolution of what many people consider to be sound urban planning. I'd be curious to know where you live now?
If you get people living at the WTC site
Something like 10,000 people *already* live in Battery Park City, which is about a 3-minute walk from where the WTC used to be. Remember?
They live in a segrigated residential area that is built on what is basically a pier/peninsula into the Hudson. While they would be better off in Bayone it still prooves my point.
prooves my point.
Do you have proff?
We know that the verb “to prove” and its derivatives, cause problems for some of the posters here. Please, leave well-enough alone!
John
The Manhattan street grid of 1/20 mile is not too small at all. It is perfect for the 4-12 story residential buildings that still make up much of the island. It's hard to build those buildings more than 60' deep and still provide reasonable light.
It is also ample for a large office building. A west midtown block is 900'x200' of buildable space, allowing a 12 story office building to be over 2 million square feet! Considering it was thought out in 1800 or so, it has served us very well.
However, the street grid around the WTC is probably from 1680 (give or take). It is admittedly too small for good office buildings (I always find the needle-like skyscraper on Pine St to be pretty amazing, but it doesn't allow for much space per floor).
So obviously we don't want to see a new WTC where every original street is restored and repoened to vehicles. But a few straight-through pedestrian malls would be nice.
I wouldn't particularly want to see Greenwich Street back with cars on it. This article does leaves open the possibility that there would be a pedestrian mall through the building on the route that Greenwich St used to take. That would be nice, though admittedly not promised by the article.
A pedestrian mall is better. It's rainproof, the old building had no entrance to speak of at the Barclay Street side.
Oh, and trapezoid is a better shape for a building's base than parallelogram.
Dude, I began examining the area after your last post, and I can't agree with you. As Jersey Mike said deeper in somewhere, the blocks are too damn small.
Take a look at this satellite photo (warning, 2MB)
If Greenwich was not demapped, it wouldn't leave any amount of worthwhile space between it and West Broadway, and a rather small block between it and the Barclay-Vesey Building. That street just had to go.
And even if you let it through, would you have it intersect with West Broadway or not? The Federal Building (I think thats what it said on its facade) pushes West Broadway pretty close to where a straight line projection of Greenwich leads. If you do, I fear the place will be less pedestrian friendly than the old West Broadway terminal intersection was. I never liked non-right angle avenue intersections with the bits and pieces of triangle blocks. If you don't intersect them, then that turn kills the great street corridor views with the twist that is required.
Its a low volume street anyway. And I think it gives the immediate area a nice calm feeling. With all the schools and residential structures in the area, I think being set off from the hectic commercial district is fine. That one block on Chambers between Greenwich and West Broadway has a wonderful buffering effect on the city.
I began examining the area after your last post, and I can't agree with you. ... the blocks are too damn small.
Oh, I'm not suggesting putting back all 14 little tiny blocks. But there needs to be some kind of rectilinear organization to the former-WTC superblock.
If Greenwich was not demapped, it wouldn't leave any amount of worthwhile space between it and West Broadway, and a rather small block between it and the Barclay-Vesey Building. That street just had to go.
West Broadway met Greenwich in a triangle at Vesey before 7 WTC was built, so it's not relevant. I'm not proposing putting it back.
And yeah, the area between Greenwich and Church is wedge-shaped (narrower at the south). That's fixable if you run Greenwich slightly to the west at its south end (moving it off the roof of the IRT). But I'd settle for restoration of Washington Street instead, though its southern end is just a stub rather than the major traffic artery that Greenwich is.
Most important, though, are east-west connectors. From the north, you used to have Fulton, Dey and Cortlandt (with Vesey on the north and Liberty on the south as the WTC boundaries). At minimum one, but preferably two or even three (unlikely) should be restored. They'll greatly facilitate travel to/from the WFC and BPC, finally connecting them into the rest of downtown.
Remember, looking west from Church Street at many points, you had no idea that WFC was there. The twin towers and hotel presented a solid wall. That's what I'm hoping they solve.
Guilford Rail System’s track between Portland, Maine, and Plaistow, N.H., is safe for 79-mph Amtrak operation, according to an analysis of test data by the Transportation Technology Center.
...
The trains entered service last month, running at 60 mph over the 78 miles of Guilford trackage on the 114-mile route...
But the TTC analysis of the test data said that, aside from 166 feet of track, the line meets the standards for rail flex.
from Trains magazine online, registration needed to access article
I posted that news 3 days ago.
I've been busy.
Read my Cleveland Trip report. BTW I got my new digital camera so now you have some competition :-p BTW, can you turn the flash on yours off? What are the best batteries to use?
I have to turn the flash on by opening a hinged gizmo. My camera uses special super-dooper batteries that I never heard of. The highest quality regular batteries are recommended for use only in an emergency, and only briefly. I've gotten 80 pics out of one pair of batteries (I have 2 pairs and a charger, that came with the camera), without using flash. Adjusting optical zoom and looking at recent pics in the monitor will use up the charge, too. I did both of those when I got the 80 pix.
Mine uses either 4 AA Alkiline or two of these special Li batteries that that can fit a double AA slot. The camera came w/ 4 AA batteries so I would assume they are OK to use. Did you have to buy your batteries/charger or did they come w/ the camera? My flash is of the always on type and there is a flash menu, but I do not believe there is a way to turn them off completely. This is a pain in the ass if not for having to cover the flash, but for the wasted energy.
If I recall correctly, what you posted was that Amtrak was seeking approval for 79 mph operation. What he posted was the test results showing that the ROW passed muster.
Good news regardless. Deserved repetition, so more railfans can be aware of it.
If I recall correctly, what you posted was that Amtrak was seeking approval for 79 mph operation.
Yes, he posted that, but he also posted TTC Report Claims Amtrak Downeaste Good For 79 MPH, which apparently we both missed. I guess the title wasn't eye-catching enough.
I've seen that many redbirds are mixed with R29s and R33s etc coupled together. However, while waiting for a F train at East Broadway, an A train was diverted onto the F line. Seeing an R38 as the lead car and the first few didn't surprise me, but what did was the last five cars were all R32 Brightliners. I was on car 3493 but the lead car was 41XX. I don't ride the A, C line often, but is this common?
I've seen it myself, too...even though it was like....4 years or so ago....
Stuart, RLine86Man
R32s are mixed with R38s sometimes on the (A) and (C). I've seen it before. Also R40Ms are regularly mixed with R42s on the Eastern Division lines. R68's can also be mixed with R68As, if indeed those count as different car classes.
:-) Andrew
I thought 68's and 68A's weren't mixed because of different braking?
I've seen even stranger train mixing. During the Williamsburg Bridge reonstrution bak in 1998, I saw a 10-car train: four R42's and six R32's!
There's a picture on this site with an R40 slant on the same train as an R38, and there's even one of an R42 and an R10 on an A train. That's the strangest!
I've seen crazier, but it was in the yard. As I was heading towards 86th St from CI on the N (when it went to CI), I remember this one time seeing 2 R32s, 2 R68s, and 2 R40s moving through the yard. Quite interesting.
I used to see R-32s mixed with R-42s on D trains back in the smorgasbord train era. It's not done all that often anymore. All SMEE cars could operate together. On the IRT, it was common practice for years.
R142 and R142A are compatible.
NOT completely ... I recall some testing was done with lashups of both carbodies and they bucked and fought one another. Granted, not a MAJOR incompatibility but it seemed sufficient that they probably won't get mixed unless there's some SERIOUS desperation ...
They are not compatible enough to run in revenue service together. They have different software and braking pressures. They are only supposed to be moved together in yards when necessary.
Shawn.
Then you have the R-44s and R-46s, which are not compatible with each other.
R68's can also be mixed with R68As, if indeed those count as different car classes.
How do you tell the difference between them?
There are many differences (at least 15 minor differences) but the easiest way is the car numbers, 68s begin with 2 and 68As begin with 5.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's the easiest if you have that sort of memory. I don't, so I resort to other cues.
The most obvious is the (transverse) cab door: it swings on the R-68 and it slides on the R-68A (complete with cutout notch for the handle). Somewhat less obvious, and a bit difficult to explain (but if you see it, you'll understand), is the joint between the vertical rail on either side each side door and the lower horizontal rail -- it's seamless on the R-68A. There are other differences but I just don't see them.
Or you can cheat. The R-68A never shows up on the B or D (in their current forms). The R-68A very rarely shows up on the circle-Q (I believe there's one assigned in the afternoon rush, and all others are R-68). The R-68A somewhat rarely shows up on the N (none are assigned but the N will take anything it gets). The R-68A always shows up on the W (I don't think I've seen anything but).
68A's on the Q does happen frequently. August 27, 2001 there were about 4 trainsets of R68A's running there along with the 68's. The Q diamond gets 1 to about 2 during the rush hours. The W always has them, except 1 8 car set does run there like the B had. The N has the 68A's run there too, I rode on one during the Holidays (lead car #5124), and even had the black-speckaled floors.
I thought the circle-Q had only one assigned R-68A trainset, and that only in the afternoon. Either I'm misremembering or the car assignments are not being strictly followed (no great surprise in either case). I've never ridden an R-68A on the Q.
I've never seen (personally) an R-68 or R-68A on the diamond-Q. I once thought I was boarding one, northbound at 42, in an attempt to catch an N/R/W that I had just missed, but we pulled in on the southbound track and all the other signs had circles, so I assume the bulkhead sign was set wrong.
I find more R-68A's than R-68's on the N, even though no R-68A's are supposed to be on the N at all. The one I rode on Monday had some black floors and some brown floors.
common? I see something like that at least 2 times in a week. AT LEAST.
It's not unusual to find an R32 - 38 (C) train. Usually the R38 cars lead the train while the R32's are in the rear. I've only seen the mixups on an (A) train a couple of times.
So have I. At least they blend together stylistically. On the IRT, the R-12s and R-14s used to stick out like sore thumbs in a mixed consist.
yea thats true with the R38s on the downtown Cs usually. But headed uptown u see R32s on the C and R38s on the tail especially during the eve rush hour. Its hard to tell a C from a E until ur up close
Usually the R38 cars lead the train while the R32's are in the rear.
Wouldn't that change after the train relays?
Yes it would. I rode on an R-32/38 A train once with 8 R-32s and a pair of R-38s tacked onto the Manhattan-bound end.
>>>...but what did was the last five cars were all R32 Brightliners<<<
That would surprise me too! Since the r32s are married pairs it could not be 5 cars it would have to be 4 or 6.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're probably right. I was standing at the end of the platform and you know how windy it is at East Broadway with the trains coming out of the Tunnel. I just thought it would be R38s all the way, so I didn't really count the cars.
The mixed sets I've come across are usually 4+6 of either R/32 and R/38's. Either could be the dominant number.
It's the rare GE R/32 that is found in a 2+6 or 2+8 mix of cars with the R/38s in the majority.
I still have hopes for a marriage between cousins, Slant R/40s and r/40Ms . If it's only looks and not systems that differ.
Speaking of GE R/32s, are they all on the road now? No more Canibilization?
Are the R/110Bs earning their keep as well?
avid
The main reason why I loved the Redbirds was that they were simple mechanically. The more complicated they make the machinery, the easier it becomes to gum up the works.
Well then, maybe you should try finding a nice used Pacer to drive, because today's cars are pretty complex. You might also want to try finding an airline that flies with propeller planes, because most jet aircraft is mechanically complex as well. And watch out for them brand-new Pentium 4 computers. Way more complex than good ol' reliable Coomdore 64.
Very well said.
I love how people's fear of change/technology/the future/etc. gets translated into r142 hatred.
MATT-2AV
Hey, it happens in EVERY aspect of society when it comes to something we techies like to call "PROGRESS" :)
Stuart, RLine86Man
The commodore 64's a pretty complicated piece of machinery. It can do colour and graphics. Give the guy a Commodore PET instead, he'll appreciate the sheer simplicity of the green-on-black text only display.
-Robert King
I don't want the Pacer, but my cousin's '68 Impala was more fun and easier to fix than my '99 Camry will ever be. It was absolutely bulletproof and reliable.
...my cousin's '68 Impala was more fun and easier to fix than my '99 Camry will ever be.
Not that I'm any fan of Toyota or imported cars in general (our family fleet consists of four Fords), but I have to believe that your Camry will need a lot less fixing than the Impala. I owned a 1968 Caprice Estate with the hi-po 327 (375 hp, back when they rated them on a test stand with no exhaust or accessories - the practical equivalent of about 200 hp by modern methods, I believe; my Caprice was one of only 41 built with that motor). I had the motor rebuilt around 80K and in general it spent at least one day a month in the shop during the 12 months / 25K miles I owned it. It was wrecked (at 94K) when a woman in a Corona wagon ran a red light at 60 mph; the fellow I sold it to rebuilt it a few years later and last I saw it (in the mid-'90s) it looked VERY nice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20020118/1010701.asp
I guess by law they are required to hold public hearing just for the heck of it. Then they go ahead and make the cut no matter what the public wants.
I remember watching a televised public hearing regarding the NYC Subway fare. The last person was Jack May (a fan by hobby and by profession) who accuse Dr. Ronan and the MYA board of changing the turnstyle during the hearing for the new tokens. Dr. Ronan did not say much, but the fare did go up after the "Public Hearing".
I remember that hearing...it was also about discontinuing the MTA Passes for students in NYC...and obviously they didn't do that, although they did change it to a form of Metrocard (but that was WAY after I finished :-D )
Stuart, RLine86Man
Quite a different attitude than they had in the 80's when they solved a budget crisis by operating until the money ran out and shut down.
The shut down lasted a day or two when they got their required funding.
Mitch,
The r142's had their flaws, and simple vent holes will prevent an explosion like this from happening again. The fact is that the R142s are a BIG HIT w/ riders and many subtalkers thanks to its technology that is not found on the rusted, corroded (yet I'll admit nostolgic) redbirds. -Nick
...simple vent holes will prevent an explosion like this from happening again.
NO!!! If the batteries are generating a steady stream of hydrogen and oxygen, due to overcharging at a high rate, then contact of the hydrogen with a spark will cause this mixture to ignite. The flame will follow the fuel source back to the battery case as well as igniting anything combustible that the gas path may have come in contact with. Any exposed electrical contact with voltage in excess of 48 volts is deemed capable of producing such a spark, according to the National Electrical Code.
I don't know, if there would be any safe way to vent the hydrogen gas in a tunnel. However, in open atmosphere, an exhaust pipe would be needed to make sure that the hydrogen and oxygen gases were vented clear of any spark or heat source. Moreover, this pipe would have to equipped with a flashback arrester to insure that if the gas did ignite, the fire would be cut off from the fuel source.
I seriously doubt the explosion was H/O directly related. CI Peter
I seriously doubt the explosion was H/O directly related.
Peter-
What do you think it was? Charging?
Mark
Charging. We heard of no evidence of any metallic objects left behind. Everyone has worked with the nicad cells for years without incident....now the PA rings everyday with reminders to wear protective safety equipment. One thing that has been discovered in inspection: loose or undertight battery buss nuts. Nutz. CI Peter
It's the technology, you think? Which element of the technology do you think they like?
Except for the minor detail that they're old (and all that comes with that), the Redbirds are much better from the usability standpoint.
Several weeks ago there were two Ebay auctions for switch keys that were supposedly from the NYC subway system. One was marked NYRT, and the other BMT.
Both keys looked to have been well used, at least from the picture with each auction. They had the same appearance as the brass keys that used to be used on the freight railroads to unlock switchlocks.
I had always assumed that all track switches were controlled from the towers on the subway system.
Was there ever a time that the subway system really did use keys, and actually have to manually throw switches, if not on the main line, perhaps in the yards?
Hi, Karl. Good question.
I think I might have an answer: is it possible that those are not switch keys in the sense of use on the actual mechanism, but the key to the LOCK on many of the switch throw arms.
Not sure, since I'm not an expert here.
BMTman
The keys seemed to be the exact same size and shape as those used on large switchlocks on the freight railroads. Those padlocks had to be unlocked and removed before the switch could be thrown. This operation was normally done by a member of the train crew, after the train movement was completed, the switch was returned to normal, and relocked.
I just can't imagine a motorman or a conductor having to do this on the subway system, even back in the old days.
If I'm right, then I wonder what these keys were used for.
Right, that's what I mean -- that went to the padlock and not any kind of mechanism.
We have padlocks on the switches on the line at Branford, but all the locks have been 'modernized' and are the common 'masterlock' type that you can get in any hardware store.
BMTman
Huh, check out the signal cases, there ain't no masterlock on them there cases. You are refering to one switch stand and those call on buttons, the signal/relay cases all have those funky signal type padlocks (not #3 Masterlocks, keyed alike).
They probably bought them to keep YOU from doing a Luciano with the PCC. Heh.
Ob. You definitely hit THAT nail on the head.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. I'm not worried about riding a gate car with Dougie up front ... not even the S curve ... but man, he'd better stay OUT of 1689 if he knows what's good for him. Nyuknyuk.
>>>I'm not worried about riding a gate car with Dougie up front ... <<<
You SHOULD be...8))
Peace,
ANDEE
Not at all ... I've actually met him in person and he's not as wild-eyed as I expected ... except on the Franklin shuttle, but that's another story. Then again, on our outing, it was Dougie, Bill Newkirk, Harry Beck, HeyPaul and Bingbong and I ... not exactly poster children for sanity. So Dougie got to become row captain without much work. :)
Kevin, Back on topic, Were you issued a 2 & 1/4" brass switch key when you worked for the TA so many years ago?
Yep ... along with a 3 inch plunger and of course the fabled "butt plug" ... on a nice brass hoop chain as well.
That 2 & 1/4" long brass switch key, where did you use it?
You certainly did not have to unlock switchlocks on track switches, did you?
Not once ... like several of the issued keys, you had them in case you needed them but they never went into a hole. On my chain there was even an old BMT "coasting key" that I never knew WHAT it went to. But the old S key was regularly used. Go figger. :)
A coasting key _may_ have been one used by the dispatcher to
reset the coasting clock, which was present on many BRT/BMT
cars.
There were a bunch of keys on the standard brass chain back then, including lavatory keys, signal box keys, phone box keys, various door keys, and several unknowns. But yeah, there was a coasting key on there too ... didn't know WHAT it was until I saw a picture of that key on Joekorner ... and of course the magic butt plug. In fact, seeing that on Joe's place was what triggered all the memories in the first place. Been a LONG time. :)
Do you happen to have the URL? I'd like to see this "coasting
key"
Your wish is my command it is, it is ... ah ah ah ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/keys/index.html
You might enjoy this page as well:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/handles/index.html
I could sure use a set now.... I need them for a Bird I have locked away in a barn. Heh.
-Stef
Dang ... any motorperson worth their paddle knows how to do it with a short shank screwdriver. The keys were MERELY a formality. :)
???
A screwdriver? Geez, what can I do with that? Oh....... There are screwjobs out there. Lol.
This should be labeled Selkirk's tips and tactics on how to operate without keys:)
-Stef
Heh. Do you need keys to drive a car? Of course not ... only a matter of collecting the right bits of metal and knowing how to whittle them into what ya need. :)
But when I was on company property, I did laze out and use the proper implements. Wigs was watching. Heh.
Oh so it is was I thought, a coasting clock key. The clocks
are pretty rare, btw. The R-types up to R6, I think, had them,
so did the IRT cars up to the 1917 Lo-V order, I think the BMT
standards too. The use was discontinued as power got cheaper.
Yep ... pretty much what I gathered as well ... but I had that and a few other weirdies on the chain I was issued. It was such an unusual shape, the minute I saw it over at Joe's place I was amused. Thirty years later, FINALLY an explanation. :)
I saw those auctions, also. Those keys were regulation Adlake switch keys. In Chicago, the gater on closed CTA stations are locked with good old Adlake locks marked CTA.
Looks like the core group has come togather, here's the plan so far:
- Pacific St, Brooklyn: I'll be on the LIRR scheduled to arrive at 8:36, so 8:45-9 I'll be meeting up with the group. We'll go down to 36th, then walk to NY Cross Harbor.
- TA Museum at Grand Central Station: We'll be there about noon, probally do lunch somewhere, come back to museun, then walk to Red Caboose (maybe, maybe not), then head uptown via #5 to Dyre Ave. On the way back we'll stop at 180th to walk around, then catch another train south.
- Depending on the lateness of the day & the condition of our feet we may do #6 to Pelham or #2 to 241st (neither of which I've done yet)
Fare: One F-U-N P-A-S-S
Equipment: Railfan Window equiped, but of course !
If you are diffenately coming, you can reply to me directly, so we can look out for you. If you don't have that foamers kind of look (most of us do), then a mass transit article of clothing will help us meet up, I'll have my "Subway Series" hat on.
Mr rt__:^)
Is Monday regular service patterns?
Well, I can't speak on the LIRR or MNRR, but NYCT always runs weekday service on holidays like these.
Yes, subways are on a normal weekday schedule. MLK day is one of my favorite railfaning days (no work, less crowding, no schoolkids).
LIB should run on a regular schedule too. Will LIRR charge peak fares or waive them?
LIB should run on a regular schedule too. Will LIRR charge peak fares or waive them?
They're charging peak. As far as I know, peak fares are charged during peak hours whenever the LIRR is running on a normal weekday schedule.
MLK is one of the last days for a while where I'm off and everything's on a regular weekday schedule. Next are Passover and Good Friday, March 28 and 29 respectively. Other benefits are suspension of alternate side, affording more parking by subway stations, and generally less crowding.
The fall's much better for weekday holidays, what with Columbus, Election, Vets, the day after Thanksgiving (although shopping crowds can be a problem) and the high holy days- if they fall during the week. Unfortunately, Rosh Hoshana 2002 falls over a weekend, but we do get the following monday for Yom Kippur.
The majors- New Years', Memorial, the Fourth, Labor, Thanksgiving and Christmas are for all intents and purposes Sundays from a service standpoint.
In civil service the pay may be lacking, but the liberal holiday policy kinda makes up for it.
I will try to make the trip, or at least hook up at Grand Central if I can.
The agency I work for this year has 21 holidays (counting election day as a floater). >G<...
Next year there are fewer since one jewish holiday of note is on the weekend.
MNRR is running a weekend schedule on Monday, meaning off-peak fares. However, there are a few trains that have been added to this schedule, check your local station brochures for further info. Not sure if I will make it just yet, but I will definitely try to! -Nick
LIRR is regular weekday service - peak fares apply in AM westbound and PM eastbound.
I was afraid of that, at least there's no GOs ... according to the message on the phone line.
For those coming to the first part of the trip ... L-O-O-K out for all the changes as a result of the V & W, i.e. don't use an old map and ASSUME that train still runs, e.g. "B", "D", "3".
Mr rt__:^)
I appreciate the fact that you planned a trip to celebrate my wedding anniversary, but I'll be out of town (with my wife).
Darn! I'm going to be away on Monday. I guess I'll have to wait to see you and the other "usual suspects" again at a later date.
I resemble that remark < G >, as does the BMTman.
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
OK a weekday trip, that I can do since Sunday schedule at LIB is real frustrating! Sounds good, and I'll be there unless there's a snowstorm, wearing my Detroit Diesel cap (I know it's a bus thang)
John, I have a LIB cap that my daughter bought me for my birthday and where it at this depot just to see if anyone notices < G >
Mr rt__:^)
I might try to come if possible. Please note that you might see me wearing my black hood. Since few people wear it you probably won't miss me. If you can please tell me the routes which you might take because it is entirely possible I might meet you part way through. I might try to hook up at Grand Central or near that vicinity.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, refer to my original post, i.e. we'll probaly stop by the TA Museum twice, first about noon, when we arrive, 2nd after lunch at a fast food place, so some where about 12:30-12:45 will be your last chance to catch up with us.
The BMTman wants to go to the Red Caboose, we'll probally go there after lunch.
Mr rt__:^)
That sounds good. Please tell anyone if they get a little concerned about my hood I'm must wear it for an obvious reason.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, You'll be amoung friends. Don't call attention to yourself & folks will simply think you realy love trains, which you do < G >
Looking forward to seeing you again.
Mr rt__:^)
I'm sure that I'll look interesting to people if I'm standing in front of the railfan window of a Slant R-40 while wearing the hood.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm going to try to make it. But, I have to work on Monday so I will have to catch up with you at GCT. Hope to see you then.
Peace,
ANDEE
The BMTman says he's going to call and remind you as we pass the site of that famous wreck, actually we don't plan on going anywhere near the Franklin Shuttle < G >
Seriously, hope that you can make it.
Mr rt__:^)
SPEAKING of the Franklin Shuttle, how about THIS STORY?
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow! Looks like the Franklin Shuttle took a sidetrack to the lawless Wild, Wild, West!
Just glad no one was seriously hurt in the craziness...
BMTman
Dougie ... you mean to say the Franklin is *dangerous*??? We coulda been KILLED out there? Wowsers ... my space suit's feeling kinda tight now. Heh.
Your "spacesuit" has been "tight" for years. IMHO.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Sshhhhhh! That tight space suit managed to get many a cab "blessed" ... heh.
Yeah, sounds like your space jammies got a brown streak....;-D
Heh. Not likely ... I was born and raised in the Bronx, moved upstate where the wild west gunrack is a necessary piece of decor. I pity da fool. :)
Thank goodness that there wasn't a repeat of the Malbone St. wreck.
#3 West End Jeff
If I'm assigned to OPTO the Franklin Shuttle, I would demand the right to carry a gun. And if I had a gun that day, there would be 200 mothers with dead children in Brooklyn.
So that's your response to rowdy teenagers?
My answer is tumbrils and guillotines.
The operator felt threatened enough to run away from his train into the tunnel. "Rowdy teenagers" is hardly the phrase for a violent mob of 200 criminals attempting to attack someone. Chris R27-R30's answer, in addition to leaving 200 greiving mothers would have prevented thousands of probable future violent crimes. Whose side are you on -- the criminals or the victims (as if I had to ask)?
Alan Glick
I'm on the side of law enforcement -- we have cops so citizens don't take matters into their own hands, like they did with lynchings, pogroms, etc.
It's not a matter of lynchings or pogroms. It's self defense. There is a big difference.
Alan Glick
Pretty much
It is NYCT policy that its' employees are not allowed to carry firearms during the performance of their duties.
Thurston,
I'm in for some subfanning with you guys Monday. I emailed you, but I'm not sure if you'll get it before Monday since the address was, I assume, your work address. Where exactly will you meet in Brooklyn and what time?
Keystone Pete
I happened to go to shea today to see what was doing over at Casey Stengel( Looking for extra orions) then on the subway side I happen to notice car # 8954 catching my attention. There is 10 of these cars now sitting in corona yard. All signed up for # 5. These cars must have arrived last night/this morning.theres more to come REDBIRDS RULE!!!!!!!
I've seen Mainline R-33s on the #7 line before. I saw some Mainline R-33s in 1993.
#3 West End Jeff
Not so fast! I understand that there was a problem. The mainline R33s in the yard have the New York Air brake package. When the single car unit with the original A1 operating unit brake package was added in to make up 11 cars, voila! Stuck brakes. Stay tuned.
Car Equipment will use that as an excuse to run their 10 car sets. Bye Bye Worstinghouses!
I love it!
>>When the single car unit with the original A1 operating unit brake package was added in to make up 11 cars, voila! Stuck brakes. Stay tuned.<<
Aren't they running a set or two of mainline cars mixed with the current R-33/36 Flushing cars ? Any stuck nrake problems reported ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The mainline cars that are running on the 7 line came from the Pelham fleet, 9526-7 to 9556-7 (whatever wasn't reefed). Those cars never had new air brake packages installed. They still have the A1 unit.
Uh-ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Ok, I'm in the inevitable post college search for a job, and I'm not finding anything up in CT :( I'm starting to look in the NY area, and naturally this means the MTA also...
Basically, I'm looking for something in the mechanical engineering field, or related, and entry level. Does anyone know of anything at the T/A, or any way's to contact them? Or even better, any "in's"? I know this is marginally on topic (sorry Dave), but I'm running out of ideas here.
Any help is apreciated - email me privatly or whatever.
Thanks! :)
Job hunting sucks :(
Somebody said Car Inspector is coming up again. It's a long process to go through the DCAS, though. Be prepeared to wait.
Check the MTA website
Car inspector posting is out until mid-February. So is bus maintainer. There is nothing in the engineering field right now.
TA work is EXCELLENT work so get that application in by the deadline. We newbies just got a raise: $23.095 per hour for provisionals!!!! The 'pick list' got a little cheesy towards the end so I transferred to another crew.......June 17th is the tentative date for exams and if the elegiblity list doesn't come out by then, I'll be there for a retest. Do it guys...you will not regret the change. Good Luck to ALL. CI Peter
Ok, so how do I do this? I'm guessing there's a formal application, resume submittal, and the 'test'? I haven't kept track of this process with the T/A, though :(
NYC DCAS is online and you can download the forms to print. I never knew about this work until a radio advertisement. I heard, I did, I done, I am a Car Inspector. CI Peter
I heard from the IND history section on this website that there is an alleged station under Jamaica Ave. at 212th Street and an alleged tunnel running along 73rd Ave. to Alley Pond Park. The "tracks after Euclid Ave." thread brought up the proposed station at 76th Street and got me thinking about those other two areas in Queens again. Does anybody have additional info. regarding 73rd and 212th or any other "ghost tunnels or stations". Personally, I think they're just rumors, somebody put out to stir things up, but I welcome any comments.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure these are rumors. It takes time and costs money to build these things--especially a tunnel all the way to Alley Pond Park. (I'd love it if that were there. There's be a subways station almost on my corner. But alas!)
Maybe at those 2 places some tunnel was built. Needless to say they were never connected. Something like the 3 pieces of the 2nd Ave Subway in Manhattan that were actually built.
There is one station on Hillside Av East of 179 Street. Anyone venture a guess where?
East Williston
ditto
avid
You got it Bob!!!
I have also heard conversations and seen threads about a supposed ghost station east of 179th st. There never was any kind of resolution except to say to that though interesting to speculate about, there probably was no partially built subway structure east of 188th st. beyond the layup track's bumping block. There was also speculation about a station structure under or near Creedmore, accessible from it's property (an underground utility passage or basement), with finish tiles/station name tablet etc. which to me, seemed far fetched.
Can you please tell me about the East Williston location? If it does exist, how much of the structure was built? Why and how do you know about this location? Board of Transportation plans or documents? Elderly East Williston residents, transit workers or people in transit construction who saw it? If this was constructed at all, it would have been pre-World War II probably? This is one I'd never heard of before. Why would this structure be built separately and a couple of miles east of the main Queens Boulevard route, starting in effect in the middle of nowhere rather than as an extension of an any already existing route? Could the plans have called for starting there and building due west to meet the route already on Hillside Ave? Interesting. I'd like to hear more.
I forgot that the topic was Ghost Stations. I just named the only existing station I knew of on Hillside Ave. east of 179th St. which, of course is East Williston! Sorry for the confusion
As for anything on the Creedmoor property, that has to be some sort of urban legend.
As for anything on the Creedmoor property, that has to be some sort of urban legend.
Creedmore was served by a remnant of the Central Branch until maybe 25 or 30 years ago. Could there have been an underground station on the property?
So far as i know, this was just freight on the line. A station, especially one underground, is unlikely.
What might explain the urban legend is that the campus likely contains utility tunnels for electricity, steam, etc. These are common on large hospital and college campuses.
East Williston is a LIRR station, very much in Nassau County. In fact, it's not exactly on Hillside Avenue. It is off NY 25B (which at that very point changes names from Hillside Ave to East Williston Ave) but on a side street.
:-) Andrew
East Willison was a joke. That's an outdoor LIRR station. It was stated as a joke.
>> There was also speculation about a station structure under or near Creedmoor, accessible from it's property (an underground utility passage or basement), with finish tiles/station name tablet etc. which to me, seemed far fetched. <<
Rumors of a complete subway station at Creedmoor were probably started by residents there, but the LIRR did have a freight siding that ran there for quite some time.
but the LIRR did have a freight siding that ran there for quite some time.
Creedmore also had passenger service for a while.
188 Street and Hillside?
No, I think that's where the tunnel ends up against bumper blocks. There's no station there.
The question was the name of the station east of 179 St.
Anybody have any details about this alleged station on Hillside Avenue?
I don't think there are any real details. I think it's safe to say that the line was supposed to go down Hillside after 179 St. One person says there might be a station or terminal in East Williston. The person who began this thread said he heard of 2 places where station shells were built. I myself think the next station east of 179 St is 188 St. If anything is actually there, I don't know. I don't think so. Considering there is a proposed stop at 76 St, East of Euclid Ave, it's possible. It's possible but doubtful. Probably someone will read this and start saying I said there is a proposed stop at 188 St.
Since the Queens Boulevard Line structure ends at 184th Place, it's unlikely that anything's beyond that location...however, anything's possible...
David
I suppose whether there are any other shells of stations or tunnel segments that it would remain an MTA secret
What strikes me is that such a stretch of tunnel may have been actually built, without knowing for sure that there be enough money to complete the project.
There are some "Ghost Stations" on the IND, bit I don't know where all of them are.
#3 West End Jeff
I guess some people really do read the historical docuemnts :)
What I said was, "Besides the provisions for the 1929 system, there seem to be rumours of other IND ghost stations: ..." and then I listed the ghost stations you mentioned. They're rumours or legends ... without proof. Unless you have a jackhammer permit, they'll continue to be interesting stories for many years to come.
--Mark
Mark, is there a map available showing the Indepedent lines that were originally proposed ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Yup.
I believe there is a station under Steinway street. I've heard it from a post on this site.
You might be refering to a query I made here several months ago.
I had heard at Steinway St, if you walk a few feet into the tunnel on the catwalk, there is a door. If you looked thru the door, you'd look down to another level. I have no idea where this tunnel would have gone or where it came from. The person who told me about it, I spoke to him once abd never saw him again. I've never seen anything along the line to suggest another tunnel.
I live right off of 73rd Avenue in the 200's in Bayside. Having seen a recent excavation on 73rd Avenue itself to replace either a sewer or water main (I forget which), I can tell you it's not likely there's a subway tunnel under there. It would be nice, maybe, but it is little more than a rumor. Where are you getting this info, anyway?
As everyone knows, hitting a red signal is considered a serious offense. For those of you T/O's out there, what is the main cause for hitting a red in your opinion?
Misjudging a timer. There are also some that leap out at you from around bends, being only about 100 feet or so ahead of the yellow. Then, there's the "hooligans" on the ceilings of some stations, which can be easy to miss, and many other signals with stuff in front of them. Any signal can pose this threat when there's a train right in front of you, especially if you're not accustomed to expecting it red. I was also warned about flaggers who stand or have their flags placed right in front of signals.
I wonder if a link can be found between hitting signals, and working the AM shift. I have heard that people who work AM's, especially early AM's, are less alert, and therefore this is where you find most of your signal overruns.
As everyone knows, hitting a red signal is considered a serious offense.
There are two types of red signal, automatic and home. Running the latter is about as serious an offence as you can get. It warrents either suspension or termination. Railroaders refer to a Stop and Stay aspect as "Fire Your Ass Red".
I don't think it's so much that a home signal is a more serious offense, than it is that you can't get out of it without someone (at least the tower) knowing about it. That is what makes homeballs so dreaded.
The most restrictive aspect an automatic can show is "Stop and Proceed" and the worse that can happen is that you rear end another train. With a home signal you can slide into the path of a conflicting movement for a broadside or head on collision. Not to mention that the other movement may be traveling at full speed.
On the subways, red means stop and stay. ALWAYS. No exceptions unless permitted to key by. I don't think they grant that automatically anymore without looking at the model board and some paperwork ...
The fact that you can key by independant of dispatcher action implies a stop and proceed. A GO has simply superceeded this.
T/O's can key by certain red automatics that are on the yard lead. But I have heard of certain cases where red automatics on a track leading to a yard lead are also keyed.
If you key by without permission, that ball becomes FYAR ... :)
Stop and stay means stop and STAY ... 30 years ago, procedure was stop at the signal, count, then pass the railjoint at extremely reduced speed and expect to hit something. That old procedure has long been gone. You don't MOVE unless command tells you to these days.
And any stop signal in LIRR is definately stop and stay, going through one is probably grounds for dismissal.
Well ... I can only speak for the NYCTA, only place I ever operated LEGALLY ... now in NORAC country, Mike's dead on ... but rapid transit (not including LIRR) being non-FRA pretty much wing it compared to FRA type stuff ... blocks are shorter, line of sight shorter, rules a whole lot tighter given limitations in the sginalling system which allow for much tighter headways. I can't see a "railroad" running at 60 second intervals ... that's WHY the subways have to be tighter. And a red means YOU STOP, GIRL ... heh.
Then why did they design the system w/ key-by in the first place? Trainst was designed for permissive operation, just with stricter control due to the inherent unprofessionalism of morotmen as compared to engineers. The TA's move is just one in a long line of moves to in their campaign for flassid transit.
I was walking the tracks on the L line last night, and saw 3 snow blocks lying next to the same Signal. I don't think any of them called the Command Center to say they hit the signal. I am not going to say were I was working, so no one can get in trouble.
Robert
Snow block? Can you explain this in layperson's terms?
A snow block is a piece of pine stock taped to the trip cock so that in snow the tripcock is rigidly held in place so that the train will not be tripped for the wrong reason.
Snow blocks and tripcocks are not normally used on class I roads. It would seem that your not knowing what a snowblock is should point out something that you do not understand. That is, there is not 100% operational equivalency between the New York Subway System and AMTRAK or other class I roads. Stop trying to put the NYCT into the same box as AMTRAK as far as operation, signaling or workrules.
Excuse me for trying to hold the NYCS to a higher standard.
I wouldn't call Amtrak a 'higher standard', IMHO, their operations are very sloppy, more so that the commuter lines or the NYCTA.
When was the last time you rode the NYCS? The whole system is about ready to fall appart. It is a disgrace to mass transit everywhere. See my post about yesterday's ride on the N.
>>>The whole system is about ready to fall appart. It is a disgrace to mass transit everywhere.<<<
As much as I dislike the NYCTA I find this statement to be totally without basis. Check yourself.
PEACE,
ANDEE
Andee, as much as I find Mike's information based of incorrect data, incorrect assumptions and inapproriate comparisons, I find his statement (that you refe to) completely within character.
Unfortunately, you are correct.
Peace,
ANDEE
Stop calling the subways NYCS. No one calls it that.
>>> Stop calling the subways NYCS. No one calls it that <<<
You do not understand. Mike's world revolves around him. If he wants to call it NYCS it does not matter what the correct abbreviation is. After all we have all seen his unique abbreviation for the Long Island Railroad.
Tom
That's OK ... Mike won't be happy until SD-40's replace the 142's on the Lex. :)
Very funny. We all know that SD-40's are too big for the Lex. GP-30's would be much more appropiate.
Heh. Just checking to see if this thing's on. :)
That would push the asthma and death rate to a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH higher rate. :-\ lol I know you are joking.
"Excuse me for trying to hold the NYCS to a higher standard."
Mike, with all due respect, what makes you think that NYCT is at a lower standard or that you are even slightly qualified to hold it to a higher standard? You've already shown that there are things you do not understand about the system. When you are an expert of mass transit systems, when you have some academic credentials and/or you have some professional experience, then perhaps you'll be qualified.
A snow block is a piece of pine stock taped to the trip cock so that in snow the tripcock is rigidly held in place so that the train will not be tripped for the wrong reason.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, it snows so much in NY, especially underground, that the need for slow blocks was obvious.
I was told they're there to back up the TA when someone is suspected of hitting a red. The way it was explained to me, if you think you're going to hit a red signal, do the following:
Take a quick emergency brake, and when/if you pass the stop arm, you probably won't have "strike mark", but will "lose your wood". On the R142's, just let go of the master control(don't apply emergency brakes because it will resister on computer), and say your hand slipped.
Don't give out this advise to operating crews. The passenger cars from R-110 up record the actual trip cock and car in consist that put the train into emergency. They demoted some TSSs over the R142 BIES. Assume big brother is watching and slow the trains down.
As a matter of fact, I've seen the laptop graphing of R142 'traction energy/brake pipe/straight air/motor tach' and a whole lot more on a BIE. Since the motors can't be banked with a paddle like Redbirds, static tests with the Big Bug and the laptop are finally starting. TA is VERY interested in the performance of ALL new train technology and anything that happens because of hardware/software failure is thrown up to the vendor....woe to the crew for anything else. CI Peter
Ok. You just said that the newer trains, "tech" trains record which trip cock on the consist put the train into emergency. My question is this: If the T/O knows he is going to hit a red automatic, and let's go of the master controller, it would be recorded that the train went into emergency due to the "deadman's feature". The stop arm would still hit the trip cock. But would that be recorded as well?
If the T/O knows he is going to hit a red automatic, and lets go of the master controller, it would be recorded that the train went into emergency due to the "deadman's feature".
Would the deadman activate in that short an amount of time? I know that on mainline railroads there is a delay; don't know about NYCT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All all of the trains I have seen the Deadman seems to hook into the BIE system. Many T/O's just release the deadman was their train pulls into a stub terminal. Coudln't do that if there was a delay.
The deadman hooks into the BIE system and the T/O doesn't dump at every station...the stop may be only fifteen seconds and an old trainset with a bad compressor may take far longer to charge up. The T/O might park the trainset in full service brake and release the throttle if the stop was held up. I don't know the RTO rules. CI Peter
"an old trainset with a bad compressor may take far longer to charge up" -- Doesn't NYCT perform orifice tests on the compressors?
Not at the maintenance shop level. If it builds up to the 135-150 PSI and cuts off, if no air leaks are detected or unusual noises are heard - it's presumed to be good.
I'm checking out my orifice right now before i move a few tons of snow. Sms are 29 days apart...T/Os call in a trainset for major problems. Despite all, brake pipe and straight air run trainline so bad compressors are overcome and the RTO run remains safe. We find and repair compressor problems under supervision...a Redbird married pair doesn't usually move BUT a R142 trainset has three compressors and one bad one could move under RTO. CI Peter
"Would the deadman activate in that short an amount of time? I know that on mainline railroads there is a delay; don't know about NYCT"
Older RR deadmans activated when released.
Modern locomotives do not have that kind of a deadman.
They depend on the engineer touching, moving or adjusting a control every so many seconds (about 90). If he has not ajusted a control, or handled the controls in a certain way, then an alarm rings, asking him to acknowledge that he is still alive and in contol. If he failes to acknoledge the alerter, then the train shuts down.
Or at least this is mu nderstanding, and I am sticking to this story.
Elias
For some reason, the TOD, computer display wipes out its memory when the T/O "agrees" with the bie. In short, before attempting a recharge, the T/O must place the handle into emergency to allow the emergency magnet valves to reset. The display wipes out all recollections of the source of the BIE. However the event recorder does not wipe out this source. I was talking to a TSS who responded to a 12-9 on the 6 line a while ago. Sure enough, the passenger who fell between cars and tripped the train registered the BIE to the event recorder through the trip cock. I wouldn't trust anything TA tells us, we need to be more vigilant in our operation.
Hmmmm. I wonder if it's the 12-9 where the train went BIE, the T/O recharged the train, moved about a foot, went BIE again, and the body found later on. If so, I heard that T/O may be facing criminal charges for moving the train before determining the cause of the BIE.
"I was told they're there to back up the TA when someone is suspected of hitting a red. "
And I told you what the real reason is. Being cynical doesn't make you correct. If a snow block is found missing, who's to say when or where it was lost? The only one who checks the train is the operator who pulls it out of the yard. If the block is found missing 19 hours later - good luck in making a case. You really have a poor source of information.
The strike marks are stronger evidence but a loose block is the first thing they look at as a sign, really it should not prove guilt, only innocence. And yes I know because I was accused of hitting a signal and a missing snow wedge, loose tape was considered enough to nail me. As it turns out I had made a reverse move after the alleged hit so they were looking at my 8th car not my first. This also brings up a question I was going to ask you privately, can I get a copy of a cars maintenance record to prove it got shopped/repaired for a wedge or do they wait until the periodic exam to do all that stuff in one shot. I was nervous they would just slip this in my record (they had to charge a late train) and this would haunt me later.
In school car we are advised to look underneath before we take a train even out of the terminal, some do it religiously. Just like you always walk the ground in the yard if only to make sure the last guy did not derail it and hope you are lazy and you buy it. And yes that stuff does happen.
>>>>>>>>In school car we are advised to look underneath before we take a train even out of the terminal, some do it religiously
I ALWAYS check my trip cock before leaving a terminal. I cannot stress this enough to any T/O. Don't buy someone else's mistake. Cover yourself at all times!
Are you kidding, I'd put a kevlar condom on the cock if I thought I could get away with it.
Really it is hard (excuse me )to check all the time especially when your relay is late or you do the relay.
Every scheduled maintainance includes all undercar men to service the tripcock valves: strip the old snowblocks, clean and lubricate the tripcock, replace the snowblock with a new one and secure it with four to five turns of friction tape and paint it all (including the bottom) with glossy white paint. Sometimes, the snowblock doesn't fit in the cavity because of layers of old paint that wan not removed in cleaning! Some guys will not check for proper fit....some guys don't secure the tape ends....some guys don't even bother to clean it all up. If I'm in a hurry....my trips are still so clean that the exixting white paint is perfectly white already.....I have TA white spray paint to touch it up with. I would never leave the trip with any marks... it's up to you the T/O to triple check your trainset. CI Peter
You say I have a bad source of information regarding the real purpose of the "snow blocks".
______________________________________________________________________
BULLETIN
Bulletin No: 106-00 September 1, 2000
To: All Concerned (Particularly Train Operators)
Subject: Wedges on Car-Borne Tripping Devices
The Division of Car Equipment now installs wooden wedges on all car-borne tripping devices year round. In addition to minimizing the danger of tripping trains in the snow, the wedges, if broken or missing, WILL SERVE AS PROOF THAT A TRAIN HAS STRUCK AN OBJECT EN ROUTE, i.e. DEBRIS, SIGNAL, ETC.
______________________________________________________________________
Notice Dude, in the TA's own words, they are called "wedges", not "snow blocks" as some people call them. Still think I have a bad source of information?
For your information, the SNOW BLOCK was a device used by the division of car equipment for the reason I have stated. Until several years ago, the snow blocks were only used between October and April. It's a relatively recent change that has snow blocks installed year round. Now, I'm not going to be a TWU Lawyer but despite what the bulletin says, the missing snow block is not evidence that a specific train operator hit a signal or debris or anything else. It only indicates that in the time period from the time the train left the yard until the missing snow block was found, the snow block fell off for some reason.
The only definitive proof that the train operator hit a red signal is if the area is checked at the time of the BIE and the snow block is found missing from the tripcock and found in the vicinity of the stop arm. Anything else is pure speculation. How would that bulletin explain a missing snow block after sustained operation in inclement weather, where the tape simply fails to hold?
What do you want me to say? I am just going by the TA's own bulletins. They say it's a wedge, not a snow block. They say it can be used as proof against T/O's that a signal was hit.
Why else would it be used year round?
To stop unnecessary BIEs riding over track garbage and pathalogical waste. The block resists the tripcocks arm attempt to swing over something. The trip is essentially there only to operate upon a strike against a signal T-bar. It's a lucky soul who trips saving one arm and two legs. CI Peter
Go to the supply counter and ask for four snowblocks and you'll get four blocks of wood. Ask for four wedges and you'll get one 'wedgie thankyouverrymuch.' It's symantics. CI Peter
Yes, and the operative words in that RTO Bulletin are "YEAR-ROUND".
Amen...done each and every SM. I do it. CI Peter
RTO may use DCE information for their own purposes. They put out bulletins based on this information that may not be 100% operationally correct.
Having called that to your attention, I was only responding to the first line of your post #314074. I did not refer to the second segment. Did the same source of information (that gave you the RTO Bulletin) provide you with the mis-information about preventing strike markes by taking an emergency brake application, as stated in the latter part of that post?
No. The person who told me about taking an emergency brake was a different source than the bulletin source. In fact, the guy who told me about taking the emergency brake probably does not even read his bulletins.
Just understand that many RTO bulletins are written, based on Car Equipment Engineering Alerts and the information is sometimes perverted for RTOs own purposes.
I get the distinct impression that you have a bias against RTO.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace,
ANDEE
Incorrect! RTO is part of the Department of Subways. So is the Division of Car Equipment. Both have essentially the same mission. WE also rely on mutual cooperation to achieve our individual goals. Unfortunately RTO & DCE sometimes view technical information in different lights. That was the only point I was trying to make.
I would agree. In one of your earlier posts, you stated that missing snow blocks aren't used as evidence of a signal overrun. That may be true for DCE, but in RTO, the first thing that RTO Control asks the RCI inspecting the train is whether the snow block is attached or not. It is indeed used as proof in RTO. That is why I tell every T/O to inspect their trip cock before they do anything.
WE ARE BROTHERS!!!!!! We look out for the stupid at our expense. CI Peter
At tripartite arbitration, that level of evidence would likely not stand up to scrutiny. Unless the train is inspected at the place of the incident, it could only be an assumption that the snow block was missing due to any particular incident.
That's not to say that DCE won't try to make the association. Signal dept paints the stop arms yellow and DCE paints the tripcocks white so we can determine what struck what where and when. The missing block, unless it's found at the incident location, is really only a poor indicator.
And that is why we clean the tripcock, replace the snowblock and repaint it. CI Peter
So you advise everyone to check their cocks for wood at each terminal?
Sorry I can't follow this thread too many people are on killfile so all I have left are these sophmoric attempts at humor.
Remember I went to PC school car, we did not get to tell these jokes for 5 months.
We forgive you ... at least you weren't teasing anyone over their angle cock ... ooch.
I will notify my new Dep Sup and foreman that cocks must be checked for wood! The English may not work. CI Peter
"That may be true for DCE, but in RTO, the first thing that RTO Control asks the RCI inspecting the train is whether the snow block is attached or not. It is indeed used as proof in RTO."
So the presence of a snowblock proves that he was not tripped, while the absence of the block, legally, proves nothing.
Elias
The absense of a snow block proves nothing other than the snow block is missing. A yellow strike mark on the tripcock would be a more positive indication that the train was tripped by a signal. White paint on the stop arm (at the same time) would be pretty conclusive.
>>>>>>>>Take a quick emergency brake, and when/if you pass the stop arm, you probably won't have "strike mark", but will "lose your wood".
Not true.
If you pass a red signal and the associated stop arm, 98% of the time you will have a strike mark and a missing snow block regardless if you placed the train in emergency or not. When the trip cock hits the stop arm, the snow block is broken off by the force of hitting the stop arm. Also, a strike mark is left on both the stop arm and the trip cock. Usually, there will be a black mark on the stop arm caused by chipping the yellow paint off, and the yellow paint would then be on the train's trip cock. Sometimes instead of yellow paint, the trip cock will have a black mark when the white paint on the trip cock breaks off from the force of the collision with the stop arm. Either one can provide proof of a signal overrun.
Thanks for setting me straight on that. I guess I got the wrong information. I was under the impression that if there was brake pipe air, the car-borne tripping devise would just slide by the stop arm, and not show a strike mark because there was no resistence.
You will have a strike mark but it will be smaller.
Just a quick note: I tried whacking a trip during inspection with my hand without removing the snow block. Hand hurt. CI Peter
You could have seriously hurt yourself. Next time, use your head :-)
Did it just once, apprehensively, AND luckily it was NOT secured properly!!! WON'T do it again, even with my foot. I promise. CI Peter.
use your head, but wear a hard hat !
Blue 'OnTheJuice' hardhat and vest too!!
You've got to find an alternative spot to try your karate moves Peter.
You were whacking your cock while you had wood and you hurt your hand.
Damn.
Ahhh snowblocks...the work of a small genius. On my Redboid today was scrawled in chalk 'Paint Snowblock.' It was written by a Deputy Superintendent who gets off his butt to check ALL the work covered by his maintainance supervisors and car inspectors. I was called into his office today to explain how I carbody test crew switches on the Redbirds...I was a little afraid...but my tests were correct and was told to open up the switch plate upon every inspection to look for loose flimsy springs. Unca Steve knows his business and knows how to make car inspectors out of men. Unca Steve knows my new top boss...and my new top boss never once relented any sense of anger or disrespect towards him despite..... New York subways are a unique form of heavy rail respected throughout the world and I have the priviledge working with the best. CI Peter
>>>Can you explain this in layperson's terms?<<<
OMIGOD! Is JM admitting he is a layperson? Film at 11. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The system was designed like that so you can pass the signal if it is defective or it is necessary for emergency reasons.
>>>...inherent unprofessionalism of morotmen<<
What IS it with your constant bashing of NYCTA T/Os?
Peace,
Andee
It's a Jerky Mike thing. He's still in college and knows EVERYTHING!!!
Train Dude has tried reason. Mike still says what Mike says is the truth, regardless of facts.
TrainDude should give him ten days on the street. CI Peter
But, since he knows EVERYTHING!!!, he will pay no attention to the Dude and do whatever he wants.
I wonder if he gives his college professors as much grief as he dishes out here.
If you take the time to read his posts, you will understand what Dude and I see in him.
I definately see his college isn't the problem. You need common sense developed in full before you leave high school. He perceives a railroad engineer's job at a higher level of competance on the individual basis than he gives credit to the motorman performing the same work. If I were to argue on behalf of a T/O that hits a red signal that he should have the charges thrown out because the control center report denoted the "block" missing instead of the "wedge" missing, I would be considered petty or naive and would lose credibility at hearings in the future.
Post 313385 Excerpt from Jersey Mike:
Then why did they design the system w/ key-by in the first place? Trainst was designed for permissive operation, just with stricter control due to the inherent
unprofessionalism of morotmen as compared to engineers. The TA's move is just one in a long line of moves to in their campaign for flassid transit.
BTW Mike, remember the Bergen County collision where the Engineer who was diabetes colorblind misjudged the home signal and ran head on killing several in the wreck? Positive train stopping wasn't a part of their setup until that happened. Restricting was the most restrictive operation you could get. If you were following restrictive speed rules, either in subways or the RR, you eliminated the possibility you were under cardiac arrest or asleep. Positive train stops are there in case of operator failure, not unprofessionalism.
Thankyou Engine Brake. After reading one particular post of 'how to avoid BIE notification' on the R142, I see your points so very clearly. There are a few T/Os always looking for a way out of doing something they knew was wrong...we all commit that sin sometimes in our lives...but the errors done by careless operation risk lives and equipment. Being new and wanting to keep my new work makes me ever more vigilant. BTW: checked out 207th today...saw the BIG crane barge...in preparation for THREE DAYS OF SCHOOL Mod 2. Ugh...antique digital electronics!!!!!!! CI Peter
I leave the yard at 3:47. Look me up if you are off by then.
Left early today after class....two more days of digital BS. My friend, you probably walked by me on the cafeteria stairs (I don't even know your name!) I had a wonderful time...walked fifteen blocks in the neighborhood, got to see the dollys and bugs. Of course there is the bungee jump in the back yard. The biggest adventure was PARKING.....all the way in the back against the third rail. All ice, was dark at 6:25 and had my vest and flashlight. It's Engine Brake Land, the 'consenting adult park of many amusements.' Just bring your six wheel drive and leave your transmission behind. CI Peter
Huh? The fact that you _can_ overcome the train stop without
dispatcher action somehow gives you permission to do it?
That line of thinking doesn't make any sense. The indication
of the signal is derived from the rule book, not from any
supplementary devices such as wayside stops or ASC. The TA
rulebook makes a single red automatic signal STOP AND STAY
If you check the rulebook R/R is still a different rule than R. R/R cannot be passed (the towerman has to give you a restricting R/R/Y), but the trip will not drive on a R/R. For an automatic R the rule is to stop, call command and then proceed. A home signal displays Stop and Stay, an automatic displays "Stop, Call and Proceed". "S,C&P" is less restrictive than "Stop".
So the precise definition and purpose of a homeball signal is what, compared to an automatic signal?
NYC Transit Rule 64(a), entitled AUTOMATIC SIGNAL:
A fixed signal at the entrance to a block to govern trains entering and using that block.
(b) BLOCK
A length of track of defined limits, the use of which is governed by an Interlocking Signal or Automatic Signal.
Rule 65(f), entitled INTERLOCKING SIGNAL:
A fixed signal of an interlocking.
(g) HOME SIGNAL
An Interlocking Signal at the entrance to a route or block to govern trains entering and using said route or block.
NYCTA doesn't follow standard railroad rules. A RED whether single or double means Stop and STAY ... period. You can't "proceed" unless given INSTRUCTIONS by the tower to key by ... it doesn't mean yelling "toodles" into the radio and then wrapping it. :)
I don't have the text of a current NYCT rulebook in front of me.
Neither do you, I suspect, otherwise you'd quote the rule.
The call-on aspect of a home signal is both a means of signaling
permission to proceed and a mechanism for releasing the stop.
Don't get the mechanics of getting the train through the signal
without going BIE confused with the indication or the procedure.
With an automatic signal, the most common arrangement is one
that allows an automatic key-by, i.e. you enter the track circuit
in advance and cause the arm to drive and retain. There are also
circle-K signals, which require you to operate a trip releasing
lever or key, NO KEY BY signals in which you have to bridge
the joint and then go out and step on the arm, and WD signals,
which are not classified as interlocking signals, yet once you've
tripped on one you'll need the tower to reset it.
The indication given by a single red is STOP AND STAY.
That is the same indication given by a double red. The
rule book provides a procedure for passing a STOP AND STAY
signal. After a period of time (I think 2 minutes), if the
signal has not cleared and the motorman does not know of
any reason why it shouldn't, control center is to be contacted
for instructions. If control or a tower doesn't answer the
radio, there are further rules about going to a wayside phone,
etc. Once the determination is made by control or other
supervision with authority that the signal should be passed,
then we get to the mechanics of how to actually pass it.
"There are also circle-K signals, "
Requiring a stop at a nearby convenience store?
"NO KEY BY signals in which you have to bridge
the joint and then go out and step on the arm"
Is there a minimum weight for T/O's?
Heh. Shorter guys have to jump up and down a few times. :)
Is there a minimum weight for T/O's?
I think it is 70 pounds, so I guess you'll have to stick
with signal maintainer.
ba-DIM-bum-pissssh
"There are also circle-K signals, "
Requiring a stop at a nearby convenience store?
No, red means trefe :)
The call-on aspect of a home signal is both a means of signaling
permission to proceed and a mechanism for releasing the stop.
The presence call on light is an entirely new aspect, R/R/Y. A train can not pass a R/R as nothing short of tying the trip arm will allow the train to pass. A train can pass an automatic single red signal w/o having to tie the trip. Furthermore, control can allow a train to pass the single red signals in a normal course of operation. Having a train pass a R/R as an R/R would require special circumstances. My point is that passing a R/R homesignal is worse than passing a R automatic signal. I think we can agree on that.
IMHO the TA needs to get the stick out of its ass and allow permissive operation. If the ACELA can stop and proceed than an NYC Subway train can stop and proceed.
My point is that passing a R/R homesignal is worse than passing a R automatic
signal. I think we can agree on that.
Yes, it is worse, but mostly because the train operator is certain
to get into trouble over the former because tower intervention
will be required to get moving again.
Having a train pass a R/R as an R/R would require special
circumstances.
Actually the common reasons for giving permission to pass a stop
signal apply equally to homeballs and automatics alike. They
are both block-related. Either a track circuit failure or a
stalled train ahead which needs to be closed in on. Permission
is not generally given in the latter case for mere congestion.
If the reason for an undesired R/R signal is because of switch
condition or cross-locking, the tower's call-on button won't
do anything anyway.
IMHO the TA needs to get the stick out of its ass and allow permissive operation. If the ACELA
can stop and proceed than an NYC Subway train can stop and proceed.
First of all, your opinion is never humble!
I suppose one could have a long intellectual argument about
permissive operation and why it was done away with 30 odd years
ago on the NYCT system (and more recently on PATH). It basically
comes down to where do you locate the decision making process
for a decision which is safety-critical and doesn't come up too
often (maybe a dozen authorized key bys in the entire system per
day, tops). Do you distribute it or centralize it? In years past,
the distributed approach was the only one possible, because the
train crews did not have continuous communications capability.
Now communications are cheaper and more reliable. So, what is
the benefit of placing that decision making intelligence into
the field, into the minds of each train operator, and how does
that weigh against the risk that someone will make the wrong
decision (don't forget, the train operator has less information
about conditions ahead than the tower or command center), and
the added expense of having to train and maintain a more highly
qualified train operator. Although I can wax nostalgic about
the good old days when trains were trains and men were men and
all that BS, the primary mission of a public transit agency is
not to preserve heritage but to move people as quickly, safely and
cheaply as possible. The primary benefit to giving train operators
authority to key by automatics is that in some rare situations
it will reduce customer delay. Unlike the big railroads where
the distance between that red signal and the train ahead could be
miles, you're not talking about much of a savings in the transit
world.
Do you distribute it or centralize it? In years past,
the distributed approach was the only one possible, because the
train crews did not have continuous communications capability.
Now communications are cheaper and more reliable.
The limiting factor is the free time of the dispatcher(s). How many key by calls can a dispatcher handle AND maintain his other, critical functions (route alignment).
The primary benefit to giving train operators
authority to key by automatics is that in some rare situations
it will reduce customer delay.
Permissive operation can stand to increase the overal tph of any given line although this is best seen in conjuction w/ cab signals.
I am surprised that PATH has taken such an action. PATH uses federally certified Engineers who can be trusted to work permissivly. It is also interesting that the LIRR has done the exact opposite by removing all wayside block signals from its lines. The engineers won't even get a stop and proceed any more. Between interlockings the worst they get is a restricting (or ASC equivalent) cab signal and they are completely on ther own to approach the block limit prepared to stop and then to approach the obstruction prepared to stop.
The limiting factor is the free time of the dispatcher(s). How many key by calls can a dispatcher
handle AND maintain his other, critical functions (route alignment).
Under NYCT terminology, the Dispatcher does not line up routes.
That is the job of the tower operator. The number of requests
to key by that generally come in to the control center per day
is fairly low.
Permissive operation can stand to increase the overal tph of any given line...
In the case of the NYCT system, making automatic signals permissive
would not materially affect tph. At most stations, timer
signals allow a following train to close in. Being allowed to key
by those last two reds would be a meaningless gain of only a
few car lengths.
Remember, this is not a railroad running in the open country.
This is a bunch of very crowded trains, which do not have the
same crashworthiness as required by FRA, operating in tight
dark tunnels with sight distances sometimes measured in car
lengths. PATH is probably even worse than the IRT in terms
of curve radius and visibility.
Under NYCT terminology, the Dispatcher does not line up routes.
That is the job of the tower operator. The number of requests
to key by that generally come in to the control center per day
is fairly low.
I thought that the NYCS was closing its towers and converting to CTC operation.
Check your civil service titles, just as Jeff said, a Dispatcher does not control movements for passing red signals.
I once was on a train when they lost signal (AC) power to most of the signals in the DeKalb area (From Court St to 7th Ave).
The biggest problem was crews getting AIR TIME to call in the key by. After 15 minutes Control was just going throught he motions and allowing keybys but EVERY SIGNAL had to be called in by EVERY train even though EVERYone knew the signals were down hard. We sat for 5 minutes once when the T/O couldn't get on the air. Each read back from Control included the train's call letters and the singal number it could pass.
So a red signal is a stop and stay unless some other permision is given to pass and during this incident you could count the signals as we stopped at each and waited (even the ones on the middle of the platform).
"I thought that the NYCS was closing its towers and converting to CTC operation."
Tower operators operate the towers under the supervision of a train dispatcher or an assist train dispatcher.
"I thought that the NYCS was closing its towers and converting to CTC operation."
Tower operators operate the towers under the supervision of a train dispatcher or an assist train dispatcher. Any permission to pass a red signal, either by keying by or via a call on, is issued by a member of supervision.
Red on yard leads are permissable to key by. On main line track, permission to key by must be given by local supervision under rule 37N (unless the number has changed in the new rule book)
Heh. Yeah, the rulebook in effect 30 years ago, though written on papyrus, had pretty much the same rule. You HAD to call command and ask pretty please before you could close the joint anywhere except for call-ons in the yard ... (fat chance when the radio was of course in a dead spot, then you'd find every other blue light handset might work) wouldn't have a hope in hell of remembering the rule number - like everything else back in those days, had to turn in the rule book also in exchange for my final check. :)
That's a RR distinction. Under NYCT rules, all red signals are
absolute (on main track at least). Running an automatic is
in theory just as serious as running a homeball, but one is
less likely to get caught doing the former.
All trains have at least two red signals behind them. You can't really "run" a signal due to the trip arm. If you try to run an automatic signal you will stop before hitting the obstruction. I have seen cases where a train has been able to approach a red home signal w/ that one signal the only protection to switch etc so running a home has greater ramifacations.
There is always an approach signal to the rear of a homeball
that is protecting a switch or other conflicting movement.
That signal usually clears on time. True, once you've crept
up to the homeball, a lot more damage can be done if you suddenly
decide to wrap it up and run through it as opposed to running
an automatic signal. As for your statement that
"If you try to run an automatic signal you will stop before
hitting the obstruction. ", tell that to the dozens of motormen
who have died over the years (last time was 1995) in rear-end
collisions.
tell that to the dozens of motormen
who have died over the years (last time was 1995) in rear-end
collisions.
That was due to cheap brake shoes that increased the braking distance.
True, and instead of going with the noisier but stronger and standarized brakes, the TA started slowing all the trains down with governers and timers, making the concept of rapid tranist truly obsolete in this city.
That was due to cheap brake shoes that increased the braking distance
I'm not sure what you mean by cheap. If you are implying that
the shoes were defective because they were purchased based on
low bid or something like that, you're completely off the mark.
If cheap is some slang way of expressing your preference for
cast iron instead of composition shoes, then you've got part of
the story. The rest of the story involves changes to the brake
control pneumatics, increased top end speed of the GOH cars,
and shortened signal blocks. In summary, a systems engineering
problem.
I have heard what Mr. CCNY said, that the TA chose to stay w/ lower cost "soft" shoes. Cost measured not only per brake shoe but also wheel wear and some other related items. If you listen to anyone on this board they will all say that trains went faster back in the day so it probably wasn't a top speed issue. Finally, there is no reason for the TA to shorten signal blocks. A block costs money. Moving a block costs a LOT of money. Diving a block in two costs slightly less, but would lead to insanely short block lenghts. Was there really a system wide block shortening programme or were there just a few isolated problem spots. Did the TA ever consider going to 4 block signaling in places w/ short blocks?
The decision to use composition shoes was made by many other
railways. There is nothing wrong with them per se, however
car engineering failed to take into account the different
stopping profiles. That modern trains, lighter and equipped
with (after GOH) 4 motors of 115 hp, could go faster than
the pre-war equipment for which the signal block lengths
were originally designed, was a key factor cited in the 1995
NTSB report.
Signal blocks were shortened during some re-signaling programs
to improve tph. There are many other places in the system where
the block lengths were designed under the assumption that the
motorman would maintain a certain posted speed in the territory.
And amazingly, we could maintain speed without benefit of a lying speedo to glance at ... didn't seem such an impossible demand - maintain posted speed until you saw an R marker or a new limit. Coast was a GOOD thing ... highly encouraged. Until the S' started backing up on you and you had to grab a mini to continue coasting ...
"when trains were trains" ... heh. Loved that.
I may have asked this before, but on a northbound D train of oldtimers along CPW, how long did you keep it under power before coasting, and when did you typically reapply power? I remember hearing the bull and pinion gears wailing away at 81st St., so I assume the train was still under power at that point.
Yes, at 81st you were typically still under power after the hill climb and you wanted to get it up to speed so you could bite your sammich in coast ... normally if you had motors though, you were there once the tenth car cleared 72nd, so my guess is that train had a few dead motors. I had a few dogs here and there that needed it in parallel for most of the trip up.
You definitely went to coast south of 103rd though unless you had a death wish. :)
I do recall that on that very first D train I ever took up CPW, it coasted up to around that uphill stretch before 110th St., then the bull and pinion gears sang out as the motorman applied power.
The R-10s were at full speed at the point you described. Once they were past that storage track before 81st St., they were off to the races. Thunder and blazes all the way.
CPW was a great place to grab your sammich and suck down a soda before you had to work for a living again. :)
It still is with a 44.
I was officially critiqued out of trying to push the timers southbound. Take no brake SB from 125-59. Really
I was saving a half a minute AT BEST.
Heh. Wonder if we should be giving away all our secrets ... still, glad to hear there's still a place to cop a munch when you get shortsheeted outta lunch. And yeah, I remember the parade south of 81st ... amazingly, though they were out there, I never did get a 44. Occasionally a 32 but since I was on dog patrol, it was the 9'ers. At Stillwell, they'd BEAT ya if you even LOOKED at a 44 back then. :)
But you loved those oldtimers, so it was a moot point, right? Now, if you put the reverser in neutral, did you still have to hold the controller down to defeat the deadman's feature? Or was it a case of "Look, Ma, no hands!"?
Centering the reverser allowed you to trade "two-fisted operation" for "two-fisted sammich munching" ... centered, you could let go. VERY useful for a sammich and a soda. :)
That's why if you were caught, it was the street ... fortunately, so MANY bulbs were gone on the signs, the motor instructors had to really look carefully and usually assumed you had no lights. Ah, the BENEFITS of deferred maintenance. Heh.
Or a Drake's Devil Dog or Ring Ding, right?:-)
That was the other question I had. Chances are there were very few, if any, backlit side destination signs on any R-1/9s by the time you were operating them. I don't think I ever saw another backlit sign on the oldtimers after 1968 or thereabouts. Since the light bulbs were wired in series, if one burned out, the other one would go out, too. I'm sure that towards the end, no one bothered to check or replace light bulbs. The R-7/9s which wound up on the Eastern Division had their light bulbs removed from the sign boxes. Eddie S. told me the whole story at Shoreline in 1980. Another take to this story: the original R-1/9 side destination roller curtains had round holes in the canvas at one end of the roll to allow access to the light bulbs. The newer curtains installed on those cars on the Eastern Division didn't have the round holes. I have examples of both and can vouch for that.
I will say this much: the image of a backlit "Coney Island" sign on a prewar D train is still very fresh in my mind, even after almost 35 years. It's no accident that I usually set my sign box for a D or F train, so I can bring up "Coney Island". Right now, the box is signed up for an F.
Devil Dogs and Ring Dings were "breakfast" or "late trip consolation feed" ... on the northbound second trip, that was my lunch and it was usually a meatball sub or a veal parm that I'd stash on the floor under the seat to keep it warm. CLEARLY a "two fisted lunch" ... I had been admonished by a few motor instructors about the lights being out here and there, but it was pretty normal ops to center the key for holding lights and let go anyway, so it wasn't an excuse for disciplinaries back THEN anyway ...
But yeah, there weren't a whole lot of lights on the sides. The TOP lights ALSO went out though and they were usually pretty good about screwing a couple of bulbs in up on the bulkhead, allowing the geese to see the oncoming white blank train going to wherever the hell I felt like. :)
And YES, there were SOME D trains that had BRIGHTON BEACH on the end signs ... not many, but they always found their way to the lead and tail even if the cars were cut out.
I never saw a Brighton Beach sign on an R-1/9 on the IND. OTOH I don't think I ever rode on a prewar D train on a weekday after Chrystie St. Came close, though - my first CPW express joyride was on November 24, 1967. The R-7/9s on the Eastern Division had truncated Brighton Beach signs on their new curtains.
Yeah ... there were a few of them on the bulkhead ... rule of the road was twirl until you found it, if you didn't then you ran out of curtain and left it there. :)
Selkirk, I think you could have left it wrapped around even past 81 Street. The way I remember it, wrap it around until you get to the middle of 86 Street and then you would be able to coast all the way to 125 Street without touching the brake. Then they replaced the signals on CPW and all that went out the window!
Usually you could coast a few cars after saluting 81st ... I was good for two sammiches for lunch and a cola ... needed the extra time. Heh. Centering the key was mighty handy. I don't think that works on any of the newer cars on the system. You did have to take a few bites of air though at about 103rd and had to be ready for it ...
Northbound on CPW before we removed field shunting, typically you could keep it in 3rd point through 72nd St. (roughly 2 minutes) and then coast the remainder of the way to 116th St. before braking for the timers into 125th St. We did this many times when doing testing to solve the Westinghouse hot grid problems.
I can tell ya where I rolled to, but after 30 years, I can't remember whether it was 103 or 110 where the downramp began along the station line - it's been that long that I forget. But yeah, it was a nice roll until the first yellow before that downhill ... I'd often "touch it up a bit" around 96th, but for a face-stuffing, that stretch couldn't be beat ... pity a train won't go into "cruise control" anymore. :)
Tell me more about the westies ... hope I wasn't doing an undercar meltdown with my own moves. Doubt the R9's got warm in centered-key operation. Heh.
The downgrade for the n/b express track begins at 103rd. You can look over and see both station levels from an express train. On top of that, there is no crash wall between the express tracks north of 103rd. You can see just how massive the I-beams are between the express tracks.
The n/b express track ramps up at 110th St. and is level with the other three tracks midway through the station. A unique arrangement, to say the least.
That's what I remembered ... Dude kinda threw me for a loop there wondering if it was 116th where the dip occurred ... you had to be slowing down for that ramp or they'd be picking you out of the steel. But up to there it was rollercoasterama ... enough time to finish your peekle too. :)
The dance of the northbound express makes little sense. It drops down at 103, and one would expect the local to swing over and drop down to its east. In fact, that's not what happens at all.
I surmise the problems RARELY happened with R9s. I think it was with dynamic brake problems. I recall slight pullbacks going back from everything from the R68s, in which TD mentions meltdowns to R10s. All cars I had these problems with were Westinghouse cars. Sometimes if I was lucky and it happened on the first car, I could read the damage on the ammeter. Going back to power would run up the controllers normal, but cutting the 3 and 5 didn't always work either. Back in the days, you rarely MCO'd anything, especially if your image in the gunsight was the mouth of a river tube. I still dig that story I read here about an R42WH that fed 600 to its headlights and Low-V wiring. Bill from Maspeth, was that yours on the stand?
Wow! That musta been a HELL of a lightshow! Sure hope Mister Extinguisher was the conductor on that run. :)
On the Westinghouse cars they used a device known as the J/BDC contactor. THe critical part was the BDC (Build Down Contactor). Normal coasting current is about 50 amps but could get much higher. The BDC was designed to come in at 140 amps and shunt the current. However the BDC, for several reasons, didn't always come in. Currents in some cases rose to 800 amps and higher, giving the pullback that engine brake described. The grids were designed to handle that current but for no more than 30 or 40 seconds. Coasting for 5 minutes on CPW caused the grids to melt (if the J/BDC failed) and damage undercar wiring in the process. One instance caused a car to be out of service for nearly 2 years. It was in searching for the cause of the hot grid incidents that I found that nearly the entire uptown run from 59th St. to 125th St was a slight downgrade on which we could coast at speed for up to 5 minutes.
COAST&TOAST You can be sure if it's Westinghouse 8`P
I *still* can't get over that ... maybe a BIG lever in the cab ...
Yep ... that "downgrade" was what made it cafeteria time on the mighty D for me ... and why you never had to pull air headed south, unlike Tremont to 145 ... but yeah, got spoiled with the R9's ... no grids in coast at ALL, thus nothing to fear. Interesting angle in the design of the cams there. I would have expected (silly me) that the LAST thing you'd want is dynamic shunt in coast but apparently I'm missing some "wisdom" here ...
So what you describe sounds like the nimrods of my day that thought it was alright to punch to switching and just LEAVE it there for a while, wondering where that blue smoke was coming from. :)
The WH CAM group had a problem in that the resting position
of the cam controller is coasting/spotting. The dynamic loop
is all set up except for one contactor (I'm a little rusty...
I think it is the BDC). If that contactor hangs up or welds
shut, the car runs around dragging a continuous dynamic brake,
which eventually toasts the grids. BCO/MCO won't help because
the contactor is mechanically shut. The only solution is to
cut some motor leads or pull the truck disconnect, if you can
get to it on the road. The other sleazy way around it is to MCO
the car, then go underneath to the reverser and throw it with the
magnet valve the other way. Then the car won't generate as long
as you keep moving the same direction. Oh, I suppose you could
cut the B1 grid resistor lead and open the loop that way, but
good luck ID'ing that in the field.
The problem is less likely to have happened with the older
Unit Switch designs (such as the R10s had) because multiple
contactors would have had to fail at the same time.
"I have seen cases where a train has been able to approach a red home signal w/ that one signal the only protection to switch etc"
Where?
Except for some IRT signalling now replaced, there is _always_ signal overlap.
Are you talking about the presence of controled approach signals held at red?
what I mean is that the switch is also protected by the approach(even if it later times out), so there's really two signals protecting the turnouts in the case you describe
The signals south of 72nd Street spur on Central Park Northbound track A2 can and has been run before during a switch run through years back. The distant signal and the home signal can be a little too close together for comfort even in newly signalled areas. In this case, the leaving signal at 72nd Street displayed yellow.
Umm three words "Willy B. Accident"
Four words, crappy ass brake shoes.
Once again, mike, you are speaking about something you have incorrect information about. The Williamsburg Bridge incident had nothing to do with the type of brake shoes.
Just out of curiosity (I get my info from here, so forgive me heh) wasn't the cause determined to be that the motorman was "asleep" combined with what was perceived to be insufficient signal distances along with wet track along with the braking profile being less than the system was designed for? That's the IMPRESSION I got from what I read here and from what little of the NTSB report I read before I went to sleep in the cab here reading it. :)
>>>>(I get my info from here, so forgive me heh)<<<
ROTFLMAO
Peace,
ANDEE
That plus the cars had a 15% increase in horsepower from the original design. However, the real failure was a systems failure. Signal and car were modified without the other department being notified or consulted. As to mike's contention, we are still using the same Cobra Brake Shoes on all cars except the R-142/143.
Well ... you know how in my own heart, nothing beat the old iron shoes of yesteryear. Noisy, yes, but they were "graberific" ... when I hear of motormen since those days having to pull a full service and make a sign of the cross as the 10 car marker is almost in their face, well ... that'd make me a bit skittish. Then again, there's dynamic braking and not electric assist like the old days so I s'pose it's a wash.
You raise an interesting point though - you're right. I remember 90 and 100 HP as being typical from back my way. Hell, I think 70 per motor was one of the old standards too. I forget after all these years. That would also explain why the shunt step is ... ummm ... not a good idea. Hadn't thought about that. But from all I hear from folks that actually DO operate and remember the old "grabwells" ... the newer shoes are "slower" than the originals I remember. I'd be lucky to not blow the platform with what's running today the way I ran.
YOu can go to www.ntsb.gov and get the NTSB report on the accident. Charts and graphs (8X10 glossy photos...as the song goes).
Does my yard have three kinds of shoes??? We have Redbird ones, R142 tread only ones and isn't the R62/R127 different too?? CI Peter
The Cobra shoe and the Tiger shoe are interchangable. Most people perfer the cobra shoe because because the composite material is more consistent.
Usually hitting a red signal is an accident caused by teenagers fooling around with the acception of someone not paying attention or under the influence. I feel T/O's do a damn good job mostly and it is our "Robert Rays" that insult their names.
Teenagers? I'll tell you, fatigue has to be the leading cause of signal overruns. I wonder if there is data which can be used to compare signal overruns on the AM shift vs. the PM shift. I would imagine more overruns and wrong routes occur in the AM, and are the result of fatigue.
If any of you T/O's out there can find out, it would sure be interesting to know for sure.
Even operating on the BVE, when I'm tired I overrun stations and blew a few signals. Bottom line is T/O's need their sleep, everybody does, and the TA has to recognize that.
Heh. Try stopping on the mark after a few beers. :)
I can do that. My mark is the second automatic out of Fordham.
Heh. I'm guessing you mean southbound D there. :)
On the subject of beer and overrunning station platforms, I got a crack at breaking in an off the streeter today. What is the whining and complaining for?
Heh. Kenny go splat on the glass just like *I* did! You killed Selkirk! :)
That's *cute* though ... and where oh where did the R10 get that R9 paint job? It actually looks ... cool ... then again I guess it's a good thing I'm off the railroad ... I would have had the compressor pumping up the main tank AND a KEG below ... heh.
Kyles Mom painted it. 207 Street had a knack for ruining prototypes. There were two R33s in 180 Street at the start of the clean car appearance program, I think 9044/5. They were painted s**t brown. They were also crafty at hand painting numbers over missing plates. Some of the R44s had the old style numbers, like on 135 and 2755, although I don't think 207 made 2755's plates.
Heh. Back in my day, we were allowed to have a limited amount of fun. I would have probably proudly done a few runs with Kenny in my face if South Park was on the air back then. They hadn't thought of whizzing in the bottle back then so about all you'd get from the TMO if you pulled something like that on the road was a bit of ball busting and "don't do that again" ... a small price to pay for a yuk. Of course, now you go downtown. TA has no sense of humor anymore. :)
The 110 R-10s which were fixed up in 1984-85 were painted dark green. I still like the racing stripe scheme the best. Too bad it was around for such a short period of time.
P. S. Maybe we could doctor that photo some more and put an A sign on the bulkhead with "Wash. Hts 207th St." on the destination side.
The main cause of passing a signal displaying stop isn't misjudging timers, it isn't stupidity, it isn't even rushing the train. It is simply innattention. Unless you were in the position of having the tower operator flashing a controlled signal against you, you didn't pay attention to the warning signs that were displayed to you. It is fair to say you earned your days in the street.
How often do the T/Os hit red signals?
#3 West End Jeff
Just once.
Are you aware of any other T/Os hitting red signals?
#3 West End Jeff
Are you aware of any other T/Os hitting red signals?
#3 West End Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell yeah.
yea u'll know. u will wonder why did the train stop and why is it making that funny noise. I was on a E train that hit D2A 1700. thats a automatic before sutphin blvd on that downhill.
Shit happens. The TA is too strict on it's employees. I don't know what the big deal is about.
passing a red signal has potentially deadly consequences. Enforcement of these rules has always been fairly strict.
You're right on the money there. Sometimes there is NO room for error.
#3 West End Jeff
>>> I don't know what the big deal is about. <<<
Would it be a big deal if a school bus operator drove past flashing red lights at a railroad grade crossing (even if he saw no train)?
Tom
Yes, that would be.
Would it be a big deal if a school bus operator drove past flashing red lights at a railroad grade crossing (even if he saw no train)?
Tom, I'm going to assume you're trying to make a point here and not suggesting that flashing red lights should be ignored by anyone, especially a school bus driver - am I right? I was on a school bus that was struck by a train back in the early '60s - in that case there were no flashing lights (it was a private road crossing - we were on a field trip) and the bus driver didn't see the train (quite possibly true, given the curve and the trees), although I can't believe he didn't hear it (as he claimed during the investigation). Fortunately the train was moving at about 5 mph and the impact was at the very front of the bus - but talk about a bunch of frightened kids and teachers...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's actually a criminal violation - no comparison.
>>> That's actually a criminal violation <<<
The reason going through a red signal on a subway is not a criminal violation is because the subway is a closed system, so discipline is left to the TA rather than the courts. If you could imagine a subway system in which anyone could operate their own subway car, running a red signal probably would be a criminal violation. Even as it is now, if running a red signal led to a fatal accident, the T/O could be charged with criminal negligence.
Tom
As far as the TA is concerned, hitting a signal is a collision. You collided with the stop arm!
I heard a song where the singer mentioned that he will go to Heaven on a boat. Well, that reminds me of my fantasy of how I will get to Heaven.
It will be on a BMT Standard six car train. Immediately after I die, I will find myself on a BMT Standard first car in the front with two angels. One angel will be the motorman and the other will be the conductor. The angels take male forms here.
The train is on the inbound express track on the Brighton Line traveling between Neck Rd and Ave. U. The motorman does not talk to me (as usual) but the conductor angel stands with me and does comfort me (in my first moments after death).
The six car train makes all the Brighton express stops but there is no one else in the train or at the stations.
When the train approaches Prospect Park station, instead of descending into the tunnel (under Flatbush Ave.), the whole train leaves the track and goes into the sky.
The conductor announces that the next stop will be Heaven. The distance from the Brighton tracks through the sky to the Heaven station is the longest distance between any two stations on the ride. It is about as long as Dekalb Ave. to Canal Street over the bridge, would be.
I enjoy watching Brooklyn and then Manhattan as we ascend in the sky. Finally we pull into a station on the local track (three tracks). The standard NYCTA sign says Heaven and the station looks like Bay 50th Street on the West End.
When the doors are opened by the conductor angel a woman welcomes me to Heaven and leads me away from the train and out of the station. I am now in Heaven, and that is how I want to get there, on my last subway ride.
LONG LIVE the BMT STANDARDS!
Did you see any of the Hi or Lo V's up there? :^)
No, but I am still looking for my cassette of the low V from Ed Davis. I know that one day I will find it. Then you can close your eyes and...
Save a seat for me when that train of BMT Standards stops at Newkirk Ave ! As long as we don't up the Sea Beach is fine with me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh MAN ... there you go again. :)
What would be terrible is riding to Heaven on a train of R68 Hippos, as even all of eternity wouldn't be long enough to get you there!
I'd love to get there on a train of R-10s myself. Signed up as an A, of course.
that was beautiful. did the station really say heaven if so what station
It looked like the Bay 50th Street station on the West End and there were three tracks.
This fantasy may have started as a dream and then I embellished, but I can not remember.
It looked like the Bay 50th Street station on the West End and there were three tracks.
This fantasy may have started as a dream and then I embellished, but I can not remember.
The NYCTA sign said in white letters with black backround...HEAVEN.
I'll second that!!!
This is a better way to remember them...
Foe a moment there I thought you were going to say St. Peter greeted you once you got there.:-)
Nah ... Saint Peter is still "in de hole" doing carbody inspections. :)
I'd prefer a trainset of R30's (original paint scheme) myself, or maybe a LIRR M-1 set, going at full speed....yeah....and my vision of Heaven station would be more like.........Jamaica Station, with black on white lettering (for the station name) :)
Stuart, RLine86Man and JamaicaStationMan
My train will be a Lo-V and I'll be at the railfan window. I'll have an angel crew,my two dogs (which I had) will be there and we will go together to explore the New New York Subway System which will include all previous removed lines plus the current lines and all removed stations and all current stations. Chambers On the J will be in full pristine glory as will all stations. The WTC will also grace the skyline in full glory. When we get there the Conductor will let me be the conductor.
What I am trying to say is install a walk way utiziling the old shuttle trackage and create a path connecting the two stations, what this will enable those east side riders to get on South Ferry Station and walk to Bowling Green, it allows a warm walkway in the Winter, a cool walkway in the summer, and something to protect the elements. Its 3 blocks long yes, but the path connecting the A,C,E, to the Times Square Station is just as long. I think it would be used heavily. We could connect all 3 downtown stops. The 1,9 South Ferry, the N,R at Whitehall, and the 4,5 at bowling Green. Then access to the rest of the city is feasable without making the transfer at Times Square or walking in the street.
Any Ideas or takers?
How will the (5) make turnaround trips to go north?????
I was thinking the same thing but that is my question.
If the PA transfer station is built, the transfer would be available just two stops north. I think that complex should include free subway to subway transfers.
There is talk about a 4 track station at South Ferry with both the 1's and 5's terminating there. I don't have the plans in my hand but this is what I have heard from several supervisory positions.
>>There is talk about a 4 track station at South Ferry with both the 1's and 5's terminating there. I don't have the plans in my hand but this is what I have heard from several supervisory positions<<
That sounds similar to what I heard from a good unnamed source. I was told of a three track South Ferry station built next to the current loop station. Leaving the old South Ferry station for misc. moves etc.
Another option I also heard was for a four track South Ferry station for the #1 and #7 Flushing Line !! That's if they wanted to extend it past Javits Center down the west side to South Ferry. That would be rediculous making the #7 way too long. I think we need a subway on the east side more than another one on the west side.
Oh well, those are the crazy ideas hatched stuffy offices.
Bill "Newkirk"
True, 2nd Av is a higher priority than 10th Av, but it'd sure be a good idea to extend the 7 down 10th Av. Perhaps any 4-track stub terminal should be built closer to the Broadway Line at Whitehall.
A ternminal station for the 5 at South Ferry seems like it would be a logistical pain in the butt.
To handle 10-car trains, the station would have to be at least 515-feet long, or roughly two standard NYC blocks. If you put the bumper block wall of the station where the current loop is, running the station two blocks north gives you just one block not only for an X crossover switch so that trains could access either track (assuming center platform configuration), but another X so that Lex and Seventh Ave. tracks would have access to each other (I suppose you could keep the loop for GOs and other switching, but no one has yet explained to me where the Lex platform could go if you did that).
After the two crossovers, the tracks to the Lex would then have to diverge, with one conecting into the Brooklyn-bound expess tracks, while the other hooks into the uptown tracks. I don't see how you can squeeze all of that into the area between South Ferry and the Bowling Green platform.
A 10-car non-loop island platform for the 1/9 trains would be possible, because there's tons of space between SF and Rector, and you could maintain the loop that way by tying the track on the east (north) side of the platform into it, but I don't see how you can do that and still have enough space to add a Lex terminal for the 5 train (let alone the problem of what to run there during rush hours when the 5 goes to Flatbush).
It does seem silly to have the 5 stop at Bowling Green and again at a new S Ferry station. Might as well keep the loops for non-rev purposes.
The walk from Bowling Green to S Ferry isn't particularly burdensome. How about a sheltered passageway between a new 1/9 station and Bowling Green? More benefit for the ferry riders than for free transfers between 4/5 and 1/9, but still useful.
I suppose you could build a passageway from the front end of the SF station to the rear end of the uptown IRT Bowling Green station and keep the walkway on the same level without having to worry about any tracks getting in the way. Getting one to the Brooklyn-bound platform would require dropping it down a level, since that platform is in-between the two tracks, and with the rebuilding of the SI Ferry terminal (and the tight access at SF on the 1/9 anyway), the MTA would probably want any passageway to have its own fare control zone near or inside the terminal.
I suppose you could build a passageway from the front end of the SF station to the rear end of the uptown IRT Bowling Green station and keep the walkway on the same level without having to worry about any tracks getting in the way.
A moving walkway could make the trip even easier. Such a contraption at 23rd-Ely seems to be working okay so far.
Just bring back the shuttle.
I think this rebuild of South Ferry is going to happen. It's not just speculation. I've heard that they are going to put in a crossover after Rector so that when the line reopens, Rector will be the temporary terminal. That will allow them to rebuild the South Ferry station into a normal station (keeping the loop). I haven't heard anything about the 5 terminating there also. It doesn't sound like a bad idea though, why wouldn't they extend the 5 one station to the new terminal. If anything it would provide a transfer between the two lines.
The problem with extending the 5 to South Ferry is the same one we discussed right after 9/11, when it was proposed to reroute the 5 along the outer loop so South Ferry passengers would stll have access to a train (transfer at Fulton for the 1 or the 2). With the 5 going to Brooklyn during AM and PM rush, that means you have no trains serving the station when trains are needed the most to serve the station. And there just isn't enough track capacity during rush hours between Bklyn Bridge and Bowling Green to extend the No. 6 train down there.
If there's enough room between the inner loop/outer loop switches to add on another 260 feet of platform at South Ferry (and some people on the board have said there is) then it can be extended to a 10 car station, though the platform extenders would remain and they'd probably need to install closed circuit camers so the C/R could see all the cars). Or as I said, they could build a island platform at SF using the back end of the outer loop track's platform for part of the new platform. That would allow for a straighter overall platform and keep the connection with the Lex, though the switch between the inner and outer loop again could cause problems.
The issue isn't identical. If the 5 were extended to South Ferry today, the station would have to be closed every rush hour. Once the 1 returns to South Ferry, it would continue to serve it at all times, so the station would always be open, only not served rush hours by the 5.
The 10-car marker for the switches from the inner track comes before the platform. That means that a full 15-car train (!) could fit between the switches and the current front of the platform, and a few more cars could fit past the front of the platform as well. There is more than ample space to extend the current South Ferry platform. That would be the best plan, IMO; other plans risk reducing capacity on the line.
How about making it a Subway, Bus and Ferry terminal complex.They are planning to renovate the South Ferry terminal anyway.Why not just build a complex?
"Planning"?
The new terminal is about 1/3 built. From the mockup drawings it looks like it won't be half bad. Too bad they won't have a 1-9, N-R transfer (but you are supposed to be able to get into the terminal from either line without going outside).
You can't take out the shuttle track as it is not just for the shuttle, but it an important non-revenue connector. If something happens to S/B 1/9 traffic they can run trains down the 4/5/6 and then get onto the 1/9 N/B.
Are you assuming that the tunnels are cool in August?
Save me the loop!
The old shuttle trackage is still used by midday and weekend 5 trains. How do you think they turn at Bowling Green?
When (If) they ever update those things, I think they should do the following:
Add the announcements for the 2 via Lex and 5 via 7th. The announcement would be something like this:
F: This is a Bronx-bound 5 train via 7th Avenue. The next stop is ..." In between stations on a timer triggered basis, it would announce M: "Attention customers, this train is operating via 7th Avenue due to (reason). If you need suggestions for an alternate route, please ask any uniformed employee. We apologize for any inconvienence and thank you for riding the MTA."
Only announce 6 local and 2 express where it matters. I don't want to be told this is a 6 local at Cypress Avenue, there are no 6 express trains to get on anyway. I have calculated that it takes approximately .5 seconds to say the word "local" and to remove it at the 9 stops between 177th and 3rd Avenue (except Hunters Point) would save almost 5 seconds per run. Five seconds is half of the dwell time for WMATA, maybe about a third to a fourth of the time at most stations in NYC. It does add up, especially on the all local 2. Since it says express even at stations like Fulton, it could save almost 10 seconds per run (I left it in at Chambers, 14th, 34th, 42nd, 72nd, and 96th, do the math to figure out how much time is saved by removing those).
Redo the program so that the trains do this:
F: This is a Bronx-bound 6 train. The next st-
M: Stand clear of the closing doors please!
(Ding-dong, doors close, train begins to move)
F: The next stop is 68th Street-Hunter College.
Don't have it do this:
F: This is a Parkchester-bound 6 local train. The next stop is Parkchester-East 177th Street.
It is repetitive and is about as bad as that WMATA T/O I described earlier in the week.
Allow the T/O to customize the route, stations, etc.
I can't think of any others but if I do, I will post them.
Please post your comments, opinions, etc.
Your ideas sound good. In addition to that, I would like to hear different voices for the "stand clear of the closing doors, please" announcement. This REALLY gets annoying and repetitive, especially if you have a long ride on a local. Why not add some celebrity voices like the taxicabs have, or at least have a few different non-celebrity voices, and rotate them so you hear a few different voices while you are on the train. -Nick
Oh PLEASE! The taxicab tapes with Donald Duck and the Rockettes are irritating as hell ... I have tried to TIP the driver to pitch the tape out the window but none of them has the stones. TLC is mighty scary these days I think.
But that "Watch the closing doors please" sounds like frigging Mister Ed, the talking horse, admonishing WILBUR. Sheesh. I'd much rather hear broken English, or for a REAL nostalgia ride, "Mrfbg-glibitz-shmoomrat-dugga-buppa-BING-BONG!" I'm sorry ... nothing else will do. If you don't know where you are, look at the damned map like New Yorkers did for 100 years. :)
LOL!!
I don't need to look at a map, I am talking about a closing doors announcement :-)
Funny how you think the taxicabs are scary, yet you are asking for "broken english" on the subways...do I smell a bit of irony here?? -Nick
I prefer "broken english" in cabs as well ... recordings irritate me, it's like those telemarketers ... "please stand by for an important phone call. Please remain on the line for the next available operator." Hell, if the call was so important, talk to me fer krissakes.
I think the city GREATLY overreacted to that moron John Rocker. I can understand "42nd st" with a Hindi accent, or "Broadway" in a Russian overtone. Ain't no big thing. I always preferred da city nice and crusty like a fresh bread. Folks don't come to NYC for velveeta. Or do they? :)
On trains with manual announcements, the Conductor is supposed to make the same door closing announcement at every stop (except the last one, naturally). What's the difference if the announcement is made by an automated system?
David
"On trains with manual announcements, the Conductor is supposed to make the same door closing announcement at every stop (except the last one, naturally). What's the difference if the announcement is made by an automated system?"
Well, at least the conductor can change his voice tone, and lots of the time the announcements are quiet and/or mumbled so it doesn't matter much anyways. But now we have clear, automated announcements (which for the most part is a very good thing), but hearing the same recording can get annoying. -Nick
Maybe different people for the individual lines, for example all the announcements on the 2 are done by the lady, all the announcements on the 6 by the man, and all the announcements on the L by that other lady. The alternating thing bothers me, especially on the L since the guy doesn't announce the transfers. Either have him say something or nothing at all.
He still says "Stand clear of the closing doors", "This is the last stop on this train" and "We apologize for the unavoidable delay."
Hardly anything in comparison to the R142 and R142A. Does he really say "we apologize for the unavoidable delay"? I heard on the R142A once he said "we are being held here by the train's dispatcher".
"Does he really say "we apologize for the unavoidable delay"?"
Yes, he really does say this...I've heard it myself. -Nick
I guess the TA tells him what to say, it sounds like what they would tell a human conductor to say.
"I guess the TA tells him what to say, it sounds like what they would tell a human conductor to say."
Exactly, and with one recording annunciation is guaranteed every time! -Nick
Announcements for the next stop while the train was in motion was done on the R110A. But it also made the next stop announcemnt while in the station. Something like this
(All voices female)
"This is a Manhattan-bound 2 train. The next stop is Allerton Avenue."
"Stand clear of the closing doors." (Bee-bee-bee-beep - Yes, they made that sound!)
(Train starts moving)
"The next stop is Allerton Avenue."
Now that's repetitive!
The next stop announcement is repetitive when you're at the next-to-last stop. It should go like this:
F: "This is Nereid." (Yes, I think Avenue, Road, Blvd and Street should not be announced at name stations.)
Doors open.
F: "The next and last stop on this train is 241st Street."
M: "Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
Ding-dong!
My idea was only to repeat the station name if it wasn't announced in the station. I don't care to hear it twice either. With the technology available, to design a program that can figure out if a certain point in the announcement was reached shouldn't be too hard.
Street, Blvd, Road, etc are needed. You are going to confuse people quite a bit with names like Hunters Point (6 and 7) and 23rd (there are two stops on the E with that name and other lines stop on 23rd as well).
How is this for the last stop?
F: This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 train.
M: Stand clear of the closing doors!
(doors close)
F: Pelham Bay Park will be next, the last stop for this train.
Actually on the 6 it's Hunts Point, not Hunters Point. I would keep Avenue, Street, etc, for lettered and numbered street stations (Avenue H, Avenue I, 14th Street, 23rd Street, etc). But for named streets (Fordham Road, Myrtle Avenue, Dyckman Street), you really don't need to have Avenue, Road, etc, announced.
I suppose it doesn't really matter, you don't save that much time by not saying Avenue, Road or Street. But it can't be that confusing, because Chicago, Philadelphia and London have stations with the same name on different lines. For example Philly has stations called Allegheny, Girard and Spring Garden on both the Broad Street Subway and the Market-Frankford El. I don't think people get confused by that.
They also only have two subway lines. NYC has 25. For example, if you are at Lexington Avenue on the E and V, you can get to 3 different 23rd something stations. There are multiple names for other stations as well. In Philly, there is only one station you can be at and get to both Spring Gardens without changing trains.
Also, you need to be consistent. Even though the signs at stations show the word Street at the numbered stations in Philly, the maps don't. You can't just show the numbers on the NYC map because it will confuse people. They do leave off the word street to save space at several stations, such as Chambers.
I'm sorry that this is off-topic, but I'm so happy that I was selected as one of the semifinalists in the Intel Science Talent Search! If any of you might take note, my school, Stuyvesant High School had 15 of the nation's 300 semifinalists and the second most in the country. We appeared in today's edition of the New York Times (Metro section page B3), Daily News, and Newsday (we're on the cover!!! of the New York City edition) and several chinese-language newspapers. We were also on NY1 and FOX5 news yesterday. For anyone who is curious, my project was a neuroscience topic concerning biological mechanisms of learning and memory. You can see my paper at http://www.nyrail.org/neuro/INTEL.doc.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Congrats, guy! Sorry you published in Microsoft Word format - your version is incompatible with the older one we use here but I'm sure it's quite deep.
Congratulations... As much as the teacher body has changed since I left (usually you only expect the student body to change that quickly), its good to know most else is the same :)
Tugrul Galatali, Stuy Class of 99
Hey, since when have you been hanging around here? Mike asked about you a few days ago, where have you been hiding? Still sticking with the shorts?
Mark
Sleep is a overrides everything but school and money. Getting up at some obscene hour in the morning to visit Stuy usually fails :)
Anyway, this is probably inappropriate here... torule@aim.
Congratulations, Daniel. You have a wonderful future and will make the world a better place.
If I wasn't from Hunter I'd congratulate you...
aw who'm I kidding, congrats on the good work.
so GOOD ON YOU!
Fabulous work. My wife is a pediatric neurologist. She'll enjoy looking through it.
Best of luck with your continued studies. You've got a foot into bioinformatics, definitely a happening field...
RonInBayside
Beverly Hills High School (Calif), Class of '79
If my mother hadn't detested cold weather, we might not have moved and I might have been in high school in New York, too...
Cool! That's very good news. And it's especially nice to see that Stuyvesant has done so well - for reasons too obvious to mention, this hasn't been a particularly good year for the school.
meant GOOD on YOU.
Sincere congrats Dan
Oh, those fond memories of high school. I too went to the infamous Stuyvesant...either location, either the old one or the new location, the beloved N would take you there....I entered that competition too, but it was still called the Westinghouse Science competition - does anybody remember that...then there was this year some girl did an actual project with respect to the slope of a subway platform and light reflection...she got some recognition...anyway, for my year, they were into either the social sciences or the environment...anyway, kudos for your effort. Walk straight to City Hall station, hop on an N train and celebrate...
SeaBeach53
I remember the Westinghouse Talent Search...and bringing my project to the school office a week ahead of the deadline...and then the Snail Mail delaying it so that all I got was a great "sorry, but it got here too late" letter!
Snail mail...the reason that email and faxes are so popular!
Chip
SI Tech '89
Congratulations! I guess you don't spend all your time railfanning ;-)
That's really something to be proud of. Congratulations! I even feel that some of the dignity rubs off on Subtalk.
It is something to be PROUD of. Congrats!!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
Even though I can't speak for SciGuy I feel happy for you. Congradulations
I notice that BVE considers "stations" when passing on the express track. How if you can fix this?
What you do is open up the rw. file and look at the times posted, then where the departure times are change that to the letter "L" and adjust the times or you will be caught by signals. Thats it.
Thanks!
You must have one of those ones from the "MSN" site - there were a number of routes that were not properly done and the only solution is to edit the ROUTE files (*.RW or *.CSV) ... it has a "1" for stop, change that to 0 and it becomes a "skip stop" ... but the reason for the problem is author headspace error ... the position is the one just before "ats" in the @station(name, etc) statements ... the route files are in plain text so any text editor will let you get in there and fix them ...
OK thanks I'll try that. Those signals were really ruining the express runs. Thanks!
Gee ... sounds like REALITY mode to me. :)
Under TMO's auspices,
I would SO like to make 5th Avenue a skip-stop
since I can BARELY get past it without BVE
halting me with a Script Error....
Whereas I can easily click on any given station
on the right top corner trip itinerary and
am transformed to that station in a zip!
Heh. Nah, can't do THAT with BVE as designed. Ernie Alstom's #7 line is FLAWLESS ... if you're getting an error, something's seriously wrong. Many folks who encounter script errors (and aren't running some of those crappy E, Q, D and B lines) are likely encountering them because they haven't downloaded and installed the "oldstruct" libraries which contain some "default objects" ...
The BVE Helper site might be useful if you haven't already installed the required "oldstruct" objects ... go here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/bve_inst.htm
The "Flushing line" is one of just a handful of REALLY well done NYC subway routes for BVE ... if you're getting errors, something's missing, most likely oldstruct. My ONLY complaint with the Flushing line route is that the timers are way too slow. You end up coming up to each automatic and just sitting there pretty much all the way to QBP. Then again, the real thing is like this.
If you skip 5th Avenue, expect to sit and rot at GCT and then follow the reds all the way through Steinway. One thing about BVE is that there is a train AHEAD of you ON schedule ... run too fast and you're going to hit it or rot behind the timers.
To make 5th an express, you need to change the "1" to a "0" so that it's not a required stop. You'll need to fish back along this thread for where I went into the specifics ... but it CAN be done.
ALSO ... HIGHLY recommend obtaining the NEW BVE 2.01 file from Mackoy - the signals are MUCH nicer and the graphic plots are tighter. The 2.01 update was required for that crappy Windows XPee version but the enhancements are nice to have anyway ...
How can you? Can someone tell me how so I can run the (7)or even the (B) train? It would be really fun to drive as the <7> or (11).
Not possible without rewriting the entire file. That'll take a while.
My mother was talking to me about this old newspaper where it showed kids living in the abandoned parts of the subways after running away from home. Even though this was nearly 30 years ago can there still be runaway kids hiding in the subway(It's not hard to get into the Chrystie street connector and the 63 street connector isn't so secure)? And while were on subway security is it possible terrorist are hiding explosives in abandoned portions of the subway(not to sound paranoid)?
I heard from someone today that it is now a federal offense to commit such an act on board public transporation.
No run away kids, or any other homeless, can be found in large quantities in the subway tunnels today.
bombs can go anywhere, if you want to be paranoid. someone can carry a bomb in their shoe, bag, etc onto a train or bus. how many buses in israel get bombed in such a manner?
Sure, it is possible but for various reasons I certainly don't think it's likely that abandoned portions of the subway would be used by terrorists as a bomb storage depot. Even placing bombs for the purpose of detonation in the abandoned parts of the subway is self defeating on account of being abandoned.
-Robert King
What about the mole people?
There was a movie years ago called "C.H.U.D.". Wasn't that about the mole people?
Mr. Night Train Show, C.H.U.D is Canaballistic Humanoid Underground Deweller. Its about nuclear waste being dumped in the sewers of NYC and the homeless get radiation sickness and attack the people above ground.
That is how i got my nickname chud cause i did not shave one day and my friends said i looked like a C.H.U.D.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
>>>...my friends said i looked like a C.H.U.D. <<<
Charlie, I've known you a number of years (way before this message board as a mattter of fact) and you look nothing like a C.H.U.D., shaven or unshaven.
Peace,
ANDEE
To answer the first post as well as the Mole People Post
first-
even Transit employees who have access to tracks must show their pass and another photo ID to the police officer(s) on duty at river tubes and other key locations and sign a log kept by the police.Also at many stations police even ask Station Agents for their pass number, badge number and a photo ID before even we are allowed to enter a booth or if already in the booth relieving or escorting, the officer will ask to see the pass,badge, etc. of all in the booth.
While the system is not 100% foolproof neither is your house ro the local fast food place. Security haqs been tightened so employees at Jay Street or Livingston cannot have any deliveries of flowers, candy, etc. since "the package can be used to hide harmful substances." Also, employees using the subway entrance to 270 Jay must have their bags searched and their pass visible over their outermost layer of clothing and the public must use the street entrance as pass through metal detectors. NYPD Officers are also present at both entrances in addition to the PPA (Propery Protection Agent- "Security guard").
Mr. reuter has also directed all employees outside of station booths (including Lunch reliefs) wear orange vests for easy identification. We are also instructed to report unattended packages and to report suspicious activity and persons such as persons entering or leaving non-public areas. I personally have challenged persons for their pass (which is per rules) and have reported some non-employees to the police which promptly ejected and ticketed the p[erson.
Further security measures are planned as well as some we dont know about.
Second-
as far as emergency exits, they are now alarmed and police respond when an emergency exit is opened. key rooms are also alarmed.
Third-
Mole people--See Brennan's Guide to disused stations for a discussion of this subject. Sure there are people living int unnels but there are no secret levels as mentioned in the book. Professor Brennan did extensive research to disprove the book " The Mole People."
Fourth- Police do ride trains, including in the cab of full cabs to check tunnels. All employees are instructed to immediately report the unusual- As Transit has told us " You are the Eyes and Ears Network" of the system. I have gotten compliments from supervisors asnd suprientendents for my awareness of system conditions. (and have told them "I am reporting this condition as per the rules or as per safety tip of the day for a certain date.)
This is alll the information I have and/or am free to reveal. I will not respond to posts on-site or via e-mail asking for details. (I might report suspicious e-mails if they make a threat- I'd have to report such activity but so far have had no such mail.)
Whenever I take Queens-bound 7 trains at the Times Sq. station, I notice tracks in the opposite direction. Where do they go and do they hold potential for transfers or connections anytime soon?
It's only a pair of tail tracks that go west to 8th Ave, ending at approximately the east wall of the 8th Ave. IND lower level. The tracks don't connect to anything else.
Supposely Then Mayor Hylan odered the building of the lower level tracks at 42/8 to prevent the IRT from extending the line to 11 Ave.
We've actually been talking about these tracks off and on over the last few months.
They're tail tracks, whose purpose is to allow trains to enter Times Square at a decent rate of speed. In the event of an incident in which the train fails to stop (or be stopped) at the end of the platform, there is room to stop the train without damaging anything. The tracks don't extend very far, though...couple hundred feet, maybe. Terminal stations without tail tracks usually have time signals set for a very slow speed to ensure that the train makes a proper stop -- if everything else fails, the train will hit a "bumping block," which will cause some damage but not as much as would happen without the "bumping block" there.
David
>>Whenever I take Queens-bound 7 trains at the Times Sq. station, I notice tracks in the opposite direction. Where do they go and do they hold potential for transfers or connections anytime soon?<<
If you're talking about the tracks on the west end of the Times square station, they go about one train lenght or so and dead end. That's for layups or taking out a bad order train so as not to tie things up during the rush hour. I don't know if they still use these tracks or not.
As far as future use, there is talk about extending the #7 line past Times Square to Jacob Javits Center which has no subway coverage.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for clearing it up.
The tracks only hold up to 8 cars, the last 3 stay in the station. They uses these tracks when heave snow the forcasted. At this point all train in the 7 line are laid up to GC Station on both tracks. All station in between are closed and trains use one track in GS to meet up with the Shuttle. I got this from some T/O who have worked on the 7 line before.
Robert
>>The tracks only hold up to 8 cars, the last 3 stay in the station.<<
I guess that explains why I never saw any trains layed up on those tracks. I was on an ERA fantrip years ago, I guess the LOW-Vs were being used. The special proceeded past Times Square to he bumping block. I never saw what it looked like with a wall of railfans at the front window !
Bill "Newkirk"
As I recall when I looked past, I don't think that it was electrified...
I think that's a crossover switch.
There might be one there.
Well if you mean looking WEST of Times Square those are just tail tracks. One day the 7 may be extended, but who knows?
One more question, many people have already mentioned of plans of extending the 7 to the Javits center. How would the MTA get a big drill down there? If they use another method, then how do they do it?
>>>How would the MTA get a big drill down there?<<
They would most likely just ride one in on the existing line.
Peace,
ANDEE
From Metro's Website:
For Immediate Release:
January 17, 2002
What's new for Metro in 2002
With the new year just beginning, Metro is looking ahead with new services, new challenges, and continuing dedication by providing the best level of transportation services found anywhere in the United States.
"With 2001 completed, Metro is looking ahead to 2002 with optimism and a continued commitment to being an integral part of the national capital region by providing safe, reliable, convenient, and cost-effective transit service," stated Metro's Chief Executive Officer Richard A. White.
"This year, we will receive new rail cars and new buses," said Mr. White. "Construction has already started and is expected to intensify later this year on our New York Avenue rail station on the Red Line and the Blue Line extension to Largo, Maryland. And we are continuing to work through a challenging time in the aftermath of September 11, as safety and security issues remain a key issue for all of us. This year we are aggressively moving ahead with the implementation of new security enhancements recently funded by the U.S. Congress and the White House."
Here are a few examples of what Metro has planned in 2002:
Metrorail:
• Throughout the year, Metro will continue to take delivery of its new Series 5000 railcars. The cars, which came on line last August 2001, are operating at this time on the Green Line. Metro has accepted 28 of these new railcars, and expects to have approximately two-thirds of these cars in service throughout the entire system by the end of 2002, and the entire fleet of 192 new railcars in service by spring 2003.
• This spring, Metro expects to award three major contracts to complete by the end of 2004 construction for the Red Line New York Avenue Metrorail station, and for the Blue Line extension to Largo. Preliminary construction activities for both the New York Avenue and Largo facilities are currently underway.
• Beginning this year, the award of a design-build contract for an additional 1,000-parking space structure at the Franconia-Springfield Metrorail station. Groundbreaking is anticipated in the spring 2002, with full completion of the parking structure by summer 2003.
• This summer, Metro expects to award a contract for its new Series 6000 railcars. The 68 new rail cars (with an option order for an additional 120 cars, depending on funding availability) will be allocated for system expansion and for anticipated service growth. The first new cars are currently projected to arrive on Metro property by the end of 2004.
• This summer, Metro expects to begin construction for new canopies to be placed over exposed escalator entrances at Metro stations to protect customers and escalator equipment from inclement weather. The total cost of the program is approximately $27 million. Metro expects to have canopies constructed at three stations (one each in the District of Columbia, Maryland and Virginia) by the end of 2002 and the entire project completed by 2005. Last summer, Metro's Board of Directors selected the design concept of Lourie & Chenoweth, LLC., as its choice for the Comprehensive Escalator Canopy Program Design Selection.
• Throughout the year, as part of its continuing efforts to rehabilitate and repair the elevators and escalators in the Metrorail system, Metro will rehabilitate four elevators and conduct ADA upgrades on 67 others. It will also complete comb plate repairs on 148 escalators while modernizing 50 others. Elevator rehabilitations will occur at the Medical Center, Pentagon City, Cheverly, Archives, and Gallery Place-Chinatown stations. Escalator modernizations and repairs will occur at Rosslyn, Farragut North, Metro Center, Van Ness-UDC, Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan, Pentagon and L'Enfant Plaza. These are in addition to 10 elevator rehabilitations and 43 elevator ADA upgrades, plus 51 escalator modernizations and 165 comb plate repairs, that were completed last year under Metro's multi-year program.
• This fall, construction will be completed for Metro's new Branch Avenue rail yard, located in Prince George's County, Maryland. This new yard will have storage tracks designed for 178 railcars along with a new railcar wash facility.
In addition, pending Board approval, Metro's proposed Capital Improvement Program for Fiscal Year 2003 (July 1, 2002-June 30, 2003) calls for the following Metro enhancements:
• A public hearing on general plans and an environmental evaluation on the construction of a new mezzanine, second entrance, and additional elevators and escalators at the Ballston-MU Metrorail station to handle the increasing number of customers in the growing Ballston neighborhood.
• A public hearing on general plans, an environmental study, and the completion of a new second entrance to the existing King Street Metrorail station on the mezzanine level to enlarge the station's capacity to handle increased ridership.
• Local community meetings on the design of an escalator canopy and adjacent Metropark improvements at the Clarendon Metrorail station.
• Public hearings, environmental studies, and award of design-build contracts for new parking structures at the West Falls Church (1,000 spaces), College Park (1,200 spaces) and New Carrollton (1,800 spaces) Metrorail stations.
• By fall 2002, complete structural construction and begin escalator and elevator communications installations for the projected completion of the expanded entrance at the Mount Vernon Square/Convention Center Station in early 2003.
Metrobus:
• Metro is now taking delivery of its new Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) buses. Metro expects to have the first 10 CNG buses in service by February 2002, a total of 38 buses in service by April 2002, and all 164 in service by August 2002.
• In addition to the 164 new CNG buses, Metro expects to take delivery by this October 2002 of 21 sixty-foot, articulated Neoplan USA buses. These buses will replace the current, aging 1983 M.A.N. articulated buses. Further, Metro expects to award a contract for a new order of 100 additional buses later this calendar year.
• Metro will install a new bus farebox system on all Metrobuses by the end of 2002 under an existing contract. The $20 million contract for the new fareboxes will provide the foundation for a seamless, regional, "smart" fare system with the replacement of the old fareboxes. The new fareboxes will have the ability to accept SmarTrip cards, which are currently available to customers utilizing the Metrorail system. SmarTrip cards are permanent, rechargeable farecards which are plastic -- just like regular credit cards -- and embedded with a computer chip that keeps track of the value of the card. In addition to accepting Metro's SmarTrip cards, the new fareboxes will also continue to accept cash fares.
Safety and Security Improvements
As part of its ongoing efforts to improve safety and security in the Metro system post-September 11, the White House and the United States Congress have thus far provided $49 million in emergency funding. In 2002, Metro will utilize this money to purchase, upgrade, and enhance the following safety and security measures:
• Provide enhanced Metro Transit Police presence with the addition of eight Explosive Detection Canine teams including necessary training and procurement of support vehicles. The first three canine teams will be available in late January 2002 and the remaining five available in October 2002.
• Provide for a continuity of Operations Command Center in the event of a failure at Metro's primary Command Center. Location and outfitting of an alternate site will be completed by the end of the year.
• Enhance security at Metro facilities by installing an employee ID entry system as well as the installation of vehicular gates. Expected completion date for all locations is fall 2002.
• Introduce pilot program by placing digital security cameras and recorders inside 100 Metrobuses. Procurement is expected by late spring 2002, with full installation completion by the end of the year.
• Install 175 bomb-resistant trash containers in the "free" areas of all 83 rail stations. Expected placement of bomb resistant trash containers is June 2002.
• Provide an Automatic Vehicle Locator (AVL) system for all buses in the fleet to pinpoint their exact location. This will take place under Metro's existing radio system contract and in accordance with the installation of new radios on the Metrobus fleet. Installation of the first AVL units is expected to start in summer 2002 and be completed by the fall of 2003.
• Provide personal protective equipment and training for 5,000 front line Metro employees in the various operating departments. All front line employees are expected to have this equipment and be fully trained by December 2002.
• Install programable intrusion equipment to alert police of the exact location of any unauthorized intrusion into the Metro system. Installation of first units is expected in summer 2002.
• Expand Metro's chemical sensor program. Sensors are currently installed at two undisclosed stations. This project will expand to 10 additional stations. Installation should be completed by December 2002.
• Install closed-circuit television (CCTV) and motion detection alarms for Metrorail shop facilities and rail yards. Installation expected to begin in summer 2002 and be completed by the December 2002.
• Complete the installation of a Metrorail fiber-optic infrastructure network vital for video recording devices and for other data communications purposes. Installation is expected to begin in summer 2002.
"Thanks to this commitment of $49 million from the Congress and the White House, we will be able to make our safe Metro system even safer for the more than one million customers who ride our buses and trains each weekday," said Mr. White. "We are a vital component of the region's emergency response, transportation, and evacuation system. This $49 million commitment is paramount in our ongoing efforts to maintain and preserve our well-deserved reputation as the nation's safest transit system."
• In another effort to improve safety and security, Metro will spend $2.3 million on video recording equipment for the 1,900 CCTV cameras in its Metrorail stations. Currently, the monitors are used by station managers to help them observe activity in the stations. The funding is covered by a $2.3 million credit that Metro received from Potomac Electric Power Company. Metro expects to have the first 14 stations wired for recording services by the end of January 2002 with the remaining stations completed by fall 2002.
Radio Communications
By this fall 2002, Metro is expected to complete above and below ground infrastructure enhancements for its fully integrated 490MHz Comprehensive Radio Communications System designed to provide Metro with a complete radio communications system for the Metro Transit Police, bus, rail, and maintenance departments. One main component of the new system will include new user equipment featuring more than 1,900 Motorola portable radios for police, operations supervisory personnel, and maintenance personnel; more than 3,000 mobile radios for bus and rail maintenance personnel; more than 50 Motorola mobile data terminals which will allow Transit Police direct access to state and federal crime databases from motor vehicles, and over 2,000 pagers for maintenance and operations personnel. The new system also will include 29 Motorola dispatch consoles.
Metro expects the following completion dates for this project:
• By this fall 2002, complete above-and below-ground infrastructure.
• By the end of 2002, complete installation of Metro Transit Police Department radios and mobile data terminals.
• Start installation of maintenance radios in 2002 and complete in spring 2003.
• Start installation of bus radios in 2002 and complete in fall 2003.
• Start installation of rail radios in 2002 and complete by the end of 2003.
"We have a lot of exciting projects planned for Metro in 2002," said Mr. White. "As an organization, I believe we have four key priorities for this year. One, the continued safety and security of the Metro system. We already lead the nation and the world in this area, and we must do everything possible to live up to that reputation in 2002. Two, putting together a strategic plan for securing the funding we need in the years ahead to repair, replace, and rehabilitate the Metro system, as well as to accommodate growing ridership and system expansion. Three, the implementation of a $55 million initiative to replace all of the key business systems within our organization, including financial management and capital program management, material management and maintenance, bus and rail scheduling, and personnel and payroll. And four, continue the culture change process so we become a much stronger internal organization that is better able to meet our external customers' needs."
Metro's fiscal year 2002 Budget (July 1, 2001 through June 30, 2002) calls for the operating budget to provide for revenues of $436 million, operating expenses of $796 million, and a gross subsidy requirement from the local jurisdictions of $360 million.
The Capital Improvement Program budget was approved by the Board at a mark of $1.1 billion. Together, these budgets represent a total of $1.9 billion, and fund 9,964 positions at Metro.
The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) was created by an interstate compact in1967 to plan, develop, build, finance, and operate a balanced regional transportation system in the national capital area. The Authority began building its rail system in 1969, acquired four regional bus systems in 1973, and began operating the first phase of Metrorail in 1976.
Today, Metrorail serves 83 stations and has 103 miles of track. A fleet of 772 rail cars provides service from 5:30 a.m. to midnight Monday through Thursday, 5:30 a.m. to 2 a.m. on Friday, 8 a.m. to 2 a.m. on Saturday, and 8 a.m. to midnight on Sunday.
Metrobus serves the nation's capital 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week with 1,443 buses. Metrorail and Metrobus serve a population of 3.4 million within a 1500 square mile jurisdiction. For more information about Metro, including schedules and fares, visit Metro's Web site at www.metroopensdoors.com.
---END---
All I can say is I hope CAF doesn't get the 6000 Series cars. Maybe Breda will bid and win this time. I haven't been on the 5000 Series but it only took forever and a day for them to arrive.
certainly well written PR verbiage.
1 CAF, BREDA? don't care so long as the quality assurance team from Metro lives at the factory.
2 DEMAND earlier AM service on Saturdays/Sundays NOW, 24/7 soon
3 It is impressive that it will take TWO YEARS to buld a station @ NY Ave.
We can't do 24/7 service without extensive single tracking which would be hard to coordinate. I propose a system of buses instead.
NOT TRUE!
Think, on any given night how many different track segments are being worked on? Certainly not many. This we can't run at night because of maintenance crap is a racist and ageist sham--real subways like NY and Chicago provide at least skeletal service for people who do not turn into pumpkins at midnight. For those of us who don't drive, having Cinderella Liberty is both insulting and constraining. Think about a music show, the headliner comes on at 11 or so planning to play til 2, you who have paid full admission have to leave at 11:30 or so to make the 'last train ' around midnight. All for maintenance work on maybe one line at a time? Surely single tracking with a train even every half hour would be adequate.
I am sure it would be adequete but if they could run buses instead, it might be easier on everyone. I don't think Metro ever considered doing that though.
NO! a bus from downtown--Union Station for example-to Rockville, even with signal preempts will take forever even in low overnght traffic. That is why we build exclusive ROW systems. As a stop gap measure, perhaps a network of express buses would be a good start, but my point remains--Metro is failing to serve its riders both overnight (at least they have given them "extended" hours on Friday and Saturday nights), and on weekend mornings. Think about either arriving on a red-eye at DCA or trying to take an early morning outbound flight. My last trip east, I was on an vening flight back to Oakland which was late enough to put me on the very last BART train from the airport station. Utherwise a thirty dollar cab ride. YUM.
The weekend morning thing is ridiculous. I think they should open 90 minutes earlier then.
You write Metro if you are so concerned. The person who advocated for the later closings is now the First Vice President of the Board.
I'm sure if they could get the funding, they would do so. They are already facing a $15 million shortfall. But 6 or 6:30 on weekends is the least they should do and then maybe extend service to 2AM all the time. Right now, even though fares are varied and can cost quite a bit for a one way rush hour fare, they only cover about half, if that much, of the total operating expenses to run it.
farebox recovery is a joke. particularly given that 60 % of rides are .9 miles (source washpost). if the funding is the issue why does mgmt. cite the mintenance window? We get the same lies from BART, whose staff are very suburb oriented. They have no interest in late night activities.
There definitely is a market out there for all night service. I've been on the last train at 2:06 from Metro Center and its very crowded, not SRO, but more than some Sunday afternoon trips I've taken on it. It was like pulling teeth just to get this extension. I'd love for it to run all night, it would make leaving my g/f's place in Cleveland Park a whole lot easier when I don't drive up there!
The last train is crowded because it is the last train. I have never taken any of the 4 2:06 trains from Metro Center but I imagine the 1:36 (2 trains earlier) is not all that crowded.
That station is also expected to cost $83 million dollars.....just for NY AV!!
Gee, I had to read into the Press Release just to find out which Metro is was (Washington DC, Seattle, Houston, etc). But your nickname was the giveaway.
PS
Anyone have photos of the borrowed equipment in Salt Lake City yet? (WMATA - CNG Bus, DART - LRV, others?)
With that whole MetroBus Fare Box overhaul, i think they need to make it accept Metrocards as well as smartrip. Get a $5 all day pass and you can use it bus and rail. it sure beats carrying a transfer, a quarter, and exactly $1.10 in change for the return trip
It will. Tt will even let you put in a 20 dollar bill and you will get change in the form of a farecard.
I know that Boston was the first state to have rapid transit and trolleys. My question is, what was the send state to start. Just curious that is all.
Boston has the first subway in North America. However it was a subway surface (light rail) version (no third rail). That is to say the cars ran undergrounf in the center of the city then ran on the surface when it left the city's center. NYC was the first with an all underground, heavy rail system.
Boston is a city not a state (or commonwealth).
And then there is still the question of the first rapid tranist in the country, as both New York and Chicago had elevated trains for a long time before any subways opened.
Mark
NYC was the first with an all underground, heavy rail system.
Boston had underground heavy rail service using a third rail before NYC.
NYC was NOT the first with underground heavy rail.
Boston beat out New York by six years. Their first line opened in 1898.
Maybe I'm just backing up my homeland, but Boston indeed had the original US subway, and second in the world. If you define subway as it is, a fully-sub)terannean rail(way, regardless of light rail versus heavy, then the short section fully underground in Boston between Boylston and Park Street Stations via Tremont Street definitely beat out the first fully underground IRT route via Broadway by 6 years. Read your history, this was the Tremont Street Subway. 'Tis true that shortly after September 1, 1897, construction began toward making the subway also a streetcar, interurban system and elevated system, but the short time it was the dedicated Tremont St Subway, unlike Beech's which did not last, is long enough for it to be the world's second subway/US first.
Close...Glasgow and Budapest opened subways in 1896.
Mark
True. But, he's talking about U.S. subways.
Peace,
ANDEE
My apologies for the memory lapse on Glasgow, I thought Budapest was shortly after Boston, and what about London--wasn't it first or is that common misnomer of the Glasgow system?
No-one confuses Glasgow and London! The thing with London is that what one defines as underground is a big question. Is cut and cover good enough. If so the first subway in London was the Metropolitan from Paddington to Farringdon in 1863. If you only count deep tubes, then the first in London was the Northern from Stockwell to King William Street (now replaced by Bank) on 11/4/1890. HOwever, both of these predate Glasgow.
Don't forget about Paris, plus I think there are a couple of more. All in all, I believe Boston is around 7th in the world.
Paris opened on 7/19/1900
Busted by New York again. The original subway was built in secret so as not to pay kickbacks to Boss Tweed and his Tammany Hall.
Umm, I thought that had been squashed long ago on another technicality with the original subject heading, "Boston and other subways," by somebody saying that original subway only included original SUCCESFUL subway; and lest I checked straphangers aren't underneath New York on air. I mean, perhaps we could go back to 1849 and say San Fran had the first subway--picture drunk down-and-out miners joy-riding through the mines :)
i don't make things up and this was a surprise to me. What the system was ....a cylindrical car in a tunnel propelled by air pressure generated by turbines. When the car reached the end and it was time to go back, the operator engaged a signal which would reverse the air flow. It was amazing to see how glorious the stations were....I think our webhost may know more and may be able to provide a few links to the past. CI Peter
Yeah, yeah...But, it only ran for a block or two.
Peace,
ANDEE
AND it was amazing.....cost a full nickel too.
HEY, I'm a lifelong New Yawker, and I agree with you totally. Boston did have the first U.S. subway.
Peace,
ANDEE
If London is considered to have had the first subway, using steam
power, I don't see why the Park Avenue tunnel in NY is not then
also considered a subway, and it predated Tremont street by
years. There was even an underground station (86 St, I think)
in the middle of it.
Can't remember the technicalities right now but it has been on the internet that the first subway was a air forced wooden coach in a specially built tunnel in lower Manhattan....there were pics of on of the grand stations online. New York wins agian...the Yankess win...the Yankees win.... CI Peter
You are opening up a whole can of worms here by using the words "rapid transit and trolleys".
The first successful use of trolleys under electric power was in Richmond, VA. Others before worked to some extent but weren't a "successful" design. Then of course you had horsecar trolleys that moved much more rapidly then anything else in their day.
Another poster mentioned elevated rapid transit, the first were steam powered, as was LONDON's (the first subway in the World).
So, New York's IRT in 1904 was first in the USA, from the standpoint of a electric powered totally underground system. This ignores the pneumatic system in Manhattan that proceeded it (it was also unsuccessful).
Final point, there were quite a few "subway" systems that preceeded NY's outside the US.
Mr rt__:^)
By train: NY Penn Station to Providence, RI: 2 people, round trip = $240 to $320 (Acela)
By bus: $114 round trip.
Since the bus is a half hour faster (or equal to the Acela), and my mom isn't a railfan, this weekend is going to be a disappointing bus ride.
Damn!
If you had reserved earlier (7 days in advance), you could have gotten a free companion ticket on Amtrak outside of peak hours (peak hours are normally Fridays and Sundays 11am-11pm). This discount is apparently on top of any Student Advantage or Veterans Advantage discount (but not any other discounts), and applies nationwide.
Also, there is 20% discount for tickets between anywhere in the Northeast and New York as part of Paint the Town Red White and Blue, peak trains included. Actually although it says it's for Amtrak travel to/from New York, it seems to work for any Northeast (not long-distance) train even if you don't go near New York. This promotion isn't listed anywhere on the Amtrak website.
Both promotions exclude Metroliners and Acela Express.
It may be longer due to the approaching snow.
<< By train: NY Penn Station to Providence, RI: 2 people, round trip = $240 to $320 (Acela)>>
Those fares are ridiculously expensive. I know Amtrak needs to be financially self-supporting but who (except for the expense report set) will pay those fares?
You need to know how to work the promotions. It cost me $11.70 to go to Cleveland. Using student advantage off-peak it costs me 41$ to go home from Meriden to Philly. AAA membership also gives discounts. Amtrak fares are extremely inconsistant. It basically costs about $50 to go from NYC to Philly, or Newark to Philly, or New Haven to Philly or Meriden to Philly. Also, some routes are way underpriced as compared to others. For example a same day round trip on the Downeaster costs $35.
>>>It cost me $11.70 to go to Cleveland. <<<
From where?
Peace,
ANDEE
Philly.
Are you the same Jersey Mike who a few months ago chided me for asking Amtrak to make good on their service guarantee promise when they provided less than adequate service? Shame on you for not paying full fare to help keep Amtrak solvent!
On a positive note, I'm taking Acela Express to/from NYC this coming Wednesday for a business trip. It will be my 12th round trip, and total trip time will be about the same time as flying, as well as save my employer about $100 over standard airfares (my one-day, peak-time trip is not eligible for airline discounts). Plus, the suburban Boston Amtrak station is very convenient for me, and I'll be right at the A Train for a short ride to my appointment.
Yes. Not only did I get a refund for that Acela Express trip which started that whole threat, I on a pretty hefty discount myself.
>>>>Are you the same Jersey Mike who a few months ago chided me for asking Amtrak to make good on their service guarantee promise when they provided less than adequate service? Shame on you for not paying full fare to help keep Amtrak solvent! <<<
HAHAHA Touche, Touche....
Peace,
AMDEE
Subtalker Lexcie did pay full fare on his BOS to WAS leg as it was covered by an expense account. Furthermore, I ended up paying $80 to Amtrak for the entire trip + some vending machine revenue at Cleveland + Breakfast on the Capitol. Had the fares been higher Amtrak would have gotten $0.
The last time I did a roundtrip from Berlin, CT (serves New Britain area) to Union Station in Washington DC, the fare was $136. That was on March 12, 2001. The one-way fare last December 4th (a Tuesday) from Berlin to 30th Street Station in Philadelphia was $47. It was on an unreserved coach.
As for the Downeaster, look at what cities and towns it services. You leave from Boston's North Station. Too bad SOUTH Station is the one with the bus connections. There will be service to Old Orchard Beach, ME in the summer. It's an excellent example of a resort town. Just don't live there in the winter like I did in the 80s. The schedule suggests that it's for tourists and not for the average commuter.
The schedule suggests that it's for tourists and not for the average commuter.
So it costs less to transport tourists?
They won't pay as much as a commuter most likely.
Amtrak is not in the commuter business. If commuters are what is desired, then MBTA should seek a subsidies from New Hampshire and Maine and run it.
If there is a station that is not under the earth, but is below street level and everything is built up around it so that it appears underground, would you still call it an underground station?
Covered? Lower Level?
"Underground" if the entire area has been raised. Are we talking about the raised areas of Atlanta and Seattle?
Yeah, Atlanta is what I had in mind. I am thinking when a station does not rest below the dirt, but is covered by viaducts and buildings that, if otherwise, would be considered ground level.
I would call that situation "underground" "with an asterisk" if I were describing it is a book or article.
A different example is the East New York station of the LIRR. The line is underground but it rises to street level for the station. The station is completely covered because PART of Atlantic Avenue stays on top of the rail as a sort of flyover. But I wouldn't call it an underground station, because the land and street surface all around it is unchanged and at the same level as the station.
What station(s) in Atlanta are at street level but covered because the street was raised? Is it interesting or unusual to look at?
The East New York LIRR station is definitely not underground. You can see the surface streets and I believe there might be level exits.
:-) Andrew
There are street level exits.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Lenox, upper level of Five Points, and Philips Arena/Dome/GWCC are three that come to mind. These stations were built, however, after the streets were raised (Lenox I'm not too sure about when). It's somewhat interesting to look at from outside the station I guess, I know have any pictures to show though.
A different example is the East New York station of the LIRR. The line is underground but it rises to street level for the station. The station is completely covered because PART of Atlantic Avenue stays on top of the rail as a sort of flyover. But I wouldn't call it an underground station, because the land and street surface all around it is unchanged and at the same level as the station.
There is probably an official classification as to whether it's underground or not if merely as a fire safety matter. Certain of the most unlikely main line stations in England are considered underground for almost exactly the same situation as ENY on the LIRR (take a look at Birmingham New Street for instance - on second thoughts don't - it's horrible).
A station in a covered cut?
Below street, sub-street, under-street, lower level. 'Street level' is relative. Chicago also has streets with lower levels, a la Atlanta. Since bridges have lower levels, a reference to the 'X St. lower level station' makes sense in context.
So then what would you call stations like the ones on the IND Concourse Line, where stations are both above street level AND below street level at the same time, with exits up to Grand Concourse and down to the cross streets below? The station itself is both a bridge and tunnel!
>>>So then what would you call stations like the ones on the IND Concourse Line, where stations are both above street level AND below street level at the same time, with exits up to Grand Concourse and down to the cross streets below?<<<
An engineering marvel! I'm biased because my Grandfather was one of the designers.
Peace,
ANDEE
How many stations are like this? I've been to 174-175.
Confused.
I believe it would be referred to as an Open Cut station....but i have no clue
Of course, there wouldn't be a nomenclature issue in New York, because such a station would clearly be a "subway" station--we don't use "underground" as descriptive. Generally rights-of-way are subway, elevated, surface, cut and embankment, or transitions between those. Some of the elevated structures are really viaducts, but you never talk about a "viaduct station."
I think when they report line mileages, they just use subway, elevated and surface/other.
It was interesting how in January's new City Section of Train Magazine there is a pic of the venerable Redbirds being literally pushed into the Hudson River, while February's section features an article on the preservation of Boston's old PCC's. So I need a New Yorker's opinion (or two)--was it time for the Redbirds to go? In Boston, as the article relates, the old PCC's are not only a historical item that is keep in top shape, work is being done to restore them to their "natural" color. Personally, I think some of the Redbirds should've seen a second life on the Red Line up here in Boston--they're already painted red, all we'd have to do is renumber them, swap the "MTA" for a "T" and they're good to go :) Lastly, I haven't been following MTA news very closely lately--are the R62's next?
Redbirds time to go has definately come. The R-62's and 62a's are in great shape and should be around another 20 years, they are only hitting their late teens or early twenties now.
The oldest "Redbirds" have been in service for more than 40 years. They're also in sad shape as they're also rusting in places. Some cars on the B division are next on the scrapping list.
#3 West End Jeff
Mainly the R-38/40S/40M and 42's (in the worst to best order of course)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Some of the R-40s have rust of the roofs. In a few cases the rust has eaten through the metal.
#3 West End Jeff
Too Soon.
& being replaced by non usa built imported scrappers !!
>>>...there is a pic of the venerable Redbirds being literally pushed into the Hudson River.<<<
I wasn't aware of any redbirds being dumped in the Hudson. This is news to me. Is this picture available on line?
Peace,
ANDEE
*lmao* I believe he realllly meant into the Atlantic....typo, I suppose :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Definitely the Atlantic. There is no way they would dump them in the Hudson.
my man !!
My idea would have 1 Redbird for each of the numbered lines refurbished with all the bells and whistle in time for 2004. The Irt would then be officially 100 and we could celebrated by having 1 specially done up train on each line. Any comments?
Everyone gets a personal respirator. CI Peter
ROTHLMAO. We could have a foodfight with Bondo too.
I can hear John Belushi right now:
BONDO FIIII-IIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Redbirds could also be an inspiration for a Swiss cheeze commercial !
Bill "Newkirk"
Well ... the redbirds are to 1904 as the R68's are to 1933 on the IND. Not related at all. If the purpose were recognition of history, then it would be time to access and refurbish a whole lot of HiV's and Gibbs cars for the event. Redbirds are the equivalent of R142's as far as history is concerned ...
i agree with U
C'mon, man ... wouldn't you prefer a LoV for that shindig? Not only a BIG foamer glass in the middle, but SEATED glass on the left as well! No need to stand. Besides, to those of us who are OUR age, the LoV's were the REAL IRT, them damned redbirds were Johnny come latelies. Interlopers. Hosers. Thieves of the IRT. :)
yes LOW VS HIGH VS & THE REDBIRDS ( at least several sets )
excuse the caps but
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO CELEBRATE THE SUBWAY SYSTEM 100TH BIRTHDAY
WITH NO RAILFAN WINDOW EQUIPPED RAIL CARS ????????....!!
bummer eh ??
yes LOW VS HIGH VS & THE REDBIRDS ( at least several sets )
excuse the caps but
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO CELEBRATE THE SUBWAY SYSTEM 100TH BIRTHDAY
WITH NO RAILFAN WINDOW EQUIPPED RAIL CARS ????????....!!
bummer eh ??
Thats easy. We can program the TODs to say Happy New Year.
transverse cab.................TODs.??
no, lol........!
Point of Order: The original 1904 cars (The Composites and the Gibbs HV cars) had the entire vestibule area closed off when it was used as a motorman's cab. Train men nicknamed them "The Merry Widows" because of this feature. (In other words, no rail fan window.) The standard IRT foldaway cab feature began with the "Deck Roof" cars of 1907.
Metal snips. 'nuff said. :)
Just as the R-1/9s were the real IND.
so by this summer all of the birds will B gone ..??
Ayup ... the R10's were hosers too. :)
Of course, how could I forget the R-10s? Although they were considered the first cars ordered specifically for use on the IND and BMT, they will always be IND to me. And forever synonimous with the A.
R10's were a later purchase, not original equipment. They were the "redbirds" of the IND ... second generation, spoke english. :)
Agreed.
Here ya go bro ... *THIS* is the IRT ...
thats a good idea but how about this. we get every single nalstagac train we have get them ready, and run them on the system for that one day. railfans all around i think would love that idea. think about it i would love to see all the old style trains working again.
I agree. Anything that can run, at Court St or CI, or where ever else they're lurking, should be dusted off, shined up, and run in revenue service at least that day, if not the entire week. Good call.
wonderful !!
lol!! I agree with U.......
Some of the Redbirds are/were in awful shape. Others, like most on the 2 (and now the 5), are still in decent shape. As many as are necessary should be kept and used for service improvements.
We need to remember that MIDoT funds Amtrak's operations in its state and can to some extent call the shots. First, the current International is going to be eliminated and replaced w/ the Bluewater. It will arrive early morning in Chicago and leave that afternoon. This will be cheaper as Amtrak will only need one trainset. Second, both Amtrak and MIDoT agree that any Chicago-Toronto train should go through Detriot and MIDoT wants Amtrak to start up this new "International" the day after the old International is terminated. CN has already spent money upgrading the tracks along the route, but use of the Detriot River Tunnel would bypass the existing Amtrak Detriot Station and require a temporary station in Windsor. (Note the Abandonned Michigan Central (NYC) depot does still exist, maybe we could see a restoration.)
< First, the current International is going to be eliminated and replaced w/ the Bluewater. >
That is a recommendation by Mich ARP to Mich DOT, period, nothing more. Please stop stating it as fact. This is how untrue railfan rumors start, like a few months ago when a lot of you started babbling that the Vermonter was gone for good, and then it came back a week later.
< This will be cheaper as Amtrak will only need one trainset. >
If 350/353 (or 355 on Sun) are extended to/from Toronto as a VIA/Windsor train, it will require TWO Amtrak trainsets to cover. 350/355 are also the trains that Amtrak fumbles with in Detroit with express cars. The Blue Water would require yet another Amtrak trainset. The VIA portion of the International to Sarnia would be covered by one VIA transet. VIA breaks even on equipment, Amtrak has to scrape up another trainset. It is unclear how such a train would serve Windsor. Nobody is going to build another Windsor station.
Story here.
heh... Shades of Close Encounters of the Third Kind. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I believe I remember LIRR type signs at the N,R station at Canal St years back. It was white with black letters and a black stripe on the top (like the old LIRR signs with the black stripe before the current signs with the blue stripe) I think I also remember them along Broadway on the N,R. Am I imagining this or were the standard signs on the subway like that for a time. When did the change to the Black with white letters they use now?
Yes, the station signs were white with black lettering. They changed them because white letters on a black background appear larger to the human eye. They used to have an exhibit showing this at the Transit Museum. I do not recall the year rhey changed them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The change started in the late 70's or maybe the early 80's.
Until the early or mid-90's, one remaining black-on-white platform sign over the NB 2/3 track at 72 (near the south end of the platform) still had a magenta(?) 3. I'm afraid I do not have a photograph.
Once the redbird retirement is complete, The Bronx will have no subway cars in service dating before 1984.
Not bad, really, for a place some say is "neglected".
:-) Andrew
Talk to me in 20 years. 8-))
Peace,
ANDEE
At the home for Retired Foamers?
Yeap, you got that right.
Peace,
ANDEE
Overlooking Branford, I hope :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Retired Foamers <<<
A true oxymoron. :-)
Tom
It's terrible. No true railfan windows (at least once the 3 trainsets go back home)! Get them while you still can.
Got a quick opinion-question for you all. I'm heading down to New Haven over the long weekend (with a hop over to NYC of course via car or Metro-North) and I've got this situation. I'm taking an unreserved train down which leaves me extra money to burn on the way back and as I've never ridden Acela Express, I'm considering it. It's $20 over Acela Regional, my other option at the times available, but when I add up the time savings we're only talking about 20 minutes! So, tell me, is the experience on Acela Express worth $1/minute or should I just take the Regional and pocket the savings?
I say.. take the Acela Express once just for the railfan value then don't bother. Like you said it's only a small time shaved off and a higher price. I rode the A.E. once between Baltimore and Newark, but I wouldn't shell out for it again.
Yes, I agree with Dave. Take it once for the experience.
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree. Come on, treat yourself. It is a cool ride.
It is a great experience, paying an extra 20 dollars once can't hurt.
Definitely you should ride it for the experience. For me it's also worth the extra cost when going between New Jersey and Washington, not so much from the time standpoint (although that's nice too) but from the rider comfort standpoint. Wish I could do it every time... it can only be justified when I'm going by myself though. With my wife and/or my younger son along the car becomes the much more cost-effective choice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Definitely you should ride it for the experience. For me it's also worth the extra cost when going between New Jersey and Washington, not so much from the time standpoint (although that's nice too) but from the rider comfort standpoint.)
I took the Acela down to, and the Metroliner up from, DC. I sat at a table on the Acela, and a regular seat on Metroliner. I found the Metroliner to be more comfortable than Acela, and definately more comfortable than an airplane.
LEG ROOM!
curious. I thought the AE I rode in early Sept rode better than any Amfleet car I had ever been in (no matter which chairs or paint schemes)
LEG ROOM!
Absolutely. I've not ridden at a table seat, only a "regular" one on the AE; the leg room was great. And, IMHO, it was more comfortable than the Metroliner - not from a leg room standpoint necessarily, that was about the same - but it was a smoother, quieter ride. Less echoes in the car too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the Metroliner, or Amfleet, cars have better leg rests...I find the AE leg rests annoying...I use my briefcase instead.
Frankly, I've only taken the AE from Philly to DC, or Philly to NYC, never DC to NYC, and the extra time saved (couple of minutes tops) and the supposedly smoother ride are hardly worth the extra money. It was fun the first couple of times, but now I take the Acela Regionals or a Clocker if I'm paying for it, and the AE if work pays.
Do it once. It's nice, but it's not worth the money. It's fun to do it once though. I rode it about 3 weeks or so after it started.
Don't expect it to be an amazing experience. It's like a better Amfleet, IMHO. The ride isn't much better, but it's quieter
I wouldn't spend the money. Metro North is a very slow railroad (top speed is 75 except for a very, very short stretch at 90 mph.) You really can't appreciate AE unless you're running 125 mpg.
Michael
Most likely, he wouldn't use it between NY and New Haven.
Commemoration in Transit, a look at how transit properties publically commemorated the events of September 11, is now open. This is a slideshow showing how authorities commemorated those who lost their lives in the national tradgedy. An example of such a commemoration would be the displaying "IN COMMEMORATION" message on the information signs on the DC Metro on September 14.
To see Commemoration in Transit, click here or point your browsers to http://www.geocities.com/otpcommemoration/ (the link will work even though Geocities doesn't allow remote loading, I have my ways). Links from the rest of my site, www.orenstransitpage.com, will be available within the hour if all goes well. I stongly advise your using Internet Explorer to view these and all the other pages on my site.
If you have a photo you wish to contribute, questions, or comments, please e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com. You may also use one of the customer service buttons located throughout the site.
If traffic is heavy, additional servers will be added.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
In Boston, many of the trolleys on the Green Line had their numbers lowered and in that place an American flag decal was place. At UMass Transit, the company I drive part time for, a small American flag decal was placed in the corner of the first passenger window on the right side on all our RTS buses and a larger flag on the right side AC grill underneath the company logo.
For the trolleys with flags placed on their front and/or rear, the numbers weren't moved--the flags were placed underneath. The trolleys that have had their front/rear numbers moved are the Type 7's that have been repainted, either in the new livery or with full-body advertising.
Thank you. Do you mind if I add this information?
Your link caused NOTHING BUT TROUBLE on my browser please don't do it again, thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
Your link caused NOTHING BUT TROUBLE on my browser please don't do it again, thanks
Me too, AND it is bad practice to use sound files without warning the user first. I work in an office and hearing a tinny "Yankee Doodle" blaring out of my speakers was disruptive. I don't want to have turn my sound off to click on transit links.
Please be more respectful of other users' needs and equipment.
Typical of those who write web pages SOLELY for Internet Exploiter. I also got oodles of alarms and alerts about "Comet cursor" a KNOWN "spyware" program and the javascript hung trying to hook up my "humancounter" whatever thingy.
AVOID THIS SITE!
Typical of those who write web pages SOLELY for Internet Exploiter.
I am *using* Internet Explorer, and this board is not the forum for the umpteen-thousandth reiteration of the Browser Wars.
It's more that it's bad practice to (1) take over someone's browser regardless; and (2) blast them with sound effects without notifying them. (This is a common and very annoying sin among a number of private railfan sites. You know who you are!)
Kevin, what broswer do you use? I use Opera 6 and I love it. It's very fast and keeps all the browser windows in one window. No pop-ups here. But it the site didn't completely work for me either. I had to reload the image to see the whole thing. Also, Have you heard of Ad Ware? It finds spyware on your computer and deletes it. Try finding it at download.com. The first time I used it, I found whopping 57 programs. I be sure to run it every once in a while.
We have all that under control on this end ... know ad aware well. I use Netscape 4.76 on Billyware boxes and Mozilla milestone 18 on the Linux boxes. But word to any webmeisters out there - better than 50% of ALL visitors do NOT have javascript turned on ... sites that depend on javascript cannot count on their visitors using it. Popups alone are reason enough to travel without javascript turned on and most know the little trick to avoid being "tracked" ...
At the server on our front end here, if a page has plug-ins (including shockwave flash) then the page is halted and plain text page source gets delivered instead ... we do that with our email as well. Javascript is THE method of choice for transporting viruses, especially if the victim is using Internet Explorer which will just run it without even bothering to ask ...
I've found over the years that stuff built with Front Page tends to cause far more problems for Netscape users than stuff built on a Netscape platform causes for people using IE4/IE5 browers (Netscape 6 does better with the Front Page landmines Mr. Gates' people put in, but the AOL Time Warner people added their own new quirks that keep me staying with Netscape 4.79 for now).
Yep ... that's why I'm grateful for Dave Pirmann's work here - works on ALL browsers, with or without "javascript" ... sites that don't or require JS to function are never seen again in this house. :)
I'll second that.
Yup, there's only a little bit of javascript here, mostly cribbed from other sites. On the front page, there's an onMouseOver for the image that changes at the bottom. Also each page has a little JS header to attempt to perform a frame break-out, for instance if some other site has "framed" pages from this site. I even got an email from a site webmaster that had done this, more or less put their own ad banner on top of nycsubway.org pages. He said he'd take my site's link off his own unless I removed that frame break-out. I'm like, what, so you can sell more ads around my content. G. F. Y.
David: Once again, just a little note of appreciation for a well-designed and lightweight site that loads reliably and uses minimal graphics well. OH, if only some of the OTHER railfan sites would follow your lead ....
Ditto!
Eric D. Smith
Heh. Why would ANYONE want to look at this place framed by ads when they can just come here and bask in the glow FULL screen? Dave, I'm PROUDAYA ... and it's an absolute pleasure coming here, avoiding LOUD train whistles, dancing icons and popunder ads ... wish some other "webmeisters" would get the clue.
There's perl by the way that can allow you to check the "referer" (official Netscape misspelling) to see if they came from you or requested the pages directly. You could pull what "Angelfire" is doing and substitute "screw this hoser, click here for nycsubway.org" ... heh.
Some of us other webmasters are on low budget operations. Either we get free servers that come with ads or we aren't online. I have to say, some of those free servers have too many, but I think others are fairly decent.
Either give me a whole ton of money so I can get an totally ad free site, or deal with the ads.
Might want to re-read the topic - the OTHER "webmaster" is violating copyright law by taking Dave's pages, framing them in HIS pages and then calling it all HIS intellectual property. This has nothing to do with sites that require javascript to see the page ... those I just never visit ...
My bad.
As for not visiting the sites w/ JavaScript, your loss most likely, since very few are out there to track you.
Personally, I don't care about the "tracking" issues - we make software that takes care of THAT issue ... for me, the javascript ALWAYS staying off is the result of the neverending SECURITY problems with buffer overflows, the ability of some "objects" to get at the file system and genuine concerns ... if someone manages to extract the source code off one of our machines for what we make, we're done.
Therefore, if a site requires javascript, I'm NOT turning it on. To hell with any such sites ... javascript's main purpose is those annoying popup/popunder ads and of course silly, bandwidth wasting nonsense ... but it's the SECURITY issues that make javascript a bad idea, ESPECIALLY in Aiyee ...
It's not hard to use the (NOSCRIPT) tags to ensure that those who also don't allow javascript get to see a page. If I draw a blank or find that links won't work without it, that page no longer exists as far as many are concerned. But just so's ya know it isn't anything personal - we have to protect our machines given what we do and many others have learned that javascript isn't a good idea among "untrusted sites" as a default, often through hard experience.
Understood. Do you know how to get this no script thing? E-mail me privately please.
Any good html tutorial will tell you... here's my favorite: Quadzilla Archive at WDVL. Basically, the NOSCRIPT tag simply allows the page designer to provide alternate content for those who have Javascript disabled.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't really use HTML tutorials, mainly because I don't have the need. I will look into it.
Thanks.
There is only one reason I don't use Opera. It seems petty, but here it is: Opera doesn't scroll to the next screen when I hit space. Yes, I know I could use the PgDn key, but the space bar is how I've always done it. Unlike everything else, this doesn't seem to be configurable. I'm hoping I'm wrong -- am I?
Space bar! I never new it could do that.
I use Opera. But I've weaned myself from spacebar ever since those roller-wheel mouses came out.
Opera 6 lets you use the spacebar to scroll down, I just tried it, it works. I don't remember about Opera 5, becuase I use the wheel on the mouse to do that anyway.
My gripe with Opera 5 was that after loading 2 or 3 pages it would stop browsing, so I didn't use Opera 5 that much. I think it might have to do with my old OS (WinME), which sucked. But now I got Opera 6 and Win2000, so I'll never know for sure the real reason.
Look at that! Opera 6 added the spacebar feature. Yippee! I'm using it now and I think I'll stick with it.
As for David's suggestion to use the mouse, I find it easier to scroll a full screen at a time without taking my hands off the keyboard. Incidentally, the scroll wheel on my mouse, for reasons unbeknownst to me, works in Opera but not in IE (and not in most programs).
It caused Netscape to bomb out entirely on me with the Windows crash notification box when I clicked on the slide show at this end.
Which is why I said don't use Netscape. When I did my Netscape test (I have both IE and NS for this sort of situation), it did that too. Since I am only a single computer, I can't verify the results but it seems there are issues with NS which I will work on. I must say though, that more than 90% of my visitors use IE and since I do have other commitments, to make my site fully compatible for both isn't feasible. I will see if any of the JavaScripts running are IE only. I might just make a NS version this weekend if the need persists.
Just don't program specifically for internet explorer and your website should run on just about all the currently available browsers. That's what I've been doing for several years now and I haven't had any problems.
Similarly, I can write very portable ANSI compliant C/C++ programs, as long as they only require a text interface, and recompile and run them on just about any system (Amiga, DOS, Windows, presumably Macintosh but I've never tried, Unix of various sorts etc...) with few changes if any, and this is real programming too, not websites.
-Robert King
I don't this seems to be just one page. The photo galleries work fine with Netscape although the site will run better with IE.
It seems enough of you are using NS so I will make a NS version of the slideshow.
That thing set off so many alarms on this end that our proxy server DUMPED on all the alarms generated ... you'll find that IMG tags and a few tables can work wonders ... but Microsoft's (ahem) "javascript" (it's actually called Windows scripting host scripting) is like everything else Mickeysoft - NOT standard, designed to hose anything that didn't come out of Redmond ... fewer and fewer people are using Microsquish these days and opt for things like Mozilla, Opera and other OS's entirely. Even Microsoft's XML isn't standard either which means if you want to have maximum eyeballs, try to fudge your exhibit in pure HTML code. You can't go wrong THAT way ...
I'll add a warning for the redirect page if it is such a large concern of yours. A good assumtion to take when browsing on any website fpr the first time is to be prepared for any bells and whistles. We as webmasters can't figure out the preferences of each of our visitors before hand, or we make a mistake.
I hope you return to the site, fully aware there is music and sound effects on that and a few other pages.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
I'll add a warning for the redirect page if it is such a large concern of yours.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
A good assumtion to take when browsing on any website fpr the first time is to be prepared for any bells and whistles. We as webmasters can't figure out the preferences of each of our visitors before hand ...
Au contraire. Good, elegantly designed websites use a MINIMUM of features to convey the information. SubTalk is actually an example of this (although for my preference the screens are a bit tall). Webmasters who use every last possible HTML trick and multimedia effect are in the same class as those folks who, when the Mac first came out, wrote letters that had bold, italic, highlighted, outlined lettering in multiple fonts.
Just because a bell and whistle is available does not mean it OUGHT to be used. In this case, less is more.
Just because a bell and whistle is available does not mean it OUGHT to be used. In this case, less is more.
And, let me just add to WMATA ... from the little I saw before I killed it, I can't imagine how your site would lose from (a) silence, which is my preferred soundtrack when viewing 9/11-related pix; and (b) not taking over users' browsers. I can't see where either of those changes would negatively affect your content in the slightest.
Truly.
Just because a bell and whistle is available does not mean it OUGHT to be used. In this case, less is more.
Very True.
nycsubway.org is a perfect example of how a web site should look. Also, this is the best organized site I've seen. It is very intuitive to navagate.
Were using Netscape? My stats show some people did that, which may be your problem.
Otherwise, can you describe the nature of your problems?
There's a thing called "HTML" which works with anything. Geocities is also trying to dump classes and javascript as well ... and that "humancounter" thing just latched the system on me entirely.
What are you talking about? If you find a better server than Geocities (they aren't great but it does work), let me know. Keep in mind it has got to be free or virtually free because I am not made of money.
Secondly, there isn't CometCursor on my site, it was removed. You sure you weren't reading the removal notice? If it appears, inform me of specific pages so I can deal with it.
Thank you!
I'll see if I can get a NS version up this weekend.
Dunno what the comet cursor thing was - I *always* surf with java and javascript COMPLETELY disabled at all times. When the page came up messed and I got a "plug-in" error, I viewed the page source and said, "hosts file" ...
And you're right ... you DO get what you pay for ... the NASDAQ antigravity money is gone ...
Not having JavaScript probably means you miss quite a deal on the Internet. My JavaScripts are all just timers, randomizers, etc., and should not be doing any harm to any computer that visits my site. If such a thing is happening, please let me know (preferibly by e-mail).
I use IE 6.0.
Peace,
ANDEE
Interesting. I wonder what the problem is. If you try again and it persists, please e-mail me privately.
I'm using Win 98 and IE 6.0, it worked find for me--great pics, btw-- sometimes things just go like that, c'mon it's Window :)
Some of us use Macs and Linux ... Billy does NOT own the world, Enron does ... Billy gotta wait. :)
Billy has to wait - untill the Enron liquidation sales start and then he'll pick it all up cheap. Right?
-Robert King
Microsoft gas version 2.1 sure does have a ring to it, eh? Fill up a tankful and watch your car burst into flames. Brings new meaning to the term "crash" ... :)
Do I need to upgrade the fuel injectors on my car now?
When the preview ads for Windows XP (eXtra Problems) that had the guy piloting a desk over a desert were being shown on TV I always had to ask whatever happened when they got to the 'crash' part if they're going to accurately portray Windows.
-Robert King
I saw it on the cutting room floor. "Beep beep! WHAM." (character holds up placard saying "Help!") fade to black ...
Personally, I had visions of a huge brick wall suddenly rising out of the desert and the desk slamming into it. In the next scene the rescue team stepping over the fragments of shattered hard drive platters, prying apart the mangled deskchair, imploded computer monitor, and the desk from which the mouse dangles by its cord, gently swinging in the wind. Wow, the lowly computer crash goes from bland blue screens, silly little pictures of bombs or flashing guru meditations to being truly cinematic!
-Robert King
Yeah, when Windows dumps the pipe, it's a whole lot more spectacular than "kernel panic! PID 393 halted" ... and then Linux keeps running. Windows is an NTSB event. :)
We've had your typical windows crashes, severe windows crashes and even a few of the awsome jawdropping ones where it goes down so badly it takes several tries at rebooting before the computer starts up again - only for me to discover that I'll be spending the next two or three days doing a complete software rebuild from the ground up each time. NTSB being a little bit out of jurisdiction here, Transport Canada and the CRTC show up instead :) Anyways, this is getting a bit off topic...
Actually, that said, I should make a point of saying that I really hope the software and computing equipment in all the newest subway cars is many times much more reliable than Wintel stuff. I think I read somewhere that they were using 68030s and a Motorola supplied C++ language for embeded systems.
-Robert King
030's and 040's are QUITE reliable for transit use, they're used in many cars as well. Won't bother with the other off topic stuff, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that's where NYCTA went in the design.
As much as like dislike Microschlok, I'll give Billy credit for Windows 2000. I use it and I haven't restarted it for a month. I had Win ME before, and crappy OS crashed all the time. It eventually crashed for good. I'd use Linux, but it looks crazy to use, and I'm not that much into computers.
I had a spectacular Windows 2000 crash about two weeks ago. I put a CD in the CD ROm and it scanned for the autorun.inf file but the CD didn't have one - I know this because I designed the CD and I hate autoplay so I didn't put one in with a cutesy-stupid program to run. Anyways, just after it started scanning, every running program went down with the standard program failure notification untill it hit Windows Explorer and then it was all over.
It's about as good as NT4 and it works much more smoothly with the high speed internet access program we have to use but it does have to be restarted every few days (or when it bombs) to clear out memory fragmentation etc... I miss the good days of "Guru Meditation....(error message and # here).....Click left mouse button to reboot."
-Robert King
Despite the legitimate problems that the other Subtalkers had viewing the site, it worked and looked fine to me.
However, I thought the music was a little too "lively" for the subject.
But it's the thought that counts, WMATAGMOAGH!
There is a randomizer. I assume you got Yankee Doodle, which was put on for its patriotic theme, not its liveliness. For those of you who don't do web design, it is not easy to find MIDI files that both fit our needs and aren't illegal to use on our personal sites. To find those 3 files was quite a challenge and took quite some time.
Yes, I got Yankee Doodle. I just revisited and listened to much more subdued music.
Just noticed the script only works for IE 4.x or higher. I apologize for any inconvienence. Within a few minutes, a version for NS users will be available. Please click here to visit the site. Again, I do apologize for not seeing this problem earlier.
Heh. "Got Commemoration in Transit will load in [ empty ] seconds" that just sat there.
Let us know when you have an HTML page ...
CLick where it says GO EXPRESS.
I think you need to replace the timer with a straight HTML click here link.
-Robert King
Did that too. Please send your e-mail requests to me instead of posting them here. I am sure Dave really wants to hear each and every complaint about my site because I misjudged a few things.
Commemoration in Transit, a look at how transit properties publically commemorated the events of September 11, has been improved to make it easier and more pleasing to view. This is a slideshow showing how authorities commemorated those who lost their lives in the national tradgedy. An
example of such a commemoration would be the displaying "IN COMMEMORATION" message on the information signs on
the DC Metro on September 14.
To see Commemoration in Transit, click here or point your browsers to http://www.geocities.com/otpcommemoration/ (the link
will work even though Geocities doesn't allow remote loading, I have my ways). Links are available from the rest of my site, www.orenstransitpage.com, as well. For those of you who use Netscape, please make sure you view the Netscape version of the page. Also, for those of you who wish to not hear the background music, the Netscape version is "silent".
If you have a photo you wish to contribute, questions, or comments, please e-mail oren@orenstransitpage.com. You may also
use one of the customer service buttons located throughout the site.
I apologize for any inconvienences caused by the problems on the pages last night.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
Every trip I take to NYC never ceases to amaze me about how poor a shape the system is in. This is suposted to be the premier rapid transit system in the country and with a few exceptions, it is utter crap. On Wendsday all I wanted to do was take a little ride on the N from Pacific to 14th. I even got lucky and snagged an R40 Slant. As the train lurched forward like a drunk on payday we struggled to reach the standard NYCS crusing speed of 25 mph. This whiplash inducing ride ddin't last long as we soon hit a sharp curve. No timers needed here, the T/O slowed to about 7 mph for what was best described as "washboard track." You all know what a washboard is, well this was washboard. The train began to vibrate violently, sort of like the flat wheel from hell, and I was worried that the car was going to come off the track. After the shaking subsided I could hear it travel down the length of the train. So, was this an isolated incident? NO, it happened at least 4 more times at every curve between there and City Hall. Dirty stations, dank tunnels, slow trains and piss poor track, still, I got a railfan window and was ready to give the NYCS the benifit of the doubt. That was until I caught a PATH train at 14th St. The station was clean and the tunnels were considerably less dank. The trains had acceleration and quickly reached speeds of 30-45 mph. When we came to one of those tight PATH curves we took it at 25 mph and the ride was smooth as silk. There was only the slightest of squeals. What is the deal here? Can't the NYCS maintain its track to the same standards as such jerkwater transit systems as SEPTA, PATH, the Boston T and the Cleveland CTA? How can you people stand such a system on a day in day out basis?
I actually had a question that went with this. Was the line just poorly built or has it just been poorly maintained?
Are you sure it wasn't just that R40? I've been on some pretty bad R40s...
I certainly don't feel like everything is fine with the subways. I especially dislike the timers that are the result of the combination of a lawsuit mentality and a few bad apple T/Os. There have also been a lot of delays due to "police activity", probably not only more than in other systems but proportionately more. That's not the TA's fault, and in fact they do seem to be trying to reduce the delay caused by the white donut sugar powder alarms.
Even though the system is far from perfect, I generally feel very satisfied. Trains are usually decently spaced and usually not unduly delayed. I'd say 95% of my rides are satisfactory experiences.
In particular, I have had some very good N train rides from Astoria down to 14th and from 14th down to lower Manhattan. Well spaced trains (even if less frequent than I'd like), reaonably fast except for the worst curves, smooth, and short dwell times in the stations.
Let's see, you had one bad ride. And from that you draw universal conclusions.
He probably had a scardey cat T/O. I've had some pretty gutsy T/O's on the N line (on slant R40s) in the Dekalb-Lower Manhattan stretch.
If it's all the experience you have, you're kind of stuck using it aren't you?
-Robert King
It wasn't a bad ride, I found it quite enjoyable. I have had many NYCS rides and many non-NYCS rides and the NYCS by far has the slowest speed (system wide) and poorest indivudual track sections. Is the system simply old and falling appart, or is it a question of maintainence $$.
I don't know whether you know it or not, but in many sectors NYCS still means New York Central System. This was a railroad, and had no connection to the NY Subways.
I thought you might like to know that some people who read your posts may confuse the New York Central with the subways.
The New York Central's reporting marks were and are "NYC" so that is the only official alpha code.
Tools, lanterns, switchlocks, etc. which were stolen from the New York Central System in a long ago time are marked NYCS. These beloved artifacts are far nicer than those unfortunate pieces marked PRR and are almost as lucky as those marked DL&W. BTW, I looked all over eBay for locks marked LIAR and was only able to find locks which said LIRR.
I saw a railroad lantern on Ebay some time ago marked NYCS. The seller obviously didn't have a clue as to what the letters represented, and described it as being from the New York City Subway, and that it was a true artifact of the city's rapid transit system.
Do you suppose that Jersey Mike was the seller, and wrote that incorrect description because he just didn't know any better?
Do you suppose that Jersey Mike was the seller, and wrote that incorrect description because he just didn't know any better?
I doubt it... since JM is still a college student, chances are he doesn't have such a lantern; if he did, I doubt he'd be selling it, as frothy a foamer as he is :-)
(I've got a PRR lantern and also a PRR oil torch of the type used to keep switches from freezing. Neither are in the best of shape, but they make interesting conversation pieces.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
The LIAR runs into Pig Station in the City of Manor. It is also completely fictional.
Reporting marks are issued by the FRA (or the AAR) and are not open to interperation.
You would be real handy at a gasoline fire, all the foam you generate would extinguish the fire in a hurry.
>>>...all the foam you generate would extinguish the fire in a hurry. <<<
ROTHFLMAO
Peace,
ANDEE
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA writing a post about HOW he complains
Ain't that the truth?:-)
No, it's the STATE of Manor. The capital is Jonesburgh. It was briefly Majorgrad, but it's Jonesburgh again now.
Excellent point.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, as JM has demonstrated in past posts, he just has a bias against cities. Hence his report. I say, consider the source.
Peace,
ANDEE
On one hand, the NYCS deserves alot of credit for being able to handle 4,000,000 riders a day.
In some areas of track, speed limits are too cautious in my opinion. My real gripe with the TA is it's inability to effectively communicate with it's customers, and schedule trains to meet the needs of today's passenger.
dude, chill.
You rode through the slowest, tightest part of the BMT. The
curves there are down as low at 125'. It's just the way it was
built. The BMT didn't have the advantage of eminent domain that
the IND used to avoid unpleasant geometry.
Track maintenance is fine. Tie condition and gauge is
a lot better than the class 3 requirements that the FRA would
impose for that operating speed. The 33rd St division of
the PATH system is just as tight and slow, there's even a signal
at one of the interlockings that requires the train to pull up
to it and count to ten before it clears.
There are problems with the NYCTS, but you're not even close.
I was riding the 33rd St. Division of PATH, it was completely smooth. Someone is doing something different here.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
You would have saved yourself about 10 - 15 minutes going over the bridge. Trains going through the tunnel were always notoriously slow.
I'd say it's more of a 5 minute difference at most.
I wanted to see Courtlandt St. and there was a Slant 40 N sitting in the station.
there's even a signal at one of the interlockings that requires the train to pull up to it and count to ten before it clears.
Are you referring to the one in Tunnel D / Caisson 1 lower? That area has had a huge water problem for a very long time. I don't see them doing anything about it (of course, it's underneath the Holland Tunnel, so it isn't a simple matter of digging it out and waterproofing it). But they have postponed rail replacement there, yet again (two sets of replacement rails were delivered and rusted out before they were installed).
My guess is that the full stop there is due to the ongoing water problem. In any event, McAdoo is surely turning over in his grave over the indignity of subjecting his line to this full stop...
Honestly I don't recall the exact location. When I asked a PATH
engineer (who sometimes posts here) about it, he said that
"the FRA made them do that".
Hmmm. The only full stop I know of (other than signals red due to occupied blocks) is the one I mentioned. If the FRA made 'em do it, it is odd that only this one is like that but none of the matching signals in the other junctions behaves that way.
First of all, mike, the New York City Subways are referred to as NYCT and not NYCS. Secondly, the NYCT system was rated as the best Large Transit system for the year 2001 by APTA. I suppose it was a simple oversight that APTA did not seek your opinion before they made the award. Finally, the R-40 is limited to a minimum curve radii of 125'. In that area, some of the curves are in the 145' radius range so the car is working very close to its operational envelope. By comparison, the Path cars can operate on a 90' radius curve so a path car on a similar curve may perform better. Perhaps you should stop trying to put everything into the same box. Not everything fits.
How does New York City Subway turn into NYCT? There is no T in subway. New York City Transit includes Busses. How do I refer to the set of subset of NYCT that only includes the subway?
What a schmeckel! If you ever met GOD, you'd enter into an argument
that G-O-D is not the proper friggin reporting mark. Jeez, what
is your major, masturbational philosophy?
Look, all these people who work for NYCT are telling you that
it is called NYCT and it has never been called NYCS {although
was NYCTS in the 1940s}. I guess they're all wet. I hope their
pension isn't affected, having been working for the wrong agency
all this time.
Geez, give the guy a ride in the gate car with Dougie ... he'll get to MEET God. :)
I am now rolling on the floor and am seriously laughing my ass off. What is that guy's problem (lack of maturity)? If he just wants to refer to the Subways in general, since NYCT is not in his vocabulary, might I suggest the Department of Subways?
-Stef
Nah ... *DOS* would offend us computer geeks and we can stop a 142 cold if we get cheesed. Don't go there, Bronx boy. :)
What? C'mon! Dos is still old reliable.... Can't we keep it simple???
-Stef
These is modern times, brother ... time to XPee on the third rail. Oh wait, wrong board. :)
Old reliable? Nah.
I still like VMS
Now now ... we all know MULTICS is what makes it go. :)
The one thing I'll credit Dos with is that it doesn't try to multitask or tie up the whole computer. Wait, this is a good thing when you're trying to write fast assembly language routines and need to directly access the hardware which will tip off just about any other OS and result in system crashes in various degrees of severity.
mov ax,1
int 0x033
-Robert King
Not MVS? :)
--Mark
Ever tried deleting one of those irritating 0kb files which certain programmes litter your disk with in Windiz? Can't be dun! Error messages until the cows come home! Won't even let you delete the directory. Yet, it's nothing 10 seconds of del and rmdir won't sort out!
I keep ggod ol' Norton File Manager for Windoze around for just that.
It doesn't care about zero byte files, dumping directories (or folders, as Billy wants now) renaming files, creating folders on the fly, moving stuff from drive to drive and 1001 other things.
It's the R-9 of file managers.
I've still kept around Norton Utilities 8.0 for DOS and WinDOZE (lol), with those amazing loopback plugs....it even diagnosed a bad COM port on one of my other computers the other day.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Do you remember back when Norton Untilities was PCTools from Central Point Software?
-Robert King
Still got'um ... and they STILL work!
I had PCTools 4.1 and 4.7, AND 7.0 for a long time, and then when I went to MS-DOS 6, PCTools got totally screwed up.......that's when I got NU 8.0 for Win 3.1/DOS 6.
ALL of these diagnostic/utilities programs that we've been mentioning most probably (99.99%) WILL NOT work under Windows XP/2000, because of it's NTFS and FAT32 structures.
Stuart, RLine86Man
We stopped screwing around and went back to Win95 here - everything else is WINE on Linux ... PCT works just fine in both realms. XPee is a bigger hosejob than Win98 first edition ... design philosophy inhouse is "if it ain't integrated, can't be penetrated" ... works fine for us. Can't fathom WHY an operating system has to have a movie player between the file system and the memory chocks. :)
I know...and half of the friends that I know that even have DeeVeeDee *lol* players can't use the "in-house" software because of an compatibility problem.
Stuart, RLine86Man
'nuff said ... maybe you oughta put them on that spammers' list of "copy ANY DVD" ... sheesh. Amazing though how nicely the Win95 drivers for all that works. Even BVE works a *LOT* better on Win95 than on MiniME or "second coming" ... and a train sim that goes whump-bump like a train of dead R10's ain't no fun. :)
*lmao* Nor does a full double-length Acela Express barrelling down the NEC at 174 MPH on eMSssssTeeSsssss(using "explore route" :-D) when using WhenXPee(s) and the frame rate is <8 fps EVERY SINGLE SECOND OF THE HOUR AND 10 MINUTE RUN! (non-stop)
Stuart, RLine86Man
What is it with that list? I get at least 8 or more of those every time I check my email, whenever I can get into my email.
-Robert King
Forget the movie player, I thought XP had a built in movie editor! If it does, the guy I used to work for could make his life a lot easier by dumping about 85% of his existing equipment and buy a top notch PC with all the latest multimedia equipment in it and opt for Windows XP. That way, he'd be able to make his transit videos using a much more familiar - and 'easier' (at least for the completely computer illiterate) - system than the Amiga with the Video Toaster/Flyer and Kitchen Sync in it.
Also, interestingly enough, I was speaking to one of my friends the other day who picked up a used Pentium 120 based computer a while ago. He was commenting about how well the original version of Windows 95 ran on it. It's being used as an internet terminal so that his big PC doesn't need to be connected to the internet thus avoiding most of the associated security risks.
-Robert King
Heh. As a former broadcast engineer who knows what it takes, he'd be smartest to get an iMac like the REST of the video industry. XPee is a DOG ... it's too busy trying to contact the mothership in Redmond to do an insert edit anywhere near the edit point(s) ... and it's AWFUL for running train sims also. You should see how MSTS induces brain damage faster than you can say R9 breaker panel. :)
I thought that it would be simple enough to for him to learn how to use the equipment he bought to produce streetcar/subway/bus/train videos rather than go out and replace it all needlessly. But if it were to be replaced, you're right about the iMac - but for more reasons than you've stated. As I mentioned, this guy is largely computer illiterate and Macintoshes are very forgiving in this area, much more so than any of the alternatives.
I remember when I was working for Neilson and I was trying to train him on the Amiga which is almost as intuitive as a Macintosh (except that not all files have icons and then there's the CLI aka AmigaShell which he could avoid entirely anyways).
It was absolutely painful. I'd say "click on this..." and he'd ask "Left click or right click?", to which I'd reply "Left click unless you need to use the menus" as per the standard Amiga interface, and this went on each time I told him to click on something. Certainly one advantage of the iMac is that like all Macintoshes and Lisas, it only has one mouse button which immediately eliminates all the confusion surrounding that.
Next lesson for Ray: Drawer icons in Workbench are the same thing as folder icons in Windows. And "Guru Meditation" doesn't mean that the Amiga is deep in thought, contemplating gourmet cooking. It means something went very, very wrong with the computer. :)
-Robert King
Certainly one advantage of the iMac is that like all Macintoshes and Lisas, it only has one mouse button which immediately eliminates all the confusion surrounding that.
Hate to burst your bubble, but... while it may still come with a one-button mouse, most of us Mac users have Logitech three-button wheel mice now...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, but it still WORKS, right? :)
Absolutely!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To be completely honest, the only place I've seen third party mice and keyboards for Macintoshes is the Mac Warehouse catalogue. None of the people I know who have Macs have retrofitted them...
What do the other two buttons on the mouse do, or can they be configured to perform custom tasks?
-Robert King
Configurable. The biggest advantage is the scrolling wheel, which I use when editing documents and reading almost anything on the web, and the double-click effect that I get from depressing the wheel (that's programmable, you can set any one of a number of commands there). The right button has occasional uses in certain applications too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've set my mouse to do the same (with the Double click)....ergonomically better.....less strain on the index finger....especially for someone who was just diagnosed with CTS 6 months ago :(
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'd hafta agree with you there.........MSTS runs 5000000000000000% faster and smoother in MiniME than in XPee.......
Stuart, RLine86Man
P.S.: And this is from someone who's logged in around 1,100 hours on MSTS using both MiniME and XPee
Now the next thing I'm gonna want is a few NYCT routes for MSTS and possibly a few MNRR and LIRR routes.....
Stuart, RLine86 and JamaicaStation AND GrandCentralStationMan
It wasn't PCTools........PCTools was manufactured SEPERATELY (by the company you mentioned), but Norton Utilities, as far back as 1.0 was made by HIM (Peter Norton), and the next version I had was 8.0, and that was manufactured by Symantec with his "trademark" (and still is).
Stuart, RLine86Man
You're right. I got confused, I'm pretty sure that Symantec gobbled Central Point somewhere along the line and one of their other products reappeared as a later edition bearing the Symantec company name but I can't remember what it was.
We have still have PCTools 5.1 and it was very useful for file management and keeping our XT's hard drive defragmented. The encryption utility in there is still quite useful which is the only reason I keep it around, loaded on my computer.
-Robert King
You're absolutely right ... Symantec did INDEED "acquire" PC-Tools and CPS in order to clear the marketplace ... just like when NAI/McAfoo put Doctor Solomon out of his misery ... when you can't make a better mousetrap, a grenade is always a solution. :)
Oh, gawd......but you're right, too....NA bought out MackAfie (lol) just before version 4 came out into the market.......and I didn't know Simmanteck (intentional misspell) took over Central Point Softwear..........
Stuart, RLine86Man
Don't mind my attitudes here - I've been playing with computers LONGER than either Billy of Gates or Steve of Jobs - they're both several years younger than me and I was THERE when Billy came along to screw up the MITS Altair ... I'm a throwback to the days when the ONLY time you ever needed to reboot a computer was when the firetrucks left and the building had been pumped out or the power failure that lasted days was finally over. Worked many years as chief of a state agency's computer networks and thus have this obsession with security and "uptime" ... Billy makes crap even if it happens to work for the moment. :)
That people give him MORE money believing "this NEW version of Windows will be the one" only shows why lottery sales remain high and casinos make money too. Heh. But don't mind me, I'm a PROFESSIONAL cynic, kids don't try this at home!
I may not have been "around" when Billy boy started his evil empire, but I still do have 15 years of IBM-XT, etc. and newer hardware and software experience...and I'm currently the IT Manager for a large law firm in Midtown (NY)...a not so easy job.... *lol* (especially since all of the computers are about to run up their lease, all, except mine, which is the Network server, and is less than a month old :) )
Stuart, RLine86 and Internal human hard driveman *lol*
Law firms are REMARKABLY similar to state agencies which have more than their own share of "barristers" on premises ... so it's the old "You lost my document" game, eh? WordPervert with all the fixin's? My sympathies guy and I wasn't intending to rub anyone's nose ... I find most folks who are rabid Redmond foamers cut their teeth on Win98 and know *everything* and never saw earlier days when computers actually FUNCTIONED. :)
But yeah, you've obviously assumed the position in a real world of Microsquat. We were lucky - we originally had Novell servers and converted the agency over to Solaris and Linux ... since I left, they decided to go to NTee and now NOTHING works, they're too busy trying to FIND and remove viruses to get any work done. Heh.
I find most folks who are rabid Redmond foamers cut
their teeth on Win98 and know *everything* and never saw earlier days when computers actually FUNCTIONED. :)
I assume you're talking about the pro-Redmond foamers? I know a lot of vocal anti-Redmond foamers. The interesting thing is that most of these people I know (perhaps even all of them) own and use PCs with Windows of some sort as their primary computers. Offhand I can't even think of one does Macintosh; all the people who I use those are in the arts/media end of things and are hardly computer geeks.
WordPerfect 8 is actually quite good. I haven't had an opportunity to try out 9 yet but some computers at York U seem to have it. At least WP doesn't eat documents and then give them back with the layout substantially rearranged like Word does. Wonder if anybody bought FinalWriter 95?
-Robert King
We use WP 8 (and I use WP 9, and am working on acquiring WP 2002 for our eventual upgrade [out of my control, btw--I'd rather stick with Win98 than go up to XPee for all of the workstations] to XPee) and my network server is using XPee Professional, unfortunately......we're using NAV Corporate Edition with all of the fixins, but the client workstations don't recongize the "NAV server"......go figure *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
I remember hearing somewhere that the legal profession prefers WordPerfect to Word but I can't remember why offhand. So I'm not surprised to hear that you're using it since you're in a law firm... How do you like the XP blue and green jellybean interface?
-Robert King
One werd: UGH!
Yeah, we use WP for a multitude of reasons, one of which is that it's more compatible with WestMate (the "Westlaw" [www.westlaw.com] program rather than the internet) as far as emailing cases to other lawyers in the firm, etc., etc. That's the main reason that I know of...the lead partner doesn't want to go to Word, even though I've got 8 years of experience with that, and only about a year or so on WP.
Stuart, RLine86Man
We did several studies on Word vs. WordPervert for the state ... the answwer comes out the same EVERY time ... the WIGS like Word because it keeps you looking busy diddling this and that ... the SECRETARIES prefer WordPervert because it works and doesn't require so much futzing to get through a document. If you KNOW how to type, WordPervert is the way to go. If you prefer to screw around, Word's the answer ... no joke - each study always came to the same answers which is why the State and most courts and attorneys go with WordPervert ...
WordPerfect certainly is better for writing. Much less fiddling around with it since it rarely eats work and hands it back rearranged and you don't have to fight with it to get formatting and layout done. You also don't have to contend with being held up by waddling Einsteins or bent paperclips offering needless advice when you start it up either. If I'm going to be forced to watch a bent paperclip dance around the screen they could at least make it interesting and put the darn thing on the rack - that would fix the dancing bent paperclip pretty quick!
-Robert King
Now now ... be nice to "clippy" ... "clippy" got that way after an argument with an R9 and hasn't been the same since. :)
I know, I know, I decided put "clippy" out of his miserly by turning off the Intelligent Assistant (or whatever Microsoft calls it) entirely...
I feel so sorry for that poor R9 though...
:)
-Robert King
"Poor R9" didn't feel a thing ... in fact, you could subtly notice that its anticlimber raised a bit into a smirk after 12-9'ing "clippy" ...
So it was really a successful 'practice run' for Mr. R9 before taking on other, uh, 'projects'... >:)
-Robert King
In manufacturing, *NOTHING* passes the "train test" ...
*lmaorotf* and Einstein got that hairdo when he fell off da platform and came into contact with the third rail :-D (or was he pushed?! {Dang, I don't remember :-D})
I can't imagine what the dog assistant would do by the third rail - up with one of his hind legs and wheee? There was a thread about doing that on the third rail awhile ago wasn't there? Perhaps Einstein got the hairdo on that R160 mockup that has the Van de Graf generator instead of the plain old boring MG set. :)
-Robert King
I actually kinda like the cat one...it's soooo cute :-D *lol*
And yeah, there was a p-ssin' on the 3rd rail, like 500 post thread (it was one THICK thread of wool that one!!!!!!!!!!!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
The cat and the blob are my favourites, especially the cat which actually does visually act like a cat in some respects. They aren't outright annoying or silly like the others. If I remember from that thread correctly, it was discussed how cats succesfully evade the perils of the third rail too. On the other hand, the dancing paperclip is total fiction; the only time I've seen paperclips dance is in the presence of a strong magnet and we all know how well computers and strong magnets get along...
-Robert King
It's a subliminal message on how to fix ALL of your Windows problems. :)
>>> I remember hearing somewhere that the legal profession prefers WordPerfect to Word but I can't remember why offhand. <<<
To understand the preference for WordPerfect you have to go back to those prehistoric times before Windows, when no one was considered a real programer unless he could write Assembly and decipher scraps of machine code while troubleshooting.
Word processing in law firms was done on dedicated computers called "word processors" which ran with proprietary software and cost $8-10,000.00. Popular brands included Wang, Burroughs, Lanier, and Xerox. Some very small firms and sole practitioners who wanted to do more than just word processing opted for personal computers with a word processing program. In the beginning there was WordStar. It was a word processor which ran in 48k of RAM with overlays, under CP/M at a time when the maximum RAM in a computer was 64k and processor speeds of 2mhz were considered fast, mice were rodents to be kept out of the office, and a "letter quality" printer was a daisy wheel impact printer.
When IBM introduced the DOS based computer, and HP introduced the laser printer, the days of the dedicated word processors were numbered. WordStar published a DOS version of their program, but it was nothing but a translation of the old 48k program and did not take advantage of the mouse or the added memory capacity of the new machines. Like the dinosaurs who could not adapt, WordStar disappeared.
WordPerfect was the first word processing program written specifically for DOS and laser printers which took advantage of the additional RAM of DOS machines. The company offered free training to legal secretaries (and other users) and provided 24 hour free technical support via an 800 number. Therefore a legal secretary working at 1:00 A.M. to try to get an important pleading done could call to get help formatting it. Those tech reps were not just people reading canned answers from a monitor either. If a problem could not be solved immediately, it would be referred to a software engineer, and if necessary a software patch would be sent to the customer. Regular update patches were sent to all registered customers without charge. WordPerfect also developed a legal package which included a spell checker with legal terms and special things like the ability to easily prepare lined and numbered pleading paper, tables of contents and tables of authorities. WordPerfect successfully upgraded to a Windows edition.
Microsoft introduced Word later than WordPerfect, and therefore had quite a bit of catching up to do. Microsoft introduced the "Office Suite" bundling their word processor with a spreadsheet and data base program which could all interact. WordPerfect did not have the ability to do that. Instead, the company was sold to Corel, which bundled other programs with WordPerfect to make their own office suite. Those other programs do not work as well as their Microsoft counterparts. That and the belief by many that it is best to get the operating system and the application programs from the same source has caused Word to pass WordPerfect in total sales. Many senior legal secretaries in large older firms have remained loyal to WordPerfect because it was the first word processing program that did the job, and the company retains a great deal of good will even though it no longer provides the service it did when it was based in Utah. Newer law firms tend to use Word rather than WordPerfect.
Tom
Tom's the man :-D
I still remember using WP 5.0 when I was able to get it from my dad's office @ the MTA Legal Department (a LONG time ago)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Don't forget that Novell owned WordPerfect etc. for a short while before selling it off at a greatly reduced price to Corel.
We got WordPerfect 4.9 way back when (and we've been buying the reduced price upgrades since then) just because of its support for laser printers. Or first computer system was an XT clone system and a Hewlett Packard Laserjet Series 2 which is a tank of a printer. We still have the printer and it resides on my computers (the cable gets switched between the big Amiga and the PC [Pretty Crummy] as needed).
-Robert King
Yepper ... we're a LINUX house here with a mix of Win95 and Windows THREE POINT ONE on desktops - one person on Win98 who we taunt a lot and a couple of Mac heads ... WordPervert is the order of the day here and Star Office for those who *insist* on sending us unreadable files in Church of Redmond format which are rapidly converted to something useful. WIth Linux at the core of our system though, EVERY computer on the network has no troubles exchanging files and I don't have to sit and babysit servers.
Just for laughs, went and looked at our main Linux file server. Last time it was booted was January 12, 2000 ... maybe I'll shut it down and kick it back up for laughs and giggles. Nah. :)
Nuts, I should have figured on your using WP - I knew you were running some Linux which as far as 'brand name' word processors go means WordPerfect... We've been using WP ever since we bought the XT and I have no plans to change except for when I'm working on the Ami and it's FinalWriter 5 (the old Ami version of WordPerfect's pretty sorry but I do have it and occasionally use it for PC compatibility nonetheless).
About the server - nah, why bother taking down the network during the time it takes to restart?
-Robert King
It's true, if you can't outdo the competition you can always buy them, at least after giving them a very good run for their money first. It's quite like how the IND did it, when you look at it.
-Robert King
Yep ... but the purchase price is MUCH better if you screw with them before you eat them ... whoops ... IND once again. :)
I kept PCT 7.1 as long as I could for the same reason......and NU 8.0, too....for same reason.......but when I got Windows 95 in '96, none of it worked at all, and the only other program that DID work worked with some "restrictions" when it came to management....that's when I went to just the Win95 built-in crap......when Symantec came out with Norton Systemworks, I bought it right away, I hated the WinDOZE built in crap-ola.
Stuart, RLine86Man
When we got our first 'new' computer in late 1995, finally displacing the faithful XT at last, I discovered that I liked Windows Explorer even less than File Manager so I decided to bring over PCTools 5.1 so I got out and used the 3.5" disks that it came on (it came with both 3.5s and the 5.25s which were used on the XT) and discovered that it just didn't work. So we ended up tromping down to the local software shop and getting Norton Systemworks and the Windows 95 version of NAV as a package deal shortly after they came available. It was about that time that we got on the internet using the new computer and I found that there were other streetcar/subway people around.
-Robert King ("He's not looking at porn - he's looking at train pictures again!")
TRAIN porn ... :)
Or...he may think it's the Department Of Sanitation. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Look out ... somewhere down by the pier, Sanitation might very well have a GP-38 idling. :)
You guys are all too mudey for your own good. Mike has a point. It's like what we call the T in Boston. Is that subway, street cars, commuter rail, bus rapid transit, or buses?
I call actually call the agency "NYCTA". Am I wrong in G-O-D's eyes?
Yo HO, dewd! *YOU* are correct ... despite all the shell games, it's STILL NYCTA ... now STEP AWAY from the 142 or we'll have to ventilate your kidney. :)
Fine, I'll just say NYC Subway. Happy?
Look, all these people who work for NYCT are telling you that
it is called NYCT and it has never been called NYCS {although
was NYCTS in the 1940s}.
Isn't the new "public" name of NYCTA-Dept. of Subways "MTA New York City Subway?" That's what the logo on the cars reads.
NYCTA was replaced by MTA - New York City Transit. That's
purely a DBA. The NYCTA continues to exist for legal purposes.
I second that motion :-D. We do "outside counsel" personal injury work for NYCTA and (for legal purposes) the TBTA.
But our biggest case with NYCTA is U.S. v. New York City Transit Authority (I forgot the S.D.N.Y. [Southern District of New York {Federal Court}] Index #)---it's an asbestos abatement case regarding removal of "transite" from several stations on the M and (at that time D/Q) lines.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm aware that the legal names haven't changed. What the public sees on their rolling stock is "MTA New York City Subway," so it's understandable that one could call it "NYCS" (not to be confused with M - New York City Surface, of course).
What you see from them says NYCT vs. NYCTA, or as I say they no longer have any AUTHORITY ... in their name.
But "officially" I think they are still NYCTA even if it's not printed on anything.
Mr rt__:^)
Read my first response to this part of the thread........I explained it too
Sure, NYCT is not perfect. Far from it. And I am the first person to complain about it on this board. But looking at it from the numbers of people served, with the slow trains, and even if there are delays enroute, it is the most efficient, quickest and lowest cost mode of transportation in the area. Even with delays enroute, how often can people say that they are more than 10 minutes late to their destinations vs. the time needed when there are no delays at all?
I look at the bright side each and every day no matter how bad the system may appear. I have a new job and new work...every eight hour day is completed with satisfaction and I don't have to worry about the next morning. I am alive and well, just got a raise in salary, my pick was very good because I'm still M/F rdo S/S and some of my crew shifted over to 239/180 with me. I have new friends and can still be near them AND I'm not getting so dirty anymore. If you read my posts you know I'm frustrated that CED does not do as much as they can to MAKE TRAINS GO. I will always work, be eager to work and will NEVER do the 'TA Shuffle.' CI Peter is OnTheJuice
I have to agree. Sure the subway isn't perfect, but where else do you have so many routes, alot of which has express and local service (New York is not unique in local/express service, but most systems don't have that to the extent NY does, and alot just have local service) Also just look how far the system has come in the last 10-15 years. It was a disaster, and now the trains are much cleaner, and the stations too. The newest renovated stations are almost masterpices. Most have been redone very tastefully, while perserving, or in some cases starting from scratch on the mosaics (like Fulton on the JMZ) Along the Broadway line they have removed the "mistakes of the 70's" and are doing a hell of a job on the stations. Even there is a long way to go to make the system "perfect", if there is a such thing, but I think the subway is slowly becoming a class act!
New York is not unique in local/express service, but most systems don't have that to the extent NY does, and alot just have local service
It is one of the biggest problems in London that the District Line's deep level tracks were never built. Now there are 30tph between Gloucester Road and Tower Hill and not enough trains on any of the western branches. At least NYC got the 6th Av Express Tracks. Imagine it without those.
At least NYC got the 6th Av Express Tracks. Imagine it without those.
Don't have to ... they're out until 2004 :)
--Mark
Mike, come to London to see a real system :)
Simon
Swindon UK
He'd probably complain he couldn't get to North Weald any more. But you know what they say, don't look back in Ongar. ;-)
James
Birmingham, UK
I don't think our American hosts would understand that :)
Simon
Swindon UK
I don't think our American hosts would understand that :)
Au contraire. Better to look back in Ongar than Epping ... eh ???
[grin]
Simon, if he does, will you please keep him?
I did and ever since I have had this odd urge to mind gaps.
"I have had this odd urge to mind gaps."
Mike, between the ears?
One needs gaps between the ears, otherwise how would sound make it from the ears to the brain?
That gap between my ears allows a flashlight to shine unobstructed! Hoe else would I have become a Car Inspector? CI Peter
Hey buddy. You wanna try to keep up a system that is so big and so old. its 97 years old and i love the system. if you dont like it dont use it walk or drive.
That was until I caught a PATH train at 14th St. The station was clean and the tunnels were considerably less dank. The trains had acceleration and quickly reached speeds of 30-45 mph. When we came to one of those tight PATH curves we took it at 25 mph and the ride was smooth as silk. There was only the slightest of squeals. What is the deal here?
According to the National Transportation Database for the year 2000, the average speed for a NYCT train in revenue service was 18.5 mph. It was not the slowest in the country. That honor belongs to SEPTA at 18.4 mph. The PATH system operated at 18.8 mph average. With the average speed of all three systems being within ½ mph, I'd say it's a draw. Perhaps it's time to check your speed measurement methodology.
The average operating speed is calculated by taking the annual vehicle revenue miles and dividing it by the annual vehicle revenue hours.
Don't confuse jersey Mike with facts. His mind is made up.
And the PATH as that long uninterrupted run from Harrison to Journal Square, which in normal circumstances is done by at least 25% of all trains. NYCTA has long runs too, but as a far smaller percentage of all trains and runs.
A few days ago we were discussing operations on the BMT Culver Linen and Paul asked if I had some information about it. It took me some time to dig out and its not as complete as I would like it to be. The present Culver "elevated" structure was placed in service at 4am on March 16,1919. It was extended to Avenue X on May 10 and Coney Island on May 1,1920. This was not a new service it merely replaced the original surface line.
Prior to the openning of the Fourth Avenue Subway the prime access route to Manhttan for the Sea Bits, West End and Culver Lines was the Fifth Avenue El. When the Fourth Avenue Subway openned the Sea Bits and West End promptly started using it to reach Manhattan. The Culver stayed an el only operation having platform clearances for nine foot wide cars.
The Nassau Street Line openned on May 30,1931 between Chambers Street and Court Street . The platform nosings were removed so that 10 foot wide cars could run on the Culver Line.
Culver "subway" service operated from 7am to 7 pm Monday through Saturday. #5 Culver Locals ran between Chamers Street and Coney Island via tunnel. During the weekday am and pm rush and the Saturday am rush the #5 Culver Express ran between Chambers Street and Kings Highway. Trains ran express on Fourth Avenue and bypassed both Dekalb Avenue and Myrtle Avenue, they ran anti-clockwise through the Nassau Street Loop. They also ran non-stop in the direction of light traffic between 9 Avenue and Kings Highway although starting April 25,1934 they stopped at 18 Avenue.
Culver "el' service ran between Sands Street and Coney Island except during middays from September to June when they terminated at 9 Avenue.During rush hours these trains ran express between Atlantic Avenue and 36 Street on the Fith Avenue El stopping only at 9 Street.
The Fifth Avenue El was closed on June 1,1940 and Culver "subway " local service now ran between Chambers Street and Coney Island during non-rush hours. Culver Express service continued to run as described above. Culver "el" service continued to run during rush hours between 9 Avenue and Coney Island.
June 21,1952 was the last day of operation of the Saturday am Culver express and the el shuttles between 9 Avenue and Coney Island . On June 26,1952 the rush hour el shuttle were cut back to run between Kings Highway and Coney Island only. Due to this factor I would say that this was the last day of express operation on the Culver Line itself although the rush hours trains contiuned to run express on Fourth Avenue.
The last through Culver Line train to Coney Ilsand ran on October 29,1954 and Culver serivce was cut back to Ditmas Avenue. Culver shuttle would now run during weekday evening and midnights and all day Saturday and Sunday between 36 Street and Ditmas Avenue. Culver Local service would run weekday midday between Chambers Street and Ditmas Avenue via tunnel whlie rush hour express service continued as described above. Because of the difficulty in cutting trains at Ditmas Avenue after the am rush southbound six car tains terminated at 9 Avenue to be replaced by three car trains. This procedure was reversed before the pm rush.
May 28,1959 all Culver trains run between 9 Avenue and Ditmas Avenue.
May 10,1975 was the last day of the Culver Shuttle. The last train left 9 Avenue at 1154pm and Ditmas Avenue at 1206am on May 11,1975. It consisted of cars 8525-8524-8059-8058. I rode it the last day but did not stay around for the last run.
I culled this information from sevral different articles in the "The Bulletin" of the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association.
"BMT Service History, 1924-1949" by Mr Bernie Linder
"Broklyn Rapid Transit Service 1908-1948" by Mr Bernard Linder
"Culver Line Article, June 2000" by Mr Bernie Linder.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
The truly amazing thing is that the BMT managed to scrape together enough steel subway cars in 1931 to offer subway service via the Culver line at all during rush hours, albeit only to Kings Highway. The main reason for expressing the direction of light traffic was that the shortened run time freed up a set of equipment.
-- Ed Sachs
BMT types who wanted trains to run fast.
IRT types who used cattle prods to make the trains run *exatctly* on time.
Well. Let's legalize IND-types with cattle prods on the platforms. Us types.
Larry:
This is great stuff.
I'm thinking of doing my Master's Thesis in History on whether or not the Culver Line really spurned growth in my neighborhood, Gravesend, where I grew up.
Too many authors have made the statement in recent books that once the El was built, development automatically happened. I don't think that was the case with the neighborhoods on the tail end of the Culver, and your explanation of the service here supports it. The Culver line was basically just an EL service until 1934, even though it was completed in 1919.
My dad moved into Gravesend (1 block from the Ave U station) in 1944, and there were still farms and dirt roads. It wasn't until after the Second World War (1947, 1948) that development made the neighborhood the way it looks today. 1934 was the middle of the Great Depression, and no one was doing much development of any kind.
The way I would get started would be to somehow view passenger counts at the Ave U Culver Line station and see where the boom began. Does anyone think the the TA would keep records of BMT passenger counts?
Does anyone think the TA would keep records of BMT passenger counts? Well, maybe not the TA but yes, look at www.bmt-lines.com, you have fares collected station by station from 1927-28.
I have only one word for the site:
WOW!
I've enjoyed it, too.
BMT-Lines is a WONDERFUL place ... pity it's kinda been "frozen in time" for a while now with few additions or changes in the past year. But like Joekoerner, palter.org and a handful of others, there's some REALLY neat nostalgia out there which should be EXPANDED if folks were to do some digging and provide more "dirt" for these sites to ADD to their collections (naturally, nycsubway.org's library as well) ...
As those who lived in those times are starting to fade away, I hope that others are willing to come forward with their own stories like I've tried to do here along with others about how the subway WAS, dig out whatever they have, and help to place what once was as a comparison to what "is" so we can all evaluate the experience and have a taste for the Jurassic epoch of the subways.
As an old LUDDITE who didn't need steenking speedos or anything else besides the steel in my face and the SOUND of the train as to how I was doing on the timing, it'd be really neat if there were more evidence of how UNcomplicated the life of most train crews once was without the benefits of "technology." But I'm babbling here on a thought that didn't originate here. Don't mind me, 51st Birthday on the 15th, and have been WAY too busy to celebrate it. I always get a bit psychotic on my birthday ... this is it. :)
Anyhoo, BMT-Lines is a GREAT place. Just wish it had more over the time it's been there. Given how Brooklyn kids (I was from daBronx) seem to SERIOUSLY outnumber Bronx foamers, one would expect a lot more goodies would have been made available to the site host ... BMT is a wonder even if I'm from the Bronx and those damned islander WIMPS wouldn't set foot in daBronx for fear of wetting their pants, I guess. I'm ex-IRT, pro-IND ... whoops. :)
Are there sites like that for the IRT and the IND?
It seems as though nobody loved the IND, and the IRT was pretty much the same ... right here is pretty much it aside from a few inclusions at other sites. Palter.org has a good amount of IRT stuff though, including 3rd avenue el and more ...
I've wondered why I don't see more IRT stuff. I think it may be that all the existing IRT is from the Subway era. When the last piece of the 3rd Avenue L closed, there went the last pre-Contract 1 IRT. Al the Manhattan els are gone almost without a trace.
With the BMT there is more left to see from BRT days, despite huge losses post-Unification. Dare I say Brooklynites are more passionate?
Paul, your site is wonderful too. I don't know about Brooklynites being more passionate. I think just that the BMT had a lot more to offer and a lot more going for it than the other two (former) divisions did.
Yeah, that might be it ... I remember when I was a kid that the IRT was *despised* as being "rickety" and "filthy" ... I thought it was pretty neat but then kids and trains ... well ... the IND may have had "mood lighting" but compared to the IRT, it was a "real" railroad and fast as all getout ...
Didn't really discover the BMT until my teens and it came across to me as ANCIENT ... wouldn't have surprised me if MOSES used it (not Robert) ... heh. But yeah, Brooklynites at least had an amazingly varied railroad down yonder ... the IRT was elevateds and small stained holes in the ground, IND was BIG hole in the ground and the BMT had just about everything. I can see why it was the favorite division. :)
Didn't really discover the BMT until my teens and it came across to me as ANCIENT ... wouldn't have surprised me if MOSES used it (not Robert) ...
Legend has it that MOSES (not Ronert) did use the BRT to lead the Israelites out of the Lower East Side. ;-)
Now I suppose you'll say that's a lot of bull rush. (ouch!)
Legend has it that MOSES (not Ronert) did use the BRT to lead the Israelites out of the Lower East Side. ;-)
Did he part the East River, or did he simply take the el across the Brooklyn Bridge? hehe
Well ... maybe Moses got on the wrong train then ... he would have had to have taken the D since the BRT didn't serve the Concourse. :)
Paul: I thought that Moses didn't like trains. Thats why he built all those highways.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think he means biblical Moses, not Robert.
I'll have to agree. The BMT offers the best of both worlds: Elevated, subway, Just very interesting. However the Irt stations are very interesting also. Even the IND's stations are kind of cool in their own way.....Hell I love the whole subway.
Same here ... but ya gotta admit - if you're going to do a web site, the BMT gives you a LOT more to show. Grab an IND express stop and an IND local stop and you can pretty much just change the station signs and they all look the same. IRT's got a bit more variety, but none of the MAJOR variety exists any longer. What lovely steelwork there once was on the el platforms has been replaced with that stupid corrugated steel ... I could go on and on but the BMT definitely has the "variety advantage" nowadays, even with the Myrt gone and the Franklin redone.
The grandest el in the system is the West End line, over New Utrecht Ave and 86th St. Myrtle Ave is almost as good. The West End is not rickety and has full 600 foot trains. Myrtle is on the rusty side, and has shorter trains. In those times when the TA routes the M over the West End, you have the best of all possible rides, provided you have a railfan window.
I've already admitted my dream apartment is just off New Utrecht Avenue, where 13 Av crosses it. The storefront would house a railfan saloon.
My father's cousin lived just off of New Utrecht on 71st St. We visited him one evening in July of 1965 during our visit ro the city, and I couldn't help but hear trains rumbling by the whole time. It was all I could do to keep from wanting to go for a ride right then and there. Who knows? Maybe I could have seen or ridden on a Triplex had I gone.
Too bad the West End can not be four tracks as the Brighton is over Brighton Beach Avenue.
What saved a lot of the old BMT elevated lines was their integration with the BMT subway system. Most of the els in Manhattan were not rebuilt in this way, which meant that they were obsolete by WWII.
Paul: I think that its more a question of what was done by each company with the Dual Contracts. The IRT built its subway lines to supplement the existing el lines. The East and West Side IRT Mains complemented rather then replaced the existing 2nd,3rd,6th and 9th Avenue Els. In The Bronx they built more lines and extended the existing Suburban Railway. They also ventured into Queens and Brooklyn.
The BMT built its subway lines, i.e. Fourth Avenue, Broadway, Nassau Street and Centre Street to connect the already existing surface right-of-way lines and elevated lines to provide through service into Manhattan. Inadvertenly the Fourth Avenue subway did render the Fifth Avenue redundant. The BMT did as much as they could to bring the Fulton Street El up to subway standards, witness the introduction of the C-Types and perforce the cutting back of the platforms and the plans for an Ashland Place Connection. The 14 Street Line did cut accross new territory but eventually connected up with the Canarsie Line.
The IRT did have some joint subway/el service in The Bronx and in Queens but by an large the two systems stayed separate. The BMT freely mixed subway and el services.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually, Selkirk, that was about the only thing bad about the BMT, that it never reached the Bronx before it officially went out of existence. But, at least the Brightliners of BMT trackage beat a path there with the marriage of the Brighton and Concourse lines in 1967. Could of done without your R1/9 IND rolling stock on BMT trackage, however.....
Heh. Some of us would have agreed ... I *loved* them old things. The 32's were cool and all as were the bingbongs, but well maintained (and there WERE a few) R1/9's could beat anything else on the road. Unfortunately, most of them were DOGS by the 70's ...
Except for R-6-2 1233. It and the train it was heading got up to 50-55 on the Union Turnpike-Parsons Blvd stretch in 1973. At least Wayne says the bull and pinion gears hit A-440, which is an all-out sprint in anybody's book.
Selkirk, many happy returns. I'm also 1951 vintage. May.
Thank ya! Advance wishes back at ya ... I outlived the redbirds! :)
Hey, I can make the same claim, being a 1956 relic myself.
Heh. I buried the 12's and the 17's. :)
Wait a minute. The R-12s arrived in 1948-49. They predated you.:-)
Technicality! Whoops. :)
April for me. Lived on the Culver line (Ave I/18 Av), but don't remember the BMT Culver pre-1954 (only 3 at the time). I do remember that the 1959 schematic map had express symbols for the Culver and was vague about where it actually went (other than Ditmas). I guess this reflects the end of the Nassau runs that probably were impending when the map was made.
I remember my first trip on the shuttle, though. The conductor used keys to open the doors. I thought the 9 Av station and the West End run west of there were the coolest things I ever saw in the system.
IIRC Bill "Newkirk" is also 1951 stock. That would make at least four of us.
We KiQ some butt! :)
On what line did the R12-22 last run and what were the car nos. on the last run of these equipment if anybody has records of it?
Amin: Hi, I can recall the last run of the R-12, 14 and 15's was in early 1983 on the 1,2,3, and occasionally 5 lines. For many years during the 70's, they ONLy ran on the 7 Av IRT lines and the SS South Ferry shuttle, but in '82-3, they were sprinkled onto the #5 also. That summer, R-62's arrived and the 2, 3, 4, and 5 lines switched Brooklyn terminals. The other cars, R-17-22 were phased out by 1988. After that, for a few months, I would see maybe 1 R-17 in a train on the #5 White Plains Road Rush Hour Express. That's my recollection. Tony Leong
The R-12s were gone in 1981 while the R-14s soldiered on until late 1984. I saw one or two of them during my October 1984 visit.
The R12's were retired in 1981. The R14 & R15's were retired in late 1984 as the first R62's appeared. These cars were always scattered among other cars, so they didn't just operate on "one" line at the end of their lives. The R21 & R22 ran until late 1987. I remember these cars in their last 2 years of service, almost exclusively running on the #3 & #5 lines. The R17 lasted into spring 1988. About 30 R17's were actually painted redbird red and ran on the #5 line until the very end.
Wasn't it 16 R17 that were repainted Redbird Red? Were did you hear about 30 repainted?
The way I understood it, the R-17s which were painted Redbird red were sent over to the 7 to fill in for the single unit R-33s while they were undergoing GOH.
Yup, then they ran on the TS shuttle until the R62A's took over in 1987.
A RUSSIAN RED ARMY SECRET MILITARY MAP OF NEW YORK is being offered on eBay, "was brought directly from Moscow, Russia, where is was purchased from the retired Red Army officer."
I think its kind of neat, what with such things as Tottenville and New York spelled with Cryllic characters, but I can't see what makes it "secret." The detail is several orders of magnitude less than the maps anyone can buy from the Geodetic Survey, or Hagstrom, for that matter.
OTOH, I would bid if I knew it was personally autographed by Boris and Natasha. :)
It's a "topographic military map", which probably means it had stuff like army base locations and other strategic info which wouldn't be on a Hagstrom.
Also, it seems to have info like population density (the red dots covering NYC), but I don't see how that would be useful to a general since they had nuclear missiles that could take out the entire city at the time.
Who said a war needed to go nuclear?
-Hank
If there had been a war, it would have gone nuclear because both countries (USSR and USA) could do so. Luckily, because both of us could start a nuclear war, neither did.
Looks like a map I can get in English from National Geographic Society here in Wash DC, or from the US Govt in Denver.
The buyer looks like s/he collects material from the cold war era.
So I look towards my fellow car inspector with respect inquiring if he has a problem I can assist with: 'Good Morning Komrad Kommander.' This always gets the Russkies attention....they 'don't need no stinkin map.' CI Peter
Are the sliding 68a due to a gap in the dynamic vs pnuematic?
Is it due to bad maintenace?
I am working in Train Dude land again and am looking to learn me sumtin.
Lately they have not slid except for one last week (that was horrible).
Just out of curiosity since I've never run a 68a, do you mean locked wheels when you say "sliding?" That wouldn't be too happy (clop clop clop) ...
No when you apply then release there feels like there is a longer delay before you can ask again. Depending how you do it it sometimes feels like you lost everything.
How do people deal? If you know the line you know where to take 50 and hold it. Some fan or flutter the brake constantly. Some incorporate it into their operation and slide in those last few feet.
Sliders keep us flat footers busy downstairs. CI Peter
Got it ... man, I been off the system WAY too long ... you ARE describing normal operation for an R9 ... especially the "whoops, let's feather it a bit or we're stopping short." Every run was like buying a lottery ticket those days. :)
The 68A's do not slide. Instead, the reaction is delayed from the time that you take the first brake to the time that it actually applies. Unless it's sliding at the end of the braking sequence, in which it might be the rails. Guessing on the last one there.
I've gotta work with the 68A's next week, and believe me, I'm not looking forward to it.
Z ... were you around back in the days of the R1/9's? (I'm figgering that you've been around long enough to at least see them in garbage scow duty) They were a world of "wait five seconds and see what happens" when you yanked a wrench ... your description suggests a nostalgia trip. :)
The only time that I remember seeing an R9 in service is when I was about 4 years old. For some reason, I still remember an R9 E train passing through Lexington Av. I was extended an invitation to operate an R9 up at Branford. I've always wanted to get the controls of an R9, all I have to do is find a way up there via public transport this summer.
We're hoping to get up there ourselves ... be happy to show you the cab there - used to do those in my sleep. Literally. Heh. When Nancy and I came to the city, we were fortunate enough to run into a switchman that was an alma mater of the "air only club" and we had a grand old time comapring notes. They're an ... interesting car. Old school ... pull and count, hope they grab. Maybe. :)
We'd be getting there from Smallbany across the Berkshire spur and down 91 (?) from Springfield or we'd offer to swing by and pick ya up. Hopefully we can work something out to meet up though - you'd love the old girl. Make you even appreciate a 68. Maybe. Heh. But the old girls had personality up the wazoo ... every consist would talk to you and no two the same ... one car by itself will be EASY ...
Yep, those oldtimers were living, breathing, snarling, hissing, throbbing monsters. And I loved 'em just the same. Moaning, groaning, and grunting notwithstanding.
Zman... this summer there will be another SubTalk Field Trip to Seashore in Maine, where we have two R9s (well, actually an R4 and R7A, #s 800 & 1440). I'm sure you can hook up with the group and join us, as there will be carpools from the NYC area. There's even some talk of doing AMTRAK via the Downeaster, in which case I'll pick everyone up in one of our buses.
A number of SubTalkers have in the past had the opportunity to run our "A Train," and I look forward to having more join in the fun this year!
Prospective dates will be announced later this spring...
30 plus days notice, Please. I'd love to go, but weekends I just don't have.
I expect that our colleague Thurston (mr. t) will do the organization again this year he did a great job last time! My guess is it will be in July, though there's plenty of time to figure that out. If people want to come up on a weekday this summer too, I can work that out as well.
Hey todd - have they fixed the overeager brake valve on those cars yet? :)
Premature dumping? Could have used one like that 30 years ago. :)
"they"?
Not sure. I haven't seen "they" in a while! But I'll check...
Have they fixed the dynamiting problem with the 800?
Not sure, EB, but I'll check on it. If not, perhaps next summer you and TTPFKAMR46 can come up and see what's up. I also have this Hi-V you should check out :-)
You still reemember his handle after all this time. He is on release so he can co-ordinate his vacation to coincide with mine and that will be a nice trip. Give me a shout the next time you are in the are. I owe you a cab ride.
Well if they didn't, maybe we could get "OnTheJuice Peter" to tag along to help. Either that or we fling him in the trunk of the car.
R9 work is GOOD work. Heh. But I think Unca Peter would be a bit lost without his radio key. Them magnet valves DID require Jesuits bearing ball peins. "Dude" was a former R-9 banger ... he can tell ya. If someone's willing to describe the details, there's every chance on the planet that i encountered it in the cab, gave the old toots and copped me "personalized RCI service" and sat and WATCHED what they phucked with so's I could do it too. Heh.
Back in my days in the Holy Ronan Empire, RCI's were WAY too busy to waste time on stupid stuck doors, leaky emergency valves and the like - to EARN the visitation of an RCI and to be sufficiently worthy of same, your train had to be pouring SMOKE from somewhere to be pushed up the "ABD list" and obtain the covetted the "get out of jail with your TMO free certificate that certified 'It's broke' card" ... you had to have pretty much rewinded the motors yourself trackside to impress an RCI in those days that you REALLY had a problem, and they'd write YOU up if there was a breaker that tripped on the #2 end that you missed in your "rush hour wayside checklist" ... heh.
So yeah, you can CQ DX Unca Peter, or you can have me along with my soldering gun and we'll see what we can cut out. :)
We'd have to tie him to the roof. I need the truck space for those fresh Maine Lobsters.
As a kid I always wanted to be a motorman and since I mostly rode R1-9's in those days they were the trains I always imagined driving. (I was already in my teens when the IND got the 32's, up till then there were only R19's & R10's on the IND) I finally got the chance this past fall at Branford during the Autumn in NY weekend. It was so great to finally have the chance. Especially since it was one of my first days off since 9/11. They gave members their choice of all their equipment that they were using that day including the Low-V and R17 but it was an easy decision!!! Although if they ever get their BMT Standard or the GM (Ralph Kramdem) bus running I'd love a chance driving one of them. I am probably going to sign up for the motorman's course there in March if I could get off from work
.Here is a picture of me and my son Arthur in the cab of the R-9:(I'm not sure if it will show due to angelfire's rules against remote loading)
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/branford/Motorman_s_cab.jpg
Just copy and paste the url to your address bar, hit enter and go. TAKE THAT, ANGELCAKE. Sarge, I hope you enjoyed youself in that R9, YOU CERTAINLY DESERVE TO.
I've always wanted to get the controls of an R9, all I have to do is find a way up there via public transport this summer.
Z- Shore Line is accessible by Metro North and CT Transit bus, but (assuming you aren't morally opposed to rubber tires) I'm sure you could hitch a ride up with a number of SubTalkers.
Thank you for the info RIPTA.
>>>>>>>>(assuming you aren't morally opposed to rubber tires)
Trust me, when it comes to out of the way areas, I have nooooooo objections to riding in a car as opposed to a train.
Hating to ask, but why worry about sliding 68A equipment if your heading to Train Dude land? All he has are R68 cars and they don't slide (most of the time).
The only thing that resembles the braking pattern of the R68A was something I experienced in the A Div. When they began to E-CAm the R62A cars on the 3 line, they would do a car and put it back into service. This would result in a 9 car consist with two different style brake packages. All of a sudden, guys with 25+ years were overrunning stations.
True had 6 train last night with 5 bad IC's.
I was waiting for a downtown #6 train at 51st street around midnight Friday night (early sat. morn.) for about 10 minutes, when an agent made the announcement that no trains were running. I dunno how long they were out. Anyone know what happened? -Nick
Hey Nick, #4 & #6 line ran on express from 125 st to 42 st this morning because of track work also there is no uptown express becasue of 86th st they are working on the station.
Peace
David J.
MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
ahh, ok. that explains why I saw an uptown 4 train passing thru (w/o stopping of course) on the local track! -Nick
No "of course" about it. Normally, when a GO sends express trains to the local track, they make local stops.
I am making O scale (1:48) model of a NYCTA subway station similar to the concrete ones on the Sea Beach route (N) for my O-Gauge model train layout that has NYCTA R42 subway train sets made by Mike's Train House (MTH). I checked out the pictures of the stations on the Sea Beach route on this web site and found out that they were ran-down with peeling paint. I know that subway stations usually have advertising on walls and they usually are mounted in frames that are either vertical or horizontal. Do anyone know the sizes of the advertising frames? Subway stations on the Sea Beach route usually have white station names on black rectangles with a white strip. Do anyone know the sizes of the station signs and sizes of letters on the signs? Jeffrey.
There are no advertising frames on any of the Sea Beach stations. Don't forget about the green mold on the walls :D
Yup, the green mold is what gives those stations their uniqueness. lol
I thought that the stations on the Sea Beach route have advertising. I thought that the 8th Avenue and maybe the Fort Hamilton Parkway stations have advertising but I don't remember. I almost broke my back painting the model of the station today. Jeffrey.
Why aren't passengers allowed to go through the middle doors of the R68s. For danger's sake?
yes
To expand on that answer, when a train of 75-foot cars (like the R-68) goes around a curve, a "scissors effect" is created, in which the car ends separate from each other. A person crossing between 75-foot cars on a curve stands a good chance of falling off and being crushed between the cars. Therefore, the doors are kept locked. This is the case on all 75-foot NYC Transit cars (all of which are BMT/IND), classes R-44 through R-68A.
David
Weren't the cars of the 44 and 46 class supposed to have an automatic door-locking device that would lock the doors only when trains took a curve?
That sounds right, but if it was installed it never worked right, and in any case it isn't there now. I know that the cars (R-46s at least) had an alarm that would sound if someone opened the door -- I heard it at least once, but that was before GOH.
David
I don't recall the circuit you are referring to nor can I find any reference to it. Doesn't mean it didn't exist, though. There was a 'zero speed' circuit that prevented the side door from being opened when the train was in motion or would not allow the brakes to be released until the doors were closed.
Was this circuit you describe original equipment or was it installed by the TA? Does the zero speed circuit exist today, in case somone with a key attempts to open the end doors while a train is in motion?
The circuitry, if i existed was part of the original ATO circuitry. It does not exist today and it is possible to open doors with the train in motion.
Or maybe it was in the original design plans, but not built in. I don't remember it in the pre-GOH days, at least in the 46 car class.
Now that I think about it, it may have been something the politicians asked for AFTER the cars came in. There was a great deal of screaming over the locked storm doors...guess they forgot about the Standards right away.
David
From UPTOWN DOWNTOWN by Stan Fischler (Hawthorn/Dutton 1976), pages 70-71:
"Not everyone was enthusiastic about the new rolling stock. One of the most vocal antagonists was Carol Greitzer, head of the City Council's Mass Transportation Committee. On December 4, 1975 Councilperson Greitzer charged that the city's new subway cars were 'unsafe, impractical and overly costly to maintain.' Ms Greitzer based her charges on a report by a consultant engineer, Dr. Martin Huss, professor of transportation engineering at the Polytechnic Institute of New York. Dr. Huss contended that a design problem in the electric circuitry of the cars could lead to fires and darkened cars and pointed out that there had been a number of fires in these cars while they were standing in the yards. He recommended several changes, including emergency brake-pull cords at each end of the cars; a fire extinguisher at each end of the cars; an automatic lock on end doors to function when trains took a curve (included in original plans but not built in), and installation of safety glass between cars."
David
"He recommended several changes, including emergency brake-pull cords at each end of the cars; a fire extinguisher at each end of the cars; an automatic lock on end doors to function when trains took a curve (included in original plans but not built in), and installation of safety glass between cars."
Very interesting! My interpretation of the end door lock question is that the consultant recommended that the electric lock release be negated when the cars were on a curve. The interior lock release was eliminated during GOH. The Emergency brake Valves at the #2 ends were finally installed in 1990 during the GOH. The fire extinguishers were removed completely although the R-68s have one in each car. There is safety glass installed at the end of every 75' car.
As for Carol Greitzer, is she still around?
Was the negating of the end door lock release solenoids a trainline feature, where if the first car of the train were negating the curve, the future cars would negate their release in anticipation of said curve, or was it a local feature, possibly trapping occupants already crossing between the cars while the cars was still on straight track?
I'd only be speculating since the circuitry was never adopted. I would guess it would be a local circuit dependent onthe position of the associated truck. However, I'd bet that only the interior unlock switch would be disabled - enabling anyone outside to get back inside.
Those interior door release switches were mostly plated over
long before GOH. There used to be a low-pitched alarm that
would come on if either the interior or exterior door release
switch was pulled. That seems to have disappeared during GOH.
You are correct although some of them were un-plated by the populace.
The safety glass I am sure was on original plans, the fire extinguishers were either never put in, or put in at the factory, then the TA removed them since many were being stolen off the cars.
That very well may be, since I could not find any mention of this auto-locking device anywhere. The screaming was done to add to the fire already burning about how these cars were having electrical fires in the yards, according to rumor.
Anyone know how the R is running today?? I heard it's running via the 63rd connector and making local stops in Queens. Can anyone confirm.
I was on the R yesterday. I saw no service diversion notices posted in the cars or the stations.
I was on the R yesterday. I saw no service diversion notices posted in the cars or the stations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just got back from running errands and working out at the gym. The GO was indeed in place. R runs to Manhattan via 63rd tunnel, no N/W via 60th tunnel.
As far as you not seeing any diversion posters in cars or stations, well, it happens all the time. At one point, the TA was on the ball when it came to publicizing service changes. But with the economic situation being what it is, I'm sure the posters and O/T for placing them was the first thing to be cut from the budget.
Rs that I passed today were indeed signed for 63rd St. The 60 St tube is closed - N terminates at 57/7, Q at Times Square; N shuttle in Queens
The N was supposed to run through to Lex (from the south). Was this changed?
In any case, the same GO is in effect for two more weekends.
I asked about the GO earlier because I told a friend from Manhattan that I would meet her at Steinway today for a workout, and wanted to be sure that my directions, "take the R at 63/Lex to Steinway" were correct.
On the way home, we re-entered the system using the entrance where there is no token booth clerk. There were two guys standing in front of the entrance. They had about 100 metrocards in their hands and were sliding them to see if they had any balance left. They were intimidating characters. Looked like members of the Bloods or Crips. At first, when my friend and I first got down the stairs, we thought we would be mugged for sure. It was just us, and the two shady characters who had nothing better to do then hang around an unstaffed subway entrance.
I use this particular station entrance on a weekly basis, and can honestly tell you all that undesirables like the two kids I saw today are always there. Always! Why? Well, it's a great place to hang out. It's underground, and there is no token booth clerk to call the cops. There is a metrocard machine in the middle of the underpass as well. Great place to mug someone. An unsuspecting passenger can take out his wallet to buy a metrocard, and get robbed in the process.
We went downstairs and waited for a s/b R. A G came first. Just after that, I heard a commotion upstairs. Someone confronted the two undesirable looking characters because they were checking metrocards and wouldn't let people through. An R came shortly thereafter, so I don't know how this ended up. But the handwriting is on the wall. NYC needs 24 hour token booths. Period!
Those Queens BLvd local stations can feel real creepy alot of the time.
This is exactly the reason why the station agents are needed 24/7 at all entrances to the system. Are the station agents armed? Of course not, but just a set of eyes which has access to a telephone goes a long way toward customer safety and the perception of it. Of course, whenever this is said by someone like me, a TWU member, an anti-union cynical person will say I am just out to featherbed and give people a job who don't need one and are not productive.
Thank you Bill! We are the eyes and ears of the system, if we see people loitering or selling swipes we do call for police.
If I were working at that entrance and saw that I;d be hitting my EBCS for police.
...just a set of eyes which has access to a telephone goes a long way toward customer safety and the perception of it.
That's because only station agents are endowed with eyes and the ability to use a telephone, that's above the ability of the average primates who ride the subway.
I know you dislike the human presence- I accept that point. Pay phones in the subway are often out of order and even vanadlized where the handstet(the thing you put next to youre ears and mouth) are stripped of their electronics or even completely removed.
Let's say we have special phones. Someone stabs you for your unlimited catd- are uyou going to try to find a phone or a special phone. The subway used to have special payphones that only connected to 911. They were all vandalized and finally removed. cameras can be spray painted. Sure they might in yuour dream world send soemone right away, but it might take an hour or so to get there and inthe meantime you are bacon unless you are suggesting a police escort for camera repairers.
If we see people loitering we can call police before they try to rob or hurt a customer.
I will leave you to your automated subway in no-problem fantasy world where there is no crime.
While I respect your opinion, many New Yorkers are in agreement that the booths with humans need to remain.
I hope you do not become bacon in your fantasy-land subway.
"If we see people loitering we can call police before they try to rob or hurt a customer"
The key word is CAN. It has been my experience that not all transit employees feel the same way you do. Many token booths clerks simply look the other way. It is a sad but true fact.
Vandal proof emergency call boxes similar to those installed at atlantic ave brightn station are more effective in helping a passanger in emergency situations. In addition the stations will not be unmaned. They wil continue to have routine police patrols and cctv cameras to identify the hot spots. Token booth clerks are usesless in helping riders on staions where fare control is not located on the same level as the platform (most stations in the system) Statistics show that a large majority of crime is committed by a small fraction of society. updating technology to quickly identify and aprehend criminals help further reduce crime.
"While I respect your opinion, many New Yorkers are in agreement that the booths with humans need to remain"
The scare tactics the union has used in attempting to block the first wave of token booth closing is a large reason for that belief. In the case of the first wave of booths, the entraces are empty most of the day. In addition if the rideing public is given the choice of having extra manned token booths vs a $2.50 fare, i belive thier opinion will change. If DC, PATH and other large metro transit system can oporate token booth clerk list, NYC transit can operate with fewer token booth clerks
Sometimes it is not that clerks "look the other way". They see alot of people that look suspicious and probably are going to do something. But they can't activate their alarms just because they "think" someone is about or going to do something.
Emergency call boxes and CCTV cameras are great weapons for FIGHTING crime. But it will not PREVENT crime. Have a gang seal the call boxes and/or knock the cameras out of position and they will have at least a few minutes to rob a customer. Even if someone calls 911, it will take a few minutes before police respond.
When people are jamming MVM machines to make some money or are selling swipes at the turnstiles and they see the clerk in the booth activating their alarms and talking on the phone, they know it will take police a few minutes to get there. They have time to walk and get away without being caught.
That is a sad but true fact!
wouldn't CCTV and emergency call boxes that alert an attendent at central cctv monitoring center not just at entry points but throughout the station complex including the platforms do the same or better job.
The cctv central monitoring center would be better equipt to flag out repeat offenders. In addition face reconition software can be used at selective locations to identify possible terrorists and other criminals on police most wanted lists. A simialr system is in use in London.
Is a system like this expensive.
NO!!!
As compared with the current cost of 24 hour token boths at all stations. ITS CHEAPER AND MORE EFFECTIVE
Quite frankly 24 hour token both clerks at all stations is just an expense that the riding public can no longer afford to pay.
The system had some special pay phones that took no money and only connected to 9-1-1. They qwere the most vandalized payphones in the system.CCTV cameras while they sound good,would be subnject to vandalism. I have worked in stations with CCTV. One night the screen went completely white--spray paint. I called the field office and spent five minutes trying to convince the supervisor on the phone that my camera was painted over. It took them an hour to send a supervisor who then called the field office and called a service person who took two hours to show up.
Let;s say we go CCTV and a mobile response team for camera maintenance- it would take time in traffic and while the maintenace team comes the punks can commit crimes, etc.
As far as alarm boxes, some stations have them now which connect to the booth. I always keep the receiver available and 99 of 100 calls are bogus or "I did not know what would happen if I pushed the button" sometimes the station has cameras trained on the callbox and I see people push the button and run. We can talk back to the caller- the boxes are called " Talk Back Boxes" and some stay on the line and respond with unrepeatable language or a tirade against transit. I have worked stations with elevators and kids asre always pushing the telephone button in the elevator which sets off a phone receiver in the booth and they reply with "I did not know what it would do" or "I pushed it by mistake."
let's say you are in an unmanned station and suffer a heart attack or someone stabs you- can you with your pain find a pay phone to call for help. Often times the booth is located at track level and we can see the platform and call for help.
The system had some special pay phones that took no money and only connected to 9-1-1
There is no need for that with regular pay phones and emergency call boxes (that don't have a handset and are difficult to vandalize).
I have worked in stations with CCTV. One night the screen went completely white--spray paint. I called the field office and spent five minutes trying to convince the supervisor on the phone that my camera was painted over. It took them an hour to send a supervisor who then called the field office and called a service person who took two hours to show up.
This doesn't mean the CCTV camera is a failure. If it was designed properly, a painted over camera would immediately summon the police and a repairer. The police should already have been roving nearby.
Let;s say we go CCTV and a mobile response team for camera maintenance- it would take time in traffic and while the maintenace team comes the punks can commit crimes, etc.
And I can assume that you would tackle the perps yourself?
Also, why does your station even have cameras? Is it because there are parts of the station not in view of the booths?
As far as alarm boxes, some stations have them now which connect to the booth. I always keep the receiver available and 99 of 100 calls are bogus or "I did not know what would happen if I pushed the button" sometimes the station has cameras trained on the callbox and I see people push the button and run. We can talk back to the caller- the boxes are called " Talk Back Boxes" and some stay on the line and respond with unrepeatable language or a tirade against transit. I have worked stations with elevators and kids asre always pushing the telephone button in the elevator which sets off a phone receiver in the booth and they reply with "I did not know what it would do" or "I pushed it by mistake."
What difference does it make if this person doesn't know what the button does, or if this person comes to the booth not knowing how to get somewhere? What's the difference between someone who makes a tirade against transit in person or through the intercom? If it's through the intercom, at least you can end the call. It's not like booth clerks aren't talking to people anyway.
let's say you are in an unmanned station and suffer a heart attack or someone stabs you- can you with your pain find a pay phone to call for help. Often times the booth is located at track level and we can see the platform and call for help.
The booth isn't always on track level, there might also be other people to initiate the call or people looking in through cameras.
The Broadway GO consists of:
R: Via 63rd Street in both directions from 57 St-7 Av to 36 St Queens.
N: Northbound service operates normal between 86 St Brooklyn and Lexington Av-59 St. Trains terminate in the station and then change direction. N shuttle service available between Queensboro Plaza and Ditmars Blvd.
Thanks.
You do realize that the TA posts upcoming GO's, don't you?
Here's the one you're looking for.
Here is one CONRAIL locomotive that I took myself at Metuchen station:
I took it last summer using a Kodak 200 speed film.
1) Can anyone tell me what locomotive that is?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
: )
Looks like an Angelfire locomotive.
Goodness. What do I have to go through to get a picture onto this site?
Use a web host that allows "off-site" linking to images.
Just post a link. Click the link and then hit refresh.
Number, Please
yes. if you post the loco's number, someone should know what type it is from that alone.
guessing from location, if it was metuchen on the NE Corridor, mighta been a GP38...
I know the loco #, but I'm keeping it a secret until I can post it here.
C'mon Pete, why don't you tell everyone that it is a Conrail loco, in blue with white lettering.
It looks to be a GM diesel, either GP or SD and carries the #2910!
2910 sounds like a GE
The picture is a left front view, and due to the late afternoon sun, what you can see of the long hood is mostly in shadow.
I am not up to date on diesels after GP-35 & SD-45, but I would swear that it has a GM nose. Considering the length of the shadow, I'll bet it is an SD model too.
It's a gp38-2 (mabe gp40, but i'd bet 80% on 38-2). NS/CSX renumbered all the ex CR units. old GE units did have thatn number slot 10-15 years back, U33b's, if i recall right...
Any idea of the CSX locomotive behind it?
Probably a re-liveried conrail unit of the same heritage
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks like a GP40.
Looks like an Angelfire locomotive. What kind of horsepower do those things generate?
You know, through all of this, SelkirkTMO hasn't been attracted yet. Is he away?
Could that be Norfolk Southern #2910, ex Conrail GP38?
From the numbers I would say it is a Conrail SAA locomotive.
I've been wondering about this, but why is there the word "QUALITY" after CONRAIL?
Also, on a keen observation one cloudy weekday afternoon, I saw a locomotive of a similar type but on the right were lots of white letters that stated "CONRAIL QUALITY: 25 YEARS OF SERVICE" something like that.
I had my camera with me, but I couldn't take a picture because it was in my case and I just arrived at the station with my bike.
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Pete, it was part of a Conrail campaign to impress on both employees and shippers that Conrail believed in quality service. I'll not offer any opinions (since I really don't have any) as to the validity of the claim.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
they did other paint jobs, like them labor/management logos on B-40s, 'ballast express' C-32s...
If i recally, quality was a buzzword of sorts for awhile. CSX renamed some trains Q-987 (or whatever number0 -with teh Q standing for quality.
The customers of the SUCCESSORS of Gonerail have finally come to realize that Conrail wasn't so bad after all. Now that the same scuttling looms in the cab window of Amtrak, can't wait to see the amount of nostalgic waxing yet to come when CSXTrain service gums up on the NEC. :)
For the past 6 months I've been given reasons why I,O and the most notorious letter in the english, spanish and French alphabet, the letter P. I have compiled a list of why these letters should be used in the subways:
I-The I is often mistaken for one because of it's vertical line. Let me try to clear that up. I consists of 4 L's sharing the same vertical line. 1 L on the bottom is correct, 2 mirror image L's one upside down and 1 original upside down L. Those L's create a 90 degree angle. 1 has 2 L's. One correct and 1 mirror image. Those make a 90 degree angle but only 2 90 degree angles. I makes 4 90 degree angles. I is also the same way in a mirror image and upside down.
Long into short if you don't know the difference between a 1 and I then you should be sent back to Kindergarden.
O-Mistaken for as 0. O 0.the O has a shorter circle then 0. 0 is larger if you see closely. And the MTA will not use 0 any time soon.
P-This letter has been the ass of sick immature jokes(I bet I'll see 1 joke about this by the time Daria's movie come out is it college yet). You should know this joke "Take a P across the platform against the wall". I have never heard anyone say "take a Q across the platform against the wall" and we will never hear that unless people from Alabamba or Kentucky moves into the subway. And proper english dshould make it "Take a P TRAIN across the platform.
I hope I cleared everything up for you guys and gals.
P is what you smell doing undercar. CI Peter
I wouldn't use "I" since it can be confused with the numeral 1. I wouldn't use "O" since it can be confused with the numeral 0. I might not use "P" becuase it might be a little ofeensive to some people.
#3 West End Jeff
If you confuse I with 1 or 0 with O unless reading from a R32 or R38 head sign or you have extremely poor vision you shouldn't make that mistake for a grown man! And If I wasn't mistaken there isn't any 0 on any a division trains.
I remember when they were choosing the letters. The particular problem with "P" was that locals at the time were still double letters. Get it?
lol..............funnier than taking the P near the wall.............
Not so funny if your servicing the electric portion (coupling) downstairs and your nose stuffed with steel dust detects that someone took a wizz over the anticlimbers. Whew!~! CI Peter
Probably like what the vestibules smelled like on the old LIRR diesels. I don't know if that was from someone relieving themselves in the vestibules, or from it "baking" on something from under the train where someone went.
Remember that old railroad car bathrooms used to empty directly onto the tracks. This was why there were signs near the commode asking you not to flush while you were in a station.
You remeber that for real (this must have been around 1960)? I imagine the letter would have been chosen for the Culver, which had just been reduced to a shuttle around that time. But the local (which ran via tunnel) could have just been "PT", just like the Brighton was "QT". Do you know if this may have been the case.
Everybody remember, San Francisco uses the letter on one of its lines.
Yes. This is what I was told when I was hanging around the TA (from 1957, when I was 11). That was before letters on the BMT. Before BMT Standards wree scrapped. Before Don Harold worked there!!!!!!!
IOW, when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
The Brighton Local was QT rather than QQ because it was in the unique position of being sometimes tunnel, sometimes bridge and they wanted a way to distinguish between the two. They didn't follow the logic for RR. Of course there was TT. Do you think a West End Local via bridge coulda been TB, which might have raised its own questions?
Trying to squeeze the BMT into letters made a mess of the whole system. I'm not convinced they won't go back to some kind of double letter routes, someday...
What about RJ around 1968 for 4 th Ave Local to Jamaica?
And don't forget about the short lived "NX".
See my post "Sea Beach Question: Express Tracks" from today.
Do you think a West End Local via bridge coulda been TB
Another bad mix would have been the V with the D. The VD train. Try to get someone to ride that.
I figured the letters may have been planned before 1960. In 1957, the Culver still had the weekday expresses via bridge and locals via tunnel to Cahmbers, even though they were only going to Ditmas. Do you remember what they would have called this? I am assuming that was what P was for, and it became a shuttle by the time the R27 signs were printed. Since the Culver used the loop, it too was sometimes bridge and sometimes tunnel (going in one way, returning the other), so I figured they might do something similar to what they did with the Q. Plus, it would avoid "PP". You can still make a bathroom joke out of "P" by itself, but as I said, it is used elsewhere, and it's the double one that would be too obvious.
I remember when they were choosing the letters. The particular problem with "P" was that locals at the time were still double letters. Get it?
Now, if there were triple letters, "P" wouldn't be so bad. But "K" wouldn't work at all.
Now, if there were triple letters, "P" wouldn't be so bad. But "K" wouldn't work at all.
That's right, nobody wants to be reminded of the Krusty Komedy Klassic, which was broadcast live from the Apollo theater.
I know, but "P" is so funny to use for jokes. Especially in NYC. any other city would be ok, but never in New York.
I'm sure the reason for that was fear of Howard Stern harping on it for two years. :)
Howard Stern would probably do a live remote broadcast from the "P-line."
K, T, U, X, and Y are still available letters for future routes (e.g., 2nd Ave.). The P may have been reserved for some special services, such as a nonstop express from Sutphin/Archer to mid-Manhattan via the J, Chrystie St connector, and Houston St. that would run a few trips in the event of an Amtrak strike causing Long Island RR to lose access to Penn Sta.
K, T, U, X, and Y are still available letters for future routes (e.g., 2nd Ave.).
And H alos. The Rockaway shuttle is just as dead as the K train, so I guess it could be used again. Actually the K was resurrected once already for 8th Avenue in the late 80's. Has any other line been ressurected to a NEW route after being "dead" for a while?
The H fits this category. It was the HH Court St. Shuttle till 1946, then resurrected in 1956 as the HH Rockaway Shuttle from Euclid Ave. to Rock Park/Far Rock.
Did they ever use a single "H"?
#3 West End Jeff
Rockaway Park Shuttle.
You're correct in that statement. Now that you mentioned it, one of my old subway maps shows that the Rockaway Park Shuttle was the "H" train.
#3 West End Jeff
I think the H ran to Roackaway Park in the mid to late 80's. It was discontinued when the C was extrended during the day to Roackaway Park. The few times I was on the H it was always R10's usually in the green paint scheme.
Roackaway? I have no idea how I did the same typo twice. Sorry, ROCKAWAY Park.......
If I'm not mistaken the "H" was often referred to as the Rockaway Round Robin. There is a portion of track at Hammel's Wye that it used which isn't presently being used in revenue service. If you were going from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park when they had "H" service it was possible to travel between these two points without having to go to Broad Channel though you could do it in only one direction. Now you must go to Broad Channel when you travel between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park becuase there is no more "H" service.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember the service you are referring to, but the H also just ran between Rockaway Park and Broad Channel, or maybe Euclid for a while,
It was an interesting service when it existed.
#3 West End Jeff
It was both. H was the Rockaway Park Shuttle (in its various forms) and still is for the purpose of the picks.
The H continued to run weekends (Euclid to Rock Park) and nights (Euclid or Broad Channel to Rock Park to Far Rock, round-robin) until Rockaways service was reorganized to its current arrangement in (IIRC) 1994.
That's true! I forgot about the HH Court st shuttle. The H could have it's 3rd incarnation.
H is still used for the picks for the Rockaway Park Shuttle.
Has any other line been ressurected to a NEW route after being "dead" for a while?
Well, the old West End Express line, via Broadway to Ditmars Blvd, which ran from 1961-67 over exactly the same route (and earlier before it was extended to Astoria) as the "T" train was recently resurected as the "W" train. I guess that "T" was too good for them in the 21st Century.
-- Ed Sachs
"I guess that "T" was too good for them in the 21st Century."
I've heard that the letter "T" has already been designated for the second avenue subway. Can anyone confirm this? I was thinking of this line as I walked through 86th and 2nd avenue last night, since 2nd avenue will be a semi-express, parallelling the Lexington Avenue express stops only. -Nick
Gee, about 20 years ago, "V" had been designated for the 2nd Ave. line. How times change ...
-- Ed Sachs
The QB evolved back to the Q, which it was to begin with in the pre 11/67 days.
Yea, but if they ever routed the P train via Sixth Ave., somebody waiting on the Eighth Ave. platform at West Fourth Street could be told "Take a P downstairs..."
I laways figured you could use one of those letters if they ever decided to give a letter or letters to SIR. Suppose, for instance, that they restored North Shore service. The current (east shore?) line would be (for arguments sake) the I and the north shore line would be the O.
:-) Andrew
And for the past 6 months I've read and agreed with why I,O and the most notorious letter in the english, spanish and French
alphabet, the letter P should not be used in the subways:
I-The I is often mistaken for one because of it's vertical line. Let me try to clear that up. I consists of 4 L's sharing the same
vertical line. 1 L on the bottom is correct, 2 mirror image L's one upside down and 1 original upside down L. Those L's create a
90 degree angle. 1 has 2 L's. One correct and 1 mirror image. Those make a 90 degree angle but only 2 90 degree angles. I
makes 4 90 degree angles. I is also the same way in a mirror image and upside down.
Long into short if you don't know the difference between a 1 and I then you should be sent back to Kindergarden.
You try reading those signs at 30 MPH. You can barely figure out the difference between C and E on the R32 bulkhead signs when they are stopped even. It would be too confusing for tourists.
O-Mistaken for as 0. O 0.the O has a shorter circle then 0. 0 is larger if you see closely. And the MTA will not use 0 any time
soon.
Read the reason for I.
P-This letter has been the ass of sick immature jokes(I bet I'll see 1 joke about this by the time Daria's movie come out is it
college yet). You should know this joke "Take a P across the platform against the wall". I have never heard anyone say "take a
Q across the platform against the wall" and we will never hear that unless people from Alabamba or Kentucky moves into the
subway. And proper english dshould make it "Take a P TRAIN across the platform.
It is natural instinct to say those things and whoever has to take that train will complain. Alot. It isn't worth it.
See why we can't use those letters?
whoever has to take that train will complain
Not if it takes you quickly to where you want to go.
People like to complain. I am someone will be offended and we will never hear the end of it from Gene and the Straphangers.
People like to complain. I am someone will be offended and we will never hear the end of it from Gene and the Straphangers.
Can't you tell people to naff off anyway and if they're that persistent lock them in a Redbird on the Queensboro Bridge or something!
First of all, Redbirds aren't bad, secondly, you just created more problems for yourself.
Okay a BMT Wooden Elevated Car.
How about having a letter (LAMBDA) line for the gays in the Village?
Nah, it'd cheese off the Turks. :)
I guess the Ë line would be in a pink triangle.
Otherwise the Lambda will appear like an E. The rest will still be in Latin.
Actually there was a "P Train" on paper at one time. In the event of a Amtrak Strike which would have prevented the LIRR from using Penn Station an alternate route was a special train from Stuphin-Archer stopping at 121st Street and then to 34th St/8th Ave via the J/Z Line to Manhattan and via the old Chrystie Street connection to the F Line to West 4th Street and then via 8th Ave Line to 34th Street/Penn Station. The plan was never put in to effect however.
I believe and I repeat I am not sure but the JFK Express which operated between 1978 and 1990 was designated as the I Train by the TA.
Thank You
O-Mistaken for as 0. O 0.the O has a shorter circle then 0. 0 is larger if you see closely. And the MTA will not use 0 any time
soon.
Even more than the mix up betwee 0 and O is that the O will also be confused with the Q
I suppose you could get away with an O train if it were a different colour and went nowhere near the Q.
No, you couldn't. Never underestimate the travel ability of a maliterate dumbass.
How can you confuse the O for the 0, when there is no 0 in existance anyway? It's a moot point; creating a 0 or O train shouldn't be a problem.
Also, you forgot to list one. There are any number of subtle reasons why the 'U' doesn't exist.
'Transfer here for the F and U trains'
Just to name one of the possibilities.
And if the K were brought back, there might be a staion where the K,C,U,F trains would all be identified on the same sign.
"And if the K were brought back, there might be a staion where the K,C,U,F trains would all be identified on the same sign."
LOL!! And you know either the person posting the stickers, or some other person will switch the letters around to have a sense of humor and post it in a certain way :-) -Nick
How about W8th St: F, Q. That sounds even worse!
Or the F and G.
The Felix Unger train!! HMAHHH!!! FMAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
We do have a 0 bus route in Denver. It runs along Broadway, which is the east-west dividing point in Denver's grid system. All of our bus routes are numbered acording to the grid system as much as possible.
1 and I will be on 2 different divisions. O will be the only one used because zero isn't on any existing rollsign. Unless you can't hold in the urge to burst out in laughter when a P train rolls into the station then I don't see a bad reason not to use those letters.
1.The 1 and I are 2 different division symbols. So unless there is some weird construction where the 1 can acomidate R32 or R38's that mistake won't be made.
2.0 will not be used since there are 94 other numbers to be used. And the O is also on a different division route.
3.The P is funny to a certain extent where even the most sensitive person won't be offended so unless you have some type of trauma from either urinating or the letter P(lmao) you shouldn't have problems more then a giggle or laughing like I am right now.
Ya know? You may have inadvertently solved the problem! In your formatting, referring to the zero train, you put it right behind a 2 and a dot, resulting in "2.0" ... this has possibilities since we're all rapidly getting conditioned to Billyware and AOL with such things as
Lex 2.0
and versioning numbers. Why not have a 7.55 train which is different from the 7.40 train? Or would we completely confuse the public with such things as an N-46.3 train? (Yeah, OK, some old lady in the 6th car is likely to blurt out "BINGO!" but besides that) ...
What's good for da busses might be good for da trains ...
Thank you for copying my words Al.
Well Paul with a P, before this turns into a family feud you said crap about 4 L's and 90 degree angles. I said crap about different divisions. I'm suprised anyone understood what you were saying.
Skipping I, O, 0, and such actually isnt' a new idea.
Jukeboxes from the pre electronic selector era skipped I on their keyboards, and I believe O, also.
It's easy to confuse these letters. I'm guessing also O being confused with Q is a possibility.
You'll note that the T/A hasn't used 8, yet. I'm guessing for the same reasons (it looks like B, kind of).
This is that subtle 'human engineering' that nobody does anymore - remember how old rotary phones had that little dot in the hole for each number? Bell labs came up with it - they found out that the dot reduced dialing errors and sped dialing up greatly.
Remember, not everyone in NY is fluent in english, or even our alphabet, it makes sense to keep it simple.
They have used 8 in the past. It was the 3rd Avenue Line in the Bronx. I see no potential problems with using an 8.
Never seen on signs though, it always read as shuttle, never as a number, even on the signs, it never mentioned 8.
IIRC, there have been maps and other things with it.
With out a doubt this has to be my most popular post since I came here. And in 12 minuites "On the Juice" gave us our first joke of the post. And the Daria movie doesnt come out for another 24 hours(on MTV).
Dearest Subtalkers,
I have been lurking and posting to this bulletin board ever since I "discovered" it, over three years ago. I have long been fascinated by the local history of the rails, and how it has shaped our region, particularly Long Island, where I grew up.
I am in Film school at the Tisch School of the Arts at NYU. A second semester Junior, it has come time for me to take an intermediate-level class, and I have chosen "Documentaty Workshop." I have decided to make my doc. about the Long Island Railroad, its history, and how it has impacted the development and current look and feel of Long Island (and the city).
I am beginning pre-production now. I am looking for any information that may help me prepare as thorough and true-to-history a documentary as possible. I hope to get it sold to a network like Metro TV or PBS, but that is a bit farther down the line. For now, I am just focusing on making the best documentary about the LIRR that I possibly can. (Have there ever been ANY doc's specifically about the LIRR on tv?)
I do claim to be a LIRR buff, but I know very well that a lot of you guys know a helluva lot more than I do. I'm reminded of that every time I read this board. And even though I am the one in film school, so it's "my documentary," I see it more as part of the historical record of a major piece of a lot of our lives, and it should belong to anyone who loves (and even hates) the LIRR.
That is why I open the door to any comments, suggestions, voulenteers, advice, wisdom, and any information that may help to point me in the right direction.
I'm not sure how board-worthy your responses will be, so use your judgement. I will both check responses to this thread, and my personal e-mail: Merelis@Juno.com
Thanks a lot!
-Andrew Merelis
Self won 1st Place at SUNY Purchase with:
"Evolution Underground: History of the NYC Subways"
(Dec. 2000)
Make sure you emphasize the importance of the PRR ownership in the devolopment of the LIRR as we all know it today. This came in the form of flying junctions, position light signals, grade seperation, electrifacation, cab signaling, etc. Also point out how the LIRR is sort of a museum of sorts. It still uses the PRR rulebook, signaling is mostly done through interlocking towers (w/ those classic Position Lights) and it is the oldest Railroad in the US still operating under is original chartered name. Of course I am sure you know all of this. I just saw a PBS documentary on the PRR and they completely left out all the advances the PRR made in signaling (electric lights and cab signals and "Trainphone" radios) and ignored all of the engineering feats save the horseshoe curve. I hope your film will not do the same. Have fun!
OH, PUHLLEEAZZEEE, the number of ZERO KILLS scored by LIRR CEO/WWII super ace Frank Gabreski would be more interesting than the involvement of the Substandard Railroad of the world, altho MP54s are COOL.
Don't forget how the PRR's typical footdragging also lead to the '50 accidents, and the the LIRR falling apart in the 60's.
By the 60's the PRR had no money. In the 50's the LIRR trains had continious cab signaling, which was more than could be said for the majority of commuter rail systems in the us at that time.
Yeah, and they had ASC because NY state and the feds forced them to install it. The PRR fought it kicking and screaming, just like they fought the Metroliners, ASC on their mainline, and dragged their asses on buying new commuter equipment after WWII. It's pretty funny how they couldn't understand why people were running from passengerand commuter rail, when the average car in service back then dated to World War One, had no HVAC, poor lighting, lousey suspension, and crap seating. And performed like crap.
Gee, a rotting MP-54 Vs a brand new Chevy with the bells and whistles. Hard choice.
I'd pick an MP54, you could put down the windows. I actually heard a remark to the same effect on my LIAR trip last week. Somone was bemoning the disappearance of the MP54's.
Gah, LIRR history is a big subject. If you want to focus only on modern times, start with 1900 and work onward. Cover grade crossing elimanation, and don't forget the 1950 wrecks, which forced the LIRR (and ultimately the PRR) to adopt ASC. Oh yes, also cover the 60's when the PRR let the railroad fall apart (and the PRR's motivations for buying the LIRR in the first place), and the NY state takeover and rebuild. M-1s up to the DE/DM fleet. Lots of unique equipment and stuff. Covering the LIRR's 'first's and it's impact on LI is also a must.
Bonus points for stock footage of MP-54s, the turbine experiments, DD-1s, early diesel power, and M-1s in testing.
There's a lot of ground to cover here, the LIRR has been the subject of a few multivolume books!
, the turbine experiments,
Turbine train locomotives ??? Do tell ....
Yes.....there are books out there that explain that time in history when the railroad sought out different types of fuel alternatives for the non-electricified sections of the railroad.
Yes a M-1 turbine / electric. I got the specs sitting here in my basement.
Phil Hom
Stafford VA
>>Turbine train locomotives ??? Do tell ....<<
Not turbine locomotives, but self propelled .gas turbine coaches.
The first experiment known to me was GT-1, the Budd built Silverliner looking coach that was self propelled. Not really an improvement of the old Budd RDC concept.There was operator equipment in both vestibules and small windshields. This single coach would run on lightly used diesel lines as an answer to running a large diesel engine and one or two coaches. The experiment failed, not sure exactly why. This was back in the mid 1960s.
The next experiment was the Gas Turbine/Electric MUs. Basically M-1 type "Metropolitan" cars were used for this fiasco, Four cars were built by Garrett Research and four by General Electric. Not only did they look like M-1s, but were designed to MU with them. The idea was to have let's say a Babylon-Patchogue train starting at Penn Station. The first four cars were Gas Turbines, while the last six would be standard M-1s. The consist would make all stops in the electrified zone as electrics. At Babylon, the first for cars with turbines whining and taken off third rail power, would uncouple and make all the usual stops to Patchogue. The six car M-1s would discharge passengers as normal and layup in Babylon Yard.
It looked good on paper, but what they didn't figure on was refueling the Gas Turbine cars. Each individual cars fuel tank would have to be refueled with jet fuel (kerosene). This was time consuming because after one car was refueled, they would move up the consist and the next ocar was next. Also, there would now have to be two types of fuel at Dunton as opposed to one. Having to refuel one engine instead of separate coaches was better and the Gas Turbine experiment died for good. I don't know if the gas turbines operated like I described above, but did operate on the Oyster Bay Branch. A farewell fantrip with four Garrett Research car in 1977 was a fond memory. After that, the Garrett cars never ran to my knowledge, but the four G.E. cars were setup as straight electrics and ran on Metro North some time ago. All eight cars were scrapped several years ago. In case if you don't know this, underneath the "M" logo, wasn't Long Island or Central, but Metropolitan. The roll signs had designations for LIRR, even JFK Airport, pre-Metro North Harlem & Hudson Lines and west of the Hudson service from Hoboken to Port Jervis. The roll signs also had Albany, but I doubt they would have enough fuel to make it up there !
Bill "Newkirk"
I was witness to the scrapping of several of these cars, they were stored adjacent to the Sea Beach Line along with some retired LIRR coaches. I believe these cars were also capable of running on DC standalone. They had contact shoe beams and what looked like standard controller boxes underneath the cars. The Metropolitan labels were present there under the company logo. I don't think these were Metro North cars, most of them go to Croton on Hudson for disposition.
>>I don't think these were Metro North cars, most of them go to Croton on Hudson for disposition.<<
I heard that the GE cars that were running on Metro North were returned to the LIRR when they were through with them. I didn't hear of them being scrapped at MN.
Bill "Newkirk"
The cars I photographed were slated for Gershows via the Bay Ridge Line. I am looking for some pics to post up now.
>>The cars I photographed were slated for Gershows via the Bay Ridge Line. I am looking for some pics to post up now.<<
I also photographed those cars on the Bay Ridge Branch, right by the Sea Beach. One car was even coupled to a arch roof MP-54 !
Remember, there were two types of Gas Turbines, the GEs and the Garretts. The four GEs were the ones that went to Metro North to run as straight electrics. The Garretts pretty much sat at the back of Dunton car shop for years.
The way to tell them apart beside the car numbers is this:
GE - Turbine unit was behind engineers cab and was floor to ceiling. On the outside there was a large louvered door (for repair access) behind cab window.
Garrett - Turbine was mounted in ceiling opposite engineers cab and was a low ceiling hump inside ! It was padded, but low, no luggage rack in this area. On the outside behind the conductors window there was a grill above the windows on the curved corner of the roof. They were unique and unusal, but expensive and a flop !
Bill "Newkirk"
Did the GT-1 Silverliner carry any passengers? And which line did it operate on?
>>Did the GT-1 Silverliner carry any passengers? And which line did it operate on?<<
I would assume so, it would be beneficial to test it in service with passengers to see if the train keeps the schedule and not run behind it.
I saw a color photo of GT-1 on the old WYE track at Ronkonkoma. Could have been used on a Greenport "scoot", but don't forget, the Ronkonkoma Branch wasn't eletcrified back then.
Bill "Newkirk"
Some additional information: The GTE were never on the LIRR roster or leased by them. I believe that the USDOT retained ownership. The cars were placed in service in June 1976 and withdrawn November 1977.
I believe that the Garrett-built cars were 4001-4004 and the GE built ones were 4005-4008. 4005-4008 were converted to straight electrics and ran on the Metropolitan Region of Conrail. I'm not sure if they lasted till the start of MN. (1/1/83).
Larry,RedbirdR33
Do you have a date for the different GC elimination projects on the Babylon Line? What about the one at Hicksvile?
BTW footage of a DD1 w/ "Long Island" printed on the side would be super hot.
The Babylon line was in the early seventies. I got my license in '71 and remember driving past Merrick Station as a new driver and seeing the construction of the el. As part of the construction they moved to whole ROW over a bit with a new grade crossing and new station. If I remember correctly the station was w/o Merrick Av.
As far as Hicksville I don't have the dates but I remember as a little kid with my parents the crossings on 106 & 107 in Hicksville, probably the late 50's,early 60's.
By the way.
Valley- Lynbrook :1932-35
RVC: 1953
Mass: 1937?
Baldwin-Freeport:1958
Hicksville & Babylon:1964
Wantagh-Seaford:1967
Amityville-Lindenhurst:1972 or 3
Merrick-Bellmore: 1976 or 7
Mass. Pk: early 1980's
>>Mass: 1937?<<
Joe V, I believe the year was 1953 when the new station at Massapequa opened.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why didn't they just lower the road?
If you mean the cross streets, I don't know. Probably a lot more condemnation would have been involved.
In many places the railroad is only 100 feet or so north of Sunrise Highway -- a 6-lane highway parallel to the tracks. If the streets were made to go under the rails, they wouldn't be able to get back up to street level in time to cross Sunrise.
In many places the railroad is only 100 feet or so north of Sunrise Highway -- a 6-lane highway parallel to the tracks. If the streets were made to go under the rails, they wouldn't be able to get back up to street level in time to cross Sunrise.
How about under the Railroad AND THE SUNRISE. They would have killed two birds with one stone, grade crossing elimination and limited access highway for the Sunrise.
"How about under the Railroad AND THE SUNRISE. They would have killed two birds with one stone, grade crossing elimination and limited access highway for the Sunrise."
Coulda/woulda/shoulda. Unfortunately, the area around Sunrise (particularly on the south side of the road) had been so built up by that time that there wasn't the room to create the ramps that would have been needed for access.
CG
Don't forget that there were plans to build the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expressway. Former Governor Nelson Rockefeller had plans to build a bridge across Long Island Sound connecting Oyster Bay and (I think) Bridgeport.
Lowering Sunrise would probably conflict with the Expressway.
Michael
I would suspect that the high water table in the area might have made that impractical.
Yes, but where would I go to find that kind of footage? Does anyone on subtalk have random old home videos/films of the LIRR lying around?
-Andrew (The Film Student making the Doc.)
Your best bet is an NRHS meeting (or Meetings). I am sure that Chuchubob can fill you in on what chapter to attent (possibly even where they meet). I said the footage would be hot, not easy to obtain. If worse comes to worse you can do a pan and scan of a static photo. What medium are you using? 16? Super 8? Animorphic perhaps?
I'd suggest that the best bet would be the Long Island Sunrise Trail Chapter of the NRHS. They meet on the third Firday of each month at the Christ Episcopal Church, Carll Avenue and Prospect Street in Babylon at 8 PM. The most recent meeting was January 18th, this past weekend.
Yeah and that was a great meeting. It was a whole show on the subway and hidden areas of the subway.
Yours would probably be the first documentary on the LIRR. I don't think one has ever been made before. You should include all freight and passenger ROWS, both existing and closed ones. Also include the Ozone Park/Rockaway line and how it changed hands from the LIRR to the NYCT.
You do know that a film is very expensive and time consuming. Most of the Senoir films here are about 20 min long, take a year or more to do and cost over $10,000. Still, while we are sugesting things he might as well try to get in a shot from the railfan window of an M1.
Well, I'm in "NYU Film," but I would be making this Documentary, like most others nowadays, on Video. Most likely MiniDV, to be more specific. So instead of costing $10,000, it should only cost about $1,000, hopefully.
-Andrew Merelis
So much for anamorphic 16.
I hope he doesn't ride after Jersey Mike. Hundreds of gallons of foam will make the whole front half of that car unhabitable.
Consider joining the Sunrise Chapter of the NRHS. And once you do, seek out people like Ben Young and Gene Collora as experts in the field. People on this board know a tremendous amount about the LIRR. But, it would be hard to find anyone more knowledgeable than Ben and Gene. See this link for more information:
http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/nrhslist.html
Also check out www.lirrhistory.com---Bill Anderson;'s great site. Of course be aware of copyright laws before you use anything from the site that could be considered proprietary in nature.
Although this is definitely the best forum on transit in the NY area there is another forum which deals with the LIRR exclusively and you might find that forum helpful in supplementing this one. It is at http://www.railroad.net/forums/lirr
is it worth writing to MTA HQ and ask about the availability of stock "old" footage of the LIRR that they can supply to you?
--Mark
We live for the one....We die for the one...and we don't die stupid. CI Peter
You've been spraying contact cleaner and breathing, haven't you? Moo!
Only you my friend would know!!! It's 'Babylon 5' time tonight.
A healthy Lindros would really help the Rangers, though :-)
We are car inspectors....we live for the one, we die for the one and we don't die stupid... We walk in the dark places and make tactile inspections.. We learn to watch our backs......cuz Swami Taco Bell bin Smokey Joe will blow out your brains subbing a jumper for a bank of lightbulbs. CI Peter
First Sliders and now TA Rangers. Is this becomming some sort of Sci Fi Board?
On another note, my 8:20 NJT express to Trantor was 30 minutes late again. There was a signaling problem in the North River Gates. When the heck are they going to cough up the money for another set of stargates? Two is simply not enough.
You live for The One, you die for The One? Wait a minute,
I thought you were assigned to the 'east.
We don't die stupidly in the IRT 'A' division.
Watching that show last night, as the crew tried desperatly to keep that old warship in one piece, I immediatley thought of some poor E180th repair crew displaying similar valor every morning getting the rustbirds to run one more day.
I apologize for the delay, due to circumstances beyond my control, Chatham Square was delayed but is now open. Point your browsers to www.subtalklive.com to join in.
For a second, I thought you meant a subway station named Chatham Sq.
LOL
For those with the desire to ride the Sea Beach Express, Ws are scheduled to operate Northbound today and tomorrow. The GO was cancelled early when it started snowing, so it might not happen tomorrow.
This is the only posted GO for the W this past weekend: "Manhattan-bound trains skip Bay 50 St and 25 Av." Isn't it nice when the TA posts one GO and implements a different one?
Is the Sea Beach express track open again to revenue service or did trains use the local track?
On Saturday, we went up the express to 59 St. The snow storm (?) cancelled the GO and Sunday was normal. I expect that the GO will run either this weekend or next - they are replacing track panels on the yard leads and Bay 50 St.
Take a look at the next shipment of redbird to the bottom of the sea. This load was photogrpahed today at about 1130 hrs. http://www.nyrail.org/nyct/scrap/redbird-barge1.jpg.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
P.S. I just found out I was accepted to Brandeis University in Waltham MA (near Boston). Y'all can be expecting some more Boston rail on my website next semester.
Congratulations, Dan!!! I am very happy for you!!!
QSL that!~!!!! burning ice with high VSWR at 3885. Better than T/O the front end of the Kursk. CI Peter standing by
Congradulations!
:-) Andrew
Oh, and one more photo....
http://www.nyrail.org/nyct/scrap/redbird-barge2.jpg.
Enjoy...although rather sadly...
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Hey... I am enjoying... with no regrets :-)
Congrats on getting into Brandeis - one of the fellows who works for me graduated from there in 1980 and has always spoken quite highly of the place.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if that crane will go along and drop each bird with one big kersplash apiece.:-)
No Steve. It "walks the plank". The Bulldozer holds the sword.
I wonder if anyone hollers, "Redbird overboard!"
Better yet, as they do that, they probably play "Taps" or "Amazing Grace" *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
"Taps" will suffice. They can also cue up "Rusty the Redbird".
*lol* *playing "Taps" on Sax [I don't have the proper instrument to play it, so it'll be a little off-key :(])
Not necessarily.
AHRRR MATIES!! DA REDBIRDS ARE TO WALK DA PLANK!!! AHRRRRRRRRRRRRR! :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Put your Studies FIRST, Dan!!
Before you become the next (Dan)ica McKellar!!
Thx for the pic.
why couldnt they recycle the metal ??
I was at 207th for three days....everything is recycled BUT the carbody because of the asbestos abatement problem. CI Peter
thanks for the photos!
So how's the snow affecting things on NYCT? It aint much here in "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff, barely 2 inches, mostly light and moderate intensity. Sidestreets and sidewalks are of course snow covered (except for my walk of course, I'm the only one in town who shovels).
Correction, there is one more soul that does shovel the snow since my little dead end street on Daniel Place in Sea Cliff rarely gets plowed.
It snowed heavily for the past two hours and the plow has not come down Sea Cliff ave either.
This is the little village that could barely get the job done.
Probably like 4 inches out there now and I'm gonna shovel again, the snow will be ending soon. I guess the TA doesn't really move trains underground with a snowfall like this, I think it has to be 6 inches or more.
I'm gonna have a TON of fun tomorrow when I take the N21 to the laundry, that bus stop will NOT be shoveled!
Yes, you are right about the street cleaning around the village of Sea Cliff. It moves quite slowly at times and does not seem to keep up with the snow. I'm not sure what laundromat you go to, but maybe using a small push cart you could get to the one at the CVS shopping center. It would probably be quicker than waitin for a bus that might never show up on time in this weather.
That's the one I go to with my cart sometimes, but it always has half of the machines "out of order", the one in Great Neck is much nicer, well Great Neck is much nicer! :-)
The North Shore acres section's roads are in much worse shape than Sea Cliff (I think NS acres is an Oyster Bay town plow job, they have the nice yellow streetlamps).
These yellow streetlamps are nice, I sure wish they'd use them in the subway tunnels. They are called low pressure sodium (LPS) lights.
Well, that seems sort of far to go to do laundry since Glen Cove is right next door and there are several laundromats there as well. That one that you go to in Great Neck near the train station was the only one in town and that was the one my mom used when we lived there years ago.
As far as the plowing goes here in Sea Cliff, only the main roads in town are plowed and the smaller ones, like Daniel Place, have to wait their turn, which means if there is a heavy storm, residents on my street have to fend for themselves.
A discussion on hauling laundry through the snow...yeah, that's a topic that belongs on a Subway BB...NOT!
I got 4 inches where I am in Hastings-on-Hudson by this morning when it was all over.
#3 West End Jeff
Seen today, R143 8149 at Rail Car Inc. Yonkers. .
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Note to Dave Pirmann: If you want to take this and the redbird barge photo and post it on this site, be my guest.
Hey, those things look good with rubber tires ;-)
It would look better with whitewalls !
Bill "Newkirk"
Are they going to Montreal, maybe? :)
KEWL! They're retrofitting the BUS fleet too! :)
slap on a trolley pole and you're set to go!
endgates & a RAILFAN WINDOW & U R all set ....ready 2 go !!!
lol!
Talbert Dollies. On Pearl Harbor day, 1993, I was underneath a Brill Combine with hydraulic jacks and blocking. An inch at a time we raised that carbody off it's trucks. when we got it high enough, a backhoe took away the trucks and shoved the dolly halves in, one half under each end, then the rear half was chained to the carbody (they have swivel bolsters) and finally running and brake lights were strung from the the tractor to the rear of the Brill The tractor was a Peterbilt with full rails, no fifth wheel, a H*U*G*E concrete weight on the back, and a pintle hook to couple to the front dolly. this vehicle combination was 15'1" high, and 105' from front bumper to coupler. As for weight, that carbody alone weighed evey ounce of 50 tons, add in the tractor and dolly, and I bet you were looking at 175,000 Lbs. (remember that concrete block)
Add a steering wheel and I'd drive it down the street. Available at your local Kawasaki dealer for $1.5 million. All the cargo and people space you need.
I am planning on going to the field trip that Thurston has organized for Monday. I was wondering, are there any people going that have some connections with the mta, that may permit us to do something special like a tour of the 180th street shop or some other neat thing unavailable to ordinary railfans? -Nick
As far as I know, this is only a tour of PUBLIC AREAS no access to TA property. Thurston is offline until Tuesday btw but will be there Monday.
Ok, thanks Lou. I sent Thurston an e-mail about tomorrow, but since I know what he looks like I'm sure I can spot him outside the GCT transit museum around noon. -Nick
He looks like this. (You'll have to figure out which one :-)
hehehe, thanks Todd! :-) -Nick
The one with the hoggy?? (Is that how you spell hero up there??)
I was still ON LINE getting my grub at that point.
It's "h-o-a-g-i-e". That's what we called them in Jersey. I can't speak for the rest of New England, but in Connecticut they were called grinders.
I can't speak for the rest of New England, but in Connecticut they were called grinders.
We call them gryndiz in RI, too. Have one with a cabinet.
Heck, around my house one of them is simply called a "snack". (Those of you who have met Anon_e_mouse Jr. will understand perfectly well.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is very clear to me now!
--Mark
That's us, just a couple of guys who enjoy riding the rails just for fun.
Sometimes you meet the nicest people, like the driver of that bus who shot the photo
Mr rt__:^)
if this happens. Search for "Queens West". The 7 too... one stop access to midtown... I might wanna live there. Can't be as expensive as Manhattan, except for the better views =P
Judging by the location of the site in this artists conception:
I'd say the people on the southern end of that complex, bordering Newtown Creek, are going ot have a lot of mass transit problems aside from the G train not running to Queens Plaza -- when you look at where the UN building lines up over in Manhattan, it's clear there's nothing close to that end, and on a snowy winter day communting across the river would be a royal pain (but it would make the costs less, that's for sure).
As far as your point goes, a heavy development like that might force the MTA to at least put six car G trains back in service, but unless the whole area between Court Square and Williamsburg just explodes in new consutrction, I can't see them extending the G back to where it was (though they could conceivably ramp the G up to the mezzanine level at Queens Plaza and put terminal tracks in there, with a crossover at the east end a la Flatbush-Nostrand on the 2/5 to allow transfers from the northbound G to the westbound E, V or R trains).
Looking at my Hagstrom's, it looks like the closest subway station is Vernon-Jackson on the 7, just one quick but crowded stop from GCT. The G at 21st St is actually a bit further away.
I agree that Veron-Jackson would be slightly closer, which would mean even more passengers for the Flushing line. And I doubt given the choice too many of them would choose the G, with it's one-stop-then-long-transfer to the E or V at Court Square, over the 7, with a direct trip into Manhattan.
Either would require a bit of a walk or a short bus ride to get to the riverfront development, which looks to be about the same distance from V-J as from the UN to the Grand Central enterance on the 7 just west of Third Ave.
And I doubt given the choice too many of them would choose the G, with it's one-stop-then-long-transfer to the E or V at Court Square, over the 7, with a direct trip into Manhattan.
Part of this development should be funding from the builders to help cover costs of extending the G to 63rd St Connection's unused bellmouths between 21st/Queensbridge and the mainline. This would create a 1-seat ride to Manhattan and alleviate overcrowding on the 7 if Queens West is built.
I know this idea has been hashed out before, but with this development, there could be more of a demand on the G.
Because the G tracks come into Queens Plaza over the E/F tracks and would also have to deal with the R tracks going to the 60th Street tunnel via the 11th street cut, that would take a bit of re-engineering of the area between Court Square and north of QP, where the line would meet the 63rd St. connector.
It's not impossible, but the G would probably have to swing to the east, towards the Sunnyside Yard, to get around all the connections into QP, then drop down and go below the IND tracks to hook up with the 63rd St. tunnel (which would require a flying junction for the Manhattan bound G track over the current tracks -- go under and you would plow into the LIRR tunnel).
Of course, that still leaves you trying to find a Manhattan terminus for the G even if you get it to 63rd St. -- Broadway local to Whitehall after the N goes back to the Manny B?
Um, send it from 63rd down 6th, and on to Brooklyn via Rutgers, to replace the F. And at Bergen St, you ask "Gee, which G is this G?".
The G would become a much more used line if it went to Manhattan. Even if the connection would sever the G's connection to Queens Blvd. I think more of the G's passengers would go to Manhattan than to Queens anyway. Passangers going to Queens would just transfer like they do now with the Gending at Court Square. It would not matter if the G could no longer access Queens Blvd.
How about building a 63rd St Line to the Hudson River?
You mean a crosstown 63rd Street Line? To do that, it would have to continue tunneling under Central Park and it would have to be built with long passegeways if we want to connect it with A, B, C, D, 1 and 2 trains. Currently, the 63rd Street line' Lexington Avenue station only has a MetroCard transfer to the N, R, W, 4, 5 and 6 trains at 59th Street. Which means if you want to transfer between the F and the 4, 5 or 6 trains you have to go up all those flights of stairs or escolators and then walk three blocks down Lex to the nearest entrance to the 4, 5 and 6.
How about this: Have the G turn south going towards 57th/7th. But have it turn west at 59th Street and continue towards the Hudson River under 59th. Then you can have a direct free transfer between the G and the A, B, C, D, 1 and 2 trains.
Of course, that still leaves you trying to find a Manhattan terminus for the G even if you get it to 63rd St. -- Broadway local to Whitehall after the N goes back to the Manny B?
No, the connection is to the express tracks. If the G turns into a local and one of the 60th Street lines turns into an express, the two will be crossing paths; that's not advisable.
If anything terminates at 57/7 (as the Q does now), the two could be merged. If this service started up today and the G were extended from Smith-9 to Stillwell, it would operate as a big loop from Stillwell to Stillwell (or to Brighton Beach). We'd have to find an alternate terminus for the other Q.
That would be a really long route -- about like the mythical Parsons-Jamiaca to Parsons-Jamaica via bridge/via tunnel route that has been talked about here in the past.
That would be a really long route -- about like the mythical Parsons-Jamiaca to Parsons-Jamaica via bridge/via tunnel route that has been talked about here in the past.
Longer, I think. And this would also be via bridge and tunnel!
This seems like a lot of costly work for something that wouldn't even increase service or bring service to any who don't get it.
:-) Andrew
A better plan is to send the line down 21st. from the 21st/van alst. stop. a new connection to the E/V can still be fashioned at 23rd st, and the line can merge to 63rd at it's present 21st street stop (level the housing project to fashion the junction, no one will miss that place). run another line up 21st, into con ed, west to laguardia, badda bing badda boom.
It sounds like a good plan. That new connection to the E/V would be a lot better than the present one at Court Square. Also the merge with the F at Queensbridge sounds good too, although where would the G go once it crosses into Manhattan?
NFC. down broadway? 6th? 2nd av (if it's ever build)? it would be one strange route, that's for sure.
Forget it. Just live with having to walk a little bit.
The Manhattanizing of Queens (or, perhaps better, the redevelopment of 'New East Midtown') procedes apace. The crush on the subways will just get worse.
The evolution of the politics of this will be interesting to watch. Us pro-subway types can piously oppose such development unless there a is concurrent increase in subway capacity.
I know that another luxury high rise apartment complex is due to open in Long Island City very soon. One already exists, and was recently featured in the New York Times. But I just don't see that area developing like many think it will. It's just not going to happen.
I remember the early 90's when Manhattanites tried to carve their own little niche in Long Island City around 45 Ave, just under the 7 line. In that area, you'll find about 3 or 4 blocks of mostly brownstone apartments. It was going to be the Park Slope of Queens, without the hassle of the F train. Now, a decade later, those transplanted Manhattanites are gone for the most part, replaced by immigrants from Mexico and Ecuador.
As far as the waterfront on the Queens side, it's still as dreary and desolate as it was when I used to use it's side streets as a lover's lane when I was in my early 20's. God, how can those people pay so much just to have a view of the UN? At the intersection of Vernon/Jackson, you'll find a little deli, dirty diner, and there is not one supermarket in the area. You have to drive all the way to PathMark on Northern Blvd.
Wanna take a walk on a nice summer's night? Yeah right. The streets are empty, except for a few factory workers on the night shift, and prostitutes who like to bring their customers to this area.
Want a late night snack? Sure. Just head on up to the Twin Donut at Queensboro Plaza, where the Crips and Bloods run their Queens operations(anyone remember a well-publicized story about a 12 year old hooker being pimped by the Bloods at QP recently).
Hate to break it to you, but the 'bad olde times' of LIC pretty much peaked a few years ago, and the rebound is slowly swinging back.
Vernon/jackson and the area around the 108 has at least 1 24hr. deli, if i recall right. the diner and pizza place are a bit better, and the vast majority of the prostitutes are held in check. You'll see them every now and again, but it's nowhere near like what it was. ther's a supermarket on 21st. (probably crappy, but as more residents come in i'm sure demand will spur a better one).
met life (or some other big company) just took over an old warehouse space and opened a big office at queens plaza, bringing more people and more money into that area. The highway dividers around the plaza also are being redone, with nice trees planted. there's still the strip clubs, but whatever.
'queens west' is just about finished with it's second building, and the lot for the 3rd (and maybe 4th) building is already cleared. the old LIRR float bridges have been cleaned up, cosmetically restored, and turned into what is probably one of the best little known parks in the city.
toss in that the whole area between sunnyside yards, to the water, south to the creek and north to the plaza was entirely rezoned last year to permit more resident/office use.
It's not gunna happen tomorrow, or the next day, but ever so slowly LIC is being 'manhattanized'. I've lived just a bit to the north in astoria my entire life, and I've watched it happen over the last 15 years, and I'll watch it over the next 15 years.
Prostitution is as present as ever in LIC. With the prostitutes, come gang members who act as pimps, and drug dealers as well. It's not going to go away just because two new luxury buildings are nearby. The prostitutes, and the gang members who hang out in LIC are still the dominant population of LIC by night. This has been well-documented in the media over the last year, and can be easily observed by driving through the area on almost any given night. Especially a Friday or Saturday.
Trust me, it was 10 times worse a few years back. Now it's nothing...
Hate LIC all you want, but it's going in the right direction.
I was born in Long Island City and lived there for 11 years as a kid. I went to the now defunct PS1 and remember those days fondly. I would love to see LIC come back, but I was very disappointed in what I saw of it the last time I was there in 1999. And the Queensbridge Apartments are still seedy as hell. I hope you are right because you are talking about my original stomping grounds.
My grandfather who is now 98 went to PS 1.
An agressive police presence and commercial investment can easily clean this area up. Heck, the East Village was just like this in the late 1970's/early 1980's. Look at it now.
If anything, I'd expect to see more ferry service and subway crowding. there was a ferry across from LIC to manhattan for awhile, but it only got a handful of LIRR riders. As more buildings are built (which they will be, and already are being...), the trains will get a bit more crowded, and fed up people will ask for the ferry back... just look at the ferries form NJ to lower manhattan- the business is booming there since the path train to WTC closed up (with the massive overcrowding on the other line)...
Unfortunately, the G does not run close enough to the waterfront development, or really go anywhere, that would make all that much of a difference. Maybe when more in-land development occurs, such as around the citicorp building or at 21st. , then more G service may be needed.
January 8, 2002
TUNNEL VISION
In the Secret Life of a Subway Chaplain, Heaven Was Subterranean
//sorry if this is a repost...
Thankyou for the post. It was sent to my minister...I don't have the email address of the NYCTA Safety Director to send it to because we all serve in the Diocese of Newark. If you come across a URL, let me know. CI Peter
I know this question must have been asked already a million times, but when does the engineer switch between the two power modes? Recently, while waiting for a train at the Mineola train station, I noticed an eastbound train as it was pulling into the station seemed to be running on the diesel mode instead of the electric mode. Is it more efficient to run it one mode more than the other?
>>Is it more efficient to run it one mode more than the other?<<
I am not sure of that question, but I have heard and was witness to the fact that the LIRR Dual Mode engines accelerate faster in electric mode than diesel.
Bill "Newkirk"
It takes a while for the diesel to rev up to speed, the 3rd rail current is always there at its peak amount. Second, the prime mover can only provide 3000hp. When you are pluged into the 3rd rail the limiting factor is the traction motors and electric motors can overload for a short time providing more than 3000hp. IMHO they should have provided the DM's w/ a traction motor potential of 4000 or 6000hp so that in electric territory they could have twice the power/aceleration. I'll bet the reason they do run the DM's in diesel is that they would suck all the juice out of the 3rd rail and either trip the substation or bring all other traffic on the line into a brownout.
So why don't they run the DM's electric all the way to the end of the 3rd rail lines instead of using it only in East River tunnels?
Kinda silly to spend all that $$ for dual mode trains that run in electric mode for only 5 minutes of the trip!
John, read the whole thread! CLICK HERE.
Well I gotta say that's a pretty big defect.
If the damn train can't run properly in electric mode (3rd rail gaps,etc) then they truly are a piece of junk.
It's not that it doesn't run "properly." It's to be fully expected.
Think about it for a moment: Subway trains have 600V pickups in every car (in fact, on each truck), so there is always juice flowing, allowing the motors to have constant power input. An LIRR train with one engine has only a pickup on one car -- itself -- and when the power is dropped, the motors lose their input. Going over a gap is like in car quickly taking your foot off the gas pedal and then stomping down again. Even if the train has two DMs (one at either end), the same thing will happen, as the power is not trainlined.
But if every car had 3rd rail shoes, this wouldn't happen. Of course if LIRR just electrified PJ,OB, and Patchogue we wouldn't have these problems.
But you can thank the NIMBY's for that.
They didn't have this problem back in the day with early PRR and NYC electrification (NYC especially). Don't think for a minute the NYC was giving a jerky ride. They were careful to eliminate possible gapping sites on the mainline and in complex areas the locos had little miniature pantographs that could connect to an overhead 3rd rail mounted above the track. The only places a DM would concievable gap is in and around Jamacia and Penn Station. Since they are electric in Penn they might as well run electric along the main line from Jamacia.
Take a look out the Railfan Window (yeah, Mike, while they're still there) and you'll see plenty of places where 3rd rail gaps occur on the LIRR. Harold interlocking comes to mind. As does Nassau. In fact, ride an M-1/3 and watch for The Blinking Lights, and that will show you where the gaps are.
I've asked this question several times and have never gotten a difinitive answer. While there is no consistent answer, it's clear that most engineers perfer to operate in the diesel most and switch soon after they clear the eastern portal of the river tubes.
That was the case with the FL9's also. Engineers usually do switch over to D mode outside of the tunnels because if the engine fails to switch over, they can notify the dispatcher or tower of it, and another standby engine can be taken out.
TD, I asked this of an LIRR engineer with whom I was riding last summer. He said that the primary reason is that when the train gaps (while in electric mode), it can give a jerky ride. So for comfort's sake, they are encouraged to run in diesel mode outside.
That's what I was told - also. There is just no concensus on where the engineers are required to switch,
I often wonder why the LIRR does not use what is left of the old Central ROW that went from the old Clinton Street to Bethpage. I know the ROW bascially ends at the Nassau Community College area, but it would be great if the electric service would be extended down to that end. Think about how maybe customers would be able to use such a ROW, from workers in that area, to NCC and Hostra students, to shoppers for Roosevelt Field Mall. But I guess the NIMBY's must have some say in the matter as usual. Maybe the new county exec, Tom Suozzi will have some input about bringing some positive transportation changes in Nassau.
Nassau County, the LIRR, NYS DOT are all aware of the Central Line. They won't even consider it. Don't want to deal with local opposition. Don't want to put anything in Eisenhwower Park. Don't have any interest.
Wher there's no will, there's no way.
If you want to make some noise about it, go to http://www.litp2000.com/html/team.html for ways to remark on current LI transportation plans.
You can also go to http://www.rethinklitp2000.com (the loyal opposition), and email them your concerns. Maybe you want to get involved.
Well, I am hoping with the new guy in Nassau County, Tom Suozzi, maybe he can convince those NIMBYs that transportation is key to Nassau's survival.
The previous guy, Tom Gulotta, had a plan for a LRV line to the Malls using what's left of the Central Branch in Nassau County.
The NIMBYs got to Gov. Pataki & got him to promise not to use the Central Branch, even for freight.
I think the new Tom, Suozzi, will be busy for a while just trying to make ends meet (income vs. expenses).
Mr rt__:^)
(Nassau County, the LIRR, NYS DOT are all aware of the Central Line. They won't even consider it. Don't want to deal with local opposition. Don't want to put anything in Eisenhwower Park. Don't have any interest.)
My father in law was a lineman for NY Telephone. While utilities have an easement on the line, he says that the actual land was sold off to adjacent landowners for extended backyards.
In order to recreate service, therefore, you'd have to reaquire all that land. That, I believe, is enough to kill the idea off once and for all.
Note that periodically people try to encroach on the Rockaway branch to make sure IT can never be reused either. That should be fought tooth and nail.
My father in law was a lineman for NY Telephone. While utilities have an easement on the line, he says that the actual land was sold off to adjacent landowners for extended backyards.
That's just what I was afraid of and didn't want to hear. Oh well there goes that idea.
My father in law was a lineman for NY Telephone. While utilities have an easement on the line, he says that the actual land was sold off to adjacent landowners for extended backyards.
I doubt that. For one thing, the right-of-way is used for high-tension electric. This is the kind of land they never want to sell off for residential land. Second, the MTA and its precedessors historically rarely sell off surplus property except under duress. Look at pieces of abandoned right-of-way that are still in LIRR/TA?etc. hands. And finally, I dounbt this is so because this argument was never brought up to me in discussion with NYS DOT and LIRR officials. If the land were sold off, I would expect them to have told me so, as that would have shut me up right there.
(Or at least quieted me down a bit).
I personally think that East Meadow and Levittown would be GREAT spots for Long Island Railroad stations. Not to mention Roosevelt Field and Garden City East (Clinton Road).
As for reusing the Central Branch, they would have to go underground from just west of the Meadowbrook Parkway to where it surfaces on the other side of Eisenhower Park. Full blown tunnel-boring job.
wayne
I agree that the Central line ought to be put back in some form. But the only thing Suozzi is going to be working at with any real impact is settling county budget problems. Even if he had the political backing to bring the Central branch back - he doesn't have the funding and state sources are already dried up.
>>I agree that the Central line ought to be put back in some form<<
I disagree. The Central Branch has the historical significance of building Levittown. That's how the building materials were shipped. But this was late 1940s surburbia with the dawning of the automobile and the death of the railroad.
First off, does LIPA want this ROW to reused for a railroad ?
Second, do the folks of Levittown (or NIMBYs) want to see restoration of commuter rail service, even if it benefits them ? Do visitors at Eisenhower Park want to see a railroad slicing through their bucolic park ? BTW, I was told years ago that there was an old stone culvert from the Central Branch still in the park, though I never searched for it.
The old Central Branch was single track and not electrified. Also there were no stations between Salisbury Plains and South Farmingdale because it was farm land. Where do we build stations and commuter parking ? There is no room for either. Speaking of no room, can Babylon accommodate more rail service with the Babylon and Central Branch through Hicksville?
Also restoration of rail service would mean grade crossings. Not a good idea. And where would all this money come from? The MTA/LIRR capital projects right now are consumed with East Side Access and Grand Central. That's enough bucks to raise a sweat.The answer to all these questions are either money or NIMBY or both.
Restore rail service to the LIRR Central Branch? Okay, then let's restore commuter rail service to the NYW&B. At least that will make Roger Arcara smile down from heaven !
Bill "Newkirk"
First off, does LIPA want this ROW to reused for a railroad ?
That's irrelevant. LILCO was allowed to use the right-of-way with the understanding rail service could be restored.
Second, do the folks of Levittown (or NIMBYs) want to see restoration of commuter rail service, even if it benefits them ? Do visitors at Eisenhower Park want to see a railroad slicing through their bucolic park ?
Noone ever wants anything near them. If that were the criterion, nothing would ever get built. The rail line could be rebuilt with minimal impact on the park, if they wished.
The old Central Branch was single track and not electrified. Also there were no stations between Salisbury Plains and South Farmingdale because it was farm land. Where do we build stations and commuter parking ? There is no room for either. Speaking of no room, can Babylon accommodate more rail service with the Babylon and Central Branch through Hicksville?
The main use of a revived Central Branch would be to provide 50% additional capacity to lines in Suffolk County, where the capacity is badly needed. There would be no necessity to build parking or stations where they're not wanted, but it would enable massive new parking and access on the former Grumman property.
Also restoration of rail service would mean grade crossings.
Certainly not. Building new would mean building any form of right-of-way they wanted. Open or covered cut would be most likely where streets were involved.
Not a good idea. And where would all this money come from? The MTA/LIRR capital projects right now are consumed with East Side Access and Grand Central. That's enough bucks to raise a sweat.The answer to all these questions are either money or NIMBY or both.
NYS DOT is about to embark on a massive road-building program that will gut the parkways and expand many other roads. They could find the money for Central if they wanted to. But they don't want, so that's that.
They should at least restore the line so that the Clinton Road station can be restored, one somewhere near the yard with a overhead walkway to Roosevelt Field Mall and last a station ending next to Endo Blvd, to serve students at NCC and Hostra University. I doubt going any further would be than that would help, but at least to Endo Blvd. it would help both student, faculty, commuters to the city, and shoppers.
There was serious consideration of different light rail and other guideway plans that would have provided much or all of what you are describing. Two years ago it seemed to be almost a certainty that something along that line would be included in the new Long Island Transportation Plan but when the plan emerged it had disappeared. Nassau's fiscal problems probably put the hex on it.
For the present, Nassau has to concentrate on keeping its extensive bus system going.
Yes, I agree that the LIBUS is also vitual to Nassau and that any cutbacks would be a danger to the county, but some consideration needs to be given to improving the overall transit system in Nassau to make it more appealing to local residents.
What ever happened to the plan of some sort of light rain system around that whole Nassau hub, and the Roosevelt Field area. It was mentioned in the papers about 3-4 years ago.
One more unfunded trial balloon. The politicians and media engage in fantasy transit projects just as we do here (tho' not to the extent that we do).
It's money.
Refer back to the post you replied to.
>>They should at least restore the line so that the Clinton Road station can be restored<<
That would kinda difficult, the Garden City locals would scream at the notion of restoration of that branch. They're even uptight about the occasional freight that waddles by. They would go ballistic every time the crossing gate bells go off !
Bill "Newkirk"
Is the line still used for freight? Where does freight stop is it is used.
The line is still used for freight, which the NY&A would like to expand. The line is officially now known as the Garden City Secondary, two miles long.
I think you're wrong. I don't believe there are any freight customers. The yard near LI Bus was converted to another purpose & I don't believe NY & Atl is allowed to enter that branch.
That's why last year the Circus train was handled by LIRR engines.
Mr rt__:^)
You may be right--the NYAR station list doesn't show any stations on the Hempstead-Garden City Secondary, but, OTOH, their map does show at least part of the Hempstead Branch.
Go figure.
Then again, it occurs to me that a couple of months back they were running articles that the locals were ready to have a cow over proposals to increase freight on the line (also see other parts of this thread).
Maybe they've given up on it but presumably that freight would have been NY&A because LIRR is supposed to be out of the freight end.
I think the reason the circus train was pulled by LIRR locos and not NY&A Locos is that the circus train carried passengers and the NY&A as a freight carrier is not allowed to carry passengers under FRA regulations. I think I read this a while ago on this forum.
By the way, all the tracks except one at the Stewart Av yard where the train parked were removed. Also there is no longer any connection to the RR crossing across Stewart Av.
[I think the reason the circus train was pulled by LIRR locos and not NY&A Locos is that the circus train carried passengers and the NY&A as a freight carrier is not allowed to carry passengers under FRA regulations.]
Sarge, that's a very good point, I knew that but didn't think of it when pondering why the LIRR pulled the Circus train.
New York & Atl has done a couple of fan trips along the Bay Ridge line & when I mentioned it to a LIRR engineer he said that they weren't alowed to do that. Now the Bay Ridge doesn't have any LIRR passenger service, maybe it's a loop hole in their restriction ? In any case I'm very happy that I learned about these trips & enjoyed both very much (the last was April 2001).
Mr rt__:^)
I think they would not have a choice if the line where to be restored since they already lived there when the line was first started back in the day. Do you think everytime freight goes through that area that the LIRR has to get permission for residents that live close to the ROW?...I don't think so. Nassau County will never be the same as it was in the past. There is a new feeling and a new direction for where this county must head. We have a new county executive that will bring new ideas and hopefully blow some cobwebs out of some of these NIMBYs.
Nassau County will never be the same as it was in the past. There is a new feeling and a new direction for where this county must head. We have a new county executive that will bring new ideas and hopefully blow some cobwebs out of some of these NIMBYs.
There certainly are changes afoot in Nassau's government, as the remnants of the old kleptocracy are purged, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a reduction in NIMBYism.
Nassau County is built up. The crush of cars coming from the sprawl out in Suffolk makes things worse. They're not going build more highways. Even NIMBYs have problems getting to work. Employers have difficulty finding/keeping low-level, low-paid employees for lack of an adequate means to get to work. Maybe they'll continue being anti-transit, but I think they've reached the point where the powers that be are open to spending gigabucks on transit improvements.
They're not going to build many more highways in Nassau, but they're planning to make the current highways in Nassau much wider.
They're not going to build many more highways in Nassau, but they're planning to make the current highways in Nassau much wider.
And where will these widened highways lead? To the world's longest parking lot?
Well, it's not my idea. The NYS DOT has been holding public meetings and telling everybody exactly what they intend to do but so far noone seems to be too interested.
When the bulldozers move in they'll be interested, but typically that's too late.
Bulldozers?...did some say knocking down houses? gee..I seem to remember a nice set of expensive homes that got knocked down in the Roslyn section that faces the LIE. Seems that some houses had to torn down to make way for the widening of the LIE just recently. So you see, in this case, the NIMBYs lost out to the bulldozers.
NO..like more pollution that we will have to deal with in future generations. We must look real stupid to the Europeans since they are so much more into transportation than we are. We are so pro-car here in the USA that it is so DISGUSTING; that so many people here get so upset with the word TRANSIT that it conjures up a way of moving poor people around that can't afford a car in order to drive a few blocks to the local supermarket. If we had better transit here on Long Island, we would have less stress and less road rage to deal with.
They're not going to build many more highways in Nassau, but they're planning to make the current highways in Nassau much wider.
Traffic almost always seems to expand and fill new or expanded highways to capacity. Nassau County's unlikely to be an exception. It is really, really silly that community opposition keeps rail projects from being developed.
(Employers have difficulty finding/keeping low-level, low-paid employees for lack of an adequate means to get to work.)
That's because low rent housing is zoned out of Nassau. Allow some of those aging one family homes to be converted to two- and three-family homes, and the labor force problem goes away. That isn't done, however, and we know why.
Allow some of those aging one family homes to be converted to two- and three-family homes
That's just the mistake areas like Patchogue did in the 60's. It almost destroyed the town. Patchogue and Babylon have identical housing stock. Large victorians and colonials built from the turn of the century to the 20's. Patchogue allowed those beautiful old homes to be divided into mult-family homes, Babylon did not. Where would most people rather live now? Patchogue is only beginning to recover from the mistakes of the past, one of which was allowing those large old homes to be divided into multi-family dwellings.
Allow some of those aging one family homes to be converted to two- and three-family homes
That's just the mistake areas like Patchogue did in the 60's. It almost destroyed the town. Patchogue and Babylon have identical housing stock. Large victorians and colonials built from the turn of the century to the 20's. Patchogue allowed those beautiful old homes to be divided into mult-family homes, Babylon did not. Where would most people rather live now? Patchogue is only beginning to recover from the mistakes of the past, one of which was allowing those large old homes to be divided into multi-family dwellings.
You can sure see the difference in the two downtowns. Babylon has an attrative downtown with many charming shops and restaurants. Patchogue's downtown, in contrast, has way too many "for rent" signs.
To be fair, downtown Patchogue has a lot of competition from retailers located along the Sunrise Highway access roads in the north part of town. Downtown Babylon doesn't seem to have quite as much competition.
This is why I say that any town would be crazy to allow the dividing up of houses into multi-family dwellings. It's the kiss of death for a town. There are ways of building affordable apartments without destroying the housing stock like they did in Patchogue. So with that said, I still disagree with Garden City residents NIMBYing the Central Branch, but at the same time I don't feel they should leave and have the large homes divided into apartments either. There has to be some middle ground from one extreme to the other.
There are ways of building affordable apartments without destroying the housing stock like they did in Patchogue. So with that said, I still disagree with Garden City residents NIMBYing the Central Branch, but at the same time I don't feel they should leave and have the large homes divided into apartments either. There has to be some middle ground from one extreme to the other.
At the risk of getting too far off-topic, there are some ways in which lower-income housing can be sited in a community without turning the whole area into a slum. One of the better ways is through scattered-site housing, in which small numbers of the lower-income units are built on multiple sites within the community, as opposed to building a few large projects. And it is unquestionably true that subdividing large houses into apartments is a sure recipe for trouble.
(And it is unquestionably true that subdividing large houses into apartments is a sure recipe for trouble.)
You mean allowing people to use their own property in the way they see fit. Funny how those who rail against government regulations have no problem with regulations that keep the poor from dispersing to the suburbs, where non-professional jobs and decent educations are readily available. And no wonder the poor ended up herded into older cities, where neither is available.
It doesnt' take a government program, subsidized housing or otherwise. Just let the market work, and people will move to jobs. And with the social service burden evened out, jobs will also move to people.
And it is unquestionably true that subdividing large houses into apartments is a sure recipe for trouble.
You mean allowing people to use their own property in the way they see fit. Funny how those who rail against government regulations have no problem with regulations that keep the poor from dispersing to the suburbs, where non-professional jobs and decent educations are readily available. And no wonder the poor ended up herded into older cities, where neither is available.
Subdivision of large older houses is for the most part not a suburban issue. Except in a few older towns like Patchogue, it's mainly in urban neighborhoods, such as many in Queens, where you see houses being subdivided legally or otherwise. Suburban areas with the highest concentration of jobs by and large tend to be newer, mainly postwar, with smaller houses that don't as readily lend themselves to subdivision. Lifting most restrictions on house subdivision therefore isn't likely to provide many job opportunities for the poor.
It doesnt' take a government program, subsidized housing or otherwise. Just let the market work, and people will move to jobs. And with the social service burden evened out, jobs will also move to people.
Can you say "Sunbelt?"
Can you say Singapor,Korea,Indonisia, El Salvador, Mexico, Off Shore.
avid
Can you say "Sunbelt?"
I tried, but then I had to get the mop to clean up the vomit on the floor of my study.
Aww bucking nit. Now everybody gets to see me gentrifying my posts.
Can you say "Sunbelt?"
I tried, but I got sidetracked in that I had to get a mop to clean up the vomit which suddenly came to be on the floor of my study.
There is lots of cheap housing stock in Nassau, but people don't want to live there if they can avoid it.
Really?..can you name a few areas please? is Old Brookville one of them?
Parts of Hempstead, Roosevelt, Westbury (not old), to name a few of the better known.
If sarcasm is order, I can name "poor" areas of New York City like Sutton Place and the Upper West Side.
Well, West 106th Street is part of the Upper West Side, and it's no Park Avenue.
Of course it isn't, it's 106th Street. Fifth Avenue is no Park Avenue either.
Were I extremely rich, my sardonic sense of fun would fund charities that build public housing in all-white, all-Republican areas, with Al Sharpton as the person who explains what it's all about to the press.
Were I extremely rich, my sardonic sense of fun would fund charities that build public housing in all-white, all-Republican areas, with Al Sharpton as the person who explains what it's all about to the press.
Just like the scene in Auntie Mame, where she announces plans to construct a Home for Aged Jews (or something like) in the rich, white, snooty, bigoted southern suburb where her adopted son's fiance wants them to live ....
Ah, yes, where Mame Dennis explains to the Upsons of Upson Downs how she's gonna build a home for Jewish refugees on the land right next to them.
Were I indeed rich enough, I probably really would engage in such expensive spitefulness. How about opening a homeless shelter on Sutton Place?
Strangely enough someone's already done that. The Mayor of Paris. A round of applause for the French! (now, you won't hear me saying that too often)
If it's so urban, why isn't it part of the City?
If it's so urban, why isn't it part of the City?
Nassau County might be part of the city if we were talking about other parts of the country. In many states, particularly in the Midwest and West, cities have the power to annex unincorporated suburban areas - a category that probably would include most of Nassau if it were located elsewhere. In most of the Northeast, and New York State in particular, annexation powers are greatly limited. That's probably because these parts of the country were among the first to be settled and developed a strong sense of local autonomy.
It's partly because a century ago, New York State was very sympathetic to annexation and broad powers for cities, especially New York City. It was under this policy that New York ws enable to annex what is now Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island and was able to stake out claims to expanded water resources in the Catskills.
New York City and others (like Robert Moses in his various City-based positions) used these powers abusively a little too often and there is now an enormous distaste for expanding its powers any further.
a century ago, New York State was very sympathetic to annexation and broad powers for cities, especially New York City
I presume because at that point, NYC had at least half of today's 8 million people, and the rest of the state (non-NYC) had considerably less than half its current population. At the turn of the century, the suburbs hardly existed and the country's very first bedroom community (reached by rail) was Riverdale ... within NYC limits. So I presume the NYS Legislature wasn't yet bifurcated between NYC and the rest as it has been until recently (now trifurcated between NYC, upstate and the burbs).
In 1900 the "Greater" City's population was measured at 3,437,202 out of a total NYS population of 7,268,894. That's about 47% of the state population, somewhat higher than the approx. 42% today. Of course, you'd need to know how much of that population were non-citizens who could not legally vote to get a better idea of the City's electoral clout.
A century ago it was thought that the City needed to annex territory in order to serve its working population--i.e., they realized that people working in Manhattan needed to live outside its crowded confines. It was also figured that it was the City's responsibility to provide services for this working population, such as police, street lighting, transportation and education, and that the City would need political control to accomplish this.
A lot has changed in a century.
What %ge of the the State's population live in Nassau, Mount Vernon, Yonkers and Westchester Counties?
Mount Vernon and Yonkers are in Westchester County, so we're talking about two counties. Westchester and Nassau.
2000 census (approx), Westchster 4.87%, Nassau 7.03%.
Oops my mistake reading the print size on my map! It would be cool if NYC took those two over as they seem quite urban and would boost the city's population to its rightful proportion of the state!
It wouldn't be viable for a whole host of reasons. If the City really believes itself unfairly put upon the State, it should seek secession, which would open a different can of worms.
(If the City really believes itself unfairly put upon the State, it should seek secession, which would open a different can of worms.)
The federal government would never allow four Senators to represent a state now represented by two, so splitting in two is out of the question. My idea is for the downstate region (say the area south of I-84) to join New Jersey. New Jersery is a better run state in an event, and the Port Authority wouldn't be able to drain NY to benefit NJ anymore.
Plus, Upstate would prosper once it was free of us freeloaders. Right?
How about calling the resultant State with New York in it New York and that upstate one Albany or something?
It'd be OK by us up here as long as YOU GUYS take the Paturkey. :P
(It'd be OK by us up here as long as YOU GUYS take the Paturkey)
He's on to me. I planned to stick Upstate with the whole Vampire State set, including Sheldon Silver.
C'Mon! CUT us some SLACK! We're stuck with Joey "hairdoo" Bruno fer krissakes ... we'd gladly trade him for some Taliban. :)
Just call it Albania.
Arti
So New York City could wag the Jersey dog instead instead of the NYS dog? Why would NJ want to do that?
As to Upstate, I don't think they'd do worse and might do better. They might have a shot at more of an agricultural/recerational economy, like Vermont.
At least they'd have Senators that were interested in them.
Actually it could work to solve the problem of DC statehood. We already have 2 democratic senators in NY, A NY without NYC would likely create two republican ones to offset Senators Jesse and Marion from DC.
Actually, the democrats have been doing better upstate lately, we did manage to vote for Hillary and if you check the maps of blue and red counties, you'll find that the counties where PEOPLE live (not cows) has been turning away from the republicans since the repubs upstate have been raising taxes and fees again and again and only handing out tax cuts to the GE's and Finch-Pruyns of the world.
Given the screwjob that was announced by Paturkey today (budget school as promised) Mark GREEN could get elected governor up here right now ... but of course, the demos WILL screw it up ...
Chris and McCall had a little tif at the MLK day event.
Of course downstate elected Rudy twice so who knows.
Yeah, does sorta blow the crap out of the "republican upstate/demo downstate" rap. Heh. And yeah, Carl is getting shafted by his own party pretty hard lately ... which means four more years on the Paturkey farm ... yow.
[Rudy election in NYC twice] does sorta blow the crap out of the "republican upstate/demo downstate" rap.
Oh come on. NYC is the only place in the USA where Rudy (pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-lots of other very non-Republican things) could call himself a Republican and not get laughed out of the room. Notice that before 9/11 most Republicans in Bush states didn't really want him in the same room.
I'll avoid seguing into nostalgia for the now-vanished era of "Rockefeller Republicans," who combined fiscal conservatism with progressive social policy ....
The "People's party" purged those a LONG time ago ... amazingly though, Rudy's idea of republicanism is pretty much the same as that practiced upstate ... except for a few small areas out west where they've breathed WAY too many fumes from Hooker Chemical. Lemme put it to you this way - upstate, you see "D-C-RTL" and "R-L" more often than not. Talk about confused. Heh.
you see "D-C-RTL" and "R-L" more often than not.
Huh? What are you talking about?
He means the political alignments and party endorsements upstate (and on LI too, to a lesser extent) are not always would you would expect.
D-C-RTL = "Democrat-Conservative-Right to Life"
R-L = "Republican-Liberal"
Thank ya for answering that - missed that question. Yep ... strange bedfellows ... that's why the "independent" usually wins up here. Kharma ran over dogma and all that. :)
DC Statehood is as dead as the 2nd Avenue El. Maryland doesn't want them, we have our own poor to take care of - don't need any more.
Plus, there's this liitle thing called the Constitution, which forbids making a state out of any other state. DC was orginally formed from parts of both Maryland and Virginia. (DC used to be a square on both sides of the Potomac.) Congress gave the VA part back many years ago.
What about Maine and West Virginia? Maine was part of Massachusetts until 1820 and West Virgina seceeded from the rest of Virginia in 1863. Was that always in the Constitution or was it added in sometime after the Civil War?
Article IV
Section 3. New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.
That was bent at the beginning of the Civil War to create west virginia from virginia.
(Corrected my own typo, secession is now a spelling error)
So according to the constitution, splitting NY is unlikely (more representation in the Senate) but joining New Jersey might go.
Speaking of DC, when I was there the locals claimed it is booming, crime down, poor being pushed out by yuppies, train ridership soaring, etc. True?
So according to the constitution, splitting NY is unlikely (more representation in the Senate) but joining New Jersey might go.
No, either is possible, but would have to be approved by the appropriate legislatures and Congress--i.e., NYC separate state, NYS legislature and Congress have to approve. NYC switches to NJ. NYS, NJ Legislatures and Congress have to approve. All the affected states plus Congress.
Speaking of DC, when I was there the locals claimed it is booming, crime down, poor being pushed out by yuppies, train ridership soaring, etc. True?
From what I can see, it is OK but not booming, crime is down in some places, the poor are not being pushed out by yuppies, and train ridership is up. My brother lives in SW. Yuppies would not want to live where he lives, though the area is well served by Metro Green Line and has decent shopping. SE? Don't ask. Where Bill Clinton or fellow travelers might live--Georgetown and parts of NW? Was always desirable. I guess that's "booming" but it's not all of DC.
Biggest concerns I know of now for a DC resident are the usual, crime, schools, crime, services, crime, the City Administration, crime, whether MD might take the City, crime, Congressional oversight, crime, bring short-changed by the Feds and, did I mention crime?
In theory at least, it is actually very easy for one state to split itself into two or more states. All it takes is a law passed by the legislature indicating its assent to such a thing, and an Act of Congress admitting the new state to the union.
As a practical matter, it requires the involved state to amend its own constitution, and settling contentious issues such has how the state debt is to be divvied up, and for NY, the things I mentioned in an earlier post -- water, prisons, how what will become interstate transit (and other) infrastructure is to be dealt with, etc. In other words, messy questions.
Things wouldn't be any better if NYC became part of Jersey (as if New Jerseyans would even want that!). Instead of having upstate politcians complain about the Big Apple freeloaders, South Jersey politcians would be doing that. Nobody wins if NYC becomes part of Jersey and I think most New Yorkers (myself included) would rather throw themselves in front of a moving train than see our city become part of New Jersey. It's bad enough "our" football teams play there and that George "Blowhard" Steinbrenner threatened to move the Yankees there. It's bad enough that the New York Stock Exchange looked to move there as well. Now you want the whole city to become part of New Jersey? Why, so Trenton can screw it instead of Albany? Over my dead body!
would rather throw themselves in front of a moving train
Back on topic! What would this do to schedules and which lines would be most severely impacted?
than see our city become part of New Jersey. It's bad enough "our" football teams play there
But if "we" became part of New Jersey "our" teams would play "here" because "there" would "here." Don't you want our sports teams back? ;-)
(Based on their spending patterns) If NY were part of New Jersey, we'd get the Second Avenue Subway and better schools. Since we are part of New York, Medicaid spending just went up again.
(Based on their spending patterns) If NY were part of New Jersey, we'd get the Second Avenue Subway and better schools.
Since we are part of New York, Medicaid spending just went up again.
There is an easy solution to the city's budget woes. To paraphrase a famous line from Apocalypse Now, I love the smell of municipal bankruptcy in the morning.
How about if both NYC and Jersey City seceded?
When was it, when Wm.F.Buckley ran for mayor? His platform included having the 5 boroughs secede from state.
I've always liked the idea. Upstate would into a solidly Republican state while NYC would be Democratic: Congress would not be too uptight as a result (there would be little change in the Senate or House).
The big issue would be the City's water rights, how interstate transit subsidies would be divvied up, plus all those upstate prisons with NYC felons.
The surburban counties would probably have fits if such a thing went thru, rightly assuming their commuters would be fleeced.
When was it, when Wm.F.Buckley ran for mayor?
1965
His platform included having the 5 boroughs secede from state.
No it did not.
That suggestion was made by Norman Mailer and Jimmy Breslin, who ran for mayor and City Council President respectively, in the 1969 Democratic Primary.
(That suggestion was made by Norman Mailer and Jimmy Breslin, who ran for mayor and City Council President respectively, in the 1969 Democratic Primary.)
Hard to say I agree with Bauman, but that's what I heard also. More recently, a State Senator from Upstate wanted to secede from Downstate. MORE POWER TO HIM!
a State Senator from Upstate wanted to secede from Downstate.
Which one? WHICH ONE? Let's all encourage this ... if it's not invented downstate, perhaps poor foolish upstaters will buy into it! (Although as a homeowner in both places, I dunnow which side of me takes precedence .... )
Would love to see how upstaters would exist without the tax base NYC provides....hehehehe
This year's budget will be the evidence ... for the FIRST time in NYS history, upstate will be subsidizing downstate ... went through the budget documents and all I can say is "YOW" ... sure hope I can earn enough to help. :)
Even more fun was Mayor Fernando Wood's plan to secede from the United States and form the independent nation of Tri-insula (sp?) back in 1860 or so.
A fun interpretation of his statement is given on John Linnell's album House of Mayors.
Mark
He wasn't the first to propose secession. With the potential loss of the lucrative cotton supply from the south, some prominent NYC businessmen actually proposed that NYC seceede from the Union. I kid you not.
I believe you!
He wasn't the first to propose secession. With the potential loss of the lucrative cotton supply from the south, some prominent NYC businessmen actually proposed that NYC seceede from the Union in 1861. I kid you not.
The central Branch wood be well used. It cuts through Levittown. Alot of people that have to go either North or South to the other lines will use it. It is a shame that it was closed when it was, because if it lasted it woould have been a viable line.
>>The main use of a revived Central Branch would be to provide 50% additional capacity to lines in Suffolk County, where the capacity is badly needed.<<
You really don't need a revival of the Central Branch to accommodate a projected increase of rail ridership in Suffolk County. The LIRR was toying with the idea of triple tracking the Port Jeff branch from Floral Park to Hicksville. Even the Herricks Rd grade crossing elimination has three tracks in that area.
A revived Central Branch would only supplement the Babylon Line rather than the Port Jeff line. Triple track the Port Jeff line and next add a third track to the Babylon Line between Lynbrook and Babylon. You wouldn't need any stations, just build ajacent to the current ROW and have switches at Freeport, Wantagh and Amityville.
Bill "Newkirk"
A revived Central Branch would only supplement the Babylon Line rather than the Port Jeff line. Triple track the Port Jeff line and next add a third track to the Babylon Line between Lynbrook and Babylon. You wouldn't need any stations, just build ajacent to the current ROW and have switches at Freeport, Wantagh and Amityville.
A revived Central Line would provide additional capacity for the Ronkonoma and Montauk Lines, thereby relieving the Port Jefferson Line. The Ronkonkoma Line is growing in importance while the Port Jeff is relatively less so.
It would make useful the underutilized trackage from Jamaica to Country Life Press. It would provide six tracks of trunk line through Nassau where you only have four now.
The LIRR is already committed to third tracking the Port Jeff Line. Third tracking the Babylon Line has its own problems. For one thing you would be feeding three tracks into two at Lynbrook. Yes, you could divert some traffic to the Atlantic Line, but this is already utilized by the Far Rock and Long Beach Lines and by some West Hempstead, Babylon and Montauk trains.
Also, there is room to expand to three tracks on some parts of the Babylon Line, but on other parts, streets and houses are close up to the right-of-way, meaning there would be takings of homes for right-of-way and construction. Do you think it's fair for people on that line to lose their homes because people in Levittoen don't want revival of an existing right-of-way?
>>Do you think it's fair for people on that line to lose their homes because people in Levittoen don't want revival of an existing right-of-way?<<
The railroad was there first and if they have to expand for a transportation necessity so be it. Recently in New Jersey where NJT wanted to extend the Montclair Branch to hookup to the Boonton Line, there was opposition about razing of homes and displacing their tenants. But guess what, the homes were bought out, the people relocated, the buildings were razed and after a period of contruction, this connection will soon be used.
The thing is, I'm picturing the Babylon Branch between Lynbrook and Babylon and don't know where there are any homes close to the ROW. It seems mostly commerical property.
Well let's involve me in this. Let's say I live close to the ROW, love those M-1s and dual modes shaking my house like clockwork. But alas, my house needs a new roof, new windows, vinyl siding the works. MR. LIRR knocks on my door and wants to buy my house to add another track. You want my house and property bad enough, make me an offer and I'm out of here !
You see the moral of this story is when you triple track the Babylon and Port Jeff lines, the railroad is already there, and so is the noise. Now with the Central Branch through Levittown, the railroad was long gone, probably no one alive remembers it. Speculate about reviving commuter rail service, even rush hours only and those taxpayers will remember those property taxes which soon will be higher.
I answered a post earlier about the Central Branch through Garden City. Wasn't it recently that the good people of Garden City bitched about a proposed slight increase of freight traffic ? Imagine a revived Central Branch, crossing gate bells and M-7s blasting through blowing their horns. I can picture moving vans on both side of the streets of that part of Garden City.
Bill "Newkirk"
"I answered a post earlier about the Central Branch through Garden City. Wasn't it recently that the good people of Garden City bitched about a proposed slight increase of freight traffic ? Imagine a revived Central Branch, crossing gate bells and M-7s blasting through blowing their horns. I can picture moving vans on both side of the streets of that part of Garden City."
Again, we need to go over this notion that Garden City people seem to be better than most other people that live next to a ROW. If they can't deal with train traffic, then they should of not moved next to a ROW to begin with. Anyway, what about they people that already live next to the ROW near the Stewart Manor area or some other part of Garden City. Do you think they constantly complain about noise all the time when an M-1 passes their house?...PLease!..let be real.....I myself live in an apartment building in Bayside where my apartment looks out onto the ROW and the station on Bell Blvd. I have to constantly out up eith noise from the ROW. I don't see anyone on my block running to get a moving van everytime the LIRR decides to start a major track project.
Well let's involve me in this. Let's say I live close to the ROW, love those M-1s and dual modes shaking my house like clockwork. But alas, my house needs a new roof, new windows, vinyl siding the works. MR. LIRR knocks on my door and wants to buy my house to add another track. You want my house and property bad enough, make me an offer and I'm out of here !
[ ... ]
I answered a post earlier about the Central Branch through Garden City. Wasn't it recently that the good people of Garden City bitched about a proposed slight increase of freight traffic ? Imagine a revived Central Branch, crossing gate bells and M-7s blasting through blowing their horns. I can picture moving vans on both side of the streets of that part of Garden City.
So let me follow this. The person on the Babylon Line has a house in crappy condition that he'd just as well sell (must be some trash living on that line) while the good burghers of Garden City would move away because they are terribly terribly sensitive people who could not deal with even a tiny increase in freight traffic, no less a revived line. They would abandon fine houses, not like the crappy ones on the Babylon Line. Do we see a class issue here?
And "they want my property bad enough"? They really make you an offer you can't refuse. It's called condemnation by the power of eminent domain.
And you miss a different point in calling for a three-track Babylon Line. The improved conditions on the Ronkonkoma Line has made this an enormously popular line and has, in fact, taken traffic away from the Montauk Line trains that use the Babylon Line. Third-tracking the Babylon Line does nothing for those Ronkonkoma trains, that are now stuffed into the Main Line along with the Huntington, Port Jeff and Oyster Bay trains.
But the people of Garden City don't have to worry. The politicians won't touch them, except for a highway.
We are losing sight of this original thread.
Some are calling for revival of Central Branch service. I say there are too many NIMBYs on this route who will be very vocal if that becomes reality. I don't support or protest them, I can just see a revolt of sorts.
THE REALITY:
Revival of Central Branch service.....it ain't gonna happen.
Triple tracking the Port Jeff between Floral Park and Hicksville. That will happen, but just when we don't know. The LIRR is seeking to do this to relieve the congestion of this route. That would serve a possible increase of Ronkonkoma service as you stated better than start from scratch with reviving the Central.
The LIRR to my knowledge hasn't expressed interest in reviving the Central because they know it would be cheaper to triple track an existing ROW than revive a long dormant one. Has anyone, except on this board, expressed a revival of the ROW ? The LIRR also knows the opposition they will receive if they just mention a proposal. Newsday would have a field day.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, there have been extensive and detailed proposals to revive the Central Branch. The MTA and DOT resist there specifically because they don't want to deal with the people along the line.
So you have explained why people are vocal NIMBYs. The politicians don't want to deal with people who are militant if they can get away with putting something in someone else's backyard.
That is a reality. But it doesn't make it right.
>>Yes, there have been extensive and detailed proposals to revive the Central Branch. The MTA and DOT resist there specifically because they don't want to deal with the people along the line.<<
Are you saying that the MTA and DOT have extensive and detailed proposals to revive the Central and NIMBYs would revolt ? You see I was right. Whether it be middle class Levittown & Bethpage or upper middle class Garden City, the people will scream about any disturbance of their serene suburban surroundings. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of NIMBYs. In fact the NIMBYs who reside in that apartment building beside the abandoned LIRR Rockaway Line, with the help of some local politicians, steadfastly FORBID any revival of that rail line for any reason. And of course they even built a parking lot on the ROW to show the size of their balls!
>>So you have explained why people are vocal NIMBYs. The politicians don't want to deal with people who are militant if they can get away with putting something in someone else's backyard.<<
Maybe it's that political mantra that goes: "I voted for you, you have been elected, so my vote is responsible for your victory, YOU OWE ME !" I don't subscibe to that kind of thing, but admit it, we read about it all the time in the papers.
So if you say the proposal to revive the Central was squashed because of possible NIMBYism ? Maybe that proposal was shifted to the Port Jeff Line for a third tracking between Floral Park and Hicksville. If a housing boom causing a jump in ridership on the Ronkonkoma Line calls for an additional track for relief, why not a Port Jeff third track ? The best part is the ROW is already there, just expand. Also rebuild the stations to ADA specs. Don't take this heated volley as a cyber arguement. I like you and your website, also your Silver Leaf books are still cool ! I firmly believe that third tracking would probably be cheaper and faster than reviving a dormant branch and running into a vocal roadblock.
>>That is a reality. But it doesn't make it right.<<
I know Paul, a lot of things are reality and don't make it right either. How about the apartment building and the LIRR Rockaway Line. Reviving that may never come to fruition because the tenants are known to have strong connections to local politicians forbidding re-use of the line. Now that sucks !
Bill "Newkirk"
I am not necessarily unsympathetic to NIMBYs. NIMBYism exists because governmental has expanded its use of eminent domain over the last century and has become callous to the concerns of people impacted.
However, my particular problem with NIMBY vis a vis transportation is that the concerns of anti-transit NIMBYs are almost always addressed while the concerns of anti-highway NIMBYs are almost always overridden, at least when DOT is serious enough about a project.
Case in point: the Northern State Parkway widening between Meadowbrook and Wantagh, way more intrusive, both in construction and in daily operation, than almost any rail project. The locals got an injunction against the State but it didn't kill the project, only delayed it a few years.
With Central Branch (or former Rockaway Line in Queens, or name your own) the State won't even propose a revival.
BTW, in case you don't know (I've mentioned it now and then) I live about the same distance (a few hundred feet) from one of the busiest stretches of the busiest commuter rail line in the country (electric AND diesel) and from a garden variety four-lane non-divided highway. The highway is much more annoying and intrusive.
However, my particular problem with NIMBY vis a vis transportation is that the concerns of anti-transit NIMBYs are almost always addressed while the concerns of anti-highway NIMBYs are almost always overridden, at least when DOT is serious enough about a project.
Case in point: the Northern State Parkway widening between Meadowbrook and Wantagh, way more intrusive, both in construction and in daily operation, than almost any rail project. The locals got an injunction against the State but it didn't kill the project, only delayed it a few years.
With Central Branch (or former Rockaway Line in Queens, or name your own) the State won't even propose a revival.
This might be because, almost invariably, more people will use a new or expanded highway than will use a transit line. While there will be opposition to highway projects, there also will be more of a public outcry for the project. Transit projects have a more limited user base and therefore won't get as much support.
Which isn't to say, of course, that the state (or city) should merely concede defeat when people raise opposition to transit projects.
I am not necessarily unsympathetic to NIMBYs. NIMBYism exists because governmental has expanded its use of eminent domain over the last century and has become callous to the concerns of people impacted.
However, my particular problem with NIMBY vis a vis transportation is that the concerns of anti-transit NIMBYs are almost always addressed while the concerns of anti-highway NIMBYs are almost always overridden, at least when DOT is serious enough about a project.
Agreed. Furthermore, while both transit and highways take advantage of eminent domain, transit clearly uses it much less.
I'm inclined to do away entirely with eminent domain when it comes to transportation resources. The value of a piece of land to its owner may legitimately be much greater than its market value. In such a case, requiring the owner to sell at market value is morally, if not legally, theft. (If I go into my local Food Emporium and insist on buying a gallon of milk for its market value, I'd probably be arrested. Legally, I can only pay the Food Emporium's asking price or bring my business elsewhere.) As long as there is no one fixed route planned, the transit or highway agency can shop around for land.
In any case, eminent domain doesn't come for free. It's a subsidy from the property owners who happen to value their land more than the market. This subsidy needs to be recognized for what it is.
It would be nice to see the Rockaway or other ROW revived. The MTA could get some bulldozers and tear up anything that was build on the ROW without permission. It was illegal for anyone to build on the ROW without permission in the first place I assume. Maybe we could go volunteer to take care of it for them. I woudln't mind putting money into a collection to rent a bulldozer. The MTA already owns the land and they should be able to do whatever they want with it. These morons should not have moved near a ROW either active or inactive if they are going to complain about noise or whatever from it. It was probably there before they were.
Shawn.
Bill, I don't think there is a stone culvert in SalisbEisenhower Park. I spent many a time in the park as a kid and go there now with my family and don't recall anything. There is evidence of the ROW as the land is raised where the ROW was with slopes on both sides. Kids use those slopes for sledding. There is an old trestle alongside the Meadowbrook Pkway just south of Stewart Av which was used by the Central Branch.
Point of information: The tracks were electrified between Garden City and Clinton and the RR used the old MP41's to shuttle between Country Life and Clinton.
By the way, Bill, this year's calendar is great!!! You outdid yourself.
>>Bill, I don't think there is a stone culvert in Eisenhower Park.<<
I was told this by "Buzz" Lubitz, who is a retired LIRR employee and Sunrise Trail member. I have to give him a call one of these days and bring this up.
Thanks for the compliment on the calendar. I don't think I outdid myself, I think the calendar outdid itself !!
Bill "Newkirk"
The old Central Branch was single track and not electrified
I think the central branch was electrified at one time. I've seen pictures of Clinton Road with third rail.
>>I think the central branch was electrified at one time. I've seen pictures of Clinton Road with third rail<<
Well you're half right. The Central Branch was electrified from Garden City to about where the Meadowbrook Pkwy is (Salisbury Plains ?) There was a Salisbury Plains shuttle using MP-41s. The last assignment of the MP-41s before they were scrapped.
East of Salisbury Plains through Levittown and Bethpage were never electrified.
Bill "Newkirk"
"East of Salisbury Plains through Levittown and Bethpage were never electrified."
This part is sort of true, but there are old pictures showing trolley service down through the golf course area of the Bethpage Park.
Apparently third rail went as Salisbury. Art Hueneke has a page on the AC Overhead wire electrification of the Central Branch for "five miles of track east of Hempstead Crossing." I believe Hempstead Crossing is near Country Life Press(?) so that takes us how far east?
Hey, I am wondering, since we're all subway fans, that we all get together and design an idea (a proposal) for what should happen downtown, and submit to the Lower Manhattan Re-Devlopment, like a new super station. We all have ideas, and we all like subways, lets work together to get something good subway wise.
What do you guys say?
Well, for a start, see my earlier post called WTC transit: likely & possible.
Hi Subtalkers!
In my quest to gradually make t-shirts for all of the trains, I am
moving on to the J train. (It will be my first brown logo!) Meanwhile, can anyone tell me what the route is called, i.e.
on the R train, it's the "Broadway Local," on the "S" it's the
"Times Square Shuttle" on the #6 train, the "Pelham Local" etc.
What does the sign on the J train say?
I haven't been on a J for a long time, so need your help...again!
Thanks for being my network, guys!
Subway grrl
P.S. Check out nycsubwayline.com for my current products!
The official name is Nassau Street Express, but in reality, it is anything but. I think it is one of the most unfitting names, since it only has one stop on Nassau and it doesn't even run express in Manhattan anymore.
the signs read:
TOP -Jamaica Center/Parsons
LOWER-Broad St Manhtn
weekends the lower says Chambers St Manhtn
Some top signs omit "Parsons" and some have have a two line sign reading
Jamaica Center
Parsons/Archer
It has one stop at or near each end of Nassau, plus one in the middle. On weekends it doesn't run on Nassau at all. The name probably originates from the Nassau Loop usage -- and the Nassau Loop specifically did run on Nassau.
It was never an express in Manhattan. There are no express tracks. It used to bypass one stop more in skip-stop fashion than in express fashion.
J Jamaica El
M Myrtle Avenue El
Offically These two Lines Are
Nassau Street Local/Express
On the official NYCT timetable it lists the J as "Nassau St. Local" and the Z as "Nassau St. Express." The J is essentially local with two exceptions: the rush-hour skip-stop service with the Z in Brooklyn and the peak-direction express runs from Marcy Ave. to Myrtle Ave. to Manhattan 7am-1pm and to Queens 1:30pm-8pm. I agree that the J only runs on Nassau St. briefly, and as such it is not much of a fitting name, but that is nevertheless what it is called.
Subway line colors derive from the trunk route they follow in Manhattan - thus the brown lines are the Nassau Street routes, albeit a short trunk line.
As another poster noted, the J is the Jamaica Elevated - old timers still call it by this name. It was also called the #15 Jamaica Local/#15 Jamaica Express for many years until the BMT routes were assigned letter codes in the mid 1960s as part of the BMT-IND mereger.
Subway line colors derive from the trunk route they follow in Manhattan - thus the brown lines are the Nassau Street routes, albeit a short trunk line.
More accurately MIDTOWN Manhattan. A service along 8th Av and Houston St would be blue. A service along 6th Av and 6th Av Extension would be orange. The Nassau Line does not go to midtown. It is therefore an exception in the colour scheme. However, its colour is allocated by virtue of being an exception. That would, however mean that any train from the WB through the Christie St Connector would be blue or orange depending on the route taken at West 4th St.
Correct. For example, if the old k train was resurected, it would be the orange K over the Williamsburg Bridge. It would not be brown because that is the Nassau color.
By the way you are also right about the brown being the exception to the "midtown" color scheme. (The G being light green being the other one)
You could also add the L (gray) 14th St. line to list of non-midtown colors, since 14th St. is not really midtown either (most New Yorkers define midtown as 23rd to 60th Sts.).
Below 50th Street is what I read today. This then makes it so the G, J, L, M, and Z lines are included in some way.
Are you the one that provides those black T shirts to the TA Museum store with the route letter ?
Can you go back in time and make a QJ or RJ ?
And how about going into the future and making a P for all the jokers on here?
Yes, that's me, but no time to make the old train shirts yet.
I haven't even finished making the current ones!
J Train shirt, eh???
All I can say is...
Awesome, Grrl :)
You KNOW I'm buying one.
Can't thank ya enough.
Please post when the 'G Crosstown Local' shirts are ready (yes I am getting a little ahead). And please, try to make a few xxl, or tall sizes!
love your work.
I really do appreciate all the work you put in to making the shirts. But, I am afraid I have a couple of comments/complaints.
First, it is too bad that you put the borough names on the shirts. I think this robs them of what otherwise would be a look of authenticity.
The shirts would look sooooo much better with no text at all on the front. The line symbols are beautiful in themselves, and they really deserve a nice, clean, uncluttered presentation, devoid of any distracting text.
But, if you are going to put *something* below the line symbol, then it ought to be the terminal stations, just as they are displayed on the on-board signs. An F train shirt, for example, should say "Coney Island to 179 St." instead of "Brooklyn to Queens".
Next complaint: I was dismayed to see that the A train shirt says "Manhattan to Brooklyn", despite the fact that both of the A train's usual southern terminals are in Queens. (All 3 if you count Rock Park.) So, "Manhattan to Queens" would be correct; that is, if you forced yourself to stick to this format. The use of terminal stations would be much better ("207 St. to Lefferts Blvd." or "...to Far Rockaway").
Of course, the A line symbol alone -- without any text -- would be the best possible look.
At a store somewhere in Soho, I found a bootleg J train shirt that has the J symbol on the front, with the legend "Brooklyn and Queens via the Williamsburg Bridge" under it.
That legend is reasonably authentic-looking, so I sighed and bought the shirt. At least I can wear the shirt without feeling that I look like a tourist. I never would have bought it if it had said "Manhattan to Queens".
Conversely, if the Museum had been offering shirts with just the line symbol on them, then I would have bought one shirt apiece for the C, the E, and the F trains, and two shirts apiece for the A and the J trains.
So, let me implore you once again to make some shirts with the line symbols alone on them. Not only would such shirts be much more beautiful, but there would probably be a greater demand for them -- anyone whose name (or whose kid's name, boyfriend/girlfriend's name, etc.) began with the letter in question would be a potential customer.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I agree completely...
I have bought some bootleg shirts as well--sorry--but I buy what I like the better. Ferdinand's suggestions are right on the mark. Also, the hats should not be of the "low-rider" variety. Please consider making the hats like regular "baseball" style. I have bought the bootleg hats and they are mush better looking. Even the folks in the Transit Museum have liked the bootleg hats over yours!
Thank you,
Marc
wow a J shirt already? i love it
Hi, Subtalkers!
When you speak of a railfan window, I can't help but think of one
of my favorite subway t-shirt designs. Look in the NY Transit Museum
or on my site for a design called "Subway Kid." It looks like a child's crayon drawing of a kid with nose and hands pressed up against
the "railfan window" at the front. (The train's wheels are subway
logos) I think it speaks to the kid in all of us who love to ride
the rails.
nycsubwayline.com
Subway Grrl,
I did notice a child's shirt at the Museum Gift Shop that had a crayon type illustration with a SEPTA Market Frankford car with a "N" yellow bullet on the front. Is that the one you're talking about?
If so, did you know that was a Philadelphia and not a New York subway car on it ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Dear Bill,
Don't take a naive design so literally, or you won't have any fun
in life! Just enjoy!
Unless you're from Philadelphia. Put more of our cars on your shirts!
Mark
Speaking of T-shirts. In a Las Vegas thrift store, I found a subway series shirt with a train for each team. The #7 was a fine red IRT looked like R36 but the #4 train was an R-11!. Not only is the R-11 retired but it can not possibly use the #4 tracks. What is it with that? It was a beautiful picture but inacurrate. The route signs were transposed as to number and destination too.
Don't know, but they weren't mine!
The #7 was a fine red IRT looked like R36 but the #4 train was an R-11!. Not only is the R-11 retired but it can not possibly use the #4 tracks.
Uh-oh... it was signed for the Sea Beach! Fred musta done it; maybe he wants the Yankees to move to Washington Park <g>
First of all, why does the one at Lexington/63 and 59/Lex count as your free transfer? It sort of abolishes the purpose, especially if you are coming from the Upper East Side and want to go to 6th Avenue on a weekend.
Also, why not make the following stations have transfers as well?
Bleecker and Bway-Laffyette (not so important until 2004)
Livonia and Junius
Broadway (G) and whatever the nearest J/M station is
These transfers would increase the number of ways people could get to where they need to go and could make things easier for people.
I always thought a transfer should be available at either Lorimer or Hewes to the G train at Broadway. The same for the L and the IRT at Livonia. I don't understand why now that they have the metrocard technoligy, they haven't used out of system free transfers more.
I posted not too long ago on this exact point. This is a perfect candidate for a 'walking transfer'. It takes some politicians to kick the TA where it hurts for this to happen. And for the politicians to do it, the constituents along the G train need to kick their politicians where it hurts.
And afterall, only commuters are going to use this. There really isn't a need for it to be all nice and pretty, since the purpose is to improve things for the commuters.
With all the unlimited MetroCards is use are these extra transfers really necessary?
Not everybody has to take the subway to work every day. I use the subway maybe 30 times a month; not enough for an unlimited anything except for the occasional Fun Pass on a really busy day.
Yes because there are people who commute only one way or not every day but don't use it enough for an unlimited pass. I am one. Why should you be entitled to more benefits just because your lifestyle makes you take the subway daily in both directions?
If you use the weekly or 30 day metrocard, then you have the free transfer. (Provided you have waited for 18 minutes since your last swipe). It is only those using the regular metrocard who don't get free transfers at those stations.
I could stand to have a free metrocard transfer in downtown brooklyn to transfer to some of the lines that go downtown. Namely, transfer from F at Jay Street to N/R at Lawrence Street. Since I get on only 2 stops away, 18 minutes probably hasn't passed unless the F train is really, really late. I hear they plan to build a fair zone transfer for that someday, but until then, how about letting us run up and down downtown brooklyn without the extra $3/day fare?
Wasn't there also some plan to build connecting tracks between the F and D/Q around Prospect Park? The two lines are pretty close, about five blocks apart near Prospect Park.
I like that better than a connector.
A local State Assemblyman proposed the idea in 1982. It went nowhere.
David
And why are we not entitled to them as well?
When I use the Fun Passes, it is wonderful, why is Lexington and 63rd NOT an additional free transfer? It counts and no one is going to use it if we can't get on a bus after we use it.
The 18-minute lockout doesn't apply at two different stations.
But, IINM, most of us are still using pay-per-rides.
There was such a free transfer at Broadway to/from Lorimer in 1999, during the Willie B closing. It was discontinued 9/99.
Come to think of it, there was also a walking transfer at B-L / NB Bleecker, I believe when the E/F/6 transfer was closed for escalator replacement.
That's correct, there was, for the duration of that escalator replacement project-----but it required Metrocard, as well
I though turnstile to turnstile transfers were allowed with pay-per-ride metrocards ever since they introduced the V train. They can't track that where you come out of, it only checks where you entered the system.
Only four stations accept MetroCard transfers from the subway: Lex/63 (F), Lex/60 (4/5/6/N/R/W), Court Square/23-Ely (E/G/V), and 45th Road (7).
Officially, at least. I've heard rumors that a fifth station accepts MetroCard transfers; if I get a chance, I'll test it Sunday morning.
I know but it counts as your free transfer. You can not take the F to Roosevelt Island, then take the 6 to 86th Street, and then take the crosstown for 1.50.
First of all, why does the one at Lexington/63 and 59/Lex count as your free transfer? It sort of abolishes the purpose, especially if you are coming from the Upper East Side and want to go to 6th Avenue on a weekend.
Because that's the way transfers work: one MetroCard transfer per paid fare. There have been proposals here for the TA to offer two hours of unlimited usage rather than a single transfer, but AFAIK the TA has no plan to implement such a scheme. In this case, the TA could (and should) have done a better job of publicizing this point.
I don't see the big deal from the Upper East Side: walk to Lex and use the transfer, or take a bus to Lex and transfer twice (E to D), or stay on the 6 to B-L and transfer to an F back uptown. The transfer is geared primarily toward those coming from Queens who need to transfer to the 4/5/6 -- and they have a greater problem than you, since many of them have no choice but to take a bus to the subway.
Also, why not make the following stations have transfers as well?
Bleecker and Bway-Laffyette (not so important until 2004)
Livonia and Junius
Broadway (G) and whatever the nearest J/M station is
MetroCard transfers, as implemented, lead to lost revenue. I can now (and often do), for instance, make a round trip to Lex/60 on a single fare as long as I don't need to be there for very long. But this is only possible at two pairs of stations, keeping such usage to a minimum. The more of these transfers offered, the more such loopholes are available.
I've suggested an alternative MetroCard transfer system. The TA would place a large bank of MetroCard swipers inside fare control. Those who wish to transfer must swipe before exiting. If they enter the other end of the approved transfer within ten minutes (or so) of exit swipe and within two hours of initial entry, the transfer is free. Except for very quick errands, this wouldn't allow a free return trip, and it would never allow an actual round trip (if I exit at Lex/60, I must reenter at Lex/63).
In general, such transfers could be implemented where either enclosed transfers are impractical or where the TA has just not yet gotten around to building them yet: in addition to your examples, other possibilities are Lawrence - Jay, Atlantic/Pacific - Fulton - Lafayette, the new lower Manhattan hub (if it's not inside fare control), 59 (1/A/B/C/D) - 57 (N/Q/R/W), Queens Plaza - Queensboro Plaza, Grand - Bowery. They could also be used to permit free crossovers at stations where one might expect to be able to reverse direction: 135 (2/3), 72 (1/2/3), 86 (4/5/6), Bergen (F/G), Briarwood-Van Wyck (E/F).
Before the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was reopened with it's current configuration, there were bus fareboxes inside the token booths of the shuttle platform, and in both directions of the (C) Franklin Ave. station. The transfer it gave you lasted for only twenty minutes, and had to be used at the connecting subway station (I.E.: From the (S) to the NYC or Euclid Av. (C) platforms.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Indeed, but what I had in mind doesn't require lines at booths and doesn't require extra paper MetroCards. Paper MetroCards can also easily be sold to anyone on the street; if the transfer is encoded on my regular MetroCard, I probably wouldn't be inclined to sell it unless it happens to be (otherwise) empty.
A couple I'd add to that list:
Fulton on the (G) and Laffeyette on the (C) and Atlantic-Pacific on the (N)(Q)(R)(W)(1)(2)(4)(5)
Queens Plaza on the (E)(G)(V) and Queensboro Plaza (N)(W)(7)
:-) Andrew
Well I have been working to decide and come up with an idea on a new WTC site. I have finally come up with the idea and concept. The Towers will be 100 stories high. I am trying to come up with a new system called the puzzle linking system for the new tower. It works with the steel being first being sprayed with fireproofing, and then pour concrete around the fire proofed steel. Then making all the pieces, then link everything together, then the exposed steel with be fire proofed and pre fabricated concrete will be used to cover the steel. What this does is, in case of another hijacking, the concrete outer steel will protect the steel a little better. Adding additional time for escape. The building will become very stiff instead of flexible. There will be a concrete and steel core. The building will be stronger and stronger towards the bottom so if something defects that the building will not entirely collapse as the lower floors can hold up the upper floors. The side that everyone outside will see is made of glass. On the first six flights of each building there will be inscribes messages on the glass from relatives of victims of the WTC incident, to create a living memorial.
Below there will be a major subway complex. The E line will be extended to the center too all-direct access to each tower. The 1 and 9 will be to the side of the towers with a strong concrete shell to protect it and shield from harm. There will be a new terminal will Amtrak, Path, NJ transit the 7 or L.I.R.R. or Metro North can terminate at.
So right now I have no way to test my theory on the puzzle system since I don't even have money to do it. All I have is my imagination.
Soon I will have a formal plan, typed out to present formally to the lower manhattan re-devlopement corp. Anyone wanna help me out?
Doesn't the steel in the towers need to be somewhat flexible to absorb wind impact a little better? i dont know of a single skyscraper designed with rigidity in mind. If its too rigid, high winds will cause enormous stresses on the structure.
I would focus more on the subterranean part of this whole thing. I think that the Lower Manhattan subway stops should be made into a huge transit center. It should be possible to walk off the PATH and onto the subway without ever going outside. The Courtlandt stops on the N, R, and 1, WTC/Chambers on the A, C, and E, and Fulton/Bway-Nassau on the A, C, J, M, Z, 2, 3, 4, and 5 would make up the entire complex.
It should be possible to walk off the PATH and onto the subway without ever going outside.
Uhm, you could do this before. Or, are you talking about walking across a platform or something? Keep in mind, also, that the relative depths of many of the stations is significantly different, especially the PATH level.
Why are you stopping at 100 stories? If you're planning that high why not go for the rest and be the tallest?
The Petronas tower is only 88 stories high. See I have plans
it can only have 100 flights
and be perfect tall
Chris,
I'd have to go with gary on this one. If we build anything less than 110 stories, then the terrorists have won. How about 111 stories? -Nick
If they get as close to the old 110 stories and stop at 100 would be a waste. If going at least 100 stories tall and might as well go for the highest. As for the Petronas only being 88 stories, must mean that the ceilings are taller on each floor and that would be a waste also. I kinf of think though that the Petronas are not built to have higher ceilings, but may have THICKER, STRONGER floors, but that is just a guess. It's a shame that this country lost the title of having the tallest building to Malyasia. (I guess the Sears tower held that title before that). That title should come back to the US again....................at the site of the WTC.
The Petronas towers have a pair of large spires on the top that are not usable floor space. Sort of like saying that the Empire State Building is 86 stories high, because 87-102 are not exactly usable floor space.
Check out this web site: http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Petronas_Towers.html
I always tried to count the additional floor gates while in the manual elevator to the 102nd floor, but never could. Too bad they've closed it - not for security reasons, but due to demand. They must have concluded it wasn't worth having the line of tourists extend all the way around the 86th floor.
I can pick out 1 flaw in your plan. It was the flexibility of the original towers that prevented them from toppling towards the ground. High structures are vulnerable to strong winds so flexible material would be needed.
First of all even if the buildings were ever built that high again who in their right mind will want to have offices that high up especially after the September 11th attacks.
USA Today ran an article several weeks ago and in its story it gave a breakdown on what floor of each building did the people die from.
Close to half the death total was in the Tower I believe the North Tower with the TV antenna) which was the first tower hit from the 82nd Floor Up.
It was only due to excellent construction of the buildings that they lasted so long after the crashes. IT WAS A MIRACLE THAT THE TOWERS DID NOT COLLASPE RIGHT AFTER THE CRASH. IF IT DID THE TOTAL DEAD WILL HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE WITH A NUMBER I DO NOT WANT TO EVEN IMAGINE.
Even if another attack can and hopefully will never happen again what happenes if the weather is bad or a pilot has a heart attack and a crash happens again will you want to be in that building
I sure would not
Thank You
Barry,
You have two major flaws in your post:
"First of all even if the buildings were ever built that high again who in their right mind will want to have offices that high up especially after the September 11th attacks."
People will come. You don't see businesses moving out of the Empire State Building or Sears Tower. If this really becomes a problem, perhaps lower rent will be available on the higher floors, which can encourage smaller businesses to come to the heart of the financial district, which will be a boost to the economy.
"IT WAS A MIRACLE THAT THE TOWERS DID NOT COLLASPE RIGHT AFTER THE CRASH. IF IT DID THE TOTAL DEAD WILL HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE WITH A NUMBER I DO NOT WANT TO EVEN IMAGINE."
You are right that the dead would have been much more if this did happen. However, many people were surprised that it collapsed to begin with, it wasn't until the massive amount of heat melted the rivets of all the floors when it was finally ready to collapse, and there is no way that was to be immediate. -Nick
People will come. You don't see businesses moving out of the Empire State Building or Sears Tower. If this really becomes a problem, perhaps lower rent will be available on the higher floors, which can encourage smaller businesses to come to the heart of the financial district, which will be a boost to the economy.
Isn't it ironic that the high floors before 9/11 were probably the high rent floors...........
However, many people were surprised that it collapsed to begin with
Not true. I doubt any engineer expected those towers to stand. Even if the steel was surrounded by concrete, the concrete would have cracked under that amount of heat. Concrete expands and contracts with temperature change, which is the reason for expansion joints. That much temperature change caused by the fire would bust all the concrete in the building. Also rivets weren't used in the WTC. It was welded together, which is much stronger than rivets.
If this really becomes a problem, perhaps lower rent will be available on the higher floors, which can encourage smaller businesses to come to the heart of the financial district, which will be a boost to the economy.
If low-rent on the higher floors (such that the owner has to take a loss) becomes necessary, you can be sure that the rent will increase in the first few years as people put aside their fears.
The only life without danger can be enjoyed in the graveyard.
"The building will become very stiff instead of flexible."
Although counterintuitive, excessive rigidity is a bad thing -- it decreases the wind and earthquake loading a building can handle. You are going to want flexibility.
"The building will be stronger and stronger towards the bottom so if something defects that the building will not entirely collapse as the lower floors can hold up the upper floors."
Unless new construction mateirals are invented, this is probably not practical. In order for the lower floors to withstand the weight of the upper floors collapsing, the lower floors would require so many columns and supports that they would be unuable as office space/retail.
Now don't get me wrong. I really do like your fireproofing idea, though.
In the end, you can make the new buildings invincible at any cost, but the terrorists will simply pick a new target; one not as well protected as even the original trade centers.
MATT-2AV
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1691995804
Models look great. Too bad the manufacturer didn't do his homework. The 2-car set are both even # cars.
I noticed that. I would be printing up new boards anyway in blue, and eliminate the bastard numbering. I'd install black and white end signs. I tried scanning the cloth signs from the original IND signs for my R10 sets but the Adobe Photoshop 6.0 is too complicated to figure out with my time. Perhaps I can still purchase the signs at Red Cabboose if they still sell it.
likes to hang out at 42nd and 6th on the S/B near the punch. Tall dark hair wears a 'car coat' and NYPD or FD shield baseball cap.
There is another railfan that likes that spot. Baby blue 'rat hat', old parka and glasses.
A 'rat hat' is a polyester watch cap that costs about a dollar.
On this board, I've read many mentions of the extension of the 7 line. Beyond the Main. St station, how would the MTA figure out which way is best. EL tracks or underground tracks? Or course we can't forget NIMBY reasons (Not In My Back Yard)?
Umm... You're extending it at the wrong end. The extension that was proposed is the extension from Time Square to Javits Center (that Guiliani proposed).
What happened to the Javits extension plan. I haven't heard about it in a while. Is it dead?
Depending pretty much on the 2012 Olympic bid now. If the city wins that, then they'll probably get serious about the Javits extension, since it would go hand-in-hand with the stadium construction (which would supposedly by used by the Jets after the Olympics are over).
If the city wins [2012 Olympics], then they'll probably get serious about the Javits extension, since it would go hand-in-hand with the stadium construction
It'll be tricky. NYC won't get the Olympics (I suspect) unless they build the new stadium. Whether any team really wants that new stadium under newer, more realistic terms (e.g. team pays majority) is open to question.
And you still have to get the stadium through the planning process. The neighborhood is very, very, VERY against it. And they're well organized, and they're good at publicity and taking advantage of the public-input portions of the land-use process. Frankly, stadiums are lousy neighbors: Empty 95% of the time, so no commercial activity, and then streets swamped with raucous drunken sports fans the other 5%. (We've gone through the public-subsidy portion of the stadium argument in the last few weeks .... )
If we MUST build over the railyards, I'd far rather have a mix of office and residential there. Or better yet, stick something that requires a big footprint -- like Gehry's new Guggenheim -- there.
What I've read the stadium would be used as an extension to Javitz Center. That would be very favorable for NYC as there's too little space to be competitive (especially with Las Vegas) at current Javitz.
Arti
Not to get too far off topic, but even a larger Javits Center is not going to be competitive with Las Vegas for the big shows.
1. Wages here for setup, electrical, etc., are much higher.
2. Trucking costs are much higher not only because of wages but because of urban congestion.
3. Business managers would prefer Las Vegas because it's cheaper and quicker to get there and especially to stay there overnight.
NYC has wonderful advanatges, and Javits is very good for certain shows, but Javits will never compete with Las Vegas.
What if they did decide it out to the East? It's interesting to think about, although it probably won't happen.
Maybe it would run down along Northern Blvd to Bayside or Douglaston? Even more interesting in my opinion would be an extension down to meet up with the F train again (at 179th St) or instead even possibly turn north and terminate in the Bronx.
How about a connection to the LIRR ROW? Then the abandoned Queens staions can be used again.
Running it north or south would be wastefull, IMHO. You would be linking to places that already have serivice. I'd say it's much more important to extend eastwards. I sat follow Roosevelt Ave to Northern Blvd, then take Northern as faras you could take it, to the Nassau Co line if possible.
:-) Andrew
I should explain that I mean that the terminouses the (7) would be a waste, though I do understand that it would serve useful places in between. I have completely different ideas for them.
For College Point and Whitestone and even northern Bayside, I propose an extension of the (N) past LaGuardia and over Flushing Bay, to then follow 20th Ave, Willets Point Blvd, and Bell Blvd to Bay Terrace.
For southern Flushing/Kew Gardens Hills I say my idea for a new (K) would do the trick. The idea is a route that would share 14th St. with the (L), and break off in Brooklyn by remaining on Metroploitan Ave. It would turn down Union Tpke in Forrest Hills, then follow Union as far as it could go.
:-) Andrew
I sat follow Roosevelt Ave to Northern Blvd, then take Northern as faras you could take it, to the Nassau Co line if possible.
Much of that duplicates the Port Washington branch; better to turn the 7 south someplace and serve central/eastern Queens.
I say extend it both ways. We need subway service in Eastern Queens too.
:-) Andrew
What about the plan to extend west to Jersey City? The Yankee fans will need a train to see their team if they do not have a car, after the Yankees move to New Jersey as they should.
New Jersey and the Yankees...Perfect together.
There have been proposals to send the Flushing line to Jersey for about as long as the line itself has existed. The last serious one I saw in press (from before Javits was built) was to send it to the Meadowlands development, for what would essentially be a mega park and ride.
Sending the Flushing IRT to Jersey is of course a silly idea. Rather, you build something to IND standards and have it meet the 7 at some common terminal, or even better, run parallel to it for some distance.
If any NYC subway line gets sent to Jersey, my candidate is the South Ferry IRT line.
Actually, sending the 7 to the Meadowlands isn't that dumb an idea, if both the MTA and Port Authority could get together and come up with a PATH line that also ran there from either Journal Square or Hoboken.
An eveutal connection between the PATH and the IRT would be far easier to conceive of than fitting any IND/BMT width system in there, since the IRT and PATH share roughly the same specs (and some sort of hybrid car that could fit on both systems and FRA rules adjustments could be made in the future to handle those differences). A line built to B division specs could never intermingle with any PATH line, and has no natural Manhattan connection in place other than the Canarsie line, which is a little too far south from the midtown area to justify a hookup to the Meadowlands.
If you give the Flushing a new tube, a new crosstown alignment, and switch it to the IND, then sending PATH from the Meadowlands in Jersey via 42nd, the Steinway tunnel to Queenborough Plaza or beyond would make considerable sense.
The Steinway tunnel is the catch; It's barely wide enough for the Redbirds as it is (and wasn't wide enough for the R-62s when they first arrived). Unless the MTA wants to endure the added (and unnecssary) cost of rebuilding both tubes, the line will stay IRT for the foreseeable future.
That also means the whole Flushing line will stay IRT, becuase at 30 TPH, only it has enough capacity to run both peak express and local service east of Queensboro Plaza (you can't do it with the BMT, because the 60th St. tunnel splits its service at the 11th St. cut). But with 30 TPH, it would be possible to split the IRT line west of Ninth Ave. and run half the trains to Javits Center (or further south) and half to New Jersey and still maintain four-minute headways during rush hours (at 15 TPH apiece).
"An eveutal connection between the PATH and the IRT would be far easier to conceive of than fitting any IND/BMT width system in there, since the IRT and PATH share roughly the same specs"
Are they really the same size? I always thought the path was wider than the IRT..
Maybe they can turn the whole IRT #7 line to the path.. which might solve the problem of creating a line to La Guardia Airport.
N Bway
The PA-1/4 car design bows out in the middle to take advantage of the system's tunnel curviture, so they are slightly wider than the IRT cars. But I believe the old H&M K cars and the IRT cars were the same width. If so, any future intermingling of the two systems would require development of a hybrid car that could deal with tracks and stations both on the IRT and the PATH (I think the union and FRA concerns would be a bigger problem in the long run...).
If that's the case, the Path could take over the number 7 line.. Then a route could be built to Laguardia Airport, which will also be served by the Air train.
N bwy
>>> after the Yankees move to New Jersey as they should.<<<
Please tell me you're joking about that. I'd rather have a rather have a lobotomy than see my Bronx Bombers move to New Jersey. I'd rather piss on a live 3rd rail than see my Bronx Bombers become the Jersey Bombers. It's bad enough that the Jets and Giants play there (and still have the balls to call themselves New York teams), but the Yankees too? They got all those former New York companies too and they got most of Ellis Island. My God, even the New York Stock Exchange considered going there? But even that doesn't seem to be enough.
Seriously I would switch my allegiance to another baseball team if the Yankees move to Jersey. Heck, I'd root for the Mets or the Phillies or even the...Red Sox! They won't be the New York Yankees if they're in New Jersey. It just won't be the same! I'm sorry, it won't!
>>> Beyond the Main. St station, how would the MTA figure out which way is best. EL tracks or underground tracks? <<<
Although there are no current plans to extend the 7 past Main Street, when the Main Street station was built, it is clear from the original design of the station that the possible continuation of the line was considered. It is my understanding that the station has now been modified to put fare control at track level which would preclude extension of the existing tracks. Any continuation would have been underground. It would make no sense to tunnel to Main Street rather than continuing the el if any contemplated continuation was to be above ground.
Tom
So, if the #7 were to extend East, underground, would it be a two track, three track, or four track tunnel?
I would offer MMHO for a four track tunnel. A dual level tunnel with the express on the lower level. The express rising for across the platform transfers and desending again to continue its dash.
It would be built to "B" DIVISION SPECIFICATIONS. The Future must be considered. The non-peak direction express track will be used for layups.
OR! If the L.I.R.R. ROW has enuff room, add two outside tracks and assume service to the current LIRR stations, allowing the L.I.R.R. to go express.
If the ROW is not wide enuff. go up! Go up airtrain style concret viaduct. This would be the fastest and cheapest and least disruptive.
This viaduct would be built to "B" DIV. Standards for at least 75ft cars. JIC.
avid
Similar to the Central Branch thread it got me thinking. Is there any remnant to the Wading River Branch after Port Jeff left anymore. Has the ROW been sold off, or is it still intact, and who owns it. That is another line that would have alot of use now if reactivated.
Much of it have been strip malled over.
Too bad. it should never have been abandoned from Port Jeff east. It was not very forward looking. Of course in 1939 the line had to make a profit, and apparently it didn's.
Instead of the railroad expanding to Wading River, now you have some pretty bad traffic on 347 from Lake Grove east to Rocky Point.
And the traffic is getting worse. There have been all kinds of studies on how to deal with 347. Now more than ever that line would be of great use.
Too bad. it should never have been abandoned from Port Jeff east. It was not very forward looking. Of course in 1939 the line had to make a profit, and apparently it didn's.
Most of that area was still pretty rural in 1939. No one could have predicted that some day it would become much more heavily populated.
>>Much of it have been strip malled over]<<
Much of it is a ROW for LIPA power lines.
Bill "Newkirk"
Couldn't the Power lines be there along woth the Railroad next to them or under the wires? Does LIPA own the old ROW or the MTA?
>>Does LIPA own the old ROW or the MTA? <<
It's not clear to me who owns or own and leases the ROW to.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>. Has the ROW been sold off, or is it still intact, and who owns it<<
The ROW is used for LIPA power lines. Don't know who really owns the property.
While the ROW is still much intact for that reason, there are other points of interest. The line was single tracked east of Port Jeff. There is a nice old stone bridge in Shoreham. I pulled my car over to the side and walked up the ROW and looked around. There was a couple of parts of ROW, much like the Central Branch, had a road that rose and dropped to indicate there was a railroad there at one time.
Also, I haven't scoped out this area in a few years. I remember that in Miller Place is Thurber Lumber, which was the old Miller Place station. When I checked it out years ago, it didn't resemble the station building because the building was expanded. I stopped in and spoke to the someone inside and they said this was true. I heard there was some old wainscoting from the old station days in the building, but I didn't see it. The Wading River extension seemed to be another casualty of the great depression, that's my belief.
Bill "Newkirk"
Last time I was down in that area 5 years ago only LIPA transmission lines marked the ROW.
I have two questions about the Staten Island Railway.
1-Is it operated similar to Manhattan and Bronx Surfice Transit Operating Authority is operated by the Department of Buses.
2-Is Staten Island Railway governed by the Federal Railway Adminsitration like the LIRR or Metro North or is it governed in the same way like the Department of Subways is under Federal guidelines.
Thank You
>>2-Is Staten Island Railway governed by the Federal Railway Adminsitration like the LIRR or Metro North or is it governed in the same way like the Department of Subways is under Federal guidelines<<
I heard on this board that the FRA thing was dropped several years ago. Even some FRA mandated grab bars were removed from the R-44s. I don't recall if an "F" for forward cab is still painted on the car body.
Bill "Newkirk"
Stickered, not painted.
-Hank
to answer question # 1-
The SIRT is operated by an entity called SIRTOA (Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority.)
SIRTOA runs the system under the MTA umbrella. NYCT eemployees cannot work for SIRT. To work for SIRT you have to be hired by them and they have different contract than NYCT.
They follow the SIRT rule book (pass a red signal with number board is rule 509A and must be called over the radio) not the TA/LIRR/MNRR rule book.
And that they're in a different legal "boxing ring" than the rest of the MTA, since their legal entity name is SIRTOA/S.I. Rapid Transit Op. Authority. God, it's good to get some legal business from the MTA. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
1. The SIRTOA/SIRy is directly under the MTA, even though they sort of merge some of the statistical figures and even place SIRy under the NYCT part of the MTA website. Still, I don't think there is any administrative merging.
2. SIRT is still under the FRA but has extensive waivers. I think they are sensitive to anything (like being rehooked to mainline railroad trackage) that might threaten that.
for #2 i think its governed by the F.R.A.
Overseen by FRA but under several wavers so they don't have to have things like 2 tone horn, grab irons at everydoor. I don't know each waiver they have, or even if they have one for Engine Inspection, the above two I know they have.
I was browsing through the pictures of that field trip. I assume those cars were the 3 ex-LIRR BG-72 Bar-Generator cars. Are they now just stationary power plants, or do they move ?
Why can't the city rehab the express tracks on the Sea Beach (N) in Brooklyn by putting in signals and three stations?
New Utrecht
Bay Parkway (or Kings Highway)
and 86th Street
Then go all the way to Coney Island.
One or two switch tracks with the local track can be worked in on the line. Then passengers who live in Bensonhurst and beyond can have an express, just as we had on the Brighton Line. Also people who live by the new Express stops would be convienced.
Back in 1967, I had the privilege to ride the NX (Noble Experiment) a few times along the Sea Beach express on an R32.
The open cut may be a challenge; to enlarge as it appears at Newkirk Ave. on the Brighton Line (D,Q). But if the Long Island Expressway could be enlarged, it can be done on the Sea Beach.
What letter disignation can the new Sea Beach Express be given? How about, in memory of the NX, giving it "X." The line can be nicknamed the "Malcolm Line" for Mr. X.
Of course the X Sea Beach express would be bridge only and express on Broadway and anywhere else that it could go express.
As for the present day "N", with the X, I think that we can let the N roll through the rat infested Montague Street tunnel and go local to
Ditmars Blvd. as long as the X runs. If the X does not run at night, then the N should rightfully roll over the bridge.
I also want to ask a similar question later to SEPTA railfans about the Broad Street Line.
You've been listening to Fred too much.
Oh no, he hasn't. He has come up with a plan even better than the one I suggested. You just don't get it, do you? We Sea Beach men are brilliant strategists, we see things in their entirity, and we know what can work and what can't. The Pep has come up with a great plan and you do him a diservice by calling him a copycat.
Fred: Its my understanding that since the Sea Bits no longer goes to Coney Island and due to the fact that you no longer live in Brooklyn the TA plans to rename it the 86 Street Line.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Wouldn't that be the 86 St SHUTTLE? :)
Selkirk: That sounds like a good idea. Run the shuttle between 86 Street and 8 Avenue. Make the Manhattan passengers to the double U at New Utrecht Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
=O ... not the double U!
N: I fiugre the W aka "the Weak and Wobbly" won't last to long so we will have to replace it with the U U. Remember Fox's U-bet choclate sodas.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's a good one - Wobbly. I'll add it to the list.
Maybe it's just as well that Bob is busy. He'd only be pouring gasoline on the fire.
Work with me here, buddy ... I'm trying to uphold Unca Fred's whining about his truncated train and here YOU are trying to kill the boy. Heh.
Selkirk: Actually I'm just turning the clock back to the way it was. After the Sea Bits stopped running to the 65 Street Docks they joined up with the West End at Take-A-Bath Junction. Unlike other BMT lines which couldn't make up their minds to be subway or el. The Sea Bits really had an identity problem. It ran Standards,BU's and Trolley cars.
I have a very nice picture of Standard 2054 with trolley poles on the Sea Bits line. Would this be considered very heavy light rail or very light heavy rail.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And to this day, it still runs a mix of equipment :D
When I came of age in the late 60's and started to notice the N it was strictly R32 and nothing else. If I had ever seen anything but R32 on the N I would be flabergasted.
That would be mid-60s, 1965 until November 1967. At Chrystie, it became R27/30s and R32s, with the majority the former.
The R-32s and the N are synonimous to me to this very day. It seems as if the R-32s have never really left that line ever since they were first assigned to it in early 1965. The very first subway train I ever took was an N of shiny new R-32s.
I like the R-32, it is a nice looking car. But here is where most of my colleagues and me go different ways. I also like those R-68's too. My friends call them hippos, but th ey look impressive to me. I don't have anything with the cars on the Sea Beach, only its route. And I have a very big gripe with that if you've been following my daily diatribes.
I love the R32s... they're good... don't worry Fred, they'll be around for a while.
You would have liked the R-32s even more in their as-delivered state. By the mid-70s, their trademark blue doors had been painted silver, and instead of having both route and destination signs on their end bulkheads, they had a colored letter sign installed in the destination slot. On top of that, their side signs were no longer illuminated in green, but white - when they were working.
The seats in the R32 was originally blue just as the doors or maybe slightly lighter.
Glad you like the Brightliners (R32s) too, Fred. The Triplexes had a worthy successor. Like you, I also like the R68/As, although that opinion is rather unpopular around here.
They'd be OK if they had the final field shunt step restored.
Wowsers ... the Bronx was *civilized* by comparison ... would love to see a few of those shots ... I'm sure others here would as well ...
I second that. Got to see a trolley pole on that Sea Bits. Hopefully at Take-A-Bath Junction.
Just as long as it is a picture of the past, but if they ever try to make my train a trolley, there will be trouble brewing aplenty.
Just be grateful Dude isn't getting his way ... rumor is that line is about to be downsized to O gauge once MTH delivers. :)
"Take-A-Bath Junction". Larry, I really like that! Next stop, Petticoat Junction.
Rim shot!
Next thing you know, Chris Berman (he could....go....all....the....way!) is going to start complaining.:-)
I have a very nice picture of Standard 2054 with trolley poles on the Sea Bits line. Would this be considered very heavy light rail or very light heavy rail.
A Standard can't be considered a "very light" anything! :)
With the BMT standards, it was heavy heavy rail. With the Triplexes, it was VERY heavy heavy rail.
Steve: I'm getting confused here. Weren't the Triplexes five kids that lived in Canada, or was that the Duplicates?
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm sure Kevin that Larry is not doing it intentionally, but at least you guys are talking about my train instead of some other line. But there is a lot that can be done to improve the Sea Beach, and, of course, it means express, the bridge, and Stillwell. There have been some good posts on this and I will keep reading on.
I'm sure a few large bulldozers could work wonders ... fresh housing. Heh. Somebody needs to stand guard at 59 St to make sure they don't cut the switches, finally putting the SeaBits out of its misery. How much would you NOW expect to pay, Unca Fred? :)
Bustini bustini ...
SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Don't let Sea Beach Fred hear THIS!!!!!
GP 38, I have heard it. And tell those guys they had better start watching their backs because Sea Beach Fred forgets nothing.
I am not a Sea Beach man. I identify with the Brighton Line, which is the greatest. I just think that an express on Sea Beach is a great idea. And I love Sea Beach too, but my loyalty is with Brighton, which should get the M line back.
Oh well, at least you're not anti-Sea Beach like some of my demented colleagues on this site.
I don't think anybody's really anti-SeaBits, but you just make it SO easy to bust your chops. Heh.
Selkirk, you are having a field day with this aren't you? Try to stay warm and not get hit by any ice balls.
Heh. Sometimes I just can't help myself. And besides, while Brighton Beach Regis is on hiatus, that makes me a guest host! :)
Hmmm. The Kev and Fred Show. Not a bad ring to it.:-)
Now, the Bob and Kev and Fred Show would really be something. A 3-way shouting match.
They say trouble always comes in threes. Take a good luck at this trio, #1 Brighton Express Bob, SelkirkTMO, and Sea Beach Fred. Could Subtalk survive this trio running loose? I don't know. Maybe Bob should stay off awhile because if three of us go at it the insults and spears are going to be flying hot and heavy and some of you innocents out there are going to get skinned.
I'm just a guest host. :)
In the absence of #1 Brighton Exp Bob, somebody's got to do it....
And my buddy Selkirk is going one hell of a job, isn't he? Well who needs Bob anyway? If he things he's too good for us, tough tacos. That ought to get back to him because if he hears I am panning him the Brighton Express will roar into action.
Fred ... I already WARNED you about those tacos ... I was watching KTLA-11 and got a hell of a kick out of an ad for some Taco dump that's selling LOBSTER TACOS for $1.99 ... that's unnatural, man ... no WONDER you can still love the SeaBits. Heh.
Absolutely not. I think a rehab to make the express tracks usable would be do-able and relatively easy with positive results.
Remember that the Sea Beach Express tracks were constructed to provide a quick way to Coney Island in a previous age when cars were more of a luxury for New Yorkers. The express tracks can now be used for the convenience of people who shop and work in Downtown Brooklyn and in Manhattan.
The Brighton Line was originally two tracks. I think the dual contracts enabled the expansion to four.
The Long Island RR was originally constructed as a quick way to Montauk so passengers could get off to board a ferry for New England. Now it serves the residents of LI. The Sea Beach express tracks can be useful in the same way that the LIRR is now useful.
Technically the Sea Beach express tracks are not a part of the Sea Beach line, even though they appear to be a physical part.
The Brighton line was two-tracks when it was a surface line through open pasture. It was converted well before the dual contracts to an ebankment/open cut line with 4-6 tracks when it was still open pasture for the most part. That's not happening with the Sea Beach.
It would also be useless. Sea Beach passenger counts don't come to half of the Brighton line's counts.
Hey guys, how do you like my new pal Peppertree? He's a man after my own heart, and he tells it like it is. Sounds like a hell of plan and one that makes a lot of sense. OK Q, time for you to throw a wet blanket on the whole thing.
The plan sounds good to me.
Why not have just 2 N services:
All Local stops to Kings Highway, and:
Express to Coney Island. The Express would stop at Kings Highway, Ave. U, 86th, and Coney Island.
Hey R16, you've just joined the club. Wow, we are starting to get some real Sea Beach aficianados on board. About time.
Lived halfway between the Culver and the Sea Beach. Kings Highway was my stop.
If you wanted to get there fast, you took the Sea Beach. Loved those R32's..............
That's how I always looked at the Sea Beach. You got where you were going fast. Now they have turned my train into a slogging local that takes eons to go anyplace. Really pisses me off.
The Sea Beach was meant to be Express. All the way.
Once one N goes express and the other local wouldn't that be a different letter than N, or would it be like the Q and diamond Q.,
Revolutionary idea: how about N for the express and NN for the local?
Nah, they phased out the double letters for the good I think. It would have to be a new letter or a diamond.
"they phased out the double letters for the good I think."
The may have phased them out, but I am sure that it was not for the good!
Elias
How about double numbers. There are more of them than letters, and I still stubbornly believe BMT cars should be numbered not lettered. Just look at my nostalgic handle.
If the BMT standards were still around, you could utilize their "Sea Beach L'c'l" signs.
How about double numbers. There are more of them than letters
I know why you are saying that, Fred, but if you had space for double anythings, letters would win! Even if you discount I, O and P, you still would have 23-squared, that is 529, combinations available, compared to 100 with two numbers. If you used mixed letters and numbers, however, there would be 1089 combinations available.
Good idea, let's make those numbers BINARY instead of decimal.
The Sea Beach local would be the 01101110 and the express would be the 01001110
Every train would have a bar code instead of a rollsign:
So when they build 2nd Av they run out of letters. Brilliant plan.
I suggested in my original letter that the designation of X should be used, in memory of the NX experiment.
The line could be nicknamed the Malcolm Line, for Mr. X.
Express should stop at New Utecht because of the West End transfer.
Yeh I know the two lines merge at 4th Ave. but I still like the Express stop at the transfer point.
Would you split the current N in half? Then headways at all Sea Beach stops would double, and everyone would come out behind (since bypassing six stations would save two or three minutes at best, and N headways are much greater than that).
Would you double the current N service? Keep in mind that about 200 stations in the system individually have greater ridership than all three proposed Sea Beach express stations combined! What you're asking for is a taxi service. That's fine by me, but please don't ask the rest of the city to pay for it!
You too, Fred, should take a look at post no. 223766.
As long as the express stops at Bay Parkway. It'd be nice if the N could get the bridge, but if both Sea Beach services get the bridge, then it wouldn't be much help to other customers... Or make the N express :D
Just get one of the Sea Beaches on the bridge and we'll worry about the rest of it later. Oh, yes, make it also the Broadway Express.
Hey Fred, if it makes you feel better, back in August 2000 I was on a Manhattan bound N train which got GO'd and it traveled on the north side of the bridge and up 6th Av. No Broadway Express, but good enough :)
It does make me feel better. I hope to run into some luck like that Bob when I take the Sea Beach this year. Good for you.
I was on that GO also. There was also a GO I was on which made SB Ns go over the south side of the bridge sometime after the bridge flip.
You mean the Montague Street tunnel has more rats than any other section of the subway?
Hey MP: As far as I know I was the first guy on board to refer to the Montague Tunnel as rat infested. The reason I singled out that tunnel is the fact that my Sea Beach has to meander through it into the bowels of Manhattan when it could be luxuriating in the sunshine of the Manhattan Bridge. I want my train out of that crap pile as soon as possible as everyone on board knows since they hear about it from me incesssantly and are probably tired of it. Tough Tacos, I will not rest until my train in back on the bridge where it belongs/
No, I haven't taken a census. I quoted another contributor. I do not think there are many rats on the bridge though.
F line at 14th has always been great rat watching; rivaled only by the 8th ave line 50th street downtown platforms (saw a rat take the stairs there once...awesome)
As long as the rats don't do what the pigeons do on the London Underground, I guess we're all okay.
WotMon Yu Donna Likey 'tunnel rabbits?'
many midtown stops are good, though a few weekends ago i heard a rat that sounded like it was wrestling something awful under the V layup at 2nd Av. Whole damn station was dead quiet at 2AM except for the rat!
You sure it wasn't Selkirk? He told me he coming to the Big City around that time. Then, hell, how could you tell the difference between them anyway?
Easy ... the RAT died. :)
well that does it... next time anyone does any late night rodent wrestling, let me know so I can at least sell some tickets to the tourists!
Forget it Joe. I saw a big one in '99 at Utica Avenue. Good God, it was big and it was ugly, and it meandered ny me like I wasn't even there. Scared the piss out of me. I mean it passed within inches of me but paid me no mind at all. Those little creatures aren;t afraid of us. Imangine if they were bigger than we were.
Heh. Still planning on that trip to the BRONX?!?! Ever hear of a SUPER rat? They're pussies ... :)
How big are the SUPER rats. Are they bigger than the average house cat? At the rate it's going you'll start to see rats the size of Labrador Retrievers
#3 West End Jeff
De s00per rats were supposedly the size of a large tabby ... *big* ... only problem is I never saw one, only HEARD about them ... and everybody had tales of spotting them but never once did I observe the corpus delicti ... now Norges were a dime a dozen (fact! You could buy a "rat pack" from the front window of any MERIT FARMS store in the Bronx, right next to the Pastelillos on display in the front window).
Anyone spots a genuine s00per rat, please post a picture. :)
Mostly the Rat Stations are in Upper Manhattan and the Bronx.The rats are very bold, one jumped up on the platform at 149th street one time he was a good size one too, he walked around liked he owned the place, women were screaming, he jumped right on the platform.I noticed they even come out when the trains pull into the stations years ago they would scatter. but now a different story.
Wowsers ... DAMN the health department. :)
The rats are getting bolder and bolder all the time. Next they'll start to come up to people and sniff them.
#3 West End Jeff
B"H
see here
My father saw a cat sized rat in the streets on Manhattan in the mid or late 1960s.
#3 West End Jeff
Yep ... what amuses me is nearly everyone has SEEN one, but I have yet to see one mounted on a plaque on a wall like a deer head. :)
If I should catch such a big rat I'll let you know. Maybe if I'm really lucky I can photograph it so I can have proof positive that I saw a cat sized rat.
#3 West End Jeff
If you guys dont stop with the rat stories, I swear I'll repeat the Best Rat Story ever Told.
Don't make me do it.
RATS! We got SO close to making you dish ... did it have a little saddle? :)
Go right ahead. Tell the best rat story ever told again. It was lots of fun.
#3 West End Jeff
A rat bit my ex girlfriend in the ankle through her pantyhose a few years back at 30th street station Phila. middle platform. And it happened at 4PM or so.
I have often seen rats go up the stairway to the street and come down with a chicken bone in its mouth or something similar at the Market Street Line 30th st. station.
Well Mike Tyson has an appitite for human flesh as well, but I'd take a rat over dealing with that animal anyway! :-0
Hell ... I had exclusive paper view rights on cable! :)
F line at 14th has always been great rat watching
Gawd. Don't I know it! It's the station I use for my job, but I hate having to be there for too long. I'll never forget the time I was startled by a rat on the mezzanine level. Yekh! Hight time for a war on rats, I say!
I can guess that that station has its reasons for being particularly bad. It is a labirinth of connecting stations, the IND, the BMT, PATH, and the IRT, and above all an abandonned passageway from the IRT to the 8th Ave IND.
--Andrew
"above all an abandonned passageway from the IRT to the 8th Ave IND."
I've seen the gate to this passageway half-ajar at the 7th Ave side. I suspect there are TA work areas along the passageway. What you can see without entering look like it's in pretty good shape.
Did that rat take the stairs two at a time?:-)
The subject of your post has came up on this site before. You should look at post 223766 for the compelling reason as to not institute express service on the Sea Beach.
I get an error message when I enter that number.
Because it's in the archives and is long gone from the main board. Open any message in the archives to see how to enter the message number there.
I tried it now and got the same result. I'm not a computer wiz so I can't say why. The post was by David and contained ridership figures.
Either it was part of a deleted thread, or you've gotta go look for it in the ARCHIVES ... I'd post a link but see no way out to the link from this page ... but it's there - hit the 'subtalk archives' and it'll likely turn up there ...
Here you are. It was moved to the archives.
The IRT Elevated had shuttles on 42 St from 3rd Av to GCT, and 34 St from 3rd Av to the East River, with an intermediate stop at 2nd Av. Does anyone know when and why they were built?
Both date from the early days of the 3rd Ave El (c. 1878) and were built to tap into railroad traffic - the 42d St shuttle for GC Terminal (NY Central, New Haven RRs), and the 34th St Shuttle for LIRR ferries from LI City to East 34th St.
The 42nd St. shuttle was removed in 1923; the 34th St. shuttle in 1930.
>>> The 42nd St. shuttle was removed in 1923; the 34th St. shuttle in 1930. <<<
Where can we find more information about these shuttles? I regularly used the 34th Street station on the 3rd Avenue El in the late ‘40s. It completely crossed the 34th Street intersection, and was clearly more than 15-20 years old at the time. There was no trace of any connection with a shuttle there, and no indication of any change from the original construction.
Tom
IIRC, I'm pretty sure the "Tracks of New York" series (Alan Paul Khun & Jack May), part 1 covering the Manhattan Elevated Railways 1910 - 1920, has pictures and details on these lines.
--Mark
Tom: The reason that you could not see any remains of the 34 Street Branch was that it was level the 3 Avenue Line and just to the west of it. In fact the northbound 3 Avenue platform formed an upside down "L" with the single island platform on the branch.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>> the northbound 3 Avenue platform formed an upside down "L" with the single island platform on the branch. <<<
I looked at Michael Adler's 1920 track map of the els on this site so I see where it was connected, but I am still looking for a source which might have pictures, since I saw no trace of recent modification of the northbound platform which extended beyond the intersection as shown in this picture, or anyplace for the track connection shown just north of the station back in the ‘40s. BTW, the overhead crosswalk which was unique to the 34th Street station is shown on the 1955 track map, but not on the 1920 version. I assume it was there to connect the southbound platform with the shuttle.
Of course it should also be noted that although I lived between 1st and 2nd Avenues on 34th Street, I had no knowledge of the 2nd Avenue el and never noticed any trace of it such as pavement patches where pillars were, just three years after it was torn down.
Tom
If you can get your hands on a copy of Stelter's absolutely beautiful book of color pictures of the Third Avenue el, he has a picture looking west at 34th Street and 3rd Avenue after the shuttle was gone and tells you exactly what to look for. There is a crossbeam extending across thirty-fourth street directly adjacent to the el which is clearly out of keeping with the rest of the structure.
He says the following in his text: "After the shuttle's demolition in 1931, this was the unornimented utilitarian result. The angular cut in the stationhouse [at right] is there because of the curved connecting track. The shuttle platform abutted the flat wall of the station house."
And of course the overpass is a survival of the shuttle. So you see there was evidence, if you knew what to look for.
One was to connect the Third Avenue El to the Grand Central Depot and the other to connect it to the East River ferry.
Eric D. Smith
P.S. There was no I.R.T. when these shuttles were built.
Eric Dale Smith
P.S. There was no I.R.T. when these shuttles were built.
What company was it in those days?
Manhattan Railway Company. In 1903 the IRT leased the Manhattan railway for 999 years in order avoid competiton between its new subways and the 19th century Manhattan and Bronx el routes.
James. There were a few other IRT shuttles. The 6 Avenue El had one between 58 Street and 50 Street. The Suburban Railway had another between 129 Street and Willis AVenue (NYW&BRR Terminal). There also was a shuttle between Fordham Road and 241 Street. In later years there was the 9 Avenue El service between Burnside Avenue and 155 Street although this was quickly shortened to 167 Street and 155 Street.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Why was the 6th Av El constructed as it was with the connection to 9th Av at 50th not 58th?
The connection from the 6th Ave El to 9th Ave El was along 53 St.
Ok, it was along 53rd St, but the station it was after was 50th St. Why wasn't it built slightly further north so as not to leave a one station spur?
The one-station spur to 57/6 was a product of the 60's, and resulted from a need to find somewhere for 6th Avenue expresses to go aside from 8th Avenue.
The one-station spur to 57/6 was a product of the 60's, and resulted from a need to find somewhere for 6th Avenue expresses to go aside from 8th Avenue.
David: If I read the thread right, you answered a totally different question than he asked ... he was referring to IRT elevated shuttles in Manhattan before WW2.
You are correct. I thought he had shifted the topic to the IND. My mistake!
I only hope that someone was about to ask the question I answered.
Why have express tracks not been installed between North Phila. and Olney? All they have to do is fasten the rails and put signals in and turn on the juice.
Even the indentation in the concrete is there waiting for tracks to be put in the hole.
Was the Express track a project that was cancelled or was room left for future expansion?
>>Why have express tracks not been installed between North Phila. and Olney?<<
Just curious, when was the last time you rode the Broad St. subway ?
I remember the missing express tracks in the early 80's but they're there now.
Bill "Newkirk"
All right. I got turned off to the Broad Street Line, when they put the stainless steel BIV cars on the line. They have the full lenghth cab. My wife hates Phila. so she won't go there. I am lucky that she goes to NYC. I won't fight over Phila. I live in Austin, Texas.
I have not been on Broad Street since about 1985, and that was probably to the Vet from PATCO at Walnut. North of CC may be 1983.
Question, Did you ride the Market Street Line from 69th street to 30th Street station in 1982. I met some guy from Newkirk Ave. on the Market Street Line then when I was going to Drexel and returning from a date in Norristown?
I walked with him into 30th Street station and talking about subways all the way. I am from Sheepshead Bay.
The BSS cars have a perfectly fine railfan portal that gives you an ahead view through two panes of glass. It is much better than the stupid "smear vision" you get on the NYC Subway cars.
I guess then, that you also aprove of the "T" subway cars in Boston. I never found a window to look through in Boston, and I lived in Back Bay for a year back in the 1980's.
The 1500/1600/1700's have a piss poor Railfan Portal, but it is doable. The new Bondardier cars have a very nice portal. Full length and width. Same goes for the cars on the Blue line. They are good enough to photograph out of.
How did you find a way to see out of the red line cars? I couldn't.
The 15/16/1700's have a view above the brake cabnet thing on the left side of the can. The bombardiers have the full left size clear that lets you see into the transverse cab and out the window.
I can't see much out of the front of any Boston T cars.
>>Question, Did you ride the Market Street Line from 69th street to 30th Street station in 1982. I met some guy from Newkirk Ave. on the Market Street Line then when I was going to Drexel and returning from a date in Norristown?<<
That was some time ago, I can't recall talking to someone about Brooklyn and the subways. For the few times in the early 80's I was in Philly to railfan, I wasn't alone, but with some friends. Could be someone else !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah this guy was alone. I now remember that he had some railroad related job such as selling tickets for LIRR or Amtrak.
>>Yeah this guy was alone. I now remember that he had some railroad related job such as selling tickets for LIRR or Amtrak.<<
Nope, that wasn't me !
Bill "Newkirk"
The BSS express tracks (between Erie and Olney) were installed in the '89-'91 period as a precursor to the RAILWORKS project that followed in '92 and '93. The BSS was to carry the majority of the Regional Rail riders from the northern suburbs served by the ex-Reading Railroad lines to Center City. Also part of the project, was the new Fern Rock Transportation Center rail station, the major interface between the Subway and the Rail System. During RAILWORKS, Express service was operated from 6am to 8pm weekdays, and from 9am to 6pm on Saturdays. Since the end of RAILWORKS, express service has returned to its 6am to 6:30 pm M-F service.
Maybe that will answer all questions about the Express tracks.
Just to add, prior to that the expresses ran on the local track from Olney to Erie. I rode them several times and was always surprised how fast they went through the local stops at Hunting Park, Wyoming and Logan. Even today, they don't slow down very much past the express platforms at North Phila.
They need to slow to 30.
Why not just make every train stop there or no trains stop there and build a wall so the trains can just continue on through without stopping? I've always wondered about both times I rode the line through there, in 1998 and in 2001. In 1999, I only went between City Hall and Pattison.
The express platforms at the North Philadelphia station aren't used by the express trains, but they are served by the Broad-Ridge spur trains that run express between Fern Rock and Girard before turning into the Ridge Avenue tunnel.
Mark
I know that. They should either be served by both or neither, in my opinion.
How does the current arrangement adversely affect service?
I think service now is pretty good. Having an express move slowly because it is stuck behind a slightly slower Ridge train is a rare occurance. This causes very little confusion also, considering the fact that there are few people who go to North Philly who don't know where they are going (i.e. tourists). And North Philly can, at some points of the day, use the extra service.
Annoying people: Those who transfer from a southbound local to a southbound express at Girard. Even more annoying: those who do so at Spring Garden.
The trains have to slow down and half the train's don't stop anyway.
That doesn't mean they always do slow to 30 though, even though they are supposed to.
Even if they do (and from what I hear they often don't) 30 is still a fairly fast speed for a train to be traveling right next to where someone could be standing. SEPTA had considered some sort of low wall to keep people away from the platform edge but this has been complicated by the use of the stop by Ridge Spur trains (another political, not service-based, compromise - some of you may recall the debacle of a few years back with the Ridge Spur operation).
Keep in mind also that the expresses whizzed by Spring Garden and Race-Vine when they were initially operated, but over time the need to slow down through these stations deteriorated to having the trains stop there as compromises. I have a feeling North Phila will sooner or later become an express stop for just the same rationale.
PATCO trains fly through the non-express stations at 65mph. Amtrak trains run through stations at speeds up to 100 or 110 mph. My dad almost got clobered by a GG1 at Princeton Jct. that way.
I recall being at Haddonfield PATCO when an out-of-service train ripped by fairly fast, so fast that the stairway doors flapped a little from the breeze. At least we got a horn warning as the train was coming into the station. I also recall a couple of teenagers who were sitting on the edge of the platform, despite warnings from me and others about it. They moved, but I'm sure they thought the train was a normal run and would stop at the station. I'm not sure when they realized it wouldn't, but they moved pretty quickly when they did.
I remember back in 1968 that a funeral train which carried Robert Kennedy"s body passed a station quickly enough to suck someone in and of course kill him.
From what I can see North Philly is actually well used. Out of local stations north of City Hall, only Cecil B. Moore seems to be used more. But I'm not sure if this is because people actually get on, or because people use the spur to try to catch a local they missed.
Cecil B. Moore is Temple University, but I guess you knew that.
In my experience, people who aren't familiar with the Spur tend to avoid it. SEPTA doesn't do a very good job of promoting it (and I've been told that this is intentional). I would agree that those boarding at North Phila are probably hoping to get a jump on the local they may think they have missed.
My experience might be similar to others in Phila in that my own first ride on the Spur, at the tender age of 8, was by mistake (boarding at a local stop in rush hour - my adult guardian was just as unfamiliar with the subway as my brother and I were, but we read the signs and tried to convince her otherwise...).
The Spur train is pretty easy to identify. It's shorter than the other trains.
The Broad-Ridge Spur trains also have green lights on them.
Mark
"Keep in mind also that the expresses whizzed by Spring Garden and Race-Vine when they were initially operated, but over
time the need to slow down through these stations deteriorated to having the trains stop there as compromises."
I can't speak for Spring Garden, but you mischaracterized the situation with the Race-Vine station. This stop, at Hahnemann University Hospital, the medical school and associated clinics, was renovated relatively recently (the decision to make it an express stop happened, if I recall right, around '93 or so because that was right when I was graduating from med school there) and SEPTA made a conscious decision to increase service there. Ridership there is higher than when I was in Philly last.
It would have been nice if the station had been made ADA-compliant (esp right by the hospital) but life is not perfect...
All right. My last time on BSS north of City Hall has been around 1984. It was such a gas to ride the old 1928 B1-3 cars for about six years that I could not get used to cars from the 1980's. And I did appreciate them. Every minute of riding in them, was like getting high on drugs (which I never did.) The smell, the sound etc. WOW.
Also, unlike the IND R1-10, the B1-3 had a rear of the car cab for the conductor. No in between or in the middle of the car setup.
Why couldn"t the city have a cab for the coductor back then? Similar to the IND, all but one stop on BSS is in a tunnel.
On or near Track 53, next to the carwash, resides an old R-Type which isn't a Redbird, but appears to be long out of service. Unless my eyes are deceiving me, it appears to be a whitebird. Can Engine Brake or others identify the car in question for me?
-Stef
Perhaps it is a redbird from the 9200 series, in which the roof peeled away so the last coat of white is now visible. The last white car scrapped from that yard was the IRT feeler car R17. Nothing for scrap prior in the main shop had a white roof, maybe it is a scrap car transferred from another yard.
If you get a chance go in the back there and tell me what you find. It isn't a redbird, because I see no red. It's door is open and appears to have no signage. What am I seeing? Inquiring minds want to know.....
-Stef
I looked around before tour, the scrap 22 cars are the only things there. Plenty of White Cars out in the street though , one cut me off on the way in under the el on the bridge.
Thanks. I was looking at the car in question from the 207th St Bridge. My eyes must have been deceiving me....
-Stef
Hold on! I found it!
Dolly strikes again.
Ummmm ... would you like to come along with me? We need to take a battery run down to Jay Street ... that dixie cup oughta do the trick, you can use that one. Nurse Ratchet will be nice to you, you won't feel a thing. NICE paisley horsie. Give that paisley horsie a sugar cube. :)
My god, the young lad is delirious.... Or I need glasses. I see the picture - How many IRT R-Types do you know ran to Court St? Heh.
-Stef
Actually, if it was an R12, he'd have had you ... saw one of those at Court Street but it's closed now. The CC was bonus though. :)
Hmmm...an R-21 posing as an 8th Avenue train, with 14th Street as Beford Avenue on the Canarsie Line.
Is this in a parallel universe?
Someone has seen "Money Train" one time too many.:-)
Oh stop it! I'm getting ready to do a double take here..... You gonna miss those old babies?
-Stef
What the hell?
:-o AndrewJust try and find the responses!!!!!
What's the matter? Can't find me?
How could a (CC) train go to Court Street?
:-) Andrew
Verrry carefully. 8=)
Peace,
ANDEE
The old reverse-move-at-Hoyt-Schermerhorn trick.
Hey EngineBrake!!!! I thought you worked at 207th....sorry, it was my error. One more day of 'Boolean Adgelbrah'.....one more and I explode. CI Peter
Room # 237 Electronics TA Style. CI Peter
I passed that room the other day on the way to RM 211 Trainning "Right to know".
That wonderfull CDRom 'Right to Know Nothing' with Laurel and Hardy!!! Another obsolescent TA thing....my partner couldn't miss me banging on the desk shouting 'Your wrong, your wrong.' That was at least entertaining for half a day. CI Peter
"Sexual Harassment" lecture yet? An obligatory insult to BOTH genders in that state-sponsored woohoo ... I could have made a fortune coming up with a better training tape called "Ya don't sheet where you eet!" on a completely different course ... but I digress. (anagram please, "Special High Intensity Training" TA style) ...
Good 'ing ... my night of "spare tire duty" has ended, yours is just beginning. Set aside a control stand and a brake stand plus a handle in my memory. A redbird ain't an R9, but redbird stands are comparable for my BVE fantasy. Heh. Wish there was a way without breaking da rules of "theft of NY State garbage is a felony." I know a guy who got 3 years for "stealing" coffee-stained copier paper out of a dumpster at the Empire State Plaza in Smallbany ... wowsers ... as they said in 'Pigmeat' Markum's "Here come da judge," "EVERYBODY gonna do some time TODAY" ... but man, HeyPaul CANNOT be left as the ONLY frother with a "radar O'Reilly" (who shipped home an entire JEEP in *M*A*S*H) cab of his own. Ain't right. :)
Got a little lecture about the sexual harassment thing....story was about Welfare mothers working off their 'dues' looking for a bailout at the expense of a TA employee who had to pay 4K in legal bills.
D.C. Transit May Go Retro
Streetcar Revival Considered 40 Years After Departure
By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, January 21, 2002; Page B01
For nearly a century, streetcars clattered along steel tracks dug into the broad boulevards of the District and its suburbs, one of the most extensive trolley systems in the country.
Congress killed the cream and green trolleys in January 1962, replacing them with diesel buses that promised a modern way to get around the city.
But the explosion of downtown traffic, the pollution belched by buses and the difficulty of traveling across town on a hub-and-spoke subway system have forced city leaders to reconsider.
On the 40th anniversary of the last trolley's final trip in the District, officials are looking to the past for a solution for the future: They want to revive the electric streetcar. And they have identified three possible routes.
They are a north-south route that would run from Silver Spring on Georgia Avenue to the Waterfront Metro station before turning east to the Potomac Avenue Metro station; a crosstown route from Woodley Park through U Street to the Minnesota Avenue Metro station; and an east-west route from Georgetown along M Street to the new convention center.
"It's interesting how the world turns," said Mahlon "Lon" Anderson, of AAA, an automobile advocate and unlikely booster of the trolley idea. "When they were eliminated, they were seen as a nuisance. And today, they're seen as quaint and charming and good for urban transit."
The District's revived interest in trolleys comes during a national renaissance of streetcars, also known as light rail. In 1975, seven cities operated light-rail systems. Today, that number is 19, with 10 extensions or systems under construction. An additional 43 systems are proposed or have been approved in places as diverse as Arizona and Hawaii. Even in New York, the U.S. city best served by transit, residents want a river-to-river trolley to link the East Village, the West Village and Greenwich Village.
"It's not just in the U.S.; it's worldwide," said Tom Larwin, general manager of the transit system in San Diego, which was built in 1981 and was the first in the new wave of U.S. light-rail systems. "Light rail offers a lot of capacity, speed and performance like your Metro, but you can do it a lot cheaper."
The federal government has backed the District's dreams with $750,000 in research money. Metro engineers, asked by the city to study trolleys, spent two years analyzing 13 potential routes and have narrowed the choices to the three corridors deemed worthy of more analysis.
This week, city officials will brief the D.C. Council and launch a series of public meetings in neighborhoods along the proposed lines. The next step is to seek federal funds for preliminary engineering.
The District's project -- its first proposal for new transit in a generation -- coincides with plans by Maryland to build a light-rail Purple Line from New Carrollton to Bethesda and studies by Arlington County into light-rail possibilities along Columbia Pike and Route 1.
"We're interested in making connections with light rail that Maryland and Virginia are considering," said Alex Eckmann, administrator in the D.C. Office of Mass Transit.
As a means of transportation, light rail falls somewhere between bus and subway. It consists of rail cars that can run alone or as a train at average speeds of 10 mph, compared with 8 mph for buses and 27 mph for subways, according to P. Takis Salpeas, of Metro's department of transit system development. Stops are typically closer together than in a subway.
Light rail runs on electricity, and most cars draw power from a pole that connects with overhead wires.
In Washington, a congressional ban on overhead wires in the heart of the city poses a special problem.
The old streetcar companies buried the power source under the track bed. Dan Tangherlini, the District's director of transportation, is hoping for a modern-day solution that will not significantly add to the cost.
The idea of a streetcar revival excites some Washingtonians, who wistfully recall the trolleys, post their memories on a Web site and make pilgrimages to the National Capital Trolley Museum in Colesville to ride a refurbished car around a small track in the woods.
Anderson, 53, remembers vividly when his grandmother took him and his sister to ride the last trolleys on Jan. 28, 1962.
"She told me, 'Mahlon, you mark my words: Washington will rue the day it eliminated trolley service,' " he recalled.
Bringing light rail to crowded city streets might mean the loss of on-street parking or a travel lane for cars, but that does not trouble Anderson. "This may be one more tool to help us move people in a very, very congested area," he said. "If it comes at the cost of some automobile traffic, so be it."
Metro's senior managers say they have no bias against trolleys, but many believe that the best solution to crosstown travel is building another main subway line through the heart of the District.
"Heavy rail makes more sense for places like M Street," said Royce Drake, a Metro engineer leading the District's light-rail studies. "That's just my opinion. And I recognize that these are decisions that are going to be made by the political leaders."
Peter C. Kohler, a transportation historian and author of a new book about the waning years of the District streetcar, is blunt:
"I don't see Metro as having any kind of commitment, emotionally and financially, to surface transportation," Kohler said. "Metro is heavy rail."
Tangherlini said Metro's "organizational inertia" is a challenge. For example, Metro engineers say they require a width of 24 feet to lay a double track for light rail -- which would require the removal of on-street parking and maybe a travel lane and part of the sidewalk on some streets. But a new light-rail system in Kenosha, Wis., used only 16 feet to build its double track -- making it easier to fit on a street.
"There are solutions that other cities are exploring," said Tangherlini, who keeps a model of a D.C. Transit streetcar in his office.
"We have huge internal circulation needs," Tangherlini said, adding that trolleys could replace shuttle buses run by federal agencies to ferry workers across the city.
One of the biggest light-rail successes is in San Francisco, which opened a line in 1995 that runs vintage trolleys painted the colors of companies that ran streetcars in various cities.
The historic F line was an instant hit with tourists and trolley buffs, and commuters also embraced it. When the single trolley line replaced two bus lines, ridership nearly tripled, said Ronald Niewiarowski, a planner at the San Francisco Municipal Railway.
The San Francisco line is so popular that volunteers sweep and wipe the cars at the end of each day. "We have no other line where people volunteer to clean our cars," Niewiarowski said. "The operation is a gem. It's a jewel."
Tangherlini sees the potential for a historic D.C. route for tourists but says the city's first obligation is to transport locals. Most District residents ride Metrobus, not Metrorail, because the bus network reaches far more neighborhoods than the subway, he said. Those bus riders need a faster way to get around, he said.
The corridor with the most promise appears to be Georgia Avenue. The congested boulevard, once a major streetcar line, is one of the city's busiest bus routes.
As many as 45,300 riders a day would board trolleys on the corridor, according to planning estimates. People who would not ride buses would ride a streetcar, experts say. It's easy to board, and it has a sense of fun, they say.
What's more, "There's something reassuring about a streetcar line," Kohler said. "It's permanent. It's a commitment to downtown. It defines cities and neighborhoods."
Metro officials have only rough estimates for the cost of building a light-rail system and point out that variables -- such as whether the trolleys would run down the middle of the street or alongside it -- have yet to be determined.
District officials are counting on federal financial help.
"If it were entirely a matter of local resources, this would just be a paper exercise," said D.C. Council member Jim Graham (D-Ward 1), who is a vice chairman of the Metro board of directors. "But it isn't. The federal government has a very important role to play here."
Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.) said she will push for the project when the nation's transportation spending plan is reauthorized next year. Norton, who rode the streetcars as a teenager, said she is not driven by sepia-toned memories.
"I don't want to romanticize the old streetcars," said Norton, who lived near the Georgia Avenue line as a girl. "I was very pleased to see them go. They held up traffic and had so many stops that if you wanted to go downtown to Hecht's, it was one of the longest rides in captivity. Everybody rode the streetcars, and it took forever to get there."
But times have changed, she said. "I'm very much for funding light rail for air-quality reasons and because of the inefficiencies of the buses. We need to move back to the future and try the light rail."
© 2002 The Washington Post Company (Reprinted without permission)
You beat me to it!
I wonder if the Fine Arts Commision will let them put overhead wires outside of the CBD.
The old DC Transit trolleys did switch to overhead wire outside of the central area of DC. "Plow pits" were located at the transition point between overhead and conduit - one location was on the 30 Line on Wisconsin Ave. in Georgetown. That's why to a new visitor to DC it was a strange sight to see trolleys operating downtown with their poles down.
right and the "conduit" or plow system became a serious liability when salt became common as a snow melt technique producing an efficient conductor flooding the conduit and shorting out the system. The classic was a page one photo on The Evening Star showing a lineup of 'dead in the water' trolleys on Florida Ave.
And that's why New York (Manhattan, specifically) was the only other US city to use conduit-powered trolleys instead of overhead wire. It was due to a city ordinance passed after the infamous 1888 Blizzard that downed overhead wires all over New York.
The Manhattan conduit trolley lines stopped running much earlier than DC (June 1947). These routes also had the same problem as DC - rain water, melted snow and ice, road salt, and any kind of refuse would collect in the conduit and potentially cause electrical short circuits and service disruptions.
Go to 125th Street under the Riverside Drive viaduct if you want to see these conduits. They're in a traffic island where I happened to have a flat tire changed last month.
Washington Post:
If you don't get it, you don't get it.
I have a home subscription.
;)
Phil Hom
Stafford Virginia
LOL.
I do too, I just didn't get to SubTalk until a few minutes after you.
It seems that photographer always gets the transit photos. He did mine for the Metro at 25, the first flight out of National post 9/11, and now this.
Here's an interesting quotation from the article:
"Tangherlini said Metro's "organizational inertia" is a challenge. For example, Metro engineers say they require a width of 24 feet to lay a double track for light rail -- which would require the removal of on-street parking and maybe a travel lane and part of the sidewalk on some streets. But a new light-rail system in Kenosha, Wis., used only 16 feet to build its double track -- making it easier to fit on a street."
I find this interesting because the Kenosha system is entirely single-track, the only exception being a siding about 100' long - and the siding isn't in a street, it's on the side of the road!
Frank Hicks
classic misinformation
What is really unfortunate is the fact that the overhead wire ban and conduit requirements may be considered enough of a problem to sink the idea when it gets to feasability and cost studies. Of course, one could modify the ban to permit streetcar wire but...
-Robert King
Maybe it's time for a return to battery cars, or even soda motors!!!
:-)
Frank Hicks
With the hills on Georgia Ave is that a problem for climbing if there is no cable? Can Light Rail make it up the hills?
You must have missed 100 Years of Capital Traction. Cable left DC after the 1898 powerhouse fire on the 14th Street line. The slot in the electric era was for the current collector (called a plow).
LRV's have no problems on hills. Neither did electric streetcars.
What If...
What if there were no subways in New York
and the entire city was a blank canvas on which to create!
And if you had unlimited funds with no NIMBYs to fight against.
This is what I came up with NYC Subways 2020 / WhatIf.
Elias
Message Recieved:
Sorry, this site is temporarily unavailable!
The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer.
Is that some kind of bad omen on the future of subway expansion?
:)
Mark
I admire your Idea but like the MTA you forgot 1 thing. A route to Staten Island.
LOL poor Staten Island
Hey, I was in, but now I lost access, what's going on?
Geocities ... part of the price of "free websites" is that if it generates any traffic, they want you to move up to the "pay tier" or it goes byebye for an hour until the meter resets. Days of NASDAQ freebies is over ...
"Geocities ... part of the price of "free websites" is that if it generates any traffic, they want you to move up to the "pay tier" or it goes byebye for an hour "
I just found that out. Kinda stupid.
I have also set the site up on Tripod. We will find out if they can do any better.
The URL on Tripod is http://subways2020.tripod.com
or on GeoCities http://www.geocities.com/subways2020
Sorry about the bother. I must have run up all of my bandwidth just testing the fool thing. But if they think I'm actually going to *buy* space with them... Well, I'm more likely to host the site on my own computers first!
Elias
Heh. Well, tripod's lit ... geochitties ... well ...
There are some CHEAP webhosting sites out there - what I don't get is so many of the ISP's used to give you a home page as well if you asked for it as part of the service itself. I guess that too has gone the way of Enronasdaq too ...
"so many of the ISP's used to give you a home page "
Yes, we have a very LARGE website hosted by our ISP, and it ain't free either, the service is great and you can deal with the boss there personally anytime you want. But I can not host "hobby" projects on this server without buying another account, which I cannot easily do.
Soo... I use the free services for the hobby stuff.
Elias
Got it ... well, I've been known to stuff the occasional picture on our own company's server but I get funny looks. :)
Did you see my website (it had a lot of pictures from a nighttime PCC fan trip if that helps) before it quietly disappeared from NBCi, formerly Xoom? When that happened, I thought about hosting it on the 'server' for our home network which is always on and connected to the internet making it an ideal host - so one would think. But, the dynamically assigned and occasionally changing IP address for the internet connection kind of gets in the way... So I'm looking at putting it back online elsewhere.
-Robert King
What are .est files? I can't get anything to open them on my Mac, not even the latest Graphics Converter.
"What are .est files? I can't get anything to open them on my Mac"
.est files are generated by Microsoft Streets and Trips 2002.
The program provides the maps, the scaleability, and drawing capibilities, the .est files provide the routes that were drawn on the maps. You need to have Streets and Trips 2002 (About $40.00) to view, work with, and or draw maps.
Elias
Is there a LINUX version? (of course not) ...
That is a good map. You must have put a lot of work into it. Now, let me question it :-)
Why, if you are using a blank canvas, did you pretty much use all the same Brooklyn routes that already exist? I think today there doesn't need to be many lines converging at Coney Island. The station isn't really that busy as back in the day, so one line terminating there should be enough.
As for the way local and express are set up, I think that it should be a modified way the IND does it on Queens Blvd: Have 2,3 or 4 two track lines start out at the east (or north in the bronx) end of the borough, then have them meet in the middle of the borough to make a four track trunk line, with two lines local and two express. Each borough should have at least two trunk lines by the time they cross the east river. Then once they get into Manhattan, they all become locals in the downtown and midtown areas, with expresses in between the two districts. Then, they continue on into one of the other trunk lines in another borough or terminate downtown.
I found this to be very cool! I like a lot of the ideas. I have some similar ones, myself. Now I know what software I can use to do my own Fantasy Map!
I'm sure this would be very fun to see as a BAHN layout.
I like the idea to have non-stop expresses between Downtown and Midtown, even skipping 14th St, and I like the idea to give Lower Manhattan some more expresses. I also like the idea of having a Madison Ave line and another crosstown line in 23rd St, as well as a way to get from Queens to Upper Manhattan directly.
I see what you're getting at in saying that once a line enters the city as a trunk line, it leaves the same way, without switching. However, I think switching is a necessity to create variety. I mean imagine if in today's Queens Blvd line, all the trains went to one line, 6th Ave or Bway or 8th Ave, or if all the trains out of Coney Island all went to the same Manhattan trunk line?
I don't know... I think trasferring to another line is far more efficient and less confusing than waiting for the right train at the platform. That is, as long as the transfer doesn't involve a long walkway. Having to wait for the right train on a platform basically cuts service in half on a line. I know everyone wants a one seat ride to work, but that just isn't really feasable.
You beat me to it!
I wonder if the Fine Arts Commision will let them put overhead wires outside of the CBD.
The old DC Transit trolleys did switch to overhead wire outside of the central area of DC. "Plow pits" were located at the transition point between overhead and conduit - one location was on the 30 Line on Wisconsin Ave. in Georgetown. That's why to a new visitor to DC it was a strange sight to see trolleys operating downtown with their poles down.
right and the "conduit" or plow system became a serious liability when salt became common as a snow melt technique producing an efficient conductor flooding the conduit and shorting out the system. The classic was a page one photo on The Evening Star showing a lineup of 'dead in the water' trolleys on Florida Ave.
And that's why New York (Manhattan, specifically) was the only other US city to use conduit-powered trolleys instead of overhead wire. It was due to a city ordinance passed after the infamous 1888 Blizzard that downed overhead wires all over New York.
The Manhattan conduit trolley lines stopped running much earlier than DC (June 1947). These routes also had the same problem as DC - rain water, melted snow and ice, road salt, and any kind of refuse would collect in the conduit and potentially cause electrical short circuits and service disruptions.
Go to 125th Street under the Riverside Drive viaduct if you want to see these conduits. They're in a traffic island where I happened to have a flat tire changed last month.
Washington Post:
If you don't get it, you don't get it.
I have a home subscription.
;)
Phil Hom
Stafford Virginia
LOL.
I do too, I just didn't get to SubTalk until a few minutes after you.
It seems that photographer always gets the transit photos. He did mine for the Metro at 25, the first flight out of National post 9/11, and now this.
does any one know the per cent grade of the "N"
train between East River and Queensboro Plaza?
is it the stepest on the system? if not where?
does any one know where to find the track layout
for GCR for Metro North? I realize it may be on ntk basis.
Drtchkn had a great photo for the contest.
I have one in an NYC book back at home if you are willing to wait a few weeks.
I went out on my monthly excursion this weekend and can report that all trackwork is in place and fastened down. Track geometry cars can be seen at several points. The new trackwork at the junction is now level and properly gauged. I took a head-on zoom picture of a northbound train as it turned off along the original route; the new spur track continues in a straight line from the junction switch. Last month, the junction switch where the shuttle leg joins the new spur was smothered in ballast; now the ballast has been removed to the extent that it no longer comes up to the tops of the rails. No new catenary has been strung, although all towers are now in place. Signal flashers have been installed at grade crossings, and it appears that there will be gates as well. There will be a canopy of sorts leading from the boarding area at the Union Station stop to the stairs and ADA ramp to the passenger tunnel leading to the depot.
The original trackwork was cut out only at the two spots where switches were installed; the sharp curve beneath the Colfax Ave. viaduct still has original track with concrete ties. Interestingly enough, concrete had originaly been poured between the ties on the slope where the original line rises from beneath the viaduct. All of that had to be chipped out when the new junction switches were installed. It's safe to assume the junction switches are currently locked and clamped in such a way that all trains must follow the original route. Work crews were out in force on Saturday, and even yesterday I saw a few workmen at the Union Station stop.
They are at Piken Yard. I saw them for there last night. 8101-8108 are also there. I did not see this anywere else on the board, so if it was posted before I am sorry for saying it again.
Robert
8101-8108 were the original 8 MU's on the 30 day test. I wonder why they brought them out of ENY to the IND's yard, maybe for further testing that cannot be done at ENY for some reason?
8109-8116, that's the next 8 cars. Any idea when they will be put into revenue service?
"8101-8108 were the original 8 MU's on the 30 day test. I wonder why they brought them out of ENY to the IND's yard, maybe for further testing that cannot be done at ENY for some reason?"
They are out of revenue service for about a month while they make upgrades based on the 30-day test. I don't exactly know what upgrades are needed after subway cars pass their initial test, but Kawasaki does so I'm not worried about it.
"8109-8116, that's the next 8 cars. Any idea when they will be put into revenue service?"
Sometime after the first set is put into permanent service. Each set needs to go under its own testing before revenue service, whether or not they will be doing that while they upgrade the first set I don't know. -Nick
I work for The New York City Fire Department's Emergency Medical Service. I have found since there are less full time Token Booth Clerks we are having more and more trouble gaining access to sick and injured people on the subways. I find this trend of moving Token Booth Clerks out of the stations disturbing. We just had a call a few days ago in subway for an unconscious person on a train and when we arrived at the station there was no clerk at the station and we were unable to gain access to the victim until the police arrived about 5 minutes later. I feel this should be a great concern to anyone who rides the subway. Rider safety must come first, but I guess the MTA does not feel that way.
thanks,
Webmaster
The FDNY EMS website
http://members.aol.com/fdnyemswebsite
We just had a call a few days ago in subway for an unconscious person on a train and when we arrived at the station there was no clerk at the station and we were unable to gain access to the victim until the police arrived about 5 minutes later.
At the risk of being a smartass ... you mean NO ONE on the EMS team had a MetroCard ???
I'd certainly be in favor of issuing EMS crews "all access" MetroCards, to be kept in the truck not on the crew. It's not really about booth clerks. It's about access through the gates. This is a very, very solvable problem.
How is an EMS crew going to fit a stretcher through a HEET?
Well once they have access to the patient and can at least give them care, by that time the police will arrive, or they can use a different exit. At least they can immediately get at the patient with the card.
Correct. Getting to the patient is the important part. We seldom use red lights, and almost never sirens once the patient is on the ambulance. Even in cardiac emergencies, if we cannot fix it on the scene, getting to a hospital DOES NOT improve your chances of survival.
Elias
Even in cardiac emergencies, if we cannot fix it on the scene, getting to a hospital DOES NOT improve your chances of survival.
Even in cases of surgical trauma like a gun shot wound?
It depends I guess on what was wrong with the person.
I'd certainly be in favor of issuing EMS crews "all access" MetroCards, to be kept in the truck not on the crew. It's not really about booth clerks. It's about access through the gates. This is a very, very solvable problem.
I'd go a step further and let the crew members carry the MetroCards for even quicker scene access. Whatever potential for abuse might exist is far outweighed by the safety issue.
If I remember correctly, fireman in Philadelphia can ride free when in uniform.
"If I remember correctly, fireman in Philadelphia can ride free when in uniform."
Only if someone is there to let them on.
A metrocard would get EMS into and out of a station. But getting their equipment thru would be a trouble. Not to mention getting the aided person out. What you going to do? Ask an unconsious person to wake up a moment to walk out a turnstile?
A metrocard would get EMS into and out of a station. But getting their equipment thru would be a trouble.
Not if the station is equipped with AutoGate, and the EMS are issued the appropriate Metrocards to operate them.
Couldn't the EMS be given keys to the slam gates (or whatever they're called now)? Or are there no keys to the slam gates at all?
Can of rancid worms!!! Every emergency service worker should always have the necessary tools and safety equipment in possesion, including flashlights/helmets/vests. Period. Don't hold up the MTA for this condition!!! I'm not RCI but I still carry basic tools and all the keys to MAKE TRAINS GO in the event an emergency takes place while I'm present. It is up to you to make the condition known to your superiors about lack of access...that five minutes could mean life or death. Despite the 'hindsighting' that took place after 911, comm systems in NYC still cannot share or join in an emergency. We all have learned to improvise. 'The Boldest, the Bravest, the Strongest and the Safest' must work together. CI Peter
Here in Sweden, at least one of the gates in the ticket both area must be unlocked if the entrance is unattended. The rescue personnel should always be able to gain access to the station and/or trains (perhaps carrying very heavy equipment with them) in case of an emergency or accident.
Of cause this gives some people a chance of gaining access to the trains without paying the fare, but this is a cost I think one must take. Safety first, at all times
/SweSub
This is NYC and NOT Sweden. An unlocked gate would probably cause a 'Niagra Falls' of cheapos looking to skirt the fare. CI Peter
How does it work in case of a big fire or another major accident like a person under a train, derailment or similar, where there is a need for some heavy equipment on the site?
Have for example the fire department keys or metrocards to let them self’s in, or do they simply have to pick a attended entrance when they arrive, or wait for the police/TA personnel to open up for them?
In this case I’m talking about stations placed beneath street level.
In New York City, we simply do not have the advanced telecommunications that you have in Sweden. We do not have interagency cross linking, we do not have wireless priority, there is no access for heavy equipment under the ground and tools one would expect handy for any emergency simply do not exist. There aren't any CO2 fire extinguishers handy nor Halon either. When a matter comes up, you either have a Transit radio that works or take your chances on a telephone and wait. Simple and stupid, isn't it? It is far more important to set up a ticket booth for visitors to the WTC site than dump all the obsolete radios in the Hudson and enter the new century.
If there is no one at the location to let us in we have to wait for PD. If we need to call someone for backup like FD or PD we have to go outside the station because the radios don't work down there.
I am a Station Agent and am concerned about this event. Please e-mail me off-site. I have some questions since all stations should have at least one full-time booth.
Not to be on the side of the T.A. But doesnt EMS know about the colored globes? Green means full time token booth. It makes sense to look for the main entrance to any station rather then the first one you see.
A follow-up-
I e-mailed their webmaster asking for the name of the station and their webmaster did not remember the name of the station.
I was given the borough and the time but there are still many stations in the outer boroughs. Without a station there is nothing that can be done.
I am inclined to class this as a misunderstanding for lack of facts.
To reiterate--every station has at least one 24 hour booth which is always open. Sometimes a s/a needs a comfort break and no other person is around. In that case we call our field office to request a comfort and they will usually (if the facillity room is near the booth) allow us to take the booth key and leave the booth. We are to call the field office upon our return.
Perhaps the problem happened while the s/a was taking an authorized comfort. Until we have facts there is nothing that can be done.
I think I need to explain a few things since there are so many questions. First there are a lot of part time (Where the booth is not manned 24/7) stations in the New York City Subway System. We are not issued keys to get into the subways system, and the FDNY EMS supervisors don't have them. We are not issued metro cards so we cannot get in that way. What we do is call for the police and wait for them to get to the location and open the gate. There are a few problems with EMS getting to people who are injured in the NYC subway system this is only one of them.
Thanks
Webmaster
FDNY EMS website
http://members.aol.com/FDNYEMSwebsite
I think I need to explain a few things since there are so many questions. First there are a lot of part time (Where the booth is not manned 24/7) stations in the New York City Subway System. We are not issued keys to get into the subways system, and the FDNY EMS supervisors don't have them. We are not issued metro cards so we cannot get in that way. What we do is call for the police and wait for them to get to the location and open the gate. There are a few problems with EMS getting to people who are injured in the NYC subway system this is only one of them.
Once again, that's an easily solved problem. Give EMS crews keys and MC's. Problem solved.
That is why we need humans instead of closing the booths.
If station booths were closed and the turnstiles replaced with HEETs EMS would really be restricted.
ALL NYC/NY State Emergency Service Providers need a universal ID card to gain access or a gassed up K Saw. Sometimes, when I think my experience is limited...and I look at what others are lacking...I then realise I can provide so much by having just a little. I wouldn't want a fireman or a policeman to attempt to do just once what comes with my work everyday. It isn't a matter of job preservation but experience and common sense...the subways are dangerous. Over time, hopefully, EM will 'see the light.' CI Peter
Instead of telling us - why aren't you going to the news media?
All you really have to do is have some one in your union tell the TV and newspapers that you can't respond to the injured in the subway and watch how fast you will get results from the TA.
i was reading the article of Union square because i found out my dad still has a copy. Also on this websites pics i notice motormen had no uniforms then. so why did they change?
To make them easier to spot by cops when they ran away after a wreck I suppose ...
I doubt it was related to Union Square. If anything, it might've been after that kid stole an A train up at 207th and took it for a joyride.
TA management probably got tired of having the motormen dress better than them!
It wasn't a joyride. He ran a revenue trip on the "A" all the way to Far Rockaway and back. However, he tripped a stopper on the way back. The TA police accompanied him to Jay Street for an urine test --and that's how he was discovered.
Michael
If there's any article, can you show me?
TA police do not escort an employee to Jay St. A TA supervisor does this, depending on the time of day and the severity of the incident.
Why not wear uniforms? I like to be able to identify on-duty employees and I am sure other people do, too. Otherwise, most of the people here would be mistaken for employees since we know so much.
oh gag me. nobody cares when Amtrak, NJ Transit and LIRR Engineers wear no uniforms not to mention they make more $$. thats what makes me desire the Railroad world rather than the subway. Underground with uniforms in sweltering heat or above ground without uniforms crusin at 70mph. besides i know Motormen who have 89 senority who remember the non uniform days
I prefer wearing a uniform compared to my regular clothes. Why dirty up and ruin my own clothes? That and with time, my uniform has become equally comfortable.
Those people aren't really visible to the riding public. An NYC T/O is and at stations when he opens his window, is subject to being asked questions. He needs a uniform in my opinion.
Always playing the devil's advocate, Mr. Natural sez why not play "spot the geese" instead? We could make the subways a mandatory suit, tie and shoes event. Anyone not wearing tails must be TA meat. :)
I always got to thinking anyone could have swiped motormens' tools and taken off with a train (as someone else mentioned with the kid doing his thing on the A train).
Out here in California, none of the train operators on Metrolink or Caltrain (both heavy rail commuters) wear anyy sort of identification, never mind a uniform. usualyl the way to tell the engineer on a Metrolink train is to look for the grubbiest person on board.
The LIRR T/O's don't wear any real identification, and the end cabs (at the terminal stops) are sometimes open....all they would need are the T/O equipment. And there aren't any trip cocks to worry about either.
(Anyone who has operated an "Acela Regional" on MSTS for around 1000 hours [including me] could operate a LIRR train)
So they look neat in the LINE UP.
"Yeah, thats the one, the one with the Lionel suit!"
avid
Here's an interesting quotation from the article:
"Tangherlini said Metro's "organizational inertia" is a challenge. For example, Metro engineers say they require a width of 24 feet to lay a double track for light rail -- which would require the removal of on-street parking and maybe a travel lane and part of the sidewalk on some streets. But a new light-rail system in Kenosha, Wis., used only 16 feet to build its double track -- making it easier to fit on a street."
I find this interesting because the Kenosha system is entirely single-track, the only exception being a siding about 100' long - and the siding isn't in a street, it's on the side of the road!
Frank Hicks
classic misinformation
From my understanding, a battery exploded in a shop when an R-142 was being serviced. The explosion was said to have damaged the shop inferstructure and injured some maintainance personnel. What shop did this happen at and what caused the battery to blow up?
Read the thread on this subject that has been underway for a few days now.
David
Several posts recently have suggested that once you use an unlimited metrocard in a subway, you can't use it again in ANY subway turnstile for 18 minutes.
My impression is definitely that you can't use it again in the SAME station for 18 minutes, but you can use it again in another station. I have used it in GCT, taken a very quick trip to Union Square, gone out for 2 minutes for an errand, and gone back in, maybe 10 minutes after my usage at GCT, and it worked again.
Does anyone know what is the actual algorithm, as opposed to what the MTA might say?
I think you have it correct. The reason you can't use it in the same station is to prevent somebody with an unlimited ride card passing it over the turnstile for somebody to use. This would allow two people to ride for the price of one.
Michael
I think you can't use the card at all for 7 minutes. I've seen Reduced Fare Cards rejected in a short span because of constant usage. The driver let the person go that one time.
If I'm not mistaken it's 18 minutes at the SAME station that you can't use it. It can be used within 18 minutes at OTHER stations.
Does the J/M/Z side of Fulton count as the same station as the 2/3 side of Fulton? There was a time I swiped into the 2/3, realized I forgot something, went out, got it, came right back, and it didn't work. I went to the J/M/Z side and it still didn't work so I walked up to Chambers. Just wondering if that a "same station".
"Just wondering if that a "same station"."
Well, since it didn't work, and since all the trains depart from that station (just in different areas/levels), then indeed it does count as the same station. -Nick
Yes, a single station complex (with free transfers) is treated as a single station.
If you swipe into the north end of the F/V mezzanine at 16/6, go back outside, walk to 12/7, and try to enter the south end of the 1/2/3 station, you won't be admitted. If, instead, you walk the shorter distance to 18/7, you'll be allowed to enter.
The regulation was modified in Sept. 99, to allow entry into any other stat. than the original port of entry in less than 13-18 min. Also, they liberalized the use of the unlimited on the branches of the M14 w/o lockout. Please see my post in the Archives concerning that.
It's 18 minutes ANYWHERE
"It's 18 minutes ANYWHERE"
I have experimental evidence that contradicts this. More than once I've used it at a different station in less than 18 minute. Was my experience just a sometimes repeatable fluke?
My evidence comes from having used it. On a regular basis.
You appear to be correct. Other posters have said with great confidence that even at a different station you have to wait.
However, I tried an experiment with a Fun Pass the other day. I went in and out at Broad St and in less than 4 minutes I was able to successfully enter the 1/2 Wall St station.
The 18 minute delay should apply at the same subway station and bus route. The purpose of the delay is to prevent an unlimited ride card from being used by more than one person at the same location.
Michael
Someone with 5 minutes to spare could test this by swiping it at one station, exiting immediately, and walking to a nearby station. One example that comes to mind would be 34th/7th and either 34th/8th or 34th/6th. It would certainly be under 18 minutes to walk one block, and railfans everywhere would have a definitive answer.
Unfortunately, I don't get unlimited cards, so I can't do it myself.
I sometimes am forced to switch from the 7th Ave to the 8th Avenue station at 34th street due to service disruptions. The 8th Avenue turnstiles will accept my swipe even though fewer than 18 minutes have passed since I first entered (and subsequently left) the system at 7th Avenue.
It's 18 minutes. ANYWHERE!
Sorry, douce man is incorrect. My experience using hte unlimited card is that it can't be used at the same station within the 18 minute time frame.
This is supported by the MTA's official terms of the unlimited metrocard:
Restriction: Unlimited-Ride MetroCard cannot be used again at the same subway station or same bus route for 18 minutes.
(source: http://www.mta.info/metrocard/terms.htm#unlimited)
Only once did a turnstile (unjustifiably) reject my weekly unlimited card with the 'too soon' explanation, so I went upstairs and boarded a bus. The farebox accepted the card with no trouble.
Even though the weather could've been better we all had a great time today. Especially the 5 train ride from 42nd street/GCT to Dyre ave which rocked!
The rail hobby stores were pretty interesting too. It was a shame to see how the freight RR's in Sunset Park is being neglected though.
Well Pizza Hut near GCT was closed, so I went to Wendy's near 3rd and 59th.
Unfortunately because of escalator work the 3rd ave entrance to the Lex/N/R/W station will be closed from tomorrow till the fall, which will be VERY inconvenient. There were signs all over the place. That lex/60th street station is gonna be chaos come tomorrow.
I took a W to Queensboro plaza and got a 7X for an uneventful ride to Flushing. The N21 was a slow, struggling Cummins, but fortunately I made it home! :-)
Again had a great time, nice seeing you all!
Indeed it was a great trip!! This was my first subtalk field trip that involved the nyc subway (I participated in a "mini" Boston T Party this past fall), so I got to meet many subtalkers. it was great to meet everyone, and to be with such knowledgeable subway people while riding! I may be going back to Boston tomorrow, but I hope to make another field trip in the near future.
To finish off what we did on monday, after Lunch, the train stores and a trip up to fyre avenue, we took the #5 down to 180th street. Some people took photos while we waited for an R142 "2" train. We took it down to 42nd street,and went our seperate ways after that. Special thanks to Thurston (and whoever else) for organizing this trip! :-) -Nick
As John said the day started out a little wet, but improved by the time we got to the Bronx.
There was a dozen of us: Mark; FaxMan; Q-Dash 7; Sparky; Howard Fien; BMTman; BMT Jeff; RIP Hope Tunnel Mike; Lou fro Brooklyn; Nick & my grandson.
BMTman-Doug & came up with the idea, then built a "core" group. Once we had that, the trip was on.
Here's a thumb nail of the trip.
I arrived on the LIRR at Atlantic Ave. We boarded a M at Pacific Street & went to 36th Street where we walked to NY Cross Harbor. We waited at 36th & 4th Ave for a photo op of a W or M at the connection with the SKB (South Brooklyn RxR) ... 3 came at once. Then we went down to 1st Ave and the NYCH property. Back to 36th & a N express to Pacific.
At Atlantic Ave. we picked up our Branford mentor, Sparky. Now it was a 1 for one stop then a transfer to a 4 to the Transit Museum at Grand Central Station. We picked up a couple more, then up stairs for lunch at Roy's (Justin now has seen the stars & clock at GCS, walked on 5th and Madison Ave, as well as has memories of trading MetroCards in the basement of the World Trade Centre ... and you thought this trip was only about rapid transit).
The main group headed off to the Red Caboose while Justin & I went back to pick up anyone else at GCS, there were three waiting. We did both RxR stores on 45 Street, then used the 47th St entrance to GCS (long empty passageways).
We caught a #5 Red Bird & took her all the way to Dyre Ave. We walked around the platform for a while (Justin make up some more snow balls), then we took the same train set back to 180th. Three from the group wanted to see the old NY & W station, the rest of us caught a R-142 #2 down the West side. At 42nd all accept Justin & I bailed out. We two left the R-142 at 34th. There he wanted a ice cream, I got a beer & caught the 4:16 home (with a CHANGE at Jamaica). On board we met "Rail Man". The Conductor asked Justin if he knew Batman, Superman, Spiderman or Railman < G >.
It was a very nice day of riding the rails, just for fun, in the company of some friends !
For those that missed this trip, we'll probaly do one for President's Day, so stay tuned !
Mr rt__:^)
I certainly had a good time on the trip. I hope to do it again on President's Day. BTW My handle is no longer BMTJeff. It is #3 West End Jeff (Oops!, you made a mistake.)
#3 West End Jeff
Some peoples old handles stick with you, like the Train Dude who is now the BMTman.
Mr rt__:^)
I'm sure that it won't be easy for some of you to forget my old handle. Please remember that I'm #3 West End Jeff.
#3 West End Jeff
[Some peoples old handles stick with you, like the Train Dude who is now the BMTman.]
Mr. T must be smoking some wacky weed or something if he thinks my old handle was Train Dude????
Train Dude would be insulted by such a statement.
BMTman
Can Mr T roll another one and pass it through the crack into the cab please? :)
I see you went and mentioned 'crack' in your post. Is that a hint that wacky tabacy is just ONE of your vises?
Sorry, the devil made me do it...
;-D
Wait. Is the BMTman now a Train Dude, or is the Train Dude now a BMTman? I'm kinda lost here....
-Stef
They're BOTH LIRR meat ... stand down, soldier! :)
This sounds like the Heypaul escapade a while back, when there was suspicion of a Heypaul imposter.:-)
If you recall, it was that incident, among other things, which prompted our webmaster to institute passwords.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm VERRRY "lost"
NOT
PEACE,
ANDEE
Well EXCUSE ME (bet you guys don't even remember how popularized that phrase).
Anyhow, How quickly we forget ... it was Sub Dude.
Mr rt__:^)
As always, great to get together. As usual, we didn't let the rain stop us. I didn't make the morning Brooklyn segment, but joined up at Grand Central. Now I know there are bathrooms upstairs by the Station Master's office, which is a lot more convenient- and cleaner- than having to trek downstairs to the eateries.
That Red Caboose was incredible! That must be a lot of work to recreate all those tiny scale models and paint them in the appropriate colors. Someone had a sense of humor, witness the 'graffiti' on a couple of sets. Ah, what I could do if I had a house- and a large basement- and unlimited money to burn-
We lucked into a Redbird '5' as soon as we got back into the subway. We all survived the move between cars all the way to the front through a very speedy express run from GC to 59th. One can only wonder what the other passengers must've thought to see a bunch of guys parading through like that. Maybe we're better off NOT knowing what anyone thought!
The sun made a welcome reappearance once we surfaced in the Bronx. Even though I've had the railfan window for the Dyre line many times, there's always something new. I never realized the tracks extended far enough north past the platform to store a whole trainset. I also never realized how badly rusted the Redbirds were until some of us pointed it out.
Unfortunately, the September 11 changes have made the Manhattan '2' a pale local shadow of itself. Only on the very long, curved tunnel under Central Park is there any great speed. The automated strip map and announcements on the 142s have pretty much gone to waste, although the one we were on correctly announced the additional local stops. The map was variously completely unlit, fully lit, correctly flashing the next stop, or flashing an incorrect next stop.
After bailing a Times Square, I sought relief at the Marriott Marquis, then headed back to Queens on a mostly empty 'E' train. The activities of the day swayed me to doze off from 5th to Roosevelt, which isn't easy on an R-32 bench.
Nice job as always, Thurston.
[After bailing a Times Square, I sought relief at the Marriott Marquis]
That's one of those little know great spots to hang out. I assume you went up to the third floor and sat in the atrium. For those that don't know the building is in the form of a triangle inside with elevator shafts in the middle. There a bar right there in the middle with atmosphere also most as good as a subway tunnel. Prices are high but I only buy one. If your doing a tourist thing, let them buy and if they bought one of those watches on the street, they'll think time stands still in there < G >
Mr rt__:^)
Do you mean like the gold Rollex I bought for $5.00 in New York last Novemeber ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Well if it said "Rollex" you got what you paid for!
Yes, that's right, I bought it together with a pair of Goochy shoes :)
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon, As long it's a conversation piece that gives you fond memories. Just don't let anyone get too close a look at it < G >
Mr rt
It started out a nice gold colour but its all gone black now. Tells the right time twice a day though. Both EST and GMT in fact every time. I might even buy another next November when I do Subway Tour No 9. I should have a few more days this time.
Simon
Swindon UK
Looking forward to giving you a LIFT to the UNDERGROUND < G >
Mr rt__:^)
I certainly had fun riding the train of "Redbirds" on the #5 line. I also found the announcements interesting on the train of R-142s that we had on the #2. It gets interesting when they don't work right.
#3 West End Jeff
It was a nice long ride on a R-142. You need that to help you decide weather or not you like them ... they're OK.
The LIRR & Red Bird rides were FUN, maybe a Slant 40, a R-32 or R-38 in February ?
Mr rt__:^)
I find that the R-142s are nice cars. They probably feel slower than they really are because they're smoother and quieter riding than the "Redbirds". This will make it a little easier on me overall. My only carps are that they need to fix the automatic announcements which don't always work properly, and the door chimes which are too weak and pitched too low in my own opinion. They could also improve the railfan windows which aren't all that good.
#3 West End Jeff
The announcements on the 2 haven't worked right in Manhattan since 9/11.
Just curious since its been a month, how is it? It is a proven way of lowering the crowds on the Queens Blvd Lines? Or is it one big flop?
The "E" line seems to have less people on it. I still have to stand, but there is more standing room so nobody is crushed together. However, I ahve only ridden it a few times, so I don't know how my experience compares with daily riders.
I know that my relatives (and many others I assume) in the Greenpoint section of Brooklyn are still upset over this plan. It's especially burdensome to those who commute from Brooklyn to Queens, they don't like all the new connections, and they don't find the people movers to be very helpful at all. -Nick
>>>>>>>>It's especially burdensome to those who commute from Brooklyn to Queens, they don't like all the new connections
What, one connection? Gawd! The only thing that they have to bitch about is the fact that they have only 4 cars.
Question: Why are New York subway riders like jet engines?
Answer: They both whine!
Now the people who whined that they never would use the V train are now whining about the fact that it doesn't run 24hrs/day! Before, they whined about being inconvenienced by taking the V, now they are inconvenienced by not being able to take it. People just fear change.
I can't vouch for the express anymore, but the V is definitely more crowded then it was in December by a factor of three. I was on a packed V the other day, actually. It's refreshing to see that people are actually using it. It's depressing because I can no longer be guaranteed a seat.
Dan
Seems allright to me. I've noticed that the (F) is significantly less crowded. A cynic might say it's because noone wants it anymore thanks to its new route. But I find it quite useful, and it really does seem to me that the crowds are more evenly distributed among the four Queens Blvd. rush hour routes.
:-) Andrew
The F is doing what it's supposed to do. It's carrying more people whose destinations are along Sixth Avenue venues, fewer people who need to transfer, and more people going to/from the new stations on the route. On my F trips during visits to NY, Roosevelt Island and Lex/63 seemed to have a lot of people getting off (from Manhattan-bound trains).
From the trips I've taken myself,both lines are doing pretty well,although the first F trip was delayed by the out bound E at the 36 st merge.... I did see some people [at Roosevelt ave]waffle about the platform,trying to decide if this is the train they want..... overall the V is the F local they use to run years ago at night....it is a cool service though...
If you want the 60th St/Lexington area, the F now provides a one seat express ride to a station 3 short blocks north. No more inconvenient transfers to the R.
I have a lunch relief that requires me to go from/to 14/6th to Broadway lafayette. very time I have seen the V it was quite empty. In my book I could call it the Vacant train--in my car the other therte were four people plus myself and that was queens bound rush hour!
Sure, down there it's empty because it isn't going anywhere. 2nd Ave isn't exactly a prime destination.
But further up, and especially going northbound, it's respectably full.
I guess the inclusion of the "V" service IS evening out crowds along 6 Ave well. In the PM rush hours at 47-50 for instance, there is a line of passengers at the local track. The "F" comes in a bit crowded, but some, not ALL of the crowd on the platform quietly boards. Then The "V" comes in and the balance of the people board. Neither train is PACKED disproportionately, so I guess the "V" is successful for the PM rush--however, I dont know about the AM crowds!!! Tony
How is the E handling the Rush Hour Crowds? The last time I saw it, it was unbelieveable crowded.
N Bwy
If the E is still overcrowded they could increase the 3 E trains going to 179th to 6 tph and reduce the F correspondingly. Now that they're reopening the E WTC station they should be able to turn more trains around down there.
First, I do belive it would make the (F) less profitable and that the Grand St. Shuttle could at least be replaced by (D) as the weekday terminus and that the (B) could terminate at IND 2nd Av. station instead of the 34 St. Herald Square (Empire State Building).
I was wondering if the #7 trains stations east of 61st will
have their names changed, by change I mean dropping the old street
name and keeping the numeric.
Will 90th st Elmhurst Ave become just 90th st?
They have done that on the J train at Eldert's Lane, although I think the station sign still reads Elderts Lane. They also dropped the names on the stations at the end of the Fulton line to Lefferts, I would assume they will do it on the 7 also.
BTW, this question is for anyone:
What were the old names for 52nd St and 103rd St?
I know this much:
33rd St-Rawson St
40th St-Lowery St
46th St-Bliss St
52nd St-???
61st St-Woodside
69th St-Fisk Av
74th St-Broadway
82nd St-Jackson Heights
90th St-Elmhurst Av
103rd St-???
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
52nd street is Lincoln Ave and 103rd street is Corona Plaza.
Many thanks.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
52nd St - Lincoln Ave
103rd St was originally Alburtis Ave then changed to 104th St - Corona Plaza - Alburtis Ave then changed to 103rd St - Corona Plaza
82nd St was originally 25th St - Jackson Heights
52nd St-Lincoln
103rd. St-Corona Plaza
Dan
Any idea when these names on the #7 line would be dropped? -Nick
As soon as Bar Codes can be put up!
The stations seem to have lost some of the neighborhood flavor in the interest of numeric conformity.
avid
> As soon as Bar Codes can be put up!
What for?????
Stuart, RLine86Man
To let you know where the closest neighborhood bar is, perhaps?
Thus,
33 St-Sunnyside
40 St-Sunnyside
46 St-Sunnyside
Actually, it would be:
33rd Street-Long Island City East
40th Street-Sunnyside West
46th Street-Sunnyside East
I have a better idea:
On the 1/9:
66th Street-Lower Upper West Side
72nd Street-Middle Upper West Side
79th Street-Upper Middle Upper West Side
86th Street-Lower Upper Upper West Side
96th Street-Middle Upper Upper West Side
103rd Street-Upper Upper Upper West Side
The street names aren't used any place other than the subway signs.
It makes as much sense as marking the trains: MTA New Amsterdam Transit.
On deeds of homes the old names of the streets are still used.
NYCT will look at adding the old names to the current names once NYCDOT gets around to adding them to the street signs downstairs (it's all about sccuracy here). DOT said several years ago that they'd do it, but they haven't gotten around to that yet.
The names were removed as part of the recent station rehabs.
It's a shame. It is kind of boring how nearly every street in this borough is numbered. And there is no reason why some of those names could not be retained. Why couldn't 46th Street remain Bliss Street? I doubt there is another one in Queens.
Of course, given that the street names were changed, the stations' names should well be changed too. No need to create unnecessary confusion.
:-( Andrew :-)
I, on the other hand think that the numberization is good. More streets that have previous names for me to know and use. I think of that all the time when I pass the corner of Chatham Street and New Bowery, Robinson Street and College Place, or Fair Street and Great Queen Street among other places.
I, on the other hand think that the numberization is good. More streets that have previous names for me to know and use. I think of that all the time when I pass the corner of Chatham Street and New Bowery, Robinson Street and College Place, or Fair Street and Great Queen Street among other places.
None of these old names was ordinalized.
And what a big screwup that was. How many confused passengers I had as a C/R couldn't figure out how they missed 75 Street, up until the middle of 2002 there were no station signs that said "75 St - Elderts Lane" they all said just "Elderts Lane"
The station's original name was "Elderts Lane". It's not like they put up the wrong signs when it just said "Eldert's Lane", it always was just Eldert's Lane. However, when they changed the map to read "75 St-Eldert's Lane", they should have added the 75th St at the same time.
At the time the map said just "75 St", no Elderts Lane on the map. If it had "75 St - Elderts Lane" then there would have been no confusion.
Unlike the other name changes, where the old street name had been changed, there still is an Elmhurst Ave. at that stop. So why change it?
That would require the TA to also change the name of the Elmhurst Avenue station on the E/V/F line.
They won't change it since there still is a street called Elmhurst Ave. there.
90th - Elmhurst Ave. is named so because it is over the juncture of 90th St. and Elmhurst Avenue, unlike most of the other number-name stations which were so named because when the stations were built, the streets were named. I dislike the removal of the names, though. I think it added a lot of character to the line.
Besides, the stations had a nice ring to them. 46th St.-Bliss St. was always one of my favorites, back when the C/Rs still announced them like that. Some (very few) still use the names.
Dan
There are 2 stations north of Queensboro Plaza that were originally named Broadway: one over 31st Street and one over Roosevelt Avenue. The "74 Street" part was added to the one over Roosevelt Avenue to distinguish it from the other one.
I liked Bliss Street, too. I live near that station, and there's a restaurant on 47th and Greenpoint (a block south of the station) called Bliss Street Restaurant. (Obviously named for the station.)
There are still some CR's that announce the old names.
I lived in Sunnyside from 1950 - 1973 and would go back to visit my mom occasionally until she had to go into a nursing home in 1999. Where exactly is the restaurant. I remember an Italian Restaurant on the south side of GPA just east of 47th. Is this restaurant in that spot? What kind of food ?
You made me respond to posts from last year.
In any case, it's not like this is a thread speculating what should be the plan for the Manhattan Bridge in 2001. Old topics are still valid.
I was aware of Elmhurst Ave, I lived there for 11 years.
It was just an example
"I'm 034082035" (The 34th person in the building at the block 82St/35Av"
:-)
This afternoon, heading down to Whitehall to catch the SI Ferry, I witnessed the most incredibly stupid person. At this time all the entrances to South Ferry Station are boarded with signs saying "Closed by Order of the NYPD". One door did not have a board completely covering it. This person walked in and swiped his card at every turnstile, trying to get to the staircase. Apparently, the fact that ALL the turnstiles say No Entrance; the lack of a Station Agent; and the lack of illumination did not even hit him. I had to point him back out the way he went in and then spend minutes trying to convince him that the station was closed - no service.
This posted just to show you all how stupid the paying customer can really be.
You should have left him there and see how much farther he would go. He should "pay" for his stupidity.
"He should "pay" for his stupidity"
Agreed! He was tresspassing. if a cop was around, I would alert him about the tresspasser so it would be handled properly. Just watch the tresspasser get hurt and then sue nyc. He would never win, but it would be a headache that Mike Bloomberg and Virgil Conway don't need to deal with. -Nick
Actually, depending upon how insolent the guy was, the penalties fro unauthorized crossing of a police line are a bit harsher.
-Hank
What's funny about the whole episode is that the man might have been honestly confused and not amazingly stupid. Someone unfamiliar with the subway might have assumed that the entrance was open as it wasn't completely blocked off. The lack of illumination and the unstaffed booth wouldn't necessarily mean much if the man didn't understand the system (he might have thought all stations were like that), and he probably was puzzled by the "no entry" lights on the turnstiles. Finally, he very well might not have realized that the 1 line was cut off as a result of the WTC situation.
On the other hand, I have worked at GO's where the turnstiles were closed off. Signs posted. Handouts abound and chains put up. Red tape in use. And red lights on the turnstiles. And someone will still try to use their card or token. Assuming they had no intentions of paying and walk thru the gate.
Nick,
Virgil Conway retired last year. Peter Kalikow is now the MTA Chairman.
Oh! Thank you for clearing that up. Now that you mention it, I think I remember hearing about that but forgot all about it. -Nick
Hate to burst yer bubble, but Mr. E. Virgil Conway IS NOT, repeat, NAUGHT the MTA Chairman anymore...it's Mistah Peter Kalikow.
Just FYI :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
And if he had reached the platform, he would be waiting for a long, long, looooooo-ooooooooooong time for a train to arrive.
Yeah! Ummm, let's see.....I'd say, ohhhhhh, about another year (before the tunnel is "restored" to [bypass WTC/Cortlandt Street] service.) before he'll see ANYTHING :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
>>This posted just to show you all how stupid the paying customer can really be.<<
If he made it to the platform, he'd probably complain about poor service !
Bill "Newkirk"
Perhaps his name was Mike and lives in Jersey
Ow.....good dis though
Hey, maybe he knew about the situation and was willing to wait ten months for a train ...
If he broke in to the main fare control area, maybe he could have then broken into the abandoned shuttle platform and taken a running jump onto one of the No. 5 Lex trains as it rounded the loop. That would have saved the 10-month wait though it's possible bad timing could have made the end result a little bit messy...
Or run down the track to Bowling Green.
Yeah!!! But think about it, it's DRAMA :-D *lol*
Sorry....had tooooooooooo mny cups of Starbucks.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Only if he crossed the tracks. The closed-off entrance to the inner platform is reached through a separate turnstile(s). There is no crossover between the two sides, leading to an interesting situation existing before the discontinuance of Lexington Av. service to South Ferry. Namely, that it was possible to transfer from a (1) to a (5) or (6) Lexington Av. train, but not to a Bowling Green shuttle.
Bob Sklar
There is no turnstile to provide access to the inner loop platform. It is reached through a gate, to the left of the booth, and down the stairs.
It sounds like a tourist.
Michael
I still remember the Foster's commercial with the surfer that gets wiped out...and then the Aussie accented guy say "Tourist" :-D...yeah, it does sound like one to me, mate. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Didn't appear to be one. I've seen very few tourists in suit and tie carrying briefcase, traveling alone. Visiting businessman, I'll give you; but who would have sent him to South Ferry to get on a train?
hmmmmmmm....good point.... *lol*
Maybe the guy was in a rush or realllly lateafter getting off of the Brooklyn (or) Staten Island Ferry?
Stuart, RLine86Man
Nope. He was in front from of me from the N/R exit across from the Ferry terminal. He quite purposely walked to South Ferry.
Maybe he has been living in a cave for the last 4 months (You can guess with who) and didn't know what happened. He had to get a train uptown and thought the doors were like that because they were broken and he had to go thru that one door.
Oh, well, so much for that Conspiracy Theory :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
At Princeton, Einstein once went into the back seat of his car and then called the police reporting that his steering wheel was stolen.
Was Albert Einstein stupid? or just preocupied? A lot of people in lower Manhattan have Wall Street financial stuff on their minds.
Did this person ever think that there was a reason that the South Ferry Station is closed? I guess not. Some people can be incredibly STUPID!! He would get the award for the stupidest person on this earth for what he did. It is almost certain that the Dodo bird was smarter than him.
#3 West End Jeff
He may not have known why it was closed. Even though he could likely guess why, ground zero is still several blocks from south ferry. But more importantly, he should have realized that just because one piece of the door was unboarded does not mean the station is open! -Nick
Did he see any signs that the South Ferry IS CLOSED. If one should have a current subway map it would also show that the South Ferry station IS CLOSED.
#3 West End Jeff
lol !!!
& U mean it was POSTED ??.............lol!!
What is really unfortunate is the fact that the overhead wire ban and conduit requirements may be considered enough of a problem to sink the idea when it gets to feasability and cost studies. Of course, one could modify the ban to permit streetcar wire but...
-Robert King
Maybe it's time for a return to battery cars, or even soda motors!!!
:-)
Frank Hicks
Check out this eBay auction.
"1970's Vintage"??
With a ( W ) train?
The seller is full of shit. That is a modern sign. The 6 was colored yellow in the 70s and there would be a RR and QB train.
You just stated the obvious.
You are absolutely right that the seller is FULL OF IT!! For all we know he ripped it off at Canal Street recently. The only thing that might be from the 1970s is material beneath the sign. Not the actual sign itself. Anyone who buys it is a complete idiot.
#3 West End Jeff
A complete idiot who payed 90 $
That idiot might as well have taken $90 and thrown it out the window.
#3 West End Jeff
Nobody is paying $90. Obviously the seller isn't the brightest bulb in the bulb box, but nobody was stupid enough to take his bait. Unless some even dimmer bulb makes a bid within the next 4 days, this guy just wasted $2.20.
There are some rather dim bulbs out there.
#3 West End Jeff
And a sucker, too.
As the old saying goes, "There's a sucker, born every minute."
#3 West End Jeff
Spoken by W. C. Fields, IIRC.
Nope-PT Barnum, it is usually incorrectly credited to WC Fields but, I don't know why.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're correct when you mentioned that P.T. Barnum said the phrase "There's a sucker, born every minute". Some people will always be suckers because they'll never learn.
#3 West End Jeff
The problem is that there is no sucker, nobody bought the sign.
If some nitwit buys the sign they're surely a sucker.
#3 West End Jeff
Some bozo bid on it 33 seconds before the auction ended.
Well that bozo is surely a SUCKER in capital letters. As the saying goes "There's a SUCKER, born every minute".
#3 West End Jeff
Not only did this guy buy that sign, but he bought this one too.
I can't feel sorry for him.
Had the seller not called the signs "1970s vintage," then I'd commend him for a suckerfinding well done, but the whole thing reeks of fraud.
As long as the buyer was not expecting 1970s vintage; although the price was a little high, I don't think he's a sucker. Those signs in the condition they're in generally sell for about $75.00 each.
Another angle no one has considered is that maybe, just maybe, a motion picture company bought the signs. Price is no object to them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The seller did a very good job in trying to hoodwink a potential buyer into thinking that the sign was from the 1970s.
#3 West End Jeff
This person who bought this other sign is a SUCKER for sure. He took just more money and threw it out the window.
#3 West End Jeff
That most defintely is not a vintage 70's sign. Anyone who bids on that sign thinking they're getting a vintage 70's sign is a fool! Whoever's selling this sign hasn't changed his calendar in 25 years.
I feel sorry for anyone who ends up buying it. Can you say "Sucker"?
The buyer is probably too busy crying.
Probably no-one will. Anyone who's interested would smell a rat. Anyway $90.00 ?!?!?
A real '70's sign from the station that came from would have a yellow 6, red "QB", yellow N, and a green "RR". And no W....lol.
$90.00? Sheesh!
--Mark
That sign is a modern sign. Moreover, it looks like it was ripped off from the Canal Street stop.
It is.................it's the only place where's no (4) or (5) connection with the Broadway line (since the 6 is the only Lex line to stop at Canal)
That sign hung on one of the Canal J/M/Z platforms until very recently -- so recently that I didn't realize it was gone until I saw this post. The Q/W labels were added just before the 7/22 service change.
I beg to differ with most of you...
Granted this is NOT a 1970's sign, but I don't think $90.00 is a totally unreasonable price. Signs in that condition and vintage (almost new) go for $65-75.
Marc
I was a pasenger on an f train where the condctor to ill. I'm wondering if any on has any info on the conductor.
The details are that on the 19:25 Frank/ Kings Highway, the C/R took ill at York St,(after being held @Jay St.). I was in the next car (R-32).I surmise that theC/R was able to contact the T/O just prior to collapsing, in order for the doors to be opened. CPO was already on platform (Security detail assigned to stat.)Unfortunately, I did not stay around to see the outcome, but backtracked to Jay on a waiting R-46. Can anyone find out how the guy is, please? Oriental, age 40-45. Thanks to all.
Is there any way that insiders can get any info? This a fellow emploee, fellow human being I am talking about. Thanks, anyway, guys.
It's not that we don't care mind ya ... I went digging around for any information anywhere and came up empty handed on that one as well. It didn't make the papers which suggests that our TWU brother DID get better or it would have been in the papers ... I hope they're OK too and I'm sure many others here do as well ...
If you DO hear anything though, DO let us know ...
Half of the time stuff happens to TA Employees you never hear about it. I am sure the C/R is doing fine.
Hoping so as well ... shows you the level of appreciation though. :(
I suggest you get a scanner. Put in the proper frequencies and you'll know more about what's going on.
I already have one but don't bring it all the time. You do hear a lot crazy stuff on it.
There are many injuries that occur to our NYCT employees that don't make the papers. The exploding battery box made the Chief, but not prime time. When you read of a man under (12-9), you never hear of the grief the T/O and C/R are going through. Or the bus operator who gets robbed and beaten up on the owl run. If you are lucky to read of the battered train that hit a steel beam injuring passengers, you only get Al O'Leary's version. The truth, the hole truth and nothing including the truth.
Yeah, know all the angles all too well personally. I was a conductor on a 12-9 up front in 1970. As a motorman, DAMN lucky that I didn't have any personally but had a number of friends on NYCT and particularly on Conrail that had the misfortune, so I DO understand.
If you have a scanner, if you are lucky, you might hear the Train operator reporting a 12-9. I heard it the other day. Penn. Ave on the #1. Man is said to have jumped in front of the train according to the train operator
Thats got to be 4 to 5 in the last couple of weeks. Must be in the air...
.....or the Knicks are jumping one by one.
Although I still did not receive any info on his condition,thanks to all for your input.
I'm sure he is OK. I would have heard of it through division heads in TWU if it was major. Thanks for your concern!
With the hills on Georgia Ave is that a problem for climbing if there is no cable? Can Light Rail make it up the hills?
You must have missed 100 Years of Capital Traction. Cable left DC after the 1898 powerhouse fire on the 14th Street line. The slot in the electric era was for the current collector (called a plow).
LRV's have no problems on hills. Neither did electric streetcars.
I set out today to find those OOS M-1s at Calverton. There were about 8 of them, though I didn't count them. They all all wrecks or burnouts. Since there was grafitti on them, the cars numbers were obscured. The car number boards above the cab windows were all gone except a couple. One was #9717. All of the cars were in differing conditions, missing windows etc. One car was an oldie, it had the two tone blue "M" logo on the side. Another had the small blue circle with the white "M".
If you want to check them out, just take the L.I.E (495) to exit 71. Make a left at the bottom of the ramp and follow signs to Calverton. This should be Edward Ave. When you see the rXr crossing sign make a left (Railroad Ave) and there they are.
I would advise against walking the ROW and climbing on the cars to extract souvenirs. There are a couple of houses across the street and the locals may call the police. Just use common sense.
Bill "Newkirk"
I went out there on Christmas Eve and got some digital pictures of the cars. Unfortunately, I don't have a web site to upload them to.
Why not send them to Dave, who will post them here.
That Washington Post article on a need for light rail in DC brought up one memory.
Several years ago, there was a tourism article in a magazine section of a local newspaper (NY) showing intact streetcar cars with conduit. Also there were late model cars in the photo proving this was no old photo.
Does any one know what section of DC has these tracks ? Maybe Georgetown ?
Bill "Newkirk"
In todays Post there was a picture of the tracks still visible on P St., in Georgetown. They are fun to drive over when there are wet leaves on top of them.
That's the last place I recall seeing unpaved-over tracks in DC anywhere. It's just west of Wisconsin Ave.
Yeah, its pretty cool to see with the cobblestones and all.
Also FYI, there is a short curve of tracks at the 14th and Decatur loop.
There are also tracks in front of Glen Echo Park, which continues to "operate" though on a very limited basis. If one digs a bit further, the tracks probably also exist in the Dupont Circle Subway. Incidentally, January 27 is the 40th Anniversary of the abandonment of this fine system, which was my all-time North American favorite. But the trolleys may be coming back; I'll post a news article from today's paper in a little while. It is very pro-trolley.....
You can definitely see the access stairs that used to take you down to the "Subway" as it was often referred to.
I love going to the National Capital Trolley Museum and seeing the history that has been collected.
Although the trolleys stopped almost 10 years before I was born, I love learning about the transit of this area. Bits and pieces of trolley turn arounds, which are now bus end of lines, trolley barns, which are now bus garages, keep it alive as well.
Here are a couple of pix I took this year, in October, of those P Street tracks in Georgetown. I always used to drive on them -- it was smoother. Buses still serve this street.
Note the sign, "CAUTION STREETCAR TRACKS." Of course, no need for a sign, "CAUTION STREETCARS," since there haven't been any for decades.
Is there a Metro (Subway) station nearby ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Nope, the nearest Metro stop to Georgetown is at 23rd and I street -- Foggy Bottom-GWU. Georgetown didn't want a Metro stop when the system was first designed (too many of the 'wrong kind of people' could get off there, you know...) and so the Blue and Orange lines cross the Potomac and go to Arlington after that.
Now, 35 years later, things have changed and Georgetown desperately wants some sort of rail link to downtown, which is why there's talk about a new line that would connect to Virigina and the Dulles Airport area that would come into the district northwest of Key Bridge and solve that problem.
No but there is now a shuttle from DuPont Circle.
Get the 30, 32,34,35,or 36 bus (the pennsylvania avenue buses) and take them up M and Wisconsin. You can Pick them up at Friendship Hgts, Tenleytown, a block north of Foggy Bottom, Farragut West, a block south of Farragut North, Archives, and they continue to SE. Pick it up at 17th and I....right by Farragut North and West...a short 10 minutes to the heart of georgetown, and the buses run on 10 minute headways.
And they are the most bunched up buses in the city, tied with the 42. Let me rephrase your last thought: The buses are SCHEDULED every 10 minutes, chances are you will be waiting much longer or much shorter to find you are on one of three crowded buses all running back to back.
Instead of tearing up the city, again, maybe dedeicated bus lanes or a BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) system could be experimented with first before sinking all of this money into light rail. Just like every other project proposed, the media hypes it up, gets everyone excited, then nothing happens.
Good idea. Write someone.
Yup! I still drive on those rail regularly.
Wayne
If you look at P Street at Wisconsin Avenue, you will see tracks. I don't think those were the ones in the picture though.
The ones in the Post were at 34th and P.
Probably the same ones.
WNYW-5 NYC just did a story on Bob Diamond and the Brooklyn trolleys. NYCDOT apparently has stiffed them ... particularly insulting was NYCDOT's "The museum said they'd come up with $90,000 - show us the money!" WHAT ... ***BALLS*** ...
Anything we can do to rub New York City's nose in this?
Does that mean the dream is over? Or is there still time to fix the problem?
Fox news ... they showed Bob, they showed the trolley, they showed the NYCDOT letter, concluded nothing and offered no solutions. That it got on the air at all seems to be an invite for viewers to take matters into their own hands with their political anointed. Looks pretty dead at the moment though ... unless people BITCH ... there hasn't been a politician yet that LIKES bad publicity ...
Geez, why isn't Bob appealing to SubTalk for help?
I think he has, but that doesn't do much for fundraising. My guess is that we'll see him but I'd bet he's been MIGHTY busy. He clearly had working equipment and let's face it, Fox5 gets more eyeballs than subtalk does ... I just hope some of the newspapers and other stations pick up on the story as well. $90,000 is serious bucks, but it isn't insurmountable ...
My guess is that BHRA planned to account for most of that matching
money with in-kind labor. That's legit, many volunteer organizations
have done it, but maybe the DOT won't buy it.
Dunno ... but it looks like for the lack of $90,000 no trolleys will grow in Brooklyn and that shouldn't be ...
The only thing DOT cares about is road projects, Robert Moses lives. Take pen in hand and snail mail a letter to your public officials. E-Mails get deleted unread.
I think all state DOTs just care about roads. I remember reading about a public hearing for the GA DOT, and they were discussing relieving traffic by building more roads. Someone speaks up and aks "What will you do when more roads can't be built?" and one of the DOT people says "then we will look into more road building options." It's sad that they don't even consider nothing but roads.
Drivers are more vocal then riders, sad but true. Plus there are more weathly road lobbys ... the squeaky wheel gets oiled.
Mr rt__:^)
"I think all state DOTs just care about roads."
All of them, really? Even the ones that pay Amtrak to run additional trains within their state, like California, Illinois, North Carolina, etc.??
Placards, yelling and screaming ... photo op ... that's what gets attention - postal mail also gets pitched after being tallied up like email. Bring out the cameras, burning effigies, Al Sharpton ... that's what gets things DONE ...
Ooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
I've heard some about Bob Diamond's project, but I'm confused. Historical railroad? Meaning museum/nostalgia? Or revenue service, connecting Red Hook to Manhattan as a viable commuter option? And, the DOT factors into this in what way?
The City wants to develop the area. Bob Diamond & some local businesses have gotten togather toward that end. The City seems to have gotten distracted & forgotten what it originally intended to to there.
I for one wish him all the best at getting his loop finished before Summer.
Mr rt__:^)
I've seen three recent newspaper articles & they all sound positive.
- Brooklyn Daily Eagle of 1/10
- Brooklyn Heights Paper of 1/14
- Middletown (CT) Press of 1/18
I got the impression Bob thought the value of labor & donated materials counted toward his $98,000. (I think he was lead to believe this by someone at nycDOT who may or may not still be there).
[I'm interrupting this from the articles & have no independant knowledge]
Also interrupted is that he can complete his loop & open for business with the funds he already has. The City does want to develop the area, so if he and some other business in that area get something going, I think the City will have a revelation.
The major stumbling block seem to be the collapsing pier and the willingness of the owner to push the City to repair/stablize it (one of the articles talks about this). The pier has a large warehouse on it that could be/is being rented, but the pier around it on three sides needs to be stablized ... not a small undertaking.
Mr rt__:^)
The FOX thing last night on channel 5 (we get NYC TV via birdie) was rather bleak and suggested that Bob's work was all for nothing because NYCDOT nixed the project ... mixed signals, typical Fox/Post urinalism, hard to tell ... but I came away from the story wanting to DO something to smack NYCDOT around a bit and see if there's some way of getting Bob the vigorish he needs to keep building. That PCC he was playing with was looking MIGHTY snappy ... SOMEBODY did a pharkload of hard work there - they also showed the hulk of another PCC that could use some funding as well ...
Since everyone was talking about BTM last week, I decided to go and see for myself on the progress. It seems that repairs are in progress on the damaged pier. Around the block, half the street is torn up with NYCDOT signs and barricades around the construction site.
SelkirkTMO is correct about the work. Since my last visit there about 2 years ago, a lot of work has been done. Hate to see it go like this :-(
Thanks to Mr. Pirmann, he updated the Brooklyn Trolley Museum page at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/mus/btm/
I believe FIRMLY that the BHRA kids have TRULY earned their sheckel and some noise needs to be made to allow it to be completed ... all that hard work HAS to be worth SOMETHING ...
Were not going down without a BIG fight- stay tuned, and thanks for all the good thoughts.
Bob D.
BTW- There is something "odd" at City DOT.
GOOD! I was REALLY impressed by how nice and shiny that limosine of yours was on the rails on teevee ... channel 5 bagged some good pix of some OBVIOUS hard work there ... have you gotten ahold of any reporters from WSJ as yet so Mayor Mike can see?
Were not going down without a BIG fight- stay tuned, and thanks for all the good thoughts.
What can SubTalkers who want to help do? send $$$ (to where)? attend meetings (where)? make phone calls (to whom)? write letters (to where)?
BTW- There is something "odd" at City DOT.
Huh?
So, the $90 000 that this agency wants is still unresolved. Would it be possible for them to work out something like an installment plan so that they pay something more reasonable like $10 000 per year for nine years or something like that? That way, this department gets their money as promised but it doesn't have to be delivered in one financially backbreaking chunk. The DOT should be more open to some negotiation on how the money is to be paid given the type of project this is. As if the tugboat business wasn't enough already...
-Robert King
This is NYC's government ... its purpose is to screw any entrepreneur and make off with the goods. Ask the BMT. :)
I'm hoping Mayor Mike might bitchslap the agency or find some money for it, but in NYC the "squeaky wheel" wins ... it'll take a NIMBY event of "YES, we WANT the trolleys" and a hell of a lot of noise. That's how things get done in da chitty ... if everyone stands quietly, then nothing happens ... as usual ... I ain't got the juice since I'm not a city resident ...
Last Saturday I was on my way to a tango show in Greenpoint. I guess that an inbound #7 at Times Square was way behind schedule because when we left, we ran EXPRESS from Grand Central to Queensboro Plaza, then local the rest of the way to Main Street.
Michael
That happens sometimes when a train is running late - they have it skip a few stations in an attempt to get back on schedule and put more distance between it and the train behind it.
Also known as a battery run.
If only one train skipped stations it is not realy a battery run I believe. We had this "discussion" before.
I probably wasn't a board member. What does "battery run" mean?
Michael
The term "battery run" dates back to the days of the storage battery streetcars. When the batteries were getting low near the end of a run, they might deem it necessary to make an express run to the end of the line so the batteries could be recharged, hence the term. Starting a car, particularly a loaded one, used a lot of power, so making the express or "battery" run was the only way to ensure they had enough power to get to the end of the line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a stranger one.
At 4th Avenue, the F train I was on said it would go express. It stopped at 7th Avenue, and ran along the local track the rest of the way to Church Avenue. Then the crew said that the next stop after Church Avenue would be Kings Highway. Weird...
That's not unusual. It happens every day on the 1/2, even when there's a perfectly good express waiting across the platform and the passengers on the local are trying to get to local stops. If the train simply terminated at 137 rather than skipping 50, 66, 79, and 86, fewer passengers would be inconvenienced (really!), but AFAIK the TA very rarely turns trains at 137 to make up for lost time.
Last Saturday, I joy rode on the M1 from 50th to the 147 Street terminal. The bus went around the corner and discharged. Then the bus ran around the depot, came back on on 146th, made a right turn on Lenox, and then backed up into the terminal stand. (Before I go on, what is the person who stands at time control points and records a bus's passing times?)
Regardless of title, the man yelled at the driver (female), "Mary, I want this bus backed up and I want it backed up now or I'm giving you a citation!"
When the next M1 showed up, the driver didn't set the destination before pulling up. The man signaled that the sign wasn't set right.
The bus drove away before the man and the operator of the other bus came to fisticuffs.
I appreciate the man's devotion to customer service, but it really wasn't necessary to make a scene with the operator.
Michael
Enjoying New York every time he comes to dance tango.
Wrong board.
The 1936 Hagstrom NYC transit map, distributed in the first of John Landers' two map collections, shows NYC mass transit at its apex.
The IND was nearing completion, while the great Manhattan & Brooklyn els were not yet torn down. The BMT and IRT meanwhile had nearly attained their present trackage. Dozens of ferries plied the rivers. The map doesn't even show the trolley lines which were still in existence.
I'm reminded of reading as a kid abt the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods, when dinosaurs had also reached their zenith and were kings of the land, the air and the seas. Well, you know what happened to them.
Sure it was the depression, but I'd set my time machine for 1936, if only I could afford one..
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think you've hit on the definition of "irony".
Sure it was the depression, but I'd set my time machine for 1936, if only I could afford one..
Things weren't ALL wonderful in 1936. Construction of the IND was nearing completion without any firm plans for future work. In other words, it was sort of like today, with no "dotted lines" on the map. In saying this, I'm assuming that it was becoming obvious in 1936 that the Second System was not going to be built anytime soon (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Attempts at building the Second Avenue line were going nowhere. And finally, the Sixth Avenue El was being torn down and the Second Avenue El was nearing its end.
That's also an interesting map, since the the Queens IND route doesn't yet show the dogleg route the express tracks took between Roosevelt Ave. and Queens Plaza.
One trade off for the old time machine setting though, is that if you set it for the mid 30's, that means you'd be too early for the temporary and unique, IND "Worlds Fair Railroad" spur. And of course, if you set it for 1939 to ride the IND where the Van Wyck runs today, you'd have missed the 6th ave. el, by at least 4 months.
The No.6 Line has now offically became a Redbird free line. The last R29 was retired last week. Also some of you may already know there are more R142A put in service then R62A's.
R 142A Update date 01/20/02
7486-7490 are in service with 7456-60
7496-7500 in service
R 142
6371-6375 at Concouse Yard
About how many R142A's are in service on the 6 now? Maybe in a couple of months we might start to see R62As heading to the 7 line.
"Maybe in a couple of months we might start to see R62As heading to the 7 line."
Try a couple of weeks for the first trainset, and then more to follow later in the spring. -Nick
Cars 7211-7545 and 7551-55 are in service. All cars up to 7590 are on the property. Last report I heard, 7581-90 were at Unionport Yard, but I haven't seen them road testing. That leaves 7591-7610 to be delivered. Any day now...
-Stef
I just heard that there is about 50 more R142'a left to be delivered.
Robert
They're out and running this afternoon, in road testing.
-Stef
6391-6400 and 6491-6500 were also at Concourse last time I checked.
-Stef
That makes 2 6398s O/S for long periods of time
They have about 4 sets of R142's I wonder what the deal is?
one of them 6392 is stripped of the black piece in the front
one of them 6395 is stripped of the black piece in the front
Aye. 6688 is on the road, perhaps the number is a lucky one at best.
I was thinking of painting the R-142 car in Maroon Paint. Perhaps you and Erik can get a set of paintbrushes and apply some drab olive green paint to the "NEW" 6398. We could say the R-16 is back on the road. Heh.
-Stef
6688 IS on the road, tho believe me
the 6688 you folks have at Branford is
the faaaaaaaar better looking one.
I know! I know! Heh. They don't make them like that anymore.
-Stef
Nope, they sure don't.:-)
Yes there are at Concourse as well as 6381-90.
This post is basically an observation about the former 6-Avenue/Broadway Brooklyn Service, I doubt anybody today can logically explain it but:
KK trains of 1968-72 apparantly followed a skip stop pattern along Jamaica Ave during the peak. I thought double letter trains signified local only service.
K trains of 1972-6 were local only service and never ventured past Eastern Pkwy.
If the TA wanted this service to initally serve as a Queens Blvd alternative, how did they THINK passengers would want to ride a double letter train???? And why cut it down to a single letter after the abbreviated route made LOCAL ONLY stops?????
Tony
The Holy Ronan Empire worked in mysterious ways. :)
Taking an expensive connection and supplying slow, local only service using ancient rolling stock is certainly mysterious.
And QJ trains ran express along Broadway-Brooklyn during rush hours in the peak direction. Then there was the QB, which ran express in Manhattan. Go figure.
Well Steve, it's realistically silly to try in 2002 to put one self in the TA 1960's mindset--BUT WE ALL DO ANYHOW!!! Why Brighton trains all had the Q prefix is beyond me. BUT, I read that initialy there was a plan to eliminate ALL original Q, QB, and QT designations, and that was met with great resistance from Brighton riders. So, the "QB" Brighton/Bridge was regulated to the rush our limited to appease the riders. In that case I wonder why the "QD" didnt run with the "QJ" and "QB"????? Or for that matter, why the "D" didn't remain Culver and the "QF" ran via. Brighton???????? Tony Leong
Because the QF would not have counted as Concourse at the other end of the line. Concourse trains should be C and D, though they are now B and D for some bizarre reason.
Amen! That B belongs back in Washington Heights ...
Actually, what I meant was, I wonder why the TA didn't leave the original "D" route alone via Culver, and extended the "F" past Bway Lafayette via. Bridge/Brighton--hence a "QF"--or the obscene "FQ"!!
Tony
Nooooooooooooooo don't let this become a PP train post!
This led to the silly double letters being dropped in 1985. Certain single letters ran local in one boro and express in others (B, N, E) and the "QB" was express in Manhattan, local in Brooklyn.
I wonder if Graham Chapman had anything to do with putting an end to those silly double letters.:-) After all, if a Monty Pythin sketch got too silly, he was known to stop it right then and there.
Tony: When the Jamaica Line first began skip-stop on June 18,1959 they issued flyers identifying the trains as #14 and # 15. Apparently they intended to use the R-16's here as much as possible. After Chrystie Street openned the #14 serive was taken over by the JJ and after June 1968 it became the KK. The 15 skip stop service was taken over by the QJ. When the KK became the K and was cut back to Eastern Parkway the J took over both skip-stop services. Trains were alternately designated "A" or "B" but how you told them apart I have never been able to find out.
The #14 skip-stop service was as follows: 168,160,Sutphin,Queens Blvd,Metropolitan,102,Elderts,Cypress Hills,Norwood,Van Siclen,Alabama and Eastern Pkwy.
The #15 service was 168,Sutphin,121,111,Woodhaven,Forest Pkwy,Elderts,Crescent,Cleveland,Eastern Pkwy.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Hey Larry Redbird, What's up. Anyway, when the "J" took over the entire Skip-Stop in 1973, it was ONLY for the AM rush hour in the direction of Broad Street. I remember that the TRAINS were never labelled "A" stop or "B" stop, but "A" or "B" signs were placed outside the end of the station so the the motorman can see upon approaching the station, and he would either stop or skip. If skip- stop also happened in the PM to Jamaica, then perhaps the passengers would've been privvy to exactly what stops the train would service, and then the TRains would have carried the "A/B" signs (like Philly's Market-Frankford EL). Thanks again as always for your detailed info. YOU should write a book on the trains!!!!!!! Tony Leong
Trains were alternately designated "A" or "B" but how you told them apart I have never been able to find out.
This service only operated in the AM, so it didn't matter how the trains were marked. If the train blew it's horn as it went through your station, and you knew your station was an "A" station, then you knew that train serviced only "B" stops.
NJ Transit continues to reshape police force following terrorist attacks
TRENTON, N.J. (AP) -- The restructuring of New Jersey Transit's security force -- which began in the wake of the terrorist attacks -- continues to be a work in progress.
Agency officials, with input from the state Attorney General's office and the FBI, have changed the way its 123 police officers patrol the transit system. They have added 22 officers and two bomb-sniffing dogs since the Sept. 11 attacks, and also shifted responsibility for routine patrols at train stations to municipal police departments.
"We are changing in accordance with changing times," NJ Transit Police Chief Mary Rabadeau told The Star-Ledger of Newark for Tuesday's editions.
The agency now concentrates its security staff in five core areas: Newark Penn Station, Newark Broad Street Station, Hoboken terminal, Walter Rand bus station in Camden and the Atlantic City bus station.
It also has increased police presence at Newark's Penn Station, especially during the morning and evening commutes, and a new security post is in place in the terminal's waiting room.
By the summer, NJ Transit expects to increase its police to 141 officers, the limit in its current budget. Staff turnover is now less of a problem for officials, who said the change is due in part to salary increases included in the union contract.
More changes may be coming later this year, when the agency undergoes a federal security audit. Meanwhile, officials are still reviewing recommendations made in a $100,000 police study conducted last year by former New York City Police Commissioner William Bratton.
"Are there going to be wholesale changes? No," said Jeffrey Warsh, NJ Transit's executive director. "Are there going to be significant changes that people will see that will make them feel more comfortable? They're already seeing those."
(Copyright 2002 by The Associated Press. Reprinted without permission.)
> Reprinted without permission.
Does this make it right?
Nope. It dun't...and anyone from the A.P. saw it on here, they'd be WELL within their rights to sue you (the original poster in this thread) for copyright infringement.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Or Dave, they may have you (with another type of relief) take down the post as equitable relief.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Poked around yesterday by the entrances to the tunnels to penn station from LIC, mostly just taking some photos by the freight team track (though i did wander closer to the tube entrances, under the 7 elevated approach). Over by hunterspoint av. was an LIRR PD SUV parked beyond the edge of the platform. I guess it was obvious what i was up to, but they still coulda given me a hard time about maybe tresspassing or something...
Guess they didn't want to get out of their nice warm truck.
Several months ago I nearly got arrested for photographing buses from the sidewalk on a busy street. Why? Because behind me and my camera and obscured by the sun, was a police shop where (according to the sign at the front) they overhaul squad cars and other equipment.
-Robert King
They are supposed to be there to prevent people from going into the tunnels.
I know... though I'd have suspected anyone in the area and not on public property might at the least raise an eyebrow.
Funding setback will delay Scranton-New York passenger rail service
ALLENTOWN, Pa. (AP) -- Funding setbacks have put the rail project that could restore passenger service between Scranton and New York City on a siding for at least a few more years, supporters said.
Even optimistic backers of the $180 million project to restore passenger rail service between Scranton and Hoboken, N.J., acknowledge that the project could not be finished until 2006 at the earliest.
Two years ago, supporters hoped for train service to begin by the end of 2003.
"We're not setting a date because we don't know about the funding," new project manager Joseph Lombardi said. "When you are dealing with the federal government you have to follow their rules."
The rail would carry passengers from Scranton and three stations in Monroe County, across the Delaware River into Warren, Sussex and Morris counties in New Jersey. Passengers could then take New Jersey Transit trains that are already in service to Hoboken, where there are connections into New York City.
Congress authorized $160 million for the project in 1999, but less than $2.8 million has so far been released. Supporters were hoping for $4.5 million this year and got $1 million, the same amount as last year.
The Federal Transit Administration has not approved the project for funding and has not even applied to do so. Pennsylvania and New Jersey have yet to agree how much each state will pay.
"One of us has to approach the other, but at this time neither of us is sure where the money will come from," said Rick Peltz, deputy secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation.
Pennsylvania has paid less than $1 million of the $4 million promised to New Jersey toward a $21 million right-of-way purchase needed for the project, he said.
The Poconos rail project has been planned since the 1980s, and is primarily aimed at reducing traffic on Interstate 80, which thousands of Pennsylvanians use to get to work in New Jersey and New York.
The planned service has been a selling point for Pocono real estate agents and builders selling homes to the many New York and New Jersey residents who have been moving to Monroe, Pike and Wayne counties. Scranton and Wilkes-Barre officials see the project as an important way to spur population growth and tourism.
"If we got the money today, we could have the trains running in three years," said former project manager Frank Reilly, administrator of the Morris County, N.J., Department of Transportation.
"Unfortunately, every year it's going back and begging for funds," Reilly said. "We have our foot in the door, and both states have made financial commitments."
New Jersey last year acquired a section of rail bed and bridge across the Delaware River needed for the project, and Monroe County negotiated a lease on 10 miles of track not under county control.
"That puts the entire right of way from Lake Hopatcong to Scranton in government hands," Reilly said. "That was a major accomplishment in 2001."
One study says the rail line could carry about 2,000 people initially, but that could rise to 6,100 daily riders by 2020.
"I think that for Stroudsburg and the Poconos, rail service makes sense," Peltz said.
While New Jersey authorities have talked of extending an existing passenger rail line to Phillipsburg and eventually the Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania planners don't think the idea makes sense.
Michael N. Kaiser, executive director of the Lehigh Valley Planning Commission, said a study in the early 1990s concluded that bus companies offering service to New York and New Jersey are adequately serving Lehigh Valley commuters.
(Copyright 2002 by The Associated Press. Reprinted without permission.)
Sounds like unless voters in the Poconos and the Scranton area push their state reps to come up with the matching funds down in Harrisburgh, this is one of those projects that's always going to be 3-5 years off. The feds won't pony up their $$$ unless Pennsylvania shows its willing to put in their share.
Does anyone here have any information on this rail line? Past service? Present condition?
- Lyle Goldman
http://www.pennjerseyrail.org/
http://www.njtransit.com/an_capitalprojects_project019.shtm
http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/GSMRRClub/history5.html
Also do a search on the internet for "Lackawanna Cutoff"
Why the hell would we want to increase the population of Wilkes-Barre and Scranton?
Why ... would we want to increase the population of Wilkes-Barre and Scranton?
Oh, their mayors or elected officials might like the notion of higher property tax revenues, perhaps? And since LOTS of people now commute from Pennsylvania to NYC on a growing system of buses, rail takes a little of the pressure for road expansion away.
Yes, less roads, more rails.
An increase in the population in those areas would spur economic growth much in the same way as when the first ral line set foot into certain areas. Besides, have this rail is just a RETURN of what once was. So many young families can't afford the high cost of living in the NYC metro area that buying a house with lots of land under $125,000 is worth the headache of traveling 2+ hours to work each day. With a return of passenger rail service, life would be easier not only for daily commuters, but also for families seeking an alternative to driving to the Pocono area for vacation time.
I often wonder what will come first the Second Ave Subway or PA-NJ rail link. They have to do something I-80 aways turns into a nightmare and Martz is too expensive and you have to pay for the parking besides.
I use I-80 from PA to NYC almost every day I don't see too many problems since I work PM'S but when I was AM's the Rush Hour on I-80 which is from 5:30AM-9:30AM and 3PM to 8PM is a problem. In the morning its bumper to bumper from Mile marker 30 to 45. You do about 35MPH in a 65MPH zone. If there is an accident then traffic is almost at a stand still. Then when you get passed all of that your still have to battle the GWB,Lincoln or Holland tunnels. The GWB in the morning most of the time turns into a 45 minute wait. Thats something you don't want to hear if your running late. Then lets hope theres not an Accident of the Cross Bronx/ Deegan merge then add 20 more minutes.
When I worked morning I always gave myself 3 Hours. If I have a 8AM report leave at 5AM. Now that I'm on PM's its better for me bacause I just give myself alittle less the 2 Hours and I make it since there are no real traffic problems around 2PM.
The commute itself with no problems can be done in 1Hr 30Mins and sometimes 1 hour and 10 Minutes if you push it.
Wave when you pass marker 14. The Erie Lackawanna 'cut' run won't be a bargain timewise as I understand it will extend from Hackettstown. I considered the trip Sept. 14th when I left my company car for good in the Bronx...took a last minute Lakeland Bus to Dover instead. That train run won't become serious until everyone realises how valuable a link it can be and the offending residents of Blairstown are put in their place. CI Peter
Group labors to bring back old-fashioned transport to Brooklyn waterfront
By LUKAS I. ALPERT
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) -- Since disappearing from city streets nearly 50 years ago, the trolley car was relegated to mere speed bump status in the city's mass transit history.
Now -- clang, clang -- the rumbling trolley could make a comeback in the borough where it made its New York debut: Brooklyn.
Bob Diamond and a group of about 20 volunteer electricians, welders and construction experts at the Brooklyn Historic Railway Association have spent the last seven years stretching a light-rail line 1.7 miles from the southern tip of the Red Hook peninsula to downtown Brooklyn.
The nonprofit group's hope is to finally connect the underdeveloped and transit-starved spit of land to the seven downtown subway lines -- and to give tourists a reason to visit the oft-ignored area.
"The trolley would become a cross between a tourist attraction and a mass transit route," said Diamond, 42, a transit historian and president of the BHRA.
Most people associate trolleys with San Francisco, New Orleans, and older European cities. But at its height in the early part of the 1900s, New York City had the most extensive trolley system in the United States, said George Boucher, general manager of the Shoreline Trolley Museum in East Haven, Conn.
"Basically every main thoroughfare had a trolley line running down it," he said. Trolleys were so prevalent in Brooklyn that the name of its baseball team, the Dodgers, was an homage to residents' skill at avoiding streetcars.
In fact, the last trolley line to be demolished in New York was its first: Brooklyn's Coney Island line, taken down in 1956.
Trolleys are already making a comeback in other cities: San Diego, Calif., installed a line in the '80s, as did Buffalo, N.Y. In the past two years, New Jersey Transit opened a line connecting Bayonne to Jersey City, with plans to extend it by 2005.
"Light-rail is pretty cost-efficient," Boucher said. "You might say it's like going back to the future."
For Diamond, the trolley resurrection had its genesis 20 years ago, when he discovered an unused and long-forgotten Long Island Rail Road train tunnel nearly 2000 feet under Atlantic Avenue, one of Brooklyn's major thoroughfares.
After several years of giving tours of the tunnel, telling tales about the days when the city was crisscrossed with trolley lines, Diamond began thinking about possible uses for the tunnel that was abandoned in the 1880s.
He settled on a trolley, putting together a plan to run a line from the tip of Red Hook, north to neighboring Caroll Gardens through the abandoned tunnel, and ultimately encircling Borough Hall to connect with seven subway lines.
Diamond knew the idea was kitschy, but it seemed too good to be true -- proving a cost-effective transportation alternative to the diesel-powered buses that are currently the neighborhood's only option.
"Red Hook has no really good public transportation going in there, and I think this would be a real improvement for the neighborhood," said Angel Rodriguez, the district's city council member. Rodriguez has helped Diamond secure more than $50,000 in city money for the project.
"But equally important would be the symbolism of what this would bring to a neighborhood that has been struggling for a long time," he said.
Red Hook has long been a tough neighborhood, even for Brooklyn.
Back when the borough was a major seaport, the industrial area was filled with the tough, bare-knuckled longshoreman made famous by gritty portrayals in Arthur Miller's play "A View from the Bridge," Hubert Selby's "Last Exit to Brooklyn" and Budd Schulberg's novel "On the Waterfront."
Though many of the surrounding neighborhoods have long been affluent, Red Hook was cut off from the rest of the borough in the late 1930s by the construction of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway.
Once the expressway was completed, "the vicious gyre of urban decay began -- and widened," wrote historian Robert A. Caro. Red Hook spiraled into a deeper depression.
In recent years, talk of developing Red Hook has gained speed. The idea of the trolley has created considerable local buzz, but political support has been slow.
"Politicians are pragmatists, so they aren't going to truly get behind this unless they sense a groundswell of public support," Diamond said.
That could change with the arrival of newly Brooklyn Borough President Marty Markowitz, who threw his support behind the plan within two weeks of taking office.
"We'd like to see Red Hook be connected to the rest of Brooklyn," said his spokesman, Glenn von Nostitz. "And since you might even get some tourists to go down, we'd like to encourage that."
Money is another matter. Diamond anticipates that the entire project, including laying all the track, extending the power supply and fixing up all the cars, would cost between $4 million and $5 million.
So far, BHRA has gotten close to $400,000 for the project through grants from the federal Department of Transportation and are currently applying for more.
"This could really be done at almost no cost to the city," Diamond said.
With that money, the volunteers have been able to purchase 17 art deco-style trolley cars from Boston and Buffalo and have refurbished most of them. They have also put down the first several hundred feet of track on the southern tip of the peninsula.
But financing for the project has recently hit a stumbling block. The type of grant BHRA receives requires sponsorship from a local government agency.
Up until now, that has come from the city's Department of Transportation, but a dispute about a clause in the grant provision has caused the NYCDOT to withdraw that sponsorship, leaving the future of the project up in the air.
In the meantime, Diamond and his crew toil away out of love for the trolleys.
"I look at it as a type of industrial sculpture, and I'm having the time of my live re-exploring industrialism," said Gregory Castillo, 41, the project's vice president and head of construction.
"There's definitely a Zen component to this."
This story sounds like "the light at the end of the tunnel". Good luck Bob, can't wait to see and ride those trolley's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't hold your breath. According to the news on TV last night, the DOT has cut the funding to the project.
What was the path going to be, Up and down Columbia St.?
From a pier at the end of Van Brunt, West one block to Conever North to Verona (about 10 blocks).
Currently they're working on a loop near the pier.
Mr rt__:^)
This is the same article that was picked up by the Middletown (CT) Press on Jan 18th., BUT I don't see the last dozen parr.
Mr rt__:^)
This story sounds like "the light at the end of the tunnel". Good luck Bob, can't wait to see and ride those trolley's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't hold your breath. According to the news on TV last night, the DOT has cut the funding to the project.
What was the path going to be, Up and down Columbia St.?
From a pier at the end of Van Brunt, West one block to Conever North to Verona (about 10 blocks).
Currently they're working on a loop near the pier.
Mr rt__:^)
Sounds like unless voters in the Poconos and the Scranton area push their state reps to come up with the matching funds down in Harrisburgh, this is one of those projects that's always going to be 3-5 years off. The feds won't pony up their $$$ unless Pennsylvania shows its willing to put in their share.
could not find much info on this on thier "oficial website"
bummer..!!...........lol!
http://www.metrolinktrains.com/
oh well.....
Well the shortage of cars in the B division have made passengers up set on some lines, mainly the G line. I say that the MTA push to make the next train building the R-160 have its order at 1,000 to 1,500 cars. This will defintly enable to have most if not all lines run with full train sets. Also it will allow for some R-40/42/44/46 cars to be retired.
I wonder if there's an option to extend the R143 order?
The R143 already used its option order. The original contract was 100 cars, with an extension to the current 212 cars.
The plan is for the R-160 order to be 660 cars. However, the thought of putting an option for another 330 cars (for a total of 990) into the contract has been considered. We'll have to wait until the contract hits the street to find out whether that option makes it into the final version, and then (if it does) we'll have to see whether NYCT has enough money to buy them.
As things stand, some R-40 and R-42 cars (along with all R-38s) ARE planned to be replaced by the 660-car order.
David
The plan is for the R-160 order to be 660 cars. However, the thought of putting an option for another 330 cars (for a total of 990) into the contract has been considered...As things stand, some R-40 and R-42 cars (along with all R-38s) ARE planned to be replaced by the 660-car order.
There are currently: 196-R38's; 292-R40S'; 99-R40M's and 390 R42's, for a total of for a total of 977 cars. As things stand, ordering 990 cars and junking all the 60-foot LAHT cars would result in reducing the number of available cars because of the 4 and 5 car units on the new cars.
a) I never said that 990 R-160s, if ordered, would replace all of the R-38 through R-42 cars. That's a supposition on Mr. Bauman's part (though, I suspect, not without some merit).
b) Mr. Bauman's contention that car availability would be reduced because the R-160s will come in 4- and 5-car units may also have some merit, but it is subjective (and I don't need to see formulae that "prove" otherwise, because they don't). We've gone back and forth on this, and it always degenerates into a discussion of the usefulness of Mean Distance Between Failures as an indicator of fleet availability and reliability and how it translates into service on the road -- I don't think anybody's served by disinterring that horse yet again.
DAvid
a) I never said that 990 R-160s, if ordered, would replace all of the R-38 through R-42 cars.
They're going to have to. None of the non-R32 60' cars could possibly be made to last beyond 2010. If another contract isn't made beyond the R160, an even worse car crunch will be felt in 8 years.
To this layman, the R-38 and R-42 look like they're in pretty decent shape. I don't see why they all must be retired within the next eight years. They look better than the Redbirds did in 1994, and many of the Redbirds could easily last a few more years.
They are rusting from the inside out. The R38, in fact, has such a problem with leaking & rusting roofs that they are slated to be retired first.
Personally I think they have the worst acceleration of the whole subway fleet.
THE 100 R40Ms are in good shape, they could probably be kept as spares
So long railfan windows. Combined w/ the M7's there will be absolutely no reason to visit NYC.
Right. Because the only reason to come to NY is to look out the front window of a train.
Get a life.
-Hank
Can you think of any others?
I went to Hoboken to show off our NRHS Chapter's E8s ("DL&W 807", nee PRR 5761 and "DL&W 808",nee PRR 5702) on the way, I rode a PATH train and of course occupied the foamer throne. I was happy to see the unique view this window provided but the highlight of this trip was the opportunity to show off our E's (they look better than the day they were built, especially since the nose rings are GON, one of my friends used one of them for a boat anchor, a fitting fate for that signature of PRR (yecch) ugliness.
Where are those two locomotives stored at? I would like to take another look at them, but if they will be shown at the next TRY Transit festival in September of this year, I will wait. Somehow I believe that the festival will be held on a different date, as the memory of Osama Bin Lousy's monstrous crimes will be painfully brought back this coming September.
As a matter of fact, i can. The pastrami at Katz's is worth a 3,000 mile trip to get.
"Can you think of any others?"
UMM, let me think about this one for a minute....okay, I think I've got it now: LIKE MAYBE ITS ONE OF (AND TO MANY IT IS THE) GREATEST CITY IN THE WORLD AND THERE ARE A MILLION THINGS TO DO??? Honestly, was this post a joke or were u serious? -Nick
He is a joke
Aside from railfanning there is nothing worth the expense of me going to New York rather than accross the river to Philly. New York has little going for it except that it is "name brand". What makes New York unique is that it has a 400+ mile roller coaster system that costs $1.50 per ride. With that set to close w/in the next 10 years New York is as attractive as any other large city.
Well ask the metro-north guys cause they are friendly (or crual but out of 20 rides, 9 were royally pissed at me (I didn't lean on their door)). Try the bombadier coaches (non-powered, used on trains directly to Danbury (no connecting train). The rear of the train has the best railfan window of all the metro-north cars. But those trains are transverse and there is no guarentee that they will let you in but man they have GOOD windows. Now if they allowed me into the Diesel Locomotive (genesis).....
Mike, hold that thought!
there will be absolutely no reason to visit NYC.
- Broadway plays and musicals
- Shopping
- Lincoln Center
- Carnegie Hall
- The Empire State Building
- A subway system that's so fascinating that you can enjoy it even without a railfan window
- The best restaurants in the world
- The stunning skyline at night
- The stunning skyline during the day
- Central Park
- The New York Yankees, Mets, Knicks and Rangers (Giants and Jets don't count for this since they play in Jersey)
- Coney Island
- The Metropolitan Museum of Art
- The American Museum of Natural History
- The Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum
- The Metropolitan Museum of Modern Art
- The Whitney Museum
- Flushing Meadows Corona Park
Etc, etc. Shut the hell up.
Dan
There are currently 3230 cars in the Div B fleet. Excluding the 9 R110B's, this leaves 1572 60-foot cars and 1649 75-footers for an equivalent total of 3633 60-foot cars.
You propose to have a fleet composed of: 594-R32-s; 425-R68's; 200-R68A's; 212-R143's and 1500-R160's. This would mean there would be 2306 60-footers and 625 75-footers for an equivalent total of 3087 60-foot cars.
Would you please explain how reducing the current fleet by 15% will eliminate the car shortage problem?
I think that the R46s would stay
The only "B" division cars that will be retired this time around will most likely be the R-38/40/40M/42s. All of these older cars amount to about a thousand cars total.
#3 West End Jeff
Like I predicted...........the R-32 is the BEST performer in "B" division history......I'd like to see NYCT/MTA do a re-rebuild *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
As you might be aware the R-32s hads stainless steel roofs instead of ordinary painted steel roofs which helped them to last longer.
#3 West End Jeff
The R-32s have stainless steel everything, to be exact.
The Budd Company knew what they were doing when they built the R-32s.
#3 West End Jeff
You said it.
I will miss my favorite R32, 38, 42, and 40M if they are to be retire and replaced by R160 anytime soon. :(
NO R32s WILL BE LEAVING!!!!!!!!!!!
The R-32s are not going to be retired anytime soon. They're actually in better shape than the R-38/40/40M/42s.
#3 West End Jeff
The R-32s will make it to 50 years and then some.
The R-32s could wind up being amongst the longest lived cars in the system. Suggestions for the next upgrade. Automatic announcements that work at all times and door chimes. I'd also restore the intoerior to the original robins egg blue color scheme. I'd also upgrade the electronic signs. I'd also lash them up as 5 car sets and have full width cabs. Maybe the R-32s could last 60 or 70 years by which time the R-62s and the R-68s will be ready for retirement.
#3 West End Jeff
YA want transvese CABS? Motormen don't need them! (conductors do). I wish the R-68s were coupled so that there was a railfan window at the ends and a transverse in the middle.
There is probably a way that they can do that with the R-68s. They would need to run them with the small cabs on the outside end of the train. This of course depends if the controllers are operable from the small cab end of the R-68s.
#3 West End Jeff
I saw R-62s like that. So I think you can do that also with the R-68s.
It would be interesting if they ran a train of R-68s with the T/O in the small cab.
#3 West End Jeff
In the early to mid-90's they DID. On the Brighton Express [a.k.a.: ex- (Q)]
Stuart, RLine86Man
It must have been interesting for the T/O to operate a 75' long car in a small cab rather than a transverse cab.
#3 West End Jeff
I wouldn't know how they pulled it off...just know they DID.
Stuart, RLine86Man
As the controllers are like the ones in the 60ft cars (SMEE), it must not have been much different from an R-42. What's kind of different is operating those old style controllers (with the brake handle) in a full width cab. Especially since they are all in the "south" district, where they don't assign me often.
I believe in another thread, it was said that this was done around 1994.
The R-32 was made by Budd of Philadelphia (the el goes past the plant near girard), if im not mistaken. Good ol' Philly pride. Philly makes subway cars that last!
Were the Toronto Cars made by Budd? They had a very Budd like look to them. How many of that modle were made and where are they now?
avid
Philly.......flat 'bretzels' and Atwater Kent radios. CI Peter
> The R-32 was made by Budd of Philadelphia
What ever happened to that company?
- Lyle Goldman
They went out of the passenger car industry...it's interesting to note that the LIRR M-1 and M-3 fleet are all also built by (with "the 'Bud' frog voice") Budd, and that was after the R-32's.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Interesting, in that the M-1 and M-3 cars are similar in appearance to the TA's R-44 which was a St. Louis Car product.
I know!!!!!!!!!! (and to the R-46's too)
Stuart, RLine86Man
The R-46 was built by Pullmen Standard, not sure of the R-44.
The R-44s were built by GSI-St. Louis Car Co., which got out of the passenger car business afterwards, if not out of business entirely.
Yes, R-46: PullmAn Standard (which is outta the biz)
R-44: The LAST Saint Louie Car Co. cars built for the TeeAyy *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
> They went out of the passenger car industry.
What industry are they in now?
- Lyle Goldman
The "bankruptcy" industry ... and it's making a huge comeback. :)
If they were as good at building train cars as everyone here seems to think they were, how did they go out of business?
- Lyle Goldman
Simple ... an expensive operation that got car orders every 15 years or so in small amounts. Budd went under in the 70's when NOBODY was buying railcars anymore. ACF, St Louis Car and Pullman went under for the same reasons at about the same time.
I read in the newspapers at the time (I'm not a historian and haven't researched it) that Budd had to pay Penn Central a bundle in penalties for late delivery of the Metroliners because they didn't meet specs (150 mph cruising speed).
150 mph in the '70s? With that substandard and aging rail on the PRR pre-Amtrak NEC improvements? Pshhhhhhhhh! Yeah, RIGHT!
Stuart, RLine86Man
The NEC improvements were done in anticipation of the Metroliner.
and then the REimprovements for the Acela.
Stuart, RLine86Man
The metro-liners were built with the most care and attention of any car I've ever heard. I wish they were mass-produced and not experimental. Would anyone know where I could get the blue prints of the metro-liners (enough to rebuild the train)?
Budd did build 600 2600-series L cars for Chicago in the early 80s, and also bid on the order for new South Shore cars in 1980. Unfortunately, they didn't get that contract; IIRC it went to Sumitomo.
Budd was acquired by Thyssen of Germany in the late '70's. In the early '90's they started a subsidiary, Transit America to operate Budd's railcar business. By 1985, Budd/TA were out of the railcar business and the Budd designs were sold to Bombardier. As for Budd quality, in the Early '60's The Mark Twain Zephyr was shoved into a siding in IL and left to the vandals for 30 YEARS, It is now RESTORED, Try that with anyone else's junk. Budd is Best.
...in the Early '60's The Mark Twain Zephyr was shoved into a siding in IL and left to the vandals for 30 YEARS, It is now RESTORED...
I saw some photographs of it recently on a site (linked from a SubTalk post for other reasons) indicating that it is for sale. In those photographs at least it is most definitely NOT restored... however, the stainless steel skeleton is there, so it could be reconstructed. Essentially nothing is left of the interior though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
> In the early '90's they started a subsidiary, Transit America to operate Budd's railcar business.
> By 1985, Budd/TA were out of the railcar business and the Budd designs were sold to Bombardier.
I don't understand. Budd/Transit America went out of the railcar business five years before it was created? Am I missing something here?
- Lyle Goldman
I made a typo, Budd started TA in about 1982.
Ummmmm, NO Industry......they's dun't exist anymo' Just like all of the other pre-Bombardier & Kawasaki builders. [ACF, St. Louie and Pull-my-chain--Standard]
Stuart, RLine86Man
Budd is in the Automotive components business.
Really? Coooooool. :) Figured they'd turn to a more profitable business like that...too bad they AREN'T still in the railcar industry...we all miss their reliability.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Just get put a hireing ad on subtalk for a new Rail company and you will get quality. The reason why Budd was so good is because they were interested in quality and the Top Brass were deep railfans and were loyal to the train industry. Kowasaki and Bombthedeer are just interest in profit and if you ask what is the train gauge in north american they will say "Ask the technical manager". The quality of Budd can only be created by the people who love the train industry as if it were their own child.
Which top managers at Budd were railfans?
I guess all because they have to be diehard railfans to build such good cars.
"I guess all because they have to be diehard railfans to build such good cars."
So then you can't name any of the top execs at Budd who were also railfans? Sorry - I thought you knew what you were talking about.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do partially educated guesses.
No, you obviously don't. Budd, like almost all corporations, was motivated by profit. The Shotweld® process was developed as a means to cut costs and make stainless steel construction profitable in new markets, one of which just so happened to be railcars, not out of any particular enthusiasm on the part of its executives for the railroads in general or the railcar industry in particular.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IF 1000 cars are ordered for the 160 order, and about 1000 cars are replaced, wouldn't we be in the same state that we are in now? Wouldn't there still be a B division shortage?
Don't forget the R143 option frees up approximately 212 cars. That should provide a little more breathing room. I say approximately because no one knows if any of them will be OOS for SMS or other projects. 212 cars is 26 8-car trains or 21 10-car trains, plus a few spares.
Shawn.
No 10-car trains. The R-143s will all be in 4-car sets.
David
So they will be of no use to the BMT/IND, and will only benefit the J,M,Z,L lines. Is this right?
The R143s were primarily created for use on the L line for CBTC testing. Rumor has it that the leftovers will be assigned to the M line for OPTO when the M runs in shuttle service. When all the R143s are in then we will know what is really going to happen. Until then it's pointless going over the same information over and over.
Shawn.
are u kidding! the R44s are supposed to go with the R160s but the R46 are supposed to get rebuilt and so are the R32s so both those trains are staying! and i am happy because i have alot of childhood memories on the R32 Es and R46s Fs. when i become a Motorman it will be like remembering childhood except i will be controlling the train rather than being a passenger. i do plan to apply for Trackworker when it comes out
> the R46 are supposed to get rebuilt
Weren't they already rebuilt?
- Lyle Goldman
Yep. 1990-1991 by Morrison-Knudsen, Co. (in upstate somewhere)
Some of them were overhauled by the TA's employees at the 207th Street Shops.
That's the R-44......NONE (and I mean NONE) of them were GOH'd by the TA. The MKCo. GOH'd the R-46's because of several reasons. (None that I realllly know right now, maybe because CI was closed for renovation [still is, I think] and 207th was busy with the 44's.)
The contract for the R-46 called for Morrison knudsen to overhaul all 752 R-46s. Morison Knudsen also had the contract to overhaul all R-44s. The TA was subcontracted by MK to do approximately 1/2 of the R-44s fleet at Coney Island because of other contractual production issues.
I love it...the TA contracted out MK to GOH the R-44's and then MK turns around and says "can we SUBcontract you to do 1/2 of this fleet?" *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
The Fleecing of America © .
> 207th was busy with the 44's.
Weren't all the R-44 cars overhauled after all the R-46 cars were finished being overhauled? I seem to remeber a time in Fall 1991 when all R-46 cars were overhauled and none of the R-44's were.
- Lyle Goldman
For that question's answer, I defer to either the R-44 page on this here site, or to the Train Deude, the TA's expert on this subject.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Sumitomo
Shawn.
Sumitomo *hears ancient Chinese GONG "toll"* in Elmira Heights redid ALL of the R-40 SLANTS (not the Mods...MKCo did those, too)
Seems we did ALOT of biz with MK in the '80s.......all the way from some of the redboids to the 42's and then the 46's.
Stuart, RLine86Man
sumitomo also redid the mods, MK redid the 42s
Now, someone answer this question:
Why in this order--the Contract R-40--did they have SLANTS and "MODIFIEDS" built? Why didn't they just go with one or another and not BOTH?????
Stuart, RLine86Man
The modifieds came about because they realized that the slants were just not gonna work. It was to be all slants originally.
Peace,
ANDEE
And Sumitomo wouldn't "modify" (forgive the pun) the SLANTS to conform with the MODS already manufactured during the GOH??
Stuart, RLine86Man
Well the R-40 mods were of a different blue print base than of the slants. One architech did the slants and another did the mods. These were 2 different cars and had different bodys. The reason the R-40s slants and mod excist is because when they found the slants to be bad the cars were still being built so the TA told (the builders of the R-40) to switch blueprints and build the rest of the cars to the MOD blueprint.
The slants as delivered had no safety barrier between slanted ends. The TA added the metal barriers and had the unbuilt cars changed to 40M (modified). I am sure Wayne can elaborate more on his favorite cars.
NYCT paid MK $990 million for the various GOH programs.
Dayyyyyyyyyyyyyyum...that's what yous get for Deferred Maintenance!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
> Sumitomo
What about it?
- Lyle Goldman
I got carried away and didn't realize the discussion was about R44s. I was offering input as to who they were rebuilt by, but they weren't rebuilt by Sumitomo but those were R40s. Nevermind.
Shaen.
Railroad cars, in general, should be overhauled every 12 years. That's the convention (seldom practiced).
a) He said "some" of the R-40/R-42/R-44/R-46 cars, not "all"
b) He said 1,000 to 1,500 cars in the text, though not on the subject line
David
You neglected to add the 650 R46's currently in service, which will probably see another 25 years of service at a minimum.
752 R-46s, not 650
David
"You propose to have a fleet composed of: 594-R32-s; 425-R68's; 200-R68A's; 212-R143's and 1500-R160's."
Mr. Rivera wrote "Also it will allow for some R-40/42/44/46 cars to be retired.", The operative word being SOME. While I disagree with his assumptions, I would remind you of your criticism of me for mis-reading your (far less clearly written) post a week or so ago. I hope you are better with your slide rule than you are wit the english language. None the less, I think your point is correct.
> wit the english language.
You mean with the English language, with an h and a capital E.
- Lyle Goldman
And how are you going to pay for these cars with the city and state budget crunch?
Deferred maintenance!
You've gotta be kidding.
Why wouldn't it be a good idea to take the LIRR M-1s and throw them in the subway and have them serve their lives out in the subway? They will only be able to operate on the IND lines cause of the 85 foot thing.
I would assume the M1's at 85 feet are TOO long even for the IND. They had a hard time getting the 75 foot cars to run. Sides of tunnels had to shaved in certain spots.
Shawn.
Aye. Unless you want another version of Rolling Stock Demolition Derby *lmao* you know, to (ahem) "retire" the M-1s from service.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Not only is their 85' length too long to fit comfortably (if at all) on even the IND lines, they are six inches wider then B-division rolling stock and their motors are designed for 750VDC, meaning that they would have to be replaced/modified (someone who knows what they're talking about is welcome to help me out here). They're also in pretty crappy shape and with only two doors per car would have insane dwell times.
Bottom line, the M-1s are not subway cars and cannot be used as such.
I agree...we've got 'nuff problems with the 75 footers, let alone having cars that are --10-- whole feet longer, with even LESS amount of doors available to "traffic".....fuhgetabouit!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I can just imagine trying to load an M-1 E train at Roosevelt Ave.-Jackson Heights at 7:15 AM on any given weekday.
7:15.03- 7 car train of M-1s (595 feet long) stops at the 10 car marker at Roosevelt.
7:15.06- Doors open.
7:15.08- Conductor makes announcements. "This is Roosevelt Ave. Transfer here for the R, V and 7 trains. Manhattan-bound E train, next stop is Queens Plaza. Use all the doors, stand clear of the closing doors.
7:17.08- Conductor continues to make announcements. "Ladies and gentlemen, do not hold the doors! Use all available doors to board this train. Stand clear of the closing doors!"
7:17.10- Conductor frantically tries to slam doors to no avail as immense loads of passengers continue to shove past one another in a frantic attempt to make the train.
7:18.23- Train finally leaves the station after the conductor has been yelling for three straight minutes. Meanwhile, two R-46 trains (R and V) have come through, dumping pax and leaving the station within 30 seconds.
7:30.00- M-1s yanked from service after causing 40 minute delays on Queens Boulevard.
Sounds like fun, no?
*lmfao* No.......it does naught
Stuart, RLine86Man
What if they finnished their life on MN? Or sold to another Railroad?
ship 'em to Staten Island, swap car for car , take GE R/44s for use on "A" line , send R/38 to under strength "G" and "V", extend "V" to 179th as local, let "F" run eggspress.
avid
NO FRIGGIN' WAY!!!!!!!!
Same way we're going to pay for that helath care package ... pss the bill, spend the money and tell everyone the feds will pay for it after they said "no" ... either that or video keno using the new digital signs ...
This reminds me of a radio interview with the superintendent of one of Metro Denver's school districts some years ago. He mentioned some of the suggestions they received to avert a budger shortfall, and one of those was having a bake sale. Without skipping a beat, he quipped, "Well, it would have to be the biggest one in history".
How were the R46's paid for during the horrific recessionist 1970's? The purchase of these new cars is not an option, it's a necessity. Do I see 2nd Ave money being diverted yet again?
. Do I see 2nd Ave money being diverted yet again?
WHAT Second Avenue money ???
The money which will be allocated for the 2nd Ave construction in the future.
The R-46 order was placed in 1972, prior to the city's fiscal crisis. It was paid for by federal as well as city funds.
David
One thing. Will it have R-143 style, unmodified R-46 (can't see the driver but the window doen't triple everything, or like R-32 windows?
No one knows. It does not exist yet.
Shawn.
Who is designing it? Where are the blue prints?
No one yet. There are no blue prints. This contract DOES NOT EXIST, yet. Get a box of crayons and submit your designs to the MTA. When the contract is up for bids, then we will know all the details. Don't hold your breath waiting for it either. The TA has just bought some thing like $25 billion worth of new cars between the R142(A)s and R143s. Unless I'm totally off or something.
Shawn.
Er, I think $25 billion might be a little excessive. I believe the price was something like $1.1 million/car. According to http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142.html, the R-142/142A order is 1,080 cars with a 380 car option order (taken). According to http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142.html, the R-143 order is to be 212 cars.
Total cars ordered: 1,672
Total cost: about $1.8 billion
Am I anywhere near correct?
Dan
1B, 839M, 200G roughly....
With those numbers. That assumes that the $1.1 million figure is correct, something I didn't want to do if I had no direct proof. The point is that the orders don't total $25 billion, a figure that represents 5/8 of New York City's 2001 budget.
Dan
I know..... 25B seems like a WAY bit too much for only 1,600+ cars....
Stuart, RLine86Man
How do they calculate the number of trains needed for a particular line? What I think is you take the time it takes for one round trip and then dividing that number by the headway. It that right?
I trust Train Dude is going to come up with a post that reads something like, "well actually, there is an art in determining the number of trainsets. For example, if we know that the Lord Mayor lives on this line, then we will give it more trainsets just so that the extra sets can clog up the signalling system and make the service go slow as hell"...
Rob, I think that you are basically correct, except there are some peak hour considerations, for example if you tried to stuff too many trainsets through the bottleneck then actually it just makes the congestion worse, so if your headway is 4 mins and in fact trains are taking 5 mins in each signal section to board/unboard/accelerate/decelerate then you would do better scheduling for a 5 min headway rather than a 4 min headway, even if you advertize to the public a 4 min headway. This is the subject of much research at MBTA I believe. I think really it just comes down to experience; you put x sets on, and if you find that you have reliability problems when turning sets, you try x+1 sets, and see if it works... and if you find congestion, you try x-1 sets... there are idiosyncracies in the system which no modeller can calculate so it's easier to do the trial-and-error -- oh and to listen to what the elders, like Train Dude, has to say about it.
Lexcie
...except there are some peak hour considerations, for example if you tried to stuff too many trainsets through the bottleneck then actually it just makes the congestion worse, so if your headway is 4 mins and in fact trains are taking 5 mins in each signal section to board/unboard/accelerate/decelerate then you would do better scheduling for a 5 min headway rather than a 4 min headway, even if you advertize to the public a 4 min headway. This is the subject of much research at MBTA...
The average speed for the MBTA was 22.0 mph in 2000, according to the National Transportation Database. The average train would travel 7762 feet in 4 minutes. Just how long are those signal blocks on the MBTA, if they cannot clear in 4 minutes?
I think really it just comes down to experience; you put x sets on, and if you find that you have reliability problems when turning sets, you try x+1 sets, and see if it works... and if you find congestion, you try x-1 sets... there are idiosyncracies in the system which no modeller can calculate so it's easier to do the trial-and-error -- oh and to listen to what the elders, like Train Dude, has to say about it.
Modellers can be as incompetent as transit managers. Queueing theory has been understood a very long time. There shoud not be many reasons why the number of required trains should deviate from the theoretical value.
The average speed for the MBTA was 22.0 mph in 2000, according to the National Transportation Database. The average train would travel 7762 feet in 4 minutes. Just how long are those signal blocks on the MBTA, if they cannot clear in 4 minutes?
Two of the busiest stations on MBTA red line, Downtown Xing and Park, are in the same track-circuit block. Dwell time in those two stations on a good day is one minute. Boom goes two minutes. Time between stations is about 30 secs (the sets hit a top speed of 15mph between these two stations, they are about 320 yds apart).
Lexcie
Two of the busiest stations on MBTA red line, Downtown Xing and Park, are in the same track-circuit block.
I do remember the Park St Under and Washington St stations from my student days while riding the Harvard-Ashmont Line.
Are you saying that a train stopped at Washington St will block a train from entering Park St Under? It was not always thus.
They could place the stations on separate track-circuit blocks, if they need to decrease headways. Placing track-circuit blocks without regard to station location reduces both engineering time and service levels.
The average speed for the MBTA was 22.0 mph in 2000, according to the National Transportation Database. The average train would travel 7762 feet in 4 minutes. Just how long are those signal blocks on the MBTA, if they cannot clear in 4 minutes?
Two of the busiest stations on MBTA red line, Downtown Xing and Park, are in the same track-circuit block. Dwell time in those two stations on a good day is one minute. Boom goes two minutes. Time between stations is about 30 secs (the sets hit a top speed of 15mph between these two stations, they are about 320 yds apart).
This shows what you don't know about the system, and why we should listen to people who know what they are talking about, such as experienced dispatchers and managers in the agency.
Lexcie
This shows what you don't know about the system, and why we should listen to people who know what they are talking about, such as experienced dispatchers and managers in the agency.
Dispatchers and managers might tell you how things are. They may be able to operate a system at or near maximum performance, if they are good. Knowing how a system should theoretically perform is not part of their job description.
Observers who listen only to operating personnel are doomed to repeat the same design mistakes.
You appear to assume that operating personnel cannot generate valid ideas for improvement. This would beincorrect.
Granted, a theoretician can be useful. And it helps to ask an outsider with less already invested to take a fresh look at something. But those who do not pay enough attention to operating personnel are truly doomed to failure.
Plus a gap train plus an extra on deck for whatever.
Sometimes weird things happen. The E has 7 or 8 plus a gap on the midnights. In order for the collector to come in and stay as long as needed they have to send the gap to the yard then bring it back a few hours later. Not really dangerous as there are 6 other trains nearby in case of emergency.
Once the number of trainsets required for peak service is calculated, a certain percentage is added to account for routine maintenance. In Chicago, I believe it's on the order of ten percent.
Once the number of trainsets required for peak service is calculated, a certain percentage is added to account for routine maintenance. In Chicago, I believe it's on the order of ten percent.
According to the 2000 National Transportation Database, the CTA has 1190 vehicles in their fleet and 914 cars for maximum service. The NTD's definition of percent spares divides the total fleet by the number required for maximul service. This results in 30% spares. By contrast, NYCT ran a much tighter ship. They had a fleet of 5758 cars and operated 4891 cars in maximum service for a pct spares of 17.7%.
The extra spares do not necessarily get translated into more maintenance. The NTD's measures for maintenance is based on the number of vehicles used in maximum service. The CTA spent 1317.18 man-hours per car in maximum service for maintenance. The comparable figure for NYCT was 1812.77. If these figures were recalculated on the basis of fleet size the results would be: 1011.68 for the CTA and 1539.82 for the NYCT. The average fleet age for the CTA was 16.7 yrs vs. 27.6 yrs for the NYCT. These figures suggest that the CTA cars may age quite rapidly, if these trends continue.
Just a question. I was wondering with the twin towers coming down and the fact that the subeay is below it. my question is were any of the stations damaged cause of what happend.
a person new to the web site
The line and stations south of Chambers on the (1) and (9) routes were seriously damaged, and will take years to repair. The PATH station was just about destroyed. The WTC station of the (E) was essentially undamaged, but is closed because its exits are to Ground Zero. The (N) and (R) were more or less unscathed, but serivice was suspended up through Novermber because of fears they might disturb precarious nearby buildings. They are back in serivice, but skip Cortlandt and Rector which like the WTC (E) station would let passengers out at Ground Zero.
---Andrew
Two nits: The damage to the 1/9 is at Cortlandt, obviously. South of there the line and stations are intact, but closed.
N/R stops at Rector.
Also,
1. No one is saying why the E is still closed. It has many exits that go out into areas outside the ground zero fence.
2. The TA has now announced that 1/9 service to Rector and South Ferry will be restored November 2002.
1. No one is saying why the E is still closed. It has many exits that go out into areas outside the ground zero fence.
IIRC, there's only one exit from the E platform, at the north end, that doesn't lead to the WTC complex.
This is a great theory but not really supported by the facts.
There are several stairs (two or more; not just one) near but not all immediately at the north end of the E platform, visible from the outh end of the A/C platform. There are several street exits along Church St just north of Vesey.
This set of exits might not suffice for the previous volume, but should for the reduced demand now.
There is one exit to the left side of the exit that dumped out into the underground mall, which lead out into Church Street (next to the cemetery at St. Paul's Church). The other exit is down the center of the ramp that leads out from the A towards the WTC complex. You'd have to walk and make a u-turn past the bumper blocks to get at this.
I'm guessing that the reason not to terminate trains at WTC is because all the exits are in the cordoned off area of the site. Remember, the cordon extends to Broadway, so Church Street is totally off limits in the vicinity of WTC. All of the exits of the former H & M IND station (now WTC) are in the restricted zone, while most of the exits of Chambers Street on the line to the Cranberry tunnels are outside the restricted zone.
As an aside- I went to the WTC site on Sunday. A couple of tourists asked me to take a picture of them in front of the site. I said no, and they were stunned.
How would these morons like it if some a-hole burned down their house, and I came over with my family to take pictures in front of the ruins? It took so much willpower on my part to not go ape- had I been alone, I would have.
Additionally, the street vendors were really pissing me off. I saw them selling, and actually saw people wearing "Ground Zero 9-11-01" knit caps! I really wanted to beat someone's skull in. I didn't lose anyone close to me, but gee, how about I commemorate your grandmother's funeral with a souvenier tee-shirt?
At first I was appalled at the thought of observation platforms being erected at Ground Zero. Believe it or not, such an idea can be done in good taste if the proper respect and attitude are exhibited.
I agree that this entire episode has been commercialized and trilialized ad nauseum. Everyone mourns differently, and some people who have lost loved ones may feel it therapeutic to see Ground Zero in much the same way that people visit their loved ones' graves. That's fine, but I do feel considerable disgust when I hear people bragging they've been to Zero as if it were the latest hot Broadway show- i.e. something they HAVE to see in the name of trendiness.
A few times I've seen Zero on the news- I've no desire to go down there personally- and there always seems to be loads of vendors selling anything with a flag or Fire Department logo on it. There's no shortage of food vendors either, but I grudgingly have to respect their desire to go where the market demands. When I see people posing-and SMILING- for pictures as if they were standing in front of the Statue of Liberty- that's too much.
It's inevitable that people are looking to cash in on this. Tune in any home shopping network show, and they're selling something with the flag on it- even a distorted version of it. Go into any store, and there's T-shirts decorated with designs suggestive of firefighters (since using the official FD logo is technically illegal). All over midtown, sidewalk vendors are hawking photos of the skyline prominently featuring the Towers. They must've raided warehouses for all such pictures they could find.
You could call this good old American enterprise, and unfortunately you wouldn't be wrong.
This is New York, already. If a buck can be made off of something, someone will. Decrying crass commercialism doesn't stop it. All you can do it attempt to regulate it. We have tours of Civil War battlefields and military cemeteries; are these in bad taste too? Is the Grand Guignol of the National Park Service at the Ford's Theater/Peterson House museums inappropriate (they even display the blood-stained pillow under plastic). Is it tasteless to follow the steps of Jack the Ripper in London?
I bet you can book 'Islamic Terror Tours' already. Bus rides around ground zero or past the Jersey City mosques or to the place where Rabbi Kahane was killed.
"This is New York" is not an excuse. The people who are profitting from tragedy deserve to have the living crap pounded out of them. All they care about are themselves and basically spitting on the all the people who lost their lives in that horrible tragedy. "This is New York" is NOT a reason to be an asshole and as a lifelong New Yorker I'm sick and tired of hearing people use those four words to get away with being shameless, bullshit artists.
I see that I'm the only person here who sees no problem in people profiting from death. It's not like these profiteers caused any death, and anything can be done to bring people back to life.
In addition, the dead aren't around to see what's being done, they cannot exact vengeance on anyone. The only people who have the right to have a problem with this are the loved ones of the dead, however at this point these people have received more sympathy and financial assistance than the myriad other individuals who lose acquaintances every day to tragedy and then have those lives deemed less valuable than those that died on September 11.
Also remember that the destruction of the World Trade Center led to economic ruin for many. It only balances out the score if people try to profit from it.
I suppose America is handling the tragedy in its own, uniquely American way. On the one hand it is quite distasteful. I see them selling postcards of the smoldering WTC or Ossama "Wanted Dead OR Alive" T-shirts and I just want to gag. But on the other hand, this is the NYC economy struggling to survive in desperate times. I can understand someone making momey where the money is there to be made.
--Andrew
True, but if tourists are flocking to Zero and posing for picutres in front of the wreckage, that to me is insulting. If they're bragging about going there and talking about it as if it were a Broadway show like Howard said, that to me, is inexcusable.
True, but if tourists are flocking to Zero and posing for picutres in front of the wreckage, that to me is insulting.
To me, it's all about attitude. Are they laughing and smiling? That is inappropriate. If they're somber, then I guess I have to chalk it up to people's deep need to prove that they were in a place to see something important. Which Ground Zero is.
If they're bragging about going there and talking about it as if it were a Broadway show like Howard said, that to me, is inexcusable.
Well, I've talked to a fair number of visitors to NYC, almost all of whom have visited Ground Zero. NONE of them -- not one -- has had anything remotely like that attitude. I'm sure there are a handful, but the people I have observed are respectful of the site's gravity.
"Well, I've talked to a fair number of visitors to NYC, almost all of whom have visited Ground Zero. NONE of them -- not one -- has had anything remotely like that attitude. I'm sure there are a handful, but the people I have observed are respectful of the site's gravity."
My wife and I were in NY as tourists in November. We had not intended to go and be ghouls at Ground Zero, but we got on a Gray Line double-decker tour. The guide said the bus wasn't going to Ground Zero, but unexpectedly the police let the bus through and the driver went there anyway. The guide (clearly upset) said "I'm not saying anything" and we drove silently past. Most of the passengers (me included -- and I'm not an American) were in tears. There was certainly no disrespect. On reflection I'm glad I saw it.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN I"M ONLY GOING TO GET $3.1M??!?!?!
-Hank
All I know is that everytime I come up the NJ Tpke and not
see those two towers I get a sick feeling in my stomach.
I feel so sad and mad that something so awful was done to my
home.
im with you. its horriable to see this happening. i havent been there on the platform. but i have passed by it its wierd to see people there as you said smiling th front of it. me personaly i think that its disrespectful for these people to do that.im an ametur photographer. i take pictures for my personal albums. i would never go there to profit from this. a few weeks before this happened i got some shots of the skyline. when this happened blew them up to 8x10's and gave them out for free. i think people who take pictures of this for profit should be draged out to the street and shot.
"That's fine, but I do feel considerable disgust when I hear people bragging they've been to Zero as if it were the latest hot Broadway show- i.e. something they HAVE to see in the name of trendiness"
I have been to ground zero. I did not lose anyone, but I did not go down for trendiness. I felt like I just needed to go, it was a feeling inside of me. I don't know if anyone really goes there out of trendiness, I think it's more out of curiosity; people just wanna see what was done to our country. As far as bragging about it, the only reason I tell people about it is becausew often they have questions like what it was like and what my feelings were like; it starts healthy discussions. -Nick
I have a 3great-grandfather who died on the losing side in the Civil War (19 Jan 1862, Mill Springs). This is one Civil War battlefield which has not been commercialized. But development, especially on resorty Lake Cumberland (this is Kentucky, TVA reservoir) has moved on. It is considerably less bad than Gettysburg (in fact it's not been 'Gettyburgized', but is simply a still rural place).
Places where lots of innocent-and/or-noble people die all at once are, so far as our secular religion decrees, hallowed, as Mr. Lincoln addressed us, at Gettysburg.
My 3great-grand-pappy died for his stillborn country up on that hill. And not-quite 4000 people died at the World Trade Center. Fewer were killed in action at the Battle of Mill Springs (a.k.a. Fishing Creek, Logan's Cross Roads).
There will be a permanent architecturally significant memorial (oh, how banal this sentence sounds, and oh how banal I expect the memorial to be). What matters to the 3rd and 4th generation is that you have a place to lay flowers.
Us Americans, us NYers want something tall there. Definitions of 'world's tallest building' disagree (broadcasting masts don't count in my book, nor do the very short Petronas Towers). 130 floors of commerce, hoteldom and rich people apartments, surmounted by a TV mast that reaches to 2000 feet does do it. And incorporating a 3000-seat home for the NYC Opera (on the 50th or 70th or 120th floor) would be frosting on the cake.
ctobio,
I think it is sad that people are posing and smiling in front of Ground Zero. The tshirt sales are a bit disturbing as well, but I sort of expected that.
I have not been to NYC since August 28 being near the WTC. I had two family funerals in NY in 2001, traveling 3,000 miles each time. I will admit the images of 9-11 are still with me and find it hard to make reservations to go to NYC on an airplane again. I know I will have to do it as I have to visit my dad's gravesite this year. I also plan to go to Ground Zero and know I will cry there. My dad worked at 1 Liberty Plaza and remember the towers going up as a boy. I will also miss seeing them straight ahead in the distance on the Brighton tracks from where I grew up.
When I plan to go back to NYC I will leave my camera in SF.
ScottinSF
"I'm guessing that the reason not to terminate trains at WTC is because all the exits are in the cordoned off area of the site."
This is not in fact true. There is an exit in front of 90 Church St that is exactly at the fence. Also, there is a passageway to the exits at Church and Park Pl, all of which are already open.
There are lots of theories about why the E isn't open, but as I've said before no one on this board has provided any facts that support the theories.
This is not in fact true. There is an exit in front of 90 Church St that is exactly at the fence. Also, there is a passageway to the exits at Church and Park Pl, all of which are already open.
Hmm. Is the 90 Church Street exit straight up on the sounth end of the E platform, or is it at the A & C Platform, or the shared exit at the north end of the station?
The passageway you also mention is slightly inconvenient, as it would require a U-Turn after exiting at the south end of the platform. If you dump out the entire contents of a loaded E train on the platform, they either will need to crowd at the north end of the station, or at the aforementioned u-turn to get to the passageway. The old south exit into the underground plaza usually took the brunt of the rush hour volume (though, a lot of those folks don't have an office to go to anymore, if they aren't deceased already).
Most of those folks are still alive, just not working at the WTC any more. Some will return to the WFC in upcoming months.
Yes, the station would be inconvenient. But less inconvenient than waiting for for an A or C at Canal, or walking from Canal. And the volumes would be low enough to avoid dangerous overcrowding.
Well, yeah, I was being a tad melodramatic about the commuters. My guess is that they're waiting for the excavation to be done, and then a temporary exit will be built to accomodate the expected crowds. Having been at Chambers-WTC on many a rush hour, I can tell you that the station was quite packed, and they could use all the exits they can make.
Having been at Chambers-WTC on many a rush hour, I can tell you that the station was quite packed ...
Yeah, but remember that office space for 40,000 people no longer exists. My bet is that 2/3 of the people who used to use that station at rush hour now work Somewhere Else.
Yeah, I thought of that, too, but just how many Queens residents take the E train to Chambers St? While all the square footage lost is significant, it's not likely to be 2/3rds of what was in downtown. Assuming that there's an equal distribution of Queens residents working in downtown, ridership to that station will not decrease all that much. Also, consider that some percentage of the displaced tenants moved into offices within a 1 mile radius. I won't cite numbers because I don't have them. You can't assume that most of the riders exiting Chambers-WTC were going into WTC proper. My dad was one of those who didn't- he walked a couple of blocks to 39 Broadway. Judging from the crowd of people he walked with every day exiting the the complex, I can't make the assumption that 2/3rds of those people stayed in the complex.
>>> My bet is that 2/3 of the people who used to use that station at rush hour now work Somewhere Else. <<<
...or NOwhere else
Peace,
ANDEE
The financial district as a whole had about 80 million sq feet of office space, plus the city owns a whole bunch more that the real estate agents always leave out of their figures. So say 100 million total.
Of that total, 12 million is destroyed (1-7 WTC), probably about 12 million is still being fixed up (most of WFC, Deutsche Bank, East River Savings Bank, 90 & 100 Church St, and others), and probably another 12 million is vacant because of the recession, emotional reactions to Sep. 11, landlord-tenant disputes related to Sep. 11, etc.
The result is a considerable reduction in the number of people who come into the area. In addition, those that used the E train to WTC were more likely to work in a destroyed or still-closed building than those that used other stations.
So I would say there should still be a sizable demand for use of that station, but way lower than previously. My guess owuld be 1/3 of previous demand.
Oops. My bad.
:-) Andrew
While only two stations are still out of service, there were many residual changes to lines that used to serve them AND lines that connect to those lines.
Through October you had such oddities as the suspension of 'N' and 'R' service. The Queens and Brooklyn ends of the 'N' were replaced by the 'W' and 'M' respectively. The Queens and Brooklyn ends of the 'R' were replaced by the 'Q' and 'J' respectively. This was largely due to the shutdown of Broadway local service through the Financial District, requiring all trains between Manhattan and Brooklyn to use the Manhattan Bridge. Through service from Nassau Street to downtown Brooklyn was implemented.
Staten Islanders coming off the ferry were also hugely inconvenienced due to having lost the '1' service immediately below the terminal and the 'N' and 'R' a short block away. Everyone was forced to walk several blocks away to Bowling Green and board '4' and '5' trains already packed with Brooklynites.
Since October 28, 'N' and 'R' service has been fully restored, except that Cortlandt/WTC is being skipped. The major disruption that remains is along IRT West Side. The '1' was diverted away from the WTC and into Brooklyn, replacing the '3'- except at night, when it only runs above Chambers. The '3' is a glorified shuttle running in its original express form only above 14th. The '2' is the big loser. It retains its original routing, but makes all local stops in Manhattan 24/7. This is great for people who use these local stops, as they have two services at all times. It's murder for people who have to take the '2' from Brooklyn, and especially the Bronx, to the West Side.
There's no express service at all from 14th to Chambers, and no skip-stop from 137th to Van Cortlandt. The '9', a supplement to the '1' below 137th, and its skip-stop partner above it, is suspended for the duration. This is an added burden for people who use 103rd through 137th, where there's now only one service, and less express service to switch to at 96th- and that only goes as far as 14th
The 'E' having been cut back one stop from WTC to Canal doesn't seem to have inconvenienced too many people.
Staten Islanders coming off the ferry were also hugely inconvenienced due to having lost the '1' service immediately below the terminal and the 'N' and 'R' a short block away. Everyone was forced to walk several blocks away to Bowling Green and board '4' and '5' trains already packed with Brooklynites.
I'd classify that as a moderate inconvenience. In addition to the 4/5, the J/M was a few blocks further and the 1/2 one block past that. Far from ideal, but not the end of the world.
The major disruption that remains is along IRT West Side. The '1' was diverted away from the WTC and into Brooklyn, replacing the '3'- except at night, when it only runs above Chambers. The '3' is a glorified shuttle running in its original express form only above 14th. The '2' is the big loser. It retains its original routing, but makes all local stops in Manhattan 24/7. This is great for people who use these local stops, as they have two services at all times. It's murder for people who have to take the '2' from Brooklyn, and especially the Bronx, to the West Side.
It's an additional eight minutes from Chambers to 96 -- far from murder. The busiest stops on the line, by far, are between 34 and 96; a minority of the passengers uses the Brooklyn and Bronx segments.
There's no express service at all from 14th to Chambers, and no skip-stop from 137th to Van Cortlandt. The '9', a supplement to the '1' below 137th, and its skip-stop partner above it, is suspended for the duration. This is an added burden for people who use 103rd through 137th, where there's now only one service, and less express service to switch to at 96th- and that only goes as far as 14th
The 1 and 9 were never treated as separate services. Service today on the 1 is only slightly less than combined 1/9 service before 9/11. Skip-stop was a failure to begin with, saving up to two minutes for those at 242 and forcing those at skip-stop stations to wait much longer than that as trains passed without stopping. Most passengers north of 137 have better rush hour service than they've had since 1989.
The 'E' having been cut back one stop from WTC to Canal doesn't seem to have inconvenienced too many people.
I guess the C riders, who have to sit behind E's at Canal, don't count.
>>> It's an additional eight minutes from Chambers to 96 -- far from murder. The busiest stops on the line, by far, are between 34 and 96; a minority of the passengers uses the Brooklyn and Bronx segments.<<<
I seriously doubt that. As someone who rides the 2 from the Bronx almost every day, I can say that it is heavily crowded during rush hours and on weekends. And I can say that many Bronx riders don't appreciate the fact that the 2 is now local. I've ridden the whole local and express routes. If the local is only eight minutes longer, then those must have been the longest eight minute I've ever gone through. People hold doors, locals make connections with expresses, people jam onto one train as if was making it's last run forever. And given how busy the Upper West Side local stops are, the local trains can be held up.
Since 9/11, the 2 has gone from bad to worse. I can say that it is one of the most unpredictable lines in the system. Unpredictable means unreliable. It falls behind schedule a lot. I know because it takes me forever to get a 2. Many times, I'll be waiting for the 2 at my home station and I'll be there waiting for almost 10 minutes and a 2 train will come through the station, with passengers on board, and it will blow right through the station. And the next train doesn't come for another 10 minutes. I had an appointment at Pace University today at 5:00 pm. I was 20 minutes late. I was stuck at my home station for 15 minutes waiting for a 2 train, because the first one blew right through my station after waiting there 10 minutes. On my way home this evening, the Dyre Avenue 5 train that I was on had to be rerouted to 241st Street, to fill a gap in 2 service (must have been a delay on the 2).
I'm telling you, the TA forcing the 2 onto the local stops, making a long subway line even longer, has made it very unreliable and unpredictable. All the stops that it makes in the Bronx, the four additional stops in Harlem, all the stops in Brooklyn, and now, all 12 7th Avenue Local stops. Please. This does not benefit Bronx and Brooklyn riders.
Bronx and Brooklyn riders ARE the majority of 2 train riders. I don't care about statistics that show that the Upper West Side local stations are far busier than the Bronx and Brooklyn stops. I know what I see. Why don't you ride the 2 north of 96th Street in the middle of rush hour? You will see exactly how crowded and how slow it really is. The 2 train really is the big loser in the post-9/11 service changes. They retained the whole curvy route AND took away the one good part about it: the fast West Side Express run. And they did NOT have to do that. They could have made the 3 local and kept it running to New Lots Avenue. They could have kept the 2 express and terminated it at 14th Street. The 1 could have been rerouted to Flatbush Avenue to replace the 2 in Brooklyn. But that's not gonna happen now and we Bronx riders (who make up a very large percentage of the 2 train's ridership) are just going to have to be forced onto the overloaded local tracks and be forced to deal with more delays and worse service until the 1 line is ready for service to resume to South Ferry.
"They could have made the 3 local and kept it running to New Lots Avenue. They could have kept the 2 express and terminated it at 14th Street. The 1 could have been rerouted to Flatbush Avenue to replace the 2 in Brooklyn."
You make a good point. They violated a basic principle: when an express and a local go out on more-or-less the same line (the 3 to the Bronx is a fairly minor offshoot of the 2) the local should terminate earlier, not the express.
This is how they do it on Queens Blvd, on the A/C (both Brooklyn and Manhattan ends), and on the 6. The only current permanent exception I know is the 4 terminating at Utica, which I guess is required by the track layout (can't turn locals around there).
"The only current permanent exception I know is the 4 terminating at Utica, which I guess is required by the track layout (can't turn locals around there)."
You forgot one: Brighton expresses terminate at Brighton Beach while the locals continue three more stops to Coney Island. This is also due to the track layout. In fact, from 1967 through 1973, the 'D' ran as the Brighton express during weekdays and continued to Coney, while the 'QB' and 'QJ' locals ended at Brighton. But this required an awkward switching move just north of the Brighton terminal that caused a lot of congestion, so from then on the express always ended at Brighton.
The powers that be probably figure the '2' is a much better-known route than the '3' so it should keep its end-to-end original routing, albeit with 12 extra local stops. The track configuration at Chambers probably figured into this decision as well.
In terms of the Brighton, why can't they do this? Merge the local onto the express track north of Brighton Bch. Run both the lcl and exp into the station on the express track. Put the locals onto one of the layup tracks and let the express trains run right through stopping at the express tracks at Ocean Parkway and going right in to Coney Island. For the locals they wouldn't wait at the station, they'd wait at the layup tracks. When they get off the layup tracks they run right in to Brighton Beach and then branch off to the local tracks north of the station to go back to Manhattan. Set it up so that the local leaves the layup track just after an exp went through so no expresses are held up. This can't be too hard, the expresses aren't too frequent. Remember they only have two tracks at 57th for both the local and the express to relay.
How about installing a couple of new switches closer to Coney Island?
Hey!!!! Can't the expresses and locals both go to CI? They both turn at 57th don't they? I'm sure having one or two more R40s on the line wouldn't be a problem.
If Q trains had to leave Stillwell as quickly as they leave 57, they'd never get cleaned.
For the same reason, the N can't share the W platform at Stillwell (after all, they share a single platform at Ditmars) -- one has to be cut back.
That arrangement on the Brighton lasted from November 27, 1967 until August 18, 1968. On August 18, the D swapped terminals with the QB and QJ and began terminating at Brighton Beach when it ran express in Brooklyn. During nights and weekends when the D made all local stops, it was extended to Coney Island.
In 1970 and 1971 when I worked there, the BB D terminated at BB as an express. The ones marked up as Coney Island were locals ... was I in a time warp or were the drugs a whole lot better back then? :)
The drugs from dem days wuz betta..........none of dem impurities that the pushas use nowadeys :-D (intentional misspellings, don't knock me, mkay?)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Heh. From what you typed, it would seem they've improved. :)
No, you're correct. D trains running express in Brooklyn terminated at Brighton Beach. When they ran local, they were extended to Coney Island.
I thought I could tell the difference between the underpass at BB vs. walking across the platform at Stillwell when it was my turn to fall back and move the next pile of rolling rubble northbound. Just needed to check that. Heh.
"....and move the next pile of rolling rubble northbound." Kevin, if I were your English teacher, I'd give you an A. That is the best description of an R1/9 ever. A true classic.
Heh. Well, for what it's worth, I *loved* the old girls ... like the 32's they served their time well and outlasted many of their cousins. How quickly we forget the 27's and 30's. :)
Oh, come on. Rolling rubble? That's blasphemy! If you want to know the truth, that's exactly how I felt about the BMT standards when they were still around.
Now now now ... they WERE "wrecks" in their last days ... the reason they were sweet at all in my own eyes is I *knew* how to cut out bad doors, I *knew* how to reset the motor cutouts, I *knew* how to drop a valve to get indication and I *knew* how to deal with bad motors, bad brake valves and how to work around many of the problems so as to get car inspectors to gleefully issue a B/O tag for anything I got myself caught up in ... let's face it, they were dead meat ... made each day interesting though and that's what I signed up for ... :)
How's about "rolling wrecks of rubble"?
Well, actually for a moment there, I thought you were talking about the R-16s....
That would be the Q cars, the standards and other rolling wreckage on the BMT ... made the arnines look SNAZZY. Sorry, had to smack ya back there. :)
The arnines never looked snazzy. At best, they looked severe. Squared off. Institutional. Unimaginative. Government issue. El cheapo. They were indeed rolling wrecks of rubble, the product of a political hack with a chip on his shoulder against the most modern and imaginative private traction company of the time. So there.
Heh. But at least the "wrecks" provided service to da Bronx. That was good enough for me. :)
The BMT would have reached the Bronx too, were it not for the politics.
"Snazzy" isn't a word I could really use for R9s, but when they were new, as in the pictures of them in Sea Beach service, they had a certain good clean railroad car look to them.
They didn't look too great at the end with grafitti and the blue and silver and dirt and all. This was a car that was meant to be a shiny dark olive green.
I wouldn't call the Triplexes "rolling wreckage". They kept going and going and going with next to no maintenance.
The BMT standards, perhaps. Of course, if another class of subway car were to taunt a standard, it would wind up with its nose smashed in.
Ignore the bitchslapping in the background - we're merely doing our own subway impression of the "Angry Beavers" ...
Then there's the good old ball peen hammer.:-) Not to mention duct tape...
Nah ... the duct tape was for the slant 40's and redbirds. All it took was a hammer and a dream to do the arnines. :)
So I see you're going phonetic when referring to the oldtimers.:-)
Nah, was just in a hurry and typing out "R1/9" to keep all factions happy ("it wasn't an R7, it was an R6A-2" and so on) got tedious. A little variety and a "whatdafuh" every now and then is good for the kidneys. Whoops, wrong board. Heh.
Don't mind me. I notice things like that.:-)
The Standards were quaint. They were the BMT. They spent most of their service lives outdoors. They didn't accumulate steel dust. The R1/9s were all sharp corners, hardlines, no soft curves at all (except where the steel dust accumulated). The rolling rubble should have been kept on the harsh all-underground IND lines until they were scrapped.
Kevin, the D Brighton Express terminated regularly at Coney Island from Nov. '67 until about a year or two later. So you just missed it. But also, those arriving on the Brighton around 7:30 P.M. or so and later also terminated at Coney Island, even in your time.
Yep ... and the put-ins also started at Brighton after coming up from Coney. The 32's were left out on the el to get tagged while the old buzzbombs slept peacefully down by the West End line. :)
Thank you very much!!!!!! Brooklyn and Bronx riders are the MAJORITY on the 2 line. Especially in the Bronx. You can keep the 1 line in the city too. Everyone I spoke to (transit workers and pax) wants the 3 to come back to Bklyn because that means express service is back. Also it keeps the bums up in Upper Manhattan and not in Bklyn. 8 minutes is a lot to some people. 8 NY minutes.
On second thought, I see from the MTA's schedule that it runs a max of 11 tph on the 2 and only about 8 on the 3. It's quite possible that you can't turn 11 tph around at 14th St. There is no crossover from the downtown express track to the uptown express track, so all trains have to turn around at the downtown express platform.
So maybe they really are doing the only plan that works.
Why can't they run the #2 express between 96th street and 42nd street? That would at least give the Bronx riders some express service, and still allow them to turn the #3 at 14th. The #2 could switch to the local track between 42nd and 34th, and cross back north of Chambers.
This will happen to an occasional 2 train. Why? Because the local tracks get overburdened from all the 1 and 2 trains that are now using them.
Good guess, but not quite. The local tracks never see more than 21 tph. That's well within capacity constraints.
The reason some 1 and 2 trains bypass local stations is simple. Scheduled local service is insufficient. Dwells on the local are long. Trains fall behind schedule, so they're sent express in an attempt to gain back the time they've lost. (How to best serve the passengers is not considered.)
This happened before 9/11, when in the typical afternoon rush hour, I'd estimate about 1/3 of the scheduled locals ran local. There's somewhat more local service now, so the problem doesn't surface as frequently. It still surfaces on occasion. When it's the 2 that's picked to run express, it's normally switched to the express track since it has to eventually switch in any case.
And nothing except incompetence can explain why, on three or four Sunday mornings, I've watched 2 trains zip past my station on the express track. This has become rare now but it was common in the first month or two of this service pattern.
To answer Bzuck's question: The local stations north of 42 are far busier than those south. Running the 2 local south of 42 and express north of 42 would provide local service where it isn't needed while not providing it where it is needed. Remember, 1 service was reduced slightly after 9/11.
I seriously doubt that. As someone who rides the 2 from the Bronx almost every day, I can say that it is heavily crowded during rush hours and on weekends. And I can say that many Bronx riders don't appreciate the fact that the 2 is now local. I've ridden the whole local and express routes. If the local is only eight minutes longer, then those must have been the longest eight minute I've ever gone through. People hold doors, locals make connections with expresses, people jam onto one train as if was making it's last run forever. And given how busy the Upper West Side local stops are, the local trains can be held up.
My eight-minute figure comes straight off the pre-9/11 timetables. If it's inaccurate, perhaps the schedule is somewhat overoptimistic. OTOH, most subway riders grossly overestimate the time saved by an express. Have you actually timed the local trip from 96 to Chambers on your watch? How long does it take, in your experience? Not that the full 96-Chambers run is actually relevant -- most Bronx riders going as far south as Chambers would use the 4/5.
You are correct: the Upper West Side local stops are extremely busy. Don't you think stops that are so busy should see more than 12 tph scheduled, as was the case before 9/11 in the afternoon rush (never mind that many scheduled locals didn't actually stop at the local stops)? Somebody's train has to stop to provide the needed service increase. Remember, the more service there is, the fewer people each train has to pick up and drop off.
Of course we jam onto the train. That's how we've been trained (pun unintended). Before 9/11, the typical afternoon rush hour experience waiting for the northbound 1/9 ran as follows: wait close to ten minutes, let first train pass because it's invariably skipping local stops, wait another minute or two, and finally board a true local. Platforms were dangerously crowded, tempers ran high, and anyone who didn't push his way onto the local that was actually runing local was most likely in for a long wait. The situation has improved now with the additional local service, but it's going to take many years of decent service to get us out of our habit of boarding the very first local humanly possible, whatever it takes.
Since 9/11, the 2 has gone from bad to worse. I can say that it is one of the most unpredictable lines in the system. Unpredictable means unreliable. It falls behind schedule a lot. I know because it takes me forever to get a 2. Many times, I'll be waiting for the 2 at my home station and I'll be there waiting for almost 10 minutes and a 2 train will come through the station, with passengers on board, and it will blow right through the station. And the next train doesn't come for another 10 minutes. I had an appointment at Pace University today at 5:00 pm. I was 20 minutes late. I was stuck at my home station for 15 minutes waiting for a 2 train, because the first one blew right through my station after waiting there 10 minutes. On my way home this evening, the Dyre Avenue 5 train that I was on had to be rerouted to 241st Street, to fill a gap in 2 service (must have been a delay on the 2).
I'm confused. If you were going to Pace, why didn't you use the 5 or transfer at 149-GC to the 4? (I don't know which station is yours, but only one 2 station is not served by the southbound 5 in the afternoon rush, and that one station cannot be bypassed since it's the end of the line.) Even before 9/11, the East Side was the quicker route to lower Manhattan. At that time of day, the 4/5 has short enough headways to pretty much guarantee a shorter ride, even with a longer wait.
But, in any case, now you understand what the Upper West Side has had to deal with for years. Although the TA has no excuse for that kind of service on a regular basis anywhere, I'd rather see it happen where the local stations aren't terribly busy. Bypassing a local station in the Bronx causes less damage than bypassing a local station on the Upper West Side simply because fewer people are affected. The real solution is to run enough service that trains aren't dragged behind schedule -- then the dispatchers won't be tempted to have them bypass stations in an attempt to get them back on schedule (which IME rarely works, but that's a different issue).
I'm telling you, the TA forcing the 2 onto the local stops, making a long subway line even longer, has made it very unreliable and unpredictable. All the stops that it makes in the Bronx, the four additional stops in Harlem, all the stops in Brooklyn, and now, all 12 7th Avenue Local stops. Please. This does not benefit Bronx and Brooklyn riders.
So everything the TA does must benefit Bronx and Brooklyn riders?
Incidentally, this change does benefit those Bronx and Brooklyn riders bound for local stops in Manhattan.
Bronx and Brooklyn riders ARE the majority of 2 train riders. I don't care about statistics that show that the Upper West Side local stations are far busier than the Bronx and Brooklyn stops. I know what I see.
Interesting approach you have there. The statistics are based on turnstile counts. If the Bronx stations are undercounted, I'm forced to conclude that turnstile-hopping is a popular hobby in the Bronx. That's not what I want to conclude (nor do I think it's what you want me to conclude). The TA shouldn't adjust service patterns for the convenience of thieves.
I am willing to grant one point: The Upper West Side ridership has far less of a rush hour peak than most of the system. In other words, during rush hour, the UWS stations are only somewhat busier than stations in the Bronx, but other times of day they're much, much busier. The UWS local stations remain busy after midnight. (The last two times I've ridden the line after midnight, the train filled up to rush-hour-style loading at 42.)
Why don't you ride the 2 north of 96th Street in the middle of rush hour? You will see exactly how crowded and how slow it really is. The 2 train really is the big loser in the post-9/11 service changes. They retained the whole curvy route AND took away the one good part about it: the fast West Side Express run. And they did NOT have to do that. They could have made the 3 local and kept it running to New Lots Avenue. They could have kept the 2 express and terminated it at 14th Street. The 1 could have been rerouted to Flatbush Avenue to replace the 2 in Brooklyn. But that's not gonna happen now and we Bronx riders (who make up a very large percentage of the 2 train's ridership) are just going to have to be forced onto the overloaded local tracks and be forced to deal with more delays and worse service until the 1 line is ready for service to resume to South Ferry.
As I've posted before, I've seen no good explanations for why this wasn't done. Scratch that -- I don't think I've even seen any bad explanations. I agree, the 3 should have been sent local, not the 2, unless there's some critical point we've all been missing.
When service to South Ferry is restored later this year, it's clear that the pre-9/11 arrangement won't do. Rush hours, as I've suggested before, the 1 (no 9; skip-stop failed) should run at 25-30 tph, with alternate trains terminating at 137. Middays, evenings, and weekends, the crowding is worst on the local between 42 and 96, so either the 2 or the 3 should run local between 42 and 96 and express south of 42. Late nights, the 2 should run local.
Dave, when was the last time you operated the 2 from 241 to Flatbush?
Oh that's right NEVER!! So please don't tell us that it's "only 8 minutes" That happens to equal 32 min. a day minimum of extra cab time.
When was the last time you waited for a train at a 1/2 local station?
It's "only 8 minutes" according to the TA's published schedules.
Cab time is something to be worked out between the TA and its crews given the needs of the paying passengers.
So it won't bother you if the T/O and C/R spend 2 plus hours on a train going oneway and then turn around and come right back, spending about 4 straight hours operating because that's our job and we don't get tired. That's right the stop arm will stop the train if a T/O should nod off. (Willy B????)
The wait for a 1/2 is not long at all I spend all day moving at the whopping speed of 20mph (if I'm lucky) because all the trains are back to back.
>>> The '2' is the big loser. It retains its original routing, but makes all local stops in Manhattan 24/7. This is great for people who use these local stops, as they have two services at all times. It's murder for people who have to take the '2' from Brooklyn, and especially the Bronx, to the West Side. <<<
You are correct, sir! Dealing with all the stops in the Bronx and Harlem and now, all the 7th Avenue Local stops is not a good experience and the TA could have made the much-shorter 3 line local in Manhattan and kept it running to New Lots Avenue in Brooklyn and kept the 2 express and terminated the 2 at 14th Street. The 1 could have replaced the 2 in Brooklyn.
sorry, had to correct it,
Peace,
ANDEE
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the K-Mart in Penn Station becomes one of the 500 or stores likely to be closed now that the company's in Chapter 11. It's never been more than moderately crowded whenever I've been there, and many of the shoppers have seemed to be like me, commuters picking up just an item or two before getting their trains. Moreover, the store's nonstandard layout, awkward setup for getting deliveries, and (presumably) high rent may convince company management and the bankruptcy trustee to jettison it.
Thats a shame if it closes. I bought a singing Santa there and it still works
Simon
Swindon UK
I heard on WINS this morning that Kmart is now saying it hopes to keep all its stores open.
Chapter 11 is reorganinzation this isn't Chapter 7 where they liquidate. I don't think under 11 any Judge would allow the best performing store in the chain to close (best store looking at stores open 12 months or more).
K-mart's been slammed around so much about their image that they will have to go though a major PR makeover, and actually do something about their stores' look and their ability to stock items customers want if they're to avoid a future Chapter 7.
Even though K-mart is all of one year older than Wal-Mart, the former was introduced quickly by the already-established S. Kress chain and was known all across the nation by the late 1960s, so it's image is of an old-time discount store with dirty stores and sale items that are often out of stock by they time you get there. Wal-Mart was a mom-and-pop operation for most of the 60s, and didn't begin its big expansion until the early 1980s and got into on-time stocking via computer inventories faster. So its image in peoples' minds is of newer stores with more products available (and lower prices due in large part to the fact that Arkansas-based Wal-Mart is non-union and pays generally lower wages than K-mart, which was born in Michigan and has always been a union store).
Seeing that possibly K-Mart might go under, it just brought back found memories of S.Klein's that use to be in Union Square. I remember as a boy, going down in the bargain basement and watching the 4,5 and 6 screech around the curves from the token booth connection that was there.
We lived in Brooklyn. Pre-Kings Plaza we went to Downtown Brooklyn for shopping, usually during the minor holidays (Columbus Day, Election Day, Veterans Day). We usually took the D to Jay St, go upstairs and over and take the A to Hoyt/Schermerhorn. On the way home, if it came first, we took the GG to Smith/9th. We'd shop at Mays and A & S. I hated shopping, but, between the subway ride and lunch at Horn & Hardart's, it made it a good day. Sometimes we'd walk to E 16 St to take the Brighton to Lawrence. I think the Hoyt St IRT station was in the basement of A & S. Never went through the turnstiles (the IRT was a big mystery to me then), but it was fun watching the Lex trains whizzing by on the express tracks.
After my mother was pick-pocketed in Mays, we got our first car and Brooklyn was "suburbanized", our store of choice became the "upscale" E.J. Korvette's. I guess we didn't realize we were contributing to the demise of Downtown. I hear it's sort of making a comeback like a lot of areas of NYC that went downhill through the 60's and 70's.
"S. Klein's On the Square"
And going across the street to Nedicks for a frank on a toasted bun, pickle relish, and an organge drink.
With the bun which was like toasted bread folded over?
Yep. It's gone. Just like Howard Johnson.
How about the S. Klein on the Square in West Hempstead? (which is now Shopper's Village) My mom used to take us there to shop in the 50's & 60's. There was still a railroad crossing on Hempstead Tnpk there near where IHOP is now, which was an straightline extension northbound from the West Hempstead Station. Although I never remember seeing any trains go by (there were no lights or gates) there, Bob Anderson sent me this picture from his site of a steam engine crossing there. S. Klein wasn't built yet.
I think (judging from the 1950's model cars) that photo was from a fan trip I was on in October, 1952. I can't believe it's almost half a century!
That looks like a Pontiac on the left side of that photo.
Yeah, I remember that place. Towards the end it was a regular shitbox.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>I remember as a boy, going down in the bargain basement and watching the 4,5 and 6 screech around the curves from the token booth connection that was there<<<
I don't recall being able to see the IRT from S. Kleins basement. Where, in the station, was it? As I recall S. Kleins was a hodge podge of 5 or 6 buildings joined together.
Peace,
ANDEE
That sounds more like Astor Place (one stop down from Union Square) and Wanamaker's department store (pre-1956). That entrance is now used by Kmart (the subject of another, albeit off-topic, thread).
David
Thanks...I was wondering where the K Mart store at Astor Place/ 770 Bway came from. CI Peter
Yes, it was cobbled together from at least two or three buildings. i remember once walking though the men's department and noticing that the level of the floor changed, to account for the change in the level of the floor (the second IIRC) between the 15th St. side of S. Klein and the building in the middle of the block.
"On the square" ... I wouldn't worry about K-Mart though, they'll be back with some actual management and a clue ... just bought 500 shares of it based on what I see coming in a couple of years ...
The glass elevators and the train department....CI Peter
And we can't do that any longer from the Zekendorf apartment complex now, can we???? Tony
Oh, and my family paid a WHOOPING $2.49 for the Young Rascals' first LP there. The plastic and sticker are still on the LP from 1966!!!
Tony
I remember quite a few NYC stores that are gone:
Gimbels,Loessers(Downtown Brooklyn), Mays, E J Korvette, Godwins and for food:
Nedicks, Automat.
Then I also remember when the Lo-V, High V, Standard were still running and the r17,21,22.etc. were the new kids replacing the "old junk" which I now love. I remember when there was no flourescent lighting anywhere in the system and how bright 42 on the BMT looked when they went up.
>> ...already-established S. Kress <<
I thought it was S & S Kresge...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
That's the way I remember it.
You're right. I discounted the 'g' in K-mart's parent company's name.
As an 'ex vendor' I can tell you that PennSta KMart had been running in the top of their list from 0 to 7 where 7 is dead meat (Hackettstwon, New Jersey, for example.) PennSta, 770 Bway and CoOp City are busy stores...if any close......... D O O M ! CI Peter
"PennSta KMart had been running in the top of their list from 0 to 7 where 7 is dead meat (Hackettstwon, New Jersey, for example.) PennSta, 770 Bway and CoOp City are busy stores..."
Well it might have more shoppers than say Dickinson North Dakota, but I'll bet you the Rent, Utilities, and Labor are cheaper out here. The bottom line might even be better, notwithstanding the fact that there is a Wal-Mark across the street. I'll bet you the Penn Station store can't say *that*!
Elias
OnTheMoney!! Hackettstown KMart WAS going to move...the store was an ex WTC Grants only recently updated in color scheme. With medium sized Walmart/Home Depot/Weis Markets down the road, it would be a 'closer.' Until doing vendor work, I didn't know KMart was in Manhattan. 770 Bway has a captive market in NYU students and tourists...the subway entrance isn't their source of business. WalMart Superstores are changing the face of the economy but 'shoplift city' will never see one...Bradlees on the square had a 1 1/2 Million Dollar loss overhead. I know because I did Grand Jury service....besides being a vendor there too. CI Peter
"WalMart Superstores are changing the face of the economy but 'shoplift city' will never see one..."
The K-Mart stores here have "self-service" checkouts.
You scan, de-protect, and bag your items yourself, put your money (or card) in the machine and it gives you your change and receipts.
Look Ma! No Lines! One checkout lady watches 6 checkout machines.
Try *THAT* in New York City!
Elais
Surprise!!!! Already in de Bronx at one of Caldors lost stores. You pay for what you want to pay for and bag your goods.....a built in bargain everytime 'No Hablas Engles.'
The K-Mart on Astor Place has a self-checkout line.
The K-Mart stores here have "self-service" checkouts.
You scan, de-protect, and bag your items yourself, put your money (or card) in the machine and it gives you your change and receipts.
Look Ma! No Lines! One checkout lady watches 6 checkout machines.
Try *THAT* in New York City!
As does the K-Mart in Fresh Meadows, unless we don't count Queens as part of NYC.
Incidentally, I love the self-checkout. Most people are kind of dumb and stay in the checkout lines, which is nice. Of course, an occasional person will be in the self checkout and just not figure out how it works, and then require help being checked out.
I used to hate my local K-Mart because of the lines- my time is more valuable than the 10-15 minutes required at that particular K-Mart to check out. With the new self-checkout, all I have to lament is the poor selection and lack of prices posted on any items (and the 1 scanner on the entire floor for upc scanning.)
WalMart Superstores are changing the face of the economy but 'shoplift city' will never see one...Bradlees on the square had a 1 1/2 Million Dollar loss overhead.
New Yorkers like taking advantage of a discount ... the five-finger discount!
Actually, Wally World is avoiding New York not so much because it's "shoplift city" as because it's "union city."
Wal*Mart is getting close, though. There's one that opened a couple of months ago in Linden, N.J., just 5 minutes from the Goethels Bridge in the former Caldor store on Routes 1 and 9, behind a K MART. And, in the last few months they opened on Route 22 in Union and Route 9 in Old Bridge, places they didn't consider years ago due to high construction costs.
And, in the last few months they opened on Route 22 in Union and Route 9 in Old Bridge, places they didn't consider years ago due to high construction costs.
I've not been to the one in Union, but the one in Old Bridge might as well have not bothered. It's significantly smaller than most other Wal*Mart stores, with a correspondingly poor selection of merchandise. There's a nice one in Piscataway at exit 5 on I-287 though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
New Yorkers like taking advantage of a discount ... the five-finger discount!
And in Springfield (the fattest city in America), they like taking advantage of the FOUR-finger discount.
There is a K-mart in Greenburgh where the Caldor's used to be. It is also easily accessable to public transportaion where several of the Bee-Line buses run.
#3 West End Jeff
But whats their rating? Some could be offended by posts about 'minorities' purchasing habits......the CoOp City KMart with maybe the poorest of the consumer market financially and racially which has limited access along with the Home Depot on the other side of Gun Hill Road is one of the busiest stores in the country! People do business when price and availability abound and will make grand efforts to get there. Jamesway, Bradlees and Caldor went under...Ames is struggling...KMart went overboard...Sears is up in the air and the world as we know it has changed. I saved a buck by microwaving my hot chocolate at Engine Brake Land. CI Peter
How is Sears doing BTW. I haven't heard anything about possible problems with Sears.
#3 West End Jeff
Sears is hutting a little, but not as much as J.C. Penney, which will be the next big retailer on the "death watch" list after the K-mart situation is settled either as Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 in court.
Right now K-Mart is filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy which means they're reorganizing.
#3 West End Jeff
I know -- I meant after they either work something out through Chapter 11 or can't work it out and go Chapter 7, then J.C. Penney, which was reported shaky financially last year, will be the next store that the business reporters will be focusing on.
I'm well aware that J.C. Penney is on shaky ground. I wouldn't be surprised that they end up going under.
#3 West End Jeff
JC Penney is doing much better than they were. They had a good hoilday season and a new CEO in the form of Allan Questrom, the retail wizard that saved Federated Department Stores 10 years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
You want to see the next mega-bankruptcy, keep your eyes on UAL, the parent of United Airlines. It has been hurt worse than any other major airline by the decline in travel after September 11th, having been more dependent than the others on the sort of full-fare business travelers who are most likely to have cancelled their travel plans.
To give you an idea of just how bad things are at United, the airline recently took delivery of four (very expensive) 777 jumbo jets from Boeing pursuant to a pre-existing, non-cancellable contract. United crews picked up the planes in Everett and flew them directly to an airstrip in the Mojave Desert, whereupon they were put in "mothballs."
IF that means that United Airlines disappears from the face of this earth, that will be a shock to the airline industry.
#3 West End Jeff
Sears is hutting a little, but not as much as J.C. Penney, which will be the next big retailer on the "death watch" list after the
K-mart situation is settled either as Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 in court.
J.C. Penney actually seems to be turning itself around quite nicely. It did remarkably well during the Christmas season, better than any other department store chain. Its stores finally have become well-positioned, with the right sort of merchandise mix for its target market. Of course, it certainly helps matters that the company also owns the highly successful Eckerd drug store chain.
Maybe J.C. Penney will lift themselves out of bankruptcy. If K-Mart can get themselves straightened out they hopefully will make it.
#3 West End Jeff
J.C. Penney is not in Chapter 11 at this time and if i recall was never in a Chapter
Thank You
I guess that I was mistaken.
#3 West End Jeff
From what I've read recently, that stores grosses a lot of money on a per sq foot basis. I'd be surprised if it closes.
You might not be there at the right time of day. It gets awful crowded in there sometimes.
Is there an LIRR station in Melville, LI? I need to go to a conference there tomorrow at 2 p.m. and I don't feel like driving out there.
If there is no station, can anyone tell me what the nearest station is?
Thanks.
Nearest station would be Huntington. It has frequent serivce, but traveling from there to Melville would require a ride either in a cab or on Suffolk Transit's #1 (or "S-1") route. Suffolk Transit is terrible.
:-) Andrew
So you're saying I should drive?
Yeah. I should say so. Suffolk County is not transit-friendly, unless you're going within walking distance of the LIRR.
:-) Andrew
Odd that Melville doesn't have its own station. There is a lot of commerce there, including many insurance companies and law firms on Broad Hollow Road.
Doesn't have its own station because there's no rail line. Closest would be ex-Republic Station on the Main Line, but that's been closed for years.
See my other post for bus/train service to Melville.
How about the Farmingdale and Pinelawn stations on the Ronkonkoma Line?
- Lyle Goldman
If you can drive, you should. Melville is just one of those locations that's a pain to get to by train/bus.
BUT it's not as bad as some. If you insist on trying the train, there are connections with the Babylon Line (Melville is more or less equidistant, timewise, between Amityville and Huntington Station, but Amityville has planned connections).
See timetable for bus/rail.
Don't know if its good or not. Tell us about it if you try it.
P.S. This might work for you if your destination is on or very near Route 110/Broadhollow Road.
I made a similar trip every day for a week last October. I took the LIRR to Farmingdale and then the N95 bus to Broadhollow Road in Melville. It was fairly painless.
There's also an N70 bus from Farmingdale (or Hempstead) to Melville.
Here is another situation that should have be corrected by the planners in that area when they saw the farms giving way to offices buildings in that area. Someone should have thought of maybe putting in a light rail sytem running along Route 110 from end to end, having its own ROW along side the highway there. But alas, no brave soul cam foward.
I need some help.
I am running IE5 and have a problem with subtalk. My password and handle details are not being saved and inserted in new postings and all postings are being shown as new. Cookies are enabled in the settings of IE5 but there are no subtalk cookies in the temporary internet file.
All help much appreciated.
Simon
Swindon UK
Check to see if you have cookies blocked - that IS an option in Aiyee ... if you're using external "cookie manager" software, it's possible that THAT might be blocking them.
As an alternative, you might try moving Subtalk to your "trusted sites" zone ... that usually works.
Select TOOLS- INTERNET OPTIONS- ADVANCED
and Check the box to accept (and store)
cookies or user-typed passwords...
Thanks to Selkirk TMO and (1)South Ferry (9) for your helpful suggestions. With a little help from our web site host I have now fixed the problem, but due to a case of severe embarrassment I am unable to divulge the cause.
Simon
Swindon UK
Feh ... no need to grovel here ... we'll make a Pinata out of Bill Gates and sell tickets. :)
I'll buy one!!!!!!!!!
Stuart, RLin86Man
ILL buy a hundred!!
Awww, and to think I thought a nice helping of tea and crumpets was being served at some Underground party :) (Exit, stage right)
--Mark
We save the crumpets for the Americans. I can't stand them :)
Simon
Swindon UK
First I would like to introduce myself. If you are familiar with nycrail.com then you might want to skip to the second paragraph. Anyway my real name is Alshawn Rushing and I am 15. Most of you should know me since I've been posting under MrX2001 sinct July.
I was riding the subway today and I noticed how beautiful Roosevelt Island is. Then I was on the 6 and I saw how ugly 28 street is. Long into short I would like it if you guys and gals gave me a list of what you think the most worst, the most ugliest stations in the New York City trainsit system is. But it can't be under renovation and it obviously has to be a revenue station.
Thank you in advance
110th Street on the West Side IRT (7th Avenue [1 train])
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm having trouble thinking right now (horrible head cold), but I'd like to nominate a walkway:
the one between 7th and 8th Avenue at 42nd Street.
I'll try to look for the worst station I can find tomorrow on the way to school. Does Cortlandt St. (N/R) count, even though it wasn't due to bad maintenance?
The award must go to Chambers on the JMZ. That place could look so good if restored to former glory.
Simon
Swindon UK
"The award must go to Chambers on the JMZ. That place could look so good if restored to former glory."
THAT'S the one!
You got my vote for Chambers St., too.
That's what I was gonna say as well. With all the stuff oozing down the walls and the sheer sight of the place, that's gotta be it.
The award must go to Chambers on the JMZ. That place could look so good if restored to former glory.
At this point, I'm not sure if the station even could be restored.
They would have to tear down the ceiling and plug the source of the persistent leak which lies above it. Not even Little Cat "Z" and his hatful of "Voom" could clean THAT place up!
wayne
Hey, Did everyone forget Atlantic Ave on the Brighton Line? Look closely and you can even see a running brook between the tracks!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Yep ... that's the same river that flows through the IRT station there as well.
East Branch and West Branch of the Flatbush River?
River? Atlantic IRT is hollow! Stand on the platform of your choice and you'll see people standing around underneath the other platforms.
There are three rows of seats on the NB local platform. The extra seating often comes in handy, and the TA can now rent out the platform as a lecture hall.
Heh. I'd rather a Venetia gondola ride ... hmmm.
No, the gondola ride was at Canal. Really!
At one point about 20 years ago, the unused "express" platform on the downtown side of Canal Street on the J/M/Z (soon to be the Willie B-bound track) was covered with several inches of water (brownish) -- enough to make the track bed disappear. Too bad the MTA doesn't have a picture of that to post up somewhere in the Canal Street complex...
It explains a lot about its current condition then. Mommy! :)
Can't really knock Atlantic Ave on the Brighton too much though; I once saw a miniature gondola with one rat steering and serenading two other rats heading south to Coney Island! (Venice?)
We've got: Hot Lunch!
LOL
We need to hire Lee Iacoca to spear a fundraising campaign to restore Chambers St. It'll take a renovation of Ellis Island proportions to restore that station to its former glory.
The water problem there is exacerbated by the fact that some of the leakage is coming from plumbing and waste lines that lie underneath the Municipal Building. It'll take a plumber the category of Josephine Figliolia herself to figure out THAT one!
wayne
Build the Second Ave. line and run it via Nassau Street, and I guarentee you the Chambers Street problem would magically disappear, because the station would then be used by people who work around City Hall and live on the Upper East Side, which has far more political clout than your averge J/M/Z rider. It's not fair, but that's why the neighboring IRT Brooklyn Bridge station has been redone twice since the last time anything was ever done to Chambers (well, they had to put up that ugly 50s/60s-tiled wall on the west side of the station when Bklyn Bridge got extended north, but other than that...)
I have yet to see a picture of what the station looked like in it's glory days. If anyone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.
Simon
Swindon UK
That station's glory days ended in 1931, with the completion of the line from Broad Street to the Montague tunnel.
However, the book "Gotham Turnstiles" (ISBN 9629037-8-7) has a partial view shot on page 70 from 1964- the station isn't in great shape, but in obviously better condition than at present.
This was the last day to put in your input for the most delapidated stations awards. And let me say with out a doubt Chambers street(J,M,Z) already won first place. I will post the winners tomorrow. Thank you all for adding in your opinion.
Did you see the caption beneath that photo? Anyone not familiar with Chambers St. would be led to believe it has three tracks instead of four. Something about "That's why the center track serves both platforms".
Oh, great - an underground sewer on top of everything else. Eeeewwwwww!!
Well, it all makes sense now, having that station beneath the Municipal Waste Building :)
--Mark
I agree but I would also give Dis-honorable mention to the Bowery station
Nah. Bowery isn't nearly as bad as Chambers St. Besides, one side has been restored - the side which will remain in service. Even the unrestored side isn't that bad.
It's bad enough, with nasty leaks withal, but there are WORSE, but not as bad as Chambers. 21st-Van Alst and Broadway on the "G" line are both very bad. And 205th Street in the Bronx is slowly deteriorating. Brook Avenue on the #6 is pretty bad too.
wayne
What's with you guys anyway. Doesn't anyone mention the Sea Beach stations after 59th Street. Peeling paint, leaking roofs, garbage strewn all over the damn place. Those stations are need of an overhaul, and I haven't even mentioned the graffiti that utterly pollutes the Avenue U Station. It's enough to make this Sea Beach fanatic sick. And the TA sits on its ass and does nothing about it.
He's right............I nominate ALL of the Sea Beach BMT stations East/South of 59th Street/4 Avenue (and even that can use a tile cleaning or two)
Stuart, RLine86Man
I don't think the Bowery has been touched by the rehabbers. You're probably thinking of Canal.
Bowery hasn't been touched by the MTA's "gawd-like" rehabbers, just like Chambers
Perhaps it should be called "The Chambers Street BMT Award" and be given to the station in the second-worst conditon?
(With apologies to my friend who suggested that the NL Cy Young award be renamed the Greg Maddux Award and go to the second-best NL pitcher.)
Without a doubt, the most deteriorated station I can think of is Chambers Street, on the J/M/Z.
It needs major work. That said, there is sort of a charm to its semi-ruined state, almost a sense of archealogy down there, this huge station largely unused and rotting away. My childhood was in the 1970s, so my formative subway years were when many stations looked like Chambers and most smelled like piss.
Not that I'd want those days back- today, I'm delighted when I hear out of towners talk about how much they LIKED their first subway ride, andf the renovations at some stations (ex: 50th/Bway and 66th/Bway) are really cool.
That said, when Chambers is finally fixed up, I'll still reminisc (spelling?) about its present condition.
Sorry it has to be via bad matenance
This doesn't fit your criterion since it's gone now, but Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle was in a state of advanced ruin before it was demolished.
Park Place was even worse.
I have to say Chambers street(J,M,Z).
Also 168 street(1)
and Utica Avenue 4
168th Street on the 1 would be a BEAUTIFUL station if it was ever restored........I love the high arches (similiar to Roosevelt Island, which started this whole thread in the first place! *lol*)
Stuart, RLine86Man
53rd St.-Lexington Avenue. Visually, this station is possibly the ugliest piece of real estate I can imagine. It's dark. It's filthy. The walls were until recently painted brown, a paint that was peeling off in huge sheets. The ceiling is leaking all over the place and brown crusty crap coats all concrete surfaces. Generally not a pleasant place to be. If it weren't for the tight tunnels in that area leading to a strong breeze every 3-5 minutes, clearing out the air frequently and rapidly, I'm pretty sure it would smell like pee, too.
Dan
The Chambers St Station on the J/M/Z is kinda nasty. I transfer there for the J/Z from the IRT most of the time. But at least the ceiling has been painted. What about Jackson Heights Station on the E/F/G/R/V where you change for the 7? It is sooooooooooooo nasty. I feel dirty just waiting for a train there. lol
Atlantic on the 4 line is pretty natty too ...
I second that...but isn't that under renovation...for the last few years? It amazes me what a mess that platform is on the weekends and then by Monday morning it is all cleaned up.
Worse is the waterfalls eating at the third rail and of course that long gap ... I was QUITE impressed by how severely everything's eroded there trackside and amazed how a train hasn't fallen into the hole there yet. If that's renovation though, somebody's getting zoomed ...
true but there renovating it so you cant blame it
I'd say Queens Plaza is worse than Roosevelt Ave, by a hair. Neither one can hold a candle to Lexington/53rd.
:-) Andrew
Yep, Queens Plaza is pretty crummy, the tile is in much worse shape than at Roosevelt; some of it is falling down and has burn marks and such on it, and the tile color there is the UGHLIEST shade of Funeral Black Grape that I has EVER seen. On the positive side, they have submitted proposal forms for artwork to be installed there as part of an upcoming renovation. They are going to open the ceilings over the platforms - to the mezzanine - in three spots near the stairways at the south end of the station.
wayne
Actually, I don't so much mind the purple tile. I just wish it were kept in better shape. I kind of think the IND style looks best with darker colors. (Then again, I suppose it looks even better with the lights out.) I do think it looks better on local stops such as Steinway Street.
:-) Andrew
The Purple family local stops above Queens Plaza follow the Queens IND pattern of being lighter than the express stations that they follow. You can really see this with the blue and yellow groups. The express stop has the darkest shade. Then the local stops get lighter a little at a time (in the case of 46th-to-Northern, it actually changes shade from violet to mauve) until the color changes at the next express stop.
Queens Plaza: black grape
36th Street: grape
Steinway Street: grape
46th Street: violet (a little lighter shade of grape)
N Blvd: mauve
65th Street: lavender
wayne
And I think the dark blue at Roosevelt is far more attractive than that lavender blue at the local stops from Elmhurst Ave through 67th Ave.
:-) Andrew
Yes, it does look pretty sharp, especially with the black border. The colors lighten up along the way, going from cerulean blue (Elmhurst) to sky blue (Woodhaven) to deco blue (67th Avenue).
ONE of my complaints about the Queens IND is that in some stations they paint the I-beams to match the tile (71st Avenue, Parsons, 179th, Steinway, 23rd-Ely, etc.) and in others they DON'T. Queens Plaza, with purple tile and gold I-Beams is one, 169th Street (scarlet red tile and light green I-beams!!!) is another, so is Union, Elmhurst, Van Wyck, among others.
wayne
My favorite was the blue/grey at Broadway-Lafayette. The orange at 169th St is 2nd on my list.
re. Broadway-Lafayette - you are talking about the original tile, not the current, correct? That two-tone Cerulean blue/Powder blue had to be one of the prettiest in the system.
I like the warm Sienna Brown and Butterscotch Yellow at Nostrand Avenue IND. The Aquamarine/Cerulean Blue at Court Street/transit museum is very nice too.
Then, of course, there was the hideous Prune/Plum that adorned the walls of Chambers Street-H&M for so many years, only to be replaced in 1998 by an equally ugly shade of Concord Grape.
wayne
Yes, I was referring to the original B'way Lafayette tiles.
My nomination for the ugliest IND tiles is the yellow/brown scheme used at 7th Ave, 15th St/Prospect Pk & Ft. Hamilton Pkway on the Culver line. Reminds me of #1 and #2, if you know what I mean.
before they have started puttin in the elevators, at atlantic ave. o the brghton, that station s the worst, half the tiles are gone and it is rather ugly
Don't worry, the brown paint job on the ceiling at Chambers Street is once again beginning to peel off in huge pieces especially over the southbound platform AND in that one place on the northbound side right before where the ceiling gets lower; it looks to be leaking like a sieve again.
wayne
Whats it gonna take to get this station fixed!!!?????
They have to address the water problem first.
wayne
Canal St had an even worse water problem, yet that was dealt with nicely.
Canal St had an even worse water problem, yet that was dealt with nicely.
Isn't one part of the Capital Plan a program to fix leaks in stations, one by one? I know 23rd Street on the Lex line had all its sidewalks torn up and replaced, and it no longer drips onto the platforms when it rains.
(23rd Street was one of the earliest station rehabs, a real butchery from 1986 ... only redeeming value is that it was the prototype for the ornamental ironwork fences that were later adopted throughout the system. It's marginally more tolerable now that the leaks are gone -- they did nothing to fix leaks as part of the 1986 rehab.)
The Second Avenue Subway perhaps.
Tunnel Rat
Oh, a renovation of Ellis Island proportions.
An act of Congress, or an act of the "BIG" man (if ya know what I mean!!)
Dave Barry's definition of "Act of congress?" Two or more flushes required?
Maybe...or mebbe it's like that old lawyer joke: "How many lawyers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" "Two: One to put it in, and one to OBJECT to the MOTION :-D"
Stuart, RLine86Man
though no longer eligible, what is now the Q/W Canal Street station was a hands down winner up until the last year or so.
A far as stations currently in service, I would like to nominate 21st-Van Alst and or Nassau Ave on the G line. Water damage...fire damage...areas closed via only the most crude means possible. They are real winners.
At least J/M/Z Chambers has the charm of having once been a nice station...
Ah yes, you noticed the spring of mineral water that's bubbling through the tiles on the southbound trackside wall at 21st-Van Alst!
A fine piece of natural art, it is.
wayne
A water fountain! Neat. I often get thirsty while riding the subway all day; now I know where to go for relief.
Broadway on the Gee train.....extensive water damage on the 9th Street bound platform near the rear portal and removed stairways that were retiled using brighter colored tiles for the tile band......it can also use a major facelift, but, alas, won't ever because it's on the line to..ummm...was it someone on here that called it "the line to.......NOWHERE!" *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
P.S.: No offense to any G riders.....I used to take it all the time from/to Metro/Grand Avenues for the L
you mean BRODAWAY
Yep....I've got that picture on my hard drive......... *lol*
Similiar to the Mabison Square Garden at 8th Avenue/34th Street :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
I've been to the station and it looks like ground zero 100 years later. Even though it's going under renovations I will accept that because I have yet to see a MTA employee other than a T/O an a conductor.
Newkirk Ave on the Brighton Line, Coney bound platform: bird poop...a lot of bird poop. It's really disgusting. The walls, platform, steel beams...everything is covered. Waiting there to change from what used to be the orange-Q to what used to be the D made me feel dirty.
Smith-9th on the F and G. While your there, break a chunk of concrete off the structure as a souvenir....or throw it into the gowanus 85 feet below.
Ugliest, and/or in most need of repair...
Broadway (G)
21st/Van Alst (G)
...most water damage
Hoyt Street (2)
...now that's an UGLY remodel.
www.forgotten-ny.com
1) Chambers Street BMT (J,M)
2) Bowery BMT (J,M)
3) Broadway IND (G)
wayne
I was in the Chambers St. station (J,M) on April Fools' Day when I did the railfanning trip with #4 Sea Beach Fred. The station wasn't in particularly good shape.
#3 West End Jeff
That's no April Fool joke, either.
That station is a mess to say the least.
#3 West End Jeff
As Bob Keeshan once said on Captain Kangaroo, it's a messy mess.
Canal Street on the JMZ...the current Willy B-bound side. I remember the year I was in NYC (1996) the west (Broad St bound) side actually had an open garbage dump...reeked like s*it. But I think that's changed, right?
-John!
In the outside of NYC category, I would nominate the perennial favorite of Berks station on the Market-Frankford line here in Philly, but wouldn't you know it, they're renovating that monument to urban decay! I guess Millbourne in now the Philadelphia front runner.
Mark
Millbourne was a monument to non-maintenance dating back to PRT days. I've seen and ridden MFSE trains that didn't even stop, either inbound or outbound. Not a soul was waiting and nobody got off either.
I have photos in my collection showing Millbourne with the 1906 Brills, the 1922 Frankford Brills, the Almond Joys and even the M4's and it looks almmost the same in all of them. The only thing that's changed is the platform lighting.
If 25 people get on or off at Millbourne I'd be surprised. I've heard the only reason it's there is that PRT was required to put a station in the township to get the ROW.
Millbourne is the least-traveled station on the line. Hardly anyone even lives in Millbourne....its tiny. Others in the area can make the quick jaunt to 69th or 63rd. i rode the el not too long ago out to frankford and i was quite surprised on the nice job they did on some of those stations. Berks was a mess, and as long as i can remember, it has been. but at least they are repairing it now. before, there were more holes in the canopy over the platform than actual roofing material. and the paint was chipping and disgusting. but look at the surrounding neighbrohood and it all sorta comes together. i think they really need to do something with Frankford terminal. its in dire need of a renovation....especially since its such a big transportation hub.
Back to the western section..are they planning on doing a rebuild of the el structure on market street, like they did on the frankford end? it sure looks like it could use it, especially since that stretch is about 20 years older than the frankford one. a little trackwork needs to be done on the eastbound track on the hill just east of 63rd. last time i was on (a month ago) i noticed some pretty big shimmying and the rail looked real banged up.
I can answer two onf your questions...The entire el structure is being rebuilt on Market Street in West Philly. There's a big mural of what they want it to look like on a bulding just west of the 46th Street station.
Also, a new Frankford Terminal is being built as we speak. I've been watching construction over the past year or so, and a lot is done. A whole new el structure is being built for the last few hundred feet of the line, and a lot of the new concrete structure is done.
Mark
I agree that the worst is Chambers Street on the J.
I think it's a conspiracy to let this station rot until it caves in.
Chambers St, BMT. No contest!
Chambers St, BMT. No contest!
Especially because it was once so grand (sigh). It really pains me to see what a disaster it's become.
I'd have liked to see it in it's heyday (1920's), lit with incandescent bulbs, nice shiny tiles & marble ...
Tomorrow will be the last day for putting in your entries for the most delapidated station in the system. Weirdly I only got 2 entries for any IRT station. You can also e-mail me what you think at
Ghostface4life2002@yahoo.com
And one of those stations, Utica Avenue on the 1/4 is under going renoations as I type this post.
Ill put in a vote for an IRT station since its along the line I work on. 191St.
I second that vote......also Borough Hall ( (1)/(2) line, naught the (4)/<5> line part)
Stuart, RLine86Man
I don't think Roosevelt Island is anything special. It's a different design from most other stations, and I'm glad you find it appealing (I find it quite gruesome, myself). I don't think it's in great condition for a station its age, however.
In any case, Chambers (J/M/Z), complete with antique punch boxes, clearly takes the cake; 191 (1) is a close second. (It's a shame; both of these stations were clearly once grand showpieces.) While Lex/53 is ugly and isn't in great shape, it is in much, much better condition than either of these stations.
Anybody for a "First anual most delapidated speling award"? I have a nomination.
Before I announce the results I have something to say. Last night I read a post about how Paul changed his handle. Paul still has the same handle as he did before I came. Me and Paul are 2 different people with 10 years and 3 days difference. Paul is a nice guy and I am suprised he didn't respond to that. I am not going to be mad, offended and I am not going to sware at people(which I admit I am famous for)because it is a petty thing.
To no ones suprise Chambers street got alot of votes. Suprisingly only 1 IRT station got entered in the final listings. And 2 people voted for an entire line so I had to make different categories.
For the most delapidated branch of a subway line that award goes to:
Sea Beach line on the N.
For the most delapidated IRT station that goes to:
191 street on the 1.
And For the top honorsof the most delapidated station in the entire New York City Subway system the winner is:
Chambers street on the J,M and Z lines, former Nassau loop line and the Future Second Avenue line.
Thank you alll for putting in your votes which really mattered. For the whole listings e-mail me at Sikko2020@aol.com or Ghostface4life2002@yahoo.com
Thank you
in atlanta i noticed the ashby station ...
Inspired by Bill Newkirk's comments about his 1936 Hagstrom Map.
We've talked about what time we might like to go back to (with a good camera and lots of film of course) if we had a time machine.
Suppose you could go back to a particular decade and actually live that decade. You could be a motorman, conductor, engineer, guard or brakeman for any transportation company in New York metro. You would start your decade with one of these jobs but then face all the risks as well as all the pleasures. You'd have to live within your income and all that goes with it. You'd need someplace to live, deal with your bosses, co-workers, friends and lovers.
The idea is that you'd have to put your life where your railfan fantasies are. Which years and which company? I guess it's fair that the years have to be consecutive but don't have to be a standard decade--i.e., 1926-1935 are as good as 1941-1950.
Me? I think I'd take my chances on the BRT rapid transit division as a motorman for 1911-1920. I'd get to see the system at its elevated and surface running height, watch the Standards being delivered, the Dual Contracts being built. Coney Island in transition. In my free time, look at the Manhattan els, many ferry routes, Penn Station opening and (as they say) much much more. Negatives? I might get drafted for World War I or die of the Flu in 1918.
So what'll it be?
REVISE: Inspired by Bill Newkirk's comments about his 1936 Hagstrom Map.
DELETE: Inspired by Bill Newkirk's
PREPEND: Inspired by Kevin Walsh's
For a trainfan trip in the wayback machine, it'd have to be 1931 in time to take the civil service test and sign up for opening day on the IND. From a practical non-railfan standpoint, I'd want to go back WAY further to Sprague's lab and the early Manhattan elevated electrical experiments or Sprague's OTIS elevator experiments. Anyone who got in on the ground floor of THAT opportunity and didn't sell short would probably still own the BMT today. :)
it'd have to be 1931 in time to take the civil service test and sign up for opening day on the IND.
I wonder how many people took that test and how many were eventually appointed. It was the Depression, after all.
Truly was "open COMPETITIVE" from accounts I read. City jobs were about all there was and aldermen did you no good at all. The result was that the IND on opening day WASN'T lily white and truly reflected pretty proportionally across ALL of New York's ethnicity at the time. I'm also told it was a HARD test that tested for common sense rather than book learning ... they ain't like that anymore. :)
Hello:
Just to clarify the earlier inquiries about the 6 line, here's the situation:
R-142As 7211-7560 are in passenger service. 7546-7550 & 7556-7560 debuted on January 16, 2002. That makes a total of 350 R-142As in service so far. Maximum equipment required is 380...Hmmm!
There are still 150 R-62As assigned to line 6. 20 of these are used on the 5 line daily.
The last passengers were carried on a WH R-29 "Redbird" #6 train the morning of December 26, 2001. The fleet was then at 44 and was gradually transferred to Concourse for storage with the remainder on "stand-by." The last 14 cars were finally retired on January 16, but can still be used if absolutely necessary until they are removed from Westchester Yard. They were still there as of January 20.
In any case, the total fleet assignment to the 6 line at this time is 500 cars even.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Actually, I rode #7556-7560/7561-7565 in service on the (6) line.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
I have no doubt about that. Everything up to 7570 should be on the road soon.
And how recently did this occur, if I may ask?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
R-142s 6761-65 were just delivered this evening and are on the property.
R-142As 7581-90 are now road testing.
-Stef
There are still 150 R-62As assigned to line 6. 20 of these are used on the 5 line daily.
Doesn't that mean there are 20 Redbirds still on the 6 since the two lines exchange cars?
Sir:
No, it means that 20 R-62As assigned to the 6 line are "farmed out" to the 5 each day. The chief intention is equipment for overnight OPTO shuttle from E 180 to Dyre Ave.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I'm going over to 239th/180 and i don't want to see any more #5s in Redbird and my Russian is very poor thankyouverrrymuch. CI Peter
Well I agree with you. I work on the No.5 Line and I can't wait to get to operate the R142 on the No.5 Line. The only thing I don't like is the announcements.
'Can' the announcements IF you can and speak into the microphone (there is a lower mike for the 'vertically impaired' if you are short in stature.) CI Peter
Is the C/R permitted to turn off the automated announcements and make them the old-fashioned way? I was on a 2 a few days ago that didn't have automated station announcements, but the strip map wasn't working either, so this was probably due to a malfunction.
The only problem is that I assume there's no way to turn off the awful ping, aside from never turning off the PA at all.
The Conductor is supposed to override the automated announcements when something needs to be said that the automated system isn't equipped to say -- for example, the Q/Q and W transfers at Union Square. I was on a #6 train last night on which the Conductor did just that -- she allowed the system to announce the Union Square stop, then overrode the system to give the proper transfers.
David
I was on a 6 yesterday and the conductor let it announce "Tranfers available to the B, D, F, and Q Trains" heading southbound. I thought they were to be updated for the 63 Street changes.
But is the C/R permitted to override the announcements elsewhere as well, or must the announcements be allowed to play where they're correct?
Most C/R's, IME, don't bother to override the announcements. Some cut off the incorrect announcements but don't replace them with correct ones.
The Conductor MUST let the full announcements play if they are currect. When I came out of school car I was making my own announcements on the R142 just because I wanted to talk. A TSS told me to stop making my own announcements and let the female voice do it.
C/R's are not allowed to cut the announcements unless ordered to make an manual announcement by Supervision. Like on the No.6 the C/R has to make their own announcment at 59,51,14, and Bleeker Street. Also if given a skip C/R must override the announcements.
When the C/R overrides the announcements they have to go by the rule which means cut the announcement as you enter but make a full announcment with door fully open other wise the C/R is violating bulletin 166-01
Right!!! On the 2 it is Atlantic Ave, Park Pl, 14St, 42St.
14St during the week. Weekends it is normal unless you add the 3 "express".
Rush hours, the 9 is incorrectly announced at express stops. The 3 should be substituted for the 1. The 1 should be substituted for the 3 at Franklin. The midday M also needs to be announced at Fulton. And then there's the minor detail of a local train declaring itself an express at each and every stop in Manhattan. These are all errors, no?
More like 'twos complement' in Boolean Algebra. CI Peter
Is it possible to see some of these on the (1) and (3) in the forseeable future, since the R62s will go towards the IRT Flushing Line?
You won't see any of the first 400 R142A's (7211-7610) on the 1 or 3 trains at all. All 400 of them (the original order) are going to be assigned to the 6 train. But most likely, you'll see more Pelham R62A's on the 1 and 3, because it's going to be R62A's currently assigned to the 1 and 3 that are going to the 7 train. And you may see R142A's from the option order on the 3, but that won't be for a while.
By the way how close are we to 7606-7610 being delivered? I saw 7581-7590 at 180th Street Yard not a while ago and read they were being tested. I would think that they're going to be preparing R62A's to go to the 7 real soon.
7591-95 were being assembled this week at 239th St.
7611-15, the first of the option order 142As, are in Yonkers.
-Stef
Thanks Stef for the update. I take it then that within the next several weeks, the 6 train fleet is going to be all R142A's, and we're going to begin saying goodbye to the old World's Fair cars on the 7 train. Good to hear that the R142A option order is getting under way.
It sure seems that way. But as you may know, nothing is etched in stone (as it has been mentioned many times here).
400 R-142As sure looks good for one line.
Where the cars from the option order will go is anyone's guess....
-Stef
True. We never know with the TA what's going to run where. But since they're up to 7590 (I think) on the 6 train right now, I think the 6 will almost certainly become an all-R142A line. And from seeing quite a few R62A's in the 16, 17 and 1800s now sporting red yard stickers, I would guess that the remaining Pelham R62A's will soon join them on the West Side.
Let's see what happens . . .
Not So Fast!!!!MainLine R 33s will be going to the 7 line shortly. I probably the Westinghouse(9076-9305 group) going to the 7. there is already 1 train of 8900s series at corona now. (GE) group. As for R 62As on the 7 line Its not happening. The 7 line will be the LAST LINE to have REDBIRDS.
I thought the R-62s were going to the 7. If the R-62s are going to the West side, than I assume that the 2 line will be getting them. But, red stickers are for the number 1 line's yard, right? That doesn't make sense. What will the 5 have? It's almost all Redbird.
I'm confused, and my head hurts from all this thinking and html work. I'm going to bed. :)
'night.
It would be R-62As, not R-62s -- there aren't enough R-62s for #7 service. And the decision STILL HAS NOT BEEN MADE as to what will succeed the Redbirds on the #7.
David
Know for sure that #5s are to go R142 firsthand Tovarich unless some cataclysmic occurence takes place. CI Peter
#1 r62a,#2 r142,#3 r142,#4 r142A,#5 r142,#6 r142A,#7 r62
the #4 will get the r142A option order to make up for the redbirds
the #3 will get the r142 option order
first order 1080 cars
2nd order 470 cars
OMG ...i cannot wait until this summer to see them again shoot them doing express runs
AGAIN !!
LOL LOL
Currently, sorry I do not have car numbers, Corona has 3 trains of R33 main line cars. Of course, the traditonal, WF single car is still in its proper place. These cars are not to be mixed with WF R36 cars. The barn chief is not too thrilled about this. More old cars! Certain replacement parts are not in stock at Corona! For example, these main line cars use low voltage lighting. If replacement parts are needed, Corona barn does not have them! They will have to send a truck to the Bronx to get them!....In the back of the yard, imposter 9306 (actually R21 #7261) has recently been moved to 38th St. Yard. Rumor has it will be eventually transfered to 207th. This car could be reefed..... There are a few WF cars (single and married) o/s for body rot (I'll try to get numbers). These could be ultimately reefed as well. R62A 2155 is still resting in Corona barn. It is there for car equipment dept. training. Even though there is nothing official in writing concerning R62A's being or not being transfered to Corona for #7 service, throughout the barn there are blueprints, diagrams and actual replacement parts in the stockroom to maintain these cars at Corona. If they are coming, when, and how the 11 cars will be set up in a consist is a question TA suits probably cannot answer right now.
So the mainline redbirds are grouped in 11 car consists, and not mixed with WF cars? For the last few months, I've noticed some mixed consists, but have not checked lately. I'll miss the redbirds.
I wonder how 7 riders will react when they have to sit every other seat when the 62's and their bucket seats come to Queens. More people will stand for sure. And if the 7 ends up with 10 car consists, added to the loss of seating capacity, well that should make the rush hour even more interesting.
Redbirds come in married pairs so I cannot understand how there could be 11 cars. Is the 11th a trolley? CI Peter
The 'odd' car belongs to the R33S(ingle) class - car #s 9307 - 9345. If you ride on the 7 line, they are the third car from the Main St end of the train - easily identifiable by their fans and lack of AC.
That must be the easiest Carbody assignment!!! CI Peter
Good news for Corona: all your ills will be cured in two weeks when Doctor Lee arrives. We will miss him. CI Peter
R62A 2155 is still one of the singles?
Well if they got the R62A blueprints, the diagrams and actual R62A replacement parts in the stockroom and 2155 is still at Corona being used for car equipment dept. training, then they've got to be going there. Why else would the parts and the blueprints and 2155 be at Corona? But why are there Main Line R33s at Corona now? I remember last seeing Main Line R33s on the 7 in 1995.
There are 2 sets of ML R 36s and 1 set of Ml R 33s currently at Corona Yard. the car #s are 8918 8919 8977 8976 8934 8935 8971 8970 9338 8955 8954. Unfortunatly this train is having problems due to 2 different air brake lines NYAB for the 8900s and WABCO for the R 33 singles. Thats why this train is Not In Service. the only ML R 33s the 7 line can use with out problems is the 9076-9305 group.various 91/9200 series cars were assigned to the 7 line from 1991-1995. The ML R 33s from the 2 (whats left 9150s and up) as well as all the 92/9300s from the 4 would perfect canidates as for the 7 line the 1 R 62A being here I have no idea why its here. and yes 2155 is the last R 62A single car.
I'd be in favor of making the Flushing Line an all R-33 fleet(replacing the R-36s), and making the 7 Line the last stand for the Redbirds.... Who's in favor of going to 10 Car Trains there?
-Stef
Great idea! Though I'm sure the majority of the commuters who take the 7 would prefer the 11 car trains over 10 car. Face it, many people who take the 7, as goes for every other line, don't really go for nostalgia as a reason to keep old cars. I'd think they prefer the comfort of the R62A's. Though this is just my opinion.
my man !! i agree with you !! keep them there till next year!!
I'm a little late, but how can there be one single? Shouldn't there be 4 cars somewhere missing 2155?
2155 is still a single unit.
-Stef
Aren't all the R62As assigned to the 3 (1901-2200?) singles?
Cars 1901-2155 are single units. That is correct.
-Stef
NO!!! Cars 1881-1900 are linked into 5 cars sets and are now property of the 3 (Livonia) line.
The mainline R33s you saw at Corona are now back at East 180th St Yard. Around 5:45 this evening, I was waiting for a 2 train at East 180th and I saw ten R33s parked on one of the yard tracks, all signed up for the 7 train, except in front, where the train was signed up as a 5 train. So that train definitely won't be running on the 7. The ML R33 train must have been at Corona for parts or for some other reason.
I heard that 16 R62As were transferred to Corona. I would assume that since they rejected the R33s, Jay Street decided to retire redbirds at Corona once and for all. Also, WH R36s are to be retired effective immediately after the R62s are accepted, regardless of what replaces them.
It looks like my better start taking my own field trip to visit the No.7 Line and take those Pictures.
That even sounds Like a good Subtalk field trip for someone to set up.
So I guess that means there will be no Redbirds on the 7 by October. Oh well, such is life.:-(
The ML R33 train must have been at Corona for parts or for some other reason.
No, it was in passenger service, for a couple of days.
Nothing's written in stone. But why would the TA replace the R36 Redbirds on the 7 with slightly older R33's that were on the 2, 4 and 5 trains? And why was the TA (before 9/11) moving R62A's that numbered in the 16, 17 and 1800s from Pelham Yard to Van Cortlandt Yard. And if I'm not mistaken all 400 R142A's from the original order are going to the 6 train. I would think that means the remaining 150 R62A's currently assigned to the 6 will be moved elsewhere as well. The 6 doesn't need 550 cars, unless the TA has some big extension planned for the 6 line that it has managed to successfully keep under wraps.
wait a minute the r142a is for the 4 train buddy.the r142 option order is for the 3
I say they "may" go there, not that they "will" go there. The TA hasn't decided which lines are getting which option cars yet. We don't know for sure, unless you know someone at the TA who does car assignments who said the option order R142s are going to the 3 and that option R142As are going to the 4. Even then, you can't be sure.
As things stand right now, it doesn't look good for Bombadier to get any option orders. They've brought in the 'big hitters' from Canada to bring things up to standard. CI Peter
After almost breaking my back building streets over tracks on both ends of the station that I built and painted recently for my O-Gauge model train layout, I want to build station houses at both ends of the station but the only photo of a station house on the Sea Beach route is the one at 20th Avenue on this web site. I thought that station houses were built to fit the area so they are not exactly the same at all the stations on the Sea Beach route from 8th Avenue to Avenue U. Both platforms on the 8th Avenue station and one platform on Fort Hamilton Parkway station are made of steel with concrete floors. All other platforms are made of concrete. The station that I built is based on a concrete station. Are there any more photos of station houses? Jeffrey.
Jeff: You have a model of the Sea Beach route? Amazing if that is so. After 8th Ave and Fort Hamilton Parkway, you then into the mini-tunnels that captivated me towards the Sea Beach as a kid. For some reason those aformentioned stations don't have them and I always wondered why. Have a blast with your model.
I think that all of the stations on the Sea Beach route have station houses but I don't remember. I made just a part of the Sea Beach route on one side of my O-Gauge model train layout. Jeffrey.
I'm trying to figure out if BVE will run on Windows 2000 and/or Windows XP. Has anyone gotten it to work on Win2k/XP? Most websites say it works on Windows 95/98/ME, but there is no mention of WinNT/2000/XP. That could be because it doesn't work on them, but I'm hoping it's just that they never tried...
I tried it on Win2k and it would freeze up the computer perminantly every time. On the same system in Windows 98 it works flawlessly.
Yeah, the problem there is Win2k ... wasn't designed for games, it's solely a virus breeding chamber. XPee came from the same hoseware but it has Media Player "integrated" to jam it twice as fast. (and folks wonder why I have time for subtalk since we run Win95 here that never needs fixing) ...
Whoa, slow down there! I mean, I hate "Windows," "Bill Gates," and "Microsoft" just as much as the next guy, but Win2k/XP is a million times better than Win9x!!!!!! Due to how it was designed, when one program in WinNT/2000/XP crashes, it doesn't take out the whole system. This solves like 60% of the problems with Win9x. The other 40% is solved by how 2k/XP keeps memory leaks from occuring. You probably knew all this already, but I have to give MS credit where it is due. FDisking my Win98 laptop and installing Win2000 on it 2 years ago was one of the best things I've ever done in my entire life :) As far as viruses go, just don't open up shady attachments and you'll do fine. XP and Media Player: just don't use Media Player. Finally, you said "Yeah, the problem there is Win2k ... wasn't designed for games." Windows 2000 will run any game that was written to work in Win2000 and is labeled as so. If BVE was written solely for Win95/98/9x, then it *should not* work in Win2k.
Win2000 is OUT of the question - no gaming timing capabilities. Mackoy *did* release a special 2.01.003 or some such specifically for XPee that can be downloaded from his site.
The NEW build is worth it alone for the NIFTY new signals and some other enhancements - no more green or red dots on a blackboard, they actually LOOK like real signals now so the download is worthwhile for everybody. You can just throw it in on top of your existing copy.
That all said, XPee is a MONGREL ... a piece of Microsquat ... best bet for BVE would be Win98 or MiniME but even MiniME ... sux ... but that's true for ALL games. Only reason Microsoft released XPee when they did was to beat the justice department before they could stop it and to ensure that Media Player got added to the kernel of the OS so as to screw up competitors. There is NO benefit to XPee and a LOT of downsides to it ... but if you've already blown your bankwad, the latest copy of BVE will run on XPee and every other Winders platform.
SO WRONG!!! I'm running windows 2000 pro, try getting an 8 day uptime, no crashes or reboots! BVE works fine!!!
Exception to the rule ... and you're right ... 8 days of uptime on Win2k does approach "legendary" ... heh. Sorry, couldn't resist. My REAL servers run Linux. Generally though, the NT class machines have serious timing problems and run "games" mighty pokey, if at all. Mazeltov!
Yeah, Win2000 Pro is amazing. I have it on a laptop that, when it had Win98, needed to be rebooted at least 2 times a day because Win98 would crash or run out of memory. Then I formatted the hard drive and installed Win2k Pro (I got it a little cheaper through academic pricing). My laptop was totally transformed. In the 2 years since then, I received about 6 blue screens. That's it. And at one point last year I had it up for 30 days, no crashes or reboots. My parents recently had their Win2k Pro computer up for 45 days. Anyhow, I'm glad to hear BVE works for you! SelkirkTMO said it should work in XP with that new version so I'm going to try it.
Like I said earlier, XP is to Win95/98/ME like the Bullet train is to an Amtrak Amfleet consist. You can't even compare them. XP is so much better in everything I do with a computer. What is it you do with a computer that works better with Win95 than XP?
Compiling software, doing email, handling digital nasties, and the occasional gaming. No "browser integration," no security holes in WINDOWS 95 ... I have to agree with you that Win98 was a retroactive abortion, and "second coming" was even worse ... but the first, original, Win95 that did NOT contain any Aiyee in it runs like a champ. Only downside is that it needs to be rebooted every 42 days when the 32 bit clock runs out of time ...
Compile time for one product on Win95 - 38 seconds. On Win98, 4 minutes and 15 seconds ... WinME, 2 minutes, 9 seconds, WinXPee ... if it compiles at all, usually takes about 4 minutes or so before a reboot or an EXE file ... 38 seconds is faster. What can I say?
B"H
can you say...*nix? whee.
We say Linux all the time here - sometimes BSD ... but we have little choice but to compile on Winders just to see which way the compiled code crashes. Fortunately NTSB doesn't need to visit, they have a form for Windows crashes pre-filled. :)
Oops, forgot to thank you for telling me that it works with that special release.
I play everynight on my win2k machine and have no probs.. feel free to email me with any questions :)
now i wanna make my own recordings for the announcements
i would do either this one:
GET ON THE DAMN TRAIN YOU MAGGOTS.. NEXT STOP GRAND DAMN CENTRAL WHERE YOU PEONS CAN TRANSFER FOR THE 4, 5, 6, 7 and the 2-car shuttle.
or this one (more realistic)
next stop sdhfsdkfjsdjsdj change there for the sifjsdljkfsdjklfjk trains
Ha ha! Luckily BVE installed and runs fine on my WinXP computer. The game is great!
I can't get Bve to work on my computer. I was looking foward to operate the No.7 train.
Email me ... we MAKE it work. You're probably just missing some stuff. And as to XPee, if you like the way it works on XPee, you'll FLIP when you see it running on a more capable Winders version. :)
He don't lie, If he says he make work it good, good he make it work
Wowsers ... YOU stepped out of the BVE cab long enough to post here? Heh. Musta broke something. :)
Replied to your email ... now one thing, buddy ... it's ALMOST school car ... don't get the two confused. If you've got one of those cheap joysticks sitting around the house, hook it up, go into the menu and kick BVE into joystic mode and use the joystick. You'll find it's PRECISELY like running a 142 or a 143 and YES, there IS a 142, 142A and 143 train available for BVE so you can start studying for the urine test. :)
The Franklin shuttle stops at Grand Central?
(The 42nd Street shuttle is three or four cars long, depending on the track. It's a train off the 3 broken into three pieces.)
It works fine under 2k with the instructions linked to previously on this board.
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
thanks!
Head to...
mackoy.cool.ne.jp
Feel your way to the download section and download the program. You're in luck becuase the newest version released a few days has an english installer and help file. After you install, head to your favorite site to download your favorite routes and install them and you're ready to go.
Some sites with good content include...
rmmarrero.topcities.com
and...
www.crotrains.com
and I made a few trains and a route that I've yet to complete for BVE at my site...
r68a_5200.tripod.com
And for those waiting for the R68A, it'll be here soon. :-)
And for those waiting for the R68A, it'll be here soon. :-)
YAYYYY! Can't wait to dump a train duder! :)
Yeah, how lucky was it that just when I decided to get BVE he came out with an English version.
You saved yourself alot of trouble.
For all of you BVE users who have been waiting to drive an E train, I have good news.
The E line for BVE is coming out TOMORROW!!!
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/
Isn't there already an "E" line? I have it, but I did have to correct the bugs such as bad timepoints, local stops,etc.
Well hopefully your version will be better, can't wait to try it out!
This will be a southbound route, and, IMHO, it's better.
Will it be .rw, .csv or .brf?
.BRF?
BARF file?
RW.
Cool beans! LOVED the G line, can't wait to see what you've done! Screen shots are MOST enticing ...
The E Line: Jamaica Center to World Trade Center. Now available.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/
hey i tried the E line its saying im missing some files i downloaded all the packs and its still complaining of missing files. Can anyone help me?
well i keep trying to download this game ever since the flushing line came out. Unfortunately when i start it up it asks DIRECT 3D? and then it says unable to use Direct 3D. neither the 7 nor the new E works. i have windows 98 and i have DirectX8.0 i dunno what to do to make it work. any ideas?
yes, had the same problem, go to Start>Run> type 'DXDIAG' go to sound tab and put acceleration tab all the way down
I am having the same problem with missing object files. Have tried installing the objects in several different folders. Still no luck. Can anyone assist.
download the NYCT Object Pack 1 from the site, it fixes allthe rpoblems
Wowsers! You've become an EXPOIT! Thankya, bro! :)
Well, finally had some time to play and those SLAB*.B3D files and GRAND3.B3D didn't turn up in the NYCT.EXE file ... is there another file somewhere else over yonder that I missed that wasn't part of the three files for the E download? Must be getting blind and stupid in my old age. :)
I am having the same problem. Can anyone help. Program can't locate SLAB*.B3D & GRAND3.B3D files. I have downloaded and installed all three folders including NYCT.EXE.
The files have been fixed - drop back by Mr. Marrero's site and you'll find the fixed file available. Works like a champ!
I'm also having that problem. I've downloaded all the folders and it still won't work!!
He's got a fix for it on the site now ... those files WERE absent and have now been found. :)
Go to http://www.crotrainz.com/forum/DCForumID4/691.html#4 and scroll down until you see a person named CWDT which is me. It shall tell you what you nee to now
Still missing Grand3.b3d
I am still missing that too but that file to me isn't a big deal becaus you are not getting an error every 10 seconds.
It gets stuck on Automation error when I get near Grand ave.
There's some files missing, that's the cause of the "error 5" ... hopefully Mr. Marrero will spot the reply I left and will redo the package with the missing files ... someone else here posted a "fix" by copying some other files to the names of the missing, but I'm sure Mr Marrero would also rather we all had the proper files that I'm sure look better than the substitutes ... hang in there - I'm sure this will be fixed as soon as it gets noticed ... looks like a DAMN nice route for the small amount of it I looked at so far ...
Did it. I'm still missing some files. Then I get an "Error 5" message.
Alan Glick
I did that immediately after I downloaded. And I fixed those "bitmap not found" messages. But I think it messes up the G Line.
To keep the G line you need to COPY THE FILES NOT CUT THEM!!!!!or else you will lose your G Line. If you cut the file by accident reinstall the G line.
Neato! Swifto! Kewl! There goes the night! :)
Tried to find an email address to send this separately, but couldn't find it. The "object" folder is lacking the following B3D's:
SLAB.B3D
SLAB3RL.B3D
SLAB3RR.B3D
SLABDARK.B3D
SLABDARK3RL.B3D
SLABDARK3RR.B3D
GRAND3.B3D
Looks like a nice job ... will wait and see if there's another build of the object files before I start cobbling it ...
Go to my site to download a patch containing the files Slab*.b3d and Grand3.b3d
Did you get the email I sent you last week? I haven't received a reply from you yet. I included a photo of Philly's Market-Frankford Line that I took with my digital camera. If you didn't get it, I'll try to send it again. Please let me know.
Anyone know when the M7's are going to be delievered and put into revenue service. I would like to see these cars for myself. Anyone have any idea when?
They might receive a set by March for initial testing.
Put into service? That's anybodys guess.
>>>>They might receive a set by March for initial testing. <<
The operative word being MIGHT
Peace,
ANDEE
"They might receive a set by March for initial testing."
Since the LIRR has no test track, the mainline will have to be used for testing. Will this be done overnight like the MBTA does (or did do) for the Type 8s? -Nick
in the next few weeks, M7s will be going to the AAR colorado test track. the same place the DE30 firebirds were tested. Anyways this should happen in a few weeks. wwww.railroad.net has told me so
Today we take a look into the Engineer’s Log, Traindate: 2002.01.19
As I sit here beginning to write this, my turn sits first out and waiting to be called "as soon as they get power." Another favorite excuse. We have been rested since 1815 hours. I have been told they have been waiting for power all day. I’ll bet the customers love this excuse as much as those of us at home awaiting the call.
But we’re not going to dwell upon this day. Instead, we are stepping back in time by just a single day to Saturday, January 19th. It will be another magical mystery day on the high iron.
Conductor Craig Holmberg and I were out having lunch with my buddy Jon Roma in Champaign when my phone began playing Beethoven. It was trusty Desk One Caller Donny Elb inviting us to come and play railroad for another day. This time it would be on train C70971-16, a coal train coming from Louisiana enroute to Burns Harbor, IN. Not sure if it is for Northern Indiana Public Service (NIPSCO) or Bethlehem Steel, but it will move just the same. We were told to be there at 1715 hours.
After a stop at the trusty Meijer so Craig could load up on goodies, the cab dropped us at the Champaign Yard office about 1700. As we walked into the Yardmaster’s office, we were informed that plan A was already dead and that plan B was being hatched. Plan B was similar to plan A, only with different locomotives. I already don’t like the sound of this.
It seems that while we were getting the coal train, there would be a twist. As an exciting bonus, we would also get train M32961-19 included with our train at no extra cost. For those of you keeping score, this means two trains for the price of one. Great if you operate those little pint sized things like some nickel and dime short line, but we are great big class one and we (well "They" actually) like to run them big, long and heavy.
The logic behind this madness it no warm bodies. We are rather short of human beings again. The new retirement bill has taken effect and we have lost several Conductors already with several more coming in the next few weeks. They have hired nobody to replace the retirees. I guess they subscribe to the theory that "Nobody does it better." The less we hire, the better off we’ll be. Personally I feel we should hire anybody because "Anybody can." Of course we should hire somebody. For years people have told me to take a quarter and call "Somebody who cares."
Being that as it may (and it probably isn’t), there was no crew to run 329 north this day, so we get to double up on trains. This fact just wasn’t mentioned to us when we were ordered up for duty. I guess they didn’t want to discourage us too soon and dash our hopes of a good trip.
We are told the power on train inbound, the IC 6056 and 6052 would come off and we would instead get the KCS 6630, KCS 6635, IC 1035, IC 6122 and IC 9625. Wow, lots of power, just the like other railroads! Yardmaster Merle Metz informed me we had to swap out power as the KCS 6635 had some sort of problems with the head of train telemetry device preventing him from using it as a lead unit going south. This is all I was told about the power. As I would soon find out, there was much more than this. I just love a surprise. We’ll touch upon this in a minute.
Then, the next exciting tidbit of information was conveyed. We would have to take our power up to the north end along with some 42 cars, go over and get the power off our inbound train on the siding and bring it back over into the yard. Then we would get back on our outbound power and cars and double them all to the inbound train on the siding. Again, sounds simple right?
Let us analyze some of the facts first. The yard crew was doubling up the outbound 325 train and pulling it down the outbound lead towards the north end of the yard. Somebody would have to drive up there to pick up the Engineer and bring him back to the yard office. We would be going through the yard and neither of us would be in each other’s way for our respective moves.
Now, logic would dictate a different approach to this plan. If I were in charge, I would have had the Brakeman on the yard switcher ride up there with the Engineer, walk over to the inbound 709 train, get the power off and bring it back down to the office. This way, one of the Car Inspectors could check the supplies and add any items needed. Right off the bat, this would save us some time too. But it was not to be.
I go out and load up my gear on our outbound power and begin to inspect them. I immediately discover the information given to me is well, inadequate. I learn that the KCS 6635 has a far more significant problem than some telemetry troubles. I learn the #2 and #4 traction motors are cut out owing to high voltage grounds. This means the unit is only good for about half its normal 3000 horsepower. Oh well, we still have lots of power.
I proceed to the 1035 and discover more bad news; it has major electrical problems and is down for the count. It will merely be along for the ride and not producing any revenue horsepower. Drat! With these two units in distress, it also means I will not have dynamic braking available for use, as the other two IC units are not equipped with this handy, dandy little item. I called Merle and inform him that I have lots of power trouble and he informs me that "They" already know. I remark that it would have been nice if somebody bothered to let me know. Again with the mushroom philosophy so deeply enshrined in the rail industry methods: "Keep us in the dark and feed us a bunch of, a bunch of, well, we’ll call it manure."
As I my inspection continues I learn I have some other problems. It seems the 6122 and 9625 have pneumatic control switches stuck open and the sanders are all blowing on them as well as the 1035. Apparently, whoever assembled this consist did a less than adequate job of testing and inspecting them. So after several futile attempts to get this all resolved I finally got it all taken care of. I decided it would be in our best interest to perform a locomotive brake test on them. We did so and the system George Westinghouse invented so many years ago worked as designed. Now we are ready to begin to play.
As we pull to the north end of the yard, Craig informs me of what we will take to Chicago this day. It is 139 loads, 12 empties, 19,219 tons and about 9000 feet of train. While it sounds big and heavy, this is not the heaviest train I have operated. Last year I had one that weighed in at 20,228 tons. It was 156 loads and 10 empties. Although in that case I had four working BNSF Dash 9-44C locomotives to pull it with. In any case, this is going to be a long night. In fact Merle even told us "They" expected us to be out here 12 hours tonight.
We get to the north end, walk across to the inbound power and notify the yard we are ready to make our moves. We are told we will wait for inbound 322 to arrive before setting over these engines. He rolls by with about 150 cars. We get the signal and make our move. I get back onto our outbound power and ask to make the move. We are told to wait again, as "They" want to get 325 out first. The inbound 322 crew has to be driven up here to get the train, so we wait some more. When they arrive, the Engineer will have to look his units over before taking off. More time.
And as it would happen as I type this, the radio station I’m listening to is playing Pink Floyd’s "Time".
While waiting, Merle asks 322’s Engineer about the problems he is experiencing with his lead unit. He tells of what seems to be something far more serious than clogged fuel filters. This power will come off the train and different power will be added. Seems to be the theme for the day. Now here is where some logic really would have made sense. The inbound 322 crew should have cut off the power and bring it back into the yard. Instead, the crew is picked up and driven from the very south end of the yard to the very north end of the yard to get their outbound train. I am guessing the clerk had the paperwork ready along with their TGBO’s (Tabular General Bulletin Orders) and they were brought along instead of stopping at the yard office on the way north. But then, there I go thinking again.
Notice how I carefully avoided the use of the word assume. After all, we all know what happens when we assume.
In the meantime, the voice of the lovely Jennifer working at what used to be Chicago South and what is starting to be called the "Desk Two Dispatcher" graces the ether and wants to know why we aren’t moving. I inform her that we were told to stay in the clear and wait on 325 to depart. She comments on how nobody informed her of this decision. I made a mention of the mushroom philosophy and she uttered a few comments of her own.
325 finally departs and then it our turn to make a move. Jennifer informs us we must shove to clear up the control point at Leverett Junction so she can bring train 194 south. We have to have a Car Inspector come out and rearm the end of train telemetry, do a dump test and then a set and release of the brakes before we can go anyway, so this is no big deal.
While we are undertaking the above mentioned tasks the yard switcher comes up the outbound with train 398 for the Car Inspectors to work. Inbound 194 will turn back on this train. The switcher crew gets off 398’s train and onto the power we set over and takes it back to the other end. Go figure.
We do our required brake tests, 194 is routed through the yard as 322 is still on the main with the outbound crew now swapping power and we depart at 2110 hours, some three hours and fifty minutes after we go on duty.
We roll along at a decent clip maintaining about 40 mph for much of it only seeing the 50-mph maximum for this train once. And that is coming down Loda Hill from Paxton towards Del Ray. Anybody who claims that Illinois is flat has never operated a train in this state.
To digress for a moment; I had to take care of the wild bunch who needed to go outside one last time. Then I called the Caller to see what happened to my order to work. 2000 to 2100 hours both came and went without a call. Donny now informs me that I will get train 397 instead at 0100. Apparently, the GTW crew had some technical difficulties in keeping their train in one piece and got a drawbar. This involves a major delay. The regular IC crew for this train usually turns back at Champaign on train 337. Being that 397 is so late, they decide to deadhead this crew to Champaign to get the 337 train and bring it back north. This keeps 337 on time I guess.
I made a quick call to the regular Engineer on 397 and he tells me they have deadheaded them down on 59 tonight. They are already at Champaign and will be heading north in a little while. We’ll meet somewhere out here tonight.
And now back to our regularly scheduled program.
As we come around Buckley we observe block signal 90.2 indicates approach diverging (yellow over green) informing us that we will be taking track number two from Del Ray to Gilman. We have to stop at Gilman and pick up. Gilman pick-ups are normally more of a major accomplishment rather than a simple task. We have to go out onto the TP&W Railroad to make the pick up from their siding. This requires getting a TPW track warrant using either their radio channel or having the Conductor going to the phone to calling him from the Gilman depot.
The TPW radio system is kind of a pain as it is really a radio based telephone system. You code in a two-digit number followed by the star sign. You get a dial tone and code in the extension of the Dispatcher followed by the star sign. It will dial and start ringing, just like your phone at home. Eventually they answer. Sometimes the New England Central Dispatcher (a sister road of Rail America owned TPW) will answer and have to transfer you. Both Dispatchers are in the same facility in St Alban’s VT. The Algoma Central also has (or had when I was up there in 89) a radio based telephone system like this.
We arrived at Gilman at 2220, cut off the train south of US Rt. 24 and headed on into town to do our work. We have to cut back here so as not to have the world tied up. We also have to cut back to hold the pick up and all our engines to clear Rt. 24 when we tie back onto the train. This gives the Conductor a nice long ride back to the train. Always a pleasant task especially when it is cold, raining, snowing or windy.
While we are getting our pick up and performing the air test on it, 398 comes rolling through town. The original plan Jennifer had conjured up was having Amtrak 59 (City of New Orleans) pull into track two at Gilman, letting 398 go north, backing Amtrak out and then heading him south on track one. Now had they had the foresight to leave track two in all the way to say, North Gilman, this would not have been necessary. 59 was already running late and now it was getting close to turnover time where the Dispatchers change shifts. This plan was eventually scrapped as 59 wound up being held at Ashkum instead and 398 rolled on through.
We completed our work and then waited for 59 to go south before we could shove back onto our train. He clears and we pull out and get the permission by the stop signal to shove south and back onto our train. Our pick up was two loaded five packs of double stack containers. A meet with 397 and his 102 cars (a baby train by CNIC standards) and then we finally depart at 0025.
We are a straight shot to Peotone where the third trick Desk Two Dispatcher Shirley informs us we will be meeting two trains. We now have some 9470 feet of train and Peotone siding is just over 10,600 feet. 192 waits on the main track for us as we enter the siding at the south end. It is now 0130 as we head in. Shirley calls and informs us that Markham cannot handle us and we may be there awhile. I ask about cutting the crossing strategically placed right in the middle and she tells me she will check. If we are here any extended time period, we are supposed to cut it, but past experience has taught me to never take the initiative to do what we are required to do without permission. Yes, I have been yelled at for doing what I am required without requesting permission from the Dispatcher first. Another one of those Catch 22’s this industry is famous for.
Shirley comes back a few minutes later and says she cannot find out for sure, so go ahead and cut the crossing. Craig dropped off and I continue to pull into the siding. When 192 calls us in the clear, I stop and make a full service application of the train brakes in advance of the cut. Did I mention my distance counter on the telemetry was not working? Dropping Craig off at the cut saved him a walk in one direction anyway. We just make the cut when the Markham General Yardmaster calls and asks if we have cut the road yet. I tell him we have just begun to do so when he tells us to hold up. A moment later Shirley comes back on and tells us to put the train back together as Markham will now take us. This all occurring of course, after we made the separation.
Southbound NS train 27V passes as we couple back up and begin to pump this air back up in this beast and Craig gets to make the mile long walk back up to the engines. We finally depart at 0230. This little snafu probably added thirty minutes delay.
We arrived at Markham at 0310. A very brief pause at the signal at Homewood to let NS train 317 go south, and then it was our turn. We pulled into Thoroughfare 3 track, a running track on the outer west side of the yard. The original plan called for us to set out all the freight onto Thoroughfare 4 track and then take the coal up to the Indiana Harbor Belt at Highlawn in Riverdale, some four or so miles north of where we would make the set out of the freight.
But alas, no all was proceeding according the rules of Hoyle. I observed a cut of cars in Thoroughfare 4 and not enough room for the cars were would set out to fit. On to plan B, we would now set these cars out in F Yard instead. We get this little mission accomplished with no fanfare or problems and then tie back onto the coal. At 0430 we depart and head to Highlawn to set out the coal.
The coal is set out and secured and we head back to Markham, now dangerously short on sand in the hours of service glass. Owing to congestion in the yard on the route we needed to use to get to Woodcrest to tie up the power, we are told to secure the power at Harvey at the very north end of Markham Yard. A cab comes to retrieve is and take us back to the south end at Homewood to tie up.
We get blocked as a job is working there. We are unable to get into the yard office to perform our tie up ritual, so we wait patiently. Finally the way clears, we get in and tie up and head for home. This little saga ended some thirteen hours after it began. But our mission was a success; nothing wrecked, nobody injured, all of the work completed and the best part of all, nobody got fired. Another good one.
I have heard from quite a few folks that were unintentionally deleted from the direct mailing list with the great computer meltdown. I am still missing some thirty plus names from the original list. If you are getting this forwarded to you instead of receiving it directly, that is why. Drop me a note to reinstate you to the list.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c2002.
What became of these cars? For the life of me, I can't understand how they could be numbered using what is designated for the Bombardier option order. If anyone knows, I'd like to hear about it.
BTW, I'm restless, so don't mind me if I rant and rave for awhile:)
-Stef
Story in Wednesdays NY Post.
Peace,
ANDEE
*shudders* Good thing I don't have to take the SeVeN anymore....
Stuart, RLine86Man
Oh that thing? The urinal is constantly running there. I always wandered where all that water was going.... I guess the article answers this question.
-Stef
How long has it been like that? It amazes me that the TA can say they were not aware of it with a straight face. Let's see how long it takes them to fix it. BTW, speaking of the 7 line, did they ever figure out that oil problem in the Steinway tubes?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, It still smell like oil last time I went though it.
Robert
The smell does not seem as bad though.
I'm sure it's been like that for quite sometime. The room doesn't exactly look pleasant outside of this one urinal that is constantly going, going, going. With an open pipe, this crap goes through an opening in the floor. That should hopefully disappear as renovations in the station continue.
-Stef
I don't know anything about the oil problem which is news to me.
Probably another sewage problem that needs to be taken care of.
-Stef
So that's why it always smelled like Urine in the TS 7 line station. That station in my opinion is a pretty delapidated station in the system as well and needs a facelift.
Perhaps a hosing down would help. With a WATER hose thank you. :)
*lol* What else were you considering? Oh, c'mon...tell me :-D HCl??? Really, tell me :-D
Well, that should take dare of the TA urinating in the subway, now we need a plan to stop the homeless from doing it! I've noticed a lot more piles of sh#% at the ends of the stations lately. Really makes my morning wait for the F very pleasant.
How could they do this to my beloved 7?!?!?!?!?! With all the pee all over the place, its no wonder the redbirds are corroding.
I guess this begs the obligatory question of whether or not it feeds onto the third rail, and if so, what are the effects) (Selkirk hides as barrage of vegetables [I HOPE they're vegetables] hit the bumper block) ...
Point your browsers to: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/23/nyregion/23TERM.html
Seems like a good plan. By putting the passageway a level below the Winter Garden, you avoid all obstacles except one. On this level, you are below West St, above the PATH, below the N/R, and below the 4/5. By using Dey St instead of Fulton, you avoid problems with the A tracks getting in the way.
The only snags I see:
1. This passageway is 2 levels below Church St, the same level as the 1/9 tracks. Will they lower (or raise, if possible) those tracks between now and November? Seems unlikely. Looks like the passageway will have to go under or over, but then resume its previous level as it goes over the PATH and under the N/R.
2. It doesn't go east far enough to cross under the J/M/Z at Nassau St. If you want to go from the 4/5 to Water St (as lots of people do), you either have to get out onto the narrow sidewalks or you have to drop down to the A platform to cross underneath the 2-level J/M/Z. This proposed passageway is low enough that they could just continue it east under the J/M/Z and the 2/3 and let people out at Pearl St. I guess they ran out of possible sources of money.
West Street will be changed, and probably, the street level facade and entrances on West to the WFC complex. Whatever pedestrian facilities are installed, the Dey Street pedestrian way is likely to change levels via escalators. As I think about it, it should probably be two levels under Dey, offering 'express' moving walkway rides with the upper level permitting 'local' stops.
The NY Times graphic suggests they are thinking of undercutting the East Side IRT for pedestrian space, essentially a lower mezzanine.
I hope they condemn some adjacent basements to allow for easier faster platform access -- elevators, escalators.
It would be nice if they could get to Nassau and William Streets, but John St. is more of an alley than anything else.
And most certainly, all of it has to be air conditioned in summer. The ventilation demands will be pretty intense in any event, and pumping cooled air from the WTC is not an unreasonable request (remember that cool air sinks down). Can you imagine what this would be like in August without AC?
By law, elevators or ADA-compliant ramps (1:12 grade) will have to be included.
Nobody said it was going to be easy.
Isn't Canal Street a prime example of a station where you have to use one set of train platforms merely as a walkway to get from one train to another?
By law, elevators or ADA-compliant ramps (1:12 grade) will have to be included.
I'm not sure about that. Does this qualify as a rehab or as new construction? ADA compliance for rehabs is only required at so-called key stations. (That's not to say that it would be a bad idea.)
Isn't Canal Street a prime example of a station where you have to use one set of train platforms merely as a walkway to get from one train to another?
Yes, but I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. The Q/W platforms at Canal connect the N/R, 6, and J/M/Z platforms.
Other examples that come to mind:
Chambers/WTC/Park Place: 1/2 to E via A/C
14: 1/2/3 to F via L
Court/Borough Hall: M/N/R to 4/5 via 1/2
Fulton: 4/5 and NB J/M/Z to 1/2 and SB J/M/Z via A/C
"I'm not sure about that. Does this qualify as a rehab or as new construction? ADA compliance for rehabs is only required at
so-called key stations. (That's not to say that it would be a bad idea.)"
You may be confusing two requirements with each other.
The MTA has identified key stations which they will make ADA-compliant to show progress in bringing the system into compliance.
It is my understanding that it is the degree of rehabbing a station determines whether or not ADA upgrades are required. The new subway complex being planned is definitely new construction - there is little debate about that, considering how extensive it is - and so ADA upgrades would be mandatory there, by law.
If someone can quote differently, however, please do so.
The more I think about it the more frustrating it seems that the 1/9 tracks prevent having a passageway that could remain roughly at one level all the way from below the Winter Garden to below the 4/5 tracks on Broadway.
Given that the whole former Greenwich St corridor in the WTC site has to be excavated and reconstructed to insure that no walls, etc., were weakened by flying steel beams, it probably wouldn't even be that expensive to sink the tracks by 12 feet.
But that might force the new Hudson Terminal to be at a lower level than would otherwise be needed (since PATH tracks would have to pass under the 1/9).
You could also do 1:12 grades to avoid escalators (which are real bottlenecks no matter how wide they are): as you head east, you could drop under the 1/9, then climb back up 12 feet over 144 feet in time to cross over the PATH tracks. But 1:12, even if permitted, isn't comfortable.
I hope someone is thinking through which plan minimizes commuting time for the greatest number of people over the long run.
I hope someone is thinking through which plan minimizes commuting time for the greatest number of people over the long run.
Well, it *sounds* like the PA is working closely with the TA. They'll have to, if the PATH station is truly relocated to the old Hudson Terminal site ... integrating that with the 1/9 will be a study in 3-D engineering. Let us keep all of our fingers crossed.
The thing that interests me is the brief mention, "The plan also envisions the MTA making a more direct connection between the N and R lines and C and E line platforms. Before Sept 11, passengers wanting to transfer between the two lines had to exit the subway system, walk through part of the mall complex beneath the trade center, and re-enter at another station."
Sadly, this doesn't sound like a combined E and N/R station with interconnection between the two lines. Damnit! Anyone have any MTA inside sources?
Any actual rail interconnection, as opposed to easier platform conections, has always been only a Subtalk fantasy.
The plan apears to me to be nothing more than smoke and mirrors. For $40 billion we are getting nothing more than moving walkways and esculators + elevators which cost a huge amount of money to maintain and run.
The money would be better spent on coming up with a plan that may cost a it more now but be more effective. I wish some of the good ideas on this board can be included in such a plan.
For $40 billion we are getting nothing more than moving walkways
Where do you get $40 billion?
The article said $2-3 billion. And I think that includes the money to rebuild the PATH line and possibly also to rebuild the IRT Cortlandt St station.
It isn't smoke and mirrors, but it also isn't all it could be.
I encourage you to write to the Port Authority and formulate some suggestions. Post answers you get here.
But first, leave out the $40 billion cost figure. It's wrong, and it's so out of scale that it will detract from the valid points you could be making.
leave out the $40 billion cost figure. It's wrong, and it's so out of scale that it will detract from the valid points you could be making.
That was NOT *my* figure!
Regardless. It's wrong.
> Sadly, this doesn't sound like a combined E and N/R station with interconnection between the two lines.
But is there a free transfer between the E and N/R stations in this plan?
- Lyle Goldman
I see noone saw the article in today's News or Post (can't seem to find it right now) about the latest plans for 7 WTC. People were annoyed it would "use more of Greenwich St.", but now they are talking about building in an archway to allow the street to go through. They also said it might continue right through the entire 16 acre WTC area, depending on the rebuilding plans.
Found it here: http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-23/News_and_Views/Media_and_Business/a-139053.asp?last6days=1
(Note since it has "last6 days=1", the URL will probably change from day to day)
Around this time, the NYC subway peaked with its ridership, somewhere over 2 billion a year. Besides the automobile, do you think a reason for the ridership peak was because of the competing companies charging an extra fare for transfers between the divisons? Right after unification, did ridership figures drop?
I would think ridership would've peaked during WW2, where nobody with a car could get enough gas to run it and almost everyone worked (male & female).
How can BART manage to have five routes running on a two track line? Every other subway systems' practical limit is three, with most doing two. What kind of headways are scheduled for each individual route? Also, you would think that trains would be coming one after another every minute, however when i was there last time, I was waiting at Civic Center during morning rush hour, and I waited over 10 minutes for a train to arrive. It must suck waiting for a train at an outer station on the Oakland side.
BART does it by not running trains. And yes, even though BART blows, it beats the pants off of MUNI.
I liked MUNI better than BART. BART seems bland to me. Maybe MUNI has crappy service, but I liked the other things about it, like rolling stock and infastructure.
Not all the lines run to San Francisco. Some of them run between two of the branches in the East Bay; if you're on one of those, you have to transfer at Oakland to get to SF.
Oops, I should have said FOUR lines to SF. But that is still a lot for a two track line.
I just took a quick look at BART's on-line schedule. Very easy to use. See http://www.transitinfo.org/BART/.
There are 21 trains between 7:30 and 8:30 from Embarcadero to Civic Center on 4 lines. The 5th line goes from Fremont to Richmond and never goes to SF.
With a little more work it would be clear how those trains are divided between the 4 lines. But to simplify, you have 4 lines with 5 tph each. The NYCTA could do that too!
By the way, given that in rush hour the A train is really 3 separate lines (Lefferts, Far Rockaway, Rockaway Park), the A and C are really 4 separate lines through Bway-Nassau!
to be more clear only two lines run to SF at all hours. the other two do so only from AM rush thru PM rush M-Sat. outside of rush headways are +/-15 min per line that's 4 TPH x four lines = 16 TPH and for this they bought a computer.
Actually 21 trains in the peak morning hour, but still not overwhelming.
yes, and 16 in 'base day' my point was that both of these figures are pitiful for a so called 'new technology' system. CTA did better in the State St Subway half a century ago using good old relay driven wayside signals. I am not a Luddite in this regard, rather I have massive contempt for 'DOD' style spending resulting in no extra benefits to the riders.
Or, as they say "a high level of technology but a low level of engineering".
We have to admit, however, that we are far fussier today about safety issues than they were in the past, and safety often means fewer tph.
While that is true in general, my point was that an electro-mechanical block signal system was capable of sufficient TPH to better he current 'hi-tech' system. As to absolute safety, a red signal w/tripper is pretty rigorous unless some #%*@%^&**$ wires the trip arm down. When BART first opened the state PUC did not trust the computer control system and required 'manual block' operation featuring a plywood shack with telephones on each platform calling each other and central to report train movements. (as a comedic note, the original BART train control were "Westinghouse" supplied, but in fact GE 'prodak machnes with W decals) Happily all of that stuff has long since been replaced.
I'm curious, are you suggesting that the max tph is governed by the mediocre state of the new technology, rather than some other factor like budgets, availability of rolling stock, or just that more trains aren't needed to prevent overcrowding?
BART is after all closer to a commuter railroad than a subway in terms of the areas it serves and the spacing between stations outside of downtown
They promised (or at least spoke of) 90 second headways under Market St. That's 40 tph. I remember. I was there when we voted for it, put with years and years of pain while they built it, and left shortly after they opened it.
The new technology was worse than mediocre.
NO, BART WANTS to be a suburban shuttle, but in riders per route mile, the heaviest ridership is the SF leg where it is a SUBWAY with good connections to local bus, streetcar, and trolley coach services. Also, omly within SF the MUNI Fastpass is a monthly unlimited use fare on BART--the only discount pass they honor. In terms of service, the current trains are sardined out in rush hour, and thus a greater TPH would either be more comfortable, or provide for more riders.
This so called "new technology" WAS new.....thirty years ago when the system opened in 1972.
yes, and BART was a very expensive beta test. Unfortunately, Bay Area citizens had to pay for the system even though it never performed correctly. To this day they have neveer been able to run the 40TPH they touted in their early PR screeds (along with 'seats for every rider). Original BART cars were delivered with NO standee hand holds.
I do remember. AC-Transit (the 'AC' represents 'Alemeda and Contra-Costa County') did not decrease its service to the Trans-Bay Transit Terminal -- this is the official name, impaled on the concrete above the portals -- (tho' they did reroute many lines). I'm an East Bay boy who loved public transit in the 60s and 70s.
the changeover dates from the eighties. It took BART ten plus tears to become reliable enough to use in preference to AC. (and bt a quirk of fate AC lost its best funding as a result of 13) As someone who lives near Ashby, the choice was obvious AC published a reliable schedule and ran 'til 2AM, BART was hit or miss and quit at midnite. By the 90's AC had lost most of the Transbay market as the the SF worker bees were living further out. The major BART schedule change in 1992 FINALLY coordinated transbay service so that riders from the Richmond line got cross platform transfers to/from SF bound trains. Concurrently, AC was losing budget, and bus service was severely degraded--no owl, many routes no weekend or evening. Some of this has been restored but AC is the poor cousin in the mix.
Some of this has been restored but AC is the poor cousin in the mix.
I'm sure this is all true, but BART also has the advantage that it goes to multiple downtown SF destinations AND allows transfers (clumsily, it's true) to Muni Metro. If you work at Civic Center, AC Transit only gets to you to the Transbay Terminal, right? BART's three major Market Street stops seemed to be fairly equally used when I rode it.
BART station exit numbers from a SRTP last year:
August 24, 2000
Montgomery 38,670
Embarcadero 34,770
Powell 22,380
Civic Center 16,150
12th - Oakland 12,590
Balboa Park 11,920
24th - SF 11,880
Berkeley 10,500
16th - SF 9,060
El Cerrito del Norte 8,660
19th - Oakland 8,070
Daly City 7,640
Glen Park 7,560
Fruitvale 7,460
Colma 7,040
Pleasant Hill 6,990
MacArthur 6,970
Fremont 6,430
Concord 6,400
Walnut Creek 6,320
Coliseum 6,070
Dublin/Pleasanton 6,070
San Leandro 5,150
Bay Fair 5,100
Rockridge 4,870
Hayward 4,840
West Oakland 4,700
Pittsburg/Bay Point 4,690
Lake Merritt 4,410
El Cerrito Plaza 4,400
Ashby 4,340
Union City 4,120
North Berkeley 3,740
Richmond 3,710
Lafayette 3,210
South Hayward 3,050
Orinda 2,810
Castro Valley 2,180
North Concord 1,910
Total 326,830
April - June 2000
Figure 2-4 Exits by Station
While these numbers are stale, IMHO they are representative. As to convenience, yes of course I use BART to SF rather than AC these days. As I noted in another post the changeover came when they actually began to run with some reliability. Conversely, for financial district worker bees, AC which in rush hours runs expresses from many neighbohoods not directly served by BART is a viable option. In fact their transbay ridership has increased in the last few years having bottomed out in the 90's.
Hey Guys and Gals,
Some of you know me personally, some don't.
I am going to be riding the entire subway in 30-40 hours straight on February 25th-26th. (Monday and Tuesday)
Here is the criteria:
- I need to pass every station even If I don't see every platform(for example, I have passed 59th St. on the Lex if I have gone through the top or bottom level.)
- I do not need to go on all tracks (i.e local and express, just one as long as it's on the same line)
- I want to do the expresses that run during the day during the day. Not the night. (Don't put me on the canarsie line during the day when I could be riding the Fulton St. Express)
- I will NOT take buses, unless they are shuttle's for sections of tracks on G.O.'s
- I am starting from one of the following stations:
- Clark St. (IRT)
- High St. (IND)
- Court St. (BMT)
- I am willing to use all possible transfers within the subway, including paid ones (Like the Livonia, Junius one on the Canarsie and New Lots lines)
I am starting the trip at 6AM on the 25th.
If anyone wants to join me for portions or the whole thing send me an e-mail.
I will be getting the G.O.'s for those days from NYCT shortly.
Please send possible routes and suggestions.
Thanks again,
Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Don't forget the two free Metro-Card transfers you have available (at Court St in LIC, and between 59th-Lex IRT and 63/Lex IND stations. They're on the map, so they're legal.
«They're on the map, so they're legal»
It would be legal to use only one of them.
Arti
Remember that the Queens Blvd local and express portions between Queens Plaza and roosevelt Blvd. count as seperate lines. Also you need to ride the M connection between Broad St. and the N/R tunnels and the R between Queens Plaza and Lex Ave.
Did you read his criteria? He wants to pass through every station, not every section of trackage.
He said he wanted to ride the entire system. The system is every "route mile". Its not that much extra work and it is more furfilling. Hey, it was just a sugestion.
If you plan for food and bathroom breaks here is a tip
HGo to Grand Central or Penn Station for a rest
You're a SICK sick man ... don't forget to do the Frankie, now. :)
Thanks Kevin
It will certainly be an experience.
-Harry
Heh. Never wanted to do that task ... and after working the system for a short while, I'd be even less inclined. Wish I had some advice, but I haven't a clue as to how to work that thing effectively.
Good luck. I'd love to join you but I can't. No route suggestions from me - just thinking about the logistics overwhelms me. Maybe someday I'll try this ride.
Are you doing this just for fun, or are you contacting Guiness to break the current record of this trip? -Nick
It is for a school project (I am a senior in high school). I am going to be keeping a journal and taking pictures. Eventually I will compile it into a lengtyh photo-essay.
-Harry
ur soooo lucky u and ur skool. i started college last year when i graduated benjamin cardozo in 2001 june. our final project was a thesis on some book u picked. Everyone knew me as F train and there was no transit related item i could do for my project cause then i would have got a A :(
If you could pick a book to do the thesis, then could you not have picked a book related to transit?
Good luck to you. I hope some folks decide to join you so you have some company.
Have you read the novel "Tunnel Vision"? Two transit fans make a bet - one of them has to ride to every station in the Underground system AND take a photo of each station (for proof).
In keeping up with quality control and scheduled maintenance service (SMS), www.nyrail.org has been redesigned with help from user comments. The main feature is that I have eliminated those annoying frames, thus maximizing the browser screen are for large photos. Check it out!
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Very nice.
:-) Andrew
"Don't anybody fall down, don't anybody get hurt tonight," cautioned a fire chief as a recent night shift began [at the WTC site]. The temperature dipped below 30 degrees on this evening, as crews worked in what would have been the area underneath the Marriott World Trade Center. Above their heads was the gaping mouth of a subway tunnel.
A tunnel near the Marriott? Could this actually mean PATH?
A tunnel near the Marriott? Could this actually mean PATH?
old southern connection to now-demolished Hudson Terminal station? We've heard that much of what used to be there was still there underground, used for truck access. Could this be that?
Not near the Marriott. My guess is that they've excavated down past the tubes' point of entry into the bathtub. The eastbound tube's entry would be right under the Marriott.
Not near the Marriott. My guess is that they've excavated down past the tubes' point of entry into the bathtub. The eastbound tube's entry would be right under the Marriott.
This is hard to do without a map, but IIRC the southern tube comes in at the bottom of the bathtub and then swings south to the southern end of the bathtub before angling north into the platform area.
Hard to tell from the description, but if they're UNDER the tubes already ... that's gotta be the very, very bottom of the bathtub. Seemed more likely to me to be a higher-level tube. Also, "gaping mouth" sounds like it's open ... unless they (or 9/11) already demolished a chunk of the connector between the Hudson tubes and the station ... ???
Maybe you missed the news reports week before last; they've already excavated down past to or below the PATH station. So it doesn't seem improbable that the whole bathtub down past the tube has been excavated in the last 2 weeks.
Looking at my Hagstrom's detailed map of downtown Manhattan, the south PATH tube enters the bathtub smack under the middle of the former Marriott.
I also remember a report from about 1969 that PATH commuters were slightly diconcerted to suddenly see daylight as a result of the original excavations.
In addtion, I've read that the PATH station is 6 flights down and the bathtub as a whole goes down 7 flights.
All of which tends to confirm that they are talking about where the PATH enters the bathtub.
Just to keep everyone alert, the exchanges between my buddy Selkirk and me have been a barrel of laughs from my end, and it might be a good idea for #1Brighton Express Bob to get back on line pronto or he will be replaced quickly. But if you notice we have been able to stay on topic for the most part with references to various and sundry trains, while he tried to bust my chops with derogatory remarks about the fabulous Sea Beach. We can ride one another and get pretty intense but there is no flamage and nothing personal about it. It shows that we are a diverse and, for the most part I hope, a classy lot. Just thought I'd mention it because I haven't seen too much nasty stuff on board lately and I want to keep it that way. We can disagree without being disagreeable, although now we should all know that Selkirk is one strange dude.
Amen to that, buddy..............
Stuart, RLine86Man
Ummm ... Fred ... a bit late to note that I'm strange ... I'm king of the killfile! Heh. And as to your "fabulous" Sea Bits ... Las Vegas is "fabulous" ... the Sea Bits ... well ... I'd say cattle cars, but Bossie here is getting restless. Moo.
Selkirk: I like that. "King of the Killfile." Does this mean that we have to call Fred "The Sea Beach Avanger?"
Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred WHO? :)
Hey Larry, I don't stand so tall in all of this either. There is one guy who has already put me in his killfile and I;m sure there were others some time back who comtemplated the same thing. I've been on my best behavior since with one exception. When I hear someone say something really stupid that seems to target an individual or a group in a hateful manner, then I, and I think, most of us, get our danders up and try to put that perp in his place.
This evening there's a public scoping meeting for the NYC Cross-Harbor Freight Project environmental impact statement. It's at PS 1, 309 47th Street (3rd-4th Avenues), Brooklyn. Take the R train to 45th Street in Sunset Park, walk 2 blocks south on 4th Avenue to get to PS 1.
Anyone else going?
INFO: NYC Economic Development Corp. 877-942-7347, or see Cross Harbor Study website.
If the Cross-Harbor Tunnel is built (God willing), how and where would it connect to the Bay Ridge Line? I take it that using the current Bay Ridge Terminal wouldn't give enough room to tunnel down under the harbor.
- Lyle Goldman
If the Cross-Harbor Tunnel is built (God willing), how and where would it connect to the Bay Ridge Line? I take it that using the current Bay Ridge Terminal wouldn't give enough room to tunnel down under the harbor.
Essentially it dives down into a portal before the terminal. See their website (www.crossharbortunnel.org) for maps, etc.
Good for you. Thanks for posting that.
Good for you. Thanks for posting that.
You're welcome! I went, and chatted with a bunch of transit folks and consultants. Zero opposition, only 5 speakers from an audience of about 40, all local politicos who supported it. Most cogent analysis came from Jon Orcutt of Tri-State Transit Coalition, who had technical comments on the scoping document.
The night before in the Bronx, they'd gotten an audience of exactly 3. They said the Staten Island meeting, however, was VERY unpleasant! North Shore rail ROW for passengers, perhaps, but freight over the collected dead bodies of much of SI. Honestly, the Jersey City alignment looks like it makes more sense plus it makes it a bi-state deal.
Most interesting part to me: The study does NOT require a Brooklyn deepwater container port to make sense economically. Most challenging issue, besides funding: How to replace the lost revenue to the Port Authority from removing all those trucks from the bridges? I must admit I'd never considered that angle ... and charging tolls on rail-freight tunnels can't be that common, since most are owned by the RRs themselves. I'm sure they can work out something, though.
(Most interesting part to me: The study does NOT require a Brooklyn deepwater container port to make sense economically.)
The analyses of the economic benefits of the tunnel are frauds produced by advocates on the same model as the wonderful impact of publicly funded stadiums for the Yankees and Mets.
The analyses of the economic benefits of the tunnel are frauds produced by advocates on the same model as the wonderful impact of publicly funded stadiums for the Yankees and Mets.
Goodness. Strong words.
Care to explain why you think a cross-harbor freight tunnel is NOT worth the $$$? I'm curious.
How about making the Cross Harbor Freight tunnel passenger friendly? It would make sense as an alternate to get to and from the city from Jersey. It could be only used during rush hours and it could be a viable option for rush hour trains that can't get in and out of Penn Station.
Possibilities:
A connection from Jamaica, Queens thru Brooklyn to Newark or Jersey City via the NY & A trackage. Quite a few subway connections it passes and it opens up travel for South Brooklynites. It could connect with NJ Transit on the Jersey side and opens the possibilities of a Newark Airport-Kennedy Airport connection.
Thoughts?
How about making the Cross Harbor Freight tunnel passenger friendly?
Not worth the added expense of extra tunnels ... not that much demand for Jersey City to Bay Ridge transit. See the many, many, many previous posts re/Staten Island to Bay Ridge tunneling to provide SI with subways to the rest of NYC. Same argument, broadly, applies to Jersey City.
[...not that much demand for Jersey City to Bay Ridge transit.]
That's not the point here. Making a reliable tunnel access from Brooklyn's waterfront to New Jersey would connect every community on Long Island's four counties (Kings, Queens, Nassau & Suffolk) with the mainland U.S.A. So the demand IS there -- just getting the politicos and NIMBY's to stop their squabbling and 'get the lead out'.
BMTman
I agree. If they do decide to make it two tunnels, I would think you want an option in place to run passenger service. I lived in South Brooklyn for years and cursed the fact I had to take the N to Pacific St transfer to the 2 or 3 to Penn Station to board my NJ Transit to MetroPark. The whole trip took over 3 hours.
. If they do decide to make it two tunnels, I would think you want an option in place to run passenger service.
Well, it'll be a twin-track tunnel with sufficient overhead clearance for double-stacked containers plus enough room for later electrification.
But they are NOT considering -- in any way, shape or form -- any plan to add additional tracks for passenger rail. And remember, any commuter trains would have to be strictly separated from freight rails.
I don't know about that one. Amtrak shares trackage with Norfolk Southern and CSX and they have overhead wires. LIRR shares trackage with NY & A, so I'm sure it can be done with a little prodding to the FRA.
Right now the only passenger service directly in and out NJ is from NY Penn Station and GOD forbid something tragic was to happen to those tracks. So a second alternate should be looked into. Imagine the amount of businesses that will open in Brooklyn with the opening of the freight yards and people having no way to get there to work.
"And remember, any commuter trains would have to be strictly separated from freight rails."
Huh?!?! LIGHT rail trains and freights can't use the same tracks during the same hours, but there's no prohibition of freight and commuter trains as simultaneous users of tracks. It's done all the time here in Chicago on some Metra routes, and I believe it's also done in Los Angeles on Metrolink.
there's no prohibition of freight and commuter trains as simultaneous users of tracks.
You're right ... sorry, minor brain fade.
I still maintain that while connecting the LIRR to NJT *might* be good transit planning, it will *never* happen as part of this freight tunnel project. For one thing, the Jersey side is a huge container yard and having commuter trains whizzing (hopefully) through it might not be the best idea.
I think it was Larry that said some time ago that it is very hard to prove the economic benifits of the tunnel, i.e. would it actually result in a significant number of less trucks crossing the Hudson River. It seems obvious on the surface, but when you get into the nuts and bolts of it, it becomes harder to prove.
Remember this is just a study, and one of three plans. The best may be to throw a little money at the car float system & see if traffic increases. If it does proceed with the tunnel idea.
Mr rt__:^)
Anyone create an LIRR or MNRR BVE layout?
Not yet ... but it's more likely to happen in BVE than in MSTS. There's a number of sites that have VERY detailed instructions on how to do it and plenty of "objects" from other authors that could be pressed into service for a "route" if someone's game. The HARD part is riding the lines and getting the mileposts, signals and interlockings and station locations down ... not insurmountable ... are ya bored? Wanna learn something new? Be a BVE hero to other foamers? ":)
From the Associated Press today:
NEW YORK (AP) - The once-daunting job of whittling away at the
World Trade Center's ruins was supposed to take a year and run as
much as $7 billion, but workers now expect to remove the last of
the rubble by summer at a cost estimated to be closer to $1
billion.
The city and work crews say the cleanup has gone faster than
expected due to longer shifts and a prevailing attitude that
victims' families deserve their relentless labor. Workers also
credit the speedy progress to a mild winter.
Still, they must pick through the debris 24 hours a day -
sometimes in snow and rain.
"Don't anybody fall down, don't anybody get hurt tonight,"
cautioned a fire chief as a recent night shift began. The
temperature dipped below 30 degrees on this evening, as crews
worked in what would have been the area underneath the Marriott
World Trade Center. Above their heads was the gaping mouth of a
subway tunnel.
Scattered among unrecognizable debris were mundane and oddly
untouched office items - a box of ball point pens, some spilling
out, leaking blue ink into the ashy dirt. Papers peeked out of red
file folders, flapping in the chilly breeze. A pink invoice from a
16th floor office listed a payment for $193.26.
Since the recovery effort began underground last month, workers
have toiled in the pit that once was the trade center's seven-story
basement. Hundreds of trucks carry rubble out of the crater each
day, more than 1 million tons in all now.
The job has entered its final phase as crews lay the foundation
for a 500-foot-long metal ramp along the western edge of the pit to
replace the two that are now on site - ramps made out of debris and
topped with dirt.
The debris "presumably contains remains," said Kenneth Holden,
commissioner of the city's Design and Development Corporation.
After the cleanup shifted to areas below the fallen twin towers,
pockets of victims' remains were found, many in stairwells and
other spots that were partially protected as steel beams fell like
pickup sticks.
At the foot of one of the muddy ramps, giant orange excavators
claw through the ruins, setting down piles for firefighters to pick
through with hand tools as they search for remains. Of the nearly
2,900 victims, 684 have been matched to remains by the medical
examiner.
During the next five months, Holden said, the biggest challenge
will be coordinating the many operations beginning to creep back
into the area, such as the transit authority's work to rebuild a
damaged subway tunnel. Above ground, the developer who holds the
lease on the property wants to build a group of smaller structures
and a memorial to the victims.
"As the site gets considered to be less and less a disaster
area, and more and more a reconstruction area, what's happening is
more and more people want to move back - which is great, as it
should be," Holden said.
It will be interesting to see how this affects the state/federal funds for downtown cleanup and rebuilding. An extra $6 billion to work with can build a lot of stuff, including a lot of the Second Ave. subway, though I'm sure there will be a move to deduct that amount from the federal payment to NYC.
This is a *total* cover of this Monday's NY Times cover story!
An extra $6 billion to work with can build a lot of stuff, including a lot of the Second Ave. subway, though I'm sure there will be a move to deduct that amount from the federal payment to NYC.
Well, I'll be surprised if we get the entire $20 billion, but hasn't something like $11 billion already been funded?
The greater point, I think, is whether "rebuild" means "radically alter and improve the infrastructure in places slightly outside the WTC footprint." Presumably the details are in the enabling legislation that got passed in late September.
Don't know. The original $20 billion was supposed to help fund both the clean-up and restoration of the area, but "restoration" can either have a narrow (the area immediately around the WTC site) or a broad meaning (anything that improves the area's quality of life, including improved mass transit access). Either way, it is $6 billion more that should be available once the clean-up work is completed this summer.
(As for the steal from the Times you mentioned on the other post, it wouldn't be surprising, since the Times is an Associated Press member, which gives the organization the right to rework and edit stories submitted by members as they see fit, though normally when that's done the submitting news organization is credited by the AP),
"Clean up" is necessary, but the purpose off the money was also to rebuild and restore lower Manhattan. By rights, that money is New York's to spend on rebuilt streets, traffic lights, incentives to developers to rebuild the WTC site, a memorial to be included, enhancements to subway and PATH (see today's NY Times article) and so on. New York needs to be made whole again.
The TA should restore the original IRT route back into service using the 42nd street shuttle trackways. Catching a train on track 4 of the 42nd street shuttle can be a nightmare during rush hour. You meet hords of people as you rush to the train only to get left. The line should travel the 1904 route, where locals run from South Ferry to the Bronx and express trains from 241st or 238th street(180th street during middays) to either Atlantic ave, Utica and/or Flatbush aves.
The trains should be designated with a red/green circle that reads: (1, 10 or 12-IRT local). And express trains read: (13, 14 and/or 15-IRT express). The 9 train would continue via the 7th avenue line to South Ferry.
Current 2,3 and 4,5,6, service would remain the same and make the same stops. This will increase capacity and minimize overcrowding on during rush hours sense just about everyone that takes the shuttle tranfers to Lexington avenue trains anyway. This plan basically eliminates the 42nd street shuttle entirely.
The TA should restore the original IRT route back into service using the 42nd street shuttle trackways.
I would love this, completely love it. But this is one of the MOST far-fetched SubTalk fantasies. There's only one track on either end connected to the upper west side and downtown east side IRT tracks. There are also some ugly flyover issues for the east end, and a major crossover switching problem on the west end. Never, never, never happen. Sadly.
the 1904 route, where locals run from South Ferry to the Bronx and express trains from 241st or 238th street(180th street during middays) to either Atlantic ave, Utica and/or Flatbush aves.
The 1904 route was City Hall to 137th only!
A reconnect could be done -- with great difficulty -- at Grand Central, since there is room for flying junctions from the Lex uptown local track south of 42nd St. But it could never be done at Times Square, since the downtown shuttle track connection would have to cross the IRT Seventh Ave. tracks at grade, with a flying junction impossible to create with the BMT Broadway tracks one level below and the street one level above.
Its safe to say that won't happen. If that where to happen that would have to bring out a major Construction project because only track 4 leads to the Broadway line and only track 1 leads to the Lexington Ave line. Also they would have to rebuild Grand Central and Times Square to take 10 Cars. I really don't see how it would improve IRT service but It would be one hell of a fan trip.
If you don't like useing the Shuttle there are other ways to make it cross town. You can use the No.7 Line or the N,R,or W Lines.
It is practically impossible to construct and no one really wants to cross town anyway. You are really cutting local service on both lines. Just deal with the crowds, wait for the next train, or take the 7.
What would be the feasibility of building a pair of track connections between the 42nd Street Shuttle and the #7 Line (one connection for each direction)? It wouldn't have to be used for passenger service; it could be used simply to more easily connect the Flushing Line with the rest of the IRT system, making it easier to move #7 Train cars around the system.
- Lyle Goldman
What would be the feasibility of building a pair of track connections between the 42nd Street Shuttle and the #7 Line (one connection for each direction)?
Where would you put it? You've got some major elevation differences there, in one of the mostly densely packed areas of midtown. Plus, remember that the 7 turns south from 42nd Street to run under 41st Street roughly west of Fifth Avenue.
Probably the only place you could put such a collection of flyovers & flyunders would be under Bryant Square Park, if any remaining space hasn't been taken up already by the underground NYPL stacks expansion that happened several years ago around the time that the park was rebuilt. Further east you've got GCT, and east of that the different elevations would make it impossible.
Spotted at ENY yard was a train of 4 Budd R-32 cars with N train route sign on the sides and ends of the train. I took some pictures as it left on the approach to the Broadway BMT. The time was around 11:45pm (approx.) Why the train was there is all I could image.
Unknown, but it could be because of the incoming 143's. ENY may send to Coney some R40 slants and mods, and then Coney will release R32s, likely to Jamaica.
Chances are Coney Island Yard sent them up aas a transfer for horses to take dead R40/42 cars down to the main shop. They probably won't go into service on that portion of the BMT
The minute I photoed them, the train left the yard.
They might have brought cars back to ENY. In that case, the transfer crew might have started at CI, and are using the extra cars as a deadhead.
Maybe it was (part of) an N that took the wrong lineup coming out of Montague, and for whatever reason it was decided to leave it in the yard. Or maybe not.
Frankly, I don't see the purpose of having 3 trains end at 71 street, the R train should end at 179th street via local stops, while F trains make all express stops to/from 179th street. And the V and G train can end at 71 street.
Sorry, I did it again. Don't reply here, see same thread in SubTalk.
This was done from 1988-92, and people complained too much.
Why?
Loss of direct service to Manhattan via the express. This issue has been revisited time and time again here.
Local stops east of Forest Hills were not being adequatley service by the R train over the E train which it replaced.
I'm for it--BUT it might make sense to increase the TPH of (R) trains. Otherwise you end up with some underserved stations on the Hillside local. Once the R143 order starts to pick up steam, this might become possible.
:-) Andrew
It is 71st AVENUE for the 90-trillionth thime.
There is never a time when 3 trains terminate at 71st AVENUE. When the V runs to 71st AVENUE, the G doesn't. And when the G runs to 71st AVENUE, the V doesn't.
830pm to Midnight, all three run to 71st AVe
I'm sorry, I stand corrected! I thought that the G didn't start up on Queens Blvd until midnight on weeknights. My mistake!
Trains run at longer headways in the evenings, so 3 routes can run at the same time.
You're absolutely right pal. I remember the days when I went from 179 to Lex/3rd in under 30 minutes, give or take a minute. The current setup makes no freaking sense. I think they're doing it like that because there were delays getting into 179 during rush hour when it was the F and the R terminal.
What, only 2 trains will terminate at the same station during daytime (With (G) as the only one terminating during Overnight Hours). (V) for Weekdays, (R) everyday except for overnight, (G) only weekends and overnight.
Besides, I find that using the (Q) after when the Manhattan Bridge reopens both sides for service between Brighton Beach and Parsons & Hillside as an express throughout the line via the Broadway (Manhattan) and 63rd. St. tunnels.
The stations that it would use is just limited to 57St & 7th Ave, Lex Ave & 63 St., Roosevelt Island, 21St. Queensbridge, 74 St-Broadway, 71/Continental, Union Turnpike and Parsons & Hillside on the Queens Blvd when operating beyond 57St. & 7th Ave, retaining its Broadway express status right now.
The stations that it would use is just limited to 57St & 7th Ave, Lex Ave & 63 St., Roosevelt Island, 21St. Queensbridge, 74 St-Broadway, 71/Continental, Union Turnpike and Parsons & Hillside on the Queens Blvd when operating beyond 57St. & 7th Ave, retaining its Broadway express status right now
How many E & F trains are you going to cut to allow this service to operate? What will you tell the angry masses who use 53rd. St. that their service will be cut even more? What advantages does a Q route have over an F or V route when both line basically parallel each other through midtown?
Thank you....................
Sometimes "fantasy" routes conflict with common sense.
Any reason why the TA rennovated stations and did not add elevators to them?
Here are a few:
Park Place 2 and 3
Broadway Nassau A and C
Whitehall street N and R
The new rebuilt stops an the Broadway BMT in Brooklyn J, M and Z lines.
Union Square 4, 5 and 6
The Lenox line 2 and 3 stops from 110 street to 135th street.
Utica Ave A and C
Any reason why the TA rennovated stations and did not add elevators to them?
Previous posts indicate that the TA doesn't have to add elevators for ADA compliance if (1) station renovation is less than 'total'; or (2) there are physical constraints that would prevent it.
In the case of Union Square 4,5,6 the platforms were said to be too narrow to safely permit elevators, so I gather they got a waiver.
Only designated key stations are required to be rehabbed to ADA compliance. I don't know exactly how it's determined whether a station is "key," but I suppose it has something to do with passenger counts, transfers, and available space for elevators or ramps.
I'm curious, are there tours of yards other than Coney Island shops? I've always wanted to visit 207th street and 239th street shops and yards, I heard there's some cool retired R-type equipment at these shops.
There are no upcomeing scheduled tours but there where tours at 207 Street, Coney Island, 240th Yard, and Westchester Yard. I went to the Westchester Yard tour in 1998 that was a good one.
239th has not had any tours.
Figuring now, thers's an issue of safety.
Safety is a big issue in the Yards.
Safety is a big issue in the yards,,,,,nevah know when someone is taking a wizz at 239th, especially the tracks with adjacent third rails and lightpoles. Safety is such a big issue....that we were invited to bring our families to the Car Rodeo and they had to stay in the cafeteria while only TA employees were allowed to observe the activities. A big disappointment for those who traveled long distances.
Good old 239 Yard. You know I spent a lot of time in that yard during school car. At 239 Yd I quilifed on Flagging proceedures for other then head car operation and hooked down a stop arm. 239 YD is also where I did 3rd rail jumper cables the student in front of me gave everyone a scare. Then finally thats where I took my final practical Exam where they say Congrats your now a Conductor.
I must say its very easy to get lost inside the shop.
btw I may stop by to check out the new R142's before going down to the East.
And some goodbyes to Rottenboids too! CI Peter
The New York Division, Electric Railroaders' Association sponsored a very successful tour of 207th Street Shop on September 8, 2001. We ask NYCT for tours from time to time, and when they are approved, David Pirmann posts a notice in the "upcoming events" section of this website.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I was on that tour, and many of the pictures I took are posted on the 207 street yard tour page. You'll also see many pictures from Paul Polischuk, Steve Hoskins, and our esteemed WebMaster Dave. That was also the day of the TryTransit Festival at Hoboken. I stayed at the WTC Marriott that weekend :-(
The TA should start a tunnel cleaning program to reduce the level of iron dust at stations and crud that builds up in stations and track beds when stations are cleaned. If the tunnels are cleaned once or twice annually, then the air in the subway will be better to breathe.
There was an article some time ago talking about how CO's and TO's were getting cancer from the iron dust inhallation. I never heard anything else of it, my guest is the TA swept it as far under the rug as they could. If iron dust is posing harm to TA eployees, then imagine the passengers. They did go on to say that iron dust was harmless, but I wouldn't put it past them if it weren't. This contrast the use germicidal lamps on R-11 cars.
Has anyone done studies on the long-term effects of steel dust inhalation?
none that i know of, though i'd imagine the dust is inert and would just pass through the body... unless the lungs are taking it up and giving the body iron, which might be healthy! :)
Servicing Redbird propulsion means stronger red blood cells too. CI Peter
You tend to set off the metal detectors at the airports after 10 years off service.
The smoke and smell is from the WabTek Cobra composition brake shoes. There is little steel dust if any emitted today....I know...I do undercar...and everything else. The 'ancient dirt' is something to consider...maybe TA needs a 360' VacTrak tunnel sucker. CI Peter
The first time I railfanned PATH, my first observation was the fact the PA had lights in their tunnels, and that the tunnel walls were *clean*. Compare this to any stretch of the NYC subway.
They need to develop a scrubber train, basically a moving, inverted version of a car wash, where they scrub the ceiling and walls with strong detergent and hot water (presumably after waterproofing the signaling etc).
NYC subway tunnels are considered nothing more than a larger sewer. At the 6th ave BMT, when cleaners wash the passage, you can hear all the water drop in the tunnel.
The first time I railfanned PATH, my first observation was the fact the PA had lights in their tunnels, and that the tunnel walls were *clean*.
Where ??? From a couple hours at PATH railfan windows ... they do have lights, but the tunnels look FILTHY unless they've all been painted dark brown. Within stations, you can see little heaps of grime or brake dust or whatever on the near-horizontal sections of the cast-iron tunnel flanges. I'd say TA stations and tunnels are FAR cleaner than PATH.
yea but at least PATH trains get better speed between stations so it moves faster. not to mention PA equipment doesn't scream when it hits the brakes like certain NYCT equipment............
they also do NOT always have to dump upon arrival at terminals. they can do like LIRR. bottle the air, change ends and just go in the opposite direction. some NYCT trains take 17 seconds to charge
Maybe my memory is defective, but my memory of the Hudson tunnels (vs tunnels under land) is that they were quite clean, as if they had been recently scrubbed. The lights were a surprise.
A tunnel scrubbing train is still a good idea.
The last i heard was a welder was needed to help restore the 3 BMT Standards that are currently undergoing work at CI shops. On my visit to CI shops, I was told the delay in restoration of the B-type was the lack of an experienced welder. If anyone is experienced in welding or knows someone who is, contact the personnel that you know at CI shops working in the restoration of the B-type cars. I'm looking forward to a fan trip.
It is already taken care of. But thank you for the thought.
Is there any chance we could get an update on how the restoration of the BMT cars is going, and on what the plans are for when it is completed? Puleeeze...? :-)
Frank Hicks
What's the most attractive car in the subway?
For me, it's the R-38's, because they're fluted from the window down and retain their traditional style sign bonnets. My other is the R-62's, they look good on any el.
R62A.
:-) Andrew
The R-62 and R-68---------when they were totalllly new!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I agree, I remember the railfan window riding the R-68's.
When they (at one time) had the half-size cab in the lead car, yeah....but since, like, 1994-95, the TA has used the transverse cab for the T/O on all R-68/68Alpha equipment :(
Stuart, RLine86Man
i like the R46s as they are now WITHOUT the blue stripe. those are my all time favorite. and they have been there since my childhood rides on the E and F. and they will most likely be there if i should be a Motorman
I was referring to the R-68's, naught the 46's
And I thought it was my imagination when one time I saw a 68 lead car with the half-cab at the end... It was a while ago, so I don't quite remember and don't know what to think.
They did do that for a little while, mainly on the (Q) line
Stuart, RLine86Man
Me too. Too bad it's now a thing of the past.
My vote goes to the R-32s as delivered from Budd, followed by the R-10s in the racing stripe scheme.
My favorite R-Type subway car(s)? The R-ABs and the R-Triplexes of course!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Neither were considered R units, as they predated even the R-1s. They were bona fide BMT equipment.
The R-32's when new, and also the R-33/36WF cars.
The original R44 and R46 subway cars were the best-looking subway cars in the 1970s. Jeffrey.
They were also the ONLY NYC Transit cars in the 1970s, unless one counts the last pair of R-42, which were delivered in 1970.
David
I agree, i love the Blue State Stripe and The broken kicked out windows, also love the bi-centennial stripe.
The R44 and R46 were MUCH better looking with the blue stripe, as are the M1s and M3s. Those on Metro-North and the few left on the LIRR which still have it are a nice sight.
:-) Andrew
The R44 and R46 were MUCH better looking with the blue stripe, as are the M1s and M3s. Those on Metro-North and the few left on the LIRR which still have it are a nice sight.
Agreed.
Stuart, RLine86Man
The R32's when new, too.
i say the r 17's on the pelham bay line ..........#6
any of em with a railfan window will do !!!
R-36WF's my favorite, The R-62's R-32's, the slants good railfan window.
my man !! ................lol !!
R-33/36 World's Fair cars in their original interior and exterior paint schemes.
The R-1's. Rattan seats, manual roll signs, incandescent lighting, hydraulic hissing when the doors opened, a bold "THE CITY OF NEW YORK" on the sides.
These cars were New York through and through.
As delivered, I'm sure the R-1s did indeed look beautiful. I loved them, but didn't think they were particularly attractive. What WAS attractive was their marvelous cacaphony of moans, groans, grunts, snarls, and hisses.
For me the list goes as follows:R1-9 by a longshot, definitely the most handsome car.R-32 when they had the blue doors. (they're ugly now)R32-33 in blue & white Worlds Fair colors.
Attaboy! That'd be my rundown as well ...
Nothing beat the R1-9's for looks.
If the question asked for the ugliest I'd have to say the "Q" cars. I enjoyed riding them on the Myrtle for their historical value but boy were they ugly.
Yeah, know what ya mean about the Q's ... so many facelifts, they went the way of Joan Rivers. (barum pum) ...
They probably looked great as gate cars but the doors just didn't look like they belonged on 'em.
The ones on the ENDS seemed almost OK, but you're right about the side doors. They were NICE to ride in though, nice and quiet when they stopped with the creaking like an old boat when the compressors weren't running ...
My vote for the ugliest car, had you asked me in 1967, would have been for the BMT standards. When I first saw them, I thought they looked absolutely awful. Riding on them every Saturday on the Canarsie line was cruel and unusual punishment, which is why I looked forward to bailing at Union Square and catching a good old BMT train with letter markings up front; namely an N of R-32s or R-27/30s.
I've come to appreciate the BMT standards for their ruggedness and indestructibility.
The C-types were uglier, if that's possible ....
--Mark
The "C"s were before my time (if that's possible) but I checked out their images on this site and I have to agree with you. They are even uglier than the "Q"s. Their doors look like they don't belong and they are outside of the cars! Were they rebuilt gate cars with the doors added like the "Q"s? By the way, on one image I checked on this site which I put below, it looks like a train of "C"s is coupled with a train of R-10's. Could that be possible or are the two trains just stopped next to each other bumper to bumper?
Jeff, the R-10 and the C are on two different tracks. The rest of the R-10 train is behind the C.
The C's Q's and the original gate cars had Van Dorn couplers which were not compatible with later equipment.
The C's were rebuilt from gatecars too, but about 15 years earlier. The Q's look alittle better than the C's because NYCTS tried to correct some of their earlier mistakes.
I always thought the R15's were ugly. Too many round windows.
What about the R11? They had that stainless steel art-deco look on the outside.
On the inside, R10 or R12 with those little fans everywhere on the ceiling and the neat round windows on the R12 though I had to wait till I was older to be tall enough to look out the higher glass on the window in front.
The R-12s didn't have round windows anywhere. The R-11s did.
Ugliest? Probably the R10 when it had the aquamarine stripe paint job.
I'm not too keen on the post-GOH R44 and R46 either.
:-) Andrew
I loved that racing stripe scheme. I's my alltime favorite. Everybody's entitled to have their own opinion.
Uh...The R32 never had Worlds Far colors. (Did it?) You must be thinking of the R33 and R36.
:-) Andrew
You're right. I must've been half asleep.
Completely agree!
--Mark
R42, when new!!!!!!
Let's see...
R32 followed by the R40 Slants.
The slants, when they first arrived.
Just curious, any R68/68A fans. Their glimmering, and shiny interior, makes them very attractive. Wished the full cab end was just closet size though, and that would give an outstanding railfan window, although the large window does give some view.
Unfortunately their glimmering, and shiny interior shows off all the scratches!
the new worlds fair #7 cars on the flushing line
no r-142 looked that good !!
Heck, how could I not chime in with my namesake, the R-11...Stainless steel glory right after the war!
Of the more mainstream cars, I would go with the R-38 closely followed by the R-40 Slant and R44/46, all pre GOH
The Worlds Fair R-33,36s in their original paint scheme. Loved those trains (pre-graffiti) when I was a kid. Half the fun going to the fair was the ride to and from on those trains.
GG: So you liked the "Bluebirds". You have excellent taste in rapid transit cars. My favorites where of course the mainline "Redbirds" with the "Bluebirds" a close second.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hell, why not give police a two car train, they have a bus?
It will add safety to late night travel and reduce fare evasion. Change disorderly situations and add a quicker response to crime related train delays. (The train should always be operated by an experienced TA motorman). And it should be between headways of road trains and have an RCI in board.
trains don't have that much freedom, they have to stay on the rails and can't pass other trains easily.
late at night with long headways and on 3 or 4 track sections it may be possible, but I don't see what good cops can do on a train, unless they just happen to roll through a station and see a crime in progress. At that time of night anyway, most crimes probably happen on (revenue) trains, not on platforms.
Agreed, cops should stay on the trains themselves because during nights, when non-revenue trains move, it could just cause more trouble for towers.
The MBTA has an emergency response LRV which can operate anywhere on the Green Line system.
Anyone from Boston here who can comment on how useful it has been?
The last I saw it is usually parked at Park St.
I've seen it move a few times, always in the tunnel. Never saw it in daylight.
Maybe it's used for emergency Sig. Mtce. and Trk. Mtce. work. Usually the way to resolve a dead train situation is to attach either the preceding or the succeeding (service) train.
Its markings clearly indicate it is an LRV for passenger emergencies (medical, police). It is definitely not a work unit.
Hey. Anyone remember actually seeing the 'litter' (and the sign that proclaimed its location) on the uptown platform at RockyCenter? It was filthy dirty last I remember seeing it, and would have probably fallen apart if you actually tried to transport a person on it. It was two wooden poles, canvas, all rolled up.
PD used to use laid up trains as a trap, of sorts, for graffiti writers. They'd hide out inside and just wait for them to come. this was back in 90, 91, 92...and probably before that as well. I don't think they do it anymore though...
THe Vandal Squad has a few tricks up their sleve. There are some layups and targets where graffiti writers go now to bomb clean trains, however those trains almost immediately get cleaned. The Vandal Squad and various Districts of the NYPD Transit Bureau know some of these "hot spots" they still practice occasional raids, very rare and very hush hush, a lot less than before, a LOT less, it is generally easier to get into tunnels and certain layups than it was say 10 years ago. I will not disclose the location of these spots.
"Police Train" has a nice ring to it ... wonder if Leslie Neilsen's willing to take on the leading role?
Yes can we use a 4 car R142 Bombardier train. Will train you to run the train so you can be the Motorman. I will be the Conductor who's job will be to play the special announcement.
When we get the bad guys on the train the Auto. Announcements will advise them of the rights being done by the male voice. After that the female voice will come on telling them what laws they violated and the Male voice will come back with the rules of conduct.
Cool! Maybe we can also have the canned messages play "good cop/bad cop" and argue with each other ... I'm game for front cab watch ... as long as we can break out the rubber hoses at some point. :)
Sure that sounds like fun!
You're a cheap date, Dave. :)
Money Train 2: Police Train
I can see it now. Another badly written action flick, this time using a redbird, painted blue and white. The marker lights could be replaced by those red-white-and-blue police lights; and the horn replaced by a police siren.
I can't think up what the plot would be, but after Money Train, I don't think it makes much difference anyway.
Howabout a combo Police Academy/Taking of Pelham .../Money Train action adventure. Woody Harrelson, Steve Guttenberg and a Walter Matthau lookalike have highjinks on the Lex local.
Yeah, and have Bubba Smith lift the train off the track.:-)
Oh, and have the Police Train rammed by a BMT standard.
If Leslie Neilsen is in it, possibly Shawn Wayans, how could you possibly go wrong? Sign it up as a Sea Beach and run it in circles through South Ferry. Taa-daa!
They'd have to have a "neener-neener" siren, too.:-)
or that sireen out of "Ghostbusters" ... and of course the obligatory bubble gum machine lights ALL around the car, worse than the money train. And of course "tower guy" pasted in the cab window.
Or Heypaul himself in the cab.:-)
Nah, he got tired of yanking the handles, we sent him to the middle of the train to hang on for dear life. :)
*lmao* Or maybe a pair of iron spikes in the front, just in case the idiot who IS drivin' this train bleeds (I know, it really can't happen) his brakes.
Actually, what was described in that piece 'o' crap movie CAN be done but fortunately not the way it was shown. And no, nobody's gonna find out from me the way to travel on empty since there's no R1/9's in the fleet anymore. BMTman knows how though. Bustini bustini ... :)
Just fish that one out of the State Museum and let Dude and Stef work their magic on it,then it'll run like a fine watch. If we could get a pair, then we could have a mini courtroom complete with judge who could handle arraignments and bail hearings. (hey, this is fun) 8~)
There's a pair up at Kennebunkport as well ... a couple of weeks ago, I managed to locate and list here a complete ten car consist of "borrowed" cars that could do duty in 2004 if there was money and interest ... I'd be willing to come out of "retirement" for school car. :)
Gimme the movie 'money train' stored at Coney Island....equip the ports with .50 Brownings and let's see how crime stats go down. CI Peter
Put On The Juice on the Ma Deuce. -- (Ma Deuce- M2 .50Cal Machine Gun) BoomBoomBoomBoomBoomBoomBoom YEE-HAH
Friggin' upstaters ... :)
'Doush doush doush' bursts my M14 Springfield through wasted Rotboid carbody. Be a good boy Selkirk and you become my spotter and ammo can carrier. The TA doesn't yet know the bargain they got in me...I serve when called...the WB2SGT mobile is fully equipped. CI Peter
I'll believe that your influence has finally corrupted TA management when Fred's SeaBits is rocket propelled ... 86th to 205th in 2 minutes, 44 seconds. Been in da pits too long, bro. :)
I was waiting to try out my high school Russian: Ruchnoi Pulomet Grenada. Boids beware! CI Peter
grenada? granati, RPG is Granataraketnaya Puska
I'm a 'Monseiur Garand MAN' too along with Springfield and Ruger. No snow up here in Warren County...time to string out the Collins Tape Dipole tonight or tomorrow and see what full carrier AM will do to a pair of 572Bs on 3885 Mc. CI Peter
Did you ever "Get" your thumb when clearing a jam in an M1 Garand? these FOAMERS don't know what pain is.
'The M1 Thumb Game?' Never played it CaChing...seventh round jam doesn't happen with new tech lubes. Garand, M14 and Mini 14....they all can benifit from vegetable oil...TA uses castor oil...it's green and I call it 'monkey oil.' Works wonders on stuck Redbird doors. CI Peter
time to string out the Collins Tape Dipole tonight or tomorrow and see what full carrier AM will do to a pair of 572Bs on 3885 Mc.
??????
I serve when called and the TA has yet to see the bargain they got in me...OnTheJuice is a professional communications technician that whose skills have gone unused and dormant for two decades. The Collins Tape Dipole is a pair of stainless steel tape measures calibrated in frequency legnth and is used by paramilitary/tactical/emergency communications providers as an emergency antenna. Full carrier AM is what you listen to on the AM (amplitude modulated) radio. A pair of 572Bs are a vacuum tube amplifier capable of one thousand watts of radio power. 3885 MegaHertz is the frequency John Blair suggested to call a friend who is a Diesel/ECU mechanic in heavy rail. OnTheJuice is a newbie/probie/provo with just four months in service as a CI, pushed to the wall by a really remarkable Maintainance Supervisor that I CANNOT NAME. I belong to a small number whom I call 'The TA Rangers' and I'm proud to play a small part in it. CI Peter, FCC Extra Class Licensee WB2SGT
Do the TA Rangers Use Johnson Rangers?
Johnson Rangers are only used for bootleg 40 meter ops by kids....the latest of course use rigs locked on freq 40-80 klicks below. Gotta Johnson 6N2 that I had wanted to run off my Yaesu FT101B for satellite many years ago. Y'AMM I AM A HAMM. Remember the desk Johnson Kilowatts??? Remember Hammarlund and Sonar in Brooklyn? Just geezing...the instructor at 207th is a TCI instructor...guy flipped when i looked him in the face when i told him I am the most senior RCA graduate at 239th YAHD. CI Peter, 'bottle burner'
"Remember the desk Johnson Kilowatts???' Heck, My buddy has one., MINT condition, As for Hammarlund, I LOVE my SP-600. Listen for W2ICQ. As for me, I just have a PIP SQUEAK, YAY-LOW license and if you are familiar with WA1H-YELL-R, you know what I mean.
I will try tomorrow. What I wish I had is a TMC GPR-90 receiver with a matching GPT750 transmitter (better yet: GPT-10K like WWV.) I am ex TMC transmitter tech too! That was the best employment of my lifetime..the best work with the best people. Till now. CI Peter
Heh. If you can make that pig roll, I'll cover your back. :)
The would be the Donut Express?
-Robert King
All the NYPD Transit Division Districts have RMPs and usually get from station to station using regular RMPs, Doesnt Make much sense to me to put in a specialized Police Train when the primary way of getting around for them is Quickly above ground. Besides I ride the subway at night quite often (bet hours of Midnight to 6 am) the Transit Divison do a pretty good job at getting to calls quickly.
My girlfriend told me of a friend of hers that works at the Angelica Film Center on Houston street near Broadway. She said how he went down in the basement area of the theater and found what he said was a passage or way that went into the subway. Ever sense she told me this, I've been looking for this person to show me this. I have reason to believe that it accesses the IRT subway, but the IND runs nearby also. I'm still under investigation of this, does anyone here have an idea about this?
Interesting.
I don't know about that.
Jamaica Center has a subway entrance right at the new multiplex theatres under construction (completion date?) at One Jamaica Center.
Only place I can think of like that is an underground passage from 50/8 to 50/B'way.
What theatre?
That far downtown, there might be vaults under the sidewalk, or even under the street. If there is a thru-passage to the Lex subway, then I'd guess it's probably a wall that's gotten removed, or maybe, never got walled over in the first place.
You find vaults under the sidewalk everywhere downtown, and hear stories of strange connections under streets, especially on the West Side as you get into downtown. I know for a fact that vaults in at least one building directly abut the IRT on West Broadway (at Worth, SE corner).
The MTA neighborhood map (see http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/localmaps/index.html) says that the IND station gets within half a block of the theater, so that's possible. The IRT is 3 blocks away.
One word. Enron.
NY State Budget hijacked by Dennis Rivera & Local 1199.
Where the windshield wippers on Redbirds always manually controlled by the train operator? I always thought they were automatic, until one day I saw an operator moving the device with his hands.
The R-38 was the first NYC subway car to come with electrically operated windshield wipers. The Redbirds never got them.
David
No Dave I recall we used handles on the R38s when I broke in. Look at the bottom left of the windshield, you can see the steel cap where they plugged the holes over. The R40-42 had the first non manual windshield wipers, I recall they were vacuum operated too. The R44/46 has been and still is electric.
Here is a picture of the blade guard with the wiper tucked inside, in place where you would find it on an older IRT car.
According to page 329 of EVOLUTION OF NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS by Gene Sansone, the R-38s came with pneumatic windshield wipers -- but the book's wrong on other counts, so maybe it's wrong on this one, too.
David
I recall running the flats on a C train of pre GOH R38s fanning the blades back and forth. The aqua blue M1 controller handle still sticks in my mind today.
The first day I was told how to test a Redbird windshield wiper I flipped. Am I so stupid??? CI Peter
What's a little hand jive among friends? :)
Was there ever a proposal to connect the D train to the Dyre avenue line via the Dyre express tracks?
It was originally intended that the Concourse line be extended east from its current terminal at 205 St into the area now served by the Dyre Ave line. After the city purchased the NYW&B ROW and converted it to a subway line to serve this same area in 1941, plans to extend the Concourse line were dropped.
-- Ed Sachs
Even to Co-op City.
At the time there was no Co-op City. But it probably would have gone near there.
I'm hoping for lightrail to City Island.
The Dyre line was intended for IND service after 1941, only has part of the original 1950s Second Ave. line. When it became obvious by the mid-1950s that wasn't going to happen, NYCTA officially made the Dyre line part of the IRT.
North of 57th street on Broadway line, there is a short straight-way that was said to be a planned extension to Morningside Heights, what hindered this from happening?
One word: Hylan.
I figured that.
where's Morningside Heights?
Doesn't look like I know NY as much as think I do.
The area around Columbia University - 116th St. and Broadway.
The proposed BMT extension northward would have gone all the way to Washington Heights, but the IND 8th Ave. Line basically took over that route when it was built.
oh I see: you know what they should do if they can, judging on priority; if the 2nd Ave subway plans go to waste again, they should extend those tracks from 57th meant to go to Morningside Heights and connect them to the CPW line somewhere between 59th and 72nd. Either connect to them to the express or the local tracks or both if possible. There's plenty of space to do it. If you connect them right in the middle of the two stops, there is six blocks on either side to the nearest station.
if the 2nd Ave subway plans go to waste again, they should extend those tracks from 57th meant to go to Morningside Heights and connect them to the CPW line somewhere between 59th and 72nd.
WHY? The Broadway BMT is no more than two long blocks from the IND for the bulk of its run through Manhattan. Why BOTHER?
Manifest Destiny.
Well, look at 63rd St as compared w/ 60th and 53rd Sts. There are 8th Ave/Bway/6th Ave lines going through these three tubes and they are never more than 2 long blocks from each other throughout Manhattan either.
The 63rd St tube increased East River carrying capacity. What is your 57th-CPW connection going to do?
Would the BMT have built the concourse line in the Bronx or the Queens Boulevard line?
#3 West End Jeff
Interestingly enough, the approach track before the Manhattan Bridge at Dekalb avenue required older cars such as R-1's and R-9's to accelerate out of the station at high speeds. A red light at the end of the platform was the signal. The reason for this was that the cars featured a one motor/trailer truck configuration. If a train left Dekalb too slow, the cars would get dead motor. However, the Triplexes and Standards were great on grades, they could climb the Prarie Mountains with no problem. Just how steep of a grade is the bridge approach?
The one at Canal Street on the Q/W platformt is 4 1/2% I got this from a Signal line up book that was giving out before the switch over.
Robert
R1s - R9s had one motor per axle. None of this equipment ever was in a trailer format, all cars were powered.
Most Standards were powered as well. A "BX" notation on the front end of a three car lash-up would indicate that the middle car was a motorless trailer. Otherwise, the "AB's" were fully powered.
The grade to the Manhattan Bridge is nothing. The incline from the 4th Avenue BMT to the West End Portal is at least 5%, if not more, and the grade from the 60th Street BMT tunnel to the El complex at Queensboro Plaza must be at least as severe.
Today, there are timers before the North Side/South Side converge just past the old Myrtle station. Before the re-build in the mid-50s, it had a 'blue' signal light element to indicate which divulging track the line up was for.
Maybe Sea Beach Fred or Karl M could provide more insight, since this was before my time :)
Actually, many of the R1's were unpowered and you typically had two cars with cutout motors per consist back in 1970/71 ... you WRAPPED it when you pulled out of DeKalb and hoped for the best. On a rainy day, you'd wonder if you'd make it to the top of the bridge and on the way down, you hoped you could stop. Doing the bridge always raised my blood pressure a bit ...
I know the motors must have ground something terrible.
Nah, they were up to the task ... a little long in the tooth, but if you had motors, it was HAPPY DAYS. :)
They were unpowered from the factory or due to some modification in house after they originally entered service on the IND?
Story I heard was that they suffered motor failures and there weren't spare parts for them. So supposedly a number of them were involuntarily converted to trailers so the motors could be removed and used to repair other cars. Eventually, a contractor was found that provided rebuilt motors and many were restored. The 60's and early 70's were dicey times for the R1/9 fleet ... EVERY day on the road was "anything can happen day" ... heh.
The thing that gets me is the R-1/9s had more powerful motors than the BMT standards to begin with - 190 horsepower per motor vs. 140 hp. You'd figure it would be no contest.
But the musical question every first trip was "how many motors *DO* I have?" Last thing you wanted to be a part of was hitting the slides and waiting for a "helper" to come up and push you over the bridge. Never happened to me, but I know it did happen every now and then to others. I always had ENOUGH motors to get across, but sometimes it was a white knuckle ride ...
Never had to say "OK, everybody out and push!", eh?:-)
There were times I wondered and although *I* never ran into it on any of my own runs (which goes to prove that there were motormen with higher pass numbers than *I* had) there WERE some trains that ran out of go juice on the bridge and had to do it "doggie style" with their follower ...
It's a good thing there were enough Brightliners around to do the pushing.
Did that ever happen to the BMT standards? With no BX unit, either?
The Standards on the southern division were before my time. I rode on one only once, on the Canarsie Line in 1968. But I remember the R1/9s huffin' and puffin', ready to plotz any minute, and smoking, I mean literally, particularly a B train of R1s stinking up the Dekalb Av. Sta. on a weekday mid-afternoon. That was the bad side of Chrystie.
My white knuckle ride was the hill going up to Queensboro Plaza years ago when I operated R27/30's and beat up R32's on the old RR line to Astoria. Sometimes you could just feel those motors drop out one by one as you made your way upgrade thru the 60th St. tube. Once you saw daylight, you looked up to heaven and started praying!
I wonder how the BMT standards managed that grade, what with their 140 hp motors.
They struggled too ... I rode a couple here and there over the bridge. Good workout for the brushes. :)
You had to wonder sometimes if the BMT standards would make it to Bedford Ave. on the Canarsie Brooklyn-bound. Typically they would coast downhill through the 14th St. tunnel, then the motorman would reapply power before reaching the lowest point in the tunnel so as to build up a head of steam. The bull and pinion gears would reach G# above middle C (45-50 mph by my estimation), then the gear pitch would slowly start coming down as they labored uphill...G above middle C, F, E, D, middle C....by the time the train reached Bedford Ave., the gears would be a B below middle C. When the motorman cut the power, you could feel the train go "whew!". It was a similar deal on the Manhattan-bound side.
Heh. Upgrades of 20% would always test your motors and breakers. While most people think of straining motors on a river crossing, the northbound on the concourse was as formidable as the Manny B, especially as you came up past 161 ... by 167, the motors were finally starting to pick up again, but it was a white knuckler up the grade as well if you had a few dead cars ...
Bitches piloting 32's had NO idea. Heh.
Heh. Never did that as a run (making sign of the cross) but I heard from some of the guys I worked with that after that run, I wouldn't flinch ever again at the bridge approach ... the Concourse hill northbound to 167th is also a good workout for your motor breakers. :)
Bill: I remember that very well, but I got a different reaction. I said: "Thank God I can now get off this rotten 4th Avenue Local train at Queens Plaza. Where the train started its uphill climb towards QP you could look towards your left and see my apartment. It was always a bummer on the way home from somewhere because I had to get off the Sea Beach at 42nd Street and transfer to the #2 train for a five stop ride. It was the longest and crappiest ride of all. I hated the 4th Avenue Local.
The BMT standards had "maximum traction" trucks, with one motor on each truck. In other words, each truck had one powered axle and one unpowered axle. IIRC the Triplexes had four motors, two on each of the inner trucks; i. e., the trucks beneath the articulating junctions.
The BMT standards had "maximum traction" trucks, with one motor on each truck. In other words, each truck had one powered axle and one unpowered axle.
"Maximum traction" trucks also have large wheels on the powered axle and small wheels on the unpowered axle - which the BMT standards did not have. The standards were simply an A1-1A configuration (or was it a 1A-A1?) rather than a B-B.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought their powered axles had 34" wheels and the unpowered ones, 31" wheels. Of course, I could be wrong, in which case I stand corrected.
Jamaica Center has extra track beyond the station for a planned extension of the E to Springfield Gardens via the LIRR ROW. The extra track is currently being used to lay-up trains. If done, what branch of the LIRR will the subway operate over?
MTA kept mentioning using that extention, but i will believe it when i see the work being done. lol
The Montauk Branch, ie the first branch immediately east of Jamaica Station.
:-) Andrew
I should have known, R-44 test track in the 70's.
The R44 made its speed runs on the track between Woodside and Jamaica.
Correction - the first branch east of Jamaica is the Atlantic - goes through Locust Manor and Laurelton.
The proposal to run NYC subways on the LIRR Atlantic Branch dates from the 1968 MTA Program for Action - but that proposal is now dead. It won't happen. One idea behind the proposal was to eliminate two fare zones. Metrocard has done that already.
I think it is meant for the Montauk Branch as MisterK said, but I think it should just have its own ROW along Melville Blvd to the Nassau border.
Merrick Blvd not Melville Blvd
Otherwise it would be a whale of a train... :0)
"Merrick Blvd not Melville Blvd "
Of course, that would have solved the "LIRR to Melville" issue going on in another thread...
The J and Z should run along Jamaica avenue after Broadway Junction in stead of Fulton street. The line is slow enough, the turns at Cresent street make it even slower. Jamaica avenue is a wider street that will facilitate center track peak express service. The el on Fulton street should be relocated on Jamaica avenue. Just a suggestion, does anyone think this would be better service on the J/Z train service?
the only reason the J is slow because of all its curves and it has too many timers. it running down fulton has nothing to do with the speed of it. Besides it hits better speed on fulton then on jamaica avenue
If it didn't run on Fulton, but stayed on Jamaica, two of those slow curves would be eliminated. But then you would probably add a new tight curve to align it with Broadway Junction.
do the PATH Signals above ground mean the same as the signals below ground? I notice above ground the signals seem to look like colour light NORAC signals. Anyways like i saw yellow over yellow. do u think that means rules 208 speed control like it means underground? or do u think it means approach slow like NORAC 284?
PATH does not use NORAC signals anywhere on its system. There is an Nycsubway.org page on them at: http://www.nycsubway.org/us/path/signals/
Twoo weeks before 9/11, on the 1st day of the new Newark Subway cars, I went over there to chack them out. (My last time in the WTC complex. Who would ever know...). I decided to compare our signals and controllers to theirs. The controllers seem to be identical to our older metal SMEE controls, and the handles were the same as well. The first signal I see on the WTC platform is a yellow over yellow homeball (they call them "interlocking signals"). I was surpised, hearing that PATH was similar to the old IRT, which had no yellow over yellow. Then, after we left, I began seeing the other signals mentioned. Further out in the high speed outdoor section, I did see what looked like NORAC (standard railroad) signals on overhead supports.
The yelow over yellow I mentioned was not the one in rule 208 on one head. (I did see those too, and realized they were the two-shot timers like our yellow over "S"). The one an the WTC platform and a couple of other places was two complete heads with the third single light at the bottom, and it governed the switch leaving the station. I also think there were some two-red-on-one-head one shot timers in the tunnel that didn't have white. You didn't have to stop for them, as in rule 215, but approached them like the white-less timers in the 14th St. tunnel.
My guess, they must be in the process of changing the signals, like the IRT is.
PATH is not changing anything. The railroad quality hi-signals out on the main line display PATH aspects. Y/Y simply indicates that the following signal is red due to a timer, much like the NYC Subway 'S'. There are no 'one shot' style timers. "Homeball" is corrupted street slang term for a Home Signal or an Interlocking Signal.
The PATH Y/Y signals are really single-shot timers. You never
get a green on them.
They go to green when the timer on the signal beyond them runs. A normal block has G--Y--R, a timer block has G--Y/Y--R.
They do? I must not have been paying attention. All of the
time-control signals I saw behaved like single-shots. They
were approached red and cleared to Y/Y. I never saw a green.
If the signal is last in the line of timers it will clear to green. It also depends on how the engineer runs the line. I have seen them run right up on the red ones, I have also seen them slow up and have the Y/Y clear to green before they pass it. The best examples are thr hi-speed ones on the 33rd St. line. They are set for like 50 mph and the usually clear to green well advance of a train.
OK, well, you are _Jersey_ mike, and I ride the PATH maybe
once per year on average, so I'll trust your observations.
I probably don't ride it much more than you do, but I was there last Wenesday and was making careful note of the signals from the railfan view. I am pretty sure that PATH timed signals work like SEPTA timed signals, ie two shot, but displaying G---Speed Control---Red, where the signal at Speed Control can go to Green once the timer runs. We can both agree that the timed signal is the one held at red.
Please explain why you refer to the term Homeball as currupted street slang. Are you aware of the origin of the term, and if so please elaborate.
Thanks
The slang "ball" to mean "signal" is said to date back to mid-19th
century British signalling practices in which a colored ball was
raised on a flagpole as a form of manual block signal. This predated
semaphores and of course electric light signals.
A "Home" signal also dates back to the early days of control
towers. The Home signal is displayed at the entrance to
an interlocking. This led to the development of the Distant
signal placed in approach to the interlocking to warn the engineer
of the upcoming home signal, especially if it were set to danger.
In later years, with the advent of automatic block signals, "home
signal", "interlocking signal", and "controlled signal" became
nearly synonymous in common usage, although there are subtle
differences from a signal geek standpoint.
Homeball can also refer to the TD who took home the ball.
No, that'd be a BUTTERball ... sorry, couldn't resist. Slow night. :)
Thanks Jeff, thats the same understanding I have of the the term Homeball. I was just wondering why someone like JM would refer to it as anything other that legitimate Railroad slang.
Thanks
I only hear it as subway (specifically NYC Subway) slang. On railroads I either hear "home" or "home signal" or the engineer just refering to the name of the interlocking.
It is the amalgamation of "high ball" with "home signal". Back in the days of ball signals all of them (allowing for rare exception) were home signals (they needed a signalman on site to operate them). As we all know a "high ball" meant clear. When lever operated semaphores came about you could now allow for remote signal installations. A "home" signal showing stop or go and a "distant" signal showing caution or clear. "Home ball" is a term brought about by people too rushed to say "Home" or "Interlocking" (or even "absolute") signal. Distants can also be known as "approach" signals and those out in ABS territory are "automatic", "block" or "permissive" signals.
homeball is not corrupted. i have never heard any RAILROAD refrain from using it. i have heard the following railroads say it
SUBWAY
LIRR
NJ TRANSIT
PATH
AMTRAK
SEPTA (I KNOW SOMEONE)
CTA CHICAGO(i know someone)
METRO NORTH COMMUTER RAILROAD
ITS A RAILROAD TERM SO GET DA HELL OVER IT AND LEAVE IT ALONE
The yellow over yellow I saw at WTC was an interlocking signal, not an automatic timer. Rule 214 "Proceed at Restricted Speed" (red/lunar white) would be the one shot timers. But I thought I did see some in the tubes without the lunar white, and they were approached expecting to clear.
First, a Rule 214 restricting has absolutely NOTHING to do with timers. On railroads, lunar white is synonomous with a "Restricting" aspect and Restricting is equivalent to a "Call-on" on the NYC Subway. Look at the PATH signal page and how a Rule 214 (NORAC Rule 290) signal is used.
Most interlocking signals display two pieces of information, track condition and turnout consition. The Y/Y on an interlocking signal means that on the selected route, you have a speed control block.
1. So those automatics in rule 214 have call-ons? I guess that would translate to an AK (authorization to key by), and/or a circle K.
2. Now the Y/Y interlocking I saw did not have any reds illuminated. (for the non-selected route) This signal truly looked exactly like our B-div. "proceed on diverging route expecting to stop at next signal" indication.
The only automatic in the illustration is the one denoted by the letter "K", and can only be passed at "Stop" with permission under Rule #254. All of the others are types of interlockings displaying PATH's version of a "call-on".(R/R/LW)
Departing WTC, all switches were trailing point,so there was no choice of route. The bottom portion of the signal was used to display the bottom yellow or "timing" indication.
I also thought it had an X on the bottom head. I guess there's no way to check it out now, but I did remember some others like that.
In NYC, even if it's a trailing point and there's no choice of route, we must have a home signal protecting it, and also any other place where they want to make sure a train can't key by. Perhaps the yellow over yellow is a special lineup for when there is no route choice. (In NY, it's bottom green except for a few places where the track you're on swings over and it's a bottom yellow). Is just didn't seem to be a timer.
Departing WTC, timed interlocking signals started at the end of the platforms and ended when the original tunnel section was reached. Each protected a trailing point switch and enforced the posted 12 MPH speed limit thru the curve as the tracks merged; they displayed a Y/Y or speed control aspect. Since the lower signal head wasn't being used to display a choice of route, PATH used it to display the second yellow or speed control indication.
By definition, automatics do not have "call-on" (type) signals. Also, on PATH, an NYC Subway "call on" aspect is equivalent to a Rule 214 "Restricting" aspect, however any type of signal can display a Restricting while an NYC Subway "call on" aspect is limited to interlocking signals.
Also please note that a Restricting would not necessarily require key-by. An automatic signal or a home signal might display a Restricting to allow permissive operation (like an NYC Subway ST signal). I do not know of any examples of this, but it is a possibility.
You saw a lunar white timer on PATH? I don't think so. You
might have seen a train order aspect, similar to the double white
cat's eyes on the BMT. A time controlled interlocking signal
would display Y/Y/R or R/Y/Y depending on the route.
The train orders are flashing red, on separate heads with only the red, a back-lit white "O" on a black background, and "TO" (or "TO REP" for the repeaters) on the plate.
There's also a flashing yellow (again, alone on a separate head) for the various outdoor employee stops.
The only time I've seen an active lunar white on PATH was entering Hoboken's Track 3 while traveling toward Hoboken from 33rd on tunnel B, which is a very unusual move. It was red-over-red-over-lunar white and we passed it without slowing down.
So I guess that answers the question of whether there is a manual
stop arm release needed for the restricting signal. Thanks Terry.
PATH has two types of signals, "Z" and "X". The Z signals correspond to our automatic with yellow over yellow being a timer or speed control. Their X signals correspond to our homeballs and control an interlock or crossover. These always have oen aspect red like the old IRT. many also have the timer also so you get double yellow over red or vice versa. At Exhange Place heading West a YYR is for trains to Pavonia while RYY is for Newark.
The PATH aspects for those signals are consistent - yellow on top means to the right, while yellow on the bottom means to the left. In the few cases where it is more confusing than that (for example, the 6-lens signal where tunnel A splits to tunnel A and tunnel C) there's a helpful indicator which has "L" and "R" illuminated panels 8-)
u guys are not answering what i am asking. I know the underground rules already. i am talkin about the above ground rules. the ones between journal square and Newark
Above ground uses the same signaling except for the bridges near Journal square.
Would "Z" be the chaining route, like on the IRT? (just a letter on the automatic signal plate beneath the survey number) That would make it convenient if the PATH were ever ingrained into the subway, because it would be like an extension of the IRT route chains. Now their survey numbers are something else altogether. I couldn't figure out how they progressed (seemed like faster than in 100's of feet.
I do not know but their signals are nunbered such as LA16X, LB16X, Z100, etc.
LA16X and LB16X are the levers on the US&S interlocking machine that control said signal. US&S wires its switches and signals in pairs. If you think of a typical main line crossover interlocking w/ 4 entrance/exits, clearing one signal could naturally always mandate that its "twin" on the same track, but facing the other direction, would have to be at stop. The pair of signals would be named #L and #R for Left and Right. On the US&S machine you could clear the left signal, the right signal or neither. When you get an odd numbered signal arrangement (like a 'Y' junction) you would have 2 left signals and 1 right signal (or vice versa). The left signals could be designated #LA and #LB and would still be controled by the single # lever. However, interlocking w/ the position of the switch would determine with of the two (A or B) actually cleared.
The Z simply means it is an automatic signal with key-by
possible similar to most NYCT automatics.
The signal numbers are just sequential, divided odd/even by direction. For example, 1xx evens are heading toward NJ from midtown. Where signals have been added, you'll get a suffix on the number plate, like "106A", "106B", etc.
The footage numbers (in black-on-orange reflective decals, normally attached to the blue emergency standpipe) are indeed 100's. I checked a bunch of them against the original drawings and they match. The part that can be confusing is that they don't all start from the same reference point.
As many are aware, the Williamsburg Bridge is plagued with probelms and is almost always undergoing construction and repairs. The lines of the J, M and Z are better off sent through a river tunnel instead.
The original el went to Kent avenue prior to 1909 bridge traffic. That section should be rebuilt, but this time a river tunnel be constructed to that portion of el. Trains travel faster through river tunnels than over bridges. Service on the Nassau street line will be considerablely faster to/from Manhattan during rush hours.
Bride train traffic can remain or the ROW be equipped to handle automobiles.
While a tunnel would probably provide faster service than is provided over the bridge, it's not likely to happen. Tunnels are expensive, and the amount of ridership on the Broadway-Jamaica/Nassau-Centre Streets Line does not justify the expense.
It should also be noted that in the case of the Williamsburg Bridge, the chief problem was the approaches, not the center span. The approaches have been rebuilt (and the el structure between Marcy Avenue and the bridge has been replaced). Once the rehabilitation project is completed, the bridge should be in pretty good shape for years to come (assuming proper maintenance, of course).
As for Kent Avenue, why put that structure back up? Who would use it?
David
As for Kent Avenue, why put that structure back up? Who would use it?
If the Driggs Ave stop were rebuilt then it would be very handy for dining at Peter Lugers.
Peter Luger's is still remarkable, but bring your own car to go out or home afterwards, for there is no way you can climb the stairs to the Marcy El station after a meal there :)
That was the place for steaks many decades ago and I'm surprised that the place still exists since there have been so many changes in New York over the years. In fact, many people used to eat there before and after Dodger games when the team was based in Brooklyn. That, Junior's and Lundy's were the places to be seen back in 1950's Brooklyn.
What about the bridge towers? I heard they had been bending in towards each other. Plus one of the main cables was supposedly rusted clear through.
$$$$$$$$$.....
The Williamsburg Bridge is coming out of a major overhaul to address problems that occured due to decades of deferred or no maintenance.
The Bridge was opened in 1903. In 1908, El trains were main-lined over the Bridge to a terminal adjacent to today's Essex Street, instead of terminating at Broadway Ferry.
In 1908, El trains were main-lined over the Bridge to a terminal adjacent to today's Essex Street
Did they use the same tracks as the JMZ line? Anything left of the terminal at Essex?
Just the lights past the J/M/Z right of way.......thatsa it
Stuart, RLine86Man
The terminal is largely intact... rails still in the floor, overhead still in place. I haven't been there in a couple of years, but it was visible from the platform the last time I was there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How many tracks are in the terminal? Is it a stub or a loop?
It's a loop terminal... don't remember the number of tracks, probably a half dozen or so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Amtrak officially notified CSX Transportation of its interest in operating passenger service between Louisville KY and Nashville TN. Amtrak made the request of CSXT officials pursuant to the Railway Passenger Service Act. The new service would not be an extention of the existing KY Cardinal service, but would be a connecting train. Louisville Mayor David Armstrong told Business First last month that he has been working with Amtrak officials to extend service to Nashville, reviving the once-popular L&N Railroad line that connected the two cities.
I wonder how long that will last. I seem to recall only a few weeks ago that a citizen's advocacy group had recommended to a House transportaton panel that Amtrak be liquidated by the end of this year. Their recommendation will be officially debated upon in February.
Amtrak Reform Council is anything but a "citizen's advocacy group".
It is unlikely Congress will destroy Amtrak.
R-44 and R-46 cars are forbiddin on the eastern division of the BMT. The reason is, the Williamsburg Bridge trackways are too narrow and the cars may side swipe one another on because of there lengths. Although the line hosted 67' BMT Standards for years. A sign on the wall at Court street on the Manhattan bound N and R platform displays this. In my own opinion, it's shop space at ENY.
It has nothing to do with ENY. I'd like to see an R44, R46, or R68 make it there first, then we can worry about maintaining it.
It's not just the Willy-B. I'm not sure it's the Willy-B at all. It's several sharp curves along the lines. The (J)(Z) have that famous s-curve between Crescent Street and 75th St/Eldert Lane. The (L) has sharp curves from Lorimer St through Morgan St. The (M) might be able to do 75 foot, but I beleive it is possible for the trains to scrape each other coming into Metropolitan Ave.
:-) Andrew
It's alll about PLATFORM LENGTHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hmmm. I see.
*straightens shirt and tie out* Sorry....I get carried away sometimes......maybe I should be locked away in the same zoo as Selkirk? :-D *no offense buddy*
Stuart, RLine86Man
You can extend a platform. You can't run a train where it will hit buildings and other trains.
In any case, the trains will sideswipe one another on that infamous "SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS" curve on the Jay/Zee line..
Stuart, RLine86Man
Which is probably the biggest problem they face. Extended platforms on the elevated shouldn't be all that hard if they had the trains to run there.
6 75 foot cars would make 450 feet of train. 8 60 foot cars run currently at 480 feet of train. You could run 6 75 foot car trains and deal with the loss of 30 feet. There's really no point in having the 75 foot cars run on the Eastern Division anyway. The 212 R143s will make many more 60 foot cars available and those could go anywhere. Platforms aren't the main issue.
Shawn.
However, the TA won't recouple R-68's for 6 cars since it took 'em a few months just to get them into the 4 car sets they're in now! And there's already a car shortage on the Bravo division...the R-44's and R-46's are staying where they are now, that's for sure.
Stuart, RLine86Man
What's the "Bravo" division?
:-) Andrew
B---------Bravo
A---------Alpha
C---------if there was one: Charlie
All military phoenetic alphabet designations.
Thanks.
:-) Andrew
Yankee-oscar-uniform *You* alpha-romeo-echo *are* whiskey-echo-lima-charlie-oscar-mike-echo *welcome* :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Phonetic alphabets are fun: Let's see if I remember the whole alphabet:
Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliet, Kilo, Lima, Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform, Victor, Whiskey, X-ray, Yankee, Zulu
IIRC Mary is used for M and Nancy for N.
That's non-military/aviation.....Military/aviation is Mike and November.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yay!!! *lol* Tell him what he wins, Johnny!!!!!!
Johnny: NOTHING! :-D (just kidding)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Actually I believe their technically is a "C" division, the work trains are (I believe called "C" division).
I thought for a while that the "ex-"IND was considered to be the 'C'harlie division
It is called "SUB-DIVISON C"
No matter if they run a single car (okay make it two cars since operating rules you can't run one because it will gap out) 75 footer, if two were in the S curve at the same time passing each other THEY WOULD TOUCH.
[The (J)(Z) have that famous s-curve between Crescent Street and 75th St/Eldert Lane.]
It's actually between the Crescent Street and Cypress Hills stations.
This topic has been brought up many times before. Now I can see why David and others get upset when people repeat things. In any event:
* 75' foot cars are forbidden from the Eastern Division because of clearance issues at Myrtle/Broadway, Cresent Street and possibly a curve from Bowery to Delancey. I doubt it is due to the Williamsburg Bridge, which saw pound-happy Triplexs and AB's for decades.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
Whoa. BMT standards, yes. Triplexes, no. Or very rarely, if that. The Triplexes could not run on the section of the Jamaica line above Fulton St. because their axle weight was too great. They could have run on the Broadway el and the Dual Contracts portion of the Myrtle Ave. line without any problem.
The R16's were also heavy behemoths, and they ran on the Fulton St portion for decades. Were the D types that much heavier? Maybe using them on the Manhattan Bridge wasn't a smart idea.
The R-16s weighed in at roughly 85,000 lbs. They were the heaviest SMEE cars.
The Triplexes tipped the scales in the 206,000-213,000 lb range. By contrast, two BMT standards, the service equivalent of one Triplex, weighed 190,000-198,000 pounds. Not much difference in gross weight, but a big difference in axle loading weight (don't remember the numbers; Subway Cars of the BMT has a comparative list). The Triplexes had an axle weight far greater than any other piece of equipment, and it was for this reason they could not run along the Fulton St. portion. The BMT standards came in under the axle weight limit of that portion, and as a result they could and did run there.
I'll bet the Manhattan Bridge said, "Oh, my aching deck!" every time a Triplex train ran across it. Supposedly, one of the reasons they wound up on the West End late in their careers was to get them off the bridge.
*lmao* And now the DOT's doing non-elective reconstructive "surgery" on the Manny B.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Commuter rail for Atlanta might have been a "done deal" but Governor Roy Barnes cut the $12 million for the project and thus put off $68 million in Federal matching funds.Transportation officials and legislators were tight lipped about the funding cuts last week. House majority leader Rep. Larry Walker(D-Perry) was quoted in one published report as saying the governor still supports the rail line. The omission of rail funding in the budget was yet another blow to the local economy that has suffered a severe loss of jobs over the past several years. The rapid rail line was a selling point in economic development efforts that local officials can no longer confidently use in trying to replace those jobs. Rapid rail service was set to begin in 2005. That startup date is clearly in jeopardy following the latest cutbacks.
Where did you read this? There has been no mention of this in any Atlanta newspaper. Some cities have already recieved funding for areas where their commuter station will be.
It was in today's ERN.
What's the ERN and how can I see it?
I'm not surprised. Georgia's legislature has a lot of other priorities and nobody down there would think twice about axing commuter rail. Probably they think it's a communist plot...
I certainly hope someone got the facts wrong. Because this would be a shame.
I absolutely HATE the Georgia legislature. Every single member can personally go to hell. They are a bunch of selfish assholes controlled by retarded redneck motherfuckers from outside Atlanta. Most of the laws they pass are trivial bullshit to satisfy they're own personal beliefs. They don't listen to their constituants at all. A poll made by the AJC reported that 81% of Atlantans think the legislature is irrelevant, and I believe that. If I didn't like Atlanta, I would have moved out of this state a long time ago. This upcoming election, I'm voting aganist every incumbant I can vote for.
"Every single member can personally go to hell."
How do you know they didn't just come from there?
:0)
I absolutely HATE the Georgia legislature. Every single member can personally go to hell. They are a bunch of selfish [deleted] controlled by retarded redneck [deleted] from outside Atlanta.
Trust me, they're a million times better than the New York legislature.
I think it's the other way around.
No, the elephant party wanks the crank here too. (or is it cranks the wank? Never could get those two straight) ... after all, GEORGIA'S legislature passed a BUDGET LAST YEAR ... 'nuff said. Bottle whizzes for the assembly AND the senate ... not gonna happen ...
don't you like tom murphy?
the man has singlehandedly set the state back 25 years.
Tom Murphy- how old is that asshole? 90? That guy is aganist seatbelt use in trucks becuase HE'S claustrophobic. Hopefully, he'll die in a wreck in his pickup truck. I'll be happy when he is dead.
(I absolutely HATE the Georgia legislature. Every single member can personally go to hell. They are a bunch of selfish assholes...This upcoming election, I'm voting aganist every incumbant I can vote for.)
I thought it was just New York's legislature. Look at the bright side; at least you can vote against the incumbents. Under New York State Law, it is (de facto) illegal to run against incumbents, and there is generally only one name on the ballot.
"there is generally only one name on the ballot"
Only true in overwhelmingly Democratic or Republican districts, in which case the primary is the actual election.
In most of the suburbs, in the upstate cities, and even in middle class areas of NYC, there are 2 or more names on the November ballot.
In upsatte rural areas there is usually even a Democrat, though with no funding and no chance.
The omission of rail funding in the budget was yet another blow to the local economy that has suffered a severe loss of jobs over the past several years. The rapid rail line was a selling point in economic development efforts that local officials can no longer confidently use in trying to replace those jobs.
"Severe loss of jobs" in Georgia? What does that mean, one person got laid off.
There's a simple reason for this: A number of people who wanted to visit Macon, GA instead went to Knoxville, TN.
See my other post regarding Amtrak.
The article posted is competely false. Today's paper said that over $250 million was already set for the commuter rail line. The ERN is full of it.
The ERN is full of it.
So what else is new????
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The AFL-CIO released the following statement in response to the Amtrak Reform Council's plans for Amtrak's future:
The Amtrak Reform Council (ARC) has "acted in an arbitrary and capricious manner and contrary to law," eleven AFL-CIO rail unions representing the vast majority of workers in the passenger and freight rail industry today charged in a suit filed in federal district court. The effort, coordinated by the Rail Labor Division (RLD) of the Transportation Trades Department, AFL-CIO (TTD), seeks an injunction to bar the ARC from filing an unlawful report to Congress that will inappropriately call for Amtrak's break-up in defiance of the ARC's explicit statutory mandate.
"Instead of providing an objective assessment of Amtrak's operations and finances as Congress intended, the ARC has long pursued an ideological agenda to dismember and then sell-off Amtrak to private interests," said RLD Chair Mark Filipovic. "We've long known that the ARC is a rogue group wasting taxpayers' dollars to achieve a result Americans do not want. But in the last few months the ARC has taken its self-appointed missionary zeal to new, and illegal, extremes."
And....
"Congress has for good reason repeatedly voted to curb the funding and the work of the ARC," said Sonny Hall, president of the TTD, the RLD's parent organization. "But by flaunting the law, the ARC keeps muddying up what should be a healthy national debate about passenger rail in this country. The courts can now complete the job that Congress started - to reign in the ARC and stop it from ignoring its congressional mandate."
The Nassau street line is undergoing reconstruction. The east side platforms and trackways at Canal and Bowery streets, north of Chambers street, will be abaondoned while the west side tracks be used for north/south thru service. It has been said that the abandoned east side tracks will be used by non-revenue trains only. Construction has progressed sense last summer. The Nassau street express tracks were obsolete anyway. The moves on them were pre-Chrystie street. The new alignment should provide better sevice on the J,M and Z lines. I hope that Chambers street becomes a Transit Museum annex.
It will improve service, but the unused tracks could also become part of the new Second Avenue subway service, if an alignment through the BMT is selected.
Those aren't express tracks. They dead-end in the station at Canal. Always have.
They were last used in revenue service in 1994, IIRC, when the weekend J was extended from Canal to Chambers. They are still occasionally used for GO's on the J, including one this very weekend.
Yeah, after their scheduled general overhaul, R-68's are slated to operate on the Smith-9th street crosstown and Queens line. My guess is a new 6-car configuration be used. The G will be a smoother, faster running line after the cars recieve A/C traction and LED side signs.
Huh?
a) What general overhaul? NYCT doesn't do general overhauls anymore -- hasn't in 10 years.
b) By whose decree are R-68s "slated" to operate on the G? That was one option considered during the development of car assignments related to the start of V service, but as we all know it didn't happen.
c) The R-68s are in 4-car sets, except for 9 cars that are for the exclusive use of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. Reconfiguring some cars into 6-car sets would entail an expense -- not that the thought of doing it should be rejected out-of-hand, but some careful consideration would have to be done before determining whether or not to do it.
d) Who said anything about R-68s getting AC propulsion and LED side signs?
David
Wishful thinking?
Not to say that 6 75ft cars are too long for the limit on OPTO.
First of all, there is no "Smith Street Subway". It is called the Crosstown Line.
Secondly, there is no planned GOH for the R68/R68A cars. They aren't even 15 years old.
Thirdly, they are all in 4 car sets. Do you plan on redoing all the sets?
Laslty, LED's on the NYC subway are a horrible idea, as long as they try to cram all that info on them. LED's can't show that the train is going to LONG ISLAND CITY, to the COURT SQUARE station in paticular, on the CROSSTOWN LINE, all at once. Take the F for a second example. How do you show CONEY ISLAND, STILLWELL AVENUE, QUEENS BOULEVARD EXPRESS, VIA 63RD STREET, and 6TH AVENUE/CULVER LOCAL simultaneously?
Rolls rule, end of story.
not in my opinion, any sign that can display my neighborhood is okay by me, seen it myself [ V to Church Ave- 6av/53st LCL- Kensington/Brklyn
Rolls rule, end of story.
Agreed.
:-) Andrew
Smith Street refers to the portion of IND below Jay to the viaduct. It's also been called South Brooklyn Line.
The R68 class entered service in 1986. They are 16 years old.
LED's and LCD's are WORSE than horrible. The 32 GOH is a prime example, with those unreadable bulkhead route bullets.
[The 32 GOH is a prime example, with those unreadable bulkhead route bullets.]
Those are flipdot signs, not LED's or LCD's.
Still unreadable, flip-dot, LED or LCD.
GOH was intended to bring the system's rolling stock up to snuff after years and years of deferred maintenance. As long as the fleet is maintained the way it is now, GOH won't be necessary.
First of all, there is no "Smith Street Subway". It is called the Crosstown Line.
No, the Crosstown line, as such, ends at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. What do you call the line covered by the F (and the G, in part) from Jay through to the BMT Culver line connection? I don't think it has an official name, but I've seen it called the Smith Street line in places.
Secondly, there is no planned GOH for the R68/R68A cars. They aren't even 15 years old.
Agreed.
Thirdly, they are all in 4 car sets. Do you plan on redoing all the sets?
The G now runs four-car trains. Of course, that may change when the R-143 order comes in.
Laslty, LED's on the NYC subway are a horrible idea, as long as they try to cram all that info on them. LED's can't show that the train is going to LONG ISLAND CITY, to the COURT SQUARE station in paticular, on the CROSSTOWN LINE, all at once. Take the F for a second example. How do you show CONEY ISLAND, STILLWELL AVENUE, QUEENS BOULEVARD EXPRESS, VIA 63RD STREET, and 6TH AVENUE/CULVER LOCAL simultaneously?
Rolls rule, end of story.
Agreed. I had to confirm to a confused woman that the V train she had just boarded ran along 6th Avenue, not 2nd Avenue. Compare the detailed information that appeared on the rollsigns on buses to what appears now -- and the flipdot technology has improved immensely since 1981.
Another name for the line is the "Prospect Park" line.
David
It is also often considered part of the Culver Line. Also, on the little red signs that hang from the ceiling at the ends of the underground platforms (you know the ones I mean), it says "6th Avenue Line" (although the ones on the Fulton Line say "Eighth Avenue Line", so that may be moot).
- Lyle Goldman
I call the entire thing the "Culver Line", since seperating the IND and BMT portions of the route today is pointless.
I agree. It's just called the Culver Line....no IND OR BMT or even IRT (wait a sec?!...it wasn't part of the IRT!!) Uhh....strike that....
Stuart, RLine86Man
> I call the entire thing the "Culver Line"
So do I.
- Lyle Goldman
LED's on the NYC subway are a horrible idea, as long as they try to cram all that info on them. LED's can't show that the train is going to LONG ISLAND CITY, to the COURT SQUARE station in paticular, on the CROSSTOWN LINE, all at once.
Yes they can. There is nothing regarding LED technology that prevents them from having two lines of text, or from having a font the size of a rollsign. Besides, a rollsign won't display all of that anyway. All of the newer rollsigns show only the origin and destination. The origin is a useless fact.
How do you show CONEY ISLAND, STILLWELL AVENUE, QUEENS BOULEVARD EXPRESS, VIA 63RD STREET, and 6TH AVENUE/CULVER LOCAL simultaneously?
How do you show all that with a rollsign? Not even the R-32/38 can. The D was Concourse-6th Avenue/Brighton on the R-32, there was no mention of express or local.
Also, Showing that the train goes to Long Island City/Court Square or Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue is superfluous. The only other subway station along Stillwell Avenue is called Bay 50th Street, so there's no need for differentiation. Or one can call it Coney Island because that's more recognizable to more people
Also, there are NO trains that use LED side signs. The only LEDs used are on the R-142/43 bulkheads and interior signs. What you're thinking of is LCD.
I think the use of LED displays has great advantages. All signs can be reset at the touch of a button, trains going in different directions can be differiented, and more information can be displayed than a roll shign could.
The signs on the R44/46 are obsolete. All of the current problems associated with them could be solved by upgrades.
Wouldn't that require some kind of equipment (other than the actual signs themselves) upgrade? I.E.: The actual display's control panel...the main computer control's the displays on the 142's and 143's.
Stuart, RLine86Man
A small keypad with a small one or two line display like on a bus is sufficient. As for communicating with the signs, if they don't want to add extra wires, the PA system can be used. Even if the speakers don't have filters installed so you wouldn't hear the signals, the signs need only be changed at terminals so it wouldn't be a problem.
I'll leave the VERY technical details to the MTA's computer engineering teams................I was just mentioning the R-142 because I saw a picture (on here) of the T/O's computer panel.
Stuart, RLine86Man
IRT, where are you getting this information???
From his imagination :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
GOH on a car that has over 100,000 MDBF?? don't think so.
6 Cars on G that is too long for OPTO service that is limited to train length of 300'.
Try to dream somthing else up.
I can't believe the current 4 car setup will continue, at least during weekdays. When the cars become available, 6 car trains here are a must, whatever type of car they decide on (R46, R68).
Yeah, after their scheduled general overhaul, R-68's are slated to operate on the Smith-9th street crosstown and Queens line. My guess is a new 6-car configuration be used. The G will be a smoother, faster running line after the cars recieve A/C traction and LED side signs.
The R68 will not ever receive the GOH that cars in the 1980's got. There's no need to, as the R68's have been well maintained since they were new. On top of that, the R68 is not equipped to have electronic side signs installed (the R44/46 had this contingency built in when they were constructed, but was never implimented). And the R68's have been permanently coupled into 4 car sets, making 6 car trains impossible without a lot of mechanical work done to restore a number of them to single units (Train Dude could give more specific info on this).
Nothing is forever, except taxes and death, unless you are a republican.
avid
Monaco does not have taxes for residents, well connected corporate executives don't pay taxes as we've learned, and of course death is evitable, there is no reason why a multi-cellular organism cannot exist forever. Of course, you'll still have losers who believe in the afterlife and want to die.
the R44/46 had this contingency built in when they were constructed, but was never implimented
Yes it was. Before GOH, the R-44/46 had automatically rolled signs.
I remember these signs as manually rolled only.
Same here.
179 Street FFFFFFF
Jamaica FF
FFFF
Coney Island FF
Brooklyn FF
(:-D)
(Sorry if that "F" doesn't come out like I hoped it would)
Seriously, Interborough, where did you get all this information, and what makes you so sure it's accurate?
- Lyle Goldman
Did you copy this out of the New York Post?
nah.....
The national Inquirer
Maybe he got it from the Weekly World News. Or the Globe. Or the Examiner. Or the Sun. Or whoever those magazines get their information from. Those magazines have lousy reputations for accuracy. Boy, do they stink!
- Lyle Goldman
Livonia avenue and Junius street are close, not even a full block apart. Why shouldn't there be a transfer at those stations, it would equalize morning congestion on the L and 3 lines considerablely.
The maintenance of the passageway, which would have to be, undoubtedly, elevated, I guess....
I was making that transfer one night ("in the middle of the night", to quote one of my favorite songs...)......I wouldn't recommend it *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
C'mon, the neighborhood can't be that bad.
can't be that bad???
It's East New York....
That neighborhood has been bad since the turn of the century.
Some of the highlights of that general area:
Robbers and bandits....1890's-1910
Murder Incorporated....1930's-1940's
Crack gangs-1980's-1990's
those are just a few highlights
*L*
Nobody's bothered me. I'm still alive. The xfer was an idea that wouldn't have hurt, sense both lines are in end Brooklyn.
"... an idea that wouldn't have hurt...."
If you look at a map it's a good idea. But if you went over there, walked around and encountered some of the people, you might think otherwise.
It must be the projects.
I was thinking of the people over there.
What about the people over there? I live over there. I used the Livonia stop every day. Im a decent human being. Please explain.........
COme On SUB BUS we Know you hang with the Crack Gangs,Homeless Larry ,Toothless Sally,And you Right in the Middle of the Latin KIng ,
Bloods Drug WAR.
Do I know you?????
Hey Union Square, I heard SubBus buys his crack from SelkirkTMO.
(Sorry, Mike I HAD to bust on 'ya....)
LOL!!!!
No no no ... he bought QUACK from me last trip. :)
So, now he's a Quack?! I never knew SubBus was also an MD!
;-D
LOL!
No no no no ... it's a case of subduction ... smoking quack! :)
During the day there's not a problem. But I wouldn't recommend walking through that passageway between midnight and 5 am. (but that would apply to most anywhere in the city as well).
BMTman
how old are you may i ask?
Gotta give the area some credit: ENY made a frontpage feature article in the City section of the New York Times last year for the incredible turn-around in the condition of the neighborhood.
Since the beginning of the 90's crime there has dropped to the highest rates in the city and alot of new 'suburban-style' single-family dwellings have gone up alone Hinsdale Avenue and other streets due to the efforts of local church and political organizations.
Even Flatbush is actually in WORSE shape then East New York (and this is coming from a Flatbush 'born 'n bred' guy).
BMTman
Yeah, but I heard Flatbush improved greatly once you moved out....8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, well y'know how it is....same as when you left New Joisey: the place now SMELLS alot better....
Piece (of pie),
BMTman
I've been in that area enough, and I've never had a problem. Only once was I really frightened, when I saw a shady, mustachioed character in a green Chrysler 300... ;)
Ugh! What a loooow blow....
;-D
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........I was turnin' my back ("checking my '6' [forgive the pun :-D]) like every 10 seconds to see if I was being followed......if I'm in a strange 'hood like that, I do that QUITE often...and the fact that it was tooooooooooo quiet (not even any cars!!!) made me even more on edge. If it wasn't for the fact that I was escorting a date home, I wouldn't have BEEN there in the first place!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
You should have felt protected if your friend lives in Brownsville.
Nah, she lives in Canarsie.....but it was a pain in the arse to get from Bay Ridge to there at like 2 AM, so I devised another plan of attack.......but it involved using this "non-existant" transfer
Stuart, RLine86Man
Interesting.
R to 4@Atlantic Ave. (and at that time, it runs all the way to New Lots) to (using that....whatever it is) L to Rockaway Pkwy.
Yo Man B6 BUS GOES ALL THE WAY ACROOS AND IS MUCH SAFER.
at 2 AM in da mornin', it's every hour (I took it back to Bay Ridge after dropping my girl off)
I would have done R to Lawrence, A to Broadway Junction, L to RP.
However, there was a GO prohibiting the R down to 36th as a shuttle..I forgot to mention that I got the N there to Atlantic/Pacific, so I decided to take the 4 towards New Lots since my girl was in a bit of a scare about taking the trains that late.
Keep in mind, there is no way to transfer (free or with unlimited metrocard) from the IRT #4 and the BMT L.
Keep in mind, there is no way to transfer (free or with unlimited metrocard) from the IRT #4 and the BMT L.
Union Square?
Like the subject line says Livornia Ave L 3-Junius St.
There certainly is, with unlimited MetroCard. I did it a few weeks ago (well, 1 to L).
Hey, ever thought of hitching a ride with NY&A at 65th Street in Bay Ridge? They run up alongside the Canarsie Line over by New Lots & Livonia stations....and ya wouldn't have ta whip out your MetroCard for them either...LOL!
actually, no, I didn't think of dat............ *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
"C'mon, the neighborhood can't be that bad."
Have you been over there?
On foot, bike and I'm still alive.
You couldn't get your bike from Livonia across the overpass. The exit wheel on the platform wouldn't let you.
I mean just pleasure riding in the street.
If you got off at Livonia/L and you wanted to get across the LIRR to Julius, you would have to take the overpass. Livonia Ave does NOT go across the LIRR.
An IRT conductor I once walked with had his motorman down the El from New Lots to Livonia yard when they heard a shout from inside the park under the curve. A shout to drop the wallets down and guns pointing up. I don't know if that neighborhood is bad but it was fu#%ed up at one time. In Pitkin Yard, we still use taxis to shuttle crews to and from Euclid Avenue. That neighborhood isn't as bad as it used to be but the taxi is better than crossing North Conduit Blvd. I was assaulted only once in 16 years, on the A line by a drunk at Lefferts Blvd. Crime can happen ANYWHERE.
We also visited this topic recently, too. Check for a thread I started called Metrocard Transfers.
This is well on its way to becoming a FAQ itself!
There is a connecting overpass outside of fare control. It's useful for pedestrians crossing over traffic, so it can't be moved entirely inside fare control, and it's too narrow to divide in half. Rebuilding it wider would cost too much, given the fairly small number of commuters it would benefit.
Others have already mentioned the safety concerns. It seemed alright to me during the day, but I can see as how someone late at night juggling shopping bags and Metrocards might see it differently.
I tried that transfer in 1963 - and was pretty uncomfortable about the neighborhood even back then, in the daytime. It was more the absence of people rather than the presence of unsavory types that made me nervous.
That's why I was so nervous just going a block on a Saturday night/Sunday morning at 0200 with a girl........not that I'm a "fraidy kat", but I'd just like to get home in ONE piece!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
hey NB its seven from the Jinx meeting,. Still interested in some UE? Give me an email (the email site provides is correct) I'll fill you in with more details
The 7 is next in line to test the new computerized automated train operating system currently being inaugurated on the 14 street local. The new system will use specailly manuafactured R-142 cars. When and how soon this will happen is not yet determined. My guess is after the L line is successful with operation of the new technology. And when the R-62's are worn out.
So where are these specially manufactured R142 cars coming from???? High track at 239th is still occupied by Bombardier...you now know about the explosion and much more. Used tread brake shoes anyone? CI Peter
Used tread brake shoes my AS#. We are going on a fishing trip to Delaware and will sell our plys back to the TA. I remember when the TA bought back the prewars from Naporano's during the Rockwell fiasco. Speaking of replacement trucks, my putin of R44s had two cars with replacement Alstom Trucks, 5247/5337. The two A cars had the General Steels. Nothing like "cracking" a good joke.
> the new computerized automated train operating system currently being inaugurated on the 14 street local.
Is CBTC being used already?
- Lyle Goldman
My guess is after the L line is successful with operation of the new technology.
Of course, it will be successful. The TA has not established any criteria for measuring sucess or failure. The success will be that the TA has successfully spent several hundred million dollars on a new system.
no not of course. anything human built can and will fail eventually. there is no guarantees in anything in this life. they may have done it to the L maybe, but it will be a ETERNITY before they do that to the whole system. Not to mention it costs too much. CBTC for MTA is not on their priority lists. the day i see every single subway train without motormen physically operating, i will either be at least old age or dead so.
What caught my eye is 'specially manufactured R142s.' Doubt it...the TA has had it all with Bombardier and the whole fiasco. Too many TTs to begin ops on another line. CI Peter
Communications Based Train Control in itself is NOT Automated Train Operation (ATO). It is a "moving block" signal system, whereby aspect information is communicated to the train's cab by radio, instead of operators observing fixed signals. With the CBTC installation to be tested on the L and 7, the trains will not "drive themselves" as on WMATA and BART.
I think you are confusing cab signalling with CBTC.
In CBTC, each train has an independent means of knowing its location. Each train communicates its position to a central computer in a timely manner. Each train's location is determined by wayside equipment (usually track circuits) for non-CBTC systems.
The central commputer decides what each train's instructions should be. It can use a moving or fixed block algorithm. It could use wayside signals or cab signals to display these instructions.
To be sure, every CBTC system needs an additional conventional block system to permit trains that without position sensing equipment to operate in its territory. It also needs track circuits to protect interlockings.
A proposal of the Franklin avenue shuttle to Queensboro Plaza was planned. The line would have used the 2nd avenue el trackways.
Was there ever a plan or proposal to extend the Franklin avenue shuttle to Greenpoint or Queens?
I don't know. What would it have really done that the (G) isn't already doing?
:-) Andrew
It would have been outside.
I believe that the BMT had such plans back in the 1920s.
-- Ed Sachs
What else wouold have been good; if the BMT would have left the Lexington ave el connect to the Franklin ave shuttle.
I think later, when TA was trying to figure out what to do with that shuttle stub, one of them was to extend it to the Crosstown line. (That would bring it to Greenpoint too...)
Yep, it would have been 4 tracks and would have tied into Queensboro Plaza.
--Mark
At 168th street there is a sign that say Indepndent Subway on an entry at street level. Are there other places like this on the IRT, BMT and IND?
Not anymore, nope, unless there's a few that are within the station's platform area (i.e.: "EXIT ONLY" old-style signage at City Hall [Broadway] BMT)
Stuart, RLine86Man
I like old signs too.
Go to Chambers St. and in the mezzanine towards the Brooklyn Bridge station, on a column it says "Lexington Ave IRT"
those are the best
I think there are some at GWBT and at Fulton Street. Fulton's may now be gone though.
Personally, for the non-buff, they were probably confusing. The average NYer will not tell you to take the IRT to 59th Street because the already confused tourist will be even more confused.
Hoyt street 1 and 2 has a sign that forbids passengers from entering the tracks. It dates back to the IRT Bklyn extension.
Now that I think about it, on the Southbound 33rd Street platform ( (6) train ) right near the 24 hour booth/turnstiles, there's a VERY old sign regarding the No Smoking policies....and a "WARNING: DO NOT LEAN OVER PLATFORM EDGE" sign in the middle of the High Street/Brooklyn Bridge (on the tiled wall portion) (A) & (C) train station.
I think the IRT sign dates back to the Dual Contracts days or even before. The IND sign is rare but I have seen them at several IND stations.
The station (my "home" work station) in question dates back to the 1904 IRT line.
14 th street and 6th ave station: Hudson and Manhattan
Those baked on enamel circa 1930's signs were found all over the IND, and were in clear, block lettered type, until recently when the TA decided for whatever reason (ADA?) to fix something that wasn't broken. The new signage appears woefully out of place in art-deco stations.
AT 4th ave there is a sign that Says to BMT Subway as you desend towards the N/R
Also at 14th St on the 6av F/V/1/2/3 line at the Mez level there is a sign that points To IRT Subway To IND Subway
there are several more
The Fulton Street IND still has some provisions at Local stops for pillar mounted signs. Does anyone remember if those signs were painted or postered. I seem to recall one advertisement in raised lettering peeping through the flat colors painted with the pillars.
Which entrance is this? I haven't seen it.
See this post of mine for some other examples.
I seem to recall seeing an "Independent Subway" sign at one of the entrances to 161st Street Station at Yankee Stadium. That was a while back, though.
- Lyle Goldman
imagine if you will (true story) taking the train home one Sunday afternoon from NYP to Trenton (I got off with my mom and brother at Metuchen), and finding that ride very uneventful, at least for a railfan anyway.
The train was a 2:32p departing from NYP through the NEC.
I have made some observations about what went wrong with the trip, but still don't know what the deal was:
1. We board the train and doors close signalling time to leave. Train starts in the wrong direction and travels about 40 feet before stopping. No sign of any mechanical failure or a required action.
2. We do fine through the many switches and the tunnel outside of Penn, but notice that after the tunnel, the train doesn't speed up.
3. I notice only one T/C collecting tickets, a young black woman, and see no one else of the crew.
4. No announcements were made along the entire trip, unless if that car's PA system was broken, but I doubt that.
5. Speed along the entire trip did not reach above 50-60mph.
6. At Linden, someone inadvertantly presses the buzzer RIGHT AFTER the train stopped to serve passengers there. The engineer is confused, starts the train while the doors are open, and some T/C's or passengers are yelling "YO!", as a conductor continually presses the buzzer to stop the engineer.
7. When we got off at Metuchen, the train arrived 7 minutes late. And I observe from the rear of the train that the HEADLIGHTS were ON along with the taillights.
Someone might say "that's crazy", but it was true.
1) Does anybody know what went wrong? or provide a logical explanation? (5301 Fishbowl works for NJT, he might know.)
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Penn station has several turnouts located w/in the length of each platform. The backup more could have been to clear one of these.
The past few mornings, the PIMS sign at Bethesda for Track 2 (towards Shady Grove) has done this when my Grosvenor bound train is entering station:
RED LINE
SHADY GROVE
6 CAR TRAIN
ARRIVING
It then changes to this:
_
RED LINE
GROSVENOR
_
Also, a sign at Friendship Heights read
_
RED LINE
SILVER SPRING
_
even though no train was in the station.
The one in Ballston headed towards New Carrollton wasn't working correctly the other night either. I came down to the platform thinking the next train was 3 minutes away. 5 minutes later it then flashes to the time then flashes to say 9 minutes away. : (
Today, I had a Shady Grove bound train running in manual for some reason. I was paying more attention to the speedometer and the braking of the train than the PIMS as we arrived at Bethesda so I didn't see it. I love when you get the Rohr cars and you are going at 60 MPH and you can barely hear the alarm telling the driver to slow down. Too bad the exit from the portal at Grosvenor is now 35 MPH for some reason, I should ask why tomorrow.
I've noticed the trains slow down considerably coming out of the portal towards Grosvenor. At first I was thinking it was for noise reduction for the residents in that area, but I don't know how much more noise a train coming out of the tunnel is vs. all of the traffic on 355 and the beltway. I loved when the trains would rocket out of the tunnel.
I'm very rarely on the trains for AM peak due to working in Fairfax and living in Arlington and no metro nearby, so I was thoroughly enjoying the ride I took to the doctor today in Silver Spring and noticing a lot of things that I don't normally see when I ride.
I figured it was trackwork but I'm not seeing any signs of it. The southbound trains still go full speed but I prefer the northbound run more. I'll do some investigating.
Yeah, I haven't seen any trackwork around there the few times lately I've been headed that way. Definitely keep us posted if you are able to get any info!!! : )
What does PIMS mean?
Passenger Information Messaging System
I asked the T/O this morning, he said it was a "speed restriction."
And let me add, the sign at Bethesda does work for the Shady Grove trains, or at least it did this morning.
That's interesting that they would be such a big speed restriction on them. So much for that fun. : (
I think the T/O didn't know who he was talking to. I'm guessing he figured that any complex explanation would be meaningless to me. I'll ask again with a different T/O.
LOL, that's possible. Hey, are you going to check out the new transit exhibit down at the National Building Museum? It starts tomorrow and runs until August. From what I understand, there is to be a mock up of the front of a metrorail car, and a simulator for you to use to see how it is to control an actual train. I was going to go down in the afternoon with my buddy to go check it out. I figure that's something I'll check out a couple of times since its free and not many people get over there since it isn't near the other museums.
I probably will eventually. I didn't hear about the simulation, maybe I should go before they modify it in some extreme way for some reason.
I just came back from the exhibit. They had a lot of historical pictures from most major transit systems. A lot on New York and Chicago. There is a whole room dedicated to WMATA stuff, but the simulator wasn't anything more than a film showing the view from the driver's position. I didn't see where you could actually control anything. Its worth going to, though. I want to go back again as its a lot to digest in one visit.
The museum store there has a lot of books on trains, they also have T shirts with the metro map, the book on the 25 years of metro, and this miniature squeezeable subway car. I bought one of those for $5.
Wonderful. If that is all the sim is, then I can just keep riding the train every day wishing I could be about 3 feet further in front and about 5 to the right. I'll go down there sometime to take a look.
What are PIMS?
You asked already, look back at post number 317347.
Are the SIEMENS TRAI CARS ANY GOOD? we are getting them new here in puerto rico cause the government FINALLY decided to build a train that all that's brought during it's construction has been contoversy and by the way the construction looks , it may not be good. I think the bart trains in calif,. has the cars we have here
john
i think the adress is www.trenurbano.com or pesquera2000.com and should appear under tren urbano or urban train
BART's cars were built originally by Rohr....who also built the original 1000 series cars for Washington, DC (though the cars for each property were built in separate plants at opposite ends of the USA).
BART also had a subsequent order built by Morrison-Knudsen. Washington had a subsequent order built by Breda and is in the process of putting newer cars from yet another manufacturer in service.
Siemens has built many light rail system's equipment....notably San Diego, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, Pittsburgh, and if I am not mistaken, Denver and St. Louis. Teh original 71 cars for San Diego were the German U2 design; the first 24 (1001-1024) were actually built in Germany...the remaining 47 (1025-1071) were built in Sacramento. They seem to be well built, and run well. All the roiginal SD Trolley cars from 1981 are still in service.
>>> Siemens has built many light rail system's equipment.... <<<
Don't forget Los Angeles. They are running well on the Green Line.
Tom
Metro's new safety posters feature Metro employees and the slogan "The Employees of Metro: Safety. In Numbers." The posters convey the committment to safety of all Metro employees. Click on the thumbnail images at Metro's website (www.wmata.com) to see the posters, which appear in railcars, buses and Metrorail stations. Personally, I have seen the one with the station manager, the 2nd from right.
Since I'm getting close to the release of my "BVE Selkirk line" I'm looking on to the next BVE project and the idea of doing the "second avenue line" appeals ...
Are there any drawings "out there" of the proposed station design or proposed trackmaps for SAS? It'd help to make the layout look a bit more like the real thing. This way, subtalkers can be piloting runs on the line while the politicians exchange paper on BVE. Is there anything beyond the blue lines shown on MTA's site or any details of the planned trackage and platforms to be found anywhere?
Point your non-IE broswer to here
Dang! Shoulda known it was around here somewhere! THANKS! (I can be SUCH a dumbass sometimes)
I can be SUCH a dumbass sometimes
You and me both :-)
Why non-IE?
Probably because Aiyee would gag on a web page done in pure HTML without viruses coded in as object: tags. :)
One last thing - have the track map problem solved by nycsubway.org's excellent research materials (as always) but there's one last little set of detail that may be much harder to get an answer to (I looked here already in other words) ...
Station DESIGN ... I saw two early approaches to the question 30 years ago in a boardroom in TA HQ ... one design approach was supposedly used to a degree at Parsons/Archer (when I was last out that way, the QJ went to 168th and 179th was the end of the line for the E and the F ... no Parsons. So other than a few photos that really don't give me the detail I need, was wondering if there were any plans for the wall and platform construction (*IF* it was based on 2nd avenue designs, if not, then forget it) ...
There were two "artist's renderings" I saw on a visit to Jay to talk to lawyers over a 12-9 on my train and saw two designs, both with what looked like London underground type arched walls - one with bare BRICK all the way up and around, standard concrete platforms brickwork and tile similar to what is today on some rehabbed stations, and the other was gloss enamel tiling similar to the beige BMT rebuilts of the 70's except that the tiles were arranged so the long sides were VERTICALLY oriented, looking to be about 4 by 6 inches (4 wide, 6 high) in standard SQUARE walls like most IND stations today.
Anybody know what the plan for the 2004 build might be as far as style? Doing a BVE route for second avenue with so many connection possibilities is definitely going to take a WHILE, but I want to do it the proper justice so folks who do the BVE layout can show off what might yet be ... I figure most folks HERE would get their rocks off if it's accurate enough and I have next to nothing to go on for the design of the stations and accesses ...
I'd prefer facts though to fantasies since years from now, I don't want to be called a lam3r for not having proper clairvoyance. :)
Anybody know what the plan for the 2004 build might be as far as style?
Not a clue. But remember the TA now has a thick design standards document that spells out what station decorative elements will be like. After 20 years of each station being individually designed (with generally horrible results -- see 23rd Street Lex line, yuck), there are now guidelines and standards. As a result, new BMT mosaics are being cranked out in wonderful numbers.
It leads to a more interesting question, though. For a brand-new line, what design do you use? It's sorta silly to do fake-1915 BMT style stuff. But the Sixties block tile was uuuuuuuugggllllyyyyyy. (Though I'd like Grand Street, the one new Sixties station, to keep it just so we remember what it was like.)
So ... has anyone seen or READ the TA's station design guidelines? What does it say about entirely new lines?
Would the new station guidelines resemble the 63rd St and Archer Av stations more?
Would the new station guidelines resemble the 63rd St and Archer Av stations more?
Very much doubt it. And I *hope* not! The new design standards were created in the early/mid Nineties, well after those stations were designed and in fact opened.
That's a hard question to answer. Most likely the design work hasn't started yet, so it's anybodys guess what it will look like, but I'll try.
Island platforms are a good bet. Also, try finding pictures of new subway stations around the country and the newer stations in NYC, and see what the trend is in subway design. I would guess lots of concrete, artwork, high rounded roof, and tile might be in the design. Most of the sections are deep bore, so rounded roofs are safe to say. For stations close to the sirface, they will be boxy. Look here for a profile of the line. Don't be surprised if every station looks different.
My suggestion is make the route with your best educated guess and see how close you are after it is built.
I could see at least some stations being given privately funded art commissions for the tilework. The stations could also be designed as memorials to someone or something, again with non-tax dollar funding.
I would not mind giving money to a 'Boss Tweed Memorial Station', where certain past and present politicians would have their names immortalized next to Tweed's. Mosaics of Bess Myerson and Donald Manes would be appropriate.
I could see at least some stations being given privately funded art commissions for the tilework.
I'm under the impression that station rehabs still devote 1% of total budget to the Arts for Transit project to bring artworks into each station. Some of 'em are better than others, but every rehab has *some* kind of unique artwork.
I think it might be neat to design the stations to resemble those in subway/metro systems around the world. How about one looking like a Washington Metro station, one like a London Underground station, one like a Paris Metro station, one like a Moscow Metro station... etc.
I think it might be neat to design the stations to resemble those in subway/metro systems around the world. How about one looking like a Washington Metro station, one like a London Underground station, one like a Paris Metro station, one like a Moscow Metro station... etc.
[grin] Now THIS is a true SubTalk fantasy!
:-D From Mr. Subtalk himself no less
Stuart, RLine86Man
one like a Moscow Metro station...
Yeah, put it where the 1 Cortlandt St station was, call it Krasnij Ploshad' and start flying the hammer and sickle outside it... on second thoughts, maybe not!
one like a London Underground station
Do you really want your trains to run even later?
one like a Paris Metro station
Now you're talking! and with 40 tph through it, 'cos the Parisians reckon they can do that too!
I'm open to suggestion at the moment - if there ARE "official" designs, would rather do that just to keep the whining and foaming down to a minimum. But absent those, might even turn 72nd St into something resembling the Jetsons. :)
Hey! If the MTA DOESN'T have designs, then maybe they'll use ours. Heh.
Oh ... last detail on the renderings I saw 30 years ago ... the enamel tilework I saw was FIRE ENGINE RED GLOSS with white pointing between the tiles ... a true eyeblaze, *BRIGHT* red ... an epileptic's nightmare. That seemed to have been the favored design at the time. Anyone here know?
Whoops ... last comment ... why am I interested in the SAS? Because according to my sources, the sucker is *GOING* to be built! From 125 to destinations unknown downtown with one train being the V which will add downtown, an "X" which will run local only on 2nd, and a recycled "W" which will run on 6th Avenue via 63rd ... but this latter part is PURE speculation based on a talk I had over a few beers with a legislative aide who is "husbanding" this project for the state. Yes, another foamer from Long Island. :)
Just in case anybody wondered why I was thinking on this angle. Wouldn't it be neatness on a stick though to have a simroute for second avenue where you get to pilot an R160 based on current design dreams? Thought so. Heh. If I have some time, a BVE route will emerge from what folks here dish ... might take three months though.
You can check out my AOL home page, where I have a scanned image taken from a previous planning report. Unlike many of the one-line track diagrams out there, this image is a profile showing elevations along the proposed route. It may be interesting for you.
MATT-2AV
Good old AOL ...
"Server busy
The server is too busy to serve your request at the moment. Please try again later. "
I'll keep trying ... sounds like AOL is headed for that giant digital Enron in the sky. :)
THANK YA! Just managed to get in there ... JUST what I needed as far as elevations go ... another angle taken care of ... THANKS! :)
Not to sound like a pinhead, but whats a BVE? i can be a real dumbass also.
Not to sound like a pinhead, but whats a BVE? i can be a real dumbass also.
Maybe it refers to a fantasy line routing thru 7th/53rd.
The Black's Legal Dictionary definition of BVE --> "A subway foamer's computer simulation software of downloaded routes, and rolling stock, to be ran ON SCHEDULE, or face penalty."
How's that? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
BVE ... Boso View Express ... a train simulator for Windows computers that puts YOU in the cab ... you get to run trains as a motorperson. School car without the piss test. :)
Check it out:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/
Damn...its IMPOSSIBLE to install it on a windows 98. i spent 4 hours trying and it doesnt make a damn bit of sense.
Should work just FINE on Lose98 ... might want to hit that BVEHelper site in the previous message - they have a "howto" complete with pictures and all ... BVE involves installing BVE of course, but there's some other files you also have to collect and install. The instructions WILL get ya there ... and it IS worth firing up the pumper over. NICE TOY once you work it. :)
In checking out Mr. Marrero's "E line" for BVE, I noted that it was (I think) "Sutphin" that had PRECISELY the fire engine red vertically-oriented tiles that I saw on that artist's concept for the 2nd avenue line ... one of the E stops has that RED tile on the walls ... THAT was what I had said I had seen and now that I've seen it in BVE (never have been to Parsons) that's EXACTLY what I had seen in the original drawings. Hmmm ...
Did they do that anywhere else? That'd almost make it practical to use that as a design ... between the track maps I've collected and some other data, it does seem to have been the original design intent. And yes, the idea of some really off the wall station designs also sounds like fun. Hopefully I can get the route I was working on done and find some time to do this ... amusing possibilities!
R-142s are in the house again.....
Let's welcome 6846-50 to the family, shall we?
-Stef
Lead me to the spiked punch, Stef...
Using Friday as a Holiday in commemoration of Martin Luther King Day, I spent three full days wandering the Subway System. My main
objective was to capture a thorough overview of the new “V” and rerouted F lines on film, fill a few “holes” in my collection here and there, and take in whatever else might come along.
Day One: Friday, January 18
I started out ordinarily enough on Friday morning (Jan 18), riding an R-142A from 86th & Lex to 59th Street, changing to the BMT downstairs. My first few shots were at 42nd St.-Times Sq. (R-68A on the W, R-40 on Q “Diamond”), then more at 14 St.-Union Sq. (R-46/R, R-40/N, R-68A/W). At Canal St. on the Manhattan Bridge I caught one train from each route (R-68/QC, R-40/QD, R-68A/W). I got on the W train and rode across the bridge, transferring back to the Brighton Line via Pacific St. I caught Slant R-40s on the Diamond Q at Atlantic and 7 Aves., rode back to DeKalb, and hopped an M train (R-42) one stop to Lawrence St. From Lawrence & Willoughby Sts. I briefly emerged into daylight in Downtown Brooklyn long enough to walk to the Jay St.-Boro Hall IND station (A, C, F)--thanks be for Metrocard!
An R-46 F train carried me from Jay St. to 2 Avenue, where I began my trip out the “V” route. V trains don’t seem to waste much time relaying there, but it appeared routine that two F trains would be allowed to pass through for every V trip that departed. In fact, the V train often seemed to be close behind the second departing F train and would often pull into mostly-empty platforms heading Uptown. Anyway, in addition to the Vs, I caught one train each of R-32s on the F at 2 Avenue and Broadway-Lafayette and a typical 4-car set of R-46s on the Grand Street Shuttle at West 4.
Another R-32 passed through 14 Street on the F, then after another stop at 23 I was at 34 St./6 Ave. looking at Bs and Ds coming and going. The B train is using the Southbound Express track to relay; the D train the Northbound Express. Each has specific signs which indicate they only use these specific tracks, so presumably the SB Express goes empty Nights and Weekends. The F/V ’s timing routine never really changed the whole way North (2 Fs and a V, etc.), so the F train continued to bear most of the burden.
After a breakfast break I continued North to 42 St., where I also bagged an R-68 on the D. From Rockefeller Center I rode the next V to 5 Avenue, where it then shares track with the E for passage through the 53rd St. Tunnel. Here it was more of the same: two E trains usually followed closely by a V, but perhaps not as closely as on the F. The result was also similar: Platforms were fairly empty when the V train did pull in, and even then some people would not board (presumably choosing instead to await the E for an Express trip through Queens). On a side note, I again had to concede defeat in my quest to get a decent shot at the lower level of 5 Avenue station. The lighting is very dim and totally indirect, while the platform has no room to spare for those full-length consists of R-32s and R-46s.
I returned to 47-50 for a shot of a typical F train (OOPS!) then rode the V back to Lexington Ave. and 23rd-Ely for more E and V action. I then arrived at a very quiet Queens Plaza, where some type of Station Dept. Supervisor was reading the riot act to an associate about piles of trash bags not being picked up. The crescendo of her voice could even be heard over the squeals of an arriving R train (R-46s). From that point I continued to work east station by station, capturing views of the V at each, along with occasional R trains as well. There were no surprises, it was all R-46s but for R-32s on the E trains passing on the Express tracks and one or two others on the F. Most of the paired 46s (6200s) seemed to be on the F train.
From Continental Ave. I rode an E train for all it was worth back to Queens Plaza (meaning at the front window) and walked a short distance to Queensboro Plaza. By this time the sun was well to the west and low, and it was fairly cold. I snapped an R-68A train on the W leaving the complex toward Astoria, then we boarded the next Flushing train (a Local) and stuck with it all the way to Willets Point Blvd. There I caught a quick, back-lit view of the GE R-33s that had arrived from The Bronx a day or so before, and went back to “work.”
I returned to 74St.-Roosvelt and went downstairs to the E once again, and rode this to Lexington Ave. where I changed briefly to a 6 train, then went downstairs at 59th to get an Express train to Brooklyn. R-28 7861 led the next 5 into the station, and I had the front window on this old gal as far as Wall Street, where I abdicated in favor of a young boy and decided to use the extra long platform to photographic advantage. The next two 5 trains had R-33s, then I grabbed a shot of R-29 8798 leading a train that included R-26s 7770/71, now the lowest-numbered Redbirds in passenger service. A little more patience brought me a Redbird on the 4 as well (R-33 9262) and I hopped on board this one to reach Franklin Ave.
The next 5 train was led by R-33 9064, and I was able to “front window” it from there to Church Ave. where I de-trained for more views. A train of R-142s was following us on the 2, then more R-33s on the 5. At Newkirk Ave. I got off once again and waited around for views of an R-142 on the 2, another R-33 on the 5 and, finally, another train of R-33s led by 9208 on line 2. I got more, probably final, shots of this one at Flatbush, including an interior overview with “2” signs in plain sight. That was it for Friday. I buried my camera and headed for the New York Division ERA meeting at Cooper Union via another Redbird train on the 4 from Franklin Ave. to Union Square, and back one stop on a “Nostalgia Special” (R-62A on the 6) to Astor Place. Due to some kind of problem on 7th Avenue, 2 trains were being diverted down Lex. For a minute I thought R-142s were running on the 5.
Day Two: Saturday, January 19
The morning was spent looking over more effects of the December 16 service changes. I again started at 86 & Lex on a 6 train (another
Nostalgia Special), and changed to the BMT via 59 Street. I caught an R-40 Slant on the N at 57th, then walked over to Sixth Ave. I didn’t realize that R trains were also being diverted via 63 and Ns turned east of Lexington Ave. for the weekend. Anyway, from 57 & 6 I worked over to Lexington-63, Roosevelt Island and 21 St.-Queensbridge, nabbing an R-32 F train at Roosevelt Island. Thanks to the diversion, I boarded an R train and was able to bail out at 36 Street. There, at 46 Street and again at Woodhaven Blvd. and 67 Avenue, I copped views of OPTO R-46s on the G, which seemed to running quite frequently. Then I went to a Nathan’s famous above Union Tpke. station for lunch.
I’m not normally much for buses, but the Metrocard can save “deadhead” time between routs, so after the meal I boarded a Q37 Green Lines RTS from Queens Blvd. to Park Lane South & Myrtle, then changed for the TA’s Q55 (another RTS) and rode all the way to Myrtle & Wyckoff. This brought me to the L line, and from Myrtle Ave. (R-40) I worked west, with stops at Jefferson St. (R-42), Morgan Ave. (R-42), Graham Ave. (R-42), Grand St. (R-42), 3 Avenue (R-40) and 8 Avenue (R-40). The R-143 was no where to be seen and, it turned out, is not in service for a couple of weeks to be modified. That’s OK, the Slants should be leaving soon and those shots were reward enough.
At 14th & 8th on the IND I caught an R-38 on the C and an R-32 on the E. There was a huge track renewal going on and all Uptowns running
on the Express track. I then rode R-44 5352 which had a large “sheet” type MTA-NYCS body logo. It made it a good target for my camera at Chambers St. When I got upstairs near “Ground Zero” it was snowing like mad! I had to retrieve my Snap-On hood and scoonch into my coat for the walk to Franklin & Varick. An interesting experience.
Starting at Franklin St. on the Uptown 1 & 2, I worked all the way up to 34 St.-Penn Station before taking a break. There was no sign of
Redbirds on the 2 at all, while I witnessed the same service sequence as last November: two 1s and a 2, two 1’s and a 2, etc. The difference seemed to be a little more balance in the headway. Anyway, here were the trains I managed to capture:
Franklin St.: R-142 6521 on 2 (mate 6635)
Canal St.: R-62A 2099 on 1; R-142 6800 on 2 (mate 6616)
Houston St.: R-142 6561 on 2 (mate 6695)
Christopher St.-Sheridan Sq.: R-62A 2137 on 1; R-142 6596 on 2 (mate?)
14 Street: R-62A 1865 on 3 (Yellow tape); R-62A 2461 on 3 (Red Tape); R-142 6666 on 2 (mate 6536)
18 Street: R-62A 2133 on 1; R-142 6506 on 2 (mate 6480)
23 Street: R-142 6781 on 2 (mate 6611)
28 Street: R-142 6430 on 2 (mate 6505).
I had to make a comfort stop on the LIRR mezzanine at Penn Station, then continued North. At 34th, I got R-142 6790 on the 2 (mate 6331). All Uptown service was being routed Express from 42 to 72 due to station work, so I had to skip a planned stop at 66 Street. Continuing North:
79 Street: R-142 6420 on 2 (mate 6736)
86 Street: R-62A 1956 on 1; R-142 6720 on 2 (mate -?)
96 Street: R-62A 2301 on 3; R-142 6686 on 2 (mate 6795)
Form 96 Street I rode on an Uptown 1 all the way to 181, got off and went back the other way. I snapped views of arriving trains there, 116 and 103 Streets. Between 181 and 116 there was a middle-aged Hispanic man and his family at the front window of a Lenox car. The family consisted of three adopted Daughters, all deaf. That made for some special conversation, and I mean that in a positive way. Anyway, all was R-62A, including 1651 at 103 Street. I then continued on another #1 back Downtown to 66 Street, where I waited for the next #2 (6336, mated with 6786). This I took to 59th and went downstairs to the IND. To round things out I took a shot of R-68 2578 on the D at 59, then a train of R-32s on an E entering 7 Avenue. The evening’s attraction was the NFL Playoff game between New England and Oakland--the Snow Bowl!
Day Three: Sunday, January 20
The morning was bright and sunny after a 3-inch snowfall, and I gleefully anticipated the scenery on the IRT Broadway Line. I took an M86 bus cross-town this time, and descended to the Uptown 1. R-62As were in abundance and I got some nice snow scenes at 125, 225 and finally 242 Street stations. This time there were no NYPD on the platforms at 215 and 225, and there were a lot of Redbirds shells visible at the 207 Street Shop complex beneath, in addition to the Weeks Crane. While wrapping things up at 231 Street, a Downtown 1 train was held for several minutes while the Broadway Bridge was raised. I got on and waited with the crowd, then my hunch proved correct as I could spy a Weeks Barge with a load of Redbirds disappearing slowly toward the Hudson River!
The race was on and I got off the 1 at 181, went upstairs and all the way over to the GWB Bus Terminal, then out to the pedestrian walkway of the Bridge itself. The barge was visible way up at Spuyten-Duyvil. It took about 90 minutes for the thing to get into the Hudson River shipping channel, re-position the tug and get a proper bearing on the bridge underpassage. At 12:30 I had a nice shot of the tug splitting those signature uprights, with the load of redbird bodies following obediently behind. There appeared to be about 30 bodies (actually 33) and the only numbers visible through my zoom lens were 7772 and 7773.
Back on the Subway, I took an A from 175 to West 4, an F to Delancey and changed for the J train across the Williamsburg Bridge. With the
R-143s in the offing I decided to get some shots on the Eastern Division before things had an opportunity to change too much. Photo stops were made at Marcy Ave., Kosciusko, Gates, Halsey, Chauncey and Broadway Junction (Eastern Pkwy.). All trains but one were “MK” R-42s, the exception being a mixed R-40 Mod/Coney Island R-42 at Chauncey St. It seemed clear the four different types of cars at East New York were being gathered in separate batches, presumably to ease later transfers.
There was a nervous NYPD Officer at Broadway Junction (after I took my shots) who claimed ALL photography was prohibited. Recruits are
hard-pressed....I just smiled and moved on. Next stop was Cypress Hills, then Woodhaven Blvd., 104 Street (102 in “my day”) and finally 111 Street. I caught R-40 Mods at the last two locations in setting sun. From 111 I rode back to Broadway-Myrtle and headed up the M line. It was almost dark, and I decided to wait for the station lights to come on before attempting any new views at Seneca Ave. I went downstairs to a Chinese Restaurant for a bite to eat and when I returned 20 minutes later they were on. Eventually I got an R-40 Mod at Seneca, then last but not least, R-42 4800 coming into Wyckoff Ave. Northbound.
That was it for me, I changed to the L again and returned via Union Sq. to 86 & Lex. My last vehicle was yet another “Nostalgia Special” on the 6, R-62A 1721 in front with a clean front window. At least I could see through the cab.
That was the wrap on a neat weekend of subway surfing. Hope to have another chance soon!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Did you notice any delays in the Uptown No.2+5 service Friday evening there was a Uptown No.5 train with door problems at Sterling Street. I think it was a 12 Minute delay.
7773 = redbird with r21 storm door.
ALL PHOTOGRAPHY PROHIBITED??--- ha, get a MTA photo permit.
Thanks for details!
:)
The door was removed at 207 and probably still lives there.
Most cops don't pay me no mind. This one was new and had happy feet. She wants to make sure of getting home to her Baby.
I stopped getting permits years ago when told I no longer needed one. MTA Code of Conduct still valid. Now, a REAL permit required insurance, etc. and (ahem) "production purpose" (??)
In any case it was a community effort; outta sight, outta mind...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@ao.com)
I've noticed several tunnels that connected to the Newark City subway. Just how much of Newark was served by those routes? A section of tunnel is somewhere on the PATH, I froget where, but you can see straight into it. I think it's near a station.
The old Henderson Yard lead branches off the W/B main around Grove.
Did PATH train operate on the Newark City subway?
This has probably been asked before, can a PATH train fit on the IRT?
It should fit, though there might be some problem areas since the PA-series equipment bellies out on the sides a bit. For revenue operation, a more important problem would be that the signal trip arms are on different sides of the track. Note that the reverse isn't true - IRT cars wouldn't be able to operate on the uptown line due to the Morton St. curves. I'm not sure about downtown, but it's a moot point at this time anyway.
If you ride the PATH, take a look at the NJ end of the NJ-bound uptown tunnel. You'll see that parts of it are actually full-size - the original 1874-1885 construction planned to handle full-size freight equipment. And the walls of that tunnel aren't iron rings - they are 6 layers of brick.
No, PATH never operated over the Newark City Subway.
Do you have a list of 1000 questions stored up in advance?
Maybe you can limit it to 20 per day, eh?
There are several abandoned structures on the Newark City
Subway, both in the subway portion and outside. These were
feeders into the City Subway from other surface lines in Newark.
The PATH tunnels that match your description are:
1) the old Henderson Yard lead (tunnel Y) near Grove St.
2) the "Penn Pocket" just west of Exchange Place (tunnel L)
3) the uncompleted branch to Astor Place at the east end of 9th St.
In addition, there are these, which are harder/impossible to see:
4) a branch to CRRNJ at the west end of Grove St. (the westbound side has a signal shack in the opening, the eastbound side has power equipment behind a plywood wall)
5) a branch to Newark from the uptown river tunnels (Caissons 1 upper and lower are actually 3-way splits) with signal shacks in them
6) a short piece of a different branch to CRRNJ under the track from Grove St. toward Exchange Place after the split.
7) two short pieces of a branch from Hudson Terminal (WTC) direct to Erie (Pavonia/Newport) under Tunnel E under the Hudson River
8) a different short piece of one of the tunnels from (7) parallel to tunnel F under the Hudson River
9) two tunnel mouths in Hudson Terminal for the two tunnels from (7)
10) the abandoned Hudson Terminal station itself
11) the abandoned original eastbound uptown tunnel, under the westbound one for a short distance out into the river from NJ
12) the access tunnel behind the metal doors at the east end of the eastbound Exchange Place platform, which is how the station was built under the existing PRR station at ground level
And, for completeness, though they don't really count:
13) abandoned (removed) full X crossover north of 19th S. station when 19th St. was the furthest uptown station
14) half crossover south of 9th St.
I'm not counting the original 33rd St, since it isn't just "abandoned", it was removed. Nor am I counting tunnels E and F and the Exchange Place and WTC stations.
Terry: This is great stuff. Is it presented graphically anywhere? I think a diagram would be easier to comprehend -- spent awhile riding PATH last night, but still hard to imagine ....
Not that I know of (for the complete set). Some of it isn't known to most PATH employees. For some of it you have to go back to the original drawings filed with the state (it was necessary to file a route with the state and pay a fee per mile even if you had permission from all of the original property owners to build). Other info is in contemporary accounts of the construction, while some of it is from Jacobs' original journal when he surveyed for the lines. If I ever get some time I'll produce a comprehensive web page documenting all this, with scans of the original source documents.
In the meantime, take a look at some of these:
PATH track map showing Henderson yard lead and Penn Pocket.
H&M tunnels at Hudson Terminal (right to Exchange Place, left is stub planned to go to Erie).
Looking west on the eastbound track at Exchange Place - left goes to Erie, center to Grove, right is the "pocket".
Henderson St. yard lead from Grove St.
If I ever get some time I'll produce a comprehensive web page documenting all this, with scans of the original source documents.
Would love to see that. A comprehensive map of the current system, with these portions shown in relation to what's there now, would be utterly great. I can't offer to help make it, but given the map-making talent contained in/on SubTalk, I wonder if others might ...
H&M tunnels at Hudson Terminal (right to Exchange Place, left is stub planned to go to Erie).
This is the one I'm puzzled about. Was this planned to lead to a separate set of 2 tubes across the river? Does it still exist or was it torn out when Hudson Terminal station was replaced by WTC station?
I *did* see the takeoff for the 9th Street fork over to Wanamaker's when I rode last night, mostly filled with equipment. You gotta know it's there to see it.
This is the one I'm puzzled about. Was this planned to lead to a separate set of 2 tubes across the river?
Yes. It was to go directly from Hudson Terminal to Erie. I don't know why they wanted this, other than that they got too sure of themselves after completing the 4 other tunnels.
Does it still exist or was it torn out when Hudson Terminal station was replaced by WTC station?
I don't know if the tunnel mouths are there or not. The 2 crossing under the westbound tunnel are still there, as is the piece that parallels the eastbound tunnel. The latter is reachable from an access door in the eastbound tunnel. I don't know about the former - I suspect one may be reachable from the sump pit by the pump, but the other one may have no access from the working tunnel. They're just stubs under 100' long, built so there wouldn't need to be any disturbance of the working tunnel when the additional tunnels were built.
Did you review the Newark City Subway material available on this site? There is a track map showing former junctions and a writeup describing which trolley routes used the subway (and from what junction they entered). Newark City Subway
The N train should be extended to the Bronx via tunnel to conncet with the 6 line at 143rd street. 143rd street station should be abandoned for this purpose.
The only problem with this is you have , the subways are designed to go into Manhattan, and back from Manhattan for ridership, I dont think you have the ridership from Queens to the Bronx.How many people live in Queens that work or travel to the Bronx? most people either travel to Manhattan or stay within the two boroughs that you mentioned.
If the N was ever extended to the Bronx, it just might draw passengers usings the #7 E,F,G,R and V lines. Because it would offers a faster option to the bronx at this point.
N Bwy
Then to make it more worthwhile, the N should be a cross bronx line so that it can make transfers to all the lines: 1-6 and the D. I know it would help out a friend of mine who lives in Riverdale and works in Astoria.
=)
If we are to talk of sending the Astoria line into the Bronx, it makes more sense to switch the Flushing to BMT and the Astoria to IRT; this would increase Flushing service by a good 10%.
The 11-car Astoria IRT, extended to the Bronx via a Hell Gate tunnel and Randall's Island, could take over elements of the present Bronx IRT, perhaps the outer reaches of the Pelham line as well as the Dyre Ave line.
This is not as crazy as it might seem, nor even as roundabout.
The N will never become an IRT line because of how it comes into the Queensboro Plaza station. And it will be most preferable to run the line through the central Bronx, since it will enter central south Bronx anyway. Prehaps the N line can go to the same place as the future second Avenue Line to Dyre Avenue. Then a connection b/t the #6 can be made at Hunters Point Avenue and E.180th Street via the #2 and 5 lines. So connecting to the IRT is easy and reasonable.
Also, I will like to see the D extended to White Plains Road, connecting to the #2 and #5 at the Gun Hill Road station. This will give passengers the option to travel from the West-Central Bronx, to the Central Bronx. But most of all, wouldn't it be nice for the D to go all the way to Co-op City of which a connection with the #6, which will be extended to Co-op City as well?
The only missing ends will be the 1/9 and the #4. But here's an option. The #9 can branch off the main line and terminate at Gunhill Road. This could be a massive transfering point b/t the future 2nd Avenue line (via 3rd Ave. in the bx), The D (via Grand Concourse) and the #2 and #5 line (via White Plains Road in the Bronx.
Once and for all, Connection problems in the Bronx will be solve which will reduce the need to ride the City Buses.
1) If The N Astoria Line is ever extended it will give Queens Riders direct access to the Bronx and Bronx Rider direct access to Queens. As a result, reducing traveling time for passengers living, working and recreating in these boroughs.
2) If the D is extended to White Plains Road, it will provide that needed transfer that so many passengers can benefit from. But if it is extened all the way to Co-op City, that will solve alot of the transfering problems Bronx riders have. Especially those traveling within the bronx. It will also remove a lot of people who are currently using the city buses
3) If the #6 is extended, it will be the icing on the cake. It is the line that provides the southeast access, and without this connection, the D doesn't really help passengers coming from the South East Bronx from Co-Op City.
4) A second avenue line along 3rd Avenue in the bronx is needed because currently, there isn't any service in the central bronx. The closes line is the D, but doesn't offer that much relief in this area. So the 3rd Avenue Line will be a PLUS!
OUT of all the connections,,, If this plan was implemented, White Plains Road will win with hands down. It will give passengers the options to transfer b/t the 9, 2/5, D lines. As a result, Westside, North Central and EastBronx. The only missing links are the Southeast Bronx provided by the #6, and All of Queens with the N.
N Broadway Line
ASTORIA
The 6 line is underserved, riders want more service. The Bd. of Trans. had plans to add another line to the 6. However, it never materialized.
The plan seems good and certainly does seem useful, but in these plans, would the N be extended from Astoria, or would it be cut off from Manhattan and Brooklyn and only see Bronx and Queens?
From Astoria.
The Sea Beach not in Brooklyn? You guys are asking for it. Cut out this shit. The Sea Beach is Brooklyn and Manhattan, not the Bronx because it is the BMT---Not the IRT. Nothing against the Bronx but to even hear of anyone saying something so ridiculous as taking my train off the BMT and out of Brooklyn is ludicrous on the face of it---AND you are getting me good and PO'd.
Send the Sea Beach to the Bronx? Are you out of your mind? The Sea Beach is BMT, not IRT. That would be the final insult, making my train IRT instead of BMT. Good God, what will they think of next?
Speaking seriously, at least sending it north from Carnegie Hall up to 86th St., and across to Lex (and 2nd if they ever build it) would give some relief to the Lex.
This would be a rather cheap subway in that most of it is thru Central Park. You do cut and cover up to a station on the Dendur side of the Met museum at 5th Av, and then over to Lex via E86 for another station.
They could send it to Selkirk ... as it is, we've got WAY too many IRT cars running through here now ... right past the rod and gun club property too ... talk about stones. :)
Well just as long as the Sea Beach is put back on the Manhattan Bridge, operates from Coney Island and runs as the Broadway Express and remains a B-division line, what's the harm in the N running up 2nd Avenue and into the Bronx? BMT routes, if I'm not mistaken, have always been oriented towards their southern terminals. The Sea Beach would continue that tradition.
Well if all of those parameters are met, then I have absolutely NO complaint of having my train go to the Bronx. But I am not going to hold my breath for those things you mentioned to happen. I would be elated if they did but Coney Island, Manhattan Bridge, Broadway Express, seem like abstractions right about now. But good ideas on your part. I tip my cap to you R-142.
Good for Fred, but bad for me. I still need to see my N train everyday. :D
Hey save the drama & that not going to work.
Hey save the drama & that not going to work.
DNJ
MTA-NYCT
I have often thought of such an extension, but I think an (N) extension to northeastern Queens via LaGuardia is a better idea.
:-) Andrew
.......'nuff said!
I've seen an articulated Prevost, what other coach type buses have been made like this?
Don't get to into this thread, I put it here by accident.
Hey interborough, you are in the wrong station & you should have gone to BUSTALK not SUBTALK.
DNJ
MTA-NYCT
Re-read the second posting.
Story HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks. I was wondering how there could be any real damage to the station when the street above was undamaged and partly accessible to pedestrians already.
This will also make the C train usable again. The downtown E and C were backing up to Spring St or worse lately because of the time involved in evicting everyone from the E at Canal.
this will also benefit the E crews i know. i have heard that they had to sit at canal for about 3-4 min, enter WTC and dump. Then their recovery time wasn't so great because they had to take the next train. so that means if i arrive at WTC at 1430, and the next train arrives at 1434, i will be pulling off probably at 1438. ouch! even 7 crews get like 12 min
Now that a good news & they should rename to Ground Zero Station.
DNJ
MTA-NYCT
NYCTA may rename the WTC station because the terrorists destroyed WTC buildings using airplanes as missiles. The old station name was Hudson Terminal (I think) because trains from New Jersey stopped in the area before the railroad became PATH. To save money making new signs for station and trains, I think that NYCTA should use "Hudson Terminal" signs again. The R32, R38, R40, R40M, and R42 subway trains may still have "Hudson Terminal" signs inside the sign boxes. Jeffrey.
>>>The R32, R38, R40, R40M, and R42 subway trains may still have "Hudson Terminal" signs inside the sign boxes.<<<
No they don't.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>The R32, R38, R40, R40M, and R42 subway trains may still have "Hudson Terminal" signs inside the sign boxes.<<<
No they don't.
If the TA does considering renaming the station as "Hudson Terminal" That means that they will need to replace the current roll signs with the new one. If that happens, I hope they also considering adding the Yellow circle/diamond T Broadway-Brighton Express and replace the diamond Yellow Q.
No, the T should be what is now the W. After, that was what the line was from about 1965-67.
-- Ed Sachs
"No, the T should be what is now the W. After, that was what the line was from about 1965-67."
As posted last week, the "T" will be used for the second avenue subway. Apparently the "V" used to be designated for this, but obviously not anymore. -Nick
The "V" was reserved for 6th Ave at least 20 years ago. The R27's on the 6th Ave. shuttle in 1986 had this route on it's signs, signed as "Ave. of Americas (6th Ave) Local". I could never figure out what it was meant for.
I'll second that.
They would probably just call it Chambers St.
I don't think that they will rename WTC station "Chambers Street" because there's already "Chambers Street" station for the A train nearby. If the "E" train has "Chambers Street" signs, passengers may panic when the "E" train "skips" the other "Chambers Street" station and arrives at its own station. I think that the station is under Vesey Street so it may be renamed "Vesey Street" if NYCTA can't decide the new name for the station but for now, passengers can't exit directly to the street for safety and security reasons. Jeffrey.
I would guess the MTA will give the station a temporary name, until a final decision is made on what the name of the WTC replacement complaex will be. Hudson Terminal's my sentimental favorite for a temporary name, but odds are only 15 percent of the population at most would have any idea what that means, since it's been 31 years since it was called that.
I would guess the MTA will give the station a temporary name, until a final decision is made on what the name of the WTC replacement complaex will be. Hudson Terminal's my sentimental favorite for a temporary name, but odds are only 15 percent of the population at most would have any idea what that means, since it's been 31 years since it was called that.
How about September 11th Memorial? Okay, it's a bit long, but no worse than some others. And while it's not a place name, most people will be able to figure it out soon enough. I believe the Paris Metro names stations after things and events in addition to locations.
Speaking of memorials, perhaps the Port Authority will consider renaming the PATH terminal, to be reopened within two years, in honor of its late executive director (Levy Terminal?)
perhaps the Port Authority will consider renaming the PATH terminal, to be reopened within two years, in honor of its late executive director (Levy Terminal?)
While I appreciate the gesture, I'm broadly against naming transit facilities for specific people. I fear that the Amtrak rebuild of the Farley USPS facility will end up being called Moynihan Station. ugh.
I personally would rather see the "Hudson Terminal" name resuscitated. It has a wonderful early 20th century ring to it, is historic, and doesn't permanently tie the PATH station to the tragedy. I very much believe that a memorial park must be built. I don't believe that *every* part of the *entire site* needs to be forever named for the tragedy.
A small memorial park would be great. I am absolutely opposed to any plan which does not substantially restore commerce, culture, etc. to the 16-acre WTC site.
A small memorial park would be great. I am absolutely opposed to any plan which does not substantially restore commerce, culture, etc. to the 16-acre WTC site.
There seem to be rumblings that the footprints of the two towers should be the location for any memorial. That seems about right to me.
According to this article, the name will remain "World Trade Center".
I don't see why they should change the name at all. Would it be in bad taste if they kept the name World Trade Center? I don't think so. If they rebuild the trade Center wouldn't it still be called that? So why change the station name? Everyone knows what happened.
Actually, the signs on both platforms say "Chambers St. WTC", and they are really the same four track station, but with the local tracks offset to the east and south. It is the same complex.
Yeah, I guess ur right about that since there is stair at the chamber street station that u take u to the E platform.
Did they reprogram the R46s? what will they make it say on the R32s as well?
The signs still say World Trade Center.
- Lyle Goldman
The R-32s originally had Hudson Terminal signs. I remember seeing them on AA trains. Not sure about any of the later fleets.
The original side signs on the R40/42/44 said "Hudson Terminal"
"Hudson Terminal" wouldn't be approproate, anyway, since PATH isn't going there for a while. "Chambers St, Manhattan" is on the roll signs.
The old name was Chambers Street-Hudson Terminal (the wall tile used to read "H AND M").
That would work out if they rebuild the Hudson Terminal building (taller than the original), and re-open the old PATH station.
I do hope they keep the Eyes.
wayne
They could simply call it "Chambers St". All cars have this station on it's rollsigns. But all the R32's on the E i saw yesterday had the "World Trade Center" sign set. A tad morbid. I'd have preferred the "Chambers St, Manhattan" sign.
Since the exits from the E platform are still going to be closed, requiring riders to use the exits on the A platform or the 1/2 platforms at Park Place, passengers getting off at the E station are going to have a long walk to get out of the station. I think the station should stay closed until the stairways re-open.
Why are you opposed to the convenience of passengers whose needs are different from yours?
The need to get everyone off the E trains at Canal has caused havoc with the downtown local track there because of delays. Also, some people actually want to take an E to Chambers, say to get to the municpal buildings near there, and waiting to get to Canal and then waiting for another train adds time.
Also, the WFC is gradually reopening, resulting in more people who will want to walk west along Park Place from that stop.
"Also, the WFC is gradually reopening, resulting in more people who will want to walk west along Park Place from that stop"
It's good to see that the buildings around ground zero will be reopenining, even though there will be no more connector from the financial center to the wtc. Also, the Amex building will be reopening in April. -Nick
How's West Street doing? Has it been rebuilt?
- Lyle Goldman
Some people are only transferring there to begin with.
Some people want the north exits, and would rather take the E that's already there than wait for a different train that would take them a few feet closer.
Some people are on the C and don't want to wait behind an E that has to be thoroughly cleansed of passengers at Canal.
Can someone tell me why, except after maybe two weeks after the attack for precaution, the E didn't go back there to begin with?
I've been asking that for weeks. Lots of theories but no answers.
The E trains have been going only 95% of the way into the station to turn around. This leads to theories about debris still being there, perhaps left as evidence because the area is a crime scene.
Maybe they didn't want to open the station back up because of fear of crowding at the north stairways but decided that the backup of E and C trains coming south into Canal (resulting from the need to evict everyone from the E at Canal)was intolerable.
The E trains have been going only 95% of the way into the station to turn around. This leads to theories about debris still being there, perhaps left as evidence because the area is a crime scene.
More likely, they went just far enough to clear the switches. None of the reports I had heard about the WTC station said anything about debris on the platform. In fact, I recall reading just after September 11th that the doors which lead from the south end of the platform into the WTC shopping concourse were still intact.
I actually was at Chambers Street A/C today during lunch hour on an errand. Most of the plywood that covered the entrance way to the E train WTC platform (by the transfer to the IRT) had been removed, and a crew of transit workers were cleaning the area.
I actually was at Chambers Street A/C today during lunch hour on an errand. Most of the plywood that covered the entrance way to the E train WTC platform (by the transfer to the IRT) had been removed, and a crew of transit workers were cleaning the area.
I hope they have the decency to put up a solid plywood barrier, and paint it, in front of the WTC doors. Hanging an American flag wouldn't be a bad idea either.
The last thing they want is crowds of people in the station looking at the doors.
Looking at the doors, would not be fun. Looking behind the doors, would be lots of fun.
There is now corrugated metal covering them.
The last time I was there, a section of the platform was ripped up. Not from damage, but like it was being redone (it was newly redone, so I didn't get what they were doing). I don't know if this is finished.
Here's THE answer, not a theory.
The NYPD didn't want the station open, so it wasn't open. NYPD has changed its mind, so the station will be open starting next week.
David
NY1 just ran a story that the E will terminate at the old WTC station starting 5 am Monday. No news on a name.
Why not call it World Financial Center for now, at least until further plans come to fruition ?
From the hot zone,
hsimms
Just take all the signs down and call it Chambers St. You can even delay in putting the signs up b/c I don't think their necessary when you could just look at the A/C platform and the fact that you would have seen the sign, Chambers St, several times before you came into the platform if you're coming from outside.
Because it's pretty far from the WFC; there's a lot that's closer to it. Keep the WTC name or revert to Hudson Terminal, IMO.
Thank you. I take it you have the information of a direct NYPD request/demand from a TA source?
One does wonder how the NYPD has a stake in it if the reopening does not mean opening any additional street-level subway entrances, but I guess we just have to be grateful that they saw the light.
Newsday's story: Point browsers to: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nysub252564814jan25.story
Story HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
I know that Bus Operators, Train Conductors & Tooken Booth Clerks were badges. But then why don't Train Motorman's were badges? Was there a time that Train Motorman's wore badges while on duty? Just Curious. If many of you on this site that are Motorman & Conductor please try to give me a best answer.
My guess is that T/O's do not directly interact with the public while on duty. I could be wrong, though.
Motormen were issued badges ... you'd wear it on your choochoo hat or you'd wear it on a leather pad on your belt. Had to show it when asked and woe be to ye if you didn't have it. Though there wasn't a "uniform" per se, you WERE expected to wear your chuchuhat ...
Were gloves optional for motormen?
I believe they were ... but you still wore them anyway ... at least I did. You DEFINITELY wore them if you were going to hit the breaker panel. In fact, a few of them were sparky enough that you'd use your shoe wood to toss switches ... and yes, I've been bit THROUGH the gloves and company shoos ...
BTW: Most Operating TA Managers carry 'gold' badges.
Wow ... I could swear we were issued galvanized steel for ours. No savings spared for us "TA meat." GOLD, eh? I'd sell short. :)
Those oldtimers are beginning to sound more and more dangerous: getting zapped, having a step plate break off under your foot, having a control box fall on your lap, etc.
Should serve to indicate that things are a *LOT* better and safer today than back then ... folks REALLY don't seem to appreciate how well things are ...
Everyone now is required to wear the TA ID card...one of my class members was sought out by the TA ID police. Car Inspectors have gone through FOUR ID carriers, the last one being an armband. I'm all muscle and no fat...the armband does nothing but cut off my circulation so it is wrapped on my helmet with a facsimile with the original in my pocket. I get annoyed because I'm real dirty/greasy TA wearing all my tools...nothing to hide but my skinny butt. CI Peter
Heh. Badge and pass was it for my day ... if you were SMART, you'd keep it in a window pocket in your wallet since you needed to flash it at the booth before opening the gate for your woohoo "free ride" ... when I was a conductor, had to wear the chuchuhat, but as a motorman, tended to keep it on a leather flap on my belt. Every now and then, you'd get some wiseass in the booth who would demand that you stop and come to the window for a genuine sniff. :)
Free ride? They want us to clock it in the turnstile now...if you are late for work, there is a record for how poor the service is. Travel by car to 207th takes me NINE minutes (not counting landmine avoidance in the YAHD.) Mebbe next pick! CI Peter
Back in the old days, they didn't CARE how bad the service was, if you missed your spot, you had to chill your jets in the TMO's office and you'd BETTER have a note from mommy. :)
Deps wear a little badge on their belts like narco cops. Do you think I should wear one too?? It could say:' CI/Ham WB2SGT/Garand shooter/taxpayer. CI Peter
Strictly speaking, why are badges necessary? Do they convey any REAL (not just perceived) authority, or are they just an expensive decoration?
While riding around Los Angeles several times in the past, I noticed that LACMTA's bus and train operators' "badge" numbers are embroidered directly on their uniform shirts/sweaters/jackets. Of course, TWU-100 would object to that on the grounds that an embroidered number can't be hidden the way a physical badge can.
Well ... I'm going to go WAY out on a limb here and am likely *WRONG* in terms of reality today ... basically as I remember it when *I* had "TA tin" it had to do with the civil service position under New York State law ... if you are "sworn in" (and NYCTA conductors, motormen and other TA staff *ARE*) then you are a "public officer" under the law which grants powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men ... faster than a speeding hippo, up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane, it's an R40 ...
The badges are largely symbolic nowadays, but years ago they meant that a TA employee had the right to arrest customers as "public officers" though that has changed under policy modifications over the years ... lemme put it to you this way - when I worked for the NYS Public Service Commission, I too had a badge. And if the whim (and justification for my actions) suited me, I could cuff a hemming and hawing telephone company manager if they obstructed my official duties. And I'd be backed up by the courts as long as I had "reasonable cause" for doing so. Not so for the TA, but largely NYS Civil Service law remains in a nearly 200 year old funkiness.
But bear in mind, as a "public officer" if you screw up, you go straight to jail ... one of the downsides of civil service. Maybe someone here who knows the current score might offer an explanation of the whys and wherefors ... it's probably symbolic these days though because it's been done that way for nearly 100 years ...
Forgotten before I hit send ... as a "public officer" you are imbued with powers and authority by the state. A conductor for instance receives a large and visible badge. I think it's still worn on the chuchuhat, was in my day. The conductor is ultimately responsible for the safety of the train and the customers. Anyone who obstructs the conductor in their duties can be charged with a crime just for doing that. However police are summoned rather than a conductor taking the law into their own hands. Bureaucratic modifications from the IRT days.
The conductor though is the primary person on board a train. Not the motorman (I believe this is still true today) - the motorman's sole responsibility is the safety of the train mechanically and its safe operation. The conductor is responsible for evacuations or control of a dangerous situation in the absence of a "higher authority" and thus it's their train. The motorman is NOT the "captain" or so it was in my day, the conductor was. Conductors were issued 5 digit badge numbers while motormen were issued 4 digit badge numbers.
Motorman tin is much smaller than that of the conductor and was pretty plain actually. It just said "Motorman" and had the 4 digits bitten out of the metal. You were required to WEAR it, but it was NOT necessary at the time to wear it on your hat, your blue shirt, or your skanky greased-up jeans. I wore mine on a leather pad on my belt and that was fine by the wiglets. Might be more formal now ...
Bottom line though, the badge symbolizes the "authority" of the crew members as "almost police" and DOES convey "arrest authority" ... however, the city administration probably does not either authorize or encourage motormen or conductors to perform "police duties" and frankly, without a sidearm and proper training, they'd be foolish to even try to do so. Hopefully this gives you a bit of the picture behind the tin, maybe others here have more recent details than I do.
Just to show you how much of a paralegal I am, I checked the NYS Statutes (McKinney's). Their arresting powers come from 21 NYCRR 1050.9.
Stuart, RLine86Man
It's also backed up by state code as well. NYCRR is "local" jurisdiction, the MTA is a state agency. But yeah, same same ... :)
State code: RTL (Rapid Transit Law)...although I don't know...what section of the RTL this goes with.
(And if you notice, on LIRR MUs, in the bathrwooms, it states the NYCRR as the "governing body" behind the No Smoking rule.)
Stuart, RLine86Man
We had an even better power back then. Love 'em or leave 'em. If they didn't co-operate and let the conductor close the doors, you left 'em in zero degree temps for 20 minute intervals.
"Ladies and gentlemen, you have the right to remain behind, anything you say or do will only piss off our follower as we aren't going to deal with you anymore. Please pick up your personal belongings with those seats you tossed through the window glass and thank you for discharging with New York City Transit. Have a nice day."
Train crews don't have the power of intimidation with unruly passengers anymore and it shows. Passengers run the trains now. We are along for the ride.
I'm "old schoolcar" myself ... we didn't NEED no steenking PA. Heh. And yes, from all the "touchy feely" I read about here, I cringe often. Back in my day, supervision would back you up when you broke out the "pursuader" from under the cab door. :)
Sorry there is no direct link but you can cut and paste. It looks like the WTC station will open in the next 2 weeks
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-24/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-139176.asp"
SubwaySurf is fast but he has a link lol
From this morning's Daily News, see this article ....
I personally think the WTC name should stay, the WTC will be rebuilt, changing the name is giving in to terrorism.
For the first time ever, train travelers can stay connectedfree-of-charge while traveling, as Yahoo! Inc. and Amtrak roll out the United States' first Internet trains. With cars wrapped in Yahoo!'s
signature yellow and purple colors, the three interactive trains are
operating on Amtrak services - the Acela Regional in the Northeast, Capitols in Northern California and Hiawatha in the Midwest - and offer guests access to Yahoo! content and services while on-the-go. The Internet trains are equipped with Compaq iPAQ* Pocket PCs giving guests the ability to surf the Web, free-of-charge, as they travel for business or pleasure.
Guests aboard the brightly wrapped Internet trains can now stay on top of their professional and personal lives by accessing many of Yahoo!'s popular services, such as Yahoo! Mail, Yahoo! Finance,
Yahoo! News, Yahoo! Sports, and many more, from the powerful and easy-to-use Compaq iPAQ Pocket PCs, mounted in the café cars or coaches. There are no additional fares or fees associated with the use of onboard Internet access.(Standard train fares apply.) Starting today, the World Wide Web is being transformed into the World Ride Web!
---I got this from a special AMTRAK/YAHOO press release, and Im working on details on schedules...ill post them when I get them.
Now we can post real-time trip reports on SubTalk!
I find that amusing - every time we do the Empire corridor, we bring along our laptops which we plug into the 110 AC sockets along the wall, and connect via cellphone ... it's worked for years. So people being soon able to do what we've done all along (without renting a palm pilot and stuck with Yahoo) is about to be possible? Gloryoski! :)
And yes, while enroute, spent most of the two plus hour trip on subtalk. Been done.
Nothing much to report from last night's Cross-Harbor freight tunnel hearing in Sunset Park. Now I have the handouts, at least. But, chatting with various folks in the "big transit projects" biz, I did get this tidbit -- which answers a question I've had:
Turns out that the work to tunnel the LIRR East Side Access connector under Sunnyside Yard *will* include an extra two trackways for the subway!
Apparently the lower-level LIRR tunnel from 63rd Street will split from 2 to 4 tracks between its current endpoint and the boundary of the yards. The upper-level subway tunnel will take off from the existing bellmouth (this works for Queens-bound, but they'll still need a flyover for westbound to avoid level crossing, I think) and run into 2 trackways parallel to the LIRR tracks. The LIRR tracks come up between and connect into the mainline (alignments need to be tweaked). The subway trackways will come up to portals between mainline tracks.
SO ... once LIRR goes to GCT, building a Queens Super-Express really only requires laying subway track along the LIRR mainline.
I'm impressed ... LIRR and TA working together. (My source also said that LIRR to GCT is rolling along as fast as any such project he's ever seen. There's are now apparently 300 people, between MTA and consultants and engineers, all of them in a project team whose sole mission is to get the sucker built on time and on budget. Cool .... )
Rumor has it some work has already begun related to building the connector under sunnyside. mounts of dirt and debris are being removed from the NY&A LIC terminal area (right where the 7 comes out of the tunnel @ hunts point av) in preperation for the project (no idea what they'll use the space for? parking construction equipment?).
There's also been a crew going around the old LIRR yard A (freight side of sunnyside), drilling holes here and there - perhaps some sort of survey? Not sure if this is project related.
There's also been a crew going around the old LIRR yard A (freight side of sunnyside), drilling holes here and there - perhaps some sort of survey? Not sure if this is project related.
Yes, it is. I'm not sure of the layout over there, but Yard A is where they're going to open up the ground and build the trench from the 63rd Street tunnel(s). They will then apparently assemble the TBM within the trench and point it underground.
yes, yard A is the unused old LIRR freight yard. the rest is the amtrak/NJT facility which i suspect they'll use the TBM to go under to link it to harold.
To WHAT????????? (Do ya mean "Grand Central" as in New York Central System Station??????????????????? *lol* just kidding)
Stuart, RLine86Man
eh? to harold LIRR interlocking (which means going under amtrak's sunnyside facility) and over to the 63rd st. tunnel bellmouths just past northern blvd.
I wonder when the connection to GCT in manhattan will start. doesn't lower level 63rd end at 2nd av? also, will any buildings between the yard A and northern blvd. be taken down? there's a big warehouse and MTA structure/maintainence facility right in the path the of the line.
get the sucker built on time and on budget
Weird. The project was started with the 63rd Street tunnel in '70s. Subway served began as far as Queensbridge in 1989. Finally at the end of 2001 regular service began from Queens Boulevard. The LIRR portion of the project is finally moving along like it may actually get completed in a few years.
Kind of strains the meaning of "on time and on budget." ;-)
Kind of strains the meaning of "on time and on budget." ;-)
True, but it seems conditions are different now -- real desire to do these kinds of projects AND (apparently) the $$$ to make (at least some of) them happen.
There's actually an interesting point here. Guy I was talking to said the difference was that there's a PROJECT TEAM, composed of LIRR, TA, MTA, consultant, engeering, etc. people. Their primary affiliation is not to their agency or company, but the team and its particular project. Much, much more of a "can do, get it done" mentality, he says.
Time will tell, of course.
Does this project actually have funding???
Does this project actually have funding???
Good question. Clearly there's enough funding where they're starting to dig around Sunnyside.
IIRC, there have been some appropriations in the tens of millions of $$$. Maybe as much as $100 million? I do believe that Second Avenue got $200 million to do the engineering.
Hope to have more details on this in a few days ... pursuing my sources!
Hello! I'm an LIRR engineer and new to subtalk. Some folks I've talked to who are involved in the project described the LIC connections this way: East of the existing bellmouths, the tunnel will expand from 2 to 6 tracks. 4 tracks will curve northeast beneath Sunnyside yard and emerge at portals within Harold Interlocking. (Signs have been posted at the portal locations west of 43rd St).These tracks will provide direct connections to Main Line & Pt. Washington Br. tracks. The remaining 2 tracks will tunnel beneath Harold's tracks and tie into Sunnyside Yard's Loop tracks to allow access to a new layup yard in Yard A.Unfortunately, there was no mention of integrating the subway into the mix, and quite frankly I can't see where the 2 super express tracks would go as there is 6 LIRR tracks from Harold thru Woodside with little or no room for expansion.
folks I've talked to who are involved in the project described the LIC connections this way: East of the existing bellmouths, the tunnel will expand from 2 to 6 tracks. 4 tracks will curve northeast beneath Sunnyside yard and emerge at portals within Harold Interlocking [to] provide direct connections to Main Line & Pt. Washington Br. tracks. The remaining 2 tracks will tunnel beneath Harold's tracks and tie into Sunnyside Yard's Loop tracks to allow access to a new layup yard in Yard A.
Huh. I wonder if my source got the layup-yard tracks confused for Super Express tracks. I gotta admit, it kinda sounded too good to be true.
How recent is your info?
frankly I can't see where the 2 super express tracks would go as there is 6 LIRR tracks from Harold thru Woodside with little or no room for expansion.
IIRC, the Super Express has been described as a single track. Is there ONE more trackway possible?
The info is from around mid-November. A project manager was on my train and I dropped him off at Harold. Had a chance to pick his brain a little. Said that Harold will undergo a dramatic reconstruction with new bridges and flying junctions. Re: # of trackways, NO additional space east of Harold to Win Curve (where Pt.Wash. tracks curve due east) however, east of that point, room still exists on both the north & south sides (abandoned Rockaway Beach tracks) to a point east of 63d Drive in Rego Park.
Sorry, I didn't realize the Super express was to be a single track.
Said that Harold will undergo a dramatic reconstruction with new bridges and flying junctions.
I thought they just entirely replaced the Harold Interlocking in the past 5 years. I remember it being one of those July-Labor Day projects that totally screwed up LIRR schedules in late summer. Does this mean they'll redo it AGAIN entirely ???
Yeeeshhhh.
I'm curious. Does anyone know what the minimum radius is on any curve in the NYC subway system? I've heard 125 feet but I'm not sure if that was referring to the absolute worst curve in the system.
Also, what's considered a "comfortable" radius? That is, one that wouldn't cause excessive slowdown even for 75 foot cars, and presumably would be used for any new construction (such as 2nd Ave to turn onto 125th St, or to connect with the Nassau St line if that ever happens).
Since the prior thread had become so lengthy, I decided to move it up.
My nominees for the most dilapidated revenue stations on the subway are the 53rd Street/Lexington Avenue station on the E/V and the infamous BMT Chambers Street station.
If anyone has visited the 53rd/Lex station, you know what I mean. This station has long been scheduled for renovation but so far, nothing has been done other than an extremely ugly and amateurish slathering of whitewash on the station's curved walls. Stalagtites hang from the ceiling dripping fluids (water? I hope) and the entire station smells like fecal material. Its an awful place to wait for a train.
Chambers is bad too, but at least its clean and it still has that fascinating abandoned side platform in plain view.
I admit your two are very bad, but I want to get a plug in for my #1 train (and only the #1, may we never see the #9 again). The 191 St Station is pretty crappy, maybe not the worst, but honorable mention.
It's a tough call, but I think both of you are right. Of the stations I've been to, I believe 191st Street on the (1) and Lexington Avenue on the (E) & (V) are the least acceptable in the system.
...and no, its not just water. It smells like that down there for a reason. Many sewers in the City are just vitrified clay installed in the 19th Century, and you can imagine how poorly that holds up. Shhhh....
MATT-2AV
I noticed that a few of the sign plates on the columns at Chambers WTC are missing. Are people sick enough to be snagging them as WTC memorabilia? Or have they been missing awhile?
They stopped putting station signs on every column some years ago. In most cases it is every second or third column that has a sign.
Peace,
ANDEE
This is the same article that was picked up by the Middletown (CT) Press on Jan 18th., BUT I don't see the last dozen parr.
Mr rt__:^)
Does anyone know if the ancient "TIMES SQVARE" sign is still up on the 7 line's Times Square station?
I dunt get it. Vot is special about zat sign?
I hear that Marcvs Camby of the Knicks uses that station sometimes.
Is it still vp or not?
It's a very good usage of the alphabet. V was originally the capital of u.
So two men are arguing about the pronunciation of "Hawaii." Finally one of them asks a bystander how to pronounce it.
Man: "Excuse me, sir. Is it pronounced "ha-WY-ee" or "ha-VI-ee".
Bystander: "ha-VI-ee."
Man: "There you see! I was right! Thank you, sir!"
Bystander: "You're Velcome."
It has nothing to do with pronunciation, unless you are studying Latin phonology.
Also, the letter U, as well as J, are relatively new to the alphabet.
"Also, the letter U, as well as J, are relatively new to the alphabet"
Correct. That is why they were stuck at the end of the alphabet in a printers type case.
So when a "V" is used in place of a "U" they are just emulateing an earlier spelling of the word.
Elias
Is that similar to the s/f thing? Sometimes before the 19th century,s&f were used interchangably.....You see it on the Declaration of Independance and Constitution,for example....
That "f" is not an "f". In type shops we called it a "short s". If you look at the character, the cross bar of the character doesn't go to the right of the outright part of the character.
When there was a double s, the first s was a short s, and the second a regular s, so a statement would look something like this:
"I am under a lot of ftrefs."
Read
Sorry, I got it exactly backwards. The "s" that looks like an "f" is the LONG s. A regular "s" is a SHORT s.
The long s is also called a "florin."
Can you get 2 shillings for a long s?
In German there is a similar character (I forget its name) that stands for double s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
My wife (degree in German) says it is called a "schuss" or "esset".
Not sure of the spelling--looks like a sort of script "B". I think Germany is trying to modernize away from using it, but it's till common.
At least they don't do political tracts in Blackletter anymore (I think).
You mean the symbol ß!
>>>You mean the symbol ß! <<<
That looks like beta. But the German double-s resembles it.
It's likely that the symbol represents two long-esses (as in pre-Revolutionary English lettering) with a calligraphic joint at the top.
I used to work at Photo Lettering, NYC's largest type house...
www.forgotten-ny.com
My undertstanding is that the shuss is a ligature of a long "s" (florin) and a short "s" ("ess", for convenience), rather like the way "ct" and "st" were ligatured.
The following examples show a German shuss, followed by a non-ligatured florin-ess for comparison, then a double-florin ligature, followed by a double-ff for comparison. Notice the comparison of the crossbars on the double-florin and the "ff". That's your number one way to tell a florin from an "f'.
Then the last two are a florin-t ligature and a "ct" ligature for comparison.
Read enough Shakespeare in old-style type and you get real used to it.
>>> The following examples show a German shuss <<<
The ß (shuss) in German is as antiquated as the V in TIMES SQVARE. It has not been part of the written language for sixty years, but can still be seen on older street signs in place of the double "s" in Strasse. The letters with umlauts (ä, ö, ü) remain in use.
Tom
I know it's a beta - I have a fair knowledge of Greek.
I think that there are still a lot of older buildings which have their name as " BVILDING" etched into their stone.
-- Ed Sachs
I can think of two or three in the Midwood section of Brooklyn that do that (on Ocean Avenue, somewhere around Avenue H(otel)
Stuart, RLine86Man
So is the sign still up or not????
Think so
One of my frequent hangouts growing up was the American Mvsevm of Natvral History (original entrance on 77th Street).
ANd don't forget HISTORY OF THE WORLD PART 1 "you are nuts!!! N-V-T-S Nuts"!!!!!
I used to work with a head teller at the bank who used to get money from the Wault every day and go on Wacation to WancouWer.
I asked her if she watched Surwiwor to see whot gets woted off!!
I used to go there quite often myself. Got a big kick out of the dinosaur skeletons. Not to mention the manual elevators. An even bigger kick was watching the subway entrance in the basement and seeing an express train streak past.
Yes, that subway exhibit in the basement was always a lot of fun. But why did it cost an extra admission fee to get into that section of the museum?
What exactly are you talking about? A subway exhibit? Live?
Vell, vot vood you vant it to do, take cold showvers?
The 28th Street station on Lex has tile signs that say "SVBWAY".
Are those signs still there? Which platform?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Chambers St (BMT) under the Municipal Building has an entrance signed "Svbway Entrance".
--Mark
Yes, but you can't enter there - it's been covered by a grating as long as I can remember.
subfan
"Yes, but you can't enter there - it's been covered by a grating as long as I can remember."
It was open as a regular entrance when I was in New York in April 2000.
Subfan must be thinking of the one marked EXIT ONLY.
Correct. I posted pictures of both here.
The tilework looks as if it's the work of the Guastavino brothers.
Don't you mean the Gvastauino brothers?
- Lyle Goldman
No, he probably means Gustavino.
Or Gvstauino. (:-)
And I work at an INSTITVTE. Here's a picture of MIT's "small dome" when hacked by some friends of R2D2 (no, that's not an R-2 running on track D-2!). Note the MASSACHVSETTS INSTIVTE OF TECHNOLOGY engraved on the building.
I'd like to know if it's there, and which platform it might be on.
There also vsed to be several gorgeovs enamel 'Qveensborough Plaza' signs on the QP platform. The MTA covered them with black-and-whites in its relentless vniformity campaign...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanks for all the explanations. With a bit of uncertainty, let me add this from untrustworthy memory: The V in carving has its origin in easy carving strokes. Therefore, he is IVLIVS CAESAR (or an abbreviation) in what we call capitals, because they appeared at the head (caput, capitis) of columns. East of Foley Square, one can see a church with such capitals across the top of the columns. For a period of time, Romans used waxed boards for messages, and those strokes were scratched. However, manuscript writing (Greek and Latin, perhaps from the 3rd century) has softer turns than those chiseled on stone, and one sees in many manuscripts and some Latin schoolbooks all small v's written as u's. Later, the tail appeared on consonantal I's. The stone V's in New York architecture are a reflection of a phase of U.S. history when buildings were built in "classical" style and cities got named Syracuse, Utica, Rome, and Ithaca.
What is the SIRT popularly called by people and businesses on the Island nowadays? If you had a business near, say, New Dorp Station, would you or your ads says "one block from the SIRT/SIR/railroad/train/whatever station"?
Snooping around the web implies that the term "Staten Island Rapid Transit" is still fairly common. Is that what people say? Is "Staten Island Railway" or "the Railway" coming into use in common conversation?
What is the SIRT popularly called by people and businesses on the Island nowadays?
(I'm not a SI resident but ... ) a recent NYT article (last few months) said it's almost universally referred to as "the railroad" NOT the subway, and almost surely not SIRT.
I hear more and more people referring to it as "the railway". I liked the old "SIRT" designation better.
Yeah........it sounds like this: SIR-T (you "spit" with the 't')
My friends call it Da train to nowhereville (a.k.a.: Tottenville)
I've heard one SI resident refer to it as "The Train".
Just like the LIRR!
:-) Andrew
I took "the train" to Tottenville High School for 2 1/2 years and always just called it "the train".
'People' just call it 'the train' Businesses refer to not the railroad itself, but to North and South Railroad Ave/Railroad St.
-Hank
Curremt Examples:
"Take the Staten Island Ferry to the Staten Island Rapid Transit. Take the Staten Island Rapid Transit to the Clifton Avenue station (3rd stop). Walk to Willow Avenue"--www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/nypd/html/ssb/staten.html
"At the last stop on the Staten Island Rapid Transit System, the Conference House was the site of a failed Revolutionary War peace conference"--http://www.nycvisit.com/staten_map.html
"Beginning at the extension of Quintard St. and the shoreline; W. and N. on Quintard St. to Old Town Rd.; W. on Old Town Rd. to Staten Island Rapid Transit; N. on Staten Island Rapid Transit to Tompkins Ave"--http://www.nycenet.edu/hs_directory/si/New_Dorp_High_School.htm
"... Other things to do in St. George: Take a ride on the Toonerville Trolley (Staten Island Rapid Transit) from the St. George Station in the Ferry Terminal to ...""--www.preserve.org/stgeorge/stgeorge.htm
"The Great Kills Branch of The New York Public Library is located on Giffords Lane at the corner of Margaret Street, two blocks from the Staten Island Rapid Transit station."--http://www.nypl.org/branch/si/gk.html
These are all current sites, including city sites, board of ed and nypl. Gives the impression the SIRT name is still commonly used in some quarters. That's why I asked.
Gives the impression the SIRT name is still commonly used in some quarters. That's why I asked.
Understood. But of course common usage varies from officialese.
Find me an MTA website that refers to "the Lex express" ... etc. But millions of New Yorkers know what it means.
Find me an MTA website that refers to "the Lex express" ...
This one? :)
This one? :)
Well ... close! But, you get the idea.
(I was going to use "IRT," "BMT" and "IND", which I'm pretty sure don't exist on MTA sites ... but probably only us foamers and old guys actually still call 'em that .... )
30 years ago the Staten Islanders I knew called it the "Rancid Transit". But that would be slanderous nowadays; it's improved a lot.
I live on SI and its often called by my friends and other people
1. The Train
2. That Cheap Ass Train
3. The Suit Train
4. The Train that doesn't go anywhere near me
5. Its Not A Subway
6. That One Line
and I call it SIR
I just found a new sign error in the spirit of Brodaway on the G- It is on a station still being renovated but this sign is a new sign!
The sign reads:
Mabison Square Garden
At first I thought it was painted by vandals but closer looks revealed no paint- just a goof!
It is at 34th Street on the A Line.
Dyslexia?
Dyslexia?
No, just a bad head cold.
Dan
Its upper case
I photographed a large sign at the BMT 34th St/ Bway station over 10 years ago. It was the current white on black porcelain signs of today. It was at the southern end of the station and had PCRR pointing to the stairs.
That's PCRR as in Penn Central Railroad !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Great find! Where in the station is this?
Today's Daily News has a story about Bob's problems with nycDOT.
This one's a bit more negitive, i.e. they intend to close him down vs. just withhold further funding.
Mr rt__:^)
Link here
If this is a TEA-21 Transportation Enhancement project BHRA is working on, then the program certainly provides non-cash alternatives for meeting the local portion of the funds. Info here. However, if BHRA is working with a different grant program, then it could be more restrictive what the local match can consist of.
That is STATE D.O.T. that will accept labor and parts, what about CITY D.O.T. that wants $90,000 cash??
Let's start a school PENNIES campaign ... $90,000 in PENNIES oughta fix the old hammerheads ... he he he ...
Here's the latest on the saga of the "Local Match". Now the NYC DOT says the $90,000 cash is "required" because-- get ready for this one--I allegedly signed a "contract" last year "agreeing" to pay the cash.
Here's the punch line- City DOT cant find this alleged "contract" because it does not exist !!
Bob D.
P.S. I hear more press is coming soon.
Wowsers ... Mayor Mike should put this story out of its misery before it becomes HIS story ... I'm not a professional appraiser, but the "scrap" would be worth more than $90,000 in my eyes and the EXTREME work you all have done on it looks to be worth a whole lot more. I don't impress easily and yet there I was after seeing the footage on channel 5 ... here's hoping that someone in City Hall comes to their senses and just puts it through after realizing the value that's ALREADY there ...
Anything we can do for the project here?
Yes, send a fax or telegram to Mayor Mike. Anyone have a Greenbook handy- the fax number is probably in there.
Thanks for the good thoughts.
Bob D.
Sent the following to Mayor Mike ... not the most eloquent speech, but managed to get it all stuffed in before the phone line went out. :)
Congratulations on your election, it's great to have a fellow businessman in charge!
There is a group called the Brooklyn Historic Railway Assn in Brooklyn which is embroiled in a problem with NYCDOT over $90,000 in funding which as we all know is small potatoes. They're trying to develop a trolley system in downtown Brooklyn and have done an amazing amount of work given their lack of funding and several setbacks. They have COMPLETED a major portion of the work they promised to do in cooperation with the city to bring the trolleys back as a major tourist and practical attraction and now we hear upstate that the entire project may be in jeopardy over a misunderstanding between the BHRA folks and NYCDOT over $90,000.
As someone who saw the last of the trolleys disappear as a kid, I was quite excited at the possibility of having them reappear, only to have my hopes dashed by this latest magilla. I've been to the city twice since 9/11 and dropped well over a kilobuck each time to ride the subways with friends and would love to come back down once again to ride the BHRA trolley if the project is permitted to continue to fruition.
As a tourist attraction ALONE, the BHRA project is a guaranteed winner, and as practical street transportation as well only makes this project more worthy. I can promise you $1000 out of my own pocket and know of at least 16 other people that would come to the city JUST to ride the BHRA if it were to be allowed to be completed.
Is there ANY hope of whacking NYCDOT's people on the head and make them see the light? It's a small potato financial issue and I'd hate to see a genuine attraction be destroyed for a piddly $90,000 argument ...
Wow, you really hit the nail on the head with that. Maybe some miracle will happen, and Mayor Mike will get the message.
Thanks for Trying !!
Bob D.
Hey, buddy ... saw yer FACHE on the toob ... and I can tell a sincere face when I see one, especially if they resemble MY face. Heh. Seriously though, us hicks upstate think your bus without a steering wheel is the ultimate cool beans ... and yeah, we would RIDE the bitch if it was running ... and we'd come down to the city JUST to ride your bus! :)
Hey ... we can either come to BROOKLYN, NY, USA or have to save up more sheckles to fly out to San Francisco to ride a trolley ... guess which destination THIS Bronx raised boy would wanna go? Duh. :)
I hope I'm one of those 16 people. I came within a hair of making it down to Newark for the end of PCCs there, the only reason why I didn't make it was because of the mess going on at my end at the time, and I'd certainly make the trip to New York to ride streetcars there on a new line. It isn't necessary to go to San F. to ride streetcars either, we've got 252 streetcars operating on 11 lines here with two PCCs available for fan trips and Toronto's a lot closer to any point in New York state than San Francisco. And a lot cheaper too with the Canadian dollar the way it is...
-Robert King
Please respond with your Name and ZIP Code
John J. Blair 13212
Kevin McAleavey 12186
But seriously, break out the email, go to nyc.gov and send an email at minimum to Mayor Bloomberg and the Brooklyn Borough president ... it's not like THAT would cost you a penny and it's time well spent. Use what I posted yesterday as a starter if you want ...
I intend To send an e mail with all the names I collect here and in other places
I'll be writing them an email on Monday or whenever hotmail decides to have my account reappear, whichever is sooner.
-Robert King
Hotmail got hacked AGAIN? Quelle surprise ... :)
Who knows? What it does say is that the server holding my account is down temporarily (starting sometime Friday evening) and will be back up soon. But, it doesn't say if that particular server's down due to hacking or another reason.
-Robert King
Oh no ... Hotmail officially has NEVER been hacked ... you have to read about it elsewhere. :)
Robert A. King M4R 1L6
William Mangahas 11758
Stuart D. P. Guberman 11228
Stuart, RLine86Man
Count me in.
Paul Polischuk 11222
Nope ... the 16 folks are mostly CSX and CP employees from here where I live ... might want to fire off a letter to Mayor Bloomberg and Brooklyn Borough President Goldin yourself ... the more the merrier, the bigger the stink, the squeakier the wheel ... in New York, it's mob rule (heh) so join da mob! :)
Bob diamond should contact the Department of Investigation concerning this matter. They will get to the bottom of this matter. DOI is the oversight agency for city agencies. They just love to hold DOT to the gril
Someone suggested DOI a few days ago, its starting to look more and more like a good idea now.
Bob D.
>>Here's the punch line- City DOT cant find this alleged "contract" because it does not exist !!<<
Bob D,
I know this is a stretch, but remember when you had that problem with the tugboat ramming the dock last year ? It was said that local organized crime didn't want to see the area gentrified with a trolley line, do you think there may be some sort of "influence" in city government to kill this project ? That's referring to the contract that doesn't exist.
Bill "Newkirk"
Its interesting you should mention organized crime in relation to stopping this project-- your about the 12th person this week to think that-- including a major TV anchor person. More on that later- if the time comes.
Bob D.
I've been thinking about the organized crime angle a little bit and I think there may be cause for concern.
Let's say this business with the DOT is cleard up one way or another and the project proceeds but organized crime is responsible for causing the problem with the DOT and the tugboat attack earlier, I'd be quite afraid that they'd try again to have to have the streetcar project killed by any means available having tried unsuccessfully twice before. If this is true, and it is a mighty big if, it means that there is the risk that something extreme could be done like setting fire to the BHRA's workshops and stored PCCs and burning the whole thing down.
-Robert King
Well, I guess having alot of press is sort of like having "fire insurance"-- here's an analog--
When someone switches on the kitchen light, all the cockroaches and other vermin tend to run for cover. The homeowner will then tend to get the vermin problem under control.
Bob D.
Yep ... that was pretty much Fox's conclusion too which is the reason why I posted the emotionals I did about it ... NYCDOT is out to KILL the project and they reacted with GLEE their "show us da money" ... like I said, what *BALLS* ...
5:33 P.M. at 28th St/7 Ave yesterday, heading downtown, was a train heading downtown, making local stops, signed as "S." It looked like the side signs of the first 5 cars were set to "Special;" the last 5 were properly signed for the 1. The lead car was 1856, Van Cortlandt stickers. Any plausible explanations? Wild guesses?
Your guess is as good as any. Regards.
Your guess is as good as any. Regards.
My own stab in the dark is that they were Dyre shuttle cars that were lashed up with 5 others for 1 service... but I would think someone would have changed the end sign by 5:00 P.M. :)
Middays for a few weeks, the 1 terminates at Utica and two shuttle trains run (single-track part of the way) to New Lots. This was probably one of the shuttle trains, and whoever had the enviable task of cranking the rollsigns was cut short by the starting bell.
Just a guess. Was the north terminal "Special" and the south terminal "New Lots Ave"?
So I've been doing some research into the problems that plaque the Chambers Street Station (Nassau Street Line) With the plumbing problems, the lighting, the cleaning, the tile fixing, the stair case fixing, the platform redoing, the signal and track fixing. This is easily gonna cost more then $50 million to do. Can anyone assist me in fiding out a rough estimate of what an entire super rehab to the station would cost.
It could be done for a few thousand bucks, but chances are the government and the unions wouldn't let that happen. I'd guess $20 mil.
Oh come on, I couldn't fix up my house for under $100K
So far my try at creating a route for BVE has failed misrably. It seems I cant get it right. Can anyone help me out, I'm trying to create the Second Avenue Line Routes (5) for BVE so that everyone can see what my line will look like. Would anyone be able to lend a hand to help me with creating this line?
I'd offer but time is hard to come by and I'm just getting my feet wet at it myself. It's NOT that hard though it's VERY time consuming getting things to land where you expect them ... the coordinates and what lands where based on the choice for one track can be ... disconcerting at times and tangled ... keep at it ... you'll find the tricks soon enough ...
There's some decent tutorial here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
IN my oppinion All Cars should be given the MTA stripes back, And the 40M-68s should get the black fronts that they were delivered with(even though the 68s never had any)
Unh-uh.
What is the DOT doing involved in a museum and/or transit operation? These people are the autmobile/road guys. The MTA is responsible for transit, even buses, which use the roads in a similar way to the way the BHRA trolleys would. (I don't know what agency is responsible for museums.)
Let the DOT concern themselves with the roads, and leave the BHRA to the MTA and/or the Dept. of Cultural Affairs. Anyway, there's probably a greater source of funding at the MTA, which is a state agency, than at the city DOT.
(And yes, I know there's a similar situation with the Manny-B and Willy-B, in that the MTA has no control over maintaining their railways on those bridges, since the bridges are DOT, not MTA. This is just as illogical and also causes headaches for transit.)
...And before you jump in, I am aware of the fact that some so-called "private" bus companies are overseen by DOT, not MTA. The difference is that BHRA is a rail operation...
The difference is that BHRA is a rail operation...
...which would be street-running. Since laying tracks, signals, etc. requires digging up streets, it's DOT.
Point is, since DOT seems uniterested, why not try to garner MTA jurisdiction over the project? Especially since the trolleys will connect with the "downtown Brooklyn Transit Hub"? If there were still public transit trolley lines in NYC, undoubtedly they would be MTA. This project should be "grandfathered" in that vain.
If there were still public transit trolley lines in NYC, undoubtedly they would be MTA.
That's an intriguing "what if." I'd guess that BRT trolleys would fall under the MTA umbrella, but the streetcar companies in the lineage of the private bus companies would most likely have DOT franchises. BHRA being a private operator, it would still be a DOT franchise. Even for MTA trolleys, I still think that DOT would control the infrastructure, just as the MTA has no responsibility for the upkeep of the roads on which its buses travel.
..the streetcar companies in the lineage of the private bus companies would most likely have DOT franchises.
I guess it would depend on who operated the streetcar lines when they were abandoned. It is well known that in cities around the country, L.A. for example, the streetcar lines were bought up by puppet companies of the oil, rubber and auto industry so they could be "modernized" to become bus lines. Later, when transit in general became unprofitable, the responsibility for the operation of the bus lines was dumped on the cities (and in some cases, like New York, eventually, the states). But pretend the trolley lines were not bought up by the auto-related industry. Pretend they avoided takeover by Detroit and survived as private companies. Although the city took ownership of the subway in New York in 1940(ish), what I don't know is when the bus lines became publicly owned. I'm guessing that the entity who would have jurisdiction over trolley lines depends on the time at which the agency which evolved into the MTA took over the majority of the bus lines. How long did private bus lines (which evolved from trolley lines) survive before becoming publicly owned?
Duh. I just found Joe Brennan's Bus History page on this website.
Back to the original question: What is the DOT doing involved in a museum and/or transit operation?
I'm not privy to the grant program(s) BHRA is dealing with, but it is likely the TEA-21 Transportation Enhancement Program (TEP). This program is federally funded by the Federal High Way Administration (FHWA) and administered by local DOT according to the provisions of the TEA-21 statute. So, if you are a non-highway entity that got TEP money, you have no choice but to work with the DOT.
Here at TMNY, we haven't received any TEP money (yet) but we did get a TEA-21 Recreational Trails Program grant. This is another 80% federally funded program but in New York State at least it is administered by the Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation department. You can see what we are doing with our grant here.
In addition to that, BMT trolleys and busses were bought by the city with the rest of the BMT in 1940, the city also bought Staten Island's busses (which were trolleys up to some point) in 1948, and the North Shore Bus Company in Queens (don't know if those were ever trolleys).
Q. Why did the trolley cross the road?
A. To cheese off NYCDOT ...
DOTheads?
For that matter, what is the MTA doing running the toll bridges arround NYC?
(Don't bother. I know. I know.)
:-) Andrew
The whole point of the MTA was to use the TBTA toll surplus to subsidize transit instead of having Moses build new approach roads and bridges.
I was trolling through this website and came across a couple of photos of BMT Q-cars sitting in Bush Yard waiting to be scrapped.
http://www.nycsubway.org/yards/scrap/qscrap3.jpg
The cars certainly look like junk, but do any of the area railway museums have plans to salvage the trucks, control systems, air or other fixtures? Just curious...
Frank Hicks
The interior looks worse than the outsides: http://ltvsquad.com/Missions/Other/QCar/Woodcars.php
I hear the some of the trucks are to be saved for the museum fleet. give the looks of everything else those, it's a wonder they're still intact at all.
I have some pictures of the interior on my website as well:
Scrapped Q Cars
-Harry
ah, looks as though you got to see them without the mexicans being 'home'. nice shots.
The only ones getting inside the cars are the 6 mexican fellows (des nudos and sons) living inside not too long ago
LT going hoboriffic style. I have to get that photo of that one naked next to the train online again. i actually managed to sell a copy of that shot. maybe i can give it a nice artsy name like 'naked hobo on a warm summer evening".
I have plenty nudos hobos shots how come i aint gettin loot, eh yo joe, u gotta help me sell some of my shots i got nice ones.
hoboriffictrainporn.com? Yipe. :)
good idea!
see that's where it is at - you can sell all the hobo nude photos you want if you make it a porn site. porn is the only type of dot com that has made money from day one.
more photos of the BMT cars:
http://www.urbanlens.com/files/subwood/subwood.html
(the nude and lewd courtesy of The Joe)
The trucks are Peckham 40MCB, a style peculiar to Brooklyn.
The Transit Museum is supposed to retain them if the cars
are scrapped. Almost all other important under-car equipment
was long since picked clean, ditto master controllers and M19
brake stands.
Why are there 3 BMT Q cars at 36th street yard waiting to be scrapped?
Why aren't they at CI for work? I would like to see that happen. Hell, I'll fix them myself, even if it takes years. I hate to see history waste away.
There's nothing left to fix! Come on, look at the pictures!
Those are no longer Q type cars. They are severely deteriorated
car shells.
The Sao Paulo Metro is building a brand new line, Line 4-Yellow. I believe consstruction has alreay started, but I'm not completely sure. The line will be a total 12.8 km long, and have 12 stations. The first phase will be 5 stations long. There are downloadable PowerPoint Presentations, which are excellent. They show station diagrams, plans, and other good stuff. My focus is on Chapter 4 Demanda Futura, look at the projected ridership figures for the Phase 1:
Station-Riders/day
Butanta-121,000
Paulista-234,300
Pinheiros-234,960
Republica-173,360
Luz-201,350
Total-964,970
Can you believe nearly one million people are expected to use a five station line??? Would you like to be caught during that rush hour? The numbers are believable, because they already carry 2.3 million people a day on a mere 30 route miles. I can't think of any place with such a high, concentrated ridership.
well, only one. See this site for rankings
>>http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-wrail.htm<<
ranking by warm bodies per mile operated.
See this site for rankings
>>http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-wrail.htm<<
Fascinating reading on this site.
They define Metro and LRT according to grade separation (Metros grade separated, LRTs not). By that reckoning, Cleveland, which they call a metro, is an LRT because the Shaker Heights line isn't grade separated; and London Docklands, which they call an LRT and which calls itself a Light Railway, is a metro becasue it *is* grade separated! The London Croydon system, which actually is an LRT by their definition, isn't mentioned at all -- but perhaps that's excusable since it only opened up in summer 2000.
I know about that already. I was thinking for the just that line. If you the riders for the year 241,242,500 (964,970 peoplex250 days) divided for the miles of Phase 1 (5.58mi, 9km), you get 43.23 million people per mile, which blows away Hong Kong. Doing it for the whole system, though, it doesn't surpass Hong Kong.
As many of you saw two of the redbird barge photos that I posted a few days ago, I organized my whole set on a webpage at www.nyrail.org. Click on the top link in the "updates" column. Sorry to make you guys go though my main page first, but I want you all to see my redesigned logo and main page.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
You do a nice job over there!
Keep it up, your efforts are greately appreciated...
Marc
And thankyou...got to see the bungee jump of Engine Brake Land firsthand. CI Peter
On the 39th Street (Harold Avenue) Bridge in Sunnyside, which was reconstructed in the early 1990s, there's an abandoned brick building which looks like it is connected to abandoned warehouses. On the front of the building are the chiseled words
American Railway Express
What was it?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Railway Express was basically a parcel/package company similar to United Parcel Service....except that their "mainline" shipping was done in Railway Express cars on passenger trains. Generally they were painted green, had the red and white logo on them, and they usually had shipping points in major railway passenger stations. I believe they went out of business in the 1960's.
Railway Express did not die. It was renamed REA long ago and recently purchased by FedEx. It is now "FedEx Ground".
Having grown up in Sunnyside, not far from the 39th Bridge, I remember that there was a ramp on the east side of the bridge that went down into the railyards. At the bottom of the ramp was a building where I supposed the packages were sorted and transferred between trucks and railcars.
That building is still visible today. It is in the part of the yard where Amtrak stores its equipment.
Are you sure you aren't thinking of RPS - Roadway Package Something? I'm almost positive that's where FedEx Ground came from. When RPS started out, there were this really half-assed competition for UPS - 2+ weeks from Boston to NJ, no tracking to speak of. I (and many other purchasing people) would say "any method but RPS" when asked how we'd like products shipped. But by the time they got bought, they really had their act together.
I could be mixing them up.
"FedEx GROUND" is an amusing name for a company that nominally uses planes. Discuss amongst yourselves, insert your own punchline here. :)
REA most certainly DID die a couple decades ago.
The one that became part of Fedex was ROADWAY Express....the one that had the blue and orange trucks.
An old time SHIPPING company much like UPS or FedEx ... their specialty was shipping stuff by TRAIN and then trucking it to the end customer ... also known as "Railway Express" - I was in that building when it was still part of a viable company. They went out of business somewhere in the vicinity of 1970 or so ... they were bigger than Cooper Jarrett or McLean Trucking at the time. Big operation.
it's called a library, go use one.
<<>>
Thanks, The Joe, but I'm not understanding the hostility. So sorry for being a schmuck for asking a question in Subtalk, and I hope to never, never offend you again. Can you ever forgive me? Oh, please, please, The Joe.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Been reading about all the LIRR to GCT and Second Ave subway plans.
Let's say NYC's finances slide into the state they were in in the 1970s. Will these expensive items still get built? Bloomie has already canceled the stadiums. (-a)...
I.e., are these subway/LIRR connections considered luxuries, like the stadiums (-a) or necessities (as I believe they are)...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The stadium plan will be back. Give it a year to quiet down then Bloomberg will announce a plan that's all his and not the 11th hour plan of the former Mayor. I figure that the Yankees are a big enough "threat" that you can't promise them something then renege on it, without some plan up your sleeve.
Give it a year to quiet down then Bloomberg will announce a plan that's all his and not the 11th hour plan of the former Mayor. I figure that the Yankees are a big enough "threat" that you can't promise them something then renege on it, without some plan up your sleeve.
Could be, but I hope you're wrong. One of the interesting things about Bloomberg is that he's a businessman. He is surely aware of the studies that show that 20 years of municipal investment in stadia has produced lousy ROI. Certainly the city will kick in SOME money toward rehabs of the existing facilities. But I'd bet against Rudy's "do anything at any cost to keep sports teams" mentality. There are simply better ways to spend limited $$$. And Bloomberg knows VERY well how to calculate best usage for limited investment dollars. He's our first businessman mayor in quite awhile.
The Yankees are no threat - that's just the thing - they have NOWHERE else to go right now...Giuliani was bidding against himself throughout his term b/c he was a big Yankee cheerleader. I'm a big Yankee fan, but even I'll admit the ex-mayor was really goofy about it.
The public should never have to pay for a stadium anyway - the money spent to build it is never recouped - studies have been done. Besides - if building a stadium was financially smart, the owners would build them themselves, instead they sucker the public into doing it. It's all a prestige issue - "I was the Mayor who brought hockey to Phoenix" or "I was the Mayor who built a new stadium in NYC" - that's all it is.
I certainly don't want a New Yankee Stadium to be built. If anything, renovate it again like they did 26 years ago. As far as public money being used, the plan right now is for that to be a loan..the money will need to be payed back at a rate of $50 million per year. -Nick
I don't have a problem with a new Yankee Stadium being built, but let $teinbrenner do the building. I also think that the city should NOT sign a renewal lease on the facility. The city should sell it to $teinbrenner at the market rate.
"I also think that the city should NOT sign a renewal lease on the facility. The city should sell it to $teinbrenner at the market rate."
Having control of both Yankee and Shea Stadiums is a good idea for New York City. That way, it can be used by the city anytime without waiting for Steinbrennar's permission, and if that permission were necessary it may come with a price. Do you think it's any coincidence that Shea has been used as a disaster relief station for 9/11 and other events, and the firefighters memorial less than 2 weeks after 9/11 was in Yankee Stadium? And don't forget that The Yankees played in Shea for two years (in 1974 and 1975) while Yankee Stadium was being renovated. Sure, permission by the owners could have probably been granted by the owners, but not without hassle, and maybe not always for free. If NYC is going to be a real consideration for the 2012 Summer Olympics (whether new stadiums are built or the old ones are renovated), the less middle men that the Olmpic committee has to go through, the more NYC will seem like a good place to be a host. -Nick
Hint to $teingrabber ... Mayor Mike is *NOT* a Yankee fan ... proceed with caution or the next subway series MIGHT be on PATH. :)
*lmfao*
Been reading about all the LIRR to GCT and Second Ave subway plans.
Let's say NYC's finances slide into the state they were in in the 1970s. Will these expensive items still get built?
Of course not. Until they are built and running, there is no certainty. Only if there was an absolutely dedicated source of funding (like an irrevocable appropriation from the Federal government) these and almost anything else can suspended until the funding is brought in.
Look at the LIRR Jamaica Station. Reconstruction of the trackage and interlocking was a super high priority. Then the State told the LIRR that they had spent too much money building the Hillside Facility so they weren't going to get the money for Jamaica. The LIRR response: "Gee, Jamaica isn't as important as we thought it was."
Been reading about all the LIRR to GCT and Second Ave subway plans.
Let's say NYC's finances slide into the state they were in in the 1970s. Will these expensive items still get built? Bloomie has already canceled the stadiums. (-a)...
I.e., are these subway/LIRR connections considered luxuries, like the stadiums (-a) or necessities (as I believe they are)...
My view: The stadiums are fluff, nothing but giveaways to wealthy crybaby team owners. Public financing of stadiums and arenas is one of the more odious trends that has developed in the last decade or so. The LIRR to GCT connection is important, but not what I'd call vital. Its main effect, as far as I can tell, would be making the eastern part of Midtown more attractive to commuters, which is fine except that the eastern part of Midtown is nearly fully developed already. Then again, the lower level of the 63rd Street tunnel shouldn't just go to waste. Finally, the Second Avenue line is easy to categorize - it's absolutely vital.
Cars 6746-55 made 2 round trips this evening to Flatbush Av. These are being prepped for service. As I look to another New Tech Train joing the active roster, I wonder how much more time will Redbirds have on the 2. Probably not much.
Also, one of those soon to be gone sights - an R-26/28/29 set made an appearance on the 2 today.
-Stef
> an R-26/28/29 set made an appearance on the 2 today.
I saw this headed downtown at Wall St. around 7:05 pm. There was at least one pair in the 785x range..
Dave:
Only ones left are 7856/7857.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
There was R26/28/29 set on the deuce on Monday. Also yesterday, there was a R142 heading down into 207St yard. Hmmm, I wonder what is was doing there? I havent seen R142s outside at 207 for a while now.
Those may very well be the last of the R-26/28/29s.
There are a few R-26/28/29's on the Dyre Avenue, in fact I rode car number 7770, the lead car this evening I thought this car would be gone by now this train had some 77's and 78's also.
Lord please NUKE the #5s cuz i don't speak Russian and can't stand another day of Rottenboid Undercar. CI Peter
Oh don't worry. Your day is coming my good man. A mothballed set entered service this week, and another should be on the way shortly.
Shall I lead you to the spiked punch (sorry South Ferry)?
-Stef
Are there any pictures of the unused portion of the 63rd street tunnel?
National Geographic had a couple a few years ago in their "underneath New York" article, along with the water tunnels and other photos.
Newsday had pictures as well, although you need to get a password to get in. It also depends if they still have them on their site as well.
Story HERE.
Peace,
ANDEE
CP Rail SD40-2s 5698 & 5421 have just delivered R142s numbered 6766-6770 to NY&A Fresh Pond Yard.
Shawn.
These cars have just left NY&A Fresh Pond yard and are on their way to NYCT property. The flats went up earlier in the afternoon on the northbound CP Rail train.
Shawn.
6766-6770 has arrived at E 180 Barn as of Fri Jan 25 at 11:30PM.
Also another R 142 Update 6491-95 is at Unionport. I wasn't able to see any numbers on the other 5 car unit.
If they are there, perhaps they've been fixed. As it stands, 6431-35 and 6466-70 are off the disabled list and are finally rolling with passengers this week. This will make that Juice Guy real happy. Heh.
-Stef
I'm sure Juice will be real happy. The rumor is the No.5 will start running R142's in March. I expect they will start calling the old timers on the No.5 Line for R142 school car in the near future.
Wasnt 6491-6500 at CCYD? Looks like they come out of hibernation........
Maybe 6491-6500 was the set I saw at 207 earlier this week?
I'm sorry I couldn't see it. I was awaiting the arrival of a northbound deuce at 59th St, while the diesels were pushing these cars into the barn. Oh well! You can't have 'em all....
-Stef
According to NY1 the TA says the name will remain World Trade Center.
Peace,
ANDEE
NY1 also says promotional MetroCards will return! When I see bulletins, I will post the info.
They have already, I already have 1 with them, with the Paint the Town Red white and blue campaign. So its started already.
I think that there is two different virsion of the car. I saw a pitchure of one at a 7-11 strore this moring. It look different then the other one that I have.
Robert
I think the difference is the absence of the CitySearch reference on the bottom ... haven't seen one, but heard about it.
Mr rt__:^)
The NY Daily News did a piece on the return of Promotional MetroCards in their Business section last week.
I gave the piece to Thurston. Maybe he'll let us in on the details.
BMTman
Not too much detail in the 1/18 Daily News article by Peter Donohue:
["We think we can exploit this medium much more then we have in the past", sid MTA official Roco Krsulic.
Subway riders gave mixed reviews yesyerday to the idea ...]
Mr rt__:^)
WOW!! This recovery and resuming of business as usual with slight diversions is happening sooner than I thought!!! GOOD!!!! Tony
Here's a news article about it. The plan is massive by modern standards. I think it would be really wonderful if Baltimore could get a first rate subway. I hope it doesn't get derailed by the usual things.
Any thoughts?
http://www.lightrail.com/news/news02-01-24-1.htm
Mark
Any thoughts?
$5 billion sounds very, very low for all of this. Even if 80% of the 52 new miles of track are above ground, I can't imagine they could build that 10 miles of underground tunnel for a "mere" $5 billion.
Also curious how many people would be served by this scheme (service radius) in comparison to the number of people served by NYC region's high-$$$ projects (LIRR East Side Access, Second Ave Subway, etc.)? IIRC, there are federal metrics for people served and cost per person served that are used to rank transit projects and their funding applications.
I guess I'd be shocked if the bulk of this gets built in our lifetimes.
"$5 billion sounds very, very low for all of this. Even if 80% of the 52 new miles of track are above ground, I can't imagine
they could build that 10 miles of underground tunnel for a "mere" $5 billion."
The costy estimate is actually quite reasonable, and would be especially so if some of this can be done as "cut and cover" or open trench construction. Costs in New York are inherently higher; costs for under-river tunnelling are higher still.
AirTrain, above ground, is getting a brand new and extensive terminal system, plus a little over 8 total miles of track for $1.9 billion. That's about $237 million per mile. If you deduct $400 million for the Jamaica Terminal, whose costs are partly tied to MTA costs, you get $1.5 billion for eight miles, or less than $200 million per mile.
Most likely nothing will be done.
This "plan" is nothing more than a 21st Century dust-off of a plan proposed in 1962 using PCC trains on the existing and to be improved streetcar system.
Nothing happened.
The original subway plan from 1973 called for a multi-spoked system with legs to all sections of the metro area. We wound up with a single line.
The Light Rail was built because William Donald Schaefer wanted it done. He was the "do-it-now" man who spent years as Baltimore's Mayor and became Governor. It got built - mostly because it serves the two sports palaces that WDS championed.
The Maryland Transit Administration runs MARC, the Baltimore Subway, the Light Rail and the bus system. They are in reality a bus company with some rail operations. There is no vision at the William Donald Schaefer Building, where the MTA Headquarters are.
They can't get the Light Rail double tracked in less than seven years (their claim) and the work hasen't even started yet. They east side and Social Security light rail lines have been talked about since 1991. No dirt has ever been turned.
I've been riding and watching the Baltimore transit scene since the 1950's. I'm not expecting anything either in my lifetime or my children's.
I'm not gloomy, just a realist.
The head of the Maryland Highway Contractors Association was more skeptical.
"Our main concern is not so much the capital costs of the system but whether they're going to be self-sustaining," said Brian Holmes, the group's director. "How are they going to pay for it?"
Look who decided to prance along denouce it. An unbiased (hah) member of the highway conctractors club. Maybe he'd like to explain how the highways he builds are self-sustaining.
I am originally from Baltimore and during the summer of 2000 I rode the Metro subway every day to work in downtown Baltimore. The system is 15.5 miles long with 14 stations and takes about 25-30 minutes to ride. It is an efficient operation that provides speedy service from the northwest suburb of Owings Mills to the downtown area. I believe that current ridership is about 40-50,000 weekdays, which seems fairly significant for such a short line. For railfans it offers a decent mix of expressway median, at-grade, elevated, and tunnel running. It is the only by-product of an extensive 1970s regional rail system plan (a la Washington DC). While the newly released plans do resemble that one, I can only hope that the relatively newfound respect for rail transit around the country and Maryland's role as a leader in "smart growth" can make these plans more of a reality this time around.
To me the most logical ways to expand the system (at least at first) would be to branch off and extend the current heavy rail line. The current eastern terminus is in the midst of the world-renowned Johns Hopkins Hospital complex in East Baltimore and is just a few short blocks from the NEC (which is elevated through this portion of the city). Perhaps it would be possible to take advantage of this right-of-way to get the line eastward through the city and out to the tremendous suburban growth area of White Marsh (adjacent to the heavily traveled I-95 commuter corridor). On the west side a line could branch off the main line at Lexington Market, where the subway line and the light rail line already interchange (albeit quite poorly). Heading due west from Lexington Market ther is already a short freeway segment with a median originally designed for rapid transit as well as space in the median of I-70 where it mysteriously begins in the midst of a park-and-ride near the Social Security Administration headquarters. This corridor has also been one cited for heavy or light rail expansion over the years. Perhaps these two extensions could be built cheaper and quicker than completely new ROWs and could take advantage of the excess capacity in the cross-downtown subway.
For the trendy waterfront areas east of downtown I would recommend some sort of streetcar-style operation, perhaps similar to the Portland Streetcar. The existing Central Light Rail line is a pathetic line that takes forever to get you nowhere - worse yet are the extensive single-track segments and the 17-minute all day (including rush-hour) headways. While a double-tracking project is supposedly in the works, the circuitous route still serves stations that are not convenient to any real destinations. In the long term it would be desirable to build an underground heavy rail line to the east of the light rail line to serve the Charles St./York Rd. corridor, including Penn Station, Baltimore Museum of Art, Johns Hopkins University, Loyola College, Notre Dame College of Maryland, Belvedere Square, St. Joseph's Medical Center, Towson University, downtown Towson, and Goucher College.
I'd love to hear back from any "Baltimorons" with thoughts on these plans or anyone else who wants to look at a map and some web sites to evaluate what Baltimore has and what Baltimore needs.
Here's a repeat of what I posted earlier:
Most likely nothing will be done.
This "plan" is nothing more than a 21st Century dust-off of a plan proposed in 1962 using PCC trains on the existing and to be improved streetcar system.
Nothing happened.
The original subway plan from 1973 called for a multi-spoked system with legs to all sections of the metro area. We wound up with a single line.
The Light Rail was built because William Donald Schaefer wanted it done. He was the "do-it-now" man who spent years as Baltimore's Mayor and became Governor.
It got built - mostly because it serves the two sports palaces that WDS championed.
The Maryland Transit Administration runs MARC, the Baltimore Subway, the Light Rail and the bus system. They are in reality a bus company with some rail operations. There is no vision at the William Donald Schaefer Building, where the MTA Headquarters are.
They can't get the Light Rail double tracked in less than seven years (their claim) and the work hasen't even started yet. They east side and Social Security light rail lines have been talked about since 1991. No dirt has ever been turned.
I've been riding and watching the Baltimore transit scene since the 1950's. I'm not expecting anything either in my lifetime or my children's.
I'm not gloomy, just a realist.
The new cable is too short! Point your browsers to ny1's website:
http://www.ny1.com/ny/NewsBeats/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=2&subtopicintid=5&contentintid=18431
Why don't they just shut it down already.
Believe it or not, there is customer demand, just like there is for buses that run the same route as a subway.
Admittedly, the demand is likely to be a lot less now that there is reliable and predictable subway service, and even a free transfer to the Lex at 63rd/60th.
You can't be serious.
Because it's an icon of New York; the world's only commuter tramway, and believe it or not, people still take it to go to work (before the 63rd St line opened, it was the only way to get to Manhattan). It's one of the nice surprises about New York. I've taken it - great views. Why don't you ride it sometime and see for yourself?
The Cyclone at Coney Island is a maintenance monster too - would you like to shut that down also?
Unfortunately, if the Roosevelt Island Operating Corp starts to see large deficits because people finally have reliable subway service, they probably will try to close it down.
Hopefully there's enough demand from residents who work in east midtown and would rather have a view during their commute.
For starters they drop the price of the Tramway.
Remeber the TRAM was only a temporary solution. I personally like it, but not willin to subsidize it
The TRAM isn't a temporary anything. It is a tourist attraction as well as a commuter tram. It is as temporary as the subway and as temporary as Coney Island.
Are you subsidizng it? Do you live on Roosevelt Island? I wasn't aware the RIOC was getting subsidies, except specifically for its low income housing.
In the words of Homer Simpson: "D'OH!"
-- David
Chicago, IL
Old news.
-Hank
Somebody really goofed on that one. Fortunately residents have the F train, so it's not too bad.
Perhaps the MTA should take over the tram, perhaps they could do a better job running it.
I don't think you can blame this snafu on the Roosevelt Island Operating Corp, much as one might like to. It sounds like the contractor forgot to use his measuring tape correctly.
It is pretty comical (not to the folks who shell out the $$$, though).
Just like when the city bought double decker buses for Fifth Av about 25 years ago and after they got 'em they realized they wouldn't clear the traffic lights!!!
And the time MSBA (predecessor of Long Is Bus) bought articulated buses about and then realized they wouldn't fit in the old Hempstead Terminal!!!
True..true..
By the way, MSBA is still the official legal name of the agency. The new names being used are marketing names, not legal names. MTA New York City Transit is, legally, still the New York City Transit Authority. I think the MTA Staten Island Railway is still, legally, Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority.
Go to: www.th-record.com Metro-North is spending LOTS of $$$ on the line the next few years....
The URL didn't work for me.
:-) Andrew
Point your browsers to:
http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2002/01/25/jrrailro.htm
Hey, rather than telling us to point our browsers, why don't you put an HTML link in, like this:
http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2002/01/25/jrrailro.htm
- Lyle Goldman
Laziness, I guess...
I know that Trevor posted pic. of a R142 sitting at Piken yard. The car # is 6345, but as I was walking down the train last nigh I saw that the other end car # 6341 had A black end. SO are they going to fix 6345 or leave it along.
Robert
That is car 6395 that dont have the black end and it is at Concourse Yard.
Right, that what I ment to type.
Robert
Black or Silver? Whenever I hear those two colors in combination I always think of the Raiders. I used to follow them until they moved back to Oakland, but I still have a soft spot for them. And they got screwed by that rotten call by that moron up in the TV booth.
If anyone has a picture of that silver end car, please email to NNEILEF@AOL.COM.
Of all the unexpected places to see a nice color pic of SF Muni PCC car 1057 (on the historic "F" line) passing the Ferry Building clock tower at the base of Market Street during the work day ... the carton for a Hewlett Packard color LaserJet toner cartridge has gotta be one of the oddest.
If anyone wants to rush out and order one, it's for color LaserJet series 4500 and 4550, and it was black ink, part no C4191A.
Nice pic too. The car is painted in Cincinnati Street Railway colors (yellow & gray, with green stripe). The pic is very similar to the one on this page but shot from a different angle.
Funny thing about that page, they forgot to mention car 1006 also being in regular service. It's one of the double-enders originally built for San Francisco....and has been painted the older dark blue and yellow paint scheme for a few years now. I rode it in 11/2000 on a rather interesting run on the F Line (long story....one had to be there to appreciate what went on!) and then again a few months ago. Reportedly it IS going to be rehabbed again soon.
I read in one of the newspaper articles that had a link posted to it here that today is the deadline for the BHRA to give the DOT the $90,000 they want. Anyways, I was wondering if anything has emerged so far yet today?
-Robert King
There are a number of other threads going on with more detail on the subject.
Mr rt__:^)
I found out from TV news show and newspaper that homeless bums set up a camp on abandoned railroad property near the Sea Beach route. Jeffrey.
I saw the same report.......it's actually on the "LIRR" Bay Ridge Branch underneath 2nd Avenue (that's where the reporter was situated) however, the LIRR claims that that ROW is now owned by the City of New York, and it's their problem.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yeah, but that's probably a shared LIRR/NYCT right-of-way, much like the situation over at East New York where the Bay Ridge branch and the Canarsie line share the embankment over by New Lots Ave & Linden Blvd.
As we can see, when there's bad news attached to either property, the 'buck passing' begins.
BMTman
*in an all so fake French accent* But of course :-D
How much overtime would it take for a city crew, backed up by patrol officers and a police dog or two to take down the camp?
Dude, you got a suggestion for another place for them to move to? Leave em' be, when they start a fire or cause havoc, then take down their camp. Shelters are crowded and are in shitty condition.
Nobody has a perfect answer to that, Clayton, but beggars can't be choosers. If (and I emphasize if) the TA believes there's a health hazard in this encampment, or there is potential for a homeless person to get hurt (and then get a lawyer to sue the TA for it). Then they should be removed; the TA does not have to "leave them be."
You may not like the state of the shelters, Clayton, but they're plenty good enough for temporary space. Their condition is a relative thing, and you've offered an opinion (which you are entitled to, of course) which is open to debate). Yes, things get stolen, yes people get assaulted, sometimes. If it were really as bad as you say, nobody would stay in them. But they do.
Besides, shelters are not all the same. Some are city-run, some run by charities, etc.
I'm always astouded by the number of homeless I've personally witnessed tell me they are entitled to the eqiuivalent of a room at the Ritz without having lifted a finger to earn it.
Is this the TA or the MTA ROW we are talking about?
So I pay homeless (they make TA their home like me) eight bucks an hour plus one quart of Rose to do Redbird undercar while I study Boolean Algebra and the seven gates. CI Peter
Not sure, actually.
It's claimed to be the LIRR B.R.B. ROW, but THEY claim it's now the city's property.
I'm always astouded by the number of homeless I've personally witnessed tell me they are entitled to the eqiuivalent of a room at the Ritz without having lifted a finger to earn it.
Next thing you'll know, they'll be asking for a concierge and a masseuse to be assigned to the overnight E train!
Will the masseuse bring her own oil? :0)
"Yes, things get stolen, yes people get assaulted, sometimes"
In your own little shack, you can't steal our own things, and if an intruder comes into your shack, you're entitled to beat their arse.
In my shack I offer them the lead off my kilowatt plates hihi.
"In your own little shack, you can't steal our own things, and if an intruder comes into your shack, you're entitled to beat their
arse."
The key words: your own little shack. You can't have your own little shack on MTA property, so the MTA can come into your own illegal little shack and is entitled to (in a legal sense, not literally) beat your arse.
Of course, should one of the homeless decide to physically resist, the officer (and the police dog) would have some options...
Can someone say "LUNCH!!!!!" to the police dawg? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
(Dude, you got a suggestion for another place for them to move to? Leave em' be, when they start a fire or cause havoc, then take down their camp. Shelters are crowded and are in shitty condition.)
The bottom line with the homeless is that most of them are addicted or mentally ill, and so screwed up that their families can't deal with them. So instead of being in a relative's care if they can't care for themselves, they end up on the street.
No matter how much NYC spends (and it is more than anyplace else) the problem doesn't go away. In the early 1980s, NYC stuffed them in shelters. Then it spent billions to provide permanent housing for such people, neglecting the schools and transit. And now? The shelters are full again, despite all the money spent. So NYC has more troubled people than before.
The explantion, in my view, is that in much of the rest of the country the Department of Homeless services is a bus ticket out of time for the addicted and mentally ill. As long as that is the case, we'll always have people with problems in the subways, no matter how much we spent to set people up better. We just end up with more people in need of care.
They should be welcome at Train Dude land: ride the dollies, chase the big bugs and suck the lollypops. CI Peter
The explantion, in my view, is that in much of the rest of the country the Department of Homeless services is a bus ticket out of time for the addicted and mentally ill. As long as that is the case, we'll always have people with problems in the subways, no matter how much we spent to set people up better. We just end up with more people in need of care.
In other words, some cities send their homeless to New York? That's terrible!
(In other words, some cities send their homeless to New York? That's terrible!)
I believe it has traditionally been know as "Greyhound Therapy."
With the pruning of the B & D lines in July and the mandated clearing of the E trains at Canal St., it seems that most of the Skels have moved to the A train. Recently, I've been using the 5:14 A out of Far rockaway, a local A train. When I board at Penn Station, it's hard to find a single car of the 10-car consist that does not reek of rotting flesh, oozing sores, soiled clothing and human waste.
The subways have historically been society's dumping ground for the mentally ill and the other non-functional members of society. it offers shelter, some degree of warmth, and some degree of safety. It also offers us the benefit that we only have to see these poor people for a short time each day when we can bury our faces in our morning paper, and pretend we don't see them. We don't have to see them wandering our neighborhoods - too often.
In the south, things are different. On my last trip to Ft. Lauderdale, many of the I-95 overpasses served as homes to the homeless. It's hard to believe that the homeless would voluntarilly give up the kinder elements of the south for a free bus ticket to NYC. It's even more unbelievable that the bus carriers would permit skels and their unpleasant aromas to make regular paying customers uncomfortable over long trips.
Homeless along railroad tracks is not uncommon and is part of railroad lore. Even Lionel recognized this when they designed a series of 'hobo' accessories like the Hobo Campfire and Hobo Hotel. Sadly, living along subway tracks has additional dangers. The 3rd rail is something that the traditional RR hobo didn't have to contend with. But this colony is not the largest nor is it unique. There is a very large colony living in the RR tunnel under Riverside park. There are many others, too. The wall at the south end of the 2nd Avenue station was built because the homeless population south of that station presented a health hazard to the general population.
As undesirable as it is for people to live in those conditions, and as hard it is for us to see them on a day to day basis, get used to it. Until a comprehensive program is initiated to round up and treat these people, in a humane way, they'll be around - here or there - to remind us that society has done too little.
One thing I've noticed while catching a southbound A at 175 Street-GWB at midnight (done it 3 times while coming back from trips to Orange County) is I get a super clean R-38 car, stillsmelling of lemon scent and bleach.
It's its own reward.
Many long term psychiatric hospitals were closed years ago because some rocket scientist of a social work type claimed that the mentally ill could be better managed "out in the community ", and the politicians jumped on the idea that closing the facilities would save money. Well, now many of these people are wandering around with no place to go to, and are clearly a danger to themselves and to everyone else. Nothing is being done for them or with them, except placing them in jails, which exposes many of them to other kinds of dangers. This has been highlighted on "60 minutes", but still there is no movement from the folks in charge. It is costing the idiots in charge more money to deal with the mentally ill in the law enforcement environment than it did with the mental institutions, but they still just do not get it. Go figure.
Deinstitutionalizing everybody was a bad mistake; it was prompted, in part, by the reputation earned by certain institutions as warehouses.
Some patients really need a closely supervised, structured environment - esp. those who would fall apart (or hurt themselves and others) without somebody force-feeding them their medications. The pendulum swung too far to one side.
Believe it. It almost flew off completely.
Pendulums whacking one wall and then the other are business as usual for politicos these days - that allows them to prove that things don't work. Wonder how they'll spin Enron ...
G L O B A L C R O S S I N G S ! ! ! ! ! !
That'll do ... until ToysRus tanks. (and I don't mean "Thomas") :)
I am Shaknar...today is a good day to die. Zahadoohm awaits the Car Inspectors willing to make tactile inspections in the dark places. CI Peter
Ooooo ... look! A little teeny tiny running board so I can step up and reach the glass ... brrzzzzzzzp!
Keep in mind that any time local government tries to do something on behalf of these people, the ACLU pops up. Recently, the mayor tried to stop the homeless from sleeping in the street in front of a mid-town church and the church went to court - with the you-know-who. Can't discuss this without gettong into the 'LIBERAL-CONSERVATIVE' thing again. Just keep in mind that every time you see one of the homeless on the street or subway, you have Mario the Magnificant to thank.
True, but the incumbent has had 8 years in there after the Padre and the song remains the same. Ever get the feeling that NEITHER major party gives a rat's ass? :)
Yes it does remain the same. It's quite hard to un-ring the bell. Especially when the wrecking ball has had the final say about the future of some of the larger mental institutions in the state. Can't put them in Edgemore or Central Islip any more, can we? I have to agree with the ACLU in one thing, though. City shelters are no place for the homeless who can't defend themselves from the criminal predators who permeate the places. Of course, it's the ACLU that's keeping them out of jails.
Certainly no disagreement there ... one would think that being cooped up in cardboard boxes in THESE temperatures would qualify as "suffering to be reconciled" in the minds of the ACLU ... But it's so much easier and cheaper to do nothing at all I suppose ... thus the motivations for my comments about both political parties being full of crap ... most of the "invisible people" can be rehabilitated and made productive again. Some DO need institutional care. My frustration is with just dumping them like a pile of human trash to fend for themselves when clearly so many of them just can't ...
I can't disagree with you on the specifics about homeless policy. I'm pretty disgusted with it too.
But one of my pet peeves has long been the framing it as a "liberal vs. conservative" thing is counter-productive and dishonest - esp. since those labels are artificial, self-serving and don't really mean anything.
I don't think we should run our country like the old Soviet Union - you know, where a homeless person on the street was summarily arrested for "unspecified hooliganism" and tossed into a captive work gang. On the other hand, restricting their "freedom" to threaten public health and safety is a good idea, and there are many for whom a structured, supervised life would be good. Make them uncomfortable enough on the street, and more will choose to accept the structure.
The ACLU is on the extreme here. But this is America- wherepeople are taught to advocate the extreme in the hopes of getting 50% of what they want.
Maybe not arrests for hooliganism but perhaps a new class of Civil Commitment is needed. Round up the homeless. Treat their medical problems. Treat their drug/alcohol dependencies. Treat their emotional problems. Put them in a structured environment to perform community service to support themselves. Train them to survive in society or protect them for the remainder of their life.
There are shelters and places the hobos could go. They need to get their act together and try and fit into society. Many are on drugs and we have to get them off the stree. Innocent people come first, and these people pose both a health and crime hazard. People have a right to feel protected from those who would harm them.
Hey Sea Beach Fred: come back to my city and cook the hobos some Nathans Kosher! Mebbe i can work out a deal for some Redbird Carbodies. CI Peter
That's the ticket. A bunch of us railfanners hold a Barbeque for those guys. At least they would get a hot meal. But what after? The problem would still be there. There has to be a better place for them t han adjacent to my Sea Beach train.
Thanks...I think you see my point. A meal and a place to stay means little and the TA is not the agency to provide social services. I know I live in my own isolated world...an apartment on the Upper East Side...and I drive to my yahdd everyday. During Mayor Kochs' administration, the world discovered how the system works: a schizoid nurse/administrator with two college degrees lived in her own excrements on the sidewalk just down the block...and the Supreme Court upheld her rights to live like that. There is a line to be crossed but when? One of my Church ministers told us that we cannot dictate how a handout is to be used...that dollar might buy a bottle of wine to survive another cold night. The subway is not a shelter. CI Peter
Fred: Contrary to what has been said in several previous posts those are not homeless people living in shanties along the Sea Beach Line. Its all the railfans waiting for you to return to Brooklyn.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Do I get a brass band and a 21 gun salute too? Just tell all my railfan fans down at the camp that I will be coming back this year. I'm sure they can hardly wait.
Yeah, we got your brass band and muskets right here, bro. :)
Fred: You will certainly get a twenty-one gun salute from the boys in The Bronx. Remember one word, "DUCK."
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
If and when fred does come the NYC, we'll see what we can do about letting him come north under a temporary cease-fire.
I'm coming all right but with plenty of Southern Division BMT backup, but if you provide some protection as well I can get Selkirk to talk peace with the northern natives up there and all will be well. Are you in?
You'll be safe Unca Fred, and I'll make sure no bodily harm comes to ya ... however, you may leave all tagged up. :)
I'll be wearing my A shirt.:-)
I'm all for Detante' as long as you don't bring certain Brooklyn loonies with you. (Names deleted to protect the innocent)
Promise to be kept. I have to tell you Dude there are a couple of guys around here who think Selkirk and I are loonies. But we will be certain to only take class guys up there. You might help clear the path with some of your Bronx friends so I don't get a hot reception. Looking forward to meeting youn in person some time soon.
Heh. You ARE aware that dropping my name to "Dude" ain't gonna buy you much other than the gendarmes waiting to haul you away from the yards, no? :)
Kevin, you'll always be welcome - even though you admit to crossing into 'enemy' territory....
TD, you can't invite Kevin w/o forwarding an invitation to the BMTman...
As they say in Brooklyn (where I originally came from) Da maw da merrier.
If I could only pay a few of them five bucks an hour plus Wild Irish Rose for just a little Redbird UNDERCAR cleaning. The grease and dirt wouldn't even be noticable over their existing 'crusts.' CI Peter
Heh. I've crossed MANY a track in my day. To get to the other side, of course. :)
Gotta bribe the natives to let SBF into Northern NYC territories...
...a sacrifice to the Gods of Yankee Stadium might do the trick though...
BMTman
Yeah...and if Selkoik (int. misspell) wanted to come to S.D. BMT, we'd make a sacrifice to either the steeplechase or, umm..... "The Very Narrow Bridge" [a.k.a.: Da Verrazano Narrows Bridge] orrrrr Da Brooklyn Bridge. Forgedaboutit with the Manhattan Bridge...it's a whimp compared to the Brooklyn. :-D *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
Heh. Already raised my leg and tagged MOST of the southern division this past Christmas ... even got the SeaBits and da Franklin. :)
*lmao* Rats...I was looking forward to sacrificing a virgin *lol* at the base of the steeplechase.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Heh ... they can always be RENTED. :)
Fine by me Doug as long as I'm not the sacrifice.
Buwahahahaha ... :)
I blame some of this on the aftermath of "" welfare deform-cutoff""...& I see homeless on the HIGH RISE even in
los angeles evrythime i go to shoot pictures of the rail system here ...
all over the downtown areas everywhere & shame and horrible sight to see. It makes me feel very bad to see this..
please do not attack this post i am expressing my felings ...........& please excuse any typo errors ....thank you..
( sigh ) .....
Thursday night a person climbed through the fence of the L line at 105th St. to avoid paying the fare. He was hit by a passing train. People just continually underestimate how dangerous subway tracks can be. Now, if you think this is the best place for homeless people to live, especially homeless people who are wacked out on 'Night Train' or some other 'after dinner' beverages of choice, then perhaps you really need a reality check.
Hey, isn't 105 St where the grade crossing used to be?
Maybe when he didn't see the flashing red lights he figured it was OK to cross. Oh well.
The rebuild completely OBLITERATED the old grade crossing ... did it Kissmoose day, and NOTHING I remembered of "Turnbull" exists anymore there.
And how soon do you think it would it take for the hobo (just released) to reassemble his 'abode'?
BMTman
Not long. That's why enforcement isn't a one-time thing.
5 or 6, I guess
BTW, any homeless encampment on the Sea Beach ROW is likely just the summer home (aka 'east coast estate') of Sea Beach Fred.
BMTman
Believe it or not I am laughing like hell over that wiseass remark of yours. It would be interesting if I set up camp there in the summer. Sure would save on hotel bills. But I knew if I kept reading this post my name would come up sooner or later. A good laugh at my expense, but as long as it makes me laugh too, then it's ok. I have to admit it was a good one.
under the high rise buildings over bay ridge branch there are a few homeless, but i'd hardly call it an 'encampment'. I've seen a few in there each time i was in the area, but nowhere near the numbers that used to reside in the tunnel under riverside park. now that was a camp. they built shantys, reused old utility rooms down there for homnes, etc.
by comparison, i never saw any camps on the ROW in bay ridge. a few scuzzy druggies, yes, but no elaborate shanties, etc. Maybe it's changed in the last month or two since i was there last (cold weather, i suppose, might have made some move in and build).
Correct.
Example: Mr. T and I walked a good 2-to-3 miles of the Bay Ridge branch (from Schenectedy Ave to approx. Liberty Ave) back in the fall of '99 and only saw two or three shanties, but they appeared empty and the one or two actual homeless we saw kept to themselves and more feared us then we feared them.
BMTman
i can only guess it's a slow news day in bay ridge...
Don't knock Bay Ridge (it just happens to be my home for chissakes), and it isn't a bad place like some other 'hoods I know, so "can it"
hey i ain't knockin' bay ridge. it can't be bad to live someplace where the only bad news is a few hobos living in an out of the way place.
Now you've really done it. A few weeks ago subtalkers were referred to as "IMBICILES" on another site by a former subtalker (still a lurker, I guess) because someone was given a "Darwin" award. Now you refer to unfortunate homeless people by the politically incorrect term of BUM. All I can say is, Hey ......, It wasn't me so please don't call me any names this time.
"IMBICILES"
Uh...it's IMBECILES....
SO I ain't no good speller, neither!!!
Don't knock da Dude, okay? We can't be all good speelers, okay?! This entire thread has me upset because I don't like hearing that much negative stuff about the Ridge by the Bay *lol* It just so happens that even though I hail from the Bay by the Sheepshead *lol* (Sheepshead Bay), I personally favor B.R. more than S.B.
*drops his two scents [intentional misspell] into the bucket, and while no one's looking, takes one back*
Stuart, RLine86Man
You don’ wan’ git me goin’ on spelin and gramer!
Yors, wif toung firmly in cheeek!
Jhon
Think of how I feel about it. You would think those hobos would camp out on the Brighton and 4th Avenue Local since those lines would be ideal for them since they are hobo lines anyway. But no, they have to set up shop along my line. Doesn't the Sea Beach have enough problems with the TA screwing it left and right? Now we become an encampment for a pack of hobos. I suppose their residence could be construed as meaning the Sea Beach is the train of the people, but none of you are saying that now, are you?
Apparently, they're on the right-of-way, not on the trains. The Sea Beach right-of-way has room for a homeless encampment where it runs together with the LIRR/NY&A Bay Ridge Branch; the Brighton and Fourth Avenue rights-of-way don't.
David
The good news is our former Subtalker turned lurker, "Chicken Little" does not see the sky falling yet. He's given his blessings for the use of the term "BUMS" in this thread so I guess we can continue the discussion with his approval.
The bad news is he'll be posting pictures of greyhound lavatories on monday.
Different flavors for different places ... you'll note for what little it's worth that I've avoided that thread myself, but once again, I concur with the feathered person. It's UNFORTUNATE that people in need of psychiatric care (let's face it, "bums" are usually people who would do a LOT better if they had proper medication and medical care than just being turned loose on the streets, but hey, it pays for chump change called a "tax cut") ... unlike many, I have spent time (including my most recent visit to the city) hanging out with the "homeless" or "bums" as they're known here and most of them are lucid enough to "get by" but each and every one of them has a REAL story to tell, and few of them pretty ...
Yes, we all have the approval of HeyPaul to drag whatever we may have and folks here probably know by now that I'm neither an ideologue nor a patsy ... fact is, most folks who are homeless are in a situation you can't get out of. Lemme put it this way - I've personally been balls to the wall poor and EVICTED for nonpayment. Were it not for the graciousness of friends when I screwed up, I could have BEEN one of the unfortunate. I was lucky enough to be UPSTATE at the time so in my case, it wasn't as bad. I got screwed up with drugs and disappeared off the pplanet for a year and a half. I lived out in the woods in a "treehouse" ...
With all I knew and could do, I could have easily gotten a job instead of languishing ... in my case though the problem was I didn't have any PRESENTABLE CLOTHING for a job interview and the "home relief" program had NO mechanism to "loan me a suit" or "loan me money with a promise to pay every penny back once I had a job." If the political mechanisms permitted JUST THIS, there'd be a whole lot less homeless people shacking up ... no joke.
This is a problem we COULD address if we could get past this stereotype and find a mechanism to LOAN people the means to get a job and fund them with PAYBACK while they tried to get their act together. It CANNOT be done under present law and structure. And the laws should be reformed so that if a person is mentally incompetent to conduct their own life within acceptable societal limits, then some means of providing care and humane housing until they could be rehabilitated should be provided ... but hey, so much is the price of tax cuts when it cuts into social services for those who truly NEED them.
Many homeless are temporary ... for them, a loan and job training WITH PAYBACK would be a solution. The insane however, DO need medical care and it reflects VERY poorly on our society that they have to live in refrigerator cartons on right of ways ...
So yeah, there's been some heartless discussions of the topic - that's why Harry's place is dear to me - sensitivity IS permitted there. As to the way it's gone here, it's certainly a bit more "couth" than the discussion of Darwin Award winners ... after 9/11, I would have hoped ALL of us would value life a *bit* more than before no matter how much that "life" may suck lately.
Sorry for putting my thoughts on this thread to you, Train Dude ... nothing personal intended - I *do* admire and respect your restraint. Makes me respect YOU all the more!
Kevin, I'm sure there was nothing personal meant and none taken. Personally, I don't like the term "BUMS" but I accept the rights of others to use it. Much the same way, I did not start the use of the term, "Drwin Award" but I don't think I have the right to criticize those who embrace the concept or the use of the term.
I had referred to the object of my disdain as "Chicken Little' so as not to identify him publicly. I'm sorry that you did. It's just what the Sultan of Self-Promotion was hoping for. As for me, and as I told him personally, I feel he's well within his rights to object to what he perceives as politically incorrect terms. However, if he is going to refer to subtalkers as imbeciles for using the term "Darwin Award", then he should at least do it face-to-face, so to speak. He should make his criticism's here instead of on another web-site where many of the objects of his criticism will never know he's referred to them as knuckle-draggers.
Well ... lemme put it this way ... I *admire* you since you've done ball pein hammer duty on R1/9's, my own favorite torture device. But at the same time, given the computer-based fantasy environment in which I dwell, subtalk, Harry's place and a raft of BVE sites (seriously, if you were to get into BVE, you'd forget ALL ABOUT MTH heh) I regard both YOU and HEYPAUL (as well as a RAFT of other regulars here including SalaamAllah as *EQUALS IN STATURE* of importance to us "Bozos on this bus" ... sorry if you're offended by this, but on subtalk some of you traingeeks are "SELLEBATIES" ... heh.
Sorry for blowing any covers, but for many of us, it's quite obvious. Harry's place is a nice, slow, corner bar for various lunatics of all persuasions ... but folks are expected to be polite to others in that realm. I have it down in my own "favourites" list as "alt.subtalk.different" ... kinda like that name. It fits ... and despite some disdain for HeyPaul's public "image" ... I've hung OUT with HeyPaul along with the missus, and we both give him a FIVE STAR MENSCH ... what you see is what you get, and you don't get to see him publicly ... gotta spend a little TIME mano a mano with HeyPaul to realize that even YOU would like him face to face ...
Anyhoo ... no offense, but I've tended to AGREE with his observations more than I've dissed ... I've talked with him personally about this whole animus between you two ... and I offered you private email ... I just don't get how you guys irritate one another so much ... all I can say is I don't have any problem with either of you - I actually fear that there might be something to that astrological sign Miss Cleo crap than I could have ever imagined. Heh.
You couldn't have been thinking of me when you answered Dude's post, could you?
Kevin, my liking or disliking Mr. Kronenberg is a personal thing not for discussion here. I don't want to beat a dead horse but as I said it on the other site, my specific problem with him is this. There are many people here who disagree with each others on subtalk. Those disagreements are not always warm and fuzzy. But one thing, it's always up front. People say what they think to each other to their cyber-faces. Chicken little didn't have the balls to call some of us imbeciles to our face but he did go onto another site to do it. I don't respect that. I don't think any stand-up person would.
Come on guys...we all share a common interest...and we have to handle our animosities. Unca Steve can break chops with the best and his shots at me has done a world of good...to be the best CI that I can be. Listening for responses at 3885 Mc AM mode. CI Peter
And certainly not my place to step into the middle of it either. I *like* this place and perhaps have more stomach for it than many but I also know that there are a number of folks who find this place a bit too "edgy" as well and its their own right to avoid it and perhaps express their disdain for it where they feel comfortable doing so. What can I say? I don't see the issue the same way you might but we can still be pals hopefully ... but definitely isn't my place to speak on behalf of others - it's one's OWN choice as to how and where they express themselves (or diverge to the local) ...
B"H
a number of folks who find this place a bit too "edgy"
guess they don't read fc, now, do they? (g)
You're a work of art Dude. Great post as usual---but why do the rest of us have to swallow this political correctness bullshit? I'm sick of it. Now that it has invaded Subtalk maybe those of us who see it for what it is----A crock---- should rail and, if necessary, run off those who insist on using it. This is a first for me for I have never encouraged someone leaving this great web site, but that is how much PC bugs me. Have a great weekend.
Are you sure they're not just waiting for the train? The N has pretty long headways. Perhaps some frustrated riders have taken to camping out on the platform.
Well Fred, I've got more bad news for you. Today, on only one R40 trainset, there were at least 5 homeless people on it. Each had "their own" car. BTW, the W was running on the express track and coming from Coney Island... that's right, Stillwell Avenue.
It was a pretty nice Saturday until you hit me with humungous pile of crap. And why were they riding on our train in the first place? Did anyone have the guts to tell them to get the hell off and walk, or take another train or a bus? And what the hell is the W doing using the Sea Beach express tracks and coming in from Coney Island? I get it, the W can use the Sea Beach tracks and go to and from Coney, while our train cannot do those things. Hey Train Dude, you work for the TA, what in hell's name gives here? Some of your compadres at the TA are going way overboard in shafting the Sea Beach and it isn't funny anymoe. Some of us are getting good and pissed off.
Then let the W run from CI over the express tracks...the only people who are being screwed with are the West End folks south of NU/62nd Street (majority of West End folks) since their W doesn't even stop at New Utr/62, nor does it venture into Manhattan.
The majority of homeless bums get on at CI...so the N not going to CI could be a good thing...and if it's not homeless bums, it's a different type of "bum", kinds of people I won't go into detail about.
So there.
>>>Well Fred, I've got more bad news for you. Today, on only one R40 trainset, there were at least 5 homeless people on it. Each had "their own" car. BTW, the W was running on the express track and coming from Coney Island... that's right, Stillwell Avenue.
That's a good point that the West End riders get screwed.
The majority of homeless bums get on at CI...so the N not going to CI could be a good thing...
Then why were they all on the N yesterday? On the way home, an R68A, there was a drunk guy sitting behind me as well; I was at the window. At 8th Avenue, he remembered (or thought), that he forgot to bring something. Then he starts cursing and complaining about walking 12 miles back home. He got off at Fort Hamilton Parkway and headed for one of the exits... the exit on the other side of the station. (we were in the last car) Now, why could he not take the subway back? ... interesting
Must have been an IRT man lost in the maze of the big city.
Fred, the hobos have been on the Slow Beach since at least 1969, when I saw one relieving himself with a #2 on an R27/30. But the hobos prefer the all-underground lines as they are warmer in the winter. The C, E, and R are definitely preferred, even to the N.
And, of course, they are never seen on the Dullton. Maybe the bum thought he was on the D and relieved himself. Ah what the hell, I think the bums are taking their cues from the TA. They have been crapping on the Sea Beach for years now.
Fred, look at the bright side. It runs its full route 24/7. It must still have some importance, no? Of course, it usually gets dusted by a Q somewhere along Broadway.....
Well, as long as it doesn't get dusted by a W, I'm happy... or at least it doesn't on weekends...
An N dusted by a Wheezer? Nah. A turtle race would be a better description.
Such a shame the City and the TA have let the Sea Beach become.
I saw the story also, it looks like right around where the tracks go under and connect to 4th ave. That is not a nice sight to see coming out of the tunnel.
Well well, a little empathy from Brighton Man himself. Thanks. You can only roughly guess how I feel reading about another blot on my train. Damn, it makes me mad. You should know by now that my love for the Sea Beach can only be described as somewhat bizarre, but I actually think that train and I are synonomous. Ridiculous for a 61 year old man to say such a thing, but I run to extremes and when I was seven I fell madly in love with this train. It has never left.
This is news? I've been a TA conductor for almost 15 years now, with about 75% of my time working the N line. Those 'camps' have been there for many moons. There just seems to be a media craze on homeless stories right now.
A conductor on the Sea Beach line? If I hadn't moved to California when I was 14 I would have probably become a motorman myself, and you could bet that I would have raised hell until I was given the Sea Beach route. You are a lucky guy even if you don't know it. Tell those TA bastards to stop screwing our train.
What times do you work the N line, if you still do?
Actually right now I'm working a PM job on the V line out of 2nd Avenue, but I plan on returning to the N (or W, which also runs out of Astoria), if all goes well, next pick. Should be around May sometime.
NY1's story on the "solidity" of the 2nd Avenue plan.
http://www.ny1.com/ny/NewsBeats/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=2&subtopicintid=5&contentintid=18573
So now is the time to write to Representative Carolyn Maloney, to the new Speaker of the NY State Assembly, to the Governor and to Senators Clinton, Schumer, to Tom Daschle, etc. and keep up the pressure to get the funding we need.
I've said it at least a dozen times here: If you have time to post on Subtalk, you have time to call your legislators or write a letter.
<----already wrote to Senator "C" and Schumy.....someone's gonna hafta write to the Das dude on the hill and mebbe someone who's in Rep. Maloney's district should write to her...............as far as to the new Speaker of the NYSA, I don't even know who the bloody hell it is!!!!!!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Point your browser at: http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?sh=lea
I was under the impression at Sheldon Silver had yielded to someone else, but I could be wrong. He's still listed as speaker on the official website.
You have lots of addresses and phone numbers there.
Thanks for writing. You did a good thing.
I was heading out today and I noticed at about 1 PM at the Euclid Ave Station on the 'A'. There was a R-143 That pulled in from the yard (Or some place close by)on the south-bound track. It pulled in about Halfway into the station (I only saw about 4 cars) and went back the direction it came from (I'm guessing to the Yard). I think the car number was 8112 or something close to it.Was that the same R-143 that was on the 'L' or are we already getting new cars?
"I think the car number was 8112 or something close to it.Was that the same R-143 that was on the 'L' or are we already getting new cars?"
Car 8112 was recently delivered, cars 8101-8108 were on the "L" line for the 30 day test, which has already been completed. -Nick
Big plus in that the cars share much technology and mechanically with the R142, unlike the R62/R68. Defects corrected on the 142s could be addressed before the 143s are delivered.
-Hank
I'd offer that it seems as though they DID resolve many. I only joyrided it for a day, but I was mightily impressed by the 143's. And I'm one of those oldtimers who thinks anything newer than the R10's are crap. The 143's are SWEET ... move that throttle to a proper operating position, and they'd be the teats ...
I wonder how the R-143s would do on the CPW dash.
They're "peppy" ... designed to standard TA specs of course, but they wailed on the 14th St line ... I'm sure they'd bring back memories. I'm seriously impressed with the 143's ... NICE chuchu ...
The BMT standards did plenty of wailing on the Canarsie line, especially in the 14th St. tunnel. So did the R-7/9s.
But that "woman being raped" shrill horn of the standards was genuinely annoying ... I'm seeing the ruse here though - you were in it for the "sum of da pitch." Whoops.
Believe it or not, I never heard a BMT standard horn in the flesh. Didn't hear a Triplex whistle until I got Heypaul's tape of one of the Triplex fantrips from 2000.
When I was working Pitkin Yard yesterday, it was the first train (8101-8) that went out for testing. The next train (8109-16) remained in the yard. One switchman working there had to add the two sets and then move it from track 17 to track 21 in the barn, and I climbed aboard and watched him do the add, but then got a move of my own when he moved it out. The other set returned early because of the bad weather. So it's the first train that goes back out for testing; the second one is still being worked on in the shop. (still has plastic on the seats, signs not programmed yet, etc)
Are the R-143s running on the "L" train once again?
#3 West End Jeff
Basically is the R-143 really the B division equivalent to the A Division's R-142?
Except for the R-143's CTBC capability (and IIRC the R-142s can be upgraded to handle that), basically the R-143 is to the R-142 what the BMT's R-27/30 trains were to the IRT's R-26/28 cars when they were delivered in 1959-60.
The are undergoing "track testing" on the Rockaway flats.
put that new piece of junk on the G
Yo ... gotta call you on this one ... the 143 ain't JUNK ... lacking a foamer glass, you've got me. It's a solid, WORKING version of the 142's ... don't mean to pull a nasty, but they're not junk ... the 30 day test is reason enough ... passed it with flying colors ... and the cab is NICE ... aside from my not liking where they put the controller. Seriously though, it AIN'T a TA fruit. They WORK. :)
You said it, Selkirk! If you liked it, it's gotta be good. Poor Sallam thinks everything new is junk! Let's prove him wrong....
Chuck Greene
Hey wheres the railfan window (cream filling)?
*lmao*
knock out a railfan front window and i will be quiet.....big time....
C'mon, man ... get with the "technology" ... every train needs to be equipped with a railfan PERISCOPE! :)
But can they rip past 81st St. the way the R-10s used to?
whats wrong with putting them on the G ??
Probably nothing at all ... seriously though, they're NICE ...
Yesterday I saw 8116-5-4-3 southbound on D3 track at Sutphin Boulevard.
I saw that too at Roosevelt Ave.
Since there was so much discussion about the WTC and subway service to that location here is something on TV that might be of interest.
WTC on cable
The History Channel (ch 269) has done this program many times. I recorded it the first time when it was commercial free and copied it to tape.
ch 269? Man that is a LOT of channels. They don't go above 100 here in Nassau, and it costs over $45 just for basic (yea Cablevision sucks I know)
269 is the History Channel number via Direct TV, a/k/a The Dish. Loads more channels but loads more bucks. You get what you pay for!!
269 is the History Channel number via Direct TV, a/k/a The Dish. Loads more channels but loads more bucks. You get what you pay for!!
We dropped cable in favor of Direct TV after cable rates got exhorbitant. Direct TV is $36 per month vs. $48 for cable and offers more channels. Granted, the number of extra channels isn't all that much more than we had with cable, but some of them are pretty good ones (Much Music, All News Channel, Trio, TV Land, Independent Film Channel, several others).
I my case, DirecTV offers more channels than Cablevision did (it only offered CNN among the cable news stations). And is cheaper.
If you get the all channel plan, it costs less with DirecTV than with Cablevision. Pay-per-view is also cheaper. The worst thing is that Cablevision forced you to pay if you wanted to be able to program the converted to change the channel at a specified time for recording (the converter which you have no choice but to lease and pay a remote control fee).
DirecTV offers a combined DirecTV/TiVo receiver which I bought.
I have Dish Network at home, and the local channels (ABC, CBS, etc.) are in the 8100's. (8101 for WCBS, etc.)
Very interesting show, BTW.
You have 4-digit channel numbers? cool.
My Philips DSR6000 receiver supports 4-digit channels (when you start entering a channel number, it has three leading blanks, and you need to press enter even when entering a three digit channel).
The local channels are offered on the same channel numbers they would use on the air, except that I can't get 55, 62 or 63 using the antenna (62 is on 35 though). The locations of 55 (Riverhead) and 62 (Kingston) seem to far to be included in the full access law while 21 in Garden City isn't.
The worst thing is that Cablevision forced you to pay if you wanted to be able to program the converted to change the channel at a specified time for recording
Are you kidding me? Did they charge you extra for a power cord as well? How about an on/off switch fee?
DTV offers almost all the same stations a dish does, with none of the reception problems a dish has.
I got DTV cable, and my box goes up to 640.
As did I. The son of the man who operated the window cleaning machines (Rocco Camaj) worked for Morgan Stanley, and I knew him briefly. Other long term MS employees remember what a nice guy Rocco was, and his loss was felt more than some others.
I realize that right now the wtc station will keep it's name, but in the future that will most likely change. Do the good folks of Subtalk have suggestions for a new name? Here is my two cents: Rudolph W. Giuliani Station (a fantastic Mayor and a hero as far as 9/11 is concerned). -Nick
Heres my 2 cents: World Trade Center
The name should not be changed. 9/11 hit the heart of many Americans and the name should be left alone. It should act as a reminder.
How about Chambers Street South??? Or Chambers/ Church Sts???
Tony
I say keep it the "World Trade Center" for the station and for whatever they rebuild there.
It should be caller the World Trade Center - composed of 2 111 story towers similar to the previous ones with the land of the original towers next to the new ones serving as a park/memorial area.
ScottinSF
It should be called the 'Cortlandt Street Radio Row' and be reconstructed with five story buildings filled with WW2 surplus radio parts as well as the latest technology. G&G, Omnibus, Leeds and Lafayette were the last. CI Peter
>> The name should not be changed. <<
If we can still have a "Van Wyck Blvd." and "Ely Ave" then we can have a "World Trade Center."
Serious - Memorial Station
Humerous - Tali-Wacker Terminal.
Good one@humerous *lmao*
My suggestion: "Church Street" [I mean, that IS where the train operates at that point, no?]
Stuart, RLine86Man
I wouldn't have a problem with naming something after Giuliani, I just don't believe we should name things for people who are still alive. If anybody deserves a major facility to be named after him, it's Giuliani.
I wouldn't name a doghouse after that as---le.
How'bout naming the closed City Hall station after Rudy.
F WTC...we lost a war to the Japanese and they have Okibara. Bring me back my Cortlandt Street......1625s just 25 cents a box...ARC-5s five bucks apiece. OnTheJuice burns eighty!!!!!!!!!!!! CI Peter
Philly already made that mistake w/ Cecil B. Moore station on the BSS. CBM serves Temple University, but your agerage non-city resident wouldn't know that. A subway system should be intuitive and easy to use.
Anyway, the WTC station should obviously go back to Hudson Terminal Station.
'Cortlandt Street'.
If they give the new underground pedestrian complex a distinct name ('Fulton Plaza' or 'Manhattan Plaza' come to mind), then it might take that name.
I've long thought Atlantic/Pacific should be renamed Kingsborough Plaza or Brooklyn Plaza.
I've long thought Atlantic/Pacific should be renamed Kingsborough Plaza or Brooklyn Plaza.
I'm not 100% on this, but I believe the area in question was once known as Times Plaza. Though probably would be too close to Times Square.
There's a little triangle formed by Flatbush/4th/Pacific that's marked on maps as 'Times Plaza'. Last time I was there, there was an old (closed) newstand there.
I believe there is a mall right there called "Atlantic Center"...that sounds like a good name for the complex as well. Or just Flatbush
Terminal, a la the LIRR stop.
I see I have a fellow-thought-ist. The logic is that big transfer points should have a unique name. 'Jay Street Borough Hall' is a lie: there is no upstairs/downstairs transfer to another line there (tho', so we are told, Lawrence St will soon be hooked up to it).
The historical significance of the name "Hudson Terminal" is MINISCULE next to the historical significance of the name "World Trade Center" History isn't just about railroads, the events of 9-11 have a far greater impact to WORLD history than the Hudson & Manhattan RR did THROUGHOUT IT'S history.
Leave the name WTC as is. It will show the clowns that killed our fellow Americans that we are not going to change our ways here in the USA.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd Bronx.
How about America's Center or America's Plaza or City Center
Philly already made that mistake w/ Cecil B. Moore station on the BSS. CBM serves Temple University, but your agerage non-city resident wouldn't know that. A subway system should be intuitive and easy to use.
Stations named after people are quite common in Europe and seem to cause few problems.
PARIS: Charles de Gaulle Etoile, George V, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jaurès, Bolivar, Edgar Quinet, Cardinal Lemoine... and about half their other stations...
BARCELONA: Reina Elisanda, Jaume I, Joan XXIII (and probably more)
ROME: Vittorio Emanuele, EUR Fermi, Marconi, Giulio Agricola, Lucio Sesto, Furio Camillo (once again I might not remember some!)
In fact, most European metro systems seem to have stations named after people. The French almost always use Jean Jaurès and Charles de Gaulle. It has never caused me any problems. I tend to look on that new-fangled invention called THE MAP and find the nearest stop to where I am and to where I want to go. Simple, no?
What I see as a greater factor of confusion in New York is that different parts of the same station complex are called different names (Yes, I know there are good reasons for this, and it would be very expensive to change every station name, which I do NOT propose doing). Whatever the new name for the E train terminal is, it should be the same as the A and C trains' station and preferably the same as the 1, 2 (should be 2, 3) station. For that "Rudolph W. Giuliani" would not be a bad idea. Or, if street names are used "Chambers Street - Park Place". If it has to be someone dead, "John F. Hylan" is better than most candidates.
If they are building a mega station serving multiple linse, perhaps each line could have it's own concourse, For instance, one concourse could be called the WTC Rudolph Giuliani Concourse, while the other NYCT concourse could be named after George W. Bush and the PATH terminal could be named after one of the PAPD H*E*R*O*E*S of 9-11
I don't know why all these folks are saying we should go out and change the name. Any naming of the station after a person would be wrong. Let's name the station after what is there--namely, the business capital of the world. So I see "World Trade Center" as a perfectly suitable name even now. Just my 2 cents.
The problem is that there are enough streets named after people that the station can be named for the same people. You can name Chambers Street for John Chambers (real person for whom the street was named), or if you name the station for Vesey Street, you can name it for Rev William Vesey, which would make even more sense because the station is beneath Church Street, named for the same church were Vesey was pastor.
For Guiliani, one of the G-named avenues (Glenwood, as I recall from memory and not looking at a map) in Brooklyn is likely to get it's name changed. It's bad form to rename a street until the so-honored person is dead.
And since Guiliani has taken physical possession of his mayoral papers, we are likely to expect a rather lavish building in Brooklyn (a branch library of the Brooklyn system with circulating best-sellers) that houses them.
Considering all, history will again repeat itself, as farce (Marx, comparing the first and third Napoleons). As we had Nixon and Agnew, so again we seem to have Bush and Cheney. Cheney will likely have to quit in the Enron firestorm. Guiliani will be another Ford.
How anout a really wild Idea: Chambers street
Way too early to even suggest the right name.
- If the WTC area gets a new name, obviously the station should have that name.
- If the new complex of buildings and memorial is still called WTC, then that's the name.
- If the PATH station gets renamed the Hudson Terminal, that's a good candidate.
- If no major landmark name emerges, the name of the principal cross street should be used. The correct street name is Vesey St, not Chambers, Cortlandt, or Church St. The station is many blocks south of Chambers and several blocks north of Cortlandt. Church St is parallel, not perpendicular.
Church St is parallel, not perpendicular.
That doesn't matter, The A, C and F stop at Jay Street-Borough Hall. Why is it not called Willoughby Street?
Especially since the York Street station is also on Jay Street!
Other examples:
Broad Street (J/M/Z): should be Wall Street
Park Place (1/2): should be Church Street
148th Street (3): should be 7th Avenue (or at least 149th Street)
Northern Boulevard (G/R/V): should be 54th Street
Van Wyck Boulevard (E/F): should be Main Street
Jamaica-Van Wyck (E): should be Jamaica Avenue
High Street (A/C): should be Washington Street (or Cadman Plaza)
Clark Street (1/2): should be Henry Street
Franklin Avenue (S): should be Fulton Street
Stillwell Avenue (N/W): should be Surf Avenue
Here's a couple......
9/11 Plaza or 9/11 Memorial Plaza
Phoenix Memorial...(Phoenix= rising from the ashes)
American Memorial Plaza
That's the best I can come up with, not an easy task.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have no Idea why change the name???? Im not understanding this.
I have no Idea why change the name???? Im not understanding this.
Because (1) the World Trade Center doesn't exist any more; (2) whatever is built there is not likely to be a single, unified, megalithic complex like the WTC was, but composed of buildings separated by streets; and (3) the WTC won't be recreated because the purpose it was (supposedly) built to accomplish isn't needed now, i.e. the notion of world trade is firmly embedded into any surviving business in NYC now, so there's no need to house small specialized import/export businesses in their own complex any more.
Me, I like "Memorial Center" or something like that for a building or two near the memorial park or whatever gets built. And I like resurrecting the name "Hudson Terminal" for the PATH and IRT station complex. I'd love it if a twin-towered building, to be called Hudson Terminal, were to be built there ... but I think that's heading off into foamer/SubTalk fantasist land ....
maybe we should build you a memorial
now that's the point of that comment?
How About Heroes Square as a new name for WTC?
#951 Amtrak AEM-7
World Trade Center. It will rise again.
How about they rename the word trade center station "Ground Zero terminal"?
Absolutely not. The station in question is not a grand building that itself serves as a destination, like Grand Central Terminal. It's a simple underground subway station, and subway stations are named for their locations. Imagine the confusion if all subway stations were named after people: nobody would know where they actually are!
Also, please don't forget that the WTC station wasn't the closest station to the actual WTC complex -- that honor went to Cortlandt on the 1/9, with Cortlandt on the N/R right behind it.
If the new complex retains the WTC name, then the station should also retain its name. If not, it should be renamed Vesey Street.
'Honour thy Father and Mother.' RADIO ROW. CI Peter
Ok, the clock is still ticking fast and we are in 2002. This means that we still have another 2 years deal with before 2004 where we can see the North Side Manny B reopen. One thing I would like to see happening in MTA NYC Transit system is to having trains running in two sides Manny B(North and South). Rumors about the Manny B in 2004 have been flying around. It may or may not be true. What I would like see happening in 2004 Manny B plan is to having B and D run north side as before; and N and W runs on south side. With that, there will be a battle between Broadway line and 6th Ave line over Q. (Where it will the Q end up with? Will the Q be orange again or will it remain the yellow ?) As far as W are concerned, I hate the idea of W end up in whitehall manhattan after returning from Queens. What I like see happing with the W is to have it return to the Bridge and run express via N to stillwell avenue (since there are two express track N line in Brooklyn). The M and R stay the same as now and always. I think Fred gonna like this one!
What do guys thinks? Feel free to share your comments or thoughts
The (Q) should definitely remain on Broadway. It's not just the traditional concerns. It's also that Broadway needs it much more than 6th Ave does.
:-) Andrew
How about if we all just wait for something to be announced first?
Transit's planning types aren't required to come up with a plan NOW just because the railfans want them to.
That's not how this place works. See, we've already got people figuring out what letter the Second Ave line will use, and why there isn't a 'P' train. No one likes to deal with reality, and there's a constant arguement on the real meaning of the car failure numbers now that most of them are coupled into semi-permenant sets.
Don't try asking that they wait for something real to occur. It's too hard on some of them.
-Hank
Hey, we're railfans and this stuff is fascinating to ponder on and talk about.
Unless the TA is seriously lying the south side of the bridge is FIXED and will not need to be closed for the next 50 years (assuming proper maintenance).
The current (Q) (Brighton Local) should stay on Broadway. This provides Brighton riders with 2 separate destinations. Also, then Bway would hopefully have 2 expresses and 2 locals (N, Q, R, and another local), as would 6th Ave (B, D, F, V). Though I can see a really stingy TA plan that would have the Q and V merge into a single route (ugh!).
You refer to both a B and a W. Therefore I assume that by W you mean the second Astoria line, not the West End line. This should be a local to Whitehall because Broadway needs a 2nd local via tunnel more than it needs a 3rd express via bridge. Again, the TA may decide to be stingy and just forget about it altogether, maybe reducing lower Broadway service or maybe keeping the N as a local (ugh, again).
The final issue is whether the TA will see fit to (re)introduce a Brighton to Nassau St service. It seems strange that 4th Ave riders will probably get direct rides to all 4 destinations (R to Broadway via tunnel, N to Broadway via bridge, M to Nassau St, and B to 6th Ave) while Brighton riders may only get 2 destinations (Q to Broadway via bridge and D to 6th Ave).
So the really stingy plan is:
B West End to 6th Ave to upper Manhattan
D Brighton express to 6th Ave to upper Manhattan
M West End to Nassau St to Metropolitan
N Sea Beach to Broadway via tunnel or bridge to Astoria
R Broadway local to Continental
Q/V Brighton local to 6th Ave to Continental
The reasonable additions are:
Q to 57th/Broadway, allowing the V to be extended to the Culver Line
"W" Astoria to Whitehall
N express via bridge
J Jamaica-Brighton Local
>>>>Q/V Brighton local to 6th Ave to Continental<<<<
Accordingly to the stingy plan u listed above, If the Q operate to Continental. That means that the G must be cut back to Court Square 24/7. Which, the Noble Street people won't be happy about that.
The J isn't going south of Broad St, as the M alreay provides plenty of Nassau St service thru Dekalb Ave.
Here's what'll happen (yes, i know there isn't a plan, but this is what the plan will look like IMHO):
B: Concourse/CPW Lcl/6th Ave Exp/West End
D: Concourse/CPW Exp/6th Ave Exp/Brighton Lcl
M: Same as today
N: Astoria/Bway Exp/Sea Beach via bridge (Fred's dream come true)
Q: Same as today's diamond Q
R: Same as today
W: Astoria/Bway Lcl, weekdays to Whitehall St
i agree with your plan except make the B weekdays only with current M span to south broolyn.
new T westend/bway express coney -57/7 current W span
M to 95th street
I agree Chris that this is the most likely scenario.
The R should run on the bridge instead of the N and (V) should run over the bridge to Coney Island via West End Line.
Here is my plan for 2004. It's somewhat ambitous. But I think it could work. Somewhat long post
It involves changing a lot of lines. I'll list all the letter lines here, and put any changes.
(A) -No change
(B) -Bedford Park Blvd. or 145th street to Coney Island via CPW local, 6th ave. express, Manhattan Bridge, fourth ave express (local weekends), Sea Beach
(C) -No change
(D) -Resumes old route- 205th to Coney Island CPW Express, 6th ave express, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton local
(E) -71st street to WTC (or whatever it's called) via QB local, 53rd street, 8th avenue local (this could be a weekday only train if necessary due to cost but preferably would not be)
(F) -Jamaica Center to Coney Island QBE, 53rd street, 6th ave. local, culver line (local or express depending on optional V train below)
(G) -current route
(J) -current route
(L) -current route
(M) -current route
(N) -Astoria to Whitehall street via 59th street, Broadway local
(Q) -Astoria to Coney Island via Astoria local, 59th street tunnel, Broadway Express, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton Express (weekdays only)
(R) -current route
(S) -both shuttles retain current route
(T) -entirely new train (could be W I guess) 179th street to Coney Island via QBE, 63rd street, Broadway Express, Manhattan Bridge, 4th avenue express, West End
(V) -optional train from 57th/6th to Church on F line via 6th avenue, local in Brooklyn. Otherwise I have no plan for anything servicing 57th and 6th.
(W) -could either be what I called the T (what the line should be called) or be eliminated.
This plan would result in the following:
In Brooklyn
4th Avenue
R- 95th to Broadway via tunnel
T- West End to Broadway via bridge
B- Sea Beach to 6th avenue via bridge
M- weekday local to Nassau Street
Culver
F- to 6th avenue via tunnel
V- Church to 57th via tunnel (if created)
Brighton
D- to 6th avenue via bridge
Q- to Broadway via bridge weekdays
Weekends only changes would be no V, Q, or M (B would run local on 4th ave.)
In Manhattan
8th avenue- same as before
6th avenue- B,D,F,V (B and D express and via Manny B to Brooklyn, F and V local via tunnel to Brooklyn). Weekends just B,D,F
Broadway- N,R,Q,T N and R local, N to Whitehall R to Brookyln as before. N to Astoria R to Queens Blvd. T express all times via 63rd to Queens. Q weekday express serving function of W in Queens.
Weekends just N,R, and T
Queens Blvd-
E- local to 8th avenue via 53rd
R- local to Broadway via 59th
F- express to 6th ave. via 53rd
T- express to Broadway via 63rd
(this way local and express both to IND and BMT)
Astoria
Q- weekdays
N- all times
Obviously, this could be confusing for people. And there's a lot of different ways to do this (and trains here could easily be renamed). And I did not think of nice service. My goal here was to give as much balance as possible to different routes.
Going over this, I was thinking of a couple possible changes to my earlier plan. This plan would also allow a night service plan that I did not account for before (which is below). First the changes
1. Instead of M run the N into Brooklyn to 9th ave. weekdays, Bay Parkway Rush Hour. M would terminate at Broad/Chambers
2. Switch the N and R in Queens. This the R runs all the time from Astoria-95th. N would not run at night but would run on Weekends.
Night service would be as follows
B- Sea Beach shuttle 59th to Coney Island
D- normal service
E- no service
F- local in Queens, otherwise same route as during day
N- no service
Q- no service
R- same as day service
T- same as day service
V- no service
Then you would have direct 95th and West End Manhattan Connections to Broadway, one via bridge, one via tunnel, at night. Sea Beach would be shuttle. Brighton local onto 6th ave., thus one train on each side of bridge + one train in tunnel. 6th ave. D and F, Broadway R and T. In Queens the F would take the current E route, with the T replacing the F.
You can't switch the N and R, they each need one terminal at or near a yard.
Didn't the R run from Astoria to 95th before 1990 (or sometime like that)? Or to solve that problem the B could run to 95th and the R via Sea Beach (The B in that case using the BPB yard and the R using the Coney Island. N would use Queens yard.). My reason for switching them was to allow for the T on West End and B on Sea Beach (thus only one of the N and R can run to 95th. The other can replace the M in Brooklyn or terminate at Witehall.
You're asking the F to do a lot of work here. The F is now the only QB express that goes to either E 53rd or to 6th Ave. A lot of people work between 6th and Madison Ave in midtown. The T is too far west for comfort for those folks and also too far north for the east midtown crowd that uses the E 53rd stops.
They wouldn't put the Q back on 6th Av. The V is established there as the additional Queens service. The only way I could see them combining them is if the south side has to close again. But then it will have to be 63rd, and the F go back to 53rd, when they claim that the 53rd-63rd switch is better. What they might do instead is cut the M and send the Q through the tunnel, since by then the Q will be established again on Broadway, and recall bnefore the change, the M was seen as not needed in the tunnel.
When and if the 2nd Ave. line gets built, I have a funny feeling the "V" train might end up at its "new" terminal of 125th St. or the Co-op City in the Bronx via a connection thru the 63rd St. Tunnel.
if the 2nd Ave. line gets built ... the "V" train might end up at its "new" terminal of 125th St. or the Co-op City in the Bronx via a connection thru the 63rd St. Tunnel.
IIRC, the current construction doesn't allow turns from the Queens Boulevard line inbound through 63rd to go north onto 2nd Ave. Inbound from Queens a train can (1) continue straight along 63rd to Sixth or Broadway lines; or (2) turn downtown onto Second Ave line.
Similarly, going outbound along 63rd Street, a train can either (1) turn north onto Second Avenue; or (2) head through 63rd tunnel.
So you couldn't turn "V" north to 125th from 63rd Street.
"So you couldn't turn "V" north to 125th from 63rd Street."
And you wouldn't if you could. The demand would be minimal.
Personally, I would favor a return of the Q to 6th Ave. Like they say, "It's so much flattering in orange, dear." :)
But that's beside the point, other than the fact of the color. Look at it this way: The Queens Blvd. Line currently has E, F, V, and R. Add the Q to it, and you've got 5 lines on Qns Blvd. Meanwhile, N and W would still be running to Astoria.
Here's what I think (May be screwed, insane, crazy or just plain nuts):
QUEENS:
- E is 8th Ave, so like the Beatles would say, "Let it be". It will continue to use the 53rd Street Tunnel.
- F and Q will be on 6th Ave., With Q taking the 63rd Street Tunnel.
- V will be switched to Broadway (Yellow), and should run express in Queens and use the 60th Street Tunnel.
- R will continue to use the 60th Street Tunnel.
- N will continue to run the Astoria line.
- R will be kept on the Astoria Line.
MANHATTAN:
- B, D, F and Q will be on ther Ave of the Americas.
- B, D and Q will use the North Side of Manny B
- F will use Rutgers Street Tunnel
- N, R, V and W will be on Broadway.
- N and W will go to the South Side of Manny B
- R will continue to use the Montague St Tunnel
- V will terminate at Whitehall Street/Rush Hrs to/from B'klyn.
- M will be cut back to Chambers. Permanently.
BROOKLYN:
- D and Q will be reunited on the Brighton Line
- D to Brighton Beach (Local)
- Q to Coney Island (Express)
- F will continue to run on Culver, but as express.
- G will be extended to Kings Hwy or Coney Is. as Culver Local
- F to Coney Island (Express)
- G to Kings Highway (Local)
- N will continue to use the Sea Beach
- N to Coney Island
- V on rush hours will run express on Sea Beach
- V to Coney Island, Rush Hours only
- R will go to Bay Ridge
- R to 95th Street
- B and W will will use the West End Line
- B to Coney Island
- W to Bay Parkway
STILLWELL AV-CONEY ISLAND:
Track 1/2 will have the N (V uses track 2 during Rush)
Track 3/4 will have the Q
Track 5/6 will have the F
Track 7/8 will have the B
It's just my two cents, mock and belittle to your own pleasure. I haven't been back in NY since '96...
-SG!
First I think that Q would be a little more appropriate if it remained on the Manhattan Broadway line.
Secondly, the (M) cutting back to Chambers indefinitely would make no sense.
What about running the (W) to just Whitehall Station after 2004.
2 points---
WHy make the Q orange, and the V Yellow? The Q should be the QB Broadway-Brighton line while the V would be the QB-6th avenue- sea beach, or you could run it through the Williamsburg Bridge.
Also If there are 2 Broadway lines on the Queens boulevard One should go through 63rd.
Also send the M to bay ridge
As long as it stays on Subtalk, it's harmless. I wouldn't want the MTA, however, to be devoting resources and time to repainting signs, stations and rollsigns to achieve a purely cosmetic result (and one which is open to debate even as to its cosmetic benefits).
Okay, modification time!! (Thanks for your pointers, guys)
- M takes Montague St. Tunnel to Bay Ridge, which means West End, Sea Beach, Culver, Bay Ridge and Brighton ALL have express and local service:
Express: Q (Brighton), F (Culver), V (SB), W (WEnd), M (BR)
Local: D (Brighton), G (Culver), N (SB), B (WEnd), R (BR)
(Each line will have two different colored routes on them!)
- Q and V remains as-is...Q on Broadway, V on 6th Ave. (Although I'll miss seeing an orange Q picking me up at Grand Street the next time I'm in NYC Chinatown heading to Kings Highway...)
I guess that should work MUCH better now....I think.
But something of a side question: Would all of the stations in the 5 aforementioned lines need digital destination signs on their platforms, if this plan of mine was a reality?
-J!
You think wrong pal, so start to shove it someplace. If the Sea Beach is a local, it means it stays in the Montague Tunnel and doesn't go on the bridge and isn't the Broadway local. You certainly are entitled to your say and you have said it. I have a right to my say and I say your say isn;t worth a warm pitcher of spit.
Modifiy (again)...
If you're reading the main "A Modest/Modified Plan For 2004", thanks to #4 Sea Beach Fred's comments, V's the local, N's the express on Sea Beach.
- V runs local, Rush and Midday only to 86th or Coney Island.
- N runs express on Broadway, and uses the Manny B's South Side, and runs express on the Sea Beach when V is local.
Hope this should satisfy everyone.
-J!
Thank you sir. You are now a gentleman and a scholar and an ally. I'm really a Sea Beach nut aren't I? You ought to hear what my wife says about me. No middle ground for me. I'm an extremist for the things I consider important in my life. And the Sea Beach was once a very big part of my life, and I guess things haven't changed all that much even though I'm now a senior citizen. Where the Sea Beach is concerned, I'm a kid.
A G as a Culver local is fairly useless. Most of the people at the Culver local stops are going to Manhattan. They will first have to wait forever for a G (current frequency is 5-6 tph even in rush hour) and then have to switch again.
The only useful Culver local is a V (or equivalent) that goes into Manhattan. Then you can argue about whether the demand is there for Culver express service, but at least the local stations are properly served.
send the E through CRANBERRY TUBES!!!!!!!(JAY street tower will send hitmen after me for this one)
The E and G would both be culver locals.
Problem: The G line HAS NO CONNECTION TO THE CRANBERRY STREET TUNNEL! 8th Ave trains can't go on the Culver line!!
...BUT if they built a connection, then it's a whole different ballgame.
-J!
8th Ave trains can go on the Culver line, but it's an awful mess to have them use the crossover just north of Jay Street. You'd be crossing over between two tracks each of which is running over 20 tph.
G trains cannot run into Manhattan. However, simple crossover switches west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn would allow this, and might not be too much of a burden to use, since you'd only be talking about 6 tph merging in from an otherwise empty line into the rather full A/C line.
ALSO you may want to send the N to BRIGHTON beach via stilwell(NX)
Hey Calgary, I noticed you never mentioned whether my Sea Beach goes over the Manhattan Bridge or continues in that rat infested Montague Tunnel. If it is the former you can take a bow. If it is the latter, no offense intended, you can take your plan and shove it up someplace where the sun doesn't shine.
I said:
"- N, R, V and W will be on Broadway.
- N and W will go to the South Side of Manny B."
There you have it, Fred. Your beloved Sea Beach is on the bridge, which will leave the ol' Bay Ridge R in the Montague St Tunnel.
...and also having the V on Sea Beach with the N under my idea, it doesn't matter what goes express and what goes local. But since you have a better knowledge at the Sea Beach than me, I would probably have to follow your idea of the N Express.
But seriously, you don't need to be so rude in your replies. I'm only trying to have some input.
-J!
It wa both compliment and a knock---just in case. Since it is on the bridge, I compliment you and support your plan. You said it yourself---my beloved Sea Beach. You have no idea of how beloved it is. I am so ticked off at the TA for what it has done to that train that I am very defensive about it. Accept my apologies. I should have just said forget it if my train was stuck in the tunnel.
Yeah Fred, in the absence of #1 Brighton Exp Bob you ought to be on your best behavior.
Now we don't need any comments from the Brighton peanut gallery. But, then again, I do enjoy trading friendly barbs with you, and you did come out for a positive position for the Sea Beach in the future. That makes you not half bad, and as for Bob, he is working his ass off trying for that extra bread. I have no idea when he is getting back on. As you probably know, we have become fast friends and I miss him on Subtalk. Do you know I spent two weeks with him last summer at his place in Virginia? We went all over and even took a day's trip to New York. He wore his D shirt and I my N. We got a lot of stares and questions about them. Many wanted to know where they could get such shirts. We took over the town for one day and owned it. When we get there next fall with reinforcements the town will never be the same. Maybe we can also touch base.
"......rat infested Montague Tunnel" You don't know what a rat infested tunnel is till you've seen the 53rd St. tunnel!
At least the Steinway tubes are too small for both a train and a rat to fit in :D:D:D SQUISH!!!!!!!!!! Yippee!!!
Joralemon St. is pretty old...won't that be rat-infested too?
-J!
the most rat infested of them all is the 14th tube.
I'll take your word for that Bill. I used my term because I am furious that my train is stuck there and a local to boot, instead of what it should be a Broadway Express heading over the Manny B to Coney Island.
Personally, I would favor a return of the Q to 6th Ave. Like they say, "It's so much flattering in orange, dear." :)
The Q is a Broadway route. Unless the south side is closed, it'll remain as it is, as it is supposed to be.
But that's beside the point, other than the fact of the color. Look at it this way: The Queens Blvd. Line currently has E, F, V, and R. Add the Q to it, and you've got 5 lines on Qns Blvd. Meanwhile, N and W would still be running to Astoria
4 lines on Queens Blvd have already met the maximum capacity. They explored the option of operating 5 lines (E, F, R, V, G) and deemed it impossible. If you want to operate the Q into Queens, then the other 4 lines would have to be cut. As I've said before, why?
Brighton riders should have a direct ride to Broadway as well as Sixth Avenue.
While we are there, we should also get a Nassau St./Myrtle ride direct from Brighton.
I hope they will re-route the (M) to the Brighton line, make the (D) and (Q) express all times except weekend when the (D) or (Q) will run local, extend the (W) via the West End line to take the (M)'s place or whitehall or wither away, and make the (M) go to Chambers St. on weekends. You will get 24/7 exp. and local service on the Brighton line, and there CAN be a replacment for th old (M) route.
And also keep the Q on Broadway.
While we are there, we should also get a Nassau St./Myrtle ride direct from Brighton
Demand doesn't exist to warrant cutting midtown service to accommodate a Nassau St. route.
"Demand doesn't exist to warrant cutting midtown service to accommodate a Nassau St. route."
It's not credible to say that demand doesn't exist. Why would people who work in the financial district all avoid living in areas served by the Brighton Line? Almost every line goes to the financial district, and each of those lines has a considerable number of people who get on and off there.
A better reason might be that if you have 24 tph on the Brighton line, then diverting 6 of them onto the Montague tunnel at Dekalb might cause delays to the Brighton line trains.
A better reason might be that if you have 24 tph on the Brighton line, then diverting 6 of them onto the Montague tunnel at Dekalb might cause delays to the Brighton line trains.
It would, but the lack of use of a Brighton/Nassau route is much more important to not doing it.
Are you claiming that virtually no one transfers from the Brighton line to the M, N, or R ar Dekalb?
No, but not enough to dedicate 6 trains an hour for Brighton/Nassau service.
trainset 6431-6435/6446-6450 are in service.saw it this moring
Good Work!
6446-6450 is new, 6431-6435 is not.
Many thanks.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
He's mistaken. Cars 6431-35 and 6466-70 are running together during the week of 1/21/02.
-Stef
Not that I posted that often to begin with! My Company recently started cracking down on our internet access abuse and has blocked out a lot of websites, including Subtalk and NYC Subway Resources! So it looks like I won't be able to lurk around any more during normal working hours. Oh, well :-(
There but for the grace of God go I, my friend. So far, I have been lucky.
Sorry, to hear that Bob. Bummer!
But there's always the telephone!
Chat with you soon...
BMTman
I'm shocked...yes, shocked...that anyone would access the internet during working hours for personal purposes. Oh, oh, have to end this...I hear footsteps approaching in the aisle.
Web browsers should come with a panic button. You know, when you hear your boss coming, you tap a key, and a spreadsheet showing financial results for next week's budget meeting instantly show up on the screen.
Of course, if your boss knows there is no budget meeting next week you are SOL...
:0)
On Windows, it's Alt-Tab to instantly bring you to a different application, such as the really complex spreadsheet.
A panic button would be useless. Most companies these days log all use of the pipes, and know exactly who went where, when, and for how long. There is no way for anyone except, perhaps, an extremely sophisticated hacker type to prevent logging. (Sleeping with the IT policy or network nazis might serve to "persuade" them to not monitor you).
This program will activate your screen saver with your "panic button".
http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file_description/0,fid,5559,00.asp
There was another program where whenever you moved your cursor to a designated corner of your desktop and a spreadsheet screen will pop up. I just can't remember where it was or what it was called though.
Heck, I don't even have internet access in the office. I will say this, since moving from a policy agency (NYC Planning) to an operating agency (NYC Transit) I've been too busy to follow Subtalk as much as I used to. Having a real job is a bitch.
Moreover, as the little girls get older, there is more competition for the phone line.
What do you do for the transit agency?
As I recall, you functioned as an economist at NYC Planning, right?
soooooooooo....!!
U folks got da' Eeeeeee.....easy jobs!!
Man i worked in my day ....CONSTRUCTION
school bus driver ....etc.....
no wonder some of U bitch & moan over the
redbirds !!
What is their objection to subtalk, specifically? Or do they frown on all out- of- company internet use?
www.forgotten-ny.com
At our company we recently had a two-hour spew about how emails getting to the wrong people are so destructive and how they hurt the company, so watch it, etc. etc.
I didn't mention at the meeting about how if they're so darned dangerous how come we have email in the first place? Remove the email and remove the problem...not wanting to be seen as a wiseass and all...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Gee, do you have any openings for a NYCT train operator? And people call us unproductive! I can't go to the toilet when I feel like it, I have to gulp down my lunch because I don't have enough time, and guys like you have so much free time you can do leisure computer stuff while you are getting paid to do something else! I hope I am not one of your direct or indirect customers, I'll be paying you to be on SubTalk! Obviously there is much fat that could be trimmed here.
Hey I got a laptop and am typing out of class. Also at ome I got DSL so I save time.
You just have to find a way to weave SubTalk into your job :-)
At this bus company I spend time on BusTalk & at least one VP here sees it. Dave & his friends have educated this guy a great deal.
This same VP knows I have a pasion for subways & trolleys.
Of course I was the one to tell him the value to the company of my spending a reasonable amount of time here. That's why you'll tend to see me here until 9 AM, then I do other work assignments < G >
Mr rt
git' a laptop & hookup 56k on ya' phone line .....!!
Use an anonymous proxy. Thats what all the hackers use.
well.....at least i tried ...........lol ......
I was thinking you could use the typical way of getting around these "firewall" and baby-sitting devices. You convert the IP address into a long integer (there are programs and website out there that can do it for you). Unfortunately, Dave's server returns a 404 error when I try to get to SubTalk using this URL:
http://3639044505/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi
This method doesn't work with Interner Explorer 6 for Windows XP, I don't know if it works with earlier IE versions. It does work with Netscape including Version 6.
I tried the long interger notation on my web server which is running Apache 1.3.19 (Unix) PHP/4.0.4pl1. Dave's server is Apache/1.3.9 (Unix) mod_perl/1.21. I'm not sure what the difference in configuration is.
Anyway this one should work it's Yahoo:
http://1077562544/
I used to use this method all the time at school to get around their CyberCop or whatever it was. Worked all the time. For easy IP conversion I had a tool to convert them on my Palm Pilot :)
Anyway, here is my page where you can covert your own IP addresses. Might be useful eventhough they don't work with this site :)
http://quake.nyct.net/~nix/ipconv/
or
http://3633020970/~nix/ipconv/
Shawn.
Please be advised this consist will be going into service hopefully soon. Its 1 train of the 8900 series with 1 single R 33 car # 9338. As usual the single car is the 3rd North motor.
If one is going to build a new 4-track under-street subway, it occurs to me that building it as a double decker affair, configured very much like what you have under Central Park West, makes a great deal of sense with local stations.
With the standard IND express station, you have a cavernous mezzanine. You go down one flight of stairs to the mezz., and another flight to get to the platform. You need at least 3 elevators and 3 sets of escalators. I don't see any reason to change this configuration.
For local stations, unless you have some sort of mezzanine, you have to have two token booths, at least two elevators and two sets of escalators. With a mezzanine, it requires the same number of elevators and escalators as an express station. This is the configuration I would change.
With double decked local stations, you have extra-wide platforms with fare control off to one side. Theoretically, only one elevator is needed, coming down from the sidewalk right next to a token booth, and then down to the lower level. And only two sets of escalators. A possible downside is the fact entrance/exit is from only one side of the street.
I beleive the consensus is that building deeper is cheaper because it allows you to use tunnel boring machines rather than cut and cover for the actual tracks, if not for the stations. This suggests to me that any future stations will have mezzanines.
Of course a "mezzanine" can also be as small as a suspended platform set amid a cavernous station with an elevator shaft running through it. Even deep stations can be set up so that you have one elevator ride from street to platform (the platform is at the same level as the fare gate/turnstile). With this arrangement you can get away with just one elevator (for island platforms) or two (for side platforms). Of course it's always nice to have more than one of something.
Look at Jamaica Center, for example. The Parsons Archer station features an escalator that takes you directly to the lower level (if you want the J train).
With a bilevel station, two elevators are still necessary: one from the street to just outside the turnstiles and another from inside the turnstiles to the lower level.
Access is easier at a standard local station one level below the sidewalk. Escalators are not warranted for single flights (those who have difficulty climbing will use the elevator), and they're particularly undesireable on the street, where they'll get wet and break down frequently.
The ideal configuration for a local station is City Hall (N/R): a wide island platform directly below the street with fare control right on the platform (or at street level). This isn't generally possible unless the express tracks are beneath the local or are outside the local (think of Chicago's Evanston express).
Much of City Hall station is actually under City Hall Park, and this allows for the 'ideal' configuration; the sidewalk and adjacent park are fuctionally the equivalent of a mezzanine.
Escalators do get rained on unless adequately protected (cf the experience of the DC metro, or that escalator at Columbus Circle), but for new construction, it seems impossible to get away with NOT building escalators to the street.
Elevators should occur in pairs (allowing one to be out of service at any given time). Thus, for a mezzanine style station with a center platform, you would need 4 elevators. For double decker stations, with access from only one side of the street, only two would be needed, both in the vicinity of the booth. Very few people ever reverse direction, so, for stations with 24-hour manned booths, you don't really have to have paid/unpaid sets of elevators: one sets suffices for both.
"With a bilevel station, two elevators are still necessary: one from the street to just outside the turnstiles and another from inside the turnstiles to the lower level."
Actually, there is a way to do this with one elevator: a large elevator with a glass wall down the middle, with a door on the front at ground level and outside fare control and a door on the back inside fare control and on the platform. Of course, each side of the elevator has to have its own pushbuttons, emergency phone, etc.. Washington/Wells station on the Chicago Loop has just such elevators (two platforms) and therefore two elevators are used where three would otherwise be needed.
Unfortunately, the City Hall model can't work in many places. Usually a center platform would be entirely under the street and therefore you can't build an elevator straight down to it.
Also, it's very nice to be able to get into a station from both sides of the avenue.
Since this thread has been started, I'll post what I've written about several times before. On a 1966 or '67 "B" Type fan trip (2390-2391-2392) I was looking out the rear window near the end of the trip as we headed into Manhattan. At the Dekalb Ave., Lawrence St., and Chambers St. stations I saw these real old "Dekalb Ave." "Lawrence St." and "Chambers St." signs on either the southernmost or northernmost pillar of each station's northbound platform (read: an out of the way location where they either forgot to replace these signs during the 40's/50's or each one was left there on purpose).
They were pre-board of transportation style; all were upper case, and the first letter was larger than the rest. Colors were black lettering/white background - don't know if these signs were porcelain or wood. The lettering style on these signs, was the same as the tile work "LEX" lettering on the pillars or the walls at the BMT Lexington Ave. (59th St.) station. An example of the wall "LEX" can be found at this website: BMT Broadway Subway (Manhattan) in the picture selection for the Lexington Avenue station, top row lefthand most shot: http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/bmtbway/bway-lex01.jpg
I thought these signs were unique and cool looking and was going to go back and photograph them at a later time, but never did. When I first posted this over year ago, one or two people remembered the the sign at Lawrence St. Does anyone else remember seeing these? C'mon all you old BMT hands... Paul Matus? anyone else, help me out here if you can....
Imagine, every BMT station decades back had these pillar signs with this "antique style" old lettering. Does anyone out there have any of these signs, photographs of them, or know someone who does?
IIRC, these type signs were on each pillar of the Lawrence St. station right up until the early '80's, when the current white letter-on-black background signs replaced them. They were definitely still there when I started working for the TA in 1982. In fact, someone was selling one on eBay a couple of weeks ago. Forgot how much they wanted.
I don't recall offhand the particular signs you're talking about, but I did like the great old signage on the BMT and IRT before they went to that pleasant but bland Helvetica.
Some of the elevated signage was particularly nice, IMO. I liked the enamel signs on the BMT stations, and I also liked the IRT signs where they made liberal use of apostraphies, to indicate missing letters in the sign. For example (not real example) a sign might say "45'' AVENUE" with apostrophes instead of "TH"
Remember the Canarsie Line destination 8TH AV. MANH'T'N. ?
I also liked the painted information signs. I haven't been to the Transit Museum since Roger Arcara worked there. What? 20 Years? But I believe they have a great collection of signage.
>>>>But I believe they have a great collection of signage. <<<
They do, bvt it's inaccessible for the next covple of years...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Speaking of old signs and such...
So, I happen to pass through the TS complex every day. Q to 7 in the morning, 7 to Q on the way home.
My question relates to the ramps that encircle the escalator from the east end of the 7 platform to the top level of the mezzanine.
On one's way down the ramps, where ramp 2 ends and ramp 3 begins, is a walled-off passage (it's now some sort of station office). The mosaic nearest the sealed passage still says "To Street" on the top line, but has painted-over instrucions on the lower line. It appears as if it once said "To Queens" with an arrow toward the walled-off passage. And it looks like they covered that with "To BMT and Shuttle".
My question is...if one looks through the fan vent on the added-on wall, one can see that the ramp (an extension of Ramp 2, I guess) continued downgrade a bit and veered off to the left. Was this some sort of additional passage to the (now) N/R/Q/W platforms? If so, wouldn't it be great to have it back, instead of trudging up and down so many ramps?
Inquiring minds and all...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I'll take a look the next time I'm in the station.
In any case, the ramps are largely superfluous. If you're going up, use the escalators (from the A/C/E, you'll have to walk down one flight). If you're going down, use the down escalator (west of the IRT mezzanine) for the 7 or use the IRT staircases for the IND.
CH'MB'RS is still posted at the far south end of the SB local track. Look for the red pillar (the rest are blue).
In IND territory, Delancey has lots of similar old signs.
>>>At the Dekalb Ave., Lawrence St., and Chambers St. stations I saw these real
old "Dekalb Ave." "Lawrence St." and "Chambers St." signs on either the southernmost or northernmost
pillar of each station's northbound platform (read: an out of the way location where they either forgot to
replace these signs during the 40's/50's or each one was left there on purpose).
They were pre-board of transportation style; all were upper case, and the first letter was larger than the
rest. <<<
I recall the Lawrence St signs with the big L, but not a big D or C on the other two...wouldn't mind seeing a photo of the 'big L" Lawrence St sign if anyone has them.
BTW is the plan to build a transfer to the IRT at Lawrence still in the works?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Remember on the Brighton Line Newkirk Avenue had the large capital N.
>>Remember on the Brighton Line Newkirk Avenue had the large capital N.<<
Incorrect, the column signs had NEWKIRK with all the same size letters. Unless you're talking about the MTA style sign.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was driving down Broadway Bklyn this morning and as I was passing the East Side of the Flushing Av Station (Just E/O Marcus Garvey Blvd/Sumner Av) by Woodkill Woodhull Hosp I saw alot of construction on the old closed East Mezzanine and it looked like they were removing it. The heavy iron gates that used to be on the top of the stairs separating fare control was all on the sidewalk. Are they removing it?? Anyone know??
hey are reniovating the stations. For the mezzanines ,open and closed, they are replacing the wooden walls with metal and the wooden floors with cocnrete. This station will also get elevators.
Although I usually use the electric or diesel on the Microsoft Train Simulator I sometimes try the steam engines. I think I'm following all the procedures that they give on the steam tutorials however after about 5 minutes driving the train suddenly loses all power and slows to a crawl or stop. Then I get a message:Activity Ended, Fusible Plugs Melted Anyone know what I'm doin' wrong?
Not keeping the water glass full.....I think.
Try going to "Options" when the main screen stares you in the face, and chack "Automatic Fireman". That should keep the water up.....
Of course, *I* can't get the steam engine running more than 26 miles an hour myself, so I could be totally wrong on what causes the problem...but I'm positive the "Automatic Fireman" makes things a lot easier.
At least the monitor doesn't explode whent he water runs low -- like on a steam engine, the boiler could!!!
Isn't the automatic fireman default? I gotta go check it. Thanks.
I just checked it. I think you're right. I thought automatic fireman was default but evidently it isn't as it wasn't checked. The only option I had checked was "derail" to make it more realistic.
The only option I had checked was "derail" to make it more realistic.
Hey, MTS has an Amtrak mode? Neat.
Yeah ... the Amtrak derails all the time, even when it's not moving. And those 25 foot radius curves will get you every time. What a joke. Sorry, MSTS lovers, that sim is pathetic. I did finally get a chance to play with it, and as someone who's actually OPERATED trains, well ... it ain't NOTHING like the real thing ... at ALL ...
Steve, that was the perfect advice. I set it on automatic fireman and I just went the whole trip from Washington DC to Philly with the Flying Scotsman and didn't melt anything. I even stopped right at the end at Philly without hitting the bumper!!!
What are considered the Rookie lines,ANd what is Usually the Last Conductor Jobs to go?This Is my first B pick after a Long time in the A.I was Hoping for something In the South.
It’s finally official! The last WH R-29s were removed from Westchester Yard on January 21, 2002, but their final run in passenger service occurred the morning of December 26, 2001. The consist was (N)8641/8641-8633/8632-8657/8656-8683/8682-8588/8589 (S), and it was put in service for the 07:56 express trip from Pelham Bay Park. At that time there were 44 R-29s still active on the 6, but as subsequent weeks progressed they were gradually transferred to Concourse, and later to 207 Street, for disposition. On January 25, only 8682/8683 remained at Westchester Yard. Their retirement rings down the curtain on 46+ years of SMEE or “R-Type” operation on the #6 Lexington-Pelham Local, and marked the first removal of an entire group of Redbirds (the 88 WH R-29s) from passenger service.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
8682 and 83 haven't been removed already with the rest of the bunch? Geez, I wander if they're sticking around? Something's gotta be held for a Museum.....
-Stef
Westchester Yard school car?
Eh? Oh my! You may have something kind gentleman.... But wait! How can you teach new T/Os about R-142As with old technology?
-Stef
For those that remember the first SMEE cars on the No. 6 line were the R-17s that entered service on that line in late 1955.
#3 West End Jeff
Over three barge moves on January 10, January 20 and January 23, the following 100 reired redbirds have departed the NYC Transit system:
(R-26) 7772, 7773, 7786, 7787, 7794, 7795, 7808, 7809, 7812, 7813, 7816, 7817, 7824, 7825, 7826, 7827, 7830, 7831; (R-28) 7868, 7869, 7878, 7879, 7880, 7881, 7898, 7899, 7914, 7915, 7916, 7917, 7932, 7933, 7936, 7937; (WH R-29) 8572, 8573, 8578, 8579, 8584, 8585, 8586, 8587, 8594, 8595, 8598, 8599, 8602, 8603, 8606, 8607, 8626, 8627, 8644, 8645, 8650, 8651, 8660, 8661, 8672, 8673, 8674, 8675, 8680, 8681, 8684, 8685; (GE R-29) 8688, 8689, 8692, 8693, 8696, 8697, 8700, 8701, 8702, 8703, 8706, 8707, 8728, 8729, 8732, 8733, 8748, 8749, 8758, 8759, 8766, 8767, 8772, 8773, 8774, 8775, 8794, 8795, 8804, 8805; GE R-33 9236, 9237; WH WF R-36 9510, 9511 (100 Total).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
R29-8660 I thought this car would be kept
It lloks like most of the R-26/28/29s have already been retired. There are still some of these cars remaining in services however. When are the last of the "Redbirds" due to be retired from service for good?
#3 West End Jeff
Good good good going going and GONZO!!!!!! February 10th is the pick switch and I dun wanna do no RotBoids on the #5. CI Peter
Several IRT cars have turned up with a familiar tag, DESA has returned from his prison sentence and has resumed Marking his favorite 5 line.It even made the newspaper a few days ago,I experienced it first hand when My C/R position on the 1 line had this written DESA cant catch me . I hope they catch this guy and lock him up for good.
desa is a dick, he ruins it for pros, those who try to make legit money on legal graffiti,he tries to get into the game, but nowasays if you aint good with the hands and head you aint in to make money. I gotta give it to him, he IS a Clean Train King, clean trains never did interest me, ugly and useless.
"...legit money on legal graffiti..." Isn't that an oxymoron?
hello........Murals....Art Shows....Covers....OTHER. WAKE UP!
Graffiti -- in the vernacular -- connotes illegal activity. While your definition is enlightened (and technically correct), if you mention the term "graffiti" to the average man-on-the-street, I rather expect they would identify it as destructive/defacing markings.
I used to wonder if there might be some way to coat subway windows with some sort of transparent form of plastique, so that when the sharp edge of the vandal's razor blade came into repeated harsh contact with the window, it would eventually detonate, thus teaching the vandal a valuable lesson... No law-abiding citizens would be harmed...
Personally, I'm tired of trying to find anything larger than a 3 square inch patch of clear window on the railfan doors of the R-40s on the Brighton line...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Why not a in visable contenuity wire in the glass and if it is broken there is a alert to train staff. The someone can call cops and at the next station the cops will search everyone in that car and whoever has a razor will be hauled away (concealed wepon). Or when the window it cut a camera takes a pic and the guy is hauled off to jail or the poorhouse (punks living off welfare can't afford the $200 replacement cost).
So let me get this straight. An invisible (one word, by the way) wire in every piece of glass on the train - hooked to an alarm system?
Take the R-68 for example:
1 end door glass,
1 crew door glass.
16 door panel glass.
6 picture windows.
4 vent windows.
2 side sign glass.
1 Fixed window.
1 Cab door Glass.
That's 32 pieces of glass per car that customers have access to X 8 cars = 256 pieces of glass per train, all wired together in one trainline circuit hooked to an alarm?
Stop the train? Where? With a 10 - 15 minute response time by the police - where do you hold the train so as not to delay service?
Delay the train and several hundred people until police get there? Then search several hundred people until you find the vandal? Charge the perp with a misdemeanor? All for a piece of glass that might cost $100 - $300 including installation? Have you thought this through?
I have a better way of dealing with grafitti punks: cover their homes, clothes and other personal property with the "NYPD" tag. See how he likes it.
DESA is a vandal, he ruins it for paying passengers, not pros. If you think a pro is someone who defaces cars, then you should join him in jail. Increasing numbers of these turds in society are now scratching the windshield vision glasses in subway car cabs. Do you think it is ok for front page advertising at the expense of train crew safety? If so, then maybe we can find a job for you at NYCT repainting candy stripes while trains go by.
oi gevault.
let's make a distinction here: graffiti is done with paint. it can be quite artistic, or quite ugly. a 'pro' is someone who has talent, and does it only where they have permission and on canvas in order to make money, and yes, people do buy. it is it's own art form, wheither you like it or not is your own opinion (or problem, as the case may be). Like it or not, if this miserable shithole of a planet lasts another few hundred years, graffiti artists will have made their page in the history books and their works that remain worth a whole lot of cold hard cash.
scratchetti is the crap on windows, etc. it's shit that people scratch in . it's ugly and stupid - because if the scratcher is trying to get his name known, (a prime motive of many dumb newbie writers that never produce anything good and have no talent ) - they do a bad job of it. i can't read 3/4ths of the shit people scratch into plastic and windows. it's stupid and pointlessd them folks ought to pay through the nose to replace it all plus labor. No one will remember these idiots after the all the windows are replaced, etc. they will earn no page in any history book. all they'll get are large fines and a new address at rikers.
desa has been busted before. they know who he is. catching him should not be hard. he's been out of jail for a few months now, tagging up all over. why the papers are only realizing this now is a sad commentary on what passes for jouralism these days.
as anyone scratching ought to be placed in a no clearance zone to paint candy strips, so too should people who go insulting people via an internet board without knowing their ass from their elbow.seven is a good guy, and you can lick my posterior if you think different.
don't no one bother replying, cuz I ain't got sh*t else to say.
>>> let's make a distinction here: graffiti is done with paint. it can be quite artistic, or quite ugly <<<
Is painting really graffiti? Graffiti is the plural of graffito. The etymology of the word graffito is Italian for incised inscription, from "graffiare" to scratch. It is sometimes called "wall writing." In general graffiti is thought of as writing or perhaps a line drawing scratched into a surface, or spray painted on a surface using the paint can instead of pen. Once we get into the use of paints for more than a quick way to deface a surface, it seems like it is really the art of a muralist, who is an artist who paints on walls, and the result is a mural as opposed to graffito. I would certainly never call the works of Diego Rivera graffiti.
Tom
GOOD point! And a very good separating point ... the few pieces of "grafitti" I did like were all MURALS and VERY WELL DONE ones at that. Given the more precise definition here, if it's acceptable to others, then I can parlay all "grafitti" by this definition into nothing more than mindless vandalism and keep the small quantities of "actual art" apart from it entirely. This works for me. Bravo! :)
What are candy strips? Are they those red strips on a M-6 and M-2 (conneticut metro-north car)?
I've thought of a good punishment for "DESA". MAKE HIM CLEAN THE TRAIN THAT HE MARKED UP!
#3 West End Jeff
AHHHH my NEW home, the #5. Rotboid carbody includes serious study of all glass windows...scratchitti produces cracks which requires glass replacement. Scratchitti on R142 fiberglas seating is even worse and far costlier. DESA just does not know that his creations do not earn car inspectors overtime money...Rikers Island with a bottle of Tri-Zone is too good. CI Peter
Maybe DESA should get a blowtorch. Oops!
F R E E B A S I N G with ether.
If you all take note, the "Phun Phactory" near the Courthouse Square (easily visible from the train) on the Flushing line offers its wall for professional graffitti artists such as DONDI. DONDI used to blaze on th 2/5 back in the early '80's and made several whole-car pieces. He and others do some good work, and I suggest visiting the phun phactory to see some good legit pieces.
-Dan
Absolutely! And I've seen some VERY nice works there as well in pictures. One of these days, gotta get out there in person.
it's not as well maintained as it used to be, some crap has filtered back in. but it's down the road from me, so if anyone ever wants a somewhat informed tour...
My 11-year-old daughter is doing a poll for her science fair. The poll is about color theory. I'd be really grateful to any Subtalkers who could take a minute to look at the screens and enter your preference.
You will see 8 screens of different colors, then you will be asked whether you are <18 or >=18, then you vote for your favorite. You can see how others have voted. You can also leave a comment, if you wish.
Thanks! To take the poll, click here.
The times are recorded in Mountain Standard Time (MST). Has Long Island been shifted west?
It might have been useful to show a contrasting color, since one assumes the color shown is a background for text.
The server for all the screens is on the east coast (MD or VA, I think), but the poll is compiled at a site called freepolls.com. So I guess they're the ones in the Mountain Time Zone.
My wife is a fabric and "artwear" designer and her input was to keep the screens as monochrome as possible to test "pure" theory. My daughter agreed, but wanted the screens textured to make them more interesting, and she did all the design and type and the web pages.
I thought there should be contrasting text but got voted down. Maybe it's a male-female thing? :)
I just did it. Now your daughter can have additional fun with the project determining the statistical error that's introduced when colourblind people like me take the poll!
-Robert King
Well, I voted for the gray, on the assumption that it was for a background. Having stared at computer screens for my entire adult working life:
White text against a blue background
Green text against a black background
Windows’ black text against a dull white background
work best for me.
None of the colors presented (especially with the textures) would have been a good background.
John
Even if the 2nd Avenue passes all the environmental tests, has enough funding etc. it'll still take 15 years till we see trains on 2nd Avenue and I'll be almost 60 (yikes)!
How about building it piecemeal and opening a Stubway first, either 63rd-125th or 63rd downtown to Chatham? Is that possible?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I agree that the Northern Stubway should be built first.
I'd be curious if the older guys agree with us, and the younger ones say "hold out for the whole enchilada." The reason I think there'll be an age difference in opinion is because the younger guys will be more optimistic that we can hold out for perfection, while the older guys, seeing no Second Avenue Subway after a half-century (from the first bond issue) figure that a stub in the hand is worth a full-length in the bush!
BTW...how come it'll take 15 years to build the 2nd Avenue? IIRC, it took the MBTA less than 5 years to build the Orange Line, which is admittedly in an open cut for the most part. No big dig problems there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
BTW...how come it'll take 15 years to build the 2nd Avenue?
You know, the easy (and at least partly true) answer would be that nothing gets built in a big hurry around here. OTOH, on reflection, I wonder whether they are now applying a construction theory long used in NYS highway construction, esp. when Cuomo was gov.
It goes like this: A steadily working labor force is a happy (and voting) labor force. If you can keep a steady stream of work, without big spikes of hiring and laying off work proceeds better, the guys are happier, and they show it at the polls. So keeping a steady flow of work becomes more important than completing a particular project.
Just a thought...
Then how about racing through a big project with your permanent labour force as quickly as is possible, then starting on the next big project? You still have to pay them, so make them work for the money!
Major projects are done by private contractors who bid on them and employ construction trades workers. Let's say the work force is x number of workers. You try to time your projects so that it provides steady employment for those x workers. If you rush a big project you will have to hire more workers, so now you may have 3x workers, but when the big project ends and you don't have the funds for another big project you have x workers working again but you have 2x workers unemployed. That's 2x unhappy workers.
New York State math.
That's not just true in New York. You've identified a major concern for aerospace companies, defense firms, construction companies who build power plants, houses and airports, etc.
That problem is everywhere.
Then you use Mefo notes and deficit financing to make up the difference. That's everyone else's math. If you are employing someone to employ someone to do something, you cut out the middle man too. That makes sense, unless the middle man is an accounting fiddle to benefit you. That is why the Abyssinian Campaign was run by the Indian Army, as it took 6 weeks longer for the cost to reach London. There are no such pressing reasons for middle men in PUBLIC works. I often quote that America has the lowest public spending per passenger journey on Earth and Britain the second least. It is also the case that both of those countries have a railway which is in a state of disrepair and disuse and either has gone or is going bankrupt. The construction workers should be permanent employees of the Federal Government to use as it sees fit if America's infrastructure is to see any real improvement. Yes, I know that means they could be deployed outside NYC, but that may be a good thing. That way a construction bill of billions of dollars begins to seem tiny. Yes, I know this may not be the American dream way of doing things, but nor is Amtrack going swimming.
You need to deal with the culture the way it is. When you try to accept "a better model" sometimes you end up in more trouble than when you started, because at least people understand the current model.
What you seem to be proposing is that we have public empolyees do the construction. Maybe this works where you are, but in New York, you would have an entirely new dedicated work force that would become their own reason for existence. Of course, I suppose we could hope that the existence of such a force would mean that they would have to find a continuing stream of worthwhile projects, but you might find a workforce with a guaranteed income looking to do the least possible to earn it.
"Eliminating the middleman" doesn't, unfortunately, mean that you eliminate the middleman. Instead of having an outside contractor be the middleman in hope of a profit, you have a government bureaucracy performing the same functions. Difference? The contractor middelmen have to bid against each other to secure projects. The government bureaucracy middlemen are like life tenure potentates.
Maybe this works where you are, but in New York
It doesn't work like that here either.
Instead of having an outside contractor be the middleman in hope of a profit, you have a government bureaucracy performing the same functions. Difference? The contractor middelmen have to bid against each other to secure projects. The government bureaucracy middlemen are like life tenure potentates.
I disagree. The highest paid local government functionary would be on about £50,000 - that's $75,000. The highest paid construction functionary would be on £500,000 - that's $750,000. I'd rather get rid of all those wasteful construction officers and pay public servants at a tenth of the cost.
The trouble is, it's nearly impossible to fire a less than competent civil servant. Not that long ago, the TA's engineering department was notorious (and still may be) for being filled with second and third rate talent (why would they go for an ill-paid TA job when they can get something much better paying in private industry?).
That is an interesting problem. If you get a low-grade Cro-Magnon type moron in a critical civil service job, then you end up paying him or her a salary, and hiring a consultant for 5X the normal pay to do what the civil servant was supposed to do.
There are downsides to using the contractors also. It's a matter of finding that fine balance that gives you the most for your money. Not an easy problem to solve, and neither approach works perfectly all the time.
That makes sense, but such things just do not happen in the politics of New York.
Hmmm...define "older".
I'm 39 and a relative newcomer (1996) to actually living within the 5 boroughs. Grew up in NJ. Used to ride the CNJ as a kid...
Personally, I oppose the "Stubway".
That is primarily because I feel the "half a loaf" concept wouldn't do anything substantial to alleviate the crowds the Lex. Ave line it is designed to address. My fear is that if the Stubway is built, then (naturally) no one will ride it `cause it doesn't do anything for them, and the Lex will still be a mess cause no one rides the 2nd Ave. line, and then the naysayers will (rightfully) say "See, we told you so". Indeed, whatever people DO actually ride the Stubway will only wind up making the already intolerable situation at GC even worse. Capital U, capital G, capital H.
The end result will be... not only will the lower section of the 2nd line never get built, but nothing else ever will, either. And the 2nd Ave stubway will become a national monument to senseless waste of billions of dollars of taxpayer money.
My two cents...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Hmmm...define "older".
Old enough that you've seen a number of more-or-less grandiose plans come and go and nothing gets built and you may have lost faith that you will ever get the "whole loaf" in your lifetime--that "half a loaf" has become the alternative to "none."
Notwithstanding, your points are well taken, but I personally believe the Stubway via Broadway FOR THE SHORT term would be the most bang for the buck that I currently see available.
In order for me to enthusiastically hold out for "the full loaf" I would have to see a shift in City priorities that would make transit construction as politicaly and socially important as it was 100 years ago.
Bird in hand ... 'nuff said.
In my second half century.
Build the stubway first. It WILL relieve the Lex and then there will be a big demand for it to go to Wall St and not just the BMT route.
The 'stub' will take some passengers off the Lex -- those working north of about 68th St. who work in the Midtown central-Midtown west area, but it's meandering route to downtown will discourage many riders (unless they can get seats) from using it over the Lex.
But just the impetus of getting something built on the East Side would increase the chances that funding would come through for either the remainder of the route to Whitehall or to Delancey, espcially from the people living near Second Ave south of the Queensborough Bridge.
but it's meandering route to downtown will discourage many riders
I disagree. I believe the Broadway-2nd Avenue routing will be more popular than the straight 2nd Avenue route, because the midtowm leg goes much closer to more destinations that people want to go to.
Upper East Side residents going no further south than 23rd St. would probably opt for the 63rd St. route, because it does serve a more business-oriented area. But once you get south of Madison Square and the BMT is back on the east side of Fifth Ave., then the Second Ave. route becomes a more logical route to take.
The other factor is how the transfers from 63rd St south to the Second Ave. line will be handled. Potentially, a route could be run from Queens down Second Ave. via 63rd St., and there could also be transfer tunnels at 57-54th Sts, to connect with the E/V, at 42nd St. to connect with the 7 and at 14th St. to connect with the L that could also funnel riders headed downtown onto the Second Ave. line (though from downtown the L transfer would only serve a limited area of northwest Brooklyn, since the J/M/Z would still be an option).
I began to think more about the problems of an all-Second Avenue routing after reading Alex Cohen's article on the demolition of the 2nd Avenue el.
The Second Avenue was always a far second in ridership and service to the Third, though it was only a long block away. Part of it would be because the 3rd tapped further into the Bronx, but you also have to consider that the 2nd was less centrally located and further from midtown. As a counterpoint to the 3rds reach into the Bronx, though, the 2nd had the ridership BOOST of being the only way for Queens riders to reach City Hall and Downtown with a one-seat ride.
I wonder how the politics would sort out if thw MTA were to shift gears and say: "We can get only so many dollars so we have to make a choice. You can have the whole Second Avenue Subway within 10 years OR you can get the upper Second Avenue Subway AND one of the badly needed routes into an underserved area of the City, such as Flatlands by building a Utica Avenue Line to Kings Plaza, in the same time frame."
I'm sure politicians could easily kill the thing if they managed to pit one area of the city against the other by pushing an either/or option like that to their constituents.
As far as the ridership goes, The bulk of the 63rd St. and above destination points would be residential, just as it is on most other lines. South of 63rd, commercial development along Third Ave. has increased over the past 47 years since the el came down to the point that a Second Ave. line would be a viable link for riders not only traveling from the upper east side but from other parts of the city, if the transfer connections are adequate.
However, Houston St., 14th and Grand (if they opt for the Chatham Square-Water St. route) are the only "easy" transfer spots a Second Ave. line would have. The line can be connected up to the E/V and the 7 (or to the N/R/W if they opted for a station at 57th-59th Sts. instead of 54th-57th), but that would require building transfer tunnels between 900 and 1,100 feet long to connect with the existing stations (unless they built a United Nations station on the 7). With the Lex far closer to the existing station, riders coming in from Queens might still opt for a crowded trip on the 4/5/6 over a long walk east to Second Ave. for a trip downtown on emptier cars.
The Second Avenue was always a far second in ridership and service to the Third, though it was only a long block away. Part of it would be because the 3rd tapped further into the Bronx, but you also have to consider that the 2nd was less centrally located and further from midtown.
On the other hand, the eastern edge of Midtown was much less developed back in the el era than it is today.
But just the impetus of getting something built on the East Side would increase the chances that funding would come through for either the remainder of the route to Whitehall or to Delancey, espcially from the people living near Second Ave south of the Queensborough Bridge.
That's true - IF the stubway construction is completed in a reasonably prompt manner within budget. If, on the other hand, construction drags on for years and years and results in massive cost overruns, the chances of a full-length line will be less than zero.
Yep -- if the line becomes the New York City version of Boston's Big Dig, additional funding would dry up pretty fast. But it is interesting to see how fast things can get done and how they can be done under cost estimates -- like the WTC cleanup or even the current 1/9 tunnel repair schedule -- if the desire is there on the part of the politicians, contractors, unions, etc., though admittedly, the WTC is a special case.
a stub in the hand is worth a full-length in the bush!
Where are you when we need you, Sigmund?
I'm 19, and I agree with you that the stubway should go first. The whole thing will take the same amount of time to build anyway, this way SOME people can get use out of it before it's completed. The first subway was built from City Hall to 145th/B'way even though the plan was to run the line out to Van Cortlandt Park in the north, to 145/Lenox, to Bronx Park, South Ferry and the Flatbush LIRR terminal.
If stubway were built as a less useful section to begin with, they might be forced to spend more money on it in the near future to get a return on their investment. Therefore, a 4-track section from 42nd to 86th St with a connection to the Broadway line at 63rd St might increase the chances of getting a real subway line there. Stubway as it stands is too far uptown to force expansion and too long to eventually give a 4 track trunk line.
The cost of a 4-track line is so astronomical at this point that it destroys your rationale right from the start.
At this point the critical issue is to start building. The time for arguing over motive and strategy are over. It's time to pull out the shovels and TBM and start building. All else is rubbish.
The cost of a 4-track line is so astronomical at this point that it destroys your rationale right from the start.
Ever heard of ECONOMIES OF SCALE???
At this point the critical issue is to start building. The time for arguing over motive and strategy are over. It's time to pull out the shovels and TBM and start building. All else is rubbish.
On that I do agree with you. However, the current plan only works in the short run. Remember, real growth only happens in the long run.
"Ever heard of ECONOMIES OF SCALE???"
Indeed I have. But when you're talking about billions of dollars in costs, there may be a threshold for up-front cash that the MTA is unwilling to cross, even if the larger figure is more cost-effective.
Your concept isn't wrong, but our dependence on the legislature and a transit-unfriendly Republican Administration in Washington make it unlikely we'll get the extra dollars. To borrow an old Star Trek phrase, it isn't logical, but it is often true.
Oh, by the way, in my previous post I closed by bhorrowing a phrase from Oswald Boelcke.
I always believe in appropriate attribution.
but our dependence on the legislature and a transit-unfriendly Republican Administration in Washington make it unlikely we'll get the extra dollars.
It is really a dependence on a hyper-monetarist economic perspective. Minimise risk. Minimise inflation. Minimise growth. Increase profits, then live a life of luxury off them rather than creating some public good. It may be economically a sound theory (as are others), but it is not one I particualarly like, nor do I see it as a politically useful way of proceeding. One of the reasons why I am active in British politics is my disagreement with the economic and political thought in vogue at the moment. Another is my imagination.
I'm glad you are active. I agree with your sentiments.
and a transit-unfriendly Republican Administration in Washington
This is no longer an excuse. Republican administrations are no more friendly or unfriendly to transit than Democrats. Transit is now a locally-driven issue, and that means local Republicans as well as local Democrats. Since 1980, we have had a Republican administration in DC for all but 8 years, and the Clinton Administration's record on transit was dismal, especially in regard to expectations. Spending on transit remained flat in actual dollars under Clinton which meant that it declined in real dollars, as highway spending rose. And if you want to look at the broad picture, who was the first President to try to cut Amtrak's throat, giving rise, among other things, to the NARP? Jimmy Carter.
OTOH, one of the first things Dubya signalled after taking office was to affirm full funding for transit. A lot of transit has been built in the last 20 years, but not in NY.
The "enemy" is right here. New York City and State have otehr fish to fry besides transit.
OTOH, one of the first things Dubya signalled after taking office was to affirm full funding for transit. A lot of transit has been built in the last 20 years, but not in NY.
Which is precisely why the federal government is channeling transit funding to other cities. Those places can get things done. New York cannot. Better that the limited pool of transit funding be spent on actual construction than on yet another round of worthless "studies."
The "enemy" is right here. New York City and State have other fish to fry besides transit.
More precisely, the city and state continue to overspend to an obscene degree on Medicaid.
I can't agree completely. Washington is a bad example. Washington Metrorail is such a glamour symbol now, it would have been funded even if Rush Limbaugh had been President.
As to the rest of your argument, yes, New York does shoot itself in the foot; on the other hand, you're completely ignoring the fact that New York spends more each year on repair and renovation to its existing system than a lot of other cities, COMBINED, spend on new routes.
I stand by my previous argument. George Bush can say he's pro-transit, but it's fiction unless he proves it (eg Second Av subway funding, funding for Schuylkill Valley Metro in Philadelphia, etc.)
BTW, his successor down in Texas, Gov. Rick Perry, is scheduled on Tuesday to propose a massive increase in the state's intercity passenger rail system, creating regular operating lines between Dallas/Fort Worth, Austin, San Antonio and Houston. Interstate 35 is one of the worst bottlenecks in the country, so we'll see what the federal government's reaction in terms of funding is to this (I'm guessing favorable, though the more interesting reaction will be House Whip Tom DeLay, who has been fighting tooth and nail to block building a light rail system near his home area on the southwest side of Houston).
It's a positive step, but results count...
I stand by my previous argument. George Bush can say he's pro-transit, but it's fiction unless he proves it (eg Second Av subway funding, funding for Schuylkill Valley Metro in Philadelphia, etc.)
I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that the main influence on transit is local politics, not Democrat or Republican.
I'm 30, and I'm for the northern section being built first.
I think "stubway" is actually a misnomer, since it suggests that it won't connect to anything. It most certainly will connect, directly to 63rd St and Broadway, and indirectly (but easily, with an across-the-platform transfer) to 6th Ave. A more adequate term would be "extension", since it would really be an extension of the northern tracks of 63rd. Unlike with the connection to Queens Blvd, nothing that is open will have to be rebuilt--the line was built with 2nd Ave in mind.
More importantly, it will be essentially a full-length line even if only the upper half is built, just one via upper 2nd Ave then 63rd St to Broadway. It won't serve everyone on the east side, but it will nonetheless serve stations reasonably close to the Lex in lower midtown through downtown (Herald Square, Union Square, Canal, and via transfer to local all stops in between), enough to get many people off the Lex.
Of course the full length line would be better, and evetually it should well be built. But insisting on all or nothing will get you the latter.
:-) Andrew
Excellent point. I just want to see somebody pull out a shovel and start digging...
I'd like to hear from advocates for the extension of the Second Avenue Line beyond 125th St. to Pelham Bay Park and/or 205/Norwood St.
An inexpensive expansion with a major increase length.
Perhaps the Eastchester-Dyre Ave line, to provide express track for layup service.
avid.
The 1968 MTA master plan called for the Second Avenue Subway to be built upper section first, then lower section. The politicians got involved and made MTA try to do the whole thing at once. Then the city's fiscal condition tanks. The result? Holes all over Second Avenue, but no subway.
Fast forward to the 1990s through present: MTA proposes to build the Second Avenue subway with the upper section being built first, then the lower. The politicians get involved and make MTA try to build the whole thing at once. Then the city's fiscal condition tanks. The result? Well, we haven't seen any result yet...
David
1990s through present: MTA proposes to build the Second Avenue subway with the upper section being built first, then the lower. The politicians get involved and make MTA try to build the whole thing at once. Then the city's fiscal condition tanks.
Yeah, but even if the politicians HADN'T gotten involved (and I for one am glad that they got the TA committed to engineering a full-length subway from the start) we wouldn't be any further along than we are right now. So your point is kinda moot.
My point isn't moot when connected to the previous paragraph (which was snipped from the post I'm responding to now). Taken together, they show that nothing has been learned from history, at least by politicians, where the Second Avenue Subway is concerned.
David
If you believe that, and it matters to you, then write to your legislators and keep up the pressure to begin the construction, by 2004, of the upper segment of the new subway.
Heh ... bird ... hand ... orgasm ... 'nuff said. :)
The 1968 MTA master plan called for the Second Avenue Subway to be built upper section first, then lower section.
Wasn't this the successor to the same agency that called for the entire Third Ave El's removal just 20 years earlier?
In this regard rail transit planning has been worse than the WPA - dig a hole and fill it in. At least the WPA did fill in those holes - the transit planners have been successful at tearing down.
How about building it piecemeal and opening a Stubway first, either 63rd-125th or 63rd downtown to Chatham? Is that possible?
Neither half does much. The whole isn't much better.
The purpose for the 125th-63rd St section is to provide an alternate method for East Siders to travel to Wall St. This involves running 2nd Ave trains on the BMT and rebuilding the junction at Canal St to route expresses via the tunnel and locals via the bridge. This does inconvenience many more thousands of Brooklyn riders trying to get to midtown. Well, omletts and eggs. The result is that the uptown segment represents much more than half the total project cost.
The planners could have cut costs without losing functionality or sticking it to Brooklyn by rebuilding the 57th-7th junction correctly - allowing 63rd St trains to access both the local and express tracks directly. This would be a lot less disruptive and costly. However, affordability has NEVER been a criterion for any of the 2nd Ave Subway planning studies.
The purpose for the 63rd-South Ferry section is to provide additional capacity for the "thousands" of extra passengers who will be entering Grand Central Terminal on the 8 extra LIRR trains. These people will want to go to Wall St, so the route will have to go past Chatham Square, otherwise these people would be able to use the existing surplus capacity on the Lexington Ave Locals south of Grand Central. How many people can fit on these 8 extra LIRR trains? How many of these people would be going downtown?
There is very little economic justification for the southern section as a complete line. The other possibility is for trains from Queens. However, according to the NYCT, their ability to turn around locals is already maxed out at Forest Hills. Otherwise, they would have had no trouble keeping the G running to Continental.
This does not mean that no section of the 2nd Ave subway should not be built soon. A section should be built from 63rd to 72nd Sts with all deliberate speed. The purpose for this section would be to serve as a relay for reversing trains on both the 6th and 7th Ave lines. This would provide extra capacity for Brooklyn riders without forcing the TA to run the extra trains all the way to Queens or the Bronx. The call for making this relay the first priority of any 2nd Ave improvements (including the Chrystie St connection) was noted by the Board of Transportation in their 1949 report.
The planners could have cut costs without ... sticking it to Brooklyn by rebuilding the 57th-7th junction correctly - allowing 63rd St trains to access both the local and express tracks directly.
I can't speak to effects on Brooklyn riders. But a Second Avenue train from the UES that ran local on the Broadway line *could not possibly* be time-competitive with the IRT in getting to the financial district. The nice thing about the Lex express is that from 86th Street, it's only 6 stops to Wall Street. Which is why 86th Street is so packed in the morning.
To get from 86th/2nd to the Rector BMT station (same longitude as Wall Street further east) would be 15 stops, assuming (two-track) Second Avenue stops at 72nd and Lex/63rd, then 13 BMT local stops starting at 57th. Using BMT express tracks (assuming the rebuilt Canal junction) would only be 8 stops.
Not sure what the projected travel times are under these scenarios, but running the Second Avenue line local on BMT tracks will prevent ANYONE from using it to access downtown in preference to the IRT. You will certainly get midtown workers who want a one-seat ride from UES to west midtown. But to solve the crush on Lex expresses, you CANNOT use Broadway local tracks!
But a Second Avenue train from the UES that ran local on the Broadway line *could not possibly* be time-competitive with the IRT in getting to the financial district. The nice thing about the Lex express is that from 86th Street, it's only 6 stops to Wall Street.
The difference in running time between BMT locals and expresses would be 3 minutes. Look at the current MTA timetables. The running time between 57th and Canal Sts for the R local is 14 minutes and 11 minutes for the Q express.
Which is why 86th Street is so packed in the morning.
The express is the only single seat ride. A better strategy for an Upper East Sider would be to take the local from 86th and change for the express at Union Sq. This would insure that the leave load would never exceed 90% (51st St) as opposed to 116% (86th St) for the direct route. If one sufficiently values one's dignity and privacy, certain sacrifices in travel time should be expected.
A better strategy for an Upper East Sider would be to take the local from 86th and change for the express at Union Sq. ... If one sufficiently values one's dignity and privacy, certain sacrifices in travel time should be expected.
You're proposing that I take more time AND switch trains to preserve "dignity and privacy"?
Hah!
The actual time may be only three minutes. Same on some other express routes. Probably a whole lot more than the time involved, it's the stopping and starting that people find annoying. I agree with JV.
But what is the ratio of people on the Upper East Side who have destinations in Lower Manhattan compared to those who have Midtown destinations?
I would think that a Second Avenue line via Broadway would take passengers with Midtown destinations off the Lex, thereby increasing capacity on the Lex for those who go to the Financial District. In other words, if you want Midtown, take the Second Avenue, if you want Downtown, take the Lex.
That it would, but there are also significant locations south of 63rd Street, which is not quite downtown yet, and south of 42nd Street, also not downtown yet but where the IRT swerves away from the East River. These locations have very inconvenient subway service, so the Stubway does nothing for that. The Broadway connection (the Stubway) is useful and should be retained, but it is clearly not sufficient in and of itself.
The justification for a Second Av line is so that people from Harlem to the '60's have a way of riding all the way downtown without changing trains. It also provides subway access to areas where you now have a long walk to the Lex (especially below 42nd Street).
The purpose for the 63rd-South Ferry section is to provide additional capacity for the "thousands" of extra passengers who will be entering Grand Central Terminal on the 8 extra LIRR trains. These people will want to go to Wall St, so the route will have to go past Chatham Square, otherwise these people would be able to use the existing surplus capacity on the Lexington Ave Locals south of Grand Central. How many people can fit on these 8 extra LIRR trains? How many of these people would be going downtown?
Not many. Except for Pt. Washington riders, the best way to get to the Financial District on the LIRR is via Flatbush Avenue. I very much doubt that it will change even with a full-length line on Second Avenue.
Exactly what I was thinking. First get it built to 72nd street.
Opening the upper half first is realistic becuase hardly ANY new subway line in the world is built all at once. They are all built in phases. Especially in the USA, no other subway gets federal funding for the whole thing at one time, so NYC won't either. Look at DC, they are the spoiled transit system (guaranteed $200 million a year until it was finished) and even they couldn't open an entire line at one time.
From an article in last week's Downtown Express:
"The M.T.A. is no longer talking about the much-derided 'stubway' which would have gone from 125th St. and stopped at 63rd St. Thanks to political pressure from politicians like Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, U.S. Rep. Carolyn Maloney and others, everyone seems ready to build the tracks all the way down near Manhattan's southern tip."
The accompanying graphic also clears up what color/letter designation the line will have <vbg>
The accompanying graphic also clears up what color/letter designation the line will have
Huh!
Well, if they do use the Water St alignment, then it would indeed have to be a new color.
:-) Andrew
I like that question mark. "Take the ? Train". Cute, very cute.
Heh. I *like* the designation for the line ... should end rider confusion as to what train they're on. :)
Zupan does make a point when he says "If they built the stubway first, it would say we're not going to Lower Manhattan at a time when they're trying to get businesses to go to Lower Manhattan.... New York City is littered with projects that were only built in part," though Ms. Morrow is wrong later in the article when she says the Nassau St. link would jam up the line -- it wouldn't, so long as either the J/M/Z trains or the Second Ave. trains terminated at Chambers, while the other line(s) continued south to Broad Street or Brooklyn.
The Water Street route does offer service to more areas that don't have stations right now, though as I've said before, runnig the line downtown via Nassau Street would allow the city to argue more plausably in Washington that the extended line is part of the WTC area rebuilding project, expecially if the entire Fulton Street IRT/BMT/IND complex is included in that long underground connecting tunnel the Times and the News talked about recently. If the actual cost comes in closer to the $5 billion range mentioned in the article, building down Water Street shouldn't be a financial roadblock, but if it really does end up in the $15 billion range, then cutting a few billion by using the Nassau Loop makes a lot more sense.
I don't understand why everyone keeps forgetting that the stubway WILL go downtown -- via the Broadway line!!
Hopefully the won't waste a single cent building the "Canal Street Switch" The Broadway connection was intended to provide 2nd Avenue pax with Midtown access, because 2nd Avenue is too far east to be of use to most people. In downtown however, the 2nd Avenue route would run in the prime of downtown, whether via Nassau Street or Water Street. The line under Trinity Place on the other hand is pretty much like 2nd Avenue, especially without the WTC.
But barring a track switch south of 7th Ave.-57th St., it won't be a one-seat ride all the way downtown, since the 63rd St. tracks will come out on the Broadway BMT express tracks.
Second Ave. riders would eliminate the crowding on the Lex, but if they're going south of Canal, they'll have to change to the R or the W (or the N) by 14th St. in order to avoid a long walk upstairs at Canal to continue further downtown.
Great article. It gives your the option of emailing in your opinion. I sent mine in!
Yes! building the stubway first means the fastest possible implimentation of service on the East Side.
Here are some ideas i have on subway expansion that would be neat if they could happen. Unfortunately, some of these ideas are great in theory but may be impractical due to track limits and the differences between divisions, if the Second Avenue line is proposed to be built meeting IND/BMT standards.
THE FLUSHING LINE
It would be nice to have a permanent, 6 am-10pm Flushing Express to be designated the 11 train. This would greatly relieve congestion on the Flushing Line. The Flushing line should be extended out to the Bayside area via Northern Boulevard, having the 7 Flushing Local continue to terminate at Main Street, but having the 11 run express to Main Street, then local to Bayside.
Also, on the Manhattan Side, the Flushing Line, both 7 and 11, will continue to 42nd/11th Avenue. It will run south on 11th to the Javits Center, and on to terminate near 23rd/11th. This will bring much-needed subway service to the far West Side.
N TO LAGUARDIA
It would be nice to extend the N east towards LaGuardia and East Elmhurst. This would provide the airport with direct subway access, and access to a somewhat under-served section of Queens. Perhaps having the N run Astoria Local to Ditmars, and have the W run Astoria Express and a local to LaGuardia.
NEW LOTS EXTENSION
It would be nice to extend the New Lots line through East New York, into South Ozone park, and end at JFK or possibly the South Jamaica or Springfield Gardens area. A one seat ride to Manhattan from JFK seriously needs to be developed, and im not talking about AirTrain.
NOSTRAND AVENUE EL
It would be nice to extend the 2/<5> line on Nostrand Avenue south from its Nostrand/Flatbush terminal. Extend the line down Flatbush Avenue, and end it at Flatbush/Utica, serviced by the 2. In addition, run the <5> as the permanent (5) and run full time through a spur to Canarsie/Starrett City through the Flatlands. The spur will leave the Flatbush Av extension at Avenue J, go east on J to Flatlands Av, and continue out Flatlands Av to Rockaway Pkwy and possibly to Pennsylvania Av. This will bring service to the Flatlands and the last remaining areas of southern Brooklyn without adequate subway service.
THE <5> AND (5)
Eliminate the difference between the Diamond and Circle 5's, and run one 5 from Flatlands (see above) to Dyre Avenue, running as an Express between 149 st and 180th all times. The Diamond 5 to 238th St will be replaced by the 10, which will run permanently to 238th via the Second Avenue Subway, and on to Staten Island.
THE PELHAM LINE
The 6 express shall be designated the 8 train, and run via the Second Avenue Subway. The current 6 Pelham Local will continue to terminate at Pelham Bay Park, but the 8 will have an extension to Co-Op City. The 6 Pehlam Local will continue to terminate at Brooklyn Bridge on the Lex, but the 8 will run via the Second Av Line to Staten Island.
THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY
The Second Avenue Line will be built to IRT Specs and run the 8 Co-Op City Pelham Express-Tottenville and the 10 238th St-Mariners Harbor lines. The Second Avenue will also have a 12 train, which will be a Broad/South Ferry-125th St Local. The 8-Co-op and the 10-238th will run as expresses on the Second Avenue Line. The Line will run as a 4-track subway along Second Av, and via Water to a large transfer station at Broad/Whitehall/South Ferry/Bowling Green. The 8 and 10 trains will continue through a 5-mile tunnel under the harbor to St. George. The 8 will run along the current SIRT line to Tottenville. The 10 will run along the North Shore line, and end at Mariner's Harbor. Not only will this give Staten Island a one-seat ride to Manhattan, but it will also revive the North Shore line.
A NEW LOWER MANHATTAN/SOUTH FERRY TERMINAL
Instead of having Whitehall, South Ferry, Bowling Green, Broad, and the new Second Avenue terminal on Water, they should be integrated into a large free-transfer station incorporating all the lines, similar to Fulton St. The new terminal should be called South Ferry.
AN EXTENSION TO THE WEST SIDE IRT
Instead of having the 1/9 terminate at South Ferry, have a tunnel run across the harbor to Brooklyn, but under Governor's Island. That way, an option to build a Governor's Island station exists, and subway service will enter Red Hook, and the 1/9 will terminate there.
THE NEW WORLD TRADE CENTER STATION
It would be nice to have a multiple-level subway complex under the WTC that is more efficient than the existing one. Have the E train terminate on the uppermost level. On the Second Level, have the 1/9 and N/R terminate on the same level, right next to each other. So all one needs to do for a transfer is to use a crossover to cross the tracks between platforms. And, finally, have the PATH terminate on the bottom level, or on a different section of the Second Level. So this entire complex is within one convenient, free transfer zone with multiple exits to the street.
THE G TO MANHATTAN
Run the G permanently from Forest Hills-71st to 2nd Av-LES via Rutgers and the Bklyn-Qns Crosstown line. This brings the G to Manhattan.
THE CULVER EXPRESS/V TRAIN
Build a second Rutgers Tunnel, and run the V as a Culver Express from Kings Highway to Queens Village, as a local on the Qns Blvd line.
QUEENS BOULEVARD SUBWAY
Make the Queens Blvd Subway a 6-track mega-line. F runs Coney Island/Culver local to Queens Village as an extension to the Hillside Av line. The F runs express all the way on the Qns Blvd line to Sutphin, where it becomes local the rest of the way to Queens Village. The V will run as the F does now, as a local after Forest Hills, and follow the Hillside extension to Qns Village. The F will run like the E does after Forest Hills as express, but follow the Hillside Av extension as a local.
The R train will go from Bay Ridge to Forest Hills via the Broadway line as a local, like currently, but will also operate an Extension from FH-71st to Fresh Meadows.
The G will be a local from 2nd AV-LES to FH-71st via the Bklyn-Qns Crosstown and the Broadway Qns Lines.
With the added track capacity, the H train can be created to run as a LOCAL on Queens Blvd from FH-71st to Manhattan, where it will run as a compliment to the A. It will skip the stops on the Qns Broadway line, and enter Manhattan with the E, F, and V. The H will replace the current A to Lefferts Blvd.
EXTENSION OF LEFFERTS BLVD LINE
Extend the Lefferts Blvd El to the St. Albans area, and run the H on it instead of the A-Lefferts.
****AFTER ALL THE ABOVE ADJUSTMENTS, THESE SERVICE CHANGES WILL BE APPLIED****
-7 Flushing Local, Main Street to 23rd/11th Av
-11 Bayside via Flushing Express, Bell Blvd-Bayside to 23rd/11th Av
-N Coney Island(S.B.) to Ditmars-Astoria via Broadway Local OR to LaGuardia/E. Elmhurst
-W could possibly be an Astoria and Broadway express to LaGuardia if N ends at Ditmars.
-3 148th-Harlem to JFK/Springfield Gardens
-2 Wakefield-241st to Flatbush/Utica via the Nostrand Line
-5 Dyre Av to Flatlands/Canarsie/Starrett City via Nostrand and Flatlands Av.
-10 to replace <5> to 238th, to run via Second Av to Mariners Harbor, SI via North Shore Line
-6 Pelham/Lex local from Pelham Bay Pk to Bklyn Bridge on the Lex..Local all times
-8 Co-Op/Tottenville Express. Express on the Pelham Line, and local extension to CO-Op City. Express via Second Av Subway, and follow current SIRT line to Tottenville.
-12 Second Av Local. Local from 125th to the new South Ferry terminal.
-1,9,4,5,J,M,Z,8,10,12,N,and R to stop at a new, integrated South Ferry Terminal in Lower Manhattan
-1/9 242-Van Cortlandt Locals to run to Red Hook via tunnel through Governor's Island.
-Newer WTC station
-G Queens Boulevard Local, Forest Hills/71st Av to 2nd Avenue/Lower East Side local all times all lines via Rutgers Tunnel and the Brooklyn/Queens Crosstown line.
-V Culver Express, Queens Blvd Express, Hillside Local; Kings Highway to Queens Village via Queens Blvd Line and a Hillside Av Extension. Express on Queens Blvd, run like the current F is, and run through the new Qns Village Extension.
-F Culver Local, Queens Blvd Express, Queens Village/Hillside Local; Local from Coney Island, Express on Queens Blvd, similar to Current E, and Local on Hillside extension after Sutphin, to Queens Village.
-R Broadway Local, Queens Blvd Local, Fresh Meadows; Bay Ridge to Fresh Meadows via Queens Blvd local to FH-71st, and a new branch to Fresh Meadows.
-H Queens Blvd Local, Eighth Avenue Express to St. Albans; Run as local from Forest Hills-71st, on 8th Avenue Line, and out on the Lefferts Branch on an extension to St. Albans, replacing the A to Lefferts.
QUEENS BOULEVARD WILL NOW HAVE 3 LOCALS....
-2 to Forest Hills-71st (H,G)
-1 to Fresh Meadows Via FH-71st (R)
....AND ONE PARTIAL EXPRESS
-V runs Express till FH-71st, then local to Queens Village via Hillside Av
...AND TWO FULL EXPRESSES
-E to Jamaica Center/Parsons Archer
-F to Queens Village, local on the Hillside Line
STATEN ISLAND WILL GET DIRECT RAIL SERVICE VIA THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY
FLATLANDS, CANARSIE, LOWER FLATBUSH AV AND STARRETT CITY WILL RECEIVE SUBWAY ACCESS
ST. ALBANS WILL RECEIVE ACCESS WITH THE (H) AND SPRINGFIELD GARDENS AND JFK WILL WITH THE (3)
LAGUARDIA AND EAST ELMHURST WILL GET ACCESS WITH THE (N) OR THE (W)
BAYSIDE AND THE WEST SIDE WILL GET ACCESS WITH EXTENSIONS TO THE FLUSHING LINE
CO-OP CITY WILL GET ACCESS WITH AN EXTENSION OF THE PELHAM LINE TO RUN VIA SECOND AVENUE
RED HOOK WILL GET SUBWAY ACCESS
THE G WILL ENTER MANHATTAN
CULVER EXPRESS
AN ADDITIONAL RUTGERS TUNNEL TO ACCOMODATE THE V
TWO ADDITIONAL TRACKS ON THE QUEENS BLVD LINE TO ACCOMODATE EXTRA SERVICE
QUEENS VILLAGE AND FRESH MEADOWS TO GET ACCESS
Gimme your thoughts and comments!!!!!!!!!!
A one seat ride to Manhattan from JFK seriously needs to be developed
WHAT IS THE A TRAIN, seems people can't sit on their a&&es for 90 min
A one seat ride to Manhattan from JFK seriously needs to be developed
WHAT IS THE A TRAIN, seems people can't sit on their a&&es for 90 min.
The A train is a subway that goes to places other than JFK and requires a transfer to a bus at Howard Beach. It is many things. But it is NOT a one-seat ride to JFK.
The "one seat ride" arguments, at this pont in time, are little more than hogwash substituting for Port Authority bashing.
What you have is basically a one seat ride. AirTrain is a terminal circulator, designed to get people in and out of gates and over to other gates, and thence to the subway or commuter rail. It works the same way in Atlanta and Newark. Atlanta's system is very heavily used; trains coming into Hartsfield are full and pours people into the airport circulator train. Philadelphia has a "one seat ride" but you still have to walk from your gate into the terminal area, and then down an elevator or escalator to your train. Reagan Airport is a "one-seat ride" because there is only one terminal, really.
So the lesson is, a small airport can be served by direct train service to one station, but at a larger airport, the circulator concept may be more appropriate. It really makes very little difference, frankly.
The whole debate about a one-seat ride, at this point, is a waste of time, really. Attention and $$$ should now be directed at the next set of priorities currently unserved, like providing rail service to LGA and East Elmhurst in some form, or the Second Avenue subway, or other subway extensions, either on the NYC or PATH systems, and finishing the extensions to the HBLR light rail system. Other priorities include renovating more old stations, providing ADA access to them, and replacing tracks and adding subway cars to the fleet so that service becomes faster and more comfortable. And, of course, the new transit mall planned for the WTC area is a high priority now.
We don't need more dollars spent on something that is already being adequately addressed. It's OK for it to show up on Subtalk but this is one issue I hope doesn't waste people's time at City Hall.
Hear, hear!
Neither can I. I would use the Atlantic Ave. LIRR from midtown Manhatten to jamaica and then the Rockaway ROW (Some seriouse clean up) down to JFK and then have it use the Airtrain ROW around JFK and back to manhaten. I guess we could use M-1s or Build some new metroliners (some blue print changes) and have 90 mph (m1) or 125 mph (metro-liner) service to JFK. A train go to ell.
Wow!!! A 5 mile tunnel to Staten Island too. In the 1950s there was a preliminary plan for that. How much would all this cost and who will foot the bill? The feds? A bond issue?
As far as a Staten Island subway connection is concerned, the city missed a golden opportunity to do so in the early 1960s during the Verrazano Bridge construction. It is approximately 6 miles from the SI Expressway / SIRT overpass to the start of the approach road to the bridge in Brooklyn at 6 Ave and 65th Street. I saw an air photo of the approach road construction in 1963. What a short distance that is from the Sea Beach cutout!! A track could have easily been placed along that approach road (center median style), connecting to the Sea Beach Line, running over the bridge and then connecting to the SIRT trackage just north of the Grasmere station. Several of the Brooklyn overpasses could have served as station points giving better access to subway service to those in the Dyker Heights/Bay Ridge Areas not close to the 4th Ave subway.
You can thank Robert Moses for that not happening. To him the automobile was the wave of the future.
>>>>You can thank Robert Moses for that not happening. To him the automobile was the wave of the future. <<<
Love that Bob. He also believed that the riffraff take subways and don't drive; therefore he was unalterably oppsed to mass transit.
Hey, I don't drive. Bob was right.
But HE didn't drive either! He was chauffered everywhere...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I never knew that until I saw the New York documentary. I think it was mentioned during the segment on the opposition to the LOMEX.
My response to Re: MY THOUGHTS ON FUTURE SUBWAY EXPANSION (LONG)
"Wow!!! A 5 mile tunnel to Staten Island too. In the 1950s there was a preliminary plan for that. How much would all this cost and who will foot the bill? The feds? A bond issue?
As far as a Staten Island subway connection is concerned, the city missed a golden opportunity to do so in the early 1960s during the Verrazano Bridge construction. It is approximately 6 miles from the SI Expressway / SIRT overpass to the start of the approach road to the bridge in Brooklyn at 6 Ave and 65th Street. I saw an air photo of the approach road construction in 1963. What a short distance that is from the Sea Beach cutout!! A track could have easily been placed along that approach road (center median style), connecting to the Sea Beach Line, running over the bridge and then connecting to the SIRT trackage just north of the Grasmere station. Several of the Brooklyn overpasses could have served as station points giving better access to subway service to those in the Dyker Heights/Bay Ridge Areas not close to the 4th Ave subway.
You can thank Robert Moses for that not happening. To him the automobile was the wave of the future."
Comments appreciated. Do you think this was feasible or wishful thinking?
Well you know, many of the people in Staten Island will be going to Manhattan instead and I believe that it should use either the (E), (J), (M) or the 2nd Ave. line in the forseeable future. I know it's feasible, but due to the debts that MTA has right now, I don't think it's possible for about another 20 years.
It wouldn't have worked at all unless the bridge was redesigned, and that wasn't a Moses issue. The South Beach cutoff was abandoned in 1953, and the connection ran the wrong way.
It's a 40 minute trip from Tottenville to St. George. The onl real tunnel that could work woould be one that goes directly from Staten Island to Manhattan; not through brooklyn, and none of those loopy ideas of sending trains down the North Shore to the NE Corridor and on to Penn Station. For that matter, the connection there is also facing the wrong direction.
-Hank
Is your reasoning because of the steep grade of the bridge? I surely think that at the time of the bridge's inception the idea of sending a train over the bridge was brought up only to be shot down by Moses. I was thinking about the possible use of the lower deck which was not opened to traffic until 1969.
As far as connection to the SIRT main line (St. George to Tottenville), the connection north of the Grasmere station could be similar to the wye on the Rockaway line.
Irregardless, 40 years later none of this has a chance of happening.
Irregardless
What kind of crappy-ass word is that?
Who are you? Why don't you contribute something meaningful to the forum.
Who the hell are you if you don't know who I am? Certainly not a regular Subtalker.
Elmo knows where you live!
No I'm not a regular. Don't have the time. Got too many things to do beside talk about subways all day. What I am looking for is an opinion about what I thought was a possiblity, and to have some fun communicating with those who have a similar interest of mine.
But to make fun of one's grammar. "Irregardless" - the double negative, the word is used though. "Ain't" - a made up word. Who cares!!!
How fast would a VZ train go?? Faster than my R142s?? Faster than me upstairs on four wheels?? CI Peter
I guess they could could safely reach 160 mph (at 3 mps[meters per second]/2[squared])for a couple of seconds if there were no liability concerns (pre-1970s).
I have read earlier on Subtalk that the grade on the Verrazzano is too steep for subway trains to handle.
Yep. Especially on the Brooklyn side...the Staten Island side is much easier since it's a shorter gap between "street level" and the actual bridge (not including approach roadway.) On the Brooklyn side, you've got a very long approach roadway...yes...one reason being that the merge to the Belt Parkway exists just after the "bridge" ends.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Maybe Bloomie, Trump, Perlman and Steingrabber will pay for all that with a few extra billion!
www.forgotten-ny.com
First: you said -- "Run the G permanently from Forest Hills-71st to 2nd Av-LES via Rutgers and the Bklyn-Qns Crosstown line. This brings the G to Manhattan."
Uh, does that mean you're running two separate G's? Some running into Manhattan, some running their current route? If not, what are your plans for all the current G stations bypassed by your proposed routing?
As long as we'd like to have our pie in the sky and eat it too....
I'd love to see the L extended to the unused 9th Ave. Lower Level, connecting with the 2/5 at their terminus, the Q at Ave H (or Newkirk, but Ave H seems easier) the F at 18th Ave, and then on to 9th Ave.
Connecting the Franklin Ave. Shuttle to the G would be nice, too. Then, one could get from the outer reaches of Queens to Coney Island without having to either go through Manhattan or make a myriad of changes.
Carrion, er...I mean, carry on.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
There would not be two separate G trains. The only current G stations that would not be served with the changes would be Bergen, Carroll, and Smith-9th. The G would follow its current route, but after Hoyt-Schermerhorn, it would meet up with the F and follow it to 2nd avenue-LES through the Rutgers Tunnel. Bergen, Carroll, and Smith-9th would be served by the F, so the G might not be necessary.
You should do a re-con of the location - there is no way that the G can follow your proposed routing. Sorry to bust your bubble. The tunnels as configured at present would not allow for this, and re-constructing them to your alignment would be prohibitively expensive. Look at the Subway.org link to the IND Second system, which willgive you some ideas on what was proposed, but never built.
About your 2nd Av. subway possible extension to Staten Island, is this your alternative to using the (E) or (J)/(M) to extend to Staten Island?
The E is a crowded line as it is, and the J/M doesnt really wanna go where people from Staten Island wanna go. If you live in
Staten Island, and come to Manhattan by train, chances are you dont wanna go to Jamaica or Brooklyn, and that your destination is somewhere in Manhattan. The Second Avenue line could serve this better, since it will go where people wanna go. And with long routes like my proposed 8 Pelham Express-CoOp City going to Tottenville, there are plenty of places along the way for people to get out. It wont be one of those lines that has a lot of people riding it end-to-end, so i think congestion could be kept to a minimum.
I think you should create a new board called: "Fantasy SubTalk", because your ideas will never occur! Look how long we have been promised the Second Ave. subway! Since the Third Ave. el was taken down, that's how long! And I'm still not convinced it is going to be built. As far as I know to $$$ to build it has not been appropriated, only $$$ for another feasibility study. Do you have any ideas as to how much money your ideas will cost?
>> I think you should create a new board called: "Fantasy SubTalk", because your ideas will never occur! <<
Maybe not all of them. But even Robert Moses didn't get *everything* he wanted. So let's start thinking about how to fund all these ideas.
He got 90%. next time don't demolish houses in manhatten (I-78 X Manhatten Expressway).
The 2nd ave line is IND specs,so most of your plans are moot.
i know
Many of you may think I am crazy, but for me the "modern" subway of today is simply not enjoyable for me (with the exception of the graffiti which I thought was horrible) when compared to the times I rode the trains in the 60s and 70s. Let me give you several examples.
1. Those non-florescent lighted stations in the IND subway waiting for those R1-9s.
2. The motors of the R1-9s revving when leaving a station.
3. No air-conditioning, just ceiling fans.
4. The noises the trains made moving through the tunnels without some of the sound proofing of today's trains. The windows and end doors where continuously open during the summer and the sound effects were amplified. How many remember riding an express (2,3) on the IRT 7th Ave. Line and having to contend with deafness?
5. The screetch of the brakes (steel on steel) when a train came into the station.
6. Tokens, and the click of that wooden turnstile.
7. Riding under an el and peering up at the wooden walkway. Today the walkway has changed to some yellow material.
8. No public address system. You were not a customer, but a passenger.
9. Roll signs and marker lights.
10. Free passage and riding between cars ( I know it is dangerous )
11. Double letters for local trains.
There are probably other things that I may have forgotten, but I knew times were changing when I saw the first slant R-40s. When the R-44/46s came on the scene it was all downhill for me. Granted I am not that old and change is inevitable, but first impressions do count. That's why I will shell out $25 to ride a nostalgia train when I get a chance. I saw a 60 year old man go absolutely nuts while on one of these trips. He practically had tears in his eyes shouting to everone in earshot, "I can't believe it!! My childhood has returned!!!"
dont forget a all RAILFAN WINDOW equipped fleet ...!!!!!!!!!
lol.......!!!
>> change is inevitable <<
...except from a vending machine
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Well then go to the Branford Trolley Museum on the Spring in NY weekend and the Autumn in NY Weekend and you can get to ride an R-9 and a Low-V. Join as a member and you may get to drive one.
Thanks for the plug Sarge. It was such a nice Saturday, that three of us got dirty that day (working on PCC #27 from Newark) & had a little fun too (we are also operators so taking a car done the line, with permission, is OK).
In March they'll have another class to teach you the proper way to go Ding Ding. Six have signed up so far, still room for more.
Mr rt__:^)
Six have signed up so far...
Including me...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mouse good for you ! 629 going to get a real work out if you have anything to say about it ? Please lay off the horn near the NIMBYs.
Note to Lou from Brooklyn, don't show him where the whistle is on 775.
Mr rt__:^)
UH-OH, we're in real trouble now. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
You mean Shoreline managed to acquire a Newark PCC?
They sure did but it was via another city. I'll let Thurston explain further.
Peace,
ANDEE
#27 was at Newark until 1977 (she came there from Twin Cities with a bunch of others when that city repalced all their PCCs with buses).
So in 1977 #27 & #3 went to Shaker Heights to operate on the RTA until 1982. There they stayed until the early 1990s when the Minnesota Transportation Museum at Twin Cities acquired them both. They restored #3 & held 27 for a second restore. Recently they decided not to restore #27.
Meanwhile the remaing PCCs at Newark had their last run, in August, BUT NJ Transit officials said they were going to hold onto all of them. So we persued the posibility of acquiring 27 from Minn. A deal was struck that made both parties happy and now 27 is at Branford.
We now have the first PCC delivered that went into service, #1001 and a example of the end of the production line.
I've been a small part this past two week-ends of a group who is trying to get 27 ready for Member's Day at the museum. She is complete, but needs a bit of work here and there, e.g. some of the bottoms of the seat frames rotted, a lot of rust & scale, some body parts need repair or replacements, the M-G came out to be serviced.
Our Curator has his fingers crossed that the efforts currently under way will be completed in time.
She's your typical single ended PCC, but has a Controller in the rear, so with a two man crew she may be able to come out frequently (you need two folks to get the trolley pole under the car to go backwards ... one with a long pole & one with the trolley rope on the other side of the car) For this guy who's first trolley ride was in a PCC on the Green Line in Boston, I think this would be real nice.
Mr rt__:^)
So Shoreline wound up with #27 in a round-robin fashion, as it were. Too cool! One more reason to try to make it back there someday.
One more question: what paint scheme is 27 currently wearing? I would imagine something from Shaker Heights. Will it eventually be redone in Newark colors?
Yes, she was left in Shaker Heights colors.
What colors will she ware ... don't know first hand, but with her leaving in '77 and being mechanically & structurally before the mods at Newark (80s) she could be grey -OR- Red, White & Blue, I would vote for the latter ... would look real nice !
If I get my wish, please bring your sun glasses when you stop by :-)
Mr rt__:^)
My glasses darken all by themselves in sunlight.:-)
Do they really let you drive an R-9? Cool.
That's something I wouldn't mind trying someday, although I got an even bigger kick working the trigger boxes.
Ain't nothing as much of a thrill than charging up a beastie, giving her two notches, and then trying to pull a full service without hitting the fourth "detent" to put her in the hole. :)
R9's are an acquired taste ... and each had her own "feel" ... that's why you'd DO a "standing motor test" before winding her up with geese ... highly recommended though under supervision. Lemme put it to ya this way ... let's say I got invited to Branford for some 1689 ... FIRST thing I'd do is feel out the FS application and where a particular check valve wanted to put you in the hole ... they VARIED ... TREMENDOUSLY ... some would CHOW at 7 o'clock, some at 8 ... others would let you crank past 6 before dropping the pipe ... had to know because that's what you needed to PULL sometimes. Heh. And HEAVEN help you if you dumped on the bridge ... moo.
That's when you hoped the handbrake worked.:-)
There's something else I remember on the Canarsie line which I'm not sure if they still do today. On a Manhattan-bound train of BMT standards, the motorman would apply power when leaving Bedford Ave. and entering the 14th St. tunnel, then after a few seconds, he'd cut power momentarily and then reapply. There would be a spark from the side of the train when all of this was going on. Was there a gap of some sort?
Dunno ... probably an entrance timer that was a bit slow. But I didn't do that line all that much and never notcied that trick.
There is a gap (I'm not sure what the excat term is) at Shoreline, right about where the old stone crusher was, at which point any car going through has to cut power and coast. I wonder if that's the same scenario on the Canarsie line.
There is a gap (I'm not sure what the excat term is) at Shoreline...
Section insulator. Once the Flushing line becomes stainless, it'll be the last place to have a "third rail gap" experience :(.
Thanks.
Sometimes the elect. brakes are cranky, so you have to listen closely to hear them click in.
Mr rt__:^)
Sounds like some cam-wiping is in order in the brake stand then. In actual service, those were rarely troublesome as long as the lead car had seen some use every now and then. What's particularly strange is that my memories of school car was that on a single car move, they'd tell you not to even bother "plugging the hole" as it didn't make any difference ... but don't try to move 6 cars or more without it. Go figger. I always thought for a single car, the old butt plug didn't matter.
We always "plug the hole" even though 1689 is a single ... never know when it might become part of a 3 car train ... am glad I was there to ride in them.
Mr rt__:^)
You betcha! And yes, already did the mental exercises and found enough cars to make a ten car consist across a few museums' worth of stock. 10 cars, no waiting ... 'cept for the compressors to express a bit of pumpitude. :)
There are enough surviving R-1/9s to make up a nice train. The $64,000 question is how many are currently operable.
There's a very good question.
1689 of course works just fine at Branford, and the "A Train" at Seashore (R-4 & R-7a) is kept in shape by a guy named Pollman < G >.
So does anyone know the condition of the museum fleet ... are they just "stuffed & mounted" or are they capable of operating with a little TLC ?
BTW, I've been lead to believe that the 3rd set of D Types at the museum COULD operate. In fact, apparently there was some talk of bringing them out last year when the fan trips were selling out.
This year rumor has it that there will be some more D Type trips & at least one more fairwell to Red Bird trip.
Mr rt__:^)
That's three ... dunno about the transit museum ... Kingston museum, dunno and there's a few others about. If the FUNDING were there, I'm sure it could be done with two years and change to go if there was a will to do it. I wouldn't mind a gallop again ... hell, I still remember how to pull down ten cars the easy way. Heh.
I understand 1802 is operable.
Two years is certainly enough lead time to rewind some motors, replace some frayed wire, polish up some EB cams, grind the electric portion ends and apply some goose grease to some trucks. I'm sure some museums would be willing to allow some to travel to the city if they get a full GOH treatment in exchange for the loan. :)
They sure do !
Member's day you sign up for the car you want to drive. Most who come want to get handle time on the trolleys, but some to the big stuff comes out too. Of course you have to already be a member. They put on a picnic lunch & one year we had a group show up with their tin lizzys which looked real fine next to the trolleys.
Then at "Autumn in NY", to get you RT fans off the fence & join the museum, you can get your first lesson in the cab of one of our 1/2 dozen operating rt cars. As a trolley operator I've had that privilage more then once.
Mr rt__:^)
I too miss these things. As a teenager growing up in the `70s, riding the rails kept me out of trouble. And with one uncle and a cousin as motorman (T/O`s now ) and another uncle as a Station Master at Jay St. I had a healthy respect for the system. But as others are so eager to point out on this site, " The MTA`S goal is to move masses of people" Not to appease the railfan. However I can`t wait to come back to NYC to try out my new scanner in the system.
I spent my whole summer between 3rd and 4th grade (1967) on the subway system except the parts I was not allowed to ride eg. north of 59th street in Manhattan and east of Franklin Ave. in Brooklyn.
I never paid the 20 cents fare and became good at getting the free ride. I had some great subway cars to ride and all summer long to do it.
It was the best time I had until I discovered females.
I even got to relive it in college on the Broad Street line riding trains built in 1928 and two other models which were pre war. I got on for free by finding a discarded transfer on the ground in a station or nearby in Center City.
You weren't allowed to ride north of 59th St? That was the best part - a CPW dash on a wailing, howling D train of oldtimers or an A train of teal-and-white R-10s with a racing stripe.
I remember that summer all too well. We had just moved to Jersey from Indiana and I was rapidly becoming immersed in the subway even thought we went into the city only a few times. That fall, I became a Saturday commuter and the rest is history. I was hooked. It was on September 23 that I became an A fan for life.
Next stop north was 125th street. If you remember, in 1968 it was the scene of riots along with Newark, NJ. I don't think white people were very welcome north of Central Park.
IIRC New York had a relatively calm summer in 1967. There was a heightened alert after Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated in 1968. On the following Saturday, our Canarsie train crept between Bedford Ave. and Lorimer St., so much so I could see the I-beams in the crash wall between the tracks.
My mother and I took a D train to the Bronx on July 1, 1968 (a brutally hot day) and had no problems. Those R-32s made the CPW dash look easy.
I was 9 years old, and my mother did not want me near Harlem by myself in the subway or on the outside.
Peppertree comments above - "I don't think white people were very welcome north of Central Park."
Well - I recall a hot night during the riots. I was in the city visiting my aunt where I had an argument with my parents. I stormed out of the apartment on 91 & Lex and without thinking what I was doing - hoofed uptown - a really stupid move.
Eventually, I made it up to the vicinity of about 116 & Lex where a group of young Black guys stopped me (pretty easy as I was the only white guy around) and asked what I was doing up there with riots, fires and all kinds of destruction going on. I was so fixated on my anger at my parents that I had failed to take in the fact that I was walking in to a war zone. So I just blurted out that I had a fight with my Mom and took a walk to get away from her.
These guys thought this was very funny and told me not to fight with Mom and then escorted me for my own safety back to around 97th street - all along the way coaching me on how to deal with difficult Moms.
Sorry for the off topic stretch here - -
You're lucky they didn't beat you to a bloody pulp!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
That is why mom would not let me take that CPW express ride in 1968.
I had to settle for a ride on the Lex. Express which was nice if I had a model with an open front window.
Ah, yes, the Lexington Ave. express. I rode on it for the first time on August 9, 1967 to the Bronx Zoo. It was a 5 train and man, did it move! 103rd St. went by in a blur. This was before I started standing at the railfan window, I sat at the northern end of one of the cars in the middle of the train, and the storm door was open. The car was probably an R-17, as its side doors didn't have interior rubber moldings around the windows. The R-21s and R-22s didn't have interior moldings around the door windows, either.
That 2 train we took back to Port Authority was no slouch, either. It rocketed down Broadway.
What about the local? What about the IRT? Why weren't you allowed above 59 on them?
I have to admit the system was a lot more fun back when I first started riding it alone (1985). I loved the blue stripe and the real differences between cars, asthetically as well as operationally. It may be antiseptic and dull today, but I don't miss the grafitti, track fires, derailments, muggings, broken doors and other assorted perils of subway ridership at this time.
13. The "fog" at the IND 34th St/ 6th Ave station when the R1-9s ruled.
14. Vending machines
15. Hearing the whining sounds of the pre-war cars in your neighborhood blocks away on a quiet night.
16. Sitting on cushioned seats be it rattan or vinyl.
17. Riding R1-9s before sealed beam headlights and coming across a track crew working ahead and see just the lantern signaling to the motorman to proceed.
18. Motorman instead of train operators also wearing railroad type coveralls.
19. Those original IND signals with the back lit illuminated numbers.
20. Wooden "el" platforms.
21. Orange and blue trash cans
22. Subway Suns with "Oppy" illustrations.
23. A short West End train at Stillwell (BMT Standards) moving up to a couple of cars and an "add" made in the station.
24. BMT Standards, D-Types, Low-Vs, Q-Types etc.
25. Those neat old porcelain signs.
26. "Token booths" made of wood with bars on the window.
27. On a bright sunny day after a snowfall seeing steel dust black pre-war cars on the outside lines contrasted against the clean white snow.
28. Tokens the size of a dime.
That's enough now, I'm getting too nostalgic.
Bill "Newkirk"
Take me NOW, superman! I wanna have yer baby! Heh.
You left one out ... going BLIND in the sun when you left a subway exit ... I'm sorry, but the old pre-crimewave IND lighting was also very nice on the eyes ... let you see things out the cab window that you'd NEVER see if it was lit like today.
And of course the nifty SILENCE when a train stopped ... unless the compressors were running which, once upon a time, was a notable event in the days when pipe didn't leak. :)
16. Sitting on cushioned seats be it rattan or vinyl.
The cane seats fought back often stabbing its occupant. The vinyl seats clung to the body in hot weather trying to smother the occupant.
26. "Token booths" made of wood with bars on the window.
There were "change booths" before "token booths".
28. Tokens the size of a dime.
How about dimes and no tokens. Better yet, I do remember nickels - an Indian on the head and a buffalo on the back.
You are older than I. But more power to you.
>>26. "Token booths" made of wood with bars on the window. <<
One still exists to this day. On the 4 / 5 at the Wall Street station (downtown platform). It was left in place when they did the "refurbishing" a long time ago (also because there was not enough room to put in a regular size modular booth)
29.Miss Subways
30. wood burning pot bellied stoves [hope no one got that already].
30. wood burning pot bellied stoves
I thought that they were coal burning.
How about restrooms at every station (although many of them were pay toilets - hey buddy can you spare a dime?)
-- Ed Sachs
31. Going directly from the South Ferry station to the upper deck entrance to the Staten Island Ferry without having to go down to the street.
Tom
That reminds me of Reingold Beer.
One of the original sponsors of the Mets - Rheingold.
They paid for the new scoreboard at the Polo Grounds for 1962.
The Mets spent roughly $300,000 to restore the Polo Grounds to playable condition. Most of it was cosmetic: a fresh paint job, resodding the field, the scoreboard you mentioned, and a restaurant for season ticket holders. At Shea Stadium, they have the Diamond Club.
At the time, it was hoped that Shea would be ready in time for the 1963 season, but it didn't turn out that way.
$300,000 in 1962 would easily buy what a million buys now.
According to the Federal Reserve, $300,000.00 in 1962 is the equivalent of $1,793,046.36 today.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah Caramba!!!!!
Interestingly enough, the Consumer Price Index is always referenced to 1967 dollars.
How about on a hot summer day with the front window, all pull down (not Euro styly flap) side windows, the back window and the box vents open with fans spinning and a neat, neat, breeze blowing from one end of the train to the other and then out the back window of the six car train? (And all the women wore skirts or dresses and men didn't).
Seats of rattan/wicker and reverse thread screw in light bulbs. Who ever thought of reverse thread light bulbs anyway?
Straps made of porcelain. (I am too young to remember leather.)
Marker lights instead of route signs.
The train lights out when switching or changing third rails.
The sound of the compressor motor while the train is idle.
sigh ...
whaddaya doin to me -
YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!
I am too young to have experienced any of this great stuff and I am nostalgic for a time period I never lived in!
I've said it before and I'll say it again --
why, WHY couldn't my parents meet 20 years before they did???
But at least I was still able to get a window into the past by riding the redbirds, particularly on the #7 line and the single, un-air conditioned cars at that.
Which, btw, likely won't be around for this summer. I think 2001 was the last summer of the R33S.
Aeternum Vale.
I'll never experience a mild summer evening after dark on an unairconditioned redbird-style subway train on an el line with all the doors and windows open with that fresh breeze blowing thru ... the kind that reminds one of an upcoming summer season and fun and hanging out and girls and movies and going out for ice cream and all sorts of cool stuff.
I got to see it, but not enough.
When I did get a second chance in Phila. until 1982 on the Broad Street Line I took it for all that it was worth. Those trains had everything but the fans, which were removed some time ago.
Don't feel bad. Sometimes I wish my folks hadn't waited 10 years before having me.:-)
I can remember:
The 20-cent fare and dime-size tokens.
BMT standards on the Canarsie. Riding on them was cruel and unusual punishment to me; I didn't like them at all.
Shiny new R-32s with blue doors and green backlit side destination signs streaking effortlessly along Broadway.
R-10s with the racing stripe scheme thundering along CPW in an awesome display of sheer brute speed.
Straight door pockets and numbered route markings on the R-16s. What's a 15?
Moaning, groaning, and grunting R-1/9s with backlit side signs. Conductors assuming the position on them as well as on the R-10s.
The underpass at 42nd St. and how it gave me the willies once when I had to use it. The escalator to the lower level from the 42nd St. mezzanine.
The R-36s in their original paint scheme on the 7.
Catching a glimpse of a train of Q cars on the Myrtle Ave. el.
Incandescent lighting on many IND station platforms.
HOw about:
Low-Vs on the Lex (I'm not that old, but I did ride them once from Franklin to Utica, must have been the very last ca. 1957 or 58)
Church avenue still had the single wire above, even though the tracks were gone.
Standards everywhere
Triplex too.
The map at my station still had the bmt els on it even though they were long gone.
The R27 was new. Then the WF cars. Then the R32...
The Brighton was all R27/30/32 and then Chrystie st opened and the 'old' R1 came with it. Everyone I knew complained.
Then graffiti...
How about:
The "Know Trains at at Glance" placards prominently displayed on Southern Division stations in the 60s as the letter code was being implemented on the BMT. Shoreline has one of those today.
Yes, after the R32s started showing up. They didn't identify the brooklyn branch on the signs, just Q Broadway Express.
Very true. I wasn't sure when those placards first went up; I first saw one in July of 1967. Since the R-27/30s still had the old Southern Division titles on their route signs along with "Broadway", the TA must have figured that alone would suffice initially. OTOH you would have thought the riding public would have gotten used to the new letter markings by the time the R-32s arrived.
What type of train was this roll sign from?
BMT rollsign with numbers AND letters on it
It says 1930's but looks like from a R-27/30.
No way from the 30's. The JJ, QJ, etc. entries are definitely mid-60's or later.
I agree. JJ, QJ, etc. are definitely post-unification.
Stuart, RLine86Man
My guess is it's an original R-16 sign, with the lettered routes spliced in. Those signs were replaced on the R-16s in the late 1960s with color route signs. I believe the R-27s came in with letter signs, no numbers, and were the first to do so.
David
Absolutely correct. It is an original R-16 roller curtain with additional letter routes spliced on.
I didn't arrive in NYC until the 60s so I also missed a number of the items listed here, e.g. my first ride on a D Type was last year, but at least now I know what I missed.
(I did experience the Standards, R1/9s, Q Types (once) & those Red Birds when they were that lovely light blue & white.)
Mr rt__:^)
>>> e.g. my first ride on a D Type was last year, but at least now I know what I missed. <<<
YOU are quite welcome...
Peace,
ANDEE
It must have been something to have been able to ride the IND Worlds Fair Line in 1939. Only the second portion of the IND out of doors, probably a smooth roadbed, standing at the window of the front car, maybe a new R9, and viewing the lower level's yard lead tracks, the yard, and then north through a quieter Queens, with the Trylon and Perisphere looming up ahead. And at night going home, steps from any of the dance halls in the Fair's Amusement area, which stayed open later than the area north of Horace Harding, there would be also sorts of tired couples and groups, who'd been out partying all evening, the air would be warm or hot, fans would be going and there'd be hyperactive kids with their parents, who'd been at the Fair past their bedtime, swinging around the central poles.
Andree, snuck a few of his friends on a special D Type trip. The best thing about it was that the "official" guests weren't railfans, so there was only a couple of us at the front window.
We gathered early, made a point of saying hellow to the other Museum employees/volunteers that we knew, offered to help with the tour & didn't bother the "guests" with any sort of foaming. It was a great trip. At one point the group of us pritty much had the last car to ourselves ... railfan heaven !
Mr rt__:^)
The ice-cream vending machine at Union Turnpike station in Queens (my home station growing up).
Does anyone remember the barber shop on the mezzanine at 179th Street or the Nedick's stand on the mezzanine at Roosevelt Avenue?
Nedick's ... had many a breakfest & late supper at the one in Penn Station on my way to/from work.
Mr rt__:^)
My personal list:
1. differing sounds from different car types (whistling R46's, steam escaping R16's, Darth Vader like R40/42's
2. hot dog stands/lunchonettes in stations, in which I could get real food without exiting the system. My two favorites were at Delanct St on the uptown F and the large one at Times Sq.
3. The smell of roasting cashews at Herald Sq.
4. radically different service during the rush hours on many lines.
5. backlit roll signs on the cars from the R38 and back
6. unrehabbed abandoned areas and equipment. The old multicolored sign box at 36th St on the southbound with Sea Beach, West End, Culver, Bay Ridge was my favorite, as were the remnants of the Culver shuttle which was still around in the mid 1980's. With no access to a site like this, these clues were all I had to figure out what the system used to be like. Today, everything has been fixed and anything old has been obliterated.
1. The R27 doors had such a distinct sound opening and closing. I can still remember that sound.
The first time I noticed it, I was probably three years old and sitting in my mother's lap just after getting on the QT at Sheepshead Bay. Should be around 1962 or 1963 in a new R27. I still remember.
I used to think I was the only nostalgia nut on his site, but the posts on this subject the past few days have convinced me otherwise. Well since we are on the subject, let me add that the real great old days of the subway was when the Triplex cars were in operation. What a piece of equipment, powerful and dignified, it put the low V's, Standards and the rest of the R series to shame. You should have felt the power of the train as it rumbled over the Manny B, and then slammed down 4th Avenue on its way to Coney Island. Believe me, there was nothing like it. And the beauty of it was that was the only car on the Sea Beach line. What a rush and what a car and what a line my Sea Beach was then.
I used to love the sound of doors opening and closing on the R-1/9s and R-10s. In fact, I use sound bits of R-10 doors for opening and closing Windows programs. Thinking back, the doors on the single unit IRT cars (R-12 thru R-22) sounded very similar to the doors on the R-10s, minus the air sounds.
The doors on the BMT standards were fairly quiet, unless one door leaf wasn't adjusted properly, in which case it would whip open and slam shut.
My personal list:
1. differing sounds from different car types (whistling R46's, steam escaping R16's, Darth Vader like R40/42's)
2. hot dog stands/lunchonettes in stations, in which I could get real food without exiting the system. My two favorites were at Delancy St on the uptown F and the large one at Times Sq.
3. The smell of roasting cashews at Herald Sq.
4. radically different service during the rush hours on many lines.
5. backlit roll signs on the cars from the R38 and back
6. unrehabbed abandoned areas and equipment. The old multicolored sign box at 36th St on the southbound with Sea Beach, West End, Culver, Bay Ridge was my favorite, as were the remnants of the Culver shuttle which was still around in the mid 1980's. With no access to a site like this, these clues were all I had to figure out what the system used to be like. Today, everything has been fixed and anything old has been obliterated.
3. No air-conditioning, just ceiling fans.
Working air-conditioning is one of the vast improvements in subway riding. It's a shame the TA stonewalled its introduction for more than 10 years.
9. Roll signs and marker lights.
No roll signs on the IRT.
Feh ... one thing I've learned upstate is that Air Conditioning and transitioning between cool and dry and hot and moist tended to create the "Summer cold is an ugly animal" syndrome. When I got away from air conditioning and "recirculated air" I stopped getting sick. Hmmm.
Feh ... one thing I've learned upstate is that Air Conditioning and transitioning between cool and dry and hot and moist tended to create the "Summer cold is an ugly animal" syndrome. When I got away from air conditioning and "recirculated air" I stopped getting sick.
I believe the propoganda that colds are caused by viruses and other organisms, not by temperature changes, night air, etc. To the extent that air-conditioning systems recirculate the same air in a crowded environment, they may increase the probability of coming in contact with your neighbors' "germs".
If your getting away from air conditioning involves one's retreat to the manure fields outside major cities, then this not a fair comparison. A better one would be packed R33S and an R36 even up.
Heh. "Fresh Country scent" is usually applied in August in all sincerity ... but ENCLOSED spaces with recycled air and "tight houses" are the more serious air pollution issues (especially biological) than being out in Canadian breezes ... even the tobacco lung cancer issues always had much higher numbers in urban areas than out in the country.
But in all seriousness ... when I worked in "modern office buildings" I always tended to catch cold. Since I'm now out in the sticks, working out of my house, ain't had a cold in 5 years and ain't had a "stomach flu" in 4 ... in the summer, no air conditioning here, just the breezes summer brings outside of that natty 11am to 2pm zone where no air moves.
May not be "fair dinkum" but it does work for me ... sorry ...
>>>>I always tended to catch cold. Since
I'm now out in the sticks, working out of my house, ain't had a cold in 5 years and ain't had a "stomach
flu" in 4 ... in the summer, no air conditioning here, just the breezes summer brings outside of that natty
11am to 2pm zone where no air moves. <<<
Working in close proximity with other infected people, no matter how large the room or space may be, will no doubt spread illness. I've had two colds since December, which is unusual for even me.
www.forgotten-ny,com
Yep ... that's why we have armed guards. Heh.
www.forgotten-ny,com
And yes, it *IS* recommended by Selkirk ... if only I could get a date with LINDA! Yum, slurp! :)
(sorry, guy, but growing up in Da Bronx, she's a REAL yummy!)
Great website. I have Bookmarked it. I just knew you were good for something. And I can get a date with Linda any time I want to. My Linda and I have been married for 31 and a half years.
Heh. Ain't touching that one. :)
Working air-conditioning is one of the vast improvements in subway riding. It's a shame the TA stonewalled its introduction for more than 10 years.
It's a wonderful sensation to step into a nice frosty R-32 after having waited on a steaming August platform!
Those platforms are steamy because of the air conditioning in the trains.
Those platforms are steamy because of the air conditioning in the trains.
Oh, horsepucky! You might get away with saying, "The platforms are marginally steamier because of the A/C ..." but that's ridiculous. In a hot summer, the subway platforms have ALWAYS been hot. It takes several weeks to heat 'em up once the heat arrives and a like amount of time to cool 'em down. Always been that way, always will.
The platforms are steamier because of air-conditioning and because of dynamic braking. Dynamic braking came first and has been around long enough that many railfans would not remember (relatively) cool underground platforms in the summer. Under dynamic braking, the motors reverse fields and become generators to slow the train to around 10 mph, whereupon the air brakes take over for the final stop; it works pretty well but throws off energy, which is dissipated through resistor grids as heat. The subway cars coming in now use regenerative braking, which (if conditions are right) returns much of this energy to the third rail for use by other trains.
David
The platforms are steamier because of air-conditioning and because of dynamic braking. Dynamic braking came first and has been around long enough that many railfans would not remember (relatively) cool underground platforms in the summer.
I'm old enough to remember when the pre-WWII fleet ruled everywhere except on the A train and the Flushing Line. The platforms were just as hot and uncomfortable in summer then as they are now.
Under dynamic braking, the motors reverse fields and become generators to slow the train to around 10 mph, whereupon the air brakes take over for the final stop; it works pretty well but throws off energy, which is dissipated through resistor grids as heat.
This assertion violates the first and second laws of thermodynamics.
The first law. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. Brakes convert kinetic energy into another form of energy. Pure friction brakes (as used on almost all pre-WWII cars) convert kinetic energy into heat. This heat is generated at the point of contact - brake shoes and wheels. Dynamic brakes convert kinetic energy into electrical energy, which is then converted into heat thanks to the resistive grid. The total amount of kinetic energy converted into heat is exactly the same, given the two trains have the same mass and initial speed and move along the same track.
The second law. Heat travels from a hotter object to a cooler one. When the wheels or resistor grid becomes hotter than their surroundings, heat will flow from the wheels or the resistor grid to the surrounding air. The temperature of the air will rise and the temperature of the wheels or resistor grid will decrease until both are at the same temperature. The old friction brakes were not the cause of "(relatively) cool undergournd platforms in the summer."
The result is that the stations become just as hot due to braking, whether dynamic or pure friction braking is used. Raising the issue of dynamic braking is simply a red herring.
The subway cars coming in now use regenerative braking, which (if conditions are right) returns much of this energy to the third rail for use by other trains.
There are several more reliable ways to stop a train by converting some of a train's kinetic energy into a form of energy other than heat. The IRT converted kinetic energy into potential energy in the design of the first subway. This technique has not been followed in later designs.
Another way of converting kinetic energy into potential energy is to use a flywheell/generator. Such systems are used in Switzerland. This design has the advantage of being self-contained. It does not rely on the TA's so far unsuccessful attempt to dump the electrical energy directly into the power grid.
Thanks for elaborating. I know that energy is neither created nor destroyed but couldn't figure out how to explain dynamic braking simply enough for the layman to understand it. This seems to be a good explanation (although I am somewhat suspicious of Mr. Bauman's assertion that dynamic braking does not raise station temperatures, as it flies in the face of everything I've ever heard on the subject).
As for flywheels, NYC Transit tried that on some R-32s in the mid-1970s. Unfortunately, I don't know the results of that test, only that the method was not carried over into subsequent new cars.
David
I am somewhat suspicious of Mr. Bauman's assertion that dynamic braking does not raise station temperatures...
Please re-read my post - in particular:
"the stations become just as hot due to braking, whether dynamic or pure friction braking is used."
As for flywheels, NYC Transit tried that on some R-32s in the mid-1970s.
I'm not familiar with that test. There have been significant improvements in the field of rotating objects at very high speeds since the 70's. (My guess would be tha the TA used 1940's technology in the 1970's.) Some of the technology used in designing disk drives has been applied to storing electrical energy as rotating mechanical energy. The flywheel concept is worth a second look.
The R-11s had flywheels, IIRC.
I've never heard that the R-11s had flywheels. Can anyone confirm this? The only cars I know about are a pair of R-32s (3700-3701, I think) that got them circa 1976 for a test. The only thing I heard about the results was that it would have been very expensive to retrofit the fleet -- I never heard whether the test was successful.
David
I think he's confusing flywheels with disc brakes, used on the R11 but removed after they were rehabbed in 1965.
>>> It takes several weeks to heat 'em up once the heat arrives and a like amount of time to cool 'em down. <<<
Unlike Southern California where temperatures may stay above 90º night and day for over a week, New York usually cools down overnight, so there was not a lasting heat buildup in subway stations from the start of summer. Even in July each day in the morning the subway would seem cooler than the surface, and each evening warmer. I suspect a noticeable amount of increased heat on subway platforms comes from higher ambient temperatures in the tunnels which is a result of air conditioning on the trains which operates as a heat pump automatically whenever the interior temperature of the subway car exceeds 72º.
Tom
Not true. The air in some of these stations is stiflng in the summer. That was not the case before air-conditioned cars. Where does all that circulated air go?
One day in July 1987, I was almost floored to step onto a pre GOH R42 J train at Forest Pkway to find it was a veritable rolling freezer. At this time, working AC on an old R42 was almost unheard of.
Needless to say, 99% of the entire trains passangers were in this one car.
>>>1. Those non-florescent lighted stations in the IND subway waiting for those R1-9s. <<<
And those incandescent-lit stations hung tough until the late 1980s! But they were relaced with flo bulbs too soon for...
er, um, www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>8. No public address system. You were not a customer, but a passenger. <<<
We are more revenue producing units than customers, actually.
>>>9. Roll signs and marker lights. <<<
Even the route bullets in front of the trains are on the way out, if the R142 and 143 designs are any indication...
>>>>3. No air-conditioning, just ceiling fans. <<<
I don't miss non-air-conditioned cars; therefore I won't miss the redbirds, though I'm far from in love with the cramped R142's.
Come to think of it I do remember the Ft.Hamilton Pkwy station on the F train in 1987 with incandescent lights. Seemed kind of strange being I hardly took that route then.
I remember punks throwing rocks they brought from the outside at the bulbs at Church Ave one day. They managed to take most of the bulbs out by the time my F train left the station.
The last 2 underground stations with incandescent bulb-lit platforms were Church Ave & Ft. Hamilton Pkway, which were converted in Autumn 1987.
Almost all of the Redbirds are air conditioned. Except on the 7, the air conditioning works fine, by and large. Sure, occasionally it doesn't, but that goes for the R-142's as well.
@ yea & the riders were TOUGH back then..!!!
& not a bunch of CRYBABIES like many of U now ...
with your AC cars ........weak !!!!
What about the tough Irish-American subway workers throughout the system from track workers to the token booth and the subway crew?
Many of these excellent workers quit after the 1966 subway strike when a contract made retirement too good to pass up.
Can anyone elaborate on this subject?
I was a beneficiary of the tail end of the great exodus ... not three months after going on the road as a conductor, was in school car. Most of those folks were gone by January 1971 and a raft of rookies took over the broken equipment. If my timing's right, we're in the midst of those who came in when I did hanging up their handles too ...
Do you remember seeing any of the "pushers" at busy midtown stations, pushing passengers into packed stations?
Did they use them until the 1950's or 1960's?
It was before my time ... probably did away with them (my bet) in 1948 when the Board of Transportation talked to an attorney or two and figured they could get sued ... "public property" has slightly different rules than "private property" so I'd guess it was somewhere around then when the practice of car-stuffing ended. I can tell you that in the 50's and 60's there were no fish cannery workers on platforms. :)
Thanks for the info. I did see a piece on them in the NY Times Sunday magazine around 1965 or 1966.
I vaguely recall seeing it too ... and I know from stories from old timers on the railroad that it was done routinely ... sure kept the trains running on time having "shovellers" to pack 'em in and yank 'em away from the closing doors. But then again, that was way before "polite customer announcement technology." :)
Don't forget the penny gum machines on the Bklyn IRT stations!
I think the penny gum machines were throughout the system, particularly if you're talking about the penny Chiclets. They came two to their own little box. A selection lever slide left and right between slots representing the flavors. Pressing down released the gum.
I think that the vending machines were only in Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn stations and maybe Queen Plaza IND station.
I remember them at Church Av (IND).
The Eastern Parkway, Broadway Junction, East New York complex had many gum, peanut and chocolate vending machines on the various platforms.
I seem to recall some at Franklin Ave on the IRT in the late 60s.
Standing in a train that had all the doors between cars open and watching as the train went through a curve.
Alan Glick
seeing the first non light bulb interior lit train ...
almost looked like a blacklight..
the side signs were brightly lit too remember ??
The end doors with windows that open.
Those particular brakes that made a unique screech on IRT cars R12 to R29? Sorry, I am not up on all IRT models. I just remember those brakes which were as significant as the roar of a Harley Davidson on the pre R33 cars.
also the pre grafitti & pre scratchiti dayz....
do not forget an all railfan window equipped fleet ..
lol !!
The R1/9's had that distinctive "electric" smell that I remember. It was particularly strong when walking between cars.
"1. Those non-florescent lighted stations in the IND subway waiting for those R1-9s."
I remember this as well at my home station (Union Turnpike on the E/F in Queens). By the time my parents moved the family from the Bronx to Queens in 1970, fluorescent lights had been installed as far east on the line as 71st Continental Ave station. Union T'p'ke got the fluoro's in 1985.
"2. The motors of the R1-9s revving when leaving a station."
I loved that sound!
"3. No air-conditioning, just ceiling fans."
I remember the whirring sound so well.
"4. The noises the trains made moving through the tunnels without some of the sound proofing of today's trains. The windows and end doors where continuously open during the summer and the sound effects were amplified."
Yep. The noise was so bad you couldn't hear the person next to you shout.
"5. The screetch of the brakes (steel on steel) when a train came into the station."
This is still around today, unfortunately.
"6. Tokens, and the click of that wooden turnstile."
Yep..."whirrr, clunk clunk clunk."
"7. Riding under an el and peering up at the wooden walkway. Today the walkway has changed to some yellow material."
I remember doing this at my grandparents' stop, Ditmas Avenue in Brooklyn.
"8. No public address system. You were not a customer, but a passenger."
This I don't recall.
"9. Roll signs and marker lights."
I remember the ones on the R1-9's the best.
"10. Free passage and riding between cars."
This is still around.
"11. Double letters for local trains."
Sure, I rode the EE for years before the N took over the route.
5. The screetch of the brakes (steel on steel) when a train came into the station.
(This is still around today, unfortunately.)
The sound today is not the sound I am referring to. I meant "Scrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeethch" where you sometimes had to plug your ears.
8. No public address system. You were not a customer, but a passenger.
(This I don't recall.)
Surely you must remember these trains did not have the availability of the conductor announcing the next stop.
10. Free passage and riding between cars.
(This is still around.)
Correct, mainly on the IRT and on the BMT/IND on any trains older than the R-44 I think.
Can't you switch cars on the R-62A's where the small cabin is used?
Yes. I meant you can switch cars on the IRT. Seems like the modified cabins on those R-62s are taking a cue from the R44-46. I'm not so sure about the ability to do so (travel between cars) on the R-68, R-142, R143.
R-68: No
R-142: "B" cars and "A" cars where there are no transverse cabs
R-143: ??? I suppose so in "B" and "A" cars, again, where there aren't any transverse cabs.
Storm doors were locked on the BMT standards for the same reason they are locked on the 75-footers.
In the olden days, on trains with PA systems, the conductor would announce the next stop after the train had started up again. For example, he would say, "34th St., next" on an N train of R-32s after leaving Union Square.
Was there some indicator in the Type D triplex for the next stop? I can not remember. In Phila. on the old Broad Street trains, there was a next stop indicator in the middle of the car. By the time I rode them in 1977 while in college, they were long since disconnected as were the fans dismantled.
BTW for a few years, about 1979-1982, SEPTA refurbished two Broad Street B1 cars with original paint, seats, fans... They tried to make them look similar to original 1928 delivery at the inception of the Broad Street Subway, and the cars were put in revenue service.
I remember B'way ENY and other Fulton St. local stops with the old bulbs as late as 1983. Scary sights these stations were. The shadows cast in these stations creeped me out.
I got the willies when using the 42nd St. underpass. Seeing the lower level, with the track and the rest of the platform fenced off gave the impression of a twolight zone.
yea they were TOUGH back then!!
Not like the WINERS of today ..no A.C...
lol !!
Hey, I thought of two more things that are not around.
1. NO PLASTIC- The old models; Low V, Standard, Type D Triplex etc. did not have an ounce of plastic in them.
What did they have?
Mostly steel
Glass
Porcelain straps (and there aren't any straps anymore, anywhere)
Rattan Wicker seats.
No plastic anywhere.
2. Heaters under the seats. At times they get hot. When you got up,
you had a hot bottom. Anyone remember that?
[2. Heaters under the seats. At times they get hot. When you got up,
you had a hot bottom. Anyone remember that? ]
Last year we serviced the heaters in 6688, come up & we'll toast you bottom < G >
Look boss, a heata!!!!!!!!! (Chicago gangsta talk, c. 1920's.)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Those oldtimers had steel, steel, and more steel.
I remember the heaters on the BMT standards and R-1/9s. The heat would come on in the latter cars randomly near the end of their careers, whether it was needed or not, even if it was a sweltering day and the train was crush loaded.
-Mixed consist IRT mainline trains- anything from an R12 through 36.
-Trains in many colors: jet black, aqua & white, maroon, red, dark green, stainless steel, the TA-mandated grey with blue stripe.
-Seats in several colors: wicker, pink, light blue, grey.
-Those huge color-coded route signs at the end of R42s.
-Enamel or porcelain (?) white-on-dark blue station signs on el platforms dating from the station's construction.
-Outdated service information ("Connections for 9th Avenue Elevated") on el stairways.
-Els along 3rd and Myrtle Avenues.
-The grade crossing at East 105th.
-No grade timers.
-Hearing a prewar train approaching in the distant tunnel.
-Hot dog stands and bakeries (59th/Lex) within fare control.
-Seeing an R6 and 42 across the platform from each other at numerous B Divison terminals.
-Working "TO CITY" and "FROM CITY" indicators at fare control of some outer-borough stations.
-The embarrassment of everyone hearing you finish yelling your sentence when the train stops.
-The sound of compressors revving up at terminals.
-The non-existence of rolling suitcases, cell phones, boom boxes and leaky Walkmans.
-The possibility of the B Division train you're waiting for being any one of five or six different models.
-Both sides of the Manhattan Bridge open at the same time.
-The thick heavy grease pools that were left on the tracks, under the trucks, of any of the prewar cars at the terminals (until very recently, on the Sea Beach line, at the Stillwell Avenue Terminal, at Coney Island, there was the signatures of the Standards and D types where their trucks rested, on the eastern track).
-Trains in many colors: jet black, aqua & white, maroon, red, dark green, stainless steel, the TA-mandated grey with blue stripe.
Like this?
Yep, yep, yep *sighs* The good ole' days.........
Stuart, RLine86Man
I remeber the old days too, they had some great old equipment, I remember the early to mid 60's when some of the Low V's subways were around, for some reason that was my favorite subway it was fasinating to a small child,I remember my dad working on the IRT and I would tag along.Back then the "el" platforms were wooden with the old big wood turnstiles, I like the old R-1-9 trains also by this time I was old enough to ride by myself.I remember the god awful subway paint jobs like painting the R-9's on the J line white and blue, and the R36WF trains that were painting white, and the Low V's in their final apprearance a green paint job.
I remember, on one paint scheme of R1-9 it proclaimed "City of New York". I can not think of any other model that proclaimed it in letters half the height of the train.
To this day, when I walk on Surf Av. between W8 and Stillwell, I still can picture an R1 on the lower level as the natural train there and the one that comes to mind first.
I rode the Low V on the Bronx Third Av. El and I remember TWO railfan windows. (One for you and one for your date?) That train made me wonder if it would make it. The old man of the subway system with just a little time left. That must have been 1967 or 1968.
That "City of New York" lettering was applied to the R-1/9s at the factory. Look at any photos of those cars when they were brand new and you'll see it. Since there were no car washers in those days, it didn't take long for the lettering to get covered over by dirt and grime. When car washers were installed and the R-1/9s given a good scrubbing - surprise! - the lettering became visible once again.
That's not as bad as the smorgasbord trains on the IND and BMT. At least the IRT SMEE cars looked reasonably alike, except for the R-12s and R-14s.
All right, here is one more thing not on the subways anymore.
Yes there are pan handlers now, but I remember in the old days, you would have a guy playing an accordian. He was blind and would walk through the subway car and play a happy song. There was a cup attached to the far side of the accordian. Nearly everyone would put a coin in the blind man's cup.
I would see this every once in a while way back in the "old days."
Then he got out of the subway and took off his 'blind' glasses...there was one by Bloomies for many years. How bout the 'Abasynnian Nuns' collecting for charity?? Just suddenly, I'm remembering the Redbirds from fourty years ago...working on the last of them now. There was the guy with no legs that had the square skateboard...hopping over the anticlimber plates. CI Peter
There is lots of talk about N Broadway Express service, but during the rush hours pre1986, I found the schedules for the Expresses to be awkward!!!
During peak hrs, in the AM, the Northbound N's ran via Exp in Manhattan, and the Southbound N's ran via Local. In the PM, it was the reverse!!!
I always noticed that there much much more frequent local N service benefitting the Queens passengers vs. the Brooklyn bound passengers that used the N Express. The locals seemed to come 4 minutes apart, and the expresses came at irregular patterns of 7-10 minutes or in bunches consistently!!!!
I never understood why this was (too late now!!!). But anyhow, hopefully the N one day will become a FULL TIME Broadway Express and have equally frequent headways in BOTH directions!! Tony
More likely the N will become an express and have equally INfrequent headways in both directions.
What drives me crazy about Broadway service is that the N and R have always tended to be bunched: you wait 6 mins for one, then the other comes in 2 minutes.
That is becasue you have to squeeze a "W" in there north of 34th St. and you have to squeeze an "M" in there south of Whitehall St. On paper of course!
This problem existed pre 7/22/01.
I despise this too. I was at 14th St yesterday on an R68 Q looking at the uptown side. A packed N train arrived and left packed. Not 90 seconds later, a nearly empty R train rolled in right behind it.
"I never understood why....." The answer should be obvious: the ridership. N operating express in Manhattan is good for Brooklyn (Sea Beach) riders. They are fewer in number than Queens riders, for whom the local service is preferable. I suspect this situation will be restored come 2004.
They'll either have the W covering the local to Whitehall, or the cheap plan is to switch the N to the local at Prince for the Queens peak direction.
That won't satisfy Astoria riders. They want the local so they can access stops south of Canal St, not stations like Prince or 23rd St. My bet is that the N express/W local to Whitehall setup will be used.
Tony: The peculiarities of N train service at that time where caused by the demise of the EE in 1976. The N was now to run between Forest Hills and Coney Island from about 6am to 7pm. These trains would run express in Manhattan except during the am rush southbound and pm rush northbound when they would run via bridge but otherwise make local stops north of Broadway-Canal Street. There was a second N service running between Forest Hills and Whitehall Street during the am rush southbound and pm rush northbound making local stops. At other times on weekdays and all times on weekends the N would run between 57 Street and Coney Island via bridge running express in Manhattan. N trains ran express in Brooklyn between Pacific Street and 36 Street or 59 Street from about 6am-10pm. The details are a little complicated.
Larry,Redbird R33
In 2004 we can uncomplicate it Larry. We start the Sea Beach as the Broadway Express from 57th Street, run if over the Manhattan Bridge to Coney Island. Send the W or the R or some other train to Astoria. Make the N train an express BMT train again----Brooklyn and Manhattan. Nothing complicated about it at all.
I agree.. but I prefer the N to stay where it is since I can't recall any other line running to Astoria. So by 2004, leave the R where it is.. terminate the W at Whitehall Street ... at last put the N on the express tracks via Bridge.. and everything will be just fine.
N Bwy
I'll drink to that N Broadway, but what Broadway are you, the one in Manhattan or the Broadway in Queens along the tracks to Astoria? I could never figure that one out, but since there is N next to your name I figured you were on the square in the first place.
Hey Fred, did you catch the latest diversion news on the MTA's website? N trains are using the bridge during the late hours for the next few days.
A good piece of new Steve. I will celebrate my having a malted.
The Broadway in Queens is where the IND goes. There is no reason for the (N) to go that way again. That's the job of the (R). The street the Astoria line rus over is 31st Street.
:-) Andrew
The Astoria line has a Broadway station. The IND has a Grand Ave. station. Where Grand Ave. crosses Queens Blvd., the name changes to Broadway.
And Steinway Street really isn't Steinway Street.. Because it runs on Steinway Street for a short period. And it couldn't be Broadway, because it after Steinway Street, it runs on Broadway. Werd, isn't it?
On top of that, although The G/R (V) line runs on Queens Blvd, it also runs on Broadway as well. So it makes sense to call it the Broadway Line, but that will make things very confusing.
Like the N line, There is also a Broadway station on the G line which is a parallel street. And The #1 Broadway Local. Even the signs indicate this.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
You realize it is the same Broadway, all the way from Queens Blvd
up into Astoria right?
It goes thru Elmhurst, Jackson Hts, Woodside into Astoria
Yes, Grand St. as it is known in Brooklyn, starts at the East River (gets interrupted by the BQE); snakes around becoming Grand Ave. in Queens; as it crosses Queens Blvd. becomes Broadway and heads once again to the East River shortly after it crosses 21st St. Shaped like the letter U. Must be mind boggling to drive it from end to end and count the number of traffic lights and to time the whole ride!
I wish that some other train would go to Astoria. Let the Sea Beach run from 57th Street and go to Coney Island, express, and over the Manny B. But you've heard all that before. Is the TA listening?
I wish that some other train would go to Astoria. Let the Sea Beach run from 57th Street and go to Coney Island, express, and over the Manny B. But you've heard all that before. Is the TA listening?
Fred: I can understand wanting the (N) to be express through Manhattan and Brooklyn and to use the Manhattan Bridge, but what is your problem with it going all the way to Astoria? Apart from it differing from your memories, that is.
:-) Andrew
That's a great idea. No N to astoria. Sure. Lets just have the W, and on the weekends and night when that doesn't run, we'll replace it in queens with 1 bus. Miss the bus? too bad. Can't fit on the bus? who cares? At rush hours, we can have 10 minute headways waiting for a W, which will be so packed that people are forced to walk or take a cab. Hey, why not just pull down the astoria el while we're at it?
don't mind me and my sarcasm...
I don't mind your sarcasm. It is all mind over matter, and I don't mind and you don't matter. Kidding!!!! I pulled a SelkirkTMO with that one. Seriously, couldn't the W and another train go there? They seem to be pulling new lines out of the air. I would feel much better if the Sea Beach simply lived up to its BMT tradition and went from Manhattan to Brooklyn and back. I think such a shorter route could lead to its becoming an express that way.
perhaps when the next bridge flip comes... ?
it might have made more sense for them to run the q diamond up to astoria, and turn the w at 57th, but who knows why and where they came up with the current service pattern. i'm sure there's something we ain't considering here...
all i know is on the queens end, the n/w combo (with the w run local in queens, that is) seems just about right.
What about the Q and W to Astoria with the N terminating at 57th? Didn't the Q run to Astoria at one time?
Not as an express Q rather a local QB (bridge) and QT (tunnel).
Astoria is in the sunshine, not a rat infested tunnel. Fred should be proud to see the N in Astoria and he should want to share his blessings with the people of western Queens.
Good point Peppertree. If such a route could lead to the Sea Beach becoming an express again, ok. But I just believe that as long as the train goes from Coney Island to Ditmars Blvd it will be a local. AND YOU KNOW I DON'T LIKE THAT AT ALL, DON'T YOU?
It could go to Astoria via Broadway express, but you'd have to forgo the thrill of skipping 49th Street. I wouldn't stand for it myself -- who really wants a pseudo-express? Leave that stuff to the F on Hillside.
>> It could go to Astoria via Broadway express, but you'd have to forgo the thrill of skipping 49th Street. <<
Actually, any Broadway express can continue to Astoria without stopping at 49th St. There is a crossover from the express to the local tracks just before 57th St. I assume this is not now used by the W because there may be Q trains waiting to enter the 57th St. terminus that would block the switch. (But when the West End Exprerss (T) train used to run to Astoria, it skipped 49th.) And if 57th ceased to be a terminus if the 2d Ave line is built, this problem would go away.
Very simple handy Andy. Every train that has gone to Astoria has been a local. The fact that it covers three boroughs by its very nature takes in a lot of passengers over such a large area. It stands to reason that such a train would be a local. Before the N went to Astoria, it was known as the Broadway Express in Manhattan and the Sea Beach in Brooklyn. When it was routed to Astoria it became a local. Get it? And BTW. the last year I lived in New York I lived in Astoria, so there is nothing personal there.
I don't think one had that much to do with the other. The (N) was made local because of limited capacity on the Manhattan Bridge. With the south side tracks closed, no Broadway route could run express. With the north side closed, there is only room for two lines and unfortunately for you the Sea Beach got the shaft.
When the Manhattan Bridge (hopefully) reopens completely in 2004 or so, the (N) could run express on Broadway and then continue to Astoria. It would have to cross to the local tracks between 34th and 42nd like the (W) does now, since it is the local tracks that continue down 60th St, but that would only add one local stop, 49th St.
:-) Andrew
Well if that is the case then I have no gripe with it. Of course, no one seems to be aware of the fact that the work on the Manny B might NOT be completed in 2004 and we will be waiting until the cows come home before we know who is on the bridge and who isn't. Didn't work on the other side of the bridge run years behind before it was completed? Maybe all of this predicting and planning is very pre-mature. Maybe I have to be satisfied with an occasional GO that temporarily puts my Sea Beach on the bridge.
Well, right. We have no idea how long the Manny-B reconstruction is going to take apart from the official word.
:-) Andrew
Actually, the N can cross from the express to local tracks before and after 57th Street station. But not when trains are relaying at 57th Street.
"Every train that has gone to Astoria has been a local."
The current W is an Astoria train that runs express on Broadway and then over the bridge.
I stand corrected/ Thank you. I get pretty emotional about my train and sometimes even I think that is a little bizarre, but that is just the way I am. Very strange for a senior citizen to act.
I wish that some other train would go to Astoria. Let the Sea Beach run from 57th Street and go to Coney Island, express, and over the Manny B. But you've heard all that before. Is the TA listening?
Bring back the T, QB, and QT ;-)
I'd settle for the T myself.
N Brooklyn Service (or maybe it is the R service) is screwy today on 4th avenue. For those of us stuck along the 45th and 53rd street stations, we have better night and weekend service than at rush hour. At 4th ave stops where there is a 2 local/2 express track layout, every station but 45th & 53rd has 2 trains (the express stops have 4). We suckers get 1 train, the R. SRO AM rush of course!
What makes it worse is that no one rides the West End M train, even at rush. It would be much better served running local to 59th when the N runs express (let it turn on the Sea Beach express track...it isn't like they are used in service)
The N & R run nearly half empty in Manhattan...but plenty full in Brooklyn. Maybe if more whites keep heading out to Brooklyn, "the beautiful mosaic" will get some real service.
huh?
I can tell you if the N ran express in Manhattan as the Broadway Express as once was and should be, there would be a hell of a lot more traffic on it. There is a Broadway local already, the R, and we don't have to turn my train into another local, which has been done by the powers that be.
Ever since they created the W line, I have no problems with the N line... Because I have two choices now... HAHAAHAA!
N Bwy
"At 4th ave stops where there is a 2 local/2 express track layout, every station but 45th & 53rd has 2 trains (the express stops have 4). We suckers get 1 train, the R. SRO AM rush of course!"
I'm sorry to hear that.. But to be frank, I always thought the R got favorable treatment over the N.. I realize this when I often waited at the 59th Lex Ave station to see 2 R's pull in with seats in it.. I guess you know how I felt? RIGHT?
N Bwy
PS: Thank GOD for the W line!
Hmmm...yes and no. The R's only have seats open in Manhattan. If you catch it 36th street Brooklyn, that is far less likely.
The whole N/R situation is bass ackwards IMHO.
Can't run the M to 95th, as there's no yard to store these trains and they'd have to deadhead back up 4th Ave to get to/from CI, creating an annoying bottleneck. The first M from Metropolitan Ave doesn't arrive at 36th St. until 7:30 AM, so you'd figure another 10-12 minutes to get to 95th St. But M service would have to start leaving 95th St an hour earlier. That's 8 sets of trains which will have to be brought from CI to 95th St. Not that easy.
It will once they get the B/D tracks fix via the Manhattan Bridge.
N Bwy
The N from Queens was supplimented with additional diamond N service which went to Whitehall St. The odd thing about Bway pre 1986 was that there was NO southbound express service in the AM rush and NO northbound express service in the PM rush!
Here is a hypothetical routing plan that I think could work when the Manhattan Bridge fully reopens. This plan assumes that the MTA orders enough R-143's and a repaired Culver Tower. Rush Hours are weekdays 6:30-9:30 AM and 3:30-8 PM. Late nights are 12 AM-6AM. If a subway line is not mentioned, then I'm proposing no service change to that line:
A: Operates between 207 Street and Far Rockaway only. No more A's to Rockaway Park or Lefferts Blvd. A runs via 8 Ave/Central Park Express and Fulton Express. The A operates at all times. Late nights, A runs local between 168 and Euclid. This route is basically today's A to Far Rockaway.
B: Operates between 207 Street and Coney Island. B runs via Central Park West Local, 6 Ave Express and West End Express. In Brooklyn, B runs express between Pacific and 36. It also skips DeKalb. Rush hours, B runs express between 9th Ave and Bay Pkwy to Manhattan (AM rush) and from Manhattan (PM rush). Other times B makes all stops south of 9th Ave. Operates all times except late nights, when it would be a shuttle between 36 and CI.
C: Operates between Bedford Park Blvd and Lefferts Blvd via Concourse Local, 8th Ave/Central Park Express and Fulton Express. C runs express from 145 Street to Euclid Ave. Operates all times except nights, with 12 minute headways at best during non-rush hours.
D: Operates between 205 Street and Coney Island via Concourse Express, 6th Ave/Central Park Express and Brighton Local. D runs express between Fordham and 145th Street to Manhattan (AM rush), from Manhattan (PM rush). Other times local in the Bronx. D operates at all times. Late nights D runs local from 145-59 Street and express between 34 and West 4th.
E: Operates between Jamaica Center and WTC (if the station ever opens, which may be soon). Only difference from current route; E express between 71 Ave and Queens Plaza. It runs local east of 71 Ave. Late nights, E makes all stops in Queens.
F: Operates between 179 Street and Coney Island only. F runs via Hillside Local, Queens Blvd Express, 53rd Street, 6th Ave Local and Culver Express. In Queens, F is express between 71 Ave and Queens Plaza at all times. In Brooklyn F express between Bergen St and Church Av at all times. Rush hours, F express between Church Av and Kings Hwy to Manhattan (AM rush) and from Manhattan (PM rush).
G: Operates between Court Square and Church Ave at all times via Crosstown Local. I would like to see the return of six car trains, if possible.
J: Operates between Jamaica Center and Broad Street at all times. J would no longer terminate at Chambers.
K: Operates between 168 Street and Euclid Ave. K runs via 8th Av/Central Park West Local and Fulton Local. Operates all times except nights. This is today's C route.
M: Operates between Metropolitan Ave and Broad Street via Nassau and Myrtle Local. Rush hours, M extended to Coney Island via Brighton Local. M operates at all times except late nights, when it's a shuttle between Metropolitan and Myrtle.
N: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island via Astoria Local, Broadway Express and Sea Beach Express. Operates at all times. N runs express between 57 and Canal in Manhattan, runs over the MB, skips DeKalb then proceeds express between Pacific and 59th Street Brooklyn. N then makes all stops on the Sea Beach line. Late nights N runs local (via Montague tunnel) between 57 Street Manhattan and 59 Street Brooklyn.
*A related bus service change: S53 and S79 bus routes extended northward up 4 Ave in Brooklyn from 4 Ave-86 Street to 4 Ave-59 Street. The two SI buses would make no stops between 86th and 59th Streets, terminating at 4 Ave-59 Street.
Q: Operates between 179 Street and Brighton Beach from 6 AM-10 PM weekdays and from 9 AM-10 PM weekends. Q runs via Hillside Express, Queens Blvd Express, 63rd Street, Broadway Express and Brighton Express.
V: Operates between 71 Av and Church Avenue. V runs via Queens Blvd Local, 63rd Street, 6th Ave Local and Culver Local. V operates at all times. Rush hours, V extended to Kings Hwy making local stops between Church and Kings Hwy.
W: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and 9th Ave, Brooklyn. W runs via Astoria Local, Broadway Local, Montague Tunnel and 4th Ave/West End Local. Rush hours, W extended to Bay Pkwy, making local stops between 9th Ave and Bay Pkwy. W operates weekdays 6 AM-9 PM.
Running the F and V on the Culver and the B and W on the West End were originally David G's ideas, which I thought were great ideas. This plan may be a little extravagant, but I believe that many people would be happy with this. Staten Island riders can now take a bus directly to express service. Weekend headways would be either 12 or 15 minutes depending on the line, except for the R, 1 and 6 lines (which would have 8 minute headways). Passengers for the most part would still see their train running on weekends. They'll just have to wait a little while longer.
What do you think? Comments and questions are welcomed. I promise to not go on the defensive.
Sorry for the long post.
Didn't David G's idea for the B and W call for the W to be the main West End service and for the B to run weekdays only? At least that's what I thought I saw. I also think the D and Q should be reversed, that is, run the Q local and the D express (except when the Q is not running).
It's just that I sort of like the way the services to Coney Island (except the N) are set up now, and would like to see as much of it as possible stay that way. Before 7/22/01, we had three 6th Avenue IND services to Coney Island, the B, D and F, and only one Broadway BMT services. The Brighton Express, the Q, also connected to the IND (for obvious reasons). But on 7/22/01, it became three Broadway services, the N, Q and W to Coney Island, leaving the F as the only IND service to Coney Island.
The BMT once again dominates in southern Brooklyn (if only in spirit), while from 1989 to July 21, 2001, it seemed like the BMT lines were a shadow of themselves and that the IND had gobbled everything up. I dunno, maybe it's for sentimental reasons that I would like for the Broadway lines to remain the main services on the Brighton and West End lines. So I think that when the B and D resume operation in Brooklyn, they should run as the "supplemental" lines on the West End and Brighton lines and that the W and Q should remain the dominant lines.
Since he's proposing, basically, that the Q would run local nights only, it would have that "special night service" category on the MTA maps, and thus could run express at all other times.
Maybe if they decide after all the work is done that the bridge should only have weekday service to prolong it, or it just coudn't be fixed good enough to sustain full time service. Then the Q could be the full time local and the D the weekday express, without even having to switch in the evening.
"Maybe if they decide after all the work is done that the bridge should only have weekday service to prolong it,..."
Let's not be more pessimitic than necessary. There's plenty of actual reason to be pessimistic about the progress of transit without inventing new reasons.
The DOT and TA insist that the bridge is being made strong enough to carry the trains for the rest of all our lives, assuming proper maintenance. There is no reason I have heard to disbelieve them.
It’s hard to comment without tph numbers, but let me try.
Doesn’t seem like enough service to E 53rd St. With reducing Es and Fs to make room for Qs, it may be sardine cans again. Also, you need a whole bunch of reverse rush hour Es to support the traffic from Penn Station to E 53rd.
If you’re going to propose A, C, and K service through the Cranberry St. tunnel, why not do a little construction work at the same time and have the K connect to, and become, the G? All that’s needed are crossovers just west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn. You then have a K train from 168th St to Court Square and G riders actually get a direct ride into Manhattan. Seems more useful than 2 local services on Fulton St Brooklyn. Also, the G is overkill on the Culver line (and less useful, since it doesn’t go to Manhattan) once you have the V there.
Others have said that this would be a congestion problem on the Brighton Line at Dekalb in the AM rush. You have M trains trying to merge in with R and W trains that are already on the Montague track, which may (will?) result in D and Q trains backing up behind. But I do like the idea of both 4th Ave and Brighton Lines having access to lower Manhattan, MB south, and MB north.
Three CPW locals? Instead, why not take some of the E trains and extend them to Euclid or Lefferts? You could even shut down the WTC platform on weekends and run all 8th Ave locals to Brooklyn.
Seems unfair to make weekend service worse than it is now, if that’s what you’re proposing in some cases. Sure, if you have 3 services on CPW they wouldn’t be as frequent (not that they’re great now), but where you’re not adding services they should be the same as now. For example, the 4 and 5 are nicely full just as they are.
Do the Culver traffic numbers justify increasing tph dramatically?
Looks like too much service to Far Rockaway unless you plan to reduce the number of A trains.
Obviously, some constituencies would scream loudly, because they are getting reduced service for the presumed greater good of the majority:
riders at the Lefferts stops, at West End local stops, at Culver local stops, at Queens Blvd local stops (no more direct service to E 53rd St).
Overall, it seems like it’s an improvement for more people than it hurts, but there might really be some hard-to-fix snags.
"Doesn’t seem like enough service to E 53rd St. With reducing Es and Fs to make room for Qs, it may be sardine cans again. Also, you need a whole bunch of reverse rush hour Es to support the traffic from Penn Station to E 53rd."
YES the E is very popular along 8th Avenue.. MOST DEFINITELY COMPARE TO THE C which runs along the same route. So forget the K service! It's not necessary...
"If you’re going to propose A, C, and K service through the Cranberry St. tunnel, why not do a little construction work at the same time and have the K connect to, and become, the G? All that’s needed are crossovers just west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn. You then have a K train from 168th St to Court Square and G riders actually get a direct ride into Manhattan. Seems more useful than 2 local services on Fulton St Brooklyn. Also, the G is overkill on the Culver line (and less useful, since it doesn’t go to Manhattan) once you have the V there."
The G is not an overkill line, it's a suppliment line.. assisting what ever train that will run along with it. And since it doesn't run that often, it wouldn't interfere with the local traffic.
"Others have said that this would be a congestion problem on the Brighton Line at Dekalb in the AM rush. You have M trains trying to merge in with R and W trains that are already on the Montague track, which may (will?) result in D and Q trains backing up behind. But I do like the idea of both 4th Ave and Brighton Lines having access to lower Manhattan, MB south, and MB north."
The W has no business traveling to Brooklyn once the Manhattan Bridge is fixed. Just the R into Brooklyn is sufficient enough.. Besides, where will the M go if the W ends up going to Brooklyn?
"Three CPW locals? Instead, why not take some of the E trains and extend them to Euclid or Lefferts? You could even shut down the WTC platform on weekends and run all 8th Ave locals to Brooklyn."
The E trains were practically empty when they ran out to Brooklyn, so I feel it is totally unnecessary to send them out there.
N Bwy
I was referring to some E trains instead of all C trains, not in addition.
The G is not currently overkill, but if you had V and F service on the Culver line, what's the point of the G?
You did not post tph in either direction, so a bit hard to judge without these details. For example, hard to judge if service from Lefferts, Far Rockaway, and Rockaway Park would be adequate without overflowing the capacity of the Cranberry St. tunnel. One major concern, there must be at least 12 tph E trains in both directions, for the west side to 53rd/Lex. connection. That leaves 18 tph for Q + F. Probably 10 - 12 tph would have to go to Q, at least in the northbound direction AM, leaving 6 - 8 tph only for F. Thus, deservedly so, fewer Culver Exp. than Brighton Exp. Nice that V @ 9 tph would take up the slack for the Culver. Not sure that sending the N on Broadway Exp. southbound from 57th in the AM rush is good for Astoria riders, probably better from 42nd. Also, Q could run 24/7 instead of the D, making the local stops under the current category "special night service". But these are just minor details. From what I can see, yours is a very nice plan.
It is a nice plan.
There are some political concerns though. Just as riders on the east end of Queens Blvd. complained about not being able to board an F train at all stops, riders on the Lefferts leg may perceive being slighted by being put on the Eighth Av local (the C) and having to transfer to an A later, losing their seats.
When you get on the A now at Lefferts, you get a seat on the express train. While I personally like your plan, there would be plenty of whiners whining to City Hall about cancelling the Lefferts A.
Ron, he is making the C another 8th Av. Exp. -- CPW Express. This is essentially the Lefferts (A) as is now, with just a letter change to lessen confusion to the unitiated tourists.
Right off the bat, it doesn't work. You have a 2 track bumper block terminal at 207th St. and you want 2 services (A&B) terminating there? Trains lay up there at times, you will have congestion all the way back to 168 St. You also have all these routes merging at various places. What about trains per hour on all these lines? I am positive the schedule makers at Jay St. will figure a service plan out, thank you! Finally, employee work programs are based on getting the most cab time out of the employee for the buck. Based on the length of some of these lines, they are too short to do 2 trips and too long to do 3 trips.
Bill, that's probably an error he's got having both terminate at 207th. Probably should be 168th or 145th for the B. Q Exp's plan is not a fantasy as he is not requiring anything new to be built, except for repair of the Bergen St. tower. I agree with you that Operations Planning has been doing a good job with what they have. Q Exp's plan for 2004 I believe is a good and realistic one, and if the MTA's financial situation does not deteriorate too badly by then, Operations Planning may well come up with a 2004 plan that will not be very different from this one.
"Right off the bat, it doesn't work. You have a 2 track bumper block terminal at 207th St. and you want 2 services (A&B) terminating there? Trains lay up there at times, you will have congestion all the way back to 168 St. You also have all these routes merging at various places."
RIGHT! Too much service for such a small area.
N Bwy
207th St is already congested at rush hours with just the A. Some trains are taken out of service at Dykman St. because of this.
You're absolutely correct. I'll have the B terminate at 168 Street instead.
First, the (C) already terminates at 168 St and why should you send (B) to 207 St. instead, then you'd be canceling the (C) forever. The (B) will do fine with the terminus at 145 St.
Can someone mention what equipment each line would be using? Provide ideas for each route?
Sorry it took a long while to get back to you. Here's a hypothetical listing of equipment for this plan. If a line is not mentioned, then that line will use the same equipment as it does now:
A: Predominately R-44's with a few R-38's mixed in.
B: R-68A's
C: Predominately R-38's with a few R-44's mixed in.
D: R-68's (the earlier half, the ones currently on the B and D lines).
E: Predominately R-32's with a few R-46's.
F: R-46's
K: Predominately R-32's with a few R-38's mixed in.
L: R-143's (assuming the MTA orders enough of them)
M: Predominately R-40M's and R-42's, with a few R-40 slants mixed in.
N: R-68's (the later half, the ones currently on the N and Q Local).
Q: R-40 slants.
R: R-46's
V: R-46's, with perhaps a few R-32's mixed in.
W: A mix of R-32's and R-42's (from the L)
Q Exp, I've had a chance to look over your plan more carefully, and so here are a few suggestions for minor amendments:
1. In order to better distribute the rush-hour crush, it is preferable to keep the less desireable V local on the more desireable 53rd St. route and the more desireable F express on the less desireable 63rd St. route, and not as you have redistributed the two lines.
2. Having the F express on Culver at all times is sheer extravagance. The V should run as now, weekdays only, and thus the F as express on Culver. Likewise F should be local on Queens Blvd., nights.
3. I'd prefer Q instead of D on the Brighton late nights. It would function under the category "Special Night Service" as Brighton local and Broadway Express to 57th St. Or, additionally and alternatively, continuing on from 57th/7th to Queens, local all the way to Jamaica, instead of the F, with the F running from Coney Island to 57th/6th only. This alternative would give more desireable night service, to Broadway instead of 6th, to both Brighton and Queens Blvd. riders.
4. North terminal of the B should be 145th, not 207th.
5. Could have A specials to Rockaway Park in the rush, as now.
--Harry (Q Brightliner)
"3. I'd prefer Q instead of D on the Brighton late nights. It would function under the category "Special Night Service" as Brighton local and Broadway Express to 57th St."
And I prefer the D! because it covers a much larger area than the Q.
N bwy
If you run the Q on Brighton late at night, where would the D go? P.S. 24/7 6th Ave. connection to Brooklyn via. Manny Bridge. Also, if that was the case, where does the D terminate? Use both on a local since they have headways of 20 to 25 minutes at that time anyway.
You're right, if the Q runs instead of the D, it would have a ripple effect that would radically change his plan. His plan is nice as is.
But the D should run as the Brighton Express to Brighton Beach when the Q is in operation. The Q should be the Brighton Local to Coney Island when it is in service.
Why?
It may sound like a dumb reason, but I would like for the Broadway lines to remain the main lines of the Brighton and West End lines or at least on one of them. Under the current Bridge service pattern, Broadway dominates southern Brooklyn once again, like in the old days. Granted, the Standards and the Triplexes are long gone and the Sea Beach runs does not run express in Manhattan over the Manny B, but the BMT dominates southern Brooklyn once again.
If the Q is only going to run weekdays only when the B/D side reopens, then maybe the D should remain the Brighton local. That would minimize confustion as to where Brighton local service is going. But if weekend Q service is retained in 2004, then it should run local with the D running express. The pre-7/22/01 D line was much longer than the present Q line is. It also had a lot of stops. If you make the Q local and the D express, you even out the number of stops and the running times somewhat on the D and Q lines. But I doubt late-night Q service will be retained, so during late nights, the D would run local to replace the Q in this case.
According to Q Exp's proposal, the Q would be running out to Jamaica, making it nearly as long as the D. As it would serve Broadway, which is somewhat less desireable than 6th during the rush hour, there would be less crush-loading on the Brighton Express, with a better balance achieved between the Q and the D. You can gather from my handle that I too am a BMT fan, but from the pre-Chrystie era.
Well we can all agree on that point. We are BMT men and that system rules. But we've got to get the Sea Beach back on board and that means getting her to run as the Broadway Express and over the Manny B. It's as simple as that.
Fred, push on the First in Thread at the top. You'll see the plan referred to has the N going over the bridge.
Yeah, but the plan has the N train going over the NORTH side of the bridge without the tracks back in place. (sorry, couldn't resist) :)
Soup time.
Smartass!!!!!!!
Is my yob, man ... heh.
"But the D should run as the Brighton Express to Brighton Beach when the Q is in operation. The Q should be the Brighton Local to Coney Island when it is in service."
Yep! Because the D is a more important service than the Q.
N Bwy
You mean 6th Av. is more important than Broadway in the rush hour. All the more reason to have the Q run express and the D local, so as to not have crush loading on the express, instead having more even distribution of ridership on express and local. This is precisely the reason the less desireable V local runs through the more desireable 53rd St. station on the more desireable F express runs through the less desireable 63rd St. station. To achieve better balance on express and local. And, it seems to be working quite well!
"If you run the Q on Brighton late at night, where would the D go? P.S. 24/7 6th Ave. connection to Brooklyn via. Manny Bridge. Also, if that was the case, where does the D terminate? Use both on a local since they have headways of 20 to 25 minutes at that time anyway."
I agree... Once the Northern Manhattan Bridge is restored, from a financial standpoint the D line will be a better service at night because it is the only line that runs to the far reaches of the city. As a result, providing a one seat ride for many residence who are more likely to ride the trains at night. Besides, the Q is useless at this point because of where it's located, the business district. So providing night service as a substitute for the D is not a smart idea from a financial standpoint.
N Bwy
Q Brightliner (Harry),
Sorry it took years to get back to you. Thanks for your votes of confidence. I feel that you have many solid suggestions. I only wanted to explain my reasoning behind some of these routes.
1. Your idea about sending less desirable lines into more desirable corridors is solid in the vast majority of cases. However, I think 53rd Street is unique. As it stands right now, the E is crowded in both directions (Queens and Manhattan) during rush hours while the V (by rush hour standards) isn't that popular. The reason why the E is crowded to Manhattan (AM hrs) and from Manhattan (PM hrs) is because there are a good number of F train riders who are basically being forced to ride the E. Cutting the E to 12 tph without bringing the F back to 53rd Street makes a bad situation worse. Returning the F to 53rd Street I believe would take some of the burden off the E.
2. I agree that the F running express at all times is extravagant. The only reason why I did this was because some route has to cover the 63rd Street Line at all times (which would be the V). With that in mind, we now have a situation where there are three 24 hr trains on Queens Blvd (E, F, and V) and three on the Culver between Bergen and Church (F, G and V). One of these trains, on both the Culver and Queens Blvd lines, should go express at all times. The F I felt was the best train because it has the longest route. Hey, it already goes express in Queens 24/7.
Would you agree with me if I routed the F through 63rd Street during nights and ran it local in Queens and Brooklyn? The V under this scenario would no longer be needed at nights.
3. The Q as the 24 hr Brighton train? It's a good idea, but that would make things a little more confusing for nighttime riders. The D is already local on Brighton.
4. North terminal of the B should be 145? Hey, between you and me, that 207 Street thing wasn't a typo. I was trying to create more options for riders between 168 and 207. Since I now know that 207 Street probably can't handle two routes, I now feel that 168 Street is the best terminal option for the B. I've always felt that 145 shouldn't be a terminal because of its lack of transfers. 168 has the popular transfer to the 1/9 lines.
5. Rockaway Park rush hour specials? Agreed, as long as its northern terminal is 207 Street. The 59 Street terminal always seems to slow other expresses down.
Q Exp (Les)
Les, now you have a double reason for sending the F via 63rd and the V via 53rd. Two services on QB and one on Culver at night is enough. You really ought to make that change. And I take back about making the Q the 24 hr service on the Brighton Line as it would have a ripple effect on your plan, ruining it. And yours is a very nice plan.
Harry,
Sorry it took a while to get back to you. I would have no objection with sending the F through 63rd Street Tunnel if the MTA constructs a real pedestrian-friendly transfer between the Lex-63 Street station and the Lex-59 Street station. If there is a plan to construct a passageway between these two stations, then the F should stay on the 63rd Street Line. Your reasoning behind the F being the 63rd Street train and the V being the 53rd Street train is sound. I'll probably change that aspect of my plan.
I hate your idea in adding the K line.. It will interfere with E service of which I think is more useful. But the C does sound like a better idea than than sending three "A" train to three different places.
What will be even better will be to create a shuttle from Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway 24 hours.. But the problem is, is the missing track way that is between the Far Rockaway and Rockaway park Branch.. So, that will have to be built, as well as a tower to organize traffic there.
I see an improvement for everyone! Especially Far Rockaway passengers which carries the bulk of the passengers compare to Lefferts and RK park.
But I wouldn't leave out the others (they too will see more service)! The disadvantage is, if they want to access faster service, they will have to transfer at some point. But more service to me, is better than less service.
By the way, I read a message earlier about Leffert Blvd passengers possibly complaining about possibly not getting a seat when they get on the A line. That is possible.. But with more service on the A route, it will be less possible than before.
N Bwy
Would the Q be on either side of the Manny B's?
Personally I would prefer a 6th Ave Q on the North Side of the Manny B, with the V switched to Broadway.
6th Ave: B, D, F, Q
Broadway: N, R, V, W
Manny B North: B, D, Q
Manny B South: N, W
But that would leave the Culver with one train...
-J!
I'd rather not see the Q return to 6th Avenue. The Q is, was and should remain a Broadway line. To be honest, I prefer the way the Manny B service is set up now. I didn't like when 6th Avenue had the B, D, F and Q trains. Broadway offers better coverage of midtown (thanks to its diagonal running) and much better transfers to other lines, especially to the Lex and 7th Avenue IRT lines. If you had to transfer from an IRT express train to a 6th Avenue express, you had to first transfer to an IRT local train or the N/R to catch the B/D. If there was Broadway express service over the Manny B during 1992-96 while I went to high school at Brooklyn Tech, I could have cut a lot of time off my commute, because I would have been able to transfer from the 2 to the Q at Times Square or from the 5 to the Q at 14th Street. Would have been a lot better than having to switch to the N or R at Times Square or 59th and then having to switch again to the D or Q at 34th.
Uh...who's running to Rockaway Park?
:-) Andrew
You have some very good ideas. I like the idea to extend the C Line from Euclid Avenue to Leffets Blvd. While some passengers between Leffets and Rockaway Blvd will be upset because of the loss of direct express service prior to 1988 all non rush hour service was via local. This extenstion will also offer additional service between Rockaway Blvd and Euclid Avenue. I would propose that all reverse peak A trains operate express between Grant Ave and Rockaway Blvd to expediate their movements to and from Far Rockaway. I also like the idea that all A service operate to Far Rockaway. It will increase service to this area by 50% between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Blvd.
To send the B Line to 207th Street is just not feasible. Remember the 8th Ave Line is 2 tracks between 168th Street and 207th Street. I regret that the B has to continue to go to Bedford Park Blvd because you would want to maintain one northern terminal for the C at 168th Street. The B has to terminate at 145th Street or Bedford Park because then passengers at 153rd Street and 163rd Street will be confused. Also the B from Stillwell to 145th Street is long enough.
I like your idea of running the D as a local between 59th and 145th Streets when the B is not running. It will maintain a 6th Ave service at all times for passengers between these two points.
Forget about your K Line. It just duplicates the current C service and is a waste of money and a needless duplication.
Also forget the Q line to 179th Street. Remember the Q will be your 2nd Avenue service once the northern part of 2nd Ave opens in 2010 which is just 6 years after the bridge reopens.
Also forget the M going back to Brighton. It has been almost 16 years since Brighton Line passengers have had a direct Nassau Street service and their was no major complaints about it. The M will still be a West End Line service. Since the M will be running via West End forget about the W Line going to Brooklyn. Basically the W will be a weekday Broadway Local between Ditmars Blvd and Whitehall Street. Upon completion of 2nd Ave i would not be surprised that the Q will operate between Lexington Ave/125th Street and Whitehall Street late nights and weekends. Hence the Broadway Line will have 2 local services between 57th Street and Whitehall Street at all times(R and W or Q lines) and 2 express services weekdays(N and Q) between 57th Street and Canal Street.
In regards to Queens Blvd i would extend the V Line weekdays as a local service between Continental and 179th Street and switch the F to express service between these points. However you will start to get complaints from Van Wyck,Stuphin Blvd and 169th Street who will lose direct express service weekdays. I also would run the R Line 24 hours a day. I would operate the G Line between Queens Plaza and Church Ave at all times with 4 car trains so that they can be turned easily at Queens Plaza in the middle track. A timed connection for G passengers between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave was doen between 1988 and 1990 when the R was cut back due to construction in the 60th Street Tunnel and then for budget reasons.
I like the idea of extending the V to Church Ave and operating all F trains as Expresses between Church Ave and Jay Street but i believe their is sufficent service between Church Ave and Kings Highway with a Kings Highway F as a local and a Stillwell Ave F as an express. To have the V operate to Kings Highway while a excellent idea is not feasible because of lack of track space at Kings Highway and to the fact you are going to have to do a lot of switching at that location. I also believe they will be some complaints because F passengers between Stillwell and Ditmas Ave going to local stations between Jay Street and Church Ave will complain about the additonal change they will have to make. I also would run the V at all times except midnight hours so you will have the following Queens Blvd services and their routes to Manhattan as follows
via 63rd Street-F Line(all times)
via 60th Street-R Line(all times)
via 53rd Street-E Line(all times) and V Line(except midnight Hours)
Again between 1987 and 1990 this was the Queens Blvd/Manhattan service pattern with the F operating via 53rd Street except for midnight hours when the F terminated at 57th St/6th Ave or 21st Street/Queensbridge.
Thats my opinion only from someone who use to work in Operations Planning many years ago.
Thank You
Barry: I noticed in your torrent of pretty good verbiage you never mentioned my Sea Beach at all. Since that is the case I've decided to ignore your post. Try again, ok?
But he did mention the N running express in Manhattan again. And all the way to 57th Street, not switching to local after 34th Street like the W does now.
If you are talking about me, then that is what I am for. Sea Beach equals Broadway Express, equals over the Manny B, equals terminating at Coney Island. Quote, unquote, over and out.
Fred, The N willreturn to its pre-1986 Broadway Express schedule except that it will operate to Ditmars Blvd and will operate express between Canal Street and 57th Stat all times. The N willoperate express in Brooklyn except for late night hours when it will make local stops. The N willskip DeKalb Avenue when the Q Line operates
Thank You
Hope you are happy now
Very happy Barry---you're a gentleman and a scholar.
"The N willskip DeKalb Avenue when the Q Line operates"
The N never skipped the Dekalb station.
N Bwy
Back in the olden days, before my time, Sea Beach trains skipped DeKalb at all times. By the late 50s or early 60s, they skipped DeKalb during rush hours. AFAIK N trains continued to skip DeKalb during rush hours well into the 70s.
They skipped in 1990 too.
No! My dearest Q shall never be stopped at Whitehall!!!!!! If it doesn't run it doesn't matter!
-J!
You are going to need some late night service for 2nd Avenue and until the entire line is completed the Q will have to turn some where in lower Manhattan because it really will be a waste of money to operate it to Brooklyn during the late night hours.
Thank You
The C line in Q Exp's proposal is a Fulton St. express along with the A. Essentially, it is today's A to Lefferts Blvd. So the K he is proposing is not a duplication of his proposed C but rather a re-naming of today's C. And I don't buy your premise that the 2nd Av. line will be open by 2010, as it is wishful thinking. In contrast, Q Exp's proposal is not based on fantasy but on what will be available in 2004 and deserves more serious consideration.
I like the Q going to 179, where it should go and it can. 57 street, 63st/Lex, Roosevelt, 71 av, Union Turnpike, Parsons Blvd, 179.
Thank you. I was looking forward to this. Some comments/questions/ideas:
Why don't you leave the C alone? If you want a new name for the Lefferts A branch, call it the K. I don't see any reason to confuse C passengers.
I see you've relented on the late night CPW express. I'm surprised I managed to convince you in the end!
As was pointed out after I posted my plan, your F/V plan in Brooklyn (which is essentially the same as mine) is physically impossible. A crossover necessary for the movement has been removed, so northbound expresses must bypass Avenue U. Extending the V to Stillwell would solve the problem -- Avenue U would simply be a local V stop.
The F must run via 63rd unless a convenient underground connection is built from Lex/63 to the 4/5/6 (preferably directly to the 4/5). The express is too popular; express passengers need to be given some reason to ride the local.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the M (and weekend Q) in Brooklyn.
Your bus extension is ambitious, but I can't imagine that ridership would warrant the extra service, considering the R already runs underneath.
Your weekend headways are too high. Many lines need better than 12-minute headways on weekends; the 1, 6, and R (as the only Broadway express) would be tremendously overcrowded with 8-minute headways. I certainly don't think the Brighton express stations should have more frequent service on weekends than the 1, 6, and R local stations in Manhattan; trains in the outer boroughs are empty in comparison to the Manhattan services, particularly on the IRT.
This plan does make some interesting changes, though, particularly in IND territory.
David,
Sorry it took a while to get back to you.
I must admit, running the C (instead of the K) as the Bronx version of the A is sentiment on my part. I wanted to return the C to the Bronx and Queens. As a kid, I remember the C as being the only train route to run through all four NYC Subway boroughs on a single run. I wanted the C to keep its title while at the same time speeding up the route a little.
The D being a nighttime CPW Local: Yeah, I admit it!, you were right. Something about having people stand in dark, dank stations for 20 minutes when they don't have to just didn't seem right to me.
Culver Crossover: I didn't know the MTA removed the switch on the northbound track! Maybe they plan (hopefully) to replace the track.
F via 63rd Street Tunnel: I think you're probably right on this one.
M train as the Brighton Express: Agree to disagree here as well.
S53/S79 bus extension: This is more out of convenience for SI riders. Many of them ultimately wind up using an express train. Why have them transfer from a bus to a local train to an express train, when we could have them transfer directly to an express. We could save them a transfer.
Weekend Headways: You're probably right on the R, 1, and 6. Those lines would probably need 6 minute headways. The 4 and 5 could arguably need 10 minute headways. Every other line in my opinion needs 12 at best.
After about a month of service on the (V), I can't believe MTA really blew millions of dollars in just investing in a new service. In addition, I find that the Grand St. Shuttle is really unecessary.
It would of been much better if it were for the following:
(B) terminate at 2nd Av.
(D) terminate at Grand St.
Discontiue the (V) and the Grand St. Shuttle.
Have the express extend to 71st. & Continental.
(F) will continue running on the route that it is running right now.
I meant the express by (Q) express.
Take a look at the track maps posted on this site. There are no crossover tracks between Grand and Bway-Lafayette. You can only have a single train in the entire stretch from Bway-Lafayette to Grand St. inclusive at any one time. That means a meager turnaround capacity at Grand; not enough for either B or D.
So you want to replace the V with Q-Broadway service? How do you get the Q train from Broadway/57th onto the 53rd St tunnel (that's where it would be needed, because you need two services intersecting with the 6 train)? Were you looking at a subway map when you posted this?
The V train is actually picking up a lot of people now. That was the goal, and it worked.
I have to admit, I find it comical that people will say things like, "The MTA are all a bunch of idiots," or "I can't believe they wasted all this money on the V train," or similar comments - but when they lay out their alternatives, we find out (not a surprise) that they aren't terribly well thought-out.
No offense intended really. And the thought of sending Q expresses through to Queens is not a bad one, in and of itself. It's just that I don't see a really coherent plan that addresses everything the current plan does.
Of course, in two years, when the Manny B fully reopens again, every service will get better.
What about retaining the (Q) Express that it is right now by the time when the Manhattan Bridge reopens again?
The Q could theoretically be expanded into Queens by 63rd if the F is rerouted back to 53rd. The question here is which of these three trains becomes local. Because of the G connection, either the E or F would have to go local annd the Q express. I would recommend doing away with the V, extending the B and D to Second Ave. via 6th ave. express, running the E local to 71st street, and running the F and Q express. My one concern is would there be enough room for Q, Q diamond, and F on the Queens Blvd. express (if the Q continues to Queens via 63rd you can't terminate the Q diamond at 57th)
Nobody ever seems to mention that if you send the Q to Queens via Broadway/63rd Street that you would have no service at the 57th St-6th Av station. How would you provide service there?
That's a problem I've thought of. Yes, there would be political objections to closing it. But couldn't people walk to 57th and 7th, 59th bet. 5th and 6th, 53rd and 5th, 53rd and 7th. All stations fairly close and providing service to 6th, 8th, Astoria, QB, and Broadway. It would be nice to keep the station open, but if it prevents better service to Queens, it's not worth it.
Now this is what I'm thinking of right now once the Manhattan Bridge reopens both sides:
Have the (F) rerouted what it once was at 53 st. Tunnels for the Weekends and Holidays.
Have the (Q) express remain as a Broadway line and terminate at 71/Continental on Weekdays as an express throughout the line on weekdays only.
For the (B), it will reroute through the 63 St. Tunnels during the Weekends and Holidays.
The (R) should run on the Manhattan Bridge on Weekends and Holiday.
The (M) on weekdays however, will run on the same route that it runs right now.
Is this ideal?
For the (B), it will reroute through the 63 St. Tunnels during the Weekends and Holidays.
If you did that, it shouldn't really be called the B train. B should be Washington Heights by definition and is currently (for reasons I don't quite get) Concourse. How about calling it the P train?
The (R) should run on the Manhattan Bridge on Weekends and Holiday.
Please change that to the N! It'd be less hassle (at least on Subtalk). Besides, "R" stands for "R"at-infested-montague-st-tunnel!
Yes it may not be true, but currently, the (B) doesn't operate during Late Evenings and all weekend.
The Plan on my "Wish List" for 2004,
N Train: Midday & Rush Hours: All Stops in Queens and Manhattan, Express stops in Brooklyn from Astoria Queens to Stillwell Av Brooklyn (via south side Bridge).
ALL Other Time: All Stop from Astoria Queens trough Manhattan to Stillwell Ave Brooklyn (via South Side Bridge)
R Train: All time expect Nite: All Stops from 71/Continental, Queens through Manhattan, to 95 St-Bay Ridge, Brooklyn.
Night; R Shuttle Train Service between 42nd Street Manhattan and 95 St-Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (Via Tunnel).
W Train: Rush Hours, Middays & Evenings until 9:30; PM-Express Stops in Queens from Astoria Ditmars Blvd to Queensboro Plaza to Manhattan (AM hrs) to Queens (PM hrs); all stops from Queensboro Plaza to 34 St Manhattan. Express Stop from 34 St, Manhattan to Stillwell Ave Brooklyn (via south side Bridge); Via N in Brookly between 36 St and Stillwell Brooklyn.
Evening after 9:30 PM; All Stops in Queens from Astoria Ditmars Blvd to 34 St Manhattan. Express Stop from 34 St, Manhattan to Pacific Street, Brooklyn (via south side Bridge); All stop from Pacific Street to Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (Via N)
Weekend and Nights; No Service.
D Train: Same as before 7/22/01
B Train: Same as before 7/22/01
Q Train: Rush Hours, Middays & Evenings until 8:30 PM; All Stop in Queen from 71/Continental to 57th Street NR STATION, Manhattan (via 63rd tunnel); Express Stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn from 57th Street NR STATION, Manhtattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn. (via southside bridge)
No service in weekend.
F Train: Same as Now
E Train: Same as Now, return to (? station formely WTC)
M Train: Same as Now
V Train: All time expect Nights and Weekends; All Stop from 179 St Jamaica Queen to 2nd Ave, Lower East Side Manhattan.
Nights and Weekends; NO Service
G train: Same as now
Grand Shuttle: Discontinued as of 12 AM January 2, 2004
1/9 Service to/from South Ferry: Restored
2 Train: Express Service Restored.
3 Train: Return to New Lots Ave Brooklyn.
The Return of the blue H and K Train:
People aren't getting off it at Queens Plaza northbound anymore. Ridership on the E and V is becoming more balanced every week. It's a definate success.
Hello there can anyone tell me how to get a roll sign from the redbirds? I'm sure that they aren't recycling them. If you know please let me know either here on the message board or via e-mail: haro4560@aol.com
-George
i want a # 7 fluahing express sign !!! asap !!!
NYC Transit sells surplus materials from time to time. I haven't seen roll signs up for sale on the website, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be purchased. Call Paulet Dennis at 718-694-4071 (that's the name and number on the MTA website) or email padenni@nyct.com. According to the MTA website, however, there's a minimum $50 processing fee on purchases.
David
It was reported earlier in the week, that Cars 6746-50 and 6841-45 had entered service. They haven't. 6746-50 and 6751-55 are in the process of doing road tests.
If the webmaster is reading this, please make the appropriate corrections.
-Stef
Spotted the sperry car go up 6th av this evening, making it's yearly tour i suppose.
the, coming home just now on the E, we got stopped by a massive rail gang in 53rd street tube (queens bound), which loaded all their equipment on (oy gevault) and headed to 36th street. apparently the sperry car came through and found lots of things that needed fast repair the night or two before.
when they left out the front at 36th, there was a nice layer of grease and dust on the car floor...
so... if you're traveling late this weekend, expect the unexpected.
I was on a work train that was sent out with new rails, becouse the Sperry Car found broken rails. We droped off two at 181st on the SB track, two at Chamber St on the South bound track, 3 between Jay St and High St on the North bound track and 1 at 42 and 8th on the North Bound track. All these were found by the Sperry car. On our way back the 207 yard, I saw a Track gang replacing one of the track at 181st. They were holding up a a train in the station.
Robert
Excellent work.
They also replaced a rail on E2 track at New Utrecht Ave on the N, causing a 45 minute suspension in service northbound on both the N and W.
Better a 45 minute suspension to fix a single rail Then to have one go for an hour or two or more or more to fix a rail after they get the people off a derailed train that would have to be first moved off the rail.
No arguement - just grousing because it cut into my lunch and they forgot to tell us about it.
Better a 45 minute wait while the rail is fixed than to be laid up in a hospital for months with multiple fractures because of the derailment caused by the broken rail. I can live with that.
Track geometry! Appropriate punishment for the offenders should be three days of Module 2 Boolean Algebra at 207th. I didn't have a vacation from my job there. CI Peter
oh well with all of this anti redbird society here & all of these transvere cab fan club members posting theier
" VICTORY AGAINST THE RAILFAN WINDOW EQUIPPED RAILCARS "
by this summer i will B only a scuba diver when i visit NYC ??.........!!!....??.
Give me a honk when you're ready to come out and I'll make some arrangements for some bungee cord and we'll strap you to the front of a 142. It's about as good as it gets, and there's a nice breeze up front. :)
Sadly, even where there IS a "foamer glass" up front, it was my experience during my visit that they put this crappy mylar on the glass owing to bastards with glass cutters which turned the foamer view into a bad acid trip as far as visuals went. I was HIGHLY disappointed myself even where such glass did exist. I *did* manage though to get a cab ride here and there on a completely unauthorized basis owing to some friendly "supervision" ... damned if I can remember where or when though. Heh.
But if you ain't at the controls (and even THERE I was amazed to see that some of these same assholes carved up the MOTORPERSON'S glass!!!) then there ain't much of a view no matter what you ride these days. Now for the complete "foamer" experience, it'd be REALLY neat if they'd connect up a TV camera on the nose of selected trains and provide a screen for viewing inside the car, perhaps a BNC spigot to connect to a VCR ... but alas, they just don't make mushrooms powerful enough to convince "ta management" to go for the GOH for that purpose. Besides, the morons would probably scratch up the teevee screens also.
LOL....!!!
please!! can i pass on that bungee cord ??
thankz for the rest of your post ............appreciate it very much.
You're most welcome, guy ... so we trade up from bungee to leather belts? Strapped to the chains or the bulkheads? Inquiring photographers knead to no their F stop. Whoops ... 7 stop. :)
Have to confess, when I was a kid, the foamer glass *was* the ride ... obsessed as I was, I got to DO it for a living, and after having the right rail under your nose and being able to REALLY see the signals and wayside signage from a dark cab, the foamer glass just never cut it anymore. Like the LoV's and R1/9's and the standards and other prewar cars before they got their LEFT window painted (seated foamer glass), it wasn't quite as good as the storm door. Well ... the CAB view is even better ...
NYCTA could solve a lot of problems AND make some extra cash by just strapping a camera below the cab window on the outside, and just drop a microphone in the cab for ambient noise (and juicy radio convo) and SELL the recordings to lunatics like us ... now that would just be the teats and it would stop all the WHINING. :)
(ain't NOTHING like the PAID seat up front) ...
yea...!!
( oh well ) ....lol.!
Oh yeah ... BONUS POINTS if the NYCTA whips that microphone into ZMAN'S CAB! Heh. Imagine the gutteral noises as he shoots the timers! And comes close to an "intestinal event." Now THAT would be worth $49.95 off cable ... just one trip! Paper voo!
Seriously though, it'd be the ULTIMATE foamer experience ... especially if the camera could be mounted IN the cab ... perhaps a chuchuhat cam ... YEAH, that's the ticket ... whoops ... gotta wipe some drool off the keyboard. :)
I was in NY last August and I saw that those crappy mylar things were on the windows of the full-width cabs, but I don't remember seeing any on the regular railfan windows. I just thought they were so you can't see into the cab. I do remember seeing all the scratched up windows, though. Did they put those mylar things on the side windows too? Seems like the next thing they'll do is design a windowless subway car.
David
Maybe the "Money train" was a prototype of da car of da future! :)
I just thought they were so you can't see into the cab.
I think they've got less to do with preventing you from seeing the cab or the view up front than they do with keeping unnecessary light out of the cab. When you're driving a car at night, do you want the dome light on?
(Also, lots of folks don't like to be watched while doing their job)
Mark
No, no, no, I think you're confused. The mylar screen is barely visible. What blocks the view is the polarized screen on the cab window in every transverse cab (except on the R-62/62A). Why do you think so many SubTalkers long for trains with narrow cabs?
so all the redbirds will be gone by this summer...........??
We heard this on ABC radio news network at the top of every hour etc..
amtrak is falling completely apart not making any money
repairs are not cutting it ridership falling & not making money to
support operations ( profit )the U.S. government will cut dem'loose,
" let amtrak go & fail "..it did not work & support itself ...
hell!!... they had the most coldest trains i ever rode on, last time i rode the southwest chief & the lake shore limited it was freezing cold !! sooooooooo unfortable in the fall cold weather ...geeeeeez..!
where wa' the dammed HEAT on an amtrak train .....no lol here ..!!
what do you think? have you heard this news report like i did on abc?
I'm not surprised ... all I have is KABC-7 and KTLA-11 here in upstate New York (our NBC and CBS haven't signed off on us getting those) and haven't heard anything YET ... still, no surprise ... after all, them trains are competing unfairly with the embattled hairlines, and we all know that a train just can't suck down Enron like a jet. So, they gotta go. Politically self-fulfilling prophecy by an elephant party who couldn't pocket any NASDAQ funny munny from Amtrak.
Meanwhile, Texass and Kentucky get brand new trains at the expense of a supposedly "downhill system" ... federal Enronning ... nothing less. If the Empire Corridor up the Hudson dies along with the rest and the state can't come up with something, it's never visit NYC again since I will NOT ride Gray running mutt nor Trailwaste ... and I know where I can park were I to drive ...
But no surprise ... none at all. What would one expect from the Enron party?
If the Empire Corridor up the Hudson dies along with the rest and the state can't come up with something, it's never visit NYC again
Unlikely. IIRC, the Empire Corridor is one of the Amtrak routes that makes money. Certainly the Albany-NYC part, though I guess I'd be surprised if the Albany-Buffalo part does ... don't know how loaded the trains are there.
And NYS has already shown that it will fund rail through NYSDOT. If Amtrak takes a dive and the useful parts of its route are divided up, states will likely be involved. I wouldn't fear for the future of the Empire Corridor. The rest of it ... yeah, I'd fear.
CSX and CP don't want to HEAR about it ... and from talking to folks I know active on both railroads (wiglets also) NEITHER railroad would bid on a traction contract either. So the question would be, what happens? MTA? No thanks ... not for the level of service we'd expect here on an expense divided by territory basis. We'd be screwed.
Amtrak doesn't run a whole lot of trains to Beefaloo and even Syracuse gets shortsheeted. I've noted that between Smallbany and NYC, THOSE trains are usually packed to the gills ... but they're rare. NYC/RENNSALA is a different story. The commuter hour runs are also SRO often ... off-peak is pretty thin. Probably break-even. Overall I'd agree that it's Hudson River "customers" that keep it lit though the rest of upstate REALLY needs those trains even if they run at a loss.
But in a time of Enron budgets, hard to say if the state can even assume the losses ... this is POLITICS, not reason, and POLITICS will dictate reality ... big deficits or no taxcuts? What would possibly be the incentive when politicians have an irrational fear of the willingness of the public to forgo cheapass pocket change in exchange for something of REAL value? Amtrak's gone in the hole having to satisfy the morons like Clifton Pork Congresscritter John Sweetie who killed a commuter rail project up here by demanding that the "trial run" run through his jerkwater district instead of where there were RIDERS? Even Amtrak had to blow him off ... guess who's in charge of Amtrak's money ... whoop ... conflict of interest? Nope. Arthur Anderson's apparently doing the poll numbers.
But kiss it good bye ... a handful of spoiled elected (ordained?) BRATS have thrown a tantrum and screw Amtrak ... nyah-nyah ... and folks wonder WHY my attitude about politics? BOTH of our major parties are full of crap ... if only we could burn it in diesels. :)
The only two routes in the country that turn an operating profit (according to Amtrak) are the Metroliners/Acela Express and Auto Train. And that excludes capital costs.
Yeah, it seems true. An article was in today's Washington Post, you can read it online here.
Yeah, let's kill Amtrak ... after all, the airlines are making money hand over fist and don't need to be subsidized after all ... gotta love politicologic ...
See http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/26/nyregion/26HOTE.html or better yet, the front page of today's NY Times. In the paper copy, it's a fairly clear picture of the Greenwich Street corridor, now sticking out as a ridge above its excavated surroundings.
I tried to access the NY Times for these photos but they are a real pain in the ass. Can anyone provide a link to simplify things ? Thabnk you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry, you have to get an ID (which is free) and log in.
Also, the paper copy of the photo is better than the one on-line.
It seems that New York City is getting dirty again with transit projects. A new bridge linking manhattan and the bronx is being built. The L.I.R.R. connection to Grand Central, the Second Avenue Subway Line, the possiblilty of the Queens Super Express coming to life. Light rail possible on Staten Island. The manhattan bridge rehab project leading to both sides of the bridge re-opening. This is defintly awesome. Also a possiblity of a 42nd Street Bridge, linking the Industrial (slowly becoming Commercialized) area. This will defintly allow NYC also to become the top contender for the 2012 Olympics as most if not all projects are completed, also by this time, the commerical sector of New York City should be stronger then it was in the 90's.
"A new bridge linking manhattan and the bronx is being built."
What's this?
"Also a possiblity of a 42nd Street Bridge, linking the Industrial (slowly becoming Commercialized) area."
And what's this? Never heard of this one either. Or do you mean the 3rd NJ tunnel proposal?
Are we talking actual public proposals by transit agencies or subtalk fantasy?
http://NYC.gov/html/dot/html/whatsnew/reconstruction.html#bronx
Go there it gives the info on the bridges from the DOT.
The 42nd Street bridge is more of a proposal to go along with the Project thats gonna happen in Queens to help ease the congestion that will go to the Queensboro Bridge once the commerical/ residental center is built.
Its not the link sorry about that, I read the thing wrong, now I was reading it somewhere. I just have to find it.
Well, the LIRR connection to Grand Central is being constructed, true, and I think your positive attitude is cool and justified.
But I haven't heard about the new link to the Bronx. The Second Av subway is beinhg designed to be compatible with one in the future, but where did you hear about the new Bronx connection?
http://NYC.gov/html/dot/html/whatsnew/reconstruction.html#bronx
thats the link for the new bridge in the bronx.
Thanks for posting that. I'll check it out.
So this is a vehicular bridge. It is not intended to carry trains.
And it's not between Manhattan and the Bronx, but along E. 153rd St. over the MN tracks.
>> A new bridge linking manhattan and the bronx is being built. <<
NOT! If you read the link you posted in your later post, you will see the new bridge is NOT between Manhattan and Bronx -- rather, it is along 153rd St. over the Metro_north Harlem line tracks -- wholly within the Bronx. And it won't be started till 2004.
I know, I said correction not the link. Trust me I noticed after it was too late.
Most of these are pie-in-the-sky projects that lack funding. Let's see how many get built. Only then can we speak of a Renaissance.
Most of them are on their way, with recently the MTA saying that the final planning studies are under way for the Second Avenue Project. The other projects are already started, the 42nd Street Bridge is the one up in the way, but if the commercial center in Queens is Built the odds of a 42nd Street Bridge are highly possible. It might not carry rail traffic, but it would be the first long span bridge in a long time, nearly 50 years I think or more. If the Queens Super express goes to plan and is built, we can at least say bye to the V line because it would be a totally useless line. The Manhattan Bridge rehab project is under alot of pressure from the MTA to get it done on or ahead of schedual to get trains rolling faster. The system is getting a definte tweaking towards a serious improvement in transportation and lowering overcrowding and inviting more riders. This will increase the use of the system, and bring more commercial devlopers to other parts of the city. I think the MTA sees the huge advantages to having the projects completed.
the possiblilty of the Queens Super Express coming to life.
My info on possible Queens Super Express tunnels under Sunnyside Yards was contradicted by a LIRR engineer who posted here last week.
More definitive info to come once I've spoken with a contact at LIRR.
Or were you referring to other Queen Super Express info?
In the 2nd Ave discussions the topic of speed vs. comfort came up.
If you had your choice of riding, say, from the upper east side to Wall Street on a sardine-like packed train, but with only 1 or two stops, a super express, OR, a guaranteed seat every day but a very slow ride that makes every stop, which would you choose?
I vote for the latter. I do NOT like crowds. I have been known to let 6 or 7 trains go by when I took the BMT every evening to go home (since I lived near the end of the line it wasn't a problem getting a seat in the AM). Currently i take the LIRR to work and there's usually a seat. But when I get to work, sometimes I let a couple of elevators go up till I get a sufficiently depopulated one!
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm somewhere in between. I'll get on a crowded train but usually avoid the sardine can experience. My observation is that most New Yorkers will pick the sardine can over a 2 minute wait, though.
Speed, but then again I don't tend to site down on subway trains anyway.
The worst is on the 7 line at 40th street. Its horrible if you are going westbound, since you are fairly close to the end of the line as far as crows go. all the trains that come in are packed. I once let at least 10 trains pass before there was one empty enough to go into. Thats the only thing i hate about the 7...the crowds. That is why we need a full-time, 2-directional 11 Flushing Express to run to Bayside...eliminate the crowds on the Flushing El. See my post MY THOUGHTS ON FUTURE SUBWAY EXPANSION for more.
I just go for it. In NYC, you never know when the next train will be. Sometimes, an empty 6 comes in before I even get to the exit of the station (which is at the center, I ride in front), other times, you can't even see the headlights of the next train. In DC, your chances are better. I see people every morning who get off trains from Shady Grove at Grosvenor just so they can have a more comfortable ride, but I assume these are people who get on at White Flint. Also, others wait at Grosvenor for the trains that originate there.
Interesting. When my Dad introduced me to the complexities of the BMT (he was manager of the Western Union office just off Times Square) he gave me the "tip" that at the height of the rush hour it was often worthwhile to forego the speed of the Brighton Express for the comfort of the Brighton Local.
A little later, when the Brighton Express was extended to 57th Street, he used to regularly take the Brighton Express north at Times Square to get a seat when it reversed south.
A little later, when the Brighton Express was extended to 57th Street, he used to regularly take the Brighton Express north at Times Square to get a seat when it reversed south
I do what w/ PATCO. Of cource they have a railfan seat.
I used to do that with the Q. I would take the N/R UPTOWN to Herald Square from Union Square, then change to the uptown Q and change directions at Lexington Avenue. The same thing would be easier now of course.
>>>>A little later, when the Brighton Express was extended to 57th Street, he used to regularly take the
Brighton Express north at Times Square to get a seat when it reversed south. <<<
That is a trick I occasionally used when I lived in Bay Ridge and my stop was 86th Street. I'd take a train to 95th Street, go across the platform and board a near-empty Manhattan bound there. (Of course going home, I would often sleep thru my stop and have to do it then too).
I believe some motormen were wise to this cheat, and closed the doors of the Manhattan bound just as the Brroklyn-bound pulled in and I was left on the platform, steam issuing from ears.
www.forgotten-ny.com
AM: slow but comfortable
PM: fast but crowded
Since I have no AMs anymore, the whole thing is reversed.
If you had your choice of riding, say, from the upper east side to Wall Street on a sardine-like packed train, but with only 1 or two stops, a super express, OR, a guaranteed seat every day but a very slow ride that makes every stop, which would you choose?
An express (or "super express") is only fast relative to something else. It doesn't make very much sense to build a four-mile two-stop line and make no provision for anything in between. For a subway trunk in Manhattan, it would be ludicrous to build only a two-stop line without any "local" stations.
Also, consider the headways. Is your super express so crowded because the trains take 5 times as long to arrive? Is your local comfortable because a train shows up every 90 seconds? I think most people would prefer to spend their time in motion, rather than waiting.
Personally, when there are options, I always choose the fastest end-to-end route without regard for comfort. This includes time on the train, time waiting out long headways, and time spent walking. Sometimes this means express, sometimes it means local, sometimes it means changing a few times or using unconventional transfers, and usually it means walking. In the wee hours, it might even mean a taxi. But I doubt that my (or anyone's) preferences are representative of what ought to be built.
Mark
Why are the r142a cars such a rough ride, Thursday night I caught car number 7360 at 33rd street. This cars brakes were screeching very loudly and the take off was very jerky, I mean it was rough enough to make you slide down the seat. I wonder if this is a problem with the train or was it the t/o's fault, I've noticed the same problem with the r142's also. But it's not as bad as the 142a's, now I'm not trying to play favorites here, but I've heard alot of people on this sit complaining about how much better the 142a's are compared to the 142's.
More then likely the T/O. The R-142a on the 6 has a very smooth start, not bumpy like the redbirds when it moves with bumps. Normally the braking is quiet, then again nothing is perfect. Still alot quieter then the Redbirds were.
I haven't noticed any rough rides.
just give em time they will ride more ROUGH then the redbirds !!!
......lol!!............
I've noticed that when R142As come to a complete stop, they screech loudly, but only for a second. It's usually when the train is (or seems like it is) under 5 MPH. The redbirds used to screech loud and for much longer than a second. When they start up though, the R142A doesn't seem that bad.
That noise is worse than the Redbirds. At least the squeal on the redbirds sounds like a nostalgic subway sound. The R142A reminds me of the WMATA Rohr cars alot.
Screw nostalgia, the Redbird sound is more ear-piercing, and I don't find anything nostalgic about a noise of all things. Buildings (like stations) can be old, machines (like trains) have to be new.
the redbirds sound like a shit.scrap them already
The reason for this is the dynamic/regenerative braking fades out around that speed, provided that it's working correctly, the transition occurs between dynamic braking and the wheel tread friction brakes which take over. That's why you hear the screaching noise from the friction brakes only from that point until the train stops moving.
-Robert King
But all of the other car models have dynamic brakes, and they don't neccessarily have that kind of screech.
The sceeching sound itself is made entirely by the friction braking, the dynamic or regenerative braking has nothing to do with the sound other than determining when it starts. If you're investigating the sound, you'd have to look at the friction braking equipment used on the various types of cars instead of the fact that they all have dynamic braking.
-Robert King
Subway Tech 103!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Not even WabTeks people understand the problems because they do not know and I am in touch with their engineering department. My big project: how do you shift departments to put your skills to use...how do I connect into the CED engineering department? CI Peter
The car might not have had dead moter to, that could have expland the jurkey take off as well.
Robert
And judging from that sound... those brake shoes are gonna be worn soon, as said somewhere in the past on this board.
Ck Brake Tech 103.......standing by on 3885 Mc AM with a gallon tonight. SWR with dipole at 18.2 meters per leg is 1.2/1.0....controlled carrier amp is 2100 VDC 550 mAmps plate on two 572Bs. OnTheJuice....thankyou Robert for the impetus...my radio IS working with a ck from a WA9. WB2 Subway General Technician. CI Peter
Brake Tech 103: Bombardier R142s and Kawasaki R142As both utilise the WabCo BCF Tread Brake Units and also the WabCo BFCF Parking Brake TBUs. Unlike the Redbirds which had sixteen brakeshoes which contacted the tread and the flange of the wheel, the R142s/R142As have only ONE shoe per wheel and it only contacts the flat part (tread) of the wheel. There is a lot less surface area contacted and a lot more stress in braking, especially since the regenerative braking systems are not working well (turned off in the R142s) AND AC motors from what I have just found out provide 25% of the dynamic braking available from former DC motors. What you get is noisy brakes and shoes that burn like rubber/coal. Enjoy the noisy/smelly ride....the trainsets DO stop when commanded. How do you like that Train Dude???? Wanna attend my class in New Tech??? CI Peter
Yeah I know right?!@# When I swipe my card and a R142A is in the station, if I was blind, I'd smell it!
When my GM car was held up by Oldsmobile Roadside Assistance, I had to travel ON MT #2 cars at 149th/Concourse. There was a terrible smell in the station and traces of smoke....I figured it all out on Undercar service on the R142 when I serviced the brake shoes. Same nasty smell. CI Peter
Do these A+ brake mods fix this? Or will we be living with the R142/A smell forever...aye.
R142 A+ mods fix nothing. Neither do the A++ mods. They keep messing with the TBU innards to compensate for a deign error. Original inspection specs called for brake shoe replacement at 5/8ths inch. Now all brakes at 1 1/4" inch or less must be replaced. The smell of WabTek WabCo Cobra composition shoes will be with us forever in all the new tech trainsets. Rotboids use em too. CI Peter
That's nice to know. Ugh!
& now they stink too !!!
lol!!
I think the R-142s and the R-142As are much better riding than the "Redbirds" they are replacing.
#3 West End Jeff
ha ha ha !!
One word:
Junk.
One word:
Junk.
You're finally being honest about the quality content of your posts. Good work!
Ooooo, good one...
Both the north and the south signs are being offered on eBay, item numbers 1068006362 and 1068008928. A complete listing of the signs on each roll is given.
Is anybody here familiar with this book written by Fred Kramer and published in 1975?
I was wondering if it was basically the same as the book he did last year (2001) called Third Avenue Railway
Any info about the content of earlier book would be appreciated!
No, it's quite different. I have both.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse,
Is Third Avenue Railway mostly pictures, or does it have a history or other information about the elevated?
David
David, the book is about the streetcar lines in the Manhattan and the Bronx, and not about the 3rd Ave el.
Kramer's 1975 book, Across New York By Trolley, is a nice collection of black & white photos grouped by area, including photos in Westchester. The 2000 book, Third Avenue Railway: A Cityscape of Manhattan and The Bronx, is organized by route and does not include anything in Westchester. And of course there's also the 1996 NJ International publication, Third Avenue Railway System In Manhattan, which has a few color photographs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
- Third Avenue Railway: A Cityscape of Manhattan and The Bronx, 2000 is organized by route and does not include anything in
Westchester.
- Third Avenue Railway System In Manhattan, by NJ Int'l Publ., 1996: which has a few color photographs.
I had the opportunity to buy one of these for a birthday present. It was a had choice to pick just one. I picked the later mainly because it has rosters, MOW, shops & Power House data/photos, plus the cover shot is #564, I drive sister 629 at Branford, well to be honest, she's a sister-in-law, i.e. 629 doesn't have a center door.
Mr rt__:^)
Thank You Chris, I have an opportunity to buy the earlier book, and I really did not want to spend the money if it was basically the same thing.
Karl, have you seen, "By The El" by Lawrence Stelter? It was published in 1995. It's largely a photo essay about the 3rd Ave El but he photography is magnificant. All of the photos are Kodachrome 10, Anscochrome 12 or Ektachrome 32. Text is fairly informative too.
USBN 1-882608-12-7
Steve, I have that very book, and I think that it is terrific! The snow picture on pg 29 is an all-time favorite of mine. I can remember how they tried to keep Brooklyn's Jamaica line running during the blizzard after Christmas in 1947.
I just wish that someone had done a book like that for the old Lexington Ave el in Brooklyn, or even out in Cypress Hills where I used to live. One of the big regrets of my life is that I didn't have a camera in those days.
Despite robust passenger growth over the past five years, Amtrak's
financial condition has deteriorated and the national passenger railroad
probably cannot get through this fiscal year without additional federal
subsidies, the Department of Transportation inspector general said
yesterday.
The agency's annual report on Amtrak's financial condition said the
railroad cannot possibly meet the congressional requirement to become
"operationally self-sufficient" by Dec. 2, other than through draconian
cuts in employment and service.
"Both strategies are questionable," the report said. "Not only would
Amtrak's victory be hollow in the short term, but the sacrifices made to
achieve the immediate goal would compromise the physical and financial
integrity of any future passenger rail company, be it Amtrak or another
entity or entities."
The report comes as the Bush administration and Congress prepare for
decisions on the future of the passenger train in America. Amtrak must be
reauthorized this year, and numerous ideas are being discussed on a
future structure for train operation, ranging from giving Amtrak more
money to breaking up the company into smaller, private companies serving
only major passenger corridors.
The Amtrak Reform Council, formed by Congress to study Amtrak and
propose solutions, will issue a report next month that is all but certain to
recommend some private-sector solution.
Any plan to abandon a national system and serve only high-population
corridors is sure to meet stiff opposition from congressional leaders of
both parties because their states will lose service. This includes
Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.), who would likely lose the New
York-New Orleans Crescent that serves Meridian, Miss., home to Lott
political ally Mayor John Robert Smith, who is also a member of the Amtrak
board of directors.
Amtrak was formed in 1971 to take over a deteriorating national
passenger system from private railroads. It was supposed to run a national
passenger system and make a profit after two years, but losses have
deepened.
The inspector general's report said that if Congress chooses to
continue operating a national interconnected system, it must be prepared to
pay the cost.
"It is not clear whether Amtrak or any other entity could ever operate
a linked national system such as that in place today without operating
subsidies," the inspector general said.
Even if a smaller system is designed to run without operating
subsidies, significant federal capital subsidies would still be required, the
report said. The exact amount would be determined by a final system plan,
but, as structured, more than $1 billion a year would be needed in
federal capital funds.
Meanwhile, Amtrak's system is deteriorating for lack of capital
spending. The inspector general said there is a $3 billion backlog of "state
of good repair" needs on the Washington-Boston Northeast Corridor.
Delays on the corridor have increased 75 percent since 1998, the report
said.
Much of this deterioration came because Amtrak chose to spend money for
short-term projects that would help reach its operating
self-sufficiency goal. But the self-sufficiency goal then also failed, the report
said.
Amtrak's operating loss in 2001 was $1.1 billion, $129 million greater
than in 2000 and the largest loss in Amtrak history. The formula for
determining self-sufficiency is linked to cash losses, which also rose to
$585 million in 2001.
Meanwhile, Amtrak ridership and revenue have grown, led by the
Northeast Corridor, which had a 13.5 percent revenue growth and a 4.6 percent
ridership growth in 2001. For the system as a whole, including the
corridor, revenue rose 8.2 percent and ridership 4.3 percent.
However, the growth in expenses more than kept pace with revenue
growth.
The report urged Congress not to take a piecemeal approach to
bolstering Amtrak by passing new funding measures pending in bills introduced
after the Sept. 11 hijackings.
"With little exception, we believe that these proposals are premature
in that they presuppose the scope and profile of a passenger rail system
that has not yet been decided," the report said.
Amtrak issued a statement agreeing that the operational
self-sufficiency mandate had required financial moves that "left it impossible to
reinvest in the existing system and without modernized plant, equipment and
technology."
"This business model does not work," the company said. "In 2002, the
Congress, the administration and the states must seize the opportunity to
put passenger rail on a firmer foundation for the future."
That isn't the point of the article. It is saying the acency will need to be restructured if it is to be profitable, I can't see why Amtrak would be eliminated in whole.
except for the HIGH prices.. COLD trains in the winter man a real bummer ....NO HEAT AT ALL....!!!
man that teeeeeed me off big time ....
lol!
The Northeast Corridor is a critical resource for the region. It should have dedicated funding sources which are not suject to diversion for other means.
Notice how that insane "self sufficiency" mandate caused Amtrak to invest in short term projects that had little or no long-run value. Way to go Washington.
Amtrak dug their own grave. There's not vast conspiracyto kill them, just bad management.
No management can make large scale passenger rail transport profitable. Those in high places will not stop until they have everybody in a car.
Exactly what they did in los angeles....
the pe & lary...gone .....
Phil, your vast expertise obviously humble everyone into submission. Way to go, Phil.
Hmmm is this where I mention how much money per passenger mile is spent by the US government in relative terms. It is one third of that spent in Britain, one sixth of that in France and one tenth of that in Germany. In fact the British are the second worst on Earth at investment in rail. Go figure.
While European nations have sumptuous passenger rail systems compared to the US, one needs to look at how small each of these European nations are in comparison to the US. New York - New Orleans is like London to Moscow. New York to San Francisco is like London to Tehran.
For international intra-European routes, until relatively recently, the European governments kept airline fares sky-high (combined with huge subsides to their national carriers), which made the cost of going by train quite competative.
Subsidized long haul runs of this sort in the US serve no one except us railfans. It's the shorter haul inter-urban runs that need serious support-- NYC to Washington or Boston and the such.
Eliminating long haul trains will put us at the mercy of the Airlines. The whole air travel system does nothing but re-enforce the energy guzzling system in this country.
Eliminating long haul trains will put us at the mercy of the Airlines.
Uh, no ... there are, and will continue to be, lower-cost alternatives in the form of long-distance BUS services. No, they're not very appealing. But they ARE and will continue to be a slower and cheaper alternative to flying within the 48 states. And they go a whole lot more places than airlines do.
>>> But they ARE and will continue to be a slower and cheaper alternative to flying within the 48 states <<<
And unfortunately in most of the United States, the buses are a faster and cheaper alternative to train travel.
Tom
If you are going to take a Bus, you might as well drive. The only people who takes busses are the poor, the very poor and college students.
While European nations have sumptuous passenger rail systems compared to the US,
Yes, the best thing about them is the Belgian sleeper trains :)
one needs to look at how small each of these European nations are in comparison to the US. New York - New Orleans is like London to Moscow. New York to San Francisco is like London to Tehran.
Believe it or not, you at least used to be able to book a rail ticket from London Victoria to Moscow. Train to Dover, boat to Ostend then a sleeper train all the way to Moscow, with a break at the change of gague.
For international intra-European routes, until relatively recently, the European governments kept airline fares sky-high (combined with huge subsides to their national carriers), which made the cost of going by train quite competative.
Wrong!!! Subsidies made things cheaper. Now we have stopped subsidising British Airways, fares have rocketed, seats have become smaller and closer together and the airports still take ages to get to in poxy local trains. Despite the extortionate fares on Eurostar, train travel is still much cheaper. Oh and you can add £200 ($300) more to any air fare from an airport other than London Gatwick or Heathrow.
Subsidized long haul runs of this sort in the US serve no one except us railfans. It's the shorter haul inter-urban runs that need serious support-- NYC to Washington or Boston and the such.
That puzzles me. JFK is about as far from Manhattan as Heathrow is from the City of London, probably further. Is there something about American airports which makes it possible not to spend half a day there waiting? Are American aeroplanes more spacious? Do they have berths for long distance travel? Are there no sleeper trains? And is there no local service on the long haul runs for all the small towns along the way? They must be mighty cut off or you will have a hell of a lot of airports.
The Axis Allies learned how to MAKE TRAINS GO.
British James:
A train trip from the Cliffs of Dover to John O'Groats would be about a trip from Boston to Washington. The train system of the Island of Great Britain is quite equivalent to our NEC, and all considered, GB has much better train service. You're not here, James; you really don't know how bad it is.
As a matter of common knowledge, all Europeans know the United States is a huge country, considerably larger than their individual countries, each country being comparable to one US state. Us Americans know this too, as a matter of common knowledge. But most Americans forget just how huge our nation is, and most Europeans forget how small their nations are in comparison. In Europe, you can drive thru six countries in six hours (start in France and end up in Sweden via the Oresund link) (you use freeways/expressways/autobahns, doing the limit in non-rush hours). Here in the US, you are still in New York State (you start driving from Tottenville, get on the expressway and go almost nonstop to the Quebec border, starting at such time that you avoid any rush hour traffic).
Yeah, but Germany alone has 10 times as much electrified trackage as the US.
Size isn't the only issue here
I disagree about the airfares you quoted. Air travel within Europe to and from the UK has never been cheaper. The rise of the budget carriers has seen air fares tumble to the point where it is considerably cheaper to fly. To quote an example, Luton to Glasgow return (I travelled last week on business) booked the day before travel, £73.00 ($100.00). I met up with our web site host in the summer, Luton to Barcelona £70.00 return. Now, you can argue that a full fare booked on a national carrier costs more than a ticket to the US, but only people with large expense accounts do that. A year or so ago I went to Munich and it cost £400.00 If I had travled with a budget airline I could have gone for £80.00.
Simon
Swindon UK
"Subsidized long haul runs of this sort in the US serve no one except us railfans."
I vehemently disagree.
1) Even though I live in Chicago, I also realize that between the large cities there are a few million people living in small towns and rural areas. In such places, the airlines are not a realistic alternative. Look at the Empire Builder -- it serves no city of any significance between Fargo and Spokane. Yet a big chunk of its ridership comes in the "open spaces" between those cities, as many people in the small towns and villages along the line use it for bread and butter basic travel, especially in the winter when the roads become treacherous for autos and buses. Some of the stops in rural areas have more people boarding in a year than the population of the county where the station is located.
2) I have used Amtrak long distance trains for business travel, from Chicago to Washington DC (twice) and from Chicago to New Orleans. The trains were well-traveled, by all sorts of people from college students to elderly couples. I never met a railfan on any of these trips, saw nobody with a scanner or a railfan book. The people I spoke with* were either traveling by train in the manner of a cruise or were using the train as basic transportation to get to college, family reunions, weddings, etcetera.
3) Subsidized?
(a) Do you really think the short-distance trains (which I also support wholeheartedly -- we need more in the Midwest) are profitable? No! They are subsidized just as much as the long distance trains -- more so since there are simply more of them compared with the once-a-day long-distance trains.\
(b) The highways are subsidized as well. When was the last time a Senator demanded a profit/loss statement from the Federal Highway Administration?
(c) Even though the individual airlines are allegedly profit-making enterprises, the aviation system has been ENORMOUSLY subsidized. Warren Buffett, the venture capitalist, pointed out when asked about investing in airlines that the aviation industry had not made an overall profit from the Wright Brothers to that day (mid-1990s, IIRC).
*One of the nice things about traveling by train is that people actually TALK with each other and socialize, mostly in the lounge car and at meals in the dining car. It's not like airplanes, which are like enormous elevators in that people are reluctant to converse beyond asking the person next to them to let them out to go to the washroom.
I couldn't agree more with your points. I had very similar observations on the Capitol Limited to/from Washington, DC. And I agree that all passenger rail -- even the long-distance routes -- needs to be looked at as a vital but neglected form of infrastructure, rather than a profit-making enterprise.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Were we to make the massive investment in high speed rail lines (a la the French TGV), the time equation changes substantially. If you could get from NY Penn to Chicago in five hours, then you are competing with and in many instances beating the airlines.
MagLev is still a ways off, but this would potentially wipe out the airlines for many runs.
For most of us, tho', who are distant from rail passenger lines, travel by air is the only option. For business travellers, an all-day rail trip makes little sense, especially if going by air lets you be back home in your own bed the same day.
NYC and the NEC will likely see the first substantial re-investment in rail travel, but not until LGA, JFK and NWR get beyond the merely intolerable.
What about high speed rail service along the interstate highways?
I don't know about the rest of the country, but the western New Jersey portions of I-80, I-78, I-287, etc have very wide medians, and I read in another book (about secret government bases, mind you) that the interstates were in fact built like this so that rail lines may be added if desired.
I'd be a nice change in pace to have high speed trains running along the Interstates as opposed to gobbling up the medians with more traffic lanes. The trains could be Acela-type trains operating at an average of 150-200 MPH and make limited stops along the way, say at major rest areas, interchanges (both of which could also have park-and-ride facilities and serve as junction points for connecting bus or even other rail service), and of course, cities and towns along the way.
Not only that, but with the interstate/high-speed rail corridors, the "regular" rail lines can be preserved and maintained as a supplement (to serve all the little dots on the map) and also for the tourist-sightseeing-railfan group.
jeez more retro Soviet reporting on ATK.
PASSENGER transport is a mark of advanced civilization. It facillitates civilian travel for both business and pleasure. This is why nations build infrastructures. The mix between air, water, rail, auto, is a political dispute. Cloaking one's personal preferences in claims of "profit" is simply ludicrous in view of massive gov't spending in various modes--AIR BUS is a government aided consortium.. Boeing lives off Fed monies and the US Govt as a secondary foreign sales team. The Interstate Highway system was NOT paid for solely by drivers, nor is upkeep.
If I as a citizen--one person one vote--want long distance rail service, my vote is just as valid as someone else's for more airline subsidies. I would prefer to see most of the US carriers go belly and be liquidated. Air travel should be a rare and much more expensive mode of travel. High speed rail lines can replace most hub/spoke services as a far better option.
AS to ATK's management skills, try running a company with 535 'bosses' with diametrically opposed orders and nowhere near enough money to satisfy ant of them except the shut it down bozos like McCain.
Well said. I sure wish that we'd have national and intra-national high speed systems like Europe. I'm afraid to fly, you'll never get me on a plane. I'd much rather travel by TRAIN.
We should not aid the airlines, and instead the money should be spent on improving Amtrak.
Money going to the airlines is corporate welfare. Lots of people are employed by the airlines. You and I can live without airplanes, but corporate America can't.
NO, corporate america can, it just means fewer one day trips for a meeting which can now be done on the net with much less wasted resources. If the bean counters ever figure this out, the airlines are toast.
The bean counters are already figuring that out. Corporate travel budgets have been cut to ribbons.
Speaking of the Internet and travel -- I read an article on Friday that caculated with the current added delays at airports after 9/11, it's actually faster to take a train than to fly for any trip of about 360 miles or less, including travel time to and from airports/train stations (car trips of about 540 miles or less are faster than planes under the same calculation).
If the current airport delays continue long enough so they are considered a permanent part of the travel experience and the above calculations prove to be accurate, business travelers will pick up on this pretty quickly, and you will see increases in rail traffic on medium-range runs where it's available and you might even see rail lines being added where there are major metropolitan areas within that 360-mile range (basically the Northeast corridor from Washington to Boston, the Upper Midwest between Cleveland and Minneapolis, the California coastal cities, the Orlando-Tampa Miami Florida triangle and the Dallas/Fort Worth-Houston-San Antonio Texas triangle).
right, but the NEC is not the argument. HSR if well done could provide for most non transcontinenta; runs. The vital part of the present debate is the perrenial attmpt by people like Sen. McCain to eliminate all long distance service. My point is that the market for such travel exists, it is only a matter of choosing whether to serve it as national policy. I resent every damn dime spent on many aspectsof the Fed budget, BUT courtesy ofthe democratic (and highly corrupted by bribery) process these monies are voted on. I believe it is as justifiable to spend money on passenger trains as on air lines. NONE of them would survive this year without the BILLIONS in both open and hidden sbsidies, which they get. Free market? book yourself on a POabAm clipper.
McCain is guided in part I think by the Arizona mentality -- Amtrak doesn't even stop in Phoenix now due to the topographical layout of the southeastern part of the state, so it has no constituency with him or his main voter base (the southern line runs through Tucson and Yuma and the northern line through Kingman and Flagstaff). But as the Phoenix suburb of Chandler expands towards the south, Amtrak is planning to build a station in Maricopa, about 30 miles south of dotnwtown Phoenix, which would make a Phoenix-Los Angeles trip about 7 1/2 hours door-to-door.
In the pre-9/11 days, there's no way that would have been competative with a Southwest flight from LAX to Sky Harbor, but with the security restructions and excessive bag checks, that option may not seem as bad and McCain might get off the back of the long distance passenger rail service if some of his voters discovered it as an option.
New York to Chicago *is* a very viable rail route. Trains leaving NYC at 4:30 in the evening arrive in Chicago in time for the business day. Adding the cost of a sleeper is no more than adding the cost of an average to good hotel room in NYC.
You arrive in Chitown refreshed and ready for your day of business.
It is not that difficult a proposition, you know, they did it with STEAM ENGINES 50 YEARS AGO!
Elias
But for the "I wanna sleep in my own room/my hotel bed that night" crowd, the distace between N.Y. and Chicago is still slightly beyond the range where from door-to-door (or door-to-hotel) the train is faster than the airplane, due to all the post-9/11 security delays. A plane-train comparison between New York and Cleveland would be closer to the calculated limit, and of course, the Washington Post has already done plane-train-bus-car comparisons between NYC and D.C. in the past (the plane won pre-9/11, post-9/11 I think the car won and the plane and train were just about tied).
no the steam engines were gone by 1948, but the 16 hr schedule dates to over one hundred years ago. The B'way Ltd and 20th Century Ltd were precisely trains for the business travelers, complete with barbers to shave them as they were nearing arrival. If ATK could INSIST on cooperation from CSX and NS AND MADE THE EFFORT, they could do it again at least on the Water Level Route. Is there a market? See the NYT article several years back about airline pricing in the Rochester-Chicago market. Cheaper to London than Chicago. THAT is why we invented regulation over a century ago. Now thanks to the ignorant and bought morons in the Congress we are back to pricing with NO relation to actual cost of transportation. Anyone who believes the cost of fuel, equipment, on and off board staff is lower from Rochester to London than Rochester to Chicago, please buy stock in the Enron Bridge Trading organization--they have a deal on bridges linking Brooklyn to Manhattan, including special pricing for the tracks (but you have to maintain them).
>>> Adding the cost of a sleeper is no more than adding the cost of an average to good hotel room in NYC. <<<
You have to be a railfan (or smoking a water pipe) to favorably compare a rolling postage stamp sized sleeping compartment to a stationary large hotel room. Overnight on a train will never be preferred to a three hour flight by a significant number of business travelers who may want to socialize with business associates in the destination city, or just have a stationary bed and a hot shower in the morning.
Tom
America should remember itself to be a country with a national economy and national interest before considering private individuals' or corporations' economies or interests.
America should remember itself to be a country with a national economy and national interest before considering private individuals' or corporations' economies or interests.
America's national interest is generally considered to be the sum of its citizens' economies or interests. This is good, since there tend to be fewer central planning schemes imposed from on high that devastate the lives of the few for the needs of the many.
This is also bad; it discourages planning, zoning and coordinated regional development. Along with the huge size of the USA cited elsewhere in the thread, this has produced a century of urban sprawl. The downside of sprawl is now starting to filter into public awareness. Notions of increasing building density near train stations by creating "transit villages" (cf. NJ Transit) are the first glimmers of understanding that short- and medium-distance rail has a valid, viable and appropriate place in the 21st century USA.
That said, eternal subsidies for long-distance rail routes on freight lines are absurd. Those lines will never -- NEVER! -- pay their way even on an operating basis. Let us focus on the short- and medium-term stuff, funded with a blend of local, state and federal $$$.
Those lines will never -- NEVER! -- pay their way even on an operating basis.
They probably would if rail were invested in at a much higher rate than road for about 20 years. That would include replacement of expressways with railways until it is both intolerable to drive and massively efficient to use the train. However, u-turns like that do not happen - it costs too much to change your mind and, in a republic, if a result doesn't show within 4 years, you've had it!
You know, one interesting thing I found out, in a book called "Suburban Nation" (Urban Planning - anti-sprawl book) is that in instances where highways were eliminated, and it gave the example of the old elevated lower portion of the West Side Highway and the Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco after the 1989 earthquake, the traffic that used to travel those roads didn't show up anywhere else after they were destroyed. In other words, many people simply stopped driving!
And in cases where roads were widened and laned added and interchanges were rebuilt in an attempt to "alleviate" traffic congestion, the traffic only got worse.
You'd think people would pick up on these things ...
My parents, who live in Raleigh, NC, are convinced that a new bypass expressway through their back yard is going to solve all their traffic ills.
I agree with the points you raise... Continuiously building more highways is like trying to solve obesity by buying larger pants. But try telling that to the people who have a vested financial/political/idealogical interest in paving over every patch of earth they can find.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"Those lines will never -- NEVER! -- pay their way even on an operating basis."
Neither will the short-distance corridor trains. The fast frequent and well-used European train systems all operate with billions of dollars (Euros, pounds, whatever) from the respective national treasuries. If they can't make a profit, neither will the NEC or any other corridor in the U.S..
My feeling -- for both the corridor and long-distance trains -- is "so what?" The highways don't make a profit, and neither does urban transit, but they are both necessities. The trains should be run on an efficient basis, but with the recognition that a good rail system needs billions in capital and millions to cover the difference between fare and advertising revenues and operating expenses.
slightly off topic (excuse me please) to hell with em !! let them pull themselves up by thier own BOOTSTRAPS ...!!!
Like they tell the recievers of social programs to do & or like this
silly assed idiot idea to force reciepents of social all programs to invest- gamble, in CORPORATE WELFARE like ENRON or the stock market & loose everything !!
So i do not beleive amtrak should go down, what if the airlines do go down & only GREYHOUND is the way to go ?? I do not think so !!
.....lol...!!
I think that the real problem is that Amtrak never learned how to play the capitalism game ... and especially lacking in ability to play "Enron capitalism" which would have solved everything. For other transit authorites and rail institutions in need of Special High Internsity Training in fiscal affairs, here's how it's SUPPOSED to work:
Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Your herd
multiplies, and the economy grows. You sell them and retire on the
income.
Enron Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed
company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at
the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general
offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for
five cows. The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an
intermediary to a Cayman Island company secretly owned by your CFO
who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on
six more. Now do you see why a company with $62 billion in assets is
declaring bankruptcy?
Let's just give Amtrak some money and be that much further ahead of the game ...
very nice, you forgot free dairy supplies for the legislators and bonuses for the auditors (cheese?)
Oooo ... but that would constitute the "appearance of a conflict of interest" and require special prosecutors. We don't wanna go there. :)
mind you I am not afraid to fly--its just greyhound on meth. great when a relative is dying, and home of the most fraudulent bait and switch fare policies since the 1880's RRs.
You're right that we should not aid the airlines since the quality of service has deteriorated in recent years. Ask anyone who flies regularly and most will tell you that the experience is often less than satisfying. Even if you could stand flying, would you be able to stand the constant delays, crowded airports, lost luggage and all of the other aggravations of air travel. It would perhaps be far less expensive to provide decent nationwide passenger rail service than it would to keep the airlines flying.
#3 West End Jeff
Where did this article come from?
Did you compose it yourself?
Is it not customary to give credit to the author of an article when you copy it word for word?
Everyone on SubTalk should be recognizant of the fact that is it not ethical, and it illegal, to reproduce writings without giving credit to the original author or publication.
When we practice this, it is the same as stealing, and it’s called plagiarism.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
Socialized railroads, socialized post office, socialized medicine, etc, ect, etc. Is there ever any conclusion to a socialized sector of the economy other than failure....bailout...failure....bailout?
I am a Libertarian and socialism proves itself again and again. I do not need a railroad, but I do need medical help when I am sick and when I get old. I hope I never see the day, when I am compelled to go to a doctor who works for the federal government. Just look at the VA system or any socialized medicine country such as Canada.
Amtrak should sink or swim on its own. It should now be privatized and open to competition similar to long distance telephone. If not, well too bad; bye, bye railroad. I do pay taxes, and I do not want to pay for this dog anymore.
Why should we pay for highways? Or airports? Hell ... let Boeing and General Motors build their own. I'm all for chopping up Amtrak and scrapping it ... AFTER the roads and runways have been torn up first. That would be a level playing field ...
>>> Just look at the VA system <<<
Which in my opinion works very well. Don't knock it if you haven't used it. The medical delivery system in this country is an embarrassment to anyone who considers this an advanced society.
Tom
Socialized railroads, socialized post office, socialized medicine, etc, ect, etc. Is there ever any conclusion to a socialized sector of the economy other than failure....bailout...failure....bailout?
Yeah, thank God we have private companies like the airlines to get us around, and Enron to give us energy, and savings & loan companies to safeguard our money, all without ever relying on any government subsidies or bailouts.
-- David
Chicago, IL
nicely said, David
a libertarian eh. well don't you dare ride the socialist subways of this planet! The unique profit making subway is the Hong Kong system.
Don't like socialism eh, STOP using the socialist streets and highways, don't call the police, and don't even think about a Fire Department. Read some Donne "No man is an island..."
As to taxes, I'll trade you, you pay for the Enron employee retirement bailout, I'll pay for Atk.
>>> you pay for the Enron employee retirement bailout <<<
Those employees just have to understand that they are collateral damage in our great capitalist system. But when they take the money away from a person's mother in law, it is time someone should be put in jail. :-)
Tom
ok how bout then the airline industry SINKING .....
being dumped into the ocean like the " birds " eh ????
lol!!
What planet are you living on? The Government is bailing out the airlines in the Wake of massive losses due to 9/11.
"Billions for the airlines, but not one cent for Amtrak"
I would like to answer your question please..... EARTH !!!!!!
No i did not agree with the government bailing out the airlines in the wake of 911 at all! & the airlines did not pass
thier taxpayer paid CORPORATE WELFARE to thier workers & lower air fares...( hope this setteles this up )
Now i do not object to amtrak geting help to stay in operation even if i wish they would get thier ACT together
& big time !! So maybe we are not so much in dissagreement after all .............................sigh............
Anyway i aint going to fly on any plane for a long , long time !!! aint that da' truth !!!!
Where did this article come from? Did you compose it yourself?
The article appears to be professionally written, thus is probably covered by a copywright.
It is customary to give credit to the author of an article, and the publication it which it appeared, when you copy it word for word.
Everyone on SubTalk should be recognizant of the fact that is it not ethical, and it illegal, to reproduce writings without giving credit to the original author or publication.
When we practice this, it is the same as stealing, and it’s called plagiarism.
When you practice this, you never know who is reading it, and what their connection is to the article. Be safe, protect yourself, and give credit to those who did the grunt work to produce the article.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
downloaded from a news source..
i just wanted to know what eastcoasters thought about it ...
plagiarism.?....please !!! it was for more information........... geeezzz!!!
That isn't the point of the article. It is saying the acency will need to be restructured if it is to be profitable, I can't see why Amtrak would be eliminated in whole.
except for the HIGH prices.. COLD trains in the winter man a real bummer ....NO HEAT AT ALL....!!!
man that teeeeeed me off big time ....
lol!
The Northeast Corridor is a critical resource for the region. It should have dedicated funding sources which are not suject to diversion for other means.
Notice how that insane "self sufficiency" mandate caused Amtrak to invest in short term projects that had little or no long-run value. Way to go Washington.
Amtrak dug their own grave. There's not vast conspiracyto kill them, just bad management.
No management can make large scale passenger rail transport profitable. Those in high places will not stop until they have everybody in a car.
Exactly what they did in los angeles....
the pe & lary...gone .....
Phil, your vast expertise obviously humble everyone into submission. Way to go, Phil.
Terry Kennedy has been providing some excellent information on variuos unused and neverused tunnels on the PATH System.
Here is some information on various opening and closing dates.
2/25/08 19 Street-Hoboken
6/15/08 19 Street-23 Street
8/15/08 9 Street Station opens.
7/19/09 Hudson Terminal-Exchange Place
8/2/09 Exchange Place to Hoboken
9/20/09 Exchange Place to Christopher Street
9/6/10 Exchange Place-Grove Street
11/10/10 Henderson Street Yard opens, 23 Street-33 Street(orginal)
10/1/11 Grove Street-Manhattan Transfer
11/26/11 Manhattan Transfer to Park Place Newark
4/14/12 Summit Avenue Station opens (now called Journal Square)
6/30/29 New Journal Square Station opens.
6/20/37 Rerouted to Pennsylvania Station Newark.
9/24/39 Service re-extended to new station at 33 Street.
7/6/71 World Trade Center Station opens
10/14/90 Harrison Yard opens.
Closings:
6/20/37 Park Place Newark,old Harrison and Manhattan Transfer
12/26/37 old 33 Street
9/24/39 28 Street closed
8/1/54 19 Street Closed
7/2/71 Hudson Terminal
10/14/90 Henderson Street Yard.
9/11/01 Service between Pavonia/Grove Street and World Trade Center temporarily suspended. Exchange Place and World Trade Center closed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, thanks for the summary!!!
David: Your welcome.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Here are posters for some of the dates you posted (I'll have to fish out the rest at some point):
7/6/71 World Trade Center Station opens
12/26/37 old 33 Street
Hmmm is this where I mention how much money per passenger mile is spent by the US government in relative terms. It is one third of that spent in Britain, one sixth of that in France and one tenth of that in Germany. In fact the British are the second worst on Earth at investment in rail. Go figure.
While European nations have sumptuous passenger rail systems compared to the US, one needs to look at how small each of these European nations are in comparison to the US. New York - New Orleans is like London to Moscow. New York to San Francisco is like London to Tehran.
For international intra-European routes, until relatively recently, the European governments kept airline fares sky-high (combined with huge subsides to their national carriers), which made the cost of going by train quite competative.
Subsidized long haul runs of this sort in the US serve no one except us railfans. It's the shorter haul inter-urban runs that need serious support-- NYC to Washington or Boston and the such.
Eliminating long haul trains will put us at the mercy of the Airlines. The whole air travel system does nothing but re-enforce the energy guzzling system in this country.
Eliminating long haul trains will put us at the mercy of the Airlines.
Uh, no ... there are, and will continue to be, lower-cost alternatives in the form of long-distance BUS services. No, they're not very appealing. But they ARE and will continue to be a slower and cheaper alternative to flying within the 48 states. And they go a whole lot more places than airlines do.
>>> But they ARE and will continue to be a slower and cheaper alternative to flying within the 48 states <<<
And unfortunately in most of the United States, the buses are a faster and cheaper alternative to train travel.
Tom
If you are going to take a Bus, you might as well drive. The only people who takes busses are the poor, the very poor and college students.
While European nations have sumptuous passenger rail systems compared to the US,
Yes, the best thing about them is the Belgian sleeper trains :)
one needs to look at how small each of these European nations are in comparison to the US. New York - New Orleans is like London to Moscow. New York to San Francisco is like London to Tehran.
Believe it or not, you at least used to be able to book a rail ticket from London Victoria to Moscow. Train to Dover, boat to Ostend then a sleeper train all the way to Moscow, with a break at the change of gague.
For international intra-European routes, until relatively recently, the European governments kept airline fares sky-high (combined with huge subsides to their national carriers), which made the cost of going by train quite competative.
Wrong!!! Subsidies made things cheaper. Now we have stopped subsidising British Airways, fares have rocketed, seats have become smaller and closer together and the airports still take ages to get to in poxy local trains. Despite the extortionate fares on Eurostar, train travel is still much cheaper. Oh and you can add £200 ($300) more to any air fare from an airport other than London Gatwick or Heathrow.
Subsidized long haul runs of this sort in the US serve no one except us railfans. It's the shorter haul inter-urban runs that need serious support-- NYC to Washington or Boston and the such.
That puzzles me. JFK is about as far from Manhattan as Heathrow is from the City of London, probably further. Is there something about American airports which makes it possible not to spend half a day there waiting? Are American aeroplanes more spacious? Do they have berths for long distance travel? Are there no sleeper trains? And is there no local service on the long haul runs for all the small towns along the way? They must be mighty cut off or you will have a hell of a lot of airports.
The Axis Allies learned how to MAKE TRAINS GO.
British James:
A train trip from the Cliffs of Dover to John O'Groats would be about a trip from Boston to Washington. The train system of the Island of Great Britain is quite equivalent to our NEC, and all considered, GB has much better train service. You're not here, James; you really don't know how bad it is.
As a matter of common knowledge, all Europeans know the United States is a huge country, considerably larger than their individual countries, each country being comparable to one US state. Us Americans know this too, as a matter of common knowledge. But most Americans forget just how huge our nation is, and most Europeans forget how small their nations are in comparison. In Europe, you can drive thru six countries in six hours (start in France and end up in Sweden via the Oresund link) (you use freeways/expressways/autobahns, doing the limit in non-rush hours). Here in the US, you are still in New York State (you start driving from Tottenville, get on the expressway and go almost nonstop to the Quebec border, starting at such time that you avoid any rush hour traffic).
Yeah, but Germany alone has 10 times as much electrified trackage as the US.
Size isn't the only issue here
I disagree about the airfares you quoted. Air travel within Europe to and from the UK has never been cheaper. The rise of the budget carriers has seen air fares tumble to the point where it is considerably cheaper to fly. To quote an example, Luton to Glasgow return (I travelled last week on business) booked the day before travel, £73.00 ($100.00). I met up with our web site host in the summer, Luton to Barcelona £70.00 return. Now, you can argue that a full fare booked on a national carrier costs more than a ticket to the US, but only people with large expense accounts do that. A year or so ago I went to Munich and it cost £400.00 If I had travled with a budget airline I could have gone for £80.00.
Simon
Swindon UK
"Subsidized long haul runs of this sort in the US serve no one except us railfans."
I vehemently disagree.
1) Even though I live in Chicago, I also realize that between the large cities there are a few million people living in small towns and rural areas. In such places, the airlines are not a realistic alternative. Look at the Empire Builder -- it serves no city of any significance between Fargo and Spokane. Yet a big chunk of its ridership comes in the "open spaces" between those cities, as many people in the small towns and villages along the line use it for bread and butter basic travel, especially in the winter when the roads become treacherous for autos and buses. Some of the stops in rural areas have more people boarding in a year than the population of the county where the station is located.
2) I have used Amtrak long distance trains for business travel, from Chicago to Washington DC (twice) and from Chicago to New Orleans. The trains were well-traveled, by all sorts of people from college students to elderly couples. I never met a railfan on any of these trips, saw nobody with a scanner or a railfan book. The people I spoke with* were either traveling by train in the manner of a cruise or were using the train as basic transportation to get to college, family reunions, weddings, etcetera.
3) Subsidized?
(a) Do you really think the short-distance trains (which I also support wholeheartedly -- we need more in the Midwest) are profitable? No! They are subsidized just as much as the long distance trains -- more so since there are simply more of them compared with the once-a-day long-distance trains.\
(b) The highways are subsidized as well. When was the last time a Senator demanded a profit/loss statement from the Federal Highway Administration?
(c) Even though the individual airlines are allegedly profit-making enterprises, the aviation system has been ENORMOUSLY subsidized. Warren Buffett, the venture capitalist, pointed out when asked about investing in airlines that the aviation industry had not made an overall profit from the Wright Brothers to that day (mid-1990s, IIRC).
*One of the nice things about traveling by train is that people actually TALK with each other and socialize, mostly in the lounge car and at meals in the dining car. It's not like airplanes, which are like enormous elevators in that people are reluctant to converse beyond asking the person next to them to let them out to go to the washroom.
I couldn't agree more with your points. I had very similar observations on the Capitol Limited to/from Washington, DC. And I agree that all passenger rail -- even the long-distance routes -- needs to be looked at as a vital but neglected form of infrastructure, rather than a profit-making enterprise.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Were we to make the massive investment in high speed rail lines (a la the French TGV), the time equation changes substantially. If you could get from NY Penn to Chicago in five hours, then you are competing with and in many instances beating the airlines.
MagLev is still a ways off, but this would potentially wipe out the airlines for many runs.
For most of us, tho', who are distant from rail passenger lines, travel by air is the only option. For business travellers, an all-day rail trip makes little sense, especially if going by air lets you be back home in your own bed the same day.
NYC and the NEC will likely see the first substantial re-investment in rail travel, but not until LGA, JFK and NWR get beyond the merely intolerable.
What about high speed rail service along the interstate highways?
I don't know about the rest of the country, but the western New Jersey portions of I-80, I-78, I-287, etc have very wide medians, and I read in another book (about secret government bases, mind you) that the interstates were in fact built like this so that rail lines may be added if desired.
I'd be a nice change in pace to have high speed trains running along the Interstates as opposed to gobbling up the medians with more traffic lanes. The trains could be Acela-type trains operating at an average of 150-200 MPH and make limited stops along the way, say at major rest areas, interchanges (both of which could also have park-and-ride facilities and serve as junction points for connecting bus or even other rail service), and of course, cities and towns along the way.
Not only that, but with the interstate/high-speed rail corridors, the "regular" rail lines can be preserved and maintained as a supplement (to serve all the little dots on the map) and also for the tourist-sightseeing-railfan group.
Here is a list of the emrgency subway and PATH maps issued after September 11,2001. If any one has additional information please let me know.
9/19/01- Single sheet version,printing on one side only 11'x15'.
9/19/01- Full size version of "The Map." Red triangle in upper right hand corner "Revised Service Effective 9/19/01
10/1/01-Single sheet version,IRT Chambers Street re-opens.
10/28/01-Single sheet version,N and R return to Lower Broadway
December 2001- Regular version of "The Map"
December 2001- Multi-language version of "The Map."
PATH:
10/12/01 PATH Map and Guide
12/02/01 PATH Map and Guide
12/02/01 PATH Timetable
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry, That info is exactly what I wanted to know about the many different maps.
Were any of them printed in just black and white?
Karl: To the best of my knowledge no. The ones that I have are all in full color.
Larry,RedbirdR33
See this site. Todd Glickman has a page for all maps issued since 9/11 and many from before That date.
Thats transit maps and weather together!
You're right on the rails, Subway-Buff.
Here's the link.
The small 9/19 map was printed in both color and B&W.
10/28/01-Single sheet version,N and R return to Lower Broadway
And, as a reminder, the Transit Museum Store in Grand Central still had a handful of these available 2 weeks ago ... in the rack built into the wall to the right of the door as you walk in.
Larry missed the two 9/17 maps, one grey-tone and one colour.
Both 9/17 and 9/19 were issued in colour and grey-tone. I believe the 10/1 and 10/28 were colour only. Anyone see grey-tone versions of those editions?
Todd's list is great, but currently missing the colour 9/17 map and the 10/1.
Two other maps that might be added are the 'Getting around Downtown', a mix of subway map and street map. Issue dates 12/1/2001 and 1/18/2002. Both have been on eBay.
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jeez more retro Soviet reporting on ATK.
PASSENGER transport is a mark of advanced civilization. It facillitates civilian travel for both business and pleasure. This is why nations build infrastructures. The mix between air, water, rail, auto, is a political dispute. Cloaking one's personal preferences in claims of "profit" is simply ludicrous in view of massive gov't spending in various modes--AIR BUS is a government aided consortium.. Boeing lives off Fed monies and the US Govt as a secondary foreign sales team. The Interstate Highway system was NOT paid for solely by drivers, nor is upkeep.
If I as a citizen--one person one vote--want long distance rail service, my vote is just as valid as someone else's for more airline subsidies. I would prefer to see most of the US carriers go belly and be liquidated. Air travel should be a rare and much more expensive mode of travel. High speed rail lines can replace most hub/spoke services as a far better option.
AS to ATK's management skills, try running a company with 535 'bosses' with diametrically opposed orders and nowhere near enough money to satisfy ant of them except the shut it down bozos like McCain.
Well said. I sure wish that we'd have national and intra-national high speed systems like Europe. I'm afraid to fly, you'll never get me on a plane. I'd much rather travel by TRAIN.
We should not aid the airlines, and instead the money should be spent on improving Amtrak.
Money going to the airlines is corporate welfare. Lots of people are employed by the airlines. You and I can live without airplanes, but corporate America can't.
NO, corporate america can, it just means fewer one day trips for a meeting which can now be done on the net with much less wasted resources. If the bean counters ever figure this out, the airlines are toast.
The bean counters are already figuring that out. Corporate travel budgets have been cut to ribbons.
Speaking of the Internet and travel -- I read an article on Friday that caculated with the current added delays at airports after 9/11, it's actually faster to take a train than to fly for any trip of about 360 miles or less, including travel time to and from airports/train stations (car trips of about 540 miles or less are faster than planes under the same calculation).
If the current airport delays continue long enough so they are considered a permanent part of the travel experience and the above calculations prove to be accurate, business travelers will pick up on this pretty quickly, and you will see increases in rail traffic on medium-range runs where it's available and you might even see rail lines being added where there are major metropolitan areas within that 360-mile range (basically the Northeast corridor from Washington to Boston, the Upper Midwest between Cleveland and Minneapolis, the California coastal cities, the Orlando-Tampa Miami Florida triangle and the Dallas/Fort Worth-Houston-San Antonio Texas triangle).
right, but the NEC is not the argument. HSR if well done could provide for most non transcontinenta; runs. The vital part of the present debate is the perrenial attmpt by people like Sen. McCain to eliminate all long distance service. My point is that the market for such travel exists, it is only a matter of choosing whether to serve it as national policy. I resent every damn dime spent on many aspectsof the Fed budget, BUT courtesy ofthe democratic (and highly corrupted by bribery) process these monies are voted on. I believe it is as justifiable to spend money on passenger trains as on air lines. NONE of them would survive this year without the BILLIONS in both open and hidden sbsidies, which they get. Free market? book yourself on a POabAm clipper.
McCain is guided in part I think by the Arizona mentality -- Amtrak doesn't even stop in Phoenix now due to the topographical layout of the southeastern part of the state, so it has no constituency with him or his main voter base (the southern line runs through Tucson and Yuma and the northern line through Kingman and Flagstaff). But as the Phoenix suburb of Chandler expands towards the south, Amtrak is planning to build a station in Maricopa, about 30 miles south of dotnwtown Phoenix, which would make a Phoenix-Los Angeles trip about 7 1/2 hours door-to-door.
In the pre-9/11 days, there's no way that would have been competative with a Southwest flight from LAX to Sky Harbor, but with the security restructions and excessive bag checks, that option may not seem as bad and McCain might get off the back of the long distance passenger rail service if some of his voters discovered it as an option.
New York to Chicago *is* a very viable rail route. Trains leaving NYC at 4:30 in the evening arrive in Chicago in time for the business day. Adding the cost of a sleeper is no more than adding the cost of an average to good hotel room in NYC.
You arrive in Chitown refreshed and ready for your day of business.
It is not that difficult a proposition, you know, they did it with STEAM ENGINES 50 YEARS AGO!
Elias
But for the "I wanna sleep in my own room/my hotel bed that night" crowd, the distace between N.Y. and Chicago is still slightly beyond the range where from door-to-door (or door-to-hotel) the train is faster than the airplane, due to all the post-9/11 security delays. A plane-train comparison between New York and Cleveland would be closer to the calculated limit, and of course, the Washington Post has already done plane-train-bus-car comparisons between NYC and D.C. in the past (the plane won pre-9/11, post-9/11 I think the car won and the plane and train were just about tied).
no the steam engines were gone by 1948, but the 16 hr schedule dates to over one hundred years ago. The B'way Ltd and 20th Century Ltd were precisely trains for the business travelers, complete with barbers to shave them as they were nearing arrival. If ATK could INSIST on cooperation from CSX and NS AND MADE THE EFFORT, they could do it again at least on the Water Level Route. Is there a market? See the NYT article several years back about airline pricing in the Rochester-Chicago market. Cheaper to London than Chicago. THAT is why we invented regulation over a century ago. Now thanks to the ignorant and bought morons in the Congress we are back to pricing with NO relation to actual cost of transportation. Anyone who believes the cost of fuel, equipment, on and off board staff is lower from Rochester to London than Rochester to Chicago, please buy stock in the Enron Bridge Trading organization--they have a deal on bridges linking Brooklyn to Manhattan, including special pricing for the tracks (but you have to maintain them).
>>> Adding the cost of a sleeper is no more than adding the cost of an average to good hotel room in NYC. <<<
You have to be a railfan (or smoking a water pipe) to favorably compare a rolling postage stamp sized sleeping compartment to a stationary large hotel room. Overnight on a train will never be preferred to a three hour flight by a significant number of business travelers who may want to socialize with business associates in the destination city, or just have a stationary bed and a hot shower in the morning.
Tom
America should remember itself to be a country with a national economy and national interest before considering private individuals' or corporations' economies or interests.
America should remember itself to be a country with a national economy and national interest before considering private individuals' or corporations' economies or interests.
America's national interest is generally considered to be the sum of its citizens' economies or interests. This is good, since there tend to be fewer central planning schemes imposed from on high that devastate the lives of the few for the needs of the many.
This is also bad; it discourages planning, zoning and coordinated regional development. Along with the huge size of the USA cited elsewhere in the thread, this has produced a century of urban sprawl. The downside of sprawl is now starting to filter into public awareness. Notions of increasing building density near train stations by creating "transit villages" (cf. NJ Transit) are the first glimmers of understanding that short- and medium-distance rail has a valid, viable and appropriate place in the 21st century USA.
That said, eternal subsidies for long-distance rail routes on freight lines are absurd. Those lines will never -- NEVER! -- pay their way even on an operating basis. Let us focus on the short- and medium-term stuff, funded with a blend of local, state and federal $$$.
Those lines will never -- NEVER! -- pay their way even on an operating basis.
They probably would if rail were invested in at a much higher rate than road for about 20 years. That would include replacement of expressways with railways until it is both intolerable to drive and massively efficient to use the train. However, u-turns like that do not happen - it costs too much to change your mind and, in a republic, if a result doesn't show within 4 years, you've had it!
You know, one interesting thing I found out, in a book called "Suburban Nation" (Urban Planning - anti-sprawl book) is that in instances where highways were eliminated, and it gave the example of the old elevated lower portion of the West Side Highway and the Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco after the 1989 earthquake, the traffic that used to travel those roads didn't show up anywhere else after they were destroyed. In other words, many people simply stopped driving!
And in cases where roads were widened and laned added and interchanges were rebuilt in an attempt to "alleviate" traffic congestion, the traffic only got worse.
You'd think people would pick up on these things ...
My parents, who live in Raleigh, NC, are convinced that a new bypass expressway through their back yard is going to solve all their traffic ills.
I agree with the points you raise... Continuiously building more highways is like trying to solve obesity by buying larger pants. But try telling that to the people who have a vested financial/political/idealogical interest in paving over every patch of earth they can find.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"Those lines will never -- NEVER! -- pay their way even on an operating basis."
Neither will the short-distance corridor trains. The fast frequent and well-used European train systems all operate with billions of dollars (Euros, pounds, whatever) from the respective national treasuries. If they can't make a profit, neither will the NEC or any other corridor in the U.S..
My feeling -- for both the corridor and long-distance trains -- is "so what?" The highways don't make a profit, and neither does urban transit, but they are both necessities. The trains should be run on an efficient basis, but with the recognition that a good rail system needs billions in capital and millions to cover the difference between fare and advertising revenues and operating expenses.
slightly off topic (excuse me please) to hell with em !! let them pull themselves up by thier own BOOTSTRAPS ...!!!
Like they tell the recievers of social programs to do & or like this
silly assed idiot idea to force reciepents of social all programs to invest- gamble, in CORPORATE WELFARE like ENRON or the stock market & loose everything !!
So i do not beleive amtrak should go down, what if the airlines do go down & only GREYHOUND is the way to go ?? I do not think so !!
.....lol...!!
I think that the real problem is that Amtrak never learned how to play the capitalism game ... and especially lacking in ability to play "Enron capitalism" which would have solved everything. For other transit authorites and rail institutions in need of Special High Internsity Training in fiscal affairs, here's how it's SUPPOSED to work:
Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Your herd
multiplies, and the economy grows. You sell them and retire on the
income.
Enron Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed
company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at
the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general
offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for
five cows. The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an
intermediary to a Cayman Island company secretly owned by your CFO
who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on
six more. Now do you see why a company with $62 billion in assets is
declaring bankruptcy?
Let's just give Amtrak some money and be that much further ahead of the game ...
very nice, you forgot free dairy supplies for the legislators and bonuses for the auditors (cheese?)
Oooo ... but that would constitute the "appearance of a conflict of interest" and require special prosecutors. We don't wanna go there. :)
mind you I am not afraid to fly--its just greyhound on meth. great when a relative is dying, and home of the most fraudulent bait and switch fare policies since the 1880's RRs.
You're right that we should not aid the airlines since the quality of service has deteriorated in recent years. Ask anyone who flies regularly and most will tell you that the experience is often less than satisfying. Even if you could stand flying, would you be able to stand the constant delays, crowded airports, lost luggage and all of the other aggravations of air travel. It would perhaps be far less expensive to provide decent nationwide passenger rail service than it would to keep the airlines flying.
#3 West End Jeff
Please point your browsers to www.subtalklive.com to join in tonight's chat.
I hope it's not the final word. That would be rather depressing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/27/nyregion/27TROL.html
Its all in God's hands now- lets pray for a miracle, and see what happens next.
Alot of folks read the New York Times sunday Metro section.
Bob D.
This is true. Let's hope you can one day, take that PCC out which you are pictured in.
The paper has a picture of the maintenance shop with one the PCC # 3303 along with #3. The NY Times should have posted that picture on their website also.
Best of luck Bob.
Paul
I froze my ass off when I went out after the last snowstorm to photograph some MBTA action. The time was between 10 and 11am. I couldn't stand out there for very long!
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/mbta/ -- new MBTA pictures
Nice pictures, Lexcie, but if you think that it was cold then, you haven't been living in Boston long enough yet! Just wait...
When you guys take pictures, do you ever worry about blinding the T/O?
Flash photography is in general a no-no. You won't have to worry about if you're polite enough not to do it.
Flash photography anywhere is really a no-no. Despite which, the typical flash on a PhD camera isn't worth the plastic it's made of. They're great for getting crappy snapshots of kids, and not much more. They can't illuminate anything anyway.
I avoid the use of flashes with everything - at home, I use a 1000W movie flood when taking my TV/jukebox pics. And 400 speed film, though if I want super detail, I use 100.
Anyway, out in real life, flashes are useless. I don't even know why PhD cameras have them.
I always have the flash off whenever taking subway pictures.
So how do you take night pictures or pictures where it's dark? When you take pictures of the front of the trian, you make sure that the light on the camera doesn't come on at all?
Well, a flash isn't going to do a d*n thing for night photography. But yeah, you make sure the flash isn't on at all. Digital cameras nowadays don't need it anyway.
Thanks, I could imagine what would happen if I blinded a TO. :D
On London Transport stations and in the Channel Tunnel car trains flash photography is banned. I heard somewhere that it can damage the CCTV. Anyone know if this is true ?
Simon
Swinon UK
Here in Wash DC you always have some non-urban tourist who always use a flash in the subway, shooting at the front of the train. If the TO was in manual mode, he can miss his car marker. A rear end shot is just as good.
If you have to shoot, let the motorman see you first and he knows that you will be shooting at him, that way he can duck.
Here in DC, we have leeway when we stop the trains. He's got 75 feet to go after the 6 car marker, worse case scenario will be that the T/O has to actually get up to hit the door open button.
That's another thing I was wondering. If you're taking a picture of the front of the train and the T/O sees you, will he try to get out of the way anyway without knowing whether or not the picture-taker has his/her flash on?
I usually wait for his train to open up the doors, get his attention, point at flash, and get an OK. Usually if there is another fan around, one of us would walk to the cab and warn him.
But then I talking about 1970's
From past experience, I ALWAYS assume the flash is ON and will attempt to duck if I see you with a camera. Once I've stopped, I don't mind the flash. The worst experience was the 'group' flash, with about 10 flashes going off at once while I was entering South Ferry. I placed the train into emergency about 10 feet shy of the stop marker because I couldn't see. I was actually surprise that the people on the train let the idiots on the platform keep their cameras.
That's why they should get rid of the curve sprayer and greasers there. The tourists will be so busy covering their ears they won't be able to take the photo.
only if the train is un manned do i use the flash ..
( no operator )
Check out my web site for new photos
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
Also check the links section for my other groups on streetlights and Long Island!
Does anyone have the date of the last Saturday rush hour? I think it was around 1952, but can't find any reference to it in various sources I've looked at. And I am fairly sure the Board of Transportation dropped it, but could be wrong.
(It was morning only--there was no Saturday afternoon rush hour.)
Thanks,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Does anyone have the date of the last Saturday rush hour? I think it was around 1952, but can't find any reference to it in various sources I've looked at. And I am fairly sure the Board of Transportation dropped it, but could be wrong.
(It was morning only--there was no Saturday afternoon rush hour.)
Thanks,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Sorry about the double post. Cat on the keyboard.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I've seen documents somewhere where they still consider there to be a Saturday rush hour. It's just a period of the morning when alot of people are traveling to Manhattan. Headways may be decreased a bit for this, but of course, no weekday type additional service is added. (that was gradually phased out in the 50's).
I was wondering, when we finally get the 2nd Avenue Subway, what color will it be? Will it be part of the Green Line (Lexington Ave.)? All the major colors already have lines....Orange=6th Ave, Red=7th Ave, Yellow=Broadway, Blue=8th Ave, Orange=6th Ave...etc...
Let's see it built first!
It'll likely be green and orange stripes
Well, assuming that the northern part is built first - almost inevitable because some sections were done in the '70s and all the planning of the last five years was on that part - it will start off as yellow (if a Broadway route is extended) or orange (if a 6th Avenue route is used). When the full line is open, the additional, all 2nd Avenue route could be - maybe light blue, as used on the E train in the '60s - '70s?
Maybe in 2015 we'll know.
I'd say yellow and brown, if they connect it to the BMT Broadway and Nassau Street lines as they should.
I'd say yellow and brown, if they connect it to the BMT Broadway and Nassau Street lines as they should.
Or maybe that half yellow half beigey kinda colour you used to get on 16 colour monitors (R127, G127, B0)
Do you mean light blue as in JFK train?
I think that's what he means; although they could go with the lighter shade of blue they used to use for the #3, #8, "E", "M" and "NX" trains.
The mockup in the Transit Museum shows the letter "Y" used with a light blue bullet.
wayne
What mock-up was this? Was it some kind of map that showed the route with a light blue Y bullet or a model of a station? I visited the transit museum not too long before it closed and I don't recall seeing anything related to the 2nd Avenue Subway.
I did mean the blue used by the E, M, 8, etc. It would be light enough to be distinct from the 8th Avenue blue now in use.
I probably wouldn't use the Nassau Street brown, even if that route is used on the lower end. The brown seems most associated with the Williamsburg Bridge routes; Second Avenue, as a Manhattan main line, needs its own color.
"It's a "Y"!!!!!!!"
*stomping on ground angrily*
"YOGURT!!!!!!!!!! YOGURT!!!!!!! I HAATE YOGURT!!!!!!!!! EVEN WITH STRAWBERRIES!!"
(Spaceballs :-D)
Stuart, RLine86Man
"SGT Asshole sir, The Radars have been jammed"
"what type"
"Raspberry"
No polka dots?
:0)
Submit your idea at the next MTA Board Meeting and they might do that!
The line already exists--it is done in invisible ink with invisible stations :-)
It'll be a tossup between ultraviolet and infrared.
Good Answer!
>>>It'll be a tossup between ultraviolet and infrared. <<<
Appropriate, since those are two colors that cannot be seen by human eyes. The 2nd Avenue will never be seen by human eyes, either...
www.forgotten-ny.com
You made a funny!
Cool, as both are invisible. So every existing subway map may show the line running!
All the color means is the way it is shown on a map. The important thing it to get the 2nd Ave subway build and running.
In that case either yellow or orange. Now let the line be built!
Whatever color you imagine it to be, as it will never exist anywhere but in our minds.
Um..I was thinking Stainless Steel.
(We are taliking about the trains, right??)
:-)
It would make sense to use a color not currently used for any of the trunk lines. My guess would be magenta, the old bullet color of the (AA), (F) etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think magenta got snapped up yb the Flushing line ... the old robin's egg blue from the E is probably available, but why not WHITE with colored letters? It'd confuse a cat ...
I thought Flushing was purple. But why not use brown for 2nd Avenue if it's going to be connected to the Nassau Street line (like I think it should)? If they do the Water Street route, only then should they go with the sky blue used on the (E), (M), (NX), (3), (8), 42nd Street (SS) and (JFK Express) trains for the 2nd Avenue line's color. Sky blue would be better, because magenta looks too much like pruple and red. Sky blue looks distinctive from the darker blue used on the (A), (C) and (E) trains.
Once upon a time, the E *was* that color ... then they decided to make multiple lines all the SAME color based on what avenue they ran on ... but in the greater scheme of things, until that puppy's actually BUILT, I'd go for "invisible" for now. :)
Or better yet - white.
Said that already ... gotta drop in here more often. Heh. After all, a white destination sign with NO lettering was "de rigeuer" once upon a time, might as well make "no route" official. :)
Hmmmm, PC idiocy may have reached such a ridiculous limit by the time the line is built that the color white might be said to offend people of color.
*lmfao*
I think the color "bleen" has been reserved for the 2nd Ave. line. This color only exists in artifically created magnetic bottles in the labratory at present, but future technology might allow this color to exist in the real world.
Bleen?! (Pardon my Francais) What the h-ll color is this???????
Stuart, RLine86Man
It doesn't exist. That was the joke. The term "bleen" was used in an episode of Married With Children where Kelly, trying to invent the color "bleen", accidentally creates a cure for baldness.
>>I think the color "bleen" has been reserved for the 2nd Ave. line. This color only exists in artifically created magnetic bottles in the labratory at present, but future technology might allow this color to exist in the real world<<
That would make sense, being that the money needed to build the 2nd Ave line never existed all these years.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, the colors on signs vary; including with fading, and magenta, purple and even violet seem to be interchangeable. A reddish color that could be used is hot or flesh pink, and even lavender, which have been used on the Express bus map (which seems to have been printed once) for Metro Apple, NYBS and some others. Then you would have the 6 primary and secondary colors and their lighter shades, except for orange which is pale enough so that a lighter shade wouldn't be distinguishable enough, although the express bus map used different shades of orange as well (to distinguish crtail Command lines from Queens Transit)
White would be good, except that it would be hard to see on the map. The current map does have a little color in the background, but this would need to be made darker for a white line to be used.
Light blue seems to be the next in line, as it is more popular than the pink shades, and was used already for the JFK.
Repeat after me:
It will never be built.
It will be YELLOW of course because the line will most likely come from Broadway via the Q train.
N Bwy
If connected to Nassau St, then brown. If not, then I say pink.
:-) Andrew
"If connected to Nassau St, then brown. If not, then I say pink."
Although it would be really interesting to see the second avenue line Brown, it wouldn't make sense, because Nassau Street is not Second Avenue. Especially since it goes through Midtown. Therefore, it will have to be another color.
N Bwy
The 7th Avenue line runs under Broadway above Times Square, does that mean that it has to change its color above that point? Because it isn't Midtown.
If the Second Avenue line is connected to Nassau Street, it will become an extension of it.
Pink....has to be either darker or lighter than the 7 line's color, and I can't think of another good color that it could use.....unless it uses Brown (ugh!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Why not violet? Not the purple of the 7, mind you, but the darker purple, known as violet. That color has never been used, and it would make the new trunk line distinct.
CHARTREUSE, that is a fine, unmistakable colour!
It is not yellow, it is not green, light or dark.
avid
CHARTREUSE, that is a fine, unmistakable colour!
Too close to the lime-green used for the G line ....
But the two will never get too close to each other, unless the Second Ave line finally gets to Brooklyn. If it goes Via Water St., it'll need a tunnel $$$$$$$$$.
But the two will never get too close to each other, unless the Second Ave line finally gets to Brooklyn.
Yeah, but the point of good graphic design is not to even allow the possibility of confusion. Regardless of where on the map the lines are, separate lines should have clearly distinct colors.
I vote for light blue.
Yes , like the Orange of A of A and the yellar of B'Way. That's easie on these tired eyes.
I beleive both of our choices would serve the Second Ave Line. Consider, a straight through service, an uptown to 63rd cutoff to B'way service, a Queens Blvd. 63rd and south service.
avid
i think they should use white. after all they already got the X Y and P in the white circle
Sky blue, like the defunct JFK express, IIRC. Other than pink, that's pretty much the only other alternative.
Friday night I was riding the E to Manhattan from Queens in the second car on an R32. (Yes, I know that I should have been railfanning, but I've done it quite a bit on that run.) Somewhere between Roosevelt Ave and Queens Plaza a group of guys kicked in the door to one of the TO/CR rooms and started using the PA. Part of their fun was creating feedback - very loud on the R32 - and announcing bogus stations. This went on until we got to 50th Street (6 stops later) when they delayed the train. It was only after the TO told the CR, "you need to take care of that," that anyone did anything about it. After sitting at 50th St for a few minutes, the CR was still doing announcements from the center car, and eventually the TO came through to our car, gave the youths an evil look, locked the kicked-in door, then left.
First of all, why did it take 6 stops for the crew to do anything?!? What would have happened if the kids started shouting that there was a bomb on the train and caused hundreds of people to panic and trample each other trying to get out of the station? I know that there is always a cop in the Lex/53rd station. Why not keep the doors closed, get the cop, find the car with the open door, and arrest these guys? There were at least 20 other people in the car as witnesses. These guys were pretty gutsy to do it with that many people around - I think they were showing off for girls...
Second, why didn't the TO kick them off the train when they were caught?
Third, how were they able to use the PA from the second car? Isn't a key required? Why don't all non-CR cars become locked out when the CR is using it?
Very frustrating... It seems like our subway quality of life has gone downhill since the start of the year. There are more homeless living on the platforms, piss everywhere, sh** in the corners, and more panhandling. Just when things were getting better...
That's happened to me before as well. They didn't do anything. When they stopped the train at 50st, did they stay in the station with the doors closed so the culprits wouldn't be able to escape?
When they stopped the train at 50st, did they stay in the station with the doors closed so the culprits wouldn't be able to escape?
I thought that they were doing that at first, because they stayed closed longer than usual, but then they opened them before they started searching.
Train crews are not cops. They are not armed. They do not want to do anything which may have the end result of them being assaulted. All PA's are active in all cars, that is how TA mechanical forces have it set up. Why the crew waited 6 stations to delay the train and check the train for an open cab door is purely a judgemental decision by them. The cab doors and their locks are very flimsy, all one has to do is push against a cab door too hard and it opens. This occurance is quite unusual for the E line, it is a daily repetitive occurance on BMT Eastern Division and southern routes.
Train crews are not cops. They are not armed. They do not want to do anything which may have the end result of them being assaulted.
Of course not, but there are stations with known cops in them, and like I said, there were plenty of other people in the car.
All PA's are active in all cars, that is how TA mechanical forces have it set up.
If this is a constant problem, then maybe they should be re-configured.
Are the motor controls set up this way? What happens if someone has stolen/bought on e-bay the proper handles, etc. to control a train, and shoves them in another car's controls?
Cops will not respond to a train unless a station PA announcement is made. By the time the announcement comes over his radio, the train is long gone. If they are not near the train, they cannot hear the PA inside the train. There is a prescribed whistle/horn signal used to summon police. It is in the rulebook and Control Center tells train crews to summon police in this manner. One problem: NYPD does not teach their cops what the signal is! A number of years ago, before NYPD assumed control of the transit police bureau, they did know the signal. One time I signaled for police and I observed a cop climbing a flight of stairs to avoid the problem on my train. "Plenty of other people in the car" doesn't mean anything. These same people must have saw these kids break into the cab, didn't they do anything to stop them? They don't want to get involved either, if the crew comes back to check the train, these same "statues" are anoyed at the crew for delaying the train and not the culprits! "Why can't the crew check the train after I get off" is the prevailing attitude. Finally, if someone has unauthorised tools, if the reverser is put in and he "throws it", the motorman will lose indication; if a brake handle is put in and then "cocked", the train will go into emergency.
It is 5 shorts on the horn. You're right that it is often ignored. A year or two ago, an E T/O sounded this at every station starting somewhere in Queens. At 53rd/5th, someone came out of the tower booth at the end of the tracks and said "whaddya want? da cops?" and the T/O said yes. The tower person then said "try Canal St.".
I assume that if it was something serious, the T/O could report it via the radio for more immediate action, or stop and stay at a station (or between stations) with doors closed.
He goes around sounding 5 shorts on the horn and no one will show up, including the few cops who know the correct call. The correct pattern is Long Short Long Short. There is no official call of 5 short; however, 4 short sounds is a request for the Tower to produce a line-up.
That's the old "high sign" I remember ... when I heard about the five shorts, aside from my usual "TA gotta screw with everything" in the back of my mind, I thought I had seen a "horn decoder ring" here or on JoeKorner ... since I came up empty handed, I just assumed that things had changed. Thanks for the good news that at least ONE rule's still the same. :)
Hey I some guy walking through an R-46 (thats right, a 75 footer with the doors locked) on the queens blvd F and he had a key but I could swear he wasn't no TA worker. No blue shirt, no handles, big backpack, no orange vest, heck you could mistake him for a reguler passenger but a reguler passenger doen't have the door key! Also his key a not shiny, but new looking key and it had some excess metal from when it was cast. I think this key was a counterfit. Where could I get one?
Could have been a TSS, they do not wear uniforms........Non TA employees are not allowed to have TA keys.
Or maybe that chinese dude that sells stuff.
He rides the E only. The one with the light up yoyo, batteries, rubex cube, fake cell phones, and othe chinese trinkets.
I remember a guy on the 4 who used to do that. Maybe he moved...
There are 100s of those guys on the trains, all over on A and B division, its pretty damn easy to pop the doors on an R44/46 even without a screw driver, especially on the R 44s, just pull up on the nandle and pull towards the open position. I relayed this info on subtalk like a 1000 times, i know no one wants to know. another ways is with a screw drivers, stick in a flathead, push right, pop open.
Had I been a passenger on the train, I would have attempted to use a cellphone to call 911 and summon the police. If my cellphone didn't work (depending on where I was in the system, I would have interrupted my trip to call 911 from a station payphone and relayed the train route and car serial number(s).
please waste everyones time, I love foamers, and the extent they will go to protect their precious raifanning equipment when no one else gives a damn. BTW this isnt aimed directly at you Ron.
Why don't they replace the locks and weld some reinforcements on the back of the door?
The TA does not like to admit that there is a problem with these cab doors. It will also cost money to repair them. Finally, a train is late if it arrives more than 5 minutes after its scheduled time. And the 5 minutes is often stretched. If a crew has to search the train for an open cab door enroute, seldom will this make a train statistically late to the terminal.
R142s have manualally operated extra door locks like those found on commercial refrigerators. CI Peter
That's only on the storm doors that open into cabs; the same feature is found on the R44 and R46.
Thanks...I only know Redbird Tech and New Tech...everything else is 'Fuzzy Boolean Logic.' My concern is how great a bastion is the cab for the T/O and C/R in an emergency? Today on special inspections i had a little trouble opening a R142 door with a sticky second lock. I could of course taken a ladder and my key to the crew switch. CI Peter
If I'm in the cab already, I can go out either way - those refrigerator handles aren't so sticky on the inside.
When you don't use the rail, it's a long way down to the ground when you have no step. The C/R is the Commodore...the T/O is the Captain. While I do not expect a 911 incident, you the T/O should have safety and protection to preserve the lives of passengers. The handles aren't so sticky when you have control from the cab...but maintaining control in a 'sticky situation' is one that I would never wish anyone to contend with.
Back during the 'gulf war" (farse that it was...), some kids broke into the PA on a manhattan bound N and announced 'an iraqi bomb threat'. the C/R came back and locked up the door. by then they had run off at Queens plaza.
Another time, it was actually funny. some punk rock kid busted in somewhere as we ran through 60th street tube - first he started singing some punk rock song i couldn't recognize at all - that lasted a few seconds. he shut up, and came back a minute later, this time, in his worst possible voice, singing "new york new york". sinatra mighta rolled over in his grave that day, but pretty much everone in the train looked at each other and laughed a good one. it was brilliant. he too must have ran out at 59th before anyone came back to lock it up...
Ha! I had a C/R on a northbound N leaving Coney Island a few years back putting a radio up to the PA playing some dance music. A few minutes later, the T/O told him to "turn that sh*t off!" Another time, I had a C/R herself sing some weird song midway across the Manhattan Bridge. The train laughed and the T/O never said anything.
You always get the funny stuff on the N...
oh yes. for awhil there was that nutty C/R that would announce station such as "39th aaaaavvvvvvvvvvv-enue", and occasionally say strange thigns like "the exit is at the rear of the station, however, you may walk to the front to view the entire platform" as if showing off some expensive artwork. he was always clear voiced... shoulda been working doing radio spots i bet...
I know who the guy is who stretches out the announcements but it'll always be clear on a train with him as the C/R.
I think that's the guy who I'm talking about!!! =O He is that man!!! I had his twice and will NEVER forget him! That guy is hilarious and the funniest thing I heard him say was "Hello everybody, good morning and welcome aboard the N train. Hope everybody is refreshed and ready to take on the new day." (it was in thr morning) I wanna know when this guy works so I could take his train everyday.
N for Nuts.
My favorite was the conductor on the # 4 train who decided to do his announcements this way:
"Forty Second Street.....Grand Central. Youse all on the WOODS train.....change here for the PELS train."
Well, now you have a new mayor. Like him?
I remember, when I used to take the F to Brooklyn, that the PA was taken over once or twice during rush hour in Brooklyn on an R46. But the guy (one guy) only carried on for one stop and then fled.
Mr. Mayor takes the 6 Train to work. You'd think he'd be the least concerned.
I'll bet he's enjoying those R142As too.
More likly he takes the 4 or 5, stop with a special car and platform.
Happens all the time on the Q-Slants, right when Schools gets out (wonder why that qoe-inky-dink).
School dismissal time is THE worst time of day to be working if you are a transit worker. Next pick I plan on starting my workday hopefully after 3 PM so by the time I go down the road, the school rush would be pretty much over with.
You picked the road on the PMs with your time? I thought I was crazy. Seriously, I love afternoons, even after 14 in title. I don't miss the kids either except mine, and since I go into service at 59th St, I bypass the kiddies altogether. I hope they don't cut more jobs with the new Supts shuffling about.
Currently, I am limited in what I can pick due to keeping an eye on and accompanying an aging parent to varoius doctors appointments.
Ahhhhhh.....the new thankyouverrrrrymuches?
I see they switched some B Div and A Div Supts around. I'm glad the former No.1 Line supt was sent to the A Line but will have to see if her replacement from B Div. is any better.
What was so bad about her?
What is the effective date of this change? It will be interesting to see how someone new approaches the challenges of the 1. I'm hoping for improvements.
The train crew should have realized right a way that someone was using the P.A. system that shouldn't be using it and once this was realized they should have kicked them the hell off of the train.
#3 West End Jeff
Once on PATH, shortly after the TV stations publicized that any old skeleton key would work in the conductor boxes, some kids used theirs and started babbling nonsense. The conductor came on and said something like "And you'd better stop that, too, unless you enjoy getting in trouble." They stopped.
Subtalker Lexcie has just posted some amazing pics from our trip to Cleveland to Washington DC via the former B&O Main Line as traveled by Amtrak's Capitol Limited. You cal see the entire batch here at http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/ However there are a few I would like to point out.
First, there are some "Out The Window" "Head-On" shots taken by Lexcie of trains we were overtaking on the "wrong" track. You can see these AMAZING shots at:
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/csx-8733.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/csx-324-coal2.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/csx-324-coal1.jpg
And the best, a train waiting at a B&O CPL home signal waiting for us to cross over in front of it!
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/csx-2207-trash-overtake.jpg
The rest of the pics were taking from the rear-facing railfan window on the SuperLiner equipment. There are some shots of B&O tunnels:
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/b&o-tail3-fallscut.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/b&o-tail4-carothors.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/b&o-tail5-tunnel.jpg
And a super cool interrior shot:
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/b&o-tunnel3.jpg
Finally there are a good stock of pictures of classic B&O Colour Position Light signals.
First, we have some bracket signals:
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/b&o-sig2.jpg
(A distant signal displaying STOP&PROCEED and APPROACH MEDIUM)
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/b&o-sig4.jpg
(A Block Signal displaying STOP&PROCEED and CLEAR)
A classic B&O signal bridge displaying STOP&PROCEED and APPROACH:
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/b&o-sig3.jpg
And the best one of all, a NEW (relitivly) CPL signal bridge installition diaplaying APPROACH, STOP&PROCEED and STOP&PROCEED:
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/cle/b&o-sig1.jpg
Anyway, you can see that this trip was quite a thrill. I hope you enjoy the pics. I'll have mine in a few month and I am also going to scan Lexcie's pics from the PRR Main leg of the trip. Enjoy.
How do you get shots like this...
without getting in trouble?
I've tried standing in the rear vestibule of the rear of an mfleet II car only to be shooed back to my seat by the conductor. I've never tried hanging out the side door, which it looks like someone did for the photo above.
Yeah, how did he get those photos?
That is an awesome picture.
I was on the Calif. Zephyr in 1988, and I told the crew I was interested in railroads and had brought a camera. In addition, I was a certified EMT at the time, and volunteered to help keep an eye on an elderly lady who was traveling to Salt Lake City.
In return, the crew allowed me to hop off the train in a marshalling yard to take pictures of them at work, stand on the rear vestibule and shoot what I liked, etc. They even woke me up at midnight when they thought there was something I should capture with my camera and allowed me to use flash. I posed my sleeping car attendant by her car and took her picture. Aftewr the trip, I mailed a thank you letter and photos to each member of the crew for their scrapbooks.
The rules are a bit more stringent today, I imagine.
Also, the combination of a curve and a zoom lens can make a nice "trackbed shot"
How do you get shots like this...
First, you need to ride on an "interactive" train...ie one where you can open the doors and windows. Amfleet II coaches you see on the NEC are non-interactive. Some of the Amfleet I's (only one door per coach) have openable windows (slide down), but most have this feature screwed shut. Horizon coaches (the Bombardier commuter cars) have non-lockable side doors that you can open and the SuperLiners have a large openable window on each door. There is a single, easy open latching lever.
Second, you need to factor in the fact that the train crew can't be everywhere at once. You can't go riding w/ your head out the window for the whole trip. We would wait for a curve or our train to overtake another train on an adjacent track and then go get the shot.
Third, teamwork is very important. On a SuperLiner there is a main upper level and a small lower level serviced by a small staircase. The lower levels are isolated from every other part of the train and lower level seating is typically filled last. Lexcie would make sure that the car was free of train personell and then venture down for a quick shot, counting on the fact that he had at least 30 seconds b4 anyone could reach his location. For the front end shots of the CSX trains we were overtaking, Lexcie used me as a lookout positioned at the foot of the staircase to warn him of any approaching personel. On another roll of film is some more shots like these. On that occasion I was in the lower level watching a C/R looking out the open window. I saw that we were overtaking a train on the adjacent track. I quickly run up to the main level and stop Lexcie who was comming to take a photo and point him to another car where there was no fuzz so to speak.
The actual process of picture taking was to wait for our train to pass the engines of the other train, at that point the window was opened and Lexcie then checked down our direction to make sure there was not another train comming. After asertaining that there was clearance he would extend himself out with the camera to take the photo. We were laughing about what it must have looked like to the engineers in the freight trains we were passing.
I've tried standing in the rear vestibule of the rear of an mfleet II car only to be shooed back to my seat by the conductor. I've never tried hanging out the side door, which it looks like someone did for the photo above.
Ride Keystone trains. The crew are PennDoT employees and are generally a lot more forgiving than real Amtrak staff. After looking out the secondary vestabule window, scanner in hand, a Keystone C/R let me back in the vestabule. It was one of the most thrilling rides I ever had.
PS: You are generally allowed one "getting busted" per ride per crew member. If you get caught again they will usually threaten you about being put off the train.
Ride Keystone trains. The crew are PennDoT employees and are generally a lot more forgiving than real Amtrak staff. After looking out the secondary vestabule window, scanner in hand, a Keystone C/R let me back in the vestabule. It was one of the most thrilling rides I ever had.
Keystone trains are the ones I've ridden the most. In fact, that's the train where I got "caught." I managed to ride standing in the rear vestibule the whole way through the Hudson tubes and almost to NWK beforehand. If I'd had my wits about me, I would have kept looking over my shoulder, but my thinking was, "What could possibly be the harm in standing here?" Perhaps you benefitted from the graciousness of the personnel after the crew-change at PHL. You can tell by their accents that the PHL-HAR crews are Central Pennsylvanians and work only that route (Keystone, Three Rivers and Pennsylvanian) and are more laid back than the rest of the NEC crews, I find. I've had the best luck chatting-up these crews complared to other Amtrak crews I've ridden with.
Well I had my scanner out and was looking through the "secondary" window. The guy offered for me to stand in the vestabule. I didn't even ask.
The other while heading to see the Newark Subway at the Franklin terminal, I came across a ROW that is in the Forest Hill section of Newark. It seems to go East/West in direction and is near Veronia Ave. and Sylvan Ave. Does anyone know if this is an active ROW and what is it used for?
Where did this article come from?
Did you compose it yourself?
Is it not customary to give credit to the author of an article when you copy it word for word?
Everyone on SubTalk should be recognizant of the fact that is it not ethical, and it illegal, to reproduce writings without giving credit to the original author or publication.
When we practice this, it is the same as stealing, and it’s called plagiarism.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
Yesterday at the Train Show in Timonium,Md I ahd a chance to see a production model of 4 car set of R-32's. This set is great looking.Without having my copy of NY City subway cars book with me, I would say MTH did a very nice job of reproducting these cars on O Gauge.I spoke to the MTH rep about these cars, and he said they should be to the dealers in about 3 weeks. He showed me some real surprises about this set.1) There is a lever under each car that opens all the side doors. I did not notice if this was one one side of the car or both sides. 2)When you open the doors on the power car, these is a small up and down switch that lets you change the front local and exp sign to either sign.Now the neat part! When you change from local or exp it also changes the announcements in the Proto-Sound2 system. I did not get a chance to hear the different announcements.3) The rep set there will be add on car sets to the 4 car set that will have different car numbers. The cars have a draw bar between the blind end of the cars. The gap between the cars is much better than the R-42 cars.The train set is a N Train.The signs are hard to read without the lights on in the cars since it looks like all the signs are not decals, but are rather printed on the plastic so they light from the inside out. In gerenal, these cars are going to be demand by subway fans.
Have Fun,
Ron J.
These MTH sets keep getting better and better. The R-21 set was a VAST improvement over the R-42 sets.
Once I add the R-32's (and the upcoming R-17's, which are a minor re-working of the R-21 sets), it won't look good to run the R-42's beside them.
When will the Newark City Subway resume Saturday and Sunday rail service? Right now, as far as I know, the weekend bus subsitution is still operating. I want to go to Newark to see the new LRVs, but without weekend service that's not possible. Thanks in advance to all who take the time to answer.
Go to Jersey City and see the new LRVs on the HBLR. They are the same.
I know that, but thanks anyway. I've seen the HBLR. I want to see the new LRVs on the Newark CS. So I still want to know - when will the weekend bustitution end?
When the extension is completed. It is supposed to be finished November 2001 (snicker).
Anyone know the new date for the extension? Right now the best way to see the new station and yard is to ride out to Heller Parkway and walk 'left' a few blocks, get to watch all the deadhead moves to the new yard.
I recently received the latest subway map (Dec.2001), and noticeted that the Sea Beach line (the N train) does not go to Coney Island anymore, and terminates at 86th St. When did this change take place? and why?
It's a temporary change that went into effect late in 2001 to enable the rebuilding of the Coney Island terminal. I'm not sure of the exact time frame (I'm sure another subtalker knows the date) but it will be probably be for about a year. N Trains will return to Coney Island when the rebuild is complete.
I know it started on November 5, 2001, but not sure if it's ending in 2004, or 2005.
Thank you
Thank you.
The older rollsigns do not have anything close to 86th St. on them so N trains are signed King Hwy which in fact is where the crew's change southbound anyway so for the crew that is the right terminal >G<.
Last weekend (and, presumably, the prior weekend and this coming weekend), both terminals on the N rollsigns were set to the crew change points, not the actual terminals. Due to a GO, the north terminal was Lex/60, but that's not on the signs, so 57/7 was used instead -- and 57/7 is where crews changed (southbound).
Andrew Merelis here again. Working on the LIRR documentary.
I've contacted a whole bunch of you guys, and wanted to thank you for all the directions you have sent me in to dig for information and archived photos and film.
The only person who I have encountered who has not been helpful, in fact, quite the opposite, is the guy who is "in charge of filming" of the LIRR. Some guy named "Mr. Charles." He gave me little useful information, said that he would have to charge me lots of money (in the thousands) in a threatening kind of way that I think he enjoyed a little too much, and told me to submit a proposal, refusing to comment generally on how long it will take for them to get back to me or if I have a chance in hell of getting a "yes" of any kind to videotape various things LIRR.
Any advice?
-Andrew Merelis
Merelis@Juno.com
You can get around characters like him - just keep on trying. Remember - fall down seven times, get up eight. He DOES have a supervisor, and he DOES have to answer to somebody.
LIRR is not railfan friendly. Kind of a tradition I think. It is very difficult to get any kind of much useful railfan info, unlike the subways.
I'm sure many of you are aware of the stub that is present at the top level of Queensboro station that services the 7, N and W. I was wondering, is it even possible to rebuild the tracks across Queensboro Bridge and link it up to any line? Does this even hold any potential?
You have GOT to be KIDDING. That used to be a connection to an el which ran across the Queensboro bridge, but there is no way that it would be re-constructed. That bridge needs less weight put on it, not more, and it is in serious need of a major repair, or even replacement.
Maybe they could put an old subway car up there as a reminder of a glorious past.
On second thought, it would just be a target for vandals. Forget I mentioned it.
There were once a lot of rail lines on the QB Bridge. I've read the main reason for removing them was the fact the bridge could not support the weight (rather like the Manhattan Bridge, only worse, and more apparent to the engineers then).
A replacement for the QB Bridge would be interesting. The pressures to build it to accomodate rail lines again would be intense.
I think Penn station could use a couple tracks, maybe Metro-North, connect the west side IRT to the 7 line.
The BMT 60th street river tube was built because the Queensboro
bridge could not support the weight of steel subway cars. The BMT
was to have used the bridge to reach LIC. That's why the 59th st
BMT station has two unused platforms.
REPLACEMENT???
It just went though a billion dollar (+) rehab for over 10 years. Your not wasting my tax money on replacing it!!
That's the old 2nd Ave El stub. I think the El tracks remained on the upper level of the Queensborough until the late 1940's, years after the line was torn down in Manhattan.
At any rate, there's no way auto lanes are going to be torn up in favor of rails. Further, even if the 2nd Avenue subway is built (which I doubt) it will be a subway, not an el, so there's nothing to connect the rails to.
The stub will just stay a stub.
The 2nd Ave. el trains ran on the QB Bridge until June 1942. Upon crossing the bridge the route turned south onto 2nd Ave. and went to South Ferry or City Hall.
Ironically, the 63d St. Tunnel and 2nd Ave. subway duplicate and will duplicate, respectively, this old route.
I noticed that along the ROW of the subways there are large pieces of track and parts of switches left stacked up in between the tracks or next to them. Are these left there so that in case of a quick repair the parts are already in place to complete the job? The pieces are too large for any sticky fingered clown to steal, but they would make good hiding places for all manner of vermin, both two and four -legged. What's up with that?
Parts for scheduled repairs are often dropped off in advance. This mostly includes bulky/heavy stuff like rail and switch hardware. The plates, clips, and ties seem to come in the night(s) of the job on the work motors.
Of course, emergency work can postpone scheduled repairs, so parts can pile up for some time. Or a trackbed replacement might depend on some waterproofing work being done first.
But I agree that sometimes this stuff seems to sit for an extended period of time. PATH in particular seems to "forget" stuff - there is rail on Track 2 at 33rd St. that dates from the switch replacement a year or two ago, and there is more rail near the leak in Tunnel B that has been there for over 5 years.
I have also seen quick repairs done over night (lets say replace a running rail) but they finish too close to the Rush Hour so they leave the old rail, back up and go home. That rail stays there for awhile.
That's right. It costs money to get the work train out there on an emergency basis to drop off the new rail, so they are not going to send out a special work train just to pick up the old rail.
Why?
It would seem these bulk items might present a work hazard. Surely some scrap dealer would be interested in purshasing this material (steel) to convert to peaceful consumer items.
Who or whom bought the 3rd Avenue Elevated scrap, the Atlantic Ave rehab elevated structure? That stuff seems like a lot of "tax $" just laying around!
avid
Brain Cudahy's book suggests that the scrap steel from the els went to Japan for recycling, which became a considerable embarrassment in 1941.... I have heard that the scrap steel from the WTC wreckage has also gone to the Far East for recycling. Which raises another question: why are the Redbirds going to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean instead of their steel being recycled?
>>>...why are the Redbirds going to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean instead of their steel being recycled?<<<
The cost of abestos abatement would lower the return fron recycling considerably.
Peace,
ANDEE
Last weekend, the third rail was left uncovered on part of the L in Brooklyn. Watch your step!
I have seen in the past few days on the New Haven Line of MNRR many Amtrak trains passing. Some are Acela's and are using the complete car and locomotive sets. Others are regular trains and they are hooked up to an Acela locomotive.
Why is Amtrak doing this?
The former are Acela Express trains. They have their own dedicated trainsets and are the super fast premium trains. The latter engines are HHP-8s. They are not in permanant trainsets and can be customized rather easily. Those are Acela Regionals.
Just to clarify further, the Acela Express locomotives (or power cars) are completly different from the HHP-8 locomotives. One cannot replace the other in service.
Just to clarify further, the Acela Express locomotives (or power cars) are completly different from the HHP-8 locomotives. One cannot replace the other in service.
Acela Express has a single-ended motor (power car) on each end of a trainset.
HHP-8 is a double-ended motor pulling a train.
Could someone explain why this HHP-8 is presumably being used on a whole host of lines, including the Metroliner. And why, if it is used on different routes, does it have the name Acela plastered on the loco. Having never ridden the Metroliner until after the advent of the Acela Express, it was my understanding that the Metroliner, in addition to being a route, was also a particular trainset. Now, it seems like all these trainsets, except for Ac. Exp., are interchangeable. There is essentially no difference between and Acela Regional trian and a Metroliner from NY to DC except for a higher price on the Metroliner. Granted M. has first-class (never ridden that way), but what is called reserved business class on the M. is nothing more than coach on the Acela Regional. In fact, last weekend, i rode down on an Acela Reg. that had newer cars than on the M. ride back up (and for $40 less). In another twist the M. had cars with the 'Regional' label on the sides. Any help?
A_west
"Could someone explain why this HHP-8 is presumably being used on a whole host of lines, including the Metroliner. ... Now, it seems like all these trainsets, except for Ac. Exp., are interchangeable. There is essentially no difference between and Acela Regional trian and a Metroliner from NY to DC except for a higher price on the Metroliner."
Bingo. When all the Acela Expresses are up and running, there will only be two types or levels of NEC train, Acela Express and Acela Regional.* The Metroliners whose slots aren't taken over by Expresses will become Regionals, and the Metroliner equipment will be used for Regional trains. Allegedly, ALL NEDirect equipment will be renovated to Acela Regional/Metroliner standards -- some cars have been so remodeled, but some haven't yet. When they're all done, there will be one set of fares for Acela Expresses and one set of fares for all Acela Regionals.
*There WAS also going to be Acela Commuter, replacing the Clockers. But the Clockers are going to be operated by NJT, not Amtrak.
"Could someone explain why this HHP-8 is presumably being used on a whole host of lines, including the Metroliner..."
When the Metroliner trainsets were taken out of service, they were replaced with AEM-7's and Amfleet equipment and called "Metroliner Service". The AEM-7's are now being replaced with HHP-8's.
HHP8s are here to replace the E60s from what I understand. AEM-7s are being overhauled to AEM-7AC specs and they're supposed to last for long time to come.
Shawn.
Yup, the HHP-8's were designed with greater the tractive effort required to pull the long haul trains.
Hence the "H"igh "H"orse "P"ower designation. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Metroliner coaches are different from regular Northeast Direct. Metroliner coaches seat about 60 whereas the NED (original amfleet) seat 88. The metroliner coaches have little curtains onthe windows, the amfleet have none. The metroliners have leg rests, the amfleet have none.
AFAIK, the metroliner coaches are retrofitted amfleet coaches. When the original metroliners broke down, GG1s used to be the metroliner equipment. Eventually, Amtrak decided the GG1s were too slow and bought AEM7s. For people paying a premium fare, Amtrak designed a premium coach. The original Amfleets were reconfigured with fewer seats and plusher decor.
Michael
Amtrak decided the GG1s were too slow and bought AEM7s.
IIRC, the EPA felt that the GG1's PCB's were too dangerous and Amtrak spent many years looking for a replacement. The E60 was supposed to be it, but was inadequate. The G's hung around until the AEM7's came along.
I don't think PCBs were a factor as PCBs are used in E-60s, a factor that comes up a bit too often (whenever they catch fire) or when the Pyranol-cooled transformers leak.
eGGs
Yesterday I visited the Museum of the City of NY, which had an exhibit of the drawings of caricaturist Al Hirschfeld. (Unfortunately, the exhibit ends today.) In his long career, Hirschfeld had many artistic incarnations. The exhibit showed a poster he did for the NYCTA in 1940 called "Pushers-In and Sardine Chauffeurs." It was commissioned by the TA to help subway workers in the newly-unified system learn their various roles, in a tongue-in-cheek way. It was a picture of the IRT Times Square station, packed with people trying to get into a train. The "Sardine Chauffeur" was apparently the conductor, standing on the outside platform between the 2 subway cars, trying to shut the doors, glaring at the people (some things never change). The Pushers-In were 2 platform conductors who were literally pushing people onto the train -- just like they do in Japan! I had no idea that NY actually had this practice once upon a time. Was anyone else on this board aware of this? When did they stop doing this?
Yes, you are right. I know that the "pushers" were once pictured at work in the NY Times Sunday Magazine sometime about 1964 or so. I am not sure if the article with pictures was a nostalgia bit or current. I do remember that the train in the picture was pre war, from its paint job, and I think that my father told me, it was the BMT.
You could probably find the article in a NY Times index. I would to suggest to start around 1965 or maybe 1966 around strike time.
Aside from what is on the website pertaining to an upcoming exam for Police Officer positions at the MTA Police (not the NYPD Transit Bureau - rather the police who protect MNR and LIRR), does anybody have any info as to their opeartions such as district numbers, district office locations, etc....anything along that line??
http://community-2.webtv.net/SMOKIECAT/RADIOGUIDEtoNYC/page7.html
regards
Rob
We have heard many plans for bringing the LIRR into the WTC site, but all of these semed to involve the Atlantic Avenue Branch. This is a rather difficult feat given the plethora of subway lines that would need to be crossed just in Brooklyn alone. And I question the capacity of that line.
Here is my proposal to use the Montauk Branch to Long Island City, and then crossing the river almost due south striking Manhattan at Avenue C and following around to the WTC site.
Since this is to be a very deep station, the bores would be well below existing subway and utility lines. The WTC Station would be at or below the WTC era PATH station. Four track tubes would run under the Hudson and under the East River. LIRR trains will terminate in New Jersey, and NJT trains at Sunnyside.
Two of the lines will be used for freight movements at night and when commuter traffic permits. The New York and Atlantic should handle these movements rather than CSX or NS since locomotives would have to be changed out for electics anyway. Certainly the bores need to be large enough to accomodate even the largest freight cars.
Details and maps are on the Subways 2020 Web Site.
Elias
A novel idea, particularly the part about freight. If you could tie the northern Queens part into Hell Gate (which, I think, you can), you can create the connection currently being proposed with a new tunnel from Bay Ridge to either NJ or SI.
Thank You.
Clearly the freight connection is needed.
Yes, it learly connects to the Hell Gate Bridge.
I think it will be easier, less costly, and more effective to build this kind of a tunnel than a freight only tunnel through the middle of the bay.
With the expansion of business into New Jersey, and hopefully also onto Long Island it seems well to me that LIRR trains should continue into New Jersey for the benefit of LI residents who may work in NJ, and for NJT to provied similar through service onto Long Island.
Certainly such capibilities will benefit employers who will be able to draw workers from other areas.
Elias
I think it will be easier, less costly, and more effective to build this kind of a tunnel than a freight only tunnel through the middle of the bay.
You need waterfront access in Brooklyn where rail ROWs currently go to the waterfront. And it needs to be as close as possible to the proposed Brooklyn deepwater port/container facility.
Your routing doesn't do this. Frankly, this is one case where a freight-only tunnel makes sense.
"You need waterfront access in Brooklyn where rail ROWs currently go to the waterfront. And it needs to be as close as possible to the proposed Brooklyn deepwater port/container facility. "
Huh?
It may come as a shock to you, but the freight yards here in North Dakota are nowhere near a waterfront, yet we ship grain all over the world! The connection to the Connecting Railroad passes just east of the Sunnyside yards.
Much through traffic will want to continue on to Conneticut, and this makes an easier approach for that. You would want to be able to load and unload cargos for Long Island and Conneticut here in Brooklyn, but cargo for New Jersey and points west would naturally be unloaded on the New Jersey side of the river anyway.
But I will re-draw my map with this service in mind.
Elais
The need for through LI to NJ service verifies my belief that it is time to abolish MTA, PATH, LIRR, Metro-North, NJT and replace it with a new RTA (Regional transportation Authority). The existing agencies would be under the RTA umbrella and we'd have a true regional transit system. I know NJT does not use thrid rail but even a change of trains at NY Penn with one ticket is better than two railroads.
The 'Neues Ordnungstdienst auf BahnStockken.' The trains WILL always be on time.
If LIRR were to run thru trains to Newark Airport, to Newark Penn Station, or to the new Seacacuas Transfer, then it would be no big deal to add a third rail. Heck it even keeps the bean counters in the power house happy, knowing who used what.
Likewise on the LI side: If NJT privides service to LaGuardia or to Jamacia it would not be dificult to hang some wires. Heck, the wires are already in place across the Hell Gate Bridge, and if you build a new two mile spur to Laguardia, there is no reason not to insatall both systems.
A Regional Transportation Authority is a good idea, probably well workable since the enities you propose to merge into it are already government agencies rather than private corporations (needing to be bought out).
One wonders if the local agencies that we have now might not be more responsive to the local needs, but in as much as they really haven't been so in the past, maybe this is a non-issue. Certainly a biger Region Wide agency may have the clout to steam-roll some of the NIMBY-PAMBIES. : )
I have often thought about abolishing the Federal Fuels taxes, and replacing them with State and or Regional taxes. In vast areas like where I live in North Dakota, Five or six states might get together in one Transportation Region, with one tax, one set of standards, and a uniform set of goals. Likewise in "small" areas (Heheheheee) like NYC, a Regional approach makes more sense, what with four states with in an hour's commute of each other in what is other wise just one big metropolitan area. Set the highway-transportation taxes as you need them, and spend them as you need them in a mix of modes that gets the most miles to the buck for the most people.
Clearly Regional transportation is an issue that transcends state borders, yet is not a 'Federal' or 'National' issue.
Elias
It would be if it concerned freight transit. Interstate commerce (including freight shipping) is an Federal level of jurisdiction accorded to the government by the Constitution of the US.
Stuart, RLine86Man
San Francisco LRV number 1326 has been put on track at the Manchester MetroLink depot following movement by Road from the docks in Southampton. Can any subtalkers post info on this LRV,such as technical spec,builder etc,it is turning a few heads this side of the 'pond'!
regards
Rob
Badly built by Boeing.
-Robert King
>>> Can any subtalkers post info on this LRV <<<
The archives from a couple of months ago have a lot of comments about the sale. Most of them are to the effect that those cars built by Boeing were nothing but trouble, and San Francisco should have paid Manchester for hauling them away.
Tom
I'll bet it will be turning a few mechanics' heads when they wonder how to fix the piece of crap.
The guy pops a panel to fix something. Then he calls out "Garrett AiRearch? Who in the heck are they?"
General Information
Manufacturer: Boeing-Vertol
Vehicle Type: Double Ended Articulated
Cost per Car (US $) : 300,000
Year Delivered: 1976-1978
Date in service: 1976
Voltage: 650 Volts DC
Dimensions/Weight/Capacity
Length over couplers: 73 feet
Length over body ends: 71 feet
Width: 8 feet, 10 1/4 inches
Height (rail to roof-panto locked down): 11 feet, 4 inches
Floor height (rail to floor): 34 inches
Pantograph operating range: 11' 4" - 19'
Empty weight per car: 67,000 pounds
Interior headroom (center aisle): 6' 5"
Interior width (minimum):
Doorway width (minimum): 4' 6"
Doorway height: 6' 11" from 1st step
Step height (1st step): 12" above top of rail
Performance
Initial acceleration on level tangent track (mphps): 2.8
Service acceleration on level tangent track (mphps): 3.1
Acceleration 0-50 w/100 riders: 37 seconds
Service Braking on level tangent track (mphps): 3.5
Emergency braking on level tangent track below 30 MPH: 6.0 mphps
Emergency braking on level tangent track above 30 MPH: 4.0 mphps
Maximum design speed (mph): 70 MPH (Speed attained in 1975 at DOT test track, Pueblo, Colorado)
Maximum operating speed (mph): 52 MPH
Maximum grade (feet/inches): 9%
Minimum horizontal curve radius (feet/inches): 42 feet
Minimum vertical curve radius (feet/inches): Crest: 300'; Sag: 400'
Noise Levels (Interior, all systems operating): 65 dBA
Noise Levels (Exterior 50' at 40 MPH, all systems operating): 80 dBA
Maximum cars per consist: 3 (Maximum for Platform length limit); 4 (Maximum for Trainline)
Body
Manufacturer: Boeing-Vertol, Philadelphia, PA.
Body Material: LAHTS (Low Alloy High Tension Steel)
Ceilings and Walls: Molded melamine plastic panels
Floor Material: Rubber Sheet
Window type: Sealed Laminate Safety Glass
Doors: 6 (3 per side)
Windows: 20 (10 per side)
Seats: Molded Fiberglas with vinyl covered padded inserts
Propulsion/Trucks
Propulsion manufacturer: Garrett Airesearch Manufacturing
Number of trucks/car: 3
Number of axles/truck: 2
Number of motors/car: 2
Motor Details: Monomotor, 210 HP, 152 KV, 280 VDC, 600 Amp, force ventilated by separate mounted blower motors
Wheel diameter (inches):
Wheel base: 23 feet
Track gauge (inches): 4 feet, 8 1/2 inches (Standard)
Gear ratio: 5.571:1
Gearbox: Rockwell Standard, single reduction Hypoid type
Truck manufacturer: Toyku Car Company
Brakes/Suspension
Brake System Types: Friction (Disc) Dynamic (Regenerative) and Track (Electro-Magnetic)
Service Brake manufacturer: New York Air Brake Company
Service Brake Type: Electro-Hydraulic-Pneumatic friction Disc Brakes
Spin/slide protection: Provided through Electronic propulsion logic during service braking
Track Brake manufacturer: Socimi S.p.A., Milan Italy
Track Brake Details: Type AM110F, 16-20 VDC, 6 per car, 2 per truck
Vehicle Capacity
Design load: 219
Crush load: 275
Wheelchair capacity: 2
Passenger Convenience Items
HVAC Manufacturer: Vapor/Sutrak
A/C type/capacity: 2 roof-mounted units; 7 tons w/individual thermostats and controls
Heating type/capacity (kW): Provided through HVAC units
Seat Manufacturer: General Seating and sash Company
Public Address System: AEL-Emtech Corp. Provided through radio hand set
Interior Lighting Manufacturer: Luminator-Gulton Industries;
Interior Lighting: Continuos Fluorescent, above seats Normal: 12 fixtures DC Fluorescent; Emergency: 4 fixtures DC Fluorescent
Number of Destination Signs: 6 Hand Crank Signs
Door type: Original: Plug type; Rehab: S.M.C., 2 leaf bifold, electro-pneumatic 24-42 VDC, 140 PSI
Number of doors/car: 6 (3 each side)
Electrical and Control Systems
Control: Chopper Controlled
Low voltage power supply: 37.5 VDC
Motor Control: Solid state Electronic Propulsion Logic Unit
Amperage draw: 600 Amp
notes to above, the seating capacity applies only to the SF designed cars. The built for Boston, refused, then modified for SF had single seats for greater standee space. Destination signs were motor operated from the cab, such that often in the last decade any given car might display different destinations on EACH sign. Secondly, concurrent with the delivery of the LRV 2's (first Breda order) two signs per unit were blanked out wth black plastic panels--presumably to make them match the Bredas which have only four signs.
For reference, track 1 is n/b local, track 2 is for n/b exp, track 3 is for s/b exp., and track 4 is for s/b local.
One Sunday morning last summer at Metuchen, we noticed some interesting things happening. I remember that it was raining continuously, causing a flood in the underpass of Main St. Metuchen.
Because of construction, the train was stopping on low-level platforms on track 2 (to NYP), as it usually does.
But further down the line, things started to get a little eerie.
1. We started moving (still rained out) and switched from track 2 to track 3.
2. We continued further up and somewhere before Metropark, one conductor said "Track 4 for Metropark, track 4."
3. Sure enough, we switch to track 4 for Metropark, and on track 1 there is a frozen AMTRAK train with the bright, turquoise color coach cars, about 6 of them.
4. ...Where it was not long until I saw a rusty, orange diesel AMTRAK loco. sputtering down track 3 n/b. There were TWO of them.
5. We leave, switch to track 3 and continue our trip, where we pass one of the orange loco's, and then be passed by one of them.
6. Before the track configurations at Rahway, train stops, and switches about 5 tracks to track 1 (there are 6 tracks now).
7. The rest of the trip was normal.
1) Can anyone tell me why those orange, rusty loco.'s run up and down the NEC?
2) Can anyone tell me anything about that AMTRAK train?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
: )
The orange Amtrak locomotives are work train power.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Earlier this week the Phila Inquirer reported that the Silverliner V's would have 3-2 seating between the quarter-point doors. Apparently this set off some controversy as several letters to the editor have followed along with a follow-up story in today's Inquirer about the inadequacy of 3-seat 'banquettes' with 18" of tush room. Maybe SEPTA will reconsider? This should get interesting.
Is there any logistic reason that precludes SEPTA from using bi-level coaches aka NJT, MBTA, MARC, and LIRR? Or would this make too much sense?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Would bi-level cars be able to fit in the Center City Tunnels?
These are MU's they are buying. 'Sides, ridership dosen't warrent bi-levels. SEPTA should just buy the Arrow II's and call it even.
But according to the article in the Inquirer (SEPTA widens its view of seats), it appears SEPTA is facing a capacity crunch on the Regional Rail lines, hence, the reason for trying to cram 2+3 seating into the cars. The article gives the impression that it's a choice between 2+3 seating or buying more cars. The third option, not mentioned, would be bi-level cars, allowing more seats to fit into a single car without cramming people in like sardines. And who says bi-level cars can't be MU's? The IC (now Metra Electric) has had bi-level MU's for some time now, albiet of a larger size than LIRR or MBTA.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Woah! Woah! SEPTA does and HAD ALWAYS used a 3-2 seat configuration. Just like NJT, Metro North and the LIAR. What are people complaining about?
I still maintain bi-levels would be a better option. You couldn't pay me to sit in that middle seat if the seats on either side were filled. I'd prefer to stand, thankyouverymuch.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It depends on who you are sitting next to. On a packed NJT train I saw a guy sandwitched b/t two attractive young girls. BTW, the LAIR bi-levels are 3-2 on both levels I believe.
On a packed NJT train I saw a guy sandwitched b/t two attractive young girls. BTW,the LAIR bi-levels are 3-2 on both levels I believe.
You have to wonder what the girls thought about the situation. In any event, I have never sat in a middle seat in almost eight years of commuting. If middle seats are all that's left, I stand. Sitting in a middle seat is a rude and obnoxious act.
One correction - the "LIAR" bi-levels have 2-2 seating on both levels.
One correction - the "LIAR" bi-levels have 2-2 seating on both levels.
That was short sighted. They could have had 20% more capacity right off the bat. If commuters want 2-2 seating they should ride Amtrak. Anyway, the M7's are 3-2.
If middle seats are all that's left, I stand. Sitting in a middle seat is a rude and obnoxious act.
Nobody ever "sits" in a middle seat. The guy sitting on the isle is "bumped" over into the middle seat.
Nobody ever "sits" in a middle seat. The guy sitting on the isle is "bumped" over into the middle seat.
Not true. You can see the pattern quite clearly as trains fill. Typically, the window seat on a three-across is the first to be occupied, followed by the aisle seat. You'll then hear the dreaded "excuse me" as some schmuck asks the person on the aisle to stand up for a moment so he or she (the newcomer) can get the middle seat. The person in the aisle seat does not move over into the middle seat. Except in the cases of groups travelling together, hardly anyone ever sits in a middle seat if there are any other vacant seats.
If there is no unoccupied seat I stand. I have run into people who objected if I try to seat in the aisle seat on "their seat". If I am sitting by the window and someone wants the seat I get up instead of risking some (your choice of word) person objecting. They usually get off in a stop or two anyway.
NJT is getting better- now the conductors tell people to put luggage overhead snd do not flip the seats unelss the party is 4 or more and I have seen conductors flip the seats, making the occupant remove their feet.
I wont have to put up with NJT much longer- I am planning on obtaining a car and driving to S.I. for the NYCT bus to Brooklyn .
This similar pattern can be found on MBTA commuter trains:
1. Two side window
2. Three side window
3. Three side aisle
4. Two side aisle
5. Three side middle ("Scuuuuuze me!")
But on the MBTA 700-series and 1700-series Kawasaki bilevels, there are six to eight coveted "singles." They go FAST!
Each train has one (and usually only one) 500 or 1500-series MBB car (restroom equipped). They have 2x2 reversible seating, and fill rapidly too.
Here's where you can find a roster of all the MBTA equipment.
The commuter rail coaches are in this section.
This similar pattern can be found on MBTA commuter trains:
1. Two side window
2. Three side window
3. Three side aisle
4. Two side aisle
5. Three side middle ("Scuuuuuze me!")
I find myself in quite a dilemma if I'm among the first on a train, and it is one of the trains that gets fairly but not completely full. Do I take the window seat on the two-across or three-across side? If I go for the two-across, there certainly will be someone next to me before long, but unless the person's really large it will be a tolerable fit. Now, if I go for the three-across, there may be no one in the middle seat next to me, in which case I'll have a pleasant ride, but on the other hand someone might snag the middle seat and I'll be miserable. It's not easy deciding what to do.
I still maintain bi-levels would be a better option. You couldn't pay me to sit in that middle seat if the seats on either side were filled
Is the seating capacity on the IC bilevel electrics any greater than on the CNW bilevel coaches? My impression of the bilevel coaches on my trip to Kenosha in August was that they had relatively few seats for a big car.
METRA bilevel coach on way to Kenosha
sitting upstairs
Metra's bilevels (including both electric and C&NW "gallery" coaches) have roughly the same seating capacity, give or take a little. The basic configuration is essentially the same, with the following exceptions:
- Electrics are arranged in married pairs, with a cab at each end of the pair. Gallery coaches have cab cars and trailers.
- Electrics don't have on-board lavatories, coaches do.
- It doesn't really impact seating capacity, but the electrics have high-level boarding, whereas the coaches have platform level boarding and steep steps in the vestibules.
- Electrics have fixed seats, while the coaches have reversible seats.
However, the configuration used here in Chicago is different than those used on the East Coast (MBTA, MARC, VRE, etc). Metra's bi-levels are built pretty much like standard single-level coaches, except with the addition of sort of a "half-level" above. They have about 50% more seating capacity than a standard single-level coach.
The bi-levels used on the East Coast have sort of a "split-level" design, with two full levels except at the ends which are sort of an intermediate level above the trucks. While Metra's coaches look much larger on the exterior, I suspect the bi-levels on the East Coast probably have upwards of 70-80% more capacity than single-level coaches, and appear to ride lower to the ground.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't you mean LIRR, and not LIAR?
As someone who takes the R6 from Elm every day, I always get a
window seat in a 3 seater.
I walk from 19th St to 30th in the afternoon, so I can get a
seat on the way home.
Almost always when its two people in the 3 seaters, gaureenteed,
it will be a women who squeezes in.
What they need is extra cars on the trains
And while I am at it, why is the 5:09 express in the afternoon
in back of the local?
they literally get in to Elm right in back of the other!
makes no sense!
Almost always when its two people in the 3 seaters, gaureenteed,
it will be a women who squeezes in.
Not in my experience. It's usually a larger man who cannot fit
who wedges himself into the middle.
3-2 seating was introduced to Philadelphia back in 1963 when the Budd Silverliner II's went into service on the then PRR & RDG. The seats were flip-over type bench seats with no defined place to put ones posterior.
After years of 2-2 seating offered by the PRR MP54’s and the RDG MU’s, these seats were not welcome by the Philadelphia commuter. I remember on the RDG that conductors would ‘remind’ people the center seat was not for baggage on crowded rush hour trains.
The seats were not popular then, and they are not popular now, but are 'standard' on most east coast commuter systems.
However, a seat is a seat, and if you don’t want to stand you’ll have to squeeze into that middle seat, and like it.
BTW David Cole, I don’t think that a two-level car is a viable option on SEPTA as there are many low bridge and wire locations, especially on the ex-RDG side of the system.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
What is up with the decline in popularity of the "flipable" style seats? Even on NJT the conductors never let you flip the seats on those cars that have them. When you can flip the seats you can make yourself a little private conferance area for your group or your feet.
A couple of thoughts.
SEPTA has stated that 'capacity' is the rationale for retention of the 3-seaters. There are many cars sitting in Powelton Yard and others right now during each rush hour. There are, as several of you noted, 'short' trains. All of the cars in the yards can't be there awaiting maintenance, etc.
'Capacity' is generally only needed in peak hours. At other times, there is plenty of capacity. The bus, el, trolley, etc side of SEPTA expands capacity when needed by accommodating standees. It's a basic rule of transit. Why do rail commuters complain so loudly when THEY have to stand? My solution would be to place 2-2 seats and stanchions, handholds, etc and that's that. 2-2 would allow more comfortable seats and wider aisles for those who must stand. None of the SEPTA Regional Rail lines is all that long that a standing ride is out of the question, and most would have seats opening up long before their terminals. (I can speak from several experiences of my own and those related by others on NJT corridor trips where I/others stood from NY Penn to Princeton Jct - it's not the end of the world!)
My experience with the 3 seaters is that they are barely comfortable for anyone. On a recent ride on a SEPTA train with a 7-year old and a 5-year old, the older guy rode in the middle and he did not have a whole lot of room (and I'm not a wide person, nor was the fellow occupying the window seat). I have seen riders stand rather than try and squeeze into the middle. By consequence, the 2-seater isn't all that generous either.
The MP's and RDG MU's were much better with nice 2-2's. A lesson can be learned here.
Jim is correct. In addition to low bridges, the entire Center City Tunnel is too tight for bi-levels. Suburban Station's connection to 30th and through 30th is also a low-wire location. And then there would be too much capacity for most operating hours.
If someone's taking a vote, put me down for wider and fewer seats and more cars on trains in the peak hour.
Count me in for wider, more comfortable seats and more cars during peak hours too. It's the only way you're going to get more people onto the trains. And make sure those seats have high seatbacks. Most of the people who ride trains are much taller than the Keebler Elves.
IMHO, it's the DVARP just looking for yet another thing to whine about. This is the same organization that's been complaining the SEPTA is all electric. I've read their various rants on various subjects, and I don't think they've got all their oars in the water.
BTW, while bilevel MUs have been in use in Europe for quite some time, they're a much different design from the US style bilevel car, which is a design that should have been done away with 20 years ago, because it's way too inefficient at loading and unloading at stations. Watch the LIRR or MBTA cars at terminal some day.
IMHO, the only reason the LIRR went with bilevels was Prendergast was from Chicago origionally, and figured Metra's slow diesels and crappy car design should be brought to the LIRR. We would have been much better off on LI had the LIRR electrified to Port Jeff and Patchauge, and reduced the remainder of the system to either DMUs or shuttle busses. Probbably cheaper, too.
"Metra's slow diesels and crappy car design."
Slow? Just because they're not electric and thus don't have the same jackrabbit ACCELERATION doesn't mean Metra trains don't achieve good speed. The 28 miles from Naperville to Chicago are covered in 33 minutes by diesel-powered express trains, an average speed close to a mile a minute (60mph). That works out to a significantly higher maximum speed when you realize that the last mile or so into Union station is through the Amtrak yards and the maze of tracks and switches under the Post Office.
As to bad design, I ride Metra twice every workday, for years now, and I've never felt uncomfortable, even in the upper gallery seating and even when I was 30-40 pounds heavier than I am now. It seems to me that the original designers (for the CB&Q, IIRC) did a very good job of fitting as many people as possible into the given space without making seating cramped or blocking ingress/egress.
Some members of DVARP believe that going to 2+2 seating will increase ridership at least 5%, because, they vouch, people are turned off to SEPTA because of the 3 seaters, but would not be turned off to SEPTA if SEPTA had 2+2 seating. I find this logic very stupid because the people who don't ride SEPTA will not be aware of this change, and therefore will not even know to ride. Also, the system is parking constrained.
This does not mean 2+2 seating is a bad idea. I'm not sure if the middle seat is frequently used, if people just stand instead, SEPTA can go to 2+@ seating without increasing the fleet size. My favorite alternative involves 2 quarter point doors, 3+2 seating from the quarter points to the end of the car, and 2+2 in the middle. More room for standees also.
As for DVARP complaining that SEPTA is all electric, the rationale is that if SEPTA got some dual mode locomotives, there would be less of a barrier to expand service. Example: Quakertown and West Chester are not electrified. If SEPTA needed to electrify there before they could start running service, it would cost much more to start such a service.
Frankly, I don't like that position, and wished DVARP spent more time worrying about increasing frequencies on routes already used. Whenever I say this, someome answers me with "during railworks." I don't know what railworks did, so if someone could clue me in, I would be thankful.
As an infrequent user of the Regional Rail system (mainly because it doesn't go where I go and it's damn expensive in the peaks!), I find the capacity issue an interesting one. In my limited experiences, and in the much more extensive experiences of friends who use RR on a daily basis, there is capacity on many trains, even in the peaks. (Granted, there are several other trains which are very popular, but that's the breaks.) Thus, I don't see how the 3-seater issue factors in if many trains have capacity.
It's the same logic SEPTA uses in bus assignments. My line is served by 60' articulated buses all the time (since Allegheny Depot has nothing but artics). 6 routes and part of another are served by this depot. That means that all runs from Allegheny get artics. This works well on my line in the peaks and midday, but not at all in evenings, sometimes on Saturday, rarely on Sunday - in the slack periods, a lot of metal and empty seats get hauled around for no good reason. Same on RR.
The 'Railworks' comment, I believe, refers to SEPTA's shutdown of electric service on the Reading side when the main line was rebuilt in '92-'93. The Reading side lines ended at Fern Rock where riders had to transfer to the Broad Street Subway for the continuation of their journeys to Center City. (Before anyone gets too excited, R6 and R7 Reading side didn't run - R6 had some express buses and a few localized bus shuttles, R7 had some of the latter.) Some commuters, upset at the subway arrangement, forced SEPTA to run some dieselized service on R3 and R5 Reading side using a couple of ex-NJT/EL U34's and the push-pull cars. The very limited runs (usually 1 per line per peak - inbound AM, outbound PM) started/ended at 30th St lower level and accessed the freight-only West Park and Port Richmond brances of then Conrail to get to Wayne Junction, then followed the usual routings from there. This proved to DVARP that SEPTA could run diesel trains.
In my opinion, DVARP people are very knowledgable but also very opinionated and the only 'right' folks anywhere (as in 'we know the answers but SEPTA won't listen to us...). It gets a little tired after a while. Unfortunately, the local press, particularly the Inquirer, have started to use DVARP's leader as a resource in rail/transit matters. You may have seen his spin on things in the articles on the 3-seaters.
As a rider of the R6 from Norristown, I think we should have at least
one more car on the express in the morning and in the afternoon
We have 3 cars, and it is tight, tight, tight.
Why can't the proposed Schyukill Metro just run as a diesel into
30th St. The stations are already there, they just need to be
spruced up.
I would love to drive to Royersford instead of Norristown
since I live in Graterford, (no, not the prison) it would be a much
quicker drive
As it is it takes me 1/2 an hour to go 12 miles after getting off the train.
Septa are you listening?
The Inquirer has weighed in again today in an editorial on this subject. It's fairly short but interesting. Unfortunately, though, it is giving more credence to the DVARP 'experts'.
Here is the Inquirer editorial.
Has anyone who has been near the Stillwell Avenue terminal lately noticed if the B&B Carousel (just east of the station) is still there and apparently in condition to reopen for the next season?
I know the old gent who owned it for years died and I'd hate to lose that carousel. There are only so many old fashioned carousels with real mechanical organs left (I think the one in Prospect Park is another).
I've listened to that organ man and boy for a half century. In past years if I was in Coney Island with a girl (or in recent years with my kids) I tried to make it a point to take her/them on a ride to give the owner a few bucks to make up for all the times I just stood in front of the organ and listened for free.
BTW, in case their are any band/carousel organ freaks out there, I understand that some organs have been built new or modified to use MIDI devices to control the organs, instead of or along with, the music rolls. A perfect melding of old and new technology!
BTW, in case their are any band/carousel organ freaks out there, I understand that some organs have been built new or modified to use MIDI devices to control the organs, instead of or along with, the music rolls. A perfect melding of old and new technology!
I resemble that remark!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Last summer after the owner had died I asked the clerk at Denny's Ice Cream if she had heard anything about B&B's future. She said that there was a partner who was now operating the ride who previously wasn't much involved with the actual day to day chores. Hopefully, this means it will continue to operate.
It will be on my site...
r68a_5200.tripod.com
within an hour. Post this information on whichever board that may find it useful. I don't want to make a million seperate accounts to post 1 message. Thanks!
Wow ... COOL BEANS! The goodies for BVE just keep rolling out of the yards ...
awesome! I love this game! I also just got your R142, R142A, and R143. Gonna try 'em out later.
Um, what's BVE?
Heh. I'm going to have to program this link as a keyboard macro ...
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
It's neat, it's cool, it's FREE and ya gotta have it. :)
I'll be taking e-mail requests for the train for now. Tripod's being a b-t-h. I'll let you know when it's up.
It's up!!! Enjoy guys!
STUNNING! I especially like the two-fisted operation on it - went and modified Rob Marrero's NYCT-E that he just released to use the r68a train and now I can keep the schedule! Who says Hippos are slow? :)
THANK YOU, ED! VERY NICE CHOOCHOO!
Thanks.
I can even keep schedule with the R68A following the speed restriction signs.
Heh. And yet it really DOES seem slower than the office R32 that comes with Rob's layout ... go figure ... only provides PROFF that there is a time/space ripple around the hippos. Heh.
The R32 uses specs of the R36 included with the Flushing Line. The specs are very high with beautiful acceleration way beyond what is rolling on the rails such as top speed of 94 KPH which is roughly 55 MPH and god knows they can go that fast. But if you guys really need one, I can create a pre-1995 R68A for ya but there'd be no speedometer to look at. :- 0
I wouldn't mess with it, it works ... I found it amusing though how it SEEMS to be slower than the 32 and yet makes the schedule, thus the time/space warp thing.
And as we ALL know, aside from the missing shunt step that would give it more speed, you need to work in an increasing red glow on the bottom edge of the windshield as the grids start to cherry out in coast. Heh. After a kilometer in coast, perhaps some smoke rising from down below. Yeah, that's the ticket. :)
[The specs are very high with beautiful acceleration way beyond what is rolling on the rails such as top speed of 94 KPH which is roughly 55 MPH]
Actually, 55 MPH is more like 88 km/h. 94 km/h is about 58.4 MPH.
Oh yeah, I forgot my conversions. Nevertheless, a pre and post 1995 train can't be compared.
Yeah I did a run on the E line with the R68A, definately no speedy express runs. Also had difficulty getting it to stop, the brakes are slow. Just like the real "hippos"! :-0
The brakes are different from my R142 and R142A. On my R68A, you can only add brakes and keep adding without releasing partially or the braking fades away. If you do release partially, release it all and quickly grab more. And the more you pump (B1 -> B8 -> B1 -> B8), the braking rate increases. This is how it works on the REAL ones eh?
Heh. Reminds me of the old R9 lappers ... VERY realistic though, ya done WONDERFUL in making it operate like the real thing. The one thing that I've especially appreciated about BVE and your subway train files is that I've had friends who thought running trains was a piece of cake, totally beside themselves with personal self-envy that they got a train rolling at 58 MPH and then when they try to stop, they either go BVE and lockup (I LOVE your "real time penalty chargeup") or have ten cars plus two carlengths out of the station when it finally stops after passing a homeball. Heh.
Gives me the opportunity to explain to the uninitiated that ANY idiot can make a train GO, it takes talent to make it STOP. :)
I love the R68A on BVE! Great job!
I know, his R32 is great but stopping it is pretty hard.
Actually, it's VERY realistic ... anybody can pull a controller handle and make it go ... the REAL secret of school car is "how do I stop this thing?" ... AND "on the mark." In real life, ain't as easy as it looks, even in BVE ... You learn when to hold them, when to fold 'em in TA duty. :)
I've had more difficulty stopping the R68A than the R32.
It seems there isn't enough brake pressure sometimes, which leads to overshooting platforms. I'm back to using the R32s and 36's until I can figure the R68A out.
School car! Heh. When you have "slow brakes" you learn to grab a bit more entering, ease it, then go for the pull again ... you'll get it. Betcha it brings on a new respect for the monkey in the refrigerator carton up front who has to do this all for real, eh? :)
I wonder if building new elevated lines is a viable suggestion. You'd ramp up north of 63rd and from south of the 59th.
These would not be ugly Jamaica Ave type els, but rather, slender all-concrete structures.
I think it's a good idea, but it would be a non-starter in Manhattan. Put it this way, outside of Manhattan, NIMBYs are powerful enough to oppose and often stymie planned projects. In Manhattan, espeically on the Upper East Side, they're so powerful the officials know better than to even propose an el.
Its a war of who has the last shoot. Moses did it, why can't Kalikow do it?
A two-track el, supported on a single concrete pylon would not be aesthetically offensive. The avenue, of course, would be divided, but that's manageable.
I think all it takes is someone with the testicular fortitude to seriously propose it.
Besides 2nd Av, a cross-town shuttle running river-to-river above 34th St. would be welcome, and would be considerably cheaper than tunneling under the existing Herald Sq. stack.
Bad idea. You want this project to be as politically safe as possible, and only a subway will do it. Right now there's no local opposition, no NIMBY to speak of, no issues. We need it to stay that way. Otherwise, the subway will be dead in the water (again).
Sometimes a proposal like that requires balls if there is a good reason for it; in the ideal world where people think rationally all the time, that might be a good idea.
Here, in NYC of 2002, it would be an act of sheer, unadulterated, stupidity. That's why it hasn't been proposed.
The only possible el line that could be built in Manhattan today would be if they extended the 7 west to Javits Center, then ran it south to the WTC area via a (concrete) el above the center median along 12th Ave. and West Street. The high volume of traffic on the street and the lack of any residences or standard sidewalk on the Hudson River side make it pedestrian unfiendly to begin with, so the NIBMY battles would be lower (but they would be there). Given the current discussions of boosting mass transit service to lower Manhattan, if the el was combined the pedestrian overpasses at the station stop to access the planned Hudson River Park (and the line would also make the park more accessable to people in other sections of the city besides Chelsea, the Village and SoHo) it might stand a chance under the current political climate.
That's a really cool idea. Where would the tunnel portal be?
Maybe the WTC reconstruction could take such a project into account.
I would think the tunnel portal would be at the far south end of the west side rail yard site, since the area to the north is where the proposed 2012 Olympic/Jets stadium would be built.
Assuming the 34th St. station for the 7 train was at 11th Ave. and you wanted to get the tracks over to 12th Ave. as soon as possible, the portal would have to be pointed west around 30th St. between 11th and 12th Aves., roughly where the High Line tracks come out of the yard (and while I think using the High Line for part of the el line to 14th would be a cool idea, I realize that would create a tsunami of NIMBYism in the from Chelsea residents and people who want the line designated as park space...).
The old High Line would make a perfect West Side el -- in fact, that's what it used to be.
Too bad this and other transit improvements (such as light rail) were not factored in to the recently completed reconstruction of the West Side Hway.
the lack of any residences or standard sidewalk on the Hudson River side
Whaaaa ... ??? No residences, true, but the Hudson River Park has provided an esplanade for pedestrians and a separate routing for cyclists and bladers. It is heavily used on weekends, and serves some commuting function weekdays. You can get from Battery Park all the way to Riverside Park on the river side of the West Side Highway now.
True you can go up it, but nobody lives on the west side of 12th Avenue or West Street and what sidewalks there on the west side of the street aren't your standard right-in-front-of-the-buildings stuff. Having no homes on one side of the street lowers the NIMBY pool by about 50 percent.
Combine that with the width of 12th Ave./West and it would be possible to stick a two-track concrete el down the middle of the highway and still have it relatively isolated from the pedestrian areas on either side of the street (and the buildings on the east side), unlike older els which almost touch nearby buildings in some place. The overpasses at the stations would also make crossing the street less of a pain then it is now, which would be another plus (I've only crossed recently at Chelsea Piers, but if 23rd St. is any indication it's not as bad as Queens Blvd., but close).
When you look at 1Av from 34th to 14th, you see a potential wonderful r.o.w. along the east side of the avenue alongside the hospitals. This could even go up to 42nd without too much difficulty. You downramp to subway before 42nd, and then go west at some point around the UN, into the 2Av stubway.
Once the stubway is built to a terminus south of 63rd, you could start talking about an el. Yes, subway is just about always better, but an el is considerably cheaper.
When you look at 1Av from 34th to 14th, you see a potential wonderful r.o.w. along the east side of the avenue alongside the hospitals.
Why should convalescing patients expect peace an quiet?
Yes, subway is just about always better, but an el is considerably cheaper.
Have you factored in any decline in property values into your cost analysis?
"Have you factored in any decline in property values into your cost analysis?"
Non-issue. There are virtually no modern examples of property value decline following construction of (modern-type, not 1930's style) transit trains, either below or above ground. Property values rise steeply near stations, and remain stable elsewhere. Property values can decline, however, for other coincident reasons.
There are virtually no modern examples of property value decline following construction of (modern-type, not 1930's style) transit trains, either below or above ground.
There are virtually no modern examples of elevated lines being built over an existing street in a crowded or built up area. Most of such construction has been along a private right of way-usually an old railroad row or through "virgin" land.
Some portions of BART are built over city streets in Oakland. Most of the elevated portions, however, are essentially parts of freeway right-of-ways.
Bad idea. You want this project to be as politically safe as possible, and only a subway will do it.
Would you agree that any project that calls for elevated expansion should be rejected or only those that are within walking distance of existing subways?
Non-sequiter. Your question bears no relation to the discussion.
>>A two-track el, supported on a single concrete pylon would not be aesthetically offensive.
<<
D'uh, are you forgetting the NOISE?
Modern raised pylon designs are very quiet. Noise really isn't an issue.
I don't see why they couldn't build some Airtrain-type lines over major highways as they have done over the Van Wyke.
Just about everyone here would slaver like one of Pavlov's dogs if the money were available to build els over the LIE and GCP, with suitable East River tube and subway connections into Manhattan.
In the boroughs, where there's more space between highway lanes and houses, that works. In Manhattan, there are a couple of places where that might work too, but politically, it's dangerous.
These would not be ugly Jamaica Ave type els, but rather, slender all-concrete structures.
The problem is that so far these "slender" all-concrete structures make as much noise as the ugly Jamaica Ave type els. It remains to be seen what the AirTrain will due, especially at the Atlantic Ave turn.
The second question is how well these structures will age both structurally and aesthetically. Concrete tends to capture dirt and grime and cannot be easilly cleaned.
I agree about concrete capturing grime, but then, so do steel els, which have to be scrubbed and painted from time-to-time.
As for noise, welded rails and gentle curves help. Acoustical engineers have developed some other tricks. I concede, however, the noise is an issue, and if it's to connect to existing subways (for yards, maintenence), rubber wheels are not an option.
"The problem is that so far these "slender" all-concrete structures make as much noise as the ugly Jamaica Ave type els. It
remains to be seen what the AirTrain will due, especially at the Atlantic Ave turn."
False. Evidently you haven't been to Miami and lived next to Metrorail. I have.
Know what you're talking about before you post...(an old problem for you).
False. Evidently you haven't been to Miami and lived next to Metrorail. I have.
Most sound abatement procedures for rail operation use extensive use of rubber mounts. The problem is that rubber loses its vibration damping properties as it ages and becomes brittle. Freezing temperatures greatly contribute to such aging. Think about the rubber seals on cars and how they eage in the north and south.
How many days of near or sub-zero temperature did you experience during your stay in Miami?
Here are some links that connect to some of the pictures that I have taken at Metuchen last summer while railfanning.
NJT + AMTRAK at Metuchen.
Connection of Comet III and IV
Continuation of freight led by CONRAIL loco. #2910.
NJ TRANSIT's ALP-44 loco. #4415
A look at one switch at Metuchen station.
Enjoy and comment as you wish.
1) What is that AMTRAK locomotive in the "blurred" picture?
Please copy and paste the link from "Source" if links do not work.
: )
That's an E60MA.
Any details of the EGOMA loco.?
He said E60MA, not EGOMA.
He said E60MA, not EGOMA.
What is that supposed to mean?
E60MA is a model of electric locomotive that Amtrak uses.
David
Went there today and photographed them along with a 2:00PM westbound train. Here are the car numbers for those of you who partake in this:
(W)9717-9726-9481-9272-9194-9058-9193-9592-9359-9048(E)
There is one married pair in there, but is separeted. (9193-94)
Also I guess this line isn't a big prioirity for welded rail noticing the numerous jointed rail. A couple of rails I saw had the year "1925" stamped a foot or so to the right of the rail joints. This was running rail, not guard rail. So chanches are the old G-5s steam engines pounded those rails !
Bill "Newkirk"
Could, would, and should the trucks from an M-1 fit and work on the SOAC set up at the Shore Mueseum?
avid
8 foot wheelbase in exchange for one about 6 feet.
>>Could, would, and should the trucks from an M-1 fit and work on the SOAC set up at the Shore Mueseum?<<
Don't really know. How about this, some trucks from a scrapped R-44 ? Maybe they would work ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, I guess they would fit better size wise. I didn't know the M-1s were a larger wheel base. 8 ft for the m-1s as opposed to 6 ft for the r/44s. They'll fit, now if they would only be able to propell the car? Are there spares to-go?
avid
So are they junking M1's already? The M7's haven't arrived yet...have they?
:-) Andrew
No those cars had fires/accidents. the M-1s are still around although the arrival of the M-7s will soon change that.
>>So are they junking M1's already? The M7's haven't arrived yet...have they?<<
If you own a car, take a ride out there and see for yourself. Take one look and you'll see that none of those cars can be repaired and returned to service. Especially with a new fleet on the horizon.
Bill "Newkirk"
I went out by bike yesterday. They look like the same cars that were formerly on the siding along the Babylon Branch near Hillside.
>>I went out by bike yesterday. They look like the same cars that were formerly on the siding along the Babylon Branch near Hillside.<<
I was there twice so far. Did you see a guy in a brown Ford Fairmont station wagon paked by the ROW. I feel this guy is a ununiformed security guard keeping an eye on the wrecks. That's how I felt.
Sounds like a long bike trip, how many miles to make the trip ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I didn't see anyone around in a brown wagon or otherwise. Of course I was with 11 friends on bikes and they are not all railfans. Their main interest was to get out to Orient Point so we didn't slow down. I'll be making the trip alone on the next warm day. I can think of a couple of trophies I'd like for my basement.
Going east, we zig-zagged north and south. Once we left Orient Point we headed petty much due-west until we stopped for lunch in Port Jeff. We covered about 160 miles, all together.
By the way, not many of the LIRR crews know that the cars were moved out there.
I first saw them on my way to work a few weeks ago. I was totally pissed off that the LIRR would just leave them there to die like that. I pass by the trainset every Saturday, so I'll keep my eye on them for any new developments. You're right, they will not be going back into revenue service. Shameful.
I guess you never saw the M-1s piled on top of each other on the old trackage north-east of Shea Stadium, along side the Van Wyck - years ago. These cars appear to be the same ones that have been 'stored' along the Babylon branch main Line adjacent to the old Holben yard.
I guess you never saw the M-1s piled on top of each other on the old trackage north-east of Shea Stadium, along side the Van Wyck - years ago.
Was that part of the old Whitestone branch?
>>Was that part of the old Whitestone branch?<<
Yes
Bill "Newkirk"
It's an LIRR tradition of sorts. around 97-98 there were about 14 MU cars layed up for dead in LIC's freight yard A, across from amtraks sunnyside yard. the too were battered cars good for nothing but scrap, and were left to rot for about a year before being loaded onto piggyback cars and sent for scrap (during that year, of course, they were coated top to bottom with graffiti and anything of value hauled off...).
before that, there were dozens of diesel cars, even an FA unit at one point. there's still an alcohol car, though it's been moved towards the tunnel exits near skillman av...
There's a few photos of it all here: http://ltvsquad.com/Missions/Other/PAP1/PostApoc.php
I don't ride the LIRR as much as I used to, so forgive me
if I'm a little out of touch concerning the scrapping of
the M1 cars. But sheesh, to leave them there in a
residential neighborhood. People who live near the
tracks have to look at that mess every day.
I don't ride the LIRR as much as I used to, so forgive me
if I'm a little out of touch concerning the scrapping of
the M1 cars. But sheesh, to leave them there in a
residential neighborhood. People who live near the
tracks have to look at that mess every day.
There's only a handful of residences within sight of the cars.
Yeah, I guess that the cars obstruct their pristine views of the old furniture and appliances that have been discarded in the nearby woods.
Train Dude: Bring em all out to the range at Calverton for an enjoyable day of destruction. Just don't forget to tow 6398 with its contents intact too. CI Peter
What's the significance of that car?
Ahhhh. I got your attention!!!! There is a possibility that 6398 may be sitting as an office at Concourse. The entire system is loaded as a parking lot for Bombardier...time to take the 'dead motors' to Calverton for some 'downrange action.' CI Peter
I thought 6398 might have been the one that was seen sending Smoke Signals on Wednesday AM in Concourse Yard. I understand they want to park a few more trainsets in my 'long-term' parking area. Too many redfins though. We'll see what Monday brings.
Drop the keys and handles in an unmarked black bag at the 205th St layup end and I'll take care of 'em for ya. :)
Love to do just that but as long as they're feeding the meter, can't turn away payin' customers.
Heh. Just checking to see if this thing's on ... ooooooooo ... handles. :)
I'll give ya five bucks. Heh.
I never even go to that side of the yard any more. After all this time, I'd likely need a passport and shots. I have 45 of the interlopers taking up long-term residency and now they want us to babysit some more. Makes one wonder.
Same logic I walked away from years ago ... here's how it works and I'll bet the same meatheadism applies today ... "well, lemme see ... the D is cut back in midtown, so that's X fewer trains laid up, plenty of room for these ..."
And yeah, I remember the downslope from your competitor's operation coming out into sunlight briefly before disappearing under the ledge. I'm sure they'll let your toys run by there to 205th still as long as you remember to deflate your shoes. :)
Two weeks from now I'll be up and close on the other side of the tracks with my AFL-CIO brothers speaking to them in it the native language of the AFL-CIO 'Wooblys.' Of course, the parking tracks inside will be a little closer to me. CI Peter
R-16 6398 is at the Trolley Museum of New York at Kingston. Is that the car we're talking about here?
David
6398 is at the museum of unwanted foreign airships and Bombardier R142s in Bronx, New York. CI Peter
Then the 6398 in question is an R-142, not the museum R-16. Am I right?
David
You are correct! 6398 is an odd car R142 that wound up in Train Dude Land. Something is screwey.......I thought you need a A B pair to do something here....anyway, rumor has it this one car is an office for Bombadier. CI Peter
I don't know about that. I do know I was talking to the D line Supt. in the yard about 8:30 AM when we saw a huge plume of white smoke coming fdrom 27Apple track. It turned out to be a 142 with indigestion. Didn't get the car number - didn't care. I thought that 6398 might have been the one........
Yah Mon It's GHANDJA Mon. Don't do this to me...don't burn em yet. Six months with the Rooskies on #5 Redbirds??? CI Peter
Fortunately when the LAHT version sat on 27A, smoke was no problem. Maybe it was 5398.
Word was that 6398 may have been converted to some kind of an office by Bomba. Perhaps all the R142 trainsets in storage around the system should be towed upstate and then be brought back in revenue earning condition. The accident my crew had at 239th caught managements attention....two battery box explosions later and neither the State Department or FRA have anything to say about the control of quality. Bomba is Bombas own worst enemy...now we have the Vichy Canadians poking about. CI Peter
>>I was totally pissed off that the LIRR would just leave them there to die like that<<
Leave them to die ?, they're dead anyway !!
Due to the age and damage to those cars, it doesn't pay to repair them, especially when M-7s are on the horizon. If you had a 20 year old car, rusting away ready for the junk heap, would you pay good money to restore it or junk it and buy a new one. The LIRR is using that same thinking and they're right.
Why be pissed? It's damaged or burned out M-1s picked clean of parts, it's not a human life. Same things with the redbirds. There are other things in life to be pissed at, junked trains are not one of them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Calverton: The Rifle Range. Are the cars available downrange? I've always steered clear of there...they opped the 'Polish target range.' A target in the middle on a post with everyone shooting at it from an outside perimeter. Just like the 'Polish firing squad.'
Is #9592 the one with the blue stripe, the one that hit the crane at Hewlett last year?
wayne
>>Is #9592 the one with the blue stripe, the one that hit the crane at Hewlett last year? <<
Yes it is, check it out when you can. Lotta damage.
Bill "Newkirk"
NYCT has just lost their appeal in the booth closing case. When I get details I will post. The appeal wass held on 1/25/02.
Well at least they lost that. They won out on the removal of the assists, and screwed with the L/R schedules. What more can they possibly do?
-Stef
Well at least the part time booths are staying for now unless this was the pulbic hearing issue and they will rush public hearings out there.
Once more at 71st/Cont. the part-time booth entrance in the middle (it was closed Sat. Morning) had all 4 MVM and not one would accept cash!
true- the issue here was the need for a public hearing but it means that for now at least the part-time booths stay open.
Based on recent (9/11) events most New Yorkers want the booths, except for Pigs (and I respect his opinion), and ultimately I think they'll stay open due to public pressure. I recall Chinatown residents wanted the shuttle train extended to West 4 and the M to Brooklyn in mid-days and later at night. They won both.
Another example is the Franklin Shuttle- MTA/NYCT wanted to demolish and replace with bus transfer to existing bus lines. The locals screamed and we now have a new Franklin Shuttle.
I agree that some part-time booths dont do much but they are still needed for security. Cameras have blind zones. Every so often I read in the paper or see on TV where airport security is so terrific that people have walked onto the plane with forbidden items and went unchallenged. Is this what we want for the subway- of course not!
Yeah Pigs, I know you'll respond but remember- when some miscreant turns you into bacon will the MVM call for help when the knife is in your back or you are having a sudden asthma attack or sudden heart problems. Will the phone work if you can even crawl to the phone.
Sure- and I have a subway line for sale--it runs on third ave in the bronx! I'll let you haver it for only 10 million :-)
Don't ask that question too loud. Transit might come up with something!
Checked out this area today and found some info , if you may want to check this out on you own.
Thurbur Lumber which I reported was the old Miller Place station is incorrect, it's the old Rocky Point station building. Funny thing is the lumber yard is built on the ROW and the high tension power lines do no go over but around the property. Hmmm, that's strange.
Shoreham, where the old stone bridge is. Yep, it's still there. It's on Woodville Rd a couple of blocks north of Rte.25A.
I crossed the ROW several times and still is unchanged as far as building on it is concerned. Who knows, maybe the LIRR still owns it and leases it to LIPA.
If you read my post on those junk M-1s at Calverton. Just east of the RR crossing is a train shelter. Perhaps this was the old Calverton station ? If so, when did it close ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Is this new ROW built within the last 10 years?
>>Is this new ROW built within the last 10 years?<<
No it was abandoned around 1937. It has been disused ever since except for carrying LIPA power lines. The Wading River extension was single tracked from Port Jeff to Wading River.
Bill "Newkirk"
Here's some more info on the Wading River branch.
It closed during the '80s, some time before the opening of electrification to Ronkonkoma, along with Holtsville in about the same time frame.
Wasn't much anyway. In those days there was only one train a day for most of the time. Interestingly, the cover of a 1978 East End timetable shows the main line (thick line) to Riverhead and Greenport as coming from BABYLON. This was the road-rail bus service. The stations of Medford, Holtsville, Taphank and Calverton are shown as a skinny little line coming from Jamaica.
It closed during the '80s, some time before the opening of electrification to Ronkonkoma, along with Holtsville in about the same time frame.
Minor nitpick, Holtsville closed just a few years ago. It was one of several stations with too little ridership to justify the high-level platforms needed to accomodate the new bilevel coaches.
I started riding the LIRR from Medford a year or so before Holtsville closed. Two people usually boarded the sole morning train at Holtsville, on rare occasions there was a third.
>>It closed during the '80s, some time before the opening of electrification to Ronkonkoma<<
Thanks for the info, only a passenger shelter remains. there isn't any signs of a platform be it concrete or blacktop.
Bill "Newkirk"
WOW... I just did a days work on the E... ok it was on the BVE... one can dream cant he?? :)
whoever did the e route should be very proud... i wish we could get him or her to do all the routes :) I WOULD NEVER LEAVE MY HOUSE HA
anywhoo i like it :)
we should do multiplayer bve someday
Yes! Great route! He's our very own R36# 9346. Multiplayer BVE would be cool. I can run my train behind you and sound the horn and see if you hear it. Ahhh... radio communications would be great.
I'm against the idea of multiplayer ... because you just KNOW SeaBits Fred'll be on the horn demanding battery runs around everybody for his damned N train. :)
Then there might as well be some sort of switchman program as well! That should be fun.
You can find that here ...
http://www.trainmaster.com/
(not BVE compatible of course)
Looks like I'd need Train Dispatcher as well... This'll cost a fortune...
Heh. A small price to pay to become ... "King of the BMT" ... heh.
Damn it, whenever you mention a route, mention where you got it... none of my bookmarks have it.
Two things have kept me from getting addicted... no routes I actually ride (E would fix this) and I'm a sucker for 3D environments where I can look around. MSTS is just easier to get immersed in.
E train for BVE is right here:
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/
And the TA frowns on T/O's going for the "out of train experience" while on duty and the train is in motion. :)
hey you are driving a train with passengers... you focus on the environment on your day off!
(ok im too into this)
Thanks for all the good words on my latest creation: the E train from Jamaica Center to World Trade Center for BVE.
Now that the MTA says it is going to demolish the Cortlandt St/WTC station on the 1/9 and rebuild it at some later time, I have a question. Have any other subway stations been not just closed, but also destroyed, in the past?
Yes on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle the Dean Street Station was closed and torn down when the line was rebuilt several years ago.
In additon during the expansion of the DeKalb Avenue Brigton and 4th Avenue Line station the Myrtle Avenue Southbound station was completely torn down.The Northbound platform still remains
Thank You
You can still see tile on the Southbound side that was on the wall next to the track (i.e. not the passenger side wall, I'm talking about the wall you look at across the tracks).
You can also see similar tile on the northbound track. In fact, you can actually see that tile from a train.
- Lyle Goldman
Let me see,elevated:
Dean street
3 avenue line(I can't remember all of the stations)
180 street
subway:
Myrtle avenue
Polo grounds shuttle station
13th Ave and Ft Hamilton Pkway on the Culver Shuttle.
Also the original end of the Jamaica El(J)can be included among the listed stations demolished.
I assume you mean subway, as in completely underground? And by demolished I assume you mean obliterated or filled in?
Myrtle Avenue southbound on the Manhattan Bridge Line.
City Hall station on the Beach Pneumatic and probably the station at the other end as well.
The excacation for a short stretch of the Second Avenue subway on the Lower East Side is supposed to have been filled in, but didn't include a station.
Can't think of any others in New York. The trolley tunnel under Ocean Parkway was filled in with rubble, probably to the roof line and sealed.
Cortland will have the distinction of being the first demolished subway station to be rebuilt, though odds are it won't be called Cortlandt Street anymore, unless the city decides to restore the grid on the plot (unlikely).
unless the city decides to restore the grid on the plot (unlikely)
Why you figure unlikely? They probably won't restore ALL of it, but looks like Dey Street will be the route for the PA's underground transit connector, so it may be replicated on the surface as well. And the new 7 WTC is apparently designed so Greenwich could be reinstated.
Keeping the Cortlandt name for the IRT station makes sense, since the BMT Cortlandt station will retain its name (I presume). UNLESS (a) it gets called something like "Hudson Terminal Transit Center"; or (b) they rename it something like "WTC Memorial Station".
Wasn't there another station along the route of the present GC shuttle?
Of course there are all those long-gone stations on now-demolished elevated lines.
Wasn't there another station along the route of the present GC shuttle?
No.
If you're willing to bend your definition a bit to below ground level grade-separated stations (but not covered), I could add Woodruff Avenue on the 2-track Brighton Line, replaced by Parkside Avenue in the Dual Contracts, as well as the original Church Avenue and Prospect Park stations, both of which were below grade.
Honorable mention: Consumers Park, but it was really simply removed with no attempt to fill in or cover anything.
If I recall correctly, the GC Shuttle was once part of an IRT line which ran under Seventh Av, across 42nd Street, then turned south under Park Av. These service connections were cancelled, though one line's tracks still lead into the Shuttle (good thing, since the cars need a way to get back to a maintenance yard).
Did what is now "the shuttle" ever have an intermediate station between TQ and GCS ?
Hell no. But it did have another track.
No. It has been a nonstop run from Grand Central to Times Square ever since Day One.
You recall incorrectly. The IRT line went up Park, across 42nd and up Broadway. The Lexington and 7th Avenue lines were built in 1918.
One interesting thing about Cortlandt Street is that it is not the first station to have been destroyed by casualty. That dubious honor applies to an elevated IRT station in the Bronx - I'm almost certain it's Simpson Street - that was destroyed by fire in (IIRC) the late 1980's.
You're incorrect in that statement. It was the Intervale Ave. station on the IRT that was destroyed by fire. It was later repaired and reopened.
#3 West End Jeff
How many stations in the subway system have had their name changed?
Of 1904 and post-1904 stations, not a great deal. But on older ex-BRT lines, too numerous to remember offhand and to list here.
But, for example, on the Brighton Line, some changes for stations in exactly or approximately the same place include Parkside Ave. was Woodruff Ave., Cortelyou was Ave C., Newkirk was South Midwood, Avenue H was Fiske Terrace, Avenue J was Manhattan Terrace, Avenue M was Elm Avenue.
Some really old West End Line station names are on this page.
Many Queens stations with both current "numbered" street names and old "named" street names have had the "named" names dropped., e.g., 46th - Bliss St. on the 7 is now only 46th. Sometimes, this has happened 75 years after the street "name" was dropped. In at least one case, it has yet to happen (23rd St-Ely Ave.) There are others in Brooklyn -- old Van Sicklen on the F is now Neptune Ave. Most terminus stations have had neighborhood names added, e.g., 241st is now Wakefield-241st. There have been many threads on this topic.
Lest we forget, Malbone St. is now Prospect Park on the Brighton line.
Are you sure of that Steve? Can anyone confirm that as fact? I was not aware of t hat. Good Lord, Prospect Park Station was my favorite stop of all. It was where we got off to go to Ebbets Field to see my beloved Brooklyn Dodgers. I never knew they were the same stop.
The impact of the Malbone St. wreck on Nov. 1, 1918 was such that the thoroughfare was renamed Empire Blvd. (although a short section remained Malbone St.) and the subway station became Prospect Park.
And speaking of Ebbets Field, it was used as a triage center for injured passengers in the aftermath of the Malbone St. wreck.
The subway station was always named Prospect Park, it had never been known as Malbone Street.
If the station had been known as Malbone Street? Why not change it consistent with the street to Empire Blvd?
Prospect Park Station on the Brighton was once known as Malbone St. After the train crash in 1918 there was pressure to change the name of the street so it was changed to Empire Blvd. And the station was changed to Prospect Park because the park is right there.
The station now known as Prospect Park on the Brighton Line was called that right back to the opening of the line.
However, I have references to some variants. In the early years it was sometimes referred to as "Prospect Park, Willink Entrance" or variations of that to indicate where in Prospect Park--this is where the Willink Mansion once stood.
I have a contemporay reference (c.1908-16) to the station being referred to as Malbone Street in the context of the rebuilding work that was to be done. But other references of the same period say Prospect Park. I can say with certainty that the station itself was not changed from Malbone Street to Prospect Park because of the wreck, or the renaming of Malbone Street to Empire Blvd.
Are you using any particular reference in saying the station was Malbone Street?
Not quite! The station is and was Prospect Park. Malbone Street is today's Empire Blvd(the street where Wendy's fronts and across the street from the botanic garden)
I stand corrected. Should have read your response before answering Fred's inquiry.
I think you mean Intervale Av, which is on the #2 and was closed due to a fire in the token booth area for about two years. It was reopened years ago; it was never re-named.
It's the stop just before Simpson Street and it has very little usage because it's so close to Simson Street. (Thanks to Jimmy Breslin and politicos, it was remodeled and re-opened while the MTA would have liked it closed permanently)
I've been to both Intervale and Simpson several times - both seem to get about the same amount of traffic - Prospect Avenue looks like it gets less. They did a nice job at Intervale but it looks out of character with the rest of the stations.
wayne
No, Wayne. Intervale gets little passenger traffic. Both Simpspon Street(bus hub) and Prospect Avenue have more passenger traffic. Intervale is real close to Simpson Street anyway.
I support my position. Last night I pulled into Simpspn St, about 20 passengers got on. Next Stop: Intervale, two passengers got OFF. The stop after that, Prospect Ave, about 20 more passengers got on. Intervale s too close to Simpson Street which also serves as a bus hub.
Intervale used to be called 163rd Street in the late 1950s early 1960s.Another rename is on the same line:
East Tremont (between 174 and 180) used to be called East 177th Street and in the 1970s became :177th Street West Farms Square:. The current name is " East Tremont Avenue"
The current version of The MAp once again calls it West Farms Square/East Tremont Ave.
Also on the R142s, the female just say West Farms Sq. No E.Tremont Ave. I always hear someone say "Where is West Famrs Sq?" or "Why they dont say E.Tremont Ave?"
Naming stations after squares is better than naming them after streets, since there's also Tremont on the B and D and the 4 and Westchester Square on the 6.
Theres no Tremont on the 4. The nearest station to E.Tremont Ave is the Burnside Ave(180St) station. At that part of the Bx, Bx40/42 runs on Burnside and the Bx36 runs on E.Tremont. Youre right about Westchester Sq as there are platform station signs unlike West Farms Sq.
It was Intervale but it was replaced.
Dean Street on the Franklin shuttle is gone altogether.
Myrtle Avenue on the BMT has just one platform.
Spotted r143 car number 8116 at kingsbridge ave. On the D line, I have the slightest idea what's going on with that set.
Maybe Train Dude's trying to see if that controller joystick can be relocated elsewhere in the cab? :)
Has the R143 ever been to Concourse?
That's the first! I think.
Ask the Train Dude!
Spotted car number 8116 passing through 71 Continental Ave on the Local track heading towards either Jamaica Yard or towards 75 Ave
Took a trip today to Miami and rode the MetroRail and the MetroMover.
The MetroRail is a one person operation with the train attendent basically operating as a conductor from the front of the train. Train operation is complelety automated and there are no signalson the line except at switches within the line.It takes 40 minuates from end to end South Dadeland to Okebee with an extenstion in Northen Dade County later this year. Trains operate from 5AM to Midnight daily.
Headways are 6 minuates rush hours, 15 minuates middays and evenings and 20 minuates weekends. It is completely elevated with automatic fare collection. It intersects the MetroMover twice.
The MetroMover has 3 lines Omni,Brickell and Downtown Loop. Service operates also from 5AM to Midnight but after 7PM the Omni and Brickell Loop are combined into one service. Several stations are closed after 7PM. The MetroMover is a one car automated operation and has a good view of Miami and Miami Beach
They are about 25 MetroMover cars and about 100 MetroRail cars.
It is no comparison to NYC Subways
Thank You
It's a nice little system. I rode it while attending Univ. of Miami. The extension is good news; the system also badly needs more lines within the city and surrounding towns.
The train has helped increase MDTA ridership, but buses, which too often run infrequently, still run around nearly empty a lot of the time.
There was some signal work being done on the two southbound trakcs, and a flagger was standing on the 86st platform, the workers were just in front of the beginning of 79st at a signal box. I was watching the signals carfully at 86st front end. The workers, while working seemed to have wired the signals differently for safety. When a 3 train on the s/b express track approached the 2 yellow lights on the ground, I watched all of the signals south of 86 on the s/b local track turn red and the trip arms went up. As the last car left the markers, or cleared the signal block on the express track, the signals on the s/b local turned green again, arms going down. As I boraded my 1 train, when we passed the first signal, all of the signals on the s/b express turned red, arms up. I assume as we passed the signal with the last car, everything would go back to normal. I never knew something like this could be done, it was quite a sight.
Safety Precaution??
Visually seems to prevent crews having to
face the subway-surfer darwinesque act of
"getting out of the path of one (express) train
while walking directly onto the path
of a second oncoming (local) train.."
Doesnt seem like common practice since it's
an everyday ocurrence to have 1 and 3 trains
enter a local station simultaneously.. maybe
it's a measure in effect while track work is on.
That would be logical. If trackwork is in progress, alternating train departures ensures that workers always have a relatively safe place to stand.
Did the trains sound horn warnings as they entered or exited the station, and/or did the workers sound a handheld, compressed-gas operated horn?
As the 3 trains were leaving 86, they sounded their horn, and as the 1 were leaving 86, they sounded their horn. The flagger on the platform had a radio that he would talk into if he saw headlights coming. The only time I ever saw a compressed-gas horn was on the LIRR. Outside in the MTA, they seem to use whistles.
TA uses whistles, a whistle is attached to (or supposed to be) every saftey vest.
The train should sound off as it passes the yellow lights.
I remember, in '99, when the MTA was rehabbing Lorimer Street (L), the flagman was using a compressed-gas air horn to alert the track workers.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I have a air horn. It was giving to me when I started with work Trains. I was using it last night while flaging the train I was on, when ever I saw someone on the tracks. It is loader then the whisles on the train.
Robert
I know...my dad (a former TA worker), too, has a bunch of them from over the years...the only thing I was told 'bout 'em really, was that don't hold them a specific way, or the can's temperature may drop rapidly, and the gasses become obstructed...but they ARE LOUD...I know, I was temporarily deafened when my younger deliberately blew one right next to my right ear.......so, I know...
Stuart, RLine86Man
Works better than that peanut whistle on the flat cars!
They're building a utility closet at the rear end of the northbound plat at Van Wyck Blvd, the workers often use the compressed air horn.
All s/b 3 trains went local from 72St to 14St. The tower let the 3 train ahead of your 1 train.
I don't understand. The track map doesn't show a crossover from express to local south of 96th.
Check north of 96, JUST north.
But the discussion was of an train on the downtown express track at 86th. It can't cross over any more.
Yes it can. Between 79 and 72St.
That's not on the track map posted on this site. See http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/bigcentral.gif.
Hmmm -- I thought I pointed out this error to Peter a year or two ago. Peter?
In any case, crossovers are as follows:
Southbound:
north of 96
north of 72
south of 42
north of 14 (local to express)
north of Chambers
Northbound:
north of Chambers
north of 14 (express to local)
south of 42
south of 72
north of 96
(If you don't believe me
"Hmmm -- I thought I pointed out this error to Peter a year or two ago. Peter?
In any case, crossovers are as follows:
Southbound:
north of 96
north of 72
south of 42
north of 14 (local to express)
north of Chambers
Northbound:
north of Chambers
north of 14 (express to local)
south of 42
south of 72
north of 96
(If you don't believe me"
Just checked the "big central", "big midtown", and "big downtown" track maps again. They agree with the above except for not having the crossovers on the southbound side north of 72nd.
They wouldn't display reds all the way to 86 on the express track. This GO has been on before, and it wasn't like that.
hi,
i downloaded some london routes... when i pass a station without stopping it starts beeping like crazy saying reset the safe or something
what do i do! help!! hahah
thanks,
allen
Here ya go:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/frames/control_opsys.htm
Socialized railroads, socialized post office, socialized medicine, etc, ect, etc. Is there ever any conclusion to a socialized sector of the economy other than failure....bailout...failure....bailout?
I am a Libertarian and socialism proves itself again and again. I do not need a railroad, but I do need medical help when I am sick and when I get old. I hope I never see the day, when I am compelled to go to a doctor who works for the federal government. Just look at the VA system or any socialized medicine country such as Canada.
Amtrak should sink or swim on its own. It should now be privatized and open to competition similar to long distance telephone. If not, well too bad; bye, bye railroad. I do pay taxes, and I do not want to pay for this dog anymore.
Why should we pay for highways? Or airports? Hell ... let Boeing and General Motors build their own. I'm all for chopping up Amtrak and scrapping it ... AFTER the roads and runways have been torn up first. That would be a level playing field ...
>>> Just look at the VA system <<<
Which in my opinion works very well. Don't knock it if you haven't used it. The medical delivery system in this country is an embarrassment to anyone who considers this an advanced society.
Tom
Socialized railroads, socialized post office, socialized medicine, etc, ect, etc. Is there ever any conclusion to a socialized sector of the economy other than failure....bailout...failure....bailout?
Yeah, thank God we have private companies like the airlines to get us around, and Enron to give us energy, and savings & loan companies to safeguard our money, all without ever relying on any government subsidies or bailouts.
-- David
Chicago, IL
nicely said, David
a libertarian eh. well don't you dare ride the socialist subways of this planet! The unique profit making subway is the Hong Kong system.
Don't like socialism eh, STOP using the socialist streets and highways, don't call the police, and don't even think about a Fire Department. Read some Donne "No man is an island..."
As to taxes, I'll trade you, you pay for the Enron employee retirement bailout, I'll pay for Atk.
>>> you pay for the Enron employee retirement bailout <<<
Those employees just have to understand that they are collateral damage in our great capitalist system. But when they take the money away from a person's mother in law, it is time someone should be put in jail. :-)
Tom
ok how bout then the airline industry SINKING .....
being dumped into the ocean like the " birds " eh ????
lol!!
What planet are you living on? The Government is bailing out the airlines in the Wake of massive losses due to 9/11.
"Billions for the airlines, but not one cent for Amtrak"
I would like to answer your question please..... EARTH !!!!!!
No i did not agree with the government bailing out the airlines in the wake of 911 at all! & the airlines did not pass
thier taxpayer paid CORPORATE WELFARE to thier workers & lower air fares...( hope this setteles this up )
Now i do not object to amtrak geting help to stay in operation even if i wish they would get thier ACT together
& big time !! So maybe we are not so much in dissagreement after all .............................sigh............
Anyway i aint going to fly on any plane for a long , long time !!! aint that da' truth !!!!
Just wondering what all the construction is about at Park St.? -Nick
They are brining the patform up for the Type-8. They will be doing this at other stations too. If you want to see a finished product go the Haymarket, Gree Line platrorm they have recently completed the platform.
Stevie,
I did notice the new platform at Haymarket..but I guess I didn't notice that it was raised. Is it just me, or are the platforms that are raised on the "D" line (i.e. Resevoir, Riverside) look higher than the new central subway platforms? Also, I wonder what they'll do for the Boylston Station...that kind of platform will look weird with the rest of the station, perhaps it should be all cement over there. -Nick
Nick
Yes the Riverside and Reservior stations do have a higher platform but eventually all central subways will have platforms compliant for ADA and Type-8 operations. Currently in progress is E Heath St Line getting all new platforms for ADA and Type-8 compliance as well. Any further questions email me. Ill be more than happy to answer. Stevie
Of course, this assumes the Type-8's actually ever see the light of day. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The MTA's official subway map has been updated on the web to show the restored E route to WTC.
Also 1010 WINS radio just announced it.
But some entrances have to be closed----I wonder which ones.
The entrance right behind the cemetary would be the most convenient to be re-opened.
Also does anyone know how the E train's WTC terminal fits into the Port Authority's plans for a people mover ?
>>Also does anyone know how the E train's WTC terminal fits into the Port Authority's plans for a people mover ? <<
The articles on this implied the E station would get a free transfer to the N/R Cortlandt St. stop
Funny, the new map fails to show a transfer to the A/C Chambers St. station.
I dont think there ever was one between the E and the A,C at Chambers and WTC.
Of course there was. E, A/C, 2/3 were all connected.
The map has never shown that connection. I'm not sure why, but the map is drawn so strangely that the WTC E station and Chambers A/C stations are two totally different stations, although in reality, the platforms are slightly staggered, but connect to each other. It's pretty silly.
The map has never shown that connection.
It was shown as a black line from WTC to Park Pl.
Ahh, my bad. It's still drawn strangely though...
Very strangely. In fact, access from the E to the 1/2 is via the A/C platform (to get around the fare control gates). From the map, it appears as though access from the E to the A/C is via the 1/2.
Do you mean it was never drawn correctly on the online maps? Because it is shown on the paper maps.
three cheers. Go MTA
Great! Thanks for the info.
Accordingly to MTA Web Site. E to/from WTC was restored at 5 AM this morning. The Station Name remained the same. Also the W no longer run Express in Astoria. If I'm right, The new updated map with the changes should be available sometime next month?
I, for one, will be glad to see it reopen. Now those trains can move out of Canal Street so that my C can keep with it's schedule.
When the E ended at Canal, it plugged my C for up to five minutes on the local track which meant a shorter break for me at Euclid.
Now I can keep it moving now that the E terminates at Chambers. :)
I thought that it was rather "quiet" on the C line today.
I went there today to check this out. Came back from Day #1 of jury duty at the Federal Court at Cadman Plaza East, that's another story.
The station is nicely cleaned up. If you saw those 9/11 photos with all that undentified dust every where, the station looks immaculate. The signs on the platform for the exit to WTC and PATH have them both covered up with black vinly.
The florescent tubes seemed to have been changed and look new. But the main difference is the PATH/WTC entrance which is now covered with wood painted white. Also the agents booth, which still must be there, is now walled off with wood also painted white. Perhaps waiting for the day when the transit complex is rebuilt down the road.
Since there is no booth, this is a Metrocard/HEET entrance. The bank of turnstiles at gated shut. Since this was after 5PM, gone was the multitudes of WTC workers nearly bowling you over to catch that (E) train to Penn Station, etc.
The signs on the R-32s were set for World Trade Center and not Chambers St. This station is now open for your inspection SubTalkers !
Bill "Newkirk"
CNN had a really nice report about the return of the "E" to WTC Station today. It was complete with interviews of TA personnel and passengers, and some great shots of the ubiquitous R32's on the "E". Signs were set to World Trade Center on all trains filmed.
So, the "E" is truly "world famous!
I've asked r68a_5200 this question but that screwed up mo computer(as of 2:17 am I am still trying to abort win zip) and that whole Japanese site was a complete waste of valuable time. Since I now control X's 2 avenue plan I've been trying to turn it into a bve(previously stated no prevail) long into short is there any other site where I can download a bve program(and that also has english text)?
Mackoy's site is the *ONLY* source of BVE ... he WILL sue since he gives the program away for free in exchange for seeing the Japanese banner ads on his site - that's how he gets paid for his efforts. Everyone's entitled to a paycheck for their work and unlike many others, he doesn't plant "spyware" in his software to get paid.
The site at http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/ has detailed instructions on how to download the four pieces you need, right down to which pictures to click on over on Mackoy's site. Shouldn't be all that hard ... certainly a LOT easier than building a BVE route or a train dat file, that's for sure. :)
these are all zip files right?
Most are autoextracting EXE's ... it's not hard at all if you have that page in front of you ... small amount of work considering ...
so how tgo get em started?
Have you gone to the pages I left? Everything you need to know is right there ... everything ... with pictures ... no offense, but it's not hard at all ... just a matter of reading it ...
I for one, went to the page and followed the info, and still can't run the thing. -but my laptop has the dreaded xPee...
Oh.................THAT explains it, doesn't it Selkirk? :-D The man's got WinBLOWS XPee. No doubt you use Internet EXPLODER? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
My laptop has always been a WinBox. BAHN and NXSYS run okay in Win98 emulation, but more complicated stuff doesn't. At home I run Mac OS9 and Netscape 4.76. (I hate Net6)
Netscape 6 always explodes here in the office....and Windows 98 is now the accepted "standard", even though it's older than MiniME (WinME), it's more stable than it's newer brothers and sisters.
It's like playing "LOOTO" ... everybody keeps thinking that NEXT WEEK'S score is gonna be the "hit" ... check out Win95C ... the winner of stability even if it's hosed too. Ain't nowhere NEAR as hosed as Lose98, MiniME or Xpee ... did USB sorta (better than 98), actually SHUTS DOWN without leaving you in "Windows is shutting down ... maybe" and doesn't require 1 gigahertz CPU to run slower than an Atari ...
Guess I'm getting old ... I remember when "progress" was synonymous with "improvement" ...
I'm using win XP right now and I never would have upgraded until I saw how stable it is on my friend's computer. XP pro is actually an OS you'd want to consider and I'm not a MS fan.
I'm using it on my firm's Network server. It's good for admin purposes, but as far as running programs ON the actual CPU, it's a little bit disappointing. I miss the Win 3.x days now more than ever.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Works under XPee as well ... may have tried to install it without "executive privilege" ... the last two builds of BVE were done specifically BECAUSE of the hosejob Redmond shipped.
What went wrong with the install?
What is BVE?
Boso View Express ... a train simulator that's a LOT better than the one at Jay street that runs on any Windows computer (though it's best to have a wailer and a 3D video card for the least jerky experience) ... some info on it here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Whoa hoa hoa hoa...Don't stretch it too far. The one at LIVINGSTON street is very nice! Sure it's a video, but it is as real as it gets (Sorry Microsoft!). Unless I can find a company to build me a computerized cab that plugs into my COM port, I'm stickin with the MTA Sim as the better one. But BVE is good for what it can do!!!
Ah ... you're not in on the conspiracy then ... what we're going to do is wire up HeyPaul's R9 cab to BVE along with a couple of pneumatic cylinders, plug it into an old Airway vacuum cleaner and let 'er rip. Yes, the video is better on the MTA trainsim, but I'm sorry, if you blow a homeball nothing happens unless the guy at the console knocks on the door at ya. :)
Door? What door? The cab is doorless! :-) If I blow a homeball, they call me up on the radio (Yes, I don't know how it works but its a real radio, sitting on the right of you in the cab) saying basically, you fool, why? :-)
Heh. You mean the guy doesn't stand up, walk away from the console and fill a sock full of quarters and biff the trainee Homey da clown style? Whatta rip! :)
Hey Selkirk. On another thread you stated that you didn't like the MTS and it wasn't realistic. I never tried BVE but have the MTS. How much better is BVE & why is it more realistic?
Long story that is best demonstrated by running it. First off, unlike MSTS, it doesn't eat your entire drive. Heh. Second, the curves on switches aren't a 25 foot radius like MSTS (those interlocks are pretty pathetic) and BVE provides MUCH better sound, the "physics" of a real train (rocking, tilting, smooth motion and proper acceleration and deceleration characteristics, more realistic interaction between the controls and the velocity and much better graphics quality depending on the authors of the routes.
There are somewhere in the vicinity of 400 BVE routes out there (compared to about 70 for MSTS) and for NYCTA in particular, I think there are now 16 subway routes for BVE, only promises of hacked up MSTS stuff somewhere down the road. MSTS though between its flat tracks and other lackluster scenery is a pretty plastic experience compared to BVE ... BVE does lack the "out of train experience" though - in BVE you sit in the cab and operate whereas with MSTS you screw around pretty much watching your train go by.
I'll let others here rant, in all sincerity you don't really get to appreciate BVE without installing it and giving it a try ... having done both myself, MSTS went back to the store, I *love* BVE when I have time to play with it ...
what's "executive privledge?"
To make a long story short, XPee is a support NIGHTMARE owing to its ability to set itself up completely differently each time you install it on the SAME hardware ... you might be "Administrator" you might be "Owner" it might even ask you for your NAME to start it up. Sometimes it will install as "Administrator" and tell you that you forgot your password that it never asked you for and sometimes it just keeps coming up, never getting past the startup blue screen of death. Ever.
Long and the thin of it is BVE works FAMOUSLY on XPee ... but sometimes a particular XPee install won't allow programs to work unless they're installed as "administrator" whether or not you can login as administrator. That's what I meant by the tongue in cheek "executive privilege" comment ...
The files should install and run if one follows the advice on the BVE helper site to the letter. If not, then maybe Redmond might be able to walk you through their grenade field ... quite possible that you're one of the one in three who have a hosed XPee ... if that piece of crap hadn't been released in order to play "beat the judge" I'd have more time on my hands myself to wade through these ... but Redmond was in a hurry, just like when they released the ill fated Win98 "first edition" in order to play "beat the judge" instead of waiting for the meat to reach safe eating temperature before smearing it on the wall.
Seriously, might try installing it as "administrator" if it won't go in on the basis of whatever your XPee thinks it is, animal, vegetable or mineral ...
No wonder the laptop was so cheap. The Cadillac probably came with proven Win95 !
Cool beans! We use Win95 on our "real" machines here that aren't running Linux ... same for our laptops. If USB is what you need, Win95C does the trick ... every new OS since out of Redmond has been piggier, buggier and slower ...
If you're running Win95 on that, it MIGHT just be that you don't have Microsoft "DirectX 7.0 or higher" on it ... but I do have some Thinkpads here with 133MHz CPUs on them and BVE is just TOO pokey to tolerate ... Microsoft's DirectX like all else is a resource hog and requires some horsepower to compensate for ...
It's amazing though that we have gigahertz CPU's these days and Billybloatware has made these supercomputers run as slow as the old 4.77 MHz XT's of the early days. A sad statement on waste ...
You couldn't have said it better pardner......
Stuart, RLine86Man
Damned shame ... we're STILL running our internet servers for our corporation on 66 MHz 486's running Linux and the load balancers YAWN from the lack of exercise. Meanwhile, our 850 MHZ Windows boxes drop packets because they ain't ready for more data. Gotta love it. :)
Would it work wonders on Alstom Propulsion 7.0 ?? CI Peter
I've got a 50 pound sledge that'll fix ANYTHING. :)
I finnaly aquired the right programs to start running the bve program. Thanks Selkirk
Cool! And how about that PRICE? :)
An offer no one could refuse :)
You'll get to love it ... the best fruits are those that make you work to pluck it off the branch. :)
You can use Alta Vista's Translation:http://babelfish.altavista.com/
I received reports via the booth scanner of an explosion between 116 and 125th Sts on the CPW Line last night at 9:30. What sounded like an explosion was followed by a smoke condition delaying northbound service through 125th St. A northbound train went out of service for mechanical difficulties. Anyone have details of the incident?
-Stef
a trivia question just for the info ..
when did anyone on this board frist spot a graitti design on any subway car anywhere ??..... not just nyc....the car type R # date time
etc.. i think the late 1969 - 1970 ...???......!
Earlier ... 1964 perhaps ... "TAKI 183" is the first I noticed anywhere ... but don't consider that an "official answer" ... it was magic marker, not "art" ...
did the ? " tagging " - spray paint cans on subway cars by grafiti artists & or vandals etc begin then ?..
lol...!
I'm not really up on the historical details, but in an interesting way, you amplify I point I've tried to make here and a few other places ever since I first posted ... I *despised* the "scratching" and "magic marker" crap ... first time I ever noticed what I refer to as "art" it was on the IRT broadway line at 230th St, rounding the curve southbound where this BEAUTIFULLY PAINTED FULL TRAIN MURAL of all sorts of pastoral green jungle with resting lions, zebras, blue sky, GORGEOUS colors eating up 6 of the 10 cars zizzed by on the el. It was BREATHTAKINGLY BEAUTIFUL ...
That was in 1967 or 1968 as best as I can remember. The TA also left that train alone for quite a while - saw it many more times on the #1 and on the #2 trains ... eventually a few cars got rearranged, then it vanished ... there was another one where two cars got done up with a gorgeous two car scene of Tina Turner singing on a stage and her reclining on one of those Greek classic couch thingies ... sure it was vandalism, but artistically speaking these trains were breathtaking. I saw a few other really nicely done "taggings" in a similar artistic quality that begged to be exhibited at MOMA or the Guggenheim.
Then there's assholes with felt markers ... or worse ...
yes thats true the r-17s & r 21-22 fleet was destroyed by them....
later i noticed by 1972 it was true of he flushing line as well..
so it began in he late 1968 or so like i guessed ...
i saw a video of german subway cars looking like they once did ...
thankz
You welcome, boss ... and as to the older IRT cars, given the LAHT rot they suffered, it's entirely possible that some of the taggers actually HELPED the equipment with those extra layers of paint between the steel and deferred maintenance. Don't recall seeing much of the "graf" peeling off the cars like the TA paint did. Heh.
wow tag the redbirds...save em .........
even have a tagged museum train .....lol!!
Uh ... yeah ... right. Shrooms, anyone? (grin)
Just to finish the thought I had before I sidetracked myself and got lost in the previous message ... like it or not, subway graffiti at least DOES deserve a footnote in transit history ... it would be nice if we could pin down WHEN it was first discovered, perhaps some mention of the first "notable" artists, and THEN the prosthelitizing (and I'm sure I screwed up the spelling - sorry, I fly without a spellchecker) can begin in earnest.
But "graffiti" IS as valid a part of subway history as the D types were, and no coverage of the 100 years could go by legitimately without some mention of it and illustrations. As to whether the artists who broke the law to "provide" it are worthy of mention, that's a value judgement. TRUE Historians I would expect, would consider that to be a valid inclusion as well ... like it or not, it IS part of history though.
I reccomend this book for anyone interested in learning a bit how graffiti started in new york. It also has some fantastic photos of marked subway cars - you'll see a lot of the better work that was done.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805006788/qid=1012235264/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/002-6552667-8216847
I don't believe in giving Amazon money, but will see about ordering it through a local mom and pop bookstore ... THANKS for the tip!
True large scale subway graffiti was a creation of the Lindsay administration.
Then there's the R-26 done up in a "Merry Christmas" scheme. I even have a Christmas card with a picture of it, compliments of my sister.
Cool! Scan it some time ... would love to see it ...
>>That was in 1967 or 1968 as best as I can remember,,
I may have to correct you on this. I have many slides on the late 60's era and have never seen one shot with entire mural or even "tagging" on subway equipment. This also includes other peoples slides and photos too.
I noticed that around 1971, "tagging" of the cars started and entire car murals appeared by the mid 70s. The 70's were really the tagging and mural years of rolling stock. The tagging was childish scribbling, but the murals of course were artistic. But to deface public property in the name of "art", is not art in my book.
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree with ya there, merely observing the realities ... had it been stopped cold before it had a chance to "catch on" then maybe it wouldn't be a historical footnote. As to the 1967/68 timing, it might have been even earlier when I spotted the "jungle train" but I'd stand on somewhere between 66 and 68. Went to work for the TA in 1970 and it was a couple of years before that time so I feel pretty safe as to the approximate time. Good thing it's the mind that goes first as we age though and not a vital organ. :)
The invisible radiation of the 4CX1500B wafts its destruction over many years. 3-500Zs X 2 are so homey. CI Peter
Feh ... 500's are wimpy, even in push-pull. :)
Subway graffiti didn't really come into full bloom until the general availablity of aerosol spray paint, which was another of those modern convienences that came into full bloom in the 1960s. Before then, graffiti artists had only the far more limiting magic markers to work with -- thanks to Elsie the Cow and her Krylon Paint division, by the end of the 60s taggers had a rainbow of colors that could be quickly spread over a wide area of metal and glass, much to the annoyance of anyone trying to read a route sign on a car while running downstairs to catch a train before the doors closed.
I can't tell you the exact year, but I recall other details.
There was some small amount of grafitti inside cars and especially in stations peactically forever. It was certainly there in my memory in the 50s. This was mostly pencil and pen on the easiest medium, paper advertising signs. Also a small amount on car interiors and structures in magic marker or paint. Staten Island Rapid Transit had a serious graffiti problem on stations and structures in the early 60s.
As to the "tagging" that you have in mind, it is reputed to have started with TAKI but if that dude is really the first (or one of the first) in anything, it would be not in the writing, but in the "game" of attempting to tag as many cars as possible, rather than as random vandalism.
The first significant graffiti was on the West Side IRT. It spread slowly to the rest of the IRT, the 7 being the last holdout. It developed more slowly on the BMT and IND.
The New York Times did a great deal to boost grafitti by running "tsk, tsk" articles which explained in great detail the phenomenon, publicizing the handles of the most profilic writers of the time, and hawking one of the prime motivations of that first wave of writing, which was not so much to create designs, as to tag cars, and then stand on the platforms at strategic spots and compare counts of your tags as trains went by. Obviously, the person with the most tags, not the one with the nicest, "won."
Quite right, Paul.
Most graffiti started 'innocently' by people marking up advertising signage (like drawing mustaches on women or 'devil horns' on guys).
There was even a picture on ebay for sale recently dubbed one of the 'original' graffiti artists -- a teenager named Horowitz -- drawing on a subway advertisement poster. The photo was taken in 1959.
BMTman
There is a marvelous picture in the first edition of UNDER THE SIDEWALKS..[I believe its that book at least!]showing one of the original Interborough kiosks that was taken in 1904 or so..with a nice lil piece of you-know-what on it! Also remember that the ease of aerosol-propelled paint,and also the Magic Marker made graffito MUCH easier than back in the days of chalk/crayon/whatever..imagine giving some of the hoodlums that were around in the first part of the 20th century access to a case of spray paint-the BMT would never have been the same!
Funny i see a few mentions of this guy on this thread. Late friday night I happened to snap the photo below of a homeless guy at broadway layfette station on the F/S - his coat was tagged up all over by "ear snot", though if you look closely just below the 'ear' throwy, down and to the right, you can make out a 'taki 183' tag (it's clearer on other scans i have of this shot, but i'm not about to post a link to some huge image...).
I don't know if this was the original taki 183 that tagged on this guy, or just 'ear snot' goofing around.
broadway station?...what line ?
I think he said Broadway-Lafayette? It's Houston Street Line, one station south of W4, currently F and V trains.
Yeah, it was a forgery ... the *real* TAKI 183 used all caps. :)
Been a busy little camper tonight and while watching a bunch of files go out to customers by email, spent a little time rummaging around the JoeKorner and found this amazing description of what could have been. I've seen others post about the IND second system here, and have watched others get really foamy (heh) over the 2nd Avenue subway. While sitting and rotting though, looked into some of the drawings and plans of what could have been were it not for the 1929 Enron style economy at the time ... Joekorner listed it as follows:
Other unbuilt Parts of the IND
The 1929 schemeatic of the IND had a number of other interesting lines:
Six track 2nd Ave line north of 61st St
Concourse Line Extended via 205th St to Baychester Ave and Boston Road
2nd Ave line taking over the White Plasins and Pelham lines of the IRT
NO 63rd St Tunnel, but a 61st St line from 6th to 2nd Ave northbound
Extension of Liberty Ave Subway to Springfield Blvd
Connection from 78th St on the Jamaica line via Fresh Pond Rd, Central Ave and the LIRR to Rockaways
An extension to the IRT Flatbush line to Utica and Voorhees (along with the IND line from Utica)
The rest is here on the JoeKorner:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/indsecondsystem/
Just figured I'd also mention where I leaped off onto this trip from since Joe Brennan's redone his own pages ... all started here on subtalk and decided to hit google with some keywords ...
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/
The extent of what could have been truly boggles the mind. Of course, a lot of our beloved els would no longer be with us...
And as it turns out, many died in vain anyway ... a city promise made is ... what promise? :)
An extension to the IRT Flatbush line to Utica and Voorhees (along with the IND line from Utica)
Utica Avenue ends on Avenue S and Flatbush Avenue and never intersects with Voorhies Avenue, which before the Belt Parkway ran from Shell Road to Knapp Street.
I think he meant the Nostrand Ave line, which was to extend from Flatbush Ave down to Voorhies Ave in Sheepshead Bay (Hence Flatbush Ave set up). The 2 line is long enough now, imagine it going from 241St to Sheepshead Bay. Whew!!!!!!!
If there was a Nostrand line to Sheepshead Bay, maybe the 3 would have stayed on Nostrand Ave and the 2 would have contiue going to New Lots.
I've always figured that if there was limitless subway money the Nostrand Ave line should go to the western Rockaways via Flatbush Ave and the Livonia line should go accross southern Queens via Linden Blvd and Conduit Ave.
:-) Andrew
That's correct.
That explains why the terminal is NOT an island platform, which is usually the case with a true 'last stop'. Flatbush wasn't intended to be the last stop.
The NIMBY's that lived in Marine Park at the time called themselves the 'Nostrand Avenue Taxpayers Association' put pressure on City Hall not to extend the line.
Their cry was that TA lied to them, because they were promised a true subway line, but found out later that it would have been an unsightly El line terminating near (or in) Marine Park.
The Marine Park neighoborhood is predominantly made up of one and two family detached and semi-detached homes.
BMTman
Yep........in fact, there's a whole street named for "me" :-D
(Stuart Street, 1 or 2 blocks east of Gerritsen Avenue)
Stuart, RLine86Man
(and former Sheepshead Bay/Marine Park [I know the area] resident for 21 years)
Stuart Streets runs from Nostrand Avenue just north of Quentin Road to Avenue X ONE block east of Gerritsen's Lane.
Thanks for the clear-up...it's been a long time since I was actually there...
Stuart, RLine86Man
Maybe. Then again, the main reason the 2 and 3 swapped Brooklyn
terminals was to give the 3 direct access to Livonia yard (I guess
Lenox yard is inadequate). But maybe a yard might have been built
in the Sheepshead Bay area if the Nostrand Av line had been extended (not likely though).
Fred
Where in Sheepshead Bay? FYI, the Sheepshead Bay area is very densely "populated"/"developed"....there are no viable places for such a yard, even a small 2 or 3 track yard (similiar to Tottenville) in that entire area...
Stuart, RLine86Man
(and former Sheepshead Bay resident of 21 years)
FYI, the Sheepshead Bay area is very densely "populated"/"developed"
Well, back in the days when the IND second system was being proposed, Sheepshead Bay was not as densely populated. I still recall from the early 1950s when Nostrand Ave. was unpaved south of Ave. X, and there really weren't any buildings of note along that corridor betweeen Ave. X and the Belt Parkway. Most of what is there now was built in the late 1950s.
My understanding is that original plans were for the IRT subway to be extended south along Nostrand Ave. at least to Ave. X. Beyond that, you're basically dealing with a filled in salt marsh, so if you wanted to go beyond that, it almost had to be an El.
-- Ed Sachs
Almost had to be, yeah. And the possibility, at least in the '50's, might have existed...but nowadays it's an IMpossibility.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I still recall from the early 1950s when Nostrand Ave. was unpaved south of Ave. X.
So that's why the road suddenly gains a median there. Was there always an underpass for Nostrand beneath the Belt?
Just imagine. 50 years ago, we still had dirt roads!
We had fire and the wheel!
Magnets and mirrors were a the real challenge!
avid
We still have dirt roads on the outer fringes of metro Denver. If you head out east through Aurora past some of the newer housing developments, you'll eventually encounter an unpaved dirt road. I remember when Hampden Ave., a main east-west artery, became a rural dirt road beyond Himalaya Rd. It's built up now. Once you get past Gun Club Rd., you're out in the prairie.
Paul Matus recalls when E. 105th Street (by the old Canarsie Line grade crossing) was a dirt road.
BMTman
I saw it too ... and that sucker MOVED when WE rode it ... I remember the old semi-functional ding-ding-ding "stop-look-listen" there as well ... I always liked the Frankie for obvious reasons, but without the GRADE CROSSING at Turnbull/105, the Canarsie line SUCKS as rebuilt. It's just another boring subway line. :)
The 143's on the other hand were orgasmic ... NICE toys ...
You can point out any corrections to Joekoerner, I merely ripped the words as a tease verbatim ... looks like many of those lines would have truly hit the spot though ...
The 2nd system had a plan to extend the Nostrand Ave IRT from Flatbush to Voorhies via an elevated structure.
We all know that already. There was an extensive discussion about this for the last few days.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Indeed, it was an awesome plan. IMHO it is a genuine tragedy for the city that essentially none was built. The comprehensive and large capacity of the proposed system would have made the subways much more convenient and useful on many levels. If a useful connection to Staten Island had opened that early the demographics might have been very different.
what should have been built was the 8TH AVE SUBWAY on the west side and the SECOND AVE SUBWAY on the east side with both having branches to the Concourse line, QUEENS BLVD, FULTON,UTICA etc... 6 TH AVE line should have remained on the back burner untill the 2 ave was finished,the lines are so intermingled....
Fox5 had it live as I type ... open ...
This morning's answer was a bit better than the "speed restriction" one I got on Friday. The T/O said he "thought there was trackwork". The train was in manual and the operator was talking to this passenger in the railfan seat at stations, making the dwell times quite long.
Story here.
You never took a dump at the Deleware Water Gaps $900K toilets. CI Peter
Those baby's are sweet! They have slate roofs. Its a shame that kind of quality isn't standard anymore. I miss the 30's.
It was announced in this morning's Philadelphia Inquirer, page D2 of the business section (don't know if the story made philly.com) that James Weinstein has been appointed Amtrak's senior vice president for the Northeast Corridor. That gives him operational responsibility for all tracks from Boston to Newport News.
Let's give him a nice warm Subtalk welcome. Write to him and tell him how important the NEC is. And let him know we will be demanding a lot from him.
Then, let's back that up with letters and phone calls to Congress and state legislators.
Address:
James Weinstein
Sr. Vice President-NEC
National Railroad Passenger Corp.
30th Street Station
Philadelphia PA 19104
What happened Stan Bagley, his predecessor?
Promoted to executive vice president, in charge of all day-to-day operations of Amtrak. Weinstein reports to him.
Just got back from my E train ride downtown, and I'm here to tell you, that station was CLEAN! The Tiles were shining on the floor, and it seemed as busy as usual with people flying in and out of the station, but there were people who looked at the borded up part and just were like freaked out at the part that a few hundred feet further up is Ground Zero. The station is clean, the cleanest station, fresh paint, fresh everything. Great job to the MTA for having the station this clean. There is something odd through.
On the way to WTC the conductor said "The Last Stop on the E train is World Trade Center Terminal. I repeat World Trade Center terminal, this train no longer terminates at Canal Street."
the conductor on the way home said "This is Chambers Street, next stop is Canal Street"
Do Some conductors dont want to say World Trade Center?
The official name of the E terminal station is, I believe, Chambers St-World Trade Center, to distinguish it from the A and C Chambers Street station platforms.
But your theory about the conductor's announcement is reasonable. I can't see how it wouldn't be an emotional thing. I bet it hurts every time somebody says it. I feel the hurt.
I felt it a little bit when I saw "World Trade Center" on those R32's today.
But your theory about the conductor's announcement is reasonable. I can't see how it wouldn't be an emotional thing. I bet it hurts every time somebody says it. I feel the hurt.
For sure. language has a life of its own. Before 1941 I'm sure "Pearl Harbor" evoked a pretty image. It's still a harbor and still called Pearl Harbor, but it will never shakes its secondary meaning.
So even if a magnificent new World Trade Center is built on the exact same spot, it won't lose it's stigma.
In fact,before 12/7/41, the term 'Pearl Harbor'was prety unknown to the general public;unless they had a son in the Navy stationed there...Many recollections of Pearl Harbor Day, have the people having little clue where or WHAT Pearl Harbor was...[Pearl WHO??];whereas before 9/11, most folks had a pretty good idea where or what the WTC was....
There are some C/Rs out there who are defiant nonetheless. I was on a #4 some weeks ago on which the conductor announced "Transfer is available to the 1, 2, etc." and then "World Trade Center." Go figure.
According to the map and, IINM, the station signs, the E terminates at World Trade Center and the A/C stops at Chambers Street. (The latter, perhaps, has a "World Trade Center" caption, but the station name proper is simply Chambers Street.)
How do you exit from that station now? Do you have to go up the stairs all the way at the north end of the platform and come out at Park Place and Church (or other exits further north)?
Or can you exit slightly further south (such as at the entrance in front of 90 Church St, which is just outside the Ground Zero fence)?
I haven't been there today, but before 9/11 you were able to exit at the turnstiles behind the bumper block and immediately make a left turn and go up the stairs to Fulton St.
I haven't been there today, but before 9/11 you were able to exit at the turnstiles behind the bumper block and immediately make a left turn and go up the stairs to Fulton St.
I was there less than an hour ago - and to my great surprise found that exit open. It puts you onto the SE corner of Vesey and Church streets, directly across the street from where WTC 5 stood. It must be the closest unrestricted access to Ground Zero. The sight of Ground Zero was disconcerting at first, but after a few seconds it bagan to look more like an ordinary construction site and therefore less shocking. But you can easily see, a couple hundred feet to the west, the remains to the stairway at the Vesey Street entrance to Cortlandt Street IRT.
I know it's amazing how fast the clean up efforts have come, maybe the MTA is helping out with paying or something, but WTC Station looks brand spanking new. Excellent job by the MTA for getting the subways now at around 95% capacity.
You might want to write them and tell them that. Write to either of the following:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
Lawrence Reuter, President
NYCTA
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn NY 11201
They would appreciate hearing that from you.
And I agree with your sentiments.
I know it's amazing how fast the clean up efforts have come, maybe the MTA is helping out with paying or something, but WTC Station looks brand spanking new. Excellent job by the MTA for getting the subways now at around 95% capacity.
The reason is because it is all getting billed to the US Government under WTC recovery. It dosen't matter if the mildlew was there before, it's all covered.
>>>The reason is because it is all getting billed to the US Government under WTC recovery. It dosen't matter if the mildlew was there before, it's all covered. <<<
You ARE one sick SOB.
Peace,
ANDEE
One tends to agree, laddie-buck...........especially if that's all he can discuss about a certain topic.
Stuart, RLine86Man
How is this observation sick?
Actually, it's mostly insurance money, with a little FEMA contribution thrown in.
Its still the same phenominon. You get into an accident and suddenly every problem you car had previously was caused by "the accident". I am not faulting the MTA for anything, just pointing out that the MTA usually does not choose to offer crapy service or shitty stations, it just dosen't have enough* money.
*Accepting all inefficiencies as normal.
Well, the WTC site cleanup's original estimate was $7 billion and the reports last week said it's going to come in at about $1 billion, so there's certainly enough leftover money on that ledger to fix up the Chambers Street E station.
At $1 million a day it might be even less than that.
Good news for Second Av subway: Estimates of $10 billion may be very high too. $6 billion might do the job.
$6 billion might do the job
Would that be for the "Stubway" from 63rd to 125th or the full length line?
Full length. That assumes they can keep the cost at $400 million per mile - and it looks like they can. They don't have to work around existing train service, except when they're installing the switches and merging ramps to the 63rd Street line. They also will take advantage of some of the existing tunnels under Second Av, reducing the cost further.
re cost estimates for Second Avenue line
Full length. That assumes they can keep the cost at $400 million per mile - and it looks like they can. They don't have to work around existing train service, except when they're installing the switches and merging ramps to the 63rd Street line. They also will take advantage of some of the existing tunnels under Second Av, reducing the cost further.
Another thing that might help keep costs down is the fact that there are fewer major utility lines under Second Avenue than most other main routes. This was deliberate, in anticipation of eventual subway construction.
Very good. I hadn't thought about that, but yes - utility relocation is the first thing you have to do - and it's done already!
that there are fewer major utility lines under Second Avenue than most other main routes. This was deliberate, in anticipation of eventual subway construction.
Really? REALLY ??? Wow. I'm boggled. This is incredibly smart, and I'd love to know more about the background of this.
Has this been Con Ed policy? Since when? The '20s, when the IND Second System was first planned? The '60s, when it was thought the line might actually get built?
This makes me feel good. Another in a short but accumulating list of things that seem to be indicating that Second Ave could well be more than just a SubTalk fantasy ...
Second Avenue was designated what I believe is called a Special Use District (I also think it's the ONLY one) by the city in the mid-1970s, right before construction of the subway was suspended.
David
Is $400 million per mile a current back-of-the envelope estimate including stations?
If so, that would be great. It's less than 9 miles from 125th and Lex to South Ferry. Somehow, the idea of New Yok coming up with $4 million from all all its sources sounds so much more credible than $12 billion.
Shouldn't it announce Chambers St instead, due to the WTC?
Hi everyone, I downloaded and installed everything with the new BVE route for the E line. The problem is that the slab, slab 2, slab 3 and concrete bmp files are missing, can anyone tell me what folder I need to put them in to make them operate correctly?
The site has been updated with the lastest patch to correct the problem.
Here is the address: http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/bve/dl/index.html
I own this book and reccomend it to anyone who is interested in graffiti on the subways. It gives some historical info, how it got started, the different styles, etc. It is mostly though a picture "coffee table" type book - tons of great photos of the murals and tags done on subway cars.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805006788/qid=1012235264/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/002-6552667-8216847
I do remember seing a book like that in a bookstore sometime ago.
I bought it 13 years ago in the B. Dalton's at LA's Farmer's Market....used to stop there for lunch on the sightseeing tour buses I used to drive, cut through the bookstore, and it caught my eye right away. I guess they have done a reprinting if it is now available again.
I was wondering do any of you know subwaygrl's website for the straphanger shirts? i do wanna buy a J shirt when it does come out, and i do enjoy updates. thank you very much
It's www.nycsubwayline.com.
The new issue of the now semi-annual ERA Headlights just arrived. Beautifully put-together, it includes a long article on HBLR with many photos and a nice nap. The issue is dated July-December 2000 and the inside notations indicates its actual close date as 01/08/02.
None of this is unusual. one to one-and-half-years late has been close to the least Headlights has missed its official date in the last few decades. Such are the vagaries of putting together a nice publication with a volunteer staff.
What is weird is that there are several impressive photos with WTC prominent in the background, as well as a number of references to it in text and caption, such as haiing the Exchange Place station as: "it is only one stop from the World Trade Center."
Not intended as criticism. The material in this issue is just great, but it's been four months and I would have thought there have been some reference, even a notation. Just strikes me weird.
Some years ago, ERA announced its editorial policy regarding news items in Headlights. Items are reported from the standpoint of the issue date, presumably so confusion doesn't ensue in the future when Headlights is an historical document. So the "news" in the current issue represents a December 2000 perspective. Perhaps the solution is for Headlights to evolve as a sometimes publication that restricts itself to historical subjects.
I've discovered www.trolleycar.org as a reliable, well-written source of current news in the rail transit arena. It's published by the Free Congress Foundation (Paul Weyrich), and I'll refrain from commenting on the foundation's politics.
Yes, I'm familiar with Mr. Weyrich's foundation. Agree with his politics or not, I'm glad that transit is no longer exclusively advocated at one end of the political spectrum.
It's along way from those days when I lived in Georgia, 'ol Lester was the Governor, and advocacy of a subway in Atlanta was openly equated with Communism.
(For the youth of this forum, I'm not joking)
"From each according to his abilities to each according to his MARTA"
Karl Marx (?)
It is indeed entertaining to read his site--unfortunately he is serious. Check out the Why Conservaives should support transit to foster conservative agenda--daddy can take the train leaving the family car with wifey so she can stay where she belongs at home. welcome to the 1950's when planners of WMATA referred to kiss and ride areas at stations.
Check out the Why Conservaives should support transit to foster conservative agenda--daddy can take the train leaving the family car with wifey so she can stay where she belongs at home
Well, that's one way to look at it. Another is that it used to be more possible for one spouse to make sufficient income to support the family so that the other spouse could raise the family and do socially useful work.
Until I was a teen my mother didn't have to work, which enabled her to take care of the home and the kids and volunteer to do charity work, as well. She was a block captain for the March of Dimes, and was involved in religious and social work.
Nowadays both spouses may have fulfilling careers OR they may both be stuck in dead-end jobs while the children are raised by wolves.
welcome to the 1950's when planners of WMATA referred to kiss and ride areas at stations.
Metro North refers to the reconfigured dropoff lanes they've just built at Poughkeepsie Station as a "kiss & ride" dropoff area. But not only can wives drop off their husbands, but vice versa. Or same-sex partners for that matter.
Kissing & riding, thankfully, is a generic concept that can be extended to a whole variety of family situations!
Ah ... Po'town ... "Progressive QUEEN city" (and the quote is accurate) ... heh. That quote actually was painted above the old bus stop just south of the Main Mole. :)
It is indeed entertaining to read his site--unfortunately he is serious. Check out the Why Conservaives should support transit to foster conservative agenda--daddy can take the train leaving the family car with wifey so she can stay where she belongs at home.
Look at it this way - supporting transit for the wrong reasons is not good, but it's better than not supporting transit at all.
"welcome to the 1950's when planners of WMATA referred to kiss and ride areas at stations."
CTA used -- and still uses -- "kiss and ride" as the official (on signs, etc.) designation for the passenger dropoff and pickup area at rapid transit stations. The first stations with a kiss and ride area were on the O'Hare extension and weren't built until the 1980s. So it's not a '50s thing.
Kiss and ride doesn't make ANY reference to who's doing the riding (or kissing). It could be husband dropping off wife or parent dropping off child* as well as wife dropping off husband.
*or teenage child picking up parent, although teenagers tend not to kiss their parents in public. :^)
Besides, the importance of the symbolism is as opposed to "Park and Ride" meaning that a special effort is made to make it easy for people to drop off someone without hindering traffic or having to leave your car at the train station.
If someone can drive someone else to the station and still keep the car isn't this a social good (eliminating the need for an extra "station car") even if its sounds Politically Incorrect?
Would anyone feel better if we tried to make it socially accurate and call it:
HISS AND RIDE?
"Would anyone feel better if we tried to make it socially accurate and call it: HISS AND RIDE?"
Considering I recieved many more "hisses" than kisses as I was dropped off and picked up at the train station when I was younger, I can definitely understand that change. :^)
Shame that the WTC and HBLR in the Jersey City area appearing in photos was short lived. It was the most obvious landmark to compliment a reborn, method of transit.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hi, everyone. I'm new posting here, though I've been reading the SubTalk boards for about a year. I am trying to draw on a map the outline of the proposed IND Second System, and I am kind of clueless in some parts and was wondering if anyone could help me out.
Two main parts of the system in Queens are driving me bananas:
*120th Ave Line.: Arising from the Rockaway line, this would have run for 5.23 miles east along 120th Avenue and then Springfield Blvd. to Foch Blvd.
120th Avenue doesn't go anywhere near the Rockaway line. 120th Ave. and Foch Blvd run parallel to each other. Foch Blvd. does not intersect Springfield. Any clue as to what streets this really was intended to run on?
*Van Wyck line: Utilizing the track connection later taken by today's Archer Avenue Line, this would have arisen from the Queens Blvd IND, and continued as subway along Van Wyck Blvd 166th Avenue.
While I do know that Van Wyck Blvd. later became the Expressway, 166th Ave. does not exist in Queens, according to a Hagstrom New York City Atlas 1998 Edition.
Thanks for your help!
Frank
Have you checked out THIS yet?
Peace,
ANDEE
Also check out Joe Korman's site HERE
It's obvious he did. You should have taken the time to read his message.
120th Avenue doesn't go anywhere near the Rockaway line. 120th Ave. and Foch Blvd run parallel to each other. Foch Blvd. does not intersect Springfield. Any clue as to what streets this really was intended to run on?
While this may be a stretch, notice in the description of the Rockaway Line (check Brooklyn), it says that the 120th Avenue line would branch from the Rockaway line at N Conduit. If 120 was extended west from Rockaway Blvd, it would meet the Rockaway Line near the Conduits.
Foch Blvd is 118th Avenue. If it was not for St. Albans VA Medical Center, it would connect to the 118th that meets Springfield.
While I do know that Van Wyck Blvd. later became the Expressway, 166th Ave. does not exist in Queens, according to a Hagstrom New York City Atlas 1998 Edition.
Van Wyck would have intersected with a 166th Avenue (the highest is 165th) if JFK Airport had not been built and the land was laid out in a grid.
Thanks alot...
That realy helped.
...according to a Hagstrom New York City Atlas 1998 Edition.
You really have to look at Queens as it existed in the late 1920's, when the second system plans were formulated. Much of the area described was built up between 1945 and 1960. The current street system does not completely follow the pattern projected in the 1920's.
This will give you some idea of what Queens looked like in the early 1920's.
Most of Queens and SI were *rural* before WWII.
I'm old enough to remember parts of this country which were rural 40 years ago, and are now continuous subdivisions. The sprawl is astonishing to behold.
The tree-huggers are now coming round to the notion that places like NYC are eco-friendly: it is better to keep us pigs confined in high density places and move us around by subway, than to let us off on the next off-ramp to root through unspoiled wilderness.
The tree-huggers are now coming round to the notion that places like NYC are eco-friendly: it is better to keep us pigs confined in high density places and move us around by subway, than to let us off on the next off-ramp to root through unspoiled wilderness.
This is obvious to me and probably to the rest of us here. It's not at all obvious to the average dyed-in-the-wool suburbanite, and I've had little success convincing such people. Unfortunately, they're still by far in the majority in the U.S.
I finally had the opportunity to ride the F through the 63rd Street Connector and the 63rd Street line this morning. The curving walls and tilework of the Roosevelt Island stop reminded me a lot of some Underground stations in London.
Yes. It does look rather like those. I think it's a rather attractive look, and very distinctive for the NYC Subway.
:-) Andrew
It's more like Paris or Madrid :-)
Yes, Paris has more space on the platforms, and ceiling height, than the "Tube." Haven't been to Madrid yet...
I really do like the style of Queensbridge, Roosevelt Isle, and 63/Lex. They are all different enough to keep it interesting, and the lack of columns really makes a difference. Safer and more open. Any ideas if the 2nd Ave is planned to use the same type of stations?
JR
Madrid's Metro is very nice. Relatively cheap to ride, too, and goes pretty much everywhere you want.
The only quibble I have with it is that the airport line is too slow, and was added almost as an afterthought, without providing convenient connections to other important lines.
I guess you meant the "subsurface" lines of the London Underground (which resemble the Paris Metro). The deep tube lines on LU have very unspacious stations to match their small diameter tunnels and consequent small cross-section trains. My memory of Madrid is that theirs aren't very spacious either, but it's a few years ago that I was there and my memory may be faulty.
But if you want a really opulent station in London, go to its great unnecessary station -- North Greenwich, built to accommodate the crowds that never came to the now-closed Millennium Dome!
In conjunction with the prior post about the old days of the NYC subway, I am nostalgic about those huge old black on white name tablets that used to hang from the ceilings of the IND stations and the black on white signs on the pillars. They are almost all gone now.
At Union Turnpike, my home station growing up, the station was abbreviated "UNION T'P'KE" on the columns.
On the same line, 71st-Continental Avenue's columns read "CONTINENTAL AVENUE - FOREST HILLS", harking back to the time before Continental Avenue was renamed 71st Avenue except for the portion within Forest Hills Gardens.
Any others?
Hudson Terminal, now World Trade Center
BTW, Court Street IND is the only place you will find the original station signage on heavy metal.
Times Square on the BMT Broadway line still features original porcelain "Times Sq." plates on the pillars.
Over on the IRT Times Square station, there used to be a "DOWN TOWN EXPRESS TRAINS" sign with a long arrow pointing to the express track. Luckily, I took a picture of it before it was taken down.
I wonder if that was when both platforms had the long ramps?
I don't remember any long ramps on the IRT Times Square station. BMT, yes. I used to take that ramp after getting off an N train following a nice sprint along the n/b express track.
I meant the BMT
Hudson Terminal, now World Trade Center
BTW, Court Street IND is the only place you will find the original station signage on heavy metal.
That, and I believe Atlantic Avenue on the Brighton BMT [(Q)/], near one of the ends of the platform, are signs that are still black on white (circa, unknown)
Stuart, RLine86Man
>>>That, and I believe Atlantic Avenue on the Brighton BMT [(Q)/], near one of the ends of the platform, are
signs that are still black on white (circa, unknown) <<<
BMT Times Square still has all vintage black on whites! Hiding in plain sight.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>BMT Times Square still has all vintage black on whites! Hiding in plain sight<<
They may not last long with the rehab of the Times Square (BMT) station. New pillar signs are sure to be part of the rehab.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anyone remember the old signs on the Canarsie line at 8th Ave.that showed which train was leaving next? If you looked real hard you could see the painted over portions that said "To Canarsie" and "To Lefferts Blvd." These signs lasted at least until the 1970's, maybe early 1980's
I remember those "Next Train Out" signs! Can't recall seeing anything painted over, though. DeKalb Ave. still has an indicator board for the next arriving train (4th Ave., Sea Beach, West End, etc.)
Yeah, but that's pretty recent.....the boards with the current route letters and descriptions anyway are. The concept may have dated back to when the Manny B's approach tracks(Manhattan side) were realigned to their current config.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Good thing I snapped a photo of a "Times Sq." plate last fall.
>>>That, and I believe Atlantic Avenue on the Brighton BMT [(Q)/], near one of the ends of the platform, are
signs that are still black on white (circa, unknown) <<<
BMT Times Square still has all vintage black on whites! Hiding in plain sight.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Last week, I noticed a 70's-style black-on-white station sign at the far north end of the northbound platform at 59 (Brooklyn).
Yep...there IS one there........that is, 'til the TA notices it and takes it down :(
Stuart, RLine86Man
Many Queens Blvd. Line stations have those old signs on the columns between the tracks.
PARSONS
SUTPHIN
VAN WYCK
UNION T'P'KE
75TH AVE.
CONTI- NENTAL AVE./FOREST HILLS
67TH AVE.
63RD DRIVE
GRAND AVE.
If you've seen my E line BVE route, you'll find my rendition of old signs like this as you run down the Queens Blvd Express.
179st, south end of the northbound platform, pillars have original plates.
The only station I can think of that was totally removed from an existing line is Dean Street on the Franklin Avenue shuttle. It was destroyed upon renovation of the line and not replaced.
Can anyone else think of a station totally removed from an existing line today? This excludes existing stations that are closed (18th Street, Worth Street), stations partially destroyed (Myrtle Avenue on the BMT) or stations removed when a line was demolished (Myrtle Avenue el stations, et al).
Do they have to be on the same right-of-way? I'm thinking of Race Track station on the Brighton Line.
On existing rights-of-way, although the right-of-way may have been rebuilt (I'm NOT counting complete replacement--like West End ground-level to elevated):
Consumers Park (between Prospect Park and current Botanic Garden) on the Brighton-Franklin.
Evergreen Avenue (between Broadway and Central Ave.) on the Myrtle.
Park Avenue (between Flushing and Myrtle) on Broadway/Brooklyn.
Paul, I know you don't remember the old Cypress Hills station when it was a center platform station on Crescent St, but have you ever seen a picture of it, other than the one in the Alan Paul Kahn book?
One that I have never seen any pictures of was the old Van Siclen Ave station on Fulton St when it was still a side platform Station.
Yes, I have seen pictures of old Cypress Hills, and evidence of its location is obvious, especially if you look up from the street at the iron and steelwork. I guess you would have to add this station to the list of removed stations on existing lines. Although it has the same name, the new Cypress Hills is not at all in the same location.
This begins to become nit-picking, but I guess I could also include pre-1905 Park Place, since the right-of-way is still about the same. The platforms were south, not north, of Park Place. But they were a very simple affair, low level, and probably wouldn't even be a considered a station, except that trains stopped there.
"Do they have to be on the same right-of-way? I'm thinking of Race Track station on the Brighton Line."
Yes. I'm not referring to spur lines. Otherwise the World's Fair IND station would also fall into this category.
When the LIRR Manhattan Beach line was running along side the BRT Brighton line, How far apart were they?
After 1907 they were on the same embankment, just a few feet of space as a buffer.
Before 1907, from adjacent to a couple of blocks away. See maps in here.
Does anyone know where there are photos showing this?
I remember when I was a child, seeing a large photo showing all six tracks crossing Avenue M.
This photograph was in the window of a butcher shop on Avenue M.
Kings Highway looking north
It appears to me that when the Manhattan Beach branch was removed/torn down it plain disappeared. I've been on the line a few times. The only place I've seen any trace of the line is a curve in the aprtment building when the line first turns south from the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch. Just before it crosses under the Brighton line.
For several decades after its discontinuance there was plenty of plain evidence, especially at street crossings, and the r-o-w was largely unbuilt-on in my memory. The abutments in various condition were still there at many street crossings, though the steelwork was gone.
Then about early or mid '60s, I would say, they built row houses on the right-of-way, which obliterated most of what remained. I think there must still be some evidence at street crossings.
You can still see traces of the supports where the overpasses were still clearly on Avenue M, and Avenue N and serveral other cross streets. There is even remnants of a station including steps near Gravesend Neck Road.
If you look at the photograph on this page:
http://urbanography.com/urban/0006/vita6.htm
...the tracks on the left are the LIRR Manhattan Beach line.
I wish I knew what became of the photograph that was in the butcher's window on Avenue M. It was taken from up high, probably the roof of an apartment building.
Yep....the steps to nowhere.......I remember them dearly.....
Stuart, RLine86Man
I think the remnants of the Manhattan Beach Line over by Edward R. Murrow have since been removed. I recall back in the 70's & 80's there being a sizable amount of the ROW over the crossing by Avenues L and M.
BMTman
When I go back to Murrow (I'm Class of '97) some time, I'll take a look in T.E.R.M.'s photo archives...see if they have anything dating that far back as far as this is concerned.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Stuart, pardon my ingnorance, but what's T.E.R.M.?
Currently on Avenue M, on the north side, the complete concrete support that held the additional two tracks still stands.
You can see exactly where the overpass was removed... will try to take some picture to post.
Wow! I've never seen any photos of the LIRR Manhattan Beach Branch.
I'm looking at the picture on the LIRR side, it looks like a steam engine, two flat cars and a coach. Could this be a "work train" ? Any idea on what year the photo could have been taken ?
Bill "Newkirk"
1907.
Even w/o Paul having posted the year I'd have figured it to be 1903 or thereabouts since you can tell the era was right at the transition between steam and electric (notice new unprotected Third Rail).
BMTman
Actually, the Brighton was first electrified with trolley wire. Trains initailly ran in the open cut with trolley wire while construction was still going on, but the embankment operated from third rail from its opening. The third rail remained uncovered and unprotected until the end of the '50s when BMT section third rail with covers was introduced.
The embankment was littered with DANGER THIRD RAIL signs, just in case some cows wandered onto the right-of-way and thought the third rails were to help them step over the tracks.
Thanks, Paul. MOOOOOOW!
just in case some cows wandered onto the right-of-way and thought the third rails were to help them step over the tracks.
Good things cows can read ...
Yeah, cows are real smart. Look at the one in the Gateway Computer commercial. Those hooves must be hell on the mice though.
"Good things cows can read ..."
One of the benefits of NOT having attended NYC's Public School system.
Alan Gliek
DOH!
I just re-read the post of mine that you're responding to. I spelled my own name wrong!! Double DOH!!
P.S. 209
Alan Glick
Next question:
Is that the original Kings Hwy platforms and canopies ? I'm also oretty sure they were shorter in 1907 before they extended the platforms before Chrystie St.
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe those are. I don't know if all stations on the Brighton Line were consistent length in the 1907 rebuild, but the standard train length in 1907 was 5 elevated cars, about 250 feet.
Even before Chrystie Street, when the mainline Brighton stations were 8 cars, about 540 feet, you could see quite a few locations where they really had to squeeze to lengthen the platforms. Getting off the last car at stations like Beverley or Cortelyou was a bit of a claustrophobic experience, with the moving train on one side of you and the station wall on the other.
Probably is a work train. The road was under construction at this time.
Alan Glick
Paul, thanks for sharing, I enjoyed the photo.
You can still see evidence of that line, mainly where the Brighten crosses roads.
Mr rt__:^)
Nice shot, Paul.
Now if we could just get some help for the Branford 3/4 Ton Crew, we'd be able to reinstall the roadbed, tracks and treselles so LIRR service to Sheepshead Bay could be restored! LOL!
BMTman
Nice!
Thanks for the picture.
thank you for sharing.
There are some great Brighton photos here:
http://www.rapidtransit.com/net/gcbook/raw/index.htm
I'm suprised they can fit anything meaning ful between Botanic Garden and Prospect Park. Kinda a short distance.
And surely Dean St on the Franklin shuttle (see
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/brighton/shuttle.html on this site). Or has this already been mentioned on this thread and I missed it?
Coming up with names of stations of "el" lines that were demolished doesn't count. The line still has to be functioning today.
One comes to mind, the southbound Myrtle Ave subway station north of DeKalb Ave. Only the southbound was removed to facilitate the DeKalb Ave reconfiguring in the late 50s. If you look real good when riding a "bridge" train, you can see what's left of the white ceramic tiles on the tunnel pillars. Strange sight !
Bill "Newkirk"
Was there a station on the lower level of 75th Avenue on the Queens Blvd. Line? What about the Bergen St unused stattion?
avid
There was never a lower level at 75 Ave. There are tracks down there. But they are lay-up tracks and the lead tracks to Jamaica Yard. Maybe at one point there might have been a wye track to allow trains from 71 Ave to Van Wyck Blvd. But no station.
Bergen is another story. The lower level was a station. It hasn't been used in years. There are threads elsewhere on the board where people have discussed it.
I heard that the r-143 is back in service and they got a new set. does anyone know the scheduale that the train follows thanks.
They are not on the road right now, and I do not know when they will be back.
On their way to the depths of Zahadoohm. CI Peter
Well a jump gate opened at Queens Plaza yesterday and R143 came through.
8113-6 were running on the IND with a bunch of employees in front, probably school car. They crossed my V in front of it at 2nd Av. today, then later, I saw it returning when I was getting ready to leave Continental.
I heard the R-62a's where going start testing soon, but I don't know when. Please let me know in when or what dates that these will be happenning. It will be weird to see this but it has to happen.
Regards,
Frankie G. Perez
I know why the R62 needs testing, but if it fails will the MTA reconsider retiring the redbirds or reconstruct the 3 rail on the flushing line?
Does it have to test? These are time tested cars. I don't see why they couldn't run on the (7). They may have had problems in the past, but I beleive those were worked out.
:-) Andrew
Where did this article come from? Did you compose it yourself?
The article appears to be professionally written, thus is probably covered by a copywright.
It is customary to give credit to the author of an article, and the publication it which it appeared, when you copy it word for word.
Everyone on SubTalk should be recognizant of the fact that is it not ethical, and it illegal, to reproduce writings without giving credit to the original author or publication.
When we practice this, it is the same as stealing, and it’s called plagiarism.
When you practice this, you never know who is reading it, and what their connection is to the article. Be safe, protect yourself, and give credit to those who did the grunt work to produce the article.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
downloaded from a news source..
i just wanted to know what eastcoasters thought about it ...
plagiarism.?....please !!! it was for more information........... geeezzz!!!
I have a poll for you guys out there. Maybe we can generate some debate about loyalty concerning various and sundry lines. What are your five favorite lines of the New York subway? Here's mine.
1. The Sea Beach------My train
2. The #7 Train-------The Mets train
3. The Brighton Q-----Bob's train
4. The West End-------Jeff's Train
5. The #1 Train-------Subway and elevated variety.
1.4 line
2.E line
3.Q line
4.Franklin Avenue shuttle
5.A line
1-Brighton Line 2-West End 3-Lex Jerome(because it goes to the Stadium) 4-7 Flushing Line
1. #7 - Flushing Local/Express
2. N - Astoria/Broadway/Sea Beach
3. Q - Broadway/Brighton Express Via Bridge
4. #4 - Lexington Ave. Express
5. V - Queens Blvd/6th Avenue Local Via 53rd St.
#5 is a choice I made not because I particularly enjoy the run, but because of its convenience.
Dan
1. D train (the real one, not the current joke)
2. FRANKLIN SHUTTLE
3. Canarsie line
4. Myrtle MJ (not available)
5. 3rd avenue el (not available)
Neener-neener ...
Fred: Five favorite lines:
1. IRT #5
2. IRT #6
3. IRT #4
4. IRT #7
5 IRT 3 Avenue El
6. BMT #7 (Doug's train)
7. PATH WTC-NWK
Alright so I went two over.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Oh Larry, you're a bundle of laughs today. I also read your other gem about all my fans waiting for me at the campsite adjacent to the Sea Beach. And what the hell is the BMT #7? Decades ago it was the Franklin Shuttle, I think. What is it today? I don;t know of any BMT trains that carry a number but as I've said in the past, all trains should carry numbers.
Fred: I always prefer to use the BMT numbers and my best memories of the Franklin Av Shuttle are when the B-types held sway there. I remember the first time that I rode it. My friend and I had just visted the Prospect Park Zoo and entered the Prospect Park Station at the Lincoln Road entrance. You did not put a token into a turnstile. Instead you gave the railroad agent (Remember when they were called railroad agents)the correct fare and he released the turnstile for you. When we got up to Franklin Avenue both platforms where still in use. You exited on the east side and boarded on the west side. Then you obtained a paper ticket to transfer to the IND. Those paper tickets were actually the same as movie tickets.
The Franklin Avenue Shuttle has always been the orphan home of the BMT. The Green Hornet,Zephyr,Bluebird and the R-11s all ran here, as did the Q's when they first returned home from the IRT. The Q's were good old cars but they had about as much business on the 3 Avenue El as the Lo-V's did on the Franklin Shuttle.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
That is what is so great about the New York Subway. So many of us have such great memories of our childhood days riding the rails that in fact we are still kids where the subway is concerned.
My grandparents lived near the Botanic Gardens/Consumer Park station, one block from Eastern Parkway. So though the Standards no longer used the regular Brighton tracks I got to take many wonderful rides on the old near retirement standards via Franklin Ave. Then I got to ride the R11 three car train.
D train (the real one, not the current joke)
You mean the one that used to use the Culver line?
Smartass. Heh. Nah, the one that ran on 6th Avenue and down the Brighton line and came back ... the one I used to work. The invasion of the IND onto a second line before Brooklynites had to watch their Q's and Q's ... :)
"....the one that ran on 6th Avenue and down the Brighton line and came back..." If it was from 1967-72, when the line was infested with R1/9s, you never knew if they would get there, much less come back.
Heh. Once upon a time, the subway wasn't a boring ride. What can I say? :)
And those oldtimers were music to my ears.:-)
Dewd ...we gotta talk ... can you get some of those "bales of hay" up to the northeast? :)
To me, it was just a frigging job ... and if I didn't get my ass handed to me for being more than 5 minutes late, all the betterer! :)
Car inspectors were your "get out of jail free" ticket dispensers. Heh.
Remember, I'm a musician. My ears pick up sound nuances without my realizing it. Spur-cut bull and pinion gears are very musical to me.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that machines are musical. Trains, of course, are the most musical of all machines, inspiring everyone from John Coltrane (e.g. Blue Train) to Arthur Honneger (e.g. Pacific 3-2-1).
A photocopier can lay down a mean groove too, especially when someone is making a hundred copies of something.
Mark
When I used to ride in from New Haven to Grand Central, the clackety-clack sounds at 70-plus mph made for a nice, rhythmic beat. Still, nothing beats an IND oldtimer for the ultimate symphony of subway sounds.
Or even on the LIRR MUs, or even the diesel push-pull multi-level cars they're using, as they're a little bit louder than the MUs......the sounds of the wheels going over the joints at 'round 70 miles per hour and the sound of the motors themselves. What can I say? I'm a SPEEEEEEEEEED DEEEEEMOOOONNNN :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
So am I. That's why I'm such a big R-10 fan.
It spills over to my American Flyer train operating. I'll wrap the transformer knob and let the train fly. Well, I can get away with it with certain transformers, but not others. My Gibert 19B is pretty tame while my Lionel ZW will blow any locomotive off the track on a curve. Turns any loco into an R-10.
In my high school the font office photo copier sounded a LOT like the into of "Jailhouse Rock".
:-) Andrew
That is the real D-train. Culver. You may even say, with a Church Ave. terminal.
1.N Sea Beach\B-Way Exp.\Astoria
2.2 White Plains\7th Ave & B-Way\Brooklyn?
3.E Queens Exp.via 53rd\8th Ave.
4.Qdmond Queens Exp.via 63th\B-Way\Brrighton(The Qdmond is the real (Q).)
5.K CPW\6th Ave.\Nassua St.-B-Way BKLYN\Canarsie(not real)
CWDT: Sea Beach first? Well, well, some new class added to Subtalk. Can I compliment you on your extraordidnary discriminating taste? Good job.
To me it's a nice line,when it was express in Manhattan.I remember going into the Whitehall Station and seeing the (N) train come rolling through the station.That was my third Station I ever went down and the first train that I went in and be able to look out the rail-fan window.It was fun riding that R40M.
My favorite routes of all time:
1. <7> -- Flushing Express
2. (4) -- Lexington Ave./Woodlawn Exp.
3. (D) -- Concourse/6th Ave./Brighton Exp. (no longer available in Brooklyn, even when the Manny B reopens)
4. (F) -- Queens Blvd. Exp./6th Ave. Lcl./Culver Exp. (no longer available, though hopefully that will change in a few years)
5. (MJ) -- Myrtle Local (definitely no longer available, but the sound of those wooden cars coming around the curve at Wyckoff is still one of my all-time favorites in the system).
1. F (Queens Blvd/6 Av/Culver)
2. Q (6 Avenue - Brighton Exp, Too bad it's gone)
3. 4 (Lex Av Express - Jerome Local)
4. R (Queens Blvd/B'way/4 Av Local)
5. A (8 Avenue/Fulton Street Express)
There it is.
1. #7 Flushing Express
2. #4/5 Lexington Express
3. E/F Queens Blvd Express
4. A/D CPW Express
5. S Rockaway Park
Tie for #1 & #2- Canarsie Line and Myrtle Ave. El. Since I grew up in Ridgewood about equal distance from Halsey St. Station and Forest Ave. Station, it's a tough choice. Perhaps an edge to the El since both had Standards in the '60's but the El also had the Q cars, which I loved (except they were soooo sloooow!).
#3 Brighton Line for all the times I used to take it to go to Brighton Beach and Coney Island
#4 8th Ave Line. - loved those R-10's on the A train -but they were so loud that you couldn't hear what you were thinking!
#5 Every other line - I never met a Subway Line I didn't like :-)
The R-10s weren't that bad in their heyday. Maybe I blotted out the noise while staring, transfixed, through the railfan window while rocketing past local stop after local stop along CPW.
The 1/9.
The 2 (when express)
The A (Rockaway)
The 5
The Grand Ctrl Shuttle
1. West End
2. Sea Beach
3. IND to Culver
4. Jerome El
5. IND Rockaway
1. N ... nuff said
2. 4 (back when it used to be Lex "express", not the slow disappointment it has been degraded to)
3. 6
4. Q over it's 15 year detour, I was born during that time, so I'll definetly remember it. The current Q exp is good as well.
5. M, W ... they're both special, not to mention my second lines to home.
Well if you had voted any other way for No. 1 I would have had a case apoplexy. But you came through and did the right thing. The Sea Beach rules.
LOL, don't worry about it Fred. It's covered : D
1. IRT 42 shuttle
2. IRT Lexington
3. IRT 7th Av
4. IRT Flushing
5. BMT Sea Beach (because I haven't ridden any other Brooklyn lines :-)
The IRT is the best division.
The IRT is the best division. Good for you Rob. Its nice to meet someone who appreciates quality.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
The IRT is NOT the best division, the BMT is. Well you're from the South and, well, what can you expect. However, thanks for taking part in this survey. All in good fun.
Fred: Where on earth did you get the idea that I was from the south. I'm a Yankee through and through. You're the one from the south. (South Brooklyn)
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
No, no Redbird, I know you are a Yankee. I meant Ron from Atlanta. I don't know how this confusion came about.
I can't wait for Bob to return.:-)
It's nice to see everybody is butchering my name. In real life, people call me one of three names: Robby, Rob or Robert, so an extra name or two won't matter. You know, Fred, California isn't exactly known for having the brightest of people. And if I didn't know you wern't from New York living in Cali, I would have guessed you were from the south, in all seriousness. But yeah, everyone here in "Jo-Ja" LOVES the IRT, becuase it's soooooo southern (note the sarcasm). :-)
Anyway, I'm a Transportation Engineer, so when I say the IRT is the best, I look at it from a practical view, not an emotional one. The simple, yet effective layout of the IRT is brilliant: Two trunk lines on either side of the island connected in the middle by the shuttle, and at the bottom at South Ferry as a bonus. It covers all the important areas as efficently as possible. The BMT, on the other hand, is just a unorganized jumble of former private lines. They got the leftovers, if you will. They only got one major trunk line in Manhattan, and another small one that is under used.
You really hit me where I live Roberto. Just to put some new colors in your paint box, we have the greatest institute of higher learning in our great state. Ever heard of Cal-Tech? Rated No. 1 for three straight years back in the mid-90's. And our UC Cal system is still the best educational program in the country. And don't give me any pass from being a native New Yorker. While I'm proud of that, I am ardent and passionate Californian, proud plus of the greatest state in the Union. As far as my intelligence is concerned, well sometimes I have a doubt or two about that myself. I do have a Masters Degree and was once tested with an IQ of 130. But what really upsets me is that you think the BMT is small potatoes. In Brooklyn and most of Manhattan the BMT rules. When I was a kid most of us went out of our way not to use the IRT because we thought it was second rate. This may be emotional but not for the reason you might think. The IRT's birthday is October 27. Guess what my birthday is?
I was just kidding around with you. That's why I put the smiley face, because it does look insulting when you first read it. Anyway, you did prove my point about CA: while there are lots of respectable things about CA, a few can spoil the whole bunch, same goes with the south.
What made the BMT good was its ahead-of-its-time rolling stock. With quality work like the standards and trixplexs (articulated will always be the best in my book) and innovators like the Zephyr, the BMT had superior cars.
The IRT is still better though :-)
Maybe we can both take a trip to New York at the same time and catch a Braves-Mets game. I take it you're for the Braves. Ought to make an interesting evening.
Sounds good to me. I'm not a die-hard Braves fan, but you will see some heckling that would make a New Yorker blush :-)
Let's keep in touch on this. Maybe we will be in the big city around the same time. I'm retiring this June so traveling is a big part of my plans, God willing.
The heckling can't be as bad as a Mets game at Wrigley Field.
And at ballgames, the Native Californians I have seen in LA and SF are wimps. At least when the Mets are visiting.
At least we don't have to deal with John Off-his-Rocker anymore.
I never got any grief from Rockies fans when I would wear my Mets cap at Mile High Stadium in Denver (it is currently being demolished).
If they're demolishing MHS, where do the Broncos play now (or WILL play)????????
Stuart, RLine86Man
As Nixon used to say, "I'm glad you asked that question".
Denver has a brand-spanking new football stadium which was built right next to Mile High Stadium. It's called Invesco Field at Hile High and it opened last August. The seating capacity is 76,125, or two more than in the old stadium, buy physically the new arena is much larger. The playing surface is natural grass which is secured by means of several million fibers pushed into the subsoil. The roots grow around these fibers, anchoring the turf in place. The idea is to prevent divots from being torn up.
Interestingly enough, The Denver Post refuses to call it by its new name. Instead, the new venue is referred to as "the new Mile High".
Our new Central Platte Valley light rail spur has a station within walking distance of the new stadium.
And speaking of politicos and bozos on this bus ... Many busy executives ask me ... "what about the city of the future?" Well, count on us to be there. Thank you very much, exit left to funway, No flashes, please."
I've done the mile high thing, but how do I get to Brighton Beach? I know ... practice, practice ...
Rob: Lets not be too hard on Sea Beach Fred. It was all that LSD that Tim Leary put in the reservoirs out there back in the 60's that accounts for the peculiar state of affairs in that state.
It interesting to hear your commentary on the IRT since you are a transit professional. I have made that point before that when the IRT built the subways they did it to compliment the existing el lines and not replace them. The IRT managed to a great extent to keep both operations separate from each other giving the varying weight requirements of the els and acheived a very high degree of utilization of their equiptment.
The BMT on the other hand could never quite make up its mind if it wanted to be a subway line or an el line. Were the cars to be nine feet wide or ten feet wide? Even today about 1/3 of the Division B fleet cannot operate over the Eastern Section of the BMT. One of the things that I never understood was that hairpin curve at Crescent Street on the orignal Lexington Avenue El,now today's Jamaica Line. Even the BU's had to go slow around it and the Standards possitively had to craw. Its been holding down traffic speeds for years.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wouldn't quite call me a transit professional, so far, I have just designed roads for my state DOT. I'm still in school, but taking a semester off to work there full time. Utimately, I want to get into transit, and with $15 billion availibe for the next 15 years here in Atlanta for transit, I have a good chance of doing it.
Uh oh, Larry, you have just given me a free pass for my bizarre fascination with the Sea Beach. I can always blame Tim baby for screwing the water out here. We are a little different out here but we have a lot of fun and we lay back and smell the freaking coffee and no one gets bent out of shape with various and sundry lifestyles. We live and let live---and this is coming from an ardent and passionate Republican. But, hey, it's ok, we are also having fun here and unless some jerk I don;t know gets personal with me, I can let my trusted colleagues giving me the what-for. And you are one of them
One of the things that I never understood was that hairpin curve at Crescent Street on the orignal Lexington Avenue El,now today's Jamaica Line. Even the BU's had to go slow around it and the Standards possitively had to craw. Its been holding down traffic speeds for years.
Perhaps due to a wealthy landowner that was unwilling to provide an easement for a straighter route?
--Mark
The 1/9 line is my favorite because that's the one that my favorite composer, Bela Bartok, rode between his house in the Bronx and his job at Columbia University.
(I don't know which subway line runs closest to Bartok's house in Budapest.)
Mark
New York borrowed an idea from the original Budapest subway: a flat tunnel roof.
Are you familiar with Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra? I played it in college just before graduating. That work even had its premiere perforance in Carnegie Hall.
Yep, a right delightful piece it is! Bartok wrote that and his last piano concerto in New York. My favorites are his string quartets.
on topic: My first ever ride on a Redbird was on my quest to find Bartok's house a few years ago.
Mark
When I saw my part in the fourth movement of that Concerto for Orchestra for the first time (I'm a timpanist), I thought Bartok had to be on drugs. There's a very famous passage calling for multiple tuning changes with changing odd meters. I can still play it today.
I wonder if Bartok took the subway to Carnegie Hall for its premiere. The Boston Symphony did the honors.
He may have...I have a book about Bartok's years in New York, and it was full of details like that, so I'll check and see if he in fact rode the subway to his performances.
Mark
Also, I've taken a look at the score for the Concerto for Orchestra myself. It almost made my head hurt!
Mark
I have the score for it, too, as well as a tape from our performance in college. We pulled it off pretty well, I thought. Oh, there was a missed cymbal crash in the first movement and I vapor locked in the third movement at the point where I have that first double-stop (I dubbed in the missing notes a few years ago), and we used a baritone sax instead of a third bassoon in the second movement. Plus two of my notes in that famous passage in the fourth movement were a tad sharp. Little things. I must admit that I think of New York and the subway when I hear that piece today.
My top 5:
1: The A (R-10s or no R-10s)
2: The diamond Q
3: The 7
4: The N, a sentimental favorite
5: The D (would rank higher with different equipment)
U know ...any railfan equipped line ....!!!
I agree with this post.
1- The FULL (B), not the silly-arse one it is now...
2- The Franky Shuttle [Franklin/(S)]
3- The entire stretch of the Brighton elevated from the start of the enbankment around Emmons/Neptune Avenues to the undergrade curves out of Prospect Park, North Side. (what was once the REAL (Q), not the "diamond" one)
4- The entire stretch of (1) from 96th Street all the way to 242nd/VC
5- The good ol' (7), but better yet, especially going out to Main Street -> <7> [I'm a speeeeed demon :-D]
And last but not least-
6- The approach from the subway to elevated on the (4). Why???? Because it passes my third home. (Care to take a guess where THAT is? :-D )
Stuart, Rline86 and 4Line161StMan (I just gave it away)
1. T - B'way/West End Exp (R32s) (Haven't taken the W yet.)
2. 7 - Flushing Exp (R36 WFs)
3. F - Hillside/QB Exp (R1-9s & R40 slants)
4. A - CPW/8 Av Exp (R10s)
5(tie) 4/5 Lex Exp, 2/3 7av Exp (Redbirds)
Mine are:
1. #4/5 Tie
2. D
3. 7 Express
4. N
5. E
Wayne
- Q (Brighton Exp)...see final word.
- D (Brighton Loc)...See above.
- L (Canarsie)...old line, very unique esp. the Fulton El remnants at Atlantic and Van Sinderen
- A (8th Ave Exp)...zoom zoom. Me such sucker for speed, and nice stations enroute.
- Z (Nassau Exp)...see above, except the nice stations part. Good speedy train tho.
Brighton line is the best, arguably.
-J!
Fred, Only 8th Ave Steve, Salaamallah & Astoria ... Railfan hit the nail on the head (from my point of view), i.e. it's the equipment on the line that makes the ride.
For example a Slant 40 on the L leaving Manhattan vs. a Hippo doing it, or a Red Bird on the Lex or Broadway vs. a R-142, and last but not least a R-32 or R-38 on the Brighten vs. Hippo.
Mr rt__:^)
Don't forget about the slants on the diamond Q. Remember the locals we dusted last October?
The R-10s on the A still top my list.
I knew you were going to say that !
We all have our favorites & it's the car that wisks us down that farorite line that realy makes the trip enjoyable.
I'm just glad that there are a few combinations left out there to savor !
Hippos, Rinos & R-142s are OK, they are just not FUN.
Mr rt__:^)
The former are booooooooorrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnng.
Hey Thurston, I know you're a professional transportation man so I'm not going to get into any argument with you on that score. Besides, I don't ride the subway except when I get to New York, but to me I always felt that certain lines were just more entertaining to ride than others. PS. I still wear that cap you gave me and I treat it like it was part of my body. Maybe we'll touch base when I get into the city. I did left a message on your phone wishing you a happy new year. Sorry you didn't get it.
My 5 favorite lines are as follows:
The #7 (exp runs)
The "Q" (exp runs)
The "A" to Far Rockaways
The "J" train
The "L" (The serpentine route)
MsSEPTA: The #7 first. I like that. I call it the Mets train. And, hoping that Q Brightliner doesn't faint, the Q is a good choice. I'm kind of sorry the N isn't included in your pantheon of greatness, but a half-loaf is better than no loaf at all.
If it'll make you feel better, I included the N as a sentimental favorite. After all, that was the very first subway train I ever rode on.
I saw that Steve but I never had a doubt that you would come through for me. Was it in July, 1965 that you first rode th at train? And, of course, it was you who gave me my handle.
Fred: There is no denying that you are a Sea Beach fan of the first water.I see from my notes that the R-32 Brightliners began regular service on the #4 on January 18,1965 even though they had made a brief appearance before that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Well Larry, I just learned something else. I was not aware that the Sea Beach was still carrying the #4 as late as January , 1965. I have a picture taken of a Sea Beach train on May 2, 1964 as it was carried the letter N. Was there a time, therefore, when the Sea Beach carried both the N and 4? If so, it could be because different cars carried different insignias.
Before the R-32s made their appearance, all weekend Southern Division service was covered by R-27/30s once they had arrived in sufficient numbers. Look at the front bulkhead sign in your photo. If it says "N-Broadway/Sea Beach", it's an R-27/30.
May 2 fell on Saturday in 1964, so chances are you have a photo of an R-27/30 N train.
I remember May 2, 1964 very well. I went to Dodger Stadium for the second night in a row and watched the Giants and the Dodgers to battle. Though Don Drysdale stuffed the Giants on the first, on May 2, Duke Snider, playing for the Giants, hit a two run homer in the ninth to send the game into overtime and the Giants won in extra innings. How's that for a memory? You could look it up.
And Duke wound up wearing number 28 with the Giants. He knew he wouldn't be able to wear 4 because that was Mel Ott's number and the Giants had already retired it.
BTW, Duke spent the 1963 season with the Mets.
Good show Steve. You're a real baseball fan.
Did you ever pick a video copy of the Mets' first 25 years? It came out in '86 and features a clip of Snider hitting a home run into the upper deck in right field at the Polo Grounds to win a game for the Mets. It was early in the season, and Duke was still wearing number 11. The Mets held a Duke Snider Night later that year. Imagine the irony - Duke Snider Night at the Polo Grounds. Duke made a nice comment: "The Mets are wonderful but you can't take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn."
I have the book that came out a year later just after the Mets had won the World Series. You are longer in time Mets fan than I am. I became a Mets fan during the 1983 season because I managed a Stan Musial team called the Mets. By '84 they had Gooden, Hernandez, Backman, Straw and the makings of that great team that won it all in 1986. As far as Duke Snider was concerned, I know something he doesn't want to admit. I remember very well him saying he was looking forward to moving to Los Angeles. He was one of the few players who wanted to leave. Two years later he changed his tune and realized what he had in Brooklyn. He became the most intense fan of the old Brooklyn team, which he is today. I've met him three times, and he is a nice guy and I have numerous articles signed by him. I told him that when I lived in New York I wore a baseball shirt that had #4 on it and it was my favorite number. What I didn't tell him was that it was my favorite number first of all because of the Sea Beach. Snider didn't come up to stay with the Dodgers until the summer of 1948. I rode the #4BMT Sea Beach on April 19, 1947 for the first time. So the train came before the Duke.
The Best Number 4 in NY Baseball was the Iron Horse. Sweet Lou Gehrig
Ask any Giants fan and he'll tell the best #4 was Mel Ott.
Ask any Mets fan: #4 Ron Swoboda or #4 Rusty Staub
You might find it hard to hear it coming from me but the all time #4 belongs to Lou Gehrig of the Yankees. The Iron Horse tops all the All Time All Star Teams as the first baseman. I have never seen an All-Time team posted when this wasn't so. And it is justifiable.
What Fred picking a Yankee, wonders never siece
Bob---As my good friend you should know like my other friends do that I do not fit into any box or compartment. I am totally unpredictable on where I stand on any issue. I take them one at a time and I have been told that on some I make liberals look like reactionaries. I enjoy keeping people guessing, but when it comes to Lou Gehrig there can be no argument.
PS--Have you and Steve got your things down yet. I will react to what you guys work out.
I will be up on the 11th, Wedding 12th, trains 13/ Mouse and Steve it is up to them
Stop the presses!!!!!:-)
Swoboda originally wore number 14 as a rookie in 1965. Then the Mets acquired Ken Boyer from St. Louis and granted him #14, since he had worn it while with the Cards. Rocky simply dropped one digit and became number 4. Rusty Staub wore 4 only because his familiar number 10 was being worn by Duffy Dyer. When Dyer was traded to the Pirates before the 1975 season, Staub switched to #10. He then wore 10 during his second tenure with the Mets from 1981 through 1985.
There are photos of Dave Kingman wearing number 4 when the Mets first obtained him in 1975. He switched to 26 early on.
Go figure: when Duke Snider joined the Mets, Charley Neal was wearing number 4 and refused to give it up. So Duke took number 11 at first, then switched back to 4 after Neal was traded in mid-season. The story goes Neal was traded just so Duke could get his number back.
It was a different story when the Mets got Willie Mays. Jim Beauchamp was wearing number 24 and quietly gave it up for Willie, knowing it would have been unthinkable to have Mays wear anything but 24. There has been debate as to whether or not the Mets should retire number 24. Since Mays retired, only two players have worn it: Kelvin Torve in 1989 and Rickey Henderson. If you were to ask me, I'd say put it back into circulation. I was a big fan of Willie Mays, but his contribution to the Mets was minimal. He had nothing left by then. The Mets supposedly were to retire #24 when Mays retired, but Joan Whitney Payson, who adored Willie, never got around to issuing the order to do so.
Have you read Campy's book It's Good To Be Alive? Campy said the same thing about Duke as well. Duke was from California and lived there during the offseason. Hodges wanted no part of the West Coast. Nor did Pee Wee Reese. Don Drysdale wasn't too thrilled about moving, even though he was also a native Californian.
Steve: Right on again. In fact, except for Snider and one other member of the 1957 Brooklyn Dodgers ( who I can't recall), it was 23-2 against the move. That is pretty decisive if you ask me. Snider can fool the rest of them but we know the score. He wanted to come West until he got a taste of it, then longed for the borough of Brooklyn.
July 21, 1965, to be exact. I became an R-32 fan for life that day. They looked so bright and shiny.
Steve: I remember the first time that I saw a brand new Brightliner. I don;t recall the exact date but I was riding a train of Bluebirds to the World's Fair and when we pulled into Queensboro Plaza there was a brand new train of R-32A's on the opposite track. They really looked pretty sharp with there nice blue doors.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember my first R32 also. I was on Sheepshead Bay Rd. in the street, not the station. When I saw the car, I was taken aback by the stainless steel. I had not seen an R11 yet, so I never saw a stainless steel subway before. I could not wait until I was able to ride.
The topper was the green backlit side signs. Nothing could top "Coney Island" backlit in green.
(7) For its wonderful view of Queens and Manhattan approaching (or departing.)
(1) Sentimental favorite. First subway train I ever rode
(J) For a side of Brooklyn and Queens few non-New Yorkers visit.
(N) for the Astoria run and the skyline right next to it.
(F) Hey it's my train. Love the new 63rd St routing.
:-) Andrew
Handy Andy: You placed your train fifth. Wow! That is what I call being open minded. You've got me there. I could never, NEVER put the Sea Beach anywhere but number 1. I like the idea of the #7 being first on your list. I had it second. There's quite a bit of scenery to be viewed. A good ride.
The (F) is "my train" inasmuch as it's the train I takre to work every day, the train that comes closest to my apartment, and since since it comes close to work too, it's the best choice. Still, it's a relatively boring ride through Queens and Manhattan, except for the novelty of 63rd St (which has very nice stations BTW.) The other routes on my list are more favored to me as "fun" lines. In particular, I take the (7) for a change of pace every so often.
:-) Andrew
Brighton Line is second to none. Elevated, embankment, open cut and subway. Express and local ready to roll. ON BOARD.
1 -- it takes me home, it has lots of variety, and it makes good speed for a local
2 of a year ago -- thrilling Redbird express run
N -- the Sea Beach open cut is relaxing and, like the 1, it moves fast
L -- wonderful station mosaics
7 -- the view
#1: J. Historical significance.
#2: W (West End). Nice elevated run and jaunt under 4th Ave.
#3: Q Brighton. My home line.
#4. 7. Great express run.
#5. 2 when it used to run express ont he Wst Side.
Ask me tomorrow and I'll probably have a different answer :)
--Mark
in order
number 1 is F current and previous.
number 2 is E from jamaica Center to WTC
number 3 is 4 train entire route period
number 4 is number 2 from 241-flatbush EXP only
number 5 is A train
For the Queens terminal of (F), will it ever be extended eastward beyond the present 179 Terminus? That's of course after the 2nd Ave planning.
It won't happen. The land use patterns in Queens are based on current subway routes - east of 179th (and Main St.) is predominantly low-rise, with one and two family homes interspersed with small apartments. Bus feeders serve these areas - any subway extension is sure to be opposed by neighborhood groups. And the advent of Metrocard has ended the old issue of two fare zones.
There will be and if anyone has something to say at a hearing there will be shotgun arguments (like a shotgun wedding).
Now I've been thinking of having certain lines revise their service after the Manhattan Bridge reopens both ends.
B- Continues operating between Coney Island and 145 St. (Extended to Bedford Park on Peak) for weekdays (Overnight trains as usual will terminate at 36 St.). For weekends, it will operate to 59 St.
C- Should be extended to Lefferts Blvd. all the time when operating (No Overnight service)
D- It will continue to operate between Coney Island and 205 St as an all day express.
F- Will continue as it is right now.
W- Will only operate between 36 St. (Brooklyn) to Whitehall Stn.
Q Express- Retain its Broadway line status and operate express throughout the route between Brighton Beach to Parsons and Hillside.
If you think that if my ideal plan won't work, then give me suggestions and I'll get back with ya.
What will be Brighton local????
The D will remain as a local.
If both the D and Q are running express on Brighton, what's running local? Also why the W between only Whitehall and 36th? The W would have to relay outside of the 36th Street Station (probably somewhere along the West End line) in order not to tie up service on the B and N. Why not run the W all the way to Coney Island and terminate the B at Bay Pkwy?
The Brighton local could be the (M) if you run the (W)via West End.
Well, what will happen is that the (Q) will operate as an Express throughout the line via the Manhattan Broadway lines and through the 63rd. St tunnels.
The W could very well be canceled.
Sorry, the (W) will just terminate at 59 St. (Brooklyn) turning back at 8 Av. (Brooklyn).
Well Phil, I see your plan doesn't even mention where the Sea Beach goes, and that simply means your plan isn't worth beans as presently constituted and, therefore, it's back to the drawing boards. Try again and don 't neglect my train.
The Sea Beach remains the same as it is right now, except that by 2005 once Coney Island terminal platform reopens, it will go back to Coney Island. Nothing more will happen to the Sea Beach Line or (N) itself.
I think Fred wanted you to say the N would be back on the bridge and the Broadway express tracks where it belongs. I have to agree with him on that.
I don't really think so, what about the overnight service between BMT City Hall and Pacific St. & Atlantic Av.?
That's right Phil. Listen to Steve8AVEXP. He is absolutely right, and since you want to keep my train in the Montague Tunnel, no offense intended, your plan sucks.
Sure, I know people make mistakes, but you still haven't replied about if (N) were to go through the bridge and the express tracks of the Broadway line (Canal to 57 St.), what about the overnight service on the Montague tunnel (City Hall to Pacific St)?
You have the R train and you can use that new W contraption. That ought to get the job done Big Phil.
So, you're saying that the overnight (R) train should be resurrected when the Manhattan Bridge reopens and where will the (R) overnight service terminate anyway 57 St., Manhattan?
It doesn't bother Fred that Astoria would have no service nor downtown Brooklyn. But it won't happen, though. The Slow Beach will be making all local stops nights, weekends, evenings.
I think Fred's blood pressure just went through the roof.
B terminating at 59th Street? Where do you suggest the B should relay at?
How will the W be relayed at 36th Street with the "N" and "B" using the express tracks?
North of 59th Street as it turns back just north of the station.
First the N will use the local tracks, secondly, the (B) will still be using the express tracks. For the (W) however, we could just have it terminate at 59th St. (Brooklyn) and turn back at around 8th Av. (Brooklyn)
Sorry, about that. I was thinking if (B) during weekends would terminate at just 57th. St. (IND) instead of the 59th. St. (8 Av. IND).
With the feedback that I've have gathered from users, I've decided to revise my ideal plan for the MTA once the Manhattan Bridge reopens both sides.
B- For the weekday/weekend service it will continue terminating at 145 Street, Manhattan (extended to Bedford Park Blvd., Bronx during Peak hours). Overnight service will only operate to 36 St., Brooklyn.
D- The service will go back to Coney Island (Stillwell Ave.) and it will continue to terminate at 205 St., Bronx. Retaining it's express status in Manhattan and local through Brooklyn and Bronx.
F- The service will continue on as it is right now.
N- Will operate as it is right now, except that the line will be diverted to Manhattan Bridge and returns to the Express Tracks (Canal to 34 St)
Q- Will operate as an express service during weekdays, retaining its Broadway Line Status (Brighton Beach to Parsons & Hillside) Remains express throughout the line.
R- For the service it will return to the Montague Tunnels (City Hall to Pacific St.), but it will gain an overnight service by terminating at 57 St., Manhattan during overnight hours.
If you still have any suggestions, I'll personally take your requests and make some changes when necessary.
The Q will and I will repeat WILL NEVER OPERATE VIA QUEENS BVD.
Stop pushing it because it's never going to happen
Take it from someone who knows
Thank You
Hey Phil, how come we aren't as smart as Barry is? And Barry, how to you know? Do you work for the TA? If you do, that's cheating. You have inside information. If you worked in the Stock Market the SEC would be all over you.
Barry doesn't know. He lives in Florida. He used to live in New York, but he didn't work for NYC Transit even then (not in the recent past, anyway).
Since NYCT hasn't completed plans for full operations on the Manhattan Bridge, anyone who "knows" what's going to happen is blowing smoke.
David
One reason Barry is probably right is that if the TA thought it was a good idea, they would have done it in December 2001.
You don't want to make major changes frequently, so the TA probably won't do anything until the MB reopens. By then the thinking will probably be "The Q is committed to go up 2nd Ave in a few years so why send it to Queens temporarily?"
So even though no poster here claims to have inside information, it sure seems unlikely that the Q will go to Queens.
But if all we talked about here were ideas that really had a high chance of being adopted by the TA, what fun would that be?
AIM: That's ok with me. I like hallucinating about what ought to be going over the Manny B. I just hope I don't get tabbed as an old crank. I will go out on a limb and say the work on the Manny B will not be finished by 2004. Well, I guess that isn't going too far out at that.
As far as I remembered the 63rd/Manny B Proposal Summary from the Straphanger Campaing Web Site. There are no statement mention about extending the Q to Queen Blvd. I think that we all shall wait what the Manny B future will bring. Maybe the TA will have their final descision as late as last quarter of the year 2003 or first quarter in 2004. What I would like to see first thing happening on day of Manny reopen was that the N will return to the Bridge. As far as Q route are concern, we not know wether the Q run on Broadway or 6th Ave. Like said be4. Its up to the TA to deside what will happen in 2004. The clock is still ticking!
The TA has to decide, heh? That's what I'm afraid of. My recurring nightmare is that the Montague Tunnel is going to be synonomous with the N train.
Just to let you know that I have no inside information and i use to work in Operations Planning and I knew some people who worked there.
The following information will give you some insight on the operations of the system and i belive you will be able to understand some postings and why some changes that sound good on paper can not be done for various reasons. Any information that follows is BASED ON AM PEAK RUSH WHICH IS HOW OPERATIONS PLANNING DETERMINES RIDERSHIP BECAUSE AM PEAK IS THE MOST CROWDED PART OF THE DAY.
The Queens Blvd Line is a 4 track line between Queens Plaza and 179th Street/Jamaica with a 2 track spur from Van Wyck/Briarwood to Jamaica Center via Archer Ave. It consists of 1 local and 1 express track in each direction (except for Archer Ave which is 1 track in each direction). It is divided into 2 zones by Operations Planning. An Inner Zone between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave and an Outer Zone between Continental Ave and 179th Street or Jamaica Center.
The inner zone now consists of 2 local services (R and V and prior to Dec 2001 the G and R)Lines. It operates at approx 95% signal capacity which means there is room for additional service at least on Queens Blvd. So lets say you wanted to add an additonal R train you could provided there is additonal room on other parts of the R Line which is the Broadway Line in Manhattan and the 4th Avenue Line in Brooklyn.If you could not add an additonal Broadway Line local service then you can not add any more trains on any part of the R)
The express lines(currently the E and F )operate at 100% capacity now which means under the current signal set up any changes that are to be made on the Express line have to come at the expense of current service since no additional trains can be added). Basically until the signal system is upgraded nothing can be done and i believe the signals were upgraded in the last several years which means it will be about 15 to 40 years from now before anything can be done. Please note that i am not sure about this.
The Outer Zone prior to December 1988 consisted of one local service the E and 1 express service the F. At Continental Avenue the E line had a higher load factor than the F. This meant that the E was the most crowded line at Continental from entering passengers between 75th Ave and 179th Street).
Between December 1988 and the early 1990's the Outer Zone consisted of 1 local service (R Line) and 2 express services(E and F Lines) but it was the F Line with the Higher Load Factor instead of the E. What happened was that no additonal riders were entering the system but because of Archer Ave ridership patterns changed as follows:
At 169th Street,Stuphin Blvd,Van Wyck/Briarwood and 75th Ave you had a reduction in service because the R train ran less frequent than the E did).At 179th Street and Parsons/Hillside you also had less service with the R Local and the split E and all F express than the old E and F service. Only entering passengers at Union Turnpike had an increase of serice with 3 routes instead of the old 2 . In addition passengers at 169th St,Stuphin and Van Wyck lost one seat express service to Manhattan and opted to transfer to the E and F. So the F now had the Highest Load Factor than the E and the R was basically empty when the train reached Contintental Ave.
After the 179th Street R service was discontinued all of these riders basically shifted to the F. Remember 169th Street entering ridership decreased post Archer Avenue because the TA buses that termiinated there where shifted to Archer Ave and the E
I hope this information will help you understand how the TA makes decisions. Sometimes they have no choice and please one more thing.
Operations Planning today does not know what they are doing. The perfect example was the Grand Street mess
Thank You
i use to work in Operations Planning ...The inner zone now consists of 2 local services (R and V and prior to Dec 2001 the G and R)Lines. It operates at approx 95% signal capacity...The express lines(currently the E and F )operate at 100% capacity
How did Operations Planning define and/or measure "signal capacity"?
Steven, Capacity is determined how many trains can pass from the first signal to the second signal to the third signal etc etc between Station A to Station B etc at a safe distance without hitting a red signal and making sure that there is a safe distance between each train so they are no collisions should a train be forced to stop between stations.
You want to operate between stations in a non stop movement and not stop and go at each signal
Thank You
You want to operate between stations in a non stop movement and not stop and go at each signal
If one were to go the the front end of any station on the Queens Blvd line, one would find a signal. As the train leaves the station this signal's aspect turns red. It will eventually turn yellow and then green. If one were to measure the time interval between the signal's turning red and its turning green that time would be within 90 seconds. This woud seem it indicate a capacity of around 40 tph based on your definition of signal capacity.
This woud seem it indicate a capacity of around 40 tph based on your definition of signal capacity.
You forget (yet again) that the TA has imposed safety requirements which mandate a minimunm amount of space that must be maintained between each train to avoid collision if one should run a red signal at a normal speed. This cuts capacity significantly.
You forget (yet again) that the TA has imposed safety requirements which mandate a minimunm amount of space that must be maintained between each train to avoid collision if one should run a red signal at a normal speed.
Are you suggesting that a signal would be green and permit less than 750 feet of separation between trains?
This cuts capacity significantly.
Have you taken the trouble to calculate the closest approach between trains at various headways?
I have. The increase of the minimum separation from 600 to 750 feet makes no difference to trains operating on the Queens Blvd line. Trains operating at 90 second headways, with 30 second dwell times in stations never approach within 750 feet of one another. The aspects of all the signals protecting blocks will always be green. The same holds for 660 foot trains.
How much did increasing the minimum separation from 600 to 750 reduce minimum headways? It means any train travelling at speed (say 40 mph) would have to be 150 feet further back than had the minimum spacing been 600 feet. The time to travel 150 feet at 40 mph is 2.6 seconds. So, if Queens Blvd line were really reblocked then one would expect a signal that had previously taken 90 seconds to cycle from green to red and back to green should take 92.6 seconds. This would reduce the headway from 40 tph to 39 tph.
Are you suggesting that a signal would be green and permit less than 750 feet of separation between trains?
I suggest nothing. All I'm saying is that the safe minimum distance between trains has increased significantly over the years. This makes capacity limits from the 1960's, which you often quote, meaningless.
Have you taken the trouble to calculate the closest approach between trains at various headways?
Not in a million years. But I'll take the TA's numbers over yours, as they're based on actual operating conditions, which sometime conflict with your attempts to reduce everything to a self-pleasing equation.
I use the Queens Blvd. line. I board the "F" at Van Wyck at 05:34 am.
Sometimes I must use the next "F" due to delays finding a parking spot or parking further from the station. I see what appears to be seatless "E" trains. The "F" usually have seats available, and I get a choice, unless one of the urban disadvantaged marked off his/her/their territory with scent markers.
It would appear that the only possible increase in express service would be the return to 11 car or 660ft, or 600ft + train sets.
I say it this way because as we all know, there are various combinations of 60ft, 67ft, and 75ft cars that can exceed 600ft.
To my knowledge, most "E"&"F" platforms can accomadate 660ft trains from 179th St to WTC and Church St. I cannot say for the Culver "el"
platforms.
Some important topics must be considered due to recent statements by the new Mayor.
1) Cost of new subwaycars Vs. rehab and reroof with Stainless steel of the R/38s,R/40,R/40M, and R/42 and R/44s.
This has hidden pluses, It keeps US dollars in the US and employs US workers.
avid
Isn't the R-160 going to replace the aging R-32, R-38's?
R-160 to my limited knowledge has not been issued yet.
If it is to be considered though, a judgement call should be made on new, overseas purchase VS. domestic GOH keeping US dollars in the US and creating US jobs. Maybe a combination of the two.
If we , the taxpayers are to be asked to foot the bill for this expense, we should see more of it here, in these tight times.
Anything less is expensive FOREIGN boy Toys for those that didn't properly care for the current fleet. Lets correct that error this time around. Patriotism isn't only in the armed forces.
avid
The Culver El stations are NOT capable of holding 660' trains.
Which is why the D, not the F, ran on the Culver line after the IND connection opened in 1954.
I think 660' train operation is impossible today. Many stations have had this extra space removed or walled off for storage/utility space.
El platforms are easier to extend the below ground platforms. The lost space can be re-couped. Never say never.
Someday the zoneing laws will change in areas of Brooklyn and Queens. Single and two family areas will change. The population is growing. The transit and zoneing departments will follow behind. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but eventually! It would be nice to bask in an era of surplus trains and seats. The "F" and "V" for now is just such a condition, but time will fill this too as others discover it.
avid
Barry, thank you. That was quite a post. You do have inside information and it makes sense to me. But what of the Manny B? Any inside info on that. Frankly, even though I'm a native Queensian, I am more concerned with the Southern Division. And if you've been reading my posts you know why. At any rate, keep the info flowing. I'm even farther from the Big City than you are, and must depend on you guys for updates on what's going on.
Fred, Thank you for your nice words. I did that post to let my fellow contributors understand the inner workings of the system. A lot of their ideas are indeed good ones but will never happen becuase of the limits within the system
In regards to the Manhanttan Bridge. If the bridge can handle trains on both sides I believe the N will be returned to the Bridge at least during weekdays. Don't forget the problem with the Bridge is was not designed for subway operation. The engineers are going to be the ones to see if 4 track subway operation will not cause any additonal damage to the Bridge. Hopefully the rebuilding program will be successful. Only time will tell.
Thank You
Would it be possible---HYPOTHETICALLY---that these engineers would consider Subway operations on the Manny B as too stressful and damaging to the infrastructure? Would they recommend that, as a permanent fix, that subways should be "banned" from operating on the Manny B???
Don't flame me for my questions....I'm just curious....not that I'm WISHING that this'd happen...just the opposite.
Stuart, RLine86Man
It's possible. If that happens there would be alot of congestion. Bloomburg would probably have to shelf the #7 extention in favor for a 2nd Ave subway built quickly. I think if the engineers do suggest that the Manhattan Bridge banning subway traffic, it won't be made until 2003-2004.
Until the project that's in progress is completed, in part anyway...probably.
Stuart, RLine86Man
By 2003-2004 when the bridge is almost finished, we should know if it will take train srvice on BOTH sides again.
It's already handling subway service satisfactorily on the repaired side. That's not hard to measure. As long as that continues to hold up, the DOT will open the other side up when it's ready. Since the repair methods are identical on both sides, the issue will be resolved.
Of course this is possible, but for this to happen would mean that there is currently massive deception going on.
The city and TA claim that the south side has been properly fixed and stiffened and that now trains on the south side are no longer causing excessive swaying of the bridge.
If you are sufficiently cynical, of course you might consider the possibility that they are simply lying. But I think in that case some engineer who knew it to be a lie would be leaking to the newspapers.
I don't mean as part of a deception...I mean as part of something like they missed during their inspections or something.....an OVERSIGHT, not an conspiracy.
Stuart, RLine86Man
An oversight of that magnitude would be an amazing level of incompetence. Again, anything is possible, but it sure doesn't seem very likely to me. There are some very accurate instruments to measure the degree to which the bridge moves when a train goes over. Assuming honesty on the part of everyone involved, the numbers are registering way lower than they were in the 1980s.
Well.....that's good in any case...
Stuart, RLine86Man
Were that to be a real possibility, we would have heard it voiced in some way shape or form outside of Subtalk. We haven't.
The Manny B is not an ideal subway travel platform, but eliminating rail service on it is just harmless "twaddle" on Subtalk, and nothing more.
(Were that to be a real possibility, we would have heard it voiced in some way shape or form outside of Subtalk)
The MTA's East River Crossing Study included the possibility that the bridge might not be viable in the long run, or might be lost suddenly. It included a service plan for a total shutdown.
All of this is available here
The link doesn't work :-(
Arti
Works when I click it.
What was MTA's plan?
Arti
(What was MTA's plan?)
Eric B would no better than I, but as I recall it had one 4th Avenue and one Brighton service to Manhattan via the slow Montigue tunnel route. One Brighton service went to Franklin Ave (before the rebuild that cut its capacity), and other 4th Avenue services terminating at Pacific.
To try to get some people off the BMT, you'd have two services on the Culver all the way down. Presumably some would take a slow bus ride, others would walk the stairs at 9th Street To enable transfers at 9th and 4th, every Culver would be a local.
There was also something about trying to run more #3 trains, cars permitting, to handle some of the crush going over the IRT.
But, as Reuter himself told when he spoke at City Planning years ago, it wouldn't work -- until enough Brooklynites had become unemployed or moved to cut demand, potentially sending a big chunk of Brooklyn into a downward spiral. Hence the Rutgers-DeKalb recommendation.
Don't forget the problem with the Bridge is was not designed for subway operation
The bridge was intended soley for rail travel, subway & streetcar. It was designed improperly, though.
The bridge was intended soley for rail travel, subway & streetcar. It was designed improperly, though.
The bridge had lanes for cars from the day it opened. Walkways too.
It was intended soley for rail traffic. I never said it was operated that way.
What if they have to ban all operation on MB? What kind of service pattern would you use?
I'd abandon N. Make W use the tunnel and replace N in Queens. That leaves enough capacity to send Q express to 57/7. Q local could terminate at DeKalb. To compensate for loss of N V would run to Coney Island.
Arti
(What if they have to ban all operation on MB? What kind of service pattern would you use?)
It wouldn't matter. What would matter is that the whole capacity of the BMT southern division, minus the Culver, would be just 30 trains -- perhaps less due to crowding and dwell times. It would devastate the area economically, until it had declined enough that the demand for service equaled supply.
Hence the MTA's recommendation that a Rutgers-DeKalb connection be built just in case, to turn the situation from impossible to merely horrible. Should have been done. If, after $800 million, the Manhattan Bridge starts cracking again -- at any point in the next 80 years -- a bunch of engineers and politicians should have their bodies dug up and desecrated.
If the Manny B holds up for another 80 years, the repair job will have been more than adequate.
A Rutgers-DeKalb connection isn't a bad idea. That notwithstanding, methinks you whine too much. :0)
(If the Manny B holds up for another 80 years, the repair job will have been more than adequate. A Rutgers-DeKalb connection isn't a bad idea. That notwithstanding, methinks you whine too much.)
If the Manny B holds up for 80 years I won't complain, because I'll be dead. However some engineers think 20 years is more like it, before torsion creates more cracks and the shutdown and replacement cycle starts again.
(Disclaimer: This is only a fantasy. It has no chance of getting built, unless the Feds get REALLY generous, and all NIMBYS mraculously vanish.)
What is really needed is this: A massive, 8-car tunnel built under the East River, north of the Montague Street tunnel. All four tracks currently using the Manhattan Bridge would use this tunnel. Two tracks would turn up Water Street and link up with the Second Avenue Subway (I can hear the eyeballs rolling), and feed into the existing Grand Street Station. The other two tracks would feed into the lower Level of the BMT City Hall Station; the Canal Street Bridge Station would be abandoned permanently, and the tracks from lower City Hall would run straight through Canal on Broadway as expresses.
Two more of the new tunnel tracks would be linked up with a new extension of the IND Fulton Street Line east of the Court Street Station; once in Manhattan, these tracks would feed into the local track bellmouths of the 8th Avenue line near Chambers Street.
The last two tracks would be Long Island Railroad tracks coming out of Atlantic Avenue, and terminating at a new downtown terminal.
"It wouldn't matter. What would matter is that the whole capacity of the BMT southern division, minus the Culver, would be just 30 trains -- perhaps less due to crowding and dwell times. It would devastate the area economically, until it had declined enough that the demand for service equaled supply."
It sure would be a mess, but not that bad. I count roughly 130 tph on the 6 tracks that come into lower Manhattan from Brooklyn (everything south of the J/M/Z). If that were cut to 5 tracks and you increased capacity on each to the max, you'd still be OK. You'd have to increase tph in the A/C, F, N/R/M, and 2/3 tunnels, but there is capacity to do that.
You'd have a lot of really annoyed people needing to do an extra transfer to get into Manhattan, but you could carry all the people.
You cannot turn a n/b service at DeKalb because there is no place to turn! The best you could do is run 3 services thru the Montague tubes. One Q (suspend the express), the R, and the N or W. Which ever one you do not run, terminate at 36/4th. Suspend M service south of Chambers St.
Adding a crossover after DeKalb would allow turning trains around and can be done relatively quickly. Also terminating trains there would allow more transfer options to non BMT lines.
Arti
In total shutdowns, the West End always becomes the shuttle. It is for some reason the lower priority, as it becomes the shuttle now on weekends.
They might have to modify the Franklin shuttle to full capacity for the local (in the plans I've seen), or they could put in switches at the bridge approach to enable trains to terminate at DeKalb (an idea I came up with).
And yes, in the plans the V would run to Coney Island, but there wouldn't be any express on the Culver.
IMO W shouldn't become a shuttle as it serves more densely populated areas. I'd suspend N and extend V to lure passangers from Sea Beach to Culver where there's capacity.
Arti
Lengthen platforms on Franklin Av. shuttle and return second track and bridge to Park Place, thus perhaps capacity could be incrased to 30 tph. The S would function as Brighton local. Max. 30 tph could go through Dekalb. The N, Q, and W would go through there. R would be shuttle 95th to 36th. Q function as Brighton Express, operate to 57th/7th with all stops in Manhattan. N and W all stops all the way, the former to Astoria. Latter via Nassau to Chambers St.
All I can say is that I like this a lot better than Arti's plan, although there are some important parts missing.
>>>>What if they have to ban all operation on MB?<<<<
Unless if the whole bridge is about collapse. If it does happen, it will be a total disaster for the City and State of NY.
>>>>What kind of service pattern would you use?<<<<
B and D Train: Same as of 7/22/2001
E and F Train: Unchange
G Train: Operates [Local] between 71 Ave/Continental, Queens and Smith 9, Brooklyn @ All time.
Q Train: Operates [Local] between 71 Ave/Continental Queens and 34th Street, Manhattan. Then [Express] from 34th Street, Manhattan to Stillwell, Brooklyn (via tunnel) @ Rush Hours, Middays, and Evening Unitl 8:30 PM. @ Evening After 8:30 PM and Nights, Q Operate [Express] between 57th Street, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn (via tunnel) then local in Brooklyn between Dekalb Ave and Stillwell Ave
M Train: Operates between Metropolitan Ave Queens and Myrtle Ave, Broolyn, @ All time
N Train: Operates [Local] between Astoria, Queens and Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via tunnel) @ All time
R Train: Operates between Pacific St and 95 St Bay Ridge @ All time.
V Train: Operates [Local] between 179 St/Jamaica and Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via F 6th Ave) @ Rush Hours, Middays, and Evening.
W Train: Operates [Local] between Astoria, Queens and 34th Street Manhattan; [Express] in between 34th Street, Manhattan to 36th Ave Brooklyn on Rush Hours, Middays, and Evening. W Operates [Local] Between 36th Ave and Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn only @ Night and Weekends
Z Train: Include Middays Hours to its usual operation schedules.
Forgot to mention that W run via tunnel. And to bring B back to west end brooklyn, C must return to the Bronx to replace B to Bedford Blvd during Rush Hours.
Arti: Abandon the N, eh? Well you can guess how that would go over with me. I find that idea to be patenty ridiculous and very personally offensive to me. But since we get along Arti, I have to allow you to state your ideas and swallow it. A better idea would be to shitcan one of the two Q's, and the V. The latter is a new train that has no tradition and less of a reputation, and we could get along quite nicely with only one Brighton. You really got my Italian up with your suggestion but I will just shake it off. Have a nice Sea Beach day.
Heh, I guessed that will come :-)
My suggestion was IMHO from a practical standpoint.
Arti
There has ALWAYS BEEN 2 trains on the Brighton Line either it be the 1 Exp and Local, The QB, QT, QJ, M D or whatever. The Brighton is the busiest line on the Southern Division, because South of Ave H there is no competing line East of it, The Sea Beach has the We4st End and Culver on either side of it on 3/4 of its run
There's a 2/5 line on the other side. So I assume that is competition.
N Bwy
But not south of Av. H
The Culver Line is only 15 blocks from the Brighton Line in most of Brooklyn formust of its run
Thank You
Firstly, I'm not from NYC. Secondly, I'm from Toronto (about 14 hours drive from Manhattan, NYC). Last but not least, I'm an NYC railfan.
Hey Phil, you don't have to be from New York City to be a railfan. The one thing that brings us all together is our love for the NYC Subway. Finding this website was a revelation to me and has allowed me to go back into my past and remember some of the most joyous experiences of my early life. What a rush.
I know I don't. I mean I like the New York subway, it's because it has a very rich history and their stations really turn me on in the unique designs in each line, except for IND which basically uses the same design, except for different colors and some of the newer stations that don't use any of the older designs at all.
How can you really be so sure about it, besides you're forgetting, that the Queens Blvd line is probably overcrowded sooner or later, like the Lexington is right now.
You never know what could happen, it's just that the inconvenience of interchanging at 71/Continental for the (R) from Jamaica & 179 (F) or Parsons & Archer (E) just to reach the Broadway. Besides, one day that area could be as overcrowded as the Lexington Av. lines are right now.
What about this?
B - Same as before 7/22 via West End Local
D - Same as before 7/22
Y (Old 6 Avenue Q) - Between 179 Street, Jamaica and Brighton Beach
Express (Operates during Weekdays, 6AM - 8PM)
Q - 57 Street/7 Avenue, Manhattab - Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
Express (Operates except late nights) via Broadway/Brighton Exp
T - Between Queensborough Plaza & Bay Parkway via West End/Broadway Exp (Old W) Would operate during Weekdays (Peak direction express service only during the Rush Hour)
N - Same. Except B'way Express along the Manhattan Bridge during the weekday. Evenings & Weekends, B'way Express via Tunnel. Late Nights, All local stops via Tunnel
R - Same. Except late night service runs only to 57/7
W - Between 57 Street/7 Avenue, Manhattan & Coney Island via Tunnel/Broadway/Brighton Local (A la, QT) Weekdays only. Evening & Weekend service would go only to Whitehall Street.
M - To 95 Street, Rush Hours. To Ninth Avenue, Middays.
Anything excessive?
Just my 2 insignificant cents, lol.
Four services on the Brighton? Nice but that wouldn't fit between Prospect Park and DeKalb. I would have liked to see them extend the shuttle to Coney Island, and then have one local cross over, and two expresses, but no the shuttle line would have to be modified.
Your "Y" would simply be the V. Something like that might happen if the South side of the Bridge had to close again.
CSX is planning several capitol improvements. One of the biggest is to add two additional mainline tracks between between St. Denis and West Baltimore, Maryland. They all also build an electrified connection between Camden Station and Carroll, MD, where the electrified tracks would join the former PRR Wilhelm Branch that would then connect to the NEC. The budget for 02-03 plans to install a 3rd mainline track b/t MP33 and MP37 on the Capitol Line and an additional track between the old F and QN tower sites on the Metropolitan Line. These project will probably mean the demise of several B&O CPL signals which is why I am hoping they are cut.
Ok. I give up. Why on earth would CSX want to string up wire?
this will allow running MARC electrics to Camden. This entire set of upgrades will e mostly paid for by state of MD (and perhaps FTA) as a buy in for greater density of train sdervice. CSX has done a great job 'conning' money out of the public coffers for necessary iprovements.
Clever bastards! If only Amtrak could be so cunning...
"CSX has done a great job 'conning' money out of the public coffers for necessary iprovements."
The rail system in this country will never recover any significant market from trucks (freight) or autos (passenger) so long as public expenditure on rail capital improvements to lines owned by the freight railways is perceived by a significant number of citizens to be a con job or corporate welfare.
Government pays for the construction and maintenance of roads for the passage of (privately-owned for-profit) trucks and autos. If a state -- or the federal government, if it ever occurs to them -- decides that some of the money it spends on highways would move more freight or people if invested in rail capital improvements, that IMHO is a legitimate, indeed reasonable, decision.
More than one state -- Washington, North Carolina, and Virginia come to mind -- has decided to make rail capital improvements with the primary goal of speeding FREIGHT trains, in order to divert freight traffic from congested parallel highways which the state realizes it cannot simply keep adding lanes to ad infinitum.
John, I tried sending directly to no avail.
Sir, I am taking this off board as
this is a longer response. First a
disclosure. As a lifelong B&O fan, I
am a stockholder of CSX and also a
life member of the B&O RR Hist Soc.
I have watched these 'brilliant'
managers fail to maintain the
tracks(FRA spring 2000--if you need
the
actual citation I have it) fail to
get the trains over the road--chats
with consignees at online plants (we
never know when they will bring us
a train), and constantly whine about
the lack of capacity for passenger
trains. Concurrently they solicit
freight business (as if the mythical
track capacity problem vanishes when
the passengers are replaced with
freight?). A casual scan of
predecessor RR TT's will show many
passenger trains operated in an era
before train radio's, before bi
directional CTC etc. In turn a visit
to trackside to watch trains often
reveals hours between actual trains.
(Five trains total in over five
hours at Poit of Rocks on a random
day in Nov 1999 -- this is a junction
of lines west of DC--you might have
noticed the gorgeous station
building in the vortex of the
diverging lines when you rode the
Capitol
Ltd).
To top all of this off, John Snow,
the CEO, had the temerity to be a
signatory in the newspaper ads
supporting Gingrich in the gov't
shutdown
budget fights. While I maintain his
right as a citizen, to speak out,
his anti welfare anti gov't POV is
digusting while shilling for the same
monies.
Thank you for your time and attention
David Vartanoff
OK, JM, where did this come from? Maryland is on record as no state $$ to CSX. Virginia has surrendered to CSX and will be spending $M to triple track miles of track used by VRE, so CSX freights won't be held up by VRE trains.
CSX has been trying to get Maryland to foot the cost of lowering the Howard Street Tunnel and every overhead bridge from the Maryland/DC line to the Maryland/Delaware line so they can run double stacks. Maryland has refused and will continue to refuse.
This came from the CSX 2002/3 Capital Improvement budget as released by the company.
Maybe he got it from the same place that said Atlanta commuter rail was axed :-)
NCDoT is buying a short, abandonned CSX (nee-ACL) below grade seperated line through the heart of Wilmington, NC. The line will be used for future train service and a new transporation centre. Currently the RoW is trash strewn and full of Kudzu, but NCDoT is planning a cleanup as well. Sale price was 100,000 for the 5 block line.
Anyone catch BBC news? Roumanian smugglers had found a new way entering illegal emmigrants from France to England through the 'Chunnel' freights: hang up the signals to a red 25 miles or so outside of the tunnel and no one knew better about the 'hangers on.' CI Peter
What was so special about trying to go from France to England via the Chunnel, besides going from a country with Napoleonic law to one with a consitutional monarchy?
After the US and Canada, they prefer the UK, with Oz and Kiwiland trailing behind. Why? Because we're rich, we're considerate, we have laws that protect even illegal immigrants, even scumbag illegals.
The English-speaking nations really are the best places in the world. We are the best. We need to remember this, as we flail ourselves for our wicked materialistic ways, bleeding over the conditions we are keeping those terrorist fiends at Gitmo, loudly wailing how depraved we are on CNN (and the whole world watches CNN off of the satellite, and is bedazzled by us).
Our humanitarianism is our greatest strength and our greatest weakness. Tough love means we gotta go there and kick butt if we are to keep them from all coming here.
Can any one say jingoism?????????????
The background to this is that the Red Cross has built a camp for refugees in France -- which is fine -- but has put it right by the French portal of the Chunnel -- which is not fine, as nightly large numbers try to break through the perimeter fence and jump trains. [The tunnel carries conventional passenger trains, conventional freight trains, car-carrying trains, and truck-carrying trains, so there is a variety to choose from.] This has become a major illegal immigration problem for the UK, and has necessitated a large expenditure on extra security precautions by Eurotunnel, which is a loss-making company anyway. The group of Romanians were thought to be ex-railway employees who hence had the technical expertise to tamper with signals. By stopping the trains well before Calais to board them they were attempting to avoid the security precautions at the portal.
As to why people try to get into the UK when they are already inside the EU -- given that Britain is not by any means the richest country in the EU -- the most likely expalanation is the English language (which is one reason why US, Canada, Oz and NZ are also popular). Our language has conquered the world -- how many third-world citizens learn French or German as their main foreign language nowadays? It's easier to get by as an illegal if you already speak the local language at least a bit.
The article is on A1 and A13 of today's times; it's very long so I'll just sum it up. What happened was that with the increased vehicular traffic into the Grand Canyon Park ove the last couple of years it's becoming increasingly like the parking lots at Bay Plaza during the Christmas season DOUBLED. A gentleman by the name of Bruce Babbit came up with the idea of moving the parking lots to the outside and constructing a light rail line from the lots to a new $16 million visitor's center. That would have been part of the $200 million project for the rail line itself. Mr. Babbit had a receptive audience to the idea in the persons of fmr. President Clinton and the then-Secrtary of the Interior. Thus the project moved ahead quickly, with the SOTI insisting that the visitor's center be completed first. Then came the change of administrations, with pro-oil Norton as SOTI and the GOP maintaining control of both congressional chambers and Bush in the White House. Now the project has halted like the Second Avenue subway, with three culprits behind the halt: Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ), Rep. John Shadegg (R-AZ) and Rep. Ralph Regula (R-OH). Their reasons behind derailing the project:
1. It would force people to leave their cars outside the park and travel by train, raising inconvenience for tourists (never mind the bad parking lot congestion, BTW),
2. The line would make it more expensive for families to get to the Canyon (to park, $20; to park and ride, $11 projected), and
3. There's currently not enough traffic to justify the expense of building the line (people are currently not flocking to the park b/c of the traffic during the summer and fall months).
In December of 2000, the project-in-progress was sucessfully derailed and the Park Service was ordered to come up with possible alternatives, including a possible Vince Lombardi car-park-bus style arraingement. The Park Service did just that, with the hand-in of the report with 5 alternatives on July 2. There has been little to no response from the Office of Management and Budget since (oh, and the Times did not mention 9/11 as a possible reason for the delay).
What do you think?
Reason #3 makes it look like Kyl, Regula and Shadegg are contradicting themselves. If the Grand Canyon has too much traffic during the summer months, then a lot of people are flocking there and something has to be done about the traffic problems. But $200 million for a light rail line? How long would it have been? Would it have been electrified? A light rail line to the Grand Canyon? Maybe some sort of steam train or a diesel-powered railcar service might be better or even a bus. Electric light rail is better for commuters and tourists in cities.
Of course the line would have been electrified. The reason the cost would be so high would be the cost of constructing the station(s) along the line, the line itself, the railcars that need to be purchased, and doing all this while not ruining national park property. Steam or diesel power may not be justified given the expense of fueling vis-a-vis capacity. A bus may be viable, but given the amount of people going to the canyon, there may need to be several buses purchased and run on transit-like schedules.
The AZ Senators are also fighting federal funds for the Phoenix Light Rail Project!
i like it !!
I personally think the car should replace the automobile as the GOP mascot; preferably the Plymoth Galaxy.
Having visited the Grand Canyon, I am personally saddened that such a beneficial project would be killed. You know, its not like we can put the environment back once its ruined. Representatives Kill (R-AZ), Skulldug (R-AZ), and Regulon (R-OH) are just marching in goose-step with the over-interpreted principle of individual freedom. And what better expression of personal freedom is there than the automobile.
Cars have no place in many of our national parks, but I can't fathom why some of our leaders don't get this. You don't bring a car into Disney World and everyone gets along fine with the monorail.
MATT-2AV
Matt - good point - but the car - it's called a FORD Galaxy. Plymouth never made a Galaxy.
You're absolutely right! I had to look it up on the web. Now I think I've gotten myself confused about the car. What was the largest sedan ever made? I thought it was the Galaxy (or Galaxie?).
MATT-2AV
The logical equivalent of the Ford Galaxie today is the Ford Crown Victoria. But it's hardly the largest sedan ever made - although it may seem like it to those of you too young to remember the real big cars. The big Lincoln Continental (1961-1969), Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special (1950's through 1976), the postwar Packards, and the '60s version of the Imperial (Chrysler's super-luxury model) were all significantly larger. And there are probably others that are bigger still, although none that were sold widely in this country.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mr. Babbit had a receptive audience to the idea in the persons of fmr. President Clinton and the then-Secrtary of the Interior.
Bruce Babbitt WAS the Secretary of the Interior.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just heard on Fox 5 News at 10 that NJ Transit has had trouble collecting fares on their trains because they have been so crowded that conductors can't get through all the cars between stops. They said that they will be adding more conductors to trains and adding "six more trains." They didn't say when, or where these trains will be. They also mentioned that a fare increase is scheduled for April. Would that be a form of price gouging since the PATH is out of service downtown, and NJT is the only "equal" alternative?
JR
Three words: Proof of Payment.
During my trip to Babylon I overheard an NJT conductor saying that for the first 5 weeks after the fare hike they will have cops on every train. The C/R was talking w/ a group of regular riders. He mentioned the propensity of people to try to beat the fare using such techniques as hiding in the bathroom and using destination tags they had collected. This C/R always made a point to specially mark his seat tags. He said he had just found a guy with more different seat tags than the C/R's were issued.
He also mentioned the 5:20 local out of Penn Station and how crowded it was. he said that NJT crews refer to the train as "The Titanic".
HISTORY CHANNEL
7PM THURS JAN 31
"THE NYC SUBWAY"
(With it's riders, it's workers
and it's street performers, the
Subway of NYC is a microcosmo
of urban life... 60 mins)
Got me interested... tho it sounds
all too eerily similar to my
1st place college documentary...
So watch it. then do yours better!
avid
Thanks Avid... given that shorter tends to be
sweeter, mine probably IS better...
just a matter of it reaching the hands of broadcast..
Think this is a new one. Probably will have the same shots of the opening of the IRT, but am hoping for some new stuff.
Thanks for the advance notice !
Mr rt__:^_
Does anyone here have any information on this rail line? Past service? Present condition?
- Lyle Goldman
http://www.pennjerseyrail.org/
http://www.njtransit.com/an_capitalprojects_project019.shtm
http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/GSMRRClub/history5.html
Also do a search on the internet for "Lackawanna Cutoff"
Interesting take on The sounds of AC traction.
Peace,
ANDEE
IT'S A CONSPIRACY MAN! Dem pesky Canucks are going to break into your hockey trophy stand and steal yer wimmens! Heh. The strange melodies are anything but a conspiracy - it's just the way AC traction works ... the "propulsion system" turns the motors first in alternating current ("frequency") with large in-phase current ... as the motors begin to overcome inertia, the PHASE changes, the frequency drops, and so begins the frequency climb in the new phase angle, over and over again until the motors aren't drawing anywhere near as much current.
AC traction is efficient as all getout (MUCH more than the absent "regenerative let's make the power meters spin backwards" crap) and it achieves its efficiency by varying the frequency and phase of the AC current supplied to the motors. In the OLD days, all motors were DC and subject to INSANE current loads as they started to struggle to move the train. The power savings in the new motors is extreme compared to the old AC motors ... Tesla WAS right!
But no, ain't no conspiracy ... the melodies are merely the price of energy efficiency ... just like how those compact flourescents make your computer screen in anything but 640x480 mode flicker like a seabeach unless you relent and go back to incandescents. Whoops. :)
It's too bad Tesla wasn't right about free electricity for everyone in the future using magnetic fields. It's all that damn Edsion's fault, that bastard. At least Tesla has a unit of measurement named after him, unlike Edison.
Heh. OK ... I get it ... GE pulled the plug on Schenectady, North Adams, MA and Fort Edward NY leaving behind a mightily polluted Hudson River (which NYC is now about to draw municipal water from) and moved to Atlanta ... displace loyalty/ GE has already screwed Atlanta as well in teh water works ...
Uh yeah ... AC physics is a LOT more complex, and Edison was a "simp" as far as his serrated commutator mentality went, but Tesla kicks the boy's butt. :)
You don't need to tell me how complex that kind of physics is, I got my ass kicked doing all the integrals and other equations when I took physics. I don't even WANT to know about the harder stuff.
And I LOVE the AC whine the new trains make. It doesn't get any better than that when riding the train.
Heh ... as someone who's spent a good part of their life calculating cosines and getting an earache, I can sympathize ... My own "revelations" about AC traction in a PRACTICAL SENSE came as the result of a 1660 foot train being yanked uphill by an SD-80MAC locomotive (GM EMD) ... a gnarly 2-1/2 mile per hour climb that would have SMOKED an SD-40 barely warmed the cabinet in an AC traction locomotive. A DC locomotive would have caught fire ... not the SD-80MAC. It's all in the brushes and the ammeters ... AC WORKS!
Now repeat after me ... PI/FC ... moo. :)
Edison was only a tinkerer compared to Telsa! He (Edison) really missed the boat, big time, on AC.
The amazing thing is that both characters eventually ended up bankrupt!
Didn't Ediston try his hand at electric traction with a little line in Menlo Park that operated like a model train where one running rail was + and the other was GND.? If that's true, I'd like to see how the trucks and axles were designed so as not to short circuit the darn thing - and this would have been in the days before plastics too.
-Robert King
I think the main reason Telsa went bankrupt was; the insane jealosy, and its consequences, from his peers (who later stole much of his work & ideas) that plagued him throughout his entire career. Edison went bankrupt, I guess, because of the usual reasons one goes that route, (mis-management) plus intellectual atrophy (i.e. he ran out of ideas).
It was similar with Reginald Fessenden who a) was too generous and b) let everybody get away with ripping off his patents until he sued RCA and got a four million dollar handout which, in the middle of the 1930s was a big sum of money...
-Robert King
Good for him!! I'm not familiar with that case, but it's nice to know that someone with his insight was able to recover.
Reg Fessenden was the person who developed AM radio as we now know it. He was responsible for taking radio a la dot dash, click sounds and making it possible to broadcast voice, music etc. over the air.
-Robert King
When I was a kid ham radio operator, I can't remember my tech books and manuals giving him enough credit for developing this form of mudulation. Marconi, on the other hand, was given plenty of credit for his part in electromagetic propagation, and its uses, for communication (too much perhaps when considering Telsa's contributions).
Something is missing: modulated Alexanderson alternators. CI Peter, adult ham radio operator and mudulator.
I forgot to mention; "mudulation" is what you get when you drop a little CW rig into the tomato patch, after a heavy storm. ;^)
Mudulation is what you get when that dipole you just strung up over the beanpatch on three foot stakes fell down with your 'Uncle Steves Sixteen 1625 toob gallon.' CI Peter, Double U Bee Two Subway General Technician. EXTRA CLASS
Tesla ROCKED Colorado...experiments not ever duplicated, not even by the Air Force. Pesonally, I like wireless lighbulbs. I never have a problem making a blown fluorescent glow. CI Peter
For some reason Telsa never got as much play as Volta, Henry, Ohm, Faraday, Marconi, Fermi, Medeleev, Edison, Curie and other 18th & 19th century scientific and engineering pioneers who've made almost everything we talk about here possible. The man was metaphysical.
Tesla was a fruitloop from Venus and suckered to accept 50 Gs from Westinghouse for the secrets of Venusian Three Phase Power Distribution. Uh oh...the black helicopters are circling overhead again. My fluorescents are lighting up too without wires. Where is Art Bell when you need him? Is he on my R142s?? CI Peter
By the accounts I've read, some of those experiments were really wild. Incidentally, a small handheld tesla coil powered off four nine volt batteries and a defunct fluorescent tube are excellent at the cottage after dark:
Interesting trick oh-neat type trick.
Useful as a flashlight.
Uh, the, uh, the 'floating alien light sabre deathray thing that's coming to get us' trick arranged for the benefit of the drunk people at the next cottage who were playing obonoxious country music far too loud at 3 in the morning.
-Robert King
I like holding up old tubes in RF fields to make them light. There is an RF lightbulb and it is self excited with a 25 watt source in its base which caused concern to ham operators about interference. Teslas original bulbs were operated by the field in close proximity...his dream of tapping into the earths energy field and transmitting power worldwide was probably squashed by 'the seven sisters.' CI Peter
Shhh... Also, the screens in the cab are designed so that they receive covert broadcasts from the CBC, forcing train drivers to watch "Hockey Night In Canada" and "The National" and "Royal Canadian Air Farce" and make them go insane! I won't mention how the automatic PA systems were designed to play French language lessons...!
-Robert King
I was flipping through the channels on the R143 (right screen) and watched a few minutes of (is it "22 minutes?") where they were asking Uhmericans what they thought of the igloo shortages in Toronto. :)
Like I said, it's all a maple leaf conspiracy, man ...
That sounds more like "Talking to Americans". The reason why there's an igloo shortage is because of the acute snow shortage - we haven't got any! Just watch it... Between those digital signs inside that can display song lyrics with the little bouncy ball and the automatic PA system... Can you say rush hour Anne Murray sing-a-long for the geese?
Wasn't sure, you're right now that you mention it. 22 Minutes was where it ORIGINATED before being spun off on its own. I've got a buddy in Calgary that makes certain that I have every one of those. Anne Murray! Arrrgh! I'm suicidal already! :)
I think This Hour has 22 Minutes and Talking to Americans both have the same host if I remember correctly. Those comedy shows (Talking To Americans, 22 Minutes, Royal Canadian Air Farce etc.) really get away with mocking the government and the CBC - the government funded national television network that produces and airs these shows - to such a degree it's unbelievable and so much fun to watch too! As for Anne Murry, I had a kiddie music record of hers which wasn't very good. But then no kiddie music is.
-Robert King
If only folks in the lower 48 could see a few of those. Heh. I'm lucky where I am - I can get it off the old rooftop or off the birdbath. And as to Anne Murray, Canada should do the right thing and put her out of her misery. :)
Hell, yeah...........she's already made us suffer WAYY too much.......AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I remember her earlier music (the only stuff I'm familiar with) fondly and wish it would get more airplay. Somewhere in the archives I've got a couple of her albums, including her first.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think This Hour has 22 Minutes and Talking to Americans both have the same host if I remember correctly. Those comedy shows (Talking To Americans, 22 Minutes, Royal Canadian Air Farce etc.) really get away with mocking the government and the CBC - the government funded national television network that produces and airs these shows - to such a degree it's unbelievable and so much fun to watch too! As for Anne Murry, I had a kiddie music record of hers which wasn't very good. But then no kiddie music is.
-Robert King
So the R142s play Leonard Bernstein. This isn't the first time that an 'odd coincidence' like that has happened - the newer subway trains in Montreal play the first three notes of "Fanfare For The Common Man" when they start up.
-Robert King
Now here's a question... is that really just a coincidence on the Montreal Metro that it plays that tune when starting up? I always thought they did it deliberately... it doesn't sound like a noise an engine, AC or otherwise, would make. The Metro doesn't use AC traction, does it?
Incidentally, there is one set of Vickers cars on the green line that make that same tune, yet other than that, the engine sounds the same as all the other non-musical Vickers cars. If this is just an odd coincidence that the trains make that tune, what did they do to modify that one Vickers set so that it does it too?
The Metro does not use AC equipment, the newer cars have direct current thyristor 'chopper' control equipment. These are my personal thoughts on the subject in the absence of concrete facts but I'd have to say the three notes are deliberate. I think it's just too coincidential to be an accident.
If it was done deliberately, chances are the electrical engineer(s) designing the control equipment realised that they could set the frequencies that the thyristor had to operate at for each step of acceleration to the notes of the 'Fanfare For The Common Man', sneaking in a cute little trick, while being well within the operating specifications of the equipment they had to work with and the performance requirements of the subway cars.
The Vickers cars that play the three notes obviously have been outfitted with the same thyristor control equipment used on the newer subway cars. The most probable explanation for this would be that the Vickers cars in question had their original equipment removed and the new equipment installed originally on an experimental basis to test it prior to the STCUM's order of new cars and it's never been removed since. If the experimental equipment had differed any from what was actually used in the newer cars, the STCUM likely would have taken out the oddball set of equipment and reinstated what was originally there but I guess there weren't any differences between the test and production equipment.
These Vickers cars would be like the six H2 cars the TTC removed the PCM equipment from and substituted the Hitachi thyristor control equipment on for testing purposes while the H5 specifications were being drawn up. The H2s with the chopper control (which were reclassified H3 for identification purposes) ran around for several years with the Hitachi thyristor control equipment before being removed and the original stuff was put back and the cars were reclassified as H2s again. During those years, the small order of H4s was built which is why the H3 classification of TTC subway cars sat empty ever since...
-Robert King
...HOOOLd my hand and we're 1/2 way there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Are there any sound bytes of the R142's AC engines on a website somewhere? I got to ride a Kawasaki R142A when I was in NYC in December, but I didn't see nor hear Bombardier's version, so I would like to hear the difference between the two.
I knew it! I posted, about a month ago that it sounded something like 'somewherrreee oovvvvvveeeeerrrrr" (on the Bombadiers).
My trains have their own song that I cannot miss even driving below the El. CI Peter
Which El is that?
#2 White Plains Road south of Gun Hill Road.
NY Times readers sound off (yuk, yuk) about music-emitting subway cars: Letters to the Editor
-- David
Chicago, IL
Saw a 4 car train of R143 out of service Manhattan bound at Queens Plaza Yesterday (too shocked to get car numbers as this was the first I've seen of the 143) at 4:10pm on the express track. Three orange vests in the cab, two in the first car an one in the motorman's seat on the back end.
They are bright and quite.
It was probably 8116-5-4-3. I saw that one yesterday.
I heard on the train radio at one point Tuesday that the R143 test train was doing a run on the Franklin shuttle. Perhaps the personel were school car TSS, but this is pure speculation on my part. One line TSS told me today that 16 R143 cars are currently on the property. It is unknown when one consist will be back in service on the L. The other consist will be used as a school car for training purposes.
Why the hell would we want to increase the population of Wilkes-Barre and Scranton?
Why ... would we want to increase the population of Wilkes-Barre and Scranton?
Oh, their mayors or elected officials might like the notion of higher property tax revenues, perhaps? And since LOTS of people now commute from Pennsylvania to NYC on a growing system of buses, rail takes a little of the pressure for road expansion away.
Yes, less roads, more rails.
An increase in the population in those areas would spur economic growth much in the same way as when the first ral line set foot into certain areas. Besides, have this rail is just a RETURN of what once was. So many young families can't afford the high cost of living in the NYC metro area that buying a house with lots of land under $125,000 is worth the headache of traveling 2+ hours to work each day. With a return of passenger rail service, life would be easier not only for daily commuters, but also for families seeking an alternative to driving to the Pocono area for vacation time.
Celebrate with me!
I just moved this weekend, and my new home is only a block from a SEPTA greenline trolley route. I can now ride my entire workday commute on rails!
O, the joy.
Mark
dont overdo it !!
enjoy !!
lol!!
Now that you live there you can call 'em as the locals do (without the color names) :-)
I did that for the benefit of the non-Philadelphians out there. Most of the time I just say "the trolley" or maybe 10, 11, 13, 34, or 36 if I need to be specific. :)
Mark
I always find it interesting that non-locals always call the subway-surface the Green Line even though there are 5 separate lines. I once was waiting for a car at 15th St in a crowd (there was a problem somewhere on the line) and a young college-student type approached me asking how often the Green Line operated. I explained that the cars run quite frequently and noted that there must have been some sort of problem. He added that there must have been, since he had been there for over a half-hour - no cars had come through for about 10 minutes, but before that a number of cars came and went. I asked why he didn't take any of them, and he replied (some of you know this is coming), 'There was a 13, a 34, a 10, and some other numbers, but no Green Line.'
I can now ride my entire workday commute on rails!
I did that from 1972 to 1972 when I lived in Collingswood and walked 3 blocks to the Collingswood PATCO station, took PATCO to 8th & Market, the Market Street subway/elevated to 69th Street (yes, the photo's from Milbourne)and the P&W to Radnor.
Unfortunately for me my 'green line jinx' continues. This started last spring. I find myself on the subway-surface every so often on short hops between my office and U of P. This always worked fine until one trip when I walked down to the platform at 33rd and found a handful of operators, supervisors, etc attempting to hook two cars together (to push a disabled car into Center City and then back out to Elmwood). The disabled car had, for some reason, stopped close to the south end of the station, and this is coming out of a curve, so the follower had an especially hard time trying to couple up.
This took so long that the supervisors decided to allow the 'train' to remain in service (usually they are removed and run light) and I got to ride in the lead (pushed) car. After that, it seemed that every time I made this trip the s-s was screwed up in one direction or the other (or, on one occasion, both!) of my trip. I even started resorting to the El and a nice walk from 30th or 34th.
I had to take the trip this AM, this time to the former Pharmacy College on Woodland Ave. A 10- to 15-minute trip took 45 minutes due to some mishap at 33rd which had the entire line backed up at about 8:45. On the inbound the operator of my trip noted that he had heard something on a medical emergency. For some reason (maybe totally unrelated) the westbound 33rd platform was being scrubbed down as we passed. I didn't hear much else about this.
One slightly disturbing aspect of this was the amount of profanity on the radio during the delay. Our operator left the car to assist the situation but left the radio on and it blared a lot of R-rated stuff. I was a bit surprised to hear that kind of language on an official channel, especially one that could easily be heard on the car.
Just a word to the wise - if you ride the line and see a debonair (?) 6' guy with glasses and graying hair, think twice before continuing your trip! The 'jinx' may be at work!
If Amtrak does bite the bullet and is privatized, who do you think will step up to the plate and run trains on the NEC or south of Washington DC? I can't possibly see boarding a train from Penn Station marked "Trump Train" or a "Bloomberg Express."
Possible scenario...NJ Transit takes over the NEC...(since they have new equipment coming)
Thoughts?
Pre-9/11 (and maybe still), I'd have predicted that one of the major airlines might take over operation of the NEC, with a federal agency responsible for the infrastructure -- not too different from what happens now with airlines maintaining their own planes and the FAA controlling the skies.
Logical candidates would be Continental (EWR hub), Southwest (BWI and Providence -- gets their passengers into the big cities, plus they have the financials to make such a thing work) and maybe American (currently shut out on the Boston-NYC-Washington corridor).
CG
How about Greyhound and Trailways?
"How about Greyhound and Trailways?"
They don't really have the need for such a deal, nor the cash.
CG
"I can't possibly see boarding a train from Penn Station marked 'Trump Train' or a 'Bloomberg Express.'"
Semi-serious answer: Virgin Trains. Ignoring the obvioius off-color jokes, the company already operates trains for Britain's privatized* passenger rail system.
IF (note the IF) a privatized Amtrak involved contracts with the government that would guarantee operators a modest profit, AND the government made a serious capital committment to the system (IOW, a multiple of the present measly half-billion and change annually), privatization could work. Commuter rail works on that basis in more than one city in this country. But if the government expected private companies to operate passenger trains on a franchise or license basis, with little if any financial support from the Treasury, no way in fiery Hades would any operators step to the plate.
*The Brits still put more taxpayer capital into their "private" rail system in a year than the Federal Government has put into Amtrak since its inception in 1971.
"Semi-serious answer: Virgin Trains. Ignoring the obvioius off-color jokes, the company already operates trains for Britain's privatized* passenger rail system."
Please God, no! Virgin is a laughing-stock in the UK -- by a clear margin it is the worst of all the privatized train operators. Richard Branson runs an airline that provides good services at moderate fares, and a railway that provides unreliable services at high fares. If you'd like a British operator, try National Express (which started off life as the UK equivalent of Greyhound buses). They own Midland Mainline, on which I commute 60 miles daily and which is probably the most reliable of the longer-distance operators, Scotrail, which provides a pretty decent standard of service to all of Scotland, and a couple of other franchises.
"*The Brits still put more taxpayer capital into their "private" rail system in a year than the Federal Government has put into Amtrak since its inception in 1971."
Very true, and many of us feel that since we put so much money into it, we should still own it. Amazing though it may sound to Americans, there is a good deal of public support for renationalization of the railways in the UK. Won't happen, though; our media content themselves with rubbishing the Secretary of State for Transport, forgetting that under provatization he doesn't run the system anyway!
Amazing though it may sound to Americans, there is a good deal of public support for renationalization of the railways in the UK. Won't happen, though; our media content themselves with rubbishing the Secretary of State for Transport, forgetting that under provatization he doesn't run the system anyway!
Is it true that Bob Kiley resigned in frustration at Blair's plan to privatize the Underground? That (the privatization idea) I find mind-boggling, though the national rail stuff sorta makes more sense as a concept to me.
He hasn't resigned (yet). But along with his boss Mayor Ken Livingstone, and a strong majority of the population of London, he continues to oppose the privatization. Meanwhile he is negotiating with the government to try to find ways of limiting its damaging effects if it happens.
(IF (note the IF) a privatized Amtrak involved contracts with the government that would guarantee operators a modest profit, AND the government made a serious capital committment to the system (IOW, a multiple of the present measly half-billion and change annually), privatization could work.)
I see the following as a fair scenario.
1) The federal and state governments maintain and improve the rights of way, just as they do the roads.
2) Local governments own and operate the stations, keeping station-related revenues (store rents).
3) Private operators purchase, maintain, and operate the trains, keeping all fares. Preferably three or more operators on a busy route like the NE corridor.
Without the cost of the ROW, and federal featherbedding, the NE corridor (and perhaps some others) would be profitable now on an operating basis. Private operators would probably improve service as well as being able to buy new trains -- especially if competition required it.
Airlines are a good potential source of rail operators, especially if air/rail links allow integration with the air system. Aside from the ROW, which the government would take care of, the two businesses are similar: capital intensive with long-lived, highly maintained equipment, well-paid highly-skilled crew, union issues, passenger marketing and pricing, etc.
In my opinion, the air-rail links to intergrate the two modes should be a priority. I can see the airlines, rather than operating passenger rail service directly, could license their name out to a partner, the way big airlines licenes their name to commuter airlines today. Whatever the details, it would be really cool to fly into Atlanta and then hop a train with a big Delta logo on it right at Hartsfield to take me the rest of the way to see the relations in Mississippi.
Mark
"Without the cost of the ROW, and federal featherbedding, the NE corridor (and perhaps some others) would be profitable now on an operating basis."
Whoever operates a passenger service profitably, even if only on an operating basis, would likely be the first such operator since the middle of the 20th Century, if not earlier! All the successful and well-used European rail systems involve operating subsidies in the hundreds of millions if not billions per country. Even here in the U.S., where free enterprise is almost deified, the (now) freight railroads operated passenger trains at a loss probably from the advent of the automobile and decent highways in the 1920s. Why?
(1) The government made them do it, since termination of passenger service required (still requires, for Amtrak) ICC (now STB) approval.
(2) The government financed much of the loss with the operation of the Railway Post Offices, which gave the passenger trains another stable source of income.
(3) To the extent businesspeople were still riding trains in significant numbers, the passenger trains were a reflection on the railway as a whole. Good passenger service was essentially an advertisement for the money-making freight service.
When, in the mid-1960s, the end of Railway Mail ended (2) and the jet age ended (3), it followed rather quickly that the railroads started seeking permission to terminate passenger routes left, right, and center. Amtrak was created to stanch the bloodflow before there were no more intercity passenger trains left.
(When, in the mid-1960s, the end of Railway Mail ended (2) and the jet age ended (3), it followed rather quickly that the railroads started seeking permission to terminate passenger routes left, right, and center. Amtrak was created to stanch the bloodflow before there were no more intercity passenger trains left. )
The railroads were mismanaged and over-regulated. And their ROWs were taxes, while the government was building tax free roads with tax dollars.
Let the government provide the ROW, end the inefficiency, and I'm sure that rail service can make money in medium haul markets.
Not a chance. And besides lame as Amtrak is, you want our friends at the airlines to do the overbooking/who will wait for the next train? dance. No way! As to the profit fantasy, run the numbers again. If the NEC were carved up, the trains would all be scheduled for the six most likely times and the rest would dissappear. We would have the fraud of six trains all claimng to leave at six PM and then the sitting in the closed up parked train crap they do to us on the tarmac.
Here's a railfan idea...NJ Transit's NEC train to Trenton NJ. Pick up SEPTA R7 from Trenton NJ to 30th Street Phila. and xfer to SEPTA R2 from 30th St. to Newark, Del. Take the DART #65 bus to Elkton, Maryland, MARC Station. Pick up MARC and after switching in Baltimore you are on your way to Washington DC. Total travel time..??? Who knows, if they add rail service in Delaware south of Newark to Elkton, it could work.
MARC only runs to Perryville I thought. BTW the R2 runs to Oldark.
The R2 runs as far as Newark during rush hours. But your right, the 65 bus runs as far as Elkton...so how do we get from Elkton to Perryville? Cab or hitchhike?...lol.
Infrastructure seperation is a bad idea. Look how things utterly failed in the UK. Not only that, they had a rash of deadly accidents due to cost cutting on the infrastructure side. Those who use the line should own the line as they know how best to allocate resources to further their operations in an efficient manner.
"Infrastructure seperation is a bad idea."
That's exactly why I was talking about contracting with the freight railroads to operate passenger trains. Metra contracts with UP to operate three commuter lines and BNSF to operate a fourth. Under these arrangements, UP or BNSF owns the right of way, tracks, signals, etcetera but receives money from Metra for capital improvements designed to serve the commuter trains.
The most efficient arraingement in the scenario that Amtrak croaks would be to privatize certain runs; NJT is a state agency that has runs on the NEC since they're in NJ and have trackage agreements with Amtrak (who, to my knowledge, owns the line). Don't expect them (NJT) to be running some of their trains into 30th Street Station-Philadelphia if Amtrak does croak; that would require a whole new set of agreements with PennDOT and SEPTA, which may take years if either is unreasonable. This is absent the scenario that CSX gets the lines altogether.
If you want more info on this, look into Archives, since this topic has been widely discussed before.
And also that the MTA (d/b/a Metro-North CRR) owns the ROW that Amtrak operates on in downstate NYS. ConnDOT owns the ex-NY Central & NH RR (n/d/b/a Metro-North CRR CT) ROW that Amtrak uses on it's northern section of the NEC.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Amtrak and the NEC isn't going anywhere. If Nixon, Carter, Reagon, Bush1, Bill and the U.S. Congress could not kill it, it will never die.
As Tip O'Neill said many years ago "All politics is local."
If Amtrak goes it will be "Go Grayhound on our new 4 lane Busway from Union Bus Station to Penn Bus Station."
My guess? The NEC gets spun off as Acela, Inc, and the LD service finally get killed off like they should have been 30 years ago. induvidual states and regions contract to winning bidder for other services.
So how will Americans get places without being a slave to the Airlines or the automakers that have done nothing but SCREW us for the past 50 years?
BTW Amtrak Freight Train #42/43 (Pennsylvanian) will continue to run, it actually turns a profit.
So?
Maybe long distance rail's time has passed.
Just like the stagecoach - don't see to many of those anymore either.
There's places where passenger rail is no doubt essentile to a region, and places where it makes no sense. Ditto for various forms of it.
Maybe it's time to just admit that the slow speed, long distance train is a dinosaur, and look to where rail can make a real difference and a real impact.
Trains frequently move faster than cars (that are reasonably obeying the speed limit). They definitly move faster than Buses and they are far safer than either. Do you want some guy who's been driving for 10 hours to be sharing the highway with you? Trains, busses and long distance car travel are all in the same compeditive market. Cars are faster ONLY at the gross neglect of safety. Finally, trains are the MOSt EFFICNENT form of travel. Cars and busses just guggle gas. Airplanes suc it down faster than a hoover. The recent drop in fuel prices was in part due to the 30% reduction in schedualed flights by the domestic airlines. Why is a form of travel that is just as fast, far safer and far more efficient out dated?
Who says your engineer hasn't been operating for 10 hours though :) Just kidding. Anyway cars and buses should have alerters just like locomotives. To keep drowsy drivers from killing others. The only problem I see is the person still doing 80 behind them. I leave those problems up to the designer.
Shawn.
Maybe not. Some of us prefer to plunk our stack of wrinkled 20's on the counter for a train ticket, because the pleasure of the trip is worth the time/money expended.
Some of us prefer to plunk our stack of wrinkled 20's on the counter for a train ticket, because the pleasure of the trip is worth the time/money expended.
But would you pay the FULL (unsubsidized) price for that long-distance travel? There's a definite argument in favor of states, regions or localities subsidizing commuter rail & local rail transit.
There's less of an argument for ALL Americans subsidizing the remains of a national long-distance passenger rail system. If you had to pay THOSE operating costs ... I bet you wouldn't.
(And, yes, I know the government "should" subsidize capital costs of rail as it does airports and interstate roads. This is JUST about operating costs .... )
Any private company that looks to take over rail operation would want both federal assurances against losses for a certain amount of time during start-up, and more importantly, would want out from under the current union contracts Amtrak has. Obviously, the unions would fight this tooth and nail, and since Bush has a history of priortizing things in terms of what he will and will not compromise on (see his recent education deal with definite-non-Republican Edward M. Kennedy for an example) this doesn't figure to be high up on his food chain.
Rather than get into a battle with the unions over an Amtrak privitization plan, the passenger rail lines will probably be offered to the state(s) first, to see if they want to assume local control and work out sharing agreements with neighboring states for something like the Northeast corridor route. What makes this more likely is what his successor down in Texas did on Monday, according to this Associated Press story:
AUSTIN (AP) - Gov. Rick Perry proposed Monday a sweeping
road and rail plan - with thousands of miles of new highways and
high-speed trains - that would be built using public and private
money and cost up to $175 billion over 50 years.
Most of the system would be toll roads.
Called the Trans Texas Corridor, Perry's proposal would
broaden the state's traditional pay-as-you-go road-building
system to include new financing tools available to the state.
Perry proposes building corridors that would include
highways and railways of six lanes each, three in each direction.
The rail would include high-speed passenger and freight lines.
The corridors would mostly bypass the congestion of big
cities but run parallel to existing major highway corridors,
according to charts Perry displayed. Motorists who do not wish to
use toll roads would have existing free roads as an option, he
said.
Despite a failed past attempt to build high-speed rail in
Texas, Perry said he believes it will work this time.
Toll roads and rail totalling $175 billion is pretty shocking for Texas, where most drivers think God meant for there to be free six-lane Interstates with two lane service roads and 70 mph speed limits. I'm assuming Perry wouldn't have come out with the rail plan if his former boss was planning to scuttle Amtrak's national system entirely -- no point in making Rick look stupid in an election year, especially since his two possible Democratic challengers are running to the right of him on this issue and figure to grab off almost all of the Hispanic vote Bush got in 1998.
Giving the states the chance to run the lines would be something most northeastern states and many in the Midwest would jump at, while states in the South and mountain West would be faced with a "Put Up or Shut Up" option on keeping their rail lines, most of which are long-distance services which are Amtrak's big money-losers.
there goes the train from los angeles to las vegas ..........gone !!
this is also to the posts about a light rail LRV system in las vegas .........
riiiiigghhhttt!!
I went to Las Vegas last month and heard that some of the casinos will invest in a light rail system (probably a monorail) to connect the hotels together along the strip to alleviate traffic and make it more family friendly. I rode one of the trams that connect Mandalay Bay and the Luxor hotels and was impressed.
How come no one thought of rail service from Las Vegas to Los Angeles? A high speed rail line dubbed the "Gamblers Express" would seem to work.
<< How come no one thought of rail service from Las Vegas to Los Angeles? A high speed rail line dubbed the "Gamblers Express" would seem to work. >>
There has been rail service in the past and I believe Amtrak currently offers service.
And I think the airlines would oppose any rail build up.
Amtrak does NOT run train service now, only their Amtrak Thruway buses.
Getting the train restored has turned into a big boondoggle, and it is doubtful if it will ever run.
They actually had one of the Spanish "Talgo" trainsets built, at the same time the five trainsets were built for the State of Washington. The blue trainset (it matched the "Pacific Surfliner" paint scheme) was stored for the longest while, and Amtrak finally sent it up to Washington where it is in regular service with the other trainsets.
"How come no one thought of rail service from Las Vegas to Los Angeles?"
They did. Amtrak planned a daily service between LA and Vegas a few years ago. The plans were concrete enough that they bought a Talgo trainset for the route. (It's used on the Cascades corridor in the meantime.) The UP insisted that they would need to double-track the route to handle the train, and Amtrak agreed. However, part of that double-tracking was through a national park -- a desert, IIRC -- and therefore a long environmental impact review commenced to ensure the second track wouldn't harm native species including the desert tortoise.* The EIS was finally approved a few months ago, and AFAIK the second track is in the process of being installed by UP. I don't recall when they're supposed to be done, or when passenger service will start.
*As if tortoises aren't run over by cars and buses on the LA-Vegas highway for which the rail route would be an alternative.
As if tortoises aren't run over by cars and buses on the LA-Vegas highway for which the rail route would be an alternative.
True, although if that highway were being proposed today it'd have to conform to the same environmental impact review. Presumably it'd have to be built with tortoise underpasses or walls to prevent them being smushed, or whatever. Not that it likely WOULD be built today!
How do tortoises and other critters know to use the underpasses?
Mark
How do tortoises and other critters know to use the underpasses?
If vertical walls are built properly, they can't go anywhere else.
The British are famous for their "Hedgehog Underpasses" in various road projects ....
"The British are famous for their "Hedgehog Underpasses" in various road projects "
Such excesses aren't unique to the Brits or those in the Western U.S., though. On I-78 about 10 miles west of Newark there are two or three consecutive "deer overpasses". From the highway, they look just like any other road crossing above, except that when you look carefully, there's no road -- only trees and brush on the overpass.
CG
Such excesses aren't unique to the Brits or those in the Western U.S.
Well, "excesses" is one way of looking at it. "Features" is the one I'd prefer.
Deer are very much creatures of habit (as anyone unlucky enough to have deer trails on his property knows) so if the bridges are on their usual routes they'll use them. Given that deer are far more pestiliential than hedgehogs (I *think*), though, I'd imagine that anything to make their lives more difficult (crossing-free unfenced dangerous Interstates among them) would have quite a constituency. Although they do enormous damage to cars. As my twice-hit Subaru will show you ....
Deer - i was on a southbound amtak out of albany about 5 years ago, on a sunday night, on one of those new engines - we hit a deer and the damn antlers ripped out the wirin underneath and casued it to stop dead in its tracks... we waited 45 mintues for a replacement engine from albany to get to hudson.
a southbound amtak out of albany about 5 years ago, on a sunday night, on one of those new engines - we hit a deer and the damn antlers ripped out the wirin underneath and casued it to stop dead in its tracks...
Now THAT's a design flaw! If the enginees are susceptible to deer antlers, then I'd think they would also be susceptible to branches that fall onto the track, largish trash that blows onto the track, etc.
That's pathetic.
well better than my g/f at the time, 2 weeks later on the way back to albany, her train ran over a wino in the tunnels just north of penn station..
The wino probably delayed the train more than the deer did!
Ah, that's what they are. Been thru there a few times and kind of wondered about them -- that's in the midst of Watchung Reservation, right?
Love the last line....
And why the hell is everyone worrying abotu the friggin' tortoises if a second track is put inplace? There's already ONE track there, and that hasn't killed off the critters!!!!
Oh, I get it, the Amtrak train will be travelling faster and the tortoises move too slow to get out of the way.
I've rode it too, but it's more like a cable car than anything else.
Yep, it is a cable car. It is propelled by a cable underneath -- the only difference between it and the ones in San Francisco is that the cable is continuously moving, as well as subterranean, in SF. The trains at the Mandalay Bay/Luxor are permanently attached to the cable.
The same sort of system exists between the Monte Carlo and Bellagio, also at the state line (Primm, NV) connecting Whiskey Pete's and Primm Valley Resort. (The "monorail" connecting Primm Valley Resort and Buffalo Bill's is actually a monorail-looking train running on the old "normal" railroad track of the western-style trains they gave up on about three years ago.) And, Circus Circus has the cable-train system connecting the front and back portions of their property in Vegas.
The monorail system between MGM Grand and Bally's, a Disney World design (the two trains are rehabs from WDW) is what they were going to extend the length of Las Vegas. Not sure of the details, but in recent weeks it appears to have run into a big boondoggle somewhere, and might not get built.
I'm staying at the MGM Grand President's Week and planned to use the monorail to reach mid-strip hotels. I hear the entrances are in out of way places and hard to find.
I've walkd the strip before from Luxor to Treasure Island, no that bad but the newly built stiff and extra length to the sidewalks as they curve them in away from the road.
The monorail from the MGM will only go to ONE place...Bally's.
That is NOT "mid-strip". It's still a helluva walk to get to other places you mentioned from Bally's. (It's actually a helluva walk from the monorail station at Bally's just out to Las vegas Blvd.!!!!)
Both Monorail entrances are downstairs from the main casino/check-in areas on the back side of the buildings, away from Las Vegas Blvd. Although the MGM Grand is by far the bigger of the two hotels, the walk through the basement area shopping concourse is actually longer at Bally's.
That's a shame. Considering the amount of traffic jams I ran into while I was there, I would think a monorail would be perfect for a city whose population has blown up since 1990.
And I took that blasted bus a few years back...took damn near over 4 hours. I say build the second track. It would more than pay for itself with all the conventions and all. I'm sure the flight time from Vegas to LA has now got to be in the 2 hour range now.
All wrong.
Yes, driving takes about four hours. It's 275 miles from LA to Las Vegas.
The train will be NOWHERE near as fast. It has to deal with two mountain districts on the way -- and there's no way in hell the train is going to do any more than 45-50 miles an hour climbing the mountain grades. Usually a lot less with Amtrak keeping the motive power down to the bare minimum. When Amtrak did have a train (35/36, the "Desert Wind"), it took over 7.5 hours to get from LA to Las Vegas!!! Yes, that's right, it used to leave LA at 10:45 a.m., Fullerton at 11:20 a.m., make stops in San Bernardino and Barstow, and arrive Las Vegas at 6:20 p.m. I took it once and swore I'd never do it again. (Of course, Amtrak, Union Pacific, and the environmentalists have helped that situation....)
And that was IF the damn thing was on time. (Around Amtrak "IF" is one BIG word.)
The actual flight time for the airlines nowadays from LAX to LAS is 55 minutes on almost all the airlines. Yes, there's the added time for security, but that is getting quicker nowadays. (I know a lot of people who have flown it lately and they say security never took more than 30 minutes in the past month.)
I know, you'll come back and say, well, you still have to drive all the way to the airport so that adds time. Well, a lot of people also have to drive "all the way to the railroad station" too!!
Steve, do you recall how much the trip was from LA to LV? Why did they end the service...don't tell me the enviromentalist stopped the service. I would think they would have put slot machines on the train to alleviate the long ride...lol.
I don't remember the fare....but one time I took the train up, and it was soooooo late that when it came time to get outta bed and head to the Union Plaza to catch the train home on Sunday morning, I called Amtrak to see just HOW late it was. They told me "Uh, it derailed in Nebraska so just take your ticket and go to Greyhound, they'll accept it." I said Fuggetaboutit, called PSA (a regional airline) and flew back to LA. The plane ticket, at the time was $29.00, and I think it was HALF what Amtrak charged. And I was back in LA (in those days) in 45 minutes.
The Desert Wind was one of those trains abolished when Amtrak made some major cuts a few years back. It used to run LA-Salt Lake, then join with the Pioneer and California Zephyr and it would all continute to Chicago as one big train.
I think the fact that UP didn't really like the idea of having to slwo all their money-makers for the Amtrak train, plus the fact it took so long to get from LA to Vegas (and thereby being NOT attractive as a service...) helped to make the train one of the biggest money-losers on the system. As I remember when I rode it, most of the people getting on in LA and Fullerton did NOT get off in Vegas; they were travelling further (SLC and east...)
I think the time zone change make the trip 6.5 hours and not 7.5...
Your other point about the airlines being very well taken, though -- it could be 4.5 and not matter. Southwest flies just about hourly from LAX and Burbank for less than $100 round trip. There's simply no way a railroad can compete with that -- especially over that terrain.
I think the time zone change make the trip 6.5 hours and not 7.5...
Las Vegas and LA are in the same time zone. The change is at the Arizona line during the winter and on the far side of Arizona in the summer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Time zone change?
I hate to tell you this, but Nevada is always on the same time as California.
The travel time stands at 7.5 hours.....
"I hate to tell you this, but Nevada is always on the same time as California."
Perhaps that's why I'm always late for those west coast meetings...
Last month I flew from Phoenix to Vegas and then from Vegas to LA. One of my flights took off and landed at the same time (one hour flight, one hour time difference) and I could have sworn that it was the Vegas to LA trip.
Apparently every last brain cell I have has been used up on railroad schedules and Brady Bunch reruns -- no available space for retaining actual useful info.
CG
Look in the telephone book for the national area code map, and it clearly shows that the dividing line between Pacific and Mountain time zones is on the EAST side of Nevada.
Your time of landing at the same time you took off was definitely on the PHX-LAS leg.
IIRC, Arizona is a state that doesn't change for Standard or Daylight time, they keep the clocks the same all year round. That's why at one point during the year California and Arizona are in the same time zone, and another point in time, California is one hour behind.
That is correct. Our older daughter and her family live in Arizona; my wife is always getting confused about what time it is out there when she goes to call them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Go to www.monorails.org to see information about the Las Vegas Monorail under construction. It also has many excellent description of transit monorails across the world.
Actually, I was wrong about it "not being built at all". I meant that there is a controversy between the city and the Stratosphere Hotel (having to do with a proposed roller coaster of all things...) and the Stratosphere said if the city doesn't approve the plans for the coaster, the Stratosphere wouldn't chip in for the monorail. So, the section to downtown is on hold.
Isn't there a ride on top of the Stratosphere already?
Yeah, they call it the "High Roller". It's a slow, bumpy, uncomfortable roller coaster. (Actually, at the slow speed it travels, I like to think of it as the "World's Highest Merry-Go-Round".)
It's more the novelty of being soooo high on a coaster up there. Even it it did derail (physically impossible) it wouldn't go over the sides the way the thing is built.
The one they want to built would be attatched to the upright of the tower....you'd board at the top, and it would drop and then go across the street into their other parkign lots....then get launched back up. Strange, eh? Apparently everyone living anywhere near the Stratosphere went to the city council and nixed the plan for now.
There's another one between the Mirage and Treasure Island.
When was that impact study done? Considering the drive from LA to LV anything is an improvement. I wonder if Amtrak goes under, would the UP operate passenger service.
More than likely if Amtrak goes under, NOTHING will run. UP does NOT really want to deal with it, even if Amtrak IS paying for double-tracking. However, with the environmental situation, the double-tracking has not even started yet. Might not ever.
>>> Considering the drive from LA to LV anything is an improvement. <<<
The improvement is already there. It is commercial air travel for those in a hurry. For those with time but less money, there are any number of "gamblers' specials," subsidized charter buses featuring drinks and snacks on the way for about $10-$20 roundtrip.
Tom
there was amtrak service once ...i was going to ride it before it was let go.........oh well.......
Ok restore amtrak from los angeles union station then when you arrive in las vegas you can transfer on the same las vegas platform train station to the new LRV rail system in las vegas !!
hell they dont even have storm drains in las vegas ........floods all the time when i rains too much in low areas...
@ CAT RAIL ??............lol!!
Ok restore amtrak from los angeles union station then when you arrive in las vegas you can transfer on the same las vegas
platform train station to the new LRV rail system in las vegas !!
hell they dont even have storm drains in las vegas ........floods all the time when i rains too much in low areas...
@ CAT RAIL ??............lol!!
>>> you can transfer on the same las vegas platform train station to the new LRV rail system <<<
Don't forget with the old Amtrak service, the station was built into the Union Plaza Casino. There would definitely not be a cross platform transfer. There would be a "cross casino" transfer. They are more interested in profitable transfers than convenient ones.
Tom
none of your post will happen .......
0 !!
no way this is going down..............
I bought the DC Metro cars made by Walthers and plan on making a six car consist but notice that they aren't any couplers on the head ends to mate them together. Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated.
Unfortunately, I don't think anyone makes a coupler that looks the least bit transit-like. Years ago, I believe it was Suydam (long out of business) who made a lot of interurban stuff, also produced a couple that couple pass for transit types.....I did try them on the old HO scale IND R-1's I had, and they did NOT function well.
How do you find the motor on that set? I have the Walthers DC Metro car set too and the motors run HORRIBLY on mine!!! It can't even pull itself around a level track let alone the other car!! Did I just get a bad apple or are yours like that too?
I bought 2 of the powered cars so I can make a six car consist. And yes, they run horribly but I don't think from the motor. The wheelsets Walthers supply are terrible.
I was recommeded to exchange the Walthers wheelsets on the dummy cars for IHP's wheelsets which from my understanding run excellent and needs no modifications. Also, I heard a rumor that the old Athearn RDC cars are the same length as the DC Metro cars and with a little modifying, you could use them as power cars.
Also, I heard a rumor that the old Athearn RDC cars are the same length as the DC Metro cars and with a little modifying, you could use them as power cars.
Too much work. North West Short Line has power trucks that can be fitted to the Walthers chassis - not a lot less work, admittedly, but you'll get significantly better results for about the same money. (Unless, of course, you like the 3000 mph effect of Athearn's rubber band drive in those RDCs.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It might be too much work modifying the Athearn RDC frames to fit and stay under the WMATA car bodies.
The funny thing is....the company that originally designed the WMATA cars -- but never made them -- also designed the BART cars that Walthers once offered. It was known as "American GK Model Works". Their BART trains were, in fact,powered by the Athearn RDC drives which did 300 scale miles an hour (the moment any sort of voltage came from your power pack). The BART trains produced by American GK were aluminum extruded body shells with plastic ends; once Walthers bought the designs from the defunct American GK, they tooled them to be cast in plastic.
American GK was also the company responsible for the E60CP passenger and E60CF freight locomotives marketed by Walthers. They also had in the works a complete Amtrak Amfleet train -- not just the coaches and cafes, but Amfleet baggage, combine, diner, and even dome and boat-tail observations! I only saw artist conception drawings, back in the early 70's and then American GK went out of business -- their designs surfaced as much refined designed with Walthers in the mid-1980's.
"I heard a rumor that the old Athearn RDC cars are the same length as the DC Metro cars and with a little modifying"
Oh Yuck! The Athern RDC's run so badly, that I have pulled the motors out of all of mine, and use them at the cab end of a push-pull consist, usually with an Atlas or Kato locomotive providing the power.
Of course, it might make nice a nice commuter train, but it is not a subway train.
Elias
I figure if I set up the DC Metro cars to run 6 cars as a six car consist, the rubber band drive of the old Athearn RDC's won't be that bad...at least I can run it as an express train...lol. By the way, what is the website for that other company that makes the wheelsets?
Last night I was riding a southbound r-32 E (guess where I was headed????) and gazed thru the railfan window when the train left Canal St. After the switch, there is a stub tunnel and wall headed left (southeast). Was that to be part of the Second System headed to where??? Btw, I wont post anymore about the terminal stop on my E because many of you already have!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tony
Last night I was riding a southbound r-32 E ... and gazed thru the railfan window when the train left Canal St. After the switch, there is a stub tunnel and wall headed left (southeast). Was that to be part of the Second System headed to where???
See Subtalk's Eighth Avenue line page between the Canal Street/Holland Tunnel and Chambers/WTC station entries.
I saw the same stub doing the same ride this morning. But next time, check the background info on SubTalk first!
That's part of the IND proposed Second System that was not built. It was supposed to connect up with the South 4th Street station that was supposed to connect many different IND lines.
Specifically, it was supposed to be the Worth St. line.
I read the info on this stub on this site and I guess I had interperted wrong. I don't see it mentioned on the track map (prob because there are no tracks) lol.
Also for those of you who would know... how difficult would it be to extend the "E" line south of WTC?? With the "A" & "C" underneath it and the Bwy BMT Cortlandt station almost in front of it, I don't see how it would be possible.
In case you're wondering why I am asking, I am working on my own "fantasy subway".
The Worth St. line is covered on the 2nd system pages found at this site. There is a bell just south of Canal St. to accomodate the capture of the 8th Av local tracks. The line would have traveled along Worth and East Broadway, and thence into the grandiose S 4th St station in Williamsburgh.
do they still run R32s on the F? I rode the E today and didn't see any....
5 R32s out of 45 F trains during morning rush, and 4 R32s out of 46 F trains during evening rush. You may catch a bad break that all R32 F trains were beyond your observations.
Patience is the best thing for catching R32 F trains. :) I waited nearly forty minutes staying frozen trying to catch an R32 F train several weeks ago.
Chaohwa
I rode an R32 F train this morning for my commute.
I saw plenty of them yesterday. In fact, I had to avoid one.
They run a good amount. Every time I'm on the Queens Blvd Line I see at least one.
If you want one try on the weekends where they are more plentiful.
Yep, they certainly are on the F train. I had to wait 20 minutes for one a few weeks ago (I let an r46 go by) so I could get a railfan window view of the 63rd street connector. -Nick
I really have enjoyed very much the great information and expertise of the guys who take the time posting questions and responses on this site !
...........After leaving the uptown #1 at 72nd on Jan 20 I clearly saw a red 13 on the front rollsign of this car (1875) midtrain. I thought that was very odd since I have read no info here (possible missed it) to indicate that the signs on these cars have that number....I am sure that is what I saw --unless it was a mirage -- can anyone shed some light on the situation ?? anyone seen the same?
would appreciate it if anyone has a free minute to respond
It's just a number for some future use if they come up with such a use... it doesn't mean they started a #13 train without you knowing about it.
Hey, welcome back!
Other provisional bullets on the R-62 signs are a red 12, green 8, 10, 12, 14, and a purple 11.
i was watching the news about the WTC on the E line now open. they intend to destroy the Cortlandt st station on the 1/9 line and rebuild it. Can they really do that in the time alotted from march-november and completely restore the 7av line prior to 9/11/01. the 2 express and 3 express to flatbush and new lots. Anyways i miss the 2 as the express. lol it won't matter cause the redbirds will prolly be off the 2 by the time its express again. Anyways do u guys really think they can do it in 8 months?
i was watching the news about the WTC ... they intend to destroy the Cortlandt st station on the 1/9 line and rebuild it. Can they really do that in the time alotted from march-november and completely restore the 7av line prior to 9/11/01.
No. And they're not going to try. The Cortlandt station will be demolished and just replaced with track. There won't be a new stop there until larger plans for a unified underground transit center are agreed to all the parties: Port Authority, TA, State of NY, City of NY, etc.
They *do* believe they can get the tracks back into service, so locals can use the South Ferry loop to turn, by November. But they're not going to try to restore that piece to pre-9/11 condition.
Hmm. I had a thought.. I wonder if that stretch of the 1/9 will be "open air" temporarily until something is built on top...
I wonder if that stretch of the 1/9 will be "open air" temporarily until something is built on top...
I'd be surprised. At least they'd cover with construction boarding -- as long as it's a construction site, there will be cranes and always the possibility of stuff dropping through the air. I'd think having an open subway ROW would be considered too risky.
I agree with that also!
I would bet on an excavation of the area, then metal plating over the top after the new trackbed walls and support columns are put up.
The columns themselves may be a clue about how permanent the new tunnel will be. If they look like they're just there to keep the temporary roof up, the MTA and Port Authority might be looking at dropping the level of the 1/9 tracks down lower in the future, to permit any underground mall or plaza to better follow the slope of the above-ground street contour between Church and West streets -- No platform means new tunnels can more easily be built below and outside the temporary tracks, if the new Cortlandt/WTC station was an island platform and one level lower.
But if the columns look more permanent when the line reopens at the end of the year, or if they put a crash wall in, then the plans will probably be to keep the tunnel location as is whenever a final decision is made on the WTC site.
I think a new station would likely be a wide island platform. A new station would need to be ADA-compatible. An island platform allows both a single elevator to service both directions, and allows for direction changes so that those challenged people can get to stations that may only be partially accessible. (ie, 50th St on the IND)
-Hank
It makes sense to lower the tracks so that the walkway from the Winter Garden to Broadway can pass above the tracks. Unfortunately, that also forces the PATH tracks down to a lower level where they cross under the 1/9, thus making for a longer escalator at the PATH terminal. I can't think of a good way out of that little problem.
Given the grade the PATH trains would have rising from the tunnels to their former (and proposed future) station at Hudson Terminal, I think the 1/9 tracks could be dropped at least one level and still leave more than enough room for the PATH tracks to pass underneath (as for using the old PATH station temporarily, from what I've heard a new entrance would be created to it from Vescey or Liberty street, so rebuilding/maintaining the old access escalator/stairs area down to the PATH mezzanine wouldn't be neceesary.
If the PATH tracks are low enough, it would sure save a lot of commuter time over the decades if they dropped the 1/9 tracks a bit to allow the walkway to go overhead.
By the way, it doesn't look like it will be a traditional excavation. Last Saturday's Times had a picture of the WTC site from the Marriott Financial Center Hotel. You can see the 1/9 Greenwich St corridor as an elevated ridge with concrete walls, rising above the excavation that has already taken place on either side.
So maybe they will just shave the top off that ridge, make sure the surface is firm and porperly supported, and lay down new rail. Nothing can really fall from above at the moment, since this ridge is higher than all its surroundings.
honestly, either it will be done by the time my daughter turns one or by the time I turn 26. So it's between June and December.
I think it will take longer than 8 months. Probably a year or two.
Supposedly they're working around the clock on this project.
The picture that we were discussing weeks back of the R-68 on the B around the mid-late 1980s in NYC Subway Cars you were saying that the picture was only signed for the B line for the picture. That's probably not true. I think that train was either tested in passenger service or it was a simulated test run on the B line?
You stated the picture was from 1986. If so, it was probably staged. However, in 1989 an occasional R68 B may have been running. Without exact dates, anything is possible.
I didn't say that the picture was exactly from 1986. I said that it was probably from around the Manhattan Bridge reroute from 1986-1988. But you said that no R68(either the pilot or the delivery of more on the TA property)ran on the reroute B-Broadway Express/West End Local around the years mentioned above. Damn! If anybody had a exact B division car assignment from 1989 any dates we will see if an occasional R68 ran on the B that year.
I often wonder what will come first the Second Ave Subway or PA-NJ rail link. They have to do something I-80 aways turns into a nightmare and Martz is too expensive and you have to pay for the parking besides.
I use I-80 from PA to NYC almost every day I don't see too many problems since I work PM'S but when I was AM's the Rush Hour on I-80 which is from 5:30AM-9:30AM and 3PM to 8PM is a problem. In the morning its bumper to bumper from Mile marker 30 to 45. You do about 35MPH in a 65MPH zone. If there is an accident then traffic is almost at a stand still. Then when you get passed all of that your still have to battle the GWB,Lincoln or Holland tunnels. The GWB in the morning most of the time turns into a 45 minute wait. Thats something you don't want to hear if your running late. Then lets hope theres not an Accident of the Cross Bronx/ Deegan merge then add 20 more minutes.
When I worked morning I always gave myself 3 Hours. If I have a 8AM report leave at 5AM. Now that I'm on PM's its better for me bacause I just give myself alittle less the 2 Hours and I make it since there are no real traffic problems around 2PM.
The commute itself with no problems can be done in 1Hr 30Mins and sometimes 1 hour and 10 Minutes if you push it.
Wave when you pass marker 14. The Erie Lackawanna 'cut' run won't be a bargain timewise as I understand it will extend from Hackettstown. I considered the trip Sept. 14th when I left my company car for good in the Bronx...took a last minute Lakeland Bus to Dover instead. That train run won't become serious until everyone realises how valuable a link it can be and the offending residents of Blairstown are put in their place. CI Peter
Are there any plans for anyone else to contribute some of the (honestly) interesting articles that Dave's put into the FAQ called "A Day In The Life Of..." ???
Stuart, RLine86Man
(Personally, I'd like to see one of these four:
1-...a LIRR train operator
2-...a LIRR conductor
3-...a NYCT Bus Operator
and 4-...a typical passenger) [Don't kill me about # 4...just curious]
I agree. Day in the life of an Amtrak T/O would also be nice, but that one admittedly doesn't fit into the "NYC Transit" theme.
Also, more NYCTA day in the life stories (more C/O and T/O) would be nice. The original ones are great.
I have lots of storys. Maybe when I have a chance to write up one of my interesting days down I'll send one in adding to the NYC Transit C/R.
You can tell them the story of aged hippies from upstate taking over your train and then grabbing someone else's handle ... hmmm ... maybe not ...
Maybe not but here are some others storys I can use.
1. The R142 with a mind of its own
2. A mixed up day on the No.5 Line
3. A super long day on the No.2 Line
4. Fights on the No.6 Line
5. The lost No.4 train
6. Running South Ferry
Anyway on the hand maybe not Alex is a great job on the Day of life as a Subway Conductor.
You forgot the best story of all ... "beat the CLOCK!" :)
How could I forget "Beat the clock" I do it every day.
I was trying to be nice ... notice I didn't suggest the daily conductor game of "what's that smell?" :)
Half the time, it's the last C/R.
Heh. IF you're lucky. :)
How about A Day in the Life of a Conductor on the R-1/9s?:-)
Or substitute motorman for conductor.:-)
I wonder if anybody would give a rat's ass? :)
Oh Selkirk, I would be very glad to give you a rat's ass.
How many times did a train buck on you?
Depended on dragging shoes and dead motors ... happened often enough although the R10's were king of the hill for the old "rodeo rip" ... you have a nice recording of "skreeee..eee... *BANG*!!!" heh. R1/9's weren't QUITE as bad although some could give you a good concussion for your buck and dump some geese on the floor at each stop. :)
GOODY!!!!!!!!! *I loved the T/O AND C/R stories*
Stuart, RLine86Man
Thank you. Always nice to be appreciated.
Now I'm in the mood just to write the "A Day In The Life...of an typical passenger" and "A Day In The Life...of A LIRR Conductor" (I've got a friend that's a conductor on the LIRR)
Stuart, RLine86Man
If you have a friend who's a C/R on the LIRR then he must be familiar with this line at the beginning of every month: "...uh...sorry I forgot my ticket..."
BMTman
Yep....hears it EVERY trip at least once. (On the 1st day that the ticket is usable.)
Stuart, RLine86Man
A few years ago I saw a book that was entirely made up of stories told my NYC transit workers. I wish now that I had bought it. Has anyone else heard of a book like that? I don't remember the title, author, or ISBN.
Mark
It's in the bibliography. Sounds like "I've been working on the subway: folklore and oral history of transit" to me.
I looked thru it....sounds more like "Transit Talk: New York's Bus and Subway Workers Tell Their Stories" Hell, I might just get both of 'em.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Small book with a pen & ink of an R-32 on the cover? I've Been Working on the Subway, ©1991, ISBN 0963749293, published by, and still available at, the New York Transit Museum.
When it re-opens in '03, that is.
Stuart, RLine86Man
When it re-opens in '03, that is.
Nope; the gift shop at the Grand Central gallery still thrives :).
But is it there, too? Ahh....I'm only a short walk away from the Grand Central Toimenal (int. misspell)...I'll go take a look tomorrow afternoon (busy today for lunch)
Stuart, RLine86Man
OK. Do we have any volunteers--
we could use
signal maintainer
any maintenance title
bus operator
painter
station supervisor
TSS
CTA
any other titles!
On the Juice- how about a report of RCI activities!
It seems that Albany is holding up the $$$ that the MTA needs to finance its capital projects. According to the enclosed article, this could result in less $$$ being available for capital projects, including the purchase of new cars and work on the 2nd Avenue line and may force the MTA to raise fares.
I am enclosing the entire NY Post article below.
Hmmm...if faced with budget cuts, I wonder which capital project will be the first to go???? Duh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RED TAPE MAY STICK YOU WITH FARE HIKE
By DAN MANGAN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
January 29, 2002 -- The MTA says Albany is thwarting its plans to free up $4.6 billion in funds earmarked for subways and buses, among other projects.
And if the Capital Program Review Board continues to oppose a debt restructuring, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority could face a $125 million deficit in its budget, officials say - making a fare or toll hike more likely.
The scenario was outlined at an MTA Finance Committee meeting yesterday when finance director Kim Paparello discussed the potential "$4.6 billion hole."
Paparello said the MTA has been trying to refinance $14 billion in debt since last May.
Because interest rates currently are low, it could generate $4.6 billion in funds for its capital program by refinancing.
"It's as close as you can get to free money," Paparello said.
But the Capital Program Review Board, an oversight group whose members are appointed by the governor and state Legislature, is holding up approval, Paparello said.
If the plan isn't approved, it could mean that less money will be available for capital projects, including the purchase of new subway cars and buses and work on the proposed Second Avenue line.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's old is new again.
THIS DOES NOT SURPRISE ME ONE *beeping constantly* BIT!!!!!!
HAND IT TO THE *beeping constantly* STATE TO DO THIS A G A I N !!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm not sure I understood the reasons for the Capital Program Review Board to withold approval of the debt restructuring. Were they not given, or did I just miss the reasons?
Mark
I think OPTO is wack. Alot of guys on the G says its stupid because when u close the doors, lets say the G pulls off and someone is in the back doors. u will not be able to look because ur eyes need to be on the road. however some LIRR Engineers operate the doors and have the C/R look. i see this at Jamaica alot and any time the Engineer side opens
I doubt the engineer ever opens the doors on the LIRR. That's working out of classification and usually wouldn't be done for labor and jurisdictional reasons.
As to OPTO being a "good thing." It's always better to have more personnel rather than less on the subway. The subways were safer and more orderly when there was a conductor between every two cars. However, labor (salaries, wages and benefits) is about 90 percent of all operating expenditures (US DOT FTA, 1998). So if the MTA wants to keep the fare down, labor is the numebr one place to look. How much would you be willing to see the fare increase in order to keep, or even increase, the number of conductors?
I've seen it with my own eyes on the Port Washington line. The motorman was still in the cab coming to a stop, the conductor handed him the key, and he opened the doors on engineer side, and closed em.
But why? Almost all trains on the LIRR have a conductor and a brakeman, either of whom can operate part or all the doors. WHy would the conductor (who has to walk the cars anyway) be passing his key off to the engineer to operate the doors?
The conductor was right beside the engineer in the front car, and he didn't want to reach over the engineer, making the engineer uncomfortable.
1. welcome to dead horse number six
2. NO NEW SYSTEM (post 1959)in the US has two person crewing
3. As Paul points out its the money.
4. Been on a human operated elevator recently?
5. SF has recemtly (finally) instituted OPTO on LRV trains (2-3 cars) despite some union foot dragging when proposed several years back.
6. OPTO on CTA dates to the 60's when the choce faced by the union was fifty % cu in service or OPTO for the Evanston-Howard off hour trains. (the "one man cars #'s1-50 were specially built for this service with fareboxes in the cabs)
.
SEPTA M-4's on the Market-Frankford Line are OPTO and work quite well.
There is a system of TV cameras which allow the operator to see either side of the train.
The Broad st. subway is also OPTO, with a full width front cab, so the operator can stand up to see the right hand side , or run to the other side of the cab for the other side. It's rather tiring, if you ask me!!!
Chuck Greene
>>4. Been on a human operated elevator recently?<<
Yeah.....Sat. Jan. 26th at 168th St on the #1 riding up to the IND station for the (A).
Bill "Newkirk"
When WMATA was manual, I saw one or two T/Os have one hand on the controller and they were scanning for draggings at the same time at the side platform stations. You can do it in NYC provided you make sure the first block or two are clear first since your 2nd hand doesn't need to be on the brake handle.
OPTO in New York is ok, but only for shuttles. This OPTO stuff on the G is downright inhumane for the rookie T/O's whom are forced to work it since they were the only jobs left at the end of the pick. I know that one has to pay dues, but DAMN!
6 hours and 45 minutes OPTO cab time which includes 3 round trips and 3 relays at CTL is too much work.
Question: In other cities where OPTO is run, how many round trips does an operator actually make, and what is the running time for the line in question? I'd like to see if the operator works harder that the G crews.
I've had WMATA T/Os at various times. One guy I've gotten every day of the week except Saturday. Another, I've had as early in the afternoon as 12:45 PM and as late as about 5 AND on a Saturday morning at about 10 AM. Also, some of our guys come in, do AM rush, take some time off, then come back and do it again. Presumebly, the last thing is a senior thing, since they are paid for the time between shifts. Now how is that for hard?
New technology needs to be employed to help the T/o out. The technology is out thier, the union should investigate the best technologies for thier members needs. I believe a system of cameras which display images into gogoles are the best solution. A new england company makes a pair of googles (or attachemnt to current glases) which allow the user to both see ahead and the image. Cuircuit board manufactures and drug companies use them. The price is coming down fast also on the product. This would allow the oporator to both drive the train and oporate the door from whithout getting up + focus on the road ahead plus monitor the platform as the train leaves the staion. The google or attachemnt to glasses is light weight.
Googles?
Only a bean counter would justify OPTO.
We have it here in Chicago since 1997 - So far, no major incidents have occurred.
From the passenger standpoint, OPTO reduces the crew presence, thus the operation appears to be less safe.
From the operational standpoint, well, the operator is out there on their own. At the CERA meeting, it was mentioned that if you get 'caught off the third rail', it takes two people to use the stinger. So, a Supervisor needs to be called. Disruption in service!
I realize that CTA operates much shorter trains than NYCTA, but when something happens out on the road it is good to have someone on the train with you to help out.
In this man's opinion, OPTO is NOT a good thing. From an economic reality standpoint, it was only a matter of time.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
There are many more crowded subways (per capita, not necessarily more passengers) then NYC out there that can manage it, so I don't see what the problem is in NYC.
A better system needs to be in place. A New England company sells googles (or an attachment to one current glasses) that allow the user to both view whats ahead and a video feed. Circuit board manufactures(really detailed work) use them to allow the computer board assembler to view the blueprint for the circuit board while assembling the board. Drug companies also use the technology.
The companies goal is to make them affortable enough to become a mass market product.
according to WCBS am, Metro North is checking into the feasiblity of bi-levels for the New Haven Line. The only cocnern is the Park Aveneu Tunnel.
Wouldn't it be a concern for all the lines except the west-of-Hudson lines?
>>according to WCBS am, Metro North is checking into the feasiblity of bi-levels for the New Haven Line. The only cocnern is the Park Aveneu Tunnel<<
Seems like Metro North has a memory problem. They tested the LIRR C-1s and came to the conclusion that they wouldn't fit in the Park Ave tunnel. If they had different bi-levels built they sure would have the same height problem.
Bill "Newkirk"
Metro-North is supposed to be getting bi-levels as part of a contract for NJTransit. I believe that the supplier will be Boardier.
They would run west of Hudson then. I think that is the plan at least.
Metro North is getting 65 Comet V's for west of Hudson. The bi-level for the NH is pure fantasy. I for one hope NJT's don't get funded. They should be getting MU's.
MUs won't solve the crowding problem. I'd rather bilevels for rush hour expresses (Trenton, Long Branch / Bay Head (conn), Port Jervis, High Bridge), and MUs for short distance (or at least frequent stop) locals (South Amboy LCL, Summit LCL, Gladstone LCL, Montclair LCL after connection). They will have to keep MUs of some sort for the shorter Gladstone trains and Princeton Shuttle.
>>Metro-North is supposed to be getting bi-levels as part of a contract for NJTransit. I believe that the supplier will be Boardier.<<
Okaaayy.. I'll accept that. But it was known when the C-1s were tested there that they couldn't clear the tunnels. Since that test if they didn't raise the tunnel, did they lower the roadbed ?
Or they could manufacture special lower height bi-levels restricted to passengers and conductors 5 feet and under. heh heh !
Bill "Newkirk"
I read the article in one of the trade journals a few months ago (Either Railway Age, Progressive Railroading or Mass Transit). I think the bi-levels were meant for the Metro-North line west of the Hudson only. No mention was made of using them on the New haven line (in that article). The bulk of the order was going to NJ Transit and again, no mention was made ofd them being used into NYC Penn Station either. I'm not sure but I think I remember some mention of a car profile similar to that of the GO trains which may have a smaller profile than the C-1/C-3.
Hey, I know - 'kneeling' bilevels, like the busses. Get near the tunnel *pfffffffttt!* drop the car a few inches to a foot, slip in at low speed, hit the terminal *pfffft!* raise back up ;)
Cute *lol* however, IF MNCRR were to consider this..........................they'd have a major problem of the cars HItTING THE TRACKS!!!!!! Can you say "SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!"
Stuart, RLine86Man
The Bi-Levels are 8 inches too high. They are going to do a study to determine if a clearance project (roadbed lowering) is feasable.
Most probably (on the order of 97-99%) UNfeasible...just watch and see...
Stuart, RLine86Man
>>The Bi-Levels are 8 inches too high. They are going to do a study to determine if a clearance project (roadbed lowering) is feasable<<
Ah that's the rub ! Lower the roadbed. I wonder if the bi-levels will clear the approach to GCT south of the tunnels where everything fans out ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They might try using a few "Bi-Level" enabled tracks at one extreme side of the terminal or another.
>>They might try using a few "Bi-Level" enabled tracks at one extreme side of the terminal or another<<
Hey wait a minute! What about those 10 LIRR C-1 bi-levels that no railroad wants ? Are they too oddball to be used if the roadbed was lowered ? Just a silly thought.
Bill "Newkirk"
Save a few FL-9's because they are the only ones compatible to run with the C1's. So either MNR or the LIRR would operate them. Otherwise those cars would have to be scrapped because it is too expensive to remodify those cars to run with the P32's or the DE/DM30's.
From "Progressive Railroading", October 2001 issue NJT plans to purchase 231 Bi-level push-pull cars. No mention of running into Penn Station but improvements at Suffern yd. are also to be made.
At the same time, Metro-North will purchase 180 electric cars for the Harlem & Hudson lines. No mention of New Haven lines. One interesting item is that Metro-North is planning direct service to Penn Station which would presumably be from the New Haven line.
Also it mentions under the Metro-North section of the article that there is a plan to extend the #7 line west and south to the Javitts Center.
One other item - LIRR will spend $19.3 million to reconfigure the Queens interlocking.
>>One interesting item is that Metro-North is planning direct service to Penn Station which would presumably be from the New Haven line.<<
Wow!, riding across the Hell Gate Bridge via Metro North without an expensive Amtrak ticket. Could Penn Sta squeeze in a MN train or two ?
Bill "Newkirk"
What is wrong with QUEENS? It seems perfectly logical or at least no less logical than VALLEY. I hope nothing happens to QUEENS tower.
"What is wrong with QUEENS? It seems perfectly logical or at least no less logical than VALLEY."
Mike, now that you are almost an adult, you need to start looking at things more objectively! I don't believe I said that anything was wrong with the Queens interlocking. I merely reported something that was written in a trade journal.
However, if you want to look at it objectively, the eastern end of Queens interlocking was modified several years ago when the equilateral switches were installed. Originally, they were rated at 80 MPH but downgraded to 60 MPH. At the western end of Queens interlocking the switches are still 30 MPH. It would be my guess that the LIRR might want to reconfigure that segment of the interlocking.
As to your 2nd point, what does Valley have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that the LIRR should reconfigure Valley first? It would seem that the LIRR might disagree. OR Are you saying that the LIRR should do Queens and Valley at the same time? I don't see the linkage here.
Mike, now that you are almost an adult, you need to start looking at things more objectively! I don't believe I said that anything was wrong with the Queens interlocking. I merely reported something that was written in a trade journal.
Which implies that you have further information regarding said project from reading said article. Therefore you stand a good chance of knowing what is wrong with QUEENS. I proceded to ask you what is wrong with QUEENS in the hopes that you would not act like a jackass and provide me with a straight answer.
As to your 2nd point, what does Valley have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that the LIRR should reconfigure Valley first? It would seem that the LIRR might disagree. OR Are you saying that the LIRR should do Queens and Valley at the same time? I don't see the linkage here.
VALLEY and QUEENS have similar layouts, e.g. 4 track mainline crossover with an immediate two track divergence and another delayed 2 track divergence. There is either something special about QUEENS, the LIAR is wasting its money on a pointless project that will endanger an interlocking tower and a score of penumatic switches or VALLEY interlocking ix next on the chopping block. Did you trade article say anything about that?
As far as I know Queens interlocking may be modified for the new third Main Line track. Since Valley will not have tracks added, that may be the reason for the Queens interlocking project. Eventually all towers on the LIRR will no longer exist.
Thank you, a straight answer.
Actually, your comment about towers might not be entirely correct. The LIRR has adopted what is most likley the most sensible approach to Railroad traffic control (please read the latest Hot Times). The LIRR has basically automated and installed CTC like every other railroad, except for the fact that instead of having one big dispatching centre they have each dispatching desk located in a lineside tower. The LIRR is a busy system and a dispatching centre would not save them any Tower Op/Dispatcher positions w/o comming at the expense of service (again see the new Hot Times). I am sure that the old US&S interlocking machines will be replaced with solid state "video game" contraptions one of these days and the tower structures might be turned into something resembling HAROLD, but I would look for the towers to last. After all, a distribusted system does have its advantages. It is less prone to critical failure (terrorism, loss of power, floods, etc) and giving a dispatcher a direct view of the tracks can only help smooth out operations. Converting the system would probably not save enough money or improve efficiency to justify the expense. Anyway, time will tell, but I would place my money with the towers.
BTW, I was listening to a C/R training a new hire. At the manual block limits out on Diesel territory, they still use those manual crank phones to call the tower. Pretty nifty.
Mike, now that you are almost an adult, you need to start looking at things more objectively! I don't believe I said that anything was wrong with the Queens interlocking. I merely reported something that was written in a trade journal.
Which implies that you have further information regarding said project from reading said article
Your logic is incomprehensible!
VALLEY and QUEENS have similar layouts, e.g. 4 track mainline crossover with an immediate two track divergence and another delayed 2 track divergence. There is either something special about QUEENS, the LIAR is wasting its money on a pointless project that will endanger an interlocking tower and a score of penumatic switches or VALLEY interlocking ix next on the chopping block. Did you trade article say anything about that?
There was one sentence in the article about Queens Interlocking. PERIOD, MIKE. Does the term English 101 have any meaning to you?
As you have a finite time constraint, it is entirely rational that you would only post information from an article that would have direct relivence to the subject thread. You posted a project and a dollar amount, further details did would not have factored into the thread topic had a very good probibility of being omitted. You could have simply told me that the artical gave no further details, but I guess you decided that being a dick was more entertaining.
So the bi-levels will probably appear on the Main/Bergen/Port Jervis line if they are modifying Suffern Yard. Have these cars been ordered yet? If so, when will they arrive?
If the bi-levels fit the tunnels then great. If not then something else has to be tried.
Were could Metro-North run bi-levels? Can they run them on the Hudson, Harlem and New Haven Lines?
#3 West End Jeff
according to WCBS AM 880 it would be the New Haven Line- their concern is the Park Avenue Tunnel.Perhaps Todd hasd a link to their story.
That's Metro North and transit together!
I searched the Web site and archives, and found no reference to the MN story. Not all stories broadcast make it onto the Web site.
Cow-a-sockee and Lazy-boy recliners will do a joint venture in developing bi-level cars.
All upper level seats will be in a permenant reclined position, thus allowing the roof line to be lowered to permit Penn Station/Grand Central access.
The Darwin commeettee forbids Standees
avid
*lmao*
I like that prospect........work up a proposal to....what was it you called 'em? Ahh... (ahem) "Cow-ah-sockie" and see what they say.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Perhaps it's part of the plan to run some of the MN New Haven line trains into Penn Station via the Hell Gate bridge. Bi-levels can also be used on the Hudson line, following the SLAMTRAK route on the west side into Penn Station. It's pretty clear that bi-levels wcan be accomodated on both of these routes without modifications.
Except that there isn't clearance for the bi-levels in the tunnel connecting the ex-NYC line to NYP (and possibly in the tunnel segment farther north either).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
are you talking about The Riverside "west side improvement" Tunnel? im not sure what you are talking about, just trying to get an image.
Thanks
are you talking about The Riverside "west side improvement" Tunnel? im not sure what you are talking about, just trying to get an image.
He's talking about the "West Side Connector," a late Eighties Amtrak project that connecting the West Side Line into NY Penn by digging a single-track tunnel from that line under the foundations of some large buildings into the Penn track fan.
It opened in 1991, allowing Amtrak to relocate all Empire trains (north on the Hudson Line to Albany, Buffalo and Canadian destinations) from Grand Central to Penn, thereby unifying its NYC trains in a single location.
Yes, that's the one...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
the amtrak line down the west side, through the 'freedom tunnel'. who knows, maybe MN will build a station in there and whats-his-name will have to move out. More trains, more security, less graffito-hobo phun. So it goes in NYC...
Under another forum a MN engineer states that the C1 Bi-Level cars were ran into GCT only on certain tracks. I saw on the same posting that MN is considering the project but at this time funds are not available. The trains coming from the New Haven line into Penn would operate off of the catenary. This is a plan once East Side Access becomes available.
Doesn't the catenary terminate before the trains hit the Park Avenue Tunnel??????
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yes, but he's referring to the LIRR tunnels.
It seems that these stickers are being applied again, below the door window. (on the concourse R68s)
No se apoye contra la puerta?
"No se apoye contra la puerta?"
My very first thought upon reading that post.
CG
The R62s on the #1 had the clear labels. On the left door it had DO NOT LEAN AGAINST DOOR on one side and NO SE APOYA CONTRA LA PUERTA on the other. Sounds like the fleet might be getting those back, huh?
I just put on a bunch today. There is a ban sign with a stick figure of 'The Saint' with a broken back but no Poya Canta La Puerto Rico. CI Peter
They are going to be applied to the doors of all 6,000+ cars in the fleet. It's just that the Concourse Shop management is a just a little bit ahead of the rest :-)
When and WHY were they removed in the first place?
When was the application of stickers started?
Will Any redbirds get them?
When and WHY were they removed in the first place?
When, I can't say. They were replaced with the "Do Not Hold The Doors" sticker because that was perceived to be a greater problem at one time or another - pre-door obstruction. The reasons for some of these decisions is sometimes not apparent to operating personnel.
When was the application of stickers started?
The decals were delivered on Thursday 1/24. The instructions to begin installation went out on 1/28.
Will Any redbirds get them?
I suppose so.
Great. More things to look for when doing put-ins. Will their absence be something to be noted as a car defect?
I remember a past decal: "Keep Hands Off Doors"
The "DO NOT LEAN ON DOORS" decal has been standard here in Boston for many years, but until 1969, the doors were hung on the outside of the body, which looked scary at best. Was this precipitated by a door failure of some sort?
What about the TA sticker "Please keep hands off the doors"? In English only.
It was like this:
PLEASE KEEP HANDS||OFF THE DOORS
iirc
Peace,
ANDEE
Personally I'd go for something like this:
"KEEP YOUR STINKING, FILTHY, DISEASE INFESTED HANDS OFF OF ME!"
*lol*
Just kidding
Stuart, RLine86Man
LOL i remember working in the Transit museum as a volunteer. some of the R30s said KEEP YOUR HANDS{} OFF THE DOORS.
I would have it say
STAY{} OFF THE DOORS lol
i say stop saying please!
just be like
STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS!
The older stickers on R units said, "PLEASE KEEP HANDS" "OFF THE DOORS".
Yes there was an incident of some sort which gave us GOs to install NEW stickers on all trainsets in 239th. While the R142 units were not at fault, TAs decision was ALL cars. The sticker has a little 'The Saint' stick figure with a broken back leaning his butt against a door in a 'ban circle' along with DNLOTD. CI Peter
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
PS: Fish will not get to enjoy the stickers on Redbird carbody as all doors are removed before the Deep Six. CI Peter
True dat....
Stuart, RLine86Man
why? Does leaning against the doors have any negative risks for the door or the people? The end doors maybe, because they can open and you can fall out, but the side doors don't (can't?) spontaneously open while the train is moving.
They can in some places. In others, the door will be considered open. Besides, if someone isn't paying attention, when it opens at a station, it might be pretty nasty.
Yep........wery nasty indeed. :-D
And I have to say it's about time they put 'em back...I had a vision that they were going to keep the two of 'em....one on top, and one on bottom.
Stuart, RLine86Man
It could get even nastier if the doors were to open up on the wrong side.
I remember the old "Please keep hands" "Off the doors" labels. Heck, the BMT standards had "Please keep hands OFF door" labels on each and every door leaf. So did the Triplexes.
Like I said, even the LIRR M-1's before, let's say, 1998, still had a few trains that had those labels. They're also (I believe) on the R-30 and R-36 museum cars in the (now closed for rehab) Transit Museum.
Stuart, RLine86Man
All of the IND/BMT R units at the Transit Museum still have those stickers, as well as the IRT SMEE cars.
I really only noticed 'em on the 30 and 36 cars there. But thanx for the correct info.
Stuart, RLine86Man
"Train Dude" can elaborate on this, but there are two risks I can think of right off that are associated with leaning on the doors.
1. The doors CAN open while the train is moving. It's not supposed to happen, but it has happened.
2. Leaning on a door can "pop" it out of its track or warp the track, rendering the door inoperative and possibly damaging the door and/or the track.
David
David is basically correct.
While doors are wired to prevent a single-point failure that will cause doors to open, human error or vandalism can cause an un-anticipated opening.
The real problem is that the doors are held into the lower door track by a teflon door guide. Continuous lateral pressure can distort the guide, causing the doors to stick in the track. Additionally, the door obstruction sensing system relys heavily on the proper mating of the door edge rubbers. Leaning on the doors could cause the rubbers to become mis-aligned - leading to an illuminated guard-light - and a train delay.
Is this more of a safety issue, or a reliability one?
Interesting that they use a Teflon guide. Does the T/A spec the door systems out, or is it left to the vendor's imagination to design them?
<>
I don't think the 2 are mutually exclusive. TA is fairly confident with regard to the safety of the door systems. Therefore, I think it's viewed as an issue of reliability. While I have every confidence in the door systems, I never lean on the doors. I view it as a personal safety issue.
<>
It's a combination of both. The TA has design criteria (such as single point failure prevention) that it insists upon in the design. The how is usually left to the vendor providing it meets all of the TA's criteria. The teflon door guide evolved from the older bakelite ones. That was likely an in-house innovation.
General Orders require ALL trainsets at 239th to receive 12 stickers per car as of yesterday. Did carbody and found out this morning...I don't go to the supply counter at 11:55 AM to get an earful of 'thankyouverrrrymuch it's lunchtime.' Anyone who didn't stick on the stickers got THEIR earful and had to do it. CI Peter
"Is this more of a safety issue, or a reliability one?"
I don't think the 2 are mutually exclusive. TA is fairly confident with regard to the safety of the door systems. Therefore, I think it's viewed as an issue of reliability. While I have every confidence in the door systems, I never lean on the doors. I view it as a personal safety issue.
"Does the T/A spec the door systems out, or is it left to the vendor's imagination to design them?"
It's a combination of both. The TA has design criteria (such as single point failure prevention) that it insists upon in the design. The how is usually left to the vendor providing it meets all of the TA's criteria. The teflon door guide evolved from the older bakelite ones. That was likely an in-house innovation.
God knows we don't want our rubbers misaligned...
-Hank :)
Collective "Ooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh."
Bad. Very bad.
Not as bad as being told to wear rubbers when it rains.
Yeah, from what I've seen some other subway systems have had them for a long time...
Hong Kong's metro and KCR has them...
...and both of them have had DO NOT LEAN ON DOORS stickers on the inside top of their doors for years now.
...and they never seem to work, as many of those trains are usually having people almost squeezed into 'em until the rivets pop out. (Yes, it's true! HK, like Tokyo, has "super-conductors" to push people in...Oh how glamorous that job would be.)
-J!
HK, like Tokyo, has "super-conductors" to push people in...Oh how glamorous that job would be.
It might be better than glamorous depending upon the skirt length (among various other characteristics) of the pushees.
Just better watch out for those dragon clips, they could really hit you in the face!
Wait a sec... I frequent on the 7 and since they have very old cars, the Redbirds of course, are their side doors more prone to damage?
Like Traid Deude said in another part of dis thread, the wubbas (rubber guides) might POP outta place.
Stuart, Rline86Man
Guess that answers my question. I guess people will think twice before leaning on the doors. Though, it's so hard when the 7 is crammed to the inch during rush hours...
Maybe they'll eventually come full circle and the
"PLEASE KEEP HANDS" "OFF THE DOORS"
Stickers will return on the seperate door leaves. I think those lasted from the late 40s through the early 70s...
They lasted on the LIRR's VERY early M-1 units until just a few years ago, actually. (Then the beaucracy machine kicked in, and removed those with the UGLYYYYYYY white stickers)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Yeah, I seen them on a R62a on the 1 line.(Livonia fleet). They are under the door window as you stated. I was surprised to see the signs are back.
Now these signs are being placed on the Rebirds and the R142s as well. Im kinda surprised that the Birds are getting them since they are going the way of the dinosaurs, but whatever........
And like I said, on the R(omeo)-68's on the D(elta) trains coming out of Concourse Yahrd, too. They still haven't spread to the Bee-Emm-Tee South Div. yet.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Well, a number of years ago the TA painted some R27's only to seemingly scrap them the next day, so a sticker is no big deal!
The fishies won't get to see the stickers...doors are removed. CI Peter
Do they look the same as they always have, or are they different colors, font, etc?
They're probably the same color and font as the DO NOT HOLD THE DAYUM DOORS YOU FOAMAS!!!!!! *lol* just kidding
Stuart, RLine86Man
I spotted the new "Do not lean on door" stickers on an Southbound D(elta) train at around 1245-ish on Friday (2-1-2002)...guess CI Peter's finally got 'em on dem trains....... :-D
By the way, it seemed...weird...having a sticker on the top AND bottom at the same time.
Stuart, RLine86Man
That's TrainDude territory :) CI Peter is at 180th Street.
Shawn.
I knew that...............really. :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm 239 territory...one week puts me closer to the Dude...what I will do is jump the tracks to work with the #5 crew but stay at 239. The #5 R142 will have its home at 239 until the warranties begin to expire and the vendors slowly fade away. Thanks guys. CI Peter
I had an R44 today which had the older "do not hold doors" on the top. This was pasted over the original lettering "please keep hands off the doors", in black letters individually labelled on the stainless steel panel, the letters the buffing wheel missed at M&K. Under the window glass was the new "do not lean on doors". All they need to do is paste on the hook valve cutout cock, add 14 exterior guard lights and a blue stripe. I took my very first ride on a 142 yesterday. I think a "please keep shoes off the doors" will help them tremendously.
How about: 'Please do not scratch your name into the R142 seating?' CI Peter
LOL, so if they can't scratch the windows, they resort to the seats... what will they think of next?
Comming back from work, I took the 6:07pm from Jamaica to STony Brook. We were pulling in when suddenly, the sound of air dumping was heard. The overshot the platform by what seems like 100 feet. For those who are not familar with this station, the locomotive is suppose to be stopped before the grade crossing, at the edge of the platform. The loco ended blocking the crossing with part of the first car past the end of the platform. The engineer didn't tell the crew because the first door of the first car was opened. Not a crew member standing there. Its a least a five foot drop to the ground.
Just want to know, is the engineer suppose to push a button? On the door control is a light labeled "engineer override".
Why the crew opened the door in that kind of situation, I don't know.
I've seen these off-platform door openings happen a couple times in the last few years at Medford on the Greenport line. It's certainly not a trivial error, and I would hope that LIRR management takes appropriate action when it occurs.
Hey everyone! Just running an opinion poll here....What is the busiest/crowded Subway line in your opinion?
I personally think that the entire Lexington Avenue line is pretty busy/crowded and might get the prize here.....Any other opinions?
I'm with you pal. The 4,5,6 triplets are the worst by far when it comes to overcrowding.
The E and the F lines.
Eric D. Smith
The orange D or Q in '96 after Grand Street...Many Chinatown frequenters heading out to Brooklyn.
The busiest & crowded are #1, #2, #4, #5 & Rush Hour Express #6 line & those lines are the pain in the azz while working on the stations.
DNJ
MTA-NYCT
I'd say all the IRT's, Seventh Ave, Lexington and Flushing. It's a combination of their serivicing key areas and their using narrower cars. In particular the Lex line is crowded because it's the only game in town on the Upper East Side. Of the B-division lines, I'd have to say the Queens Blvd routes.
:-) Andrew
The Lexington Ave line is the most overcrowded subway corridor on the New York City Transit system. The Lexington Ave line is so crowded supervison as of this month started issueing all No.4,5,6 T/O's and C/R's A book called "Special operating instructions on the Lexington Ave Line". I just was issued the book Monday.
The Lexington Ave Instruction book just tell the T/o's and C/R's the following.
Train Operators
- Not to Operate slower then the allowable posted speed
- Do not stop at yellow signals
- If a No.4 Express is given a local line up to stop at 138 Street when scheduled to pass it the T/O must exept the line up without hesitation.
Conductors
- try to decrease dwell time in stations by
1. Close doors when given the signal from Platform C/R's
2. Check dwell time clocks after 45 Seconds you must get those doors closed unless held by Dispatcher.
- Modified Station Announcements
- Special Anouncements
- No connections during Rush Hours
I been working on the No.4,5,6 lines since December I find theres too much pressure on the Lexington Ave Line with never ending crowds and strict enforcement of the schedule. I find door hold is bad but not as bad as the No.1,2 Lines. The No.4 Line however door holding is out of control at 161 Street and 149 Street because lack of enforcement. In Midtown on the Lex the police officers will fine you for holding doors open.
The Lexington Ave line is so crowded supervison as of this month started issueing all No.4,5,6 T/O's and C/R's A book called "Special operating instructions on the Lexington Ave Line".
One reason the Lex is crowded is that its facilities are underutilized. Some of these special operating instructions may increase its utilization from 67% to 75%.
The major key to getting close to 100% utilization is uniformity in operation. My studies indicate that the differences in how operators run their trains is one of the major reasons for such poor utilization. On a system with merges such as the Lex, trains must be within 30 seconds of their scheduled arrival times at the merge/diverge points. This is virtually impossible because the variability in stopping and starting within stations alone is on the order of 10 seconds. When one factors in the variablilty due to operations between stations (with all green or yellow for timers), it's rather obvious that the inability of the T/O's to operate at anything approximating uniformity is one of the system's major problems.
Consider the special orders issued for the Lex:
- Not to Operate slower then the allowable posted speed
I observed one particular downtown express T/O who crawled into Grand Central despite clear aspects all the way into the station. He added an additional 15 seconds to the headway on his approach alone. When the additional loading time was added, this single gentleman was resposnible for adding the magic 30 seconds and wrecking the schedule for the entire morning.
Try operating a car at 25 mph on a two lane highway that has a 50 mph speed limit. Remember, a T/O is supposed to be a professional driver not the proverbial little old lady going to church on a Sunday mornings.
- Do not stop at yellow signals
Did they also state not to stop at green signals? :-)
If everybody is on schedule and operating uniformly, the only yellow signals should be for timers. I've seen station approaches where the operator will enter the station very slowly even though the platform and its signals show only yellow aspects. One would only speed up if the signal controlling the station's exit turned from yellow to green.
- If a No.4 Express is given a local line up to stop at 138 Street when scheduled to pass it the T/O must exept the line up without hesitation.
The 138th St operation defies rational analysis. The biggest problem is the tower operation and its inability to throw switches before the trains approach. The T/O's are not blameless. I've seen an express operator reading a book, while waiting for the ball to clear. The last train had cleared more than 120 seconds earlier, so the tower was late again. The T/O did not start to move for 45 seconds until after the signal had cleared. Perhaps, the TA should have their T/O's take a speed reading course.
A big problem is the WD approach on the local track, when the switch is not clear. The variability between operators and their propensity to go at 5 mph for the entire 500' platform length adds to delays.
1. Close doors when given the signal from Platform C/R's
I can make a farily strong statistical argument that platform C/R's add about 10 seconds to dwell time. The biggest problem is the lack of communication between the platform and the train's C/R. I do see a resposnbility problem for the first dragging victim. Which conductor gave the signal to close, etc.
There are strategies to reduce dwell time. They involve closing individual doors as they become clear rather than waiting for all (or half) the doors to be clear before closing them all in unison. The present practice of watching the train's C/R avoiding eye contact with the platform C/R's doesn't cut it.
2. Check dwell time clocks after 45 Seconds you must get those doors closed unless held by Dispatcher.
Those clocks at Grand Central fairly useless. First, 30 seconds dwell time max and add more trains so that dwell time is under 30 seconds. There are better ways to keep trains on schedule. These use clocks in all the station but these are not dwell time clocks - they're headway clocks. These systems do operate at 100% capacity - 40+ tph. What do these transit operator know - they operate bigger systems than NYCT.
I find theres too much pressure on the Lexington Ave Line with never ending crowds and strict enforcement of the schedule.
Think of the pressure on the passengers by not being able to keep to a schedule. The system should be operated for their benefit - not the employees.
I assume you might find less pressure on the 42nd St Shuttle.
The No.4 Line however door holding is out of control at 161 Street and 149 Street because lack of enforcement.
I've not checked these stations in operation. I'll put it on my agenda. My own investigations on the #5 and the Lex south of 138th indicate that the door holding problem as the reason for underutilized capacity to be overstated at best.
Most of these special orders are common sense. One wonders how the rest of the system operates. There are vast accountability and metric problems in the NYCT's operations. Most enterprises use such metrics to correct problems before they become serious. NYCT management does not appear to be under the same obligation.
I don't see how every t/o can operate exactly the same as the next guy. You have the human factor here. If a train has lousy brakes, mostly because of dynamic brake inoperable in the operating car, the t/o must allow a bit more stopping distance. What is going to be next: a marker where the t/o is to shut off power and another marker where the t/o is supposed to start applying a brake? A train with a dead motor or two will also affect the TA's speed up policy, so would one slow door operator (engine) on a given train. A conductor cannot close doors individually. The rule is to close the rear section first, get indication, close the front section, get indication, then turn the key to give the t/o indication. More than a t/o being slow according to TA standards, some idiot holding a door somewhere uptown while his/her traveling companion is repetively swiping a MetroCard at the turnstile will mess the whole thing up by the time the train arrives at 125 St. Finally, and I hope I am not taking this statement out of context: "What do these transit operator know-they operate bigger systems than NYCT". Where are the bigger systems?
I don't see how every t/o can operate exactly the same as the next guy...
The Moscow system, which operates slightly more than 40 tph during peak periods and carries more passengers than the NYCT uses a headway timer at each station. There's a clock at each station that counts the seconds since the last train's departure. The operator knows how he is doing and what mini actions he should take to get into synchronization. My own obwervations lead me to believe that closing the doors too early and gaining time on one's leader is a bigger problem than running late.
A conductor cannot close doors individually.
Consider the following hypothetical question. Assume at each second at each of N doors the probability of a passenger wanting to cross the door threshold is p. There are two strategies for closing all of the N doors. The first strategy will close each door individually as soon as nobody wants to enter or exit and leave it closed. The second strategy will wait until all N doors are clear before closing them all at the same time.
Question: which strategy leads to closing all N doors in the shorter time? The answer is the first strategy.
If NYCT want to reduce dwell time it will have to institute systems (human and mechanical) which mimic the first strategy.
some idiot holding a door somewhere uptown while his/her traveling companion is repetively swiping a MetroCard at the turnstile will mess the whole thing up by the time the train arrives at 125 St.
I noticed on 2 door holding incidents on average during my rush hour observations. These observations lasted from around 7:30-9:30 at several stations along the Lex. Most of the time these door holding incidents added about 12 seconds to the dwell time. There was one incident that lasted 35 seconds. However, there were just as many incidents where the conductor was slow in closing without any assist from a passenger holding the doors.
I don't want to give the impression that operating personnel are solely responsible the poor utilization of the transit facilities. As you correctly observed, dead motors and inoperable dynamic brakes play a significant part. As Casey Stengle noted of his 1962 Mets, the TA's performance is a team effort.
Is there any rolling stock that allows a conductor to only reopen a door that hasn't fully closed yet, or that allows a door to linger open for a few more seconds if it sees someone blocking it?
Those features might really reduce dwell time and sound like they'd be technically feasible.
The only one that does it is the R 142/142A's and the new R 143's.
Casey also wondered out loud, "Can anybody here play this game?"
*lmfao* After that dismal '62 season, that's NO WONDER why he was saying that.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Perhaps the Lexington Ave. line should be staffed by the most experienced and best performing crews. Of course, this would conflict with the policy of making "picks" based entirely on seniority.
Well the Lexington Ave line has good seniority. I mean it always the first to go.
How different the TA would be if everyone was tested and ranked. CI Peter
The 4,5,AND 6 is definately not a line for "scardey cat" T/O's!
None of the lines are (ostensibly) for "scaredy-cats," but running at less than full allowable speed is not only tolerated, it seems to be encouraged in some cases. Mr. Bauman's absolutely right on that point. Although I disagree with his sentiment (posted in other threads) that the Second Avenue Subway is unnecessary, I agree wholeheartedly with his contention that better use should be made of the infrastructure that's already available.
David
That goes for Conductors as well. The Lexington Ave line is a line you need agressive T/o's, Plat C/R's, and Road C/R's to keep the service moving along. The C/R's play the game of Beat the clock and the T/O's play the game of follow the leader.
Very true about the Lex. That's one reason why Redbirds still run the #5...reliable transportation packed wall to door. CI Peter
I don't mind it as much to have a Redbird on the Eastside. As least indication comes right in on the R62's someone leaning on the door can give you a gard light.
It ain't anywhere near as much fun on the IRT as it was years ago when you played "beat the tripper" and operated a half a block behind your leader, having the trip arm from the train ahead lift BEHIND ya. :)
Last time I rode the Lex a few weeks ago it was jam packed. Man I'm gonna try to avoid it. It's a shame cause it's a fast run, but I'd rather move a little slower and be able to breathe.
On weekends and holidays is the only time the lex lines are bearable.
The IRT Lexington Ave. line IS the most crowded line in the system. At times it is almost impossible to breathe.
#3 West End Jeff
Train Operators
- Not to Operate slower then the allowable posted speed
That doesn't take a genius to figure out. The faster the trains go, the fewer delays
- Do not stop at yellow signals
Since when does one stop at a yellow signal anyway?
- If a No.4 Express is given a local line up to stop at 138 Street when scheduled to pass it the T/O must exept the line up
without hesitation.
Why do the trains skip that station anyway? If it is too hard for them to accept the line-up, just make all the trains stop there.
Conductors
- try to decrease dwell time in stations by
1. Close doors when given the signal from Platform C/R's
2. Check dwell time clocks after 45 Seconds you must get those doors closed unless held by Dispatcher.
- Modified Station Announcements
- Special Anouncements
- No connections during Rush Hours
Why not announce the connections as the train enters the station like on the R142 and R142A? Also, announce the next stop after the doors close and the train starts moving except on the expresses.
- Special Anouncements
- No connections during Rush Hours
Why not announce the connections as the train enters the station like on the R142 and R142A? Also, announce the next stop after the doors close and the train starts moving except on the expresses.
I think these are two separate directives. "No connections" means don't wait in the station for cross-platform transfers with an arriving train.
Like what's the reliabilty of the Lexington Ave. service anyway?
At the risk of waking the sleeping Bauman...
For December 2001, weekday on-time performance was as follows:
#4 - 93.4%
#5 - 92.8%
#6 - 95.2%
Systemwide - 95.9%
What criterion/methodology was used for "on-time" performance.
The PCAC noted in their report (see Appendix A) that it was possible to "improve" the 1/9 rush hour on-time performance from 63% to 93% by adopting the TA's new "Wait Assesment" methodology.
Yup...knew I'd wake the sleeping Bauman.
I only present the information I am given. I am not presented with an explanation of the information, nor will I provide one since I do not have one. If that's not good enough, so be it. If Mr. Bauman or anybody else would prefer not having the information at all, so be it as well.
David
I shouldn't have snapped like that.
The information I have says it's terminal on-time performance over a 24-hour period, which means (as far as I am aware) that it's not the controversial "wait assessment" method. I believe that the current definition of "on-time" using the terminal method is 0 to 5 minutes late and not early, and doesn't count trains that are rerouted or that don't reach their destinations for whatever reason. The information I have does not go beyond saying that it's terminal on-time performance. My informal observation of this statistic over the years shows it hasn't changed much...the percentage of trains considered on-time by this methodology has been between the mid-80s and the mid-90s for years on the Lexington Avenue routes.
David
The information I have says it's terminal on-time performance over a 24-hour period, which means (as far as I am aware) that it's not the controversial "wait assessment" method. I believe that the current definition of "on-time" using the terminal method is 0 to 5 minutes late and not early, and doesn't count trains that are rerouted or that don't reach their destinations for whatever reason.
The real problem is that neither statistic is particularly relevant to how close to operating schedule the trains should be. Trains need to arrive within 30 seconds of their scheduled times at merging/diverging points to eliminate delays with 30 tph operation. The figure is 15 seconds for 40 tph operation.
"- If a No.4 Express is given a local line up to stop at 138 Street when scheduled to pass it the T/O must exept the line up
without hesitation.
Why do the trains skip that station anyway? If it is too hard for them to accept the line-up, just make all the trains stop there."
As to why peak rush-hour '4's skip 138th, it might be to keep the track clear for '5's. If you're on an uptown '5' stopped at 138th behind an uptown '4' that just stopped there, you have to wait for the switch to clear before proceeding into the jughandle. This can complicate matters if the '5' must ALSO wait for another switch to clear if an uptown '2' has just entered 149th/Concourse lower level.
Likewise, if you're on a downtown '5', you may have to wait for a downtown '4' to clear 138th before proceeding through the jughandle.
By getting the '4' out of the way onto the center bypass track, it cuts down on delays that would ensue from the many switches the '5' must endure.
According to the track maps on this site, the switch to the express track for 138 St is south of the jug handle switch----which implies the 4 and 5 are together for a short distance north of 138, which would render your argument moot.
Admittedly, I have very limited personal experience with that complex. Are there switches between the jug handle and 149 St, or 149 and 161 that I am not aware of?
I would have to agree with you that the IRT Lexington lines are overcrowed. With basically just IRTs operating to Bronx (Except for the Concourse Line), it really makes the IRT lines overcrowded particularly the (2).
For (1) since it operates on the western edge of Bronx, it's overcrowded to a much lesser extent, becasue the area is just basically a refuge area less developed than the area east of Van Cortlandt Park.
That is why the (3) acts as a suppliment to the 7th Ave/Westside line to alleviate overcrowding in the Manhattan portion.
What about the Lexington lines, well it will be done in the forseeable future with the 2nd Av. Subway like at least 10 years from now.
Plus:
I've also heard that there are plans to extend the (N) to Bronx to alleviate the overcrowding and provide a faster link between The Bronx and Queens.
Although this isn't part of my plan or survey, but I was thinking if we use (W) as a service between Whitehall Stn and LaGuardia Airport. Is this recommended?
"I've also heard that there are plans to extend the (N) to Bronx to alleviate the overcrowding and provide a faster link between The Bronx and Queens. "
That was one of my fantasies... hahahaaaaa.
N Bwy
And I'm like............when pigs fly!!!!!!
*looks out the nearest window and sees.........nothing :-D*
Stuart, RLine86Man
I should set up another mini-poll on this,
MATT-2AV
Question above.
Hasn't this subject been done to death already?
Please read the threads before posting a message. This exact same thread was started 1/26 and is still going it's here.
It's not quite the same duiscussion. That is for the route color. This is for the route letters or numbers.
It will defnitely be letters. IF built it will be built to BMT/IND specs. They don't build IRT size anymore, unless they are going to extend an IRT line.
One route will be an extended Broadway express, presumably the (Q). It will come from Brooklyn and downtown like it does now, but it will continue past 57th and use the now-mostly-unused northern tracks of 63rd St, and after the Lexington/63rd station (and an accross-the-platform transfer to the (F)) it will turn north on 2nd Ave and continue uptown.
For the full length 2nd Ave route, who knows? Something they're not using now. Maybe the "U".
There may also be a lower 2nd Ave route since there will be tracks connecting lower 2nd Ave with the 63rd St line to/from Queens. I'm guessing this might be a new route for the "V". After all, it is better for Queens Blvd to connect with all four major BMT/IND Manhattan trunk lines than to have tow routes connecting it with 6th Ave.
:-) Andrew
If the V is rerouted via 63rd Street to 2nd Avenue, what will serve 57th Street?
The lower Second Avenue-63rd Street service (I call it the Y) should only be used in conjunction with a Queens Boulevard bypass.
The F would continue to, but the E would then have 53rd all to itself. Maybe then it would be increased. But this wouldn't help people going between 6th Av. and 53rd St. There might still have to be 2 6th Av services to Queens, and in that case, the reverse direction tracking plan (both express tracks would head the same way in the peak) will have to be implemented.
It's not quite the same duiscussion. That is for the route color. This is for the route letters or numbers.
Yes, but the color determines the groups of letters that are still available on the rollsigns. I doubt that the MTA will print up new rollsigns just to add one letter. This is of course assuming that this line will need rollsigns - it will probably be new cars with digital displays - but the option should still exist for running older trains on the line, so we're back to the color=available letters.
JR
I can see the W coming up the BMT, making a right on to 63 St then going north on 2 Ave. The V from Queens rerouted over 63 St and going south on 2 Ave after Roosevelt Island. And depending where the south station is on 2 Ave maybe Q or T.
"I can see the W coming up the BMT, making a right on to 63 St then going north on 2 Ave. The V from Queens rerouted over 63 St and going south on 2 Ave after Roosevelt Island. And depending where the south station is on 2 Ave maybe Q or T."
I sure hope not! The W has been such a great help in the Astoria area.
N Bwy
They will use letters from the Klingon Alphabet, because the whole thing is a fantasy that appears here weekly.
-Hank
I am 100% sure they'll use these:
± ¶ Ø ¿ ™
"P" - for Pretend it will be built;
"M" - for the Land of "Make Believe", where this line will run;
or
"T" - for Too Bad it wasn't built back in the days when it was feasible.
Just for a laugh, I'll pretend that CPCTC is completely serious is asking this question....
Even if construction began on January 31, 2002, it WOULDN'T be finished for MANY years. Therefore, it's silly at best to believe that Transit's decision-makers have already chosen a letter (or set of letters) for Second Avenue service, or that the service pattern has already been developed and scheduled, or that specific cars have been assigned.
It will be the letter "T" train. If the funding goes through, groundbreaking is set for 2004. It will take 8 years to build, so maybe it will be ready in time for when New York City hosts the 2012 Summer Olympics! :-) -Nick
"It will be the letter 'T' train."
Unless "Nick" is really Lawrence Reuter, it's unlikely that he's got any knowledge that even the people planning the line don't have. It might be "T" or it might not. Nobody, including the planners, knows at this point.
David
David,
I've gotten this info from someone who is an insider, so I believe it will be the "T" train. -Nick
I, too, am an insider. 'tain't necessarily so.
David
Q train will continue northward from B'way express via 63rd street to 2nd Ave.
T train will run full length of 2 Ave.
R train will run on southern portion of 2nd Ave., turning south coming from Queens, ending at Wall/Water St.
W will run from Astoria to Bay Ridge via 60th street/Montague St. tunnels, B'way local.
HOWEVER...
If line is built down Nassau Street, R will continue to Bay Ridge via Montague St. tunnel, while W will terminate at Whitehall.
Do you know this for a fact, or is this just pure speculation?
- Lyle Goldman
total speculation.
History Channel----Thursday jan.31, 2002 at 7PM EST Write up as follows : NYC SUBWAY : The people, engineering, and equipment that make New York's complex underground transit system unique. (1hr.) This show might have been shown before ? Is it a repeat, maybe. But not for many posters on this board .....
demolition.
It's "Subway, The Empire Beneath New York's Streets", produced for A&E Networks (who also have the History channel and the Biography channel) by Transit Gloria Mundi Productions (of Baltimore) in 1994.
Though it might make New York seem really lazy, I think that people movers should be installed elsewhere besides Court Square (The passageway isn't as long as some of the others I've seen, when the direct passageway to the 8th ave lines from the 7th, if the ground is flat, maybe a 2 people movers (each direction) could be installed. Also in the shuttle passageway, most of it is flat, and for the part that isn't, either make it, or don't put them there. Not only would it stop "traffic" in the passageways (slow morning person holding practically the whole city up), it would get you to where you want to go quicker (unless you're some speed walker, hehe). So SubTalk, what yall think, more people movers in the subways?
Americans in general, New Yorkers in specific, need WAY more exercise. The last thing our TAX dollars should go to fund are replacements for lazy people's legs.
Yo, go from the front of a northbound E to the shuttle and get back to me. you nearly have to walk across half of NYC.
Americans in general, New Yorkers in specific, need WAY more exercise.
Agreed. Let's pave over the Lex Local tracks and turn them into a bikeway.
Most people in NYC walk much faster than the speed that people movers
operate at.
I see them as a waste of $$$$$.
I agree. The people movas are for more......"handicapped" people than anything else.
The 33rd St passage should get one--So it can be open and solve the problem of the homeless. I'm hoping it would fit one for each direction.
I think it is.........but don't quote me on that.
Stuart, RLine86Man
That was alot of work. Good for you.
You're forgetting that with a moving walkway, a person can still walk faster than it moves, and double their speed. It also gives people the oppurtunity to be lazy.
I would like to see them installed in the passage between Times Square and the Port Authority Bus Terminal. Although to do this for people movers in both firections, the passage may have to be widened. -Nick
I would like to see them installed in the passage between Times Square and the Port Authority Bus Terminal. Although to do this for people movers in both firections, the passage may have to be widened.
One problem is that during the time in which the people mover (or, more accurately, moving sidewalk) is being installed, the capacity of the passageway would be greatly reduced. I've only been in the Queens G train passageway once, long before the people mover was installed, but if I recall correctly it was much wider than the one under 42nd Street.
The passageway in Times Square is under 41st.
The passageway in Times Square is under 41st.
You're right.
But this doesn't change the fact that the passageway's heavy use and relative narrowness means that construction of a people mover would result in chaos.
Cars 6856-60 have arrived on the property tonight.
The first of the R-142A Option Order Cars are in Yonkers! 7611-15 are at the plant as of today....
-Stef
7595 is on the way down Broadway
Much appreciated.
Alright gang, Cars 7591-95 are being assembled at 239th St Yard!
-Stef
Assembled MY BUTT! IF ur talking Bombas, we no longer have the Bomba Dancers on de floor!!!!! Now that we've discovered the 'AC Reactors' (DC inductors to filter power to the air conditioning) burning out because of hand tightened connections and have started to replace Tread Brake Units ourselves, the 'Propulsion Reactors' are shorting out to ground and we're doing that replacement too. IF you are seeing some higher numbered trainsets, they are probably coming out of 180th and we'll see them S O O N ! ! BTW...40 RottenBoids will be held for emergency service in the yahd. CI Peter
I don't think I said they were ready to enter service, just that the cars were here ok?
-Stef
R142s 6760-6756/6841-6845 were testing on the 5 today about 4 PM.
Thank You, for that report.
-Stef
They are coming out of someplace and I have seen rusty units on the track Bomba does their mods on...the trainsets never had duct tape on the external boxes so they never had a SM. CI Peter
CI Peter:
The above refers to simple assembly of newly-delivered R-142As into a finished 5-car set. From 239 they start the journey toward acceptance for revenue service.
Your response sounds revealing though. Is this one of the reasons that a bunch of stored R-142s are suddenly coming to life, after many months in limbo?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The shake up is going on again. TA wants new cars in service, is holding 40 Redbirds in reserve for the #2 line and Bombadier is going to have to move it or move OUT and take their crap back to Canada cuz Kawasaki is in the lead now. Bienevue Froggys... cutting deals for foreign business with US assembly is a poor band-aid for economic development. With the Foreign Rat Trap Economic Conference down the block from me, I'd just like to join the band and say, 'Global Crossings: Weah be mah monies?' CI Peter
For the (F) train terminating at Jamaica 179, how does the train actually turn back, by going into the tail tracks and then turn back?
Exactly.
The same is done at 205th St on the D Line.
-Stef
the R42 is the last front railfan window equipped subway car right ??.....
should have built more .....!!!
No, the R62/62A have railfan windows - not our fault they decided to enclose the cabs.
The R68/68A also have railfan windows but the TA decided to go with having those at the #2 end and have the full width end as the operating end.
yea thats right the irt 62 ..
but the 68 had a railfan window ??
wow !!
>>but the 68 had a railfan window <<
Yes, each car has 2 complete operating cabs. One is full width the other is the standard 1/3 width. For obvious reasons the full width cab is at the lead end.
lets reverse that please ...
Daily News story
Sounds like a good idea, but the article says it would relieve overcrowding on the Lexington Ave lines. How is that possible?
No, the article says the priority should be relieving the Lex, and that this line won't do it.
-Hank
Only the 2nd Ave. subway line will relieve the overcrowded Lexington Av. line.
Interesting that the accompanying map shows the '7' line turning south on 7th Ave. (presumably beneath the existing line). That would imply bypassing the existing Times Square station.
-- Ed Sachs
The routing would allow No. 7 station stops at both Grand Central and Time Square instead of stopping, say, at the Port Authority (Ninth Ave.) if the line continued across 41st St., which would allow a one-seat connection between the two train stations for the first time.
But you're right -- even with the IRT's tight turning radius, the western 200 feet or so of the Times Square station would have to be abandoned and the platform shifted east towards the track switches if the MTA does adopt this plan (or an entirely new station would have to be built under Seventh Ave. between 40-41 Sts. and 38-39th Sts.). Considering all the work they're doing right now rehabbing the station and fixing up the connections from the IRT Seventh Ave. and BMT Broadway tracks to the Flushing line platform, it seems like the MTA is fixing to throw several million dollars worth of work right down the tubes.
Maybe the idea is to terminate some trains at Times Square and others at W 34th St.
Again, though, the article said only that this was ONE of the choices being considered.
Dumb idea. If they want to have a one-seat ride between GCT and Penn Station, remember, Penn Sation is moving a block west into the Post Office Bldg. Better to turn the 7 south under 8th or 9th Avenues.
Better yet to extend it to 11th, then south. That would allow subway access to the Circle Line, Intrepid, and Passenger Ship Terminal , as well as Javits Center. Then continue one more stop past Javits to Chelsea Piers.
My pick would be going straight across 41st St., with a stop at Ninth Ave./Port Authority. The problem the MTA may see is the three Lincoln Tunnel tubes that would either force the No. 7 line to stay very deep to cross under the tubes at 11th Ave. to get to Javits Center, or the tunnel would have to rise up to one level below ground by 11th Ave., and then run over the vehicular tubes, the same way the underground Concourse line runs over the Cross Bronx Expressway.
Option 1 would be less disruptive, since they could use deep tunnel boring machines instead of cut-and-cover, but if they have any plans to put a stadium next to the Javits Center if New York gets the 2012 Olympics, Option 2 would be much better since it would conform to Parson's original IRT theory that you can get more people into and out of the subway faster the closer it is to street level (still true even in the elevator/escalator era). Plus, a 34th St. station near the surface would allow for an easier future extention of the No. 7 line south towards the WTC site, either underground along 10th Ave. and Greenwich St. or as an elevated line along 12th Ave. and West St. (and if the Metro North connection to downtown that the News article mentions is built instead, it will have to use one of those routes, so there are going to be NIMBY fights either way).
They might as well create a loop then. Runs across 41st to 11th or 12th Avenue, goes south to maybe 34th, then comes east again to 1st Ave and back north to 41st.
This would also solve the 7 train being at capacity by not using it because there would be people going to the Javits center.
<<Sation is moving a block west into the Post Office Bldg. >>>
Is it? Bloomie might thwart that plan too...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you want to get Machivellian about the whole thing, Bloomberg's support for the No. 7 line may come down entirely to real estate values, and the business people he knows saying that the 7 extension is better for new development.
The west side yards area, even with the Javits Center, remains one of the few areas of midtown Manhattan with relatively low real estate vaules. Run the No. 7 over there and develop the land around the 34th St. station into new midtown office space (or shopping or some sort of entertainment complex, if the Olympic Stadium gets built), and whoever owns and develops that land stands to gain a lot of money.
In contrast, Second Ave. is pretty much developed along most of its route. Unless the city allows the street to go more commercial than it already is, with high rise office buildings replacing the smaller apartment buildings near the subway stops, a Second Ave. subway would improve to quality of life for east side residents, but it wouldn't provide the financial jackpot for some of the city's high rollers that development of the far west side between 30th and 42nd Streets would.
This may just be me being cynical, but it is a thought to put out there (and BTW, the Daily News building, in its current location, would stand to benefit publisher/real estate developer Mort Zuckerman if the far west side gained direct subway access. Right now the News' offices are off in the relative boondocks compaired to the locations for the Times, Post and the local TV stations, and the story about the No. 7 extension to the west side was in the Daily News...)
I personally would favor the line run straight across to the Port Authority bus terminal, to increase the available subway connections there. It is the biggest and busiest bus station in the Western Hemisphere.
But I won't whine if it takes another route.
"Interesting that the accompanying map shows the '7' line turning south on 7th Ave. (presumably beneath the existing line). That would imply bypassing the existing Times Square station."
Which to me is a very stupid idea.. The best idea is to run it straight across 41st Street and than turning south on 11th Avenue or West Street (Twelve Avenue).
N Bwy
Running down 7th Ave sounds like a bad idea, and admittedly the article says it was just one of the possibilities. Much better to provide service to currently unserved areas in the west 40s.
Also, it's easier to build the line as an extension of the 7, rather than make a new set of tracks curving off the existing 7 line just east of the Times Square station. It's incredibly expensive to add a branch without disrupting daytime service on an existing line.
While I'm glad to see a Mayor pushing for subway expansion, I disagree with Bloomberg on two main points: 1) extension of the Flushing IRT should be a close second to relieving crush loads on the Lexington, and 2) the selected alignment is poorer than travelling to the west 40's and then down south to Penn or a future West Side stadium.
The proposal shown is nothing more than $3 billion to relieve a transfer. For under half that amount of money part of the Times Square Station could probably be rebuilt to make an easier, more comfortable, and more aesthetic transfer. The remainign half could be spent elsewhere in the system. Why should suburbanites get a one-seat ride when others in the five boroughs have a no-seat ride?
City residents who pay City taxes have to sardine into a cattle car to get to work. And who would Bloomberg's extension benefit? A lot of commuter railroad patrons from outside the five boroughs, that's who.
His plan certainly doesn't help Upper West Side riders get to Midtown East, as they still have to transfer. It doesn't help Upper East Side riders get to Midtown West, as they will still have one transfer. Moreover, the extension doubles up on existing ROW, leaving residents in the far West 40's still without subway access.
MATT-2AV
I disagree with Bloomberg on two main points...the selected alignment is poorer than travelling to the west 40's and then down south to Penn or a future West Side stadium.
That alignment isn't Bloomberg's choice; rather, it's the alignment that was favored by the MTA several months ago.
It is claimed that Hizzonor takes the Lex. Were this true, he'd know what a bad idea putting an extension of the Flushing ahead of the 2nd Ave subway is. And considering the amount of capital dollars available for subway expansion, sending it under 7th Ave to 34th St., and then west compounds the dumbheadedness of the idea.
The 7 is maxed out. There is no more capacity. Sending it to the Javits Center without adding additional capacity just continues the current crowding.
A 34th St. crosstown, however, is anything but a bad idea. The cost of getting such a line past Herald Square, however, would be colossal. There is also the question of which current trunk line you cut into to provide for yards/maintenence facilities (and it would probably be a direct cut into the 8th Av local tracks). 2nd Av, if it ever gets built, would be the logical candidate for a full interchange.
Hizzoner does take the Lex.
Most days he's in the office by 7 AM so he doesn't see how full it is. One day he evidently did campaign at 77th St for the Republican in the special Council election, and rode at 8 AM, along with a bunch of reporters who all turned themselves into sardines. So he knows.
The 7 is maxed out. There is no more capacity.
They currently run 30 tph. The used to run 36 tph.
If they build the new terminal incorrectly, they may reduce capacity.
Of course the TA recently spent $30 million to freeze capacity at Main St at 30 tph.
The 7 is maxed out. There is no more capacity. Sending it to the Javits Center without adding additional capacity just continues the current crowding.
According to some of the more reputable members of this board (I can't name names because I can't remember them), the 7 is currently running 30tph. However, at some time in the past the 7 ran 36 tph. There is some unused capacity, therefore. Why it's unused is beyond me.
Dan
This was precisely my response to that post. Admittedly, with no merging or crossing lines, a larger number of tph are possible than on other lines. Still, the TS terminal is only two tracks and I wonder how they could turn 34/36 tph from that end. This number of trains also assumes a perfect, problem-free rush hour -- no door holding, no police actions, no one getting sick, no trains breaking down, etc -- something that seems impossible to attain nowadays.
(This number of trains also assumes a perfect, problem-free rush hour -- no door holding, no police actions, no one getting sick, no trains breaking down, etc -- something that seems impossible to attain nowadays.)
There were some snide comments at a rail opearations forum in DC I attended about those who believe that the signal system is the sole determinant of capacity. Actually, it was pointed out, either the signals or the maximum dwell time at the slowest station on the line can be the determinant, and it is usually the latter. If you have a five minute dwell time in a station, more than 12 trains per hour is going to be hard to do, no matter how many trains the signals allow.
There were some snide comments at a rail opearations forum in DC I attended about those who believe that the signal system is the sole determinant of capacity. Actually, it was pointed out, either the signals or the maximum dwell time at the slowest station on the line can be the determinant, and it is usually the latter. If you have a five minute dwell time in a station, more than 12 trains per hour is going to be hard to do, no matter how many trains the signals allow.
Sounds like a den of under-achievers were at that forum. The formula that calculates capacity is widely understood and available. It is even published by the TRB in their "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual". Dwell time is a factor in the calulation of capacity. The example of 5 minute dwell times is a red herring. The formula for capacity would show that the maximum capacity 12 trains/hr with dwell times of 5 minutes.
Chapter 3 of the TRB's "Transit Capacity and Quality of Service Manual" is entitled "Rail Transit Capacity". It contains 110 pages. Two sentences are devoted to how an existing operation achieves 40 tph with a conventional fixed-block length system. Perhaps, if the attendees spent their time finding those two sentences they might become over-achievers.
Where can I get this book? Do you think if I wrote a letter to the TA I'd get it?
Try www.trb.org. If it's not on there, write to the address listed on the site.
David
Where can I get this book?
Go to the Download TCQSM link. Each of the files is over 1 Meg. I'd save each of the files after downloading, for future reference.
Do you think if I wrote a letter to the TA I'd get it?
You'd get something back from the TA but I don't think it would be the TCQSM.
Thanks for the info.
Thanks guys!!!
It is very interesting. I wonder if the formulas were reworked for NYCT numbers. Many of their figures are based on train lengths platform lenghts, max speeds and such that don't apply.
The section on terminals is very good but I would like to see the numbers reworked for Ditmas (double switch) and Parsons Archer (extra long distance between the terminal and the crossover) and Stillwell.
Unfortunately I really don't have the interest right now to dig into the whole thing. It really is a must read for anyone that is building the 2nd ave to avoid some of the problems that we currently carrying from the past.
> but I would like to see the numbers reworked for Ditmas
Ditmas or Ditmars?
- Lyle Goldman
Just when a consensus seemed to be forming in favor of the Second Ave subway, he goes and throws this monkey wrench into things. Probably neither one will get built now. Sigh.
And so it begins.
As I suspected, yet another fiscal crisis will scotch the Second Avenue.
Every other decade, they try to revive it, but when the city gets into financial trouble, it's the first thing on the shopping list to be crossed off.
What we need is for the city to amass enough fortitude to JUST BUILD IT, no matter how bad the economy is.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What we need is for the city to amass enough fortitude to JUST BUILD IT, no matter how bad the economy is.
Indeed building it would create jobs and help the economy out of just such problems.
I'll second that.
Wow! Someone agreed with me! Gee, thanks Ron!
What is political will? The money is currently being spent on more poltically powerful priorities. It is the will to say no to such groups. No such will exists in New York, especially not in Albany.
New lines could certainly be built. New infrastructure improvments happen all the time all over the country. I don't accept the excuses.
Extending the #7 line does not help anyone unless it's extending into New Jersey. NOW THAT'S SOMETHING I WILL SUPPORT! However, the second avenue line is still on the top of my list because of the over crowding lexington avenue line.
N Bwy
If Bloomberg wants to run the 7 west & south....why not restore the High Line to run the 7 on? Could save millions...thoughts anyone?
Where'd the portal from the subway tunnel thru to the High Line be?? Hmmmm????????? Nice try, laddie.
Stuart, RLine86Man
No problem there if the 7 was extended to 34th and 11th -- the High Line ramps up from the yard at 30th Street and the No. 7 train could do the same.
The problem would be with the people living along the line, along with those who want the line to be dedicated as a pedestrian walkway. It would be far easier to build a new el line for the No. 7 train (or Metro North) down to the WTC south of 30th St. along 12th Avenue and West Street.
True. And if they use West Street/12th Avenue, there'd be enough room for MNRR AAAAND the # 7 tracks (split the ROW into 2 sections). Huh??? How does that sound?
Only problem with a dual subway/commuter el (or dual level underground tracks a la 63rd St. down Greenwich to the WTC area) is the FRA regs say they have to be kept apart. A bi-level el would solve that, but looking at the old photos of the bi-level Ninth Ave. el tracks at Lincoln Square, the `wall' effect might be too much to avoid major NIMBY protests (they'd be there for a single level el, too, but 12th Ave./West St. is certainly wide enough to handle a one level el without it blocking anyone's afternoon sunlight on the east side of the street).
If FRA regs prohibit that kind of config, then WHY does PATH's Newark line connect with the NJ Transit/Amtrak line from NY Penna Station inside Harrison station???????? The tracks themselves don't cross each other (allowing PATH service to use the NJT/AMTRAK tracks and so on), but they're ON THE SAME ROW. I remember it clearly, as I had to take NJT to Long Branch via that ROW towards Newark Penna Station.
Stuart, RLine86Man
PATH is FRA-compliant.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Only problem with a dual subway/commuter el (or dual level underground tracks a la 63rd St. down Greenwich to the WTC area) is the FRA regs say they have to be kept apart."
Yes, but a fence between the commuter and subway lines should be sufficient. At its west end, in Oak Park, the CTA Green Line runs on the same ROW as the UP-West commuter and freight tracks, but there's a fence between the CTA and UP tracks and CTA rapid transit is not considered an FRA railroad.
Same on the Red Line in Montgomery County, where a fence seperates it from the MARTA/B&O tracks. But a four-track el line over 12th Ave. and West Street might be a little too wide to avoid the problems of getting the tracks too close to the buildings on the east side of the street, especially where the No. 7 station stops would be (I would guess some combination of 23rd, 14th, Christopher, Canal, Chambers and Liberty/WFC), while and underground line running down Greenwich or Washington streets would have to be bi-level, due to the narrowness of the streets themselves.
A bi-level Metro North/subway line beneath one of those streets from the Javits Center area to the WTC area would be the best answer, and an el down the middle of 12th Ave. and West St. would be the cheapest. I know the street is wide enough for a two track el that would stay away from the nearby buildings, but a four track el I have my doubts about and a bi-level el would raise hackles for blocking out the afternoon sun on the east side of the street.
Where'd the portal from the subway tunnel thru to the High Line be?? Hmmmm????????? Nice try, laddie.
Well, I think the northern portal is solvable. It's the southern part that's a problem.
Remember, there's only ONE MILE left of the High Line (14th to 34th), and a not-very-direct routing at that. (Goes from almost the west end of the Penn Station trackage all the way west to the West Side Highway to route around the train yards, then back in to between 10th and 11th Aves.
It's not worth it. Forget the High Line for anything except a linear park ... and a remnant of what was.
In retrospect, it was dumb to tear it down south of 14th Street. But no one was thinking of far-west-side transit back then. [sigh] I still think the true missed opportunity was not building tunnels underneath the realigned West Side Highway (Route 9A).
More better to extend the "L" from 8th to 10th, up through the middle of 14th to the high line then up to big Jake. Forget the 7, its to short and narrow. Longer and wider.
avid
correct, and the 7 doesn't have much capacity available if made more useful.
> More better . . . its to short and narrow.
You know, for an "Avid Reader" your English is not very good!
- Lyle Goldman
You know, for an "Avid Reader" your English is not very good!
How dare you insult Avid Reader's friend from England?
If you are refering to my grammer, she was Irish, not English.
Some times the fingers just can't keep up with the mind. While it's not as narrow as some, it is fast!
So try and expand yours and insert the missing words or correct the poor spelling. After doing all that, see if you got my most humble idea.
avid
I'm not sure if it was reported here or not, but one of Ghooliani's final acts of lame stupidity as mayor was to sign away the rights to the high line, and resolving to have it pulled down and (I think) give the land to neighboring land owners. This was one of the last minute deals, just like the stadium fiasco.
What the city gains from that is a big fat zero, and we lose quite a bit. Nothing beats having a lame duck mayor waste city resources to please his personal pals.
Bloomberg is apparently looking to null the deal, much as he has with the stupid, shortsighted stadium deal. Let's hope he suceeds and that a better use can be found for the high line than simply giving it away for nothing.
Below is a link to the story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-01-24/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-139140.asp
Yeap. The high line is both a threat and menace to NYC. Riiiight.
The only threat or menace was ghooliani, and I'm glad to see his candy ass go.
> Below is a link to the story
That doesn't look like a link to me. If it were a link, something would happen when I clicked on it.
- Lyle Goldman
Do you deliberately try to be annoying, or does it happen naturally?
> Do you deliberately try to be annoying, or does it happen naturally?
Naturally, I guess. How about you?
- Lyle Goldman
Oh, I do it deliberately. You see, I can therefore not be annoying if I so chose.
Copy and paste it to your browser.
That's the bad thing about a lame-duck. You find out in his last days of his term in office who his enemies really are.
some thoughts:
It sure would be nice if you could connect the Flushing Line with the Canarsie Line. Bring the 7 to 41st and 11th av, down 11th, and link up with the L somewhere down there. Unfortunately, due to the different division specs on the 2 lines, it would never ever happen. But its a nice thought anyway.
What NYC needs is an Ed Rendell for Mayor. He knows how to get things done that are for the good of the city. Just look at what he did with Philly.
We can do a bilevel tunnel with the lines sharing stations. We czsn have island platforms to minimize costs of elevators to noyl two per station .(1 from street to Mezzanine[street and mezzanine] and 1 from mezzanine paid area to platforms [mezzanine paid area plus upper platform and lower platform.]
after 14/8 a station could be built at 23rd and 34th at Javits.
(What NYC needs is an Ed Rendell for Mayor. He knows how to get things done that are for the good of the city. Just look at what he did with Philly.)
Rendell was a great Mayor, better than Rudy IMHO -- Rudy had more to work with. But I'm hoping Bloomberg will be good, and he might be.
In any event, all the decisions that matter are made in Albany, and our state government stinks.
Here's a little irony about Ed Rendell - he was born and raised in New York! How about that!
(Here's a little irony about Ed Rendell - he was born and raised in New York! How about that!)
Maybe we should try to get him back. With the way the Democrats have been locked up by a self perpetuating machine of incompentents and thieves, there isn't a decent Democratic official left in the state (although the new City Council might produce one or two -- Thank God for term limits).
How will they extend the 7 line down 7th Avenue? There's the little problem of the 1/2/3 line under 7th.
Last evening, waiting in Union Square for my Astoria-bound 'W' to arrive, I saw a '7' roll through the station on the downtown Broadway express track. Do any of you know where it could've possibly been going?
Any light shed would be fantastic.
Thanks,
-joe.
Prolly to Coney Island. The 7's only connection to the rest of the subway is at Queensboro with the N, so it has no choice but to use Broadway.
Rollsign from which fleet? Redbird?
It was a Redbird indeed.
Flushing Line trains have no direct connection to any other IRT lines and use the Coney Island Yards shop for major repairs that the Corona shop can't handle. So when that's done, the trains are moved to CI via the switch east of Queensboro Plaza and through the 60th St. tunnel down Broadway.
With a single R-33 leading the pack.
How will the R62 or R142 (whichever replaces the WF R36's) use B division trackage when the R33S cars are scrapped? These are the only IRT cars which can navigate B division trackage.
The ML R 33s/36s arrived to the 7 line with NO single on either end of the train. They came over as full 10 car trains. If these cars can come without a single unit on either end. any car can.
Any IRT car can run on B Div trackage; however, the signal system will NOT work as designed. When you take R62 cars onto B Div trackage, the car-borne tripping device is about 50' behind the place where the signal system anticipates it being, thereby allowing the train to get 50' closer to the train ahead before being tripped. This can be avoided by placing any piece of work equipment at both ends of the consist, since work trains are equipped with trips on both sides. In all likelihood, some of the R33S will be kept for work service for just this reason.
Any IRT car can run on B Div trackage; however, the signal system will NOT work as designed.
That's what I meant. The signal trip cocks on B division trackage are on the opposite side of IRT trackage. The R33S is designed to operate with the trip mechanisms on either side.
The planners have a picked a winner from the proposed alternatives. Plan C, the subway inder the Boulevard, was selected. It includes some cost-cutting measures, such as open-air stations. Fortunately, the extension of the Market-Frankford line to meet the new subway line at Roosevelt and Bustleton was spared the cost-cutters ax for the moment. Here is the whole story:
Planning Commission Chooses 'C-Prime' as the Locally Preferred Alternative
Now let's see if it will really happen...
Mark
"C-prime" sounds like it is the second-rate alternative to the third place proposal. Ouch. Hopefully lots of people will use it.
It's definitely a cheaper version of the orginal Alternative C, but I'd rather have C-prime than C-nothing. I'm really just glad they didn't decide to save money by eliminating the extension of the Market-Frankford line to meet the new subway at Bustleton Ave. Without that connection, the Frankford branch of the MFL might dry up.
Of course, all this is tentative. I fear this new line might open on the same day as New York's 2nd Avenue line...
Mark
They call a subsidy of $11-$13 per passenger 'cost effective'?
-Hank
What exactly does this "cost per new trip" mean?
How does the $11-13 figure compare with some other transit lines?
Mark
That number is the gross cost of capital and estimated operating cost--the whole encilada if you prefer. And sas to say, in some cases the similar figures for BART are double that. One of the bases of the LA Bus Riders suit against MTA was spending money on high per rider 'acquisition' suburban rail lines rather than buses for in town transit. And BTW this entire set of caclcs is the by the book FTA formulas so as to be eligible for fed $$. Maybe if more people did similar math for other modes of travel some eyes would open.
it is true that the MTA bus system was neglected Big Time ...
You could see the old run down fleet !!!
Maybe if more people did similar math for other modes of travel
some eyes would open.
I'd like to see an apples-to-apples comparison of highway-travel costs to those of mass transit. This would include the cost of the road and the cost of the car (buying/operating costs) as well as parking costs.
One absolute incomparable is that, with buses for example, the driver has to be paid, while you in your car are not being paid.
I posted something similar to what you want back in July. And to add to it, I found that in GA is $8,000 per mile per year for referance to raod maintnance costs.
Some years back, I read a figure that the actual subway fare covered a bit less than half of actual costs (presumably including debt service, but this may be wrong). $4.00 a ride, then, $8.00 a day, $40 per week, $2080 per year.
When I was living in NY, I costed out what a car would have cost me vs. what doing the subway, cabs and occasional rental cars cost. A car was considerably more expensive (the note, insurance, upkeep, gas, parking and the inevitable parking tickets). Since I am incompetent when it comes to repairing cars, it could not have been a clunker, and I would have had to pay for repairs. I figured a car would have cost me $600 a month at a minimum. That's a lot of cab rides. I came out ahead.
A couple of years back I found some figures for Baltimore's mass transit systems - they were staggering. The light rail system takes in about 30-33 percent of operating costs, the Metro subway system about 38-40 percent of operating costs, and the bus system about 50-54 percent of operating costs. From what I've read I suspect that figures are similar across the country.
I'm not sure about other systems, but the CTA is required by Illinois state law to recover at least 50% of its costs from the farebox. (I'm pretty sure this same law also applies to Metra and Pace, the CTA's other two sister agencies under the Regional Transit Authority umbrella.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
>> When I was living in NY, I costed out what a car would have cost me vs. what doing the subway, cabs and occasional rental cars cost. A car was considerably more expensive (the note, insurance, upkeep, gas, parking and the inevitable parking tickets). Since I am incompetent when it comes to repairing cars, it could not have been a clunker, and I would have had to pay for repairs. I figured a car would have cost me $600 a month at a minimum. That's a lot of cab rides. I came out ahead. <<
And today an unlimited MetroCard is only $63/month. If one could live near a subway line that would get him to work and could live without a car, the MetroCard is a tremendous bargain. The insurance alone on a car will cost more than that.
Not bad for a line that should have built 40 years ago.
Sorry, This should have read like this:
Not bad for a line that should have been built 40 years ago.
Sounds like a cool plan overall. If they can get it built before this summer, I might even consider moving to Northeast Philly. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I gave up myself, and moved out of Northeast Philadelphia last week! I'm now a trolley rider.
Mark
Before we start thinking about ribbon-cuttings, etc, there is still the issue of where in the world the funding will be found. Keep in mind this is Phila and we're still in Penna. The state will certainly not be forthcoming with dollars in hand. Also, the Alternative D, with the depressed highway, while not a big favorite of pure transit folks, did combine the depression of the center lanes with a median rapid transit line and therefore could garner financial support from both transit and highway pots.
The big problem I see with this alternate is the median station access. Roosevelt Blvd is the highest pedestrian accident corridor in Phila. The median entrances will entice even more people to walk across at least 6 lanes in many locations. With the known accident and express/local (traffic lane) difficulties on this 12-lane monstrosity, I wonder how much sense this makes. An afterthought in the study was the placement of ped underpasses to get people to the outer edges, but we also know these can be security nightmares and may dis-entice many from using the new line.
As much as I know this line is needed and I think it should be built, I'll be very surprised to see it happen (and I'm an optimist!).
These are very real concerns. As for the feds, NE Philly is represented by Robert Borski in Congress, who holds some key positions with regard to transit funding...I'm not sure what the official title is, but he could be helpful in getting the pork back to his home district.
As for pedestrian access, that is going to be a challange, now isn't it?
Mark
Yes, but our bright lights in this state are playing politics with Borski's district. For the sake of D's and R's they'd rather get the right letter in the right place than keep a proven funding-getter with lots of clout who gets things done. Borski faces a very real possibility of having a differently-focused gerrymandered district which will stretch into Montgomery County and may very well challenge his ability to get re-elected. Politics really makes me ashamed to be an American sometimes.
When rush hour ends around this time, is there a significant dropoff in the number of passengers? I've never ridden during this time, so I wouldn't know.
Yes. TPH frequency decreases dramatically and still the trains are considerably less crowded. It seems like most people are at work by 9:30.
Not on the 2/5 lines, they don't! Still the same number of people as in the morning rush...also, the 7th Av and Lexington IRT lines still seem to have some extra crowding, about as much as during rush hours...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
Agreed. I took a Southbound <6> [it was signed as an Bronx Express-Lex Local] R-142Alpha from 33rd to BB-CH, and it was still way past crowded, especially in the mid-section. And this was at 1045 hrs.
Stuart, RLine86 and 6Line33Man
I imagine quite a large number of people intentionally go to work late and leave late to get around the worst part of the rush on those lines.
Whar system are you talking about? Certainly not a "big league" subway like NYC, Chicago, Wash DC, Boston. Based on your handle you might mean MARTA, a system I have never seen.
I was thinking about NYCT, but any system will do. I have never rode MARTA at that time, so even I couldn't tell you the answer.
On the commuter trains, the first off-peak train after rush hour is generally more crowded than the last on-peak train as people who are flexible about time will choose the cheaper fare. It happens on the LIRR immediately after the AM and PM rushes, and also with the last off-peak before the PM rush.
There seems to be a signifigant dropoff, but on most main lines, you'll still have trouble getting a seat. This is especially true of lines that don't have very good service. (The 2 is the worst, IMHO). Last month, I came back from WWF RAW at Madison Square Garden at 11:30PM, and the 2 train was STILL pretty full. Everyone had a seat, but almost every seat had a butt in it! My friend Eugene said he used to come home from the Clark Street Station in Brooklyn on the 2 at 2:00AM, and couldn't get a seat! I firmly believe NYC could not survive without 24 hour subway service, as other cities do. Does Tokyo have 24/7 service? I would assume so. Subways still rule! :D
Was in Dallas last weekend for a weekend getaway and decided to ride the DART red line from downtown to the southern terminus and back. It was my first ride on a DART train and I was surprised how smooth the ride was. I felt like I was on a bus and the inside of the cars looked very bus like.
The confusing thing was the fare system. We got on at Union Station and each bought a $1 pass from the vending maching trackside. There is also a $2 premium pass but I couldn't figure out the difference so we got the cheaper $1 tickets. The confusing thing was not only which fare to pay but what to do with the ticket once purchased. Noone on the train asked for our tickets and I didn't see where to insert it onboard. Do they rely on the honor system? I'm confused. Can anyone explain for me about the fare structure and what to do with the tickets once onbuard the trains? Thanks
Hello. I live in the Dallas area. The $2 fare is essentially a round trip ticket while the $1 fare is for one-way. Yes, DART relies on the honor system. A transit cop is usually on-board to check passengers tickets. I always had my tickets checked so your experience must have been an anomaly.
You can check the fares at http://www.dart.org
I agree somewhat with the comment about feeling like a bus. Before light rail DART was only a bus system. There was no history about running a rail system.
There were a lot of NIMBYs when the system was being proposed during the late 80's. Now the surrounding communities all want a piece of the DART light rail action since it has been more popular than what DART anticipated. Real estate people are also cashing in.
Jose
Ain't it wonderful?
I rode DART several years ago, and I thought the light rail system was wonderful. I think it was the first modern LRV I ever rode. I also rode the Trinity Express, way back before they started running push-pull trains with double-decker coaches.
I've also driven in Dallas and hated just about every minute of it. It's really good to see tranist catch on so well in such an expressway-dominated metro area.
Mark
The Dallas light rail system benefits from the presence of alleys in the downtown area, which allowed DART to route it's main east-west line through the area down one of those alleys instead of along a regular street, which keeps the cars and light rail pretty much out of each other's hair.
My uncle has some real estate property on Mockingbird Lane near the DART stop on the Central Expressway, and he's said the property values have gone up sharply (as have the property taxes) since the line went in (Central Expressway being the LIE of the Southwest in terms of both age and ongoing construction projects).
The Dallas-Fort Worth area also recently instituted a commuter rail line in-between the two cities that hooks up with DART at Union Station. Even in the land of the car, pickup and SUV, peoples' tolerence level for traffic jams only goes so far...
My apologies for double posting. I meant to change the header on this response to Douce Man's post in "Name Change." I'm repeating this here since it may be of interest to a number of people.
--------------------
The station now known as Prospect Park on the Brighton Line was called that right back to the opening of the line.
However, I have references to some variants. In the early years it was sometimes referred to as "Prospect Park, Willink Entrance" or variations of that to indicate where in Prospect Park--this is where the Willink Mansion once stood.
I have a contemporay reference (c.1908-16) to the station being referred to as Malbone Street in the context of the rebuilding work that was to be done. But other references of the same period say Prospect Park. I can say with certainty that the station itself was not changed from Malbone Street to Prospect Park because of the wreck, or the renaming of Malbone Street to Empire Blvd.
Are you using any particular reference in saying the station was Malbone Street?
Prospect Park station and the connection under Malbone St. was a result of the connection between the subway from Dekalb Av. to the existing El line which had already been upgraded to subway standards. The original el route used the Franklin Shuttle r-o-w. Did some other station name exist at or near that site back in the el days?
Consumers Park Station was a little north of Prospect Park near Montgomery St. You can still see the location, if you know what to look for. This station name was apparently changed to Botanic Garden by 1924 before being replaced by the current Botanic Garden in 1928.
The line at Prospect Park was more or less the original steam right-of-way when the work was done to connect to the Broadway-4th Avenue Subway 1918-1920, though it was electrified and used el trains.
I was stuck on an N train this morning at 36th avenue for about 15 minutes, and then at 39th for another 7-8 mins. They said a train ahead was BIE...anyone know what happened? This was around 8:15 am...
I was on a later train that had pretty much the same sinario. it was maybe a half hour later (?). service was still backed up to 36th av.
Please tell me that someone was smart enough to at least send some trains down the express tracks during that stretch in the AM
=)
I think the train was stuck between QBP and Lex, so there really was nothing to do but wait. My friend was stuck in the tunnel for a half hour.
Funny at Kings Hwy on the Q they were holding Diamond Q's via holding light because of a Q at Newkirk with door problems at around the same time.
Does anyone out there heard of a possible extension of the SIRT pass St. George's Terminal? Or possible light rail along the West Shore Expressway? I'm trying to set a friend straight about this one....
SIRT already has been extended past St. George, so to speak. A new stop at the SI Yankees baseball stadium opened last spring.
You think the SIRT means to retake the North Shore 1000 feet every couple of years?
Hey, it's faster than a glacier, and much faster than the Second Avenue Subway. ;-)
Next extension should be that bus terminal on the north shore area.
You mean Port Richmond? It wouldn't surprise me to discover that the entire viaduct and every bridge on the line would need a major rehab. It's washed out near Snug Harbor, and a new seawall will need building. On the other hand, when the new park was created along the shoreline with the stadium project, they left enough space for the ROW to be of use. Our BP says restoration of passenger service to the line is a priority of his administration.
-Hank
The Prt Authority has been in discussions and has held public hearings regarding both LRV-based and freight rail services on a rebuilt North Shore line. The Staten Island local papers carried the story, but not other NY papers. There has been sufficient population growth to warrant it. The 5.2 mile ROW is owned by New York City.
I have written to MTA asking what its position is on the issue.
The thing is that SOME of that ROW has been built over by houses in recent years, in the city's attempt to reclaim that ROW as usuable and developable land.
Stuart, RLine86Man
In an article published earlier this week, the new head of the MTA admitted knowingnothing of the North Shore line and the desire to bring it back into service.
Maybe he should LOOK at his track maps every so often, and the news about transit every so often!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86 and NorthShoreSIRTMan
He's a she (Katherine Lapp), she's the Executive Director and not the Chair (and therefore not the head of the agency), the North Shore Line does not belong to the MTA, and the Staten Island Advance (from whence this item came) is known for casting a negative light on anything having to do with outsiders' interactions with Staten Islanders.
David
Good thing I mailed MTA a printout of the Staten Island news article!
There's some gossip about reinstating some kind of North Shore service, probably LR than quasi-commuter RR (like the SIRT is now)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Use converted school busses. Its cheap and it works. I've seen this somewhere on a rurul NY state line right before it closed in a book.
Nope the converted school bus is owned by the TA, they should mass produce it. Come on it was full on that fantrip Farewell to the Redbird!!! Think how it would work on S.I.!!!!
Insane local soccer moms would still pass it on the right.
-Hank
Why not just carry people in dump trucks? I'm sure that's even cheaper.
UGH?! Do you know how UNSANITARY those things are!!!!!!!!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
UGH?! Do you know how UNSANITARY those things are!!!!!!!!!!
School busses? sure, but that doesn't stop people from building and using them to transport children to cerebral laundromat school.
Nooooooooooooooo.....dump trucks!!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
Though I repost this under a new heading:
Comming back from work, I took the 6:07pm from Jamaica to STony Brook. We were pulling in when suddenly, the sound of air dumping was heard. The overshot the platform by what seems like 100 feet. For those who are not familar with this station, the locomotive is suppose to be stopped before the grade crossing, at the edge of
the platform. The loco ended blocking the crossing with part of the first car past the end of the platform. The engineer didn't tell the crew because the first door of the
first car was opened. Not a crew member standing there. Its a least a five foot drop to the ground.
Just want to know, is the engineer suppose to push a button? On the door control is a light labeled "engineer override".
Why the crew opened the door in that kind of situation, I don't know.
Are there many such situations? Many passengers saw what happened and wondered the same thing.
I was on the same train a month ago and it overshot at Greenlawn. Doors didn't open though.
I was on a MNRR New Haven train that overran by a half car-length last month. The engineer just gave one long buzz (and over the PA said, "conductor stand-by on the doors"), then backed up. He gave two short, and the doors opened. As I was at the head-end, I could tell that he did not call for permission to back up.
should he have called for permission to back up though? i could see if it was a longer distance, but a few dozen feet at a station? )assuming there was no train behind it due anytime soon). i wonder if and what the policy on that is?
I strongly suspect that many of the overruns on our commuter railroads go un-reported. The crews seem to have much more autonomy than subway crews.
I was on an eastbound LIRR to Babylon that blew Lynbrook by 5 full car lengths last month.
CG
WOW! Half a train?! Geez...don't these LIRR T/O's know how to brake ahead of time???????
Stuart, RLine86Man
Not all Babylon trains stop at Lynbrook. The engineer must have just spaced out and forgotten which run he was doing until the last moment. It was a very sudden stop with 5 cars of a 10 car train off the front end of a 12-car platform.
CG
When I take the Baby-lawn Branch to Baby-lawn for Bay Shore or Mastic-Shirley, it's usually an express with a stop in Freeport only.........so....
Stuart, RLine86Man
I like the express runs to and from Iraq.
*lmfao* I'd wonder how much it would be to there and back...and what "fare zone" it'd be too [probably 1,014 or something] *lmao*
Stuart, RLine86Man
*lmfao* I'd wonder how much it would be to there and back...and what "fare zone" it'd be too [probably 1,014 or something] *lmao*
lmfao and lmao...haha that a new one.don't say it out loud........haha...
lmfao -> laughing my *beep* arse off
and everyone knows what lmao means.....
Stuart, RLine86 and LIRRtoIRAQMan *lmao*
Whenever I ride LIRR, I've never had a problem like that before....never. Could be because I'm in the head car alongside the T/O (They always know I'm there, since I get on at Jamaica, and they're talking to their budddddies there before departure.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hell I believe the Babylon station can accomodate up to 14 car M1 electrics. I know they can handle at least 12 cars. Thats usually the fisrt stop on the Montauk Branch.
Frank D
Sometimes it is.............other times trains come in via the Main Line to Montauk Branch.
Stuart, RLine86 and Mastic-ShirleyMan
The major issue of overrunning the station and backing up is whether there's a signal at the end of the platform. If the signal is clear and the train overruns the platform causing the signal to go to stop, backing up won't reset the signal to clear. It will stay red until the block clears. In this situation, the train will have to crawl at restricted speed if the signal went to "stop and proceed." If it's stop, the crew will have to ask for permission (Rule 241) by the stop signal.
I'm sure the situation is different on MNRR. Somebody will have to fill in the blanks but I think most of the wayside signals are gone and the train operates on cab signals.
Michael
LIRR Engineer is supposed to hold down the door override so the Conductor can't open the door. Then there are the various methods around it from putting someone in front of the door to backing up.
As M4 says it depends on how the track is signaled and how far a backup move is needed.
On the SIR they just backup (sometimes before stopping hehe).
Good afternoon.
I'm currently working on a small-press publication ('HARK!') in its first issue.
My feature article will be written regarding the NYC subway system and its workers -- their stories, outlook, and ideas. If you, personally, are or have been a train conductor or essentially any other employee of the MTA working within the subway system, I would be extremely interested to get in contact with you.
The publication is a one-person endeavor and is written/published solely for hobby reasons -- it will be printed in a small quantity and distributed for free. If you decide to contribute and wish to remain either anonymous or alias'ed in the publication, I will respect your wishes. In addition, for contributing, you will receive the final printed issue upon completion.
If you are interested, please get in contact with me via email (yser@humpin.org) -- further interviews may be conducted by email or phone, depending on schedule and mutual convenience.
With help, this feature could be a very welcome composite of views and recollection.
Thanks.
-joe.
yser@humpin.org
Well, I finally got to ride one of the new MARTA trains last weekend all the way from Airport to College Park Station. Question: How many are actually in service? I've only seen the one but thought they were buying several. Are they having problems with them or are just a few in service.
So far I have seen 2-3 on the north/south line... thats all i ride on a daily basis... robfromatlanta rides both lines..
the trains are nice but i never understand why they dont look at totally redesigning the car, instead of just changingt the colors...
Yeah, maybe they should have made a totally diffrent look, but the new look is still nice. ANYTHING is better than the old cars, with the crappy, smelly carpet, and 70s colors.
All the way from the aiprort to College Park? That's just one stop. I guess the airport lots were full, huh?
The new Bredas have been in regular service for close to a year. The vast majority of them are on the east-west line. I maybe seen 2 or 3 on the north-south. I've seen them numbered up to 636, so I'm guessing at least 36 of them are in service. The cars came into service rather quickly, the first set started testing only in Nov 2000, and now they have in service since at least the summer. How long has Boston had their Bredas? Three years and still no regular service.
I was just loooking for MARC's website recently, and was surprised to find out that they had changed their name all together.
MARC (whatever that meant...I never found out) to MTA (not surprised...) [MARYLAND TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY]
Stuart, RLine86Man
I thought that MARC was specifically the commuter rail operation and MTA was agency that includes not only MARC but Baltimore's bus, light rail, and subway operations.
Mark
At one time, MARC stood for Maryland Rail Commuter. It was an independent agency of the State of Maryland. I don't know when, it was swallowed up into the MTA (Mass Transit Administration) which was just renamed Maryland Transit Administration.
The MTA is responsible for MARC and Baltimore's light rail, subway, and bus operations.
Michael
Just curious...I'm not from, nor travel through(other than Amtrak), Deleware, and was wondering is it possible to travel from NYC to DC by "commuter" rail? It seems there is a gap from Perryville on the MTA's MARC to Wilmington on SEPTA(R1 is it?).
A_west
Yep, Perryville is a part-time, peak only service station.
MARC PENN line schedule
Here a trusty map
Wow, I didn't know MARC went all the way to Martinsbrg WVA.
The state of W. Virginia pays a subsidy to the State of MD to run the service from Martinsburg. The trains deadhead from Brunswick, MD to Martinsburg, a distance of 25 miles to make the revenue trip in the a.m.
There is talk of MARC extending service to Wilmington. Presumably, the state of Delaware would cover part of the cost.
Michael
The gap is Perryville, MD to Newark, DE, which is on the R2. R1 goes to the airport. Also, MARC doesn't run weekends. Keep in mind, it would be 4 trains if you go NJT/SEPTA/MARC (if it were even possible) so is it really worth doing it from a practical standpoint?
Not practical, but perhaps interesting, and economical. Moot point though as you confirmed my suspicions.
I was thinking of someone who travels between point A and B, not railfans. Of course it is interesting for us.
That said, it would be nice to have a cheap, two-seat ride from Philly to Washington via SEPTA/MARC (similar to the SEPTA/NJT connection at Trenton), as opposed to shelling out the bucks for Amtrak.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Also, the R2 only goes to Newark on Monday thru Friday and goes no further than Marcus Hook (on the PA/DE state line) on Sunday. So on weekends, you have a larger gap, especially on Sundays.
But for that gap in Cecil County, Maryland, one could use transit all the way from DC to Boston. It's been a dream of mine to make that trip someday. To cover the gap I considered taking a bicycle to ride the 10-20 or so miles separating Perryville, MD from Newark, DE.
As for the upper reaches of the trek, I planned on taking LIRR to Montauk, catching a ferry to Providence, and then MBTA into Boston's South Station.
One of these days...
Mark
But for that gap in Cecil County, Maryland, one could use transit all the way from DC to Boston. It's been a dream of mine to make that trip someday. To cover the gap I considered taking a bicycle to ride the 10-20 or so miles separating Perryville, MD from Newark, DE.
As for the upper reaches of the trek, I planned on taking LIRR to Montauk, catching a ferry to Providence, and then MBTA into Boston's South Station.
Using transit to Boston unfortunately isn't possible in most of the year. You'd have to get from Montauk to Providence via Block Island as there's no direct ferry connection. The Montauk-Block Island ferry operates only during summers, and I'm pretty sure that's true for the Block Island-Providence ferry as well.
If it's any consolation, you wouldn't have to end the southern leg of the transit trip in Washington. You could take VRE about 50 miles further south to Fredricksburg, Virginia.
Yeah, I planned to start in Fredericksburg, just to make the trip as long as possible. As for the ferry, I'd definitely do this trip in the summer time, not only because of the ferry, but to take advantage of the long daylight hours and to avoid a Boston winter. And if I have to spend a day on block island waiting for a ferry connection, I can think of worse places to pass the time.
Mark
...but nobody in New York may get to see it.
The Associated Press is running a long story for Sunday newspapers on Bob Diamond's efforts to restore trolley service in Brooklyn. Since all of the New York papers are AP members, any of them can use the story (and the three photos that will go with it). But usually, none of the papers like to take local AP copy if they can help it, so you may have to look elsewhere for it.
If I post the whole thing, I'll get a whuppin', but here's the first few paragraphs:
By LUKAS I. ALPERT
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - Since disappearing from city streets nearly 50 years ago, the trolley car was relegated to mere speed bump status in the city's mass transit history.
But the rumbling trolley might make a comeback in the borough where it made its New York debut: Brooklyn.
Bob Diamond and a nonprofit group of about 20 volunteer electricians, welders and construction experts at the Brooklyn Historic Railway Association are trying to make it happen. They have spent the last seven years stretching a light-rail line 1.7 miles from the southern tip of the Red Hook peninsula to downtown Brooklyn.
The hope is to finally connect the underdeveloped and transit-starved spit of land to the seven downtown subway lines -- and to give tourists a reason to visit the oft-ignored area.
"The trolley would become a cross between a tourist attraction and a mass transit route," said Diamond, a transit historian and president of the association.
But financing for the project recently hit a stumbling block. The type of grant the BHRA receives requires sponsorship from a local government agency.
Up until now, that has come from the city Department of Transportation, but a dispute about a clause in the grant provision has caused the city agency to withdraw that sponsorship, leaving the future of the project up in the air.
***
Anyway, check the Sunday papers to see if any of the locals bothers to pick it up.
It seems from what I've been hearing the some conductors wont speak a word saying World Trade Center since it brings up too many memories, and it seems that the E train has become a very emotional ride. Other conductors say it as if it was normal, and it still exisited.
So should conductors stop announcing the last stop as World Trade Center, or let the conductors make the choice?
I say keep on announcing it. Show that terrorist can damage buildings but they can't put a dent in our hearts. In our hearts, it still exists.
Chamber St. World Trade Center is what I would say.
I agree with howardr142. Keep announcing it as Chambers ST. World Trade Center.
Charlie "Chud" Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
Since there will almost certainly be some sort of memorial there in the future, how about "Chambers St. - WTC Memorial" or something like that?
I am sure that even the name conjures up some pretty horrendous thoughts for some people. Since the facility on the other side of West St. is coming back to life, perhaps "CHAMBERS ST. - WORLD FINANCIAL CENTER" or since the station is the deepest penetration of the IND into Lower Manhattan, simply "CHAMBERS ST. - FINANCIAL DISTRICT" would be appropriate. In any event the important thing is to keep the city moving and to avoid any more hurt than necessary.
I'd say that the MTA might come up with some protocol stating that they want it said one way, and that would be what they expect their C/R's to say. (Hell, they've already curbed all of the rest of what a C/R may and may not say...who's to say they won't do the same with THIS?!)
Stuart, RLine86 and ELineWTC(r.i.p. 09/11/01)Man
*R-143 voice saying:* "This is a...World Trade Center bound "E" train. The next stop is: World Trade Center.""Stand clear of the closing doors, pleease."
AP report the other day indicating that the name of the WTC stop will be changed. Didn't say what, didn't say when
*R-143 voice saying:* "This is a...World Trade Center bound "E" train. The next stop is: World Trade Center.""Stand clear of the closing doors, pleease."
Considering R-142s still announce a transfer to the 1/9 and connection to PATH at Park Place...
HA!
Maybe Peter can answer THIS question for $1,000,000:
WHEN ARE THESE R-142's and 142Alphas GOING TO GET REPROGRAMMED [and their strip maps updated] SO THEY ANNOUNCE THE NEW AND CORRECT TRANSFER INFO????????
Stuart, RLine86Man
The horse is dead. Beating it more won't help things.
In other words, we've already been talking about this for days. Why add yet another thread?
David
For now I would say "World Trade Center" because that is the name of the terminal.
However, at some point, they need to let go of it and, unless their is a new complex at the site called World Trade Center, they should change the annoucnement to reflect the new name or to say simply "Chambers Street."
I still think of the station as Hudson Terminal, because that is what I grew up with. But Hudson Terminal is gone and now so is the World Trade Center.
If you didn't live through it, you can't imagine the grief in this country when President Kennedy was assassinated. I and many others were shocked that Jackie Kennedy would no longer be the first lady or living in the White House. I know that must sound incredibly stupid now but this is how our world was torn apart then. The depth of the grief over Kennedy lasted for a year or more. Then someone published a book called "Kennedy Without Tears" which was supposed to examine Kennedy as a human and not an icon. I never read the book and have no idea without it was any good, but I recall that its publication amrked a turning point in which people began to absorb Kennedy as a real person and were able to move on.
For now I would say "World Trade Center" because that is the name of the terminal.
However, at some point, they need to let go of it and, unless their is a new complex at the site called World Trade Center, they should change the annoucnement to reflect the new name or to say simply "Chambers Street."
I'd call it Vesey Street, to avoid confusion with the A and C station.
For now, the name of the station is Chambers St./World Trade Center. Until the TA comes out with a bulletin or memorandum to employees stating otherwise, all announcements should be: "Chambers St./World Trade Center."
Actually, all they need to do is append one word=="World Trade Center Station."
This is a little bit hypothetical.......but are welded rails, such as used on the Brighton ROW (from approx. Avenue H[otel] to Emmons Avenue) and on the [I believe] entire stretch of the SIRT, any stronger than typical bolted together rail. And is it any more of a pain in the arse (especially with the aforementioned ROW) when it comes to taking that welded rail and track ties apart? (for the Brighton ROW, mainly for those damned Avenue overpasses that have to be shored up every few years.)
Stuart, RLine86 and [former] D/QLineSheepsheadBayMan
The welded joint, if done properly, is as strong as the rail
itself. CWR cuts down on the number of "broken rail" conditions.
Most "broken rails" are in fact pull-apart joints or head fracture
at the joint from pounding. There are still joints in CWR, but
they are several hundred feet apart as opposed to 39'.
Thankfully, most track maintenance operations do not require removing
the rail. Tie changing, surfacing, tamping, etc. are all performed
with the rails in place. The only time the rails are removed is
during rail renewal. Yes, it is a bit more unwieldy to handle a
long length of continuous rail, but that's what big machines are for.
If you were to have a broken rail in CWR territory, rather than
replace the entire string, a section would be cropped out using a
portable rail saw, then a replacement length of rail would be
dropped in, holes drilled and a traditional joint installed.
If you were to have a broken rail in CWR territory, rather than replace the entire string, a section would be cropped out using a portable rail saw, then a replacement length of rail would be dropped in, holes drilled and a traditional joint installed.
Depends. I've watched crews repair CWR on NS, CSX, UP, and BNSF - they cut out a section as you described, but then they weld the new section in. Only on Conrail have I ever seen the new section bolted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not sure if the TA has the portable Thermit kit.
Thermit good...open bank vault!!! Money money. I wonder if the TA system has any truly continous welded rail....track zones have to have open sections and most of the old trackage probably cannot withstand the expantion/contraction. I think a few short curve sections HAD welded/ground rail for noise control but grease pumps make for even quieter flanges. CI Peter
Some segments of the Queens Blvd. line still have non-welded rail. Ususally, but not always on curved sections. The curves tend to wear faster.
I must say the welded sections (400 ft Per) are quieter and seem to be smoother with less side-sway.
One would think, with more welded rail, greater speed could be safely approached. That is not the case.
I beleive, S.I. is the most weled rail line. Does anyone know for sure? Is the Rockaway Viaduct all welded? I am allowing for signal sections of course.
Slightly off the rail, are any cement ties being used any were in the subway system?
There are a few locations were NO ties are used. I beleive parts of the 63rd St tunnel and the concret viaduct for the "J" train as it emerges from the tunnel after leaving Sutphin Blvd. Station and rises to run above Jamaica Ave.
The LIRR used direct rail to concret bed in the area around Lindehurst, et al ...
avid
The rails that were installed in the western end of the 63rd Street connector had to be repaired in '99 due to abnormal wear 'n' tear. And the J grade seperation approaching the Jamaica extension and in that extension IS non-tie trackage.
Staten Island's SIRT, AFAIK, IS the most CWR in the MTA NON-commuter railroad system (NYCT and SIR being those that aren't commuter railroads).
No cement ties are known to be in use in the NYCT system. And the Rockaway line all the way from the turnoff of the "A" mainline to Mott Avenue (and Rockaway Park on the other end) is NOT CWR, but traditional bolted rail.
As for observations on CWR being quieter, I'd have to agree. It is supposed to be quieter...that's one of the purposes of it, other than preventing a large amounts of broken rails.
*puts in his two cents, and while no one's looking, takes one cent back.*
Stuart, RLine86Man
Abnormal wear! That means more than had been estimated. Any explaination what caused IT?
Is that possible the reason why they returned to ties in the connector portion of the 63d St tunnel?
I crave the day the entire dash between Roosevelt Ave and at least 36th st. is welded. Those joints cause a lot of noise and omnidirectional movement.
I remember the first "welded rail" in the system. It was the dash between W4th and 34th Sts on the 6th ave express. The rails were welded, two 39 ft sections and a joint. No sections were longer then 78ft. It was quieter and smoother, but could not compare with the 400ft sections out there now.
Not counting S.I., where is the most welded line in the system now? Express or local tracks? Longest stretch? Including switches!
avid
I believe.......Brighton is the longest....but I'll defer to someone with a concrete (forgive the pun) answer on that.
Yes, that IS the reason why they went to the type II ties in the 63rd St. Connector. And it was caused by excessive speeding on the VERY steep curve (it's been known to literally tilt the car's cabin to around 45 degrees! If only I had a beam level with me while riding that R-40SLANT thru the tunnel going southbound!!) on the approach to the Lex/63rd. Street station. Also might have been caused by potential problems with concrete cracking due to water leak problems that existed at the time under the East River portion of the tunnel.
Also, if you've been in the front of (at the time) a R-40SLANT :-D in the tunnel east of Lex Avenue, you SEE the bellmouths for the provisions to the 2nd Avenue Subway.
Stuart, RLine86Man
"Direct fixation" was all the rage in the 1970s. Look at BART.
Since concrete has very little resiliency, and there is no
wood tie, the system depends on rubber pads under the rails.
Unfortunately the rubber degrades over time as does the concrete,
especially the shoddy concrete in the 63St tube, and having standing
water doesn't help matters. Direct fixation is probably the
noisiest type of track construction. It doesn't look like the
TA will be using it again soon. Type II-M is the in thing now.
I'm not the expert in rail tech...I had seen samples of LIRR with Pandrol Clips/nylon basing/concrete ties used for new trackage...but with 740+ miles in the subway...ain't gonna happen overnight. Problem is in replacing the ties, especially on steel elevated structures. Redbirds run pretty smooth up North on the #2 line but the GT curves at 149th are probably eating up the brakes on my R142s. I'm not holding my breath about a REALLY permanent fix truckwise. CI Peter
Your talking concrete ties. That's a replacement for traditional
wood cross ties in a ballasted track construction. The good
news is that concrete ties will last for 50 years. The bad news
is that they are more sensitive to ballast, sub-ballast, invert
and drainage problems. A lot of water hanging around the ties
all the time, especially freeze-thaw cycles, or poor vertical
support, means cracked ties. You can't really spot-change concrete
ties because they weigh over 500 pounds. I don't think you'll
ever see concrete ties in NYCT.
Or R142 AdTranz trucks that'll go through four SMs without something major. CI Peter
The TTC have had direct fixation track in the tunnels except where there are switches, all but one station, and for a good stretch out of doors between Yorkdale and Wilson. This includes the original part Yonge line which had direct fixation track right from 1954 and we haven't had any trouble with it despite some of it being subjected to 36 years of being pounded on by very heavy Gloucster cars. So, it can be made to work although I have to agree that it's very noisy especially on tight turns - even more so back in the day of Gloucsters in summer with all the windows down...
-Robert King
Toronto is a fairly modern system. How is the drainage?
The drainage is good enough that track flooding is very very rare. I think it's only happened once so far. The one place where there is direct fixation track that's deteriorating is in the Bay St. tunnel for Harbourfront and Spadina streetcars. The bottom of tunnel itself is below the water level of lake Ontario and the tunnel wasn't waterproofed well at all, including the concrete roadbed, so there has been a constant water seepage problem ever since it opened 12 years ago. Here, the concrete around the track attachments is visibly crumbling in places so... The problems with direct fixation track seem to have more to do with the concrete constantly having standing/seeping water problems and not with vehicle weight as one might suspect because any subway car will tip the scales on a CLRV.
-Robert King
Exactly. If kept dry, direct fixation is wonderful. I should
take a few digital pix of some of the amazing water conditions
in the NYCT tunnels.
The 2nd Avenue subway, with the exception of the sections already constructed, might use Type II-M(ike) construction, as well as the rebuilt lower 7th Avenue/Varick/Greenwich Street IRT [(1)/(9)]
Stuart, RLine86Man
i could never figure out why nyc by now is not all welded rail ...
hmmmmm....
mybe train dude can bring me up to speed on this ...
Because Type II track is harder to convert to CWR...and the fact that most of it is constantly in use or the services that DO use it have to be diverted to do the upgrade. That's why the TA's been slow in replacing IRT underground trackage. (I haven't seen much of BMT/IND trackage changes...)
Stuart, RLine86Man
Why would Type II track (concrete with wood ties) be any harder to convert to Continuous Welded Rail than ballasted track?
David
i could never figure out why nyc by now is not all welded rail ...
hmmmmm....
maybe train dude can bring me up to speed on this ...
Losing the War on scratchitti
Now they're talking about a new process:
"It involves a "linear flame" fueled by propane and oxygen to melt a window enough to make scratches disappear and restore the smoothness of the glass"I think the TA should consider investing in their own glass recycling plant so they could simply reuse their own glass without having to keep buying anew. They should also see if they could find some substance that would fill in the scratch marks, making them invisible. Water sometimes even does this, but when it dries, they reappear.
Can't recycle the glass as it is because it is Laminated Safety Glass. Just got into a tizzy with a Dep Sup today about cracks versus wording. The TA policy is to replace ALL glass with dirty words or anti Semitic remarks. There are so many scratch marks and each one has to be followed to the edge to check for cracks and it so time consuming...you're Graced when none are cracked but now you have to check for wording and initials too. CI Peter
I remember when they were doing rehab at Queensboro Plaza a couple of years ago - there was some kind of graffiti - it said "How to get rich - sell windows to the TA"...how true that statement is.
It's a really said but true statement. You can add: 'and make even more with inferior glass.' The glass for RotBoids doesn't fit the frame correctly sometimes and it may crack during installation in the frame or when you place the unit back. Trick is to do it gently during inspection...if it doesn't crack it'll be scratchittied promptly. The Dep Sup was trying to figure out whether 'DEMO' was something offensive...I knew what to say thanks to the crew on SubTalk. CI Peter
There must be a way to recycle laminated glass. Since it's mixed together and would be recycled back into the same product (I'm not talking about throwing it in with the rest of the recycled glass), it should be doable. Perhaps the plasic would be vaporized away or something. Of they can recycle all of those colored bottles, this should be possible.
Window glass is unwanted in the recycling process to begin with. It is of a different mix than bottle glass. The glue for laminating makes it less valuable than Kraft paper boxes. CI Peter
It still costs too much to keep replacing.
I know it's different from bottle glass, but what I was saying was that since bottle glass can hve such impurities as coloring and can still be recycled, then laminated window glass should be as well.
Bottle glass even if colored is far more valuable that any window glass, including commercial 1/4+ inch thickness plate. No recycling center will accept window glass, especially laminated stock. Glass is a mixture and not a chemical compound...the expense of changing its composition is far too costly...cheaper to start from scratch with the basic materiel...sand. Same thing with Redbird carbodies...cheaper to dump them into the ocean than take the risk of transporting them with contents containing asbestos. Just found out today that the military dumps the old tank bodies and APCs into the ocean too. CI Peter
My whole point was that the TA should consider it's own recycling plant made specifically for train window glass, and that ut should be possible because of the other materials that can be recycled.
Lt. Steve Mona is a hermaphrodite, he needs to get a life. This man is in trouble
The News, in publishing pictures of the scratchitti, is doing the city a disservice. Publicity is just what these fools want.
Peace,
ANDEE
The article quoted somebofdy's error. Scratching windows, like the graffitti vandalism which preceded it, is not ghetto work. It involves offenders of all socioeconomic levels, but many are middle class or affluent, and some come from overseas esp. to do it.
Amen to that Ron! On my last job, I got off an exit ramp on the GCP and a little red sports car in front goes up on the grass. Driver runs out and 'tags' a traffic control box with red spray paint. 'Cost' and 'Revs' weren't poor boys either. CI Peter
I would have been tempted to make the guy drink his own paint. But taking down his license number and description and supplying that to the police would have been satisfying enough.
There was a article in today's Daily News about a young woman who was injured when she leaped in front of a northbound train at 174 street on the 2 and 5 lines.
Yes! It happened! She jumped in front of an R-142.
Did this happen yesterday morning? Because yesterday, I had a job interview at the National Hemophilia Foundation at 10 AM, and I was 20 minutes late. I spent 20 minutes waiting for a 2 train at Burke Avenue at around 9 AM. When I finally got there, I told the receptionist that I was late and she said that someone else was late due to someone trying to jump in front of a train. This must have been it. This woman just had to jump in front of a train, didn't she? She just had to inconvenience other people while trying to take her life. Unbelievable.
Now, now... to each their own...
After all, there IS such a thing called
'arriving 15 minutes BEFORE your job interview'..
However, given that the trainset was r142,
there are a few of us aboard this board
whom would certainly much rather jump (rope)
before boarding such hideousness..
She had to know you were going to a Hemophilia Foundation Meeting. Why else would she donate some blood to a Number 2 train.
Story in today's Chicago Tribune:
Michigan tests high-speed rail
Amtrak trains are now going a whopping (drumroll, please...) 90 MPH on a section of track in Michigan as part of a test for future high-speed rail service in the Midwest. On one hand it's nice to see concrete steps being taken on the Midwest HSR project, but on the other hand, the article plainly illustrates how pathetic it is that we're still struggling to catch up to 1950's rail technology. The Europeans and Japanese must roll their eyes and laugh when they read news like this here.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Amtrak trains are now going a whopping 90 MPH... The Europeans and Japanese must roll their eyes and laugh when they read news like this here.
So do the New Jerseyans (135 mph Acela Express, 125 mph Acela Regional and Metroliner Service), and I suspect the New Englanders (150 mph Acela Express).
Everbody wants new trainsets but nowhere do I see NEW trackage. Bombardiers countersuit against AMTRAK has some small merit that tracks weren't upgraded to handle higher speeds...a similar countersuit could applied 'elsewhere.' The whirring of the 'Black Helicopter' rotors is getting louder now... CI Peter
irony dept. When I rode that route several years back, the 'cab/control car in push/pull was a defanged Metroliner.
I reported on this several weeks ago. The report I got was that NS has finished installing cab signals on the line and that the FRA had given the go-ahead for 90mph operation. This story talks about some fancy pants GPS, computerized signal suplimentation system. I have yet to determine if this just works with wayside signals or witn new cabsignals (a programme that NS is pushing).
FYI, many of the routes around Chicago should be OK for 80+ operation as they are ATS equipped. These lines include the BNSF to Aroura, the UP to Nelson and all of the former CNW commuter lines. Why speeds have not been realized on these lines is anyone's guess. It could be that they are busy freight trunk lines and upgrading to class 5 standards is not feasable.
How do CWR trains turn. The rail can be several thousand feet long. How can the train turn without snapping the rail its carrying?
When we think of curves we tend to think in terms of sharp angles - a turn at an intersection is usually 90°, for example, with a radius measured at the stop line of less than 50'. That becomes our frame of reference, so our natural supposition is that rail would break when going around a curve. Railroad curves, however, have radii measured in hundreds if not thousands of feet, so the deflection isn't nearly that great. Also, we think of steel as rigid, whereas it is inherently flexible along the grain (and yes, steel has a "grain" to it, just like wood - I'll not attempt a technical discussion of it here since I'll probably get a couple of details wrong, but perhaps one of our resident metallurgists or engineers will explain), so it can handle flexing within those limits.
Hope that helps.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The curvature of the rails on the CWR train will essentially be the same as the curvature of the rails that the train is travelling over.
My understanding of the CWR trains is that the rails are secured by the middle car and run through sets of rollers fore and aft to accommodate curves.
Yes, there are rollers, which allow longitudinal movement as well as being used as the rail is removed from the cars. The operation that I had the closest opportunity to observe was on Norfolk Southern's line through Zebulon, North Carolina, about ten years ago. The entire train was moving very slowly along a stretch of old jointed rail. Near the end of the train was a purpose-built piece of equipment, about 100' long, that had two short-wheelbase trucks, one at each end. The truck adjacent to the cars of CWR was moving on the old rail, while the machine was pulling spikes, pushing the old rail outside the gauge, replacing selected ties (from a supply being fed from special tie cars on the other side of this machine), and then laying and spiking the new CWR. The truck adjacent to the tie cars and the remainder of the train was on the new rail. The entire operation was under the control of the operator of this car, although there were a number of other members of the track crew who were working alongside the train to ensure that the old rail and pulled spikes stayed in the clear and watching the new rail to be certain it ended up exactly where it was supposed to. At one point they encountered a facing-point turnout for a siding and continued the rail ribbon on the straight side of the switch while cutting and splicing (using a welding rig on the machine at the entrance to the turnout and a joint bar at the frog) the turning rail. Quite a smooth operation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's probably the same, in some respects, kind of operation that the LIRR uses to replace the wooden ties and older rail with the track layer machine, which lays the CONCRETE ties and new rail together. Makes for a faster replacement and less down time while doing the entire operation.
Stuart, RLine86Man
That would be a great Camcorder moment. When and where will it next be done?
avid
Rail is a lot more flexible than you think.....if it bends when it's laid as track, it will bend on a CWR train. If you look close at a CWR train, you'll see the rail is actually sitting on rollers in the cradles, so it can move around when bending.
Currently, most of the debris being removed from Ground Zero is being trucked to Pier 6 (Coenties Slip) or Pier 25, immediately north of Stuyvesant H.S. The debris is then offloaded to barges and shipped to Staten Island.
Would it be feasible, instead (or in addition), to freight the debris out via the PATH line? And if so, what would be the best way to get it to Staten Island?
Due mainly to the barge operation at Pier 25, huge clouds of toxic dust are raised with each truckload that's offloaded (600 per day). Because Stuyvesant High is right next door, this is causing problems with air quality in the school. Many children and teachers have gotten sick with respiratory distress and disease. I'm looking to see if anyone can offer an alternative to the barge operation there.
If the dust clouds are caused while the trucks are being moved to the pier, then they are violating state law. There must be a covering over the truck to prevent such dust clouds.
If the dust clouds are caused by the transfer at pier 25 then the transfer should take place inside a shed. The shed would prevent dust from escaping to the nearby areas. There should be a ventilation system within the shed. It would push the air flow down and into the river. The water contact would clear weigh down any particles and prevent their escape to atmosphere.
Similarly, if Stuyvesant has a forced air ventilation system, its air intake should include a wet collector to trap any dust particles. It would be easier to trap the particles at the source - pier 25 but this is a very sovable problem.
All of the above.
The trucks are only loosely covered. Crap spills out all over West St.
The debris is hosed down as it's dumped into a bin; still some dust comes up. The bin is then swung by crane to the barge where it's dumped again. No watering this time and a bigger cloud. No shed. No covering.
The truck then moves into position right next to the school, where it's hosed down for the return trip. The guys with the hoses wear respirators because the dust is toxic. All this right next to the school, which has no HEPA filtration whatsoever. Each room has its own ventilator to the outside. There is air monitoring both inside and outside the school and it's unacceptable.
Well if they're letting the kids go to school there then something must be acceptable.
Asbestos was acceptable when I went to school even when it came down from the ceiling in chunks. CI Peter
Asbestos was acceptable when I went to school even when it came down from the ceiling in chunks.
That was Brooklyn Tech, wasn't it?
Naw, I'm from New Yawk and it probably was my junior high on 76th Street but they all had that problem and nothing was done till several years after the Manville disclosures. That's why Redbird carbodies remain intact and go swimming. CI Peter
<< That's why Redbird carbodies remain intact and go swimming. >>
I thought the asbestos was removed before the redbirds visited the fishes?
I thought the asbestos was removed before the redbirds visited the fishes?
No, it's not. One of the reasons for sending the 'birds swimming is to avoid having to remove it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Exactly what the State and EPA said about Love Canal.
The point is no one knows for sure. Are we supposed to go along with this until someone PROVES it's not OK. Common sense says you don't dump toxic debris right next to a school. And if it's not toxic, how come the workers wear respirators?
And it's not just parents who suspect. If it's so safe down there, how come the insurance companies won't underwrite health insurance for the construction workers?
They won't put any money on the line, but we're supposed to turn a blind eye when it comes to our children.
If it's so safe down there, how come the insurance companies won't underwrite health insurance for the construction workers?
Maybe so insurance companies could make extra money ripping people off.
What about an article analyzing air samples in the school newspaper. This should explode to an letter to the editor of the New York Times, when the the article is removed by the school administration prior to publication.
Unfortunately, it's a fairly enlightened school. They've done such articles AND they've been printed. The only incident occurred several years ago when some students created an unofficial web site that sollicited teacher evaluations from the students. A few highly unpopular teachers sued the students.
But I digress. There are several problems here. First, the press is actually tiring of Stuyvesant stories. I've personally talked to a few reporters.
Second, in case nobody noticed, the city is determined to clear the site as quickly as possible so that rebuilding can begin. Let me be the first to say that no one at Stuvesant opposes this in principle. It's just that the entire load of debris is trucked right past the school and then dumped 30 feet away. I realize that no one wants the barge in their backyard, but exposing kids to this is unconscionable. Anyway, the point of this is that all of this is being done in an effort to revive the city's economy. Newspapers, all the press for that matter, are reeling economically along with everyone else. So they're not eager to pick up this ball.
All our elected officials agree with the parents that it should be moved. But here it is, more than 4 months later, still going strong. There's no doubt the barge will be moved....as soon as the last ounce of debris is removed. (Actually, they'll just reverse the flow when they bring the new construction materials in. They'll be clean, at least, but the particulate emissions form the diesel trucks and cranes will remain.)
Newspapers, all the press for that matter, are reeling economically...
Stories about deliberately poisoning children sells papers. Leak the story to the Post of the Drudge Report.
Get the names of the contractors whose trucks car the material. Sue them - they are not covered by insurance. You will need an air sample analysis. I'm sure at least one Stuyvesant student's parent must be a lawyer.
BTW, you are getting an education about the real world. You would usually have had to wait ten years to get such a screw job.
Each room has its own ventilator to the outside.
Those ventilators under the windows don't connect directly outside, do you see any vents on that side of the building?
All of the outside vents are on the 11th floor on the north side of the building, which of course exacerbates the problem you describe.
PS: what's in the Class of 2000 glass block (it's on the right after entering from the bridge, right after the security desk)?
PPS: Do they really make you wear your ID now?
Debris removal via the PATH tunnel is a dubious proposition at best. Parts of the tunnel and WTC station were destroyed on September 11th and a concrete plug has been poured on the New Jersey side to guard against flooding. If debris were transported that way, it would just have to be trucked a considerable distance from the offload point in New Jersey to the Fresh Kills landfill on Staten Island. The barges, in contrast, can offload right at Fresh Kills, minimizing transportation cost and time.
Besides, isn't it a bit late to raise this issue, now that most of the debris has been removed?
Not at all. They won't be done until June, so they say. That's another school term (new one started today).
I'm just looking at potential alternatives.
Facts are, air quality readings are OK most days, but not all. We had a huge spike in lead dust in the cafeteria recently.
But what they measure are individual pollutants. No one knows the synergystic effect that they create. Most experts say, however, that the toxic effects of the combined soup can be many dozens of times more dangerous than any single component.
And as I said, the filtration in the school is inadequate. And the ducts were never cleaned. (The building is just 4 blocks from ground zero and 30 feet from the barge.)
Other than finding a pier further north, another one on the east river or trucking it all the way to Staten Island, there really aren't that many options (and if it's any small consolation, the old Stuyvesant HS had its own air quality problem back in 1975 when the New York Telelphone Co. switching center at Second Ave. and 13th St. burned, sending the same smell of burning plastic and electrical wires right into the school two blocks away. Obviously, the two events were nowhere near the same magnitude, and the NY Telephone fire's smell was gone by the middle of the following week, but there were still health concerns in the surrounding neighborhood).
Just watched the History Channel's 30 minute in-depth study of the past, present and future of subways in America. I was certainly suprised to see that the interior of Boston's F train looks exactly like New York's F train. I learned that Boston's third rail is 600 volts in some places and 680 elsewhere (or so the employees believed). I was disappointed to learn that the future of subways will be propane powered buses running through tunnels.
It's a good thing I watch TV. You subtalk folks have apparently not done the painstaking research that the History Channel folks lavished on this impressive program.
Bill
It is apparent to me that you have not browsed this site. I saw the program you saw. They said nothing about tile colors, number of tracks in the subway, mention of old elevators still present,, closed stations, station description. I could go on but I think you will not get the point.
This site is called New York City Subway Resources and is about the subway in..... New York City.
I hereby award you Train Dude's Darwin award.
I thought he was being sarcastic, but then again, maybe not.
Well somebody had to show him where it's at----and it's here on Subtalk.
He was definitly being sarcastic. Funny post!
Anybody who can say they learned all there is to know about the NYC Subways from a single 30 Minute program is either flat-out lying or Assuming alot.
He was just being funny. I think we all know that. Hell in thirty minutes what you could learn about the New York Subway system could be put on the head of a pin with room enough for the US Constitution.
B"H
you've all been ha dby a troll...sorry to see such creatures joining this board...i thought that this board would be safe from the likes of them...
Calm down, Buff... his post was dripping with sarcasm! And he's posted here enough previously to show his true appreciation of this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was making fun of the show. "30 minute in-depth" should have been a big clue that I wasn't serious.
Bill
Thanks! I take my job serious and I also love the system in addition to loving my job. I accept your statement.
The guy was busting on NYC....just joking, ya know?
Lighten up, subway-buff, will ya? BTW, tell Peggy I said hi.
BMTman
8-))
LOL.
It's a good thing that television and computers have reached your end of the world so that there is more to life than milking the chickens or watching the intersection light blink. The DC 600 is a bit more stable...and we have 740+ miles of trackage with 11,000+track zones to detect trainset presence and all linked with 310,000+ relays. It is a big system, an old system and changes take time and money with new equipment and technology coming in every day. Only problem in New York is that s o m e of that technology is a bit more sophisticated than it should be. Car Inspector Peter
I noticed something strange while watching that program. In the scene where that (annoying) guy is operating the Boston subway, they interspersed it with shots of passengers riding in the car. Only problem was that those passenger shots were from NYC not Boston! I was able to tell because I saw a sign in the background which was a notice about the B-D Manny B service changes. Unless there's an Orange B and D line in Boston which also had service changes, it was definately NY. It only flashed for a second but long enough to notice it.
Anyone else notice this?
Wayne
Yes. I did. I thought it was an F but it might have been a B or D. It was definitely orange. They cut that shot in several times. I'd be willing to bet the Boston train being operated by a TV personality under the supervision of a trainer was not a regular revenue run. It was probably empty. And to a TV editor, one subway car looks like any other.
Bill
Last night, I woke up and couldn't fall back asleep at around 4AM. Every couple of minutes, I'd hear loud noises as if a subway was passing by. The reason why I thought it couldn't be was because I'm 7-8 blocks away from the open cut of the Sea Beach. The noises did sound like (or at least one of them anyway) an R68 with the high pitch of the motor. I also heard airplanes overhead and they were WAY louder. I normally don't hear those noises, is it because during the night, there aren't as many noises so it makes others clearer, or because the body's hearing becomes sharper when you wake up in the middle of the night, or was it really the subway? This also brings the question of what's it like to have the subway in your backyard or at your window?
i live three blocks away from the w elevated train. and laet nights i do hear it. but i think that 7-8 blocks away is too far to hear it maybe it was contruction or something.
Funny you mention that. I lived 2 blocks away from the 31st El in Astoria. The nights that I couldn't sleep were when the trains did not run! For example, during the 1965 blackout, a transit strike back in the late 60s, and when heavy snow limited service to underground only.
I live 6 blocks from MN in the Bronx and can hear those trains at night all the time. In the daytime you can't hear them at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember hearing something about sound at night going toward the ground while at day times it goes up. Anyways I live 1/4 miles north of hillside ave. and in the evenings I hear the LIRR trains in my bathroom when the windows were open. Actually I thought once 2 trains smashed each other cause of the horns blowing.
I used to live right next to the LIRR tracks in Kew Gardens, but 5 floors above the tracks so it wasn't that bad. They say that you get used to it, and it's true, even when the old diesels passed. It's true even with people who live right next to elevated subway tracks. However, studies have proven that people who live next to elevated lines have worse hearing than others since they have consistent exposure to decibel readings of up to 120 db.
120? Isn't 110 the measure of a jet take-off?
That's about right for a train of R-10s at 81st St. Pretty loud.
We had friends who lived a couple of blocks off Jamaica Ave. at the 111th St. station, and you could hear the trains at night pretty clearly. I slept there a few times, but it never bothered me.
I used to stay at my cousins' at E 16 St & Ave T for a week or two a year; you could reach out the bedroom window and get your hand run over by a passing Brighton local. It took about two passing trains before I didn't hear them anymore. When I returned home, it took about a week for me to sleep normally without hearing them.
Dayyyyyyyyyyum.......that's a close "ax" call.
My advice: wear earplugs while sleeping at your cousin's house from now on.....
Stuart, RLine86Man
loud enough to the point where Motormen and Conductors might suffer from hearing loss over the duration of their careers
I bet.......probably another reason why they're kicked out of da soivice after twenty years. (Yeah, yeah, rail dust, too...prove that such a thing exists, and then I'll actually ACCEPT that theory!)
Stuart, RLine86Man
I live in the Bronx on the 2 & 5 lines (Jackson Avenue). My apartment overlooks the station and tracks. After living here for 21 years now, I have become more than comfortable with the sound of the trains. I think it would be weird if I didn't hear them actually. During rush hour, the trains are at their loudest since you have more of them heading downtown or Uptown to 180th Street and beyond. I can always distinguish a train that is going to stop at the station from one that is going express.
I normally don't hear those noises, is it because during the night, there aren't as many noises so it makes others clearer, or because the body's hearing becomes sharper when you wake up in the middle of the night, or was it really the subway?
I live in Edison, NJ where the NEC tracks between Metuchen and Metropark are located right outside the outskirts of our apartment complex over a big hill. If I get lucky, I can get a glimpse of an AM rush NJT train between the opening of the apartment buildings while I walk to my bus stop in the morning.
Sometimes I would hear many more trains run through here as usual, but sometimes I don't. I sit at my desk doing homework almost every night at the same time and I notice.
Also, sometimes for a period of time I would hear BOEING airplanes making their noisy "jetty" noise every 45 sec.- 1 minute all flying low to land in Newark.
Sometimes I hear them, sometimes I don't.
I think it's either a traffic pattern or the person's instincts.
I live about half a mile from the Hudson Line in Hastings-on-Hudson and I can hear it up the hill from I live. If the conditions are right it can be quite distinctive.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember as a little boy hearing the Sixth Ave trains in my father's store's sub-basement. They were LOUD and the wall vibrated fiercely. At the end of a corridor in this sub-basement was a door that was heavily locked. My father told me that this lead directly into the subway tunnel, leading into an emergency exit and a vault.
If only I could return to this building to do a little exploring...
Tunnel Rat.
I remember a while back when "N" was for never and "R" for rarely. Someone even came up with "The Weak and Wobbly" for the "W".
Lately though the Sea Beach Line has been rechristened several times.
#4 Sea Bits
#4 Sea Breeze
#4 Slow Beach.
Anyone else have some good nicknames?
Larry,RedbirdR33
NX was super sea beach express. aka "Noble Expreriment" a reference to the experiment of prohibition. It ran parts of 1967-1968.
SLO BEACH TO NO WHERE
You need new material pal. You're old stuff is about as exciting as yesterday's news.
ENRON-BUSH ENRON-CHANEY =$$$$$$$$$
Lieberman, Gephardt, Conrad, Daschle. Come off the politics kick unless you know what you're talking about. You Demwito-rats had their hands in the cookie jar as much as the Republicans. And with Bush's approval ratings at 80-85% you ought to just cool it and go with the flow.
Yeah, but at least the demos spread it around a bit ... :)
They spread it around all right---and you're safe if you have a shovel and a violin handy. Otherwise you're in a lot of trouble when the Dimwitocrat Party starts laying it on thick.
Yeah, I guess a shovel will do the trick when cleaning up after a donkey but you DO need a frontloader when you're behind an elephant. :)
Give my regards to that dead dog Al Gore who will never get to the White House except as a tourist.
Wonder how much Enron stock Al had. Meow. :)
Or the Article in Last Sunday News how much the Lay gave to Bush and the Republican Party since 95, and how he had Georgie Boy de-regulated the power industry in Texas, so Enron can raise rates,and how much Enron screwed people all over the country
Wonder how a guy named "Lay" will make out in security prison. :)
Bubba is sure to notice.:-)
Kewl! Musta been a syndicated radio skit then ... heh.
Lay ... DeLay, must mean something. Oooooooooooooo ... cookies! :)
Good to see you're back and in your usual good form.
Thanks Good to Be back
I don't get what Sea Bits is supposed to mean...
It means some ignorant dork who doesn't know shit from shinola is trying to be funny, and should take up a new profession of standing outside a doctor's office making people sick.
Now, now, Fred. This should make you feel better:
Nah, he doesn't like those crappy IND cars to desecrate his sacred Slow, er Sea Beach. Maybe this would soothe him:
And of course, this sooths me:
Slow?....... Uh oh, you almost slipped. Yes I am soothed. We both are. Thanks to both of you for coming to my aid.
Uh, Fred, those are BMT standards. I thought you said you didn't like them.
Nah! Fred doesn't like Standards or R-1/9.
It has to be a Triplex!
"It has to be the Triplex". Si si Amigo!
Those other guys just don't understand you!
Well, I tried. At least that R-1/9 train says "4/Sea Beach". And don't forget the R-1s ran tests on the Sea Beach in 1931.
Yes you tried and I printed them. They are in color and its says 57th Street and it has #4 and it says Sea Beach. I really appreciated what you did, but maybe I should explain myself. To me the real Sea Beach was and always will be the Sea Beach of my young years. That was a Triplex. But I'm not an ingrate. I should have been clearer in my answer to the guy who mentioned the Triplex. Who was he anyway? I have already forgotten. The memory starts to fade as old age sets in.
You admit you are gettin OLD
At least I admit it Bob. You pretend you're a spring chicken when in fact you are a chicken springed. And don't crap out on me next fall. I expect you in New York. BTW, should we send it out to invite a bunch of Subtalk buddies to join us? That ought to be something if a dozen or so of us can hitch up and raise hell. Besides I am not going into the Bronx unless I have backup or Stef and Selkirk clear a path for me.
Selkirk's a Brighton boy ... ask nice. Heh.
No kidding? Me, too ... what part of Brighton?
--Mark
Me 3 Kings Highway Station, born at Madison Pk Hosp, 2301 K>H> for tghe 1stb16 1/2 years of my life. There is a place under the Brighton where you still can get a egg cream. On the Southside of KH, just after the station and before 15th
I searched for that last December and couldn't find it. Where exactly is the store that sells the egg creams?
When you leave the station, look for the first candy store on your right. There is no soda fountain, but behind the counter there is a place where t hey make egg creams. Bob had one last summer when he showed me his old neighborhood.
On the Southside of KH, go out, turn left toward E 15th, first newstand from station
Yeah, I know it well. I lived at 3130 Brighton 6th St until I was 13, then moved to Marine Park. My folks still live there ... Kings Highway & East 3th St right near the KH traffic circle.
--Mark
You mean 33rd
I *lived* in Da Bronx but worked the Brighton line in 1970 and 71. Thus my loyalty is to my old work line if I must choose a southern division branch.
Wnat to know something else? The R-1/9s and Triplexes had the same braking system. Do you remember hearing a "tch-sssss" sound, often repeated more than once, on the Triplexes as they came to a stop? The R-1/9s did it, too.
THAT was "feathering" ... you had to play with the "hold" or "lap braking" on those ... you'd grab what you felt you needed and then had to wait 3 to 4 seconds for it to *APPLY* ... then you realized you might have taken too GENEROUS a "nip" and needed to let it go. Had to release to do that, then suck it up again. Lapping would HOLD whatever you did, wise or not. Whoops! :)
The only REAL place to take in the "FFFFFFFFFFF-SHSHSHSHSHSHHHHH" was in the cab, now that was NICE ... you'd grab some, drop, grab some more ... let it ride, let some out, pull some more to salute the enamel that said "10" ... slap it ... punch mushroom ... woohoo. Psshhhhh...shhhhhh ... ngyngyngyngyngyngyngyngy ... etc ... pssh.
What was that last sound? If I didn't know better, I'd say it was a compressor.
Which last sound?
ngyngyngyngyngyngyngyngyngyngyngyngyngyngyngy
Ah ... yep ... that's the chugger ... compressor ... warbler ... doohickey ... fresh air for old, 90 pounds or die. :)
At one time, I thought the compressor was the engine (internal combustion). It took me a while to realize subway trains run on electricity.
Where available ... this is after all, ConEd land (what's their logo today ... hell, stop making new logos and pass on the savings) ... watts for tots and all that. But yeah, the warbler meant you were dropping near 90 and it was time for the balloons to expand once again. Ah, how I miss railroading with air bladders. Heh.
I remember that noise very well. It was very distinct from what I heard or didn't hear on the Standards. Looking back now I feel the B's were good cars but the Triplex just looked like a dynamo. They had character and charisma. I have never been bewitched by a train car as I was the Triplex.
The BMT standards would go "tchhhhhhhhhhhhhh" once just as they came to a full stop. It was similar to the "tch-ssssssss" magnet valve sound on the Triplexes and R-1/9s, but without the "sssssssss".
But the Triplex belongs on the Bighton line. Anywhere else would be sacrilige!
Anywhere else would be sacrilige!
Not according to Fred!
A humungous pile of BS on that one. The Brighton used both the Triplex and the Standards, so they were merely half-breeds where that great car was concerned. My Sea Beach WAS the Triplex and don't forget that. Say it with me------The Triplex #4BMT
The BMT standards went full circle on the Sea Beach. They made their debut on that and the 4th Ave. lines on June 22, 1915 and returned to the Sea Beach prior to the arrival of the shiny new R-32s. Had you remained in the city after 1954, you would have thrown a screaming fit after seeing BMT standards on the Sea Beach once again.
I know Steve. In 1963 for some strange reason they were switched back to the Sea Beach. Good thing I didn;t know about it because it would have ruined what may have been my favorite year of all.
FWIW it hurt to see the R-10s on the CC, later the C after being on the A for so many years.
Chris,
I'm still trying to figure out why our buddy Sea Beach Fred can't seem to appreciate our beloved ABSs along with the D-types. After all, when the Sea Beach opened in 1915 the Standards are what had the opening honors!
Like I keep saying Fred, If you are a Southern Division BMT man like us, the ABs and D-types go together like peanut butter and jelly.
To paraphrase Ronald Reagan: "Thou shall not speak ill of fellow BMT rolling stock"
We've got: Hot Lunch!
You're the only one who's ever made the PBJ analogy.:-)
I think the reason Fred didn't like the BMT standards was because they ran on the 4th Ave. local, which he despised. I didn't like them when I rode on them on the Canarsie because they didn't have signs up front.
I remember R 1-9 I am not sure which ran on the 4th Ave Local in the Mid 50s
There were some R-1s on the 4th Ave. local as late as 1958, IIRC.
I moved to LA in Dec 58, and I think the car numbers on the 4th Ave were in the 1100s, but I am most likely wrong
Just to clarify a few points.
IND R 1-9's assingned to the BMT prior to Chrystie Street.
July 8,1931- 20 R-1 assinged to the #4 Sea Beach July 8-November 27,1931
1949-1955 R-1 used on the #2 Fourth Avenue to permit extension of service to Astoria, returned to IND when R-16's arrived
1956-1958 R-9's 1748-1802 assigned to #2 Fourth Avenue in exchange for R-16's used on the Rockaway Line
From about 1954-1955 a number of R-10s also ran on the BMT Eastern Section routes.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thirty R-10s, to be exact.
As far back as I can remember the 2 4th Ave Local in the 50s had the IND R cars, don t actually remember standards on the 4th Ave Local
The Standards were exclusive on the 4th Avenue Local until around 1953 when a few of the R cars appeared. Either way the line stunk to high heaven.
I never rode the 4th Ave anyway, unless it was from Lower manhatten to DeKalb to catch the Brighton at DeKalb when the Brighton Local was over the Bridge
Well I can tell you old buddy---You didn't miss a damn thing.
Exactly Steve. You hit all the nails on the head.
Hot Lunch: You are right all the way. The Standards are BMT and I have been forced to take a second look at them. I think the main reason I sort of disliked them was because they ran on the #2 4th Avenue Local which was a dull ride all the way (Only one outside stop). Another reason could be they had no ID, number or letter that could be seen.
Fred,
Some reasons to like the ABs: 1. the wonderful 3/2 seating which seemed to open up the interior almost like a living room. 2. the wooden window sashes on the 2000-2599 series cars, which created a great rattle/rumble as they accelerated. 3. watching the conductor control the doors from the middle inside door panel. 4. having to learn the marker light colors to tell which route. 5. Last but not least; what can you say about a car that with very little maintenance and some simple rewiring managed to run for over 50 years!
I know Fred, the same could be said of the D-types running all those years with little maintenance and meeting an untimely death.
Hail the BMT!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
I think "premature death" is very appropriate when discussing the Triplexes. They would have kept right on rolling along, laughing in the face of deferred maintenance, into the 1980s at least.
LOL, I remember those crappy clock signs with an ad on them in the background. Did they start taking those down? I don't see them as often anymore.
I believe this is an R-1. I may be wrong but I think it is. I have seen this picture somewhere before. Did any of these actually run on the Sea Beach line? I am unaware if this was so. The train looks like a fan trip to me.
Yes - R1's did run on the Sea Beach, before the IND Subway opened.
An 8 car train of R1's was tested on the Sea Beach to work out the bugs.
But for me, the N was/is the land of the Triplex and the R32.........
R16: Agreed with one qualification. The Triplex never carried the letter N. It was always the #4 on the Sea Beach line. Hence, my handle.
When were the Triplex's, or D types, pulled from the Sea Beach and moved to the West End? Was it in 1964 or before that?
In 1963 the Triplexes were pulled off the Sea Beach and put on the WestEnd line. By that time I had been a Californian for nine years and was unaware of it. It would have been a bummer for me to see the Standards used on my train and the Triplex on the West End. I found this out much later, of course. The Triplexes were pulled off the Southern Division in the summer of 1965.
Thanks.
When my parents got married in 1964, they lived about 1 block from the West End. My mom used to commute to the Bronx via the West End, and says she rode the Triplexes most of the time. I arrived in this world in February of 1965, so my earliest subway rides, via my mom, was on those things.
>>I believe this is an R-1. I may be wrong but I think it is. I have seen this picture somewhere before. Did any of these actually run on the Sea Beach line? I am unaware if this was so. The train looks like a fan trip to me.<<
Yes Fred, that was a fan trip. But I am uncertain of the year.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Newkirk, good to hear from you. You ought to ask Steve8AVEXP about that. He sent me the picture. I cannot recall ever seeing one on the Sea Beach when I lived in New York. It was always the Triplex. Speaking of the Triplex, yes, the picture you sent me is still in the living room nicely framed and that's where it will stay.
Yes on the wall between his 2 favorite Italian Baseball Players. Yogi Berra and Phil Rizzutto(Ha ha ha)
YEEEEEEEUUYUUUUUKKKKKKKK!!!!!!! The only thing I have in common with those two bums is our foreign heritage. I really despised those two g uys as you well know.
>>YEEEEEEEUUYUUUUUKKKKKKKK!!!!!!! The only thing I have in common with those two bums is our foreign heritage. I really despised those two g uys as you well know.<<
Hey Fred.....sit down, relax, CHILL.....have a lasagna sandwich.....you'll feel better !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill, a word or two is needed here. I am of Italian heritage, most everyone knows that. However, as a kid I had this deep dislike for the Yankees which has carried down to this very day. Being a passionate Brooklyn fan I railed when the Yankees would always seem to outdo us in the Series. To make matters worse, it seemed like the best Yankee players were always Italian---DiMaggio, Berra, Raschi, Rizzuto, Martin, etc. It got so that I hated the Italian Yankees the most because I considered it an offense that my Dago brothers would be onthe other side. To this day I dislike those guys. My grandfather couldn't understand it and my mother's attempts to explain it to him went for naught. The Dodgers did have Carl Furillo and Roy Campanella ( who was half Italian), but few others.
For once the Eyties had brains to sign with the Yankees and Not the Bums.
>>Hey Bill, a word or two is needed here. I am of Italian heritage, most everyone knows that<<
Fred, I am 3/4 Italian myself. Also, born and raised in Brooklyn from a family of Brooklyn Dodger fans. Thought you'd like to know that.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well Mr. "Newkirk" I always knew you had class. Now I'm convinced of it and I know why. You're A-OK.
Hey, Bob, you forgot Joe DiMaggio.:-)
No he didn't. He just wanted to avoid giving me a bad case of apoplexy. I was probably the only Italian-American kid in New York at the time who disliked Joe DiMaggio.
FWIW, Sal Maglie found himself with the Dodgers late in his career.
And after Fred gave me the Joe DiMaggio bokk last Summer, and of course #2 Frankie Crossetti and now Joe Torre
Smart Ass personified. Are you sure you and Selkirk aren't the same person? Or Selkirk is you in drag?
I don’t know which is funnier, the original posting, or knowing and waiting for the inevitable rejoinder from Fred…
ROTFLMAO!
Stay tuned John L. The best is yet to come. We are a barrel of laughs.
IIRC, Slow Beach was coined by #1 Brighton Express Bob. The copyright on Sea Bits goes to SelkirkTMO. Sorry, I don't remember who has the copyright on the Never. Never hear of Sea Breeze. But I can hear: "Track 2, N Broadway Local to Astoria. Lawrence St. next stop. Watch the doors." I love it. My vote goes to "Slow Beach".
Bob would love this.:-)
or the "S" for STUPID!!!!! *lol*
Stuart, RLine86Man
When the Broadway line gets really bad, it seems like it's just "N"ot "R"unning.
Slow Beach and Worst End have been around for a while. Let's not forget the Franklin Avenue Sh_ttle :).
ooooooooooooooo....niiiiiiiiiiiiiice :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
Hey... why don't we ever pick on the Worst End anyway?
The West End is a beautiful elevated line which is more attractive than Sea Beach. I also prefer the rolling stock on the West End that was used through its history.
When you look out the window on the West End, you see sights, not the side of a wall. And more outside, since it doesn't merge until 4th Av e and 36th Street.
All this said, I still love Sea Beach.
The entire Broadway should be called "(N)ever (R)uns (Q)uickly or (W)ell ...
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, there's Wheezing, Wimp, Wuss, and Worthless for the W.
There's Dead, Dimwitted, Dumb-dumb and Deadweight for the "Dee"
RLine: Oh, I see you have gotten acquainted with #1 Brighton Express Bob.
Brighton Express Bawb? Nope...just know it from experience...around 20 years or so of experience........ESPECIALLY during the original Manny B rehab of the '80's.
Stuart, RLine86Man
RLine: Actually Bob is a pretty smark fella, but we like riding each other good. We can do it because we are real good pals. There is nothing I wouldn't do for him.
And Fred is probably one of my 2 closest friends anywhere. Funny my 2 closest friends are in Smog town and I miss them both. I havre to get out there sometime this year
Love to have you. We can have a hell of a time in sunny So Cal and up to Frisco if you are of a mind. But I hope you and Bob can both be in New York at the same time. No sweat for me. I'm very flexible in that regard.
The D is the 6th Ave Line, I am a Q Line
And MY favorite, "dubya" ...
Let's leave Georgie Porgie out of this.:-)
Moo ...
That reminds me of what Michigan fans refer to Michigan State as - Moo U. Michigan State started out as Michigan Agricultural College.
Ditto for NC State University (originally NC State Ag & Tech), and still home to one of the largest veterinary schools specializing in livestock in the country.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, my alma mater (UConn) started out as Storrs Agricultural College. No one ever refers to us as Moo U, though; it's been the University of Connecticut since 1939.
NC State alums are even proud of it... a fellow N-scaler has MOO U 82 on his license plate... he's an engineering graduate though, not a veterinarian. A lot of people wonder about how sane he is... he married out of the faith... his wife is a Carolina graduate. (One must remember that ACC basketball is like religion down around my home neck of the woods... and State vs. Carolina is THE game of the year. When we first moved out to the country in '82 our neighbors couldn't figure us out either... one car was State Red, the other Carolina blue, and the old pickup was Duke blue. And twenty years later we still keep 'em guessing.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>Moo ...<<
Selkirk, I see you've been watching those Gateway computer commercials heh !
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, I'm suing THEM ... I've been programming "moo" (as in udderly hideous kludges) since 1981 ... got Gateway by a few years. But I *do* like the ad. Even SOUNDS like me saying it. :)
Denver's radio station KOA had a moo sound bit they used to play. Don't hear it too much anymore, although Denver was known for years as a cow town.
They still play the rim shot every so often.
Just sent you an MPG of our prize bull ice skating. We take our heffers seriously around here. :)
Back in 1964 the TA wanted to extend the platforms at the Newkirk Avenue Station. To do this it was necessary to cut into the retaining walls on both sides of the local tracks so both of those tracks would be out of service. What the TA did was to route all trains onto the express tracks through Newkirk Avenue Station by straight-railing the local tracks into the express tracks both north and south of the station. This meant that between Prospect Park and Kings Highway the Brighton Line would be only a two track railroad. In the early 1960's there was no midday express service on the Brighton Line even though both the Q and QT were running.
Beginning February 10,1964 rush hour Brighton Express "Q" made all regular express stops and also Parkside Avenue and Avenue J. "QT" locals skipped Parkside Avenue and Avenue J. I'm not sure but I believe that rush hour M trains made the same stops as the Q north of Kings Highway,south of that point they ran local as usual.
Normal service was restored on November 10,1064.
Larry,RedbirdR33
However, the rush hour restoration was not a "done deal." At some point after the skip-stop was instituted the TA got it into its head that it was working so well it might become permanent. Word of this leaked out (i.e., the late Martin Schachne tipped me off, and mt brother and I tipped off several political groups) and this resulted in some of the first effective public hearings in the history of the TA.
Paul: Yes is was an unusual situation on the Brighton Line, both the local and express ran from 7am-7pm but during the midday period both services made local stops in Brooklyn. This was one of the first things that changed when the D started running there. Express service would operate throughout the day.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So, midday Brighton local riders on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving had 2 Broadway service going to midtown, but had only 1 Nassau St route the following Monday? Did anyone complain about such a radical cut in service?
Are you speaking of 1967? There was the D to 6 Av. I also think there was a rush-hour QB to Broadway via bridge. Midday, only the QJ and D, but you could switch at DeKalb for the N or RR.
Yeah, but pre-Chrystie, the Brighton local had midtown access 24/7. Afterwards, it had the QJ & a few QB's. Major downgrade in service, IMHO. Post Chrystie St. Brighton service was probably worse than before.
Chris: Brighton passengers did get the shaft. After Chrystie Street opened they had full time D service to 6 Avenue and 5 QB's to Broadway during the am rush, this was later increased to 7. The QB's were Brighton Locals. The base Brighton Local service ,QJ,now ran into the Nassau Street Line instead of Broadway. I really don't recall a whole lot of Brighton riders clamoring for this service.
The Broadway via bridge trains N,Q,T (that #4,1 and 3 for Fred) provided a fast service with the Brighton-Broadway via bridge being the best. The best the B and D could do was lumber their way up Chrystie Street unto the 6 Avenue Line. The 6 Avenue platforms were either very deep such as West 4 or 34 Street or narrow like 34 Street. They required a long climb to reach the surface and did not have conveniant transfer points.
Another bizarre route that was ill conceived was the NX. While it was great from a railfan's point of view it did nothing for the Sea Beach riders as it didn't even stop on that line. Also can you really imagine anyome boarding at Brighton Beach,Ocean Parkway or West 8 Street and wanting to go to Manhattan and boarding a train going in the opposite direction?
Another Chrystie Street odd ball was the RJ. While it was basically designed to replace the M/S Fourth Avenue-Nassau via Bridge express service,albeit local via tunnel, its seems the raison d' etre for its existence was to pitch-hit for the QJ for about 45 minutes during both the am and pm rush.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The reason the for the RJ, which ran for about 8 months, was so that a couple of extra switches could be installed north of Chambers St, allowing both former Nassau loop tracks north of Chambers to be used for relay & layup purposes. When that happened, the RJ was replaced with special rush hour RR Chambers St trains. The RJ (and RR-Chambers) trains ran together with the QJ.
In the original Chrystie plans, that would not have changed, as the QJ would only run serving the local stations rush hours (there was no QB special added yet.) People began complaining, and then it was modified to what actually ran.
In the movie "Next Stop Greenwich Village," there was a Newkirk Ave. scene which took place in 1956, but was filmed in the 1970's and part of the scene took place on a platform which was not built until 1964.
I remember a time (when the D-triplex) was still used on the Q-express. The express tracks were not used and during rush hour the express trains would run on the outside local tracks from Kings Highway to Prospect and skip the local stop.
When the express on the local track got to the switch at Kings Highway it would switch to the middle express track. This lasted six months and I think it was around 1964 or shortly before the D-triplexes were retired and the new R32's came in.
Of course I was disappointed to not be able to ride on the Express track.
As I recall, work was originally scheduled to begin in October or November, 1963. However, there were complaints that the TA should hold off until after the busy Christmas shopping season, so work didn't begin until early 1964 (Feb 10 according to Larry,RedbirdR33). It amazes me that they actually got the work done in 9 months, and had express service running again before the 1964 Christmas shopping season.
On the night that they rerouted the local tracks into the Newkirk Ave. express tracks (and again, when they undid it), the Brighton line (QB) trains terminated at Cortelyou Rd, single tracking on the southbound track between there and Prospect Park. Sea Beach (N) trains were extended from Coney Island along the Brighton line to Ave. H, single tracking on the northbound track between there and Kings Highway. A shuttle bus was provided to connect the two ends.
-- Ed Sachs
It amazes me that they actually got the work done in 9 months
All the work entailed was excavation of part of Newkirk Plaza, the extension of two platforms and two track realigments (at the beginning and end). I think 9 mos. was a generous time frame.
Nowadays, that kind of work, with all of the red tape, would take a few YEARS.
Stuart, RLine86Man
They got the Franklin Shuttle, much more extensive work, done in, what, 15 months?
For *&^@@!!! sake, they didn't even have to build switches at Newkirk, so 9 months was plenty.
Didn't Beverly & Cortelyou road need similar extensions? That'd require some excavation to make an extended platform.
That's why the ends of their platforms are very, VERRRRRRRRRY small.
Stuart, RLine86Man
I think I remember an extension by cutting into the rock. They had to be extended to accomodate ten car trains.
I remember locals at a maximum of six cars prior to the station extensions.
The Brighton Local stations could accomodate 8 cars. In fact, I believe the entire BMT where subway cars were used (i.e., not els like Myrtle) could accomodate 8 cars, except Franklin Shuttle, which could only take 6.
All BMT stations were probably built to similar specifications as the eastern division is today. Most stations were designed for 8 X 67' trains.
Very well, my memory from when I was seven is not perfect. I guess that the stations were extended to accomodate ten car trains way back in 1965. Well bring on the R32's.
I believe that the tail track south of Chambers St. station also wasn't long enough for 8 car trains (even though the platforms were), so the Myrtle-Chambers and Franklin-Nassau lines had a max of 6 67' cars.
-- Ed Sachs
Yes, Beverley and Cortelyou did have to be extended by excavating the sides of the cut. But Newkirk required realignment of the local tracks, so this was the excuse for two-tracking the line.
Oh boy do I remember that !
I also remember when the station lenghtening was finished and the weekend when the tracks were reconfigured back to normal.
I remember the temporary shuttle bus stop on East 16th St & Newkirk, the curb was painted in a broken yellow line as opposed to solid yellow. Does anyone remember the shuttle bus and which stations in stopped at during the changeover ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I remember the 1980's skip stop setup, which baffled me because most of the time midday GO's forced both trains to run on the express track in one direction or the other. I didn't see why the express tracks couldn't be used full time.
I also remembered the 1994-95 overpass reconstruction project where temporary wooden platforms were built on all stations south of Ave. H so that all trains could run on the express tracks and work could proceed on the steel structures underneath the local tracks.
That isn't the only time they did that with the overpass reconstruction...I can think of possibly at least two more instances where they did that...and with the CWR that's been installed on the Brighton ROW, it means a pain in the arse in the works!!
Stuart, RLine86Man
And here's a photo from that period:
Did they have an R-16 at the north end of the train? Actually they would have had to have an R-16 at the north end of the train since the R-27/30s were arranged in married pairs.
#3 West End Jeff
Ah, you think that's a 3-car train? You can't see the front of the train because it's switched over to the local on the diversion track.
That train is 8 cars, so no need for a single R16.
The train is moving from the express to the local tracks via a temporary connection. In 1994, a similar connection from local to express existed south of Ave. H.
There may have been a switch between Newkirk and Ave. H but I do not remember it.
I do remember the later one you mentioned.
I think someone once mentioned that there were switches near Newkirk Ave at one time.
Sometimes photos can be deceiving. It looked like a 3 car train in the picture because it was taken at a certain angle.
#3 West End Jeff
In 1964, R16s only ran on the Eastern Division (mostly on the #15, now J, Jamaica line). They didn't start mixing R16s with R27/30s until after the Chrystie St connection opened in 1967.
-- Ed Sachs
I did not see any R16 on Brighton until the QJ days of post 11/67.
That's an 8-car R-27/30 train. The QB ran on weekends and late nights in those days, and all weekend service by then was provided by R-27/30s.
That picture brings back memories which I did not even know that I had. I remember all the local stations being extended.
I also remember the quaint pedestrian bridge halfway between Newkirk and Ave. H which I used to spend hours on, watching trains pass underneath. Alas, the bridge has been long closed just as the Canarsie line RR crossing has been closed. Another of my old hangouts.
The Glenwood Rd bridge gone? Too bad. It linked the two halves of the Midwood Park area together.
Glenwood Rd. bridge. That was the street. Last time I went by, the bridge was still there, but it was closed to all pedestrian traffic. It has been for years.
This could be done to three stations on the Sea Beach, so they can have express service on a par with (MY) Brighton Line. We should all share the joy of Express service. It is not for just the "chosen" few ie. Brighton riders.
Sea Beach ridership doesn't warrant express/local service. Brighton ridership does.
What you say may have merit. Though... When I lived at Ave. P two blocks from the Culver station, I was also six blocks from the Sea Beach Kings Highway station and occasionally took the N to work just for fun. It is possible that more people who live between stations in Bensonhurst would take a Sea Beach express if the center tracks were used and enough time was saved to warrant walking an extra block or two.
Here's a mixed bag of events from 1964
Bebruary 21- Last IRT Lo-V's run in mainline service on the # 3. Lo-VM's continue to run on the Bowling Green Shuttle. Lo-VT's continue to run on the 3 Avenue El. All motor cars on the el are either World's Fair Steinways or standard Steinways.
April 21- Fire on at Grand Central Station on the IRT Shuttle destroys R-17's 6595,6597 and 6601 and R-22 7740 on Track 3. Also destroyed is the automated train on track 4, R22's 7509,7513 and 7516.
April 16- R-12 5801 laid up on the center track between Times Square and 34 Street on the IRT is badly damaged by fire.
Larry,RedbirdR33
April 21-Wasn't that the fire CAUSED by the so-called "automated train" that the TA was experimenting with for the shuttle's future???
Stuart, RLine86Man
Stuart: The fire seems to have originated underneath the then wooden platform that covered track 2. The damage to the 4 car shuttle on track 3 was so servere that the cars had to be cut up on the spot. The damage to the 3 car automated shuttle on track 4 was extensive but it was possible to to tow those cars out. I remember seeing at least two of them several years later on the backside of the Westchester Square Yard. Of course they never saw revenue service again.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Word is that some workers, fearing the implications of automated trains might have on their job status, started this fire, with the limited intention of destroying the automation equipment. But this has never been proven.
Hmmmm....and seeing the picture that was on this site's page regarding this entire project...it sounds like a true, TRUE disaster in the annals of the subway---besides the WTC station collapse and the Malbone Street and 14th Street/Union Square wrecks.
Stuart, RLine86Man
During the 1964-65 World's Fair five of the R-36 Bluebirds running on the #7 were named for states.
9440-Rhode Island
9744-State of Missouri
9748-Commonwealth of Massachusetts
9762-State of Vermont
9766-State of Kansas
Larry,Redbird R33
They had the state seals on the sides, didn't they? CI Peter
Peter: I know that some of them did.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I never realise how old I am sometimes...I am older than the cars we're putting to rest. The first year of the Worlds Fair was like the first year or two of Freedomland. Everything eventually slides downhill in New York City but if we didn't have something common to gripe about the city would never be THE CITY. CI Peter
There only was about a year or two of Freedomland, despite all the hype while it was open (making it the Enron of amusement parks, I guess). One day it's touted as the next best thing to a trip to Disneyland, the next day, Co-Op City.
Here's a link to Freedomland. I remember going there a few times as a child. Had there had been an el or subway out there I would have gone more often.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robfriedman/
Freedomland actually lasted almost six years -- opened in 1959, and made it just about to 1965.
As for it being "next best thing to a trip to Disneyland", that is quite true. Believe it or not, a good handful of the folks who originally designed Disneyland were involved in planning Freedomland. Many things done at Freedomland were begun by Disneyland as far as operations policies, etc.
Having been to both parks (I live ten minutes from Disneyland and go there quite frequently with an annual pass), I see a lot of similarities in the places, even though it's been almost 40 years since Freedomland died.
I have heard stories that part of Freedomland's demise was due to some sort of sweetheart real estate deal on the sale of the land for Co-op City, but I forget what the source of that was.
Being only into the mid single digits during Freedomland's reign, I wasn't much into the business asepct of it, only the fact that in terms of media hype, it ran neck-and-neck with Pallasades Amusement Park as far as publicity during the summers of the early 1960s went. Then, almost overnight, it was gone (hence the Enron refrence in the other post...).
Yes, that was the root of Freedomland's demise -- according to what was written in a book by the man who was their personnel director and later became the head of personnel training at Disneyland.
The final "nails in the coffin" were driven by the World's Fair being open, drawing away the patronage of Freedomland.
Yes, they did....as well as the names. If I remember correctly (and everyone remembering this sort of stuff is an old fart, so our memories tend to stutter now and then...) the Rhode island car had its lettering in orange, Massachusetts was in black, Kansas was gold, and Vermont was green.
The lettering on RI car was black.
and as it's northern terminus (as seen in the pic) had in BIGGGGGG letters "WORLD'S FAIR [and ya gotta problem with dat?!]" :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
and as it's northern terminus (as seen in the pic) had in BIGGGGGG letters "WORLD'S FAIR [and ya gotta problem with dat?!]" :-D
Yeah, I do... the northern terminus of that car should'a been Main St & Roosevelt Ave-- in Pawtucket, RI! :D
What was that about extending the 7?
Hmmm, I don't know why I was thinking orange....
Maybe I ought to check what I was smoking way back then.
There was also one other car, not named for a state.
9658 was done for Neighborhood Youth Corps. It had white panels with black and red lettering between the doors.
I heard there was a fee of sorts for the state's identity for placement on the car, but most states didn't go for it and only the 5 mentioned participated. Is this true ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, you are correct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought Bluebirds were something else. I don't think the R-36 fleet was avian when it was any color other than red.
Mark
The Bluebirds were BMT articulating units based on the design of the PCC streetcar and built by Clark. Their parts were interchangeable with PCC streetcar parts. 50 units were ordered, but the order was abruptly canceled while the first five units were being built. Those five were delivered along with the original prototype, but that was it. They ran mostly on the Canarsie line when they did run, and spent most of their days at Fresh Pond Yard. The Bluebirds were retired in 1956 and scrapped soon afterwards. None were saved.
IIRC the WF R-36s were also referred to as Bluebirds owing to their original teal-and white paint scheme.
*IIRC the WF R-36s were also referred to as Bluebirds owing to their original teal-and white paint scheme*
Yes, and there's one in the (temporarily closed) NY Transit Museum. In it's original paint color and flooring tile.
Stuart, RLine86Man
Just flip ahead to March on Bill's Subway Calendar for a great shot of those BMT "Blue Birds".
BTW, I did like the arch roof light blue & white colors very much too.
Mr rt__:^)
I seem to remember other cars with the names of other states. In particcular, I believe their was one named for ARKANSAS. Does anyone else remember this or am I suffereing from Clintonian Memory Warp?
Hmmmmm.....now that you mention it, I seem to remember such a car too.
whaaaaaaaaaaat??
no califronia ???.....man i have been ripped off !!
In 1963 the Disneyland was still new. 2002 has Train Dude Land. CI Peter
Over the years some subway trains have regularly run with two car consists. I can recall a few:
IRT 9 Avenue El 167 Street Shuttle
IRT #9 Dyre Avenue Local (with gate cars,no less)
IRT Rt SS Bowling Green Shuttle (Lo'VM,R-12)
BMT #5 Culver Shuttle (Two A Types)
SOAC Train
I'm sure that there are others. Please add to the list.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Frankln Avenue Shuttle (S) Currently rus 2 car trains.
I only recently road that thing for the first time, and it seemed more like a light rail operation than subway... oi gevault.
The word is rode not road.
And it is oy gevalt not oi gevault. You must be from England or something.
bloody limeys!
oh yea !!
the 2 car trains on saturday !! sunday !!
& they always ran the most run down &
oldest cars !!! woooo......
same thing with the red line & others here in
los angeles ....
so there !
In Atlanta, the Bankhead trains on the blue line have two cars. Also, here in Philadelphia, the Broad-Ridge Spur trains are a two-car affaris.
Mark
Two-car trains are common on our light rail line. They do run 3-car trains during peak hours from Mineral Ave. to 18th St. and during special events. The only reason they don't run 3-car trains all day long (goodness knows we can use them, ridership is that good) is simple: not enough cars. Siemens is supposed to be delivering 6 new units anytime now for service on the new spur line, and 12 more were ordered a year ago. Single-car trains are almost never used anymore; the only time I've seen any recently was during split weekend service on the northern half of the line. Trains were looping at 14th St. on the normally unused loop turnout.
I spoke too soon about all trackwork for the new spur line being in place. There are still a few missing segments at the shuttle junction switch. RTD just announced that light rail will be running a split service during weekends in February for switch installation along W. Colfax Ave. I am speculating that they want to put in a crossover switch on the original line before the Colfax at Auraria station, but frankly I don't know. It'll give me something to do one of these weekends.
>>BMT #5 Culver Shuttle (Two A Types)<<
I have a black & white slide taken on the upper level West 8th St looking down at a 2 car BMT Standard train, this was before the Oct 1954 IND invasion.
My friend told me the train was light and being sent to Stillwell to make an add. Unless it was a Sunday shuttle from Kings Highway, which I doubt.
BTW - The Trump apartment bldgs aren't in the picture, but rather some long gone wood frame homes.
Bill "Newkirk"
My friend told me the train was light and being sent to Stillwell to make an add.
I agree with your friend that it was not an in-service train but "adds" (usually one, two or three cars) usually came from Stillwell Yard and wouldn't be on the upper level of W8 (or lower level, either, for that matter).
I'm not familiar with any shuttles from Kings Highway, Sunday or otherwise.
Here in Chicago, the Skokie Swift (Yellow Line) runs two-car trains full-time. The Green, Blue, Brown and Purple lines run two-car trains during late evening / overnight hours, particularly on weekends.
-- David
Chicago, IL
How come the Brown and Blue were running full length trains that Sunday I was there? I remember the Green was running two.
Salaam: MARTA runs a two car train on the Bankhead line only, because Bankhead is only a two car station. That train is annoying during rush hour. No other line runs a two car train, ever.
You were here during daytime, and both the Brown and Blue lines have pretty high ridership. If you had stuck around until around midnight, then you would have likely seen two-car trains on those lines.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Red Line used to run 2-car trains during nights and Sunday mornings.
Back in the 60s and 70s (maybe even into the 80s), the Skokie Swift (yellow line) and Evanston (purple line) ran single car trains.
Going back further to the early 50s, single car trains ran on the Kenwood branch shuttle.
Also, going back in Brooklyn history to pre-1940, single car shuttle trains ran on the Bay Ridge (3rd Ave) branch of the 5th Ave. El.
-- Ed Sachs
Oh yeah, we had a T/O tried to run a 1/2 car train on the Lexington ave line just north of 14th St. he later failed the pee-in-a-cup test.
avid
I rode on a single-car Evanston train in 1979.
Revenue Collector
(RT7307 or so?)
this is true in other places besids nyc ...
Perhaps this should be done with the Rockaway Park / Broad Channel shuttle in the Wee hours of the night and weekends?
Maybe those duces from the former six car "G" trains? What about the three car sets of R/110Bs for the late night Lefferts shuttle?
Food for thought ?
avid
Why not?
To answer your question in spirit, if not exactly, single car "trains" with elevated equipment on at least two runs, Norton's Point Route and Third Avenue Brooklyn Shuttle.
Paul: Regarding the Norton's Point run did trains use the present day elevated structure at Coney Island for this? I remember that it was possible to look east from platform D (West End Line) and that there were a few building with cut out roofs. Marty said that this was the route taken by the West End trains to ramp down to the street, that was a few years back and I may not have understood him correctly.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, the structure was set up so as to allow Culver trains to bypass Coney Island Terminal and continue by ramp and surface on to Norton's Point, duplicating the same surface operation.
For whatever reason, this wasn't done and elevated service on Norton's Point ended 10/1919, six months before the Culver trains which might have taken advantage of the connection used the new structure.
Ironically (I guess) it was the Culver Line that once went to the west end of Coney Island, not the West End Line. I'm not certain what feature of operation or location caused the Brooklyn Bath and Coney Island to change its name to BB & West End.
Paul: So the Culver Line would have continued straight rather than turning right into the terminal. That makes a lot more sense. The other route would have required West End trains to make an extremely sharp right turn in the middle of the platform,more or less.Thanks you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So the Culver Line would have continued straight rather than turning right into the terminal.
Actually, both. This was a holdover from surface operation, where most Culver trains terminated at Culver Depot while others could travel west on the surface on the same alignment as the current double-decker el, then continue on what became the Norton's Point right-of-way right into Sea Gate.
When I first moved to the DC area in '96 I rode a 2-car train on WMATA's Blue Line. I haven't see any WMATA trains shorter than 4-cars since.
Wayne
The Yards will be airing on STARZ! Network
on FEB 8 and FEB 9 2002... Check listings
for exact show times in your area...
[courtesy: www.tvguide.com]
The Yards
115 min.
A topflight supporting cast complements
Mark Wahlberg in this gritty 2000 crime drama.
Wahlberg plays Leo Handler, an ex-con from Queens who took the fall for some felonious friends. When he returns to the old neighborhood, hoping to stay on the straight and narrow, he takes a low-level job fixing subway cars for a New York City firm headed by his corrupt uncle (James Caan). But before long, Handler takes to the mean streets with his shady pal Willy (Joaquin Phoenix)---and winds up in even more trouble.
Cast: Mark Wahlberg, Joaquin Phoenix, Charlize Theron, James Caan, Ellen Burstyn, Faye Dunaway, Victor Argo, Tony Musante, Steve Lawrence, Andrew Davoli, Chad Aaron, Tomas Milian, Robert Montano, Victor Arnold, Louis Guss
Rating: R
It's a good film, apart from the obvious subway interest. It's supposedly based on a true story.
Yeah but except for one small scene filmed at (I think) 207th St. Shops there is almost NO actual subway content in the film. "The Yards" of the title are parts of Sunnyside Yard, and some old LIRR coaches.
A big waste of time if you want to see a lot of subway action.
There are scenes on board a #6 leaving the tunnel near Bruckner Expressway. There are a couple scenes inside one of the shops (not sure which one) but they look like they were unauthorized, shot from the door at the end of the building.
And the rest of the scenes depicting some "old subway cars" were done in Sunnyside using old LIRR 1955-vintage P-S coaches!
Today, I rode an R38 (A) train and going to school on Chambers Street. My train approached 34th St-Penn Station southbond when it caught me by surprise...a Queens-bound R46 (R) train!!! My mouth dropped so low, my lips touched the nasty St Louis Car R38 floors...yuck! Then, while bypassing 23rd St, it hit me again by surprise...a Queens-bound R46 (V) train!!!! I was like...WHAT THE F**K IS GOING ON HERE???? Then, at West 4th St, an R32 Brightliner (F) train popped up on the northbound 8th Av local track...after that, the day was over...this all happened between 9:00 and 9:15am...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
CTP Webmaster
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
Welcome to the club.
Maybe a problem at 34th street and Broadway caused 6th ave trains to go up 8th (the V and F) and Broadway trains to run via the F from Stillwell (the R).
As for the other lines, who knows. Sounds like a real mess. With this whole World Trade Summit going on there will probably be station closures and frozen zones. I'm staying out of Manhattan until it's over. Hopefully there won't be any riots.
A major correction, the R does NOT run from Stillwell, but from Bay Ridge. I don't think there's any way for an R going up 4th ave to make it to the IND, other than the closed Manny B northside.
It would have had to come from Coney Island (via the F) or via the IND Fulton line. Probably an R that got rerouted going Manhattan bound found itself on the IND via 53rd street, then went to the F and reversed in Brooklyn and back to Queens via the IND 8th ave line and 53rd street.
It's not likely, but it could have gone along the J/M/Z tracks and used the Chrystie St. connector to get to 6th Avenue.
Not likely at all, because it would have had to reverse at Essex St. R46 can't cross the Williamsburg Bridge.
-Hank
R-46s can cross the Williamsburg Bridge per se; the reason they don't is clearance issues on one or both ends.
Many years ago on the D train from Brooklyn to Manhattan i was on a R-44 which was rerouted non stop from DeKalb Ave to Broadway Lafayette via Nassau Street. It can and has been done
Thank You
Could a 75 ft. set go to Canarsie via Willie B.? The old KK/K line.
avid
If there is a clearence issue on both ends, it can't make it to the bridge in the first place.
You gotta go past Essex onto the bridge WRONG RAIL to reverse into the Chrystie cut that way, which means you have to deal with traffic locking and holding up the whole Broadway El.
It was an R46, '75 cars cannot go on eastern div.
Maybe it was sent via 8 Ave southbound, and had turned around to head back to Queens?