To The List:
Am thinking strongly of wandering across the Hudson next weekend for the first time since 9-11 (you know what the President said about not being afraid...).
So, does anyone know if the NCS is running on Saturdays & Sundays yet, or if not when it will?
Thanks in advance.
Regards and Happy Holidays,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It will probably run weekends after they open the extension.
I do not live in New York. I have been reading in subtalk about the connection between the 63rd street tunnel line and the Queens Boulevard line. It was supposed to be in service by November. When I look at the NYC subway map on their website the connection is not shown. What is the delay?
The 9/11 thing.It should be done in November.
Sorry December
9/11 had something to do with the delay. In addition, there is a shortage of cars on the B division which may also have played a role.
I'm excited about the fact that there will be an extra tunnel connecting Queens and Manhattan. Once the TA works the kinks out, it should be a great benefit to us all.
Yes, the car shortage. Some on this list deny there is one, others say the fleet needs to be increased by a full third.
9/11 added stresses to the TA. Coping with the loss of west branch of the Montague tube as well as the demolition of the post-Chambers West Side IRT and the consequent effing-up of West Side IRT service is enough for us grunts to forgive the suits: they did have to divert themselves and their employees to unexpected (and terrible) duties.
It was a combination of the September 11 incident and the need to make changes identified during the "simulated service" on September 8 (remember that? E/F/R/V service was operated for much of the day on a Saturday...). There STILL is no "car shortage" in the classic sense. The fleet will be stretched until the R-143s are up and running, for sure, but there are enough cars to provide the scheduled amount of service on all BMT/IND lines (I will not get into whether the scheduled amount is sufficient--that's been hammered to death).
David
[September 8 (remember that? E/F/R/V service was operated for much of the day on a Saturday...)]
I was at the Transit festival in Hoboken until 11AM that day. I missed the PATH to 33rd Street, so I took the train to WTC and caught the E train there. When the train got to Roosevelt, I saw a V train of R40 slants across the platform.
Strange... that was the last time I passed through the WTC concourse. There was supposed to be a Customer Appreciation Day on 9/13 (according to some stuff I got in Hoboken from PATH), but with what happed on 9/11, it wasn't to be.
According to an answer to a question that I previously posted, we'll see R-32s on the F!
I think Zman and Bill from Maspeth always stress the "car shortage" argument when discussing the possibility of extending one of the local services on Queens Blvd to 179.
I have a better idea. Instead of all those n/b R-44's sitting on the local tracks, waiting to enter Continental during PM rush, why not send one of those lines to 179 where there would be much less congestion? In the time spent waiting, and waiting, and then emptying the train, you could run the local all the way to 179.
Also, does the M line really need 8 cars? Take two cars off every M train, and you'll have an extra two or three trains for the Queens corridor.
First off, there are never any R-44s waiting to enter Continental Avenue. They run only on the A and the Rockaway Shuttle. Perhaps these would be R-46s?
Secondly, there are not enough cars available to run, say, R service to 179th Street without cutting service frequency. The longer the line, the more cars are needed to maintain the same headway. It's unlikely that significant "terminal holdout" time is built into the current schedules (I'd have to check with the schedulers), so sitting outside Continental results in the train being late arriving and possibly leaving as well, not in time that could be spent traveling to and back from 179th Street.
Third, last I checked, J/M/Z riding was down since the Williamsburg Bridge reconstruction project necessitated removal of trains from the bridge over the summer 3 or so years ago. It MAY BE possible to cut train lengths on these lines to 6 cars without causing overcrowding, but I'm not sure how that would play politically -- such things tend to be viewed as service cuts (which, arguably, they are).
David
When you add in the time it takes for a G or R train to be cleared out and relayed at Continental, it could be more than half way to 179th st. That's what I don't understand. Why are so many cars wasting time at Continental being cleared out, and relayed, when they can be on the road? How many additional TPH would be needed to run the current headways if the R or G were to extend to 179th?
The same train that has to be cleared out and relayed at Continental Avneue would have to be cleared out and relayed at 179th Street.
As to how many trainsets, let's see: Round-trip running time, Continental Avenue-179th Street via local in the AM peak is 26 minutes (we'll assume that the amount of time scheduled for clearing/relaying is the same at 179th Street as it is at Continental). R AM peak service is approximately on a 6-minute headway. 26 divided by 6 is just over 4, so a fifth trainset has to be put into the cycle unless two minutes can be taken out of the clearing/relaying time. G AM peak service is approximately on a 10-minute headway. 26 divided by 10 is 2.6, so a third trainset has to be put into the cycle unless six minutes can be taken out of the clearing/relaying time (unlikely). So, either 5 600' trains or 3 300' trains would have to be scrounged up from somewhere. And remember, the G is not going to be running to Continental Avenue in the rush hours -- it'll be replaced by the V, which will be operating 9 trains an hour (roughly four 600' trainsets if extended to 179th Street).
As I and others have said on this board many, many times, the BMT/IND fleet is being stretched to its limits just by running the V, even after accounting for the cutback of G service to Court Square. Subway cars don't just magically appear.
And there's another issue here. The only stations served exclusively by one train on the Queens Boulevard Line are 179th Street, 169th Street, Parsons Boulevard, and Sutphin Boulevard. In 1999, the turnstile registrations at those stations were as follows:
179th Street: 6,890,494 (systemwide ranking: 38)
169th Street: 2,299,405 (155)
Parsons Boulevard: 1,929,766 (180)
Sutphin Boulevard: 1,304,930 (254)
What I get out of this is that 179th Street is one of the busiest stations in the system -- but it's also the terminal and trains come into it empty. The rest of the stations are in the middle of the pack of a 468-station system. Even if the cars could be found, I still have questions: Is more service than what is currently being provided required? Is it worth lengthening a route (with the knowledge that the longer a route gets, the less reliable it tends to become) to have the use of what may or may not be a better terminal facility?
I say, work on getting the Continental Avenue terminal to run as efficiently as it should, even under the constraint of having to clear trains before relaying them.
David
One time I asked someone clearing trains at Continental why there was so much congestion. He told me, "they're cutting G trains for the weekend".
They don't directly cut them. They take the trains they have sitting around in the yard, cut them and release them in 4 car sets while taking in the 6 car Gs. Every Friday night after about 7:30 PM you see 4 car Gs running the QB local, conductor in the rear car.
Strangely, Monday morning Gs are 6 cars long.
It's Official: December 16, 2001, the 63rd St. Connector service plan is activated.
The F train will run express from 21 St.-Queensbridge to Forest Hills at all times; the E train will provide local service at night; the V train will replace the F, running local from Manhattan to Forest Hills via the 53rd Street tunnel. The G train will run to Court St weekday day hours, and will run to Forest Hills during the hours when the V does not run (throughout the weekend, and weekday nights 8:30 PM-5AM). Free MetroCard transfers will be available for stations not physically connected in Long Island City, and also in Manhattan when transferring between Lex/63rd St and Lex/59th Street.
MTA brochures are available at token booths, and you may also go to the Straphangers' Campaign website to look at a copy of the MTA brochure.
I believe the new brochure is also on the MTA website. It was posted here recently as well.
Is the G line the only line on the system that will have better Weekend and Night service than weekdays and rush hour?
It is now the stepchild of the subway.........December 16th it will be an ORPHAN!!
Better in what sense? The 4 has a longer night route than day route, stretching further into Brooklyn.
Until 7/22 the 4th ave local had better weekend service than middays.
Nights and weekends 75th ave and Briarwood get "better service" (more lines) than middays and rush hours.
The Far Rockaway A branch has shorter headways in the middle of the night than in the middle of the day.
Well this sucks!
MetroCard.CitySearch.com will stop accepting new orders as of December 1, 2001. Current subscription orders will be processed through December 31, 2001.
Click on the Check Your Account Page to check the status of your account. Our customer service remains available to answer your questions.
Visit www.mta.info for information on how to purchase MetroCard from a location near you.
Thank you for the opportunity to serve you.
--Mike
Bad links Mike - they just take you back to the Subtalk index page.
I can't do a linik but here is the URL
http://metrocard.citysearch.com.
I am curious to know why they are ending this service. I am an infrequent customer and send them an email asking why.
I'll bet it has to do with all the Metrocard machines.
I never understood the profit model for this service. No service
charge, and mailing included?
Reminds me of the old saying, "We lose money on every customer,
but make it up in volume!"
I assumed they were under contract from the MTA.
They probably regarded it as a 'loss leader' at the time they did the contract -- people who visited the site to order MetroCards, which they made no profit on, would use the site for other things and that would generate a profit. Remember, the service started back when conventioal wisdom said the dot coms and web-based service companies would rule the world by 2001...
Evidently; that contract went out for bid again last month.
Fascinating. Let's hope it's awarded soon!
--Mike
They do get a commision on every sale, just like all retailers. It's not much, but better then a sharp stick in the eye.
Mr rt__:^)
Todd seems to be talking about the service we used to provide at this depot. When the volume went down we asked nycDOT to let us out of the business.
BTW, "We LOST money on every customer ..." but it was a SERVICE that the public came to expect from us since we sold Express "tickets".
Mr rt__:^)
Yeah, I know the links were bad--I didn't fix the URLs when I lifted the HTML. But that info pretty much sums it up, so I didn't repost it. I will now.
Sorry for any inconvenience.
--Mike
Hmmm -- I placed a $23 order with them the day before Thanksgiving. The site claims it shipped on 11/23 but I haven't received it yet, and now it looks like there isn't much of a customer service presence in case it never arrives. Has anyone else been waiting a while for a shipment?
This may not be the answer at all, but my incoming mail in Manhattan got quite delayed in November. It took over 2 weeks for Metro-North tickets I ordered on the web to reach me. I was getting my weekly magazines up to a week late, and catalogs from department stores for 1- and 2-day-only sales got to me after the sales were finished. Things are returning to normal now, but I'm still getting the occasional old piece of mail mixed in with my current mail.
Actually, you have a good point. I just got a credit card statement dated 11/21 in today's mail. I suppose I shouldn't worry too much just yet about three MetroCards mailed out two days later. (And the MetroCards come from Texas -- I wonder why the USPS doesn't give a discount, at least to mass mailers, for mail sent locally.)
I wonder why the USPS doesn't give a discount, at least to mass mailers, for mail sent locally.
Think they're not allowed to by statute. If they did that (pricing more reflecting costs/demand) communities in places like Alaska would pay several dollars each for first class mail, whereas the intent of the original Postal Service was to knit the country together. Hence equitable pricing regardless of cost or distance.
Oh, phooey. Yet another government-mandated subsidy for the boonies. Hasn't anyone heard of rewarding people for making efficient choices in life?
Oh, phooey. Yet another government-mandated subsidy for the boonies. Hasn't anyone heard of rewarding people for making efficient choices in life?
I suspect the mandate is probably 150 years old, back when what we now know as the 50 states were considerably less unified by culture and communications than they are now. It was a nation-building exercise. And I suspect changing it might be very challenging. Alaska has exactly as many senators as New York does.
I suspect the mandate is probably 150 years old, back when what we now know as the 50 states were considerably less unified by culture and communications than they are now.
Originally there were differences in the rates for first class mail based on distance, but in 1863 a uniform rate was established for first class mail regardless of the distance carried. Westward expansion, albeit slowed somewhat by the War, was being officially encouraged by the government of the northern states, and this was part of that effort. Since that time the only significant exception to this rate was the "drop letter" rate for mail deposited at a post office or an associated postal drop box for delivery at that post office (picked up by the addressee, not delivered to their address). This rate was in effect for only a few years in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, I agree. It's just amazing how much money we ship off to the rest of the country to promote wastefulness.
The shipment arrived yesterday.
One of the cards expires 12/31/01. Whoops. Time to find myself an MVM with the trade-in feature.
Had a customer complain the other day that her new card got stuck in one of our fare boxes. Driver did a "Road Call" on the bus & our Farebox Mech. found the card, but it came up expired when he dipped it. Hmmm, another City Search customer ?
Mr rt__:^)
Maybe someone forgot to rotate the stock. I received five fun passes from them all dated Oct. 2002.
A repost with working URLs....
Welcome to MetroCard on CitySearch.com--MTA New York City Transit's only online merchant of subway and bus fare media.
MetroCard.CitySearch.com will stop accepting new orders as of December 1, 2001. Current subscription orders will be processed through December 31, 2001.
Click on the Check Your Account Link to check the status of your account. Our customer service center remains available to answer your questions.
Visit http://www.mta.info/metrocard/index.html for information on how to purchase MetroCard from a location near you.
Thank you for the opportunity to serve you.
When is the next subtalklive
Tonight, 7:30 ET.
If i shoot a video of the # 1 train this summer i will have to do it with a motorman who will allow me to shoot it from inside the
motormans cab because they are running R62 ( transverse cabs ) on the # 1 train all the way to where the # 3 used to run ...
Aint that right ?? ............comments please i would like the information is anyone knows it thank you ... ...lol!!
If you're lucky, you'll get some equipment from the Livonia yard that doesn't have a transverse cab...They're running on the 1, sparingly.
Some of the 1's equipment has railfan windows now. Wait for a train with blue stripes on the outside and it may (or may not) have a narrow cab.
FWIW, the 1 and 3 both run exclusively R-62A's. The R-62 is used only on the 4.
About the Canal Street Subway station for the J/M/Z lines (Brown Lines) or Nassau Street Subway Lines, is the current Queens Bound platform going to be closed in the near future? If so, is there a prediction on what month, year will this platform be closed?
First they got to tear down the wall and recconect the track there. Doses anyone know when that track was mad into a stub end track?
It always was a stub-ended track. At one time Canal was intended as a terminal station for one of the lines; not sure how long it may have actually served as such, or if it ever did (possibly a rush-hour turnback in its early years). All I can ever remember those tracks being used for was OOS layups - and that's been decades ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember when there was a rush hour service from Canal to Atlantic Ave. on the Canarsie line - early-mid '60's. I think it was called the Broadway short line or something like that.
14-Broadway Brooklyn Local
That was the train that made the local station stops permitting the Jamaica train to run express from Eastern Parkway to Essex St with only one stop in between.
correct
Until 1990 (IIRC), the J ran all the way to Broad on weekends. In 1990 it was cut back to Canal. Two years later it was extended one stop to Chambers. During those two years, it used the "express" tracks.
First they're going to tear down the dividing wall then what?
Peter Dougherty drew the new proposed track configuration in his book. Maybe he'll let us see it for free! :) Just kidding, Pete. Buy his book. It's worth it. I'll look over the map and come back and explain exactly what they're doing, if it hasn't been explained already.
Ok, I want to know when are they going to ever make little toy trains (not models) of New York City Cars. Like a 10 car set of toy Redbirds/ R-62, R-142, R-40, R-143, R-68, R32/38 and maybe older models. I think they would sell quickly. When I was younger I searched high and low for toy trains to play with instead of Thomas the Tank Engine toys. So if they exist tell me where I can find them, if not we got to make the suggestions.
What do you define as toy.
Three rail tin plate, Lionel,MTH,K-Line, Williams, and Weaver and others.
MTH makes R/42s as "E" and "D" trains. They have R/21 Redbirds and are do for R/32 pre GOH cars. Down the road are R/17 Blue stripe and Grey. They have a PCC trolley.
K-Line had L.I.R.R. commuter and diesel sets.
Atlas has a similar Commet Push-Pull commuter set.
Willians has Metroliner Amtrac,Penn and I think NJTransit.
Lionel has had a variety of MU54s, Penn, Lackawanna,New Haven,ILL Cent, Reading and Long Island
A wide range of manufactures made or are making Budd RDCs.
MTH also put out a handfull of Doodlebugs.
Whats your Pleasure?
Its only money and availability.
Good Luck.
avid
I mean the toy train that kids would use with out electricity that you move with your hands. That 3 years olds can play with. Not complecated $150 trains.
There are not many 3 year olds that want a push-pull or wind-up toy R-62.
Oh no???
You don't have kids, do you?
You'd be surprised what they DO ask for....
There are also those cheesy-looking tinplate R-12's from Marx, which sell for about $300
I thought they were CTA type transit.
avid
They are actually IRT el cars. They do look cheesey but they list for nearly $400.00. I've been trying to score a set on e-bay but they never go cheap. Apparently the people shopping on e-bay know something. Anyway, at $400 a set, I don't think that they qualify as a kids' toy.
Don't they have a 3 car trainset at FAO Shwartz?
If so, I'm not aware of it. What have you heard about it?
avid
The Post has a short story and the News a longer one on the approval of $15 million for the LIRR East Side Access project, and another $2 million for the (latest) Second Ave. subway study project.
From a political standpoint, the funding differences make sense, since the House is controlled by Republicans, Pataki is up for re-election next year and he needs Long Island votes, because Cuomo or McCall will win in New York City. (It's also why the extra WTC relief money Bush promised New York will get next year more than likely will get through, because of Pataki's re-election bid and Bloomberg's election as mayor).
It's also interesting to note that neither article on the Second Ave. line metions any talk about a "Stubway" anymore. At least that's a little progress, though as I posted in another thread, the full Second Ave. funding is far more likely to come if the MTA uses the Nassau St. loop, because then it can go to Washington and say the project is part of the WTC downtown rebuilding effort.
From a political standpoint, the funding differences make sense, since the House is controlled by Republicans, Pataki is up for re-election next year and he needs Long Island votes, because Cuomo or McCall will win in New York City. (It's also why the extra WTC relief money Bush promised New York will get next year more than likely will get through, because of Pataki's re-election bid and Bloomberg's election as mayor).
Hope you're right. Really hope you're right, esp. about the rest of the WTC relief money. I'll believe it when I see it though.
My only caveat would be if Schumer and Hillary join in with Daschle and Gephardt's recent statements that the Bush tax cuts and fiscal policies are to blame for the deficit and the recession (my stocks started going down when the dot-coms went splat in March of 2000 and most people are more concerned right now about terrorism, so I personally don't think this is a real smart strategy).
If both of New York's senators complain long enough and loud enough in an attempt to make the deficit a 2002 campaign issue, House Republicans will just come back and say "O.K., we'll just cut the extra relief funds for New York, and that will help lower the deficit if you're so worried about it."
People like Armey or DeLay don't really want to give New York the extra money next year, but would do so if they thought it would help a Republican get re-elected governor. But give them a excuse not to appropriate the funds while being able to blame it on Senate Democrats, and they will...
I think it's a stretch to consider the 2nd Ave/Nassau Street connector as part of the WTC & downtown rebuilding effort. Bush agreed to $20 Billion for rebuilding. Pataki asked for $50+ Billion, including some upstate rail link and tons of other stuff. This is just the kind of thing that is souring out of state members of congress on the rebuilding proposals. With people like Schumer and Clinton involved it's just going to get uglier. I now get the feeling that to them and others the terrorist attacks and deaths of thousands of Americans has become just another excuse to get the taxpayers to pay for un-related pet projects.
and the tax refunds to GE and others as part of the 'stimulus package' were directly related to WTC???
There two sides to that. You could also argue that, since other people will be trying to remove money from NY's $20 billion, it makes sense to ask for me to make sure we get what we were promised in the first place. It's politics.
The engineering study is worth $200 million, not $2 million. Maybe $2 million of it is coming from a specific pot of money.
I received reports of another R-142 Delivery, last night. Cars 6786-90 have arrived on TA property.
Note: This message is for those who are interested. If you don't see it as releveant, simply ignore it.
-Stef
Thanks Stef, Keep it coming, this information is VERY helpful and relivant to me keeping a tip top Subway Roster on the TransiTALK site.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I'm glad someone appreciates it.
-Stef
Don't be so sensitive since one person (as far as I know), told you that he couldn't care less! Keep it coming!
You're right. I just couldn't help but be annoyed with one knuckle head.
It's fine with me. People can say whatever the f@$% they want.
-Stef
IT ISN'T RELEVANT cuz the trainset probably won't be ready for revenue service. I learn every day from your posts.....and the Redbirds still 'rule the roost' except for the pigeons who fly into the barn and walk inside the R142s. Peter
Well excuse me! Hey Mr. Know It All, why don't you teach me some stuff?
Who the hell said the cars were going into service right away? They go through testing before heading into service. Thanks for pointing out the irrelevance.
-Stef
Stef,
You know *I'm* interested and that's all that really matters :-)
-Dave
Buddy, I thank you with the deepest respect, and I'll keep rolling out those notes.
-Stef
Me too!
HEY: me stupido!!! It's scary because i don't know whats revenue and whats going to be updated in the barn. I like the work..it's not using my skills...but anything the car desk sup gives me is welcome. Stef, the info you post makes me the 'know it all' and the foremen appreciate my interest and peserverance. The 'picks' are to come up this week...I don't know where I stand at the bottom of the list...BUT I do truly appreciate YOUR postings AND the other SubTalkers BECAUSE 'youse guys' give me the 'tweeks' to look and ask. New R142s?....more than half are O/S and I was given the most respnsible and easiest and dirtiest assignment to do: check TBUs and replace the worst of the brake shoes. There's a connection with the first week of Advent and the picks coming up...my faith keeps me going and the SubTalkers support can never be repaid. Peter
Well, SubTalk is the place to learn. And learn you shall....
-Stef
im interested
PS: I'm always interested!
I'll keep it coming...........
Cheers,
Stef
Forgive my sarcasm Stef....we are waiting for these trainsets and we want this new tech work....but the constant deliveries and O/S drives TA management crazy to the point where they put the whole runaround on hold. I want to be able to do a lot more than 'inspections' and all of these deliveries wind up back into the hands of Bombardier and its vendors for more and more modifications. Last week, I had brake inspection on TWO trainsets that were not in for maintainance. Each trainset is over 2 city blocks long, has eighty tread brake units and the work is in a pit underneath that you cannot stand up in. I and my helper changed out 25 brake shoes and the last two were on jammed parking brake units that ate the shoes down to the metal. R142s are far easier to deal with than Redbirds. Peter
Everyone is talking about the second av subway, and how it will cost so damn much but will make commuting easier for the UES. I think there is a transit issue that is much more pressing, and that is the Gowanus Expressway. Its time for it to be replaced, before it collapses like the miller did. take a walk under it in red hook sometime, it looks like the williamsburg bridge did 15 years ago. you could probably break hunks of steel right off of it. should we build a new elevated highway and scar the brooklyn neighborhoods again and spend very little money while having major service delays. or should we tunnel it like a bigger and more costly big dig?? or, of course, we could bandage it to try to hold it together before it eventually caves in. personally, i support the tunneling idea regardless of cost. any ideas???
IMHO tunnels for pollution concentration are not a swift idea. Secondly, my position is millions for transit not one cent for highways(can't remember the guy but the quote is really millions for defense not one cent for tribute)
You wanted to know about the quote "MILLIONS FOR DEFENSE, BUT NOT A CENT FOR TRIBUTE."
– Attributed to Charles Pinckney, American ambassador to France, on Oct. 26, 1797, "in answer to a demand for a $250,000 made on behalf of the French foreign minister Talleyrand before he would allow Pinckney, John Marshall, and Elbridge Gerry to plead America’s case with the French Directory to cease French attacks on our shipping…" Pinckney said what he really said was "not a penny, not a penny." From "Listening to America" by Stuart Berg Flexner (Simon and Schuster, New York, 1982).
This is termed "the XYZ affair", as I recall.
Thanks, my murky reccolletion was that it was Barbary Coast pirates fdemanding payoffs. In any case, my bowdlerization stands. Build rail scrap tarmac.
Actually, 'millions for defence' probably does come from the Barbary Pirates. The XYZ affair was a bribery shakedown by the French Directory, one that really angered President Adams.
Frogs win..Amerika loses with R142s. Gimme Dusseldorf. Peter
Well....I like transit.....but out here in the Isle of Staten, we ain't got much subway beyond SIRT. Lots of us (like me) ride Express Busses. Where d'ya think most of those run...on the Gowannus!!
So we really DO need the Gowannus. Personally, I think we should avoid boondogles like the "big dig", and simply maintain the old "Gowwie". At least that's doable....
Actually, in the past I've posted about a need to bring real rail service (ie: re-open the North Shore Line, connect it to NJ and run something to Penn Station) to Staten Island, but I don't ever expect to see it in my lifetime. A Tenth or Eleventh Avenue Subway is also an pipe dream of mine.....
They've been talking about this for years. I would not support a 'Big Dig' in Brooklyn. That kind of money would be better spent elsewhere.
I'd rebuild it double decker, with more lanes going away from Manhattan than going to it, and with some bus-only lanes.
They've been talking about this for years. I would not support a 'Big Dig' in Brooklyn.
Yeah, but only recently has anyone started to pay attention to the VERY STRONG desire in Brooklyn to have it tunneled to knit back the neighborhood and vastly improve the area and the quality of life of living there. The neighborhood and its elected officials pushed hard to get tunneling included in the project analysis.
That kind of money would be better spent elsewhere.
Depends. Tunnels last a whole lot longer than bridges and require a lot less maintenance. Depends how you prioritize things. And, at least it doesn't impact transit money available (except peripherally as part of total Fed funds).
I'd rebuild it double decker, with more lanes going away from Manhattan than going to it, and with some bus-only lanes.
Well, having lived in SF, double-deckers are a BAD idea. Even minus frequent earthquakes, any collapse or decay can drop stuff onto the lower deck. And a rebuild is likely to be much wider given current Fed design standards requiring full breakdown-lane shoulders (as in the rebuilt Miller Highway over the West Side Freight Yards).
I say let the damm thing collapse. Let all those fussy Staten Islanders who clog the damm Highway suffer on the ferry.Plus Maybe then the 4 th ave corridor will get the respect it deserves.Maybe they could make the N the express it should be.
What about all the "fussy" Brooklyn, Queens and L.I. commuters coming on to the Gowanus from the Belt Parkway. How dare these people use the Gowanus on their way to work every day. I understand why Sunset Park residents are sick of the highway, but it is an intersate (I-278) not some local roadway. If the Gowanus ever would become unusable, 3rd and 4th Avenues in Brooklyn will be overwhelmed with traffic. The DOT has been talking about rebuilding the highway for at least 10 years now. The tunnel proposal is too expensive so it looks like another long drawn out reconstruction project - starting and finishing who knows when.
The last serious talk I heard on this was a plan to turn 3rd and 4th Aves into one-way corridors, with much improved stop lights and with limited access for cross traffic. The Gowanus, then, would be emptied of traffic for the two-some years necessary to demolish and rebuild.
People forget that the Gowanus replaced the very ugly 3rd Ave El.
There is no unobtrusive way to rebuild the Gowanus. Some have suggested building a replacement highway over 2nd or 1st Avenues.
Union Square, that's really NASTY of you to attack us Staten Islanders. We're people, and we took lots of crap (very literally) for years from the rest of the city. I assume you're from the Union Square area. I have nothing but respect for your 'hood, I regularly eat, go to movies, shop, and find all kinds of ways to spend money there. I'm sure I'm not alone- I see lots of folks waiting at the X-bus stops at Bway/13th and Bway/8th.
I've also loved the subway since I was 4 years old, and use it frequently. Bring it out here (like I said elsewhere in this thread), and I'd be there. But I ain't holding my breath. In the meanwhile, we need the old rusty lady on top of 3rd Avenue....
Boston's ineptitude at building the underground road network on time and on budget pretty much has killed the chance for any similar project in Brooklyn, which would require a tunnel dropping back down from the Battery Tunnel/BQE interchange to at least a 40-foot depth to get under the Gowanus. That would be followed immediately by underground flying junctions to clear traffic to and from the Prospect Expressway, which would then have to tunnel under the BMT Fourth Avenue line, because you can't raise the grade fast enough from the end of the canal tunnel to Fourth Ave. to get the highway back above ground and have an interchange in between that would meet modern interstate highway standards.
The tunnel under Third Ave. would be a relative breeze by comparison....until you get to the split at 62nd St., where you'd again run into the problem of getting the connector to the Verrazano either back up to at least ground level or below the BMT Fourth Ave. tracks while dealing with the flying junction between that and the Shore Parkway. Or you could bring it out of the tunnel between the Prospect and Shore Pkwy. interchanges and back up to an elevated level, but that's going to create wall several blocks long between the terminal docks and anything east of Third Ave. where the tunnel emerges.
Given all that, a Gowanus bridge rehab starts to look like the lesser of two evils.
the RPA has a proposal that would reduce a lot of the trickier engineering work. take a look:
http://www.rpa.org/publications/gowanus-intro.html
basically they suggest killing part of shore parkway, tunneling from 72nd st, and letting the prospect interact with the gowanus by way of a rehabbed boulevard along hamilton which would be possible with the demolition of the overhead expressway.
If they're willing to downgrade the Shore and Prospect connections, it would make it a lot easier and would avoid at least one underground conflict with the BMT tracks at Fourth Ave.
Of course, the people living on Ocean Parkway and other areas using the Prospect might not be too happy about having to deal with an updated Hamliton Ave. drawbridge over the Gowanus, depending on the frequency or canal traffic that would cause the bridge to open.
Actually a friend of mine living on Ocean Parkway routinely uses local streets to avoid traffic on Gowanus.
Arti
He probably takes the last exit off the Prospect and uses Hamilton Avenue underneath the Gowanus. That's usually a lot faster than joining the two-lane squeeze upstairs into the BQE.
Sounds right, I'm no expert of Brooklyn geography.
Arti
But sooner or later, Prospect Expy. traffic will have to merge with Gowanus traffic. The RPA proposal simply moves the merge from the south side of the canal to the north side, near the Battery tunnel and BQE interchanges, which may or may not work out better, depending on how they design the entry/exit to and from both highways.
My own feeling is crossing Hamliton Ave. during rush hours will be impossible without a pedstrian overpass because the RPA plan basically creates a four-way interchange near the tunnel, with the Prospect traffic inbound during the AM rush running into the same problems inbound traffic at the Holland Tunnel has (PM rush probably would fare marginally better). Also, the folks on the southwest side of the Carroll Gardens area would NIMBY the thing to death anyway unless the RPA can figure out how to isolate the new boulevard traffic away from taking traffic jam-related detours through their neighborhood (these being the same people who've blocked Culver F express service for the past quarter century).
My own feeling is crossing Hamliton Ave. during rush hours will be impossible without a pedstrian overpass because the RPA plan basically creates a four-way interchange near the tunnel ...
I don't know the area at all. But, after reading almost all their text on the website (but no diagrams, are they in the .PDF?), IIRC, they note specifically that Hamilton Avenue would need to be redesigned and an underpass to get in/out of Red Hook constructed. IIRC.
If you construct an overpass or underpass to connect, say Smith Street with the Red Hook area, you're in effect trading a really high barrier for a low one -- it would be more aesthetically pleasing, but there would still be a barrier between Red Hook and the rest of Brooklyn.
The positive point of doing it would be if both Hamliton Ave. and the underground Gowanus had their own access ramps to both the BQE and the Battery Tunnel, you would eliminate the problem right now of Gowanus traffic south of the Prospect Expy. merge trying to get over into the right lanes for the BQE while Prospect traffic going to the tunnel is trying to cross over into the left lanes. The same would be true the other way -- BQE traffic trying to get to the Prospect has to cross tunnel traffic headed towards the Verazzano and the Shore Pkwy., and under the RPA's plan they wouldn't have that problem. But whether or not that would make a major difference in traffic backups, I don't know.
This suggestion is only perhaps crazy. At least the question should be asked and the bean counters made to calculate the costs.
They talk of a 'big dig' style tunnel under 3rd Av. With the Boston experience, I'd be leery of this: it's the cost of supporting the existing elevated Gowanus
So. What would be the cost differential if they (1) rerouted the 4th Avenue subway from south of 9th St-4th Ave and (2) used the remainder of 4th Ave as the site of the interstate highway tunnel?
Think about it: they'd have a heavy rail line easily linked to a barge terminal to carry away the spoil. They'd be working underground all the time, with no disturbance to the surface. It's essentially cut and cover, but without really disurbing the surface of 4th Ave.
The issue, of course, is maintaining the existing quality of service on the three affected lines. How much would it cost to build an entirely new subway line from the Sea Beach cut to 9th St and/or into the Culver (via Greenwood Cemetery to Prospect Park West). And would this cost offset what re-building along the 3rd Ave alignment (either as a tunnel, or reconstructing the existing elevated structure) will cost?
Food for thought, isn't it.
So. What would be the cost differential if they (1) rerouted the 4th Avenue subway from south of 9th St-4th Ave and (2) used the remainder of 4th Ave as the site of the interstate highway tunnel?
Read the RPA's study. The Gowanus is part of the Interstate system, very little of its traffic could be diverted to mass transit. The need is for a better road, not for substitute rail.
I think you missed my point. I'm asking if it would be cheaper to build a replacement for this stretch of the 4th Av subway elsewhere, and then align the interstate highway tunnel under 4th Av, using the present subway as a staging area.
no. the subway cut has pillars between each track and wouldnt be suitable for highway use. besides, the new gowanus will need to be at least 6 lanes and may be as high as 8 depending on what approach is taken concerning HOV lanes. the 4th ave subway is only 4 tracks and the cost of rerouting the subway, putting the gowanus into and then back out of the tunnel would be ridiculous. as far as replacing the gowanus goes, either replacing the expressway in place or in a tunnel plan similar to the RPA's there really arent many other options.
Carroll Gardens and other Brownstone Brooklyn neighborhoods are as big a bunch of NIMBYS as Garden City, LI. Hey, maybe the 'garden' in the titles is part of what makes 'em NIMBYS? ;-D
Well, you know it's all over when they open up a "Timid Deer Lane" at a cross street there. Nyuknyuknyuk.
A wise guy, eh? Why, I oughta....(head slap sound + eye poke)
;-)
> . . . the Shore Parkway
You mean the Belt Parkway!
- Lyle Goldman
Nope -- the section of the Belt south of Third Ave and 62nd St. is officially called the Shore Parkway, which is a sub-section of the Belt Parkway system that loops Brooklyn and Queens. The Laurelton Parkway on the Queens Nassau Co. line is the same way -- it's part of the Belt, but it also has its own specific name.
It is OFFICALLY called the Leif Erricson Parkway.
It is OFFICALLY called the Leif Erricson Parkway.
It's Leif Ericson Drive.
The section of the Belt along the Queens/Nassau border is the Cross-Island Parkway; Laurelton Parkway is only the short stretch between Sunrise Highway and the Southern State.
>> It is OFFICALLY called the Leif Erricson Parkway. <<
I believe this is purely an "honorary" designation in which no existing signs are changed-- only a few special signs are posted at key locations. Mail is delivered to "Shore Parkway," which remains the actual name of the road.
That is correct.
'Belt Parkway' is the name given by Moses (I guess his 'Circumferential' itea didn't fit on the signs) to the string of parkways forming a partial belt around Brooklyn and Queens: Shore, Southern, Laurelton, and Cross Island. For some reason, these names were dropped over time (or never used?) by the general populace, except on the Cross Island, which isn't considered part of the Belt at all (although historically it is). NYSDOT signage follows the general parlance (or does the general parlance follow NYSDOT signage?), while NYCDOT signage is mixed -- in particular, NYCDOT street sign blades use the section names. (Similarly, NYCDOT street sign blades still identify the old Queens-Midtown Expressway and Horace Harding Expressway sections of the LIE.)
Note that the Southern Parkway is not to be confused with the Southern State Parkway, which is now (erroneously, at least from the historical perspective) signed as the Southern Parkway. The two are separated by the short Laurelton Parkway.
But 'Leif Ericson Drive' is no more an official name for a section of the Belt Parkway than 'Tony "Anton" Hulman Memorial Way' is for I-70 in Indiana. Both are purely honorary designations. Some mapmakers are confused on this issue.
The signs identify the highway as the Belt Parkway and the service roads as Shore Parkway.
- Lyle Goldman
And how does that conflict with anything I wrote?
The Shore Parkway is part of the Belt Parkway. See Steve Anderson's Belt Parkway page, to which I see you are a contributor.
The BGSs give one name. The street sign blades give another. The street sign blades are not for the service roads alone -- NYCDOT often posts them on parkways and expressways with no service roads at all. (My two favorites are the corner of FDR DR and TRIBORO BR and the corner of CROSS BRONX EXPWY and AMSTERDAM AV. Yes, the latter is technically in error.)
"NYCDOT often posts them on parkways and expressways with no service roads at all. (My two favorites are the corner of FDR DR and TRIBORO BR and the corner of CROSS BRONX EXPWY and AMSTERDAM AV. Yes, the latter is technically in error.)"
Not to mention the signs on the Hutchinson River Parkway that mark "Co-op City Blvd."
But 'Leif Ericson Drive' is no more an official name for a section of the Belt Parkway than 'Tony "Anton" Hulman Memorial Way' is for I-70 in Indiana.
No; the legally mapped name of the Parkway from the Gownaus Expressway to Knapp Street is "Leif Ericson Drive;" the service roads are still officially "Shore Parkway."
i used to live in sunset park on 44th street between 3rd and 4th back in the early 90s, and i routinely walked under the expressway. ive thought for quite a while how to replace it, and i think the best possible way would be to trench it and cantilever 3rd avenue on both sides, like the Grand central in queens. also, expanding rail service thorugh queens, staten island, and parts of brooklyn would not only reduce congestion but also reduce pollution. personally, i think anyone who lives withing walking distance of public transportation and can use it to commute is a selfish son of a bitch if they own a car. all they do is contribute to the problems. and damn you robert moses, you bastard. you screwed NYC over bad, and ill see you in hell you sack of shit.
Hi Chris,
I'm afraid I don't understand your comment that anyone who lives within walking distance of public transportation and can use it to commute, but owns a car, is a selfish son of a bitch.
What if we go other places than to work? I frequently go to New Jersey, where public transportation is often unavailable (or at the very least a 20 or 30 minute drive becomes a 3-hour ordeal, requiring me to go INTO the city to get out of it (which is clearly counterproductive toward reducing congestion in the city). Many people I know who live and work in the city often must travel to laboratories far outside the city, so they need a car for that.
Did you mean to say that people who can use public to commute but drive anyway are selfish? That sounds a lot more reasonable (although I can give cases in which driving greatly reduces commute time, and reduces congestion in the city).
I do agree with you about Bob Moses, though. He did wonders, accomplishing things that could never get done today (usually by hook or crook), though he left us with some serious problems, particularly in the area of access to public transportation.
(I do agree with you about Bob Moses, though. He did wonders, accomplishing things that could never get done today (usually by hook or crook), though he left us with some serious problems, particularly in the area of access to public transportation.)
Moses wasn't a mass transportation guy, but the idea that he prevented mass transit improvements is a myth. Moses first came to power in the City in the LaGuardia years -- before that he had been active primarily on Long Island. Compare the extent of subway and transit initiatives in the Moses era (the 33 years from 1935 to 1968) with that in the post-1968 anti-Moses era, which has also lasted 33 years.
In the Moses era, we had the 6th Avenue line, the Rockaway Line, the connection from the Queens Boulevard Line to the 60th Street tunnel, subway unification (an expensive proposition with hundreds of millions in bonds -- several billion in today's dollars), the replacement of all of the rolling stock, the Port Authority takeover and rebuilding of the PATH (Moses had great influence on the PA), the Port Authority Bus Terminal, and, finally, the planning and execution of the Chrystie Street connection.
In the post-Moses era? From 1968 to 1982, the commuter railroads were rebuilt and the subway fell apart. From 1982 to 2001, the subway has been partially rebuilt -- but not to the same extent as in the period from 1940 to 1960. We have the Archer Avenue extension. We will soon have the 63rd Street connection. Anything else?
Of course, during the Moses era while all that was going on, Moses was also building highways and airports. In retrospect, should the mix have included more transit investments. Sure. But the anti-Moses NIMBYs have more to answer for the lack of transit than Moses does.
Hi Larry,
Thanks for your response. I've heard (but I can't personally vouch for it) that when Moses called for the Verrazano-Narrows bridge, he demanded that it be designed such that it could never hold rail tracks.
Now, if that's true, it makes a pretty strong case for Moses trying to stifle the development of mass transit.
Now, what you cite about such little development in the post-1968 era is absolutely true. But it has nothing to do with Moses. Rather, this is a more general change that has occurred in almost every area of life. New legal wrangling, lots of NIMBY, and so on have stymied virtually every public works project in the last few decades, keeping them locked up in courts and litigation for years on end.
The second ave subway - I'll believe it when I'm riding it.
The Gowanus - probably nothing will be done about it except for temporary patch jobs, and one day it'll collapse like the West Side Highway.
The Empire State Building - built in a year and a half. Most of the IRT in Manhattan - a couple years. Imagine trying to build something like the IRT today...
I'd imagine the same is true in most other cities as well.
In the Moses era, parkways were built such as the Southern State with purpose-built low clearance bridges and overpasses to prevent high profile trucks and buses from using the parkways in order to bring the masses to the shore beaches. WNET-TV just had a interesting and dramatic documentary verifing this fact, which I have known for many years.
Even LaGuardia had trouble roping in Moses.
LaGuardia used Moses to his advantage in the first years of his adminstration, since he had pretty much written all the laws setting up the state agencies and systems that FDR later took to Washington to create the New Deal, Moses could zoom through the grant applications and get federal money before any of the other states had touched pen to application form.
It was only after Moses lost in his run for governor against Herbert Lehman (interesting piece of trivia that New York State had two major party Jewish candidates for governor 39 years before the first major party Jewish candidate for NYC mayor) that he apparently decided to accumluate political power through his appointed positions instead of through elected office, and that's when Fiorello and others starting having trouble controlling him (circa 1937 or so).
thats what i meant
personally, i just don't understand who in their right mind would ever be a NIMBY and oppose a rapid transit line. unless its an ugly elevated line, they usually do more good for the community than bad, and it adds to the commuting convenience. less traffic and pollution also result. all the NIMBY rapid transit critics need to take their heads out of their asses and realize how much rapid transit benefits the city.
Of course, if building the line meant demolishing your house, or at least requiring you to vacate the premises for several weeks or months while underground work was done...
I do agree, though, underground subways should be less of a NIMBY problem than els, or automobile highways (god knows how many nbhds have been torn in half by well-placed highway routing...)
Me and R68A5200 saw the new December 16 map (not the strip map) on R142 6356 on the map area closest to the cab. Nice looking!
Queens Boulevard is very crowded on the map itself. That's how I noticed it. The G Line is dashed on Queens Boulevard from Court Square. And some official WTC changes.
Nice to see you back.
Also, on the SIRT section of the map, they list the new station as Stadium, rather than Ball Park. It's quite a cool map!
I saw it on two trains today -- first an A (R-44), then a 2 (Redbird with black stripes). Looks nice. I didn't spot any errors, but I didn't go over the map with a fine-toothed comb or I would have spent the day at the Rockaways rather than on ferries.
Are these Italian vehicles ever gonna make it on the road? I haven't heard any news lately, which makes me think the outlook is not so good. -Nick
I've read that the MBTA is building a test track between riverside and the Commuter rail line for the type 8s. They will have been on the property four years this January. It's a good thing the T rebuilt the Boeings LRVs in 1996 so they can take Breda to war on this otherwise there would be a car shortage.
The Subtalker who speculated about a one seat ride between Newark and Hoboken on PATH is getting his wish, and the October 12 Map & Guide is joining all the interim NYC Subway Maps in the history file. Starting tomorrow, weekends and the 7 PATH holidays from 9AM to 7:30PM, the two New Jersey railroad terminals will be directly linked. The Journal Sq-33rd St train is back, and the Hoboken-33rd St service continues. The platform crew at Journal Sq will have to switch the signs over the weekend (off-topic: why is it called the weekEND when calendars START with Sunday?)
I am guessing this is so that more commuters will be encouraged to take the Ferries.
What happens with the Newark-33rd St service?
Just on weekdays? If so does the Newark train end at Journal Square?
It's just on weekend day service. Newark trains terminate at Hoboken. 33rd St. service is available from either JSQ or Hoboken as it was before 9/11.
so on weekends there is no direct service from NYC to NWK???
That's right--until 7:30 PM when it reverts to a single Newark-Hoboken-33rd St. service. The transfer at JSQ usually is timed for minimal waiting time.
What is the point of this change ? I liked being able to go NWK-33 on weekends in 29 minutes.
I liked it, too, and I have no idea why they made the change.
The "official" handout that was being given to passengers today read:
"The change in Daytime Weekend Service allows pATH to perform essentail track maintenance and to provide more frequent service to 33rd St on Saturdays."
What track maintenance?? All tracks are still being used.
Why can't they provide the same frequncy of service on Sunday to 33rd St that they do on Saturday? The platform at Pavonia is very crowded on Sunday with people coming from the Newport Mall.
I think the Port Authority is trying to pull a fast one on passengers.
(off-topic: why is it called the weekEND when calendars START with Sunday?)
Well, in many parts of the world it IS the weekend. In most if not all of the Spanish-speaking world the calendars run lunes, martes, miércoles, jueves, viernes, sábado, domingo (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday). And some other calendars (the Hebrew calendar, for instance) don't even begin the day at midnight, but rather at sundown. The Sunday-Saturday week that we follow in this country, interestingly enough, is a holdover from the ancient Hebrew calendar that traces its origin back to the story of creation in Genesis. Saturday is the Sabbath, the day on which we rest, in honor of the seventh day on which G-d rested.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Likewise, the French week is lundi, mardi, mercredi, jeudi, vendredi, samedi, dimanche. And the Swedish week (easier for English speakers to recognize) is mĺndag, tisdag, onsdag, torsdag, fredag, lördag, söndag.
-- Tim
Where did you hear this? There is nothing on the website. I was the one who made the original posting asking why it couldn't exist and having no weekdays is illogical to me.
Rosanne and I were on PATH tonight. The new route maps are indeed posted on the trains showing weekend day service as posted by J C. Today they were running as they had been. I called PATH information and was told the new service starts tomorrow, and the timetables should be available in the morning.
Actually, in Europe, the calendar weeks start with Mondays, so it really is a week-end.
I went to Landover Metro Station to try to take the pictures of Acela Express Train #2254. A station officer told me not to take pictures. Because there is only 5 minutes left for me to take Train #2254, I exited the station, drove to New Carrollton, and got on the Amtrak platform. Luckily I took three pictures of that train.
I went to Landover several times and no one told me I cannot take pictures on the Metrorail platform. What are the rules of photography on Metrorail? I am curious about it.
Chaohwa
No flash, no tripod. Otherwise you are free. Ask the officer when the rule he is citing took effect.
Ask the officer when the rule he is citing took effect.
Just a fancy way of saying "since when!?"
Enjoy! :o)
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Sheridan Expressway? Peter
Correct!
its true .is this after hunts point.does the r142a in the middle have a signage
Na, It was off on that train but it was a <6>!
Trevor
3 no rail fan windows "crappers"
notice NOBODY looking thru the center storm window !!!!........................ugh !
Actually on the far left and middle train there WERE people looking through the sub-railfan window and with smiles no less.
If you're not gonna say something really positive, please keep it to yourself.
Haven't you learned anything from 9/11?
Trevor Logan
.....>>>>>>>""sub fan window""....???.............lol!!......
I am always POSITIVE & share it with evrybody !!!
lol !!
So you never get tired or irritated about salaamallah's "railfan window" posts which has accumulated to the millions (almost literally), and you get tired and angry off of me who just posted a few posts, which I don't even know why the people are angry at.
who is mad ?? .........lol!! ....... I am here to learn about rail transit .........& have a lot of fun .......lol !!!
Just out of sheer curiousity, do you laugh that much in real life or are you just that cheerful for us?
If you've been around, everyone on this board knows how much Salaam's Anti-Transverse Cab antics piss me off, it pisses me off to no end. It pisses me off to no end because people that can't let the past go PISS ME off.
I've said my peace many of days. So don't go there. REALLY don't go there. You have to realize how you come off. You've already got Stef unglued which I've never seen and your doing the same to me with Questions that even a Non-Railfan typically knows. Lemme ask you, how old are you, what city do you live in and are you a REAL railfan?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Anyone who supports no transverse cabs for fronts and backs of trains is right in my opinion. Conductors need transverse cause passengers won't let them through. BUT T/O DON'T. they are already insulated. Also like railfan windows and am extream supporter of them (not violently but by words and writings)
OPTO
Shawn.
how is the driver going to get from side to side? transverse? bets the point, unless the doors can close automatically with out looking at them. Masher until there nothing in them.
revised copy
Anyone who supports no transverse cabs for fronts and backs of trains is right in my opinion. Conductors need transverse cause passengers won't let them through. BUT T/O DON'T. they are already insulated. Also I like railfan windows and am extream supporter of them (not violently but by words and writings)
Sheridan-Expressway
3,6 trains,2 Bronxbound
1 out of Service.
NICE
Nope! It was 1 Southbound, 1 Northbound Local, 1 Northbound Express (The Front Sign was out!).
Regards,
Trevor Logan
I really hope the R160 is going to be a IRT train because those R142's are awful.
Definately NOT! R-160 is slated as a B Division order.
Sorry!
Trevor
are there any pics of the intierior? or drawings?
I haven't seen any of the drawings of the R-160. All I do know is that this is slated to replace the R38 to R44 class cars. Leaving the R32s here to do more work.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
so sad there will be no more railfan windows
Is there any known pics of the R160?
Since it doesn't even exist yet... NO!!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then how do we know it's going to the B division?In Retrospec my knowledge about this train is coming from you guys.
It's a follow-on order for the R-143. Whether it is a similar car or contains significant changes, based on the R-143 experience, remains to be seen. All I know (and my knowledge comes strictly from what has been posted by people with MTA insider's knowledge on this board) is that it is a B division car, 60' in length, with the same number of doors in the same locations as the R-143. Anything else is pure speculation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Please tell me you have nothing against R32s...
I love them. I love anything that doesn't have a LCD in the cab and is not transverse.
I have one thing against them, the Faded Route sign in the front, They could've went with a brighter unit and since they are keeping them. They can put a Twin Vision MultiColor LED sign (Which Twin Vision currently produces) right up in there and it would make them perfect.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
RIGHT ON! you can't ever see them and also you cant ever see the signs on the busses
TNX. Know it cus on my last job the mutants tossed a glass bottle full of water going up the hump at my car and missed...of course the cretans have a smile on their faces...'hand grenade' must have hit its mark. Hope 'propulsion' shut down and they had to sit for an hour contemplating their sins. Peter
You've lost me! BIG TIME
Regards,
Trevor Logan
You bet I am!
Where did you find these? How about 3 redbirds all together?
One of those few moments in time where three R-142As gang up together at a point. This time, Whitlock Av. on the (6).
It was sheer luck and great timing!
Trevor
AND you just so happened to have your camera... do you carry your camera all the time? I wanna take pictures of the subway also, but I don't know what camera to get. Do all of you guys use digital cameras? (they seem nice and better than film...) Which do you have?
No, we don't all use digital - not by a long shot! Digital cameras have their place, but for quality and permanence of image, slide film (Kodachrome in particular) is the way to go. Getting quality equipment isn't cheap with either approach, but good older equipment (read: non-electronic, manual focus) from Canon and others can be had for a significantly more reasonable price than new. The cameras I use on a regular basis are a pair of thirty year old Canons that I purchased new (and Jr. has a third, just like them, that I bought on eBay earlier this year); I also have five Exaktas that date between 1936 and 1968 which I have used extensively over the years and still use on occasion. My older son uses a mid-'50s Kodak Retina - the closest thing to a compact point-n-shoot of its era - for his railfanning - no fancy interchangeable lenses or anything, but you learn how to make every shot count. So, personally, I think slide film is still the way to go.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ihave to agree with you wholeheartedly about slide film, and particularly Kodachrome.
I am going on 51 now -- and started taking rail photos when I was 14. In those days, not having much income, I would use whatever film was available. And occasionally a roll of Kodachrome 25 or 64.
Believe me, the ONLY stuff that still retains its full clarity and color quality over all those years is Kodachrome 25 or 64.
I usedother stuff, such as Anscochrome, Dynacrhome (remember that crap?), store-brand garbage, etc. And none of it seems to holdits quality over the years.
My dad took 35mm slides of all the family stuff when I was really young, and he always used Kodachrome. The stuff still has great color after almost 50 years!
Digital technology is getting better -- most of the major newspapers, wire services and magazines use digital cameras now for their quicker traansmission capabilities -- but the cost of those cameras is still in the $4,000-$5,000 range, well above what your average person is going to be willing to pay.
That's down considerably from the mid-1990s, when the first digitals capable of simulating regular film cameras came in at a whopping $25,000 apiece, but it's still going to be a while before you can get one for about $400-$500, which is when it will start posing a real challenge to the semi-professional photo market (regular folks are big into the cheap digital cameras right now. Hopefully, they're remembering to make backup copies of their downloaded photos on disc or CD-ROM just in case their hard drive goes phhffttt in the future).
I've been finding that manual focus is desirable for taking pictures of trains because autofocus cameras, even with the 'fast action' modes don't focus as precisely as I can. Also, the inevitable autoexposure on newer cameras seem to be designed to ensure a blur free shot and sacrifice depth of field to obtain a high shutter speed, often one that's much higher than necessary.
Kodachrome is the film to use unless you want to do the odd roll of black and white slides in which case Scala is the best choice.
-Robert King
I keep my camera with me 24/7, never know what you may get, when I took that picture I originally aiming for one train and that was the Northbound Local, it just happened that the Northbounc Express came into view and that the Southbound was stopped by a red light, so I quickly panned back because I was actually zoomed closer and snapped!
Now, I love digital, I still use my 35mm with slide film ONLY but I'd take a digi any day. The Quality is beautiful. My Camera is a Olympus C2040Z Digi. It MSRP @ $700 but I caught a deal for $400. Digi is not for everyone and not everyone can master taking digi photos. I've seens some screwed up digi's in my time. But I fell the one I have does great.
Below is one of my ALL TIME favorites with the digi (Which I used to make the Subtalk Logo):
I've yet to date seen a 35mm Auto or Manual Camera pull of a night shot with lighting like that. The capacity of a digital camera to pick up and and adjust it perfectly has hightened my love for night and dusk photos!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
So true.
HELL!! I did this with a SONY DSC-S30 under $300.oo & only 1-3 megaplexel s !!! its the operator baby !!!
OH YEA I AM THE BEST IN THE WEST !!!
You can do good dusk/night pictures with film; I will be uploading some soon. You do need to know how, have the correct equipment and do some experimenting with your film of choice, though.
-Robert King
Yeah I've done some good night prints and slides, but I've been doing digital now for about close to 2 years and I feel I have mastered the art of it and getting it to do what I want it to do.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
1) Where is this?
2) What line is shown?
3) Where was the picture taken?
and
4) Were all three of them in service?
[1) Where is this?
2) What line is shown?
3) Where was the picture taken?]
Doesn't your first question make the next two irrelevant?
For the third one, I meant such as, on the platform..etc.
Stop calling people A-holes. Find something else to do with your life.
[Stop calling people A-holes.]
Why should I?
[ Find something else to do with your life.]
I have other things to do what makes you think I don't?
You've managed to criticize his questions, without actually responding to any of them. bravo.
To answer the original question(s),
1) In the bronx, near the Sheridan Expressway
2) 6 line
3) dunno
In the Bronx, photo taken at the southbound platform (photo looking south) at the Whitlock Ave Station, 3 R142As ALL in service, on the 6...
Cleanairbus
Questioned answered about four times already! Let's let this post fizzle off!
Okayokayokay...that's it...no more...
That's the end of that...!
Cleanairbus
1) The Approach to Whitlock Avenue from the Tunnel
2) The 6
3) Taken from the platform of Whitlock Avenue with luck and great timing!
and my own personal one:
4) What kinda railfan are you where you don't know your locations?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Cut him a break. Not everyone can just look at a photo and instantaneously know where it is. We all aren't from New York and while I have taken the Pelham Line once, I didn't do photography at Whitlock. I bet without looking at the description, you can't tell me where http://www.geocities.com/otpdccars/dccar23.jpg was taken. There is something that will give it away but I am not saying what. Good luck...
PS: The challenge is open to anyone.
Washington DC
wha did I win?
hehehe
What station?
Van Nest UDC Station!
Trevor Logan
Van Nest UDC Station!
Trevor Logan
Union Station, Washington, DC metro.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nope.
Van Nest-University of DC (Red Line)
Did you forget I told you I used to live in the Washington Metropolitan Area for a while before returning to the NY Area.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Van Ness-UDC. Wow, It couldn't be any easier...look, right next to the Metrorail train is a black sign with the name of the station there...fuzzy, but I was able to read, and I have little knowledge of the system without looking at my pocket map...
WMATA, you made it too easy. Next time, take the pic while trying to hide the station signs...lmao
Cleanairbus, still getting a kick out of that pic...
It was Van Ness, looking at the station signs doesn't count.\
Now, for a harder one (Trevor, don't answer since I already showed them to you).
http://www.geocities.com/otpamtrakpics/downeaster1.jpg
Good luck!
But every station in on the D.C. metro looks the same
Not really.
.........especially in atlanta !!! .............oh man !!! ...........
[2) What line is shown? ]
Haven't learned numbers yet?
Arti
I know this will never happen, but it would be more effective if all three trains were coming towards you.
You know, you're actually pissing me now off, it may be minor but I PERSONALLY thing the photo is effective enough.
It's shows a almost typical rush hour shot, the orignal point of the photo was to shoot the northbound local, the northbound express was sheer luck and show was still having the tip of the southbound in it.
THE POINT IS THE WHOLE PHOTO WAS SHEER LUCK AND GREAT TIMING!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
You know, you're actually pissing me now off,
Good use of mechanics.
I don't know what you're flamed about as I was just suggesting something and I wasn't even threatening or questioning you.
A suggestion that to me makes no sense since it will never happen in life during rush hour and even in a non rush! Make a suggest that could happen in this lifetime.
T.
like this ??
lol !!! lol !!!!
UGH! Los Angeles Equipment!
.......UGH ......!! .......r-142s...........UGH........lol!!
......ugh......los angeles equipment ??......hey man my brother i am the BEST WESTCOAST TRANSIT PHOTOGTAPHER !!
heres another good piece of good LOS ANGELES rail equipment !! ""who framed rodber rabbit PE car""......lol!!!
LOL !!!!
MAN NOBODY OUT HERE CAN WHIP ME !!! I AM # 1 !!!
Um brother, I'm sorry to say but I have a TransiTALK staff member with California photos that'll kick your ass badly. You'll see when TransiTALK Reopens Soon Enough!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I love a challenge !! & we will see whos ass gets kicked !! Tell your staff member to come on with his boxing gloves !!
LETS GET IT ON !!! ....................ha ha ha ha ha !!! ............lol!!
LETS SEE SOMEBODY BEAT ME DOING THIS ........LOL !!!
Whoever told Salaam the secret img src code...Shame on you. :-)
Actually it was to shut up .....the pigs..... lol !!
LOL !!
Boy you have no idea! Here is a little taste his work in here in NY, I won't give you the pleasure of the CA stuff just yet, you have to wait with the masses for that!
(and Yes I did place a code in to shrink to photo upon loading for a quicker load, But I have the full photo on file)
T.
I got a GREAT IDEA !! & like I said lets get it on ..............I am READY !!! ........................LOL!!
LOL !!!
...Man !! .......give me a break !! ........I was just "bullshitting" when I took this one ( for example ) .......lol!!
..... EH ??
boy now let me tell you something ....its like what james brown once said......... I GOT SOUL & I AM SUPER -BAD !!
your so called ""westcoast transit photographer"' .....( best ) vs my worst ...&...I did not have to SHRINK nothing here !!! ....lol !!!
AINT IT FUNKY NOW !!! AINT IT FUNKY NOW !!!
lol !!! lol !!!!
(and Yes I did place a code in to shrink to photo upon loading for a quicker load, But I have the full photo on file)
No you didn't. That's not the way the web works.
If you have a huge JPEG and you tell the HTML to scale it to next to nothing, the entire huge JPEG is still sent across the network. The HTML attributes are an instruction to the receiving machine to scale the image. To add insult to injury, web browsers generally do a pretty bad job of scaling compared to dedicated image processing software.
Scaling images through HTML is almost always a bad idea.
And there's nothing worse than a page full of "thumbnails" that are nothing other than full-size images with HTML scaling attributes. That page takes no less time to download than if it had the full-size images; either give me true thumbnails or just give me the full-size images from the start.
(In this case, I'm not sure why you even bothered. The original file was 440x330. You scaled it down to 400x300.)
Yes but trevor puts up this "shrunk" photo to say that his "westcoast connection" transit photographer can whip me in transit
photography out here !! I called his bluff & said to him ""lets get it on to see who is #1 out here ( out west ) put up or shut up !!
LOL Trevor I accept your challenge lets get it on BIG BIG time !!!
NOW thats a real lol !!!!
Hey, don't get me wrong -- I'm not knocking his connection's work, nor am I knocking yours. Watch out, though; the photo contest isn't over yet.
yes !! sir !! U R right about that... But I am telling TREVOR that his so called "" west coast ace"" etc...........
CANT WIHIP ME IN TRANSIT PHOTOGRAPHY out west & out here !!! hands down I will whip his ass !!
Big time !!! .............( smile ) .........lol!!!
Yes I know, remember I do run a website, I was dummying up the terminology for those that aren't webheads like you and I.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
No one can beat you because LA Transportation from what I hear is awful. No one wants to photograph it, much less ride it.
I am going thru the entire system BLUE GOLD (construction) GREEN RED & metrolink trains all the way to the san diego coaster !!
the orange empire museum & the entire fleet there then on to san diego to show eric hass how he should have done the san diego trolley!!
If i did live in NYC..... i would give the -transitphotographers- "eastcoasters" a run for your money .......oh yea !!!
Remember I said to TREVOR i am the KING of the ( west coast ) & i accept his challenge LETS GET IT ON !! >>>big time !!!
Ridership on all modes of public transportation is on the rise here in spite of what we all have heard the long beach blue line has added
thier fleet to 3 car operation .....hell the old laRy & PE systems should have never been scrapped back in the 1960s !!!
They aren't going in the same direction (or at least I hope not!).
.....oh no !!..............LOL .......!!
same thing here in the west coast on train heading to PICO the other to 7 th & METRO ... both trains speeding at aprox 50 mph...
yes it is some LUCK but the OPERATOR is the key to this kind of a PRO shot everytime !!!
LOL !!! how bout this one trevor ..............I am the best { in the west } .............LOL !!!
I CANNOT ''B'' BEAT OUT HERE !!!
Now what you need to get Trevor, is a picture of the R-143 pulling into the Manhattan-bound platform at Atlantic Ave. on the L, because those trains are going to be around a long time starting on Monday and that platform has about as much time to live, or even less, than the remaining Redbirds....
Very True, it will be a goal!
Trevor
I wish you guys stop this nonsense of insulting each other and
calling each other names, that's why i don't post much on this
board, because of MR AMERCAN PIG stupid comments, so please lets
try to get along with each other and have fun railfaning!!.
PEACE R-29
That response to Mr. JLee wasn't a insult, I'm taking him up on his offer to do the R-143 Atlantic Avenue Pre-Destruction shot!
Trevor
I think R-29 was responding to one of the other threads off the main post, but put his response in the wrong place.
Now that's what I'm talking about! Keep up the good work, pal.
-Stef
now stef this is what i am talkin bout !! lol !!
LOL !!! & at night !!!
I have finally started the Staten Island portion of my 2 Avenue plans.
Currently I have only made the stops.And since everyone is planning to re-model south Ferry I have started making a rough draft of it.This will be extremely unique and authentic.This will be the first time a IRT and IND line run adjasent to each other in a bourough.Anyway here is the South Ferry plan
1,9:From previous plans I heard, a 4 track configuration with the 1 on the outside and the Y in the middle.After south Ferry 9 Trains will go onto the express tracks and then into a middle track to turn around.
Y:From Rector Street the Y will seperate to 2 outer tracks and then continue to South Ferry.From there the Y will continue to Charleston.
St George:At St George there will be a 12 track setting.4 car trains will continue on the Eastern line while the y will continue with the 1 to Charleston.This is unique because no IRT train has ran on a route with a IND or BMT.Also never has a IRT train provide a transfer to a IND train for more than 1 stop.
South Carolina or West Virginia? Local or express?
Is "extremely unique" anything like "very pregnant"? Did you expect us to believe that your proposal was inauthentic?
Where's Charleton?
Nice idea. I doubt the ferry workers would think so though.
thats why there will never be subway service there from the other boro's
Didn't the IRT and BMT both run on the Astoria line at one point?
Charlestown is a section here on Staten Island.
The IRT and BMT did share trackage rights, however the BMT served it's share of service on the Flushing line with BU-type equipment, since at the time of dual service (1917-1949) the BMT had a severe shortage of steel subway cars. This is why for World's Fair service on the Flushing Line, the BMT rebuilt older, open platform MU's into the "Q" (for Queens) type units, which went on to serve the Third Avenue El and the Myrtle Avenue El in the 1950's and 1960's.
The IRT made do with it's standard stock of the time, which included the 1939 World's Fair MU's.
The N21 bus was pretty fast, and so was the 7. I went to GCT to pick up some MNRR schedules then it was off to 8th ave Brooklyn. I was looking forward to riding an N train across the bridge and express on 4th ave. I took a packed 4 (which I waited awhile for) to Union Square and just made an R32 N train which arrived just after I got down the stairs. The front window was available. All I could see ahead was reds and yellows. There was an R in front of us and it was very slow going (it took 10 minutes just to get to Canal). The conductor kept saying there's "several trains ahead of us, please be patient". We sat outside Prince for a few minutes after they let the Q go first (it should it was on the express track), then we had to wait for the R to enter Canal. There was not a happy camper with us, he was going to one of the local stops on 4th ave between Pacific and 36th. Finally we get on the bridge and we crawl the whole way, we sat for about 3 minutes waiting for an R ahead of us that seemed to be just sitting midspan. Finally it moves, we crawl some more (stupid track workers) and the guy in backof me mumbled "get the f* our of our way. I couldn't blame him, I'm getting sick of these track workers slowing things up. We stop outside the tunnel portal again, waiting for the R in front of us to move. Finally it does and we crawl all the way to Pacific with the R in front of us (apparently N and R trains are bypassing Dekalb and running express S/B to 36th.
The tunnel smelled of exhaust and diesel fumes, and it Dekalb I could see why. There were several work trains sitting in the station (on the inner track) and on the tracks south of Dekalb. It looked like they were working on the switch which connects the Dekalb tracks to the 4th ave line (that explains why no Brooklyn bound trains except the Brighton are stopping at Dekalb.
Once we got out of Pacific we started moving, then we wait again outside of 36th for that R in front of us. We switch to the local track, then to the west end (why they didn't keep us on the express is anybody's guess, I guess the tower crew was lazy). Yeah two divergings.
The C/R gave very good directions to those with bypassed stations. Those who were east of 62nd street had to take the N to C.I. and then back up the Sea Beach. Fortunately 8th ave is west of the station, so I can go downstairs and get the N there. The West End was slow, but the ride through the mini-tunnels in the beginning was interesting, since you don't normally get it from a railfan window (unless you take the M).
I got off at 62nd and waited about 15 minutes for an N train to arrive (also R32's). Got off at 8th ave and walked around on what feels like a day in May (where's Winter?)
Going back from there I took the N (Manhattan bound of course) to 9th and went upstairs for the F. I didn't have to wait long and the ride was pretty good, though it still sucks making all those local stops in Queens. It will be nice when the F is via 63rd street full time it will be express for a change.
Took the 7 back to Flushing at Roosevelt ave.
The N/R G.O. was a mess though. I left Union Square at 10:25am, I didn't get to 8th ave until 11:30am, that's an hour and five minutes. It could've been quicker driving! I bet I could've walked faster across that Manhattan bridge!
About the Chambers Street Station on the Nassau Street Subway Line (J/M/Z) referred as the brown lines on the subway map. Will it be repaired since the station is in heavy disrepair? The same thing goes with Canal Street Station on the same line for the Easter Platform (Queensbound).
Phil
The northbound platform at Canal street (the one unrepaired) and Bowery northbound will be abandoned when they realign the track to go into the stub end "express" track at Canal. I assume Chambers will be rehabbed along with the rehab of the Nassau line, but I don't think they will abandoning anything more there at this time.
Now I know they can't really abandon anymore portions of Chambers since the weekend "J" trains terminate here and they're extended to Broad Street on Weekdays.
Why isn't there any track maps of Staten Island.
Well, there's a track map from 1949 on this website.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1949sirt.gif
No one's yet made one. Are you volunteering?
I would, but I'd only do it from an express train, and now it's too dark to ride the express and clearly see the trackage. Wait 'till Spring.
Better to do it from a local, that way you have more time to get the details correctly drawn on your notebook while sitting still at a station!!
Trust me, tried to do some system maps in a hurry. Always little mistakes crawl in.
An even better way to do it -- videotape the line from the front or rear of a train if it is possible. Then go home and watch the video, if you "think" you saw something, you can rewind, etc. I know most trains nowadays are full-width cabs, so that might preclude duing this sort of thing in many cases.
Friday morning I took an F train to Manhattan. It was already signed for the 63rd Street connector, BUT the display read:
F - 6 AV/63 ST LCL - CULVER EXP - KINGS HWY
Culver EXPRESS?
ERROR or NOT?
Well if you love that, then check the new sign list on the R-46......apparently they have plans to run the V to Church Avenue. The other day while working the E, I noticed this listing in the new Luminator code list for V to Church Avenue. Lots of plans for the V huh!!
When they get enough cars they hope to run the V and G to Church while the F express between Jay and Church.
F Express on the IND South Brooklyn line? What about that fire that took out Bergen Interlocking? Is the interlocking repaired, or is Bergen now handled thru a Master Tower?
Bergen LL is absent of tiles or signage, I assume they plan to remedy this if this G and V extension to Church Avenue takes place. Church Avenue has the capacity to handle the turning of two lines in any event.
By the time the Car shortage is resolved Bergen IL will be 100% functional again. Isn't it supposed to be the NYCT prototype for SSI technology?
Indeed, it is. Bergen was/is to be the test for the new technology for the improved interlocking.
Time will tell what service is to appear on the IND Smith Street Line.
Great... every line in south Brooklyn will get 2 services... currently, West End W, M, Brighton, Q diamond, Q circle, Culver , F, and possibly (don't want to make it seem absolute) V ... and Sea Beach... ONE ... N. Sea Beach Fred, I hope you read this...
Are those the same kind of luminator signs used in buses?
I don't think so. I think the LCDs on the R44s and R46s look like an old calculator.
:-) Andrew
Luminator is a brand:
http://www.luminatorusa.com
Rail Products:
http://www.luminatorusa.com/rail/
Bus Products:
http://www.luminatorusa.com/bus
Shawn.
I'd love to see what else is programmed onto those signs...
It's an error, I've seen at least one train daily that has that sign, maybe the same conducter keeps entering the wrong code?
The Sign was not in error, The F has a few trains that run express and drop out at Kings Highway during the rush hours
That is not listed on any map or schedule. It used to be true. Is it still?
Am I alone in the belief that the new programs make things worse? Is it necessary to state that the R is the Queens Bl/60th St. local? Or that it's terminal is in Bay Ridge? And while I'm at it, what's with the recent obsession with the neighborhoods some trains terminate in? The D to Norwood?
Hell ... I may be one of the few (since I lived there once) who even KNEW that the triangle on the north side of Mosholu Parkway was "Norwood" ... that IS kinda dumb. But I guess dividing up a relatively homogenous city into little warring factions is a politically beneficial activity. 205th/Bainbridge would have been just fine.
I am in agreement with you. I would also like to know who in the TA decided that it is more important to tell you what neighborhood a line terminates in than what intersection. This is a particular problem with the bus destination signs. For example the Q36 and the Q43 both run to Floral Park, 257th & Jamaica Ave and 268th and Hillside respectively yet the destination displays only Floral Park on both lines. In this case a little more information would be nice. I'm sure there are other instances of this, both with the new train signage and the bus signage as well.
I also agree with your arguments - to a point. Sometimes, a neighborhood designation can be useful in a city where identical street names can show up in different boroughs.
Speculation: Does some of this reflect a marketing effort by MTA to help with local civic pride?
PS - While we're at it, can we change the F's destination to 179 St - Jamaica Estates? The Midland Parkway subway entrance is right at the gates to Jamaica Estates...
I can understand wanting to "market" a neighborhood aspect while trying a station name chage, such as Van Wyck Blvd to Briarwood-Van Wyck, which goes along with the naming of Jamaica-Van Wyck. It gives more differentiation between the two. I wonder, however, if civic pride had anything to do with it. I've never really gotten the feeling that the TA gave a rat's a** about civic matters. If they did, they would have listened to the people of Greenpoint and their complaints about cutting back the G service during weekday hours.
Another possibility is that the MTA wants to give its stations names sounding more like they do in Washington and London...
Either that, or there's plans to make some additional cash by selling converters that will tell you that 3108 is closer to "Norwood" than it is to "Bedford Park" ... as much as making whistle stops feel more politically empowered, finding your way to friends is a WHOLE lot easier when stops are street numbers instead of names. If I need to get out to 45th St and a buddy tells me to take the #7 train to get there, I'd be hard pressed to know if "Court Sq" is my stop or not ...
Actually, I believe their idea came from the Los Angeles system which would identify their terminus on the buses and bus stop signs 90% of the time by the town name and occasionally by the street that it ends at (at least it did in 1991). The new NYCTA bus signs reflect a very similar albeit more modern theme to the LAMTA signs.
Until recently, NY terminus names were very inconsistent. You always had Main St., Flushing, but you had just Coney Is. (no Stilwell). You had just Ditmars Blvd., though everyone called it Astoria. You Had E. 241st, White Pls. Rd, versus W. 242 St., Van Cortlandt Park. So they decided to standardize all of them (or almost all) to Street, Neighborhood.
Of course, there is only one Coney Island.
And I always wondered why there are no signs that say "Coney Island"
on the platforms at "Stillwell Ave.".
It is confusing for tourists.
But it's the last stop --they have to get off.
The less tourists the better, Yes I am a Nostalgia whore
Probably because W8 St. is Coney Island too. Making it even harder to figure out why they still leave "Stillwell Av." off of the new signs.
Actually, I found the old Hudson Terminal destination signs to be confusing when I started riding on the IND. My original impression was it was up north near the GWB. Eventually everything fell into place.
>>PS - While we're at it, can we change the F's destination to 179 St - Jamaica Estates? The Midland Parkway subway entrance is right at the gates to Jamaica Estates... <<
Come on, Ron. The residents of Jmaica Estates would NIMBY in their pants if the world found out you could take a subway there!
Sorry about that! I should know better.
Maybe if the token clerks at 179 wear bowties, cummerbuns and white gloves...
Sometimes the neighborhood names are inconsistent. For instance, the M96 and M106 run identically west of Central Park, yet the new DOT bus stop signs give a destination of "Upper West Side" to one and "West Side" to the other, even at the last stop. (I realize the TA had nothing to do with this.)
Neighborhood names at stations are fine if there is only one station in the given neighborhood. Often that's not the case. I'm afraid Harlem is served by many stations other than 145th Street (and one could argue that 145th isn't even in Harlem). When I go to the Lower East Side, I go to Essex/Delancey or East Broadway -- never 2nd Avenue, which is practically a different neighborhood entirely.
When I go to the Lower East Side, I go to Essex/Delancey or East Broadway -- never 2nd Avenue, which is practically a different neighborhood entirely.
Houston and Delancey are only three blocks apart; when I lived on Houston, I usually shopped on Delancey, and my post office was on East Broadway. Of course, before realtors came up with "Alphabet City" and "East Village" (and it was safe to walk around after 6:00 PM), everything from the Brooklyn Bridge to 14 St was the Lower East Side.
Sure, but the part of the LES I have any interest in is centered roughly around the corner of Essex and Grand. Why on earth would I get off the train at 2nd Avenue and walk from there (unless I'm on a V and don't want to wait for an F)?
I'm not saying the Lower East Side descriptor is inappropriate at 2nd Avenue. I'm saying it's inappropriate at 2nd Avenue if it's not also used at the other stations in the neighborhood, because it gives the impression that anyone bound for the LES should get off specifically at 2nd Avenue.
Neighborhood descriptors are inappropriate anywhere in Manhattan, since I don't think there's a single neighborhood that's only served by one station. 2 Ave gets the honor because it will be a full-time terminal; to the average tourist or idiot, a train going to "Second Avenue" could end up anywhere from Houston St to East 128 St, so the rollsign needs to be a bit more specific. "2 Ave-Houston St" would probably make more sense, but how often does something that makes sense happen?
145 St-Harlem is way off base. Heck, the A train doesn't even go to that station :).
145 St-Harlem is way off base. Heck, the A train doesn't even go to that station :).
It doesn't? Does the upper level station not have the neighborhood name as well as the lower level station?
Incidentally, out in Brooklyn, the 12/16 map has "Broadway Junction (Eastern Parkway)" and "Broadway Junction (East New York)" at the venerable transfer point. I like. They just need to add JUNCTION tiling under the BROADWAY tiles in the IND station.
It doesn't? Does the upper level station not have the neighborhood name as well as the lower level station?
Whoops... I was thinking of "148 St-Harlem" (aka Lenox Terminal). Just another reason "Harlem" doesn't cut it as a station name.
Whats all the static about? Howard Beach is Howard Beach, Broad Channel is Broad Channel. Some stations and Terminals are named for neighborhoods others for Streets. The newer technology allows more information to be given. We are no longer limited to the size of the rollers or side box. I think the TA should display where the train is from as well!
Welcome to diversified New Yawk!
avid
I just think it's overly complicating something when it isn't necessary. F /6th Av-Culver Lcl/To Coney Island seems good enough for me.
I see no problem with the signs saying 205th St/Perry Avenue, 205th St/Norwood or 205th St/Bronx. I have no problem with 71st Ave/Forest Hills or Continental Ave/71st Ave. I have no problem with Kew gardens or Union Turnpike. Personally, I think if this is all you have to complain about, you have entirely too much time on your hands.
Someone didn't eat his bran muffin this morning.
No, that's correct. The subway's signage is Manhattan-centric. Local and express refers to Manhattan service on the signs, usually, regardless of what the train does in the other boroughs. The F is, and has always been, the 6th Av local. The D is the 6th Av express (but you'll note it runs local through the Concourse in the non-peak direction).
.
Similarly, the E is the 8th Av local - but it runs express in Queens.
The J is known as the Nassau Street Express.
I disagree, Ron. The F should not be signed Culver Exp, but 6th Ave Exp/Culver Lcl. (Or, as the old roll signs had it, Culver L'c'l).
Um, why should the F be signed as a 6th Avenue express when it's actually a 6th Avenue local? (Yes, yes, I know the 2 is signed as a 7th Avenue express -- but it has a good excuse, at least on the Redbirds.)
My apologies, I have been having some technical trouble the past 30 minutes but the chat is open! Please come join us at www.subtalklive.com (new name, old URL).
I'm searching for a certain posting titled:
"NJT stinks"
or something similar to the matter.
I set my viewing option to "Two Weeks", and I checked the SubTalk archives for "Several Eons", and I did a Word Search through the website and had no luck.
Where are these posts?
Do you mean this thread:
here
Does anyone here know if the CSX freight from Fresh Pond Y-101 is hauling away wreckage and debris from the World Trade Center site? I have seen Y-101 many times lately working the W at Astoria in the AM, and the train comes over rating 4 "Big Blue" SD40-2s and hauling MANY refuse carrier boxcars, many of which are loaded with concrete, steel beams and scraps and concrete chunks north to Oak Point. If anyone here works at New York & Atlantic or works the NYC (ex Conrail) end of CSX, especially works Y-101, can you tell me if WTC debris is what this train is hauling, especially since the Staten Island landfill is getting cleared out, and the debris that's there, along with the garbage, is being transported, as planned by the state, by rail to other states trash dumps and recycling locations. An astute train watcher familiar with freight equipment wouldn't be able to help but to notice the MANY refuse carrier boxcars that seem to make up the main stream of NYAR freights and CSX East-Of-Hudson freight trains (Oak Point, Fresh Pond, Hudson Line).
They're using SD-40-3's now. Two of them replace those other GE ones they were using that I can't remember. There used to be like four or five of the old ones to pull the same train.
Shawn.
b-23-7's. they used them for at least 15 years + u23b's, u36B's, and going further back, occasional GP8's.
for a short time between the b23's and SD'sm they used some CSX b-36-7's, which still make it down to oak point for local service with CSX gp40's.
Y-101 from Oak Point now FULLY rates, each time, 2 - 4 "Big Blue" SD40-2 locos. The GE B23-7s don't show up anymore there. I haven't yet seen the few CSX B23-7s show up on this train, nor its northbound counterpart. CP Rail 274/275 (to and from the POND respectively) rates "Candy Red" SD40-2s. Providence & Worcester freight (call letter unknown, anyone who knows the P&W call letter do let me know what it is please) rates ex CR B23-7s, usually 5 or 6. The bix six axles owned by CR/CSXT (I prefer the nick name Big Six) seem to be the norm on freights here which normally used to rate nothing more than older GEs, maybe an occasional GP38-2, GP40, or even one of CR's older SW-1500s or 1000s normally seen idling at Oak Point for switching duties there. The old NY Connecting RR (now CR/CSXT)to and from the POND is seeing more traffic. Not to mention I think that CSXT has bigger plans for the line, evidenced by welded rail sections being laid out along the right of way by Roosevelt Avenue below the #7 train. Hopefully someday the line will be active with trains again, least for now the line has seen some increased use. And the motive power is better.
Let me know when that ROW is being double tracked again, like it was years ago, and concrete ties are being placed, and then you will really begin to see some heavy duty usage on that line. If you can, let me know the best times to see some of the freights running through that particular point, so that I can take pictures. Sounds exciting!
don't look for double track anytime soon - it's a short run from fresh pond to oak point, so many trains can use that single track per day without too much of a traffic backup.
best times are summer mornings - aside from the CSX round trip, you can catch the PW stone empties leave town, usually all between 7-11am. (pw mostly ran tuesday and fridays north/east...).
cp rail can be caught leaving town around 3-5pm - again, best during the longer days of summer.
CSX Y-101 comes southbound at around 7:30am, with the northbound counterpart at around 10 or 11, though sometimes if car numbers left for interchange at the POND are high, the train won't be finshed with the switching and setting up of the train, then the actual departure till around 1 pm. As for the double track, why do you think the extra space is left behind? If this freight tunnel under New York Bay from NJ to Bay Ridge becomes a reality, which George Pataki and Rudy Giuliani are pushing to make a reality, freight business will be booming for CSXT, for, as I previously stated, will have a whole new line to send freight to the Northeast from the west or the south, without the North Jersey congestion at Oak Island, Kearny, Croxton and North Bergen yards. Thus you can believe CSXT will fully utilize the line more for the operations to and from the Northeast. The second track, with the freight increase, would become a built up reality, and would be needed. Think of how much less hassle CSX would have to send NYC bound and Northeast bound freight thru the tunnel right here to NYC then on to New England without the long N. Jersey/River Line/Selkirk trip, with the NYC freight going on from Selkirk back south to NYC on the Hudson (east side) line. The second track, if the tunnel goes forward, could be a big time reality. Remember Pataki and want to get freight off trucks and onto rail. Means more business for NYC, CSXT. The money the business would bring to NYC, hell NY state as well would definitely make Pataki happy. True the second track won't be soon, but it definitely CAN'T be ruled out, especially with the tunnel plans go ahead and anticipated freight increase with the tunnel if it's ever opened.
OK, so if I position myself at Roosevelt Ave, I should be able to see some action around 7:30am? Just trying to be sure so that I can get good pictures. Any other good spots to take pictures from on that line?
yes... ditmars av. on the n/w is another good spot, along with some randalls is.
Hmmmmm.....lemme see:
1). Metropolitan Avenue . M line platform, east side of the tracks, just north of the Fresh Pond junction (now is best due to leaves no longer on trees blocking the view.....nice and clear!!)
2). The Queens Boulevard overpass, by the Port Washington LIRR branch overpass
3). Ditmars Blvd. N/W......BEST SPOT TO VIEW OUTSIDE OF FRESH POND
(look towards the north around 7:30 - 8:00 am) and maybe if you are lucky you might get the Acela southbound around the same time, side by side.
Give these a try. If you have questions about CP Rail's train....lemme answer before asked, DON'T BOTHER!! Train 274 comes down from Oak Point around 4:00 am. 275 heads north about 7:00 pm.....well after dark both times!! Providence & Worcester, ad I understand it, is yet another night time operation, although I don't know the times for the P&W trains. When I know more you'll be informed. If you get some good shots of the train (CSXT Y-101) post them at nycsubway.com, or anywhere that displays rail photos. Due list links where they are displayed. Thanx :-)
Another word to Mr. Jailhouse Doc....
Metropolitan station would be good between 9:00am and 11:00am, because you will be able to see Y-101's SD40-2s hustling around into position (with the roar of "Big Blue" SD40-2's EMD/GM 645E, 16 cylinder engines rumbling the platform as they pass) at the front of the freight train consist. Depending on the length of the train (nowadays that train is, minimum, 60 cars long, max somewhere in the area of 100-110 cars....NYAR's business is quite good atthe POND) the crew can, at times be seen from the crew readying the train for departure, checking brakeline and train connections, coupling and all. I find that this gives me something even more from my trainloving life, seeing freight action while working on board a train of my own right next to there on NYCT property!
THANKS! You made my day! Now this is something that I can use to get some really good pictures! Again, THANKS!
P&W comes down at night, and heads back north usually on a tues. or friday morning around 9-10am. summers only. they sometimes deviate a day or so from this schedule.
a second track might very well be needed with any cross harbor freight tunnel... but i'll believe they'll ever build that tunnel and replace the second track when it happens... it's be nice, and certainly smart for them to do, but so's the second av. subway, and we all know how that's gone...
the B-23's were retired and sold this last year or 2. so far as i know no csx b-23's evr came into town, although the b-36' did and continue to (just ot the bronx though).
csx would like to get more freight on the line, obviously. there's been lots of talk about them funding some small yard work to open new distribution facilities like the nY&A's team track at LIC - i know the old maspeth yard was on that candidate list, and some hope that the old phelps=dodge lot in LIC will be converted to a mini intermodal yard. it's right across the street from UPS... but things in the rail world (progess) moves very very slowly. it'll likely be years before the real fruits of the conrail breakup set in for NYC. NYA/CP Rail were apparently awarded use of 65th street yard in bay ridge for intermodal/possible float use, but the EDC has yet to hand over the keys... (the announcement was made in march...). give it a few years, and if CP's still coming to town, they'll have a nice foothold to increase their relatively scant traffic to and from NYC...
I think the only part of the line from fresh pond to oak point to get any serious trackwork is that roosevelt av. section - but that's more due to the highway being widened and the tracks moved. still, it's a nice sign that the rest of the line might someday get it's long overdue overhaul
Some GE units (5 or 6 usually) were running to Fresh Pond until a few months or so. Less than 6 months ago. As far as what I've seen. Only just recently have the SD40-3's replaced them.
Shawn.
Question......what's an SD40-3????? I only know of an SD40-2, SD40, and SD40T-2.
They are rebuilt locomotives, originally SD40, SD40-T2, and SD40-2 models. More than one rebuiler has used this designation so I assume it has something to do with the electrical package, but I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An SD40-3 is an SD40 type unit which has been rebuilt and upgraded using a Woodard CLC module (Complete Locomotive Control) This replaces the PG governor and IDAC systems.
before anyone runs out to queens or the bronx looking for them, they're not here... they're straight former conrail sd-40-2s, all still in conrail paint, so far as i know.
Wrong. CSX runs the SD-40-3's in Conrail paint to Fresh Pond Yard. I know this to be a face because they have "SD-40-3" painted on them near the unit numer. Maybe I'll be able to get a picture of it some day. I've seen it with my own eyes though. I do live right across the street from the Bay Ridge line a few blocks from Fresh Pond Yard.
Shawn.
if they are '40-3's they're rebuilt straight from sd-40-2, as they look just like them... i think most folks think of rebuilt old tunnel motors and 45's, which look a whole lot different, as 40-3's, typically. call em 40-3's if you want, but they don't look much if at all different that sd-40-2s.
Also, i saw and have a quite a few shots of u23b's labeled as b-23-7's though (back when they went over the hell gate), so them labels ain't foolproof.
They do look pretty much identical to me. But from my point of view you can really see SD-40-3 painted on them. I'm not talking just about labels on some picture. I believe they're also louder than CPR's SD-40-2's. If I knew their schedule for sure I'd be standing on the corner with my camera.
Shawn.
it's labeled/painted sd-40-3, on the side of the cabs, under the numbers, no? I haven't seen them on the sd's, though on the old b-23's, u23s there was the model type on the actual side of the cab, in small print - and some of them, oddly enough, were wrong! (b-23's and u23's look different enough, so how that goof happened, or wheither they considered some of the u23's as being overhauled to b-23 specs is well beyond my knownledge. perhaps i can dig up one of my old shots of it & scan it tonight...
I suspect (though haven't had a chance to poke around and find out for sure) that the sd's were from a batch conrail overhauled in the 90's, so perhaps they considered them 40-3's?
whatever they are, they're loud as hell. I recall over the summer sitting on randalls island, across from the south bronx and new NYPost plant, when i was able to hear them coming over the main span of the hell gate!
There were a bunch of U23Bs rebuilt into B23-7Rs for a freight operation that was eventually absorbed into Conrail. They don't look like U23s. If I recall correctly, these were given dash 8 type cabs, and wings, a characteristic of GE Dash 7s,8s, and 9s.
SD40-3s? I don't know about that. If I could see them at Oak Point, I'd know. Everything should be 40-2s, but I could be wrong.
Also for locos to be utilized in NYC, plows must be notched in the corners, otherwise they wouldn't be able to clear the Hudson Line and it's 3rd Rail.
-Stef
I think i know which ones you speak of - there were 10 of them, for that coal railroad near pittsburgh that conrail bought in the mid-90's. they were 'super-7' rebuilds by GE.
I never spotted any of them 'super-7's' in the bronx or queens, likely due to that snowplow modification you mentioned that metronorth requires to clear the 3rd rail. csx has a batch of 10 sd-40's modified for this purpose, as well as the original 10 b-36's that took over from the b-23/u23/u36's that had been the mainstay of the hudon line/fresh pond freights. they've also got a few gp40's modified now, as well as the usual sw1500 yard power...
the u23's i spoke of were straight u23s, perhaps overhauled by conrail in the mid 80s. most were ex-LV units. (the u36b's were ex-auto train, just 4 of them - but they appeared in queens a lot since they were part of the dedicated pool of power for the line. they were retired sometime in the mid 90's...)
I've spotted at least one MP15 in Oak Point. The trucks in which the locomotive ride on, give it away.
-Stef
a'right, i dug up an old photo of one of the wrongly labeled engines so ya' know what i'm talking about... let's just hope the olde' html will work...
here's a string o' 5 b-23's going over hell gate in 1990 (taken 44th st. where the bridge ends on the queens side). nothing unusual, or so it'd see.
zooming in on the last engine, you can clear see it's labeled/painted/marked under the number as a u23b... which it is not, nor was it ever. so just cuz it says it's a u23, or anything else, doesn't mean it actually is! =)
that's not to say the sd's ain't really 'sd-40-3's, as i said before i recall cr rebuilt a batch of sd-40's in the 90s and they might have been part of that group (thus making them 40-3's in their eyes...) i'm just saying sometimes them side labels are wrong.
Sounds like someone in the locomotive shop got their engines mixed up. Heh.
-Stef
i wonder... ? Much of the CSX haul off of LI these days is trash. I know NY&A serves a large trash facility in Bushwick (waste management?), so maybe it's going through there?
It could also just be part of the usual trash-mix. the bread and butter of CSX these days is bringing food into hunts point market, and trash out of the south bronx and queens... making oak point yard both the arse and mouth of the city =) hehe!
did you post to the NY forum at railroad.net? i'm sure someone there will know, as there are some NYA guys on there...
Debris...you mean R-142's?
On a related topic: this afternoon at Fresh Pond Junction there is to be a press conference regarding the WTC tragedy in regards to the regional area RRs. As part of the event (with dignitaries), one of the CP Rail locos is to be presented in a new paint scheme making reference to the heroes of 9/11.
Has anyone else heard about this?
Event begins around 5:00 p.m.
BMTman
While channel surfing during a stoppage of play in the Flyers game a few minutes ago, I paused long enough on Larry King Weekend to hear Rabbi Marvin Hier illustrate a point by saying "It matters not which train you take - the Independent or the IRT..."
That's because only the BMT is the best ;-)
Sheesh, Larry King's from Brooklyn. You'd think he would have repremanded the rabbi for that little omission. I guess he's been in DC too long and only knows WMATA now...
Someone posted on www.straphangers.org a message that I found unbelievable. It contained the words: The 5 line is NOT scheduled to get ANY of the R142s. Say it aint so, because all of the redbirds need to be replaced.
That's a bunch of crap, the 68xx Series and up is for the 5 line!
E 180th Yard was rebuilt for basically dealing with R142s.
Don't believe the Hype!
Just because all of the redbirds need to replaced doesn't mean the 5 has to get R142s. They could get hand-me-down R62s like the 7 train. I'm not saying they aren't getting R142s, I'm not sure either.
Since the people making the car assignment decisions haven't made them yet, it's not surprising that SubTalkers are unsure about what the assignments will be.
David
Then what ws the purpose of rebuilding the barn at East 180th Street. They could've revamped Corona and sent the 142's there. The 5 will get their share of cars. Let the 7 get the hand-me-downs.
2s and 5s get R142s....the 180th Street crews were pulled out and moved to 239th Street....I have a lot of respect for them, their skills and their perserverance. 180 is now primarily for R142 acceptance and handles light troubles. Everyone who hasn't had R142 class is being pulled out for instruction even with experience on those trainsets. There's movement afoot. Peter
I saw a R-32 with it's LCD saying "3". but 3 is a IRT line so whats up with that?
The R-32 as well as the R-38 front signs have numbers 0 - 9.
Why is beyond me, perhaps when a train of R-32s shows up on the (N), they could sign it up as #4 to keep Sea Beach Fred happy!
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw it siting (end of express E service) on the express tracks on the hillside ave branch today. It was in storage.
I think it's possible to run 6-car M trains during weekdays, so that other lines can get those cars to make up some 10-car trains.
Does this sound realistic, or would the M line suffer from severe overcrowding if this were done?
I think it can be done, most intervals and those on the J/Z can certainly handle 6 cars. But there is a very political issue involved here. Firstly, the train crews will get the brunt of the complaints! Additionally, once the local politicians hear about people who used to get a seat now have to stand, and letters to local community newspapers get published and these become stories in the major NY papers, the heat would be too severe for the TA to handle.
I remember a common topic of discussion in community newspapers being about the ratio of J trains to M trains. People did not understand why they would sometimes see two J's before an M. Such minor complications. Let these people have to take the Queens Corridor everyday, and they'll see what real service complications are about.
You don't understand politics. The passengers who take the M do not care about the passengers who take the E/F. If anything, the M line passengers would simply look at a train every 2 1/2 minutes out there vs. 8 to 10 minutes on the M and would make the mutant excuse that they'll take the extra trains with the crowding to cut down on their wait! Everyone elses grass looks greener than yours! All they care about is the M line. The passengers who take the A only care about their line and no one elses. The average passenger is not a railfan! If a service cut is made to any one line, the passengers will eventually take it up with their own politicians who they elect into or out of office. I have gotten into discussions over the course of time with passengers over the 2 to 1 ratio of the J to M. I tell them because the running time from Bway/Myrtle to Jamaica is twice as long as the the M to Met, which means with all else being equal, the J would have twice as many riders and in turns needs twice as many trains.
Alright,enough.You guys leave my line alone.You want cuts,take them from the lines YOU ride........
Alright,enough.You guys leave my line alone.You want cuts,take them from the lines YOU ride........ Bill,i know you ''do'' the M line,so tell these guys to BACK OFF!!!!!!
Because of the logic I cited, 6 cars will never happen on the M. Especially in light of the fact of the M getting no respect in the southern division, it would be kind of difficult (lacking a better word) to reroute a 6 car train due to a delay in service to the Q/N/R/W lines.
tell that to these people on this board who feel the M has no standing, or the J for that matter. If they want cut they should recommende the line that they use....... and see how they like it.
I'm doing a term paper for American History on the impact of rapid transit on American cities in the late 19th century and I need help from you guys.
First, a few questions:
1. Where can I find information about the construction of the Chicago L?
2. Where can I find information about the San Francisco streetcars?
3. When was the S.F. streetcar network built?
4. Where can I find information about Boston's subway and streetcars?
5. Where can I find information on the construction and operation of NYC's elevateds and streetcars/omnibuses?
Thanks for anything you can find!
Dan
Streetcar Suburbs by Sam Bass Warner is the text on Boston.
as to Chicago, the best are the two volume CERA history, but that is Railfan stuff--if your teacher is serious they have no interest in 'our' sort of detail.
Sf had as with most cities many small lines come and go, merge, go bankrupt etc with a twist The Municipal Railway is the earliest major SOCIALIST transit system in the US. And indeed there were still new lines being built in the 20's.
1. Where can I find information about the construction of the Chicago L?
http://www.chicago-l.org/history/index.html
2. Where can I find information about the San Francisco streetcars?
http://www.sfmuni.com/aboutmun/indxabmu.htm
3. When was the S.F. streetcar network built?
The answer to question number 2 has limited information. I will see if I have any other good references in my internet archives.
4. Where can I find information about Boston's subway and streetcars?
http://www.mbta.com/schedmaps/index.cfm
5. Where can I find information on the construction and operation of NYC's elevateds and streetcars/omnibuses?
Look in the index of this website in the Table of Contents. It has just about everything that you could possibly need to know.
For Chicago's L system, the book Destination Loop (author: Brian Cudahy)is an excellent source of history and information. For San Francisco the book The People's Railway - the story of the San Francisco Municipal Railway, is an excellent history of the transit systems in the City by the Bay.
For Question 3 information on San Francisco, a good reference is:
http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/SanFrancisco/CableCar/
Here Are Two Books On NYC & Brooklyn Streetcars
New York Transit Memories
(See Futher Description In Bilbography On nycsubway.org)
Harold A. Smith (1997) (Manhattan Streetcars and IRT Manhatten El's)
Tales Of A Brooklyn Trolly Dodger
Stan Fishler(Sp?)
(B&Q, BRT Streetcar & El's, Brooklyn Public Service Co, Brooklyn Union Transit)
I Read This Book It is An excellent reading on the Streetcars of Brooklyn & Queens.
Thanks, everyone, for your help. This will make me and my social studies teacher very happy!
Dan
"This will make me and my social studies teacher very happy!"
Well, I'll bet it will be just another paper to him/her, BUT to you it will be a keeper. Hope you get an "A" !
Mr rt__:^)
I don't know if any of you know this. A little trivia about the Winthrop St. station on the Nostrand Ave. subway.
Up until the early 90's, there was a mosaic on the southbound platform pointing to the current and only exit. It said "Robinson St."
I was told that Robinson St. was the original name for Parkside Ave. Can anyone dispute or verify this ?
That mosaic is now gone, removed and replaced with bathroom tiles You can see where it was. There was a wooden sign covering Robinson St. stating " To Parkside Ave".
Now the funny part is today further up the south platform is a mosaic stating "Winthop St" but pointing to a non existant exit mezzanine at the far north end. There was a wooden sign covering it stating "Kings County Hospital, 2 blocks". You can see the two holes for the lead shields that held up the wooden sign. Better grab a shot of this before the sign patrol covers it up !
Bill "Newkirk"
That certain sign patrol can't determine what trains run local and run express. Don't keep your hopes up with them. :-)
I don't think anybody can determine locals from expresses, particularly when it comes to the 2.
Yes, you're correct, Bill.
In my high school days, my family lived on Winthrop Street. I'd always see that mosaic about 'Robinson Street'. At first a neighborhood 'old timer' said it was the original name for Clarkson Avenue, but later found out looking at old maps that it was the original street name for Parkside Avenue -- I believe it held that name prior to 1920.
Another bit of Flatbush street name history for you: Lenox Road was originally named Diamond Street...;-D (couldn't resist).
BMTman
I spent some time observing the Florence Station on the Los Angeles Blue Line this afternoon, and it raised some questions in my mind.
The station is about 100' south of Florence Avene, so south bound trains cross the street immediately before pulling into the station and north bound trains cross immediately after leaving the station. There is also a two track freight line running parallel to the Blue Line at this point. When a freight train crosses, the gates work as I would expect; they lower when the train is some distance away, and raise after the train has crossed and is some distance away. With Blue Line trains is different.
For the southbound trains, the gate lowers when the train is still some distance away, but raises as soon as the train pulls into the station, even though the back end of the train is only 100' from the crossing. For north bound Blue Line trains the gate does not lower until the train is stopped in the station with the doors open, and remains down for several seconds after the train has cleared the crossing going north.
I have several questions regarding this.
1. What causes the gate to lower when it does for a north bound train? Is the T/O punching in a signal when he is getting ready to pull out of the station?
2. What protects the crossing if a north bound train does not stop at the station? It is hard to believe that it would be possible for a run away train to charge through the crossing before the gates came down.
3. On the south bound side, if the gates raise when the train is only 100' away in the station, what protects the crossing if the train on the southbound side were to reverse out of the station or a north bound train were wrong railing on the south bound side.
I am sure this is not a unique situation and is faced by commuter rail lines all over the country, so there must be a more or less standard way to handle the problems. Does anyone know what it is?
Tom
3. On the south bound side, if the gates raise when the train is only 100' away in the station, what protects the crossing if the train on the southbound side were to reverse out of the station or a north bound train were wrong railing on the south bound side.
It has to do with how the the relays are set up. A grade crossing generally has 3 track circut blocks. There is an island circut that is basically the crossing and a few feet on either side and two longer approach circuts. The the approach circut it shunted the gates go down, when the island circut becomes shunted and then reverts back to normal the gates go up. Then the other approach block reverts from shunted to non-shunted the system is reset for opreation in either direction. For reverse moves, the gates will lower whenever the island circut is shunted go the train would have to proceed slowly until it gets onto the circut and the gates lower.
Thank you for that post.
If you observe stations like New Hyde Park on the LIRR (RR Crossing on either side of the station), you would see:
1) Gates lower as train approaches.
2) Gates open as train clears crossing and stops in station
One difference, though:
3) Gates at crossing in front of train in station remain down until train has left station and clears crossing. This is true for either of the two tracks.
In the case of NHP, there is circuitry which detects speed of the trains, and the gates "time out".
They do this "time out" thing on most railroads, if a train takes too long to get to a crossing, the gates start to go back up. As the train gets nearer, they are supposed to come back down.
An interesting thing is out here in California on the San Francisco peninsula. Now it's operated by JPB/Caltrain, but it was originally Southern Pacific. Many of the stations along the line had close crossings, and lots of traffic. The gates would go up if the train was slowing to make a station stop before fouling the crossing. There would be a microphone on a pole next to the track at the point where the locomotive would stop. The gates were sound activated, so the engineers would have to lay on the horns to get the gates to resume operation!! (It took a REALLY healthy air horn blast, too,not just some idiot in a car driving by on the adjacent frontage alley!!)
The crossing gates in advance of the crossing immediately in front of the train may "time out" as you call it. It the train is stopped in te station, they will open, permitting vehicle traffic to cross. However, when this happens, the engineer will receive a very restrictive code (either 0 or 15 MPH). Once the train begins to move and again shunts the local circuits, the gates will again come down and the code will advance to an appropriate reading. Some of the est examples of this are on the Ronkonkoma branch, Brentwood, Wyandanch and Farmingdale westbound and Bethpage eastbound.
If you look on the tracks of the LA Blue Line, there are signal boxes between the rails, and a wire loop. There used to be signs posted next to the trackfor each of these, signs said "TWC Loop". I don't know if the signs are still there as Ihaven't ventured around the Blue Line in a couple years at least. (no need to...)
The TWC loop is what controlled the signals....part of the Automatic Train Control system. If a train is going north, the gates won't go down until the train is ready to go. There is a manual switch on the control console of the train itself, so the train operator can set the gates to working manually if needed.
If a train on the southbound track needs to reverse and go north over such crossings, the train operator presses the "TWC" button on the console and down come the gates.
It's also this way at the Vernon station, and a few others as well all the way down into Long Beach.
Interesting setup. Is it possible for the crossing gates to be switched to manual mode, and then for the train operator to forget to activate them, so the train enters the crossing with no lights, no bell and no lowered gate arms? Or is there a fail-safe to prevent that?
>>> There used to be signs posted next to the trackfor each of these, signs said "TWC Loop". <<<
I did notice that sign at the Florence Station. Thanks for the explanation.
Tom
I know that the Nassau Street Subway lines are full of contrasts in many stations, because at Broad St. and Fulton St. stations, they've been renovated in recent years and there are some stations such as Chambers St., Bowery and Kosciuszko St. stations that are in disrepair. You think that the Nassau Street Underground stations (such as Chambers) will be renovated with the Grecian borders and the elevated stations (such as Kosciuszko) be repaired in their exits since it's in terrible shape.
Phil
Phil- They are renovating the Stations from Hewes to Halsey as I am writing this. Lorimer, Gates and Chauncey are completed and the Queens platforms of Hewes, FLushing, Kosciuszko and Halsey are just reopened. Still underway is the mezzanine rebuilding at these 4 and still to come is the Manhattan Platforms. Marcy is also being renovated and will include elevators and full ADA access.
Eastern Parkway is being renovated as part of the East NY Complex. Myrtle is completed and Alabama to Crescent is planned for this 5 year progam as is Chambers. I expect Bowery will wait for a future 5 year program.
They are going to abandon the Northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery. Chambers should also be renovated when they do the rest of the line, But I think they are keeping all the platforms. Does anyone know what is planned for Essex Street? Are they going to just use the center track at the island platform when they abandon the Northbound platforms at Bowery and Canal? Possibly, they may make it into two Wall platforms if they don't use the outer track anymore, but that would decrease the use of it if they needed it for diversions. Any word of what is planned?
Essex Street will still have three tracks. Trains to Jamaica Center will use the center rtack and open up on the island platform. Trains to Broad Street will use the wall platform. The current track used for Jaamica bound trains will remain for non-revenue moves.
The current Jamaica-bound track would need to remain intact in case the connection from 6th Avenue is ever used. (The connection only provides access to that track.)
I've suggested that, with no regular service on that track, a removable bridge be installed to allow passengers to exit on the south side of Essex Street.
I consider myself to be avid railfan since I was a kid, but today struck a raw nerve. I realize that from time to time, maintenance must be performed on the rails from time to time. Early this morning about 8:00, 2 Diesel locos, #158 & 153, pulled up right next to my apt. building here in Bayside, Queens, NY. The locos had a few cars filled with gravel for the rails. The train was stationary until 11:10 AM when it finally left westbound, and not before ringing its bell and tooting its horn. I just found it rather annoying and I am sure my neighbors on both sides of the tracks did not appreciate hearing and smelling the 2 Diesel locos parked there for a good 3 hours.
My point is, why is there no consideration as to when these projects are started in residential areas?
I know exactly what you are talking about. They (railroads) can be inconsiderate bastards. When the LIRR was building the Port Wash. branch they should have taken into account that some day, someone might build an apartment building adjacent to their ROW and they would become a nuisance. Perhaps railroads should poll the neighborhood and find out when it would be 100% convenient to do maintenance.
Building a railroad line isn't being inconsiderate.Having a dirtry smelly freight train waiting in a residential area is.Trust me there are plenty of places where a freight train can wait.Long Island(Which includes Brooklyn and Queens Geographiclly)is not one of those places.
As I thought even you would have realized, I was being sarcastic. When I bought my house, I took into account schools, taxes, distance from the LIRR (noise considerations), etc. I think that when you rent an apartment that overlooks railroad tracks, you must assume that you will hear train noise from time to time.For the same reason, I have little sympathy for people who move to howard beach or Rosedale and then complain about jet noise.
I have to agree.That's why I am getting sick of these people who move into New York 5 blocks from Grand Central and complain about the noise.
Then those same people move to Sea Cliff. Next on the NIMBY agenda, stopping a modern small gas powered power plant. Of course when the lights go out they'll all be crying foul. There's just no pleasing some people.
I believe the RR was there before the apartment house. Kinda like building a house next to the airport and then complaining about he noise.
Exactly.
Yes, my apartment building was built in the mid-1960's, after the Port Washington was established. My point is here again that it is inconsiderate of them not to think that no one would notice the noise of 2 idling diesel locos at 8AM on a Sunday. Yes, when I moved to this building in 1984, it was a luxury to say the least to be able to walk one block to the station and not have to worry about finding parking in the area. I guess you can all say we are spoiled by not having to listen to Diesel locos rummbling through the ROW everyday.
For what it's worth, you really don't want to shut down a loco for many of the reasons mentioned here as well as one that I'm surprised no one else brought up - the AIR COMPRESSORS ... on diesels, your "stay put" air also comes off the engine and if you shut one down, aside from "maybe it won't start up again" if air bleeds off and the compressor doesn't kick in because the power's down, them puppies can start rolling on you without the handbrakes.
Only thing I can tell ya is be glad it doesn't happen often but at the same time, rest assured that the crew probably couldn't have shut it down even IF they were "considerate" ... just thought I'd bring it up - hopefully THIS weekend will be more peaceful. It's not like you have ongoing construction down the street - that can get REALLY annoying going on day after day after day ...
Why exactly are diesel loco's hard to start up? I'd hate to have one stall out on the OB train in the freezing cold weather.
I didn't know Cummins supplied diesel train engines. :-0
Gee it happend one sunday. I get BULK PICKUP with RECYCLEABLES every SATURDAY at 5am in the morning. They take at least three trips down the block more when cars block some of the pickup.
The city won't change the schedule.
>>> I get BULK PICKUP with RECYCLEABLES every SATURDAY at 5am in the morning. <<<
Don't complain. The street was there when you moved in wasn't it? :-)
Tom
Wait 'til you get the Rail Grinder pyrotechnic show
What? The LIRR should have taken into account that SOME DAY someone might build an apartment building adjacent to their ROW? How about the building developers take into account that there is CURRENTLY a ROW adjacent to where they WANT to build? While I do agree that sometimes railroads can be inconsiderate, 99.9% of the time they were there FIRST, and nobody forced the people to move into houses or apartments built next to the tracks or yards.
Ok, I just realized you were being sarcastic. Please forgive me, I only had 1 cup of coffee so far!
I was referring to another poster.
Yes, I know. But weren't you being sarcastic when saying that the railroad should have taken into account future development when building the ROW? I hope so!
Of course I was.
Now now ... even out here in the woods, we have inconsiderate MOW people who feel that playing castinets with the spikes all through the night every couple of months is a good thing. However, we haven't had any trains land in our dining room lately, so I guess it's all for the better. :)
On the montauk branch there are a couple of late trains that go through town. One eastbound at about 3:15 AM and one westbound around 4 AM. Those DE30 horns raise hell at every rail crossing. Even a half mile away you can't miss it. But you get used to the sound and even miss it when they are late.
You'd LOVE CP-VO where I live ... every night between 2am and 6am there's at least 30 trains through here, and two crossings in the village. Fortunately for the railroad, most of the folks who live here are CSX'ers and those who can't stand the FRA-required music just don't live here anymore.
I must be a sicko, but when I'm treated to the nightly serenade, I SLEEP BETTER ... when I left the city, the one thing that got to me was the lack of noise. Couldn't sleep worth ... well ... a whistle. But if you don't like the sounds of long freights and 6 motors at the lead, this DEFINITELY ain't the place to live. :)
I'm a real NYC kid...used to go on vacations in Pennsylvania over three decades ago...and THAT sound of the rails!!!!!!! Peter
I have trouble sleeping when it's completely quiet. A background noise like a fan, bus engine or even a train actually helps. The drunks that come out and roam the village at 2am are quite annoying though. I've lost days of sleep thanks to them. I'd much rather live by an RR then put up with crazy animals. But for now close the windows and put fan or heater on, that helps alot.
You'd hate it around here then - you can hear the gnats making new gnats. Heh. You can hear the locos coming up from the yards nearly ten miles south of here. "A-weighted" background noise here is about 13 dB when there isn't a train around - you don't get it that quiet in most places. So the trains coming through is a delightful change.
And you DON'T want to shut down a diesel unless you have no plans of moving it for a while. :)
Im kinda putting together a study, what race, demographic are these drunks usually. This is for the purpose of science. Thanks
Hehehe, TMO, I'm with you -- can't sleep out in the woods when it's quiet!!
All my life, I've been in noisy environments. I started out living about 50' off Fordham Road in the Bronx -- US1. Lived in Bay Shore (Long Island) and the LIRR provided the music there. Came out to California in 1968, lived 1.5 miles east of the end of two major runways at Los Angeles Airport (400' below the 707's, DC-8's, etc.)
And now, I'm in Tustin....SR55 Freeway out the back window, Metrolink, Amtrak, BNSF out the side window, and 500' above the roof there are some 200 daily 737's, 757's, A320's, and one A310 landing at Orange County Airport. No skid marks on the roof yet, but there have been occasions when I've thought of checking!!
I go up to the Port Angeles, Washington, area annually -- can't sleep the week I'm there as it's TOO DAMN QUIET!!!!!!
Agreed, TD. I grew up a seven minute walk from the Albertson station
on the Oyster Bay branch. When I moved away to go to college, I
really did miss the whistles at 1:26am (and some later lite trains).
I really liked the haunting sound of the old diesel engines. They had a rich sounding horn. The DE's sound more like the M-1/3 horns.
Occasionally I still hear old diesels on the OB branch passing Glen Cove. I've seen some freight cars on sidings around Glen Cove, it could be the only way they got there.
With the variety of units that passes through here, each railroad seems to have selected their own tune. You can tell who's moving what and where just from the horns in the distance. You can tell the 38's from the 40's and the 50's from the 60's and CSX, ex-Conrail, D&H, CP or rental units just from the sound alone.
Must be boring living by just ONE railroad. :)
Actually, the DE/DM30's SHOULD sound like the old GP38-2's as far as the horns go; they are the very same type -- Airchime Ltd. K-5LA horns. Trouble is, when LIRR moved the horns on the DE/DM units, pipe welding flux, etc. wasn't blown out and it is now plugging the air inlet holes in the bottom of some of the horns (a 1/8 inch hole). So some horns sound like complete crap.
The cab cars (4000's) have the same Leslie S-2M two-note horn that the M-3 Metropolitans have....but it is mounted underneath the carbody so the sound is not as intense.
Funny you should mention missing the whistles Todd. Except for 2 years when I lived in Hicksville I have lived in East Meadow for most of my 48 yrs. And even though it is about 3 1/2 miles to the nearest crossing (School Street just E/O Westbury Station) I always heard the whistles especially late at night and as a railfan enjoyed 'em. When they got rid of the old diesels and got the tri-levels I only heard them half as much as you can only hear the E/B train whistles, the W/B cab car whistles don't carry. Now that they are reconfigured I never hear them at all. I do really miss that sound at night.
One sound I certainly don't miss in East Meadow though is the fire horns!!! Thank G-d they got rid of them!!!
Not in Sea Cliff. They can blow at any time, even at 3 in the morning. Sea Cliff is too "cheap" to have a pager system for firefighters. What a disgrace!
I think all the volunteer departments have pager systems. Some just still use the horns to make wives and girlfriends think there actually is a fire when they are actually summonsing the guys to a drinkfest!!
Uh oh....Jeff lets out the volunteer fire department secret!!!
When I lived in Bay Shore, my next-door neighbor was a volunteer fireman, and he told me they did exactly that once in a while!!!
We had just the siren out there -- but Oakdale had those damned horns.
I was doing some audio recording on the LIRR at Mineola about 12 years ago, and between the crossing bells, the train horns, ambulance sirens, the 6 o'clock siren near the station, and the fire horns in one of the adjoining towns, some of the tape came out really interesting.
Growing up in Wantagh, what I missed, starting in the autumn of 1968, when the elevation of the Babylon line between Wantagh and Bellmore was completed, was the clanging of the bells as the gates came down at the street level railroad crossings. On balance I'm glad that they did it - it does make driving a whole lot easier - but one of the reasons put forth at the time for the grade crossing eliminations was noise reduction because the bells and gates were no longer needed. I realized after the elevation that the bells, which were a couple of miles from my house, were more comforting than they were disturbing. But this was made up for by the sound of the trains themselves, which seemed to be louder once they were elevated.
Growing up in Wantagh, what I missed, starting in the autumn of 1968, when the elevation of the Babylon line between Wantagh and Bellmore was completed, was the clanging of the bells as the gates came down at the street level railroad crossings. On balance I'm glad that they did it - it does make driving a whole lot easier - but one of the reasons put forth at the time for the grade crossing eliminations was noise reduction because the bells and gates were no longer needed. I realized after the elevation that the bells, which were a couple of miles from my house, were more comforting than they were disturbing. But this was made up for by the sound of the trains themselves, which seemed to be louder once they were elevated.
Hmm I don't think OB trains run that late. But sometimes I hear the horns (even though the station is almost a mile away)when the wind is right in the middle of the night. It's especially nice and clear when there's a nice snowpack, but who knows if we'll get one this winter. Also if you listen closely you can hear the rumble of the DE's.
I've also heard the Cummins L10G's fighting up Glen about 4 blocks away.
On the montauk branch there are a couple of late trains that go through town. One eastbound at about 3:15 AM and one westbound around 4 AM. Those DE30 horns raise hell at every rail crossing. Even a half mile away you can't miss it. But you get used to the sound and even miss it when they are late.
Not everyone gets used to the sound ... if I recall correctly, the LIRR had to reduce the sound level of the DE30 horns thanks to some bellyaching area residents.
Yeah, frightened little children and whatnot. They had to move the horns to a more visible location, which ended up blocking the unit number so they had to move that... I liked the horns before the reconfig, (while on the train) you could swear there was another train honking at the same time, the echoes played tricks with your mind. Now, it's less noticeable.
But still, even as far as northern Rego Park I can hear the Lower Montauk trains honk at ~5:05 PM every day. Yes, that's right in the daytime in the middle of a city with all the buildings and blvds in the way you can still hear a train several miles away... I can't hear it in the morning, nor can I hear the westbound deadhead move at ~4:20 PM, which means the cab cars' horns ain't quite as loud as the engines'.
That re-cofiguration cost the taxpayers of NY a mere $125K per loco.
All to please some snobby NIMBY's. It is time we stop pleasing these small groups of people. If you live near an RR, then there's gonna be noise. I liked the original horn config on the DE/DM's, they did scare the heck out of you, but that is what the horn is for, to get your attention the train is coming.
The trouble with the original horn configuration was that the horn was mounted in a niche in the roof. So, the sound would spread sideways, instead of to the front of the trainwhere it is needed, i.e. at grade crossings.
All the newer stuff on Amtrak is the same way, their Genesis units and their F59PHI's out hee on the west coast. You can hear the damn trains five miles either side of the track, but stand at a crossing and you can hardly hear it bearing down on you.
The new Pacific Surfliner cab cars have their horns mounted in the best place I've ever seen on railroad equipment -- right above the coupler!!!! Pity anyone standing in front of the train if the engineer blows those horns.
That $125,000 price tag was NOT "per loco". That was what it cost to do ALL 46 units. It was approximately $2700 per unit to make the changes according to a contact I have in LIRR's Morris Park diesel shop.
The had to make a new horn mount for the front of each unit, run about 10 feet of piping to it, install a Viloco modulating air valve. The old piping was plugged, and the solenoid-operated valve mounted right under the horn (which is what gave it the sudden on/sudden off characteristic) was disconnected.
Thank You. I stand corrected
Could youse guys , maybe get closer and mount one of those babies on a MOW train to be parked on the "EL" for next years playoffs and Series at Yankee Staidum?
Jeeter hits a lone shot in the hole between center and left field...
BBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooNK!
avid
Could youse guys , maybe get closer and mount one of those babies on a MOW train to be parked on the "EL" for next years playoffs and Series at Yankee Staidum?
Excuuuuuuuuuuuuse ME, but ** WRONG LINE ** ! ! !
Yankee Stadium is and always will be METRO NORTH territory (and a list of predecessor RRs for the history buffs). Use their horn.
You wanna use a LIRR horn? Park it at SHEA. *That's* on Long Island!
>>> You wanna use a LIRR horn? Park it at SHEA. <<<
But he suggested it for use during the World Series. Who knows how long it will be until there is one of those at Shea Stadium? :-)
Tom
They look like 5-chime horns but sound like shit. Did they strangle a few of the notes ?
The horns sound like crap because when the LIRR redid the piping, they didn't blow out the welding flux, etc. that got into the lines before they mounted the horns. First time the engineer pulls the handle, all the little pieces of crap in the pipe wind up in the 1/8" hole in the bottom of each individual horn. (Yep, all that noise comes from air going through a 1/8 inch hole!!) Result? Poor sound from that individual horn, making the unit sound awful.
Amtrak had this problem when the original AEM-7's were built; a contact who was high up in Amtrak's motive power department said that they went through the trouble to remove each horn, clean it out, blow out the lines, and reinstall the horns!! Actually, it's about half an hour's worth of work for each horn. Four 3/4-inch bolts is all that holds an air horn down to a locomotive, with a 1/2 inch hard rubber (i.e. hockey puck material...) gasket between the horn and the loco.
On the AEM-7 horn: Sounds if the morale factor at the EMD plant was on the down side as workers could not care less that EMD were losing their share of the locomotive market (quality workmanship died). EMD moved final assembly to London ONT in 93 then subcontracted assembly when more capacity was needed (such as the "Special" order from the LIRR).
Well given the LIRR's backyard toolshed style maintenance, the horns will never sound right.
LIRR has NEVER had decent sounding horns. NEVER!!
Back in the old days of the Fairbanks-Morse units, they converted all the road units to the expensive, high-maintenance Nathan Airchime M-3R1's. A well-tuned M-3R1 is one of the BEST sounding locomotive air horns in my book. They need constant adjusting to sound right....even when brand new. It was rare to hear one on the LIRR sounding very good. This lasted until the GP38-2's...which were delivered with Leslie S-3LRF's. Many of the GP38-2's got the old Nathan M-3R1's from the Alco's (and the way theysounded, I suspect they were the ones originally put on the F-M's, just rebuilt too many times). The last group of GP38-2's (272-277) were delivered with Nathan P-5A's. The 277 was switched almost immediately after delivery to an Airchime K-5LA and NEVER sounded right, like it couldn't get fullair pressure to the horn on that unit...but it was very musical.
I always wanted to know the name of that Alco/early EMD horn. So it's
Nathan Airchime M-3R1's. Most of them sounded all right. Some Pennsy E-8's had them too, I heard when I road the NNY&LB in 1972. One of the Power Packs had one up to the bitter end. Do you know of any still in use by other railroads ?
If anyone wants to know about almost ALL the air horns used by the railroads, I did co-author a couple of articles on them with Mr. Deane Ellsworth back in the mid-1970's issues of "Extra 2200 South". Photos of all the horns were in the article, as well as musical notes, etc.
I grew up (Kindergarden to 9th grade) near the Port Jeff branch. I would tell time by the PM rush hour and the grade crossing and new when I had to be home for dinner. Now if the train was running late I ended up being grounded for missing supper.
I live two blocks from 2 LIRR grade crossings, bookending the Cedarhurst station. I have found that earplugs, available in sets of 6 for 2 bucks at Duane Reade, blocks the honking out nicely during the overnight hours (not to mention my wife's snoring).
Ah, so *I* am not the only one with a snoring wife....
I bought her some of those "Breathe Right" strips, and by golly, they did cut the snoring down quite a bit.....
I lived in Bay Shore from 1964 to 1968 -- and if anyone's been out there, you know what *I* am getting at. Grade crossings EVERY block for a mile and a half!!! And a 65 mile an hour track speed to boot. While most trains did stop at Bay Shore, a few didn't....but ALL the engineers went crazy blowing for the crossings -- nice, long regulation 14-L signals!!!
It got to the point that I could tell which one of the C-420's or RS-3's was going through town just by the sound of those great Nathan Airchime M-3R1 horns!!!
I don't think you are going to get any sympathy from anybody on this board! Ah, the smell of a train! Ah, the rumbling of those engines! Most SubTalkers would salivate to live in your apartment and would have an (censored sexual word) over the fact of seeing a diesel worktrain visiting outside the window. It is not like this is a daily occurrence! Sorry to sound mean, but I'm sure that the railroad was there before you moved next to it and you must assume the occasional inconvenience involved of necessary track/roadbed maintance. Ringing the bell and sounding the horn at 11 AM is more considerate than at 6 AM! Generally you have the relative quietness (except for flat wheels) of electirc trains on a ballasted roadway vs. an elevated structure. Heck I live in Queens too! The airplanes occasionally fly right over my house! I don't like it, but the planes were overhead in Maspeth long before Bill was!
I'll never understand people who move into places where there are trains, planes, etc around making noise... if that sort of thing is really going to annoy you, don't move there. i'd never live towards woodside of jackson heights with all the airplane noise since i know it would get on my nerves after awhile...
If they were there 3 hours, ot doesn't sound like any sort of mjor rehab project that warrants the expense or even consideration of spending money to tell everyone in the area "we're doing work, at this time'. Even if they did make that effort, more than half the people wouldn't read about it and complain just the same.
railroads generally only shut down an engine for maintaince - thus if they're waiting around parked for a few hours, they're going to idle and pollute a bit. Think of it this way: that branch is all electric, right? consider folks who live along disel branches and have to smell that exaust all the time. an occasional work train is about as annoying as the occasional street repaving around town... it's got to be done, but it'll be done with soon enough...
no one wants to deal with noise on a sunday morning, i'm sure, but unfortunately, late night and weekends are the best time for them to get the work done without disrupting service and pissing off still more people.
The railroad lines were there before most of the housing. Anyone moving to a house or buying near a ROW has to realize it's there and there is a reason that homes may be a little cheaper near there. If the ROW is a potential problem to anyone considering moving near it, they should look elsewhere. The lines have to run through someone's neighborhood, and the tracks were there long before most of the homes.
You say you are a railfan? I would think a real railfan would welcome a diversion from the boring M-1's & M-3's that are normally only on the P. Washington Branch, especially on a day when you're off.
Perhaps you should move to Sea Cliff, it's a ghost town with little transit access, no laundromat, not even a place for Roast Pork Fried Rice. LIRR has a right to do what it wants, when it wants for it's ROW. They are doing some work on the PW branch with track closures on the weekend that is very nessecary. They may be putting in concrete ties so trains will ride smoother and quieter? Who are you to complain? Wanna trade apartments? You can enjoy having to travel 20 minutes for food while I can have access to an electrified branch of the LIRR and NYCT bus routes!
And with what happened in Bayside this morning I'd be out with my camera taking pics. Perhaps you should join the Sea Cliff forum!
I would gladly put up with hearing trains all the time, it has gotta be better then drunks at
How ironic that you are telling me to trade places with you in Sea Cliff. I adore Sea Cliff so much that I often stay at my best friend's place in Sea Cliff. He lives near the Russian church on Carpenter Ave.
Sea Cliff is a charming town, yes, very different from the other suburban communities, but guess what, I'd rather live somewhere quiet and peaceful than with the hussle and bussle of Bayside.
I just found that paricular situation rather rude of them to start their work project so early in the morning while most people are still asleep on Sunday morning.
What is the Sea Cliff forum anyway?....
"What is the Sea Cliff forum anyway?.... "
:-0 I was joking, there is no Sea Cliff forum.
I guess my real gripe was the fact that the the 2 Diesel locos were left to idle for so long which was annoying. Is it so difficult to restart these locos once they're off? It would have saved on fuel and certainly on the noise value. I live on the 3rd floor of an apart. building that is 2 blocks away of the station. I have lived here since 1984 and have put up with most of what the LIRR has to dish out in the way of noises. In 1989, I had to put up with the revised flight patterns that caused the planes to my area where they had never been before.
Yes, I do have the luxury of being close the station and hearing the M1s and the M3s, but listening the Diesel engines humming away on my line is not what I bargained for. Someone should have more sense to leave the locos on for such extend time since the engines did not provide any electrical current to the work team.
I guess thats why people living in Nassau and Suffolk near the ROWS are glad that the LIRR does not do heavy duty freight hauling like years ago. Noise has always been a issue with the LIRR in modern times.
It has been many years since I was an active railfan, but in the 1960's and 1970's most diesels were not shut down, but just idled until needed. I have seen diesels idle over night, waiting for their next assignment
Depending on the condition of the batteries, they might not restart if they were shut down.
It seems that the larger units are left running. When I lived up by Suffern, they used to leave them idling in the yard over the weekend, and I've seen some iding at Port Newark for at least a day.
The only equipment I've seen shut down and restarted are the TA's work units, which the operators shut down when they aren't actually moving anything. But I guess they are designed that way, otherwise they'd be smoking out the work crews.
Was the train parked by you supporting any work (in other words, was there actual track work or other maintenance going on) or was it just sitting there? If it was just sitting, perhaps a polite request to the LIRR to spot the train in a less-populated area would help. But then, from the stories I heard about the LIRR, I don't know if they would pay any attention.
Railroads in general alway leave their locos idling. At Port Jefferson yard they leave the weekday rush hour trains idling all weekend (or at least they did with the MP-15s and GP-38s). Ever try to get one of those puppies started from a complete shutdown? Bring a book or three.
You're complaining about them starting to make noise at 11:10 a.m.?????
If you don't want the smell or noise of the railroad equipment, then don't live near the tracks. That simple.
I live next to a major freeway in southern California. Along the south end of the complex (150' from my apartment) is Metrolink, Amtrak, BNSF freights, about a hundred trains a day total. And 600' ABOVE the roof are Boeing 737's, 757's, and Airbus 320's going into the county airport. RIGHT OVER my head.
I don't ever even pay attention to the noise. (Darn thing was, those three days in September, it was strangely quiet.) But I always laugh at fools who move in and then start complaining about the noise. Like they didn't SEE the freeway, and like a jet didn't go over while they were being shown the place....the trains, well, at the speed they're doing, you don't even notice them. But after abotu a week, new residents here are whinign already about the noise. CRYBABIES....that's what they are.
I think he was complaining about the diesels sitting there idling for three hours before that. To some of us that would have been music to our ears.
You live that close to a railroad? You lucky devil! Want a roomie? If you ever move out, I'll take that damn place! I know a guy in Brooklyn who lives so close to the J, that he can take a broom and touch the El with it! He says you become desensitized to the noise.
There could be a great option to utilize the tracks used by Amtrak (Hell Gate Line) and take two tracks and create a line to Co-Op City. Those tracks are used so rarely, that it would be a benifit, and it would give subway fans a delite. A line that goes from the Bronx to Queens to Midtown Manhattan, it might seem odd, but it would work or make it a Metro North Line. Either one would have beifits, and it would haul alot of passengers. It would work perfectly with the East Side Access Project. Opinions
Well, a question first: Does the planned LIRR East Side Access program (LIRR to GCT) provide an alignment for trains from GCT to go through lower-level 63rd Street tunnel and then get onto the Amtrak northbound route across the Hell Gate?
That'd be necessary for Metro North.
As for subway ... which line? how? from where?
Doesn't Amtrak need those tracks to Access Penn Station? Nice dream, put feasible....NO.
Feasible YES!! Metro North can get to Penn from the New Haven line via Amtrak (trackage rights), run a number of trains to Penn. Since the number of Amtraks using the line is not as many as the south end (NYC to DC), Amtrak trains won't suffer dramatic delays. Metro North's usage will make the tracks more active, with more to be seen on the bridge and the line. All the MTA and Amtrak has to do is sit down, plan the service out, even at a location or two in Queens (north end) and in the East and Southern Bronx areas make station stops where people (mainly the Bronx big time) could get to midtown faster, not to mention possibly be a means to alleviate the congestion on the Lexington Avenue line (#6 mainly, 5 as well) serving people in the south and eastern Bronx, giving them a quicker way to midtown, with less congestion. It could be feasible and work out, but you know as well as I do that the MTA top brass aren't real big thinkers!! Time will tell.....especially once someone with sense makes it to the top brass position.
Very hard to imagine swapping Amtrak runs for Metro North runs until they boost capacity at Penn Station (many years hence). Plus you gotta add third rail, now it's overhead catenary.
Metro North M-2, M-4 and M-6 equipment runs with overhead catenaries in Connecticut and eastern Westchester county. They are third rail shoe equipped for NYC operation and pantograph equipped for NE Corridor operation (12,500 volts for catenary, what NE Corridor north of NYC uses, and 700 volts for the MNRR 3rd rail zones)
M-2 cars running up to New Haven use catenary just east of New Rochelle Station, I believe. Third rail is prohibited in Ct, anyway, so that accounts for the dual mode electrics on the New Haven lines into and out of GCT. MNCRR should not have a problem with that at all.
It could be feasible and work out, but you know as well as I do that the MTA top brass aren't real big thinkers!!
It's called the Metro-North Penn Station Access Study.
http://www.mta.info/planning/psas/index.html
They are indeed thinking about it. But I don't think there is enough capacity at Penn Station to allow enough service to be worth the effort at this time. We'd probably have to wait until LIRR can divert some trains in GCT before you get the ability to schedule any kind of reasonable rush-hour service into Penn via Hell Gate.
I thought something like this wasa on the table years ago,but was dismissed by the MTA brass.... for not being feasable...what ever thats suppose to mean.
Not feasible....the only thing that made it not feasible is the fact that the top brass who are dumb as mules yet overpaid would suffer a drop in their six digit paychecks when the money MTA as a whole makes is used for something useful, like this idea as a new line to better serve the riding public in the New York metro area. This line is a good idea, but as I said we are dealing with top brass who are dumb as mules and don't know their brains from washrags. Whatever brains they do have they oughta apply it towards serving the riding public in NY and making travel in NY better......get more people out of their cars and onto the trains. They'll someday begin to think about something other than their paychecks.
On a similar note, what about a connection from the M line to the New York connecting Railroad, which is right next to it at Metro Ave anyway, to bring the line up to Queens Boulevard, and beyond, along next to the freight tracks which only uses one track anyway. It would also be good for some intermmediate service, that has no service now.
This idea seems good, but won't work. Think of this, if the state and city approves the building of a freight rail tunnel from NJ to Bay Ridge rail yards for NYAR & NYCH, which is being considered and pushed forward as we speak by Giuliani and Gov. Pataki, freight service could see a dramatic increase on this line since it could make for CSXT to have a whole new freight route from the west and the south to New England, not to mention the already increased traffic now, even consideration of a second track there now.
build tunnel from Verizano Narrows bridge to R train in brooklyn. Then have R train go up South beach line to st.george and then to NJ along north shore and maybe to newerk airport.
it can and ought to be done as follows - just to piss off the NINBYS: a big elevated line over the freight tracks, a-la the air train over the van wyck. =P
Very good point. The M at Metropolitian is right next to the end of the Bay Ridge freight line. It is two tracks at that point, BUT if the CP, P&W, and NY & Atl pump up the float business like they want to OR if the tunnel to NJ ever gets built, THEN that line will get very busy with freight.
Mr rt__:^)
and IIRC the Pennsy in its wisdom originally had a 4 track ROW. so plenty of capacity.
Right. The New Haven line to Hell Gate was four track, and it handled both passenger and freight traffic. Over the years, the tracks were removed, but the ROW remains.
Actually I think they provided for 6, with the two outter most being trolley. Go up to the bridge & look, you'll see what I mean.
Mr rt__:^)
Actually I think they provided for 6, with the two outter most being trolley.
Did the Hell Gate Bridge ever have 6 operating tracks? Did trolleys ever run over the bridge? (from where to where?)
not that i know of. 4 is all there is width for, and there were 4 until sometime before the 90's, when the norther/easternmost freight track was taken out and/or dismantled.
There is room for only four tracks. They were numbered (from geographical-not RR-South) 1,2,5 and 6. Tracks 3 and 4 from the Harlem River Yard join the NY Connecting in the Bronx (tracks 2 and 5 separate as the Hell Gate line crosses Bronx Kill.) BTW, these track designations might not predate the Conrail-AMTRAK era.
Track 6 has been out of service for at least 15 years, and might be the source of confusion as to how wide the HG bridge is.
EGGS!
Eye agree with the Joe. They probally provided for 6 but never used more then 4.
Mr rt__:^)
If there's one bridge that could easily handle subway trains, it's got to be Hell Gate Bridge. It's so strong, you could have stacked Triplexes on it and it would have responded, "Heh!! Is that the best you can do?"
I think you're confused with the Queensboro Bridge, which once ran trolleys on its outer roadways.
When did they take down the elevator that was from the middle of the bridge to Welfare Island?
Dunno - it must have been decades ago.
Sorry, wrong bridge. Try the Queensboro bridge for the elevator to Welfare Island.
Sorry, wrong bridge. Try the Queensboro bridge for the elevator to Welfare Island.
Right. Except now it's called ROOSEVELT Island and has been for at least 30 years! And it has its own subway stop, so presumably less need for the elevator ....
What is the latest on that tunnel they had planned there. I know Gulianni was a strong fighter for this, but I haven't heard anything in a long time. (even before the news was taken over by the events of Sept 11)
Funny how I just thought to ask this as someone posted the Daily News article, which I didn't see before I posted this. That answers my question!
metro north, maybe - they talk of doing it from time to time, but a subway? That'll never happen.
Using the AMTRAK ROW for MNRR would be no problem as the two share ROW through Ct. This would provide MNRR from Ct. West Side access that they don't have now. Not a bad thought BUT, Penn station is currently at capacity + during peak hours.
However, NYCT would not gain much, if anything by this. What is the market for subway service Bronx - Queens. Not much, I'm afraid. At least not enough to justify the legal and contractual issues raised by converting the NYCT to FRA standards which would be necessary under your suggestion. Putting track in every available space is what model railroaders do. When you are talking about $millions per mile, you need to do your homework.
Just run a certain nnumber of Metro North (selected services) from Penn via Amtrak NE Corridor north to New Haven, as capacity warrants. If there is a space zone where the runs could be added, find a way to add them. The idea is good, and promising. Ask the MTA brass to do the homework!!
I asked about that once a couple of months ago, and was told that PENN station was full to capacity and there was no room for any more trains. Pity.
We have to wait until LIRR can go to Grand Central, then they may have more capacity at PENN
1. it would have to have fare higher than a 1.50 to support the cost of building it.
2. Hell Gates is overhead wire, NO third rail
3. FRA territory, you would have to run specially modified cars over the bridge
4. where will it connect to in bronx? pelham line term? good idea, too little traffic.
Who says run a subway there. Metro North can run on it and make for the service there. M-2, M-4, and M-6 all operate both as 3rd Rail and via overhead catenary, enabling it to operate on the LIRR end and the Hell Gate line of Amtrak. Good idea.....FRA railcars, no need to modify anything....and believe me anyone who is tired of the slowness and delays on the Lex line would love the faster trip to midtown, especially since Amtrak doesn't make big big use of this end of the NE Corridor like it does on the south end to DC from Penn. And those people using the service to avoid the craziness of the Lex line delays would more than likely not mind the little extra fare to ride to midtown faster and less delayed. Ridership from Bronx stations on the Harlem and Hudson lines are good because those there are people who wanna get to GCT avoiding the 4,5,6 mad house. I think this could work as well in the favor of the east and southern Bronx commuters, giving them another option to get to midtown with fewer delays amd a better ride....faster too. This idea is good....all the MTA top brass has to do is something none of them know how to do.....THINK!! PLAN!!
USE THE BRAIN GOD GAVE THEM!!! Someday they will have someone to do all that, and maybe transit in the NYC Metro area will be improved significantly. Mr. Rivera should keep the ideas flowing, the Hell Gate idea is promising.
Note MNRR third rail is different from subway/LIRR third rail. You would have to install a new shoe with a new switch in the cab.
Let MNCRR use catenary only in PENN, if that ever comes to happen. No need for extra third rail shoes.
I like third rail cause there are no wires to fall but then you can't run high voltage without the possiablity of arcing. Even though I like third rail more than overhead but overhead is technological supirior.
I think you can handle further distances also, with overhead wire than with third rail
Let MNCRR use catenary only in PENN, if that ever comes to happen. No need for extra third rail shoes.
Nope. MNRR's only catenary line is the New Haven. The study looks at running all three east-of-Hudson lines (Hudson, Harlem, New Haven) into Penn (from both the east and west) ... 2 of them use only third rail.
I didn't think of that. If they assign some Metro North Trains to Penn, only Hudson and Marlem Trains, only Metro North can use the tracks assigned to them because of the third rail issue. How do they expect to solve that problem?
FL9s can run on both over-the-rail and under-the-rail sections.
So could the old "Standards" EMUs in the Western suburbs of Paris,
France. They could make shoes that can run on both.
How does that work on the FL9's? Goes up or down? Do the new Genesis units have that capability?
I didn't think of that. If they assign some Metro North Trains to Penn, only Hudson and Marlem Trains, only Metro North can use the tracks assigned to them because of the third rail issue. How do they expect to solve that problem?
Well, the West Side Line is easy. Don't think it has any electricity on it since it's used by Hudson Line trains to Albany and points north and west ... no catenary. So, add MN-spec third rail. Dunno what you do inside the Penn Station yard complex, maybe dedicated MN tracks?
New Haven Line is tougher. Do MN and Amtrak use same kind of catenary?
>>Do MN and Amtrak use same kind of catenary? <<
Yes. The very same wires are use by all trains on the Noerthest Corridor.
I think FL-9's have automatic dual position shoes.
Nice idea, but there are too many obstacles, like not enough traiifc from the Bronx to Queens to justify the connection, NIMBYs, the FRA, the costs, and I could go on and on. The Second Ave. subway still is not up and running, and it may languish for many more years to come.
You have a great deal of vision, and many wonderful ideas, but there are those out there who would throw an anchor to a drowning man because it is what they want. Keep those ideas coming, and never give up, because one day you just might have a gold mine on your hands.
I think it might be best for MNRR-New Haven Line to take the line. From Grand Central go thru the lower level tunnel at 63 St to Sunnyside yard. A new connection would have to be made to connect with the Amtrak tracks going across the Hell Gate Bridge to the South Bronx. Use the abondoned stops formally on the old Westchester to the E180 St area and then use the abondoned stops from there to the City Line on the New Haven. After it crosses the border it would continue running normal to Conn.
Excellent but how about a train using the compleate original New york, Westchester and boston railroad ROW to the end (Port Cheaster)
I believe much of that line has been torn up, built over with houses and the like, or allowed to revert back to nature, and trying to get it back for rail use would cause more headaches than it would be worth, not to mention the NIMBY factor, so you might have to forget that. Nice idea, though.
The ends of the NYW&B has been both nature and residence claimed. Not to mention good ol' #5 makes up the south end of the NYW&B.
Well for naughty neibors I have a TBM waiting to be use. They will notice no difference because it goes under there house with out touchung it. Anyways I would like a subway in my backyard.
The difficulty arises when that time comes and you want to SELL your house - and the market for it is zero because of its location. I love trains, but not everyone else does, and that is reality. Then there is the spouse, who has considerable input into major decisions and major purchases. In the past, railroad infrastructure was built without regard to who lived where, largely because most of the land where the ROW was to be located was vacant or thinly populated. Now, there is a large assortment of legal issues which must be addressed before one shovelful of earth is turned.
TBM with insulation? Or a law that a houses market value can't be reduced because of a nearby ROW.
The chances of that happening are very remote, so it would be like betting on a jackass in a racehorse race. No good.
Wishful thinking. But it won't happen!
First of all, transit often boosts housing values in the vicinity. Second, if people on the RoW complain, about descreased value you can make a permiment unlimited transit pass a part of the property. Every person legally residing on the property would be able to use transit for free. It costs MN or whoever next to nothing and provides just compensation to property owners.
With a limit so they don't start selling the unlimited rides!
Also thats not wishfull thinking cause thats already done on MNRR.
On commuter rail it would just be a special photo ID pass.
smart!
It will be reduced in value, because alot of people don't want to live near a ROW. No law will stop it from being reduced.
I guess you don't know what market value is.
Build an underground RR under a neighborhood? Sounds like a good idea. But the NIMBY's wouldn't like that one bit.
Well can't a lawyer say it benifits more people than it hurts by a vast ratio. Also were being nice that this isn't a grade leval type construction were talking about here.
Well can't a lawyer say it benifits more people than it hurts by a vast ratio.
The law works the other way right now. If anyone is affected in any way, you have to pander to their complaints to get anything built ... and even if you do, you still might not be allowed to build anything. The fact that it benefits many more people than it hurts is not a valid argument. Otherwise, we'd have a subway to LGA by now.
Then how did moses do it? He drew a staight line on a pic of the bronx skyline and it was built. Also doesn't the State have a right to condem and seize? or offer an alternative of building over? Maybe there should be anti-legal harrasment laws made so if the person sues because he wants money from potential profit when he sells his property, he will lose and the property will be seized:)
That is not how it works. The NIMBY crowd has politically connected friends in the State House who can and will block any proposal that is not to their liking. They can tie up a proposal in comittee for years so that it dies without even getting before the full body. If a lawsuit is filed, motions can be filed to delay the case so that years go by before an appointment is even made, and the litigant may be dead by the time the case is heard. Plus, life for anyone who displeases them can be made very uncomfortable, if you know what I mean. You have to do your homework on this one, because your opponents will surely have done theirs.
Let's see. Polluting highway in my back yard, OK. Airport in my back yard, OK. Nuclear plant in my back yard, OK. Naval base with missiles in my back yard, OK. Nonpoluting, efficient, cheap, reliable, safe, property value increasing train in my back yard, NO WAY! What is the matter with people? I'd love to live next to an El.
Then line up some political support for your viewpoint, and then you may get some clout. Otherwise, no way. You must do your homework, because the other guy will surely have done his.
Then how did moses do it?
Part of the reason why it's so difficult to build anything over NIMBY objection is because Moses did what he did. People got angry that the city and state could just build highways etc. through their neighborhoods, and the resulting changes in the way public works projects get built have caused today's situation, where practically nothing big can get built without spending millions of dollars and many years on planning studies and court cases.
how about njt-metronorth-lirr join service to the newark airport stop. there alot of land for turn around yard. of course you need the extra tunnels under the river
Would the joint service be going thru Grand Central or Penn Station? Thru service via Penn would be easier. To do likewise thru GCT means a new tunnel built in Manhattan as well as the Hudson.
I can't remember which, but there were studies into the idea of a tunnel from Penna into GCT, which were for all intents and purposes endorsed by the RPA. I think it was Penn Station Access.
No, the Penn Station Access Study is the MTA study on how/whether to reroute some Metro-North trains into Penn Station via the Hell Gate line or the West Side line.
The Access to the Region's Core study is including consideration of both another rail tunnel under the Hudson and a Penn Station-GCT link.
Where did the NYw&B go south of 180th ST is there still ROW there?
South of 180 St the Westchester ran on the current Amtrak line to the South Bronx. Some of the abondoned platforms are still standing there. However the connection from the Westchester to Amtrak is no longer there. MTA built a bus depot there. I had read that work trains coming from Linden Shops in Brooklyn could go to 180 St via LIRR Bay Ridge Branch and the NY Connecting Railroad to the Hell Gate and then via Amtrak to 180 St. But that was a while ago.
You'd have to plow thru a good part of Westchester County to do that.
I don't think a route via Queens would really be necessary for MNRR-New Haven unless rail usage increased to the point where the upper level at Grand Central reached capacity. But it would give the railroad an option of redirecting trains through the 63rd St. tunnel if there was some problem between 63rd St. and the Harlem-NH line split in the Bronx.
And if enough LIRR trains could be diverted to Grand Central, I'd like to see them electrify the West Side line south of the Harlem River bridge, which would give MNRR-Hudson line trains the option of going to Penn Station if there were some problem between Spuyten Duyvil and 63rd St. that backed up trains there.
Now that is what I like to see - some forward thinking. An alternate route like that would be a real godsend in case of an emenrgency condition blocking one of the lines. Good thinking.
If anything rerouting New Haven service via the Hell Gate would reduce congestion coming down Park Ave. Maybe there isn't much there now. But this way Hudson and Harlem service would be on the upper level and New Haven and LIRR would be on the lower level. MTA could make an agreement with Amtrak about using the Westside line. But I don't know how well Metro North and Amtrak can co-exist on the same line. How many tracks are there from Penn Station to Spuyten Duyvil? 4 tracks are one thing. 2 tracks would be another.
The WSFL is two tracks up to the Harlem River, where it joins the 4 track Hudson line. Capacity may be a problem, but since the line would need to be electrified and then resignalled, that will be addressed.
The WSFL is two tracks up to the Harlem River, where it joins the 4 track Hudson line. Capacity may be a problem, but since the line would need to be electrified and then resignalled, that will be addressed.
BUT, the actual West Side Connector (takes off from the old freight line north of Javits to feed into Penn) is just ONE track. They had to thread it through a lot of stuff including support columns for a big building above, and even at that they had to transfer loads and then remove one column footing.
I think that single-track section could be a bottleneck, though MNRR in their studies doesn't flag it. Yet.
In fact, part of the Amtk west side line is 2-track. You can see them from the HH Pkway in upper Manhattan. It narrows to 1 track to cross the Spuyten VDuyvil swing bridge. But this bridge once carried 2 tracks, and I bet it could again.
I recall that the Amtrak West Side line once had three or four tracks at some points. Laying new track is relatively easy.
The real question is station capacity at both Penn and Grand Central.
I recall that the Amtrak West Side line once had three or four tracks at some points. Laying new track is relatively easy.
NewHavenJohn & SteveBoatti: No, no, NO! The "West Side CONNECTOR" is the short but crucial piece of new track (c. 1990 or so) that takes off from the West Side LINE to feed into Penn Station.
THIS is what's single-tracked. It was major construction ($30 million in mid-'80s $$$ IIRC) that had to go through foundations under private property. Remember, Amtrak was formed about 1970 but it took another 20 years to consolidate all their NYC operations into Penn Station. It was a pretty cool construction project. Like the 63rd Street Connector, short in distance but complex in design and construction.
You could probably do four tracks on the West Side Line from the bridge to the Connector ... but you still have to neck down to a single run of track to get from the West Side LINE into Penn Station.
I stand corrected.
As a rail line is only as good as its least tracked portion, this means that there is not too much chance to put more MN trains into Penn.
If the 7 is extended to the Javits Center, could a line be run south from the Amtrak west side track to meet the 7?
As a rail line is only as good as its least tracked portion, this means that there is not too much chance to put more MN trains into Penn.
Someone who's more operational than I am can tell us maximum inflow/outflow. Nice thing is, Amtrak doesn't run THAT many Empire Line trains, so there's gotta be room for 1-2 MN trains/hour in and out.
The Hudson Line is pretty busy but they seem to accommodate everyone. I've laid by once in awhile on a MN train to POK as an Amtrak goes roaring by. Of course generally we pass it again sooner or later!
If the 7 is extended to the Javits Center, could a line be run south from the Amtrak west side track to meet the 7?
Well, given sufficient $$$, sure. By why on earth would you? Dumping passengers from commuter suburbs at the Javits Center is kinda useless. Remember, you can't get there from here. Much, much, MUCH better to run 'em into Penn Station where there are 2 N-S subways and the east end of the complex is 7th Avenue. Remember Javits is on 12th.
If you have a single track going to Penn (how long is it?), you are restricted in two-way operation. The Amtrak service isn't going to matter -- it's the question of what you do with MN trains once the reach Penn.
There are two ways to get these trains out of Penn -- send them to Long Island or send them back. If you have trains going both ways on the connector, it could get rather tricky once delays take place.
Too bad they got rid of the freight line that used to run down the west side of Manhattan to around (I believe) Canal Street. If they had kept that open, we could have another lower Manhattan access route.
Too bad they got rid of the freight line that used to run down the west side of Manhattan to around (I believe) Canal Street. If they had kept that open, we could have another lower Manhattan access route.
They didn't. It's called The High Line, and it still exists down to 14th Street. There is a well-connected community group that wants to turn it into a linear park, and they have just sued NYC to force them to comply with their own land-use processes and hold public hearings on the proposed demolition of the trestle, which the Giuliani administration is trying to ram through before departing.
They have quite a nice Friends of the High Line that gives you all the details.
Thanks for clarifying. The MTA Planning Sudy (preliminary alternatives document) does I.D. "possible double tracking of the Empire Connection" as a need for this route.
Also, I discovered that that document has TRACK MAPS of the Metro-North system (at least as far as Croton, North White and Stamford. Someone asked about these a couple of days ago.
The MTA Planning Sudy (preliminary alternatives document) ... document has TRACK MAPS of the Metro-North system (at least as far as Croton, North White and Stamford.
Is the paper version, or are they available online? (I wonder if they'd have been yanked off the Web since 9/11 .... ) If only on paper, how does one get a copy? I'd LOOOOOVE to have those track maps.
Go to MTA website, click on Planning Studies (lower left of page), then clickk on Access to Penn Station. On the Penn Station page, in the text at the bottom, click on Preliminary Alternatives. You will need Acrobat 4.0 to open that document. Within this long document, there are various alternatives, and in 3 of them, there are "figures" that show track maps of the MNRR system. They do not have a track map of Grand Central, however. There are various rail books that have GCT track maps. I don't rmemeber which ones.
Aha. I had been just reading the results of the initial screening -- didn't get to read all the others. Cool, and thanks!
Two issues here--ultimately linked. Do we expect ATK or successors to ever need more than two tracks? If we think yes, then as TD points out no Subway withou FRA . But, even if the tracks remain FRA there are possibilities. I have suggested before and still believe MN/CGOT servce from Jamaica would be useful. We have a growing suburb to suburb commute market even befor the attack. Secondly, when AirTrain is in service a CDOT connection for airport users will be useful. Very little new track need be built--mostly the issues are third rails and catenary. Nothing technically difficult only politics and traditions.
Good idea I don't have to go to GCT all the time
I can see the benefit's of a MNRR line on those tracks
-Non stop express from New Rochelle to Penn Station
-A possible connection to the 6 at Pelham bay park
-Since the tracks run within a few miles of the 6 there should be little complaints with NIMBY people South of Stillwell Avenue(Not the one with the amusement park)
-Amtrak can run trains into Grand Central as a commuter rail line(which is good for the MTA because more money will come into that station)
-Amtrak trains can still use the bridge for trains going south of Washington D.C.
-The fact that MNRR trains can go into Penn station(Which I previously mentioned)
Though to every good thing there's at least 1 bad thing
-Because I don't think the bridge has 4 tracks ,2 other tracks will be needed if Amtrak want's to continue running trains on the bridge.
-The stations already used by the MNRR might be abandoned(I should know,a Q local train at rush hour is empty until Prospect Park)because people like fast rail service.
Hell gates has space for four tracks, 3 were open when the bridge was opened and now it is 2 tracks. The space for the fourth track was used in constrution. If you want to check without a Amtrak ticket see how many overhead wires there are (porcelin insulators).
Isn't there a third track for freight trafic?
I believe there are 3 open tracks -- 2 for Amtrak and one for freight.
The line has great capacity for future commuter rail expansion if there is a market for it. First of all, you will probably not see any service into Penn Station due to tunnel constraints. The Hell Gate bridge is 4 track, 3 of which currently are in service with one being a slow speed, non-signaled freight track. Most of the New Yoek Connecting RR line from New Rochelle is a 4 or 6 track RoW. However there are some problems, namely:
-Most of the overpasses have been de-constructed (ie non-used trackbeds have been removed).
-Pellham Bay drawridge is only two tracks. There is room for a second span (the footings exist), but it would have to be entirely new.
-There might also be a problem with that bridge over the Bronx river. It is no wider then 4 tracks, but w/ the freight service on the branch you might need 5 or 6 tracks.
-The connection with the LIAR Main Line from GATE to HAROLD is only 2 tracks.
For the bridge you can have high speed frieght. Ever THNIK about it MTA.
If everyone would go to the MTA website and click on Planning Studies, they would see that this is an active study by the MTA -- to run NH line trains over the Hell Gate into Penn -- as well as Hudson and Harlem line trains into Penn via the Amtrak West Side line. There is quite a detailed discussion of alternative routes and transit modes.
"Those tracks are used so rarely, that it would be a benifit, and it would give subway fans a delite."
Lines aren't built for railfans, they're built for passengers. While Co-op City is in Dyre (sorry) need of rapid transit, the Hell Gate tracks are in an awkward position, way off to the East. As such, there is a reason those tracks are used so rarely.
MATT-2AV
Here's what I'd do:
1) Buy the Hell Gate line from Amtrak, along with Penn Station. Heck, they're desperate for cash, and that means pennies on the dollar prices (let's face it, wavbe $500 million in front of them they'd jump for it). Change Penn to 12kv 60Hz like Amtrak should have done 25 years ago.
2) Reconfigure Penn Station for commuter service, from track level up.
3) New MNRR stations :South New Rochelle (a tad south), Co-op city, somewhere in the Bron (no, that's not the name, just the location!), Astoria (connect with N - hey, let's extend the N to LGA, and we get direct service from CT to the airport!)
4) Use M-2/4/6 cars
5) Tell Amtrak they now get 15 minutes max at Penn Station for each train. End the layup in Penn crap. This gets us capacity.
6) Look into run through services with NJT. Maybe cross share Arrows, and run Newark to Stamford, etc.
7) Rewire the Bronx line like it should have been 15 years ago, and straighten the curves.
8) As a future thing, maybe buy up the freight portion from ConJob, and wire it to where it intersects with the LIRR line. Make a small junction here, and run to Jamacia. TaDa! A totally useless, but cool route from New Haven to LI. MN could then run say, Hicksville to Bridgeport, and other services. The LIRR could offer Greenwich to Montauk, thus connecting two vital pockets of supernobbishness in the area
9) of course, this could all be done pretty cheaply, and be really usefull, but it'll never happen :(
>>8) As a future thing, maybe buy up the freight portion from ConJob, and wire it to where it intersects with the LIRR line. Make a small junction here, and run to Jamacia. TaDa! A totally useless, but cool route from New Haven to LI. MN could then run say, Hicksville to Bridgeport, and other services. The LIRR could offer Greenwich to Montauk, thus connecting two vital pockets of supernobbishness in the area <<
NH to LI would be far from useless. It would connect with AirTrain, thus giving CT and Upstaters a one-change conenction to JFK.
"Tell Amtrak they now get 15 minutes max at Penn Station for each train. End the layup in Penn crap. This gets us capacity."
You DO realize that Amtrak operates not only Acela/NEC trains but also LONG-DISTANCE trains out of Penn, right?!? There's no way in hell to have a long-distance train like the Lake Shore Limited occupy a platform for no more than fifteen minutes and still do what has to be done.
Actually I agree w/ Phil on this one. ATK makes little effort to expedite either loading or discharging trains. (unless you count the stampede for late running trains when finally announced) Look at the 'dwell' for the supposed high speed Acela Expresses. All of the train support work should be at Sunnyside as in PRR times.
ATK makes little effort to expedite either loading or discharging trains. (unless you count the stampede for late running trains when finally announced) Look at the 'dwell' for the supposed high speed Acela Expresses. All of the train support work should be at Sunnyside as in PRR times.
Could well be ... but commuter trains don't have to load either luggage or food. Amtrak does. And IMHO Amtrak does a far better job of emptying their toilets than LIRR.
3) New MNRR stations :South New Rochelle (a tad south), Co-op city, somewhere in the Bron (no, that's not the name, just the location!), Astoria (connect with N - hey, let's extend the N to LGA, and we get direct service from CT to the airport!)
What ever happened to the planned extention of the N to LaGuardia?
no one of any 'importance' wants it. nimbys, the tlc, etc.
watched a quicky pbs history of NYC last night, and judging by the way Moses rammed his highway projects and 'urban renewal' (ie: housing projects) down the collective throat of the city, it's of little surprise that nimbysism rose in this town to the degree it's at.
Have you ever been to where Amtrak going to Hell Gate goes over the Ditmars Blvd Station on the N? It's quite a distance going up and down.
I didn't say it should go up the the Hell Gate Bridge, just an extention of the Astoria el to La Guardia. It was a little off topic from the original post, but someone had mentioned extention to LAG in a response.
Have you ever been to where Amtrak going to Hell Gate goes over the Ditmars Blvd Station on the N?
I didn't say it should go up the the Hell Gate Bridge, just an extention of the Astoria el to La Guardia.
No, he meant in response to the previous posting:
New MNRR stations: South New Rochelle (a tad south), Co-op city, somewhere in the Bron (no, that's not the name, just the location!), Astoria (connect with N ... )
Connecting a new MNRR line to the N would require a major vertical connection 'cause the Hell Gate approach is far above the N at Ditmars.
It would also destroy the Ditmars shopping area.
How? By adding to the traffic? Businesses love traffic.
All you need is an elevator from the street to the Astoria El and then to the Railroad.
I misread the earlier post. I thought he meant a track connection.
It's still on the MTA's radarscope. It's main opponent was Vallone, and now that he's left office, it may have a better chance of proceeding.
It has a much better chance of proceeding.
read: it'll still never happen
It's not the highest priority project now. Rebuilding South Ferry, completing the Manny B repairs, East Side Access (no NIMBY there), getting 2nd Av subway off the ground (no NIMBY there either) and even extending the 7 to help lower Manhattan's recovery are getting a lot of attention.
And with EWR and JFK now having rail access (or getting it soon), giving it to LGA is not as urgent (???) - perhaps MTA is looking at the NIMBY problem and putting off a decision.
Never say never - you might have to eat crow...
Wouldn't a trainline to LGA have a stop for Rikers Island? I got on a bus at Queensboro Plaza into Manhattan one night and I was greeted by a segment of the population that few see outside of jury service. Peter
There might be a transfer at Riker's Island. More than likely it will be on the Queens side of the bridge there. Probably there won't.
I remember one time I was working at Queens Plaza. There was this one woman crying. She said "I left my son at Riker's Island!". I had to avoid looking at her because I was laughing at that.
Not much to laugh about there. Her son must have broken her heart. :0(
I was thinking the same way.
i'd doubt they'd make such a stop at the end of th bridge - nobody would want anyone even related to someone on that island on the subway.
i fully suspect there will be a rail link to lga someday, though i highly doubt it will be an extended N line. i think i've just seen one too many threads about it not to say 'never' now... =)
And with EWR and JFK now having rail access (or getting it soon), giving it to LGA is not as urgent (???) - perhaps MTA is looking at the NIMBY problem and putting off a decision.
Not to mention the Newark and JFK rail accesses come from both directions, whereas an N train extension only really helps people from Manhattan and Astoria.
The whole idea of airport access by rail is widely viewed as being for passengers. In reality, it's projected to be at least 50% employee access. And I bet that few of LaGuardia's employees live in the parts of Manhattan served by the N train.
Robert Moses did more than try to wreck the subways. As Parks Commissioner, he tried to replace trees with pavement.
Happily, New York has undone some of that damage. Point your browsers to:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/02/nyregion/thecity/02BROT.html
Good it will put abandoned parking lots to good use. Also it will have more vegiation which helps reduce polution levals in the City.
I'm not sure about one thing. If service was to go over the Hell Gate Bridge, would it go to Grand Central or to Penn Station?
63st tunnel, there was supposed to be a connection to sunnyside yard.
So it would go to Grand Central?
It might go to Grand Central provided that the connection via the lower level of the 63rd Street tunnel is completed. Otherwise, such trains would have to go to Penn Station.
#3 West End Jeff
I think MTA is trying to avoid using Amtrak's ROW. Every once in a when Amtrak goes out on strike the LIRR is not able to use Penn Station. Service from Long Island goes nuts when trains have to terminate at Jamaica or Flatbush or Hunters Point or Long Island City. That is why MTA is pushing for the 63 St tunnel.
I definitely agree that the 63rd Street tunnel is a necessity for the LIRR.
#3 West End Jeff
If the 63 st connector is finished then both.until then Penn Station
The 63rd Street tunnel has another set of tubes in it. However, I thought the LIRR was supposed to go to GTC. Only Amtrak goes over Hell Gate. You could send Metro North over Hell Gate, as well. Amtrak, LIRR and Metro North should all be using GCT in addition to Penn. It has over 100 tracks, and is certainly capable of handling the service. Anyway, Amtrak used to use GCT until the West Side connector was built from the West Side freight line. Aren't they planning a connection between Penn and GCT as well? How about New Jersey Transit stopping at GCT. New York would certainly be considered a very hot railspot then!
I'm always wondering about the people managing the the tracks at GCT, would they feel overwhelmed?
They managed the tracks in the good old days.
I thought the idea of this thread was to discuss if the subway or MN could travel over the Hell Gate and go to GC. I chose MN as going that route and explained what route it would go. It would be somewhat minor repair work. Rebuild the stations that were on the Westchester (south of E180 St) and the Amtrak line from that point up to City Line when the New Haven line currently comes in from Wakefield. Maybe the work would not be so minor. But it would be easier to do than to build tunnels from 42/Park south to 34/Park then connecting tunnels to 34/7.
"Amtrak, LIRR and Metro North should all be using GCT in addition to Penn."
I see the advantages to the commuter trains, and I would love to see GCT as the intercity gateway to New York City instead of Penn Basement, but IMHO Amtrak is better off having ONE downtown station in any city served by more than one route so that passengers changing trains don't have to lug their bags on a cab, subway, or bus to get from one station to the other. IIRC, the only place where Amtrak has (actually, will have, as of Dec. 15) split stations is Boston, where it is an unfortunate NECESSITY. To purposely contrive to make people ride subways or cabs to change trains in New York when they don't have to now would be utterly ludicrous.
"Anyway, Amtrak used to use GCT until the West Side connector was built from the West Side freight line."
And the connector was built so that Amtrak could have ONE New York City station for the convenience of passengers changing trains.
The lower level of the 63rd St tunnel was built for the purpose of providing the LIRR access to Grand Central Station. Metro-Morth trains already have direct access to Grand Central Station via the Park Ave. viaduct so running MNRR trains over the Hells Gate Bridge into Grand Central would be longer and of no advantage except for rail fans. West-Side access would be the only advantage.
The only possible advantage would be J.I.C. the Park Ave ROW was totally brought to her knees and given the "coup de grace" by a state or federal Legislature full of posturing Flagwavers.
avid
Actually, the late 1960s plan for the lower level of the 63rd Street Tunnel was for LIRR trains to access a NEW terminal on E. 48th Street in the vicinity of Third Avenue.
David
Really, it wasn't meant to go to Grand Central originily?
I think MTA was going to build a new terminal on the East Side. But when MTA was able to get Grand Central, they decided to take that instead.
The 1960s plan, as I said, was to go to the new Metropolitan Transportation Center. By the 1970s it was apparent that there would be no money to build the center. The LIRR-to-Grand Central idea got going in earnest in the late 1990s, though I believe it was discussed earlier, perhaps as early as the '70s.
David
The 1974 MTA Annual Report (page 21) talks about "technical studies" of improvements to LIRR service:
"Two studies concern plans for a new Midtown terminal. One plan is for a new terminal under Third Avenue in the vicinity of 48th Street, connecting with the lower level of the new 63rd Street tunnel under the East River, which will be used by Long Island Rail Road trains. An alternative plan would use a portion of Grand Central Terminal as the LIRR's East Midtown Terminal."
The 1973 annual report (page 25) also refers to the idea, but more briefly.
David
So I take it that in 1973 and 1975 the plan was for either 3 Ave/E48 St OR Grand Central and later on it was decided Gtand Central?
From page 15 of the 1977 MTA Annual Report:
"In July 1977, the MTA Board approved Grand Central Terminal as the site for the proposed East Side Midtown Terminal of the LIRR rather than another proposal to construct a new transportation center in Manhattan at East 48th Street and Third Avenue." The reason given was EXTREME opposition to the E. 48th Street location by elected officials and Turtle Bay residents. They determined that the cost would be about the same for either alternative, and connections to NYCT(A) facilities would be better at Grand Central. They were looking for $400 million for design and construction (I don't know whether that was to be the total price).
Guess that settles that...and guess that the more things change, the more they stay the same!
David
For once I agree with the NIMBYS. Grand Central is the best place for the LIRR access.
The MTA planning study on Penn Sta. access (available on the MTA website) has identified many benefits. These include eliminating the need for West Side commuters to transfer to subways, increasing Metro-North capacity into Manhattan, as well as easier connections to Amtrak, NJT, etc. The planning study also advocates running HUdson and Harlem line trains to Penn via Amtrak's west side line.
The MTA planning study on Penn Sta. access ... advocates running Hudson and Harlem line trains to Penn via Amtrak's west side line.
Actually, all three of Metro North's east-of-Hudson lines, IIRC. But, interesting differences among lines:
HUDSON LINE: This one's easy ... follow the West Side Line across the bridge at Spuyten Duyvil just like Amtrak, into Penn Station from the west. Possible capacity constraint at the single-track section of the West Side Connector, or not enough trains in/out even adding MN to Amtrak?
NEW HAVEN LINE: Again, conceptually easy ... follow Amtrak route across Hell Gate into Penn from the east. No mention of reactivating local stations on the old ROW in the alternative summaries, but could add a new local service I suppose. Anyone know more bout that one?
HARLEM LINE: Here's where it gets interesting. The study recommends running Harlem Line trains into Penn Station from the WEST ... down the West Side Line. They note this requires "track reconstruction at Spuyten Duyvil to connect the Harlem and Hudson Line track alignments".
Assume this would be reactivating the third side of the Spuyten Duyvil triangle so you could come northwest up the east side of the river, west through Marble Hill, then down the West Side. Is the triangle track at The Hub (real RR name?) already in use to connect SB New Haven trains to NB Hudson trackage and vice versa?
The "Hub" at the old Mott Haven yard is the northernmost interchange between the three Metro North East of Hudson lines.
There is a single track that allows trains to transfer from the Harlem / New Haven Divisions to the Hudson Division. If you got a train stuck there, it would take out at least two tracks.
The problem with routing trains from the Harlem / New Haven Divisions to the Hudson Division is that they run south to Mott Haven (138th Street), then north to Marble Hill (235th Street), and then south to Penn Station (33rd Street). A lot of extra travel. Also, at Spuyten Duyvil, the train would have to cross the inbound line to get to Penn.
The better plan would be to put New Haven trains across the Hell Gate Bridge, Hudson Trains across the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge, and leave the Harlem Trains alone.
Reopening the East Bronx stations on the New Haven would also provide a subway alternative.
A different point -- Aren't both Grand Central and Penn Station at capacity during peak hours? I know the problem at Grand Central comes about 6:00PM to 6:30PM, when all of the trains that started in GCT have left, but not many have come in on the single track used for inbound service.
The "Hub" at the old Mott Haven yard is the northernmost interchange between the three Metro North East of Hudson lines. There is a single track that allows trains to transfer from the Harlem / New Haven Divisions to the Hudson Division. If you got a train stuck there, it would take out at least two tracks.
Is there room to double-track it? I'd assume that if this plan ever comes to fruition and you're running regular service through that transfer, you'd want 2 tracks.
The problem with routing trains from the Harlem / New Haven Divisions to the Hudson Division is that they run south to Mott Haven (138th Street), then north to Marble Hill (235th Street), and then south to Penn Station (33rd Street). A lot of extra travel.
That's why I was surprised they chose to pursue this alternative.
The better plan would be to put New Haven trains across the Hell Gate Bridge, Hudson Trains across the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge, and leave the Harlem Trains alone.
Well, that may be likely. All the alternatives are being evaluated independently for ridership, etc. Each line's construction can be done independently. I'd bet that if any of this happens (once LIRR-GCT connection opens up slots at Penn for MNRR to use in the first place), Hudson comes first, New Haven comes second and Harlem third if at all.
Another note: According to the Metro North Penn Station Access Study from November 2000, they rejected the idea of putting Harlem Line trains across Hell Gate due to the "circuitous routing via reverse-direction connections". There are also problems with turning radii, conflicts with current GCT-bound operations, acquisition of operating industrial lands and parkland impacts.
So why not just put the New Haven Branch over the Hell Gate? Trains would leave Grand Central. Make a right to go thru the 63 St Tunnel. When it comes out into Sunnyside Yards it connects to the Amtrak line going to the Hell Gate. After it gets to the Bronx it could stop at the old Westchester stops at Casanova, Hunt's Point, Westchester Ave and West Farms. After passing the old turn off for what is now the Dyre line, it could make stops at the old RR stops at Van Nest, Morris Place, Westchester Square and I'm sure there were others. After the line crosses into Westchester County, it would meet up with the current New Haven Branch coming from the Harlem Branch at Wakefield and then procede normal into Conn.
This way congestion going thru Mott Haven would be cut by at least 1/3. There would be a "need" for the lower level of the 63 St Tunnel. And it would have more of GCT being used.
So why not just put the New Haven Branch over the Hell Gate? Trains would leave Grand Central. Make a right to go thru the 63 St Tunnel.
Not sure that the MN track complex is designed to tie into the LIRR 63rd Street flyunders. Anyone know? It would seem to make sense to design it that way, but then you're back to the problem of incompatible third rail.
When it comes out into Sunnyside Yards it connects to the Amtrak line going to the Hell Gate.
63rd Street is supposed to connect to the LIRR Main Line. Don't think it's currently designed to connect to Hell Gate approach. Would seem to make sense, again. Anyone know?
After it gets to the Bronx it could stop at the old Westchester stops at Casanova, Hunt's Point, Westchester Ave and West Farms. After passing the old turn off for what is now the Dyre line, it could make stops at the old RR stops at Van Nest, Morris Place, Westchester Square and I'm sure there were others. After the line crosses into Westchester County, it would meet up with the current New Haven Branch coming from the Harlem Branch at Wakefield and then procede normal into Conn.
That sounds like a VERY local route. How many stops (new & existing) to get to a major junction point? Sensible to make it an all-New York State route, thereby reducing funding and operational complexity by NOT involving ConnDOT?
This way congestion going thru Mott Haven would be cut by at least 1/3. There would be a "need" for the lower level of the 63 St Tunnel. And it would have more of GCT being used.
Well, the lower level of 63rd Street has its own justification: LIRR to GCT, which is the furthest along in planning, funding and govt/MTA support. Doesn't need MN to justify it.
Also, I *think* that GCT will be at capacity in 2012 (or whenever the LIRR connection opens) and then it'll be a matter of either expanding Penn and/or GCT or just swapping trains between the two. I suspect that's why the LIRR project now includes LIRR-specific new tracks, platforms and customer areas. They're also talking about new platforms at Penn.
First, I'll admit I know little about the types of 3rd rail. All I know is the type I see on the subway. The shoe goes above the rail and below the protection cover. I guess it is called overhanging. As one who doesn't know about it, I'd assume MN and LIRR have the same type. If not, well I've learned something tonight.
As far as the MTA plan for the LIRR going to Grand Central, I figure the LIRR would take the lower level and MN would take the upper. Maybe trains going thru 63 St wil be able to go to either level. If the 2 RR's can run on each other's road, great! If not, so be it. But MTA doesn't have plans for Metro North going over the Hell Gate. It was a question someone posted and I answered it. To me it makes sence because no new tracks would have to be laid. The roadbed is there and so is the track. All MTA would have to do is rebuild some of the abondoned platforms or in some places build new ones. It was just an idea that I had. Not some plan by a state office.
In regards with the route I had in the Bronx, I believe that most of the route is 4 tracks from City Line to just before the bridge. Some of the service could run local. The rest could be express. It would give people in the East Bronx some kind of service going to NYC. MTA might have to pay some kind of fee to Amtrak for use of the Hell Gate. But then it pays a fee anyway for the LIRR to use Penn.
Sometimes I have taken the LIRR home from work. As the train is leaving Sunnyside Yard I have noticed some LIRR trackage has the overhead wires and some of the turnoffs go in the direction of Hell Gate. How much of LIRR's trackage is interwoven with Amtrak? When the Pennny bought the LIRR I thought it was in part so that they could use Sunnyside Yard to store and turn their trains. Why else would that big turning loop be there west of 43 St in Sunnyside?
My perception of GCT and Penn Station is that Penn is at capasity. GC isn't. Penn is owned by Amtrak. GC is owned by MTA. MTA doesn't want to pay a rental fee for the use of tracks at Penn. Or at least pay a bit less by also using GC as a terminal. And MTA would have a terminal in Manhattan in the event that Amtrak goies out a strike. When that happens Penn is closed to LIRR. Trains from Long Island have to terminate at places in Queens and people have to use the already overcrowded subway to get to Manhattan. At least with GC people can get into the city.
some notes.
indeed the ex NYC and NH use Under wiping, and the ex PRR and LIRR use Over wiping (subway style)
The CDOT cars ALSO take AC from catenary, so they could electrically run into ATK Hell Gate Penn, I believe.
As to MTA plans, one part of their alternatives package DOES contemplate CDOT to PENN.
Did some of the FL-9s have a dual functioning 3rd rail pickup shoe?
The kind that could use under or over wipe contact.
Or was that a dream to be developed la dada da. I know the Fl-9s saw service on the MTMN and LIRR, but I'm not sure if they changed their shoes .
avid
I have no authoritative knowledge. My recollection is there was a 'division' of the fleet with some units then 'captive' to the differen lines. HOWEVER, the AC via catenary is I believe the key. Even if as I believe is the case the ex NH and PRR voltages are different, obviously engines (and MU's) can be set up to operate from DC to Boston under the wires. Thus CDot cars shopuld be operable to Penn easily. The next step in my view is the extension of catenary on two routes LI (reinstall to Bay Ridge and extend to Jamaica) and electrify the Empire connection as well as multitrack it. The major clue here is that it should be easier to overcome NIMBY's and be cheaper to add service on ROW already owned.
Back in the late '60s, the Pennsylvania Railroad ran GG-1's to New Haven, and the New Haven used its electrics to Penn Station. I don't recall any diesel service to Penn, however.
If some of the Long Island trains go to Grand Central, I assume that would open some space for Metro North at Penn and vise versa.
That's what they have in mind.
I thought the idea of using Grand Central was to avoid the problems of Routings when Amtrak goes on strike and LIRR trains are not allowed access to Penn.
I thought the idea of using Grand Central was to avoid the problems of Routings when Amtrak goes on strike and LIRR trains are not allowed access to Penn.
Nope. Or at least not primarily. Lots of LIRR riders go to GCT catchment area anyway. If you take them there, you reduce commute times, presumably increase ridership, and most importantly, free up platforms at Penn (now AT capacity) during rush hour to run other services like Metro North into there for the vice-versa reason.
>>The problem with routing trains from the Harlem / New Haven Divisions to the Hudson Division is that they run south to Mott Haven (138th Street), then north to Marble Hill (235th Street), and then south to Penn Station (33rd Street). A lot of extra travel. Also, at Spuyten Duyvil, the train would have to cross the inbound line to get to Penn. <<
Not really a lot of extra travel. The n-bound run from 138th to S. Duyvil, without stops, is less than 10 minutes. Then south on the West Side probably duplicates another 10 minutes of s-bound run time already used before the train got to 138th. This 20 minutes is worth the hassle factor of getting from GCT to Penn Station which requires 2 subways and lots of walking and stairs between trains.
The Planning Study does allude to the possibility of opening new local stations on the E. Bronx stretch of the Amtrak line.
More than the "south-north-south" routing for Harlem Division trains is the necessary switching. First, from the Harlem/New Haven tracks to the Hudson tracks at Mott Haven. This is simple in the AM - the train goes from the local southbound Harlem/New Haven track to the northbound Hudson track without crossing any other tracks. The second switch, at Spuyten Duyvil, requires a change from the northbound train to cross the southbound Hudson track and the northbound Amtrak track.
In the PM, the Spuyten Duyvil switch is easy, northbound Amtrak to southbound Harlem. At Mott Haven, however, the train would have to go from the southbound Hudson to the "northbound" Hudson track, then around the semi-loop, and finally cross from the "local southbound" Harlem / New Haven track to one of the other tracks. (You couln't operate northbound on the "local southbound" track because then southbound trains could not stop at Fordham.
Perhaps an alternative would be to rebuild the Woodlawn junction, so that the Harlem trains could switch to the New Haven, and then down the East Bronx line to Hell Gate.
>>Perhaps an alternative would be to rebuild the Woodlawn junction, so that the Harlem trains could switch to the New Haven, and then down the East Bronx line to Hell Gate. <<
The MTA study consdiered this but eliminated this becase of the expense of the necessary trackwork both where Harlem meets NH, and NH meets Amtrak in New Rochelle.
Putting in track as suggested would take major swaths out of heavily built up neighborhoods in Mount Vernon and New Rochelle respectively. So there's a major political factor as well as money.
It's about time they considered running some Hudson Line trains on the west line line that is presently used by Amtrak. This would be a boon for those who might want to take an NJT train into New Jersey and this would improve connections to Amtrak.
#3 West End Jeff
I was up in Portland Maine this weekend and caught this article in the local paper link to online version.
The much delayed Boston - Portland, ME amtrak service is scheduled to begin on 12/15 with a VIP train to run on 12/14.\
Also, was in Boston Sat nite with friends and rode the green line, tight curves and close headways!
At last! I really hope it's a success.
I hear that...
but I wish something could be done as far as getting to Kennebukport to go to Seashore. It isn't very helpful to us.
I'll be on site for the departure of the inaugural train on 12/14 with
my MBTA photo permit in hand... and will have pix for SubTalk.
From the AP tonight via Newsday. One was struck and killed by an F train at Second Ave. early Sunday and the other by a 6 train at Lockwood Ave. Saturday night. No other details right now.
There is something weird about the womans story. No one noticed (they were not even sure which crew did it) and the train did not go BIE. It may not have even been in the station.
You do not necessarily go right into emergency when you have a 12-9 (man under). If the body goes under the T/O's side of a B div. car, or the opposite side of an A div. car, then the train will keep on going since there is no trip cock on that side of the train.
Well if the 12-9 is between the rails or the train smushes them up.
There are trip cocks on both sides of the train so you can go BIE if they are right under you. It's just the front one that is opposite you in the IND.
So it was the victim's body that tripped up the cock, right?
In one of the incidents thwe train did not go BIE at all.
I have seen people throw coats ad pants in the middle track and once I did take a break because I thought the debris looked humanish or maybe the person was thrown in out cold way and they were hit by the train and not run over by it.
We were talking about these accidents at work today, trying to figure out if the arm of a body could trip....then I remembered something: all NYC subway cars I work on have a new 'snow block' replacement installed during each inspection. This is a hardwood block that fits inside the trip lever and against the valve body. Taped with five turns of friction tape, it allows the trip arm to 'skate through' piles of hardened snow or debris without BIE. R142s HAD a tripcock defect that would BIE unexpectedly but no more. Peter
The preceding train did go into emergency. The T/O found debris behind his train and assumed that it was the debris that caused the BIE. The body was found by the follower. That train did not contact the body.
In the IRT incident, the train went into emergency. The TOD told the train operator that the BIE was caused under the 8th car. She went back and didn't find anything. When she began to move, the train went BIE again. A TSS found the body.
In a 3rd incident, before the other two, a jumper shut down the franklin Shuttle around 5:45 PM. He jumped at the Botanical Gardens station but couldn't get it right. He survived.
Ouch someone lied and is on the bench. At the time they were hunting down crews to figure who did what.
So in both 12-9 instances, the T/O's are in hot water for improperly inspecting the train & roadbed, especially the IRT T/O.
I don't know where the axe of human error will fall but I feel that the IRT incident seems the more egregious one.
Serious indeed. Could the IRT T/O lose her job? Is a trip to the DA possible? Will there be a criminal investigation to determine if the death was caused by the initial fall to the tracks, or caused by the T/O recharging the train, and then riding over the victim while he was still alive?
First, because all of the incidents are currently under investigation, i'd perfer not to comment beyond the information in the reports that I read. To speak in generalities, let's seperate the fact from fancy. First if a train operator hits a person on the tracks, unless the train operator was impaired or negligent, they should not be held criminally libel.
The question is, what if the person was alive after being struck by the train but died when the train struck him again? Is it reasonable to expect that a train operator, walking in a dark tunnel with a 3 volt flashlight, and the pressure of a trainload of people on her shoulders, would be expected to see a body under a train after the train has presumably crushed and compressed that body. For anyone who's ever had to check for a reported 12-9, locating a body is never an easy thing. In a case where the train went into emergency for an unknown cause, the operator is looking for many things including:
Debris
Broken Rail
Derailment
Hanging Car Equipment
Signal trouble
or a body on the tracks.
Therefore, the train operator is not focused on looking for one thing but a whole range of symptoms. Should the train operator be subject sanctions. One could make a good case on either side of the issue. In any 12-9 incident a trip to the grand jury is possible. A trip to labor relations is possible.
We're obviously talking about an R-142 here. I wonder if this case was a suicide or falling victim?
Why do I ask? Because those R-142's can be difficult when walking from one car to the next. You have to use two hands to open both sets of doors, so you never really have your balance. If the train is going fast enough, especially around a curve, I can easily imagine someone losing balance and falling.
cont'd.............
I would not be surprised to see the TA lock those bi-parting doors on the new 142's. It's really awkward when walking between cars.
I wonder if there's still time on the option order of R-142s to go back to the orignial door style. From the thread on the R-143s, the MTA is going with the tried-and-true single leaf door on those, so either someone had a change of heart between the orders for the two different models, or it was decided the double-leaf doors would be OK with 51-foot cars, but not with 60-footers and their wider turning radus.
Next time you're on a 7th ave. express, try walking between cars when the train is operating at 30-35 mph. It's hard, especially if your hands are full. You really have to put some muscle into those doors.
I was coming back from Pelham Bay Park a couple of months ago right at school dismissal time when this REALLY, REALLY LOUD GIRL got on the train and started floating between cars to talk -- make that yell -- at her friend in each car. At that moment, I was kind of hoping the flaw in the R-142s door design would rear its ugly head, though that wouldn't have done me or the train crew much good in the long run...
Be careful. That statement can be taken as racist on this board.
Actually, the 6 trains are a little safer, as you can grab the door handles for some support. And, they open easier. On the 2, you can really grab the handles, you have to pinch/squeeze the handles, and put some serious muscle into it. By next year, I bet the TA will lock those doors so people can't walk between cars.
No, to the best of my knowledge doors will remain unlocked for safety issues relating to emergencies and the warning stickers will remain in place. CI Peter
I believe the R-142's have the biparting doors because of the smaller width. The wider R-143's allow for a single-leaf door.
Hopefully someone can help us out here.
>>> I believe the R-142's have the biparting doors because of the smaller width <<<
Since all the preceding IRT cars were able to handle a single door in that width, I do not think you can ascribe the design to the width. I am sure the theory was to prevent the doors from opening from lateral forces if not latched, but not enough thought was given to the difficulty of opening them when passing between cars. If the engineers who designed them were used to subway systems where only crews pass between cars, they might not have given enough thought to ease of use for the general public. Isn't New York almost unique in allowing passengers to move between cars while the train is moving?
Tom
Here is what I think the TA's goal is. To create a wider space on doors between cars, and on side doors.
They want to offer a wider door for passengers moving between cars. At the same time, a wider door will not fit on the R-142'.
So either you can either,
a) Stick with the current dimensions, and have the current narrow storm doors, OR
b) Install a bi-parting door that will offer a wider space for those transporting between cars.
I guess the city opted for choice B.
>>> Here is what I think the TA's goal is. To create a wider space on doors between cars, and on side doors. <<<
Wider side doors make sense to allow more people to move through them quickly when a train is in the station, but the storm doors are used by one person at a time, so there is no reason for the TA to widen them beyond the width of the biggest passenger. The old doors were wide enough for that. BTW, is the R-142 storm door opening wider than the opening on the older cars?
Tom
>>>BTW, is the R-142 storm door opening wider than the opening on the older cars?<<<
Yes, it is wider. For wheelchair passage (really!).
Peace,
ANDEE
Isn't New York almost unique in allowing passengers to move between cars while the train is moving?
AFAIK, yes.
I think the subway here in Stockholm is more typical. One thing we check before taking a train into service is that the end door at the non-cab end of every car is locked. The cabs are full-width (though the initial orders of cars had half-width cabs and railfan windows).
-- Tim
The question is, what if the person was alive after being struck by the train but died when the train struck him again? Is it reasonable to expect that a train operator, walking in a dark tunnel with a 3 volt flashlight, and the pressure of a trainload of people on her shoulders, would be expected to see a body under a train after the
train has presumably crushed and compressed that body. For anyone who's ever had to check for a reported 12-9, locating a body is never an easy thing.
That's not hard to understand. Consider the number of incidents when pedestrians are run over by hit-and-run drivers, and later are run over by other vehicles while lying in the road. It's obviously a lot easier to see a dead/dying person on a road than under a train, yet these incidents happen.
Got a quick question: Does the TA offer counseling to the train crews involved in tragedies like these?
Everyone in TA is offered counseling for any type of incident that takes place on the job. You can go through the system or get help outside through the union (losing earned time off) but the big point is that a record is kept of EVERYTHING, just like lateness and absence. One must remember that most accidents occur without the train crews participation and no matter how bad you feel, it is always Cover Your ASS Dummy CYAD.
About the 6th Ave. Lines (reffered to be Orange) of B / D / Q , once the Manhattan Bridge is fully reopened, will the regular serivce be reopened? This means that "B" will replace "W"; "D" will replace "Q" (orange) and "Q" (Orange) will replace "Q" Yellow in Brooklyn.
The (Q) will become the (D) once again. The <> will probably stay on Broadway and become the (Q). The (W) will become the (B) again. I would assume that the (B) and (D) are what will run over the bridge from 6th Avenue, and the (Q) and maybe the (N) will run over the bridge from Broadway. These are just assumptions.
When you see <> I meant the Q in a diamond. I forget how to post that here. :)
That seems reasonable. What is an open question is whether one of the Broadway routes will use the 63rd St Connector on a regular basis. Whether or not it does, the Connector provides a way to reroute trains from 6 Av to Broadway, or vice-versa, should there be a problem in a tunnel.
The New York Times had a graphic today showing the bracing work being done. The Manny B's repairs are on schedule so far. The trackbed will be reinforced and the tracks will be replaced as part of the work. Full four-track subway service will resume in 2004.
Wouldn't it be neat if the South Ferry line could be ready to reopen then too?
The South Ferry line's repair cost will be $1 billion, much covered by insurance, the rest by federal rebuilding funds. Time to completion: 3 years. We just might make it!
PATH will reopen in two years.
>Full four-track subway service will resume in 2004.
Hopefully, it will remain in full service longer than the last time, which was about 12 weeks ...
Keep your fingers crossed.
Knowing what I know, I cross my fingers every time i cross the bridge and we clear the water.
I know what you mean.
When I was a kid riding standards or Triplex I always stepped back from the open window, because i was afraid my glasses would fall out into the river
Nothing has been determined as yet, but you can safely assume that the B and D trains will be through-routed to Brooklyn via the A/B tracks. As far as the Broadway service goes, who knows what the fate of the (Q), and W lines will be. Stay tuned.
Mark
That sounds like what the service was before the entire MB reconstruction began. Probably what they will go back to.
This is the most logiical scenerio.
All speculative right now. I would bet, though, that the B and D will be restored as they were before, and that the Q and N will run express on Broadway; the W will be Broadway local from Whitehall to Astoria.
I would hope that the (Q) would remain on Broadway. That is it's proper home, after all. More importantly, the Broadway BMT needs it more than the Sixth Ave IND, which already would have two expresses and two locals.
:-) Andrew
Just from a TPH set-up, running two lines Sixth Ave.-Manny B express and two lines Broadway-Manny B express makes the most sense. Anything else cuts rush hour capacity below 15 tph for the B and D trains.
I don't know if the W will survive the change -- they may just keep the N going to Astoria, the R to Continental and terminate the Q at 57th-7th instead of running the W from Whitehall to Astoria and ending both the N and Q at 57th-7th (the W has no nearby yard under the second plan).
Wasn't the original plan to run the "W"--the to be exact--from Astoria to Whitehall in the first place? (The plan before all the Manhattan Bridge madness)
And Astoria seems to be enjoying all these additional service so cutting the W may bring chaos from the activists there...
With the "future" W just running between Astoria and Whitehall, how many trainsets would you need? Can they just be stored in the layup tracks between Canal and City Hall plus the middle tracks of the Astoria line? Yes, you would need to move the trains out of the way if they need to go to a yard for maintenance.
Well, the TA went for over a decade with the RR between Astoria and 95th St. having no yard, so it's not unprecedented, but I'm not sure there's enough storage capacity between Astoria and Whitehall to lay-up the W trains during off hours.
Nothing's been decided yet.
One suggestion: Don't think of the current plan as temporary and the previous plan as regular service. Both then and now, only half the bridge is available. I hope, once both sides of the bridge are open, that the TA uses both, sending some service to Broadway and some service to 6th Avenue. In particular, the Q is traditionally the Broadway express; it ran on 6th because there wasn't much choice in the matter.
Here are my guesses (based on other posts here). They are only guesses.
B: pre-7/22*
D: pre-7/22
F: post-7/16
M: current
N: Astoria local, Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge, 4th Avenue express (local on weekends), Sea Beach; full local at night
Q: current diamond only
R: current
V: post-7/16
W (weekdays only): Astoria local, Broadway local, to Whitehall
*This includes weekend service via CPW local. An alternate plan would send the weekend B to Queens via 53rd to take the place of the V, which only runs weekdays and which some fear is needed on weekends as well. This would entail switching the B to the local track, either at W4 or at 42nd. Alternatively, the weekend F would run via 53rd and the B would run via 63rd; that would minimize switching but maximize confusion.
This makes sesne. Both Brighton and 4th Ave would have a choice of either Bway or 6th Ave service. Bway would have 2 locals and 2 expresses weekdays. Ah, the good ole days.
I don't remember the good old days quite as well. 4th Ave. only had one local, and Brighton riders had no real choice but to crowd the D, as the other choice was the useless M. During the rush hours, the QB ever ran enough to make a difference.
What was the reason they took the M off the Brighton line to Coney Island, and moved it to West End. Wasn't that because of when they first started the MB reconstruction? Will it stay on the West End when all MB service resumes?
If it ran via Brighton, where would it terminate? Stillwell gets clogged as it is with just the circle-Q.
The M used to run all the way to Stillwell on the Brighton until about 10 to 15 years ago. The orange D ran express & the yellow Q and the M ran local, before the last time the MB was closed to 6th Avenue traffic in the late 80's and early 90's. That is when they took the M off the Brighton line, I believe, when they started work on the 6th Ave tracks on the MB the first time.
But headways overall then were lower than they are now, and I don't know to what extent cars were cleaned at Stillwell.
I don't know to what extent cars were cleaned at Stillwell.
Obviously alot less than they are now! They were pretty bad!
The R46's on the F at this time, as well as the R46's & R32's on the N were regularly cleaned at Stillwell (1985ish). But the QB/Q, M and B cars were never even swept!
I can vouch for that. I used to ride the M everyday around 1985, and they were BAD!
They never were cleaned during this period....LOL.
To answer your question, the M and Q routes during this period were basically one line divided in two. Headways never exceeded 12 TPH, but 6 went to Nassau & 6 went to 57th St. Or something like that.
The only way the D, M & Q could run together through the Flatbush Ave. corridor would be by limiting headways on the D & Q. I'm assuming that once the bridge fully opens, 12 TPH on both the D & Q would be the optimal service. Adding a useless M line would only clog everything up.
Brighton riders do NOT miss or want the M back.
I believe the reason for the M being moved to the West End was due to the sharing of the B, D, and Q of the same track. This increased headways (three trains, B, D, Q, instead of two, B and D, on the same track), and thus decreased the amount of West End service. To take up the slack more proportionately, the M went to the West End. I hope and believe that a Nassau St. rush-hour service will join the D and Q when both sides of the MB re-open. Three services were standard on the Brighton for many years.
The current roll signs have the J running to Coney Island[dimond J]during peak hours=JAMAICA NASSAU ST.BRIGHTON.
I don't think that ever happened in the past?!?!?!
The QJ?
Yes the QJ
It did, for 5 years (1967 to 1972), known as the QJ.
Man, that ust've been one murderous route to be assigned to.
What a long ride! It must have been endless!
With the demise of WTC, I think that running two Nassau St. services through to the southern division (pick J, M and or Z) and one Broadway local (R) is worth scrutinizing. Pre-Chrystie, 4 services ran through Dekalb Track 2 (northbound local) in the morning rush: QT and RR to Broadway, M (Brighton special) and TT (West End local) to Nassau.
I don't think the TT ran during rush hours. West End service was made up of T service via the bridge. I don't think it operated at the same time as the TT.
Actually during rush hours in the BMT Days there was as follows thru DeKalb Brighton Exp(Bridge) Brighton Local(Tunnel) 4th Ave Local(Tunnel) West End $Exp(Bridge) Sea Beach Exp via ByPass(Bridge) Culver Local Tunnel Culver Express via Loop a total of 7 different trains
Chris, you now have it from a direct witness, at least for Sept. 1965 through Nov. 1967. The TT ran during morning rush hours. The trains were R32 Brightliners. Yep, four lines through Dekalb Track 2 during the morning rush.
During rush hours, the TT turned back at 9th Ave. or Bay Parkway. During middays, the T didn't operate and the TT ran all the way to Coney Island.
I remember seeing a TT of R-32s laid up at ENY Yard on July 20, 1967 while waiting for a Manhattan-bound Canarsie train at Broadway Junction. Then I saw the BMT standards for the first time. Made me want to ralph.
Who was Ralph? You don't mean Ralphie of the then last place New York Yankees, do you? BTW, I saw the return (southbound) T with south destination sign 9th Avenue. Apparently, they were taken out of service there. The T, as far as I know, ran only during the rush hours. Morning rush southbound I would see the N running local at Pacific St., with T running express.
The T ran Mon-Fri rush hours and Sat and Sun during the day. The TT ran Mon-Fri rush hours and midday, and as a shuttle to 36 St every night.
4 lines, but how many TPH's? I bet it didn't exceed 36.
I think pre-Chrystie the M ran on the Myrtle line to Broadway (Brooklyn) and then to Chambers St.
Reading down the thread, the TT did run in rush hours, as stated here.
Actually, the Brighton Banker's specials were labeled as "M" when R27's were assigned to the route. Here's one in 1965:
Nice picture Chris. By September, all of the M Brighton trains were R32 Brightliners.
The M was listed as a Nassau St. Express on the "Know Trains at a Glance" placards posted at Southern Division stations in the mid-60s.
The M was listed as a Nassau St. Express
How can they run express on Nassau St? There are no local stations. Unless they mean skipping Bowery like the J does now.
The J has stopped at the Bowery since 1999, along with the Z.
Has it, I didn't realize that. I have only used the M recently and when the M is not running the J stopped there anyway, so I didn't notice. I don't get there much anymore.
Years ago, the F signs said "6th Ave. Express", yet they were never express on 6th Ave., in Queens they were.
Because when those signs were made, IND routes used single letters for an express line and double letters for locals. I saw "FF 6th Ave Local" on those signs but AFAIK it was never run. There wouldn't have been any point prior to the "dash" opening in the 1960s.
That makes sense. I forgot that they used double letters. When they changed to single letters, it would probably confuse less people by saying "F - 6th Ave Express", then saying "FF - 6th Ave local".
That was a throwback to the days when a single letter meant express and a double letter meant local. The M marking was used for Banker's Specials prior to Chrystie St., and these trains did run express in Brooklyn, but obviously not along Nassau St.
I may be wrong but: when the M started going to Met and ceased being the bakers special, it kept a single letter designation because it went express in the peak direction from Marcy to Bway/Myrtle (took the spot of the Myrtle/Chambers rush hour route). Eventually the decision was made to send it local from Marcy to Bway/Myrtle during all hours of operation. Rather than confuse everybody and give it the politically correct (at the time) double letter designation, it was kept as a single M.
that happened in '76 when the K,EE,GG,B,AA A,F,and E services were changed.
Yes, the M did run express in the peak direction along Broadway-Brooklyn after Chrystie St. It was a rush hour-only service initially, then when the MJ was discontinued, the M became a weekday operation. SS was used to denote shuttles in those days, and there were many of them. Maps issued in late 1969 showed both an M, from Metropolitan Ave to Chambers St., and an SS from Metropolitan Ave. to Myrtle Ave, and indicated "operates when M not in service" for the M's SS counterpart.
My 1972 map has an SS route for the M, 5 (Dyre Ave shuttle) as well as the other 3 (Culver, Franklin and Grand Central).
The M was probably listed as an "express" because until 1976, it ran express from Myrtle to Marcy Aves.
Gloria, the M that I was familiar with was out of Coney Island, switched to the express tracks south of Kings Hway., and ran via tunnel to its north terminal, which was Chambers St. The side curtain signs on the Brightliners had: "M/Nassau St Exp"
Didn't they deadhead over the Manhattan Bridge when running against traffic flow?
I wouldn't be surprised if they did and if their mid-day lay-up was 9th Av.
You mean the way service was between September 17th and October 28th, except with one Broadway local service? Hmmmm, sounds like an interesting proposal. What would some of the advantages be to this?
Actually, I have two Broadway local services in mind, the R and the W, which would run from Astoria to Whitehall rush mid-days and evenings to 9 PM. There would be several advantages to making the Nassau St. lines through services. For one, I believe that best efficiency through the Dekalb bottleneck could be provided by 24 tph on each track (tracks 2, 4, and bypass), and with the destruction of the WTC, there would be proportionately more demand for the eastern side of the downtown business district.
So I take it, with the W running local to Whitehall, the N would take its place on the Manhattan Bridge and run express in Manhattan again, right? Would the M replace the W and run full-time on the West End line? Where would the J go if it were extended onto the BMT South?
I would have the M go as rush hours Brighton local. J via West End from Bay Parkway to Jamaica Center, short-turning after rush service at Broadway Junction (northbound) and 9th Av. (southbound).
The J has a Brighton designation.It's on all the R32/38 cars.The M is West End now for the forseable future..... I would have the J running to Brighton Beach express[ between KINGS HWY and PROSPECT PARK ]rush hours if only to speed up the long running times,and express on Brosdway Brooklyn rush, midday and evenings.Iwould also keep the skip stop,and extend the hours like like a ''real rush hour service''.1HOUR IS NOT ENOUGH!!!!!!!
I also hope that M returns to Brighton when the Bridge fully opens. If it can't return to Brighton then at the very least run it local to Bay Pkwy on the West End and have the B run express on the West End Line to Coney Island.
I wonder if that has ever been done in regular service? I could never figure out why it wasn't, certainly in my lifetime. It's a route comparable to the Culver in spacing of the express stops, with a good place to terminate the local prior to going to two tracks.
It really wasn't 3 services. It was really two, with a few of the M's being sent up Broadway via the H tracks on the bridge as Q's (QB's). Full D/M/Q service through the Flatbush Ave. corridor would limit headways on all the lines.
No more than three services on the bridge already limit headways.
The greater concern, IMO, is how to turn two services at the same platform at Stillwell. The N was cut back to 86th because it can't share a platform with the W, even on weekends.
Can you imagine the nightmare north of Atlantic Ave where the D, M & Q would have to merge/split?
No, actually, I can't. The D/Q goes one way; the M goes the other. No different in principle from today's Q/Q/W split (southbound into DeKalb): the Q/Q goes one way; the W goes the other.
But there is only a short section of track which the M occupies by itself before merging with the R. I don't think more than 1 or 2 could occupy that section of track. Which means it would back up other trains. Once the W splits off the Q/Q, it runs on it's own track for a fairly long stretch thru Dekalb to just north of Pacific.
True.
How about today's split between 34 and 42 BMT? The W switches away from the Q/Q directly into the N/R northbound (vice versa, southbound). That does cause backups, but at least it's manageable.
I think what happens is that by the time before (W) reaches Times Square (Queens Bound), it switches to the local tracks and the (Q) or will remain in the express tracks. For the (Q) or , once it reaches 57th Street, the terminating (Q) or trains drop off passengers at the Queens Bound platform and goes well into the tunnel north of 57th Street station, with the whole train passing the crossover. This is more convenient for passengers, because of the station layout (Where all except for the "Q" trains use the outer tracks). With the Brooklyn Bound "Q" trains using the Southbound platform to pick up passengers, it would be much more convienient than placing an indicator for the platforms that are being used by the "Q" trains.
This is assuming that the 57th Street platforms for the "Q" is a wall based platform (Tracks between the 2 platforms).
You are correct regarding the express-to-local switch south of 42nd, but the Q does not relay at 57th. It simply pulls into one of the express tracks, dumps, and eventually pulls out southbound.
No, it's a typical express platform. Both Q's use the inner express tracks to terminate, crossing over SOUTH of the station. Circle Q's terminate on the southbound platform, diamonds on the northbound (Queens). This did lead to several problems with people getting on southbound Q's expecting to go to Queens when the reroutes first began.
Why don't both Q's simply pull into the northbound track, relay north of 57th, then go back into service on the downtown side, like the C does at 168th St? That would seem to eliminate any logjam of trains in service south of the 57th St. switch which always occurs (especially during rush hours, while simplifying service.
That does seem to run fairly smoothly, especially going downtown. I guess scheduling has a lot to do with it.
David, I read on this site some time ago that that possible problem at Stillwell is being addressed. There is a 9th track being constructed from the Coney Island yard to the Brighton, bypassing Stillwell, addressing the put-in take-out problem. IIRC, this 9th track was said to be related to the Queens Boulevard connector (Q service to 179th?), but your guess is as good as mine if this turns out to be the case.
But how does that assist in turning trains? As it stands, the circle-Q uses both tracks at its platform. There's no room for the M in addition.
The only solution I can think of -- and it might work -- is to clean D trains (assuming the D returns to Brighton local service) in the Bronx and M trains in Queens. Then the two tracks should suffice for two services -- witness the Q/Q at 57th, the N/W at Ditmars, the 2/5 at Flatbush, the B/D at 34th, etc.
Quite a nice suggestion!
I believe this track is being installed to allow Q trains to get from the CI yard to Brighton Beach without interfering with N service, as it has done in the past. Incoming N's had to use only one track as Q after Q used the outermost track to access the Brighton line.
Today, the inner N track has now been connected to the Brighton line, and the outer severed.
"It wasn't three services, it was two" Chris, you're getting into semantics here. The QB ran 5 tph, and then there was the D and the M. Pre-Chrystie, there were also three services, the least frequent of them being the M (express Kings Hway to Prospect Park). Track 2 at Dekalb served FOUR lines! Also, the N, Q, and T merged north of Dekalb all the way to Times Square, for over 40 years. And we have now 2 Qs and the W over the same stretch. In my estimation, the denominator is not how many services you run, but how many trains per hour are run over the same stretch of track. Sure, switching takes a toll, too, but much is in the timing and scheduling.
I agree, but do you see them running 12 Q's, 12 D's, and 8 M's thru Atlantic Ave? Currently, the Prospect Park to Atlantic Ave. section runs 20 TPH during the rush, and things somethimes slow to a crawl. I can't see them running more than 24 TPH when both sides of the bridge are operable.
Let's hope that you guys are right about the changes in 2004. The B should get the R-46's if they go to Queens as well as the F and V. Note, within a few years, the R-160's should come in taking away the slants that are on the and the N. The Q will probably keep the the R-68's as well as the D and B giving the N and W the R-42's and R-32's on the shorter runs. The R will have the 32/46 combo as it is now. I can't wait for these changes.
I doubt the B will ever go to Queens, it has always been a 6th Ave-CPW Local
That's true, I forgot about that with the B. Guess the Q might see some of that then from the Broadway Line via 63rd St. to Queens. Guess we will be kept posted.
Oh no, it's starting already. Anyone else wanna give the "nothing's decided yet because it's way in the future" speech?
I would like to see the D once again as the express to Brighton Beach.
Wayne
I just passed my two written exams so I'm now well on my way to becoming the first African-American conductor/motorman in the thirty plus year history of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. Is that wild or what?!
Eric D. Smith
Good for you!
Long overdue, buddy! But here you are the trailblazer. Strong work!
Fantabulous! Congrats, guy!
Eric -
Glad to hear that you are on your way to motorman status - I know it takes a significant time commitment to do that, which is one reason I haven't gotten trained at either of the museums of which I am a member (Branford and National Capital). But it bothers me a bit that you are making so much of your ethnicity - in my view, that's irrelevant. It takes the same amount of effort and commitment to achieve that status no matter if you are white, black, or green with purple polkadots. The achievement stands by itself - qualifying it, as you have, doesn't make it any more significant, since a person's ethnicity has no bearing on their ability to accomplish that goal.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Congradulations.I'm rooting for you.
Will there be a party? :-)
-Dave
I've celebrated with friends but that's about it.
Eric D. Smith
I hope the benefits are good! The pension pays well!
It's all volunteer.
Eric D. Smith
Good for you! Congratulations!
Congratulations. Have you driven a streetcar before or is this going to be your first crack at it?
-Robert King
This will be my first time.
Eric D. Smith
That's great, the first time you operate a streetcar is a big thrill.
-Robert King
I think it wonderful....but sad that it took so many years for the event to take place....into the 21st Century at that. Good luck and God Bless: PLEASE do be careful. Peter
When would be a good time of day to photograph trains running over Hell Gate? I waited there once for almost two hours and nother came by. I mean Hell Gate on the Queens end. I got off the N at the last stop, Astoria, and took a bus to the West shore of Queens and waited there.
There are eight Acela Express trips per day in each direction, as well as a number of "regular" Acela Regional electrics. Just get an Amtrak timetable, and figure about 10 from Penn Station.
I recommend that you go there between 10 AM and 1 PM to take pictures at the Queens end of Hell Gate Bridge. On weekdays, Acela Express Train #2154 arrives around 10:15 AM, #2155 arrives around 10:30 AM, #2157 arrives around 11:30 AM, and #2159 arrives around 12:30 AM.
On weekends, Acela Express #2251 arrives around 11:30 AM, and #2250 arrived around 12:15 PM. For other Amtrak trains, please look up the Northeast schedules for details.
Chaohwa
If you were there on Sunday 12/02/01, Amtrak had a major power problems in Boston. They had delays up to 3 hrs and some cancellations including Acela Express. That is why you may have not seen any trains.
mornings, weekdays. anywhere from 7:30 to 12... acela, csx, and if your lucky, a p&w stone train. there's at least one amtrak per hour in general.
About the "F" line, is there a possibility for an extension for that line beyond its Queens Terminus "Jamaica 179 St."?
There has been talk of that for years.
The original F line terminated at 169 Street. The line was extended to 179 St. The tail tracks reach 182 St.
A mile-long extension would be handy. Long enough to do a lot of good in areas where people need subway service; not long enough to raise a lot of NIMBY. The area could use another couple of stations, and they would serve to reduce the bus ride for passengers on Long Island Bus who are headed for the subway.
Such an extension would increase demands on rolling stock, though, so the MTA would have to increase ordersfor new R-160's.
The line was supposed to go well past 179 St. I think there is a spot along Hillside (200's?) where the road is very wide and supposely there is a station underneith. It wasn't connected with the rest of the line.
The popular cult story puts that phantom at about 212St Look for air grates in sidewalk. Or was it Frances Lewis Blvd.?
Anybody in the mythology Department care to throw some fuel on the fire?
avid
Hillside Av. widens at Springfield Blvd/Braddock Av. (My aunt and uncle have lived there since 1951!) The center area was once used for parking. In any case, I've heard that that was intended to be the end of the line. I never heard that a station was actually built. Springfield Blvd. is at about 220th St.
Bob Sklar
If anything was built there it was probably just the shell of the station.
I'll have to write to the TA and ask about that...
The line ends at 184th Place.
David
Thanks...
When the line was built, it was planned to go further than that. But as it turned out it only went to 184 Place. Maybe it will be extended in the future.
I know. Wishful thinking!
Well, I'm all for it, as far as it could go. I'd say go at least to Francis Lewis Boulevard, and give a further extension to Springfield Boulevard serious consideration. Heck, if they could go all the way to the Nassau line it would be fine by me.
:-) Andrew
All the way to Belmont Raceway. This is my final offer, otherwise we will be crossing into the burbs.Then a whole new can of worms will be opened.
avid
I don't know if Belmont Racetrack is a a natural terminal for the Hillside line. Maybe if there an extension of the (J).
:-) Andrew
During mid day and evenings, especially during overnight hours, I know that shorter trains are a necessity for the city to reduce financial burden, but does this always lead to inconvenience to the passengers?
During mid day and evenings, especially during overnight hours, I know that shorter trains are a necessity for the city to reduce financial burden, but does this always lead to inconvenience to the passengers?
Running shorter trains is not a realistic alternative any more, thanks to link bar mentality. Only two train lengths are now possible: full length and half length. Half length is not adequate on most lines during off peak hours.
what if you took every off peak train, split it in two and ran each with only one crew member? operation would be feasible and headways cut in half. only problem being resistance MTA gets on the grounds of passenger safety. course, i think thats silly cause in one person train operation you still cant be further away from the train operator than you would be from the conductor if you rode the back car of a full length train. besides, cuttign late night headways from 20 to 10 minutes would probably just make the system safer because passengers wouldnt have to wait nearly as long on an isolated platform.
what if you took every off peak train, split it in two and ran each with only one crew member? operation would be feasible and headways cut in half.
I thought your object in running shorter trains was to save money. Running two half length OPTO trains twice as often is more expensive than running a single train at regular intervals due to the increased pay for OPTO operators and the pay difference between T/O's and C/R's.
There are also practicality problems. Midday headways are generally less than twice that of peak headways. This would mean 30 tph for most trunk lines. The increased dwell time due to OPTO would make maintaining schedules difficult.
cuttign late night headways from 20 to 10 minutes would probably just make the system safer because passengers wouldnt have to wait nearly as long on an isolated platform.
I'm pretty sure that the 20 minute figure was chosen to permit single track operation on segments of 2-track lines for maintenance. The switches being placed around 10 minutes of operating time apart.
I can't think of any line where mid-day trains are cut. As for over-night service, it's sometimes necessary. Take for example, the G line. By cutting R trains and running 4-car units in G service over night, it permits the entire G line fleet to be layed up at night for cleaning & maintenance. Something that would not be possible otherwise.
Back in 1970/71, they USED to cut 8 car B trains at 168th into 4 car AA trains. One of the reasons why I didn't want that tour myself was the perpetual cut/add cycle in and out of rush hours, and it was done at the platform with supervisors out the wazoo there to critique your methods. :)
Can someone please tell me where the Fulton St EL used to terminate?At park row or at montague st..? I've looked at old maps but I cant figure it out.
Originally it terminated at Fulton Ferry. After 1898 through
trains were operated across the BB to Park Row.
Can someone please tell me where the Fulton St EL used to terminate?At park row or at montague st..? I've looked at old maps but I cant figure it out.
Park Row, Sands St and Fulton Ferry
And later on at Rockaway Avenue, after this route was shortened due to the opening of the IND Fulton Street Line.
There was also a station on the Fulton Ferry line called Driggs Avenue. It was Marcy Avenue-Driggs Avenue-Fulton Ferry.
I read somewhere that Fulton Ferry was still standing as late as 1940. I don't know if it was still used by that time.
I think we have the Fulton line and the Broadway line mixed up here, or was there also a Marcy ave on the Fulton line.
I think that the confusion here is due to the fact that the old BMT maps from the 1920s and 1930s neglected to put a station name on the Fulton Ferry terminal.
-- Ed Sachs
I think by the 1920's and 1930's Fulton Ferry Station was no longer in servce.
This weekend has to be the worst in 4th ave access to Manhattan. First of all the N has split service replacing the W, Do you think they increase the headways during Holiday Knowing everyone and there mother is shopping,OFCOURSE NOT 11 MIN waits .I am at 18th ave were the Platform was full of angry passengers,all of them yelling at me (I was in uniform).Then we get to 59 st guess what Train goes OOS (Out Of service).All us Italian and spanish people get the short end of the stick on 4th ave. On weeknights no more W's after 10 pm Then on weekends then N and R are the only trains Neither of witch go express.Forgive me but it is fustraiting To travel on 4 th ave.I Guarentee if the neighborhood was like Boropark or the westside of Manhattan this would Not happen.
I think Fred's blood pressure just went off the chart.
In case you were unaware, the TA lists service advisories on its web site. Look before you travel or you may find yourself surprised. At the very least, read the notices at your station.
Your facts are wrong. This weekend there was express service -- all southbound trains, N and R, ran express from Pacific to 36th. Access to Manhattan was unchanged (the W never runs to Manhattan on weekends).
I don't know why your train went out of service. Presumably there was something wrong with it. What did you expect the TA to do, teleport another train into the station to pick you up?
I'm trying to figure out how the TA manages to give "Italian and spanish [sic] people" the short end of the stick while providing better service to others on the same line.
You bring up Boro Park. The West End line through Boro Park this weekend had only southbound service. Northbound passengers had to backtrack via the Sea Beach at 62nd or Stillwell. I suppose you're right -- Boro Park didn't have "only" two local services and no express service; it had half of one local service.
You bring up "the westside of Manhattan." I assume you mean the Upper West Side (the West Side is over half of the borough). Most weekends this year, the UWS has had no local service in one direction either between 42 and 72 or between 72 and 96 (and sometimes both). This weekend, for a change, all service was local (except southbound from 96 to 72). And, incidentally, I had to stand yesterday morning. When was the last time you had to stand on a 4th Avenue train on a Sunday morning? Or late on a Saturday night? In this incident that you're complaining about, did you have to stand in the end? I've never had to stand on a Brooklyn BMT train on weekends or middays. That indicates to me that your line gets more weekend and midday service than it needs.
Even worse than that, Sunday afternoon around 4:00 we were preparing to get a (hopefully Slant) 'N' from the Canal/bridge platform over the Manny B, down the 4th Avenue express and out the West End el. I had parked earlier near 86th and Stillwell (by the only Roy Rogers I know to be left outside of Manhattan) for just that purpose. Usually I park nearby in Queens before an afternoon expedition, but figured with the early sunset it was easier to drive to Bensonhurst and work everything backwards.
Everything went fine for the balance of the afternoon, except that every 'N' we saw passing by while at Roy's, and riding the inbound 'N' along its normal Sea Beach routing seemed to be an R-32. Funny, but since July 22, we hardly had to wait for a second train before a Slant would come, especially on weekends.
We came down the stairs from the downtown '6' platform to see an R-32 with its doors open and a lot of people standing around confused. This wasn't surprising; I figured a lot of passengers were confused by presumed announcements that the next stop would be Pacific Street. A lot of people were asking if this was going "downtown" and looked utterly flabbergasted when I told them the next stop was in Brooklyn- routine weekend GO stuff.
We sat with the doors open for five minutes, and noticed a lot of people were walking towards the front of the platform. An extremely garbled announcement mentioning something vaguely phonetically resembling "fire" came over the PA.
I asked the conductor if we had heard right. He advised us that yes, there was a fire on the bridge. not wishing to risk a long, frustrating wait, we immediately went back to the downtown '6' platform to find a different way back to Brooklyn.
Things were confusing enough for the average non-railfan commuter with two services being rerouted over the bridge, skipping six stops in downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn. When the diversion route goes out of service, that really rubs salt in the wound. Very few other people went up to the '6'. It's nice to be a railfan and know alternatives.
We got the '6' to Brooklyn Bridge, the '4' to Borough Hall, went outside, walked to Jay Street, got the 'F' to Avenue U (gourgeous sunset on the Smith-9th viaduct), and the B3 back to Stillwell. When we got there, a Coney-bound R-68 could be seen curving from 86th onto Stillwell. Apparently, service was back to normal at that point. There was no mention of a fire on the bridge on the radio, today's paper or on this board.
It's a big problem when so many stretches of lines are out of service and a mishap occurs on the alternative.
So, Union Square, if you think YOU were frustrated that morning trying to get from Brooklyn to Manhattan, being at Canal yesterday afternoon was much worse. And you're right; sometimes I think there SHOULD be a moratorium on GOs between Thanksgiving and New Years'. A lot of people trying to get the 'A' train to JFK/Howard Beach in order to get out of town the Sunday after Thanksgiving would agree.
'A' service towards JFK and rockaway blows. they oughta send them all to far rock and make that lefferts line into a shuttle between lefferts & where the 2 lines meet...
Actually, I was making a veiled reference to the never-ending weekend GO that shuts down the Jamaica Bay trestle, hence resulting in anyone needing to get to JFK or the Rockaways to get off the Lefferts-bound 'A' at Rockaway Boulevard, go downstairs, and crowd onto a shuttle bus while making sure they're getting on the right one, since there are two different ones: to Beach 98th station and resumption of train service; or to JFK/Howard Beach station and PA shuttle bus service to the terminals.
It seems very poor judgment to suspend service and force people onto shuttle buses- at least to HB/JFK during a holiday weekend when many out-of-towners unfamiliar with subway system, let alone GOs, are trying to catch flights. It can't be much fun carrying luggage down to the street, onto a bus, off a bus, up and down another staircase and onto another bus. (True, when the trains are running normally to HB/JFK, you still have to do the up-'n-over to the bus.)
It doesn't help that most Queens-bound 'A' platforms from 59th on down don't have advisory signs (well, they could've been torn off the pillars), and that a lot of conductors on Lefferts trains don't announce the necessity of getting on because the Rockaway trains aren't running. Oftentimes, the only time the shuttle bus is mentioned is at Rockaway Boulevard, where you actually get it.
I've rescued quite a few people waiting in frustration while Lefferts after Lefferts train goes by but no Far Rocks, especially at 42nd, 34th, West 4th and Broadway-Nassau. They're none too pleased to find out they've been waiting a long time for nothing, and that they're going to have to change to that damn shuttle bus AGAIN!
Similarly, a bunch of Red Cross workers were trying to subway back to Midtown from Belle Harbor and initially didn't know they'd have to get off at Beach 98th for the bus. At least announcements were good at that end.
Is this eternal GO because of Airtrain? I'm willing to bet when Airtrain opens, that GO will go bye bye for good. Perhaps the TA wants the line in good long term shape so they don't have to suspend it once Airtrain is up and running.
No, the GO is due to track replacement work from north of Aqueduct Racetrack to Howard Beach.
Also building a 3rd track from Broad Channel to just before the North Channel Bridge. Not to mention building a passenger connection from AirTrain to the subway station at Howard Beach.
The 3rd track is already in place. I'm sure that there is some AirTrain activity during the G.O.
The third track's been in place for a while, and has been used for testing and such since Spring.
And I thought the G.O. was for South Channel Bridge repair...
They're probably doing two things at once with that G.O., I'll find out in a couple days when I go back to work.
Wouldn't it be nice if the TA and the Port Authority could find some way to pool their resources and merge the two shuttle buses when this GO is in effect?
time the shuttle bus and the loooong trin over the bay and then wait for the shuttle train. The Bus is faster, I am a very frequent visitor to the rockaways (several times a week) and I actually prefer the shuttle bus timewise.
There was a car fire around 3:30pm closer to 4pm on the Manhattan Bridge. It was a real blazer from the looks of it from the FDR from reports of my family that were driving at that time.
Hey guys, do you think these problems will fixed by next summer and fall? I hate the idea of having to take a cab to get around. Too damn expensive.
How come shuttle busses stop in boro park run free to Willamsburg?I have seen this only on weekends any info would be Helpful.
There is BusTalk for this kind of question! The company who operates this service is Private Trails. A phone call to them can easily answer the question.
True this is a Bus-Talk question. The company in question is called Private TRANSPORTATION, not Trails. They're in the phone book, IIRC their garage is on 3rd Av & 16th St Brooklyn. The company is owned by Othodox Jews and the B-110 Route does not operate from sundown on Friday until Sunday.
My bad! Private Trails, I think, may be a subsidiary company.
To Karl and anyone else who wanted to know, the 2 add-on cars for the MTH 'E' train were numbered 4600-4601.
Thank You!
I have recorded them this time.
It's a shame that 4904/4905 were sold as a add-on set.
Why?
It just seems to me that the correct cars should be in their own boxes. Some guy may buy the add-on set with 4904/4905, get it home, and find he has the same numbers in his four car set.
Today, Monday December 3rd 2001 the R-143s are to enter service on the BMT 14th Street Canarsie Line ("L" train). Anyone who happens to see them please tell me what they are like and how well they run.
#3 West End Jeff
I don't think it was in service today. I spent 3:30 to 5:00 today looking for it. It never came.
If it was in service, the first trip was supposed to be the 05:59 out of Rockaway Park.
The R-143 did NOT run today as many may know, I did a little more research. The R-143 WILL run tomorrow on the 5:59am schedule out of Canarsie and the 6:44am Schedule out of 8th Avenue (For those that don't wanna travel out to Canarsie 1st).
This information is as per Dispatcher, TSS, and several other personnel at Canarsie. Expect the TA Big Wigs to be on the train tomorrow along with the Kawasaki personnel and possibly the media.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Thanks for the information on the R-143s.
#3 West End Jeff
5:59 am? Good. Ya'll will have to wake up at 4 am like I do every day. Remember to bring toothpicks to keep your eyes open. Heh.
I hate waking up at 4AM. That why I went PM's but now I go to sleep at 5AM
Then whatever you do, don't go midnights! I spent 7 months taking what amounted to two long naps instead of one good sleep.
I don't think Midnights would work for me.
I'll work midnights when the Expos win the world series.
Well I hope so! I'll try again tomorrow to catch the R143. Hope it happens.
> The R-143 did NOT run today
Why not?
- Lyle Goldman
Here's the proposed L line schedule for the R-143:
Daily
LV CNR 0559 ARR 14/8 0636 LV 0644 ARR CNR 0721
LV/CR 0728 AR 14/8 0808 LV 14/8 0813 ARR CNR 0851
LV CNR/0901 LV 14/8
1032 0946
1208 1120
1344 1256
1517 1440
1652 1604
1823 1735
1955 1910
2040-ARR C2117 L
Going by how I read it the list of numbers go (and correct me if i'm wrong)
9:46 L 14/8 10:32 A Canarsie
11:20 L Canarsie 12:08 A 14/8
etc... Am I right?
No! After 10:32 the TEMPORAL DISTORTION SYSTEM kicks in, heypaul and his his acolytes seize control and travel back in time.
avid
No! After 10:32 the TEMPORAL DISTORTION SYSTEM kicks in, heypaul and his his acolytes seize control and travel back in time.
Well if we're going to initiate a subway-related space-time distortion, please save a spot for me on a the Fulton El running through Atlantic Ave, leave room for me up front on a BMT Standard or maybe an R1/9 on the Culver shuttle!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
And leave me a space on a Triplex!
Sure, maybe on paper. I am sure every once in a while, the train across the platform will go in an out and the R143 will drop back. Why? Because there will be support people riding besides the crew. Reps from Kawasaki, TA TSS, CED RCI, etc. After all, once in a while wouldn't they have to get off the train to pee? Remember: the R143 is a machine, the working man is not.
If I can hold it as long as it takes to go between 8 Av and Canarsie several times, they can.
Right? Good machines take the work of skilled HUMANS to assemble and test. I wish this project well...that they have the BEST RCIs on board to make it go (if it stops.) TA needs new trainsets...passengers need a better and more reliable ride...Kawasaki needs to get its act together...and I want 'new tech' work. In my prayers...Peter
unlike you scavenger hunters of the R-143, i woke up at 8 o'clock in the morning and left my house at 8:30. i went to 6. ave on the L and waited to experience the new machine. of course it pulled in to 6 ave. and went straight through with the sine lit up in orange "NOT IN SERVICE". I got the R40 behind it and took it over to 8 ave. it stood there on the westbound track. MTA personnel and wasaki(kawasaki) personnel was at the station. they took a digital pic in front of it and it then went into the middle track in the tunnel between 6 and 8 ave. and stood there. of course i didn't have time for it to see if it would come out and go into passenger service so i left. had priorities to take care of. i will just assume for now that it was out for show and not for its test because i didn't have time to wait.
my verdict of the machine is that i liked the new electonic signs and the electronic ads it carries inside them. but it isn't suprising to look at. it sounds like an R-142A and looks like a stretched out R-142A on an R-68A body minus 14'4". same thing for the interior. i don't like the design of the carbody and wished it was designed like an R-32 without the ridges. i will not say more because i didn't ride it and get a full examination and evaluation for myself to give a true opinion. but, i do feel that i will dearly miss the R-40 series over the R-143
I saw it too, possibly at the same time and place you did. (Well, it was more like 9:30.) And I was also astonished to see that the signage at that station now carries the (V) instead of the (S), almost 2 weeks early.
:-) Andrew
me too. the V sign is because in two weeks it will be running. they did the same thing with the signs for the W service. about, the R-143, maybe i will go back down there to take pics if it is in service. if not, then i will do it tomorrow. the only thing that would stop me from trying to ride the 143 is that the Canarsie line is boring to ride in the first place.
Above ground is nice, I've done the L from Bway Junction to 14/8, but all the stations below ground are so repetitive...But hey, I think the R143 might change my mind!
Are the V's found over at 6th Avenue? I saw them at 7th Avenue (at the street entrances and over the turnstiles) this evening.
While reviewing an old subway map, I again mused over the failed "K" line.
Why did this line fail? I could certainly use a line going from the Lower East Side to 6th Avenue without changing trains. It would come in handy for shoppers - it would connect the Lower East Side bargains and Macy's in midtown.
The TA said low ridership. Passengers were prevoiusly in the habit of taking the F to Essex/Delancey and changing to the J (or whatever it was called at the time). The ratio of F vs. K service on Sixth Ave. was something like 2 or 3 to 1. So it was just as easy to take to F and change for the J or M.
It was not only the small number of trains on the KK, it was also that folks really didn't like the R1/9's (geese always whining about them being noisy and "smelly") ... it wasn't something you'd WAIT for. Then there was the silly skip-stopping on the Jamaica El which had the KK stopping at places where there weren't that many boarding. It was doomed from the git-go and that expensive connection that was built for the KK was quickly abandoned ... and DAMN expensive to build.
you are right,''kirk''. I am one of those that remember the KK/K LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY... The R1/9 made up over half the Eastern div. fleet at the time and the KK/K WAS ALL R1/9.
Every once in a while there would be an R-40M/R-42 KK train out of the East New York yard that would pop its head up on Sixth Ave., sometimes running behind or in front of an R-6 of F trains, which was always a surprise. But mostly they were the R-7/9s, in the latter years with the MTA corporate colors and the phlegm green interiors. Not really appealing to the masses, if they have a choice between that and a Slant 40 F to Essex (though the one I really would have loved to have seen was the KK train of BMT Standards running on the Sixth Ave. line in 1968. Talk about a fish out of water, especially at 57th and 6th...).
BMT standards running on IND lines was not that unheard of. They probably saw lots of service on the Queens Blvd. local after the 60th St. connection was opened in 1955.
I thought 60th Street only fed the Astoria side of QBP?
But not on the Sixth Ave. mainline in regular revenue service, barring a problem in the 60th St. tunnel that would have forced a reroute along 53rd St., Sixth and the Culver line to CI. And especially not at 57th St. and Sixth Ave., which would have been a brand new station in 1968 with an about-to-be-retired class of cars (exactly the opposite situation I metioned to Trevor yesterday about the R-143 and the Manhattan-bound Atlantic Ave. station on the Canarsie line).
The standards ran on the Queens Blvd line and with Brighton Local Markings Mon-Fri
I knew that, what I was saying is if there was some problem getting Queens Blvd. trains through the 60th St. tunnel back in the late 50s or early 60s, they could have run the Standards through 53rd St., down Sixth Ave. and then down the Culver line to CI, where they could then return to Brighton service. I don't know if it ever happened, but the routing was possible.
But as far as regular revenue serivce operation on Sixth Ave., and definitely revenue service to 57th and Sixth, only the few Standards on the KK in 1968 would have fit the bill.
Many KK's terminated at Eastern Parkway; however, in the PM Rush,some were signed Rockaway Parkway.
"BMT standards running on IND lines was not that unheard of"
The 2800 series BMT Standards had roll signs for the (GG), though there are not reports they ever ran there.
Also, a reliable source told me there a train of BMT Standards ran on the (KK).
Bill "Newkirk"
Wayne says he saw such a train once. It was signed up as a Broadway-Brooklyn Local. It would have made sense, since the standards were stilll very much around in 1968.
Guys,I have always said the Eastern div.got the short end of the stick for years.The KK/K could have worked if it was operated as conceive,168th st WASHINGTON HTS to 168th st Jamaica.The KK/K should have been the primary[if not one of the]services out of Broadway Bklyn,with peak direction express service along the Jamaica line and better rolling stock other than the R1/9 cars.The R 27/30 were there by then,so those cars should have been used[1968]. The B should have stayed on Broadway as the T,with the D,F and KK RUNNING 6TH AVE. The KK would have gone to 57th street middays late evenings,and some short turns during rush. could have been done,if theh TA wanted the line to suceed.
They obviously didn't want it to suceed. They made it so inconvienient that they could justify not doing it anymore. It really should be given a second chance.
It was pretty straightfoward when it ran in the 70's. People still ignored it, as they would today.
They were and still are my favorite car in the system that was OPERATING when I was ... if the older BMT cars were still plying the rails, I'm sure I would have managed a stiffer for those instead but they were gone. I missed the chance for a Q car pick by just over a year (MJ line) ... but the geese HATED the R1/9's ("old wrecks" was what they were known as) but for me, a whiff of phenol and genuine TA "blue smoke" was like a good pipeload of Boerkum Riff in a Meerschaum. I *loved* the "old wrecks" ...
I'm sure they didn't help attendance though ... made people on that line stop whining about the 27/30's when the alternative was IND steel. :)
Was the KK a part-time (rush hours only) service like the EE or did it run all day?
I think it may have been part time service, another reason it was doomed.
The KK was a rush hour-only service. I saw one such train along 6th Ave. in 1968.
The KK ran rush hours only. That's one reason why it didn't last.
Exactly my point. People are creature of habit. If they're regular riders of the QJ during the mid-day hours they may not even be aware that the KK and a one seat ride to 6th Avenue existed.
Exactly. It just seems they have no desire to even try it again. If they did it would have to be an all day train, not just rush hours. They could stop it on nights and weekends though.
Now, operation is all but impossible. What would be the "new" KK's northern terminal? The connection from Essex only routes into the local tracks near B'way Lafayette. Therefore, the line would have to go to Queens via 53rd. or 63rd. Sts. With the 8 car limitations eastern division BMT lines must deal with, this is practically impossible. Any routing up Central Park West would require a traffic snarling switch somewhere on 6th Ave.
Let the new V train run on this route!!
Yes, run it to Canarsie once work on the Atlantic Avenue station complex and flyover is complete.
wayne
Why? L ridership is predominently EAST of Broadway Junction. Why limit their service by allocating capacity to a line that diverts to Broadway, which is adequatley serviced by the J & Z? If Canarsie riders need more service, then add extra L service.
Besides it being really really cool to ride on again, no one can come up with a legitimate reason to revive this route. I know it seems wasteful to not use this part of the Chrystie St. connector when it cost millions of $$$$ to build. It should never have been built.
But the fact remains, IT WAS BUILT, so why not use it?
Because it isn't needed and it's use creates more problems than it solves.
The line wasnt used ''as conceived''.this was suppose to be a connection to the second ave line,along with the Manhattan Bridge section,insted it was diverted to the Houston street line,thus killing off its sole purpose.As I've said before,the KK/K route could have worked,if the TA used it as an express along Broadway/Jamaica avenue to 168th street's.[and some modern rail cars,not rolling rust buckets]Today,we suffer from the same short sightedness of the past,480ft platforms,lack of a true express,silly skipstop service,and no direct service to upper Manhattan.There are some on this board that feel this service is not warranted,but it just that kind of thinking that made the J,M and Z lines the butt if the system for years........
but it just that kind of thinking that made the J,M and Z lines the butt if the system for years........
And that it has.
I agree the antiquated infrastructure has limited J/M/Z service, but it has rebounded quite nicely from the dregs of the 1970's/early 80's to be fairly reliable. It is no longer a joke.
And not everyone wants to go to midtown!!! I never hear Brighton riders complaining that they have no direct service downtown.
Send it up 8th Av. from W 4th.
Would the switch from local to express really tie up traffic on 6th Avenue? The W currently switches from local to express between 42nd and 34th. If the B switched from the 6th Avenue express to the 6th Avenue local tracks between 42nd and 34th, it wouldn't be any different. The B would run with the F and V from 34th to Broadway-Laffayette, a total of five stops, just like where the W runs with the N and R from Times Square to the 11th Street cut. Then the B could merge with either the J or the M.
Well ... at the time, the KK stopped here, the (QJ was it?) stopped at other stops. If YOUR station was a KK stop, then KK you GOT. No other options at most skip stops. But man, at the shared stops, those KK's emptied out.
The KK was rush hours only, while the EE was a 5:30 a.m.-8 p.m. service weekdays and alternated with the RR while running usually R-6s, R-16s and the occassional R-40M/R-42.
Rush hour only, and the EE ran all day during the week.
There were 3 trains I never saw signed and running when I lived in the city: the KK, NX, and RJ. See a pattern?
All 3 were flawed in conception ...
Those oldtimers knew you loved 'em, if they gave you as little trouble as you say.:-)
Heh. ABD's meant a short run, and you were still on the clock. After all, when you got to your "end run" there was the wonderful "write-up" time ... "why was your train ABD'd?" I was happy to take my time 'splaining ... the BEST part of it all was while the train "laid down" and watching the mighty RCI's do their hammer thing in hopes of making the pig fly again. "Everybody off, this train is no longer in service" was the sweetest words a motorman could hear. :)
Oh really? How about the public that's paying $1.50 a pop to ride those trains? Ever think about them when hearing those "sweet words?"
You guys never cease to amaze me.
For what it's worth, the subways are a WHOLE lot more functional than they were in the 70's, which is the period of time I was describing in my post. If you think it was hell for the riders, it was a whole lot worse for those of us who tried to keep the trains moving on bailing gum and bubble wire. :)
Did you ever have to pilot one of those mixed-consist nightmares?
If you did, were they very unruly to control? Not so much the doors, but the braking, accelerating, etc.?
After seeing the R42-R10 monster pic, the mixed R14, R15, and R22's of the early 80's No.s 2,3, and 5 don't seem so bad.
I got to do some odd oggs with the R1/9's but they were pretty close to each other in performance. Sure you'd have cars kicking one another owing to the minor differences. But I never did any TRUE mongrels. I *have* ridden them though and some of the folks I worked with ran them and it was an adventure at every stop.
Although there were always standards for braking and taking off, each car design implemented them in unique ways and in combination, the "standards" would be blown to hell. Fortunately I'm not aware of any situations where the bucking and heaving was sufficient to cause a car to mount a platform, but there were times that it felt like it came THAT close. :)
I thought so...:)
I'm thinking that motorman on the R42-R10 beast was glad to bring THAT beast back to the yard.
I'd be curious as to how an R-10/R-16 lashup behaved back in the 50s. Supposedly, those two car classes were intermixed from time to time. If anything, the R-16s compromised the sheer brute speed capabilities of the R-10s.
And what about the poor motorman of this frankensteinish train of R32's, R40 slants and R42's?
OI VAAAYYYYYYYY!!!!
If the pattern continued, then the front 4 cars were probably made up of R30's and R38's. Which is why I call this train "Noah's train". 2 of everything ...
My bet's a pair of R10's ... Thank GOD R1/9's wouldn't play that. :)
For those who haven't seen it, here's the pic in question:
If I had a time machine right now, you know where I'd go first??
Right onto that goldurned train
:)
I'd be right behind you hollering, "Break it up! BREAK IT UP!!!"
Can you imagine if the TA had stuck with single cars after the R-16 order? You could have as many as 8 different car types in the same consist. Eee-eewwwwww!!
(and you wonder why us old-timers have such chitty attitudes) Heh.
I dislike mixed consists about as much as I disliked the BMT standards back when they were still around.
Looks like things never change. The N train gets the biggest smorgasboard of car types:
As Snagglepuss used to say, heavens to Mergetroid (sp).
It's crazy. I forgot that they even did things like that back then.
I'd bet he banged in sick for a couple of days after that run. :)
If intermixing the cars like that caused so much trouble, then why didn't the design engineers come up with something so that problems with compatibility would be minimized? I had no idea that the R-1s would have problems if lashed up with R-9s, even though they looked the same on outward appearance. You learn something new every day, and not just by asking Martha.
Unlike the mongrel trains, the differences weren't THAT pronounced. They would make a consist a little less smooth in operation than one made of the same "class" of cars. Over several purchase cycles, the car makers got a bit better at it and bear in mind that some were ACF's, some were St Louis Car Co, others were Pullmans and some had GE fittings, others had Westinghouse gear ... those small differences were what made them a bit different. Compared to the "Smorgasbords" they weren't all THAT bad together and I'm sure the differences weren't so pronounced when they were "new."
Now I DEFINATELY miss the mixed monstrosities.... *L*
Heh. You had to RIDE those things to realize that they were an invitation to wait for the NEXT train in. :)
Heck, what woould have come NEXT??
A train made up of Slant 40's coupled to R-38's, probably
:)
R12's would show up in there too ... dunno what they were smoking overnight in the yards, but the results were psychedelic. :)
R-12's??
You mean IRT R-12's??
How??
Heh. It's one of the things I *know* I saw out there that others here have insisted never happened - we've all agreed to what they call a "push" in card-playing but I know I saw what I saw - R12's in the consists with 8 inch gap from the platform and all in the middle of some of those sausage trains.
Like I said, good drugs to be had in the yards back then - a case of subducktion, someone smoking quack. :)
Uh....
in the words of a good, old friend of mine...
That doesn't make any sense.
WHY???
Why would the guys who put the trains together do that?
Why was there a non-work train R-12 in the yard to begin with?
Wouldn't the motorman say "No way in hell am I taking that out"
I don't get it
R-10's with R-42's, sure, why not?
but an R-12?
*hysterical laughter followed by hysterical crying* :)
Or:
You're having too much fun ... we're gonna have to drop dime on ya. :)
Or:
So, this question bubbles up from the sewer of desperation.
After the last G.O.H. of the R/40s,R/40Ms and R/42s, or the R/32s and R/38s, can they be mix/married without suffering transplant rejection syndrom? I always think there are two lonely unmated individuals seeking a short term fling to pass the time until the spouse comes home.
avid
But they had plenty of $$$ in the budget for blue and silver paint, so everyone would know they were now riding Professor William Ronan's MTA subway cars.
Maybe they should have just tried painting everything to hold it together instead of using the bailing gum and bubble wire :-)
They did that with the redbirds ... but even paint lets go after a while. :)
You forgot to mention duct tape.:-)
I didn't mention duct tape because, unlike paint, duct tape HOLDS. :)
You know what, friend? It's funny- I used to HATE those mixed type trains, but since we've all been reminiscing about them so much, I'm actually starting to grow fond of 'em, and miss 'em..Call me crazy, but the R10-R42 picture actually puts a smile on my face.
The good ol' days, eh??
:)
It is pretty crazy looking. You wouldn't even expect something close to that happening today.
If revived today, do you think the Christie St connection would be a success?
I've discussed this with planners at NYCT. The prevailing opinion is that there is still not enough demand for an Eastern Division/Sixth Avenue service to warrant reviving a "K"-type service.
David
That's probably because everyone over here has been systematically pushed onto the L, and especially in Ridgewood, private vehicles.
The F already connects the two.
As for why it failed, its part-time full-local status had something to do with it, as did demographics. It might be worth a second shot now. In particular, a C-M merger might help passengers on both lines (or it might not, but the matter could and should be studied).
The connection between the Nassau BMT and 6th Avenue Line looks like its being maintained (roadbed pretty clean, rails not rusty, tunnel lights working, et al). Why not use it?
The question is whether it would help more people than it would hurt. My guess is that it would, but I haven't taken a survey. If most of the passengers would prefer service to remain as it is, then the connection shouldn't be used just because it's there.
I think it should be given a second chance In the late 60's it was a totally different climate. That Broadway part of Brooklyn (and much of the city) was in decline. There is a sort of rebirth in Brooklyn, at least it couldn't get worse in that part of Brooklyn, and in New York as a whole.
How about running the M through to 6th Avenue, and running the J/Z skip stop weekdays all day (except nights) to replace the M on Nassau St. The only problem would be that either the J or Z would hve to be extended through Montague Street rush hours.
If you're going to run a 6th Ave/Broadway Bklyn route, it should run on the J line. Passanger demand on the M line doesn't warrant it. The trains would run empty.
Chris I know that you are an experienced and (long-suffering perhaps) rider of the Jamaica Line. What do you think about running the K from Broadway Junction through Chrystie and up 8th Av. to Wash. Hts.? This idea would provide cross-platform transfers (preferably scheduling the J or Z to meet an outgoing K at Broadway Junction an another J or Z meeting the K at Myrtle) and would entail running 6 tph each of J K M Z, thereby not only providing service to midtown but allowing the J and Z to go express and skip 8 stops, making service from Queens more attractive.
I'd rather have more frequent J/Z service than a confusing new route. We railfans have to understand that our fantasy routing schemes are often times impractical.
Would you use this service,if available?
If I needed a 6th Ave train, I would ride the "K", if it came first. If a J did, then I'd take it to Essex and x-fer to the F. I would not "wait" for it to avoid a trip down a flight of stairs. I'd take the first available train.
When I was little, I recall seeing "K" trains pass (R1-9's in MTA colors), and they were virtually empty always. The only time they were crowded is if it was REROUTED in the PM rush as an "F" filler train!!!! Plus, during that time, there were financial cutbacks all over NYC, and the "EE" runs were absorbed by the N-limited, the South Fery shuttle closed, E trains stopped going to the Rockaway, etc. Back then, I realize now, the ridership on the Broadway Bklyn segment was in decline, but that's changed today since there is an upturn in the population in that area. The K would be successful today I think. Tony
So how can we get them to try it again?
Track capacity and car availablity -- that's what all the threads over the past couple of months about where to send the V train have been about.
The KK/K ran Sixth Ave. local with the F. It can't do that now because the V train is there, and in order to get as many people as possible into Manhattan from Queens, the V will run 600-foot trains. That means it can't run on the Eastern Division, which can only handle 480-foot trains.
Of the current Manhattan north-south lines, only the C runs 480 foot trains, so that's the only line that could be routed across the Willie B without major changes. But then you need to find a replacement for the C south of West Fourth. The options would be to run the V or E to Chambers-WTC/Hudson Terminal and the other to Euclid, but right now, there aren't enough available cars to do that.
The other problem is where does the train terminate in Brooklyn? Onre suggestion has been to route the merge the M and C trains into one line, but that creates a big loop south of 14th. M passengers headed to midtown would probably change at Wyckoff for the L and then change again at Union Square, Sixth or Eighth Aves., instead of riding the train all the way down to Delancey and back again. It could terminate at East New York and take the place of the Z as B'way-Brooklyn local, though that would eliminate skip-stop service between there and Parsons-Jamaica Center.
My own personal favorite would be to route it over the flying junction at ENY to Rockaway Pkwy, giving Canarsie passengers a one-seat ride to midtown without the big loop the M option would have, though that would still kill the J/Z skip-stop. But with CTBC coming, the Canarsie line will have to be a stand-alone line for the next several years while the new signal control system is tested.
I'll take the "loop". It may be slightly longer than the L, but for people who don't live along Wyckoff, it beats getting to the L, and then having to change again (all stairs/ramps, etc) to get to midtown. It probably wouldn't require more cars, because the C would take cars from the M and whatever goes to Brooklyn would take che cars from the C. It's not really adding service.
And it really should be done on weekends, when not that many people are going downtown. Between the J and M, I would through route one with the C, and send the other to Queens Plaza (D5), which would replace the V on 53rd St. Put a shuttle on Nassau between Chambers and Essex. Perhaps many others would follow from the L and its transfers.
The change between the L and the M at Wyckoff is a pain. The stairs are unbearable. I would rather take a little longer to get to midtown with a one seat ride. It averages out because in addition to all the stairs at Wyckoff, you still got to wait for the M or L to come when you change trains, and if you just miss one it could be a while.
I haven't taken a survey, but (at least when the M is running into Manhattan) I think more passengers would be inclined to stay on the M to Delancey, Canal, Chambers, or Fulton and transfer to an uptown train than to transfer twice (to the L and again somewhere on 14th Street). Between the stairs and the additional wait for a train, I don't think it's worth it.
My inclination would be to merge the J with the C. The Z would run to Broad as it does now; when the Z doesn't run, or for passengers boarding at J-only stations, lower Manhattan is a same-platform transfer away at Marcy or Essex.
Using the connection to the L would entail a service boost on part of the Broadway line and on part of the Canarsie line (since the current L and J/Z services need to remain in place). Do the inner J/Z and outer L need service boosts? If not, this arrangement is wasteful.
From a logistical standpoint, the C train running via Essex makes the most sense -- C and J (or M) are eight cars long, so no cut in service on Eighth Ave., and the C could swap Livonia for East New York to go along with 207th St. as it's yards. Unless the MTA decides to reactivate Culver express service, there's no reason why the V (or the E) couldn't take the C's place on the Fulton local run once the B Divsion has enough available cars. That would also add to local service capacity in Brooklyn, since the E or V trains would be 600-feet instead of 480.
As far as the C/M combo, I guess people living along the M north of Wycoff and working in Midtown would try it out at first and see how their time compared with transfering to the L and the again in Manhattan. If there was little or no difference, they would stay with the single seat ride, while if for some reason there were delays (if the J/Z was given priority at Myrtle, the F was given priority at B'way-Lafayette, and the E was given priority at West Fourth), then they would go back to the Canarise line transfer and the route would fail once more.
A 168th Washington Heights/Rockaway Parkway route once CTBC is expanded to other lines still seems like the most logical future routing to me -- it creates a one-seat ride to Midtown that doesn't loop back below and above any crossing lines like the M does with the L, and would free up the J to run Broadway Junction/Myrtle/Marcy peak direction express full time during regular hours, the same way the 7 does now. Track capacity limits would kill the Z skip stop east of B'way Junction if the C used the route west of there, but the loss of that should be just about made up for rush hour riders by the expanded express run along Broadway.
So if the "C" merged with the "M" and the "V" extended to Euclid, this would necessate a route change south of West 4th St. What colour would you give to each.
Perhaps a dashing line of blue and orange.
They could have the option of using either or 6th/8th ave from 59st south in the event of a reroute.
Nice idea, sign me up as a supporter for it.
avid
Line colors are assigned according to their midtown trunk routes (G, L and 7 excepted), so a combined C/M route would be dark blue, while the V would be orange -- though I suppose they could start doing striped routes to go along with the solids, like with pool balls, if they really wanted to. (:
I think the c would probably become orange, like the B was orange on both 6th and CPW. I believe the color coding is for the midtown section of manhattan.
But the C would only be on 6th Av. at Bway Lafayette. In Midtown it would still be on 8th Av. and thus remain blue.
There's a switch at W4th? I didn't realize that. I thought it had to go up to the switch to 8th Ave line after 47th, that's why I figured orange.
Yep, Local Track on the A-C-E to Local Track on the B-D-F and vice versa. it looks on this site like a one-for-one swap could work, though I'm told that in reality, this could not work as, for some reason or other, it would lower tph.
Yes, a combined C/M line would be a loop down and back up. But I think that a lot of M riders may feel that the long way down to transfer to the L at Myrtle-Wyckoff and then another transfer at Union Square, 6th Avenue or 8th Avenue is not worth it and they ride down to Essex-Delancy already to change to the F. And considering how narrow the stairways at Essex-Delancy are and how many people use that station to transfer to the already-overcrowded F, having the option of a direct line to Midtown from Willy B would become a very popular option.
The E could easily replace the C south of West 4th. With the WTC stop on the E out long-term, there's no reason why the E couldn't go to Brooklyn. I think a combined C/M train could really work.
I know I would use it. I used to ride the M all the way to Canal or Chambers for the N/R or 456 (depending on where I was going)n just to avoid all the stairs at Wyckoff to change to the L. A little longer, but it at least seemed like less walking. A one seat ride via Chrystie St would have been great.
Lack of use, budget cuts, etc. K service never caught on, even when it was extended all the way to 168th St. Some people said it was intended to ease congestion on the F line from Jamaica, which is laughable. Who would choose to ride a slow, creaky R7/R9 K train through every blighted neighborhood in Brooklyn to get to midtown when you had a fast, underground express route sporting some of the newest cars in the system?
Some people think the V will be little used....but MAYBE if we ran the V with 480 ft cars, then thru Chrystie Street over the Willy B (and forget the Skip-stop), this would sort of "float all boats"....Broadway (Brooklyn) riders would get direct service to Midtown and Rock Center, and Queens riders might notice, appreciate, and USE the V.
A nice way to actually ad some NEW service as a result of the 63rd St connection! It may have made the cost somewhat justifiable.
My name is Kytja Weir and I am a reporter from Columbia Journalism School looking for some information on the inside of New York’s subways.
I know much has been written about the subway workers, the “mole people,” and the graffiti artists, but I am interested in the inner tunnel environment. I am trying to write a story about the things that live in the tunnels – rats, mice, bugs, people, mold, etc. – and was wondering if any of you might be able to help me.
Do any of you know about the biological life inside the subways? Or do any of you know anyone else who might know about the things that creep around in there?
Any advice or contacts you can provide is greatly appreciated. I can be reached at kew2001@columbia.edu or 646-256-0877.
Much thanks.
Kytja
My name is Kytja Weir and I am a reporter from Columbia Journalism School looking for some information on the inside of New York’s subways.
I know much has been written about the subway workers, the “mole people,” and the graffiti artists, but I am interested in the inner tunnel environment. I am trying to write a story about the things that live in the tunnels – rats, mice, bugs, people, mold, etc. – and was wondering if any of you might be able to help me.
Do any of you know about the biological life inside the subways? Or do any of you know anyone else who might know about the things that creep around in there?
Any advice or contacts you can provide is greatly appreciated. I can be reached at kew2001@columbia.edu or 646-256-0877.
Much thanks.
Kytja
There is no biological life in the subways (and includes some "people").
I'll drop you an email. outside of rats and an occasional homeless person, there's no life outside average commuters in subway tunnels. you might find occasional mummified cats and the such though. =)
Do any of you know about the biological life inside the subways? Or do any of you know anyone else who might know about the things that creep around in there?
There are quite a few two-legged creeps down there. Sorry, I couldn't let that pass.
Seriously though, I only know of rodents, but it will be interesting to find out if anyone knows of anything else
There used to be a well-know female cat living at the Times Square Shuttle station. The 70s I think. People fed the cat and sometimes adopted the kittens that the mother had.
Also there was a article in the NY Times about the cat I mentioned. Also the cat lived at one of the bumpers at track leval.
Totally off topic, but IMHO adopted stray cats are the dearest. Mine is from East Village streets, and you can't find a cat sweeter than her.
Arti
What kinds of "life" are you refering to?
The least I think you'll find are rats. Maybe you'll also encounter some discarded pets (cats and dogs) and maybe some of the "urban legends" that are part of NYC history.
hey now, i almost had my rear bitten off by an alligator down there. =)
One of the "legends" lives on!
Maybe she is thinking of heypaul.
Yes there are many life forms in the subways. They include a few stray pets, tons of rats, some homeless, spiders, bacteria, virus and of course animals with two legs.
What Kytja needs is a real inside tour of a Redbird, undercar and all. Even a TA spokesman said that the enviroment is so bad that Anthrax probably wouldn't survive for long. Peter
Now that is a scarey thought. Something more dangerious than Anthrax. I hope certain parties don't have acesss to this site.
No, it's not more dangerous than anthrax....it's just that the 'food' needed by such virus' is not too good....and I'm still scrubbing my hands five hours off duty later. The NYC Subway system is probably one of the safest places to be in....just that passengers never get to experience the work that makes it go and go and go. Peter
Peter, et al.
I would love to talk to any of you about your experiences working/exploring in such a nasty environment that even anthrax couldn't survive.
And hey, a tour of a Redbird, undercar and all, sounds good to me. Can't say I really know what that even is, but I'd at least love to hear about it.
My email is kew2001@columbia.edu and my phone is 646-256-0877. Please let me know if you would be interested in talking to me directly.
thanks.
Kytja
A redbird is a class of subway car that was built in the 1960's (Give or take) Later on they were painted a dark red color and the name redbird was unofficially given to them.
The 'Redbirds' are actually a long series of all steel bodied subway cars that were painted in rust resistant red paint and are fourty years old. They continue to run, carefully inspected and repaired, as the new replacements the TA received continue to have problems. As far as any 'tours' are concerned, the Transit Authority is always looking to show its 'best side' which would not include the 'worst.' A little effort with the public relations department with some small emphasis on programs to aid the homeless and distressed might get you a peek. Safety is a priority and escorted trips down beyond the tracks into the Netherworld are almost impossible....most ventures took place by trespassers at their own risk (not recommended.) Peter
I love to have adrenalin rushes when the trains come and you must hide between colums. Highly not recomeded cause you don't have a right to be there and no vest/ lights/ light codes.
The oddest creature I've come across underground was a bright orange chicken. It was wandering around a certain tunnel pecking through piles of trash.
Well, I'm pretty sure it was a chicken- that or a large radioactive pigeon.
heh! i emailed that story. I swear, next time we run into a *%(*& chicken down there, we're talking lots of photos.
at least it wasn't pecking at the dead dog!
I think a King Cobra is a biological life form ...
seen plenty of those in the tunnels.
Or dead rat. Look at the back (where the trains go after dischraging there passengers), manhatten-bound on the against-the-wall track and you will see 5 dead rats and a fallen down wall. Hope someone takes some pics of that. It shows the old color strip which is covered now.
I personally like the live pigeons that fly into the barn and walk about inside R142s. It's home. Peter
Don't know why, but pigeons seem to love car barns. Our (Baltimore) Irvington Car House, of 1898 vintage, housed 91 cars in 1960 and had to have at least 16 times that many pigeons. When streetcar service ended in 1963 the barn was abandoned and torn down in early 1965. Where the pigeons went after then nobody bothered to figger out.
Funny pigeon in car barn story - absolutely true.
After the Carroll Park Shops were closed to streetcars in 1959, car maintenance moved to Bay 1 of Irvington. Cars were even painted there. (by brush - they tried spray painting with a portable paint booth, but the Fire Department put an end to that.) One day, a pigeon fell into a paint can of the horrendous yellow that the NCL management of BTC adopted in 1951. The bird was covered from head to foot in yellow - and lived to tell about it. The Irvington birds tended to fly uptown to the campus of the City College, where in 1962 I saw a yellow pigeon pecking at something on the ground - the very same bird.
When things in life are bad and I start to remember how bad some of my work experiences were, the pigeons fly in the barn and peck about. If someone left a R142 transverse door open, they'll fly in. The pigeons know where home is just like me, welcomed by the TA. R142s are for the birds. CI Peter
I think that any car can be for the birds if the doors are left open. Just hope that the car cleaners have the presence of mind to clean the bird poop before the cars are placed into service for the day.
#3 West End Jeff
I can tell you that my CTAs earn their keep. Boid poop ain't nuttin compared to whats under Redbird seating. If I do Redbird Carbody, my first task IS to crack open all the seating and I leave all the gold underneath undisturbed. CI Peter
I guess what you are trying to mention is that people do their business underneath the seats. Yuk!!
#3 West End Jeff
Oh great! Another urban legend! :-)~
Just read a bit of news that London Undeground is considering ZPTO. First train to be on-line in 2008.
Arti
The Docklands Light Rail is "ZPTO" (there is an attendant on board but he doesn't operate). I would think that the Waterloo & City Line or the Central Line Woodford-Hainault shuttle would be the top candidates for LU "ZPTO".
The Aldwych shuttle would be a good candidate, although maybe a little short, if it still existed.
-Robert King
The shuttle albeit abandoned still exists. However there's practically no shot of the Aldwych shuttle coming back into service.
One other short shuttle that could be used instead is the Chesham-Chalfont & Latimer branch of the Metropolitan Line. But who knows what line they could start out with?
I know - reinstate the Ongar extension!
Chances are they'll go to total automation by turfing the ticket inspectors from the DLR.
-Robert King
It looks like they want to do away with the attendant aswell.
Arti
Is there a link to the article? I would imagine that they would install platform doors, so since part of the Jubilee line already has them, they might start with that line. Like Zman said, Waterloo and City would make sense, too. The Victoria line is automated, correct? It would be easy to make that one ZPTO.
[Is there a link to the article? ]
Unfortunately the link wouldn't do you any good as it was an Estonian online news portal. It mentioned the source of being The Times.
As for platform doors, they didn't say anything about it, but it would make a lot of sense.
Arti
Found the link to full article in Times.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001560449,00.html
That states that Victoria line is not fully automated but will be by 2008. Main reason is to spend less on personell and to make management to have a better position in labor disputes.
Arti
Well the Victoria Line was the first line to have ATO in London, so this doesn't surprize me. As far as the "train captain" scheme, that'd be a hoot on the Vicky. That line can get quite crowded.
[As far as the "train captain" scheme, that'd be a hoot on the Vicky. That line can get quite crowded. ]
Also would one bother to walk around instead of just sitting in one place and reading a book? :-)
Arti
The Victoria and Central lines have ATO. It was first introduced to the riding public on the Woodford-Hainault shuttle (Central Line) I believe around 1965.
In 1999, the total NYCT subway operating costs of $2.0 billion broke down as follows: $0.8 billion (40%) for Vehicle Operations; $0.4 billion (20%) for Vehicle Maintenance, $0.5 billion (25%) for Non-Vehicle Maintenance and $0.3 billion (15%) for General Administration. Of the nearly $2.0 billion dollars of operation expense, labor and wages for vehicle operations came to $0.2 billion or roughly 10%.
The question for NYCT is whether is is prudent to go after 10% of the operating cost or to get a handle on the remaining 90%.
Hehe 15% for GA, I'd start there :-)
Arti
question: with segway/ginger/IT on the horizon, will subways become less important, and cars banned from manhattan (finally)?
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,186660,00.html
(no, it won't happen overnight, and it's a bit to speculate on, but hey, everything else gets speculated here!)
question: with segway/ginger/IT on the horizon, will subways become less important, and cars banned from manhattan (finally)?
My fearless predictions: no, and no.
Ask the same question a year from now. For the moment, it's unenclosed, unsuitable for foul weather.
But: it does allow door-to-door travel, better than a cab, better than a car stranded out in acres of parking lot, and with less effort (and less space) than a bicycle.
It is genuinely revolutionary. I could see the subways being adapted for it. But for the moment, we wait and see its evolution.
Ask the same question a year from now. For the moment, it's unenclosed, unsuitable for foul weather.
I completely forgot about that, there's another big minus.
But: it does allow door-to-door travel, better than a cab, better than a car stranded out in acres of parking lot, and with less effort (and less space) than a bicycle.
All of that depends on where you are going and most importantly, how far. Bicycles do not take up much space to begin with and most importantly, bicycles have a transmission. They can move up steep hills and at hi-speeds on flat surfaces.
It is genuinely revolutionary.
It's just another contributor to heart disease and obesity. Designing a machine that can do what feet have been doing for millions of years is only a testiment to the extreme lazyness of our society. As Chuchubob can attest to, walking can be a perfectly acceptable way to get places quickly.
It's just another contributor to heart disease and obesity. Designing a machine that can do what feet have been doing for millions of years is only a testiment to the extreme lazyness of our society.
At 17 mph, which is roughly 4x brisk walking speed, it allows users to travel more quickly to places they CAN'T walk to but would otherwise drive to. That's a net benefit.
I see it as a BOON to industrial use - whether it passes muster in the suburban or extraurban mindset matters not. In large commercial properties, it will be a boon. Letter carriers who do foot patrol will also benefit. I don't see it being a benefit for bicycle messengers or those equipped with faster wheels, nor do I see "consumers" having any benefit until it drops under $500 a shot. And it WILL eventually.
Having taken it all in though, I DO see a market for it as a substitute for faster commuting in WALKING spaces ... the hype though, nothing can measure up to hype ... this thing's pretty neat though if used for moving small items quickly.
I see it as a BOON to industrial use - whether it passes muster in the suburban or extraurban mindset matters not. In large commercial properties, it will be a boon.
Good point.
I see it's main usefulness to be among senior citizens and others who for whatever reason may have difficulty in walking long distances. While for now I can't see how it gets around the snow and rain hazards along with street and sidewalk congestion problems, it does have the potential to restore mobility to a significant number of people who are hampered by age and/or infrimites.
It may not eliminte the use of vehicles and mass transit in big cities (unless some really buttinski lawmakers get into legislating Segways and banning cars and diesel buses for all people in those areas), but it does have the potential to play a major role in transportation for a significant group of people.
I see it's main usefulness to be among senior citizens and others who for whatever reason may have difficulty in walking long distances...
Possibly, but if its motive power comes from sense of balance, would an unsteady person be able to use one?
The stories I've read say it's "almost impossible" to tip over because of the number of gyroscopes involved. I would guess those would be able to compensate for some natrual balance problems, unless a person had some sort of inner ear defect or infection that caused an ongoing loss of balance.
Adult homes and population control? I noticed the people demonstrating them were wearing helmets!
avid
>>> Having taken it all in though, I DO see a market for it as a substitute for faster commuting in WALKING spaces <<<
The hype on this thing reminds me of the days when it was suggested that every commuter would have his own helicopter to travel around in. Could you imagine the death toll with helicopters crashing into each other everywhere? The same goes with a personal vehicle that can travel at 17 mph. It certainly should not be in the same area that pedestrians are walking at 2 mph, and if two collided at a combined speed of 34 mph, serious injuries would be inevitable.
Tom
I'd agree with you in general but at the same time, there's a lot of bicycles out there and they go even faster than these whizzers. And yet, somehow most of them survive. I *see* though why the creators were saying urban areas would need to adjust policy and modify some infrastructure for these things. For now though, I see them being used mostly inside enclosed spaces such as warehouses and perhaps large department stores, postal distribution centers, that kinda thing.
I'd get a serious dose of the shivers trying to pilot one of those across 42nd St in the dead of February. :)
I'd agree with you in general but at the same time, there's a lot of bicycles out there and they go even faster than these whizzers. And yet, somehow most of them survive.
Pedestrians do get seriously injured when hit by a bicycle.
Segway's creator says, "If a Segway hits you, it's like being hit by another pedestrian." If it's going 17 mph, it won't be like being hit by a pedestrian. Evidently, Mr. Kamen can explain the theory of general relativity, but doesn't comprehend simple mechanics.
It'll be a bonanza for 1-800-AMBULANCECHASERS then ... but do bear in mind that the number of people killed in fatal bicycle accidents is pretty low compared to "personal helicopters" which is what I had replied to. I've been knocked down by wayward pedestrians on FEET far more often than bicycles. :)
I saw a picture of the "Segway" and couldn't stop laughing. What a joke!
Well, if Lawrence Taylor was a pedestrian and he hit you on the street, it probably would feel about like that...
>>> there's a lot of bicycles out there and they go even faster than these whizzers <<<
That is not really true. The number of bicycles traveling on the sidewalk are relatively few because of their bulk compared to the size of the Segway, and generally travel much slower than 17 mph, where there are pedestrians. Your suggestion that they might be used in an industrial setting is probably correct, with a strict limitation as to how many there are in use at any one time, and with some kind of a warning signal on them. But I do not see them as a common general consumer method of urban transportation.
BTW, I have seen a low tech alternative out here; motorized razor type scooters which travel at about 10 mph. The handle part folds down onto the board, so it could be carried on public transportation with a smaller footprint than a folded baby stroller (but is not allowed because of the fuel). The engine which is not much larger than a large model airplane engine drives the rear wheel. It is started by pushing off on the scooter which cranks the engine, and when you stop, the brake also kills the engine. I have not inspected any of these things closely, but have observed kids riding them and starting and stopping.
Tom
I guess we'll see how they do. Out in the sticks where I live, it'd never be quite practical with steep hills, rought terrain and brutally cold winters. They'll never sell as well as they've been hyped, but I do see a number of situations where they could be quite useful. I suppose we'll all see in time.
"where I live, it'd never be quite practical with steep hills, rought terrain "
The "segway" wouldn't last a day in Sea Cliff either. I'm still having a good laugh over this over-hyped piece of garbage. And it's 3 grand by the way, you could buy a used car for that much.
Ummm ... try EIGHT grand for one of those - $3,000 is a future target price. Like I've said repeatedly, it's CUTE ... it has some possible uses. Then again, so does a forklift but I don't see many wanting to drive one to work. :)
That contraption?
I GUARANTEE I will fall off it within 5 minutes of getting on one...
www.forgotten-ny.com
For $8,000.00 current MSRP right now, it had better reach over and pick you up. :)
For $8,000.00 current MSRP right now, it had better reach over and pick you up.
I'd guess that their largest single cost item is product liability insurance.
Even if you don't manufacture a personal floatation device. :)
But yeah, I'd guess they have not yet underestimated those vying for Darwin awards ... I can see the 12-9's now.
Quite to the contrary, I see it being quite complimentary to the subway. People will be able to live and work further from the subway, and use a Segway to get to and from the nearest station. And the Segway looks much easier to take with you on the train than a bike, which can be quite cumbersome.
I'm very dissapointed in the price, though. $3000 is very steep, and apparently that's even an optimistic price - $3000 is what they *hope* to get it *down* to. I think they need to get it down near the $1500 range for it to really be successful.
As one of the stories about it said, it's about $2000 and 40 pounds too much.
I'd give it a couple or three years. Certainly, if they start producing millions of units per year in Asia, the price should come way down. Design refinements will also come along. And further ideas about integrating it into the current transportation infrastructure should will have developed.
I think if anything, it'd be a boom to transit (provided it doesn't weigh a ton :) Roll up to station, get on, get off, roll to work? I can see it.
How about a 4ft 8.5 inch + flanges extender for the wheelbase? When Amtrak breaks down again, pop a door, roll along the tracks ;)
Heh. FRA would require handlebar signalling and an FRA cert to ensure that you knew what to do when you rolled up to a red/red. :)
I think if anything, it'd be a boom to transit (provided it doesn't weigh a ton :) Roll up to station, get on, get off, roll to work? I can see it.
Provided they are allowed on trains at peak times. You would like to be the person trying to segway himself into an SRO 5-bird at rushhour?
One thing I noted in the photo op is that folks seemed to be standing in place on them without falling over, so it's quite possible given the design that you could stand on yours on the train. Perhaps that's the reason for the 2.5 MPH accel/decel curves for subway cars these days to prevent them from tipping. :)
It still takes up more space.
I don't even think that'd be the major issue ... think about the staircases ... much more of an issue there I would guess than on the trains themselves.
How much is the weight again? I consider myself fairly fit and generally have no problem lugging my mountain up and down stairs at a run, but I can see how many other people would have problems w/ that. My bike weighs about 25-40 pounds.
I have no idea ... the economy sucks SO badly, can't even think about getting one. It'd only be depressing. :)
The illustrations in the patent application show a six-wheeled device that can climb stairs (I assume this is the iBot?). Look, it already has optional equipment!
As far as bringing these things onto buses and subways goes, I agree that it's right up there with bicycles, strollers, and backpacks. And if this thing moves by the operator's thinking about it moving, I hope it's "smart" enough to know the difference between someone "thinking" about diving off a platform edge and their actually wanting to go ahead with it.
One way to cut the price dramatically would be to replace the balance sensors and computing power with a simple joystick, but then it doesn't seem so revolutionary.
I agree.
Where do you tie the thing up when you're not using it? At $3000 a pop, there'd be a hell of a market for stealing and reselling them.
At that price, they could just as well be considered cars (since $3000 is about what you might pay for a half-decent used car), and look at the amount of security features you need there! (On top of that, you can't exactly pick up a car and walk away with it...)
I say, until the price gets below about $500, there's virtually no market, except among postal workers or couriers. A bit lighter, too, would be good.
Sounds like a passing fad to me. I expect to hear nothing more about it in a few months.
Think zero degrees and no heater ... in the summertime, seems a wonderous idea. But I don't see the money for the changes to urban infrastructure and mad money in people's pockets to do it right away. A very interesting idea though. Eventually, it will make an impact.
Maybe they can strap a belt attatched to a snow plow around the scooter rider's waist and he can plow the snow in front of him as he speeds along at 14 mph in the middle of January. They can call it the Special Upstate New York Attatchment :-)
Since the post office is ordering them to be tried out in selected locations, I want to see the 14 mph scooter get its first mail carrier test against the target neighborhood's 32 mph Rottweiler...
Hahahaha ... well, up here where 3 feet of snow are the norm for many given dumps up in the hills, the thing would need to be equipped with a biggie fan on the front and a periscope if there's any hope of travelling between a couple of weeks from now and March. And obviously handlebar gun mounts to take out the neighborhood Rottweilers ... a good war time ride. Heh.
This thing is all hype.
First of all, the Segway furfills a role already covered by those little Razor scooters. Second, it is much more expansive, prone to theft and damage, harder to store and carry and probably has trouble w/ water, steep inclines, non-paved surfaces and general city grime.
If people do use this product for some reason it might replace some forms of city driving (ie anything that dosen't require cargo or passengers), but most of those people usually walk or bike or scoot as it is, so I anticipate the market to come from current pedestrians or from corporations.
This will probably not hurt mass transit travel as a subway moves MUCH faster than 15mph and you don't have to content w/ throngs of pedistrians OR crossing other streets. This might stand to enhance mass transit as a big complaint is that transit rarely takes people exactly where they want to go and many people abhore walking any great distance. In theory, mass transit stations could serve as a hub and spoke system for people on segways. This would increase the popularity of hi-speed, limited stop services such as light rail, express busses and heavy rail.
This brings up an interesting point. The popularity of this product could be directly related to its accpetance on mass transit. If various TA's treat it like a bi-cycle, restricting its use on trnsit vehicles, then fewer people will be inclined to get one.
R/160 to incorporate overhead Segway storage racks. ADA compliant stations to be rushed to provide lift for Wheelchairs and Segway. Mothers with Strollers compete with Segway for space! Hoverboader replaces Segway! Second Ave Line to get Funds for Study and Impact Evaluation! There is a Tooth Fairy.... Gay Dentist opens office.
avid
Some random thoughts about the Segway.
Its use would have to be licensed. About 25 years ago, the moped manufacturers convinced New York State that a moped limited to 20 mph need not be licensed. It was a fairly irresponsible law and such mopeds are now classified as Class C limited use motorcycles and must be licensed.
The fact that the Segway has no seat and the user is standing means that it cannot be considered a motorcycle under NY State Law. I have not checked but the NY State definition probably uses the Uniform Vehicle Code definition for motorcycle and would be used by most other states. My guess is that under the present NYS V&T the Segway must be licensed and there is no povision for describing it other than a limited use motor vehicle. It looks like AASHTO will have to figure out how to handle this potential street menace before it appears in quantity.
The small wheels would appear to make the Segway have problems with street surface irregularities. A small depression (aka pothole) that would be no problem for a 13-15" automobile tire or a 27" bicycle tire will seem like the Grand Canyon for the Segway's shopping cart sized wheels. Even if the Segway's gyros keep it upright, the passenger will still be subject to Newton's Laws.
The 17 mph speed is equivalent to a very good bicyclist. Professional racers will average 25 mph. How good are the brakes? What will keep the passenger from separating from the vehicle in a panic stop? Wearing brain buckets will have to be required.
The publicity seems to indicate a 17 mile range and a 1 hour charge time. Such chargers would use a lot of amps and weigh a lot. My guess is that the charger would be a separate unit and not carried on the relatively light (40 lbs) vehicle. This will define its initial use. It will be from the home to a destination that is in the 4-6 mile (15-20 minute) range.
If this is successful, it should prove ideal for Manhattan residents. Everyone below 110th would be within the Segway's range to midtown and downtown. The $3K price tag would be just right for the Upper East Siders. It's a good thing the MTA will not dig a single shovel for the 2nd Ave Subway until 2005. It would no longer be necessary by then.
This is not quite what the power companies need capacity-wise. An added demand that is more likely in summer and during daylight hours.
Inquires from Stop & Shop, White Castle and Space Mountian are expected to speed through put.
avid
Okay, you early-bird railfanners -- where are the R-143 shots? I expected at least Trevor to have one or two shots up on SubTalk by now...
BMTman
It's too early. They're still in foreplay. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
He's probably riding it for the millionth time.
Story here.
That's the train that runs with ex-Amtrak Clocker cars.
Was it IRT, BMT or LIAR? Why would a tourist train be running in that area anyway? I didn't know Flatbush Ave was such a hot destination. Was it some sort of railfan excursion?
Did the Culver Shuttle ever get as far as the R-30's? Or something older? Just curious.
I think it only went as far as R16's
The most recent picture I could find on the site is R32, if you take a look at the Culver Shuttle Page.
I find that photo very interesting
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/culver/shuttle/r32-3525a.jpg
I have never seen R-32 MU'd with what appears to be earlier R units (looks like -27s) before while in service.
"Smorgasbord" trains were the WAY back then ... kept the railfans happy. If you didn't like a 27/30, you could go back 2 cars and ride in a 32, two more back a 38, or you could move from an R10 into a 42. You could have any car you wanted on any train at times.
Yes, Virginia ... once upon a time, the subway was INTERESTING. :)
I remember "smorgasboard" consists well. I thought they were great. Many crews did not share my enthusiasm, though. I remember one T/O in the late 70's describing his mixed R-27/30/40m/42 as "braking like a rubber band".
Peace,
ANDEE
Ummmm ... railfoamers and people who actually gotta "work this thing" are often at absolute odds over "reality" (patent pending) and yes, mixed consists were like a damned rodeo in the cab. But that didn't stop dispatch from ordering bizarre mating rituals in the yards. The geese at the window couldn't be happier though. :)
Fortunately the R1/9's wouldn't play nice *AT ALL* with the other kids even though each class from R1 to R4 to the 3 6's to 7's to 9's were each VERY different and would play "ride 'em cowboy" in their own unique idiom as well. They were NEVER classed into their own consists as one type either, at least not on the D train. But if we had to mix SMEE and AMUE, it would have been MOST interesting indeed.
>>>Fortunately the R1/9's wouldn't play nice *AT ALL* with the other kids....<<<
HAHA... sorta like todays R-68s not being able to play with R-32/38/40/42. The more things...oh never mind.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok what was the oldest, Lo Volts are Q Cars
The Q's ... more lives than Morris the Cat.
Lo/V's were about 10 years younger (1916-1917) than the Q's which were originally gate cars from 1903-1907.
That's OK ... word is the 142's and the 142A's don't get along either. Whoda thunk that train couplers were capable of a good old fashioned Bronx handshake? :)
sorta like todays R-68s not being able to play with R-32/38/40/42.
I did see yard moves where an R-40 was coupled to some R-68s .... so I guess they can, er, mate ... but it probabyl would be unsafe for pax trying to move between cars in general ....
--Mark
They have the same couplers and I would assume the same pin arrangement on the electric portions, so you could couple them together. They'll probably never intermix 60-footers with 75-footers for revenue service, though.
Ooops! Was that second car 1575?
Heh. Wiseass ... that one performed NICELY with the other kids. It was when some putz tried to lash it up to R10's that the adventures began. :)
Heh. Wiseass I resemble that remark. When they mixed the equipment, did they go out of the way to install triggers at the conductor's position or avoid that like they did in the IRT?
Well, in the case of the "imposter" the R1/9's and the R10's had bottles on the ends to begin with (must have made for interesting times when the 10's were lashed to 42's) but as far as I know on the electric section, they must have done something amusing to make them open and close as expected since somehow it worked. I don't even want to guess how.
But on the motorized doors, I'd bet it didn't matter all that much. Like I said, I tended to get solid R1/9'ers and once or twice, got to take out 32's ... never did any smorgasbords on either trainsets. Sure did hear the griping in the crew room from those who did take out "bucky beavers" though. Seems the biggest problem was getting and holding indication.
Well, there's that classic photo of R-10s and R-42s in the same A consist, and in it the R-10s appear to be on the ends with the R-42s in the middle. Larry Redbird R-33 says there was one consist of 8 R-32s with an R-10 tacked onto each end. Since the pins on the electric portions were arranged the same way on all SMEE cars, they were compatible. Train Dude explained that it didn't matter what was actually controlling the doors as long as the trainline circuits matched up. In other words, the doors on the R-10s would respond to a key and button in the same manner as a trigger box.
Luckily the R-10s were rarely intermixed with other cars. They were in a class by themselves and deserved to run in solid trains.
Yep ... just like I managed to avoid the "trucks" and the "docks" in the west village and I hung out on Christopher Street in the 70's, amused by the "catfights" among beavers with kickstands, I'm JUST as glad that I never had to operate mongrel consists. There was a REASON why I was willing to take R1/9 duty ... as much as those could be bucking beavers, wasn't diddly compared to mixed 32's and 38's and even more bizarre rolling stock sexual mixes. :)
I probably would have preferred running oldtimers as well, had I worked for the TA back then. Their marvelous assortment of sounds would have mesmerized me. Come to think of it, I was always mesmerized whenever I got a prewar train.
I came in during a flurry of replacements for a big bulge in retirements. Most of us were newbies at the time and damned few of them wanted to hear about taking out the "oldies" ... there were plenty of jobs on the R1/9's and I *really* wanted to work the D. So by picking what I picked, I had my chance. Of course by the time we got down to *my* number, all the 32's had been taken.
It was the opposite when I came out. The CC was the senior line because of the one trippers that made the line up. My first picked job on the Concourse was R27/30 cars, but my time on the XX gave me plenty of time on the rolling thunder.
Forgive me ... when was your "coming out party?" Heh. 27/30's on the concourse? Yipe! Once upon a time it was 32's or R1/9's, if anything else came up from 145th it was usually taken out at 161st with a grenade. :)
(Luckily the R-10s were rarely intermixed with other cars. They were in a class by themselves and deserved to run in solid trains.)
However on the IRT the R-12's (which were pretty similar to the R-10's) were very ofter coupled with newer cars. I don't ever recall them being in the conductor's position so they never used the triggers.
R-27/30's. And they were loaded with graffiti.
BMTman
Absolutely right, Selkirk. My first year in motors was the last year of the RR from Astoria-95. One trip I took a train of 4 cars of R27s with 4 cars of R16s. That trip was an ADVENTURE. Thank goodness it was 2AM or somebody would have ended up on the floor.
Mixing R27's with R16's was quite common on the Eastern Division. Those R16's didn't like getting tugged along any fatser than they normally wanted to go.
The craziest consist I ever rode was 8 cars of R42,R32,R27,R42
At least the R-16s blended in well with the R-27/30s from a stylistic point of view. Kind of like the R-32s and R-38s or R-40Ms and R-42s.
I never cared for smorgasbord trains. Give me a solid consist.
Heh. I only rode the mongrel trains, sometimes as an employee. Knowing the job though and what an adventure a train of similar bad order cars were at the time, mongrels were truly "hands full" operation. Pity they didn't sell DEPENDS at the time. :)
Indeed, or at least bring a raincoat with you because you knew you were going to spill your coffee on your pants.
Back in the old days with dead motors, hung shoes and all sorts of other "surprises," you just knew not to bring a beverage with ya into the cab. I lived on ring dings and devil dogs. If you put up the bench, you'd usually be able to find them when you needed them on the floor up against the panel. :)
Sometimes you just had to live dangerously. Midnights on the road is a bitch. Ya just gotta have the caffeine. Come to think of it, it's the same on AMs too.
"Splits" was even worse ... it's funny ... I never had a problem with feeling like I was going to doze off, especially on the road. As long as I had plenty of sugar of course. :)
"I lived on ring dings and devil dogs"
How about twinkies !
Bill "Newkirk"
Ring Dings and Devil Dogs were products of Drake's Cakes. I remember them well. They also had Yodels, Cream Cups, Fruit Doodles, and Yankee Doodles. Compared to what Hostess had to offer, the analogy was thus:
Ring Ding - Ding Dong
Fruit Doodle - Fruit Pie
Cream Cup - Cupcake (I think)
IIRC Hostess didn't have a counterpart to the Devil Dog.
The Maytag Repair Man once did a Devil Dogs commercial.
Drake's started to offer Sunny Doodles in 1972 to by best recollection.
#3 West End Jeff
Drake's started to offer Sunny Doodles in 1972 to my best recollection.
#3 West End Jeff
Geez ... what is this? If you can't beat it, EAT it? Heh.
That is the idea of this post. If you can't beat it, EAT it.
#3 West End Jeff
Food Talk has reared its ugly head again.:-)
You forgot the BEST thing about Drakes: Their uncomperable coffee cake! Absolutely THE best accompianment to a hot cup of Chock Full O'Nuts coffee...Hostess coffee cake can't hold a candle to it....
I think you're right about Drake's Coffee Cake. They're still probably the best Coffee Cakes that you can buy.
#3 West End Jeff
Oh man, I forgot about them. They were delicious!
Hostesses' counterpart to the Devil Dog would be Suzy Q's. (abeit wider). Drakes' chocolate was unique. All the other companies' devils food is the same.
I've never heard of Cream Cup. The Doodles are Drakes' cupcake brand. For many years the Ding Dong was called "Big Wheels" in areas where Drakes were sold, because of the fact that it was ripped off of Ring Dings and there was some legal action or something. When ITT Continental bought Drakes in 1987, then "Ding Dongs" appeared in NY, briefly. But this near monopoly was quickly broken up, so then Hostess came up with "King Dons". Now, they've all been bought out by Interstate (Dolly Madison), so the Ding Dong brand appeared again. Noone has been able to break up this even greater monopoly.
I wonder how many people are aware that as big as Drakes is here, you cannot find them between Delaware and Florida, and anywhere West of those states. It is purely a Northeast product, although it has been briefly distributed other places (including California in '89), and now under IBC, they are trying once again to expand, I hear. They are all over Florida, because many Jewish people from NY retired there, bringing the kosher cakes with them (most of the others used beef fat and lard --ugh! as shortening, and some still use beef, although Hostess is slowly going kosher). From Pennsylvania to Virginia, Tastykake has the place Drakes does here. Elsewhere, Dolly Madison, which we see here loosely distributed by Lady Linda and Betty Jane, usually in bodegas, is the big competitor to Hostess, and as I mentioned, they are now owned by the same company.
I liked the swiss rolls, which have come back in recent years, and they also had an imitation Twinkie called "shortcakes", which were filled with strawberry, and then banana and chocolate filling at first.
And I used to complain because my 'SnoBalls' cost twelve cents in California when I paid only ten in New York City?? What TA really needs is some Twinkies in R142 propulsion! CI Peter
Perhaps a couple of wads of drake's cakes in the motor housing will slow them down to specs. :)
Slow down??? CIs are already starting to grease the motor zerk fittings which will have catastrophic results. Those Hostess 'morning coffee buns' have 27 grams of fat. CI Peter
Nothing beats Entemann's, not even Krispy Kreme!!!
Maybe Freihofer's..even though THOSE two are now owned by the same conglomerate......actualy Freihofer's makes the best BREAD anywhere...including those great New England frankfurter rolls....
Now that you mention Big Wheels, I remember those, too. There was an animated commercial with an Indian, er, Native American chief plugging them.
Drake's also had Vanilla Ring Dings, which I didn't particularly care for. Their Cream Cups were the counterpart to Hostess's Cupcakes.
don't forget the drake's coffee cake!!
Not enough SUGAR! Heh. I wasn't unknown for heading for a wayside street vendor, but the reality of my "ta" employment was that given my bizarre hours, I would grab a couple of bottles of RC or CocaCola which of course wasn't a problem in a wayward car with the cap sealed, and of course my ding-dongs on the rails.
Ask anyone - the MUNCHIES getcha when operating. You keep your fluids safe (since no cab is equipped with a cup-holder even if they come with a coat-hook nowadays) and captive, and the shirt pocket is there to hold your ding dongs. Heh. Life on the road, munch-munch, oh sheet.
Yumm! Ring-Dings and Devil Dogs -- the REAL Breakfast of Champions!
;-D
LOL!
AMEN
Heh. Not everybody likes "Little chocolate donuts" for breakfast. And with the 42's and 44's beginning to show up in earnest at the time, there was something "totally ta" about eating "ding-dongs" on the job. :)
It's worked for me quite well for nearly 40 years now :)
--Mark
IIRC the R-1/9s were kept segregated by car class. One yard would have, say, R-1s while another would have R-6s. Wayne says all the prewar F trains he rode on were R-6/7 mixes. The D was almost all R-4s when you did trigger and handle time. It would make sense, as just about all the prewar D trains I ever rode on didn't have headlights, and some R-4s never got them.
They all had their own characteristics ... the R6's were considered "trophies" by yardmasters and they WANTED THEM BACK at the end of the tour. As much as the R6's were considered a treat, there were 3 different flavors of them that didn't get along. The R4's were fat city but were often put into other consists because they had MOTORS AND BRAKES in the same carbody ... the R1's were nice but blew blue smoke and the R9's were in somewhat better shape but just didn't have the "oomph" of the older cars ...
Now picture all this shit put together in one consist. That's what I woke up to most every morning ... Bucky Beaver, Bullwinkle and Rocky with a tad of Snidely Whiplash thrown in just to sour the milk. There's a reason why they were separated out into stable bunkmates ...
I envy the elderly
Yo, stranger! Hand me down my cane, boy! Heh. Good to see you're still around ... moo.
Wayne considers the R-6-2s the alltime speed champions of the prewar fleet, 1233 in particular. We've dubbed it "A-440 1233" because it headed an F train whose bull and pinion gears got up to A-440 (that's A above middle C) on the Union Turnpike-Parsons Blvd. racetrack once. Wayne was afraid that train would become airborne, it was moving so fast.
The 6's would often wind up on the ends. The problem was what was stuck in the middle. All it took was 2 R9's in the consist and the 6's would go *BANG!* everytime you wrapped it since the R9's were like a burro sitting down. You'd end up dragging them 300 feet before they got with the program. Heh. 6's and 4's didn't get along too badly and some of the R1's that still had motors were pretty peppy too.
(the R1/9's wouldn't play nice *AT ALL* with the other kids...)
I don't know the technical aspects of it but I do have to tell you that at Branford they couple The R-9 1689 with a Low-V and it seems to work OK.
The last ones to run on the Culver Shuttle were the R27/30. The most recent vintage was R32.
wayne
i dont believe we once let trains get that dirty...
To be honest with you I stopped riding the Culver when they stopped running Standards. I remember railfanning on it with 2 car Standards that looked like they came out of a junk yard, broken windows and all. The Standards on the "LL" weren't nearly as bad at the time. I always talked to the crew. I got the feeling it was a small town railroad, like the Cannonball on Petticoat Junction.
By the way, who remembers R-11's on the Franklin Shuttle. If I remember correctly they replaced the Standards there.
I think that by the time the put the R-11's on the Franklin Shuttle, they had become the R-34 (the rebuild designation).
If you can find out when they were rebuilt, that'll tell you approximately when they were there, I would think.
The rebuild happened somewhere around 62-64, AFAIK (obviously between the delivery of the R-32s and the R-36s).
BMTman
the R11"s were rebuilt in 1965
The NY Times had a big article regarding the Manny B in the Metro section today (Monday). Besides it being interesting and containing a full colour diagram, it made an accersion that I believe to be in error. It said that most of the Manny B problems come from placing the subway tracks on the outside (true), but then it stated several times that this design was odd and nobody knew why the engineer did not put the tracks in the middle like on "most" other suspension bridges.
The only large bridges that I know of that have both rail and road tracks are the manny B, the Willy B, the Ben Franklin B and the Sydney B in austrailia. Amoung those only the Willy B has the tracks in the middle. In fact, the BFB was designed by the same guy (Moisseiff) and exhibits none of the problems of the Manny B.
I think that the problem is more than just placing the tracks on the outside of the bridge (logically I might add as the greatest load should be placed nearest the supports (cables)) and that the times is making an unfair generilization.
Are there any engineers that wish to comment? (Phil?)
The URL:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/03/nyregion/03BRID.html
The original design for the second level of the George Washington Bridge had four tracks in two pairs. Each pair was located about halfway from the center to the edge, with a gap in the middle. (The present lower level keeps the gap.)
Could some of the Manny B problems be caused by the weight of the trains being in excess of the original design limits?
That may be it. I seem to recall that the twisting problem was partly due to unequal train frequency across the bridge compounding a desigfn flaw that was more than just the trains being on the periphery.
In any event, the new steel braces should substantially take care of the problem.
(In any event, the new steel braces should substantially take care of the problem.)
I hope so, but I'm not optimistic. The article conceeded the bridge will still twist. Eventually, the steel will start to crack. And there is less of it than there was 50 years ago, thanks to 50 years of unrelieved rust.
After an investment of $500 million and 22 years of reconstruction, if the bridge is a wreck again in 20 years, it will be a disaster for the City.
That's not a concern by itself. All bridges twist to some degree, especially suspension bridges. All NYCDOT has to do is bring the twisting down to a magnitude similar to other bridges. If they do that, and not neglect maintenance, it'll last a lot longer than 20 years.
My experience is that not all engineers are sure of that.
Then again, the bridge lasted from, say 1920 to 1982 the first time. So if they bring it back to its initial state, perhaps it will last another 62 years -- enough for me and my kids. Grandkids are screwed.
Then again, the bridge lasted from, say 1920 to 1982 the first time. So if they bring it back to its initial state, perhaps it will last another 62 years -- enough for me and my kids. Grandkids are screwed.
What matters is not whether it lasts long enough for our grandchildren, but whether it lasts until the current politicians are out of office.
I'm not an engineer, but a physicist, so I'll comment on the track location issue.
Having the tracks near the longitudinal axis is the way to go, and the location of the tracks relative to the vertical cables is not the main issue.
You see, if a train passes on one track on one side of the train, there's an off-balance load on the roadway, and the roadway under the train twists in response - the side with the train moves down and the other side goes up. This, in turn, can (in really bad cases) set off oscillations of the type seen in the footage of the 1940 collapse of the first Tacoma Narrows Bridge, as the entire road bed shifts up and down in an oscillatory response (i.e. "doing the wave").
This repeated torsion takes its toll on the road bed and the girders supporting it, which are intended to remain as rigid as possible.
On the other hand, if the train runs on or near the longitudinal axis, the effect of the passing train is mostly to cause the entire road bed to pitch downward, stretching the vertical support cables and the main suspension cables. But that's the major load-bearing mode of the bridge anyway, and they're designed to do that.
Simple up-and-down translation of the road bed, and stretching of the support cables - designed for and intended. Torsional twisting of the road bed - not designed for and not intended.
Now, you have the fact that the load on the Manny B has been very unbalanced, with one set of tracks used vastly more than the other (I think it's the north side, but I might be wrong on that), and you have a recipe for major problems.
Are there other design flaws with the Manny B? I have no idea - you'll need an engineer with experience in this for that.
As for the Benny B, I understand that the trains running on it are much less frequent and significantly smaller (6 cars, IIRC), so the unbalanced load is comparably less. Willy B has the tracks down the longitudinal axis.
Ben Franklin Bridge has, except for rush hours, 2 (x 67') car trains every 20 minutes. On each side.
Manhattan Bridge has 8 (x 75) car trains about every 4 minutes. On one side. South only in the 80s, North only in the 90s, and now South only again in the 00s.
The service is 20 minutes only late at night and on Sundays. Usually it is 5-15 minutes.
2 (x 67') car trains every 20 minutes. On each side. - Henry
The service is 20 minutes only late at night and on Sundays. Usually it is 5-15 minutes. - Mike
I think you missed the "2". Or the "On each side".
Suspension Bridges are really not the ideal choice for rail traffic, that is why you don't see it too often, and why the Manhattan Bridge is in such bad shape, besides neglect.
On the R and N line south of Whitehall St there is a turnoff for a line that would have went somewhere. Does anyone know where?
It's the Broad Street turnoff. And it's in use.
Before that. As the N and R leaves Whitehall and before it meets the M coming out of Broad, there is a short piece of tunnel from the 2 tracks. (After the express track at Whitehall switches to the 2 tracks)
The Broadway line was original supposed to enter Brooklyn at a point south of where it currently does. When the line was built the plans were changed.
Or it is the beginning of the tunnel to Staten Island.....
The SI tunnel bellmouths are south of the 59th St. station in Brooklyn. The BMT never had any plans to build a 5 1/2 mile long tunnel under New York Harbor when a 1 1/2 mile one from their home base in Brooklyn would be a lot cheaper (but, unfortunately, still not cheap enough to ever have gotten built).
The SI tunnel bellmouths are south of the 59th St. station in Brooklyn.
Where exactly are these located? I've known about their supposed existence for years, but I've never seen them or met anyone who knew exactly where they were. If I can find out more about these I'll include a short section in version 3.1 about them.
Heck, maybe I should do a whole section on bellmouths and what/where they were intended to serve!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Bell mouths sounds good. The S.I tunnels were started, with the hope of being pickedup by the city. Check the slope of 63rd st. I beleive there were once manhole covers marked NYCTA of some such in the area.
avid
Bell mouths sounds good. The S.I tunnels were started, with the hope of being pickedup by the city. Check the slope of 63rd st. I beleive there were once manhole covers marked NYCTA of some such in the area.
If you or anybody else can show me where the bellmouths are located south of 59th St. I'll gladly include them in future editions.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
I left Bayridge twentseven Years ago. When I did live there it was for only three years.
On the surface, It is where the Belt Parkway seperates from I-278. On the southside of this divide, there is a street that slopes down towards the water. There are homes on the south side of the street and the complex of parkways, exits and entrances. I'm going to see what I can find on the "maps" . I'll be back.
avid
Wakeman Pl. I bekeive it is under wakeman Place. It all happens around the place where the N splits off of 4th Ave.
I hope this helps.
avid
Wakeman Pl. I bekeive it is under wakeman Place. It all happens around the place where the N splits off of 4th Ave.
I hope this helps.
I don't mean to sound like I'm doubting you, but I'm just curious as to what your source is and how is it verifiable, other than just manholes on the surface?
My original map from the 70s even shows a dashed line west of the Sea Beach cut, but so far I've seen nothing to prove that there was ever anything related to this tunnel there--no bellmouths in the tunnel that I ever saw.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Bay Ridge is mostly a gentle slope downward to the 90s, where a distinct downslope becomes apparent. As you go along Shore Parkway, it becomes a cliff in sections, particularly along Shore Road, all the way up to Owls Head Park. Nonetheless, Bay Ridge is largely 'flat'. It's 4th Avenue that 'slopes down to the water'. 5th Av joins 4th, while 3rd Av ends at Shore Road. The main commercial streets are 5th Avenue, and between 4th & 5th Avenues, 86 St. Remember the good old days of Birnbaums, before Rockbottom took it over?
The 4th Ave subway is oversized down there. On occasion, at 86th St., I saw some open doors: the mezzanine actually extends the full width of 4th Ave. I would not be suprised if a trackway exists under the mezzanine, paralleling the current alignment.
As for 4th Avenue, you have to realize it is quite wide, from Atlantic Ave until it crosses the Sea Beach cut, it's six lanes, sometimes with a concrete median. I mention this because readers here seem to not understood my question about routing the Gowanus under 4th (after moving the current subway elsewhere).
As for the most prominent monument (particularly from I278 coming from the VN bridge), this is Our Lady of Perpetual Hope Church, which is actually in Sunset Park. I mention this because this is a genuinely gargantuan building (it's a double church); it subs for St. James Cathedral whenever anything big is done.
At the sound end of the station at 59 St there is something lke 3 "doors", I can't think of the correst word. Naybe that's a type of bellmouth. One is for the ramp for the N. One is for the R and the 3rd was supposed to have been for the line to Staten Island.
At the sound end of the station at 59 St there is something lke 3 "doors", I can't think of the correst word. Naybe that's a type of bellmouth. One is for the ramp for the N. One is for the R and the 3rd was supposed to have been for the line to Staten Island.
Thanks. Next time I'm lucky enough to find an R-32 R train I'll go and take a closer look. I've taken the N to 59th and looked like crazy at the south end of the plat and nothing's jumped out at me.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
IIRC, there's a bit of a notch about 50 yards or so past 59th St., though it's not as big a bellmouth as at some other spots on the system (a baby-bell mouth?)
IIRC, there's a bit of a notch about 50 yards or so past 59th St., though it's not as big a bellmouth as at some other spots on the system (a baby-bell mouth?)
Groannn. OK, very cool. I'll take a look next time an R-32 R pops up Going My Way.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
They're not really bellmouths, but the tunnel does not narrow south of 59th St., thereby leaving two trackways- one on either side of the 4 active tracks. Looking South on the S/B platforms, the MoW building that you see 100 feet into the tunnel is sitting in one of the trackways. The view from the N/B platform is unobstructed, albeit much darker. The trackways run for about 150 feet. The one on the N/B side ends in a brick wall, with evidence of some sort of space beyond. Even further South, the bridge over the Bay Ridge cut has four trackways, with the 2 active tracks of the 'R' line occupying the two westernmost ones (by this point, the Fourth Av line swings over to the Western half of 4th Av).
P.S. Love the idea of a section on bellmouths and misc. unused provisions for expansion!
EGGS!
That's a derail. There used to be switches there. In theory, runaway trains that flew through the station too fast would trigger the switch to move, and be sent straight into a solid wall. Better than what would happen if a runaway train made it into a river tube, I suppose...
The derailer is on M Track at the south end of the station. Should a train start to roll out of the station while the switch is set against it, the derailer will put every truck that passes it on the ground.
Isn't the derail always activated unless that homeball going
south out of M track pocket is clear? Boy, you'd sure have
to respect that ball!
The derailer can be set aside, even if the homeball stays red. It's a separate switch I believe.
Your can probably set the derail aside only if the conflicting move into the SB local is not set up, or has timed out
...or the middle track is cleared for reverse traffic running NB from the SB tube.
I looked there, and the derail is directly south of the Homeball. It looked like it would throw you in the dirt regardless of the facing point position.
I'd be interested to know how the presence of the derail affects conditional cross-locking...
Does the derail have a lever number?
yes, seperate from the homeballs or switches
While everyone else calls 'em DE-rails, the TA calls 'em de-RAIL-lers.
As one has probably noticed all token booths have a number to them. Does anyone know what were the booth numbers for the former Fulton St El? The Lexington El? The 2nd Ave El? The 3rd Ave El? The old Culver Line (previous to 1954)?
I know the pattern was like N=IND, M=BMT, and R=IRT. So N-2120 was an IND booth. That's all I know about the booths.
Phil Hom
IND booths have the N numbers
IRT Booths have the R numbers
BMT booths have the A thru K.
F was the Culver line (abondoned).
G is the Coney Island area.
I is unknown
K is the Myrtle El East of B'way.
L might have been the Lexington El.
Does anyone know what were the booth numbers for the booths that no longer exist? If the booths had numbers.
2nd, 6th and 9th Ave Els in Manhattan.
Lexington, Fulton, 3rd and 5 Ave Els in Brooklyn.
Will the TA put any new trains on the A-line? I think It would be great to ride new trains, especialy on the Rockaway branch.
....right.....no railfan window view ............right .......!!
The A has the R38s, if you are willing to wait. I waited 45 minutes for one and it was well worth it.
Don't be too picky or that first R-38 will be on the wrong branch of the A.
From what I've seen, most of the R32's and R38's on the A run the Lefferts branch.
They occasionally run down to Far Rock, but they're rare.
I don't think they're systematically assigned either way. Until I learn otherwise, I'm afraid I'll take your observation as anecdotal. (It could be just psychological -- if, say, you tend to wait for a railfan window for the Far Rockaway run, you're not likely to quickly forget the two hours that went by with every R-38 train going to Lefferts.)
IINM, the Rockaway Park A specials are (just about) always R-44's, as are the RP shuttles (I don't know about the midnight Lefferts shuttles).
The midnight Lefferts shuttles are both R38s and R44s.
I've ridden on R-38 A trains out to Far Rockaway. One of these days, I'll have to get a picture of the manhattan skyline from there. It seems a million miles away.
I did not know that there are some R-32's on the "A", as well as the "C".
None are assigned to the A, but they occasionally show up there, the same way R-32's have lately been popping up en masse on the R.
how many of em ' on the A train is there ?? - r 38s ??...
See the car assignment FAQ. As of August 1, 2001, 110 R-38's (11 trains) and 216 R-44's (27 trains) are assigned to the A. The remaining 40 R-38's (5 trains) are assigned to the C, along with 112 R-32's (14 trains).
That makes 150 R-38s. What about the rest of them? Spare factor, perhaps?
Suppose so. How many are there?
There are 196 R-38s (unless I'm forgetting about some recent incident).
David
So 23% of the R-38's are spares. Is that typical? It sure seems high.
I wonder if the C will be giving up some of its R-32's to Jamaica to support the V. (I doubt the R-38's themselves will go anywhere, although I suppose a few E's could run out of Pitkin.)
I haven't seen the December 16 car assignment yet. As for 23% of the R-38s being "spares," I can say that's not quite true. Some of them are held for SMS work or for other reasons that require them to be unavailable for a long period of time. If I had the previous car assignment in front of me, I could say how many that is, but I don't so I can't.
David
Did the R38's ever run on the Eastern Division. Back in the early 80's I thought I remember them vaguely, but they may have been unrebuilt R42's, I really didn't know different types back then, and wouldn't have said, "Hey this is a R38!"
AFAIK the R-38s have never run on the Eastern Division. I could be wrong, though.
They have spent nearly their entire lives either assigned to Jamaica or 207th St, which makes it impossible for them to ever run on the eastern division.
Thank god, I %$#$!^*^@% hate them.
So I get your reaction to the R38's are is that you dislike them. You haven't been very clear. hehehehe
Aw, come on....*L*
Great car, the R-38 is
:)
Dark, leaky, bouncing rolling pile of manure it is.
Hey, now....
:)
At least I get a nice railfan view along CPW. Given a choice between the R-38s and R-44s, I'll take the R-38s anytime.
Both are crap,thats why they are going to scrap heaven as soon as the R160 gets here...... and thank goodness for it ,too.....
Not necessarily true. The car crunch might keep all cars around longer than anticipated. The R38's and slants are the first on the scrapper's list anyway.
I've been reading here for quite some time about how the R-38 will be gone before the R-32. Fine. I love the R-32. But what about them makes them so indestructable? Especially concidering they are more similar to the R-38 than any other car on the system?
The R32 is made completley of stainless steel, as opposed to the newer 60' cars, which have bodies made of carbon steel. Stainless steel doesn't rust, so the R32's can run until metal fatigue or maintenance costs become too great. Which means they'll be here 10 to 15 years longer, and maybe longer.
Budd products always last the longest. No rusting with stainless steel.
The R38, R40, R42 contract could have gone to Budd if the contract was written to favor the construction method employed by Budd. I remember seeing Budd drawings for the R40 at 370 Jay Street in the new car design department.
Then as is now, the TA wanted to save a couple of bucks per car and had to follow the law in taking the lowest bid. In hindsight they should have kept the same specs but who knew then that the cars would still be needed at the turn of the century.
Hmmmm, Budd slants? Another missed opportunity.
Budd slants sounds like some new type of beer bottle :-)
"I remember seeing Budd drawings for the R40 at 370 Jay Street in the new car design department. "
Question-
Were they slants, or their own design?
Why would the TA stop using stainless steal? Hadn't they already seen rusting cars? Isn't that why they went to stainless for the R-32s in the first place?
It won't. Every rapid transit car built in the previous 25 years has been all stainless steel. Like wooden cars and steam propulsion, carbon steel is obsolete.
Your wait would be long, considering most of the A is now R44. Thank God.
I've been known to let as many as four or five R-44 trains go by before getting an R-38 consist. Once in a while, I'd get lucky and the first A train to pull in would be of the R-38 variety.
The A still isn't the same without the R-10s.
I rode one on the (Brighton) M circa 1981.
David
yes they have.How could I know? I RODE ONE ON THE M LINE YEARS AGO FROM FLUSHING AVE TO ATLANTIC AVE. Those days the 38's were the B mostly.As for the R 32,they were used over there when the R27/30's went out for rehab,mostly on the J.All clear? ok....
Mystery solved! It was the R32's. I didn't know car types back then, but I knew what I remembered riding was not an unrebuilt R42. I thought it was a R38, but it must have been R32's.
Could have been.'84,the R16 were in full force on the J and L lines untill about they retired[some ran in M service in their finall days]and the R32's arived when the 27/30 went to G.O. Believe me,the stay was short....
It was in Fall 1984 to be exact, when I started High School and took the M every day. It was definitly R32's then, that I remember. Because it had green-blue seats like the shape of the pinkish R27, R30 seats.
There are photos of R-32s on the M from that time period.
yes they have.How could I know? I RODE ONE ON THE M LINE YEARS AGO FROM FLUSHING AVE TO ATLANTIC AVE. Those days the 38's were the B mostly.As for the R 32,they were used over there when the R27/30's went out for rehab,mostly on the J.All clear? ok....
Now I'm confused again, maybe I did ride an "M" R38. I guess I'll never know, but it may have been possible according to what you are saying.
It should be noted that R-38 subway car numbers 4140-4149 were experimental air-conditioned models when the entire R-38 fleet was delivered. These 10 cars were not assigned to a particular line, but rather to all B-Division routes for crew familiarization and to show riders the comforts of air conditioned subways. Therefore, it was possible that these cars were seen on the BMT Eastern Division Lines.
Danny the bus addict
While CIYD barn was being renovated in the early 80's, long before the R32's underwent GOH, they were assigned to ENY for maintance. They ran on the M (pictures in the R32 section) and also on the LL. I actually did operate a few on the Canarsie line. I spotted a few on the J, never operated one tho because the line was (and still is) a high seniority line........As for the R38's (after being transfered from Queens they went to CI primarily for B service, later transfered to the A line) I did operate at least one as a conductor (11/79 to 2/81) on the M during the midday hours (Met to Stillwell). Yes, a 4 car train! But for the PM rush, the dispatcher added them wrong and many consists had 4 R38's and 4 R32's. Just after I left school car as a new rookie motorman, one day I was assigned to Stillwell M/QB/D. I deadheaded to CIYD to get a train for M service. At that time ok cars were so scarce that whenever a line needed a train not much attention was paid to sticking to published car assigments. I made up an R38 with M signs with the idea being it would be ran there if needed, and with the understanding I would take it to Stillwell Yard and change them again for PM QB service if not needed on the M. As soon as I got to the station, they needed that train for M service so away it went.
It seems that years ago, trains were switched between lines quite often. Today, trains seem to stay on one or two particular lines. Is that true they don't really travel too much?
Before the GOH and the current SMS programs, cars weren't maintained nearly as much as they are today, so today's assignments much more closely relate to the yard a car type is assigned to. Prior to this, it didn't matter much if an R27 B train which was assigned to CI occasionally ran as an AA or CC.
The AA drew all of its equipment from C.I. as it was non-rush version of the uptown B.
I wonder if the R-32s and the R-38s will live out their last days on the eastern division.
#3 West End Jeff
R38's will soon fill out their last days on the A & C. The Eastern Division will get R143 and R160. R32's will likely die where they were born - on the Southern Division (ie. diamond-Q train).
I hope the R-32s, at least some of them, close out their lives on the Southern Division, but given the politics involved in getting new trains onto the "right" lines, I have the feeling that unless the Broadway-B'klyn/Jamaica Ave. line is next up on the B Divsion for CTBC after the Canarsie line, the attitude will be that the Eastern Division got the R-143s, so lets put the R-160s on the more heavily used lines like the E, F, N, Q and R and move the R-32s over to the J/M/Z.
They plan to get enough R160's in 4 car sets to completely take over the Eastern Divsion with the R143. OPTO is the motivation, not CBTC.
The difference between what's on the A, C, E, F and R lines now compared to the R-160s is nowhere near the visual difference (let alone the AC difference) between the R-40Ms and R-42s and the R-1/4s and Standards that they replaced back in the late 1960s and early 70s. But by the middle to end of the decade when the R-160s are scheduled to arrive, politics could play a role in splitting the fleet among several lines to get the maximum PR boost, the same as was done with the R-40M/R-42s.
Eastern Division OTPO could be handled with just some of the R-160s, the same way the 5 got its 10 R-62s just for OTPO on the Dyer shuttle, but kept the Redbirds for most of the other train consists. If the MTA decides that, for example, they want some R-160s for the A and C fleets at 207th or the E/F/R/V fleet out in Jamaica because some pols want happy riders/voters in Queens and on the west side of Manhattan, then the Pitkin or Jamiaca R-32s could go to East New York to fill out the remainder of the fleet. But if there are plans to extend CTBC to the other Eastern Division lines within the projected remaining lifespan of the R-32s, then the R-143s and R-160s would have to make up all of the Eastern Division fleet.
I don't see the political pressure to get new cars anymore. Before the 1990's, new cars meant no grafitti, air conditioning, higher reliability and a quieter ride. With all cars now sporting these benefits, who really prefers an R143 over an R42?
I've noticed over the past year or two one or two posts from people stating basically that they can't wait until those #@$##$%$#^$#^ Redbirds are removed from service and the new trains could be put on their lines, so the "new train, old train" complaints live on.
Now, while the visual difference between an R-160 and an R-40M and R-42 railcar are far less than that between an R-36 `bird and an R-142A on the Pelham Bay line, even non-railfans can tell the difference between a 32-year-old R-42 and a 14-year-old R-68, and they'll be able to tell the difference between a Slant 40 and an R-143 on the L. And a majority of subway riders think their line deserves the newest trains.
Going by that, the longest routes and/or the ones with the highest passenger loads are going to be the ones the politicians will hear the biggest shouts about from people demanding the newest trains, because they serve the most voters.
If there are enough R-160s to fill the Eastern Division with a decent number left over for the main Manhattan trunk lines, it may not be a problem. But I would be stunned if the MTA allowed two straight B Division train orders to never be seen by the people north of 14th Street.
I believe that as they rebuilt some of the classes of cars, your average passenger thought they were new trains. Do you think that as the R42's, for example, were rebuilt and replaced the R27's on the Eastern Division, most people noticed they were the same "junky" (meaning dirty, grafitti, etc) trains they were riding in the past? The NYCTA got everyone believing they had "new" trains. I can gaurantee that your average subway rider would not have said, "Hey, that's a rebuilt R42 pulling into the station." More likely they said, "Look at the nice new train we are on" The PR worked for even the rebuilt cars.
I understand that even T/Os clamored to operate rebuilt trains.
Yup, nothing like a clean train that won't fall apart every 3 days.
The GOH'd R38's caused a sensation in mid 1987 when they first appeared. They really did look absolutley new.
That's true. The GOH R42 cars were so much different looking, especially on the inside, that they almost screamed NEW. In fact, they looked like larger R62's at first glance.
From what I've understood[concerning the R160's]these cars are due to replace the 40/40m/42 cars on all Eastern Div. lines.All 4 car sets will go there,and the rest[5 car sets]would go to the A and C lines over at Pitkin yard.[got this from the MTA proposal posted on there site].So the Eastern Division will have all new rail cars for the first time since the R16 SHOWED IT GRUESOME head over there. About time.......
Well, some R42's were put in on the eastern division when they were brand new too.
But in 1955, the R16 made up only 1/3rd of their equipment allotment.
The Canarsie & Myrtle routes hardly ever got them, and the Brooklyn local got only the R16's in excess to Jamaica route's requirement.
Looks like an attempt was made to spruce up the Jamaica line, which ultimately failed, given that it was hacked to pieces in the 70's and 80's.
Besides, in my lifetime the J has gotten priority over the M and L lots of times. The J received the overhauled R2730 redbirds 18 months before the M and almost a year before the L, and the GOH'd R42's appeared on the J 6 to 9 months before either the M or L. When the redbirds first appeared in 1985, the R16's it replaced went to the M (with horrific consequences for that line's riders) and the L was the last eastern division line to use them, as late as 1991.
The Canarsie line has always been the last stop before the junkyard.
(Along with the Franklin and Culver shuttles.}
I see you don't think very highly of the R-143. (Nor of the R-42, which happens to be among my favorites.)
Actually-
I think the Jamaica line is...
R-16's (both yours and my favorite car) didn't end their careers on the Canarsie Line, they ended them an the Jamaica line.
Same with the R-6-9's, I'm pretty sure. And the BMT Standards.
The BMT standards made their last stand on the M in August of 1969. The last revenue R-7/9 trip was on a put-in J train on March 31, 1977.
Where did the last red R27-R30's train last run. Was it an Eastern division line?
Cline.....
Their last stand was on the C, I believe.
I believe the R27/30s ran their last on the 'C' sometime in late 1992. The last time I saw one on the Eastern Divison was on the 'L' in July 1990, although other posters have reported seeing them there and on Franklin well into 1991.
They were supposedly banned from the Jamaica lines in favor of Mod 40s and 42s when Archer opened, but the first time I went into Jamaica Center, the Friday after the connection opened (was in London riding the Tube on Opening Day), the only 'J' in the terminal was a 27/30 with red exterior and the old pink seats. Every Jamaica el train I've seen since has been Mods and 42s.
R30's were plentiful in the early days of the Archer Ave. connecor opening. I remember seeing "Z" trains signed up with only a brown circle Z bullet, with no writing, as the ones marked J always said "Nassau St. Express". They were gone by March of 1989. I saw R30's on the L in April of 1991.
For a bit AFTER Parsons Archer opened, there were still some R-27-30's on BOTH the J and Z trains (but only briefly). On that snowy December 12,1989, I recall in the AM rush hour riding a J EASTBOUND to see the Manhattan bound J and Z trains, and I can HONESTLY say I ONLY saw 2 Z trains coming into the city!!!!! They were R-27's and there was a lone round circular Z on the side rollsign. I understand that snowy morning that lots of trains had door problems in the yard due to the freezing. That same Am rush hour, the F ran as a Hillside local due to delays in R service getting to 179-Hillside. AND a man had a heartattack on a southbound #5 train. Hellish morning!!! Tony
C train, March 1993.
Untrue. The R16 ended it's life on the M line. Except for a rare instance, the R16 was gone on the J by the fall of 1986. In their final months, several R16's were used as rush hour put-ins on the B and R lines as well.
The R16s probably have the strangest history of any equipment. I remember seeing them plenty on the 'EE' and 'GG' from 1970 through the September 1976 service changes- and even right after that, I saw one on the 'N' on its new routing.
In early 1977 after the R9s were retired, the 16s started to become more frequent on the 'LL', while the other Eastern Division lines were mostly 30s, with the rare 42 thrown in (much more often on the 'M' than the 'J') for A/C relief. Then the 16s seemed to disappear altogether until I found them again on the 'J' and 'L' around 1983 or '84. I was at college upstate from September 1978 through December 1981, so probably missed a lot of equipment shifts during that time.
It was only when browsing the Rolling Stock pages of this site that I discovered the R16 ran on the 'B' around 1976(?). At that time, adolesence and the pressures therein were severely cutting into my railfanning; I think I may have gone the whole summer of '76 without riding the subway at all!!
The last R16 I rode was on the 'L' in October 1986, although a month later I saw one passing by overhead on 31st Street in Astoria. I was sure I was either hallucinating or the train was out of service, because the throught of an R16 on the 'R' was just too absurd.
Someone on this board, possibly Chris, verified that I was not seeing things.
No you weren't
I rode several R16 R trains to Astoria in late 1986, a few on the B (rerouted B'way version) as well as the usual M and L.
One R16 B train always left Astoria at 8:10 every morning. I'd ride it to CI where the train would go OOS.
Was it 8 or 10 cars ?
I don't remember. I'd assume 10. 8 cars would be too short for the B.
All "B" trains ran at a maximum of 8 cars until 1985. Tony
Nope, I saw plenty of 10 car B's at that time. And in 1986, it was always 10 car.
Wasn't that when B's alternated 57th and 168th ? Maybe one was 8, the other 10.
I rode both, and all were 10.
It went o/s service because the STL B dispatcher didn't want to press his luck! Alleluia! We got a half trip out of it! Now just maybe we'll lay it up, and just maybe we'll get another 1/2 trip out of it for the PM rush!
Did you ever operate that train? If so, we may have met, a looooonnng time ago, as I had a rather long discussion with a motorman on that train, asking the usual dumb questions an ignorant train buff kid would.
The only lines I'ver operated R16's was on the J/L/M.
Did R-16s ever run on The Concourse IND?
Peace,
ANDEE
Hmm...
I don't know, but I seriously doubt it.
I never saw it on the CC or D, and I rode those trains a whole lot between 1970 and 1990.
Except for the G and AA, and a few times on the A itself, it really was more of a BMT lines car, in my opinion...even when it ran on former IND lines, they were lines like the F and B, which are basically BMT in Brooklyn.
Anyway, now you've got me super curious.
Here's a list of the lines I KNOW it ran on, at one time or another:
A, AA, B, EE, F, GG, J and all its subsets (QJ, JJ, RJ), LL, M, N, QT,and TT, as well as the Culver Shuttle.
Can anyone name any I probably missed?
RR:
QB:
Shucks-
:)
I can't believe I missed the RR and QB
I actually knew those *L*
OK-
back to the question
You like the R-16, was it ever on either of the Concourse (Bronx) Lines- CC or D??
I highly doubt it.
So do I, although if the R-16 was ever based out of Coney Island Yard, it's possible...I don't think it was ever based out of Concourse Yard.
The R16 basically ran on the eastern division, except from 1968 to 1976 when it was assigned to Jamaica. Some made it to the AA and B line afterwards, so this would be the only time it might have made a run or two on the D.
Then they would have had to remake the consist to be 10 cars. AA & B were 8 in those days.
I can't account to anything before September 1985, but I never ever rode or saw an 8 car B train from that day on, either to 168th St or 57th St.
R16 was seen in plenty on the "RR" in 1969, right before the shift to Jamaica Yard, also I have seen them on the "E" during the fill-ins for the R46.
wayne
Franklin Shuttle?
I would think so....
Actually, definately...
Look in the R-16 pictures page on this website, there's a picture from 1969 at Prospect Park Station.
Yup:
1976:
1969:
There are more, but this page would take too long too load if i attached them.
Doubtful, although some may have operated on it in the 1970's on the D line.
Man, I missed out on more than I thought. I only saw the R-16s on the Eastern Division, but then I rode on them only twice, 19 years apart. My subway riding was near zero during most of the 70s; it wasn't until 1977 that I started coming down to the city from Connecticut periodically and resumed railfanning.
Yep, I remember it well.
At least they'll finish there working days where they started.
#3 West End Jeff
At least they'll finish their working days where they started.
#3 West End Jeff
They will have gone full circle, so to speak, if that turns out to be the case.
Lets hope they do go full circle.
#3 West End Jeff
Here's a wacky idea I proposed a year ago:
Swap the R42's in ENY with the R32's in Jamaica. With their stainless steel bodies, the R32's would be the more preferable choice to operate on the mostly above-ground lines of the eastern division. The R42's, and as many R40M's as need be, can run their remaining days in safety on the entirely underground routes of the E, R, and V lines. Perhaps they might even last longer before they completely fall apart.
In addition, make the C line entirely of R38's, for exactly the same reason.
Great partial idea. They are stored OUTSIDE!
avid
But they'd be sheltered when in service. And many are stored underground on the Hillside Ave express tracks.
Agreed. That would be a plus for their life extension.
avid
The TA does not want to waste their masterpiece R32's on the lowly Eastern Division. The only way an R38 will get there again if they take my proposal (among others) and through route the C to Fresh Pond.
Is the R32 a markedly more reliable car than the R42? If not, I think Queens riders would prefer the more asthetically pleasing R42.
Both cars are old anyway.
The most recent MDBF figures I have handy are from July 2001:
R-32: 102,851
R-42: 106,129
From June 2001:
R-32: 122,062
R-42: 98,955
12-month moving average, August 2000-July 2001:
R-32: 104,575
R-42: 110,788
Not much difference in my book.
David
Then why the preference for the R32's on Queens Blvd?
It's certainly got nothing to do with public opinion. It's got more to do with maintenance issues (keeping the number of car classes at a given shop at a minimum, etc.). Perhaps "Train Dude" or someone else in Car Equipment can and will elaborate.
David
Probably becuase the R32 is all stainless and the St Louis cars are more apt to leak. The R32/38 also have more comfortable seats.
The R/32-38s seem to have a little more interior space. This gives a smidgen of more seating room at the three seating locations between the doors on each side. This is very evident when one compares the R/32-38s to the R/40-40Ms. The R/42s may be on par with the R/32-38s.
I'll have to have a looksee. The R/42s were an attempt to make up for the esthetic designs theft of interior space. Perhaps some devotee of those styles could aid with dementional input.
avid
The R-32s have narrower doorways than the R-42s, but 6 more seats (50 vs. 44).
David
I always thought the reduced seating was caused by the lose of room due to the original Slant R/40 configuration and subsequent floor plans of the r/40M and r/42s.
I hadn't realized a door demension difference. What is the difference, if you have it handy?
avid
46" on cars through R-38, 50" R-40 to R-68A.
David
Brighton riders complained when the R-32s made their debut in 1964 that there were fewer seats than on the crowd-swallowing Triplexes.
Hey I'm with you on through-routing the C to Metropolitan through the Chrystie Street connection.
In 1970 and 1971, and even on into 1972 I saw quite a few R32 in service on the "QJ". It seemed like these were the "extra" "QJ" cars, when they were pulled off the "QJ", they were replaced by R-7a and R-9s.
wayne
While I can't say for certain that no R38 ever ran on the eastern division since their delivery in 1966, I never have seen one in the nearly 25 years of memory I have riding the J train. The R38 was always an "IND" car to me, as much as the R30 was a "BMT" car.
So it probably was unrebuilt R42's. I didn't pay much attention to the type of cars back then, although I do remember the R16's, even if I didn't know what type of car they were at the time. I hated them and they were so filthy. Now I wish I could ride one of them again!
Ditto. I miss those old beasts too. Unrebuilt R42's were not unusual sights on the J line in the early 1980's.
Right...
as an 80's J rider, I remember the unrebuilt 42's
I remember the J was in a black circle on the rollsign
I always pestered my father on why the R16's said "JJ" or "QJ", as they never had a simple single J on their rollsigns.
They never did replace those multicolored roller curtains on the R-16s. I rode on them for the last (and second) time in October of 1986 on the M, and sure enough, the M was light blue.
hell, if you hunted thru those rollsigns (you could turn them by hand), which I used to do on long J rides...
you could see all KINDS of lines represented...all in the colors of the 67-68 map
I used to LOVE doing that :)
They used the orange JJ signs on the R-16s towards the end of their careers. Chances are people got the drift (knock on wood).
You know....
I don't think there WAS a "J" on those rollsigns..
if there was it certainly wasn't a brown J
I think it had RJ JJ QJ and that's it
Only a black QJ and an orange JJ. Until I found this site, I never knew what the real JJ route was.
The signs were put in too late for the short lived lines like the NX, RJ, or MJ.
What was the orange JJ - 168th st to 57th ST?
The JJ ran to Canal Street from 168th Street and from Canarsie.
So the Orang edid not mean 6th Ave, it was the old route colors like the light blue M, etc?
Exactly. Before 1979 the colors meant nothing other than to distinguish them from each other. The QB was red and the RR was dark green, but neither was an IRT line....LOL.
Yes, the same as the old #14 route, replaced by the KK on 7/1/68.
From the 1967 TA map, post-Chrystie St:
AM rush hours: 168th St. - Canal St. Skip-stop along Jamaica Ave.
PM rush hours: Canal St - Crescent St. or Atlantic Ave. or Rockaway Parkway. All stops.
All other times: 168th St. - Broad St.
It does appear that the QJ was always called the "QJ", no matter what time it ran, even if it dodn't go south of Broad St, from 1968 to the end of 1972. Which makes absolutley no sense ...
That wasn't true initially. The JJ ran rush hours, and as a QJ replacment when terminating at Broad Street. I remember being at 168th 7-8pm seeing them crank QJ and Brighton Beach (later C.I.) signs to be JJ and Broad Street, also cutting 2 cars to make 6 cars. It also got interesting when RJ's were also coming in. If it was an R16, it went out of service; if an R27, they either went out of service or became JJ.
At first, the QJ was a weekday 6 AM to 8 PM service. On July 1, 1968, it became a 24/7 operation. On weekdays, it ran initially to Brighton Beach, then beginning on August 19, 1968, to Coney Island. During evenings, nights, and weekends, all QJ service ended at Broad St. It was renamed the J and permanently cut back to Broad St. in early 1973.
The (JJ) was orange back before 1979 when the route colors had nothing to do with the avenue in Manhattan it operated on. It was actually sort of the opposite of that; they went out of their way to make sure that different routes along the same line were in different colors. Thus the "Spaghetti Map", one of the most confusing maps I've ever seen.
:-) Andrew
Now it makes more sense. And by the way that WAS the most confusing map!
The map was probably not the ony thing that was confusing back then. How did the T/O get their assignments each day? How were the subway cars assigned to their lines? And how did the MTA have enough cars to run all those different services?
Not much has changed as to T/O's getting their assignments. In those days they just sat around a lot in the crew room if your trip was dropped due to car shortage. I never got dropped because us rookies needed the practice.
But the "JJ" never existed past 1968. After that, the QJ was black, as was the single letter J after 1972. The R16 never had a single letter J, so they used the orange JJ. Which always confused me as a child, since I knew the JJ was different from the regular J, but never knew how until I discovered this site.
In retrospect, they could have spliced in a QJ sign on the R-16 roller curtains. By the time those multicolored curtains started to appear on rolling stock, the JJ had already ceased to exist.
One thing I found odd: very, very few R-27/30s got those multicolored roller curtains. I know I never saw one with them. They kept the route and destination configuration on their end bulkheads.
All the R38's and a lot of R32's got them as well, but they were removed in the late 1970's. Except for those 10 experimental AC R38's, which kept them through the 1980's.
I remember seeing those multicolored curtains on the R-32s as late as 1980, when I left the East Coast for Colorado. There was one RR train of R-32s which had original route and destination curtains on the bulkheads. Frankly, I always had a gut feeling the R-32s and R-38s would get bulkhead route and destination curtains once again eventually, and they did.
The R16 has signs A thru HH and 10 thru 16, so they had to get new signs right away, but a few got QJ cut into their old sign. The R16 displayed JJ right up to the end. I rode one in January 1987.
The R27/30 had all alpha signs to begin with, and very quickly were given splices for QJ and RJ, which sufficed. The R27 to 38 got the BB route sign patched with a B so thay it would read B with 6th AVenue Local.
There initially was no "M" sign, so black tape was used over "MM" to just show 1 M. Tony
There were in the R27-30 and R32's, from the day they first went into service.
True. The pre-1967 Brighton-Nassau service used equipment from the Q train pool and unofficially designated M. Eastern Division routes were at the time officially non-designated, but in the rarity that a Myrtle-Nassau got an R16, it was marked 10.
<<<"The R16 has signs A thru HH and 10 thru 16, so they had to get new signs right away, but a few got QJ cut into their old sign. The R16 displayed JJ right up to the end. I rode one in January 1987.">>>
From the pics I've seen (I really don't remember the 16s- never used the Eastern Division back then), the R16s got the early color signs- rather than a "bullet" with the letter inside, the whole curtain was the route color, and a white circle around the letter in question.
even a few R-32 were like that, and certainly the R-38's had those.
From the pics I've seen (I really don't remember the 16s- never used the Eastern Division back then), the R16s got the early color signs- rather than a "bullet" with the letter inside, the whole curtain was the route color, and a white circle around the letter in question.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those were the replacement rollsigns for the R-16 which were put in the cars after the Chrystie Street Line opened. Each line had a different color. They had readings for
A-dark blue
AA-violet
B-black
CC-green
D-orange
E-light blue
EE-orange
F-violet
GG-green
HH-red
JJ-orange
KK-dark blue (6 Av)
LL-black
M-light blue
MM-green
N-yellow or buff
QB-red
QJ-black
RR-green (Bway)
RR-green (Nassau)
TT-dark blue
S-white
SS-dark green
Note that they were installed after the 6 Avenue Line was extended to 57 Street (July 68) and did not have NX and RJ readings but did retain the TT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The AA and F color isn't violet...it's magenta
violet is a pale purple.
Here's a good pic of what they looked like. It's an R16 on the M route at a Brighton local stop in 1976. Notice that the bulkhead route bullet was circled, but the entire sign was the color of that particular route. You'll also notice that the side route signs were COMPLETELY made up of the color of that route, with white lettering in it (this one says M Express via Nassau St):
Till this pic, I never knew of the full-color side signs. Thanks.
They were the only cars to have this style of side sign.
I saw 10 R38's which had them in 1987. They were definatley the 10 experimental AC ones, as they were pre-GOH and had AC, something I took notice of.
They were on the K line, but had their side signs set to "KK 6th Ave Local" as opposed to the confusing but proper AA sign.
The R16 curtain roll sign DID have "QJ". They started using the orange "JJ" again once they dropped the "Q" and went with just the single "J".
wayne
I can understand when the used EE or JJ, or CC, but what was the point when they used mixed letters like QJ or MJ, etc. I don't get it.
The QJ was a rush hour line added to speed service on the J line. As for the MJ, that was the Myrtle avenue el. What was confusing was the map that showed all service all hours of day.
Mixed letters were for inter-divsional BMT routes (southern & eastern division). QJ was Brighton Local and Jamaica Express. RJ was 4th Avenue Local and Jamaica Express. MJ was the Myrtle local that ran south of Broadway onto a non-dual-contract compliant el to Jay Street.
When the M was extended onto the Sea Beach line 9/11 to 10/27, it could have been called NM, and the J the RJ. The "Bankers" RR trains that ran to Chambers Street in the 1980's were marked "S" but called RJ by some operating people and token clerks.
Chicago's CTA flirted with this scheme around 1980. Today's Blue line was called CM and DM (Congress-Milwaukee and Douglas-Milwaukee).
I wish the NX Super Sea Beach Express still existed.
Here are some signs I picked up on eBay recently:
how do you add a picture?
You need to upload it to a webserver somewhere, then add a link here like this:
< img src= " http://www.yourwebserver.com/yourimage.jpg " >
thanks
Cool.
here is a rollsign i got on ebay recently
< img src= " http://i10.yimg.com/10/9086bf81/g/8b697fa8.jpg " >
You need to remove the "spaces" from the code for it to work.
Wow!! I didn't think the TA actually made signs like that for those lines, especially the MJ. I thought the MJ designation only appeared on maps....
Is there any chance soembody's got a sky-blue number "8" sign from the Third Avenue El?
I think that sign was probably only put up at either Metropolitan Ave or Wykoff Ave, as most other Myrtle Ave. line stops had no signs, certainly none below Broadway. If so, it's a rare bird indeed.
Yes some stations had these signs, but there were no MJ indications on the trains themself.
I remember the Nassau St. RR specials in the 1980's and they were never maked "S". They were always marked "RR" via Nassau (if they were R16 or R2730) or just RR if they were R42.
Resigning the R16 was a 2-step process. In 1967-8, a few of the original route signs got the splice for QJ, etc. Others got white cardstock signs plastered on the ends for "RR" and "95 STREET" on the south side sign. Why the latter was done is beyond me. The rolls could display "95th St Ft Hmltn".
Then both end signs and side route signs were ripped out, and 1967-era route rollers were placed in the destination window leaving no destination sign as such on the ends.
Chris: The JJ (orange) was only used from November 1967 to July 1968.
JJ was originally intended to replace the #15 Jamaica Lcl whereas the J would have replaced the #15 Jamaica Exp. However the TA elected to use the JJ for a about a six month period to cover both the rush hour Broadway-Brooklyn Lcl service (formerly the #14) and the late evening and weekend 168 St-Broad St Lcl service (formerly the #15).
The QJ ran between 168 St and Brighton Beach during this period and used the color black. It was supplemented by the RJ between 168 St and 95 St-4 Av and used the color red.
Effective July 1,1968 when the 57 St-6 Av Station openned the following changes were made. The JJ was discontinued to be replaced by the KK 6 Avenue-Broadway Bkyln Lcl between 57 St-6 Av and 168 St.
This line used the light blue color.
The QJ was now used to cover both the 168 St-Brighton service and the 168 St-Broad St service.
The RJ was discontinued and replaced by a branch of the RR between Chambers St and 95 St using the dark green color.
The current system of color-coding lines according to their mainline of operation did not come into effect until the Diamond Jubilee Edition of the subway map was issued in the summer of 1979.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Did anybody ever mention what the "MM" was actually going to be? I have seen it on R16 and R32 bulkhead rolls.
I think the "KK" was same color as the "A".
wayne
Wayne: The MM was supposed to run between 57/6 and Metropolitan Av on the Myrtle Avenue Line. The color was to be light blue as oppossed to the dark blue of the KK. Although it never ran as such 4 KK trains did cover the route starting on July 1,1968. They left 57/6 between 726am and 809am and made all local stops to Metropolitan after whcih they laid up in the Fresh Pond Yard.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That time period brings back memories of the "NX". Someone once told me that "NX" stood for "Noble Experiment".
Peppertree: Please note my correction to this post. The MM color would have been green,not light blue.
Your right the NX did use the light blue color. I remember riding an R-27 which carried a large blue disk with "NX" on it on a chain accross the front of the train.
The NX was shortlived but was a great treat for those of us who never rode the BMT #7 Franklin-Nassau on the Sea Beach express tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Mr. Greller's book even has a picture of an R16, dated 1986 (must have been near the end) signed with the orange "JJ". I gues they never did update those signs.
No, they never did, I can testify to that.....
I just assumed at the time, that the JJ was from the double letter times, and as to the color, I just figured it was left over from the "spaghetti map"
Besides, the J was never an express, as far as i could tell...even the skip-stop isn't really an express, they still went thru the stations, just didn't stop...besides, skip stop was still pretty slow.
When the QJ was eliminated in 1973, the line was still a rush hour express from Eastern Parkway to Marcy Ave, which is probably why it was renamed J, not JJ.
I also remember seeing R-16s on the J sporting the orange JJ signs in the mid-80s.
That's because there wasn't a "J" on those R-16 rollsigns.
Actually, the "JJ" ran accordingly:
AM rush hrs 168-Jamaica to Canal St via. Skip Stop along Jamaica Av and Bway Bklyn local.
PM rush hours Canal Street to either Crescent St, Atlantic Ave or Canarsie via. local.
All other times local from 168-Jamaica to Broad Street.
This was taken over by the QJ and KK in July 1968. Tony
There was no RJ. There was, however a green "MM" as well as the aforementioned orange "JJ".
wayne
I did too. I once even got yelled at by a conductor on an M at 9th Ave for doing that. I told him I was merely changing the "Bay Parkway" to 9th Ave. He laughed and said it was OK, that he'd finish the job.
I used to love those, because they had routes I never heard of at the time. KK? EE? TT? MM? (never existed).
MM was on a green background but never used except as an improper sign on an M train. BTW: when the R16's were on the M during their dying days, every so often I would see a functioning end sign with crank with clear unpainted outer glass. So I (and another motorman who is now a TSS) would crank up a "10 Myrtle Ave" with the customary M on the other side!
Pretty cool. It must have been interesting. I was too young at the time to notice that it was "wrong". But I do remember seeing the Light Blue M and the Green MM on trains. I knew something was different, even then, but didn't understand the whole concept of why.
What was the green MM...?
I remember seeing it on that crazy rollsign :)
But I don't remember if it said Nassau St Exp or L'c'l
MM was planned to go via the Chrystie connector to 6th Av with the KK/K. It wasn't a Nassau St line, nor did it ever run.
Sixth Ave/Broadway/Mytrle. It never ran.
The R-7/9 Eastern Division side route curtains had an MM sign.
I wonder if any of those original R-16 number route curtains were salvaged.
i never seen them on the Eastern division. in fact only place i have ever seen them besides the C is on the E. they have been on the E last time there was the E to Euclid and the WTC E to euclid again so. but the R32s were on the J tho when R was suspended
Safety
Attentiveness
Train control
ARE U ACCEPTING THE PROPER LINEUP?
Maybe they were R32's on the Eastern division I was thinking of. Did they run there. This may be my mystery solved.
Did the R38's ever run on the Eastern Division. Back in the early 80's I thought I remember them vaguely, but they may have been unrebuilt R42's
It occurs to me that the side exteriors of these cars are somehwat similar. If not for totally different rollsigns, one might be mistaken for the other. I think they're sort of a different shape, though. Of course, the front and rear ends look nothing alike.
:-) Andrew
The sides of the R42's bulge out a bit while the R38's are straight. The front end of the R42's looks kinda like the front end of the R44's and 46's.
The R38's seem like a cross between The R42's and the R27-R30's. The seats were the same shape as the R27-30's, but the same color as the R42's. Although at quick glance head on, they did look a little like the R44-46's, even if just for a second.
Considering the car crunch, how can 46 R38's be considered "spares"? That seems excessive to me.
I located the July 22, 2001 car assignment sheet. Of the total of 196 cars, 158 cars wee listed as "available." The rest? 38 "unavailable" and 8 "spares." "Unavailable" means that the cars are undergoing modification or SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System, meaning component upgrade/replacement), being inspected, on long-term hold, or pending scrap (none of the R-38s are being held pending scrap as far as I am aware). 8 out of 158 is a "spare" ratio of 5.1%.
David
Of the total of 196 cars, 158 cars wee listed as "available." The rest? 38 "unavailable" and 8 "spares."
158 + 38 + 8 = 204 not 196.
Perhaps, you meant that of the 158, 150 were operated in maximum service (110 on the "A" and 40 on the "C") and 8 were spares?
8 out of 158 is a "spare" ratio of 5.1%
The National Transportation Database uses a different definition for spares ratio. According to the 1999 data, there are 5768 rail vehicles of which 4897 are operated in maximum service. This represents a spare factor of:
100 x (5768 - 4897)/4897 = 18%.
Applying this formula to the R38's results in a spare factor of 31%.
It would appear that at that time the R38 fleet was underperforming availability-wise.
Correct - I meant 150 in service, plus 8 spares, plus 38 out of service for various reasons. As to differing definitions of spare ratios, I don't define 'em, I just report 'em.
David
....right.....and the MTA has railfans as their top concern when purchasing subway cars..............right.......!! :-) hehehe
....U......R........right ...bout' ...dat'........!!
he he ?
They should, IMO. If only...
Not for a while. The forthcoming R143s are being assigned to the L and M lines. It's possible that under the next B-Division car order, the R160s, some may go to the A to replace the R38s currently running there.
The M & L lines are getting new trains!?!?! Not hand-me-downs(not necessarily bad for railfans) I'm shocked.
By the way, where did the R42's originaly run, before being rebuilt for the Eastern division. Before they ran there I remember R16, R27, R30 (I think - I can't tell the difference b/t R27 & R30), and an occasional unrebuilt R40 slant or R42. They all got bumped as the R42's were rebuilt (and some rebuilt R40) Where were they originaly?
According to all the R42 photos from 1969-71 that I've seen, it looks like they ran everywhere. There's pictures of them on 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue, Broadway, the Eastern Division, Astoria, Brighton, Canarsie and Sea Beach. I guess with all the mixed trains that ran then, the R42 had no one assigned yard when they were new.
The R-42s were among the first air-conditioned NYCT(A) subway cars. As such, a determination was made that they should run all over the system (mixed, if necessary, with other postwar R-type cars) so that riders of all BMT/IND lines could have a chance to ride in comfort in the summer. That's why some of the pictures on this site (from the early 1970s, mostly) show trains of R-42s mixed with just about everything the BMT/IND had to offer from the R-10 up.
David
They really ran with the R-10s? I only remember them mixed with R-32s, R-38s, and R-40s (both versions).
The MTA in the late 60s and 70s put all the air con cars when new on the E and F Lines the first couple years, and then when the 44 and 46s came,the E & F got those and the 42s were scattered.
Once again, making it's bi-annual appearance on the SubTalk message board for those who can't believe the unbelievable, it's the photo of the B Division's "Consist From Hell," available elsewhere at Dave's website.
This lashup was short lived because of the air dooes on the R-10s and the non air doors on the R-42s. They worked but, they were not in sync with each other.
Bill "Newkirk"
I always wondered about when the door locks would release on the R-10s and when their doors would actaully open relative to the R-42 door controls. It's safe to assume the doors wouldn't open together but they probably closed simultaneously.
Wery strange to see a mix like that.
By the way, if looks could kill the photographer. I can hear the guy in the window, "What the f*** are you taking my picture!"
A John Gotti associate. Don't forget, Gotti's fishing club is based out there in Ozone Park!
Thank goodness I never, ever saw such a lashup. I would have had a stroke. It was bad enough seeing R-32s and R-42s intermixed on D trains.
Actually, I remember the locomotive-hauled trains that were on the New Haven well into the 1960s. They would mix cars of every possible vintage.
I can remember taking trips to Coney Island in the early 70's when R-42's would be linked to R-27's and R-30's. Naturally, when trying to escape the brutal summer heat, everyone would crowd into the comfy R-42's. The AC in those cars, when new, was so frigid, you could hang meat in there.
From as far as I can remember (the 80's), the D line had a lot of R42's with doors that were originally orange that were re-painted blue, just before they were refurbished. The AC still worked in some of these R-42 trains. A few ran on the M and QB (later Q lines) but most were D trains. The slant R-40's were usually B trains, (though once in a while you'd find one on the D).
No. 38's and 44's (and one or two 32's) will be working on the A for quite a while longer..
People will associate the R-44s with the A in the same way the R-10s are associated with the A, if it hasn't happened already.
Which people? I doubt the average subway commuter can tell the A's R-44's apart from the E's R-46's.
Last time I was in White Plains was when there was that Bee Lines strike. That was a long time ago. Today I returned to White Plains. Going I took the 10:41am train to Brewster North that ran express to Scarsdale, then local stops (stopping at 125th of course). An M-1 of course. I like the windows on the MNRR M-1's they open at the top, whereas LIRR's have no way to open them. The ride was pretty fast, they take those curves on the Harlem branch pretty fast. The lights seem to flicker a little more, perhaps because of MNRR's under-running 3rd rail system.
Got off at White Plains and spent time in both the Galeria and Westchester Malls. They are two very different malls. The Galleria is more budget and midscale whereas the Westchester is upscale. Westchester is a nicer mall to walk around but the only stuff I bought today was in Galleria. Both malls weren't too busy, I would say Galleria may have been a bit busier tho.
White Plains is pretty pedestrian friendly I guess because it is a City. Lots of 10 and 20 story office buildings too. I sure wish Glen Cove would've been more like White Plains but Oh well.
Going back I took the 4:25pm express train to GCT stopping only at Fordham and 125th. It arrived on the GCT-bound track, while the northbound train was stopping at the S/B track. That was wierd, MNRR seems to like to change all the tracks around, there are no regular eastbound or westbound tracks. It was very fast. Real aggressive engineer around those curves, must've been going close to 80mph in some spots. Then another nice stretch in the Bronx. The MNRR M-1's seem to stop very quickly. We pull into a station at full speed and stop, LIRR usuallu brakes a train length ahead of the station. Generally the MNRR M-1's are in much better shape and give a smoother ride than their LIRR counterparts.
Got to GCT and got a regular level (2 digit) track. On the train going to White Plains my train was on 114, on the lower level. GCT is so huge, it takes 6 minutes just for the trains to negotiate all the switches coming and going from GCT. What a complex. I wonder where I could get a track map. Looking out from the front window all you can see is a maze of tracks.
Also saw a few Genesis hauled trains, I sure wish we had the Genesis engines instead of the unreliable DE/DM's.
So which is better? Over-running or under-running 3rd rail? NYCT and LIRR use over-running 3rd rail, which has a wooden or synthetic 3rd rail cover for protection. The MNRR is different though and uses under-running, which does not use covers since it is clamped on the top. As far as reliability in bad weather, which is better?
Well, think! Rain cannot loop around and up, so therefore it can't make the 3rd rail on the MNRR rust away. I'm not sure about this, but I think you can touch the top of the rail on the MNRR and be safe...Don't hold me to it, but if it's true, safety is #1.
You reminded me of an old teacher I had. He said he and his friends would do this on the subway. One guy would hop on the 3rd rail, careful to make sure both feet landed on top. (You can do this as long as nothing is touching the floor.) Another guy would stand on the trackbed. They would almost touch fingers, and this guy claimed it formed an electric arc between the fingers. I do not know if he was just pulling my leg. However, this guy was missing 3 finger tips from a fire cracker accident when he was a kid, so who knows. He was really a teacher. Scary, huh? Nice role model for kids. No wonder I grew up insane. ;)
Are you sure it was a firecracker accident? :-)
I think he was pulling your leg. The story is extremely far-fetched
How did you communicate with your teacher?
Arti
This teacher was really doing the kids in his class a big favour by telling them how to do that. I'm surprised that anybody would even try jumping on top of a live third rail, one wrong move, you miss, stumble or whatever and you'd be fried.
-Robert King
Underrunning has covers in the form of a wooden or plastic sheath covering the top and sides of the rail. You can touch it and be perfectly safe as I have seen idiot kids do on Philly's MFL.
Underrunning is perhaps safer, but over running is cheaper to install, insulate and maintain. I would also think that trains can maintain a better contact on overrunning rail.
Underrunning is good because if you get snow on the third rail, you don't have to worry as much.
In the weekly press release, the first upcoming event was this one. I am a little surprised they announced the station since initially it was not disclosed.
December 5, 12:15 a.m., Emergency Exercise,, sponsored by Metro and the Departments of Transportation, Justice, and Energy, Smithsonian Metro Station, featuring the effectiveness of organizations and emergency services in responding to a simulated release of a harmful chemical agent in a subway station.
Seriously, I would not be surprised if part of this exercise is to make a bit of a PR show with a press conference on site to demonstrate how the local emergency services are well prepared to deal with a chemical/biological attack on the subway in the wake of September 11th. If that is true, the news crews have to know where to go.
-Robert King
What is interesting is that the last train will have just left the station a few minutes before. I wonder how that will effect the drill.
I'm pretty sure they meant 12:15 PM. WMATA makes a ton of typos on their website. Plus, could you imagine all these government people staying up late to do this? LOL.
maybe, maybe not. SF MUNI recently did some drill in the wee hours of a Sunday morning 2-3 AM IIRC
That's true. Since they are going to be creating a "scene", maybe they wish to do it after the last trains have rolled through so they could do this vs. doing it in the middle of the afternoon at lunchtime when there are hundreds of people wandering around. That does make sense.
WMATA has never done an emergency drill on a weekday. They have done drills on the weekend on the Fenwick Bridge, during which yellow line trains run via the blue line from L'Enfant Plaza to Pentagon, then resume normal routing. They can't hold a drill at Smithsonian in the middle of the day.
If the 7th Avenue line is rebuilt South of Chambers Street, South Ferry should be rebuilt a 4 track station so people could catch the 1 or 5 trains. The station would have access to both the East and West side IRT lines as it does now, but be cabable of handling 10 cars. Also, if we're going to rebuild it, how about a link to PATH. This is doubtfull, but I can dream. "242 Street, Van Cortlandt Park to Newark." Interesting...
I could see at least a 2 track stub at South Ferry. The front of the platform would probably be just before the curve in the station now. If nothing else MTA should not use that tight curve or the short platform as a stop. The platform could be extended up the line aways to make it accessable to the current 1 line. There would be a stop at Cortlandt. Rector would probably be abondoned. Maybe the new station at South Ferry could exit at the Ferry ar one end and exit at Rector or whatever was the name if the street at the south end of the station (Morris?)
Maybe the Lexington line can have a connection to the new South Ferry. It all depends where the current line goes from Bowling Green.
Interesting ideas.
The line IS being rebuilt.
I doubt that a new South Ferry connection would be built to handle Lexington Avenue trains for the same reason Lex trains stopped using that station in the first place: There are two rush-hour express lines (#4 & #5) coming into Manhattan from Brooklyn that stop at Bowling Green. A Lexington train that ran to South Ferry would either have to displace some Brooklyn trains (which would worsen service in that borough) or else, additional trains would have to be added, which would cause a bottleneck at Bowling Green.
Even if a new line was built, which I doubt, I also agree it would not connect to Lexington. THey would continue to use the old South Ferry to reverse direction, however.
Now if they could find a way to connect the 6 to south ferry, that would be something.
Cool plan. I reckon there would not be any problem terminating the 5 at South Ferry, but it'd require something they simply are NEVER going to build: an IRT 2nd Av Subway. This would mean that the current diamond 5 trains - oh, why can't they call it the 8? - could run from Flatbush, through the Joralemon, up 2nd Av and say to QBP or something.
Too many people of color think that because something is all white, that it is racist. That is far from the truth. An organization's ethnic makeup does nor necessarily mean it is racist. Yet too many people of color think that is so. We as minorities must be more willing to "crash the party", to let the racists show themselves and deal with them accordingly. Case in point, the Baltimore Streetcar Museum has welcomed me with open arms. The fact that no minorities have preceded me is because none have applied. As such I welcome all people of color to join organizations devoted to railfanning for you are welcome.
Eric D. Smith
Good point. I must point out though that railfanning can be quite a costly hobby and that many minorities may not have enough money to maintain a living and railfan. I think money and power has something to do with this because if more minorities had the money to purchase a good camera, film, pay for processing, a computer, Internet, and a website server, we would possibly see more of them. I have a feeling there are many railfans of color but due to the lack of the money to buy those things, those people probably are merely trainspotters, not photographers or webmasters.
Just my opinion, feel free to comment.
[I must point out though that railfanning can be quite a costly hobby and that many minorities may not have enough
money to maintain a living and railfan.]
Bigot
It is. Maybe you are Bill Gates in which case a few million dollars is pocket change but railfanning is not a cheap hobby. Digital photography runs the costs down quite a lot but for those of us who have yet to go digital, we are still paying for processing, film, etc.
[railfanning is not a cheap hobby.]
I didn't say that wasn't true what I said was that your statement that the reason more minorities aren't railfans is because they are poor is very racist.
I am not intending to be racist, I am merely laying out facts. Nowhere did I say that minorities are dirt poor and I said it was due to corrupted power earlier on. You can't change history and its not very fair to get on my case if I do.
Yes we should get on your case because you simply can't make that assumption and I want to know where you getting these facts from? Wherever you are "getting your so-called facts" you need to ask for an UPDATE quick fast and in a hurry. Because the message you made offends me and disrespected as a female and a minority. Keep in mind to DO NOT GENERALIZE on a SUBJECT you don't know NOTHING about. You may have alot of railfanning yrs under your belt but times have definitly changed and you need to WAKE UP and SMELL the COFFEE.
PEACE OUT!
MS.SEPTA
amen...Ms septa...couldn't of said it better myself,
Peace,
ABDEE
I have basis on which I make my statements although it is very off topic. If you wish to contine this thread via e-mail, feel free.
My last word on this. I see your point and it is not racist. What it is might be truthful. Caucasians who are real poor aren't all that interested in the rails either because they have more important things to worry about. And let's face it, there are more African-American poor that other groups. Maybe it was the way in which it was said. I do know that we have a number of AA males on Subtalk so even aren't devoid of people of color here.
Actually railfanning CAN BE a cheap hobby. It all depends on what TYPE of railfanning your're talking about. For instance, if you are into mainline cross-country railroading, then you ARE talking expensive (if your goal is to follow the equipment and snap some shots). Urban railfanning, (rapid transit and lightrail) is quite inexpensive since all it takes is a couple of bucks and you can basically ride ALL DAY (or night) to your hearts content.
BMTman
Thank you for that statement BMTman
I said the same thing myself in a just completed post. If I had read yours first I could have saved myself the trouble. But yes, what you say is true. You have a field day on the rails in New York for $5 bucks. One dollar and half for carfare, and three and a half for some snacks and you in for a fun day.
your statement that the reason more minorities aren't railfans is because they are poor is very racist.
Statistics cannot be racist. It is a fact that minorites in America have not acheived the same levels of economic success as has the majority. Minorites themselves bemoan this fact. I don't hear you calling them racists.
This is yet one more example of someone yelling "racism" where none exists. Many people on the extreme left seem to have this need to show off their imagined sense of moral superiority. If no evil exists to yell at, then evil must be created. I wish the extreme left had as much courage in attacking real evil, for example: terrorists and their supporters, and other criminals. But that's asking for too much.
Alan Glick
statistics can and indeed often are racist. numbers are collected and analyzed by people. therefore human interpretation is always going to follow through to the final result. ive heard that one reason that newspapers were sure enough of johnsons defeat (it was johnson wasn't it - forgive me if im wrong, im no history scholar) to print it before official verification proved otherwise had something to do with the fact that polls were taken in a very biased manner that misrepresented actual population groups.
as for "minorities" (im assuming that by minority, wmata-moron was probably reffering primarily to african-americans and latinos) and their wealth. it is true that some groups over all tend to be wealthier than others, but that doesnt mean that there isnt a wide distribution of wealth throughout every ethnic and/or racial classification.
the fact that the absense of non-whites in railfaning was suggested by ANYONE to be a result of "minorities being poor" only goes to show how ignorant many americans still are and how far we must go before we can ever think of becomming a colorless society.
[were sure enough of
johnsons defeat (it was johnson wasn't it - forgive me if im wrong, im no history scholar) to print it before official
verification proved otherwise had something to do with the fact that polls were taken in a very biased manner that
misrepresented actual population groups.]
It was Truman and last year the Gore Lovers in the media stated that he won Florida before the polls had closed.
oh woops, see now i feel like an idiot. shows you what happens when you're too young to live it and the new york city public schools were too shortchanged by albany to teach it to you right. we used to have these sessions where everyone in school would copy letters off the board asking for better school funding and the teachers would put them all in a big bag and mail them to koch and whoever the governor was back then.
There are exceptions to the rule. Just because the average person falls into a certain income bracket, it doesn't mean their equal won't be Bill Gates.
Don't take everything literally. Read it, think, try to comprehend, then question, don't bash.
>>> Don't take everything literally. Read it, think, try to comprehend, then question, don't bash. <<<
The corollary to that is to think a bit before you write. If your comments are perceived by many to be racist, but you did not mean them to be, than you have done a poor job of communicating your thoughts.
Tom
If your comments are perceived by many to be racist, but you did not mean them to be, than you have done a poor job of communicating your thoughts.
Or there are a hell of a lot of people in the world with BIG chips on their shoulders.
Geez.
-- Tim
>>> Or there are a hell of a lot of people in the world with BIG chips on their shoulders <<<
Whether people have chips on their shoulders or not is immaterial. When one fails to communicate his real thoughts to another, his use of language has failed. If the failure to communicate is with only one person of a large group, it is reasonable to assume the problem is with the one receiving the communication. If the failure is with a large group of people (with whom one is attempting to communicate) then the failure is in the choice of words.
Tom
Whether people have chips on their shoulders or not is immaterial. When one fails to communicate his real thoughts to another, his use of language has failed. If the failure to communicate is with only one person of a large group, it is reasonable to assume the problem is with the one receiving the communication. If the failure is with a large group of people (with whom one is attempting to communicate) then the failure is in the choice of words.
In principle I agree with you. However, the responses to this message have made it abundantly clear that the people who took offense do, indeed, have enormous chips on their shoulders about this which *caused* them to take offense (and yes, in this situation that is unquestionably material). Those responses were highly charged and emotional answers to a post that clearly wasn't intended to give offense. If it unintentionally did so, then it should have gotten more measured responses explaining why. The sharply worded, angry responses were simply out of line, given -- again -- that any reasonable reading of the original post would make clear that it wasn't intended to be offensive in any way. And those sharply worded responses made clear that those people are wearing tinted glasses that cause them to see racism where there is none. That being the case, the failure in communication is indeed theirs.
I don't think WMATA(whatever the rest of his handle is ;-) ) deserved the thrashing he got here, period.
-- Tim
If your comments are perceived by many to be racist, but you did not mean them to be, than you have done a poor job of communicating your thoughts.
No, it means that there are people who like to yell "racism" where none exists.
Alan Glick
I don't think anyone enjoys saying something is racist. They usually say it because they're unhappy that they feel something is racist.
Think about it- I think whoever you're referring to would rather never have to use that word again.
Not only that-
Just because one person says that something isn't racist, doesn't mean that it isn't.
I don't think anyone enjoys saying something is racist. They usually say it because they're unhappy that they feel something is racist.
Think about it- I think whoever you're referring to would rather never have to use that word again.
Not only that-
Just because one person says that something isn't racist, doesn't mean that it isn't.
I doubt that people who cry "racism" with no justification, as here, would be a bit happy if they never had to use that word again.
And just because one person says something *is* racist doesn't mean that it is, either.
-- Tim
A lot of times people say racist things even when their intent is not racist-
Just because someone doesn't intend to make a racist statement, doesn't mean they are not making a racist statement.
Now, I am not specifically referring to WMATA, I am responding to all those who keep referring to "people" who "see racism where there is none."
I hear this constantly, everytime one person says something is racist, I hear something along those lines.
That's such a common assumption, "because I don't think something is racist, if another says it is, it isn't"
Again-I stress this-
I am NOT referring to specific statements or specific individuals here-
I am simply commenting on some of the statements that keep surfacing in this debate.
Just because someone doesn't intend to make a racist statement, doesn't mean they are not making a racist statement.
Uh, yeah, it does, if we want the word "racism" to mean anything. Racism is an attitude (or a set of attitudes). This/these attitude(s) *must* lie behind a statement for it to be racist. A person who makes a statement that might be considered racist otherwise, isn't making a racist statement if he or she doesn't hold these attitudes; the person is probably just ignorant in one way or another. NOT the same thing at all.
The right response to racism is condemnation. The right response to ignorance is education.
-- Tim
Well put, I agree.
>>> Uh, yeah, it does, if we want the word "racism" to mean anything. Racism is an attitude (or a set of attitudes). This/these attitude(s) *must* lie behind a statement for it to be racist. <<<
You are right, racism is an attitude, but that attitude is not limited to hate or antagonism. In the heyday of the British Empire, many among the British were famous for believing it was "the white man's burden" to bring civilization to the darker races. Many spoke fondly of serving in colonial India with a liking for the Indian people, but with a firm belief that the "wogs" could never govern themselves. Those people were racists just as much as the KKK or the Nazis without (thankfully) the violence.
In the United States, the treatment of native Americans through the Bureau of Indian Affairs, especially the establishment of Indian Schools to displace native American culture was racist, although many of those involved had benign motives.
The original post which started the furor was condescending in tone. It was not name calling and presumably was not intentional. The person who posted it has apologized for any offense taken to his words. Some of the reaction to it was much more strident than necessary, but I understand the feelings of those who were offended.
One needs to be much more careful with the written word than in face to face conversation because of the lack of immediate feedback and non verbal clues from facial expressions and body movements. A misspoken phrase that brings a frown or a surprised look (or a cocked fist) can be quickly modified. The written word does not get the immediate feedback, and therefore needs more thought.
Tom
You are right, racism is an attitude, but that attitude is not limited to hate or antagonism. In the heyday of the British Empire, many among the British were famous for believing it was "the white man's burden" to bring civilization to the darker races. Many spoke fondly of serving in colonial India with a liking for the Indian people, but with a firm belief that the "wogs" could never govern themselves. Those people were racists just as much as the KKK or the Nazis without (thankfully) the violence.
Interesting historical factoid: the phrase "white man's burden" was not used originally with respect to British colonial rule in India, as almost everyone believes, but rather with respect to American colonial rule in the Philippines.
>>> Interesting historical factoid: the phrase "white man's burden" was not used originally with respect to British colonial rule in India, as almost everyone believes, but rather with respect to American colonial rule in the Philippines. <<<
I'm afraid you are wrong on this one Peter. The Rudyard Kipling poem "The White Man's Burden" was published in McClure's Magazine in February of 1899, and was considered either a warning against or an exhortation to America to extend imperial rule to the Philippines, and thus join the European nations in carving out empires. The first lines is "Take up the White Man's burden -". Kipling (1865-1936) was born in India to an English civil servant, but was educated in England, then returned to India as an adult. He was familiar with the term long before he wrote the poem. An extremely thorough discussion of the poem and the attitudes at the time it was published can be found at http://www.boondocksnet.com/kipling/index.html#haskins
Tom
So, in other words, people get a kick out of it, enjoyment, if they feel someone is acting or talking in a racist manner against them?
How would that be?
Why do people assume that because they don't understand another persons viewpoint, that their viewpoint is wrong, or that they are not being honest?
To cry racism for an ulterior motive would be dishonest.
I don't assume people are being dishonest because I have a differing viewpoint.
"I don't assume people are being dishonest because I have a differing viewpoint."
As well you shouldn't. However, when people cry "racism" in its absense that should tip you off that something other than honesty is being displayed.
Alan Glick
Who are we talking about? Al Sharpton? Come on guys, let's put this one to rest before tempers really go off.
So, in other words, people get a kick out of it, enjoyment, if they feel someone is acting or talking in a racist manner against them?
Yes.
How would that be?
They have a lot of emotional capital invested in feeling like victims. I.e., what's commonly known as "having a chip on your shoulder" (oops, I said it again).
-- Tim
That I somewhat agree with-
Overcompensation for feelings of inferiority-
Still- I wouldn't call that enjoyment-
I would call that a "program", if you will- or better, learned behavior, or better still, self-fulfilling prophecy.
Now, why would someone feel like a victim?
Maybe because they've been victimized?
If you have been victimized, wouldn't you be on guard so you wouldn't be victimized again?
As in, if you get bitten by a snake, wouldn't you be leery of snakes?
"As in, if you get bitten by a snake, wouldn't you be leery of snakes?"
That's a lot closer to racism than anything anyone else has said.
Alan Glick
Just because one person says that something isn't racist, doesn't mean that it isn't.
Then, why can't you accept my point that, just because some says something is racist, that doesn't mean that it is?
Yelling "racist" is a tactic sometimes used by those who wish to hide their own racism. For one example, anytime Al Sharpton uses the word.
Alan Glick
The politically correct determinant is that it is the perception of the recipient and not the intent of the speakerthat counts. This is the principle that seems to drive most if not all Title VII cases in the courts. In fact - this usually conveys a presumption of guilt upon the majority.
Right on Alan. There are a few of us that can see that.
(Opps I read the post even thought he is in my killfile)
Wow this is really something. I get an Email telling me how I am a "right wing nut" and reply telling me that I am in the "extreme left" for saying the same thing.
For anyone who has never read my post and thinks that I am on the extreme left I support welfare reform, cutting the federal income tax to 12%, oppose gun control and affirmative action and voted for more republicans than democrats last year.
Worms from cans. People need to work, federal taxes should support working peoples incomes, firearms licensing doesn't equate to crime control, every qualified person is entitled to specific employment and I'll hold 'the party line.' 'Labeling' is an undefenseable act of the ignorant and unsupported. MORE TRAINS, we need more subways that work and the people who really want to make them go. Peter
(Opps I read the post even thought he is in my killfile)
Wow this is really something. I get an Email telling me how I am a "right wing nut" and reply telling me that I am in the "extreme left" for saying the same thing.
For anyone who has never read my post and thinks that I am on the extreme left I support welfare reform, cutting the federal income tax to 12%, oppose gun control and affirmative action and voted for more republicans than democrats last year.
If the above is true, that doesn't change the fact that yelling "racism" where it doesn't exist is a tactic of the left.
Another tactic is to call oneself a moderate, middle-of-the-roader who supports more Republicans than Democrats.
How does one read messages of a person who has been supposedly kill-filed? And why would one do so?
Easy.
When you have sombody in your killfile, when you click on a reply to a message posted by the killfiled poster, the link to the killfiled message is there at the top of the reply post.
You are still off the mark there. Salaam, is African-American and from what I know he isn't Bill Gates in the money department and yet he makes films of the trains of the New York Subway. Anyway, can't you be a railfan just by enjoying riding the rails and picking a favorite line, and buying a shirt, and getting on Subtalk. Hell I'm no millionaire and I live three thousand miles away, but would anyone in their right mind say that I am not a railfan? Hell fanatic would be a better word for it. So I can see What's point.
I keep telling you fred 2440 air miles, 2770 by car via I10-15-40-81-78. first stop toll booth in Jersey City
All right already, cut out the math lesson. 2700plus miles it is.
Geography, not math
Take a look at Wayne Whitehorne's carspotting notebooks and you'll realize that you don't need to spend megabucks to be a serious railfan.
I mentioned that, while I have never seen them myself. I was saying someone who has very little income is not as likely to show up on the internet with photos as someone with a higher income.
That's bullshit, when I first started in the Webmaster game I got me a little cheapy free website, and I was taking pics with cheap ass disposible cammies. AND I WAS 17 AT THE TIME NO LESS! AND A COMPUTER, shit you can get a decent Compaq Presario at about $600.00 or get a second hand for as cheap as $200.00.
The point is that this post should really never have even surfaced because now you are up against a subject I guarentee you will lose. This is A LOT of "minorities" as you would call them, on this board.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
People can find ways to do things without money. I'm broke and yet I am fully up on most of the passenger equipment that plies NY area tracks. It's not the money, my friend. It's whether you are interested enough to railfan or not.
The point is that this post should really never have even surfaced because now you are up against a subject I guarentee you will lose. This is A LOT of "minorities" as you would call them, on this board.
And one of my favorite things about SubTalk is that it doesn't *matter* what race (or sex, or sexual orientation, or ... or ... or ...) you are. Being a railfan is sufficient.
Obviously there is [ahem] a wide spectrum of political viewpoints expressed on here, some less politely than others. But it's still impossible to correlate views with personal characteristics.
As the famous cartoon says, "On the internet, no one knows you're a dog."
Hah! I can't resist:
That's really funny Mr.Pirmann two thumbs up.
That's the way you should have said it in the first place instead of generalizing a group of people. DON'T try to clean it up now WE ALL saw what YOU posted. Let this be a lesson learned and DON'T repeat it again. What my mother always told me "THINK before YOU say something 'cause you don't know how poeple will react to such ignorance".
Wayne has been a carspotter for over 30 years and still carries a notebook with him to jot down car numbers. His dedication is amazing.
That is so true.
Railfanning is a lot cheaper, on average, than a day at Disney World.
The only money I ever spend on railfanning is on fare. To me, railfanning is just riding subways noticing the things that interest me. I never even took pictures while railfanning until I started contributing to this site.
I started out railfanning by leaving my nose print on the inside of the storm door. Anything after that is all frills. You determine your own . Who you are and how you do it is up to you! Technology has created many avenues and introduced a lot of friends that didn't know each other. It's NOT them and us, It is WE.
avid
THANK YA! I was hoping to see something a little more neutral in this thread. One of the great things about the internet is that nobody knows you're a puppy unless you TELL EVERYBODY. One of the FEW equalizers left. :)
I'm plain old whitebread myself, but never bothered photographing the "railfan experience" ... the old MEAT ROM stores all for posterior and costs nothing. I guess I shoulda had a camera. Still, the memories I've chosen to keep are quite vivid and don't fade with the chemicals.
While someone literally set themselves up, I never considered enjoying trains as something that was based on economics or racial background. We're *ALL* sick individuals if we get a hardon for trains. Heh.
[Technology has created many avenues and introduced a lot of friends that didn't know each other. It's NOT them and us, It is WE.]
As Will Rogers once said: "I never met a railfan I didn't like"
That is not a bigoted statement. You don't have to be a genius to know that African-Americans, for the most part, live in many of the poorer areas of New York City and are not as economically endowed as some other groups. Poor housing, poor schools, and lack of opportunity are still problems faced our black brothers, and puttting our heads inthe sand and saying that this does not exist is ridiculous on the face of it. On the other hand, you can still be somewhat poor and be a railfan. Hell you could ride the whole subway system all day for only a buck and a half.
Thank you. While I was not by any means intending to offend anyone, the main intention of my post was to say that many minorities do not have the money to make appearances on this board. Anyone can ride a train. They are cheap for a reason, to get people out of cars, which are costly to maintain. Unfortunately, Kodak, does not care about low income people who have interests in trains and photography, and no ISP is going to determine their rates by income bracket. If they did, more people would have access to these things, but they don't. Please understand, I am not racist by any means. I was simply saying it is a fact of life that a poor person, whether they be white, black, green, blue, or pink, may not be able to afford film, photography equipment, and internet access. Any part of that might be why they either aren't posting here.
I do not claim to be smarter than anyone else and I'm not, but I was surprised at the negative reaction you received. To read carefully what you wrote would be clear for anyone. At least I thought that. However, as an educator that teaches a speech class I should know better than anyone that words can be misconstrued. But here is some advice for you. Never claim that you are NOT a racist because that automatically puts you on the defensive. Go on the offensive if someone calls you that. Put him on the defensive. He will be very leery about calling you that title again.
Hehe, thanks. I was surprised, too, but then again, this is SubTalk and we have quite a unique and diverse group!
A thought the original post sounded like 'all black people are poor and all poor people are black therefore anyone who opposes welfare reform is racist". While it is true that on average black people are not as well off as white people the gap is not as large as many people think it. I believe that last year's census said that black people make around 85% of what white people do. also keep in mind that poor African-Americans tend to live in cities and poor white people tend to live in rural areas so middle class people are more likely to see poor blacks than poor whites.
I know that's right Dand124 that's part of the FACTS that WMATA(whatever his name) failed to mention.
How come if someone believes a stereotype (whether its right or wrong) many people consider them to be a bigot? I personally consider your one word answer to WMATAGM... is a lot more bigoted than anything he said in his initial post because your answer seems to border on dislike. Whether WMATA...'s post was factual or not I believe he was sincere and didn't mean any disrespect for anyone, neither you nor the poster who called him a moron in a later post. However your one word post has a lot of animosity showing through.
Here is the dictionary definition of bigot:big·ot [bíggt ] (plural big·ots) noun
intolerant person: somebody who has very strong opinions, especially on matters of politics, religion, or ethnicity, and refuses to accept different views
By the way, I've never understood why many people think "some of my best friends are _____...)" is a bigoted statement. Couldn't it be that some of ones best friends ARE .....??
Well Jeff thats whats wrong with the NYPD. Beliving in all those stereotype. Read the other posts JEFF, your in the minority here.
Well Jeff thats whats wrong with the NYPD. Beliving in all those stereotype. Read the other posts JEFF, your in the minority here.
Any kind of profiling attempts to limit searches to those who reasonably fit the description of the perpetrator. This makes it more likely that the police will eventually aprehend the criminal. If the description of a criminal is of a white male, it would hamper efforts to find the criminal if police checked non-white females. And visa versa. Opposition to profiling of any kind helps criminals. Black demagogues and white liberals put a low priority on apprehending criminals and a high priority on protecting criminals of the "right" color.
As for Jeff being in the minority here, he should consider that a compliment.
Alan Glick
So your saying that racial profiling is good? If white were put in the same position as minorities, man they would be screaming bloody murder.
Try being a black man for a week or so and you will see why. People like you who want to pick on people base on skin color even if they did nothing wrong at all are damn losers. Try telling your story to the black community.
So your saying that racial profiling is good? If white were put in the same position as minorities, man they would be screaming bloody murder.Try being a black man for a week or so and you will see why.
Wrong. If I am stopped by the police because they were looking for a white criminal I would aid their investigation and wish them well in capturing a criminal who is a danger to people of all colors.
People like you who want to pick on people base on skin color even if they did nothing wrong at all are damn losers.
No one wants to pick on innocent people. Innocent people should be willing to help catch guilty people. What I am clearly saying is that people of all colors can fit into a profile that the police may be searching out at any particular time. People of all colors should be willing to aid investigative efforts. You do not wish to understand what I am saying. You'd rather yell "racist" (or loser) becasue that's easier than dealing with the force of my logic.
Try telling your story to the black community.
My point would be accepted by those in the black community who are for law and order. It would not be accepted by those who wish for criminals of their same skin color to go free.
Alan Glick
how about all the innocent people that were killed?
What if they were white? What would you say?
how about all the innocent people that were killed?
What if they were white? What would you say?
We weren't talking about people getting killed. We were talking about people getting questioned. Your apparent evasion of the issue shows your inability to debate this (or any issue). Goodbye.
Alan Glick
How would you know that Glick? You show that you dont care about people complaining that they are being harassed. So blame yourself when blacks look at you like your their enemy. How do you know that I cannot debate any issue Glick? Your lack of understanding on this issue (or any issue) shows through. Thank God we don't have many of your kind around.
David, I put the jerk in my killfile you should do the same.
David, I put the jerk in my killfile you should do the same.
It would be awful if you were exposed to differing viewpoints wouldn't it?
Alan Glick
>>> Thank God we don't have many of your kind around. <<<
Are you sure we don't have many?
Tom
What about Rodney King or that young African American man who was shot forty one times because his color made him look like a criminal? You are not only a racist but completely out of your mind if you think that profiling of any kind is good. When I was doing research for my book on the New York Els those white policeman patroling the elevateds looked at me and other black riders with as much "affection" as the Nazi SS looked at the Jews. In going through Brooklyn, the Bronx, and the South and West Side's of Chicago, I felt that I had a better chance of being killed by a racist cop than an African American thug. So pardon my tone and language but take that "profiling is good" bullshit and shove it up that part of your anatomy where the sun don't shine.
Eric Dale Smith
P.S. If you took that racist position into the black community I guarantee that they'd hang you from the nearest lampost and with good reason.
[ If you took that racist position into the black community I guarantee that they'd hang you from the nearest lampost and
with good reason.]
hold on as much as i disagree with Mr. Glick's views he does have a right to free speach like everyone else
I'm not questioning his right of free speech but come on, am I supposed to accept those onerous positions without comment? As I've said all along I assume the best in everybody but if you expose your true colors in matters such as these, watch out.
Eric Dale Smith
no matter how vile someones views are no one has the right the kill them over it.
You're right. I was WAY out of line to even suggest such a thing. My apologies to Mr. Glick.
Eric Dale Smith
You're right. I was WAY out of line to even suggest such a thing. My apologies to Mr. Glick.
Eric Dale Smith
I'll accept your apology if you can refrain from personal attacks in the future and stick to debating the issues.
Alan Glick
I'm not questioning his right of free speech but come on, am I supposed to accept those onerous positions without comment?
What's onerous about investigating crime?
As I've said all along I assume the best in everybody but if you expose your true colors in matters such as these, watch out.
The criminal mind now threatens? Hardly surprising.
Alan Glick
E Dog: Wow!!! I hope tempers will cool somewhat. If you are a person of color racial profiling is horrible because you are singled out. There has to be a better way. But here is the rub. It has been chronicled that African-Americans are more involved in crimes than other groups. It is not a pleasant thing to say, but it happens to be true. That is not racist but fact. It does make profiling seem necessary to the police. I don't like it at all and believe there should be a better way. What is a better way? I'm afraid I don't know. What does get me are those cops, a very small minority, by the way, that abuse this and treat blacks like dirt. Those cops should be brought on the carpet, but like the vast majority of AA's our police are overwhelmingly good guys who protect and serve and do a very good job under trying circumstances. Now please can we put this topic to rest?
The Black experience in America has not allowed for the cultivation of Railfans. As the lifestyle of Blacks changes, maybe more will find an interest in trains.
There is a reason why as of now, nearly every railfan is white, overweight, and gives off a weird vibe.
One day I was looking at pictures of one of those railfan trips, and I don't think I saw one Black person in those photos. And if there was one black person, that's still a disproportionately low number considering the number of Blacks as a percentage in NYC
You obviously did not ride on the D-Type trip sponsored by the March of Dimes this past August.
There were black faces in the crowd. Even one young black FEMALE FOAMER (I'm making an emphasis here since she DID stand out in the crowd, so to speak).
If you met her you'd know what I'm talking about...
BMTman
You're right. The black experience in America does not allow for the cultivation of railfans. That's why I'm so proud to be one.
Eric D. Smith
Wait a minute. Isn't this the exact statement, made by another poster here, that got you all riled up a few days ago?
Proud to be black? Bravo for you! Not interested in rails? Come on, we've got to get more interested in the subway. Isn't it a fact that on many of the lines black neighborhoods intersperse the lines? Isn't Houston, Wayne Johnson, N Broadway Line, and others African-American? So there is representation on Subtalk. The aim is to get other AA's interested, and while we're about it, how about some of the newer immigrants, the Dominicans, the Russians, the Koreans? Hell, the subway of New York is one of the wonders of the world. New Yorkers should revel in it, all that is, but those snobs on the u pper West Side who feel it is beneath them to ride the rails.
Which snobs on the Upper West Side are those? (Must be the ones who can't fit on the train.)
You're right. The black experience in America does not allow for the cultivation of railfans. That's why I'm so proud to be one.
Eric D. Smith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But it will change. Eventually, you'll start hearing Blacks who speak of the Taking of the Pelham 123 with reverence, just like white rail buffs.
BUT,to GOD.....we are all the same......so stop this nonsence,ok?
We are all different, vastly different. Even identical twins are different.
Just what I would expect from you........onk onk onk.....
Someone accused me of being a TA recruiter...let me just say that I never knew about the opportunities that TA had to offer. LuchAAA should find some time to go into the schools, standing up against the Board of Education, to present what railfanning/technical employment can give to 'minorities.' TA is an equal opportunity employer...everyone is welcome...AND if the 'minorities' don't discover or want the work, the empty spaces WILL be filled by immigrants who do. Make me dirty, make me greasy, make me black from head to toe...TA work is GOOD work even if they NEVER put my technical skills to work. Electrical/mechanical/electronic skills are far more valuable than a n y t h i n g. I work with Russian engineers who came here and took the work, sometimes doing nothing but cleaning and inspecting. WE are the TA, WE make the trains GO. CI Peter
Please explain why I was singled out in your post.
There would have been no problem with me in that regard if I had not moved to California with my family in late 1954. I would have gone to work for the TA as sure as the sun rises in the East. I wanted to be a motorman in the worst way, but when we moved west there were no subways and that dream went by the boards. I always had visions as a kid motoring a #4 Triplex Sea Beach to Coney Island. But within a decade the Sea Beach was no longer #4 and the Triplexes were no more.
I spoke to my 'undercar' partner whom, not that it should matter, is a 'minority member,' about this FLAK on SubTalk. He laughed his heart out and said in ten or fifteen years time when the glutted IT industry has been long overshadowed by EVERYONE having/using IT skills, minorities will be flocking to TA for the technical work. I may already be too old to see it happen. CI Peter
What makes me sad is that young blacks are steered away from the TA opportunities. Where are the young men who'll keep the system moving??? As the city population of minorities grow, where will the representation figures of the TA go? Where will TA get semi-qualified employees from? All India Railways??? Thankyoyverrymuch CI Peter
What makes me sad is that young blacks are steered away from the TA opportunities. Where are the young men who'll keep the system moving???
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Explain. Why do you say that young Blacks are steered away from TA opportunities?
There not there. Period. Car Inspectors require some kind of experience...they weren't in our classes. When I got to my first assignment, I can count only two permanents. I had asked the black people I know and trust in TA and got an answer: black kids are taught not to take work that'll make them dirty and lose respect in the community. All the 'blacks' on the job are 'yah mon West Indians.' So who does newbie CI Peter have the greatest respect for: it's the black kids in apprenticeship programs that the TWU balks about. THEY will make their lives better, THEY will have opportunities I never had. The minority population of NYC increases...the opportunities exist...and the Black (A/A) and Puerto Rican parts of the society don't have proportionate memmbers in the technical parts of CED. TA needs new blood and how far can they go hiring 47 year old guys like me. I got chewed out by the Jamaican lady at 1250 B'way for not coming to TA before....I didn't know about the opportunities...and now I work so very hard to proove myself of worth. So why should TA have to hire immigrants when we have a standing population of citizens who need good work??? Answer is simple: no one wants to get dirty (TA school didn't warn us.)
Pleeese watch the closing doors thankyouverrymuch, CI Peter
I respect your opinions, and think it's great that you are expressing yourself here. But be careful. If someone on this board does not like you, or what you have to say, they'll send a copy of your opinions to 1250 Bdwy, and you'll have a second meeting with that Jamaican lady. Except this time she'll be handing you your termination papers.
If you really want to get fired, at least do it for a good cause. Prove that the TA closes the express tracks bet Roosevelt and Manhattan every weekend, and eliminates E service while there is not even any track work taking place, causing an unnecessary inconvenience to passengers.
Understood thoroughly....and thankyou. I'm well aware of what I say and post...and try to share the gift that TA has given me. People who know me readily recognise that I love this work because I have a place for my technical skills. The opportunities are going to waste. That Jamaican lady who busted my chops on the line and then queried me about why I didn't come to TA sooner...could never hand me the papers because she saw the tears in my eyes when she said, "Welcome." Someone got busted for 'insubordination' for naming another in a posting...there are TA personell checking out the internet. I am very careful about all of this...my comments are usually of a technical nature regarding what TA has received for our tax dollars. The whole E DOG debacle has made me sick and i know i don't need to respond to a G-2. The NYC Board of Education needs a good sweeping out...I grew up next to the High School of Aviation Trades on East 63rd Street..AND only wish I had someone to introduce me to the oportunities thirty years ago. God Bless, CI Peter
P.S. Racism, perceived or otherwise, not lifestyle, has everything to do with this.
Eric D. Smith
Please explain. I'm lost.
"The Black experience in America has not allowed for the cultivation of Railfans. As the lifestyle of Blacks changes, maybe more will find an interest in trains."
What exactly does this clap-trap mean? Sounds like politically incorrect thought trying to impersonate the politically correct.
I have been a railfan since I was a child, so I cannot figure out that statement for the life of me. I grew up in Bedford -Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn, and enjoyed the subways that I lived near :the A train on Fulton Street, the Franklin Ave. shuttle and the Brighton Line, and the IRT lines on Eastern Parkway. If I felt adventurous, I would go across Prospect Park and check out the IND F-line on 9th Street in Park Slope, and sometimes ride to Coney Island. I am about to turn 50 in a couple of months, so I have seen many things. I also did not choose to get into many things, which is why I am still walking around and many individuals who grew up with me are now in the graveyard.
Thanks. I thought that I was going to be out on the limb alone again. I grew up believing that black children didn't play with electric trains. Of course, having moved from Brownsville to Massapequa in the 50s, my familiarity with what was going on in the basements of black kids was very limited. Therefore black boys my age didn't like trains. I also didn't move back to Queens until the 60s and then didn't ride the subway for fun very often. When I did, it was on the 'safe' lines. So black kids didn't ride the subways for fun either - as far as I knew. Thankfully, most of us grow up and realize that our perceptions are wrong and our commonalities easily outnumber our superficial differences.
One note though - While growing up in the 50s and 60s, I eagerly looked forward to each new edition of the lionel catalog. In retrospect, I remember lionel liberally sprinkled images of boys, together with their dads throughout the catalog (Usually craning over a large loco or accessory). Those images were virtually always of white boys with white men. I don't recall images of minority train fans. (I hope someone has photos from old lionel catalogs to show). Not only did lionel miss the boat to bring thousands more people into the hobby. They also give a sad commentary about corporate thinking in the 50s.
Back then, especially during the 1950's, black people were almost rendered invisible,except in areas like entertainment, sports, or crime. during the late 1960's civil rights era, more visibility began, but still things were limited. There is still a long way to go, but hopefully we as a nation have become more educated and aware of who we are and resist retreating into the realm of ignorance which was plentiful in the past. I saw on a documentary on the FBI on the History Channel the comment was made that one of J. Edgar Hoover's biggest mistakes was not to make the ranks of the FBI more inclusive of minorities, in that by having a force of agents of one particlar stereotype, they were usually spotted by organized crime figures and that policy also helped organized crime to grow in this country, as law enforcement culd not effectively blend in with them. Just another point of information to ponder.
and while you are at it where were the girls/moms/ We made sure both kids had their own trains when small--result two adult railfans--not raving foamers but they go on excursions for fun.
Lionel did have the 'girl's train' in the 60s, complete with pink locootive and pastel cars. It is wortha small fortune today. K-Line just released 2 versions of the same train. $550 for the command control version.
we didn't do that. she got legit cars and engines lettered for local rr's here (SP/SSW) her brother got WP & BN stuff.
The Lionel Girl's Train, set number 1587, was released in 1957. It was a flop and many sets (mostly from large retail chains) were returned to Lionel's distributors for credit. These sets were resold at a fraction of their original cost to hobby shops, who repainted the cars and locomotives for local roads not represented in Lionel's inventory, and were then sold to the public as individual pieces. Many a Girl's Train transformer (yes, even the transformer was pink) ended up being the test track transformer in these shops. Those shops who didn't repaint the equipment sold it piecemeal to hobbyists who would, or cannibalized the cars for parts.
From the mid-'80s through its ultimate demise earlier this year I was involved with a retail hobby shop (founded in 1946) in North Carolina. We would periodically see these repainted cars as we acquired collections from various estates. Many - 40%, I'd guess, of the ones we saw - had been converted to scale O trucks and had had significant modifications made to the body, either in terms of detailing, combining two cars together to make a longer one, or both. Those which still had the Lionel trucks and couplers were typically just repainted and relettered. Repainted locomotives typically weren't modified for scale operation, and didn't turn up as often as I might have expected, given the number of cars that we saw. This may be because they had a shorter mechanical life and were junked in earlier years, while the cars soldiered on, or because they were more often cannibalized for parts by the hobby shops and never offered for retail sale, or both.
In about 1992, some time after the death of the shop's founder, his son, my older son, and I were going through a large warehouse owned by the estate, in preparation for the sale of several of his father's antique cars that were stored there. It had also served as a storage area for the shop, and had many, many unidentified cartons of excess merchandise that had been taken there and forgotten about. We had periodically gone over there and found classic merchandise - mostly old plastic car and aircraft models, with the occasional box of HO slot car accessories or Athearn cars thrown in for good measure - and brought them back to the shop for sale. While moving a couple of hundred cartons out of the way of a mid-'20s sedan that probably hadn't moved since the mid-'50s we found several cartons that were much heavier than most, and decided to investigate. Inside were a total of twelve original Girl's Trains that had never been out of the box. Needless to say, over the next three years they contributed significantly to the shop's profitability.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll dig out my GG-1. A little beat up cuz little kids do stupid things...big kids reef Redbirds. CI Peter
Which GG-1 do you have, 2330, 2332, 2340 or 2360?
Lionel did have the 'girl's train' in the 60s, complete with pink locootive and pastel cars. It is wortha small fortune today.
During the late 1950's, Cadillac tried to market a woman's version of the DeVille sedan ... which differed from the regular version mainly by being offered in only one color. Yes, pink.
As you might imagine, it wasn't a sales success.
Would this be the famous pink Cadillac in the Clint Eastwood movie?
Ford tried the same thing as late as 1976, with its Thunderbird "Lipstick Luxury Group."
>>> I remember lionel liberally sprinkled images of boys, together with their dads throughout the catalog (Usually craning over a large loco or accessory). Those images were virtually always of white boys with white men. <<<
It is hard to single out Lionel. Until the mid ‘60s the same (with regard to the ethnicity of the models) could be said for any national catalog including Sears and Montgomery Ward, and national advertizing for everything from automobiles to Coca Cola. Even the automobile ads in Ebony magazine in the ‘50s depicted only white people.
Tom
<LuchAAA- When you were a young boy, and dinosaurs roamed the earth.
<>
LuchAAA- So what? All you have to do these days is go to your local newsstand, pick up any magazine devoted to model railroads, and almost everyone in the magazine (i.e.- people who send in pictures of themselves, alongside their model railroad)is white.
<>
LuchAAA- It's called "demographics". You're a motorcycle aficionado. Right? Just look through any magazine dedicated to motorcycles. How many people pictured in these magazines are minorities? Does this mean that there is a deficiency in the corporate thought process in the motorcycle publishing industry? Of course not. They're targeting a specific market, and want to be as accurate as possible in reflecting that market in their magazine.
Jailhouse Doc was more on the money when noting that Sears catalogs did not fairly represent blacks in the past. That's a valid argument. Sears is a national chain, and should adjust to the needs of a powerful buying segment by changing their marketing techniques to include that segment.
But in the case of niche markets, such as Lionel trains, or model railroads, it would be foolish to include demographics that show little interest in your area, just for the sake of being politically correct.
I'm an avid swimmer. I never see minority models in the catalogs or magazines that I buy. Is this a "sad commentary about corporate thinking" in the world of swimming? Or, is it an accurate representation of those who are really involved in the world of swimming?
Actually I'm 52 years old.
LuchAAA- It's called "demographics". You're a motorcycle aficionado. Right? Just look through any magazine dedicated to motorcycles. How many people pictured in these magazines are minorities?
You are, of course referring to the few pictures that don't show women riders. Look at some of the news tapes of some of the larger bike rallies. Lots of minorities including women. I guess you don't get out much.
"Sears is a national chain,"
I'm willing to bet that the Lionel orange/blue scheme & logo is as universally known as the sears logo
Besides which, I mentioned lionel because it was subject relavent. What does sears have to do with railfans and minorities. Once again, my friend, your thought process is starting to drift - off track.
I mentioned Sears, because one subtalker, I believe Jailhouse Doc, mentioned it in his post, which tied in with this whole thing.
So let's get back on track. Respond to my post regarding Metrocard machines, and understaffed token booths.
"I mentioned Sears, because one subtalker, I believe Jailhouse Doc, mentioned it in his post, which tied in with this whole thing."
Yes but if you follow the thread back, I mentioned Lionel before JHDoc mentioned Sears. Lionel was clearly more related to the issue of developing railfans than sears was - or am I missing something? That was the issue we were discussing, was it not?
"Respond to my post regarding Metrocard machines, and understaffed token booths."
Gee - I hadn't realized that our relationship had progressed to the point where you are now giving me orders. If and when I read that post & if I feel it merits a response, I'll respond to it.
WRONG! Only those who have victim status have the right to free speech. Anyone else is a racist, sexist, homophobic, etc... in America.
No everyone should have the right to free speech even if his or her views are truly racist, sexist, or homophobic.
No everyone should have the right to free speech even if his or her views are truly racist, sexist, or homophobic.
But it's OK if someone's views support criminals?
Alan Glick
Sometimes when a women is RAPED, the newspapers give a description like this:
"Suspect is a Male, 5'10, 180 lbs, with a mustache, and scar on his left cheek." The newspapers are so afraid to mention ethnicity because certain groups are so sensitive. Amazing how the media would actually jeopardize the case, and safety of other women, so as not to piss off a few hot headed citizens.
Imagine if your sister, mother, or wife is raped, gives a description to the police, and the media modifies that description, or leaves out a police sketch for the sake of being politically correct?
I'd also like someone to explain why the infamous Upper East Side rapist is not classified as the perpertrator a "hate crime" in addition to a "sex crime". And before you answer, imagine the outcry if a white suspect were wanted for raping more than 10 black or Latino women in Harlem.
["Suspect is a Male, 5'10, 180 lbs, with a mustache, and scar on his left cheek." The newspapers are so afraid to mention
ethnicity because certain groups are so sensitive.]
Thats plain stupid Do the PC Nazis have that much control of the press.
[I'd also like someone to explain why the infamous Upper East Side rapist is not classified as the perpertrator a "hate crime" in
addition to a "sex crime".]
I personally don't think there should be any difference between hate crimes and regular crimes. A crime is a crime no matter what motive.
There is nothing wrong with mentioning a that a suspect is a member of a certain ethnic group. Its just part of the discription. It is WRONG, however to stereotype EVERYONE of a certain ethnic group.
Who doesn't agree. If so explain why. Thanks.
There is nothing wrong with mentioning a that a suspect is a member of a certain ethnic group. Its just part of the discription. It is WRONG, however to stereotype EVERYONE of a certain ethnic group.
Who doesn't agree. If so explain why. Thanks.
NO ONE has said such a thing. What has been said (and what you continue to ignore) is that if someone fits the descrription of a criminal, the police should investigate.
Alan Glick
First a crime any crime is a hate crime. Ha crime is commited against someone is a show of hate, reguardless of what the crime or motive is.
"And before you answer, imagine the outcry if a white suspect were wanted for raping more than 10 black or Latino women in Harlem"
The outcry would be the same. Why should it be any different? He has the hots for Lantino and black women.Personal sexual preference, why should it matter?
BTW: what does this have to do with Eric's post?
BTW: what does this have to do with Eric's post?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does any of this have to do with the NYC Subway, as in NYCSUBWAY.ORG?
What about Rodney King
He was a criminal evading arrest. Watch the entire video clip. Not just the final few seconds where the cops wanted to be sure he had stopped standing up and throwing them around.
If you took that racist position into the black community I guarantee that they'd hang you from the nearest lampost and with good reason.
I'm sure that's exzactly what the criminal element in the black community would do to anyone who advocated that criminals of all colors should be investigated and hopefully arrested. Nice of you to show your criminal inclinations. It bears out what I've said.
Alan Glick
If you are going to talk about minorities who were victimized to argue racism, I would not use Rodney King as an example. Personally after what he's done since the celebrated case was settled, I think they should cut his feet off and beat him over the head with them. You might as well be using tawana brawley as an example of virtue and honesty.
what did he do?
He's been picked up over the past six years at shorter and shorter intervals for either drug use (PCP at least onces) and domestic violence charges in the L.A. area. I think he was arrested three times this summer alone, but I'm sure based on what happened 10 years ago, the treatement he gets downtown nowadays is probably about like what Sheriff Taylor gave Otis Campbell at the Mayberry jail on "The Andy Griffith Show" :-)
Any kind of profiling attempts to limit searches to those who reasonably fit the description of the perpetrator.
Y'all are talking past each other.
"Racial profiling," as the term has come to be used lately, has absolutely nothing to do with searching for perpetrators of specific crimes. It refers to the police practice of singling out people for traffic stops and the like based on their ethnicity. (My favorite way of describing this is that African-Americans can get arrested for "driving while black" -- maybe it wouldn't be funny if I were black, but the bitter irony of it always gives me a little chuckle, even though the practice itself is awful.)
-- Tim
Actually, RAILFANNING is very inexpensive. I'm not the richest of folk, but it was quite easy to get my start as a youth of five. All I had to do was walk to the tracks and watch to my hearts content. Don't you realize that most poor, mminority areas are chock full of railyards? And buying a camera can be as cheap as ten dollars. Come on now.
Oh my..."if more minorities had the money to purchase a good camera, film, pay for processing, a computer, Internet, and a website server, we would possibly see more of them." What are you trying to say, that most/close to all minorities don't have a lot of money? That makes *YOU* the racist...I know MANY people that are quite the contrary to what you say.
First off as a Ethinically Conscience African American Transit Fan, we are NOT the minority.
Hold the fucking phone. I work from paycheck to paycheck and yet I found that I could splurge out 400-600 bucks EVERY 6th months to upgrade to a new Digi camera to keep me going, I'm not the most richest person in the world. Enough about me!
Secondly, Railfanning and Busfanning does not REQUIRE a camera to enjoy the hobby, Prime example I met a kid today at E180th who was just there enjoying the trains flying by. And do not pull a friggin' Ross Perot with the "those people" comment. Do your research before you go make such statements. There is plenty of Minorities in the field and just as plenty with pretty expensive equipment rolling around.
Your statement would be true if it was pre-1990. Of course back then you had the quote "Whiteboys" unquote running around with the expensive cameras and the awesome slide archives. But the deal is now that it is the new Millennium, Minorities (Such as Myself) are kicking down those doors, coming out as webmasters, banging out just as good photos, and buying them expensive Cammies to do it.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
P.S. for the record, I'm far from a racist, so don't take that "whiteboy" comment out of context, I just didn't know what other word to use
[Secondly, Railfanning and Busfanning does not REQUIRE a camera to enjoy the hobby, Prime example I met a kid today at E180th who was just there enjoying the trains flying by. And do not pull a friggin' Ross Perot with the "those people" comment. Do your research before you go make such statements. There is plenty of Minorities in the field and just as plenty with pretty expensive equipment rolling around.]
Trevor, I don't always side with you on alot of your postings but found the above paragraph of this posting to be 'right on the money'.
BMTman
That is certainly a piece of good news. However, I still see a lot of poor minorities when I traverse various New York neighborhoods. So the fact some African-Americans have made a big jum economically cannot hide that many are still left behind, and when a recession hits it makes it even worse.
Keep in mind that poor African-Americans tend to live in cities and poor white people tend to live in rural areas so middle class people are more likely to see poor blacks than poor whites.
It really don't take much to be a Railfan. I started to get really into it when I was 15 Years old. I was able to enjoy myself with a Disposable camra and a $10 metrocard and maybe $5 for lunch. Today the only thing has changed is I have a job and my subway and bus rides are free.
I'm not going to comment on this response.
Well I for one, speaking from a minority/female perspective it's definitly hard to go on charters when it's only middle age to elderly caucasion men who look at me thinking why am I here (ASSuming that I was going for a free ride, NO) and at first when i was seventeen yes I couldn't afford to go on all the charters I wanted to attend BUT that was 5yrs ago. Now I've become quite successful at age 22 and now I have the legitimate means to purchase an excellent digital camera for railfanning and charters that I choose to go on. And just like someone mentioned YES I definitley CRASH the party everytime and the knuckleheads always show their face. BUT unfortunatley "they" will get over it. In conclusion people should not generalize a group of people (i.e. minorities) that you don't know nothing about based on looks or whatever 'cuase some of you be on charters look & smell like you don't have a pot to pee in nor a window to throw it out of. But I don't make that type of assumptions nor do i generalize a group of people that I know nothing about. That's not fair and it is wrong for anyone make that assumption. Becuase I can make a few generalizations myself for real! Please give me your feedback on my VALID statement.
Thanx,
MS.SEPTA
Well said Ms. SEPTA. Upon reaching adulthood... your area was one of those I first spread out into. Now I'm in my mid 30's and I live a comfortable lifestyle (and I very grateful for all I have) , but I remember the old days very well when I had to rail/bus fan on very little money. I would continue to "crash" also. In the beginning I rec'd strange looks - I didn't get discouraged.
Wayne
Right on Mr. Wayne.
It can be costly, but it certainly doesn't have to be. I was a rail (and bus) fan for as long as I can remember. In my early teen years I used to ride the TA's Nostalgia Special every week as well as plenty of riding on the buses/subway. Granted, I couldn't ride as many buses as I wanted because in most cases additional fares would be required. Being a kid from the Bronx (OA territory) I was always interested in riding TA buses. I often took rides on the subway and then rode a bus that had free transfers to/from the subway like the B35, B54 and BX55. I didn't have a camera, but I rode often to learn and stay "in-touch" with the NYC area transit scene. I also ventured into NJ on PATH and NJTransit bus routes as well as MSBA and Bee Line areas. I was doing all of this on very little money because we just did not have a lot of money. One thing that also came in very handy was that fromthe 4th grade right though to high school I always had a bus pass which I used to ride just about every OA route as well as a few TA routes.
I had very little, but my fascination with the transit scene made me quite resourceful.
Wayne
I guess that WOMEN don't have money for cameras, film, processing,etc., either? I don't think it has anything to do with money. It has to do with BEING INTERESTED in the hobby! I realize there are minorities and women out there who ARE interested in trains and buses, but not in big numbers. It must be that MOST are just not interested in this particular hobby.
That last sentence is believed by most to be correct.
Well !! count me in on " THROWING A FLY IN THE SOUP" .......man i ruin everything !! I hav always enjoyed electric powered
rail transit systems ( especially railfan window equipped ) ....lol!!
last year we rode AMTRAK @ the southwest chief to the @ lakeshore limited ....all the way to my home & birthplace nyc !!!
& all to shoot videos of the subway & take pictures as well . So hows DAT' ...fo' ....being BLACK and being a railfan as well...LOL !!
shown below is myself & my wife back in 1991 when the los angeles blue line ( long beach to anaheim station only ) FREE RIDE DAY !
ENJOY !!!
2 ALL BLACK RAILFANS YEA !!!!!! ......lol!!
Wasn't that 1990? Long Beach Loop opened late in 1990, and 7th/Metro opened February 14th, 1991.
U might B right about that @ 1990 .....during the grand opening all free ride wekend ( 7th metro to anaheim station )
took this pic ( with my wife since 1972 ) at the washington station platform on saturday during that free ride weekend...
MAYBE IT WAS 1990 I STAND CORRECTED !!! ..............................lol!!!
Even my wife got off riding the redbirds with me sure enjoyed the express rides (s) .. # 7 i shot on video MAN DID WE ENJOY IT !!
duing the 2000 world series ........wow !!
HERE ARE YOUR 2 BLACK RAILFANS !!!
I'm black and a railfan also.I'm a college graduate also,My dad worked for the TA for 37 years, I wanted to be a T/O in the worst kind of way but my dad talked me out of it, and said I should go to college, I have a computer, scanner and a camera, sometimes I take pictures, sometimes I dont.I just enjoyed the subways, I walk around the trains stations whatever.Most of my friends have comps and digital cameras, It took awhile for Blacks to get into comps and things, but being a black person, I see it everyday.
Your Dad gave you great advice. There are far to many T/Os in the worst way. We need more T/Os in the Best way!
LOL
avid
If people of color think railfanning is "white" it appeals to me to be a relatively recent phenomenon. If true, it's a sad commentary on a society has stratified at the same time as it appears to become more inclusive.
Back in the '50s (still had Jim Crow laws, Brown v Board was a recent phenomenon) one of the appealing things about railfanning was how totally inclusive it was. Either you were a railfan or your weren't. If you were self-conscious about being a "loon" you certainly weren't concerned that you looked a bit different.
There was one NY-area chapter of a national organization that had a reputation of having only members who were of the "right people." If you were black or Jewish or too ethnic you could only get in if you could "pass"--i.e., had some kind of prominence in railfandom. I knew many railfans who were the "right people" who wouldn't jointhe organization for their attitudes.
I'm coming late to this thread, so I may be saying things that have already been said, but...
I think that more minorities should be railfans for the same reason I think more white people should be railrans...it's fun, and I want as many people to be able to enjoy the fun as possible.
I had another thought...In the first half of the 1900s, when lots of African-Americans were employed as train porters, wasn't the train porter's union a cradle for civil rights activism? I don't know any of this for certain, so others will have to fill me in.
Mark
Here's more information...
The union was called the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, and it was organized by the African-American labor leader A. Philip Randolph in 1925. If anyone knows more, please fill me in.
Mark
>>> If anyone knows more, please fill me in. <<<
A. Phillip Randolph, a socialist once jailed for treason, was a giant of both the labor movement and the civil rights movement. Because he was a socialist, you probably did not hear much about him in American public schools. To really learn about him you need to visit your public library and do some in depth research. Here is a short biography.
Tom
A major reason why you do not see more minorities -- assuming we're referring to Blacks and Latinos here -- is that for the most part if you were to admit to (or are 'outed') as being a railfan the ridicule from peers would rain down like a monsoon.
For the most part hobbies like railfanning were not considered 'cool' -- at least from my experiences having grown up in the Flatbush section of Brooklyn which was largely a black neighborhood while I lived there (1970's).
Things have certainly changed alot over the years, but Black and Latino railfans are for the most part not visible. I KNOW there are plenty out there, but for the most part they are 'lurkers' in the hobby (many of them work for NYCT and that might be part of the 'low profile' attitude many of them take).
Just some observations from experience...
BMTman
I must agree with you BMTman 'cause I recieved the same treatment as a teen and still a little bit now from time to time. BUT I DON'T GIVE a DAMN because I like what I like that's all it is to it. My motto is
"To Keep it Real".
Good to read your posts, Ms.SEPTA.
BMTman
Amen to that. We're fortunate to have her.
Eric Dale Smith
BMTman:
You're correct. Growing up in the Bronx (West Farms section and later Concourse/Tremont) - I know for a fact that it wasn't "cool" to a lot of folks. Unfortunately - this included some relatives. In those days a was quite reluctant to share the fact that I was a transit enthusiast. Basically, I just felt people out because I did have a couple of peers that knew about my hobby. Now as an adult I have no problem with people knowing about my hobby.
However, there were those who would joked with me (and encouraged me) about my fascination with buses/trains. They would often say things like... Remember how Wayne knew all of the bus routes and could tell which bus was approaching from far away?
Wayne
I have an aunt who used to always make sure I had enough money to ride the Nostalgia Special every Sunday with some spending money.
Wayne, seems you had a very nice aunt, encouraging your interest in railfanning...
Thanks for sharing your story...
BMTman
My apologies are extended to anyone who was offended in any way by my post of yesterday evening. It was not intended to offend anyone, although, unfortunately, it did. Now, let's get back to trains, which is why we post on that board. I, nor anyone else, has or should have the intention of posting there with the intention of being racist and I am quite sure that those who do so by accident, do not mean for their comments to be taken that way when they are posted. Sometimes, no matter how much one proofreads, they only realize after publication that what they did was not right. That happened to me last night.
Once again, I do apologize. If anyone wishes to respond, please e-mail me.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
What's Comet Cursor?
Arti
You went to the website?
Comet Cursor just gives you a whole bunch of cool mice. Not necessary to download but most people I know have it, so that is why I do.
[You went to the website? ]
Yep.
[Comet Cursor just gives you a whole bunch of cool mice.]
That's what I thought. I prefer not to install unneccessary stuff, so I didn't download it. BTW it's little annoying that it want's to download it on every page, if I opt not to get it.
Arti
More Comet Cursor Info.
I don't know what to tell you. Those JavaScript things are annoying too when it tells you there is an error. Why not have the webmaster correct it?
[Why not have the webmaster correct it? ]
You're not the webmaster?
Arti
I was reffering to the Java scripts.
What's Comet Cursor?
Comet Cursor is a "Spyware" program that tracks where you go while on-line and sends that information to advertisers.
Good thing I have a policy to not download anything I don't know about or need.
Arti
Beware of geeks bearing "gifts." :)
Call me niave but I can't understand why we need to let the groups we belong to, define us. It seems to me that the commonality should be the activity that we draw pleasure from and not the demographics of those that share that pleasure.
In this month's issue of "Classic Toy Trains" magazine, there was an editorial that touched on just this issue. While there are an estimated 130,000 people in the US who are seriously into model railroading - most are white middle-age males. While the thrust of the article was the economic issue of new trains flooding the market - deminishing the value of older trains, it did raise the issue of bringing new blood into the hobby.
Personally, I don't care if the person who shares my hobby interests is a male or a female, white or black or even a lesbian eskimo. As long as they share the interests that I do and accept my enthusiasm as I accept theirs, it matters not what they are - just who they are. I just think it's a shame that some people in this day and age need to identify themselves by some subjective demographic group and its relative size - compared to other meaningless groups.
Way to go Train Dude you hit the nail on the head.
AMEN TrainDude: how many years did it take for women to be able to drive a city bus or operate a subway???? The opportunities in both the hobby and TA employment for all who have interest is there. Problem still remains that such hobbies and work are 'dirty/lower class diversions' from making money in a nice clean office environment. Peter
Got my first motorcycle in 1966. My grandmother said Jewish boys don't belong on them. Oye Vey Talk about group stereotypes....
I'm a minority: I speak English and willingly do the 'dirty work.' Peter
In this month's issue of "Classic Toy Trains" magazine, there was an editorial that touched on just this issue. While there are an estimated 130,000 people in the US who are seriously into model railroading - most are white middle-age males. While the thrust of the article was the economic issue of new trains flooding the market -
deminishing the value of older trains, it did raise the issue of bringing new blood into the hobby.
Heh heh, that reminds me of something ... lately I've been listening to the jazz music channel on Direct TV, even though up to now jazz never interested me much. But then I began to feel very old, because I recalled reading not long ago that the vast majority of jazz fans, like model RR fans, are middle-aged, as well as white* males. Ah, the days of youth have passed (sigh).
* = the fact that most jazz fans are white is rather strange in a way, as of course most jazz musicians aren't.
Depends on the age group you're talking about.
I'm a jazz musician, actually, and I'm half-Italian half-Irish, and 36 years old...jazz has become VERY diverse, as far as the players.
Among the under-30 age group, it's very diverse these days. That's one of the things I happen to like about it, it's many different people with many different musical influences.
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents. :)
Talk about getting old, my wife and I were watching the Rock & Roll show on channel 13 Saturday Night. Can't believe jay Black is 62 years old.
Talk about getting old, my wife and I were watching the Rock & Roll show on channel 13 Saturday Night. Can't believe jay Black is 62 years old.
And I can't believe he hasn't retired yet ;). He's been doing that same schtick about being pitied for his gray hair for at least ten years now.
BTW, on the WCBS-FM simulcast, in a "backstage" interview with Cousin Brucie, Sammy Strain of the Imperials mentioned that the subway was one of the best places to rehearse.
Yeah, I'm a into Jazz, although to the 'purists' they'd hate to hear that I listen to CD 101.9, which many consider to be 'pop' or 'commerical' Jazz rather than a 'classical' Jazz station.
To each his own Jazz.....man.....
Yeah, I'm a into Jazz, although to the 'purists' they'd hate to hear that I listen to CD 101.9, which many consider to be 'pop' or 'commerical' Jazz rather than a 'classical' Jazz station.
You call that jazz?! ;) 88.3, man...
If I'm not mistaken, the correct format of CD 101.9 is "smooth Jazz". Kind of like K-Rock is "modern Rock", the distinction is made.
"Smooth .... Jazz .... CD 101.9!"
is the chant often heard between songs.
Though most of the stuff they play is smooth jazz, a lot of it is more R&B and even Motown (I don't think Gladys Knight or Marvin Gaye could pass as smooth jazz ...)
But Paul Hardcastle, Acoustic Alchemy, Spyro Gyra, Richard Elliot, Dancing Fantasy, et al are most definately smooth jazz.
Then you have some gray areas, such as Grover Washington Jr, who tends to lean toward funk jazz, and Gato Barbieri, Herb Alpert, and Chuck Mangione, who are more Latin Jazz.
Pat Methany (& his Group) are one of my favs on 101.9 (got most of his best stuff).
BMTman
That's all great stuff. I once attended a Gato Barbieri concert at Town Hall.
I hate when 101.9 plays R&B and Motown stuff. But the demos of the market may dictate such a strategy. I find that the later you listen, the better they are about playing "smooth Jazz".
p.s.- Expect this threat to be removed, while everyone else rants and raves about the relationship between minorities and railfanning.
Naaa. I expect that Thurston will add something here since I KNOW he listens to 101.9 too.
If you're ever driving in or around Philly, be sure to enjoy the sweet sounds of "WJJZ, 106.1"
"The Cat" (Gato Barbieri ;-) is one of my favs, along with the others I listed.
How do you like these -
Gato -
"Caliente" (entire album). "I Want You" is my favorite song on there, though they're all great.
Chuck Mangione -
"Give It All You Want"
"Hill Where the Lord Hides"
"XIth Commandment"
Herb Alpert -
"Rise" (entire album)
Grover Washington Jr -
"Mr Magic"
This is all serious kick-ass stuff.
Then there's everybody's favorite -
"Careless Whisper" by George Michael ...
Only WBGO, 88.3 plays real jazz.
>>> the fact that most jazz fans are white is rather strange in a way, as of course most jazz musicians aren't. <<<
Even more ironic is that the audiences for the blues are overwhelmingly white. Several well known blues musicians have stated that if it weren't for the white fans they could not make a living from their music.
Tom
Nicely put, TD.
Thar be some wisdom up at Concourse, I see...;-D
hre is one of my proffs i am a railfan & a blackman etc.. & semonole indian ....
lol !!!
And you know what that makes you?
An AMERICAN!!!!!!
hre is one of my proffs i am a railfan & a blackman etc.. & semonole indian ....
I know where the Seminole Indians come from but where do the semonole's come from? BTW: I couldn't view your proff either.
it is a original tribe ....black & native american indians ....
it is a original tribe ....black & native american indians ....
oh yes when you see many seminoles its hard to tell them from black american
i go out to this transit musum as often as i can.. see a few persons of color threre ...
its worth seeing these in operation !!
a lot of persons of color have been railfans for years !! This is one of the most unreported & underrepresented group of all time ...
Your photos are the best.
thank you very much i do it for the love of it ....thank you ....( smile ) .....lol!!!
This is one long assed thread.
Eric D. Smith
Hello all, I just got back from visiting your wonderful city yesterday!!
I actually managed to get a fair bit of railfanning in on the subway, and the great news is I got to try out almost every type of car (didn't manage a ride on an R40M or an R42). In an effort to keep my posts short I'll post in three parts. Part 1... Friday.
I flew Air Canada into Laguardia Friday afternoon and caught an M60 bus (an RTS) to the Astoria el, where I got on an (N)-train. Lo and behold what pulls in but one of the trains I most wanted to see, an R40 Slant!! I thoroughly enjoyed the (N) ride to my hotel near 34th-Herald Square station, where I met up with my parents who drove down.
Once checked into the hotel my parents went out to eat and since I wasn't hungry, what better way to spend supper time than riding a (Q) of R68's (or maybe R68A's, I can't tell the diff, the number was in the 5000's) across the Manny B. Boy, you guys aren't kidding about the snails pace across the bridge into DeKalb!! Were trains going that slow when the north side tracks were open?
I got off at Atlantic Ave and transferred to a Manhattan bound <5>, which much to my delight was a train of redbirds! I rode that until 14th street station when I decided I wanted to get a good look at some of the local stations rather than fly by them on the express (although that was cool too). A(6) of R62's (R62A's?) pulled in and brought me to 42nd-GCT, where I saw none other than the same <5> I had just gotten off pulling out!! Now I understand people's complaints about some expresses not being very express!!
I grabbed the Shuttle to Times Square just to ride what has got to be the shortest subway line ever. From TSQ I rode an (A) train of R44's to West 4th and transferred to an (F) train of R46's, so now I know the difference between an R44 and R46!
I got off the (F) train at 34th and met up with my parents again at the hotel, and such ended my Friday railfanning (but began a nice late night walk up to Times Square, it never ceases to amaze me how this city is still bustling at 11:00 at night!!).
Tomorrow... a Saturday of Q's, 4's, 5's, C's, F's, D's, 1's, S's and N's.
5001-5200 is R68A, north side was just as slow as south side.
I've been away from the board for a few days (moved to new apt.), so I don't remember if we ever came to a resolution on the "Brown N" thread from a few weeks ago....
However, just today, I saw what was probably the "Brown N" myself, on the last car of a "Slant" pulling out northbound from 8th Street around 5:40 PM.
Hard to say exactly what color it was- a white letter against a background that looked to me a perfect blend of Sixth Avenue Orange and J/M/Z Brown......
It definately was NOT the Yellow used on the N from 1967-79- I have a few maps from that era, and also remember the R46s on Queens Blvd with the Old Yellow N.
I can't figure what color it's supposed to be, but the picture that was posted was accurate.
Was there ever a plan to run the Sea Beach permanently along the Eastern Division, OR along 6th Ave to Queens Blvd, CPW, or Concourse?
Cool! Thanks for confirming my experience.
I take it you didn't have a camera handy.
<<<"I take it you didn't have a camera handy.">>>.
No, sorry, I wasn't railfanning, and had actually forgotten the whole matter- I was just watching the train leave the station and I saw it, and it hit me.
I was going to post about this on Saturday and take a picture but i didn't get a chance because I am the leader of a gaming team...well anyway I saw the car, the lead car....#4192 with the Brown N...I was at 34th Street when I got it but I couldn't get off the train in time to take the picture of the sign. Ahh, Well....better luck next time.
Vek
Could it be a remnant of when the ran a train through Montague terminating at Chambers? The problem is I think that was an R.
As has been mentioned here many times, the Fourth Avenue/Chambers Street service was indeed a branch of the R, not the N.
David
I prefer to call it white on orange. It was in service on the N Line this Saturday the lead southbound motor when I went R68A sound recording for BVE.
I'm going to guess it was/is on the R40 rollsigns "just in case" (as are other designations which aren't used.) It is technically possible to route the Sea Beach via Nassau St, after all.
(Deep breaths, Fred. I just said it was possible.)
:-) Andrew
Why would Fred mind? It would run via bridge -- the Williamsburg Bridge.
However, just today, I saw what was probably the "Brown N" myself, on the last car of a "Slant" pulling out northbound from 8th Street around 5:40 PM. Hard to say exactly what color it was- a white letter against a background that looked to me a perfect blend of Sixth Avenue Orange and J/M/Z Brown......
Now this is getting interesting. I also saw a DIAMOND N with a brownish background in the middle of an R-46 R train running through Grand Ave. this afternoon. I thought it was just my frazzled braincell playing tricks on me (grin). Glad to know that others have also seen it!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Nice cover pic!
Wait till ya see the rest of the book and the full colour back cover as well!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
does it have the new 63rd street connection? and the post Manny Bridge Tracks
does it have the new 63rd street connection? and the post Manny Bridge Tracks
Hi Bob,
You betcha! All the post-9-11 changes as well. The only things I couldn't find that I was really looking for were the car/yard assignments for services post Dec. 16th, the track layout of Clifton Yard on the SIRT and the new homeball numbers on the West End line (although I think I will have these soon).
All the route markers are effective the 16th (without seeing the new official map a few might be off, but the V is on there, the F is through 63rd, the G is shown as owl-service only on Queens Blvd and a terminal at Court Square).
There's a to-scale closeup of South Ferry and a few pages have been re-done to improve page flow. There's a map of what used to be at both Queensboro Plaza and Atlantic Ave (L). I now show most of the PATH signals and a few more signs, new full-colour front and back covers and a whole lot more.
The book is in final production today and tomorrow, and I expect to have a good quantity in my hot little hands ready to ship on Friday. I've received a good number of orders this past week and I've ensured that I will have enough copies to send out on the weekend.
For some reason the Transit Museum hasn't been returning my calls, so don't look for it there unless they order some from me. If anybody wants to drop by Grand Central and request it from them, it might help.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Are you still going to produce foldups; color maps; laminated? Lots of people who've seen the book would like that.
Are you still going to produce foldups; color maps; laminated? Lots of people who've seen the book would like that
Funny you should mention those....
I spoke with my printer this afternoon about doing a laminated version and the best price I could get was 75 cents per page in addition to the printing costs. That would add $48 to the cost of every book!! Safe to say, there ain't going to be any laminated versions any time soon < grin >.
Colour fold-ups or large-scale is indeed a possibility, but after putting in 2 1/2 months of 18+ hour days, I'm not planning on doing it any time soon. I want to start flying again in the wake of post-911 airspace, and I'm going to donate a fair percentage of my free time to that hobby as well as spending some more time with my better half! I might get back to the colourization of everything in the new year.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
I think I've seen the R-40 N you are talking about. The color appears to be burnt orange, not unlike the color used by the Texas Longhorns sports teams (I'm definitely overanalyzing here). I think it's supposed to be orange, but the window is probably so dirty that it almost looks brown.
While the maps used a pure yellow, some of the signs lookd orange with the light shining through. On the R-46's, the background of the N definitely looked orange, almost like 6th Av. This was obviously to make it more legible. Since it is hard to darken yellow, they cheated by adding red. But then with the 1979 colors they switched to the lighter yellow with black letter. Even today if you magnify the maps, you'll see that the yellow used is filled with red dots to make it darker. Then right before the Metrocard were systemwid, there was a poster listing all the stations that had it so far that used the light orange normally used for 6th Av. on the N & R bullets, with white letters, while BDF&Q were a deep orange that was almost red. So this sign people are seeing was probably either an experiment (I'm sure it's probably cheaper to use all white letters), or perhaps printed by different people or something. I think the best way to darken it without compromising the hue is to use gold.
I was on the said slant N train riding northbound from Court Street to Lexington Avenue around 3:30 PM this afternoon and I can confirm the brown N on the tail.
It's like I've thought since I've been reading the Brown-N posts.....we need a picture.
Any of you MTA guys can help??
I posted one before.
aw shucks....I must have missed it.
Mr. Greenberger:
The first time I saw you pic, it defintely looked brown...now it looks orange...when I saw it myself, it was in motion, and I honestly couldn't tell for sure the color...
I've said it a number of times during this discussion..maybe the plan wasn't an N to go from Sea Beach to Eastern Division, but to the IND instead......
I should mention that the R train behind that had one of my favorite conductors (must be between middle and old aged) who always talks with flair:
(This is-uh Lexington Avenue, 59 Street, transfer here for your 4, 5 and 6 trains, wait here for the N and W trains. This here is an R train, it is Queens bound, local stops, to 71st/Continental, Forest Hills, our next stop will be Queens Plaza, step in and watch the doors...)
Anyone know who I'm talking about? This conductor was on the R-46 R train behind the said slant N train this afternoon. I also heard him last week on an R-32 R train consist.
With the MTA now having reached V, W and Z, there are precious few letters left for any 2nd Avenue line or any other new lines in the future...apparently.
There's a parallel in MTA nomenclature and abandoned right of ways. The Rockaway and Evergreen Branches were allowed to deteriorate to non-use, and the Bushwick and Bay Ridge branches are used by a few freights. Once abandoned--never revived.
In the past, the MTA has used H, K, T and #8 for routes. You have perfectly good symbols lying around that aren't being used.
Can someone explain the peculiar policy of abandoning a designation once that particular line has been eliminated? (Yes, KK/K have been used for two different lines).
www.forgotten-ny.com
Dunno myself, but now that UPN is bankrupt, perhaps the TA can recycle the square, circle and triangle as 2nd avenue line designators. No numbers or letters, just shapes. :)
X and Y can always be used for the main 2nd Avenue services, while Q (extended from 57th Street) will most likely be used for the 2nd Avenue/Broadway service. You still got H, K, P, T and U left. The #8 can be the new designation for the weekday Parkchester #6 local.
I still maintain that the TA made a mistake in converting to
single letter routes in the late 1980s. Doing so considerably
reduced the mnemonic value of the system.
The H and K share the distinction of being twice used for
short-lived routes (modulo the single/double letter thing).
Both were revived in the 1980s, or was it the early 90s, the
K 8th avenue local service and the H for the rockaway
three-way (HHH) shuttle.
The letters I and O are traditionally avoided because of numeral
confusion, although since there isn't a zero train, I don't see the
problem with the latter. There seems to be some superstitious
reason why X isn't used, and of course the P train, well,
make your own joke. The U, I dunno, looks too much like a V?
I couldn't even guess why in this latest go-round of the MB
reconstruction, powers that be chose W for West End rather than
T which had been used in the 1970s.
Dammit, Jeff! There you go being LOGICAL again ... we'll have none of that. (should I say "LOL"?)
BRAILLE.
avid
I couldn't even guess why in this latest go-round of the MB
reconstruction, powers that be chose W for West End rather than
T which had been used in the 1970s.
For the same reason the President's nickname is "Dubya" not "Tee"?
Moo! :)
I think U is avoided for the same reason that 'i' is avoided.
Notice that they both can be used in conversation meaning yourself or an individual. Obviously, this could cause confusion when referring to the 'U' or the 'i' train.
BMTman
I can't take the U train but U can I belive??
"T" was used in the 1960s and was gone with the opening of the Chrystie Street Connection in November 1967. There probably aren't many riders (outside of railfans) who would either recognize "T" as an old West End designation or care.
David
Oh, was that the lineage? I thought there was still a TT
shuttle on the books into the early 70s?
Nope, the TT rode off into the sunset on Jume 30, 1968. The B began running 24/7 the following day, when the 57th St.-6th Ave. station finally opened.
I will never forget it - and I resented the TA for years for cancelling it because it removed a decent Astoria - Broadway EXPRESS, replacing it with the horrible RR. Long live the W (now if they could only re-name it back to T) ;-)
Today I saw 10-car #3 trains. I guess they've been that way since the 3 train has been shortened in route. Also, a couple of weekends ago, I was waiting at the 116-Broadway sta., and I saw a northbound #1 train bypass the station on the center track. I never saw a train on the center track--until then!!!!
PS> Does anybody know why Z-train service is still suspended?? Did the peak hour J service increase or remain the same since the Z suspension--and is that temporary??
Tony
Z Train is NOT suspened, I saw about 3 of them this morning @ Eastern Parkway, loaded with passengers and heading into Manhattan! (Note: This was at about 7:15am today or yesterday for that matter, LOL!)
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
today i saw that i still an the # 1 WEST COAST transit photographer ...............period !!!
yea man bring your chumpion you said can wihip me in WESTCOAST TRANSIT PHOTOGRAPHY ............lol!!
Regards, Salaam Allah to ........
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Yes the No.3 Line is now a 10 car line using the 240th fleet.
Which of the following car will be seen on the first V train on Dec 16?
A. R-32
B. R-38
C. R-44
D. R-46
E. others (R-40S,40M,42; or R-68,68A)
F. any above
If you chose E, please specify
D
I really, really doubt it will be anything other than an R46 or maybe R32.
:-) Andrew
D. R46 exclusively. The TA wants to put the best cars appearance wise on the new line.
R46 exclusively. The TA wants to put the best cars appearance wise on the new line.
Aparently the TA's idea of best looking cars is different from mine. Yech!
:-) Andrew
Sure the windows are scratched, just like any other cars. But look at the walls. No scratches at all due to the material used. The brown wall paneling is not scratched either. The yellow and red seats do not have chipping paint like the R32's. The R46 has a very dependable HVAC system. Jamaica takes better care of the R46's than they do the R32's. Not too many dead motors on the R46 either.
True, true and true. I just think the R46 is a gernerally ugly car.
:-) Andrew
hmm... i can always send you some marta cars in trade for the r46... i would trade these wood-paneling opto craps for anything nyc has ....
love your nyc subway cars :)
I just think the R46 is a gernerally ugly car.
Respectfully gotta disagree. While I actively dislike the absence of a railfan window, I have to say they are not half bad from a passenger's point-of-view. The yellowish-bron colours work much better than the 68s' stainless steel and I like the door guard partitions better than the R-44's (as a Big Guy, I like to sit on the transverse seats next to these and allow my shoulders to intrude into the doorway when seated). I'd prefer an R32's bench seats and railfan window, but for everything else, I gotta go with the 46s.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3 NOW AVAILABLE!
Go figure. I just think the fake wood motiff is very retro, and not in a good way. I actually kind of like the stainless steel interior of the R62 and R68 series. It's not gorgeous either, but it's cheery. The traditional tan interior of the redbirds and R32, R38, R40, and sort of in the R42, R44 and R46 isn't ugly, per se, just dull. For interiors, I guess the best is the R142.
But what really makes the R44 and R46 ugly in my eyes are the exteriors. Big and grey and featureless. And those LCD's seen on them since the GOH--they look like an old calculator! (The R68 series isn't gorgeous either, but at least they're more silver than grey, and have rollsigns.)
All purely subjective opinion. The R46 seems to be a good, reliable car class, and should indeed be in serivice for many years to come.
:-) Andrew
Well, gotta understand, the R-46's were initially intended to be used for the still then unbuilt Second Avenue line--the one they were starting to build in the mid-late '70s....and the general appearance is soooo similiar to that of the LIRR and MNRR electric/third rail powered MU's....I mean, take a good look at a typical LIRR M-1 or M-3, and take a look inside a R-44 or R-46, and tell me, do they have very similiar interiors? :-D
Stuart, RLine86Man
I'm on your side here. Faux wood has been out of vogue for a long time -- and for good reason.
The R-46 goes overboard on the plastic. Sure, it's cheap and it's relatively easy to clean. It's also tacky.
(And, from the functionality perspective, do your hands fold up nicely into squares? Mine don't, but most of the handrails have square cross sections. Ouch.)
My vote for most attractive? The R-42 (not to be confused with the R-40M, which looks very "worn out"). Simple but elegant. The R-38 is a close second.
Do your hands fold up nicely into squares?
Well in may case, due to nerve damage in my left arm/hand, the left hand more or less does!
As opposed to those rolling garden sheds? If it comes to asthetics, the R46 wins hands down. Longevity, well that's something the R32 will forever be known for.
R46 air conditioning is generally for the birds while R32's are iceboxes. That's gonna come into play in this Winter of Global Warming (eh, Mr. Glickman?)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Gotta surprise: all subway cars I know of have AC fully operational year-round as enviromental control. It's management that sets the priorities during inspections....keeping the passengers comfortable on their way to work is the TA's goal. Thanks Alot. Peter
It ain't gonna happen, but it would be funny as hell if on the opening day of V service the first train that showed up was a 10 car group of R-26/28 Redbirds with platform extenders on the doors.
A video camera pointed outside the cars to get the reactions of the passengers waiting on the platforms would bring back some classic looks of suprise, shock and probbly some disgust as the train pulled into the station...
my answer:A. R-32. i assume because there are more R-32's than there are R-46's available for use. the R-46's are taken up on the G, F, and R. but, then as usual i could be wrong.
"i assume because there are more R-32's than there are R-46's available for use"
There are 595 R-32s (not all of which are assigned to Jamaica) and 752 R-46s (all of which are assigned to Jamaica. In what universe are there more R-32s than R-46s?
By assignment, the V is to be all R-46. Will an occasional R-32 make its way to the V? Best answer: maybe.
David
They have shown with the (F) that if they want to make a route absolutely, positively no exception, nothing but R46, they certainly could.
thats why i said that i was assuming. i wasn't sure about how many R-32's and R-46's there are. i see more R-32's than i see R-46. so no need to get jumpy. thank you for clearing it up for me though.
D
E: As we speak, Mike H. & his crew down in CI are preparing an 11 car
train of R1-9s to be used as the ceremonial first train. This is
in keeping with the new slogan: Queens Blvd Service Changes: A
Step Backward". After all, as Mr. Bauman likes to remind us, service
levels WERE better in the 1950s.
I got info that the motorman for that consist MUST be OPTO qualified and will have to reach around the windshield to operate the triggers and caps.
ROTFL!
I would love to see the R-42 and R-68 on the V. But, eventually it won't happen since 1/2 of R-46 desination sign already programmed into "V QB local."
So? The R-46's electronic signs have routes other than the E, F, G, R, V, and Grand Street shuttle. That doesn't mean you're going to see one on the W (although one was spotted on the Q).
Obviously, no one actually read the question. The only answer is the one that was not listed: None of the above. If anyone can find me a V train in service on Dec 16, I'll pay them $1.00.
If I crank the sign myself, do I get the dollar?
Or what if it's before December 16? I boarded a V at Coney Island on November 1:
(And no, I didn't touch that sign. The only sign I changed in recent memory was on a southbound 5 that became a northbound 2 at the South Ferry loop during a GO early this year. Naturally, I set it to one of the 2/5 combo signs -- not that it helped, since it pointed the wrong way after going through the loop.)
Hi, all. Obviously, the poster meant 12/17.
On Dec. 17,2001, a gaggel of R/46s and an Eyecatching R/110B will blaze a trail into the 21st Century. (I Hope). Be nice to see it in revenue service again.
Even on the "L" to give the lone R/143 a companion for balance.
avid
An R110B on the V? Is that what you're saying?
:-) Andrew
Yes
avid
how about a train consisting of... , an R1, a pair of R30, Apair of R32, and a 4 car set of R143s
Will there be any R-143s running on the BMT 14th Street Canarsie Line today? If so please let me know.
#3 West End Jeff
I saw one today! It was at the 6th Ave/14th St station, heading westbound on the (L). The LED read "not in service".
I also had another surprise at that station. The signs suddenly have the (V) instaed of the (S)--almost 2 weeks early.
:-) Andrew
Did you or anyone else on Sub Talk ride on the R-143s?
#3 West End Jeff
I did, after waiting almost a half hour for it. It was well worth the wait!
How were the R-143s. Were they nice and quiet like their R-142 brethren?
#3 West End Jeff
Quieter than the R142As, which are fellow Kawasaki cars, but a little noisier than the Bombarider R142s. But only because you can hear the traction motors. The R143 rides better than both R142 classes, I think.
it is comfortable, but there is room for improvement. i still find the Bom. R-142 to be the most comfortable, most stable.
Yes but you just have to hope they don't stall out between stations.
I'm planning to go into New York one of these days and ride a train of R-143s. I hope too that the train doesn't stall between stations. That would be a drag.
#3 West End Jeff
I guess a ride on the L will be on my list of things to do next fall.
I hope the ride on the "L" train wthin the next few weeks just to see what the R-143s are like.
#3 West End Jeff
Im going to try to ride that train the Next coming Wednesday. Im going to try to make it for the 12:56 8 Ave.
If you ride on the R-143s please tall me what it is like.
#3 West End Jeff
I will and I'll also try to see what the diffrances are between the R142A and R143.
I hope to have the chance to get into New York and do some railfanning and one of the things to do would be to try and ride a train of R-143s.
#3 West End Jeff
I have not yet had the pleasure of riding an R143. I look forward to doing so, but it may be awhile.
:-) Andrew
At what time(s) does this R-143 arrive at Union Square sta.?
I took a quick trip to South Station today at lunchtime, and saw on Track #1 the following MBTA Commuter Rail consist:
N-1712-768-767-769-770-702-505-1124-S
768-770 are the four newly accepted bilevels (out of 15 due). I walked through 768, and they look like exact duplicates of their older sibilings (of course they have that "new car smell"). On the outside, however, there is one addition: pantograph gates inbetween the cars.
Here's a link to the NETransit Web site, with all MBTA car rosters.
The Kawasaki bilevels in particular are here.
I rode it this morning from ENY Yard to Eighth Avenue for the ceremonies. Festivities were from 9:35-10:15 with many TA and Kawasaki people there. The train made the 10:16 interval. No problems at all. It ran great. Train was laid up after arriving in Canarsie. It will re-enter service this afternoon in time for the rush. I shot a ton of video and a cab ride from ENY to 8th Ave. I will try to get some images to Dave as soon as I can.
-Mark
cool
i wonder what its first problem will be.
Overcrowding, natch.
how were the voices, signs etc.? what was your opinion in the interior?
The female voice is a bit peppier. It's probably a different person doing them on the 143's. She also lists the transfers instead of the male voice (the same one from the R142's), who is limited to the "stand clear of the closing doors, please."
The interior is like that of the R142A. The interior "moving ad" signs were cool.
Oh yes, the "moving MTA ad" signs. Those are cool. First of their kind that I've ever seen in the NYC subway. They're fun to watch. Also I like the female voice better on the R143 (it sound more real) and that it announces all transfers (the way it should have been done on the R142s and R142As). And it announces the correct transfers at Union Square as well as the soon-to-be correct transfer at 6th Avenue.
What about the railfan view and passing through?
You can pass between cars, but I haven't checked the railfan window.
Can they "half" the full width cabs when not in use to allow passing through or extra seating?
No. The instant they did, someone would cite a safety concern.
The design for new tech is basically the same....WMTAGMOAGH is correct. 'A' cars, the end of each trainset (there are two in a series totalling four) cannot be 'passed through' by riders. CI Peter
They should, it is that much more capacity. You also need to remember that some NYers would immediately freak out as soon as they saw the potential for someone to hide in there and then jump out to attack them.
Is the cab full width or is there an empty space? CI Peter
Transverse cab like on WMATA.
The Philly BSS trains are set up this way and nobody has ever complained.
That royally sucks. I hate these new designs. Maybe when the trains go OPTO they can half the cabs.
I was on the R143's today. Interesting story: I was on a Canarsie-bound L train arriving at Broadway Junction. I decided to stay on the train to East 105 Street. Lo and behods, as the train was entering E105, I saw the unmistakable end of the train of R143 cars on the layup track. I waited a few minutes for the train to come in and I rode it back to Broadway Junction, where I got off at around 12:20.
Hey Mark----was your favorite "Coney Island Historian" on board ?????
So Mark, how will Div. B fare with it's new toys?
Did you like the train?
How about from your job's point of view, as a C/R did you like it?
If the cab set up is anything like the R142/142A the Conductors and Train Operators will love that train.
Funny, I haven't been qualified on the 143 yet. I probably won't now until more cars come in. But I hope that you're right about that.
Some of the Highlights the Crew liked about the R142/142A's were 1. Seat is comfortable 2. The fast acceleration and deceleration rate of the train. 3. The cabs are almost sound proof. You can't really hear whats going on outside. Also any trouble that comes up will be noted on the computer screen in front of you which is the TOD. Then again some of our R142 have defects and it don't show on the TOD. I had a hung gard light but the computer showed no problems train line.
How bout the TOD messages of problems that do not exist???? Hey, had any of the wonderful door warnings??? Soundproof is great, there is even a microphone for the 'vertically deprived' but there is no adjustment for mike gain. Wanna howl? Just ping your PTT with the door wide open. Love that 'last stop' message.....great for end of the day. CI Peter
Can someone tell me what the automatic annoucement says upon arrival into Rockaway parkway . Does it announce Canarsie or mention anything about the B42 Bus.
I don't remember, but I did note that it announced the transfer for the B15 to the Airport at New Lots. So it probably does mention the B42.
The R142A announces the M60, why not announce the B15, although it gets much less publicity. Maybe they should announce that the A train goes to JFK as well.
it does anounce the B15 bus except at night
I know.
The female voice announces "This is Canarsie, Rockaway Parkway."
Yes you mean when sometimes you open the doors and the TOD reads Car 6337 R2 is stuck open when all the doors should be open. Then goes out when you close the doors. The last stop message goes great after waiting 10 Minutes to get into the Terminal.
We can't even test those announcements properly....you punch em up and wait....and wait....and wait....then you pick up your tools and lunchbag to hear em just before the system 'outs de lights.' Hey, it's a lot of fun. CI Peter
Any pictures?
:-) Andrew
Great! Now next Wednesday I will try to ride the R143 for maybe 2 or 3 trips.
Yes, the R143 really is a nice train. So nice, that I thought about changing my handle to "R143 L". Just kidding, but it is my new favorite train. I rode it today from 2:30 to 4:00 from 8th Avenue to Canarsie and back and then to Union Square. It didn't take very long for me to catch it. I took the 6 to Union Square and headed to the L platform. After 20 minutes, I got tired of standing at Union Square so I boarded the next L train (slants) and got off at 8th Avenue. A few minutes after my slant R40 train entered 8th Avenue, I saw a train in the distance at 6th Avenue with a red light over its two headlights. Sure enough, it was the R143. As it got closer, I could see the red LED circled L. Time for my first R143 trip.
While the R143 was relaying, I looked at the L line map. It had all the correct transfers, including the V at 6th Avenue. It also has new subway maps that show the V in service. The walls have a bluish-gray tint, so they're not as bright as the R142/R142As (a good thing), but brighter than the R40s and 42s (also a good thing). They ride nicer and are quieter than the R142As. Also the female voice does all transfers and announces the V at 6th Avenue (even though it's not stopping there yet) and the Q and W at Union Square. But you can still hear the traction motors which sound exactly like the R142A. Also nice is the single-leaf door at the car ends. I like it better than the double-leaf doors on the R142s and R110A. Overall, a very nice train. Hope it's a success.
In my opinion (hate to be the killjoy), this is Kawasaki's last chance to endear the MTA and New Yorkers after the whole GOH debacle with the R-142A order. If this series comes up with the amount of bugs and defects that their IRT sisters did over the past two years, then I will be one of those who see to it that KHI will never get another contract in this town. And I can back that up to, because I know the head of my school's NYPIRG branch on a first-name basis.
What debacle with the R142As? From what I've been hearing on this board and from what I see in service, it's the Bombardier cars that are having the really big problems. I've noticed a few doors getting stuck and that the brakes squeal. I did hear of a piece falling off of one R142A, but where are all the major problems that are keeping the whole Kawasaki R142A fleet sidelined? I've only heard of a large number of Bombardier R142s being sidelined for brake mods. But you know what? I still see a lot of R142s in service too.
Don't blame Kawasaki or Bombardier, it's not their fault! They build quality products for other transit agencies. The blame should be placed squarely on the politicians up in Albany. They're the ones who insisted the cars be made in New York state, even if the companies didn't have a plant in New York to make them in. From what someone posted here, I thought I read that Bombardier's Plattsburgh plant amounts to nothing more than a makeshift facilty in the old Air Force Base and that the people building them are temporary workers who will be out of work once the contract is finished, just as they were before Bombardier came to town. But look at many other transit and railroad companies around this country and around the world that use Bombardier products. Bombardier has a lot of products on order too. Would they, if their products were crap? I don't think so.
OTOH, Kawasaki has something a little more permanent in Yonkers, converted from the old Otis Elevator plant. I heard that only the final assembly is done in Yonkers on the R142As. But other orders were done there too, if I'm not mistaken. PATH's PA4 cars were done there as were the bi-level LIRR cars and the MBTA/MARC/VRE double-deckers. Does anyone know if any of these are trouble-prone cars?
Blame Albany if these cars fail. You and your friend in NYPIRG should be pressing Albany to actively recruit companies to build permanent facilities in New York state and locate permanent business here, instead of forcing companies to build subway cars here for a year or two, just so they can inflate their already huge egos some more.
[instead of forcing companies to build subway cars here for a year or two, just so they can inflate their already huge egos some more.]
By that I mean Albany doing the forcing. They should be out recruiting companies to build permanent facilities here, encouraging them to come to New York on their own free will. Not forcing companies to create makeshift faciliites just to win a contract. The way the car contracts are being handled now is not only bad for the people of New York, but it's also bad business for Kawasaki and Bombardier.
There was an article done on the way Kawasaki does business and finishes car-building at its Yonkers plant, and in the process stirring up a lot of controversey. People in that town were screaming at the Yonkers City Council to do something about it but they were non-responsive. I don't exactly remember whether they pressed their assembly members or state senators about this, but considering that Ass. Silver and Senator Bruno disagree on EVERYTHING (with Gov. Pataki caught in the crossfire at times) it wouldn't have helped much. So yes, more pressure needs to be put on Albany to whip these companies into shape.
I didn't know that Bombardier used an old AF shed for its final assembly of its cars. Maybe that explains why cars that are produced at the more permanent facilities in Michigan and the Western Ontario come out better than stuff that goes thru Plattsbugh (consider the early electrical problems that the R-62As had, which incidentially also came thru Plattsburgh). Thanks for the tidbit.
R-62A's never came through Plattsburgh because plattsburgh never existed back then. they started from La Pocatiere Quebec, then stopped at Barre Vermont, then the last Assembly was Auburn, New York
In terms of travelling subway cars, that's not a bad road trip, but the transatlantic cruise wins hands down!
-Robert King
"then the last assembly was Auburn, New York" -- Bombardier's Auburn plant never assembled any rail equipment to my knowlege. BTW, that Auburn plant once was Alco's diesel engine plant. 18V251C, anyone.
oh. because everytime i ride and R-62A, it mentions assembly at Auburn New York on its name plate
Ok, I'll check it out.
ok
Bom. crews at 239th are out of that Yonkers location...I don't know about 'final assembly'....seems they tie up tracks with trains that do not go and TA is now on the move about it. Peter
I recommend getting the cars from anywhere in the world, the MTA should try to get succesful companys from Russia, China, India. The railroad from thoses countrys build there own cars from scratch. I read a book on how after independance from britain, India mantained and built from scratch their own steam engines.
OUCH! Trainsets from 'All India Railways.' Thankyouverymuch. Biggest problem with that idea is logistics: the VacTrak vacuum train is German built and had a problem found by TA techs...the part wasn't readily available by itself so a whole axle was shipped air freight...Coney Island shops found their equipment didn't fit the installation...so the engine was towed to Pennsylvania with the part.
China, Russia and India have their part in TA...I work with these guys every day and I love it. We need something more like GM/GE/Westinghouse. CI Peter Thankyouverymuch
The R142A had it share of problems. They had about 3 or 4 cases where the Trip cock fell off sidelining the R142A fleet. Also the R142A had it share of Door problems and cases of stuck brakes.
Now the R142 (BOM) they seem to had door and brake problems also but they also just seem to drop dead between stations. This past Saturday a R142 Uptown No.2 train stalled out at Hoyt Street messing up the No.1,2 service for 40 Minutes.
But that was in the beginning, right. It's not still happening now, is it?
I don't know about the r142A's but the R142 No.2 trains are still having problems.
In your daily life there are engineering standards which assure your safety. In the home there are electric and plumbing standards. In the car, the most obvious is the brake light lenses. On subway cars are standardised brake control systems specified by TA contract. These brake control systems are 'rail common' and assure your safety...as yet, combined with regenerative braking systems of the SOACs, are not working properly and have been adjusted to 'make trains go.' Bom. and Kaw. have problems to be resolved...the trains do stop properly...but sometimes they don't start... or stop prematurely. 'Let MTA get you there...Car Inspectors assure your safety.' CI Peter
it might not get the next order anyway. when the next order is set up for bids (thats if financial problems don't stop it) they might be out of the question, because of disability to crank out big orders.
why are you saying that this is their last chance?
What was the reaction from the unwashed masses. Dick and Jane Commuter. How were they impressed, or ho-hum.
avid
I wasn't there, but my boss was. He told me that while the train accelerated nicely and moved well between stations, it ran late because passengers were "oohing" and "aahing" over the new train, which impacted on the dwell time. It's hoped that people will get over this quickly.
David
"it ran late because passengers were "oohing" and "aahing" over the new train, which impacted on the dwell time"
Were the passengers oohing and aahing in the doorways preventing the doors from closing? Oohs and aahs don't usually cause trains to run late !
Bill "Newkirk"
IF the door control system works like R142s, passengers can stick a foot in the door...it'll jog 3 times...fourth time it stops. Now the C/R has to jog the doors, wait, punch a canned announcement up, wait, jog, wait, make an 'inoffensive announcement' and... CI Peter
I'm not surprised that the passengers were oohing and aahing since thay haven't ran new cars on the 14th Street-Canarsie Line "L" train for more than thirty years. Its about time they ran new cars on that line.
#3 West End Jeff
30 years??
nah, they got slant R-40s, and R-40M's in the 80's.
before that they had 16's and 27/30's.
I think what Jeff means is brand new cars -- other than a few trainsets of R-42s in 1969, the R-16s back in 1955 were the last fleet to make its debut on the Eastern Division (minus the Wavecrest A train, of course). All trains since then have been handed down from either the IND or the BMT Southern Division after newer cars arrived for those lines (and after the R-160s start showing up to replace the R-38/40/40M/42s, I fully expect the R-32s to close out their lives on the Eastern Division while the new trains go to the other lines).
You're right that I meant brand new cars on the Canarsie Line
#3 West End Jeff
Oh, I gotcha--right, NEW cars. oops, sorry, Jeff.
You're probably 100% right about the R-32's, unfortunately.
The R160 are due to replace the current cars on the Eastern div. lines. got that from the mta web site awhile back. they are suppose to go EAST NEW YORK YARD and PITKIN YARDS[five car sets=pitkins,four car sets=eny]Bye bye R42 40M,you were nice in your day,but the time has come for you to away.........
What they say now about where the R-160s will go and what they do when they arrive may be two completely differnt things. I'll applaud the MTA if they actually do a 1-for-1 replacement on the Eastern Division, but given the fact that a lot of the MTA brass and pols in the past have wanted their new trains running through midtown Manhattan (more exposure, more good publicity, more votes), I'd be really surprised to see two car orders in a row end up at the East New York Yard.
If MTA wants to showcase the R-160 cars (when they come out) they should do so on a line with plenty of customers to show off to, the A, E, or F lines would've been the best choices. In fact I think it's fitting they test them on the BEST (by far) line in the whole NYCT system, the A line. Takin' The A Train.....In Style!! lol As for the new cars orders, do remember the MTA brass are not truly the brightest bulbs in the box, and the cars could end up anywhere they choose unfortunately.
I heard either the R160s or the R160As were to go to the A and C lines, the other to who-knows-where...The order will be split between Kawasaki and Bombardier...ack!
Cleanairbus
[The order will be split between Kawasaki and Bombardier...ack! ]
How can you say that when the contract has yet been awarded, no less bids received from these or other companies?
That doesn't follow. Even if the R-160's end up at East New York and Pitkin, that doesn't mean they will displace the equipment currently at East New York at Pitkin.
If the R-44's go, I won't miss them one bit.
damn u got hate in ur blood for the R42s and stuff. Don't get me wrong. i love the new technology and all, but once the R42s R40s all leave, the Eastern division aint gonna be the same. after all the good cars leave stuff like redbirds, and some old equipment go, subways won't be the same. i love the new tech, but some of it sux. think about it. MTA wants to try this CBTC crap, and when they do, Motorman will be hired less, and then eventually will do something else other than operating a train. they gonna have them sit in the cab and monitor the systems. but for me to sit in a cab and watch a train run itself? gimme a newspaper, cause i will be bored before the first trip is over. besides they cannot automate all the subway lines, not enuf money and not enuf time. they prolly will not even pay them as well as they pay them today.
CBTC blows!!!!
Safety
Attentiveness
Train control
ARE U ACCEPTING THE PROPER LINEUP?
TESTIFY! TESTIFY! WOOHOO! :D
I have the book (New York City Subway Cars) by James Clifford Greller which has pictures of R-42s running on the 14th Street-Canarsie line when those cars first entered service.
I remember riding on brand new R-42s on the Canarsie in 1969-70.
It must have been great at the time the R-42s first entered service on the Canarsie Line since before the R-42s entered service they were still running some BMT "Standards" on the Canarsie Line up until 1969.
#3 West End Jeff
Yep, rode on those, too. The R-7/9s began appearing on the Canarsie before the R-42s debuted; the first time I saw an R-7/9 train there was on January 5, 1969.
If I'm not mistaken the R-7/9s finished out their service life on the BMT Eastern division lines.
#3 West End Jeff
The same here I remeber the R 42 first coming to Canarsie and how exciting to see something new. My mom said to me Canarsie always had old trains. She was refering to the Standards.
but the oohs and aahs were not alot. i rode it again today and it was less than on tuesday. people don't care because they think its the R-142
OOOOOOOOOOOOOH! What line will it be running on? I assume the L. I'm there! Anyone have a timetable for it yet? I'm willing to wait for it. Is it running tomorrow?
It's been running on the L since Tuesday, about 15 hours a day, and is scheduled to run 7 days a week.
David
Anywhere a link to a photo of an R143? Haven't seen them yet.
RightHERE on this very site.
Peace,
ANDEE
I cannot believe what you've written. IT IS MOST OFFENSIVE!!!! Those dumb assed sentiments have been causing people like me trouble for years. HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT THERE AREN'T MORE MINORITY RAILFANS BECAUSE "ALL" MINORITIES ARE, OR ON THE WHOLE, DIRT POOR?! There were railfans long before there were computers and the Internet you know? When I started riding the Els and taking photographs back in 1972 I was seven years old and I'd already been collecting books, riding beneath them, and drawing the same for five years. Back in 1972, the fare on the NY system was fifty cents (it may have been thirty-five). Just think, my father and I used to ride on the whole system for a buck or less. You CANNOT judge a race (or an individual for that matter) by the size of a bank account. You're barely fifteen years old for Christ's sake! How did you get so dumb so quickly? These type of sentiments serve only to reinforce the misguided perceptions among people of color that all predominately white operations are racist and that is a damn shame. You're still a child, wholly dependant upon your family for support. How would you like it if someone judged you because you were incapable of paying your own bills? Under the circumstances, think about how ILLOGICAL that would be. It's time to grow up and think in terms of what it is to be HUMAN rather than what it is to be black, white, yellow, or whatever. That's what we all share you know, our humanity, and railfanning only serves to enhance the human experience. Black, white, rich or poor, ANYBODY can ride or watch a train. To do so is a very enjoyable experience and I can only hope that despite sentiments such as yours, that more people of color can come to enjoy it as I have.
Eric Dale Smith
All right, all right take it to email please.
I knew this was going to happen which is why I didn't post any comments on earlier threads.
Eric - you knew what you were in for but you went ahead anyway (this is not the first time you have done something like this - start a big controversy).
To be completely honest with you - if your intent is to disrupt this board and set people against each other, then you have achieved your goal (and if it wasn't you succeeded anyway).
Until now we were all content with just being railfans. Was it necessary to start breaking down along other criteria (alright I'll say it - racial lines). Nobody here cared what a person's ethnic/racial etc. background was until you brought it up.
Dave - I apologise for taking this a bit further. Personally I think that the comaradery that that all of us shared with each other in here has been dealt a serious blow. How it will be repaired, only time will tell. But I think you should keep the all the postings on this subject for a while longer and then delete them so people can see just how stupid and out of hand certain subjects can get.
Allan
Allan:
My intent was to relate a positive development and take pride in being a part of it. I refuse to stick my head in the sand and avoid controversy just so you and others can be "comfortable." Race and railfanning is a legimate subject since as a fellow white motorman/canductor at the BSM pointed out to me it has been (or at least perceived to be so) lilly white for too long. That said, if I make anyone uncomfortable by pointing out my blackness, then the problem rests with them, not with me. Remember that racism or the perception of such, is part and parcel of EVERY component of American life, especially railfanning, and as such it is a legitimate area to explore. If that means being controversial then so be it.
Eric Dale Smith
That said, if I make anyone uncomfortable by pointing out my blackness, then the problem rests with them, not with me.]
So if a white person is "proud of their race" that's racist but when a black person does it it's ok?
Nope. Every race or ethnicity has much to be proud of. My grandmother was of Italian descent and I celebrate her heritage gladly. It is one thing to promote one's ethnic background in a spirit of celebration of one's accomplishments; it is quite another to do so as a means of putting another group down. People are generally smart enough to know the difference.
Eric Dale Smith
>>> My intent was to relate a positive development and take pride in being a part of it. I refuse to stick my head in the sand and avoid controversy just so you and others can be "comfortable." <<<
Give your righteous indignation a rest Eric. Why did you start a new thread rather than responding to whichever message bothered you? Quite a few of us have already commented on WMATAGMOAGH's post. That is where your original post in this thread should have been without a flaming headline.
Tom
Amen! That's why I stood clear of it as well. It doesn't matter who or what you are - at least not here. That's one of many reasons I really like this place. And I feel largely that we'll continue on enjoying each other's company despite a few nasty turns. All of us are into a common thrill here, and I don't see that changing a bit. Hopefully a few have learned something else new here.
E mail & or a Chat Rooom ( elsewhere ) ...........yea !!!
thats how U do it !!!
Dave,
I do hope that this conversation goes to e-mail. But if it does get aggravating on here, please do your best to punish (i.e. remove handles) the individuals involved, not the majority of subtalkers. We realyl appreciate your site and would truly miss it!! -Nick
Exactly!
[You're barely fifteen years old for Ch---t's sake!]
Funny how when flaming him for making racist comments you yourself make ageist comments.
[You're barely fifteen years old for Ch---t's sake!]
Funny how when flaming him for making racist comments you yourself make ageist comments.
I'll have to agree, that was WAY out of line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW!!!! Hot stuff that needs a little cooling down. When I started in TA class, I was a little surprised by the small number of Black/Latino Car Inspectors. Arriving at my first assignment, there were even less. Most of the Black CIs are 'West Indian.' I asked people I know in TA offices and the answer repeated BY THE BLACK EMPLOYEES was that they don't want this work, that it is too dirty and beneath them. The opportunity is THERE FOR ALL, especially in programs run by TA for young men, especially 'minorities.' The pay is good and the future is bright for all who want a job. I only WISH I knew about this work years ago.
It is no different for subway/rail buffs. It is the interest in the trains, the tracks and the machinery that makes it all go. Most young African/Americans are being pushed into computer skills and IT employment because they can get a higher paying job without a complete college education. Such employment is coming to an end as more and more people become 'computer literate.' I was surprised to find out that you are the 'first' as no 'other' had any interest. I hope you are not the last. I had a machine shop teacher in High School many years ago who pushed the minorities into learning tool skills...THEY just weren't interested. Thirty years later, it's all the same. Peter
[Young A/A pushed into the IT arena because they can get decent pay without a college education]????
Are you speaking of entry level IT jobs?
I ask because I'm an African-American IT professional (with my college degree and certifications) and I can tell you that I'm in this profession because I enjoy working with networks and the challenges that come with it. Yes, the pay is very good, but that wasn't the factor for me choosing an IT career. I did consider a being a TA B/O and aiming towards moving on to being a T/O. I even went through the testing and pre-hiring process, but I realized that I would've enjoyed it in the beginning, but not too much longer than a few months.
I have a few friends who are IT professionals (also college educated, some grad level) too and I'm certain that they desired and chose IT careers and not "Pushed" into it.
I know for myself it was either this or a CPA.
Wayne
Eric, I think you took his remarks the wrong way.
He stated a demographic fact, that members of racial minorities are statistically poorer than nonmembers. This fact, AFAIK, is correct. That doesn't mean that every member of a racial minority is poor. (It certainly doesn't mean that every member of a racial minority is poor!)
He also pointed out that the typical railfan has significant expenses. Sure, it's possible to be a railfan without incurring such expenses. (Since I do most of my railfanning on the subway, but I take a lot of pictures, I have substantial costs for film and processing, but fares are cheap.)
He arrived at the conclusion that there are probably disproportionately few members of racial minorities in the railfan community. Not that there are none. Certainly not that there should be none. Where do you get the idea that he's judging anyone? He's simply making an observation based on demographics.
I think it's great that so many of us share this interest. I don't think it matters if some of us happen to be white, some black, and some the color of R-142 seats. (There! We're back on-topic.) Let's discuss our shared interest, shall we?
TUNNEL VISION
Taking the A Train, and Picking It Up With One Hand
By RANDY KENNEDY
"The New York City subway has not been whole since Sept. 11.
"But there is an alternate universe where it still is: unharmed, preserved, pristine.
"In this universe, the subway does not simply look the way it did on Sept. 10, 2001. It also looks the way it did in 1981 and 1941 and on Oct. 27, 1904, the day it opened. Sometimes it is covered in graffiti. Sometimes it is furnished with ceiling fans and cane seats. Sometimes it is on its way to the Polo Grounds."
Click link above for full story. (Registration required.)
--Mike
I shot this movie with my new digi cam on Saturday, Try this if you have the QuickTime browser plugin, if it doesn't work or you don't have the plugin, then go>
Here, and right click on PC010048.MOV and select save target or save link as and dl it
If all that happens is you hear sound and you see black, your monitor brightness is low, turn it up, and you'll see something!
Enjoy!
It won't download. Too many users maybe.
I'll violate my license and increase it to 1000 users:-)
On IE 5.0 with Quicktime plugin, it looks like it's not downloading, but it really is. Takes a few minutes, even with a highspeed connection.
It downloaded fine for me. That video is almost creepy. The station seems to just come out shawdows, yet still be in the darkness. What was that lit up object (like a booth), it looked like something blue was in it?
That booth was a NYPD booth that can be considered as trash...It's been sitting there unoccupied for like 2 years.
The movie was shot in between R142A cars with a Olympus C-3000
Click here for the movie you can see (QT Plugin required for this link)
Click here, and then right click on cityhall.mpg and click save target or link as and download away! You can actually see it now!
Link to NY Times article on subway modelers. I prefer the 1:1 scale models, however.
I prefer the 1:1 scale models, however.
So do I, but derailments and truck swaps are easier
in HO.
Good point, Jeff.
Also, tie replacement in HO won't give you a bad back or make you sweat either.
;-D
BMTman
I thought Jeff's scale was 12:1 or 12 inches to a foot.
I prefer the 1:1 scale models, however.
So do I, but derailments and truck swaps are easier
in HO.
Most importantly, storage space!
HeyPaul beat you to that Todd. He did say models.
A small group of us were at the Bay Ridge Model layout this past Saturday for the last week-end of their "Open House". Vern was there. He operated the R-21s & PCC for us.
I've seen some of his stuff (none of these were his) & they are very impressive.
Mr rt__:^)
Vern was there. He operated the R-21s & PCC for us.
Not just R-21s... you want to talk about mongrel consists? :)
What scale is that? I can't tell .....
--Mark
That's the MTH O scale Chicao & NYC sets, incl. one specially painted late one night < G >
Mr rt__:^)
Got your attention have I ?
Last week I needed to visit the TA's CES (Ctr Elect Shop) in Woodside & took BQE to get there. The RxR line to the Hell Gate bridge comes close to it near the Grand Central Pky. Anyhow, as I drove along there went by a ConRail, yes some of the cabs haven't been re-painted.
Then next came a Acela with MARC big and bold on the side. I thought how strange, first why does MARC has Acelas, second why was it going to Boston ?
That Saturday I picked up a copy of RailPace that explained that they were being tested on the NorthEast run. Sometimes you end up in the right place at the right time !
Mr rt__:^)
No offense but are you sure you don't mean a MARC AEM-7?
I suspect what Thurston saw was one of MARC's HH8's. MARC has joined the HH8 parade since commuter traffic on the Penn Line is growing rapidly. More electrics mean faster trains, as diesels are limited to 90 MPH while electrics are ok'd to 110.
If the motor had a big MARC on the side, then it's an AEM-7. The Baltimore Chapter NRHS's newsletter has a picture of MARC 4911. The HH8's have a big white side panel above a small MARC on the side. Rumor has it that the big white panel will be used for ads.
Ahh. Didn't know that; haven't seen any pictures. But I'm taking the train to Bal'more in a couple weeks so I'll check out Baltimore Penn Station for any signs of them...
Now only if Marc would run trains on weekends, especially on the Brunswig Line which is the closest to my place 22 miles away in Martinsburg
That was it Dan, i.e. a HHP-8 vs. the box cab AEM7s.
I've also been amazed at how M-N will use a lot of CT equip. on Harlem & Hudson lines. I guess what ever comes out of the Croton-Harmon goes with the next train they make up, regardles of who bought it.
Mr rt__:^)
If you look closely at the New haven Division cars, some will say Conn DOT others will say MTA, they run mixed.
I called my contact at MARC. MARC has purchased 6 High Horsepower (HHP) motors. They took delivery of one last week and is now being tested. He didn't know where it was.
Next, the top speed for AEM 7 electric motors is about 130. MARC I and II equipment is limited to 110 mph but MARC 3 (double deckers) can go to 125 mph. They aren't permitted east of Bergen interlocking, which is why they can't go to New York over the busy Thanksgiving period. The MARC III's ride exceptionally well, better than Amfleet, NEC Direct (or whatever the equipment is called this month).
Michael
For those that wanted to know lots of detail about the Oak Point & Harlem River yards (yes there are two, it's not two names for the same one) as well as the recently completed "Oak Point Link" pick up a copy of RailPace, December contains a very nice article with a one page map.
BTW, I remember a worker THERE who also volunteers at Shoreline that asked me about this subject. I thought there was just one yard & told him the same ... opps.
Mr rt__:^)
Though well intended, I get the impression that the title of Eric's original post Why more minorities should be railfans may be off the point.
Some people collect stamps, or coins, or dolls, because they love those things. But I've met some who just like to collect stuff, and later decide to specialize in one particular thing. And then they may specialize in a sub-area, like coin collectors who specialize in Bust Halves or Half Dimes.
But just about every railfan I've ever known is "organic." They never decided to be railfans. Likewise, if their main interest is BMT or IRT or Insull Interurbans, they came to the interest more or less naturally.
The problem (especially when you're younger) is that railfanning is a pretty intense hobby and is not "cool" in just about any social or racial group. The young railfan may have to deal with the disapproval of peers and even parents. Hey, even their own kids. My older daughter (who likes riding trolleys and trains) sees yet another train picture on my monitor and says "Are you looking at trains AGAIN."
I think that any person who wants to be a railfan IS a railfan. The question is why they don't participate if they ARE railfans.
Paul your words will be etched in bronze on a plaque I will present to you at the next ERA meeting....;-D (uh, I also have a bridge to sell you BTW).
Well said!
BMTman
PS You know I HAD to tease you!
excellent point, the fact that its not a common interest can make it discouraging, but for some reason this board DOES exist and is abounding every day in numerous posts. When someone tells me I'm the only one in the world that has my interest I give them a link to this board and they are silenced.
To anybody who complains about my being a railfan -this is something that cannot be found to be offensive to anyone regardless of age, race, religion, creed, national origin, gender, or sexual orientation. If anyone even thinks about criticizing me for looking at trains, I can write them off as being in need of a life of their own, and then forgetting them. How this pasttime can be a problem for anyone is beyond me, so for those who do not like it, you lose, I win.
Most in my family certainly don't understand why I ride the subways just for fun, or spend SO MUCH TIME at that TROLLEY museum.
To which I say, riding with some friends gives me great pleasure & getting dirty at Branford is a labor of love. If you're going to only come this way once, might a well enjoy the trip !
Mr rt__:^)
Thrston - I get the same from my family. I just smile and say that my wife is lucky that she's not a "sports widow" and that she never has to worry about me being on the streets - I'm either above them or below them :)
--Mark
I happen to be into stamp (global) and coin (20th century US) collecting myself. Not to mention American Flyer trains.
I enjoy coin collecting and lately have done a little rag picking(Paper money) The Bureau of Printing and Engraving has had some nice offering recently and in the not ot distant past. I find it a nice way to build an inheritence for the fruit of my loins.
avid
I remember hearing that someone proposed converting one of the two existing LIRR brances through SE Queens to subway service. Does anyone recall which branch and who proposed it? Does any one what became of that proposal?
It was the Atlantic Branch, south of Jamaica Station to Springfield Gardens/Laurelton.
I believe the plan was to extend the line from the present Jamaica Center onto the LIRR line. Some comments have been made here in SubTalk about how the tracks extend and curve beyond the platforms at the Jamaica Center station nowadays, apparently this was done with the eventual LIRR conversion/connection in mind.
In 1968 the MTA proposed a major expansion of the subway system. The plan was to build the new Archer Ave Line with two seperate routes. One from Queens Blvd(the current E Line) and one replacing the Jamaica BMT el (today's J/Z Lines). The Queens Blvd line was to take over the Atlantic branch of the LIRR (today's Loucst Manor,Laurelton and Rosedale Stations via the Far Rockaway,Long Beach and West Hempstead Branches currently operate there). I have been told that the tunnel was built from Parsons Blvd to South Rd and under South Rd to near the LIRR tracks. I believe there is a church just east of the tracks. Since I now live in South Florida someone needs to confirm this but I believe there is a vent near that church. This part of the LIRR was to be taken over for Subway Service.
Again I am not 100 % sure
Thank You
I think you're right!
Vision 2020 Committed Projects
Highlights:
- The routing of the NCS from Penn Station to Broad Street (misnamed "NERL MOS 1"), with a MAP! Looks like they've given up on the idea of using the branch that parallels route 21 to extend to Clifton.
- A picture of the HBLR terminal at Hoboken as it will look when it's fully constructed
- Completion date estimates for all of the above
Thanks for the link. I have no time so I just skimmed through it.
I guess the HBLR's MOS1-2-3 construction will be quite a time before completion!
today i retried the attempted ride of the R-143. bording around 3 oclock and 14th union. my opinion about the R-143 vs. its R-142A cousin is that it seems far (10 times to the 10th power) more better than the Rushed R-142A. it was smooth from acceleratiion to stopping. it was quieter than the R-142A. build quality seemed suprisingly excellent from a car coming from Kawasaki. so far i was impressed with the machine.
Design wise, i truly didn't like the exterior style. i am not too fond of the vacuum canister design and the small windows. missing extra cab window negated its style even more, but earned it its nickname by me, i call it The Pirate. it looked like a shortened R-68A with a black mask at the front. of course it didn't strike much attention because it looked soo similar to the R-142A. the Front end fiber glass construction, though looks nice, screams fragile and is low tech. most new rolling stock do not use fiberglass because it is harder to replace ( what i have heard).
the Interior is more tasteful than the R-142A, also seems more durable and less prone to vandalism. the gray gave it a nice look and tint along with the cream colored ceiling. the styling was impressive. less parts used for paneling gave it a solid look and enhanced its quiet ride, on the other hand the interior made the R-40 series look brighter. the styling looked like Siemens or Bombardier designed it instead of Kawasaki because of the way most of the panel looked.
the Anouncements felt more lifelike than the R-142A however it wasn't loud enough. As mister Pirman, mister Logan, and the rest of the train fanatics drueled over the train i studied the riding manerisms of the train. nothing different. just like the R-142A. it didn't take the rails to well even though it was way more comefortable than the R-40 series. the breaking was the same loud groaning squeaking, and the traction motor did the same loud whining 3 times which makes me grind my teeth at times. however, the train wasted blasted fast, very impressive.
Overall, i welcome the new R-143 with warm open arms. it is a nice ride and more comfortable than the other older cars. in many ways it mocked the R-142A making it feel like nothing new, but it shows promising performance than what crappy one that the R-142A delivered. but, it is too early to tell if it is reliable. but as usual a new machine will fall apart in someways before it comes reliable. it is a no niggling, no nonsense train that i as a non kawasaki fan have grown to love. R-143 makes the R-142A feel in some ways like a mistake. however i wish the carbody was more R-32 inspired.
Oh well...the Kawasaki R143 and its smaller R142A basically share most of the 'tech.' Apart from the dreams of CBTC, I do hope Kawasaki will get serious and make it go. Peter
Looking at the pictures, "The Pirate" sound goods to me.
I can't wait until I get a chance to ride the R143. I am hoping for next Wednesday to ride it and also get a chance to ride on the J/M/E Lines as well.
If anyone is working on the J/M/L/E Lines Wednesday Dec. 12 let me know by Email and maybe meet up somewhere.
I actually studied the mechanics of the train when it was in testing and today, aside from "drooling" over it.
I didn't see fit to study it as it is basically the twin to the R-142A, the only reason its a smoother ride is because its a heavier car, but the undercarriage and specifications (EXCEPT for the CBTC Mechanics) are that of the R-142A.
Compare specs sheets and you'll see like I have!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
# 1 new " no railfan window " ...JUNK ..!!
#2 my challenge to you still STANDS TALL ....
your westcoast transit photographer....BEST...vs ...MY WORST......
transit photography ........ i { whip will him hands down } .....lol!!!
cone on !! lets git' it' oooon' big time !!!! .............lol.....!!!
You know what, I'm sick of this, Save this shit for e-mail or a post of it's subject, thank you!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I know, the same kind of statement (bitching about the lack of a railfan window) gets really stale after a while.
I stand ready for his challenge about his SUPERIOR west coast transit photographer he said could wip me !!!
put up or .............!!!
Yes, why don't you shut up? We've been through this non railfan window = junk hundreds of times and it's just getting silly the number of threads that are punctuated at random intervals by southern california transit system (salaamallah) whining about the same, usually irrelevent, fact that the new subway cars are rubbish because the don't have railfan windows.
Grow up.
-Robert King
if you stop responding he will stop
no, I think he can probably continue forever, even if unprovoked.
well let him continue and save your fingers for more meaningful posts.
look you may have your New Junk that you love ... Fine !! but it aint no fun like the good old days .....
I was calling TREVORS bluff & he backed down .......lol!@!!
again i stand ready for the challenge that trevor said to me that his westcoast tranist photographer can whip me ......!!
lol !!! big time !!! & dont slime away & hide & say he did not say that to me on a thread here ......lol !!
Hell no !! U were the one who said your WEST_COAST-transit photographer could whip me in bus & rail transit photography !!
then when i put the CHALLENGE up- to you and accepted your offer. A WESTCOAST TRANSIT PHOTOGRAPHY duel .....
U back down !!! ...........................ha ha ha ha ha ha ......lol............!!!........aint dat right ???................oh yea .....
oh yea !!! ..............
Grow Up and Shut Up.
the one who needs to grow up is the one ( trevor ) who ""back downs" after HE said his weatcoast transit photographer could whip me
in rail & bus transit photography !! Now I accept HIS challenge HE ( trevor ) BACKS DOWN in defeat ...!!!
who is......... ( @#$#%&^&*^& ) .....who now ???.........
the one who needs to grow up is the one ( trevor ) who ""back downs" after HE said his westcoast transit photographer could whip me
in rail & bus transit photography !! Now I accept HIS challenge HE ( trevor ) BACKS DOWN in defeat ...!!!
who is......... ( @#$#%&^&*^& ) .....who now ???.........
if you don't respond then he will stop
This guy is either great at winding everyone up intentionally with an extremely sarcastic albeit irritating sense of humour or he's just a really really sad b*****d!!! I suspect in view of his tenacity on the "railfan" subject I suspect that he is probably the latter. Shame on NYCTA for not considering the feelings of transit fans in not designing in a railfan window!!!
again remember you posted that i did not know how BAD your westcoast transit photographer is & i had better watch out !!
gee i am scared stiff !!!
so much so.....lol!!!.... I responded with a CHALLENGE to you & your "westcoast representive of superior railfan westcoast photography' So I could win hands down with EASE ... !!! ....lol !!!
again remember you posted that i did not know how BAD your westcoast transit photographer is & i had better watch
out !!
gee i am scared stiff !!!
so much so.....lol!!!.... I responded with a CHALLENGE to you & your "westcoast representive of superior railfan westcoast photography' So I could win hands down with EASE ... !!! ....lol !!!
@..... response to ""T -Dirive Crusr"".....threads......
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cool. where can they be found?
Call up to Kawasaki or even e-mail then, they'll gladly send you copies!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
really? i tried that and they gave me a hard time
Same squealing brakes, same rough ride, same loud pickup, fiberglass bulkheads. Sounds like a chip off the old block to me.
I've learned my lessons from standing on platforms for upwards of an hour waiting for the R-142(A) last year. This time I'll just wait for the lion's share of the L line (or for that matter, the BMT Eastern Division) before I'll take a closer look.
I rode the train yesterday by sheer coinceidence. I only wanted to see the rebuilt Metropolitan-Lorimer station and ran right into the new train. You're right, it reminds me more of the new trains on the 6 line than anything else. The doors though are a little smaller and curves outward, more similar to the R-44, 46 and 68's. It also has some funky bar on the ceiling, does anyone know what purpose it's supposed to serve? I was very impressed. I love the new train.
I also saw the new subway map on the train. All I can say about the map is that I feel very sorry for tourists who want to ride the subway on or after 12/17/2001, particularly the G Train.
The purpose of 'the funky bar on the ceiling' is to attract taller passengers to place themselves in the middle of the car when there are higher numbers of riders (rush hour.) CI Peter
Thanks for the info. I guess taller people will no longer feel oppressed on subways.
Does the R143 have all those S/S monkey bars all over the place??
Yeah, it does, just like the new 6 train. From what I remember it has the "tall people" bars in the interior between doors and the more "traditional" bars near the lights. The bars though did not annoy me that much.
In his eulogy of Humphrey Bogart, Director John Huston said that "he (Bogart) didn't take Bogart the man too seriously but that he held Bogart the Actor in the highest reverence." The same thing holds true to me in regards to my being a writer of transit. I hope to one day so elevate my craft to win a Pulitzer Prize and forever make railfanning a respected field of study the world over.
Eric D. Smith
Mr. Controversy? Now, can we move on?
Story here
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Washington's subway system will stage its first chemical warfare drill on Wednesday, nearly two months after a gun-toting passenger triggered a toxic scare by spraying liquid around a train.
The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, which moves 600,000 people around the capital by train each day, will run the simulation with local fire and ambulance services at 1 p.m. EST at the Smithsonian Metro station on the system's blue and orange lines.
``It's the first time we have done an emergency drill which simulates the release of a chemical agent,'' Metro spokeswoman Lisa Farbstein told Reuters.
In October, less than a month after the Sept. 11 attacks and with fears of a biological or chemical attack running high, a fare-dodging passenger fired a gun and sprayed liquid on a subway platform and inside a train.
Tests later showed the substance was a nontoxic carpet cleaner, but Metro officials came under fire for allowing the train to pick up passengers from five more stations before sealing it off as a crime scene.
The release says 12:15 AM, which to me is more logical.
I saw a post here about the R-143 schedule for us so we can catch it. Problem is, it started out fine but was confusing at the end.
We would appreciate it if anyone can post an R-143 schedule minus the military time. Thank you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hi, friends...
I want to quickly introduce myself. My name is Anthony, and I grew up in The Bronx in the shade of the White Plains Road elevated line. I like this site very much, and I love reading all the posts, it's nice to see that I'm not alone in my NYC subway obsession :).
Which brings me to the point of my post- I have been a subway freak my whole life, and believe me, we ARE a minority, most of the people in my life who have found out that about me, think it's odd at best, downright crazy at worst.
J-TrainTony
NYCSMF thinks your..
//Crazy
j/k ,Hysterical laughter.
HEY!!!!
I'm a subway MAP fan too!!!
Love the 67 and 68 ones with KK, NX, RJ, JJ, etc.
:)
mph..
very hard to come by...
I'm sticking with collecting the new Ones..stuffing them in my closet, letting it build and build, then one day watch while my closet falls into the basement.
Don't worry, you're in good company...
I can count about 90 railfans that I've met in the past few years, most are SubTalkers. They also include fans from far and near (London, Boston, Denver, Calif., Minn., etc.). So, check the coming events area of this site & join us on a "Field Trip" or at a ERA or UTC meeting.
Mr rt__:^)
Hello all, as promised here's part 2 of my trip to NYC...
My parents and I visited ground zero early Saturday morning. Seeing it first hand really brought it home, how anyone could justify killing thousands of people like that is just beyond words. Well, now I saw and I won't forget. Again my condolences to all those who lost loved ones in this tragedy.
As well, my family and I attended the Canada Loves New york rally at the Roseland ballroom Saturday afternoon, which was the purpose of our visit. I was happy to hear that the current estimates are about 20000 Canadians showed up in NYC over the weekend to show our support to New Yorkers. WE ALL LOVE NEW YORK!!!!!!!!
Anyways, now for the railfanning...
Most of Saturday was spent touring and going to the rally, however my parents and I did take the subway to get between places. We took a (Q) of R68's from 34th Street to 14th-Union Square and a (4) of R62's to Fulton Street to get to ground zero. I got my first glimpse of an R142 (R142A? whichever runs on the 6) leaving 14th Street. I love the sound of those AC engines!!!! The T1's in Toronto have similar sounding AC engines, but I like the R142 sounds better!! I also got to see moving platforms for the first time, I've never seen those before! Does anyone know of any other transit authorities that use them? The O-Train here in Ottawa has gap fillers at all the stations, but they stay extended all day while the trains are running and are manually turned up at night to allow freight trains to use the line.
Coming back up we got a (5)-bird at Fulton Street all the way up to GCT. That train was flying up the express!! Much better than on Friday when the local kept catching up to it!!
After doing some sight seeing around 5th Avenue and Central Park, we got a (C) of R38's from 59th to 81st to see the George Harrison memorial, and a (C) of R32's back down to 50th for the rally. I find the R38's give a slightly smoother and quieter ride (but only slightly), and I find they look a little better than the R32's, with the corrugations going only halfway up rather than all the way to the roof. However, I like them both, especially because they can both really move!!
Later that evening I managed to get another hour of railfanning in while my parents took a rest at the hotel. I took an (F) at 34th Street intending to go up to Lex, only to remember there was a GO in effect that was causing the (F)'s to go via 63rd Street. Not having a lot of time and therefore wanting to stay in Manhattan, I decided against going up the Queens Blvd line and instead got off and took a (D) of R68's to 59th Street, where I got on a very crowded (1) of R62's that stopped in the tunnel a lot. The C/O said that (1),(2) and (3)'s were all using the local track at 42nd-TSQ... were the (3)'s running on the local track only at Times Square or throughout the rest of the line as well?
From there I got the shuttle over to GCT, a (4) of R62's that again ran very quickly down the express to 14th Street, and finally an (N) back to 34th Street. The local stations on Broadway are under construction (I gather from the tileless cement walls at these stations), are they going to restore the original look of these stations?
Anyways, that was Saturday... tomorrow in part 3, my adventure to Stillwell-Coney Island...
"I got my first glimpse of an R142 (R142A? whichever runs on the 6)"
Yep, its the R142A that runs on the 6, and is built by Kawasaki. You can find the R142 on the #2, and it was built by Bombardier. -Nick
Both express tracks were blocked for station rehabs at both 42nd and 72nd this weekend. That forced expresses onto the local tracks southbound from 72 to 42 and northbound from 42 to 96. (At 42, the switches are south of the station. At 72, the switches are on the arriving side of the station -- that is, north of the station for southbound trains and south of the station for northbound trains.)
The southbound 3 ran express from 96 to 72 and from 34 to 14. The northbound 3 ran express only from 14 to 34.
I was on a southbound 2 Sunday morning that was delayed for a minute or two at 59 thanks to the congestion.
Both express tracks were blocked for station rehabs at both 42nd and 72nd this weekend. That forced expresses onto the local tracks southbound from 72 to 42 and northbound from 42 to 96. (At 42, the switches are south of the station. At 72, the switches are on the arriving side of the station -- that is, north of the station for southbound trains and south of the station for northbound trains.)
The southbound 3 ran express from 96 to 72 and from 34 to 14. The northbound 3 ran express only from 14 to 34.
I was on a southbound 2 Sunday morning that was delayed for a minute or two at 59 thanks to the congestion.
Just wondering that Packed downtown No.1 train you got on at 59 Street wasn't around 6:55-7:00PM Saturday ?
If so you may have been on my train because it was packed do to a earlier delay in service and we came to a dead stop at 59 Street and stop and go to Times Square.
Actually, it was around that time!! I did my railfanning between about 6:30 and 7:30 on Saturday. The train waited for a bit at 59 Street and then it was stop and go all the way to Times Square like you said.
You must of been on my train because there was a Stalled train at 157 Street that cases a 20 Minutes delay in service leaveing 242 Street. I left 12 Minutes after the first train at 6;21PM and getting to Times Square 6:59PM.
I keeped on making my announcement like this "Ladies and Gentleman we are being delayed do to Train Traffic ahead of us do to all No.1,2,3 trains running local from 72 Street to Times Square we should be moving shortly".
Yup, I was definitely on your train, I remember those announcements!!! Cool!!!!
Thats cool you did get to ride my train. You can't forget my style of announcements! Besides that hold up between 59 Street and Times Square the trip went well. They did however send that No.3 ahead local to 14 Street and then tailed behind another No.1 train below Chambers. If you ride my train again hopefully you will have a better ride next time with a lighter load and faster service.
Back around 81-82, I remember they started painting all the No. 2 trains white, supposedly to stop graffitti, which I at the time even thought was ill-advised....it was like giving them a CANVAS, fer christsake.
My question is, what other lines besides the 2, 3, and 5 got this paint job? I remember the 1 being rusty dirty MTA blue/silver, and the 4 being rusty dirty maroon, but what about the R27/30's and R16's?
Thanks.
//Thinking..
Um..
the 7 i suppose?
I seem to remember the 7 being baby blue and white (WF colors), till they got rebuilt.
Could be wrong, tho.
7's got some in MTA colors, most of them if not all were put in the non escaping White scheme before the current "Redbird" scheme took in effect in the late 80's.
The 7 too, eh?
Jeez *L*
But no IND/BMT cars??
I remember riding "M" trains in the late 80's painted green.
Nope...not on the M. The only green BMT/IND equipment in that era was the 110 rehabilitated R-10 cars, which ran exclusively on the C.
David
Some of the 7 Line stuff went from the light blue/white World's Fair colors to the MTA blue/silver. I'd say about 75 cars total, then they started doing them in solid white. I have photos at Corona Yard of all three color schemes together.
Me too!
I remember those days very well too. I lived, and still live today, three blocks west of the Burke Avenue #2 train station. Painting the cars white was a real MTA blunder. Talk about the TA shooting itself in the foot on this one. Within days of painting the cars white, the graffitti was back. White wasn't limited to just the 2, 3 and 5 lines. I saw it on the 1, 4 and 6 lines as well. You'll also find pictures on this web site showing the 7 and 42nd Street Shuttle trains running with white cars. I think the white scheme was only done on the IRT lines.
Thanks??
Burke Av, eh??
Know where The 3 Boys From Italy pizzeria is??
I'm from Cruger and Burke.
Yeah! I eat there often. Three Boys is still there. My home's on Bronx Park East and Adee, the big Adee Towers apartment house. Unfortunately, the Pearl Pharmacy, where I used to buy Trains magazine and which sold model railroad trains, is gone. I think they left early this year. Hoft's Lunchonette is also gone too.
I've been in North Carolina for 11 years, but still go up once a year for my NYC and NYC subway fix.
My family still lives in the neighborhood, my family has been in that neighborhood since the 20's. My mother STILL complains about Finast and Hoff's Ice Cream being gone :)
Remember the Cameo? The little social club off of Burke and Cruger?
I think the Cameo may have been before my time. I'm only 23. But even if it was still there, I don't know if I would have gone there.
I've been in North Carolina for 11 years...
Whereabouts? I'm from Bunn (Franklin County).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, cat...
I'm in Chapel Hill
Neighbors! (Well, almost.) Bunn is home and I still maintain a house there, but my job has had me in New Jersey for the past six years - a "temporary" assignment, so they said when I took it. So I have a house in Eatontown, NJ as well. My wife goes back and forth but I only get home a couple of times a year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Supposedly, the thought was, "Let's paint the cars white. That way we can get the graffiti off as soon as it's applied". Huh?!?
"Supposedly, the thought was, "Let's paint the cars white. That way we can get the graffiti off as soon as it's applied". Huh?!?
Uh....no not really. The first white car was a an R-33 or 36 stored in Corona yard. The idea was a "dare" for the graffitti artists to see if they would attack that car.
That was back in the days when the double fencing went up around the yards and vicious guard dogs patrolled the perimeter. Eventually, most of the IRT went white, they grafittied those cars anyway.
I also remember when TA chief John Simpson (not related to OJ or Homer!) came up with the brainstorm to fight grafitti on the IRT by painting the interiors tan and light brown. The paint used was latex ! I did say brainstorm, didn't I ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I recall some BMT cars painted white for "Beat Street" and stored @ Fresh Pond for a minute...And most of the 7 line also had this "Snow White" till 1984 when Kiley or Gunn decided to repaint then in our popular "redbird" getup.
I remember that this actually started on the Flushing line. This is around the time that the TA had dogs at the Corona Yard along with those fences with razor sharp wire. IIRC a single R-33 was painted white sort of as bait. After that full trains of R-33/36 were showing up on the Flushing and eventually the white paint scheme spread throughout the IRT. I didn't like the white paint scheme because the cars looked terrible once they got dirty.
Wayne
The 7 definitely had the white cars. I have a "Newkirk" post card purchased at Shoreline that shows a full train set. The card gives credit for the pic to Glenn Smith and dated 3/24/84.
There are some pix right here on nycsubway.org:
www.nycsubway.org/slides/r3336wf/r36-9647.jpg
www.nycsubway.org/slides/r3336wf/r36-9657b.jpg
That's the truth. Once they aged a little they reminded me of Garbage trucks, White, but soiled!
avid
This was the single ugliest look any subway car has ever obtained. And yes, for the opportunity they provided to grafiti writers it might as well have been looseleaf paper.
:v) Andrew
Actually, the cars did NOT look bad when they were freshly painted, or even freshly cleaned.
Supposedly that white paint had some graffiti resistance to it, when run through a wash rack the graffiti would come off. Well, if they washed them once in a while, it would -- but once the graffiti paint cured, it stayed.
The wash rack or the cured paint didn't ruin the grafitti resistance properties that much...One real trick was applying some paint thinner
on the area before the vandals "bombed" the trains.
Oh, I think it was pretty ugly even without the grafiti.
The World's Fair and Redbird looks were/are much more attractive.
:-) Andrew
Most of the cars on the 6 line seemed to have it when I photographed them in 1980.
Something happened to me today on the LIRR that I wouldn't have expected in a million years. I boarded the 5:41 to Ronkonkoma at Penn Station, taking the window seat in a three-across. Someone soon took the aisle seat. A young woman then sat in the middle seat - and, to my extreme astonishment, turned to ask me if I had enough room with her there! I told her that in my several years of riding the train, she was the very first person ever to ask that question. I would have been less surprised if Elvis or Bigfoot had plunked down in the middle seat.
The real odd part - the woman was very small, probably not much over 100 pounds.
wooow...hmmm Peter *wink* just kidding
Stuart, RLine86Man
On the topic of the 5:41 train. I was on that train once, IT WAS PACKED TO SARDINES. It's a 3 connection train, Greenpoint, OB and one other. But shizat, I was amazed!
On the topic of the 5:41 train. I was on that train once, IT WAS PACKED TO SARDINES. It's a 3 connection train, Greenpoint, OB and one other. But shizat, I was amazed!
Greenport's actually the only connection, and I doubt if more than a few per cent of the people boarding at Penn make that connection. The train has only three stops - Hicksville, Central Islip and Ronkonkoma. Hardly anyone gets off at Hicksvile and only a modest number at Central Islip. I'd guess that at least 80% of the riders end their trip at Ronkonkoma.
Peter, if you weren't married already I'd say MARRY THAT WOMAN! (That was a rare breed of a Lassy).
BMTman
The funny thing is it is too common to see small women like that paired up with big, tall guys in marriage. That really irritates this small guy!
Also on the bus big people always want to sit next to me while all the cute women only sit next to other women. Often I'll just put my bag or coat down on the seat next to me, I know it's rude but I don't like being squashed. That's why I like NYCT buses with the single seats on one side.
On the LIRR it's best to avoid the three seaters facing eachother (I think they are near the door entrances) people always like to put their feet across.
So here's a n interesting question. Where do most people prefer to sit on the train or bus. On the bus I like to sit in the back near the window. On the train, well if there's no railfan window I'll take any window seat, I prefer to face forward. I do get dizzy sometimes in those backwards seats.
Also on the bus big people always want to sit next to me while all the cute women only sit next to other women. Often I'll just put my bag or coat down on the seat next to me, I know it's rude but I don't like being squashed. That's why I like NYCT buses with the single seats on one side.
Much the same happens on the LIRR too. In one pair of seats, there'll be two women each of whom weighs maybe 120 pounds, tops, and they've got ample room; in the next seat pair, there'll be two 250-pound men, jammed in with hardly any room to breathe.
I guess I shouldn't introduce you to my wife....
[Where do most people prefer to sit on the train or bus.]
With the LIRR's 2-3 seating, there seems to be a definite pattern in the way the seats fill up. The first to go is usually the window seat on the 2-seat side, followed by the window seat on the 3-seat side. Then, the aisle seat on the 3-seat side, the aisle seat on the 2-seat side and finally the middle seat on the 3-seat side.
By the way, today I rode the entire trip from Mineola to Penn Station at the railfan window. For once, the train operator didn't have his door open, as they usually do!
The same pattern of "fill-up" occurs on the 2-3 seats on the MBTA Commuter Rail. Smart passengers know, however, that on every train there is a car with 2-2 seats. They are the 500- and 1500-series coaches that have the lav. The cars are usually at the end (1500-series cars are control cab cars; 500-series cars are trailers). The 700- and 1700-series bilevels (OK, Sarge, trilevels) also have 10 single seats per car (2 at each end on each of the upper and lower levels, and 1 on each end of the entrance door level; all adjacent to the stair cases).
Speaking of the 80's, I remember seeing the ("V" 6th Ave.) on a R32 rollsign in about 87....anyone else remember seeing that??
Me and my friend talked about it for two days!!!
There are many lines that are on rollsigns that either did exist, or might exist in the future. Yes, the MTA does know how to plan! :-) -Nick
"Speaking of the 80's, I remember seeing the ("V" 6th Ave.) on a R32 rollsign in about 87....anyone else remember seeing that??"
Yes, the sign says:
(V) VIA 6TH AVE (The V is an orange bullet)
Bill "Newkirk"
Looks like a half rolled "N" to me. The right leg looks perpindickyouliar.
avid
R32
For those who can't do <tt>iframe</tt>, click <a href="http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/29/23.jpg">here</a>. The real image is located at http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/29/23.jpg, but click on the link before going there directly.
R40
For those who can't do <tt>iframe</tt>, click <a href="http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/29/26.jpg">here</a>. The real image is located at http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/29/26.jpg, but click on the link before going there directly.
Thats much better! Was this from abortion Saterday?
avid
[Was this from abortion Saterday?]
I don't know what this means, but these pictures were taken on September 8, 2001.
Interesting how they knew for many years that the V would run on 6th Avenue (Greller's book, pub;lished in 1993 or so, said the same thing, and has a pic of a Slant with an orange V), but didn't seem to be sure wheter it would be local, express, or where its exact terminals might be. So rather than describing it as "6th Avenue Local" (actually, that would be IRT style), or as "Queens Blvd/6th Avenue" or "Concourse/6th Avenue", they chose the truthful, but incomplete "via 6th Avenue", having already settled on orange as the color.
In 1996 or so, I saw an R32 with a yellow W showing, just like Mr. Greenberger's V sign- I don't know what text accompanied the bullet.
Well, not to be a wiseacre, but since it was in an orange circle, what else line COULD it have been besides 6th?
Wonder why they didn't print "Ave of the Americas" rather than 6th?...[slightly kidding :)]
Trevor's new R-143 Pics are up!
And for those interested I have a Quick Time Movie of it in motion at Union Square, I will send it to you if you e-mail me at metrod3700@cs.com
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Trevor, You've out done yourself again. Thanks for sharing. I particularly enjoyed the R-32/R-143 shot & made a copy for my own use.
Mr rt__:^)
Thank You Thurston!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Thanks for the pix guys. Looks nice.
Well worth the wait! Thanks Dave and Trevor. I'm gonna Email you for the MPEG!
Thanks, Trevor and Dave! She's pretty ... and from what I heard from testing, it's not at all the IRT experience either.
Nice shots -- I like the interior "retro" look, minus the grip bars and the digital bells and whistles, of course. Looks more like a cousin of the R-32/42 series than of the R-142s at first glance (and are the seat angles better than the 142s as well?)
Trevor,
NICE PICS!!!! :-) Thanks for getting them up so quickly, Dave!! -Nick
i am not knocking the good pics ... digital photography is the big bomb .......
i am asking why every new piece of ( not made in the usa built ) rail transit cars HAVE to all have transverse cabs !!!
whatsuuuuup wit' dat'...???
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
OPTO
Shawn.
you said ...
"I've said it before and I'll say it again.
OPTO
Shawn. ""
& I say TERRIBLE !! 100% agreement with your post !!!
The MTA ordered it that way due to OPTO considerations. The R143 would have transverse cabs because it's in the MTA design specifications regardless of who it's built by, be it Kawasaki or the Yankee-Doodle Railcar Co. division of Stars & Stripes Inc.
-Robert King
OPTO doesn't require transverse cabs. Video cameras and monitors (surely not too high-tech for the R-143!) would have done the job just as well.
"i am asking why every new piece of ( not made in the usa built ) rail transit cars HAVE to all have transverse cabs !!!
whatsuuuuup wit' dat'...???
To prevent you personally from having a railfan window view out the front. I'm serious. Check the specs. They say:
"All cabs shall be transverse in construction so as to prevent the Californian Salaam from getting a good view out the front."
And to think you just thought it was a general trend and not a conspiracy?
All kidding aside, it makes total sense from an O&M point of view to have transverse cabs. Subways aren't designed for railfans.
MATT-2AV
Where's the Beef Trevor, where IS the Beef?
I can't see any peeeeeeeepole!
Where's the beef?
avid
hidden bhind the blocked away view of the ""TRANSVRSE CAB""......that everybody LOVES so much more than railfan window
equipped rail transit cars ........lol!!!
There is a love amount of window for you to see out the front, JUST like the R-142s!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
> There is a love amount of window
Uh, what?
Oops MAJOR MISTAKE!
I was responding to a IM the same time I was typing that response, that was supposed to be huge amount, not love amount, LOL!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Trevor's new R-143 Pics are up!
On that page: "A representative selection of images of the R142/R142A". I can guess where you took the layout for that page from :)
other than that, nice pics
Dave,
Thanks so much for putting up Trevor's new R-143 pictures. I was instantly struck by what an amazingly beautiful piece of machinery they are.
While beauty is subjective, I suspect that these cars will receive the same overwhelming warm reception from the general (non-railfan) public as the R-142 series.
You know, I believe these new cars are prompting the public to be discerning about their rolling stock for the first time. I now know of many other East Side commuters who will deliberately wait for the next train hoping it is "one of those new cars with the red bulls-eye", meaning of course an R-142. Of course, they don't know what an R-142 is, but they know a more comfortable ride.
Last summer, I brought a friend on the subway for the first time. They had many stereotypes and misconceptions, as well as reservations. Would it be full of grafiti and people sleeping in their own urine like the bad old days? Luckily for us, and southbound R-142 (6) pulls in to 96th Street station, and their first comments when boarding the train were: "Wow! This is nice!"
Time Out New York Magazine listed the R-142 as one of the best things about New York in their recent annual publication on the matter. I accidentally discarded my copy, and have been looking for their text and picture to share with he board.
Thanks so much again, and at first glance, these cars appear to be more good news for the commuter,
MATT-2AV
P.S.: What color is that LED display? It looks pink on my screen.
Red, like the R142's.
I'd have preferred full-color LCDs, but what can you do? At least it's not pink as I had thought,
MATT-2AV
Very cool! Thanks for sharing.
Will the R-143s, as they come in, be tested on the Sea Beach in the same way that the R-142(A)s are being tested along the Dyre Ave line?
--Mark
Now that would make NO sense. But knowing the MTA, prolly yes, sadly.
I've used the Herald Square baby MVM's (I forget the proper term -- I'm referring to the little ones that don't take cash) to "trade in" cards.
I tried to trade in a card a block away at 34/7 but the mini-MVM I used didn't offer the option.
You can no longer "trade-in" cards via the MVM's.
Peopel had found a way to add value to an empty card w/o putting money into the machine. As a result the MTA removed the option. Perhaps it will be restored one day if the proper program can be written.
If you want to trade in then you have to use the token booth method.
When the new mini-MVM's were first introduced at 34/6, trade-ins were available. (This was well after the feature was removed from the full-size MVM's.)
I guess someone realized that the programs had not been changed.
Vending machines make more money by 'forced sales.' Put in a buck for a 75 cent candy bar (that cost 23 cents) and you can't get your money back if you change your mind. Stinks, won't take TA Revenue Maintainer job but at least you can transfer at the booth your credit. CI Peter
Visit your friendly neighborhood station agent in the booth and we will trade in your cards!
I have a recurring problem with Metrocards. About 20% of the time, when I use it on a bus and then transfer to another bus, I get a "READ ERR". Fortunately, this seems to be common enough that the driver just waves me onto the bus.
After that point, the card still works fine on the subway. But even if I use it twice (and thus re-write both of the volatile tracks) it still won't work on a bus.
So, I go to the booth and say "this card doesn't work on buses any more" and the agent usually looks at me like I'm a space alien or something. Sometimes they'll exchange it without further comment, sometimes I have to go into a long discussion of how it doesn't work on buses any more.
This has happened at least a half dozen times (I don't ride the buses all that often). It isn't the same bus (it's happened at least on the M14, the M34, and the M5). It happened to two other passengers who got on at the same stop I did and transferred to the same bus as me, so it seems that some bus fareboxes damage all cards inserted in them in some way.
Are there bus fareboxes out there that are eating cards? Is there anything being done to track down the problem and take those boxes out of service? Depending on what exactly the farebox is doing to break the card, I assume that there should be some history, either on the card or in the farebox, of where the card was used.
Is there some program in place in the booths to send cards with oddball problems to a central location for failure analysis? I know I could mail my card in instead of exchanging it in at the booth, but that inconveniences me with no guarantee that the people who receive it would do anything other than issue me a new one (no analysis of the problem).
Are there bus fareboxes out there that are eating cards?
I had one bus where clearly the farebox wasn't reading anything. The driver let everyone try, every card rejected, and he sighed and then let everyone pass in for free.
We agents at the booths are suppoded to clean the turnstile heads ar the beginning of our tours. How often do bus drivers have to use a cleaning card on their fare boxes?
I don't think this is a cleaning issue. Normally, when that is the problem, the card goes "zoop-zoop-zoop" in and out of the slot a number of times. Plus, the subway turnstiles have no problem reading the card (and writing it), yet no matter how many times I use it in the subway, it will reject in any bus. It's like the control track is being damaged. Hmmm. The next time it happens, I'll run the card through some developer and see if in fact there's a problem with the control track. For some examples, click here.
Terry, for the benefit of the technically challenged, could you explain what we're looking at?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Apparently, a visual representation of the magnetic patterns on the metrocard. So it's serial, one bit wide.
In the "old days" of video tape recording (2" and 1" open-reel tapes) it was important to see when the heads were starting to wear down, and other irregularities in the info the heads were writing. So companies produced "tape developer" which was incredibly fine ferrous particles in a rapidly-evaporating solution. You'd brush it on or dunk the tape in it, wait for it to dry, and look at the results. It also works fine on mag-stripe cards like the Metrocard. You can see the thin stripe, which is written once when the card is coded - it contains the card lot number, serial number, and expiration date - the same info printed on the back of the card. Then there are two fatter tracks, each half as long. Those contain the transient information (card type, current value, etc.) and are written in an alternating manner (front/back/front/back/etc.).
Thanks. I'm less in the dark, at least!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Terry I beg to differ with you.
1. All the R/W Heads at the Turnstiles were changed a year or so ago. Meanwhile the TA/Cubic said the R/W Heads in the bus Fareboxes were just fine, so they are still the originals.
2. The R/W Heads in the buses do get dirty. There is a pad that you use to go "zoop-zoop-zoop". We can also shove a wand down there with some alcohol on it or even try a little paint thinner (the latter we use for gum, etc.).
The heads cost over $200, so we do a lot of zoop zoop zooping at this depot.
Final point, do the fareboxes eat cards, they sure do. It's usally a 80 cent O-ring. Again at this depot we try to change them BEFORE they snap.
Mr rt__:^)
Ok, but I still don't see how the bus farebox is doing something which makes the card unreadable by buses but still working in the subway, even after both volatile data tracks are re-written by the subway turnstiles (by using the card twice). At that point, there shouldn't be anything left on the card that was written by the bus.
There is no physical damage to the card and the encoding is still OK - if I used the card on the first bus which trashed it, and the second bus gave "READ ERR", then when I go to the subway I get "XFER OK" and use the card for a couple days on the subway, then I go back to a bus and get "READ ERR" again.
>>> I still don't see how the bus farebox is doing something which makes the card unreadable by buses but still working in the subway, even after both volatile data tracks are re-written by the subway turnstiles <<<
This is only a guess since I have no first hand knowledge of the system, but it is possible that the bus read heads are reading left or right of the subway read head by a small amount, and the part of the card being damaged is just the part read by bus read heads. In the early days of computing when floppy disks were really floppy, it was not unusual to find a diskette written on one drive that could be read by another drive, but the same diskette written by the second drive could not be read by the first one.
Tom
Could be, but I don't think it is likely - the volatile data is a pretty wide swath (because customers might lift the card up while swiping in the subway) and it shouldn't be writing on the read-only control track. But I'll have to develop one of these bad cards and see what is going on.
>>> the volatile data is a pretty wide swath <<<
That supports my theory. Although the write heads write a wide swath, the read heads probably are much narrower to take into account the possible side to side movement of the card. If the first bus read head damaged the medium, i.e. left a path the width of the read head which would no longer accept data, the write head would still write the data on both sides of the "furrow" of damaged medium. If the turnstile reader reads parallel to the furrow, it will read ok, but subsequent bus readers with the heads directly over the furrow will have read errors. BTW, do you swipe the card on the bus, or insert it into a fare box reader? As you pointed out, swiping requires some tolerance since slightly different ways of holding the card could cause the read heads to read a different area of the medium. If it is inserted, the read head will be much more likely to go over the exact same area.
Tom
BTW, do you swipe the card on the bus, or insert it into a fare box reader?
You insert. Box swallows card, thinks about it, regurgitates it, and in due course shows you how much is left on the card. Noticeable delay (1-2 seconds?) before this last step, however, which has always baffled me.
>>> Noticeable delay (1-2 seconds?) before this last step, however, which has always baffled m